Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 11:29:23 (GMT)
From: Jun 17, 2000 To: Jun 23, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Zelda -:- Sumsing velly stlange goin on here-lost several -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 09:27:13 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- I think you might be accessing a cached version -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:29:55 (GMT)
__ Brianless -:- Is it sane or insane? (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:17:59 (GMT)

Selene -:- ok it's late etc.. but WHY do premies LIE? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:55:48 (GMT)
__ Charlie -:- ok it's late etc.. but WHY do premies LIE? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 08:06:41 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- hi Charlie. It's just odd when -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:26:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Oliver -:- Speaking of email mates... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:55:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- oh did I start threads? -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:27:14 (GMT)

Keith -:- Jim's position on free speech. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:20:25 (GMT)
__ Keith -:- Jim's position on free speech. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:10:31 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Jim's position on free speech. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 18:54:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- Except in extreme cases. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:56:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- IMO, Keith, you ae an extreme case -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:04:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- IMO, Keith, you ae an extreme case -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 22:10:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Exactly keith, that's why democracy is more honest -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 23:03:59 (GMT)
__ __ annie -:- regarding free speech on this forum -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:21:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- regarding free speech on this forum -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:14:39 (GMT)
__ __ Brian -:- Jim's position on free speech. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:10:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- free speech. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:43:46 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Jim's position on free speech. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 08:07:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kiss my ass -:- To Anth The Fascist -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:01:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- To Anth The Fascist -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:43:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Kiss my ass -:- To Anth The Fascist -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:02:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- To Anth The Fascist -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:22:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kiss my ass -:- To Anth The Fascist with AL -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:42:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ (Sir) David -:- To Kiss my ass -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:26:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Another possibility -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:14:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Brianless -:- Dream on, David -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:36:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ (Sir) David -:- Ok let's not get too pedantic, Brianless and Mili -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:20:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Ok let's not get too pedantic, Brianless and Mili -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:44:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- How DARE you lecture anyone on free speech!!! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:51:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ (Sir) David -:- That's very true Mili -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:18:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- Kiss my ass Bjorn -Popeye etc.. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:18:50 (GMT)
__ __ premie lurker -:- Jim's position on free speech. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:25:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- regards Sean -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:45:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Jim's position on free speech. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:41:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sean -:- Jim's position on free speech. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:34:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- To Sean, FYI -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:58:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Sean's answer -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:33:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Regarding Jagdeo -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:35:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Regarding Jagdeo -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:51:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ So -:- Regarding Jagdeo -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:38:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JtF -:- Regarding Jagdeo/Wake Up -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:06:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ So -:- JtF, you are saying -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 07:35:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ (Sir) David -:- Regarding Jagdeo -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:41:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ So -:- what kind of thought - -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 11:04:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- ********JETHRO'S POST -- VERY IMPORTANT********* -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:02:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Never mind Jim... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:25:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- ********JETHRO'S POST -- VERY IMPORTANT********* -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 19:37:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- ********JETHRO'S POST -- VERY IMPORTANT********* -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 18:24:43 (GMT)

george s. -:- letter writing campaign -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:55:13 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- letter writing campaign -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:43:31 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- letter writing campaign -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 00:35:33 (GMT)

Jim -:- OK, one down -- what about the rest? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:57:10 (GMT)
__ Mili -:- The SS uniform fits you well, Jim. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 07:41:37 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Bearing in mind the history of Croaitia, I find -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 23:40:09 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Hey Mili, and what about your attempts to close -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:33:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- Take a hike, J-M -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:10:41 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Oh fuck off Mili, how can you .......... -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:14:35 (GMT)
__ dv -:- I agree with Jim. After these people have had a -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:07:59 (GMT)
__ __ Annie -:- I agree with dv, i think it's a good idea -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:19:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ dv -:- Well Annie, are you? You see, it's posts like mine -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:31:14 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- Join up now! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:13:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ dv -:- You must really be bored, Keith. -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:15:07 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Why's my post empty? FA's? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:01:32 (GMT)
__ __ keith -:- Why's my post empty? FA's? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:59:33 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- Wait 30 mins and it'll be back up -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:23:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- What I think -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:45:57 (GMT)

M -:- Peace Bomb -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:50:32 (GMT)
__ annie -:- Peace Bomb -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:46:34 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- ANNIE SOSMAN IS A BLAD-FACED LIAR! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:13:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ annie -:- Jim says what he wants is a dialogue, but what he -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:39:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Annie -:- thou mewling milk-livered moldwarp -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:31:38 (GMT)
__ __ Mili -:- Peace Bomb -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 07:44:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Peace Bomb -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:32:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- How the fuck can you premies.... -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:06:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- How the fuck can you premies.... -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 03:34:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Hey Dep -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 21:25:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mili -:- How the fuck can you premies.... -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 11:24:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Well Mili -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 11:33:29 (GMT)
__ __ maharajaja -:- Peace Bum -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:50:15 (GMT)

Annie -:- Thinking -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:24:21 (GMT)
__ Charlie -:- Thinking -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:16:54 (GMT)
__ Keith -:- Thinking -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:43:23 (GMT)
__ __ Charlie -:- Thinking -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:16:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- High Five, Charlie! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:31:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ annie -:- all you can see is your own motives buster.[nt] -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:34:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Annie -:- speak for yourself. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:27:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, a new-age principle! Thanks, Annie -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:37:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Charlie -:- Hey, a new-age principle! Thanks, Annie -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 09:22:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Hey, a new-age principle! Thanks, Annie -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:47:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Charlie -:- why argue? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:49:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- why argue? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:55:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Great point -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:19:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Charlie -:- PS Sadly admitted -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 09:33:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- You are an endlessly fascinating egomaniac -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:41:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Stick around for a while, then leave -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:44:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- OK you da boss, jim -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:47:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- OK, how was the program? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:55:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- yes i saw him. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:06:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- So you don't have any problems with anything -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:15:26 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Thinking -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:42:00 (GMT)
__ __ annie -:- gosharootee mister wizard -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:29:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Hey I remember that cartoon... -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:38:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Annie -:- Hey I remember that cartoon... -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:45:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Hey I remember that cartoon... -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:49:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ annie -:- because i LIKE him. duh -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:50:23 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- Thinking -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:48:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- Calling someone a lair is going too far! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:03:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ keith -:- when is a liar a lair?ot. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:25:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gErRy -:- I didn't call her a 'lair' -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:12:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ annie -:- I didn't call her a 'lair' -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:38:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I didn't call her a 'lair' -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:46:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- i stick out my neck, have fun -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:28:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- We ALL stick our necks out here, Annie -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 20:33:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ You name is Raina -:- Isn't? nt -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:50:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- ships in the night -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:22:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good post, Rob -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:28:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- Stupid post, Jim -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:46:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And yes, MORE new age wisdom from Annie! -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:04:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- ships in the night -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:25:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- 'relentless effort' ???? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:17:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- The last shall be first. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:10:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ annie -:- The last shall be first. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 23:27:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, here's why I disrespect premies -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:33:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- who cares if you disrespect premies? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:56:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- I didn't call her a 'lair' -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:16:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I didn't call her a 'lair' -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:20:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- I didn't call her a 'lair' -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:25:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- can you be more specific? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:00:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- can you be more specific? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:06:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Ladies you'll like this one... -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:17:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- last sentence should end with 'end' nt -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:28:34 (GMT)

cq -:- At a time like this, FA??? pulleeeeezzzzz ... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:48:17 (GMT)
__ (Sir) David -:- Why oh why don't the FAs do THIS!!! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:32:24 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- a simple answer -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:17:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ (Sir) David -:- a simple answer -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:38:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- but also ps to dave -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:33:49 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- Why oh why don't the FAs do THIS!!! YES! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:42:17 (GMT)
__ G -:- I agree -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:01:52 (GMT)
__ Keith -:- At a time like this, FA??? pulleeeeezzzzz ... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:46:58 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- At a time like this, FA??? pulleeeeezzzzz ... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:48:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- At a time like this, FA??? pulleeeeezzzzz ... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:52:00 (GMT)
__ Powerman -:- Thank you, FA -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:15:09 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- Thank you, FA -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:50:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Powerman -:- Thank you, FA -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:10:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- Thank you, FA -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:14:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Thank you, FA -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:33:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Thank you very much, FA -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:09:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Bullshit, Keith -- You're lucky it wasn't you -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:00:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- Exactly, 'I'd put you on notice' -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:18:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- Bullshit, Keith -- You're lucky it wasn't you -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:10:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What do you think? (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:11:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- Typing in tandem! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:18:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Keith, didn't you experience this? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:53:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- Keith, didn't you experience this? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:59:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Keith, didn't you experience this? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:04:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- Keith, didn't you experience this? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:09:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Keith, didn't you experience this? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:43:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- Keith, didn't you experience this? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:53:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Keith, didn't you experience this? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:05:00 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- But it's the PRINCIPLE, man -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:35:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Bullshit, Chris -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:08:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- It's worse than that Jim, it's revisionist ... -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 19:59:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- In that case Jim.. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:24:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- But it's the PRINCIPLE, man -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:54:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Powerman -:- But it's the PRINCIPLE, man -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:49:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- But it's the PRINCIPLE, man -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:02:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- But it's the PRINCIPLE, man -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:26:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- But it's the PRINCIPLE, man -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:30:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- But it's the PRINCIPLE, man -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:40:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- opposing 'absolutely no control or restrictions'? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:19:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- spot on cq, couldn't agree more -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:00:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- spot on cq, couldn't agree more -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:02:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- spot on cq, couldn't agree more -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 04:02:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ S -:- spot on cq, couldn't agree more -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 19:57:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- When I first visited here, and heard the music -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 23:37:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- When I first visited here, and heard the music -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 05:27:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I'll trade, Ham -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:11:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- spot on cq, couldn't agree more -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:06:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- opposing 'absolutely no control or restrictions'? -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:51:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- raina profile -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:52:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- raina profile -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:49:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Enforcing time-out for Raina is compassionate. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 07:13:56 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- At a time like this, FA??? pulleeeeezzzzz ... -:- Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:11:22 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 09:27:13 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sumsing velly stlange goin on here-lost several
Message:
threads today The free speech threads have just gone away. and the ones from Kieth and the one about blocking ect ect.
Is it just my computer or what?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:29:55 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: I think you might be accessing a cached version
Message:
It happens to me when I use Explorer. CHeck the date at the top of the forum to make sure you are getting the most recent version. (As far as I know the threads are still there.)
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:17:59 (GMT)
From: Brianless
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Is it sane or insane? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:55:48 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: ok it's late etc.. but WHY do premies LIE?
Message:
Why do fabricate the most intricate stories just to have an email friendship? or a forum thread? or dozens? I mean I have had several what I thought were real email reach outs from premies 'on the edge'. Just conversing back and forth. Got into art. Movies. Authors, writing...
then, suddenly, they disappear. Now please do not misunderstand me. I know I have a bit of a rep for being wild. But I am talking genuine reaching out from people, both sexes. Then suddenly these personas who always of course have hotmail or the equiv accounts, disapear.
POINT BEING WHY LIE?????? I would have given the same support anyway. I just do not get it.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 08:06:41 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: ok it's late etc.. but WHY do premies LIE?
Message:
Selene,

how do you know they were lying, maybe they just couldn't keep up the correspondence. In my experience it's very difficult to keep up this type of exchange for long periods via email. I have people from all over the place writing to me to see if I'm their long lost relative after they find me via a geneological search. Some of them are really nice so I feel I must answer them and so there's a burst of email going back and forth for a bit then I realise I am just spread too thin. Know what I mean?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:26:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: hi Charlie. It's just odd when
Message:
The subject has centered around M and leaving the cult.

I do know what you mean though about not being able to keep up some email relationships. I've done the same thing myself, it can be very draining.
I'm always on line it seems so it's a little diff for me. I swear next job I get is going to be swimming around a fish tank feeding sharks or anything away from computers ! :)
thanks for answering.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:55:00 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Speaking of email mates...
Message:
Hi Selene, how's it going? Congratulations on being the starter of the latest thread on f5 for two days now. Must be some kind of record. Where is everyone? Probably off having a wake with raina. Even Keith has gone walkabout.
Wouldn't worry too much about email relationships coming and going. That's the nature of the beast isn't it.
How's the tooth?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 05:27:14 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: oh did I start threads?
Message:
You know, I have this new web project at work. If I described it here people would lose it, believing I am going to get paid, a LOT for this project. It is too funny. like attract like. that is all I can say! And I'm involved and excited :)

So, F5 has been kind of a passing thing I do at break, etc.
Which is where I like to keep F5. Don't like to get too obsessive.
I do have issues with censorship, but... well
I also understand what a fuck of a thankless job being an admin
here must be. oh and by the way I just
answered you over on AG.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:20:25 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jim's position on free speech.
Message:
I feel Jim really shows his true colours with posts like the one below, taken from a thread below. The forum itself could be powerfully undermined by such sentiments by one of its leading 'lights'. lurkers and new people reading this could be forgiven by thinking that they have wandered into an extreme right wing hate forum.

'I really don't think premies or friends of the guru in any form
should ever take their welcome here for granted. Obvious reasons
and no, I don't give a shit about the so-called 'free speech' issue.
I'm in my River of Answers phase.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:10:31 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Jim's position on free speech.
Message:
Is that right? I should consider myself a guest of this forum? Who's guest really? And
is that not condenscending. When I was last at Amaroo Maharaji made a point of
letting everyone know that we were all his guests and that he could if he wished ask
us to leave. Reminded me of that for some reason. Should those premies and more
moderate ex premies who post here bow down to the F.A's ? Kiss their arses, should
we? Jim's perhaps? I am offended by the tone and superior attitude that some present
here. Either you favour free speech or you don't. And those who have less hostile
feelings and thoughts about Maharaji or premies should not be
treated like their
bloody idiots with nothing of value to say. What are you afraid of? That the extreme
stance of many here would be considered the e.p.o philosophy? and those who brook
other sentiments should be quiet, go somewhere else or be blocked? The forum could
easily send doubters scurrying back to Maharaji. I like Hamzen so relieved when I
originally discovered this forum. Free speech at last. And like others here I did have a
lot to share and learn from others. But the principle of free speech despite the
disagreements and private verbal wars that were a part of that was one of the forums
better qualities. I then realised and now know there are boundaries . I don't care.
Block me if you want. Block others too. There's quite a few who disagree with the
'real' fascist tendencies here. To be more specific I am especially talking about Jims
views ,that I find abhorent. And a few others. I am not painting the whole crew with
the same colour paint. I am not condemning the actions of the F.A's. I don't know who
they are. And I don't know their reasoning in blocking Raina. But I am talking in
general about my views regarding censorship and post-control and limits to free
speech (except in extreme cases). The fact that I have been allowed to post criticisms
up to 'now' I see as a positive. Sure.
But I realise not everyone would agree with that. And it is not so much that I'm not
grateful as a guest here,(we all are guests if that's how one wants to see it) rather I
appreciate my own and others right to express freely. That's my main point.
I know that some here express a view that this forum is for particular purposes only. But that is a cover up for a desire to control 'content'. Because that view seems to only be brought out of the broom cupboard when contrary views to the mainstream are aired. If the ex's here who I consider extreme, have logic,right, reason and common sense on their side they should not feel threatened by what 'they' consider b.s. Truth prevails in the end , doesn't it?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 18:54:16 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Jim's position on free speech.
Message:
Either you favour free speech or you don't.

That is incorrect. No-one has a right to start a panic by falsely bellowing fire! in a crowded theatre, for example.

Freedom of speech and ideas is important. But it is not the only Good. Speech can be used destructively.

This is the ex-premie.org site. It would be polite (and politic!) for others to respect the work and growth that has made this facility possible.

That is not too much to ask of anyone - let alone those who would follow a spiritual path.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:56:00 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Except in extreme cases.
Message:
JohnT,I wrote 'I am talking in
general about my views regarding censorship and post-control
and limits to free
speech (except in extreme cases)'

Extreme cases. Of course the interpretation of 'extreme cases' even if people agree would differ.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:04:36 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: IMO, Keith, you ae an extreme case
Message:
One of my famous predictions:

Keith will eventually go ballistics after building up to such a crecendo of new agey, M positive posts that he literally buries the forum with his inane chatter. Just like the last time.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 22:10:11 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: IMO, Keith, you ae an extreme case
Message:
hardly Gerry. With you around to remind me of my extreme tendencies. But then again you never know!
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 23:03:59 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Exactly keith, that's why democracy is more honest
Message:
than any one single view, because everyones view point is different.

That way the relevant community has equal access and can minimise abuses of power, alongside, whatever else they agree on also.
A lesson Raina has yet to learn, and one I think you forget way too often.

Yet what do we see him doing over the years, taking more and more control over the structureas and increasingly limiting premie input. Curious that after all these years of following the triangle, these people are LESS, not more, trustworthy of delivering the goods.
Very curious

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:21:14 (GMT)
From: annie
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: regarding free speech on this forum
Message:
I think it's valid that this is an ex-premie site,
created for a specific purpose, primarily intended as a support
to people who choose to consider themselves ex-premies.
Therefore I do consider myself a guest, and not necessarily
an invited guest.

When I first found this site, it was through a search for
Maharaji and at that time this was the only site which
came up. I posted my own perspective here because
if any one person did a search they would find only
a one-sided representation of Maharaji. I don't think
there's a point in trying to convince anyone of what I think
nor have someone try to convince me. But i think a
slightly more objective presentation is a good thing.
I think people can come to an objective conclusion only if they
can see a variety of subjectives. otherwise it appears
to be cultish and small minded rhetoric.
Annie

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:14:39 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: annie
Subject: regarding free speech on this forum
Message:
thanks Annie. Even before your post I've been reviewing my views about the 'guest' status. Why have I reacted to the word 'guest' in the way I have? It wasn't the word itself. It was the way in which it was used. I was reminded that I was just a guest here on ex premie org as a way of putting my contribution onto an inferior 'standing'. And it was that I was really reacting to. Because this is an ex premie forum primarily. I agree. But I am an ex premie. What I challenge is the 'mob' rule type perspective on this forum that would have everyonebelieve that there is only one type of real ex premie. And that those ex's like myself who do not hate Maharaji and have moderate views are in some way not authentic ex's. That is total garbage! This arbitary way that the ruling mob dominate this forum by stereotyping themselves and everyone else. This method of catogarising and boxing everyone is a way of psuedo control that equals anything I've seen around Elan Vital. At least here the f.a's give some rope. But the conditions attached are not as generous as they might appear, imo. So,I retract what I said about the status as guest of myself and presumably most others. I was in error. Sorry. Anyone who enters my house is my guest.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:10:31 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Keith
Subject: Jim's position on free speech.
Message:
when I originally discovered this forum

[Free speach drivel deleted]

I then realised and now know there are boundaries. I don't care.

What an interesting viewpoint you have, Keith. You omit the fact that you have repeatedly flouted the boundaries to the extent that your first 2 appearances here eventually resulted in your being blocked from posting.

In fact, the very ability to block posters was originally written into the software as a quick patch just to handle your unwillingness to respect those boundaries. That portion of the code has you personally to thank for it's existence.

It would serve you very well to re-read AJW's post regarding individual welcomes and free-speach issues. People are not initially refused some right to post here, as they are on the pro-Maharaji sites (and their accompanying non-forums). Here you have to work hard to get booted.

You might claim to recognise boundaries, but after all this time you still can say, 'I don't care'.

That's alright. That's why the forum has FA's. They DO care. And they very effectlvely protect the forum by enforcing boundaries set by neither you nor Jim. So rant on...

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:43:46 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Brian and everyone.
Subject: free speech.
Message:
Brian I'll try not to bore you too much with 'my drivel'. But I'm not too hopeful I'll succeed. btw speech is spelt speech not speach. I'm not going to get into a debate about my flouting boundaries eighteen months ago. Some views about that I've expressed in some posts anyway.
Of course I CARE. You have taken my words out of context. I meant I don't care if you give me the boot. In the sense that I shall not be intimidated into not expressing myself as I feel. Unless a forum consensus agreed that I should go elsewhere. And then I would accept that verdict.
Personally I felt that in one or two of Raina's last posts she was really opening out and baring her soul. And she was 'calling' out (knowingly or unknowingly) for some understanding. And she got booted for that. Isn't this forum supposed to be a support system ? Where does compassion for the suffering begin and end? Sure, some more complex souls ,like Raina and presumably myself, are requiring 'more'of the recipient. But why do people here choose to read or respond to those who irritate them or they find a waste of time and energy to read? Why? Why should I read someones posts and then say it's a waste of my time
and continue to read that persons posts? Is it like the the somewhat obscene fascination we seem to have with watching other peoples misfortunes on the news. War in our lounge rooms? Scandel in da family? Hot gossip?
As I've said to Annie in the post above , I've recanted on my views about being a guest. I am here at the pleasure or tolerence of the forum rulers. Hierachy is a rule of thumb in most group endevours. Sorry. Probably bored you all to distraction.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 08:07:14 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Jim's position on free speech.
Message:
Keith,

You, me, and all the other posters are guests here. And if, like Raina, one of us ends up pissing off, winding up, and insulting most of the regular posters, we could end up getting shown the door too.

This forum doesn't exist to promote free speech. Sir Dave has kindly provided an annexe for that stuff on his AG forum. This is a place where Ex-premies can find support when leaving a cult.

It's not a place where cult members are welcome to come and persuade people to stay in a cult, or join a cult.

Anth the Fascist

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:01:04 (GMT)
From: Kiss my ass
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: To Anth The Fascist
Message:
So free speech is an issue, regarding violation of copyrigth laws.
But not regarding expressing thoughts or feelings?

Kiss my ass

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:43:54 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Kiss those Feet
Subject: To Anth The Fascist
Message:
Zieg Heil you big brave anonymous fighter for freedom.

You don't get it do you.

It's like going to a Jewish newspaper and accusing them of censorship and suppression of freedom of information because they won't publish your article telling everyone that the holocast figures are wildly exaggerated, and only a couple of hundred criminals really died in the camps.

And I take it that you're in agreement with your master, that his embarrasing speeches from a few years ago, when he was telling us all he was the most powerful incarnation of god ever to walk the planet should be forbidden reading to one and all.

By the way Kiss My Ass, with a name like that I wonder how long is it since you lined up and kissed your masters feet?

Anth too fat to kiss his own feet, and doesn't kiss anyone elses.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:02:59 (GMT)
From: Kiss my ass
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: To Anth The Fascist
Message:
You wrote
'You don't get it do you.'

I don'get it. That is true.

You are screaming about freedom of speech and Maharaji is taking that away from you, but here people are not allowed to have other opinions.

Kiss my ass

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:22:53 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Kiss my ass
Subject: To Anth The Fascist
Message:
Who's screaming about freedom of speech?

What are you talking about?

Anth the curious fascist bigot

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:42:02 (GMT)
From: Kiss my ass
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: To Anth The Fascist with AL
Message:
AL = Alzheimer Light
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:26:52 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: Kiss my ass
Subject: To Kiss my ass
Message:
If Raina wants to post here he/she could do it easily by using a different service provider or a proxy. There's always ways to bend the rules.

Personally, I am not surprised that Maharaji has taken my site of the net, twice now. I am not outraged and fully expect it to disappear again within a week or so. Maharaji has every right to try to get my site banned and I'd expect him to do so.

There already is free speech on the net. Since the net is impossible to control or censor beyond a small local level (as on this forum), there's no way someone can prevent anyone from saying whatever they like.

So like the many headed Hydra of Greek Mythology, the sites which criticise or lampoon Maharaji will keep reappearing again after they have been taken off the net. So what is Maharaji to do? I have every sympathy with him. He's trying to control a media which is uncontrollable. It's an impossible task which will only frustrate him.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:14:00 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: (Sir) David
Subject: Another possibility
Message:
Maybe Maharaji is giving you a hint that the stuff you had online about him was way off mark. Ever consider that angle?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:36:36 (GMT)
From: Brianless
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Dream on, David
Message:
You wrote:
'Personally, I am not surprised that Maharaji has taken my site of the net, twice now'

Reality:
Maharajis may contact yahoo, etc. , he has not the power to take your site off the net.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:20:37 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: Brianless
Subject: Ok let's not get too pedantic, Brianless and Mili
Message:
In actual fact, Maharaji himself probably doesn't even know about my seb site, at least its second incarnation and I realise he didn't personally take it off the web but that Elan Vital paid lawyers to contact Geocities etc.

But this is a new age. A new age where people can say what they like on the net and no-one can stop them. When Maharaji finally clues up to this fact, that neither he nor Elan Vital can prevent anyone from saying what they like about him, then he will have to change his attitude. That will be better for everyone.

And in answer to you Mili; is my site out of order? Yes it is if you're a fully paid up member of Maharaji's clan. Is it actually illegal? I think not and Maharaji himself would know this if he ever read the site. Certainly the web hosts would have contacted the British authorities if it was illegal.

The reason Geocities have given me why they've taken my site off the web is because it goes against their policy of 'nice' web sites under their name. I appreciate that and I'll be moving the site to a more suitable host in the near future.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:44:05 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: (Sir) David
Subject: Ok let's not get too pedantic, Brianless and Mili
Message:
Freedom of speech is worth nothing if it's not accompanied by responsibility, David.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:51:04 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Mili
Subject: How DARE you lecture anyone on free speech!!!
Message:
Mili:

Lest anyone forget, you tried to pull the plug on the ex-premie site in the early days with a fraudulent petition to Usenet.

(Do you remember Usenet's response? I seem to remember it included the words: 'Clueless fucking troll')

If you have an English dictionary nearby try looking up the word 'hypocrite'.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:18:41 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: That's very true Mili
Message:
And I have a responsibility to tell people exactly what they're getting themselves into if they're joining Maharaji & Co.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:18:50 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Kiss my ass-Bjorn
Subject: Kiss my ass Bjorn -Popeye etc..
Message:
s
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:25:16 (GMT)
From: premie lurker
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Jim's position on free speech.
Message:
Well Keith, Hi,
I enjoy your posts, and hope you don't get booted :-) I do think it's helpful not to take my welcome here for granted, since it is a site by and for ex-premies. I feel like a guest in their house and try to act accordingly. And after all, where else on the Internet will I find the original text of the Peace Bomb? What memories that brought back!
Regards, Sean
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:45:25 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: premie lurker
Subject: regards Sean
Message:
Nice to hear from you again.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:41:58 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: premie lurker
Subject: Jim's position on free speech.
Message:
'And after all, where else on the Internet will I find the original text of the Peace Bomb? '

Certainly not on maharaji's site, or enjoyinglife.org(even though they promised a 'messages' board.
Don't you think that m should allow discussion on his site?...or doesn't that matter...since he is who HE is?
Don't you think that maharaji should answer about the allegations that he knew of sexual abuse acts performed by jagdeo, padarthanand? ?...or doesn't that matter...since he is who HE is?

Could you explain exactly what makes you a premie?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:34:39 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Jim's position on free speech.
Message:
OK, I am going to give this a shot....

>Don't you think that m should allow discussion on his site?
Yes. Also wish that he (or at least the premies responsible for the site) would publish all of the DLM text. And the Radhasoami heritage of knowledge. I had to come here to find both, and while I know that publishing it here was intended for a completely different purpose, it has meant a lot to me, and I want to thank again the people responsible. The former was like finding an old cherished family album in the attic, and the latter was like an orphan suddenly finding his family, and place in the world.

>Don't you think that maharaji should answer about the allegations that he knew of sexual abuse acts performed by jagdeo, padarthanand?
I have no information about this. Shouldn't the ones accused answer the allegations? I would hope that Maharaji would not tolerate even the appearance of this kind of behavior among the instructors.

>Could you explain exactly what makes you a premie?
I learned how to meditate from one of Maharaji's instructors. I value what I learned. As stated earlier, my experience of meditation is not exceptional in any way. I give Maharaji the credit for teaching me, and consider him my guru. It's as simple as that.

[You did not ask this, but I will try to answer it anyway]
>Is Maharaji divine, or not?
I do not know. When I first started 26 years ago, I was convinced that he was. Doubts set in early, but the guru-disciple relationship does seem to be important, at least for me. I do not expect him to act perfect or be perfect in any worldly sense. By whose standard does he have to be perfect spiritually, emotionally, physically, or intellectually? This is a legitimate question, I think. I am not saying that his imperfections are lila. I am saying that this seems to be an unfair test, and not relevant to my spiritual development. I subscribe to a belief in God's 'good faith'. That is, if I mean well and am sincere, God will give me credit, even if I make mistakes or misjudgements. Kind of like the airlines honoring each other's tickets during disruptions.
OK, maybe I should not have tried to answer that last question, after all...

PS: Hi Selene :-)


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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:58:15 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Sean
Subject: To Sean, FYI
Message:
Sean,

You say you have no information about Maharaji knowing of Jagdeo's pedophilia activities. You can inform yourself, if you so desire. Two of the victims have recorded their testimonies at Child abuse in Maharaji's cult.

If you have been close to Knowledge for some years, you will probably have heard of the premie who served as Marilyn's midwife. She is just one of the people who personally informed Mr. Rawat about Jagdeo years ago.

As for your reliance on the guru-disciple relationship, I think you will do well to consider your involvement very very carefully. You speak of 'God's good faith,' yet you do not approach it directly. More to say on that later perhaps. The Forum is too busy now to keep up with all the threads!

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:33:59 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Sean
Subject: Sean's answer
Message:
Well, I found your answer interesting.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:35:50 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Sean
Subject: Regarding Jagdeo
Message:
' Also wish that he (or at least the premies responsible for the site) would publish all of the DLM text. And the Radhasoami heritage of knowledge. I had to come here to find both, and while I know that publishing it here was intended for a completely different purpose, it has meant a lot to me, and I want to thank again the people responsible. '

Same here. I found the ex-premie & JM's site while I was still a premie and absolutely loved it for the same reasons you did. After becoming an ex-premie the site became valuable for the aspirants I was meeting in recent years who were told that all that early stuff didn't happen. Fortunately films/videos of that era still exist.

'I have no information about this. Shouldn't the ones accused answer the allegations? I would hope that Maharaji would not tolerate even the appearance of this kind of behavior among the instructors.'

Well, he did and does know about it and has done nothing.
I met up with a premie who is/was on Elan Vital's investigating committee about Jagdeo. This person told me that at first he thought it was setup by ex-premies, but when he saw reports(from sides of the Atlantic) describing Jagdeos 'activities', he saw that reports were describing identical behaviour and believes that Jagdeo is 'into it up to his neck'. You can check this out with Elan Vital and if they deny it, I will publish the name of that premie. I don't want to do this, I would like him to speak up of his own accord(he is a long term friend of mine). He did say he may particpate on this forum, but has not as far as I know.
If you're reading this, old friend, you are leaving me no other choice. I am convinced that you would be a good participant here. My own opinion is that the only reason why you haven't posted here is that maharaji doesn't want you to.If that is the reason I suggest you get over that.

Anyway Sean please check it out with ElanVital and let us know what they say.

Regards Jethro

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:51:25 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Regarding Jagdeo
Message:
Thanks Jethro, I look forward to hearing more about this. This post of yours reminds me why the forum is worth reading!
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:38:27 (GMT)
From: So
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Regarding Jagdeo
Message:
you say that there was an Elan Vital's investigating committee about Jagdeo. If Maharaji knew about Jagdeos activities as people here tend to claim, why make an investiagating committee?
Doesn't make sense to me!
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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:06:09 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: So
Subject: Regarding Jagdeo/Wake Up
Message:
It would make sense to you if you looked at committees's in the political sense. What does the Congress or the President do when something fucked up happens? Right! They form a ________?

This way Rawat doesn't have to dirty his own paws in the matter and deniability is still possible if necessary.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 07:35:40 (GMT)
From: So
Email: None
To: JtF
Subject: JtF, you are saying
Message:
that Maharaji knew about Jagdeo, and then he formed a secret investiagating committee nobody knew about axcept those who became a member, not in order to find out about it but to ensure that nothing happened.
Sweet dreams
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:41:24 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Regarding Jagdeo
Message:
I am left with a thought - what's more important, a child or Maharaji? An innocent who is subjected to cruelty or a pompous, self glorifying criminal (as Maharaji is).
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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 11:04:33 (GMT)
From: So
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: what kind of thought -
Message:
a programmed thought or a pure thought?

Why is it nobody dare to find the basics of this issue.

Is this also a bunch of lies?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:02:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: ********JETHRO'S POST -- VERY IMPORTANT*********
Message:
This is critical news, Jethro! You're saying that EV actually set up a real committee to investigate Jagdeo? And that the committee confirmed the allegations or, at least, found them to be likely true? This is amazing. You're actually suggesting that the Hamster struck a committee for some purpose other than setting up the trinket tables or funnelling quasi-legal income into the Hamster's fat coffers. You'd have to go all the way back to 1975 or 6 to find anything comparable in the cult history and all I'm thinking of in that case were those funny three-piece suit corporate make-believe sessions we had when we first tried to deconstruct following the Lord fo the Universe.

But what of this committee? Where's the report and is it anything like Ivette or Janice's reports on ELK? You know, 'We really had a beautiful experience coming together in the harmony of this investigation. Maharaji showed each one of us that clarity can come in even the seediest circumstances. At first, we thought Jagdeo's trangressions were isolated and perhaps untrue. But we soon discovered that he had touched so many in exactly the same way all around the world!.... So where IS this report?

AND, most significantly, what does it say about Susan's 'claim' (as if I doubt her for a second) that Maharaji must have known for years based on her two communications with PAM / Instructors?

LISTEN, MAHARAJI, YOU COWARD: AT A VERY MINIMUM, IF YOU'VE DONE THAT INVESTIGATION YOU'VE DONE IT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE DIFFICULT DISCLOSURE OF SUSAN AND ABI. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CNA COMPREHEND BASIC HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY BUT PERHAPS YOUR HANDLER / LACKIES CAN EXPLAIN IT TO YOU.

YOU OWE THAT REPORT TO SUSAN AND ABI AND ALL THE REST OF US WHO FORCED YOU TO INVESTIGATE IN THE FIRST PLACE. WHERE IS IT?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:25:09 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Never mind Jim...
Message:
...be resentful forever, if you want. Buaaaa.....
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 19:37:42 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ********JETHRO'S POST -- VERY IMPORTANT*********
Message:
Did you sent it to Lard?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 18:24:43 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ********JETHRO'S POST -- VERY IMPORTANT*********
Message:
I absolutely agree with everything you have said, Jim.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:55:13 (GMT)
From: george s.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: letter writing campaign
Message:
All-was just wondering,as I perused one section of the EPO site, the one with the letters from some of the exes to one of the maharaji sites-there was some really good writing in some of those letters...
and I read some of Daneane's letters, still unanswered, to an instructor..
what would happen if we started a letter writing campaign to some of the instructors,asking some of the more pertinent questions about m's lifestyle and other controversial things?
it would be interesting to read their responses...
it would be interesting to see what kind of questions it stirred up in their minds...
it would be interesting to post their answers...
any ideas or comments?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:43:31 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: george s.
Subject: letter writing campaign
Message:
Great idea in principle George, but I wonder if there might be legal concerns re harrassment, or worse depending on content of letters. USPS has whole departments devoted to this kind of stuff. Maybe our resident legal eagles could comment first.

Sorry didn't mean to put a damper on it.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 00:35:33 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: george s.
Subject: letter writing campaign
Message:
Writing letters is good for the person who writes them. But it is a futile effort, as such letters are never answered.

If you do write, post your letter. And better yet, post any answer you receive. Don't hold your breath.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:57:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: OK, one down -- what about the rest?
Message:
I think we should give some serious consideration to limiting the involvement of Keith here. He is, by my count, the most prolific poster by far, ever since he got his computer back apparently and, let's face it, he's a total idiot. I don't know about you guys but I think it's just plain wrong for some cult apologist (whether they call themselves a premie or not) to take over the forum like this. Let's face it, although premies are more than welcome to come and defend the cult here (it's a bit of a sport, after all, isn't it? Seeing them shuck and jive, denying the obvious and all that?) they do become tiresome after a while. Is it the case that any premie who wants to can park here interminably and post nonsense month after month, year after year? Why? Se we can get a medal from the ACLU or something?

I say no, that really what matters most, believe it or not, is exe's happiness. Our simple, basic comfort level. We paid the price, we got ripped off on a bogus tour with a bogus travel agent. Can't we now sit around a table and have a few good laughs at the pictures of our bogus trip without suffering incessant insults and stupidity from these flies? Really, have you read any of Mili, Elaine's, O's or Keith's posts today? We're Hitler's, murderers, worse. Give me a fucking break. Enough is enough.

Here's a little experience from my own little life which, to me anyway, is relevant and informative. As a lawyer I see all different kinds of witnesses. Some are honourable and trustworthy, some not. The latter are always fun for a while. Indeed, it's a gas going after an obvious liar and sometimes the whole court can't help but enjoy the show. But after a while, even when you're demolishing their credibility (deservedly, of course), their evidence gets tiring. I mean, like it's ultimately a low-grade human experience to deal with , deception evasion, irrationality or any other form of dishonourable communication. And that's with a judge admonishing the witness to answer responsively and, more importantly, having all the control you do when you're the one asking the questions.

Now the honourable witnesses are a whole other ball game. Even when their evidence is not favourable, there's simply a different vibe in the courtroom, in your head, everywhere, when they're talking. It's as if the entire species looks better when someone's being forthright, intelligent, rational and honest. It's cool. Makes you proud to be a human (or at least not ashamed).

So what do we have here? No controls but instead an opportunity for complete inanity to persist unchecked. Why do people get so exasperated with some of these trolls? Because there's no other way to control them other than to try to shame them into somehow seeing how unacceptable their communication really is. Well, fat chance on that huh? Particularly seeing as this is a new-age cult we all got out of and many of us, especially the cult apologists, still harbour so much new-age thinking. It's impossible, really, to discuss anything with a new-ager, I've found, because they've abandoned any serious committment to honest discussion anyway. Really, don't beleive me, try it yourself. Corner a new-ager on anything and see if the words that form that logical trap don't somehow lose their meaning. It happens again and again here. And, yes, it's exasperating.

If I were running the show I'd never let this place become perfectly comfortable for them. If their comfort is at out expense, I sure wouldn't. I'd let them read all they want and post once in a while. Not sure how that would be done but I sure wouldn't let Keith or Elaine camp out here indefinitely. That's my two cents worth.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 07:41:37 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: The SS uniform fits you well, Jim.
Message:
Zieg heil!
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 23:40:09 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Bearing in mind the history of Croaitia, I find
Message:
your comment unbelievably stupid.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:33:16 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Hey Mili, and what about your attempts to close
Message:
the newsgroup?

Should I dig out this stuff and add it to 'The Saga'?

That was really so lame ...... and maybe that could make the introduction, or the preface .... I wonder ...

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:10:41 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Take a hike, J-M
Message:
Don't you think you've done more than enough of your share to perpetrate this particular brand of Goebbels propaganda? The 'arguments' against Maharaji presented here and on the other 'X' sites are either based on lies, or distortions and concoctions. Verbal abuse is used to separate the believers and potential X-recruits from those not as gullible enough. That's a cult if I ever saw one.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:14:35 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Oh fuck off Mili, how can you ..........
Message:
say something like that to such a nice boy? You're the one who follows a little dictator. He even used to have a little moustache didn't he? He hates free speach so don't come on here with your accusations of fascism.

' THIS TIME I COME WITH MORE LAWYERS THAN EVER BEFORE '

and they cost you premies plenty too !!!!!!!!!!! HA HA!!!!!!!!

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:07:59 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I agree with Jim. After these people have had a
Message:
week or two run, boot em off.

dv the peanut gallery.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:19:55 (GMT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: I agree with dv, i think it's a good idea
Message:
to boot me off, that is if I am one of those
people.
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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:31:14 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Well Annie, are you? You see, it's posts like mine
Message:
and yours that go round and round saying absolutely nothing but panty anty time wasting bullshit. Some kind of disjointed ego rodeo that distracts from the purpose of this forum. Not wanting to read all these posts, I skim a lot and sometimes miss the really good ones written by the dedicated and wonderful exes here who take the time and effort to post, again and again, very thought provoking messages that help people leave the cult.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:13:32 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Join up now!
Message:
What colour shirts will you all wear? Any emblems to identify you? How about special agents to report on and eliminate trouble makers and vermin?
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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:15:07 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: You must really be bored, Keith.
Message:
Nothing here to bite on!
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:01:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: yyyyyyyy
Subject: Why's my post empty? FA's?
Message:
Hey, what happened? Am I being censored? :)
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:59:33 (GMT)
From: keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why's my post empty? FA's?
Message:
Posts empty probably because that represents your head. Haha!
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:23:37 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wait 30 mins and it'll be back up
Message:
this has happened a few times to me recently

another time I had to scan miles to the right to see the full post, ie there was a horizontal bar, not just a vertical one

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:45:57 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Thread
Subject: What I think
Message:
First I read Kieth free speech post and then this one to figure what it was about.

My reaction to Kieths' post was who says this is a free speech place anyway? I dont buy the blaket free speech thing- and I do not think hearing everyone is the intention of the forum at all.

As for blocking, I dont read Kieth usually because I dont like the name. Names that start with K bother me.

And I dont read Elaine. But I have peeked enough into Rainas lately and I feel/think/intuit and know that she should be allowed only controlled access. To do this to Raina would be a humanitarian act. Her emotional stress and anguish is extreme and I think it would be an act of kindness to give her some time off.

I agree with Jim that the ex comfort level is paramount. I never thought of it like that before but it sounds marvelous.
And I expecially like it when he remembers that when he is speaking to ANY ex- even if they dont agree with him.
(and astrology is not new agey;))

so yes to blocking and no to free speech especially when it is Jims.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:50:32 (GMT)
From: M
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Peace Bomb
Message:
These tears are not because I am remembering my Father, but because I am feeling so much power in me. They are tears of strength. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come, the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the savior of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who come to me are already saved. Now it's your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy?

Give me your love, I will give you peace. Come to ye, I will relieve you of your suffering. I am the source of peace in this world. All I ask of you is your love. All I ask is your trust. And what I can give you is such peace as will never die. I declare I will establish peace in this world. But what can I do unless men come to me with love in their heart and a keen wish to know peace and Truth?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:46:34 (GMT)
From: annie
Email: None
To: M
Subject: Peace Bomb
Message:
Ok now I can answer, yes, I do believe in the
peace bomb satsang, except you made a typo.

I take it literally. I do!

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:13:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: annie
Subject: ANNIE SOSMAN IS A BLAD-FACED LIAR!
Message:
In the emial exchange I alredy mentioned, Annie denied any belief whatsoever in any parts of the classic cult catechism of the seventies. Indeed, I threw quote after quote at her and, in each case, she did this embarrassing new-age shuffle that, in the end, just made me so disgusted I had to tell her to get lost. She said she wanted to talk but what she really wanted was someone to hold on to while she talked in her sleep.

So now she's reinvented herself as an orthodox premie. Fine, to everything turn, turn, turn. Whatever. But she's a major liar if she says that she believed this -- or admitted that she did -- as recently as a year ago.

Now, unfortunately, I lost my old emails when I had to reformat my hard drive. But Annie says that she's got every word of our exchange. I dare her to send them back to me and let me see them again. Come on, Annie, prove me wrong. I'll admit it if I am. But where things stand right now, I am completely certain that you're a liar.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:39:34 (GMT)
From: annie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim says what he wants is a dialogue, but what he
Message:
really wants, only he knows. I suspect he wants to
be convinced that Maharaji actually is the Lord
of the universe, and that he even loves Jim.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:31:38 (GMT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: thou mewling milk-livered moldwarp
Message:
you quack me up jim. ok i'll search my files, make you
a happy boy.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 07:44:13 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: annie
Subject: Peace Bomb
Message:
Give me your love, I will give you peace. Come to me, I will relieve you of your suffering. I am the source of peace in this world. All I ask of you is your love. All I ask is your trust. And what I can give you is such peace as will never die. I declare I will establish peace in this world. But what can I do unless men come to me with love in their heart and a keen wish to know peace and Truth?
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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:32:58 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Peace Bomb
Message:
I am the source of Peace in this world.

I don't know you Mili,but, do you really believe that statement today?

That is SOME big statement.

Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:06:26 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Premies
Subject: How the fuck can you premies....
Message:
still believe in this LIAR. Surely it's so fucking obvious that nothing he said has happened? I don't see any premies radiating love to the world. I don't see everyone getting to even hear about K & M. If he was so keen for the message to get out, how come he went into hiding from the media? One to one, how long's that gonna take?

Does he relieve people of their suffering? I still suffered as a premie and every premie I knew or know still suffers.

Where is that peace in this world. Note , he doesn't say inner world but this world. Where the fuck is it? When?

Dream on dreamers or wake up and grow up . Time to rejoin the rest of the human race premies, and deal with reality as it is.

That crap he said then makes me angry now. Why? because I believed the little fucker too!!

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 03:34:33 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: How the fuck can you premies....
Message:
Hal you wrote,

How the fuck can you premies still believe in this LIAR. Surely it's so fucking obvious that nothing he said has happened? I don't see any premies radiating love to the world.

I see people who have peace in their lives. I see premies and even others radiating love to the world.

I don't see everyone getting to even hear about K & M. If he was so keen for the message to get out, how come he went into hiding from the media? One to one, how long's that gonna take?

Yeah the media are a real bunch of reliable folks aren't they? In case you haven't noticed Hal, they are just interested in sensationalizing things to deliver people to advertisers.

Does he relieve people of their suffering? I still suffered as a premie and every premie I knew or know still suffers.

Get a fucking lobotomy then. What the fuck were you expecting? Some kind of permanent heroin trip with no problems?

Where is that peace in this world. Note , he doesn't say inner world but this world. Where the fuck is it? When?

I believe he said peace for people who want it. There are people in this world who have peace, now.

Dream on dreamers or wake up and grow up . Time to rejoin the rest of the human race premies, and deal with reality as it is.

So reality is 'life is shit' then is it? Could K be part of reality?

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 21:25:38 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Hey Dep
Message:
OK I was extremely naive and believed what he said, literally. I didn't look for some kind of hidden Taoist meanings. I just believed that he was the ONE who could bring peace to me and to the planet. Just an idealistic young hippy who was taken in by my dream of peace on Earth and everyone coming together in a giant love festival. If you think it's so fulfilling and wonderful, fine, I certainly gave it a good try and it didn't work for me.

Hal

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 11:24:39 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Hal
Subject: How the fuck can you premies....
Message:
And what did you do to help?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 11:33:29 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Well Mili
Message:
I gave 6 yrs of my life in an ashram, donating all my earnings. I worked for M full time without any national insurance being paid and losing many years of pension benefits. I brought several people to knowledge ( God forgive me). I was aspirant co-ordinator in several regions. I meditated thousands of hours and sung Arti every morning for years. I accomodated his initiators in my home free of charge and fed them. Maybe a few more things but I can't be bothered to remember them as it all makes me feel somewhat queezy uuurgh !

Why , what did you do ?

Hal

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:50:15 (GMT)
From: maharajaja
Email: None
To: annie
Subject: Peace Bum
Message:
These tears are not because I am remembering my Father, but because I am feeling so much cognac in me. They are tears of stupor. I have become so pitiful. I have come for the World Bank. Whenever the greedy come, the worldly-wise oppose them. Again I have come and you are not buying it. Every ear should hear that the swindler of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji's con racket. Those who come to me are already credit-checked. Now it's your duty to seduce others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy?

Give me your money, I will give you pretty phrases. Come to me, I will relieve you of your life savings. I am the source of poverty in this world. All I ask of you is your dosh. All I ask is your trust account. And what I claim I can give you is such peace as you will never feel. I declare I will establish peace in this world, maybe. But what can I do unless men come to me with cash in their pockets and no wish to know peace and Truth?

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:24:21 (GMT)
From: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Thinking
Message:
There's a big difference between thinking for one's self --
one's own original thoughts -- and thinking stuff that
someone else has taught or influenced you to think.

I've never been discouraged by Maharaji from thinking
for myself, although many premies, mahatmas, instructors
have encouraged mindlessnesss, it's true. I HAVE suggested
to some premies that they visit this site. It's my
opinion that many are afraid to think for themselves --
maybe because they fear disillusionment, or they fear being
influenced by negativity, or being a 'bad' premie, or
whatever. Yet it helps me to face my fears, if I have
them. It helps me to pay attention, to discern between
what is my actual own experience and what is merely
a programmed belief of some sort.

I have heard Maharaji encourage people to question, to
think and feel for themselves. When he talks about the mind
as a 'negative' influence, my take has always been to question
and challenge my own thoughts -- not merely discard them,
but to examine them -- and not just robotically do everything/
say everything/BE anything simply because somehow
the directive is inside my own head.

People absorb way more into their thinking than they
realize -- and all of us are programmed with complicated
old thinking patterns. Added to that, for many who received
Knowledge in the early seventies, was all the cult thinking,
of which I too was a voluntary victim. Much of it by osmosis.
Mindlessness is wonderfully easy -- but ultimately it is
completely unsatisfying, and a waste of one's brilliant
creative original self.

I have felt free to do this. In the years since I left the
ashram, I sought to free myself of all the stuff which
appeared to be associated with Knowledge, but which in
reality -- I have discovered -- has nothing to do with
Knowledge itself.

I think intelligence is directly related to a person's
ability to think for him or herself. What do 'I' really know,
of what am 'I' certain? I must find my own answers to my
own questions. That's how I have understood it for many
many years. It has never caused a conflict for me with
how I view Maharaji, or how I experience looking inside
of me.

With regards to practicing Knowledge, or simply living
day to day: direct experience, feeling, is entirely
independent of thought.

When I was young, I used to call feeling 'pure thought.'
It is a purity of awareness, clarity of understanding,
sans language, sans past and future, eyes wide open, in
the present moment.
Annie

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:16:54 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Thinking
Message:
Hey Annie,

how can you take it upon yourself to advise other premies to visit this site in the pursuit of free thinking? Can you imagine Maharaji advising premies to visit this site? Of course not. Does he mean so little to you that you would suggest things to people you know he wouldn't want. What sort of premie are you for crying out loud?

Have you ever told anybody the techniques?

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:43:23 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Thinking
Message:
Thankyou Annie for a clear and significant post. You echo my own feelings/thoughts to quite some degree. It's simple enough for those who can go beyond their own programmed thoughts and emotions. Thanks again!
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:16:10 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Thinking
Message:
I just hate all this nonsense that you premies Keith and Annie are spewing forth about how you think for yourselves. You go on about how you saw through all the bullshit back in the seventies and then all the other bullshit of the eighties and now you see the bullshit of the nineties. This is always bullshit that other poor saps following GM can't see cause they're dumber than you, right. Keith and Annie, do you really understand Knowledge and how it works cause you're so much smarter or perhaps clearer (or whatever magic you're endowed with). You seem to have discovered a hidden layer of intricate workings beneath the simple exterior of K. Do you really believe that there is more to it than M has already said. You have to make up your own bullshit because the basic k package is so dismally disappointing and you don't agree with the party line bullshit. Now you're happy with your crackpot ideas you put on all these disgusting spiritual heirs and come prancing over to ex-premie.org and posture all over the place. You're fucking nuts, the pair of you, completely raving.

Keith you say your an ex somewhere, really are you. You cannot make your mind up about anything can you. Tea or coffee Keith? Oh, dear is your brain bleeding? The only thing I've seen you firm about is this raina's right to vomit all over the forum thing which is totally crazy. When you said to Gerry that 'someone should kick your butt' why not use the first person singular and say I would like to kick. Do you see what I'm saying, I just can't take you seriously.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:31:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: High Five, Charlie!
Message:
Charlie,

Interesting juxtaposition between this post of yours and the 'All you need is Love' one. are they inconsistent? No, not really. I, too, love my old premie friends whenever I encounter them. They all know how welcome they are at my place; I'm always happy to see them, joke with them, talk about all sorts of other things and, oh yeah, try to deprogram them. But it's all fun, eh? Everyone's friends, no doubt, no doubt.

But here it's a different story. Here, these guys are like gnats. Mosquitoes. And, as I just asked someone in email a moment ago, does one have to feed the mosquitoes every time one goes camping? Are we talking mosquitoe rights? No, I don't think so. This is a discussion board and I've yet to see a premie offer anything I'd consider true, honest discussion. Either they whitewash the facts or they play with the reasoning but, one way or the other, they fuck around.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:34:51 (GMT)
From: annie
Email: None
To: JimHeller
Subject: all you can see is your own motives buster.[nt]
Message:
boo
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:27:17 (GMT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: speak for yourself.
Message:
you are the only person whose thoughts feelings and motives you know. so don't speak for me, thanks, and i don't even know keith.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:37:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Hey, a new-age principle! Thanks, Annie
Message:
My old friend, Annie, has returned to the page, offering more gems of new-age wisdom. For example:

you are the only person whose thoughts feelings and motives you know

Is this true? Who says? It doesn't sound true to me. I think there are a lot of people whose thoughts, feelings and motives are quite familiar to me. Conversely, I'm not so sure I even know my own half the time. But isn't it just so simple to say shit like this? Brainless and simple. Childlike, perhaps, but then that's what we're going for, right Annie?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 09:22:02 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, a new-age principle! Thanks, Annie
Message:
Jim,

I remember a time when the k was supposed to break down the barriers that divided us and caused the rifts that brought disharmony to the world. The mind was the evil thing that drew the boundaries and separated us from each other. Now correct me if I'm wrong but the 'I am you and you are me and we are all together' state of being was the desired effect we were all trying to achieve as premies wasn't it? So what is all this guff about individuality that is being proposed as an aspect of the k? I never heard any mention of that from M. Over the years I have heard k described by premies in as many ways as you care to think depending on the mood of the premie who is talking at the time. K has sometimes been described as something completely separate from the world and then again it's also the thing that allows the world to exist! Premies tell us and each other anything that sounds OK to them at the time and makes k seem plausible or an OK thing. But if you really are prepared to spend some quality time with a premie and you are confident about each other, then in some private place, well away from crowds, perhaps late in the darkness of night they might let you know what they really think - that he is the lord god and they're so totally fortunate to have him flick bogies at them and fart in their faces. Well words to that effect.

I am constantly amazed at how premies who turn up here think we haven't been there and done that. Of course we have. Jim, I can even bet you came out with some classic gobshite in your time but at least you put two and two together and jumped ship when you saw what was happening.

I have considered trying to argue with these guys but there seems to be no conclusion that could be arrived at because there is no real meaning in their words, there are no handles on it to grab onto. I have read trough Annie's satsang posts here and I'd like to be able to respond but it's all just slippery stodge - totally subjective.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:47:14 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Hey, a new-age principle! Thanks, Annie
Message:
Charlie,
Again, I don't know you either. But, I just wanted to ask you -
Why do you feel you have to argue?

Can you just talk to premies civilly (sp?) and calmly - what is this need all about - about arguing. Do you argue w/ JW's, too? I'm sincerely asking - pls, don't read sarcasm here.

It seems to me any premie that would be posting here has some stuff going on - whatever that may be that doesn't go entirely along w/ the 'main stream' premie.
So in your guys' eyes wouldn't that be possibly a future 'ex' one day?

Why argue or turn them off w/ rudeness.

To me - it doesn't make sense.

Elaine

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:49:19 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: why argue?
Message:
Hi Elaine,

Charlie,
Again, I don't know you either. But, I just wanted to ask you -
Why do you feel you have to argue?

Elaine, hi there, I guess 'argue' might seem too strong a word so let's say 'discuss'. No argue will do. What I'm saying is that when I hear or read something that I think is plain wrong I want to lodge an objection, I want to dispute it. I am not really so wound up that I will argue over anything but here on the Ex-Premie board, as it's been said repeatedly, there is a main subject and purpose. To quote AJW from a post nearer the top...

'This is a place where Ex-premies can find support when leaving a cult.
It's not a place where cult members are welcome to come and persuade people to stay in a cult, or join a cult.'

When I first posted here over a year ago I wanted answers to questions I'd never been able to get before, I wanted to discuss my dilemma with other people going through a similar thing. The forum was a fantastic help for me and the first breath of fresh air I'd had from the cult in years but I was to discover that there were times when the board had as many contributions from practising premies as exes. Sometimes the premie seemed quite upfront like Chris Dickey who used to run the 'Premie Lounge & Grill' forum (I think it was called that) he'd say his bit, have a bit of a joust and go. Then there were the anonymous but aggressive Catweasel variety who were there mostly to fight Jim, they never actually promoted anything positive about the k. Then there is the Shp variety who just drone on and on and on. This type of premie at first seems like a pleasant and intellegent enough sort, perhaps a bit 'new agey' and politically correct, they are typically passionless never losing their temper. After following their threads for a bit you realise that they are in fact of a most fixed mindset you are likely to encounter, there is never going to be an outcome to their discussions as they entered with a steely resolve and are not for moving. They seem to just want to stare you out without blinking. It would seem that the more exes getting involved in their useless and pointless banter the happier they are. In fact they can take on battalions of exes without even a hint of exhaustion - do you remember Bjorn? The upshot of all this is that they absolutely cover the place wall to wall with their limp ideas that no ex actually wants to know.

Whoever these people are they are not like the premies that I used to know back in the days when I served my time and still have good relations with. These guys are a special perversion in my opinion, they don't actually even practise k as it's supposed to be done, they have rewritten the manual. Elaine, these premie trolls who's purpose is never quite clear make me MAD!

Can you just talk to premies civilly (sp?) and calmly - what is this need all about - about arguing. Do you argue w/ JW's, too? I'm sincerely asking - pls, don't read sarcasm here.

No, civility is OK but I don't think absolutely necessary if you need to make a point.

I don't know what a w/ JW's is. I figure that w/ is an abbreviation of with. That's a helluva saving.

It seems to me any premie that would be posting here has some stuff going on - whatever that may be that doesn't go entirely along w/ the 'main stream' premie.
So in your guys' eyes wouldn't that be possibly a future 'ex' one day?

I have no worries about freaking out a would be ex if they are genuine. Go speak to Hal. When he first came to Ex-Premie.org he was about as typical a premie as you could get. He didn't like much of what he saw here at first and so he made a stand for M&K but he was not prepared to turn his back on logic. He went through a lot of changes over a period of months and is still here somewhere.

Why argue or turn them off w/ rudeness.

Elaine, it doesn't matter how rude you are to them - they're like silly putty. They just pop back into their original shape no matter how strong the battering. Having said that I don't spend much time here arguing but if others do, well I reckon that OK it's what goes on here.

To me - it doesn't make sense.

When I first came here I was after 'sense' and it was a premie who actually said straight off 'you've come to the wrong place mate'. He wasn't wrong.

BTW Elaine, did you ever visit a premie discussion forum like Chris Dicky's? It was like sitting in a geriatric ward (if you will excuse the simile).

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:55:35 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: why argue?
Message:
Thanks for posting back - and so pleasantly.

I don't know who Chris Dickey is - I've read posts that refer to a CD - so that makes more sense now.

Sorry - JW=Jehovah's Witnesses

Alot of the people you mentioned I don't know. Bjorn, I don't read - but I know people get VERY mad at him.I don't think in the premie world he would have been a 'friend' of mine.

Yes, I certainly understand what it is like talking to a brick wall. I guess after awhile I just stop - rather than get all mad and argue. Like,who cares what they think - everyone's on a different path, so? Others here have accused me of being passionless. But, who cares? Everyone is in there own reality,I don't have to get everyone to agree w/ me or be just like me.
How boring that would be anyway.

I am not a person who would want exes here to go back to M.(referring to the AJW quote). In fact last Fri a guy asked me about something - yet again - and I discouraged him from inquiring about M - I said it's too complicated and takes too long and is all involved - learn how to go inside some other way. Now, does that sound like someone who's in a cult?
People get so mad at me here - it's puzzling. Like I want to change them or something. I'm just expressing my views is all.

If they think I'm deluded then talk to me nicely. hamzen has been very helpful that way.

Re: AJW's quote - I ,of course, agree. But, I would add to that - Isn't it also a place for premies with questions or comments.

Some people here answer in a non-inflammatory way - that is so much more informative then -'You idiot - all you premies are the same - scram.' That's what I get alot. Or one word gets attacked and the whole meaning of a thought is lost bec of one word being misunderstood. It's frustrating and takes alot of patience.

So, thank you, Charlie,for taking the time and for being informative. :)

Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:19:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Great point
Message:
Charlie,

I agree with everything you said and think that's a really important point. The cult talks out of both sides of its mouth: on the one hand, its members tap into the universal consciousness that transcends and trivializes our individual minds and lives; on the other, every experience is its own unique element, rarer than a snowflake. How dumb. What can you say? How DUMB? How about How Dumb!. Hey, here's one for you (and this is jsut my own individual expression. I wouldn't wnat anyone stealing it from me. It's based on my experience, after all,

How Dumb!


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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 09:33:21 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: PS Sadly admitted
Message:
It just occured to me that I sadly admit to having been there and done that but I reckon in a late night bar with a few emollient Scotches we could have a right fucking laugh at some of the crap we've let off at times. A bit like when those fellas in the movie 'Jaws' are showing each other their embarrassing tattoos.

Whatever happend to the Latvian club?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:41:19 (GMT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Jimmy
Subject: You are an endlessly fascinating egomaniac
Message:
i guess your posts all speak for themselves, as mine ought to, i don't think we all need so much editorial comment on each other's personal first person writings. shall i go? or do i serve a happy purpose for you here?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:44:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Stick around for a while, then leave
Message:
Annie,

Ideally, you would stay for a bit, let everyone interested have a bit of a taste of what it's like trying to reason with you and then, when that's done, split. How's that sound?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:47:13 (GMT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OK you da boss, jim
Message:
i'll stick around till it starts feeling yucky to me or till
somebody spooks me real bad
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:55:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: OK, how was the program?
Message:
Did you see Maharaji this weekend? How was it? Here's a good one: did he answer all your questions?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:06:38 (GMT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: yes i saw him.
Message:
<< Here's a good one: did he answer all your questions? >>

OK that's a good question, the answer is no.
I didn't submit any to him nor have any in particular
on my mind when I was there. I believe anyhow that I
am supposed to answer my own questions. Unlike what
someone wrote below, I didn't think he was getting people
to laugh at the person who asked the questions, I more
had a sense that he was getting everyone to laugh at
their own questions. I thought he illustrated specifically
and quite well that the questions themselves contained the
answers.

That was my take on it.
it's MINE, see? you don't have to like it.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:15:26 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: So you don't have any problems with anything
Message:
about maha at all, that are fair doubts in your mind?

Are you happy that he is so useless at getting the message over,
after all I'm assuming you see k as pretty special, if he's the lord of the universe an'll?

Doesn't it disturb you that you are in very small elite group, that all these people are gonna go through life without even having the opportunity to experience him & it?

Or are your experiences all that count & the rest of the universe can go hang?

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:42:00 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Thinking
Message:
I've never been discouraged by Maharaji from thinking
for myself,

Ha ha ha. Ho ho ho. Liar.

I have heard Maharaji encourage people to question, to
think and feel for themselves.

Ha ha ha. Ho ho ho. Liar.

Knowledge in the early seventies, was all the cult thinking,
of which I too was a voluntary victim

Ha ha ha. Ho ho ho. Liar.

What do 'I' really know,
of what am 'I' certain? I must find my own answers to my
own questions. That's how I have understood it for many
many years. It has never caused a conflict for me with
how I view Maharaji,

Ha ha ha. Ho ho ho. Liar.

direct experience, feeling, is entirely
independent of thought.

Ha ha ha. Ho ho ho. Liar.

When I was young, I used to call feeling 'pure thought.'
It is a purity of awareness, clarity of understanding,
sans language, sans past and future, eyes wide open, in
the present moment.

Ah, yo mamma. What new age book did you read that one in?

Girl, you are either a pathological liar with total disregard for the truth or the most pathetic example of cult brainwashing ever to appear on this page.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:29:26 (GMT)
From: annie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: gosharootee mister wizard
Message:
well as a matter of fact, i made it all up myself.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:38:59 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: annie
Subject: Hey I remember that cartoon...
Message:
in fact I kinda looked like that skinny kid with the big glasses who would always get into trouble and beg mr wizard to pull him out just in the nick of time. And then he'd come spinning out of it and realize it was all a bad dream...

Hope you find your mr wizard soon Annie. Really.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:45:07 (GMT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hey I remember that cartoon...
Message:
i AM my mister wizard, gerry geez.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:49:03 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Hey I remember that cartoon...
Message:
That's right Annie. Why not dump the little fat guy then? Hasn't he done enough damage yet?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:50:23 (GMT)
From: annie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: because i LIKE him. duh
Message:
nt? wot
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:48:21 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thinking
Message:
Gerry, are you not tripping up again because of the unofficial ex-files. The programming that creeps in once one bounces from one extreme position to another? Really! Maharaji's carictature created by ex's like yourself is a parody and as such it is untrue. It is a LIE! He could be criticised in a way that would be balanced but it seems that many ex's are incapable of that. you are helping to perpetrate 'the ex-file' lie, imho, Gerry.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:03:19 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Calling someone a lair is going too far!
Message:
Annie is not a liar. That is disgusting Gerry. Call her misguided in your opinion. Ok. Or even an example of cultish thinking if that's what you believe. But liar, repeated again and again? Silly boy! Someone ought to kick your butt!
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:25:00 (GMT)
From: keith
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: when is a liar a lair?ot.
Message:
Liars do construct lairs. And then get stuck in them. Which is a cheap way of wriggling out of another elementary spelling error.
Will I get blocked for that? Oh...ot,ot,ot!
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:12:03 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: I didn't call her a 'lair'
Message:
I called her a 'liar.' Ha! Gotcha!

Look Keith, the lady's lying to herself. That's the worst kind of liar in my opinion. What if a fence sitter was swayed by her lies? (OK untruths.)

And it was a cut and paste job, so call me lazy, I'll cop to it.

Keith, do you really want me hurt just because of words? I guess a pie in the face might rate physical violence, but mere words on a forum? I dunno....

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:38:04 (GMT)
From: annie
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: I didn't call her a 'lair'
Message:
gerry there are times i think people are lying to
themselves but i also realize i have NO idea
and furthermore it's none of my business. guess what,
i come here with good will only. i don't want to
convince anyone of anything. and i'm not a liar,
not a lair either.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:46:21 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: annie
Subject: I didn't call her a 'lair'
Message:
OK Annie you're not a liar. I'll bet you still believe the 'Peace Bomb' satsang, though, don't you? If not, why not? Was M lying then or is he lying now about not being a leader, the chosen One?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:28:04 (GMT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: i stick out my neck, have fun
Message:
i don't remember exactly the peace bomb satsang,
but i will try to answer your question anyhow,
and tell you what i not only probably believe,
i'll tell you what i do believe, at least at
the present time.

i do believe maharaji IS lord of the universe.
every bit as much as the first day i saw his picture
and heard the news. it was at the art college in
nova scotia in 1971. prince of peace, it said.

i don't know what lord of the universe means except
i believe it's important, and worth my attention.

i do believe that we live in a really amazing time in
the evolution of humanity. i am fascinated by a zillion
things and everything is going much too fast. i want
to learn as much as possible about so many things, and
yet time and age is making me slower. i want to examine
the cycles of life from the inside out, from the point
of view of the subatomic particles. it is all too much,
i am only one small mortal human with an often tired
brain. but knowledge is the closest thing i have found
to that view of life, getting down inside one tiny particle
of existence, and seeing everything a whole new way.
does this make sense to you? if not, don't diss it, just toss it.

i do believe that maharaji is bringing peace into the
world. what else can i say? should i doubt it? but
i witness it every day.

if you are so dead set against it, then maybe you will miss it
entirely. or maybe not. and maybe it's all my imagination.
i don't honestly know. nor do i care, really.

my experiences, whatever they may be, are my personal reality.

Mine, only. Likewise your experiences are your personal reality.
is there a different reality for everyone? i believe so.
does it make any difference? My lifetime is comprised of my
experiences. If my reality is nothing more than my own
happy or unhappy imaginings, so what? Who cares? No one has
the power to take away my happiness, unless i give it up
voluntarily and empower them to do so. I believe I am
responsible one way or another for wherever I end up.

I'm not generalizing about anybody else. I am trying to learn
to quit doing that. However, one more thing I do believe.
And please, I thought this up all by myself, from observation.
I believe we are all one organism. That's why there's something
like karma. It's like this: try to kill your siamese twin, you're
going to hurt yourself. Not because there's some mystical karma
dispensers out there somewhere, measuring you your due.
But because the same blood runs through us all, it's the same
one life. This is a scientific fact, and i believe it is an important
thing not to be overlooked by ANYbody.

Don't you know. Premies become ex-premies, and become premies
again, and maybe expremies, premies, and who knows where we all
end up in the end? other than some form of dead and decomposed?

OK well one more thing I believe. That in the end, whatever
that means, there is only love. NOTHING else. This is only
a belief, but I like it alot.
Annie

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 20:33:54 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: We ALL stick our necks out here, Annie
Message:
Annie you say:

'There is only love'?

Visited Kosovo recently, have you?

And you say:

'No one has the power to take away my happiness'

You've not met my ex-girlfriend then?
(or Margaret Thatcher, or Ghengis Khan, or Stalin, or Hitler, or the Emperor Constantine, or ... or ...)

Seriously, though -

- seductive as this 'Lord of the Universe' concept is, don't you think it's an idea that needs a bit more evaluation?

Sure, if such a creature existed, we'd all (well, a few of us at least) would want to get on board his/her peace-train.

I did.

(you too?)

Trouble was, what we wanted to be the truth, and what IS the truth, are two VERY different kettles of fish.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:50:49 (GMT)
From: You name is Raina
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Isn't? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 05:22:44 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: ships in the night
Message:
Hello Annie, how are you tonight?

First up, since I haven't read your posts before, that I can recollect, are you raina reincarnated? I only ask because it seems you two passed each other on opposite sides of the revolving door of Forum Five. I spent some time and not a little of my patience conversing with her, only to end up frustrated and somewhat pissed off, so I'd rather not repeat the experience.

Having got that out of the way, I must say your post does invite criticism, doesn't it?

I don't know if I have the stamina to go point by point tonight, but one or two things caught my eye. First, if you say you don't know what 'the Lord of the Universe' is (apart from being an hilarious lampoon available on video from amazon.com) then why on earth would you accredit maharajaja with being He, or It?

Suppose I told you about a Supreme Entity - the Brahmic Virian Apostilate. Would you say maharajaja were He, or It? Well if you did you'd be rather silly because I just made that up. Why is LOTU different? A rather grand phrase which captures the imagination and begs our awe. To me it sounds to be straight from Tolkein or DC Comics® Why does the Universe need a Lord? What does he do - general asteroid maintenance and cosmic tax collection? Does he dig Black Holes? What then? Oh, he loves you...how nice.

One more for now. What do you base your statement about maharajaja bringing peace to the world on? Do you own a television set? Can you see the world's conflicts subsiding and nation harmonizing with nation? I can't. Do you credit him with the uneasy truce teatering in Northern Ireland, or with intervening in Croatia? Please help me to see your words as being anything other than vacuous party-line rhetoric, and we may just have the seeds of a stimulating discussion.

cheers,

Rob

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:28:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Good post, Rob
Message:
Annie knows better. Believe me, she knows better. She's just diving back into the cult because she doesn't know what else to do with herself. I know her well eonough to say that with something less than certainty but as more than mere speculation.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:46:01 (GMT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Stupid post, Jim
Message:
How come you know so much about everyone else
particularly people you never knew in the first
place, and you know so little about yourself?
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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:04:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: And yes, MORE new age wisdom from Annie!
Message:
Oh the mysteries of life, huh? I never knew you and indeed never knew myself. Cool, eh? I mean, wow, that's so profound, isn't it? 'You never knew me! You didn't even know yourself!' Like, wow, like in a play or something. Like, maybe even a movie. Coool!
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:25:42 (GMT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: ships in the night
Message:
Rob wrote:

<are you raina reincarnated?>>

I am not raina. I don't know her, have read only a few of her
posts and never enough to have a clue about her.

<< Why is LOTU different? A rather grand phrase which captures
the imagination and begs our awe. To me it sounds
to be straight from Tolkein or DC Comics® Why does the Universe need
a Lord? >>

I don't expect it to be logical, and I really cannot defend my
beliefs with anything tangible enough for someone else
to relate to it, so i don't even try. it is only my personal
belief. It may mean nothing.

<< What do you base your statement about maharajaja
bringing peace to the world on? >>

I have seen the positive effect in my life of knowledge.
I see Maharaji's efforts. Whether he will succeed or not, ie
in bringing peace to the 'whole world' I have no idea. But I
see a relentless effort to reach as many people as possible,
at the very least to offer them a possibility.

I also see here on the forum the positive effect of Knowledge.
Many people here believe they have wised up and walked away
from a dangerous cult.
Yet it was they themselves who walked in, in the first place.
Cult and all. Absurd concepts and all. Ridiculous rituals and all.
Preposterous beliefs and all. Self-sacrifice and all.
In my experience truth does not mix with nonsense.
I believe that everyone who received Knowledge was affected
positively by it, one way or another. i believe it leads people
to walk away from their own gullibility, their own robotics,
and become original again. Raunchy as it may get at times,
I find that much on this forum is refreshing, because
people are not pretending. I still find that I cannot relate
to many premies when they talk about knowledge and
maharaji. It's not important to me, I want my own personal
understanding, whatever it may be.

But I believe that practicing Knowledge is what led me to leave
the ashram, well before they closed, even though I had once thought
I would stay there for the rest of my life. Knowledge itself is what
led me to start thinking for myself, I'm certain of it. I felt
compelled to distance myself from the community, to explore
my own needs, talents, understanding, etc. independent of
Divine Light Mission, Elan Vital, rites and rituals, discipline and
dogma. To reconnect with my family, to recognize there is
so much I can learn anywhere, any time, from anyone. A time came
for me when, even though I still wanted to believe certain things,
I just couldn't. COULDN'T.

The only difference I think between me and 'exes' is that I continued
to respect & value maharaji as teacher. mentor. 'Lord of The Universe'
An extraordinary teacher. He inspires me. He makes me laugh, he makes
me think. I get energized and I feel nourished at a cellular level
when i see Maharaji.

I don't feel like I have to agree with everything he says, nor do
I. From him, as a 'master' I have always heard this: that what I am
looking for is inside of me. I have also lived this, I know it to
be true. And it's magical. What else can I say? I don't associate
with new age people nor with premies, hardly, nor with expremies.
Most of the people in my life over the last 15 years barely
even know about Maharaji. I DO think this stuff up myself.
I DO believe it's good. I DO believe I have to answer my own
questions. and I like Maharaji, alot.

Also I don't see any real point in ripping apart another person's
perspective. i will not impose mine on you, particularly if you
don't want it. that's the origin of wars. Once upon a time I would
have. That's how I see peace eeeking into the world. through me,
through you.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:17:20 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: 'relentless effort' ????
Message:
...to reach as many people as possible'

I disagree,annie.
Had this conversation w/ the aspirant contact here. She says the same thing. That's why 120 people received k after 2-3 yrs of waiting along the whole West Coast. That isn't 'relentless effort' to me.

Let's see - he's lived in Malibu - how many years now?
Let's see how many hundreds of thousands of people live in say... Santa Cruz or San Fransisco or let's take Seattle - we'll ignore LA itself if you'd like?

120 people from Denver to Phoenix to LA - doesn't sound like he's doing a very great job at it, does it?

I got my friend thinking for sure.

I'm not being antagonistic - it's just not looking to good on the propogation front,to me.

Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:10:58 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: The last shall be first.
Message:
Good afternoon Annie, I hope your day has been pleasant.

There is much in your post which begs attention, but I thought I'd start with the last paragraph, and get that out of the way first. It read:

Also I don't see any real point in ripping apart another person's perspective. i will not impose mine on you, particularly if you don't want it. that's the origin of wars. Once upon a time I would have. That's how I see peace eeeking into the world. through me, through you.

Well I hope you didn't see my mild (trust me, that was mild) critical review of two of your points as 'ripping apart (your) perspective'. This is a forum. You volunteer your beliefs, thoughts, opinions etc and other people pop up and either support them or take issue with them. Pretty basic, don't you think? So if you object to a bit of healthy critique and probing of your beliefs, isn't it rather silly to air them here?

That being the case, why did you bother? To write a lengthy post containing a collection of shiny ideas any magpie would be proud of, with the proviso that it should stand unsullied by examination, makes me think perhaps you enjoy a bit of preaching! Am I right?:)

Anyway, I'll read through your post again a couple more times and be back later.

cheers

Rob

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 23:27:04 (GMT)
From: annie
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: The last shall be first.
Message:
Rob wrote:
<< Well I hope you didn't see my mild (trust me, that was mild) critical review of two of your points as 'ripping apart (your) perspective'. >>

No i didn't see it that way, i thought you were extremely
careful and respectful. I meant to be speaking more in
general -- referring to what often takes place here on the
forum when people ex or non ex are expressing their
thoughts and feelings and end up feeling ripped up
or unrighteously attacked. you were asking me about
how I saw peace happening, I meant to be addressing
that.

<< This is a forum. You volunteer your beliefs, thoughts, opinions etc and other people pop up and either support them or take issue with them. Pretty basic, don't you think? So if you object to a bit of healthy critique and probing of your beliefs, isn't it rather silly to air them here? >>

I don't object.
I've written before and will say again, that I benefit
from having myself challenged, I learn from people who
are honest with themselves and when i come here and post
something, I've learned what to expect.
Annie

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:33:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Okay, here's why I disrespect premies
Message:
In her post above, Annie says:

i do believe maharaji IS lord of the universe.
every bit as much as the first day i saw his picture
and heard the news. it was at the art college in
nova scotia in 1971. prince of peace, it said.

i don't know what lord of the universe means except
i believe it's important, and worth my attention.

(I take it the bad punctuation, using small letters instead of cap's, is a sign of a wild and crazy streak of individuality)

But in a long and tedious email exchange Annie and I had last year, she emphatically denied believing any such thing! Moreover, she tried to deny that Maharaji had ever claimed as much. If he did, she opinied, he was young.

Now you tell me how in the world one can take a person like this seriously. Or trust them for a moment. Anyone?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:56:16 (GMT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: who cares if you disrespect premies?
Message:
Jim WROTE:
<< (I take it the bad punctuation, using small letters instead
of cap's, is a sign of a wild and crazy streak of individuality) >>

I reply: WRONG ASSUMPTION: it is a sign of laziness and lack of
interest in going to alot of trouble to follow rules that
i don't care about.

Jim SEZ: << But in a long and tedious email exchange
Annie and I had last year, she emphatically denied believing
any such thing! Moreover, she tried to deny that Maharaji
had ever claimed as much. If he did, she opinied, he was young. >>

I retort: NONSENSE. I have copies of every word I ever
wrote to you in an email. You are confusing me with
your own concepts of what premies say for which you don't
respect them.

Jim pleads:
<< Now you tell me how in the world one can take a person
like this seriously. Or trust them for a moment. Anyone? >>

I replies: I am someone. I take me seriously, and like me, also i
trust me for a moment at a time at least.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:16:14 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: I didn't call her a 'lair'
Message:
Oh come on Gerry...you know better than that. Mere words on the forum? Maharaji's mere words? Anyones mere words? Raina's mere words? What, suddenly your mere words don't matter much?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:20:58 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: I didn't call her a 'lair'
Message:
Yes Keith, mere words. I mean no one ever kick Goober's butt for the garbage he spews did they?

Tell ya what I can do for ya. Ever see the move Fight Club? I could do one of those numbers on myself if that will make you happy...

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:25:29 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I didn't call her a 'lair'
Message:
Gerry , just a little humble pie will be enough, thanks.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:00:03 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: can you be more specific?
Message:
Jees Keith, this poor person is just plain sucked in, hook, line and sinker. Just trying to do a verbal 'face-squeeze' on her.

I don't know what the unofficial ex files are, how about helping me out there.

Keith, I'm reading a good book called Logical Thinking: A Functional Approach perhaps you...nah you don't want to go there. Might bust your balloon.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:06:49 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: can you be more specific?
Message:
Even more specific, Gerry? Don't you see for heavens sake just how untrue and inappropriate your use of the word 'liar' is? You can try to justify this by saying your'e trying to do a verbal squeeze on Annie. What the heck does that mean? Be more specific yourself. be more logical. You are reading a book about logical thinking. Sounds like you need to.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:17:16 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Ladies you'll like this one...
Message:
It's true. It's a book I wish I had read years ago.

Maybe you're not in the mood, but another REALLY good book is Spiritual Vampires by Marty Raphael, herself one of the female species. And I swear I had no idea how it would.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:28:34 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: anybody who gives a shit
Subject: last sentence should end with 'end' nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 18:48:17 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: At a time like this, FA??? pulleeeeezzzzz ...
Message:
So today's current administrator saw fit to wipe as in erase as in CENSOR all of Raina's posts. AND our replies to her.

FUCK.

FUCK.


FUCK.

And all without one word of explanation.

To think that we accuse the Maha of being offhand with the way he ignores his critics.

AND to think that we think ill of him censoring OUR sites when the FAs (apt acronym that is not) do exactly the same with someone whose opinions they don't want to hear.

Bad move, ex-premie.org Forum V.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:32:24 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Why oh why don't the FAs do THIS!!!
Message:
Why not have a permanent link to The ANYTHING GOES Forum from this forum, as you've done with other sites and then put a note on this forum saying that The ANYTHING GOES Forum is the place to go for off topic or flaming posts etc.

Over on The ANYTHING GOES Forum, flaming and bad language is positively encouraged and arguments are a spectator sport enjoyed by all. Nothing is off topic there and there's no rules and no censorship of posts or blocks.

So why don't you do this? It would solve a lot of problems.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:17:11 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: a simple answer
Message:
Because the rainas of the world need an audience Sir Dave.
Your idea is right on. But they will always always go for the
forum where they will be noticed and responded to the most.
Just my opinion. And anyway who says she is really gone?

and no I ain't her! (have been asked that in email, something about 'writing style' sheesh as Katie says!)

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:38:30 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: a simple answer
Message:
But people would have more of an audience on The ANYTHING GOES Forum if there was a permanent link to it from this forum with a note telling people to go there for flame wars, arguments and off topic stuff.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 06:33:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: but also ps to dave
Message:
I never thought the link to your site should have been removed.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 02:42:17 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: (Sir) David
Subject: Why oh why don't the FAs do THIS!!! YES!
Message:
I agree wholeheartedly,YES. And I always wandered why there wasn't a link,Sir Dave.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:01:52 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I agree
Message:
. She was not given adequate warning. Was she warned at all?
. There were a lot of responses to raina's posts, which were also off-topic.
. She could have been simply ignored.
. There are a lot of off-topic threads here.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:46:58 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: At a time like this, FA??? pulleeeeezzzzz ...
Message:
VERY VERY VERY BAD MOVE F.A!!!!
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:48:48 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: At a time like this, FA??? pulleeeeezzzzz ...
Message:
Keith,
I think the FA knows something we don't.They would e-mail you about it, if you wanted.

Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:52:00 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: vayukeith@netscape.net
To: Elaine
Subject: At a time like this, FA??? pulleeeeezzzzz ...
Message:
Thanks Elaine. If that's the case would F.A please e-mail me. I would appreciate that.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:15:09 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Thank you, FA
Message:
Raina contributed nothing and disrupted everything. Her posts just took up space. There wasn't one redeeming point in her posts and I'm happy someone took action.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:50:04 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Thank you, FA
Message:
There is no such justification for me Powerman.
Raina did have many redeeming points in her posts ,imo. She told it like it was, for her! The e.p.o can only be severly damaged every time it deals with someone who it deems a pest in this way, I feel.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:10:51 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Thank you, FA
Message:
Okay then, tell me about Raina, I mean in relation to maharaji. Was she a premie? Did she think knowledge worked? Did she have any misgivings about maharaji or his organization? Did she support it?

And since she never said anything substantial about any of that, what did she say that was substantial about anything?

Do you think it's possible she intended to be disruptive?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:14:13 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Thank you, FA
Message:
I can't answer your questions powerman. I don't know. But ex's here discuss a very wide range of issues. To suddenly start making noises about what is or should be allowed and what is off topic is I find highly selective and very biased. Double standards. Not good.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:33:32 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Thank you, FA
Message:
Exactly right, you don't know. That's because all Raina did was blow up water baloons. And she did it so much that people got really tired of her, especially the FA, who's job it is to keep some semblance of order.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:09:17 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: Thank you very much, FA
Message:
I must admit that I stopped reading rainas posts at least four weeks ago. Prior to that I did not once see that she was trying to be anything other than desruptive. This resulted in cyber reams of matters discussed that had nothing what so ever to do with the reason that the forum exists. Fair enough, OT threads are at times appropriate but it always seemed to me that her main endeavour was to be a total pain in the arse and, you must admit, she sure succeeded. It's just a pity that even now that she has gone, so much time and space is still being devoted to her. I'd like to buy the FA a drink or three.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:00:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Bullshit, Keith -- You're lucky it wasn't you
Message:
Keith,

This is still an ex-premie forum. It's not Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park. It's not an experiment in civil liberties. It's not a commons. Or, if it is, it's an ex-premie commons. There is absolutely no credibility problem triggered by moderating the forum and, if necessary, getting rid of disruptive people who aren't into discussing Maharaji.

Furthermore, any Maharaji apologist like you, for instance posts here at the pleasure of the exes. That's just the way it is. Weren't you the one who had your number of posts a day limited? Was that you or was it Shp? In any case, if I were running the show I'd put you on notice that if you kept starting one insidiously dumb thread after another, you'd be inviting that kind of restriction.

But not to worry, Keith, you can always go post on any of the thousands of spiritual / new age forums where you really belong. You know that.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 01:18:49 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Exactly, 'I'd put you on notice'
Message:
but unless I missed it, there was no notice for raina
and neither is that a rule of the site either
and neither has there been a discussion of it

personally, and you must have seen some of my discussions with keith recently, I'd like to be able to vote, on yellow cards, warnings etc

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:10:15 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bullshit, Keith -- You're lucky it wasn't you
Message:
Just wondering. Am I or any other 'new age dreamer' allowed to differ in opinion with your above post, jim? Or are your thoughts a part of some official E.P.O philosophy?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:11:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: What do you think? (nt)
Message:
hhhh
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:18:39 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Typing in tandem!
Message:
look above you!
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:53:05 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Keith, didn't you experience this?
Message:
Being blocked, that is? How did you feel?
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:59:39 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Keith, didn't you experience this?
Message:
Gerry. Yes I did. So did Mili and I don't know how many others.
How did it feel? At the time, I was enraged for a while. But I grew through it. In hindsight, I feel I went too far in my reactions to very hostile and antoganistic posts directed at me over a long period of time. But my own posts certainly contributed to that. In warfare every one is cupable to some degree, imo. Raina did not break one of the golden rules, which I did. That is using many different psudonyms. Or she quickly corrected that when it was requested.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:04:50 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Keith, didn't you experience this?
Message:
Hell, I half expect to get the ole heave ho myself. I'm a pretty bad boy at times.

Maybe a temporary block with the 'offender' told the length of their 'sentence' might work in cooling things off. What do think?

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:09:24 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Keith, didn't you experience this?
Message:
No gerry. Too open to abuse. I think that open discussions like this about this issue is a good start. Perhaps if someone goes too far consistently according to 'spelt out' guidelines then some type of refurendum could occur. How about a bit of forum democracy? After appropriate open debate.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:43:09 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Keith, didn't you experience this?
Message:
No gerry. Too open to abuse. I think that open discussions like this about this issue is a good start. Perhaps if someone goes too far consistently according to 'spelt out' guidelines then some type of refurendum could occur. How about a bit of forum democracy? After appropriate open debate.


Abuse by whom? Keith you like to talk things to death. Why not just put the offender in the 'time out' box to chill for a few days?

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:53:34 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Keith, didn't you experience this?
Message:
Gerry, I believe in talking things to clarity, not death.
Rather than throwing empty or half baked platitudes and emotive opinions about. There is a jump on the bandwagon tendency here as I find in almost all group type forums. Don't you feel that your impulsive reactions like the one above to Annie contribute little or nothing to useful debate? Is there an ignore or abuse a debate to death tendency here?
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:05:00 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Keith, didn't you experience this?
Message:
Keith this is YOU big time: ...throwing empty or half baked platitudes and emotive opinions about.

Sorry to have to say it as I like you personally. Heck I was even warming up to raina in her last few post. We were actually starting to talk to each other. Not that I'm sorry to see her go, but I think a few days off for her, and then to allow her access would have done us all good.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:35:13 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: But it's the PRINCIPLE, man
Message:
It's NOT OK to silence one's critics like this.

If it's OK for ex-premie.org, it's OK for Rawat???

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:08:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Bullshit, Chris
Message:
Chris,

With all due respect, I have to say you're looking at this issue all wrong. No one's 'silencing' raina. She's just gettign kicked off the page. She's free to start up her own page, post whatever she wants on AG or elsewhere or anything else of the sort. What she's not allowed to do is takeover or disrupt the conversation here with nothing but incediary, off-topic posts. If there isn't some control here, the place loses its value and its value, I can assure you, is not as model of unfettered free speech regardless of the effect on the overall discussion. It's value is as a clearing house on information about Maharaji and as a forum for actual discussion about him and his goop.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 19:59:00 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's worse than that Jim, it's revisionist ...
Message:
It worse than silencing Jim, it's revisionist ... I say block her if needs be, but let the archives stand as a true record (unless legally inadvisable).

You say:
'What she's not allowed to do is takeover or disrupt the conversation here with nothing but incendiary, off-topic posts.'

Jim, if the guidelines are going to be changed, the least the FAs could do is inform posters about this.

At present, the following is all that appears to be given in relation to blocking:

From the Forum Guidelines

(Jeez, you probably wrote the damn things. Anyway:)


' A certain amount of talking and joking about subjects that are unrelated to Maharaji does happen on the forum. We don't encourage or discourage this.

Try to be reasonably civil when posting messages on the Forum, but be aware that 'flaming' does occur here at times.

We actively discourage making violent threats of ANY kind, or posting under another person's name or pseudonym. Any posts that violate these simple rules may be deleted or edited by us.

Repeat offenses will result in a block being placed on the orignating (sic) service provider's IP address, causing posts submitted from that location to be discarded. If you choose to participate in the Forum, you must post responsibly.'

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:24:10 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: In that case Jim..
Message:
Then why didn't you or others not persist in trying to bring the discussion back to Maharaji, etc. And furthermore, Jim, you have often begun threads or participated in threads that are off main topic. Like this one here. Where or for who does one draw the line. And who draws?
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:54:13 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: But it's the PRINCIPLE, man
Message:
totally agree with you cq, unless there are very special reasons. F.A should inform us if there are.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:49:48 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: But it's the PRINCIPLE, man
Message:
No, naturally it isn't okay to criticize the guru for something you do yourself. But that isn't what's happening here.

Raina posts weren't deleted because she presented an opposing view, they were deleted because she's abusing this forum. In fact, an effective opposing view would be more welcome than that drivel she constantly writes.

The guru-fat-hamster gets criticized because he runs a cult, rips people off and accepts no criticism. That doesn't mean this forum should have absolutely no control or restrictions.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:02:38 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: But it's the PRINCIPLE, man
Message:
Very weak argument powerman. What exactly is the criteria for abusing this forum? According to who? If there is a definate criteria then we should all be clearly told about that and should all need to adhere to that without exception.
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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:26:50 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: But it's the PRINCIPLE, man
Message:
The criteria for abusing this forum, in Raina's case, is hijacking the discussion. As Jim mentioned, this isn't the town hall; it's a forum primarily for ex-premies and primarily to discuss maharaji and his organization. Ultimately it's controlled by the Forum Administrator, and like it or not, we're all guests here. If you start pouring Daquiri's over people's heads, you're likely going to get tossed out.

Raina's posts were a special case, not because she was special, but because of the effect they had on the discussion. She was turning the forum into a cheap saloon.

Now that wouldn't matter, probably, if you didn't feel seriously that maharaji has committed some severe violations. And you can probably measure peoples' dislike for Raina's posts by their distaste for maharaji; not because she was against maharaji but because she was disrupting the purpose of this forum.

And if I might say, Keith, you aren't one to talk about effective arguments.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:30:09 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: But it's the PRINCIPLE, man
Message:
And if I might say, Keith, you aren't one to talk about effective
arguments.

Does that mean you disagree with my views? Or that you put yourself above me in terms of reasonable discussion? Just wondering!

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 00:40:56 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: But it's the PRINCIPLE, man
Message:
I don't put myself above you but I think your reasoning is clouded by New Age platitudes.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:19:50 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: POWman
Subject: opposing 'absolutely no control or restrictions'?
Message:
opposing 'absolutely no control or restrictions'?

Is that how censorship justifies itself?


Some control. Yes. What control? What restriction?

I suggest this:

Leave the posts that Raina has submitted (AND our replies to her) for the archives to present an accurate record.

Suggest to her that she posts on 'Anything Goes' and that anyone wishing to converse with her should do likewise. (OK with you Sir Dave?)

Imagine, POWman, that she TOO deserves to know what it's like to be free from the Maha.

(Oh fuck, what am I? her saviour or something? Shit no.
PRINCIPLES.
Conviction - courage of etc.)

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 22:00:20 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: spot on cq, couldn't agree more
Message:
Nigel in response to me, a couple of threads down has given a more detailed response of how this partial control might work, and has worked before.

I would also add that this topic area has been the major weakness of this site in my opinion, and unless we sort out an agreed position will keep coming up over & over again.

As someone who has been censored here, without as far as I could see, breaking any agreed guidelines, the feeling of abuse that came up for me was just a tad ironic considering the topic of the site (MAJOR understatement).

I'm gonna stop now before certain out-of-control emotions start surfacing, from back then

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:02:40 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: spot on cq, couldn't agree more
Message:
Hi Ham,

Please, can you explain how you were censored? Thanks.

SB

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 04:02:51 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: spot on cq, couldn't agree more
Message:
I had an innocuous post that was quite plainly a joke objected to by a single premie with a humour by-pass, and it was removed without any consultation with me.

I refused to accept this and reposted and was subjected to verbal abuse on the forum by one of the fa's at the time, in a manner and tone that was truly obnoxious. It was made quite plain to me that my thought's on the subject were a complete irrelevance & basically if I didn't like it I could fuck off, and that I had absolutely no rights in the matter.

The ironic thing is that during the exchanges with the fa's, where I explained the post at sub-kindergarten level, the premie apologized for the misunderstanding.

I found the episode shocking, and even now writing about it a lot of emotions come up.

That's my interpretation, I'm sure the fa concerned saw the whole episode completely differently, but the one word that came up was
the one cq used in his/her post, 'principles'. The concept was ridiculed by the fa, and used in a number of his posts over the following few days in an ironic tone. Whether this was deliberate or not I have no idea, but I found it very demeaning, power issues etc especially in the light of the subject matter of this site.

The joke was about gm being assassinated by a premie. In no way could it have been read as a threat, and no-one but this premie saw it as such.

I do hope that you don't see me as condoning rainas behaviour here, personally she was starting to get to me, exploded yesterday, it's the issues around from a wider perspective. On a regular basis this has come up here and I feel there has never been clear guidelines or agreements about how to deal with blockings, deletions etc
The fa's have an unenvianble task, especially since it is all voluntary, but that just increases the need for guidelines/agreements etc to protect them as much as anyone else, or the site.

Personally I would have liked it if you could have started a thread knowing that there were procedures that would have blocked her by general agreement, voting or whatever.
Democratic principles are crucial, especially bearing in mind the
benevolent fascist tendencies of people like the great maha.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 19:57:07 (GMT)
From: S
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: spot on cq, couldn't agree more
Message:
You said:

I do hope that you don't see me as condoning rainas behaviour here, personally she was starting to get to me, exploded yesterday, it's the issues around from a wider perspective. On a regular basis this has come up here and I feel there has never been clear guidelines or agreements about how to deal with blockings, deletions etc
The fa's have an unenvianble task, especially since it is all voluntary, but that just increases the need for guidelines/agreements etc to protect them as much as anyone else, or the site.

I agree that further guidelines can benefit everybody. I saw that Raina's posts were bothering many and since it happened before a solution can be nice...Pestering like hers is very annoying, obviously.

When I visited Robyn she received a cassette from you: I liked 'your' music.

Chau,

S

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 23:37:23 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk
To: S
Subject: When I first visited here, and heard the music
Message:
people were into I would never have believed how many people here are appreciating this stuiff, and considering that they are in their forties even more surprizing.
Over time, I've met very few over forties, leading traditional lives, who could even be in the room with this stuff playing, let alone enjoy it. One woman at work, only has to hear a couple of bars, and she breaks out into aggressive mode, very curious.

Included e-mail add, if you fancy doing tape swaps, etc

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 05:27:25 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: When I first visited here, and heard the music
Message:
Great. Have you used Napster? Music is my hobby number one. I've collected 1.400 songs from there. Please, get my email address from Robyn and we can talk about swaping. Thanks.
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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:11:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: I'll trade, Ham
Message:
Ham,

Send me some music and I'll send you a band CD when we finally get some pressed this summer (we're working on it now).

By the way, have you seen High Fidelity, yet? Stephen Frear's movie from a book originally set in England but changed to Chicago about the rock 'purist' who runs a record shop with a couple of snob / geeks and muses why all his girlfriends left him? Saw it last night. It was great; sure you'd like it.

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 23:06:22 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: spot on cq, couldn't agree more
Message:
You too ham? I wonder just how many people have been blocked or censored on this supposedly uncensored forum. This I agree is a major weakness and somewhat hypocritical.
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 20:51:44 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: opposing 'absolutely no control or restrictions'?
Message:
Imagine, POWman, that she TOO deserves to know what it's like to be free from the Maha.

If I recall correctly, nobody was really sure just what her affiliation with the the Maha was, if any. Do you know?

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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 21:52:03 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: raina profile
Message:
From my reading of her, which is decidedly doubtful in terms of accuracy, she WAS pretty cagey after all around kn & m, I'm certain we're talking split personality

and I'm certain, even if she denied it (more than likely even if it was true) that, part of her, was gaining something from being here,

she might have been incredibly shifty in terms of maha, but the psych'l leakage was pretty coherent & constant in my opinion, and I recognized enough patterns in her responses that were familiar in myself from when I'd left but hadn't realized it.
Mind you those processes took me nearly ten years to work through.

That's a thought, ten years of raina working her stuff through here! But then being here would have saved me so much time and I would definitely have been more defensive around k, and maybe even m than I actually was, until I'd sorted it.

I had her as a renegade prem a la mili (back a bit, not as he is now), I suspect someone like myself for whom the practices had worked at quite a deep level, stuck in a midway zone.
In some ways, and this might just be self-absorbtion, leaving when it had worked for you is trickier than when it hadn't, not more difficult, just trickier.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 03:49:57 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: djrayovac@aol.com
To: ham
Subject: raina profile
Message:
She's an ex-aspirant with a soft spot for M- likes to blame the people around him for 'misconceptions' we may have.

Drop me a line, I lost your email.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 07:13:56 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Enforcing time-out for Raina is compassionate.
Message:
Whatever her reasons for bieng here she was emotionally frayed and it was getting worse
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Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 19:11:22 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: At a time like this, FA??? pulleeeeezzzzz ...
Message:
When you remove a parent thread - you lose the children thats a function of the forum software and has been previouly stated.
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