JtF -:- Rawat's 'Hooves-on' approach to propogation -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 11:07:03 (GMT)

__ Lotus Eater -:- Rawat's 'Hooves-on' approach to propogation -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 22:14:53 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- One more time taking premies for a ride -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:01:26 (GMT)

__ __ JtF -:- One more time taking premies for a ride/I agree -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:19:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- One more time taking premies for a ride/I agree -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 00:54:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- It worked one time, and NEVER AGAIN! -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:49:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- And a few more attempts -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:56:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- and even more hints -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:15:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Exactly J-M, and if his ego wasn't so large -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:06:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ JtF -:- 200,000 in the West!-bad teacher -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:25:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Yes he's the Lord of the Universe, in the guise of -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:14:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- This is not HIS opinion: we ARE saved! -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:34:16 (GMT)

Rob -:- Annie's post - worth a second look -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 03:09:56 (GMT)

__ Stonor -:- What was that about the Church of Virus? (ot) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 00:35:37 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- What was that about the Church of Virus? (ot) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 01:09:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ Stonor -:- What was that about the Church of Virus? (ot) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 01:45:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Think I found the forum -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:11:25 (GMT)

__ Bobby -:- OT - just some personal perspectives -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 18:46:43 (GMT)

__ __ Elaine -:- OT - just some personal perspectives -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:30:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ SB -:- just some personal perspectives -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:31:23 (GMT)

__ Way -:- To Rob, on conversing with premies -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:01:23 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- I strongly disagree, Way -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:34:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ Way -:- Re:I strongly disagree, Way -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 19:43:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Why oh why is there only the two options -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:31:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re:I strongly disagree, Way -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:16:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- To Jerry -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:51:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Han -:- Well said ,Way -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 23:10:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Han! You came back! -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 03:12:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Well said ,Way -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:33:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- Way, what are you smoking? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 20:41:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- To cq, on Logos and logic -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 21:20:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Logos and logic -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 21:27:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Admonitions of Ma'at -:- Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 04:36:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ Annie -:- Jim why don't you write about yourself for once. -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:39:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Are you going to send me the emails or not? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:45:10 (GMT)

__ annie -:- humongous ego, you are correct -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:58:28 (GMT)

__ __ Rob -:- humongous ego, you are correct -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:28:31 (GMT)

__ Annie -:- Annie's post - worth a second look -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:43:52 (GMT)

__ __ Rob -:- Well I won't labor the point much further -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:53:56 (GMT)

__ Stonor -:- Thanks Rob - and Jim G Hal Katie and . . . -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:39:05 (GMT)

__ __ Runamok -:- Three cheers for Dostoevski -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 06:33:27 (GMT)

__ Elaine -:- Annie's post - worth a second look -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:19:44 (GMT)

__ __ annie -:- No Harm Farm -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:47:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Elaine -:- No Harm Farm -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:35:47 (GMT)

rick -:- Egypt -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:04:52 (GMT)

__ Gilead -:- Egypt -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:09:36 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- There has been a bunch of premies there -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:38:04 (GMT)

cq -:- No flies on M, sez O -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 20:19:27 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- Might 'O' be 'URL'? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:30:02 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- 'burdensome ideas about Knowledge' - thanks to M -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 19:34:31 (GMT)

__ __ Know It All -:- Might 'O' be 'URL'? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:52:40 (GMT)

__ JohnT -:- Magical, evil, stinking thinking -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:04:58 (GMT)

george s. -:- jethro and jim -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 18:31:44 (GMT)

Deputy Dog -:- hamzen - You're barking up the wrong tree dog -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 18:25:31 (GMT)

__ hamzen -:- Do you realize ther full implication of what you -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:35:10 (GMT)

__ __ annie -:- the main message -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 19:48:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ hamzen -:- the main message -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:22:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ annie -:- i AM an ex-cult member. not an ex-premie. -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 18:28:04 (GMT)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Do you realize the full implication of what you -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:32:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ hamzen -:- Yes, but could someone not following gm experience -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 09:00:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ hamzen -:- Now you're being disengenuous (sp?) -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 07:14:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Han -:- Now WHO'S being disengenuous (sp?) -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:42:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Where to start han, where to start!? -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:00:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And what's YOUR death going to be like, Han? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:49:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Han, -:- And what's YOUR death going to be like, Han? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 18:36:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, -- and what's with the comma's? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 18:41:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Han -:- Peace~ -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 18:55:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Fuck off -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 19:07:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ elaine -:- Now you're being disengenuous (sp?) -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:42:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Now you're being disengenuous (sp?) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:45:35 (GMT)

__ __ Elaine -:- Do you realize ther full implication of what you -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:24:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ hamzen -:- Do you realize ther full implication of what you -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:28:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Do you realize ther full implication of what you -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:37:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ SB -:- SO TRUE!! nt -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:10:36 (GMT)

__ __ hamzen -:- In fact thinking about it further , you're using -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:51:15 (GMT)

__ JohnT -:- You're barking -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:10:10 (GMT)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- You're barking -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:34:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ JohnT -:- You're barking -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 18:00:25 (GMT)

__ Anne -:- hamzen - You're barking up the wrong tree dog -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:08:11 (GMT)

__ __ Elaine -:- Is Anne - the annie/Annie from below? NT -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:30:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ Robyn -:- Is Anne - the annie/Annie from below? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:53:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Anne not annie -:- Is Anne - the annie/Annie from below? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 18:28:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Oh, wow London -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 01:37:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ Anne -:- Is Anne - the annie/Annie from below? NT -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:49:28 (GMT)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Thanks for sharing your experience Anne (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:36:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Anne -:- Thanks for sharing your experience Anne (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:02:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- London, confusing in and of itself :) -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:55:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ Hal -:- Yikes,they miss satsang so much they're.. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:56:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ annie -:- Yikes,they miss satsang so much they're.. -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:30:57 (GMT)

gErRy -:- News Flash! Archival Goober tapes resurface !!! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:49:49 (GMT)

__ (Sir) David -:- News Flash! Archival Goober tapes resurface !!! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:48:17 (GMT)

Herr Gerr -:- Keith's doing it again -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:37:22 (GMT)

__ Herr Keith -:- old habits die hard! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:48:47 (GMT)

__ __ gerry -:- old habits die hard! -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:55:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ Keith -:- new age techniques, gerry. -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:02:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mick aka Harry aka Keith -:- Hi Gerry -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:27:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- M/H/K/ huh? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:50:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- M/H/K/ huh? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 03:31:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- M/H/K/ huh? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:23:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- yep. I am I. NT.OT. -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 05:50:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Frank Copraphiliac -:- Elaine, may I suggest -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:10:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Elaine, may I suggest -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:52:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- M/H/K/ huh? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:46:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- M/H/K/ huh? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:24:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harryji -:- Um, er..... Elaine -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:10:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Harrysan!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 18:00:54 (GMT)

Mili -:- Deprogramming -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 11:27:17 (GMT)

__ JohnT -:- Deprogramming -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 20:43:15 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Child Abuse -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:33:20 (GMT)

__ __ Mili -:- Child Abuse -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:40:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ VP -:- A word on churches as cults-Mili -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:39:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ (Sir) David -:- I think I'll join up but then... -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:27:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mili -:- I think I'll join up but then... -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:38:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ (Sir) David -:- Not much of a cult then is it -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:29:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Not much of a cult then is it -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:03:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Ha ha ha, phase two has arrived!!! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:33:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Not much of a cult then is it -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:35:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- SB from other threads -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:08:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Not much of a cult then is it -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:54:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Not much of a cult then is it -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 19:24:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Not much of a cult then is it -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 20:38:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Not much of a cult then is it -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:16:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Fun? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:53:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Fun? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 00:47:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Fun? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 21:10:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- Maharaji and Child Abuse -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:18:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mili -:- Premies and Moonies -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:15:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Premies and Moonies -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:14:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- See the premie dodge the difficult question -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:04:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- See the premie dodge the difficult question -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:54:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- See the premie dodge the difficult question -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 09:10:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Wants to know about -:- Jagdeo and Child Abuse Accusations -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:38:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Jagdeo and Child Abuse Accusations -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:52:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Still wants to know about -:- Jagdeo and Child Abuse Accusations -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:06:57 (GMT)

__ __ Just curious -:- Qestion to Anth -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:42:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- Qestion to Anth -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:44:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Just curious -:- What happened? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:06:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- What happened? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:17:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Just curious -:- What happened? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:36:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- What happened? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:19:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Just curious -:- Would you please answer Anth? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:49:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Would you please answer Jc? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:56:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Just curious -:- Would you please answer Anth? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:12:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Apparently Maharaji's got the answer -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:06:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Would you please answer Anth? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:01:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Not curious anymore -:- YOU ARE A COWARD, ANTH -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:00:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Oh yeah... -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 12:38:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Not very curious -:- Oh yeah...Anth -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 12:59:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- You answer mine, I'll answer yours -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:30:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Curious about -:- how pathetic you can be Anth -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:50:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Could be worse mate... -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:04:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Not curious -:- Could be worse mate... -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 22:12:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Could be worse mate... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 10:08:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Healing -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:14:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Deeper person... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:32:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Not curious -:- Thanks for your kind words Elaine (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:36:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- that is a hard thing... -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 23:39:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Not Curious -:- Thanks Susan it is a hard thing... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:31:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- You have the most patience....NT -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:40:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Curious about -:- how you stand here -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:24:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Anth -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:54:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ No more curious -:- + reply to Susan -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 19:37:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- It's Fucking Bjorn, the pedophile himself !!! -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 20:05:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Absolutely not curious -:- You are really something gerry -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 21:57:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Please, Bjorn, please don't sic your -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:41:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Absolutely curious about -:- how sick you can be Gerry -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 07:52:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Thanks Susan. nt -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:09:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- YOU ARE A COWARD, Not really curious -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:19:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- YOU ARE A COWARD, ANTH -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 20:50:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- ASK MAHARAJI -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 18:18:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Curious again -:- Question to Marianne, Anth and Way -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:55:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- you are a real creep -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 05:06:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CHR -:- Why M didn't send Jagdeo back to India. -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:56:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Why M didn't send Jagdeo back to India. -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:59:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Good one JM. NT -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:18:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Contact w/ Jagdeo -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:13:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CHR -:- Contact w/ Jagdeo -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 12:44:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Just curious -:- I am a human being -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 06:32:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- And so is Maharaji -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 20:44:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Just curious -:- how you can explain -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 09:05:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- yawn.... -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:21:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Just curious if -:- this is not called programmed speculation? -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:19:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- To cover their arses legally if anything breaks, -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 09:19:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- I am a human being -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:37:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- How could anyone think you were lying... -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:44:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ There you fucking creep, -:- Got your rocks off yet, Curious? -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:54:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Bjorn's lust for a blow-by-blow description of Jag -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:54:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Aha -:- YOU are into such GARBAGE, Gerry -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 09:11:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Just Curious -:- How sick you can be gErRy -:- Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 07:47:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Identify yourself -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:05:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Curious again -:- Identity of me? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:24:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- More premie subversion-don't talk to Curious -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 23:11:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Identity of me? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:59:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Curious again -:- WHY DON'T ANYONE REPLY? -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 23:11:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- We're ALL waiting for an answer -:- Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:15:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- To curious/not curious FYI -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:06:10 (GMT)

__ JtF -:- Are you suggesting Jagdeo is innocent? (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 11:58:31 (GMT)

Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 11:07:03 (GMT) From: JtF Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Rawat's 'Hooves-on' approach to propogation Message:

In the early 90's, Rawat said he was going to be the only one to give K. All the cult members had to do was to get the susceptibles/suggestables to the video events w/o telling them too much about it. He would take it from there. For a period of time after that, he would brag that when he gave people the hocus pocus, it stuck. Slowly, he stopped talking about this. Yet another attempt to propogate the cult had failed. The greying continued, the defections continue. His financial base is in jeopardy. Now, we see that yet another attempt is being made to propagate the cult species. This time 'all the cult members' will be involved. Right now, the belief of the active cult members is high due to the recent fix they got seeing HIM in the U.S. When this effort fails, the cult members are already set up to take the rap for the failure. I will be watching this latest effort with great curiousity. Does anyone out there have any more details on this latest recruiting effort??

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 22:14:53 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: JtF Subject: Rawat's 'Hooves-on' approach to propogation Message:

My personal impression is that this latest attempt at manipulating his flock into proselytising is having no more effect than any of his more recent attempts. The thing I wonder about, though, is the effect of veterans defecting from those lotus toes. Each one of these defections blows a hole in the social fabric of premiedom, proving that there are alternatives to that #@!!X#@!!, and the younger generation seems somewhat underwhelmed by greatness and generosity of our former master in providing access to his wriggly toes through the medium of video or whatever the fuck he chooses.Le

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:01:26 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: JtF Subject: One more time taking premies for a ride Message:

That would be interesting to write a story of all those attempts ...... Keeps premies busy, waiting for The Day the whole world is going to know HE HAS COME .... Same old story. Who's going to believe him this time?

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:19:31 (GMT) From: JtF Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: One more time taking premies for a ride/I agree Message:

I've thought recently that propagation is more of an attempt to help the current members validate their continued participation. A con man like Rawat can't possibly believe there is much left in the Western world to sucker into his cult. Those of us known as baby-boomers were the only large population gullible to this scam. Even our off-spring who grew up in this light and love have not exactly flocked to his feet. One would think that if K was real, a large portion of the kids would have naturally migrated to Rawat. Very few did!!!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 00:54:18 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: JtF Subject: One more time taking premies for a ride/I agree Message:

I've thought recently that propagation is more of an attempt to help the current members validate their continued participation. Yep, it's just a rally cry to get the troops rearin' and ready to go. Like you say, it validates their participation.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:49:35 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: JtF Subject: It worked one time, and NEVER AGAIN! Message:

1/ 1st attempt, in the 70s when he left India. One could say there was a lot of enthusiasm, expectations, crazyness. Maybe up to 200,000 persons initiated in West. Then he made attempt after attempt to start again when he realized everybody was leaving by the end of the 70s, and that the Indian mahatmas were a bit off the wall in West. 2/ 1st wave of western instructors (mid 70s): no success. Maybe not enough of them? 3/ 2nd wave of western instructors (end 70s), dozens of them, in most of the active countries. No success. End of the ashrams and old DLM's organization. 4/ Mid 80s: new organization (EV), and several waves of new part-time instructors. Not much success. Beginning of the videos era. Not much success either. 5/ Early 90s: part time instructors fired. Rawat decides he'd prepare the aspirants and give k himself. Lot of enthusiasm, lots of premies involved again in huge organization. No success. 6/ End 90s: very few initiates in West. 7/ 2000: DVD era and new instructors .... guess what's going to happen? Maybe I missed some steps here and there, but that's the global picture I remember. I guess he'll now need the new Global jet to go even faster .....

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:56:52 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: And a few more attempts Message:

The 'rejoices' in the mid 80s when he tried to bring premies back to the practise, the the 'k reviews' all the time, the the long expected 'public programs' where nobody showed up (at least for the follow-ups) etc etc .... Rawat needs help!! ... maybe the best thing for him would be to retire, but then what a failure for him. The Lord of the Universe out of business....

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:15:58 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: and even more hints Message:

He tried the video system for about 10 years, and that didn't work either. Then he moved to the satellite broadcasting system, and that was even worse. I guess he figured out that having instructors again would do the trick! He tried to have partr-time instructors to be in charge of the aspirants. Didn't work. Then he tried the videos where he 'prepares' them himself. Didn't work. Then he's trying his new satellite/instructors system.... guess what's going to happen! And god only knows how many organizational systems he tried: everybody involved (in the 70s), nobody involved in the 80s, the again more and more premies in the 90s, up to the point now where masses of premies are 'doing service' preparing anything, everything and nothing all the time, to the present seminar systems etc You could also mention his private office, where he had so many different staff, including even his family. And all the sytems he tried to 'prepare' for his coming anywhere and everywhere all the time .... I guess there is an endless list of systems he's tried. Not speaking of the huge security systems he had, like FBI and CIA, bodyguards and international underground organization. Could elaborate also on the 'lands' where everything was supposed to happen. He sucked millions to improve them, even bought the land in Argentina where nothing is happening ..... One thing is going on there definitely, and premies love that: darshan, arti, and all the devotional game. He also tried to set a 'knowledge centers' system where again everything was supposed to originate from, with instructors etc: never worked. It gives the impression that he randomly tries virtually any organizational system, hoping something is going to happen. That's his policy. And some premies still wait for the next ride.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:06:56 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Exactly J-M, and if his ego wasn't so large Message:

even he would have realized where the problem lay. Organizationally I've seen some flops in my time, for god sakes I work for social services, but his organizational skills, well amateurish is hardly the word!

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:25:22 (GMT) From: JtF Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: 200,000 in the West!-bad teacher Message:

If that number is anywhere close, then we're talking about Rawat failing as a teacher over 95% of the time. I would suspect that 10,000 active cult members would be a pretty solid number for Europe, U.S. and Australia. I really like the time line you did in the above post. It should be saved.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:14:22 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: JtF Subject: Yes he's the Lord of the Universe, in the guise of Message:

a master. Maybe .... But who cares ? People are not interested in this game or paying for his toys.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:34:16 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: JtF Subject: This is not HIS opinion: we ARE saved! Message:

I think he's still in the belief that when people 'have received k' they ARE premies (except for his enemies maybe)! We ARE SAVED, whether we want it or not!!!! The only problem for him very likely is that only a dozen of westerners receive k every year ..... and eternity won't be long enough to propagate. Something HAS to be done ..... and he'll keep trying. Maybe the jet isn't fast enough, maybe it's the instructors' fault, or his family's or whoever.....

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 03:09:56 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Annie Subject: Annie's post - worth a second look Message:

Thought I'd bring this one up for another airing, because I see so much contradiction & confusion in it. Annie, you wrote in various posts below: i do believe maharaji IS lord of the universe. every bit as much as the first day i saw his picture and heard the news. it was at the art college in nova scotia in 1971. prince of peace, it said. And.. The only difference I think between me and 'exes' is that I continued to respect & value maharaji as teacher. mentor. 'Lord of The Universe' But then... I don't feel like I have to agree with everything he says, nor do I. I believe that practicing Knowledge is what led me to leave the ashram, well before they closed, even though I had once thought I would stay there for the rest of my life. I felt compelled to distance myself from the community, to explore my own needs, talents, understanding, etc. independent of Divine Light Mission, Elan Vital, rites and rituals, discipline and dogma. Well this rang alarm bells in me Annie. I mean, There you were, having discovered the 'Lord of the Universe', not, 'a nice meditation teacher' mind, but some mystical embodiment of the entire Cosmos, and you don't feel you have to agree with him!!!!. You're kidding, right? Doesn't that show an ego even raina would be envious of? Then the rest of it - leaving the Lord of the Universe's ashram because you were practising His Knowledge? No sense at all. As if that wasn't enough, you then went on to distance yourself from the Lord of the Universe's community of devotees and His earthly infrastructure and devotional guidelines? Phew, some cahones you got there girl! The rest of it is pretty bizarre too. I also see here on the forum the positive effect of Knowledge. This I gotta hear. Many people here believe they have wised up and walked away from a dangerous cult. That's the Lord of the Universe's dangerous cult, IF you don't mind. Anyway.... Yet it was they themselves who walked in, in the first place. Cult and all. Absurd concepts and all. Ridiculous rituals and all. Preposterous beliefs and all. Self-sacrifice and all. Oh yeah, that was it Annie; we all knew we were being scammed right from the gitgo, but hey, there was nothing on TV that night so we thought, 'what the heck? let's go give our lives to this fat Indian boy anyway' In my experience truth does not mix with nonsense. Well you sure gave it your best shot here. Knowledge itself is what led me to start thinking for myself, I'm certain of it. I believe it [Knowledge] leads people to walk away from their own gullibility, their own robotics, and become original again. Hmmm, well how do we explain the fact that we keep hearing the same old, unoriginal, almost robotic, dumbass quotes from the guru by way of replies to just about any coherent question asked of premies here? I'm sure you are a very nice person at heart, Annie, don't get me wrong, but boy do you come across as confused! Anyhow that's just my opinion, I wonder what the others think?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 00:35:37 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Rob Subject: What was that about the Church of Virus? (ot) Message:

What was that about the Church of Virus, now in inactive? Can you post the link for me? Would appreciate it if you can! Stonor

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 01:09:05 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Stonor Subject: What was that about the Church of Virus? (ot) Message:

Here you go, Stonor. Click here. I don't think you're going to agree with their philosophy, though. Their leading saint is Charles Darwin.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 01:45:01 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Jerry Subject: What was that about the Church of Virus? (ot) Message:

Thanks Jerry, I already found it - forgot to post. Agreement is not my priority; learning is - but thanks for your consideration. An interesting way of looking at memes. I had a related bookmark; I'll try to find it again. By the way, I've heard there's a forum there where no one will mind if I don't have 'K' ;-) How do I get there? I can't find it? Thanks again, Stonor

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:11:25 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Think I found the forum Message:

Is it alt.memetics? Here's something I don't disagree with! I think one of the main essentials of a religion is the 'freezing' of arguments. In every religion some cultural things are given some sort of not-open-to-discussion status. Some cultural rules are above discussion, they are to be accepted or you can't be a follower of the religion. The same goes for science, only in science there should be room to discuss everything. If this is not possible, often the case, the question can be asked if it has become a religion in this sense. Lots of interesting discussion here! Stonor

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 18:46:43 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: all Subject: OT - just some personal perspectives Message:

Hello, I just want to say a few things here and don't want to get into arguments. I don't think arguments settle much, if anything. There are some people I respect and like very much here and some I have a lot of problems with. In the past I've fought. I don't want to fight anymore. I've been through a lot in my life and have been close to death on several occasions. I agree with Kate Wolf as she sings 'the truest path always leads through mountains'. The difficult experiences of my life have taught me much. I am convinced that much of our healing comes through confrontations with the inner self. Some of these can be very hard. Coming to terms with death is important in my opinion. Annie, good to see you here. I agree with Way who says he sees you have been through 'some stuff' in your life. I like how you just put your impressions out, seemingly without caring what you receive back. I've gotten very angry on this forum in the past because of my strong reactions to some of the participants here. I've gotten very angry. I don't want that anger now. Not that I'm going to deny or turn away from it. I just don't want to fan the flames. So I've chosen to mostly lurk here instead of participate. There are sometimes good things said, and other times in my opinion a bunch of crap. I do essentially respect all here as humans. I have difficulty with some here as much as I've had difficulty with anyone I've ever met. I am now strongly into Buddhism. It is the centerpiece of my life and I practice a lot everyday. I do Vajrayana practice, an authentic living tradition that goes back many centuries. There are probably a few on this board that know something about what I practice. I'll be doing this practice more and more deeply each day until I die, which could be 3 months or 30 years. According to the doctors, my prognosis is seriously bad. I don't have any cancer symptoms right now. (I do have a recurrence of Lyme Disease though (hah!)). Thankfully, according to the doctors, I am an enigma. I don't fit the data, in a positive sense. But statistically the odds are strong that I won't make it more than a few years. However, I have a good and wonderful life, I appreciate it more than ever, I feel fully present in my body as never before, and I meditate on death every day. Each of us on this forum is different, some of us dramatically different. I respect the logical mind, but I know with all my being that logic is not everything. Logical mind can in no way grasp so much of what is 'real'. No one will ever convince me that I didn't not have a real near-death experience. More than 30 years ago I believe I experienced death and that was the most real event of my life and it continues to be so. I believe I met the Buddha face to face. This is now part of my practice on a day to day basis. I visualize and live that. I have never had an experience in this body that even comes close to the reality of this, including many acid trips, strong sexual experiences, epiphanies in nature, etc. Coming to terms with my near-death and powerful visions has been my career. Back in the seventies, Maharaji filled a place in my curiculum vitae. I don't relate to the strong, angry stances of many here. Not at all. I gratefully value the simple, concrete and present attributes of my life, my family, all the material things of my life, etc. However, the material circumstances don't give me the deeper meanings. Never have since childhood. To me there always has been more. So many premies came into knowledge for different reasons. I would encourage those who got into knowledge in search of spiritual meaning to keep looking for answers. Answers came for me through knowledge back in the seventies, but even with knowledge I wanted more. To me it is important to come to terms with life and death and who we are. I believe there are answers and people who have realized these answers.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:30:43 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Bobby Subject: OT - just some personal perspectives Message:

Bobby, Well, you'll sure never be in an argument with me!! :) Thanks for you're words. BTW,I'm so jealous of you're NDE. 'Life after Life' is a video I pass to almost everyone!I have three copies. Elaine

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:31:23 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Elaine Subject: just some personal perspectives Message:

Well, you'll sure never be in an argument with me!! :) Are you aware of the definitions of the word argument? Are you proud of not being able to discuss an idea with reason or for not having reasons to reason?

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:01:23 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Rob Subject: To Rob, on conversing with premies Message:

Rob, I feel your frustration! I've been there. Do you think that the dialogue will ever be anything but exasperating for both sides? Actually, I do think it's possible to work things out, so keep trying! But you should know that there is something they (the premies) refuse to do, and that is to approach life on a purely logical basis. Logic is required in certain small arenas, granted, but basically, fundamentally, logic fails, and fails dramatically. Both premies and exes know this, so we should not limit Han or Annie to realistic, consistent responses to our pointed but rigid inquiry. That sets up an impasse from which they can only retreat. The guru's realm begins precisely where we approach the mystery. The guru's promised gift to the disciple is access to the unknown, and somewhere inside we all know full well that we need to hold on to somebody's hand, somebody higher. Of course we spend life hashing through it on our own steam for the most part, but death and its grand diminishment is never too far from our conscious acknowledgement, if we're honest with ourselves. The guru provides no maps, of course, only a hand to hold on to as we peek into the darkness. There's just one little problem, of course, namely that the hand extended is flesh and blood no matter how hard they attempt to disguise it. Sooner or later we all have to find that other hand, but that alternative is equally mysterious and we won't be coming to any mutual conclusions about that, now will we?! I've corresponded with Annie off-line, and believe it or not, she is quite verbose and communicative. And guess what? She lived in the ashram with Jim! Ha! But I won't go into that! Her reticence here comes from a recognition of when people are talking at each other instead of with each other. She has much to say about approaching life fearlessly, and she says it well, something that only comes with experience and life's harder lessons. She sometimes, not always, expresses from the ecstatic viewpoint and on that level, definitions are quite boring. So, I think she might be persuaded to discuss things further here, if not pinned down too narrowly. I believe Han is not a hopeless case, either. He actually began to answer question #1 when he was hobnobbing with that pompous showman who realized Knowledge in 1997. But just a beginning. Did you notice? Having come to their defense, I must also say that I love your critique, just above. Your points are undeniable (and amusing, once again). If you had been fencing with Mr. Rawat, you would have cut him to the quick and he would have blustered about frantically like a pricked baloon, falling to the floor when all the hot air had at last escaped. Mr. Rawat is a cult leader trying his best to not be a cult leader. Unforunately, there isn't any way to do that and he might just admit it one of these day. Could happen. And on that day, he will sit himself down in front of his satellite cameras, ready for his close-up, and he will declare live to all his debit-card-carrying lovers of truth: 'Good by, and good luck!' Either that, or he'll simply expire without a word when the time comes. And we will all be left, making our peace with life, satisfied that beauty and kindness exist even now (Robert's lesson no.2), and maybe holding that other hand as best we can.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:34:10 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Way Subject: I strongly disagree, Way Message:

But you should know that there is something they (the premies) refuse to do, and that is to approach life on a purely logical basis. Logic is required in certain small arenas, granted, but basically, fundamentally, logic fails, and fails dramatically. I couldn't disagree more, Way. Logic doesn't 'fail', anymore than two plus two stops being four. We can never escape logic or rationality although we can easily abuse it. But anytime we actually think about something, anytime we need to ever understand or analyze a situation (like a million times a day), we're performing a rational act inextricably bound with logic. The problem, of course, is when people, because of some dumb idea, try to trounce it, try to wilfully abandon that which they can't give up in any event. New-age thinking encourges this misguided effort. Annie is a very typical new-ager. Why do I say that? Because of certain things she says, certain things she believes and certain things she does. She is a real word-player. You're having an email dialogue with her? Good, you'll see. Unless you're satisfied with a very, very fuzzy exchange you'll soon learn that she won't be bound by the fair meaning of any particular word or the logical entailment of any sentence. Annie believes that you can treat all these words and ideas like toys. For example -- and I wish I still had all those emails -- Annie most definitely distanced herself from all the old cult catechism last time we talked. Now she embraces it. She didn't know who Maharaji was last year and didn't think it mattered. Words, words, words, who needed them? But now she's confident that he is indeed the Lord of the Universe. New age bullshit? No, not necessarily. Maybe she jsut changed her mind. But, the problem in Annie's case is that she won't admit that there's any difference in what she told me and what she says now. Logic (and simple honesty) compels her to admit that but she thumbs her nose at all that. New age bullshit? Yes! So have a nice chat with her. It doesn't mean anything.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 19:43:41 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re:I strongly disagree, Way Message:

Jim, Well, of course you disagree with me, and so does Jerry, I've no doubt. What else is new? But I make my comments here in reference to attempting to continue a dialogue with premies that goes somewhere other than a useless exchange of insults, so we should at least understand their viewpoint. You speak about logic as it describes how the human mind works. The point here is that spiritual endeavor attempts to transcend the normal limitations of the finite human mind in favor of the ecstatic nature of the Infinite. So exes shouldn't be surprised to see people expressing non-linear feelings, to put it in New-Agey terms, nor should we suspect them of being disingenuous or call them idiotic when they do so. The reason that it is not idiotic nor unfair nor dishonest to limit logic is because the human mind can easily recognize its own limited nature and see itself as existing within a larger reality, greater than itself. Jim, I know this isn't your view of the universe, but it is authentic for people to have this view. I personally believe that the question about Mr. Rawat being the Lord of the Universe or any version thereof can be answered correctly with human logic. But that leaves the other, more general question about the universe itself. I think it is interesting to question whether the universe operates along logical rules and the material world is entirely mechanical, including the human mind, or if all matter springs from the Mind of God and continually seeks to reunite with the joy of that higher Oneness. You have answered that question for yourself to your own satisfaction, but not to mine. By the way, I actually like Annie's response to the supposed logical inconsistency of disagreeing with the Lord of the Universe. I had wondered what she could possibly say to defend her position. She says that if she were Lord of the Universe, she would expect such treatment from a nobody like herself. I like it!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:31:56 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Way Subject: Why oh why is there only the two options Message:

in this topic area, it's either a linear mathematics/analytical truth, OR an experiential beyond words one. Why do we never see AND? Oh and by the way, I have absolutely no desire for a hand to hold on a god level, whatever's gonna happen, is gonna happen whether you believe or not AND I can have the one love. I generate the one love, it's built into the biology. I really do think your definition of logic is just linear. Have you never read up on circular logic, and systems that opoerate within this logic? Have you done any systems reading at all? Not attacking, just asking.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:16:56 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Way Subject: Re:I strongly disagree, Way Message:

The point here is that spiritual endeavor attempts to transcend the normal limitations of the finite human mind in favor of the ecstatic nature of the Infinite. This could simply be a survival instinct developed in our species to keep us from falling into suicidal despair. It may be that some people (such as atheists) can accept their demise, while others can't. I will say this, though. I think it is important that people experience something, ANYTHING, that gives them a sense of purpose, of fulfillment in life, THIS life. Some people, I think, give up on that possibility. They feel that this life will end without a fulfillment of purpose, so there must be a fulfillment of that purpose in the life to come. I think that's kind of sad. It IS sad, when people fall into that type of despair. But, you'd have to admit that not everybody is looking to reunite with the joy of that higher Oneness. That's YOUR heart's desire. Other people might just want to get laid this weekend, like these two goombas I saw on MTV some time ago. That's all these guys lived for. Or an athelete might be interested in just having a good game. That could be his deepest concern. Not everybody is on a spiritual quest. Not everybody is searching for God. But everybody IS trying to make life count, in their own way, somehow. So, the point I'm trying to make, I guess, is it all depends where your head is at that's going to determine how you look at things. If the spiritual outlook appeals to you, you'll adopt that outlook. It doesn't mean that you're closer to reality because you have. It just means having that kind of outlook suits you. It's where YOU'RE at, not necessarilly where IT'S at. Am I making sense, here? I hope so.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:51:24 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Jerry Subject: To Jerry Message:

Jerry, I largely agree with you here, and I want to point out that in this thread I was not so much expressing my own current viewpoint as I was attempting to defend the common premie viewpoint as an authentic and reasonable one, given the mystery of life. I do this because I think it would help the dialogue here if we acknowledge the mystery, and give people credit for being sincere. As for myself at this time in my life, the phrase 'reunite with the joy of the Higher Oneness' actually turns me off. I find myself more and more content with the simple human joys of planet Earth, following the three lessons that Robert B. so nicely listed below. I just wanted to explain that.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 23:10:16 (GMT) From: Han Email: None To: Way Subject: Well said ,Way Message:

Way, Well said indeed,, One of the most 'logical' posts I've read. ; ) Truly, Han

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 03:12:33 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Han Subject: Han! You came back! Message:

Couldn't stay away huh? It's OK I know the feeling well! If you suddenly notice it's 4am and you're still posting, you know you are hooked:) Anyway, so what's up? When you left, you were thanking me for strengthening your committment to the cult. Could I possibly persuade you to donate the rest of your savings to rawat? Let's give it a shot. Do you think it is right that for the past few years, maharaji refers to the techniques as My Knowledge, as opposed to This or The Knowledge as was the case in the 70's and 80's? My view is that the original form would have been more correct, as the techniques do not belong to him (in the conventional sense of someone who invents or purchases something), but rather have been in existance and practiced for perhaps centuries. Any thoughts?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:33:40 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Way Subject: Well said ,Way Message:

Thank you, Way. Elaine

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 20:41:51 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Way Subject: Way, what are you smoking? Message:

Way, what are you smoking? And what have you got against logic (LOGOS?) (Sorry for suggesting you smoke. But you surely(?) are on something, aren't you?)

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 21:20:57 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: cq Subject: To cq, on Logos and logic Message:

cq, hmmm...human logic equated with Logos, the order of the universe. Interesting proposition. But that still leaves the question whether what is true for the mind of man is any different that what is true for the mind of God. And I'm not sure what strict materialists like Jim would say about the Greek and/or Christian conceptions of Logos, or the even earlier Egyptian concept of Ma'at, which is roughly the same thing. By the way, as a premie I always equated 'the Word', 'Holy Name', and 'Logos' as the same thing.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 21:27:56 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Way Subject: Logos and logic Message:

Don't know if the goddess Ma'at could be said to be equivalent to the Logos, Way. More a personification of justice and 'right-living' I would have thought (but I'm only an amateur as far as the study of Egyptian myth goes). BTW, I found this translation of the '42 negative confessions' at http://www.maatinus.com/Nguzo%20Saba/maatprn.htm. Amazing that such ideals were central (all that time ago!) to Egypt's civilisation. I wonder if they really tried to live them, or if it became just another shallow catechism?

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Date: Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 04:36:26 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: cq Subject: Admonitions of Ma'at Message:

Thanks for another great link Chris! I've bookmarked it. I think that it is a far more meaningful and practical catechism than the one I got at Sunday school! As to whether or not Ma'at's are 'shallow', my guess is that it has always been somewhat dependent on the depth of each individual who has read or heard them. Have you read C.S.Lewis's 'The Abolition of Man'? It's a great little book with a couple of essays in the beginning (very worthwhile reading) and an appendix called 'Illustrations of the Tao' at the end, which is a compilation of 'catechisms' (if you want to call them that) from many sacred texts around the world. I've posted a few of them before. i~i Stonor (just noticed this post now!)

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:39:03 (GMT) From: Annie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim why don't you write about yourself for once. Message:

You are not recognizing that your analyses of other people are either incomplete inaccurate or totally irrelevant. You set yourself up as an authority who sees others clearly but you cannot even see yourself, boy.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:45:10 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Annie Subject: Are you going to send me the emails or not? Message:

Annie, I've written lots about myself. Indeed, I'm my favorite subject, believe me. But what about WHAT I was saying? Don't dance around it. Deal with it squarely. Am I right or not? Get your eyes off the scoreboard and back on the play.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:58:28 (GMT) From: annie Email: None To: Rob Subject: humongous ego, you are correct Message:

Rob wrote: << and you don't feel you have to agree with him!!!!. You're kidding, right? Doesn't that show an ego even raina would be envious of? >> I have maybe the biggest ego of anybody I know. Anyway if I were Lord of the Universe I wouldn't expect everybody to agree with me. I don't expect people to agree with me now, and I am nobody in particular. I prefer not to be misunderstood, but it happens anyway. Annie

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:28:31 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: annie Subject: humongous ego, you are correct Message:

Annie you are a good sport! Totally out of your tree, mind, but decidedly up to par when it comes to being a premie:)

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:43:52 (GMT) From: Annie Email: None To: Rob Subject: Annie's post - worth a second look Message:

Thanks Rob -- I don't see discrepancies myself, but I know what I meant.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:53:56 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Annie Subject: Well I won't labor the point much further Message:

It's just that I believe in simplifying issues, paring them down to bite-size concepts and prodding them one at a time to see what they are made of. The LOTU thing is a very fundamental part of this whole shebang. Until it has been determined what is supposedly meant by that phrase, how real it is and who it actually applies to, we don't even know in which ball park the game is being played. For the average meat-and-potatoes drongo like myself, it conjures up all manner of divine, mystical, holy images of a very big bloke stomping through the galaxies being all over the place at the same time and watching you go to the toilet. It's Charlton Heston, Mother Teresa and King Kong rolled into one. In a word, God. So OK, is Prem Pal Singh Rawat *He*, as was claimed and promoted all those years ago and now conveniently buried in cardboard boxes somewhere in Malibu Mansions? Or, was that all bogus? Now this point is relevant whether or not 'the Lord of the Universe' is an actual entity, because making false claims of that nature, knowing the average person has at least some concept of God, is a major indication of intent and character on his part. Which is why I have a particular interest in that question and tend to go on a bit. And it is also why I get somewhat frustrated when premies either avoid the issue or acceed to their belief in the LOTU but gloss over it as if it were something trivial like the color if his hair. Thanks for the chat Annie, take care. Rob

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:39:05 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Rob Subject: Thanks Rob - and Jim G Hal Katie and . . . Message:

Thanks Rob for de-constructing that post. You must have a strong mind. It was a workout I'll never forget working on Deputy Dog's first post to me. And I love the blue quotes! This section from Annie's post reminded me of an explanation/apology I've wanted to take care of for a long time. At one point during a discussion with Jim, in total exasperation I asked something like 'How could any intelligent person get sucked in by M?', something like this part of Annie's post (and Annie, if they really are, as you say, 'Ridiculous rituals and preposterous beliefs and all,' why are you still a premie?): Yet it was they themselves who walked in, in the first place. Cult and all. Absurd concepts and all. Ridiculous rituals and all. Preposterous beliefs and all. Self-sacrifice and all. Yes, G, I had heard of brainwashing, but couldn't figure out how it applied in m's case. It did seem that people 'themselves walked in,' as Annie wrote. Although I realized right after posting how this question might be interpreted, and posted an explanation, the damage was done. I had started to work on an apology after reading G's, Hal's and Katie's responses, but realized that my question had not really been answered. As I mentioned to Jim in a post just over a week ago (?) I read Josh Freed's Moon Webs recently, and then I fully understood how no one just walks in to a cult like m's themselves. There is a lengthy process, the tease of the hard to get 'k', the promises, the promotion to the ranks of 'superior human beings,' better than all the dregs who haven't received k, right Deputy Dog? (oops, I forgot, you don't say that today). There are also factors like pre-conditioning, context and timing which can make an individual more vulnerable. I have really wanted to understand, and yes I know, all of these things have been discussed here, but somehow the 'noise' level can confuse things, as it did the night I asked Jim that question. I have cried many times as I have gradually begun to understand the full extent of the evil nature of cults like m's, and most terrible, what he has done to so many good people: aspirants, premies, and exes, as well as their families and friends. When I first began corresponding with my e-mail (premie) friend, I asked him about the 'premies', 'Aren't they guru groupies?' He conceded that yes, that was so, and that although he had been one, and it was 'fun', that he didn't have much to do with them anymore. I thought he was a broadminded, gentle, 'new agey' guy. (hard to imagine, eh Jim? ;-) That soon changed, and so did his involvement with m apparently, as he began to push k, while closing/ignoring all intelligent threads of discussions. The contradictions became shockingly apparent in other areas as well, and after a couple of months of correspondence, he was beginning to affect my mental health. At the end of February I found this site, and began to understand why premies are what they have become. These quotes from Moon Webs are nothing new, but I'll add them here as 'neutral' commentary. In the meantime, these young members must construct enless rationalizations to explain away contradictions, as with one disciple of Guru Maharaj Ji, who told me: 'It's true that Maharaj Ji drives fancy cars and drinks liquor . . . but that's because he's already perfect. He isn't corrupted by material things like you or me . . .' (I hear an echo.) Implicit in all these mental contortions is the same message: I cannot trust my own feelins or thoughts, because I am hopelessly inadequate. And the classic: Guru Maharaj Ji also pulls no punches in this hypnotic Satsang lecture, explictly telling his disciples: 'So whatever you have got, give it to me. I am ready to receive it. And the extra thing you have got is your mind. Give it to me. I am ready to receive it. Because your mind troubles you, give it to me. It won't trouble me. Just give it. And give you egos to me beause egos trouble you, but they don't trouble me. Give them to me.' And now, words from The Grand Inquisitor, from The Brothers Karamasov, by Dostoevski. Oh, we shall persuade them that they will only become free when they renounce their freedom to us and submit to us. We shall show them that they are weak, that they are only pitiful children, but that childlike happiness is the sweetest of all. The most painful secrets of their conscience, all, all they wil bring to us, and we shall have an answer for all. And they will be glad to believe our answer, for it will save them from the great anxiety and terrible agony they endure at present in making a free decision for themselves. Yes Rob, The Grand Inquisitor, Moon, and m seem to all follow the same very creepy game plan. So much more, but I'm sure this is more than enough. Love and respect to ALL, Stonor

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 06:33:27 (GMT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Three cheers for Dostoevski Message:

Man, that _Brothers Karamasov_ quote needs to be posted permanently somewhere.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:19:44 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Rob Subject: Annie's post - worth a second look Message:

Well, apart from all the contradictions - you were in Nova Scotia in '71? Prince Edward Island here- for the solar eclipse for a month -ala Joni Mitchell--til I was almost raped by a 'friend' - so left in the middle of the night- ah, to be 20 again... But - is Annie - anne/Anne? Elaine

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:47:53 (GMT) From: annie Email: None To: Elaine Subject: No Harm Farm Message:

In the summer of '72 there was a solar eclipse which was centered almost directly above our farm. Scientists & hippies travelled from all over the place to see it. You are in PEI now? You must know Liza and Konrad et.al? Annie

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:35:47 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: annie Subject: No Harm Farm Message:

annie, I'm sorry if I was unclear - no I was there for a month that summer - left because of the lech. Went back to Bar Harbor,ME and finished out the summer months - ahh, those young hippie traveling days... Yes, I was on a farm somewhat also - fun watching the animals think it was night and march back into the barn.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:04:52 (GMT) From: rick Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Egypt Message:

Anyone know if Maharaji is known in Egypt? Just curious...might be going there.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:09:36 (GMT) From: Gilead Email: None To: rick Subject: Egypt Message:

I doubt seriously if Maharaji would be known in Egypt, as it is a Muslim country with a Christian Coptic minority. I don't think someone like Maharaji would be welcome there with his proseltyzing gimmicks. That might be one country where he could end up in the slammer. The only way he would go would be as an anonymous tourist or a guest to another millionaire, but NEVER to do his Knowledge Gigs. (Hope this didn't disappoint you, if you were hoping get a Knowledge session!, just kidding!) Historically, whether Maharaji wants to deny his Hindu background or not, there have also been conflicts between Muslims and Hindus. I don't think he'd get away with saying he's not teaching a religion in Egypt.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:38:04 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Gilead Subject: There has been a bunch of premies there Message:

I remember I met some of them quite a long time ago.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 20:19:27 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Everyone Subject: No flies on M, sez O Message:

Way down in the almost-inactive threads, you'll find O and moi-meme discussing Mr Rawat and his claim to fame, or rather, infamy. Just HAD to bring it up-front. Me to O: 'Get real' you say? As in 'face the facts'? OK, here's a fact for us to face, an indisputable one: Maharaji led a lot of people to believe he was God incarnate (i.e. the Saviour, the Messiah, Lord of the Universe etc.) But the fact of the matter is that he wasn't and isn't, any more than you or I. So he lied. Big time (can you think of a bigger lie he could have told?) Then (indisputable fact #2): he attempted to destroy all the evidence of his claims during his LOTU years (the recall and destruction of the literature). Pretended it never happened !!! And these are the actions of an honest man, do you think? A man who would like you to trust him more than you trust yourself? Oh he'd like that. In fact there are still premies who trust him more than they trust themselves; some even continue to think he's Lord of the Universe. Does that encourage him to help them out of their delusion? Does that stop him from taking their money from them? Does it f**k. And you still believe this man to be a Master? Master Con-Artist more like. Oh, he believes in what he's doing all right - and he's doing very nicely out of it, private jet, Malibu mansion etc. etc. Demonic motives you say? I don't think so. Just love of money, and of living in the manner to which he has become accustomed. Why on earth should someone like him want to apologise to anyone? O replied: Subject: Do you believe in magic? Message: First to this day he still refers to himself having the same goals as the Saviors/Messiahs.The last thing he wants to do is say he's Jesus or Buddah because everybody flies off on tangents. Next you'll be hard pressed to show me where he said 'I Prem Pal Singh Rawat am God'.To this day he talks about the power of the Master but most of us including you don't have a clue what he's talking about.And even if he came out and said he was God,how would you disprove his claim? No cq,no lies were told by him. On the point of destroying evidence thats just your projection of some kind of cover up on his part.Now let me project.He wanted people to be free of the burdensome ideas about him and K accumulated during the 70s that only confused and hurt people..You obviously didn't take advantage of his efforts. As for him only caring about money,thats just bullshit.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:30:02 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: cq Subject: Might 'O' be 'URL'? Message:

Both have come up with this same absurd question: And even if he came out and said he was God,how would you disprove his claim? Too laughable to respond to. But nice to see O finally admitting that the ideas M had propagated for ten years caused suffering among premies: .He wanted people to be free of the burdensome ideas about him and K accumulated during the 70s that only confused and hurt people.. You said it O.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 19:34:31 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Nigel and all Subject: 'burdensome ideas about Knowledge' - thanks to M Message:

I wonder what O would call 'burdensome ideas about Knowledge'? Something like: 'Constantly meditate and remember Holy Name'? (now apparently forbidden by M) Of course M says 'mistakes were made' - but when will HE own up as the one who should take the rap for making those mistakes? 'He didn't lie' says O. Poor guy can't face facts.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:52:40 (GMT) From: Know It All Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Might 'O' be 'URL'? Message:

O sounds a lot like URL to me too, Nigel. KIA

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:04:58 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: O Subject: Magical, evil, stinking thinking Message:

... if you can call it thought.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 18:31:44 (GMT) From: george s. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: jethro and jim Message:

Jethro and Jim-just noticed your posts from below,and would love to see you guys follow this up, as it is stuff that should be known.We've asked rawat to fess up and he refuses.This is important stuff, if for nothing else than to show people how rawat deals with stuff(mostly through denial and more denial). Please continue, and Jethro,please post more..

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 18:25:31 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: hamzen Subject: hamzen - You're barking up the wrong tree dog Message:

hamzen, On June 18 you wrote, You're barking up the wrong tree dog and pissing all over yourself. HE has made it quite plain, that it's a triangle between you, him, and the knowledge. So if rob meditates and experiences something he would describe in identical terms to you, it can't be, because without guru, no knowledge. After thinking about your comments for two days, I have to say I disagree. I think you can have an experience without a guru. Ask all the zen practitioners, hasidic jews, sufis, TMers, shamans ect. I chose to stick with M because it's easier when you have outside support. I find the videos inspirational. But you can practice without a guru IMO.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:35:10 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Do you realize ther full implication of what you Message:

are saying, the triangle between you, maharaji & knowledge is the key core component at the bottom, underneath, inside, whatever you want to call it. Didn't you ever read the guidance sheets for helping people through the aspirant process that Jean-Michel posted a while back, but only for the ears of the premies involved, not the aspirant. The whole purpose of the org is to build and encourage ONLY those people who had understood this connection of the triangle as the core component for receiving knowledge. It would be very easy to find regular explicit quotes when he is speaking to premies, where he delivers exactly the same message. In maharajis eyes it's what it's all about. Thank you for being so honest & open about the way you truly see it. It's what makes it tick, one recemnt quote made it explicit that premies will ALWAYS need the guru to come back to, because people constantly forget the core experience. So you are saying that one doesn't need the guru, but support enables you to move along the path more quickly I'm assuming, smoothes the process in some way, maybe provides some extra sense of security, maybe being a part of a group. But fundAmentally you are saying that even if you didn't have that support you would still be able to move down that path, however you define it, even if it was slower. Well it's good to see you're an ex dog, it might take you a while to come to terms with this, but you are in fundamental denial of his main message, that you need tyhe guru to experience knowledge. I'm sure a lot of other premies might now be able to admit this. Now do you see why we say he is a fraud. In the seventies he was lord of the universe & king of kings, and now he's just a teacher who is fundamental to an experience of knowledge, and as you say neither of these stances he's taken are actuALLY TRUE. For someone so reaslized he does seem to tell a lot of porkies, but then what do I know, it's probably just my mind stringing this all together and forgetting about the wonder of the moment. Ahh well, you win some, you lose some.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 19:48:40 (GMT) From: annie Email: None To: hamzen Subject: the main message Message:

hamzen wrote: << Well it's good to see you're an ex dog, it might take you a while to come to terms with this, but you are in fundamental denial of his main message, that you need tyhe guru to experience knowledge. I'm sure a lot of other premies might now be able to admit this. >> I always understood the main message to be the other way around: that I needed Knowledge in order to experience the guru. Therefore when questions about Maharaji's authenticity have come up, I have turned inside of me for the answers. To a large extent I have been disconnected from Maharaji, at least to all appearances, for many years. It is via the experience of Knowledge that I have grown to appreciate him. It was while distancing myself physically and mentally that I began to recognize the Knowledge as a gift with no strings attached. If there were no experience of Knowledge, I would have been looking all these years to find somebody to guide me through life. Annie

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:22:27 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: annie Subject: the main message Message:

<< Well it's good to see you're an ex dog, it might take you a while to come to terms with this, but you are in fundamental denial of his main message, that you need tyhe guru to experience knowledge. I'm sure a lot of other premies might now be able to admit this. >> I always understood the main message to be the other way around: that I needed Knowledge in order to experience the guru. Therefore when questions about Maharaji's authenticity have come up, I have turned inside of me for the answers. To a large extent I have been disconnected from Maharaji, at least to all appearances, for many years. It is via the experience of Knowledge that I have grown to appreciate him. It was while distancing myself physically and mentally that I began to recognize the Knowledge as a gift with no strings attached. Then you are in exactly a similar boat to dog's, you're an ex too and you don't realize it. Could you imagine having similar experiences without rawatt in the frame? If there were no experience of Knowledge, I would have been looking all these years to find somebody to guide me through life. Exactly, you could swap any guru into his boots, and you would have still made the journey, because it's 'your', not 'his', journey.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 18:28:04 (GMT) From: annie Email: None To: hamzen Subject: i AM an ex-cult member. not an ex-premie. Message:

thassall.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:32:27 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Do you realize the full implication of what you Message:

I wouldn't say I'm an ex, hamzen, because I still participate and value K. Over the years I have often disagreed with M, but I know that the experience of Knowledge is TRUTH. He is a genuine Master because that experience is real, in fact it's the 'realest' thing I've ever had.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 09:00:37 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Yes, but could someone not following gm experience Message:

that truth or not? If you say yes, then it is no more unique than any other route. Consequently don't you then suspect that it's not the teacher or the route that counts, but the individual themselves, in which case gm is an invention of yours, not a connecvting line to god, god hisself, something unique. I'm assuming he hasn't jettisoned the wonders of knowledge, the experience beyond anything else available in this world. Does he still take the piss of other peoples philosophies/religions/belief systems, as though they were transparent to the great master, the master of 'THE' knowledge, not even a hint of it anymore? Surely he's not just a bloke who has given up godhood and become a new age teacher, surely things haven't sunk this low?

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 07:14:52 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Now you're being disengenuous (sp?) Message:

No dep, maybe you've had experiences over the years that have had real value for you, but unless you're just fucking around with words and being less than honest it was you that made the statement. You can't have it both ways. If you don't believe what the man who sells the package says, on a fundamental level, which you have already admitted, then you are misintewrpreting all your experiences. Full stop. I really think you are being less than genuine with yourself because you are so naive. You see I know the experiences you're talking about, but you've been so brainwashed in explaining those experiences to yourself, an experience that has that ring odf truth doesn't make it THE truth. Lots of followers of other routes also have those experiences. You really ought to do some research and work out whast is happening in your body. What do you think is happening physically to you when you have those experiences. IF he is not crucial to the experience, ie without him you can still have those experiences, then he is lying himself, and your explanations are shallow. And this is the major problem around gm, everyone gets VERY sloppy in their explanations to themselves, because the explanations are seen as less important than the experience, which I suspect is the major reason why premies lose it here. Because they think people are denying their experiences, without realizing how much the sloppiness of their explanations, because of the emotional wet nurse security blanket that gm supplies, are crucial to that smugness that premies have. Absolutely bog standard basic logic, forget anything else. Sorry dog, but that's the major problem in premiedom, you forget how to really think, because it isn't valued as highly as the experience. Being awash in internal chemicals that produce truth states is NOT the same as experiencing the truth. And if you're not prepared to grant logic the same respect as your experiences, any discussion is really fatuous and just a form of head wanking in the end. I don't mind having discussions with someoine who is really committed to truth, in ALL its glory, but anyonbe who thinks they know THE truth, as though it was a universal constant, well I find it very sad because it's based upon an intellectual naivete that is stunning, and THAT'S why I say you, along with any other premie who has had 'experiences' is in kindergarten when it comes to truth. Remember dep, I know EXACTLY what the experiences you're talking about are, and are like, but if gm was in this discussion now he'd make it quite plain that any experiences I'm having are not the same, because of his stance re the triangle. Sorry dep, but if you are'nt prepared to make the same committment to truth in your explanetions, as you are into your experiences, your committment to truth is fundamentally shallow, and to be honest a bit pathetic. This why I have no respect for premies, they are very shallow, and that is why they are so useless at discussion of this topic. Truth isn't just about experiences dep, and this you have yet to learn. Yet another example of the kindergarten mentality he promotes.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:42:39 (GMT) From: Han Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Now WHO'S being disengenuous (sp?) Message:

Hamzen, Your comeback is so atypical of the incongruous analysis of what you and so many others on this site have engineered as the standard loop to defend your lack of 'understanding' as to what is really happening when you go inside. Disengenuous indeed, what a contradiction. You continually claim to 'know the experience',,the one that 'rings of truth' but is not 'THE Truth' Well what the hell is 'THE Truth' hamzen??? I can see you now, lying on your death bed sucking air,, like never before, just begging for a little more Seritonin. You can bet I won't be. It's not so much that your 'denying' your experience, as much as,, You have never made the connection that what you've been shown is the key to YOURSELF. Which if explored, begins the lifelong discovery of who you really are,,, which happens to be this pure, infinite, energy, protected by an ocean of the creator's love within your own being. You have conveniently reduced this most sacred path of discovery to being awash in chemical stimuli. If you were ever prepared to explore this experience in depth in the 1st place, YOUR basis for logic would be quite different. Talk about fucking head wanking!! That's all you've got here. If you want to discuss something with someone who is committed to truth,,, I attended 4 programs this month. Not that that makes me out to be anything other than a student,, Twice you make the claim of 'Knowing',,,and have the gall to put words in the Teachers mouth. Your comfortable in stating Dogs committment is 'shallow',, yet you, or anyone on this site have yet to state what you believe to be 'THE TRUTH', in your own experience. This isn't fucking High-school Pre-Psyche1. This is real life. Your the one who is pathetically shallow because your spiritual ego has been shattered by your own lack of committment to your own self discovery on a much much deeper level. Take a deep breath and feel some life inside.. you might find it refreshing. But if you don't have what it takes, so be it,,, but think twice before judging someone else who is making that effort towards seeking the beauty that lies within. Sincerely, Han

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:00:42 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Han Subject: Where to start han, where to start!? Message:

You continually claim to 'know the experience',,the one that 'rings of truth' but is not 'THE Truth' Well what the hell is 'THE Truth' hamzen??? I can see you now, lying on your death bed sucking air,, like never before, just begging for a little more Seritonin. You can bet I won't be. For one, I don't believe in a universal beyond everything truth. The truth for me is the moment. What you are experiencing in that moment is the truth. Anything else ABOUT that truth should have a coherent and arguable structure. Language is social, so any language truth has to be a social truth as well. If there aren't agreed rules in every topic area you get wooly thinking, increased personal bias,etc etc, ie the errors or mutations creep in. Exactly why premies are the worst speakers about their experience of living. Thinking is never given the same priority as experience in their universe. Magic rules the universe, not logic. But their definition of logic is so kindergarten its embarassing. It's either got to be linear or magic as though they were the only two options available. Unbelievable. Consequently when languaging they are at a loss, precisely because they are having their models exposed at a level beyond their experience, and it shows. Han, Han, Han, the whole post was about balance right? the balance between experience and logic. Thats it for me. But precisely because it's balanced, a new synthesis is arrived at which is distictly non-linear. Every single system in the universe has entropy built into it, yet complexity spreads, how can this be. Randomness and the emergent systems that come out of this synthesis is something completely different than a straight addition of qualities of the originators. The balance between the two means that life exists and survives. I'm interested in experiencing the equivalent intensity in both areas because, surprize, surprize, the logical route alters my experiences in a very different but equally as authentic way, as the experience of bliss, joy, one love, all pulsing interconnectedness of everything experiences. You see han, I don't doubt your experience for one moment, but your explanations, I can guarantee you, will be riddled with errors. It's not so much that your 'denying' your experience, as much as,, You have never made the connection that what you've been shown is the key to YOURSELF. Which if explored, begins the lifelong discovery of who you really are,,, which happens to be this pure, infinite, energy, protected by an ocean of the creator's love within your own being. You have conveniently reduced this most sacred path of discovery to being awash in chemical stimuli. I'm sorry, but I have made that connection, and know EXACTLY the territory you are talking about. You see you presume that if one is an ex you couldn't have the same experiences, whereas I know that isn't true from personal EXPERIENCE. Without the chemicals, no experience??!! You make out as though they are less important and thus don't have the same truthness to them. Well if you believe in god, then you are pretty insulting to your creator, who afterr all I presume, made life the universe and everything, a universe of chemicals, out of love. If you were ever prepared to explore this experience in depth in the 1st place, YOUR basis for logic would be quite different. Talk about fucking head wanking!! That's all you've got here. I ended uo where I did because of, precisely because of, my meditation experiences, and the bliss/onelove/pulse experiences that I've had. If you want to discuss something with someone who is committed to truth,,, I attended 4 programs this month. Not that that makes me out to be anything other than a student,, Twice you make the claim of 'Knowing',,,and have the gall to put words in the Teachers mouth. Now I am completely bemused, did you have to travel a long distance, is a committment to truth the number of times you do something? I know people who've spent almost every weekend of the last ten years out raving, and quite often a night or two in the week as well, does that make their committment to truth higher than yours, a bizarre concept. And as for putting words into my mouth, he continually puts words into my mouth, or am I less equal than him? Your comfortable in stating Dogs committment is 'shallow',, yet you, or anyone on this site have yet to state what you believe to be 'THE TRUTH', in your own experience. This isn't fucking High-school Pre-Psyche1. This is real life. Exactly my point, real life, not some fantasy childrens magic cartoon. Your the one who is pathetically shallow because your spiritual ego has been shattered by your own lack of committment to your own self discovery on a much much deeper level. My philosophical take on things has happened precisely because of the incredible depth & beauty of my meditation experiences, among many other things that have produced experiences similarly resonant. Take a deep breath and feel some life inside.. you might find it refreshing. But if you don't have what it takes, so be it,,, but think twice before judging someone else who is making that effort towards seeking the beauty that lies within. For your benefit, I practice holy name quite a lot, thanks. And since I'm finishing lets get back to your earlier point about imagining my death, well you dont suck on serotonin, it flows. When you have a good meditation, you think that your serotonin levels aren't rising?? You do know serotonin is ecstacy family? You don't think your experiences might be a little bit related even? Now since you were wrong about me and my life, completely wrong, I await your response with anticipation.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:49:47 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Han Subject: And what's YOUR death going to be like, Han? Message:

Sitting in your hospital bed, surrounded by pictures of Maharaji who, unless you happened to crawl into a little PAM-ship at one time or another, doesn't even know you exist. Would you expect him to call? To say what? 'Have a nice experience'? Well, he's not going to call because he's out fucking around, Han. All you've got are your pictures. But whatever, that's not what counts. What matters is what's inside, right? So you'll listen to your breath and pretend as you ahve for years that it's conscious somehow and can hear your prayers. Then you'll die, content in your religion. And there goes another human life. Big fucking deal.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 18:36:58 (GMT) From: Han, Email: None To: Jim Subject: And what's YOUR death going to be like, Han? Message:

J, That demeanor you project,,, that fuck you attitude,,that's not really you, is it,,,,?? H

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 18:41:24 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Han, Subject: Yes, -- and what's with the comma's? Message:

Yes, that's really me. But what's with your weird punctuation? As Rob mentioned the other day, it's simply irritating. Is that the effect you're trying for?

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 18:55:53 (GMT) From: Han Email: None To: Jim Subject: Peace~ Message:

Jim, peace, Han

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 19:07:07 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Han Subject: Fuck off Message:

What's 'peace'ful about ignoring someone's simple question? Asshole.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:42:19 (GMT) From: elaine Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Now you're being disengenuous (sp?) Message:

hamzen, That was such a good post I printed it. A few great phrases... - --thinking isn't as valued as as highly as the exp - --Being awash in internal chemicals... --explanations are seen as less imp than the exp. --...committment to truth...(rather than the exp.) Thank you, again hamzen, -See how not name calling and arguing is such a better communication tool? - (as I was saying bef to you) Very good points. Elaine

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:45:35 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: elaine Subject: Now you're being disengenuous (sp?) Message:

Thanks for that. Re verbals, again I've seen some sharp ones from you too. You might find the challenges here a bit sharp, but I always reckon that anyone with new age thinking is gonna have a harder time here, because of the nature of the site. After all gm is a new age teacher if he's anything. I think acknowledging that is just good grace in social terms, no social package is completely free.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:24:21 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Do you realize ther full implication of what you Message:

I forgot to tell you yesterday. My friend the aspirant contact said she was letting her friends that got k in LA build their own relationship w/ M. She wasn't getting involved. Sounds simple enough. Then more comments on their relationship w/ M. Then one more. Then I point out to her what she's saying and ask why doesn't she say - get strong in K or something similar.Rather than 'buliding rel w/ M.' She looks at me and says 'bec there is a relationship w/ M that is essential w/ K - otherwise like M says, you can read about the techs. You need M to really exp K.' I look her in the eyes and say 'You really believe that.' Yes. Then we talk about what if M died it goes on and on. It was a great talk. (And she wasn't mean to me once.) Elaine

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:28:38 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Do you realize ther full implication of what you Message:

Sad isn't it, re her definitions, I'm beginning to see people who got into knowledge as having some kind of learning disability. Our ability to be SO uncritical of magic thinking is a frightening thought.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:37:03 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Do you realize ther full implication of what you Message:

hamzen, Well, it's been said - cults brainwash. And, I might add, my friend would agree that brainwashing went on. It's like you said so succinctly - the experience was more important than - what did you say? - the explanations. No one has ever asked my friend to explain. Do you remember a post I made ages ago where - I tell of sitting w/ a friend on an airplane going home fr a program....I ask her deeply and sincerely what her experience is of 'Holy Name' ---all she REALLY did or could DO was look at me with twinkling eyes and smile ----AS IF she was going to tranmit the exp to me or something!!! It was maddening. Elaine

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:10:36 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: hamzen Subject: SO TRUE!! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:51:15 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: hamzen Subject: In fact thinking about it further , you're using Message:

him like any commodity for personal interest, as a tablet, a bar of washing powder, shall it be cider or hash, etc etc ie listening to yourself, not him. But in his eyes he is more aware of that state of whatever over time, which makes him fundamental to you stepping further along the path, as he so often says himself, you need a teacher, so how do you balance the part of the message you do like with not listening to the main underpinning, remember without maharaji not a leaf moves?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:10:10 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: You're barking Message:

You disagree with your Guru? Really DD, you just haven't understood your role as a devotee very well, have you? Seriously, there are real concerns about the evil effects of Mr Rawat's activities. You lap from a toilet, old pooch.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:34:37 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: JohnT Subject: You're barking Message:

It's perfectly all right for me to disagree with my 'Guru.' I am a premie, i.e., a lover of Truth, not a lover of M's point of view. It's perfectly acceptable for me to think for myself and in fact I always have. I lap from the crystal clear pool of my own experience. It's the only way to go. -- Dogg

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 18:00:25 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: You're barking Message:

I agree it's perfectly OK for you to disagree with the fraudulent Rawat. But it's mixed up thinking to call yourself a premie if you do. That is not what being a premie means. Being a premie means devotion to Mr Rawat and having no room for doubt. You talk of the crystal pool of your experience. But your confused thinking and like of insight is in the way. Dogs often think toilets are wonderful things to drink from.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:08:11 (GMT) From: Anne Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: hamzen - You're barking up the wrong tree dog Message:

Hey Deputy Dog, You say that you 'CHOSE to STICK with m because it's easier when you have outside support.' I want to question you if you are not just stuck with your fears of living your own life and making your own choices. Having to take responsibility for those choices without the fear of what you will be thinking when you draw your last breath. Does your father/mother have to phone you every morning reminding you to go to work and the reasons why, to inspire you or does a tape just come on with your alarm? Do you need inspiration to fed yourself good healthy food? How many soap comercials do you have to watch on tv to inspire you to have a shower? Or do you shower because you are afraid of what others will think if you smell sour? Just how many areas of your life do you still need outside support for? Why is practising k still so hard that you chose to have outside support for 'something' that you were born with and is right there inside of you to access any time you chose? From my understanding k and m is nothing anyone has ever consciously chosen. We were all led by the nose. (pun intended) Check out any of the sites descibing the techniques of brainwashing. All of them were used on us at varying times and that is all the support you are getting from your inspirational videos. We cannot have the 'experience' without the brainwashing. All I can get out of it is a bit of relaxation, no spiritual break throughs, no deeper understanding of my soul, no consciousness raising. Only with the added inspiration that gm delivers can I ever think that by sitting down for an hour I am on a great spiritual journey towards enlightenment. Need the brainwashing or the show is pretty darn boring and I can still see light at a whim. Thanks for this opportunity for me to express my views. Anne

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:30:02 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Anne Subject: Is Anne - the annie/Annie from below? NT Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:53:35 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Is Anne - the annie/Annie from below? Message:

Poor Elaine! :) You are just being tossed about with this name and that name! Who is who? Makes it hard to get your bearings. I know Anne and find her an intelligent, thoughtful person whose friendship I value highly. Annie I do not know. Love, Robyn who also can't keep all these people straight! :)

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 18:28:45 (GMT) From: Anne not annie Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Is Anne - the annie/Annie from below? Message:

Hi Robyn, Now to add more confusion by saying I'm Anne from London forgetting there is more than one London. It is London, Canada. Hope your day is going well. :>) Anne (called Annie only when I'm acting childish or as a term of endearment)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 01:37:01 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Anne not annie Subject: Oh, wow London Message:

Well, for god's sake - London, Ontario!!!! No wonder you were over in NS. Ah, the memories of London... I was there for a weekend - very clean city - had a best friend that moved there after marrying a Canadian. Actually,now I remember going to maybe a downstairs room in a library after seeing a poster w/ M's face prob in '74-'75. Then I remember going to a little ice cream parlor where a guy shocked everyone by trying to screw his girlfriend on a table. That was fun. Alot of parks there. I think you're lucky to live there.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:49:28 (GMT) From: Anne Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Is Anne - the annie/Annie from below? NT Message:

Hi Elaine, No I'm Anne from London. Only check this site out every once in a while. It still provides such a valid 'service' in providing support to premies who have one foot out the door and are becoming ready to start living their lives. For those who have newly reclaimed responsibility for their lives but are so used to having group support for their ideas and questions it is of great benefit until they get steady on their walking legs. My hat off to all who maintain this site. Anne

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:36:47 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Anne Subject: Thanks for sharing your experience Anne (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:02:29 (GMT) From: Anne Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Thanks for sharing your experience Anne (nt) Message:

Your welcome Deputy Dog. I still want to encourgage you to check out brainwashing tech. on the web. There is so much information available as to how we were manipulated to 'have an experience'. Then there is the study of brain chemistry and all that the neurophysiologist have uncovered since the invention of the MRI. Really does take the punch out of any mystic experience or what we were raised to believe as spirituality. Take good care of yourself, Anne /from London/ not Annie

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:55:01 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Anne Subject: London, confusing in and of itself :) Message:

Not London, England :)

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:56:52 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Yikes,they miss satsang so much they're.. Message:

coming on the forum to share their experiences. Lord help us!!!

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 17:30:57 (GMT) From: annie Email: None To: Hal Subject: Yikes,they miss satsang so much they're.. Message:

it's true! [somewhat]

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:49:49 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Everyone Subject: News Flash! Archival Goober tapes resurface !!! Message:

And you can listen Here!

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:48:17 (GMT) From: (Sir) David Email: None To: gErRy Subject: News Flash! Archival Goober tapes resurface !!! Message:

Err, dunno quite what that was, something about CBS? Anyway, Maharaji has just recorded this live satellite broadcast for ex-premies, to be broadcast next August completely LIVE!!! Click here for Maharaji's message to ex-premies and you'll see that Maharaji's door is always open and he really wants all his old devotees back again. Isn't it wonderful!

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:37:22 (GMT) From: Herr Gerr Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Keith's doing it again Message:

I know Keith says he's not a premie anymore, and I'll accept that at face value. However, he has a long history here and he's repeating the same mistakes of his past. I have nothing personal against Keith. Heck I'm sure I'd even quaff a cold one with the guy if we ever met. That said, it's time to give Keith the ole heave ho. For all the obvious reasons.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:48:47 (GMT) From: Herr Keith Email: None To: Herr Gerr Subject: old habits die hard! Message:

Herr Gerr , you would like a cold one,eh? Despite my ugly old habits rearing their heads again? Why don't you set up a web site dedicated to the saying of Herr Keith like you did last time. I loved it. So few people have lavished such attention on me. And you know that unlike most here my main reason for pestering you all is just for attention. God, I love it. I love rambling on with nothing useful to say. I love to read my own words. I'm in it for the kicks. Unlike you Herr gerr. And as for me ex status. You know it's a front don't you? I'm a red blooded premie. Remember Gerr, I was Mick? Perhaps I'm the great imposter. So heave ho away old son. Wish I could really change like all you reformed ones have. have a cold one on me anyway. My shout!

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:55:24 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Herr Keith Subject: old habits die hard! Message:

I really believe you are are no longer a premie, Keith. And the stuff about Mick, well, I was just taking the piss. Winding you up. Not that you needed it. And you know that unlike most here my main reason for pestering you all is just for attention. God, I love it. I love rambling on with nothing useful to say. I love to read my own words. I'm in it for the kicks. God, Keith, that was certainly revealing. Did that come through automatic writing or something?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:02:30 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: gerry Subject: new age techniques, gerry. Message:

Just close your eyes. Breath deeply. Let go of your thoughts. Feel the power of 'one' creep in and out. And away you will fly. It's so easy. Words will flow through you. God will use you. Om! Come on Gerry. You can do it.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:27:35 (GMT) From: Mick aka Harry aka Keith Email: None To: Keith Subject: Hi Gerry Message:

Ok, time to come clean. I'm feelin' bad about the continual messing of Gentle Gerry's head. Mick and Keith are the same guy, OK!!!! Would I lie to you? Mick Keith

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 01:50:02 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Mick aka Harry aka Keith Subject: M/H/K/ huh? Message:

Wait a minute am I getting this right? Are you saying that you are Harry? Mick I never heard of. I'm very confused. Elaine

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 03:31:43 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Elaine Subject: M/H/K/ huh? Message:

Elaine it's not importent but I'd better say something in case Mick's post creates confusion. Some time ago Gerry got all confused about the identies of Mick(alias Harry) and me. He really believed we were the same person. And then he would believe we were not. And backwards and forwards. Mick and I played with this . Mick is actually a friend of mine who lives close to where I used to live up until 14 months ago.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:23:27 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Keith Subject: M/H/K/ huh? Message:

Uh-huh - so Mick is Harry and you are you.Ok got it. P.S. Pranam Harry.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 05:50:57 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Elaine Subject: yep. I am I. NT.OT. Message:

nt.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:10:13 (GMT) From: Frank Copraphiliac Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Elaine, may I suggest Message:

If you want to use a hindu greeting, how about using namaste instead of pranam. Pranam, as you may know, is sort of a 'button' word with a some of us exes who spent a lot of time flat on our faces in front of fatboy's ugly picture or worse, in person. It has negative connotations of placing one's self below another. If you were a bit more senstive to the purpose of this forum and the people here, you might understand this without being told. Namaste, on the other hand, roughly translates to: ''the Divine in me recognizes and salutes the Divine in you.'' See the difference? Thanks, dear. I mean, Namaste.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:52:21 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Frank Copraphiliac Subject: Elaine, may I suggest Message:

It's a JOKE - between Harrysan and me( and Oliver and Robyn for that matter.) I hear what you're saying, tho. But a joke is a joke.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 02:46:42 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Elaine Subject: M/H/K/ huh? Message:

Dear Elaine, Just let it go dear, as if you never read it. :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 04:24:53 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Robyn Subject: M/H/K/ huh? Message:

Thank you,honey - but who's going to hold my hand through all this?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 06:10:31 (GMT) From: Harryji Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Um, er..... Elaine Message:

Dear Elaine, we better turn the lights up, 'cause that ain't my hand you're holding ;) Why did the chicken cross the road? For some fowl reason.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 18:00:54 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Harryji Subject: Harrysan!!! Message:

Harrysan, It was so soft - of course, I thought it was yours. At least I thought it was your hand.... Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 11:27:17 (GMT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Everyone Subject: Deprogramming Message:

Deprogramming Lee Coleman, Psychiatrist delivered at the International Coalition for Religious Freedom Conference on 'Religious Freedom and the New Millenium' Tokyo, Japan May 23-25, 1998 What I want to do today is briefly go over some of the mistakes that America has made so that your country can avoid some of them. The philosopher George Santayana said that those who choose to forget the past are condemned to relive it, or something along those lines. I like to say that you can choose to ignore history, but it is not going to ignore you. The forces of history will keep rolling on and, if you are ignorant of what has happened, you will be a victim rather than make an impact by your actions and perhaps changing it. So I want to go over what has happened in the United States starting in the 1960s and 1970s to trace the beginnings of a trend that is obviously very much still a problem throughout the world. How many of you know the name Ted Patrick? Don't be bashful; if you don't know it, don't worry about it. How many don't know who Ted Patrick is? OK, fine, there are enough people that I want to go over some of this. Ted Patrick is a man whose nephew had some contact with a group in Southern California that call themselves the Children of God. This occurred in the late 1960s. He was upset that his nephew spent some time there, and he came up with the idea that he would just go and take him back. The nephew was a minor at the time. Afterward, he began to talk about what he was doing. Now this man was not a scholar. He did not have any advanced degrees, but he came up with a brilliant move, which incredibly advanced his cause. What he did was to call what he did deprogramming. What exactly did he do? He committed the crimes of kidnapping and false imprisonment. Those are crimes everywhere. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But if it happens, it still shouldn't be happening and it is against the law. If you take somebody where they do not want to be and they are an adult, that is kidnapping. If you hold them against their will, that is false imprisonment. Those are two very serious crimes. But by calling those crimes deprogramming, he was able to fool--with the help of other forces--millions and millions of people. They didn't see what he was doing as crimes. Deprogramming means I am taking somebody who is already programmed, so I am not a bad guy. I am not committing crimes. Somebody else is the bad guy. The people who did the programming are the ones who did something wrong. I am doing something good. I am undoing the harm. What is the harm that is supposedly done? Their mind has been stolen from them. Now, these were not children, even though he wrote a book called Let Our Children Go. But the children weren't children but adults. Obviously, if they truly were children, you don't have to kidnap your own child. You have legal control of them already. You can call the police. You can go and take them yourself, bodily. What he was doing was kidnapping and falsely imprisoning adults. But by using those words he made it look like he was liberating the minds of people whose minds were already imprisoned. In your communities and countries, you need to know about this background. I will go into more, so that you can teach people not to be fooled by these words. You need to learn what the correct words are and teach them to others. When somebody is taken bodily, you need to call it kidnapping and you need to attack the kidnappers. You need to put them on trial. Too often, members of new religious movements have spent too much of their time simply denying that they were doing anything wrong. They were saying, we don't brainwash people or hold them prisoner. While that is true, what they were not doing was putting the focus on their attackers. They were not saying that the people who say that they are deprogrammers are kidnappers, are criminals who are violating the law. I remember when this was getting started, I watched a false imprisonment on television. Just to show you how these words had such an effect on the dominant society, Ted Patrick actually let a television network station know what he was going to do. He wanted to show everybody what a good thing was going on. So, after he and his assistants kidnapped someone, the television cameras were all ready as they brought this person into the motel room where they were going to lock him up for days and verbally beat on him until he agreed to leave the religion. This was shown all over the nation, and everybody applauded Patrick as a hero. He not only was seen as a hero by millions of Americans, but he received the cooperation of people such as the police. The police would sometimes actually assist him. Most of the time they didn't have to assist him. They simply looked the other way, because they had been sucked into this fraud by the use of language in which they saw these adults as children because Patrick said they were children. They believed he was freeing somebody. They accepted the notion that deprogrammers had to steal the person’s body to free his mind. This was true not only for the police--which in America are usually local--but even the FBI. The FBI is a national law enforcement agency that generally does not get involved unless it is outside the scope of a city or state, but on this issue they were sympathetic. The courts, the judges, responded the same way. The media--radio, television, and newspapers--presented these crimes as though they were good and the people who were protesting them (Jerry Gutman, Malony, some other people, and myself) were the bad guys. We were defending cults, etc. It has been an uphill struggle to try to get people to realize who the criminals were. Eventually, even though they had all this initial success, the criminals needed to justify their actions in a better way. Just Patrick saying this I have to steal their body in order to free their minds wasn't going to satisfy forever. What the deprogrammers had to do was find people who spoke with an authority that would last for years: experts. In the United States, there is no question who the high priests of modern society are. When difficult social and moral problems come up, the people who are expected to have answers are psychiatrists and other mental health professionals. What they say is supposed to be expert science. So the movement to justify these crimes was put in the hands of, rationalized and justified by, a small but influential group of mental health professionals. You have already heard about Margaret Singer. There are a number of others. In Dr. Malony's and my material, you will see the names of these mental health professionals. They took Ted Patrick's statement that it was deprogramming and created a set of ideas which in American slang we would just say is total crap, total nonsense. It wasn't really any more sophisticated than what Patrick was saying, but it used a little more jargon. The idea was that even though members of new religions say that they joined of their own free will and want to continue, that they are not being held against their will and that this is their choice, they are actually under mind control. Such statesments, it was asserted, only proved how effective mind control is. In my debates with supporters of deprogramming, I remember more than one set of parents saying: 'The only way I will ever be convinced that my son or daughter is not brainwashed is if they leave the group. As long as they stay I will be convinced that they are only staying because they don't really have free will anymore. They think they are making a choice, but that is only because of how clever this religion or this group is that has manipulated them.' Once this movement to justify these crimes was started, the new helpers -- the mental health professionals with this doctrine of mind control--enabled them to develop strategies to do the same thing but clean it up. You don't just physically grab somebody, because a little at a time people began to think maybe that was against the law. Maybe that was kidnapping. So they came up with a new idea. They called it legal deprogramming. That was kind of an admission that the other deprogramming was illegal. Of course, they would never admit that. Nonetheless, they came up with this term legal deprogramming. What was that? You simply get a mental health professional to write a letter saying that in his opinion this person has lost the ability to make a choice. It was the same old nonsense but on letterhead stationery. Dr. Joe Smith or Dr. Margaret Singer would state that, in their opinion, a person had lost the ability to really choose to be in this group. A judge would hear this report or testimony, sometimes without the mental health professional ever talking to the person. But don't you dare leave this room thinking that if they did talk to them, then it would have been OK. It is just as wrong either way, because there is no mental examination as to whether you have free will. That is ridiculous. With or without any conversation between the mental health professional and the individual, it still was a fraud that the courts were accepting. The fraud was that a mental health professional has some expert way to determine whether you choose to do something. Under the law, this type of legal deprogramming in many states was called a conservatorship. Now there are a small number of situations where a person is truly unable to care for his needs through physical disability or mental deficiency, and the court will then appoint somebody to be his guardian. That is not what this was all about at all. Another method was to simply put a person in a mental hospital against his will, because the law allows people to be put in a mental hospital if a doctor thinks they need to be there. Another strategy they came up with was to go after not just one member but the whole church. Sue the church and claim that it is brainwashing everybody, that all its members are victims of mind control. A number of those cases were successful at the trial, but when higher courts reviewed these cases, they declared 'Nonsense! There is no way to judge that some conversions are OK and others are not, and certainly not by mental health expert testimony.' Those were some strategies that worked for awhile. Then they came up with other ideas. Some people said, 'Let's not wait until the person is in the group and then try to get him out; let's do some evaluation when he seems to want to join. Let's get a psychiatrist to examine him or have a psychologist give him tests. Those people who have converted because they really want to, go ahead, we hate to lose you, but go ahead. But those people who have converted because they have lost their free will, according to a psychiatrist, will be removed.' Again, this is complete fraud, using psychiatry and psychology as the cover. You are going to see those things in many of your communities if you have any kind of controversy about a religious or political group that is disapproved of. Sooner or later you are going to see mental health professionals brought into it to justify what somebody wants to do. I want to just briefly mention a new threat that I have been working on for about 14 years. To my knowledge it has not become a regular part of the assault on new religious groups, but it is so dangerous that you need to know about it. In the United States, we have a system of evaluating child abuse accusations that is totally out of control. Thousands of people who are completely innocent have been incorrectly convicted of child abuse--especially child sexual abuse. If you are involved in a child custody battle in a divorce and so forth, it is a major weapon with which you can instantaneously get the upper hand. That system is dangerous, primarily because children from ages as young as three or four years old up to adolescence are being interviewed by agents of the government, social workers, and police officers in secret sessions where nobody ever finds out exactly what was said to those children. They are interviewed in such a way as to tell the child, 'We know that something has been done to you, and you have to tell us. It will be good if you tell us.' Now I don't think any of us are too unhappy about the fall of communist governments throughout the world. But I can tell you this: I am not aware of any communist government coming up with the idea of using the state to browbeat children until they accuse their parent of having sexually abused them. Then the child is taken away from the person and he is put in prison, sometimes for the rest of his life. That is happening right now in the United States and a few other English-speaking nations. It may spread to your county as well. I see that as a very dangerous weapon waiting to be used against movements such as many of you belong to. Beware of it. Learn about the stuff that has been going on as well as this new stuff, and you will then be prepared to educate your community. I hope you will not make as many mistakes as we have made in the United States.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 20:43:15 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Mili Subject: Deprogramming Message:

It's amazing how exasperating willful stupidity can be, isn't it?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:33:20 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mili Subject: Child Abuse Message:

Mili, You've raised several issues here, but the one I'd like to comment right now is the child abuse one. First, because police questioning of child abuse victims may not be as sensitive as it could be, doesn't mean that the victims were not abused. You should also be aware that small, closed, organised groups often attract abusers. Religious organisations tend to 'bury their heads in the sand' when officials are accused of these crimes. This has certainly been the case with Maharaji, Jagdeo and Elan Vital. It appears nobody in the cult has done anything about Jaqgdeos trail of disgusting abuse, despite being informed several times about it, and despite the fact that in the UK, he is wanted for questioning about his crimes. Jagdeos victims, who have so far come forward, are mature, intelligent women, quite capable of describing what happened to them when they were children, at the hands of this despicable character. They have not been 'led by the police' to describe something that didn't happen. Mili, what do you think about the way Maharaji and the cult have responded to these very serious allegations against Jagdeo? Anth Ginn

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:40:25 (GMT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: AJW Subject: Child Abuse Message:

OK, I'll disregard your use of the bigoted 'snarl' word cult for the time being, (like in, 'every religion down the street that is not your own is a cult'), and let me say that I believe that there is definitely a possibility that Jagdeo could've abused those kids. If you had reasons to suspect it happened, you did the right thing to report it to the police. Still, I don't see the reason to discredit Maharaji's work of 30+ years and the whole movement on the basis of this isolated incident. It's like saying the Pope is a fraud and the Catholic Curch is a demonic organization because some priests were documented pedophile and homosexual cases. Get my point? It would be expected that this kind of thing would first be attempted to be dealt with within the organization itself. How do you know that Maharaji has not dealt with it? From what I hear Jagdeo is not touring anymore. And again, if you had proof of it, I applaud you taking it to the police. This is a huge movement, and a huge organization with many people involved. Some weird shit is bound to happen on the basis of the law of probability alone. It doesn't mean that the organization promotes, or endorses that kind of thing.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:39:04 (GMT) From: VP Email: None To: Mili Subject: A word on churches as cults-Mili Message:

Mili, some of churches down the street from me CAN resemble cults. Good point. Here's the difference, they are on the up and up about what they do and what they stand for. They tell you to your face the first time that you visit that the deal is devotion to Christ. They say OUT LOUD every single Sunday in front of everyone exactly what they stand for. The church leaders will meet with you and answer all of your questions. They will let you join right away if you are of a like mind. You don't have to go thorugh this secretive initiation period of proving yourself worthy. (at least in most churches around here.) Some churches also spend a lot of time in service to other people, helping mankind to make the world a better place. One church I know of takes food to the children's shelther, to the homeless shelther and to shut ins. They have a visiting service for shut ins. They are involved in a lot more than their own selfish needs and they are also clued in to the fact that helping other people can be a way to make one feel more fullfilled. I'm not saying churches are perfect--some of them are downright freaky. You ARE in a cult, Mili. But if you are happy, why do you care so much about the semantics anyway. VP

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:27:45 (GMT) From: (Sir) David Email: None To: Mili Subject: I think I'll join up but then... Message:

'This is a huge movement, and a huge organization' Which movement and organisation is this? Do you mean that organisation which used to hold video events in library rooms with four or five people attending? Has it suddenly become fashionable then? Is it a big cult with lots of spaced-out chicks all luv bombing all over the place? Or is it that group of middle-aged people who aren't allowed to talk about their 'experience'?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:38:47 (GMT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: (Sir) David Subject: I think I'll join up but then... Message:

It's not just your local little video hall in Hereford, or wherever David. Even a conservative estimate would have to be at least 200,000 people regularly attending events worldwide. Many, many more have received it over the years, and I am sure practice it ocassionally. Not that it matters, anyway. Knowledge is an individual experience.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:29:29 (GMT) From: (Sir) David Email: None To: Mili Subject: Not much of a cult then is it Message:

But most of those people are in India, where having a guru is the same as a Catholic attending mass. Look, people want to be 'saved', they want to be luv bombed, they want to be part of an organisation which is removing the terrible suffering of the world. Watching some guy on a satellite broadcast is not ging to do it, I'm afraid. Especially since most people don't exactly warm to him. Been there, done that, seen it all and know the score, as everyone does here.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:03:23 (GMT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: (Sir) David Subject: Not much of a cult then is it Message:

Well, jolly good for you, then! You'd be surprised how people are turning up at the sattelite broadcasts in Zagreb these days, though. People coming in for the very first time, or because their friends told them about it. And old, old premies too. :o)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:33:43 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Mili Subject: Ha ha ha, phase two has arrived!!! (nt) Message:

a

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:35:25 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Mili Subject: Not much of a cult then is it Message:

Of course Milli people are watching the satellite events! Can you imagine how many times how we heard of Mahariachichi that without the master K is nothing? Premies depend in the master,and that makes it a cult! Isn't? Youre shinning as always! Premies are funny people...childish. SB

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:08:07 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: SB Subject: SB from other threads Message:

This didn't deserve a whole new thread so I'm interjecting from what's gone in-active. 'If I was into $$ I would be doing something differently' - yes, for a man (M) that is supposed to be so into $$ - I don't think he's doing a good job. I don't personally know anyone that gives him any $ directly - and why not. He's not doing a good job - if $$ is so imp to him. If I were him and $$ was so important - I might think about 're-packaging' this whole Kn thing. The est people seemed to change to 'meet the times'. I think they pull in alot with seminars or intensives. It doesn't make sense -I don't think M is 'stupid' per se - so is it just that he has invested wisely and doesn't need to seek more $$ - as in, the investments are just so lucrative? I find that hard to believe. If someone is into $$ - they are into $$ period- it doesn't stop bec of investments,usually. Inactive: And I posted back to you a long post, but I made a mistake and it says it's from SB instead of Elaine - that was what 'What the hell?' was all about,BTW. You probably figured that out by now.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:54:30 (GMT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: SB Subject: Not much of a cult then is it Message:

Sure, SB. Whatever you say. You've got it all figured out. Still, it's so much fun to be around Maharaji. And Knowledge is such a deep, satisfying experience. There's nothing like it, really.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 19:24:43 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Mili Subject: Not much of a cult then is it Message:

How you ever being in love?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 20:38:52 (GMT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: SB Subject: Not much of a cult then is it Message:

Yeah, sure - about two or three times in my life, I guess. It's nice. It's beautiful, in fact. I appreciate it all - the longing, and the fulfillment. Still, I've found that when you love a person, it comes and it goes. And sometimes, there's jealousy and anger, too. But Knowledge is special. Not a substitute for a relationship, mind you. But, it touches a deeper place. It's something that's there to be fulfilled, too. And it just makes everything complete. I enjoy it all, and I am thankful.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:16:19 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Mili Subject: Not much of a cult then is it Message:

How it differs, the love, that is? How much deeper is it and how do you note that difference?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:53:11 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Mili Subject: Fun? Message:

Mili, You said it's so much fun to be around Maharaji. Do you mean at programs it's fun? Or have you really been around him personally in his private life. I never found it much fun being around him. In fact the closer I came to his physical person, the more stifling it became. He was always looking at me as if I was a piece of shit. I thought at the time that it was his aura of mastery. Now I realise he was indeed looking at me as if I was a giant dog turd. Some folks have a strange idea of fun I guess. Have you seen those guys who collect the registration numbers of trains or aircraft? They have more fun than people around Maharaji. Hal

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 00:47:54 (GMT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: Hal Subject: Fun? Message:

Hal, I can understand that you felt like a piece of dogshit around Maharaji. Just don't go making generalizations about everyone else feeling the same way. It's a highly individual thing, you know. What I meant was, being with Maharaji at the festivals. It was always great fun, and I don't regret a single ocassion. In fact those were the most memorable public events I'd ever been to. Add to that a Bob Dylan concert in Vienna in 1982, a Rolling Stones concert a long time ago, and last and not least Jimmy Page and Robert Plant here in Zagreb last year. Mili

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 21:10:17 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Mili Subject: Fun? Message:

A misunderstanding on your part Mili. I didn't say I felt like a peice of dog shit around M. I said he looked at me like I was a dog turd. I was actually very happy that he looked at me at all. Hal

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:18:10 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mili Subject: Maharaji and Child Abuse Message:

Mili, According to one of the victims, Maharaji did deal with it. She reported it to Randy Prouty and Judy Osbourne(both instructors). The reason she reported it a second time, was because Jagdeo was still at large after reporting it the first time. After reporting a second time, she received a message back from the instructor telling her, 'Maharaji knew about it already, and was glad it wasn't a new case.' And guess what? Jagdeo wasn't even taken out of circulation. And on the use of the word 'cult'- why is it a bigoted snarl word Mili? It describes Elan Vital very well. Maybe I touched a nerve here, and you don't like to consider yourself in a cult. Do you think it's ok to describe the Moonies as a cult? If so, why not the Premies too? Anth the snarling bigot fascist

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:15:08 (GMT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: AJW Subject: Premies and Moonies Message:

What's the diff between premies and moonies, Anth? Ummm. I guess you'll have to figure that one out for yourself. Let me give you a hint, though. Premies are just about the most heterogenous group of people you're ever likely to meet.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:14:18 (GMT) From: Powerman Email: None To: Mili Subject: Premies and Moonies Message:

I think one of the hardest realizations for me happened years after leaving maharaji. I realized there really wasn't any difference between being a premie and being a moonie... they both think they have the corner on being saved, they both think their leader is God, they both think they're blissfully happy, and they're both wrong.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:04:51 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mili Subject: See the premie dodge the difficult question Message:

come on Mili, you can do better than that, 'What's the difference between a Premie and a Moonie?' Anth who calls a cult a cult

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:54:53 (GMT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: AJW Subject: See the premie dodge the difficult question Message:

Gee, Anth - I really don't know too much about the Moonies, and I never cared enough to find out. All I know is they're some kind of Christian offshoot of Korean origin. I never liked the Rev. Moon, either. It all looks like some kind of fundamentalist, 'by the book', religion with strict codes about everything and that was never my cup of tea. I just happen to like the freewheeling premie option. No DOs and DON'Ts about it, and just a lot of IF YOU WANT TOs. I don't practice Knowledge because I HAVE TO. I do it because it's nice. I consider myself just an ordinary person. You can call me a 'cult member' if you like. You can call me anything you want. Nigger, Kike, Commie, Wop. To me, it just speaks volumes about your paranoia, intolerance and narrow-mindedness, that's all. You're the one with the frothy mouth here, you know.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 09:10:12 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Mili Subject: See the premie dodge the difficult question Message:

Do you think you are having an experience that no-one apart from premies can experience, or not? If yes, by definition, you are in a cult. If not you are fooling yourself almost as much.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:38:38 (GMT) From: Wants to know about Email: None To: AJW Subject: Jagdeo and Child Abuse Accusations Message:

Anth, you wrote: 'She reported it to Randy Prouty and Judy Osbourne(both instructors). The reason she reported it a second time, was because Jagdeo was still at large after reporting it the first time. After reporting a second time, she received a message back from the instructor telling her, 'Maharaji knew about it already, and was glad it wasn't a new case.'' As far as I remeber you once wrote that Judy and Randy did not confirm that they had reported the incident to Maharaji? So what is true? I once read one or two Journeys about Jagdeo. As far as I understood, Jagdeo did not have sexual intercourse with his victims. What did he actually do? And why didn't you report it when it happened?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:52:31 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Wants to know about Subject: Jagdeo and Child Abuse Accusations Message:

Judy and Randy did confirm that they reported Jagdeos crimes to Maharaji. They confirmed it to the victim who asked them to report it. If you want to know more details, why don't you ask them, or better still, ask Maharaji. Who are you by the way? And why are you so interested in this subject? Anth the curious.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:06:57 (GMT) From: Still wants to know about Email: None To: AJW Subject: Jagdeo and Child Abuse Accusations Message:

If you give me the adress of the victims I will ask them. You wrote: 'Judy and Randy did confirm that they reported Jagdeos crimes to Maharaji. They confirmed it to the victim who asked them to report it.' I remember someone (you?) once wrote that they; Judy and Randy did not confirm that they had told Maharaji himself about it. So Did they confirm to the victim that the had told Maharaji or did they confirm that the would tell him?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:42:43 (GMT) From: Just curious Email: None To: AJW Subject: Qestion to Anth Message:

Did anyone ever report Jagdeo to the police?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 12:44:46 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Just curious Subject: Qestion to Anth Message:

Yes, I did. Anth the Grass

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:06:45 (GMT) From: Just curious Email: None To: AJW Subject: What happened? Message:

Can an 'outsider' report a crime to the police? I assume you were not a victim. What did the victims do?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:17:09 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Just curious Subject: What happened? Message:

Hi again, Anybody can report a crime. The reason I reported it was because I believed that one of the children was abused while in my care, at Unity School, so I felt some extra responsibility. Some of the victims have made statements which are now with the Police. Anth Ginn

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 13:36:55 (GMT) From: Just curious Email: None To: AJW Subject: What happened? Message:

Why didn't you report the incident 15 or 20 years ago? You wrote: 'Some of the victims have made statements which are now with the Police.' Does this mean that they went to the police by themselves and made a signed statement? Or does it mean that you gave the police transcripts of posts from the 'Journeys'?

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:19:35 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Just curious Subject: What happened? Message:

How do you know I didn't report it 20 years ago? And who are you? Anth the just curious too.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:49:53 (GMT) From: Just curious Email: None To: AJW Subject: Would you please answer Anth? Message:

I asked: 'Why didn't you report the incident 15 or 20 years ago? You wrote: 'Some of the victims have made statements which are now with the Police.' Does this mean that they went to the police by themselves and made a signed statement? Or does it mean that you gave the police transcripts of posts from the 'Journeys'?' I am just curious.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 14:56:31 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Just curious Subject: Would you please answer Jc? Message:

Just curious, In my last post I asked you two questions, which you didn't answer. You answer my questions and I'll answer yours. Anth the two way traffic.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 15:12:54 (GMT) From: Just curious Email: None To: AJW Subject: Would you please answer Anth? Message:

Question 1. How do I know you did not report it to the police? I dn't know, I just guessed. Question 2 - I already answered, I am just curious. So your turn- answer my questions

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:06:27 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Just curious Subject: Apparently Maharaji's got the answer Message:

Hey JC, Check with EV. Apparently, according to Jethro, they did their own internal investigation. I'm sure Maharaji will be happy to answer questions about it at his next program. All you have to do is submit them in advance to his web site. It works like a charm, I'm told.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 16:01:42 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Just curious Subject: Would you please answer Anth? Message:

I suggest your questions will be better answered by the police. They are in possesion of more information on his crimes than I am. (Unless you can put your incredible guessing power to work again, in which case you don't need to ask them anything do you?) Anth the definitely not clairvoyant.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 17:00:14 (GMT) From: Not curious anymore Email: None To: AJW Subject: YOU ARE A COWARD, ANTH Message:

and you have zero credibility.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 12:38:52 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Not curious anymore Subject: Oh yeah... Message:

...but not too scared to put my name to my words you big brave anonymous lover of truth. Anthony Ginn

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 12:59:23 (GMT) From: Not very curious Email: None To: AJW Subject: Oh yeah...Anth Message:

.... but not brave enough to answer the question I asked you. And by the way, if you try to say that I am not better because I did not give my name, I would say I am pretty brave, but I' ve learnt my lessons.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:30:11 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Not very curious Subject: You answer mine, I'll answer yours Message:

Maybe you didn't understand 'kiss my ass', or is it 'not very curious'. I answered several of your questions, then I asked you a couple. One about what makes you think I didn't report Jagdeos crime 20 years ago- you gave me some bullshit about 'you guessed'. The other question was who are you. You didn't answer that either. So I said, 'You answer my questions and I'll answer yours'. Then you come back with this pathetic, childish drivel about me being a coward. Lets try again? Who are you? What makes you think I didn't report Jagdeos crimes to the police 20 years ago? What is your position in the cult? What would you say are your masters 3 biggest faults? What's the difference between a premie and a moonie? What do you think should be done about Jagdeos abuse, and the cults protection of him? Anth the just curious

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:50:54 (GMT) From: Curious about Email: None To: AJW Subject: how pathetic you can be Anth Message:

I asked you some questions, I begged for an answer 9 times. You were evasive, instead of replying, you started to ask questions. Standard attitude for a person on thin ice. You don't really need to be a genious to understand that you did not report about this case many years ago. Neither to understand that the police does not have a case and that there is no sworn statement from Abi or Susan. But I wanted to know the truth - for personal reasons. So take your evasive lame questions and stick them where they belong. It is so boring - you repeat the same pattern (and questions) over and over. Dream on

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:04:21 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Curious about Subject: Could be worse mate... Message:

You asked, ‘”Did anyone ever report Jagdeo to the police? “ I replied, “Yes, I did.” You then asked, “Can an 'outsider' report a crime to the police?” I replied, “Anybody can report a crime.” You then asked, “What did the victims do?” I replied, “Some of the victims have made statements which are now with the Police.” You then asked, “Why didn't you report the incident 15 or 20 years ago?” To which I replied, “How do you know I didn't report it 20 years ago? “ I also asked, “Who are you?” You ignored my two questions. I asked you again. You replied, “Question 1. How do I know you did not report it to the police? I dn't know, I just guessed. Question 2 - I already answered, I am just curious. Two complete bullshit answers. And now I’m a cringing coward with zero credibility because I won’t answer your questions right? Well, it could be worse, I could be a sycophantic, brain dead, snot sucking, toe kissing, cult zombie, trying to protect a paedophile and miserable failure of a master, afraid of honest debate, with his head stuck so far up his arse his farts sound like, “Bholay Shree Satgurudev”. Suppose I’d better count my blessings. Anth the zero credibility. Oh, by the way, I didn’t report Jagdeos crimes twenty years ago because I didn’t know about them then. When I found out about what this sick freak had been up to , I reported it.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 22:12:28 (GMT) From: Not curious Email: None To: AJW Subject: Could be worse mate... Message:

Dear Anth I got the answers I was looking for. I hope you understand that you could have given them to me. The questions I asked of importance, you did not reply to. I apologize for being rather on the edge about this thing, but it was really important for me to find out about it. So I think there are no conclusion, whatever Maharaji knew or did not knew will be speculations. For me I have fight the depression that has arisen in me lately as a result of the sexual abuse that took place in my life when I was a kid. I dont know how it is with Abi and Susan, but my depression is not about the person who abused me, because he was also very friendly to me, but it is about my psycological sufferings. For me this is the end of the discussion.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 10:08:58 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Not curious Subject: Could be worse mate... Message:

not curious, I'm truly sorry to hear that you had to suffer when you were young in this way. The fact that you are able to talk about it here shows that you have started to deal with it in some way. I wonder if you told anyone about it when it happened. One of the things that upset me about what happened to Abi- she was eight years old at the time- was that she told people about it afterwards but nothing was done. It made me think, 'It is terrible enough that this has happened to such a young child. It is terrible that such a disgusting person is roaming around commiting these offences. But in a way, it is just as terrible, when a child reports it, that nobody does anything about it. The message this silence gives the child about the world they are living in is, 'Nobody really cares about this stuff. Our society condones this behaviour.' Child abuse is something that we all condem superficially, but encountering, not as a victim, it is another matter. You don't want to believe it. You don't want to accuse anybody of it in case you make a mistake. It's such a private part of the victims life that you feel you shouldn't poke around in there. When I heard about Abis abuse, I had all these feelings. But the fact of what I'd heard wouldn't go away. It stayed in the back of my mind, waiting patiently for me to do something. The first thing I did was mention it in my Journey. After that, things took a momentum of their own. I was contacted by Abi and two more of Jagdeos victims (one wishes to remain out anonymouse at the moment). Both Abi and Susan have been incredibly strong and brave in dealing with this. They have truly been an inspiration, and have carried the awful injustice of what happened to them throughout their lives. My role has always been to support them both with my whole heart. They are both wonderful women. Anth

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 02:14:17 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Not curious Subject: Healing Message:

That depression is a necessary phase. It's a good thing - you're moving along and eventually out of the feelings. You will triumph - that's why we're called survivors and not victims. But it takes awhile - feel the many feelings and know they will pass to other feelings and then others. You'll be all the wiser for it and a deeper person.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:32:50 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Deeper person... Message:

what is that?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:36:54 (GMT) From: Not curious Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Thanks for your kind words Elaine (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 23:39:53 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Not curious Subject: that is a hard thing... Message:

One thing about child abuse is many kids do feel a lot of conflict like this. If your abuser was friendly to you in other ways, and that friendliness is something that meant something to you, it can be so terribly confusing. I know other victims who have shared such guilty feelings because they loved and hated the one who abused them. That is why it is such a horrible betrayal, and such a lasting wound. I was watching this topic for awhile before I jumped in. I frankly do not like talking about it anymore. I always end up feeling I am having to defend myself for telling the truth. I also feel that unless something breaks, like another victim coming forward or maybe some of the people who knew about it developing a conscience, that I have done all I can do about it. I didn't want to answer your questions at all, but you began to question my crediblility, I had to. I am sorry your terrible memories were stirred up. I am sad but not suprised that you think that there has to be some explanation other than Rawat knew. Most premies will cling to that. But, I don't really see any other way to interpet what occured. Frankly, if I had had access to him and the ability to tell him myself, I think premies would still disbelieve me. It is just too threatening. Again, I do not know why he did so little about it, I really thought he would stop him, if only to protect his own image. I hope you are okay curious and not curious.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 08:31:31 (GMT) From: Not Curious Email: None To: Susan Subject: Thanks Susan it is a hard thing... Message:

One hopefully good thing about this is that I finally will try to find a therapist. And to be honest, about Maharaji, I cannot believe that he really knew that Jagdeo did abuse children. It is totally illogical and is contrary to every experience I had with Maharaji.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:40:27 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: AJW Subject: You have the most patience....NT Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:24:15 (GMT) From: Curious about Email: None To: Anth Subject: how you stand here Message:

I read the corresponcance between you and Glen Whitaker. In one paragraph you state: 'Whether Maharaji knew about Jagdeo’s pedophilic activities or not was never an issue with me.' How come this seems to be the only issue by now, this allogation you have made so many times to brainwash ex-premies that every ex-premie thinks this is true. And by the way, what do you really know about how victims of sexual abuse feel. As a victim, to me it seems like stiring into such memories just makes it worse. Did you try to provide Abi or Susan with professional help to overcome their sufferings or is this just a sick case of revenge to Maharaji from your side?

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:54:28 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Curious about Subject: Anth Message:

Anth is a hero to me and to Abi. His attitude toward all of this has been very validating for me. The fact that he spoke to the police was for me, finally, someone really cares about this. It does matter. I agree, that stirring things up for people who do not want to make the choice to tell the truth about the abuser might hurt. In fact, I know that is true sadly. But, if you really are a person that was hurt as a child, don't you think telling your story, and being believed, has incredible healing power? For me, the most hurtful thing was that nothing was done. I feel like the collusion to cover this up, and the implication I am a liar, is the thing that pours salt in the wound. Wouldn't you feel the same way, if this happened to you? You are so wrong about Anth. He is the bravest person in this whole thing. He has nothing to gain by taking on this issue. He does it because he cares about kids, and because he has a conscience.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 19:37:43 (GMT) From: No more curious Email: None To: Susan Subject: + reply to Susan Message:

Dear Susan I was 10 year old when I was sexually abused. It made me suffer for many years and had great consequenses in my life. To what I have heard, a lot of people have been victims of pedophile crimes. My experience in this case is that I involved myself in a discussion about Jagdeo. And I started to read about it. In the discussions that followed, ex-premies began to call me a pedophile. This made me start to remember the incident I experienced and I realize by now that I really became very depressed by the whole thing. Not only I was reminded about this thing I almost had forgotten, but the attitude of the ex-premies and the memories stirred up so many things in me. So instead of this being a thing I almost had forgotten about, I was deeply disturbed by it. It is also my opinion that the ex-premie site, which has the idealistic purpose to 'cure' people, really is a tool to stir up negative vibes. Look at Jim. I read some posts of him in the archives from the beginning of the forum, he was almost human. Now he is more pitbullish than ever, and finds his pleasure in abusing people verbally. It seems to me that the ex-premie site produces a lot of losers. I do believe you, I also believe that Anth is intending to be a a person of good will. But unless his actions were in the line of helping you and Abi to have professional help if you needed that, I question his true motives. Honestly, I agree that Jagdeo should have been stopped, and I would be the first one to try to stop him. I do not doubt your honesty regarding Randy and Judy. But I sincerely think there is likely that there has been some misunderstanding. I still very much doubt that Maharaji knew about the Jagdeo story.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 20:05:06 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Bjorn Subject: It's Fucking Bjorn, the pedophile himself !!! Message:

You sick, sick fucker. Listen asshole, you don't almost 'forget' being molested as a ten year old. God you piss me off!!! This made me start to remember the incident I experienced and I realize by now that I really became very depressed by the whole thing. Not only I was reminded about this thing I almost had forgotten, but the attitude of the ex-premies and the memories stirred up so many things in me. So instead of this being a thing I almost had forgotten about, I was deeply disturbed by it. You detestable fucking creep, attempting to shift blame to people here. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SAID YOU HAD 'SEXUAL' FEELINGS FOR A FIVE YEAR OLD CHILD FOR GOD SAKE YOU SHOULD BE FUCKING DEPRESSED, YOU DEPRAVED MORON!!!

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 21:57:21 (GMT) From: Absolutely not curious Email: None To: gerry Subject: You are really something gerry Message:

You have lied time after time. Once you begged me not to contact my ameerican laywer for the untruthful accusation you came up with about me. As I posted about 50 times, I was 13 , not sexually mature, and very insecure because I was sexually abused. I never touched that girl and I never had any such feelings later in my life. That is the truth, and the truth is, you are really something.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:41:32 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Absolutely not curious Subject: Please, Bjorn, please don't sic your Message:

ameerican lawyer on me. I promise to get better. Please don't Bjorn, please I beg of you... Hey last time out you were fifteen when you had 'sexual feelings' for the five year old girl. Glad to hear your were only eighteen...

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 07:52:23 (GMT) From: Absolutely curious about Email: None To: gErRy Subject: how sick you can be Gerry Message:

You wrote 'Hey last time out you were fifteen when you had 'sexual feelings' for the five year old girl. Glad to hear your were only eighteen...' I have always written that I was 13 when I had a crush for that girl for 3 days. But may be you are a compulsive liar?

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:09:52 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Susan Subject: Thanks Susan. nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:19:25 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Not curious anymore Subject: YOU ARE A COWARD, Not really curious Message:

How dare you come onto this forum and puke on Anth you creepy little cult member? Anth is Anth, not a pseudonym. His e-mail address is openly given. He was a very well known premie with a high profile . It took courage for him to openly become an ex-premie.You call him a coward? Who the fuck are you? Come on, tell us something about yourself. You make me sick you fucking guru worshipping loser. Fuck off and don't come back

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 20:50:56 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Not curious anymore Subject: YOU ARE A COWARD, ANTH Message:

That's not my impression. Quite the contrary. Are you feeling angry at Anth? Why? No-one has to answer you - whoever you are!

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 18:18:24 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Not curious anymore Subject: ASK MAHARAJI Message:

Your questions about what Maharaji knew or did not know about Jagdeo are best put to him and those who are around him. Read Abi's and Susan's stories and posts and then you can decide if you want to believe them or not. They are UNDOUBTEDLY telling the truth about what was done to them by Jagdeo. If you don't want to believe it, your cult programming has served you well. Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:55:10 (GMT) From: Curious again Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Question to Marianne, Anth and Way Message:

Thanks for Ways link. I read some of the links and to my surprise, on that link, both Judy Osbourne and Katie used so be friends of mine. About Judy Way writes: ”She is just one of the people who personally informed Mr. Rawat about Jagdeo years ago.” Did she indeed? First of all I have some experience as I once was sexually abused as a kid. From what Abi and Susan write, I would say that what I experenced was more serious. Abi does not express herself very clearly. It might be understood that Jagdeo was cuddling with her, and that he had an erection. Her letter does not state that Jagdeo had sexual intercourse with her. Did he? As far as Susan it is a bit more complicated. She states that she has a crush on Randy at 13 and then that something happens with Jagdeo at the age of 15. What she soes not exactly describe. I do not find her statements very convincing and there is almost some contradictions in her letter. She writes: ”I do recall later that he did tell me he had told Rawat but I do not recall too much more than that.” She later writes when she is 17:”This premie was my first sexual relationship of any kind, fist kiss and all, and he soon had to get a divorce to marry me, I was pregnant. I was 17. I still have a lot of shame about this. ” She then goes on not very clearly about Judy. Judy was an extremely nice person. One thing about her though, is that she was never excact or definite in her statements. From my experiences with Judy, it is not very likely that she expressed herself the way Susan claims. The way I remember Judy, she had an gift to make people feel that things were OK and smooth things. And I do not find a statement that 'I have told it to Maharaji' If I am wrong with any of this, I am sorry, but are you regarding this issue without 'glasses'? Without programming? As far as Anth goes, I called him a coward because he did have the information, and did not have the guts to answer my questions. And having read the post of Amy and Susan I understand why. I had an other similar experience with one 'mahatma' in the ashram. He was close to strongly seduce an ashram sister who happened to be a very close friend of mine. I reported this to my regional supervisor at the time, but he did not believe me. So I wrote a letter to Maharaji about it and few months later the mahatma was sent back to India. I do not find it likely to believe that in one instance, Maharaji is when he is aware of that one Mahatma is trying to to have sex with a girl, sends this person back to India, but when he gets to know that a person sexually abuses children, he allows it to go on. Do you really believe so?

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 05:06:01 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Curious again Subject: you are a real creep Message:

and you don't really deserve a response. I am sorry you were sexually abused. I am sorry that it was worse than what happened to me, and if it was worse than what happened to Abi, than that is truly awful. I hope no one who was ever hurt worse than you tries to rationalize that what happened to you doesn't matter because what happened to them was worse. Also, your insult, whatever you are insinuating, regarding my confession about my first marraige and pregancy is ugly. Why did I post that? Because telling the story of Jagdeo was damn scary. I was very afraid that premies who knew me would badmouth me with that information. I felt that about the worst thing that 'they' could say about me was that. So I said it myself. I am sorry if you think it undermines my crediblilty. I hope you never have to deal with someone such as yourself using something painful in your life against you. It feels rotten. I did tell Randy in 1977. Soon after what happened to me with Jagdeo happened. I need to rewrite my journey, I had the details in it but I changed it to protect the privacy of an innocent person. I did tell Judy. She got back to me, she told me that 'maharaji already knew' and that he was glad it was not a new incident. This confirmed that he had been told the first time, as I had not told Judy that I had told ANYONE before. I was afraid that she would not tell Rawat if she knew that. I knew Jagdeo was still out there and I thought maybe, because at the time ( around 1982 ) there was a lot more media about pedophiles, Rawat might take it more seriously. She said what she did to me. It is certainly your right to deny it, but that is what happened. Apparently, they have both forgotten that I told them now, and they have forgotten telling Rawat. It is probably best to forget rather than deny it outright. I think it is likely that they told other people who might not be so comfortable lying about something like this. But no one can question your memory. I suppose it was just another day for them. Also, I totally agree that it is uncharacteristic of Rawat to have not done something about Jagdeo. Lots of Mahatmas were sent back to India over less serious things. I still to this day do not get it. I can offer no explanation for that. All I know is I am telling the truth. I don't know if you have ever tried to tell the truth about something like this and been disbelieved and treated this way, but I am a real person, this really happened, and I think you should not look at this as some sort of game.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 13:56:16 (GMT) From: CHR Email: None To: Susan Subject: Why M didn't send Jagdeo back to India. Message:

Susan, I had a bit to do with Jagdeo in the early 80s. I cringe when I think of the many mothers with young children who came to the ashram to do service for Jagdeo while we, the residents, were at work. I suspect that the reason jagdeo was not banished to India is that M seemed to hold him, along with Padarthanand and Gurucharnanand, in high esteem- perhaps because they were the Indian Mahatmas in the west who stuck with him through the family split and various other problems that occurred. M was certainly in regular contact with Jagdeo, both by phone and physically- much more than with the regular run of the mill instructors.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:59:11 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: CHR Subject: Why M didn't send Jagdeo back to India. Message:

Could be that jagdeo knows a lot that Rawat doesn't want to be exposed, and who knows how he's going to behave if he's fired!

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:18:30 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Good one JM. NT Message:

OM

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 14:13:21 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: CHR Subject: Contact w/ Jagdeo Message:

I'll say 'in contact' - Jagdeo told me how M would manifest to him (as in, the night before) and J would beg 'M, I just want to go to sleep!'

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 12:44:47 (GMT) From: CHR Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Contact w/ Jagdeo Message:

I know- He always used to tlk about M manifesting and appearing to him. Jagdeo spent most of his time watching TV, spending ashram money and playing tennis.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 06:32:20 (GMT) From: Just curious Email: None To: Susan Subject: I am a human being Message:

Sorry if I insulted you. There are a few things that are not clear to me. It sounds that both Randy and Judy at this time do not confirm that they told about it to Maharaji. From what you write, it sounds like you have asked them. Regarding Judy, I asked her a question once, she came straightforward with an answer, but till this day I am not quite sure I understood what she meant, I think Judy was very 'mid-wifish' Is there a possibility that there might have been a misunderstanding? It is not clear to me what Jagdeo did to you when you were 15. It is also not clear to me if Maharaji knew about Jagdeo, why would he according to Jethro, just recently form a investigation group to find out about it?

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 20:44:13 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Just curious Subject: And so is Maharaji Message:

This is not my discussion (nor should it be yours) but I'll answer your simplistic, possibly disingenuous question: It is also not clear to me if Maharaji knew about Jagdeo, why would he according to Jethro, just recently form a investigation group to find out about it? Are you really so dumb as to imagine a person with 'guilty knowledge' who wanted that fact to remain concealed wouldn't act as if he were innocent of the facts? You really are in a cult, aren't you? BTW: Your sneering 'apology' above adds insult to injury, expecially as it is no more than a blatant excuse to carry on firing the intrusive questions. You really are a nasty piece of work. Why don't you ask 'Maharaji' for a copy of his official report, seeing as he is the only source you evidently trust?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 09:05:10 (GMT) From: Just curious Email: None To: Nigel Subject: how you can explain Message:

What you say would be of substance, if the investigation committee was public. But according to Jethro, it was secret and internal? Could you explain to me why such e secret investigation group should be made if a person knew the facts about the case? May be there are some other kind of programming that has taken place?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 13:21:39 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Just curious Subject: yawn.... Message:

Could you explain to me why such e secret investigation group should be made if a person knew the facts about the case? (1) Because M only knew some of the facts and wanted to learn all of them..? (2) So high-placed EV reps can agree to one common story if outside investigators ask questions later..? (3) So they can assess the potential harm done to EV and work on a damage limitation strategy..? (4) So all those with potentially damaging information can be identified and sworn to secrecy..? (5) So M can appear to have 'dealt with the matter', even if he hasn't..? (6) To try and discover the mood among premies with knowledge of Jagdeo's repulsive activities. Might they be looking to go public..? It's called thinking, Bjorn. You should try it one day.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 14:19:49 (GMT) From: Just curious if Email: None To: Nigel Subject: this is not called programmed speculation? Message:

Imagine you are a headmaster at a school. There are 2 options; 1. you know about a person who has been abusing children. Would you start a secret investigation to find out about it? Probably not. 2. You do not know if rumours that a person has abused children are true or not. Would you start a secret investigation to find out about it? Probably you would. What might happen: (this is also called speculations) The person admits and are sent back to India. The person denies it, but resigns and travels back to India. There are other options; My point is that speculations do not need to be true.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 09:19:40 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Just curious Subject: To cover their arses legally if anything breaks, Message:

you really are in cult thinking mode if that possibility hadn't even occurred to you!!

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:37:38 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Just curious Subject: I am a human being Message:

I heard third hand they are denying 'remembering' also, that is in the Glen Whitaker letters. Judy said clearly she had told Rawat. She also said, I repeat, that he already knew and was glad it was not a new incident. This was something she volunteered. I did not know her well. I was hoping she would listen to me being a midwife I felt she would understand the seriousness of the issue. Can you see ' I told him and he already knew and was glad it was not a new incident' as having room for misunderstanding? As far as the Jethro thing. I can only speculate. One thing they have never done is tried to contact me or Abi. I don't think they really want to investigate this. Also, Abi knows of other victims as do I. Logic tells me there are many more that we do not know about. I think Rawat is pretending he never heard about this because he is afraid a victim will sue, and because it makes him look bad. My guess is he did confront Jagdeo after Randy told him the first time. But that he misguidedly felt that chastising him would stop him. Perhaps he did not know, like many people didn't in the seventies, how very hard it is to cure a pedophile. But I think continuing to let him travel as an initiator was pretty stupid on Rawats part. But I am sure most devout premies would find it impossible to beleive that Rawat could have known, and would rather beleive I am lying about it. After all, Maharaj Ji is so loving, he would never do that. And, that is what I thought too. I totally trusted him to take care of it. I was 15 when it happened. I have been through the ugly experience of tellig the long version of this before. Suffice it to say that all that happened to me was very inaapropriate fondling. I mostly just tried to get away from him. But, I was not alone and I did find out that other children ( 9-12 years old) had been more seriously molested, (this I also told to Randy) I do not think any had consisted of intercourse, but still appalling. One of the worst things about it is he would use Knowledge, Maharaj Ji, and all the tenets of what we believed in to convince kids to go along with him. He would sort of make them fel they were good premies to be with him, and bad premies if they did not go along with it. Curious, he was a real creep, and if you do have a heart as Rawat says you ought to listen to it, because this is the truth.

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 16:44:33 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Susan Subject: How could anyone think you were lying... Message:

Susan, I'm sorry people haven't believed you. Elaine

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Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 15:54:57 (GMT) From: There you fucking creep, Email: None To: CURIOUS THE CREEP Subject: Got your rocks off yet, Curious? Message:

You repulsive fucking, fucking PREMIE !!!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 04:54:03 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: bjorn Subject: Bjorn's lust for a blow-by-blow description of Jag Message:

Hey bjorn, try Henry Miller's Opus Pistorum. There's this scene where he fucks this twelve year old, you just might like. Real graphic, I'm sure it would do the trick for you, big boy.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 09:11:33 (GMT) From: Aha Email: None To: gErRy Subject: YOU are into such GARBAGE, Gerry Message:

You wrote: 'try Henry Miller's Opus Pistorum. There's this scene where he fucks this twelve year old, you just might like. Real graphic,' Assume you really enjoy reading such stuff.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 07:47:48 (GMT) From: Just Curious Email: None To: gErRy Subject: How sick you can be gErRy Message:

If you stopped lying it migth improve your life.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:05:58 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Curious again Subject: Identify yourself Message:

When you identify yourself, I will consider answering your questions. At this point, you sound like a representative of Elan Vital or Rawat who is playing games with us. Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 22:24:10 (GMT) From: Curious again Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Identity of me? Message:

I am a pretty normal human being, but why do are you all so evasive. My identity is not the issue. Last month I said I would quit smoking, one week ago I did.

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Date: Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 23:11:18 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Curious again Subject: More premie subversion-don't talk to Curious Message:

You're just another premie sent here to subvert the site. Are you one of the people who reports to M or his lawyers? My full, real name is out there. If you're so full of information, tell us who you are so we can decide for ourselves. On an information gathering mission today, are you? Marianne

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