Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 22:00:23 (GMT)
From: Jun 25, 2000 To: Jul 04, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


SB -:- From Inactive: A JEWEL FROM O -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 23:16:09 (GMT)
__ O -:- Another jewel you overlooked -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 23:34:54 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Another jewel you overlooked -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 03:15:10 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Another rule you overlooked -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:24:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ O -:- Another rule you overlooked -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 19:41:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Jim, you're talking to a guy who admires Keith! nt -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:21:46 (GMT)
__ __ Mirror -:- Turn that around sunshine.. -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:15:25 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- reflections on existentialist revelation -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 14:30:32 (GMT)
__ EXES never had the -:- the experience, says O -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 02:23:50 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- To O and other premies. -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 03:31:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ O -:- To Rob -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 23:56:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- and back to O. -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:19:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ hal -:- To Rob, -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 17:40:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- If only the *best of forum* was still around (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:05:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- If only the *best of forum* was still around (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:05:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Very good!! nt -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 12:09:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ JtF -:- Dime a dozen cults -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:31:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Good Post Rob (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:41:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- To O and other premies. -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 07:55:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- To O and other premies. -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:35:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- To Mili , O , and Dep Dawg -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 17:36:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- To Mili , O , and Dep Dawg -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:04:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Funny, Mili -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:10:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, remember what Mili did on HIS website? -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:48:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ O -:- Funny, Mili -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:34:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- False advertising? We even got links to M! -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 18:14:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Hey O, we got it all... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 01:33:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- O, O, you're not listening are you? -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 01:14:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ O -:- Rob that makes two of us. -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 21:12:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Knew you couldn't resist:) -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 22:50:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- FA - above post came in blank. Reposted below NT -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 22:56:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Knew you couldn't resist:) -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 22:53:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ O -:- More thoughts -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 02:20:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Fair enough -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 03:23:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ O -:- Resistance is futile -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 01:18:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Feel better now? -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 02:37:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ O -:- Now I do -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:19:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Fine, whatever... -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:48:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Fine, whatever... (sort of OT) -:- Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 21:44:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Insomniacs guide to the universe\ OT -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 04:21:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Insomniacs guide to the universe\ OT -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 18:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Rob , O's possible aliases........... -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:54:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- It hardly matters, Hal -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 17:06:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- whoever he/she may be ... -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 17:05:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- hey Cq -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 18:32:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- CONfucius say: -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 19:25:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- I agree, up to a point -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 17:20:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Yeah, but Rob - -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 18:35:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Not sure that's such a bad thing -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:37:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- I wish all exes would read cq's above 3 posts..NT -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:15:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- To Elaine, 411 -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:40:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- To Elaine, 411 -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:45:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Thanks -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:52:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Funny, Mili -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:08:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- That doesn't make any sense, Mili -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:18:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Let's call a spade a spade -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:21:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Let's call a premie a fool -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 22:11:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Let's call a premie a fool -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:24:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I said 'open exchange' dimbulb... -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:43:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- I said 'open exchange' dimbulb... -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 21:14:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Look who is talking -:- NO TEXT -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:05:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I said 'open exchange' dimbulb... -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 21:30:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- I said 'open exchange' dimbulb... -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 22:37:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- illusion? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:16:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Mili ment allucinations. NT -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:08:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- reflections on carrot pie -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 14:53:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- To O and other premies. -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 12:07:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- To O and other premies. -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 13:30:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Mili, finally you got it!!! -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:21:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Brainwashing -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:33:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Old premie-hippies -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 07:44:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Old premie-hippies -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:00:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Old premie-hippies -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 19:18:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Brainwashing -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:19:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Defences aside for one moment, Mili ... -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:50:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Defences aside for one moment, Mili ... -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:30:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Defences aside for one moment, Mili ... -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 21:40:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Defences aside for one moment, Mili ... -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 22:46:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Defences aside for one moment, Mili ... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:06:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Spin doctors make good money! -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:46:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Problem with that post, I'll redo it at top. nt -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:50:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Simple explanations? No thanks. Goodnight. (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:37:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Defenses aside for one moment, Mili ... -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:23:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Altars -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 14:46:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Altars -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 14:58:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Altars -:- Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 11:51:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry being nice. -:- Altars -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 15:34:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Altars -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 16:27:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Make yourself feel love right now ??? -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 18:10:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Thanks NT -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:08:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- It's no secret Elaine -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 16:58:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- It's no secret Elaine -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 18:08:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Happy to try again. -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 20:53:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Naw,since this is going inactive -forget it... NT -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:04:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Disgusting!! NT -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:49:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Altars - glad it's not lost in cyber-space! -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:49:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Your post isn't there, Katie! FA? (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:08:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hamzen says it will show up later... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:14:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Psychology student -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 05:28:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- the altar was 'charged' as a focus of love? (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:34:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- the altar was 'charged' as a focus of love? (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:42:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Brainwashing -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 13:39:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Would you -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 07:32:33 (GMT)

gErRy -:- Hey ''O'' you douchebag... -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:11:56 (GMT)
__ O -:- Hey ''O'' you douchebag... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:45:34 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Hey ''O'' you douchebag... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:23:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Powerman -:- newsgroup shenanagins -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:34:06 (GMT)
__ David Simpkiss -:- Hey ''O'' you douchebag... -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:55:29 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- What are we offering? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:50:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Ah but Hal ... -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:17:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- Ah but Hal ... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 14:57:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- his radiant premieness - driving in circles! -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:43:08 (GMT)
__ __ sb -:- What do we offer? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 12:41:55 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Who is 'douche' then? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 01:56:20 (GMT)
__ __ Coach -:- Faster Then A Speeding Bullet -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 23:07:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- I'm confused! -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 05:37:46 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Ask gwh! (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:56:56 (GMT)
__ Coach -:- Previous Lives -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:35:42 (GMT)

Coach -:- Not a lot -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:05:34 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Youmust be more observant -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 09:47:01 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- He doesn't have to, he's perfect -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:07:49 (GMT)
__ __ Coach -:- I don't know.... -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:41:19 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- i mean damp oh never mind -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:09:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Coach -:- Absolute Hell -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:36:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Absolute Hell -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 21:56:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Coach -:- Absolute Tokyo -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:22:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hahaha love it! -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:28:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ziggy Coach -:- But The Story Didn't End There -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:39:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I'd probably either die OR -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:18:12 (GMT)

SB -:- Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free? -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 19:01:16 (GMT)
__ op -:- Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 01:39:42 (GMT)
__ __ sam -:- Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 02:21:55 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Thanks OP (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 02:12:57 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free? -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:50:34 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free? -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 23:32:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free? -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 22:31:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sam -:- Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free? -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 02:56:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ op -:- Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free? -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 05:34:39 (GMT)

Mili -:- Awareness -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 16:59:01 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Let's go sin and get closer to God! A d M quotes -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:47:16 (GMT)
__ gwh -:- Awareness -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:28:52 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Awareness, a question for gwh -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:43:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- A rose by any other name is still M.Clegg NT -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:41:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- What does that mean, Elaine? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:55:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- re: book-Haven't looked hard enough,but will NT -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:44:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- don't bother, it's way over your head...(nt) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 21:42:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Now see what I mean -that was rude ---and why? NT -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:09:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ gwh -:- Awareness, a question for gwh -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:23:22 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Nice link,thanks NT -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 18:24:59 (GMT)
__ gErRy -:- Still 'seeking', eh Mili? -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 17:02:03 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Nah, he'd say he's found it, -doesn't need to seek -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:48:40 (GMT)

JohnT -:- True Reverence -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 14:57:51 (GMT)
__ Lotus eater -:- True Reverence -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:42:08 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- True Reverence -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 21:59:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- you would have never known how to navigate Florida -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:37:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- how to navigate Florida -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 16:09:15 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Reverence to JT! nt -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 18:16:26 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Most Excellent JohnT !!! (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 15:16:59 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- Yes I agree gerry !!...and to John T.... -:- Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 15:30:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Thank you for your kindness ... -:- Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 21:16:13 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 23:16:09 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: From Inactive: A JEWEL FROM O
Message:
Date: Thurs, Jun 22, 2000 at 17:53:33
From: O
Email: None
To: Hector
Subject: Excellent exchange H
Message:

Reading your post was like being a fly on the wall during a Jehova's Witness visit.Your inquisiter was removed from the protection of his support group and standing in the light of day his argument disintigrated.He/she really looked like they were in a cult of their own,parroting a party line which was a definitely a group derived 'think',not carrying the conviction of having understood something for themself.
For a person like this with an inclination to adopt the ideas of others it is basically the same whether they are becoming a premie,born-again Christian,Amway dealer or an ex-premie.They feel,'I can finally feel good about myself and all I have to do is buy into this party line.'Or 'There are others here who are willing to support me and all I have to do is agree with them.'
For the person prone to not thinking for themself they are ripe to join a cult no matter what they do.In the past these premies were always the ones most confused and a lot left,because there was nothing real to hold them.Maybe their premie support group wasn't what it used to be,maybe they couldn't stand parroting a party line they didn't really believe,maybe they just needed a change.
Whatever the case there wasn't anything real to keep them there.The falacy is they believe everyone's experience was like theirs but they have a hard time admitting they even have that propensity themself.Very funny.Exers selectively forget M always challenged them to have their own experience,always challenged a thing he called concepts.Nice to see people like yourself took his advice and are able to articulate with strength and conviction your experience,it's refreshing to see..
I do see value in the exers playing out their little hand though ,they are shaking the tree helping remove dead wood.Some of the dead wood has moved on while some have fallen into their normal pattern and bought the expremie mindset,this person being a case in point.
My prediction is they will move on again and again until they realize the root of their problem.That is when it will REALLY take guts,for they will have to walk a singular path alone.

BRAINWASHED O , SPEAK FOR YOUR SELF!! Don't make a fool of yourself talking stupidity! What you wrote is WRONG!!

May the strenght to look at yourself awakes you some day: It feels great, believe me!

SB

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 23:34:54 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Another jewel you overlooked
Message:
SB
In your rush to object you missed my point.I said if someone has a propensity to eat the ideas of others without testing them against their own reality they are ripe to enter a cult.I reminded you also that Maharaji has constantly tried to show us not do this,to not build your experience on 'concepts'.But anyway whether Elan Vital is a cult or not,expremies by their own admission have demonstrated this inclination to eat prefab concepts .
My other point was people with this propensity will tend to make a cult out of whatever they get involved.Are you saying because you 'saw the light' you are all of a sudden cured of this ailment?May be true for some but the leopard cannot change its spots so easily SB.Or are you just not admitting you may have had this propensity to begin with?If thats the case I ask you how you ended up in a cult in the first place.
Observer
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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 03:15:10 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Another jewel you overlooked
Message:
Your reasoning in not good. You premies think that throwing a couple of concepts gets them off the hook.

Maharaji PUTS CONCEPTS IN YOUR HEAD!! Do you care to list them? Or would you want me to do that for you? He created a new person alright: He fed premies 'his language' so well that all talk and think alike. You miss the most important points, always...and don't try now to twist your argument: You really believe that guru is innocent, correct?...BS!!!

I hope I see you someday coming here with a real open mind because right now you are too brainwashed to have an intelligent discussion of anything regarding The Lord Of the Universe.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:24:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Another rule you overlooked
Message:
O,

My favorite questions for you cowards:

1) Have you ever posted here before?

2) If so, under what name(s)?

3) And if so, why the change?

4) And if so, don't you think that pretending to be more than one person is inherently fraudulent?

5) Are you aware that one of the few forum rules prohibits multiple aliases?

6) Are you proud of what you say and write?

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 19:41:20 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Another rule you overlooked
Message:
Jim I've answerd your questions 1 - 5 before.Yes I'm proud of what I say and write.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:21:46 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Jim, you're talking to a guy who admires Keith! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:15:25 (GMT)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Turn that around sunshine..
Message:
Look in your own mirror and answer those very same questions..
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 14:30:32 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: reflections on existentialist revelation
Message:
SB (& O):

'Exers selectively forget M always challenged them to have their own experience,always challenged a thing he called concepts.'

Cult leaders always have a grab bag of phrases that sound good to their target audience. The issue is whether they consolidate those principles in their actions and behavior. This is simpler to dissect than O supposes, and doesn't really require some sort of radical existential departure from the human race. Pragmatism is still the most robust philosophy around.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 02:23:50 (GMT)
From: EXES never had the
Email: None
To: all
Subject: the experience, says O
Message:
Can it be?
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 03:31:42 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: O et al
Subject: To O and other premies.
Message:
Every premie that comes here has an angle of attack. Some clever way to slip the knife in and twist a little. I can say this because I've done it myself. Somehow or other you hear about this website, read a few background pages and lurk around the forum for a while.

At first you are angry and shocked. I mean here are people saying terrible things about your Lord, your Maharaji, in a public discussion! For the past 20+ years, perhaps, you have been immersed in a peer group where status is gained and maintained by the degree of effusion you exhibit around 'Him', by the quantity and quality of your darshan stories and where each time you gather at an 'event' you radiate and beam THAT love at one another.....

But here, my god! For the very first time you see someone describe Maharaji as 'a fat greasy hamster', a fraud, a charleton etc. Righteous indignation chokes you and you determine to defend and avenge your master.

So like most others before you, you lurk some more, suss out who the main players are, then launch in with some cleverly thought out riposte; hateful, acerbic, judgemental - but who cares, these are the enemies of God, right? Then of course you get flamed:), so you retreat a little and try a few more, from different angles.

Brute force won't work. Jim, Roger, gErRy, Joey, Powerman and a handful of other heavies (no offence guys!) are all over you. 'Way' and Nigel will politely tell you why you got trounced and Katie will stroke your head and tell you they're all nice people really once you get to know them. (Sir) Dave will invite you over to HIS forum instead.

Then perhaps you'll back off for a while, have a think and decide on an angle. This is where the faintest spark of premie originality appears sometimes, maybe even a glimpse of a real person underneath.

Unfortunately not in your case, O. You picked the old chestnut 'you guys never experienced anything', adding a touch of 'we're better off without you' (shaking the tree helping remove dead wood) just to twist the knife a little.

The sad, sad thing O, is that here there is an incredible opportunity (jeez, I sound like 'him'!) to step aside from half a lifetime of brainwashing and peer pressure and take a long, hard look at what is really going on. I say sad, because in all likelyhood you will huff and puff for a while longer, change your post name a few times, get angry, get confused, but never actually have the balls to challenge your own mental rut.

You have been brainwashed, as were we all, as are innocent people continuing to be, in an extremely subtle, convincing and desirable way. I would urge you, if you have the courage, to visit some of the many cult-awareness sites on the web. Read some of the definitions and note how uncomfortably familiar the signs are. Perhaps someone else reading this can suggest a few, I know there are links at http://onebehindthemany.tripod.com/

At the very least, engage some people here in meaningful dialogue. Forget the anger and resentment you feel for a moment. Ask questions, but more importantly, be prepared to answer them honestly, without guilt or fear (the main barriers). Nothing bad is going to happen to you! No lightening bolts, no 'bad karma', just a little uncomfortableness as it dawns on you that we are actually speaking truths here.

What have you got to lose? If everything you have believed in all this time is real, surely it will stand up to a little prodding?

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 23:56:11 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: To Rob
Message:
Yes and pretty much every expremie except Keith who comes here seems to adopt the same group think and eventually ends up parroting the same pat explanations for their premie experience and the same set of pejoratives to address their former teacher.If thats free thinking I'll pass.

Just a big Q Rob,when have I expressed anger resentment,been hateful acerbic etc?Are you projecting again,or is that how you were as a crusader for the cause?I don't deny,making judgements is a weakness I grant you that.But I'll make a deal,if any you guys beat that and can offer tips I'll sit at your feet.Damned disgusting habit!

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:19:50 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: O
Subject: and back to O.
Message:
O responded:
Yes and pretty much every expremie except Keith who comes here seems to adopt the same group think and eventually ends up parroting the same pat explanations for their premie experience and the same set of pejoratives to address their former teacher.If thats free thinking I'll pass.

Just a big Q Rob,when have I expressed anger resentment,been hateful acerbic etc?Are you projecting again,or is that how you were as a crusader for the cause?I don't deny,making judgements is a weakness I grant you that.But I'll make a deal,if any you guys beat that and can offer tips I'll sit at your feet.Damned disgusting habit!

Your response, as usual, has little to do with the post it appends. What I wrote there was an accurate portrayal of the initial reactions and activities of premies when they FIRST appear on this forum. It was based on both my own behavior and on my observations of others. That IS free thinking and you'll pass anyway, won't you?

Nowhere there did I offer any 'pat explanations' for my experiences as a practising premie, so where did that come from? Generally I don't use the vernacular to describe m., in this post it served as an example of what shocks premies when they first arrive. I try to restrain myself to either rawat or maharaji.

Again you bring the focus of the discussion away from rawat and his cult. No matter, I am quite adept at staying concentrated on the issues.

Having read some cult-awareness sites, as you claim, what is it for you that sets rawat, premies and the dlm/elan vital organisation apart from any other cult, given that differences do exist between all of them? There, now that's a decent enough question isn't it?


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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 17:40:47 (GMT)
From: hal
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: To Rob,
Message:
Just to let you know what a valid addition to the forum I think you have become. Your writing skills are superb and your clarity enviable. Keep up the excellent posts,
Best wishes ,
Hal
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:05:49 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Rob and hal
Subject: If only the *best of forum* was still around (nt)
Message:
If only the *best of forum* was still around (nt)
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:05:06 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: If only the *best of forum* was still around (nt)
Message:
Hey, that was such a good post from Rob! Can't the terrible trio see they are just out of their league here? Reckon everyone else can! You could almost feel sorry for them. Get lost guys, you're not exactly shaping up to it. Nothing personal - even the dreaded Jim gets challenged hereabouts.

Got yer own place to go, ain't ya?

Anyway, cq, quite a lot of *best* at
http://www.geocities.com/notmaharaji/Truth/truth.htm
I've noticed. Reckon a few reposts wouldn't hurt now and then. Cuts down on the typing, eh?

Respect.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 12:09:04 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Very good!! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:31:17 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Dime a dozen cults
Message:
Great link! It's almost as if there is a guru's marketing manual. The only variation appears to be what vulnerabilities are being targeted by the cult leader.

They all seem to get the victim into the classic 'are you good enough to join my cult?' situation.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:41:51 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Good Post Rob (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 07:55:29 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Rob
Subject: To O and other premies.
Message:
You're blind as a bat, Rob.

Can't you see that the real brainwashing is going on right here?

Approval and 'stroking' if you spout the local party-line, and verbal abuse and admonition if you defend Maharaji in any way.

It's the old carrot-and-stick, isn't it?

Sheesh.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:35:55 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: To O and other premies.
Message:
(Repost)
J'ACCUSE

Your crimes are great, because you have no heart.
They are against the Good; against Mankind;
and everyone you've lured by evil art -
the open-hearted hopeful you entwined.
To business then. Your crime against the Good
is chiefly that you stir the keening love
of hungry souls who have not understood
and bend it to your use, from God above.
So I say, be like a decent man, just try
to put aside your trickster mind. Climb down
from your undeserved, stolen throne. Cry
Freedom! to the conned. Take off fake Krishna crown.
You know, like all the world, you're just this guy
who's made it rich by riding family lie.

My second charge, of crimes against us all,
is this:- You've taken ancient 'heritance
and claimed it as your own to hold in thrall
the open-hearted hopeful; made them dance
to your most selfish tune. Foul falderol!
The knowledge that you claim as yours alone
to give, in fact was gifted to us all
in Yogic scriptures. Yet falsely you intone
those four techniques work only by your grace!
You lie, false God, I'll spell it out for you
- were you unborn they'd work in any case!
So, two, I say, disown those lies. Speak true.
No God nor Master. Just a wicked fraud
grown rich by claiming you're the only Lord.

My third charge is that you lied for gain, for gold.
Your houses, planes, dope untold, all obtained
from open-hearted hopefuls you have rolled.
You've left Maharaji's name forever stained.
For though you were a tender child when put
upon imposter's throne, you're now quite grown,
in wealth and power too. So, third, you foot
the bill of restitution - all you own.
Prem Pal Rawat, my challenges are clear.
By words and deeds you must make some reply;
the time of worldly reckoning draws near.
You know the truth. Your life has been a lie.
Your silence now admits my words are true
- called 'Liar' to the world, you dare not sue!

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 17:36:01 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: To Mili , O , and Dep Dawg
Message:
I would vote to have you guys banned from the forum as you have no intention of examining your beliefs honestly and rationally. You are only here as Mahaha apologists and justifyers of the cult.

Why should you be given your say on this forum? Can you imagine any premie forum allowing exes to give their perspectives? No way , right?

So , I for one will not dialogue any more with you three in particular, as you are just determined to prove how impervious to any reasoning or honesty you are.

Up yours,
Hal

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:04:55 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Hal
Subject: To Mili , O , and Dep Dawg
Message:
Right on, Hal. We don't want any differing opinions here, now do we? It's only jamming up the brainwashing, oops, deprogramming...

'Knowledge bad, Maharaji good'- 'dishonest'
'Knowledge good, Maharaji bad' - 'honest'.
'Knowledge good, Maharaji good' - 'dishonest'
'Knowledge bad, Maharaji bad' - 'honest'

Am I scoring points, or what?

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:10:37 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Funny, Mili
Message:
We don't want any differing opinions here, now do we

Mili, a simple question: are any differing opinions permitted on any of the pro-maharaji websites?

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:48:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hey, remember what Mili did on HIS website?
Message:
There once was a premie web site started by a guy named Harlan from Flroida. At one point, Mili joined him as co-host. These guys started a discussion board. Once, as should surprise no one, a couple of premies got into a dispute over who the hell Maharaji is. One guy's calling him the Lord, etc., the other's saying that's exactly the kind of talk that 'misleads' people inot thinking EV's a cult or something. It was fun watching them discuss this, believe me.

Anyway, ham-fisted, dullard that Mili is, Mili jumped on both of them and ordered them to not get into debates. Not on his forum, anyway. Remember Mili?

And yes, this was roughly around the same time that Mili wrote a fraudulent email to Usenet claiming all sorts of support he never had and asking them to cancel the newsgroup we were using them, alt.cult. maharaji or whatever we called it.

So jsut to get past Mili's gross hypocrisy is a little difficult, to say the least. Really, the guy's such an asshole I can't begin to tell you. Cult or not cult, he's just a classless idiot. Oh yeah, that IS taking into accoutn all his stupid new age peace and love shit. He's a fucking snake.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:34:18 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Funny, Mili
Message:
Something for your consideration gErRy.This site bill itself as 'Anything and Everything you want to know about Maharaji and his followers'.This implies to the visitor they are gonna come and see both sides.You guys make this claim but only want your Anything and Everything to be negative.
Premie sites don't make claims like that and don't claim to be a discussion forum.So I'm not sure besides trying to score points hi-lighting the 'democratic' nature of the forum what your question has to do with anything?I mean is it really 'Everything' or is that just false advertizing?
Cheers.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 18:14:15 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: O
Subject: False advertising? We even got links to M!
Message:
Like these links here.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 01:33:49 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Hey O, we got it all...
Message:
A whole lot more than any of the 'pro' sites. We have all the history, bunches of satsangs, pictures, lots of stuff unavailable on premie sites.

What question ws that now?

Could you point me to the premie discussion sites? There's a few questions I'd like to ask of your pals in bliss.

And what's your real name and where do you live. I like to know with whom I'm talking, don't you?

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 01:14:49 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: O
Subject: O, O, you're not listening are you?
Message:
Even now, all you are doing is dancing about pointing fingers at this website and the people in it.

Remember the last paragraph in my post at the head of this thread? Remember what I asked, about meaningful discussions, about checking out other cult awareness sites, about taking a step back from your reactiveness to ex-premies and looking at yourself objectively?

Well? Have you done any of that?

You see the more you carry on in this fashion, the easier it is for people to believe you are simply a brainwashed cult victim with little hope of ever freeing himself.

So if that's what you want, please carry on.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 21:12:15 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Rob that makes two of us.
Message:
Yes Rob I have checked out the cult awareness sites,and there's no surprises there.I've concluded that becoming a carbon copy of the paranoia supported on those sites is of no use to me.Besides I guess I don't feel the need for reprogramming.If you want to continue to be somebody's hand puppet go for it.
I raised the point with you of your transformation into the cardboard characture you've become which you don't seem to want to address.Instead you want me to have some kind of meaningful discussion with you.Let's be 100% clear Rob just so we're not under any illusions,you don't want meaningful discussion.That is clear from the responses I consistently get when I raise points that are both valid and eminantly discussable.The only person who hasn't abdicated their objectivity that I've come across so far is Keith,kudos to him.As for the rest it's pretty hard to have a meaningful discussion with a hand puppet,harder still with a rabidly defensive pack of 'em.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 22:50:16 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Knew you couldn't resist:)
Message:
Let's take a look shall we?

I have checked out the cult awareness sites,and there's no surprises there. I've concluded that becoming a carbon copy of the paranoia supported on those sites is of no use to me.

Hold on, hold on...which sites did you check out? How much did you read of them? Did you check these out:

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_links/linksindex.htm
http://www.kassiber.de/cults.htm
http://www.freedomofmind.com/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/cult/cultmain.htm
http://www.ex-cult.org/

So you think they are all paranoid? Really? Does that apply to ALL the cults being discussed, or just a few? Which ones do you count as being OK?

No-one's asking you to 'become a carbon copy' of anything. Quite the opposite in fact. The key is to try thinking for yourself.

Besides I guess I don't feel the need for reprogramming.

Of course you don't, you have been successfully brainwashed.

If you want to continue to be somebody's hand puppet go for it. I raised the point with you of your transformation into the cardboard characture you've become which you don't seem to want to address.

Well if you've been lurking and maybe posting here for long enough to recognize a change in me (have to be at least a year) then you should know how ridiculous that statement is.

Who's puppet am I supposed to be? A fair proportion of the ex-premies here still hate my guts! None of them are my 'friends', I don't exchange emails or talk on the telephone with any of them, so if you imagine I've joined some kind of 'club' here you are quite wrong.

I think for myself and my style of expression is definately my own. I didn't address it last time for the simple reason that it was, and still is, merely a distraction technique routinely employed by premies.

This whole forum is about prempal rawat and his cult. If you want to discuss 'me' go to Anything Goes forum at http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=forumlite
and flame to your heart's content.

Nor is it about 'you' really either, except that you have put yourself forward as an apologist & defender of the cult. I have made several posts here in the past few days in which I voiced my opinions, feel free to respond to them in their own threads.

.....you don't want meaningful discussion.That is clear from the responses I consistently get when I raise points that are both valid and eminantly discussable.

Really? Gee I must have missed them. What were they again?

The only person who hasn't abdicated their objectivity that I've come across so far is Keith, kudos to him.

Yes, you two would get along famously. I'm sure he thinks highly of you too.

As for the rest it's pretty hard to have a meaningful discussion with a hand puppet,harder still with a rabidly defensive pack of 'em.

You're really quite full of yourself, aren't you? All you have done, that I can see, is to focus your attention on the people posting and not on the issues they raise.

I think my analysis of the typical premie arrival here was quite accurate, and you are proving it every time you avoid the real questions we raise about prempal rawat and his cult, or 'business enterprise' as I'm beginning to view it now.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 22:56:06 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA - above post came in blank. Reposted below NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 22:53:56 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Knew you couldn't resist:)
Message:
Let's take a look shall we?

I have checked out the cult awareness sites,and there's no surprises there. I've concluded that becoming a carbon copy of the paranoia supported on those sites is of no use to me.

Hold on, hold on...which sites did you check out? How much did you read of them? Did you check these out:

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_links/linksindex.htm
http://www.kassiber.de/cults.htm
http://www.freedomofmind.com/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/cult/cultmain.htm
http://www.ex-cult.org/

So you think they are all paranoid? Really? Does that apply to ALL the cults being discussed, or just a few? Which ones do you count as being OK?

No-one's asking you to 'become a carbon copy' of anything. Quite the opposite in fact. The key is to try thinking for yourself.

Besides I guess I don't feel the need for reprogramming.

Of course you don't, you have been successfully brainwashed.

If you want to continue to be somebody's hand puppet go for it. I raised the point with you of your transformation into the cardboard characture you've become which you don't seem to want to address.

Well if you've been lurking and maybe posting here for long enough to recognize a change in me (have to be at least a year) then you should know how ridiculous that statement is.

Who's puppet am I supposed to be? A fair proportion of the ex-premies here still hate my guts! None of them are my 'friends', I don't exchange emails or talk on the telephone with any of them, so if you imagine I've joined some kind of 'club' here you are quite wrong.

I think for myself and my style of expression is definately my own. I didn't address it last time for the simple reason that it was, and still is, merely a distraction technique routinely employed by premies.

This whole forum is about prempal rawat and his cult. If you want to discuss 'me' go to Anything Goes forum at http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=forumlite
and flame to your heart's content.

Nor is it about 'you' really either, except that you have put yourself forward as an apologist & defender of the cult. I have made several posts here in the past few days in which I voiced my opinions, feel free to respond to them in their own threads.

.....you don't want meaningful discussion.That is clear from the responses I consistently get when I raise points that are both valid and eminantly discussable.

Really? Gee I must have missed them. What were they again?

The only person who hasn't abdicated their objectivity that I've come across so far is Keith, kudos to him.

Yes, you two would get along famously. I'm sure he thinks highly of you too.

As for the rest it's pretty hard to have a meaningful discussion with a hand puppet,harder still with a rabidly defensive pack of 'em.

You're really quite full of yourself, aren't you? All you have done, that I can see, is to focus your attention on the people posting and not on the issues they raise.

I think my analysis of the typical premie arrival here was quite accurate, and you are proving it every time you avoid the real questions we raise about prempal rawat and his cult, or 'business enterprise' as I'm beginning to view it now.

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 02:20:30 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: More thoughts
Message:
I re-read your post and have a question for you.You claim I am deflecting the attention away from the real issues.I disagree but thats beside the point.I mean if you can say I've been brainwashed I can certainly challenge the integrity of your claim.
Anyway we can do the he said/he said game ad nauseum so instead,why don't you tell me the real issues from your POV?And I wonder if you can voice them for me without resorting to expremie speak.
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 03:23:38 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Fair enough
Message:
Took you long enough:)

Obviously there are many issues discussed here, and it would be encouraging to see you put in your own 5 cents worth in other threads dealing with different topics, as opposed to just having a go at the posters themselves.

I always write here in my own 'voice', it's my base style, as opposed to a variety of styles I have to use at work. If it comes across as 'ex-premie-ish', well I can't help that, it's how I write when I'm trying to achieve clarity.

My main personal beef with mr. rawat is that 25 years ago he led me to believe he was an incarnation of God, at a time when I was fervently searching for such a being. Maybe it was my age, maybe it was the era, maybe it was all the spiritual books I had been reading, who knows. The point is I was wide open to it and fell right in.

These days there is barely a mention of that 'aspect' of him. Now he is a 'teacher', a 'master' etc. The old movies with him in his Krisna outfit, on stages of flowers, with lines of people parading past kissing his feet in reverance are nowhere to be seen. History is being reinvented before our eyes and it stinks, frankly.

A close second is the whole farce of the ashrams. Young single premies were openly pressured into moving into these institutions. It was an attempt at imposing Hindu cultural mores on impressionable western youth and it went diabolically wrong.
People, including myself, gave up their worldly possessions, bank accounts, career paths and more to move into overcrowded houses and subject themselves to an unnatural lifestyle of celebacy, poverty and obediance. We did it because we thought we were serving the Living Lord of this Era and were supporting some Divine Plan for the planet. When they became burdensome, financially unstable and no longer suited Mr. Rawat's purpose, we were summarily thrown out. Ill prepared and without the background job skills and financial background normally enjoyed by people in their mid-twenties, many of us went through severe dificulties for many years afterwards. The closest we ever have come to an explanation and an apology was a post here recently by Michael Dettmers.

Lastly, for the time being at least, is the question of 'who's techniques are they anyway?' A major part of the 'hook' was the belief that the four techniques of knowledge were unique, and obtainable solely through him, the Living Lord. This we know now is an outrageous lie! They are yoga techniques widely used in India for centuries, and you can research this yourself if you follow the links given by Jean-Michel in a reply to me north of here. Here was 'the Knowledge of all Knowledges', and if that weren't enough, we were repeatedly told that even they wouldn't work without his 'grace', in other words without total acquiescence and obediance. Plainly put, this was all bogus information. He could have bundled any set of meditation techniques together and achieved the same results. Now look at it...this 'Knowledge which cannot be obtained from books' is available on CD-ROM! Whatever happened to the Divine Touch as the initiator put his finger on your forehead? It's been replaced with a mouse-click!

Well O, this is quite long-winded, but you did ask and I have tried to express it all in my own way. There are many other issues - his wealth, alleged child abuse by his instructors, possibly bogus lineage claims etc etc, most of which can be found by researching this and other websites.

Rob

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 01:18:27 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Resistance is futile
Message:
Rob,its no wonder as you say some exers have no love for you.I mean really,you telling me to 'try thinking for myself',how arrogant.Shall we get into it?
There you were a premie apparently not thinking for yourself for years.Then you got on the web and started mixing it up with a grab bag of self styled icons of free thinking (first of all free thinkers are rare and to have them all congregate on one web site would be a real coup).Anyway you must have pitted argument for argument in the heated battles that ensued.Then somewhere along the way you had a transformation and low and behold you were miraculously able to think for yourself.I can almost hear the cries,'I'm cured!I can think!I can think!'You then swung all the way over to the other side and started parroting the gobbly goop the other side was selling about having been brainwashed and victimized by this ultra slick cult leader.
Really Rob,in your simplistic little way do you think it's that easy?Here you spent your lifetime until then admitedly not thinking for yourself,and all you have to do is have a sudden satori and from thence forward thou shalt think for yourself?From thence forward thou shalt be a free thinker?Your naivety is classic.You belittle the creative minds of people who really do have intellectual integrity.
You are a thinker wanna be Rob,that's the best I can come up with for you.You pretend to have a backbone but in order to go out on a limb and satisfy your definition of free thinking you require a safety net support group to make sure you don't hurt yourself.One day its premies,next day its expremies.The fact you can be so influenced by this group to believe you were so influenced by that other group shows me you don't know if your coming or going.
On a positive note,knowledge of self is an experience that cannot be grasped by your thoughts.That means you lucked out Rob,you don't need to be a paragon of mental supremecy to know the most important thing in life.
Stay cool.
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 02:37:19 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Feel better now?
Message:
Now you've got all that off your chest, are you ready to start joining in the real discussions here?

Are you ready to let us in on the secret of who you were posting as before this, or do I need to prod you a little more? You as much as said that you were around last year when I was still a practicing premie and witnessed the unravelling of years in the cult. This would explain the barely controlled anger behind this post.

You see O, or whatever the fuck your name is, that kind of cynical distortion of a chain of events doesn't phase me in the least. I write shit like that all the time, and get paid for it!
What did you think, I would go off into the corner and cry my eyes out? You'll have to try a lot harder than that my friend to rattle me.

I don't even know if I can be bothered deconstructing it, to be honest. So far you've made no attempt to address anything but what you see as being my flaws, you've attempted to condense an entire year of my life into one nasty, dismissive paragraph and STILL you avoid answering any issues about rawat, his cult and the poor saps who follow him.

OK I've let you vent your spleen. Is there any more where that came from? If so, let's have it and get it out of the way. Remeber O, I've been through this myself, I know exactly where you are at right now. If you were a content, devoted follower of maharaji, you would not be here now, period. You do have doubts of your own, doubts which you hardly dare admit to yourself, let alone anyone else.

Go ahead and prove me wrong if you like...explain why you are taking part in this forum. Don't think for a minute that you are helping your Lord, because you are not. He most definately doesn't want you taking part in this, and I think you know that. So what is it? What is the attraction for you?

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:19:19 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Now I do
Message:
Rob, your patronizing tone and your high opinion of yourself makes a serious discussion with you improbable.Before that happened you would need to get off your 'I know where you are brother because I've been there myself' pedestal.You don't have a clue about where I'm coming from or what motivates me,and it only highlights your arrogance to think you do.
I don't remember reading any of your previous posts but I remember others talking about you recently.You seem to continue to have a need see yourself being superior but now you base it on your newfound expremie wisdom where before it was your deep premie wisdom.My prediction is your new depth will prove as shallow as your old.
As for you 'letting me vent' one of my body parts Rob, you didn't 'let' me do anything,again more of your distinctive arrogance.Contrary to me venting I highlighted the glaring holes in your self proclaimed clarity.But you just brush off as me getting personal,which by the way is a classic way to deflect taking responsibility for your actions.
So lets look at something you need to take responsibilty for,shall we?You say you were brainwashed.Let me ask you what kind of a person would allow themself to stay brainwashed for 20+ years?My answer to that is someone with no insight into themself who is dishonest and someone who is in no way the thinker you claim yourself to be.
And yes,anti-cult websites are riddled with paranoid propeganda and lump ALL groups that exterally fit a subset of criteria in the same light.You bought into that big time but it is in keeping with someone who can be easily brainwashed.
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:48:37 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Fine, whatever...
Message:
You're wasting my time, go fuck yourself.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 21:44:29 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Fine, whatever... (sort of OT)
Message:
Hi Rob,

Wondered if you've made it to David Ulansey's links?

Or here putaipan?

(from Evolution/Involution of Consciousness)

And some words of wisdom from putaipan:

remember: two half truths still no make right-side up and,

paradox is sure sign of truth

standing on its head . to get your attention

nice saint,my ass!

Hope you're getting nice weather!

Stonor

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 04:21:05 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Insomniacs guide to the universe\ OT
Message:
Hey stonor

well I've added them to my 'ten million links for sleepless nights' bookmark folder.

there are actually some very funny sites there when you drill down from link site to link site.

I liked the Church of the SubGenius!

It's raining buckets

Rob

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 18:33:53 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Insomniacs guide to the universe\ OT
Message:
Hey rob,

Better than mindless conversation any night of the week, sleepless or not, but . . .

Yes, some very funny, and sometimes interesting in terms of parts of the puzzle.

I liked the Church of the SubGenius!

Gotta check that out!

It's raining buckets

Know the feeling.

Stonor

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:54:40 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Rob , O's possible aliases...........
Message:
Mirror I'm fairly sure of then maybe !!#%&?* (I'm not so sure on that one)

Am I right or wrong Observer AKA O??

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 17:06:00 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: It hardly matters, Hal
Message:
A clone is a clone is a clone...

Bit like the Borg in Star Trek. 7 of 9, or maybe 256 of 9,000, whatever.

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 17:05:45 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: whoever he/she may be ...
Message:
whoever he/she may be ...

I think that O's post (called 'resistance is futile') is quite remarkable in that his/her 'style' of certainty and arrogance reminds me of some of the more entrenched exes that post here.

There's room for all kinds of expression on this forum, but it strikes me that the less aggressive/arrogant the attitude, the more chance it has of engaging real dialogue - and of addressing the real issues - than does any amount of ranting.

Perhaps it would be for the best if premies who honestly air their doubts here (and occasionally they do - albeit under a panoply of allegiance to the Maha) can be met with a variety of attitudes, rather than merely the defensive/aggressive 'you're an asshole for believing what you do'-type spiel, which, though being undoubtedly therapeutic for some, does tend to give this site an uncalled-for reputation for extremism.


(Oh, alright then, flame on regardless!)

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 18:32:30 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: hey Cq
Message:
Chris,
Are you having a go at me ? I've just started getting the hang of flaming at premies and being all aggressive. I was feeling quite proud of myself too. Aww shucks, youve made me feel bad.
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 19:25:24 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: CONfucius say:
Message:
CONfucius say:

cq no make you feel bad. Bad feeling only hiding.

You like flaming? Then flame on, glasshopper.

Such enjoyment not only preserve of long-term ex. They gave mind long time ago. But conscience follow too?.

Time to get mind back.

But then -

True to you is good too. Flame with whole heart. Whole mind.

Follow your soul. Not our soul.

Ah! so ...

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 17:20:17 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I agree, up to a point
Message:
cq

Sometimes you got to let them vent, as I was doing with O, before they'll start opening up, and to do that you got to prod a little too. (I learned that from Jim)

Hopefully I got past that with O, which is why I responded to his/her request for a 'POV' without the digs, at the top of the page. Be interesting to see how he/she responds, if at all.

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 18:35:53 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Yeah, but Rob -
Message:
the gist of what I'm getting at is this:

Let's say an ex posts a request for an honest response from a premie.

Premie then posts with a pro-Maha spiel that may or may not evade the important points.

IF that premie is then met with a barrage of aggression (however heartfelt - and I'm not proposing censorship - merely a wider variety of responses) - the tendency will be for said premie to go away with their prejudices confirmed (exes are all a bunch of hardened hatemongers, or some such).

I guess I'm trying to encourage more of the attitude that allows for the inevitable pro-Maha stance of premies, yet can still engage on the important points without alienating them entirely. Why? Fuck knows. I've yet to look into that.

(ot)You still driving that bus as well as speech-writing? (forgive my confusion if that was Cerberus' employ).

regards

Chris

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:37:12 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Not sure that's such a bad thing
Message:
If they go away thinking whatever about ex's, maybe that's not so bad, particularly the ones who have no intention of debating the key issues.

Don't get me wrong, I think what you have said is valid, and for the most part I do try to keep things on an even keel. I absorbed a fair chunk of hate from O in his last post, not all of it verbalized, but you know you can feel it underneath. I have posted 2 non-agressive statements of my experience and opinion up top, and it is a real opportunity for premies to give their views without bickering, but I won't promise not to take them to task, that's the nature of debate.

As for the OT, (sigh) no I don't drive a bus and I never posted as cerberus. I should start doing what they do in parliament: 'I refer my honorable friend to the answer I gave some moments ago'. The brits will understand that!

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:15:46 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I wish all exes would read cq's above 3 posts..NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:40:30 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: To Elaine, 411
Message:
I haven't followed your posts so far, sorry, so I don't know what your viewpoint is. Are you a premie or ex? Did you think I was being uunreasonable with O, or are you just agreeing with cq in principle?
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:45:42 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: To Elaine, 411
Message:
Sorry, didn't have time to read your post - sounds like you may have been intense??

Yeah, just agreeing with cq's posts in general.

I'm the crappy premie.

Elaine

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:52:34 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Thanks
Message:
You seem nicer than the average one who ventures in here.

Watch you don't get corrupted now:)

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:08:40 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: gerry
Subject: Funny, Mili
Message:
Of course not, Gerry. That's why they're called 'pro-Maharaji' websites, I guess. So if this is an 'anti-Maharaji' website, the logical thing to do would be not to allow anything else besides the usual defamatory stuff.

So, why hasn't this been done already? Because, then you wouldn't be able to keep up the illusion that this was an open forum where anyone could freely speak their mind about their experiences with Maharaji, that's why.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:18:32 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: That doesn't make any sense, Mili
Message:
Just because a sight is pro M, does that mean there can be no discussion? Is he infallible like the pope?

Why do you consider the open exchange here to be an illusion of free speech? You haven't been censored and very few people have, always amidst much discussion and hand-wringing and very little concensus to do so.

Do all premies believe the same things? Do you think premies would benefit from the open discussion that the internet allows?

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:21:00 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: gerry
Subject: Let's call a spade a spade
Message:
Oh, come now Gerry. This place is a far cry from 'free speech' and you know it. Premies are not welcome here, period. The only way you can post anything favorable about Maharaji here is to de-senzitize yourself to the inevitable verbal abuse and intimidation.

Wouldn't it be more honest not to allow any 'opposing views' at all? It would certainly make Jim and Hal more happy, that's for sure.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 22:11:44 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Let's call a premie a fool
Message:
Mili,
It is called the ex-premie forum. Anything about Maharaji, the former lord of the universe, by former followers. It's not a site for brainwashed gopi cult members to give out their pathetic 'satang' bullshit.

If you search for 'Maharaji' there are about 90 pro sites , spouting the most inane garbage. IMO we need a place to put our views and this is it. I came here as a premie but I was open to discuss honestly and openly, and to LISTEN fairly to the ex perspective. I think that if anyone can look objectively at what Maha has really given then it's not what was promised.

You are probably a nice guy and likewise O and Dep Dawg and it's not a personal dislike. What i object to is your intransigence. I think that O especially just uses the forum to defend Maha. He is a perfect example of intransigence.

All I can do personally is not engage the three of you anymore in discussion so CIAO baby,

Hal

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:24:24 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Hal
Subject: Let's call a premie a fool
Message:
Well, we never did have much of a conversation anyway, Hal. So, I guess it's not too big of a loss.
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:43:32 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: I said 'open exchange' dimbulb...
Message:
Just try and ask a question or disagree over at ELK or m's rigid one way website. Seems you get plent of 'air time' here Mili so what's your beef? You really expect to go unchallenged on a forum which exists to discuss and excrete our cult experiences? You really have no clue, do you Mili?
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 21:14:36 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: gerry
Subject: I said 'open exchange' dimbulb...
Message:
An open exchange of what with you, Gerry? Bodily fluids?

I've noticed one thing in common with all of you 'ex' people - you all tend to have a very, very short fuse.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:05:54 (GMT)
From: Look who is talking
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: NO TEXT
Message:
CERO
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 21:30:54 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: I said 'open exchange' dimbulb...
Message:
One thing I noticed about ALL you premies, you ALL tend to make grand sweeping generalizations and avoid answering simple and direct questions.
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 22:37:02 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: gerry
Subject: I said 'open exchange' dimbulb...
Message:
Why ask me questions? You've got it all figured out already, haven't you? Nothing I could tell you could make you change your mind about anything, right? Or do you want to know about my personal life - I doubt it that you do. I am just an ordinary guy, pretty much like you. Nothing special really.

The thing is, we disagree on the way we see Maharaji and the Knowledge. You make it sound like it was something terrible. I am afraid that as hard as I try, I just can't relate to that. If you really had such a bad time with it all, I am sincerely sorry. Really I am. Maybe this thing was just not cut out for you (or vice versa). Maybe you got into it by mistake. Good for you that you're out of it now, whatever that may mean. I just don't see how talking about it day after day and year after year will help you in 'leaving it all behind', but then again it's your trip, and what do I know. OK?

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:16:39 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: illusion?
Message:
But anyone CAN 'freely speak their mind about their experiences with Maharaji'.
Or am I mistaken?
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:08:51 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Mili ment allucinations. NT
Message:
LSD
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 14:53:20 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: reflections on carrot pie
Message:
Mili:

I don't feel even slightly intimidated to adopt a party line here. About the only defense I can come up with is that he just doesn't know any better, which of course he does. The bottom line for me is that I don't see that Maharaji's existence, or non-existence, makes the slightest difference one way or the other to the overall human experience. I don't buy the idea that he's all that destructive (any more than any other 'optional autocrat'), and I certainly don't buy the idea that he provides any unique benefit that can't be had without him. Given the rather significant potential that submission to such a system can be decidedly disadvantageous to an individual I would advise against it. Little gain, and a non-zero risk potential... you figure it out.

(BTW, I've never been able to find any carrots here. Does Katie have a garden? And I'd never do anything for the sake of a carrot anyway. Huckleberries, maybe...)

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 12:07:23 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: To O and other premies.
Message:
Mili,

I think you are not reasoning well. What goes on here, psychologically speaking, is deprogramming, not brainwashing.
The day that you premies begin to care about others, sincerely, you will begin to understand what we are doing and why we became exes, but until then, your faulty reasoning will lead you over and over to the same false conclussions.

SB, who doesn't need to shine anymore.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 13:30:39 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: SB
Subject: To O and other premies.
Message:
Yeah, sure SB. I get it.

'Maharaji is bad'. Bolster it with lies, wild rumors and home-brewed speculation.

'Maharaji is good'. Your reasoning is faulty because, well, because MAHARAJI IS BAD, that's why !!!

So, do I get a passing grade now, or what?

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:21:49 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili, finally you got it!!!
Message:
I'm so happy for you! Welcome to freedom!

you sister in humanity,

SB

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:33:56 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Brainwashing
Message:
Mili,

You can't really compare what goes on here with the brainwashing that goes on and went on in the cult.

When I was first ensnared, I was encouraged to sit for two hours every night, week after week, month after month, year after year, hearing the same things being said over and over again, 'Knowledge is an experience of 'inner truth' or 'god within', Maharaji, the Master who can reveal it is the physical embodiment of it, known as 'The Perfect Master', 'Lord' etc.

That's what brainwashing is Mili, telling someone something over and over and over again until they believe it. It's not the crazy chatting, argument and abusing that we all love so well on the forum.

The heavy nightly brainwashing sessions that took place in the 70s (known as satsang) and fizzled out in the 80s, were very succesful. Lots of those old hippies are still around, still believing, 'not a leaf moves without Maharaji's will, God is great but Maharaji is greater' etc. (Do you believe this stuff Mili?)

By the way, how come all those Moonies think the Rev Moon is God walking around on earth? Do you think they may have been brainwashed too?

Anth the brain spun dry but the colours ran

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 07:44:09 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Old premie-hippies
Message:
'Lots of those old hippies are still around, still believing, 'not a leaf moves without Maharaji's will, God is great but Maharaji is greater' etc. (Do you believe this stuff Mili?)'

Funny you should mention this, but I was at Stonehenge at the recemt Solistict(20/21 June) having a jolly old neezupmotherbraan, when I saw this premie guy I know with along white beard who came up to me and said 'Isn't it incredible, GMJ is doing all this and nobody knows it'.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:00:00 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Old premie-hippies
Message:
Jethro,

Oh my God, even I would have looked at him like he was nuts.

Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 19:18:04 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Old premie-hippies
Message:
'Oh my God, even I would have looked at him like he was nuts.'

Actually I gave him a big hug and bought him a cup of tea and a cheese roll as he looked cold and hyngry. I then brought him together with the Hare Krishna girl who had told me that Krishna actually provided the bliss, and a couple of other members of other cults. I left them staring with each other while I went to have a cuddle with Barbara in my lovely old Volvo.

Twas an enjoyable night/day.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 11:19:03 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: AJW
Subject: Brainwashing
Message:
You're just feeding your own paranoia by saying that, Anth. Well, if you want to make that your staple diet, be my guest. What do I care.

To me it weren't the words in satsang that mattered. There was a feeling to it, and it was 'ahhh...'. It was such a relief. Have you forgotten that? Or maybe you never really let yourself flow in that river of Truth at all. Clinging to the branches of your fear and prejudice, or something like that.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:50:19 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Defences aside for one moment, Mili ...
Message:
Mili, the satsang vibe could get wonderful, I for one won't deny that.

But I felt just as warm and pervasive a feeling listening to Rajneesh's morning discourses in Poona for a couple of years.

It's a phenomenon that happens whenever you get a bunch of people who feel united in their devotion to someone. Don't forget - it was OUR love and devotion that put Maharaji on that pedestal. And it's part of learning to be true to ourselves to question why we put him there. Sure it felt good, - but ask yourself - WHY?

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:30:03 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: cq
Subject: Defences aside for one moment, Mili ...
Message:
Look, there's no way you can explain away why people have been attracted to Maharaji and enjoyed (still enjoy!) the festivals and events on the basis of some sort of group mind, or wishful thinking. Premies are such a heterogenous lot that it must've sent all those sociologists' minds reeling. And it's not an emotional thing either.

Simple explanations really are the best - there is something to the Knowledge and Maharaji knows how to make it manifest. Period.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 21:40:55 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Defences aside for one moment, Mili ...
Message:
You're wrong Mili. There is something to mind control and brainwashing and goober simply stumbled into a way to exploit that. That is the simple explanation. He's not alone in this simple but devious enterprise. He's just another cheap charlatan in a world of con men and frauds. You've been suckered, you simpleton.
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 22:46:12 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: gerry
Subject: Defences aside for one moment, Mili ...
Message:
Boy, you sure are into conspiracy theories, aren't you?

Simple truth is - Knowledge feels good, Maharaji talks about the Knowledge most of the time, and then everybody goes home and has some fun with it. I can't see why that should bug you or anyone else all that much, really I don't.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:06:36 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Defences aside for one moment, Mili ...
Message:
What bugs me about it is that I got snared in it. Maybe I'm weak minded, and that's why. But the truth is that people, for whom Knowlege does absolutely nothing, get suckered into chasing this carrot M holds out and waste a substantial portion of their lives chasing it. That's what bugs me. If you love this shit, fine. Why does it bug YOU that some people don't? And remember, Mili, this is an ex-premie forum. Why do you keep showing your ass around here? What are you hoping to find, or understand? Haven't you already found what you're looking for at the feet of the master?
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:46:25 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Spin doctors make good money!
Message:
Well I certainly hope you're on the payroll, because you must be spinning yourself dizzy here.

What you are engaging in are classic spin doctoring techniques. How do I know this? Because a lot of the time I am paid to do exactly that in my profession. Part of what I do is write speeches for corporate executives, so it is often my job to paint a glowing, friendly picture of the state of that particular company for the benefit of shareholders and staff. Everything I write (for them) has to be factual and true, however, there are many ways to dress the Christmas tree!

Sometimes it's as simple as 'emphasise the positive and gloss over (or leave out) the negative'. If a particular CEO had a bad reputation, or had done some questionable things in his life, I simply reinvent him.

On a purely professional level, I have to admire the way in which Rawat has been reinvented in post-DLM years. The changes have been subtly introduced and the game plan extended over something like a decade. Gone are the Krishna costumes and Arti candles, massive floral stage sets and darshan lines. Replacing them we have tailored suits, minimalist stage design and expansive product merchandising. Boy, I would have *loved* that contract!

What I love about you, Mili, is that you epitomise the premie mindset which made the transition possible. During the whole metamorphosis, Rawat had to keep a tight rein on the premies in order to avoid a mass exodus. Intensive repetition of key phrases such as 'focus on this Knowledge, external things will change and are not what matters, stay on the boat, etc etc' were designed to blinker the older generation of premies, calm their insecurities and keep them on board.

Newer recruits were made to feel priveleged to be part of 'modern maharaji' by receiving the techniques from him personally. At the same time, older values and hindu attributes were being slowly removed and those who 'held onto them' were subtly ridiculed, often in public Q & A sessions. Interesting to note that now he is pretty much over the transition phase, there appears to be no real reason for him to personally attend knowledge sessions (or events, actually) and so we see these giving way to CD-ROM initiations and satellite feeds.

For me, Mili, and for quite a few others here, the issue isn't whether or not 'knowledge feels good'. I've tried a bunch of meditation techniques, and to a greater or lesser degree they all produce some kind of 'feeling', the four which Rawat has claimed as his own are no different. The degree of experience one derives from any practice of meditation depends on many mental and biological factors, which I won't go into right here.

The whole point, which you and your premie pals are missing, is that Rawat has taken these bog-standard meditation techniques and created a cult around them, has brainwashed and continues to brainwash thousands of people into believing that 'his' techniques are different from anyone elses, and that in order to benefit from them, one needs to acquiesce fully to his teachings and demands. This is and always has been the root principle and major lie of his cult. The only things that have changed is the presentation, and like I have said, it was a skillful exercise in corporate re-imaging.

I hope this helps you to see why this 'bugs us', as you said at the end of your post.

Rob

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:50:30 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Problem with that post, I'll redo it at top. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:37:33 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Simple explanations? No thanks. Goodnight. (nt)
Message:
Simple explanations? No thanks. Goodnight. (nt)
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:23:03 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Defenses aside for one moment, Mili ...
Message:
cq,
Your post reminded me of something I'd forgotten...before I was a premie and I was just hearing alittle sat sang - I moved into a house with a family that had been listening longer than I had,(empty room ,good price, they needed the money) --they had put up an altar imitating the altar on Brickell Ave.

I remember looking at this altar and looking at a picture of Guru Maharaj Ji as I was walking through the living room...and to my amazement I felt LOVE. Real love from/in my heart chakra --warmth flowing in my heart.

Now, being so young and from a very dysfunctional family --- or maybe it's all astrology? ---LOVE was not exactly the easiest feeling for me to actually feel.

I am sure that that was something that 'got' me. It was so profound for me.

What do you think? That was before probably three sat sangs.I'd love any explanations or opinions from anyone.( The wisecracks are not for this question please, show off your wits some other time.Thank you.)

Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 14:46:39 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Altars
Message:
Hi Elaine -
I would guess that your feeling of love arose for two reasons:

One, because the picture was on an altar - a place of respect. I was not raised as a religious person - my mom took us to church, but my dad was agnostic. I do react in that way to altars (maybe BECAUSE I wasn't raised in a strict religion - ha!) - like they are a sacred place and that the person on them is somehow holy. For example, in Mexican restaurants, there is often a shrine to the Virgin of Guadalupe - I feel the same way. When I was a child, we lived in Japan, and my dad and I used to go look at some of the Shinto shrines around our house - same feeling.

The feeling of love - second. I understand what you mean when you say that this was not something that you walked around feeling all the time, or were familiar with (my family was pretty dysfunctional too, as were many others. Probably more than not). I would say, though, that that was something that you and I WANTED to feel, and that we were capable of feeling. I also think that we (well, at least ME) were looking for a dad/mom/friend who would love us in that way, and at that time Maharaji seemed to fit the bill.

The first time I went to satsang I was very drawn in by the premies. They were so kind and nice - they really were good people, by the way (mostly). Some of them has spent time around Maharaji, and they had a lot of loving feelings about him. They also seemed to truly care about other people. After satsang, we sang arti, and I LOVED it. The ashram at that time was in a not-so-good part of DC, and they turned off the lights and we all sang to this picture on the altar. Meanwhile, outside, the pink crime prevention lights were on, the police helicopters were flying overhead, sirens were blaring in the distance, and cars were going by - the living room of the ashram seemed like an oasis of peace. Needless to say, I was hooked.

I can remember the same feeling of 'love' coming from pictures of Mata Ji. I can't recall when you received knowledge, so maybe you weren't around then, but Mata Ji definitely pulled that feeling out of a lot of people. So what does that mean? Was it HER, or her proximity to Maharaji, or the reflected devotion of a lot of premies.

I don't deny that Maharaji has charisma - especially, and maybe only - when he is around premies. Several people have described running into him when premies were not around and not noticing or recognizing him at first. I believe Bob Mishler talks about this in his interview - I think Mark Appleman mentioned it several times as well (I am not sure if it is in his Journey's entry). Bob Mishler also said that Maharaji had much more of a clear purpose and sincerity when he first came to the U.S., which of course would have made him far more attractive. (Have you read that interview? It is worth reading - Bob was a good man. Brian knew him personally, and he says the same, although many people seemed to dislike him.)

I do not really know what to tell you. I know there are premies who are truly IN LOVE with Maharaji - some of them have posted here. And there are ex-premies who felt the same way at one time. You don't seem to feel the same way as they do - I think some of these people will remain premies for the rest of their lives. But I would suggest, based on my own experience, that you felt love because you needed to feel love and because it hadn't all been beaten out of you, because Maharaji was an appropriate (at the time) and NON-threatening focus, and because other people around you felt love - or at least SOMETHING (else they wouldn't have set up the altar) for Maharaji.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 14:58:22 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Altars
Message:
As usual,thanks Katie,

I agree with everything you wrote. But...it didn't explain exactly what happened to me...picture hearing about M for about 3 sat sangs worth - I feel a nice feeling BTW around any altar,too - but this was different.

It was a spontaneous - 'had nothing to do with me' type of experience - where I didn't ask,try,even sit - I kind of remember walking past this altar and just looked at it - and my Heart Chakra opened and gushed 'Love'. I don't even think it was directed towards his picture.

I mean - I can look at a child or an old person or a flower and my heart chakra doesn't do that.
It was truly amazing. I didn't summon it forth or beg to be opened.

You know, it can't be explained - I shouldn't have asked - it just popped into my head. Maybe I was unconsciously thinking that someone else had had that happen - and had a take on it.

I mean YOU did have a take on it - but, it wasn't exactly what I think happened.

I can go into a cathedral ( I was Catholic) and the 'splendor and artistry' of the statues and all don't even make my heart chakra open.

Oh, and now I'm remembering other times immediately after a program - yes - not only did my heart chakra like bleed love, but I could actually SEE the waves come out of me and go to this little boy -(the mother commented even -'You really love children don't you?') (We knew each other and we were all about 15 feet apart - and her son asked me a ques.)
That only lasted a day. But,it was right after probably having darshan. That might be able to be explained as just leaving a focused group of thousands. I'm still wondering,tho.

Did I ever tell you about a psychotic friend that didn't like M - but,reluctantly still said he had more 'grace and power' than any other guru.
I'll never forget that.

So who is M ?
I truly don't believe he's just out for the money - like I've said -he's not stupid and he could be making LOTS more. He's not doing a very good job at money-making. But,easily could.

Is he a run of the mill guru - still with some powers, just not the LOU? It goes beyond charisma -I think.

Anyway, thanks,
Elaine

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Date: Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 11:51:16 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Altars
Message:
Hi Elaine -
I honestly believe that you had that experience - I wasn't trying to cast doubt on that. You would be surprised at how many people here have had similar kinds of experiences around M - and often this has kept people following M far beyond the point where they wanted to. Usually people don't talk about it much on the forum, but I do believe that those experiences happen.

The contradiction that I see is that many many people have those experiences around OTHER gurus, leaders, or just plain people. You can read any book about sprirituality and find people who have had experiences like the one you describe. I do think there are certain individuals who are better at 'pulling out' those experiences than others, and I think M used to be one of them. Not sure if he still is - kinda doubt it.

I never had a spritual experience around M - in fact, I've had very few. Three of them were with dead or dying people - I have heard that this happens a lot, and that it's probably the most common 'otherworldly' experience that many people have. Despite people's efforts to rationalize the experience to me, I know what I experienced, and I know it wasn't a brain burp, or whatever.

I also had a major spiritual experience at a Grateful Dead concert (this was after I was a premie, and I was completely straight - never could use drugs again after I had quit when I was a premie). This caused me to absolutely revere Jerry Garcia for a long time - basically, HE became the 'perfect master' to me. I wasn't a DeadHead and didn't even go to many concerts - but I did believe it. Finally got deprogrammed from this as a result of this forum. (BTW, this is kind of embarassing to admit, even though a lot of people believe and still believe the same thing!).

Anyway, I didn't want to discount your experience, just to suggest that it can and has happened to other people WITH other people than Maharaji.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 15:34:57 (GMT)
From: gerry being nice.
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Altars
Message:
It was a spontaneous - 'had nothing to do with me' type of experience - where I didn't ask,try,even sit - I kind of remember walking past this altar and just looked at it - and my Heart Chakra opened and gushed 'Love'. I don't even think it was directed towards his picture.

So, it had 'nothing to do with you.' How strange this statement is, of course it had EVERYTHING to do with you. The feeling was in YOU, not external to you.

I mean - I can look at a child or an old person or a flower and my heart chakra doesn't do that.

Now that's really kinda sad, Elaine. Because that's where it's at. Not slobbering over some guru who doesn't even know you exist.

my heart chakra like bleed love...That only lasted a day. But,it was right after probably having darshan.

I suggest you examine this phenomena very carefully. You were pumped up by the group experience (you can get that a church, too, btw) and then it vanished the next day. Why is that, do you suppose? Wouldn't it be nice to be able to access that on demand?

Did I ever tell you about a psychotic friend that didn't like M - but,reluctantly still said he had more 'grace and power' than any other guru.
I'll never forget that.

I think the key word here is 'psychotic.' Obviously, if this person is psychotic, his judgement would be severely impaired, by definition. The reason you never forgot this is because it corresponded with your belief system.

So who is M ?

I can't believe you are still wrestling with this. He's just a guy who fell into the family business. Right place at the right time. Do you think his dentist considers him 'divine?'

I truly don't believe he's just out for the money - like I've said -he's not stupid and he could be making LOTS more. He's not doing a very good job at money-making. But,easily could.

He's actually a rather ignorant and uneducated man. Where's the evidence he could be making money elsewhere? Not counting his being a 'successful investor' (where did he get the seed money to invest, btw, if he came to this country with, as he says, twenty dollars in his pocket and never held any job?)what else could he do???

Is he a run of the mill guru - still with some powers, just not the LOU? It goes beyond charisma -I think.

What powers? WHAT POWERS? Just exactly what are you talking about? Where is the evidence other than something purely subjective you feel? The feelings are YOURS. They don't originate with the guru.

God it's getting difficult to educate you Elaine. You have so much baggage and are so thick with beliefs.

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 16:27:55 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry being nice.
Subject: Altars
Message:
Well, I know the feeling is /was inside me -I know this, of course ----the old 'dog with bleeding gums w/ bone story'---

And also, I know it is sad to look at a child and not have my heart chakra 'bleed' love. I just get a good feeling. 'Bleeding Love,gushing out' I just don't feel that all the time - I actually read - Venus in Gemini - has a hard time actually feeling love. That's ME. I feel lots of sweetness, smiling warmth ----not -'my heart chakra 'bleeding/gushing like Niagra Falls bursting damn' Love. Yes, I don't need you to tell me that's sad,Jesus.

'It had nothing to do with me '----I meant I didn't try or ask for it, if you'd read more carefully -that wasn't sarcastic -it could read that way, to you.

No, the psychotic's sentence stuck with me so much bec he majorly did not want to say it. If he had said he saw M as a true charlatan and clearly saw his game plan that would have stuck with me, as well -- knowing this guy's history - have you ever looked into the eyes of a truly 'over the edge' person?
It's quite the experience -- I have on several occasions - once a guy had a French knife in his hands on LSD,while 'over the edge'. Whew!

'I can't believe you're still wrestling with this' - -screw you.

Evidence - he could be making money elsewhere? You need evidence?
There's no evidence to be had. As a 'leader' of a group in the USA - he simply is not a good moneymaker --- I could think of plenty of ways he could market his 'stuff'. Pls. don't ask - use your own imagination.

So can you access on demand love gushing from your heart?? Yes, that would be nice. What's the secret - what do YOU do?

That actually was what a bro in the ashram said to me once -that when people say you don't need a guru - he would simply look at them and say ' Make yourself feel love right now?' It's just a story - I'm not saying he was right - just pertinant to what we're talking about - and not the first time I've heard about this.

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 18:10:23 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Make yourself feel love right now ???
Message:
'Make yourself feel love right now ???

Faced with a question like that?

And the answer you IMPLIED was 'oh, that means i need mAHARAJI'???

Sweet Jesus Effing Forest CRYst on a crutch-free bicycle ... Elaine

And, (sorry to bring this up, but I think it's also important) you say he's NOT a good money-maker???

WHAT? with a Malibu mansion, private jet,et al.?

He's a VERY good money maker (for himself and his offspring - less so for the poor buggers that founded his wealth).

But, all this aside, let's get back to that bloody altar that somehow sold you on him.

Am I wrong in thinking this was a major turning-point that turned you toward M? You trusted a feeling that was engendered by looking at somebody's photograph?

And what might be the reasons for your emotional response?

To be fair, Elaine, there might be a myriad of reasons for your response, depending on time, place, set, setting, preconditions, apprehensions etc. I'm not denying the subjective reality of what you felt, Elaine, - I too have been in a similar situation - but who really knows whether it was just that his picture looked attractive to you, or whether he's enlisted the magic of the likes of TAP (ref. Fred Gettings 'Dictionary of Demons') to induce love in others to produce this effect? ... or what.

The point is - it was SUBJECTIVE.

Of course the Maha's spiel was always biased toward feeling, rather than thinking, so it's only to be expected that those of us who were already sold on the touchy-feely/anti-intellectual slant would prefer his version of what's appropriate when judging our experiences.

My unsolicited advice? Use both. Both mind AND heart.

(they're both part of you)

See how unscrupulous a manipulator I am!

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:08:43 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Thanks NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 16:58:08 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: It's no secret Elaine
Message:
- I actually read - Venus in Gemini - has a hard time actually feeling love. That's ME.

This is a good example of baggage--beliefs--holding you back. Where on earth did you get this silly idea and why do you persist in holding on to it?

- have you ever looked into the eyes of a truly 'over the edge' person?

Yes, great bliss stimulators, btw. Street people, too. Another really occult magical technique is looking people in the eye, smiling and saying 'how are you, today.' But don't spread this around until I copyright them and get my videos ready...

As a 'leader' of a group in the USA - he simply is not a good moneymaker ---

Did you forget this emoticon? ;-) come on Elaine, a little honesty here. Of course he could do a better job 'marketing his stuff.' But he is great at generating money for his own personal use: Jet, heliocopter, huge yatch, luxury cars, every electronic toy he desires, mansions all over the world.

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 18:08:23 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: It's no secret Elaine
Message:
Well, you really didn't ans any questions I was interested in - just comments on things I said - and off the mark may I add -

I already know it's not easy for my heart chakra to gush love ---reading about my Venus in Gemini - after the fact is an incidental - doesn't mean I believe it or that it's baggage or that it is the reason -- just something I read.

All that astrological stuff even if true is just tendencies we 'could 'have - not anything written in stone anyway.

I don't know, even when you're being 'nice' - which I appreciate - we don't communicate well.

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 20:53:07 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Happy to try again.
Message:
Well, you really didn't ans any questions I was interested in

Please ask them again.

I have to warn you though, the reason you are experiencing difficulties is because of your resistance to life and things as they really are, and the chains of your spiritual beliefs and striving.

I don't know how to make it any clearer. Give it up !!! I mean all of the associated 'practises' and beliefs. You will be amazed at the lightness this brings and who knows, your heart may even begin to 'gush.'

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:04:45 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Naw,since this is going inactive -forget it... NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:49:19 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Disgusting!! NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:49:34 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Altars - glad it's not lost in cyber-space!
Message:
I've had so many friends who've had 'gurus' and I remember looking at their pictures, and a video of Guru Ma, trying to see why they 'worshipped' them. They all look so kind and benevolent!

Stonor

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:08:47 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Your post isn't there, Katie! FA? (nt)
Message:
Your post isn't there, Katie! (nt)
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:14:43 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Hamzen says it will show up later...
Message:
It has happened to him, too. Not the FA's fault, or anything they can do anything about. My guess is that the problem is with the server routing - I HOPE, because it was a long post which I didn't save.

BTW, Stonor, re IE5 and Netscape. I use both of them. IE has a VERY annoying habit of retrieving a cached version of the forum - so you need to check the date/time at the top of the forum before posting. I am sure there are technical things you can do to prevent this, but I just usually reload the browser. I don't get as many 'illegal actions' on IE though - Windows hates my using the back button on Netscape. So it's a toss-up.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 05:28:36 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Psychology student
Message:
You allow yourself to feel love because Mahariachi sat the stage for you. First he told us he was God, The Lord of The Universe, remember? So then, we programmed ourselves to go higher and higher because Knowledge is endless, remember? And then, you began to feel so especial... The Lord knocked on your door!!!What an opportunity to feel loved and to love someone who deserves your love. The Lord!!! More, coming from a disfunctional family, like many of us. You don't want to know about mine...yuck. Why we feel 'those feelings'?

Have you being in love with someone? I imagine you did or do...hmm... How do you get blissed out? Chemicals in your brain generated BY THOUGHT, not magical powers create them!!

BTW, He took us very high, I got, but the price was quite expensive, and I am not talking about $. He took my life with his satsang for more than two decades! I hate him...What was I saying? Oh, the bliss feeling, yes, is all about chemicals exchanges in your brain. Biology and how many more sciences were put down by Maharaji...but what does he knows? He should by now, if he was a RESPONSIBLE HUMAN BEING, but he is not one. He is too far in the river of greed and power to be honest with himself and with his followers. How many suicides there would be if he TALKS? Can you think of it? I know three premies in my community who I would put them at risk. Deluded people. One to do bussiness MUST meditate before a meeting. Talking about insecurity. I know for a fact that that is why he does it. He 'shared' with me that he feels extremely uncomfortable, 'in his mind' if he doesn't meditate. What a Drag: Is that freedom?!! I thought like that few times...to now know that is a stupid handicup to function with it in any society... Insecurities got created in our heads that did not exist before. Did you ever thought about that?

Oh love, it feels so good. BTW: I'm in love with someone. I feel what I feel for this person BECAUSE I want to feel it. I feed the feeling. I believe that I love him and so for...It's so easy to understand if you want to...really.

Hoping the best for you,

SB

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:34:46 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: the altar was 'charged' as a focus of love? (nt)
Message:
the altar was 'charged' as a focus of love? (nt)

Must go, got another bus to catch.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:42:11 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: the altar was 'charged' as a focus of love? (nt)
Message:
Thought there was NT.
cq,
So, are you just kidding? I mean, do you,cq, think that an object of some kind could be charged with 'love'. I can't remember our other talks so clearly to know you're belief system.
Sorry.

That altar had probably been up for a very short time -no one knew how to meditate. There wasn't even a tape of M in the house - maybe once a week - but less -we were able to drive the distance to ss.

I'm open to ideas. It is a confusing question. Not for a devote premie to answer - so you don't have to,please.

I have to run,too.

Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 13:39:17 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Brainwashing
Message:
Or maybe you never really let yourself flow in that river of Truth at all. Clinging to the branches of your fear and prejudice, or something like that.

I just felt like I was on the outside looking in. Let yourself flow. Yeah, I remember that. 'You must surrender'. I would tell people that I think there's something, here, but I don't know what it is, and all they would say is 'you must surrender'. Now, that's all fine and good, if you're feeling something and fighting it, but if you're not, telling somebody to surrender is just plumb dumb advice.... dummy.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 07:32:33 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Would you
Message:
Rotate this post in more often. It is very good.
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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:11:56 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey ''O'' you douchebag...
Message:
(Nothing personal to David Simpkiss, of course)

You had you finger up Hector's ass in a thread which went over the rainbow and you were talking about me, as I was the one who originally e-mailed Hector with the bad news about goober and you were nattering on and on saying the usual vaccuous premie bullshit and I took the time to answer you but alas it all fell over the cliff before I could post it so I took the liberty of bringing this to the top and I hope you don't mind:

It was me, gerry, who wrote to Hector originally, O, and most of your hallucinations about me are incorrect. I left the cult decades ahead of most people here. I have walked 'my own path' most my life.

I believe things that many, if not most here, reject. I believe in 'awakening;' just that being a gooberite will never get you there, as there is no 'there' there. Get it? No you don't and you never will, but that's fine.

Also, I *know* aliens exist and buy in to a lot of the so-called 'conspiracy' theories. So much for your 'observations,' dickhead.

I like this part of your post, though:

In the past these premies were always the ones most confused and a lot left, because there was nothing real to hold them.

That's for fucking sure, Shylock.

dismayed,

gErRy

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:45:34 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Hey ''O'' you douchebag...
Message:
Well Gerry thanks for stepping forward and introducing yourself.Whatever your history and belifs are,the point that came thru in the exchange with Hector was how dumb your arguments were in light of someone whose conviction was built upon experience.You really did look like a JW pounding on Hector's door.But then you didn't have the pack to back you up,you should never venture forth on the hunt alone my good man.Even JWs go in pairs.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:23:41 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Hey ''O'' you douchebag...
Message:
Ouch, O ouch, you big brave anonymous premie. Not a JW, oh my. The very fact that I did what I did on my own, without the so-called pack shreds your ridiculous argument.

But what can I expect from some asshole who spends half his life under a blankey waiting for the gooroo to provide the next hit of bliss.

You have a gooroo, a master, hahahahahahahaha. Dickhead.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:34:06 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: newsgroup shenanagins
Message:
Hey Ger,
Check out the alt.cult.maharaji newsgroup, the one Mili tried to shut down a few years ago. Anyway, some dolt from the land down under, named Eisa, posted some satsang. So I zapped him with some libelous landfog. Take that, Fat Hamster.
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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:55:29 (GMT)
From: David Simpkiss
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Hey ''O'' you douchebag...
Message:
Just to clear up any confusion; I am not 'Douch'. That is another David. I am of course, a premie and have been since 1972 and I think this message board is a scandal. I am glad that I still have Maharaji and knowledge. I mean, what are you people offering?
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:50:49 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: What are we offering?
Message:
A wake up call David , that's all. A realisation that Maha doesn't offer what he claims to; that joy , that love , that peace , you know?

A realisation that it's just a very tiny cult, offering no more (or less maybe ) than any other yogic, meditational cult. A dying cult full of middle aged self deluders, with no hope of propogating further.

Hope you wake up soon,

Hal

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:17:18 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Ah but Hal ...
Message:

Ah but Hal ...

there really isn't much point in telling a premie he/she doesn't experience 'that joy , that love, that peace' when they know for a fact that they do.

What they haven't yet realised is that those same feelings - and with as much intensity, in fact with more - can be triggered WITHOUT the need for a guru. In fact, doesn't the Maha talk of finding 'the source' of that love all the time?

For me, his downfall is in the way he tags himself into the equation. It's the dependence he creates that marks him as hindrance to true 'enlightenment'.

The real Masters know that, if the seeker is truly to grow, it can only be by leaving behind the crutch of the guru-disciple relationship. The false teachers seek only to foster more dependence (and for a variety of reasons, none of which have anything to do with wanting the best for their 'flock').


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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 14:57:02 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Ah but Hal ...
Message:
Yes you're right old chap. They do think they've got it and who am I to doubt that. They say they've got it , fine.

It's interesting to me that of all the 16 premies in my little region of the world , there is now only one who is still involved in the cult. He also happens to be the least loving and contented person of the bunch.He complains about this world and how terrible other folks are almost without fail. He gets inspired in a video event, drives 40 miles home and by that time it's all gone.

I thought I had it too, no-one else seemed to recognise my incredible love and clarity though. Why couldn't they see my radiant premieness? I wonder???????

Regards ,
Hal

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:43:08 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: his radiant premieness - driving in circles!
Message:
I can just imagine that last premie in your neck of the woods spending the rest of his life driving between the video event and home - full-time!

Did you ever see that movie 'Sex, lies & videotape'? (at last I think it was that movie) - there's a WEIRD sequence where a guy inserts a video cassette into his stomach ...

Talk about 'within, inside'. I've heard of tapeworm, but what a way to go!

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 12:41:55 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: What do we offer?
Message:
D E P R O G R A M M I N G!!
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 01:56:20 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Who is 'douche' then?
Message:
Is this Dave who has posted here recently? Hi Dave, don't believe we've met. Glad you found your way here and hey, you'll get over goober soon enough. Take your time, it hurts at first.
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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 23:07:40 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Faster Then A Speeding Bullet
Message:
David,

Jesus, it only took you 44 minutes and 27 seconds to answer gerry's post. Glad to see you keep in touch with this scandelous message board. you naughty premie, you.

Your Bro,

Coach

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 05:37:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: I'm confused!
Message:
Who is who? I thought David Simkiss was an ex.
is this another Dave?
You know I am always defending someone's right to remain anonymous but it does get annoying as hell. (absolute hell no - but still annoying)
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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:56:56 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: David Simpkiss
Subject: Ask gwh! (nt)
Message:
Ask gwh! (nt)
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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:35:42 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Previous Lives
Message:
gErRy,

I went to this medium once who told me I'd been an X in my last lifetime. Cool or what. An' to think I got reincarnated as one as well. Talk about fucking good karma. Comin' back again and again just to piss premies off.

Coach

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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:05:34 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Not a lot
Message:
Greets Sports Fans,

One thing that I've never got the ol' brain cells round is this. Given that the knowlege is the proverbial dog's bollocks in the salvation stakes, how come Maharaji couldn't be arsed to practise himself?

Well, that's it. Just a damp Sunday afternoon in the hills,

Hope yer all OK

Coach

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 09:47:01 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Youmust be more observant
Message:
'..how come Maharaji couldn't be arsed to practise himself?'

Quote from GMJ in the film 'Satguru has come'(Montrose I think),
'I'm in the infinite state'.

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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:07:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: He doesn't have to, he's perfect
Message:
I hate you! No I don't but dump in the hills sounded so fucking nice.
It's the usual here about 105 and so dry your nose bleeds like a meth addict. grrrrrr..........
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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:41:19 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I don't know....
Message:
....what sort of neighbourhood you were brought up in but round here to 'dump in the hills' is considered serious fightin' talk or a rather unfortunate typo.

'Damp in the hills,' if you please,

Coach

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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:09:15 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: arrggghhhh
Subject: i mean damp oh never mind
Message:
Can't get outta that one. :) :) )
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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:36:30 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Absolute Hell
Message:
Hi S,

Yes, it's absolute hell here too. Huge, billowing clouds over lush green hills, the evenin' sun...etc, etc. Nymphs and shepards playfully gambling, black jack, in the long grass. Absolute hell, dear girl.

Coach

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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 21:56:56 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Absolute Hell
Message:
Live where I live. Traffic right outside my window. Concrete. One tree, and that one across the street. No shade. Bar right across the street. Stoned and drunk patrons hanging out, making a racket till 4 in the morning. Kareoke night Thursdays, and that ain't much worse than the bands that play Saturday night. But, hey, you can't beat the rent.
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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:22:56 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Absolute Tokyo
Message:
J,

Glad to hear about the rent.

You wouldn't be the notorius 'Tokyo' Jerry by any chance would you.

The one I knew was sent to Okinawa to set up a DLM outpost in the early days but ended up running a rather classy brothel in downtown Tokyo after being led astray by a hooker called the 'Cherry Blossom Nutcrusher.'. Outrageous fortune et al.

A long shot.

Coach

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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:28:15 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: hahaha love it!
Message:
And years later, she changed her name to...

oh funny.

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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:39:08 (GMT)
From: Ziggy Coach
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: But The Story Didn't End There
Message:
S,

But Bowie's on at Glastonbury so it'll jez have to wait.

Ziggy Coach

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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:18:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I'd probably either die OR
Message:
fit right in!!!! I was just now talking with a friend about the movie 'Choose Me'.
Sounds like they filmed it in your hood.
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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 19:01:16 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free?
Message:
June 11
June 15
June 18
June 22
June 25
June 29

Many, many programs, so premies maintain themselves beautifully deluted, and giving the greens...

Does anybody knows if it's true about re-broadcasts being free? It will amaze me if they are...

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 01:39:42 (GMT)
From: op
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free?
Message:
An individual is charged $15 for the original broadcast. If more than one person watches the broadcast, the suggested contribution is $15 for each person. No one invades homes to find out how many people are actually watching, nor chastizes the subscribers if they don't send in exactly $15 per person.

At halls, etc., there is a collection box. A head count is taken for statistical purposes only; no one collects the money, keeping out those who don't contribute the $15.

The re-broadcast is free for those who receive the original broadcast. That means, no charge. No suggested contribution. Gratis. $0.00.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 02:21:55 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: op
Subject: Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free?
Message:
I went to a double feature last year - cost $90 for boyh or 45 for one- since getting slowly cheaper
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 02:12:57 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: op
Subject: Thanks OP (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:50:34 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free?
Message:
Does anybody knows if it's true about re-broadcasts being free? It will amaze me if they are...

No need to be amazed, SB. According to the Visions Online site, the broadcasts available to satellite subscribers only, cost $15 (US) each to order.

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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 23:32:56 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free?
Message:
Hi J,

I'm asking because my son heard that from his premie father today. That's is what I knew, $15 each...hmmm...

Thanks,

SB

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 22:31:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free?
Message:
Community viewings are not available for many of the broadcasts.

For the community viewings, now it looks like they want premies to register. My guess is that it might be possible to get in for free but they will make it uncomfortable and difficult, no easy sneaking in without paying.

One of the pay-per-view broadcasts is on sale for $8.00, the rest are $15.00. They want additional viewers to pay the same. I suppose a premie could watch for free at a friend's home if their friend let them.

Elan Vital claims on their home page that 'Admission to events is free of charge.'

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 02:56:45 (GMT)
From: Sam
Email: -
To: SB
Subject: Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free?
Message:
I think its now 20 for first in a session and 15 after that
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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 05:34:39 (GMT)
From: op
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: Is it true that the satellire-broadcasts are free?
Message:
Don't think something. It is not $20 for the first and $15 after that - it is actually $15, period.

You can check it out for yourself at the Visions International website.

Those who order the original broadcast receive the re-broadcast free of charge. Trust me on this one.

A lot of discussion has taken place about charges at halls. Originally, in some cities people were asked to register, and their payment was noted next to their name. Many people were uncomfortable with this, specifically because the donation is voluntary. So that was dropped, in favor of what I described above.

I know that when you start seeing the negatives, it's easy to see only negatives. But maybe a few people here could try avoiding the mud-colored glasses and see things the way they really are.

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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 16:59:01 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Awareness
Message:
Hi everyone!

Just back from a very nice vacation on the Adriatic - it was my first dip this year.

I was reading a book called Awareness by Anthony de Mello. I'd recommend it as cool reading to anyone, premies and ex-premies included.

I apologize if I am disturbing anyone by popping up here again, by the way.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:47:16 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Anyone but
Subject: Let's go sin and get closer to God! A d M quotes
Message:
Anthony deMello

from One-Minute Wisdom:

One of the disconcerting - and delightful - teachings of the Master was: 'God is closer to sinners than to saints.' This is how he explained it: 'God in heaven holds each person by a string. When you sin, you cut the string. Then God ties it up again, making a knot - and thereby bringing you a little closer to him. Again and again your sins cut the string - and with each further knot God keeps drawing you closer and closer.'


What is going on here?

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:28:52 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Awareness
Message:
Awakening into awareness.... that's it.

de Mello's work is very good... I have a few of his books. His 'gnosis' work helps fill a void in Christian teachings.

thanks

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:43:04 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Awareness, a question for gwh
Message:
Do you think we are 'still the same person' after awakening as we were before? Are there 'personality changes' in your opinion?

And what do you think of this quote from Satyam Nadeen? 'If you have a choice between a million dollars and awakening, take the money, because after awakening, there's noone home to enjoy the money.' (Close paraphrase but that's the main idea.)

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:41:13 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: A rose by any other name is still M.Clegg NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:55:02 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: What does that mean, Elaine?
Message:
I know he is Michael Clegg of COLL fame and former premie. Have you read his book? What did you think about it?
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:44:00 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: re: book-Haven't looked hard enough,but will NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 21:42:01 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: don't bother, it's way over your head...(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:09:57 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Now see what I mean -that was rude ---and why? NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:23:22 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: awake102@hotmail.com
To: gerry
Subject: Awareness, a question for gwh
Message:
Awakening is a grounding into awareness. Only fear (core wound) based personality traits are modified or filled in .The ego or personality is seen as arisings of the source (clear mind) and are not miss identified as the source.

There was a feeling of 'So this is what I struggled over lifetimes for?' Enjoyment of the world doesn't end. But you never again mistake anything in the world as the source of 'Joy'.

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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 18:24:59 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Nice link,thanks NT
Message:
nn
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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 17:02:03 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Still 'seeking', eh Mili?
Message:
give it up dude.
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:48:40 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Nah, he'd say he's found it, -doesn't need to seek
Message:
Nah, he'd say he's found it, - doesn't need to seek anymore.

You've found the meaning of life then, Gerry, or just given up on looking for one?

(Yeah, I know: life doesn't need another meaning when you're really living it - but don't tell the Maha I said that, he'll probably claim infringement of copyright)

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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 14:57:51 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Premie Ji
Subject: True Reverence
Message:
Wake up good friends or say goodbye,
For certainty is out the door!
K taught us once we should not try
to search behind the veil for more
than knowing this; that all the world,
and going on beyond, before,
all life, all time, the answer's sure.
It's K. So what? And why?

To banish from the pious mind
the need to reason with blind fate?
Or spare us to undo the bind
of ghostly chains of dogma's prate?
To salve the chaos of the world?
'The poor man at the rich man's gate,
 the children learning how to hate;
 all lacking K, you'll find'.

Believe in K and there's no need
to think of cause and consequence.
'The answers given by the creed
 of K are all that make some sense
 of all the nonsense in our world.
 No need to think - have confidence.
 Or do you lack the reverence
 to truth of K concede?'

Enough! We're children of the gale
as much as of the boundless peace;
K's not supposed to be your jail.
So face the challenge of caprice,
the flux and chaos of the world.
Let's love our knowledge to increase.
Together find our souls' release
for K's... a fairy tale.

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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 20:42:08 (GMT)
From: Lotus eater
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: True Reverence
Message:
I enjoyed the poem very much. The feeling I got reminded me of what I loved about being in the company of premies. One of the nicest things about this forum is it helps me recognise what a great bunch of people we were, and this has not changed just because K & M are not what we thought. LE
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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 21:59:01 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Lotus eater
Subject: True Reverence
Message:
Recently I connected with an ex-premie with whom I spent time in the ashram circa 1974. He sent me a pictorial collection which he titled 'Trip down DLM memory lane'.

I looked at the pictures, some from the old days and some that were recent photos of people I used to know back then...and to tell you the truth, when I'd look at these photos, tears would almost well up in my eyes.

I was just short of my 19th birthday when I 'received knowledge' and two years later I moved into the ashram.

For most of us back in those days, it was the time in our lives when we were eager to make connections outside of our families. Some people satisfy that drive by having families of their own, but for us...well I believe we sought to satisfy it by keeping the 'company of truth'.

And no doubt we loved each other almost as 'family'. Heck, NOT EVERY premie I met was a David Smith or Chuck Nathan...yes there were many premies with whom I could feel that sense of closeness.

I wonder though. Given the fact, that we were really of that age when we were so eager to connect, had I done something else such as gone away to university...would I have formed such close friendships with my dorm mates for example ?

Ya know, most people do.

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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 22:37:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: you would have never known how to navigate Florida
Message:
formed bonds with friends, etc. You are right. Most people do.
It's been one of those days for me too. Talking with a friend about my years with M. He was wanting to know why I knew Florida,
in particular Miami so well.

I told him how as a 'householder' with 2 toddlers, all the single premies would do a fund raiser every Hans Jayanti or Holi, etc.. and present this money to me.
Well, I had to use it right? I thought I did!! so, on the road to Florida, once again. hellacious road trips. Sometimes 2 or 3 a year!
And all the weird stuff that happened in Miami. I'd go out alone at night, hop on a bus, look for a club. End up in the WORST areas and always always someone would come to my rescue, didn't even know I was in danger! Like a lost waif and I'd get shelter and he'd make sure I was OK.
yeah, strange times. Of course I just thought it was all Lila and GRACE at the time.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 16:09:15 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: how to navigate Florida
Message:
Selene,

Miami, huh?

1616 Brickell Ave. even remember the address.(from 1972-3)

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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 18:16:26 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Reverence to JT! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 15:16:59 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Most Excellent JohnT !!! (nt)
Message:
not text
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Date: Sun, Jun 25, 2000 at 15:30:14 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Yes I agree gerry !!...and to John T....
Message:
...I've really appreciated your posts that I've read. If you're new here, let me say 'welcome'... and please feel free to keep'em coming :)

The best to you, John T!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 21:16:13 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Y'all
Subject: Thank you for your kindness ...
Message:
... I am very touched, by LE's words especially - and by SB's kind sentiment, even though I would protest that any reverence is due not to me, but to the art I am fortunate to be able to express here, as your guest.

Respect.

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