Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, Jul 06, 2000 at 22:00:23 (GMT)
From: Jun 25, 2000 To: Jul 04, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


Douche -:- Censorship saga -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:14:05 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Censorship saga -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 20:24:38 (GMT)
__ Happy -:- Censorship saga -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:49:06 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- To O - these are the real issues, pls join in (NT) -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:23:37 (GMT)
__ Tim Matheson -:- You shall reap what you sew -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 18:33:16 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Contact the Electronic Frontier Foundation -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:30:04 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- I did read the entire saga. Holy Cow! -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 22:32:52 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Censorship saga - not OK!! -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:23:18 (GMT)
__ Zelda -:- copy of my email to you -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:08:48 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- pss Zelda -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 18:13:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- pss Zelda -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:06:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- pss Zelda -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:57:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Pss Joey 'So What?' -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 00:24:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Are you forgetting something Zelda?? -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 00:59:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim Matheson -:- pss Zelda -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 18:37:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- pss Timmy -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 18:41:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tim Matheson -:- pss Timmy -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 20:24:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Who has used the word 'Bubba' recently as Tim does -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 03:21:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Hey Bubba -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 03:45:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Hey Bubba -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 04:26:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- ha! Love you -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 06:28:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- finally figured out I've been spelling -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 06:47:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- pss Timmy -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:54:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tim Matheson -:- Thanks for joining Joey -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 09:13:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- GET LOST TIMMY !! -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 15:51:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tim Matheson -:- Sorry, Joey -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 17:10:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Your hasty denial can only mean 1 thing, Joey -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 15:57:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- and your quick response can only mean one thing. -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 16:07:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Zing! (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 16:30:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Ooooh Jim, coffee, tea, or me? -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 22:31:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I'm crushed!! -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 22:51:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Crush with Eyeliner -:- Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 02:14:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Crush with Eyeliner -:- Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 02:42:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- I knew it! Joey is a premie!! -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:19:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- I knew it! Joey is a premie!! -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 16:42:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- I knew it! Joey is a premie!! -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 20:47:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Go fuck yourself Roger. -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 16:53:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Roger is not Know It All -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 19:32:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Wow, really! Joey was a premie after all? -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 15:24:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelxa -:- Wow, really! Joey was a premie after all? -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 20:57:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- why don't you join the ... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:59:58 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Very well done, Douche! -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 14:59:56 (GMT)
__ __ VP -:- Premies run Yahoo--snicker! -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 04:41:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- it sounds to me that they have never -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 06:59:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ VP -:- Did he try calling? -:- Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 20:59:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- dunno but that IS what I do -:- Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 00:56:51 (GMT)
__ Surprise Surprise -:- Congratulation Douche -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 13:53:05 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Censorship saga: Email the Attorney General.... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 13:22:00 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Will you sue me if -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 13:18:10 (GMT)
__ __ Douche -:- Will you sue me if -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 13:57:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- IF you've missed some of the previous chapters -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 14:46:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Happy -:- thanks... -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:53:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I guess we are writing history !!!! -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 13:50:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Question for you Jean-Michel (OT) -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:49:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- about shri anandpuri maharaj -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 03:09:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- thanks again! -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 03:50:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Happy -:- I'll be back -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:58:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- This is what's usually called disinformation -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:40:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Thanks J-M -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 21:10:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- IMPORTANT LINK on the birth of Radhasoami -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 09:04:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Great site JM, added to my research notes :nt -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 17:14:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Here's the reference to Totapuri: disinformation! -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 02:18:48 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Censorship saga -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:57:44 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- good idea Jethro -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:44:25 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Censorship saga -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:53:10 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Douche! Any chance of complaining about HIS site? -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:23:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Douche! Any chance of complaining about HIS site? -:- Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 08:02:51 (GMT)
__ JtF -:- Censorship saga-unbelievable -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:31:57 (GMT)

Rob -:- Spin doctoring (to Mili) -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:52:36 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- To O - these are the real issues, pls join in (NT) -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 22:58:33 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Good post, Rob and... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:33:10 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- Further reading -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:55:30 (GMT)
__ Mili -:- Spin doctoring (to Mili) -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:44:07 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- That's ripe coming from you millee, -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 18:18:14 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- Mili, you really should buy a dictionary! -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:27:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Rob, it's like talking to a pet -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:48:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- More like a parrot! -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:06:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Are we not men? -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:17:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- We are DEVO (tees..!) -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 02:25:59 (GMT)
__ __ ex mug -:- Spin doctoring (to Mili) -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 07:58:50 (GMT)

Monmot -:- Notice From Steve Hassan re P. McWilliams' Death -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:08:23 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Notice From Steve Hassan re P. McWilliams' Death -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:21:38 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Notice From Steve Hassan re P. McWilliams' Death -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:19:30 (GMT)
__ __ Happy -:- Notice From Steve Hassan re P. McWilliams' Death -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:58:23 (GMT)

slackandsteel -:- What was Hans Ji's job prior to being Satguru? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 17:47:34 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Interesting question- No answers? nt -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 14:43:05 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Interesting question- No answers? nt -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:17:54 (GMT)

Zelda PMS Dammit -:- Would someone post legal forms for claiming -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 07:41:49 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- huh? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 16:20:42 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- huh? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 16:21:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Oh, I see. We're just emoting or something? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 16:28:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda PMS Hair-Not Combed -:- Oh, I see. We're just emoting or something? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 16:52:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- You are absoulutely fabulous Zelda! LOL!!!! (OT) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:21:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- The guru form? Mais oui, just ask the French: -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:00:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Seriously cq and Zelda, this is very interesting.. -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:31:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Oui, les temps sont decidedly curious -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:27:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Oui mon Capitain! (+link to cq's premiere at FF) -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:35:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelxa -:- Oui mon Capitain! (+link to cq's premiere at FF) -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:08:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Curiouser and curiouser -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:27:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Nah, Didier COULDN'T have your email address! -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:44:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Seriously cq and Zelda, this is very interesting.. -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:52:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- to Stonor cq and SB. -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 05:41:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Ditto for you too cq! (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:23:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda Hoping mais oue -:- The guru form? Jim look at cqs post. -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:12:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- The guru form? Jim look at cqs post. -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:25:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- The guru form? Jim look at cqs post. Stonor I... -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 23:27:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- 'fabulous!' not 'form' (Jim don't look at this)0T -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:27:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- 'fabulous!' not 'form' (Jim don't look at this)0T -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:57:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- 'fabulous!' not 'form' (Jim don't look at this)0T -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 05:34:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- 'fabulous!' not 'form' (Jim don't look at this)0T -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 13:16:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- 'fabulous!' not 'form' (Jim don't look at this)0T -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:04:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- 'fabulous!' not 'form' (Jim don't look at this)0T -:- Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 08:09:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Je have posted un request sur l'autre Forum -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:34:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I've understood your English AND your French, but -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 10:02:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- To Jean Michael (Cc: Stonor SB cq) -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:19:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- To Jean Michael (Cc: Stonor SB cq) -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:37:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- ROFL!!!! Not bad French either! (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:27:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- The guru form? Jim look at cqs post. -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:34:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Joey -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 23:19:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Zelda -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:09:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Joey you dirt rat -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 01:49:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Good night Zelda :::)) -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:08:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- To Zelda: :))) LOL (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:01:54 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- PMS (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:46:38 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- PMS (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 16:58:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- PMS (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 17:39:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- You're Not Doing a Sequel to The Shining, Are You? -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:47:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- You're Not Doing a Sequel to The Shining, Are You? -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:47:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- You're Not Doing a Sequel to The Shining, Are You? -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 05:21:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- You're Not Doing a Sequel to The Shining, Are You? -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:43:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- PMS (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:15:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- PMS (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:50:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- PMS (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 23:31:00 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- PMS (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 14:30:27 (GMT)

sam -:- techniques -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 02:16:47 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- The 5 Names issue, and Rawat's value a a teacher -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 08:13:11 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- The 5 Names issue, and Rawat's value a a teacher -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 13:01:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- techniques -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 14:43:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Happy, I'm impressed! -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:20:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Happy -:- thanks -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 13:07:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Happy, I'm impressed! -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 07:24:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- A teacher's value -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 14:28:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- A teacher's value -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:09:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gwh -:- A teacher's value -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:52:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You lost me there, gw -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:10:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gwh -:- You lost me there, gw -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:36:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Are you saying -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:44:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gwh -:- Are you saying -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 03:21:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Elaine is so loving....NOT!! -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 01:29:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Yes, forget about the others... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:49:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Yes, forget about the others... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:23:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Yes, forget about the others... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 18:02:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Gerry, correcto again...aha... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 01:57:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- well said, SB (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:28:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Forget meditation -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:55:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Forget meditation -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:45:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- To Elaine: What is awakening? nt -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:16:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- OK , sorry to be the one to give you the bad news -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:10:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Forget meditation but not medication: It can help -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:01:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Forget meditation -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:06:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Who are 'they'? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:20:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Who are 'they'? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:25:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine's Mother -:- Darling, didn't I tell you... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:07:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Who are 'they'? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 21:48:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- The beetle in the box -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:29:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- The beetle in the box -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:42:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- That's the ticket,Hal ( NT -:- Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 15:13:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Oh, wise one, pls, help this deluded soul... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:08:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Oh, wise one, pls, help this deluded soul... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 14:06:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Oh, wise one, pls, help this deluded soul... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:57:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ RobertB -:- Be sure and wear flowers in your hair... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:46:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Oh, wise one, pls, help this deluded soul... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:11:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You're a snotty bitch aren't you Elaine -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:10:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Why on Earth would you think that? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:35:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Why on Earth would you think that? I'll tell you. -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:15:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Why on Earth would you think that? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:48:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Why on Earth would you think that? -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 23:58:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- why are you here, Elaine? -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- You're a snotty bitch aren't you Elaine -:- Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:22:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Well, Mili... -:- Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:19:46 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:14:05 (GMT)
From: Douche
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Censorship saga
Message:
For anyone interested in the frustrating saga of my attempts to get Geocities to reinstate the old CultWatch Maharaji site, or at least explain why they've bowed to BigM's legal beagles without getting them to specify what they're objecting to, I've put the whole Kafkaesque correspondence on line at http://www.cpubs.fsnet.co.uk/yahoo/index.html

It makes poking your eyeballs and shoving your tongue down your throat seem really quite pleasurable!

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 20:24:38 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Douche
Subject: Censorship saga
Message:
Douche: Could you email me about this censorship issue, please?

Thanks, Marianne

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:49:06 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: Censorship saga
Message:
Dave,

Just to let you know, I have sent the following email to Anthony Coll at Yahoo's copyright office:

Dear Mr. Anthony P. Coll:

I have followed the issue of Yahoo's closing down a site upkept by David Sterling, critical of the dangerous cult leader Guru Maharaji, after pressure from the cult leader's lawyers.

I find this very tragic, and also bad for Yahoo's reputation. Yahoo should stand for free communication, rather than for self-imposed censorship. I find it especially questionable that Mr. Sterling, despite his efforts, has not been informed exactly what picture(s) on his site is/are copyrighted. Allow me to doubt that any picture whatsoever was copyrighted. Mr. Sterling's rights have been severy damaged, and the whole matter is bound to damage Yahoo's reputation even more severely.

Yours sincerely,

(Signature)

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:23:37 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: O
Subject: To O - these are the real issues, pls join in (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 18:33:16 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: You shall reap what you sew
Message:
I remember hearing OUR LORD say that back in the 70's. So true, so true!!
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:30:04 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Douche
Subject: Contact the Electronic Frontier Foundation
Message:
I don't have time to read all the good stuff, but I've got an idea.

Contact Robin Gross at the Electronic Frontier Foundation or the ACLU.

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 22:32:52 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I did read the entire saga. Holy Cow!
Message:
Thanks, Mr. Douche. Quite the run around. How simple and easy it is to put the kabosh on free speech.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:23:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: Censorship saga - not OK!!
Message:
As I had done with Jean Michel, I offer any help I can Douche
with writing, whatever. This is sickening.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:08:48 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: copy of my email to you
Message:
Hi

If it was me I would get a free 10 minutes with a copyright attorney. They usually give free time to assess potential cases. This could be done over the phone.
Tell them the outline of what is going on and ask them to assess the corresspondence on line and decide whether you have a case against Malary and/or Yahoo.

THEN ask if they can assign the case to an underling in training who needs some practice WITH the understanding that if they settle they get 40% of the settlement and if they dont settle- then no payment for services. In my experience lawyers will consider it.

NOTE- the copyright attorney would not be evaluating whether your site broke the rules but the wrongful demand for removal and subsequent removal.

The content of your site- and if Mahrahe has a ligitimate complaint is a different matter altogether.

The most glaring thing to me is that you are tryng to communicate to these jokers and they really only listen to legal letterheads.

Currently I am up against some suits who represent a powerful organization. So I did my homework on my case by means of a couple of free session with some expensive attorneys. THEN I took the info gleaned and went to a community lawyer firm who accepts Legal Aid cases. This firm is eager for the experience and has older more experinced lawyers who act as mentors for the Legal Aid team.

I really think that you will not get very far unless Millband Tweed and Muffinskins gets letters from an attorneys office.

I am not sure if this is Jims field but he could be effective if he has a letterhead ect.

It may be that you can file a couter claim to Millbank tweed and tweeduldum via an attorney who wants/needs/can do the paperwork.
When in doubt remember the McLibel case.

Two average citizens with zero finance took on a major multinational and won some very good points and loads of bad PR was accomplished.

Zelda

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 18:13:38 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: pss Zelda
Message:
Nothing like consistency, Zelda.

YESTERDAY, you told us that your limited legal knowledge was

gleaned form TV and one or two traffic tickets

TODAY we find out from you, that you are currently

..up against some suits who represent a powerful organization. So I did my homework on my case...

Well its a brand new day Zelda and you're certainly entitled to reinvent yourself.

Always nice talking to you :)

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:06:25 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: pss Zelda
Message:
my arent you clever.

There is no contradiction. I am no legal eagle Joey and it really is from the media (oh ya and videos on true cases help) -that I get some clues as to steps to take and I make lots and lots of mistakes.

For your info the case I have envolved myself in is a environmental protection action and I am part of the action group.

Traffic tickets are my other CV feature.

Why dont you go do your clever sleuthing elsewhere or maybe you need verification.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:57:06 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: pss Zelda
Message:
I don't believe a word you say.
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 00:24:59 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Pss Joey 'So What?'
Message:
no need to post to each other is there.
bye
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 00:59:08 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Are you forgetting something Zelda??
Message:
It's nice that you've recognized that there really isn't any need for us to post each other, but I think you're conveniently forgetting, that it was you who started this by adressing a post to me in which your principle message was 'Begone'.
And that's a fact. I didn't begin posting to you. You began posting to me.
So as far as the future goes... I really don't cut any deals with your kind.
Good luck to you.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 18:37:12 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: pss Zelda
Message:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ilovemaharaji

us old-time premies need to stick together..please join

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 18:41:03 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: pss Timmy
Message:
Now I know you're a joke ::))))
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 20:24:43 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: pss Timmy
Message:
If you read my story above, you now understand this to be no joke. I need HIS love in my miserable, wretched life. Join me in my club so we can 'Spread this Knowledge' on the internet. Come on now, Joey, you know you used to like that song. We can do it, Bubba. The grace is there and it can be our service to HIM.
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 03:21:21 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Who has used the word 'Bubba' recently as Tim does
Message:
or maybe I am a square and it is the latest hip word- but I have not seen it on the forum except from Tim in the post above and one other person in the last 10 days.

Sorry but I havent yet mastered getting the post to reappear in this box for the purpose of making comment.

Zelda

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 03:45:43 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Hey Bubba
Message:
I called 'O' bubba one time when I was pissed off. And no, I am not Tim Matheson, but I did think his site is funny:)
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 04:26:35 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Hey Bubba
Message:
Oh. I was sure it was around. Thanks for the reply.
Must check out the site
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 06:28:25 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: ha! Love you
Message:
thanks
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 06:47:06 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ps
Subject: finally figured out I've been spelling
Message:
Interrupted wrong.
poor Girl.!! ugh what a movie. Good thing the weather got nice.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:54:01 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: pss Timmy
Message:
Join me in my club so we can 'Spread this Knowledge' on the internet. Come on now, Joey, you know you used to like that song...

That's right, Timmy, I USED TO like that song.
But if I'd hear it today, it would probably make me puke.

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 09:13:24 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Thanks for joining Joey
Message:
I guess I understand why you had to use a pseudo. This ex site is weird. Hopefully, someday they will return to HIS LOTUS FEETS like we have.
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 15:51:01 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: GET LOST TIMMY !!
Message:
For the record, although this is getting a little tiring... I haven't joined your bullshit little club, not under my own name and not under a pseudo.

Oh, and one more thing. You said

Hopefully, someday they will return to HIS LOTUS FEETS like we have.

I'll have 'HIS LOTUS FEETS' burned before I would ever return to them, you sick little fuck.

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 17:10:49 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Sorry, Joey
Message:
Joey(I'm confused, is your real name Roger?)is not a premie.

Joey is not a premie
Joey is not a premie

There, that should fix it for you.

See ya at HIS FEETS!!

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 15:57:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Your hasty denial can only mean 1 thing, Joey
Message:
Joey,

Have you been holding out on us?

God, who'd have thought that Joey, of all people, was still a premie. Oh well.

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 16:07:49 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: and your quick response can only mean one thing.
Message:
Jim,

It's not my problem if you've been buggered into your nonsense by your brother, 'Roger e Drek'

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 16:30:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Zing! (nt)
Message:
rrr
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 22:31:20 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Ooooh Jim, coffee, tea, or me?
Message:
Jim, don't you think that we should follow Joey's lead by coming clean with our dirty little secret?

Perhaps, we should have a 'coming out' party at Thursday's and invite the Victorian elite like that guy I embarassed you with my overly emotional airport good-bye scene at the airport the last time I saw you and the ever lovely Miss L.

Joey, I'm very proud of you for admitting your true colors.

I love you, Joey!

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 22:51:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I'm crushed!!
Message:
I thought you loved me. sigh.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 02:14:10 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Selene
Subject: Crush with Eyeliner
Message:
I know you
I know you've seen her
She's a sad tomato
She's three miles of bad road
Walking down the street
Will I never meet her?
She's a real woman-child
Oh my kiss breath turpentine

I am smitten

I'm the real thing (I'm the real thing)
Have you seen her come around?
My crush with eyeliner

I'm in like.
I'm infatuated.
It's all too much-the pressure.
She's all that I can take
What position should I wear?
Cop an attitude? (you faker)
How can I convince her? (Faker)
That I'm invented too, yeah

I am smitten
I'm the real thing (I'm the real thing)
We all invent ourselves
and, uh, you know me

Yeah, she's a sad tomato
She's three miles of bad road
She's her own invention (She's her own invention)
That gets me in the throat
What can I make myself be?
Life is strange, yeah (Life is strange)
What can I make myself be (Fake her)
To make her mine?

I am smitten
I'll do anything (I'll do anything)
A kiss breath turpentine,
my crush with eyeliner

I am smitten
You know me (Yeah, you know me)
I could be your Frankenstein
my crush with eyeliner

I am smitten
I'm the real thing (I'm the real thing)
Won't you be my valentine?
My crush with eyeliner


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Date: Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 02:42:08 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Crush with Eyeliner
Message:
Thanks Roger. I know that is a weird response but really
I liked that. It's real. and so true.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:19:07 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: I knew it! Joey is a premie!!
Message:
Ha!
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 16:42:02 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: I knew it! Joey is a premie!!
Message:
Zelda: Well, I thought Joey was an ex, but his joining Tim Matheson's new Pro Maharaji club has convinced me otherwise. Do you think it is possible that Joey and Tim are the same person?

KIA

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 20:47:47 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: I knew it! Joey is a premie!!
Message:
Thinking a little clearer now.
No I dont think Joey and Tim are the same person.

I analyse this stuff you know and Tim is in the 'helping out stage' he wants to help and everybody to be nice.

Joey on the other hand is at the other end of the spectrum. mean spirited and wants to trap le exs into revealing their many facets so he can ensnarl them in their supposed mind games.

Then he spins a web of curses and throws them in Jabbas pit for Tim to heal.

They work together but are not the same person. I analyse this stuff you know.

It is about time for me to turn into Trixie now. I just want to be concentrating on love and light and having fun.

Maybe I can have a meaningful conversation with Tim and let him see the error of his ways. He seems like such a nice person but trapped in the retro ways.

It surprises me really. He should know that Maraji doesnt prefer that style of devotion. If he is that much of a rebel perhaps he is worth saving-no?

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 16:53:33 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Go fuck yourself Roger.
Message:
Do you think Roger e Drek and Know It All are the same person ??
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 19:32:28 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Roger is not Know It All
Message:
And I'm just relieved to know you're back in the fold, Joey.
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 15:24:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Wow, really! Joey was a premie after all?
Message:
That's pretty amazing given all the supposedly anti-Maharaji stuff he's written. Gues you can't be to osure about anyone these days, huh?
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 20:57:44 (GMT)
From: Zelxa
Email: nix
To: Jim
Subject: Wow, really! Joey was a premie after all?
Message:
Hello Jim

I am still sore from the last plummetting. But I do know that no true ex would be that mean with an ex.

Huh Jim

If you believed in prayer I would suggest one for Joey. His is in deep soul pain.
You can tell by how mean he thinks.

Been there enough to know
Zelxa

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:59:58 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: why don't you join the ...
Message:
...ice capades. You certainly know how to skate all over the place.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 14:59:56 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: Very well done, Douche!
Message:
As someone else said below, I'd be bald or on tranquilizers by now if I'd had to go through that. If it is just ONE photo...well, sheesh! I guess they don't like the rest of your site very much either...obviously.

Also, I think you are allowed to put on links to other sites EVEN if these sites are infringing copyright (apparently THEY think ex-premie.org is, although they have not contacted us. So far.) This was a big issue in the Mormon Church case, and I don't think it was resolved.

The truth appears to be that Geocities will pull any site if someone gets a lawyer to object to a miniscule part of the content. (As you probably know, Geocities has already been in trouble for releasing personal information about its users when it specifically said it would not. I am guessing that there are web pages about this issue as well.)

Anyway, congratulations on your persistence. (Very well designed page, too - as always.)

Katie

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 04:41:19 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Premies run Yahoo--snicker!
Message:
Douche,

Your site helped me so much, so I hate that it's down.

You were civil and reasonable with all of your requests to Yahoo--their answers sounded like THEY were in a cult. This has led me to the conclusion that premies run Yahoo (just kidding, but I couldn't resist.)

I'll never use Yahoo again for anything. What a way to run a business--HA! What a joke. What a bunch of chicken shits. Surely there is another website provider with some ethics. Surely they aren't all THAT scared of lawsuits from cults. Don't these guys know they can just threaten to call the media and EV will back right off of them--sheesh!

Those guys at EV think they are so clever not answering you, but it just shows how deceitful and vile they really are. They are so transparent. They don't want to resolve this and they don't care about Maharaji's photo being on the site. They just want your site down. This reinforces all of my feelings about how shady and sleazy this cult really is.

Sounds to me like they are after your photo of the Big M in the head dress--the one on each page of your site. Just don't get rid of the one with the guy using the baragon--my personal favorite.
VP


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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 06:59:24 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: it sounds to me that they have never
Message:
really had to deal with anything quite like this before.
And wouldn't M like that?
I may be naiive here but the exchange sounded almost NEW in the sense that Yahoo was sounding to me 'off the cuff'. As in, not sure what the fuck to do. I'm not excusing them at all. Don't get me wrong. I am amazed and shocked actually.

but perhaps?? they have not been involved in quite such a seamy and convoluted mess as this before?
Just throwing this out. I have no idea, but that is the impression I got. Which is no way letting them off the hook.
I liked Jethro's suggestions on writing and intend to

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Date: Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 20:59:17 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Did he try calling?
Message:
That is an interesting way to look at it and you may be right. To me it seemed like they were too busy to be bothered--'Hey, take up your beef with the other pary, we're too busy', or too afraid of a lawsuit.

Another thought that hit me was it sounded like a different person answered each e-mail and didn't know what the person before had written to Dave. Not really feasible for an answer, but didn't it LOOK like that is what was happening? I mean if a single person was giving him the same answer each time, they would have to be a complete moron OR they were intentionally avoiding answering him. Perhaps because they couldn't get any answers from EV themselves (OH, that would be a HUGE surprise wouldn't it?? snicker!)

Did Dave try calling them on the phone? That would be preferrable to all of the e-mailing, provided he could actually speak to someone in person.

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Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 00:56:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: dunno but that IS what I do
Message:
In one of my worst battles with injustice. Me vs. the water department I did both. I found calling alone to be VERY ineffective as they can just blow you off, never call back.
Lettters tend to hit harder.
But together with calling **and** Letters with signatures are the best That is why I like Jethro's idea. It is similar to getting a petition or additional signatures. But you know now that I think about it, a combined effort would / could / might be an even more effective letter??
But, I'm supposedly 'in charge' this week at work, and next - ha I think? - ha what a joke.
So I'm a little scattered a far as leading anything especially on this place!! Dave will ask for help if he wants it, I guess, is my final analysis.
It's just that censorship from a company like YaHoo just pisses
me off so much. I've met some of their employess. All so upbeat and all. And cnservative in an odd way. New way.
Makes me sick this industry. OK time to shut up, it's the end of a long, more-real-than-usual work day for me!
(manager meetings are the worst thing ever next to PMS and cults)
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 13:53:05 (GMT)
From: Surprise Surprise
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: Congratulation Douche
Message:
Douche appointed to be 'The Quarrelsome of the Century' by Yahoo
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 13:22:00 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: Censorship saga: Email the Attorney General....
Message:
of the cities where the law firm is, Yahoo and where Lard lives and request an investigation. Jim? Am I off?

Hang in there...

Love,

SB

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 13:18:10 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: Will you sue me if
Message:
I use your new pages for the new chapter im my saga ?
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 13:57:05 (GMT)
From: Douche
Email: ds@cpubs.fsnet.co.uk
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Will you sue me if
Message:
Feel free Jean-Michel

Douche

P.S. I've just put a feedack page at the end of the emails (at http://www.cpubs.fsnet.co.uk/yahoo/feedback.html
if you can't be bothered going through them all again). Any comments would be much appreciated. If we can get enough people to register their opinion, perhaps we can bring down Yahoo's walls of indifference.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 14:46:53 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: IF you've missed some of the previous chapters
Message:
Here is the link to

The Whole Saga

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:53:33 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: thanks...
Message:
...for putting the whole saga on the net.

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 13:50:04 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: I guess we are writing history !!!!
Message:
and this has to remain available .....

I still owe you some documents, I'll mail them to you asap...

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:49:50 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Question for you Jean-Michel (OT)
Message:
Sorry to change the topic of this thread, just wanted your attention.

I was inspired by Happy's post somewhere below in which he gave some background information on the origin of the 4 techniques adopted by Rawat for his cult.

So I spent a few hours researching on the web for the origins of yoga, hinduism, guru's etc etc. Man what a trip! I found papers documenting the timeline of Indian history & yoga going back to 6500BC and a wealth of hagiography's on Indian saints & mahatmas.

I was actually amazed at the documentation of hundreds and hundreds of Indian gurus, swamis, sannyasins etc.

OK, so here's my point and my question. On Rawat's website he lists the supposed geneology of Knowledge distributors as:

sri totapuri ji maharaj (1780-1866), sri anandpuri ji maharaj (1782-1872), param hans dayal sri adwetanand ji (1840-1919),sri swarupanand ji maharaj (1884-1936,) HRH yogiraj param hans sadgurudev sri hans ji maharaj (1900-1966)

Well I did a very thorough search using Dogpile (which accesses up to 20 other search engines) on all these names, both in their full form and abbreviated to the key name, and the ONLY sites which referenced ANY of them were maharaji.org variants (ie Italy, Germany, France etc).

There was one exception: sri totapuri was mentioned on one page as being the guru of paramhansa ramakrishna, who is well documented throughout the web.

Have you (or anyone) managed to find any mention of these supposed saints in any publication other than the cults own? Is it possible they are, ahem, not entirely kosher? I'd be very interested in any information you have, as I have it in mind to write a few articles for newspaper/magazine submission.

Thanks,

Rob

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 03:09:39 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: about shri anandpuri maharaj
Message:
The founder of the Radhasoami faith is definitely shiv dayal singh.

But shiv dayal's source of inspiration is not clearly established, as you'll find out. His biographers usually refer to the Kabir pants and the many gurus of that time. Shri anandpur maharaj must be one of the names of one of these gurus.

That's my take .......

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 03:50:02 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: thanks again!
Message:
Interesting that it's all sufficiently vague as to make a definitive analysis difficult. I'm sure that's not accidental! It would hardly do for the History Creation team at m.org to come up with names which could be easily disputed!

I'll press on for a few weeks myself and see what surfaces. Don't be surprised if those gurus suddenly disappear from his site and all the premies deny having seen them! (Better cache a copy now J-M!)

Rob

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:58:08 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: I'll be back
Message:
Rob,

I have some details about some of these guys, but I'm a little in a hurry right now. I'll be back with a longer post later on at some point.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:40:59 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: This is what's usually called disinformation
Message:
I found papers documenting the timeline of Indian history & yoga going back to 6500BC and a wealth of hagiography's on Indian saints & mahatmas.

You have to be careful about this. Lots of other gurus, schools, and Hindu sects refer to legends and myths, without ANY historical proof.

I guess what they all use is an old stone statue found at the Mohenjo Daro site, representing a person seated in the lotus posture, dated 6500 BC as a 'proof' that yoga already existed at that time ...... There are lots of ancient hindu scriptures, and those refering to yoga and meditation are not 'ancient'. There are also lots of recent 'scriptures', even from the 20th century, considered 'holy', and refering to new/old myths and legends ..... Exactly like Rawat does!!!!

A bit like the old testament giving dates for the world's creation etc. Or $cientology secret 'scriptures' refering to strange texts from outer space. This is all legends.

I was actually amazed at the documentation of hundreds and hundreds of Indian gurus, swamis, sannyasins etc.

This is an actual part of the hindu religious sytem and traditional society, with a myriad of scriptures, schools, gods, etc. Some are genuinely 'old' which give them some sort of official seal of being genuine ....

Doesn't mean than any of them are related to Rawat's 'tradition' either. If you've read Sitaram's interview, he's clearly explained how and when the Radhasoami groups are born. And there are lots of other documents on this issue.

sri totapuri ji maharaj (1780-1866), sri anandpuri ji maharaj (1782-1872), param hans dayal sri adwetanand ji (1840-1919),sri swarupanand ji maharaj (1884-1936,) HRH yogiraj param hans sadgurudev sri hans ji maharaj (1900-1966)

Totapuri is clearly a saint/ascet of the 18th century who's been an influence of Shiv Dayal Sing who's more or less the founder of Radhasoami. I found some reference to him in Shiv Dayal's biography, and maybe also in the Sant Mat' book, I don't remember.

Anandpuri is also some obscure ascet of the 18th century.

Param hans dayal sri adwetanand ji is another name for Shiv Dayal Sing, that Rawat doesn't want to mention under his real name for obvious reasons.

The other guys you know .....

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 21:10:21 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks J-M
Message:
This is obviously an enormous subject to delve into, and you've certainly done your homework. I'll follow up if I dig anything fresh up myself.

I think it worthwhile pursuing, because it's interesting how this *history* suddenly appeared recently - most other hindu sects are at pains to demonstrate some kind of longevity to aspirants. One would think that something as 'important' as the succession of Living Perfect Masters would have been fully documented along the way!

Perhaps I'll try to get in touch with the historians at some of India's major libraries, see what they have on record re those names.

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 09:04:05 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: IMPORTANT LINK on the birth of Radhasoami
Message:
faith.

Check :
RADHASOAMI FAITH : A HISTORICAL STUDY where PP Dadaji Maharaj (one present satguru-colleague of Prem Rawat) has a very enlightening document online.


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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 17:14:25 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Great site JM, added to my research notes :nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 02:18:48 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Here's the reference to Totapuri: disinformation!
Message:
Check this link:

http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/saints/ramakrishna.htm

where Totapuri is refered as a monk who's inspired Ramakrishna.

My take is that he's using his name as a reference to somehow link his spiritual 'origins' to Ramakrishna, whom he also refers to at times.

A bit like saying that Ramakrishna and Hans had the same gurus ...... see?

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:57:44 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: Censorship saga
Message:
So it seems that anyone can make accusations against any site and geocites will suspend the site immediately.
These actions will only promote more interest in the subject.
(Just like the MacDonald's case here in the UK).

I have emailed all the people I know who run discusion or similar sites on geocites giving them the URL.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:44:25 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: good idea Jethro
Message:
I think I may do something similar. That is a very effective action. Thanks.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:53:10 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: Censorship saga
Message:
As some of you know I am now living in the middle of forests and swamps in northern Latvia. I don't have a land line yet (should have after a month or two, and after paying 1500 USD) so internet access is only possible when I go to Riga which I do about once every week or two. I don't usually have much time to check the Ex-Premie forum, but just thought I'd drop in to see what's being discussed.

This saga is UNBELIEVABLE!!! Well done Douche for your patience and perseverence. If anything still thinks Maharaji and EV are a good thing, surely this will change their minds. I hope ex-premie.org is well prepared for a similar assault:-)!!!!

Greetings to all the exes:-)

John.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:23:54 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: Douche! Any chance of complaining about HIS site?
Message:
For brainwashing data relating to our traumatic experience??
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Date: Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 08:02:51 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Douche! Any chance of complaining about HIS site?
Message:
What about contacting 'some people' -flood-in US gov. to 'share' what the French have done to protect their citizens from following the trap of mental manipulation. Lard's site is very dangerous because he conceals the most important part of 'his' K, DEVOTION TO HIM!! Devotion is the untimate goal in his trip. I have plenty of videos where he says that...
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:31:57 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: Douche
Subject: Censorship saga-unbelievable
Message:
Do you have any hair left on your head? You are a much more patient man than I.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:52:36 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Spin doctoring (to Mili)
Message:
[Reply to Mili's post below, which went awol somehow]

Well I certainly hope you're on the payroll, because you must be spinning yourself dizzy here.
What you are engaging in are classic spin doctoring techniques. How do I know this? Because a lot of the time I am paid to do exactly that in my profession. Part of what I do is write speeches for corporate executives, so it is often my job to paint a glowing, friendly picture of the state of that particular company for the benefit of shareholders and staff. Everything I write (for them) has to be factual and true, however, there are many ways to dress the Christmas tree!

Sometimes it's as simple as 'emphasise the positive and gloss over (or leave out) the negative'. If a particular CEO had a bad reputation, or had done some questionable things in his life, I simply reinvent him.

On a purely professional level, I have to admire the way in which Rawat has been reinvented in post-DLM years. The changes have been subtly introduced and the game plan extended over something like a decade. Gone are the Krishna costumes and Arti candles, massive floral stage sets and darshan lines. Replacing them we have tailored suits, minimalist stage design and expansive product merchandising. Boy, I would have *loved* that contract!

What I love about you, Mili, is that you epitomise the premie mindset which made the transition possible. During the whole metamorphosis, Rawat had to keep a tight rein on the premies in order to avoid a mass exodus. Intensive repetition of key phrases such as 'focus on this Knowledge, external things will change and are not what matters, stay on the boat, etc etc' were designed to blinker the older generation of premies, calm their insecurities and keep them on board.

Newer recruits were made to feel priveleged to be part of 'modern maharaji' by receiving the techniques from him personally. At the same time, older values and hindu attributes were being slowly removed and those who 'held onto them' were subtly ridiculed, often in public Q & A sessions. Interesting to note that now he is pretty much over the transition phase, there appears to be no real reason for him to personally attend knowledge sessions (or events, actually) and so we see these giving way to CD-ROM initiations and satellite feeds.

For me, Mili, and for quite a few others here, the issue isn't whether or not 'knowledge feels good'. I've tried a bunch of meditation techniques, and to a greater or lesser degree they all produce some kind of 'feeling', the four which Rawat has claimed as his own are no different. The degree of experience one derives from any practice of meditation depends on many mental and biological factors, which I won't go into right here.

The whole point, which you and your premie pals are missing, is that Rawat has taken these bog-standard meditation techniques and created a cult around them, has brainwashed and continues to brainwash thousands of people into believing that 'his' techniques are different from anyone elses, and that in order to benefit from them, one needs to acquiesce fully to his teachings and demands. This is and always has been the root principle and major lie of his cult. The only things that have changed is the presentation, and like I have said, it was a skillful exercise in corporate re-imaging.

I hope this helps you to see why this 'bugs us', as you said at the end of your post.

Rob

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 22:58:33 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: O
Subject: To O - these are the real issues, pls join in (NT)
Message:
(NT)
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:33:10 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Good post, Rob and...
Message:
I don't have Hector Ramirez's url. I found it doing a search on Maha.

The degree of experience one derives from any practice of meditation depends on many mental and biological factors, which I won't go into right here.

Could you elaborate on this a little or point me to a website or book for further information? Thanks.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:55:30 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Further reading
Message:
Hi Gerry,

Best link I've come across recently (thanks to Stonor) is:

http://onebehindthemany.tripod.com/

It is a huge page of links to sites covering everything related to human experience, yoga, meditation, etc. The subjects are quite well categorized, so you shouldn't have much trouble tracking down what you want to read about. Even includes Darwinism and other stuff Jim might be interested in.

I didn't want to dilute the point I was making, as Mili seems to have difficulty comprehending even the simplest of posts:)

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:44:07 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Rob
Subject: Spin doctoring (to Mili)
Message:
Great conspiracy theory there, Rob. You don't sound like you're having much fun though.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 18:18:14 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: That's ripe coming from you millee,
Message:
have you ever actually looked at your web site from an outsiders perspective, if that's what the knowledge of all knowledges does to a persons sense of style and communication ability, well I think I'll pass thanks, oh and by the way, in case you're interested, I'm having a blissful time. And while on that one, what exactly was it about Rob's post that implied to you he was unhappy?? I know, questions, questions, more mind to have to deal with, ahh well I guess that's the price of real devotion.

I do pray for you, you know that don't you.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:27:29 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili, you really should buy a dictionary!
Message:
A conspiracy is a plot to commit a crime or do harm, often used in legal jargon and in political commentary.

What I was talking about in my post were marketing techniques and the repackaging of the cult to appeal to a wider, contemporary audience.

But, as usual, and in keeping with your mission here, you chose to ignore the main points entirely and try to throw the focus off with vacuous statements. Keep up this shoddy performance and you can kiss goodbye to your commission check!

As far as me having fun goes, Mili, your lame attempts at defending the cult have me in tears most nights. You, O and Deputy Dog are the best comedy team since the Stooges!

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:48:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Rob, it's like talking to a pet
Message:
Rob,

There is no way in the world that you can ever, ever get Mili to:

1) stay on topic
2) admit the obvious pith of a statement
3) accept the obvious ramifications of a fact he doesn't like
4) admit obvious facts he doesn't like
5) show any intelligence or integrity at all

He's got the moral sensitivity of a horse, quite frankly. Or maybe a pig.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:06:33 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: More like a parrot!
Message:
You're right Jim, but it seems like he's the best they've got at the moment. Maybe it's a budget thing!

I suppose we shouldn't be too hard on him, after all, he is still brainwashed with little hope of escape.

Also, what does it say about the cult when it's principals refuse to even address their critics, leaving that to volunteer half-wits like Mili, O and Dep Dog?

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:17:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Are we not men?
Message:
Wull ah seh, nevu un ahl muh bone day, have ah sin such a thin! These pipple sim to huv FOguttin their basic YUman DIGniddy, doncha know wut ahm sayin'? Theyz howlin' et us lahk simple BAWNyahd annnumules! No rom o raisen wut they sayin'...

Wuz we evuh lahk thet? Ah'd sho hate to think so, thet's raht!

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 02:25:59 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: We are DEVO (tees..!)
Message:
They tell us that
We lost our tails...
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 07:58:50 (GMT)
From: ex mug
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Spin doctoring (to Mili)
Message:
Mili, perhaps you should wake up to the reality of maharaj ji's business, which is what it is, and then Rob's comments will no
longer appear as a conspiracy theory.

Rob's observation seems pretty spot on to me,
and he sounds as though he is having fun :)

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:08:23 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Notice From Steve Hassan re P. McWilliams' Death
Message:
FYI. Just received the following notice from Steve Hassan's organization (/b) re Peter McWilliams' death. Peter was a former follower of John-Roger (Hinkins), a former school teacher, who became the Mystical Traveler after he emerged from a coma. (Some people will do anything to get out of their day job.) :>)

Here's the notice:
It is with great sadness that I learned this morning of the death of my friend, Peter McWilliams. Peter was a brilliant, funny, creative man who made many, many contributions to this world.

He was a former cult member of several groups, and when he
realized the truth about mind control, he was a tireless activist to educate the public as well as help those still trapped in
John-Roger's MSIA cult (I wonder if Arianna Huffington ever left?).

When he became ill with cancer and AIDS, he became an advocate for the use of medical marijuana. I am so sad that our government's drug policies are so out of step with the American
people's view on this subject. I want to thank those of you who
took the time to write to the Judge overseeing his case to ask for leniency.

I can only hope that the future will bring more clear mindedness to the way we choose to live our lives. Thanks, Peter for your
many contributions. Unfortunately, his book 'LIFE 102: What to
Do When your Guru Sues You' (/b) is out of print, but there might be a copy on the web somewhere, much to the disdain of John-Roger.

Steve Hassan

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:21:38 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Notice From Steve Hassan re P. McWilliams' Death
Message:
That's really sad.

I really enjoyed his book, 'What to do When Your Guru Sues You'. It's amazing how much in common the cult he was in has with our old cult.

I didn't know he was a midnight toker too. Marijuana is illegal in the UK too, but they prescribe cannabis tablets to people undergoing chemotherapy, mainly to stimulate their appetite.

Last time I did a search his book wasn't on the net anymore. Maybe someone should put it back up.

He was obviously someone of great character.

Anth

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:19:30 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Notice From Steve Hassan re P. McWilliams' Death
Message:
I loved his book, didn't know he was ill. There was a good obit/commentary on his death written by Wm. Buckley of all people (www.sightings.com) Sad to say he choked on his own vomit after the gestapo, I mean the government forbade him from using marijuana for nausea. It was the only thing which worked for him and kept him alive through the agony of chemotherapy. He had to submit to twice weekly urine analysis to make sure he wasn't taking a toke.

We need a revolution, folks. Keep your guns in good working order...

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 12:58:23 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Notice From Steve Hassan re P. McWilliams' Death
Message:
I too have read his book about 'What to do when your guru sues you' and enjoyed it. He was a funny and intelligent person. His fight for his right to use marihuana as a pain killer put him into trouble - but no doubt, an intelligent man is dead.
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 17:47:34 (GMT)
From: slackandsteel
Email: slackandsteel@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: What was Hans Ji's job prior to being Satguru?
Message:
Is there any information of Hans Ji's life prior to him proclaiming himself Satguru? I checked out Prof Tandon's
hagiography on this website and there was no information
about this, only the stuff about him being God incarnate etc.

Just curious to know what he did to make a living before he took up the guru racket.

-Bill

PS What ever happened with that 'Temple of All Religions', secondary and university, medical clinic etc that was planned? I guess they needed the money to buy the Nissan 'President' (anyone remember that silly looking car that Guru Maharaji had in India, supposedly it was one of the most expensive cars in the world at the time, looked like a fancy Toyota Corona).

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 14:43:05 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: slackandsteel
Subject: Interesting question- No answers? nt
Message:
s
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:17:54 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Interesting question- No answers? nt
Message:
Hi Hal
The only thing I remember about hansji's pre-guru life is that, at one time, he was a member of 'Arya Samaj'(sp?) which is an anti-guru organisation.
However this info is not the most reliable, as it came from a DLM(India) magazine. The same magazine also told how he was drowning in a river when a big hand came and fished him out and soon after he met his guru..blah..blah,,,bullshit..bullshit...etc...etc
Hmmmmm well it's good a way as any to become god.

All the best Jethro

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 07:41:49 (GMT)
From: Zelda PMS Dammit
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Would someone post legal forms for claiming
Message:
compensation for cult damage from the gawd awful jabba the hut.
I dont want to hear any objections or reasons why I cant just post the forms
Also might need some instructions on what to do with them sniffle
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 16:20:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Zelda PMS Dammit
Subject: huh?
Message:
What 'legal forms' are you talking about, Zelda? Do YOU know what you're talking about?
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 16:21:31 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: huh?
Message:
I understand her perfectly! Maybe Lori can explain it to you. :)
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 16:28:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Oh, I see. We're just emoting or something?
Message:
Sorry, I thought it was a real question.
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 16:52:32 (GMT)
From: Zelda PMS Hair-Not Combed
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh, I see. We're just emoting or something?
Message:
Jim Jim Jim- it is a real question out anguish with a twist of bitter lemon irony. If they can put a man on the moon why cant they just have a simple form for me to fill out to sue for damages dammit. A simple guru form for gawdsakes.
I am not asking you but the goddamuniverse.
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:21:27 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Zelda PMS Hair-Not Combed
Subject: You are absoulutely fabulous Zelda! LOL!!!! (OT)
Message:
Sorry for the delay getting back to you . . . long process to get everything operational and so many things are screaming for my attention.

That was a typo in the subject, but it whispered, 'Don't touch me!'

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:00:25 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Zelda PMS Hair-Not Combed
Subject: The guru form? Mais oui, just ask the French:
Message:
(from Guardian Unlimited)

CHURCH ATTACKS NEW FRENCH ANTI-CULT LAW

Jon Henley in Paris

Friday June 23, 2000

The French parliament yesterday adopted Europe's toughest
anti-sect legislation yet, creating a controversial new crime of
'mental manipulation' punishable by a maximum fine of £50,000
and five years imprisonment.

The move was applauded by Alain Vivien, head of a government
committee that has identified 173 dangerous quasi-religious
groups in France, but was denounced by both the Church of
Scientology and the Unification Church as fascist,
anti-democratic and in breach of basic human rights laws.

Current French law, described as 'inadequate to deal with
increasingly sophisticated and manipulative groups' by
Catherine Picard, one of the MPs who proposed the bill, allows
sect activities to be caught by prosecutions for traditional crimes
such as incitement to murder, sexual assault, fraud and the
abuse of a vulnerable individuals.

The new law allows judges to order the dissolution of any sect
whose members are convicted of a criminal offence. It also bans
sects from advertising
, and prohibits them from opening
missions or touting for new members near schools, hospitals or
retirement homes.

But the law's key weapon is the new crime of mental
manipulation, defined as 'exercising, within a group whose
activities are aimed at creating or exploiting psychological
dependence, heavy and repeated pressure on a person, or using
techniques likely to alter his judgment, so as to induce him to
behave in a way prejudicial to his interests'.

A justice ministry spokeswoman said the legal definition had
been prepared carefully to ensure that it could not be applied to
legitimate churches. But some Catholic leaders have expressed
reservations about the law, saying that may lead to
'over-zealousness and judicial excess', as well as
discrimination against genuine religions.

'This is a steep and slippery slope for democracy,' said Danièle
Gounord, a spokeswoman for the Scientologists, which is not
recognised as a religion in France. 'In western Europe, the only
regime so far to pass a law on mental manipulation was the
fascist government of Mussolini, in an attempt to get rid of the
communists'

(copyright Guardian Unlimited)

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:31:33 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Seriously cq and Zelda, this is very interesting..
Message:
Seriously cq and Zelda, this is very interesting and I'm a litle disappointed that there hasn't been more serious response to this yet. The denouncement by Scientology and Unification Churches is a good sign, but there is probably a fine line, taking into account such groups as the Virians. I would like to see the list of the '173 dangerous quasi-religious groups in France.'

Curious times we live in, n'est ce pas?

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:27:05 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Oui, les temps sont decidedly curious
Message:
... but Stonor, you must speak better French than me - how about you see if the French Forum has anything to say on this topic? (and a translation would be much appreciated!)
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:35:18 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Oui mon Capitain! (+link to cq's premiere at FF)
Message:
Hi cq (and Zelda, SB, Jean Michel . . . )

Really busy, so this will be brief. Jean-Michel has, of course, answered your questions about the 'form'. Apologies if I'm stating the obvious, but this new French law is a step in the right direction to try to protect people from mind-manipulating, life-twisting cults. Would you know, J-M, if this is the first country to pass such a law? I read about the Americans' attempt 20 to 25 years ago(?) to 'do something' about Moon in Moon Webs, and it's quite an ugly story.

One thing I did notice in the French version of the article about the new law is that the psychiatrists who worked on it requested anonymity for fear of reprisal from the cults.

Forum Francaise, Index Actif - see 'cq'

To follow the above seqence of posts, you must be able to understand a bit of anglais-casse, franzosisch, allemand and Spanish.(or not) Do check it out Zelda . . . is cq a knight in shining armor or what?! What more could a PMS sufferer ask for!;-) (Only in Durham you say? Pity!)

I think you wanted a bit of gossip, non, cq? Not much. A nice anology about the 'perfection' of Tiger Woods', the 'adoration of his fans', and his wealth, which he has at least earned, unlike another individual whose name begins with m.

And yes, they have a premie named Didier who is just like FV's dearly beloved O, Mili, gwh etc., but in a very French way, bien sur! (ok, not quite as bad, but . . .)

Take care, all!

Stonor

(PS to SB, you can get my email address from Katie - if she doesn't mind. If she does, I'll get it to you another way)

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:08:44 (GMT)
From: Zelxa
Email: None
To: Stonor SB cq
Subject: Oui mon Capitain! (+link to cq's premiere at FF)
Message:
Thanks Stonor

Would like to be in the info loop. Stonor has my email and I would appreciae a forward.

I am very intersted in if this french law pertains to cults oriiganating outside of France. If not we may need to canvas for exs in France and make a claim.
That is not a problem.

No offense but I need airtight security and for now would not want to be CCd but forwarded to instead.

I am sure cq and SB would understand if they have been cheking in to the fake ex Joeys recent antics. I cant bring myself to give out my email just yet.

feeling better now
Trixiish Zelda

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 23:27:56 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: cq Stonor and SB
Subject: Curiouser and curiouser
Message:
guess what. Today I opened my email address and youll never guess.
Unsolicted spam in FRENCH.
Ît has never happend before (inn French) and it was something about upgrading my something to do something re downloading I think.
It wasnt porn but a offer to link and download software or something like that

Velly slange

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:44:05 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Nah, Didier COULDN'T have your email address!
Message:
Hi Zelda,

Yeah, vellly stlange!

BTW, tested that text processing through my scanner last night - it will be a bit of a pain, but I will eventually get you that text, just not sure what the best way is yet. Very busy times here . . .

Talk to you soon,

Stonor

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:52:08 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Seriously cq and Zelda, this is very interesting..
Message:
Have anyone investigated about the US laws regarding mental manipulation? The Attorney General can clarify that...of course, but, anybody? hehehehe...
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 05:41:28 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: to Stonor cq and SB.
Message:
I agree Stonor, I think it is worthwhile looking into.
Maybe we could keep looking into this with minimal support. I must admit that I am surprised that so few have taken interest.
Any ideas?
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:23:27 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Ditto for you too cq! (nt)
Message:
Ditto for you too cq!
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:12:59 (GMT)
From: Zelda Hoping mais oue
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The guru form? Jim look at cqs post.
Message:
cq that is fabulous

Cant we try to get some copies of that and any suits that have been filed or will be filed??

God Bless France

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:25:12 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Zelda Hoping mais oue
Subject: The guru form? Jim look at cqs post.
Message:
And then I read this and you use that word too? I can't stand it. . . I've GOT to go back out to the garden . . .
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 23:27:17 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: The guru form? Jim look at cqs post. Stonor I...
Message:
You better tell me what word you mean or you will drive me to the garden.

I am guessing you mean 'form'?? I mean FORM not forum.
I want a form that we can fill out to make a complaint against Jabba.
You know- one where we fill in the blank spaces and it says to use another sheet of paper if the space isnt big enough. I have visions of a questionaire for the class action agaist his royal thighness. If they can put a man on the moon....

Gosh I hape thats what cq asked for ! :)

If you mean another word then tell me cause it is making my hair tangle.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:27:01 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: 'fabulous!' not 'form' (Jim don't look at this)0T
Message:
'fabulous!' not 'form' (which is really usually such a boring thing and word)

I'd NEVER want to make your hair tangle! That sounds a little kinky to me! But I'm such a straight-ass!

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:57:54 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: 'fabulous!' not 'form' (Jim don't look at this)0T
Message:
If 'my English' is allowing me to follow you, such a form is a kinky idea? I would fill one up...IT would take me days to explain it all, but I gladly would. THAT would be THE opportunity of my life!! Can you imaging if we could say it all in one time? Whow!
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 05:34:40 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: 'fabulous!' not 'form' (Jim don't look at this)0T
Message:
Hi SB

Well now that makes two of us that will fill out a form.
It is too bad that we cant do this as far as I am concerned.
I dont think it is such a dumb idea.

Thanks for the post
Zelda

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 13:16:12 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: 'fabulous!' not 'form' (Jim don't look at this)0T
Message:
Of course is not a dumb idea!! I'm asking similar questions since I began to come here!!

I lost so much for having found the Lord of The Universe...

I ridiculed myself and ruined dear friendships.
I tortured my mother and family in gral, for more than two decades.
It ruined my marriage and my son has grown without a father for 8 years and will definetly need theraphy. He says he hates God.
It ruined my finances(I have every single bill of all videos purchased and I have 450 of them at my home. I have pictures of every country the cult took me and passaports to prove those trips. Too many to count.
I have being in therapy for so long that I'm embarrassed to say it here. Same therapist all these years who knows the root of my problems very well: GMJ. Spent big bucks here...
I almost committed suicide. The lack of self-identity and the conflict of coping 'with the world' wasn 't a picnic being a dedicated premie, a 'clear' premie. There was no espace for me in it. Oh, I must stop!

What is the point to write now? To list all reasons would take me hours to write! Zelda we do have the right to do it!! Have you and Stonor posted your email addresses? I'm afraid of giving mine due to many unresoved BS that I probably shouldn't be discussing here...

Take care,

SB

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 15:04:59 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: 'fabulous!' not 'form' (Jim don't look at this)0T
Message:
SB

It is good to hear that you would take it seriously.
I have not posted my email here recently also due to some unresolved stuff which makes it necessary to protect my identity.

I can post a round-about alias. But how bout we see what Stonor has to say. We have exchanged emails.

I woudl like to see a conservative scouting trip into the possibility of taking action.

au revoir
Zelda

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Date: Thurs, Jun 29, 2000 at 08:09:48 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: 'fabulous!' not 'form' (Jim don't look at this)0T
Message:
I'm dead serious...not one day goes by...oh... I would like to have him by me: He would be surprised!

How can it be that he deceived us so good and he can get away with it? This is just the begining, right?

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:34:54 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Zelda Hoping mais oue
Subject: Je have posted un request sur l'autre Forum
Message:
Je have posted un request sur l'autre Forum:

Ain't I brave?

It goes:


Bon soir mes amis,

Pardon mon Franglais, mais je suis un Anglais sur vacances par Forum V (English).

Un 'thread' nouveau qui s'appelle 'Zelda PMS Dammit' est maintenant sur le Forum V, et Zelda cheche
l'infomation.

Parlez-vous Anglais un peu? Oui?

Au secours! Lisez-vous les posts de cq et Zelda - 'the guru form'.

Merci (et pardon ma French!)

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 10:02:18 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I've understood your English AND your French, but
Message:
not what you're actually requesting !

One part of that new law will enable French authorities to move against some cults that've been repeatedly condemned for various crimes (Namely $cientology, and a few others..)

Another part of the law will allow persons (or authorities) to complain/sue cults for manipulation.

Let's say some premies attend Yoram and Raja's meeting next sunday about how everything is beautiful about m and how they're invited to 'prepare' for his 'coming' etc and how everything is free and based on voluntary contributionse etc bla bla. And then they're also invited to other more private meetings at such and such place, where some premies are more factual on the real 'needs'. Of course these premies 'contribute' and donate to Mr Rawat, the EVF etc.

Then they'd entitled to complain on the basis of this new law.....

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:19:52 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: To Jean Michael (Cc: Stonor SB cq)
Message:
Based on what you describe as the Raj and Yoran meting scenario-
IS this law pertaining to France only.?
What I mean is that 'Can a person in France bring action against a cult that operates internationally?'

I guess that really wouldnt matter as long as the cult operates in France- right? It may mean that the complaint would need to be limited to French citizens being manipulated by the cult in France.
Do I have that right?

How many exs in France in France on the forum?

ZZZ

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 21:37:55 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: To Jean Michael (Cc: Stonor SB cq)
Message:
That new law will apply for French organizations only of course.

EV, for instance, is a French association in France, and could be moved against by premies.

It's very feasible ...... IF a group of premies want to move against EV.

I guess EV will adopt an even lower profile here ...... They're already scared so much. I wonder what Yoram and Raja are going to talk about and to whom!!!

As for the number of exes on the French forum: I don't know. Dozens of anonymous persons are reading it, and I'd say a dozen are posting from time to time. I know from good sources that premies talk about it ......

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:27:21 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: ROFL!!!! Not bad French either! (nt)
Message:
ROFL!!!! Not bad French either! (nt)
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:34:06 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Zelda Hoping mais oue
Subject: The guru form? Jim look at cqs post.
Message:
Cant we try to get some copies of that and any suits that have been filed or will be filed??

I doubt that'll be possible, Zelda. I wonder how many lawyers would want to fully expose their cases before they go to court.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 23:19:53 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Joey
Message:
Glad you are speaking to me- sorry for the mix up in the nether regions of the forum.

True - but the must start to take affidavits and stuff or have a preliminary generic process.

And to make a law dont they base it on a judgement already made- like 'Your honor, calling your attention to Jones Jones and Smith vs Rev sun young moon'- or something like that??

Somebody must have set a precedent.

Mind you this is gleaned form TV and one or two traffic tickets. But I do know there has been a big settlement for cult damage in New Zealand. There were Sexual misconduct and brainwashing and loss of quality of life claims and the cult members won.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:09:05 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Zelda
Message:
Thanks for clarifying what you meant.

Indeed there must be legal precedents, litigation involving cults where judgements are already in the book. If you know how to look for that info, I'm sure its available and a fair amount of it should even be on the net.

Zelda, if I may ask you for another clarification (and I really DO apologize to you as well for being so demanding, but..)
What do you mean by this?

...I do know there has been a big settlement for cult damage in New Zealand. There were Sexual misconduct and brainwashing and loss of quality of life claims and the cult members won.

Was it in fact cult members who won, or were they former cult members who won?

Or does that even make a difference to you? :)

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 01:49:14 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Joey you dirt rat
Message:
Of course it makes a difference to me what do a look like a flat screen?

It was the ex cult members that won.
Oh
now I see what your confusion was. I said cult members and YOU thought I meant cult members.

instead of EX cult members.

Easy to see how you were confused.

Hope that clears it up
:))

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:08:55 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Good night Zelda :::))
Message:
Yes Zelda, you have cleared things up.

And I thank you for this, and ALL the sparkling clarity that you've shared with us in this and other threads.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:01:54 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: To Zelda: :))) LOL (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 10:46:38 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Zelda PMS Dammit
Subject: PMS (ot)
Message:
Dear Zelda,
Yeah, PMS DAMMIT! Funny, I just posted on AG and mentioned that I am packing for a move in the heat and humidity (which I'll gladly deal with over cold and snow) but the thing that puts me over the top is that I have CRAMPS too! One week to go and so much to do there is no way it will all get done and I just want to lay in a fetal position and pampermyself until this goes away.
A friend mentioned a book, Raw Energy. It is a diet that I'm told, even if you do it for part of the month before hand these symptoms will be greatly reduced but here I am in the thick of it still waiting for that inter library loan! :)
Sorry can't help you with the forms but then you can't help me with the move either. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 16:58:50 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: PMS (ot)
Message:
Ya

Have a Hot water bottle in a fetal position with an Italian ice on me!
Must look the book up.
Where are you moving as per Jerrys below??

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 17:39:38 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: PMS (ot)
Message:
Dear Zelda,
I'm moving to a now empty hotel and when it is cleaned and ready to go, in about a year, maybe we'll have an ex retreat there! :) It makes the country home where I live now look like it's in town! Another echilan(sp) in the rural heirarchy! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:47:35 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: You're Not Doing a Sequel to The Shining, Are You?
Message:
Couldn't resist. I had a mental picture of you roaming the halls (or perhaps riding a tricycle?). Good luck on your move; I don't envy you that schlep job. :>)
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 04:47:43 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: You're Not Doing a Sequel to The Shining, Are You?
Message:
Dear Monmot,
God, I am SO glad I don't know anything about The Shining except the picture on the video and that it was SCARY which is to much for my mind right now. I am very much afraid of scary movies and wouldn't want to know the story and be afraid in the hotel by myself. Trying to freak me out are you!? :)
I am already trying to block any memory of your post from my mind! Really!
I am looking forward to making the hotel into a cozy and comfortable place and think I can do it. A labor of love. So if you come to the ex retreat... DON'T MENTION THE MOVIE! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 05:21:41 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: You're Not Doing a Sequel to The Shining, Are You?
Message:
Robyn:
I don't like scary movies myself...so my apologies for inserting that image. I swear I'll never mention it again. Think I could get the FA to erase my post? I've never seen Jaws and tried to watch it the other night, but I had to turn it off. I like the beach too much to watch that stuff.

Actually, what you're doing sounds like it'll be great fun and an interesting adventure to fix it up. An ex retreat sounds great as long as I don't have to meditate. :)

Image be gone...

Take care
M

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 06:43:12 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: You're Not Doing a Sequel to The Shining, Are You?
Message:
Dear Monmot,
Thanks dear. At an ex retreat you do what you like, that is the point, eh? :) Visit, laugh, swim, walk, this place is in god's country, beautiful.
I do still meditate but seem to be getting so much more from the Buddhist practices I've learned about recently although have had beautiful inner meditations with k.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:15:44 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: PMS (ot)
Message:
That sounds exciting and brave.
What a good idea to have a retreat.
What state is that ?
I think I am coming for some PMS therapy if you dont mind:)
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:50:46 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: PMS (ot)
Message:
Dear Zelda,
Sure, come on out! :) I live in Pennsylvania.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 23:31:00 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: PMS (ot)
Message:
Do yo keep the same email address?
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 14:30:27 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: PMS (ot)
Message:
Hi Robyn,

Where are you moving?

(sorry about the cramps)

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 02:16:47 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Everyone
Subject: techniques
Message:
Is it true the 4 techs were really put together in early '70s to bring to the west and not the same as M's dad used or his so-called master line did?
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 08:13:11 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: The 5 Names issue, and Rawat's value a a teacher
Message:
I suggest you read Sitaram's interview.

What Rawat calls 'holy name' is a part of what's being taught in the Radhasoami tradition as 'Sat Naam' and/or 5 Names. It looks like some gurus teach it differently, and the 'genuine' ones teach all of them.

According to the exsatsangis, it doesn't make much difference, and they have endless discussions on this issue. As most (or maybe only some) of the 1st mahatmas were also linked to the different Radhasoami groups, they used to initiate as they'd been taught.

Go to the ExSatsangi Support Group forums, and talk with them about it. Some are very reluctant talking about it, some are not.

Looks like for me that the DLM's officials decided to simplify the whole thing, and decided to teach it the simplest way. Some who've been inititated with the 5 names value them a lot, some say it doesn't matter....

Good luck.

The main point for me is that Rawat doesn't teach it properly. He can't because he's never been able do learn it properly and discuss the experiences you get in meditation with his own teacher for obvious reasons!

Means that if you really value the techniques and want to get more out of them, and be really 'guided' in your meditation experiences, go find another teacher !!!

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 13:01:37 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The 5 Names issue, and Rawat's value a a teacher
Message:
Means that if you really value the techniques and want to get more out of them, and be really 'guided' in your meditation experiences, go find another teacher !!!

What do you need a teacher for if all you want to do is meditate? Pick up a book on meditation and choose a technique that suits you, or modify the techniques so they will suit you. There really is no such thing as a meditation teacher. I mean, how long does it take to learn how to meditate, really? The big deal about a teacher, or guru, is to have someone to worship as God in the flesh, to devote every waking minute of your life to. That's the path of bhakti devotion. That's where Maharaji comes from, and that's what he's all about. If M had his way, he'd probably scrap the techniques, altogether, and have you just living a life of service and devotion. Too bad he's an alcoholic.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 14:43:04 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: techniques
Message:
Sam,
I have tried to study the origin of the techniques from various scriptures and historical data.

As far as I have been able to find out, the 'Nectar' technique is attributed to a hatha-yogi named Goraknath at ca. the 9th century. He is supposed to have invented it. The breath ('Holy Name') has a medieval yoga-upanishad devoted only to it (the 'Hamsa-upanishad'). All four techniques (among lots of others) are described in detail in practically all medieval (12th century onwards) yoga texts such as Gheranda Samhita, Hatha-Yoga Pradipika, Shiva Samhita, and Yoga-Kundalini Upanishad. The techniques are not described in, for instance, Patanjali's Yoga-sutras (from around 500 AD).

Definitely, these techniques are not 'ancient', but invented during the middle ages. And all are well-known in yoga circles. As far as I have been able to find out, the combination of 4 techniques stems from Hans Ji and the 60s - i.e. before M, but not long before him. Anyway, the 4-T package was definitely compiled AFTER Hans Ji was not selected as his own Radhasoami guru Sarupanand's successor, and decided to go on his own instead. Three of the techniques Hans Ji probably learned from Sarupanand, since they are in common use within the Radhasoamis, the fourth ('nectar') he probably picked up from some hatha-yoga teacher, exact source unknown.

This, I think, is a fair guess.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:20:35 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Happy, I'm impressed!
Message:
If that was all kosher stuff, I congratulate you. It certainly helps to demystify Knowledge.

Now why don't they teach all this history to the aspirants, I wonder:)

Do you have any links to sources re this on the www I can do my own research with - I feel a newspaper article coming on!

thanks

Rob

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 13:07:39 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: thanks
Message:
Thanks for the appreaciation. It should be kosher, as far as I know - one mistake dropped in, however. The dates for Patanjali's Yoga-Sutras should be ca. 200 AD, not 500 AD. There was a Patanjali living also around 500 BC, but scholars are pretty sure that around 200 AD is correct.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 07:24:40 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Happy, I'm impressed!
Message:
Hey, why don't you take a tour on the EV-DLM Papers ?

That's the whole purpose of that site.

And here is a few pages on this very issue,

http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/medtech.htm
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/biblio.htm
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/shabd.htm
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/SSM.htm
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/rad.htm

Have a good time reading this, but be careful, you might lose a lot of what you've been 'taught' by Mr Rawat....

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 14:28:57 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: A teacher's value
Message:
Jerry,

When I first came to this sight I was a firm believer in a guru/guide. Not because of what you say 'to worship',but because of my potentially very scary meditations.

There were times when I was 'going so fast' into regions unknown internally that I felt 'this is it - they're going to find my body.' That turned into not being so scary, because I could feel my 'guru's' presence and 'took his hand', so to speak, in total and complete trust. And continued on these amazingly concentrated meditations fearlessly and with total confidence.

I asked this question here early on -If you don't follow Maharaji then - then who do you tell people to follow? Paramahansa?

As you can see I was very serious,my experience being 'you need guidance'.

Now, I think one could 'believe' in or follow and trust the protection of say Christ or maybe even an angel or spirit guide
internally. If one asks for protection from 'God' himself when one begins a meditation - I feel that could be the way to go.

I find now the issue doesn't really come up since no one around me is meditating for three hours straight a day like in the old days - including myself.(Once our house meditated 6 hours.)

But, for my friend that got the techniques here - I've told her to ask for protection before she starts from whomever she wants.
She has never taken meditation very seriously,however.

Thought you may be interested,since you and I have talked about meditation before.
(Though,as I recall,I don't think you believe in 'God' - so you wouldn't in other entities either.Remember,I am not asking you to,either.)

Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:09:56 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: A teacher's value
Message:
Somewhen, out in the future, the part of god formerly known as Elaine is offering her hand ...
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 18:52:08 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: A teacher's value
Message:
The techniques are ancient. They originated in central asia and have been transmitted as a secret oral tradition. Protection during mediation can be obtain by calling on all that have gone before.. The hall of the awakened one's from all traditions.... They gather in hall of Shambhala. Our awakening is their greatest glory. They come.... they must.
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:10:15 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: You lost me there, gw
Message:
The hall of the awakened one's from all traditions.... They gather in hall of Shambhala. Our awakening is their greatest glory. They come.... they must.

This is embarrassing. I guess we are not talking about the same thing. Hall of Shambala, come on, what evidence do you have that such a thing exists?

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:36:45 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: awake102@hotmail.com
To: gerry
Subject: You lost me there, gw
Message:
In meditation the fear that arises is a sign that your moving in the right direction. To awaken one must face that fear. Guru hand holding is an impediment. If you need help call upon your own inner guru.

The hall of Shambhala is a 'skillful means' tool. At the end of the hall is a throne reserved for the naked Buddha. In the throne rest a mirror.... What is your original face?

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:44:58 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Are you saying
Message:
gwh,
that you've been to this hall and maybe even to this throne?

And yes, what exactly do you mean by 'skillful means tool' if you would be so kind.

Forget about the others,
Elaine

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 03:21:32 (GMT)
From: gwh
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Are you saying
Message:
The 'skillful means tool' provides support or structure... comfort. They are illusion and are given up upon awakening. Examples are prayer beads, offerings, alters, etc. They are not necessary. Some schools don't use them.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 01:29:55 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Elaine is so loving....NOT!!
Message:
gwh wrote:
In meditation the fear that arises is a sign that your moving in the right direction. To awaken one must face that fear. Guru hand holding is an impediment. If you need help call upon your own inner guru.
The hall of Shambhala is a 'skillful means' tool. At the end of the hall is a throne reserved for the naked Buddha. In the throne rest a mirror.... What is your original face?

Elaine responded:
gwh,
that you've been to this hall and maybe even to this throne?
And yes, what exactly do you mean by 'skillful means tool' if you would be so kind.

Forget about the others,
Elaine

Elaine,

Would you please explain what you ment by the bolded text?

Thanks,

Only one love,

SB

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:49:50 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Yes, forget about the others...
Message:
Just address that superior all knowing high spiritual bitch, Elaine.

See what I mean Elaine?

Ever hear of schizophrenia, Elaine. This cat has a real bad case. You, you're just a geeky new age bimbo with an overblown ego.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:23:56 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Yes, forget about the others...
Message:
gerry,
Yes, forget about being intimidated by the others - now - that makes me a superior bitch?

This thinking is new to me?
Something's distorting how you see simple sentences - what is it?--try not to be cute and witty and smug ---why, really, is it that all my sentences get twisted in your head to mean something that they are not?
Thank you.

Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 18:02:53 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Yes, forget about the others...
Message:
about meditation and awakening. The two have nothing to do with each other. All your efforting is for nil. That's why I said that Michael Clegg's book would be over your head. You would not understand it and you would resist it with the last ounce of your vitality. But that's your gig, so it's fine with me.

You are trapped in your beliefs. Stuck in this dead end of spiritual seeking, trying trying trying. I am saying give it up. It's the last hurdle.

Your posts just reek with this forced spirituality. It's hard to stomach and it's very unbecoming. Very typical of people in spiritual 'groups.' And yes it is a form of feeling superior. It's not really you. It's not really anyone.

I'm not angry with *you.* It's the facade I can't tolerate.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 01:57:47 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Gerry, correcto again...aha...
Message:
I know myself so well..I read her posts because close to 100% of the times she throws spades...she'll read this...let me do it...

To Elaine from SB

Elaine, what is this game you are playing? How far would you like to go? Do you like to be abused? We know who you are already. What about getting sincere with us? Why come here and sell your BS that you are such a good, openminded ,honorable, understanding person when you show the opposite. You enjoy displaying your dislike for us, exes, and is getting to be too much. You better get sincere and stop pretending that you are such a person and begin to get honest. If you continue your game you may stay here but it can get worse...Threat? NO!!! For what I have witnessed since I began participating on F5 people like you are not welcome, I don't, and eventually desappear because they cannot stand the heat.

Would you mind putting yourself in our places? How should we feel about you? Are you friendly? Trustwhorty? Honest? A good communicator? Do you have compassion for exes? Do we really care to discuss personalities in this forum and come here to make friends or is it that the main theme is Mahariachi and what WE exes felt and experience while involved, and what we lost, the dedicaded ones especially since the loss was bigger. Isn't time you begin to acknowledge all that? I'm begining to have weird feeling about you and even that it's true that you have your rights to say whatever, you are not welcome to display your superiority complex any longer. I'll fallow you...I'm not going anywhere. I love to defend myself, more, when I know I won already.

SB, not exactly an afraid or confused kind of person...today.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:28:33 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: well said, SB (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 19:55:26 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Forget meditation
Message:
It's not necessary. And there really isn't anything anyone can do to 'awake,' and indeed, awakening is not even important. It will happen to everyone at the moment of death. What's the hurry?

It sounds to me that you have merely bought into another belief system, like Knowledge and maharaji.

When you say 'thy will come, they must' to me it sounds like the same old separation illusion wrapped up in buddhist obscurities.

I don't understand 'skillful means.'

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:45:35 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Forget meditation
Message:
I finally found your statement that I said 'of course I can't comment on...'

Gerry, knowing anything about me how could I even comment on someone that thinks meditation isn't even necessary?
Or someone saying emphatically that awakening isn't important.

It goes against my very nature - I couldn't even comment - why... to convince you otherwise? What an arguement would ensue. You believe what you do and I do. It would be a waste of both our time.

But, if you want to go to that 'superior Elaine' BS - hey, go there.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:16:40 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: To Elaine: What is awakening? nt
Message:
SB
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 03:10:05 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: OK , sorry to be the one to give you the bad news
Message:
about meditation and awakening. The two have nothing to do with each other. All your efforting is for nil. That's why I said that Michael Clegg's book would be over your head. You would not understand it and you would resist it with the last ounce of your vitality. But that's your gig, so it's fine with me.

You are trapped in your beliefs. Stuck in this dead end of spiritual seeking, trying trying trying. I am saying give it up. It's the last hurdle.

Your posts just reek with this forced spirituality. It's hard to stomach and it's very unbecoming. Very typical of people in spiritual 'groups.' And yes it is a form of feeling superior. It's not really you. It's not really anyone.

I'm not angry with *you.* It's the facade I can't tolerate.

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:01:15 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Forget meditation but not medication: It can help
Message:
Gerry,

Are you believing this? It's fun, isn't? So obvious!!

;)

SB

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:06:35 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gwh
Subject: Forget meditation
Message:
Of course, I won't comment on the first part of gerry's post... but,'they will come,they must' sounds to me like when you call the Archangels.
Or any other guide for that matter - they come alright.
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:20:15 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Who are 'they'?
Message:
Elaine,

Do you think 'they' actually exist outside of your own head, I mean in an objective sense, like you or I?

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:25:24 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Who are 'they'?
Message:
I don't know about Shambahlla sp? guys...
but, if your asking about angels - oh gosh, yes.
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:07:43 (GMT)
From: Elaine's Mother
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Darling, didn't I tell you...
Message:
to watch your manners? Didn't I teach you to be a realistic person when your dad and I confesed there was no Santa Clauss? Didn't I teach you to be honest and tell the truth and use logic when necesary? You have put us down. I hope you correct your naughty behavior around here, otherwise, no more cake for you.

You mother

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 21:48:54 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Who are 'they'?
Message:
There is no-thing external to the self. It's all illusion .! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:29:38 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: The beetle in the box
Message:
Do you really believe that, Hal? Ever hear of Ludwig Wittgenstein's 'beetle in the box'? If what you're saying is true, it would be as if we each had a box that no one else could look into, and all started talking about the beetle in the box. We all might mean different things by it, or nothing at all.
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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 12:42:02 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The beetle in the box
Message:
Dear Jerry,

Don't take anything I say seriously. I don't know anything anymore. I think that cosmic stuff is just sort of like channelled through from a higher dimension , you know .

I really don't beleve in anything anymore, or perhaps I should say that I have no FIXED beliefs anymore. Life is beyond belief.

ABANDON ALL HOPE!!!

Best wishes to you
Hal

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Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 15:13:04 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: That's the ticket,Hal ( NT
Message:
om
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:08:14 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Oh, wise one, pls, help this deluded soul...
Message:
and shed your understanding on such a lowly one as myself.

What is meant by illusion and the self?
What is the hidden meaning in your merciful words to me?
If you could but expound a bit more for the growth of one as deluded as myself.

Alot of Kung Fu as a child.

Elaine,the student

Hi,Hal :)

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 14:06:34 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Oh, wise one, pls, help this deluded soul...
Message:
Dear seeker of God,

The time will come when you will look upon all your efforts to reach or seek anything and you will laugh. The time to laugh is now! HAHAHAHAHAHA

Blessings

HaHA HAL

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 16:57:10 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Oh, wise one, pls, help this deluded soul...
Message:
Hal,
Prayer for me, brother, that it happens soon.

Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 17:46:06 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com
To: Elaine
Subject: Be sure and wear flowers in your hair...
Message:
You can live on my Island anytime, the sunsets are gorgeous.
And grrr can bully somebody else
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:11:26 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Oh, wise one, pls, help this deluded soul...
Message:
Student? I thought you said you knew so much... A while a go I remember you saying that you were an expert in the Grace subject. Aren't angels related? Just asking.

SB, open to hear anything from now on, but smiling.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:10:19 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: You're a snotty bitch aren't you Elaine
Message:
You are one of the most arrogant ignoramuses on the face of the planet.
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:35:07 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Why on Earth would you think that?
Message:
I re-read my post.. and I can't for the life of me think what would make you say that?

Tell me, tell me how your thinking runs. I'm not you and just don't know. We have such different backgrounds. But, can you tell me without emotion and just explain.I'm not asking to be told off here, which gets old - just why did you think that.

Take your time even -if that's what it takes to not ans angrily.

I don't know why you would say arrogant.I don't know why you would say ignoramus. And I certainly don't know why you'd say 'most'.

But, I am remembering that was why I had to stop reading your posts for awhile - you got so intense with me.

Thank you,
Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:15:23 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Why on Earth would you think that? I'll tell you.
Message:
Keep making yourself innocent and silly stupid. Don't buy that. You are going to talk in a short while only to yourself or to the premie plants...A prediction. Next? You'll split.

SB, who has strange powers too.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:48:34 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Why on Earth would you think that?
Message:
You can't see yourself, can you?
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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 23:58:21 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Why on Earth would you think that?
Message:
gerry,
Thank you for asking...no...see in writing you don't even know I'm sincere. I can only guess and then, if I want to drive myself crazy, I could guess a few MORE things - that's what I call a waste of time -not mentally healthy - and a game.

I don't know you or your background. Why certain things offend you are beyond me -as what offends me is beyond you. I can only think you deliberately want to hurt me -and I don't know why.

The other thing I am hoping for is there is misunderstanding and when we explain ourselves we then can see each others point of view - including how we both intended something we wrote.

I'm not into conflict - you must have noticed.

It happens here - I think it can be resolved - but, it takes two people -and a calming of emotions.

I am ok with agreeing to disagree - others here are outraged if another opinion comes out - it seems.

Correct me if I'm wrong - but, that is how I see it.

Elaine

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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 00:45:54 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: why are you here, Elaine?
Message:
Really, I'm curious. Why are you here?

I can tell you specifically what pissed me off today and what irritates me about you in general.

In general it's your goody two shoes, superior attitude which just oozes out in your posts.

And today, your dismissiveness in saying Of course, I won't comment on the first part of gerry's post...

Oh yes, *of course* my comment was so far beneath you, it was totally unworthy your laser sharp intellect.

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Date: Mon, Jun 26, 2000 at 20:22:47 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: gerry
Subject: You're a snotty bitch aren't you Elaine
Message:
Touched a nerve, huh, Ger?
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Date: Tues, Jun 27, 2000 at 02:19:46 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Well, Mili...
Message:
I least he has one. Zombies are in the cero state? Sleeping. Did you know?

Only one love and one understanding: Logic rules!!

SB, who would like to see them awake to freedom.

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