Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 22:07:26 (GMT)
From: Jul 07, 2000 To: Jul 17, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Ebay alert -:- Who is Guru Maharaj Ji!!! -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:34:04 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Shit and I threw away -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:02:30 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- I bid 10.00 -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:47:13 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- Okay, I get first dibs after you're done -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:09:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Sure, if I get it...... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:12:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- You've got to get that book! -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 21:11:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- You've got to get that book! -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:54:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sb -:- Where are the other two and why did you buy them? -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:59:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, I do have a SECOND copy -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 21:20:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Sure, if I get it...... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 11:16:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I'm Pretty Sure I Have Hans Yog Prakash nt -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:18:41 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Fucking Kurt Anderson still has mine -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:52:00 (GMT)

Rob -:- New question for premies -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:18:17 (GMT)
__ Harry -:- An Oldie for Rob -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:05:16 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- A suggestion for Harry -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 07:05:22 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Snap out of it, Harry -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 07:28:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Harry -:- Snap out of it, Harry -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 10:13:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ignoramus -:- Hi brother Herry! (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 23:13:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Grrrrr, what's next, Harry? Move on? Get a life? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:27:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Hey El Wacko............. -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 23:35:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- gerry -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 20:57:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Well said Gerry -Thanks NT -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 20:04:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- To Harry -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 17:29:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- My boomerang won't come back. -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 23:51:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- My boomerang won't come back. -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 05:21:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- To Harry,huh? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 21:01:46 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- Responsibility? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:37:22 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- I can't resist -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:23:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Harry -:- Harry's 'stupid is as stupid does' Practice. -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 10:04:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Harry's 'stupid is as stupid does' Practice. -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:50:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bazza -:- Harry's 'stupid is as stupid does' Practice. -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 18:32:51 (GMT)

Forum Admin -:- JamesC and Bjorn -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:39:02 (GMT)
__ Bjørn -:- Lies about me -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 10:10:05 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Not here but elsewhere, Bjørn -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 18:03:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- recentexes@yahoo.com? (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 18:07:38 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- I think this question of lies about Bjorn (FA?) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 13:26:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- I think this question of lies about Bjorn (FA?) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:09:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- I think this question of lies about Bjorn (FA?) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:26:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- I think this question of lies about Bjorn (FA?) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:37:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Stonor, Nigel and Katie -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:00:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Bjorn -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:31:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Stonor, Nigel and Katie -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:26:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- I think this question of lies about Bjorn (FA?) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:55:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I think this question of lies about Bjorn (FA?) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:41:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- To Gerry, Nigel and Marianne -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 16:40:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes, and, what do you want? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 16:47:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Yes, and, what do I want? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 18:16:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Good Bjorn. -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 18:46:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Fuck you both. -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 19:56:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- I agree with gerry -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 20:32:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Iaccept/respect yors 'n gerry's feelings, Marianne -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 20:58:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- FA's? Why is he still here? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 17:15:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- FA's? Why is he still here? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 20:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- FA's? Why is he still here? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 23:13:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Bjorn / Fairplay - mistaken identity..? -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 12:28:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Bjorn is naughty: He says we want to nail M??? -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:02:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I remember Bjo block. Kept forgetting to add. (NT) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 21:03:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes Gerry and Katie and Nigel and Marianne and FA -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 16:28:02 (GMT)
__ Know It All -:- JamesC and Bjorn -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:24:34 (GMT)
__ __ Charlie -:- JamesC and Bjorn -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:36:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Know It All -:- Bjorn -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 23:26:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ VP -:- To KIA -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 22:59:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Hello VP -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 01:09:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Hello VP -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 01:11:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- See how easy it is to do? -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 01:20:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- 'Just Curious' is Bjorn (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 01:42:18 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Thanks and... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:53:09 (GMT)

Jim -:- A small insight -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:09:27 (GMT)
__ Charlie -:- A small insight -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 10:37:04 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- A small insight -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 08:30:12 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- A small insight -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 18:47:54 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Very well said, Jim, I like this side of you...::) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:33:59 (GMT)
__ __ DV -:- I miss some of my old premie buddies too. -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:18:11 (GMT)
__ Lotus Eater -:- A small insight -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:34:36 (GMT)
__ X -:- A small insight -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:20:25 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- You miss the point, X -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:19:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ O -:- My insights -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:16:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're stuck in a new-age loop of stupidity -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 21:13:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ O -:- Actually I'm stuck in old-age senility -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 22:49:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Do you still think he is God? -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 23:55:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Why not admit what's so painfully obvious, O? -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 17:53:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- JIm, it is OP..(nt) -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 05:35:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Where do you get that from, Bill? (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 19:32:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I'm waiting for you to acknowledge my post bellow -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 22:59:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- My poetry... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 07:30:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ In ARTI premie Ji -:- My insights -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:53:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- My insights -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:19:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Could anyone type out the words to Arti? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:21:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Arti is on the site, Hal -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:29:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Thanks Katie NT -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 19:54:47 (GMT)
__ Paul -:- A small insight -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 17:59:05 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- and now the non-messianic EV blames DLM's converts -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:36:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir David -:- It's rotten to the core -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:56:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- strange how 'not God' Maha had a Holy Family (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:42:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- **** Hey Rog**** -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:10:23 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Well said -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 17:34:03 (GMT)

tonette -:- wondering id site is locked yet nt -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 14:42:36 (GMT)

Jim -:- Bhole Ji speaks out! -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:38:14 (GMT)
__ bill -:- what the hell is spiritual capital?-(nt) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 11:20:42 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Bhole Ji speaks out! -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 13:25:55 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Lil' Bro could use his PR machine though... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 06:19:40 (GMT)

Lois Lane -:- Report on US event(s) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:56:20 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Report on US event(s) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:59:59 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Magical Thinking still alive and well... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:17:12 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Report on US event(s) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:35:05 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- True story about rawat and swings -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 11:41:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- We were asked to meditate that day! -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 01:53:29 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Thank you, Lois - great post (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 14:11:56 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Report on US event(s) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 12:32:16 (GMT)
__ __ X -:- Report on US event(s) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:29:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Report on X's brain -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:40:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Report on US event(s) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 00:48:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I read your post AFTER my own, Dave (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:44:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Post Script -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 00:52:05 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- Judging M...hmmmm -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 11:49:33 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Judging M...hmmmm -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:56:47 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Marolyn's the wife, Monica the ALLEGED mistress (n -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:49:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ jondon -:- Monica the ALLEGED mistress -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:03:42 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Your report added to the website, thank you!!! -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 08:39:49 (GMT)
__ TD -:- Thanks Lois! What's the smartcard for? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:18:25 (GMT)
__ __ Where are the tecniques?? -:- I couldn't find them. JM? -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:33:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- The techniques are on ex-premie.org -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:07:29 (GMT)
__ __ Lois Lane -:- Thanks Lois! What's the smartcard for? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:44:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks Lois! What's the smartcard for? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 23:20:18 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- smartcard? 30 dollars in someone's pocket? (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:24:38 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Indian giver -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:01:44 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Indian giver -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:23:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Indian giver -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 11:48:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rob -:- Promises, promises -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:46:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good points, all of them, Rob -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 02:23:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Nice post, Rob -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:52:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Back where I belong -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:11:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Back where I belong -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 13:56:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- Maharaji and Knowledge--confusing -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 00:52:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Maharaji and Knowledge--confusing -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 04:12:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Back where I belong -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 23:10:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Amigo -:- Hola SB, quien eres...? -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:22:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SBN -:- Hola SB, quien eres...? -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:52:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- The post above is mine...SBN? mistake. (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:14:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lurkex -:- Back where I belong -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:17:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Back in time -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:03:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ LURKEX -:- Back in time -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 19:32:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- if someone were to 'take over' from m-go 4 it!(nt) -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:25:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- I'm not volunteering for the job....... -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:32:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I'm not volunteering for the job....... -:- Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:00:15 (GMT)
__ __ GErrrrry -:- Patton Pending??? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:23:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rob -:- Patton Pending??? -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:28:00 (GMT)
__ bill -:- I do judge you rawat. 2 thumbs down -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 04:25:09 (GMT)
__ __ Politically Incorrectman -:- I do judge you rawat. 2 thumbs down -:- Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 13:09:01 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:34:04 (GMT)
From: Ebay alert
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Who is Guru Maharaj Ji!!!
Message:
going going gone

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:02:30 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Ebay alert
Subject: Shit and I threw away
Message:
all my old Divine Times! What A hoot this is! It would be worth having the book just to use quotes from it here!
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:47:13 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Ebay alert
Subject: I bid 10.00
Message:
I will share the Who is GMJ book with anyone who wants it.
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:09:29 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Okay, I get first dibs after you're done
Message:
Of course, I should check the box of DLM stuff I have stashed. Almost threw it all out when I was clearing out my mother's house after she died. But the book hog kicked in and, praise Allah, I kept it. Have some Shri Hans stuff etc.

Nonetheless, first dibs. (And I am no Kurt Anderson.)

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:12:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Sure, if I get it......
Message:
By the way, it would be great to check you stash and see what you have. It might be very interesting to look at for historical purposes, for a good laugh, but with a little angst that we could have ever been that gullible to believe that crap.
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 21:11:22 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Joe
Subject: You've got to get that book!
Message:
Joe, we need that book! We need to make excerpts available online.

Watch out for old Mr. CD as he likes to try to protect Maharaji by outbidding everybody to keep that stuff away from us.

Do whatever you've got to do, Joe. I'll kick in the $$$ too if need be.

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:54:35 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek/Joe
Subject: You've got to get that book!
Message:
BTW, I picked up three WIGM books in the last 2 months at local used books stores -probably for under $3 each. I just felt they were collectible.I offered one to Jim last month.
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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:59:09 (GMT)
From: Sb
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Where are the other two and why did you buy them?
Message:
I know the answer...
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 21:20:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Hey, I do have a SECOND copy
Message:
Someone, maybe Deena, sent me another. What do you want from it?
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 11:16:36 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sure, if I get it......
Message:
forget my past, what is your address.
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:18:41 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'm Pretty Sure I Have Hans Yog Prakash nt
Message:
mm
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:52:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Fucking Kurt Anderson still has mine
Message:
That's the last time I ever lend an valuable artifact to a New Yorker writer who's doing a soft piece on Maharaji because he's afraid of alienating his brother and sister still in the cult, an article the magazine never ran anyway, such is the grace. The LAST time, believe me.
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:18:17 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New question for premies
Message:
Inspired by Elaine in an almost gone thread (VPs questions)

Dear Premies,

If you think the Knowledge is so wonderful and would benefit people you know, why don't you simply show them the techniques?

I mean, realistically, what did you learn in your aspirant preparation months which made sticking your thumbs in your ears, etc any easier to accomplish?

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:05:16 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: An Oldie for Rob
Message:
Hey Rob, I'd like to hark back to the old 'R' word..responsibility. I know this is an oldie, but anyway. M may be an arsehole as you say, but if so, he's following a long line of arseholes that goes back centuries. Nobody put a gun to your head and made you sign up, so where, if at all, does some sort of personal responsibility and accountability take place?
Harry
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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 07:05:22 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: A suggestion for Harry
Message:
Harry was never a Premie.

Hey Harry, have you read the 'Journeys' section of this site?

Least you could do, eh?

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 07:28:31 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Snap out of it, Harry
Message:
Nobody put a gun to your head and made you sign up, so where, if at all, does some sort of personal responsibility and accountability take place?

You don't owe a thing to M, Harry. It was a dumb vow we were forced to take. And yes, we were forced. We couldn't receive Knowledge without it. Here we were with appetites whetted for the most profound and beautiful experience (supposedly) that a human being could have, told that receiving and 'realizing' K was the purpose of our lives, and all we had to do was dedicate our lives for it, and vow never to reveal the secret. It was all a scam, Jocko. You owe nothing to the joker who scammed you. Nothing. It's just part of good old fashioned cult programming that makes you think you do. If any responsibility is in order, it's to yourself to wake up and realize that your head has just been fucked with.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 10:13:42 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Snap out of it, Harry
Message:
You reckon your head's been fucked with Jerry. For that to happen, you had to give over your head to be fucked. It's like a guy complaining about a nagging wife. She only nags because he allows her too.
MY guru of the seventies, the late Tim Leary, said that to burn a $100 note would set me free. I only had a $5 note, and I burnt the fucker' and it felt great. Now it just seems silly. All part of the journey mate.
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 23:13:40 (GMT)
From: Ignoramus
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Hi brother Herry! (nt)
Message:
SB
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:27:40 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Grrrrr, what's next, Harry? Move on? Get a life?
Message:

First of all, Leary wasn't a guru. Five bucks, big deal. You got off why cheap. People here dedicated DECADES to this rawrat motherfucker. Gave up family, careers, educations, trust funds. Your flippant dismissal of this is disgusting and revealing.

You really do hold the people here in contempt, don't you Harry. Oh yes, you really got it together, you have it all figured out and are so superior to all these whiny wankers here, right?

It's like a guy complaining about a nagging wife. She only nags because he allows her too.

You're really beginning to piss me off with your new fucking age 'responsibility' theory. What a naive asshole you are, 'Harry.' It was brainwashing, mind control for profit.

What are you doing here anyway, Mick? You never were a premie and then you come here, sanctimonious jerk that you are and try to tell the victims of the cult how it is, or was. You're continuing the abuse, you're rubbing peoples' nose in it.

'Oh you allowed it to happen, it's your fault, we all make mistakes' philosophy doesn't apply here. And I'm starting to hate your guts. Why don't you get lost you fucking prick. It's none of your fucking business anyway.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 23:35:36 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hey El Wacko.............
Message:
You're an idiot.
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 20:57:47 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: gerry
Message:
Thank you, gerry, for not talking that way to me anymore.
Whew, brought back memories. You may not like me here - but, you're not as harsh anymore - don't think I haven't noticed.
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 20:04:13 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Well said Gerry -Thanks NT
Message:
He's right Harry. You can't really know from the outside.
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 17:29:34 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: To Harry
Message:
Harry,

I don't think I could have said it better when Gerry said this:

What are you doing here anyway, Mick? You never were a premie and then you come here, sanctimonious jerk that you are and try to tell the victims of the cult how it is, or was.

You're telling me about MY life and how it was, when you weren't even there. Ballsy, mate. You ougtta look into that. In fact, let's talk about that. I had forgotten you were never in the cult. What's in it for you to analyze those who were?

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 23:51:05 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: My boomerang won't come back.
Message:
>>>>>>>>.You're telling me about MY life and how it was, when you weren't even there. Ballsy, mate. You ougtta look into that. In fact, let's talk about that. I had forgotten you were never in the cult. What's in it for you to analyze those who were?<<<<<<<<<

But I was there mate. A whole fucking generation was there. Remember? Remember Vietnam, Black power, gay power, women power, gurus, drugs, bliss, etc. Remember the protests, the energy of the seventies. Trying to make the world a better place, rebelling against the conservatism of our parents. Then there was the other side. The ones who lost their way, to the needle, the suicides, the disillusionment, the lives that were destroyed. I was there Jerry, up to my ears.

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 05:21:26 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: My boomerang won't come back.
Message:
You weren't in Maharaji's cult. That's what I'm talking about. If you think you've got something to say about THAT, being in Maharaji's cult, because we're of the same generation, I think you're kidding yourself. Just because you were there in the seventies, doesn't mean you were there in the cult. What do you take me for, if you think I'm going to buy that kind of argument? Sheesh.
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 21:01:46 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: To Harry,huh?
Message:
Harry was never a premie or in the cult or rec'd k then? If that's true what is he doing here - maybe his wife is a premie or friends?
This is news to me!!
And, yet, though I ask - I really don't care all at the same time -no wonder people don't like me.

Elaine

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:37:22 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Responsibility?
Message:
I have a definate MORAL responsibility to do my part in exposing Maharaji as the fraud he is! The man has done a whole mess of really, really AWFUL things. So if I should show these techniques to a friend as a meditation that might be useful to them so what? I'm still checking but the great lightening bolt hasn't thundered down from the sky yet and wiped me from the face of the earth. BTY, does Maharaji know the meaning of the word responsibility? When he asked that we dedicate our lives to him, surrender, devote, blah,blah,blah that sounds like some heavy duty responsibility he took on and never had the least intention of fulfilling. As soon as he sucked just about everything he could from us he changed the agenda.
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:23:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: I can't resist
Message:
Your post, Harry, is so fucking stupid I jsut had to say something.

If a quack persuades you that you're dying of some rare disease the cure for which he alone knows, has and will sell you (lucky you) and you take his snake oil and die is it your responsibility? Come on, Harry, what's the answer? Fast!

Okay, the answer is: it depends. There's a whole spectrum of responsibility allocation, all the way from he's entirely responsible and you're blameless to the opposite. In between, you've got your many gradations of shared responsibility. Get it?

In Maharaji's case, we were all responsible to the extent that it was stupid, naive and gullible of us to not ask more questions and accept Maharaji's 'Leave no room for doubt in your mind' program. That was the whole problem for us. Once we fell for that siren song we were caught in a trap that still holds many. To that extent we were responsible.

Now aht about Maharaji's responsibility? He was the fraud artist that duped us and started off by seducing us into disarming our own bullshit detectors. He is completely responsible for that. He was a perpetrator of fraud, we were but his victims. If you don't understand that then I truly wish that one day you or someone you care about is fleeced of everything but some con artist. It'll serve you right.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 10:04:33 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Harry's 'stupid is as stupid does' Practice.
Message:
Loved your story about the quack. Reminds me of a duck I used to have. The thing is though Jim, that M probably believed in what he was teaching way back when, and probably still does, so no one set out to 'dupe' you. After all, he was born into the guru business. So any responsibility for you getting involved with him, rests squarely on your shoulders. There is no shared responsibility.
My turn for a little story. I just had some Sticky Date Pudding, and it was delicous. The thing about Sticky Date Pudding though, is that it's really rich and sweet and some people don't like it. That doesn't mean it's no good, it just don't work for some people. Get where I'm goin'?
Everyone makes stupid mistakes when we're young. We experiment, find out what works for us and what doesn't. It's a big part of growing up. When it doesn't work for us anymore, we move on.
Is it some sort of justice you're after? Maybe we should get things in perspective a bit. There's women and children in Siera Leone who are getting their hands cut off by the rebel forces, and there's people in third world countries selling their kidneys to feed their families. The world's a tough place, and if you want to do something to help, why not become a vegetarian, sponser a child in a poor country, give your wife a hug, run over a cat. There's heaps needs doing.
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:50:57 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Harry's 'stupid is as stupid does' Practice.
Message:
Harry, when you say

'M probably believed in what he was teaching way back when, and probably still does' I wonder why you seem so keen to give him the benefit of the doubt.

The point is, what he taught back them (not just about himself - but the actual techniques too) and what he teaches now are two VERY different animals.

(PS you should try the Sticky Toffee Pudding that Co. Durham (UK) is renowned for)

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 18:32:51 (GMT)
From: bazza
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Harry's 'stupid is as stupid does' Practice.
Message:
Harry's right.
We were conned by the best con man there is i.e. one who believes in his own con.

Greetings from
Bazza from the Union of Mugs and Losers

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:39:02 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: JamesC and Bjorn
Message:
I have just removed a new thread from 'JamesC' which suggested a person's name as being the identity of 'SB'. You are reminded that any posts purporting to 'out' another forum member will be deleted. Persistent offenders will be blocked.

Also, lower down, I have told Bim/Bjorn/Curious/Fairplay he is no longer welcome on the forum. The constantly changing aliases were one thing, but the last straw was his posting under another person's name (Know It All). There are very few forum guidelines for behaviour but Bjorn seems to have gone out of his way to ignore them.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 10:10:05 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Lies about me
Message:
I have never posted as James C, nor Fairplay nor Know it all. As I explained in email to FA I took on different aliases because I was accused of having interest in younger girls. Such statements are absolutely false, in fact I was much more severely abused sexually as a 10 year old kid than both Susan and Abi. I hope people can understand why these accusations made me depressed, and I also corresponded about this with Susan by email. In consideration about how painful this has been to me, I have taken steps to get neccesary help to overcome the remebrance of the suffering I had because of the sexual abuse I was a victim of as a kid.
I am deeply shocked by the meanness and the dishonesty some people here at the Forum have exposed.
I regret ever to have posted on the Forum. I get the point that I am not welcome and I will take actions accordingly.
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 18:03:02 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Bjørn
Subject: Not here but elsewhere, Bjørn
Message:
Bjørn; there's always the desert of The ANYTHING GOES Forum which you are welcome to post on.

I am thinking of getting another old forum of mine, password protecting it and then letting people use that to air their personal problems on if they feel so inclined. It would only be read by the few password holders and would be a conducive atmosphere to assist people.

Anyone; what ever happened to that passoword protected recent exes forum, by the way?

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 18:07:38 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: recentexes@yahoo.com? (nt)
Message:
recentexes@yahoo.com? (nt)
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 13:26:21 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: I think this question of lies about Bjorn (FA?)
Message:
I think this question of lies about Bjorn should be resolved once and for all. I find it upsetting to read accusations of possible child abuse, but would find it even more upsetting if what I have heard Bjorn consistently post about this is true, and these accusations are false. Is this not a case of possible libel?

I also believe that this issue needs to be resolved before Bjorn's posts can be fairly judged.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:09:45 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Stonor
Subject: I think this question of lies about Bjorn (FA?)
Message:
Hi Stonor,

Nobody on the forum would be (or is!) remotely interested in Bjorn's sexual inclinations, were it not for information he volunteered in the first place. He wrote something to the effect of having had sexual feelings towards a five-year-old, when he himself was a teenager. What many here found distasteful was the context, as he appeared to be offering some sort of mitigation for Jagdeo (along the lines of: well sexual desires for children are not that unsual, or something..)

Gerry then started referring to him as being a paedophile, which - however upsetting for Bjorn - would have blown over in a couple of days. This must have been between six months and a year ago. On each of his subsequent returns under new aliases, it was Bjorn himself who would choose to bring up the subject of paedophilia and the earlier allegations, merely inviting the whole thing to start all over again.

'Just Curious's' grilling of Susan a couple of weeks ago was intrusive and insensitive in the extreme, and I for one won't be sorry to see the back of him.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:26:07 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I think this question of lies about Bjorn (FA?)
Message:
Although I disagree with Bjorn about many things, and his treatment of Susan made me very angry, I don't think he should ever have been called a pedophile. There is a big difference between having sexual feelings (especially during puberty!) and acting on them. People have all kinds of inappropriate sexual feelings - most people do not act on them.

Yes I agree that the context in which Bjorn revealed his sexual feelings was inappropriate (defense for Jagdeo). Still, that doesn't make him fair game for attack in this manner.

Bjorn himself has said he is dealing with issues relating to his own sexual abuse as a child. I do not think the forum is a good place for him to work this out - as I sometimes feel he is doing - and he has said this himself. I feel like he's projecting his own feelings on the Jagdeo issue, and subjecting Susan and others, not to mention himself, to a lot of unpleasantness. Bjorn, if you are reading this, please try and get help elsewhere. You have said several times that posting on the forum has been a bad experience for you and that you are leaving, so please take your own advice. I don't think it's good for you to post here either.

Take care -
Katie

P.S. Bjorn, I am NOT the Katie that you used to know, in case you are wondering.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:37:29 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Katie
Subject: I think this question of lies about Bjorn (FA?)
Message:
Hi Katie,

Agreed. And in case it wasn't obvious, I never called Bjorn a paedophile and wouldn't endorse anyone doing so. But I think it has to be said that it is largely he who makes his personal problems and memories the focus of the forum which, as you said, is certainly not the best place to be doing it - especially since this is an exes forum and Bjorn is not an ex.

And the other important distinction between Bjorn's experiences and those of Jagdeo's victims is that the latter happened in the context of Maharaji's cult - the former have no bearing on anything happening here.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:00:21 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Stonor, Nigel and Katie
Message:
Stonor
Thanks for your post. At least it gives me the hope that there at least is one decent person among the Ex-premie group. And you are right this is a libel case. But even if I have an business laywer in New Jersey, how on earth could I manage to go through a libel case not only as a foreigner, but also as a victim. I dont think it would be very health for me
Re. Nigel
I do not know why you are lying. I changed aliases because one person everytime he exposed in my alias, accused me by my name to be pedowhile. I also wrote in the first place that Jagdeo should have been imprisoned due to his crimes. I also remind you about my email to you re a question you asked me here in the Forum I then explained about being a victim. I think no one else than a victim will ever understand how it is. I also explained about how it is harmful for the victims to bring this things to the surface. In an email from Susan to me she confirmed my belief in this matter.
I never drilled Susan about Jagdeo, but I did so to Anth. It was not my intention to bring her into the discussion, and I apologized to her. I wanted to know how severe she and Abi were abused - this urge to know had implications to my relationship to Maharaji.
Re Katie.
I know you are not the person I used to know. I suppose the reason for me to post here, which started about 7 months ago, partly because I was very uspet about the allogations and partly because I am grateful towards Maharaji. I am a honest person and every word I have written here have been true. I have the right as a human being to protect my reputation, so this is not an act for me to try to 'heal' myself here, even if it is very painful.
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:31:11 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Bjørn
Subject: Bjorn
Message:
I do not know why you are lying.

I am not lying.

I changed aliases because one person everytime he exposed in my alias, accused me by my name to be pedowhile.

Sounds like you must have given away your identity by the content of your posts, otherwise nobody would have known who you were.

I also wrote in the first place that Jagdeo should have been imprisoned due to his crimes. I also remind you about my email to you re a question you asked me here in the Forum I then explained about being a victim. I think no one else than a victim will ever understand how it is. I also explained about how it is harmful for the victims to bring this things to the surface. In an email from Susan to me she confirmed my belief in this matter.
I never drilled Susan about Jagdeo, but I did so to Anth. It was not my intention to bring her into the discussion, and I apologized to her. I wanted to know how severe she and Abi were abused - this urge to know had implications to my relationship to Maharaji.

I seem to remember you were asking about Jagdeo's abuse in minute detail - greater than Susan had volunteered in her Journey. I don't care what your reasons or justifications might be, to do this on a public forum with the victims present is very insensitive - especially when you are an anonymous visitor.

(And of course 'you were bringing [Susan] into the discussion'.)

The reason I didn't reply to your email was because I do not discuss forum issues with premies via email. Maharaji and Jagdeo are public figures who I prefer to discuss in public or not at all.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:26:02 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Stonor, Nigel and Katie
Message:
Bjorn -
I never said that you were telling lies, for one thing. I also think that you do not realize how severe Abi's abuse was - so severe that she 'split' her personality and blocked the memories in order to try and escape it. And she was only seven years old! And I do not think you can measure the extent of the effect of sexual abuse!

Also, I am not sure if it is harmful for the victims of sexual abuse to 'bring things to the surface', although I don't think the forum is the place to start doing this. If the abuse is never brought to the surface, then it can affect the victim's life in many negative ways - particularly in the ability to have intimate relationships - because it's still IN there. I know this by personal experience.

I hope you are able to resolve your own abuse issues in whatever way is best for you. But, honestly, I do not think posting on the ex-premie forum is going to bring you any satisfaction in any way.

Sincerely,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:55:08 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I think this question of lies about Bjorn (FA?)
Message:
I have absolutely no sympathy for this guy.
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:41:27 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: I think this question of lies about Bjorn (FA?)
Message:
I question everything this guy says. I've caught him in several lies or at least, glaring contradictions. The most obvious was when he reduced his age when have the 'sexual feelings for a five year old' from age fifteen down to thirteen.

I don't care, raging hormones or not, puberty disruptions or not, being sexually infatuated with a five year old girl is weird. Creepy. Especially when the topic IS pedophilia. Not the kind of admission that engenders trust and affection.

Not that Bjorn is here for support. No, he continues to live the lie, defend Maharaji, and root around for any detail he can about Jagdeo.

Later he comes out with the story of HIS sexual abuse. I don't know. How could I know. It seems awfully convenient, though. I wouldn't put it past him to contrive the whole thing. I find his constant dwelling on Jagdeo suspect. He wants details, who did what and how. IT'S NONE OF HIS FUCKING BUSINESS !!!

HE'S THE ENEMY!!! HE'S HERE TO DEFEND THE CULT He's continuing the abuse. We don't owe him a goddam thing.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 16:40:18 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: To Gerry, Nigel and Marianne
Message:
Re: Gerry
You wrote; 'I question everything this guy says. I've caught him in several lies or at least, glaring contradictions. The most obvious was when he reduced his age when have the 'sexual feelings for a five year old' from age fifteen down to thirteen.'

I clipped what I wrote in the first place: 'I did not write I feel sorry for Jagdeo. May be I do. I wrote I felt sad.
When I was 14 years old, I fell in love with a 5 year old girl. I did not do anything with her, but I had sexual feelings. Such feelings never occurred later in my life. When I read about pedophilic persons, I feel sad, but also grateful that such desires never developed within me.
I think I am very careful about jugding other people. That is based upon some very personal experiences were I was the victim.'
Gerry youn have constantly written that I was 15. When I checked which year it happened, I was in fact 13 and not yet sexually mature. I do not see that you ever have caught me in any lies or glaring contradictions.

Re Nigel,
English is not my native language. Everytime gerry could spot my accent, he exposed my identity and outed me as Bjørn and calling me a pedophile

Re Marianne

It does not surprise me that you have no sympaty for me. What surprised me once, however, is that once you wrote after being given a link to the child abuse case by Sir Dave, you expressed:
'Thank you, it warmed my hearth, love Marianne'

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 16:47:24 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Yes, and, what do you want?
Message:
Either ask Gerry to withdraw his accusation or drop it and the subject, IMO. I've read it all before. You could also have asked the FA to do something about those posts if they really concern you. Where exactly are you coming from Bjorn?

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 18:16:55 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Yes, and, what do I want?
Message:
My hope previously mentioned seems to vanish.

I have previously written to FA anbout this, but they have done nothing.
I also wrote to FA today and got the reply they thought I had written the posts of Fairway and Know it all because I once sent an email to Nigel. So claims Fairway to have done. I was told not to use other aliases.

I suppose an excuse from Gerry would not repair anything, but at least it would be of some kind of relief. Facts are facts and I can only witness the lies, libels and accusations of lies from gerry.
On a human level, if you were youself a victim, and being accused of being a pedophile in a newspaper or something, I don't think you would be really calm about it. What would you have done in my shoes?

At least this is a lesson for me to whom I should interact with

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 18:46:06 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Good Bjorn.
Message:
So, we agree that a public retraction from Gerry would help. I hope the FA and/or Gerry will take care of this ASAP. Speculation is notr grounds for accusation or judgement.

Now, after that is probably soon done with, what would you like to talk about here at the Forum? What are your concerns?

I'm concerned about the number of good people I've met who have had their love, time, energy, and thoughts deceitfully diverted into a dead-end humanity-in-general-excluding cult's mindlessness on a number of levels, as well as quite a few other issues.

BTW, my grandfather was Norwegian, my grandmother Swedish, on my Danish father's side, or something like that. And I'm a non-anything.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 19:56:26 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stonor, PervertPal
Subject: Fuck you both.
Message:
What speculation? He admitted as much.

Bjorn just wants to talk about Jagdeo and read a blow-by-blow description so he can get his rocks off.

He's not here for a discussion of the cult. He ARE one fer chrissake.

But yeah, maybe I should make a public 'retraction:' here it is

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 20:32:37 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I agree with gerry
Message:
I had the exact same reaction -- that Bjorn was titillated by the discussion about Jagdeo, and Susan's response to it.

No apologies from this end.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 20:58:03 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Iaccept/respect yors 'n gerry's feelings, Marianne
Message:
Perhaps, as Katie as suggested, Bjorn needs to work out some of his issues as a victim of child abuse in some other context. As I've mentioned, I don't know the whole history as well as some others, but I don't understand why this can't be resolved. It's some strange hybrid of a red-herring and a loose end, a stink bomb and a shit disturbance. I don't like it any more than you do - that's what I'm saying and that's why I'm posting when I take a break from gardening. I still don't think anyone should be calling anyone a paedophile without having to substantiate it. But what does the FA say about these things?

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 17:15:52 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: FA's? Why is he still here?
Message:
Bjorn is a liar. He said fifteen, then thirteen now fourteen.

It's my understanding that pedophiles don't get over it. There's no cure. He has this morbid interest in Jagdeo. It's all he talks about. He gets hammered for it, goes away for a while and then sneaks back in under a different name, but singing the same tune.

Do we really have to put up with this person?

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 20:33:53 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: FA's? Why is he still here?
Message:
I thought this guy had been kicked out for impersonating me.

KIA

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 23:13:06 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: FA's? Why is he still here?
Message:
Know it all, I never was impersonating you. Here is the correspondance between me and FA
My letter to the FA;

'>From: Bjørn
>To:
>Subject: Anth
>Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 12:32:25 +0200
>
>Anth
>According to JM you are the Forum Administrator.
>It is hard for me to believe that you made the accusations and lies about
>me. I never posted as the persons you accused me to do.
>Even if I disagree with your stand on both Maharaji and about how you
>handled the case about Jagdeo, I had the impression you were a decent
>person.
>
>I will say, and you may believe this or not, but I was severely sexually
>abused as a child in a way that had very negative consequenses for me in my
>youth. I had more or less forgotten about this, this whole thing brought up
>memories and made me depresed. I wrote to Susan about this and in her
>reply, she wrote to me about one of the victims; 'I have been in touch with
>one, and bringing all this up again was an utter crisis for her.' I think
>this is the same for me. To tell you the thruth, I am not sure if you guys
>reallly know what you are doing. For victims this is an entirely different
>thing than for 'well meaning people', seeing this as a tool to nail
>Maharaji. I think only a victim may understand this.
>As I wrote in my post, I sincerely regret that I ever posted on the Forum,
>I even regret that I read the Forum at all.
>
>Bjørn

Here is FA s reply to me_

Bjorn,

I am not Anth. No one person is forum administrator and we prefer to remain
anonymous.

(1) Nobody accused you of being 'JamesC'. James' thread was removed for
reasons that had nothing to do with you.

(2) Are you saying you have never posted as 'Fairplay'? If you haven't, I
will correct the error on the forum. It was definitely 'Fairplay' who
posted under 'Know It all's' alias, then signed off with 'Know It All (and
curious)'.

You DID post as 'Just Curious' though, didn't you? and a number of forum
members made the apparent connection between yourself and Fairplay. Nigel
tells me you emailed him, and that Fairplay also claimed on the forum to
have emailed him, when yours was the only premie email he had received...

If you have been wrongly accused, I will remove the block on you posting in
future - but, PLEASE NOTE, this is an ex-premie forum. Premies are allowed
to post as a privilege, not as a right - and one request is that you pick
one name or alias and stick to it.

Forum Admin'

What can I say. Thoughts are free, and my thoughts are mine. Needless to say, I would not like to have anything to do with you guys.


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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 12:28:43 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Bjorn / Fairplay - mistaken identity..?
Message:
I was about to post a retraction ( - an apology even, if you had (a) replied by email and not posted these exchanges on the forum, and (b) confirmed you were not 'Fairplay')

I didn't start an immediate block as I felt it would at least be fair to allow you to respond to this thread.

However, I am not sure a block is now appropriate. When 'Know it All' alerted me to somebody else using his/her alias, it was very easy to establish that it was 'Fairplay' who was responsible for that...

(BTW: 'Fairplay', whoever you are, you ARE definitely no longer welcome.)

... but I may have jumped the gun in accepting the views of a number of people here that 'Fairplay' was also 'Bjorn' (nobody was posting as 'Bjorn' at the time so it was impossible to check for certain.)

re. blocking: I'll defer making a decision for the time being and see what the consensus of opinion seems to be over the next few days.

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:02:55 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Bjorn is naughty: He says we want to nail M???
Message:
What kind of argument is that? How many times he has to be reminded that Maharaji knew about Jagdeo, but no, he wants to keep screaming that is unfair. We want to nail Maharaji... His defender on F5 spoke!!

Maharaji is responsible. It's his organization and his people. Period.

B just wants to abuse people with his radical absurd ideas: He is not interested about the truth or discussing something openly. Besides, He doesn't like us. Isn't that a good reason to say good bye?

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 21:03:16 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: I remember Bjo block. Kept forgetting to add. (NT)
Message:
I remember Bjo block. Kept forgetting to add. (NT)
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 16:28:02 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Yes Gerry and Katie and Nigel and Marianne and FA
Message:
Then why is he allowed to post? I'm obviously not the only one who is tired of the redundancy. This is a comment as someone not as thoroughly aware of the details as many others here, and I can't be the only one who gets confused. And I agree with you Gerry, about the way that just continuing to raise and expand on the topic is Off Topic. IMO, it's allowing him to stir up confusion and bad feelings, as well as undermine the integrity and purpose of the Forum.

So FA, is there some kind of potential policy on this kind of thing that could be consistently applied?

Stonor

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:24:34 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: JamesC and Bjorn
Message:
Thank you for removing Bjorn from the forum. Not very nice adopting my alias!

KIA

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:36:49 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: JamesC and Bjorn
Message:
I'm not sad to see the back of Bjørn but tell me this, wasn't he that Norwegian guy who wasn't actually a premie but had a sort of passing interest in M&K and one day while between jobs had a moment to spare so idly wrote a post to the forum to comment on what he considered the jaundiced attitude of exes toward their former master?

He claimed to have no vested interests, just believed in fairplay, wanted to make a few comments and ask a few questions, however nearly a year later is still hanging around and has broken nearly every rule in the forum guidelines. Boy he's a casual customer eh?

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 23:26:07 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Bjorn
Message:
Bjorn's a premie and as Gerry likes to point out, has a sexual interest in children. He's been unforgivably nasty about the Jagdeo stuff. He's a jerk and I'm glad he took on my moniker so we could get rid of him.


KIA

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 22:59:32 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: To KIA
Message:
KIA,
Hi, there! I just wanted to bring up something for your consideration. Did Bjorn adopt your moniker on purpose, did he realize that there was someone here called 'know it all'?

The reason I ask this is that you have a fairly common moniker for an opinion-type forum. My point being that anyone could call themselves a 'know it all'--especially if they didn't come here often and didn't know there was already someone using that as their alias.

On this forum, we have had more than one person calling themselves X, Curious, a premie, and student. None of these people intentionally used someone else's alias, they just picked a name that suited them.

If Bjorn was 'Just Curious' then farewell and I hope he gets some help,
VP

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 01:09:43 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Hello VP
Message:
I have to consider the source when I think about whether there has been a mistake in using my moniker. No one else has done it in the year plus that I have been around. I've been making regular posts since this guy appeared. Sorry, I don't believe anything he says.

VP

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 01:11:06 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Hello VP
Message:
I signed VP on the above post instead of KIA. Sorry.
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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 01:20:33 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: See how easy it is to do?
Message:
Just Kidding! snicker snicker

KIA,
I didn't know he (or you) had been posting regularly enough to notice your name. It was just a thought that occured to me when I read the post where he used your name. I thought, 'whoops! Someone has used KIA's name accidentally.

VP

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 01:42:18 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: 'Just Curious' is Bjorn (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:53:09 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Thanks and...
Message:
Please note the 'flag' I made to you in my reply to Elaine down below. Worth your attention.

oh, and cq & I were being jokey about 'outing' each other down there too, but you knew that I hope!

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:09:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A small insight
Message:
Last night a certain irony occured to me. In some ways, the cult's history over the past 25 years or so has been one of trying to 'normalize' after the debacle of Millenium ('The Day the Earth Kept Going Like Nothing Special Happened Because it Didn't'), the family split and reality basically catching up to the teenage Lord of the Universe's over-the-top braggadoccio. Not a steady path, for sure, but, overall, the cult has, admittedly, tried to reduce expectations, get rid of the wilder claims of so-called 'God realization' and, like I say, normalize (as if a cult could ever be normal!). Okay, so you have that trend.

On the other hand, 27 years ago, when I first got involved, therre was a basic honesty we all shared with one another. Sure, our ideas were entirely whack -- that there was a Lord of the Universe in the first place and that he had 'manifested' (yeck! I hate that word now!) in the form of a teenage Hamster from India -- but we were so upfront and honest about it all. We really had a kind of crazy nobility then. We did, we did, we did. We were true to our convictions and shameless in our dedication.

So what happens? As the cult 'normalizes' externally, the communication between all of its members, from the top down, and also all communication between the cult and the ourtside world, it all becomes cloudier and sicker and more and more disingenuous and shameful and, well, internally, one could say, the cult has become even MORE decrepit in a way!

So you have these apparently conflicting trends. And I hate it.

What do I hate? I hate the fact that I can't even be friends with my old cult cohorts, people who I escpecially valued, way back when, as people I'd never have to compromise with, never have to lie to, brothers and sisters in my 'search for TRUTH'. Others might lack the fortitude for such candour, but my premie brothers and sisters were committed to honesty. We inspired the highest aspirations to truthfulness in each other. At least on good days and there were many of them.

But now? Now there IS no common past, there IS no common history. Now I'm stupid to remember that Maharaji claimed he was God in spite of all the FAQs in the world. I really, really hate the way the cult has set us all against each other like this. Why? Because I figure that if it weren't for this insidious Orwellian defense mechanism, I'd have friends all over the place, willing to share a few good laughs with me about the time we did indeed run out into the streets, blah, blah, blah. As it is, I'm a pariah in all the Canadian premie communities. And, don't get me wrong, I'm every bit as much disgusted with what's become of my old cult crew. AND, from the sounds of it, most of them are disgusted with each other too, even when they're still IN the cult (consider Elaine). No one still involved apparently has any genuine respect for the other cult members. How could they, knowign what we all know to be true? It's like a big, very dysfunctional family. Shame, shame and more shame.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 10:37:04 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A small insight
Message:
Hi Jim,

I already see that you have touched quite a few readers with the points you have made here regarding the transformation of relations between premie companions through the changing days of the cult. As you know this subject has been one of my hobbyhorse problems since becoming an ex. I guess my preoccupation with the cracks in my relationships is entirely selfish, I see myself becoming ever more isolated and lonely as life moves on. Really though it is a major problem particularly if you've been a very social animal down the years. When your main area of social interaction is suddenly closed off you can't (at the age of forty) just go out and overnight find a new gang of mates, can you? Sure I've got friends I've made through my work etc. but basically my roots don't go very deep with these guys and I can tell you I don't talk about the cult with any of them. I just have to face the fact that there's a big fucking chasm that has opened up in my life BUT I see a lot of hope for the future.

As you know I posted recently about a meeting I had with a group of my old buddies from the cult years. I have had some altercations with them over the past year so we've been ducking and dodging each other for a while but the other day there seemed to be a refreshed atmosphere between us all. Maybe I was fooling myself (as I've been known to do) but I got the distinct impression that where there's any intelligence there is the ability to see reason and so it is only a matter of time before we are all facing the same way on this issue.

It just seems to be harder for some folks to look this thing straight in the eye. I remember a post you made some time back where you outline the difference between a premie and an ex. Basically you state that premies actually want a limited spectrum of information whereas exes are hungry for ALL the info even scraps of speculative scandal and dirt. Exes have decided that they're old and ugly enough to know the awful truth.

Anyway I see this awakening happening to all my old pals but interestingly the thing that seems to be having the greatest effect at changing their minds is EV's own policies (gagging the exes etc.) They realise they're sitting with the bad guys and they're feeling might uncomfortable. Yesterday upon request, I printed out a whole slew of 'journeys' from EPO to post to a girl I know living in France who is not connected to the Net. Only six months ago she was totally enraged after a conversation she had with Lee. At the time she had expressed a desire to have a satellite dish installed on her roof so that she could get video feeds from the Hamster. Now after months of silence she reveals she is no longer practising meditation and has started to think hard about things. She too is discovering that life goes on beyond the cult.

Really I do believe the days of the cult are numbered and our old mates will be free to be true to themselves once more.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 08:30:12 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A small insight
Message:
We were true to our convictions and shameless in our dedication.

I don't know about this. Underneath, for me, there was always an undertow of 'what the fuck am I doing, here'? And when I had to deal with my family and friends about it, I just felt plain stupid. After all, I wasn't exactly having the experience as promised, just waiting in the wings for it to happen.

Others might lack the fortitude for such candour, but my premie brothers and sisters were committed to honesty. We inspired the highest aspirations to truthfulness in each other. At least on good days and there were many of them.

The only time I was honest about M and K was when I confessed that I wasn't really sure that this was all it was cranked up to be. Everything else I said about it was bullshit.

But now? Now there IS no common past, there IS no common history.

That's revision for you. And the only reason people revise history is because they're ashamed of it. Premies don't want to admit that Maharaji declared, openly, and in so many words, that he was God in the flesh, and they believed it or, at least, kidded themselves (probably because it was fun to) that it was true. They're older now, and they don't want to remember their silly youth. Nor does Maharaji.

Bottom line? For me, it was just a bullshit fad that I was young enough, and confused enough, to get caught up in.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 18:47:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: A small insight
Message:
I'd said:

We were true to our convictions and shameless in our dedication.

To which Jerry said:

I don't know about this. Underneath, for me, there was always an undertow of 'what the fuck am I doing, here'? And when I had to deal with my family and friends about it, I just felt plain stupid. After all, I wasn't exactly having the experience as promised, just waiting in the wings for it to happen.

Jer,

This issue's arisen before here, as you know, but here's what I say. Yes, we had doubts but we honestly believed that our minds were evil and untrustworthy. So, at some level, we WERE sincere.

Today, however, premies know that they're simply avoiding certain issues and lying about others. It's different.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:33:59 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Very well said, Jim, I like this side of you...::)
Message:
The side that is still kinda idealistic. What you say is really treu.

I think you would probably find that current premies (PWKs, students, whatever) are among the most cynical people you could find.

How could they not be? How much compromise, repression, cognitive dissonance, contradiction can you deal with concerning the person and the practice that is supposed to be the center of your life, and NOT become cynical? And you certainly wouldn't ever want to talk about it. I think the reason premies mostly avoid ex-premies like the plague, is that it really is painful to be reminded of what you know deep down is true, but can't bear to admit. It's also kind of sad to be reminded of how open and joyful and honest premies used to be, but aren't anymore.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 04:18:11 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I miss some of my old premie buddies too.
Message:
I've actually thought of starting a campaign to contact(harass?) all my old ashram mates. I've grown to feel that my relationships with people over time(regardless of their particular bent) are much more important to me than I thought they were.
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:34:36 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A small insight
Message:
Dear Jim,
Thanks for your post, it has brought back memories of Amaroo '97.

It's a funny place, very schizo. Wallabies and VIPs gambolling in the same paddock.

It reminds one of the early days, heaven on earth, we are all one in that feeling. And the elitism is extraordinary. In the workers camp are all the servants, and so on.

It still sticks in my throat too much, but i started this post because i wanted to say that I can remember when it really didn't matter whether you were rich or poor etc, and it sickens me to see dear old friends now no longer able to be idealistic. I put that down to too much time sucking up hamster poo. Lesley

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:20:25 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A small insight
Message:
>How could they, knowing what we all know to be true?

And what might that be?
What is really, really important in your life?

>I'd have friends all over the place, willing to share a few good laughs

You probably do, but what is missing is mutual respect.
The logic you prize so highly is missing what is important.

X

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:19:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: X
Subject: You miss the point, X
Message:
What's 'really, really important' in my life is to help myself and those I care about survive and survive well. That's the first thing. 'God realization' -- the goal of practising k (and no, I won't accept any watered down version of this) -- is meaningless to me.

As for what's true, the first item of business is that Maharaji's a scoundrel. That's true and he's got the bank account to prove it.

As for 'mutual respect', I don't respect liars and I don't respect people who call me a liar when I'm speaking truthfully. Maharaji claimed to be God and now denies he ever did. Read the FAQs. The whole thing's disgusting. No, I have no respect for premies and never will.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:16:18 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My insights
Message:
You Said>>>'What's 'really, really important' in my life is to help myself and those I care about survive and survive well. '
Me>>>Standard basic motives that 99% of the world responds to.Nothing special.

You Said>>>''God realization' -- the goal of practising k (and no, I won't accept any watered down version of this) -- is meaningless to me.
Me>>>Fine,but how can you pass judgement on the actions of people for whom it is important?You can't.And Jim,whether you care about him or not there is a God.

You Said>>>'As for what's true, the first item of business is that Maharaji's a scoundrel. That's true and he's got the bank account to prove it.
Me>>>Having a bank account bigger than yours doesn't make a person a scoundrel.

You Said>>>'As for 'mutual respect', I don't respect liars and I don't respect people who call me a liar when I'm speaking truthfully.
Me>>>I believe you that you don't make a practice of lying and you call 'em like you see 'em.The problem with you is not that you are a liar but that you are ignorant and think your truth is the absolute.By the way,I xcan sympathize with you.I hate people calling me a liar when I'm telling the truth too.

You Said>>>'Maharaji claimed to be God and now denies he ever did. Read the FAQs.The whole thing's disgusting.
Me>>>Show us a quote where he said'I am God,the all knowing,all seeing creator,preserver,and destroyer of the universe'.

You Said>>>'No, I have no respect for premies and never will.
Me>>>Who cares,I mean who really cares about your tiny little perspective on the world Jim?The world is full of opinionated and prejediced fools and every day you prove yourself to be just another one of the many.You've discovered that you'll never be stricken down for being one so you think you can get away with it.Funny

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 21:13:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: O
Subject: You're stuck in a new-age loop of stupidity
Message:
Where in the world did you get the idea that you can't judge people? Of course you can. You can and you do and you couldn't stop if you wanted to. Al lyou can do is lie to yourself about ir.

Maharaji did indeed call himself God exactly as you describe. Here's just one such quote:

Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ......
When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith.

As for his money, well you're too stupid to understand. Anyone outside your cult would though. That's just one reason the Hamster hides from the outside world. And that's just one of the things that will likely catch up with him one of these days. You'll see.

Are you an honest person? What names have you posted under here?

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 22:49:20 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Actually I'm stuck in old-age senility
Message:
You said>>>'Where in the world did you get the idea that you can't judge people? Of course you can. You can and you do and you couldn't stop if you wanted to. Al lyou can do is lie to yourself about ir.'
Me>>>Of course we do,but some people realize the limits of their viewpoint and wisely reserve judgement.You don't care about God realization,so who are you to comment on people who do?

You>>>'Maharaji did indeed call himself God exactly as you describe. '
Me>>>Hmmmm, looks like the speaker of those words is definitely God himself,pretty clear.Got me there Jim.Question is why he made such an emphatic statement and now wants to mute it.You think it is for disengenuous reasons,I trust him that he HAS his reasons.That's all I need.Datz da diffence 'tween yoos and me Jim .

You said>>>'As for his money, well you're too stupid to understand. '
Me>>>Come on,flattery doesn't become you.

You>>>'Are you an honest person? What names have you posted under here? '
Why the f--k don't you stop asking me that?!?

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 23:55:50 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Do you still think he is God?
Message:
Hmmmm, looks like the speaker of those words is definitely God himself,pretty clear.Got me there Jim.

No, what is clear is that 'the speaker' of those words SAID he was God. It sounds like you still believe him, is that true?

Question is why he made such an emphatic statement and now wants to mute it. You think it is for disengenuous reasons, I trust him that he HAS his reasons. That's all I need.

Why don't you just capitalize 'him' and 'he' while you're at it, because you're not supposed to anymore? I'm going to guess that you semi-believe that he is God but he is hiding this ('mute it' as you put it) so as to not scare people off, kind of a white lie. I supposed you also believe that his statements and behaviour that indicate that he is not God, not all-knowing, and not even enlightened are really just 'His Lila'. If you don't recall these statements I can help you with some quotes. Consider his admission that his expensive watch collecting is a 'bad habit', his words, not mine.

So do I have it straight, is this what you believe?

Datz da diffence 'tween yoos and me Jim .

Trying to be cool?

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 17:53:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Why not admit what's so painfully obvious, O?
Message:
I'd said:

'Maharaji did indeed call himself God exactly as you describe. '

to which you replied:

Hmmmm, looks like the speaker of those words is definitely God himself,pretty clear.Got me there Jim.Question is why he made such an emphatic statement and now wants to mute it.You think it is for disengenuous reasons,I trust him that he HAS his reasons.That's all I need.Datz da diffence 'tween yoos and me Jim

Your trust, in the circumstances, is madness, O. It's a complete abdication of any sincerity in this discussion. It's tantamount to a five year-old ducking under the covers.

The fact is, as this point so strongly proves, you realyl don't know what the fuck's going on here. You odn't know ANYTHING about Maharaji, not really. Why, you didn't even know that he used to call himself the Lord of the Universe, did you?

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 05:35:16 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: O
Subject: JIm, it is OP..(nt)
Message:
fbbd
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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 19:32:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Where do you get that from, Bill? (nt)
Message:
hhhhhhh
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 22:59:49 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: O
Subject: I'm waiting for you to acknowledge my post bellow
Message:
ABOUT ARTI
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 07:30:20 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: O
Subject: My poetry...
Message:
Hey O!

You never told me what you think of my poem J'ACCUSE.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 05:53:19 (GMT)
From: In ARTI premie Ji
Email: None
To: O
Subject: My insights
Message:
Losing your memory too, beside your money and time?

You Said (Jim)>>>'Maharaji claimed to be God and now denies he ever did. Read the FAQs.The whole thing's disgusting.

Me (O)>>>Show us a quote where he said'I am God,the all knowing,all seeing creator,preserver,and destroyer of the universe'.

HOW MANY TIMES WE SANG ARTI TO HIM!!!! I have a cassette. Do you want it?

SB

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:19:58 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: In ARTI premie Ji/SB
Subject: My insights
Message:
the words to Arti:

'Creator, Preserver, Destroyer ...' (presumably Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva)

'... bow their heads and pray to you
All bow and pray to you ...'

And Maharaji commanded that this be sung to him in every ashram, morning and night.

And didn't he sit there while it was sung to him at various festivals - Alexandra Palace, early 70s, Copenhagen, mid 70s - maybe later ones as well???

Not to mention the Houston Millennium gig, well documented on the LOTU video (which I've not yet seen).

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:21:01 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: Could anyone type out the words to Arti?
Message:
I can't remember it properly. There were two different sections weren't there? One started with ' Meditation begins in the form of our master ( a rather dreary durge , comparible to God save our gracious Queen ) then came Jai Guru Dev Maharaji, your glory fills the world ..............

We sang those words morning and night for years and now they are claiming that those words were open to interpretation? What possible meaning could they have save that M is the supreme Lord in person. DENIAL ; DENIAL Elan Vital LIARS SUPREME !!!!!!

I'd be grateful if someone could put them up on the forum, then O or Dep or Mili or some other premie could try and tell us that he never claimed to be God . What a joke! Unbelievable!

Hal

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 15:29:24 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Arti is on the site, Hal
Message:
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/iarti.htm

I don't want to post the whole thing on the forum because everyone always ends up having the words running through their head all day - not a pleasant feeling.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 19:54:47 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks Katie NT
Message:
Nt
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 17:59:05 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A small insight
Message:
Jim, well said. Not only was there a certain nobility but a sense of freedom that came from knowing the Truth and declaring it publicly. New premies and revisionists should not forget that DLM was a messianic movement. The Lord had come, and he was bringing peace to the world. Premies, generally, were idealistc folks who were looking not only for a a little personal realization and peace, but who were attracted to a movement that was going to solve the major problems of the world. There was disillusionment with the political and social movements of the time, which seemed incapable of solving major problems. If we wanted to change the world, we needed to change the way people thought and felt(still a powerful argument, but another conversation)and Knowledge was the key

One disgusting thing (among others) about M is that he used the collective wealth of resources at his disposal-peoples lives, money, etc. for his own pathetic self-agrandisement. Now, 30 years later, there is nothing to show for it(not including his amassed wealth) other than a few thousand deluded premies unable to let go and willing to continue supporting him so that he can continue his 'work.' It really is sad.

Paul

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:36:17 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: and now the non-messianic EV blames DLM's converts
Message:
and now the non-messianic EV blames DLM's converts ...



...for having WANTED to believe the spiel in the first place!

Well, for what it's worth, anyone born pre-1960 who remembers the name 'Guru Maharaji Ji' can only equate today's ultra non-messianic/non-leader 'Maharaji' (same bloke) with his former claims of being 'Perfect Master', 'Lord of the Universe', etc.

The fact that they're trying to re-write the history books reveals today's Elan Vital to be the Master-scam that it really is.


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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:56:22 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: cq
Subject: It's rotten to the core
Message:
A lying, hypocritical organisation with only career cultists left to run it. The cult is now merely a career opportunity for the aging has-beens who would be out of a job if it wasn't for Helen Vitals.

A stinking mess of rotting fish. You turn over the rock and there, crawling beneath it are the wimpering, mithering cult apologists who are only in in for the money, anyway and wouldn't understand a sincere principle if it jumped up and bit them on the nose.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:42:42 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: strange how 'not God' Maha had a Holy Family (nt)
Message:
strange how 'not God' Maha had a Holy Family (nt)
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:10:23 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: **** Hey Rog****
Message:
Roger, where's the best of these days???

Look, this an emergency.

We got dave sayin stuff like 'wimpering, mithering cult apologists' and 'rotten mess of stinking fish,' and yer sitting on yer hands.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 17:34:03 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well said
Message:
You hit the nail right on the head!
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 14:42:36 (GMT)
From: tonette
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: wondering id site is locked yet nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:38:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bhole Ji speaks out!
Message:
I just took a look at Satpal's page and lo and behold, they've finally added some shit. Like Shri Bhole Ji's satsang:

Discourse - Shri Bhole Ji Maharaj

Manav Dharam (June 2000)
People come from far and wide to listen to satsang but very few reflect upon what is said and give some thought as to how to put it into practice in their daily lives.

There are two kinds of devotees. The first listens to satsang, gives it some thought and incorporates it into his life. For the other kind, satsang goes in one ear and out the other. He leaves behind in the satsang hall whatever he has heard. Such a person can’t work for his own salvation. Maharaj Ji gives us Knowledge, gives us satsang and tells us to meditate. So we should meditate. The spiritual wealth of meditation is the only wealth that will go with you when you leave this world. You have to leave everything else behind. Magnificent castles and forts were built, but nowadays they are empty. Why? Because the rajahs and maharajahs who built them also left them and died.

On the other hand, the treasure we have accumulated from meditation will go with us- no one can snatch that from us. That is why we should meditate. Nobody knows when this body will stop working. You can’t rely on it. So you have to build up your spiritual capital through meditating on the Holy Name. We come into this world empty-handed and leave it the same way. Only the wealth of the Holy Name goes with us. So build up your spiritual treasure!

Good advice, I'm sure.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 11:20:42 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: what the hell is spiritual capital?-(nt)
Message:
cfgj
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 13:25:55 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bhole Ji speaks out!
Message:
.... For the other kind, satsang goes in one ear and out the other. He leaves behind in the satsang hall whatever he has heard.

Only if he's got any sense.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 06:19:40 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Lil' Bro could use his PR machine though...
Message:
You got to hand it to Sat Pal, he's at least being seen to do his bit for world peace and humanitarianism.

News clips like....

Manav Utthan Sewa Samiti, a well known social and spiritual organisation has launched a massive relief programme in the worst cyclone-hit areas of Orissa. Inspired by spiritual and political leader Shri Satpal Maharaj, the Samiti has started distributing relief material of Rupees 7 lacs like— rice, cereals, milk powder, tea, salt, clothing and blankets etc. among the victims. Earlier, Shri Satpal Maharaj presented a cheque of Rupees one lac to Congress President Mrs. Sonia Gandhi for relief work in cyclone-hit areas of Orissa

...get me wondering if we didn't follow the wrong sibling after all Jim!! Hey, BTW take a look at http://www.dunritegroup.com/company.htm Recognize any names? Its none other than EV/Visions own media factory, masquerading as a 'regular' worldly company. Like its company history page - 'Begun in 1991 making training & education material'. Yeah sure.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:56:20 (GMT)
From: Lois Lane
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Report on US event(s)
Message:
A report:

. A policeman, a security officer, and premie security were outside the ballroom during the session(s).

. Sales tables were unavoidable as I left the ballroom after the K review.

. Some PWKs (people with knowledge, formerly known as premies) did all-night service. They were given priority for getting in the hall (it was too small).

. Had to stand in line for awhile to register.

. I had to wear a plastic braclet all night to get in the next day. It was brightly colored with shiny Knowledge insignias on it. The next day, I went to a room where another plastic braclet of a different color was put around my wrist.

. When registering, before leaving the room I was asked if I wanted to apply for a SmartCard. The cost (suggested) was $30.00. They take a picture, and there are forms to fill out. The processing takes a few weeks. Also was given a form so Elan Vital can reach me, and a gift certificate good for $5 off a purchase of $15 or more. Limit one per customer.

. During the registration process, many of the ushers had walkie-talkies with speakers that go into the ear. Saw someone later holding some papers looking very important.

The program started with a video called 'Little Drops of Mercy'.
I believe it was his wife that was narating.

Some things that 'Maharaji' said:

'Don't judge me and I won't judge you.'

Recounted going to Amar's school because he was crying. Amar is his youngest child. He gave the teacher a look that meant 'What are you doing to my child?' He basically described her as being 'in her mind' because she said 'Hi, I'm Amar's mother.' instead of 'Hi, I'm Amar's teacher.' He didn't actually say 'in her mind' but that's the old way of saying it.

He talked about the 'mind'. He once briefly stated that he means
uncontrolled thoughts. He said that the 'mind' gets into fear and guilt.

Condensed version of his driving a car analogy:
While driving a car, if you pay too much attention to switching the radio's channels, you'll go off the road and hit a tree, or you might be on a bridge and go off the bridge (and drown?). Your excuse might be 'But I didn't know.'

He went to a driving instructor, who basically said to stay aware, pay attention, and he (the driving instructor) gets paid for saying this.

Somewhat paraphrased and condensed, I don't remember the exact wording:
He talked about the difference between California time and east coast time, that the mind said 'You can't go to sleep now.' and 'But I have to get up in the morning'. (for the program?) Then he said 'I'm not saying this happened to me! But I've seen the logic of the mind at work.'

Knowledge review (via DVD video):

'Maharaji' left the ballroom during the K review.

The video started with some new-agey type music and graphics, etc. He talked for a while, including going over the three promises you are supposed to make, give K a fair chance, 'keep in touch' and not to tell anyone these techniques as 'They are not yours to give.' and 'Let the Master determine who is ready.' No mention of him having 'Grace'.

For each technique, he described the technique, then the video stoped at a still frame of him doing the technique for the remainder of the technique. During the video he seemed to have a 'giving permission' and commanding tone and wording, like 'You may put down your hands now' and 'You may now open your eyes'.

During the description of the breath technique, he said to imagine the breath as a swing. As you inhale, the swing rises, as you exhale, the swing lowers. Follow (or focus on?) the breath, don't try to control it, let it take you inside. He did not say to imagine 'the Master' swinging you on a swing, as one premie
apparently told an ex that he did. He also said 'Focus here' and pointed to his chest. Now he says your hands can either be folded on your lap, placed on your knees palms down, or on your knees in that yoga position where your thumb and forefinger touch.

The descriptions of the other techniques were pretty much unchanged from the new versions of the techniques.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:59:59 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Lois Lane
Subject: Report on US event(s)
Message:
I hope you continue to this as much as you can; it's so insane that it needs to be expossed. Thanks lots!!

SB

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 21:17:12 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Lois Lane
Subject: Magical Thinking still alive and well...
Message:
Thanks Lois for that neat summary.

'keep in touch' and not to tell anyone these techniques as 'They are not yours to give.' and 'Let the Master determine who is ready.'

Seems like the idea the techniques are exclusively the Hamster's property lives on, and belies any premie claims that M is merely some sort of advanced practictioner, rather than magical being who transmits some kind of Grace along with the four procedures.

Even more so, this idea that 'the Master' is in any position to determine whether or not a person he has never met is 'ready' to receive Knowledge, when he himself is not present at the time of selection... How would THAT possibly work, if the Master is not omniscient after all?

What a pile of thinly-disguised hokum. Contemptible.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:35:05 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Lois Lane
Subject: Report on US event(s)
Message:
Yikes--imagining him swinging me on a swing right straight to hell!! What an image! Glad he at least is not including that handy little visualization in his 'reviews' anymore
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 11:41:20 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: True story about rawat and swings
Message:
when Marolyn his wife was pregnant with amar, it was christmans day and rawat decided that THAT would be a good day for amar to be born so he put marolyn on a swing set and kept swinging her until she went into labor.

All the local deca and residence community in Miami was abuzz with that info the next day.

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 01:53:29 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: We were asked to meditate that day!
Message:
The next Lord was being born...
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 14:11:56 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Lois Lane
Subject: Thank you, Lois - great post (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 12:32:16 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Lois Lane
Subject: Report on US event(s)
Message:
He'll have to think of something else to add to his reportoire. He can't go on forever showing the same four badly designed meditation techniques over and over again everytime he does a K review. I mean, how dumb does he think people are?

Is this what he means by learning more???

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:29:30 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Report on US event(s)
Message:
>I mean, how dumb does he think people are?

The news today said that the US anti-missile system will be tested today.
Computers are more important than good food.
If you want to survive an illness in the US be prepared to pay.
Julius Irvings son was found at the bottom of a lake.
We still don't know where we go when we die?
How did we get here anyway?

X

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:40:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: X
Subject: Report on X's brain
Message:
Well, well, well, look what we have here! Another CD. Great. Just what we needed. Another pompous new-age muddlehead who can't speak coherently but instead spouts banal faux-profundities like a cheap Yoda knock-off.

IS this CD? Really, who cares? These people are broken so I guess you can interchange the parts. Like their words. Just pick up a few here, attach them to a few there. Presto!

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 00:48:53 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: X
Subject: Report on US event(s)
Message:
The term, 'Being savaged by a dead sheep' comes to mind. I'm not in the US so I don't have to worry about most of your post.

Regarding the end bit; we go to Heaven when we die and how did we get here? Either the stork brought us or our Mother got pregnant.

Are you Chris Dickey by any chance?

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 01:44:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I read your post AFTER my own, Dave (nt)
Message:
ttttt
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 00:52:05 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Post Script
Message:
My reference to dead sheep is not meant to be an insult but is refering to a saying by a popular British ex-politician of which Americans would know little.
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 11:49:33 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Judging M...hmmmm
Message:
I once mentioned to my roommate, after an event in Miami that M spoke of trust and honesty and yet my roommate had just confided in me that he travels the world with his concubine (mistress) Marilyn. I said that that is somewhat hypocritical, at which point she ripped me a new hole and told me never to judge M. I guess it is alright to 'do as I say not as I do'.

During one video, M tells about taking his family to a restaurant in his truck. The valet kind of made a remark about taking the family to dinner in a truck. M said that he wanted to tell the valet that he had cars that he (the valet) would never be able to afford. In fact, his whole family would never be able to afford. He then went on with his typical babble and discourse mentioning that it is not right to judge.

That was the last video I attended.

I then saw him in Rome for his 20th or 25th anniversary of coming to the west. But that is another story for another time. After that event, I knew it was time to get a life.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:56:47 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Judging M...hmmmm
Message:
During one video, M tells about taking his family to a restaurant in his truck. The valet kind of made a remark about taking the family to dinner in a truck. M said that he wanted to tell the valet that he had cars that he (the valet) would never be able to afford. In fact, his whole family would never be able to afford.

This was in New York back in the late 80s or early 90s, I don't remember exactly. It was at this program that I first heard Maharaji play dumb about being LOTU. He said something to the effect of 'I don't know why people call me the Lord Of The Universe. I feel like a human being, look like a human being...' (shrugs, smirks, gets a laugh from the audience, y'know, playing cute. fuck him). Another funny he said at this program was that he never read Who Is Guru Maharaji? Why should he, he asked. He already knew the answer to the question (Har, har, har, everybody laughs. fuck him).

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 15:49:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Marolyn's the wife, Monica the ALLEGED mistress (n
Message:
jjjjjj
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:03:42 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Monica the ALLEGED mistress
Message:
My typo, the alleged mistress (concubine) is Monica. Although I have it from good sources, it is not so alleged.
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 08:39:49 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Lois Lane
Subject: Your report added to the website, thank you!!!
Message:
Thank you for your report. I can imagine what it looks like, having that holy bracelet on your wrist ......

The US Event Report has been included in the appropriate section of what EV, Rawat and their attorneys don't like: Elan Vital Today

Have an idea of what premies are involved in nowadays....

So much for their security systems!!

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:18:25 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Lois Lane
Subject: Thanks Lois! What's the smartcard for?
Message:
Thanks Lois for that report! Unbelievable. He really does sprout such utter nonsense.

A couple of points I want to make:

* Wonder what the copper thought about all of this, or was he a premie impersonating a policeman?
* I've seen those plastic bracelets on people who've gone to see Anthony Robbins - can't M be more original? Feels a bit Brave New World or 1984 doesn't it?
* What on earth was the SmartCard for - and what a rip-off! $30. Are they going to have turnstiles from now on?
* Bet those premie security guards loved their microphone headgear - did they feel like Madonna?
* He just says 'Don't judge me' and then he goes on to give a right judgement about Amar's teacher - saying she was in her mind. Fuck that's a judgement if ever I heard it.
* I'm so sick of his out-there analogies. And that's such a lame one. I have switched channels in my car-radio for years and have never hit a tree. I wonder how many premies have? C'mon M, there's got to be something better than that.
* That driving instructor point, was a subliminal way of saying 'you should pay me because I'm telling you how to stay conscious'.
* When he says that the techniques are not ours to give. Oh, fuck off! Actually the other day, a friend showed me a great way to cure hiccups, but said I'd look like an idiot while I did it, but it would stop it immediately. So this is what you do. You stick your two thumbs in your ears, while blocking your nostrils with your pinkies on each hand, and then breathe through your mouth. You do look like a dickhead, but the hiccups stop immediately! Anyway, saying the techniques aren't ours to give, is like me saying 'hey, none of you are to tell my hiccup theory' as it's not yours to give. And let's face, are any of you exes ready or worthy for my hiccup technique ... !!

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 06:33:07 (GMT)
From: Where are the tecniques??
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: I couldn't find them. JM?
Message:
sb
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:07:29 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Where are the tecniques??
Subject: The techniques are on ex-premie.org
Message:
Along with the rest of the EV/DLM papers.

http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/KSession.htm

(Hi SB - thanks for the kitty cats! I will write you a real letter!
P.S. don't forget to put your name in the 'From' field!)

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 22:44:23 (GMT)
From: Lois Lane
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Thanks Lois! What's the smartcard for?
Message:
Your welcome. It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it.

The SmartCard is some kind of electronic card. It has information about a PWK on it. They say it is a way to make it easier to 'keep in touch'. I don't know if money is involved once a PWK has one, like a debit card, I think probably not. I think it is more a photo id card, to help keep people who aren't PWKs [old term 'non-premies'], ex-premies, and uninvolved PWKs [non-practicing premies] out of the PWK-only events. I think it said that a SmartCard was be required to attend some events. Elan Vital says it has no members, but this sure sounds like a membership card to me. Why they want to say that they have no members I don't know.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 23:20:18 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Lois Lane
Subject: Thanks Lois! What's the smartcard for?
Message:
Hi Lois, thanks for the info.

I think Elan Vital wants to say it has no members in order to argue that it isn't a cult. I mean, if it had no members, how could it be?

The ID card is kind of frightening in an Orwellian, big brother, sort of sense. I think it also is a reflection of the growing paranoia of Maharaji and Elan Vital. They are already screening people, so afraid some undesirable will get into one of it's 'PWK-only' meetings, and then talking about it over the internet. Recall that Gail was barred from attending such a program just because she used her real name on this website and was critical of Maharaji.

What is it that they have to hide? Like someone said: doesn't this increased security, as well as the obvious lies in the Elan Vital FAQs start their own 'non-members' questioning what is going on? Doesn't it undermine the image that Maharaji is open to people, including any of us coming back to the fold?

Growing paranoia is typical of a cult, though. It isn't one of the 'characteristics' that Elan Vital chose to include when it set out disproving that it isn't a cult.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:24:38 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: smartcard? 30 dollars in someone's pocket? (nt)
Message:
smartcard? 30 dollars in someone's pocket? (nt)
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:01:44 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Lois Lane
Subject: Indian giver
Message:
I particularly liked this bit:

(premies are) not to tell anyone these techniques as 'They are not yours to give.'

So just who does he think the techniques belong to? Are they patented/copyrighted/registered by him, Elan Vital or any other facet of his cult? Are they to be considered his intellectual property?

Yet another inspiration for us to continue to pursue the Rhadasoami connection. Hey, wouldn't it be a gas if it turns out another branch of the sect had patented them and he was in breach! Highly unlikely. I looked into it a while ago, because I was actually considering patenting them myself! Unfortunately they do not qualify since they are not 'radically new, original or different from any existing technique or methodology' (paraphrased from US Patent Office guidelines).

Perhaps we should have a permanent link at the top to a page with pictures/text describing the techniques, so that sincere aspirants could skip all the bullshit and indoctrination and just get on with meditating, if they so wish. After all, it used to be said that the techniques were nothing without the Grace of the Perfect Master, but now they are given off DVD while he's out back smoking a cigarette!

When are people gonna wake up??

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 16:23:40 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Indian giver
Message:
After all, it used to be said that the techniques were nothing without the Grace of the Perfect Master

I was just having a discussion with a premie co-worker this morning about this. I was trying to make him see that even if Maharaji isn't outright saying he's required for your experience, his demand that you 'keep in touch' implies it. My co-worker said that he just finds M inspiring to listen to. I asked him if he really was listening. If he was, he'd hear Maharaji's self-importance coming through in spades. Sure, M says that what you're looking for is within (a debatable concept in itself), but he's also making it clear that you're not going to find it if he's not part of the equation. I couldn't get this premie to see that. Big surprise, eh?

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 11:48:36 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Indian giver
Message:
mention the mistress.
mention how he shunned his mom for 17 years till she died and THEN realized he loved her.
mention the first hand reports of rawats drug use. From that female residence insructor that malibu mole talked to and also the guy Jim talked to. Mike Donner.

that stuff may help.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 18:46:06 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Promises, promises
Message:
Why even humiliate people by having them make these subservient promises? If he is 'so inspiring to listen to', why do people have to be told to 'keep in touch'? Wouldn't that happen anyway?

The one about not disclosing the techniques is I guess just good business practice. A bit like software licenses which prohibit the user from distributing the goodies, because it eats into the company's profits. Make sure every interested person gets channeled through the system, fed the hype, sold the SmartCard® and gradually funneled deeper into the cult with this esoteric carrot dangling always slightly out of reach until the 'Master' decides they are 'ready'. To watch the DVD!!!

What was the other promise? Oh yes, 'give k. a fair chance'. Well doesn't THAT need defining? If you read the FAQs, you note that these days 'everybody's experience differs'. So how does one decide that k. has actually worked? If you can't compare notes, for instance, and as a matter of fact they are instructed NOT to discuss experiences during breaks in the K-DVD session, isn't there a chance you might feel you're the only one NOT experiencing anything? Could that be the point, perhaps? How long is 'a fair chance'. One year? Five? Twenty?

This is why the 'process' is so important. The average Joe Schmoe would give it a week or two, tell his or her pals to give the techniques a shot, then they'd end up in some bar having a laugh about it and concluding it was all a crock. But take Joe and slowly inculcate him into seeing this 'gift' as being elusive, desirable and exclusive, carefully stage manage his exposure to the right videos and the right amount of peer pressure, then when he is positively drooling and has one hand on his wallet already, nail him with these Faustian pledges.

Oh but it's not a cult, is it premies, because it says so in the FAQs?

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 02:23:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Good points, all of them, Rob
Message:
It's so true that Maharaji's 'relationship' with his premies is about as natural as an iron lung. All that programmed emotion. Yech! Weirdest thing, of course, is how accustomed everyone gets to it. Cults look so funny to outsiders. But never inside.

I wonder what Heaven's Gaters talked about when they did the laundry.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 19:52:30 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Nice post, Rob
Message:
It's nice to have you using your thinking cap on this side of the fence where, if I may say so, it belongs. Hopefully, it will help to make a dent in those stuck in cult think. One question, though. You were one of the more clever premies that came here to apply his logic skills on behalf of the cult. Now you've come full circle. Personally, I think you make a lot more sense now than then. But what I'd like to know is how do you feel now, compared to then. More honest, perhaps?
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:11:35 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Back where I belong
Message:
Thanks Jerry that was kind of you.

I actually don't feel like I'm 'using' logic now at all, compared to a year ago when I would spend ages trying to 'construct' a post in a way which would handle the objections of whomever I was discussing with. Fortunately (!) this was most often Jim, who had my technique and logic down pat.

I would describe myself now as being clear about the nature and methodology of the cult, and honest about my past involvement and susceptibility. It took a long time to forgive myself and to get over the fear, literally the 'fear of God' which had been drummed into me for 20 odd years.

I honestly don't hate m., I simply think he is a man without honor. I don't even totally dismiss the meditation techniques as being bogus - I believe they do provide some benefit to certain people - and if someone were to 'take over' from m. and offer the meditation for what it is, openly, honestly, with or without Eastern trimmings as do many other religious and yogic teachers in the West, I would be all for it.

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 13:56:47 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Back where I belong
Message:
Great post, Rob - thanks. The 'fear of God' (or rather 'fear of rotten vegetables) was the hardest thing for me too. I WANTED to stop practicing K but was afraid I would go crazy - seriously.

I wanted to add that I think the weakest point in M's and EV's 'logic' is the relationship between the meditation techniqes and Maharaji. Gail once wrote on here that three people in her community had just received knowledge (after going through the whole aspirant procedure), and the aspirant coordinator was upset because none of them seemed to understand the relationship between M & K AFTER receiving the techniques. I am guessing that happens more and more nowadays since these people don't hear about M being the Perfect Master, Satguru, or whatever, unless some older premies let it slip. And of course, they don't discuss the rotten vegetables any more, thank god.

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 00:52:53 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Maharaji and Knowledge--confusing
Message:
I never could figure out the nature of Maharaji's relationship to Knowledge for the longest time, even though I was told upfront that goomradji was the Lord of the Universe in the 70's.

Knowledge was supposed to be this wonderful, blissful, way-out fabulous thing and here it was being taught by this slimy, slick, evil looking young guy. I was a very intuitive child and I was afraid of photos of Maharaji that I saw--afraid of his eyes. (I know I have said this before here and it sounds weird!) To me, he seemed to be on this tremendous ego trip, yet he was helping people to be more spiritually realized? I just never got this and still don't.

One time, when I mentioned this here, a premie told me I was just bigoted against the way an Indian looked--how outrageous! It had nothing to do with his 'looks' and everything to do with how he carried himself and how he looks at people and the camera with his eyes and how I perceived his treatment of others around him. He is full of distain.

How could someone like that have the gift that satisfies all the longings of the human heart? It just doesn't make any sense.

Hey, by the way. I read on JM's pages that the ashrams closed down in 1983. Do you or anyone know when Maharaji made the announcement that he was closing the ashrams? Does anyone have a date on this? Thanks!

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 04:12:42 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Maharaji and Knowledge--confusing
Message:
VP said:

How could someone like that have the gift that satisfies all the longings of the human heart? It just doesn't make any sense.

I liked that; so true. So easy to see from the outside, right? I used to 'adore' him and now he looks EVIL to me!

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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 23:10:53 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Back where I belong
Message:
Katie, Sulekshna bay told me before showing the techniques of meditacion,looking at my eyes, that if I ever stop practicing I was going to go crazy!! I believed that for so long...She BTW was the nanny of Lard...I thought of her as lovely now as evil...

Where did we get that idea and fear? He abused our trust, trust we put on him because it was a requirement to REALIZE GOD

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:22:52 (GMT)
From: Amigo
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Hola SB, quien eres...?
Message:
Hola SB. Quien Eres? De que pais? Soy un 'ex-premie' que hice servicio en varios paises latinos. Me interesa saber si los premies de alla (Sud-america o Espana) son todavia devotos o si simplemente se fueron o si hay verdaderos 'ex-premies' alla. Seria interesante conversar en espanol con algunos de ellos, no?
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:52:09 (GMT)
From: SBN
Email: None
To: Amigo
Subject: Hola SB, quien eres...?
Message:
Ve al foro! Te 'veo' ahi!

;)

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:14:35 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: SBN
Subject: The post above is mine...SBN? mistake. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:17:57 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Back where I belong
Message:
Sulekshna bay told me before showing the techniques of meditacion,looking at my eyes, that if I ever stop practicing I was going to go crazy!! I
believed that for so long...She BTW was the nanny of Lard...I thought of her as lovely now as evil...

Lurkex responded:

then lovely now evil...? actually a real cult victim herself, from early childhood. Very badly treated by Lardie, in heartbreaking ways perhaps only a close, female, Indian devotee from the early days could be badly treated.

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:03:32 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Back in time
Message:
Hi!!

then lovely now evil...? actually a real cult victim herself, from early childhood. Very badly treated by Lardie, in heartbreaking ways perhaps only a close, female, Indian devotee from the early days could be badly treated.

Yes, another victim!! I heard that Maharaji didn't even wanted to talk with her and that she used to hide behind the bushes of Alton Rd, and that Maharaji sent her to India again because of that. There are a lot of victims around...That is why Elan Vital need to begin REASONING!! It needs to stop. He is no GOD.

My perceptions then were totally different than today!! I needed to wake up to see the evil part of what I heard that day! Sulekshna may be a victim but what came out on that Knowledge session I see today as evil. An intent to scare people and to manipulate them.

Is this your first time posting here? Are you a premie? Maybe not; you said Lardie...

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 19:32:18 (GMT)
From: LURKEX
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Back in time
Message:
Definitely an ex-premie. It's been 15 years. I 'did service' for Sulakshna and she passed on the abuse (treated me the way she had been treated).
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:25:05 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: if someone were to 'take over' from m-go 4 it!(nt)
Message:
if someone were to 'take over' from m-go 4 it!(nt)
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 20:32:49 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I'm not volunteering for the job.......
Message:
...but if I did, it would be 500 bucks a head, available on DVD or downloadable on the internet. Feet kissing optional - maybe a 'foot' jpeg on the website you could pucker up to in the privacy of your home!
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Date: Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 14:00:15 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: I'm not volunteering for the job.......
Message:
<'a pictures worth ... '
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:23:47 (GMT)
From: GErrrrry
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Patton Pending???
Message:
If you changed it a little, maybe, sticking one finger up your noise and pressing your eyeballs with your elbows and simultaneously biting your tongue while wearing earplugs, I bet you could patton it, by george. (copyrught) (tm)
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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 05:28:00 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: GErrrrry
Subject: Patton Pending???
Message:
Gerrrrrr,

You mean that's NOT how it's done? Shit no wonder I never 'realized' it:) LOL

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 04:25:09 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Lois Lane
Subject: I do judge you rawat. 2 thumbs down
Message:
WHat a bastard. He gives the teacher one of his evil eye looks and then blames her for saying something imperfectly. What she MEANT to say was 'where the hell is amars mother, you are hatefilled.'

He can judge me all he wants the lying scumbag. He has no power.

'I have seen the logic of the mind at work' Sheesh! he is as mad as ever.

You know, there are premies that are unaware of the ex site and our threatened appearances at his talks. They MUST be unnerved by the paramilitary overkill of security and all the levels of hurdles just to go hear a 'free talk' from just another regular person. He DOES and always has used his angry voice to project power or domination or authority. It is pathetic.

We should keep the pressure up on his programs. Definately rachet up the confrontation a notch. Christians in other third world countries would step up to the plate and deliver handouts.
Not thier handouts for gods sake, ours.

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Date: Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 13:09:01 (GMT)
From: Politically Incorrectman
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I do judge you rawat. 2 thumbs down
Message:
The Rawats, including all brothers etc should just fuck off back to India where they belong and spread their medieval bullshit over there where it will be appreciated by that superstitious culture. They are not welcome in the West. They have definitely outstayed their welcome.
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