Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 22:07:26 (GMT)
From: Jul 07, 2000 To: Jul 17, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


JamesC. -:- My apologies to SB and the forum. -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:29:59 (GMT)
__ SB -:- And what do I have to do with anyhting?? (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:16:18 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- And what do I have to do with anyhting?? (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:43:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- And what do I have to do with anyhting?? (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 20:54:20 (GMT)
__ JamesC. -:- p.s. -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:36:35 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Admin -:- p.s. -:- Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 12:32:58 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- p.s. -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:12:30 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- p.s. -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:12:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- please no! -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:41:42 (GMT)

Rated-X -:- Constant recruting efforts -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:27:45 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Constant recruting efforts -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:06:30 (GMT)

Joe -:- Understanding the Effects of a Cult -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 17:46:33 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Psychological Manipulation Used By Maharaji -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:02:27 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- Couldn't have said it better myself.Right one! nt -:- Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 02:55:26 (GMT)
__ __ JtF-Install of notion of -:- Mr. Mind makes M responsible for premie suicide -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 15:38:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ VP -:- M responsible for premie suicide -:- Thurs, Jul 13, 2000 at 03:22:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lurkex -:- Mr. Mind makes M responsible for premie suicide -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 19:55:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Crazy premies,suicide, pediophilia,psychological -:- Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 03:03:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- No, jtf, they weren't ALL suffering before -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 16:20:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JtF -:- Thanks, Jim -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 17:18:03 (GMT)
__ __ JtF -:- At what age does rawat take responsibility? -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 11:40:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- At what age does rawat take responsibility? -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 17:40:51 (GMT)
__ __ chr -:- Psychological Manipulation Used By Maharaji -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:28:36 (GMT)
__ __ TD -:- Psychological Manipulation Used By Maharaji -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 23:47:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Cow Poo -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 21:58:05 (GMT)
__ __ Lotus Eater -:- Psychological Manipulation Used By Maharaji -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 22:30:29 (GMT)
__ __ VP -:- Psychological Manipulation Used By Maharaji -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:10:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Manipulation in the Aspirant Process -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:19:13 (GMT)

SB -:- The Spanish Forum is being harrassed -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:28:45 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Spanish Forum weird visit -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:41:50 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Spanish Forum weird visit -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:13:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ VP -:- Thanks for the laugh, Katie -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:35:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks for the laugh, Katie (ot) -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:39:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Thanks for the laugh, Katie (ot) -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 02:10:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Spanish Forum weird visit -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:29:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Spanish Forum weird visit -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:40:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ VP -:- Spanish Forum weird visit -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 02:15:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Spanish Forum weird visit -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 02:11:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Zen -:- Spanish Forum weird visit -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 05:36:01 (GMT)
__ Amigo -:- The Spanish Forum is being harrassed -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:27:47 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Here is the URL: http://www.ex-premie.org/spanish/ -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:43:28 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- The Spanish Forum is being harrassed -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:19:15 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- The Spanish Forum -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:48:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- The Spanish Forum -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:46:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- OT: Even if the boys laugh: You don't look like it -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 02:09:08 (GMT)
__ Zen -:- The Spanish Forum is being harrassed -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:16:00 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- The Spanish Forum is being harrassed -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 20:56:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zen -:- The Spanish Forum is being harrassed -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 05:25:12 (GMT)

Jim -:- Proof that it's not a cult (from ELK) -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:50:31 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Proof that it's not a cult (from ELK) -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 22:33:08 (GMT)

gerry -:- What happened to the link with 'House of Drek' ??? -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:28:45 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- This is NUTS !!! -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:36:48 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- This is NUTS !!! - not completely -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:57:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- This is NUTS !!! - not completely -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:09:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- This is NUTS !!! - not completely -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:19:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:41:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I'm not sure that Roger gives a shite -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:39:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Too bad, Roger! -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:37:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- I'm not sure that Roger gives a shite -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 23:02:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You did but I didn't -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:41:53 (GMT)

JtF-question to EV re. .. -:- rawRat's famous 'Rotting Vegetable' Satsang -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 13:31:16 (GMT)
__ Guru Maharaji Ji, 1974 -:- Rotting Vegetables -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 14:42:16 (GMT)
__ __ JtF -:- Rotting Vegetables-Thanks -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:26:07 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- rawRat's famous 'thousand pieces 'Satsang -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 13:35:40 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- rawRat's famous 'thousand pieces 'Satsang -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:35:54 (GMT)
__ __ JtF -:- rawRat's famous 'Beware of Sharks'Satsang -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:29:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- You gotta laauughhh ... ha hah haa hhaaahahahaaaa -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:08:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Worzel Gummidge -:- ... so premies are non compost mentis? hur hur(nt) -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:24:23 (GMT)

JtF -:- Class action suit of Hare Krishna's/child abuse -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 09:49:38 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Hey maybe we could get goober under RICO (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:00:31 (GMT)
__ __ JtF -:- Hey maybe we could get goober under RICO (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:32:15 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- New page on Ex-Premie.org .... -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 09:42:07 (GMT)
__ TD -:- This is BRILLIANT! I'm so glad it's on this site. -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 23:21:42 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- This is BRILLIANT! I'm so glad it's on this site. -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:26:13 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Call it FUQ! ('Forever Unanswered Questions)nt -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:12:15 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- That's good -- a FUQs section (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:21:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Or maybe 'Still Unanswered Questions' -- SUQs (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:25:37 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Aspirant of the Year -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 13:32:31 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- and what about tonight's pilgrimage to that holy -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 13:41:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- On y va. (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 14:55:55 (GMT)

Hypothetical -:- Press releases -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 03:50:12 (GMT)

CHR -:- Elan Vitals 's FAQ(long post) -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 02:50:58 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Thanks CHR, great post....... -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:00:22 (GMT)
__ chr -:- Elan Vitals 's FAQ(long post) -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 04:44:05 (GMT)
__ CHR -:- I'll try again -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 03:40:11 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- dont reccomend honesty to rawat, lying helps to -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 22:40:36 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Some commentary on EV's FAQs -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 21:15:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Great Point G!! (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 22:08:22 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- CHR, I suggest you copy and email your excellent -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 21:06:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- CHR, I suggest you copy and email your excellent -:- Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 03:25:06 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- The man is NO good! -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 06:14:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- That's good enough for me -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 09:56:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CHR -:- Your site and House of Drek -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 14:23:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Your site and House of Drek -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 14:55:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- That's good enough for me TOO! -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 14:18:13 (GMT)

TD -:- Is this more evidence the M cult is crumbling? -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 00:52:00 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Is this more evidence the M cult is crumbling? -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 01:14:12 (GMT)
__ __ TD -:- Is this more evidence the M cult is crumbling? -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 01:59:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Felix the... -:- Is this more evidence the M cult is crumbling? -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 13:50:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Attn FA - the Cat crept in and crapped... -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:41:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Attn FA - the Cat crept in and crapped... -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:20:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- He's right - it IS personal -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:09:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- He's right - it IS personal -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:24:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Felix the ... -:- He's right - it IS personal -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 02:08:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ chr -:- He's right - it IS personal -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 06:53:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Felix the ... -:- He's right - it IS personal -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 12:03:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- YOU thought he was God -:- Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 17:42:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Felix the... -:- YOU thought he was God -:- Thurs, Jul 13, 2000 at 01:01:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ chr -:- He's right - it IS personal -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 14:23:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Felix the ... -:- He's right - it IS personal -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 14:52:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ chr -:- He's right - it IS personal -:- Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 01:45:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Felix the...... -:- He's right - it IS personal -:- Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 08:28:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Excusse me Felix but... -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 02:28:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Felix the ... -:- Excusse me Felix but... -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 07:03:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Excusse me Felix but... -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 13:29:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Felix the ... -:- Excusse me Felix but... -:- Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 14:45:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Watch Felix rationalize.... -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:17:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ TD -:- That's it Gerry! It's now Solo Ashram Phase 2... -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 22:41:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Is this more evidence the M cult is crumbling? -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 02:13:00 (GMT)

Jim -:- Premies should have restricted privileges here -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 18:47:03 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Premies should have restricted privileges here -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:56:24 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Premies should have restricted privileges here -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 20:02:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ VP -:- Premies should have restricted privileges here -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 21:11:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Are You Kidding??? -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 20:24:21 (GMT)
__ __ P-man -:- Premies should have restricted privileges here -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:40:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Premies should have restricted privileges here -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 20:29:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ VP -:- Premies should have restricted privileges here -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 21:08:11 (GMT)
__ __ VP -:- Joe, you took the words right out of -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:01:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Agree with Joe and VP -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 20:10:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ oops -:- Joe, you took the words right out of -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:18:46 (GMT)
__ cq -:- yeah - like putting up or shutting up: -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:46:35 (GMT)
__ Michael -:- Premies should have restricted privileges here -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 17:23:51 (GMT)
__ Keith -:- Premies should have restricted privileges here -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 01:03:10 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Jim is a vital force for honesty.(nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 13, 2000 at 00:19:14 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- More likely he's just bored by twats! -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 17:39:47 (GMT)
__ __ Gerry -:- FA's Count me as one vote to get rid of Keith (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 03:55:45 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- Seems not to be so hard -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 00:29:51 (GMT)
__ __ VP -:- Seems not to be so hard -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 14:55:32 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Seems not to be so hard -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 01:52:17 (GMT)
__ Harry -:- Premies should have restricted privileges here -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 00:14:37 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- Premies should have restricted privileges here -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 01:11:32 (GMT)
__ shp -:- Premies already have restricted privileges here. -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 21:47:07 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Premies already have restricted privileges here. -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 05:57:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Premies already have restricted privileges here. -:- Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 14:18:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Premies already have restricted privileges here. -:- Thurs, Jul 13, 2000 at 01:19:22 (GMT)
__ Powerman -:- Premies should have restricted privileges here -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:41:41 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- I agree but lower the number -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:51:03 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Premies should have restricted privileges here -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 19:59:02 (GMT)
__ VP -:- How feasible is that in reality? -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 19:15:31 (GMT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- How feasible is that in reality? -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 21:39:23 (GMT)
__ __ VP -:- I wasn't totally clear before -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 19:27:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- I wasn't totally clear before -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:20:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ VP -:- I wasn't totally clear before -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:08:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ P-Man -:- I wasn't totally clear before -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:41:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- I wasn't totally clear before -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:49:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- I wasn't totally clear before -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 17:33:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- It's not that tough -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:39:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- What you are saying is that.... -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:53:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ [edited] -:- edited [see inside] -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 12:44:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- an ex-premie -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 14:14:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ FA -:- an ex-premie -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:06:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- SB to FA -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:26:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- What you are saying is that.... -:- Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 00:50:43 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Good Post Jim!! (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 19:11:19 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:29:59 (GMT)
From: JamesC.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My apologies to SB and the forum.
Message:
Please forgive my absentmindedness...obviously people need to protect their anonymity. I just wasn't thinking. Please accept my sincerist apologies. I read off and on for about 6 months now, and I once took some classes in NYC with an 'SB' and had this picture in my head that it was her.

My computer is very old and breaks down all the time, so I am not always able to respond etc. Otherwise I would have apologized sooner.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:16:18 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: JamesC.
Subject: And what do I have to do with anyhting?? (nt)
Message:
?nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:43:28 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: And what do I have to do with anyhting?? (nt)
Message:
Hi SB -
James C asked if you were a certain person with the initials SB, and the FA deleted his post. That's why he's apologizing.

Take care (and thanks for the kitty cats!!!)
Love,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 20:54:20 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: And what do I have to do with anyhting?? (nt)
Message:
Ok, thanks.

I'm glad you like them... ;)

s

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:36:35 (GMT)
From: JamesC.
Email: None
To: JamesC.
Subject: p.s.
Message:
I started a new thread because the subject matter of the thread the FA wrote to me and someone else was quite horrible. As a matter of fact even the idea that anyone might confuse my name, in ANY sort of misunderstanding with a pedophile is almost enough for me to not write/post here at all. I would imagine that if anyone were unfairly accused of such atrocities, by the Forum Administrator him/herself, it would be 'cyberlibel' no?

But apparently Bjorn has issues, and thanks to people like Katie and the rest will seek out help in a more appropriate place.

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Date: Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 12:32:58 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: forumfour@hotmail.com
To: JamesC.
Subject: p.s.
Message:
Thanks for the thread, James. I was not in any doubt that you and Bjorn were different people, but I think Bjorn misread the post and thought I was accusing him of also being you.

As you obviously now understand, I had to delete the thread to protect SB's anonymity, and would have done so regardless of whether it was a premie shit-stirrer or an absent-minded ex posting.

Glad it sounds more like the latter than the former...

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:12:30 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: JamesC.
Subject: p.s.
Message:
Looks like it wasn't your day. I don't think you need to apologise for an innocent request to know who someone is. In the real world that's quite normal.

Unfortunate about the other thing but nobody here is suggesting you have anything to do with child abuse etc. There was a loose cannon firing, that's all and you just happened to get in the way.

Like I said, it wasn't your day.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:12:22 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: JamesC.
Subject: p.s.
Message:
Bjorn comes here originally as a cult apologist, with a ''special'' interest in the Jagdeo case. He was rude and insensitive to say the least, in his insistent questioning and request for details. In a blantant attempt to lessen the impact of having a child molester in M's cult, he say HE had sexual feelings for a five year old girl when he was a teenager.

Yeah, I'd say he has issues. And you are right, he needs to go elsewhere to 'seek out help.' I don't think Katie is the solution to his problems.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:41:42 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: please no!
Message:
I have ALWAYS told him that this is not the place to deal with his issues regarding sexual abuse, which are sort of intertwined with his issues about Maharaji, IMHO.

By the way - to JamesC - innocent mistake, and happens all the time. We've all done something like that here.

Take care -
Katie
(definitely not a therapist!)

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:27:45 (GMT)
From: Rated-X
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Constant recruting efforts
Message:
Last week I called the local information line, in the month of July there are introductory programs, learning more programs, and programs for people preparing to receive knowledge. The exact same crap that I was sick of when I left 6 months ago. The propagation just goes on and on. There is so much emphasis it gets sickening. And it's been like that for as long as I can remember. If x amount of people recieve knowledge in the community, premies are proud, like they have achieved something. On the other hand if some people that have had knowledge for say 10, 15, or 20 years leave, you don't hear about it, it's one of the big taboos. Like the people never existed, you don't even want to know why they left. 90 % of premies do leave, and nobody questions why, they just go on trying to find more. I questioned and that's how I came upon this web site. I never felt the urge to invite anybody into knowledge, nothing much was happening for me why should something miraculas happen to others. If I hung around for so long it's because I was a hopeful, maybe a bit more effort, more service etc. and something will click for me. But after more than 15 years your expections dwindle. It's a relief not feeling obliged to attend boring videos or do service. At programs premies never say what they think or feel. You only hear a rehash of what m said, everybody agrees, and all is well and fine. It's just so liberating being out of that.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:06:30 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Rated-X
Subject: Constant recruting efforts
Message:
Amazing isn't it, how a bit of breath meditation can be blown up out of all proportion into this ridiculous cult. Talk about The Emperor's New Clothes. There's nothing there but waffle, froth and bubble but it keeps the money coming in. (To Maharaji's pocket).
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 17:46:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Understanding the Effects of a Cult
Message:
There is this great book called 'Captive Hearts, Captive Minds: Freedom and Recovery from Cults and Abusive Relationships, That has a lot of good information about recovery from involvement in a cult. Here is an excerpt:

Individual Differences Affecting Recovery

Each person's experience with a cult is different. Some may dabble with a meditation technique but never get drawn into taking 'advanced courses' or moving to the ashram. Others may quickly give up all they have, including college, career, possessions, home, or family, to do missionary work in a foreign country or move into cult lodgings.

After a cult involvement, some people carry on with their lives seemingly untouched; more typically, others may encounter a variety of emotional problems and troubling psychological difficulties ranging from inability to sleep, restlessness, and lack of direction to panic attacks, memory loss, and depression. To varying degrees they may feel guilty, ashamed, enraged, lost, confused, betrayed, paranoid, and in a sort of fog.

Assessing the Damage

Why are some people so damaged by their cult experience while others walk away seemingly unscathed? There are predisposing personality factors and levels of vulnerability that may enhance a person's continued vulnerability and susceptibility while in the group. All these factors govern the impact of the cult experience on the individual and the potential for subsequent damage. In assessing this impact, three different stages of the cult experience—before, during, and after—need to be examined.

Before Involvement
Vulnerability factors before involvement include a person's age, prior history of emotional problems, and certain personality characteristics.

During Involvement
Length of time spent in the group
There is quite a difference in the impact a cult will have on a person if she or he is a member for only a few weeks, as compared to months or years. A related factor is the amount of exposure to the indoctrination process and the various levels of control that exist in the group.

Intensity and severity of the thought-reform program
The intensity and severity of cults' efforts at conversion and control vary in different groups and in the same group at different times. Members who are in a peripheral, 'associate' status may have very different experiences from those who are full-time, inner-core members.

Specific methods will also vary in their effect. An intense training workshop over a week or weekend that includes sleep deprivation, hypnosis, and self-exposure coupled with a high degree of supervision and lack of privacy is likely to produce faster changes in a participant than a group process using more subtle and long-term methods of change.

Poor or inadequate medical treatments
A former cult member's physical condition and attitude toward physical health may greatly impact postcult adjustments.

Loss of outside support
The availability of a network of family and friends and the amount of outside support certainly will bear on a person's reintegration after a cult involvement.

Skewed or nonexistent contact with family and former friends tends to increase members' isolation and susceptibility to the cult's worldview. The reestablishment of those contacts is important to help offset the loss and loneliness the person will quite naturally feel.

After involvement
Various factors can hasten healing and lessen postcult difficulties at this stage. Many are related to the psycho-educational process. Former cult members often spend years after leaving a cult in relative isolation, not talking about or dealing with their cult experiences. Shame and silence may increase the harm done by the group and can prevent healing.

Understanding the dynamics of cult conversion is essential to healing and making a solid transition to an integrated postcult life. ing session.

Engage in a professionally led exit counselling session.

Educate yourself about cults and thought-reform techniques.

Involve family members and old and new friends in reviewing and evaluating your cult experience.

See a mental health professional or a pastoral counselor, preferably someone who is familiar with or is willing to be educated about cults and common postcult problems.

Attend a support group for former cult members.

The following sets of questions have proven helpful to former cult members trying to make sense of their experience.

Reviewing your recruitment

1. What was going on in your life at the time you joined the group or met the person who became your abusive partner?

2. How and where were you approached?

3. What was your initial reaction to or feeling about the leader or group?

4. What first interested you in the group or leader?

5. How were you misled during recruitment?

6. What did the group or leader promise you? Did you ever get it?

7. What didn't they tell you that might have influenced you not to join had you known?

8. Why did the group or leader want you?

Understanding the psychological manipulation used in your group

1. Which controlling techniques were used by your group or leader: chanting, meditation, sleep deprivation, isolation, drugs, hypnosis, criticism, fear. List each technique and how it served the group's purpose.

2. What was the most effective? the least effective?

3. What technique are you still using that is hard to give up? Are you able to see any effects on you when you practice these?

4. What are the group's beliefs and values? How did they come to be your beliefs and values?

Examining your doubts

1. What are your doubts about the group or leader now?

2. Do you still believe the group or leader has all or some of the answers?

3. Are you still afraid to encounter your leader or group members on the street?

4. Do you ever think of going back? What is going on in your mind when this happens?

5. Do you believe your group or leader has any supernatural or spiritual power to harm you in any way?

6. Do you believe you are cursed by God for having left the group?

Excerpted from Captive Hearts, Captive Minds: Freedom and Recovery from Cults and Abusive Relationships by Madeleine Tobias and Janja Lalich (Hunter House Publishers, (800)266-5892). ©1994.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:02:27 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Psychological Manipulation Used By Maharaji
Message:
For some reason, I sometimes have a hard time admitting that actual psychological manipulation went on in Maharaji's cult, and that I was deeply affected by it. I think part of the problem is that I can't tell if the manipulation was intentional or not (which is really irrelevent anyway) and because in retrospect I feel embarrassed and stupid for ever having fallen for something that now seems so incredibly transparent and lame.

But I think Maharaji, and as parrotted and repeated by the other members of the cult, used various 'controlling techniques' such as the following:

Fear -- down below, posters have quoted the 'rotting vegetables,' 'break into a thousand pieces' and other speeches Maharaji gave that spoke of the terrible calamities that would befall someone who didn't practice knowledge, or have faith in him. Another one was what he said on Christmas 1979 (when he was 22 years old) that you would go to hell (just like Kabir said) if you didn't have total faith and devotion to Maharaji.

The other fears were that you would slip up just for a minute and get lost forever in maya. Maharaji told a bunch of Hindu stories that stressed that, including the one about the guy to bent down to get a drink of water and ended up, horror of horrors, falling away from the master and getting married and having kids.

There also was an implicit fear of displeasing Maharaji and this still exists. And it isn't because his followers love him, it's because they fear him. I think this is the reason that premies are loathe to ever criticize Maharaji, especially publicly where he might find out about it, or to do anything that might reflect negatively on him, or displease him. After all, most premies still think Maharaji has divine powers and might be able to throw oneu accross five universes, or whatever the saying was. I think there is still genuine fear about this among premies, and even many ex-premies. It takes awhile for fear to get de-programmed.

As premies, especially ashram premies, we also lived continually with sleep deprivation, a lack of privacy, isolation from our families and friends from before we received knowledge, and a terrible attack on our self-esteem by constanting being told, by Maharaji and others that we were unworthy of the 'gift' we had been given and, like M said at Kissimmee in 1979, we didn't even have the right to look at him. All these things tended to break down one's ability to trust one's own feelings and judgments, and tended to make one more dependent on Maharaji and the cult.

I think the 'practice' of knowledge was also a control technique. First, I think meditation was used to stop us from thinking and having doubts. Then, of course, there was Maharaji's commandment to 'NEVER LEAVE ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND', which was a recipe for self-censorship and mind control. Even though Maharaji doesn't talk about that commandment anymore, it is still engrained in the premie culture, and, of course, Maharaji lacks the will or the courage to explain that it was non-sensical or wrong, if that's what he really believes.

There were other manipulations as well. Anything to add?

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Date: Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 02:55:26 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: netguest42@yahoo.com
To: Joe
Subject: Couldn't have said it better myself.Right one! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 15:38:16 (GMT)
From: JtF-Install of notion of
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Mr. Mind makes M responsible for premie suicide
Message:
Certainly, we all know of cases of premie suicide. These people were no doubt suffering before K. However, their master made more real these voices in their head. They now had a name to call it-Mr. Mind. They now had a solution for it-surrender to M and practice his K. (Remember back then K was advertised as for everyone. It had to be because the whole world was going to come to Guru Maharaj Ji's feet). When these voices went unchecked, no doubt guilt and failure set in to these poor people. Instead of M and K, these people needed professional help. (Remember, it was not until well into the 80's, that M -for legal reasons only no doubt-backed off the K is cure-all theme and admitted that in some cases his premies should seek professional help.

IMO, this along with the Jagdeo cover-up issue(Malibugate)are the two most damning charges against rawat.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 13, 2000 at 03:22:11 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JtF-Install of notion of
Subject: M responsible for premie suicide
Message:
If you remember, Maharaji said that he would give you peace if you surrendered your life to him. That was a very irresponsible statement to make. There were people who COUNTED on him for peace of mind, and he was unable to deliver that to them. (People you are talking about who needed professional help and such)

I also know that a lot of premies were disillusioned when he changed the rules in the early '80's. It was sort of like he said, 'oops! Just kidding about all that stuff I've been telling you for 10 years.' How do you supposed that effected people who were unstable, yet totally devoted to him?

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 19:55:56 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: JtF-Install of notion of
Subject: Mr. Mind makes M responsible for premie suicide
Message:
I completely agree with this. There are a million other charges, but the actually damning ones are those two. People didn't get the help they needed to deal with the trauma of being with MJ and part of the reason was that he told them not to. 'I don't want my premies mucking around in their own garbage.' In some other groups there was at least some kind of compassion and help for the so-called crazies who, like canaries in the coalmine, couldn't stop the insanity that was being generated in their heads. Someone once mentioned that even the army has a great policy with suicide victims.

And the Jagdeo thing is unconscionable. How difficult is it to apologize and take responsibility? It would even be good PR for Lardie. Come to think of it, his stupidity in maintaining denial might bring him down! When I think that Judy used to seem so sweet and caring and motherly and now, in her late forties, she's still enabling this crap!

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Date: Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 03:03:13 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: netguest42@yahoo.com
To: everyone
Subject: Crazy premies,suicide, pediophilia,psychological
Message:
This man and I emphasise man, not Lord, has done some real DAMAGE! When are we going to get our dues? He owes alot to families and victims. Anyone up for a class action? $50.00 a piece. We could get a great lawyer for that amount!
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 16:20:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JtF-Install of notion of
Subject: No, jtf, they weren't ALL suffering before
Message:
I agree with everything you say and thank you for saying it. With one exception: I know of at least one premie suicide who I have every reason to believe was just plain fine before Maharaji fucked with his brain. Dave Wener. I've said much about Dave over time here. Indeed, his memory was a big factor in making me think something had to be done about this guru.

Dave was a regular guy I went to summer camp with as a teenager. What can I tell you? He was just a fun-loving, regular guy. Now, I've talked with his sister recently. Knew her at camp too but she was a year or so younger. Pam got knowledge too but left the cult soon after. She tells me that Dave was indeed having a somewhat difficult passage into adulthood (like, who doesn't in some ways?). But I knew Dave then and I knew him when he started getting very, very committed to 'realizing Knowledge' and 'growing' as a devotee. I saw the changes in him as he rejected 'chit chat', idle humour and all the other tempering, just-plain human apsects of being a person. In other words, I saw Dave strive to be a 'good premie'.

And yes, I was there when Dave started wrestling with his doubts. Maharaji's marriage, the Millenium debalce and the family split really got to him, I guess. He started thinking that maybe, just maybe, Maharaji WASN'T God, if you can imagine. And yet he still kept such a big altar in his head. It was a deadly combination, let me tell you! Dave literally sacrificed himself to Maharaji. He hung himself because he took to heart Maharaji's fear satsangs, especially the warning that it was better to be dead than to leave the Lord and follow one's mind. I was there. I know. I talked with Dave less than half a day before he did it. Just the two of us having a little 'satsang', you know.

Funny, the cult gave the family so little information or consideration that, swear to God, I had to persuade his brother as recently as last year that Dave wasn't murdered.

Well, in a way .......

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 17:18:03 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, Jim
Message:
How very sad. It reminds me of other people I know who have been totally fucked up by this shithead. I'm more of a suffering and pain guy than suicidal but looking at the guilt of failure I lived with for almost 25 years,I wonder how I did it without totally losing it. I was unable to just look and see that I was not alone in my fear of failure. I guess that's manipulation!
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 11:40:05 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: At what age does rawat take responsibility?
Message:
Joe,

Your having to mention that rawat was 22 on Xmas '79 got me to thinking (again) about the EV FAQ's. There they use the old excuse of rawat being a child/teenager to give them wiggle room.

It would be nice(it'll never happen)if they were to give out an age where rawat takes responsibility for his words/satsang. I certainly was aware as a child/teenager that I was not God/>than God but even if one were to buy the 'this is the way he was brought up crap', there is a real need to know when he figured out the truth.

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 17:40:51 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JtF
Subject: At what age does rawat take responsibility?
Message:
Good point. But I think the bigger issue is that Maharaji is now 42 and at least at that age one would think one is an adult and should be expected to accept responsbility for one's actions, statements, inactions and silence, even if they were done when he was a teenager.

I think most ex-premies are willing to accept that Maharaji may have been as indoctrinated as we were, at a very young age, that he was some kind of divine being, and he actually believed it for awhile. But as he aged, especially in light of how he has scaled back his statements, and accepted an insiginificant role as the leader of a few thousand die-hard followers from the 70s, rather than saying that the whole world would receive knowledge, he clearly knows he was none of those things, but has never accepted responsbility for it. According to Elan Vital, it was the fault of his 'culture', the people who came to the West with him, and the gullible Westerners and their 'concepts.'

Elan Vital exemplifies the cult characteristics that the premies do: the inability to criticize the leader. The most they can say is that he is 'enigmatic.'

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:28:36 (GMT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Psychological Manipulation Used By Maharaji
Message:
Hi Joe,It was-and I suspect still is-very much a part of the Maharaji/premie culture to never criticise M. Plenty of people criticised the organisation and the premies-any fuck ups were of course their fault, never Maharaji's. M reinforced this by regular ridicule of initiators and community coordinators at programs. Even after I had left M, it took me a long time before I was able to look at him and see his faults, the conditioning was so strong. One thing that helped was that a couple of years after I was completely out, I went to see M speak and give a K review-it was in 1995 I think. As I sat there with a long time instructor who was now also an ex, we both realised what a lot of dribble he talked. I became increasingly irritated at the canned laughter that would erupt at every inane joke or putdown and by the end of it all I was downright angry. When I came out premies came up to me with knowing smiles. The standard comment was 'Where have you been?' as if I'd been on Mars or somewhere or 'Its good to see you back.' One even looked at me with glassy eyes and said with a treacle voice, ' There's really no where else to go or be, is there?' I told her that there were plenty of other places to go and be, and then walked off.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 23:47:39 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Psychological Manipulation Used By Maharaji
Message:
There also was an implicit fear of displeasing Maharaji and this still exists. And it isn't because his followers love him, it's because they fear him. I think this is the reason that premies are loathe to ever criticize Maharaji, especially publicly where he might find out about it, or to do anything that might reflect negatively on him, or displease him. After all, most premies still think Maharaji has divine powers and might be able to throw oneu accross five universes, or whatever the saying was. I think there is still genuine fear about this among premies, and even many ex-premies. It takes awhile for fear to get de-programmed.

This is so true Joe. And that piece from that book was spot on. How EV could read something like that, which defines a cult, and not see all the glaring similarities with M and K - is beyond me!

Actually prior to being a premie, I'd done the odd bit of writing - it was a bit of a sideline passion - but you know while being a premie everytime I'd sit down to write, I was constantly fearful that what I'd write would be wrong and not conscious enough and Maharaji would be angry (even though he'd never see what I wrote) - it was just this stupid fear I had, that actually was so bad - I didn't write for the whole time I was a premie. I certainly believed that M had divine powers, because of so many of the mystical darshan stories that premies would tell me, and I did believe he was like JC and Buddha who legend tells us could do groovy magic things. Fear in displeasing Maharaji is such a debilitating sickness in the premie community. I saw it at a participation event at Amaroo, whereby some premies were quite upset that M had commented negatively on the amount of cow-poo around the place, and they really took it to heart - as though it was their fault, and a major fuck-up that a cow had strayed in and took the odd crap. I mean, get it in perspective.

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 21:58:05 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Cow Poo
Message:
Dear TD,
I remember the cow pat in front of the lotus doorstep incident too, not that long ago. are you recently out of the cult? I am. LE
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 22:30:29 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Psychological Manipulation Used By Maharaji
Message:
He uses isolating techniques of emotional dependency and still does, ie he constantly stresses that family and friends, your children, your neighbour, will let you down, but he says knowledge and the master will never abandon you. He says it's safe and it's cool to give your love to the master, and unsafe and uncool to love anyone else. Then he suggests you be kind and loving with the people around you, after having said that they are the living dead, puppets, dummies with fake smiles among other choice phrases I remember. Oh, and the fear bit, as if that wasn't enough, you only live yourself in remembrance of him.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:10:55 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Psychological Manipulation Used By Maharaji
Message:
A huge manipulation is the aspirant process--for that matter, the entire secrecy surrounding the four techniques. Premies told you how wonderful it was, BUT they couldn't tell you anything more about it. That is a serious psychological manipulation.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:19:13 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Manipulation in the Aspirant Process
Message:
Right VP, I hadn't even gotten to the maniuplation in the aspirant process, that I think TD and Daneane have addressed pretty well.

Right: The premies keep telling the aspirant that the experience of knowledge is so wonderful, but they can't tell them what it is. Maharaji and the instructors do the same thing.

Plus, there isn't any set 'course' or guidelines for how to 'get' knowledge. You just have to be 'ready' and that is entirely subjective and unstated as to what that is. That tends to make many people want it even more, because it's supposed to be so great, you are completely dependent on being 'selected' and if you are, especially because others are invariably rejected, you feel like a part of a special, privileged group.

It's only later that the fear is brought in to keep you from doubting and leaving.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:28:45 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Spanish Forum is being harrassed
Message:
I will translate the 25 pages long nonsense and share it with you guys...

A hint: A premie trying to rescue Lard's reputacion? That is hard work!!

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:41:50 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Spanish Forum weird visit
Message:
I read carefully the whole thing and what happened is easy to see. A premie posted two extra large posts inquiring about all kind of information about the exes'sites.

First, he went on and on talking about many U.S. presidents and their suppossed 'cover up' about what cult is good bussinnes or not. I couldn't follow that much because I know little about most of what he talked about in his message: CIA, FBI...He portrayed himself as a periodist and if he is one, by the way he expresses himself and thought patterns, I'm Snow White. Basically, he asked this questions:

1- Why Americans put a Spanish Forum?
I say, why not? EVERYBODY NEEDS TO KNOW WHO MAHARAJI IS. I pointed to the right I have to participate in a public Forum...and to tell MY SIDE of the story and my experiences within the cult. 'They' are mad because the traffic there has tripled...

2- Who pays for the maintainance of the sites?
I explained what I know. Is very little cost involved and I invited him to read this site to learn directly from others. I don't know if this person, Mr Hack, how he calls himself, knows english. He hasn't answered yet.

3- What was talked in the EXES reunion of April.
I asked him why he wanted to know? That people has the right to travel.

4- Who pay for that meeting?
Elan Vital's mentality. I advice that he finds the people who travel and ask them. Me? hahahaha...

5-Premies were posting absurdities on the Spanish Forum and also posted personal informacion they knew about some exes and their posts were deleted; even that premies received an answer it wasn't good enough. Mr Hack brought the same question. I said to Mr Hack that premies have NO rights to abuse the exes and get into their IP numbers; they were posted there, attached to lies!!

6- he wants to know who pay Roger's lawyer. He wants details of what happened to him. My answer? Ask him.Eamil Roger, that I do not know the details.

7- Why other churches are allowed in the United States? And why we are attacking Maharaji? As saying, Maharaji has the right to exists in our societies. I answer pointing the fact that the U.S. is a country of freedom and that even that he couldn't see it now, Maharaji brainwashed his followers! In my opinion.

Well, I'm a busy mom and I couldn't include all of Mr Hack's message, but more, because it's not very important. When I read his difficult writting and finally understood it, saw that he is just a premie defending Maharaji. Many words, but just that. Right Zen?

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:13:32 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Spanish Forum weird visit
Message:
Hi SB -
I know it's unsettling to get posts like this, but I just had to laugh at two of his questions:

What was talked in the EXES reunion of April.
Relationships, where to get good BBQ, Robyn's teeth, why Americans use insulated coffee mugs, guinea pigs, cats, and other HIGHLY TOP-SECRET topics.

Who pay for that meeting?
This really made me laugh. Yeah, it was a really high-budget series of meetings - Jean-Michel had to sleep on the floor! (I doubt if Maharaji would do that, eh?) We paid our rent, and Jean-Michel and you paid for most of the groceries (double snicker).

Anyway, I hope you can see the funny side of this. You are right that it is the Elan Vital mentality - sheesh!

Lots of love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:35:04 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks for the laugh, Katie
Message:
Why DO American's use insulated coffee mugs?
snicker
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:39:13 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Thanks for the laugh, Katie (ot)
Message:
Not only that, J-M says they are very poorly designed because they have an uncloseable hole in the top (he is right, btw - I have spilled so much coffee in my car that I had to throw away my seat covers).

It's one of those things you just do not notice until you are in a foreign country. Brian's question when he came back from England was 'why don't they have doorknobs on the outside doors of their houses?' (snicker).

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 02:10:35 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks for the laugh, Katie (ot)
Message:
Imagine if they knew about my mate?? The tea? Remember? ROFL!
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:29:05 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Spanish Forum weird visit
Message:
But the fuuny thing was that before leaving today I couldn't help but wanting to read it...so much CIA, FBI, Bush, Regan, etc...y at the end was all a fiasco...I thought was something serious. His writting really got slappy at the end...and I began to laugh...

Jm and I divided the rental car and gas...what else...food, tried to make it even...My credit cards are sad, but hey, I got to meet great people and had lots of fun!!

What are they 'fishing' for is what I don't get...

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:40:52 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Spanish Forum weird visit
Message:
Hi SB -
It sounds like you have a conspiracy theorist on that forum - good luck. Wonder who he thinks finances ex-premie.org? Or Elan Vital?

Love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 02:15:25 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Spanish Forum weird visit
Message:
Just for fun, I went to the Spanish forum and tried to tell the poor guy that there was no such thing as an 'organization' of ex-premies. My Spanish is very poor, however. I probably asked him to join instead. Ha ha!
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 02:11:45 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Spanish Forum weird visit
Message:
Shhh..he thinks Elan Vital is a church and Maharaji The Pope....
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 05:36:01 (GMT)
From: Zen
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Spanish Forum weird visit
Message:
Very Good!! Jajajajajajaja
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:27:47 (GMT)
From: Amigo
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: The Spanish Forum is being harrassed
Message:
Hola. Te escribi abajo y ahora veo en tu post aqui que hay un Spanish Forum. Donde esta? Es para exes? Quiero ir!
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:43:28 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Amigo
Subject: Here is the URL: http://www.ex-premie.org/spanish/
Message:
Que te diviertas!!
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:19:15 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: The Spanish Forum is being harrassed
Message:
Estoy curiouso...is there alot of particpation on the Spanish forum? I am really curious. I 'spose I could go and look myself but my Spanish is probably not good enough to understand the dialogue...

are there alot of Spanish ex-es?

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:48:31 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: The Spanish Forum
Message:
Not many that post regularly but some jump at the absurdities occassionally. It won't be long though before more exes begin to post. They come and try to insult my intelligence...What do you expect! LOL

The traffic has increased; triple in two days!! That means that lurkers read and that is why I put my effort there. Is not a secret anymore...I'm involved there and use other name...ha! The things one has to do because Maharaji wont talk to us directly!! Any time I'll say my real name...I'm not afraid anymore of 'them'!!

Hi sweet girl!!

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:46:36 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: The Spanish Forum
Message:
Well keep on fighting girl! Guerilla fighter fighting the lies of the Lard. You are so right about the percentage of people who lurk. I am sure there is a lot of lurker activity. You just have to keep doing what YOU know is right and remember you are doing a good thing.

Thanks for calling me 'sweet girl'. To be still called girl in Middle age is nice!!

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 02:09:08 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: OT: Even if the boys laugh: You don't look like it
Message:
I'm begining to feel more comfortable doing there what I can...

It's not easy because basically is just two of us posting regularly, but the traffic speaks for it self: Numbers are growing and it's a good sign. Even that sometimes looks like nothing what we do there (No time for more, for now) numbers speak and I don't see too much fight often, except when someone like the premie today...Is a good place for me to speak my language; I need practice!! LOL

I'm happy with the so far results. Is just Zen and me, well, Brian hardly posts there...He is forgetting his Spanish, I think....hehehehehe... and some exes drop a line of encouragement, or some angry premies bla bla bla....

Zen has his own page against Maharaji and premies hate that.

Hey America, I salute you! FREEDOM!

WELL, EXCEPT WHEN YOU COME ACROSS A CULT AND YOU GET LOST, LIKE I DID, BUT now is now, maharajichichi!! Right?

A big hug.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:16:00 (GMT)
From: Zen
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: The Spanish Forum is being harrassed
Message:
and so hard !!! Jajjajajaja
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 20:56:03 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Zen
Subject: The Spanish Forum is being harrassed
Message:
Who is the guy!! CIA, FBI??
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 05:25:12 (GMT)
From: Zen
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: The Spanish Forum is being harrassed
Message:
Esquizofrénico paranoíco? Jajajajajaja
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:50:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Proof that it's not a cult (from ELK)
Message:
We're talking downtown Mindfuck, U.S.A. (and Canada). Just look what he does with the language!:

Toronto

Three things I remember from Toronto:

One, was that we were given this gift of clarity. Maharaji said: 'How dare you walk through this life confused, when you have been given the gift of clarity.'

Second, that there are two rivers the river of questions and the river of answers. We were told that we need to bask in the river of answers. Maharaji said (paraphrased): 'Why? Because I have been in the river of answers.'

Third, Those who hear but do not hear the sound within are deaf; Those who see but do not see within are blind; Those who are not aware of their breath are dead.

Thank you for reminding me again, Maharaji.

Thomas Greeley
Dexter,USA

and then there's this daffy Rumiism:

The wings of my heart

For sure, I know I have this mind.
But you are giving me two beautiful wings to fly.
They give me an equilibrium
in my unconsciousness.
They are the wings of my heart.

Marcello Nigro
Potenza, Italy

or this Kabiroid 'analysis':

Cleaning

To clean myself outside is very easy;
it just takes soap and water.
And it feels good to be clean.
To clean myself inside is also easy,
but it takes a different kind of soap and water.

The water of listening to the master
and the soap of practicing this Knowledge.
And boy oh boy, the results are amazing!
How beautiful it feels to be clean inside.
Bliss abounds.
Living becomes a discipline of love.
Joy is always close by.

And I cannot but be thankful for all of this.
Gratitude is automatic.
What a rewarding life.
The patience and dedication required to allow
this process of love to unfold
is a very small price to pay
for a life of happiness.

Janice Wilson
Baldwinsville, NY, USA

but, one thing's sure, whatever the past might have been, Maharaji is no longer, at least, a messianic figure:

What a festival!

I've just seen him. His song is sweet - I could never imagine so much melody creating such sweetness that makes you laugh and cry at the same time, a symphony such as I always dreamed of hearing.

There was so much vibrant energy around him - how can I describe what is highest, most noble - the quality that is so enjoyable.

It was beyond limitations, like flavor turned into colors. People seemed to dance to his movements, his clothing seemed to play with the breeze, as these wonderful people moved they left a trail of love, caring, sincerity, nobility - so many beautiful feelings. Even meetings among friends were so filled with emotion that it seemed they hadn't seen each other for an eternity. Each guest, so special, was like a musical note in an orchestra filled with attractive harmony.

And that was only the outer scene, because as I listened to the one who was giving the message I was waiting for, there were no words. Even now I don't have words to describe what happened within me. I had never seen such humility in one person, so much warmth, so much eloquence, so much sincerity, so much beauty, so much to marvel at. Observing all this, once more I was able to understand that this is the most beautiful way to appreciate this entire marvellous creation and this spectacular life. That is why I am so grateful to have been able to enjoy so much beauty gathered together.

Hilda Rojas
Barquisimeto, Venezuela

No, the premies on ELK haven't found fit to comment on the EV FAQS or anything related. Why should they when life as a VOLUNTEER is this exciting and rewarding?:

Filling in the blanks

Normally I hate filling out forms, but today was different.

It's dull and rainy outside and I was feeling, you know, pretty blah. Then I started filling out the Participation Application form on the Elan Vital site and before I knew it, was completely blown away!

Whether it was the feeling of offering myself once more, or having to delve back through blissful memories to complete the 'Participation Highlights' box, I can't tell, probably both.

All I know is it brightened up my day and despite the rain, the sun is shining in my heart once more.

Barry Shaw
Fort Lauderdale Fl, USA

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 22:33:08 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Proof that it's not a cult (from ELK)
Message:
jezuz, rawat saying to anyone 'how dare you walk through life confused' is amazing he is a confused madman.
These elk writings are classics Jim.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:28:45 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What happened to the link with 'House of Drek' ???
Message:
It was there yesterday, right? I didn't hallucinate it, did I?

What happened??? Can we have a little explanation please.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:36:48 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: WHOEVER
Subject: This is NUTS !!!
Message:
WHERE'S THE LINKS ON THE MAIN PAGE, WWW.EX-PREMIE.ORG FOR DAVE'S AND ROGER'S WEBSITES???

We have links to Maharaji.org, Premie.Org, and Enjoyinglife.org but NONE FOR THESE WEBSITES CREATED BY ACTIVE EX-PREMIES !!!

CAN ANYBODY EXPLAIN THIS TO ME ???

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:57:12 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: This is NUTS !!! - not completely
Message:
There is a link in the links section to Maharaji's (unofficial) Homepage although the link is out of date since Helen Vitals nuked that particular old domain off the net.

This link needs to be updated with the new URL, which of course is http://www.geocities.com/notmaharaji/index.html

There's also a link to my other site, The Great Worldwide Linkup which fortunately wasn't obliterated in the great purge.

The Truth about Maharaji is part of the site which has Maharaji's (unofficial) Homepage on, so it really doesn't matter too much if there's no link to that since readers of the Maharaji Homepage will get to read it anyway, sooner or later.

I think the link to Roger's site has been removed because of the links to bestiality porn, which is illegal in many countries. I'm sure if Roger can be contacted and these links removed, his site will be linked to again.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:09:13 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: This is NUTS !!! - not completely
Message:
So all there is in actuality is a link to the Great Worldwide Linkup. Pretty pathetic (the links, not the page) if you ask me. Dead links don't count.

So why not ask Roger to remove the (singular) link to bestiality.com before nuking him? Maybe they did, but it seems political to me.

No one is forced to go to the beasty page unless they click on it. I can see what I'm about to click on before I do so, and I have a choice. And it's so obscure, I never noticed it before someone pointed it out. And it's satirical. Also it's legal here in the states so I don't believe it's a problem legally.

The fact remains that the TRULY OBSCENE links to goober positive websites are prominently displayed and the anti sites are absent.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:19:00 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: This is NUTS !!! - not completely
Message:
I agree with that.

So why not ask Roger to remove the (singular) link to bestiality.com before nuking him? Maybe they did, but it seems political to me.

SB

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:41:20 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn
Message:
No, nobody asked me nuthin.

Link to Beastialty - who cares?

I suspect other reasons, but I really don't care anymore.

I beat Maharaji, Milbank and Tweed and frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn anymore.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:39:40 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: SB
Subject: I'm not sure that Roger gives a shite
Message:
No, nobody asked me nuthin.

Link to Beastialty - who cares?

I suspect other reasons, but I really don't care anymore.

I beat Maharaji, Milbank and Tweed and frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn anymore.

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:37:25 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Too bad, Roger!
Message:
IMO, if it counts for anything, is that IF some people are going to be offended, or reporters, maybe, maybe it doesn't belong there... but I don't have any right in getting into what benefits you lose with this change. I respect your reasons even if I don't know them.

I really hope that something is worked out Rog; you site is a bomb!! So much good information!

be well!

SB

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 23:02:51 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I'm not sure that Roger gives a shite
Message:
perhaps a notice about the nature of the link....sort of a warning label...would make a suitable compromise?
rawat deserves whatever insults he gets of course and he continues to insult us by lying and his continued cult work.

The more r and x rated materials like some of the fine story writing we all did on your site might be a good place to fit an x link. Yahoo has you right up there and you are in control. We all do things so differently, the first time the lord saw your breasted mala he must have flipped. For the average premoid, it might be too much too quick, if they were forewarned, I bet they would still hit the link out of curiosity. Definately. But they chose it knowingly. That might satisfy any reporter sensabilities, of whatever.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:41:53 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: You did but I didn't
Message:
and some of those links pages we set up last year are now out of date and those rodeodrive pages need updating with my new URLs. I'd be glad if you could do that, please. You'll see that I still have my links to the House of Drek, by the way.

If you need help in finding which of the rodeodrive links need updating, just let me know. They are still popping up on the Altavista 'maharaji' index.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 13:31:16 (GMT)
From: JtF-question to EV re. ..
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: rawRat's famous 'Rotting Vegetable' Satsang
Message:
Does Mr. Rawat(current stage name-Maharaji) admit to having made this statement? If he does, does he still believe this to be true or perhaps someone made him say it? Daddy, perhaps?

If he does take responsibility for it, how does he reconcile this with the common cult characteristic of threatening dire consequences for those leaving the group.

If he does not remember it, would he like his memory refreshed?

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 14:42:16 (GMT)
From: Guru Maharaji Ji, 1974
Email: None
To: JtF-question to EV re. ..
Subject: Rotting Vegetables
Message:
Now, the premies who are not meditating, you know what they are doing? It's like they're getting three tons of vegetables in their house and not eating them. You know what that means? When it starts rottening (sic) - phew, it's gonna rot like hell.

I mean, if it was one vegetable, one teeny weeny vegetable, it would dry out somewhere in the closet; doesn't even matter. But if you had three truckloads of 'em, and they start rottening, man, you are looking into some real trouble. And that's the way this Knowledge is.

If it was a mantra or something, and you forgot it, doesn't matter. But this Knowledge, it's like you got the vegetables of the whole universe with you. And if you don't meditate, can you imagine how it's gonna rot? So you better start meditating.

-Guru Maharaj Ji speaking to devotees at the Phipps Auditorium, Denver, May 2, 1974, as reprinted in the British Divine Light Mission publication 'Premies' no.15, Oct. 26, 1974

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:26:07 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: Guru Maharaji Ji, 1974
Subject: Rotting Vegetables-Thanks
Message:
I figured someone had it.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 13:35:40 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JtF-question to EV re. ..
Subject: rawRat's famous 'thousand pieces 'Satsang
Message:
He also gave a talk at the conference in Tuscon, I think in 78, where he said that he'd taken everyone so high, if we left him we would fall, break into thousands of pieces, and never be able to be put back together.

Anth the Humpty Dumpty

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:35:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: rawRat's famous 'thousand pieces 'Satsang
Message:
Maharaji also said the 'thousand pieces' bullshit in his satsang in a program in Philadelphia in 1978. He said that if you didn't practice, even if you just 'lost faith' in Maharaji, that you would explode into a thousand pieces. The quote is in the 'history' section of the ex-premie.org site, as published in Divine Times (a publication of Elan Vital) for anyone who wants to read it.

All I can conclude is that he said it to scare the shit out of premies to ever think for themselves and stop being devotees. He obviously knew what side his bread was buttered on, as my grandmother used to say. Translation: He knew that the source of his money was devoted premies, even if they were devoted out of fear.

I have written emails to Maharaji's site asking how he reconciles these and other statements that basically constitute threats with the statement on his website (obviously a lie) that he has 'always' said that is somebody doesn't like knowledge it's really okay to just leave it. Of course, I never got a reply.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:29:33 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: rawRat's famous 'Beware of Sharks'Satsang
Message:
Just thought of another threat he made quite often--Don't get to close to the edge of the (his)boat or you might fall overboard and the sharks are circling.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:08:23 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JtF
Subject: You gotta laauughhh ... ha hah haa hhaaahahahaaaa
Message:
'But this Knowledge, it's like you got the vegetables of the whole universe with you.'

Funny he should say that ...

(good name for a band?)

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:24:23 (GMT)
From: Worzel Gummidge
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: ... so premies are non compost mentis? hur hur(nt)
Message:
... so premies are non compost mentis? hur hur(nt)
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 09:49:38 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Class action suit of Hare Krishna's/child abuse
Message:
http://www.wturley.com/news/news.htm#22
-for more details

'HARE KRISHNA' SUED FOR CHILD ABUSE

Today 44 young adults filed a $400 million dollar damage suit against the 'Hare Krishna' for sexual, physical and emotional torture inflicted upon them as children. The suit says Plaintiffs were sexually, physically and emotionally abused, along with hundreds of other children, who were kept during two decades at Hare Krishna’s boarding schools.

The suit, filed in the Federal District Court in Dallas, Texas, names the INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY OF KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS (ISKCON) as the lead defendant, along with sixteen other ISKCON entities and seventeen individual members of its GOVERNING BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS, including the Estate of the movement’s founder, BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA. The Plaintiffs reside in various cities in the United States, Canada and England.

Dallas trial lawyer WINDLE TURLEY, attorney for the plaintiffs, said today, 'This lawsuit describes the most unthinkable abuse and maltreatment of little children which we have seen. It includes rape, sexual abuse, physical torture and emotional terror of children as young as three years of age. The worst of the practices spanned two decades, starting in 1972 with ISKCON’s first school in Dallas, Texas. The abuse continued in a half-dozen other schools in the United States and eventually at two boys’ schools in India.

'Although the leadership in ISKCON has long been aware of the mistreatment and abuse inflicted upon little children entrusted to it to raise, the full scope and profound maltreatment of its children has only recently been exposed.

'We believe the facts as they are developed will reveal more than a thousand child victims, many of whom have already taken their own lives or are today emotionally and socially dysfunctional.

'Elements within this new religious movement have attempted to operate outside the child protection laws of a half-dozen states. As a result, a generation of ISKCON children are permanently, and many profoundly, injured.'

The suit also seeks a Federal injunction to force ISKCON to stop all forms of child abuse.

More details of the child abuse and of the plaintiffs’ legal claims, including Racketeering-Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO), are set out in the Complaint.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:00:31 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: JtF
Subject: Hey maybe we could get goober under RICO (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:32:15 (GMT)
From: JtF
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hey maybe we could get goober under RICO (nt)
Message:
I noticed that also....what struck me the most was the charge that the cover-up was based on the desire to maintain the financial support of current membership.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 09:42:07 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New page on Ex-Premie.org ....
Message:
In the 'aspirants' section: An Aspirant Asks Good Questions

and guess what ? NO ANSWER !!!

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 23:21:42 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: This is BRILLIANT! I'm so glad it's on this site.
Message:
This is great. I had only read Daneane's points that VP had put in an earlier post. Good on her for having actually written to an aspirant coordinator while an aspirant ... I wouldn't have dared to ask those questions to my aspirant coordinator, as I felt, it would have shown I was in my head not my heart and thus not ready for K - which is utterly ridiculous, but that's the way it was. Daneane has articulated what so many aspirants feel at the start, but then suppress for all sorts of reasons.
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 00:26:13 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: This is BRILLIANT! I'm so glad it's on this site.
Message:
Hi TD!!
I agree--I am so glad to see this up on the site. I hope Daneane reads this thread--I know she may be out of town. ANyway, isn't she the greatest thorn in their side those initiators have ever seen! Yeah!

I too would never have dared vocalize my doubts when I was an aspirant. I don't think I could have even thought them through well enough myself. The stage had already been set to put Maharaji on a throne in my brain. !

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:12:15 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Call it FUQ! ('Forever Unanswered Questions)nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:21:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: That's good -- a FUQs section (nt)
Message:
hhhh
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:25:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Or maybe 'Still Unanswered Questions' -- SUQs (nt)
Message:
ffffffff
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 13:32:31 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Aspirant of the Year
Message:
Bonjour Jean-Michel,

We should nominate Daneane as the aspirant of the year. How wierd that Daneanes questions weren't answered.

Maybe if she'd started her letter, 'I am the managing director of a large multi-national company...' they would have replied more quickly.

Anth the Mucoid

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 13:41:01 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: and what about tonight's pilgrimage to that holy
Message:
Indian place I know in Paris?
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 14:55:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: On y va. (nt)
Message:
a ce soir
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 03:50:12 (GMT)
From: Hypothetical
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Press releases
Message:
So what would happen if Press Releases were written and submitted to the Calender section of local papers giving all the correct information about the next EV meetings but mention casually in the text somewhere, 'cult meeting'?
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 02:50:58 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Elan Vitals 's FAQ(long post)
Message:
I suspect this has been covered already, but only posting or reading here periodically, I don't get to read a lot of what is written. I have just read Elan Vital's response to this forum. Sometimes I have felt that postings on this forum have been over the top or based on ubsubstantiated innuendo, but these responses by Elan Vital are revisionism in its vilest form. If M and his organisation could just be honest it would go a long way to alleviating the criticism.
The most ridculous statement is that M never wanted to be a messianic figure-it was the poor, deluded devotees who, looking for such a figure, projected this onto him. I was at most programs around the world between 1977 and 1981. In just these 5 years M spoke extensively about himself as the living master, the lord etc. Was it Holi in Miami in 79 that he told us to pray to him? Of course at this stage he always referred to himself in the 3rd person. Does anybody have the transcript of Philadelphia in 78, final night? He said that GMJ knows all-that trying to hide anything from him is like thinking you're in a forest, but you're really on a giants head and you go to light a fire, thinking that you've escaped the giant. If this isn't messianic I don't know what is. For 12 years, from the Peace Bomb in 1970 through to ashram satsangs I attended in the early 80s, M proclaimed himself as THE master, the one we should devote ourselves to etc. At the ashram satsang at Kissimee in 79 he told us to give ALL our love to him, every aspect of it. He stated quite clearly that married couples didn't have this opportunity as some of their love went to their partners.
As for his money situation, well maybe now because of legal ramifications and recent accountability laws, things have changed. However his so called 'success' came from soliciting donations over a 20 year period. I know people who gave their whole inheritances to M, who bought him cars, motor homes. In most communities in the US there were premies who had the service of calling up people in the community to encourage them to donate funds to M. This was separate from AMP or whatever was happening at the time with money for DLM. It was money to go directly to M to support his lifestyle. If my memory serves me right, we were given a post office address to send it to. And what about the darshan lines? We were encouraged very strongly to give cash. I know that the times I was involved in darshan room security, M received enough money EACH darshan line to buy at least one expensive luxury car- at the big festivals, much more. How many programs were there in a year? 6 to 7 on average, sometimes more. Apart from that, there were large warehouses in Miami filled with the gifts he had been given. And of course the planes..apart from the whole 707 saga, all through the 80s and early 90s we received mailings asking for donations, often quite urgently, for M's plane projects-whether it was to buy a learjet or refit a new plane. Do you remember the video of him sharing a champagne toast in front of his new plane that we had all just bought for him? As for the plane being leased, I assume that its not in his name for legal and tax reasons-most of the residences, for example, were in the names of consortiums of premies. You can bet, though that when they were sold, M got the money.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:00:22 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: Thanks CHR, great post.......
Message:
I had the feeling that Elan Vital's lies would make you want to say something.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 04:44:05 (GMT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: Elan Vitals 's FAQ(long post)
Message:
I'm sorry there's 2 very similar posts-the first one did not come up at first. Its there now for some reason, so take your pick.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 03:40:11 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: I'll try again
Message:
Something went wrong, hopefully this one will work. I'm sure many people have posted about the Elan Vital response to this forum. I only come here periodically, so I'm not sure what has been stated already. Sometimes I have felt that postings here have been a bit over the top or based on innuendo, but the revisionist staements on the EV site are blatantly dishonest.
The most ridiculous one is that M never portrayed himself as a messianic figure- that it was the poor, deluded premies who, looking for a messianic figure, projected this onto him. For at least 12 years, from the peace bomb satsang in 1970 to ashram satsangs I attended in the early 80s, M presented himself as the lord, THE master, the one we needed to devote our lives to. I attended most programs from 1977 to 1981. Just in these 5 years he spoke extensively about devotin g our lives to him as the lord. Was it Miami holi in 79 that he told us to pray to him? Any body got the transcript of the final night at Philadelphia in78? M said that GMJ is all knowing- that trying to do something without him knowing is like being on a giants head, thinking that you are in a forest, then lighting a fire, thinking that you have escaped the giant. If that isnt messianic I dont know whatis. And what about the ashram satsang at Kissimee in 79 where he told us to give him ALL our love, every aspect of it.
As far as money goes, M spent 20 years at least directly soliciting money. In most communities in the US there was a person who had the service of calling premies to encourage them to donate directly to M. This was apart from AMP or whatever was around at the time to support DLM. In darshan lines we were always encouraged to give money. In the several lines where I did darshan room security, M received enough each time to buy at least an expensive luxury car, in the bigger programs and festivals, even more. How many programs were in ayear-6 or 7 usually, sometimes more. Apart from this he had warehouses in Miami full of the gifts he had been given. And then of course there are the planes. Most of the residences used to be in the names of consortiums of premies for legal and tax reasons. You can bet that when they were sold M received the cash. I assume that its the same with this so called leasing of the plane. All through the 80s and early 90s we received mailings, often urgent ones , asking for donations for buying or refitting planes. Apart from the 707 which nobody ever really tried to hide the fact of its ownwership, there have been videos of M celebrating with champagne the purchase of his new lear jet or whatever the latest one was. I could go on but its all a bit ridiculous- it would be nice to see a bit of straightforward honesty, even if it was to say that he was deluded or conditioned by his Indian culture or his family or whatever, and he's sorry he presented himself in this way.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 22:40:36 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: dont reccomend honesty to rawat, lying helps to
Message:
make a contrast between him and integrity and sanity. Let the devil lie as is so natural for him to do.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 21:15:46 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: Some commentary on EV's FAQs
Message:
A quote from the www.elanvital.org - Presskit - Maharaji's biography web page:
'Maharaji was born in North India in 1957. He is the son of Indian spiritual teacher Shri Hans Ji Maharaji. Though only eight years old when his father died (in 1966), he had been recognized as an exceptionally gifted child and he accepted the challenge to continue to teach, in place of his father. This is how he then became popularly known as Maharaji, which is an Indian title of respect.' (emphasis mine)

Commentary:
'Maharaji' was originally known as 'Guru Maharaji Ji', not 'Maharaji'. 'Guru' is a religious title. It was many years later that he changed his title first to 'Maharaj Ji' and then to 'Maharaji'.

A quote from the the www.elanvital.org - Frequently Asked Questions - Opposing Views web page:

'Maharaji is sometimes criticized for his openly successful lifestyle. Elan Vital does not recognize the validity of criticizing his or anyone else’s lifestyle. It could be argued that such criticism is based on an assumption that it is not OK for a religious or spiritual leader to be wealthy. But Maharaji is neither a spiritual nor a religious leader. . He is a master who teaches about life...' (emphasis mine)

Commentary:
I translate 'openly successful lifestyle' as 'he openly flaunts and even brags about his excessive wealth'. That makes it OK?

His father was a 'spiritual teacher', he teachs in place of his father, but he is not a 'spiritual leader'. Sure, and 2 + 2 = 5.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 22:08:22 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Great Point G!! (nt)
Message:
G said:

His father was a 'spiritual teacher', he teaches in place of his father, but he is not a 'spiritual leader'. Sure, and 2 + 2 = 5.

MORONIC!!

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 21:06:55 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: CHR, I suggest you copy and email your excellent
Message:
post directly to Elan Vital. The email address is:

Feedback@elanvital.org

Thanks.

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Date: Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 03:25:06 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: CHR, I suggest you copy and email your excellent
Message:
dont help them improve thier lying by fixing tyhe facade better!
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 06:14:14 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: The man is NO good!
Message:
Glad you see clearly now. I split at the end of 99. Couldn't bare to listen to him anymore: Too many inconsistencies and then i found this site.

:))

SB

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 09:56:25 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: That's good enough for me
Message:
Sometimes I actually move quite fast. It's already on my site for the world to read - The lies about Maharaji.

I'll put more of these FAQ responses on my site this coming week.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 14:23:04 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Your site and House of Drek
Message:
Hi Dave,
I've just been to your site for the first time and I am a little concerned about the way you've used some of the discussions on the forum on your site, including some of my posts. I guess once things are posted they're public property, but the 'headlines' are misleading and, dare I say, a bit senational. They kind of read like something out of the National Enquirer. I suppose I believe the best weapon is honesty and when things are exaggerated they lose credibility. There is a post from a couple of years ago you've headed 'hashish and booze galore'. Geez, I just stated that I had smelt dope at a party at the residence and that there was alcohol there. I have no idea whether it was 'galore'. I was simply responding to some questions and the whole thing has been taken out of context and given a new meaning. Also, I kind of feel funny being labelled 'one who knows'. I was certainly never privy to the kind of information that a Michael Dettmers or a Bob mishler was. I was just stating that from my understanding and experience, the stuff at Elan Vital is bullshit. Don't take this the wrong way I think your site has a lot to offer, I'd just like to see the headers toned down a bit. I've also got problems with the Drek site -for the reasons set out in the earlier threads about it, but also for its treatment of Michael Dettmers. The only winner out of the Maharaji/Dettmers partnership, as far as I can ascertain was M. Every time I saw Dettmers he was exhausted and totally lacking sleep. He was at M's beck and call constantly and really didn't have a life of his own at all.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 14:55:28 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: Your site and House of Drek
Message:
I realise I write like a National Enquirer journalist but that's one of the consequences of being a professional sales writer, writing usually for mass appeal and with dramatic, punchy effect.

If you think about it, you're only going to get someone like me, with my style of writing and editing, making a site that exposes Maharaji. Although I can write and edit in a more level headed way if I want to, I think the subject matter calls for my more dramatic style.

I can change the two headers you mention, if you insist. I have to admit that the 'Hashish and booze galore' section is supposed to have more in it but until I've finished compiling the Forum archives search engine index, I won't be able to find the other posts. My heading on your latest post just came off the top of my head this morning. I can easily change it, if I give it some thought.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 14:18:13 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: That's good enough for me TOO!
Message:
Thanks Sir Dave...what can I say. You are great and quick!

;)

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 00:52:00 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is this more evidence the M cult is crumbling?
Message:
Out of curiousity I just rang the EV information line in my city (Sydney). I haven't done it for about two years since I became an ex, just to see what the status of video events was now like - especially with all the talk about satellite events taking place now.

Anyway, I was very interested to discover that there are only a couple of venues where they're now showing M's videos and not any noteworthy venues (one of them now appears to be at the back of somebody's house - not at the State Library which is where they used to be), and only a couple of video events are now being shown during the week. That's a massive drop in what it used to be. Two years ago, and if you wanted to drive all around Sydney, you could pretty well see a video event every night, in a couple of different places.

If this isn't a sign that numbers are dropping off, then I don't know what is...

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 01:14:12 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Is this more evidence the M cult is crumbling?
Message:
I see it more as being MORE CONTROLLING: Every week a Satellite Event=More money and more control over the premies and what HE SAYS: All stays at home, no videos...premies wouldn't dare to tape them, eh?
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 01:59:03 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Is this more evidence the M cult is crumbling?
Message:
Ah, I didn't realise that the satellite events are weekly! I thought they were just special occasion things. So I wonder what's the pattern of behaviour now then? Do premies gather at people's houses who have satellite access each week(and thereby retain some sort of premie group), or do they watch it by themselves at home, which isn't really conducive to remaining in a cult, is it?

Actually, not having basic communal events like the video events, is going against what has worked for the cult in the past, in that premies need reinforcement of their beliefs by hanging out with other premies, so they don't feel alone on their premie trip - even if it's just a video event in between M's visits. That strange sense of premie community at the video events would now be gone.

It seems apparent now, that whichever way Maharaji turns now with his video strategy, there's only one way to go, and that's downhill! You can't maintain a cult mentality if cult-members are spending less time with each other, and that's what the satellite events would do.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 13:50:33 (GMT)
From: Felix the...
Email: The land of OZ
To: TD
Subject: Is this more evidence the M cult is crumbling?
Message:
You want to read that little thought train very carefully TD ; you may just work out what is really happening NOT what some of the sillier people here IMAGINE is happening. Remember , it's always been personal , always......
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:41:34 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Felix the...
Subject: Attn FA - the Cat crept in and crapped...
Message:
Remember , it's always been personal , always......

WHAT has always been personal, Catweasel...

- your computer?
- Maharaji's fortune?
- your social ineptitude and communication deficiency?
- your oh-so-evident state of transcendental, unwordly detachment?
- your adoration of the Lord of The Universe?

Anyway, what's with the hanging here - don't you have a cult to go to..?

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:20:27 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Attn FA - the Cat crept in and crapped...
Message:
Or is he coming after us, LOL?
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:09:17 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: He's right - it IS personal
Message:
I was pretty personal when my girlfriend and I were persuaded to split up and move into ashrams, never to see each other again. We both thought we were doing it for the Lord. Not some Indian charlatan.

Yeah, that sure does feel personal.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:24:06 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: He's right - it IS personal
Message:
And all the money I spent over the years and still paying for it: That is personal.

And my child left for years with babysitters so I could serve my lord, THAT IS PERSONAL TOO!!

And all the rest....lots of it!!

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 02:08:09 (GMT)
From: Felix the ...
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: He's right - it IS personal
Message:
Look you did that , and I never did. I actually think a lot of people here blame M for their own lack of discernment. I still disagree with things that make no sense . Usually it's some brain dead unauthorised petty beauracrat making it up to suit themselves . Any way , this is it for you lot from now on...You are out here where you want to be; and those people who want to hear him turn on their tellies. Couldn't be simplier . So stop whinging and get ESPN....it's far more exciting than this place!
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 06:53:20 (GMT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Felix the ...
Subject: He's right - it IS personal
Message:
This idea of the petty bureaucrat causing all the problems has been around for years. How many times have I heard, 'Its the premies, not M, who cause the problems'. Could you possibly consider that M, being in charge of the whole thing, may have had something to do with it? There are only 3 choices-1.Either he didn't know what was happening most of the time, in which case he is a fool and certainly not any kind of all knowing master 2. He knew, but didn't care or 3. He was controlling it all.
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 12:03:47 (GMT)
From: Felix the ...
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: He's right - it IS personal
Message:
Total nonsense. There are a million things that go on , and can never know about them until after the event .I mean, who did you think he was....God????
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Date: Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 17:42:43 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Felix the ...
Subject: YOU thought he was God
Message:
Your words cannot deny that. How many Darshans you had, brother ji?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 13, 2000 at 01:01:30 (GMT)
From: Felix the...
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: YOU thought he was God
Message:
You silly Yanks have no sense of the ironic do you?
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 14:23:46 (GMT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Felix the ...
Subject: He's right - it IS personal
Message:
I'm not talking about the million things that go on in peoples lives-I'm referring to the overall policies of his organisation, the myriad of failed procedures that people get pissed off about and blame some 'bureaucrat' for.
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 14:52:53 (GMT)
From: Felix the ...
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: He's right - it IS personal
Message:
Don't you realise . That is over. That is why it is Sat broadcast.No interference. Give it another 6 months and you wont know what's happening unless you are tuned in. In your own loungeroom. Who you gonna blame then?
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Date: Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 01:45:57 (GMT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Felix the ...
Subject: He's right - it IS personal
Message:
Actually it was you who was blaming the 'bureaucrats'. I suspect this loungeroom devotion thing will fall apart like everything else. Maharaji has put so many different procedures and formulas into place over the years and at some point they all fall apart. I agree with you, now its going to be very difficult to blame anyone other than Maharaji.
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Date: Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 08:28:12 (GMT)
From: Felix the......
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: He's right - it IS personal
Message:
For What?`If I choose to Download into my loungeroom , what will I blame him for--Not enough pixels?
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 02:28:09 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Felix the ...
Subject: Excusse me Felix but...
Message:
...nothing is more fun to me that LEARNING THE REAL TRUTH about mahariachichi and this place is very appropiated to do that.

I have cable, but a place like this in TV? This is THE ONLY PLACE I WANT TO BE TODAY, if I have some free minutes...Oh yes, I have a life beside this place, but you don't want to ask me about it, right? Maharaji is THE THEME HERE! Do you know that I have downloaded 1500 + songs? I love music, if you don't believe me, ask JM. I drove him crazy with my music...I like many, many things, but this is VERY important to me and you cannot tell me the oppossite. Good try though.

You judged. Have you thought about what some of us have endured 'slaving' for Lard? You come across as a selfish person who only think about yourself. What about showing YOUR humanity simply understanding THAT NOT ANYBODY IS YOU!!

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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 07:03:15 (GMT)
From: Felix the ...
Email: Miaow
To: SB
Subject: Excusse me Felix but...
Message:
You miss my point. There is a difference to allowing a few lame brains to lord it over you and convince you to succumb to peer group pressure(Hey SB , some things just don't change do they?) and being forced and co-erced into doing things. I'm sure you have a wonderful life and many interests away from this site.But it still doesn't change what I said .....Hang here , or turn on your Telly! Good luck and best wishes....
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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 13:29:12 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Felix the ...
Subject: Excusse me Felix but...
Message:
Original posts, from above:

Felix the ... wrote:

Look you did that , and I never did. I actually think a lot of people here blame M for their own lack of discernment. I still disagree with things that make no sense . Usually it's some brain dead unauthorised petty beauracrat making it up to suit themselves . Any way , this is it for you lot from now on...You are out here where you want to be; and those people who want to hear him turn on their tellies. Couldn't be simplier . So stop whinging and get ESPN....it's far more exciting than this place!

SB responded:
...nothing is more fun to me that LEARNING THE REAL TRUTH about mahariachichi and this place is very appropiated to do that.
I have cable, but a place like this in TV? This is THE ONLY PLACE I WANT TO BE TODAY, if I have some free minutes...Oh yes, I have a life beside this place, but you don't want to ask me about it, right? Maharaji is THE THEME HERE! Do you know that I have downloaded 1500 + songs? I love music, if you don't believe me, ask JM. I drove him crazy with my music...I like many, many things, but this is VERY important to me and you cannot tell me the oppossite. Good try though.

You judged. Have you thought about what some of us have endured 'slaving' for Lard? You come across as a selfish person who only think about yourself. What about showing YOUR humanity simply understanding THAT NOT ANYBODY IS YOU!!

Felix Answered:

You miss my point. There is a difference to allowing a few lame brains to lord it over you and convince you to succumb to peer group pressure(Hey SB , some things just don't change do they?) and being forced and co-erced into doing things. I'm sure you have a wonderful life and many interests away from this site.But it still doesn't change what I said .....Hang here , or turn on your Telly! Good luck and best wishes....

SB: Felix, did you forgot to revise your posts? I don't understan what you are saying. Would you mind tryimg again? I really want to understand what you want to say. Thanks.


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Date: Tues, Jul 11, 2000 at 14:45:48 (GMT)
From: Felix the ...
Email: Not Drowning, Waving
To: SB
Subject: Excusse me Felix but...
Message:
No . What I'm saying is that Autocratic style is something I expierience here. And have expierienced elsewhere. Now it has little relevance to people practising K. What's the Honcho/co-ordinator gonna do? Tell you to Turn down the sound ? In your own loungeroom?
So the choice is simple. If you like it practice it(if you want to). If you want to see M and listen to what he has to say- turn on your TV at the appropriate time(if you want to).And what I was saying about this place is that quite a number of posters here regress to learnt behavior that is simply no longer acceptable anywhere. You are a free agent. You can do what you like. Within reason. No-one has the right to ridicule you and make you follow the party line.
There are people here who have no concept of change.Pity really, (for them).Did you know that some people here make a living out of 'assisting' people to leave.Go and get Jane Campion's movie 'Holy Smoke' . They're all there. It's an absolute joke. And ask Jim who is Ted Patrick and why does he have his picture on the wall. Good Luck. Hope you are happy
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:17:28 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Felix the...
Subject: Watch Felix rationalize....
Message:

OK so ''it's always been personal.'' Ah yes, within inside YOU how could I forget. So now, goober has a plan to totally isolate each individual mind controlled income unit (premie) and brainwashing each on a one-to-one basis. No interaction between income units, and no possibility of exchanging dangerous information or 'doubts.' Perfect.

Also goober can apply all the new mind control technology at a distance, remotely. Also perfect. He IS the Perfect Master after all.

Remote controlled, high tech income units. Brave New World.
Hey maybe this really is ''Phase Two.''

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 22:41:09 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: That's it Gerry! It's now Solo Ashram Phase 2...
Message:
... of course, time to change tack again! So now premies can turn into their own independent satellite monasteries. Wonder if the Big M will enforce some new house rules via his satellite videos - he could bring back some of the old Indian stuff, couldn't he? He could tell people to re-embrace some of the old ashram behaviour that he only changed because of outside pressure, but make them a lot more PERSONAL this time around, and make people feel that he's doing it just for each of them! He could bring back celibacy, altars, arti, bragans and not face any flack because people are doing it in the privacy of their own home! Marvellous!

Looking back at the history of DLM/EV, every change M has made to the cult behaviour and K, has been as a result of some sort of outside pressure (societal, media, ex-premie etc) - and yet premies, like Cat, still believe M is doing it off his own bat, just deciding to change the rules because he's ready, as opposed to his hand being forced.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 02:13:00 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Is this more evidence the M cult is crumbling?
Message:
Well, you have so many old premies supporting his trip that still he makes big bucks!! Today there was a satellite event...He keeps kicking and trying. He has his team.

Is like one of his instructors said here: 'Maharaji want you to put your thinking hats on'...that was David Mancoff, talking about how to help propagation. David Smith here? EVEN 5 DOLLARS CAN HELP!! HE TOLD THE PREMIES TO HELP SUPPORT 'MAHARAJI'S WORK

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 18:47:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Premies should have restricted privileges here
Message:
Although premies like to pretend that this is the 'official place for discussing Maharaji' on the internet -- or, anywhere for that matter -- it's not. This is the 'ex-premie forum', a place created and maintained by and for ex-premies. Premies are allowed to post here for several reasons but they're all our reasons. If we didn't think there was some benefit in allowing them to demonstrate cult-think here, either for them or us or anyone else, we'd kick them all out and never think twice about it. This place is for ex-premies.

So why is it that, once we allow premies in here, we have to give them carte blanche to bug us interminably? Does it really have to be all or nothing? I don't think so. I think that the moment we give a premie free licence to post here as much and however he or she wishes no matter what we're basically treating them like an ex. Thus the site becomes theirs too. It might have been for exes, theoretically, at least, but it's really just for anyone, even Harry, I guess.

Well I don't think so! I think that whenever a premie exhausts their welcome here they should get tossed. At least for some period of time. If most of us feel like we've had enough of Keith, toss him. Shp? Same thing. Bjron? Elaine? Why not? These people have absolutely no right to be here. They're guests on the ex-premie forum where free speech is NOT an abstract absolute value. Reason is.

The alternative, of course, in practical terms is to acknowledge that this is not really an ex-premie forum. It just so hpapens that the majority of posters are exes. The moment -- and this could happen -- a bunch of premies decide en masse to jump in to defend the cult they could simply take over the place. Frankly, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. Maybe now that EV's acknowledged us and called us all liars in its FAQs we'll see that sort of effort. And if we do we'll look pretty pathetic trying to quickly modify our 'free speech' standard just because we don't like who's posting and what they're saying. No, the fact is we DON'T like many premies and, before you jump on me for that, admit at least that we certainly don't like what they're saying. But the point is there that we'd look like idiots if we suddenly tried to take our marbles back because of who's playing.

No, there's no time like the present, I think, to clarify where we stand on all this. I say there should be some limit on their involvement here. These people shouldn't be given free reign to simply hang out as much and as scurrilously as they want. Like I've said before, this isn't a school competition for the American Civil Liberties Union prize. We're posting here because it's the one place in the entire world that I know of where ex's can tell the truth to each other about what happened. Why should complete idiots be able to fling as much mud as they want to at us here? They shouldn't.

Now the question arises about how to enforce some limitations on premie involvement. I think that's not too hard. Being that they don't have any 'right' to be here they're not entitled to any particular 'due process' before eviction. You know, your landlord has to comply with certain legal procedures in order to kick you out. But a hotel doesn't. That's because you have rights in an apartment that you don't have in a hotel. Well, I think this is a 'hotel for premies and nothing more. We should be able to agree on who's obviously outstayed their welcome and that sohuld be the end of it. Simple majority or consensus; further discussion in hard cases. Hell, be really generous and do nothing in hard cases. Be conservative. Whatever.

But I think that this kind of standard could be beneficial in a couple of ways. One, it contributes to exes comfort level, a goal for which we need never apologize. Two, it drives hom ethe point that the premies, on their own, cannot maintain an open discussion about Maharaji. They can only glom onto ours. Three, it reminds these pests that they're guests. Maybe if they knew that and they really wanted to contribute here instead of simply starting their own forum (ha ha ha!), they wouldn't be SUCH idiots. I mean, it's a matter of degree, isn't it?

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:56:24 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Premies should have restricted privileges here
Message:
Jim, I think Keith has already been blocked from the forum at least once, maybe more, for disrupting the forum -- posting too many stupid posts, etc. I have seen the FA from time to time repeat the policy that posting here by premies is a privilege and not a right and I agree with that. Sometimes individual posts or threads are deleted if they are over the line, in the opinion of the FA, and I have always felt comfortable with that -- more comfortable than just blocking people, unless they break one of the few rules, like post under other people's names, threaten, disrupt, etc.

I think the premie posts are very good examples of cult-thinking, and often lead to some good discussions. Keep in mind that some premies are terribly confused and are really questioning and keep coming back because they are getting something here that they don't get from the cult, even though they don't admit it. They may spew a lot of nonsense during the process -- maybe like Elaine, living in the twilight zone of sort of being a premie and sort of not. But I think this forum is important for people like her and I think she ought to be supported and not rejected, even if some of us don't like what she has to say.

Also, from my observation, it's only the more fringe premies who ever have the nerve to even post here. Based on the heavy traffic on the forum, I think a LOT of premies read it but don't dare post. The more plugged in premies are too frightened of becoming a pariah in the cult which they hold on to like a life preserver. Those premies on the fringe have nothing, or less, to lose. Keith, for example, wants to be his own guru I think, which wouldn't make him popular in Elan Vital. I wouldn't be surprised if he is on the 'bongo' list that M's security carries around.

And as form premies coming in large numbers to defend the cult, that isn't going to happen, but if it did I couldn't be happier. Just how do you think they are going to defend the indefensible? How are they going to defend the Elan Vital FAQs which are on their face patethetic lies and spin? I would love to see that and I think it would really open things up.

Finally, I don't want to give EV the ammunition to say that not only do anonymous posters make wild allegations and false statements here, but that we don't allow premies to give the other side of the story. Making this forum as open as possible while pointing out the censorship and lack of open discussion on the Maharaji sites really gives ex-premies the higher moral ground.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 20:02:05 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Premies should have restricted privileges here
Message:
It's a matter of respect, Joe. Premies should understand that this is OUR house and they're OUR guests. They should step lightly. If they want to debate with us, fine. No harm done. I enjoy the debates, myself, and have gotten something out of them. But any premie who gets comfortable into thinking they're on their home court needs to be straightened out right quick. Some means needs to be found where premies understand that this is OUR holy ground, and when they come here, they'd better do so with the same respect they do for a satsang hall. Otherwise, show them the door.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 21:11:39 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Premies should have restricted privileges here
Message:
I can't imagine that too many premies have respect for this site or for what we are saying, unless they are premies who are having doubts themselves.

They should respect us, but they probably don't ;) snicker
How's it going, Jerry? I haven't talked to you in a while.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 20:24:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Are You Kidding???
Message:
There are plenty of ex-premies around here, like Jim, you and others, who I am sure will make it very unlikely that any premie who is spouting nonsense will ever feel comfortable here, or think this is his or her 'home turf.' I don't know of any premie who feels comfortable here, unless he or she is in the process of becomming an ex.

And as for the right v. privilege issue, maybe the FA should restate that, but I know it has been stated in the past.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:40:18 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Premies should have restricted privileges here
Message:
Joe,
I think you're missing a couple of important points. One, with the current policy some premies who abuse the Forum are not being dealt with soon enough, if at all. Premies like Elaine and Keith post dozens of times a day and seemingly want to distract the discussion from criticism of maharaji. Others like Raina continued to make a mess for weeks before being dealt with.

And two, if premies post in large numbers it would be effective in sabotaging our discussion even if their posts are weak in content.

I think we all want premies to hang around and make fools of themselves to the extent it doesn't disrupt the Forum. But when some dingbat continually chimes in with garbage that has no purpose but to dilute a coherant discussion, then they ought to go.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 20:29:17 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: Premies should have restricted privileges here
Message:
Well, as for Elaine, she was saying quite a lot of negative stuff about Elan Vital and Maharaji, which I appreciated. I don't think it was off topic, nor was it nonsense. For example, she said that she doesn't tell anyone about knowledge because it was 'too hard to get' and she couldn't figure out why. Most premies will not express those kinds of doubts. She was also freaked out about the money, and about Jagdeo, and said so. Again, I think that girl was going through changes about all this.

Like I said, Keith has been blocked before and may be again, although I haven't noticed that he has posted all that much, and I skip them anyway because they don't make a whole lot of sense.

Raina is now gone, at least I haven't seen her post in quite a while, but I think she was just a somewhat unbalanced person, more than anything else, and really rather harmless. I don't even know if she was a premie or not.

If people are really posting 'garbage' in an obvious attempt to just mess things up, then, I agree, they should be warned and then banned. But I think that's comparatively rare.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 21:08:11 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Premies should have restricted privileges here
Message:
If people are really posting 'garbage' in an obvious attempt to just mess things up, then, I agree, they should be warned and then banned. But I think that's comparatively rare.

I agree. Again.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:01:18 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, you took the words right out of
Message:
my mouth.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 20:10:26 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Agree with Joe and VP
Message:
Although I do think that people who 'spam' the forum with meaningless/anonymous/irritating posts should be blocked or limited in the number of posts that they can make each day. (This applies whether they are premies, ex-premies, or neither.)

I don't have a problem with Elaine's posts, by the way. I just wish they'd block 'the rapper'.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 19:18:46 (GMT)
From: oops
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Joe, you took the words right out of
Message:
Just testing
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:46:35 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: yeah - like putting up or shutting up:
Message:
yeah - like putting up or shutting up:

f'rinstance last Wednesday, Mili gave us this:

Subject:
Let's clear this up once and for all shall we?
Message:

Mili wrote:
'...it's an old technique - interspersing verifiable truths among the bullshit to make
it all appear kosher.'

Kind of aptly describes 'Ex-premie.org', doesn't it? Thanks.

cq responded:
Again and again, the same accusation from premies. Look, if you care to READ this
website, copy and paste the bits you think are lies/bullshit and POST them on the Forum
- we'd have something to discuss. The fact that no premie ever HAS (to my knowledge)
done just that makes it all the more clear that the bullshitting is emanating from none other
than YOU, Mili

So how long do I give him to 'put up or shut up?'

(and I'm sure many exes have been through this with the likes of Mili before.

Ultimatum time?)

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 17:23:51 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Premies should have restricted privileges here
Message:
I think that there should be some restrictions for the premies here; I’m all for Nigel’s suggestion. But they do serve a purpose here: when there are no premies around we tend to attack each other.

I must admit that I think that Keith is a big windbag and contributes nothing to the conversation here; he seems to desire an audience for his “philosophical” (I am using the term quite loosely) rants. Didn’t we once have a “Keith Channel” for this garbage? And just because he calls himself an “ex” doesn’t mean that he actually is an “ex.” Shp, the Dog, Elaine, and the others come here, get insulted, and then claim that they are leaving for good, but they just keep coming back for more because they know they won’t get any honest conversation on the subject from a pro-premie site as premies are quite incapable of honest talk on the subject. Remember Sir David's pro-premie site? Does it still exist?

Let them hang around with some restrictions; we are not obligated to let them spew every piece of nonsense which floats into their heads.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 01:03:10 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Premies should have restricted privileges here
Message:
What are you afraid of Jim? And don't say you are not afraid of anything. You are
afraid!

Jim said, 'If we didn't
think there was some benefit in allowing them to demonstrate
cult-think here, either for them or us or anyone else, we'd kick
them all out and never think twice about it. This place is for
ex-premies.'

Keith responds, The above smacks of premiephobia. It implies that if a premie or an
ex like myself says something that does not show 'cult' thinking at work, then that
poster should not be welcomed here. In other words, Jim can't handle ideas expressed
with 'reason' and open mindedness if they differ from his 'holy cows'. Look at your
words. Don't come back at me and say I'm twisting your words.

Jim says, ' I think that whenever a premie exhausts their
welcome here they should get tossed. At least for some period of
time. If most of us feel like we've had enough of Keith, toss him.
Shp? Same thing. Bjron? Elaine? Why not? These people have
absolutely no right to be here. They're guests on the ex-premie
forum where free speech is NOT an abstract absolute value.'

Keith responds....Jim can't accept that an ex-premie can have radically different views
to his own. So he includes me in the list of premies who could be candidates for his
oversize boot.
I really don't care. Ban me. Boot me. Play misty for me. I don't control the forum. Nor
does Jim. It's here. I have my reasons for contributing here, as every poster does. I
would enjoy to discuss matters closer to the core of Maharaji and premies ,etc, but
that I find, ironically, difficult to do in this forum of overly dominated overly extreme
ex premies. Does ex really mean extreme?
The fact is that issues surrounding Maharaji overlap into more general topic areas. For
instance, spirituality in general. Or the psychology of human questing. To limit
discussion to a narrow band of acceptable issues, not to mention , particular
personality types, would be to render this forum 'impotent' and
an example for all who visit here of a group phobia and paranoia in action.

Jim says, We're posting here because it's the one place
in the entire world that I know of where ex's can tell the truth to
each other about what happened. Why should complete idiots be
able to fling as much mud as they want to at us here? They
shouldn't.

Keith responds.... Who's truth? Jims truth about what happened?
I have left Maharaji and Elan Vital (and premies...who I rarely see) behind. 18
months out of that soup. I'm very glad to be out. But, I have my own story to tell. I
have my own truth. No pompous idiot is going to define what 'truth' is for me. No
chronic mud slinger is going to then claim 'foul' when some mud rebounds back on
his fearful ego. How childish!

I've always felt Jim to be an insidious influence on this forum.
Not the only one but the 'most'. This view of mine I'm sure parellels Jims of me. This
forum is largely supposed to be about Maharaji's insidious influence. I see Jim as a
more destructive influence than Maharaji. That is my view. There is no love lost
between us. Sometimes I feel to break my silence and simply oppose his words.
Knowing that he will win the great majority of support here. So be it!
Knowing that ,his words will be generally accepted without too much deep scrutiny.
But others who's presense is barely tolerated will be picked apart word by word or
abused and ridicled or treated with contempt.

The F.A's are reading Jims contributions. So they can read mine too. It is up to them
what they do.
Katie said to me a couple of weeks ago, that I should not be so critical of the forum,
or words to that effect. I would say, someone needs to play devils advocate. Because
without devil's advocates this forum would become every bit as narrow and
surpressed as any elan vital meeting. Imho.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 13, 2000 at 00:19:14 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Jim is a vital force for honesty.(nt)
Message:
fg
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 17:39:47 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: More likely he's just bored by twats!
Message:
Even you Keith must have come up against the situation of finding yourself chatting at a party to someone who was obviously the party bore.

And you didn't then negotiate some distance & sharpish?

One thing I am certain of is that you don't have a fucking clue where Jim's coming from.

Go out & get a life, for chrissakes, three years without any spiritual group contact at all, just living, and then come back and you'll have a much better understanding of why a break from you is always so, so refreshing, sorry Keith, better as you are this time, you still haven't got what this site is about at all.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 03:55:45 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: FA's Count me as one vote to get rid of Keith (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 00:29:51 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Seems not to be so hard
Message:
I think the premies here are of benefit to see just how awful of thing the cult is.

Their behaviour, lack of thought and empty defenses reveal much about the cult.

If you don't like 'em and are sick of 'em and all...don't read, and especially, don't answer their posts.

I think if you were to count the amount of premies' posts that suck...and the amount of exes' posts telling them they suck...you'd see which side is posting more on the non-sense.

Limiting doesn't seem very realistic anyway...then it seems like the whole enjoyinglife.org trip where everything is carefully screened.

But let me know if you decide it should only be exes, since I will no longer be able to post here either. Okay, so I admit, that part would be a benefit. :~)

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 14:55:32 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Seems not to be so hard
Message:
Daneane,

I don't think Jim means that only exes would be able to post here. I'm not an ex-premie either, but I think you and I would still be able to post. We both have experience with this thing, even if we didn't go through the secret ceremony--snicker!

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 01:52:17 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Seems not to be so hard
Message:
Your participation here is appreciated, what are you talking about? Is not every day that an aspirant comes and shares her story...

I think Jim ment something else. Some premies are heavy and in some cases the FA should give a warning when somebody crosses the line...But who I'm I to talk, I am mad at Elaine. Not very grown up...and her 'answers' never come and she can say whatever she wants, freely...ban her? No, Elaine is starting to get the idea of who Maharaji is...I think.

Rodeo, eh? I'll answer your email...interesting. Are you going?

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 00:14:37 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Premies should have restricted privileges here
Message:
Hey Jim, if diversity of opinion from premies and impartial guests (that's me), are interferring with your healing process, then go for it, and ban the noisy buggers. It is your forum after all. I'll start the ball rolling and kindly request to be blocked forthwith. A bit futher down the track maybe you could get unrully ex's blocked too.
Adios
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 01:11:32 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Premies should have restricted privileges here
Message:
Yes Harry. You put yourself first in the firing line. Bravo!
How inspiring. Perhaps I could be the first unruly ex to be banned. Or did someone already beat me to that ?
We could start a cult of martyr's. Those rebels who dared to stand up to Guru Jimji. As you say, why should anyone (the vermin) interfere with Jim's healing process?
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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 21:47:07 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Premies already have restricted privileges here.
Message:
Premies are already restricted here. Am I the only one who sees it? Anyway, whatever you all do with this place is up to you and I hope you are happy with your decisions. Just don't blame your guests for the way your place has operated, that is a cop out and is getting really old, ya know?

Jim said:
Although premies like to pretend that this is the 'official place for discussing Maharaji' on the internet -- or, anywhere for that matter -- it's not.

shp says:
OK, which premies 'like to pretend' etc etc...very inflammatory words but no reality behind them. It's about time you got more organized and stopped blaming premies every time a thread gets tangled. You and yours are not all the greatest communicators either. We have all had our eloquent moments and we all have gotten toe jamb stuck in our teeth too. So make your rules and deal with it. Just stop blaming everyone but the ones responsible for what goes on here. If it's your place, make it what you want it to be. If I or another premie doesn't like it, we can choose to stay away or you can choose to exclude me or anyone else. What's with all the melodrama?? Oh yeah, I forgot that you thrive on it, as long as you are directing the scene.

Jim:
This is the 'ex-premie forum', a place created and maintained by and for ex-premies.

shp:
I can respect that it's not my place, sure.

Jim:
Premies are allowed to post here for several reasons but they're all our reasons. If we didn't think there was some benefit in allowing them to demonstrate cult-think here, either for them or us or anyone else, we'd kick them all out and never think twice about it.

shp says:
I'd be interested to know what your other reasons are for allowing premies to post here besides 'allowing them to demonstrate cult-think here'. If that's the heaviest reason you've got, you are hosting not a Forum, but an alley where you and your sympathizers routinely and with vigor mug premies who think you want to have dialog, but all you really want to do is take out your anger and frustration on people you never even met who happen to have an association with Maharaji and may not have the tongue or the pen of Shakespeare. This is a manifestation that you, Jim Heller, are primarily responsible for. You have incited and instigated many a hot conversation and then cried foul. You have personally created more ill will here than anyone else present, as if there is not enough already. You are an intellectual snob and tyrant, and your actions towards ex-premies as well as premies is well documented. I can hear your defenders already coming to your aid and slinging insults, for to many ex-premies you probably represent a tower of strength. But you tower has serious corrosion at its base. And because of that, all premies are subject to your open hunting season, and let's face it...even if I or another premie said something that you knew inside was true, you would obfuscate your ass off and hide behind premie bashing as a diversion.

Jim said:
This place is for ex-premies.

shp:
You already said that. Just remember to change the cover page if you go exclusively exers. Have fun!

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 05:57:50 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Premies already have restricted privileges here.
Message:
I can respect that it's not my place, sure.

You sure act like it is. You're like a houseguest, who the first thing he does when he arrives is raid the refrigerator. Seriously, Sandy, I have seen times when you have completely dominated the forum to the point where I've got sick of the sight of you. Keith, too. You're two of the most overbloated egos the forum has seen yet. You act like a couple of crusaders for truth, justice, and whatever, and we get bombarded with your philosophies and your vendetta against Jim until my ears hurt. I wouldn't mind being the one to ask you, politely, of course, to leave now and again.

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Date: Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 14:18:17 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Premies already have restricted privileges here.
Message:
shp:
I can respect that it's not my place, sure.

jerry:
You sure act like it is. You're like a houseguest, who the first thing he does when he arrives is raid the refrigerator.

shp:
I don't think your perception is unbiased or accurate about me.
You paint an interesting visual with your words, but I don't see any reality behind the words.

jerry:
Seriously, Sandy, I have seen times when you have completely dominated the forum to the point where I've got sick of the sight of you.

shp:
Can you be specific about when those moments were?
When I first got involved here, it was a bit nutty on both sides.

jerry:
Keith, too. You're two of the most overbloated egos the forum has seen yet.

shp:
I don't know Keith, don't usually read his stuff or any of the responses. Also, I don't appreciate being lumped with somebody else in a group judgement. How'd you like that done to you?

jerry:
You act like a coupl of crusaders for truth, justice, and whatever, and we get bombarded with your philosophies and your vendetta against Jim until my ears hurt. I wouldn't mind being the one to ask you, politely, of course, to leave now and again.

shp:
Please deal with me individually and not as part of a group. We are all sharing our feelings and beliefs with each other here. What's the big deal about mine, except that you probably don't agree with them? And as for Jim...I have no vendetta, I just deal with him as I would anyone else who behaved the same way. Nothing personal against him. And as for asking me to leave now and then, why don't you just approach me in any given here-and-now situation and tell me in that moment what is bothering you and we can maybe even work it out and come to a higher agreement, instead of all this other garbage.

In a bar or other setting, they don't throw out people whose private table conversation and ideas are not acceptable to the management, or whose dance steps are not the house dance steps. They throw out people who get unruly, violent, disturb other guests (that's alot of grey area), and generally spoil the experience for the rest of the place in general.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 13, 2000 at 01:19:22 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Premies already have restricted privileges here.
Message:
Sandy,

I'm not about to go searching through the archives to find specific instances where I got tired of the sight of you. Just suffice it to say that there were such occassions. Okay? Trust me on this. As for Keith, if you don't like me lumping you with him, I can understand your displeasure on that. I'll reduce it to you YOU are one of the most overbloated egos on the forum. I even think I told you to 'shut the fuck up already' on one occassion, I found your ego so loud and intolerable. As for asking you to leave, it's only when you get up on a soap box and start to preach that I would do such a thing. I wouldn't ask you to leave because I didn't like the conversation you were having with somebody. It's not my place to do that.

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:41:41 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Premies should have restricted privileges here
Message:
Great idea, Jim. I agree on all points. I like Nigel's idea of six ex-premies can vote a premie off the Forum.
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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:51:03 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: I agree but lower the number
Message:
Four ex-premies should be enough to bounce a premie. Christ it's hard enought to get TWO ex-premies to agree on ANYTHING outside of our uh, distaste for EV and goober.
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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 19:59:02 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Premies should have restricted privileges here
Message:
Thanks Jim for stating the position so clearly. Yes I agree with all you said.

I found that when I switched over to being an ex it was a shaky time for me. I received some hostile posts from a couple of premies at that point. The posts were in fact from premies who had been allowed to post here for quite some time, without them examining their beliefs with any perceivable honesty.

Someone recently said that it's similar to being a victim of paedophilia for example, then going into a support group and finding the perpetrators there trying to make you feel bad for criticising them. Absurd right?

There are some premies who I do feel a tolerance for because they at least give some of their personal experience , and discuss the issues. However there are some premies who come on to the forum so that lurkers can see the pro Maha standpoint.
These are the ones that I can see no purpose in allowng to continue here , unless of course they are seriously looking at the possibility that they may not want to stay in the cult.

We certainly can't allow premies to use the forum as a place to have satsang with each other and support each other!!!!

Hal

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 19:15:31 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: How feasible is that in reality?
Message:
Jim,
How do you propose monitoring this stuff? Seriously. Every time someone is about to be banned, the forum gets into these long, very boring threads where everyone argues their point of view about the matter. It's very distracting from the good discussions on the forum. Look at the recent threads about Bjorn, for example. Are you suggesting we have more of this kind of stuff? Jeez, I hope not.

The FA's are volunteers, and would probably quit if we started arguing over premies going or staying every few days or more. I'm sure the FA's have their own lives which include more interesting things to do than implement forum blocks every time some ex gets angry at a premie. Seriously.

I don't mind premies posting because it's such a darn effective look into the mindset of EV. Take CD, for example. The way he ducks in and out and doesn't answer anything you ask is very telling, IMO. Yes, it can be irritating and infuriating, but we don't have to read a person if their posts irritate us. We don't have to give a premie a chance to abuse us if we ignore them.

Most importantly to me, there is the fact that some premies have become exes by posting here (isn't Rob one of them?) Not just reading, mind you, but actually putting words down in a public forum.

For what it's worth.

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 21:39:23 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: benlurken@aol.com
To: VP
Subject: How feasible is that in reality?
Message:
Passwords could be implemented for posting, you must give a true idenity, physical location or verifiable point of cantact to get a password for your handle.

You then let the FA's disable passwords as they see fit, no need to have a vote on every ejection. I have remained anonymous on the board as I don't want to come in real life contact with a wacked out premie.

Conduct forum business via email offline.
I don't care if exes know who I am. If you don't want to use a password allow a low number of anonymous posts as guest users per 24 hr period. Premies then can read and ask questions and maybe walk away which is why we want them here to begin with.

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 19:27:41 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I wasn't totally clear before
Message:
I am all for supporting exes and I don't want them to be abused. I guess my biggest concerns are that 1) this policy of blocking here and blocking there will make more work for the FA's and more boring crap to wade through and that

2) in blocking someone just because they have worn out their welcome, you may block them before they have a chance to work through what they need to in their minds about Maharaji. You could block them before they have a chance to ask all of their questions.

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:20:44 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: VP
Subject: I wasn't totally clear before
Message:
Hi VP,

I was about to post to say how much I agreed with Jim, then read your replies - and I have to admit you have raised some important points.

And in a way, I think you might have inadvertently hit the nail on the head re. the criteria for determining acceptable / unacceptable premie posts. If you consider the way that Hal(dor) first arrived: he was not overtly hostile to the exes here in the manner of Bjorn or URL. He was genuinely open for discussion, and as such didn't flame anyone and didn't get anyone objecting to his presence.

In a way, I think Jim's 'it's-our-forum-so-let's-do-what-we-like' stance might be a better way than having the absolute guidelines that exist at present. The trouble with these is that some of the most offensive posts (IMO) - such as 'Just Curious's' prurient obssession with the Jagdeo case - don't necessarily contravene any guideline but cause more upset than others that do.

Perhaps we could have something like if maybe six known exes (maybe people who have posted journeys to the main site?) email the Admins independently to request a certain premie's removal - and stating a good reason for doing so, it would be unlikely that other exes would object and the admins would probably feel confident in obliging. The removal could be implemented immediately and everyone would be spared the 'should /shouldn't they go?' discussions on the forum itself.

Just an idea, and I may have overlooked weaknesses. But I'd be interested in what anyone else might think.


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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:08:17 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I wasn't totally clear before
Message:
Hi, Nigel

There used to be a council where there was another forum set up to discuss this kind of stuff. (When Brian and Katie were FAs) I don't think we ever used it much, but that's option so that there isn't so much e-mail involved in having six people try to make a decision.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:41:23 (GMT)
From: P-Man
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: I wasn't totally clear before
Message:
Yeah, I remember that being the Forum Committee. The only issue ever discussed was whether to publish the letter Marolyn wrote about what a ponce the Hamster is.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 15:49:29 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: P-Man
Subject: I wasn't totally clear before
Message:
Another trouble with a committee is it relies on same gang of people being around when a decision is needed, and someone to organise membership whenever a member moves on. My proposal is that ANY six (or three, or two, whatever) known ex-premies emailing the FA need be all it takes to get rid of a troublemaker.

BTW: I didn't mean to imply that there was anything special about people who have written Journeys entries. Obviously there are some here who cannot do that for good reason. Really, I just meant exes who have been posting for a while and are known to the FA's. Or something...

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 17:33:28 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I wasn't totally clear before
Message:
Oh, I got it, ANY six complaints and the guy gets the toss. (A little slow today) I misunderstood what you were saying. Yeah, that committee thing didn't really pan out.
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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:39:35 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: It's not that tough
Message:
It's pretty easy to sort out the repeat offenders. And VP, it's just not that demanding of a job to be FA. It wouldn't put any undue burden on them to take a minute a block the offender.

It's about time.

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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 20:53:53 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: What you are saying is that....
Message:
when an ex reads an offending or abusive premie message he/she either email the message to the Fa or post it in a new thread to point to whatever absurdity that premie may have posted?
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 12:44:15 (GMT)
From: [edited]
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: edited [see inside]
Message:
Message from FA:

The contents of 'What if's' post have been removed. Not for what he wrote on this occasion, but because this guy has been one total pain in the arse over previous months with multi-aliased, nasty posts, including posting under other people's names.

No, What If, it has nothing to do with having anything to hide.
It is about trying to stop the place being stunk out with garbage from the likes of you.

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 14:14:43 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: What if
Subject: an ex-premie
Message:
What was the experience you had?

I was talking especially about Elaine's post where she incites somebody to 'fix' Jagdeo. We do not want this in the exes site. Right?

Who are you little coward? snicker as...

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:06:02 (GMT)
From: FA
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: an ex-premie
Message:
Sorry, SB, I didn't realise that by editing out 'What If's' post (he is banned), I would make it look like you were replying to me.
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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 16:26:43 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: SB to FA
Message:
That is ok, is all crazy but WE ARE STRONG!!

I know why they come here...

Thanks.

SB

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Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 00:50:43 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: What you are saying is that....
Message:
Well, not exactly, but that's not a bad idea, putting the FA's on notice, and it would make their job easier.
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Date: Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 19:11:19 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Good Post Jim!! (nt)
Message:
go
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