Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 01:32:40 (GMT)
From: Aug 07, 2000 To: Aug 16, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


eBay Alert -:- Bob Larson - The Guru -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 03:20:44 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- I'm a big Bob Larson fan -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 15:45:33 (GMT)

Helen -:- way ot --Good news about my fella's cancer -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 23:29:10 (GMT)
__ ham -:- Excellent news Helen -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 13:58:59 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- way ot --Good news about my fella's cancer -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:54:08 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Great to Hear Helen. -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 17:12:13 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Great to Hear Helen. -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:55:42 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Hi helen and Gary! -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 13:26:03 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Hi helen and Gary! -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 02:02:27 (GMT)
__ Kjarne -:- way ot --Good news about my fella's cancer -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 12:29:05 (GMT)
__ Bobby -:- way ot --Good news about my fella's cancer -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 04:59:37 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- way ot --Good news about my fella's cancer -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 02:13:31 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- way ot --Good news about my fella's cancer -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 02:17:31 (GMT)
__ SB -:- way ot --Good news about my fella's cancer -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 00:50:51 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- way ot or not... -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 00:20:51 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- alllllll right Helen -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 23:54:29 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Thanks everyone (slightly on topic) -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 02:41:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks everyone (slightly on topic) -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:36:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- reckless complacency -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 02:11:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- wonderful news -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 05:00:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- yes you are strong -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 04:39:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ HElen -:- yes you are strong -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 13:15:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Thanks everyone (slightly on topic) -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 04:12:09 (GMT)

jondon -:- Maharaj Charan Singh Ji -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 20:24:56 (GMT)
__ Paul -:- Maharaj Charan Singh Ji -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 14:16:55 (GMT)
__ jethro -:- Maharaj Charan Singh Ji -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 06:03:34 (GMT)
__ sam -:- Maharaj Charan Singh Ji -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 22:42:18 (GMT)
__ __ jondon -:- Thanks -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 01:43:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ sam -:- Thanks -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 02:55:54 (GMT)

Joe -:- Anyone got a clue what this means? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 19:13:13 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- More of the con job -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 23:17:07 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- Anyone got a clue what this means? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:50:38 (GMT)
__ bill -:- 'Total disregard' is right. -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:40:31 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Anyone got a clue what this means? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 20:14:54 (GMT)
__ __ buzz -:- Anyone got a clue what this means? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:54:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Anyone got a clue what this means? -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 01:01:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Very nice, Sir Dave -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 03:38:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- We've got G to thank for that -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 13:03:23 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Maha 'won't be entirely rejected by the world'? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 19:27:34 (GMT)

Salam -:- Jeeps Nominees Pty Ltd -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 18:18:26 (GMT)
__ correction -:- I just found them. -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 18:23:48 (GMT)

Amaroo -:- TOTAL purchase price 235,964.00 -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 18:15:27 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Purchase of? Amaroo's been purchased way before! -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 07:29:57 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- Purchase of? Amaroo's been purchased way before! -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 11:07:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Purchase of? Amaroo's been purchased way before! -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 13:14:47 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- Ozzie dollars or US dollars ?? nt -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 20:07:36 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Ozzie dollars dollars..nt -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 22:40:53 (GMT)

Curious -:- Where is the letter? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:34:42 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- www.openlettertomaharaji.org -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 17:13:02 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- You forgot the 'i' in 'Maharaji' (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 17:13:56 (GMT)

Jim -:- How many years before she crashes and burns? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:24:20 (GMT)

Jim -:- People of the world, join hands, let's start a lov -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:58:47 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Five years later..... -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:29:44 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- First laugh all afternoon -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 00:58:04 (GMT)

Kjarne -:- Maharajis webside, statistics -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 13:42:08 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Figures never lie -liars figure (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 19:33:10 (GMT)
__ cq -:- You mean it could be a con trick? ;) (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:24:33 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Maharajis webside, statistics as always in EV -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 14:30:32 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- Maharajis webside, statistics as always in EV -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:44:34 (GMT)
__ __ JMKhan: I have not been -:- able to do work on the guru book last week -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:40:18 (GMT)

JTF -:- A Poll: Who is Guru Maharaj Ji (aka Maharaji) -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 11:54:39 (GMT)
__ sb -:- a,,c and f (nt) -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 00:48:20 (GMT)
__ bill -:- a+b..nt -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:44:17 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- a, b and c..nt -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:43:56 (GMT)

AJW -:- Does Maharaji have an affluent lifestyle? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 07:51:07 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Give this man a Pulitzer......well done (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:26:33 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Excellent, Anth -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:51:48 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- You might have warned me -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:43:19 (GMT)
__ shp -:- It doesn't matter! -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:21:16 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- It doesn't matter! -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 10:33:03 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- Does anything 'matter' to you? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 23:31:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Q: Does anything 'matter' to you? A: Yes. -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 15:41:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Q: Does anything 'matter' to you? A: Yes. -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 02:24:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Q: Does anything 'matter' to you? A: Yes. -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 12:41:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Q: Does anything 'matter' to you? A: Yes. -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 04:41:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- ***HILARIOUS SHPISM ENCLOSED*** -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 16:01:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'Dear Persons..?' What happened to education? -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:11:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Jim perverts everything to his viewpoint..so -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 17:51:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Sounds interesting, nice alliteration but... -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:46:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Sounds interesting, nice alliteration but... -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 12:47:21 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- It DOES matter!!! -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 23:09:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Rule the Forum, Helen... -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:32:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Hey Nigel -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 02:33:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- oh and they do engage in those chinese -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 03:47:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- oh and they do engage in those chinese -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 23:57:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- wow Helen I didn't know you like it THAY much -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:31:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- It DOES matter!!! -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 15:53:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ a question for -:- SHP -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 16:12:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Q/A -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 18:09:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- ***EXTRA! EXTRA! SHP ABSOLVES HELEN*** -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 16:10:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- You used 'absolve' wrong Jimbo. -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 18:14:43 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Shippie, try to make me proud of you..(nt) -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:47:31 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- 'How its used' -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 17:01:07 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Afluence without paying taxes doesn't matter? nt -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:34:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's... -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 15:57:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- you are a TOTAL asshole!! (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:20:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- But he's not rendering - he's ripping off! -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 17:25:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Wise as a serpent-harmless as a dove, so what? -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 18:28:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Material wealth in M's pocket that came from mine? -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 19:01:06 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- It doesn't matter! But THIS does -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:17:59 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- shp: you are very quick to come to the mark and -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:04:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- and alechem salam to you, too. -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 17:10:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Get a life shp -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 18:41:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ and I may add -:- read my post to Shrrom below, you both -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 19:00:48 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Query: Is Shp really as stupid as he sounds? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:04:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Query: The ex-premie premie haters club lives! -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 18:54:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- shp, couldn't resist it! -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 22:38:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- That is your problem. -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 16:00:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- That is YOUR problem. -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 22:02:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Shp, your toxic shmozzle calls for a regular suppl -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 16:15:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- From an apheresis donor to you with a sick liver -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 18:38:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Query: Is Shp really as stupid as he sounds? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:07:07 (GMT)
__ Lee -:- Does Maharaji have an affluent lifestyle? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 14:40:43 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Great post! Classic AJW! (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 14:34:45 (GMT)

Danny -:- All the joie de vivre of your average cantaloupe -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 06:34:14 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Me thinks thou dost protest too much.... -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:55:31 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- joie de noir -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:50:02 (GMT)
__ __ Danny -:- Thanks for your (mostly) civil responses -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 21:22:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Re:Thanks for your (mostly) civil responses -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 22:18:16 (GMT)
__ __ Lurkex -:- Bigger and better buzzes -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:04:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- To Danny:on remembering the feeling -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 18:30:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- If humanity is getting misty-eyed over an old car -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:13:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Hey shroom -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 03:08:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- I prefer Psylosobe Cubensis, actually. Mm-Mm! (nt) -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 03:35:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Oh really , which strain? -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 03:57:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- I have a friend who'll buy one ounce of each -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 06:44:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- And why would you need mm's when u have k? (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:50:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- No problem -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 13:57:27 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- The problem is Danny -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:37:40 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- And what's YOUR point? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 06:51:42 (GMT)

Rob -:- NOW I know where I went wrong -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 04:50:51 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Boink -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 05:00:08 (GMT)

Peter Howie -:- One idea of how people learn and hence quit! -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 00:24:07 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- One idea of how people learn and hence quit! -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 02:37:46 (GMT)
__ __ Peter Howie -:- One idea of how people learn and hence quit! -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 04:37:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: Kolb and Mezirow (ot) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 12:42:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: Kolb and Mezirow hmmmm ....(ot) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 13:16:00 (GMT)
__ Lurkex -:- One idea of how people learn and hence quit! -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:29:42 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- One idea of how people learn and hence quit! -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:49:06 (GMT)

P-man -:- To Joe-Off Topic-Lieberman -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 22:35:22 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- My Opinion...... -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 22:45:29 (GMT)
__ __ P-man -:- Thanks, Joe... -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 22:57:27 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- The Environment -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 22:54:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ P-man -:- oh... -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 23:01:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Gore/Lieberman -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 23:09:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Bush on the environment .. consider this -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 23:15:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Also, consider this.... -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 23:25:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ P-man -:- yeah, that's scary... -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 00:39:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- yeah, that's scary... -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 04:19:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- LCV profiles of Gore and Bush -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 02:40:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Sierra Club -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 03:11:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ P-man -:- thanks G (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:21:58 (GMT)

Jim -:- To Carol (re inactive thread) -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 20:09:41 (GMT)
__ Carol -:- To Carol (re inactive thread) -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 08:37:42 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 03:20:44 (GMT)
From: eBay Alert
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bob Larson - The Guru
Message:
Premo dirt-bagging of the Lard, up for sale on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=402658980

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 15:45:33 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: eBay Alert
Subject: I'm a big Bob Larson fan
Message:
I bought a book of his in 1967 called Hindus, Hippies and Rock and Roll. And in the Eighties, I used to listen to him on my drive home from work. (He's based here in Denver, although he's not on the air anymore...his empire, like GMJ's, is crumbling)

He would rant about Mormons, metalheads, satanic ritual abuse...he'd do on-air exoricisms and all kinds of crazy shit...when he wasn't begging for money, which was really his main shtick.

But I never knew he wrote a book out the ex-Lord.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 23:29:10 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: way ot --Good news about my fella's cancer
Message:
Just want to say for those of you who have asked about this, we went back to the eye cancer hospital today, and my husband's eye was examined. The tumor in his eye responded well to the radiation treatment in April. Which means--there should not be any danger of the tumor growing again. Still a danger that the tumor (when it was growing) left a stray cell in his blood stream (seeds of cancer ) but that is pretty slim, he'll be checked out for it regularly. He will definitely get a cataract in a few years from the radiation but cataract surgery is pretty easy these days. For everyone who asked about this and prayed and sent their good wishes I just wanted to update you and thank you. This is probably not the place to do it but I wanted to spread the happy news somewhere, so those who don't know me just bear with me!

YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH!!!!!

ALLELUIA!!!

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 13:58:59 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Excellent news Helen
Message:
Bet your 'appreciation' of life is high at the moment!

:) :) :)

Smileys just have to be the order for the day!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:54:08 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: way ot --Good news about my fella's cancer
Message:
DEAR HELEN AND HUBBY!
I AM SO HAPPY! I HAVE TEARS IN MY EYES. THIS IS THE BEST NEWS!
LOVE YOU BOTH TONS,
HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 17:12:13 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Great to Hear Helen.
Message:
What great news. And I know what you mean about cateract surgery. My mon, who is in her late 70s had it done and it took about 20 minutes and her eyesight is better than ever. Amazing.

Congratulations to you and yours.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:55:42 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Great to Hear Helen.
Message:
Thanks, Joe. My mom had cataract surgery also and afterward she could see the color blue so well again! I guess cataracts are yellow and filter out the yellow in the color blue. My mom went around saying 'oooh that shade of blue is so beautiful!'

Thanks again, Joe
Helen

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 13:26:03 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: n
To: Helen
Subject: Hi helen and Gary!
Message:
I'm glad Gary is fine. I was a bit worried about his health.

One more person Rawat didn't have to save .....

Say hello to him and your daughter!

JM the shark.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 02:02:27 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hi helen and Gary!
Message:
Hey Shark-man,
Thanks! SO good spending time with you--when are you coming back? YOu have a cheap American hotel you can stay at anytime... Our house! Tinky the guinea pig has a friend now, another female guinea pig named WInky. Tinky misses being spoken to in French, so you'll have to tape yourself talking to her and send it to us--ha ha
Helen
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 12:29:05 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: way ot --Good news about my fella's cancer
Message:

I don`t know you, but I am happy for you anyway.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 04:59:37 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: way ot --Good news about my fella's cancer
Message:
so glad to hear the news!

love to you and Gary

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 02:13:31 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: way ot --Good news about my fella's cancer
Message:
Hey Bobby--and thank you for visiting him in the hospital and for the cool CD which I listen to A LOT!!
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 02:17:31 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: way ot --Good news about my fella's cancer
Message:
Helen,

This definitely IS a place to share the happy news. I know I was thinking about you, and really am so glad that everything has turned out so well.

Lots of love to you and your fella, for many years to come!

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 00:50:51 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: way ot --Good news about my fella's cancer
Message:
I'm very happy to hear such good news!!!

:)))))

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 00:20:51 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: way ot or not...
Message:
I'm really happy for both of you. We've all had friends and family who've died of cancer (like my two parents), and it's wonderful to hear about someone who caught it and treated it in time. Many more happy years to you both!!
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 23:54:29 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: alllllll right Helen
Message:
That's great news. I'm very happy for both of you.
Love to you both.
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 02:41:30 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Thanks everyone (slightly on topic)
Message:
I didn't realize the tremendous strain I had been under until today. I am 'catharting' (is that a word--the verb to catharsis) all over the place. I have this big grin on my face. It's really weird how I prepared myself for the worst news today. So many things that I thought would never happen happened this year (the birth mother of the baby my sister was adopting changed her mind which was DEVASTATING to my sister and her husband, my sister in law died, and my husband got diagnosed with cancer). So I now know that the worst can happen but I also know that the BEST can happen too.

One thing I have to say that I am really proud of is that I did not use my old premie coping strategy (basically retreating into a fantasy world) to deal with it all. Being an advocate for someone with cancer requires a toughness and a with-it-ness that I never could have imagined myself having in my 20's. You have to ask a lot of questions and do your research. You can not be passive or you won't know what the hell is going on. You can't fall under the spell, the mystique of that word 'cancer'. You have to understand what type of cancer you are dealing with and understand your options, the prognosis and the clinical trials.

The way I used to deal with health stuff when I was a premie was really 'surrendered' in a creepy way. I remember being put under general anaesthesia for surgery when I was a premie and hardly knowing what was going on. We just can't afford to have that kind of naivete when it comes to medical treatment for ourselves and our loved ones. So I guess this is on topic after all but thanks again everyone. I feel like a huge load I have been carrying has dropped off my shoulders.

Make sure you all get thorough eye exams. Even though eye cancer is rare, Gary was lucky as shit that his opthamologist knew what a tumor looks like and saw a shadow behind his iris during a routine exam. That guy (his opthamologist) basically saved his eye because if it had gone untreated he would have lost his sight in that eye or worse if it had matastisized. Gary is one lucky guy, lucky to have a wife who is 'strong like bull' too!! HA HA

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:36:05 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Thanks everyone (slightly on topic)
Message:
I'm very happy for you and Gary, Helen,

And I thought I needed a good laugh on Saturday night! I am sorry to hear that you have been struggling with this. I'm also glad to hear that you had the strength to keep on 'turning over the stones,' to make sure that you did the best you possibly could to help Gary. I really respect your strength.

My first experience with 'premies' in 1983, was when a mutual friend was arrested and jailed in Peru. Their response: 'But don't you see? Everything is OK because m takes care of everything! ' or something to that effect. The tone of voice was unbelievable. Needless to say, I did not call them again to seek help or support. I hope you don't mind my mentioning this story in this context, but it came to mind when you described the mindlessness of premie 'surrender'.

I will be getting an eye exam, and thank you for letting me, and others, know about this rare form of cancer. I will pass on this information.

And I will send you an email soon!

Hugs and love to you and Gary,

Stonor

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 02:11:44 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: reckless complacency
Message:
Dear Stonor,
That experience that you describe is EXACTLY the kind of creepy dissociated type of surrender that I was talking about. It really is scary when people don't 'get' a situation's gravity and don't care enough about themselves to take care of themselves. I think that story you told really epitomizes the most dangerous aspect of M's cult--a reckless kind of complacency . It really is a so tragic that people can claim that maharaji 'loves' them when he contributes to, and AND profits from people getting into that kind of psychological state. It is kind of a spiritual rape isn't it?

Helen

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 05:00:03 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: wonderful news
Message:
That's wonderful new Helen. It's good that you faced the problem, toughed it out, and kept your cool. Good going. I'll go get an eye exam.
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 04:39:45 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: yes you are strong
Message:
You have been a source of inspiration to me many times on this place. Thanks for being around Helen.
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 13:15:32 (GMT)
From: HElen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yes you are strong
Message:
Thanks Selene. I used to be such a weenie, no thanks to Maharaji!!
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 04:12:09 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Thanks everyone (slightly on topic)
Message:
That makes my day Helen, I am really glad for you 2.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 20:24:56 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaj Charan Singh Ji
Message:
Is Maharaj Charan Singh Ji the present Lord of the Universe, aka Lardbutt, or is it his old man. I found a book, Words Eternal, by the same name above. Excerpts from Maharaj Ji's Letters and Discourses 1957 - 1979. I am confused with all these monikers that these swami dudes tack on to their names. This booklet is published by Secretary General/Radha Soami Society, Beas-America/10901 Mill Springs Drive/Nevada City, Calif.

Headquarters: Radha Soami Satsag Beas/P.O. Dera Baba Jaimal Singh/ Punjab, India

Copyright 1983/Radha Soami Society, Beas-America First Edition 50,000

It is full of those little sayings that Lardo uses: (and I quote, directly) 'The very reason we are placed on this earth is to enable us to realise God within ourselves'
OKay, I can buy that.

'First comes the Grace of God, then the kindness and mercy of the Guru who initiates us into the mysteries of Nam, and finally, our own unceasing efforts to tread the Path and follow the instructions. Strike the bargain of Nam and accumulate this Treasure while the Lord gives you the opportunity to live in this body'
All right, now we're getting into familiar territory. Follow the Instructions. A little brainwashing, scarecrow??? And what is Nam??

'The Master is the helmsman of your life now' Here we go.

'The Master has only your happiness and best interests at heart.' Yeah, right. Watch your wallet.

And the final little note: 'Only the Satguru is deserving of our love'

A nice little pocket booklet of brainwashing crap. Excuse me for my ignorance as to the name thing. These guys seem to hand out names at every whim. I am lost in all the Indian Jibberish. Does any wone know if this is M (guru prem pal marharaj charan singh sevenelevenji) or his Pop (the Daddy Guru)?

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 14:16:55 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Maharaj Charan Singh Ji
Message:
jondon, Charan and his brother Kirpal were 2 of the more well- known gurus to hit the USA in the 1970s. They provided some confusion for premies in that they 'revealed' the same techniques, used the same terms, e.g. satsang, satguru, etc.

Paul

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 06:03:34 (GMT)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Maharaj Charan Singh Ji
Message:
There are 1000s of 'maharajis' in the worldwho al tell the same stories.

Ask at the ez-satsangi site at

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/exsatsangisupportgroup

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 22:42:18 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: jondon
Subject: Maharaj Charan Singh Ji
Message:
it is someone ele- theres a whole line of them - lots with 'maharaji' in their title. The line and more info is on net through a link- not sure which though (an ex site)-good luck
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 01:43:09 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: Thanks
Message:
They must have all read from the same book.
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 02:55:54 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Thanks
Message:
look in the thread before this, I think it mentions this. Its also because way back, m's dad came from the same master line.
I'd have to check spelling, but check out rhadaosani or maybe rahdsaomi
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 19:13:13 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Anyone got a clue what this means?
Message:
Over on that 'enigmatic' website of Elan Vital, in which Maharaji is described as an 'enigma,' is the following statement, a kind of summary of who Maharaji is and what the future hods for him, I mean it must be something because he has learned to fly a plane and all. I'm not sure I have that understanding, alowing me to decipher its true meaning. Can anyone tell me that this means?

Maharaji is the child guru who didn’t burn out or fade away and that, combined with a total dedication to his students and a total disregard for ever doing what is expected, is the main reason why the 'world' may never fully accept or reject him.

Isn't this 'damning by faint praise?' Elan Vital sums up its 'master' by saying Maharaji's greatest quality is that he is enigmatic and probably won't be entirely rejected by the 'world,' (for some reason in quotes) meaning, I guess, that there will always be at least some die-hard followers. This sure is a big fall from 'I will establish peace in this world' that he proclaimed when he was still the 'child guru.'

Oh yeah, also he's a pilot.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 23:17:07 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: More of the con job
Message:
Ya know it's just more of that 'get rid of all your concepts, M is the master of lila' stuff. Otherwise known as: Dodging any responsibility for anything.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:50:38 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Anyone got a clue what this means?
Message:
Means they need better writers and better bullshit.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:40:31 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'Total disregard' is right.
Message:
Total disregard for his mom, brothers, wife, aborted children he had with this mistresses,
total disregard for those that trusted him,
those that gave him the benefit of the doubt,
those that believed him when he promised to take us from darkness to light,
Total disregard for truth,
for honesty
for integrity
for reality
for his own body
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 20:14:54 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Anyone got a clue what this means?
Message:
'combined with a total dedication to his students'

Is this the same Maharaji as we talk about here? It can't be. Must be some other Maharaji. It's a very common title in India.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:54:21 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Anyone got a clue what this means?
Message:
this charan singh was head of the rhadaswamis who med on light and sound. i wrote to him once and asked him about sticking your fingers in your eyes to see light and he wasnt to impressed,he's died now and some other guy has took over.m's father supposedly took initiation from baba sawan singh who was charan singh's guru before m,s father took initiation from sarupananda ji.a lot of rhadaswamis are confused too!!!
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 01:01:21 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: Anyone got a clue what this means?
Message:
I'm afraid I soon get lost and switch off mentally when I start hearing all those Indian names. Actually, I've steadily developed an aversion to anything that sounds like an Indian Hindu type word.

Uh, my post above was an attempt at sarcasm, which as my Mother used to say, is the lowest form of wit. But anyway, I've decided to add another Incarnation of God to my site. It will probably be on the web page by the time you read this so click here to see all the current God incarnations that walk the Earth and you'll see at the end (about 5 minutes after I post this) yet another avatar to worship.

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 03:38:02 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Very nice, Sir Dave
Message:
The Chia or was that Chai was really good.
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 13:03:23 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: We've got G to thank for that
Message:
because he/she posted the link here.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 19:27:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Maha 'won't be entirely rejected by the world'?
Message:
... and to think that the Houston Millennium shindig was billed as (quote)

'the greatest event in the history of mankind'

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 18:18:26 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jeeps Nominees Pty Ltd
Message:
This company seems to have disappeared of the face of the earth, anyone knows anything about it.

Salam

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 18:23:48 (GMT)
From: correction
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I just found them.
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 18:15:27 (GMT)
From: Amaroo
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: TOTAL purchase price 235,964.00
Message:
registered agent number 813
Loging party or agent name Clark and Kann Lawyers
address Level 7, Colonial Mutual Building
Post Office Square, Brisbane, Queensland
telephone (07) 3231 5222
facsimile (07) 3229 0005
DX number
--------------------------------------------------------------

form 207 Corporation Law 187(1)
Australian Securities Commission
allotement of shares
---------------------------------------------------------

Company name IVORY'S ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE PTY LTD
A.C.N. 068 618 922
--------------------------------------------------------
Details of the allotement

date of allotement (d/m/y) 31.1.96
class code ORD
full title Ordinary shares - ordinary

number alloted 235,964

nominal value per share 1.00
premiums paid per share NIL
description of the consideration for Capitalisation of loan accounts
which shares have been so alloted
----------------------------------------------------

form 208 Corporation Law 187(5)

Australian Securities Commission
Notification of
details of shares alloted other than
for cash
to be lodged with Form 207 Notification of allotement of shares
---------------------------------------------------------------

IVORY'S ROCK CONFERENCE CENTRE PTY LTD
A.C.N. 068508298

DETAILS OF SHARES ALLOTED
Use the same class defined in Form 207 Notification of allotement of shares
(surname & given names or corporation name)

name Jeeps Nominees Pty Ltd
ACN 068 508 298

class code ORD
total number of shares alloted 235,964
date of allotement (d/m/y) 31.1.96

Details of the allotment
Tick the boxes which apply and fill in the details required

The allotment was made in satisfaction or part satistfaction of the purchase price of property. details of the property
amount paid m cash
amount deemed as paid in shares allotted
amount of debt released or liabiities assured (including, mortgages on the 235,964.00 property)

TOTAL purchase price 235,964.00

The allotment was made in consideration of services rendered or any other consideration not mentioned above.
details Capltalisatlon ot shareholders loans


This form must be signed by a director, secretary or principal executive officer (PEO)

date 31.1.96
Signature
print name JANICE GAY MCGREGOR sign here


Salam

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 07:29:57 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Amaroo
Subject: Purchase of? Amaroo's been purchased way before!
Message:
This is an interesting document, but very likely related to some extra piece of land purchased recently.

Amaroo's been purchased in the late 80s or early 90s!!!

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 11:07:49 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Purchase of? Amaroo's been purchased way before!
Message:
During a visit to Amaroo during the mid 90's, I was told that M was negotiating with a neighbouring farmer to purchase some more land. It was alledged that the farmer was invited over for a meal with M to talk turkey. This land could very well be what they were negotiating.
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 13:14:47 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Purchase of? Amaroo's been purchased way before!
Message:
Amaroo was a cattle farm before it was purchased by EV.

As you can see, Ev trading name is Ivory's Rock, which can be regarded as being owned by Jeeps Nominee seeing that they owe all shares.

It is very likely this could be a diffrent transaction for purchase of additional land. The difficulty is in the number of parents companies. I do not know exactly who Jeeps are, but I am waiting for information regarding their share holders and allocation, like the above document.
I can also get a list of all the directors of these companies, it will be interesting to find out who is who, I just hope that Jeep does not have other parents. I will post the info when I get it. Will be nice if someone from queensland/Ipswich can get invloved

Salam

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 20:07:36 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Amaroo
Subject: Ozzie dollars or US dollars ?? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 22:40:53 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Ozzie dollars dollars..nt
Message:
n
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:34:42 (GMT)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Where is the letter?
Message:
I've been trying to get to the open letter to MJ at www.openlettertomaharaj.org. Is this the correct address? Netscape says they don't have a dns entry or ssomething?
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 17:13:02 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: www.openlettertomaharaji.org
Message:
That's the correct address. I just checked and it's still there.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 17:13:56 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You forgot the 'i' in 'Maharaji' (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:24:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How many years before she crashes and burns?
Message:
Jackie Kearney
From ELK:

It's so easy

Jackie from Cornwall marvels at the feelings she experiences...

Every dream I ever had about being able to trust and enjoy without judgement has come true and I am living it, Never would I have believed in my darkest time that such a thing as having this feeling of love and appreciation inside was possible, so much to look forward to in this world of Knowledge. Can't wait to be with Maharaji once again, just for the feeling, so simple to connect to the heart and so rewarding. Something to share in this world that can light up a friend's face as it did mine. Thank you for this opportunity to express.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:58:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: People of the world, join hands, let's start a lov
Message:
e train, love train!

Here, this is from ELK:

Spreading Knowledge in Shangri La

Hello everyone!

I'm living and working in Almaty , Kazakhstan. A large beautiful country between Russia, India and China. As far as I know I'm the only person with Knowledge here. I show videos to many different people and the reaction is generally favourable, so there are a few interested people here.

But if anyone has any local contacts for me I'd be grateful. Also if there are any English teachers out there who'd like to work here, there are jobs available. So if you know anyone here or if you fancy an adventure in Shangri La , please e-mail me.

I'll be back in Europe in September for the events if any one is interested in speaking to me

About Kazakhstan: it's a former Soviet Republic in Central Asia and the ninth largest country in the world, however it has a very small population of about 15 million people. They are mostly Kazakh and Russian but there are also many Korean, Ukranian, Urghur and Tartar people here. I find the majority of them very friendly and hospitable. Despite being a mineral rich country most of the people are very poor. All the Soviet space rockets were, and still are, sent from here not Russia.

The land area it covers is huge and it goes from Russia and the Ukraine in the west to China and Mongolia in the East.

I'm sitting in Almaty in the south east. Looking out my window I can see the Tian Shien mountains which separate Kazakhstan from China. It's an incredibly beautiful place. However, there are no other people with Knowledge apart from me, hence my email to this site.

Thanks,
Nigel Cox
Almaty, Kazakhstan

EL: We will forward you Nigel's email address on request. We recently heard from Ben Warner , who is, he thinks, the only person with Knowledge in Papua New Guinea, and would also like to hear from people around the world. His email is also available on request.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:29:44 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Five years later.....
Message:
'I'm living and working in Los Angeles , California. A large beautiful State between Mexico, Arizona and Washington. As far as I know I'm the only person with Knowledge here. I show videos to many different people and the reaction is generally favourable, so there are a few interested people here.

But if anyone has any local contacts for me I'd be grateful. Also if there are any Spanish teachers out there who'd like to work here, there are jobs available. So if you know anyone here or if you fancy an adventure in Beverly Hills, please e-mail me.

I'm sitting in Malibu on the coast. Looking out my window I can see the Rocky mountains which separate California from Arizona. It's an incredibly beautiful place. However, there are no other people with Knowledge apart from me, hence my email to this site.

Thanks,
Prem Rawat
Malibu, California

EL: We will forward you Prem's email address on request. We recently heard from Raja Ji, who is, he thinks, the only person with Knowledge in Miami Florida, and would also like to hear from people around the world. His email is also available on request.

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 00:58:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: First laugh all afternoon
Message:
Thanks. Tough day in court. This was good.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 13:42:08 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharajis webside, statistics
Message:
Have You noticed that for every time you click on a butten, you are counted as one visiter. You can observe it if you go to updates and then statistics.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 19:33:10 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: Figures never lie -liars figure (nt)
Message:
figures never lie, liars figure
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:24:33 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: You mean it could be a con trick? ;) (nt)
Message:
sdgf
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 14:30:32 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: Maharajis webside, statistics as always in EV
Message:
It's always been the same in EV !!!

You enter the program: 1 person
you buy one video: 1 person
you buy one picture: 1 person
you go to the toilet: 1 person
you go out: 1 person
you come back in: 1 person
You come for the next program: 1 person
etc .....

Hundreds of thousands of persons come every year to listen !

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:44:34 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Maharajis webside, statistics as always in EV
Message:
Man, if you calculated all the voices in my head too....they'd have record numbers!
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:40:18 (GMT)
From: JMKhan: I have not been
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: able to do work on the guru book last week
Message:
because my computer crashed and I have/had to reinstall everthing back on. I lost your e-mail in the proccess. Can you send me a dummy e-mail so I can store your address

Salam

p.s. did you recive the zipped pages 3 to 43

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 11:54:39 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A Poll: Who is Guru Maharaj Ji (aka Maharaji)
Message:
I'm just curious about what the people here think the man currently operating under the stage name 'Maharaji' really is.

Rawat is:

a) a sub-human slime who is fully aware of the scam he is running

b) totally insane-believing his own bullshit

c) the scum of the earth(comparible to Hitler as a criminal) yet also insane

d) a humble misunderstood meditation teacher

e) the Lord of the Universe, Satguru, Grand Omnipotent Poobah currently in disguise

f) whatever he claims to be currently(subject to change at his convenience)

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 00:48:20 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: a,,c and f (nt)
Message:
shit
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:44:17 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: a+b..nt
Message:
dfg
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:43:56 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: a, b and c..nt
Message:
j
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 07:51:07 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Does Maharaji have an affluent lifestyle?
Message:
Hi,

I was reading the FAQ on one of the cult sites, and they invited responses. Here's what I sent them:

Dear Whoever You Are,

I was looking at your website, and came across the FAQ page. As someone who was a deeply involved and commited follower of Maharaji for twenty five years, and has since quit, and become an ex-premie, I read your comments about material “on the web” with great interest.. You invited responses from readers, so here’s mine.

It’s classic cult bullshit. Only people living in cloud cuckoo land would take seriously an organisation that interviewed itself about its own credibility, and then published its answers to its own questions on its website. It’s the intellectual version of the ingrowing toenail.

But what changes your response from a joke to a farce, is that you even dodge one of your own questions. It’s astonishing you haven't noticed it, and I’m glad I’ve made a copy before you take it down or rewrite it.

You ask yourselves a simple question, in big bold type,

Does Maharaji have an affluent lifestyle?

Then there’s an essay in reply. Let’s read it.

“We don’t think you should criticise anyone because of their lifestyle.” This, presumably includes the millionaire guru lifestyle. “And even if you think it’s wrong for gurus to be millionaires, well, he’s not a guru anyway.”

Then, to justify your argument about your masters’ wealth, you quote your master. Ha, ha, ha. Well at least you managed to find an authority on the subject.

We’re halfway through the essay. Maybe the question will be answered in the second part.

“Elan Vital in no way, shape or form, anyhow, in any way, ever gives one tenth of a penny to Maharaji. Honest. It’s true. I swear……” OK I get the idea. “In fact, he’s so incredibly generous, he doesn’t even charge us for piloting the private jet that in no way belongs to him.”

That’s right. Isn’t it owned by one of those companies set up by premies? I think there’s information about it on one of the websites your expensive New York lawyers tried to close down.

I don’t really understand why you are trying to disassociate yourselves from Maharaji’s followers. These are the people that fund your organisation, the private plane, the big houses, helicopters, Rollers and Feraris. They are only too happy to pay for it all, and not embarrassed to say so. Admittedly numbers are dwindling, but there are still thousands of devoted premies, regularly dropping their cash into whatever bucket is being pushed in their face at the time, be it the programme registration, video fee, voluntary donation, smart card, raffle, special fundraising for the new plane, or whatever. Fundraising is one of the few things about the cult that never changes. Why do you say you have nothing to do with it?

Sorry, I drifted off. Where were we, ‘Does Maharaji have an affluent lifestyle?’ We’d got to, “He’s so generous he doesn’t bill us for flying the private plane, full of servants guarding his luggage in the back, that’s not really his honest.”

Here’s an interesting bit, “he has private business interests that have been very successful.” I wonder if that’s the famous watch patent that gives you the co-ordinates of Las Vegas in 562 languages, with the battery in a wheelbarrow. Blimey, he must have sold a lot.

So, I’m nearly at the end, are you going to tell me if he has an affluent lifestyle or not?

“And he’s worked really hard and he deserves it all anyway.”

It’s incredible. You dodged your own question.

How about this?

Q. Does Maharaji have an affluent lifestyle?

A. No. He has a millionaire lifestyle. He has exclusive use of massive, multi-million dollar properties all around the world. He travels in a private jet and private helicopter (which he doesn’t own by the way, really). He owns fleets of luxury cars, is waited on hand and foot by servants, and thinks ‘job’ is a fat Japanese bloke with a bowler hat, in an old Peter Sellers movie.

So, let’s have a look at the other questions you asked yourselves,

‘Is Elan Vital aware of criticisms of its activities that have appeared on the internet?’

Well, in view of the fact that you’ve hired lawyers and created a website to respond to them, I’d assume you were aware of them. Not an intelligent question.

Has Elan Vital taken action to protect its reputation?

Yes it has, but unfortunately the wrong action. Instead of investigating and dealing with the very strong child abuse allegations against Mahatma Jagdeo, you hired lawyers to try and close the websites making the allegations.

Then a couple of beauties, ‘Is Elan Vital a cult?’ By your definition, “No”. By anyone else’s, “Yes”.

And one I missed earlier, “Did Maharaji ever say he was God?”

Well, he had a poster printed saying he was greater than God. He used to sit on a throne, dressed up as Krishna, and have himself crowned, while we sang, “The Creator bows his head to you.” He had thousands of us line up to kiss his feet quite regularly. I could go on. It’s all documented and photographed.

Then there’s,

“Has Elan Vital covered up alleged past improper behaviour?”

From the waffle in your response, I sift out that you’re trying to play down and discredit the allegations, but are covering your arses from every angle, “Of course we don’t condone this sort of thing…..but if ever it were found out to be true, we would be appalled..etc.”

We are, of course, talking about the strong allegations of child abuse made from the USA and Australia, against Mahatma Jagdeo, who was a full time, paid official of the cult at the time of the offences.

You say the only information you have comes from postings on two websites. This is not true.

Mahatma Guru Charanand, a full time cult official, was informed of some very serious offences by one of the victims father.

Judy Osbourne and Randy Prouty, both full-time cult officials, were both informed by another of the victims.

I wrote four letters to Glen Whitaker. My initial reaction was to try and deal with the matter unofficially, as I know Glen as a friend. Unfortunately the responses, both personally and officially, were evasive, unsympathetic, and eventually threatening. The official letters and responses are reproduced on one of the websites your lawyers tried to close.

So that’s three verbal reports to mahatmas, ‘instructors’, or whatever the officials were called at the time, plus two personal and two official letters.

You also say that no complaint has been filed with any authorities. This is also not true. I have spoken to, made a statement, and been in communication with the Police in Cornwall, where some of the offences took place, and in Exeter, where a national police group investigating child abuse is based.

Aside from these existing accounts of Jagdeos paedophilia, another disturbing report from the USA has recently surfaced, which I believe has been reported to Elan Vital.

And what has the response of Elan Vital been these allegations? Have you spoken to Jagdeo, or contacted the police to tell them his whereabouts? Have you set up any investigation yourselves?

All you seem to have done is refuse to admit Mahatma Jagdeo was a paedophile, discredit and play down the allegations as much as possible, saying things like, “Oh we can’t investigate because we don’t know the victims names.” Their names have been on those websites you’ve been trying to close down, for a few months now. What happened, were you blinded by Divine Light every time you read a sentence with their names in?

And finally, “Has Maharaji changed what he was teaching?”

Really, do you think anyone gives a toss? Snot tastes the same whether you call it ‘Divine Nectar,’ or ‘the fourth technique’.

I look forward to your response.

Anthony Ginn

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:26:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Give this man a Pulitzer......well done (nt)
Message:
NT
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:51:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Excellent, Anth
Message:
Mind you, I haven't read shp's response yet so maybe I should reserve judgment. But, just assuming that shp doesn't persuade me that, as his subject line promises, 'it doesn't matter', I'd say you did a fine job.

Thanks.

Now, on to shppie.....

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:43:19 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You might have warned me
Message:
before writing something as hilarious as that. I had a mouthful of tea when I started, now its all over my keyboard! Thanks!

Seriously good stuff, Anth.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:21:16 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It doesn't matter!
Message:
Hi Anth,

If we can deal with this one question of 'affluent lifestyle' completely separate from any other issues...

It doesn't matter. Plain and simple. Affluence is not a crime, neither is it a guarantee that a person - excuse the expression - enjoying such a lifestyle - is not doing or cannot do good in the world and positively affect people's lives. Bias against affluence is still bias. It just goes against some people's concepts of how a teacher should manifest. But then again, what kind of student busts on his teacher for the type of cars he drives, etc? No wonder your experience tastes like snot, Anth, all due respect. Did it always taste like snot? Can you remember a time when it tasted like more?

There may be some valid issues here on this site that can use some sorting, but you are wasting your time and sounding hollow on the affluence thing. It is not an indicator of anything but the fact that Maharaji has access to alot of material plane. (No pun intended.) Having access to alot of material plane is not inherently bad or good, it's how it is used that gives it a positive or negative value. One with access to alot of material plane does have the potential to do great things in either direction.

Your brother across the way,
shp

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 10:33:03 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: It doesn't matter!
Message:
Hi Sandy,

I agree- it wouldn't matter if he was teaching something real.

My point was, Elan Vital asked themselves a quesiton, and then muttered, spluttered and finally refused to answer it.

I actually thought this was so ridiculous it was funny.

Take care

Anth

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 23:31:31 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Does anything 'matter' to you?
Message:
Man what blatant politicising. Did EV consult you over the FAQs, because it sure sounds like it?

You've taken one aspect of one of the major issues concerning the cult and its leader, studiously avoided addressing it head on and turned it around a little to defend a completely different, but safe, aspect.

In other words, detract from the main issue by stating an obvious, but irrelevant, truism.

Of course there is nothing 'wrong' with a person being affluent. There is even nothing 'wrong' with a 'guru' being affluent, either.

Here is what IS wrong, shp, see if you can grasp it:

When Young Prem came to the West back in 1971 he didn't have a pot to piss in. You remember how cute he sounded when he talked about wearing his kurta over a suit, because he didn't know what to wear? He had to bunk up with premies and be driven around in a borrowed car. A pocket full of rupees and a dream of bringing peace to the world.

Look at him today. Multi-millionaire, prime real estate the world over, luxury yachts, airplane, cars, women, you name it. The 'official' line is that he is a 'successful private investor'. Tell me, shp, where do you suppose he got the money from TO invest? Well don't bother, I'll answer it for you. He got it from me and you and thousands of other people who bought the notion that he was God in Human Form, the Perfect Master, the One Who Deserves the Best of Everything.

That is the real issue. Can you face it?

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 15:41:23 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Q: Does anything 'matter' to you? A: Yes.
Message:
Rob said:
Man what blatant politicising. Did EV consult you over the FAQs, because it sure sounds like it?

shp says:
No, man. Nothing that complicated. I just come downstairs, grab some coffee, click on my puter, read, and say what's on my mind and heart to say. I have only been to the EV/FAQ's once to check them out after hearing about them here. You way overestimate my physical involvement in EV or anything like that.

Rob said:
You've taken one aspect of one of the major issues concerning the cult and its leader, studiously avoided addressing it head on and turned it around a little to defend a completely different, but safe, aspect.

shp says:
I defend nothing, and there is nothing to defend right here.

Rob said:
In other words, detract from the main issue by stating an obvious, but irrelevant, truism.

shp says:
How irrelevant is it to you? It's the theme of the damned thread! You and yours have made it relevant, at least here on this site. And I am here to tell ya that when you troubleshoot a system or situation, you have to remove irrelevant issues and debris. Maharaji's affluence is in no way an indicator of anything, other than the fact that he has access to alot of material stuff, much of which he has used to spread Knowledge
and build up a financial reservoir for the future, which will undoubtedly require large financial needs not only for himself, but for those who subscribe to his teachings. He did not need such large pieces of land as Amaroo and the others for just his own personal use, nor did he purchase a jet to visit himself or just to vacation. Much of his wealth is spent for the enjoyment and the future of the premies as well as himself. I do not begrudge him for the finer things that he enjoys in his spare time. I think he is entitled to them, even though I have never been wealthy myself and have been through alot with downsizing and high tech changes in the professional world.

Rob said:
Of course there is nothing 'wrong' with a person being affluent. There is even nothing 'wrong' with a 'guru' being affluent, either.

shp says:
I doubt that all the exers will agree with you on that one.

Rob said:
Here is what IS wrong, shp, see if you can grasp it:
When Young Prem came to the West back in 1971 he didn't have a pot to piss in. You remember how cute he sounded when he talked about wearing his kurta over a suit, because he didn't know what to wear? He had to bunk up with premies and be driven around in a borrowed car. A pocket full of rupees and a dream of bringing
peace to the world.

shp says:
Yeah, I heard stories in Miami how he used to sleep over at the Brickell ashram and stand in line to use the bathroom with everybody else.

Rob said:
Look at him today. Multi-millionaire, prime real estate the world over, luxury yachts, airplane, cars, women, you name it. The 'official' line is that he is a 'successful private investor'. Tell me, shp, where do you suppose he got the money from TO invest? Well don't bother, I'll answer it for you. He got it from me and you and thousands of other people who bought the notion that he was God in Human Form, the Perfect Master, the One Who Deserves the Best of Everything.

That is the real issue. Can you face it?

shp says:
What I can face is the reality that when I practice Knowledge things always sync up in my life more smoothly and in a more peaceful and calm way. Even when things don't go 'my way', it's still a more even process. Life itself, moment to moment, is felt and appreciated more often and more consistently the more I practice. Knowledge keeps me cognizant of being alive and being a human being in a deeper way than everyday life affords. It's not a dumbing down or a trance or anything like that. Rather, it is a heightened consciousness. Anything that can raise my consciousness is good. That does not mean that the vehicle, the delivery system of the experience is perfect, for being in the physical, it never will be. Just like you may have a message that is more advanced than your computer is, but you can type it in there and hit submit anyway...so your message is not limited by your older technology.

For me, it's real. Nobody can argue with that...well, you can, but to no avail. All you can do is share what's real for you. Everything else is speculation.

In the 'world' when you get conned, you get ripped off and left with less than you started. With Maharaji and Knowledge, even if you want to consider what he did as a 'con', which is your right to do, you have been left with more than you started. You know Knowledge is within you and you know its power and gentleness if you ever felt anything from it. If not, I advise you to give it another shot. So even if you think you got 'conned' by Maharaji and he has a bunch of money and all that, you were most likely left in better inner condition than when you started, if you ever felt anything good from your practice.

Just like other things that are opposite from his world to the physical...those tupperware containers all fit into the bigger ones, and the infinite fits inside of us....con artists rip you off in a con, and Maharaji gives you something that money can't buy. As for how he uses it, I heard that he had invited some premies from a war-torn country in South America, I believe, to come and stay at Amaroo for their safety. Many years ago, I myself borrowed money from and repaid it to a premie business to cover my rent. I felt like Maharaji was moving through the ashram premie who allowed that transaction. Even earlier, when I was still part nomad, a Miami premie ashram housefather/coordinator, Mark Lerner, God bless him, allowed me to sleep in his DLM car, that grey or light blue Malibu until I found a place to stay. So my direct experiences have been my guides and I have encountered unconditional love filling my needs through many different people affiliated with Maharaji. Of course there are the bongos, both in suits and in rags, at the front of the stage and outside the hall. It has always been thus. But that is not why I came to him, to evaluate his followers, especially the obvious wackos. I came to receive Knowledge and be with and serve the person who could reveal it to me.

A pocketful of rupees and a dream of bringing peace to the world indeed...not bad for an eighth grade drop-out and some international hippies and seekers of truth, eh? The foolish things of the world shall confound the wise and prudent....
and hundreds of thousands upon thousands of people worldwide who can experience the universal inner peace now because of his efforts...the very experience that we human beings were born and destined to experience as human beings...why we were born into human bodies in the first place. All the other aspects of our lives are secondary to experiencing the ineffable reason for being. They are still important, but in their proper priority.

So while you and I have been in and out of practicing, loving and hatng, questioning, etc...he has been faithfully and methodically spreading Knowledge throughout the world, which is to say that he has been bringing peace to the world. If you thought he was going to bring a political peace, then you have been seriously mistaken. It has always been brought like this, one at a time, like popcorn, or roses blooming on a vine. The whole cool thing about Knowledge and the inner peace it brings is that we are not dependent upon outer circumstances for fulfillment. We are free of trying to make the imperfect and limited material plane be our ultimate source of joy...what a relief!

Please accept this little rant under the clause in your ex-premie intro page 'anything and everything...premies and ex-premies....'

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 02:24:00 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Q: Does anything 'matter' to you? A: Yes.
Message:
Dear shp,

It seems clear to me that you get a great deal from the experience you have when practising the knowledge. I would say that you find the experience to be very sustaining for you and that it provides you with a sense of worth and purpose. Tell me if I am wrong.

Consequently I imagine that you have great difficulty taking many of the complaints against Maharaj Ji seriously as compared to your inner experience - they just don't rate.

Now another way of looking at this is that I also imagine that you feel you would be unable to have the same experience from anything but practising the knowledge. I reckon that if you are correct in this assertion/idea/belief then I'm all for you continuing on your own merry way. But if you stuck to your beliefs simply because you were afraid or fearful of losing the experience then you would be supporting MaharajJi simly because of your own fear. Now this fear may manifest itself as ignoring certain 'facts' or arguing in a specious manner and other things.

When I stopped practising I was most afraid of losing the experience. I was delighted and surprised when I found other ways to access the experience and other ways came to me simply from living a rich life. I was also afraid of losing the 'grace' but I was shocked when I found that 'grace' of sorts (that is - good luck, serendipity, fortuitous encounters, etc) continues to follow me. I was afraid I would lose my meaning for life - when I really found greater depth of meaning for life - and this continues to blow me away. And I didn't lose what I had learned, I built on what I had learned - nothing is lost. And my self-esteem and love of life has grown as a consequence. So my fear was keeping me from moving on and I wonder whether you may be similarly motivated by fear - which is after all only a negative future projection.

Cheers for now

Peter Howie

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 12:41:00 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Q: Does anything 'matter' to you? A: Yes.
Message:
Peter said:
It seems clear to me that you get a great deal from the experience you have when practising the knowledge. I would say that you find the experience to be very sustaining for you and that it provides you with a sense of worth and purpose. Tell me if I am wrong.

shp says:
So far, so good.

Peter said:
Consequently I imagine that you have great difficulty taking many of the complaints against Maharaj Ji seriously as compared to your inner experience - they just don't rate.

shp says:
Peter, this is where you start to misread me. I still have a hard time dealing with many of my own personal life experiences, with or without Knowledge. I must have 'disneyfied' my personal experience too much or something. Shit still happens to me and I am not always in the flow of grace quite enough to avoid it. So it goes with the territory. Heavy stuff going on in many of our lives right now on both sides of Maharaji. So the complaints that are logged here about Maharaji do not automatically kick me into some autolock on my brain or anything like that. I do not have the 'great difficulty' that you imagine. Most of the complaints logged here are not what I would consider something heavy enough to change my perception of Maharaji. My own personal experience has taught me not to scrutinize or judge the personal life of a teacher if the teacher is genuinely teaching and delivering what he or she is advertising or teaching.

Peter said:
Now another way of looking at this is that I also imagine that you feel you would be unable to have the same experience from anything but practising the knowledge. I reckon that if you are correct in this assertion/idea/belief then I'm all for you continuing on your own merry way. But if you stuck to your beliefs simply because you were afraid or fearful of losing the experience then you would be supporting MaharajJi simply because of your own fear. Now this fear may manifest itself as ignoring certain 'facts' or arguing in a specious manner and other things.

shp says:
I believe that I could have a fine life, complete with the great experience, if I was so moved to without Maharaji. Fear is not an issue here. I see Maharaji as someone very special in the play we are all in.

Peter said:
When I stopped practising I was most afraid of losing the experience. I was delighted and surprised when I found other ways to access the experience and other ways came to me simply from living a rich life. I was also afraid of losing the 'grace' but I was shocked when I found that 'grace' of sorts (that is - good luck, serendipity, fortuitous encounters, etc) continues to follow me. I was afraid I would lose my meaning for life -
when I really found greater depth of meaning for life - and this continues to blow me away. And I didn't lose what I had learned, I built on what I had learned - nothing is lost. And my self-esteem and love of life has grown as a consequence. So my fear was keeping me from moving on and I wonder whether you may be similarly motivated by fear - which is after all only a negative future projection.

shp says:
Thank you for sharing your experience of how it is for you after leaving Maharaji, and for your civility. I am not where you are or were at. To the best of all my known faculties, fear is not motivating me to stay on.

Sincerely,
shp

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 04:41:50 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Q: Does anything 'matter' to you? A: Yes.
Message:
Thanks for the thoughtful, and as you say, to the best of your knowledge, response. That is all any of us can do I reckon.

Cheers

Peter

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 16:01:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: ***HILARIOUS SHPISM ENCLOSED***
Message:
From the Office of Elan Vital Volunteers and Shp

Dear Persons With Knowledge,

Some of you have, over the years, allowed your minds to plague you a bit over your future. Few of you have established lucrative careers in the world and hardly any of you have been able to save any significant money for tomorrow. You've been here now, baby and, won't you agree, what a moment it has been! Yeah, baby!

Anyway, this is just to remind you that, although you yourselves might have saved nothing or very little for your inevitable retirement (should you ever be able to take one), Maharaji's got you covered. Here is how brother Sanford Pass, a/k/a Shp, put it for the ex-premie scum bags on their web of lies page:

Maharaji's affluence is in no way an indicator of anything, other than the fact that he has access to alot of material stuff, much of which he has used to spread Knowledge
and build up a financial reservoir for the future, which will undoubtedly require large financial needs not only for himself, but for those who subscribe to his teachings.

Obviously, as Shp explains, you have nothing to worry about. So just keep giving and let Maharaji do your saving for you. Don't forget, he's a tried and true successful investor. So let Maharaji put your money to work for you. After all, if the one-time Lord of the Universe can't call the markets, who can?

Yeah, baby!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:11:46 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: 'Dear Persons..?' What happened to education?
Message:
Tis is NO LONGER A CULT I AM PROUD TO BE AN EX-MEMBER OF. And I'd even quit being an ex if such were possible.

To which cult should I direct my kids when my own CULT cannot even provide the barest bones of advice on looking after kids and the rest. How to be good? How to be happy? How to bow? How to kiss a Master's flesh without leaving cum-stains in the darshan tunnel? Is nothing fucking sacred?

I sometimes wonder whether this EV crowd have the kids' best interests at heart..?

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 17:51:13 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim perverts everything to his viewpoint..so
Message:
what else is new? Whoever has the ears to hear what is being said will hear it and whoever wants to twist and spin will do that. All is right with the world, even here with you, Jim.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:46:20 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Sounds interesting, nice alliteration but...
Message:
I feel that there is much, much more going on with Maharaji and Knowledge beyond the trips and traps constantly harped upon here on his site.

So what do you feel that is 'much, much more' and will aid the plight of poor harpists?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 12:47:21 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Sounds interesting, nice alliteration but...
Message:
shp said:
I feel that there is much, much more going on with Maharaji and Knowledge beyond the trips and traps constantly harped upon here on his site.

Nigel said:
So what do you feel that is 'much, much more' and will aid the plight of poor harpists?

shp says:
The 'much much more' is not something I can flop on a table and dissect for you, like a frog in a biology class or something.
As for the 'plight of the poor harpists', staying tuned up will definitely help you in all ways. And somehow, don't ask me how, staying tuned up opens up awareness to the 'much much more'.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 23:09:20 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: It DOES matter!!!
Message:
'He has access to a lot of material plane'--oh shippy. The problem with abstract new age notions like that is that the language distances you from opening your eyes to what is really going on.

You too, could have access to 'a lot of material plane'. You could do it honorably, ie, run a business, write a bestseller, invest wisely in the stockmarket. Or you could come by it DISHONESTLY through taking advantage of people, which is exactly what M has done.
Shippy shippy shippy--still not making moral judgments about M, are ya? That's really a shame, really.
You're still not ready to face facts about M, are ya????

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:32:07 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Rule the Forum, Helen...
Message:
yer the best!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 02:33:28 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Hey Nigel
Message:
Nigel,
I just can't understand how someone can hang out here on the forum for so long and not connect the dots on the point of M's affluence. shippy wants to say that M has a lot of 'material plane' and since it is 'material' it is not relevant. okay well then, I say to shippy, who is a man who wants to look at the deeper level, look at what M does on the spiritual plane, on the psychological plane, on the emotional plane. That stuff is far worse--and boils down to spiritual rape, IMO. M profits from and contributes to the denigration of a person's self-esteem and dignity. And this is called love? A person has to engage in incredible chinese box-like rationalizations for M's behavior to get 'love' on the 'sum' side of the equation. You can only twist your thinking up like that for so long. At some point shippy will see the light. He doesn't judge me for my 'path' & I can't say I judge him really, but I judge M and I judge him straight to the depths of hell!!

helen, Queen of all she surveys

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 03:47:32 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: oh and they do engage in those chinese
Message:
box-like rationalizations.
What a great way to put it.

It's what put me over the edge and made me leave finally, watching that circus act around me over and over til I wanted to scream, puke, run I don't kmow what.

You are a good writer.
oh yeah we keep talking about writing together.
One of these days :)

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 23:57:40 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: oh and they do engage in those chinese
Message:
writing with you was pure pleasure, baby! All the more pleasurable because we were in it for the fun and not worrying about the outcome. Kinda like having good sex, ha ha!!
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:31:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: wow Helen I didn't know you like it THAY much
Message:
We should definitely do it again:)
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 15:53:56 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: It DOES matter!!!
Message:
Helen said:

Shippy shippy shippy--still not making moral judgments about M, are ya? That's really a shame, really. You're still not ready to face facts about M, are ya????

shp says:

Hi Helen. Hope your man is doing OK. I caught something in a thread about him and all the best to you both.

I don't have my head in the sand, I am not naiive, and I do have an active and awake conscience and consciousness. I feel that there is much, much more going on with Maharaji and Knowledge beyond the trips and traps constantly harped upon here on this site. Some people got hurt along the way. Nobody I know wanted or liked that, except maybe for the sick perpetrator(s), who were not in their right mind in the first place. I feel that the bigger picture is being lost.

I am not afraid for myself, covering up for anyone else, or anything like that. I really sincerely feel the way I just described above. I see what you see, I'm not blind. I just read it differently and come to different conclusions. And I do not judge your path as being right or wrong, good or bad. It is your path. I respect your right to that, so I do not morally judge you either.
shp

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 16:12:03 (GMT)
From: a question for
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: SHP
Message:
Do you have any problem with the born again Christian televangelists who seem to get rich from the donations of the faithful? I think some of them have awfully affluent lifestyles ( though not as much so as the guru). Does it not seem they get rich from exploitation of the spiritually naive? As does Prem Pal Singh Rawat?

Rawat's riches come from one source, premies, PWK's, showing 'gratitude'. He's become a very wealthy man playing the role of best imaginary friend to a bunch of gullible people, myself included.

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 18:09:45 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: a question for
Subject: Q/A
Message:
'a question for' said:
Do you have any problem with the born again Christian televangelists who seem to get rich from the donations of the faithful? I think some of them have awfully affluent lifestyles
(though not as much so as the guru). Does it not seem they get rich from exploitation of the spiritually naive? As does Prem Pal Singh Rawat?

shp says:
Your question is loaded, but I will answer it without the hammer drawn back as you handed it to me. Do I 'have a problem' with the televangelists? They can't make me send them money, I'm hip to the 'fear of hell sell', so no problem. (By the way, did you catch the most recent South Park episode where Cartman becomes a preacher? Priceless!) As a group they are some of the worst drivers on the road, anyone with a religious bumper sticker, stay out of their way! I'm serious!

I think the televangelists as a group are spiritually ignorant, and as a result become unwitting charlatans. I also think that mixed in there may be some very sincere preachers who believe in what they are doing and live decent exemplary lives. For the most part, I think they think they are right-on, and I don't think they realize the delusion they are caught up in.

I think that Maharaji is sincerely doing what his father directed him to do for the last 30-some years, being to spread Knowledge to the whole world, wherever it is received and welcomed.

'aqf' said:
Rawat's riches come from one source, premies, PWK's, showing 'gratitude'. He's become a very wealthy man playing the role of best imaginary friend to a bunch of gullible people, myself included.

shp says:
You either buy it or you don't. What is the problem? For me, when I really focus it's not imaginary, it's very real. Try it.

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 16:10:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: ***EXTRA! EXTRA! SHP ABSOLVES HELEN***
Message:
In the post above, Shp states his position on the controversial subject of Helen's choice of path. He says, as you can see for yourself, that he does not -- I repeat: does not judge her path as being either 'right' or 'wrong'.

Furthermore, he does not judge whether it is 'good' or 'bad'.

As Shp says, it is Helen's path:

And I do not judge your path as being right or wrong, good or bad. It is your path. I respect your right to that, so I do not morally judge you either.

Shp clearly states, in addition to all that, that he respects Helen's right 'to that'. (Our in-house analysts offer a tenatative opinion that 'that' means Helen's path although they have consulted with their colleagues in New York and will advise us further later today, they say).

In any event, Shp clearly states that he does not morally judge Helen either.

Yeah, baby!

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 18:14:43 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You used 'absolve' wrong Jimbo.
Message:
And I don't judge your path either...but I sure wouldn't want to walk it. You seem like one miserable fuck. Have fun with the caps and asterisks. Slow day at the Forum, slumming with stupid ol' shp? Don't worry, things will pick up soon, I'm sure. I'll understand when you start to blissfully ignore me again. Really.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:47:31 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Shippie, try to make me proud of you..(nt)
Message:
dfth
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 17:01:07 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: 'How its used'
Message:
So, shp, affluence is not a problem, it's 'how its used.'

Good point. So endowing foundations to help alleviate poverty and disease would be good, while spending it on luxury items like private planes and pricey automobiles and expensive cognac would be bad, right? Or do I have it backwards?

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:34:36 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Afluence without paying taxes doesn't matter? nt
Message:
Afluence without paying taxes doesn't matter? nt
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 15:57:02 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's...
Message:
...and if there are laws protecting Maharaji's accessable wealth from taxes in the present system, what is your problem with that?

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:20:32 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: you are a TOTAL asshole!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 17:25:47 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: But he's not rendering - he's ripping off!
Message:
Maha's only abiding by the law IF Elan Vital is a church.

You think EV's a church, Sandy?

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 18:28:18 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Wise as a serpent-harmless as a dove, so what?
Message:
cq asked:
You think EV's a church, Sandy?

shp answers:
I don't know what the legal definition of a church is, cq. If the law allows for EV to fit into the definition of a church, then legally so it is a church.

Do I think it's a church? If EV is providing support to assist Maharaji's work to spread Knowledge, then yes I think it is a church.

I think it's more of a church than many of the hollow dead buildings you and I and many others here sat in when we were kids in family-inherited religions that delivered no buzz of a divine connection of any kind, just alot of rules and traditions and rituals and money changing hands in the direction of the church....which is one big reason why we sought out Maharaji in the first place those many years ago. Remember?

The 'church' is actually the physical (or otherwise) presence of the body of believers in any given belief system, and the spirit that holds them together.

Do you have something against having material wealth? Do you think it is inherently bad?

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 19:01:06 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Material wealth in M's pocket that came from mine?
Message:
Sorry, Sandy, in my book the guy's a beggar.

'lot of rules and traditions and rituals and money
changing hands'
you say?

Sounds like EV to a tee. So maybe it IS a church after all!

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:17:59 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: It doesn't matter! But THIS does
Message:
The trouble is, SHP, Maharaji didn't get the money from being an entrepeneur. He got the money because he conned people into believing he was the Lord and it was all donated to him because the poor naive fools that we were, wanted to give the very best to God on Earth.

That does matter a lot, just how Maharaji got his money. He got it by deception. People also donated a lot of money to spread this knowledge to every land and most of that went straight into Maharaji's back pocket.

Maharaji is a thief and a con man. Personally I have no time for him.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:04:13 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp: you are very quick to come to the mark and
Message:
defend gum ji. In fact you pushed everyone out of the way to make your point. Offcourse you isolated one issue out of the whole post, and very simply brushed it away.

In answer to your bullshit post, you forgot that gum ji has in access of over 50 million dollers in material plane assets only, not counting the greenbacks.

You also forgot that it is stollen money, and therefore because he is a theif, he will not do good with that money.

Lastly, you are a turd for trying to blind yourself to the issue of gum ji. It goes way beyound your pethetic deduction.

As I said before, gum ji and his little pet EV need to be brought to justice for questioning and it will happen sooner or later.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 17:10:10 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: and alechem salam to you, too.
Message:
salaam said:
...defend gum ji. In fact you pushed everyone out of the way to make your point. Offcourse you isolated one issue out of the whole post, and very simply brushed it away.

shp says:
Oh, I don't know about that. I got up like I normally do, got a cup of coffee, sat down and did my thing. I didn't 'push' any one. You are a flipped out fanatic, slam, I mean salam.

salam said:
In answer to your bullshit post, you forgot that gum ji has in access of over 50 million dollers in material plane assets only, not counting the greenbacks.

shp says:
I can't forget what I never knew. I never knew the $50MM figure.
And if so, that is no indication of anything.

salam said:
You also forgot that it is stollen money, and therefore because he is a theif, he will not do good with that money.

shp says:
I don't agree with you.

salam said:
Lastly, you are a turd for trying to blind yourself to the issue of gum ji. It goes way beyound your pethetic deduction.

shp says:
Why do you find the need to evaluate my existence? I don't have the need to evaluate yours. If you don't believe him fine for you. If I think there is someting deeper going on than even you are aware of, that is my right.

As I said before, gum ji and his little pet EV need to be brought to justice for questioning and it will happen sooner or later.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 18:41:59 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Get a life shp
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 19:00:48 (GMT)
From: and I may add
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: read my post to Shrrom below, you both
Message:
belong in the same boat.

Salam

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:04:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Query: Is Shp really as stupid as he sounds?
Message:
Query: Does Shp really not understand the relevance of Maharaji's wealth to the issues alive here?

I'm too embarrassed to spell them out. There comes a time when one's fingers just can't do it anymore. It's too basic, too obvious.

But tell me this, Joe, if you're reading this, do you have a response for shp that isn't 'mean'? And, if so, why bother?

All that's left when talking to this brain carcass is to kick it a bit. Roll it over in the sun and let the ants get to some other part.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 18:54:57 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Query: The ex-premie premie haters club lives!
Message:
Kinda like the 'female woman haters club' circa the Little Rascals.

This is shp's brain on Jim:
Roll it over in the sun and let the ants get to some other part.

shp says:
Yeah, after the big flesh eating predators like you get done, that's real sweet of ya! I think that's very thoughtful of you to roll it so Anth can get to it.

I could be away from this site for weeks and come back and you will still be frothing at the mouth about something or other, or counseling your peers here on what is politcally correct this season for ex-premies to be reading, believing, or which premies are to be intellectually beheaded and which ones you still deem OK to play with a bit longer. You are so predictable you are boring.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 22:38:35 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp, couldn't resist it!
Message:
You are so predictable you are boring.

Talking about you again? Premies are so, so self-centered!

;)

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 16:00:43 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: That is your problem.
Message:
You can't resist being a jerk just for the hell of it, no substance in your post, just bad vibes and letters dancing on my screen. What a waste of technology and a human brain.

Anything constructive to share?

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 22:02:54 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: That is YOUR problem.
Message:
I reacted to the end of your above post:

You are so predictable you are boring.

That is all. Thanks for your compelements. Same to you.

You are predictable and boring, here, no?

So nice that we can all have different opinions. I do not like your evasive mentality.

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 16:15:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Shp, your toxic shmozzle calls for a regular suppl
Message:
y of white blood cells.
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 18:38:11 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: From an apheresis donor to you with a sick liver
Message:
Jim,

I suggest you try something called Can-gest. It can be found or ordered at most any reputable health food store. It is a capsule of assorted herbs and roots that clean out and detoxify the liver. I urge you to try it, or do something for your poor liver. As for your brain, oatstraw enemas will pull those toxins right out of your head! Happy hosing!

shp

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:07:07 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Query: Is Shp really as stupid as he sounds?
Message:
You forgot to ask a,b or c.

But turd is a good one.

Anyway I answered for you.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 14:40:43 (GMT)
From: Lee
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Does Maharaji have an affluent lifestyle?
Message:
Very clear and concise! Everyone knows, exes and premies alike, that Maharaji has an affluent lifestyle. Why people should want to deny it or justify it is another matter altogether...It smacks of cult-think through and through.

Hope you are doing well. A bientot.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 14:34:45 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Great post! Classic AJW! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 06:34:14 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Rob and others
Subject: All the joie de vivre of your average cantaloupe
Message:
Rob says:
V19568 FEI Number
650317684 Date Filed
03/09/1992
State
FL Status
ACTIVE Effective Date
NONE

SCUTARI, PIERO
-------------- (addresses eliminated)
--------------

DOMINGUEZ, MANUEL JORGE
----------------
----------------

GABRIELLI, NATHALIE
--------------
MIAMI BCH FL V
[guess who else lives there!]

DOMINGUEZ, VANIA
---------------
MIAMI BEACH FL
ad nauseum

to which Danny replies:
Excuse me....knock, knock - is this thing on?

Didn't you people have some sort of semi-honorable policy regarding printing people's phone numbers and/or addresses on the Web for no other conceivable purpose than harassment?

(You might imagine this next sentence in a Basil Fawlty voice) Or are you so caught up in being amateur, fantasy-league, FBI agents that it's escaped your purview?

Rob, I gotta tell ya, you were SO much more interesting, charming and imaginative as Rob, the fake 'inside information' premie, dispensing bogus agya and trying to impress the fair sheilas with your kilts and sensitivity as you rogueishly confounded the ranks of the unwashed with your Zorro-like, dashing displays of imaginary access and insight.

This Rob? What a yawner... ZZzzzzzz Helicopter call numbers, boat licenses in Marseille, faint impressions of Mercedes tracks in the snow outside Newport and half-assed impressions of Jim Heller and his strychnine n' lime cocktails...unfortunately, your epistles read more like an old Sears catalog than a new Don DeLillo or Martin Cruz Smith.

This is your work? It's more like a trip to the Department of Motor Vehicles. Time to invent a new Rob!

Time for some serious investigative work...you could grab a Minox or 2 with Joey and photograph various suspects - Michael Dettmers, Jossi Fresco, Vania Dominguez, etc. as they leave their homes or offices.. Ask their neighbors some leading questions...alert their bosses about their secret lives as robotic, mechanical cult SLAVES!! who do only what they're told and are liable to fly to Brussels upon a secret signal at any given moment to tremble and fawn in the fear-based atmosphere of their transportation and plumbing-fixture-intoxicated Guru. Who spends his every waking hour drinking, scratching and scheming up new ways to extract yet another dollar from video sales in Mauritius and trains squadrons of dull-eyed goons in the arts of deadly assault and global-scale child abuse.

No, the people should take YOUR life as an inspiration. They should, upon reading this, stop doing that which means the most and feels the best to them and...

Start printing other people's addresses on the Internet, endlessly rehash dribble and drivel that you don't know to be true, call the IRS, cops and other government agencies on people that perhaps used to be your friends (or wives or teacher), vilify anyone who disagrees with you, declaim at length on factoids that you don't even remember inventing or regurgitating, speculate on the motives and habits of people you don't even know and, in most cases, have never met...and

Completely forget what it was that felt so right about the whole thing 'cause, sadly, it can't be remembered. It's a bit outside of the bailiwick of memory. Even remembering how it felt to be in love with an old girlfriend is pretty tough. You can only remember faintly that you once DID...and that might very well fade, eventually...or turn sour. In this arena, perhaps the only thing you accurately remember is the sweaty, uncomfortable face of David Smith rambling on about some bus ride and its profound ramifications or some protein-challenged WPC guy in London being stupid, callous and insensitive to a bumbershoot-deprived single mother.

Hell can be found just about anywhere, if you look hard enough for it.

Then, of course, there IS the option of accepting that other people have taken a different fork in the road than you have, or vice-versa. There is even the distant possibility that you might have utterly mis-read some motives.

Or, you can collect names and numbers. Do an Edgar Hoover, you randy sleuth, you. Smoke out the bastards, make it your life's work. Wearing, naturally, the Emperor’s new trench coat and smoking an invisible pipe. B10089ZM14MR

to which Rob's scintillating riposte is:

http://ccfcorp.dos.state.fl.us/corpweb/inquiry/corinam.html

Is a PUBLIC RECORDS facility of the Florida Division of Corporations. Type in Bestway in the search field and you will get to the record which I reproduced above.

If you have a problem with that, I suggest you take it up with Jeb Bush.

You really are too stupid to talk to.

To which Danny says:

Geez, Rob...what a well thought out and beautifully constructed reply. Glad to see those creative juices are still flowing. Well, sounds like you've got some more episodes of Dragnet to tape. Sincerely yours, B10089ZM14MR

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:55:31 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Me thinks thou dost protest too much....
Message:
Danny, if you really think Rob is just a bore and ineffective, why do you care? Could it be that Rob might be hitting a few nerves and making things uncomfortable for some people? Who knows? I definitely would take quite a sleuth to decode the Byzantine structure of corporations and entities used to keep the Maharaji-cult-world and it's financial doings afloat.

Of course, many people think full disclosure is a good thing. Who knows of what use it could come to? Can't hurt though, can it? Informed choice is a pretty good maxim. Reprinting public records isn't exactly disclosing information that persons don't know is already public. Presumably they have already given their consent for the entire public to know about it, even ex-premies.

Regarding 'remembering the feeling,' I for one, do. In fact, it's not a memory. See, it doesn't go away when you reject Maharaji, although he would rather you didn't know that. See, Danny, Maharaji is not the source of the nice 'experience' that I remember. That is a big lie. But then, what is the problem? The problem is that if you take Maharaji with the 'experience' you get a lot of other baggage that many people would prefer not to have, got tired of, or think is kind of silly.

And then, there are other nice experiences that have nothing to do with 'knowledge.' They have to do with being in a cult. These, for me, included the feeling of freedom I had on cutting all ties and moving into the ashram, the 'group high' I got at Maharaji programs (that actually stopped happening towards the end for me), the nice 'experience' I had believing I loved a fat Indian guy I only saw sitting on thrones at programs. It was a nice 'experience' to think he was taking care of me, giving me 'grace' and providing all my good experiences through the ethers. It wasn't true, but it was nice to believe it anyway.

Also, let's face it, it is sometimes a nice experience if you believe in, and have faith in something you believe is a simple solution to life's problems, is always 'there' to rely on when things don't go well, that you believe your true 'heart' or 'purpose' beyond the morality of life. But it isn't true, and many people, including me, feel much, much better accepting the truth. And when I did that, however hard it was at first, the 'experience' didn't go away, it just became more honest.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:50:02 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: joie de noir
Message:
You're a great writer, Danny. Despite what some say about PWK's, I guess practicing K doesn't necessarily erode the intellect.

I'm not interested in your beef with Rob, but something else in your post needs answering: you claim that the experience of Knowledge is 'outside the baliwick of meomory.'

That is, like, SO wrong! I remember 'that feeling,' that harmonious bhakti buzz, perfectly well. That experience is not some subtle, ephemeral wisp of a feeling. It is quite strong and quite unforgettable.

I remember saying and thinking the same thing, that once you leave Maharaj Ji, the mind, being so powerful, somehow distorts or erases the experience.

Why is this belief so prevalent? Simply this: it explains how a devotee could fall away from the path. A true believer couldn't possibly admit to himself that there may be more satisfying and congruent paths outside the flock of the faithful.

Well, Danny, there are. As nice as the buzz can be, bigger and better buzzes await those who are open to change.

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 21:22:02 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Gregg, etc.
Subject: Thanks for your (mostly) civil responses
Message:
Hi again,

You gentlemen (and lady) have, for the most part, refrained from name-calling and excessive amounts of ex-speak (which, by the way, has become at least as jargony as elk-speak) so I'd like to respond to a few of your salient points.

Joe said: Informed choice is a pretty good maxim. Reprinting public records isn't exactly disclosing information that persons don't know is already public.

Danny: Printing people's addresses on the Web, who you've never met, for the sole purpose of 'outing' and harassment, is despicable. If you changed the name of the target group from premies to gays or Jews and had the ability to stand back and get some perspective, I think you'd be horrified. That, added to Rob's new persona as Hercule Poirot (or Inspector Clouseau), is what motivated me to write here in the first place. There's a big difference between the words informed and informer.

Gregg said: you claim that the experience of Knowledge is 'outside the baliwick of memory.' That is, like, SO wrong! I remember 'that feeling,' that harmonious bhakti buzz, perfectly well. That experience is not some subtle, ephemeral wisp of a feeling. It is quite strong and quite unforgettable.

Danny: A few of you folks addressed this and all had a different angle on it. What memory can contain is actually quite an interesting topic. And Gregg, you describe it quite nicely and I congratulate you for acknowledging the power of what resides within. However, memory does fade and IS quite gullible and corruptible. This might explain why Maharaji is ascribed no qualities at all and why the descriptions of him bear no trace of perception or reality. Maybe for some people he was just 'a fat Indian guy I only saw sitting on thrones at programs' as Joe so sweetly put it. Perhaps some people were merely swept up in a bizarre momentum. For others, it's a lasting, resonant and strong relationship with a radiant, funny and wise character that has only deepened and become more real and more rewarding.

It's hard enough to accurately remember Chinese meals from a year ago. When it comes to heightened experiences, such as the depth and richness of feeling at a birth or death, can you truly remember how much you felt? I can't even fully recapture the extent of my glee at getting a steal on a deal on ebay.

Gregg also said: As nice as the buzz can be, bigger and better buzzes await those who are open to change.

Danny: As much as I'd love to measure buzzes with you, I'll accept that your buzz is enormous. Things change in my life all the time and as long as my capacity for fun, mischief, love and adventure continues to swell, I'll consider it a sufficient heart-on.

Lurkex said: I'm aware that by no means was my time with MJ all suffering. A lot of it felt quite good, to the dissociated part of myself I was living in. The problem was that the particular nature of the 'buzz' was UNINTEGRATED. This meant for me that the more I experienced the 'up, up, infinitely up' thing, the more my other parts got sicker and sicker and more abandoned. In retrospect I feel this kind of buzz was more of a trance than a really grounded experience.

Danny: Excellent point and clearly articulated. I think it takes a good while to 'integrate your buzz' and I think the excitement of the time you refer to obliterated a lot of balance and common sense. It is possible to have a 'grounded' buzz, which also prevents electrocution. Now, as to how it measures up against Greg's buzz, which may be the Milton Berle of buzzes....

Way said: I don't like cars and I am anxiously awaiting electric
vehicles or some other alternative, but I nevertheless went over to look at the cars. Among them was a black 1965 model, in fact the top 1965 corvette in the world. The hood was up, exposing the
immaculate engine. When I saw how clean that engine was I was
moved almost to tears. I actually had to hold them back, because it would not do to be seen crying over a corvette. The love and care that had been showered on that automobile was truly inspiring and I felt a really good feeling, a familiar feeling, a feeling that should be courted and celebrated, and shared, and certainly never limited to any one religion, or one automobile, or one self-proclaimed guru.

Danny: Get it where you can find it, Way. If that particular Corvette had that effect on as many people in as many places and over as long a time period as Maharaji has, some people would travel long distances to see it. They might even buy it a plane. There might be other people saying, 'it's just a damn car and an oil-guzzler at that. The license plate is B1009ZR.'

Way also said: I don't miss the master. Ever. He is not the master of that feeling. He lies when he says he is. And both Mr. Rawat and yourself do a dis-service to that feeling when you limit it in the way you do.

Danny: He's done a pretty damn consistent job of evoking it and reminding me about it for almost 30 years. And I'm not exactly alone in that assessment. With or without props...alone in a room or around 15,000 people...when I've been inspired or flat as a pancake. But that's me. I see someone who's consistently delivered. You don't. That's fine. By the way, I try not to limit it at all. I don't always succeed but that's a pretty silly declaration for you to make to someone you don't know.

Way: It is not us who has lost a portion of our humanity. We have reclaimed it. You have not.

Danny: Verily, I am shamed.

Oh, and Rob, Pulitzer has one l.

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 22:18:16 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Re:Thanks for your (mostly) civil responses
Message:
Danny,

You've certainly changed your tone. And the change in is the right direction, perhaps making a real discussion possible. You are now expresing your pro-Rawat stance in a decent, polite, and intellectually sound manner, a real rarity here.

And you actually make some points that are worth discussing further. But if you are indeed interested in engaging ex-premies in an on-going and serious discussion, it would help to know if you have ever posted here under a different name. You obviously have a long history of reading this Forum and it would only be intellectual fair to know a little bit about who we are talking with.

I will not address your point about posting people's names and addresses since I have not ever done so. I will leave that issue for others to address. I believe there is indeed some guidelines that the Forum Administrators try to inforce.

However, I would like to address the little issue between us about losing one's humanity when one is in a cult. I initially made those comments to you because your statements about 'remembering the feeling' made it seem that you were denouncing ex-premies as people who have forgotten their own heart, as if leaving Mr. Rawat and his meditation automatically divorces us from that good feeling. I hope you see what a cultish stance that would be, if indeed that is the stance that you actually accept. If, on the contrary, you accept the possibility that fulfillment can be found without Mr. Rawat and his influence, it would be helpful for you to acknowledge that, and I would quit trying to 'shame' you.

I also must insist and reiterate my statement that Mr. Rawat is not the master of that feeling, that he unnaturally limits that feeling when he connects it intimately with himself and his particular methods. No, human fulfillment should never be confined to Mr. Rawat and his four techniques. Humanity does not need an 'enigma' (as Elan Vital calls him). It would be perfectly ok if all Mr. Rawat did was to 'do a consistent job' of evoking that feeling and reminding people of that feeling (as you say he does), but that is not all he does. He calls himself the master of that feeling and lets his followers believe him to be the source of that feeling. There is a big big difference between helping people find that feeling and claiming yourself to be the master. Perhaps you see my point?

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:04:18 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Bigger and better buzzes
Message:
Yeah!

I know what Danny means about forgetting the feeling. I think it's true, to some extent, and I understand why people still in the cult think that we have just forgotten. I think some people deliberately or instinctively block out the memory, because they feel that they were manipulated by a certain group-buzz. I certainly remember the experience I had, but by its very nature, when you're in it, you believe you are following the Lord of the Universe, and are one of THE chosen people etc., so remembering it isn't the same as being in it, since I have broken that particular trance. I'm aware that by no means was my time with MJ all suffering. A lot of it felt quite good, to the dissociated part of myself I was living in. The problem was that the particular nature of the 'buzz' was UNINTEGRATED. This meant for me that the more I experienced the 'up, up, infinitely up' thing, the more my other parts got sicker and sicker and more abandoned. In retrospect I feel this kind of buzz was more of a trance than a really grounded experience.

I have to say, for myself, that the buzz has only gotten better as I have reintegrated my poor lost parts, and I still feel devotion for life including my body and feelings and cats and family and friends and all kinds of versions of the higher power. I still enjoy meditating on my breath, which has now been rescued from having been taken hostage by Lardy (as in 'He revealed this to me' --hell, I was doing breath meditation before Knowledge, a fact I tried to block out when I got programmed).

So I really want to invite all premies back into THAT experience of owning your whole self.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 18:30:30 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: To Danny:on remembering the feeling
Message:
Danny,

You seem to have been around here for some time, since you can remember Rob's posts here when he was still a premie. Rob made several very impressive posts earlier this year. You seem to have missed those, or at least you don't acknowledge them at all.

But what I really disagree with you about is the 'remembering the feeling' part. You say that the good old feeling we got with Knowledge cannot be remembered. Well, I know what you mean, but that goes with all feelings. They must be felt. You can't call them back up just by thinking back on earlier times when you were experiencing them.

What you say is an obvious truism, but you seem to be suggesting to Rob and ex-premies that we have lost our access to the feeling of Knowledge, meaning that familiar feeling we all knew at times in satsang, in meditation, in darshan. You seem to think of that feeling as being unique to Mr. Rawat and his premies.

This is where I beg to differ with you, and hope to point out to you that the feeling in question is actually universal among human beings. We all experience it to some extent or another. The tendency to limit it to our own narrow experience of it is a common and serious error. In fact, this error is the major false step of all cults. They attempt to limit the human access to this feeling to their own group, their own leader, their own methods. Big mistake, Danny.

I used to enjoy the feeling of satsang during my year as an aspirant, before I became a premie, and I enjoy that feeling still, after I am no longer a premie. It comes each time I bid it come, because it is a part of my nature. At times, it comes on strong, in unexpected ways.

I recently enjoyed an unexpected splurge into that old festival feeling. I went to a festival, no gurus, but about two dozen corvettes. I attended this show accidentally as I am no fan of cars. The show was held at our local Farmer's Market, where I went for some vegetables. I don't like cars and I am anxiously awaiting electric vehicles or some other alternative, but I nevertheless went over to look at the cars. Among them was a black 1965 model, in fact the top 1965 corvette in the world. The hood was up, exposing the immaculate engine. When I saw how clean that engine was I was moved almost to tears. I actually had to hold them back, because it would not do to be seen crying over a corvette. The love and care that had been showered on that automobile was truly inspiring and I felt a really good feeling, a familiar feeling, a feeling that should be courted and celebrated, and shared, and certainly never limited to any one religion, or one automobile, or one self-proclaimed guru.

I sometimes miss the old times. I sometimes miss my old friends. But I don't miss the master. Ever. He is not the master of that feeling. He lies when he says he is. And both Mr. Rawat and yourself do a dis-service to that feeling when you limit it in the way you do.

Actually, Danny, I found your post to be quite lacking in that feeling, even while it spoke directly about it. Mostly, your post was a sour expression of condescending sarcasm and insults. You reveal yourself to be a member of a certain very inconsequential cult who can only feel scorn for members who have left it. You don't give us any credit or respect. Not even the respect that people naturally deserve. It is not us who has lost a portion of our humanity. We have reclaimed it. You have not.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:13:15 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: If humanity is getting misty-eyed over an old car
Message:
then I guess I've lost mine.
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 03:08:04 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Hey shroom
Message:
Go chew a few amanita virosa caps, will ya?
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 03:35:40 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: I prefer Psylosobe Cubensis, actually. Mm-Mm! (nt)
Message:
mmmm
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 03:57:48 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Oh really , which strain?
Message:
Stropharia, Tasmanian or the new all-powerful Azurescens?
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 06:44:06 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: I have a friend who'll buy one ounce of each
Message:
if you can get 'em! I heard it's still legal to send the spores through the mail.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:50:39 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: And why would you need mm's when u have k? (nt)
Message:
q
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 13:57:27 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: No problem
Message:
Just give me your name and address and I'll have someone contact you.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:37:40 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: The problem is Danny
Message:
That I'm not writing for your personal entertainment. As Jim put it above, these particular posts of mine are simply information sharing, aimed mostly at people like Jean-Michel and whomever else is collating this stuff, for the benefit of those who wish to know what lies beneath the surface of the rawat empire.

Sure, maybe some of it is irrelevant, insignificant even, but, oh well, eh?

If it serves as a springboard for your own drole creative efforts, well good for you. I'm not in a creative writing contest with you, you may take center stage if you wish. Especially with phrases like 'global-scale child abuse' - that's a real crowd pleaser. Not quite Pullitzer material yet, but keep working on it.

I have written quite a few other posts which were not just information-driven, covering a range of topics from Rhadasoami to the odd phenomenon of Elan Vital as a Church, but obviously failed to capture your imagination with those as much as I did with the BestWay one. How curious.

So now we know you can write with flair and ingenuity, are we to be blessed with your essays on anything more pertinent and challenging than your opinion of me?

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 06:51:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: And what's YOUR point?
Message:
Forget about the dulling effect you think these dry, possibly interesting, possibly not, posts are having on poor Rob's personality. I know you're worried for him but just forget about that for a sec.

Answer me this, will you:

Are you in any way uneasy about all the strands of Maharaji's financial web, small and large, becoming known?

Yes or no?

You know, maybe Rob's barking up the odd wrong tree. But maybe not. What's it to you? See, my thought is that any premie would necessarily be a little skittish about the Hamster's interests getting exposed. Don't you feel that way?

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 04:50:51 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: .
To: Everyone
Subject: NOW I know where I went wrong
Message:
From ELK:


The Boston Event

The Boston program was really wonderful for me in so many ways. I was able to be there the day before the event, to help out and to witness the love and care being given by so many to transform the Copley Theatre into a suitable environment for Maharaji and his students to come together.

Somewhere in the middle of that magical day, I was struck with a wave of gratitude - as I invariably am whenever I have an opportunity to be at a program with Maharaji. What a gift to be able to participate in whatever way I can in what Maharaji is doing on this planet! Like everything else that has to do with Knowledge, it brings such joy to my heart. The word fortunate seems inadequate to describe how I felt to be there in the world of Knowledge, the world that the master makes possible. Blessed is more like it.

And then, to be able to listen to Maharaji speak twice the next day and have a chance to experience first-hand the incredibly simple, beautiful, clear Knowledge session video. I felt like he was showering me with such sweet gifts.

My oldest son was part of the set-up crew, and after the program was over, I had a chance to help them out with the dismantling process. I never realized before how many little parts go into the physical set-up for a program - folding tables and chairs, table covers and skirts, curtains and drapery, water coolers, etc. As I spent the next few hours removing table covers and skirts and folding them, and folding and moving chairs, the feeling I got was pure joy.

Such is the world of Knowledge.

Carole Jone
Ithaca, NY, USA

And to think I used to just bail out quick and hit the street vendors for a hotdog 'n Coke when all along, the bliss was there to be had in folding up chairs and table clothes. Damn.

Wow, and that incredible Knowledge session video! Sounds like you really got the whole pinada on that one Carole.

But seriously, is it me, or are premies getting more and more carried away with their own hype these days? Take Carole here, for example. What really happened? She turns up at this old Boston theater where they are turning it into 'a suitable environment for maharaji'. Meaning what? He's just a plain old teacher right? He's not God, is he? He's not the Lord of the Universe, is he? Those were just OUR projections, right? Sheesh, just hoover the place a bit and scrape the gum of the chair & he'll be fine.

But no, Carole felt 'blessed' to be there, with the other unpaid dweebs who actually fawned for the privelege of cleaning the place up (much to the amusement of the theater staff, I'm sure - now I bet THEY felt 'blessed'!). So that's the 'world of Knowledge' is it? Paper towels and Lysol.

But wait! There's more! Having given the place a much needed spring clean, without pay, our happy flock actually gets to listen to his Lardship speak. Not once, mind, but twice. Glory be! How selfless of his haughtiness to spare TWO WHOLE HOURS out of his day to talk about...about...hmmm, can't quite put my finger on it, but I just know it was beautiful! THAT feeling, THAT joy, THAT, um, and you just KNOW he was looking only at you, Carole, don't you?

The video. Yes, the 'simple, beautiful, clear Knowledge session video'. The video of the Knowledge which cannot be obtained from a book. The video of Him sticking His Divine fingers in his face, up close and VERY personal. Gee how I wish I'd been there. Not watching the video, though, but back in his Green Room watching him sip cognac while Monica did her own very special 'pranam', sharing a joke in Hindi with Raja Ji, you know, the one about the flat head & the six-pack......

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 05:00:08 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: Boink
Message:
Well that post arrived empty. Darn FBI packet sniffers. Supposedly it'll turn up later. Well I ain't redoing it!
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 00:24:07 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: One idea of how people learn and hence quit!
Message:
Hi All,

I've been reading a guy called Jack Mezirow - Transformative Dimensions of Adult Learning - pretty heavy stuff all in all - I don't recommend it unless you want a real challenging think.

Anyway he suggests that learning begins to take place once a person's ideas are shown to be incongruent with the world they experience. Then the person goes on a 'journey' of questioning, talking, socialising and creating new workable ideas that better match the world they are now open to experiencing.

I reckon that this is what happens when a 'premie' finds that their ideas of M et al are incongruent with what is actually happening with M et al and the larger world. The process of noticing the incongruence leads to two basic approaches. One approach is to ignore the conflicting data and continue as before. The other is to seek more data, talk to other people (Like what happens here), research and develop a larger view of the world - this process is difficult and often quite painful - it can cause social ructions as well as emotional ones.

His ideas are based on research of older age parents returning to tertiary study after raising a family. These parents were presented with a great range of ideas, experiences and world views, which they had never previously considered, that caused them to need to change their ideas of themselves and their world. Some did and kept studying - with all the attendant changes and dilemmas they had to face. Some didn't and returned to their old lives.

This leads me to the view that the 'premie to ex-premie' process is one of learning. Learning is voluntary. The voluntary nature doesn't begin until the 'premie' begins to notice that their world view (which includes the myths etc about M et al) doesn't accord with what they are experiencing. Now as to how this incongruence occurs - well. There is a strong natural tendency to maintain the status quo - which causes the overlooking, forgiving, missing, deleting, ignoring or data that is unpleasant - what is unpleasant is what will cause me to change. So this forum is quite unpleasant and hence avoidable.

From my own example - I came to this forum as an ex. But when all is said and done I still harboured a few nice ideas about K and M et al. While listening to many of you I had to confront even those cherished ideas. e.g. 'The meditation is good' - confronted with - many meditations are good, as is relaxation methods, as is self-hypnosis, as are drugs, the meditation is the same as many other peoples etc. So many of those old ideas have dropped away as well. So I can meditate if I want (for relation purposes) but I can't hold the idea that the meditation is 'special, unique, supernatural, spiritual' etc.

Anyway - a long dithyramble about the nature of learning. All change requires learning. How to learn 'better' or more effectively or less painfully - Ahh! That is the question.

Cheers

Peter Howie

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 02:37:46 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: One idea of how people learn and hence quit!
Message:
Hi Peter,

Great to read your post, as always! Who'd have thought adult-ed and Jack Mezirow could fit in at FV? ;-) My favourite adult-ed/lifelong-learning authors are John Dewey and David A. Kolb. Kolb's 'Experiential Learning' is an inspiring book, and well worth looking into if you haven't yet. Try to find one in a library and check it out. The websites on him do not do his ideas justice, IMO.

Anna

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 04:37:44 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: One idea of how people learn and hence quit!
Message:
Yeah I got a copy from Amazon Books. Great stuff and I'm on my second read. He was a light read I thought compared to Jack Mezirow.

Cheers

Peter

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 12:42:06 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Re: Kolb and Mezirow (ot)
Message:
You mean Kolb was a light read compared to Mezirow? In what way? Or, which book? Maybe I need to review some of my notes! ;-) Do they have a paperback version of Kolb's EL now? It's expensive.

Stonor

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 13:16:00 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor21@hotmail.com
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: Kolb and Mezirow hmmmm ....(ot)
Message:
Second read, hmmm? I'm jealous. I think I'll try to make a photocopy of the copy at the library soon! If you have a minute, I'd love to hear your comments. I gave you my email address in case you'd rather email me. It could also be interesting to discuss it at recentexes@yahoo.com. It's not as hectic as here, and there's interesting company!
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:29:42 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: One idea of how people learn and hence quit!
Message:
I loved your post.

I especially related to the part at the end where you said you came to the page as an ex-premie, and it still helped deprogram you. Me too. The stuff about Radhasoami absolutely blew my socks off, I must say. Also, I had felt badly treated by MJ, and this was a good enough reason to leave, but it has really helped to know that he has badly treated a lot of other people, so that any part of my subconscious that still thought I had blown it out of proportion was alleviated.

Thanks for your thoughts.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:49:06 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: One idea of how people learn and hence quit!
Message:
Yeah, nice post Peter.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 22:35:22 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To Joe-Off Topic-Lieberman
Message:
Do you know anything about this guy Lieberman who was selected by Gore to run as VP? How'd he vote in Congress, stance on civil rights, environment, etc?
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 22:45:29 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: My Opinion......
Message:
Lieberman is a liberal on social issues, (pro-choice, pro-affirmative action, pro-gay rights, but moderate on economic and foreign policy issues. In 1988 he ran for the senate in Connecticut against Lowell Weicker, a very liberal Republican, who became an Independent. Lieberman ran as a Democrat, but had significant support from the right.

He has strong labor ties, which should help Gore fend off Nader stealing labor votes. He tends to support military spending, partly because of all the military contractors in Connecticut, and their labor unions. But he is adamantly opposed to star wars, so he and Gore disagree on that one.

He is notorious for coming out lambasting Clinton on the Senate floor for his immoral behavior in the Lewinsky thing, and related lying to the country, but he voted against impeachment, as did all the other Democrats. He was criticized by some in the party for doing that, but I think it's a reason Gore picked him, to help distance him from 'Clinton-fatigue'.

Surprisingly, I've heard Lieberman and Clinton are good friends. When Clinton was at Yale, he worked in Lieberman's first campaign for the Conn. Legislature in 1970. In 1992, Lieberman was the first senator from the Northeast to endorse Clinton in the primaries.

As everyone knows, Lieberman is an Orthodox Jew, I think the first Jew to be nominated for President or Vice-President.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 22:57:27 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks, Joe...
Message:
I'd decided to vote for Nader until I saw Bush's speech at the Republican Convention and nearly puked all over my TV. Then I considered voting for Gore again, but now I'm thinking 'the hell with it' because Lieberman seems to make the Gore ticket more conservative.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 22:54:03 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Environment
Message:
I just checked with the League of Conservations Voters, and they have given him a 100% rating on environmental issues. Lieberman is one of the authors of the Clean Air Act of 1991.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 23:01:50 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: oh...
Message:
well, shit, now I really don't know what to think. Maybe it'll be Gore, after all. Bush really is ugly enough to vote for anyone who'll keep him out of office.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 23:09:28 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: Gore/Lieberman
Message:
I think the election is sort of slipping away from Gore. He's going to have to move quickly to shore up his support with labor, women, liberals, etc. He should be doing better among those groups than he is. He seems to get no credit at all for the best economy in history. He seems to get no credit from Clinton's high approval ratings, but seems to inherit all the baggage.

I'm going to vote for Nader unless it gets close in California. Last poll I saw, Gore is ahead by 7, and I think Bush is making a tour her this week before he writes the state off, just like his dad and Dole did.

Gore and Bush really are different in a number of ways. On the environment, at least with Gore it won't get worse. Under Bush it will.

At least 3 supreme court justices are going to retire in the next 4 years and that could change a lot on things like choice, separation of church and state, civil rights, etc. Bush as said publicly he likes Thomas and Scalia. Wow. So, you can imagine who he would nominate.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 23:15:30 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Bush on the environment .. consider this
Message:
Just a few things to consider:

Texas has the most pollution from manufacturing plants in the country

Texas has the most pollution from industrial plants in the coutnry

Texas has the most industrial plants operating in violation of the clean air act.

Houston has replace LA as the city with the most polluted air in the country.

Bush as done zip to deal with this problem except to institute a 'voluntary' pollution compliance program for industry. He actually vetoed the legislation until it was changed from mandatory to voluntary.

The second worst pollution state in Lousiana. Why, because it also if covered with pollution oil refineries.

What can we expect from Bush and Cheney, to executives from the oil industry? Not much, except rhetoric.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 23:25:34 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Also, consider this....
Message:
If Bush wins, and the Republicans retain control of the House and Senate, it will be the first time since the 1920s that the Republicans have controlled both branches. God only knows what havoc would be wrought in that case. It's a bit frightening to me.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 00:39:48 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: yeah, that's scary...
Message:
and Bush is scary all on his own. This guy is like a schoolyard punk.

Refresh my memory on the Electoral College thing: If Gore is clearly winning in California, then our votes for Nader have no effect?

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 04:19:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: yeah, that's scary...
Message:
Well, the votes for Nader might have an 'effect' of maybe moving Gore to the left, but that didn't seem to have much effect on Clinton.

I'm sure you know this, but in the electoral college it's winner take all. Whoever gets the most votes in a state gets all the electoral votes. California has 54, by far the most. If it's really close between Gore and Bush in California, people voting for Nader instead of Gore, could throw the state, and the 54 votes to Bush. And presumably presumably most of those who vote for Nader would otherwise vote for Gore.

In 1996, Dole was toast early on, and Clinton won the state by 13 points. So, there wasn't much of a threat that Dole could ever carry the state. So, I felt confident in voting for Nader that year.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 02:40:21 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: P-man and Joe
Subject: LCV profiles of Gore and Bush
Message:
FYI

League of Conservation Voter's 2000 Presidential Profiles

  Al Gore

  George W. Bush

LCV endorses Al Gore


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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 03:11:19 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: P-man and Joe
Subject: Sierra Club
Message:
The Sierra Club endorses Gore. They also want Nader included in the debates.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:21:58 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: G
Subject: thanks G (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 20:09:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To Carol (re inactive thread)
Message:
Carol,

That post about 'Third Rock from the Sun' was funny. Thanks for the laughs.

You also wrote:

Jim, I am a person who has a problem with confrontation and conflict. Does that mean that I should avoid it at all costs? No. My little assertive jabs at you when I have disagreed and the fact that I was not harmed by any responses any one make back to me, have served to make me a more confident and courageous person. I am grateful to have had your 'aquaintance' because you challenge me to grow by you being so adamantly yourself and not afraid at all of conflict!

I actually felt a feeling of physical tightness and anxiety when I posted my response to your 'Apples and Oranges' post to me. Basically, fear, for no good reason except that it is my conditioning from past experience: grooves in the record. Why?
Because I was daring to go outside my normal conflict-avoiding self to tell you basically that you were closeminded in your judgment of the 'fantasy' or false world of SCA in which gentility was easy (it's not easy, anywhere that people gather!)I don't think I missed your point, but yes, I added another one.

I have to ask: have you ever considered that that 'physical tightness and anxiety' might just be a function of your trying to protect soem pretty indefensible ideas? I know I used to feel that way a lot if I anticipated some tough anti-m criticism back in the day.

What do you think?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 08:37:42 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: To Carol (re inactive thread)
Message:
Thanks for the acknowledgement of my post. I thought that show was hilarious and timely...and I seldom have seen it before!

I'm pretty dang sure that my chest sensation was pure and simple conditioned fear, however unfounded the physical need for fight or flight! I challege you to meet me on a Medieval fighting field one day (following rules of war for gentility SCA style) and see who fights or flies!

It is not what you conveniently surmised: that I was defending ideas that you find implausible. That's funny!

Carol

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