Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 01:32:40 (GMT)
From: Aug 07, 2000 To: Aug 16, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


Joe -:- The Psychology of Following a Master. I can relate -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 18:51:01 (GMT)
__ Kjarne -:- The Psychology of Following a Master. I can relate -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 08:04:34 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- The Psychology of Following a Master. I can relate -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:46:38 (GMT)
__ Lurkex -:- Wow! Bingo -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 02:25:53 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Wow! Bingo -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 14:51:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lurkex -:- Wow! Bingo -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:47:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Wow! Bingo -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 20:11:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lurkex -:- Wow! Bingo -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 02:48:37 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Speaking as resident psychologist... -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 23:46:52 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Speaking as resident psychologist... -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 14:58:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Speaking as resident psychologist... -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 21:19:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Nigel, a Question re Baptists -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:43:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Nigel, a Question re Baptists -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:45:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- Nigel, a Question re Baptists -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 21:23:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Yikes! Get my sister out of there quick!! -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 21:46:33 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Speaking as resident psychologist... -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:17:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Speaking as resident psychologist... -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:20:51 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- The Psychology of Following a Master. I can relate -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 19:06:17 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- The Psychology of Following a Master. I can relate -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 19:21:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Here's the Link -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 07:35:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Where does this guy find all this stuff, -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 19:39:06 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Sorry, the above printed twice,stop halfway..... -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 18:58:58 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- shp thinks its attainable.....nt -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:55:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- oh boy this thread... -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 20:30:27 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- 10% off on Visions sales with your SmartCard!! -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:28:35 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- defenitly an Identity card to keep track of -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 18:03:21 (GMT)

buzz -:- satsanghi support group -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:05:40 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Intentional pun, there, buzz? -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:22:13 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- UNBELIEVABLE: charnamrit distributed in 99 -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:40:00 (GMT)
__ Kjarne -:- UNBELIEVABLE: charnamrit / In your dreams!!!! -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 07:45:24 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- You don't understand much of what you read!!! -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 08:22:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kjarne -:- You don't understand much of what you read!!! -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 08:28:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Kjarne you've been there? Why don't you tell us -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:31:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ A Real X -:- Kjarne you've been there? Why don't you tell us -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:06:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Bullshit, Real X -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 18:27:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ The X Men -:- Bullshit, Jim,you are obsessive compulsive! -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 00:12:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- What are you doing here??? -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 14:43:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Bullshit, Jim,you are obsessive compulsive! -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 01:18:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Uncanny X men -:- Bullshit, Jim,you are obsessive compulsive! -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 08:41:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Kjarne -:- Kjarne you've been there? Why don't you tell us -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:06:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- And what about darshan in Amaroo, Japan, Mauritius -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:25:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kjarne -:- And what about darshan in Amaroo, Japan, Mauritius -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:31:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Darshan? Please, tell me what you feel!!!!! -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:45:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- We're getting somewhere now !!! -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:34:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Kjarne -:- Kjarne you've been there? Why don't you tell us -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:57:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Did you bow down? -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 11:34:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- You haven't been invited, that's all!!! -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:32:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kjarne -:- I was invited!!!I -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 11:37:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- tradition tradition -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:24:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Me too!!! All I like is people to be honest -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 13:39:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kjarne -:- Hate has never been a good fruit!!!. -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 14:11:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- This is no joke, Kjarne, just VERY stupid -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:04:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kjarne -:- I am not stupid, Jim -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:14:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, Kjarne, it's not better. It's STUPIDER! -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 18:03:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kjarne -:- Jim, You must be a lawyer!!!! -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 01:10:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Maybe not, but you're unbelievably naive, -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 03:40:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- It never was a joke to me either -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:33:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kjarne -:- I am really touched! -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 11:49:59 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Here's a bad translation -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:13:36 (GMT)
__ __ Kjarne -:- Here's a bad translation/ Translate again -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 08:25:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Here's another great translation -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:08:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Kjarne -:- If you take away the last line it will be fine. -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 11:55:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Great, Dave, but about that last line...(nt) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:45:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I can read between the lines (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:09:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Indian darshan lines -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:42:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Their culture must accept this type of thing -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 08:36:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- You've never been there my friend! lame denial -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:37:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- I saw a video showing darshan recently -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 11:19:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I own it -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:02:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re:I own it -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:48:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Excellent idea -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:04:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I hate to mention it, but watch out for the -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:52:22 (GMT)
__ __ Anon -:- Here's a really bad translation -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:56:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Thanks - I do my best (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:11:38 (GMT)
__ Way -:- UNBELIEVABLE: charnamrit distributed in 99 -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 22:13:08 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Don't you like Sir Dave's translation? -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 07:31:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Don't you like Sir Dave's translation? -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 14:17:53 (GMT)
__ G -:- bolei shri satgurudev -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:56:42 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Another 'ki jai' to another guru -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 18:55:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- dammit you guys -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 04:06:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- a different sai baba -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 12:15:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- dammit is right ! -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 04:36:46 (GMT)

Jim -:- Anyone want to hook-up in TO, Mtl or maybe Ottawa? -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:24:26 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- No, but how about Malibu or Amaroo? -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:42:59 (GMT)

AJW -:- Help Sir Dave. -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 14:30:03 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Here it is -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:02:40 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Thanks Sir Dave (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 12:54:43 (GMT)

Salam -:- Who are those people? -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 13:11:35 (GMT)
__ G -:- Who are those people? -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:38:15 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Hellbronn is the correct spelling. -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:05:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- I wonder -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 19:36:22 (GMT)
__ afriend -:- Is that important? -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:33:13 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- English lesson -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:29:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- G: would you say the following senario will -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:58:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ A little Aussie battler -:- G: would you say the following senario will -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 00:34:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- not sure -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 18:21:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- not sure -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 18:58:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- EV Australia -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 19:15:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- EV Australia -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 20:30:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Clarke and Kann, EV Australia -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 22:26:53 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Are you the same piss artists that told me -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:12:20 (GMT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Is that important? -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:58:49 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Yes, but who are YOU? (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:41:15 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Ivory's Rock conference center's done some good! -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 13:27:22 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- glad do not have to find the link. -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 13:44:52 (GMT)

Elaine -:- Thanks, Bobby ----nt -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 12:55:37 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Thanks, Bobby - -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:29:55 (GMT)

JTF -:- That Experience: Hashish or Horse Shit -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 10:35:58 (GMT)
__ G -:- Placebos -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 23:50:02 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- What sort of substance, come on, do not be shy..nt -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:27:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- I do not recall -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:37:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- The horseshit effect? -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 22:34:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- rotten vegetables -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 23:53:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Throwing out rotten vegetables -:- Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 13:30:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Wiplashed horse shit with -:- rotten vegetables milk shake, definitly gives you -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 00:48:57 (GMT)
__ Michael -:- That Experience -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 13:51:23 (GMT)

Kjarne -:- WHY CAN`T YOU GUYS EXEPT -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 09:37:07 (GMT)
__ Anon -:- WHY CAN`T YOU GUYS SPELL?? -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 01:00:53 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- because no one is teaching them how to!! (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 01:06:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- Yeah, and who cares about 'that' education whe(nt) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:09:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yeah, sure could be a factor! Hi SB! (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 22:01:35 (GMT)
__ Tami -:- Thank yu Kjarne. -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:40:32 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- In a word, yes -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 15:54:56 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- WHY CAN`T YOU GUYS EXEPT -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 11:17:43 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- EXCEPTions require ACCEPTance, at times. (ot) -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:29:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- EXCEPTions require ACCEPTance, at times. (ot) -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 21:55:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Let me add to that. (ot) -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 23:25:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Let me add to that again. (ot) -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 23:39:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- schwa, HTML links -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:12:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- OK, that didn't post correctly -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:24:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- See Forum Help for HTML help -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:38:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- oops, I meant 'Here are some ...' (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 22:06:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Schoolmarm Stonor -:- Now yer really yankin' my yardstick, Sonny! (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 01:03:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Yes Ms. Stonor (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 01:11:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes Mr. G (ot) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 11:44:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Mr. G and Salam (ot) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 12:34:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- mixed up? (ot) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:28:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Aaaaah, yer jist teesin mi! (ot) -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 23:06:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- EXCEPTions require ACCEPTance, at times. (ot) -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 20:39:57 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Yes (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 10:26:27 (GMT)
__ TD -:- Hey, Mickey - we've a winner! Answered just ... -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 10:16:07 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- WHY CAN`T YOU GUYS EXEPT -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 09:48:01 (GMT)
__ __ EddyTheTurtzle -:- The Gift comes from Him -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 11:07:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- The Gift comes from Him -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 13:13:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Cult Realisation -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 11:15:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ EddyTheTurtle -:- Yeah True -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 12:28:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Wow, Eddy, that's a really powerful story! -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:00:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ EddyTheTurtle -:- Holly Bass? -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:30:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ TeddyTheTurtle -:- Cult Realisation -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 12:16:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Not yet Teddy (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 14:22:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ TeddyTheTurtle -:- Not yet Teddy (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 14:54:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ninja Turtle -:- heeeeeeeyaaaaaaa..! -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 13:48:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ EddyTheTurtle -:- heeeeeeeyaaaaaaa..! -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 14:56:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ I am bound to me lard -:- gum ji li, he is sooo beautifull. -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 15:23:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Salam, you've got a 'name', use it (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:02:11 (GMT)

News Alert -:- Steve Hassan on Discovery Channel Tmrw Nite -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 04:34:36 (GMT)
__ JTF -:- 'Thank YOU, Father'...very familiar (NT) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:42:49 (GMT)

G -:- Malibu land purchases -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 04:21:51 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Malibu land purchases -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 09:56:19 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Silly me -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:45:02 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Peace hasn't gone that far until now -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 10:20:36 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- G, can you tell.....? -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 04:41:31 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- And also... -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:37:42 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- G, can you tell.....? -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 04:59:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- LA real estate records -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 05:34:32 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- so what's it for? -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 04:32:58 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- so what's it for? -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 05:06:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene submerged -:- Added up wrong -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 06:03:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- total value -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 22:13:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- assessed is lower -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 22:33:36 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 18:51:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Psychology of Following a Master. I can relate
Message:
Following is an excerpt from a report written by Daniel Shaw, a psychologist who has studied perfectionism and following a guru or master. His basic theory is that at least some people who get involved with following a leader who claims to have acheived perfection, is a kind of pathological perfectionism, attempting to devote and attain perfection which is impossible, self-defeating and a miserable experience. His theory is that this tendency is the result of distant, unresponsive, controllling parental behavior when these people were children.

He also says, that these people have as their greatest fear the removal of the preceived love of the master, and hence cling even more strongly to the 'master' almost completely out of fear, and not because they are enjoying the experience of doing so.

I'm not saying this applies 100% to me, but I can relate to this quite a lot. I think many of us who lived in the ashrams, as well as others, had these tendencies, and I also believed I remained a premie for years despite being quite unhappy, because I feared losing whatever 'love' I believed Maharaji had for me.

Can anyone else seem themselves in their Maharaji-cult years in this?

Anyhow, here is what Shaw says in applicable part:

Idolatry and pathological perfectionism can be readily observed in some spiritual paths led by self-proclaimed 'fully enlightened,' or 'perfected' masters, who are worshiped within their communities as perfect, living embodiments of God. This premise, that the master and God are one, sets a standard within the group for spiritual perfection which only the master has achieved. Any and all efforts of the followers must be judged by the standard the master sets. Now if the master happens to be crazy, this leaves things wide open for totalitarianism and all its horrors, which we are all too familiar with in this century, from Hitler to Jones, Koresh, Asahara, ad nauseam. It is useful to bear in mind that the master-slave relationship is a close relative, and that the line between disciple and slave may easily be blurred.

While many participate in master-oriented groups for a wide variety of reasons, striving toward the goal of enlightenment through attachment to a perfected master can be particularly alluring to those seeking a miraculous antidote to intolerable feelings of worthlessness. With these people, when the shame-driven, compensatory need for redemption and salvation (and with it, the hope for relief from suffering) takes the form of an obsessive quest for perfection, it is possible to observe in their attitudes and behavior the workings of an internal masochistic slave, striving desperately to meet insatiable demands for perfection from a sadistic internal master. For them, to be imperfect means to be shamefully bad and defective. Unfortunately, striving for perfection as an attempt to ward off shame only perpetuates, rather than relieves, suffering, for perfection can never be attained.

People with this organizing theme who have gurus, either religious or secular ones, have often found in the guru's system the perfect hook to hang all this on. These gurus demand obedience, worship and submission, which are all elements of the 'purification' process required in order to be deemed worthy of serving the master. Those who get caught up in efforts to meet these demands will find any tendency toward pathological perfectionism greatly exacerbated. Such gurus hold themselves out as an example of a person who has attained perfection, which the follower is led to believe he may eventually expect to attain as well, provided he exhibits sufficient effort and devotion. However, since absolute perfection is in fact humanly impossible to attain, there is no amount of devotion or effort that can ever be sufficient to attain what the master is said to have. The disciple, therefore, always comes up short in this situation, no matter how hard he tries, because the game is rigged. The master dangles the carrot of perfection, but gives only the painful blows of the stick of greater effort, ad infinitum.

[Common in the background of people who follow masters with this kind of perfectionism] is a history are highly unstable, narcissistic parents, who were both extremely controlling and shaming, as well as neglectful and often grossly unattuned to the emotional needs of their children. Most individuals have great difficulties in thinking about and feeling connected to the traumatic emotional lives they led as children, each almost completely omitting associations to their parents and childhood experiences. Instead, they usually see their suffering and their bad luck as all their own fault, certainly not the fault of the master or guru.

Some of our analysands approach spiritual leaders seeking a safe haven and a new beginning (Balint, 1932), a chance to surrender (Ghent, 1990; Benjamin; Maroda, 1999) their rigidly defended, wounded selves to a transforming, opening, healing other (Bollas, 1987). These hopes, when laid at the wrong feet, are too often met with a confusion of tongues (Ferenzci, 1933), a bait and switch maneuver, where instead of finding the longed for facilitation of a safe and transforming surrender, one is met instead with ever-increasing demands for total submission. Sadistic domination is all too easily confused with benign love, of a parent, or an enlightened master, or an analyst, especially when the sadistic domination and the love are both present, whether simultaneously or in alternation.

The informed analyst is in a position to help sort out this confusion. Whether analysands have become enslaved to a private or public philosophy geared towards attaining perfection, or seduced by a guru, or seduced into the servitude of living as a false self in accommodation to narcissistic parents (Winnicott, 1952; Miller, 1981), we as analysts can seek to help patients discover and distinguish what they truly value and desire from what they believe they must submit to and comply with out of fear of punishment.

What punishment is the most dreadful of all? I believe it is the withdrawal of love and human connectedness. Such withdrawal is an immensely powerful weapon in the hands of those who are in a position to dominate and control others. When this withdrawal has been traumatic early in life, as it was for both Ted and Frederick, who stood by helplessly as they saw their families torn apart by divorce, the search for love that will never be withdrawn, for perfect, miraculous love, becomes desperate. For many, and I stress that I am not suggesting for all, the quest for enlightenment and perfection is accompanied by an underlying hopelessness about knowing human love that is good enough, good enough to dispel the curse of aloneness. It expresses a wish to magically avoid or escape agonizing disappointments in people by loving only a person or an ideal that is perceived as perfect, someone or something that seems to offer a guarantee of constant, unconditional love. Such guarantees too often come at the price of endless longing, self-punishment and submission. We can help our patients, rather than to sacrifice themselves at the altar of unattainable perfection, to pursue love, transformation and wisdom that are good enough, and therefore humanly attainable.

Idolatry and pathological perfectionism can be readily observed in some spiritual paths led by self-proclaimed 'fully enlightened,' or 'perfected' masters, who are worshiped within their communities as perfect, living embodiments of God. This premise, that the master and God are one, sets a standard within the group for spiritual perfection which only the master has achieved. Any and all efforts of the followers must be judged by the standard the master sets. Now if the master happens to be crazy, this leaves things wide open for totalitarianism and all its horrors, which we are all too familiar with in this century, from Hitler to Jones, Koresh, Asahara, ad nauseam. It is useful to bear in mind that the master-slave relationship is a close relative, and that the line between disciple and slave may easily be blurred.

While many participate in master-oriented groups for a wide variety of reasons, striving toward the goal of enlightenment through attachment to a perfected master can be particularly alluring to those seeking a miraculous antidote to intolerable feelings of worthlessness. With these people, when the shame-driven, compensatory need for redemption and salvation (and with it, the hope for relief from suffering) takes the form of an obsessive quest for perfection, it is possible to observe in their attitudes and behavior the workings of an internal masochistic slave, striving desperately to meet insatiable demands for perfection from a sadistic internal master. For them, to be imperfect means to be shamefully bad and defective. Unfortunately, striving for perfection as an attempt to ward off shame only perpetuates, rather than relieves, suffering, for perfection can never be attained.

People with this organizing theme who have gurus, either religious or secular ones, have often found in the guru's system the perfect hook to hang all this on. These gurus demand obedience, worship and submission, which are all elements of the 'purification' process required in order to be deemed worthy of serving the master. Those who get caught up in efforts to meet these demands will find any tendency toward pathological perfectionism greatly exacerbated. Such gurus hold themselves out as an example of a person who has attained perfection, which the follower is led to believe he may eventually expect to attain as well, provided he exhibits sufficient effort and devotion. However, since absolute perfection is in fact humanly impossible to attain, there is no amount of devotion or effort that can ever be sufficient to attain what the master is said to have. The disciple, therefore, always comes up short in this situation, no matter how hard he tries, because the game is rigged. The master dangles the carrot of perfection, but gives only the painful blows of the stick of greater effort, ad infinitum.

[Common in the background of people who follow masters with this kind of perfectionism] is a history are highly unstable, narcissistic parents, who were both extremely controlling and shaming, as well as neglectful and often grossly unattuned to the emotional needs of their children. Most individuals have great difficulties in thinking about and feeling connected to the traumatic emotional lives they led as children, each almost completely omitting associations to their parents and childhood experiences. Instead, they usually see their suffering and their bad luck as all their own fault, certainly not the fault of the master or guru.

Some of our analysands approach spiritual leaders seeking a safe haven and a new beginning (Balint, 1932), a chance to surrender (Ghent, 1990; Benjamin; Maroda, 1999) their rigidly defended, wounded selves to a transforming, opening, healing other (Bollas, 1987). These hopes, when laid at the wrong feet, are too often met with a confusion of tongues (Ferenzci, 1933), a bait and switch maneuver, where instead of finding the longed for facilitation of a safe and transforming surrender, one is met instead with ever-increasing demands for total submission. Sadistic domination is all too easily confused with benign love, of a parent, or an enlightened master, or an analyst, especially when the sadistic domination and the love are both present, whether simultaneously or in alternation.

The informed analyst is in a position to help sort out this confusion. Whether analysands have become enslaved to a private or public philosophy geared towards attaining perfection, or seduced by a guru, or seduced into the servitude of living as a false self in accommodation to narcissistic parents (Winnicott, 1952; Miller, 1981), we as analysts can seek to help patients discover and distinguish what they truly value and desire from what they believe they must submit to and comply with out of fear of punishment.

What punishment is the most dreadful of all? I believe it is the withdrawal of love and human connectedness. Such withdrawal is an immensely powerful weapon in the hands of those who are in a position to dominate and control others. When this withdrawal has been traumatic early in life, as it was for both Ted and Frederick, who stood by helplessly as they saw their families torn apart by divorce, the search for love that will never be withdrawn, for perfect, miraculous love, becomes desperate. For many, and I stress that I am not suggesting for all, the quest for enlightenment and perfection is accompanied by an underlying hopelessness about knowing human love that is good enough, good enough to dispel the curse of aloneness. It expresses a wish to magically avoid or escape agonizing disappointments in people by loving only a person or an ideal that is perceived as perfect, someone or something that seems to offer a guarantee of constant, unconditional love. Such guarantees too often come at the price of endless longing, self-punishment and submission. We can help our patients, rather than to sacrifice themselves at the altar of unattainable perfection, to pursue love, transformation and wisdom that are good enough, and therefore humanly attainable.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 08:04:34 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Psychology of Following a Master. I can relate
Message:
Maybe most of you can relate to this. I don`t think the curant premies do.

Maybe this is why you are ex`es and the premies are not!!

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:46:38 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: The Psychology of Following a Master. I can relate
Message:
I think the people who received knowledge in the 70s and early 80s, who seem to be the majority of the dwindling number of active PWKs, CAN relate to it. The PWKs I have spoken with, whom I knew as premies in the 70s and 80s, still basically believe Maharaji has divine powers. They don't say that directly, but they believe Maharaji is guiding their lives, knows what is best for them better than they do, and believe they have some kind of etherial connection to him. Don't kid yourself, the mumbo jumbo of the 70s is still very much alive in the Maharaji cult.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 02:25:53 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Wow! Bingo
Message:
Thanks for that post! I did think it was getting a bit repetitive towards the end, but told myself that i wasn't reading it properly ;).

Oh yes, i can relate incredibly closely: 'highly unstable, narcissistic parents, who were both extremely controlling and
shaming, as well as neglectful and often grossly unattuned to the emotional needs of their
children.' Just about sums up mumsy and dadsy, bless their hearts.

The reluctance to question or find anything wrong with the teacher or parent because that would leave you really alone is very real, I think. It was very hard for me to bite the hand that was feeding me the bogus charamrit of unavailable love. And as I was leaving Lardy I went into therapy and had an equally hard time realizing that my parents hadn't been all they were cracked up to be, as parents. Not to blame them, but to validate my own experience in childhood so I could get out of the loop of thinking everything was my fault. It was a big breakthrough for me to recognize and acknowledge just how wounded I was, and how I had relived that wound with M. And in many, many love relationships with unavailable partners who would control me by the threat of leaving. Those programs where M wouldn't show up because we 'didn't love him enough' were absolute chain-yankers for me.

I'm happy to report that I feel quite a lot better after 16 years, and my relationships seem to reflect this. However, I had to go down before I came up.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 14:51:45 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Wow! Bingo
Message:
Sorry Lurk, somehow the excerpt printed twice. So, if you stop reading halfway, you got the parts I thought were important.

I can also really relate about the breakthrough in therapy about parents and childhood. Although I first had to have a breakthrough about a therapist. I think what I did at first was turn the therapist into the 'master' and so I found myself trying to 'surrender' to the therapist instead of really dealing with what was going on with me. It took awhile to get through that, because that was the essential problem, I was carrying all the cult programming about perfection and surrender to perfection with me after I left.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:47:51 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Wow! Bingo
Message:
Yes! THe first therapist I went to, while still a premie, but on my way out, was a hypnotherapist in Miami. He was quite good, encouraged me to take my own power back from M, and I learned a lot. However, unknown to me, not long after this, he became a guru himself, giving guess which techniques! He is still active in L.A. as a sort of Radhasoami knock-off giving something called 'the Knowing.' I know all this because, in an amazing turn of events, my ex-step-nephew (!) got enmeshed with him and I had to intervene to get him out (he was a sexual predator too). Imagine my amazement when I realized that this 'guru' was my first therapist from long ago.

I think it's amazing that I attracted such a person as my first therapist and basically, my first teacher, after M, even though I didn't get the bad stuff. Just in the same way as I attracted so many men like M in my life (or at least, who FELT like M to me -- unavailable etc.). I was recently writing to someone who is just leaving M and going into therapy, saying that they should watch out, because after being spiritually betrayed (which is how the person was feeling) it's really easy to set up the same situation with other people in positions of helper or teacher. Not that they actually are going to betray you, but it is easy to set up an experience of betrayal if you have a lot of it unresolved.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 20:11:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Wow! Bingo
Message:
Wow, that must be weird that your therapist became a guru.

I think it's important that somebody leaving a cult find a therapist who knows something about cults. And there aren't that many, although there are more now, than when I was going to therapy in 1984. So, I hope your friend who is leaving the Maharaji cult can find somebody who has some experience with that.

The therapist I went to at first was a rather conventional psychiatrist, but I was trying to get his approval, I think, and I think I was waiting for him to tell me what to do. Then I began to resent him just the same way I did Maharaji. So, I had to break that off, and he really resisted trying to get me to stay in treatment. I felt abused, sort of, so I felt empowered ending the therapy. Later, he called me and said he had handled the therapy wrong, and later one of his colleagues did a 'peer review' interview with me about what happened. That was helpful for me, too, because I was able to explore how I was relating to this guy.

Then I found somebody really good, and all that began to change. This guy knew about what happens in a cult, and so he was able to see through things and get me to question a lot of the stuff in my head from the cult that I was still carrying around. The indoctrination is so deep and so internalized that it becomes automatic. That's why premies don't think they are programmed. It becomes such a part of your mindset. This psychiatrist helped me a lot. I felt like I got my feet back on the ground and the burden of trying to be the perfect premie got removed.

One of the things I was carrying around was a kind of fantasy that what I had experienced as a premie was 'real love.' That it was love that was 'higher' or better than other 'love.' This is bullshit but hard to let go of. The other thing was that I had very little self-esteem left, and I didn't trust my feelings, because as premies, we were indoctrinated to be suspect of 'feelings,' emotions, interpersonal love, etc.

He also had me try to express my anger, which was really repressed, and that released a lot. When it started flowing, it was amazing, and lots of other trapped feelings also came up. That's when I got really excited about life again. And began looking forward to the future again.

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 02:48:37 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Wow! Bingo
Message:
Yeah, 'real love!' What a joke!

Nothing like getting the anger moving to give you back your life urge. A much better method than sniping and arguing your way into bitter twistedness ain't it?

This is all very interesting. I'm having a very interesting time on the other RE forum, too.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 23:46:52 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Speaking as resident psychologist...
Message:
(though more like anti-psychologist in many respects) I'd have to say I'd agree with about 70% of what this guy has written - though the piece was a bit long to study in depth right now.

Big reservation: I am always suspicious of anyone would cite DW Winnicott as any kind of authority on anything.

But I really can't endorse the idea that 'that this tendency is the result of distant, unresponsive, controllling parental behavior when these people were children' - at least in my case.

The assertion is so diametrically opposed to my own childhood experience that if it is true in some cases - which it might be - these certainly aren't necessary factors. My folks were great, and my mum still is.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 14:58:30 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Speaking as resident psychologist...
Message:
Nigel,

I don't think the theory is that controlling parents are essential. Because like yours, mine weren't. What mine were, especially my mother, were examples of people trying to be perfect themselves, in the case of my mother, a quest to have the perfect family and household, for which she felt responsible and dejected because she was failing. She was also quite critical about wanting us to be exemplary as well. But I wouldn't call her controlling.

The other thing for me, was that religion (the Catholic Church) was central to our lives. My mom was a convert, and hence was much more rigid and fearful about religion than my dad who was more of a 'cultural, social Catholic.' The religion has a strong element of needing to be purified, or sin, and the like. Although I basically rejected the religion before I even became a premie (over the church's failure to condemn the Vietnam War), it was still very much a part of me.

Anyhow, I found the description of actually being a premie, the strive for perfection and surrender to a distant, supposedly 'perfect' master, and the associated, but unrecognized, misery that caused, including the terrible fear of every leaving (reinforced by the fear Maharaji indoctrinated into us), very much part of my experience as a premie.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 21:19:40 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Speaking as resident psychologist...
Message:
Yeah, in spite of just a few things I was objecting to, I thought most of the analysis was spot-on. I would certainly agree that the powerful presence of a religious belief system in the family can be a major factor. True in my case too (Baptists), and one of the three factors I mentioned in my journeys post - along with a recent bereavement and the crucial age thing of typically being between 18 and 25 when you are most susceptible.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:43:57 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel, a Question re Baptists
Message:
In the US, Baptists are considered extremely conservative, at least the largest denomination of Baptists, the Southern Baptist Convention, but I have read that what they preach is actaully a perversion of what the Baptists are all about, which is individual belief and faith, without a rigid church doctring or hierarchy. How did your family become Baptists? I seem to recall that Baptists are indigenous to the UK, but I wondered if the US Baptists are similar.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:45:44 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Nigel, a Question re Baptists
Message:
Well I'm no expert, but my sister (who is still a Baptist) lives in Texas, and according to my mother who has visited a few times, the way Baptists do things over there, there is this fundamentalist, fire-and-brimstone, right-wing sort of agenda you just don't get in the UK.

As a kid, I couldn't see any differences between Baptists and Methodists, apart from the obvious one, ie. the belief in adult rather than infant Baptism. Very similar hymn-books, prayers and sermons. We certainly weren't fundamentalists or creationists - which the Texans appear to be - whether officially or coincidentally.

I think it is probably true the Southern Baptists have perverted the original message, but don't know enough about either doctrine to say for sure what the differences are.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 21:23:44 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel, a Question re Baptists
Message:
The Southern Baptists are quite different from the Baptists in the UK and the denomination known as the American Baptists. The Southern Baptists came into existence during the US Civil War; they were pro-slavery while what we now call the American Baptists were Abolitionists.
The Southern Baptists started floating towards Fundamentalism during the Scopes trial, and then took a decided turn to the right when the fundamentalist faction took over the Convention back in the late 1980's.
The Baptists churches were always Congregationalists in that the congregation decided all matters for the church, and they did not answer to a bishop or overseer. The Southern Baptists now excomunicate churches which disagree with them concerning the place of women in the church, the place of homosexual persons in the church, and in their literalist reading of the Bible.
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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 21:46:33 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Yikes! Get my sister out of there quick!!
Message:
Thanks Michael, like Joe I had been puzzled by the extreme differences in style between the two churches, and I guess that is because they ARE two churches. Never knew that.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:17:08 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Speaking as resident psychologist...
Message:
A lot of came as a result of enthusiasm of premies during the early hopeful 'knowledge can help us all' era.
We werent plucked from our hiding under a dark rock.
Whatever positives possible were squandered by the rawat family insanity.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:20:51 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Speaking as resident psychologist...
Message:
However, thanks for posting that Joe, It is chock full of great points. I think it was exactly like he says in many ways.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 19:06:17 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Psychology of Following a Master. I can relate
Message:
Can you post the reference for this extract Joe please

Salam

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 19:21:45 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: The Psychology of Following a Master. I can relate
Message:
You can find the whole thing on the DLM/EV Papers site. It's called 'The Dark Side of Enlightenment.' J-M's website is an incredible resource.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 07:35:23 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Here's the Link
Message:
The Dark Side of Enlightenment

Sadomasochistic Aspects of the Quest for Perfection,
by Daniel Shaw CSW - December, 1999

The original document is on Daniel Shaw's website at http://hometown.aol.com/shawdan/dark-side.htm

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 19:39:06 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Where does this guy find all this stuff,
Message:
he is like the CIA, anything you want is in his papers.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 18:58:58 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sorry, the above printed twice,stop halfway.....
Message:
Sorry, you know what they say about perfection. It's unattainable.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:55:14 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: shp thinks its attainable.....nt
Message:
djf
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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 20:30:27 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: joe, Nigel at al
Subject: oh boy this thread...
Message:
Hoo boy that extract really touched a nerve (a deep one). How true it is and thanks Joe for posting it.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:28:35 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 10% off on Visions sales with your SmartCard!!
Message:
True !!!! This is how they advertise it theses days. Not that many premies bought it, and now you NEED to give a picture and show your ID card at premies programs !!!!!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 18:03:21 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: defenitly an Identity card to keep track of
Message:
who is who, I will be surprised if it wont turn into a rechargable card after a while, hell even an EV credit card.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:05:40 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: satsanghi support group
Message:
i've just been reading some of the postings on this site.i'ts just like a duplicate of this one.more poor bastards been hoodwinked and when you take all the other groups of similar elk there must be thousands of us.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:22:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: Intentional pun, there, buzz?
Message:
'Similar elk'?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:40:00 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: UNBELIEVABLE: charnamrit distributed in 99
Message:
after darshan, a recent ex just confessed on the French forum!!!!!!!!!!!

for those who can read French

Delhi 98, Kathmandou 98, Delhi 99

For Indians, and all westerners who were 'doing service'!!!!!

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 07:45:24 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel/ Sir Dave
Subject: UNBELIEVABLE: charnamrit / In your dreams!!!!
Message:

Jean-Michel wrote'

UNBELIEVABLE: charnamrit ditributed in 99

Delhi 98, Kathmandou 98, Delhi 99.

Kjarne writes:

I partisipated the programs in Delhi and Kathmandu in 98. I did service in both programs.

What is described in Sir Daves translation did not happen in those programs.

I have never heard that charnamrit is distrubuted in any program in the 80`s or 90`s.

I was in Amaroo in 97 too. Did not happen there either.

I think you guys dream a lot. Maybe this stories happen in your dreams?

A Darshan-line in India with 90.000 people will take one month to finish.

Wake up. Use your brain an not your mind.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 08:22:53 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: You don't understand much of what you read!!!
Message:
The darshan mentioned are special darshans organized for persons who've done service at the programs in thoses places: westerners and indians. I've been part of those (last time in 1996), and YOU KNOW it happened !!!
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 08:28:54 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You don't understand much of what you read!!!
Message:

It can`t be.

I did service in Amaroo 97, Delhi 98 and Kathmandu 98.

DID NOT HAPPEN THERE!!!

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:31:27 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: Kjarne you've been there? Why don't you tell us
Message:
what happened ?

Is it true that darshan happened in a few places in 99 ?

Which one have you been a part of ? How was it ?

You know what ? I tend to trust people who've been there and say what happened, rather than people who say 'I was there, but none of this happened' and don't say what actually happened according to them.

Fair ?

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:06:49 (GMT)
From: A Real X
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Kjarne you've been there? Why don't you tell us
Message:
What I find entirely fascinating Mr Jean Michel is your obsession with what is happening now. I think you are curious on the basis that you are reactionary. But your claims as to being an EX are bogus. You eat drink and sleep this stuff. If you really were an X you would be gone......Like me:>).......
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 18:27:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: A Real X
Subject: Bullshit, Real X
Message:
What JM is doing is fighting to rectify some injustice and to hold his former cult and its leader accountable for same.

All you're advocating is running from your past or, at best, ignoring it. If that's what you want, suit yourself. Sounds like you probably don't have anything bigger in you, anyway.

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 00:12:35 (GMT)
From: The X Men
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bullshit, Jim,you are obsessive compulsive!
Message:
You fit the same bill. You and he are nothing more than a couple of piddling flies in the ointment. Insignificant and totally obssessed. As you have been since your first encounter. A Reactionary joke - that's what you are. And on the subject of your abusive tirade's conclusion - you'll never know.

X mean's gone ..outta there. You're not ,you are totally stuck.

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 14:43:06 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: The X Men
Subject: What are you doing here???
Message:
WHY do you come to this site?

What do you get from your visits?

You are such a nice person.

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 01:18:27 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: The X Men
Subject: Bullshit, Jim,you are obsessive compulsive!
Message:
If you're so gone, what are you doing reading this forum and posting messages to it?
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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 08:41:15 (GMT)
From: Uncanny X men
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Bullshit, Jim,you are obsessive compulsive!
Message:
Blowing your Toot??
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:06:23 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Kjarne you've been there? Why don't you tell us
Message:
You also asked me if there was true that Darshan happened in a few places in 99.

I don`t know. I attended the program in Barcelona in july 99 and there was no Darshan there.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:25:42 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: And what about darshan in Amaroo, Japan, Mauritius
Message:
Malaysai and Ivory Coast some participants reported ????

Maybe you just didn't heard about them?

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:31:14 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: And what about darshan in Amaroo, Japan, Mauritius
Message:
I have not heard of those.

Sorry, I don`t deny anything. I honestly don?t know!!

In Amaroo there was Darshan in 97, but not as described in the french forum.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:45:09 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: Darshan? Please, tell me what you feel!!!!!
Message:
How was it? So exciting! Rawat's feet....
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:34:58 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: We're getting somewhere now !!!
Message:
Bidouc is not talking about the darshan in Amaroo 97.

Why don't you describe it yourself? That would give you some credibility!!!!

Ashamed? Embarrassed?

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:57:07 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Kjarne you've been there? Why don't you tell us
Message:
I will tell you what happened in Delhi and Kathmandu in 98.

In Delhi there was no Darshanline for the western people who did service. The indians, I don`t know.

In Kathmandu there was a Darshanline for the western people who did service. We just passed by Maharaji and did not touch Him. It was not at all as the frensh premie discribed in the french Forum.

I hope you understand my english. I have a problem expressing myself in english because this is not my mothers languege.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 11:34:32 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: Did you bow down?
Message:

In Kathmandu there was a Darshanline for the western people who did service. We just passed by Maharaji and did not touch Him.

Did you bow down to him and look at him reverently? What was your experience?
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:32:58 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: You haven't been invited, that's all!!!
Message:
Where (in which area) have you been 'doing service' there ? Where did you sleep ?

I'll tell you how it used to happen. Quite often 1 or 2 days before the program actually started, and NOT ALL persons doing service were invited!

Usually it started with a rumor, and then you didn't know where to stay during your service, because it used to be very confidential and I actually missed it quite a few time. Then at some time morning or afternoon, someone (security or one of your team member) would come and tell you: 'Darshan NOW' in such or such place. And it was secret, and you were not supposed to tell it to any other premie or friend. And if you were having a chai in the Indian camp, or at sales, or doing service trying to find out some impossible/unlikely chair or cable somewhere, you'd miss it.

I'VE been there ...... and Bidouc also !!!!

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 11:37:36 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel/ all ex ès
Subject: I was invited!!!I
Message:

I can recognise that discription you gave about how you are invited to Darshan. Thats how it happened in Kathmandu.

I was doing safety -service. In the program in Delhi I was there 2 days before the program started. I was invited to be there 2 days before. I think I would be invited if there was a Darshan there too . The same in Kathmandu.

But anyway, what is so wrong about all this?.

Darshan is an Indian/eastern tradition. It belongs to this culture. Thats how students show the respect for the teacher, and I have no problems with it. You should not either.

I enjoy the feeling when I go to Darshan as you all did ones.

Don`t fool around with me and make jokes because I try to be honest about is.

If that happens I will leave immediately!

Maybe I should say goodbye allready because all you guys can do is to make jokes.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:24:46 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: tradition tradition
Message:

But anyway, what is so wrong about all this?.

Touchy touchy, I'm not saying it's like serial murder, it's not that bad.

Darshan is an Indian/eastern tradition. It belongs to this culture. Thats how students show the respect for the teacher, and I have no problems with it. You should not either.

Just because something is a tradition doesn't mean it is automatically beyond reproach. Clitoradectomy is a tradition in some areas in Africa, stoning a woman to death for adultery is a tradition in some fundamentalist Islamic cultures. Being traditional doesn't make a practice right or wrong.

I disagree with your use of the word 'should'. You're trying to make it sound immoral for someone to view the practice of darshan as immoral or just stupid, as if it's a 'hands off' subject. Why do you have a problem with someone having a dim view of it? Sure, kissing someone's feet has a different meaning in India, but in this context, it's not just showing mere respect. Why should someone kiss another person's feet? It reminds me of a submissive dog exposing its neck to the alpha male dog.

I enjoy the feeling when I go to Darshan as you all did ones.

I'm not criticizing your feelings, except your possible feelings of submission. What I question is the idea that Maharaji is the cause of your feelings, also the idea that he can actually bless water so that it becomes Holy Water.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 13:39:59 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: Me too!!! All I like is people to be honest
Message:
and I thank you for that.

Ask Bidouc to give you more details on the charnamrit thing, I have no doubt he will, and see how come you didn't get it! Maybe you were not in the same darshan session.

I've often seen him having more than 1 special session like this ...... you too I'm sure. We've been to the same place!!!

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 14:11:01 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hate has never been a good fruit!!!.
Message:
I was in the darshansession in Kathmandu in 98, but I don`t think it`s necessary to go deeper into that with Bidouc.

Darshan is special for premies and you as an ex-instructor should know that.

The difference between you and me is that you don`t believe in Maharaji anymore. I still do.

And that is why we see things different.

If Maharaji was a fraud, I would never go to any programs and meet him, but I don`t see him as a fraud. I see him as my spirituell teacher.

I hope that you all can go on with your lives soon and finally forget about Knowledge and Maharaji.

Hate has never been a good fruit!!!.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:04:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: This is no joke, Kjarne, just VERY stupid
Message:
Really, fella, whether English is your mother's language or not, saying something like this is astounding:

If Maharaji was a fraud, I would never go to any programs and meet him, but I don`t see him as a fraud. I see him as my spirituell teacher.

In the context of whether, in this case, Maharaji is a fraud and thus appearances may, in fact, be deceiving, your argument is what? That he appears to you as a spiritual teacher?

Fortunately -- and I'm really not trying to hurt you -- most people hear themselves speak and naturally safeguard against such irrationality. This sounds as if you're talking in your sleep or something. And no, language has nothing to do with it. Logic does. Rationality does. Having the courage to think and discuss the matter fairly and unflinchingly does.

Smarten up.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:14:40 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I am not stupid, Jim
Message:
Kjarne wrote:

If Maharaji was a fraud,I would never go to any programs and meet him, but I don`t see him as a fraud. I see him as my spirituell teacher.

You don`t see my argument here, so I must be stupid.

I am not arguing. Just trying to explain why I am still a premie and not an ex.

Maybe this is better:

If I saw Maharaji as a fraud, I would never go to any programs and meet him, but I don`t see him as a fraud. I see him as my spirituell teacher.

Better now, Jim?

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 18:03:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: No, Kjarne, it's not better. It's STUPIDER!
Message:
Here's how dumb you are.

You start off making an argument that is pathetic. That being, essentailly, that Maharaji's not a fraud because you see him as your spiritual teacher. Don't deny it. That's what you claimed and yes, by the way, that's called an 'argument'.

Anyway, in an attempt to clear it up, I guess, you reduce it to this:

If I saw Maharaji as a fraud, I would never go to any programs and meet him, but I don`t see him as a fraud. I see him as my spirituell teacher.

which is even worse. Now you're just saying that if you thought Maharaji was a fraud you wouldn't follow him. I mean, what's that? That's nothing.

You are a very, very poor thinker, Kjarne. Are you sure you're not Bjorn? Because he was about as stupid as you are.

By the way, can't you take a hint? There's no such word as 'spirituell'.

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 01:10:56 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, You must be a lawyer!!!!
Message:

Hey Jim, you must be a lawyer. I deal with them daily and they think they are the crown of creation.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 03:40:28 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: Maybe not, but you're unbelievably naive,
Message:
although, some people I'm led to believe see this as an attractive trait,

beware of such people I say, 'for the naive person is truly the most dangerous of all'.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:33:33 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: It never was a joke to me either
Message:
When I realised that Maharaji wasn't the One and All, everything I had ever dreamed of and hoped for, my God come to me in human form, it was no joke. See what I wrote when I realised the truth.

Perhaps these days, people are content with just a master who might be something special. Sorry but I wanted HIM and not some second best thing. Most of the people on this page have felt the same way.

We are not joking here. We have all been and still are sincere. How can you spend 25 years believing that the Lord was on the planet and then suddenly realise it wasn't true. It's a pretty devastating realisation. We pick up the pieces here.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 11:49:59 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I am really touched!
Message:

Great poem sir Dave

I am really touched!!

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:13:36 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Here's a bad translation
Message:
Here is a bad translation:

The Indian premies were invited and... the other ones who did service. At the exit, you are entitled to a small package with a candy (!) and, water BENITE by its holiness Rawat. Yes that exists still the small holy water bottle, into 99 one had right, which chance there. There is sampouranand which heats the room. It is in hindi, but you includes/understands easily, they make similar at Dechavanne. Before the Great Moment, it arrangue crowd bolei shri satgurudev maharaji..., in short the cry of raliement ' glory to the Master suprême' I badly heard, repeat after me! bolei shri satgurudev... Crowd begins again in heart a little more extremely. At the end of the 5th time, it is is delirious it, people are ready to hear an Indian instructor speech of the size of the Master before passing in front of him.

The corridor, the gift box kept well, then it is the omnipresent camera, hidden behind a curtain. Ca makes so beautiful a line of darshan in a video, one sees even people crying... And you arrive, the boss sitting, impertubable with this type which you growths not to waste time. You set out again and you are entitled to your candy. I gave it to an Indian, it me A blesses! Amaroo, Africa, yes there is also the ritual. It is always a little odd to explain the darshan with small new with which one repeated that it was not a sect nor a religion.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 08:25:22 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Here's a bad translation/ Translate again
Message:
Sir Dave

Can you translate my reply to Jean-Michel and you and put it on the french forum?

This is the english verson.

Jean-Michel wrote:

UNBELIEVABLE: charnamrit distributed in 99

Delhi 98, Kathmandou 98, Delhi 99

Kjarne writes:

I partisipated the programs in Delhi and Kathmandu in 98. I did service in both programs.

What is described in Sir Daves translation did not happen in those programs.

I have never heard that charnamrit is distributed in any program in the 80`s or 90`s.

I was in Amaroo in 97 too. Did not happen there either.

I think you guys dream a lot. Maybe this stories happen i your dreams?

A Darhan-line in India with 90.000 people will take one month to finish.

Wake up!! Use youy brains and not your minds!!

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:08:48 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: Here's another great translation
Message:
I do believe you're jealous, Kjarne. You missed the candy and holy water. Perhaps you were not worthy. Perhaps you have to be a part of the inner circle to get these things.

You want me to translate into French. Here it is:

Kjarne écrit: Je partisipated les programmes à Delhi et à Katmandou dans 98. Je service dans les deux programmes. Ce qui est décrit dans la traduction de monsieur Dave ne s'est pas produit dans ces programmes. Je n'ai jamais entendu que le charnamrit est distribué dans n'importe quel programme dans le 80`s ou le 90`s. Pourquoi est-ce que quelqu'un ne m'a pas dit?

J'étais dans Amaroo dans 97 aussi. Ne s'est pas produit là non plus. Je vous pense rêve de types beaucoup. Peut-être ce les histoires se produisent dans vos rêves? Une Darhan-ligne en Inde avec 90,000 personnes prendra un mois à la finition. Réveillez-vous!! Utilisez-vous des cerveaux et non vos esprits!! Je suis très jaloux que je n'ai pas obtenu à la sucrerie et à l'eau sainte!

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 11:55:49 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: If you take away the last line it will be fine.
Message:

It will be a great translation if you take away the last line.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:45:47 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Great, Dave, but about that last line...(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:09:54 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: I can read between the lines (nt)
Message:
I can read between the lines.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:42:48 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: Indian darshan lines
Message:
'A Darhan-line in India with 90.000 people will take one month to finish.'

I was in a darshan-line in the early 80s whene there were over 100000 people it was done in 3 or four sessions over a few half-days.
I should add that in the Indian darshan lines there was always someone(usually sampuranand) who was shouting at and hitting people to make them go faster..and only Indians were hit.

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 08:36:59 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Their culture must accept this type of thing
Message:
That is awful. Where is the video of THAT shit, people being hit to move on in the darshan line to kiss the fake god's lipstick smeared socks. oh well in India he didn't wear socks ??? yes,no?
I'm so pissed right now, reading this.

I know it must have been filmed. someone has it. This would be the most damnding evidence ever. More powerful than reposts of public records. (no offense anyone who has done this, well most anyone)

shit I wish someone would come forth with THAT footage. It could be converted it, no matter what the media,no matter how old.
ok ok ... calm down Selene. shit. well my email is on record.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:37:25 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: You've never been there my friend! lame denial
Message:
I've watched the Indian darshan lasting for hours.

Several lines at the same time, I can even draw a chart of how it was organized, and we were allowed to sit in the western section and watch the scene !!!

Ordinary premies were not allowed to actually touch the 'master's' feet, but would bend over a wooden ridge a few feet away from him.

We are talking about the very special darshan where premies actually touch his feet, and only a few thousands are invited. I'VE BEEN PART OF THOSE !!!! Not all premies doing service were invited. Only a selected few dozens (or maybe a bit more) westerners, and a few hundreds Indians maybe a bit more: but not all premies doing service (30% of the participants).

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 11:19:47 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I saw a video showing darshan recently
Message:
I saw a video that showed darshan about two years ago. The video makers were coy about it. It showed Rawat sitting there and people filing past him and bowing, but didn't actually show people kissing his feet. It only showed the very beginning of the bowing. It seemed like an attempt to show darshan so that pwkies who haven't kissed his feet would not know what was going on. It seemed like a two-faced video. I wonder if it was also an attempt to 'ease' new pwkies into the idea of darshan by suggesting what was going on but not actually fully showing it.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:02:42 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I own it
Message:
Is about 6 minutes long. Its title is Baisaki something. PWK can easily know what the people passing by him are doing; kissing his feet. mahariachi gives private darshans. One of my friends got one not long a go. He is one of the 'generous contributors' to whom EV refers to on its site.

Darshan is still available for the super devotees.

Lard deserves to have his feet kiss, you know. The experience is all by his grace. It's magic. He is a magic man. What a joke!

I'll answer your mail soon. Thanks!!

sb

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:48:04 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Re:I own it
Message:
It would be great if a portion of that Baisaki video could run here in the same way that the video clips run on Elan Vital's website.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:04:54 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Excellent idea
Message:
It can be very benefitial to include in this site portions of incriminatory videos as proof of the sweetest ways of the master, especially, his scarry tactics.

How can that be done? This site need some improvement to match 'HIS'.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:52:22 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: I hate to mention it, but watch out for the
Message:
copyright issue!

However, if some brave soul had a site that could easily be relocated if 'Visions' got stroppy , then ...

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:56:01 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Here's a really bad translation
Message:
Sir Dave,
you really should consider a job as a translator...I particularly liked 'It is always a little odd to explain the darshan with small new'

The mind also boggles at the picture of Sampuranand impersonating a radiator: 'There is sampouranand which heats the room.'

It is indeed 'delirious it, people are ready to hear an Indian instructor speech of the size of the Master before passing in front of him.'

This is possibly your best post to date.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:11:38 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Thanks - I do my best (nt)
Message:
z
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 22:13:08 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: UNBELIEVABLE: charnamrit distributed in 99
Message:
JM,

This is very interesting and worth translating to include it here on the English language Forum. Current premies in the West will either freak out or bliss out to read about this darshan event.

C'est tres interessant aussi ce 'Diffusion du Message' decrit par Bidouc, et ses projets pour la programme du 25 Sept. Pouvez-vous expliquer ici ce que ca veut dire, ou peut-etre c'est un secret? L'espace dans le Palais des Congres, c'est les ex-premies qui vont l'animer? Si vrai, bonne chance!! (pardon, pas d'accents).

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 07:31:55 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Don't you like Sir Dave's translation?
Message:
I'm still laughing ........ Isn't all this so ridiculous?

Please send me your translation, and I'll be glad to enshrine it ....

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 14:17:53 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Don't you like Sir Dave's translation?
Message:
Yes, Sir Dave gets the idea across quite nicely.

Maybe you will get some feet-kissing in September, eh?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:56:42 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: bolei shri satgurudev
Message:
The 'bonbon', would that be prashad? And they shouted 'bolei shreak blah blah blah' five times per the 'repeat after me' command of a 'mahatma'? Am I reading this right?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 18:55:13 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Another 'ki jai' to another guru
Message:
The following is a web page that displays devotion to Shirdi Sai Baba, yet another god in human form. There's very familiar stuff: arti, feet, etc.

OM JAI SAI RAM

'ki jai' translates to 'Hail!'

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 04:06:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: G and JM
Subject: dammit you guys
Message:
I'm trying to work here. G I am worried about your new Sai baba
fixation :) but he is so cute after all. And maybe the sprouts would be good for survival food or something.

JM this charanrit thing, I'll never forget my first 'gift'
given the water told it was from his feet - AFTER I drank it!!

you know, why was it I didn't like it then and felt guilty about it? I'm such a fuckup with shit ... I kinda like rogers comment about not wanting to be a member of any group that would have me.
THAT is exactly how I felt after drinking that shit.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 12:15:59 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: a different sai baba
Message:
'Shirdi Sai Baba' is a different sai bubba than the Mr. Sprout Head largest-afro-in-the-world guy ('Sathya Sai Baba'). A former co-worker followed 'Shirdi Sai Baba', who was this old guy who lived a while ago and was fond of wearing bandanas. One 'practice' my co-workier did was to throw up on purpose first thing in the morning. He would also bow down to a picture of 'Shirdi Sai Baba' displayed on his computer, similar to the cyber-darshan on the web site.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 04:36:46 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: dammit is right !
Message:
you know, why was it I didn't like it then and felt guilty about it?

I brought one of my high-school buddies to satsang in the early 70's. When the charnamrit was passed around and I told him we were drinking water that M had stuck his toe in, he ran right into the bathroom and puked. No kidding.

And then I felt guilty for bringing him there.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:24:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Anyone want to hook-up in TO, Mtl or maybe Ottawa?
Message:
My girlfriend, Laurie, and I are going to be back east in Toronto, Montreal and maybe Ottawa later this month and would love to have a drink with like-minded individuals. We are clean, non-smokers. I am about five-ten (and a half) and Laurie is a comely blond, five-two, who's weight fluctuates between .....

No, seriously, we're going to be there. If you want to get together, let me know:

heller@bc1.com

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:42:59 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No, but how about Malibu or Amaroo?
Message:
I might also consider Miami Beach, or wherever M does the next event.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 14:30:03 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Help Sir Dave.
Message:
G'day milud,

I hope all is well in sunny England.

Could you email me the URL of the place where all the Jagdeo files are sitting please?

Thanks

Anth the Lost It

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:02:40 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Here it is
Message:

Child abuse in Maharaji's cult


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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 12:54:43 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Thanks Sir Dave (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 13:11:35 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Who are those people?
Message:
Edward Alexander Hann -/Hamillton/Queensland.
Kerry John Hellbrnn -/Annerley/Queensland.
Martin Maximillian Klapper -/The Gap/Queensland.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:38:15 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Who are those people?
Message:
Is Hellbrnn spelled correctly?
-------------------------------------------------------
It looks to me that Martin Klapper is a lawyer.
http://www.law.uq.edu.au/prospectus/intprogs.html
Mr Martin Klapper (Hopgood Ganim)
http://www.hopgoodganim.com.au/
http://www.hopgoodganim.com.au/html2/people/klapper.htm
Level 3, 141 Queen Street
BRISBANE. AUSTRALIA 4000

GPO Box 367
BRISBANE. QLD 4001

Telephone: (07) 3234 7777
Fax: (07) 3221 9290
ISD Telephone: ISD 61 7 3234 7777
Email: hag@hopgoodganim.com.au
-------------------------------------------------------
From http://www.aussie.com.au/:
Media ~ Conferences and Exhibitions ~ Convention / Conference Venues
Ivory's Rock Conference Center
Address
Mount Flinders Road
Peak Crossing QLD 4306
Phone (07) 5464-8200
-------------------------------------------------------
Reference web sites:

http://www.citec.com.au/
http://www.confirm.com.au/
-------------------------------------------------------
From www.dictionary.com:

nominee
1. One who has been nominated to an office or for a candidacy.
2. A person or an organization in whose name a security is registered though true ownership is held by another party.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:05:01 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Hellbronn is the correct spelling.
Message:
The last know (1995) address for Klapper is

91 Waverly St.
Annerley
Queensland.

Do you know if any of these (3)are premies?

Salam

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 19:36:22 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I wonder
Message:
I wonder if 'Jeep' as in 'Jeep Nominees' is related to Prem Rawat liking jeeps. I noticed at Amaroo that he was very into this jeep that he was driving. How he loves all the 'maya' he owns.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:33:13 (GMT)
From: afriend
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Is that important?
Message:
dont wast your time on whoiswho.....life is too precious....focus your energy on who you ar and where you want to go
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:29:43 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: afriend
Subject: English lesson
Message:
The above sentences should be written more as follows:

'Don't waste your time on who is who because life is too precious. Instead, focus your energy on who you are and where you want to go.'

I would assume that English is your second language. Still, you should try to focus your energy on being clear about what you want to express. The use of '.....' as punctuation is improper in any language. It only gives a false air of profundity. It is less than unimpressive. Are you imitating Maharaji's long pauses? If so, you are not being yourself. As you said, focus on who you are.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:58:43 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: G: would you say the following senario will
Message:
fit into what Klapper does?

A perfect plan for a perfect theif

Is this how EV US(church) transfer funds to EV INC Australia, in this case the Amaroo project.

EV US decides to buy a land in Australia, They issue a straight forward fund transfer to EV Australia,
(note that the only common thing between the two EVs is the name only. All other things are independent.)

Once EV Australia recieves the transfer, they use it as instructed by EV US, say for example to spend the money on extending and improving the property. No laws are broken, as EV Australia is only acting as a broaker for EV US.

In return EV Australia will bill EV US for this service, meaning more money can leave the US. They will also bill them for other things, such as holding events for gm.

When nothing is happening, EV Australia can pay rent to EV US for using their grounds to hold conferences or other activities. Not a big deal for EV US to justify to the IRS.

EV Australia will most likely donnate huge amount of cash to EV US to avoid paying tax to the Australian Tax Office.

So there you go, a million doller is sent to Australia by one non-profitable organisation to purchase a land, the land is improved during a period of 10 years with free labor, by then it would have doubled in value. Premies are encouraged to attend events on the land and contributing, that money goes to a company that gives it back to the charity, the million dollers has turned into two or three, the tax office in both countries are out of pocket,everything remains in the family, and bob is your uncle.

Why do I fell like crying?

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 00:34:08 (GMT)
From: A little Aussie battler
Email: Pitt St Sydney
To: Salam
Subject: G: would you say the following senario will
Message:
Yeah that's EXACTLY how it's done. Gee your clever. You opened it up just like it was a nursery rhyme book. Second nature that. Boy will the suit's think you're smart. Lucky you are on the job Salam. Otherwise no-one would have known.
Oh by the way.....don't bother with any facts. I'm sure the suits will know that coming from you Salam its all Kosher
Yeah right on! Can you have a look at George Bush Jnr's campaign funds next? Should be a snap for a slueth like you!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 18:21:14 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: not sure
Message:
I'm not sure about the exact scenario and I'm no expert on financial dealings. But I would say that some very creative financial arrangements are involved between Elan Vital Inc. Australia and the other Elan Vitals. What is Elan Vital's status in Australia?

I believe the following statements from the web page on the Martin Klapper I mentioned are evidence that he is the Klapper involved with Amaroo.

'Over 10 years experience in advising Japanese investors in respect of Property Investment in Queensland.'

'Representing a range of commercial clients in the manufacturing sector in respect of domestic and international agreements and operations.'

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 18:58:42 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: not sure
Message:
That is exactly what I thought when I read his profile, also if you notice the link to the university of Queensland, the Moot competition:

http://www.law.uq.edu.au/prospectus/intprogs.html

Willem C Vis International Commercial Arbitration Moot Competition

The TC Beirne School of Law of The University of Queensland participates in the prestigious Willem C Vis International Commercial Arbitration Moot. Willem C Vis (1924-1993) was a world-recognised expert in international commercial transactions and dispute settlement procedures.

This annual competition brings together students from diverse cultures through a common endeavour: the training of law leaders of tomorrow in principles of international commercial law and techniques of international commercial arbitration. The Moot is organised by the Institute of International Commercial Law at the Pace University School of Law, New York and is sponsored by various international institutions, including UNCITRAL. The competition stimulates the study of international commercial law, especially the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the international Sale of Goods (Vienna Convention, 1980), and various arbitration rules. The competition offers participants an opportunity to interpret these texts in the light of different legal systems and to develop an expertise in advocating a position before an arbitral panel composed of arbitrators from different legal systems.

I am not a lawyer, but I have a freind that does international law, and he think that it is possible that is how EV does it(by the way EV Australia is Incorporated).

On thing for sure, if this is the same Klapper, EV knows how to choose their lawyers.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 19:15:00 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: EV Australia
Message:
Is EV Australia registered with any special status, such as non-profit, church, etc., or is it just a profit corporation?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 20:30:16 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: EV Australia
Message:
As you said, about EV, no special status. 1995 share allotement shows them to be owned entirly by Jeeps, however there has been a new share release, I think last year, have not got the details yet. I will post the allotment of shares for Jeeps as soon as I can, meanwhile notice that Jeeps and EV had the same registered agent in 1995

Clark and Khan Lawyers
Level 7, Colonial Mutual Building
Post Office Square, Brisbane, Q
tel : 07 2315222
fax : 07 22290005

can you find a link between this one and Klapper.

You'r right about gum ji's love with Jeeps, I think it is something to do with the shape of his divine dick. He like to clime over anyone he sees, gives him a sense of supremecy.

I am off to bed, 6:30 in the morning, zzzzzzzz

p.s. EV is only the bussiness name, Ivory's Rock is there
trading name.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 22:26:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Clarke and Kann, EV Australia
Message:
I find references to 'Clarke and Kann' in Brisbane.

Clarke and Kann is a highly recommended law firm, see this legal profile.

Ross Clarke - Managing Partner
Eddie Kann - Partner

See University of Queensland - Welcome... for a tie between 'Clarke and Kann' and Martin Klapper.

See this reference to Clarke and Kann. Btw, Cowell and Clarke (a different Clarke) have a pretty good legal links page.

Principal Areas of Practice: Corporate and Business, Banking and Finance, Intellectual Property and Technology, International Business, Mining, Resources and Energy, Environment, Tax and Revenue.

300 Queen Street, Post Office Square, Brisbane 4000
Phone: (07) 3231 5222
Fax: (07) 3229 0005

Note that on the EV Australia web site they write:

'Elan Vital Incorporated (Australia) is a non-profit association which organises events and conferences in Australia. ...'

Is being a 'non-profit association' anything official in Australia?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:12:20 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: afriend
Subject: Are you the same piss artists that told me
Message:
not to bother 2 weeks ago? Why do you always pop up everytime I start ruffling EV's feathers in Australia? I hate life. I hate being happy. I love wasting my time, so stick it up your nose and do not tell me what to do.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:58:49 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: afriend
Subject: Is that important?
Message:
Thats what were doing focuing on where we want to go - which part of is finding out who these jokers are - get out of the cult get a life - learn to speak in real sentences and understanble words that the rest of the world can grasp the meaning of.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:41:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: afriend
Subject: Yes, but who are YOU? (nt)
Message:
fffff
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 13:27:22 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Ivory's Rock conference center's done some good!
Message:
The Ipswich Arts Foundation is grateful for the support of the following institutions, corporations, businesses and individuals. Their support has helped to transform the Global Arts Link vision into reality. This is an outstanding example of how government, corporate and private sectors have worked together to build and sustain a magnificent institution for the Ipswich community, our country and the world.

And gess who's supporting them ?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 13:44:52 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: glad do not have to find the link.
Message:
The above trio aare the primary share holders of Jeep Nominees, or at least they were in 1995, do you know anything about them?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 12:55:37 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Thanks, Bobby ----nt
Message:
om
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:29:55 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Thanks, Bobby -
Message:
Hi Bobby,
Didnt mean to involve you here in the forum.
I have reread your essay often and it is good.
I will email when I get wide.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 10:35:58 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: That Experience: Hashish or Horse Shit
Message:
Once in the 70's, psychologists identified a group of experienced dope smokers. They divided the group into two rooms.

In one room, they provided the lucky subjects with some powerful hashish. In the other room, they provided the group of subjects with dried horse turd looking like hash.

In the room with the horse turd, about 2/3's of the participants demonstrated similar behaviors to those in the room with the real hash.

I don't know why I just remembered this but I thought I'd pass it along, in case anyone finds it relevant to our topic here.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 23:50:02 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Placebos
Message:
I remember, many years back, inhaling a certain substance. I'm not going to say what this substance was, just that I inhaled. I don't recall what the substance was, honest. I had inhaled this substance a few times before with a certain resulting effect. Well this time, the same effect happened immediately as soon as I inhaled.

Here's a link to an article about placebos called Astonishing Medical Fact: Placebos Work!. Criticisms welcome.

DISCLAIMER: My posting this link does not mean that I agree or disagree with the article. It is FYI only.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:27:40 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: What sort of substance, come on, do not be shy..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:37:50 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I do not recall
Message:
I do not recall, I swear, honest, I'm not lying, really, trust me, it was a long time ago, I only did it a few times, what's so wrong with it, why do you have a problem with it, I enjoyed the feeling I got from it, how did it hurt anyone.

Ok, I'll tell you this, it wasn't horse shit.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 22:34:30 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: The horseshit effect?
Message:
or the 'hiring a lawyer effect?

Whiplash suits make pain last longer: study

BY ANDY OGLE

EDMONTON • A landmark Saskatchewan study of whiplash injuries shows that people who hire lawyers to pursue claims for pain and suffering take twice as long to recover.

Not only did people get better twice as fast, the number of injury claims dropped by 28% when Saskatchewan went to a no-fault insurance system, says the study published today in the New England Journal of Medicine.

The study, headed by David Cassidy, now a University of Alberta public health sciences professor, looked at injury claims made in Saskatchewan in the six months prior to elimination of the tort system and in the year after the nofault system began on Jan. 1, 1995.

During the 18-month period, 9,006 injury claims were made, of which 830% were for whiplash.

The study, paid for by
Saskatchewann Government Insurance, showed that the median time to close a whiplash claim dropped from 433 days in thc six-monlh period before no-fault came in to 194 days in the first six Inonths after and to 203 days in
the second six-month period of no-fault insurance, It also found the most important factor in recovery was whether the claimant had hired a lawyer. Those who did took about 25O days longer to close their claims under the tort system than those who didn't.
Under the no-fault system, the number of claimants who used a lawyer dropped from 22% to 5%. The main finding of the study, Prof. Cassidy said, is that the system under which people are compeIls~ted seems to be more important than the severity of the injury in the recovery process.
'When an insurance system causes people to focus on pain and suffering, they can't focus on getting better,' Prof. Cassidy said.

Edmonton Journal

(From this year)

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 23:53:02 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: rotten vegetables
Message:

Whiplash suits make pain last longer: study

BY ANDY OGLE

EDMONTON • A landmark Saskatchewan study of whiplash injuries shows that people who hire lawyers to pursue claims for pain and suffering take twice as long to recover.

...

I think it's worth considering how this relates to Rotwat's 'rotten vegetables' type comments, or voodoo curses for that matter.

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Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 13:30:40 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Throwing out rotten vegetables
Message:
Hi G,

Haven't felt at all like posting lately, but I'm still thinking about this question of placebos, and perhaps their opposite, 'curses'. Of course there are many other factors beyond these positive and negative suggestions. Does it mean that some operations are unnecessary? ( I think so.) What fraction of the general population can be easily hypnotized, and if so, why? Are they in a relatively chronic hypnotic state? Is there any correlation between this set and those who might 'create their own symptoms' (?-hypnosis?) at times, and those who best respond to placebos? How do m's 'trips' fit in with all of this? Hypnosis/placebo combined? How have m's 'curses' and other thoughtforms affected current and former premies?

Another question that intrigues me is the lengthening of the recovery period through the legal process of seeking compensation for damages. Whatever the possible implications, at times it would seem that many have no other recourse, which is one reason why 'no-fault' insurance is favoured. If we take the question out of this context, it becomes more complicated. Justice in m's case means, at very least, exposing his game, so that others can avoid it. But is suffering 'bad', apart from the m-monishment to 'enjoy' life? Helping others to 'break free' and bringing other facets of his 'm-ness' into the light might lengthen the suffering to some extent. I often seem to relive the old pain if I have to really go back and remember certain events in order to discuss them again at a certain level of detail, so for me this would probably be so, at least for a period of time. And, to me events 'are', and cannot be 'put behind us' but instead need to be digested/understood, which is why this process is probably essential.

I began this 3 days ago and I'm still thinking about it without having drawn much of a conclusion. Why not post it?

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 00:48:57 (GMT)
From: Wiplashed horse shit with
Email: None
To: G
Subject: rotten vegetables milk shake, definitly gives you
Message:
a cick.

Salam

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 13:51:23 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: That Experience
Message:
So THAT'S where the phrase 'This is really good shit!' comes from!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 09:37:07 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: WHY CAN`T YOU GUYS EXEPT
Message:
that there are people in this world that realy enjoys Knowledge and to listen to Maharaji?

Is that so wrong?

Are we idiots because of that?

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 01:00:53 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: WHY CAN`T YOU GUYS SPELL??
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 01:06:41 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: because no one is teaching them how to!! (nt)
Message:
any more questions?
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:09:48 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Yeah, and who cares about 'that' education whe(nt)
Message:
when you have 'that' other one.

Ex-resident of Zombieland, sb

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 22:01:35 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Yeah, sure could be a factor! Hi SB! (nt)
Message:
Yeah, sure could be a factor! Hi SB! (nt)
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:40:32 (GMT)
From: Tami
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: Thank yu Kjarne.
Message:
I exept it. I due. I dunt think yu ar an idits. I lick to lissen to Muriji to. Nolidge is cule to. Ex primis ar just wikkid and meen. I cunt undirstand wy thoz guys cunt exept it and let us practis our religin. Wut did we do to them? Nothin.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 15:54:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: In a word, yes
Message:
Yes, you are idiots. Following Maharaji is abotu the dumbest thing I can think of. It requires such a blindered outlook on the world that yes, I'd say, it requires a certain kind of idiocy.

In any event, if anyone had any question about that, all they have to do is read the ways premies try to defend their faith. They look like complete idiots when they do that.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 11:17:43 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: WHY CAN`T YOU GUYS EXEPT
Message:
There is nothing wroung with knowledge Kjarne, accept there is no such a thing as knowledge.

The word is misleading.

Knowledge by itself is a method of doing something,
I do not understand how can you have a profound
experience opening your front door

If you have been around for so long, you must
have figured out by now that the techniques have been around
for as long as dinosours have been.

So there is nothing special about someone like gum ji
wrapping them up in fast food chain method
and presenting them to the world.

Secound there is nothing wroung with having a teacher either.

There are good teachers and bad teachers.

Above from the fact that the teacher should be good
in what he does, he should also stand for what he says, i.e.
a university professor that claims that he has discovered
so and so, should be able to prove it.

He should also conduct his work according to certain ethics.

If I was doing a reasearch on the history of EV/DLM and life
and teaching of maharaji, I will finda lot of flows in them.

EV and maharaji may refuse to answer questions, but hey, this
is the internet, I do not know who is reading this.

I do not care what your belives are, I do care that what you belive in is not a fraud.

In my opinion and those other exes, we belive maharaji
is a fraud, which really encompases all what
maharaji have done and is doing. It encompases also
his teaching, his disciples(including you), his method
of propagation(plus other minor things, like a 20 million
doller plane, and few mansions here and there).

It is very hard for you to except this just as you
think it is hard for us to except him.

For someone who has practiced knowledge and rolled in mud as happy as a pig thinking that maharaji is the answer
for so long it is hard to understand the ex-forum.

You and other herd members may not belive it, but every ex
has a story to tell, I do not need to direct to the journies
entry.

So the fight continues. You are for him, I am against him.

Would not the world be such a bore if everyone was a premie,
and gum ji the head of state
god, help.

So, there you go, I am only nice to you because you are asking
but do not count on it.

Salam

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 17:29:46 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: EXCEPTions require ACCEPTance, at times. (ot)
Message:
Please ACcept my humble effort to explain the difference between these often confused words, EXcept if you don't want to know. If that's the case, please ACcept my apologies for this intrusion.
;-)

By the way Salam, may I ask what your mother-tongue is? As I've taught people from just about everywhere I'm always curious. I have a lot of respect for anyone here who is writing in English-as-a-second language - it's difficult enough for me to express myself clearly in English at times!

And good post to Kjarne! I realize that he may be the only one who needs the explanation above.

'Schoolmarm' Stonor

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 21:55:58 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Schoolmarm and class
Subject: EXCEPTions require ACCEPTance, at times. (ot)
Message:
Good afternoon Ms. Stonor,

Here's some definitions from www.dictionary.com:

accept

except

G

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 23:25:24 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Let me add to that. (ot)
Message:
I didn't bother to go and check before I posted previously. It didn't seem possible. That's the first dictionary I've seen since the 1950's that has that pronunciation key. It's the same one I've based my work on. I took it from the family Funk and Wagnall's, simplified and integrated some of the more implicit aspects, and developed others. This is very interesting. Thank you.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 23:39:16 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Let me add to that again. (ot)
Message:
Now here, for example, is where Amazon's dictionary and the Funk and Wagnall's, which does not need to respell this word, differ:

am·bu·lance (mby-lns) You have to go to the site to see the way it is re-spelled; that's the way it copy and pasted. I only use that for explaining and connecting a particular dynamic to a symbol they seem to always see in contemporary dictionaries: the schwa.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:12:42 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: schwa, HTML links
Message:
I knew the meaning of ambulance but had to look up schwa.

Thank you for the lesson, Ms. Stoner.

Now here's an HTML lesson for everybody. To write a link, first type:

'>

Then type in a description for the link, such as

On-line dictionary

Finish up by typing the following ending HTML 'tag':

The entire example would be:

On-line dictionary

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:24:28 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: OK, that didn't post correctly
Message:
When I previewed the link write-up it looked ok, but it got translated when it posted because of the posting software.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:38:43 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: See Forum Help for HTML help
Message:
Rather than try to post a link write-up, I'll simply point out the Forum Help link at the top of this screen. The Help page is good at explaining how to write some HTML. Some things to remember about HTML is that there is a starting tag and an ending tag, also that tags can be combined by being nested.

For a link tag A, the internet location (URL) that's linked to goes within the opening tag as the value of the HREF property. The displayed text that can be clicked goes between the opening tag A and the closing tag /A.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 22:06:40 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Schoolmarm and class
Subject: oops, I meant 'Here are some ...' (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 01:03:33 (GMT)
From: Schoolmarm Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Now yer really yankin' my yardstick, Sonny! (nt)
Message:
Ya git to bed early fer a change, ya hear! er I'll be speakin' with yer mammy 'n pappy!
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 01:11:05 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Schoolmarm Stonor
Subject: Yes Ms. Stonor (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 11:44:38 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Yes Mr. G (ot)
Message:
Good morning G.

You're right; it's easier to do it that way! :-)

But I think I mixed up Salam with someone else ;-p

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 12:34:51 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Mr. G and Salam (ot)
Message:
. . . mixed up or not?

Hi Salam, your writing varies a bit ;-). I'll email you soon.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:28:45 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: mixed up? (ot)
Message:
I think Salam was up to 6:30 in the morning, if that is what you are referring to.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 23:06:23 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Aaaaah, yer jist teesin mi! (ot)
Message:
Dud a micks m uhp? LOL :-) But thanks for drawing my attention to that dictionary source. It could be very useful for students now that I think of it!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 20:39:57 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: EXCEPTions require ACCEPTance, at times. (ot)
Message:
this is my e-mail

Salam_au@iprimus.com.au

send me a mail, I will tell you.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 10:26:27 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: Yes (nt)
Message:
You're in a cult mate.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 10:16:07 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: Hey, Mickey - we've a winner! Answered just ...
Message:
as you said a premie would in your post below! But he/she forgot to mention that K is a gift .... so they loose a couple of points for that.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 09:48:01 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: WHY CAN`T YOU GUYS EXEPT
Message:
Have you 'realized' God, as was once promised? Because, Kjarne, there's a long way between just enjoying something and knowing the creator. Do you understand?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 11:07:06 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtzle
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The Gift comes from Him
Message:
Sorry Jerry...Have you realised God or anyone else for that matter...God realisation is not an automatic birth right...and how arrogant are we ...we can realise God...receiving this knowldge...does not give you automatic passport to God realisation...nor does anything else....

Actually its the other way round...'God Realisation' is a gift from God...and its not because of any effort we do....let me tell you what the rules or the passport is:

1. Humility and Love of God
2. Prayers
3. Meditation
4. Fasting
5. Absenance
6. Right conduct and action
6.Die before you Die...If you die with any of your ego still intact....that ego is a measure of your seperation from God

So if you have or dont have knowledge...that is not a precondition...many have reached the goal without this knowledge...in my tradition..certainly over the last 1400 years...

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 13:13:19 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtzle
Subject: The Gift comes from Him
Message:
Tell it to Maharaji, Eddy. You may be right in all you say. You may be wrong. The point is when Maharaji first brought Knowledge to the west, he promised God realiztion to those who practiced it. I don't know when you received Knowledge, maybe after Maharaji withdrew this promise. But the fact remains, he once promised it. So, tell me, how do you withdraw such a promise and still maintain credibility?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 11:15:17 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtzle
Subject: Cult Realisation
Message:
Eddy,

Sorry to break the news- but there's no such thing as 'God Realisation'. It's just a concept invented by wacky religious groups to try and get people to join. It's bit like the promise of going to 'Heaven' if you join this group or that group.

It's all bullshit Eddy.

Why not try a bit of 'Cult Realisation' instead.

Anth the Unrealised

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 12:28:57 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Yeah True
Message:
That what I said ...you cant realise God...that is absurd...maybe God can realise you...that makes more sense...Just imagine sitting there under a blanket or whatever, trying to realise God...I guess God would say...hey you...dont sit there...do something...go and feed a hungry guy...or whatever...

I think this cult and new age concept of God realisation is just crazy and misleading....it has come about from Yoga and Buddhist philisophies...the idea that an individual can realise God by their own effort sitting in meditation...It is misleading alot of folks...

Just as a passing remark....story time... :-)

Jesus passed an old man in the hills of ('Judea') praying to God..please let me see you as Mosses saw you... So Jesus prays for this guy and says please God...fillfull this man's prayer...and God says to Jesus...OK because you asked, I will give him at atom of my Sight...just one Atom

So Jesus continues on his journey....and on his way back...he looks for this old man...he could not find him anywhere..

On the spot where the old man was....there was a Huge, Gigantic hole in the Ground...like a termonuclear war has exploeded there...and Jesus wonders...wow...that was only an Atom...Phew....I better not ask for more...

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:00:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: Wow, Eddy, that's a really powerful story!
Message:
Holy Mackerel!

Did that really happen!?

Just shows you how much we're all missing, I guess, huh?

Too much!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:30:39 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Holly Bass?
Message:
Far too much...and the good thing about this story Jim is that Jesus himself..I guess was thinking also Holly Mackerel...or is it Bass in the sea of Judia..I bet he was thinking..I am glad I wasnt that Old man.. hehehehe
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 12:16:20 (GMT)
From: TeddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Cult Realisation
Message:
I am not talking about cults...
Are you an atheist?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 14:22:01 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: TeddyTheTurtle
Subject: Not yet Teddy (nt)
Message:
but my faith's a bit thin on the ground nowadays
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 14:54:36 (GMT)
From: TeddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Not yet Teddy (nt)
Message:
Well that is understandable....
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 13:48:28 (GMT)
From: Ninja Turtle
Email: None
To: TeddyTheTurtle
Subject: heeeeeeeyaaaaaaa..!
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 14:56:53 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Ninja Turtle
Subject: heeeeeeeyaaaaaaa..!
Message:
Hi Turtle..howstricks....are you see bound or land bound....I just roam in the sands......
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 15:23:03 (GMT)
From: I am bound to me lard
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: gum ji li, he is sooo beautifull.
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:02:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: I am bound to me lard
Subject: Salam, you've got a 'name', use it (nt)
Message:
eeeee
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 04:34:36 (GMT)
From: News Alert
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Steve Hassan on Discovery Channel Tmrw Nite
Message:
FYI:

Steve Hassan will appear on the Discovery Channel special, 'On the Inside: Doomsday Cults,' on Thursday, August 10. Scheduled air times are 8pm and 11pm (eastern); the special lasts one hour.

Enjoy.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:42:49 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: News Alert
Subject: 'Thank YOU, Father'...very familiar (NT)
Message:
asdf
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 04:21:51 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Malibu land purchases
Message:
Here's some info on land purchases made by Seva Corp. for Maharaji's Malibu Marble Mansion:

Last Sale / Assessed /     Tax     Last Sale Date
 Amount      Value         Amount

2. 240,000 /   254,322 /  3,051.65 12-29-1995
3. 186,000 /   269,328 /  3,051.20 09-23-1988
4.       ? /   234,826 /  2,750.31 05-31-1978
5.       ? / 1,079,429 / 11,702.00 03-26-1991
7.       ? /    78,148 /  1,252.16 03-26-1991
8.       ? /    30,388 /    581.20 03-26-1991
9.  65,000 /    79,475 /  1,037.79 12-29-1995

             2,025,916 total assd val of land purchases

6.       ? / 5,264,979 / 55,492.57 05-31-1978 OLD house

--------------------------------------------------------------

2.
Name: SEVA CORPORATION OF AMERICA
Property Address: CA
Mailing Address: PO BOX 4029, MALIBU CA 90264
Legal Description: LAND OF MATTHEW KELLER IN THE RANCHO TOPANGA M
Lot Size (square feet or acreage): 213,880
Last Sale Document Number: 0002069443
Last Sale Date: 12-29-1995
Last Sale Amount: $240,000
Assessed Value: $254,322
Tax Amount: $3,051.65
Last Sale Transaction: F
Zoning: LCA1
Assessor's Parcel Number: 4470006016
3.
Name: SEVA CORP
Property Address: CA
Mailing Address: PO BOX 4029, MALIBU CA 90264
Legal Description: LAND OF MATTHEW KELLER IN THE RANCHO TOPANGA M
Lot Size (square feet or acreage): 84,942
Last Sale Document Number: 0001530561
Last Sale Date: 09-23-1988
Last Sale Amount: $186,000
Assessed Value: $269,328
Tax Amount: $3,051.20
Zoning: LCA1
Assessor's Parcel Number: 4470006021
4.
Name: SEVA CORPORATION OF AMERICA
Property Address: CA
Mailing Address: PO BOX 4029, MALIBU CA 90264
Legal Description: R F 534 FOR DESC SEE ASSESSOR'S MAPS POR OF LO
Lot Size (square feet or acreage): 106,210
Last Sale Date: 05-31-1978
Assessed Value: $234,826
Tax Amount: $2,750.31
Zoning: LCA1
Assessor's Parcel Number: 4470006031
5.
Name: SEVA CORP OF AMERICA
Property Address: CA
Mailing Address: PO BOX 4029, MALIBU CA 90264
Lot Size (square feet or acreage): 197,327
Assessed Value: $1,079,429
Tax Amount: $11,702.00
Zoning: LCA1
Assessor's Parcel Number: 4470006039
Last Transction Date w/o Dollar: 03-26-1991
6.
Name: SEVA CORPORATION OF AMERICA
Property Address: 31334 ANACAPA VIEW DR, MALIBU CA 90265
Mailing Address: PO BOX 4029, MALIBU CA 90264
Legal Description: POR OF LOT 15 R F 534 AND POR OF LOTS 13,22 AND
Percent Improved: 95.06%
Year Built: 1958
Lot Size (square feet or acreage): 208,217
Total Square Feet: 4,857
Number of Bedrooms: 2
Number of Baths: 4.0
Last Sale Date: 05-31-1978
Assessed Value: $5,264,979
Tax Amount: $55,492.57
Zoning: LCA1
Assessor's Parcel Number: 4470011051
7.
Name: SEVA CORP OF AMERICA
Property Address: CA
Mailing Address: PO BOX 4029, MALIBU CA 90264
Lot Size (square feet or acreage): 243,500
Assessed Value: $78,148
Tax Amount: $1,252.16
Zoning: LCA1
Assessor's Parcel Number: 4470011053
Last Transction Date w/o Dollar: 03-26-1991
Last Zero Dollar Transaction Doc Number: 0000427663
8.
Name: SEVA CORP OF AMERICA
Property Address: CA
Mailing Address: PO BOX 4029, MALIBU CA 90264
Legal Description: R.F 534 FOR DESC SEE ASSESSOR'S MAPS POR OF LO
Year Built: 1900
Lot Size (square feet or acreage): 92,783
Assessed Value: $30,388
Tax Amount: $581.20
Tract Number: 12971
Zoning: LCA1
Assessor's Parcel Number: 4470011054
Last Transction Date w/o Dollar: 03-26-1991
Last Zero Dollar Transaction Doc Number: 0000427663
9.
Name: SEVA CORP OF AMERICA
Property Address: CA
Mailing Address: PO BOX 4029, MALIBU CA 90264
Legal Description: POR OF LOT 15 R.F 534 AND POR OF LOT 24 TR NO 129
Lot Size (square feet or acreage): 72,310
Last Sale Document Number: 0002069444
Last Sale Date: 12-29-1995
Last Sale Amount: $65,000
Assessed Value: $79,475
Tax Amount: $1,037.79
Last Sale Transaction: F
Tract Number: 12971
Zoning: LCA1
Assessor's Parcel Number: 4470011055

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 09:56:19 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Malibu land purchases
Message:
C'mon, G, stop being a nitpicker. The only reason M is buying up all this land is to spread peace throughout it. I mean, why else would he be doing it, huh?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:45:02 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Silly me
Message:
Silly me, what was I thinking. In fact, now I realize why Maharaji hasn't brought Peace to Earth. It's all our fault, we didn't give him enough money so that he could BUY the entire planet. If he owned everything, then he could RULE. There's no war on the property he owns, is there?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 10:20:36 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Peace hasn't gone that far until now
Message:
if you count all the securities surrounding the marble palace !!!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 04:41:31 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: G, can you tell.....?
Message:
You are a whiz at this, G. Interesting information.

The most interesting thing I notice is the sale of Maharaji's house on 5/31/78 of Maharaji's house to Seva Corporation for $5.2 million. Who got the $5.2 million? Can you tell in the records whom Seva bought the house FROM on 5/31/78? I bet dimes to donuts it was Prem Pal Singh Rawat. The premies bought the house for Maharaji (the delapitaded one that Maharaji wrote a letter to the premies saying was so 'beautiful') in 1974. Then, in 1978, it was sold to Seva Corporation for $5.2 million. Somebody might have to actually go to the county Recorder to get that information? Anybody in So. Cal. up for that? It might be very interesting.

The Question: was the sale of Maharaji's own house to a shell corporation controlled by his cult-devotees, used as a way to transfer cash to the former Lord of the Universe, when it was DLM money (raised from the premies) who bought the house in the first place?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 16:37:42 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: And also...
Message:
The Question: was the sale of Maharaji's own house to a shell corporation controlled by his cult-devotees, used as a way to transfer cash to the former Lord of the Universe, when it was DLM money (raised from the premies) who bought the house in the first place?

And also, just to state the obvious, the money used to purchase the 'delapidated' house in 1974, according to Bob Mishler, came from tax-deductible donations to Elan Vital (then known as Divine Light Mission). The tax implications of Prem Pal Singh Rawat making a windfall off this is obvious, and would be of great interest to the IRS.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 04:59:12 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: G, can you tell.....?
Message:
The most interesting thing I notice is the sale of Maharaji's house on 5/31/78 of Maharaji's house to Seva Corporation for $5.2 million.

Yes, puzzling.

Who got the $5.2 million?

I don't know.

Can you tell in the records whom Seva bought the house FROM on 5/31/78?

That was all that I saw. I don't know off-hand if it is possible to get more info on-line or through the mail, that will have to be researched.

Somebody might have to actually go to the county Recorder to get that information?

That might be the case.

Anybody in So. Cal. up for that? It might be very interesting.

Indeed.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 05:34:32 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: LA real estate records
Message:
Check this out: Los Angeles Real Estate Records/Copies
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 04:32:58 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: G
Subject: so what's it for?
Message:
The house?
pretty cheap by CA standards. Is it possible to hide other stuff?
geez what a stupid question. I know.

but i was just checking out real estate in San Diego, considering moving. And my little cottage I loved up the hill from OB cost 300K.
So, I'm curious.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 05:06:51 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: so what's it for?
Message:
That looks to be the OLD house, before the bigger better mansion was built. You think $5,264,979 assessed value is cheap by CA standards? I don't think so.

Sure,it's possible to hide other stuff, but then you knew that.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 06:03:06 (GMT)
From: Selene submerged
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Added up wrong
Message:
No, $5,264,979 is not cheap by CA or any standards.

I have been staring at stats and working about 12 hours now on bs for work so I am a bit not focused on forum. Thanks G.

But to my credit I have purged a lot of users. How nice of me. Well, first they get the warning letter. ha. I could have written a better MRC letter anyday but never would have. ok over and out.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 22:13:55 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: total value
Message:
To clarify, $2,025,916 is the total assessed value of the additional land that was purchased after the old house and land was bought. The old and and initial land was previously assessed at $5,264,979. That was before the new house was built, which is worth far more. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, assessed values are significantly lower than actual values.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 22:33:36 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: G
Subject: assessed is lower
Message:
That I know from the reports we get from the assessor each year on our house.
It's assessed at least 20K or more lower than the realtor ( a non biased friend of long standing) told us it would sell for - market value.
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