Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 01:32:40 (GMT)
From: Aug 07, 2000 To: Aug 16, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Joe -:- The Experience of Darshan......... -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 20:48:23 (GMT)
__ CHR -:- The Experience of Darshan......... -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 15:23:16 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- it was also July and 110 in Tucson -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 01:07:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ CHR -:- it was also July and 110 in Tucson -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 13:26:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- it was also July and 110 in Tucson -:- Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 02:50:30 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- It only made sense when he was God -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 13:08:47 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- PVC miniskirt? -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 17:41:22 (GMT)
__ __ Rated-X -:- Same tastes (OT) -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 01:01:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Same tastes (OT) -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 14:20:26 (GMT)
__ Shroomananda -:- As Bob Dylan put it, 'You're Gonna Have To Serve -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 07:22:58 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Why does anyone HAVE to serve anyone? -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 20:29:42 (GMT)
__ __ CHR -:- As Bob Dylan put it, 'You're Gonna Have To Serve -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 15:32:56 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- 'Don't follow leaders, think for yourself.'(nt) -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 15:11:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shrromananda -:- 'My Sweet Lord' --George Harrison -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:35:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Those anonymous premies are sooo easy to rile.(nt) -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:13:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- What does my anonymity have to do with anything? -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:35:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Shroom says ANOTHER dumb-ass thing! -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:43:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Sorry, Jim. I stand corrected. I believe because -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 22:22:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- What does my anonymity have to do with anything? -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:41:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- By the way, Michael, you don't by chance know -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 07:59:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- By the way, Michael, you don't by chance know -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 18:42:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- As Doris Day once sang so melodiously, -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 23:53:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- As Doris Day once sang so melodiously, -:- Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 12:17:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- I don't live in Orange County any more! And I -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 22:19:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- You ARE deluded! NT -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 01:18:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- 'My Sweet Lord' --George Harrison -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 18:33:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- 'My Sweet Lord' -- you are square -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:48:32 (GMT)
__ __ buzz -:- As Bob Dylan put it, 'You're Gonna Have To Serve -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 12:28:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Good Point..... -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 18:58:11 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- The Experience of Darshan......... -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:48:04 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Thanks for that, Joe (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 00:09:54 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- The Experience of Darshan......... -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 22:26:32 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- I disagree about that - sub/dom is essensial -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 04:41:04 (GMT)
__ __ gErRy -:- I once had a girlfriend who... -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 03:47:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- uh gErRy your response is always a nice surprise -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 06:25:32 (GMT)
__ Paul -:- Except he wasn't a human being... -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 20:52:19 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Right.. -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 20:56:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- All I saw in darshan is socks with holes in them.. -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:57:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- All I saw in darshan is socks with holes in them.. -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 03:11:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- he always looked mean bored and disgusted -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 20:47:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Socks with lipstick smears! -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 03:27:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Lucky you were not a flight attendent.. -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 02:34:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marshall -:- Socks with lipstick smears! -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 15:32:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hi Marshall -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 20:43:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- what IS it with this lipstick thing? -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 04:05:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Marshall Selene and Katie -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 01:57:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Do you thing he got an err-.-ction..? -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 02:38:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Do you thing he got an err-.-ction..? -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 03:57:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- can you imagine? -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 04:02:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Did that happen often, I mean those premie -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 11:15:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- nothing keeps me focused on work unfortunately -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 21:42:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- just imagine rollingin that tub of lard...nt -:- Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 03:09:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- just imagine rollingin that tub of lard...nt -:- Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 14:24:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam : what is the -:- matter with you sb, do not you know he is god -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:39:52 (GMT)

Salam -:- The Divine Light Mission as a social organisation -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 18:52:27 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Part 2 -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 18:54:55 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Part 3 -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 18:56:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ buzz -:- Part 3 -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 05:15:41 (GMT)

Way -:- One of the fruits of Knowledge -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:22:40 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- One of the fruits of Knowledge -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:44:26 (GMT)

Paul -:- Discovery Channel Cult show -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 14:11:12 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Astrodome and the spaceship: same nutty taste -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:52:07 (GMT)
__ __ CHR -:- Astrodome and the spaceship: same nutty taste -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 15:40:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Astrodome and the spaceship: same nutty taste -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 02:04:08 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Discovery Channel Cult show -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 01:50:18 (GMT)
__ __ Paul -:- Consider words to arti -:- Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 14:05:05 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Discovery Channel Cult show -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:41:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Family trust -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 06:28:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Family trust -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 02:10:01 (GMT)

Salam -:- Something that I experienced -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 11:47:41 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- thankyou Salam -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:58:33 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Elekum (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 06:48:10 (GMT)
__ buzz -:- Something that I experienced -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 17:15:16 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- I told you this guy's a poet... -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 03:37:18 (GMT)

TeddyTheTurtle -:- Charles Ca,meron...are you reading this??? -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 11:25:18 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Charles Ca,meron...are you reading this??? -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 14:29:28 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Charles Ca,meron...are you reading this??? -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 17:00:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- love the part about his beautiful ex ballerina -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:50:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ CHR -:- Charles Ca,meron...are you reading this??? -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 15:51:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- DLM on the Resume -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:24:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Joan Apter also lies -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:28:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CHR -:- Joan Apter also lies -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 17:11:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- How About -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 18:52:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CHR -:- How About -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 00:55:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- we tried it but didnt inhale!-nt -:- Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 13:55:53 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Charles Ca,meron...are you reading this??? -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:52:29 (GMT)

Felicia -:- ex's ..current..and non's.. -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 06:33:44 (GMT)
__ SB -:- help! What was that? -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:48:43 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- help! What was that? -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 12:20:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- nicely put. -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:04:46 (GMT)
__ buzz -:- ex's ..current..and non's.. -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:00:39 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- literates, illiterates and premies -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 07:14:45 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- literates, illiterates and premies -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 07:43:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- It can matter, not always but sometimes -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:30:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Oliver -:- It can matter, not always but sometimes -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 21:35:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- apropos -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 23:41:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- apropos -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 00:25:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ buzz -:- literates, illiterates and premies -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 08:58:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Was I talking to you? (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:03:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Was I talking to you? -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 18:36:00 (GMT)

Jim -:- Yes, it's funny but no, I didn't make it up -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:24:41 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Yes, it's funny but no, I didn't make it up -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:31:53 (GMT)
__ Michael -:- Yes, it's funny but no, I didn't make it up -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:31:12 (GMT)
__ __ Bill -:- Michael and Shroomie -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:49:06 (GMT)

Joey -:- It's time for YOU to get the facts straight, O -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 02:00:39 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- It's time for YOU to get the facts straight, Joey -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 02:06:04 (GMT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- Sorry Joey - YOU to get the facts straight.... -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 11:31:52 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- I received phone calls frequently asking for money -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 17:24:46 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Where are you sweetheart? (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:49:53 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- I must have only dreamt that.......... -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 09:48:56 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Well, Mel, gonna face your critics..? -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 21:11:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Well, Mel, gonna face your critics..?...sure Nigel -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 13:40:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- TOTAL empty, stupid reasoning!! (nt) -:- Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 14:26:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Hey Nigel, lets not forget SB.... -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 21:34:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- You're right Joey - Selene and Hal too... -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:18:17 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Bullshit, Mel -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 18:51:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Bullshit, Mel -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 01:17:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- At my Knowledge session, I gave him a card -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:51:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- At my Knowledge session, I gave him a card -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 03:13:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That is SOOOOO funny, Shroom! -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 18:21:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Theres giving money then there getting took -:- Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 02:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- solicitations for Maharaji -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 18:33:56 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- What are you saying? -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:01:06 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- Mel, please don't hurt me !! -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 14:56:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roumers have it that EV's -:- lawyers are on their to shut you down..nt -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:02:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- re : lawyers are on their to shut you down..nt -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:15:00 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Well, what can ya say ?? ::)) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:41:00 (GMT)
__ sam -:- It's time for YOU to get the facts straight, O -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 02:19:56 (GMT)

Premieji -:- As the sun sets over Jordan -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 01:52:50 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- So, Now that I've imagined you naked... -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 17:12:26 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Dear slug -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 12:43:49 (GMT)
__ SB -:- As the sun sets over Jordan -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:03:40 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- that is the funniest post :) -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 18:03:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- I did not post that! -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 20:15:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- which post didn't you post sb? I know you aren't -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 20:22:40 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- ...may it also set over your ignorance -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 04:13:57 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Joey my compliments -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:21:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- JM, read Hal's post! -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:06:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Thanks Hal, although.... -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:09:18 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- The sun is rising there now actually -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 02:11:07 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- But perhaps you are a joke -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 02:38:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- too familiar...problems like shp -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 05:00:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael -:- Very nice post, bill. nt -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:06:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- I agree bill -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 03:06:22 (GMT)

Oliver -:- to Jim. My latest e-mail from my Psychologist -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:04:44 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- to Jim. My latest e-mail from my Psychologist -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:35:41 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- Further e-mail from my Psychologist -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 02:28:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Fuck your psychologist, Oliver -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:11:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Tourette's syndrome -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 20:29:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Tourette's syndrome -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 06:51:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- I apologize. -:- Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 17:44:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks, G. Always a pleasure (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 00:04:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- You're welcome, you are a scholar and a gentleman -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 00:41:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Then you may pay me the courtesy....... -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:43:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sure -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:27:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Fucked up the end, too late to change, gotta go! -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:33:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oh my! -:- Fucked up the end, too late to change, gotta go! -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 18:21:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, you should prick up your ears! (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:46:52 (GMT)

Carol -:- on our interpretations/mis-interpretations! -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 19:59:20 (GMT)
__ cq -:- carpe diem??? -:- Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:46:57 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- your insights were mine also -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 20:25:45 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- your insights were mine also -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 20:49:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- it's on the way Salam -:- Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 20:51:12 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 20:48:23 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Experience of Darshan.........
Message:
As a premie, I probably had 'darshan' (the process of filing by Maharaji and kissing his feet) about 25 times, maybe more, maybe less. It is just too nauseating to try to count.

For at least the last 5 years I was a premie, I experienced nothing positive at all in darshan, except feeling ridiculous, noticing how greasy and bored Maharaji looked, how very soft the cushy the carpets were, how weird that blue 'tunnel of love' we walked through was, and how bizarre some of the music Maharaji had playing. [I remember there was a weird song that was a top-40 forgettable song going something like 'I Am So Into You...something.' Very weird.]

Anyhow, there were a couple of times that I felt kind of 'high' after darshan, in the very beginning of my time as a premie, although the first time was nothing, but the second, if I remember right, I felt high. I think there were a number of reasons for this.

First, darshan was built up in my head as a very big deal, and everyone was just so excited about it. So, I kind of worked myself up for it and there is a certain self-fulfilling element to that. I think that was the main thing that happened.

But the more important reason is that Darshan is basically a process of submission. It is NOT a process of giving love and respect, because that requires, in normal human relationships, a relative equality of the two parties, giving and taking. No, darshan is a ritual of TOTAL submission of one human being to another, out of the belief that one human being is better, higher, and has power of the other. I think this belief was often interpreted as 'love.' And this was basically, what premies believed about Maharaji.

And let's face it, submission can feel good. I hate to bring up the subject of sex here, but I think it's the same process. In sexual relations, there is often strong feelings of power and submission, both of which can be very exciting and create a certain 'high.' I think it was no different in darshan, there just wasn't usually the sexual component.

Feeling like you were submitting, and giving up power and control can create a 'high' even if you are doing it as part of a ritual. And I think it can be so powerful that people can faint if they are worked up enough about it.

And I think for me, darshan became a nothing, boring, stupid experience, because I was resisting, at least on some level, and I wasn't submitting anymore, so I didn't have the experience of submission. Also, by that point it was an old routine and boring by that point as well. The only difference was, I felt guilty and defective for not having the powerful experience of darshan you were supposed to have, because, I believed as part of the premie programming, I wasn't devoted enough, that I was listening to my mind, or as Maharaji puts it, my 'doubtmaker.'

But submitting yourself to another human being is basically destructive to yourself, no matter how good it feels. It's destructive to your own self-worth, to your own individuality, power and vitality. And it's disgusting to do that, no matter how good it feels. Because premies aren't just role-playing, they really ARE trying to submit.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 15:23:16 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Experience of Darshan.........
Message:
I had some good experiences and some lousy ones. At Tuscon I got carried to the recovery room. A month or so later in Philadelphia, absolutely nothing happened, except a bit of self torture about nothing happening. Soon after that I got to do security in the darshan room in some of the festivals. A few of these were right in front of him, catching the ones who collapsed.
I suspect it was all a group hype thing. I don't quite know how it all works, but people often get high at group gatherings- it can even happen at football matches. We were all incredibly focused on this one person, much the same as fans at a rock concert with an idolised hero. I've heard performers talking about the incredible rush they can get from being in front of an adoring audience and how they and the audience all share in a high together. Trouble was, we believed it was all M's doing. I guess he did too.
A few years ago I was telling a premie aquaintance about the experience in Tuscon and other festivals, and she responded,'How could you leave him after having those experiences?' It dawned on me then how narrow and limited our perception of life had been as premies. I mean, even if I regarded those experiences as real and valid ( which I don't), what a shallow, empty, directionless and self defeating thing to base one's life on.
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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 01:07:41 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: it was also July and 110 in Tucson
Message:
I think we were all delirious. I got sicker than hell.
I'm just kidding with you about what happened to you, but I DID get so sick from having to wait around in the sun and walk all over that large community center. That's the festival I had the fight at the door with M's swat-team-wannabee security guards.
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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 13:26:41 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: it was also July and 110 in Tucson
Message:
Mmm, I didn't think of that one- maybe it was the heat. The security was crazy at Tuscon-run by a very intense guy who later became an initiator. I can't remember his name at the moment. They charged a crowd of demonstators at one stage who had nothing to with the programme but just happened to be at the outside of the convention centre-there must have been Gov't buildings next door or whatever.
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Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 02:50:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: it was also July and 110 in Tucson
Message:
They charged a crowd of demonstators at one stage who had nothing to with the programme but
just happened to be at the outside of the convention centre-there must have been Gov't buildings next door or whatever.

oh to take back the clock and be who I am now.

I'd give anything to know the assholes charged. Not only are there government buildings all over, but the main police station is right now the block too bad they didn't see it happening.

The security leader wasn't McDermott was it? He was always a big deal in Phoenix and became an initiator later. Intense wasn't really how I'd describe him, but then I always found most of those guys to be weenies when actually contronted.

My ex-husband got banned from the community center after he helped coordinate and lead the stage 'service' for that thing and the premies ripped a very expensive opera curtain and generally trashed the main exhibit hall and never would answer or compensate in anyway later.

Not that I feel to bad for him. His ego was so huge from having that assignment/service he was insufferable. Meanwhile we had given all our money for the festival so our electricity (read AIR conditioning!!) got turned off during that damned festival.

Nice.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 13:08:47 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It only made sense when he was God
Message:
When we believed that Maharaji was God on Earth, it did make sense to bow down before him. Mind you, I could not even then bring myself to actually kiss his feet. But I did touch them with my forehead. Kissing seems too sexual to me to actually do it to someone I don't feel a sexual thing with.

But as soon as Maharaji stops being God, darshan becomes an obscenity. It is ridiculous to worship a mere fellow human being in this way unless of course (for me) she has stilleto heels, a PVC mini-skirt... and I'd better stop before I get too carried away.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 17:41:22 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: PVC miniskirt?
Message:
PVC? Do you mean polyvinylcholride? That's what PVC means to me. They use it to make pipes, but not clothes that I am aware of. BTW, it's very damagint to the environment.

Is that what you mean?

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 01:01:48 (GMT)
From: Rated-X
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Same tastes (OT)
Message:
Hey Sir Dave we have similar tastes as far as stilleto heels, a PVC mini-skirt...
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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 14:20:26 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Rated-X
Subject: Same tastes (OT)
Message:
Do you wear them or do you like them on other people? Depends if you're a guy or gal, eh. If you wear them and you're a gal, you already have my submission, guaranteed!
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 07:22:58 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: As Bob Dylan put it, 'You're Gonna Have To Serve
Message:
Somebody'. So submitting to your husband or wife is destructive to yourself? How about submitting to your boss? Is that destructive to yourself? Come on Joey, just about every relationship in the world has some aspect of submission in it. It's no different with Maharaji. I've only had the opportunity to have darshan a few times but I felt like it was a really special way to pay my respects to someone that I love and respect. Someone who knows something and showed me how to know it too. I am grateful to have someone on this planet who knows. I look on darshan as a very simple exchange of a feeling between a student and a teacher. To my ego it might seem like it's destructive. But not to my heart. And I would never consider kissing another man's feet. Except his.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 20:29:42 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Why does anyone HAVE to serve anyone?
Message:
Dylan is badly wrong here, and the whole notion of service as something that is required of human beings, or essential in some way (as opposed to voluntary acts of kindness or reciprocal help) is just plain dumb. Sheer grovelling stupidity.

But the idea sort of makes sense when you're in a cult, I seem to remember - and premies often cited the Dylan lyric from the satsang chair. ('It may be the Devil, or it may be the Lord' indeed... That wasn't the same Dylan who who did 'Chimes of Freedom', surely?)

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 15:32:56 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: As Bob Dylan put it, 'You're Gonna Have To Serve
Message:
The sort of submission Joe is talking about is an unhealthy one. Its not a momentary thing of submitting to a boss when he asks you to do something, but a surrender of ones will and own judgement to another-a submission of your life to another human being, in the belief that he somehow knows better than you what is best for you. And this is without him even knowing you personally.
Apart from that, those darshan events were under very staged conditions. M wasn't always quite as glamorous outside of festival situations.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 15:11:40 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: 'Don't follow leaders, think for yourself.'(nt)
Message:
Jim Cuddy
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:35:18 (GMT)
From: Shrromananda
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: 'My Sweet Lord' --George Harrison
Message:
Knowledge IS thinking for yourself. You never received a GIFT from anybody? And really APPRECIATED that gift? And was very GRATEFUL to the person that gave you that gift? This has nothing to do with following leaders, sweetheart. But you would never know that because you 'followed' the advice of the 'leaders' who post here and didn't receive the gift. Yeah, you THOUGHT for yourself, didn't you? I guess that makes you an expert, doesn't it?
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:13:39 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Those anonymous premies are sooo easy to rile.(nt)
Message:
rrr
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:35:01 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: What does my anonymity have to do with anything?
Message:
If you want my real name, why don't you go to the event on Sunday and ask someone there? There are several people in Orange County who know my real name. And if you want to know what a premie is, why don't you ask Maharaji for Knowledge? Then you'll know what a premie is. And what Knowledge is. Until then, you may be mistaken about your beliefs. I believe because I know. What is your belief based on?
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:43:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Shroom says ANOTHER dumb-ass thing!
Message:
Shroom,

You really, really crack me up. Here's the latest reason:

I believe because I know.

Socrates defined 'knowledge' as 'justified, true belief'. Do you accept that definition? I do. I think it's great. Do you have a better one? I'd be happy to hear it but I don't think you'll come up with anything more succint, complete or as good. This one's worked for a few thousand years.

So you see the problem huh, Shroom? Belief is an ingredient of knowledge. It can't be proven by same. That makes no sense. Do you care about making sense? Ever?

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 22:22:51 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, Jim. I stand corrected. I believe because
Message:
I've experienced it. And I still do. How about you? Do you feel better? I guess I'm not perfect. I still make dumb-ass remarks sometimes. You ever make one? Probably not. But I may be mistaken in my belief.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:41:35 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: What does my anonymity have to do with anything?
Message:
You live in Orange County and you say bad things about Panamá? You really are a piece of work!
Your anonymity is a problem because you harp and pick at others, at their professions and their grammar, yet no one knows anything about you except your total gratitude for that free gift from some pilot.
Be brave, come out of your closet. Tell us who you are, and don't spend so much time worrying about those who refused to fall into your guru's clutches. Be free! Come learn to use your brain!! You've nothing to lose but your chains!!!
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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 07:59:56 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: By the way, Michael, you don't by chance know
Message:
the anonymous 'ex' premie who posted as Mickey the Pharisee harping and picking at me, do you? You know, the poverty-stricken celibate person who gave away his trust fund to Maharaji. He sounds like a real nice guy otherwise but since he posted anonymously I really can't have a dialogue with him like I can you. Of course, even if I knew his name and where he lived and his occupation like I know yours, I wouldn't really KNOW him now, would I? So never mind. He can keep his anonymity. And I'll keep mine. If that's all right with you.
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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 18:42:34 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: By the way, Michael, you don't by chance know
Message:
Hey, Mickey the Pharisee is a great guy and has been a part of this site for many years. I know that you are humour-impaired, and that you are new to this site, so you couldn't recognise that the stories Mickey wrote in his witty piece contained elements of several ex-premies stories; Mickey certainly wasn't claiming to be a starving celibate who lost his trust fund to the evil clutches of the so-called Lard of the Universe.
Not only are you anonymous, but you refuse to answer any questions directly. You are less than honest.
Oh, I'M Mickey the Pharisee. How's that for honesty.
Really, Shroomananda, we are not going to really be able to communicate. We don't like each other. You seem to see me as a wicked priest, leading people astray, preventing them from experiencing the true knowledge, while I see you as a brain-washed person who will someday be extremely embarrassed by his posts once he leaves the cult. Perhaps we should just avoid each other.
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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 23:53:47 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: As Doris Day once sang so melodiously,
Message:
'Que sera, que sera.' Sorry to have offended you, Mickey! And I don't really have anything against Panama. Premies live there too, don't they? I hope your faith brings you that 'peace that surpasses understanding.' To me, Maharaji makes a lot of sense when he says that our most important quality as human beings is our ability to feel. Pretty astute for a pilot, don't you THINK?
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Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 12:17:29 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: As Doris Day once sang so melodiously,
Message:
Non-astute are you that needs a gressy Lard bastard teacher to tell you that!
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 22:19:07 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: I don't live in Orange County any more! And I
Message:
am free, thank you, Preacher. I can see you're concerned about me. I'm concerned about you, too! Break those chains of ignorance. Come back to the true Knowledge. The doors always open! Even for Preachers. You don't even have to give up your preaching job to practice Knowledge and listen to the Master. Isn't that great?
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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 01:18:02 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: You ARE deluded! NT
Message:
And not very bright
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 18:33:14 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Shrromananda
Subject: 'My Sweet Lord' --George Harrison
Message:
But Maharaji is not the Lord and as I wrote up above, darshan only made sense when he was supposed to be the Lord. It is an obscenity to bow down before Maharaji now that we know he was only pretending to be the Lord in order to get money off us.

I also Like that song by George Harrison and consider it one of the all time great songs ever made but to apply it to Maharaji is a big mistake. Maharaji is not the Lord. He is a liar though and a pretty inconsistant one at that.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:48:32 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Shrromananda
Subject: 'My Sweet Lord' -- you are square
Message:
The gift IS giving as a gift on this site; the four K techniques are just four old yoga techniques. Don't you know?

Do you, like I did, believe that the techniques don't work without maharachi's 'GRACE'?

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 12:28:08 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: As Bob Dylan put it, 'You're Gonna Have To Serve
Message:
i used to have a lot of teachers at school who knew things and taught me,i had a certain respect for them but i certainly wouln'dt kiss their feet.i might say thankyou and then be on my way.mind you.if they then said ,look for this stuff i,ve taught you to work you're gonna have to follow me around and worship me and send me gifts and just basically give up your whole fucking life otherwise it won't work then i'd certainly be a little suspicious,but i'd forgotten m doesn't say that anymore does he?
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 18:58:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: Good Point.....
Message:
Isn't it highly suspect when someone says that you don't really get what they are supposedly 'freely' giving to you unless you are grateful to that person? Isn't that an inherent contradiction?
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:48:04 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Experience of Darshan.........
Message:
You're onto something with that Joe. I agree that in an emotionally safe loving sexual relationship, submission can be a good feeling, that is ONLY is it is reciprocated. I mean that the roles need to be fluid and not fixed the way that the 'Master'- 'devotee' relationship is.

There is no fluidity in the dynamic between guru and disciple except in some token way like when M 'graces' his devotees with some little gesture that makes all the premies swoon. But even there his superiority is always implied. It's very sick, the whole thing and I am really SICKENED that I was ever involved in it!!

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 00:09:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks for that, Joe (nt)
Message:
ddddd
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 22:26:32 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Experience of Darshan.........
Message:
This part:

'But submitting yourself to another human being is basically
destructive to yourself, no matter how good it feels. It's
destructive to your own self-worth, to your own
individuality, power and vitality. And it's disgusting to do
that, no matter how good it feels.'

Very good point, cult related or not.

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 04:41:04 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: I disagree about that - sub/dom is essensial
Message:
We sometimes have to submit ourselves totally to another person or people. In the medical field it is essensial that we completely surrender ourselves to their care. When we have sugery, for instance, we are completely and utterly dependant upon the skill and good sense of the doctors and medical team. If we cannot trust them, we cannot surrender ourselves to their care.

Also, domination and submission are part of most relationships. We have to play dominant roles sometimes as well as submissive ones. If you run a business without being dominant, nothing will get done.

In personal relationships, the sub/dom aspect allows people to trust each other more. We all enjoy playing sub or dom. Also, we surrender ourselves to the other person.

To give a crude example, if you let someone give head, how can you be sure they won't bite it off? Or how can we be sure our partner won't cut it off during the night when we are asleep. We are surrendered to the people who are closest to us and they to us. That is trust.

Learning how and when to be submissive and dominant can only enhance our lives and our relationships. However, that is a very different kettle of fish to bowing down in front of an Indian man who we are not close to and who has tricked us into believing he is God.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 03:47:02 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I once had a girlfriend who...
Message:
'But submitting yourself to another human being is basically
destructive to yourself, no matter how good it feels. It's
destructive to your own self-worth, to your own
individuality, power and vitality. And it's disgusting to do
that, no matter how good it feels.'

Well youknow, there's always the exception to the rule.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 06:25:32 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: uh gErRy your response is always a nice surprise
Message:
But I didn't write the post.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 20:52:19 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Except he wasn't a human being...
Message:
we were were submitting ourselves to the living incarnation of god-the lord of the universe.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 20:56:06 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Right..
Message:
Well, right, a human being who was the incarnation of god. True.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:57:19 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: All I saw in darshan is socks with holes in them..
Message:
What about that thing that he does when a new premie comes by, you know, put your hand behind your ear if you are a newie, then he flick his hand in front of his mouth, what was that supposed to be? If it is important, how is he going to do it on a video taped knowledge session?

Salam

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 03:11:32 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: All I saw in darshan is socks with holes in them..
Message:
Wasn't that called 'holy breath' or something? He never did it for me. He looked full of disdain when I went through the darshan tunnel.Like he was thinking 'I'd rather be shitting on my golden toilet right now, anywhere but here.' I must admit thought that I had some kind of experience when he went by on his little wagon thingie in Kissimee. He looked so golden to me. And with that one thought 'he looks golden' I surrendered my life! Shit, think what George Hamilton could do with his perpetual tan?
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 20:47:50 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: he always looked mean bored and disgusted
Message:
Which is just about how I felt as well after driving in crowded cars with screaming kids, waiting in lines for hours. Getting pushed around by asshole security guards.
Getting the look of horror as I sat next to devout devotees with my 2 toddlers, only to jump up and put them into child care, never sure I'd ever find them again.
M you think YOU were bored and disgusted.
And yet we did it, over and over expecting different results.
ah... the memories.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 03:27:21 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Socks with lipstick smears!
Message:
Maybe I was always in the wrong line or something, but it seemed like there was ALWAYS lipstick on his socks. I never got holy breath either. My only 'divine' experience was when he looked directly at me when I was about 10 people away from him (I was REALLY blond back then, but of course never thought that that might be the reason!)

Hi Helen!

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 02:34:43 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Lucky you were not a flight attendent..
Message:
mn
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 15:32:37 (GMT)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Socks with lipstick smears!
Message:
I've said this before here a longtime ago, but... I remember going through darshan when I was a young kid ten or so. I was a total non believer who was only there because of my pshyco premie mother practically making me go, anyway right when I approached MJ I looked right into his eyes and I could see right through him, he was nothing and he could tell that I knew he was just a hustler, then he looked away angrily as I moved along.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 20:43:53 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: Hi Marshall
Message:
Really good to see you here. Yes, I remember that story well, and I think it's a very good one.

Hope you are doing well!
Katie

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 04:05:32 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: what IS it with this lipstick thing?
Message:
HA!
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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 01:57:47 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Darshan Dud stories
Subject: Marshall Selene and Katie
Message:
Marshall that is quite a story. Out of the minds of babes, eh? And here we were sold all that garbage about how children, who are so innocent, are able to see the true mirror of Maharaji. You probably said it all with your eyes and he was scared of you! Honestly though what was your thought process as a 10 year old? Did you see the whole trip hurting your mom?

Selene, I can't imagine having toddlers and going through festival hell. Katie, I think M probably did get distracted by all the pretty young thangs who walked by and kissed his feet. Weird huh?

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 02:38:47 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Do you thing he got an err-.-ction..?
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 03:57:09 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Do you thing he got an err-.-ction..?
Message:
It's so hard for me to see M as a sexual being, you know? I always see him as a 4 year old in Italian suits. A pompous 4 year old who wants all the power but none of the responsibility.

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 04:02:34 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: can you imagine?
Message:
Never!! All those times the premie women I knew would swoon and talk in our little secret satsangs without the boys about how they would do it in a heartbeat with M, I'd just never ever ever even be able to fake the conversation.
And funniest or saddest part I felt that I was so superficial to feel that way, that all I was looking at was his pudgy little body and his mannerisms and greasy hair instead of his godhood.

I'll bet a lot of those women STILL would...
they just don't talk about it as much now. Not to me anyway, that is for sure.

I'm still purging. No not eating disorder, cleaning up conferencing shit. Making up for work that someone else never did for 3 years. Fun. Gives me an excuse to be on forum forever.
hmmmm.....

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 11:15:16 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Did that happen often, I mean those premie
Message:
women saying that, do you know any that actually did it. Tell us. Gosip gosip gosip. Keeps you focous at work.
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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 21:42:08 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: nothing keeps me focused on work unfortunately
Message:
but yes there was a lot of sexual insinuation about M among the female premies I know. Gross huh?
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Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 03:09:22 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: just imagine rollingin that tub of lard...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 14:24:27 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: just imagine rollingin that tub of lard...nt
Message:
He could lose some pounds if he gets off his ass and do some real work, the ugly parasite!
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:39:52 (GMT)
From: Salam : what is the
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: matter with you sb, do not you know he is god
Message:
nice to see sb, where have you been, did you get my e-mail with the Spanish translation?

luv
Salam

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 18:52:27 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Divine Light Mission as a social organisation
Message:
Someone requested this information few weeks ago. Reference to this article appears in the EV/DLM paper. This is the whole article as it appeared in the Sociological Review.
I have not included the reference, but if anyone wants them, that is extra,

(errors are to be blamed on the scanner)

THE DIVINE LIGHT MISSION AS A SOCIAL ORGANIZATION

Maeve Price
Title of periodical : The Sociological Review
year of publication: 1979
volume : 27
Author of Article : Price, Maeve
Title of article : (see above)

The aim of this paper is to analyse the religious group known as The Divine Light Mission from the point of view of its
organizational structure.It is apparent that organizational studies of religious groups require some justification, since fashion dictates that the focus of concern today is on ‘religiosity’ or the privatized beliefs of individuals2 Nevertheless, as Bittner has suggested, whatever the followers of a ‘radical’ religious group happen to believe, because their beliefs contradict the everyday, commonsense view of the world, some form of organization is required ‘to maintain both the purity of those beliefs and the integrity of the movement.3 In the case of the Divine Light Mission (DLM) the beliefs and practices of the followers and the sect’s goals of transmitting a niillenarian message and winning recruits are sufficient cause for at least a rudimentary organization.
It is proposed that without organization DLM remains an amor-phous constituent of the ‘cultic milieu’.4 Whereas with organization it is moving towards the status of a sect. Given the problematic status of the concepts ‘cult’ and ‘sect’ it is necessary to select a working definition for the purpose of this discussion. The term ‘sects is employed, following Roy WalIis’s example, to refer to a religious collectivity whose central characteristic is ‘epistemological author-itarianism’ rather than an ‘epistemological individualism’ which characterizes a ‘cult’.5 Without doubt the beliefs of members of DLM (known as premies) derive from the dictates of their leader, indeed the knowledge they possess is his knowledge, though many adherents hold a more idiosyncratic position, accepting only parts of the belief system and choosing the degree to which they conforM to accepted practice. This strain towards ‘epistemological individualism’ may be one of the reasons why DLM has not achieved full sect status. However, whilst there are cultic tendencies in DLM, further useful implications follow Wallis’s distinction, all of which tend to strengthen the sect’s ability to cope with survival problems: the vague boundaries of the cult are clarified by an absolute distinction between those who ‘belong and those who do not; there is a finite membership; and, moreover, far from the belief system suffering from vagueness of definition, ‘sects lay claim to possess unique and privileged access to the truth or salvation’.’ It is because DLM conforms to the definition outlined above that DLM is regarded as a religious sect. The kind of organization, however, which emerges will depend on a number of constraints which limit the scope of a leader’s prescriptions. It is the thesis of this paper that the Divine Light Mission as a social organization is a product of a number of analytically distinct sets of forces which impinge on any ‘ideal’ structure which the leader might devise. It cannot be stated, as WalIis claimed of the Children of God? that ‘the development of the movement as a social structure has been altogether defined and directed by •the leader’s specification Judging from what the leader of DLM has declared .to his followers is clear that he would like the mission to function without any form organization at all.’ At the same time, in order to spread his mesa and retain and expand his following he has had to accept the necessi of organization. Nevertheless it does not follow that the leader h either a clear definition of the type of organization he desires or he possesses the requisite skills to achieve his goals. In particular, leader has to take into account the social characteristics of his ing who will also have attitudes concerning the existence of and fo of organization. Nevertheless it does not follow that the leader Ii determine events and is frequently having to respond to situatic which he could not have deliberately planned. This is particularly case where the mission’s financial problems are concerned. Ot] social forces, too, restrict the freedom of the leader to manipulate movement as he might wish.
It is thus suggested that the following constraints have, in comb’ ation, determined the kind of organizational structure which DL possesses and its success as a ‘radical’ religious movement:
1 The beliefs and practices of the devotees;
2 The social composition and attitudes of the following;
3 The leader’s degree of competence;
4 The wider cultural context within which the mission functions.
Before commencing a detailed discussion of the above factors, brief account of the mission’s history will be presented as it is factor which is inextricably linked with the four constraints set oi above. The focus will be on Britain, although the mission has a wc wide following, with its headquarters, since 1971, in the United States.

History of the Mission

DLM was founded in India in the 1930S by the father of the present leader, who became the Satguru, or Perfect Master, at the age of eight, in 1966 when his father died. At this time the Indian DLM claimed a following of millions and was one of many minor Hindu sects. In 1969 the new leader, Guru Maharaj Ji, sent one of his mahatmas, or a ‘realised soul’, to Britain as a missionary to win converts for his master. By the time Maharaj Ji, then thirteen years old, arrived in England with his mother, Mata Ji, and his three ‘brothers, collectively known as the Holy Family, some two hundred young hippies had taken ‘knowledge’ and become devotees of Guru Maharaj Ji. The year was 1971. The so-called counter-culture was falling apart and thousands of young people having experienced hallucinogenic drugs were now turning to Eastern mysticism and occultism for answers to man’s existential questions and for stability in their lives. It was an oppor-tune moment for DLM to appear on the scene and, by the summer of 1973, the mission claimed to have a following of 8,ooo devotees, or premies, in Britain.
From the small beginning of one mahatma in London and a handful of premies, the mission grew, with up to half a dozen mahatmas at any one time giving knowledge, the establishment of Divine Inform-ation Centres in most major towns and cities and the setting up of about forty ashrams (designated preniie households) •throughout Britain by the end of r9732 Ashrams played an important part in the mission’s structure. Here premies had chosen to live in small com-munal households, under vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. In practice they were under the direct supervision of head office and acted as cadres for the whole movement.
The actual formal organization of DLM was set up in Britain in 1971 and it was registered as a charity with Mats Ji acting as regent for her son, Maharaj Ji, who was still a minor, and with half English and half Indian premies on the ‘board of directors. In the early days Mata Ji was unquestionably the power behind the throne. She was supported by her three other sons, who were all senior to Maharaj ji, and by a number of Indian mahatmas who helped to organize the mission in the West. Among these was Ashokanand who was the main organizing force in Britain. It was he, together with self-selected leading British premies, nearly all with University backgrounds,10 who tried to get the mission firmly established, organize the ashrams as examples of spiritual living for all premies and seekers and set about the task of proselytizing the vast numbers of potential recruits.
The mission bought its own printing press and produced its own newspaper, pamphlets and leaflets. Meetings were put on in public halls all over the country in addition to the larger events, the festivals, where Maharaj Ji and members of the Holy Family gave holy dis-course (satsang). A special branch of the mission, known as the World Peace Corps (WPC) was established, initially to provide protection for Maharaj Ji. However, it soon became the main agent for organizing meetings or ‘programmes’ and securing financial support and it ventured into all kinds of supposedly money-making enterprises st
as transport, building and the distribution of vegetarian food
certain Indian products such as incense. Many believed the missiot could become self-supporting with these businesses but they were rut by untrained .though enthusiastic voluntary labour and soon accumu lated enormous debts. Many of these debts are still being paid.
Nineteen seventy-three was the peak year for the mission’s activiti both in Britain and ‘the United States, when two major festivals wet organized to rally the faithful and bring in new recruits. In Briu there was the Festival of Love at Alexandra Palace which thousands of premies and seekers, and where the unpredictab behaviour of Maharaj Ji antagonized ‘the British press who had waite for hours for his scheduled appearance. In the United States, a festi’ to announce the start of the millennium was held in the HotAstrodome, Tens, and from the financial point of view it wa disaster for which the American mission is still paying.1’ In Britain, Alexandra Palace marked the turning point of the mission’s fortut As one leading and deeply involved premie expressed it,
For over two and a half years until they had the programme it was a very strong movement In that timc. C to have joined and there must have been nearly a thousam. workers for the mission, it was completely incredible; it had a medium to large size company and was doing amazing things.
was completely inexperienced and then after that [Alexandra there was nothing to do. Everyone was saying: well, what are we Why are we here? We’ve got all this set up; we could build a u across the Thames; we could do anything—I mean there was just no to do. It was just literally—there were all these people with nothing do, all set up, all geared up to, you know, spread the knowledge, build this, to build that, but there was nothing to do. It has grown to quickly and the expansion didn’t really have a foundation.’12

A large membership had grown up very rapidly but the organizers had no clear idea where to lead the following, nor did they have the financial resources to maintain so many full-time workers.’3 The ashrams which should have provided a sound financial basis for the mission’s operations were not even self-financing and had to be sup-ported from funds.
The mission moved into a recessionary phase which lasted until the Autumn of 1975. It gradually contracted its public activities, shed its unprofitable and burdensome possessions and even disbanded the ashrams, the last of which closed down in September 1976.
During the next two-year phase of recession a number of events occurred which contributed to the weakening of the mission in terms of loss of members and decline in recruitment.’4 The most significant of these events were the marriage of Guru Maharaj Ji, in May 1974, and the subsequent ‘Holy Family Row’ when a struggle for control took place between Mats Ji, supported by her eldest son, and Guru Maharaj Ji, supported by his Western devotees as well as by a strong following in India. Details of this struggle are discussed below to illustrate the degree of competence Maharaj Ji displayed as a leader. At this point it is sufficient to state that Maharaj Ji emerged as the acknowledged leader and satguru with, ostensibly, complete control over the mission in Britain and elsewhere outside India.
Alter September 1975, when Maharaj Ji spoke to a gathering of British premies in the Blooms~bury Hotel, London, leading premies claim that the mission began ‘to revive and certainly there was a marked increase in morale amongst prerntes.
The mission’s history can be seen as passing through three phases:
the first, one of rapid expansion when the mission was deliberately seeking recruits, a conversionist phase; the second, a phase of conflict and recession; and the third, or current phase, when the mission has turned away from the world and is concentrating on the morale of its members and their salvation. This can be regarded as the introversion-ist phase.’5 The mission no longer makes any attempt to publicize its activities or to mount recruitment campaigns. Though newcomers are welcomed the stress is on the practices involved with being a premie and on achieving personal salvation within the community of other premies rather than on any campaign to convert the rest of the world. This reversal in orientation from conversionist to introversion-ist has many consequences for the organizational structure of the movement as well as for the possibility of expansion. In particular, a far simpler structure is required and the rate of recruitment is likely to be very slow.

Beliefs and Practices

Essentially, premies believe that the key to understanding them-selves, the gateway to happiness, love and that peace of mind ‘which surpasseth understanding’ lies in meditating on the knowledge of Guru Maharaj Ji, and that this knowledge is there inside each human being. Only Maharaj Ji has the key to it and only his appointed mahattnas or initiators may give Maharaj Ji’s knowledge. This crucial fact that knowledge may only be revealed by Maharaj Ji, legitimates the leader’s supremacy to the believers and ensures that seekers achieve these benefits from a single source. This immediately creates a bond between those who have knowledge and sets them apart from those without. This membership ‘bond is an essential preconditio for organization. Two other requisites cement the collectivity premies into a social organization. Not only are all premies to practise meditation on the knowledge, they are also required to service and attend satsang. Service is concerned with any kind endeavour which promotes the work of Maharaj Ji and his missiot All officials and volunteers at functions are doing service; any pren who earns money to donate to the mission or to Maharaj J’i is doi service; even work done with a loving and giving heart is so regardt Satsang literally means ‘holy discourse’ or ‘the company of tru Satsang takes place whenever a premie speaks to someone else ‘from within his heart’ about the experience of knowledge, the love of Guru Maharaj Ji or the necessity of meditation. In practice, premies te to meditate according to private schedules, to do service when can upon by those who do the organizing (a service too) and to hold Satsattg together regularly, several times a week. This is what expected of them by Maharaj Ji and the mission functions partly bring prensies together for Satsang as often as possible. Premies believe they have the answer to their own private problems, anxiety and fears and to those of the world. Meditation on knowledge brings peace of mind to each individual who receives knowledge and this ultimately the way to achieve world peace. If all people, statesmen and politicians, had knowledge, wars could no longer be fought. The emphasis on world peace in the mission’s propagandai prominent in the early conversionist days and DLM appeared to be another millennial sect, predicting that a thousand years of peace would be ushered in by Guru Maharaj Ji. This emphasis has almost disappeared today, premies being far more interested in their own state of peace than in that of the world. The change probably reflects both the signal failure to convert the world’s millions and the general counter-cultural shift from a concern to change the world towards exploration of the self. It is also in accord with the current intro-versionist phase dictated by the leader. Another change in emphasis has been from extolling the virtues of knowledge in satsang, to extolling the virtues of Guru Maharaj Ji himself, not merely as the one who has revealed this knowledge, but as the source of life, the guiding force in people’s lives, the creator and Lord of the Universe. This shift has been paralleled by important changes in organizational structure and policy which have resulted in a democratization of the movement towards an overt autocracy, or even theocracy, in line with the third phase of the mission’s history. This development will be discussed further in the section on the leader. Direct physical contact with his devotees is arranged by Maharaj Ji through .the organization of festivals several times a year where premies see their Perfect Master, hear his message and actually stand in his presence for darshan, when they pass ‘before him and receive a sense of his personal and awe-inspiring love.6 These festivals, some of which a large proportion of the most active premies manage to attend, are extremely important for binding the movement together, keeping central control in the hands of Maharaj Ji and reinforcing the faith and devotion of premies. They also require planning, deployment of labour, communication lines between international headquarters, national headquarters, the premie communities and the individual premies, and a very considerable financial outlay. Two other important gatherings are national and community programmes and conferences. Program-mes, like festivals, serve to bring premies together and strengthen the message.’7 Usually without the presence of Maharaj Ji, they are occasions when premies hear satsang from leading members, officials and from Maharaj Ii’s own mahatmas, now called ‘initiators’, the majority of whom are now Westerners. Recently programmes have been held in four centres in Britain at which Raja Ji has been the principal attraction, as Maharaj Ji’s brother and personal ambassador. Conferences often follow a festival and it is here that Maharaj Ji dictates policy to national representatives. Though policy is imposed from above, in practice the instructions are sufficiently vague and flexible to allow for wide interpretation and for many redefinitions and even volte-f aces on the part of Maharaj Ji as the consequences of his instructions are revealed to him.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 18:54:55 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Part 2
Message:
The Following

The initial support for the mission came from the ranks of the hippie generation of the late sixties and early seventies, and at least half of the active premies even today received knowledge between 1970 and 1973.” From the mission’s records and my own research it is clear that the vast majority of recruits were in their early twenties. They had participated in the various phases of the evolution of the counter-culture. They were ‘into drugs’, ‘into rock’ and ‘into’ self-realization and exploration. They thought of themselves as hippies and as drop-outs from main-stream society, who rejected the achieve-ment ethic and the ‘work ethic. While a substantial proportion was highly educated, with a degree or at least several ‘A’ levels, almost half came from manual worker familes.” They were hostile to authority, to organization, to bureaucracy. They ‘believed in ‘doing your own thing’, in freedom from constraints and in the supremacy of the self. At the same time they were seeking something to believe in, some commitment to a cause, peace of mind, lasting happiness and above all, love. According to the mission’s claims and press reports DLM attracted such people in large numbers. It could offer instant salvation through the knowledge of Guru Maharaj Ji; it could harness the frustrated talents and energies of hundreds into the cause of the mission’s evangelical goals and through meditation on knowledge, peace of mind could be achieved and the transcendental experienced. For this generation of ‘seekers’ the mission provided a refuge and a way of life.
When it is claimed that the social composition and attitudes of the membership act as a constraint on the kind of organization which develops, one has in mind particularly the ‘hippie life-style’ to whichmost devotees are still attracted, which eschews formality, orthodox timekeeping and rules imposed from above.2’
Though enthusiastic individuals can always ‘be found to run a communication system, keep records, produce a newspaper, organize meetings and collect money, ‘these organizers have to work with a membership that is basically hostile to formal organization and is unwilling to accept the authority of anyone other than that of Guri Maharaj Ji. This characteristic of the membership, its strain towards the individualism of ‘the counter-culture’, has always acted as a curb on the development of a complex bureaucratic organizational structure. Many lower prticipants either ignore or show amusement at the pretensions of officialdom.2’ In consequence most officials are very anxious to impress on the membership that they are only ‘doing service’ for Maharaj Ji and are really just ordinary premies.
But it would be misleading to suggest that most premies prefer the passive, introversionist phase the mission is now going through. Of the hundreds who participated in the frenetic activities of the first phase there are those who regret its passing and would like to work in a more active, proselytizing movement.23 What premies are against is not organization as such, but formal, bureaucratic organization. When Maharaj Ji announced that he was dissolving the formal side of the organization, as he did at Frankfurt in 1976,2 this could be interpreted as a response to preniies’ resistance to bureaucratic structures. However, a consequence of having only a skeletal formal organizational structure is that recruitment suffers and the active, evangelical energies of the movement are frustrated. Another interpretation is put upon Maharaj Ji’s action in the next section of this paper.

The Leader

Given the fact that Guru Maharaj Ji was only thirteen years old when DLM was established in the West, it is likely that he had little control over the course of events and that Mata Ji in fact was the organizing force.24 However, during the first two and a half years after the mission had been established, Guru Maharaj Ji’s habit of arriving late, or not at all, for public programmes in Britain was doubtless a factor in his receiving an increasingly hostile press coverage which, in turn, may have contributed to the decline in recruitment which took place after the Alexandra Palace festival.
When Maharaj Ji began to assert his independence from his mother, both as an individual and as a leader, the mission entered a period of crises, internal conflict and consequent recession.2’ In May 1974, Mahara Ji m’arried an American girl, Marolyn Joynson (now called Durga Ii), in direct defiance of his mother’s wishes and the event shook the mission to its foundations. This marriage brought about an exodus from the ashrams, the stable core of the mission which had been a vital means of social control, as premies flocked to get married and began to produce their own children, within customary marriage structures. It was an important turning point for the mission. The followers seemed to grow up overnight into adults with normal family responsibilities and ties. The base of support inevitably shifted from the ashrams to the wider premie community. This meant that central control was very much weakened and that .the ordinary, non-ashram premie began to play a more important, if passive, role in determining the mission’s fortunes. At the same time, many premies were shaken by ‘the marriage and felt almost betrayed by their leader. It is apparent that the marriage was responsible for a loss of morale and therefore support for the mission by many premies.” Immediately following Maharaj Ji’s marriage a struggle for power took place within the Holy Family itself. Maharaj Ji was now sixteev years old. He had the knowledge that his personal following in the West was well established. It is likely that he felt the time had come to take the reins of power from his mother, who still dominated the mission and had a strong hold over most of the mahatmas, all of whose were born and brought up in India. Another factor may well have been the financial independence of Maharaj Ji, which he enjoys through generosity of his devotees.21 Whatever the decisive factors in the struggle for power, it is apparent that the break came soon after Maharaj Ji’s marriage though Mata Ji attempted to appoint the eldest brother, Bhagwan ji, as the new Perfect Master, or Satguru, the western premies withdrew their loyalty from Maharaj Ji. In Britain a long war ensued over the legal control of DLM as Maharaj Ji was not yet of age, but Mata Ji was out manoevred by Maharaj Ji’s supporters who passed the officially registered Divine Light Mission and used Div United Organization (DUO) (which had already been established 1973 to co-ordinate all the mission’s activities) and this became the mission's operational headquarters. The most important outcome the ‘Holy Family Row’ was the establishment of Guru Maharaj Ji the sole head of DLM, as an international religious organization, with its headquarters remaining in the United States. Once Maharaj became the de facto head of the mission, various factors, which must include his own inexperience and lack of long-term policy and I anxiety not to become a puppet of his officials, led to a gradual slowing down of recruitment, a falling away of active support and a complete cessation of organized proselytizing activities.
A turning point in the history of the British mission occurred on a surprise visit Maharaj Ji made to England, when he spoke to several thousand premies at the Bloomsbury meeting. The message appeared to be, ‘get yourselves ‘together and organize premie communities, as the organizational base of the movement’. The term ‘premie communities’ refers to aggregates of premies who live in the same town or district and give satsang in one another’s homes. The reaction to Maharaj Ji’s message apparently went beyond what had originally been intended, as the communities organized ‘workshops’ when the conduct and content of satsang, and even the practice of meditation, were analysed and (constructively) criticized. Premies began to feel so confident there was talk of electing officers and even community initiators; democracy had certainly got out of hand. Paralleling the emphasis on the ordinary premie communities, Maharaj Ji let it be known that the link with Indian culture might be an impediment to the movement’s growth. It is very likely that he was so advised by his western officials and a number of Indian prayers and chants were dropped from public rituals and even the term mahatma was replaced by a western term, ‘initiator’, or one who initiates into knowledge. This move also removed some of the mystique from the mahatmas and after Maharaj Ji had appointed several Westerners the practice of hav-ing mahatmas on the stage at the feet of Maharaj Ji, while he delivered satsang, was discontinued, as was also the custom of having loyal members of the Holy Family surrounding him at such times. Thus on one hand the movement was being democratized in terms of a or less equal ‘mass’ and on the other hand the individual apremacy of Maharaj Ji, separated from the mass, was emphasized.
At the conference in Frankfurt in November 1976, Maharaj Ji had announced that the International Headquarters were dissolved and that henceforth he would guide the mission, with his brother, Raja Ji, as ambassador. In fact what had occurred was the removal from power of his closest adviser, who had been the International President the headquarters were set up in the United States. It is apparent that Maharaj Ji resented the advice given to him by his chief subordinate and dismissed him when a clash of wills occurred.2’ The dismantling of the International Headquarters did not in fact take place, although staff numbers were greatly reduced, at the national
level as well, and officials are very cautious now, afraid to take initiative while they try to guess what it is their Guru really intends.
A further example of erratic policy changes is Maharaj Ji’s attitude towards the ashrams. In 1976, Maharaj Ji suggested that ashrams were retreats, or hothouses for premies who could not cope with the rigours of living in the everyday world. It was time, he said, for ashram premies to face .the world and live as ordinary premies in the com-munity. The direction was part of a policy which had been slowly developing for a long time, of weakening the powers of the National Office and the privileges of ashram premies (who received free passage and entrance to festivals) and putting more, albeit diffuse, power into the local premie communities.
The leader now appears to be changing his mind. In Britain,plans are being made to open a few ashrams for premies who wish to live devotional life and it is intended that an initiator will reside in each ashram and look after the spiritual welfare of the local community. It would seem in fact that the ashrams acted as a pivot for the mission’s stability and this is now being appreciated. At the same time the stress on the community premie, which had led to what was now viewed excessive democratization, which was strongly repudiated by Maharaj Ji at Frankfurt, has now been controlled by the simple device blocking public communication channels upwards to the headoffice. For more than twelve months now, the national publication which carried letters from premies, often extremely critical of other premies and the head office, (but never of Maharaj Ji), has not been printed. Instead premies receive an exclusive diet of full -transcripts of Maharaji Ji’s satsang at various festivals across the world. Maharaj Ji made it known that he disliked his satsang to be edited and only extracts published. At present then, premies have neither a public platform discussing the mission’s policies nor a vehicle for receiving an interpeted policy via the mission officials. Such a situation, though increasing Maharaj Ji’s control over the movement, does so at cost of expansion and middle-management confidence. It is not likely to succeed as a long-term policy As Beckford has suggested, in order to prosper voluntary organizations must secure a continuous supply of human and material resources through their members’ voluntary endeavours, their financial contributions and their readiness to obey organizational rules. This means that not only must leaders adapt their strategies to the requirements of the members but also that organizational objectives ‘can only be achieved ... if objectives a be explicitly defined and unambiguously operationalized’.” In case of DLM, confusion over organizational goals and lack of firm leadership control at the intermediate and grass root levels, combined with a following who are being pulled in one direction after another without structural channels of two-way communication, all lead to confusion and lack of desire to recruit new members. What is surprising is not that the mission is no longer expanding significantly, but that it manages to survive at all. This answer to the second issue must lie in the mission’s continued ability to satisfy fundamental psycho-logical and social needs of its adherents.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 18:56:38 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Part 3
Message:
The Cultural Context

The effect of the cultural environment within which the mission functions has been implicit in the a-bove discussion. The basic problem arises through attempting to establish a ‘radical’ meditation sect, with loosely formulated objectives and unspecific demands upon the following, ‘within the world’. Evidence from other newly established religious sects suggest that very strict control over members, through explicit rules, is essential for organizational strength. Wallis has shown how the Scientologists carefully control the behaviour of their adherents both through a highly complex hierarchical bureaucratic structure and through its systems of rules to cover almost all contingencies’ In the case of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, control over members is exercised trough a thorough-going process of resocialization within the temple, which effectively insulates the devotees from outside, societal pressures.’1 On the other hand, different strategies have been employed by the Children of God have varied from cutting the following off from contact with society in rural colonies, to the more recent emphasis on the ‘cash nexus’ whereby the members are encouraged by actual cash incentives to sell the group’s literature to the public. According to Wallis, at the time of his study, it was going through a phase of ‘colportage and routine proselytization’2’ From the point of view of this thesis, how-ever, the organization still had clear cut goals with strict control over be membership and its contact with the wider society. Another xample is that of the United Family, which retains its organizational rength through a thorough induction and training into Family life and careful regulation of the members’ contact with the outside world.” In all the above cases, the goals are explicit and members’ relations with the wider public are constrained by explicit rules of conduct which are legitimated through established authority structures.
In the case of the DLM, there are no regulations governing behaviour towards the public at large, nor are there explicit proselytizing procedures. Nor are premies protected from wider cultural influences through any form of insulation from the world. In the early days, the life of an ashram premie, apart from time spent in employment, revolved round the ashram. There were very few hooks, no televisiot and no visits to the cinema or recreational centres. The ashran preniie’s life was strictly controlled. Following the closure of thc ashrams, premies have a choice of how often, or even whether or no to attend satsang, to meditate and to do service. Wider influence constantly impinge on the premies’ devotional life and there are no clear guidelines for regulating behaviour in relation to the work It must also be stated however that the ashrams, situated as they usually were in terraced houses in urban areas with premies expected to earn their living in the secular world, were not ideally placed as devotional centres of an introversionist sect.”

Summary

It will be apparent from the foregoing that DLM is still very much an evolving social phenomenon whose structural characteristics have changed several times in response to a number of crucial events as Maharaj Ji’s marriage and the ‘Holy Family row’. The social characteristics of the adherents in interaction with the leadership has also set limitations on the movement’s development and policy orientations. The mission’s following is predominantly composed of or less reformed hippies, most of whom still have a strung to the ‘counter-culture’ and who are not amenable to formal rules and regulations and organizational discipline. Their attachment to the mission relies on a more spiritual commitment. Even their leader Maharaj Ji himself, rarely issues orders, preferring to suggest, for example, that premies would have more success in realizing knowledge if they did not pollute their bodies with drugs, rather than forbid premies to ‘take drugs. It was only the ashram premies who were prepared to take orders from the mission and they were a small minority of all premies, who in any case could always leave the ashrams if the life proved too arduous.
At the time of writing, the whole organization has been reduced to a very simple framework, consistent with the limited goals of keeping premies actively participating in satsang, service and meditation and gathering together to reinforce their commitment at larger program-mes and festivals from time to time. In Britain, there are about half a dozen full-time workers at Head Office, four regional co-ordinators and community representatives in most large towns. Contact with outsiders through work, friendship ties, and the ‘drug-scene’ still ensures a small but regular supply of new recruits which may replace those who lapse from the movement. But the movement cannot expand or hope to bring peace to the world on this basis. Even with a very much reduced full-time national staff ‘the mission is still moving from one financial crisis to the next and has not solved the problem of financial stability.” It appears to be unlikely that the present lack of emphasis upon recruitment will continue indefinitely. The seizure of power by Maharaj Ji left the misson without clear direction. Charisma is not enough for an organization to prosper. The leader must also learn how to manipulate the movement to achieve the ends he manifestly seeks, otherwise a hiatus in activity results. A new policy with the organizational structure to implement it has not yet been worked out.

Conclusions

This paper has attempted to show that the Divine Light Mission as a social organization is a product of various constraints which stem from the degree of competence of the leader, the social composition of the followers, the beliefs and practices of the devotees and the cultural context within which the mission functions.

It would seem that if the mission is to solve its problems, which be expressed in terms of recruitment levels, membership comitment and financial stability, fundamental organization changes will have to take place. As Beckford has shown, religious movements may widely divergent strategies for solving these basic problems. It would seem, however, in the case of DLM that, unless solutions are found, long-term decline is inevitable. This study of DLM as a social ganization adds additional weight to the ‘intriguing possibility that a cultural appropriateness of a religious movemen may have as much with its form of organization as with its set of teachings’.”

Peston Polytechnic.
First received 16th May, 1978 Finally accepted 23rd August, 1978

The Divine Light Mission as a Social Organization

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 05:15:41 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Part 3
Message:
that brought back memories my friend,we sure did fall hook line and sinker.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:22:40 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: One of the fruits of Knowledge
Message:
The French Forum is getting interesting. They are preparing for Rawat's September visit to their beautiful capitol. And they have just been visited by a woman named Marine who has entered into a romantic relationship with a premie man. She has asked for some advice from the French ex-premies in exactly the same way that we have been visited here on a few occasions.

It seems that all was fine and dandy in the relationship except that the premie man would only give vague responses to Marine's inquiries about his meditation practice. After a time, the whole story comes out: the premie finally bluntly tells Marine that there is a part of him that she will never be able to reach, that what Maharaji has given him is something more precious than anything that happens in a romantic relationship. Marine realizes she has fallen in love with a man who will always consider her second-class in favor of his guru.

This is one of the consequences of following Mr. Rawat. Danny, if you're still here: this is what I mean when I say you lose a portion of your humanity when you become involved with a cult leader. Knowledge is not free. Premies in fact pay a great price when they pretend that their fulfillment lies at Rawat's feet.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:44:26 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: One of the fruits of Knowledge
Message:
I was a premie when I fell in love with another premie, French for that matter, same shit happened. Could never figure out why she could not accept anyone else above grom gum ji, I was a premie and I managed it. Strangly enough she started it.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 14:11:12 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Discovery Channel Cult show
Message:
Watched the show on cults last night. While the focus was on apocalyptic type cults, the characteristics are pretty much the same as M. Fortunately for premies, M is so narcissistic it's unlikely that he would consider killing himself and those who live to serve him. However, the dynamics are the same as in the cults portrayed on the show-Jim Jones Peoples Temple, Heaven's Gate, the Breathren, etc. If you think about the posts by premies who would still crawl across the country to lick his boots, and are grateful to him for every breath they take, what wouldn't they do if he asked them?

The Heaven's Gate folks believed they were progressing to the next plane of existence and after killing themselves, they were being picked up by a space ship heralded by the Hale-Bop comet. Premies merely believed that a 13 y/o indian boy was the supreme lord of the universe in human form who was going to bring peace to the world-after a 'soul rush' kicked off a millennial event (that might actually have sent the Astrodome into space).

I know, I know. Old history. But only because M is clever enough now not to make outragious public statements. However, premie thinking remains the same.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:52:07 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Astrodome and the spaceship: same nutty taste
Message:
Yeah, we think of ourselves as a cut above those Halle-Bop crazies but think of it: We believed M was Lord of the Universe. We were pretty darn nuts too!
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 15:40:46 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Astrodome and the spaceship: same nutty taste
Message:
I remember from 1973 through until about 1983 ( most of this time I was in the ashram) my parents were were pretty darn worried. They saw me as being in a cult that was just as weird as any others. Their worry did ease off after that, but when I told my mother about 8 years ago that I no longer had anything to do with M, she was still relieved.
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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 02:04:08 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: Astrodome and the spaceship: same nutty taste
Message:
It must be so hard on parents to see a child go through this crap. I mean you work so hard raising your kids and then to see them get off track like this. Of course in some cases the kids are the sane ones, trying to get their nutso premie parents on track.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 01:50:18 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Discovery Channel Cult show
Message:
The segment I found especially troubling was the one of the mother tracking down her son who had joined The Brethren. When she finally caught up to him in Houston and asked him to return home, his only reply, before he disappeared again, was 'I'll pray on it'. I hope his prayers open his eyes to who it is that really loves and cares for him, but he just might be too stupid, and brainwashed, to wake up and see.

Why is it that family is considered the enemy when you join a cult? Even Maharaji belittles family ties. I've heard him say on several ocassions that family is a secondary thing, just something to tolerate, to fulfill some obligations to, but that's all. Never do I recall Maharaji saying family is a place where you're loved and cared for, which, actually, is what it is. If you can't trust family, who can you? But, of course, if you're part of a family like M's, who he lost the ownership of DLM to, I can see where he might be a little bitter about family.

Did anybody see the show on stigmata that followed 'Doomsday Cults'? Very interesting. I think it's bullshit, people claiming to be marked with the wounds of Christ, but thousands of pilgrims flock to be near people who claim to posess the stigmata. Maybe that's why they do it. It makes them famous and popular. I wonder if there isn't some money to be made, as well. It was also mentioned that people who claim the stigmata might just be people who are religious zealots who will stop at nothing to spread the faith. Whatever, it was a fascinating exploration of how gullible people can get to bolster their faith.

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Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 14:05:05 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Consider words to arti
Message:
'I am you mother, I am your father, I am your brother.....
The cult leader needs to take the place of the family to maintain complete devotion. In DLM the approach was more subtle. As an ashram premie I was allowed to take trips to visit my family (at their expense of course). In some ways the DLM approach was more powerful. No one was keeping you or hiding you from your family. You were choosing to recognize the M was the all important central figure in your life.

Paul

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 02:41:07 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Discovery Channel Cult show
Message:
Hi jerry
I remember an article in 'Psychology Today' around the time I was questioning Maharaji (early 80's). It said that cults are a substitute family for those who are having trouble breaking away from their families or those whose families are dysfunctional. When you say 'if you can't trust your family, who can you trust?' you imply that families are inherently trustworthy and safe. They aren't (though of course MANY are). But I do know what you mean about cults family attachments into something evil somehow. Jesus in the Bible said you have to leave your family behind to follow Him, and I remember that line going around in the premie days. It's funny how making peace with my family is what made me cut the cord to M. I worked so hard to work all that stuff out and I realized that staying a premie meant I would lose my family again and I didn't want to (I would lose them because they disapproved of it, as well they should have!)So I gave up Maharaji and got my family back which was a good trade. Let's face it, life is hard work, and M's promises seem pretty hokey in comparison with the real struggles of real life.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 06:28:16 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Family trust
Message:
When you say 'if you can't trust your family, who can you trust?' you imply that families are inherently trustworthy and safe.

Hi, Helen. I may have implied this, but it's not what I meant. There's bond in family that lasts for life, while friends and aquaintances come and go. So, if you can't trust those people you're tied to for life, who are you going to trust?

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 02:10:01 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Family trust
Message:
It's true you are tied to your family for life, for better or worse. But those ties can sure not be healthy for some. But I know you know what I mean.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 11:47:41 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Something that I experienced
Message:
I wrote this as a reply for someones thread,which has gone inactive. It is not a big deal.

To some, having knowledge is the ultimate truth,
to others, breaking free of gm bonds is even greater.

Just as was with gm and knowledge,I do not see what is the big deal about breaking free,

(it could happen anytime, you could be climing,
you could be diggin, you could be riddin a cow,
as a matter of fact, I got it now, Victoria, Victoria bitter(seesh, got carried away with a beer ad)

Breaking free does not make me special, I do not get
a special bonous or an advantage on others,
the only thing I get is a measure of my stupidity.

Having done that there is still more to learn,
maybe on how to be a human?
someone that can feel pain, love, happiness
not for any special privelages, but simply
because I am alive.

I have the right for that, just as I have
the right to learn, I also have the
right to be sick, to see a doctor,
take medicine, see a dentist
a neuroligist, psychologist, psychiatrist
anyone I feel like,
to deny me this, is like saying I was
the culprit.

I think if you want to take medicine, that is fine,
if you do want to take medicine, that is
double fine with me.

I was and am still very sick and dependent on
medicine, psychologist and the work.

This is a sad story

'of the reported 25,000 people who end their lives by suicide in the US
every year, the vast majority(at least 80%) are suffering from deprpression. However, sucide deaths are underreported for a variety of reasons. Because of the stigma attached to suicide, physician and coroners may be persuaded by the family to list a death as accidental when the circumstances are questionable. In addition, many single-car accidents are probably suicides. And some people who engage in dangerous sports and occupation, who adopt lethal habits(such as as heavey use of drugs), or who are physically ill and terminate their medication may be seeking death . Consequently, the number of actual suicides per year may well be closer to 50,000. The number of people who aattempt suicide but fail has been estimated at anywhere from two to eight times(100,000-400,000) the number of suicides(Shneidman, 1985)'

I am only one figure in the stats. Like all others, when I was diagnosed as beeing severly depressed, I refused to beleive it, it happens to others not me, that was my answer. Until I was told that what I had compares to breaking both legs then I gave up my struggle.

While being in a psychiatric hospital I saw the ordinary Joe Blow, doctors, psychologists, bussinessmen and great thinkers all in one boat, all sick,
all being looked after by doctors. Some patients were so badly sedated, it made me feel like standing up and walking out as normal, yet I was under 24 hours servalance.

So what is this all about.

Well I had one of the most wounderfull and enriching experiences with the doctors and the patients while I was there.

My doctors had a real nut case in front of them, at no stage I let them
touch me, tell me anything or advice me unless I made the decision
and gave them the go. One particular doctor had to literaylly 'surrender' while
dealing with me. My general attitude was, I am not about to let anyone deal with my life without my concent. Amazingly they understood that.

Further more, one psychologist dealt with cases of pedaophilia and child abuse (rings a bell), I can not count the number of times that I saw her after a session with a client looking for a chest to burry her head and burst into tears, on many occassion she would just go home. The hospital was fully aware of her departure, but no one asked any questions. I had access to her cases but did not once look. Someone else told me very casually what was in one case, after that I shut my mind to it.

I do not understand court proceeding, but she recently had cases in court dissmissed only on her professional opinion as a psychologist , something that many lawyers will tell you is very rare indeed.

It is easy to sit in cyber space and dish out philosophical arguments, because there is nothing
better to do. It is difficult to reach out and say to someone , please do not jump under the next
train because I do love you.

And remember it could happen any time, you could be cli......

take it easy,

Love you and take care

Salam

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:58:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: thankyou Salam
Message:
It *is* easy to hide in cyber space.
That was very brave.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 06:48:10 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Elekum (nt)
Message:
Salaam Elekum, Elekum Salaam
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 17:15:16 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Something that I experienced
Message:
thanks for that salam.keep posting.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 03:37:18 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: I told you this guy's a poet...
Message:
nice one, salam.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 11:25:18 (GMT)
From: TeddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Charles Ca,meron...are you reading this???
Message:
Why doesnt someone invite my old pal charles Cameron to post here...that should be fun..
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 14:29:28 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: TeddyTheTurtle
Subject: Charles Ca,meron...are you reading this???
Message:
TT,

Why don't you invite him, yourself, since you are acquainted? An email contact is available at the hipbone games website.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 17:00:14 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Charles Ca,meron...are you reading this???
Message:
Like Salam said, it's interesting that Charles Cameron does not mention on his resume that he edited the book Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji, and although he mentions being involved in some kind of American Indian ritual, he no where mentions Maharaji, knowledge, or being a premie at all, as if it had no influence on his life whatsoever.

In this sense, he's like Michael Dettmers, he just expunges Maharaji, and his cult activities from his resume.

Also, Charles, get out and get some exercise! You look awful.

Although, siring a child at age 55 ain't bad. Congratulations! How long as Viagra been around? ::)) Just kidding.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:50:44 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: love the part about his beautiful ex ballerina
Message:
wife. Hmm.... she must be doing a LOT of holy name based on that picture. Or maybe there is some female form of viagra I don't know about. eeessshhhh!

aside to Salam:
I feel a bit guilty for unloading all that WIGMJ work on you but now that I think about it, I could not have stood reading it. Hope you aren't losing weight from throwing up reading it or anything.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 15:51:19 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Charles Ca,meron...are you reading this???
Message:
Really, Joe, be fair. Have you got M and DLM on your resume? I certainly haven't on mine. The last time I saw Charles Cameron was in 1978 or 79. He was in the US writing a book on Native Americans in the northwest. Was it ever written/ published?

My other memory of him, apart from Who is GMJ, is that a friend of mine was brought to knowledge after Charles told her that sex was incredible while practising holy name.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:24:00 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: DLM on the Resume
Message:
No, I don't have DLM on my resume, but then I never wrote a book for Maharaji either and I'm quite public about the fact that I used to be a premie and why I'm not anymore.

What I was pointing out is a certain level of hypocrisy by people like Cameron and Dettmers. They either continue to be premies but don't admit it, or aren't any longer but don't say anything publicly about it either, and at the same time pretend like it never happened. Dettmers is worse, though. He just had a half-truth on his resume and says he did business work for a 'Swiss Foundation.' Although, I think he removed that from his resume after it was pointed out here.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:28:18 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joan Apter also lies
Message:
On her resume it says she was 'Director of Education for Elan Vital' or something equally misleading. What she was, was an intiator for Maharaji.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 17:11:12 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joan Apter also lies
Message:
Is Charles Cameron still active? I do see your point although I'm not quite sure whether a lack of a public denunciation means one should have to include EV or DLM on a resume. Actually, going by what Michael Dettmers and Joan Apter stated in their CVs, we could all make up some fairly impressive sounding titles-you could even state that you had been Director of the Miami operations of a Multi National Foundation.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 18:52:50 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: How About
Message:
Regional Contact for NAm Synchronization Team... Very impressive.

Really, though, I don't blame Charles for not including DLM on his resume, unless, of course, he is still a premie. It is very embarrassing. I just thought it was interesting that someone who was as visible as Charles, and he was into it for a decade or more, would just drop that period of his life from his resume. But then, he is into some really new-agy stuff. It isn't like he's a bank president now, and doesn't want anyone to think he was in a nutty cult.

I wonder what having been a premie would do to a politician, especially now, when 'private lives' seem to be fair game.

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 00:55:06 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: How About
Message:
I suspect a politcian would try to pass it off as a silly, misguided aspect of his or her youth. The problem is that most of us weren't really all that young by the time we left.
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Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 13:55:53 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: we tried it but didnt inhale!-nt
Message:
sfgh
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:52:29 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Charles Ca,meron...are you reading this???
Message:
Why he never put down in his resume that he wrote the book

'Who is Guru Maharaji JI ?'?

Embaressed?

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 06:33:44 (GMT)
From: Felicia
Email: None
To: whatever
Subject: ex's ..current..and non's..
Message:
reading the preface of your site.
It is somewhat B wildering that you openly do not live up to your
preface.
ex whatevers
current whatevers
non whatevers ????
How come the current guys get deleted and the ex guys don't ?
Change your preface and I am sure you will attain satisfaction.
Can a current talk shyte 'bout some ex ?
The ex's sure are freely talking shyte 'bout the Man.
As far as non whatevers...
I really don't think they exist here.
Buy the way.
If JesusChristo comes back.
Be sure to let me know.
ps: don't bother to tell me what his antilly does.
Thanx. SORRY ABOUT THE SCREAMING
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:48:43 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Felicia
Subject: help! What was that?
Message:
You post doesn't make any sense. Can you tell me what is it that you wanted to say?????

Are you a premie?

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 12:20:54 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: help! What was that?
Message:
Sb,

She is asking wether to shit or not to shit. Because when she tries lebanise shit it feels good, and when she tries someones elses shit, it feel like shit, so the whole thing being a big pile of shit, she does not know anymore whose shit is who.

got it

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:04:46 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: nicely put.
Message:
I thought that my perception (same as yours) was product of my dirty mind, that's why I asked.

Thanks for the clarification. ;)

s

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:00:39 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Felicia
Subject: ex's ..current..and non's..
Message:
make that a small m in man.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 07:14:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Felicia
Subject: literates, illiterates and premies
Message:
Education level?
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 07:43:45 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: literates, illiterates and premies
Message:
What has that got to do with anything?
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:30:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: It can matter, not always but sometimes
Message:
Maharaji is a severly toxic, anti-intellectual influence. Stick around him long enough, a few decades, say, and your brain is bound to rot. Formal education is one way of trying to rectify that problem. It's not the only way but it IS one way. When I read premies utter poorly expressed, grossly illogical things, I sometimes wonder if they'd be able to do that if they had a bit of an education.

Do you agree or not?

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 21:35:08 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It can matter, not always but sometimes
Message:
When I see posts like 'Felicia's', the only motivation I can see is for it to stir up trouble. The way these posts are written are always too bad to be true, and just another way of attracting
flaming from ex's in an attempt to show us in a bad light. I would much prefer to see threads such as this ignored completely. Then the moronic nature of the subject is highlighted for all to see by the non response.
I think that education is great at anytime in one's life. Unfortunately, most of mine was received at the school of hard knocks.
Aproppos of that reply to my post below, thank you for it. I think it is now time for us to agree to disagree on certain aspects and go on to other things.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 23:41:16 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: apropos
Message:
From schoolmaster G:

'Aproppos of' should be 'Apropos'

apropos

adj.
Being at once opportune and to the point. See Synonyms at relevant.

adv.
1.At an appropriate time; opportunely.
2.By the way; incidentally: Apropos, where were you yesterday?

prep.
With regard to; concerning: Apropos our date for lunch, I can't go.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 00:25:29 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: G
Subject: apropos
Message:
Thank you G. A bit cheeky but I love a laugh.
Sorry you can't make it for lunch. We'er having lobster.
Chow, Oliver;)
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 08:58:40 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: literates, illiterates and premies
Message:
how about making yourself understood for a start!
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:03:32 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: Was I talking to you? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 18:36:00 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Was I talking to you?
Message:
Forums are all can reply and join in a discussion, they are not private conversations, this concept has been true across computer bbbs and the internet for many many years, if you want a private conversation you are in the wrong place.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:24:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Yes, it's funny but no, I didn't make it up
Message:
From ELK:

Ivete Belfort Mattos:

True story

From Sao Paolo, Brazil


Recently a TV Program screened an interview with 'the wisest man in the world' He was an old man, who'd studied in different places and travelled all his life.
This 'wise' man spoke for 20 minutes about nothing. Beautiful words without content or sense, going nowhere.

He did not answer any questions. But it was a hit with the audience. I could not believe it.

The show reminded me of the times, that I buy into ideas like 'VIP' or 'clever' or 'powerful' or 'noble' when they are just qualities that people pretend that they have.

A few days later, it was in news that 'the wisest man in the world' was a fraud.

So, I am glad to do not pretend to be wise and I don't intend to be a fraud. It is just so much easier to be happy in the simplicity of this gift of Knowledge.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:31:53 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, it's funny but no, I didn't make it up
Message:
He says he does not intend to be a fraud and then he goes right ahead and lies about knowledge.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:31:12 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, it's funny but no, I didn't make it up
Message:
He spoke for twenty minutes and said nothing, just beautiful words without content or sense? Well, I guess Ms. Mattos should recognize that style of speech by now.

I'm glad she's enjoying the simplicity of her thought process.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:49:06 (GMT)
From: Bill
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Michael and Shroomie
Message:
Hello Michael,
In a thread now in inactive, You and the Shroomster were diplomatically exchanging niceties.
You resisted his idea that jesus(Yeshua) showed knowledge.
If he did show knowledge, as Shroomananda suggests, and the 4 techniques were the ticket to the heaven on earth, connection to the divine, missing ingredient of salvation ect,
Wouldnt we all have gotten there during at least the 1978-1981+ era?
No need to worry about long past possibilies, your response to the good shroomster could be 'what makes the 4 techniques candidates for respect?'
Where is the evidence in the rawat family effort to popularize these 4 techniques of any benefits.
Of course shp has his idea that 'now we dont have to find joy in this imperfect world' cornerstone of his belief.
Shroomster is wider than that.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 02:00:39 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: It's time for YOU to get the facts straight, O
Message:
O (formerly Nil-URL-Mirror, although he'll never admit it) in a thread down below) to Joe:

Get your facts straight Joe, money for Maharaji is never solicited,period!

From EV Canada's 'regisrered charity information return' 1999, submitted to Revenue Canada and signed by its officers- Georges Legere, Alain Lachance, and Marcel Allaire. An official document.

...Sollicitation is done through direct mailing to members periodically and on a renewal basis, through the phone tree as well as information presentations at the local events.

Now dontcha just love these official documents ? :)

We don't even have to call O a liar.
We've got an official document signed by the officers of EV Canada doing the job for us.

Good nite O. Sleep tight, and as Stonor would say...'don't let the bugs bite.' :::)))

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 02:06:04 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: It's time for YOU to get the facts straight, Joey
Message:
I was quoting what Ma Stonor said to all her little Stonies at bedtime, and the first part was 'Sleep tight ... .' She used to also say something about 'As snug as a bug in a rug' and other such reassuring words. Anyways, the only bugs that bit in our little town were mosquitos. But I guess the way you were using those words, 'and don't let the bugs bite,' with O, wasn't supposed to be reassuring, was it? Have you been mal-quoting Ma Stonor?!!

And that's a good excuse to jump in and ask you, BTW, did you catch my post about how to eat mangoes without getting any fibre stuck between your teeth?

Stonor

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 11:31:52 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Sorry Joey - YOU to get the facts straight....
Message:
Joey

You said that O said '... money for Maharaji is never solicited,period!'

and to counter his argument, you said that EV Canada said '...Sollicitation is done through direct mailing to members periodically and on a renewal basis, through the phone tree as well as information presentations at the local events..'

You are deliberately implying that EV Canada solicits money 'for Maharaji' although your selective quote doesn't state that. You really need to get your facts straight before your mischievious twisting of the 'official documents' gets you into trouble.

Your deception may win brownie points here, but apart from the legal risks you run, you have dishonestly manipulated the quote to justify your anti-Maharaji prejudices.

Mel

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 17:24:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: I received phone calls frequently asking for money
Message:
Right up til I left in Dec. 97.
I could even supply the name of the premie doing this service
--oops--participation
for EV.
The reasons for the requests for money varied. So and so was traveling and needed money. M needed money for a tour.
Money was needed for a video library and we were to have a video library in order to do propogation, oh... wrong term. What IS it called these days? Spreading this knowledge? nope. something else. good I am forgetting.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:49:53 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Where are you sweetheart? (nt)
Message:
lost?
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 09:48:56 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: I must have only dreamt that..........
Message:
I was the fund raising (soliciting) co-ordinator. Where did the money that supported me when I worked for OGM (office of guru Maha) come from? There were about 15 people who were supported fully, with new cars, new clothes, houses in the best areas and with full time cooks and housekeepers to boot. Where did that money come from?

It came from the single mother with half a cabbage and two onions in her cupboard , that's where. There was plenty left over to make sure Maha and Raja ji had the latest Ferrari's and Lambourgini. One time I remember that Mahaha had been given a Ferrari boxer ( around $50000 ) in the late 70's. He later went out and bought Raja Ji one too.

Wake up Mel boy.

Hal

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 21:11:14 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Well, Mel, gonna face your critics..?
Message:
Mel, for the second time in a week or two, Joe has tackled the flimsines of your posted arguments on this forum.

The first time, his demolition job was so comprehensive you seemed to disappear hastily rather than consider his arguments or admit your too-obvious logical weaknesses. Joe spent time on a long, detailed point-by-point rebuttal of your post with which you had actually started a brand new thread. Strange you didn't want to stick around and read the responses. (Perhaps you remember the spontaneous applause from others reading, who were no doubt keen to see whether you'd take the thing to a second round or throw in the towel right there...

This time both Joe and G (so far - there are plenty of others who might yet join in) have offered first-hand evidence of fundraising methods used by DLM/EV bearing remarkable similarities - in principle, if not in specifics - to the claims by Joey to which you vociferously objected.

Got any further thought?

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 13:40:57 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Well, Mel, gonna face your critics..?...sure Nigel
Message:
..read my response above in a new thread.

Mel

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Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 14:26:04 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: TOTAL empty, stupid reasoning!! (nt)
Message:
Disgusting!
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 21:34:26 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Hey Nigel, lets not forget SB....
Message:
...I thought she also did a wonderful job in kicking Mel's but. Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread, including Mel himself ! :::))
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 19:18:17 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Joey
Subject: You're right Joey - Selene and Hal too...
Message:
In fact, if Mel does try to duck this one, I reckon I'll wait until he reshows on the forum and paste all the replies into a single post for him to deal with.

I actually find it bloody rude of the guy to post his stuff - which invariably requires correction on simple points of fact - and then ignore all responses (assuming that is what he will do this time) only to reappear probably next week making similar accusations about exes.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 18:51:39 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Bullshit, Mel
Message:
As an unpaid employeee of Elan Vital, I was personally requested by the then President of Elan Vital, Dennis Marciniak, to get up in front of the entire premie community and ask for donations:

1. Directly to Maharaji via checks to be made out to 'Guru Maharaj Ji' and mailed to a P.O. Box in Malibu, California;

2. Also as an employee of Elan Vital, I was requested by the leadership of Elan Vital to request that premies to take out loans, borrow on their credit cards, and donate CASH for the rennovation of a Boeing 707 for Maharaji's exclusive use (you know, the one with the gold toilet.)

3. At Elan Vital meetings I attended, I personally heard other employees of Elan Vital request that premies give cash as darshan donations and not other 'gifts,' and again, asking that premies send checks directly to Maharaji in Malibu.

And there were lots more 'donation requests.' One that comes to mind, came via a phone feed from Maharaji's wife, Marolyn, that the premies all contribute money to buy Maharaji an Austin Martin automobile for his birthday. We did, and he got it, which he proudly displayed in a film shortly thereafter.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 01:17:11 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Bullshit, Mel
Message:
And don't forget when we actually received Knowledge. For all of Shroom's talk about Maharaji's 'free gift', shortly before I received Knowledge it was suggested that I offer a gift, myself, at the K session, for my appreciation. It was mentioned that people offer all kinds of things, shirts, ties, fruit, but the 'most practical' thing to give would be money, which, silly me, is what I gave, in a nice little 'thank you' card, no less. I wouldn't be surprised if Shroom was given the same suggestion. I think it was a pretty standard one.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:51:47 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: At my Knowledge session, I gave him a card
Message:
that said:

Eagles never display wonder
Or say 'Tis marvel of the age'
For in nature we the children
Only hold the sane as strange

--Kahlil Gibran

No money, Jerry, and no suggestions from anyone that I do so. And I don't know about you or anyone else, but I would never give him any money until I was sure the Knowledge was the Real McCoy and not just a con job. After I received it, I gave some. In grateful appreciation. Because I wanted to. And I've never given money when I didn't want to even when urgently requested to by Elan Vital or an instructor. I give if and when I want to. The way some of you all talk, you were held up at gunpoint!

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 03:13:38 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: At my Knowledge session, I gave him a card
Message:
No money, Jerry, and no suggestions from anyone that I do so.

How you can utter these pathetic lies ad nauseum is truly a sight to behold.
No doubt about it Shroom, you're a 'classic' premie.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 18:21:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: That is SOOOOO funny, Shroom!
Message:
And I've never given money when I didn't want to even when urgently requested to by Elan Vital or an instructor.

I really did break out laughing at that one, Shroom. You gave away the whole game there, bud. Kind of like that famous -- infamous? -- football player, Wrong Way Jackson, or whatever his name was. Picked up the ball and ran for a touch down -- in his own team's end zone!

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Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 02:33:53 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Shroom
Subject: Theres giving money then there getting took
Message:
You need to understand that those who may not have given money were robbed of family life and career because they were made to feel like if they concentrated on anything else besides his holy love they were doing a half-ass job of devoting their life to the master.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 18:33:56 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: solicitations for Maharaji
Message:
Not only has money been solicited for Maharaji indirectly via contributions to Elan Vital, there have been many occasions where money has been solicited for Maharaji directly. I know because I was solicited and I gave him money as a result. I've got cancelled checks to prove it. These solicitations were for regular money gifts to Maharaji in the form of 5 percent of my paycheck (now there's a 'free gift') and for paying for the following (partial list):

. an Austin Martin automobile
. the Malibu Marble Mansion
. improvements to a road at the Malibu Marble Mansion
. airplanes

There was also solicitations for money gifts at 'festivals'. Remember the money boxes at the darshan lines? That money went straight to Maharaji. Remember the suggestion to give cold cash to Maharaji instead of other gifts? Yes, Maharaji prefers cold cash over that love gift junk.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:01:06 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: What are you saying?
Message:
Are you saying that m/elanvital never solicited money? Never, never?

YOU need to sort your brain out. You KNOW where the money ends up by now. All goes to phoney organizations runned by premies...to hide the money. You know that it would en up somehow, someday, in Rawat's pockets, sooner or later, for his children, and to deny that would be to show one more time how biased YOU are. You are PRO mahariachi, and you sound so proud. Go for it baby!

Read the forum. Soon, more proof to be shown here. JM, are you done with what I sent you?

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 14:56:21 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, please don't hurt me !!
Message:
Mel, I'll be good from now on. I won't do anything bad. Promise. Just don't get rough with me Mel, OK?
I'll do anything you want. I'll buy a smart card. I'll go to Amaroo Day. I'll go to Amaroo Evenings. I'll even go to Amaroo Baby Showers...I don't care! I'll do anything you want...just PLEASE DON'T HURT ME !
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:02:33 (GMT)
From: Roumers have it that EV's
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: lawyers are on their to shut you down..nt
Message:
Salam
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:15:00 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Roumers have it that EV's
Subject: re : lawyers are on their to shut you down..nt
Message:
First of all, you should learn how to spell 'rumor' :)

Secondly, if EV wants to take the increased risk of media exposure... let'em go for it !!

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:41:00 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Well, what can ya say ?? ::))
Message:
Actually, what's really funny, is that Shroom gave O an a+ for the post in which the former Nil-URL-Mirror made his absurd statement.

I think Shroom and O must be the premie version of Laurel and Hardy for Phase 2:::)))

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 02:19:56 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Joey
Subject: It's time for YOU to get the facts straight, O
Message:
people in charge of fundraising actually ring prems who are known to give big bucks and they might say-- we need 50,000, we need 50 people to give 1000 each or similar requests. they are made quite regularly from what I can see. They also have a lot of participation meetings where people are made aware of money needs -eg refurbishing amaroo.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 01:52:50 (GMT)
From: Premieji
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: As the sun sets over Jordan
Message:
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
I believe that we do indeed create our own reality. Now before you start jumping up and down, frothing at the mouth and throwing the Wedgwood in my direction, let me ask you a question. Hands up those of you who grew up in a dysfunctional, violent and loveless family? Car'n, don't be shy. I'm just doing a quick hand count and it appears to be about 95% for the affirmative. Well that doesn't me. Simply put, my theory is that as we're growing up, we perceive what's happening in our little world to be what's real and our version of 'reality' is formed. Makes sense in a simple way. Hence the woman who grew up in a violent, alcoholic home, selecting a violent alcoholic husband. On one level it doesn't make any sense, but on another it makes perfect sense. If you believe deep down that life is untimately a shitty experience, then somehow you're going to find a way to make it just that. Now that brings me to this website. There's got to be hundreds of thousands, mabe millions of Premies out there, and there'e got to be hundreds of thousands of people who just naturally moved on and got into other things, but there's maybe a couple of dozen of people here who wear their pain, disillusionment, hatreds and failures like some kind of badge of honour. Now back to where I started.Water tends to find it's own level and that's what I think you're doing here, but you're blaming Maharaji for your dilemna, a man who only wants your happiness.
I'd like to do my bit for world peace by taking you on a guided meditation. Now everyone just close your eyes and concentrate on me. For the women out there, imagine me standing on top of a hill naked, surrounded by wild flowers, with my tall, lithely muscled frame, endowed to the max, standing there with the sun setting behind me. BTW, the image may work for some of the guys out there as well. Imagine me as light, as love. Feel me, taste me, run your hands all over me and feel my essence course threw your being. Be one with my smile, with my happiness. Be like an Angel and take yourself lightly. Ok, that's enough for now, take a deep breath and slowly open your eyes, so as not to be blinded by the beauty of creation.
Now lets see if we can do a little better and make this website a place to be proud of, a place of light and wisdom.
Love
Premieji
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 17:12:26 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Premieji
Subject: So, Now that I've imagined you naked...
Message:
What am I supposed to do with that, maybe imagine you frying bacon and grease splattering all over you? Maybe a really bad case of sunburn? The possibilities are endless.

Just to question your statistics, though, there have bee hundreds of expremies who have posted here, and there are many more who read, but don't post. Then there are many ex-premies who probably don't even know this website exists. This website is visited by hundreds of people every day, many of them premies. I think that's because open discussion is verbotten in the Maharaji cult. There is not ONE forum for open discussion among premies. Only sites with heavily-censored affirmations and sickening poetry. You tell me, which of those forums are the most healthy. The ones where people can speak freely and discuss, or the ones where they can't. And what is your master so fucking afraid of?

Plus, your suggestion that anyone who considers themselves a premie is happy and fulfilled is laughable. Most of the premies I've known are miserable most of the time, just waiting for the next 'event' to get a fix.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 12:43:49 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Premieji
Subject: Dear slug
Message:
There are three cat. of people in your dictionary:

1- practicing premies.
2- non practicing premies.
3- ex-premies.

you forgot, the slug class, your type.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 10:03:40 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Premieji
Subject: As the sun sets over Jordan
Message:
You are so full of bulshit!

What is wrong with you? Because you DO NOT HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING why we come here (to expose Lard who is a fucking lier) why insult?

There's got to be hundreds of thousands, mabe millions of Premies out there, and there'e got to be hundreds of thousands of people who just naturally moved on and got into other things, but there's maybe a couple of dozen of people here who wear their pain, disillusionment, hatreds and failures like some kind of badge of honour. Now back to where I started.Water tends to find it's own level and that's what I think you're doing here, but you're blaming Maharaji for your dilemna, a man who only wants your happiness.

WHAT YOU PROPOSSED TO US, IMAGING YOU IN A HILL, THAT IS HISTERICAL!!! HAHAHAHAHA

Words are free, eh? You just throw them to the air because they sound good? I have NO DILEMA about maharachi, at all. I have no doubts that he's a con man, so where is the dilema? Do you know what a dilema is, but the way? Your observation about this site is filtered by your devotion. If I was you I try reasoning because obviously you haven't. Premies would love to see us desappear. Is not going to happen. We MUST be here to tell the world who LARD IS: A CRAPPY CON MAN. What you think about him is only because you are a member of his cult. You think like him. He taught you a new language. Enjoy it. I hate it!! IS FAKE!

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 18:03:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: that is the funniest post :)
Message:
Here I was reading along....
For the women out there, imagine me standing on top of a hill naked, surrounded by wild flowers, with my tall, lithely muscled frame, endowed to the max, standing there with the sun setting behind me.
BTW, the image may work for some of the guys out there as well. Imagine me as light, as love. Feel me, taste me, run your hands all over me and feel my essence course threw your being. Be one with my smile, with my happiness. Be like an Angel and take yourself lightly.

{ok I'm laughing but it's funny and I'm getting into it here,
then he posts):

Ok, that's enough for now, take a deep breath and slowly open your EYES eyes!! damned...... thought we were getting somewhere.
The Chia guy post was funnier but this one was pretty hilarious.
by the way premieji I am sure it was a joke but if not I can tell you my immediate current family I am around and have been for a decade are loving and caring and so are all my friends and coworkers.
That newage garbage isn't working on me.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 20:15:46 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I did not post that!
Message:
I am sending mail to the FA.

Somebody else posted it, Selene, not me.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 20:22:40 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: which post didn't you post sb? I know you aren't
Message:
premieji.
Do you mean someone posted under your SB name?
I have had someone else post as Selene before
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 04:13:57 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Premieji
Subject: ...may it also set over your ignorance
Message:
Hands up those of you who grew up in a dysfunctional, violent and loveless family? Car'n, don't be shy. I'm just doing a quick hand count and it appears to be about 95% for the affirmative.

I just thought this might interest you premieji. Some good solid information, instead of spinning in your myths.

From a really excellent website:
http://www.influenceatwork.com/cult.html

In the wake of the UFO/Heaven's Gate cult suicide, I have heard several media personalities ask these questions of former and current cult members. The questions make me laugh, because they're a perfect example of how the wrong questions can frame and obscure an issue. Even when cult experts correctly point to the powerful environmental constraints generated by cults, rather than to the personalities and backgrounds of individual cult members, these media personalities single-mindedly press the question, 'But what's wrong with cult members?' The answer, for the vast majority of inductees, is that there was nothing 'wrong' with them--at least, not until they were persuaded to join a cult.

For the most part, normal, average people join cults--people like you and me. Research indicates that approximately two-thirds of cult members are psychologically healthy people that come from normal families. The remaining third are likely to have depressive symptoms, usually related to a personal loss--perhaps a death in the family, a failed romantic relationship, or career troubles. Only 5 to 6 percent of cult members demonstrate major psychological problems prior to joining a cult (Singer, 1995). Cults don't want, and don't recruit, people with psychological problems or physical handicaps--they represent a loss rather than a gain of cult-oriented productivity. Cults prefer intelligent, productive individuals who are able to contribute money and talent to 'the cause,' whatever it may be (Hassan, 198-).

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:21:03 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Joey my compliments
Message:
on some really excellent posts from you. You are rather good at countering premie non factual bullshit.I liked your post to URL/MIRROR / O disputing his idea of non solicitation of money.

Thanks

Hal

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:06:50 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: JM, read Hal's post!
Message:
Is it ready to post what I sent you?
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 15:09:18 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Thanks Hal, although....
Message:
...if this keeps up, I may need a lawyer pretty soon :)
I wish! I just wish!!
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 02:11:07 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Premieji
Subject: The sun is rising there now actually
Message:
Sorry but I just threw up. I very rarely critisize anyone here, being the unassuming soul that I am but in your case I'll make an exception.

You are a complete and utter prick. You are one of these ignorant people who has a little bit of knowledge and then thinks he knows everything. Complete ignorance has its own arrogance and you have it in spades.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 02:38:33 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: PremieJi
Subject: But perhaps you are a joke
Message:
On second thoughts, your post cannot be serious. I think it must be a joke. You got me going there for a mo.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 05:00:33 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: too familiar...problems like shp
Message:
Hi Sir David,
The attitude about no love in anyones family seems to resurface here in some of the premie posts.
premies are distant from other people and after reading shps post below, the long one with Rob, I thought today that shps problem might be tougher for him because it seems he has no real interaction with adults in his life. He seems to me be a loner and classifies people instead of knowing them.
His respect of his fellow man and woman is actually nonexistant.
He will huff and puff to the contrary perhaps but he thinks he is so open to life he has his door slammed shut to mature adults in his life. If he actually knew adults as friends, he would not be able to post like he does. He has kids but it is hard to imagine that he lives and talks with them and deals with all the adults that come with having kids in the school system and sports or scouts or neighbors kids parents.

That immature reaction we see in the elan vital website and the tendency to lie rather than face truth, the adolecent squirming in the face of uncomfortable realities is in shp as well as his lord. rawats 'total disregard for doing what the 'world' expects' as the elan web site states, is just that same immature defiance to mom that little lord rawat embraced long ago.

The isreali rabbi recently came out with this idea that the only way he could explain the 6 million jews dying and have that jive with his beliefs, was that the 6 million MUST have pissed off god.
Similarly, lord rawat had to come up with an idea to explain his immature irresponsiblily and he chose to proudly flaunt his immaturity with the 'arent I smart, I have -total disregard for doing what the 'world'(mom) expects of me.'

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:06:12 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Very nice post, bill. nt
Message:
I mean it, very good post, and thought provoking.
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 03:06:22 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I agree bill
Message:
I agree, Bill. Narcissistic personality disorder--that's a label I would like to slap on M! No concern for anyone but himself. Hey, I read about that rabbi too. Can you imagine him saying that those Jews that died in the Holocaust deserved to die because that was their karma? And that they would be reincarnated??? Sheesh, even Judaism has its nutty cults within it.
The book 'COnversations with God' implies that the Holocaust 'needed to happen' for the world's karma to be resolved. WHAT??? I say it was a tragedy, period. Sheesh!
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:04:44 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: to Jim. My latest e-mail from my Psychologist
Message:
Dear client

This turkey sucks his own cock, such is the manner of his stupidity. More the fool who fails to realise the foolishness of his ways!

His undying adoration for all things scientific is interesting. He believes that all things scientific is sacred and and we must believe in them unquestioningly, but how then are we to expand this knowledge by critically testing and retesting what we believe to be science. The process of questioning, critically analysing and and more importantly forming 'beliefs'/ideas and testing them without the handicap of having to worship the pre-existing scientific modus -operandi is what science/knowledge is all about.

To use his 'flat world' analogy, I'm sure that we all thought the world was flat and believed this was science before some bright spark questioned the status quo. You see, we all construct the world in the parameters that have been entrenched in our culture under the auspices of science, until somebody retests the theories. However for those who have built a belief system about this adoration of science rather than scientific methods(important point!) there is too much cognitive dissonance for them when science is challenged so therfore it is better to cast aside any disputing evidence or opinion in order to propagate the belief system.

BTW what is this shit about someone being 'fully delusional', perhaps our ignorant friend would be better to constuct mental illness as a continuum rather than a simplistic notion of good/evil back/white, beautiful/ugly and sane/mad.

ccm

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 00:35:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: to Jim. My latest e-mail from my Psychologist
Message:
Oliver,

Are you serious? Your 'psychologist' can suck his own cock, thanks very much. Hope you're not paying him actual money or anything.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 02:28:24 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Further e-mail from my Psychologist
Message:
Jim wrote in a previous thread.

Thank you for your comments, Oliver. Indeed, I'm not a psychiatrist and I'm not a psychologist either. But what exactly do you find offensive in my attitude? The fact that I think psychiatry is valid? Yes, how offensive! Sorry, I'm sure.
In fact, I think your psychologist is terribly wrong. Therre is definitely value in diagnosing mental illness. There are definite psychiatric conditions such as schizophrenia and I fail to see how callign a spade a spade is 'redundant' of anything. Coudl the label be misapplied? Yes. Does the diagnosis gurantee a cure or treatment? No. But is it true? Possibly.

But tell me, if this guy isn't into diagnoses then how does he suggest that serious mental illness be treated? Or are we venturing into R.D. Laing territory? You know, the only sane ones around ehre are the ones we call crazy, kind of thing?

Comments from my Psychologist

I really don't think such a reply desereves a response, if this person does not want to think and come up with something more valid and with reason then we are all wasting our time with him.
I am not saying that psychiatry is invalid at all, but that current thinking on classification needs to be analysed and reviewed. Has he ever seen or known someone with a psychotic illness? He misses the point and answers his own question when he describes schizophrenia as a 'definite psychiatric condition' what is definite about an array of symptoms differing for each person in type,intensity and level of associated disability. Whilst psychosis is a condition, because there is some explanation regarding the experience of the person. To dump all of this into the waste basket of schizophrenia only makes the ignorant think they understand.
Calling a spade a spade is fine if you know what that spade is that your categorising. If you do not know it fully and never seek to know it, than don't guess and say 'well, most of its features approximate what we know as a spade then it must be spade'. This type of logic is both wrong and irrelevant.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:11:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Fuck your psychologist, Oliver
Message:
I'm not going to have a conversation like this. And I'm not anxious to rush into one with Mr. Cocksucker anyway.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 20:29:28 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Tourette's syndrome
Message:
Tourette's syndrome

A severe neurological disorder characterized by multiple facial and other body tics, usually beginning in childhood or adolescence and often accompanied by grunts and compulsive utterances, as of interjections and obscenities. Also called Gilles de la Tourette syndrome.

I don't know if you have any tics, but those compulsive obscenities.

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 06:51:09 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Tourette's syndrome
Message:
I just have to say something since my boy has TS. Only about 10% of those with Tourette's have a compulsion to swear. That limited understanding of the disorder is the fuel for stereotyping.

Often TS is accompanied by variations of symptoms of OCD, anxiety and depression. No one with a label is alike. The child psychologist at my son's school did not recognze Tourette's when he was doing things like 'kissing' his arm, blowing at people, making numerous distracting noises, slapping his belly, laughing,
making faces, and repeatedly stretching his limbs. He was also much more likely to say what was on his mind without any restraint. I thought the school psych should have have known, even if I didn't, the forms that Tourette Syndrome and tics could take.

I found the diagnosis by research on the internet in 1997 and then found a psychiatrist who immediately confirmed it, then also added Asperger Syndrome. Medication for the numerous tics and for anxiety have improved his life; and understanding the nature of his differences has boosted his self-esteem and helped us educate others so they are more accepting.

We had some nightmares dealing with the fallout caused by the ignorant fears of one of our vocal nosy neighbors (who is now filling a vacancy on the school board...she lost the election. The prejudices and ostracism that came from that compell me to educate others when I get the chance, so I take it here!

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Date: Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 17:44:15 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: I apologize.
Message:
I apologize.

Thank you for educating me about TS. I didn't know that only 10% have a compulsion to swear. It is indeed a stereotyped disorder. I saw a women with Tourette's on a talk show who did have a compulsion to swear. She seemed very nice and it was obvious that her swearing did not have the usual meaning. She showed courage in going on the show. Unfortunately, the show didn't describe the syndrome well, such as the other symptoms. It seemed to portray the anxiety/depression as simply a result of the swearing. I'm not exactly the paragon of mental health myself, as Hamzen surmised (his trainspotter comment), so I can relate. I'm sorry that you and your son have had to endure this. I also understand about the prejudices and ostracism involved with mental disorders.

Here's a link to a web page about Asperger's Syndrome.

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 00:04:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Thanks, G. Always a pleasure (nt)
Message:
jjjjj
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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 00:41:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're welcome, you are a scholar and a gentleman
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 03:43:25 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Then you may pay me the courtesy.......
Message:
... of responding to the following post entitled 'Where do I begin' that is now inactive:-

Jim,
I am writing this in response to a number of your posts in this thread, but it in all likelihood it may be my last contribution. What I thought might be a useful discussion, especially for the shy mentally ill among us, seems to have been turned into another 'your wrong, I disagree' scenario that will prove of no benefit to anybody.
You ask what I find offensive in your attitude, and state that you are not a psychiatrist or a psychologist. This we all know. You are a lawyer whose contact with the mentally ill, I presume, is through your legal work. You have no discernible mental disability and so to me are totally unqualified to put over the strong unbending views that you have. You dismiss opinions of trained professionals in the field without any regard whatsoever, and display a total reluctance to learn from anyone who has a story to tell about their experience.
Of course there is a benefit in diagnosis but the important work starts with treatment. Just because a person is given a particular label does not mean that they should necessarily be treated the exact same way as others so labelled. The treatment must be designed for the individual and not the label, as every individual suffering from a mental illness is unique to their fellow sufferer. One shoe does not fit all, ever.
My psychologist would like to treat all of his clients like he does me. We know each other well enough to be able to talk honestly and determine from time to time a plan for the immediate future as well as the long term. He empowers me to be the main force behind this plan as he knows that the plan has then more chance of success. His way is not just to depend on the 'chemical straight jacket' that has been so popular over the past few decades. He is a good man, who in my case, does a very good job despite colleagues and superiors who still hang onto the old ways of keeping the client in their place, with heavy medication whether it is warranted or not. Just in case, so to speak.
Yes, I must admit that I and a few others may have a chip on our shoulders about psychiatry. In my case this is after twenty years since being initially diagnosed incorrectly as a paranoid schizophrenic, and I was treated as one for three years until it dawned on 'them' that they had made a mistake. If you don't know how horrific the medication that is prescribed to a schizophrenic can be, just ask the next one who you have to appear for in court. It's horrific stuff. What's more no one ever said, sorry, we made a mistake. Shrinks don't do that. They don't know it all but they like to make the patient and the public think they do, and the ongoing maintenance of their little empires are reliant on this attitude. In my experience the majority of psychiatrists do indeed suffer from a real lack of knowledge of the human condition, as evidenced by their cavalier attitude to my treatment over the years. Interestingly enough, in my country they have the highest rate of suicide in any of the medical professions which sure gives 'food for thought' regarding their mental condition as well.
It is gratifying to read you state that that there are specific mental maladies that they are able to treat, that they are able to diagnose, and successfully treat once and a while. I agree, why don't we talk about those cases. What was the illness, treatment and are the patients leading a happy and fulfilled existence? I love a positive story.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:27:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Sure
Message:
Jim,
I am writing this in response to a number of your posts in this thread, but it in all likelihood it may be my last contribution. What I thought might be a useful discussion, especially for the shy mentally ill among us, seems to have been turned into another 'your wrong, I disagree' scenario that will prove of no benefit to anybody.

That's how you see it. My perspective was that some people started yet another professional-bashing discussion. The target, this time, was psychiatry. Go back. Read the first posts, the one's I originally replied to. There was nothing qualified about them. Psychiatry was bascially derided as bullshit and its practitioners themselves unstable or worse. Well, sorry, I think that's bullshit. I also think it's a very cheap way for people to build themselves up, by categorically slagging a whole other group, in this case mental health professionals.

You ask what I find offensive in your attitude, and state that you are not a psychiatrist or a psychologist. This we all know. You are a lawyer whose contact with the mentally ill, I presume, is through your legal work. You have no discernible mental disability and so to me are totally unqualified to put over the strong unbending views that you have. You dismiss opinions of trained professionals in the field without any regard whatsoever, and display a total reluctance to learn from anyone who has a story to tell about their experience.

Fine, that's how you see it. The fact is I disagree with Mr. Suck-your-own-Cock, your 'trained professional'. And you know as well as I do that his views aren't universal by any means. So what if I disagree? Nothing he said persuaded me. That's how it works, isn't it?

Of course there is a benefit in diagnosis

Stop right there, please. So now we get the qualifications, some attempt at talking about any of these issues reasonably? Go back and read your first posts on the subject.

but the important work starts with treatment.

In any event, your argument here surprises me. You're advocating treatment before diagnosis or even treatment without diagnosis? Sorry, Oliver, that not only makes no sense, it sounds a bit scary. Mind you, I doubt that's what you really mean as it just doesn't make sense. Not to me, anyway.

Just because a person is given a particular label does not mean that they should necessarily be treated the exact same way as others so labelled.

Again, look at how you're at least trying to be measured now, how you're trying to qualify yourself. Perhaps I'd never have posted anything if you guys had started this way.

The treatment must be designed for the individual and not the label, as every individual suffering from a mental illness is unique to their fellow sufferer. One shoe does not fit all, ever.

No argument there but with one qualification of my own. (And yes, this is from a layperson.) While every person is their own little snowflake, granted, there are similarites, categories, types and the like which, to varying degrees, apply here and there. It's all a matter of balance, though, isn't it? Well, I agree and enver said otherwise.

My psychologist would like to treat all of his clients like he does me. We know each other well enough to be able to talk honestly and determine from time to time a plan for the immediate future as well as the long term. He empowers me to be the main force behind this plan as he knows that the plan has then more chance of success. His way is not just to depend on the 'chemical straight jacket' that has been so popular over the past few decades. He is a good man, who in my case, does a very good job despite colleagues and superiors who still hang onto the old ways of keeping the client in their place, with heavy medication whether it is warranted or not. Just in case, so to speak.

Oliver, who am I to comment on the value of your own therapy whatever it is? Not only am I not a therapist myself, I don't know you or what, if any, problems you have. I would never say otherwise. However, if you scratch me a little further I might speculate a bit that your guy's, rightly or wrongly, demonized his 'colleagues and superiors' quite handily. Is it warranted? I don't know. But I tend to think not. I'm a bit conservative when it comes to slagging whole groups of people (except premies of course!)

Yes, I must admit that I and a few others may have a chip on our shoulders about psychiatry. In my case this is after twenty years since being initially diagnosed incorrectly as a paranoid schizophrenic, and I was treated as one for three years until it dawned on 'them' that they had made a mistake. If you don't know how horrific the medication that is prescribed to a schizophrenic can be, just ask the next one who you have to appear for in court. It's horrific stuff. What's more no one ever said, sorry, we made a mistake. Shrinks don't do that. They don't know it all but they like to make the patient and the public think they do, and the ongoing maintenance of their little empires are reliant on this attitude. In my experience the majority of psychiatrists do indeed suffer from a real lack of knowledge of the human condition, as evidenced by their cavalier attitude to my treatment over the years. Interestingly enough, in my country they have the highest rate of suicide in any of the medical professions which sure gives 'food for thought' regarding their mental condition as well.

What can I say to that? First, you may be right and your general criticism may be warranted. On the other hand, even if it isn't and you just got seriously shortchanged -- if indeed you did -- nothing I could tell you about all the other shrinks would likely make much difference.

You know, it's like people I meet who've been burned by lawyers or judges before. What can I tell them? That we're not all like this or that? Well sometimes I do. But sometimes it just seems futile.

It is gratifying to read you state that that there are specific mental maladies that they are able to treat, that they are able to diagnose, and successfully treat once and a while. I agree, why don't we talk about those cases. What was the illness, treatment and are the patients leading a happy and fulfilled existence? I love a positive story.

I know lots of people who've been successfully treated, often medicinally, for mental problems of various sorts. I'm sorry but I assume you do too and I'm not going to play this game of trying to find examples for what I'd hope you'd agree is really not that uncommon.

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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 16:33:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fucked up the end, too late to change, gotta go!
Message:
The last sentence above was mine, the rest yours.
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 18:21:52 (GMT)
From: Oh my!
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fucked up the end, too late to change, gotta go!
Message:
Gad, what i understood the subject line to mean was that 'you' had been........weel, shall we say 'buggered'?
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Date: Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 19:46:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Oh my!
Subject: Hey, you should prick up your ears! (nt)
Message:
gggggg
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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 19:59:20 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: on our interpretations/mis-interpretations!
Message:
This is an example a of a blatantly obvious...to me... misinterpretation:

I just got around to responding to posts on the psychiatry thread and it went inactive:

Cq wrote to me:

>One question I have for you, though:

You say: 'It is foolish to think or imply that all kids who take Ritalin do not truely benefit from it.'

Are you sure you can speak for ALL?<

Carpe diem!
carol

Sheesh!!! I am not implying I speak for all.

I was trying to state a response to your comments in which I thought you were saying that no one is benefitted by it, by saying that, in other words: YOU cannot imply that NO one receive benefits from taking Ritalin (or other drugs).

So much misinterpretation goes on here, as I suppose it does everywhere! But here it seems to cause more friction and taking sides.

I have to go away a few days...this eats up my time too much, well more than I really want anyway!

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Date: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 16:46:57 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: carpe diem???
Message:
Carol, for the record and to put things in context, here's what I posted in full (and I hope it clears up any possible misunderstandings):


Carol, it's true that I object to the automatic use of drugs as a cure-all for all forms of psychiatric disorder. Too often the ones who are prescribed those drugs are not even listened to, let alone asked their opinion, if they object to the treatment they are prescribed. Any objection to that tends to be seen as merely yet another symptom of their illness.

But there are many forms of psychiatric disorder. Personally I can only speak of the experience I have had at the receiving end of the Mental Health system here in the UK. (I'll be posting more about this on the 'Anything Goes' forum soon).

If Ritalin suits your child's needs, and, as you say, 'it is his choice as well as ours', then the decisions appear to be in the hands of the right people - i.e. the ones who are most affected by the situation. If it works for you and yours, then all well and good.

My gripe (for want of a better word) is with those who implement the various procedures that demand medication AS A PREREQUISITE, rather than an additional option, for treatment of mental illnesses.

Psychiatry today almost always presumes the need for medication (at least it does when the patient is referred to the State Authorities for treatment). Those who can afford their own psychoanalyst are in a totally bandwagon, IMO.

One question I have for you, though:

You say: 'It is foolish to think or imply that all kids who take Ritalin do not truely benefit from it.'

Are you sure you can speak for ALL?

That's what I posted to you.

My disaffection with the mental health system in the UK may be an isolated example of one person's experience. But that's how it was for me, and that's how I tell it.

There ARE issues which need examining - especially regarding the power the State can exercise over people who are even just suspected of mental illness. Even criminals have more rights in the UK. To quote from the very thorough site at http://www.hyperguide.co.uk/mha/effect.htm


'The Mental Health Act is perhaps a unique piece of legislation, in that a person can be deprived of their liberty when they have neither committed a crime, nor
appeared before a court. Once detained, a person can be subjected to treatment which would otherwise be regarded as assault.

Amongst other conditions, people are normally detained because this is deemed to be in the interests of their own health and safety and/or because it is possible that
other people may be at risk from the person's behaviour. The person may never have done themselves or anyone else any harm; an informed suspicion (on the part
of only 2 or 3 people) that they might do so, is sufficient.

In dealing with the Act, it is necessary to retain this perspective. The safeguards which exist in the Act need to be rigorously applied, but even then they are relatively
weak - at least in the early stages of detention - compared with the process which is followed prior to depriving a criminal of his/her freedom.'

This topic of mental health and illness is a very wide one, and I have no reason to doubt you when you post about your own experiences and how treatment has benefitted you and your child.

However, as far as the wider issues of the control of the mentally ill are concerned, not everything in the garden is as rosy as some might LIKE to think.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 20:25:45 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: your insights were mine also
Message:
The threads and posts get so twisted don't they? I wasn't even going to post to that thread because I have been ridiculed so often on here for even mentioning my disorder.

I think both of us were responding to negative generalities and blanket statemets about shrinks and meds Carol. Not the other way around.

oh hell, it's the internet. I posted O, most forums are like this.
It is exhausting. I am only here a lot because I can keep a seperate window open and do my other work at my strange hours.

Breaks are healthy. Sorry to see you go. But do what is best for you.

Take care of yourself. I have quit posting that I am quitting forum because I never do. :)
email me anytime.
love,
Selene

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 20:49:33 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: your insights were mine also
Message:
I lost your e-mail, send me a message.

salam_au@iprimus.com.au

take care of yourself.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 10, 2000 at 20:51:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: it's on the way Salam
Message:
Heard about your computer crash ... yuck.
isn't windoze the worst OS ever?
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