Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 12:48:05 (GMT)
From: Aug 13, 2000 To: Aug 22, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


Sir Dave -:- He's not arrogant - he's magic! -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 13:37:13 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Thanks (nt) -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 13:47:27 (GMT)

Loaf -:- Its all falling into place !! -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:01:43 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Thanx for that Lurkex and Loaf -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:43:51 (GMT)
__ __ Lurkex -:- What winds him up the most -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 11:54:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- What winds him up the most -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 19:07:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- He also can't tolerate people disagreeing with him -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 17:05:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- What? -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 21:37:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- This isn't new -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 22:05:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Thanks (nt) -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 22:24:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- like father like son. -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 13:02:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ EddyTheTurtle -:- like father like son.? Dates?? -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 14:15:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- like father like son.? Figs?? -:- Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 04:10:44 (GMT)

Jim -:- I found it! I found it! The dumbest thing ever! -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 02:07:56 (GMT)
__ Shroomananda -:- If that's the dumbest thing ever, then you haven't -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:07:31 (GMT)
__ __ TD -:- Isn't it interesting that premies use Maharaji ... -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:06:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Frighteningly kindergarten don't you think? -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:19:02 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- What an arrogant little snot you are! -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:58:00 (GMT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- The m conundrum -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 04:22:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ The doubter -:- The inner search -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:58:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ X -:- The inner search -:- Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 05:12:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- The inner search -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:15:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Another arrogant unlived premie -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 09:14:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ The doubter. -:- Another arrogant unlived person? -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 09:37:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Another arrogant unlived person? -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:15:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ The doubter -:- Another arrogant unlived person? -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:47:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Another arrogant unlived person? -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 12:22:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ The doubter -:- Another arrogant unlived person? -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 14:48:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Why did you chose that handle? -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:12:19 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Stand up, Shroom. No need to bow to anyone here -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:30:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- It is clear shroom- Mhahahh gives peace -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 06:57:40 (GMT)

Joe -:- Prem Pal Claims to be god -- for the record -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 19:04:29 (GMT)
__ The doubter -:- For the record - here is my belief -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:18:42 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- For the record - here is my belief -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 18:32:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ The doubter -:- For the record - here is my belief -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 19:30:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Maharaji the Liar.... -:- Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 19:49:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ The doubter -:- About lying -:- Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 08:17:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're lying now, Doubter! -:- Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 01:36:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ The doubter -:- Who is lying? -:- Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 08:04:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- To FA about the doubter -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 21:10:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, please, who is O and who is Shroom? -:- Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 01:50:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- To FA about Shroom. I vote him OUT! -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 22:07:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- the question is can you have it? -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 20:19:44 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- For the record - here is my belief -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 09:51:26 (GMT)
__ __ Kjarne -:- For the record - here is my belief -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:26:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Kjarne - a question or two... -:- Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 19:01:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ The doubter -:- Kjarne - a question or two... -:- Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 14:41:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Elaine, if you went to a fine restaurant to have -:- Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 23:01:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Elaine, if you went to a fine restaurant to have -:- Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 15:54:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And why do you think that is? -:- Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 16:20:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- And why do you think that is? -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 00:27:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- PS :Shroom - a question.... -:- Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 16:12:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- My faith is based upon my experience, Elaine. -:- Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 19:01:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Why call it faith?Isn't it knowing. -:- Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 00:43:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- For the record - here is my belief -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 09:57:26 (GMT)
__ Lazoune -:- About he was? -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:13:49 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Huh? -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:43:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lazoune -:- Huh? -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 21:06:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Huh? -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 21:11:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lurkex -:- Huh to the nth degree... -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:14:31 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- he never realy meant that. It was all those Indian -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 19:40:56 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Ye...he didn't mean it -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:49:34 (GMT)

Joe -:- Maharaji and the Naked Lady Sprawled on the Bed -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 18:29:12 (GMT)
__ Anon -:- Maharaji and the Naked Lady Sprawled on the Bed -:- Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 09:27:20 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Maharaji and the Naked Lady Sprawled on the Bed -:- Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 15:09:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Bill, sent you an email with my address, thanks.nt -:- Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 00:26:01 (GMT)
__ bill -:- NOT TRUE. Joan Apter was there. -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 02:59:55 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- I'd love to hear the tape.... -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 18:57:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- I'd love to hear the tape.... -:- Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 04:12:25 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Beware of low moral standard.. Fear them!!! -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 00:00:10 (GMT)
__ Zelda -:- Maharaji and the Naked Lady = desparate of you Jo -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:31:18 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Also, 'phallid' is not a word.. -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:52:24 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Get off it, Zelda.....and get a clue. GEEEZ -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:40:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- You do have to wonder -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 22:42:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Kjarne -:- Big deal? -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 07:52:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You do have to wonder - and I do -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 00:14:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Kjarne -:- You do have to wonder - and I do -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 07:57:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Questionable moral standards wrt house guests? -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 00:26:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Good Point.... -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 23:03:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Good Point.... -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:59:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Good Point......I agree.. -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 17:20:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- just curious, la-ex -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 04:11:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, Zelda, it's kind of funny, don't you think? -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 22:11:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- ok Joe- I missed the point of you post -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 23:32:04 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Also..../Glen Whittaker -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 18:36:09 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Also..../Glen Whittaker -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 19:35:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lurkex -:- Don't get me started about Glen Whittaker -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:27:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, I love the stories too -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:38:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- You could do a Nick Hornby on dlm easy jim (nt) -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:23:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Is that the same as Hornby OO trainsets? nt -:- Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 00:30:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Who's that? (nt) -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 13:33:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Author of Hi-Fidelity -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 17:56:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hi Fidelity was a great book.... -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 18:16:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ IM -:- I'll take it with me next week -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 20:03:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- oops! The above post was from me (nt) -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 20:04:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- talk about freudian typos -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 22:47:46 (GMT)

Jorge -:- 'My dad was a premie', or 'It's all in the eye of -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 14:09:41 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Interesting.....Maharaji as God -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 17:54:27 (GMT)
__ __ Kjarne -:- Interesting.....Maharaji as God -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:06:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- The Cruel and Egotistical Maharaji. -:- Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 00:01:04 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Interesting.....Maharaji as God -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 00:35:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lurkex -:- Interesting.....Maharaji as God -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:30:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Interesting.....Maharaji as God -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 23:40:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's hilarious ....PAPAM (nt) -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 04:21:21 (GMT)

buzz -:- mahraji's father and the radha swami sect -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:17:57 (GMT)
__ sam -:- mahraji's father and the radha swami sect -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 02:56:44 (GMT)
__ __ buzz -:- mahraji's father and the radha swami sect -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 04:12:41 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- I think you should check the link buzz.. -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:27:58 (GMT)
__ __ buzz -:- I think you should check the link buzz.. -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:36:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- How about just saying -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 07:24:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- It sounds very similar -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 14:53:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I know I have been in a cave for two long, -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 17:03:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Terry -:- buzz -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 22:22:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Happy -:- Swarupanand -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 14:33:52 (GMT)

Jim -:- Intercepted thought-dialogue of Midwich Cuckoos -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 05:04:51 (GMT)
__ buzz -:- Intercepted thought-dialogue of Midwich Cuckoos -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 05:45:24 (GMT)

Gregg -:- Wisdom from the Shroom -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 02:30:21 (GMT)
__ Shroomananda -:- I can't respond to everybody, Gregg. See some -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 02:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ Shroomananda -:- On second thought, Gregg, I'll respond to you -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 03:14:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- So, then, Mr. Shroom... -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 15:21:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Yer a fuckin liar, Nil, here's way -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 14:48:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ EddyTheTurtle -:- Shroo...here is my answer/One legged Stool -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 12:25:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- So you still see 'light' and believe in Masters? -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 17:01:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ EddyTheTurtle -:- You seem set in your ways -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 17:22:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Food for thought -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 16:56:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- God as person -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 18:27:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- What's your point? -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:23:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- my point -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 21:10:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- See? You WERE talking about God (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 22:13:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- In the other thread? No, I wasn't, -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 22:33:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh come on! -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 22:46:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- onanism? -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 23:02:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Church Lady -:- The dreaded dangers and sin of onanism -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 23:37:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- The dreaded dangers and sin of onanism -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 07:03:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Great post to wake up to - thank you! :-) (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 13:33:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- On second thought, Gregg, I'll respond to you -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:09:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Answer my question -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 04:43:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- In my ignorance of the English language, I -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 05:03:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- In your ignorance -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 11:43:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- really -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 05:27:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ not THIS again -:- where have I heard this story before? -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 05:12:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ TeddyTheTurtle -:- where have I heard this story before? -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 16:31:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- didn't know Charles Cameron was a bus driver -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 17:37:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- oh never mind I think I got it -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 17:54:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- That's a damn lie and here's the proof! -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 11:16:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What possible reason do you have for saying this? -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 15:02:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- What possible reason do you have for saying this? -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 16:45:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That is extremely unfair of you, Dave -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 02:31:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Life is unfair isn't it -:- Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:58:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- I've never heard of this Rob guy or this bus -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 17:14:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Something not quite right about that -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:03:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- curiouser and curiouser -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:39:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Oh no! -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 11:41:42 (GMT)
__ __ Sir David -:- I can't respond to everybody, Gregg. See some -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 03:01:32 (GMT)

Ben Lurking -:- mush-Shrooms -:- Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 21:29:10 (GMT)
__ Shroomananda -:- Sounds like the definition of an 'ex' premie to me -:- Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 23:50:13 (GMT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Sounds like the definition of an 'ex' premie to me -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 21:12:45 (GMT)
__ __ Coach -:- Sounds more like a broken record to me. -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 02:35:10 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- amanuensis -:- Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 00:05:32 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 13:37:13 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: He's not arrogant - he's magic!
Message:
and I won't hear a word said against him.

Click here for more amazing pictures of the magic mushroom person

See what knowledge can do for you? How can we doubt such a fine example as this!

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 13:47:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Thanks (nt)
Message:
hhhhh
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:01:43 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: All the Premies
Subject: Its all falling into place !!
Message:
Lukex wrote of M in a post below :

'He really is nasty. I mean, he could have had a better personality and still have been taking us for a ride, but he's so crudely controlling and demeaning and narcissistic that the best cure is to get a bit closer to him, as I did (not a PAM, but a PAPAM).'

And I now realise why the 'security' issue and service around him has always been a big deal.

It is to keep people away from him - but not for his good - more a damage limitation excercise.

Unless contact with him is controlled and limited - then he would quickly becomeless un-special.

It is his social standing - status games and control over his appearances which present the illusion of the 'master' as a different animal.

However - it is fair to say that this psychological guilded cage is also a prison for him - and is giving rise to many of the issues which manifest themselves around him :

social climbing pyramid
culture of fear and control
synchronisation = gratitude farming
smart cards = increased customer interface
broadcasts and seperation of M from 'reality'
amaroo and the 'special place' trap.

The higher the stage is built- the further to fall, and the harder you cling on.

Its the psychological effect of a socio-theatrical device.

That sounded good and wordy.

Best wishes to all the feelgood factors out there.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:43:51 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Thanx for that Lurkex and Loaf
Message:
That just confirms almost exactly the mapping I'd made, but always nice to get confirmation.

As we all know when confronted with bloated arrogance on this scale, one of the best ways to deflate is to take the piss big time. Lurkex could you give us some descriptions of what exactly winds him up the most?

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 11:54:06 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: What winds him up the most
Message:
I don't know what winds him up the most. I'm an ex-PAPAM, not an ex PAM. And my friend who was an ex-PAM has gone back to the fold (after spilling some unbelievable beans).

I would hazard a guess, though, that what winds him up the most is when he feels powerless. The time I saw him the most angry was at the Tucson Conference when he verbally abused the instructors into shock states. I was in the vicinity. I ask myself, why would he blast them (and others in his close service)? Because they are not getting the results that he feels he deserves to get and he is terrified of feeling ineffective and powerless and dumps his self-rage out on them (formerly us).

I'm outa here for a week or more. Enjoy freedom!

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 19:07:42 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: What winds him up the most
Message:
I agree with you that when Maharaji felt that he wasn't getting what was deserving of the perfect master, and that was when things weren't going well, he got extremely demanding and abusive.

I have told the story of him abusing those 'serving' him in a shocking manner about how the stage should be built at Hans Jayanti Festival in 1979. The premies presented him a mock-up of the stage, which he hated, but he wouldn't say HOW he wanted it. The premies kept offering suggestions and he kept abusing them in a matter I found very fightening. Since these people believed he was the incarnation of god to whom they were trying to dedicate their lives, they were VERY vulnerable to his abuse and were unable to defend themselves. I remember feeling so relieved that his abuse wasn't happening to me. I had a strong feeling that I wouldn't have been able to take it.

I also talked to some of the initators after the Tucson Conference that Lurkex mentioned, and others after their 'Initiator Training Program' (of IDP) which Maharaji conducted, sometimes for weeks on end in Malibu. Candy McNary told me she contemplated suicide more than once during her IDP, and others appeared to be suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. I guess he really scared the shit out of them and was psychologically abusive to them.

In restrospect, these people appeared to be suffering from the 'Stockholm Syndrome,' you know, the syndrome where kidnap victims start to identify with their kidnappers. (Think Patty Hearst.) They were terribly abused by Maharaji, but they interpreted it all as a kind of loving gift, that Maharaji was giving them what they needed. It was amazingly bizarre that they viewed abuse as a kind of caring attention. But their body language, said something very different. Lots of psychosomatic disorders among these people as well, I think as a result of the abuse.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 17:05:56 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: He also can't tolerate people disagreeing with him
Message:
Remember the 'fuck you' video. He had the needle to someone who disagreed with him on some issue and got all the instructor candidates to get into a line a say 'fuck you' This was videod.
I think it was about 1988 in Penang. For more details see the archives.
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 21:37:06 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: What?
Message:
Are you serious, where did you hear this? Does anyone have this video?
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 22:05:48 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: G
Subject: This isn't new
Message:
I was told this by one of the instructor candidates at the time. I can't remember all the details but did post them up about 2 years ago giving the name of the instructor(Lee (I forgot her second name) lives in Oz Gold Coast).

If you want the details look in the archives, I don't have the time.

Anyway it shouldn't surpise you, he is a spoilt brat and acts as one.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 22:24:27 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Thanks (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 13:02:19 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: like father like son.
Message:
Hi Lurex,
I think you can add to your list of why he explodes on people.
His father did it to the extent that little lord rawat would say that when his father was yelling his damn fool head off, everyone in the house would freeze and not move even though they werent in the same room.
He would also tell of his father seeing someone on the street...not even at a festival site or some dlm owned property
---and have his driver stop the car and he would get out and beat that guy up with a stick. rawat told that story more than once.
As lord, having a tantrum got everyone back in the line that he liked. Where he was in total control of his environment.
It was not at all neccessarily related to any other results he wanted out of people. Just that total control.

Maybe you dont know this true story. In malibu rawat lined up all the staff and walked down the line punching everyone in the stomach. When he got to one guy, a spanish guy who became an instructor and told the story in satsang, he didnt hit him. the only one rawat didnt hit. Of course the instructor told the story emphasizing how it was cause he was closing his eyes that saved him from getting hit. presumably meditating.

He went up to one security guy and said 'you guys have all your hardware (guns) but what about your software' and hit the guy in the ribs hard with one nuckle of his fist. If you do that, you can easily break someones ribs. our lord DID break the guys ribs.
Of course, as the story was related, it was another example of how powerful the lord is.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 14:15:51 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: like father like son.? Dates??
Message:
Sounds like an old story..I can imagine this happening in the 70's/80's but surely not inthe 90's?

When did it happen?

When I was around he was as sweet as pie..but mind you that was before he got married...when he was a teenager....the kind of pranks he got up to was putting shaving foam on Charanand's head and giving Biharisingh agya to eat a Kilo of Ghee....the poor guy...he had to sweat it out afterwards digging a hole in the ground...

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Date: Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 04:10:44 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: like father like son.? Figs??
Message:
The rib breaking story was from the very early eighties.

The stomach punching story was in the seventies.
The guy who was NOT hit told the story in the very early eighties and I heard him tell it.
This next story I heard in Gainseville Fla.
A couple of carpenter premies went to Malibu to work on the res and the whole community was aglow at thier amazing fortune.
Well, the two got back and didnt go to satsang anymore. Seems they had a run in with the lord. It was blistering hot and they went in for a swim. A little later the lord asked one of them if they had gone swimming and he said 'er, um' and rawat slugged him in the stomach.
Then rawat asked the next guy while the other was gasping on the ground. The next guy said 'yes' and his lordship said 'never doubt yourself' and walked away without hitting him.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 02:07:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I found it! I found it! The dumbest thing ever!
Message:
In a thread below, Shroom outdid himself once again:

To me, if you're looking for peace, you can't be tricked.

Now come on everyone. How are you ever going to top that?

Good work, Shroom!

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:07:31 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: If that's the dumbest thing ever, then you haven't
Message:
been reading some of your own posts! You either feel peace or you don't. There's no trickery involved. Let me put it another way, Jim. If you're thirsty and someone hands you a cold glass of pure water and you drink it, either your thirst is satisfied or it isn't. Is that dumb too? Of course, I guess you're an expert on 'trickery', aren't you? You know, being a lawyer and all. And, of course, being 'tricked' out of years of your life by the 'Lord of the Universe'. Yes, you're an expert all right. I bow down to your 'expertice'. You sound like an expert on being dumb too. But what do I know?
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:06:34 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Isn't it interesting that premies use Maharaji ...
Message:
... examples all the time when proving their point. Another indication that they can't think for themselves while brainwashed. I mean the ole 'glass of water' analogy. That's a classic Maharaji. Can't they give us some different analogies that shows that not all their cerebral faculties aren't in some sort of premie holding-pattern????
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:19:02 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Frighteningly kindergarten don't you think?
Message:
Having these head tapes in private is one thing, but proudly showing them off as though anyone here is going to be impressed, frightening stuff.
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:58:00 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: What an arrogant little snot you are!
Message:
So all those followers of other gurus who are also looking for peace, well they'll never have that experience eh, and as for anyone not looking for peace ever experiencing it without a path, well only you and a few dozen other people on the whole planet know.

What's it like being one of those rare individuals who are are the only ones in god's little lila lurrve party.

Still phase 2 is only just beginning and then the party will really rumble!

Well shroomie, if you think your little asides will encourage people to come to knowledge, no wonder he hasn't let anyone talk all about it for years, but then why did you think like that in the first place, ahh the wonders of gm, a little man tying himself in knots year by year by year.

Oh and by the way, all the research I've seen makes it quite plain that those searching & seeking are the most likely to make errors of fact, it's called projedction, if you then add the lila effects you're way off into psycho territory.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 04:22:04 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: The m conundrum
Message:

If you know what it is why were you looking?

Way to go shroomie ji!

You have defined the m conundrum. You have to be looking for that which you do not know and when someone tells you they just gave it to you believe them.

You see shroomie ji, the problem with your analogy is water can be measured. It is a known item. You have a belief that you have found what you were looking for but you cannot prove it.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:58:44 (GMT)
From: The doubter
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: The inner search
Message:
A few days ago, a person came for the first time to an video event in my community. She expressed; 'This is what I have searched for all my life'
How come she knew that?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 05:12:12 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: The doubter
Subject: The inner search
Message:
Some people get a good vibe from the topic of the videos.
As they listen they sense their own existence in a deeper way.
To others it is words they don't fathom or a debating game.
The best things in this life are not the result of a logical quest.
Beauty and good will exist on their own merit.
And so do we whatever the explanation may be.

X

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:15:47 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: The doubter
Subject: The inner search
Message:
Hi doubter,

What exactly do you doubt?

Anyway back to the theme. How come she knew that ? Well , how the hell could she really know that ? A person comes and is only given some vague intimations by Maha about the possibility of attaining joy, love , knowledge of the God within and suchlike. Of course the person then projects their dream onto this mysterious nollidge and powerful guroo figure. He sets it up that way by cleverly not giving out any real information thereby allowing for the new person to use their imagination of what they're going to receive.

When I actually talk to premies about what they REALLY experience with these solve-all techniques the answer is most likely VERY LITTLE if anything much at all. You see I think that we carry on holding an imagination of what the potential of meditation is. Of course we never feel like we get very far with it, but that's our fault for not surrendering enough , or because we are weak and weary. Remember that one? 'Oh my guru Maharaji, I am weak and weary and filled with the impurities of this world. Kindly save me , please protect me. I surrender the reigns of my life at your holy lotus feet, pranam Lord' YUK

You see ,it's all promises and imagination of some Nirvana state of enlightenment. Do you know any premies who have 'that joy' in any more constant way than most other people? I don't. Oh yeah sure they go and see him and come away feeling inspired to make more effort and give up cocaine or something but how long does it last? A quick fix , no different from any other quick fix. Like the superbowl or world cup final or taking ecstasy at a party or .... No different from anything else. A bit of space to be with yourself, sure nothing wrong with that but this Maha really offers no more than say Maharishi mahesh yogi. At least Maharishi is straightforward and charges a one off fee for the technique and he doesn't claim to be the highest manifestation of God or anything.

If you are still in with them and doubting--- COME ON OUT.I'm sorry to tell you that you're in a seedy little personality cult that is fading and failing. Going nowhere.
The sun still shines for me and the clouds still come too. It's no different really in that way, but I don't belong to him anymore. I am my own being, taking resposibility for how my life goes.

TRY IT YOU MIGHT LIKE IT.

Best wishes Hal

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 09:14:06 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: The doubter
Subject: Another arrogant unlived premie
Message:
Have you ever been friends with followers of other gurus?

You've never heard any of their followers saying EXACTLY the same thing and having the same feeling?

Get a life, your ideas about 'that' experience are so juvenile, the arrogance is truly awesome to behold.

I think he's a complete tosser, and I can also experience that peace and that gratitude for being alive to experience it, how can that be doubter?

The sheer lack of education or even more importantly an ability to think is truly incredible to behold in this day and age.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 09:37:03 (GMT)
From: The doubter.
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Another arrogant unlived person?
Message:
Hamzen.
I don't know you. You don't know me. Or my background.

I respect your belief. I respect the belief of followers of other teachers. Some friends of mine have other teachers, and I respect them.
I do not find proof for arrogance or unliving in my post.

It is a free will to pursue whatever you want in your life. I do not believe anyone has the right to abuse people who regard things differently.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:15:07 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: The doubter.
Subject: Another arrogant unlived person?
Message:
So what was your point about the person at the video then, if not to show how special k & m are?

IF you do respect other teachers then you know that her reaction is not unique.

It is a free will to pursue whatever you want in your life. I do not believe anyone has the right to abuse people who regard things differently.

Depends how you define abuse, I found your post abusive because it links in with all those millions of little concepts he filtered into our brains, and I read a long post of yours earlier which personally I found obscene for similar reasons.

But I suspect that really you don't like arguing, and you can't deal with anger, a typical new age/premie response.

Also if you don't know me, how do you know you respect my beliefs?

I'll say no mopre til you respond on this one.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:47:18 (GMT)
From: The doubter
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Another arrogant unlived person?
Message:
Hamzen
Just before I am out of here, I will answer a few of your questions:

I imagine the lady expressed what she felt. I asked a person a question about this. I find no abuse or arrogance in this.

My definition of abuse is to attack with harsh words or insults. I suppose that is what it means. I don't think I attacked anyone in my posts.

I believe you are a human being and you have your reasons to believe whatever you believe. I respect your belief, even if I do not agree with them. But they are none of my business. Especially since I don't know you.

In me there are doubts, in me there are convictions, in me there are concepts, in me is wisdom, in me is foolishness, in me is anger, in me is beauty and so on.

I see no reason to discuss further.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 12:22:14 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: The doubter
Subject: Another arrogant unlived person?
Message:
So if I'm a nazi who likes murdering people, you'd still respect my beliefs even if you didn't agree with them, a curiously 'nice' approach to living, but one I find completely obnoxious because it's the usual one of denial.

I'll hazard some guesses based upon three posts of yours, you're a new ager for definite, you're probably quite gentle in real life. You don't like arguing. You've had your experiences but you have no way of measuring them, so you're playing safe just in-case all the lila stuff is accurate. Am I being fair so far?

If so then you are, like all of us here, perfect abuse fodder to someone who knows how to milk those weaknesses.

You still didn't answer my questions, I'm sorry but that's the usual new age/premie avoidance tactic, and that I find obnoxious.

Gurus don't exist without people who are naive and un-educated about the abuses built into their systems, naive about the nature of so-called spiritual experiences and naive about the normalness of those experiences.

Anyone who beleives that they are special because only they can see and experience the ultimate, more than all the billions of other people on this planet, if that isn't arrogance & obnoxious I'd like to know what is?

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 14:48:57 (GMT)
From: The doubter
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Another arrogant unlived person?
Message:
A French philosopher from the French revolution once expressed something like this: 'I disagree with every word you say, but till my last breath, I will defend your right to express your thoughts'. That said, I disagree with your beliefs, I respect them, but I do not respect your attitude or actions.

It is my belief, that most human beings are more or less brainwashed. (Including myself) In general, unbiased thoughts coming from a clear reflection, are quite rare.

I am unaware of not answering your questions. I did an attempt to answer you.

Reading your posts, I am curious about your definitions of 'abuse' and 'obnoxious'. Obiously we understand these words differently.

As I previously stated, I am not interested to continue to post here at the forum, neither do I have any desire to convert your belief.

And even if I have a continious experience of knowlegde, I don't feel special or superior. However, I feel grateful.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:12:19 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: The doubter.
Subject: Why did you chose that handle?
Message:
Because you DOUBT. Don't give me the shit now that you doubt us. I dare you to have the courage to repeat some of the stuff you think about your own cult and its leader. hahahahahaha....
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:30:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Stand up, Shroom. No need to bow to anyone here
Message:
Do you have any ability whatsoever to think clearly? I doubt it. You're a simpleton.

Well I've got news for you, Shroom. I'm not going to do your thinking for you.

You're nothing but comic relief, as far as I'm concerned.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 06:57:40 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It is clear shroom- Mhahahh gives peace
Message:
and when we left him we lost peace .
What could be more simple??

It is not possible to have peace if one leaves Maraji.
I am clear on that now.
Us exes left the cult and now exist in negativity

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 19:04:29 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Prem Pal Claims to be god -- for the record
Message:
Down below, Mel says that it's ambiguous whether Maharaji claimed to be God or not. Mel, get a clue. Ambiguous? Aside from the 'greater than God' business, how about these, just for example that Maharaji said:

Divine Times, 1973: There has never been a time when the Lord of Creation did not manifest Himself in human form, and come to this planet Earth to do away with evil and spread the True Knowledge. But history is a pendulum which is always in swing. There have been so many scriptures, but still people have never been able to understand Him.

1974: That depends on me what gear I want you to work. Everything depends on me. Not even a leaf moves a millimetre without my wish.

1978: Look it's beyond liberation. It's beyond all those things. Beyond all concepts. In this lifetime, we have the opportunity to realize, to be with GURU MAHARAJ JI. Be it not GURU MAHARAJ JI - You know maybe they didn't call him GURU MAHARAJ JI - Maybe they called him Lord, anything to be with that power. To be with that thing. To be not infinite. And yet to be with the infinite. To be here as individuals. And yet to be able to be next to the person who is everything, GURU MAHARAJ JI. The Lord all powerful.

It's been said that Guru Maharaj Ji comes, or God comes into the world, when there is a decline in religion. God comes, Guru Maharaj Ji comes, and helps the world.(Denver, Colorado; October 12, 1974.)

And there are many more, and this doesn't even get into the ACTIONS Maharaji took to reinforce that he was God, the devotional songs we sung to him, how he ADDED the line that he was the 'superior power in person' to Arti, and on and on.

Mel, your statements don't pass the laugh test and neither do Maharaji's. Who, other than someone who claimed to be the incarnation of god would say and do those things?


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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:18:42 (GMT)
From: The doubter
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: For the record - here is my belief
Message:
Joe

Everybody is free to believe whatever they want. When I came to knowledge I heard a lot of 'satsang'. It became obious to me that some people seemed to talk from their experience, some talked from what they heard or thought they heard and indians talked from their cultural background.
An interesting thing is that those very few people in my community who tended to express something like Maharaji is god, are not following Maharaji anymore.

In your quotes Joe, I do not find any quote where Maharaji actually says he is god. He describes the role model of the lord, a person who is one with the creator. In my understanding there is a big difference between 'god' and 'lord'.

During the history of mankind, there have been a few persons whose followers claimed their teacher was the son of god. the master, the guru, the messiah, the budda, or whatever; i.e. the lord of their time. Obviously their 'lords' should be all powerful. The problem is that none of them seemed to be powerful at all.

Maybe there is an irony in this story? For most human beings the lord is a nobody; just a normal person, commonly believed to be a person who deceives his followers. Still the followers believed that their teacher was the savior. For anybody else, the lords had no value or significance. Just a con man.

In Europe there was a sect in the seventies, who partly based their belief of Jean Paul Satres philosophy. They claimed that the only thing that exists is God. Thus they said 'I exist'. Their conclusion was, 'I am, therefore I am god'. How ridiculous they were, did they lie?

What do I believe?
Basically my belief is rooted in the experiences I have.
I know I had the experiences of nothing more or less than what is the infinite. I believe that god is infinite.
I know I have experienced the power that keeps me alive. I believe god is that power.
To me it is obious that the source of my experiences is through the knowledge of Maharaji. How and why, I have no idea.

Do I believe Maharaji is a liar? The definition of a liar is a person who knowingly utters falsehood. As I believe, he believed in what he said, I don't think he is a liar. Is the FAQ filled with lies. I don't think so.

Do I believe Maharaji is the lord? I really don't care.

I care about the fact that the promises he gave me, were fulfilled.

This is my statement.
And my belief.
I don't bother to discuss this.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 18:32:28 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: The doubter
Subject: For the record - here is my belief
Message:
Sure, people are free to believe whatever they want, even after hearing overwhelming evidence to the contrary. But you know what? That's what people in a cult do. That's what a cult is. It means you ignore, don't recall, make vague, repress, etc., anything that undermines your cult-beliefs, which are paramount to anything else. If it weren't for this process, there wouldn't be cults, and there wouldn't be any premies either.

And the other thing that cult-members do, like you and Kjarne are now apparently doing, is that when they are presented with overwhelming evidence that their leader is a fucking liar, that he many times claimed to be god and now denies he ever did, they split from the discussion, because it's just too damn confronting. That's what they do. And I know this, because I used to be a cult-member just like you and did the very same thing. But it felt really, really good to stop doing that, and I recommend you give it a try.

Come on. Can you at least imagine that you can have an experience of 'knowledge' without Maharaji? Why do you need him, and how can you trust him if he lies?

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 19:30:39 (GMT)
From: The doubter
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: For the record - here is my belief
Message:
Joe
Re my post I am not going to discuss the content of that..

However you asked some questions
Q
Can I imagine to have an experience of Knowlegde without Maharaji:
A: I can very well imagine that, the question is can I have it. When I sincerely review my 'successes and failures' in my life since I received knowledge, and even before I came to knowledge, it seems pretty clear to me that Maharaji was the key when I felt most joy in my life. He was also the person who by his words helped me and encouraged me when I was down. Honestly for me it has been like that.

Q: Why do I need him, ?
A: I don't need him, however I am trying to benefit from what he offers me. Thus I make some choices in my life. But the choices are mine.

Q: How can I trust him if he lies?

A: As I stated , I dont think he lies.

By the way, I don't think I have met a person who never lied. For instance, I am sorry to say this, but some of what is said here at the forum is lies; i.e. the Monica /mistress story, which Jim once admitted was an invented story when this forum stared, but as he said it was likely to have happened.

And so said, I have doubts. However it is a difference between doubt (beling undecided,, uncertain or hesitating to believe) and disbelieving

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Date: Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 19:49:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: The doubter
Subject: Maharaji the Liar....
Message:
Look, I also am not going to argue with you about the fact that you like Maharaji or like what he does for you. I once thought the same thing, and I know there is not point arguing about it. As I said, you are free to believe whatever you want.

But regarding lying, Maharaji is clearly lying. You can't possibly read those quotes in light of his current, blatant denials and not conclude he is lying. You just can't.

Okay, so the question is, does it matter? Yes probably no one has ever gone through life without lying. And sometimes you have to lie because it's for a higher purpose, like saving someone's life, or your own, or something like that.

But Maharaji wasn't doing that. And it wasn't some kind of 'white lie.' He is lying about something very significant to both him and his followers. The fact that he claimed to be the incarnation of God caused me and a lot of others to do things that we wouldn't have otherwise done, that we think, screwed up our lives, and caused a lot of damage to us, to our families, etc. Now, the fact that Maharaji lies about it just rubs salt into the wound, and it calls everything he says into question, whether you like him or not.

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Date: Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 08:17:52 (GMT)
From: The doubter
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: About lying
Message:
Joe

To lie, you have to knowingly tell something which is false A statement is not a lie, (even if it is untrue), when the person who comes with such a statement believes it to be true. Those statements clearly indicates in my opinion that Maharaji promotes the role of a person who is 'with the infinite'. It seems to me that Maharaji believed so. Everything he said and did, supports such an assumption.

I find it intersting that Micheal Dettmers and Bob Mishler at at one point in their lives, did not support such a belief anymore. Once I talked to Bob, and he was quite convincing in promoting Maharaji as the 'lord' even if he did not use such a word. And then still after 'converting' from such a belief, they continued to be presidents of Maharajis organisation. This is according to what I read here, and they tried to convince Maharajis to change his role. In my eyes, they at that point lost their 'virginity' i.e. they thought it was a fake, and yet they continued their job and tried to adjust their 'product'.

Anyway, Maharaji has changed his style, but still he promotes the same ideas. The change, as far as I see it, is that whoever he is, (and I don't know who) it seems like he wants people to understand from their realisation the value of him as a master and the value of knowledge. (oposed to the brainwashing system in 'satsang'). I think this is the reason he stopped premies from giving 'satsang'.

A person is whatever he is, regardless of what people think or say. If you were gay, and people thought of you as hetro, (or oposite) you still would be what you are. Same with Maharaji. If I think he is a fraud, it does not make him one. If I think he lies, it does not make him a liar. In fact, in most instances I think only a person himself, for sure can tell if he is lying or not. As I said to be a liar, it is not enogh to tell something which is untrue. The liar is knowing what he tells is false.

To believe is a strong thing. I call myself 'The doubter' beacause it is a pretty accurate description of my state of being. Yet for for a short time of a few weeks in my life, night and day, awake and asleep, I really believed. For some reson I was able to believe that every breath was THE gift just for me to enjoy. And I believe (or in retrospect I actually know), that without Maharaji, I could never have achieved such a state of being. At that time, I remember I landed in Houston (Millenium) airport with a lot of premies. And I could see and I knew that almost absolutely everyone was faking.

Maharaji, by his words, had made me believe, and believe me, I believed. So for you, those quotes you give, is pure bullshit, for me they express something I once understood.. And yet, today I don't understand them, because understanding is a such deep thing. But those words make me long. Those words make you angry, they make me grateful

So you think Maharaji is lying. I think he is a sincere person with a lot of integrity. I have listened quite carefully to what he has said, and so far I have not caught him lying. However I respect what you believe, I hope you can respect my ideas without calling me a moron.

So actually there is nothing to discuss, except to understand that we have different beliefs and perspectives. But still, I believe, it is sign of quality and even healthy to try to understand and even listen to each other.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 01:36:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: The doubter
Subject: You're lying now, Doubter!
Message:
the Monica /mistress story, which Jim once admitted was an invented story when this forum stared, but as he said it was likely to have happened.

I never said any such thing. You're simply lying about that.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 08:04:00 (GMT)
From: The doubter
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Who is lying?
Message:
I don't know who is lying. I wrote according to what I once read. If I misunderstood, I apologize.
Anyway I find this story strange.
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 21:10:25 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: To FA about the doubter
Message:
FA,

The doubter mentions the time that Jim made a statement about the Monica Lewis story that was misinterpreted by some premie. The doubter is probably that very premie who is now posting under a different name. Is there anyway you can prevent premies posting here under new names? And, while I'm at it, how long must we endure Shroom's useless posts?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 01:50:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Yes, please, who is O and who is Shroom?
Message:
I'm more than happy to spin my wheels once in a while with these foolish cult members. But, at the very least, we should know if they've already had a few turns around the park. That's what the rules say, isn't it?

So here we have Shroom admitting that he posted before under another name. What name was that?

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 22:07:46 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: To FA about Shroom. I vote him OUT!
Message:
enough satsang. He wants to re-convert ex-premies...

hahahhaha...ROFL

I agree with you Way. How are you? ;)

SB

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 20:19:44 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: The doubter
Subject: the question is can you have it?
Message:
from your and Joe's posts:

Q
Can I imagine to have an experience of Knowlegde without Maharaji?

A:
I can very well imagine that, the question is can I have it?

Look sweetheart, you're talking to people who have received the 'knowledge', who have practiced the 'knowledge' and who HAVE, no matter how you might like to deny it, EXPERIENCED the 'knowledge'.

Do you think we just 'imagined' it?


Yes, it WAS Maharaji's mahatmas/instructors/agents/DVD operators, call them what you will, who imparted the techniques of meditation that, coupled with the directive to place Maharaji on a pedestal of some sort, constitute the 'knowledge'. Does that make it 'his' knowledge?

Personally, I have nothing against people who are interested in exploring all avenues of meditative experience.

It's only when their exploration of WHO THEY REALLY ARE (and WHAT MEDITATION REALLY IS in all its myriad forms) comes to a full and resounding stop, as it does with the Maha, that I start to find fault with a system that claims to be the be-all and end-all of religious experience.

We are here for our own personal exploration into what is real. A true seeker would regard that as being requisite for the journey into his/her self. If you choose to accept a blatant falsehood for reality, then be prepared for the back-lash that you'll continue to receive from the rest of us. Some of us HAVE woken up. And some consider it a part of their duty to give others their early morning call.


There are exes who might have their own reasons for being more hurtful than most while attempting to shake you out of the seductive dream-world that surrounds the Maha. Perhaps they can remember how deluded they used to be, and have trouble accepting their memories of who/what they were.

Others have less trouble accepting the folly of their former delusion. You'll meet all sorts on this discussion forum.

At the end of day, you have only your pride to confront. And will your pride stop you from at least CONSIDERING that Maharaji might not be all that he's made out to be?

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 09:51:26 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: The doubter
Subject: For the record - here is my belief
Message:
And my belief.
I don't bother to discuss this

You just did. You come here to 'discuss' your feeling and beliefs, do you not? You have doubts and you should have them. Is just a belief, and Lard has no business presenting K as the ultimate truth because simply, it isn't. Enjoy your stay doubter, and I hope that what happen to me happens to you. I began to read this forum and the info on Lard helped me found out what a fake he is. Think about it. Why you DO have 'THAT' experience? Isn't because Lard repeated two million times that you should have it? Yes. You were programmed to believe and accept the package. He got you, just as he did with us, ex-premies. Do you know how good it feels to leave the cult? It's fabulous! If you think you experience freedom now taste the real freedom, the one you have forgotten. Lost somewhere in the past. Do you remember what you felt about yourself and your circumstances before becoming Lard's devotee? LARD SNATCHED YOUR BRAIN AND FILLED IT WITH 'BEAUTIFUL' CONCEPTS. Didn't he?

Lard's world sucks! IT IS A CULT ADORING A MORTAL GREEDY BEING.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:26:22 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: The doubter
Subject: For the record - here is my belief
Message:
Very good post, the doubter. I go for this one.

That said, I am now out of this site.

Regards

Kjarne
still a premie and beliver of Maharaji!!

Nice to have met you!!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 19:01:44 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Kjarne or other premies
Subject: Kjarne - a question or two...
Message:
OK Kjarne,

You're a believer in Maharaji...

Can you answer me how you deal with the facts that are here that these techniques are not 'his'. - but he pretty much makes it seem that they are his exclusive domain? This is not an attack.

Maybe you haven't read much on the Rodhisoami stuff - but it's very clear the techniques ARE NOT EXCLUSIVE to Maharaji.

I'm sorry I haven't read your other posts - maybe someone has already asked you.

And while I have you here...
Kjarne, sorry - maybe someone has already asked you again ---could you articulate why you are a believer in M? And what is it you actually believe - and why - I would like concrete answers -- not like some of my friends say --'because'.

Any other premies reading this I would love answers to those simple questions. And may I direct you to a post below of mine under one from P-man

Thank you,
Sincerely,
Elaine

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Date: Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 14:41:45 (GMT)
From: The doubter
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Kjarne - a question or two...
Message:
I have not read a lot about the Rodhisoami stuff - but you say it's very clear the techniques ARE NOT EXCLUSIVE to Maharaji.

So what, the techniques do they have such a big importance?

To me I think I periodically gave knowledge at least a fair chance. At those moments I really understood, I found the combination of Maharaji and the techniques he gave me, to be 'a winning team'. I have no idea who he is, but sometimes I got a glimpse of his uniqueness. For those who want to, I sense there is a lot to receive.

I don't claim to understand a lot, but when I can feel a joy bubbling within me, in spite of all the misery I may focus on, I feel pleased with Maharaji, no matter what others might say.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 23:01:35 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Elaine, if you went to a fine restaurant to have
Message:
your favorite gourmet meal and the meal was excellent and satisfied your hunger, would you not thank the chef for creating it? Would it matter where or from whom he learned how to cook the meal? Or the ingrediants involved or how he put them together?

I practice Knowledge and listen to Maharaji because it is enjoyable to do so. Why all the questioning? If it doesn't work for you then you should move along. What difference does it make if it's the same Knowledge as what Christ or Buddha or Krishna gave? If you feel peace and stillness from practicing and you still enjoy listening to Maharaji, you should do so. If not, then you shouldn't. I'm not saying not to question but if Knowledge works for you, isn't that the answer you're looking for with all your questions?

At any rate, I enjoyed your description of your incredible meditation experience. I'm jealous. I've had Knowledge for 18 years and never felt the universe explode like that or Maharaji's face appear within me! Good luck to you.

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Date: Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 15:54:22 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Elaine, if you went to a fine restaurant to have
Message:
Well, yes, I understand your point about thanking the chef and I have stated I am very glad M came to the US and in the 70's showed me how to meditate.

So say, I go back to the kitchen and find the chef is claiming the recipe is his creation and is planning to make bundles of money saying that --when it clearly was not at all his recipe?

I also appreciate your calmness - if you like it fine, if not fine - I paraphrase.

I can't help but think there is more to consider here. If, indeed, Maharaji is a crook or deluded or whatever or just generally unloving to his followers and unresponsive to their questions...possibly - premies could be deluding themselves and they could be having fabulous experiences following someone else or NOT following/believing in someone else.

Personally - my 'God-center' is within me and no one stands between me and that.

I listen to and read many teachers from spiritual ones to psycholgists
and find inspiration where I can.
M's words remind me to follow my heart and have confidence in the Creator.Amoung other things.

If I end up not being a premie - I won't be the kind that trashes him. He showed me how to go inside and being around him and his premies was beautiful - though challenging at times.

And I do understand I could have had a very similar experience at a Christian gathering. Though - the pastors I've heard speak really fall short on the inspiration - for me.

Regards,
Elaine

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Date: Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 16:20:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: And why do you think that is?
Message:
And I do understand I could have had a very similar experience at a Christian gathering. Though - the pastors I've heard speak really fall short on the inspiration - for me.

Obviously, the pastors haven't promised you the moon, like Maharaji has. They haven't told you about a secret way to experience the depth of your soul, blah, blah, blah. They haven't intimated that they're divine and that you're so, so lucky to know them.

In short, they just haven't yanked your chain hard enough. Takes a good cult leader to do that.

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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 00:27:36 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And why do you think that is?
Message:
That is such a stupid post - I should have put - I haven't heard 'many 'pastors that were that inspiring.
Because I have heard a few -in person at local churches and Dr. Charles Stanley on TV from Atlanta.

Maharaji doesn't talk about himself being divine -maybe years ago - but that wasn't what inspired me - just a simple sentence like follow your heart or go home to the peace inside of yourself. I usually don't hear ministers inspiring people about love,period.

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Date: Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 16:12:34 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Shroom
Subject: PS :Shroom - a question....
Message:
Shroom,

So, if you haven't had an experience similar to the one I described - can you tell me who/what is it you believe Maharaji is -or why do you believe what you believe - because - my friend in Hawaii has very blissful experiences but - nothing that could 'define' Maharaji - she believes he's God because he said so, in so many words - that just blisses her out and she swoons when she sees him.

But, now, just bec I've told her a few things from here ---she is SO shaken. I feel it is because she never had a profound experience other than bliss - which I will be the last person to put down. That's why she was so easily shaken in her belief system. There didn't seem to be a real foundation.

I think alot of premies are - excuse me -full of shit ---I've looked in there eyes, I've done service front stage and back stage and sat in the front row center at many programs and done service with a bunch of 'em. And I am astounded by how full of shit they are --- most don't even meditate - or at least
'really' meditate. Most 'plan their day' while sitting and feel alittle calmness.

So, I ask you, with all sincereity - what do you base your faith on?

Thank you.
Sincerely,
Elaine

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Date: Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 19:01:45 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: My faith is based upon my experience, Elaine.
Message:
As I feel every person with Knowledge should base it on. I agree that a lot of premies are foolish and phony but my experiences listening to Maharaji and practicing Knowledge, etc., are more than enough to point out the value I've received. When I don't practice, I start to feel phony myself. When I don't listen to Maharaji, I start to feel anger and frustration.

I've had numerous experiences of peace, stillness, light, sound, nectar, joy, clarity, contentment, etc. while practicing, participating and listening. I remember one time driving Mahavir, one of Maharaji's Indian instructors to a Knowledge session where he was going to reveal Knowledge to one person. As I was driving my old Dodge down the freeway, Mahavir sat in the passenger seat looking out the window and softly singing some Indian songs. I was just driving but I was getting more and more blissed out until I almost had to pull over to the side of the freeway. Another time, I was pulling weeds at Maharaji's residence in Malibu. Just pulling weeds. But I was experiencing so much joy that I couldn't believe it. I didn't give myself bliss or joy in these experiences. Frankly, I'm not capable of giving myself that kind of joy.

All I really know is that I love to feel. I love to feel love. I love to feel peace. I love to feel whole. I love to feel devotion. And Maharaji shows me how. To me, he is the ultimate devotee. As far as all the money stuff, I don't care. Maharaji does things first class. It takes money to rent the Long Beach Convention Center for three days or produce a state of the art video or broadcast a satellite event. He has said that the techniques are simple and don't work without the Master. I feel his mastery. His relentless effort to make Knowledge available is incredible to me and I'll continue to support him and listen to him as long as he keeps doing it.

Take good care of yourself.
Shroomananda

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Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 00:43:12 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Why call it faith?Isn't it knowing.
Message:
Thank you, Shroom.

It still leaves me empty,though. I want something more tangible than you got blissed out at the residence pulling weeds. I'm not belittling that - I wish it happened to me - who doesn't love that feeling. I only question - could you have experienced transforming,overflowing bliss at Medjagorie (sp?) when the Virgin Mary appeared so many times - if you were Catholic.

I have had inanimate things come alive (melting and oozing love at me) while doing service for Maharaji - was that his grace? Or was it that I believed I was serving the Lord. Which in my heart I was - so to God it doesn't make a difference - it's intent and sincerity that count. If I believed in Buddha - couldn't I get blissed out polishing a statue - I'm thinking, yes.

Are you thinking,no? ONLY being the devotee of Maharaji?

That is like putting someone in between you and God. Do you feel that's what you're doing and if so - do you feel that is necassary?

If I believe some dirt from New Mexico will cure me - won't it?

Sincerly,
Elaine

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 09:57:26 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: For the record - here is my belief
Message:
Believer of maharaji

You are an arrogante, ignorant crappy cult member darling; you are pathetic! Enjoy your secret cult while it last.

That is what you are, a sucker believer of WHO'S concepts? You were transformed in such a subtle way that you didn't even noticed what happened to you. Fool!

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:13:49 (GMT)
From: Lazoune
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: About he was?
Message:
Have you ever doubted God's non-existence? Maybe he just is. Have you ever thought of it?
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:43:42 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Lazoune
Subject: Huh?
Message:
Have you ever doubted God's non-existence?

Well, let's see if I can figure out this double-negative. How about, have I ever doubted God's existence? Yes, as a matter of fact I have. Is there anyone who hasn't? Is there a point to this question?

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 21:06:07 (GMT)
From: Lazoune
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Huh?
Message:
Just another mind-bender. Now. Since I am certain God don't exist much, the only thing I can doubt is his/her/its non-existence. Get it now? Just kidding with other's sacred superstitions. Now if you'd want to do the same to me - and I strongly advise you don't - you'd imply Hank William's holiest production sounds crummy to you.
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 21:11:43 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Lazoune
Subject: Huh?
Message:
Since I am certain God don't exist much, the only thing I can doubt is his/her/its non-existence.

How can God exist, but not much? Either God exists or doesn't exist. It's kind of an all or nothing thing. I'm afraid I don't follow what you are talking about.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:14:31 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Huh to the nth degree...
Message:
Hey, Lazoune baby, that didn't make any sense. Ca n'a rien voulu dire. Esto no tiene sentido.

Have you ever doubted the non-existence of your non-sense, if you don't mind my saying so, or not, as the case may be, or not ;)

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 19:40:56 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: he never realy meant that. It was all those Indian
Message:
mahatmas and his mum's fault. They made him say it. We only sang 'you are my mother you are my father my lord to me' before going to bed because we were afraid of mataji(or at least I was).
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:49:34 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Ye...he didn't mean it
Message:
and he also never meant the words he added to arti himself. i.e written by maharaji(premapal)

Meditation begins in THE FORM of our master
Adoration begins at the feet of out lord
Conentration begins in the words of our master
(...forgotten the rest)


The Lord is the maker of all thing created
He keeps them and brings them all home to his word
The lord is the superior power in person
I bow down before sucha womdeful lord.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 18:29:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji and the Naked Lady Sprawled on the Bed
Message:
Glen Whittaker has written a 'history' of Maharaji in the West, which many have noted avoids discussion of Maharaji's claims to be God, demand for devotion, and the entire 1973-1983 period he disposes of in a sentence or two. But what he does say, includes the following, strange entry about Maharaji's housing in the very, very beginng of his arrival in the West, I guess in 1970 or so.

The accommodation Maharaji was provided wherever he went left much to be desired...In America, while staying in a house, owned by someone of questionable moral standards, he was staying in a room which could only be accessed by going through another bedroom. One morning he opened the door to find a naked woman sprawled on the bed. He beat a hasty retreat and didn't re-emerge until he felt it was safe.

Isn't this curious? Was it because the woman was naked that Maharaji felt it wasn't 'safe?' Did the naked woman attack Maharaji? Was she weilding a weapon, or look like she was aggressive? Was she 'sprawled' on the bed in a way that made Maharaji afraid she was threatening him?

Given what we have found out about Maharaji's sexual appetite for women, does Glen imply that this shaped Maharaji's character at a young age, making him more, 'enigmatic?'

I wonder if Glen will explain.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 09:27:20 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Maharaji and the Naked Lady Sprawled on the Bed
Message:
I heard this story which, as I recall, involved a very young (13 or 14 yr old) Maharaji, who had just arrived for the first time in big bad America, being shown around a house in LA in which it was proposed that he might stay. I seem to remember that the gentleman of dubious morals (to which Glen I believe was referring) was gay or bi-sexual, and had somehow been demonstrating his affections for his partner rather too openly for the sensibilities of Maharaji. (The implication was that they were engaged in sex). That initial encounter combined with the further apparition of a fully nude woman must have combined to shock the young Maharaji into the hasty retreat of which we hear.

To be fair Maharaji was just a kid, I mean I had a similar experience when I was quite a bit older which was mildly shocking. Maharaji was also way out of his depth culturally speaking. In some ways it could be said that Maharaji was a victim of abuse of the premies who thrust him into an adult world when he was barely out of his little Indian nappies.

When I arrived in the USA for the first time, just 18, to attend the Orlando Hans Jayanti in '75, I too encountered a whole household of tripped-out, naked Hippies. My reaction was one of some initial shyness - I naturally felt somehow that the polite thing to do would be to adopt the same habits, which was difficult to do being, as I was then, still somewhat a schoolboy.

Glen was sort of 'chaperoning' Maharaji in the early 70's, and I remember him saying that he felt protective towards M. This incident from Glen's armoury of darshan stories.

Premies have always been fond of relating these kind of stories where Maharaji is shown, nobly putting up with the inconveniences of life in the World or the 'gross' behaviour of the unenlightened etc. In Glen's tale Maharaji's shy human vulnerability (rather than his extraordinary 'above-it-all-ness') is emphasised . The effect of such 'darshan' stories on premies is often to inspire further affection and even sympathy for Maharaji for his having to suffer such inconvenience, and at such a tender age.

The story is possibly also related at EV's site to explain why premies needed to embark upon the well-known (now refined) habit of procuring 'appropriate' residences for the Master. Indeed one's where he would not encounter such 'grossness'again.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 15:09:38 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Maharaji and the Naked Lady Sprawled on the Bed
Message:
Bingo Anon.
The tape fills in the gaps in the story and Joe will have it soon.
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Date: Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 00:26:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Bill, sent you an email with my address, thanks.nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 02:59:55 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: NOT TRUE. Joan Apter was there.
Message:
Joan told the story much more accurately and I told it here and I think they are trying to rewrite history on this one.

The only ones that know that story are Joan and the lord himself.
Just like rawat tries to rewrite the history of his bad treatment of his staff and his towering rages at them and his abusive disregard of his wife mom and many others, by him recently claiming proudly that his 'total disregard' of doing what is expected of him....'expected' actually meaning honesty,
ect,...

Joe, I have rawat on tape telling that story quite differently from the version you have there. Want the tape? I promise to send it this week just give me the address.
bburke@rocketmail.com.

It is off the roast of Joan Apter in nyc in 85 or 86.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 18:57:58 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I'd love to hear the tape....
Message:
I'll email you my address. Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 04:12:25 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'd love to hear the tape....
Message:
I just went to the archives, I have some other treats for you as well.
Also Jimbo is due.
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 00:00:10 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Beware of low moral standard.. Fear them!!!
Message:
The accommodation Maharaji was provided wherever he went left much to be desired...In America, while staying in a house, owned by someone of questionable moral standards, he was staying in a room which could only be accessed by going through another bedroom. One morning he opened the door to find a naked woman sprawled on the bed. He beat a hasty retreat and didn't re-emerge until he felt it was safe.

Is it dangerous to shag Monica or not?

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:31:18 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Maharaji and the Naked Lady = desparate of you Jo
Message:
joe this is supid
a 13 14 yr old boy raised in india under the thumb of his family especially his mother would run the other way.
dont try to depict him as a street- wise hormone bearing creep raised in he west who lurks to get at women at that age.
Even if he was, it might have been a strange woman

If find this line of expose really phallid.
Lets just stick to the pertinent stuff- like his taste for women as a married man, and god claim stuff.

this kind of grabbing at straws is downright stuphud

Zelda

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:52:24 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Also, 'phallid' is not a word..
Message:
Do you mean 'phallic?' You mean what I said resembles a phallus? How so?
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:40:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Get off it, Zelda.....and get a clue. GEEEZ
Message:
Geez, let's be moralistic, shall we? The point I was making, apparently not very well, was that Glen Whittaker, in his 'history of the organizations' says stupid stuff like Maharaji seeing a naked woman on a bed, but ignores things that one might be more relevent to the 'history,' like, say, Milennium, like, say, darshan, the Boeing 707 project, and stuff like that. I was being sarcastic, which appears to have been lost on you. Sorry.
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 22:42:15 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You do have to wonder
Message:
Why are they describing this incident on their internet web site? How did this story get around in the first place, did the woman tell people or did Maharaji? Why would a supposedly 'enlightened Master' even mention it? Why are they making a big deal about it? So he saw a naked woman, so what? It's strange, people usually don't talk about things like that in public.
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 07:52:12 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Big deal?
Message:
The story was mentioned in one of Maharajis new videos, when he described how he had to live the first months when he arrived to America .

It was told with a humourus smile.

Big deal?

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 00:14:03 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: G
Subject: You do have to wonder - and I do
Message:
wonder if these people in the cult ever realise how ridiculous they sound to the outside world. Talk about bad public relations. That web site is nearly as bad as Sai Baba's web site with his video of him putting a bauble into his mouth and then spitting it out again to the amazement of his ectatic devotees;

'Look, he manifested it out of thin air!'

If only Glen had told me that story about the naked woman back in the early seventies, I would have twigged that Maharaji obviously wasn't the Lord. I mean, we are all naked before God, as the saying goes. And here is the incarnation of God getting a bit disturbed by one of his naked creatures.

What a load of crap the whole trip was and still is!

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 07:57:40 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: You do have to wonder - and I do
Message:
You have a strange picture of God in your head Dave.
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 00:26:46 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Questionable moral standards wrt house guests?
Message:
Noticed that 'someone of questionable moral standards' gave him somewhere to stay. No doubt that could be construed differently today (;-), but it is trying to imply that m's moral standards are high. The harder they come . . .

And BTW, Sir Dave, did you notice that nasty PC bore Joe going on about the environmental damage done by PVC mini-skirts? Doesn't he know that stiletos can do serious damage to hard wood? ;-)

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 23:03:10 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Good Point....
Message:
Well, either it was Maharaji or the naked woman who told Glen the story, because they were apparently the only two people there. Somehow I think it was Maharaji, or else it was one of those DLM rumors, like Maharaji bringing a baby back to life in India in 1975, that spread like wildfire among the premies.

Really, what Glen is doing is obvious. He is trying to say that when Maharaji came to the West, there was no money, he was being hosted by a bunch of drugged-out hippies who didn't know what they were doing, and poor Maharaji had it real bad, and put up with terrible hardships. Proof of this is a bunch of generalizations and absurd anecdotes like this one. Whether it's true or not who knows, and who cares.

Then, without ever saying the embarrassing things Maharaji did, like darshan, demand surrender, and his obscene material greed, etc., Glen implies that there were some unfortunate problems in the 70s because the hippies adopted the India-trip hook, line and sinker because they thought the West was too material and India had all the answers. They were naive and stupid.

The suggestion is that all the stuff in the 70s that we are talking about on this website and forum was just due to cultural misunderstandings and over-zealous hippies who created this big cult, and poor Maharaji, who was so innocent he was afraid of a naked woman, had to undetake 'Hurculean' (Glen's word) effort to drag those stupid hippies into the 20th century. HE didn't say or promote those things, (which are unstated by Glen anyway)oh, no, it was just the dumb premies and also Maharaji's mother.

It's an attempt to cover for Maharaji's transgressions and the damge he caused so many people by claiming divinity and by demanding surrender and devotion. Of course, in Glen's cult-mind, Maharaji is incapable of error, it was just due to the fact that others forced him and he was just so young, and so innocent he was just kind of swept along, until he valiantly changed things because he is just so virtuous and wonderful.

Bullshit, nonsense, lies and drek, is what I call Glen's history.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:59:13 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Good Point....
Message:
Joe-I think another reason for these silly little stories that m tells, besides trying to bring back the nostalgia days, is to imply that he DOES have morals.For instance, when the story goes that he freaked out upon seeing a naked woman in someone's house who had 'questionable morals', we automatically assume that he DOES have morals.Morals so high, supposedly, that something like that would freak him out.That then leads one to believe he is a highly moral person.
It's like a story a premie told me once about m's father beating a mahatma for stealing a rupee.M tells this story to impress upon us how honest he is, how his standards are so high, without really telling us anything about himself.The unsuspecting person makes the assumption that since he tells this story, he must be living in accordance with the morality implied.Cleverly, he never really tells how he lives, but implies that he is highly moral by telling the story...
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 17:20:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Good Point......I agree..
Message:
Another good point, LA, and I agree with you. The ever-virtuous Maharaji, would, of course, never get into addictions, cheat on his wife, or be cruel to his followers.
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 04:11:44 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: just curious, la-ex
Message:
Did you happen to notice that we took basically the same spin on the attempted implication of m's 'higher' moral standards? Or was my post unclear?
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 22:11:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yeah, Zelda, it's kind of funny, don't you think?
Message:
I'm with Joe on this one. Apparently, Whittaker was trying to be a bit funny. That's fine and all but it does serve to highlight how little real content he's offering.
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 23:32:04 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: ok Joe- I missed the point of you post
Message:
I should know by now to study the context of a post and not isolate a point and divert it into a separate issue
It just happened to me over tha astrology comment so I get it now

phallid is a made up word -a combination of phallus and fallid (or limp) As in a weak point to illustrate an arguement.
Never mind

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 18:36:09 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Also..../Glen Whittaker
Message:
Also, in Glen's 'History of the Organizations' on the Elan Vital website, for some reason the Millennium Festival at the Houston Astrodome in 1973 is not mentioned. One would have thought that it would be difficult for Glen to forget the event called by the 'organizations' The Most Significant Event in Human History.

By the way, if anyone knows, in the LOTU video, there is a really skinny British guy explaining by he is preventing those Christians from entering the hall. Is that Glenn Whittaker?

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 19:35:39 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Also..../Glen Whittaker
Message:
Maybe he is at a loss to explain how at its' highest, the DLM could not fill the dome and ended up with 65,000 dollers in the red.
By the way who ended up paying for that money, premies or shrooms?
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:27:04 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Don't get me started about Glen Whittaker
Message:
Aarrgh! He was the one giving satsang, along with Milky Coles, when I first walked into the ashram. Why didn't I obey my instincts and run for my life. He was SO dogmatic, SO doctrinaire, SO contracted and angry and pinched and twisted... one of those Stalinesque types.

I organized a program at my university and Glen came down from London to speak. He gave this horrendiphallidifulous talk about how people shouldn't get the Knowledge because it would give them peace, or because they want to feel happy, but because MJ was the Living Lord of the Universe. He said it in such a drone of joyless, Chairman Mao-type intensity, and he was dressed in such a businessman type of get-up, as were his henchmen. My friends all ran for the hills and could hardly believe what I was into. That is, those friends who hadn't already freaked out when I held a program at the university theater for MJ himself, which we were told he would come to, and everyone in the whole university showed up with flowers and lots of hippie good vibes. After a long wait, in which a henchwoman (Katharita) told us we didn't love him enough to pull him, there was practically a riot.

Amaing that I hung in there, since all this made me a pariah and I had been quite popular around campus.

Anyway...part of what I like about the Forum are these little vignettes of premie life that we post and all of I sudden I read one of yours and I'm laughing and some other little bit of unconscious programming is lifting off...

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:38:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Yes, I love the stories too
Message:
Thanks, Lurkex,

That was quite weird and funny. I see that part of my life as a farce. A touch of comedy, a little tragedy but basically a farce. Someone should make a movie. Or write a book or something.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:23:38 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You could do a Nick Hornby on dlm easy jim (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 00:30:41 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Is that the same as Hornby OO trainsets? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 13:33:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Who's that? (nt)
Message:
rffff
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 17:56:08 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Author of Hi-Fidelity
Message:
& Fever Pitch (about an obsessive sports fan),

you'd love his writingh I'm sure.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 18:16:40 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Hi Fidelity was a great book....
Message:
But I didn't like the movie very much.

By the way, Nick Hornby says that the best rock and roll song ever written is 'Let's Get It On' by Marvin Gay, although I'm sure his top five list changes constantly.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 20:03:40 (GMT)
From: IM
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'll take it with me next week
Message:
I was looking for a good book to take on holidays. But it better be good. What if it isn't?

By the way, anyone read 'The Wasp Factory'? I read the other day. Weird shit, that.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 20:04:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: IM
Subject: oops! The above post was from me (nt)
Message:
fffff
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 22:47:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: talk about freudian typos
Message:
Don't take a laptop OK?
love you too.
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 14:09:41 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'My dad was a premie', or 'It's all in the eye of
Message:
the beholder.'

My dad recieved knowledge in in Miami during the early eighties when I was fifteen or so. He got into a very heavy devotional trip (believing Cucarachi was god and all that) and eventually convinced other family members to join the cult. A lot of my cousins and aunts did. My older sister also recieved knowledge, but it never did anything to her.

I remember them sitting around after some family diner discussing how much money they were giving to the guru: tens of thousands of dollars. My dad, being the most successful member of the family would top them all.

I was taken to satsang once. I fell asleep. I didn't care much for this kind of stuff anyway.

After a couple of years, my dad dropped out of the cult, and eventually one by one, most of my family dropped out also. Nowadays, only two old aunts are still involved (and still believe he is God).

Two years ago, me and my dad touched the point of the cult. When I asked him why he dropped out, he told me that he once saw Cucarachi humiliate (very badly)in front of a large audience, a premie who asked him why he stopped wearing those krishna costumes. It was during one of those question/answer programs they used to have (I can guess why they don't have them anymore).

He added that the guru was more than God for him, but when he saw him act in this manner, there was no way he could relate to him. All the 'grace' was gone.

In a thread below, there was a discussion about mumbo jumbo emanating from this guy. If anything, it is what cult members attribute to him. A little illusion which depending on the judgement of the person can be either broken with difficulty or with much ease.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 17:54:27 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Interesting.....Maharaji as God
Message:
I think your father was like most of the premies in those days, including me, who sincerely believed Maharaji was the incarnation of God. Since most of us came from Jewish or Christian backgrounds, the idea of a messiah, like Jesus Christ or Krishna, being the incarnation of God, come to 'save' people from pain and suffering, was something that we were well attuned to accept.

It wasn't only that Maharaji said, repeatedly, that he was God directly, or said that he was equivalent to Jesus Christ and Krishna (he often even put on Krishna costumes just to make it perfectly clear), but also that he openly encouraged premies to worship him, kiss is feet, provide for him in extravagant luxury, etc. Plus, he knew full well that most of the premies believed he wa divine, and he did absolutely nothing to disuade us from believing that.

I think I was like your father, that it was seeing Maharaji do things that I thought were cruel and egotistical that made me question his divinity. I think this was because along with my background that there were such things as messiahs, I also had the strong believe that God was a loving being, and that if Jesus Christ was anything, it was loving. Well, Maharaji often wasn't, and it got harder to reconcile that. Also, I had the belief that God also wasn't into material greed, and Maharaji very obviously was.

So, accepting that Maharaji wasn't god, also made me question a lot of other things about the cult. It was kind of a start in the unraveling process. Then, because meditation never did anything for me, and because I disliked most of the rest of the stuff associated with the cult, I was able to get out of it.

And there is some truth in the adage that you see what you want to see. That's why if you want knowledge and Maharaji to be real for you, if you want that badly enough, they probably will be.

Do your two aunts ever attempt to bring the wayward premies in your family back to the fold? Have they ever tried to convert you?

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 08:06:51 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Interesting.....Maharaji as God
Message:
What did you see of Maharaji that was cruel and egotistical? Please explain.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 17, 2000 at 00:01:04 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Kjarne
Subject: The Cruel and Egotistical Maharaji.
Message:
Well, the cruel part, I talked about below, for example. I also talked to premies who were really whacked by him. One premie told me that Maharaji forced Bahari Singh to sit in a bathtub full of water on the roof of the Kansas City ashram in the middle of winter and that he laughed and thought it was very funny. Plus, the fact that he never gave the slightest shit about his devotees was pretty cruel in my opinion.

Egotistical? You are not serious. Let's see. Grandiose mansions in several countries, luxury cars, planes and helicopters. Lord of the Universe. Crowns, thrones, feet kissing. $10,000 suits, $1,000 ties, gold plumbing fixtures and a gold toilet. Claiming to be God. Maharaji is about the most egotistical person I have ever even heard about.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 00:35:53 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe/Jorge
Subject: Interesting.....Maharaji as God
Message:
I think those events, like seeing M being snide and mean, are the turning point for so many, the point where one goes from 'I'm not good enough for M, I'll never measure up' to 'gee, M isn't good enough for *me*. He doesn't deserve all this devotion. In fact, he isn't merely a human being, but a pretty nasty bugger!'

from the throne of 'LOTU' to 'the mean prick you wouldn't even want to share a beer with'

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 03:30:43 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Interesting.....Maharaji as God
Message:
Yes, I agree on this one. He really is nasty. I mean, he could have had a better personality and still have been taking us for a ride, but he's so crudely controlling and demeaning and narcissistic that the best cure is to get a bit closer to him, as I did (not a PAM, but a PAPAM).
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 23:40:18 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Interesting.....Maharaji as God
Message:
Dear Lurkex,
Yes,M's personality seems pretty awful indeed. You're right, the cure is to spend a little time with him. The problem is the distant master-devotee relationship is what most premies have so they paint a much better picture of him in their minds than he really is in person!! They have 'quality time' with M in the privacy of their brains and he is just 'dreamy'. SO hard to let that fantasy go! But, it's kinda hard to have a relationship with someone who isn't there, ain't it?

Tell me, is a PAPAM a 'premie around premies around Maharaji'?
Helen, a little slow with these acronyms

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 04:21:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: That's hilarious ....PAPAM (nt)
Message:
ffff
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:17:57 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: sir dave or any mole
Subject: mahraji's father and the radha swami sect
Message:
there is a whole pile of stuff on the lineage of differant sant mat gurus. i emailed one of the investigators to see if he had a line on this baba sawan singh having initiated m'dad.he replied yes he definately was and gave me this address to find out more.
http://clubs.yahoo.com/exsatsangisupportgroup.i have to go to work now but i'll check out later,hope you can find the link,
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 02:56:44 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: None
To: all
Subject: mahraji's father and the radha swami sect
Message:
can anyone tell me how to find out more about kriya yoga &/or the extension on M's techniques that I've read posts about. I've done a search on net- got background but not techs
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 04:12:41 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: mahraji's father and the radha swami sect
Message:
hi sam theres a guy called shankaranda who gives the kriya tecniques,what part of the world are you in?i found it a powerful tecnique.if you want to know anything else post me.
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:27:58 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: I think you should check the link buzz..
Message:
anyone been able to connect to this link.
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:36:31 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I think you should check the link buzz..
Message:
hi salam i found the group by putting in ex satsangi support group in msn search takes you to the link.ive just signed up for there group to do some searching but have to go now.check later
buzz
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 07:24:23 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: How about just saying
Message:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/exsatsangisupportgroup
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 14:53:33 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Salam @ Buzz
Subject: It sounds very similar
Message:
Re: To Sri Somanath newfounder
(M/Founder) 8/15/00 12:25 am
Dear Freefallinow,

I am so sorry to have posted anything that is in any
way disgusting and offensive to you.

I got a little carried away.

Certainly others may feel the same way about my use
of graphic metaphors, in that post.

I apologise if anyone was offended by it.

This will not excuse what I said, I know, but I have to
tell you that the extremety of my language reflected a
huge frustration I have been feeling from quarters
other than from this club.

You know, of course, in the past, that people have
become so caught up in religious belief they have
allowed innocent girls to be burned alive, calling them
possessed by the devil? This has happened countless
times in Europe.

But just recently I saw such entrapped religious
devotees lambaste a poor disciple of one particular
guru who had reported that his guru had exposed
himself to the disciple, then pushed the disciple's head
down towards his pelvis, then said something like,
'OK. Bud, Now is your big chance. God is waiting
for you. GO FOR IT!!'

This person, this poor disciple, up to that time had
been revering his guru as 'god incarnate'.

When the person told his horrific story, he was accused
by some on the Forum of 'slandering' the Guru. One
person said that even if the action was true, how are
we unrealized souls able to judge the meaning of it.

I wanted to puke (sorry, but that is my reaction).

Then also I have been reading post after post of totally
naive people who do not realize the extent of the
deliberate lying and falsification of events surrounding
the supposed divinity of RS gurus.

These people are convinced that some Indian man is a
spiritual Master, and they tell their wife and children,
(IN EFFECT), 'My first loyalty is to my Guru, who is
unique and my spiritual savior. All of you (the family
members) are therefore forever second-class people in
my eyses. You must live with the knowledge that I
will obey the dictates of my fraudulent guru even if it
is against the wishes and requests of my children and
wife.

This is so sad.

People in the West get into this state of mind because
of the deliberate lies told to them by the Gurus and by
members of the Guru's families who do not hesitate to
cover up and exagerate and do anything possible to
convince the poor disciples that they are following a
real god incarnated avatar.

Freefallinow, the believers in this rubbish are causing
such extreme harm to the lives of their poor children
now and to their future lives, and yet they do not see
it. They think they are surperior to an average person
since they can 'see' that their particualr guru is a
'real' Master.

This hypocracy and self delusion is so huge, and these
victims of the Guru's lies are so blind and stubborn in
their refusal to see the truth, that unfortunately I
sometimes get carried away a little.

I am sorry.

(The image of the wild dogs eagerly eating something
harmful fed to them by deceptive gurus and their
families seemed 'poetically' accurate, but maybe I went
too far.

I will try to 'pull in the reins a bit' as you suggest. I
realize that I may be coming on too strong.

Thank you for your kind and helpful post.

I guess it is the anguish and depression and suicides
and all the many lost lives that have resulted from the
actions of the RS Gurus that gets to me. And those
who continually apologise for the Guru's behavior,
even when they know what the real life consequences
have been for
so many innocent, sincere, decent people who have been decimated.

I just cannot get comfortable with this situation.

Any more than I can with what Pol Pot did in
Cambodia.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 17:03:08 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: I know I have been in a cave for two long,
Message:
but am I supposed to know what the hell are those guyes
talking about. Also what is a satsangi. I have heared of satsanger(of a premie coordinater, asking for a good satsanger),
is that something similar. Satsang and satsangi, makes sense.
I will teach it to the worm in the garden.

Hey you satsangi kind of worm I hope this is going to ruin your
munching, you shiffty little satsangi you, stop munching
my garden you satsangi kind of character.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 22:22:18 (GMT)
From: Terry
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: buzz
Message:
Multiple initiations in India are not uncommon. I've been researching this for some years and it appears quite possible that at some point Shri Hans may haven taken initiation from Sawan Singh of Beas. Just a small piece of possible history, it seems.
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 14:33:52 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: happyheretic@hotmail.com
To: buzz
Subject: Swarupanand
Message:
Buzz,
perhaps you don't know, but we have been through this several times before at this forum. There has been lots of discussions about Hans Ji's connection to the Radhasoami (that's how to spell it) sect. There's no evidence at all that M should have been initiated by Sawan Singh (I don't know where that idea comes from in the first place). Or, if you have such evidence, please provide it. I would be delighted to know exactly what that evidence is, besides somebody's guess.

Instead, there's plenty of evidence that M's father was initiated by a certain Radhasoami guru of the Agra branch (not the Beas branch) named Swarupanand (sometimes called Sarupanand, sometimes Anand Swarup). Dates and names fit, both within Radhasoami and DLM records. We have been into this many times before, so I don't want to repeat myself again. There is a clear connection to the Radhasoamis, but to Swarupanand rather than to Sawan Singh.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 05:04:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Intercepted thought-dialogue of Midwich Cuckoos
Message:
I found this gem on ELK. Notice how Karen and Nina have apparently mindmelded? Creepy, isn't it?:

Karen Plaxton and Nina Shakespeare

A tiny drop of understanding

From Manila, the Philippines

We have just read Ivete's 'True Story' and it was amazing that just two days ago we were talking about how throughout our lives we have used expressions that we actually do not really understand.

This may sound weird, or strange, but in simple terms, we have used words like wise and truth and love and used them wisely and truthfully and with love! But how much understanding, how much consciousness is there in the actual true meanings of these words for us, and maybe for thousands of others in this world.

The actual 'realisation' occurred after listening to 'Little drops of mercy' which a friend had sent us. A sudden wave of consciousness, that was a feeling, rather than a cerebral understanding of what mercy may actually mean... and then a knowledge that maybe all our lives we have never understood the truest meaning of that word.

How many times in this life we have used the word to describe someone or some act of perceived kindness. How many times some unseen, unknown barrier would just stop us from 'feeling' that word.

It is hard to explain, but mercy brought us here and mercy continues to care for us.

So to our wisest man in the world... thank you for teaching us (even if our understanding is minimal) that mercy exists in our lives and we are drenched in it.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 05:45:24 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Intercepted thought-dialogue of Midwich Cuckoos
Message:
pass me the bucket,quick!
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 02:30:21 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Wisdom from the Shroom
Message:
Mr. Shroom: many times I have asked you questions. Questions, of course are not encouraged in your religion. But, why do you post on this site if you are not willing - or able - to engage in debate?

So, if you really intend to use your mind...oops, sorry...uhh..brain...please answer the questions I have posed in the posts below:

In the 'Jim, come on...' post...Masters of the Universe (Gregg)

or the 'Shroom - hypothetical question' post ...Listen carefully (Gregg)

I have posed these enquiries thoughtfully. Oh, sorry, thought is proscribed in your religion. I mean, heartfully. If you refuse to answer these questions, well, I rest my case and if you post here again, I'll probably respond to you, if at all, like Jim, God bless his evolutionist soul.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 02:45:54 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: I can't respond to everybody, Gregg. See some
Message:
of the posts I've made to Sir Dave or Jerry or Michael or Jim. I'll respond to one or two of yours now, if you wish, but you probably already know what I'm going to say.
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 03:14:38 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: On second thought, Gregg, I'll respond to you
Message:
right now. Of course, Coach urges me not to post anymore (see the thread below).

Listen, I totally understand why some of you are pissed off. Maybe you felt ripped off by Maharaji. But I don't feel that way. It was never an issue for me whether he claimed to be God or not or whether he was a liar or not. All my life I've wanted to know who God is, who I am and what life is all about. When I first heard about him, I wasn't interested in a Master (actually it was Guru at that time). I thought that I could do it myself. But after a while, I felt that I should investigate if nothing more than to eliminate him as a possibility. I came away from my first video event in 1981 thinking that he knew something. That hasn't changed.

As I became an aspirant and attended more satsangs, I would experience peace while listening. But I was not about to be deceived. I read every scripture I could get my hands on and I read every old satsang I could. They all said that God is light and that he/she/it resides within me. I used to pray at night for God to reveal himself to me. He never did. I never saw light within me before Knowledge.

So when I walked into that Knowledge session in 1982, I was prepared to either denounce him or to commit myself to realizing his Knowledge depending on whether I saw light or not. I was ready to tell everyone I knew that he was a fraud. But I could not do that after the session. I felt something. It was like coming home.

Now I don't know whether anyone else has experienced light, felt that peace and stillness or that palpable experience that I have, but I can't deny it. It's real for me. All the other things that you guys are concerned about here are peripheral to that. He's a Master to me. I'd like to see one of you guys get up and talk the way he does. And as a matter of fact, I did see quite a few talk about it when ordinary people used to get up and share. There's quite a difference. He knows it. He helps me to know it when I listen to him and practice it. It's really as simple as that.

So enough said. Now I'll go read your story, Gregg. You've been a thoughtful person responding to this 'cult' member so I'd like to read your journey. Take good care.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 15:21:51 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: So, then, Mr. Shroom...
Message:
You find stuff like who M is, what he says, what he does, what his organization is like, etc., all 'peripheral.'

If so, you'd be better off writing EV poetry like those moonstruck Brazilians, cuz that is what we do here: we talk about stuff. We use our brains.

Yes, we all KNOW about the 'experience.' We were all premies! You don't need to tell us any more about the 'experience.'

And if you stop telling us about the 'experience,' then I'll stop telling you that deeper and larger and truer and more liberating experiences await you once you forsake your emotional dependence on a pathetic 70's cult leader.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 14:48:49 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Yer a fuckin liar, Nil, here's way
Message:
Listen, I totally understand why some of you are pissed off. Maybe you felt ripped off by Maharaji. But I don't feel that way. It was never an issue for me whether he claimed to be God or not or whether he was a liar or not. All my life I've wanted to know who God is, who I am and what life is all about.

You fucking liar and worm. First you say it was never an issue whether or not goober was god, then you say 'gawd' was something you wanted to know about all your life. Goober comes along claiming to be gawd, yet you, with your gawd lust, never cared about this claim, even though you became his devotee. You rotten liar!!!

When I first heard about him, I wasn't interested in a Master (actually it was Guru at that time). I thought that I could do it myself. But after a while, I felt that I should investigate if nothing more than to eliminate him as a possibility. I came away from my first video event in 1981 thinking that he knew something. That hasn't changed.

You never wanted a master but you thought you'd better listen to goober to 'eliminate him as a possibility.' Possibility of WHAT??? Why, master, of course !!! You lie so bad.

That's it for me. I vote this pathetic liar and cult apologist off the page.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 12:25:48 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Shroo...here is my answer/One legged Stool
Message:
As you are an honest guy... I will answer you..

First I am not with M and have not been for over 20 years...I received knowledge in '72.

Secondly I do still to this day have deep experiences with 'knowledge'. I do experience light , soundss etc.

Third, I dont attribute those to M. These techniques are very well known in ancient Yoga books..cf the works of Patanjali..etc

Fourth, this K is a set of techniques which open the inner doors...The spirit in side this human form is a spark of the Divine...and its luminousity and intensity is well understood by many on this path from different traditions...certainly from my own tradition which is Sufi based, many Sufi masters have intense experiences of inner light...However this state has come about through intense prayer and submission to God..

Fifthly, meditation by itself would not get you God realisation...let me explain why ( I have explained this in threads below in this forum):

God cannot be realised, that is a misnomer of New Age and Hindu thinking..The Finite cannot realise the Infinite...

Secondly God's attributes are Infinite and Light is just One of His attributes... Meditating on Light does not mean you are Meditating on God...You are Meditating on a Pure attribute of God...

God can bestow Inner Knowledge and experience on those whom He wishes...It is not by our pure efforts that we get there...

Servitude is the way to humility and submission to God...When you r love for God and desire to be in close proximity ...then you will get closer...

Finally meditation alone is not enough...

Right Action and Right Thought are also a prerequiste...that is why M's teachings are a one legged stool...in our tradition, we say you need , prayers, meditation and solitude, as well as right action , right thought and humility...then you are well on the way...

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 17:01:03 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: So you still see 'light' and believe in Masters?
Message:
Eddie wrote--

As you are an honest guy... I will answer you..
First I am not with M and have not been for over 20 years...I received knowledge in '72.

Shroom responds--

You received Knowledge in 72 and have not been with Maharaji for over 20 years? Well, you've missed out on a lot by not staying in touch. Yet you still come here to carp. Interesting. Must have been profound for you to still be talking about it and hanging around the 'ex' premies.

Eddie wrote--

Secondly I do still to this day have deep experiences with 'knowledge'. I do experience light , soundss etc.

Shroom responds--

You still have deep experiences of light, sounds, etc. even after 20 years of being away from Maharaji? Sounds like his Knowledge is very powerful. Did you have deep experiences of light, sounds, etc. before Knowledge?

Eddie wrote--

Third, I dont attribute those to M. These techniques are very well known in ancient Yoga books..cf the works of Patanjali..etc

Shroom responds--

If that was true, why do people who read the ancient Yoga books like Patanjali's Yoga Aphorisms not have deep experiences of light, sounds, etc.? And why did Patanjali say 'In Him becomes infinite that all-knowingness which in others is (only) a germ. He is the teacher of even the ancient teachers, being not limited by time.' And why did Vivekananda respond to this Yoga Aphorism by Patanjali in his 'Raja Yoga' by saying 'It is true that all knowledge is within ourselves, but this has to be called forth by another knowledge. Although the capacity to know is inside us, it must be called out, and that calling out of knowledge can only be got, a Yogi maintains, through another knowledge. Dead, insentient matter, never calls out knowledge, it is the action of knowledge that brings out knowledge. Knowing beings must be with us to call forth what is in us, so these teachers were always necessary. The world was never without them, and no knowledge can come without them.'

Eddie wrote--

Fourth, this K is a set of techniques which open the inner doors...The spirit in side this human form is a spark of the Divine...and its luminousity and intensity is well understood by many on this path from different traditions...certainly from my own tradition which is Sufi based, many Sufi masters have intense experiences of inner light...However this state has come about through intense prayer and submission to God..

Shroom responds--

Okay. I haven't stopped praying or submitting to God simply because Maharaji gave me Knowledge. Did you?

Eddie wrote--

Fifthly, meditation by itself would not get you God realisation...let me explain why ( I have explained this in threads below in this forum):

God cannot be realised, that is a misnomer of New Age and Hindu thinking..The Finite cannot realise the Infinite...

Secondly God's attributes are Infinite and Light is just One of His attributes... Meditating on Light does not mean you are Meditating on God...You are Meditating on a Pure attribute of God...

God can bestow Inner Knowledge and experience on those whom He wishes...It is not by our pure efforts that we get there...

Servitude is the way to humility and submission to God...When you r love for God and desire to be in close proximity ...then you will get closer...

Shroom responds--

Okay. I don't know God fully. But Knowledge lets me feel that peace and experience that light, sounds, etc. And by focusing on a 'pure attribute of God', it gets me closer. After all, 'a pure attribute of God' is still part of the infinite one, is it not? And experiencing part of the infinite seems to me almost like experiencing the infinite, doesn't it? At least as close as us 'finite' beings can get. And I'm still humble and submissive to God even when I practice and listen to Maharaji.

Eddie wrote--

Finally meditation alone is not enough...

Right Action and Right Thought are also a prerequiste...that is why M's teachings are a one legged stool...in our tradition, we say you need , prayers, meditation and solitude, as well as right action , right thought and humility...then you are well on the way...

Shroom responds--

Right Thought, Right Action and Meditation...Sounds a lot like satsang, service and meditation to me! That's not a one-legged stool, is it? Prayers, meditation, solitude, right action, right thought and humility? I do them all when I practice what Maharaji suggests. Why don't you attend an event or get a recent video? You might be surprised at what he's saying now. It has been over 20 years now, hasn't it Eddie? After all, you did receive Knowledge from him.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 17:22:15 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: You seem set in your ways
Message:
I havent missed on anything....I moved on...didnt stay where I was...

But going back to the techniques...I think you show some ignorance there...the technique of light and nectar as well as sound and the breath is described in a number of Yogi books...even some gurus from india now show the light technique... So the question is...?? IS a set of techniques enough to help you realise God..the answer is NO...but your answer is ofcourse that you need M.... well good luck to you if that is your trip...

As I said before no amount of meditation willhelp you realise God...that is the nonsense of this new age stuff...

As far as seeing light goes..there are many who see light without a master...young kids and children see and experience light...what does that Prove? Nothing...

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 16:56:30 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: Food for thought
Message:
Eddy,

Maybe we just misread 'divine' experiences. Ya think? It's kind of like back in the old days when people thought there was these gods behind everything. Gods of rain, sun gods, gods high up in the mountains, in the clouds, volcanoes, etc. etc. etc... everything in nature was personified, power had to be given a personage. It's in our nature to relate this way.

Now when we have experiences in consciousness that are unusual to what we normally experience; as usual, as our ancestors did, we personify them and say God's come to pay a visit. Right? In our 'souls', we feel a rush of mercy, of kindness, and warmth, benevolence, and we think 'this is God'. Is it really? Or is it just that good old magical thinking us humans are famous for? What do you think, and if it is, do you think we'll ever learn that's what it is?

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 18:27:12 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: God as person
Message:

...we personify them and say God's come to pay a visit. ...

Many people do not think of God as a person. That is a straw man argument.
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:23:52 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: G
Subject: What's your point?
Message:
People in the Judeo-Christian tradition do, and that's where most of us come from in this sector of the world. Very few people DON'T personify God. Maybe some Zen Buddhists, but how many of them are living in the western world? And if God isn't personified, he's still thought of as a spirit, something that exists on it's own, not something which is a product of our beings, but something which created them. My argument is that God is still a product of our imaginations, much as the gods of the ancients were. But we think we're so much wiser than our ancestors, that our generation has fiigured it out, who the real God is. I'm sure the ancients were pretty sure about their gods, too. Today, we laugh at them. A thousand years from now, I wouldn't be surprised if our descendents found us just as foolish.
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 21:10:03 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: my point
Message:
My point is that our universe didn't 'just happen', it didn't come from absolute nothingness.

... something that exists on it's own, not something which is a product of our beings, but something which created them.

I wouldn't say that God is a spirit or something that exists separately from everything else but is the Whole. I didn't create God, God created me.

But we think we're so much wiser than our ancestors, that our generation has fiigured it out, who the real God is. I'm sure the ancients were pretty sure about their gods, too. Today, we laugh at them. A thousand years from now, I wouldn't be surprised if our descendents found us just as foolish.

I wouldn't be surprised if our descendents laugh at you and think that you were foolish to believe in your 'unconscious' god of Chance, of Nothingness.
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 22:13:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: See? You WERE talking about God (nt)
Message:
hhhhhhhh
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 22:33:07 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: In the other thread? No, I wasn't,
Message:
and you are SO illogical. Believing in 'God' and not believing in material monism are different. But you, being the extremist that you are, artificially group beliefs together. Do you know that there are atheists who believe in esp?
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 22:46:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Oh come on!
Message:
I was kidding to begin with. But kidding with a basis in fact. Sure, you weren't talking about God in the other thread but based on earlier discussions I assumed -- and I still believe -- He was never far from your mind. I AM allowed to remember past discussions, aren't I?

But what's with this Onanism thing? I thought that was reserved for the religious. Not you, of course.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 23:02:11 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: onanism?
Message:
onanism
n.
1.Masturbation.
2.Coitus interruptus.

[After Onan, son of Judah (Genesis 38:9).]

Self-pollution; masturbation.

1: manual stimulation of the genital organs (of yourself or another) for sexual pleasure [syn: masturbation, self-abuse]
2: a contraceptive method in which coitus is initiated but the penis is deliberately withdrawn before ejaculation [syn: coitus interruptus, withdrawal method, pulling out]

What does THAT have to do with this discussion? Btw, isn't the wording 'self-pollution' and 'self-abuse' amazing?

Perhaps you meant something else?

I made it clear that I do not conceive of God as a He, so why did you write He?

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 23:37:56 (GMT)
From: Church Lady
Email: None
To: all
Subject: The dreaded dangers and sin of onanism
Message:
As a dire warning to all you wicked sinners:

Self Abuse

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 07:03:41 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Church Lady
Subject: The dreaded dangers and sin of onanism
Message:
If the practice is continued from the age of fifteen and upward, nature will protest against the abuse she has suffered, and continues to suffer, and will make them pay the penalty for the transgression of her laws, especially from the ages of thirty to forty-five, by numerous pains in the system, and various diseases, such as affection of the liver and lungs, neuralgia, rheumatism, affection of the spine, diseased kidneys, and cancerous humors.

This is bullshit, Church Lady. The only thing that happens, 'if the practice is continued', is you go blind.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 13:33:59 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: Great post to wake up to - thank you! :-) (nt)
Message:
Thanks :-)
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:09:20 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: On second thought, Gregg, I'll respond to you
Message:
I have to congradulate you. This is the first post
that I have read that shows you are changing.

Notice though there is a slight 'something' that you need to understand.

First there is our quarel with gm himself.
You do not have that, because you are a premie.
When you become an ex-premie(god forgive), for whatever
reason, you will then have whatever grudge you
will carry with against maharaji. Like me, Jethro, G......etc

Second is knowledge. I just like to remind you very quickly
that the term knowledge refers to the techniques, not
the experience itself.

So, The Experience is hard to define, a problem even gm has in describing.
You see if he really knows what it is, he would have written a small
manual and distributed it to anyone that was interested.
That not being the case, he has to keep talking about it,
and he is making a right cockup out of it.

Leaving Maharaji does not mean leaving The Experience.

But that is the fundemental issue.

To you maharaji and The Experience are related and are one.

What I found out, a long long long time ago, and you
may not belive it, I was still a 'practicing' premie,
that it was not neccessary for me to have maharaji
to have The Experience.
I am talking here, 5 years before I decided to leave the nest.

That ofcourse is in agreement with your posts and others,
We were born with the experience, it is ours, no one ownes
it except us.

That leads to a question which rolles in your head

'but maharaji made me aware of it'.

Because of that you pay tribute to him. You love him.
You donate money. You will defend him and all your
other antics that we have seen.

This is natural because you fell gratitude towards him.
Remember your post about that.

So what made us all change. Ha ha, the cat died of
couriosity.

These are fact.

The techniques that maharaji offers are known very well at the source,
i.e. India.
If you were in the same situation in 1982, but in India and came across
any guru that would have revelead the techniques to you , you
would have followed that guru except you came across maharaji.

So, the techniques being a way to open the gateway to you conciousness
to experience something difference are really independent
of the person that offers them.

I will make it clearer if you wish.

Let The Experience be a river. A dam is in the way stopping the river,
there is a botton that anyone can push to open
the gates so the water can flow, it just happens that
it was maharaji. That is it. No more no less.
Anyone that knows where the botton is can do that.

You can not deney the fact that you worship maharaji, and you think that he is god.
HE is the master of the universe.
That he is beyond everthing.
You have excepted this on good fath.

We see this, in you and other premies. We also see it in people
that follow other sects.

I can not change you, you have to do it.

Well I think this post is too long, I hope I have
been able to clarify something, and that you are not
as confused as you were before,

Salam

p.s. do not think because of this answer
we will be having showers together.
u ar stil a shroom.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 04:43:10 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Answer my question
Message:
What did you mean when you said that you are a 'good amanuensis for this site'? Are you being paid?
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 05:03:31 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: G
Subject: In my ignorance of the English language, I
Message:
thought that amanuensis was synonymous with pseudonym. Actually, my pseudonym is my amanuensis for my real name. I'm writing for myself. I'm not being paid. I'm not even one of the 'elite' premies that you guys always talk about. Just a simple human being living in San Diego who is in the process of completing his computer network certifications and working as a night watchman until then. And who loves to listen to Maharaji and help him, in a small way, to offer his Knowledge to others. Because I enjoy doing so.

Now, answer my question, if you wish. Who are you?

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 11:43:08 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: In your ignorance
Message:
Shroom, don't be a broom. Have room.

BTW, I met G in person at Helen's home and I know his real name too. G is a very nice handsome intelligent man. You are begining to get jelous of our courage (which you yet don't have) because you are begining to doubt Lard, you are noticing the stench too but you are afraid to let go. That is why you come here. Otherwise, if you were so devoted you wouldn't want to hear what we have to say.

WHO ARE YOU, 'SECRETARY'?

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 05:27:08 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: really
Message:
I never even heard of the word amanuensis before. I can't see how you could think that it is synonymous with pseudonym. You even spelled it correctly.

Who am I? I'm me, and I prefer to remain anonymous.

Do you think that was evasive? Well, that's exactly the answer Prem Rawat gave one time, 'I'm me.'

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 05:12:09 (GMT)
From: not THIS again
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: where have I heard this story before?
Message:
Anyone remember the simple English bus driver pursuing a career in computing?
amanuensis was the apt term.
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 16:31:40 (GMT)
From: TeddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: not THIS again
Subject: where have I heard this story before?
Message:
hey..some London bus drivers have become very famous writers...
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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 17:37:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: TeddyTheTurtle
Subject: didn't know Charles Cameron was a bus driver
Message:
oh must be some other writer.
Cameron isn't exactly famous is he?

so, tell me who?

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 17:54:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ps
Subject: oh never mind I think I got it
Message:
or am I crazy?
no just a bitch. No, both.
OK glad that is straightened out.
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 11:16:55 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: not THIS again
Subject: That's a damn lie and here's the proof!
Message:
I'm getting sick of all these people insinuating that several of the posters here are all the same person using different names.

Click here for The Truth about the mushroom person

I hope the above link puts to rest all of these ridiculous and unfounded rumours and nips them in the bud before they get out of control.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 15:02:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: What possible reason do you have for saying this?
Message:
Why do you say this, Dave?
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 16:45:49 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What possible reason do you have for saying this?
Message:
There are similarities and let's face it, when several people are by there own admission, not who they say they are, it leaves room for all kinds of speculation.

The story about being an ordinary humble nightwatchman and doing a computer course is so similar to Cerberus's story about being an ordinary humble London bus driver and doing a computer course, that it's not hard to see how they could both be the same person.

Many people believed that Cerberus was also 'Rob' and several people were convinced about this. Hence my theory which can always be proved to be wrong if certain people were open about who they are or have been in the past.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 02:31:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: That is extremely unfair of you, Dave
Message:
So now I see that you have a link to your page, 'The Truth About Shroomananda' on AG. Really, Dave, that is so unfair.

The best you might have is a suspicion that Rob = Cerebus = Shroomananda. I don't share that suspicion at all but whatever, you do. What's so unfair is that you yourself only state your case in the most tentative terms:

...it's not hard to see how they could both be the same person.

yet you put up a page accusing Rob -- yet again! -- of subterfuge as if it was beyond dispute.

But you have a solution, right?:

Many people believed that Cerberus was also 'Rob' and several people were convinced about this. Hence my theory which can always be proved to be wrong if certain people were open about who they are or have been in the past.

First of all, are you including yourself among the 'many people'? Were you convinced of this? That's unclear. But beyond that, what are you saying? That Rob can answer this allegation once and for all if only he admits what you believe to be true?

Sorry, Dave, that's as confused as it is unfair. Think about it.

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Date: Wed, Aug 16, 2000 at 10:58:23 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Life is unfair isn't it
Message:
But I've decided to give Rob a break so have another look at The Truth about Shroomananda and you'll see we have the man with a mission in all his glory!
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 17:14:08 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I've never heard of this Rob guy or this bus
Message:
driver. What do you want? If I told you my name would you know me? No, you wouldn't. And what difference would it make if I knew who Sir Dave was and you knew who Shroomananda was? Would we send each other Christmas cards?
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:03:22 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Something not quite right about that
Message:
You claim to know most of the people on this forum and yet you have never heard of Rob, one of the most famous characters here in recent times who posted just recently?

There's something not quite right about this.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 20:39:00 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: curiouser and curiouser
Message:
It seems odd to me when anyone claims they haven't noticed posts that have been there concurrently with theirs.

They even comment on the subject matter of other posts from previous dates before they started posting here, but claim ignorance of other subject matter from same said dates.

shroom you are disembling. You are somewhat clever but not really intelligent.

I suppose someone will now post and ask me if I've taken my meds today so let me save you the time.

Yes I have.

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 11:41:42 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Oh no!
Message:
Not that can of worms again. :)
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 03:01:32 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: I can't respond to everybody, Gregg. See some
Message:
What's up Mushroom. Can't take the pace, can't stand the heat? Are we going too fast for you? You'd better go and get some 'practise' in brother before you descend down to our level.
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Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 21:29:10 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: mush-Shrooms
Message:
Are intentionally kept in the dark and fed manure - just like our buddy shroom de url.
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Date: Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 23:50:13 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Sounds like the definition of an 'ex' premie to me
Message:
Why do you think 'Shroomananda' is such a good amanuensis for this site? By the way, the 'ananda' part means bliss!

Blissfully yours,
Shroomananda

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 21:12:45 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Sounds like the definition of an 'ex' premie to me
Message:
So you are my old buddy URL?
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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 02:35:10 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Sounds more like a broken record to me.
Message:
Listen. You're beginning to sound just like a broken record. I do understand that you think you're full of bliss. I'm sure you think you're full of bliss when you eat the fungi from which you derive your name. However, others could be forgiven for thinking that you're full of something else entirely. You may or may not know this but the people who started this site and those who like to post and read here are not really, on the whole, into Maharaji, premies, bliss, anandas and all that other junk you've been carting around for so long. I enjoy reading this forum and trust me when I tell you that your posts are taking up precious page space which could be used for, well, er, just about anything else I could care to mention. I appreciate the fact that you're suffering from the effects of ingesting too many little mushrooms and that you're not quite over it yet. I'm sure you'll get better one day.

I personally think the forum has been very patient with you. You have already been booted out of here by the forum admin once, but you still persist in hanging around like a rather unpleasant odour. Now you seem content to make rather silly and tasteless jibes at those who allow you here as a guest. Handing out the snake oil of your spiritual advice on this site is really a waste of time. You must know that. So why continue to waste your time? I'm sure you must meet loads of people who are so interested in what you have to say elsewhere. Haven't you got any participating or anandering to do? Do do me a favor and go and haunt some other place for a bit will you. I'm not screaming at you to f*** off or anything, just asking you nice and civil to go away. You're extremely boring and unfortunately the fact that you're also terminally thick seems to stop you from understanding that you might have just overstayed your welcome in this little corner of cyberspace.

Comprendez?

Coach

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Date: Tues, Aug 15, 2000 at 00:05:32 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: amanuensis
Message:
I looked up the word amanuensis and these are the definitions I found:

. One who is employed to take dictation or to copy manuscript.

. A person whose employment is to write what another dictates, or to copy what another has written.

. Someone skilled in the transcription of speech (especially dictation) [syn: stenographer, shorthand typist]

In what sense are you a 'good amanuensis for this site'?

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