Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Sep 01, 2000 at 13:23:18 (GMT)
From: Aug 19, 2000 To: Aug 29, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


Shroomananda -:- Ramakrishna, singing about the grief of a gopi -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 08:37:58 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Ramakrishna, singing about the grief of a gopi -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:51:04 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- That's almost haikuish Jerry, like it (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 08:19:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Did you say haiku? -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 13:59:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- Fucking luv it Jerry -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 18:40:30 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Ramakrishna, singing about the grief of a gopi -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:17:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Not bad, Nige -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 05:24:18 (GMT)
__ __ Shroomananda -:- Sounds more like Kerouac's 'On the Road' to me! NT -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:54:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- How do you figure? -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 14:07:27 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Liberate yourself woman! Times are changin' nt -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 17:50:13 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Does this have anything to do with Prem Rawat? -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 17:16:50 (GMT)
__ Michael -:- It sounds as if the gopi is off to the -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 14:17:58 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Singing about the grief of a 'devotee'. -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 13:05:51 (GMT)
__ __ Shroomananda -:- It's just a poem, Stonor. Did you like it? Or do -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 15:46:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- runaway minds, Krishna -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 02:38:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- I couldn't stop my mind before Knowledge, G. -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 03:00:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- My other questions? -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 04:06:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- You really are the perfect parody of an old premie -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:04:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- You really are the perfect parody of an ex-premie -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 02:49:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- So is it just about calming the mind? -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 07:59:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Actually I'm quite happy with my meditation -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 07:46:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Perfect Master Parody -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 04:16:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- You've had 12 Gurus? Man, you are a seeker! -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 06:18:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Bravo, absolutely brilliant -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 05:18:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Twelve Gurus -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:22:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ heard of -:- still frames? -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 14:18:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Shroo - I worry about you......... -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 09:53:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- It's just a poem, Stonor. Did you like it? Or do -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 17:58:06 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Ramakrishna, singing about the grief of a gopi -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 11:49:58 (GMT)
__ Sir David -:- Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 10:31:42 (GMT)

Sam -:- lord video -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 05:30:23 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- lord video -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:16:11 (GMT)
__ __ sam -:- lord video -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:51:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- lord video -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 03:51:21 (GMT)
__ Holiness -:- lord video -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 18:17:35 (GMT)
__ __ sam -:- lord video -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:55:28 (GMT)
__ Marshall -:- lord video -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 17:52:31 (GMT)
__ __ sam -:- lord video -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:58:15 (GMT)
__ __ A Yank -:- Isn't Aussie 90 dollars about 50 US? (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:05:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ sam -:- yesthats right(29.99plus shipping=that amount-nt -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 02:01:59 (GMT)

ET -:- The Tribe Has Spoken! -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 01:22:52 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Now, you've ruined everything! -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 02:04:04 (GMT)
__ __ ET -:- At least I didn't say Rich won. -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 04:39:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- At least I didn't say Rich won. -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:13:17 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- if it's any consolation -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 02:45:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- if it's any consolation -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 03:44:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- if it's any consolation -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:32:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- if it's any consolation -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 03:01:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- if it's any consolation -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:20:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- outback yeah put them in Amaroo -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:42:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yes, I was kidding -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:46:27 (GMT)

Gabriel Golden -:- Cult List -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 23:08:29 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Freewill systemically denied. -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 02:06:29 (GMT)
__ __ Shroomananda -:- Yeah, it sounds like YOU know what you're talking -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 02:52:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Yeah, it sounds like YOU know what you're talking -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 13:29:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Where does your blind hatred come from Shroom? -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 12:49:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Where does your blindness come from Stonor? -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 15:34:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- FUCK OFF SHROO YOU MAKE ME PUKE ! nt -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 18:00:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- No verbal abuse, please. It just creates more. -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 16:24:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- I'm tempted to say the same to you Stonora..... -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:14:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonora -:- LOL Halo, know how you feel!!! -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:33:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Floyd -:- Hey Teacher ; leave us kids alone ! -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:07:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- For a kid you've got interesting taste in music! -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:41:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Schoolmarm Stonor -:- PS Floyd ... -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:53:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Yeah, you are sick, Hal. Stonor's apologist! NT -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:00:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Just expressing my true unadulterated feelings nt -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:33:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ O -:- As were the Hutus (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:16:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- O , I never thought you were so sensitive to the F -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:39:23 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- and BTW, GG, are you an atheist, as Jim described? -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 02:21:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gabriel Golden -:- and BTW, GG, are you an atheist, as Jim described? -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 16:35:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- and BTW, GG, are you an atheist, as Jim described? -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 17:30:30 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Cult List -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 01:49:16 (GMT)
__ __ Gabriel Golden -:- Cult List -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 16:38:16 (GMT)

Yolycow -:- Wazzup! -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:19:41 (GMT)
__ Dwork -:- Wazzup! -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:47:25 (GMT)

His Holiness -:- Holy smoke -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 17:16:00 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- it never came to our city -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 17:27:59 (GMT)
__ __ Hole in his -:- Yes, I saw it on video -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:33:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ ET -:- That was Rajneesh (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 02:42:30 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- it never came to our city -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:28:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- angela's Ashes etc -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 02:49:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- angela's Ashes etc -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 03:33:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Harvey Keitel is sexy -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 04:17:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Holiness -:- A typical girl film critic. -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:14:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- typical male response, didn't read my post right -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:02:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lurkex -:- Holy Smoke and sex -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 21:35:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- What I think did it -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 18:15:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Holy Smoke and sex -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 06:09:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Holy Smoke and sex -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 12:15:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- To Robyn -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 03:46:50 (GMT)

His Holiness -:- I saw TheLordOfTheUniverse video. -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 16:44:32 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- I saw TheLordOfTheUniverse video aussi -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 19:01:37 (GMT)
__ __ the press conference -:- was scary ala Manson -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 16:01:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Flippant Answers... -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:10:42 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Discrepancies -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 01:56:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Hi Marianne... -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:25:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- No kidney needed! -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 03:19:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Discrepancies -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 12:38:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Justification for unethical behavior -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:57:29 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- I saw TheLordOfTheUniverse video. -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:23:33 (GMT)
__ __ Hole in his O -:- We were hard-boiled fanatics and part of a ... -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 19:27:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Stopping the rot -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 23:22:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Stopping the rot -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 18:48:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- Stopping the rot -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 12:32:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Stopping the rot -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:59:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Hahahahahhahahaah! 'God in a bod' love it! (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 13:55:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Welcome!! Please do. ;) (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:46:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Holiness -:- Are you talking to me? -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 18:41:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Are you talking to me? -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 12:04:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Are you talking to me? -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 00:45:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- OK. Thanks. -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 02:41:55 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- 'the most significant event in the history of the -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:57:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lurkex -:- responsibility et al -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 21:49:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ DonQuixotte de la Mancha -:- Wait a little -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 20:11:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- You have a partner here. -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 16:15:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lurkex -:- Is this the same LOTU video made by DLM -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 21:41:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Is this the same LOTU video made by DLM - no way! -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 18:26:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- You can Order it from Amazon.com -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 22:17:55 (GMT)

Jerry -:- Is Anne Heche God? (ot) -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 15:49:21 (GMT)
__ TD -:- Is Anne Heche God? (ot) -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 22:28:15 (GMT)
__ VP -:- No, Alanis Morisette is God, Jerry! -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 15:57:23 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- only in the movies VP -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 16:26:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ VP -:- true, Selene -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 16:53:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Dogma -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 04:13:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Dogma I remember when you talked about that -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 05:16:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Dogma I remember when you talked about that -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 05:45:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Alannis and Dogma -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 17:26:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Anne Heche/Travolta's Butt -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 03:40:25 (GMT)

TD -:- Darwin Award Candidates! (OT) -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:14:37 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Video of the runner-up here? (OT) -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 19:06:11 (GMT)
__ __ TD -:- That is hysterical and tragic! YUK cq!! -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 22:51:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Hope you didn't miss 'smell the finger'! (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 18:28:23 (GMT)
__ TD -:- Anyone seen Me, Myself and Irene? -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 03:10:53 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- I love those things -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:32:16 (GMT)
__ __ TD -:- I love those things -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 01:04:06 (GMT)

hamzen -:- More proof that gm lies and doesn't respect life -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 22:14:49 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Maharaji doesn't realize how 'in the way' he is. -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 04:36:07 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- More proof that gm lies and doesn't respect life -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:42:23 (GMT)
__ bill -:- The environmentally freindly guru trip -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:06:41 (GMT)

Joe -:- To P'Man and Katie: Nader v. Gore (ot) -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 21:20:04 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- To P'Man and Katie: Nader v. Gore (ot) -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 10:18:28 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- To P'Man and Katie: Nader v. Gore (ot) -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 17:38:19 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Also... -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 10:29:51 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Nader v. Gore and Jeremy Rifkin (ot) -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 06:38:16 (GMT)
__ P-man -:- To P'Man and Katie: Nader v. Gore (ot) -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 04:54:06 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Okay.... -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 17:25:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ P-man -:- Okay.... -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:42:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Isn't the media... -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:51:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- I think the agreement is.... -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 19:39:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ P-man -:- I think the agreement is.... -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 00:49:05 (GMT)
__ __ VP -:- To P'Man--a critique of the conventions -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 15:22:10 (GMT)
__ P-man -:- post isn't there -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 22:40:12 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- give it a couple of hours, it always comes back(nt -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:25:43 (GMT)

Gabriel Golden -:- Time to ruffle some feathers -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 20:58:17 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- GG, the analyst -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 00:00:24 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- Time to ruffle some feathers -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 10:22:11 (GMT)
__ Sir David -:- Time to ruffle some feathers - ho hum -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 02:14:10 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Couldn't agree more -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:42:28 (GMT)
__ Horsepuck. -:- Time to ruffle: Don't go there! -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:29:33 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- The problem was before, not after -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:51:03 (GMT)
__ O dark one (bill) -:- Dawkins accidental creation didnt give me feathers -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:19:48 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- who the hell knows? -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 03:59:01 (GMT)

Prince Charles fan Club -:- Dawkins sucks -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 17:03:42 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- As persuasive as the prince... well done! nt -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 00:33:45 (GMT)
__ __ O -:- As persuasive as the prince... well done! nt -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:19:32 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- I should hope so, -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 18:36:48 (GMT)
__ __ PCFC -:- Fuzzy Logic -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 11:11:03 (GMT)

buzz -:- friendship -:- Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 11:54:04 (GMT)
__ sam -:- something you said... -:- Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 02:57:54 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Viualisations -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 10:46:09 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 08:37:58 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ramakrishna, singing about the grief of a gopi
Message:
at her separation from Krishna:

I have not found my Krishna, O friend? How cheerless my home without Him!
Ah, if Krishna could only be the hair upon my head,
Carefully I should braid it then, and deck it with bakul-flowers:
Carefully I should fashion the braids out of my Krishna-hair.
Krishna is black, and black is my hair; black would be one with black.

Ah, if Krishna could only be the ring I wear in my nose,
Always from my nose He would hang, and my two lips could touch Him.
But it can never be, alas! Why should I idly dream?
Why should Krishna care at all to be the ring in my nose?

Ah, if Krishna could only be the bracelets on my arms,
Always He would cling to my wrists, and proudly I should walk,
Shaking my bracelets to make them sound, shaking my arms to show them;
Down the king's highway I should walk, wearing my Krishna-bracelets.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:51:04 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Ramakrishna, singing about the grief of a gopi
Message:
I prefer Sandburg, myself. Ever hear of him? He's an American poet from earlier in this century. In fact, he's been called America's national poet. I've been reading a book of his poems. Here's a taste.

The dago shovelman sits by the railroad track
Eating a noon meal of bread and bologna.

A train whirls by, and men and women at tables
Alive with red roses and yellow jonquils,
Eat steaks running with brown gravy,
Strawberries and cream, eclairs and coffee.

The dago shovelman finishes the dry bread and bologna,
Washes it down with a dipper from the water-boy,
And goes back to the second half of a ten-hour day's work
Keeping the road-bed so the roses and jonquils
Shake hardly at all in the cut glass vases
Standing slender on the tables in the dining cars.

It just seems so much more real than a gopi's lament.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 08:19:27 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: That's almost haikuish Jerry, like it (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 13:59:22 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Did you say haiku?
Message:
Yeah, ham, I love poetry that paints vivid pictures of reality. In fact, it's pretty much the only kind I go for. And I just LOVE haiku. Not so much the old style from ancient Japan, like Basho; that's in a different era, and I can't really visualize it as well as I can modern haiku.

the merry-go-round
as it turns
shines into the trees

Great stuff, in't it?

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 18:40:30 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Fucking luv it Jerry
Message:
But sounds like you're more up on this than me, basho was my hero, well one of, for years,
now you're singing to me
definitely be e-mailing, getting back into arti stuff big time now, whoops artey stuff (ha ha!)

especially when it incorporates work related stuff,
gm was always so keen to condemn the world, but my god he's quite happy to pillage it when he wants,

more ham zen, that's what we need

this has really lifted me up today jerry, wish you'd share your passions more, we could have had this discussion months ago, why are we all so fucking shy here, that's got to be premie beware of mind shit I reckon,

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:17:56 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Speakin of poetry...
Subject: Ramakrishna, singing about the grief of a gopi
Message:
There is a poem by 18th c. poet Richard Lovelace (written in prison to his babe of the moment) which I always used to think was well cool - and Fairport Convention added music and did it as a song, which is how I came to learn it without having to learn it. Fairports may even have left a couple of verses out, but hennyway... I can't promise punctuation or no words misheard, but the little beauty went like this:

To Althea from Prison

When love with unconfined wings
Hovers within my gates
And my divine Althea brings
To whisper at my grates
When my light angled in her hair
And fettered with her eye
Birds that wanton in the air
Know no such liberty...

When flowing cups run swiftly round
With no allaying Thames (?!)
Our careless heads with roses crowned
Our hearts with royal flames
When thirsty grief in wine we steep
When healths and drafts run free
Fishes that tipple in the deep
Know no such liberty...

Stone walls do not a prison make
Nor iron bars a cage
Minds innocent and quiet
Take that as a hermitage
If I have freedom in my love
And in my soul am free
Angels alone that soar above
Enjoy such liberty.

>
And not a guru in sight. Sorry, but this is a great poem. Has to be said. Almost up there with Ivette and the Elkies, but Lovelace forgot to mention 'gratitude' or 'Master', so I doubt he'd pass muster over on enjoyinglife.org.

(Personally, I would stop at the second verse and spend the rest of my life there. Verse three is great too but aproaching cult-nut territory in its implications. In fact, I don't believe Lovelace could have written the third verse in prison, inspirational as it is, if (a) he didn't believe he'd be getting out of jail pretty soon, and (b) he'd be cutting a rug with the divine Althea every evening by the fire after he'd put his quill down. Hermitages can only do it for so long, and this doesn't sound like Death Row...)

Good though, don't you reckon?

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 05:24:18 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Not bad, Nige
Message:
Yeah, Nige, it's good poetry. It's got that spark in it that I like, but still a little flowery for my taste. I tend toward poetry that's a little more gritty, with less rhyme. But I can see why you like this particular one :)
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:54:58 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Sounds more like Kerouac's 'On the Road' to me! NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 14:07:27 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: How do you figure?
Message:
Shroom,

This is a poem about a simple laborer eating his humble meal before returning to work to ensure the rich their lavish lifestyle. It's been a long time since I read 'On The Road', but if I recall correctly that was the story of a pair of beatniks' wild adventures going cross country. Don't see the connection.

But if you say so.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 17:50:13 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Liberate yourself woman! Times are changin' nt
Message:
jhgf
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 17:16:50 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Does this have anything to do with Prem Rawat?
Message:
I mean, are you really suggesting EV sells Prem-shaped nose rings on trinket-stalls at events..?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 14:17:58 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: It sounds as if the gopi is off to the
Message:
big Krishna (all your Krsna needs!) Store at the Mall, right next to the Disney and WB shops!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 13:05:51 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Singing about the grief of a 'devotee'.
Message:
Isn't this story about the futility of trying to 'wear' your awareness of 'whatever-it-is' like a superficial decoration? Taking on the identity or name of a devotee does not mean that you have internalized your experience of higher states of consciousness. Even buying all the trinkets and doing the practices 'religiously' won't 'do' it.

Bobby posted a link to a Ram Dass interview over at AG recently. Here are some of Ram Dass' comments it:

Ram Dass: I would say that there are two things: one is the discipline of how you get into the clear awareness, and the other is the discipline to apply it. He's talking about the discipline to apply it, and he's implying that the discipline to get there gives you the discipline to apply it. Unless you're doing karma yoga, which is applying it as a way of getting there, it isn't the same thing; these are two different things. I think there's probably a correlation between the amount of discipline you have to develop to get there by the methods of vipassana [insight meditation] or something like that. Yet one of the problems with vipassana is that these people seem incapable of living life after having done this intensive amount of meditation practice. So I can't really make that kind of generalization either. Unless the way you're getting there is a karma yoga technique, or a technique like Tantra, which works with the data of the senses, I don't think that either of them are going to help you very much in application.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 15:46:06 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: It's just a poem, Stonor. Did you like it? Or do
Message:
you have to analyze everything? Why don't you analyze yourself? Like why a 'non-anything' is so fascinated with a 'cult' that you know nothing about except through a runaway mind. Let me ask you this. Would you drive a car with no brakes? To me, that's what a mind is like that doesn't know how to be still. No brakes. Can't stop. All Knowledge really does is put brakes on that mind. So you can stop it when you want it to. Stillness. Peace. You know what I mean? Maybe not. After all, you never knew Krishna, did you? Or received his Knowledge.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 02:38:26 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: runaway minds, Krishna
Message:
How do you conclude that Stonor has a runaway mind? Do you think that all 'non-premies' have runaway minds, or that only premies have ever experienced peace? Did you know Krishna? I hope not, because from what I know, Krishna is a fictional character in a very long novel.

Are you an ex pretending to be a premie?

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 03:00:52 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I couldn't stop my mind before Knowledge, G.
Message:
How about you? And every person with Knowledge I've spoken to about it couldn't stop their's either. And from my observation of most people in the world, they can't stop their minds and experience peace and stillness without external means: drugs, alcohol, sex, nature, relationships, TV, etc. Everybody has experienced peace at one time or another. That's why Knowledge seems so familiar to so many people. Like coming home. But without the external stimuli.

As far as your last question, I'm a person with Knowledge who still practices and listens to Maharaji. And enjoys doing so. I don't think that qualifies me for 'ex' statis, does it? How about you? Are you a premie pretending to be an 'ex'? Just kidding, of course. You have nothing to prove to me.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 04:06:57 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: My other questions?
Message:
These are the questions I asked you:

How do you conclude that Stonor has a runaway mind? (I don't agree with you.)

Do you think that all 'non-premies' have runaway minds?

or that only premies have ever experienced peace? (You basically answered no to that.)

Did you know Krishna? I hope not, because from what I know, Krishna is a fictional character in a very long novel.

Are you an ex pretending to be a premie? (You answered that one.)

Now you claim you can 'stop your mind'. First, I doubt that, maybe slow it down, but not stop it. You don't need to stop it anyway. Second, why do you think meditation is so different/better than 'external means'? If something works, it works, it doesn't matter if it's 'external' or 'internal'. Also, other people meditate.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:04:23 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: You really are the perfect parody of an old premie
Message:
you just have to be an ex hamming it up, there's no way to come to any other conclusion, you're just so inane. You're not Pauline Premies alter ego by any chance?

If that's all knowledge is, what's the big deal, plenty of research to show loads of different meditations calm people down, tm for one, so why the need for mister see how many millions I can spend today?

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 02:49:27 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: You really are the perfect parody of an ex-premie
Message:
Why don't you try one of the others like TM? Then you can talk from an experience and not from your backside. Maybe you'll get some peace and stillness from the Maharishi. And let's not forget devotion. If you do try one of the other ones, do let us know. You'll be an expert then. You could 'compare and contrast' between techniques. Looking forward to your report with bated breath. Or rather with my breath. One at a time.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 07:59:18 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: So is it just about calming the mind?
Message:
at least come clean about it, there are loads of meditation techniques with scientific research to back up their claims of mind calming, what's the big deal about knowledge?
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 07:46:45 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Actually I'm quite happy with my meditation
Message:
thank you, but as usual another inane response that is so wide of the mark it's funny, in a kindergarten kind of a way.
But then you don't really want a discussion with meaning do you, just fuck around, playing games, not answering questions, distracting this site from it's real purpose.
You wanna talk meditation, fine, lets go for it.
But you've shown no inclination for a rational discussion in any post of yours I've read, so you get the punkish fuck-off abuse you deserve.

But then Melbourne has been the ONLY premie I've come across here who seems capable of that.
By the way, could you change your name, you're insulting mushrooms and the intelligence in consciousness that they canproduce.

Shock me shroom,

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 04:16:22 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Perfect Master Parody
Message:
Yo, Shroom: I've tried a dozen or so gurus/techniques. I'm not a guru whore; it's just that this is serious business to me. I don't want to fall for whatever catches me in a moment of need.

How 'bout you?

Are you open-minded....or close-minded?

There are worse paths than Maharaji's, but there are also better paths. I don't mean MY path. I mean paths that are less cultic and more intense and inclusive and open than the shifty path of P.P. Rawat.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 06:18:17 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: You've had 12 Gurus? Man, you are a seeker!
Message:
Who's the latest incarnation? Is he or she your last one or just your latest one? Are you going to go seeking again? You know what Vivekananda asked Ramakrishna the first time they met? 'Have you seen God and can you show him to me?' It was the 25th Guru that Vivekananda had approached so I guess he had his questions down to a science. Yet it took him 6 years of testing Ramakrishna before he totally accepted him as his teacher. He said later in life when he came to America that he could never fault others for doubting Ramakrishna since he had spent so long doing so.

I'm open minded, Gregg, but I am really satisfied with Maharaji. I've never heard anyone talk about life like him. To sit up there on stage in front of thousands of people and extemporaneously talk the way he does is astonishing to me. He keeps it fresh every time even though he's basically talking about the same simple thing. I really enjoy listening to him. And he makes me laugh often. I think he could be a professional comedian if he wanted to. And his Knowledge is impeccable. You should have seen him doing the techniques when he was previewing the new Knowledge session video. Like a rock! But I am open to listening to others as well. One can glean truth from many sources. Even a little kid can say something profound on occasion. But I think that someone would really have a difficult time trying to improve on Maharaji and Knowledge. As far as I can tell, there's no one I've seen or heard about on this planet that has his kind of magic. But I'm always willing to learn and listen. I am a truth-seeker, after all.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 05:18:16 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Bravo, absolutely brilliant
Message:
you said'And he makes me laugh often. I think he could be a professional comedian if he wanted to'

Absolutely on target. I couldn't agree with you more as I'm sure everybody who has heard him speak would agree with you.

This is the one thing that exs and premies can agree upon.

We could all give him references for his new job.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:22:12 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Twelve Gurus
Message:
In response to your question...I've been studying with my 'latest guru' for about seventeen years now. The others I checked out or studied with or listened to for periods lasting from hours to months. Except for Guru Maharaj Ji...that lasted three or four years. (Of course, I've spent years with the no-guru approach too, which works for some people.)

And given that this is the ex-premie forum, surely you won't mind if I take a parting swipe at the Master: If you think Mahahraji is a comedian, you obviously haven't been watching enough TV recently. When you're in love, your lover often seems funnier to you than to anyone else; I imagine this is the operative dynamic here.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 14:18:39 (GMT)
From: heard of
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: still frames?
Message:

You should have seen him doing the techniques when he was previewing the new Knowledge session video. Like a rock!

Those were still frames in the video, and he didn't even stick around to meditate while the video was being shown. What were you doing looking at the video? You were 'supposed' to be meditating.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 09:53:46 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Shroo - I worry about you.........
Message:
With your type of mindless devotion , you may be reincarnated as a dog. A DOGVOTEE.... Woof woof lick lick.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 17:58:06 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: It's just a poem, Stonor. Did you like it? Or do
Message:
Shroo,

You are such a fucking big headed condescending jerk . Why do you think that Stonora can't experience stillness and peace without Goom Rodgies package. I read her recently saying that she'd meditated and had those experiences. Fucking hell. No wonder Maha's cult is dying with prats like you going out in cyberspace trying to expound the virtues of being a priggish asshole premie slave . Do you think you're in some kind of exclusive heaven ? You're not, you're in a grubby little personality cult !

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 11:49:58 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Ramakrishna, singing about the grief of a gopi
Message:
Ah, if Krishna could only be the toilet paper in my bathroom,
Carefully I will make him into folds, and clean my two checks with Him.
Why should Krishna care at all to be the toliet paper up my bum?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 10:31:42 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
Message:
I prefer that fairy story to the Indian ones. Also, Cinderella has a much better theme and story line and is suitable for all the family and not just weird Hindu fakirs standing on one leg.

Mind you, I forgot, Maharaji is Krishna, isn't he and you're a Gopi.

I haven't told you this yet but I am a devotee of the Goddess Isis and am pining for her. Read my story in She by H Rider Haggard.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 05:30:23 (GMT)
From: Sam
Email: -
To: Everyone
Subject: lord video
Message:
to get this video sent to Australia, with currency changes and shipping will cost about $90. Can anyone who has seen it tell me how long it is and if it is really worth seeing?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:16:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: lord video
Message:
I have a copy of it that I got for $29.95 on Amazon.com. It is about an hour, and definitely worth seeing, at least for any ex-premie.

It has classic stuff, like Maharaji getting hit in the face with a pie, and interview with the guy Fakiranand tried to kill who threw the pie, and interview with Fats Goldstein, this premie security guy, who said he would have slit the guy's throat, lots of really embarrassing comments by Rennie Davis (who calls Maharaji 'Gumradji,' lots of spaced-out looking premies, darshan, Bohle Ji looking like a total idiot, Bal Bhagwan Ji predicting that the pope would receive knowledge and how Maharaji performed a miracle and turned a dog into a vegetarian, and lots of shots of the Millennium Festival, including Maharaji's ever-evasive press conference. The video even reveals the techniques.

Does Australia have VHS format? I could loan you my copy if you promise to send it back to me.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:51:22 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Joe
Subject: lord video
Message:
you're so nice to offer. You must live in usa as it cost $48 with shipping costs to Australia and then the exchange rate makes it about $90. Problem is if you are o.s. there'd still be shipping costs etc.SO NICE OF YOU-THANKS (OZ DOES HAVE VHS)
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 03:51:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: Joger02@aol.com
To: sam
Subject: lord video
Message:
Yes, I live in California. I can send it to you if you send me your address via email. If you like you can pass it around to the other Australian exes.

Are you going to the Olympics?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 18:17:35 (GMT)
From: Holiness
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: lord video
Message:
It also depends on the number of viewers. So far, my copy has been seen by about 10 folks. If you swear to make good use of it, I could manage to send you some print. Get in touch.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:55:28 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Holiness
Subject: lord video
Message:
This could be positive. Could you tell me more. I'd try to make as good use as I could. Thanks for making this offer-hope we talk more about it
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 17:52:31 (GMT)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Sam
Subject: lord video
Message:
I think it's about an hour long.
I thought it was pretty entertaining, it was all filmed at the millenium festival in Houston in '73.
Worth 9o dollars? not really no, unless you're wealthy enough for that to be an insignificant amount of money.

my opinion

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:58:15 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Marshall
Subject: lord video
Message:
That's the problem it is a lot of money- almost, no exactly the cost of the first satellite double bill program afternoon I went to about 12 months ago hmm...hmmm..
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:05:43 (GMT)
From: A Yank
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: Isn't Aussie 90 dollars about 50 US? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 02:01:59 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: A Yank
Subject: yesthats right(29.99plus shipping=that amount-nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 01:22:52 (GMT)
From: ET
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Tribe Has Spoken!
Message:
Maharaji must leave the island!

PS: It wasn't Rudy after all - ha ha.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 02:04:04 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: ET
Subject: Now, you've ruined everything!
Message:
Damnit! I'm not U.S. Eastern time and you've ruined my entire summer. I hate you! Ever since I left Maharaji the only thing to really capture my attention is Survivor.

Damn, I need to get a life.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 04:39:16 (GMT)
From: ET
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: At least I didn't say Rich won.
Message:
That's right - the naked gay guy won the million dollars. The polls showed everyone thought Rudy would win.

And some people say there's no God!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:13:17 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: ET
Subject: At least I didn't say Rich won.
Message:
Why would the fact that Rich won prove there's a God? The guy was just a brilliant orchestrator who outplayed the rest of the contestants. I was glad to see him win.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 02:45:48 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: if it's any consolation
Message:
I watched Big Brother til they kicked out the dancer.

the Survivor survivor was on TV last nite. seems he is being sued by his son, et al ..
for child abuse. Lots of evidence pro and con.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 03:44:50 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene/roger
Subject: if it's any consolation
Message:
UGH
That show has no appeal for me (Survivor). My instincts tell me that I would have become addicted to it all while cursing myself for watching.

Roger, was it really compelling or are you joking? It seems to be everything horrible American all rolled into one competitive money hungry package--yuck.

So who won really? I heard all about Rudy--the guy in his 70's full of big talk about 'that's what's wrong with the world today' right? Mr. Unpolitically Correct. The big lug, ya gotta love him.

Helen, once addicted to 'One Life to Live'--ha ha

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:32:56 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: if it's any consolation
Message:
That show has no appeal for me (Survivor). My instincts tell me that I would have become addicted to it all while cursing myself for watching.

I loved it. I thought it was a great cast of characters and a lot of fun to watch. I'm sorry it's ended. Can't wait for the one that starts in January where the 'survivors' are castaway in the Australian outback.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 03:01:36 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: if it's any consolation
Message:
I am shocked, outraged, flabbergasted that you, Jerry the intellectual and rational giant that you are, have enjoyed that rubbish!
Psyche!
Whatever floats yer boat, dearie. I just don't have any desire to watch TV unless I am so depressed I can't do anything else. I guess I associate watching TV with depression, ain't that something? I never was into TV. When growing up, TV was what you did when there was absolutely nothing else to do, noone could come out to play, you didn't have any good library books, etc. Guess I still feel that way. Unless of course ER is on.

But of course with your endorsement, I may be persuaded to flip it on, just to see what all the hubbub is about.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:20:10 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: if it's any consolation
Message:
Hi Helen -
Brian made me watch the ending to one of the 'Survivor' shows - the part where they vote to kick someone out in a 'tribal ceremony' - and I laughed my head off. It was unbelievably stupid and funny. I am glad I saw at least part of one episode so I could understand what people were talking about, but I thought it was ludicrous.

I don't like TV either - I get too bored while I am watching it. I will watch 'The West Wing' and a few other shows, but that is it. EXCEPT for sports that is!! (snicker)

Love,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:42:08 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: outback yeah put them in Amaroo
Message:
Taht would test their survival skills :)
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:46:27 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Helen
Subject: Yes, I was kidding
Message:
Indeed, I was kidding. I've probably watched a total of about 30 minutes of Survivor.

But what is better than Survivor and Big Brother is real life like a goddamn job. In all of these shows you are dealing with insane over-driven personalities and you always have the option to walk away and they have the option to fire you.

Sounds like these forums, too.

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 23:08:29 (GMT)
From: Gabriel Golden
Email: ggolden@planetarymotion.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Cult List
Message:
These notions have been blowing my mind lately; what a truly irredeemably buggered up society/world we live in.

My (admittedly very broad) definition of a 'cult:'

'An organization of 2 or more people characterized by a severe imbalance of power and destructive, addictive/codependent beliefs and behaviors'

We think of Maharaji, Heaven's Gate, etc, as cults, but by the broader definition, the list would have to include:

- Governments; particularly those which represent strong political ideologies
- The overwhelming majority of corporations, non-profits, and just about any other hierarchically-structured organization
- A large proportion of romantic/sexual 'relationships'
- Most families
- Fame and celebrity of all stripes

Holy crap, the list goes on and on ...

'Cultic' thinking/behavior appears to be the status quo, no?

GG

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 02:06:29 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Gabriel Golden
Subject: Freewill systemically denied.
Message:
It all boils down to the enslavement/domination of one individual human being by another, the submission of one human being to another's will.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 02:52:39 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Yeah, it sounds like YOU know what you're talking
Message:
about. At least you can define it for your intellect. 'Free will systemically denied'??!!? Right, Stonor! I guess all these 'ex' premies had their free will systemically denied. Whatever that means. Only someone who has never been in a 'cult' could come up with that one. Get a life, Stonor.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 13:29:08 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Yeah, it sounds like YOU know what you're talking
Message:
Logic has no boundaries, shroom? Think about it.

Do you think that you need to be a cult memeber to spot the guru's tricks? There is so much information in the subject of cult entrapment that anybody who reads about the dynamics of guruji's cult can get to good conclussions: Gruruji is fake!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 12:49:47 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Where does your blind hatred come from Shroom?
Message:
Where does your blind hatred come from Shroom? I can't believe it comes from 'knowledge', because my my meditation and other practices have always helped to open my heart and mind to the 'bigger picture'.

BTW, I don't believe you understood either Gabriel's nor my post.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 15:34:51 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Where does your blindness come from Stonor?
Message:
I don't hate you, Stonor. I don't know you. How can I hate you or love you? Why do you persist in putting Maharaji and his Knowledge in your 'box' of 'free will systemically denied' cult hysteria? Trying to warn others? Trying to commiserate with the 'ex' cult members? Putting in your two cents worth? What do you know? You don't know Maharaji. You don't know his Knowledge. You don't even know yourself. To me, it's sad. Get it?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 18:00:16 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: FUCK OFF SHROO YOU MAKE ME PUKE ! nt
Message:
s
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 16:24:00 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: No verbal abuse, please. It just creates more.
Message:
I don't want to sound picky, but even if I do, please understand that I don't like ANY form of abuse, for any reason.
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:14:15 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I'm tempted to say the same to you Stonora.....
Message:
as I said to Shroo. Sometimes I find that there is just no equally effective substitute for fuck off. Do you know anything else I could use which has the same impact?

Go away , piss off...... No I can't think of anything ...Help me

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:33:45 (GMT)
From: Stonora
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: LOL Halo, know how you feel!!!
Message:
That's one thing I mention to ham in my post to him above, 'Good we seem to have cut through some of the BS.'. I think that's a very good question, but I'm not sure that I can help! I'm working on it all the time myself, especially around here! Sometimes I just say nothing. Michael had a great one going with that mantra to Shroom that ended with, 'And he's a pilot!' I find that inspiration helps sometimes. I remember once, I was in the metro (subway in Montreal) and I saw a kid taking the cellophane of his new record and just dropping it on the platform. I picked it up and walked up behind him and said very sincerely, excuse me, but I think you dropped this. He actually said thanks and put it in a garbage can!! Another time I wasn't so good. A man was sitting in his spotless white car, and I watched him throw his empty cigarette package on the street. I walked over to him and shot it back through his open window saying something like 'the street is not a garbage can.' I know it might seem like a tangent, but I hope it makes some sense. I haven't been spending as much time as usual on my posts today. But honestly, I'd love to see a thread discussing that question.

Hope your weekend is going well. My homeopathic remedy has really been showing its stuff lately. All the shit above is not affecting me like it used to, and I'm feeling so much better in general.

And I really appreciate that you didn't take that wrong. you would have had every right to, from what I've been told. ;-)

Nice talking with you, Halo!

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:07:24 (GMT)
From: Floyd
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Hey Teacher ; leave us kids alone !
Message:
fg
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:41:34 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Floyd
Subject: For a kid you've got interesting taste in music!
Message:
Cheap shot though, Floyd. Bet your aim was better with spitballs!
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:53:38 (GMT)
From: Schoolmarm Stonor
Email: None
To: Floyd in the Pink
Subject: PS Floyd ...
Message:
Remember that popular expression, 'Those who can do, and those who can't teach'? Teachers in England and North America (at least this I know of) are among the most common targets of bullying. If you visit that site, they've improved upon that expression, IMO: 'Those who can do, and those who can't, bully.'
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:00:24 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Yeah, you are sick, Hal. Stonor's apologist! NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:33:20 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Just expressing my true unadulterated feelings nt
Message:
gsg
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:16:11 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: As were the Hutus (nt)
Message:
;klj;
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:39:23 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: O
Subject: O , I never thought you were so sensitive to the F
Message:
word. I hope you don't have to be around your master in the flesh as he is very fond of telling people to fuck off. Didn't you know that ? I'm not keen on overuse of it myself and it is perhaps a sign of a lack of ability to express clearly but sometimes I don't know what else to say. With Shroo I have tried to have an honest conversation but it's like talking to a computer program. No real in touchness or honesty.

Best wishes to you O
Hal

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 02:21:26 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: and BTW, GG, are you an atheist, as Jim described?
Message:
In a thread last Saturday, Jim 'was complaining about Gabriel Golden's zeal to enlighten us about atheism which was actually started in a lower thread.'

That's not the way I read your posts, so I was curious how you feel about him defining you as an atheist.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 16:35:03 (GMT)
From: Gabriel Golden
Email: ggolden@planetarymotion.net
To: Stonor
Subject: and BTW, GG, are you an atheist, as Jim described?
Message:
I'm glad you didn't read the posts that way, Stonor. I tried to go out of my way to state that anything I say is *opinion* and not *fact.* Sure, maybe its 'fact' to me, but I'm not so naive as to think that anyone who doesn't think like I do is 'wrong.'

Yes, I'm an atheist. I spent much of my life as a 'seeker,' and came to the conclusion that there 'God,' simply put, is an emotion, albeit a very powerful one. These days, I seek 'God' in quality relationships with other people.

GG

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 17:30:30 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Gabriel Golden
Subject: and BTW, GG, are you an atheist, as Jim described?
Message:
Are you sure about that GG? I don't think an atheist would have written this (from your post last week):

Point Two: In actuality, I DON'T KNOW who/what created me, if anyone/anything created me, and more importantly, I don't WANT to know! This is called the MYSTERY of life, and one of the things that makes it beautiful.

From what I understand there is no 'mystery' for an atheist. Evolution created man, and thanks to science the 'mystery' of life is being solved through the 'scientific method'. There is no 'God' for an atheist, not even 'in quality relationships with other people', as you wrote above.

For a number of reasons I have never believed in the traditional concept of 'God', but have come to realize that I am an agnostic, not an atheist. Would you do me a favour? Could you check in a good dictionary and tell me what you think, if you have a spare minute? This definition of agnosticism sounds much like the segment of your post from last week:

The theory that first truths, substance, cause, the human soul, and a First Cause, can neither be proved nor disproved and must remain unknown or unknowable; nescience. The theory that God is unknown or unknowable: distinguished from atheism. (Funk and Wagnall's)

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 01:49:16 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Gabriel Golden
Subject: Cult List
Message:
I think your definition of cultic behavior is a little broad.

What you're getting at, I think, is that non-rational affiliations are cults. However, our whole evolutionary history - who we are - is based on non-rational affiliations: tribe, mating, etc.

In fact, cult members often specifically abhor families and governments.

It is true, though, that MINDLESS adherence to any political party, family, or philosophy involves similar psychological patterns as a cultist's.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 16:38:16 (GMT)
From: Gabriel Golden
Email: ggolden@planetarymotion.net
To: Gregg
Subject: Cult List
Message:
You bring up some very interesting points. I agree with you that 'non-rational' affiliations are indeed often necessary to our functioning both as individuals and in groups. The key thing I was trying to communicate in my *broad* definition of 'cult' was the *imbalance of power*; i.e. one party demands/sucks up a great deal of power, and the other willingly gives it, without it being a 2-way street, ebb and flow kind of thing.

GG

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:19:41 (GMT)
From: Yolycow
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Wazzup!
Message:
Anyone with a fast modem should not miss the series of wazzup ads stuffed with hardcore spiritual messages. Here's hint.

1
http://www.adcritic.com/content/budweiser-true-wazzup-the-woman.html

2
http://www.adcritic.com/content/budweiser-true-wasabi.html

3
http://www.adcritic.com/content/cartoon-network-true-wazzup.html

4
http://www.adcritic.com/content/spoof-budwanker-losers.html

5
http://www.adcritic.com/content/fox-family-angela-anaconda.html

6
http://www.adcritic.com/content/budweiser-true-wazzup-call-waiting.html

7
http://www.adcritic.com/content/spoof-budweiser-wazzup-grandmas.html

8
http://www.adcritic.com/content/budweiser-true-wazzup.html

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:47:25 (GMT)
From: Dwork
Email: None
To: Yolycow
Subject: Wazzup!
Message:
These are great. I guess seeing all of them give it a new prespective. Now for the spiritual dimension, I think I only get part of it.

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 17:16:00 (GMT)
From: His Holiness
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Holy smoke
Message:
I am always late with flicks designed for the american audience. Holy smoke is a feature in which a character played by Kate Winslet is being dragged into an indian sect and then deprogrammed. Not a great flick if you ask me. Flawed writing. Has this been discussed here before? Any reaction? Any reflection on the matter? Anyone here once was involved in the process of deprogramming?

Ghee. I once had planned to be a Mahatma by now. I guess you might say I either am a late bloomer or was fooled into believing in illumination.

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 17:27:59 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: His Holiness
Subject: it never came to our city
Message:
The movie got bad reviews but I still want to see it.
Is it out on video?
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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:33:54 (GMT)
From: Hole in his
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Yes, I saw it on video
Message:
I had never heard of it. So, critics were bad. I can see why. There are pictures od Sum Young Moon, Korech and a bearded, spiritual looking old man. Who is it?
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 02:42:30 (GMT)
From: ET
Email: None
To: Hole in his
Subject: That was Rajneesh (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:28:59 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: it never came to our city
Message:
Hi Selene,
I rented it a week or so ago so yes, it is out on video. I like Harvey Kitel(sp) also so I wanted to see it anyway. As it turned out Kate Winslet's family was from Australia so that was nice, had me thinking of Harry. For those reasons alone it was worth watching.
I thought it was an ok movie until Harvey started getting out of hand and then is just seemed to over the top, rather unbelievable, I thought.
I also rented Angela's Ashes at the same time and although I liked the movie I just kept thinking that I was sure reading the language of the book would have made the story much richer, anyway, I remembered your posting about the book and thought of you while watching the movie.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 02:49:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: angela's Ashes etc
Message:
I'll rent Holy Smoke w/o many expectations.

ditto for Angelas Ashes. I dont think they could ever capture the magic of that book but I'll rent it anyway.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 03:33:24 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: people of this thread
Subject: angela's Ashes etc
Message:
Selene--I have heard that the movie of Angela's Ashes is very good. I loved the book and it is so hard explaining to people that a book about so much misery could be so damned funny!
Holy SMoke did get terrible reviews. If only deprogramming were that easy, is right, Lurkex. It's so much more subtler than that ain't it?

One of us will write the ex-premie screenplay one day hopefully. Problem is I can only write the scenes about premies on the fringes. Some ex-PAM hs to write the really juicy stuff.

Hi RObyn--I like Harvey Keitel too. I go for those older guys, no Brad Pitts for me!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 04:17:36 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Harvey Keitel is sexy
Message:
not sure why but he is.
OK I will rent Angela's Ashes , it can't be any worse than
Ninth Gate, I rented that the other day, yuck.

My fav, is Point of No Return. Harvey plays a cleaner as usual.
But I loved the story. Bridgette Fonda really acts,
its a redo of
La Femme Nakita.

ok thanks for the distraction from more more more drama in real life than anyone would believe!!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:14:00 (GMT)
From: Holiness
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: A typical girl film critic.
Message:
'The film was barely okay, but the actor is sexy' This is the typical girl comment on flicks. It's often heard about below average flicks in which play:

Harvey Keitel
Brad Pitt
Leonardo di Caprio
Tom Cruise
Patrick Swayzee (whatever)

Beside, they loved 'the piano' another Campion flick also with Keitel portraying a rapist.

I'm alway flabergasted to realize girls find sexy an actor who portrays more than his fair share of rapist. In the latest occurence he also is a transvestite. No wonder I never had much success. In reality, Charles Manson has better chances than Richard Simmons or George Legere.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:02:58 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Holiness
Subject: typical male response, didn't read my post right
Message:
I said Point of No Return was really good.
Harvey wasn't IN Ninth Gate, Hello????????
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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 21:35:41 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Holy Smoke and sex
Message:
I saw it when it came out and I thought it was quite a good movie abour sex and manipulative relationships but rather unrealistic about gurus and deprogramming. The guru was some sort of combination of Rajneesh and MJ, but not particularly bad. All they had to do to deprogram her was show her some silly video of Heaven's Gate. Well, if it were only that easy! That kind of thing would have entrenched me further, because I would have said inside myself, 'They don't understand. DLM isn't like that.'

I do recommend the movie, though. Great acting and it ends in an uplifting message about KINDNESS.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 18:15:37 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: What I think did it
Message:
Lurkex,

I don't think it was the video of dangerous cult leaders that made her re-evaluate herself so much as when she saw the words 'Be Kind' that Keitel had written on her forward, when she looked in the mirror. It was then that she fully realized that she was kidding herself that she had achieved any high ideals or enlightenment through Baba. A poignant moment in the film, one of a very few. The other one that stands out is when she climbed onto the bed of the truck to cradle and comfort her tormentor, Harvey Keitel. At that point, I felt that she had recaptured her humanity, which was the point of the whole film, I think. What's better, to be blissed, or to be a compassionate human being? I'll take the latter. You don't get that in a way of life that focuses on inner 'experience'.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 06:09:58 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Holy Smoke and sex
Message:
Yeah, it did end on a good note. But it was CRAZY before it got there. I loved the scene where Kate Winslet had her third eye opened. Every premies fantasy, and from what I hear, some people actually had such an experience. Alas, not I. Just as well. I also loved the scene of Harvey Keitel having a mirage, out in the desert, of the goddess Lakshmi while 'Baby It's You' is playing in the background. Very artfully done, and where I want to go when I die, if Lakshmi looks as good as she did in this film.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 12:15:36 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Holy Smoke and sex
Message:
Hi Lurkex,
Yes, I forgot about the ending, the caring that stayed in place between them over time. That was nice.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 03:46:50 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: Joger02@aol.com
To: Robyn
Subject: To Robyn
Message:
Hi Robyn,

Jessica's friend Jonathan is house/dog sitting for me this weekend and he said that he didn't have Jessica's new phone number. Apparently the person Jessica gave it to isn't around or something. Can you email it to me so I can pass it on to him? He says he misses her and wanted to find out how she was doing in her new place. Hope you are doing well.

Joe

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 16:44:32 (GMT)
From: His Holiness
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I saw TheLordOfTheUniverse video.
Message:
I saw TheLordOfTheUniverse video. I found it disturbing. I was around then in 1973 and even was surprised not to see myself in the film. This really is the way we were. Fanatics and deluded. It's no surprise when we see where all this was coming from. We were going with it. I was only 19 then and in no position to question what the group and the guys up on the stage were saying. I kind of expected the stadium to fly away, got rid of my winter coat, did pranam in parking lots and kissed feet (Ki Jay). I hid the videorecording from my spouse and advise every old timer to see it. This is a powerful document.

Mind you it would be sick for anyone to be that deluded at my age and that many decades later; it only is cute that I was for a short while at that age. Life had to go on. Would please anyone tell my wife it doesn't prove I suffer from a personality defect.

We watched Holy smoke last Friday. A feature film from Jane Campion (The piano, An angel at my table) about the fat girl who played in Titanic (Kate Winslet) being deprogrammed from an indian sect. My wife asked me if we had special costumes then. I must find a safe hiding place for that video. We were weirder than she suspect.

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 19:01:37 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: His Holiness
Subject: I saw TheLordOfTheUniverse video aussi
Message:
One of the most disturbing parts of the video for me is the press conference. Even then, M didn't answer in any straightforward manner. I found his behavior embarassing and I couldn't believe I had been such a fool as to be duped like that.

I was more vocal than most people back then because I was a treasurer taking care of almost 300 people, and DLM would appropriate the cash for M's use (as in zero-out the account), rather than let me use it to take care of the needs of the premies (basics like sox, underwear, and rent). I was told quite a bit that 'you aren't meditating, sister.' I must've been cognitive dissonance made flesh, because even though I continued to bitch, I stayed with it. I had quite the DMZ between my perceptions and my actions.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 16:01:47 (GMT)
From: the press conference
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: was scary ala Manson
Message:
When I watched LOTU this year I had also just seen some old news stuff of Charlie Manson and followers.

There was a remarkable similarity in one dynamic. When the Guru or Manson is evading a reasonable and damning press question they respond in a flippant way and then direct their attention away from the 'non premie' or 'establishment pigs' to the adoring cult members. The cult members then laugh adoringly and uproariously at the joke that God is making. One really should look at the two side by side. The attitude is the same, the cult members are getting the joke, isn't it funny to watch our Lord tolerate the outside world, we are so special we understand him, and look at these fools treating him as an ordinary human.

I found it chilling. I am glad our devotion was never 'tested' in the same fashion as Charly's followers. There is even that guy in LOTU saying he would kill for Rawat. Scary.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:10:42 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: the press conference
Subject: Flippant Answers...
Message:
I don't know about Charles Manson, but that was definitely something Maharaji did. There was this sort of 'us v. them' mentality, and Maharaji could get support from his cult followers for anything he did, because they believed he was perfect and those asking the questions were confused and drowning in the river of maya.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 01:56:21 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Discrepancies
Message:
Hi Monmot. It always disturbed me that we ashram residents, who gave up our paychecks, could not count on getting basic necessities like underwear, or dental or medical care. I remember when I was in the Columbus ashram in 1974, a bunch of us went to a local health clinic for physicals. The ashram never paid for it, even though these health professionals gave us lots of services. They told me that I had a kidney infection developing. I moved out of the ashram soon thereafter and ended up hospitalized for the kidney infection within a month. I never understood how the ashram officials could rationalize not paying those folks.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:25:16 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hi Marianne...
Message:
I can't donate a kidney, but would you like me to send you some sox or underwear? :-)))

Hope all is well.

M

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 03:19:26 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: No kidney needed!
Message:
Hi Monmot! The kidney thing was a single episode, thankfully, so although I appreciate your offer, I do not need it. I think it is my ashram experience that makes me hoarde undies to this day!

Hope you are doing well.

Fondly, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 12:38:52 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Discrepancies
Message:
Because in those days the world was an illussion. We were asked not to be responsible with the world because guruji and K were the only real thing in this world. I know of a mahatma who dinned in a restaurant with some premies, he invited the premies to dine with him, and when the bill came they walked away without paying it, laughing; one of my friends was there and told me about it. After that many premies began to do the same!

The cult mentality convinced people that honesty was important only when directed to the master: The only 'real' being in the Universe.

Hi M!

SB

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:57:29 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Justification for unethical behavior
Message:
Hi SB -
That's a horrible story about the restaurant. (I am sure you know that the waitress usually has to pay the bill if people that she waits on leave without paying. Brian's son did this once in a Waffle House when he was a teenager and he STILL feels awful about it 10 years later - he has a good moral conscience, though!)

I never really knew premies who acted like this (or at least I didn't know it if I did), but I heard a lot of stories about it later. You are right that it is completely irresponsible, and that people who did things like this felt that they were 'above morality' because of their association with Maharaji.

Take care,
Love -
Katie

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:23:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: His Holiness
Subject: I saw TheLordOfTheUniverse video.
Message:
I know what you mean about the video. It's incredibly funny, but also very confronting. I also was relieved that I don't show up anywhere in the video, although I was at the Millennium Festival.

I have shown the film to my partner, after some preparation of course. You have to look at it in context. We were very young, it was a different time, we were idealistic, and we got caught up in the whole 'movement' of the thing. I think he basically accepts the whole thing, and doesn't see me as weird, although he can't relate that I could have ever been involved in anything like that. He just can't fathom it.

But what the video clearly shows, is how programmed many of us were. To say those ridiculous things -- to accept Maharaji being blatantly worshipped while wearing crowns and sitting on a throne, and seeing people kiss his feet. Strong stuff.

But what was the best thing about the film, was seing our former fat Guru Maharaj Ji getting splatted in the face with a cream pie. That was great. Every ex-premie should see that.

It was also great to see that even at that early time, there were ex-premies, who had figured out that it was one thing to be given meditation techniques, but that there was no logical connect between that and being eternally grateful to some chubby messiah figure. And these weren't rocket scientists who figured out the truth, either. These were just ordinary people who received knowledge and just followed their intuitions that there was something really wrong with the whole scene. In retrospect, I realize I had many of those same feelings, but for some reason I didn't trust them. Maybe because I felt desperate and wanted so badly for it to be true. I wish I had.

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 19:27:34 (GMT)
From: Hole in his O
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: We were hard-boiled fanatics and part of a ...
Message:
We were hard-boiled fanatics and part of a fanatic organization. I guess if I had been just a little older and more mature and not as dependant and insecure, I may have been more critical and would have ended-up being tossed-out somehow. I convinced myself to go along in spite of the no-sensical absurdity of it all. Too much was at stake. Belonging to a group is very powerful. Specially fo those freshly out of childhood as I was. Specially when lodging is at stake. I must remember this since I am responsible for letting my young adults loose any day now.

Then there was this culture of 'Us against them'. One can see it clearly in the video. The end was near. Just as it is for every other religious nuts. We knew, 'they' were against 'us'. We were pretentious and contemptuous. We pretended we 'had the experience of God' and 'knowledge of God'. History proved nothing dramatic happened but it may have just as it did for other cult members who were shot, poisoned or burned. Looking back is quite healthy. We have been lucky. Rawat must be stopped.

You hear a few say something stereotyped as 'I was into drugs (politics, illusion, school) and M showed me the way.' Funny how we thought this was original. I hear it from every religious nut since. Just the lyrics of the song tell the whole story. 'Open up you heat to the universe of love and he will fill you up.' This guru-guy can't plead he was immature and carried-away. He was very aware of everything and, to this day, continues to surf the wave. Won't anyone help me stop him? MICHEAL DETTMERS are you there?

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 23:22:01 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Hole in his O/DonQuixotte
Subject: Stopping the rot
Message:
I am into trying to stop god-in-a-bod. Any ideas (bearing in mind that this is a public forum that premies read)?? I would like to speak to M , to confront him, preferably publically. I know (re other posts on this thread) that it is good to look at one's own reasons for being a premie, but nevertheless responsibility must lie , not just with us as individuals (lots of so-called normal people have been premies, most human beings want love, and find themselves vulnerable at various points in their lives -- we are no different from those)but with the big M.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 18:48:06 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Stopping the rot
Message:
You want to do something?

Here's an idea:

contact the IRS at http://www.ustreas.gov/irs/ci/tax_fraud_hotline.htm and ask them why Elan Vital is registered as a church, when it no longer ascribes to the beliefs it propagated back in the days when it acquired non-profit status. The IRS may not even be aware that there's been a significant change in EV's stand on its 'religious' belief.


Here's a quote from the IRS requirements for Religious Organizations:


To determine whether an organization meets the religious purposes test of section
501(c)(3), the IRS maintains two basic guidelines:

1.That the particular religious beliefs of the organization are truly and sincerely
held, and
2.That the practices and rituals associated with the organization's religious
belief or creed are not illegal or contrary to clearly defined public policy.

Therefore, your group (or organization) may not qualify for treatment as an exempt
religious organization for tax purposes if its actions, as contrasted with its beliefs,
are contrary to well established and clearly defined public policy. If there is a clear
showing that the beliefs (or doctrines) are sincerely held by those professing them,
the IRS will not question the religious nature of those beliefs.

Churches. Although a church, its integrated auxiliaries, or a convention or
association of churches is not required to file Form 1023 to be exempt from federal
income tax or to receive tax deductible contributions, the organization may find it
advantageous to obtain recognition of exemption. In this event, you should submit
information showing that your organization is a church, synagogue, association or
convention of churches, religious order, or religious organization that is an integral
part of a church, and that it is engaged in carrying out the function of a church.

In determining whether an admittedly religious organization is also a church, the IRS
does not accept any and every assertion that the organization is a church. Because
beliefs and practices vary so widely, there is no single definition of the word
'church' for tax purposes. The IRS considers the facts and circumstances of each
organization applying for church status.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 12:32:28 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Stopping the rot
Message:
We ex-premies,all would like to stop guruji!!

I wrote few people but it seems they are not interested in the story. Somebody will go fo it, sooner or later; the odds say so.
Have you wrote about your experience in the cult? If you did I would send it to...you get the idea.

Have you ever posted here before? I noticed your name few days a go. Have you posted with another names? Just curious.

SB

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:59:03 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Stopping the rot
Message:
No, I haven't posted in another name. Have been reading this site for some time, and will do a 'journey' soon.I'm English, got K in 1978, after 17 months of near-nightly satsang/brainwashing and practised it for a few years in the belief that M was the real thing (ie god-in-a-bod).Then spent 10 years trying to figure out what was going on when he stopped announcing his divinity-- have much anger for all the time I've spent/wasted on him, not to mention other things like getting an underactive thyroid gland, probably due to meditating for 3 hours a day with a new baby and 2 other kids under 5 (and thus having very little sleep).Have ideas about sabotage campaign, but can't say on a public forum. Will try to set up an E mail address without my real name on it. Will get back to you.
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 13:55:44 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Hahahahahhahahaah! 'God in a bod' love it! (nt)
Message:
heee hee hee he hh\h\=====dsfhbwohfbewjfvs
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:46:49 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Welcome!! Please do. ;) (nt)
Message:
Great
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 18:41:59 (GMT)
From: Holiness
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Are you talking to me?
Message:
Yes I have posted on journey page and many times on the forum. Being a little paranoďd I often change nick. I even once was kicked-out for it. I can now brag about being an ex-ex-ex-premie. I was a premie who became an ex-premie who then, when I got kicked-out of here became an ex-ex-premie and, when I returned became an ex-ex-ex-premie. How's that for size? If you really need to get in touch with me, ask Joey for my credentials. He has my phone number and knows I am not a mole.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 12:04:05 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Holiness
Subject: Are you talking to me?
Message:
Are you Moldy? I answer his/her post. Or you are using two nicks in this thread? Just asking. I know rules are necesary but don't agree with all of them. Please tell me if you are Moldy, ok? So I can respond to your post to me, above.

Many do the same, use other nick to avoid being bashed. I do it sometimes too.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 00:45:07 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Are you talking to me?
Message:
No. Holinesss is not me (and I'm a girl, well, no, woman, strictly speaking) Will get back to you re above posts
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 02:41:55 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: OK. Thanks.
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:57:06 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'the most significant event in the history of the
Message:
'the most significant event in the history of the planet' was how it was billed. Believe it or not.


'Maybe because I felt desperate and wanted so badly for it to be true.'

I hear what you're saying there, Joe, and it reverberates loudly for me.

But wanting it to be true - ah, that was OUR contribution to the whole trip. And as such, I think we all need to remind ourselves, from time to time, that we have to take responsibility for, and ownership or, our OWN motivations for trying to make the Maha into the Saviour-figure that WE wanted him to be (and of course, that HE portrayed/sold himself as).

My thinking is that, if we hadn't 'given our all' to him, then it would have been some other supposed 'God-man', like Rajneesh, Sun Myung Moon, Jim Jones (or hundreds of others).

What I'm saying is that IT WAS OUR TRIP TOO.

That doesn't absolve the Maha for setting himself up as a figure worthy to be venerated, when evidently he isn't.

But we've got to leave this all behind us sometime. And IMO the best starting point for that is to say to yourself: I bought the trip for what I wanted to get from it. As it turned out, the object of my affections/aspirations let me down. AND: I should ask myself WHY I wanted someone else to fulfil a role in my life that I felt was lacking in me.

What is it with this Saviour trip anyway?

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 21:49:41 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: responsibility et al
Message:
'I think we all need
to remind ourselves, from time to time, that we have to take responsibility for, and ownership or, our OWN
motivations for trying to make the Maha into the Saviour-figure that WE wanted him to be'

Yup. I agree with you. I'm pretty clear that to an incredible degree the whole thing was an acting-out of aspects of my psyche that needed an outer theater to get my attention and get integrated. For one thing, my relationship with Lardy paralleled that with my dad to an incredible degree, and I've heard the same from friends (exes) with very different dads or with other issues that they used the whole trip to bring to their own attention from their own insides.

AND we were taken advantage of in our youth and as Don Quijote says, he isn't worthy of our veneration and he has hurt a lot of people. I feel that the particularly nasty qualities of Lardy's dishonesty and tyranny caused me harm. Physically, in particular, as I have cleared the wounds from most other levels. The disdain for the body piggybacked on a tendency I already had from my upbringing to create a self-destructive binge of overdoing service that made me ill, and I am still recovering 16 years later.

So it's both/and for me, which works very well for my consciousness. In fact, if you disagree with me, I agree with that, too... ;-)

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 20:11:09 (GMT)
From: DonQuixotte de la Mancha
Email: None
To: The unbearable world
Subject: Wait a little
Message:
Let's not take the load off his shoulders. I agree we made it easy for him to abuse us all. I agree there is freedom of faith in our countries and most of us were consenting adults. Now, does it make it excusable that he fooled us into non-sensical hogwash and abused us. Does it make any difference it was ligitimate and the victims were consenting. From a moral point of view, it was wrong and we were - I'm sorry to use the word - victims.

Now, is this over? No it isn't. As long as he'll keep surfing the wave we helped set decades ago, you could be certain I'll be in his way whenever I can until he is stopped or I die whichever comes first. Rawat has at least one ennemy.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 16:15:32 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: DonQuixotte de la Mancha
Subject: You have a partner here.
Message:
He must be brought to justice. He may be rich, and powerfully sorrounded with his lawyers, but somebody is going to listen to us, eventually. Is just a matter of time, in my opinion.
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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 21:41:54 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: DonQuixotte de la Mancha
Subject: Is this the same LOTU video made by DLM
Message:
or not? It sounds from the above posts as if it might be a documentary made by an outsider, since it seems you are saying that there are some 'anti' statements on the film, which i don't remember on the DLM version. Could someone enlighten me and if it is a new one do I get it from the store at this website?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 18:26:44 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Is this the same LOTU video made by DLM - no way!
Message:
This was made by an independent documentary team, and definitely not DLM.

In fact John Brauns, who posts here from time to time, was kind enough to lend me his copy when he emigrated to Latvia. If you're in the UK and/or have a PAL video player, I'll be happy to forward it to you. I'm sure John would like to see it being put to good use.

Cheers,

Chris

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 22:17:55 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: You can Order it from Amazon.com
Message:
Just to to Amazon.com and search under video for 'Lord of the Universe.' I think it costs $29.95. I bought my very own copy.

Be sure to read the reviews of the video on the website.

I think the video was made in 1974 for PBS and was shown on national television. I remember hearing about it then, but didn't see it. The premies were horrified because it reveals the techniques.

But you should see it. Every ex-premie, premie and aspirant should be required to see it.

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 15:49:21 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is Anne Heche God? (ot)
Message:
Move over, Big M. Actress, and famed lover to Ellen Degeneres, Anne Heche has been reported wandering dazed and telling a resident of Fresno County that 'she was God and and was going to take everyone back to heaven with her in some sort of spaceship.' Her behaviour was reported consistent with that of 'ecstacy' use. Personally, I'm not surprised that God has turned out to be a woman. I am a little surprised, though, that She's also turned out to be a lesbian.
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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 22:28:15 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Is Anne Heche God? (ot)
Message:
Bizarre, hey? I read about that too. She'd just broken up with Ellen Degeneres hadn't she? I don't know why they say that her behaviour was consistent with ecstacy use, though. Nobody I know who's taken eccy (including myself) has had any 'spaceship' episodes ... maybe it was consistent with living in Hollywood!
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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 15:57:23 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: No, Alanis Morisette is God, Jerry!
Message:
Didn't you see 'Dogma'? Snicker
If you haven't seen it yet, I highly recommend it (unless, of course someone is Catholic, in which case they may be offended)

If God was a woman, and a lesbian, she has been playing a lot of tricks these past 2000 years...

VP

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 16:26:03 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: only in the movies VP
Message:
I can't stand her otherwise. (Just my opinion.)
hey you just gave away some of the plot!!
It is a good movie for ex's to see though, I agree.
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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 16:53:41 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: true, Selene
Message:
I had reservations about posting that, but it was the joke was too good to pass up. While you are watching the movie, isn't it sort of obvious what will happen with respect to the character of God anyway?

The funniest part is the first five minutes when Matt Damon is talking to the nun in the airport, IMO. Sort of reminds me of some ex-premies around here trying to convince the faithful.

Alanis is truly one negative chick, yes. I don't like her whining myself.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 04:13:57 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: VP and Selene
Subject: Dogma
Message:
Hi you two. When I was in Ireland this year, my apartment was right next door to a cinema. They were showing Dogma there. Every night, there were priests, nuns, and other Catholics handing out leaflets protesting the movie. When it got underway, they would say the rosary over and over until it was done. My mother always told me when I was an errant teenager that people would be praying for my soul. I just never knew that it would be happening right under my bedroom window and that it would be so many people! Ah, Ireland!!

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 05:16:16 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Dogma I remember when you talked about that
Message:
They even picketed Dogma here in outlaw country.
Hope our soul got saved :)
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 05:45:43 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Dogma I remember when you talked about that
Message:
Selene, I somehow have the vision that our souls will be saved by ourselves, right??? It was hard to take having the Hail Mary shouted under my bedroom window for a month at a time, lapsed Catholic that I am.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 17:26:57 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Alannis and Dogma
Message:
the ending, well that part was kinda obviousl The movie isn't about the plot anyway, I agree it's the dialog and the writing that makes it.

Thing about Alanis. I love a lot of the alternative female vocalists. Tory Amos, Corteney, Garbage... but for some reason that woman just bothers me. I don't think she is all that talented or gets the angty msg. across well, or something. It's personal preference of course.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 03:40:25 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene/VP
Subject: Anne Heche/Travolta's Butt
Message:
Anne Heche was hot in 'The Third Miracle' with Ed Harris (mr. hottie, IMO--see I DO go for those older guys)

Another good movie for ex-premies (3rd miracle)

Veep, still haven't seen 'Dogma' but I understand it's got the ultimate Unitarian -Universalist message.

On another note altogether, 'Duece Bigelow, Male Gigolo' is hysterical, no redeeming features except that it has a bit of a feminist message.

My daughter is into the movie 'Grease' these days--watching John Travola's butt twitch is quite enthralling actually! I never understood his appeal til now! I think that movie came out when I was into the cult and never saw it , I missed a lot of popular culture type stuff back then--there is a big hole in my 'mass media knowledge from the early 80's'.

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:14:37 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Darwin Award Candidates! (OT)
Message:
From an e-mail:

They have finally been released!

For those not familiar with the Darwin Award, It's an annual honour given to the person who provided the universal human gene pool the biggest service by getting killed in the most extraordinarily stupid way. As always, competition this year has been of high standard again. Some candidates appear to have trained their whole lives for this event!

DARWIN AWARD CANDIDATES

1. In September in Detroit, a 41-year-old man got stuck and drowned in two feet of water after squeezing head first through an 18-inch-wide sewergrate to retrieve his car keys.

2. In October, a 49-year-old San Francisco stockbroker, who was always 'totally focused when he ran,' according to his wife, accidentally jogged off a 100-foot-high cliff on his daily run.

3. Buxton, NC: A man died on a beach when an 8-foot-deep hole he had dug into the sand caved in as he sat inside it. Beachgoers said Daniel Jones, 21 dug the hole for fun, or protection from the wind, and had been sitting in a beach chair at the bottom Thursday afternoon when it collapsed, burying him beneath 5 feet of sand. People on the beach, on the outer banks, used their hands and shovels, trying to claw their way to Jones, a resident of Woodbridge, VA, but could not reach him. It took rescue workers using heavy equipment almost an hour to free him while about 200 people looked on. Jones was pronounced dead at a hospital.

4. In February, Santiago Alvarado, 24, was killed in Lompoc, CA, as he fell face-first through the ceiling of bicycle shop he was burglarizing. Death was caused when the long flashlight he had placed in his mouth (to keep his hands free) rammed into the base of his skull as he hit the floor.

5. According to police in Dahlonega, GA, ROTC cadet Nick Berrena, 20, was stabbed to death in January by fellow cadet Jeffrey Hoffman, 23, who was trying to prove that a knife could not penetrate the flakvest Berrena was wearing.

6. Sylvester Briddell, Jr , 26, was killed in February in Selbyville, Del, as he won a bet with friends who said he would not put a revolver loaded with four bullets into his mouth and pull the trigger.

7. In February, according to police in Windsor, Ontario, Daniel Kolta, 27, and Randy Taylor, 33, died in a head-on collision, thus earning a tie in the game of chicken they were playing with their snowmobiles.

DARWIN AWARD HONORABLE MENTIONS

1. In Guthrie, Okla, in October, Jason Heck tried to kill a millipede with a shot from his 22-calibre rifle, but the bullet ricocheted off a rock near the hole and hit pal Antonio Martinez in the head, fracturing his skull.

2. In Elyria, Ohio, in October, Martyn Eskins, attempting to clean out cobwebs in his basement, declined to use a broom in favor of a propane torch and caused a fire that burned the first and second floors of his house.

3. Paul Stiller, 47, was hospitalized in Andover Township, NJ, in September, and his wife Bonnie was also injured, by a quarter-stick of dynamite that blew up in their car. While driving around at 2 AM, the bored couple lit the dynamite and tried to toss it out the window to see what would happen, but they apparently failed to notice that the window was closed.

4. TACOMA, WA - Kerry Bingham, had been drinking with several friends when one of them said they knew a person who had bungee-jumped from the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in the middle of traffic. The conversation grew more heated and at least 10 men trooped along the walkway of the bridge at 4:30am. Upon arrival at the midpoint of the bridge they discovered that no one had brought bungee rope. Bingham, who had continued drinking, volunteered and pointed out that a coil of lineman's cable lay nearby. One end of the cable was secured around Bingham's leg and the other end was tied to the bridge. His fall lasted 40 feet before the cable tightened and tore his foot off at the ankle. He miraculously survived his fall into the icy river water and was rescued by two nearby fishermen. 'All I can say, 'said Bingham, 'is that God was watching out for me on that night. There's just no other explanation for it.' Bingham's foot was never located.

....AND THE WINNER:

PADERBORN, GERMANY - Overzealous zookeeper Friedrich Riesfeldt fed his constipated elephant 'Stefan' 22 doses of animal laxative and more than a bushel of berries, figs and prunes before the plugged-up elephant finally let fly-and suffocated the keeper under 200 pounds of poop! Investigators say ill-fated Friedrich, 46, was attempting to give the ailing elephant an olive oil enema when the relieved beast unloaded on him like a dump truck full of mud. 'The sheer force of the elephant's unexpected defecation knocked Mr. Riesfeldt to the ground, where he struck his head on a rock and lay unconscious as the elephant continued to evacuate his bowels on top of him,' said flabbergasted Paderborn police detective Erik Dern. 'With no one there to help him, he lay under all that dung for at least an hour before a watchman came along, and during that time he suffocated.

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 19:06:11 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Video of the runner-up here? (OT)
Message:
Want to see a near miss?

Go to: http://www.legend.yorks.com/%7Esicarter/notfreesexpics3_nav/video/video.htm

and click on 'Never take an elephant from behind'

Phew!

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 22:51:53 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: That is hysterical and tragic! YUK cq!!
Message:
I saw one called 'Never crap in Greece' about this poor guy being chased by a donkey who was very very interested in his bare bum. Actually it might be on this site too!!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 18:28:23 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Hope you didn't miss 'smell the finger'! (nt)
Message:
Biggest laugh I've had for an age.
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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 03:10:53 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Anyone seen Me, Myself and Irene?
Message:
That story of this bungee-jumping ankle guy, reminded me of that scene after Jim Carrey's thumb was shot off, and in the next scene, when his hand is bandaged up and he's sitting by the ambulance and he asks the doctor 'So doc, how's my thumb doing?' and the doctor just looks deadpan and says 'I'll let you know when we find it'.
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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:32:16 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: I love those things
Message:
The one I read about the guy in LAwho put balloons on his lawnchair and ended up in the flight path of LAX was one of my favourite! Iraed that over on:
http://www.primenet.com/~bgrady/Darwin_Awards.htm

but I'm sure there are many other links :)

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 01:04:06 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I love those things
Message:
That's a great one too! I have just realised also that I'm probably one of the last people to have seen these, so sorry if most of you have seen them before. E-mail takes a very long time to get to us hear down under.
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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 22:14:49 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: More proof that gm lies and doesn't respect life
Message:
Yesterday I read the most disturbing facts ever about global warming, and lets be honest we're hardly short of relevant info now are we.

Every summer a boat takes tourists up to the arctic circle and deposits people as close to the north pole as poss. They couldn't get to their usual spot because for the first time they found that the ice on the surface had melted, and was unstable.
Now to anyone living on a pacific island or low ground level who is seeing the land around them disappearing into the sea this is no shock, but to the scientists present on this boat who were well informed it was a shock.

So I was thinking about the environment, and how socially we're ever going to get to grips with this problem, which has at best been exaccerbated by our lifestyles and industrial pollution, and at worst triggered by it, as well as sunspot activity and the el nino and el nina volcano explosion in mexico a few years back.
Obviously any solution has to involve everyone in a greater respect for life.

Cue gm, and his constant screeching about how much he respects life. Now life without an environment to sustain it seems highly unlikely. In environmental terms then what has he done to help protect the environment.
Bought loads of gas guzzling cars.
Run his own helicopter.
Polluted the higher atmospheres with his planes.

If he REALLY respected life surely he would be into car sharing and public transport, if he must fly surely he would reduce his one man committment to pollution and energy drainage, by flying public. The Argument always was that he has to fly loads and doesn't have the time if he's gonna save the planet. Well he's no longer lacking the time, and has given up trying to save the planet/human race. So what's the block.
The block is the size of his ego, and his lack of humility.

The wonderful world of pr & spin.
And this topic I would love to see him try to answer with an f.a.q

Of course if anyone can give us examples of his respect for the environment and thus his respect for life I will be more than happy to admit I'm wrong, but...... we'll see

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 04:36:07 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Maharaji doesn't realize how 'in the way' he is.
Message:
Maharaji would never win any popularity contests, that's for sure. I don't suppose he realizes that his obnoxious and obscene wealth really gets in the way of most people seeing him as doing anything other than being into the whole 'master' trip for the money he has made and the way he gets to live.

If Maharaji was really interested in revealing 'knowledge' to as many people as possible, he would modify his lifestyle to make himself as relatable to people as possible. He would also spend his huges riches on letting people know knowledge exists instead of on expensive toys for himself.

Instead, he hides out in his luxury, fortress mansions, flies around in private planes speaking to the converted, and building a 'conference center' off in the far corner or the Earth, where he hopes no one will notice.

Like many people have said on this forum, actions speak a lot louder than words.

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:42:23 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: More proof that gm lies and doesn't respect life
Message:
Dear ham,
Hi! I think you may know that this is a tender subject for me, the environment, not m! That part is easy, he doesn't give a shit!
Anyway, the global warming is surely exacerbated(sp) if not directly caused by pollution. It could be a natural earth cycle, geologic time referenced, not human time but surely we haven't helped the environment in any aspect if you look at the big picture! So many things run through my mind, burning the rainforest for next to no benifit, nuclear accidents in Russia, Three Mile Island and other 3rd world countries testing under the ocean surface! Toxic dumping, the list is depressing and endless. You are right that any solution has to include a new and more conscience purpose by all and sorry but I don't see it happening. The only 'peace of mind' I can get is to hope that the Gia(sp) Theory is correct and even if we obliterate life on this planet that in it's own geologic time the earth will heal itself. If I knew that were true I'd feel even better but I don't think that humans will have any part in pulling the earth out of the pending environmental disaster.
Sorry to be so pesimistic! Hope you are doing alright! I've been on quite the walkabout myself these last couple of weeks!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:06:41 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: The environmentally freindly guru trip
Message:
Think of the glorious results of successful prachar Hamzen!

Single people all in service of the one Perfect Master,

A few lowly householders to keep the devotees coming,

All is done for him and all is his,

Only one person with desires to be fulfilled because being with him is our only desire,

Anon recalled that our lord while showing off his latest car to premies at the English residence, said 'you guys will never own a car like this.' A perfect example of the limiting of exesses
of the 3 billion devotees,

Simple foods Prince Charles would approve of for all,

Well behaved ants, we merge with the bliss and love the planet because it is his.

WE APPRECIATE IT!!

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 21:20:04 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To P'Man and Katie: Nader v. Gore (ot)
Message:
So, have you two made up your minds re Nader and Gore? I think Katie said she would support Gore, but I wasn't so sure.

Sorry, for this OT thread, but I think I've come to ao conclusion, although I have had a real hard time with this one. I was going to vote for Ralph Nader, but I think I've changed my mind, especially because it now seems, bassed on the latest polls, that Gore actually has a good chance of winning, but it is going to be very close, probably, so Nader voters might swing the election. People like Marc Cooper and Alexander Cockburn, and even my hero Barbara Ehrenreich are saying it doesn't matter and we should vote for Nader, because it's tweedledum and tweedledee. As somebody on the left, this a difficult decision, because I don't like Gore very much and I think Nader is great. I'd love to cast a protest vote, but it might have real consequences.

But since Nader can't win, a Nader vote assumes that there is no significant difference between the two major parties. But I can't agree with that. True, Clinton has been no picnic, but how much worse off would we be without his veto pen? And I think the stakes are bigger than just the president.

With the House up for grabs in a handful of closely contested seats, routine presidential coattails make this virtually a winner-take-all election. If Bush wins the presidency, Republicans are also likely to control both houses of Congress and the Supreme Court for a generation. If Gore wins, Democrats are odds-on favorites to take back control of the House, if not the Senate, and gain a moderate majority on the Court. At least two justices will likely resign in the next four years, maybe more, and to suggest that the nominees of Bush (he has spoken approvingly of both Scalia and Thomas) would be no different than Gore's is insane.

Beneath the happy talk, Bush seeks a mandate for the radical reforms left on the conservative agenda: partial privatization of Social Security, which would cut guaranteed benefits to younger workers; turning Medicare into a voucher program, which also masks a cut in guarantees; using public school funds for vouchers to private schools. He stumps for a large tax cut ($2 trillion), primarily for the wealthy, crippling the opportunity to deal with cities, poverty, the environment. These would shred much of what is left of the social contract. Other than the tax cuts, these proposals are far more radical than anything even Reagan dared to propose.

He's also for negating the minimum wage, leaving it to the states; dismantling environmental regulation; repealing affirmative action; limiting a woman's right to choose; and generally fronting for the corporate leveraged buyout of government. Think of the Gingrich Congress without Clinton's veto. Scary, isn't it? But not to the corporations and that's why they are flooding the Republican Party with record contributions. They know who is the better buy.

Gore is hardly a tribune of the working man but he is for greater investment in education, health care, children. Assuming the Democrats retake the House, liberal committee chairs in the House just might challenge Gore's timidity--and fight to stiffen his backbone. And on globalization, there is a difference between a Congress led by Hastert and DeLay and one led by Gephardt and Bonior. The lesser evil is less.

Molly Ivins says she votes with her heart in the primaries but with her head in general elections because lesser evils really are lesser, particularly for the poor and the weak. I have to say, I have come to agree with her. So, until the next time I change my mind, I am going to vote for Gore/Leiberman.

What do you guys think?

BTW, do you think Maharaji is a Republican?

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 10:18:28 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: To P'Man and Katie: Nader v. Gore (ot)
Message:
Hi Joe -
I'm definitely going to vote for Gore, even though he probably has no chance of winning Virginia (this state has gotten SO conservative!). I agree completely with Molly Ivins - I haven't been able to read her column lately, but I wish I could hear what she says about Dubya :). And I do think Dubya is far worse than Gore, especially on the environment and on women's issues (not to mention guns).

Did you read the New Yorker article about Gore? I thought it was really interesting.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 17:38:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To P'Man and Katie: Nader v. Gore (ot)
Message:
Hi Katie. I read the New Yorker Article and it actually made me more positive towards Gore. I thought he came from super wealth like Bush, but the article had a different story.

Yeah, Virginia is conservative all right. But the opposite has happened in California. California used to be a republican state, but now the democrats seem to have a lock. I think it's partly all the new Hispanic voters and the good economy. That's a big change in the past 15 years. We have two jewish, female senators, one of whom is considered the most liberal in the Senate. It looks like Gore will win here, and I know has has to win the state to get elected, although Bush said he is not writing the state off like his father and Dole did.

I read Molly Ivans every month in the Progressive Magazine, and I just started getting another publication called the Populist, and she has a long article about George Dubya. She has also written a book about him. Both are very insightful. She is great, and very funny.

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 10:29:51 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Also...
Message:
Re Maharaji being a Republican - I would guess that he would be, except he probably doesn't bother to vote. (Is he a US citizen, or does he just have his green card, anyway?)
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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 06:38:16 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Nader v. Gore and Jeremy Rifkin (ot)
Message:
I heard an interview with Nader and the interviewer asked him about the prospect of his votes helping George Dubya, and Nader replied that there were two states where Gore had no chance of winning (can't remember which two, but assume TX is one). He suggested that, in those two states, people who wanted to vote for him should because their votes would be lost voting for Gore anyway.

The prospect of Bush winning is, to me, horrendous. Talk about Kali Yuga End Times.

BTW, I heard a speech today by Jeremy Rifkin about GE of foods, and he said that the contract between Monsanto and farmers is one where the farmers 'rent' the DNA of the seed for one season, but they don't own them. It was a fascinating speech. He called for a moratorium on genetically modified foods until all tests were done to verify the GMOs weren't harmful. Such a moratorium, he admitted, would most likely be a long one, but once you let the horses out of the barn, there's no chance of ever getting them back in (my metaphorical paraphrasing, of course).

He said that if genes are allowed to be patented, then the wars of the 21st century would be gene wars.

M

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 04:54:06 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: To P'Man and Katie: Nader v. Gore (ot)
Message:
Joe,
Very thoughtful post. I agree and feel the same about everything you said. I was under the assumption that if Gore was already winning in California, that voting for him wouldn't have any effect other than bolstering his win. And that voting for Nader would send a message of support for Gore leaning more to the left.

If Gore indeed needs the votes to win, or in other words, if my vote will matter despite the fact he's going to win in California anyway, I'll vote for him. I'm just not clear on the Electoral College thing.

I remember I heard in school that there's never been a president who won in the Electoral College but lost the popular vote. And I forget what would happen if that really happened.

I agree that it's insane to think it doesn't matter if Bush wins, and that Gore would be the same. I think just having Gore's presence in the White House will make a difference; I really, truly dislike Bush. And all the policy differences you mentioned, and the probabilities of what would happen in Congress and the Supreme Court, make it obvious that it does make a difference who wins for President. I'm baffled that some people don't see that.

My real dissapointment is that Gore is the best the Democratic Party can come up with, and that the party has moved so far to the right. It just isn't what it used to be, and it wasn't perfect by any means, before.

Bush's speech at the Republican Convention was absolutely disgusting. His pretense of being a caring guy is unmitigated bullshit. If he was at least honest about being a coldhearted bastard who supports big business, I'd have more respect for him.

And the slickness with which the Republican Convention was pulled off is almost frightening. I guess they took a page out of Clinton's book and did great PR.

So run it by me again, about if it matters to vote for Gore if he's already winning in California.

Thanks Joe,

P-man

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 17:25:58 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: Okay....
Message:
I agree, P'man, Gore is from the right wing of the Democratic party, but he is following Clinton's working strategy that the centrist wins elections. Unfortunatly, Gore isn't even half the skilled pollitician Clinton is. I thought Clinton's speech on Monday night of the convention was one of the very best speeches I've ever heard a politician give. You gotta hand it to him -- he is really good.

But I disagree with VP about Gore's speech. I thought Gore gave a masterful speech, being very specific on what he would do, all things that surely rate very high among focus groups. According to the polls, I guess the public agrees. Gore usually sounds like he is a teacher or college professor explaining complicated things to children. But he wasn't that way at the convention.

Okay, the electoral college. Actually, I think back in the late 19th century, there was a presidential election, Grover Cleveland or somebody, in which the winner of the electoral college actually lost in the popular vote. It is possible.

If I remember right, in the electoral college it's winner take all by state. So, if a presidential candidate wins a state by even one vote, that candidate gets all the electoral votes of that state. So, if Gore is WAY ahead in California, it is probably safe to vote for Nader and it won't affect the outcome, but it it's close, it certainly could, because most people who vote for Nader would otherwise vote for Gore.

In 1996, Clinton was so far ahead over Dole in California (actually Dole was toast before Labor Day) that I felt fine about voting for Nader, which I did.

I have a friend who said she is going to wait until 6:30 PM Pacific Coast Time, to go to the polls, to see how the results on the East Coast and the Midwest are going. If it isn't close either way, she said she is going to vote for Nader instead of Gore.

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:42:39 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Okay....
Message:
I like your friend's plan of waiting till 6:30 to decide how to vote. I might do that.

As far as maharaji, I'd guess either he thinks 'this Knowledge is beyond politics' or that he's a republican. One thing's for sure, whatever's good for maharaji is how he'll behave.

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 18:51:14 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: Isn't the media...
Message:
supposed to wait til all the polls are close before they start giving out the numbers? I remember hearing that so many people didn't bother to vote because the numbers were so overwhelming for one candidate that people just gave up the ghost and didn't bother voting.

I think the only numbers the media give out til the polls close is how many people have voted in a particular area, but not the results of the votes.

Not positive, though.

Tx
M

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 19:39:14 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: I think the agreement is....
Message:
That the networks don't project a winner in a state until the polls IN THAT STATE close. But the second the polls close in a state the networks will declare a winner based on exit polls of slected precincts or else say 'TOO CLOSE TO CALL.'

By 6:30 PM on the West Coast, the polls are closed at least in all the states East of the Mississippi, and most of those states will be declared won by either Bush or Gore.

I remember in 1996, by the time I voted, Clinton had already been declared the winner, because he was projected to win more than 270 electoral votes.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 00:49:05 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I think the agreement is....
Message:
I also remember that the networks post the numbers coming even before the polls close in a particular area. So although a winner isn't declared you can see who's winning so far.
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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 15:22:10 (GMT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: To P'Man--a critique of the conventions
Message:
P-man said, 'Bush's speech at the Republican Convention was absolutely disgusting. His pretense of being a caring guy is unmitigated bullshit. If he was at least honest about being a coldhearted bastard who supports big business, I'd have more respect for him.

And the slickness with which the Republican Convention was pulled off is almost frightening. I guess they took a page out of Clinton's book and did great PR.'

I agree, P-man. The Republicans controlled every aspect of their convention. They knew what they wanted to accomplish, they went in and performed. Bush's speech (although a well disguised pack of half truths) was far more effective in terms of making him look like a 'leader' than Gore's was. His speech reminded me of Reagan all over again.

The thing that made me so sick was when Bush was talking about having compassion for the imprisoned criminals in our country, but he had no compassion for pregnant women who would die if they gave birth. Jesus! When are the Republicans going to get out of bed with the Christian coalition?

In contrast to the Republicans having their act together, the Democratic convention was 'all over the place' Everyone was allowed to speak, nothing was organized. Gore looked ridiculous shaking his head and arms around trying to appear more animated, less serious. His timing was bad, while Bush's was impeccable. The sad thing is, there are people in the country who will base their vote on those performances alone and not even study the issues. Bush is counting on that, I'm sure.

I'm with Joe, I am sad that Gore is the best the Democrats can come up with. What happened to his big environmental agenda? Bush is not an option for me because, aside from a few of the tax cuts, I disagree with him on everything.

Joe, until people like us are dissatified enough with our two presidential choices to go out on a limb to vote for an independant, we will continue to have only two lame choices. As long as people continue to vote for the lesser of the two evils out of fear or to 'make their vote count', nothing is going to change. I'm not voting for Bush OR Gore, but I haven't made up my mind who I WILL vote for yet, because I have to do more research.

P.S. Maharaji is a libertarian--no doubt about it--snicker!

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 22:40:12 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: post isn't there
Message:
Hi Joe,
Your post didn't take. There's no text there.
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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:25:43 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: give it a couple of hours, it always comes back(nt
Message:
a
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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 20:58:17 (GMT)
From: Gabriel Golden
Email: ggolden@planetarymotion.net
To: Everyone
Subject: Time to ruffle some feathers
Message:
Many of us came from homes and backgrounds in which, simply put, we didn't get enough love. Along comes M, who tells us he loves us truly, madly, and deeply, and we can experience that whenever we want.

Eventually, we find out it's not true.

The temptation is strong to shame and blame M, to point out all his human weaknesses (kind of like shooting fish in a barrel, but I digress). At some point, however, it becomes important to ask a painful question, even more painful than realizing the sobering truth about M:

'What was my role in this?'

I read a lot of stuff here and on other sites about how M 'made me' do this or that. Horsepuck. Though the choices seemed obvious, and the coercion very, very strong, absolutely everything we did was still exactly that, a *choice* that WE made.

I don't mean to suggest New-Agey, 12-steppy platitudes like 'let it go,' 'forgive,' etc, since personally I don't think M is worthy of any ex-premie's forgiveness. What I am suggesting, though, is that the process of becoming whole again won't complete unless and until we have the courage to recognize that coercion is not totalitarianism; we had choices, we made choices.

I firmly belive that many of us entered adulthood with emotionally immature minds, and that perhaps a betrayal (both by M and by ourselves) of this magnitude was necessary to help us grow up.

GG

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 00:00:24 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gabriel Golden
Subject: GG, the analyst
Message:
What makes you such an expert on the healing process? Remember, GG, being a premie included not feeling good enough to truly be one. We blamed ourselves for our lack of progress in spiritual growth, and M encouraged this self-blame. He reminded us, constantly, how perfect he was, and that if we weren't achieving our goals, the fault was solely our own.

I think it's time people took the blame off themselves, which we consistently did as premies, and realize that we were scammed by a fraud who claimed to be something he isn't, who claimed to have power he never posessed, and who made promises he couldn't keep. Sure, we went willingly into the cult, but that doesn't mean our motives weren't pure in doing so. We're to blame for nothing, except for being duped.

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 10:22:11 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Gabriel Golden
Subject: Time to ruffle some feathers
Message:
This argument is somewhat true and somewhat specious. It is a bit Ayn Rand stuff - we all choose everything that is presented to us etc.

I think there is a continuum of choice. Or better yet a grid of choice. Or choice has many colours and flavours.

For intance - a child has a choice to sumbmit to violence from its family members. True - but the choice is somewhat limited in scope - if they don't they may die, be permanently traumitised or be disabled. Iraquis have a choice about accepting Saddam and his antics - the alternative is a very very difficult life as a rebel and perhaps a dead rebel. A teenager in the Apalachians in the US has a choice about whether or not to have babies - (average age of first mothers is 14 in some areas).

A person has a choice when they take their first alcoholic drink - when do they lose the choice and become alcoholics - and some people have a belief that alcoholism is a choice. Much like being a premie is a choice.

I think this idea about choice is in reality a values argument (as are many of the other arguments on this list). The value is something like - I think - 'I am an independent free spirit and anything I have I have because I choose it, even my pain'. (And I have some sympathy for this argument and Rational Emotive Therapy is a great counter to dodgy beliefs)

I mean, for those of you that have had cancer (my partner lost a breast due to cancer) will probably have had the experience of well intentioned people telling you that you must have chosen the cancer, or that you did something to attract cancer - i.e. - nothing comes to a person but what they choose. I think this idea qualifies as a value or principle or axiom and hence is either believed or not. It is enormously insulting when it happens and it happens often when people are chronically ill.

I think I believe, especially after working for a while with adults in education settings, that most people have bugger all choice in their lives - even down to the level of how they move and speak. I mean I can say they do have a choice - but every time they look at the world they come to the same conclusions they came to yesterday - and hence 'choose' exactly what they choose yesterday. The arena of real open choice is extremely narrow. I think and other premies had lots of little choices that added up to a rather large and nasty one.

Cheers

Peter

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 02:14:10 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Gabriel Golden
Subject: Time to ruffle some feathers - ho hum
Message:
Most people here left Maharaji way back in the early eighties. I know I did.

If a person is a crook and a con man, what do you do? Just get into your own thing and let him con other people or do you put a little of your time aside to warn people against the trickster?

Also, there is a need for justice in this world. There is a pressing need for confidence tricksters to be exposed and the internet is a good place for that.

Finally, there is a need to help each other in overcoming a common problem. Some people have overcome the problem but others are still stuck. Therefore, it is common decency to help those people who you know you can help.

No, you didn't ruffle my feathers, Mr Golden but you did illustrate to me how you have turned a positive thing like this forum into an apparently negative thing by your negative outlook.

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:42:28 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Gabriel Golden
Subject: Couldn't agree more
Message:
But you leave out some other crucial details.

During the heyday numbers wise, as far as I can tell, and sorry to bore everyone again with this one, but hippies, hippies, hippies, as far as the eye can see, and of those hippies a high percentage had taken lots of aceeeed,
and we all know how sloppy our thinking was, all proto new agers ready to wing to the far end of the universe with our wonderful 'spiritual' attitudes.
I don't know about elsewhere, but no wonder the punk backlash happened in the uk.
Never trust a hippy etc.

The reasoning behind your post is one of the reasons I keep bringing up our naivete and ignorance about 'spirit' experiences, our complete unawareness that just because you experience a sense of timelessness, space distortion, and cosmic love does not mean you've experienced timelessness and 'the cosmic love', states that are 'out there', but in the brain. And the brain is NATURALLY a junkie state that when activated by bio-feedback produces all manner of weird and wonderful mood altering states, because opiates, mescalin, ecstacy, cannabinoids, are a natural part of our bodies. That's why when taken externally these drugs affect us and hit the receptor sites in our brains. But did we know fucking anything about this shit, did we fuck.

Naive or what! And fucking dangerous, NEVER TRUST A HIPPY, OR A NEW AGER.
Nor did we know fuck all about spirituasl states, but hey why should that make any difference.
Scary shit or what.

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:29:33 (GMT)
From: Horsepuck.
Email: None
To: Gabriel Golden
Subject: Time to ruffle: Don't go there!
Message:
Simply don't. What you are discussing here was brought up many times before.

The healing will always come from the cult member deprogramming him/herself, obviously, I agree.

I don't agree that for the premies of the 70's would have being easy to escape his psychological trap. You cannot deny that the sensationalism Maharaji sorrounded himself with was what dragged us into it. Without that display and his false claims, speaking for me, I would have never received Knowledge. When I received Knowledge I was told not to live room for doubts in my mind, and NOT to think!!

He had time to change his story, to get honest with his followers and the fact that he didn't, he made the cult even more seclusive and secret to control it better during the last years, that in itself shows that is all his fault. Changes always benefit him, never the people, did you noticed? His fault is based on his need for power and money.

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:51:03 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Horsepuck.
Subject: The problem was before, not after
Message:
we got involved.

Loads of my mates who were proto anarchists, and there was plenty of that around then, thought I was absolutely nuts to even spend a moment around gurus, even argued with premies along the same lines myself, but oh I wanted those sweet acid bliss states without drugs so...... blah de blah.

NOBODY forced us to go, nobody forced us to listen, Irene Hall didn't hold a gun to my head.

Afterwards, well we were fodder and he minced us and deserves every bit, but we also need to acknowledge our compliance in the delusion.

And the proof is now, youngsters have learnt, and do you see them queing up in droves to worship the superior power in person, do you fuck.

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 23:19:48 (GMT)
From: O dark one (bill)
Email: None
To: Gabriel Golden
Subject: Dawkins accidental creation didnt give me feathers
Message:
Well, I for one can face the gruesome truth that there was no other way I could have lived and grown up without the insane rawat family doing thier Breath Vampire business on me.

Dang that felt good! Acceptance of the master's effect.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 03:59:01 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: O dark one (bill), all
Subject: who the hell knows?
Message:
Who the hell knows where any of us would be if it weren't for our involvement with M?? *Did* we need his vampire breath in order to grow up? I think life would have kicked our asses no matter what, life has a way of doing that.

Yeah, it is important to understand why we did what we did.

But, hammie has a good point about hippies hippies hippies and drugs drugs drugs and within my social group anyway, it was NORMAL to have a guru. A lot of it was the times.

Understanding ourselves doesn't mean blaming ourselves. We all probably do enough of that already, in obsessive quantities. Am I right, folks?

So I will take my Elavil (serotin enhancing, and sedating) and go to sleep now. I'll figure it all out tomorrow. HA HA

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 17:03:42 (GMT)
From: Prince Charles fan Club
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dawkins sucks
Message:
Dawkins sucks
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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 00:33:45 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Prince Charles fan Club
Subject: As persuasive as the prince... well done! nt
Message:
sdf
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:19:32 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: As persuasive as the prince... well done! nt
Message:
Nigel, I wanted to respond to your post that got lost on the inactive so I'll do it here.
You said>>>Doesn't it occur to you that maybe one of the two knows what he is talking about and the other does not?
Me>>>Hmmm,you know this could be viewed by a lesser man as more of the same kind of snobishness a la Dawkins……..
Did it ever occur to you that Dawkins' view of the world is limited to just that -Dawkins view of the world?Don't get me wrong I personally think he has some good insights that should be seriously considered.But the validation both of you seem to rely upon to support your personal belief systems is confined to what you can see with your eyes.Restricting your reality to just that helps to a point in that it eliminates a number of factors that confuse reality such as: magical thinking,subjective experience,anacdotal evidence,etc.,but you are making an assumption in doing so;one by the way that you haeven't proven scientifically: That if you can't see it then there's nothing going on.Big,big assumption Nigel.If there were to be something beyond the physical that could be understood using 'other organs',you of course would be the last to know.But take heart Nigel, if you surround yourself with people who agree with you you'll be in the clear.

You said>>>Scientists do not claim a special insight.
Me>>>Of course they do,what are you talking about.Their scientific methodologies give them their insight.It can be considered 'special' for the simple reason it is not fully understood by lay people.

You said>>>They merely offer a method that works for separating truth from bullshit.
Me>>>Yes that is a valid point,in many cases.As I said it eliminates magical thinking,subjective experience,anacdotal evidence,etc.But is anacdotal evidence always bullshit?Is subjective experience always bullshit?To draw such a line in cement without staying open to other possibilities is too restrictive,in other words closed-minded.And in my opinion a closed-minded scientist is an oxymoron.

You said>>>A method that is available to anyone who cares to understand it.
Me>>>Nigel you cannot draw this conclusion based on the fact that you can understand it;assuming you can.Some people CANNOT understand the full bredth and depth of it no matter how much they try.We all think differently.

You said>>>You don't need to understand quantum physics to follow a sound argument, but it often helps to ditch you superstitious belief systems.
Me>>>I trust in saying this it is not reflective of you making another assumption that I have superstitious belief system…..just checking.

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 18:36:48 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Prince Charles fan Club
Subject: I should hope so,
Message:
doesn't everyone with a decent sex life.

Personally I can't stretch that far, but then you were talking about him not me.

The sad thing is I've got a lot of time for him, it's just when he gets into the noodle side of his brain I begin to worry.

Take architecture, he hates all modern architecture, but I went down to the tate modern today, what a wicked venue, and packed to the rafters. Maybe as long as he's picking up bucketloads of other peoples money he can afford to be a bit isolated.

Are you also suggesting Charles doesn't suck, if it's true maybe that's why Diana moved on.

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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 11:11:03 (GMT)
From: PCFC
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Fuzzy Logic
Message:
I really think that this guy Dawkins has some loose wires somewhere ....

First he does not seem to realise that scienntific analysis and trials on drugs, medicines as well as gm foods...takes a looooong time to come up with any definitive conclusions...and him going on about gm foods safe etc...no one knows...

1.You all know about Corning Diagnostics and their safe breast implants which woman took to like crazy 30 years ago...well this company is now bust because of legal actions by woman who's health has been ruined by these devices..

2. What about Irradiated food...that has been a controversey for over 40 years and we dont know the full answers yet...

In conclusion...never trust a biologist ...he is not a real scientist anyway...a fuzzy scientist...Physics is the mother of all sciences...if he spoke like a phyiscist, I would have some trust in him...

Prince Charles...well...that was not my point anyway

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Date: Tues, Aug 22, 2000 at 11:54:04 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: sb@elaine
Subject: friendship
Message:
hi to you both :o)
much love
buzz
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Date: Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 02:57:54 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: buzz
Subject: something you said...
Message:
about satpal ji's baiji's k review. Did this happen in oz? If so can you give more info? Not that I'm sure I ever want to see another technique ever again, but I'd like to check out or know there is something as good or better as the only stuff I hear about is a lot of visualisation crap.
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 10:46:09 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: Viualisations
Message:
I agree with you about visualisations. A few years ago when I'd left Goomrodgy for some years I tried that stuff. Having had experiences of the simple enrgy beyond thought I found those visualisations so naff.

However there are lots of good simple breath and sound techniques , loads and loads of them.

hal

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