Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Sep 01, 2000 at 13:23:18 (GMT)
From: Aug 19, 2000 To: Aug 29, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Bambi -:- Let's talk about Jim Heller while he's away. -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 18:57:48 (GMT)
__ ham -:- Thanx g, gerry, katie and jerry for the laffs -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 18:24:16 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- I understand that personal issues should not be .. -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:08:33 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- But what PRACTICAL agreements are gonna get made -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:23:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- To me it's simple. -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 12:33:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB e real -:- To me it's SIMPLER -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:47:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Apologies ham, it was Gerry who said that. (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 14:05:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Practical solutions Stonor, where are they? -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 13:30:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Have a nice weekend too ham, -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 13:46:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- That was a very weak response, stonor -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 17:39:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- More twisting Gerry. -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 17:58:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Love the bullie too, you new age SAINT -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 21:12:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ GERRY -:- RIDICULOUS MISUNDERSTANDING -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 18:16:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Can you stop?! -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 18:25:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- More evasion -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 18:40:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Alright Gerry. -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:01:16 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- I understand that personal issues should not be .. -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:36:03 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Wahhhh Wahhhh the big bully's got me momma mommmma -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:14:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- More bully tactics - sarcasm, projection ... -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:37:08 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Yeah if you insist, a quality geezer really -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 13:23:07 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- I'll second that -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 14:33:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- Yeah on vacation -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:18:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yeah on vacation -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 12:52:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Sorry Stonor but that's pathetic -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 13:43:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- And what have I been saying about bully tactics? -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 14:02:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ stonor -:- Shadow side? -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 14:36:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Ham, that was pretty good! -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 20:14:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- And Dawkins isn't much different from m in 'logic' -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 13:09:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Again way off the mark, yet again Stonor -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 14:06:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- According to you ham. (ot! ot! ot! ot! ot! ot! ) -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 14:25:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- According to you ham. (ot! ot! ot! ot! ot! ot! ) -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 14:58:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Good, we seem to have cut though some of the BS. -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 16:00:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Good, we seem to have cut though some of the BS. -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 20:17:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks hamzen. -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 20:40:18 (GMT)
__ Zelda -:- FA if what you say is true -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:09:30 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- FA if what you say is true -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 05:14:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- FA if what you say is true-PROTOCOL ISSUES -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 19:18:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Surely the answers to your problem are simple -:- Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 00:11:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Surely the answers to your problem are simple -:- Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 02:35:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- No they're not, they're damn complex! LOL!! -:- Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 02:08:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- No they're not, they're damn complex! LOL!! -:- Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 02:44:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Oh Zelda, you are so constructively creative! (nt) -:- Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 03:51:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Bravo, Zelda, this Forum is big enough ... -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 14:51:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Bravo, Zelda, this Forum is big enough ... -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 20:32:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Bravo cq! Great post! (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 16:04:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I disagree, Zelda -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 00:57:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- I disagree, Zelda -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 09:23:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- I disagree, Zelda -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 08:11:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I agree, Zelda -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 12:03:37 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Admin -:- FA if what you say is true -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:23:23 (GMT)
__ Bambi -:- By the way, don't try to tire me-out. -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:38:40 (GMT)
__ Bambi -:- Please feel free to kick me out at will -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:44:52 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Please feel free to kick me out at will -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:24:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- I agree re personal insults -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:43:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- And who told me to fuck off in big html? -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 07:49:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- In what context ? another example twisted 'truth' -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 14:22:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Maybe my humour is a bit warped but -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:43:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Thanks Stonor (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:59:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Lame excuse -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 14:50:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Not so -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:58:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- And yet another attack as a supposed response. -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:29:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- yer such a dork, stonor, get lost -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:47:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- SHEEEIT. And I only recently emailed Stonor ... -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 15:26:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Not too soft yourself, eh? -:- Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 00:08:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- So she's got a rag on for me, big deal -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 17:50:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- SAME HERE!! Anytime. -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 19:27:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hey, lay off of Stonor -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:04:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Don't tell me what to do, you bully. -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:18:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Don't tell me what to do, you bully. -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:44:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- But that's EXACTLY how he got each and every -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:57:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Ham, I don't think there IS a solution -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 19:21:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- On another tack completely Katie -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 21:32:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- This one, hamzen! (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 23:38:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Don't tell me what to do, you bully. -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:00:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I love easy questions! Right here Gerry! -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 17:53:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Thanks, but it was obviously a throw away line -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 18:50:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Obvious to you, perhaps -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:12:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Criticism does NOT constitue 'personal attack.' -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 20:08:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Haven't dictated, Gerry, only asked and commented. -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 20:44:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Easy way out, IMO. -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 21:24:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hi Gerry -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 19:30:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Whining -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:56:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Whining -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 19:43:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- It ain't whining Gerry, it's stating facts. (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 22:34:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I get tired of discussing people's intentions -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:42:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Oh come on, guys -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 14:58:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I'm not so sure, Katie -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:06:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- You calling me emotionally stiff? -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:06:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Oooooh! -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:37:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- The difference between a bully and a put-upon -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 15:41:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Yeah, I got it :) -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:14:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- 'I just found it amusing' -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 13:59:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- I know that g, and I know you knew, -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 18:48:46 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- if you really wanto to pursue this Bambi -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:06:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bambi -:- if you really wanto to pursue this Bambi -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:35:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- I'm the mental case you can't have MY styma -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:44:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ X -:- I'm the mental case you can't have MY styma -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 09:17:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- and how many names do you post under? -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 17:36:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ FA's who is this X -:- and how many names do you post under? -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:06:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- that should have read how names does -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:14:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Say that was the case, so what -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 17:20:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mare -:- Where have I heard that before? -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 12:30:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks Mare and Ham -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 17:39:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- is only a premie -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 21:31:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- 'X' is a creep -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 22:14:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I wrote to the FA -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 22:18:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mare -:- agree with Selene -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:19:46 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Sorry No -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:17:55 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Admin -:- Sorry No -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:41:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- I agree with you FA -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:22:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- I support the FA on that. (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:11:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bambi -:- Bambi strongly disagrees -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:57:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mare -:- Bambi strongly disagrees -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:05:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Bambi deer!- dont say FA is EV - loose credibility -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:15:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lurkex -:- I support the FA in this -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:20:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bambi -:- I support the FA in this -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:01:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bimba -:- Now, explain this please with respect due to logic -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:33:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I agree there is a problem with 'personal attacks' -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:31:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ IsIT? -:- Criticism is not personal attack NT -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 21:35:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- It's a fine line, and subtle too. -:- Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 03:58:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- You are also a participant of that -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:17:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- It's very difficult to let outrageous accusations -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:44:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Too wordy. No weight. (nt) zzzzzzzzzz -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 20:55:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I read it, SB, beause you asked me to. -:- Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 05:18:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Sorry, the above post it has text, read it. -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 21:19:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bambi -:- I have a suggestion on this -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:30:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ GOD -:- Get your own forum (NT) -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:18:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- GOD speaks and sounds like always -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:51:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- ps if this is Forum God from AG -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:53:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum God -:- There is but one Forum God -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:34:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- ps if this is Forum God from AG -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:11:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yeah I read the FA admonishment to you -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:28:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- yeah I read the FA admonishment to you -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 00:03:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- yeah I read the FA admonishment to you -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:44:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ just watching... -:- at a rough count.... -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:59:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bambi -:- Beware. Unanimity produces lampshades and soap -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:21:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ just watching -:- ex-premies aren't nazis -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:11:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Who ever said they were? Mr.j. w. anonymous -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:25:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ just watching -:- Bambi talked of lampshades and soap -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:37:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Bambi talked of lampshades and soap -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:46:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ just watching - last time -:- Bambi talked of lampshades and soap -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:54:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Ditto: Beware. Unanimity produces Hitlers and mobs -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:29:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- And some mask themselves as sheep. -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:20:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Bambi strongly disagrees -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:19:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bambi -:- No. Bambi ain't my real name -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:58:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You're a cool chick in my book -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:42:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- No. Bambi ain't my real name -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:59:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bambi -:- No. Bambi ain't my real name -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:23:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Hang on - I reckognise that voice -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:45:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ X -:- Hang on - I reckognise that voice -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 09:22:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- It isn't the Cat, Dave -:- Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 00:44:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Where is Godzilla when you need him? -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 04:46:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Skippy -:- No. Bambi ain't my real name -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:07:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I LOVE easy questions: Anything Goes? Here you go -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:28:21 (GMT)

King Munmut -:- The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 10:14:01 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- WOW I LOVE THIS THREAD ; THANKS TO ALL nt -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 21:53:21 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- A regal name -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:42:43 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- A regal name--indeedy -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:14:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- Queen Monmot-- yeah love it !! nt -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 21:39:50 (GMT)
__ Skippy -:- The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 10:59:49 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 03:36:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Skippy -:- Thanks -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 06:41:27 (GMT)
__ __ sam -:- The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 02:28:33 (GMT)
__ __ Lotus Eater -:- It took me 27 years too -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:25:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Skippy -:- It took me 27 years too -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 06:49:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Skip, if you can afford it... -:- Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 01:21:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- were you in Bris for the strong/weak arm analogy -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 21:20:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Beautiful post lotus eater -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 21:38:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Re teach me devotion -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 08:28:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- That Strange Phenomenon -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:21:54 (GMT)
__ __ Lurkex -:- Follow the thrill of freedom, Skippy -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 16:29:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Skippy -:- Follow the thrill of freedom, Skippy -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:02:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- meditation -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 23:21:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- Follow the thrill of freedom, Skippy -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 21:45:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sam -:- meditation -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 05:34:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Skippy -:- meditation -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 06:58:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ King Munmut -:- So where is Padarthanand now? -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 10:10:03 (GMT)
__ __ King Munmut -:- The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 12:31:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Skippy -:- The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance -:- Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 07:03:11 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 12:23:40 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance -:- Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 12:15:24 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 18:57:48 (GMT)
From: Bambi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Let's talk about Jim Heller while he's away.
Message:
[edited by forum admin]

Prefer you didn't, Bambi - at least not in those terms. Personal attacks with no relevance to Maharaji are not welcome - especially whole threads devoted to that purpose. (Nor are multi-alias posters, nor again off-topic threads not marked 'ot').

FA

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 18:24:16 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: Thanx g, gerry, katie and jerry for the laffs
Message:
Best laughs I've had here in months,
especially since not ONE practical suggestion has been mooted,

ahh well everyone back to mine for a party?
I'll even let some someone put on some jazz and sixties stuff before we really get rumbling,
ohh and free e's and hash all around, even know someone who can get great acid and ketamine for those who want to really blast, and for the sensitive types chillout room too.

But SERIOUSLY I've really wanted to put on a party for exes for ages so we could all really let rip, have to be britain I'm afraid, so brits how about someone who has a big house??
But ideally where are the millionaire exes like dettmers when you need them, who could fly in the odd american who's poor like that gorgeous robyn, oooohhhhh (thinking of you babes, keep smiling)

and just to put the shit's up ev, since that's why we are here after all, have a conference on sunday to do some SERIOUS plotting (just a 50/50 joke, still as shroomananda (insult to psilocybin) said about gm, 'he could be a stand up comedian he's so funny' (not as funny as you shroom, he's got to be an ex, no-one could be that much of a parody),

humour-the biggest by-pass for premies or what!!!!

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:08:33 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: I understand that personal issues should not be ..
Message:
I understand that personal issues should not be discussed here, and I have nothing but respect for the FAs I've dealt with here and fully realize as I have posted in other contexts, that they perform a vitually thankless task unpaid, in their own free time.

But I DID read that post, and the fact that such a brief and quite innocuous attempt to discuss an issue, bullying, of which Bambi has clearly been a victim, is immediately edited, while, as s/he mentions, countless personal attacks and verbal abuse at this forum go on for days and weeks, is questionable. Others might justifiably think under these circumstances that that post must have been pretty loaded with vindictive venom, which it was NOT in the least. I also don't feel that anyone can properly judge this bullying victim's understandable reaction to the FA without having read the deleted post. The bully being portrayed as a victim is also a standard bullying tactic.

IMO, instead of being recognized for what it was and responded to as such, a cry for help and support from a hurting victim, Bambi has been a victim of some kind of bullying once again, and I do not know on whose part, nor do I care. The point is that the bully pattern is well in place at FV for some reason that I still cannot understand, given the reason for this site's creation and existence.

Stonor

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:23:57 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: But what PRACTICAL agreements are gonna get made
Message:
Stonor we've been thru this here so many times, and here I show my age, it's getting like a monty python sketch, or one of gm's talks

Practical solutions, and not trying to shut you up etc etc

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 12:33:05 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: To me it's simple.
Message:
To me it's simple, but I've heard all the excuses for not doing anything, so I can only assume that in general, the pattern in the cult is being repeated here: domination and submission, denial and projection, and group mind. The only difference being that there's a new 'guru' called Dawkins and his devotees to create the premie/ex-premie split within the ex-premies.

And I can't find it right now, hamzen, but somewhere you suggest to Katie that I've led a 'sheltered life'. I had thought I'd posted quite a bit about my personal life here, and told you a bit more via email. Have you completely forgotten, or do you just pass any judgement on someone in a given context that you feel fits your 'argument', or did you just never bother to read what I've written?

BTW, your tone of arrogant superiority and 'hero'-groupiness still reeks of 'cult' mentality. It's a total turn-off for me. I find people who think, and think for themselves far more interesting.

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:47:25 (GMT)
From: SB e real
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: To me it's SIMPLER
Message:
I find people who think, and think for themselves far more interesting.

You are very boring then. LOL. Joking sister. I bet you find lard's talks interesting. You seem to believe you are TRUTH especialist and many of us don't see that. What is it that you are missing to see in you? A suggestion. One day you can stop the talking a bit and read your posts. Disect them. Have the courage to admit you don't know much and talking like that is foolish;the fact that you complain about others doing the same thing you do is very foolish. Your chihuahua remark was pretty racist. Mockery can be streched, but how much?

Your often polite replies, to me they are a logical tactic to continue being accepted by some, but you really don't mean what you say. You say it because it makes you feel good, IMO. I allow myself to say this to you simply because you are talking in many posts about me, and in one you accussed me of following you around and tell me, what is an open forum for, but to read? You say it because it sounded good. You put to many false explanations and mask them to fool the reader. Darling, you cannot fool me anymore. You may critice me and call me a troubled person like you did in Paradise, and the way you used it wasn't nice because I have simply problems like everyone else. Again, your lack of understanding toward some of us blind you, because you see, you ain't perfect yourself. I can see the dirty laundry from here. Just because you want to censure me doesn't mean that shit ain't shit. It's. When it comes from me and from YOU! Your need to look superior shows well from here. Sad. Is your lose.

Common, get down your horse, so I can see our eyes. You may pound all you like and intelectualize your observations but you have no place talking as if you know the emotions involved here, or about me, as a ex-devote a guruji and how angry I'm ,because I only know MY losses. But you think you look smart attacking and putting us down because we use bad language. Your intentions may be hidden for some, but not to me. Too many post to have being a misunderstanding. Fair is fair.

I have observed your eaggerness and pretentious way how you want to be portrayed as knowledgeble, and few some fell. You have good points but many don't make sense to an ex. Communication is funny you know, because unless we reader sees all the possible ways a person could have used some words, we may miss all the information given indirectly. You are not as smart as you think you are, put it that way. I wanted to say it, for all the condescending posts of yours, making fun of people. I just saw what you did to Ham. He nsawered your post and you brushed him off, with few sentences. That shows your arrogance. Wait when Jim comes back. That is going to be FUN!!! Yeah, I'm bad. No. I just say the truth. He will take care of you too. LOL. Fine. Be that way Stonor, dear friend of humanity, superior new age being. Enjoy yourself using others to feel this or that; they may begin doing the same to you. YOU openned a can of warms latly because your true colors are more visible now... about this character named, STONOR. Hmmm...I wonder who you really are.

You accussed ham of wanting to be superior when I see nothing pointing to that. Why did you say it? It gets you off the bad spot, IMO. You have problems answering what is being said. I hate to compare, but she is your friend; you and Elaine think alike. BTW, that is why you decided to attack me, right? You are a funny character in this forum. If I ever write a book, you'll be there. How important, isn't? Joking, of course.

You don't look yourself too good. Funny the stupid post you started. STONOR WANT TO MAKE THE EXES LOOK BAD! oH, HIDDEN INTENTIONS.... oR IS IT THAT We forget about blind spots? Humanness is great as is honesty, good to avoid self-deceit. What are you doing here? You have a hidden agenda, IMO, that doesn't belong here. Is not fair!! Selene was right!

You are wayyyyy up there. IMO.

Now I feel better. I had to say it.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 14:05:59 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Apologies ham, it was Gerry who said that. (nt)
Message:
Apologies ham, it was Gerry who said that. (nt)
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 13:30:59 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Practical solutions Stonor, where are they?
Message:
To me it's simple, but I've heard all the excuses for not doing anything, so I can only assume that in general, the pattern in the cult is being repeated here: domination and submission, denial and projection, and group mind. The only difference being that there's a new 'guru' called Dawkins and his devotees to create the premie/ex-premie split within the ex-premies.
But you haven't come up with a single PRACTICAL appliable solution yourself, and you've been the one pushing it, we've been through this loads of times here from different angles, cyber policing is difficult without group agreements and financing, now do you see why I said about this being like a medieval fair. Dawkins personally is not my cup of tea, so that's bollox from my angle, but if you mean a greater respect for logic and probabilities than I had in my lila wish fulfillment because I was too sensitive to this planet days, I agree, and have no problem with that. I also don't dispute that subtle experiences are possible, the question is the 'explanations', and new age explanations are riddled with flaws. I would by inclination be the archetypal new ager, but rather painfully had to admit my 'explanations' were pathetic, when seriously challenged, as Jim does here to others. I had nothing to stand on, and refused just to walk into the land of denial.
I would also add that my take on evolution is not dawkins' one, and if you had been here for the long and detailed arguments I'd had with jim over this ( see posts on maturana & varela early 99/late 98) you wouldn't be making these spurious comments.

And I can't find it right now, hamzen, but somewhere you suggest to Katie that I've led a 'sheltered life'. I had thought I'd posted quite a bit about my personal life here, and told you a bit more via email. Have you completely forgotten, or do you just pass any judgement on someone in a given context that you feel fits your 'argument', or did you just never bother to read what I've written?

That post I would like to see, because I don't believe it, and I certainly know you haven't led a sheltered life, such a comment would be complete bollox, are you sure I wasn't talking about someone else, you have made that mistake quite a few times recently, assuming people are talking about you when they aren't?.

BTW, your tone of arrogant superiority and 'hero'-groupiness still reeks of 'cult' mentality. It's a total turn-off for me. I find people who think, and think for themselves far more interesting.

Fine if you think that's where I'm coming from, but just because I've got a lot of time for jim doesn't mean we haven't also had our run ins on a good few occasions, hardly the act of a hero worshipper, assuming you're talking about jim.
The tone of arrogant superiority I display I couldn't agree with you more, you think I'm arrogant now, you should have seen me when I was a premie, but then I did have the 'perfect' teacher, but I would also add that the culture I hang around in is pretty confrontational and a breath of fresh air after years of premie speak, and you would find it pretty aggressive I think, and also any of my friends reading your post would be pissing themselves with laughter that you think I don't think for myself, ho hum, I'm alwassys accused of being too pedantically individualistic, since we're talking weaknesses.

As for you not liking me, fine, I wasn't trying to impress you, and we all make our own choices, cest la vie. It's a big world with a lot of people out there, wish you luck in your search for 'perfection' in anyone, personally having gone down that route and ending up in a lonely cul-de-sac decided to embrace my own and others shadow sides and rejoined the human race, and ever since have met some great people.

And this isn't cynical or bitchy, really do hope you find what you're looking for, but seriously doubt you ever will.

I also note that you've slung quite a few accusations and abuse at me recently, when I've stuck purely to discussions, does rather look like YOU need to do some personal reviews.

Have a nice weekend!

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 13:46:24 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Have a nice weekend too ham,
Message:
I'm sorry ham, but I can't bring myself to read much of what you write anymore, especially when I read more crap assumptions about my 'search for 'perfection' in anyone' - where did you get that from? And I'm glad that you're not into Dawkins - there's hope. Sorry if you haven't appreciated my way of telling it the way I see and feel it, but maybe one day you'll thank me! :-)

Have a nice weekend too, ham.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 17:39:45 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: That was a very weak response, stonor
Message:
Ham took the time to explain himself and did so admirably and that's all you can say?

I thought your first post to Ham was out in left field somewhere. Really funny your saying ham will thank you someday for your crapola ideas. And unless you can show me where I said you 'led a sheltered life' you got the wrong person.

So THAT'S what you got against me? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 17:58:19 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: More twisting Gerry.
Message:
I have something against bullies, not you, unless you fall into that category. And I also hope you realize that my complaint about your comment re: my having led a 'sheltered life' was because I had thought ham had said it, and knew that he knew better, as should you at this point, but who cares. More mindless diversion and twistings and wastes of time and space. No doubt I'll be chastised by someone for posting so much in defense of your inane insults.
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 21:12:14 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Love the bullie too, you new age SAINT
Message:
Common stonor, stop it!

STOP IT. Please. Don't bother people.

Just accept once in a while that you lost the argument.

You'll be ok if you do. It happens to many of us. The magic of being human. Joined the human race and use tolerance, the one you ask for yourself and your friends. We are 'busy' doing other things here, like being truthful, learning how to be...

Radical

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 18:16:01 (GMT)
From: GERRY
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: RIDICULOUS MISUNDERSTANDING
Message:
Look Stonor, I have nothing against you. I do take issue with your attempts to shoehorn people and force some sort of 'change' upon them, their personalities and styles of communication.

I thought much of the 'bully' stuff was being directed towards me. Hell if Jerry and Ham are bullies by your standards, then what am I? See this classification thing is messy and demeaning.

You complain about 'insults' yet you characterize my post as 'mindless.' You also called me 'neanderthal.' What's up with that, then if not insulting?

I don't buy into dawkins and macro evolution either, btw. And where did I say you led a sheltered life? I don't recall saying this. I'm not saying this isn't possible but when? In what context?

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 18:25:58 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: GERRY
Subject: Can you stop?!
Message:
Elaine called you Neanderthalish over at LaF, which SB brought here. Getting the picture of where these insults go in circles and serve no purpose?

I bite my tongue.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 18:40:34 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: More evasion
Message:
OK maybe you didn't call me a neandethal. You've certainly taken enough potshots though, haven't you?

And 'mindless' is a big insult if you ask me. Why can't you address the other issues I brought up?

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:01:16 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Alright Gerry.
Message:
I've never said anyone in particular is a bully. I have only identified bully traits and tactics. Another bully trait is to play the victim when confronted, and/or become more aggressive. What evasion Gerry? I haven't even bothered to comment on the Dork thing and who knows what else or what number of insults have been flung at me for whatever reason - I can't be bothered.

What I've found through my experience in adult ed classrooms, is that one bully unchecked leads others into the pattern. I don't know who that might be here, but this is a problem in almost any context. There is one 'bully' out of thirty in the general population, Gerry - that's on average at least one in every classroom, office, forum, club, etc.. Avoiding dealing with it collectively, in 'principle' alone, allows it not only to continue, but thrive. Why do you think that I said 'mindless'? You're right, that wasn't OK, but it gets tiresome dealing with false allegations here, not to mention the bullying - it becomes almost a reflex to fire one back sometimes, and I'm no saint ;-). But I do apologize.

Gerry, could you do me a favour and email me if you have anymore questions, complaints?

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:36:03 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I understand that personal issues should not be ..
Message:
Hi Stonor -
My feeling is that threads that are deliberately started to criticize or attack specific forum participants should be deleted, and the FA's appear to feel the same way. If this rule is followed, then posts like Bambi's are going to get deleted, no matter how relevant, if ONLY because of the title that s/he used ('Let's talk about Jim Heller...') One of Jim's threads along the same line was deleted earlier this week - fair is fair.

Stonor, I dislike the verbal abuse and intimidation as much as you do, but I don't think it's going to go away any time soon. I appreciate what you are trying to do, but I think the only solution would be to have some anti-flaming rules on this forum, which would (1) be an enforcement nightmare (no one I know has 24 hours-7 days a week to monitor the forum), and (2) lead to zillions of threads and (flaming) arguments about what is a flame and what isn't.

Also, I think you are going to burn yourself out trying to deal with this issue, and THAT concerns me.

Take care -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:14:50 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Wahhhh Wahhhh the big bully's got me momma mommmma
Message:
Stonor, you are seem to be very involved in keeping these personal disputes going. In fact you seem to be quite happy fanning the flames and throwing in your own sparks.

You're quite the hypocrite, aren't you.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:37:08 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: More bully tactics - sarcasm, projection ...
Message:
More bully tactics - sarcasm, projection, lack of concern for the victim, changing the topic .....
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 13:23:07 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: Yeah if you insist, a quality geezer really
Message:
who understands exactly what would happen to this medieval market place if there wasn't a resident guarding the properties, occasionally ignorant I'll agree, but tell me someone who wouldn't look an arsehole occasionally fighting the good fight as much as he does.

Top geezer in my book.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 14:33:32 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: I'll second that
Message:
Good idea, ham. If we're going to talk about Jim, let's put a plug in for him, why not? I find him rather refreshing, myself. Where did he go, btw? Is he on vacation? I notice the hyenas have come out of their hiding places in his absense to badmouth him.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:18:08 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Yeah on vacation
Message:
Personally I find all this rather amusing, but then I'm getting a strange sense of deja vu, so I guess I've been here too long, god the surrenders you have to make doing service, ahh well I guess if I keep going long enough the real appreciation will come.

And what will come out of all this, nothing because one persons pea soup is another persons favourite house record of all time.....
blah de blah

So how ya been Jerry, will e-mail again soon, work overload, stress, bullying by management finally took its toll, bit of a burn out, still one good things come out of it, apart from appreciation from people I supported over the years is that I've finally killed the hippy anti money and security number, I pray, I pray.....

Jim's gonna have such a laugh when he sees all this

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 12:52:45 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Yeah on vacation
Message:
I won't laugh. All toughened-up by Jim, are you? You let those people at work get you where they wanted you when you quit - that's one the goals of bullies when you challenge them. You took the last resort for your own survival, though, so at least you're still somewhat alive and kicking.

BTW, that kind of bullying was just a back drop for what I survived, but despite the necessity of redundancy in cyber-space, I get sick of wasting my time repeating myself, as I have had to do for years at work as part of an essential part of my job. At least my students have generally had the excuse that English is not their first language.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 13:43:26 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Sorry Stonor but that's pathetic
Message:
I was toughened up way before Jim, but then if you knew me better you'd know you're just talking out of your arse now, Jim's stance is one I'd reached, for exactly the same reasons, way long ago.
Shallow Stonor, and who's doing the abuse now?

You should have been at work in our team brainstorming discussions where our boss was in complete denial of the team problems, and seen the reactions of others to 'new age denial', all the good workers have now left, and that's another pointer as to why I've ended up where I have.
That new age denial has meant that the members of our org are even more abused by the system, and they can't just walk.
I've also come across exactly the same problems in green groups,
that's why Seattle happened because new agers are completely incapable of challenging the system, it's also why premies and other cult members have been abused for years.
Ho hum.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 14:02:28 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: And what have I been saying about bully tactics?
Message:
And what have I been saying about bully tactics? Why are we arguing? This stuff about how you've talked and talked about bullying at FV and nothing has worked is exactly the same shit you got a work, no? And budget constraints is comparable to FA constraints. The key is that independently-thinking individuals need to make the difference, but everyone seems to want some hand to come down from the sky with the 'perfect' solution so that they don't have to take responsibility for their own shortcomings. That will not happen.

BTW ham, I went through similar issues at work for 10 years, and it had nothing to do with the harrassment/stalking I endured for the last 5 - that was just the cherry on top.

Please define 'new age', and where I've 'abused' you.

I won't bother with the sarcastic 'ho hum'.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 14:36:22 (GMT)
From: stonor
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Shadow side?
Message:
And what have I been saying about bully tactics? Why are we arguing? This stuff about how you've talked and talked about bullying at FV and nothing has worked is exactly the same shit you got a work, no?

No it's not the same issues at work, because anyone can say what they want here, but when those of us (all the good workers, and some better than me) brought up the issues we were denied any input, whereas here EVERYONE can have their say, and financial futures are not at stake, refs etc.
And budget constraints is comparable to FA constraints. The key is that independently-thinking individuals need to make the difference, but everyone seems to want some hand to come down from the sky with the 'perfect' solution so that they don't have to take responsibility for their own shortcomings. That will not happen.
You're the one complaining about the situation here, but you still haven't come up with ONE workable and practical solution, and then you would need group agreements, when as with this problem, along with others that have occurred here, it's obvious that it's a pretty even split, and all the while these discussions go on, gm (the little one that is) is pissing himself with laughter.

Please define 'new age', and where I've 'abused' you.
You've made countless assumptions about me today that are way off the mark, so far off you're almost into premiesh territory.
You've made countless accusations that I'm a Jim hero worshipper and a Dawkins worshipper, and if it's really worth the bother I'll go back through your posts and dig out the other stuff, but for what purpose, and it doesn't bother me in the least, just trying to show a mirror? Again you brought up this whole issue, again any chance of getting back to what this site is for?

New age definition= always be nice, always be polite, never use so called foul language, that there is a spiritual realm where truth exists (indisputable), that the problems of this world are all because of a lack of awareness of this spiritual realm, spirit experiences are real and seperate from brain functions, focus on higher chakras and never the lower, (usually always supported by middle class white people only) anything that happens to you is karma based, need I go on?
Having been in a cult that couldn't have survived without this culture, this territory feels like abuse to me, I just think of the suicides along the lines of 'I am not worthy' etc.
But mostly what I hate about this culture of new ageism is it's inherent racism and lack of inclusiveness of working class culture, it's so fucking middle class and based upon denial of the shadow side.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 20:14:43 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: stonor
Subject: Ham, that was pretty good!
Message:
I hear you and agree. She, or whoever this person stonor is is trying to play with your head, to look good. :0 Her post tactic, now that I see it. Is either vegetables or empty criticism lately. She/he doesn't seem too interested in addressing the real issues lately and to see that, in OUR forum simply suck!!

Live and let live. Leave.Is this outsider telling us how to be?

The things that one 'has' to read to know what the people are saying...well, then you find good posts like yours. thanks.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 13:09:14 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ham and Dawkins groupies
Subject: And Dawkins isn't much different from m in 'logic'
Message:
In his letter to Prince Charles, Dawkins wrote:

Incidentally, one worrying aspect of the hysterical opposition to the possible risks from GM crops is that it diverts attention from definite dangers which are already well understood but largely ignored. The evolution of antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria is something that a Darwinian might have foreseen from the day antibiotics were discovered. Unfortunately the warning voices have been rather quiet, and now they are drowned by the baying cacophony: 'GM GM GM GM GM GM!'

Now I can understand where some of you got your bully tactics re-inforced. Unlike some of you who have spent a large chunk of your lives in a cult, ham, I've been reading about this for years. It has been the same kind of people who have been warning the scientific business world about the dangers of pesticides, anti-biotics and now, GM foods. I could go on for quite a while, but it's not worth it with you, it seems. I'm sure that Prince Charles was, like myself, saddened that such a well educated man could be arrogant about such weak thinking in such a serious context.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 14:06:27 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Again way off the mark, yet again Stonor
Message:
Again you are doing the same thing making wild assumptions about me and my life, I've been aware of these issues since 1970, one of the reasons I joined the cult believe it or not, & was in a number of green groups for over 5 years at the local level, and supported Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace for over ten years,
now only interested in stuff like green anarchism and Reclaim the Streets. I wasn't just reading about it.

Who's displaying their arrogance now?

The complaints about gm are coming mainly from the press and the middle classes (over here at least, no green group would ever get tabloid press support, as I'm sure you know from all your 'reading'. The middle classes didn't moan and still don't, about the other stuff, can't have THEIR precious lifestyles reduced and neither do they look at each gm food as individual cases since you can't just 'gm gm' on mass.
You also don't address the research that is now completely stopped for funding reasons, in countries where subsistence farming or mono-culture is the norm (local history not big business induced) and issues such as blindness because of vit a deficiencies because of that monoculture.

You also don't address the fact that new-agers are just as bullyish in their denial of rationality in favour of some unverifiable intuition and the heart.

Charles could easily argue that there isn't enough rationality about the issues, that's the problem, big business and the profit motive, not some dreamy spiritual idealism that hasn't got a hope in hell of succeeding, but then new agers would rather hold onto their purity than come up with practical solutions.

ho hum

Oh and by the way, any chance of getting back to what this site is here for?

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 14:25:29 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: According to you ham. (ot! ot! ot! ot! ot! ot! )
Message:
I don't rely on one source, and certainly not the mainstream sources. Glad to hear you've been involved in that work with environmental issues and know how old the movement is, although I believe you've already told me that, but I'm not sure of its relevance here. And when did I say that I just 'read' about it? The issues are extremely complex, as is any definition of so-called 'new-agers' - a term that you are still using as if it means something. Perhaps you'll also realize that exceptions to the rule do not make a case. I've lived in a third world country, and the multi-national corporations like Monsanto, Bayer, etc. don't give a damn about whose backs they make their money off of or how. Just ask some of the Canadian potato and canola growers.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 14:58:22 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: According to you ham. (ot! ot! ot! ot! ot! ot! )
Message:
I don't rely on one source, and certainly not the mainstream sources. Glad to hear you've been involved in that work with environmental issues and know how old the movement is, although I believe you've already told me that, but I'm not sure of its relevance here
And when did I say that I just 'read' about it?.

Its relevance is that YOU said in your post that unlike those of us who have been in a cult you had been reading about this for years, assumption being that I was new to this territory, you also only said about reading about it, nothing practical mentioned at all.

The issues are extremely complex,exactly Dawkins' point as is any definition of so-called 'new-agers' - a term that you are still using as if it means something. Perhaps you'll also realize that exceptions to the rule do not make a case. I've lived in a third world country, and the multi-national corporations like Monsanto, Bayer, etc. don't give a damn about whose backs they make their money off of or how. Just ask some of the Canadian potato and canola growers.
I've got absolutely no illusions about big business, why do you think I've never driven, or owned a car, except for partners, why do think I've never used my undoubted skills to sell out, and are still renting bedsits, why do you think almost everything I've owned has been recycled, sorry Stonor I've got NO illusions about big business, but having spent an enormous time around alternative society know the amount of head wanking that goes on there. Even in rave culture it's not the alternative types that get anything done, it's the more mainstream bods, just fed up with talk, talk, talk, about practical things instead of mixing it.
And why am I having to justify myself to you when YOU are making all the assumptions, could easily be argued that YOU are using bully tactics!
You wanna have a test about who knows the most about big business? See again you don't realize that while you were working thru the 70's/80's (true assumption?), me arrogant premie that I was was reading reading reading, some years almost 24/7, unusual for a premie I'll agree, but that was the reality.

So again any chance of getting back to discussions about the purpose of this site, after all this isn't just a chat room, it DOES have a purpose you know, and that's why sb wondered if you were a premie, since distraction tactics are their primary aim here.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 16:00:31 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Good, we seem to have cut though some of the BS.
Message:
Yes, I know you are not into big business, but GM is big business, and just like the medical industry and anti-biotics, they do seem to be too concerned about potential risks. As for Dawkins pointing out complexities, I believe 'Charles' was pointing out complexities as well.

Wrt your 'assumption' about me working through the 70' and 80's, you might remember that I've been primarily 'just' a teacher teacher who teaches immigrants ESL, and have devoted most of my free time during the late 80's and 90's and still today, trying to respond to their needs, not only in the classroom, but in most of my free time as well. I would never be able to work in big business and have never wanted to contribute to it. Remember why I haven't been to a publisher with my literacy approach yet?

So you buy second-hand too! I can barely stand going into a store, especially after living in Peru. I feel like I've walked into 'The Dawn of the Dead'. If you haven't seen it, it's set primarily in a shopping mall. The dead have returned to walk the earth, and all these zombies are wandering through the mall, like so many shoppers these days.

But that is not is what is at issue here at FV.

What I have found, and what is confirmed in the studies on 'bullies', is that there is approximately one key bully out of thirty in a given population, and they tend to at very least poison the atmosphere for the others, encouraging division, pushing people into reacting without thinking etc. So, my first practical solution, as I implied above, is that people think for themselves, and if they don't like it, they shouldn't encourage it by making excuses for it, and patting key perpetrators of bullying tactics by patting them on the back and, as G said, feeling like one of the 'good old boys'. These are some of the factors which I believe have led to our current communication difficulties, ham.

A second practical solution is that clear limits and off-limits be posted and enforced. Perhaps the 'Bully Online' site could direct us to studies on the topic of bullying in 'forums'. Some one in communication studies or some related area must have done some research on this by now.

Again we get to the FA's limits, both in terms of workload and decision making. The guidelines should help with both, although the start-up would be trying, so there could perhaps be a larger team of FAs, as there are now greater numbers posting. The decision making could be helped by some type of concensus though conscientious participators emailing the FAs. There could be a 3-day block for first offence, 7-days for second, etc. Again, it's consistency which is needed until people get the idea.

Tactics for dealing with a certain type of premie poster could also be spelled out to all FV posters, both describing the type of post, and suggesting what responses have been most effective in dealing with them.

My practical ideas might not seem so practical to you, but I do hope that you will consider them, and perhaps add some of your own. I've never found it very practical to 'give up'.

BTW, sb doesn't think I'm a premie because of any 'distractionary tactics' on my part, which IMO I am not guilty of in the least, but rather because I don't like to see ANYone bullied, not even premies, and because I was talking with Elaine over at Life's aFoot. Unfortunately, her disruptive tactics seem to have broken our conversation, which I'm not too happy about on any level.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 20:17:05 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Good, we seem to have cut though some of the BS.
Message:
Yes, I know you are not into big business, but GM is big business, Actually you are wrong, there was a lot of research in the third world going on into the possibilities of gm foods that was nothing to do with big business. Government sponsored and independent research. That research across the world has now been stopped because of the hoo-ha, not commercial sales but research independent of big business, stopped by media and middle class bullying.
But hey who cares about foreigners going blind or subsistence farmers dying.
Instead of dealing with individual cases scare tactics across the board have been used, and you go on about bullying on F5

What I have found, and what is confirmed in the studies on 'bullies', is that there is approximately one key bully out of thirty in a given population, and they tend to at very least poison the atmosphere for the others, encouraging division, pushing people into reacting without thinking etc. So, my first practical solution, as I implied above, is that people think for themselves, and if they don't like it, they shouldn't encourage it by making excuses for it, and patting key perpetrators of bullying tactics by patting them on the back and, as G said, feeling like one of the 'good old boys'. These are some of the factors which I believe have led to our current communication difficulties, ham.
Assertiveness training, couldn’t agree more, but also since this seems to be about Jim, take Zelda’s post about astrology, is it unfair of him to expect her to justify her position. To me if you make any statement it should be open to being challenged in a public forum, if someone is then not prepared to justify statements in a rational way then they should retract the statement in my eyes, not complain about being bullied.
Also, and this never gets acknowledged and for the same reasons, Jim feels abused by new age ideas the same as I do, for reasons stated elsewhere.
So who is going to make the decision about what statements are abusive, and by what criteria?
To give an example, the following are some of the quotes you have thrown at me today:

BTW, your tone of arrogant superiority and 'hero'-groupiness still reeks of 'cult' mentality. It's a total turn-off for me. I find people who think, and think for themselves far more interesting.

The only difference being that there's a new 'guru' called Dawkins and his devotees to create the premie/ex-premie split within the ex-premies.

I'm sorry ham, but I can't bring myself to read much of what you write anymore, especially when I read more crap assumptions about my 'search for 'perfection' in anyone' - where did you get that from? And I'm glad that you're not into Dawkins - there's hope. Sorry if you haven't appreciated my way of telling it the way I see and feel it, but maybe one day you'll thank me! :-)

I won't laugh. All toughened-up by Jim, are you?

Now I can understand where some of you got your bully tactics re-inforced. Unlike some of you who have spent a large chunk of your lives in a cult, ham, I've been reading about this for years.

Are you happy with those comments, don’t you think there is an abusive and sarcastic tone to them?
Yet I haven’t reacted apart from ho-hum, which YOU comment on, fair play here stonor?

A second practical solution is that clear limits and off-limits be posted and enforced. Perhaps the 'Bully Online' site could direct us to studies on the topic of bullying in 'forums'. Some one in communication studies or some related area must have done some research on this by now.
Again we get to the FA's limits, both in terms of workload and decision making. The guidelines should help with both, although the start-up would be trying, so there could perhaps be a larger team of FAs, as there are now greater numbers posting. The decision making could be helped by some type of concensus though conscientious participators emailing the FAs. There could be a 3-day block for first offence, 7-days for second, etc. Again, it's consistency which is needed until people get the idea.

It might be a good idea, IF you could get agreements about the people concerned, and agreements about the rules, but practically I can’t see that happening, and if a number of people leave who are exes because of that how would you feel?
Personally I would be one of the first to go, effective assertiveness training is the answer in my opinion.

BTW, sb doesn't think I'm a premie because of any 'distractionary tactics' on my part, which IMO I am not guilty of in the least, but rather because I don't like to see ANYone bullied, not even premies, and because I was talking with Elaine over at Life's aFoot. Unfortunately, her disruptive tactics seem to have broken our conversation, which I'm not too happy about on any level.

Sorry but I disagree with you on this one too, and there is nothing to stop you and Elaine e-mailing is there, a person that not long ago you classed as beyond the pale, and out of order. The reason I mention this is to point out the dangers of judging.

But thanks for at last talking to me rather than at me, which in itself was beginning to feel abusive, and for at last coming up with some practical suggestions.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 20:40:18 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Thanks hamzen.
Message:
I really appreciate your responding to my post. If you hadn't spoken to me again, I would have understood. You've made some very interesting points.

No, I'm not proud of that section and a few other things I've posted to you today, but I was trying to make a point of some sort. I will go into it more later.

I'm really trying to get something done in my kitchen today, believe it or not! ;-) High-speed unlimited really helps me to pop in and out quickly etc - almost too easily and quickly! But I would like to give this post of yours a lot more thought. Could you give me a bit more time?

The conversation with Elaine wasn't here, ham. And she refused to communicate with me via email, which you can read if you go over to Life's aFoot.

Talk to you soon,

Stonor

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:09:30 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: FA if what you say is true
Message:
'Personal attacks with no relevance to Maharaji are not welcome'

what can be done about Jims jumping in on threads to bully and make personal remarks. He keeps doing it and ALWAYS makes sure that he covers himself by refering the content back to Mahraji.

Can you isolate his bullying in threads that he deems his territory??

And really there is no way to talk about the problem unless he is not here- because he will not allow free discussion about his rampages - on threads that he does not agree with.
The best he does is to act complacent and then slams later.

For instance the recent atheist thread- he would not let the conversation take place.

ie - believe in god and want to talk about it in reference to the cult?? Not possible if JIm is around

Want to talk about astrology cross refernced with maraji?? Nope cant do that either cause Jim doesnt like astrology.
So the thread is diverted into a attack-defense of astrology.

Can you regulate the manner or tone that he uses??

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 05:14:47 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: FA if what you say is true
Message:
Zelda,

Do you remember when you called me a 'reptile' because of expressing my opinion on astrology? I do. Do you know what I did when I read that? I just brushed it off. I was even amused by it. I knew I was right about astrology, and you're calling me a reptile was just a weak attempt at getting back at me for it. I felt secure in my position, so took no offense. The way I see it is, if you felt secure in your position, you wouldn't be so offended, either.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 19:18:54 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: FA if what you say is true-PROTOCOL ISSUES
Message:
Hi Jerry
thanks for the response.
The reptile comment esapes my memory- but it sounds like something I would say.

I hope I am not putting accross that being called names is the center of my complaint here.

....Nor critisizing astrology or atheism, belief in god or whatever.

I would like to see clear discussion. What hampers clear discussion is bully interference.
We always have variety on threads, like when a post brings in a defferent slant on a subject. That is ok if it allows the people that want to discuss freedom to do so.

What I am focusing on here is the fact that if 3 people wish to talk about a subject that to them relates to the cult, that is not popular with a few others- they are for the most part blocked from discussing it on the forum.

A worn out example is astrology. No doubt it is ok to argue the subject- but is there room for the astrologers to discuss Mahahas chart, how he is performing in relation to his 'mission' ect ect.??

To me it should be permissable among adults to ALLOW a conversation like that to take place.

IF a big booted-self-appointed-bouncer doesnt agree with astology, aforesaid bouncer can and will belittle the subject, make personal attacks and generally make a ruckus. MOst often this results in the subject of astrology bieng TURNED INTO a debate about the validity of astrology.

The validity is astrology is an OK subject, but it is tiresome too. Sometimes I just want to have a get down discussion with like minded astrologers about the gurus performance. And I Know repeat know that it is valid for many many premies and fence line ers to hear critism of the cult in these terms.

I too brush of insults- but using insults as a tactic to obliterate discussion lines is sick.

And this is what happens

It would work if for example- a few people could discuss cult astrology in one thread and also spar in defense/critisam of astrology in another thread.

Sorry about the astrology example- I am tired of it now.

The atheism one was another. It is simply juvenile to think that noone should believe in god.
Many premies think that leaving Mahahah is also abondoning their search for god. Exs who believe in god can help them make a transition from the cult into finding their way on their own.

These discussion are important for premeis and fence liners.

To have a forum to be able to discuss this is important. BUT for the most part, any discussion on this is grenaded - and I suspect is turning many a premie back to the lard.

In the end it seems to be accepted that bieng told to TAKE THE DISCUSSION TO ANOTHER FORUM is also accepted.

So I reflect- how did it come about that there is a party line at this forum that is for the most part accepted by the forum participants??????? IE that it is forum dogma to stomp all over the concept of god, astrology ect ect.- and that those of us that would like to discuss those things better do so elswhere???

It is my experiece that astrolgy, belief in god and (god help us) new agey stuff is part of the bridge from the cult.

It is a decorum and protocol issue, not a pholosophical or personal one.

Do you see what I mean?

cheers
Zelda

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Date: Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 00:11:49 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Surely the answers to your problem are simple
Message:
But why not just completely ignore a post you find offensive, or find your own version of fuck off, like telling Jim for instance, that you love him I find works a treat, especially if done repeatedly, certainly just because someone tells you to go elsewhere doesn't mean bugger all since no-one can force you go anywhere with a discussion if you don't want to.

Or if you're pissed with me re atheism and god angle, which I find obnoxious and abusive, just ignore me, but surely you also don't deny me the right to respond either.

Anybody has every right to post what they want, but defining what's out of order is impossible. Why not ask others if they find a post objectionable and ask the fa to delete under a mini group democracy thing.

Or you could just try bribing the fa's!!

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Date: Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 02:35:01 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Surely the answers to your problem are simple
Message:
i might just try that with Jim

maybe we should have threads devoted to feelling and intuition and others based on thinking and theory!

I am not pissed at you ham- as I did not find your manner difficult. I amnot pissed ajim either - it is just what he gets away with around here that confounds me. Namely ex premie dogma

Designated threads?
Dare I want to talk about how I FEEL god or something like that- with others who FEEL god -cna you imagine!!!!

There would be no manners here.

everybody should be like me - I dont say anything negative in the penis threads. I just let them talk away and dont say what I think about it because if they want to talk penis talk they can as far as I am concernd

everybody should be like me everybody should be like meeverybody should be like me

that felt good

isnt that what J** seems to say now that I think about it..
(dont quote me on that )

ha- how could I bribe the FA who has everything since they have regained themselves and left the holely socks.

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Date: Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 02:08:51 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: No they're not, they're damn complex! LOL!!
Message:
But I like all of your suggestions, except that bribery one - puts some at a disadvantage depending on location, sexual orientation and tastes, geographical location, posting style, socio-political-economical-'spiritual' factors ... ! ;-)

Love to you and Zelda!

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Date: Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 02:44:42 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: No they're not, they're damn complex! LOL!!
Message:
ya! I think that too!!!!
;=(

It would end up that someone like me would need to obey lots of regulations.
It is much more adult and considerate to allow a thread to 'be' and take debate to another.

For instance if a few of us were talkng about gods astrology chart or somesuch- then whoever could begin ANOTHER thread of sarcasm, belittling and jagged comments- and any one of us on the god thread could join in - then everybody gets to do what they want without interfering fragmentation.

zz

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Date: Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 03:51:14 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Oh Zelda, you are so constructively creative! (nt)
Message:
Talk to you very soon!
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 14:51:14 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Bravo, Zelda, this Forum is big enough ...
Message:

... to be a platform for ALL the issues around leaving the Maha, and that includes discussing 'new-age' beliefs too.

Jerry (below) likens the Forum to a living room where the majority rule, concluding that some topics of conversation are therefore off-limits. Uh-uh. Wrong analogy. But he'd be right if he said that EACH THREAD is like a living room where certain topics are less welcome than others.

But there's room for all kinds of threads here. Any denial of that fact would only serve to prove that an 'Ex'-mentality party-line does exist here. Let's not make THAT the norm.

A lot of premies would like to relate their allegiance to the Maha to more 'new-agey' ideals. But if 'new-age' is off the agenda because the more vociferous ones here disapprove, then I'd say that they (the 'bullies') are doing this place a disservice.

Even the likes of Jim were premies once. That he can't abide the stereotypical premie attitude says (IMO) a lot about how stuck he still is with the issue.

Be it pro- or anti- Maharaji, there's no doubt that, for whatever various reasons, this guy is STILL grabbing our attention.


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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 20:32:05 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Bravo, Zelda, this Forum is big enough ...
Message:
Ya! I think that! :::)

Like--- I never interfere with the penis threads...!

Also some of this may be colored by the fact that I act as a mediator for opposing parties such as PMS teenagers, adults with strong emotions ect ect ect.

In those settings , stytemic sarcasim/belittling another to gain an edge is definitly lookd upon as an illness.
And there are clear boundaries of rights to speak and hold opinion.

so manipulators and emotional bullys get sedated and locked in the tree house -just kidding

ZZZ

ps
the distrurbing twist in this is that where it counts-my point doesnt even get acknowledged-and I get invited to go elsewhere with astrology talk.
so the whole protocal issue is bypassed and made into a measly
philosopy debate.
That feels like supremecy dogma.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 16:04:36 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Bravo cq! Great post! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 00:57:15 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: I disagree, Zelda
Message:
Zelda,

The way I see it is we're all at the same gathering, all sitting in the same living room having a conversation. Let's say, hypothetically, that there's five of us, 3 pro astrology, and 2 that have a different understanding. One of the pro astrology crew mentions that M is a sagittarian and remarks how interesting it is that he seems to live up to his sign's MO. Now, what you're asking is that the 2 people present who think astrology is bunk not share it becasue you don't want to hear about it. I'm sorry, Zelda. If I want to put my 2 cents into the conversation, I'm going to. And I'm not going to be bullied, that's right, BULLIED, into keeping my mouth shut because YOU want the conversation to be limited to a strictly pro astrology view.

I sincerely doubt that anybody who has lost faith in God in the wake of their leaving Maharaji is going to keep somebody in the cult who would otherwise leave. There's a lot more to it than that. We left Maharaji, not because we had a beef with God, but because we lost faith in Maharaji. If we later lose faith in God, as well, that's a personal odyssey that isn't a guarantee to happen to all ex-premies. Plenty of exes continue to believe in God, yourself included. Interestingly, it was an atheist, primarilly, and not a believer, who convinced me that being a premie was foolishness, and helped my exit from the cult.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 09:23:46 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I disagree, Zelda
Message:
Hey there I was a settled into an evening of Lawrence Welk and I said to myself HEY! self- thats not what you were saying!

Jerry- this is what you said to me:
Now, what you're asking is that the 2 people present who think astrology is bunk not share it becasue you don't want to hear about it

For the 10 0000 time that is not what I mean. I think it is GOOD to have those discussions-
But it seems to be that the astorology freaks cant even talk shop about astrology and the cult.

Ye gods if we WERE in a living room and a few people were analyzing Mahaha taste in cars in relation to his psycological profile- I would hope we could let them have the conversation even if most of us thought it was bunk .

Would you think it was ok for one of those present to storm in and challenge their premis???
wouldnt it be better to let them talk and ask them to ALSO engage in a defense of their philosophy on the side APART from their discussion??

Tell me if you see the distinction Jerry

Love and moonlight

Z
I do like debate - but I am saying something different here.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 08:11:40 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I disagree, Zelda
Message:
The astrologers got told that they should take the conversation about the subject (relating to Mhahah) elsewhere because it was bunk. I doubt if those present in the living room would stand for that.
Likewise the belief in god subject.

I think there is room for everyone here.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 12:03:37 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: I agree, Zelda
Message:
You know, Zelda,

What I don't understand is why these people who complain most loudly about 'submitting' to the m-trip, now want others to 'submit' to their opinions instead.

This site is beginning to remind me ofmy job before I got a transfer. :-p

Stonor

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:23:23 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: FA if what you say is true
Message:
The present thread was deleted for a number of reasons (all stated). As for comments on forum administration, we prefer to handle these via email. (It is a VERY busy mailbox, and sometimes we take a while responding, but will reply eventually).

Otherwise - as has happened in the past - the forum itself becomes a topic for never-ending forum discussions, which too can be disruptive. Various methods of handling the forum and problem posters - including forming committees of forum regulars - have been tried. Of all of them the present system seems to work with least disruption, and with the general approval of posters here (if the mailbox is anything to go by). The Forum Adminstrator role is never a single individual, but has already been handed around through over half-a-dozen volunteers, all of them forum regulars.

In a way it is a form of 'benign dictatorship by informal rota' and doubtless there will be inconsistencies between the way that different individuals carry out their duties on borderline decisions.

I don't know whether everyone would agree that Jim jumping in to disagree with an opinion on astrology is the same thing as starting a thread with no relevance to the cult to attack another forum member or is of the same scale of offence, but you are welcome to draw our attention to posts you find objectionable.

Thanks
FA

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:38:40 (GMT)
From: Bambi
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: By the way, don't try to tire me-out.
Message:
I guess FA lack of response on this is an answer in itself.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:44:52 (GMT)
From: Bambi
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: Please feel free to kick me out at will
Message:
Please feel free to kick me out at will.

1) I am not about to use one single nick. I have good reasons to suspect information gathered on this forum is used by DLM members against forum participants and would prefer to let as little as possible known about yours truly just in case. Beside, there is absolutely no point in having readers believe anyone writing here is honestly transparent. Using one single nick would only enhance this dangerous superstition which could only serve Rawat.

2) The post you deleted wasn't against anyone personally but meant to comment the lack of ethics displayed by one specific forum participant. Since you don't want me to talk about it, I won't but I maintain I am not about to accept one participant accusing another of being a mental case. Certainly not on the basis of disagreement on ideas expressed. Now I haven't pointed anyone, have I?

3) Since you have the power to kick me out of here I am fully willing to pay that price. I refuse to comply and demand a greater freedom to express what you may judge unacceptable. I and some others question your motivation for trying to censure me. Would you please justify your decision and identify yourself.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:24:32 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Bambi
Subject: Please feel free to kick me out at will
Message:
'but I maintain I am not about to accept one participant accusing another of being a mental case.'

Of course you are refering to some of Jim's insults to some of the people here. Yes, that sort of remark is definately out of order and should have been dealt with by the mysterious FA who was probably asleep.

You make some very valid points.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:43:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Bambi and Sir Dave
Subject: I agree re personal insults
Message:
I agree that personal insults like calling people stupid or mental cases are out of order.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 07:49:48 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: G
Subject: And who told me to fuck off in big html?
Message:
Don't remember ever doing that to you g,
now I just found it amusing,
but come on, double standards and all.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 14:22:09 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: all
Subject: In what context ? another example twisted 'truth'
Message:
For the record, this is the sequence ham is referring to, taken from section 35B of the archives. G goes on to explain to ham, who subsequently asked, how to change the font and colour of text in posts, which I have copied and saved for future reference. As I mention above, hamzen's accusation is, IMO, twisted truth. Fact, yes, but taken entirely out of context so as to make it appear that G is a hypocrite. And G, or someone else who might happen to remember that sequence, has to take the time to go back, find it, and post it because yet another person has taken a very cheap shot.

It makes me very uncomfortable to have to deal with this when it's done to me personally, as one individual has done repeatedly recently. As in a lot of bullying, the victim is seen as deserving it, and meanwhile is suffering doubly, both from the attack, and from the need to defend themselves from false accusations.

There are other more subtle personal attacks and examples of bully tactics evident here. Profanity and name-calling is not at all the only issue, IMO.

Apologies to G - I hope you don't mind my adding my tiddly-winks here.

Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 05:23:57 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I couldn't last here WITHOUT sarcasm
Message:

Personally, G, I couldn't survive here without sarcasm. But then that's just me. I'm sure you respect that.

Maybe you just think you couldn't survive without it. So are you saying that you do it as a psychological defense mechanism? Do you feel threatened? You do it excessively to the point where it's
predictable.

No, I know you didn't mention God in your recent argument with Jerry. (and then for some reason you go on to talk about other threads)

Exactly, and the other posts are not relevant. You need to learn to stick to a subject.

Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 09:38:27 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I couldn't last here WITHOUT sarcasm
Message:
You do it excessively to the point where it's predictable.

Could apply exactly the same argument to you g, that it's almost predictable that you'll never lose your temper and will always appear a bit stiff emotionally, but thats you, and Jim's Jim.

Personally think it's good that all the colours of the rainbow are here

Date: Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 16:08:57 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Is not losing one's temper a fault?
Message:
'all the colours of the rainbow' could include anything, so that doesn't justify the behaviour. I'm not condemning Jim or anyone else but criticizing the excessive use of this behaviour as harmful. I have a right to criticize it. Do you have a problem with that? So

Fuck off!

There, happy now? Wow, G lost his temper, he's a good 'ole boy. Wow, he just used some sarcasm also.

This is a public forum. My attitude is to discuss things civilly and to treat others with general respect. That does not equate to being emotionally stiff.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:43:33 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Maybe my humour is a bit warped but
Message:
I thought g would get the joke precisely because of the reasons you stated. My point was
(1) how to measure abuse because of differing viewpoints
(2) deja vu, practical solutions are required, maybe I'm just bored with this re-occurring, and have been here too long
(3) A classic example, I personally, and I'm being completely serious now, feel abused by new age ideas after all the years around the cult

which is why as you know from our e-mails that the only way I can see this site is like a medieval fair, which is very akin to free festivals over here in britain,

classic example, Castlemorton 1992, some people were selling seriously dodgy drugs, some travellers got hold of one of the dealers stuffed him full of acid and ketamine, put him on stage and made him do a public confession, not surprisingly he was'nt back selling dodgy drugs again
Arguments about this both ways, same here,

Re bullying, just in case you suspect I don't understand, just had a semi-breakdown after four years of abuse/bullying by my managers and directly my main manager, worked with a lot of members who are condsdtantly bullied too, most people who know me would see it as laughable that I could be perceived as a bully, yet in my arrogant premie days, much more arrogant than now, I had the perfect teacher, my wife felt bullied by me,
you see my point I'm sure, how to measure
but practical solutions????

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:59:58 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Thanks Stonor (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 14:50:52 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Lame excuse
Message:
Actually, Stonor, I'd say that G just told ham to fuck off, in that post. He obviously was making a point that if ham had a problem with him, he could fuck off. Trying to justify it by saying that G was just mimicing others is a lame excuse for using that kind of horrible, uncalled for, insulting, distasteful, rambunctious, hurtful language yourself.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:58:58 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Not so
Message:
That was obviously not the point I was making. I do see the humor in your saying 'horrible, uncalled for, insulting, distasteful, rambunctious, hurtful language', but I don't agree with your point.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:29:38 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: And yet another attack as a supposed response.
Message:
Standard bully tactic.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:47:37 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: yer such a dork, stonor, get lost
Message:
I'll take ten Jerry's and Jim's over one whiny, bitchy, weak, limp, insipid (word of the day) Stonor ANY DAY !!!
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 15:26:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: SHEEEIT. And I only recently emailed Stonor ...
Message:
... saying you weren't ALL bad, Gerry.

SHIT man, so you'd take ten Jim and Jerrys over one Stonor? Well, that may be YOUR taste Gerry, but what's your point in insulting Stonor?. Want to see her point of view eradicated from the Forum?

So you can't handle what Stonor says without insulting her? Then why bother taking in her posts, unless it's just that you get off on publicly insulting people who disagree with you? And THAT doesn't make you look too tough either.

Perhaps you should leave those posts to those of us who prefer a balanced reading.

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Date: Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 00:08:45 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Not too soft yourself, eh?
Message:
what happened? Is that true?

You have not read all her posts. Have you?

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 17:50:17 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: So she's got a rag on for me, big deal
Message:
Thanks for sticking up for me though, Chris. Saint Stonor does her share of insulting, so why shouldn't she expect the same back at her?

So you can't handle what Stonor says without insulting her? Then why bother taking in her posts, unless it's just that you get off on publicly insulting people who disagree with you? And THAT doesn't make you look too tough either.

Well Chris, I've had 'civil' conversations with Stonor both here and in e-mail. I DO get off on lambasting people with whom I strongly disagree. It's 'safe' to do so here and I find it liberating. Perhaps this is a fault and a weakness. I've got plenty of those. And I make no claims of being a 'tough guy.'

Perhaps you should leave those posts to those of us who prefer a balanced reading.

Are you trying to eradicate my point of view, by any chance?

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 19:27:31 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: SAME HERE!! Anytime.
Message:
Funny character of our daily soaopera, Stonor, non anything.

Mediocrity sucks.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:04:23 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hey, lay off of Stonor
Message:
I understand what she is trying to communicate - I used to do the same thing myself, but I burned out on it. And I don't think she is 'whiny, bitchy, weak, limp, insipid' at all - if anything, more the opposite - and much LESS like that then I myself tend to be (or at least TENDED to be before I got sick of it.)
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:18:21 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Don't tell me what to do, you bully.
Message:
What the fuck IS she trying to say?

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:44:43 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Don't tell me what to do, you bully.
Message:
Read the website she's got links to, Gerry - it is quite interesting. I don't agree with everything on the site, but it's definitely food for thought.

IMHO, bullying on this forum IS an issue for many people, although probably not for you. There are many people who do not want to post here because they don't want to get flamed or attract personal insults. They see a lot of the rough arguments that come down on the forum and don't want to be treated the same way. I know that some people say these people are 'weenies' or 'hothouse flowers', but I have talked to a lot of them and they are NOT that way. Many of them have just come out of a cult where personal criticism (and subsequent self-doubt) was used to control them! And what is so great about becoming so hardened to personal insults that they don't bother you?

TC -
Katie

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:57:41 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: But that's EXACTLY how he got each and every
Message:
one of us, we were all SO fucking sensitive to this world, for myself, and for christsakes I'm nearly fifty, I'm only now coming to terms with shadow side stuff, aggression etc

Personally, and much to my surprize, Jim's taught me a lot on this subject, including run in's I've had with him myself.

And anyway over gentleness is an inverse form of bullying itself, it could be argued, because it demands special treatment etc etc

I thought the recent exes site was there precisely to help gentler types come to terms with this shit.

I also know exes who don't come here because they find too many hothouse flowers and find it over polite etc

How to balance, and more importantly practical solutions that will work.

Is it a male'ish/female'ish problem.

Maybe we need two sites, one for sensitive new agers and one for scientific bullies, 50/50 joke and serious point in case anyone misreads!! :)

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 19:21:17 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Ham, I don't think there IS a solution
Message:
And that's why I didn't propose one.

Like I always say, the forum is a dynamic system controlled by the people who post here. Thus, whoever has the biggest mouth, not to mention the most free time to post, can dominate the tone of the forum. The FA's can enforce a few rules, but the forum population is so large, and the forum is so busy, that I don't think any group of people could enforce 'no flaming' or any other rule, for that matter. (Besides which, who would want to??!!)

My post above - just stating the facts.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 21:32:08 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: On another tack completely Katie
Message:
I'm more than a little worried about a certain person at the moment, I'm hoping you know who I mean, which if you do means they are not so isolated, are you still at the same e-mail address, thinking about it though not even sure I still have your old one, if you could e-mail me at the above it would be much appreciated. Thanx.

I know you know nothing can be done, although I do wonder if to save the deja vu aspect of this discussion, something could be put up on the site, but then maybe people just need to air this stuff and get it off their chests etc etc blah de blah

Maybe I've just been here too long now

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 23:38:38 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: This one, hamzen! (nt)
Message:
As discussed! ;-)
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:00:02 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Don't tell me what to do, you bully.
Message:
It was an interesting website, I did check it out. I also liked that site on bordeline personalities someone posted on AG.

This is an ideal environment in which to 'toughen' up a bit. I mean, whatever you post, what's the worst that can happen? Someone disagrees? Calls you a weenie (or worse?)

Sheesh, after the true life torment (including the cult) a lot of people have gone through, I don't understand the whining, pleading, desperate appeal for calm and niceness emanating from Saint Stonor.

Guess she's led a sheltered life...

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 17:53:39 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I love easy questions! Right here Gerry!
Message:
And you don't know the whole discussion between me and ham, so please don't assume anything.
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 18:50:03 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Thanks, but it was obviously a throw away line
Message:
meant to be an insult. I know nothing of your personal life or struggles.

Stonor, can you see that you 'dictates' constitute 'bullying' every bit as much as Jim's ridiculing of astrology?

What is it I am assuming? Your ability to communicate sucks, really. Especially for a teacher. Why don't you just come out and say what you mean and what you feel?

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:12:28 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor21@hotmail.com
To: gerry
Subject: Obvious to you, perhaps
Message:
They are not my dictates about what constitutes 'bully' behaviour. I thought you went to that 'Bully Online' I discussed this in different terms before, but I thought this site and its information helped to present it more clearly.

What you wrote about me was not just a 'throwaway line', IMO, and Katie didn't seem to think so either, but I won't go into it.

And yet still another personal attack on me. I bite my tongue again, although hamzen told me I shouldn't.

Hope you read my other post, but I'll add my email address here again, in case you don't have it.

I really have to get to my cooking.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 20:08:23 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Criticism does NOT constitue 'personal attack.'
Message:
Your communication really does suck at times, in fact, quite frequently. You might want to consider this.

Now you've DICTATED that I'm to email you instead of posting to you on this forum.
You've decided what language can be used here.
You've put limits on what is acceptable to express.
You've set yourself up as an authority here.

Crapola.

No wonder so many people here tell you to take a hike.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 20:44:09 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Haven't dictated, Gerry, only asked and commented.
Message:
Nothing more to say to you, Gerry.
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 21:24:37 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Easy way out, IMO.
Message:
And say that you dom't care for my ipinion, I understand. You splitted.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 19:30:22 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hi Gerry
Message:
I think it's hard for some people to post here because they don't want to 1)look stupid or 2)be made to feel bad about themselves.
Yes, I KNOW you shouldn't feel bad about yourself because of something someone says on the internet, but it happens - people DO feel bad. It has happened to me several times - thus my rule 'Do not post while crying' (I'm serious!).

I once posted that this was - as you said - an ideal environment to learn how 'toughen up a bit', and another ex answered 'Why should I have to put up with that here on the ex-premie forum when I get it all day elsewhere in my life?' I thought it was a good question.

Anyway, I don't have any practical solutions - much to Hamzen's amusement (snicker), and I don't think there are any - just talking.

P.S. I don't think Stonor's led a sheltered life at all - far from it. If she had, I doubt if she'd be speaking out here!

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:56:22 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Whining
Message:

Sheesh, after the true life torment (including the cult) a lot of people have gone through, I don't understand the whining, pleading, desperate appeal for calm and niceness emanating from Saint Stonor.

Will you stop whining about her whining?
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 19:43:12 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Whining
Message:
I'll stop whining about stonor's whining if you stop whining about my whining about stonor's whining...
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 22:34:51 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: It ain't whining Gerry, it's stating facts. (nt)
Message:
Vayas con Dios! ;-)
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:42:56 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I get tired of discussing people's intentions
Message:
Hi Stonor,
(And, BTW, I do not think Jerry is a bully, although he can be quite contrary at times.)

There's been a lot of discussion lately about people's 'intentions' in posting. The problem I see with this is that you can't really tell what someone's intentions are, ESPECIALLY on the net. There are no cues like body language, tone of voice, facial expressions to interpret. Emoticons, which I used to hate, do help. But basically what you end up with is a bunch of posts which say that the person intended THIS, and then a bunch of posts disagreeing and saying that the person intended THAT.

I have found it much easier to take what people say about their intentions at face value unless it is glaringly obvious that they are lying. And when I say 'easier' - I mean easier on MYSELF.

Take care -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 14:58:30 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Oh come on, guys
Message:
G was just trying to be funny after being accused of being emotionally stiff - *I* thought it was really funny, and I think Hamzen did too.

BTW, I have told SEVERAL people to fuck off on this forum - usually as a result of being attacked personally. I think saying 'fuck off' can be useful and effective if used SPARINGLY and only when the case really warrants it. I also don't view it as a PERSONAL insult - it is quite impersonal, if you ask me.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:06:05 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I'm not so sure, Katie
Message:
And I think G was telling ham to fuck off for telling him he was emotionally stiff. Now, if you don't mind, I've had my say, so I'll just fuck off quietly and go. Also, I was trying to be funny with all the adjectives I was using in my last post, in case somebody didn't get it.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 16:06:50 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: You calling me emotionally stiff?
Message:

Fuck off!
;-)


This time I used the color=red font attribute and included an emoticon.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 17:37:53 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Oooooh!
Message:
I'm telling Stonor, man. You fucking bully!
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 15:41:45 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The difference between a bully and a put-upon
Message:
The bully says says 'fuck off' (and a lot more besides) first.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 15:14:48 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Yeah, I got it :)
Message:
I know you were trying to be funny, and it was.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 13:59:41 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: 'I just found it amusing'
Message:
You're taking that out of context.

My intent was to make an amusing point and I made it clear that that was what I was doing. I expected you to find it amusing and you did. Consider what I wrote after 'Fuck off!':


There, happy now? Wow, G lost his temper, he's a good 'ole boy. Wow, he just used some sarcasm also.

This is a public forum. My attitude is to discuss things civilly and to treat others with general respect. That does not equate to being emotionally stiff.


Also consider that this was in response to you writing:

... it's almost predictable that you'll never lose your temper and will always appear a bit stiff emotionally.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 18:48:46 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I know that g, and I know you knew,
Message:
maybe my humour is just TOO dry sometimes,

that post was a joke too, which I thought you'd get, sorry!

But as I said in response to stonor, deja vu etc, PRACTCICAL suggestions, etc

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:06:52 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: if you really wanto to pursue this Bambi
Message:
Anything Goes is a better place for it.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:35:27 (GMT)
From: Bambi
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: if you really wanto to pursue this Bambi
Message:
I don't agree with you since this whole discussion concerns all forum participants. Now, what are you to do? Kick me out? Accuse me of being a mental case or accept to level with me?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:44:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: I'm the mental case you can't have MY styma
Message:
I htin kyou are just being disruptive. Interesting you chose NOW right after Jim leaves.
And right after my fight with him on AG

BTW FA's have my IP.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 09:17:03 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I'm the mental case you can't have MY styma
Message:
>BTW FA's have my IP.

Yeah, we've all got your IP.
You do love the attention.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 17:36:10 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: X
Subject: and how many names do you post under?
Message:
You don't seem to hate attention so much yourself. I
I had every reason to be a bit paranoid somone would think I was Bambi as I just had a BIG fight with Jim on AG.
But you know that I am sure.
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:06:14 (GMT)
From: FA's who is this X
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: and how many names do you post under?
Message:
I know you won't answer but I bet if you check into it you'll find 'IT' is using ip masking.
He was mean and threatening to me.
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 19:14:56 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: FA's who is this X
Subject: that should have read how names does
Message:
This X post under?
I know you won't tell me. But I am registering a complaint.
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 17:20:20 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: X
Subject: Say that was the case, so what
Message:
We ain't in a cult anymore, nothing great by showing you're humble and invisible, no spiritual humility league here thank god

you never liked a bit of attention, you never shone?

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 12:30:30 (GMT)
From: Mare
Email: None
To: X
Subject: Where have I heard that before?
Message:
Interesting X. Those were the exact words spoken to me last fall. In fact the person speaking to me repeated it to make certain I understood.

Weird and foul play...that you'd pop in with that.

I think you're twisted.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 17:39:37 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mare
Subject: thanks Mare and Ham
Message:
I don't even know what this X thing is talking about but it didn't sound friendly.
Fuck 'it' 'IT' doesn't deserve the attention. 'IT' is a creep.
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 21:31:25 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: is only a premie
Message:
deluded one, and yes, it sounded threatening.

Are some people wonderful or what?

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 22:14:36 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: 'X' is a creep
Message:
Yeah,

People here may leave me shaking my head (shp; Stonor); or chewing the carpet (Mel; O; shroom'); or laughing out loud (Jim; cq); or over-awed (G; Rob; Nigel); or just plain frightened (SB); or with a heart-a-flutter (Katie; Selene). And all the others, too numerous and diverse to mention.

But X leaves me feeling chilled and paranoid. His lurking and snide digs seem intended to make a person feel exposed and vulnerable. A one man justification for anonymity, I feel.

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 22:18:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: I wrote to the FA
Message:
I work in computing I don't need these references to my IP's.

Thank you JohnT and sb, as well as my previous thanks to ham and Mare. These kinds of support help conteract the subtle insidious that X is trying to get across.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:19:46 (GMT)
From: Mare
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: agree with Selene
Message:
Bambi,

I agree with Selene that Anything Goes is a better place to bring up your 'contentions' with Jim. However, if you stay behind a handle then you will lose some credibility.

I also don't think it fair to attack anyone while they are not here to defend themselves or have access to a venue to defense.

I think you'll find that your anger might have more to do with 'just Jim'. Hey, and I *do* understand anger but have learned to chill.

Mary

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:17:55 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: Sorry No
Message:
Who are you anyway? Have you been participating here under a different pseudonym.

Sorry, I'm not into censorship or ganging up on Jim.

Sure I find Jim somewhat bombastic at times but I think that his valid contributions to the forum more than offset any other tendencies.

Hal

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:41:42 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Sorry No
Message:
Apart from the reasons given above, Hal, Bambi's post was offensive.

And to restrict a forum with guidelines to certain categories of content and act in accordance with those guidelines is not, in itself, 'censorship' - though some may consider this to be the case.

The FA's try to keep intervention to a minimum and to encourage open discussion, but if nothing was ever edited or deleted the forum would consist of nothing but junk and spam-posts, and would be of little use or interest to anyone.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:22:11 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: I agree with you FA
Message:
I wasn't meaning that offensive posts shouldn't be deleted but more that I feel that Jims style was acceptable to me. Censorship wasn't the right word for me to use Sorry.

Hal

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:11:46 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: I support the FA on that. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 19:57:45 (GMT)
From: Bambi
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Bambi strongly disagrees
Message:
The deleted post wasn't offensive nor was it meant to be offensive. You and I will be the only judges of that since no one else could read it. You've got the power and you are the only judge of your own decisions. I can't even be certain this actual post will be displayed.

Beside, telling the specific forum participant his behaviour is utterly unacceptable neither is spam nor is it junk. I have to question your own motivations. Would you please identify yourself and tell us what your stand is. I suspect you may be linked to EV interests.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:05:22 (GMT)
From: Mare
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: Bambi strongly disagrees
Message:
Bambi responded:
The deleted post wasn't offensive nor was it meant to be offensive. You and I will be the only judges of that since no one else could read it. You've got the power and you are the only judge of your own decisions. I can't even be certain this actual post will be displayed.

Bambi,

YOU ARE FREE TO POST YOUR 'ALLEGED' OFFENSIVE POST ON ANYTHING GOES.... NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU....

So.... what's the problem. Shoot... I think I achieved the lifetime 'insanity' award here... so you needn't have any fear of taking that trophy.

I mean 'there's weird and then there's me'... I think it went something like that.

Mary

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:15:19 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: Bambi deer!- dont say FA is EV - loose credibility
Message:
Jeoy would say something like that
You must be Joey!!!!
Sheesh- dont blow your stand by saying that kind of stuff
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:20:39 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: I support the FA in this
Message:
and have had great contacts with the administrators for some time, and can reassure anyone that the forum is not administrated by moles or DLM/EV interests.

I also support the principle of not having personal attacks and off-topic threads about each other on this particular Forum, which is not intended for that. There's the AG forum where anything goes, and I for one am grateful that there is a bit of facilitation here, albeit subtle and minimal.

The forum administrators aren't doing this for any purposes of ego or money or personal gain, but as an offering of love and support that probably takes quite a bit of work. I'm not okay with them being attacked any more than anyone else.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:01:11 (GMT)
From: Bambi
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: I support the FA in this
Message:
Who are you and what do you serve beside the Forum Administrator no one knows anything about? You may be Raja ji himself as far as I know.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:33:14 (GMT)
From: Bimba
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Now, explain this please with respect due to logic
Message:
How come expressing the view by (B) that (J) calling some forum participant (Y) a mental case would be an unacceptable personal attacks from (B) toward (J) unworthy of expression while (J) calling a forum participant (Y) a mental case was acceptable. Mathematicians call it a paradox. If this is the type of forum the FA would like to design, I'll be glad to A) question it or B) be kicked-out again. I'll have to use the public library's computer next time. That's all.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:31:53 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: I agree there is a problem with 'personal attacks'
Message:
Hi Lurkex,

I've posted a number of times about my concerns about the 'personal attacks' I've witnessed and experienced here in any variety of contexts. It can be a very fine line to draw, and surely the FA cannot read everything or be expected to pass judgements on a daily basis. Any ideas as to how the problem of personal attacks, verbal abuse, and other 'bully' tactics could be reduced here, if not 'controlled'?

Stonor

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 21:35:00 (GMT)
From: IsIT?
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Criticism is not personal attack NT
Message:
no
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Date: Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 03:58:58 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: IsIT?
Subject: It's a fine line, and subtle too.
Message:
I hope I haven't offended you in any way, but most of the people in this thread are also email friends of mine, and I love them all.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:17:09 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: You are also a participant of that
Message:
Can you deny it? Posting anything that can be found and brought here, knowing that, means you participate in attacking Jim and others, doesn't it? Your remarks were more than 'fun' at Paradise, don't you agree?

Big deal. Let the ex-premies leave and make this a premie's forum. Sheesh.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:44:57 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: It's very difficult to let outrageous accusations
Message:
It is very difficult to let outrageous accusations and perceptions fly by, but this kind of attack, without substantiation, is but one example of what is not OK no matter where or how you look at it.
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 20:55:33 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Too wordy. No weight. (nt) zzzzzzzzzz
Message:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

NEW AGE IS DIVISSIVE!!!

Freedom is good. You must go further if you want to keep the conversation going until a conclussion is drawn, but you chose the hard way with me. You were nice to me in FV and were talking behind my back. I am an ex-premie Stonor, and I think you do not care about that. Put yourself in my position: How you see Stonor? Clownish. It's easy to complain the way you do, but you are forgettin about real freedom. I have my rights too. Is not like tones can erase argument; even if not a strong one, an argument is an argument and mine is that I am different than yours and I don't have to be like you. In whatever stage of my human growth I may be, for you to try to make me fit like Elaine in a demeaning sterotype, shove it.

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Date: Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 05:18:49 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor21@hotmail.com
To: sb
Subject: I read it, SB, beause you asked me to.
Message:
Hi SB,

I don't know what 'new-age' means. It is a term that is meaningless for me no matter how it is defined, because it is an overgeneralization, IMO. Hamzen wrote to me that it is 'blah, blah, blah', but I think that he maybe understood why it is still a meaningless expression for me, and maybe others as well. To many it seems to symbolize broken dreams, but in the words of Todd Rundgren, 'the dream lives on forever,' as it must in some form, or I would have killed myself by now.

When I went to Peru, I knew what I had to do and why, because I had prayed for growth, and accepted the opportunity to grow through my opportunities, choices, and experiences. In fact, when I went to Peru, I had the nerve (and am more than somewhat ashamed to confess), that I was in some way doing a 'reality test' on 'Whatever-it-is', and believe it or not, for me, 'It' came through with much more than flying colours, despite others' warnings of what would happpen in my particular context there. There is a special potential magic in, and between, human beings and all, IMO, and for me, that is at least an aspect, if not the heart, of 'Whatever-it-is'.

Much love, sorry if I've bored you,

Anna

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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 21:19:57 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: my friend stonor
Subject: Sorry, the above post it has text, read it.
Message:
I made a mistake.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:30:57 (GMT)
From: Bambi
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I have a suggestion on this
Message:
I have a suggestion on this and, for all it is worth, it may appear highly subversive and paradoxical but, to my knowledge, is the only one which may possibly work for the present format doesn't.

I suggest we, as the community of users regulate the forum as we would normally do in any other group. If someone wouls misbevave, the group would discuss ask the delinquant to correct his behaviour and may ask the FA to sanction him/her if all else failed.

I also suggest we discuss the forum objectives for these seem to be imprecise and set by some unknown individuals.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:18:11 (GMT)
From: GOD
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: Get your own forum (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:51:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: GOD
Subject: GOD speaks and sounds like always
Message:
On this one point Bambi made some good suggestions.
I don't agree with her on her main topic and reason for starting this thread, but these suggestions are not so bad and not so dissimilar from the ones JohnT made a while back.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:53:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ps
Subject: ps if this is Forum God from AG
Message:
You don't always sound like this GOD person you I hope you know I didn't mean that to be directed at YOU.

You are willing to discuss things with people.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:34:24 (GMT)
From: Forum God
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Selene
Subject: There is but one Forum God
Message:
and his name is Dave. Many shall come in his name and shalt say he is come but ye shall know him by his fruits which are found in The ANYTHING GOES Desert.

I am the Lord thy Forum God and the guy above is an imposter.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:11:04 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: ps if this is Forum God from AG
Message:
I'm going to get myself kicked out. Get it? LOL
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:28:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: yeah I read the FA admonishment to you
Message:
Down below. LOL is right! :)
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 00:03:17 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yeah I read the FA admonishment to you
Message:
Funny because that is what I said to FA myself: Others do and do not receive a warning. People talk about whatever and don't matter with them? I'm not saying this as if that bothers me because it doesn't. Is the truth. Oh well...Thanks for your support.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:44:17 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yeah I read the FA admonishment to you
Message:
I didn't read it. I running. Bye...LOL
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:59:22 (GMT)
From: just watching...
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: at a rough count....
Message:
is the only one which may possibly work for the present format doesn't.

So you say - but you appear to be the only person on this thread with a bee in their bonnet and the others seem to be in agreement with the admins.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:21:08 (GMT)
From: Bambi
Email: None
To: just watching...
Subject: Beware. Unanimity produces lampshades and soap
Message:
Please beware of 'unanimity'. It once produced lamshades and soap. By the way, did you conduct a survey to support your affirmation that 'Everyone else agrees?'
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:11:01 (GMT)
From: just watching
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: ex-premies aren't nazis
Message:
are you aren't a Nazi victim - or it's highly unlikely. So tasteless analogy. No survey - just reading the posts on this thread suggests you're speaking for no-one but yourself.

And why don't you take your problem with Jim over to Anything Goes?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:25:13 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: just watching
Subject: Who ever said they were? Mr.j. w. anonymous
Message:
I assume that was addressed to me. It's too bad you misconstrued that comment, but it clearly has nothing to do with even vaguely suggesting that ex-premies could ever be Nazi's, but rather the potential dangers of unanimity. Just last weekend it was suggested to me by an ex-premie that I was one step away from being a Nazi if I mentioned 'God' in any way, even as an agnostic who has never believed in a traditional concept of God - otherwise I never would have mentioned it, and it does seem to fit in with the idea of unanimity and mobs, doesn't it? See the way things go around here?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:37:44 (GMT)
From: just watching
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Bambi talked of lampshades and soap
Message:
..which is a clear reference to Nazi atrocities, presumably implying that a consensus here is like Nazi persecution.

The post wasn't aimed at you, Stonor. Why did you think it was?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:46:57 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: just watching
Subject: Bambi talked of lampshades and soap
Message:
Thanks for clearing that up. I'm really surprixed that I posted what I did without picking up on that, but it does seem that, in the end, Bambi and I were making the same statement about the potential danger of unanimous 'mob' rule.

Do you come here often? If so, why are you posting anonymously? Have you got any more insightful comments to add? (Just thinking about insightful/inciteful . . . no reflexion on you, but that potential confusion could cause some waves of misunderstanding, couldn't it. Life is full of fine lines.)

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:54:00 (GMT)
From: just watching - last time
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Bambi talked of lampshades and soap
Message:
I do come here often, and usually have a regular name. I don't like getting involved with personality clashes, since the forum has more important stuff to do.

I joined in on this occasion because, having done time myself as a forum administrator, I know how thankless and tricky the job can be, and I didn't like the disruption Bambi's causing at the moment. That's all. I'll be off now and trouble you all no more...

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:29:50 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: Ditto: Beware. Unanimity produces Hitlers and mobs
Message:
Good one Bambi, whoever you are!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:20:30 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: And some mask themselves as sheep.
Message:
Were you serious?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:19:02 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: Bambi strongly disagrees
Message:
Would you please identify yourself and tell us what your stand is.

That's the second time you asked the FA to identify himself (or herself, should the case be). I suppose 'Bambi' is YOUR real name, eh?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 20:58:04 (GMT)
From: Bambi
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: No. Bambi ain't my real name
Message:
I explained above why I use different nicks and don't expect anyone to agree with me. Now. This is what spirituality is to me.

Let me deciede for myself.

If I ask the FA to identify himself it is because he has power. I want to know who he is and what he is serving. His silence to the question would be suspect, wouldn't you agree?

The nature of Internet is lies. Have you ever believed the sexy blond you sometimes chat with may just happen to be another queer fat guy? Has it ever occured to you Bambi may also be Holiness and sometimes even Yolycow or Dwork? Has it ever occured to you this site may - and I just said may - have been set-up by EV? I doubt many things including God's non-existence as long as it hasn't been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. I would be a very bad juror, let me tell you.

I demand a freedom of expression at least equal to the one enjoyed by someone who freely accused a forum participant of being a mental case based on disagreement with ideas expressed. That, to me was not acceptable and I will take-up a fight on it anytime with my good arm tied behind my back. Now the deleted post mentioned it politely and with a little humour. It should have been posted.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:42:23 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Bambi
Subject: You're a cool chick in my book
Message:
I really like that 'I doubt many things including God's non-existence'.

Dig those crazy double negatives man. Hey, I'm reverting back to late sixties speak. But please, let's have more of these mind bending connundrums.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 21:59:51 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: No. Bambi ain't my real name
Message:
You sound like someone sent here to destabilize the forum, or just one of the folks who likes to fight with Jim from time to time. You're just taking up space better devoted to exposing the cult.

KIA

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:23:44 (GMT)
From: Bambi
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: No. Bambi ain't my real name
Message:
That is your opinion. I disagree with it yet strongly defend your privilege to express it.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:45:26 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Bambi
Subject: Hang on - I reckognise that voice
Message:
It's the cat isn't it. You're that hermaphrodite feline from down under. The cat's out of the bag, Felix. Ha ha ha.
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 09:22:20 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Hang on - I reckognise that voice
Message:
Yeah, apparently you dream about the Cat these days. meow
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Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000 at 00:44:03 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: It isn't the Cat, Dave
Message:
Catweasel wouldn't even bother. Bambi is someone familiar starting another new thread to attack Jim. You must be able to whistle the tune by now.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 04:46:03 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Where is Godzilla when you need him?
Message:
Hmmm, the Cat!

Me thinks that the Premie Team keeps recycling the same four or five players into the game.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:07:06 (GMT)
From: Skippy
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: No. Bambi ain't my real name
Message:
Hi There,
Can someone tell me how to find 'Anything Goes' Please?
Skippy
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:28:21 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Skippy
Subject: I LOVE easy questions: Anything Goes? Here you go
Message:
Anything Goes
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 10:14:01 (GMT)
From: King Munmut
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance
Message:
....and what is Amaroo?
I only found this site a few days ago. I posted a few times as,
St Phil of the light, but have now decided to have a name change.

Munmut: is that how it is spelt. Remember that satsang con ji gave about Shri Hans belting the shit outta this Munmut.... ie. the 'worst case' non practicing premie, one can be. The pits of the pits.
Apparently the munmut just loved it, and kept coming back
all the time for more. I 'DID' enjoy 'THAT' satsang actually.

Anyhow Amaroo?. I know it's a block of land near Brisbane.
I live about 150 miles from Bris. Is it 'just' a block of land with a residence where gum ji comes, and then a festival is held there.
Or is there more to it than this?.

OK , BELIEF AT A DISTANCE.
I have had nothing to do with con ji for about the last 16 years.
I practiced K off and on for about 10 years prier to that.
I was never a trashcan premie.
I stopped following him because I had to follow my heart.
I believed he was 'THE ONE' but I just kept feeling like a sucker.
Everytime gum ji would start to give the 'GIVE ALL' annotation
type satsang, I would get this unpleasant 'KNOT' in the depths
of my stomach. I did not know this bloke AT ALL. I could
not do this.
What's all this shit got to do with me and my feelings.
So I left to get in touch with my own inner feelings.
I was never a trashcan premie.Though I nearly was.

BUT I HAVE NEVER REALLY BEEN SURE....
WAS HE OR WASN'T HE.......

Unless one actually gets to know the person, then they are always just a type of idol figure, in this case, with the whole weight of thousands of other people calling him 'LORD'.
Mass Persuasion is a VERY VERY POWERFUL THING!!!!!!!

So over the last 16 or so years, I have pretty much just forgotten all about con ji. Out of the blue for no apparent reason I decided to do a search for gum ji and found this site.

NOW THIS IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT..........
People who have actually had this sort of personal contact saying that..
HE IS 'NOT GOD' 'NOT THE LORD'.
People who have been there and know.

I have read every word of every article on the Truth about M page.
I believe in what I have read here. 'Although', my belief is in my ass though ain't it. I mean, I believed in the little shit didn't I.

The fact that shit head would pay lawyers to close down sites like this.... a site with PEOPLE SPEAKING THERE HEARTS,
is enough to make me convinced. I am TOTALLY DISGUSTED
by this action.
God would never do this sort of thing. But then who am I to
say what god would or would not do. God can wipe out thousands
of people with storms or earthquakes. Maybe god is mean, which
means it is a very good chance that in fact Raw rat is god. Sounds like he would certainly fit the bill.

But then again, I never really gave a shit about him at all.
No NEVER EVER. I was following him only so' I' could have
'MY' wonderful experience. That was all I wanted, that was at
the bottom of it all, MY MY MY MY....so I'm only a selfish
little prick anyhow.

Every time I was at his feet....I DID NOT REALLY KNOW
FOR SURE. I was just doing what the 'Belief at a distance'
and the 'Idol syndrome emotion' told me to do.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 21:53:21 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: King Munmut
Subject: WOW I LOVE THIS THREAD ; THANKS TO ALL nt
Message:
hgf
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:42:43 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: King Munmut
Subject: A regal name
Message:
But it could cause confusion as there has been a Monmot posting on the forum for some time

Hal

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:14:25 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: A regal name--indeedy
Message:
Hi Hal:

Thanks for sticking up for my moniker. I could start posting as Queen Monmot just to keep things straight. Maybe King Munmut is my long last father? Queen Monmot does have a certain je ne sais quoi to it, doesn't it? Speaking of speaking French, we haven't heard from Jean-Michel in a while. On vacances?

QM

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 21:39:50 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Queen Monmot-- yeah love it !! nt
Message:
sf
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 10:59:49 (GMT)
From: Skippy
Email: None
To: King Munmut
Subject: The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance
Message:
Sounds like I am in a similar position to yourself. I have been glued to this site for some weeks now taking in everything. I am still not sure what to think. I have been in this for 27 years and can state truthfully that meditation has saved me on many occasions. I recently had a near death though and could not get focussed. The thing that was in the way seemed to be guilt. I have lived for years with guilt. First as a Catholic then as a premie. But I digress.

I have read premies beating themselves up for getting sucked in. As I remember it there were all sorts of strange cooincidences and signposts in one's personal experience that led one in. There was a kind of magic around in the early 70s. Maybe it was youth. I know I hated the 60s and was desperate for some spiritual relief... I was a classic mark. The first time a premie spoke to me he said, 'you are not your mind.' I felt intense relief because my thoughts were always so negative and painful.

I worry about all the hate focussed on M. I think hate is hate and we were never about that. I think the most obvious explanation for all this is that he too is deluded. It has taken years of education and psychology for us to reach the point where we can recognize this. I have been deluded about one thing or another for as long as I can remember. I hope no-one hates me, but I'm sure some do.

I will keep watching and reading and see where it takes me. I feel a strange thrill of freedom that seems to tell me I will wake up one day and not be afraid anymore.

Skippy

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 03:36:21 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Skippy and King Munmut
Subject: The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance
Message:
Welcome to the Forum. It seems you both got K around the same time I did -- in '72. I was a 16 year old who was searching for the answer to life's difficult questions, having been wrongfully arrested on drug charges, having my father commit suicide, and having endured other emotionally demanding challenges at a very early age. I lived in the ashram, and fortunately extracted myself from the cult when I was 20 and went to law school. I found this site nearly a year ago. It educated me about how the cult and M had transformed into the money grubbing entities which were developing around the time I left. I was and am horrified by the abuses that were perpetrated by M and his organization, tales of which can be found in our Journeys and in linked sites.

The Forum is a wonderful place, often changing, and usually enlightening. The strident tone of some of our posts is the result of ex-premies reaching a point of frustration and fury about the cult injustices this site has revealed. Don't be put off by it. I was at the beginning, but came to understand what precipitated these emotions. Watch, read and learn.

You will find valuable friends who can help you sort out your feelings and experiences. Take advantage of those friendships.

Good luck in your Journey to recovery. You will be glad you arrived here.

Take care, Marianne

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 06:41:27 (GMT)
From: Skippy
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks
Message:
It is very kind of you to express understanding of what I am going through. No-one should trivialise 27 years of delusion and loliness. No wife, no children, nothing established, no confidence. Now no salvation. Well at least I realize I am alone and that is familiar country.

Skippy

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 02:28:33 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Skippy
Subject: The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance
Message:
Hi Skip
I'm an Aussie and have been checking this site for about 5 months.I got k in 1978, but knew about m from 72. When you said about your near death and couldn't focus- my mum was a real 'on 'premie for years and when(or before) she died she felt nothing from k or m. no comfort no focus no experience and she said at the end I realised your loved ones ie. familyetc are what life is all abot
gotta go-good luck
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 23:25:34 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Skippy
Subject: It took me 27 years too
Message:
Hi, I empathise greatly having been in just the same place 6 months ago. One of the strangest phenomena was the way that everything that M & K had promised me seemed to be coming true now that I was leaving him!

A sense of freedom, growth, joie-de-vivre, peace....it was enough to get me worried that he really was the Lord! Thankfully, I can report that the 'mirroring effect' goes away with the extra stability and peace of mind plus a bit of time.

The first time I realised that I was entertaining thoughts that Maharaji had conned me I felt really sick. I was looking at a picture of him and one part of my mind was busy building a 'bridge' back to him to stop the queasiness at any cost, and another part was fearful that all the love and trust I had placed in him would now turn to black fury and hatred. Not at all.

It's now been about 6 months, and the view has kept on getting better, my sense of humour definitely has a religious tinge to it, make a good joke about living with religion and I'm helpless!
I am astonished at how rapidly the fat twit has diminished on my horizons.

Yeah well, my opinion of 'the living master' has dropped pretty low. Deluded or not, I remember him responding to a new premie asking him if he could travel with him by saying 'you don't want that, I burn out the people around me.' He's not blind, deaf and dumb, he can assess what has happened to the people around him even if they do keep diving for his lotus toes, he must have some idea of what it's like for all the 'common premies', and yet the last words I hear from him on the subject (at Amaroo) are a suck up to the 'community premies' as the ones who would do the propagation. My opinion of him would rise though, all forgiven, if he would exhibit the honesty, guts and simple human caring that is needed.

Fortunately, I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen, I guess he is more likely to come to a sticky end. LE

PS I'm really enjoying NOT meditating, hahahahaha, oops just remembered I did meditate two days ago, and enjoyed it as ever!

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 06:49:08 (GMT)
From: Skippy
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: It took me 27 years too
Message:
Wow,
Thanks for the reply. It is early days yet and i have had please teach me devotion droning in my head all day. I realised that was a piece of outside alien programming that was injected into my silly willing head. God knows what else is in there.
As I say... early days. Probably the sign that healing is enduring will be when I no longer need to look in this forum for support and info. I will believe in myself again

Cheers
Skippy

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Date: Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 01:21:54 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Skippy
Subject: Skip, if you can afford it...
Message:
you might consider professional help in sorting all this out. It would probably speed things up considerably.

You're doing great though, congratulations, you have a wonderful attitude.

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 21:20:07 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Skippy
Subject: were you in Bris for the strong/weak arm analogy
Message:
He talked about how we were walking around with one arm strong from exercise and one arm weak from lack of use; in his analogy the weak arm was 'the heart' and the strong arm 'the mind'.

In order to experience 'that feeling' you have to suspend critical faculties and surrender to the process, either of the group dynamic or the meditation techniques. Nothing so awful in that is there? after all if you go to the theatre and you want to be entertained you will do the same thing. However, if that suspension becomes your constant focus, if you are being told and believe that your very salvation is at stake, things get a bit screwed.

In my experience, thinking and feeling are inextricably linked, they come from the same source and are interactive, eg if you feel frightened you will think fearful thoughts, feel love and you will think loving thoughts. Think of someone you love and you will feel loving feelings.

Of course premies have one strong and one weak arm, of course premies exhibit a lack of common sense (something M complains about regularly), it is because they are listening to and following his instructions. it is a natural consequence of the abuse we have been meting out to our own minds.

And of course we need the help of eachother to sort ourselves out. Take a bow, Skippy, congratulations and hello, Lesley

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 21:38:33 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: Beautiful post lotus eater
Message:
Really clear, well written and spot on to my eyes.
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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 08:28:55 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Skippy
Subject: Re teach me devotion
Message:
Drone describes stuff like that perfectly, that's the wonder of repetition for you, god the number of times we've heard those very limited number of keywords drummed into our brains, so on some level you switch off, but we were still there hearing the repetition, so it's internalized even deeper.

Scary shit, but so liberating to dump the guilt when you tell those little head voices to fuck off.

And remember skippy, it could be worse, you could still be there trying to convince yourself mr squeeky voice knows best!

Wish you all the best,
hope you n-joi, as they say

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 01:21:54 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: That Strange Phenomenon
Message:
Hi LE:

You said, 'One of the strangest phenomena was the way that everything that M & K had promised me seemed to be coming true now that I was leaving him!

How true that is. I've been out for quite a while now, and I found that the irony of ironies was that, in the process of 'leaving M,' I achieved the very things I thought I'd get by following M. Believe me, it took quite a while for me to cut the threads, and it's an ongoing process still, but you're right, the joie de vivre etc. just gets better.

Good luck on your Joie Journey.

M

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 16:29:28 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Skippy
Subject: Follow the thrill of freedom, Skippy
Message:
Hate is not what we are about. I agree.

This is a forum where a lot of people are enjoying the ability to express ourselves after a long period of guilty suppression. A lot of the anager that comes out here is the shadow of having been programmed into not feeling our feelings for so long.

Anger and hate are a little different. Personally, I have some anger at MJ, but not hate. Hate is when anger gets fossilized and projected into a belief about someone 'out there,' rather than experienced as a dynamic energy moving through the body and mind. As far as MJ, that person 'out there' is concerned, I would say that I have a sort of unconditional love for him, the kind, in fact, he claimed to have for me but really didn't. In other words, I love him as a human being but don't want to be involved with his behaviors. I despise and wish to come out of the closet about his behaviors, and their effects on thousands of people, but this doesn't mean I despise or hate him personally. This may seem like splitting hairs to some people, but then again, nanotechnologies (that deal with infinitesimally small distinctions) are the future of mankind. Let yourself move any anger or frustration through and out of yourself, rather than directing it inwards, which causes depression and guilt. And remember, to really, unconditionally love anyone else you have to love yourself first.

Best of luck. Follow the thrill and you will make it back into your full fearless happiness.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 22:02:43 (GMT)
From: Skippy
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Follow the thrill of freedom, Skippy
Message:
Hi There,

Thankyou for those kind words. They brought tears to my eyes.
The strange thing is I love to meditate. Now I am finding I am troubled by devotional songs in meditation. Obviously a long journey lies ahead.

Skippy

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 23:21:27 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Skippy
Subject: meditation
Message:
Hi Skippy,

Those devotional songs are just crazy thoughts, crazy concepts ;-)

G

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 21:45:08 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Skippy
Subject: Follow the thrill of freedom, Skippy
Message:
Do you know about the recent exes forum ? A non flaming civilised place to talk about these issues .

Apply to recentexes@yahoo.com

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 05:34:50 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Skippy
Subject: meditation
Message:
Skip, you say you like to meditate, I think a lot of people do still, but are maybe looking at the techniques as they stand alone and not given by god...Buzz and Happy 'posted' me some very interesting information from their research into the history of the techs(I guess you know they are not exclusive to m). Maybe you could ask them or look in forum archives-I have the date and time they were posted.

sam

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 06:58:34 (GMT)
From: Skippy
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: meditation
Message:
Yeah Thanks Sam,
I guess I have realised M doesn't own the techniques. That is a nice feeling. I have to acknowledge though that I learned about them through his mission. I remember Padarthanand, who was most active down here, as a powerfully pure human being. I think it was his influence more than anything that kept me there early on. In fact I practised the techniques incorrectly for 3 years and was surrounded by premies whom I can only describe as crazy robots. Still I was able to rationalise things. I used to excuse wierd and mean spirited behaviour by expressing compassion for whomever it was who was hurting me then. I can't imagine ever stopping meditation after more than half a lifetime at it. It is the devotion thing that was the folly.
Cheers

Skippy

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 10:10:03 (GMT)
From: King Munmut
Email: None
To: Skippy
Subject: So where is Padarthanand now?
Message:
That's who I got K from. Does he still follow little shit?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 12:31:24 (GMT)
From: King Munmut
Email: None
To: Skippy
Subject: The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance
Message:
Yeah Skip.. I Truly believe you will always feel guilt if
you beleive in Raw rat.
Then 'DO EXACTLY AS RAW RAT SAYS'....I quote.
At a program in Brisbane, someone asked his Lardshit if one should feel guilt.
His Lardshit replyed, and I DO QUOTE...maybe not the exact words but close enough....'I YOU FEEL GUILT, THEN YOU ARE BETTER OF
WITH OUT ALL OF THIS'.....unquote.

YOU LITTLE FUCK'N BEAUTY LORD.....I'll DO EXACTLY AS YOU SAY...
I'm fuck'n outta here and I'm never listening to you, or having
anything to do with you again...AND WITH THE LORDS BLESSING TOO'

WEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FREEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A TRUE STORY FOLKS

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Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000 at 07:03:11 (GMT)
From: Skippy
Email: None
To: King Munmut
Subject: The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance
Message:
:) Great nick . I loved that story too.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 12:23:40 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Skippy
Subject: The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance
Message:
Nothing to be afraid of, Skippy! Is good to be free!

I understand your position; it was mine few months ago. I began to read this forum while I was a premie and information did it for me. I began to find here answers to my questions and doubts about guruji. What is K but a lie based on 4 yoga techniques masked with the tool of DEVOTION for Lard? I ended up walking away and walking has giving me a sense of freedom that I didn't felt while in the cult.

Learning here the truth about greedy maharaji and his dirty dishonest organizacion, the divertion of funds going to his pockets, and that his satsangs are simply a way to keep you 'in thouch' with YOUR devotion for him and tied to the cult was very liberating. There is nothing for me to be proud of having been a premie, in fact, it ashames me, now that I can look at all from the outside. What an idiot he is. How well he trapped us. His trip was very appealing to my then religious mind, only until I defied his order to 'Don't leave room for doubts in your mind' and the results were fantastic; I didn't belong at the feet of a greedy liar guru!!

What I got over the 25 years I was involved is nothing compared to what I lost. He is a crappy deluded person. I hope you open your eyes and decide to help yourself.

good luck!

SB

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Date: Thurs, Aug 24, 2000 at 12:15:24 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Skippy
Subject: The Idol syndrome emotion and Belief at a distance
Message:
Guilt is gumji li hold on premies. It has been installed in
us during the time that we spent in gumji li world.
Through service, satsang and meditation. Through the premies.
We were all afraid to question what will happen if I walk
away from him. Those that did I thought they were in their
minds whatever that was.
Guilt is what shroomi tried to make us feel.

Gumji li is just like me and you, maybe even less, he is half wit, delerict human that has no purpose but to do all the
things that he denied us to do, starting with education, food,
shelter and the right to be treated with respect. Munmut should
have had his head examined, most likely he enjoied beeing beatten
The story against gumji li it to long, but you can always piss on him.(see previous post on how to leave maharaji with no guilt).

I have not the slightest dought about who he is. He is everthing
that this site claims he is and ten times more.

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