Susan -:- my letter to Rawat and EV's response -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 18:36:08 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- thanks to all -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 15:10:24 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Rawat, EV and the Paedophile -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 09:58:18 (GMT)

__ __ abi -:- Rawat, EV and the Paedophile -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 08:06:32 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- That's not enough for me! -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 07:55:11 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- That's not enough for me! -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 15:30:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Exactly! They're still fucking bastards! -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 15:44:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Crafted double-speak and vagueness -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 02:22:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Freudian slip? -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 03:26:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- No, I think that most premies are decent -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:32:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yeah, and the point is that their money is... -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:40:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Crafted double-speak and vagueness -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 02:27:07 (GMT)

__ Scott T. -:- my letter to Rawat and EV's response -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 05:36:32 (GMT)

__ Yves -:- This guy us a dwork. -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 04:12:17 (GMT)

__ Rob -:- The shame of the cult. -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 03:04:59 (GMT)

__ __ Rob -:- ps to Jim, Marianne et al -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 04:15:59 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- The whole thing makes me.. -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 02:57:33 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Excellent Ex-manship! -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 02:13:40 (GMT)

__ __ Tonette -:- This isn't closure -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 03:03:53 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- thanks Susan -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 22:31:14 (GMT)

__ __ Yves' away -:- Speechless -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 23:15:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- I don't take it wrong Yves -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 23:45:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Yves -:- I get everything but respect -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 04:03:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- huh? -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 04:59:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- You're. I didn't make sense -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 14:16:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I think Brave is the right word -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 11:50:51 (GMT)

__ Roger eDrek -:- EV possibly concealing a significant fact -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 21:36:03 (GMT)

__ Katie -:- my letter to Rawat and EV's response -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 20:48:13 (GMT)

__ __ Elaine -:- ditto: everything Katie said -nt -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:04:52 (GMT)

__ cq -:- quote 'not a new incident' endquote -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 20:27:27 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- my letter to Rawat and EV's response -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 20:20:36 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- his big brother -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 22:56:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- That's a great idea -- send it to Satpal -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 02:22:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ xxordinaire -:- That's a great idea -- send it to Satpal -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 21:17:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- That's a great idea -- send it to Satpal -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 12:02:41 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Great Courage, Susan -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 20:14:17 (GMT)

__ __ P-man -:- Great Courage, Susan -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 18:57:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Good point, the Maharaji is basically AMORAL... -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 19:08:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'THE Maharaji' - love it! -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 00:55:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The use of articles, the, this and that -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:31:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- 'Great King' -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 16:30:05 (GMT)

__ Carol -:- my letter to Rawat and EV's response -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 20:08:26 (GMT)

__ Way -:- my letter to Rawat and EV's response -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 19:35:00 (GMT)

__ Yves -:- Thanks a million for keeping us posted -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 19:34:30 (GMT)

__ __ xxordinaire -:- Thanks a million for keeping us posted -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 21:18:48 (GMT)

__ __ Yves' being replaced -:- See the face and buy a plane ticket to bihar -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 20:04:03 (GMT)

__ suchabanana -:- my letter to Rawat and EV's response -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 19:05:35 (GMT)

ExTex -:- Thanks for Putting up with -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 17:49:58 (GMT)

EddyTheTurtle -:- SoHung -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:29:20 (GMT)

__ ExTex -:- SoHung -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 06:07:48 (GMT)

__ __ Carol -:- Very True nt -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 06:51:51 (GMT)

__ So well hung -:- realiest? you mean earliest? (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 17:10:42 (GMT)

__ __ EddyTheTurtle -:- dont get hung up -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 17:11:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ who flung dung? -:- dont get hung up - just read this 'objet trouve' -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 18:27:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Wondered when the trolls would show up. -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:40:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- My God, that was classic -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:10:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ carol -:- he just replaced the names/it circulated the net -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 07:00:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- he just replaced the names/it circulated the net -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 16:38:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- How'd you know I was a he? -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:12:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- fuck you Elaine, you dope -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 14:11:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Missed you, gerry. Glad you're back. (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 18:12:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Why -:- don't you take your angst -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 15:49:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Dear gutless, anonymous 'why' -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 15:57:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ OK I confess.. -:- I'm seriously pussy-whipped. -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 16:58:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ carol -:- I'm seriously pussy-whipped. -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 07:06:43 (GMT)

Wish -:- Therapy? Tai Chi? Yoga? -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:05:36 (GMT)

__ Carol -:- Therapy? Tai Chi? Yoga? -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 07:32:06 (GMT)

__ Lotus Eater -:- two weeks at the beach with a family friend -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:35:36 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- Addendum -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 03:23:10 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- A good friend -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 03:17:18 (GMT)

__ buzz -:- Therapy? Tai Chi? Yoga? -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:11:29 (GMT)

__ __ RobertB -:- Therapy? Tai Chi? Yoga? -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:23:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- You forgot one -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 09:04:03 (GMT)

Q -:- Do any of you still believe in Awakening -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 15:38:46 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Do any of you still believe in Santa Claus? (nt) -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 04:55:10 (GMT)

__ ExTex -:- Do any of you still believe in Awakening -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 05:47:24 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- Thanks, ExTex, great post (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 15:02:16 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- What in the hell are you talking about? nt -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 03:25:34 (GMT)

__ Elaine -:- Do any of you still believe in Awakening -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:21:05 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- I hope you didn't actually pay for that, Elaine -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 02:02:16 (GMT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- Whazzup? -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:49:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ Elaine -:- Whazzup? -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 16:54:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Whazzup? -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:11:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Whazzup? -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:11:59 (GMT)

__ Q -:- Just because you know you're asleep... -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 19:59:43 (GMT)

__ Yo. Pick-up the phone -:- Wake-up -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 18:30:16 (GMT)

__ Way -:- Do any of you still believe in Awakening -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 17:28:12 (GMT)

__ __ Han -:- Do any of you still believe in anything... -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 02:47:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ Way -:- To Han, on beliefs -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 14:43:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Han -:- To Way, on semantics. -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 17:04:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- To Han, a hypothetical test -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 18:53:50 (GMT)

__ Steve -:- Do any of you still believe in Awakening -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:28:34 (GMT)

__ __ Plurr -:- Do any of you still believe in Awakening -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 09:39:00 (GMT)

__ buzz -:- Do any of you still believe in Awakening -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:12:49 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- No (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:07:05 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- The Great Awakening -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 15:53:03 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- That is funny..nt -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:08:10 (GMT)

Way -:- Ivory's Rock and the Australian Tourist Center -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 14:28:02 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Good work, Way -- I also emailed them -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:18:35 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- How about -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 14:54:52 (GMT)

__ __ lotus Eater -:- funny, funny idea -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 19:23:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Just don't drink any koolaid served by premies! NT -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 00:00:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Just don't drink any koolaid served by premies! NT -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 05:11:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Never can tell.....wait until. -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:35:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- And shroom can be the head butler. -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 05:45:22 (GMT)

Salam -:- Look at this site. -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:49:59 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- Maharaji and Setpal use the same condom?!! -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 15:57:31 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- WOW, a premie acadamy in Malaysia. -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 14:46:01 (GMT)

__ __ Private Investor -:- WOW, a premie acadamy in Malaysia. -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 20:16:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- The links on your post are not working -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 05:51:18 (GMT)

JTF -:- re: Tammy Fay Rawat -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 11:52:50 (GMT)

__ Yves' intimate friend -:- My educated guess it she's not as lucud as that -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 12:08:38 (GMT)

__ __ JTF -:- My educated guess it she's not as lucud as that -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:47:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Yves' away -:- I didn't read that. Thanks for mentioning it. -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 14:27:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Yves in his mind -:- Everyone has a price. I'd be willing to forget it. -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 14:39:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Yves in his mind -:- Nothing yet -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 22:34:25 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Not so sure -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:20:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ Yves' intimate friend -:- I didn't realize that. Nonetheless... -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:58:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good post .... 'f' (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:29:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sara -:- I know schroomage is good at it..but.. -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 03:15:51 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- New stuff/pages on EPO -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:02:18 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Excellent, JM, Thanks. -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 18:11:44 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- New stuff on Seva Corp., maybe EXTRA? -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 07:45:17 (GMT)

__ blood -:- How does knowx.com bill? -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 09:33:28 (GMT)

suchabanana -:- get a life -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 06:51:07 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Baa baa, moo moo -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 18:14:33 (GMT)

__ Yves' ou to lunch -:- You convinced me (Ki Jay) -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:27:12 (GMT)

__ sam -:- get a life -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:19:00 (GMT)

__ Steve -:- get a life- tut tut......... -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 07:15:58 (GMT)

__ __ sam -:- get a life- tut tut......... -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:41:31 (GMT)

__ __ Sara -:- get a life- tut tut......... -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:29:47 (GMT)

Mr Bubblehead -:- To Jim.......ot -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 06:19:15 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- Geez......Another one in need of a good fuck!! -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:56:42 (GMT)

__ __ Mr Bubblehead -:- Well, now you mention it. -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 08:21:14 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Send me your picture, Tonette? (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 02:42:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Yeah, I want to see her too. Such a foul mouth! nt -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 03:07:03 (GMT)

__ Y argue? -:- In a nutshell: please stop existing -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:37:16 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- You must be a politican...nt -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 12:56:25 (GMT)

__ ExTex -:- Yer KILLING me, vis-a-vis, LOL per se (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 06:34:11 (GMT)

__ Steve -:- I like that- now I know why I lose arguments nt -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 06:25:48 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Yes, anonymity is SUCH a good idea (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 06:24:17 (GMT)

jondon -:- M is not, nor has ever claimed to be a Prophet... -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 03:23:33 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- OMG, I didn't know that was a joke!!!! -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 02:10:09 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- Do your homework Jordan -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:50:25 (GMT)

__ Steve -:- thanks for the laugh ! nt -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 05:46:17 (GMT)

Lucas Spielberg -:- old unused footage from the LOTU video -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 01:24:28 (GMT)

__ Monmot -:- old unused footage from the LOTU video -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 03:46:17 (GMT)

__ Yves in his mind -:- Why not? -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 02:48:10 (GMT)

__ ExTex -:- old unused footage from the LOTU video -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 01:35:08 (GMT)

Forum Administrator -:- Forum participation at all-time high...! -:- Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 15:59:58 (GMT)

__ sam -:- I cant believe how many -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:27:40 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- M indeed told premies NOT to read exes websites -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:05:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Here's a shameless plug for my web site -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 18:00:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- I can tolerate that..nt -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 06:56:43 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- Forum participation at all-time high...! -:- Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 16:20:33 (GMT)

__ __ Charlie -:- participation high but what about direct action? -:- Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 22:19:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ sam -:- participation high but what about direct action? -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:50:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ Tonete -:- I agree and....... -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 01:57:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Are you any relation to Tonette? (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 05:21:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I agree and....... -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:52:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ sam -:- I agree but oz too far away.nt -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:52:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- That is wroung thinking Sam. -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:14:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ activist -:- participation high-what about direct action?G? -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 01:08:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- direct action -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 02:06:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Harrogate local media -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 03:01:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ ki -:- I think oz is a target at moment -:- Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:57:09 (GMT)

Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 18:36:08 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Everyone Subject: my letter to Rawat and EV's response Message:

9/11/2000 Dear all, I took a break from posting because was in the process of responding to the Élan Vital’s FAQ regarding Jagdeo, “Has Élan Vital covered up alleged past improper behavior?” Now that I have received an official response from EV, here is my report on the actions I have taken. After much thought as to how best respond to EV’s FAQ, I decided to write a letter to Rawat and try to have it delivered to him directly. I was able to accomplish this with the assistance of Michael Dettmers. Although Michael was not sure that he could succeed in getting my letter delivered directly to Rawat since he had had no contact with Rawat for at least a decade, he promised me that he would use whatever “residual influence” he may still have to see that my letter was delivered personally to Rawat by someone who has direct access to him. To that end, Michael enclosed my letter inside a personal letter he wrote to Rawat. When Rawat received Michael’s letter, he did not know the purpose of Michael’s communiqué nor that it contained my letter. Given EV’s subsequent responses to our letters, I am confident that Rawat received my letter. What follows are copies of our letters and EV’s responses. My letter to Rawat (I am editing the original letter I sent to respect the privacy of another victim) July 19, 2000 Dear Mr. Rawat, My name is Susan Haupt. I am the person known as “Susan” who has made public on the ”Ex-premie Website” my experience with Jagdeo when I was a teenager. I am writing to you now in response to claims made on your Élan Vital website in a new section called FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions). In response to the question “Has Élan Vital covered up alleged past improper behavior?” you state that “We are aware that some opposing sites make allegations in particular against one individual concerning events alleged to have happened 25 years ago. This kind of behavior, if true, is completely unacceptable to Élan Vital and we would be as appalled as anyone if this was found to be true. The only information we have comes from postings on these sites. We were able to contact two individuals who made these allegations and asked that they help shed light on what happened but as yet have received no cooperation from them. As it stands Élan Vital has still received no direct information from any of the alleged victims and to date no complaint has been filed with Élan Vital or with any authorities”. Mr. Rawat let me assure you that twice in the past I have reported what had happened to me and what I knew about Jagdeo. First to Randy Prouty and secondly to Judy Osborne who both allegedly now claim “no recollection” of the conversations I had with them. So naturally, I feel insulted that you think I am unwilling to come forward with a complaint, nor do I have any trust that Élan Vital really wishes to seriously investigate this matter. However, I still have deep concern that Jagdeo may still be molesting children, despite his advanced age, and if reporting this matter a third time might allow you to finally stop him, I shall do so. Although I am now 38 and happily married with three children, in 1977, I was a 15-year-old premie living in Miami. I had been very involved with the Divine Light Mission for the previous two years and had received knowledge from Mahatma Jagdeo in January 1975. I was very sincere in my commitment to “Guru Maharaj Ji” and when I sang arti I believed every word. I also lined up with the other premies to receive darshan. I believed I was a part of the greatest miracle of the perfect master incarnating on earth to bring Knowledge and peace to mankind. I point this out now because, had I not believed these things, I might have dealt with what I knew about Jagdeo differently. How I dealt with what did happen is something I regret tremendously. To understand what happened, and how it happened, one really has to recall the common premie beliefs of that time. These were beliefs that you were obviously well aware of and promoted. I went to satsang nearly every night, meditated morning and night, and attended every festival I could. I believed you were the perfect master, superior power in person, my Lord, my satguru. I believed you to be a benevolent, kind, messiah-like figure. So in 1977, I was 15, when Jagdeo returned to Miami, I was thrilled because, as my initiator, he was special to me. He also seemed to have a special fondness for children. At my knowledge selection and session, several young girls with flowers in their hair sat at his feet. At this time in DLM, Mahatmas were treated with great respect, and certainly it was an honor for these girls to sit facing the crowd, at Mahatma Ji’s feet. Everyone knew he seemed to love children. In 1977, he invited me, then 15, and another (edited for privacy) to the Venetian pool in Coral Gables. I felt honored. An ashram premie brother drove us there (I do not remember his name). While we were in the pool, Jagdeo rubbed up against me over and over. He did this especially in the caves there. But, I did not think too much about it, I thought it was accidental. When we returned to the ashram (edited for privacy) and I were alone with him for the first time. He began singing songs and shouting “Bhole Shri Satguru Dev Maharaj Ki Jai” a lot. We would sing and cheer with him. After each song or cheer he would hug us. At first it just seemed like we were expressing joy over being premies and the fact that Guru Maharaj Ji, the living perfect master, was here and we were his devotees. But, these hugs evolved into something else. Each time he would hug us, his hands would end up on our breasts or buttocks. I would try to wiggle out of these hugs without being obviously disrespectful to him. I could not believe it was happening. I questioned my own judgment. I thought maybe in India people did not know not to touch these areas, I thought maybe Mahatma Ji was so “pure” that he did not know. But he was trembling each time he touched us. (edited for privacy here too, but this section of the letter makes it clear that I knew of worse incidents of abuse than what happened to me) also told me that the other girls at my knowledge session had experienced some level of molestation from him, as they refused to go near him and called him “nasty”. I was very upset about this and I knew that it had to end. I was certain as to the correct way to end it as well. I had to let Guru Maharaj Ji know. I did not even consider telling my mom, a non-premie, or the police. Not only did I not want to embarrass Guru Maharaj Ji by telling, I also genuinely felt that telling you about this situation was the ultimate way to find justice. I loved and trusted you completely, but you were not terribly accessible to the average premie. I knew Randy Prouty fairly well from his days as a community coordinator in Miami in 1975. I thought highly of him and he had personal access to you. I felt that telling Randy would be the best way to let you know. So, when Randy came to Miami in 1977, I told him what had happened (edited for privacy here but I did make it clear to Randy that there was worse abuse and more victims than just myself). Randy said “You did the right thing to tell me,” and that he would tell you. I trusted Randy, and Guru Maharaj Ji. I felt I had done the right thing. I was very aware that if Jagdeo did this over the span of two years to several children in Miami, that it was likely he did this wherever he went to many children. But I also felt that, in telling Randy, I was giving you the information you needed to stop him. Later, I saw that Jagdeo seemed to be still traveling as an initiator. I even saw him in the entrance to a darshan tunnel. It was very disturbing to see a child molester as one of the people greeting people as they came in. I hoped that maybe you had a guard on him. Now, a few years later, when I thought about what I had seen, Jagdeo in the darshan line tunnel, Jagdeo at festivals, the idea that he had a 24-hour guard seemed ludicrous. I wondered if perhaps Randy had never told you as he said he had. Perhaps, he had downplayed the seriousness of it. One day I was watching a talk show and the topic was child sexual abuse and pedophiles. It was emphasized that these people never get better. Of course, I thought about Jagdeo. At that point, I decided to tell my story again. I knew of Judy Osborne through some premie friends. I was very involved in natural childbirth education and knew Judy was Marolyn’s midwife. I thought perhaps a woman, and a midwife, would understand how serious this was. I do not remember if I called her or wrote her, but somehow I got a message through to her to call me. She did, and I told her the story. I want to emphasize that I did not tell her I had ever told Randy, or anyone, about Jagdeo before. I did this because I wanted the issue presented to you again. I thought maybe with all the publicity about pedophiles, the seriousness of this situation would be recognized. Judy was very respectful and caring. I felt she did understand that this was important. She called me back about a week later and said that she told you, and that you had heard about this before, and was glad it was “not a new incident.“ How did I feel? One thing I felt was guilt for not trusting Randy. Obviously, Randy had indeed relayed my story to you. I said to Judy, “Yes, I had told Randy years ago when it had happened, but I thought he must not have told you as nothing was done that I could tell.” Judy seemed a little annoyed that I had not told her about telling Randy. She said, “Randy is a good guy, of course he would have told Maharaj Ji”. I felt it was out of my hands. I do not know if I considered telling the police at that time. By now, I had two small children, no means of supporting myself, and a husband who worked at DECA. I also still could not imagine why you would not do something about Jagdeo, if only to protect yourself. Frankly, I still do not understand that. Over a decade later, I was remarried and living happily in California. I had not thought much about you or premies for many years. But, when I got online and discovered the wonders of a search engine, I thought, “hmm….whatever happened to the Guru….” and I found “Ex premie org.” When I relayed what had happened regarding Jagdeo, I was quickly put in touch with another victim, Abi. Abi lived in England when she was molested by Jagdeo much worse than I was. My worst fears about him were true; it was one thing to suspect he molested children all over the globe, now I knew it. This was very upsetting to me. Given this background, I’m sure you will understand why I feel insulted by the statement on your website that you have contacted the two victims who refuse to speak to you. To make matters worse, Glen Whitaker’s insulting letter denies that I ever reported this before when indeed I have reported it twice. So why on earth am I writing to you now? Frankly, I have grave doubts that this letter will effect any change whatsoever. But, I do care, very much, that wherever Jagdeo is, children are in danger. I do want to do what is right and I do not trust your organization at all. Frankly, I do not trust you either. I have many bitter feelings; both about how the issue of Jagdeo was handled and about the years I spent worshipping you. Mr. Dettmers, whom I have found to be a very honorable man, states that how the matter of Jagdeo was handled was uncharacteristic of your response to other similar events of sexual misconduct among the Mahatmas. Even as a rank and file 'premie” I had heard stories which support this statement. If there is some possibility that my reporting this again will this time lead to a response which can allow me some closure on this issue, I would welcome that. I would appreciate it if you would kindly acknowledge that you have received and read this letter. Because I have continued wariness and mistrust of your organization, I am hesitant to invite you or your representatives to call or write me directly. If you would contact Mr. Dettmers with your response I would be more comfortable with that. If you have, however, any questions about this matter, which I can answer, I certainly would consider making myself available to answer them. It would be very necessary though, if this were to occur, that I protect myself from further instances of an inability on your organization’s part to remember what I have reported. Sincerely, Susan Haupt Michael’s cover letter to Rawat July 25, 2000 Dear Maharaji, I am writing to you because I believe you would want to be informed about the situation that is explained fully in the attached letter from Susan Haupt. She was prompted to write to you following a recent statement on Élan Vital’s website under the heading “FAQ.” Specifically, she is writing to you about Élan Vital’s response to the question, “Has Élan Vital covered up alleged past improper behavior?” She, quite correctly in my opinion, takes issue with Élan Vital’s answer to that rhetorical question and wishes to make one final effort to set the record straight about a very serious allegation she has made repeatedly in the past about improper behavior by Jagdeo. She is qualified to do so because she was, at the time, a teenage victim of his sexual abuse. Maharaji, I did not know Susan at the time the incident occurred, but I have since come to know her as a sincere person of integrity. I am confident that she is telling the truth. Her only motive in bringing this situation to your attention is to provide you with the information necessary for you to look into her allegation and take appropriate action. I have assured Susan that it was my personal experience that, whenever Maharaji became aware of improper sexual behavior by any of his instructors, he took immediate disciplinary action. Thus, I am at a loss to explain why her previous efforts to bring this situation to your attention seem to have failed. My perplexity is compounded by Élan Vital’s official response to this matter. Nevertheless, as Élan Vital has chosen to make this matter an issue, I feel no compunction about bringing this matter to your personal attention. I am confident that you will do what is necessary to ensure that it is properly addressed. Sincerely, Michael Dettmers About a week after this letter was delivered, Michael received the following fax from Marcia Leitner: Fax from Marcia Leitner August 2, 2000 Dear Mr. Dettmers: Your letter to Maharaji dated July 25, 2000 and the letter you enclosed from Susan Haupt were forwarded to the Board of Directors of Élan Vital. I am a member of the Board of Directors of Élan Vital and I am also working with Élan Vital in the human resources area. I have been asked by Élan Vital’s Board to review the issues raised in Susan’s letter. I will be contacting you next week to discuss this matter with you further. Your assistance is greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Marcia Leitner Marcia Leitner’s phone call with Michael Dettmers When Michael spoke to Ms. Leitner she was professional and friendly. But, some of what she had to say was very disturbing to me, though I expected it. She stated that Randy Prouty and Judy Osborne “did not recall” the conversations I relayed in my letter. She stated that Rawat “had not heard” of my reports. She added that my letter was the first official complaint EV had received by one of Jagdeo’s alleged victims. They had heard of the allegations during the past year “from two other sources, but not from the alleged victims themselves”, hence, their official response on their website. She wanted Michael to assure me that Maharaji and Élan Vital do not condone the behavior I reported. She made it clear that Jagdeo is no longer serving in any capacity within Élan Vital throughout the world, that he in now in his late 70’s, in poor health, and living in a village in Bihar, India. Finally, she wanted to know if I would like to speak with her and if so, would Michael arrange it. I considered meeting with Marcia, but ultimately I decided against this. I did not think I would gain anything by meeting with her, or any EV person, other than some satisfaction when they realized how credible what I am saying is. I did however, say that I would meet with them to answer any questions, if they have any, but this meeting would have to take place with a witness, for the obvious reason that no one can now recall the times I have reported what I knew about Jagdeo in the past. Élan Vital’s Letter to Me August 31, 2000 Dear Susan, Your letter to Maharaji of July 9, 2000 was forwarded to the Board of Directors of Élan Vital for response. Thank you for bringing this matter concerning Jagdeo to our attention. The type of behavior described in your letter is completely unacceptable to Élan Vital and will not be tolerated. I understand that Michael Dettmers has passed on to you the fact that Jagdeo is no longer associated in any capacity with Élan Vital organizations worldwide. He has not performed any duties as an instructor in the United States since the 1980’s. He is now retired and living in a village in India. Thank you again for bringing this matter to our attention. If I can be of further assistance to you, please feel free to contact me. Sincerely, Marcia Leitner Élan Vital Board of Directors As some of you have already noted, Élan Vital has since removed the offensive FAQ from their website. How do I feel about all this? I am upset that the reports I made in the past have been “forgotten”. I still believe Rawat was told both in 1977 and in the early eighties. I think there has been a decision not to remember. I do not know how many people were involved in deciding that a response to “not recall” was the best one. I am glad though that the FAQ has been removed and that at least this report has been acknowledged without including any gratuitous insults. Of course, there is much they should say that they have not, but most of what they should say would leave them open to liability if they said it. It was carefully worded. Thanks to all the ex premie org posters who were supportive of me when the FAQ was first published. There are so many really good nice people who post here. As Abi once said to me, we have won, because we figured out we were in a cult, and we got out. Susan Haupt

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 15:10:24 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: all Subject: thanks to all Message:

all of your posts of support mean a lot to me. It was an intimidating proccess. It is important to remember that the other survivors of Jagdeo were hurt much more than I was. I think too that kids who grew up in the cult really were the ones hurt worst by it. One shared with me recently that her dirt poor parents inherited property and immediately gave it to the guru. What kind of person takes gifts such as this. But obviously, being molested by one of the Guru's mahatmas was one of the worst ways a child of the cult could be hurt. Kids had no real choice about whether to join the cult. They were taught to believe in Rawat the way the rest of us were taught to believe in God. And when Jagdeo picked these kids as his special students, the parents were honored. What a horrible horrible trap.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 09:58:18 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Susan Subject: Rawat, EV and the Paedophile Message:

Bravo Susan, And credit to Michael for following this up. This is another poke to get them to face up to their responsibilities. As usual, they are begrudgingly making some of the right noises, but doing absolutely nothing. As Jean-Michel said, Jagdeo was sitting with the mahatmas in 1996 and it looks like, inspite of their knowledge of what he was up to, he has always been allowed to roam free and do his worst. This nasty business is not going to go away. I've been in communication with someone from Unity School Denver, and it looks like Jagdeo may have been up to his tricks there too. There was the cult enquiry in the UK that Ron Jeaves told Jethro about. The cult deny they had an enquiry, but Ron indicated that the results incriminated Jagdeo even more. I've also been in touch with someone from the States who told me that in the 70s, someone doing 'security service' was given the job of 'Watching Jagdeo'. They were told never to take their eyes of him for a minute, but weren't told why. The more grubs come out of the woodwork, the more it looks like they've been covering up and protecting him for years. It stinks Susan, and you and Abi have my deep respect for standing up to the creeps. Jagdeo should be hung by his balls from a lampost outside the Harrowgate Conference Centre. Take care, Anth

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 08:06:32 (GMT) From: abi Email: None To: AJW Subject: Rawat, EV and the Paedophile Message:

Hi Anth, thanks for your support during all of this. You've healped us heal.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 07:55:11 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Susan Subject: That's not enough for me! Message:

What EV and Rawat won't admit is that Jagdeo has been an active Mahatma up to the late 90s ! Maybe he hasn't been in the US since the 80s, but what about the other places ? I saw him myself come and sit with the mahatmas at Santyogashram in spring 1996, and he was not looking like being in a bad health condition at that time. That means he's been travelling in many places and very likely more crimes happened. What did they do about it, and what are they doing about it ? THAT IS A SHAME !!!!!!! Thank you for posting all this.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 15:30:19 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: That's not enough for me! Message:

'has not performed any duties as an instructor in the United States since the early eighties' That was a carefully worded letter wasn't it?

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 15:44:50 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Susan Subject: Exactly! They're still fucking bastards! Message:

No doubt when you read this!

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 02:22:09 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Jean-Michel Subject: Crafted double-speak and vagueness Message:

It would appear that the response from Élan Vital is a work of Public Relations people with guidance of practised attorneys. I understand that Michael Dettmers has passed on to you the fact that Jagdeo is no longer associated in any capacity with Élan Vital organizations worldwide. He has not performed any duties as an instructor in the United States since the 1980’s. He is now retired and living in a village in India. 1. No longer associated in any capacity Again, I ask how is Jagdeo financially supported in his retirement in some village in India? Is this money from Maharaji or some of Maharaji's benefactors? Or did Maharaji issue instructions to have Jagdeo taken care of on property owned and operated by Maharaji or Elan Vital? This is a bunch of crap! I would bet anything that Jagdeo is still being harbored by Maharaji and Elan Vital and, ultimately on donations from current and decent premies. 2. He has not performed any duties as an instructor in the United States since the 1980’s. Ok, exactly when is the 1980's? Are we talking 1980, 1981 or are we talking 1988 or 1989? Can you be less vague with what should be a precise date within a year or so? And, of course, as J-M pointed out the restrictive clause of 'in the United States'. Come on! Do you, Elan Vital and Rawat, think you are still dealing with naive young people who readily and willingly buy any crap you dole out?

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 03:26:38 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroyudiciwuec To: Roger eDrek Subject: Freudian slip? Message:

donations from current and decent premies Ok, I'm sure they exist - I even used to be one - but did you mean to say 'recent' but the heart slipped back into its bad old ways..?

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:32:49 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Nigel Subject: No, I think that most premies are decent Message:

As a relatively recent-ex I have some fond memories of some really nice and decent premies. And some of the more seasoned veterans were even a bit honest about all the hype. Then again, those premie scenes at programs could be the best and the worst of times. Premies can be the strangest people on the planet, that's fer sure. You can know somebody for twenty or thirty years and they will completely ignore you at a brainwash program. I think that we are in X-Land been over-exposed and abused by a couple dozen or so of the most borific hardcore dyed in the wool premies. Not all of 'em are like some damn fungus, a cranky weasel, a cartoony hound dog, or whatever, whatever, whatever...

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:40:47 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Roger eDrek Subject: Yeah, and the point is that their money is... Message:

their money is probably going to pay for Jagdeo's upscale upkeep at some Maharaji owned ashram or something like that in India. I think that if premies, who are constantly being asked for more and more money, knew the truth about Jagdeo and the possibility that he was given free reign to commit his crimes across the planet on premie donated money that they'd be quite disappointed and most likely sickened and angry at the entire deception. Unless Jagdeo had something on Maharaji, Maharaji should have zapped him with lightning if Maharaji was who he said he was. Otherwise, Maharaji could have at the very least sent this creep back to India and severed all ties completely. But no! Maharaji did not do that, did he? Maharaji let Jagdeo continue, but allowed him to do it discreetly outside of the U.S. since sometime in the 1980's. Yeah, isn't Maharaji so considerate and compassionate? Fucking playing a part in taking away a child's innocence. Shame, Maharaji! Shame on you, you big fat lazy spoiled selfish creep. You let those monsters roam the free world and you didn't do anything about it other than sweep it under the rug because it would affect your bottom line?

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 02:27:07 (GMT) From: Know It All Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Crafted double-speak and vagueness Message:

Oh, I am an expert in this kind of language. Don't underestimate my powers of perception! KIA

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 05:36:32 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Susan Subject: my letter to Rawat and EV's response Message:

Susan: Thanks. I can't figure out why he never did anything about it in the first place, unless: 1. Jagdeo had something on him; or 2. he was too drugged up or drunk to care. Beyond that it's a mystery. Certainly not the behavior of anyone with any capacity for leadership. --Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 04:12:17 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: Susan Subject: This guy us a dwork. Message:

If I was a bee, I'd sting him.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 03:04:59 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Susan Subject: The shame of the cult. Message:

Dear Susan, It must have been very painful to have had to dig up all those terrible memories once more, you have my heartfelt respect for doing so. The soul-less and somewhat clinical response you received from Ms Leitner is sadly no more than I would have expected. No doubt this lady is an attorney of some kind? What I do find appalling and utterly inexcusible is that you had no response from Mr Rawat himself, not only to the issue of Jagdeo, but to the underlying relationship which you, like the rest of us, had to him, which directly created the situation in which this kind of child abuse could be committed with impunity. I felt you showed great restraint in not directly accusing him of sharing personal responsibility for the abuse, as well as for the apparant cover up afterwards. You know, it is a clear indication of his priorities when he takes the trouble to send out signed photographs of himself and 'thank you' cards to people who donate the most meager amounts of money, yet cannot take the trouble to write you a simple short note, offering at least sympathy, if not an apology. Is this man even human? Shame on you maharaji, shame on you Elan Vital Board of Directors and shame on every self-righteous premie who invades this forum with their cynical, elitist superiority. God I'm pissed!

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 04:15:59 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Jim/Marianne Subject: ps to Jim, Marianne et al Message:

The soul-less and somewhat clinical response you received from Ms Leitner is sadly no more than I would have expected. No doubt this lady is an attorney of some kind? Yikes! Apologies to you to and other lawyers reading. Wasn't meant as a general criticism of your ilk, she just sounded so detached and bent on neither admitting or denying anything on behalf of her 'client'.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 02:57:33 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Susan Subject: The whole thing makes me.. Message:

SICK!!! You can better believe M knew and probably Durga Ji! Why isn't he extradated?(sp?) Jagedo that is. My hat is off to you Susan. What a wonderful soul you turned out to be in spite of it all. Blessings to you. Love, Tonette.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 02:13:40 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Susan Subject: Excellent Ex-manship! Message:

Ah, the art of addressing the former Lord of the Universe! Good work, Susan. I'm sure EV's letter to you finally helped you get some good closure on this frustrating and confusing memory you've harboured. Have you thought of sending Marcia some flowers?

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 03:03:53 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Jim Subject: This isn't closure Message:

This is a truth come to light! EV hasn't done anything to right a wrong! If EV was crediable they would investigate this further and find out whether or not Jagedo did anymore rape of young girls. For that matter if M wasn't evil he would make this his own personal issue. For that matter M and Marolyn and the whole lot would crusade to make a wrong right. But it seems to be awfully quiet from that side. However this should not go away.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 22:31:14 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Susan Subject: thanks Susan Message:

That was very brave.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 23:15:05 (GMT) From: Yves' away Email: None To: Selene Subject: Speechless Message:

Your post inspires respect and it certainly is the result of a long journey... but with sincere respect to Selene, I object to calling it 'brave'. You did what you had to do. With dignity. There is nothing brave about it because there is nothing to fear from Rawat and friends. This being said with sincere respect and I know when faced with such a moving post we are left speechless and tend to say non-sensical things like this. Please don't take it wrong Selene. I always hoped when faced with adversity, I'd act as human as possible. For instance in his situation, if I were Rawat, I'd come down and give it all back to the indians as if I were in a Cole Porter song. If I were Micheal Dettmers, I'd feed information just as 'Deep-throat' did to Bernstein and Woodward. (Nudge-nudge. Wink-wink. Say-no-more, say-no-more.)

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 23:45:15 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Yves' away Subject: I don't take it wrong Yves Message:

I agree and had tought about my choice of words later after I posted and i appreciate your view, you said it better. Still I find it admirable to stand up for what one believes in to the degree that Susan did. If I don't respond or post for a while, it's cause I'm outta here soon for a week or so and not planning on logging in much. Thanks.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 04:03:51 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: Selene Subject: I get everything but respect Message:

This is so touching. So touching. I don't get anything but respect. Susan. Selene. I don't want to argue with aanyone. Wharwvwe you say. You're right.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 04:59:26 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Yves Subject: huh? Message:

ok... whatever!! I'll just repeat myself. Thanks Susan.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 14:16:05 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: Selene Subject: You're. I didn't make sense Message:

Whatever. I guess my brains went to sleep before I did.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 11:50:51 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Yves Subject: I think Brave is the right word Message:

And if you want to know why, it is simple. How many people, premies or not will come in out in public, say their full name and talk about being molisted, rapped or others. This is not emotional. It is not a judgment. Susan is brave to do it, so stop being nice to each other because you got nothing else to do while waiting for you eggs to boil. Got it. She is brave.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 21:36:03 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Susan Subject: EV possibly concealing a significant fact Message:

Jagdeo is no longer associated in any capacity with Élan Vital organizations worldwide. He has not performed any duties as an instructor in the United States since the 1980’s. He is now retired and living in a village in India. So says Marcia Leitner, Élan Vital Board of Directors. Hmmm, and specifically in small village in or near Bihar. I wonder why Ms. Leitner knows so much about Jagdeo. Why? Probably because Élan Vital is sending monthly 'retirement' checks for the care and feeding of this freakshow that was allowed to roam the globe on Premie contributions and Ashram resident slave dollars. Marcia Leitner, can you provide us with a phone number for Mr. Jagdeo?

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 20:48:13 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Susan Subject: my letter to Rawat and EV's response Message:

Hi Susan - You are SO courageous for doing this. And I am sorry that you got such a non-response, although at least this time you did get a formal response, of a sort. By the way, to EV: 'he doesn't work here anymore' is not a good answer. Love to you, Susan - Katie

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:04:52 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Katie Subject: ditto: everything Katie said -nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 20:27:27 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Susan Subject: quote 'not a new incident' endquote Message:

Even if it happened a hundred years ago, that's no reason to dismiss it. Bravo to you for coming forward with this. (BTW, only today, I read in a British newspaper that Scotland Yard is taking seriously reports that Arthur Conan Doyle might have been responsible for the murder of the man who originally wrote the story that he (ACD) based 'Hound of the Baskervilles' on.) Just because it happened in the (semi) distant past is no reason to consider any less of a crime. Kudos to you for posting about this issue.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 20:20:36 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Susan Subject: my letter to Rawat and EV's response Message:

Thanks Susan, both for your courage in following through with this course of action and posting the exchange of letters. I can't help thinking that by (a) pointing out that Jagdeo is no longer in active service and (b) Randy and Judy have lost their memories, EV are not merely distancing themselves from the whole business, but have washed their hands of it. I also can't help wondering in what - if any - ways, any of the main protagonists (Randy, Judy, M) would be behaving any differently now even if they HAD passed on your warning to Maharaji at the time..? (It's not as if anybody in a cult is going to say 'Yes I told Maharaji, but he preferred to ignore it, hoping it would all just go away') Anyway, Susan, I hope your actions DO finally ensure Jagdeo is prevented from abusing again. At least interested parties now know where the scumbag lives. (Would the Indian police be interested? - I'm sure the press would! M's big brother was a government minister there until recently, remember...) Thanks again, Nigel

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 22:56:15 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Nigel Subject: his big brother Message:

Maybe his big brother would be interested in this.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 02:22:03 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: G Subject: That's a great idea -- send it to Satpal Message:

Hey, why not send EVERYTHING to Satpal? Seriously. What could bug Maharaji more than that?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 21:17:21 (GMT) From: xxordinaire Email: None To: Jim Subject: That's a great idea -- send it to Satpal Message:

testing

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 12:02:41 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: That's a great idea -- send it to Satpal Message:

I am sure that Satpal in his great wisdom monitors this site also, don't you bigmmustache?

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 20:14:17 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Susan Subject: Great Courage, Susan Message:

Susan, I know it wasn't easy for you to re-hash these unpleasant memories, and it must be very demoralizing to get a response, or should I say, stonewall, from Elan Vital and Maharaji. It's clear they aren't interested in stopping Jagdeo or helping the victims. They only want to protect Maharaji from liability, because he obviously knew about Jagdeo in 1977 and did nothing about it. I think Marcia Leitner's letter is especially infuriating. Marcia is someone I knew in the cult, and I always thought she was basically a decent person. Marcia, if you read this, I have to say I'm really disappointed in you for not showing some shread of humanity here. Is that too much to expect? It looks like like Marcia has climbed to the very pinacle of Elan Vital, that decent and ethical organization, the one that is 'appalled' by what Jagdeo did to Susan, Abi and others, and would not 'tolerate' such behavior. Boy, am I relieved! I'm sure they have a written policy about this. ::)) But Marcia's letter sounds like it was written by and for the walking dead. Translation: Dear Susan, In an attempt to say nothing except to cover our asses, and especially, Maharaji's large and rapidly spreading ass, we wish to make a gratuitous comment that we have a policy against sexual molestation of children. Aren't we advanced and progressive to have such a policy? This distinguishes Elan Vital from all those other organizations that condone and promote sexual molestation of children. The other thing we'd like to say is that Jagdeo is in India, and we don't give a flying fuck what he does there or how many other kids he molested, nor do we give a rats ass how many others Jagdeo may have molested while he was an operative of Elan Vital and Maharaji, which was done while Maharaji was claiming to be Perfect Master. Our only concern is to get you to go away and to protect Maharaji from liability. Since Jagdeo is out of the country, we wash our hands of the whole thing. We hope this shuts you up and ends this subject. If not, we feel we have admitted nothing and we have protected Maharaji from implication. We really couldn't care less if you were injured by Jagdeo and we aren't even willing to give you sympathy or condolences, at least not in writing. Sincerely, and Trying to Keep a Straight Face, Marcia Leitner Elan Vital Board of Directors Marcia, how can you look at yourself in the mirror?

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 18:57:15 (GMT) From: P-man Email: None To: Joe Subject: Great Courage, Susan Message:

It occurred to me while I was reading your response, how ethics and morality figured in, when we were practicing knowledge. I don't know if it's the same nowadays, but who can forget... 1. The physical world is pleasure and pain, right and wrong, or 'duality', and that no true freedom or 'liberation is found there. 2. Only by reaching the spiritual world beyond duality can true happiness and bliss be found. Of course, the only way to reach the spiritual world is through Maharaji. Our normal values of virtue and sin were replaced by these values. Anything to help Maharaji was virtuous, and anything that ignored, avoided or denied Maharaji or Knowledge was sinful. Obviously, the party-line has softened and westernized a bit, but most of the big-wigs in Elan Vital are old-timers who probably assimilated the fully-rationalized ethics of the past with the new Knowledge-Lite (which isn't as logically tight). When I think about these aspects of the cult, it's easy to see how cult-members see lying as Truth, and Sin as acceptable. I'd be willing to bet that Jagdeo said to himself, 'Forgive me, Maharaji. Just forgive me this one weakness. After all, I give so much to you and I stay on Holy Name almost all the time.' Maharaji's world is a topsy-turvy circus where lying and cheating aren't as bad as they used to be.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 19:08:45 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: P-man Subject: Good point, the Maharaji is basically AMORAL... Message:

The Maharaji cult does not teach any kind of morals whatsoever. In fact, it's very narcisisstic, focusing on the individual 'experience' and the worship of Maharaji. Maharaji doesn't, and never did, discuss the need to love your neighbor, do good works in the world (except for the extremely brief DUO and WWA proclamations.) Given years and years of amoral teachings and narcissism, it isn't surprising that Marcia Leitner and people like her can write such uncarring and, under the circumstance, immoral things.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 00:55:37 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Joe Subject: 'THE Maharaji' - love it! Message:

It's like when people referred to 'The Maharishi' way back when, when you'd say to the public, 'no, no - not the Beatles' meditation teacher, this is the Lord of the Universe. There is a diffence...' And when you've got the right bloke it isn't 'The Maharaji' - just 'Maharaji', ok? If using the 'the' verbal descriptor means objectifying the cult's one and only love object, I say let's do it. Surely, he is either Prem Rawat, bearer of American citizenship and yacht-mooring permit and accredited relaxation trainer, or 'The Maharaji' - Lord of Creation. The 'the' makes a useful distinction. It sorts the New Age self-help man from the fellah with God on tap... The Maharaji... Like it.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:31:49 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Nigel Subject: The use of articles, the, this and that Message:

As we have all said, the use of 'the' and 'that' by Maharaji and premies creates this kind of aura of specialness without actually saying what is so special about it. In addition to THAT love, THAT knowledge, THAT peace, THAT experience, etc., etc.,I recall that in THE Maharaji cult, even Maharaji's real and personal property rated those articles. All cult members knew exactly what you were referring to when you said: THE residence THE motorhome THE Gulfstream, THE 707, or whatever plane he had at the time THE Austin Martin THE Wadi Sue

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 16:30:05 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Nigel Subject: 'Great King' Message:

Yes, it is surprising to me, in this day of denying he ever said he was god, that the title is still used instead of his given name. It means of course: Great King. A king needs subjects to worship him or he is no longer a king. Changing to his given name would acknowledge that he is not a 'king' and he has not done that...so basically the title itself says he still claims to be the great king. Let's not forget 'Satgurudev' either.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 20:08:26 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Susan Subject: my letter to Rawat and EV's response Message:

Susan, I really respect your courage to pursue this matter as you have done. I hope you reach resolution. I feel awful about the 'forgetting' and also agree with your suspician that you have been deceived. I think I would remember being told something that heavy, despite the years gone by and my failing memory of many things. Accountability is very important. This is getting swept under the rug by the organization, I think. I hope you get a personal apology from Maharaji and Jagdeo. Sometimes when people aren't sure what they should do, they do nothing. Avoidance,ignorance, denial, shame and guilt can be be results of this approach: not pleasant feelings to re-visit for the ones who did nothing; but unavoidable for proper closure for you and for them.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 19:35:00 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Susan Subject: my letter to Rawat and EV's response Message:

Susan, I applaud your courage in speaking out. The reactions of Randy and Judy are very disappointing. How can they live with themselves?

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 19:34:30 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: Susan Subject: Thanks a million for keeping us posted Message:

Jim. I'd like you to break the Trivinanand story now. As agreed, keep the Montréal victim's name secret for now until we get her permission.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 21:18:48 (GMT) From: xxordinaire Email: None To: Yves Subject: Thanks a million for keeping us posted Message:

testing

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 20:04:03 (GMT) From: Yves' being replaced Email: None To: Yves Subject: See the face and buy a plane ticket to bihar Message:

http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/jagdeo.htm

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 19:05:35 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Susan Subject: my letter to Rawat and EV's response Message:

Bless you, my dear be aware that others have recently addressed their serious concerns directly to M. concerning past DLM/EVI problems now posted on the internet Peace

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 17:49:58 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Thanks for Putting up with Message:

my conspiracy line of questioning. I appreciate that it was tedious for some. Thank you for those who responded especially those who tried to supply those early 'western devotee' names (that I am still looking for). I guess I will have to settle for the 'it-was-the-holy-family-running-the-show-and-all-others-were-dupes-and-innocent-and-there-was-no-outside-influence' theory. Maybe the reason it is hard to come up with names of those early western devotees who begged GM to come to the west is because MAYBE THERE WEREN'T ANY!? Maybe it was part of Mata-ji PR? If they existed it sure seems like their names would have been 'canonized' in the lore/myth of those early DLM days. I am going to try to check on any military or government backgrounds on the names that you gave me. And I am open to any suggestions on how to go about that.I'll surely let you know if I find anything of interest. Until then I will consider my questioning of you- case closed. (Unless someone comes up with some really hot shit, of course. Thanks ex's for your patience with me.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:29:20 (GMT) From: EddyTheTurtle Email: None To: Everyone Subject: SoHung Message:

I was talking to a friend yesterday. He does not know anything about M or knowldege, and I have not told him anything. The subject turned to So Hung...What he told me was that apparently this is a well known Yoga practice and this 'mantra' is considered in Yoga books to be the most powerfull and the realiest known 'mantra'....

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 06:07:48 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: EddyTheTurtle Subject: SoHung Message:

I was given that mantra years before I got involved with M. It is an ancient one, like most of the Indian mantras. Like Aum Manah Pahdme Hum (or however it is spelled). My opinion: all things are as good as any others. It is the devotion, concentration, intent/motivation and focus of YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS that YOU bring to something that gives it ANY power. Knitting can be good I am told.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 06:51:51 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: ExTex Subject: Very True nt Message:

0

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 17:10:42 (GMT) From: So well hung Email: None To: EddyTheTurtle Subject: realiest? you mean earliest? (nt) Message:

eyu

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 17:11:57 (GMT) From: EddyTheTurtle Email: None To: So well hung Subject: dont get hung up Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 18:27:50 (GMT) From: who flung dung? Email: None To: EddyTheTurtle Subject: dont get hung up - just read this 'objet trouve' Message:

Let's say a guy named Roger is attracted to a woman named Elaine. He asks her out to a movie; she accepts; they have a pretty good time. A few nights later he asks her out to dinner, and again they enjoy themselves. They continue to see each other regularly, and after awhile neither one of them is seeing anybody else. And then, one evening when they're driving home, a thought occurs to Elaine, and, without really thinking, she says it aloud: 'Do you realize that, as of tonight, we've been seeing each other for exactly six months?' And then there is silence in the car. To Elaine, it seems like a very loud silence. She thinks to herself: Gee, I wonder if it bothers him that I said that. Maybe he's been feeling confined by our relationship; maybe he thinks I'm trying to push him into some kind of obligation that he doesn't want, or isn't sure of. And Roger is thinking: Gosh. Six months. And Elaine is thinking: But, hey, I'm not so sure I want this kind of relationship, either. Sometimes I wish I had a little more space, so I'd have time to think about whether I really want us to keep going the way we are, moving steadily toward... I mean, where are we going? Are we just going to keep seeing each other at this level of intimacy? Are we heading toward marriage? Toward children? Toward a lifetime together? Am I ready for that level of commitment? Do I really even know this person? And Roger is thinking: ...so that means it was... let's see. February when we started going out, which was right after I had the car at the dealer's, which means... lemme check the odometer... Whoa! I am way overdue for an oil change here. And Elaine is thinking: He's upset. I can see it on his face. Maybe I'm reading this completely wrong. Maybe he wants more from our relationship, more intimacy, more commitment; maybe he has sensed -- even before I sensed it -- that I was feeling some reservations. Yes, I bet that's it. That's why he's so reluctant to say anything about his own feelings. He's afraid of being rejected. And Roger is thinking: And I'm gonna have them look at the transmission again. I don't care what those morons say; it's still not shifting right. And they better not try to blame it on the cold weather this time. What cold weather? It's 87 degrees out, and this thing is shifting like a garbage truck, and I paid those incompetent thieves $600. And Elaine is thinking: He's angry. And I don't blame him. I'd be angry, too. I feel so guilty, putting him through this, but I can't help the way I feel. I'm just not sure. And Roger is thinking: They'll probably say it's only a 90-day warranty. That's exactly what they're gonna say, the rats. And Elaine is thinking: Maybe I'm just too idealistic, waiting for a knight to come riding up on his white horse, when I'm sitting right next to a perfectly good person, a person I enjoy being with, a person I truly do care about, a person who seems to truly care about me. A person who is in pain because of my self-centered, schoolgirl romantic fantasy. And Roger is thinking: Warranty? They want a warranty? I'll give them a warranty. I'll take their warranty and stick it right up their.... 'Roger,' Elaine says aloud. 'What?' says Roger, startled. 'Please don't torture yourself like this,' she says, her eyes beginning to brim with tears. 'Maybe I should never have... I feel so...' (She breaks down, sobbing.) 'What?' says Roger. 'I'm such a fool,' Elaine sobs. 'I mean, I know there's no knight. I really know that. It's silly. There's no knight, and there's no horse.' 'There's no horse?' says Roger. 'You think I'm a fool, don't you?' Elaine says. 'No!' says Roger, glad to finally know the correct answer. 'It's just that... It's that I... I need some time,' Elaine says. (There is a 15-second pause while Roger, thinking as fast as he can, tries to come up with a safe response. Finally he comes up with one that he thinks might work.) 'Yes,' he says. Elaine, deeply moved, touches his hand. 'Oh, Roger, do you really feel that way?' she says. 'What way?' says Roger. 'That way about time,' says Elaine. 'Oh,' says Roger. 'Yes.' (Elaine turns to face him and gazes deeply into his eyes, causing him to become very nervous about what she might say next, especially if it involves a horse. At last she speaks.) 'Thank you, Roger,' she says. 'Thank you,' says Roger. Then he takes her home, and she lies on her bed. A conflicted, tortured soul, and weeps until dawn, whereas when Roger gets back to his place, he opens a bag of Doritos, turns on the TV, and immediately becomes deeply involved in a rerun of a tennis match between two Czechs he never heard of. A tiny voice in the far recesses of his mind tells him that something major was going on back there in the car, but he is pretty sure there is no way he would ever understand what, and so he figures it's better if he doesn't think about it. (This is also Roger's policy regarding world hunger.) The next day Elaine will call her closest friend, or perhaps two of them, and they will talk about this situation for six straight hours. In painstaking detail, they will analyze everything she said and everything he said, going over it time and time again, exploring every word, expression, and gesture for nuances of meaning, considering every possible ramification. They will continue to discuss this subject, off and on, for weeks, maybe months, never reaching any definite conclusions, but never getting bored with it, either. Meanwhile, Roger, while playing racquetball one day with a mutual friend of his and Elaine's, will pause just before serving, frown, and say: 'Norm, did Elaine ever own a horse?'

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:40:52 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: who flung dung? Subject: Wondered when the trolls would show up. Message:

Off topic posts are one thing, but 'bait' is another. Careful folks, this looks like 'tactical syntax' to me. Sure is provocative though, isn't it? I suspect we'll see a little interplay between Elaine and her far flung dung here, if we're patient. --Scott Good thing this is a moderated forum. Hope the defenses are in order.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:10:57 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: who flung dung? Subject: My God, that was classic Message:

You know exactly the male and female mind. Please, write more often.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 07:00:03 (GMT) From: carol Email: None To: Elaine Subject: he just replaced the names/it circulated the net Message:

as an email forward. no major creativity here, just a bit of editing.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 16:38:32 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: carol Subject: he just replaced the names/it circulated the net Message:

Hi Carol, Oh, well I still hope there's more of that kind of stuff - I repeated it paraphrased to a couple people and they also laughed and laughed. Love, Elaine

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:12:02 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Elaine Subject: How'd you know I was a he? Message:

Go to http://looop.net/funnies Type the word 'horse' in the search window. Then scroll down to 'About guys being dense'. It's all there. Word for word. No name changes. (There's some other goodies there too)

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 14:11:56 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Elaine Subject: fuck you Elaine, you dope Message:

it was a cut and paste job, totally OT and you want more of this crap? Beat it, you and dungy don't belong here.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 18:12:58 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: gerry Subject: Missed you, gerry. Glad you're back. (nt) Message:

foo

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 15:49:22 (GMT) From: Why Email: None To: gerry Subject: don't you take your angst Message:

out on the women in your life who pussy whip you? ;-)

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 15:57:29 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Why Subject: Dear gutless, anonymous 'why' Message:

Why don't you go fuck yourself. And angst is a pretty big word for an anonymous gutless coward. You sure you understand what it means?

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 16:58:44 (GMT) From: OK I confess.. Email: gerry@noway.com To: anonymous gutless one Subject: I'm seriously pussy-whipped. Message:

and I love it. Dominatrix Mistress Patty has so soured me on other women I just can't keep myself from saying 'fuck you' to Elaine. And I must confess I didn't read the ballad of Roger and Elaine all the way through the first time. So I reread the whole thing just for you. Now that I've gotten that off my chest, I must say I think I've read this brilliant piece of social satire some place else. Perhaps not. But besides being a distraction and pulling the discussion off topic into meaningless inanity, it's not even funny. It's stale, hackneyed, promotes the same old tired sexual stereotypes and as such is an insult to both men and women, IMO. But it's not REALLY that big of a deal to me. I mean, I'M not that insulted. Sheesh, for gosh sake, who really gives a shit about proper attribution on the internet, right? I'm not surprised that Elaine laps this pablum up (she is a gooberite after all) and of, course she wants more. It's just SO insightful and SO right on. Hits the nail on the head. It really tells it the way it is, just like goobers inpiring sats, er, 'speeches' share his hard earned, deep, spiritual wisdom. You have a nice day now :)

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 07:06:43 (GMT) From: carol Email: None To: OK I confess.. Subject: I'm seriously pussy-whipped. Message:

Trouble with this kind of communication is you can't tell when someone is joking or serious. I assumed Elaine was joking about actually liking the obvious sterotype. Someone else thinks she's serious and more insults follow.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:05:36 (GMT) From: Wish Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Therapy? Tai Chi? Yoga? Message:

I feel like I need something to put me back together after going through a rough childhood and a long cult experience. What happens in a therapy? Do I have to answer a million questions, and the therapist just listens and sympatizes. I hate answering questions, and relating my whole childhood and cult experience isn't something I feel like doing. What about Tai Chi? Yoga? Am more attracted to self-help techniques than relying on some group or therapist. Wish is a good nickname for me, as in I wish I had made different decisions in my life!

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 07:32:06 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Wish Subject: Therapy? Tai Chi? Yoga? Message:

Do the same things you would do for yourself if recovering from a failed marriage or relationship. It has very similar dynamics. Take good care of your health,including for sure something physical you like to do: dance, play, stretch, strengthen, move! Do simple things you enjoy. (Watch a cat or dog enjoy it's life!) Be around positive people who don't demand you believe like them. Do something for someone else, if you have the energy and time. Remember that you deserve to be loved and you can give that love to yourself, as if you were your own child. Stop all negative self-talk in its tracks and replace it with a positve thought, even if all you can think of to be grateful for is change! (I am so grateful for change because you can depend on it!) Allow yourself to grieve a bit at a time then move to something life-giving. Resist the urge to hate. Express anger but don't hold it long: There is a Chinese saying that the hot coal you pick up to throw at your enemy burns you. Thanks for reminding me what I need to do now, too, after getting through another loop of leaving! carol

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:35:36 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Wish Subject: two weeks at the beach with a family friend Message:

If it is possible, some time living by the ocean is very therapeutic, but take a friend, preferably one who has known you from before as well as during your cult years. I have learnt to seek help from my fellow human beings when I need it, and feel enriched by the learning. Lesley

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 03:23:10 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Wish Subject: Addendum Message:

Part of the reason you got sucked into this abyss in the first place was because of your issues. Well those issues didn't go away just because you awoke to the fraud of the cult. A good therapist is one who gets YOU to ask the questions. Deal with yourself and continue. You'll find out that you are the best you have ever been!!!!

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 03:17:18 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Wish Subject: A good friend Message:

A good friend or loved one can do all that or more. Initially you will feel disoriented and confused. All normal. If you don't have family, lover or others then, you SHOULD get some exit counseling. Or if the close people to you aren't making it for you seek a good therapist. Don't be afraid to try more than one if the first professional doesn't work out for you. Stay in touch! Good luck you can do it! Not always helpful but you can always come here.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:11:29 (GMT) From: buzz Email: None To: Wish Subject: Therapy? Tai Chi? Yoga? Message:

books by mantak chia on chi gung are good and work on body mind and spirit he teaches you to be self dependent. the ciculation of the chi is circular with the chinese teachings so tend to be more balanced than the indian system of all energy in the head chakras. regards buzz

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:23:49 (GMT) From: RobertB Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com To: wish Subject: Therapy? Tai Chi? Yoga? Message:

Something you have never heard from from Maharaji/EV - 1. Take a kid to a ball game 2. Call a nephew and take 'em fishing 3. Get a pen-pal from 3rd world nation 4. Join environmental group 5. Join NRA ... (By the way, I'm still nuts after all these years - but I'm also too busy to be especially worried about it)

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 09:04:03 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: RobertB Subject: You forgot one Message:

Love your wife!!!!!!

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 15:38:46 (GMT) From: Q Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Do any of you still believe in Awakening Message:

or whatever you choose to call it? What actual, positive understandings (if any) do you retain from your encounters with M?

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 04:55:10 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Q Subject: Do any of you still believe in Santa Claus? (nt) Message:

fffff

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 05:47:24 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Q Subject: Do any of you still believe in Awakening Message:

Awakening? Do you mean epiphany? Hightened awareness? Compassion? Feeling totally connected to the entire vast cosmos? Understanding new things about myself, about life? Etc etc etc I believe that I have EXPERIENCED these things and hope to experience them again. When have I experienced these things? SOMETIMES while high on LSD, SOMETIMES while fucking, SOMETIMES during meditation (not JUST with the K techniques, either), SOMETIMES during and after great physical workouts, SOMETIMES listening to brilliant music, SOMETIMES when I am out of the city and in nature, SOMETIMES staring off of this planet into outerspace at night and SOMETIMES when I am in love. But as with M's K it is only SOMETIMES. And M has no corner on the way these experiences come about. IT IS JUST THE EXPERIENCE OF LIFE! What actual positive understandings do I retain from my encounters with M? Except for kissing his feet, like most who THINK that they have had encounters with M....I have NOT had any. I have been in huge emotionally EXPECTANT gatherings of people while M spoke. Most of the time I/we read HEAVY THINGS into the banal, trite, hackneyed, and repetitive sloganeering that he droned on about. I did have wonderful deep learning and sharing experiences with the people that I hung out with and experienced a lot of love too. But we made the mistake of giving the credit to M instead of embracing the beauty and wonder of WHO WE WERE. We negated our own experience (ULTIMATE LOW SELF ESTEEM) and contributed our experience to someone that not only was outside ourselves but that we did not know nor had we ever really met! M! Those experiences kept me mistakenly hanging onto M so that HE WOULD GIVE ME MORE! IDIOTIC! EMBARRASSINGLY STUPID! Well, yes it was also the lure of some of that elusive premmie pussy.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 15:02:16 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: ExTex Subject: Thanks, ExTex, great post (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 03:25:34 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Q Subject: What in the hell are you talking about? nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:21:05 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Q Subject: Do any of you still believe in Awakening Message:

Positive understandings: Discipline reaps fruits. Diligence has rewards. Sitting in silence is peaceful. Peaceful is where it's at. Peace is indeed from inside. Love is indeed from inside. Wisdom is from inside. Everything outside changes. The real stuff is inside. The heart is the important thing. 'Happiness is confidence.'- GMJ Protect the candle in your heart. You've probably had enough... Elaine

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 02:02:16 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Elaine Subject: I hope you didn't actually pay for that, Elaine Message:

Positive understandings: Discipline reaps fruits. Banal. Who'd disagree with that? Diligence has rewards. Ditto. Sitting in silence is peaceful. Trite by definition. Peaceful is where it's at. Vague, sometimes not true (like at a aprty, let's say) and otherwise trite. Peace is indeed from inside. Meaningless and, to the extent that it's based on some sort of new-age or religious idea, false anyway. Love is indeed from inside. Well, love's an emotion and they only exist in brains so I guess that's true to that extent. But talk about an empty expression? What does it mean? Nothing. Wisdom is from inside. To the extent that this means anything at all, bullshit. Everything outside changes. Depends on the time frame. And the point is ....? The real stuff is inside. Vague and bullshit. The heart is the important thing. How about the brain? The foot? The breasts? 'Happiness is confidence.'- GMJ Stupid fridge magnet. Protect the candle in your heart. You actually like this shit????? You've probably had enough... I agree!

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:49:42 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Whazzup? Message:

Elaine: I thought you were neither a premie nor an ex according to your statement in a thread above? So you're an aspirant? What? Just trolling looking for a little idle entertainment? --Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 16:54:03 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Whazzup? Message:

Scott T., Thought I'd seen your name around for awhile - I'm surprised you don't know more about me. Rec'd Kn in '73. Found this site while learning alittle about computers and punched in 'Maharaji' - also punched in 'MarthaStewart .com' ;). Being the gossipy person I am and also intrigued by other opinions about anything - I immediatley 'logged' on,clicked on,whatever. I haven't been a 'good' premie for many years. I call myself basically a crappy premie. I agree with many things said here about EV or M. I even have a gopi friend that has now taken down all her pictures of M - after only telling her about stuff I've read here - like three times that we've talked - she's in Hawaii and I'm in the Southwest/West in US. I don't have a strong stand on M - and could care less if people post me about loving or hating M. You'll see that some here can't stand me and some like me just fine. I love meditation,period - whatever techniques I may be using. There, that should give you a little more background. Have a good day, Elaine

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:11:41 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Whazzup? Message:

Elaine: Thanks. I tend to meditate when I get anxious. It got programmed somehow, and I can't break the habit. Anyway, I have no problem with the contention that there is something to these meditation techniques. They've been practiced for a long time... long before Maharaji ever heard of them. They could be part of the hard wiring we got in some evolutionary leap, or they may be divine. Hell, for all I know they could be Satanic. --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:11:59 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Whazzup? Message:

Hell, for all I know they could be Satanic Ooooh, THAT could be deliciously intrigueing! Hmmm, SIN! (smirk)

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 19:59:43 (GMT) From: Q Email: None To: all Subject: Just because you know you're asleep... Message:

doesn't mean you will be able to wake yourself up, but its a start. And, yes, Jim there is such a thing as awakening...just ask AJW.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 18:30:16 (GMT) From: Yo. Pick-up the phone Email: None To: Q Subject: Wake-up Message:

Ahhhhhhhhhh.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 17:28:12 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Q Subject: Do any of you still believe in Awakening Message:

Q, You ask two very very different questions. The first one is about believing in something higher. And the second one is about 'positive understandings' in association with Rawat. No.1: believing in Awakening. I feel a need for something that might be called awakening. I still meditate, but not with the four techniques. I do not believe in beliefs. They are unnecessary, and they don't change what is. It's possible to live without beliefs. No.2: positive understandings retained from Rawat. Rawat spouts certain universal truths, common to all traditions. There is only one unique teaching from Mr. Rawat, and that is that he is the master that we should follow. I reject his teaching. I think he is a liar.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 02:47:44 (GMT) From: Han Email: None To: Way Subject: Do any of you still believe in anything... Message:

Dear Way, I'm sure your already contemplating the slight contradiction here,,, 'beliefs are unnecessary,they don't change what is.' Yet you do have strong enough views to call someone a liar. It would seem to me that, if you 'believed' that beliefs matter not, you would not spend so much of your time posting on this website. Just an observation... Han

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 14:43:36 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Han Subject: To Han, on beliefs Message:

Han, Hello again. It's been awhile and I can't remember exactly where we left off. Yes, I am aware of the 'slight contradiction.' But that contradiction is from your point of view. There is no contradiction in my point of view. My assertion was not that 'beliefs matter not.' Yes, they do matter, because people lead their lives according to their beliefs, so they matter a lot. My assertion was that it is possible to live life without beliefs. You don't seem to believe my assertion that it is possible to live without beliefs, and accuse me of believing things about Rawat. But I beg to differ. Believing that Rawat is the Perfect Master is indeed a belief, founded in ignorance and wishful thinking. But saying that he is a liar is based on recognizing that many of his statements are in fact untrue. I don't have beliefs about Rawat. I have no need in my life to believe anything about him. I have washed my hands of him. In Q's original question, he used the words 'belief' and 'understanding' almost as equals. But they are of course far from equals. And then there is your word 'view,' which holds another place on the scale, perhaps halfway between the other two. And I do readily admit to having a certain view of Rawat. One of the problems with human beings (and there are many, yes?) is that they conduct themselves based on blind beliefs. Rawat himself denounces such behavior quite often, saying that people who believe in divine texts are foolish. He admonishes people to have understanding based on experience. Unfortunately, premies are actually in no better position than fundamentalist religious persons - Rawat has simply inserted himself in the place of sacred texts, claiming that he has made a difference. But believing in his teachings, without experience, is no different, no different at all. Now, I have either clarified my original post for you or I have muddled it even further. As for your closing remark about me spending so much time here, you are evidently wondering why I still involve myself with Rawat and Knowledge when I have supposedly washed my hands of it. The answer is quite simple, the issues surrounding Knowledge are, and have always been, of interest to me. Also I might explain that I read this site only when I am at work and have some down time, and, mercifully, I usually forget about the whole thing while I am away from my job. I do have other interests, and several projects. So, Han, what are your beliefs, views, and understandings about Rawat? It might serve you well to distinquish between these three words, and live accordingly. Discrimination, as all the masters have said, is a good thing.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 17:04:19 (GMT) From: Han Email: None To: Way Subject: To Way, on semantics. Message:

Way, I read your post several times,,and then your previous post again,,,, please forgive me, but I am trying to understand your underlying motive for being so active on this site if in fact you have 'washed your hands' of Mr.Rawat. I 'percieve' an underlying event that motivates you. Personally,the business of discerning ones beliefs, views, and understandings, are relative to one thing, Experience. You mention 'believing in his teachings without experience, is like being a fundamentalist. Perhaps this is what happened to you. For me personally, the teachings are the Techniques of Knowledge. Either I choose to experience what is inside of me or I don't. Period. Everything else is subject to change and will. This brings us full circle back to 'Beliefs',,, unless they are founded on 'experience', they are worthless. I 'believe' this is what the Masters mean when they are speaking of Discrimination. It seems evident that although we may enjoy our correspondence,,, and I may have answered my own question here,, Ultimately our experiences are what we live by, I 'believe' Knowledge to be the common denominator of human experiences. You may disagree,,even though you have experienced it. That's how far apart humans remain. One person breathes in air and the other has a different perception of the same breath. I have my answer. Have a great day Way.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 18:53:50 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Han Subject: To Han, a hypothetical test Message:

Han, Let's say that both you and I are given an examination. It is a sheet of paper with several multiple choice questions. We are instructed to answer as honestly as we can muster. No cheating. No false posturing. The questions are all designed to inquire as to our knowledge about God, Perfect Masters, Rawat, the Truth, the changless reality, the soul, meditation, and the like. A sample question: Is Prem Pal Singh Rawat: a. God in human form b. my master c. Just a meditation teacher d. a fraud and a liar e. two of the above f. three of the above g. don't know Now, let us say that God himself grades the tests after we have handed them in. We get points for every correct answer, but points are subtracted for every time we cheat, or answer on blind belief alone. My perception is that you are cheating. Anytime I hear a premie make the statement: 'I have my answer,' I suspect cheating. Anytime I hear a premie make the statement: 'I know that Maharaji is the true Master because of what he has shown me inside,' I suspect cheating. And when you say: 'for me personally, the teachings are the Techniques of Knowledge,' I detect more cheating, because you've left something out: the teachings of Rawat include an insistence that he be acknowledged as the Master without whom the Knowledge does not work, (i.e. God's grace is Maharaji's grace). I do not allow a premie to make up their own personal agenda in regards to Knowledge that differ from Rawat's agenda. A person who does that is no longer a premie. I have a feeling, and it is only an educated guess, that you and I are not so different in our experience of meditation, our experience of the 'changeless', our experience of Mr. Rawat, our experience of human life, etc. We would probably have very similar scores on that hypothetical test. But our scores would be similar only if we answer honestly, and not with beliefs. So, how do answer the sample question that is posed above?

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:28:34 (GMT) From: Steve Email: None To: Q Subject: Do any of you still believe in Awakening Message:

Yes I do, I have had experiences of heightened awareness through different means, including as a premie when being conscious of my breath. I'm not labeling it God consciousness or anything to do with spiritual but a super awakeness to the joy of being alive in the moment will do. There is also for me the awakening to understanding that no-one can do it for me and I can't make it happen at will(Lord knows I tried ). Steve

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 09:39:00 (GMT) From: Plurr Email: None To: Steve Subject: Do any of you still believe in Awakening Message:

it's all just a blur a big burr as in raymond blurr any one know a good pyschologist with current standings.. ?? tell her 2 kiss me goodbi. in the closet w/ schroom homosapien could have been a buddist

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:12:49 (GMT) From: buzz Email: None To: Q Subject: Do any of you still believe in Awakening Message:

very!!

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:07:05 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Q Subject: No (nt) Message:

fffff

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 15:53:03 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Q Subject: The Great Awakening Message:

Hi Q, Q, there is something more than belief, which is 'experience'. I don't 'beleive' in awakening, I 'experience' it. Monday to Friday it usually happens around 7.30 am, and occasionally again around 8.30. It's usually accompanied by an electronic bleeping sound. At the weekends, and on holidays, the bleeping sound is absent and the awakening usually takes place a little later. I hope this answers your question. Anth the Alarmed

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:08:10 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: AJW Subject: That is funny..nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 14:28:02 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Ivory's Rock and the Australian Tourist Center Message:

The Australian Tourist Center at Ipswich presents the Ivory's Rock Conference Center on their website. I do not know if they are already aware that the IRCC is owned by the cult Elan Vital and Maharaji. I requested information about IRCC from the Tourist Center and received an email from them. I answered their email and informed them that the cult Elan Vital is the owner of IRCC. I gave them some information about Maharaji and directed them to the ex-premie website for further information. I let them know my opinion that it would be regretable for some organization to rent out the IRCC without knowing where their money is going. Also, Ivory Rock Conference Center has an email address: IRCC@compuserve.com. I have emailed them the 9 objections letter.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:18:35 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Way Subject: Good work, Way -- I also emailed them Message:

Let me know if you get an answer and I'll do the same. Mine was just a simple inquiry, did they know that the Lord of the Universe was in the area, etc.?

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 14:54:52 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Way Subject: How about Message:

having an ex-premies conference at Amoroo? Now that will be a gas. If they refuse us, we can complain.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 19:23:29 (GMT) From: lotus Eater Email: None To: Salam Subject: funny, funny idea Message:

thanks for the laugh......actually by practising a little deception, we could do it. After breakfast, served to us by premies, we take a leisurely walk to the K Hall, watch the LOTU video, tell a few stories, morning tea on the verandah, served by premies, back in for an inspiring lecture or two, followed by lunch, served by premies, I think a breakup into workshops next to brainstorm ways of exposing the cult, afternoon tea served by premies, and then we can congregate around the fire, tended by a premie and tell darshan stories until dinner is served by premies, a little drunken hilarity for the stalwarts round the fire as the premies clean up and so to bed.....hell, let's make a weekend of it, we could have team building games, you know, going blindfold through a darshan line and guessing who's foot you just kissed!

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 00:00:12 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: lotus Eater Subject: Just don't drink any koolaid served by premies! NT Message:

Remember Jonestown?

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 05:11:05 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: All Subject: Just don't drink any koolaid served by premies! NT Message:

Now THAT was the first truthful thing to come from that source of blissful satsang!

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:35:47 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Never can tell.....wait until. Message:

A mid life crisis or something equally confronting. Don't think for a second that is beyond M!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 05:45:22 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Tonette Subject: And shroom can be the head butler. Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:49:59 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Look at this site. Message:

http://some-guy.com/quotes/maharaji.html Why do I suspect it's an EV undercover site.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 15:57:31 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Salam Subject: Maharaji and Setpal use the same condom?!! Message:

http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/Ratings.htm This is a great site. It rates gurus by the number of condoms they earn. The more condoms the better. The max is 5 condoms, the min. is non. Our ex-guru does not look too good Maharaji* M 1958- At age 8 was elevated to head of Divine Light Mission aka Guru Maharaj Ji, upon death of founder father. Lawsuit against mother Prem Pal Singh Rawat to settle who was true Lord of Universe (he lost but got to keep his green card). Org now called Elan Vital. Megabuck lifestyle. Home page: 'You may not copy, reproduce, imitate, alter, modify, publish, disseminate, distribute, transmit, transfer, create derivative works, post on any computer, frame, or broadcast in any other media, or in any way exploit, any of the content of this Website, including the Website Materials, in whole or in part, through any medium now known or hereafter developed, without . . . consent.' Still interested? Anti site full of stories from ex-members. Seems to have no substance, but benefit of doubt = one condom. While his brother Satpal rates even worse Satpal Ji Maharaj*M 1951- Oldest brother of Maharaji, also an Indian politician. aka Bal Bhagwan Ji Crowned by mother Mata Ji after Lord-of-Universe lawsuit against Maharaji. 'Travels across the oceans to talk to people and enlighten them about the human essence i.e. the life force called the spirit. He is enlightened and compassionate and finds joy eternal in serving humanity.' Fat and fatuous= half condom Would not be better if Satpal re-uses Maharajis' condom, re-cycle kind of thing.(yukie)

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 14:46:01 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Salam Subject: WOW, a premie acadamy in Malaysia. Message:

http://www.primeacademy.com.my/Contents/About_Prime.htm. Sometimes I wish I was a guru.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 20:16:21 (GMT) From: Private Investor Email: None To: Salam Subject: WOW, a premie acadamy in Malaysia. Message:

Salam, Good info. Don't be fooled by the rat's true purpose in establishing contacts in Malaysia. Can we say 'World Bank' and $40 billion Dollars. BTW - ADVC mutated from MFMI which mutated from MFI. MERGER GIVES MFI ACCESS TO NEW WIRELESS INTERNET NETWORK TECHNOLOGY NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 2, 1999--The Board of Directors of Media Forum International, Inc., (OTC-MFMI) a Florida-based communications company announced today that its shareholders approved a merger proposal from Advanced Communications Inc. (ACT), a company developing a new wireless communications network structure. The SpectruCell wireless communications network structure is especially suitable for 'green field' installations in countries with no land based communications infrastructure. The World Bank announced that $40 billion dollars would be spent by third world countries this year on communications networks. MFI is strategically well positioned to become a major player in this major market. Advanced Communications http://www.secinfo.com/d1ZXuj.51v.htm Advanced Communications Technologies Inc · 8-K · For 2/3/0, On 2/4/0 Table in Document 1 of 3 · 8-K · Current Report Download this table in: Spreadsheet Format (.csv) o each person or entity known to own beneficially more than 5% of the common stock; o each of ADVC's directors; o each of ADVC's named executive officers; and o all executive officers and directors of ADVC as a group. Name and Address of Amount and Nature of Percent of Title of Class Beneficial Owner (1) Beneficial Ownership Class ---------------------------------- ----------------------- -------------------- ----------- Common Stock Roger May (2) 24,150,000 31.7% Common Stock Wayne I. Danson (3) 100,000 0.1% Dr. Michael R. Finch (4) 27 Lakeshore Drive Holliston, MA 07146 158,000 0.2% Common Stock Randall Prouty 1900 Decker School Lane Malibu, CA 90265 1,007,500 1.3% Common Stock Wilbank J. Roche 2530 Wilshire Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90403 200,000 0.3% Common Stock Jonathan J. Lichtman (5) 4800 North Federal Hgwy, D-100 Boca Raton, FL 33431 930,000 1.2% Common Stock Nancy Needham (6) 307 East 51st Street New York, NY 10022 7,168,454 9.4% Common Stock Global Communications Technologies Limited 14,941,043 19.6% Common Stock All Officers and Directors as a Group (6 persons) 26,545,500 34.9% ========== =========== 1. Except as otherwise set forth, the address for each of these shareholders is c/o Advanced Communications Technologies, Inc., 19200 Von Karman, Suite 500, Irvine, CA 92612. Source:  SEC Info · Finnegan O'Malley & Company Inc. · www.SECinfo.com · 9/13/0

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 05:51:18 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Private Investor Subject: The links on your post are not working Message:

can you please check them.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 11:52:50 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Everyone Subject: re: Tammy Fay Rawat Message:

It's impossible to know when Marolyn-aka Durga Ji-aka Mom-knew this is all nonsense but assuming she's not crazy like her husband, she knows now. So one can only assume that rather than doing the right thing(which would be leaving fat boy and exposing him), she has decided to go along for the material free ride.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 12:08:38 (GMT) From: Yves' intimate friend Email: None To: JTF Subject: My educated guess it she's not as lucud as that Message:

Judging from the tone of her letter to some premie, she kind of had some devotional rethorics. Mind you, this was written in 1995. Her family depends on it. Most of us know by now in a divorce, wealth doesn't vanish. It is jus split. If she were to divorce, she'd still be well-off. I think, being around Rawat don't give her a chance to see things clearly. On the scale from greed to stupid, I'd say she rates on the stupid end.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:47:53 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Yves' intimate friend Subject: My educated guess it she's not as lucud as that Message:

My take on that 1995 letter was that she was trying to make a potentially embarrassing situation to the cult and its leader, i.e. something from sexual harassment to rape, go away. Some big time PAM was thinking w/wrong head. Mom used satsang rhetoric to discourage this woman from pursuing matter.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 14:27:45 (GMT) From: Yves' away Email: None To: JTF Subject: I didn't read that. Thanks for mentioning it. Message:

Mind you abuse is a household word in a cult such as this (as probably in every cult). Sexual abuse is a popular form of abuse. It happened in this cult more than one would suspect and from people you would think were beyond sexual abuse. One must question wether 'sexual abuse' has to do with power and domination rather than with one's sexuality. Rape is one particular form of sexual abuse which happened in this cult. We know of some occurences of rape by cult biggies. Chances are since we are talking about it, stories will start popping-out. Bringning these stories out in the open is part of the healing process. If, as suspected, EV/DLM was aware some rapists or child molesters were amongt its staff and didn't do what was necessary to stop this from occuring, it must be held responsible as an organization and as individuals and compensate surviving victims and families of the deceased victims. Evidence seem to point the normal course of action was to hush it. If you thought the Catholic church had problems with sexual abuses, stay tuned.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 14:39:21 (GMT) From: Yves in his mind Email: None To: Yves' away Subject: Everyone has a price. I'd be willing to forget it. Message:

Say, someone was willing to offer me a large sum of money in exchange for all information gathered so far and my promise to hush it, I may consider. If such an offer was to be made, I promise not to report it wether or not I was to accept it. Nudge-nudge. Wink-wink. Say-no-more, say-no-more. I can be contacted at: montreal.quebec@usa.net

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 22:34:25 (GMT) From: Yves in his mind Email: None To: Yves in his mind Subject: Nothing yet Message:

I promised to keep quiet if an offer came-out, not if nothing came. I do have some pride.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:20:06 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Yves' intimate friend Subject: Not so sure Message:

reading all the corporate stuff, it's very likely that virtually nothing belongs to the Rawat family in case they use proxies in all these companies. Guess what would be left to her if they'd split?

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:58:35 (GMT) From: Yves' intimate friend Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I didn't realize that. Nonetheless... Message:

Do you think she remains his wife because a) she's greedy and couldn't face life without this immense wealth? Given she probably is not so much into expensive toys, I'd tend to suppose, this is not the case. b) she's afraid of facing a divorce that would leave her poor. Would her grown-ups let dad leave mom in such a situation? I doubt it. She'd at least be left with a decent income and a life of her own. I'd speculate to let this one out. c) she's still under the impression her union is somewhat spiritual and, as we can deduct from the 1995 letter, Rawat is somewhat of a guru. Given she knows the chap, was abused and cheated upon and has seen it all, she'd have to have a very low self-esteem to keep going this way. Possible but unlikely. d) she knows she should quit but procrastinates and postpones (until tomorrow what she can do today) because she doesn't have enough control over her life. Given her youngest must be around 20 now, she may have postponed it until all kids have left home. e) she's only one among many PAMs and feels pressure to keep the lid down. Maybe her relationship with Rawat is an abusive one. We can see he is an abusive person and is not about to accept a divorce without putting pressure on her. f) a mix of the above.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:29:44 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Yves' intimate friend Subject: Good post .... 'f' (nt) Message:

fffff

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 03:15:51 (GMT) From: Sara Email: None To: Jim Subject: I know schroomage is good at it..but.. Message:

can any of you guys such me off ?

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:02:18 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: New stuff/pages on EPO Message:

Check the new 'miscelleanous' page Includes contributions on the forum that are worth keeping in some 'special place' ....

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 18:11:44 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Excellent, JM, Thanks. Message:

It's so important to retain that stuff and keep it available because the forum is a more temporal medium. Thanks so much for the valuable work you are doing. Joe

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 07:45:17 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: New stuff on Seva Corp., maybe EXTRA? Message:

Some new stuff on Seva Corp.: (in case you don't know what Seva Corp is about, check: Seva Corp's properties +++++++++++++++++++ Seva Corporation jointly owns a house in Los Angeles with April Gillam. From a www.knowx.com property search on Seva Corporation: You are searching: Seva Corporation -- Located in: ALL 10 matches were found Full Report Name: SEVA CORP AND GILLAM,APRIL Property Address: 907 HAUSER BLVD LOS ANGELES CA 90036 Percent Improved: 42.13% Year Built: 1927 Lot Size (square feet or acreage): 7,000 Total Square Feet: 2,014 Number of Rooms: 9 Number of Bedrooms: 3 Number of Baths: 2.0 Last Sale Document Number: 0001319320 Last Sale Date: 07-30-1998 Last Sale Amount: $417,500 Assessed Value: $417,500 Tax Amount: $4,573.59 Last Sale Transaction: F Lender: ALLIANCE BANCORP Home Owner Exemption: HOME OWNER EXEMPTION Fireplace: FIREPLACE IN PROPERTY Tract Number: 5798 Zoning: LAR1 Assessor's Parcel Number: 5089018035 First Loan Amount: $375,750 Heating/Cooling: HEATING SYSTEM Last Transction Date w/o Dollar: 07-22-1999 Last Zero Dollar Transaction Doc Number: 0001361846 Type of Interest Rate: VARIABLE RATE TYPE +++++++++++++ And here's something else: from www.knowx.com: Information America Database: Lawsuit Filed: County Clerk Civil Case Number: C582663 Filing Date: 01-10-1986 CA State: California County: Los Angeles District: Central (Los Angeles) Court: Civil Defendant: Attens, Ferdinand Defendant: Seva Corp Amer Defendant: Pascotto, Valerio Plaintiff: Gunnarson, Cheryl +++++++++++++++

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 09:33:28 (GMT) From: blood Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: How does knowx.com bill? Message:

this is some very good information... I am just wondering how much knowx charges for the services used. I do not see this information in their home page. thanks JM

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 06:51:07 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Everyone Subject: get a life Message:

breathe forget about the shit or deceptions and let's all just feel good this moment, anyway I'ts been fucking excrutiating -- so flamers, please just light your own farts for a sec, ok? For some folks, discovering a few things has been so painful, and remains really depressing so, out of kindness, let's those of us with a little compassion maybe turn our sights on kindness, recovery, healing, turning inside if we want and so choose, and otherwise enjoy this life. Yeah, let's pursue the truth and truthful answers, too! But, there's a reason most people even aspired or yearned for Kn. The heart -- after all -- wants to be fulfilled. Hey, we can still be fulfilled within -- just between each of us and our Creator (or whatever, our own energy, the cosmic force, etc.) Peace to all, please -- good night

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 18:14:33 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Baa baa, moo moo Message:

I didn't get k to get a fulfilled heart. I got it because it was the only path for all humans to take since Maharaji was the Lord of the Universes and k was ultimate truth and it was time to spread this knowledge to every land, to tell them that our Lord is here and they'll all come to his lotus feet, for their true selves to appear... What's it now? Maharaji's not the Lord and k is some old meditation techniques. It's got the sellng power of condoms in the Vatican.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:27:12 (GMT) From: Yves' ou to lunch Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: You convinced me (Ki Jay) Message:

Let all this go by unoticed and Rawat keeps shafting fools forever. All together now: All you need is cash. Da-da-da-da-da. All you nedd is cash, cash, cash. Cash is all you need.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:19:00 (GMT) From: sam Email: - To: suchabanana Subject: get a life Message:

I find from watching this site, when I interacted with my friends this weekend( and they aint even prems or exes) I had this 'flame you' mentality so Im going to try to be really aware of this and let it not happen to me

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 07:15:58 (GMT) From: Steve Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: get a life- tut tut......... Message:

Whilst I appreciate your desire for peace and harmony and agree with your sentiments I think that the heading 'get a life'is somewhat provocative. I take it you are not a current premie? I used that expression 'get a life' during my first posts here as a premie . I later found that it was a common admonition to exes here and wasn't appreciated at all! People here do have lives. Very full ones in many cases. The fact that people enjoy discussing their feelings and thoughts here doesn't indicate that they are bored or empty. Anyway I do appreciate your sentiments and I like your pseudonym! Steve

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:41:31 (GMT) From: sam Email: - To: all Subject: get a life- tut tut......... Message:

m has become more and more generic in his discourses over the years and I think its his fear of criticism. He just goes round and round and says nothing virtually- thus if he really says nothing, no-one can criticise what he says.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:29:47 (GMT) From: Sara Email: None To: Steve Subject: get a life- tut tut......... Message:

yeah i know what you mean flame

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 06:19:15 (GMT) From: Mr Bubblehead Email: None To: Everyone Subject: To Jim.......ot Message:

How to Win Arguments I argue very well. Ask any of my remaining friends. I can win an argument on any topic, against any opponent. People know this, and steer clear of me at parties. Often, as a sign of their great respect, they don't even invite me. You too can win arguments. Simply follow these rules: * Drink Liquor. Suppose you're at a party and some hotshot intellectual is expounding on the economy of Peru, a subject you know nothing about. If you're drinking some health-fanatic drink like grapefruit juice, you'll hang back, afraid to display your ignorance, while the hotshot enthralls your date. But if you drink several large martinis, you'll discover you have STRONG VIEWS about the Peruvian economy. You'll be a WEALTH of information. You'll argue forcefully, offering searing insights and possibly upsetting furniture. People will be impressed. Some may leave the room. * Make things up. Suppose, in the Peruvian economy argument, you are trying to prove Peruvians are underpaid, a position you base solely on the fact that YOU are underpaid, and you're damned if you're going to let a bunch of Peruvians be better off. DON'T say: 'I think Peruvians are underpaid.' Say: 'The average Peruvian's salary in 1981 dollars adjusted for the revised tax base is $1,452.81 per annum, which is $8676.07 before the mean gross poverty level.' NOTE: Always make up exact figures. If an opponent asks you where you got your information, make THAT up, too. Say: 'This information comes from Dr. Hovel T. Moon's study for the Buford Commission published May 9, 1982. Didn't you read it?' Say this in the same tone of voice you would use to say 'You left your soiled underwear in my bath house.' * Use meaningless but weighty-sounding words and phrases. Memorize this list: Let me put it this way In terms of Vis-a-vis Per se As it were Qua So to speak You should also memorize some Latin abbreviations such as 'Q.E.D.,' 'e.g.,' and 'i.e.' These are all short for 'I speak Latin, and you do not.' Here's how to use these words and phrases. Suppose you want to say: 'Peruvians would like to order appetizers more often, but they don't have enough money.' You never win arguments talking like that. But you WILL win if you say: 'Let me put it this way. In terms of appetizers vis-a-vis Peruvians qua Peruvians, they would like to order them more often, so to speak, but they do not have enough money perse, as it were. Q.E.D.' Only a fool would challenge that statement. * Use snappy and irrelevant comebacks. You need an arsenal of all-purpose irrelevant phrases to fire back at your opponents when they make valid points. The best are: You're begging the question. You're being defensive. Don't compare apples and oranges. What are your parameters? This last one is especially valuable. Nobody, other than mathematicians, has the vaguest idea what 'parameters' means. Here's how to use your comebacks: You say, 'As Abraham Lincoln said in 1873...' Your opponents says, 'Lincoln died in 1865.' You say 'You're begging the question.' OR You say, 'Liberians, like most Asians...' Your opponents says, 'Liberia is in Africa.' You say, 'You're being defensive.' So that's it: you now know how to out-argue anybody. Do not try to pull any of this on people who carry weapons.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:56:42 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Mr Bubblehead Subject: Geez......Another one in need of a good fuck!! Message:

Hey you and mushroom have alot in common. Why don't you go 'meditate' together? Better yet, start your own club in yahoo????? Why waste your time here when you could be MEDITATING and PARTICIPATING! Someone like you should know that you are not alone.....there's always Shroom!!!!

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 08:21:14 (GMT) From: Mr Bubblehead Email: mrbubbleheaded@hotmail.com To: Tonette Subject: Well, now you mention it. Message:

The Shroom is a bit too intelligent, noble, highminded and moral, for me to consider as a possible bed partner, plus I think he's a man. I like my women cheap, nasty and dumb.... just like you. You never know, we may have a cyber future at least. If you want to further explore this possibility, and some red-hot cyber sex thrown in, then drop us a line. Yours sincerely Mr Bubblehead

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 02:42:52 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Send me your picture, Tonette? (nt) Message:

fffff

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 03:07:03 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yeah, I want to see her too. Such a foul mouth! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:37:16 (GMT) From: Y argue? Email: None To: Mr Bubblehead Subject: In a nutshell: please stop existing Message:

This is a story of a lady who calls the cops to complain about a man going about naked in the apartment next door. Cops come, look out the window and see nothing. The lady assures them when she stands on the kitchen counter she can see him. This is the story of a forum participant who reads everyone of Jim's posts and reply to complain his arguing leaves him no chance at all. This is the story of another forum participant who write someone whose anonymous nickname is Mr. Bubblehaed to let him know he finds his last post utterly stupid.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 12:56:25 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Mr Bubblehead Subject: You must be a politican...nt Message:

ot

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 06:34:11 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Mr Bubblehead Subject: Yer KILLING me, vis-a-vis, LOL per se (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 06:25:48 (GMT) From: Steve Email: None To: Mr Bubblehead Subject: I like that- now I know why I lose arguments nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 06:24:17 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mr Bubblehead Subject: Yes, anonymity is SUCH a good idea (nt) Message:

kkkkk

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 03:23:33 (GMT) From: jondon Email: None To: Everyone Subject: M is not, nor has ever claimed to be a Prophet... Message:

That would surely jeopordize his non-prophet status.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 02:10:09 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: jondon Subject: OMG, I didn't know that was a joke!!!! Message:

Well surprise, surprise......the joke is on me ..AGAIN!

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 01:50:25 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: jondon Subject: Do your homework Jordan Message:

If you believe the above statement that only leads me to conclude that you are ignorant. Try just surfing this web site...get ahold of some not so old 'Divine Times' Then after you have done this I would be most interested in reading your post.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 05:46:17 (GMT) From: Steve Email: None To: jondon Subject: thanks for the laugh ! nt Message:

fg

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 01:24:28 (GMT) From: Lucas Spielberg Email: None To: Everyone Subject: old unused footage from the LOTU video Message:

Just wondering-does anyone know who the director or producer of the original LOTU video is?(the one that can be bought from amazon.com). He might, if he/she is still around, have either interesting anecdotes from his original work, or better yet, unused original footage,or might be willing to go back and revisit the guru phenomenon and update his original piece. Anyone out there with a copy of it?Any names in the credits that we could contact?

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 03:46:17 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Lucas Spielberg Subject: old unused footage from the LOTU video Message:

I noticed that Diane English was one of the producers of the LOTU documentary. She was the creator of the 'Murphy Brown' TV show, among others. It was probably one of her earliest gigs.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 02:48:10 (GMT) From: Yves in his mind Email: None To: Lucas Spielberg Subject: Why not? Message:

The film had two directors who went on to have significant career in film: Micheal Shamberg http://us.imdb.com/Name?Shamberg,+Michael+(I) Allen Rucker http://us.imdb.com/Name?Rucker,+Allen Give it a try.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 01:35:08 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Lucas Spielberg Subject: old unused footage from the LOTU video Message:

BRILLIANT!

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Date: Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 15:59:58 (GMT) From: Forum Administrator Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Forum participation at all-time high...! Message:

Apart from a slight tailing off during the holiday months, forum activity continues to rise unabated, and the daily average of messages read has doubled since the start of the year. average messages read per day since January: Sep: 5463 Aug: 4383 Jul: 4479 Jun: 4913 May: 4598 Apr: 3800 Mar: 3354 Feb: 3127 Jan: 2429

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:27:40 (GMT) From: sam Email: - To: Forum Administrator Subject: I cant believe how many Message:

mainly long time prems are flirting with this site- maybe a mass exodus is ahead. The new ex prems dont need this from what I see- they move on so easily because they havent had the mind control that m is divine so they judge it all as they find it- which I wish I could start over today and do that.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:05:05 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: sam Subject: M indeed told premies NOT to read exes websites Message:

I've got another confirmation from one of my spies this week-end. Rawat fails to understand that saying this merely indicates wavering premies that there is something interesting here !! They should be thankful to him!!!

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 18:00:19 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Here's a shameless plug for my web site Message:

Since there's so many people reading this, I should take the opportunity and plug my website more often. It's all here folks: Not Maharaji's Mixed Bag and there's links there to all the info available on Lord Maharaj, gee!

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 06:56:43 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: I can tolerate that..nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 16:20:33 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Forum Administrator Subject: Forum participation at all-time high...! Message:

Can we suspect a negatively-correlating fall in western donations over the same time period? Long may both trends continue.

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Date: Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 22:19:50 (GMT) From: Charlie Email: None To: Nigel Subject: participation high but what about direct action? Message:

What I'd like to know is whether Prem Rawat is going to get away without a heckling when he performs his party tricks in Harrogate Yorkshire on on September 23rd. Will any of our number living nearby be picketing the venue?

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:50:09 (GMT) From: sam Email: - To: Charlie Subject: participation high but what about direct action? Message:

the trouble is I think its better to just shut at these affairs. I went to a mata ji thing ( no relation to m's mum) and the christians came in and flamed it well. But I mainly went to prove to myself that m was great and this lady wasnt. All the flamers and disclaimers just looked like stupid 'uninformed' people ( or silly misinformed christians) and I think thats how prems would look at it. Maybe good at an intro thing, but most of the new programs seem to be for prems.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 01:57:51 (GMT) From: Tonete Email: None To: Charlie Subject: I agree and....... Message:

the next event around good old Washington,DC I will be more than willing to hand out my own sort of flyer on the street as people are entering the hall. I can print them myself.....For More Information check out these websites...ex-premie.org as well as ilovemaharaji.whatever. Hey, freedom of speech as they say. I'll dress well and be very considerate but this could be something I can do for my own conscience. Give more imformation to those who are about to enter into the ultimate mind fuck. Want tho know the meaning of mind????...well, just practice Knowledge and try to become a premie. That will show you. Any Washinton, DC ex's want to join me? Sure could use some company!

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 05:21:59 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com To: Tonete Subject: Are you any relation to Tonette? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 16:52:44 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Tonete Subject: I agree and....... Message:

Tonete: Where's the program? I won't drive my car into DC at all, or anwhere in the Metro area between 3PM and 6PM, but I might get there if it's not too far from suburban MD. (I'd probably be easily bored though. Don't find much about the guy interesting anymore.) -Scott

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:52:45 (GMT) From: sam Email: - To: Tonete Subject: I agree but oz too far away.nt Message:

otherwise I'd love to be there with you.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 13:14:18 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: sam Subject: That is wroung thinking Sam. Message:

You are already contributing. Also seperation is what gm relies on to break us down. oz is not far from anywhere else, not when you can reach anybody with a keyboard and a monitor. There are only few places that gm can hide in. His residence, India and Amoroo. All we need is to stir the water a little bit. EV is the most paranoid organization in the world.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 01:08:36 (GMT) From: activist Email: None To: Charlie Subject: participation high-what about direct action?G? Message:

Hey G-with your computer skills, can you give us any pointers on how to alert local media in some of these upcoming events?

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 02:06:36 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: activist Subject: direct action Message:

The only thing I could contribute would be to find web pages for the local media in Harrogate Yorkshire. The web pages may indicate how to contact them.

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 03:01:57 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: all Subject: Harrogate local media Message:

This is what I found: British English Newspaper in the North of England Yorkshire TV BBC Knowledge TV (no, not that 'Knowledge') Netscape search on UK - TV - Broadcasters Harrogate Borough Council Harrogate District Index

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Date: Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:57:09 (GMT) From: ki Email: - To: G Subject: I think oz is a target at moment Message:

People are talking about doing stuff in England- pardon if I'm wrong but is Australia next big venue? Lets go step by step.

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