Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 12:03:04 (GMT)
From: Sep 06, 2000 To: Sep 14, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Jerry -:- Interesting trivia (Totally OT) -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 14:29:14 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Rubber bands -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 15:02:35 (GMT)
__ G -:- some more (Totally OT) -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:13:23 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- What a dilemna! -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 23:30:10 (GMT)
__ __ More -:- some more (Totally OT) -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 21:27:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Now HERE'S an amazing fact -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 00:08:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- MORE amazing facts - and sobering ones too -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 12:28:31 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- some more (Totally OT) -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 19:03:24 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- squelched, scrunched, schlepped... -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:15:49 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- yep -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 19:08:38 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Oh come on, Nigel -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:19:39 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Interesting trivia (Totally OT) -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 15:59:22 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Interesting trivia (Totally OT) -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 00:04:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Interesting trivia (Totally OT) -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 19:29:56 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Interesting trivia (Totally OT) -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 14:57:34 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Interesting trivia (Totally OT) -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 15:16:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Interesting trivia (Totally OT) -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 15:32:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Interesting trivia (Totally OT) -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 19:16:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Ooo get HER! -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 23:48:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Interesting trivia (Totally OT) -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 22:16:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Interesting trivia (Totally OT) -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 00:24:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- What I meant... -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 06:23:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- No (nt) -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:00:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Q -:- Oh. (nt) -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:44:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- So? (nt) -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:07:05 (GMT)

Charlie -:- Come out of the closet -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 13:01:36 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Come out of the closet -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 21:45:39 (GMT)
__ __ Charlie -:- working relationships -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 12:44:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ one who cares/who cares? -:- working relationships -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 20:12:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim Matheson -:- 'Maharaji suggests that' -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 17:44:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Attacks by Premies -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 16:49:14 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- THIS is one fantastic post! -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:14:32 (GMT)
__ __ Charlie -:- Thank you darling! (nt) -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 12:46:53 (GMT)
__ __ Lotus Eater -:- my daddy told me never to talk to strangers -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 21:17:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- my daddy told me never to talk to strangers -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 19:37:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lotus eater -:- no, London in 73 from adharanand -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 19:31:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Thanks for clarifying that -PS love your posts(nt) -:- Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 16:42:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- my daddy told me never to talk to strangers -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 21:44:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- the journey entries -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 21:01:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I brought my husband to see the bigM!! -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 22:05:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mrs. W C -:- I brought my husband to see the bigM!!:Me too. -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 17:16:48 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- I agree Jim - Tempting. nt -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:21:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Heck, I'm not ever ... -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 19:04:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ X -:- Heck, give you a bottle -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 08:02:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- X, you've got no bottle. -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 11:49:45 (GMT)

Tonette -:- What were some of those idiot names? -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:34:00 (GMT)
__ Other Names -:- Satganga, was the worst. -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:59:32 (GMT)
__ some idiot -:- What were some of those idiot names? -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:49:40 (GMT)

ki -:- follow you initiator -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:54:57 (GMT)
__ Yves' intimate friend -:- I STRONGLY OBJECT TO THAT -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:36:29 (GMT)
__ Yves' intimate friend -:- The initiator looked like Twee-Twee bird -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 14:23:51 (GMT)
__ __ Yves' intimate friend -:- Someone suggested Trivenanand or something -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 15:14:05 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Lots of them have gone -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:15:00 (GMT)
__ __ sam -:- Lots of them have gone -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:28:57 (GMT)
__ Shroomananda -:- Maybe he or she should start an ex-initiator site. -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:08:24 (GMT)
__ __ De Pro Gram Anand Ji -:- Maybe he or she should start an ex-initiator site. -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 11:10:56 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- FYI, 'shroom -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:03:47 (GMT)
__ __ ki -:- Maybe he or she should start an ex-initiator site. -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:31:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ jai -:- Maybe he should start an ex-initiator site. -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 09:21:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sam -:- and....jai...what were you gunna say ? nt -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 09:38:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ jai -:- and....jai...what were you gunna say ? nt -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:05:40 (GMT)

Salam -:- Guilt. -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 05:45:31 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Guilt. -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:16:05 (GMT)
__ __ sam -:- Guilt. -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:50:02 (GMT)

Roger eDrek -:- The Way We Were - Not a Cult/Never A Cult -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 03:05:19 (GMT)
__ Q -:- Do all premies go faceless as in this pic? nt -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 20:47:00 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- These Pictures are VERY Powerful -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 22:53:33 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yes, thanks Yves! -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 03:11:23 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- How come? -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 22:56:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yes, butt I wish, I wish, I wish -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 03:09:09 (GMT)
__ charles -:- The Way We Were - Not a Cult/Never A Cult -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 12:14:08 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- That's Chairman Mao! -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 10:35:53 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Hey, that's Paul Gobes! -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 05:59:57 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Jim, the faceless, nameless masses... -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:20:26 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Yves only one flower? -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 03:42:38 (GMT)
__ __ Intimate friend of Yves -:- The last time he was offended was... in 1967 -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 14:08:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- good to hear Yves is doing OK :) -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:08:26 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- And still not a cult alive and well at FV. -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 03:08:44 (GMT)
__ __ Grammar student -:- pssst, it's altAr (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 12:43:06 (GMT)
__ __ Yves' intimate friend -:- Your mean to say god is gleat but gleatel is gulu -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 14:51:58 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- duh (nt) -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 11:29:46 (GMT)
__ __ sam -:- And still not a cult alive and well at FV. -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:05:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- Sam. what about digging out some... -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:34:24 (GMT)

who cares -:- Well I'm not the one on ten psychiatric meds... -:- Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 22:46:33 (GMT)
__ cq -:- 'healing place' is this? -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:28:14 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- 'healing place' is this? -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 00:07:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- who's he entertaining? -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 00:19:38 (GMT)
__ sam -:- Well I'm not the one on ten psychiatric meds... -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:22:35 (GMT)
__ __ whoe cares -:- Well I'm not the one on ten psychiatric meds... -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 09:04:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Yves' Rice-Krispies -:- Dear mister Whoe -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:38:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mrs. W C -:- Dear mister Whoe -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 19:01:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- You're a joke -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:02:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ sam -:- Well I'm not the one on ten psychiatric meds... -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 11:58:29 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Great post, who cares! -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 03:06:09 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- contageousity -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:38:43 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- I'd rather choke on my own vomit -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 01:07:47 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- That's what you do here every day. NT -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 03:48:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- choking on Jim's vomit is definitely ... -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:40:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mrs. W C -:- choking on Jim's vomit is definitely ... -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 19:05:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- And u drink it, right? NT -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 11:30:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I'd call it 'force feeding', SB. ;-) NT -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:03:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- 'Nothing to laugh at' -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 21:47:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- force-feed -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 22:21:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- force-feed -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 22:36:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal/ Steve -:- Absolutely right -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 13:25:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sb -:- But it attracts you :0 -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 16:47:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Actually, it repulses me, SB :-) -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 16:59:44 (GMT)
__ I sure as hell dont -:- piss off I didn't even read it hahahaha -:- Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 23:03:13 (GMT)
__ __ Sidewinder -:- piss off I didn't even read it hahahaha -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 00:48:39 (GMT)

Curious George -:- Jennifers Journey -:- Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 21:00:59 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Jennifers Journey -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 02:36:16 (GMT)
__ __ O -:- Jennifers Journey -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 23:17:20 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- premie 's kids -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:06:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- premie 's kids -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:53:03 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Jennifers Journey -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 02:13:49 (GMT)
__ __ Jenn -:- Jennifers Journey -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:35:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Try again? -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 19:53:45 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Jennifers Journey -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 00:59:40 (GMT)
__ __ Jennifer aka Jenn -:- Hi, from Jennifer -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:37:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- one of these days -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:43:48 (GMT)
__ Shroomananda -:- Jennifers Journey -:- Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 23:57:02 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- How much evidence would satisfy you...? -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:36:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Great post, Nigel....EVERYONE, PLEASE READ....(NT) -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 17:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve -:- READ NIGEL'S POST - A MUST !!!!! nt -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 06:10:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Barney's suicide-factor checklist. .. -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 19:36:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jenn -:- Barney's suicide-factor checklist. .. -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 22:27:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Barney's suicide-factor checklist. .. -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 00:05:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jenn -:- No guilt allowed -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 00:28:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, Vancouver had four or five in 74 / 75 -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 23:50:52 (GMT)
__ __ Curious George -:- Jennifers Journey -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:56:59 (GMT)
__ __ Jenn -:- What happened to my Aunt -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:18:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ O -:- What happened to my Aunt -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 23:10:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Will you please show a LITTLE sensitivity here, O! -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 19:33:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ O -:- Katie, you know nothing about sensitivity. -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 00:08:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Answer to O -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 02:20:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jenn -:- Read CAREFULLY, O -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 00:46:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hi Jenn :) -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 02:25:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jenn -:- Hi Katie :) -:- Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 13:52:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Hi Jenn :) -:- Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 14:38:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- I read the title and ignored the rest... -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 00:25:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jenn -:- Thanks, Katie. I got angry, too. NT -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 22:30:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jenn -:- You are splitting hairs, O -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 16:36:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- What happened to my Aunt -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 19:35:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- IMO Monmot, , this MS story needs publicity nt -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 04:39:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Publicity -:- Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 03:39:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- What happened to my Aunt -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:47:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- ps... assuming you ARE the same Jennifer -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:55:11 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- How about Dave Wener, Shroom? -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:24:58 (GMT)
__ __ Curious George -:- Jennifers Journey -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 00:37:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Jennifers Journey -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 02:05:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Curious George -:- Answers to your questions -:- Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 07:24:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sam -:- Jennifers Journey -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 08:23:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Um, excuse me shroom..... -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:33:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sam -:- Um, excuse me shroom..... -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 08:25:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- My transparent shallowness? To what are you -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:53:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- That doesn't work on me shroom, -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 00:42:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Yeah, well, if people are going to post stuff like -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 02:48:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Stupid remark... -:- Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 21:23:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sam -:- My transparent shallowness? To what are you -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 08:33:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Jennifers Journey -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 02:43:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Jennifers Journey -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 01:02:18 (GMT)

Yves -:- I am going away for a long while. -:- Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 19:54:57 (GMT)
__ Mahatma Dave Anand Ji -:- I am going away for a long while. -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 00:01:13 (GMT)
__ Michael -:- I am going away for a long while. -:- Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 23:00:20 (GMT)
__ cq -:- a long while? -:- Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 20:34:59 (GMT)
__ Comitee of Yves friends -:- Please don't do anything drastic -:- Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 20:08:46 (GMT)
__ __ Yves -:- Okay, I'll stay but remain quiet just to teach you -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 13:57:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ French fry with a Y name -:- This the cycle of... What? Abuse. Right -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:52:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Yves -:- Oops, I forgot this for the FA -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 14:31:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ hal -:- Yves you're hoot- welcome back nt -:- Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 14:19:02 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 14:29:14 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Interesting trivia (Totally OT)
Message:
I got this from a friend in my email today. I just thought I'd share it here because I got such a kick out of it.

> > Things You Don't Really Need To Know But Are Interesting...
> >
> > * Rubber bands last longer when refrigerated.
> > * Peanuts are one of the ingredients of dynamite.
> > * There are 293 ways to make change for a dollar.
> > * The average person's left hand does 56% of the typing.
> > * A shark is the only fish that can blink with both eyes.
> > * There are more chickens than people in the world.
> > * 2/3 of the world's eggplant is grown in New Jersey.
> > * The longest one-syllable word in the English language is 'screeched.'
> > * On a Canadian two-dollar bill, the flag flying over the Parliament
> > building is an American flag.
> > * All of the clocks in the movie 'Pulp Fiction' are stuck on 4:20.
> > * No word in the English language rhymes with month, orange, silver or
> > purple.
> > * 'Dreamt' is the only English word that ends in the letters 'mt.'
> > * All 50 states are listed across the top of the Lincoln Memorial on
> > the back of the $5.00 bill.
> > * Almonds are a member of the peach family.
> > * Winston Churchill was born in a ladies' room during a dance.
> > * Maine is the only state whose name is just one syllable.
> > * There are only 4 words in the English language that end in 'dous':
> > tremendous, horrendous, stupendous, and hazardous.
> > * A cat has 32 muscles in each ear.
> > * An ostrich's eye is bigger than its brain.
> > * Tigers have striped skin, not just striped fur.
> > * In most advertisements, the time displayed on a watch is 10:10.
> > * Al Capone's business card said he was a used furniture dealer.
> > * The characters Bert & Ernie on Sesame Street were named after Bert
> > the cop and Ernie the taxi driver in Frank Capra's 'It's a Wonderful
> > Life.'
> > * A dragonfly has a life span of 24 hours.
> > * A goldfish has a memory span of 3 seconds.
> > * A dime has 118 ridges around the edge.
> > * It's impossible to sneeze with your eyes open. (DON'T try this at
> > work!)
> > * The giant squid has the largest eyes in the world.
> > * In England, the Speaker of the House is not allowed to speak.
> > * The microwave was invented after a researcher walked by a radar tube
> > and a chocolate bar melted in his pocket.
> > * Mr. Rogers is an ordained minister. (Presbyterian)
> > * The average person falls asleep in seven minutes.
> > * There are 336 dimples on a regulation golf ball.
> > * The average human eats 8 spiders in their lifetime at night.
> > * A cockroach can live nine days without its head before it starves to
> > death.
> > * A polar bear's skin is black. Its fur is not white, but actually
> > clear.
> > * Donald Duck comics were banned in Finland because he doesn't wear
> > pants.
> > * More people are killed by donkeys annually than are killed in plane
> > crashes.
> > * Stewardesses is the longest word typed with only the left hand.
> > * Shakespeare invented the words 'assassination' and 'bump.'
> > * Marilyn Monroe had 6 toes on one foot.
> > * If you keep a goldfish in the dark room, it will eventually turn
> > white.
> > * Women blink nearly twice as much as men.
> > * Right-handed people live, on average, nine years longer than
> > left-handed people do.
> > * The sentence 'the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog' uses every
> > letter in the English language.
> > * The names of the continents all end with the same letter with which
> > they
> > start.
> > * TYPEWRITER is the longest word that can be made using the letters on
> > only one row of the keyboard.
> > * The word racecar and kayak are the same whether they are read left to
> > right or right to left.
> > * A snail [AND KRISTINA] can sleep for 3 years.
> > * American Airlines saved $40,000 in 1987 by eliminating one olive from
> > each salad served in first-class.
> > * A dentist invented the electric chair. (Does that one really
surprise
> > any
> > of us?)
> > * Vatican City is the smallest country in the world with a population
> > of 1000 & a size of 108.7 acres.
> > * 'I am.' is the shortest complete sentence in the English language.
> > * No president of the United States was an only child.
> > * And last and definitely most important: The average chocolate bar
> > has 8 insects' legs in it.
>

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 15:02:35 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Rubber bands
Message:
Hi Jerry,

The reason that rubber bands last longer when refrigerated is because, once you've squashed yourself into the fridge, there's no room to stretch them, so they suffer less wear and tear.

There are much more than 293 ways to get change for a dollar if you include foreign currency.

'Hair pull' rhymes with 'purple'.

And the cockroach may be able to live for nine days without a head, but how does it get to work in the morning?

Anth the Atom Scientist

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:13:23 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: some more (Totally OT)
Message:
Some more trivia, found on the internet.
I wonder if there are any sites that challenge any this.

'Some Obscure, Nerdy Facts'

4. A rhinoceros horn is made of compacted hair.

5. The shortest war in history was between Zanzibar and England in 1896. Zanzibar surrendered after 38 minutes.

7. Elvis had a twin brother named Garon, who died at birth, which is why Elvis' middle name was spelled Aron; in honor of his brother.

8. Dueling is legal in Paraguay as long as both parties are registered blood donors.

19. The word 'lethologica' describes the state of not being able to remember the word you want.

21. If the population of China walked past you in single file, the line would never end because of the rate of reproduction.

25. China has more English speakers than the United States.

28. The longest town name in the world has 167 letters.

29. Did you know you share your birthday with at least 9 million other people in the world.

31. The longest word in the English language is 1909 letters long and it refers to a distinct part of DNA.

33. The Eisenhower interstate system requires that one-mile in every five must be straight. These straight sections are usable as airstrips in times of war or
other emergencies.

------------------

'USELESS FACTS'

. It is illegal in Kentucky to marry the same man more than 3 times.

. In California it is illegal to set a mouse trap without a hunting license.

. In Tennessee it is illegal to use Lassos to catch a fish.

. If a man is wearing a striped suit, you cannot throw a knife at him in Natoma, Kansas.

. More people in the UK smoke dope than go to church.

. We spend 2.7 years of our lives on the toilet.

. Men are six times more likely to be struck by lightning than women.

. Two cups of water are lost from the body each night.

-------------------------

'some VERY bizarre facts'

. Cats have over one hundred vocal sounds, dogs only have about ten.

. Our eyes are always the same size from birth, but our nose and ears never stop growing.

. In every episode of Seinfeld there is a Superman somewhere.

. If Barbie were life-size her measurements would be 39-23-33. She would stand seven feet, two inches tall and have a neck twice the length of a normal human's neck.

. Feb 1865 is the only month in recorded history not to have a full
moon.

. The Pentagon, in Arlington, Virginia, has twice as many bathrooms as is necessary. When it was built in the 1940s, the state of Virginia still had segregation laws requiring separate toilet facilities for blacks and whites.

. The cruise liner, Queen Elizabeth II, moves only six inches for each gallon of diesel that it burns.

. There are two credit cards for every person in the United States.

. Cat's urine glows under a black light.

. Leonardo Da Vinci invented the scissors.

. In the last 4000 years, no new animals have been domesticated.

. Babies are born without knee caps. They don't appear until the child reaches 2-6 years of age.

. Nutmeg is extremely poisonous if injected intravenously.

. The most common name in the world is Mohammed.

. Michael Jordan makes more money from Nike annually than all of the Nike factory workers in Malaysia combined.

. One of the reasons marijuana is illegal today is because cotton growers in the 30s lobbied against hemp farmers-they saw it as
competition.

. Only one person in two billion will live to be 116 or older.

. The name Wendy was made up for the book 'Peter Pan.'

. If you yelled for 8 years, 7 months and 6 days, you would have produced enough sound energy to heat one cup of coffee.

. If you fart consistently for 6 years and 9 months, enough gas is produced to create the energy of an atomic bomb.

. The human heart creates enough pressure when it pumps out to the body to squirt blood 30 feet.

. Banging your head against a wall uses 150 calories an hour.

. Humans and dolphins are the only species that have sex for pleasure. [I doubt that, what about Bonobos?]

. On average, people fear spiders more than they do death.

. The strongest muscle in the body is the TONGUE.

. You can't kill yourself by holding your breath.

. Americans on the average eat 18 acres of pizza every day.

. Every time you lick a stamp, you're consuming 1/10 of a calorie.

. You know that you are more likely to be killed by a champagne cork than by a poisonous spider

. In ancient Egypt, Priests plucked EVERY hair from their bodies, including their eyebrows and eyelashes.

. A crocodile cannot stick its tongue out.

. The ant always falls over on its right side when intoxicated.

. Polar bears are left-handed.

. The catfish has over 27,000 taste buds, that makes the catfish rank No.1 for animal having the most taste buds.

. The male praying mantis cannot copulate while its head is attached to its body. The female initiates sex by ripping the male's head off.

. Some lions mate over 50 times a day.

. Butterflies taste with their feet.

. Elephants are the only animals that can't jump.

. Starfish haven't got brains.

. A pig's orgasm lasts for 30 minutes.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 23:30:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: What a dilemna!
Message:
I can't decide if, in my next life, I should come back as a pig or a lion.

-- time to change the lyrics?

Now, a pig is an animal ....

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 21:27:37 (GMT)
From: More
Email: None
To: G
Subject: some more (Totally OT)
Message:
If you laid all the women in a large room from end to end, I wouldn't be a bit surprised.

There are over a million people living at any one time in North America.

There are over hundred thousand people living at any one time in North Dakota.

The person who throws up more that 10 times a month is not average, or else drinks way too much.

Houston is the most polluted city in the USA, but George W. Bush says he has an excellent environmental record as governor or Texas.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 00:08:45 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: More
Subject: Now HERE'S an amazing fact
Message:
You could get the entire population of the whole world (including all the Chinese) to fit quite comfortably on the Isle of Wight in Britain.

There'd be some long queues for the toilet though.

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 12:28:31 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: MORE amazing facts - and sobering ones too
Message:
Can't remember where I read this, but it made enough of an impact on me to keep the newpaper clipping, which reads:

'If we could, at this time, shrink the Earth's population to a village of precisely 100 people, with all existing human ratios remaining the same, it would look like this:

There would be 57 Asians, 21 Europeans, 14 from the western hemisphere and 8 Africans.

70 would be non-white, 30 white.

70 would be non-Christian, 30 Christian.

Half of the whole world's wealth would be in the hands of only 6 people - all U.S. citizens.

70 would be unable to read.

50 would be suffering from malnutrition.

80 would live in sub-standard housing.

And only 1 would have a college education.'


Sobering, ain't it?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 19:03:24 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: G
Subject: some more (Totally OT)
Message:
I'm in trouble - my ears and my nose are too big already!

I think I'll come back as a pig though.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:15:49 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jerry
Subject: squelched, scrunched, schlepped...
Message:
Real words? - not sure, but all as long as 'screeched'.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 19:08:38 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: yep
Message:
squelched, scrunched, schlepped are real words

Also:

scrunched, craunched, scranched,
scratched, straights, strengths

squirrelled ? (depends on yer accent)

scraunched ??? (listed at Word Oddities but doesn't appear to be a word)

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:19:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Oh come on, Nigel
Message:
Surely you've got something better to do today? Don't they have crossword puzzles there?

:)

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 15:59:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Interesting trivia (Totally OT)
Message:
Funny how much imapct some of those facts have as you read through them. I found myself laughing, then crying, then laughing and crying at the same time. The room went dark and a feeling of unity and clarity filled my chest. A light shone before me....

But that's got to be bullshit about chocolate bars, don't you think? Where would they get all the insects anyway? And, even if they could, how could they get all those tiny legs in there without taking off the wrapper?

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 00:04:15 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Interesting trivia (Totally OT)
Message:
I read somewhere how many spiders there are in the average house but I don't want to frighten anyone so I'll keep that to myself.
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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 19:29:56 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Interesting trivia (Totally OT)
Message:
David:

I read somewhere that there are an average of 60 maggots in every can of mushrooms. Must be little ones.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 14:57:34 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Interesting trivia (Totally OT)
Message:
Wrong.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 15:16:54 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Interesting trivia (Totally OT)
Message:
Wrong what?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 15:32:39 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Interesting trivia (Totally OT)
Message:
Wrong.

'I am' is not the shortest complete sentence in the English language. I thought you'd get that. The bit about goldfish is wrong too, so is the one about the Speaker of the House of Commons. But what the hell - it's a good read.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 19:16:08 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Interesting trivia (Totally OT)
Message:
Sir David,

A complete sentence requires at least a subject and a predicate, such as the shortest one there is, 'I am.' Most of us, WHO WENT TO GRAMMAR SCHOOL, learned that in first or second grade. Perhaps you need a refresher course from Professor Pen.

You'd probably know better than me about the Speaker, but, and I mean BUT, how the fuck would you know how how long a goldfish's memory is?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 23:48:52 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Ooo get HER!
Message:
Gosh, you went to a real grammer skool. You must be clever then.

But I think that Scott T is correct. Perhaps he went to a better grammar school.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 22:16:03 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Interesting trivia (Totally OT)
Message:
Jerry:

The 'You are,' or 'It is' is implied, but still counts. The issue is moot, however, because 'Wrong.' is still longer than 'I am.' even if you count the space.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 00:24:56 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Interesting trivia (Totally OT)
Message:
The 'You are,' or 'It is' is implied, but still counts.

Scott, what are you talking about?

The issue is moot, however, because 'Wrong.' is still longer than 'I am.' even if you count the space.

Who cares? 'Wrong' is not a complete sentence. 'I am' is.
And what does any of this have to do with the price of tea in China?

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 06:23:02 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: What I meant...
Message:
Jerry:

Scott, what are you talking about?

What I'm talking about, not that it matters, is that the statement, 'Wrong!' *is* a completely legitimate sentence, with an implied subject and verb. All it requires is a context to support the implication, and David provided that. Not that it has anything to do with the price of tea in China... but then the whole thread was marked 'totally off topic' anyway.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:00:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: No (nt)
Message:
ggg
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:44:11 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Jim/Jerry
Subject: Oh. (nt)
Message:
ooo
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:07:05 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Q
Subject: So? (nt)
Message:
sdg
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 13:01:36 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: charlie@demont.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Come out of the closet
Message:
Dear All,

I am so busy these days with my kids and work that I just cannot get into writing to the Forum anymore, however I do still check in from time to time to read the wisdom of Shroomanand.

Anyway I just had to put fingers to the keyboard and write this note because something's been bugging me over the year and a half since becoming an ex. I can't help noticing how few new entries there have been included on EPO's 'Journeys' section, while over at ELK it seems that there is by comparison a veritable stampede telling the world how wonderful it is to have your brains turned to mush. I wonder why so many exes don't take the time to write something/anything which nails their colours to the mast more definitely.

Another thing that bugs me (and a few others judging by current conversation) is how so many exes are still scared to show their faces in public! What is it with all you guys who won't use their real names and give their addresses after so long?

Yes, I can also remember the uneasy feelings that I had when I 'came out', first with Lee my wife (also now ex) and then with all my premie friends who I was fearful of losing. Of course it was a period of massive disruption for me but surely that's what I wanted, to be free, to break the spell or should I say curse! It is like peeling off a Band-Aid plaster. My mother always said it was best to pull it off swiftly although my childish inclination was to gently pick, pick, pick. Maybe you guys who are uneasy about coming out also pick at their plasters too.

The point is that if you want to have any impact in this world you gotta get up and show your face, not just moan from behind a screen. If you truly want to have some impact on prempal and alert premies to the smell of the shit they're shovelling, you have to make a totally honest and open stand.

Before I became an ex my local premie brethren regarded the ex-premies of EPO and the forum as just THEM. Faceless people in a different country or even planet, wherever. When Lee or I stood up in their midst and told them what we thought about M&K suddenly EPO had a face for them and they could see a side to this play which they had been blindsided to. They are angry and scared but they cannot stop associating with us and they are changing.

Eighteen months down the road I have regained so much personal strength that I can't be arsed what my old premie friends think of me. I even know that I could be happy even if I wasn't to see any of them ever again. This is not a nice thing to have to say but it is a fact. I could not go on living with a buttoned lip in order to show respect for their asinine beliefs. They take me as I am or go away (fuck off), what's left of life is definitely too short for entertaining such claptrap. My premie friends and associates might take it that I am insulting them and so to them I say YES I am insulting you, what are you gonna do about it? I know exactly what they do, they ring me up and chat and we go out and see bands and argue about the meaning of life (or lack of it as the case might be) just as ever.

I know that some exes don't want to give away their true identity because they want to remain on Elan Vital's mailing list and they can feel like some sort of undercover agent or something when they get the next pile of shit through their door. Believe me it's harder to get off their mailing list than stopping double glazing merchants cold calling you.

So take a deep breath, count to ten and with eyes wide open come out screaming... FUCK YOU MAHARAJI! It won't hurt a bit.

Charlie de Montagnac

It's easy to find me and my address at EPO and other places on the web as well as the UK Kingston Upon Thames phonebook and here is a picture of me as well CLICK

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 21:45:39 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Come out of the closet
Message:
Actually, if you look at Enjoyinglife.org (be sure to refrain from eating before hand, and prepare to gag), I think it's amazing how very few premies actually post anything there. You will find a few individuals putting up inanities regularly, however, the overall number is declining and is rather small, I would say quite a bit smaller than the hundreds of people who have posted on this forum, just in the past 6 months. [If you have nothing else to do, go back and count the number of people who go through this forum. It's very large.]

On the other hand, it's very easy to spout cult-speak instead of really being honest about yourself and what you know to be true, and that does make it easier to write crap on Enjoyinglife.org, if you have no pride or self-respect, that is. Let's face it. Many people remain premies because they perceive it as the path of least resistence. They hold onto their belief system, parrott it to other premies, and they don't have to look at themselves any deeper.

The process of abandoning the cult is extremely confronting for many people, and it was for me. As you say, it can also be very disruptive to give up the premie identity and the simplistic schmaltz of it all. I think that's one of the reasons journeys are so difficult to write. I still haven't written one, despite having been 'out' about who I am for a long time now, but it is one of my resolutions to do so.

I agree completely that coming out is very empowering. And I say this as someone who has 'come out' a number of times in my life. But like LE said, there is the issue of 'coming out' as an ex-premie, and then there is the issue of 'coming out' on the internet. They can be different things and have to be weighed individually.

Also, keep in mind that 'coming out' as an ex-premie, also means 'coming out' about the fact that you were once a PREMIE. For me, that is the difficult, embarrassing thing to go public about. I have been, on numerous occasions, thoroughly embarrassed about people knowing I ever WAS a premie, and in many instances I would rather people I know, do business with, who rely on me for professional advice, etc., not know that I used to be in a very bizarre cult. So, keep in mind that it might be in that area where the reticence to reveal oneself on the internet might come from.

But I have made the decision that the advantages of being public about who I am are greater than not doing so.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 12:44:48 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: working relationships
Message:
Joe,

that's interesting about ELK, maybe I've been fooled by the way they layout the sections of the site. It always looks to me as though there's a lot of contributors and activity there, however I don't spend very much time trawling through those pages so haven't noticed the recurring faces.

I know what you mean about feeling embarrassed about your past involvement but I have discovered that most people I have met don't really care or understand anything about cults so they don't look at me badly. If they find out about my past and ask questions I am quite frank with them, then they shrug their shoulders and forget it. To an extent I think people I meet at work who have little or no experience of cults are more likely to be in danger from their attraction to cults than I am from their perception of me as a loony.

The only worry I do have regarding work relationships is what people would do if they thought I was spending more time with in anti-cult activities instead of the job (during work time that is).

My main point is that I don't think any ex-premie has anything to worry about with regards to coming out. What could possibly happen? Premies that I know are too peaceful to attack me physically or even to put a brick through my window, when you really think hard about it you realise that there's nothing they would do. In most cases all they'll do is keep away from you which is fitting with the soggy premie attitude.

Jim mentioned the case of marriages that might be under stress if it became known that one partner was suddenly playing for the opposition. To keep it secret is still stressing the relationship, you end up with growing resentment, no love and no point.

Yes, every time I consider it I have to say that honesty is the best policy. You simply feel better as a person and isn't that what we all want?

Actually when I first posted on the forum there were so many weird names listed I actually got the impression that I was required to have an alias! I can tell you I was very relieved when I realised it was OK to be me!

Charlie

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 20:12:44 (GMT)
From: one who cares/who cares?
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: working relationships
Message:
I was 'out' about it for a couple of years. Some of the premies I knew were put off by it and some overlook it. I think they might feel sort of a pity over me 'being confused' like some ex's might feel about some premies. I still, pitifully perhaps, feel a pang of love or longing or sadness for M regardless of all of the shared ex-attitudes I have had. For that, I guess, Gerry hates me now, if Gerry is showing a true face here. Or, if not hate than perhaps disgust or fear?

My reasons for becoming anon here have more to do with my recent experiences with a doctor who thought I might benefit from a short stay in a hospital when I was very emotional. She knows all about my posting here and I thought it would be best for me not to be so damned public about my self and my personal email address and so on. It is not a healthy thing to do...from a psychiatrist's point of view, to air all your personal feelings and beliefs in a setting where they can be torn apart and ridculed.

It is sort of Gestalt therapy here in a way 'though. I can have my ideas challenged in a way that is healthy for me. Some friends would not want to risk losing you if they really said what they thought to you. People here don't hold back on that. It can be a good thing. But it can be done without meaness and ridicule.

For example:Some people believe that spanking a child is a good way to teach them what is bad to do. Yeah, it teaches that spanking is bad to do! Kids learn that bigger, stronger people can control you by hurting you. Some of them go on to do this to their own children. Some parents also think that ridicule and comparisons are teaching tools...the 'I'm only telling you this for your own good, but you look like a slob and you're stupid!' sort of speeches. Both kinds of abuse make kids tougher and stronger to face the world, they might argue. 'I took it from my parents, so you can, too' says the abuser.

In some US states, in order to adopt a child, you have to agree not to use corporeal punishment.(In Texas where the republican presidential candidate comes from, it is still OK to spank kids in school with sticks...or if not now, it was a few years back.) Too bad the law is less protective of children who are verbally or emotionally abused. I think it is unacceptable in any venue. It can trigger past abuse memories in people who have had it, and it it cruel and unnecessary to make a point to use it! I don't mean swearing for expression, I mean name calling and put-downs and using personal information shared in trust, against you, etc.

Back to the anon vs. open issue:
I took off my journey entry and white pages recently. No long lost friends contacted me over publishing them, which was what I published them for in the first place.

Besides, in the US, all kinds of communications are being monitored in the name of Nat'l security. Big brother is watching. We might all be considered worth watching, just because we post here and were ever involved in a cult.

And then, my husband doesn't like the idea that all kinds of sales people and unscrupulous scam artists can get a hold of information on you from so many sources anyway. Especially if you give them all kinds of information publically. People actually get their identities ripped off and credit histories ruined by it. I think it is common sense, not paranoia, be pull back from display.

Since I don't really know anyone here, except Gerry, and Mike from the SW, and Michael Read from the NW of the US; why does it matter that I use my real name here anyway? It doesn't prove anything about sincerity or honesty. I am honest about myself by whatever name I call myself, and the reader can judge for themself how to take it.

I got K in 1972 and was active in premie houses as a housemother, and householder through the end of the comuunities. I continued to sometimes see M and sometimes meditate until spring of 1998 when I came here. I left all belief systems and then even the anti-beliefs of the anti-cultists for another healing year and a half, then I was active here again last winter as an ex who doesn't like labels of any kind and still doesn't like name-calling and abusiveness!

Then I saw a live video of M and dared to say that I thought some of his message was good, and I felt love for him and loved by him. Getting beat up over it isn't going to change the fact that I feel what I feel or don't know what I feel sometimes. I don't practice K or support M. I am now both a 'bad premie' and a 'bad ex-premie' which is why I think we should shuck all the labels! It would be more humane!

I have friends on both sides and friends who don't take sides. That is who I am now...I refuse to take sides because if I have to take sides...I am an outsider. I have not been afraid to tell M and his friends what I don't like about the whole thing. But I also don't think it is horrible or stupid or unforgiveable to be a 'premie' if one is so inclined.

Your photo is cute. A caricature artist could really do a good one from the sort of fisheye lens look!

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 17:44:01 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: 'Maharaji suggests that'
Message:
didn't this really bug the shit out of you when some supposedly more evolved premie would lay that one on you in order to get you to do something..

now I really don't care cuz all I want to do is kiss his stinking lotus feets..but maybe some people are just plain tired of unsolicited advice

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 16:49:14 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Attacks by Premies
Message:
I agree that there is very little change of any kind of attack by premies on ex-premies. I have never felt that was a real concern.

My only point was that it's a bit more complicated than just 'coming out' as an ex-premie. It's one thing to 'come out' to premies, for which I don't think there is anything to fear, besides losing friends (and possibly domestic relations problems where kids are involved), but there are other relationships and concerns that have to be considered, including revealing the fact that you were once in a cult, and in fact, in my case, you were in one for a decade, living a monastic life, and enriching Maharaji, who is the biggest embarrassment of all.

I agree that people I get to know and can explain my history have never been a problem. But in a professional setting, in which you often don't have the opportunity to make a lengthy explantion, I would rather that people not find out and wonder about my sanity, judgment and stability, especially if they are paying a high hourly rate for my supposedly professional, thoughtful advice.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:14:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: THIS is one fantastic post!
Message:
So well said, Charlie. Anonymity is for cult members anxious about maintaining themselves within the cult where any wrong move might mean a slide down the pillar.

I know one of the big justifications for anonymity some have bandied about is concern about estranged premie ex-wives or husbands retaliating somehow but I think SB is a good example of how thin that threat can be when tested.

We're dealing with a paper tiger cult leader and everyone should know that. We should know it because he sure does.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 12:46:53 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thank you darling! (nt)
Message:
zxdv
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 21:17:05 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: my daddy told me never to talk to strangers
Message:
Dear Jim,
The assumption that many make is that if one doesn't post one's full name and address in a public forum on the internet it is because of ones status as an ex premie.

For me that is not the case, I am simply being careful about the world at large.

I agree wholeheartedly with what Charles said about the impact of standing up among your friends and 'service colleagues' and saying HAMMY SUCKS, it does have an impact, and I feel really good about it.

I am happy for any premies to know I am an EX AND PROUD OF IT (Selene, I like exes too!), and any premie reading my posts would know who I am if they know me, Lesley is my real name.

I do realise, however, that if it weren't for those of you who ARE prepared to give your name and address publicly, this site and forum wouldn't have got off the ground, and I feel so grateful to the EPO for all the help I've received.

Lotus Eater

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 19:37:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: my daddy told me never to talk to strangers
Message:
On the off-chance - you're not the same Lesley who was in the Edinburgh ashram in the early/mid 70's are you?
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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 19:31:03 (GMT)
From: Lotus eater
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: no, London in 73 from adharanand
Message:
then I moved to Sydney, OZ in 75.
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Date: Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 16:42:08 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Lotus eater
Subject: Thanks for clarifying that -PS love your posts(nt)
Message:
sdhgf
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 21:44:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: my daddy told me never to talk to strangers
Message:
Hi LE
I have had some self-questioning lately, about my lack of anonymity.
It's smart to be cautions. I don't know, if I had to do it all over what I would choose. Caution was never one of my strong points :(

Your sincerity comes arcross very strongly.
It's the people who constantly challenge and disrupt, or personally mess with me, while hiding in their anonymity that bother me. You are obviously not one of them!!
hey I haven't written a journey yet either. In spite of being totally out there at times on the forums I am intimidated by writing one. Even though I meant what I told Jenn, they really help new ex's.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 21:01:57 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: the journey entries
Message:
Dear Selene, thanks for your post.

Yes, it was reading the journey entries that encouraged me to join in the forum. These were letters from my peers, it touched me greatly.

I have started writing mine, after a few false starts, I decided to concentrate on the journey of exiting, rather than the whole thing, even so the story is so big I quail at the task.

I kissed his nasty sock
I slaved for him and paid for the privilege
I loved a fat slob on a stage

I can live with these facts, even get some good laughs

I experienced acute mental emotional suffering (I am indeed fortunate not to be one of the suicide statistics)

I'm not laughing about this yet, I doubt if I ever will, however I can live with this, just, with a little help from my friends

I put my husband through hell for no good reason

I can't live with this, though I am delighted to be able to say that we are living together very happily again and time and patience are waving their magic wand, I need to understand it better. I hope writing my journey will help. Lesley

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 22:05:06 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: I brought my husband to see the bigM!!
Message:
He was cult free til he met me. Fortunately he never fell for it, just put up with it for the years since 91 til 97 when I
flew off at a weeks notice or less to spend 400-1000 dollars to stay in hotels, flight, meals, lost wages, etc. to see the
fat guy on the stage.

He put up with all of it. and worse yet he still is, as I
work through my stuffed repressed crap, and act out like
a crazy woman.

o?!?! oh!! Am I blaming????
Thanks Leslie. I think I can relate. your sense of humour
is great too!! :)

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 17:16:48 (GMT)
From: Mrs. W C
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I brought my husband to see the bigM!!:Me too.
Message:
I was remarried in 1987 and took mine to see M once and then to a few videos, which was then at various rented or borrowed public sites. While he found M to be kind of funny and had some interesting things to say, he could not fathom the idea of spending hours and hours going to videos and programs all over the world to get something that M did not really explain in his talks other than in extemely general terms. I also did not feel any urge to push my husband to get K, because I hadn't seen that having the K caused any miraculous positive changes in the people who had it, some for many years, like me. Still, I valued it as the best meditation techniques I knew of, even if I didn't use them exactly as taught or very often anymore! I saw M only one more time between then and now. And two or three years ago began the painful breaking away from my premie thought patterns. Still working on it. Glad my husband was never inclined to be a follower. He is a great person and great for me to be with. Grace of ???God, I think.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:21:52 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I agree Jim - Tempting. nt
Message:
gkhjg
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 19:04:52 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: jtucker@dircon.co.uk
To: Rawat the Rat
Subject: Heck, I'm not ever ...
Message:
...going to be a premie. Never wanted to be one, neither. I did like the cloak and dagger stuff though (sigh).

Hey, Rawat! If you were half a man you'd sue me for this.

And if you were half a poet, you'd write me a few sonnets.

But if you were half decent, you'd die of shame.

You're a poet, are you, Rawat? Laugh? I most certainly did!

My name is John Tucker. If you want to know more, just follow the link.

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 08:02:27 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Heck, give you a bottle
Message:
Sue you? What a joke.
Your charges are BS.
Oh, you write on the web. Big deal! How cute.
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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 11:49:45 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: X
Subject: X, you've got no bottle.
Message:
Mysogynous creep you are then, X. Thanks for the clarification.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:34:00 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What were some of those idiot names?
Message:
Remember how M used to name premie children? I remember there were lots of Sunita's in our community. Does anyone know any other names he gave to premie kids that he recycled over and over?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:59:32 (GMT)
From: Other Names
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Satganga, was the worst.
Message:
Also, Darshan, Lila, Mahatma Satchitanand, Mahatma Gurupujanand (that was Ira Woods), Pranam Bai.

Other kids names: Gita, Dayalata, Twinkie, sweet roll, Mercedes, Rolls Royce, Rolex, Gulfstream IV, V and VI, Prachar, Millennium, money, devotion, cash, Malibu, Mala, Surrender, That, BEGining, Nectar, Boeing, Wadi Sue, Holifestival, Mahatma Hansjayanti, Motorhome, Goldcrapper.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:49:40 (GMT)
From: some idiot
Email: -
To: Tonette
Subject: What were some of those idiot names?
Message:
I dont know Tonette, but I thought he named my child through telepathic divine grace - straight to my heart- and I wrote all that in her baby book and now she thinks I must be an idiot!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:54:57 (GMT)
From: ki
Email: -
To: Everyone
Subject: follow you initiator
Message:
when your initiator is an ex prem- that starts to tell me something.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:36:29 (GMT)
From: Yves' intimate friend
Email: None
To: ki
Subject: I STRONGLY OBJECT TO THAT
Message:
And I rest my case for my arguments are so obvious, they should be exposed loud and clear by the inner voice of tennis.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 14:23:51 (GMT)
From: Yves' intimate friend
Email: None
To: ki
Subject: The initiator looked like Twee-Twee bird
Message:
Shaved head, orange robe, he used to pick his nose during satsang. He had a crush on our housemother and was reported doing meditation under her sheets. I think she was only 17 then.

What was his ???anand ji name?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 15:14:05 (GMT)
From: Yves' intimate friend
Email: None
To: Yves' intimate friend
Subject: Someone suggested Trivenanand or something
Message:
Does it ring a bell?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:15:00 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: ki
Subject: Lots of them have gone
Message:
Hi Ki do,

The initiator or Mahatma I received 'that gift ' from , rejected Maha when he was corrupted by his desire and greed for material things and dumb blondes. She went over to his brother.

When maha started giving nollij personally I thought that those folks who got it from him would be really devoted and that it must be more amazing to get it from the 'great one ' . I know someone who did and she never connected with him at all. Never felt any devotion for him and pretty soon gave it up.

Hal

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:28:57 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Hal
Subject: Lots of them have gone
Message:
I got a personalised k review which theres also not much to comment on - I thought -this will be great, but it was very ordinary, not that I didnt also experience good things occasionally over the decades- but surely the greatest thing in the universe is better.. than... that...
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:08:24 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: ki
Subject: Maybe he or she should start an ex-initiator site.
Message:
What's his or her name? Or does he or she prefer to remain anonymous? Or are you just blowing smoke out of your rearend?
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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 11:10:56 (GMT)
From: De Pro Gram Anand Ji
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Maybe he or she should start an ex-initiator site.
Message:
an ex-initiator site is an excellant idea!

That is considering that fact that it came from a mushroom,mushrooms as we all know are kept in the dark and nothing but shit. Such is life in Maharaj Jis world.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:03:47 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Shroomananda
Subject: FYI, 'shroom
Message:
There are two ex-initiators that I know of posting to this forum, and another who used to post here a couple of years ago. (And I know another in real life who doesn't practice any more but doesn't post to the forum.)

They are quite common you know. And if you imagine intitiators must have achieved some exalted status to be selected for special services by your guru, I am sure they would be the first to deny this. (And then there's Jagdeo...)

Once the blindfolds come off it soon becomes apparent that the whole damn cult of whatever rank only ever led each other round in ever-decreasing circles (M included).

I have no idea why you should want to challenge ki's post.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:31:33 (GMT)
From: ki
Email: -
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Maybe he or she should start an ex-initiator site.
Message:
I dont do smoke- I do fire! I dont want to name and put shit on another ex. Would you?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 09:21:35 (GMT)
From: jai
Email: None
To: ki
Subject: Maybe he should start an ex-initiator site.
Message:
jus'want'd2C how it looked.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 09:38:52 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: jai
Subject: and....jai...what were you gunna say ? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:05:40 (GMT)
From: jai
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: and....jai...what were you gunna say ? nt
Message:
ki jai
re mem ba sam ?
inside
not outside
heart
not mind
soul
not words
feeling
not ignorant acceptance
balls
not pussy
innocense
not deceit
luv.......not hate
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 05:45:31 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Guilt.
Message:
Man this really pisses me off. I remember when I was a premie, guilt was what gm dishing out so that I do not wonder away from him. Same shit the shroomi tries to do. Maharaji gave you this so why are not thankfull to him sort of trip. He gave nothing. It was mine in the first place. In fact he wanted to steal it of me.

Guilt is shit.

I mean here we are, the all self appointed libirators of the premie race carrying the flag of freedom and feeling all guilty.

You do not belive me. Well read all the Apologitic posts to Yves and you will notice that. On one hand we chased the bastered until he left gm and joined in, then we shoed him off. Well done everyone including me, you are (including me)a bunch of trolls that can only get a high by tearing someone apart.

Yves, I am sorry if I have offended you in any way. Please feel free to post anyway you want. And by the way, I went to buy some rice krispies but they do not have them in Australia, so I am getting rice bubbles!!

LOL

Take care

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:16:05 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Guilt.
Message:
Do you really think that Yves was shooed off? I think he got a bit touchy about his multiple posting being criticised for taking up too much space that's all. I didn't notice any personal attack towards him. I certainly don't want him to leave, he's got a great , wacky eccentricity which I like.

I hope you come back again Yves.

Hal

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:50:02 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Hal
Subject: Guilt.
Message:
I think he was so excited at no longer being Boris that hes celebrating a bit with a posting party.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 03:05:19 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Everyone
Subject: The Way We Were - Not a Cult/Never A Cult
Message:
Thanks to Yves for this picture of the old days.

The Personal Altar

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 20:47:00 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Do all premies go faceless as in this pic? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 22:53:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: These Pictures are VERY Powerful
Message:
Please, keep them coming. They say a lot more than we could ever say in words. What a fat face Maharaji guy has!

As I think Dave said a while ago, I think the pictures of Maharaji, and of alters and 'the way we were' really get Elan Vital's goat. I agree that the pictures Dave and JM have put on the web, permanently, of Maharaji wearing malas and dancing half naked with crowns on, FORCED people like Glen Whittaker to say the pathetic things he said to try to 'explain' them away.

But see, you can't explain them away. They show that it's always been a bizarre cult, and still is, much as Elan Vital and Maharaji might want to try to spin lies about it.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 03:11:23 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Joe
Subject: Yes, thanks Yves!
Message:
Indeed, these pictures are powerful and show that we were involved in a pretty strange cult. Seeing those altars woke me up. I thought we was normal back then. Also, we could always compare ourselves to the real strange cults like the Moonies, Krishnas, Children of God, etc.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 22:56:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: How come?
Message:
The premies always looked so emaciated, like they were living in a concentration camp, while Maharaji was SO FUCKING FAT?
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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 03:09:09 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Joe
Subject: Yes, butt I wish, I wish, I wish
Message:
I wish that I could be as skinny as I was then and not have to even try. Now, I eat a stick of gum and I have to loosen my belt.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 12:14:08 (GMT)
From: charles
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: The Way We Were - Not a Cult/Never A Cult
Message:
What a wonderful site this is. I have been a premie for decades, but gave up any attempt at intelligent conversation approximately one week after 'getting knowlege'. Not being a hippy, I got tired of being accused of being 'intellectual' when ever I made a point. Judging by this site, the vocabulary now exists to speak plainly about inner life, particularly with reference torelationship to 'the Master'! What a heap of bullshit has remained unaddressed over the years,in the department of what is what between M and the herd. I knew all along, but simply couldnt say anything to anyone. What a joke! I'm glad it's out of the bag now. Let's hear it for the web.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 10:35:53 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: That's Chairman Mao!
Message:
How did we ever think he was God?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 05:59:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Hey, that's Paul Gobes!
Message:
Had dinner with him in Vancouver a couple of years ago. Great guy. Funny as hell. Thinks the cult was a joke. Used to do finances at HQ. Married to Margo Lennon.

I should give him a call.

He's looking a little bland in that picture though.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:20:26 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, the faceless, nameless masses...
Message:
Jim! There's a reason for these people looking a little bland and it is not because they had surrendered so much of their personal selfish self-centered ego. No, it's because I'm trying to protect their identities in case they are running for public orifice or something. Sheesh!

Now, if by chance you happen to clearly see people's faces in any of these photos that Yves is providing me it is because these people had such powerful egos that even after doctoring in PaintShop they still manage to blast through all of the pixel tweaking.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 03:42:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Yves only one flower?
Message:
Oh the pictures I have torn up over the years.
Some of my altars were so elaborate.

And still we both end up here. BTW I hope you don't go away Yves.

Give yourself a little time to get used to the place. I like your posts. I think the negative reactions were mostly just that you posted so much so often, and if you used digest or condensed style that would be solved.

I appreciate any new ex's who bring their stories here, it helps me a lot.
oh, it IS ok to say I like ex's isn't it?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 14:08:34 (GMT)
From: Intimate friend of Yves
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: The last time he was offended was... in 1967
Message:
Don't worry too much about his feelings. It don't get hurt all that easily.

As for pictures, he has a lot of them on file. Folks send Yves those they had. Why don't we create a common photo collection. His email?

montreal.quebec@usa.net

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:08:26 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Intimate friend of Yves
Subject: good to hear Yves is doing OK :)
Message:
Honestly I DID tear up almost everything and throw it away, in the 80's.
NOT because M wanted us to, but because I never could stand the pictures and ony had them because my ex-husband was fanatical about them. So I kinda lost the ex husband and the pics at the same time. A purge.

Now I regret tearing them up, no wonder M asked people to destroy that stuff back in the late 70's, they are great evidence!!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 03:08:44 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: And still not a cult alive and well at FV.
Message:
That don't want any non exes/premie around.

Those alters all look the same, no matter whose false god is in the picture.

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 12:43:06 (GMT)
From: Grammar student
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: pssst, it's altAr (nt)
Message:
ksjdhfk
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 14:51:58 (GMT)
From: Yves' intimate friend
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Your mean to say god is gleat but gleatel is gulu
Message:
Or something like that.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 11:29:46 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: duh (nt)
Message:
DUH!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:05:45 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Stonor
Subject: And still not a cult alive and well at FV.
Message:
Ive got some lovely k pics of the communal alta (of altered states?) and us holdind flowers & candles singing arti (must get them scanned)(except theres other people in them so I better not).
Why I mainly replied is that I just looked at EV's press kit and the 'EV is not a cult' got me- Iwas so disgusted at how he sloughed it off and put it back on the dah...devotees. I'm glad I have piles of 'it is divine' and 'golden ages' to verify the TRUTH as he originally said it.
see ya
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:34:24 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: Sam. what about digging out some...
Message:
of those juicy bits from your old magazines and posting some of it here?

Hal

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Date: Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 22:46:33 (GMT)
From: who cares
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Well I'm not the one on ten psychiatric meds...
Message:
(You could have replied to me personally, through email but you chose not to. So I will respond to your post here. All my response is in parenthesis:
You wrote):Subject line:Well I'm not the one on ten psychiatric meds...

(Are you implying here that you are superior to me because you were never treated for a disability? This is such a rude, low, prejudicial and ignorant comment!)

OK so ten is an exaggeration.

(The fact is I have not been on any specifically for depression or bipolar since early July, unless you want to count the thyroid med, which I believe you take also, and a minuscule amount of amytriptaline for sleep and fibromyalgia. I have more vulnerable
emotions and some energy swings, similar to the way I was when I first went on the forum. I became worse on the meds in the first half of this year than I'd been before, so I made the wise decision to get off medication and see how I am, before I decide how to treat my depression and changes, whether naturally or what. maybe I just need hormones, as I am going through changes that way.)

What's my 'game' again?
(What I mean is that I think you must act the part of an enraged ex-premie because...I don't know: you like it and you admire Jim (and admitted fascination with the outrageousness of Jim when we talked before), and you like the outlet provided by this
other Gerry. You had experiences that were not unlike my own with regard to 'bliss', and you you seemingly an open and loving person, back then! I can't believe it is really you, but I've been known to misjudge people. That is the point : we all misjudge people and it is worthless to think you know what someone else needs or who they are based on some narrow definition you make in your mind.)

And you wonder why I don't respond to your posts or email? Give me a break.

(Yeah, It sort of hurts, since I am a 'hypersensitive hot house flower' as described by your hero at the forum! I have more balls than a lot of men,and spare me the sexist comments like the ones about 'erect Elaine'! I am more flexible to changes in
temperature and climate than many other flowers I know as well! What did I ever do to you to deserve to be put in you conveniently easy to devalue category of premie or
premie sympathizer? What a jerk you've become! Oh who knows, maybe you always
were one! Jerk personas come out of pain and abuse that isn't healed, so I am sorry for your pain, truly. I have a big history of abuse myself and I thought you knew that. It makes me a more compassionate person as a result of my own process of healing. I
heard from professional sources as I dealt with my older sons' problems that a victim sometimes takes on the role of a persecutor and revictimizes others in a defensive attempt to regain personal power. Could that be what is happening for you...but in the cyber world where you think it doesn't really hurt people? )

And yes, it is a cult.

(Yes it does look that way...but so what? Like Sir Dave said...you can't change people,
they change themselves.)

And yes, people who contribute money to the cult ARE indeed wasting their money, money which could be spent in a myriad of different, better ways.

(Better or worse ways to spend money is a whole different subject and is a matter of personal opinion and choice.)

I know it is one of your new age ideals not to judge anybody or anything, but this is an absolute necessity in order to function in the world. Are you saying there is
no such thing as hedonism?

(You don't know my personal ideals just because you think you can lump me into some group you call 'new age'...you are just as new age as me, friend. Oops, I guess I don't
deserve to call you friend.)

It's a shame you're still a premie.

(Gee are you psychic? And what exactly does that mean...being a premie? You are too if it means the people who got initiated with the K from M. Once a premie, always a premie. Or is it once a fool always a fool. Or maybe you never really were one
because you never really loved him like I did! I was a fool for love and I felt a little pull back when I saw that Satellite event last Jan or Feb. . Well I haven't 'become a
premie' again, by any definition you could accurately put on anyone. Always, we are just human...who make mistakes and ought to be able to understand each other a bit
better for them.)

You have such potential to do good in the world with all your resources.

(Everybody has potential to do good with all their resources. Resources are not only material, as you know. I have no money other than that which my husband shares with me. By the way, I gave money to Brian when he ran the Forum and requested help to
keep it going, with my husband's approval. You see, I thought it could be a really healing place where people could really talk to each other about all the aspects of the before and after Maharji experience. But people like you and Jim have spoiled that
atmosphere for many who might have held help to find their own minds. The bullies are a real uninviting presence there. I have resources of time and compassion which I put to work as a hospice volunteer and a school volunteer, plus a myriad of supportive roles in relationships with both premies and ex-premies that are my friends.
Do you really believe you are doing good by ridiculing people?

Sincerely ...one who cares

PS anger is a defense to pain and I feel pissed at you, too

PSS The forum is a good place for getting a chance to express how pissed you are...but to stay there and go on and on continually getting reactivated because of someone else's anger that isn't healed...is to get stuck. It is the 'looping' that Lurkex talked about and that you and Jim so casually dismissed as 'new age' and joked about it.

If you get your pain reactivated by someone like me who was sure, for awhile, she was an ex...express that she still felt 'something', than maybe you should find another way to
heal from your cult experience, because it isn't working. Who is the hot house flower in this case? This is all an assumption that you really are wanting to heal and help heal others. Or is the forum, mostly, a very addictive form of entertainment for you.

I believe addictions and obsessions and of course the on-line bullying are well within the realm of psychiatry and if you were to go for help, and revealed all you think and do and say with a doctor, then you would surely have a label, too: a diagnosis which could be aided perhaps by medication... if you could stand the side effects.)

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:28:14 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: who cares
Subject: 'healing place' is this?
Message:
Someone recently gave this feedback about the ex-premie.org forum, saying it

'... could be a really healing place where people could really talk to each other about all the aspects of the before and after Maharji experience.'

It is for a few of us.

It could be for a lot more.

But what's preventing the more from joining in?

IMO, it's the fear of having to face the ... (can I say 'abusive'?) behaviour that SOME exes excel at in their 'defence' of 'being free' of Maharaji and his organisation.

Now, if these potential posters (and who knows what kind of juicy bits of insider information they might want to reveal about the former 'Lord of the Universe'?) were free of this pressure, I wonder how many of us would like to hear from them?

As it is, the prospect of having to offer a 'sop to Cerberus', as it were, (i.e. be prepared to deal with the likes of ... those 'exes' who are the most vehement and vocal in their desire to censor any opinion that doesn't fit with their own) COULD be one reason why this Forum isn't yet the kind of open space for discussion that many of us would like to see it becoming.

Is this idea really as 'absurd' as Jim and his cronies would paint it?

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 00:07:36 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: 'healing place' is this?
Message:
Hi cq,
Great post and I agree with all that you said. It isn't as assurd as some posters would have people believe. I rarely post these days for this very reason.
Nice to exchange messages with you again.
Oliver. :)
Ps. BTW, has anyone reported that M is at Amaroo at the moment entertaining the heavy duty contributor's. Just thought I'd mention it.
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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 00:19:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: who's he entertaining?
Message:
anyone know?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:22:35 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: who cares
Subject: Well I'm not the one on ten psychiatric meds...
Message:
firstly could I ask what satellite event last jan/Feb? and what made you 'pull back'?
Secondly I was going to say that it sounds like you look for the negative in posts- but I dont want to sound negative or annoy you
regards
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 09:04:31 (GMT)
From: whoe cares
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: Well I'm not the one on ten psychiatric meds...
Message:
I guess it was the first live broadcast by satellite tv into homes who had the connection. I went, the first I'd seen M in a current talk in several years.

If you want my history, I'd have to know yours. I used to be more open here about identity, but I choose not to be now. I'm outa here, it takes too much time and effort to be real here, and and keep up with all the posts.

I don't look for the negative, it barks at me and chases me out when I come! This post was personally to Gerry and I was hurt and angry about his post to me. I felt it was better to confront him directly rather than talk about him to friends who know him here.
I can't make him read it 'though. I know it had a sarcastic tone. That happens sometimes when I get responses that are so blatantly ignorant and cruel!

Past my bedtime...Bye

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:38:06 (GMT)
From: Yves' Rice-Krispies
Email: None
To: whoe cares
Subject: Dear mister Whoe
Message:
I think it's about time you'd get your name changed. About Unlessi Care or IDONTFUCKING Care. Or something more descriptive like Intensive Care or Tenderloving Care or Ido Care
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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 19:01:45 (GMT)
From: Mrs. W C
Email: None
To: Yves' Rice-Krispies
Subject: Dear mister Whoe
Message:
It is Mrs. who cares, and I might have used any of those names you listed. The 'whoe' was a careless typo. Sorry about that, it happens. I takes too much time to reread everything to correct them sometimes.

Don't know how to do spell check which would find them while writing here. And then sometimes: I don't fucking care whether there was a typo or not! Hee Hee! Sorry, in advance for all my future typos for those it really bothers!

I am stuck in the position of believing it is best for myself (and for others, too) to try resolve personal conflicts no matter how trivial the relationship my have seemed to the either party. For me, it is partly a matter of trying to understand how I decide who I can trust and also whether I can trust my own critique of people who I 'think' I can trust.

The biggest one of those for me was with Maharaji. I have reverted to being undecided. Is that such a crime that it justifies being 'turned on' and ridiculed by Gerry. He knows who I am. I was basically ex-communicated by one of my old dear premie friends when I told him I was an ex last winter. I don't know if that will ever resolve even if I magically became a fully devoted premie again...'cause I can't be trusted by that 'side' either.

I value all my relationships with people; I learn from them. I have something to give. I especially value the ones in which it does not matter what I believe because people trust and appreciate me for who I am. I am sorry Gerry and my premie friend, Stan can't do that right now. I miss Stan more than Gerry, because I didn't know Gerry much anyway, just thought there was a rapport at one point, and respect: a potential friendship.

I also will probably always hold to the views I've already expressed about this communication medium. Life is hard enough without people being intentionally mean to each other in any format!


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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:02:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: whoe cares
Subject: You're a joke
Message:
'It takes too mcuh effor to be real here'? And you're someone we all know but you're afraid to admit it?

Fuck off.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 11:58:29 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: sivan28@yahoo,com
To: whoe cares
Subject: Well I'm not the one on ten psychiatric meds...
Message:
here is my e-mail if you want to tell me about it id like to know- i'll keep it private
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 03:06:09 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: who cares
Subject: Great post, who cares!
Message:
In this case, the hot house flowers are 'Jacks in the Pulpit' of masturbatory self-indulgence - amazing what sick stuff some people get off on. Talk about wimpy weenies. OK, I deleted some stuff - I'm beginning to catch 'bullyitis'. Sorry!

Take care!

Stonor

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:38:43 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: contageousity
Message:
I'm not sure if that's a proper word but it came into my head.

I find that another side of me starts to emerge when I'm in the fray sometimes. Maybe it's some kind of psychic virus that being criticised by others brings on?

Hal

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 01:07:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: who cares
Subject: I'd rather choke on my own vomit
Message:
than believe that crap.

There -- a good, solid 'I' statement. I got it right this time. (Hey, there's another one! Not bad, eh?)

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 03:48:13 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's what you do here every day. NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:40:27 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: choking on Jim's vomit is definitely ...
Message:
... an acquired taste.

Me? I can only take a little at a time.

And he of mine (presumably) judging by his terse and dismissive responses to my posts.

ah well, ... as long as the Forum doesn't have to limit its menu to only his or my (or anyone elses' for that matter) 'puke'.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 19:05:14 (GMT)
From: Mrs. W C
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: choking on Jim's vomit is definitely ...
Message:
Very well put CQ!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 11:30:46 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: And u drink it, right? NT
Message:
LOL
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:03:35 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: I'd call it 'force feeding', SB. ;-) NT
Message:
Nothing to laugh at.
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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 21:47:32 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: 'Nothing to laugh at'
Message:
The Right Honourable Bobby Sands MP never spoke in the British Parliament. In all conscience he could not, being a republican. To be a Member of Parliament, you see, one has to take an oath of allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Instead, he starved himself to death in a British jail in the North. The authorities would not, could not, force feed Bobby Sands because, in many ways, force feeding is more horrible than Death. More horrible even than allowing a person to die a slow and lingering death through deliberate self-starvation, the ultimate act of disempowered defiance.

Nothing to laugh at. Nothing to joke about.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 22:21:16 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: force-feed
Message:
In this context 'force-feed' meant:

'to force to assimilate (incorporate and absorb into the mind)'

not

'To compel to ingest food; feed forcibly, especially by mechanical means.'

The force-feeding of food was not being laughed at or joked about, 'vomit' was used as a metaphor.

That's like saying that Jim was laughing at or joking about Jimmy Hendricks' death. I don't think so.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 22:36:39 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: force-feed
Message:
Hi G,

I don't know what or if JohnT was implying anything at this point, but to me force-feeding is no joke at all, nor is verbal and psychological abuse, especially long term. Deleting it does not undo the damage either. Nor does an apology (usually meaningless). Thanks for pointing out that when I used the term 'force-feeding' I was using it metaphorically in a particular context. I certainly did not intend to offend anyone when I used the term, and I wish I could say the same for those who have verbally abused me and too many others here. If it will make JohnT happy, I will mention here that his post made me cry, and I'm getting sick of it. If that wasn't his intention, I apologize to him, but that's what it felt like.

Sorry to post this to you, G, but I couldn't post to JohnT due to my past experiences of doing so.

Stonor is not made of stone, nor is anyone else.

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 13:25:18 (GMT)
From: Hal/ Steve
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Absolutely right
Message:
We're not many of us made of stone. There are sentient beings on the receiving end of our messages. My apology to you if I hurt you is not meaningless believe me ! Believe me?

Wishing you peace and contentment,
Hal

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 16:47:36 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: But it attracts you :0
Message:
You wish to be Jim!
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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 16:59:44 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Actually, it repulses me, SB :-)
Message:
Actually, it repulses me, SB, but it's often hard to get to know someone in cyberspace. Hope you are well.

Love to you.

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Date: Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 23:03:13 (GMT)
From: I sure as hell dont
Email: None
To: who cares
Subject: piss off I didn't even read it hahahaha
Message:
fuck you too
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 00:48:39 (GMT)
From: Sidewinder
Email: None
To: I sure as heaven dont
Subject: piss off I didn't even read it hahahaha
Message:
can u guys get me any ludes ?
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Date: Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 21:00:59 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jennifers Journey
Message:
Dear All,

I was touched and appalled by Jennifers Journey. I expect you all read it a long time ago while I was on holiday visiting Jim.

Are there any more fairly recent journeys? I would hate to miss any as brilliant as this one.

It seems as someone suggested that to suppress all the gunk and mental pain under the OOOOH soooo lovely petals of the lotus is a very dangerous thing to do. Are there anymore suicidal/blissed out premies that we can help before another one hits the dust.

Jennifer, thanks again and your aunt seemed like one of those precious kindly type premies but she couldn't ask for help BECAUSE PREMIES CAN'T DO THAT. They have to act like every thing in the garden is lovely and to refuse to look at any slime that might be at the bottom of that ornamental pond. The fassard (appologies for spelling) lives on. Elan Vital - you stink!

I'm really fed up!

Curious George

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 02:36:16 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Jennifers Journey
Message:
Very touching. Makes me want to design and conduct a study that would locate and measure by some method how all those premie kids turned out as adults. Emotionally, socially, physically. I often felt deeply saddened by some of the conditions premie kids were subjected to. Shitty clothes, very little medical care, lots of broken families, free for all child care schemes, inadequate nutrition, disruption of their schooling so their premie parent/parents could attend programs, financial resources contributed to M, the fat jerk, instead of going to these most innocent of victims. When I think of it, that whole era it makes me sick. It was very wrong indeed. I knew lots of premie children who were really wanting.
The suicide rate is another matter. That would also make for a very interesting study. Especially a measure of the rate of suicide during the 1976 thru 1983-84 period as compared to the general population. I would be willing to bet that the rate of suicide WAS significantly higher than the general population! Mainly that the dogma of the cult was so incrediably destructive during this time period and did seem to attract it's fair share of unbalanced people.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 23:17:20 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Jennifers Journey
Message:
This is typical.By second guessing the results of a study you will never have to do you not only don't have to go through the effort,but you get the negative 'results' you wanted.
Then typically your fellow hens in the barnyard chirp in with a chorus of agreement,and lo and behold….it becomes part of the ex-premie belief system.
I hope you don't take yourself too seriously Tonette because quite frankly…..you're a joke.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:06:28 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: premie 's kids
Message:
Hi Tonette,

I find the subject of premie's children interesting too. I have a couple of them myself. My 2 boys have been surrounded by Maha and other types of spiritual stuff for their whole lives , until recently. They've never been pushed into anything but they've heard Maha's videos being played and listened to lots of discussions about pathways to realisation.

They're now teenagers . My eldest son on once catching a little of a Maha video on the way through the room made a comment something like this 'You must kill the President. I am taking over the world. You must kill the president ' which he said in a robotic voice. It cracked me up laughing.

My youngest son said one day ' Well if there is a God he must be a complete asshole '

They've never shown any inclination to seek for The BIG TRUTH but they do show a keen interest in seeking for and weeding out bullshit.

I don't know any children who were raised in a really bad environment although they were probably affected by being usurped by Maha as the main attraction. The now young adult ones who I know are the most fantastic people. Only one of them has received knowledge. They don't generally seem at all interested in having a guru but they are very much more concerned about the well being of all people and the destruction of the planet.

Hal

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:53:03 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: premie 's kids
Message:
I have posted this before. I am repeating myself a lot these days because when I first came here I told all my stories.

Anyway one of my BIGGEST issues was guilt over my kids and dragging them all over the country to those festivals, usually with no money and awful travel conditions.

And yet we have talked a lot the last couple years about it all. They have really good memories of loving premies and lots of attention and FUN!! But they are like your boys, they have NO interest in finding any guru or spiritual trip.
So basically they liked the community but were not impressed by M. Just like me! When M ended the ashrams and nightly satsang my interest waned drastically (though I hung on for years out of habit)

What this taught me is that I don't really know what they experienced and I assumed the worst. I am so relieved they didn't 'receive knowledge' and start following M around like some of the premie kids their age did after they grew up.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 02:13:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Jennifers Journey
Message:
What a touching story, Jennifer. It really brings back the flavour of that time in the cult's eralier days. Thanks much.

And CG, do I know you? Or, if I do, do I know that I know you?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:35:55 (GMT)
From: Jenn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jennifers Journey
Message:
Thanks, Jim. I sent an e-mail to you when I first read this site, but I never heard back. Later someone said you were on vacation, so you probably didn't get my e-mail afterall. I'm sorry about your friend Dave.
Jenn
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 19:53:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jenn
Subject: Try again?
Message:
Sorry I missed you, Jenn.

Try again?

heller@bc1.com

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 00:59:40 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jenn and all
Subject: Jennifers Journey
Message:
Your journey came across beautifully Jenn.
Strong, passionate and yet right to the point at the same time.
Ignore Shroom, he would love to say that the M-realated suicides were not influenced by M.

I know better! When one's identity is shaky and the supposed lord and source of all isn't helping one damned bit, that is a tough hard thing to take. the mixed up feelings of 'where is my source when I need it?' just don't help. They intensify.

You posted that at a very critical time for me actually, with my family stuff hitting high tide right now, and with my grasping with anonymity vs. being for real on here.
After the last mix up where someone confused me with 'who cares' I think I don't want anonymity. I wish I knew. It's a bit late anyway. OK Im rambling about me haha enter X with a killer hate line now......
Thank you Jennifer. You can write!!!!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:37:52 (GMT)
From: Jennifer aka Jenn
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Hi, from Jennifer
Message:
I'm glad that people are reading the Journeys. The forum is compelling, but the journeys tell so much. There is another Jennifer who posts on this forum. I am the Jennifer who wrote the Journey. Since the other girl used 'Jennifer' as her forum handle first, I will henceforth post as Jenn when I am here.

Selene,
Thanks for the compliment on my writing. I've been working on it and it's getting better than it used to be. But sincere thanks for that.

I have been wondering about how you are holding up with your family. I just read a thread about your mother here the other day. Keep us informed, if you can.

It took me a long time to get around to writing that journey, but it was a good thing to do. My only regret is not having done it sooner. I encourage everyone to write your journey, even if you don't want to put your real name on it. Here is my real name--

Jennifer Carter

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:43:48 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jennifer aka Jenn
Subject: one of these days
Message:
I will write one. I agree they are compelling. They are what helped me the most at first when I came here. I read them all before I posted, as I was afraid to post at first but after I read the journeys I felt I could post, that I had found people who really understood.
I'll keep you informed about mom, most likely in email but I will write something here when I get back.
Thanks for caring.
Love, Selene
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Date: Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 23:57:02 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Jennifers Journey
Message:
I read Jennifer's Journey, CG, but I don't know how you can blame Maharaji for her aunt's suicide. You don't know what caused her aunt to kill herself. Jennifer didn't know. She said that her aunt was sick in the hospital. Maybe she had an incurable illness, maybe she had mental problems unrelated to her experiences with Maharaji and Knowledge, maybe she had relationship problems or any other number of reasons.

I think it's patently unfair to castigate Maharaji and Elan Vital for someone's suicide without knowing all the facts. People commit suicide in every strata of society for any number of reasons. Is it really fair to blame Maharaji when one of the people he gave Knowledge to chooses to end their life?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:36:48 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: How much evidence would satisfy you...?
Message:
And would you be prepared to go looking for it?

There are, in fact, numererous suicide references in the archives.

The thing is, Shroom, never mind population norms, given the way 'Knowledge' was always promoted as the ultimate liberation from the burden of our minds, doesn't it even surprise you that ANY premie would commit suicide?

Anyway, to save people the retyping, here's a few posts from the archive on the subject from a VERY brief search. I seem to also remember Jim telling of four suicides all occurring in ONE Canadian community. (Is that right Jim?)

Shroom, there is no shortage of premie suicides cited in the forum archives if you really wanted to hear some more on the subject. But I don't think you really do, do you?

>>>
Gail:

One older woman in London, who was screwed up for years before receiving K, killed herself afterward circa 1976. Her son used to be my neighbour at the back of 90 Albert Street ashram. After she committed suicide, he was committed to the London Psychiatric Hospital. The premies visited him for a short while and then forgot about him. He ended up jumping off an overpass to the railway tracks below. We read about it in the newspaper. His sister, also a premie, let the community know it was him. She said she could feel him around still and that MJ had taken him 'really high.'

Really high alright! I guess that is what MJ meant when he said that we would smash into a million pieces like glass.

>>>
Joe:

This site is really causing some brain neurons to get re-connected. The memories are really coming back. This is one more thing I recall from my Miami days that the suicide discussion brought back. It was sad, but kind of ironically funny in retrospect.
At one point (I think it was 1980) DLM did a slick, colorful propogation brochure (8x10) that Maharaj Ji personally wanted and approved. It had glossy pictures of about 4 premies (all very together and good-looking) along with short bios and statments about how much knowledge and following Guru Maharaj Ji meant to them. The brochure also included Maharaj Ji's picture and a short satang by him.
The sad and ironic part was that between the time the premies were selected and the brochure came out, one of the 4 premies featured commited suicide. Not a good reflection on his experience in MJ's world would you say? The guy was from South America and I think we actually used the brochure for propogation for a while nevertheless. Ironic, no?

>>>
Nigel (addressed to GMJ as possible New year resolutions)

Perhaps, if you can budge those calorifically-challenged cheeks from their comfortable throne for a minute, you might care to consider the following:

I just had a very welcome email from someone who, for good reason, needs to remain anonymous. But you know who I mean, don't you, Prem? - since 'not a leaf stirs' without the Master knowing about it, right? Anyway, this email brought tears to my eyes and left me disturbed, and angry at you, Mr Rawat. It was about a dear family member of theirs who committed suicide (Let's call him 'Norman'). You might also remember ignoring some letters from Norman when he wrote to you, desperate for a little understanding about what he was going through. Y'see, Norman was a very committed premie of yours for many years, but somehow slipped away into a dark depression that eventually led to a savage act of self-destruction. Never, at any stage, did he doubt you were the Lord, and only you could help him. But you didn't help him, did you, Prem? (could you , Prem?) And neither did your 'Grace' help him. Not one official or unofficial representative of your organisation would even go and visit him in those weeks of deterioration that led up to his slashing his wrists. Not one toady even answered Norman mail on your behalf. Neither did you even say 'sorry, Norm, I can't help you, but I know a good doctor who can...'

DLM never did go much for the old 'pastoral care' stuff, did it?

Perhaps you remember Norman's young children? - the ones that were left behind.

The last time the question of suicide was discussed on this forum, one or two people still loyal to you pointed out - reasonably enough, on the face of it - that Christians and Atheists kill themselves too. So who knows whether Norman might not have killed himself anyway. But that simply isn't good enough, is it Prem? And you know why.

Do you remember that song 'Never-Ending Well' published by your own organisation (over which you had absolute control ) that used to go:

Who can free you from your mind when you live beneath its shadow?
Who can show you light divine when there's only darkness here below?
Who can make the planets spin and move in cartwheels round the sun?
Who can show us that the people living in the world are one?

Maharaji can, with his light and love
He sends us tidings from above
Of a world of bliss where all may dwell
His Grace is a never-ending well.

Yes, Prem, do you remember the 'crazy mind' that preoccupied you so much in the seventies? The old mortal enemy. Remember that black-and-white cartoon world you created where only two things existed: The Mind and Guru Maharaj ji? How we should sacrifice the one to discover the other? In all the numerous times I came to see you, I don't think there was one occasion when you did not use the phrase 'crazy mind', repeatedly. And yes, my own mind was VERY troubled when I first came under your highly attractive spell, because you, and YOU ALONE posed as the only cure - the 'ANTIDOTE' you called it - for the crazy mind. 'Give ME your mind' you said; 'I EAT mind' you said. 'Surrender the reins of your life' you said, because you would TAKE CARE of us.

This is, of course, exactly what a person needs to hear when they are worried about the state of their own mental health, and need to be taken care of. You can tell yourself 'Great, I'm no more crazy than the next person, so let's all be crazy together and Maharaji will deliver us'. But you didn't take such good care of Norman, did you, even though you accepted his financial contributions to burn as gasoline for your E-Type to cruise the Pacific Coast Highway? You never took care of any of your followers, but you quite visibly allowed them to take care of you. Just as they still take care of you today.

The most disturbing thing about Norman's story was the fact that Norman might have been me. (The thought of suicide even crossed my own mind shortly before I finally got clear of your poisonous lies. But I got clear, and now take care of myself, with a little help from my friends, and am enjoying life very much, thanks). There have been many premie suicides, as I am sure you realise - so many in fact, I would put money on the incidence within the premie population being two or three times higher than among the population at large.

Listen. You don't like this website, do you, Prem? We are a pain and an embarrassment to you. But don't you realise that you could get so many of us off your back just with one small act of contrition?

You could start by making a few New Year Resolutions:

(1) Admit you are NOT THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE. Moreover, ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG to ever present yourself as such. Tell your flock that you have NO POWERS. YOU CANNOT MAKE THE PLANETS TURN IN CARTWHEELS, and, come to think of it, CAN'T EVEN TURN A CARTWHEEL YOURSELF. There is NO SUCH THING AS GURU MAHARAJ JI'S GRACE.

(2) Say a VERY BIG SORRY for any damage you might have caused.

(3) Admit you were DELUDED OR LYING when you claimed 'I AM IN A PERMANENT STATE OF GOD - CONSCIOUSNESS'

(4) Admit that whatever your followers feel when they meditate has NOTHING to do with you, and that the 'Knowledge' experience, whatever that might be - IS NOT YOUR GIFT to give. Admit you are as ORDINARY AS THE NEXT AFFLUENT BUSINESSMAN. Admit you are NOBODY, Prem Rawat.

Think about it. Mr Rawat, and own up for once in your pathetic self-obsessed little life. Happy New Breath, Hamster, and think yourself lucky that you - unlike many of your ex-followers - still have breath to enjoy.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 17:33:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Great post, Nigel....EVERYONE, PLEASE READ....(NT)
Message:
NT
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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 06:10:00 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: READ NIGEL'S POST - A MUST !!!!! nt
Message:
hh
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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 19:36:12 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Steve
Subject: Barney's suicide-factor checklist. ..
Message:
Thanks, guys,

(Guess I was a bit worked up there...)

Just found this archive post from Barney which I think the likes of Shroom should consider (if it fits his own 'reality')

>>>>
Barney

Just wanted to up the ante and put the word suicide in the subject to highlight one of the most dangerous pitfalls of being involved in Maharaji's cult.

Anybody who has been involved in the Forum and seen posts involving premies committing suicide. Certainly, Jim's friend comes to mind.

Indeed, I was suicidal in the mid to late '70s as I felt a lot of confusion regarding my life.

Consider the following items and see if you experienced any of them:
- Had burnt many of your bridges to get into and stay in Maharaji's world (eg. family, friends, career)
- Had put all your eggs into this one basket and discovered that the basket had some holes
- Living in the ashram or were living paycheck to paycheck and festival to festival - an endless cycle of poverty
- Told not to bother with Knowledge from College
- Told not to bother with a career
- Told that everything in this world had to offer was false and would only lead to heartbreak
- Told not to be in a relationship or marriage
- Told not to have children
- Told that problems and obstacles were due to not being surrendered or Maharaji's Lila
- Told good things happening were Maharaji's Grace
- Told that there was no hope without Maharaji
- Told that if you wanted to give back Knowledge to bring 4 strong men to carry away your dead body
- Had very limited social skills from years of relating to people in an Us versus Them mode. And then poisoned every conversation with someone without Knowledge while you were waiting to ponce and pontificate about the Lord of the Universe
- Defective social skills from suppressing your intelligent and honest responses during completely absurd, inane and insane conversations with premies
- You had few, if any, normal outside interests or hobbies
- You were not experiencing the promised bliss and attributed it to the fact that you were a worthless human being and had little, if any, chance of realizing knowledge and being happy

Sure, a lot of this is and was ancient history and much has changed for the better

But, have things changed that much?

I'd say that on the surface the message is more subtle and, thus, more palatable. Yet, if you listen to Maharaji and cut through the sugar coating about Enjoying Life you will see that if you are not enjoying life it is for the same reasons that were given in the past:
- The World is terrible, evil, false, etc.
- You are not trying hard enough
- You don't stand a chance in hell without the Master

Sure, I probably cannot provide the citations where Maharaji made all such statements

Yet, we know that he made a lot of them and he allowed his representatives to travel around and make them. And, to be more than fair and honest, maybe we, the premies, made up them or distored them in our zealousness. However, I really believe that much of what we parroted came down from on high.

Yes, one improvement that Maharaji has made is keeping the premies out of the loop is to minimize their crazy input. But, again listen to the message. It is the hard sell message that any salesman will instantly recognize and it starts with showing you that you have a terrible, terrible problem where you are not happy or not happy enough or how crazy is this world. And then the solution is presented to you and the sale is made.

And what a perfect product Knowledge is! Perfect for the salesman, that is because you always need more. Once is not enough because the product is defective and falsely advertised. Oh sure, the salesman will insist that you did not install it or operate it correctly and put the blame upon you leaving him an opportunity to allow you to place another order.

Also, consider this regarding the classic adage in the show business, always leave them wanting more. An entertainer never stays on stage too long because they know that sooner or later you will be bored and actually begin to dislike them.

Who is this long and boring message for?

Someone (Bruce) recently flamed the ex-premies saying we were a small group of people that kept repeating the same things over and over again.
- How small are we?
- How many active premies are lurking and reading these posts?
- How many aspirants are lurking and reading these posts?

I don't know the answers. But, the real questions to ask are:
- How many premies have been suicidal as a result of their involvement with Maharaji?
- How many premies are dead because of their involvement?

If you are Enjoying Maharaji's Life then fine. But if you are feeling trapped, frustrated and hopeless there's a way out. Start thinking for yourself again and Just say No! No more Jello for me, ma!

Ok, now I've done my public service for the day and I can go out and sell some more water filters or maybe I'll go to the university and buy up some textbooks.

P.S. The No more Jello for me line comes from the 1986 movie Peggy Sue Got Married emphatically said by Jim Carrey as Walter Getz on the night she cuts loose and smokes marijuana with him.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 22:27:30 (GMT)
From: Jenn
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Barney's suicide-factor checklist. ..
Message:
Nigel, thanks for posting that and thanks to Barney for writing it. It is VERY helpful for family members of cult victims to read testimonials like the one above. It helps to make some sense out of the senseless. Even though each situation is unique, all have factors in common.

This part said it all:

Consider the following items and see if you experienced any of them:
- Had burnt many of your bridges to get into and stay in Maharaji's world (eg. family, friends, career)
- Had put all your eggs into this one basket and discovered that the basket had some holes
- Living in the ashram or were living paycheck to paycheck and festival to festival - an endless cycle of poverty
- Told not to bother with Knowledge from College
- Told not to bother with a career
- Told that everything in this world had to offer was false and would only lead to heartbreak
- Told not to be in a relationship or marriage
- Told not to have children
- Told that problems and obstacles were due to not being surrendered or Maharaji's Lila
- Told good things happening were Maharaji's Grace
- Told that there was no hope without Maharaji
- Told that if you wanted to give back Knowledge to bring 4 strong men to carry away your dead body
- Had very limited social skills from years of relating to people in an Us versus Them mode. And then poisoned every conversation with someone without Knowledge while you were waiting to ponce and pontificate about the Lord of the Universe
- Defective social skills from suppressing your intelligent and honest responses during completely absurd, inane and insane conversations with premies
- You had few, if any, normal outside interests or hobbies
- You were not experiencing the promised bliss and attributed it to the fact that you were a worthless human being and had little, if any, chance of realizing knowledge and being happy

Sure, a lot of this is and was ancient history and much has changed for the better

But, have things changed that much?

I'd say that on the surface the message is more subtle and, thus, more palatable. Yet, if you listen to Maharaji and cut through the sugar coating about Enjoying Life you will see that if you are not enjoying life it is for the same reasons that were given in the past:
- The World is terrible, evil, false, etc.
- You are not trying hard enough
- You don't stand a chance in hell without the Master


Many thanks,
Jenn

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 00:05:51 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jenn
Subject: Barney's suicide-factor checklist. ..
Message:
You're welcome, and yeah, I thought Barney's post was great too, Jenn. (Hey, I'm feeling guilty because you're one of the people who emailed me while my computer was in the workshop and web-access was tricky. I'll dig it out and get back soon...)
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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 00:28:28 (GMT)
From: Jenn
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: No guilt allowed
Message:
Hey, you can't help it if your computer is down, right? Half the time I can't keep up with e-mail, even when mine is working :)
Thanks again for posting that,
Jenn
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 23:50:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yes, Vancouver had four or five in 74 / 75
Message:
Let's see.

There was Elaine, Nigel, Dave, of course, Greg and then the guy over here in Victoria who jumped out of a window.

And of course there were more. In Ottawa there was that other Greg who insisted on living in the ashram. We wouldn't let him and he jumped off a bridge.

You'd think DLM or EV might have kept a few records on its precious non-members. On the other hand, why bother? What'd any of us matter besides for service and donations? Oh yeah, we added to the head count --

Over six million ....

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:56:59 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Jennifers Journey
Message:
There have been numerous accounts of premie suicides on this forum. Read a few more Journeys and you may be more convinced.

What do you think about the child abuse that took place by Jagdeo? And the fact that Mahatmas like Charanand are still covering up for him?

What do you think about all the 'fundraising' that's going on these days? I here that the Edinburgh group is almost defunked. Maybe they have had enough of all this 'fundraising'
you know what they say about Scots!

I know many premies who openly admit they have emotional and mental problems. We all have problems but in my honest opinion and from my experience there is a direct link to 'practicing knowledge' the Maharagi connection/or lack of connection as the case may be, and observing what is going on in with Elan Vital and the PAMS. You aren't blind just look and observe for yourself. As I mentioned it would be good to have statistics but to find out what's true for YOU, INVESTIGATE. As the Dali Lama said 'Spy on your Guru.' Also what did you make of the hammer to the skull incident? Don't tell me M wasn't responsible. He encouraged the Mahatmas to do stuff like that for him. Just like they did for his father, his guru. But make up your own mind....drip......drip.....drip.

Best Wishes,

Curious George

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:18:35 (GMT)
From: Jenn
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: What happened to my Aunt
Message:
Hi, Shroomanada.

I'm not answering this post to convince you of anything. I do feel a responsibility now to attempt to answer your speculations. But I have to do so with a disclaimer of sorts: I don't know the whole story. Even my premie Uncle who lived with her cannot tell the whole story, because even he does not know the whole truth. So how can I know? How can you?

I believe that Maharaji is in part responsible for my Aunt's demise. Do I think he is totally responsible? Of course not. He did promise (in those days, anyway) that knowledge was the answer to life's problems. She had problems, don't we all? She was led to believe that Maharaji could make them go away. She was told this by Maharaji and by premies. Her problems did not go away with Maharaji as her lord and this much I know. This is the responsibility that Maharaji owns.

She took her own life and of course that was a choice she made. Her other mistake was to believe that there could be an answer to life that was as EASY as knowledge. There is no easy answer to happiness in life. There is no magic pill or technique or elixir to solve our problems. Sitting in a room trying to block out your thoughts may be pleasant and relaxing. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. What I am saying is it is not a cure for anything. Running around in a blissed out fog over a guru is not an answer to serious physical or mental problems either. IMO, it's not an answer to anything, but rather an escape. I think (note, I did not say 'I know') that my Aunt tried to escape from the world with Maharaji (he promised this, afterall) and when it didn't work, she took the out.

Knowledge was supposed to be so great that it was the answer to living. Instead it took the joy and life out of her. I don't know why and I'm not saying it would be the same for anyone else. I am not sure when the ashrams closed and all that happened, but I think it was close to the time she died. I DO believe that all of this disillusioned her even more.

According to family members, she tried to call Maharaji repeatedly when she was ill and did not get any type of response. Apparently she was desperate and left messages that she was dying and couldn't she please speak to him. God, that is so sad to me that she would even want that as a dying wish.

She did leave suicide notes asking for at least one person from the family to please see Maharaji. BUT this is not proof that she wasn't disillusioned. It is proof that she was immeshed in something that was for her, very dark. But she was a sweet soul and I loved her, regardless. I feel like my life is better and different for having known her. That's really all I have to say about this and I don't want to get into an argument with you over it.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 23:10:27 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Jenn
Subject: What happened to my Aunt
Message:
Jennifer, you said>>>'He did promise (in those days, anyway) that knowledge was the answer to life's problems.'
Me>>>That is completely false Jennifer!I challenge you to find where he said that.Quite the opposite,he ALWAYS said it was NOT the answer to life's problems.That is a documented fact.
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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 19:33:38 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Will you please show a LITTLE sensitivity here, O!
Message:
O,
I got very angry reading your post. You are talking to someone who has lost a beloved relative, and who, I imagine, will be hurting over this the rest of her life. The tone of your post was such that it appears that you don't give a damn that Jennifer lost her aunt just as long as Maharaji doesn't get blamed in any part for it.

IMHO, and I was around back then, Knowledge was definitely promoted as the answer to life's problems by both M and the premies, although, as Jennifer says, this was not stated as such. Perhaps it would be more definite to say that Knowledge was promoted as the way that you could ESCAPE life's problems (yes, I know this was never said, but it certainly was implied), or not care about them anymore, or whatever.

I don't know you at all, O, but from post like the above, it certainly seems like you don't care about anything but M and K. Too bad for you.

Sincerely,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 00:08:05 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Katie, you know nothing about sensitivity.
Message:
Yes and I was around too Katie and Maharaji used to use the example that it would not make your oranges grow better.Remember Katie?Know what that was meant to demonstrate?....yes, IT WON'T SOLVE ALL YOUR PROBLEMS!!!Sure,a whole lot of premies came to him because they thought it WOULD solve their problems and many of them post here on this forum.I can't vouch for how they got that in their heads.But he was VERY clear that it would not.
Damnit Katie how sensitive are you to the fact that when soemone who admittedly was not privy to the real reasons for someone's suicide lays blame where there is none that can be fairly demonstrated.And that the basis for her suppositions is a history she has clearly misrepresented.I feel for her loss Katie I do.But I won't let that be suitable grounds to make baseless claims that hurt other people.Yes,Katie how sensitive are you to the harm of blaming Maharaji for something he is not responsible for?How sensitive are you to the potential of such untruth hurting a premie?
Perhaps if you could stop being so pious for a minute and look at it from the other side you too would lobby for fairness over a mob induced rush to judgement.
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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 02:20:03 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Answer to O
Message:
O -
You wrote:
I feel for her loss Katie I do.But I won't let that be suitable grounds to make baseless claims that hurt other people.

OK, O. First, you should know that Jennifer is a very close, long-time friend of mine. AND, as Jennifer has pointed out, she NEVER said that Maharaji was fully responsible for her aunt's suicide. You obviously have not been reading her posts and Journey carefully. Thus, by blasting her with false inferences, you WERE, in my opinion acting with insensitivity.

Re 'making your oranges grow' - I agree. Maharaji never claimed Knowledge would solve your WORLDLY problems. However, I think he did make MANY claims it would solve your spiritual problems - otherwise, what the hell is it supposed to do? My experience was (and IS) that premies who suffered extreme mental anguish of any kind tended to blame themselves because they were imperfect and for some reason couldn't get what is promised out of practicing K.

I have a premie friend who also committed suicide in 1994. I have NEVER claimed that Maharaji was responsible for his suicide. I have said that I believe that if he had felt comfortable about getting professional help, or doing anything to feel better about himself besides practicing knowledge, I think his suicide could have been prevented. Yet every time I post about him on here, premies say that I am blaming Maharaji. Also, some of them knew my friend, and they take that opportunity to trash him and point out the many reasons why he would have killed himself anyway, or killed himself far earlier in life if he hadn't met Maharaji. This is very hurtful, and I am just talking about a friend here, not a family member who I loved very much.

We can never know the reasons why anyone kills themselves, and I know Jennifer agrees with me here. But I think there are factors in anyone's suicide, and I believe that being a premie was a definite factor in Jenn's aunt's suicide.

You also wrote:
Yes,Katie how sensitive are you to the harm of blaming Maharaji for something he is not responsible for?How sensitive are you to the potential of such untruth hurting a premie? Perhaps if you could stop being so pious for a minute and look at it from the other side you too would lobby for fairness over a mob induced rush to judgement.

Personally, O, I really don't care about hurting Maharaji. I think he needs to take a good look at himself and acknowledge the mistakes he's made over the years and sometimes this hurts. If he ever did that I would feel a lot better about him.

As far as hurting premies by saying untrue things about Maharaji, again, I refer you to Jennifer's posts and Journey entry. She carefully states what she thinks and feels about her aunt's suicide. She doesn't claim to know the 'truth'. In fact, her posts and Journey are very sensitively written - and were obviously difficult to write. That is why I got angry at you for making all kinds of assumptions about her and her story.

Furthermore, I sincerely doubt that the pain you or other premies feel over people saying negative things about Maharaji even comes CLOSE to what Jennifer feels about her aunt's suicide. I cannot believe that you would even compare the two feelings, honestly.

And finally, this forum is a place where EX-premies (and others) can write honestly about what they think and feel about Maharaji. Yes, I am sure it hurts premies to read some of what is written here. But it is clearly labeled as an ex-premie forum, and no one is forcing you to read or post here. You are just not going to find sensitivity to premies' feelings about Maharaji here - even from me.

Sincerely,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 00:46:27 (GMT)
From: Jenn
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Read CAREFULLY, O
Message:
I did NOT lay unfounded blame. You need to re-read my post. I said Maharaji owns some responsibility for claims he made to his DEVOTEES. He had power over them. I stand behind that. If you read my Journey I said that I did not hold Maharaji responsible for my Aunt's death. I should have said, 'completely responsible.' She chose to follow him and listen to him and believe him. That is the responsibility she owns.

Where are my baseless claims? All I did was quote Maharaji himself below. You CHALLENGED me to do this. Maybe you should consider that when you challenge someone to talk about Maharaji, the answers may hurt premies. That was your doing, not mine. I do not want to hurt premies. I stated in my Journey that I LIKE premies. You are completely misrepresenting me.

Be nice to Katie, please. She is very sensitive and a good friend who has a serious injury right now. She also has nothing against premies. In my opinion, you are the one who is rushing to mob judgement. YOU are judging US.

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 02:25:12 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jenn
Subject: Hi Jenn :)
Message:
Thanks for sticking up for me, but I don't care if O is nice to me. I don't know him (her?) and he/she doesn't know me, so it really doesn't matter. Also I don't think he/she read my post very carefully - same as yours.

Lots of love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 13:52:16 (GMT)
From: Jenn
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Hi Katie :)
Message:
Well, after I posted that, I thought, 'Katie can stick up for herself!' and I know you can :) When I said you were sensitive, I did not mean 'easily offended'. What I meant to say was that you are sensitive to the feelings of other people, which you are. How outrageous that someone would call you insensitive! That is downright silly.

Love,
Jenn

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Date: Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 14:38:10 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jenn
Subject: Hi Jenn :)
Message:
Wow!

Your 'Journey' got far more attention than I anticipated. Worried me a bit, but hey! not that much. You can write - and that counts here. Looks like O shot himself in the foot with his reply to Katie. No bad thing that.

Is it just me, or is the home-team suffering from random outbreaks of cheerfulness right now? Gotta go and take MrsT plus kids to the fair in our local park. She thinks I'm obsessed ;-)

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 00:25:21 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: O
Subject: I read the title and ignored the rest...
Message:
You don't know Katie (and none of us knows you, Mr Premie-Anonymous who lurks, snipes and shirks the hard questions) and you have no apparent empathy for anyone, nor reason to be here.

'O' (URL / NIL / &^%&^%??) you are a fucking moron. Bugger off.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 22:30:34 (GMT)
From: Jenn
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks, Katie. I got angry, too. NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 16:36:54 (GMT)
From: Jenn
Email: None
To: O
Subject: You are splitting hairs, O
Message:
AND you don't listen very well, do you? I said I did not want to argue about this. Maybe he didn't use those exact words, O, but the gist was the same. Everyone here knows what I'm talking about. Maharaji promised something he did NOT deliver to a lot of people. If he did deliver this to you, fine. But he did not deliver this to my Aunt.

You asked for quotes, here are a few.

Maharaji's own words:

'Confusion is for those who don't know this knowledge. But once a man has known this knowledge, he has nothing to be confused about.'

'If you come to me with a guileless heart, you will surely receive this most ancient spiritual Knowledge, which, if practiced upon, will give us perfect peace of mind

'Today people want love. I can truly and sincerely tell you that this knowledge is overbrimmed with love. I can't explain how much love it contains. There is so much love that if you take the water of all the seas, the love will still be more. If we take every human man's weight, add it, then we add the love of this love, this Knowledge will be much bigger than any man's weight. And this Knowledge is love. This is it. This is the love. A theif cannot take it from you, this love is so much. Nobody can cut this love. You can experience it whenever you like.'

'...where has our love gone? Where does our love go? We know that your love should always be constant. But it isn't. That's why there are so many opposites, that's why people are so confused. They go into their churches and marry, and tomorrow they divorce each other. Because the love that we do externally is not constant. External things are not constant. But always when the true master has come, he has guided the people and shown them the true light and told them to follow the true light. Then only can you reach the true destination that you ought to reach.'

'In this world, everywhere is darkness. You can only get white glasses by knowing that white, bright, shining Light. So if you go to Him, ask. Ask and it shall be given, knock and it shall be opened to you. So if you have asked for Knowledge, very good. Other wise, if you know the Knowledge, go ahead and meditate. This is the only thing which increases your love. And love increases you and makes you one with whom you have to be.'

'It is so beautiful, it is so fantastic to be one with one who is perfect, because you are your own no more, no more are there weights on you hands, no more are there weights on your shoulders, there is no burden to carry, no weight on your hands to carry, you are free.'

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 19:35:44 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jenn
Subject: What happened to my Aunt
Message:
I think the abandonment of premies by M and his minions cannot be underestimated in its impact on the lives of premies like Jenn's aunt.

Because we were encouraged (back then) to sever ties to our family and friends, we premies were freeze-dried and vacuum-packed in M's world, fostering an isolation which would be dangerous to even the most healthy person's psyche, never mind the impact on a more fragile person. Perhaps Jenn's aunt was fragile to begin with, but I think we need to consider the possibility that the dependence which she, and most of us, had upon M, and which was fostered and encouraged by M, could produce an emotional and psychological fragility which might not have been present in the first place.

I've told this story before, but I will reiterate it to underscore the importance of what happened to Jenn's aunt, and to emphasize that abandonment by M was not uncommon. I had a friend who was an extremely devoted ashram premie, and who was a Community Coordinator (or General Sect'y/DUO Director as they were called then) in a large city. He developed Multiple Sclerosis and was asked to leave the ashram because of his illness. He was offered no severance money to help him set himself up, nor any other type of assistance. Getting top notch care is vital in the early stages of MS because good care can slow the onset of more serious symptoms and can determine the tenor of the progression of the disease and, therefore, the quality of life.

As I said, he received no help. I offered to help him do the labyrinthine paperwork necessary for getting public assistance for his medical care and other necessities. He was in particulary dire straits because he had no resources, and because of his social isolation, really had no 'outside' friends upon whom he could rely on for assistance.

I contacted one of M's top echelon people to ask for help for this guy, if only to bridge the gap until his benefits and assistance kicked in, and I was told that M was not here to help 'sick' people. When I mentioned that this person had dedicated years of his life to M, and surely some help could be eked out temporarily, I was told, 'Sorry, no, that is not M's role.'

I had already hit the brick wall with regard to M because of the arctic manner in which I had been treated when I was in dire need myself, and I had been asking only for emotional support, not monetary or physical support.

Needless to say, this cold and callous treatment toward my friend severed for eternity the emotional umbilical cord I had attached to M over the years of my involvement. Harder to cut was, and is, the social web I had spun.

All of this is to say, I guess, that given the atmosphere of emotional dependence and social isolation prevalent in many premies' lives at that time, especially as it was fostered by M, M's immense responsibility toward his premies cannot be ignored, minimized, or swept under the rug.

Jenn, thank you for your articulate and touching telling of your Aunt's story.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 04:39:18 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: IMO Monmot, , this MS story needs publicity nt
Message:
dsfsdg
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Date: Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 03:39:51 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Publicity
Message:
An effective way to spread a document is to put the following copyright notice on it:-

Copyright year name
Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article are
permitted in any medium provided this notice is preserved.

The author keeps control of their words - but the article may be freely distributed among interested parties. I've done this with a couple of my efforts (J'accuse and Special K) so that anyone who wants to use them can do so, without formality; but the integrity of the work is preserved (a person cannot bowlderise it or pervert its meaning with alterations).

I'm indebted to cq for the title Special K; and to Richard Stallman for this form of copyright notice.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:47:04 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jenn
Subject: What happened to my Aunt
Message:
Thanks, Jenn, both for your journeys post and now taking the trouble to make such a detailed reply to Shroom which he really didn't deserve.

I find it interesting that Shroom won't even consider the possibility that M could ever be culpable for anything bad that happens around him, or the consequences of his 'Lord of the Universe'/'surrender the reins' phase. I also remember at my Knowledge session, David Smith claiming that K was the best cure for all mental problems. (Did M tell him to say this? - Perhaps not, but by demanding total devotion whilst talking about destroying the mind, he certainly invited that conclusion and dissuaded those who needed medical help to look elsewhere for it... For that much, Maharaji most certainly is responsible.)

I know from our emails that you have good reason to place more of the blame at M's door than you have really let on here. And if Shroom can claim that you ultimately 'don't know', well... how much less does Shroom know? is all I can say. Yet he speaks with this blithely insensitive confidence in his Master that I find repulsive.

(BTW, Jenn: nice to see you 'come out' at last. Bet it feels good, heh?)

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:55:11 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: ps... assuming you ARE the same Jennifer
Message:
(it would be quite a coincidence if you weren't the Jennifer I have spoken to, but just possible, I guess! ;-)
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:24:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: How about Dave Wener, Shroom?
Message:
What about a guy who I knew long before k, who turned me on to it in fact, who started to worry that he couldn't keep his doubts at bay in early '74. That was his only concern. He was a completely into it ashram premie. All he cared about was 'realizing k' which, if you recall, was all we were supposed to care about then. He loved and worshipped m as bet he could, just like the rest of us. Wrote songs for satsang, gave beautiful satsang, did nothing but s, s and m. You know, the whole nine yards.

Anyway, he hung himself because he was so freaked out by 'Mr. Mind'.

I know because, as I've so often said, he came and saw me the day before begging for help. All I could do, of course, was give him satsang. Mind you, that was exactly the help he wanted. He wanted help getting his mind to back off. Maharaji was the Lord, he knew it and he wanted nothing to stand in the way of his devotion.

Fuck you, Shroom.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 00:37:36 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Jennifers Journey
Message:
Dear Shroomananda,

Forgive me. But there is a very high suicide rate within this group/cult. And these are only the ones we know about.

I am very concerned that everything is made to look rosy on the outside of this group/cult. It would be much better and healthier if people in this cult/group were more open and more honest.

I know the first Western Mahatma Saphlanand had severe mental problems after which he was brushed under the carpet. Now Glen mentions him endearingly but no-one in this 'compassionate' group/cult ever tried to help him.

Then there was another Scottish premie who died of a heroin overdose. I could think of no one more devoted to M than him and I expect M didn't know anything about his death.

Sorry to rain on your parade, Shroo. It would be great if we could get some actual statistics. I bet nearly every single premie knows of at least one premie suicide.

I know Knowledge is pretty great but that doesn't mean you have to avoid looking at what's really happening in the 'real world' of Knowledge.

Regards,

Curious George

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 02:05:08 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Jennifers Journey
Message:
Curious George wrote:

Forgive me. But there is a very high suicide rate within this group/cult. And these are only the ones we know about.

Shroomananda responds:

Look, Curious George, I feel your angst but I must ask you how you can make statements like this. How do you know that there is a very high suicide rate with people who have received Knowledge? Is this your opinion or is it based on facts? I feel like you're making unsubstantiated claims here. I don't know what the suicide rate is for the general population and I also don't know what the suicide rate is for people who have received Knowledge. Do you? If not, how can you make the statement that 'there is a very high suicide rate within this group/cult'. I am not trying to defend anyone or anything here. I am interested in the truth. Do you have any figures to back this up with?

Curious George wrote:

I am very concerned that everything is made to look rosy on the outside of this group/cult. It would be much better and healthier if people in this cult/group were more open and more honest.

Shroomananda responds:

Here again I would like to ask you about your statement that 'It would be much better and healthier if people in this cult/group were more open and more honest'. What people are you talking about? The people who still practice Knowledge and enjoy listening to Maharaji? If so, isn't this a gross generalization? I know many honest and open people who practice Knowledge and listen to Maharaji. I also know some scumballs, idiots and robots who aren't open and honest. But to imply that everyone who still enjoys listening to Maharaji and practicing Knowledge need to be more open and more honest is unfair and a gross exaggeration.

Curious George wrote:

I know the first Western Mahatma Saphlanand had severe mental problems after which he was brushed under the carpet. Now Glen mentions him endearingly but no-one in this 'compassionate' group/cult ever tried to help him.

Shroomananda responds:

I don't know Saphlanand's story other than what I read in 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' Could you please elaborate here? How was he 'brushed under the carpet'? How do you know that no one tried to help him if he did have mental problems? I'm interested in the truth. Can you provide any specifics?

Curious George wrote:

Then there was another Scottish premie who died of a heroin overdose. I could think of no one more devoted to M than him and I expect M didn't know anything about his death.

Shroomananda responds:

Are you blaming Maharaji here? Is he supposed to be aware of the circumstances of all the people he's given Knowledge to? What are you saying here? That he is callous and unfeeling? I don't understand. Please clarify.

Curious George wrote:

Sorry to rain on your parade, Shroo. It would be great if we could get some actual statistics. I bet nearly every single premie knows of at least one premie suicide.

Shroomananda responds:

You aren't raining on my parade. I'm interested in truth. I would love some actual statistics. I've never heard of a single person who has received Knowledge and then committed suicide. Except what Jim Heller wrote about his friend who hung himself. Are you implying that Maharaji and his gift of Knowledge are causing people to commit suicide? Please name me a group, profession or cult that hasn't had someone commit suicide.

Curious George wrote:

I know Knowledge is pretty great but that doesn't mean you have to avoid looking at what's really happening in the 'real world' of Knowledge.

Shroomananda responds:

I know that Knowledge is pretty great. Why does that mean that I'm avoiding looking at what's really happening in the 'real world'? I don't get it. Please tell me what I'm avoiding.

Regards,

Shroomananda

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 07:24:58 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Answers to your questions
Message:
Dear Shroom,

Ask someone who knew/knows Saph. what happened. Why he lost his title of Mahatma a few years after he ws given it.

You are right, my Scottish friend could have accidentally overdosed but I do know that M was unaware of the lengths this guy could go in his devotion towards a man he had been told to be devoted to.

Didn't it sound like Jenns Aunt was totally devoted to M also?
Wouldn't you think that total devotion equaled total oneness and peace of mind?...... Definately wrong.

How do you feel about these sexual abuse incidents? The abuse of children and vunerable young women? And again what did you think of the skullbashing that almost or eventually killed a guy? And the coverup that happened afterwards?

What do you think about the Dali Lama's statement of 'Spy on your Guru' ?

I heard that a guy who donated large properties to M & DLM in the U.K. is rather lost and penniless now. Do you think M cares about any of these people or you?

It's always a mistake to mistake the Guru for the type of God that knows, loves and understands us all - after all he's human like the rest of us. It's the expectations that let us down. Don't have any expectations about M is the safe way to go.

It really hurts when someone you think is perfect lets you down. This would never happen with anyone else other than someone we were brainwashed early on to believe was perfect and was a Guru with a capital G. Even if now we are told he isn't it's too late the endless brainwashing has grooved our brain cells. Try and get beyond it now. It's never too late.

Take Care Shroom,

Curious George

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 08:23:16 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Jennifers Journey
Message:
yes shroo thats exactly what he claimed - were you there? remember ? not a leaf in the forest moves without his knowing
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:33:08 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Um, excuse me shroom.....
Message:
But aren't you doing here exactly the same thing which you complained to me about earlier?

That is, trying to push a little harder to get to the truth?

You told me that gave you a headache, or something.

So if you really are interested in the truth, as opposed to 'defending anyone' (gee, who could that be we wonder?), perhaps you could start with being truthful about yourself?

Is that too much to ask? I mean, for someone who makes the effort to stress that quality several times in one post, it is quite ridiculous to watch you duck and dodge whenever a question strikes a little too close to the core.

What is it to be shroom? Gonna get real with us or continue to disgrace maharaji by your transparant shallowness?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 08:25:42 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: shroo
Subject: Um, excuse me shroom.....
Message:
but are you trying to make us convince you..?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:53:01 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: My transparent shallowness? To what are you
Message:
referring to, Rob? Is there something in my response to Curious George that is troubling you? What's the prob? When have I avoided anything? I've tried to talk about my experience. You have some kind of agenda. Kind of like a lawyer who is trying to badger a witness to get him to paint the situation the way he wants to see it. I see things the way they are. You want me to see things the way you see them. That ain't going to happen, pal. You see them the way you want. I'll see them the way I want. Okay? Your truth is that Maharaji is an asshole, con-artist and meditation pedlar. I see him as being a teacher who is sincerely trying to offer a way for people to experience inner peace. Your truth is true for you. My truth is true for me. It is not an either/or situation. I respect your right to your views. I have mine. Illusion or reality? Let each decide for themselves.
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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 00:42:40 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: That doesn't work on me shroom,
Message:
That kind of haughty, slightly offended dignity coming from someone like you doesn't phase me or my opinion of you one iota.

The main thing about your arrogant response to Curious george, apart from the arrogance itself, was your repetetive, cynical use of the phrase 'I only seek the truth.'

That is quite simply an outright lie. All you want, and your only reason for your seemingly endless posts here, is to counter any and all criticisms of Rawat, whatever the cost to truth and your own integrity.

When have you avoided anything? Are you kidding? When have you NOT avoided any question which prods at your cosy premie world view? Am I to copy & paste every single question which you have avoided so far? How about I pose a new one, see how you manage to wriggle past this:

What is your purpose for posting on this forum? Be kind enough not to cop out with 'to share my experience'....surely by now you can see that nobody else here wants to hear 'satsang', and in particular *your* bland unrealistic version.

Would you like an opinion poll? I could easily initiate one. Would you insist on 'sharing your experiences' if it was made clear to you that nobody else wanted to hear them? If so, why?

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 02:48:47 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Yeah, well, if people are going to post stuff like
Message:
Curious George posted, I'll respond. I would be glad to have some truth on the suicide issue. You say I'm lying about that. Where's your proof? You guys crack me up. You say things with no basis in fact. Just your anger and blatantly biased views on the subject. Then you post innuendo and hearsay and come to erroneous conclusions. I can understand some of the anger but let's be reasonable. To say that Maharaji is causing people to commit suicide with NO PROOF is ridiculous. Why am I 'lying' when I ask for some substantiation? Give me a break, Freedom Fighter. Go badger someone else. You have no credibility to me. Just some angry words and bitter feelings and a superior attitude. Like you know better. Get real, pal.
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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 21:23:12 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Stupid remark...
Message:
To say that Maharaji is causing people to commit suicide with NO PROOF is ridiculous

In the case of suicide, causal 'proof' is impossible by definition. Causal inference is all anybody has to go on in the case of suicide, and of course there may be many factors. And there is strong evidence that Maharaji's warped teachings may have been a major factor when a premie commits suicide. As much as, say, depression through alcohol-abuse may a reasonable causal assumption when an alcoholic kills him/herself.

(Four premies in ONE community? Shroom. Does that sound like a statistical blip, or something more serious?)

And to not even consider that possiblility suggests you are NOT prepared to discuss the matter openly.

I notice you didn't bother to reply to my 'how much evidence will satisfy you?' post. Your silences are more eloquent than your arguments, in all respects.

(You needn't bother replying now - your resposnses are too evasive, too closed-minded and too damn predictable).

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 08:33:11 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Shroomananda
Subject: My transparent shallowness? To what are you
Message:
are you aware of the blatent lies EV has posted on the press kit? have you compared what he said then to now? they dont mesh, shroo.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 02:43:18 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Jennifers Journey
Message:
Whatsa matter asshole? Didn't you read Jenn's journey? There's another suicide. Also otheres have told similiar sad stories of premie suicides. And yeah, I blame goober for these suicides.

And , asshole, look at EV FAQ's if you want to see an example of assholes in the org who need a lesson in telling the truth.

And yeah, goober IS callous and uncaring.

You're not interested in the truth. You're interested in making that ugly bastard some 'special' person. And yeah, I have listened to the puke recently. It made ME puke.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 01:02:18 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Curious George
Subject: Jennifers Journey
Message:
Who was the Scottish premie who died of an overdose? If you don't want to give his name here you can email it to me if you like. I did used to live in Scotland for some time when I was a premie and got to know a few people.
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Date: Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 19:54:57 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I am going away for a long while.
Message:
So long to friends and foes alike and I must admit I didn't understand I was troubling peace around here.

Jim was right, I am no handsome dark-skinned, curly-aired, rap-singning, cotton-picking dude. No man I ain't. That is true for the love of Djizus. Halleluyah! Amen!

I'm going into the loneliness of the setting sun. If you ever need or want me, just whistle. You know how to whistle don't you? Just put your lips together and blow. Otherwise, ask Jim. He will always know where to find me.

I'll write sometime.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 00:01:13 (GMT)
From: Mahatma Dave Anand Ji
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Yves
Subject: I am going away for a long while.
Message:
Come back soon because I have yet to hear your commentary on the latest tin of Alphabet Soup which I just bought.
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Date: Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 23:00:20 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: I am going away for a long while.
Message:
You really don't need to go, just save up your posts and post one long post instead of fifteen short two-liner posts. That way you'll take up less room. You know that it is a software problem so work around it. And if you feel a need to post the minute a thought enters your mind, save them up on a page on your word processor and then post your accumulated work. No need to shuffle off into the sunset...
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Date: Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 20:34:59 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: a long while?
Message:
oh, alright then.

;)

(just kidding, you space-case)

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Date: Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 20:08:46 (GMT)
From: Comitee of Yves friends
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Please don't do anything drastic
Message:
We love you. Please don't go away. We need you.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 13:57:26 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Comitee of Yves friends
Subject: Okay, I'll stay but remain quiet just to teach you
Message:
That's enough. Would someone please tell a joke.

I was requested to lay my comments in a word file - a diary - and publish it once a month. If I agreed I'm a little hyperactive- which I ain't, wouldn't it be considered a cruel treatment?

I'd like to respond to Billda down below I'm glad I made her smile and to Ki, up-above, Fakiranand, my initiator is reported dead.

See how absurd this is? I'd like the FA to visit another forum at the following address where this type of situation wouldn't occur. If the same software was available, I'd bliss-out in a celestial far-out place deep within inside.

So I sent an email to the National Enquire. The text is under a post below named 'Leaked to the press'. Anyone can do the same. Their email address is there. In my Journey page, I wished the National Enquire would catch him his pants down with money sticking out of his holy hole. (I took the image from a Lou Reed record titled New York. Anyways.) That was two years ago.

Anyone is invited to do the same with any paper. A friend who was active with some support group for ex cult members told me Time magazine did a piece on Scientology a few years back and was so harrased by cult members they decieded never to do an article on any cult again. I don't think it is fair with regards to 'the public right to information'. The same person said some info-cult group was successfully sued by Scientology who got the 'Info-cult' name in return. When anyone find their name in the directory and phones there, some cult member gives them information.

That's all folks. Talk to you in October.

Yves

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:52:14 (GMT)
From: French fry with a Y name
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: This the cycle of... What? Abuse. Right
Message:
There are vicious circles, virtuous circles, cycles of abuse, violence, sleep and bicycles.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 14:31:01 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Oops, I forgot this for the FA
Message:
http://www.voyagez.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=cuba

That's the other forum which has a nice software.

1) Only the first post of every thread is posted.
2) Each time a thread is posted under, it comes back on top. I like it.
3) To read other posts, you have to click on the thread.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 14:19:02 (GMT)
From: hal
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Yves you're hoot- welcome back nt
Message:
bljh
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