Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 13:11:00 (GMT)
From: Oct 10, 2000 To: Oct 15, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Jim -:- This should be fun: guess what her profession is -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:53:28 (GMT)
__ ham -:- Hippy folk singer a la Bridget St John, or Melanie -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:33:02 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- This should be fun: guess what her profession is -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 15:25:14 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Obviously one of the Forum Elves, Jim -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:18:20 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Cheerleader ? nt. -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 00:19:59 (GMT)
__ Steven Quint -:- This should be fun: guess what her profession is -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:35:37 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- She is talking about Melosovich!!??..nt -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:34:23 (GMT)
__ janet of venice -:- ?head injury survivor?psychiatric conservatee? -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:12:43 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Criminal Defense Attorney? (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:06:49 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- VERy, VERy funny, Joe .... hm.....(nt) -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:13:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- I know, amateur musician, probably guitar... (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 17:46:48 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Management Consultant ? nt -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:56:56 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Talking To The Deaf -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:50:51 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Try this Steven -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 12:50:58 (GMT)

I use a nickname here -:- Rawat reported a lousy fuck -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 18:39:42 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- Does anyone have a pic of Monica Lewis or Claudia -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:47:55 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- Does anyone have a pic of Monica Lewis or Claudia -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:50:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet of venice -:- Does anyone have a pic of Monica Lewis or Claudia -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 00:56:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- read about who monica lewis is -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:04:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- 907 Hauser Avenue -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:24:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- 907 Hauser Avenue -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:56:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- you forgot the phone number -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 13:09:30 (GMT)
__ __ GAC -:- Does anyone have a pic of Monica Lewis or Claudia -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:04:34 (GMT)
__ __ janet of venice -:- Navi would be in her young 20's now,and... -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:20:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Yves -:- I wonder if anyone ever told her who her dad is? -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:52:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Eric -:- I wonder if anyone ever told her who her dad is? -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 15:28:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh fuck off! -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 19:32:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Oh fuck off! -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 22:14:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- they are NOT kids! -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:41:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- the kiddies are part of the scam... -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 22:59:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Reply -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:26:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- OK I take it all back but -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:36:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- and what is the IQ test for F5? -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:47:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Freedom of Speech -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:52:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- did I miss something? -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:57:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Now I'm probably really gonna get it -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:42:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- fair enough -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:52:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Justifiable Reasons -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:11:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Eric, is that your real name? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:55:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Eric, is that your real name? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 08:59:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Actually, that was OK -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:31:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Thanks, gerry -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 09:06:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, Eric, that was the devil -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:42:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Nicely said -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:41:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Nicely said -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:50:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yves, do we know this for a fact? -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:33:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- Yes you are missing something -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 16:26:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yves, that is a completely WRONG approach -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 19:37:00 (GMT)

Joe -:- M's Yacht -- Additional Information (also to JM) -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 17:41:28 (GMT)
__ G -:- more on Premo Marine -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:45:44 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- This called for another 'LEAK TO THE PRESS' -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 19:56:04 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Good work, ya' weirdo! (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:10:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Yves -:- See? He did it again. -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:24:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You are so fucking weird. I did NOT do it again! -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:29:32 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- This called for another 'LEAK TO THE PRESS' -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:21:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ sam -:- no-one knows who he is -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 07:17:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Yves -:- I want results -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:14:20 (GMT)
__ __ Yves -:- Manners please. Visitors from press are expected. -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 20:12:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- California Appraisals -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:24:30 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- More on the Yacht -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 18:01:23 (GMT)
__ __ SAM -:- MONEY -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 07:30:32 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- A little more on the Yacht -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:24:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ GAC -:- Why Rhode Island -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:59:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- He also picked a very popular name 'Serenity' -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:16:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- A little more on the Yacht -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:03:50 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- What about the previous one? -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 19:16:06 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Excellent, Joe. The last point is the killer -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 18:28:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Excellent, Joe. The last point is the killer -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 19:13:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sam -:- fundraising -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 07:44:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- Excellent, Joe. The last point is the killer -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:51:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I was in the cult in 1997 -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:00:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- OKAAAYYY ..... so much did M give to EV? -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:06:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- M gives his all to EV! -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:25:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- i want to know about marolyn's aneurism -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:01:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Goober is a busy boy ! -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:37:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh, I see. I didn't realize..... -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:32:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Celebrity Death Match - Shri Hans vs M. ? (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:39:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Maybe he offered free boat rides....... -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:13:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sure, Cognac party cruises -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:16:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Scan everthing and email them to me (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:27:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Roger, Roger (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:33:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Didn't Bill tell you that you had to do that? (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:37:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Wha'ts he gonna do? Report me to his Men's Group? -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:57:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- You're gonna win a free cruise on board Serenity -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:10:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- oh god-a lottery! win a trip with the fat man! -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:31:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No thanks, I want all the party girls of DLM! -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:17:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- This one or her twin sister, Joanie? -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:26:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- geezzzzus what is it with the boobs -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:11:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That isn't you, Selene? -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:38:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hell no -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:45:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, no, not THAT one. The other ones (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:28:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The Bill care package. -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:19:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The Bill care package. -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:27:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The Bill care package. -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:49:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Party! We waited until you had left, Joe. -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:57:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The Bill care package. -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:55:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- You might want to record the tape... -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:13:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sure, that would be great -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:58:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- House of Drek for all the really ugly stuff (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:31:58 (GMT)

Forum Administrator -:- Trial policy changes - your thoughts please -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 17:26:58 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Trial policy changes -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 12:46:34 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- No, that's too indiscriminate -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 19:55:45 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Trial policy changes - your thoughts please -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 20:22:47 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Isn't that a tad too indiscriminate, Selene? -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:41:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rob -:- DD -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:14:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- not thinking real clear right now but.. -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:12:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes and ...... -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:35:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks Jim -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:46:43 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- yes, very good policy! (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:17:38 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Hm........ -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 19:02:05 (GMT)
__ __ ExTex -:- Hm........and double Hmm -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 06:34:44 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- Whatever. You're the boss -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 18:58:10 (GMT)
__ __ barney -:- I remember when... -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:18:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- Phew.. someone who understands.. -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:48:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Yves -:- That don't bother me much -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:29:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I didn't say you were a weirdo, you weirdo! -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:13:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- I ain't weird, I just have my normality challenged -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:36:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- I ain't weird, I just have my normality challenged -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:58:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- Thanks for bringning us back -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 15:34:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yves, we know you are - we've got pictures! (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:56:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- I have a confession.... -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 06:54:50 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:53:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: This should be fun: guess what her profession is
Message:
From ELK, of course.

My guess is Stockbroker. And yours?

And for no reason

And, for no reason
I start skipping like a child.

And, for no reason
I turn into a leaf,
that is carried so high
I kiss the sun's mouth
and I dissolve.

And, for no reason
Aathousand birds
choose my head for a conference table,
start passing their cups of wine
and their wild songbooks all around.

And, for every reason in existence
I begin to eternally,
to eternally laugh and love!

When I turn into a leaf
and start dancing,
I run to kiss our beautiful friend
and I dissolve in the Truth
That I Am.

Eleni Kyriakopoulou
Athens, Greece

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:33:02 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hippy folk singer a la Bridget St John, or Melanie
Message:
, or an undergrounmd Melina Mercouri, record sales throughout her career of greater than 200, but she knows she will be internationally famous and spread the vibes around the world.

Ahh the power of positive thinking.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 15:25:14 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This should be fun: guess what her profession is
Message:
And, for no reason
Aathousand birds
choose my head for a conference table,

I think she's been banging her head on it, myself.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:18:20 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Obviously one of the Forum Elves, Jim
Message:
And, one who has eaten
way too many mushrooms
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 00:19:59 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Cheerleader ? nt.
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:35:37 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Jim
Subject: This should be fun: guess what her profession is
Message:
What,is this Jeopardy? The answer was given before the question. Conference table for birds.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:34:23 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: She is talking about Melosovich!!??..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:12:43 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ?head injury survivor?psychiatric conservatee?
Message:
lsd burnout?deadhead?phish-phood?xtc-overdose?
airhead pinup for our Sugar Daddy?blonde ambition?...
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:06:49 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Criminal Defense Attorney? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:13:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: VERy, VERy funny, Joe .... hm.....(nt)
Message:
ffff
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 17:46:48 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I know, amateur musician, probably guitar... (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:56:56 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Management Consultant ? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:50:51 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Talking To The Deaf
Message:
FYI I posted an email at maharaji.org a couple of months ago insisting that he immediately cease 'giving knowledge'.

I have never received a reply to any of my letters or emails, numbering approximately 15 over the last 18 years, some of which were sent in dire pain and confusion concerning my dire state of mental health and asking for guidance.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 12:50:58 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Try this Steven
Message:
Steven,

If you want to get some attention to your letters to EV, start them like this:

Dear EV,

I am a follower of Maharaji and have recently come into an inheritance of forty million dollars...

Anth the full of good advice

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 18:39:42 (GMT)
From: I use a nickname here
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rawat reported a lousy fuck
Message:
Read all abour Rawat being a Lousy fuck,

Marolyn, Rawat and sister in law Claudia getting it together in divine threesome,

Claudia giving birth to the divine bastard' bastard,

Rawat fucking the shit off the milkmaids.

Marolyn being a real dirty mind blower,

Plus much more. Read first everything which happened behind closed doors and was bound to end-up on the front-page of your favorite grocery store tabloid.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:47:55 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: I use a nickname here
Subject: Does anyone have a pic of Monica Lewis or Claudia
Message:
Monica is known to be a photographer. Did she ever publish?
Any pic of child Claudia had with Fatrat. How old is she now?
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:50:58 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Yves
Subject: Does anyone have a pic of Monica Lewis or Claudia
Message:
What the #### does Monica Lewinsky have to do with this website?
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 00:56:20 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Does anyone have a pic of Monica Lewis or Claudia
Message:
not monica lewinsky, steve. monica lewis. eerie coincidance of names, and roles, but not the same person.
when MJ moved the operation to Miami in79-80, there was a new premie of age 18, named monica lewis that caught his eye. he had her brought to the residence there and at his beckoning, she was invited/seduced in to private sexual time with MJ ,sometimes in three ways with marolyn. marolyn was incensed by the infidelity and embarked on her own trysts with her chauffer and others. you can read about it on another site(i'll post it below.)the liason with monica continues to this day, with marolyn staying home in malibu when MJ takes monica to remote spots with him in other countries.

and for the record, monica lewinsky is reported to be moving to a place conveniently near the Clintons when they leave washington and retire to upstate New York. hmmm..maybe someone ought to approach old slck Willie about receiving Knowledge. he and Mj could trade notes on their respective Monica's. he could be the Utimate PAM.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:04:59 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: steve quint
Subject: read about who monica lewis is
Message:
here is the link to follow to catch up on the players:
Read about Monica Lewis
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:24:16 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: 907 Hauser Avenue
Message:
Rawat, via Seva Corporation, co-owns (with an April Gillam) a $400,00+ house on Hauser Avenue in Los Angeles. I wonder why. There is an April Gillam who lives on Alcott Street, which is near Hauser Avenue.
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:56:29 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: G
Subject: 907 Hauser Avenue
Message:
i put it into yahoo maps and located it. i believe you can manipulate the magnification in or out if you want to. best i can give you right now. what else do you want? wide-angle locus of 907 Hauser
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 13:09:30 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: you forgot the phone number
Message:
April Gillam
8853 Alcott St
Los Angeles, CA 90035
Phone: 310-278-1466

give him a call, see if he knows anything.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:04:34 (GMT)
From: GAC
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Does anyone have a pic of Monica Lewis or Claudia
Message:
Let me look around. In the meantime here's interesting reading on Claudia from an old newspaper I found layin around:

Claudia Garcia, the only daughter of the chief of police in Frankfurt, Germany, came to the U.S. in her early 20s and became intrigued with the child guru, the Maharaj Ji. She ended up marrying the guru's older brother, and found herself suddenly surrounded by wealth and a retinue of servants. In 1979, she moved to Miami for five years, left for Connecticut, got a divorce, and moved back to Miami two years later.

In need of a job, she found work at Neiman Marcus' couture department, and hated it. 'It was like being thrown into a shark pool. It's very competitive. I didn't like selling at all.'
A friend, an interior decorator, offered to take her in and teach her the trade. Claudia's career has soared in the seven years since. Although she does mostly residential design, she has done the interiors of The Grill on Washington Avenue, Thai Tony's, and Portofino, the office building from which fellow German, the eccentric millionaire/developer Thomas Kramer, presides over his real estate empire. She recently sat in on the design huddle -- they called it a 'charette' -- as some of Florida's premier architects dreamed up plans for the redevelopment of the southern-most tip of South Beach -- much of which Kramer now owns. 'It was fabulous,' she says. 'It was a very unique experience. But I'm not used to working so late every night.'

But the charette led to even more late nights: She is working on Kramer's new home on Star Island.

Your trademark?

I really don't want one -- I would be bored to death. I would like to have as much variety as possible. Boredom is a big concern of mine.

Definition of obscenity?

Violence.

Your tragic flaw?

I'm very impatient.

Ultimate goal?

To do something worthwhile, not through interior design, but on a grander scale. To be helpful to other human beings, to be of some use to society, and to raise happy and healthy children.

Greatest fear?

To lose the people I love.

Daily ritual you could do without?

Telephone calls.

Favorite piece of furniture?

I have an ivory box from India, it's an old piece, about a foot long, with pieces of ivory hammered with brass nails. Other than that, I like my bed. I spend a lot of time in bed.

Most noble deed?

When I was 20, I lived in Morocco for almost a year, in the summer residence of a very wealthy man. It was a small village and over time, I got to know my neighbors and I found out about him. He hadn't been treating his neighbors or his family well at all -- he was a selfish SOB. So I paid him very well for the rent, and I took care of his animals. But when we were ready to leave I took all his possessions and gave them away to the people in the valley he had slighted. It was my only true communistic act, it was a spur of the moment thing. There was no way he could ever trace me, but I'm sure he remembers me.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:20:41 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Yves and everybody
Subject: Navi would be in her young 20's now,and...
Message:
i found it damned interesting that when i went to a recent gathering in Marina del Rey to see what Raja Ji had to say to us, he referred to his current living situation as being one of a stay-at-home recluse. he somewhat uncomfortably explained that 'the person with whom i share my life' was always on his case, asking why didnt he get out more and go places, see people and do things, and he replied that he just wasnt interested in it, he liked staying in.

no names. no mention of Claudia, no mention of Navlata. I found that curious and wondered why. now having read the tales, it makes so much more sense. anyone know who the unnamed companon is?

btw, it was a hoot to see that he's lost all his hair. he's as bald as his dad.oh, *tut*.. too bad, so sad!. what happened to all those lovely coal black curls i used to swoon over, 25 years ago? i still have all MY hair-what happened to YOU, little brother??

--gee,--life's a bitch, aint it?

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:52:16 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: I wonder if anyone ever told her who her dad is?
Message:
If she hasn't, it would be fun to let her on this now she's old enough to appreciate what the sex revolution was all about. I doubt baldy Ji is still with Claudia. I gather she vanished but then I may be mistaken. It is weird to think he'd still take care of Fatrat's devotees and business. I know if my brother fucked one of my wives, I'd have a 'E' tatooed on my forehead. 'E' like 'Enough with Edward' which would be what I'd have.
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 15:28:22 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: I wonder if anyone ever told her who her dad is?
Message:
I really do think you should leave the kids out of this. None of them are responsible for the decisions all of us have made to be involved with M and Knowledge. I think it is extremely cruel and bordering on child abuse to want to hurt young people who have no control over who their parents are or the families they are born in to.
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 19:32:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Oh fuck off!
Message:
The kids, if we're not careful, will be the next Holy Family, for God's sake!

These kids became multi-millionaires because of the fraud their parents exerted on us. We have a right to know the whole story, every last bit of it. And if there's a little moeny left over for counselling, they're welcome to it.

But, frankly, there's a much, much bigger scandal here than parentage, isn't there? How do you think Maharaji's kids -- whoever they might be -- will ever sort out the debacle of being born to the LORD OF THE UNIVERSE?

It's gonna take a lot of money to make that pain go away.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 22:14:10 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh fuck off!
Message:
Such a response as 'oh fuck off' to this particular conversation really is damaging to this site.

Don't you think those kids have enough to contend with. That they even have to deal with YOUR projection they could be the next 'Holy Family' is monstrous! Just remember that is YOUR projection, or persception.

To try and dig the dirt on them is child abuse. Why on earth have you become so twisted in your perception of things that you would want to publicly hurt and humiliate young people who have absolutely nothing to do with what this site is supposed to be about?

Remember, everything you ever did in terms of Knowledge and M was on your volition. Nobody forced you in to anything here. You may have been influenced and swayed by your peers but nobody forced anyone in to anything.

It takes a courageous person to stand by their own truth. Often this means not going with the mass. I can honestly I have practiced for 27 years and during this time I have not always gone blindly withh the current party or cult line. I don't rush off to expensive events, I do question things done within the organization and have always done. But I do have the discriminnation to see what is being done by the organization or the 'mass' and what I know to be true within myself.

And humiliating M's kids and niece is definitely way off center.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:41:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: they are NOT kids!
Message:
They are the same age I was when I HAD two kids and became a devotee to the LOTU.
I have to admit it took ages to get free but then again, I didn't have a shitload of money either.
come on.
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 22:59:27 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: the kiddies are part of the scam...
Message:
at least that big titted babe who sings those incestuous songs to daddie dearest.

They know he's no satguru. They know he's really a pompous little

FREAK !!!

BUT THE MONEY'S GOOD...

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:26:12 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Reply
Message:
Once again, I can only say these kind of remarks are only doing this site a dis-service. It is insulting to all of you and what I think the more intelligent people who post here are trying to achieve.
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:36:25 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: OK I take it all back but
Message:
just what are the 'more intelligent people who post here trying to achieve?'

In your humble opinion, of course.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:47:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry re: Eric
Subject: and what is the IQ test for F5?
Message:
Eric it would be interesting to know how you judge that.
Length of words posted? Rule out the and's and the's etc...?
That's what we do in assessment software and I think it is a disservice.
This forum is very emotional at times. We are not robots.
Diversity is the thing that I have always liked about this place even when I hated it.
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:52:30 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Freedom of Speech
Message:
If diversity is what you truly enjoy then enjoy it. Just because I am not angry the same way you are or because I don't blame M for the mistakes I have made in my life doesn't mean this forum should be off-limits to me. A forum is a forum. You surely wouldn't want to build up a structure that can only accept one way of thought (a criticism that is made of premies and Ev). That would not be a true representation of any discussion on this topic.
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:57:05 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: did I miss something?
Message:
Have I tried to kick you off forum?
Anyway, they are not kids.
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:42:47 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Now I'm probably really gonna get it
Message:
I would say, from everything Ihave read, you are really trying very hard to bring M down and cause a lot of trouble!

You all have your own reasons. Some of them probably quite justifiable. But I wonder how many of you have actually been disillusioned or hurt by M himself. Most of it is coming from the disillusionment of your own projections on to him and what he represented to you. And also by the concepts and illusions perpetuated by other people with Knowledge.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:52:49 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: fair enough
Message:
I would say, from everything Ihave read, you are really trying very hard to bring M down and cause a lot of trouble!

Partially correct, the first part that is. We are actually trying to save other people a lot of trouble, not cause it.

You all have your own reasons. Some of them probably quite justifiable.

Yes, of course.

But I wonder how many of you have actually been disillusioned or hurt by M himself. Most of it is coming from the disillusionment of your own projections on to him and what he represented to you. And also by the concepts and illusions perpetuated by other people with Knowledge.

Duh! Why didn't I think of that. It's all the premies fault for their projections (you weren't fooled though) and concepts and stuff.

So tell me, what are some of the 'justifiable reasons' someone have might for wanting to stop Maharaji?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:11:58 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Justifiable Reasons
Message:
Disillusionment.

If you have ever truly believed in a person, trusted them, loved them, given to them whole-heartedly, and they turn out to be total bitch or bastard, in your own estimation, it is quite earth-shattering and mind-blowing. At first you just cannot believe that you could be so taken in and then you get angry and then, if you want to become neurotic about it, you can do all kinds of things to try and bring them down.

Everyone has their own reasons. But the general drift seems to be disillusionment. Whatever it was you thought you were going to get didn't happen.

But I really do believe, and I certainly don't want to sound pedantic, Knowledge is a lot simpler than that. I don't think we will ever 'get' anything from Knowledge in that sense. It is really just a feeling that's all. And the rest of it M, EV, all the discussion is actually totally irrelevant once you close you eyes and go within.

I know you're really gonna like that!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:55:12 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Eric, is that your real name?
Message:
If Eric isn't your real name would you mind changing your psuedonym?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 08:59:13 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Eric, is that your real name?
Message:
Susan ... does my name bother you??? Oh god, that's classic. Yes, it is my name!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:31:35 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Actually, that was OK
Message:

It's just a feeling? Really? What happened to god realization and enlightenment?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 09:06:19 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks, gerry
Message:
Gerry, to tell you the honest truth I don't know about that. I really don't. I don't even know what God is. But I do know that when someone I was very close to died recently the feeling that filled the room, the warm glow that infiltrated the atmosphere, the deep peace that fell like a blanket was definitely the peace that is beyond all understannding, the deep love that I felt with every precious breath I could take, was the love that is beyond all understanding.

And that same feeling, that same love and deep peace is what I feel inside when I practice. It was one and the same. So I cannot say anything about God, but I can say from my own experience the same power and love that pushes life out in to the world is the same power and love that we disappear in to when we go. Is that God - you tell me ... I don't know

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:42:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: No, Eric, that was the devil
Message:
How about your mind, perhaps?

Ever occur to you?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:41:42 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Nicely said
Message:
So I cannot say anything about God, but I can say from my own experience the same power and love that pushes life out in to the world is the same power and love that we disappear in to when we go. Is that God - you tell me ... I don't know

I don't know either. And how is your meditative experience proof of this?

And Eric, I didn't call you stupid--arrogant was the word I used. I find your statement that ashram premies were mal-adjusted misfits seeking to shirk the responsibilities in life highly offensive. I was really surprised noone else took you to task for it. But this 'blaming of the premies' is so endemic that perhaps it was merely water off the duck's back.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:50:42 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Nicely said
Message:
I can't say my meditative experience is proof of anything, except that I was present at my son's birth and I was present at his death and I am present during my practice, it was all one, birth, life, death, breath. It really was. This is not something that I am making up. It was probably the most powerful expereince I have ever had and has totally changed my perspective and way of looking at things.

I apologise if I have insulted any of you but I have to say that during my short sojourn in the ashram that was my experience. Many of the people trying to live a lifestyle they weren't really ready for. All lining up because of a spritiual concept. Alot of secret fucking going on, a lot of secret everything going on. People unable to go out in to the 'world' to work because they were so sensitive, a lot of people feeling ill and developing all kinds of weaknesses because they were so sensitive. I mean it was a joke.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:33:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Yves, do we know this for a fact?
Message:
Yves,

My recollection is that Bill first told us this rumour, that the Hamster had impregnated Claudia with her first, a couple of years ago but that there's no further proof one way or the other.

Unless you've got some further evidence, I don't see how you can treat this allegation as fact.

Am I missing something?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 16:26:19 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes you are missing something
Message:
Say, you are in public. On TV or in a criminal court of justice and I ask you 'Have you stopped beating your wife yet?' Before you hear 'Objection your honnor!', something have been achieved. In that sense, questions, when used efficiently, are very powerful.

I question who Nevlata's dad is. Isn't that question legitimate long before a DNA test was to be provided. In fact, the question itself is more important than the test results. It states whoever asks the question's uneasiness with Rawat's warped sense of ethics. Now going to bed with Claudia isn't something I'd find objectionable given all the adults involved - including Rajaji - were consenting AND the opportunity AND a condom, I certainly wouldn't have fussed long. What I find objectionable is the false pretense of sainthood which is present here as in many aspects of Rawat's life. I find it important to voice it.

Nevlata is now an adult and certainly has heard the rumors by now. She may be hurt by my voicing them OR she may find it interesting to be hinted to yet another family secret. I am not concerned by damage breaking this secret may cause her. Given the immense advantages she got from belonging to a rich-and-famous family, she has to accept the inconvenience of being a celebrity. Family portaits may be revealing and her cousins, which may very well be her half-brothers and sisters, may be concerned as well and provide a drop of blood for the DNA test. Nudge-nudge, wink-wink. Say-no-more, say-no-more.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 19:37:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Yves, that is a completely WRONG approach
Message:
Okay, you question whether or not Maharaji sired Nevlata. Fine. Question it.

Here's how you ask a question:

'Does .......?' or 'How ......?', that kind of thing.

But you're not questioning that allegation at all. You're assuming it as a fact and that isn't fair.

Really, Yves, imagine for a second that it isin't true. Don't you see how unfounded allegations like that -- broadcast without qualification -- only hurt this site, not help it?

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 17:41:28 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M's Yacht -- Additional Information (also to JM)
Message:
I have to say, I'm very impressed with what G and others found about Maharaji's multi-million dollar yacht (Serenity). (Whether it's worth $7 million, or ONLY $6.5 million is kind of beside the point.) I'm also impressed that JM continues as the ex-premie archivist, historian, and keeper of proof, that is just so important. You are a real treasure JM, and I really appreciate you recording all this information that gets accumulated here.

Anyhow, I was looking over the corporate documentation of the front corporation that owns the yacht, Premo Marine, Inc, which is a Rhode Island Corporation, and I noted that JM has on the ex-premie website that the 'usual suspects' once again appear, such as John Bale and the ubiquitous Robert Jacobs of the Milbank firm. This led us to believe that this is, indeed Maharaji's yacht.

I wanted to add that listed as 'Secretary' of Premo Marine is Mary E. Holle. I just wanted to mention that Mary and I received knowledge in the very same knowledge session in 1973. Mary and I actually trecked to Omaha, Nebraska and received knowledge one Spring afternoon from Mahatma Vijayand, a little guy who later rejected Maharaji as a fraud.

Mary was from Des Moines, Iowa, and I later lived in ashrams with her in a couple of cities. She was always a DLM/Elan Vital corporate type. She also worked for awhile at DECA, but was banised to the provinces for awhile after an affair with an ashram brother. She is a very nice person, but one of the most zealous, committed (or perhaps indoctrinated) premies I ever knew. I'm sure she has proved her loyalty to Maharaji to the extent that he would trust her with being secretary of the corporation that 'owns' his yacht for him, the 'beneficial owner.'

Anyhow, the existence of Mary as Secretary of Premo Marine, is more evidence to which I can personally testify, that this is indeed a cult corporation fronting the ownership of an obscenely luxurious yacht that Maharaji desperately needs to spread knowledge to the unhappy people of the world. [Sorry for the sarcasm; just couldn't help it.]

JM, if you get the chance, please add Mary Holle to your 'Serenity' section on the website. Lots and lots of premies and ex-premies know Mary, and so it will be obvious that Premo is a cult corporation.

Also, I think Kathleen Gliebe, who is listed as President of Premo, may be Maharaji's personal secretary. Her address is listed on the Rhode Island Corporate documents as '31334 Anacapa View Drive, Malibu, California.' Isn't this the address of that delapidated 'residence' that Maharaji lives in, when he isn't in another 'residence' someplace else in the world, that is?

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:45:44 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: more on Premo Marine
Message:
From www.knowx.com, result of an 'Owners and Officers' search, unfortunatly it doesn't give the owner:

Detail Record, Tuesday, October 10, 2000
----------------------------------------

Name: PREMO MARINE INC.
Filing State: RI
Corporate ID Number: 94635
Type: CORPORATION (PROFIT)
Status: ACTIVE/IN GOOD STANDING
Date of Incorporation: 04-17-1997

Address Type: UNKNOWN ADDRESS TYPE
Address: RI,

Address Type: REG. AGENT ADDRESS
Name: LAURIE KIRBY
Address: 2700 HOSPITAL TRUST TOWER, PROVIDENCE, RI 02903

Address Type: MAILING ADDRESS
Address: 2700 HOSPITAL TRUST TOWER, PROVIDENCE, RI 02903

Officer Name: JACOBS, ROBERT A
Title: DIRECTOR
Address: 40 FIFTH AVENUE, APT. 5B, NEW YORK, NY 10011

Officer Name: GLIEBE, KATHLEEN M
Title: PRESIDENT
Address: 31334 ANACAPA VIEW DRIVE, MALIBU, CA 90265

Officer Name: LAURIE KIRBY
Title: REG AGENT
Address: 2700 HOSPITAL TRUST TOWER, PROVIDENCE, RI 02903

Corporate Detail Record, Tuesday, October 10, 2000
--------------------------------------------------

(some of the info above)

Event: STOCK
AUTHORIZED QUANTITY:1000
VALUE OF STOCK:$ 10
PAR VALUE:$ 0.0100

PRINCIPAL RI PHONE: 401-849-7800

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 19:56:04 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: This called for another 'LEAK TO THE PRESS'
Message:
Complete with pictures of Rawat, yacht, aiplane and blueprint of Malibu mansion, this is what it contained.

It was emailed to:
Journal de Montréal
La Presse
Radio-Canada
Dateline
Federation canadienne des journalistes indépendants
The Gazette
MSNBC
National Enquirer
Newsweek
Time
Time daily
Time-webletters
Toronto star
Voir
Washington post

Guru Maharaj ji (born December 10 1957) is a self-proclaimed “incarnation of God” that made it big during the 70's and 80's when he claimed a few million followers. In 1973, his organization rented the Houston Astrodome for a three days extravaganza they advertised as 'The most significant event in the history of mankind'. A videotape shot for PBS is available on Amazon.com.

Guru, now rich beyond imagination, owns a 7 000 000$, 108 feet yacht,

http://www.westportyachts.com/ieyachtstart.htm

a 25 000 000$ private jet

a Malibu. California residence of unknown market value,

http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/malibu.htm

and much more.

Many ex-followers who participate in an Internet discussion group now established and documented alleged occurrences of rape, pedophile activities and abuses which occured during past decades. Most wished press organization would bring this into the limelight and question their former master’s legitimacy as head of a “non-profit and charitable” organization since tax-payer’s dollars seem to be used to finance this extravagant life-style.

Related Internet links

http://www.ex-premie.org/forum5/main.cgi
Discussion group where ex-cult members trade information and comments

Where videotape shot by PBS in 1973 can be ordered on Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00001OX01/o/qid=968250633/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_v_1_3/102-5741595-6330552

Information about one of Mararaji’s private jets.
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/lear55.htm
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/pilot.htm

Blueprint of Maharaji’s Malibu mansion
http://ex-premie.org/pages/malibu.htm

Lists of links to some webpages about Maharaji
http://www.geocities.com/notmaharaji/Links/homepage.htm
http://ex-premie.org/pages/links.htm

Sites maintained by ex-cult-members with tons of information
http://ex-premie.org/index.htm
http://perso.club-internet.fr/jmkahn/index.html
http://www.oz.net/~drek/
http://www.geocities.com/notmaharaji/Truth/truth.htm
http://www.geocities.com/notmaharaji/Links/homepage.htm

Site where sexual abuses and cover-up by cult is exposed.
http://www.geocities.com/notmaharaji/Truth/Abuse/abuse.htm

A photograph of Jagdeo the alleged pedophile.
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/jagdeo.htm

FAQs page from Maharaji’s recently edited webpage.
http://www.elanvital.org/faq_opposing_views.htm

Satpal. Maharaji’s estranged brother named Balbagwan Ji in the 1973 videotape
http://www.manavdharam.org/index.html

Sarlo’s guru rating service
http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/RatingsLM.htm

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:10:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Good work, ya' weirdo! (nt)
Message:
gggg
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:24:23 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: See? He did it again.
Message:
That's no way to talk to an regular-ass-head. I am 'normal-in-my-own-way'. I want it to be known I benefit from normality-challege and want it to be respected.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:29:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: You are so fucking weird. I did NOT do it again!
Message:
God Yves,

If I wan'ted to call you a weirdo don't you think I'd just come right out and say it?

What are you? Nuts or something?

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:21:30 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: This called for another 'LEAK TO THE PRESS'
Message:
I hope your efforts bear fruit. I've contacted similar publications and institutions, but there is very little interest in Rawat.

(And thanks for your response on the French Forum).

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 07:17:46 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Way
Subject: no-one knows who he is
Message:
except for us and them (and diminishing daily apparently). I dont think many people in the world know who he is. I just did 'internet chat' last 2 days for 1st time and whenever an indian person buzzed me ,I couldn't help mentioning 'the man' and no-one at all had ever heard of him. He may have thought he was going to be a big fish- but not! Small fish in a luxury tank tho'.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:14:20 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: I want results
Message:
One of these days, I'll learn to operate a page and will have my collection of 'Leaks to the press' posted. Meanwhile interest from media has to be stimulated. Sending them regularly emails is one way of doing it. It makes a difference in the long haul. Thanks for joining-in.

I beleive in getting folks to act by annoying them to the point they wish I'd get off their back. I get store-clerks service by breathing on their neck while they make beleive they don't see me. Passed closing time, when they haven't served me yet, I put my pijama on.

Jim called me 'weird'. MD said 'uncle'. If I was Fatrat, I'd offer to buy my silence. A few grands is cheap given what's at stake for 'lousy fuck'.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 20:12:37 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Manners please. Visitors from press are expected.
Message:
Anyone from California could get municipal appraisal on Malibu residence? My bet is 20 millions. How much am I off?
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:24:30 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: California Appraisals
Message:
You could go to the County Recorder's Office and look up the appraised value of the house listed there. But that's appraised value just for tax purposes, which are notoriously low, well below market value, at least in California. If the house hasn't been sold or refinanced in a long time, the amount shown on the County Recorder records are probably low. But they would still be worth seeing. Anybody in So. Cal. care to visit your civil servants?
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 18:01:23 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: More on the Yacht
Message:
Okay, some information as we currently have it:

1. Serenity, the 106-foot,$7 million yacht Maharaji owns was built in 1997.

2. The officers of the front corporation that holds title to the yacht, Premo Marine, Inc. are long-time devotees of Maharaji and the 'director' of Premo is Robert Jacobs, who is lawyer for both Maharaji and Elan Vital.

3. Premo Marine was incorporated on April 17, 1997.

4. The latest Annual Report we have for Premo is dated June, 10, 1999, signed by John Bale, who is Vice President. As of yesterday, 10/09/00, Premo remains an active corporation, according to Rhode Island Secretary of State documents.

5. So, it appears that the yacht was purchased in 1997, for who knows how much money. From what I recall, during that time period, we are told that Maharaji was hitting up the premies for money for Amaroo, as well as other 'projects.' He also held an international program at Amaroo in 1997 (at which he gave darshan, maybe because he needed money for that big boat.)
In addition, both Elan Vital and people on behalf of Maharaji were hitting up the premies generally about the need for money. He also cancelled programs during this period, supposedly for lack of money.

6. It appears that Maharaji has kept the existence of the yacht a secret from the premies, including that he was buying this monstrosity at the same time he was hitting up his followers for money.

What does this say about the former Lord of the Universe?

Does anyone have anything to add?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 07:30:32 (GMT)
From: SAM
Email: -
To: Joe
Subject: MONEY
Message:
not very relevent, but I'm still on mailing list and all it really is, is a request for money. Last one I got was pushing the products and then a statement about how very much monetary support was needed at the moment , so please contribute. I'd post it but I threw it out... next month.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:24:00 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A little more on the Yacht
Message:
. The latest Annual Report was signed on 3/31/00.

. Why Rhode Island? To make it harder to trace? Does he also have a sailboat?

. More on Seva Marine

. From U.S. Coast Guard - Port State Information eXchange:

Port State Information eXchange
PSIX Version 1.0
Data Current As Of: 31 August 2000

Vessel Information
Vessel, VIN, RBS Hull #, Flag, Year Built:
SERENITY, D1051618, WPS07618E597, USA, 1997

Vessel Particulars
Service, Length, Breadth, Depth:
RECREATIONAL, 106.00 ft, 22.70 ft, 13.40 ft

Tonnage Information
Gross Tons, Net Tons, ITC Gross Tons:
216, 172, 178

Vessel Documents and Certifications
Document, Agency, Date Issued, Expiration Date:
DOCUMENTATION CERTIFICATE, USCG, May 12, 1997, May 31, 2001

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:59:50 (GMT)
From: GAC
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Why Rhode Island
Message:
Hi G,

You said, '. Why Rhode Island? To make it harder to trace?

Exactly! Next time you're at KnowX look under Marine Vessel Ownership - Rhode Island and you'll see that Rhode Island is the one state that does not report this information.

Bobby Jacobs knows his corporate two steppin inside and out.

Gac

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:16:57 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: GAC
Subject: He also picked a very popular name 'Serenity'
Message:
See Boat Names Directory

'Serenity' was the most popular name in 4 out of 9 years.

Maybe another attempt to conceal ownership, to make it harder to track down. My search on 'Serenity' resulted in 493 matches, without the tip 'Newport', it would have been difficult to narrow it down.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:03:50 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: A little more on the Yacht
Message:
Thanks, G. All this is very helpful.

I don't know why Premo was incorporated in Rhode Island. It is probably because the boat has the home port of Newport, Rhode Island. This is a HUGE boat, and very few marinas would be equipped to handle it. As we know, Newport, Rhode Island is the hope of the fabulously wealthy, like the Vanderbilts, etc., and probably has the facilities and services for a boat of that size. There aren't very many people with boats like that. In addition to the cost of buying them, they are very, very expensive to maintain.

I'm sure M probably also keeps it in Florida at times, and maybe even on the West Coast, but keeping the home port at Newport.

It looks like Seva Marine is inactive and Premo replaced it. Maybe Seva owned the Wadi Sue and a new corporation was set up for the new yacht. It looks that way because it's mainly the same people. However, Seva might still be around and being used to own something else. God only knows what other stuff Maharaji is hiding in shell corporations. Maybe he has another yacht as well. I wouldn't be surprised.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 19:16:06 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What about the previous one?
Message:
named Wadi Sue.

It looks like it was owned by the previous corporation, and very likely got sold before the Serenity was purchased.

Is there a way to find its track ?


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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 18:28:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Excellent, Joe. The last point is the killer
Message:
6. It appears that Maharaji has kept the existence of the yacht a secret from the premies, including that he was buying this monstrosity at the same time he was hitting up his followers for money.

This clearly enters the contest of 'most damning fact about the Hamster.' But what's the proof? We need to hear from some of the more recent exes about how the yacht was not discussed. I'm not holding my breath for evidence of any overt lies about it, such as that, when asked, Maharaji or any of his lackies expressly denied the acquisition (although such evidence would make this fact a very strong contender in the aforementioned contest), but I do think that there'll be all sorts of evidence of tacit misrepresentation. In other words, evidence of Maharaji et al. suggesting that 'times were tough' when all the while this shit was going on.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 19:13:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Excellent, Joe. The last point is the killer
Message:
I doubt Maharaji has expressly lied about the existence of the yacht, and I'm sure there are a number of premies who know about it. Someone posted that John Miller talked freely about how blissed out he was to pilot the yacht as some kind of service (I mean 'participation).

When I was a premie, Maharaji had the 'Wadi Sue', which was his yacht that he kept in Miami. It was a very nice yacht and worth a lot of money, but it wasn't 106 feet long, maybe 30-40 feet, and maybe it was worth a couple of hundred grand. Also, the premies got Maharaji a cabin cruiser as a wedding gift in 1974 when he married Marolyn, but that was also a smaller boat.

I think it's more likely that he just doesn't mention the yacht. Probably most premies wouldn't be surprised he HAS a yacht. I mean, most of them know he lives really well. What the probably don't know is that the thing cost so damn much money. $7 million is obscene for a yacht. I mean, it's just outrageous, and it can't be excused like a plane that he claims he uses for his 'work.' No way.

So, I'm sure he made a decision basically to not mention any of his expensive toys, or at least to not emphasize them. But I think he has such a Marie Antoinette complex that he lets things slip, like his 'watch collection.' Also, I remember him flippantly talking about his new Ferrari to ashram premies. He was so out of touch, he didn't even realize how weird that was.

And I'm sure that his fundraisers like Yoram Weiss, who I understand has the job of raising money on the sly, not for Elan Vital, but for Maharaji personally, doesn't mention the yacht, or if he does, the doesn't mention how much it's worth.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 07:44:49 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Joe
Subject: fundraising
Message:
I've known yoram to focus fundraising on very entrenched prems and it doesn't always go thru the mainstream. They focus on prems with money who regularly will give a lump sum for a special project and these people are regularly asked for certain amounts for 'importamnt financing'.They also ask very few questions as they are made to feel special.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:51:27 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Excellent, Joe. The last point is the killer
Message:
i thought you were referring to the last point being killer when you siad 'god only knows how many other shell corporations he has and what secret operations they are hiding'. actually, god is not the only one who knows. Maharaji knows. his immediate co-conspirators know. the named agents who execute those shell corporations know. everyone he demands results from, knows full well what they are doing and why they are taking such elaborate charades to conceal it. that's a huge net of deceit,deliberately committed in intentional evasion.

if the press or the law enforcement agencies are reading this, get cracking, you guys. you have the power that we do not. and those millions that have evaded seizure could finally be returned to their original donors and rightful receivers.

except, sadly, for the suicides...

i keep thinking of the time in the miami convention center when maharaji ridiculed the delusions of that cartoon character, saying he thought he was Somebody while he had amnesia. the line he kept repeating was

'MY name is Ewmer Fudd. I own a mansion and a Yacht'

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:00:17 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Joe
Subject: I was in the cult in 1997
Message:
Yes, I remember the fund raisers with Yoram Weiss and maybe others around 1997, my last calendar year in the cult. I believe most of the fund raising pitches at that time were about Amaroo and probably the Knowledge Centers that Maharaji wanted to build throughout the world. And, indeed, a Knowledge Center was built in Amaroo, but judging by the videos the structure was relatively modest and nothing to get really excited about. Nevertheless, the idea of Knowledge Centers struck a chord in the hearts of premies and therefore was a good strategy. A good question to ask is how many other Knowledge Centers have been built? Offhand, I'd say none.

And if I recall correctly one of the major themes of the fund raising was how Elan Vital was on the verge of shutting down. They showed charts and graphs of the dire situtation. They showed breakouts of the number of people contributing monthly in various dollar amounts and by the various means (e.g. checks, pre-signed checks on account with EV, credit card, direct debit.) Clearly, the intent was to push as many as possible into the Direct Debit mode. I remained sending in checks in the envelopes that EV sent me. I did not trust EV enough to give them the Direct Debit authority. I could just imagine them making an 'honest mistake' and debiting my account two or three times.

As for myself, I sure didn't know anything about a yacht. I knew a few high placed premies, but I never heard about it.

Also, you need to consider that by 1997 most, if not all, of the renovation of the dilipidated Malibu home was complete with the exception, perhaps, of the deluxe and most holy recording studio. So, at this point in time Maharaji probably had excess cash that was burning a hole in his pocket.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:06:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: OKAAAYYY ..... so much did M give to EV?
Message:
God, Rog, it sounds like things were tough all over. Ev almost shutting down and all.

So how much did Rawat give EV then?

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:25:19 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: M gives his all to EV!
Message:
I'm not sure if it was just my own perception or a general perception achieved through the EV PR machine, but I believed that Maharaji was always on the job working to further the mission given to him by Shri Hans, his beloved father.

Some of the statistics put forth by EV in those days included how many miles (something like 350,000) Maharaji had flown that year and how many countries he had visited and how many programs he attended. Elan Vital also cited how many invitations to speak Maharaji had received. And they would specifically cite those from exotic countries in South Africa, China, or Slovenia. I think that Mili probably was responsible for many. With such demand for Maharaji and his inability to accept all invitations Elan Vital was demonstrating to premies how thinly stretched things were and presented the possibilities of just how much could really happen if and only if Maharaji had more money to further his never-ending thankless task of spreading Knowledge.

In those numbers though, I think there was some double counting in the usual EV fashion because it seemed that Maharaji was over-extended. Typically, a program that M would attend would include two sessions per day in the same hall - late morning and evening. I think that EV would count that as two separate events. And, of course, a weekend program would have some 5, 6 or even 7 separate events. It's not like they had to fly the jet each time, but EV never mentioned that.

And, indeed, the EV PR machine would throw in comments about how exhausted Maharaji was from it.

Also, as sick as this might sound I believe that the Marolyn brain aneurysm was a great publicity boon because Maharaji was in South America at the time and he single-handedly remotely engineered getting Marolyn from a substandard hospital to the very best in the region for the proper care. Uh, we are talking Southern California here. Let me make that perfectly clear - Maharaji was in South America and Marolyn was in Southern California. (I know I'm going to get clobbered by that foul mouthed Texan or wherever he's from here for mentioning the Holy Family.) But, this example of how much Maharaji sacrificed of himself for the premies was very much celebrated by Elan Vital, the premies, and later Maharaji himself at a public program.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:01:54 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: i want to know about marolyn's aneurism
Message:
where can i read about it? or will one of you tell me everything you know about who, when, why, what,where, how it happened? i thought i was in the loop, but obviously, i must have broken much further away by then than i realized! i never even knew about this( her aneurism) until i read it here on the forum!!

so--tell me the tale?

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:37:20 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Goober is a busy boy !
Message:
didn't any of those premie dopes ever do the math on these EV figgers?

Shit, 350,000 miles in one year is almost a thousand miles a day!

Yeah, right.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:32:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Oh, I see. I didn't realize.....
Message:
So even though EV was sinking financially and Maharaji was secretly buying multi-million dollar toys, he was giving it his all.

You know, I know this might sound crazy, but sometimes I jush wish Shri Hans was around to give this little runt shit. Okay, let them all beat each other up a bit then throw the whole bag of snakes into the water. First I'd like to see a little internecine warfare though. Where's Mata Ji when we need her?

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:39:08 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Celebrity Death Match - Shri Hans vs M. ? (nt)
Message:
adsf
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:13:09 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maybe he offered free boat rides.......
Message:
My understanding was the Yoram Weiss and some others, did the 'covert' fundraising. You know, the illegal stuff, when they utilized Elan Vital 'events' to hit up the premies for money for Maharaji personally, or for stuff Maharaji wanted. I have heard people talk about conference calls that Yoram and others have had in which he and others suggested that people give stock to Maharaji, etc.

Then, in addition to that, there was the 'overt' fundraising, in which Elan Vital representatives hit up the premies for on-going support for 'events' and to 'promote Maharaji's teachings.'

I think these were two different things. The first one, is never talked about publicly.

Hey, maybe Amtext bought the Yacht for Maharaji.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:16:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sure, Cognac party cruises
Message:
One thing I didn't mention is that Bill sent me the ugliest picture of Maharaji I've ever seen. He's wearing his 'Captain' jacket and is standing by one of his jets. You've got to see this thing. God, the guy really is ugly, no question about it.

What should I do with it?

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:27:34 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Scan everthing and email them to me (nt)
Message:
adsf
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:33:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Roger, Roger (nt)
Message:
ffff
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:37:34 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Didn't Bill tell you that you had to do that? (nt)
Message:
adsf
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:57:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Wha'ts he gonna do? Report me to his Men's Group?
Message:
I didn't sign nothing.

But we'll see what we can do.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:10:04 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: You're gonna win a free cruise on board Serenity
Message:
If you do not do exactly as we tell you, Jim, you will have the misfortune of 'winning' a free one week cruise aboard an unnamed private megayacht out of Newport, R.I. sailing through the beautiful Bahamas. Airfare is included.

Other than the crew the only other guest will be none other than Sanford H. Pass and your old friend, Deputy Dog.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:31:08 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: oh god-a lottery! win a trip with the fat man!
Message:
dont go giving Jabba the Hut ideas! next thing you know, he'll be selling lottery tickets for a drawing to win a cruise with him on his yacht! you know the odds on those things? one winner aand thousands of entry purchases?

i can see the wheels turning in his head already--
'hey! what a great idea! i can rig it! tell the premies to submit a full length photo of themselves with each entry! then i can pick out the gorgeous girls i wanna take to bed and have one win, every month! whatta setup! yeah! the money will roll in! who wouldnt wanna have ME???? Yoram--get right on it!!'

i bet his little pee-pee gets all hard, just thinkin about it!...
(by the way, guys--you DO know that fat guys, no matter HOW long they are, look teensy because of their big bellies dwarfing the size of their endowments? heh heh)

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:17:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: No thanks, I want all the party girls of DLM!
Message:
shp and Dog can cook but I want some real company.

Give me the party girls of DLM! The backroom girls. You know the ones.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:26:02 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: This one or her twin sister, Joanie?
Message:
Halloween Devo
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:11:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: geezzzzus what is it with the boobs
Message:
Every other time I click on one of your links I have to see that same pair of fucking ugly boobs.
eeessshhhh

Selene- extra tissue sent to pathology several years ago!!

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:38:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: That isn't you, Selene?
Message:
I mean, the hat? The whip? That's not you?

Sorry ..... :)

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:45:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: hell no
Message:
I knew when to 'stop the cycle'. At least in that respect.
If only my common sense with cults, men, etc.. matched my vanity

whips, etc.... well, I had to do all that for a research project for the English dept. I can proove it dammit.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:28:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: No, no, not THAT one. The other ones (nt)
Message:
dddd
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:19:39 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Bill care package.
Message:
Bill said he sent you a tape of Joan Apter or somebody at some kind of 'roast' in which they talk about the time Maharaji was frightened by a naked woman on a bed. I guess Joan says she was actually there at the time, persumably fully clothed.

He said you would send them to me after you are done. Did he send you tapes?

Any good pictures to put on the website?

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:27:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Bill care package.
Message:
So let me get this straight:

After years of false promises, Bill finally sends me a few things and, in the process, without consultation, obliges me to then copy and send them on again myself, crossing that stupid border where everything gets lost.

Did I miss anything?

Okay, okay, I'll listen to the tape -- and I'll copy the tape -- and I'll mail you the tape .....

I'll listen to it today.

As for pictures, he sent me a couple. One of Maharaji and Marolyn behind a bottle of something or other at some banquet. She looks a little bleary-eyed.

But then there's the one I was just telling you about, the super duper ugly one. I'll get it scanned and ... well, who should I send it do? It deserves special placement here. It's that ugly.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:49:16 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Bill care package.
Message:
Jim,

You don't have to copy the tape, you can just send it to me after you listen to it -- unless you want a copy for yourself, of course.

I'd like to see the 'banquet' picture. I'm curious about the so-called 'party period' from about 1985 - 1990, when M had these 'dinner parties' and shit with the premies. Sounds like the bottle picture was from one of those things.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:57:23 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Joe
Subject: Party! We waited until you had left, Joe.
Message:
Yes, I was at one of those dinner parties in Miami.

I believe that there was wine and everything.

And Hansi told the 'Melts in Your Mouth - Not in Your Hands' joke.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:55:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Bill care package.
Message:
How about if I scan the pics and send them to Roger? And what if I actually transcribe the tape? Would that suffice?
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:13:54 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: You might want to record the tape...
Message:
I'm sorry, but who is the speaker? I'm wondering if there might not be some really good small and short excerpts that might warrant putting onto the web.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:58:03 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: Sure, that would be great
Message:
I've included my email if you need my address.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:31:58 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: House of Drek for all the really ugly stuff (nt)
Message:
asdf
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 17:26:58 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Trial policy changes - your thoughts please
Message:
I have decided I might have to change at least one aspect of forum policy to be able to keep doing this job. I find Forum Administrating a satisfying form of anti-service to the Hamster, and hope to do it for a good while yet (unless I am unseated by some Serb-style popular uprising..) The trouble is, the no 'multi-alias' rule has become unworkable, and a couple of other changes might be useful.

Multi-alias posting

I am spending too much time checking the IP's of suspected multi-alias posters, then requesting they stop doing it. Three problems:

(1) They take no notice

(2) Ex-premies take second aliases almost as much as premies, and whether or not the intention is to deceive (as has been the case with some persistant premie offenders), the effect is to create an impression of double standards unless I were to censure all posters using a second or third alias. If I did this, some second-alias regulars including the Rev H-Smyth, Larkin, Elan Vital, Pauline Premie, Ted Farkel etc might get fed up and disappear.

(3) Blocking has limited effect on a determined forum addict. It creates further work for me to go through the process of identifying, warning then banning - only to start the whole thing all over again when they reappear a week later under a new ID, possibly with a new ISP.

So, for a trial period and possibly long-term, I will just say: 'Call yourself whatever you like and your posts will not be edited or removed unless they break some other guideline.'

At the same time, I will reserve the right to 'out' any second alias poster who is clearly trying to deceive the exes and restart a debate they have already exhausted before under a different alias. (By 'out', I don't mean giving away their real-life identity, even if I know it - just their former forum incarnations. However if the poster is 'out' already, ie. has posted to the forum before using their real name, then I will certainly say so).

And having said I will not take any action for simply using a second alias - I would still prefer people to stick with one alias as far as possible. Thanks.

(And please stop typing through the 'name' box. Ta.)

Threats

Posts containing real or implied threats will be removed.

Using someone else's alias

Ditto.

Posts giving away another person's identity, their address, phone or other personal details without their knowledge or consent.

Ditto

Off-topic posts

Should be marked 'ot'. Some discretion may be needed here since, on the one hand, we don't want a general-interest chat-room which obscures the forum's main purposes, and on the other there are all sorts of philosophical, psychological, religious and political etc issues which have obvious relevance to the lives of many ex-premies.

Since removing threads is invariably contentious, in the interests of openness deleted threads will now be reposted on Anything Goes (since not much else seems to be happening there these days...!)

Threads started to attack another forum participant

If these are nothing more than abuse or some long-running personality clash of no wider interest than to the combatants (as opposed to picking up on an on-topic thread that has gone inactive), they will be moved to AG.

Unintelligible garbage / spam threads

There are probably many more of these than people protesting 'freedom of speech' realise. These too will henceforth be moved to Anything Goes (but I will not spam AG with bulk mail)

Posts discussing forum policy

Again, we prefer to deal with complaints etc by email. I (or my part-time assistant) will always reply to emails sent to forumfour@hotmail.com - though, depending on the size of the inbox, might not always do so immediately. I realise this might seem unnecessarily secretive, but complaints or comments you might want to air in public can also be raised on Anything Goes - and I don't mind replying there.

Hogging the forum

This is a bit of a grey area - and one in which I think it is perfectly reasonable to apply different rules for premies as for ex-premies. Our starting position ought to be that exes post here as of right, while for premies it is a privilege. As such I believe excessive posting by individual premies can be highly disruptive - as do clearly many forum members.

(When I recently restricted Shroom to three posts per day with a total daily wordcount not exceeding 1000 words, this seemed to be a popular measure - and one which might be used again.)

I hope none of these changes seem too heavy-handed or, to others, over-tolerant, but I want to introduce them (a) to keep the FA workload manageable, and (b) have a forum which remains reasonably on-topic and functioning in as free and open a manner as possible.

I would welcome any feedback - and on this occasion I mean right here on this thread - and your thoughts on whether I should make any of these changes permanent (or at all?)

Thanks,
Forum Administrator

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 12:46:34 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Trial policy changes
Message:
Hi FA,

As someone who has done his fair share of forum-admin, I think your new guidelines are fine.

I never used to bother checking for multiple aliases, except when somebody became an obvious nusiance, using a different name for every post.

I think the idea of removing posts that do nothing but attack another forum member is good. In fact, I think all the suggestions are worth trying.

Anth the Ex-Admin

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 19:55:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: No, that's too indiscriminate
Message:
'Attacking another forum member' could be as unjustified as someone attacking me, for example. On the other hand, it could be someone attacking shp which, as the Gita says, is 'righteous action.'

Please!

Anth, I lvoe you dearly but I do ahve to say that you were a wimp-ass FA. Sorry.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 20:22:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Trial policy changes - your thoughts please
Message:
Posts giving away another person's identity, their address, phone or other personal details without their knowledge or consent.
Thank you for this. I have always considered this a threat.
It's mean no matter what.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:41:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Isn't that a tad too indiscriminate, Selene?
Message:
Case in point: Deputy Dog

He contacts me by email and, after a few exchanges, I call him. In moments I put two and two together and guess that he, the old premie 'friend', is DD. But he's reluctant to confirm so I sweeten the pot by telling him that he can go ahead and confirm as I won't tell anyone. Promise.

Months and months later, Dog has posted under a variety of aliases. He's posted irrational bullshit throughout and has, often under one or another further fake name -- knowing full well that that's a blatant abuse of house rules -- he's done so just to take pot shots at me personally.

Okay, what I begin to see is that anonymity is allowing this asshole to be completely irresponsible here. There's no threat that he'll ever run into another old friend of any persuasion, mutual or not, and get questioned about anything he's said here. Me? I get it all the time. But him? No way.

Now, forgive me but at a certain point it seems that this whoel anonymity thing's bullshit and that this guy's name should definitely be appended to his bullshit. But then again, maybe I'm missing some deep, moral principle. Problem is, no one's ever told me what that supposed principle might be. My promise? At a certain point my promise has to be vitiated by his further breaches of house rules. That's how I see it.

Your thoughts?

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:14:29 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: DD
Message:
If it is really getting up your nose, Jim, you could always 'out' him in another venue, ie another chatroom, forum whatever, where you are not subject to the same constraints. Or just email his name around people you know;) Or, if appropriate, use the Shroom Method!

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:12:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: not thinking real clear right now but..
Message:
Jim hi,
There are always exceptions, I know.

My qualification at the moment, to what I said, would be that it's a threat when done for the soul purpose of being mean.

That old 'intentions' thing again, huh :) ?

At any rate a tad bit too indiscriminate could be my other alias. But it's a bit long, might run off the name field.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:35:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Yes and ......
Message:
My condolences, by the way.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:46:43 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: thanks Jim
Message:
I appreciate it.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:17:38 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yes, very good policy! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 19:02:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Hm........
Message:
Obviously, there are several ways to play this. All that you suggest is reasonable and possibly as good as any other way. But let me suggest perhaps an alternative approach.

People complain and worry about the 'harsh tone' of the forum, as we know. Their concerns seem to be that the harshness alienates not just ongoing posters but also drop-in's. It's true, in a way, that we're always running an 'open house' and sometimes all that people see when they drop in is a food fight.

I, too, share that concern. I think it's unseemly that we have to engage the way we do at times. However, I place the blame entirely, 100 per cent at the feet of the cultmembers. If truth matters here, then we exes are like little white blood cells greeting all the cult bullshit as it arrives and, hopefully, giving it the bum's rush. If we don't, then it's infiltrated and taken a foothold that truly denigrates the integrity of the forum. Imagine, for a second, true, 'respectful' pluralism here. This wouldn't be the ex-premie forum anymore. It'd just be a place where people talked about Maharaji. And personally, I think that would be bad.

So, for my money, I think that premies have to be put on short leashes here. They should never, for a second, feel that this is 'their forum too.' It isn't. ELK is. That's what they want, well that's what they get. This is ours.

And that means that any time premies are causing shit, even if it's just by staying too long, saying too much of the same irrational bullshit, again and again and again, they shoudl get tossed. Free speech? Fuck it. They can start their own web site any day of the week (of course none of them have or would ever think of doing so!).

We deserve some comfort here. Did you notice how last week and for some a bit of time before then there was very little premie interference? It was a pleasure! We've got more than enough to talk about so it's not as if the forum goes stale without the interlopers. Sure, I'm the first one to admit that there's a dirty joy in seeing what they'll say and how stupidly they'll say it. And, yes, there's a certain amount of educational value to lettign them do their thing. But I think that that value can be overemphasized at the expense of other values.

Say some new person dropped in today. What will they see? Some good informational stuff, a few threads like that, and then all this incessant jabber from idiots like Bjorn and our natural and inevitable attempts to reason with him. It does look weird at first blush, I'm sure. It looks like what it is: a running sore (sorry, I like that white blood cell metahpor a lot).

Do we need examples of premie stupidity? Well there's three years of archived material to choose from. We could have a permanent collection of some of the finest up for display if anyone was interested. AND -- this is important -- I think every premie should always be allowed to drop in and talk about things tentatively. But the moment reason drops out, guess what? So do they!

People sometimes suggest, in the alternative, that we can just ignore premies here. Well, tell that to your white blood cells. No way. It ain't gonna happen, it hasn't happened yet and, well all I can add that is that it aint' ever going to happen. Never.

So I think that you should exercise your discretion liberally and kick these fuckers off whenever it becomes obvious that they're resistant to reason beyond repair. For now anyway.

And is it hard to enforce? I'm not so sure. Isn't it the case that someone blocked from a discussion group who then sneaks back in is doing the very thing that his IP would cancel his account for if notified? I think we have to put some teeth into this thing. We do need a bouncer here and that's what a bouncer could and should do.

I know I did it once before with Mili. I had his internet account cancelled because of the scam he pulled on our newsgroup (trying to get it cancelled with a fake petition). That worked for a while. Sure, he got a new account but I just know that he'll think twice before fucking with us again. And you can be sure that a history of that kind of activity, if explained to his future servers, would make them drop him in an instant if he kept offending and getting kicked off various IPs. People do think about these things, even premies.

So that's what I think about that.

As for anonymity, if someone truly breaches any of the simple guidelines regarding names and such, and really does come back with a new fake name to confuse and mislead, then I think it's not only ethical but only reasonable that they be outed, not just back to their first fake name but to who they really are! Let's have some consequences here! What right does someone have to abuse anonymity here in the first place? None. I think that the system you suggest doesn't include enough deterrence. It's like telling shoplifters that, if caught, they WILL have the stolen merchandise taken away from them. Big deal to that, eh?

I know who you are, Mr. FA and I personalll would have no problem trusting your discretion on these issues. If it ever seemed that you were screwing up somehow we could all revisit the matters again.

That leads me to my last comment which is that I don't agree that discussions about the forum should be off-forum. Let me be the first to state the obvious (unless you yourself said it and I missed it -- I'm trying to do this all fairly quickly before I get out of here) -- that THIS discussion wouldn't be taking place under that policy. But really, I see no reasoon on the world why we shouldn't be able to have open discussions with each other about the forum. It's not as if this is a play or something and we're ruining the drama by having the actors talk to each other about it in front of the audience. The forum itself is just one more thing for us all to discuss. The only way we can do it is we do it here. There's nothing embarrassing or compromising about such discussions and there is, after all, the option anyone has if they DO have some sensitive matter to take up with you to do it in email. So I think that that's jut a bad, bad idea. I know that earlier FA's came up with it. It didn't make sense then and it doesn't now.

And please, get rid of shp will you? Or put the guy on some sort of restriction or something. And bjorn too. We don't need them to be whole.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 06:34:44 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Jim/All
Subject: Hm........and double Hmm
Message:
Gotta agree with you about keeping visiting premies on a short leash. This is NOT their forum unless they are EX-PREMIES. They are guests. It is that simple.
However, as long as they do try to be rational and have discussions as opposed to satsang harangues....allowing them to hang about could be the start of their own slow deprogramming. This use of the forum could be just how more ex-premies will come about. The company of truth!
But premies disrupting for the obvious sake of disrupting....and mindless cult-speak propaganda...put in THE BOOT!

Jim said:
'As for anonymity, if someone truly breaches any of the simple guidelines regarding names and such, and really does come back with a new fake name to confuse and mislead, then I think it's not only ethical but only reasonable that they be outed, not just back to their first fake name but to who they really are! Let's have some consequences here! What right does someone have to abuse'....US!!
I TOTALLY AGREE!
EITHER ABIDE BY OUR FEW RULES OR THEN THE LUXURY OF THE ANONYMITY RULE ENDS FOR THEM...THEN THEY GO!

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 18:58:10 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Whatever. You're the boss
Message:
and I'm certain you don't abuse your power. If you ever did, I will politely comment on it.

On the other hand, please keep Jim from refering to me as 'the weirdo' as I am trying to bring everyone to think I am as normal as anyone without Richard III's physical defect.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:18:57 (GMT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: I remember when...
Message:
I, the most evil of all Forum Administrators, had to carry the awful burden of remaining silent with regards to the true identity of a character posting as Government Inspector and a few other handles as well. Mr. G.I. was giving Jim the once over and I was watching with full knowledge that G.I. was none other than our favorite martyr and most saintly 'shp'.

I adhered to the sacred oath of privacy in this case. In retrospect, what a stupid thing to do.

Yes, I agree that the FA should be able to simplify such discussions when a regular poster or interloper, in this case, is receiving some advantage by concealing his/her identity.

And I say ban the old 'shp' - who the hell needs that Gollum-like snake?

Exchanges with the various incarnations of shp

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:48:23 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Phew.. someone who understands..
Message:
Thanks Barn - I appreciate the input from someone who's been there/here.

But that still leaves the problem of what the f*** we are supposed to do with them. The regulars. You know who I mean - and there are at least three or four of them - say farewell forever in headline threads (just so we don't miss the dramatic moment) then reappear just as soon as the bliss lets them down, and they realise there was something else they needed to say under a new alias. Lila was always a bit of a puzzle.

Drama queens, all of them. Didn't Maharaji give them a life? Can they really not move on? Is it my Karma or something?

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:29:58 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: That don't bother me much
Message:
Which doesn't stand for 'I don't care if it bothers you'. It is just that I don't read SHP's posts. I don't even know the guy. I find his posts boring. If you find him obnoxious, please feel free to get rid of the poster. As for a bugger doing damage to the forum, I can't imagine it possible. I just can't and I don't care much for it. Some may say I'm easy going while Jim said I'm a weirdo. Maybe, just maybe I am. What if I was?
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:13:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: I didn't say you were a weirdo, you weirdo!
Message:
I said it somewhat faceitously adopting an attitude I thought others, perhaps including Dettmers might have. All sarcastic speculation on my part.

But face it, Yves .....

naw, never mind.

You're just fine. :)

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 22:36:20 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I ain't weird, I just have my normality challenged
Message:
And please remember last time I was offended, air was clean and sex was dirty.
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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:58:50 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: I ain't weird, I just have my normality challenged
Message:
we are ALL normality challenged, after spending years in the cult!!! you're among equals here, remember? teasing aside, we've gotten off the topic again. FA wants feedback on policy changes, here.

something to contemplate:

polite
policy
politics
police
are all from the same root. if you fail to honor the first,you get the next,each of the rest, in turn.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 15:34:38 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Thanks for bringning us back
Message:
Without going into details which I ain't too familar with, on the conceptual level, I understand your questions are - please correct me if I am off here -

a) should we let buggers enter the forum? My answer: Freedom of speech has a price attached; 'yes' you should.

b) Is there a moment when buggers should be blocked-out? My answer is 'yes' because freedom of speech has limits beyond which there is abuse.

b1) When? My answer: Whenever FA feels like it and it is the duty of Forum participants to report buggers. You are the only judge and must be willing to be criticized for taking a decision. Make your own system. (Three warnings and you are out. If you come back, multi-megs files will be emailed or your email will be posted.)

c) A clear statement of Forum mission helps keep participants ontrack and buggers out. Is there such a mission statement? It must be designed and posted for everyone to see. Let me suggest something here as a discussion base:

The Ex-Premie Forum is dedicated to poeple concerned with the cultic activities of Prem Pal Singh Rawat. Forum participants may use the Forum to exchange and discuss information about Rawat to reflect on their involvement with him and stop his activities.

About that?

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 21:56:33 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Yves
Subject: Yves, we know you are - we've got pictures! (nt)
Message:
ASDF
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 06:54:50 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I have a confession....
Message:
I don't know how to say this....but...um...er...OH Hell!!

I AM A WEIRDO!!!!

There. I said it.
And I am glad.
I think.
Maybe...
Hmmm?

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