Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 13:11:00 (GMT)
From: Oct 10, 2000 To: Oct 15, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Salam -:- Who are the motley lot? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 14:11:02 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Maharaji is a liar - here's proof, Bjorn -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:26:47 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Who are the motley lot? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:30:40 (GMT)
__ janet of venice -:- salam please learn to make html links at 'help' -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:54:58 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- salam please learn to make html links at 'help' -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:22:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- salam please learn to make html links at 'help' -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 21:02:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Ahh, exsuse me maam. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:37:04 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- some site pages don't support html links, Janet... -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:53:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet of venice -:- some site pages don't support html links, Janet... -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:11:45 (GMT)
__ Bjørn -:- What is the proof? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 14:34:09 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- That isn't any kind of proof -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:42:57 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- I don't see it that way -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:04:01 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy-Oldie -:- THIS is proof? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:52:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bjørn -:- The proof found when following Salams directions -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:16:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I disagree with this, too -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:13:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Another thought on this -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:25:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Re: Another thought on this -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:02:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Re: Another thought on this -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 21:48:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Another thought on this -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 19:51:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- How profound goober is -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:29:28 (GMT)
__ __ Bidouc (from France) -:- What is the proof? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:06:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Merci -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:36:50 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- How romantic. -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 15:28:04 (GMT)

Wish -:- Premies, compare maharaji to other masters -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 12:34:00 (GMT)
__ Moldy-Oldie -:- Well said -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:57:08 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- the late, great Paramahansa Yogananda -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:26:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy-Oldie -:- AGREED! -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:41:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- AGREED! -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:49:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- oops - typo -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:54:52 (GMT)

Jerry -:- Tired of losing your internet connection? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 09:27:51 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- Tired of losing your internet connection? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 12:29:15 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Tired of losing your internet connection? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 13:35:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- 3 mins silence - then my telco pulls plug!! (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 16:04:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- find a different one then..nt -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:42:14 (GMT)

Tonette -:- Maharaji Videos -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 07:36:22 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- M videos, soon to be on ebay -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 03:12:56 (GMT)
__ janet of venice -:- I'll take em-my son wants to see them -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 07:46:37 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- I'll take em-my son wants to see them -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:15:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet of vice -:- I'll take em-my son wants to see them -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:39:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Paranoia you say? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:12:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- Paranoia you say? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:39:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Thanks for re-writing, I'll respond tomorrow (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 18:22:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- and it's tomorrow already -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 12:33:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Truly wonderful writing -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 23:50:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- Truly wonderful writing -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 23:52:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Oh what the hell... -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:52:32 (GMT)
__ __ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- I'll take em-my son wants to see them -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 09:48:35 (GMT)

Rob -:- Roger, see my post to you under Retraction (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:46:15 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Got it, thanks. -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:53:37 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- Got it, thanks. -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 05:03:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Oh, I forgot about the Taming of the Shroom! -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 05:15:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- expose's -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 05:51:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Third try -- (Great software, Brian!) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:13:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Repost because of that dumb (and old) glitch -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 16:47:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What about this, Susan? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 16:44:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- expose's - Maharaji said it himself -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 10:06:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Oh, I forgot about the Taming of the Shroom! -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 05:46:34 (GMT)

janet of venice -:- smart cards to prove membership in EV -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:16:00 (GMT)
__ bill---good one Janet -:- '27 year member of this experience' ha ha=nt -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:41:53 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- smart cards to prove membership in EV -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 15:45:08 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- smart cards to prove membership in EV -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 13:41:21 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- DUMB cards to prove membership in EV -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 12:09:53 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- How much did you pay? (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:19:24 (GMT)
__ __ janet of venice -:- It's not just the money, it's the arrogance -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 08:19:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rob -:- Nigel - was I right or was I right?? (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 15:49:11 (GMT)
__ __ janet of venice -:- my register says 30 and 10 dollars, total -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:33:04 (GMT)

ExTex -:- MICRO-RADIO BEING KILLED VERY SOON! (OT) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:06:45 (GMT)

Deputy Dog -:- Here's why I keep on keeping on -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 02:43:08 (GMT)
__ janet of venice -:- what you have is not religion -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 10:12:10 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- And look at the price you pay! -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 03:49:14 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Great name for a band, that ... -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:18:11 (GMT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- And look at the price you pay! -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:11:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ ExTex -:- And look at the price you pay! TUNNEL VISION -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:41:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That's it? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:25:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- That's it! -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:04:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Do you REALLY think that's what I meant? (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:45:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- No of course not, I'm psychic (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 22:27:22 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- ever think about genetics? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 02:51:45 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Preparing For The Next Phase -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:28:58 (GMT)
__ Curious George -:- Preparing For The Next Phase -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 06:48:14 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Good Point -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:22:04 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Sorry, garbled post -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:34:49 (GMT)
__ Cynthia G. -:- Be Careful About Recommending the 12 Steps... -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:14:00 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Be Careful About Recommending the 12 Steps... -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:29:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Be Careful About Recommending the 12 Steps... -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:41:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hi Helen (ot) -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:32:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Hi Helen (ot) -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 22:44:09 (GMT)
__ __ janet of venice -:- the 12 Steps... -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:05:38 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- Be Careful About Recommending the 12 Steps... -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:32:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Be Careful About Recommending the 12 Steps... -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:34:08 (GMT)
__ janet of venice -:- Preparing For The Next Phase of exodus -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:29:31 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- So you're local, huh? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:56:40 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Yeah were practically neighbors, you Jim and I -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 01:17:33 (GMT)

Joe -:- DECA and 'Marketable Skills/Businesses' -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:23:42 (GMT)
__ Bjørn -:- So tell us about your career, the Joe.(nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 08:06:55 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Why? (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 06:01:06 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- DECA and 'Marketable Skill--well said... -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 03:12:57 (GMT)
__ __ janet of venice -:- DECA and OSHA -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:45:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- DECA and OSHA -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:49:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- That is a good question janet. -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 11:32:28 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Very true Joe -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:47:13 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Very true Joe -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:30:52 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia G. -:- DECA WAS A SLAVE LABOR CAMP!!! -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:00:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- great post I agree (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:25:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- Yes,GURU SLAVERY IS ABOLISHED!! FREE FREE FREE(nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:58:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- I nominate Cynthia's post as **BEST** (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:12:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- I second Joe--very powerful, Cynthia (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:17:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Moldy-Oldie -:- May I be the tertiary vote? EXCELLENT!(nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:59:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I'll add mine !!!!!! BEST !!!!!! -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 17:04:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- BEST !!!!!! -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 03:54:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- I remember the Rolls.... -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:41:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- good post Cynthia -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:13:17 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Why are we focusing on shait? -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:07:45 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Sorry, Steve, I'm not with you there -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:54:40 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Why are we focusing on shait? -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:55:58 (GMT)
__ Gordon Showcase -:- These peeple aren't inteelegent -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:54:22 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Phase 2 Gordon, it's always phase 2 (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 01:14:54 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Why are we focusing on shait? -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:17:58 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- All an illusion steve -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:16:33 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- yeah hamzen and didn't someone say -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:38:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- Quite, -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:55:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- new age -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:00:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- You're stronger than me babes -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 01:29:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- 'Twuly'? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 10:54:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Yeah delib, although more Barrymore than Brer, -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:15:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- not stronger just work in a university -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 01:59:26 (GMT)

The Reader -:- quotes from Guru Maharaji Ji -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 22:31:26 (GMT)
__ Bjørn -:- quote from Guru Maharaji Ji -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:09:37 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy-Oldie -:- quote from Guru Maharaji Ji -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:40:07 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Yes, and also read Cynthia's post. -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 12:47:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bjørn -:- Yes, I read Cynthia's post. and yours -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 14:07:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What does this mean: 'truth is relative'? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:25:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Agree Truth is absolute? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:27:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's just a silly word game (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 21:32:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- I think you have proved the point -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 14:55:12 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- In other words he speaks out of both sides -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:21:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet of venice -:- he wouldnt know the truth if it slapped him -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:54:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- If the the truth slapped you -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 08:10:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- If the the truth slapped you -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 08:54:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Quite -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:33:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- LOL, best of the day, Ham (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:29:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- If the the truth slapped you -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 09:23:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bjørn -:- or he speaks out of his conviction (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:41:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- That's completely illogical Bjorn -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:03:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- It is completely illogical hamzden -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 08:03:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Not at all Bjorn -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:11:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Fatty has a third mouth. Guess where is it? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:02:24 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 14:11:02 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Who are the motley lot?
Message:
what a bunch.

http://www.enjoyinglife.org/enjoylife/Knowledge.nsf/frame_sets/English_Site_WhatsNew

click on

17 June UK anniversary

goto bottom of page

Click on

What is the proof?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:26:47 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Maharaji is a liar - here's proof, Bjorn
Message:
Everything was different from India. But after the first few days the fascination wore off, and it started to hit me, 'Oh, my God. If you don't like this, you can't just go back in 15 minutes. You're here.' But as I started to do the events, my focus was more on spreading Knowledge than on being in the West or how different everything was...

...There was a tremendous amount of pulling together for everything. But when things started happening that were result oriented, it wasn't sweet anymore. You can get so caught up in what is happening that you forget why you are even there...

...The way I see it is, when you are thirsty and there is water, something magical happens. You don't have to lecture anyone. You don't have to show anyone a manual, or teach them the appropriate way to drink water. That's not necessary. If the water is there, and the thirsty people are there, they will go and drink. What difference does it make how it is done...

...To be a master, you have to care, and you have to give, and you have to understand. You have to do what is best for the student. And it takes a very special commitment to do that...

...Some people had a concept that I was some kind of messiah or prophet, and that wasn't really acceptable to a lot of people. But I was saying right from the beginning: 'I'm not a messiah; I'm not a prophet; I'm none of those things.' Those are just concepts.

Not a messiah, not a prophet? Very special commitment? Fuck off!

He added that crucial verse to Arti and required premies sing it twice daily:

'Our Lord is the maker of all things created
He keeps us and brings us back home to his Word
Our Lord's the Superior Power in Person
I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.'

Meanwhile - on that UK trip - his 'very special commitment' required he eat mountains of ice cream and watch horror movies and deign to see premies only when he felt like it, provided they kissed his feet.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:30:40 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Salam
Subject: Who are the motley lot?
Message:
Thanks. I like that picture.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:54:58 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: salam please learn to make html links at 'help'
Message:
go to the opening page of the forum, read the forum rules, and at the bottom where it says 'forum help' read down near the end where it teaches you how to make hyper references? ( a href)please?
i hate having to copy long complicated url's by hand, thru three and four steps, to get them to take me over there.
if you can put a url in your message, you can take a moment to invent a link word, and put the silly html tags in front and behind the url ,and its nicname .
i just went to the trouble of writng the lessons for you here. but the browser misread it and then my phone rang and cut the connection so i lost it.
so go read the rules and click on 'help' and learn how bloody simple it is to turn a url into an outstanding link in your text, using carets(><<,><>) quotation marks(',') , the label of your choice, and the simple tags for a hyperreference (a href) and the universal keystroke for signaling the end of a command(/).
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:22:39 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: janet of venice
Subject: salam please learn to make html links at 'help'
Message:
Unless you have limited RAM, You can open your browser another time and cut and paste the url or type it in.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 21:02:53 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: salam please learn to make html links at 'help'
Message:
i have web tv. i can use my goto button,cut and copy http://....from its popup window,
then i can copy that in my cache memory and paste it in my find window.
then i can find it in string search down the page, highlight it, take up the whole url into cache, then go back to goto, delete the preexisting text, and paste it into the goto window.it takes me about 14 steps to get there,
or i can put my frame on the colored link and go there in one move.
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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:37:04 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Ahh, exsuse me maam.
Message:
Thank you for the advice. but all you have to do is copy the url from the post and paste it on the address field. I know I had a reason for that, duhh, what was is now? sheesh can not remember.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:53:39 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: some site pages don't support html links, Janet...
Message:
... sorry to be the one who brings you this news, but, IMO, in this instance, no praise, no blame.

Here's the text - and well worth directing people's attention too:

xtracts from an interview with Maharaji in June 1996 when he was asked a variety of questions about his early days in the West
and about his childhood in India.

'Right from my early childhood Shri Maharaj Ji, my father, used to say that I would spread Knowledge throughout the West. That's why it was very
important for him that I go to a school where I could study English. So, it was not a new thing when it finally happened. As I was growing up,
everybody always talked about it, 'You're going to go to the West.'...

...Slowly, pieces starting coming together. Some people from England came to India and received Knowledge. After they went back home, they
invited Charan Anand to England. He went and I remember him sending me pictures. He would hang out at Hyde Park and talk to people -
whoever came his way...


...Then the invitation came, the ticket came, and everything just started to click - so much more than I could have imagined. I had travelled by
aeroplane in India, but I certainly had no understanding of what it would mean to travel ten or eleven hours to go all the way to England. I had never
been in the international side of the terminal. I had only flown domestic, but I could see the big international aeroplanes and think: 'Someday.
Someday I'll go.'

Then it really started to come together, it was very simple and fascinating. I showed up at the airport wearing two sets of clothes because I didn't
know if there would be a place to change. So, I left India wearing a Nehru jacket and pants on top and a kurta and pyjama underneath. I had no
idea what it going to be like in England. We took off and went on to England. You can imagine a young boy just looking around. The windows in
the car weren't big enough. Everything was going past too fast to grasp. I had no concept of jet-lag. I felt a little strange, but I didn't know what it
was.

Everything was different from India. But after the first few days the fascination wore off, and it started to hit me, 'Oh, my God. If you don't like this,
you can't just go back in 15 minutes. You're here.' But as I started to do the events, my focus was more on spreading Knowledge than on being in
the West or how different everything was...

...There was a tremendous amount of pulling together for everything. But when things started happening that were result oriented, it wasn't sweet
anymore. You can get so caught up in what is happening that you forget why you are even there...

...The way I see it is, when you are thirsty and there is water, something magical happens. You don't have to lecture anyone. You don't have to
show anyone a manual, or teach them the appropriate way to drink water. That's not necessary. If the water is there, and the thirsty people are
there, they will go and drink. What difference does it make how it is done...

...To be a master, you have to care, and you have to give, and you have to understand. You have to do what is best for the student. And it takes a
very special commitment to do that...

...Some people had a concept that I was some kind of messiah or prophet, and that wasn't really acceptable to a lot of people. But I was saying
right from the beginning: 'I'm not a messiah; I'm not a prophet; I'm none of those things.' Those are just concepts.

...What is the proof that Knowledge is real? The proof is in itself. You feel, you experience, you enjoy. That is the proof.'

.
.
.

'But I was saying
right from the beginning: 'I'm not a messiah; I'm not a prophet; I'm none of those things.' Those are just concepts.'


.
.
.

Can you believe he now says that?

This guy is one PROFESSIONAL liar.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:11:45 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: some site pages don't support html links, Janet...
Message:
thanks for bringing it here for me to read, but all i was saying to salam and others is, anything that has a url can be made into a link with the simple html tags under 'forum help'. here on the forum it'll work. once you hit the site, true, you might have to navigate your way to it, like we found with the yacht picture. but here on the forum, links can be put in postings to the url, at least, if not to the final spot desired.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 14:34:09 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: What is the proof?
Message:
What is the proof that Knowledge is real? The proof is in itself. You feel, you experience, you enjoy. That is the proof.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:42:57 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Bjørn
Subject: That isn't any kind of proof
Message:
Bjorn,

When you rest second finger on forehead, first and third on eyelids and 'look within'..

When you plug ears with thumbs..

When you watch your breath doing its up and down..

When you curl up your tongue...

You remove your focus from external stimuli, relax deeply and it feels good. Am I right?

Is that 'proof' of anything? Do the good feelings come with Maharaji's name written on them? Or those of 'God' or 'the inifinite'? I would suggest that whatever you gained from 'receiving Knowledge' was yours already, and will still be there once you've ditched the guru.

That's a testable hypothesis. I suggest you try it (if proof is what you are seriously looking for).

Have you ever considered you might be just watching the rattle and hum of your own nervous system?

A scary possibility, but one we should all consider before writing any more cheques.

Take care,
Nigel

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:04:01 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: I don't see it that way
Message:
You feel, you experience, you enjoy. That is the proof.

Says you. The most meditation is for me is a pleasant diversion, sometimes -- a reprieve from life's hectic paces. But mostly, I feel unfulfilled by it. And when I thought it was my gateway to enlightenment, I was utterly frustrated and disappointed.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:52:45 (GMT)
From: Moldy-Oldie
Email: None
To: Bjørn-yesterday
Subject: THIS is proof?
Message:
NOT!

You tellin' me that you never 'felt' before K?
You tellin' me that you never 'experienced' before K?
You tellin' me that you never 'enjoyed' before K?

If you answer yes to any/all of those questions above, you really are a sorry little unit.

I 'felt' alot before K. I experienced alot before K. I enjoyed life alot before K. I was told that K would improve all of the above. It didn't..... all it is/was is a detour to non-involvement, non-feeling and non-enjoyment-of-REALITY! It's an illusion, it's a lie, it's a FAIRY-TALE, it's NOT REAL and NEVER WAS. Get it? No, you probably don't.

Somebody, in a recent post, said K was better than drugs.... I disagree wholeheartedly. 'Internal LSD' it definitely IS NOT! So there's another little lie put forth 'buy' your lord and master. I venture to say that if you had spent as much money on LSD as you spent on this fat little indian guy, you would have left this planet years ago. (Not advocating drug use, but we have to be truthful, don't we?)

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:16:24 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Moldy-Oldie
Subject: The proof found when following Salams directions
Message:
in his tread.
Re your question
You tellin' me that you never 'felt' before K?
You tellin' me that you never 'experienced' before K?
You tellin' me that you never 'enjoyed' before K?

If you answer yes to any/all of those questions above, you really are a sorry little unit.

What about this:
Yes, once I closed my eyes in a dark romm and sa a bright shining light. I tried even to paint it twice.
Yes I enjoyed a lot of things and had inner experiences whatever that means
Answering Yes I must be a sorry little unit in your eyes.

To me receiving K was an incredible exoperience and I swear I saw and experienced infinity. And it was not a one night thing.

In a video I watched today at a program, Maharaji got a question from a guy who asked something like this. 'I feel guilty and insufficient because Ido not experience Knowledge like Iused to.' Maharajis reply was something like 'if you take away the feeling of guilt and insuffiency, the experience will be there.' (short version).

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:13:24 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: I disagree with this, too
Message:
Maharajis reply was something like 'if you take away the feeling of guilt and insuffiency, the experience will be there.'

I don't agree with this. The suggestion is that if we take away all the bad feelings (through meditation, I suppose, or just willing them away -- did he say how to do that, by the way?), then what will be left is the fulfillment we seek, as if it's a default state of being that exists once we clear ourselves of all the 'maya'. It's a philosophy I once adhered to, as did all premies, but I've never seen it in reality.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:25:48 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Another thought on this
Message:
It's true that when you're burdened by something, when you let go of that burden, you feel relief from that. So, in a way, you could say Maharaji is right. When you let go of unjustified guilt, you've relieved yourself of a burden. I suppose, if he's talking about the relief you feel from that, he's right. But I suspect he's talking about much more, about some kind of cosmic liberation. This I think is ridiculous.
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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:02:12 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Another thought on this
Message:
Hi Jerry
Even if this pobably is one of my last posts here, I would like to reply.

In the program I watched, Maharaji did reply most questions with 'enjoy Knowledge'

He also talked about the desert (almost as it was a neccesity) and how to use the third technique to let it rain in the desert. He also taked about how it was better to come from gratitude vs absolute need as the first one was more joyful.

I just thought about this, I dont know if it makes any sense to you, probably not, but to me it does. BTW one of the paintings (the more artistic) I mentioned where I tried to paint the Light (told about in a post above) This painting was a desert, 4 objects above the desert and a big shining sun. (This was before I got Knowledge and I used to explain - 'I am the desert, the objects are nessesary for something to grow in me and the sun is The Inspiration) I still have the painting on my wall.

Anyway, I get more and more the feeling that without gratitude towards life, without trust in Knowlegde, without the understanding of the role of the master, Knowlegde is absolute nothing - a fact which seems to be proved here at this Forum.

Just a thought - forget about Maharaji for a minute and imagine: If 'God' would walk on this earth. do you think the roles would be that 'God' would have the role of being the servant of each person who belived in him, or that it was the other way around, that those who belived in 'God' would try to please 'God'?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 21:48:53 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Re: Another thought on this
Message:

Why don't you 'light the blue touch paper & retire'.

Go & blow yourself up , motherfucker.


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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 19:51:15 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Re: Another thought on this
Message:
He also taked about how it was better to come from gratitude vs absolute need as the first one was more joyful.

You can't just turn shit on and off, Bjorn. You have to have a reason to be grateful. Maharaji has to deliver something before you can say 'thank you' to him. You see, this is where Maharaji makes little sense, when he puts the cart before the horse. It doesn't work.

Anyway, I get more and more the feeling that without gratitude towards life, without trust in Knowlegde, without the understanding of the role of the master, Knowlegde is absolute nothing - a fact which seems to be proved here at this Forum.

I'll trust Knowledge when it delivers what I want from it. Until then, I refuse to be bamboozled into a gratitude I have no reason to feel.

Just a thought - forget about Maharaji for a minute and imagine: If 'God' would walk on this earth. do you think the roles would be that 'God' would have the role of being the servant of each person who belived in him, or that it was the other way around, that those who belived in 'God' would try to please 'God'?

Maharaji's not 'God'. And I don't believe in God, anyway. But if there was a God, and it was clear that there was, which it isn't, then yes, I would say 'thank you, Lord, how may I serve you?' But such is not the case.

Dettmer's remarks about Maharaji's belief in himself, as the ultimate provider, even to those who feel he's provided nothing, ring so true to me when I reflect on the type of ideology you've just presented, which Maharaji presents, and countless other premies present. He really thinks he's all THAT just becasue, well, just because, it seems. The guy really thinks he's God's gift to the planet, even though countless numbers of people who have received his 'gift' are terribly unimpressed. It just doesn't compute with this guy.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:29:28 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: How profound goober is
Message:
Get out of here with you satsang saturated, deluded bullshit. We don't want to hear asshole's 'discourses.' This is an EX-PREMIE forum you moron.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:06:41 (GMT)
From: Bidouc (from France)
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: What is the proof?
Message:
Knowledge is one thing, rawat is another...
He is the only one who told us about his devotion, but what is the relationship between his message and his life?
You can enjoy this breath without all the stuff of rawat's world.
Don't fool yourself there are 2 different things.
Life, Knowledge, everything are wonderfull without rawat
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:36:50 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Bidouc (from France)
Subject: Merci
Message:
Merci d'avoir dire ce que vous avez dit. (Pardon my French).

Thank you for saying what you said.

I think that separating knowledge from Rawat is the key to regaining sanity.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 15:28:04 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: How romantic.
Message:
Let go to the pub and talk it over.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 12:34:00 (GMT)
From: Wish
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Premies, compare maharaji to other masters
Message:
Premies if you think maharaji is a true master and that he has revealed god to you, read Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramhansa Yogananda and compare the masters and your experience. The whole book is public domain, free and online, you don't even to go out and buy it. On his journey Yogananda meets many Masters, Yogis, Saints, etc. Among other things, they are all detatched from worldly possessions, contrary to maharaji with his mansions, luxury cars, recording studio, watch collection, yatch, plane, helicopter... and the list goes on. Notice also how real masters always fully answers their disciples questions. Maharaji won't even answer his own brother's questions let alone his followers. If you have questions you're just supposed to watch more boring videos and they're supposed to anwer themselves. A premie that has even a small doubt or question is considered by maharaji to be a big time loser. One of the things maharaji hates more than anything else is being compared to other masters. Gee, I wonder why???
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:57:08 (GMT)
From: Moldy-Oldie
Email: None
To: Wish
Subject: Well said
Message:
He doesn't meet the tamest 'master muster,' by the stretch of ANY imagination. Yogananda would probably have laughed in M's face if they had ever had the chance to meet and M had declard himself to be anything other than a charlatan.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:26:03 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Moldy-Oldie
Subject: the late, great Paramahansa Yogananda
Message:
Hey Moldy,

I read 'Autobiography of a Yogi' about three times when I was in Rawat's ashram. The community coordinator did not approve, but hey, we all had our vices, (as Eric laments).

Anyway, after I became a reformed human being and no longer a guru-lover, I reread parts of the great book. I also reread parts of 'The Path' by Yogananda's follower Kriyananda. One part I read was telling about the time a monk had just left the Sunset Blvd ashram and Yogananda was telling Kriyananda that 'more heads will roll' because they lacked the proper devotion.

My new perspective put Yoganada in an entirely new light, and not a complimentary one. I have a tape of him speaking in his undeniably brilliant and powerful manner (strange voice though), but in the final analysis, he's was just one more fake god, but certainly a better spiel than M's, as you say.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:41:55 (GMT)
From: Moldy-Oldie
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: AGREED!
Message:
The best guru in the world said, 'There are no gurus, you are your own guru. Anyone calling themselves a guru is a fake. Unless, of course, you are referring to yourself, for yourself.' I won't say who the guru was, because he wasn't a guru and didn't like being referred to as one.

I wish people could see these guys for what they are: A bunch of power-mad, egotistical, charlatans that have only one thought in their minds.... how to separate you from your wealth (no matter how limited your wealth may be). Think about it.... These guys cojole money from their devotees in the poorest of nations. Rather than giving those poor folks a hand, they squeeze it! For what???? A luxury home, a yacht, a whatever.... They ALL suck! (except, of course, for my old non-guru, guru...) Hell, he sucks too!

I couldn't agree with you more, Way!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:49:53 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Moldy-Oldie
Subject: AGREED!
Message:
MO,

Go read Cynthia G's new post under Joe's Deca thread a few threads below!

Gurus are the sickest members of the human race.

I recently went to a municipal garden with a friend of mind, a former premie. We entered a walled pavilion section which was filled with gardenias. We looked at each other and left the spot in disgust because we both realized that we both had just been reminded of the darshan tunnel.

AAAAARRGGHHH!!!!!!!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:54:52 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: oops - typo
Message:
I said 'a friend of mind.' I meant 'a friend of mine.' Oh well, it's better than being an enemy of mind.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 09:27:51 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Tired of losing your internet connection?
Message:
Ever since I bought my new computer, I've found it impossible to maintain an internet connection for any length of time, no matter how much I fiddle with the options provided by my browser. Every 5 or 10 minutes, it seems, I've lost my connection, and I've got to re-connect and IT PISSES ME OFF!!

Well, a friend at work filled me in about a utility which I've recently installed called Keep It Alive that's supposed to correct all that.

I've only installed it recently, but so far, so good. I had to fiddle with the options a little to get it to work, but now I don't have to worry about losing my connection while I'm on the net. I think the program is a godsend.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 12:29:15 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Tired of losing your internet connection?
Message:
This problem can be (is usually?) caused by the telephone company's automatic equipment monitoring for traffic on the line. In the event that nothing has been transmitted either way for a certain period of time, the telco tears down the connection.

One way to keep the line open is to run your email program and have it check for new mail at the mailserver every few minutes. The traffic involved in transmitting (the inet equivalent of) 'hello, any new mail for me?' will keep the line open.

Alternatively, a regular ping to any other machine on the network will also keep the line open.

Thirdly, people bothered by this sort of problem could load a webpage into their browser that sports the sort of banner advert that keeps calling a distant server for updates. Then use another browser window to keep up with the guru demolition derby here at Forum 5!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 13:35:49 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Tired of losing your internet connection?
Message:
I would have thought that at least they will allow a 20 minutes laps before disconnection. It could also happen if there is call waiting, that will disconect the line. But I do click on the send/recieve on my e-mail every now and then to stay on line.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 16:04:53 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: 3 mins silence - then my telco pulls plug!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:42:14 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: find a different one then..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 07:36:22 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: netguest42@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji Videos
Message:
Going, going, gone I hope. My husband and I are forever clearing out our house. We have about 30 or so M videos. Rather than throw them in the trash, do any ex's want them? Maybe someone who is more computer savy than I could put selected clips on this web site. If anyone can think of a use for them I will donate them. E-mail me and we'll talk.
Sincerely, Tonette
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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 03:12:56 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: M videos, soon to be on ebay
Message:
No, I don't want to give them to someone who doesn't have a really good use for them. Having your son watch hours of cult talk will not do him any good. Sorry. And no, I will not just ship them at my expense. Do I look like a fool?
Since no one here intended to put them to good use then we'll auction them and see what happens.
I'll alert the forum when the videos are posted on ebay.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 07:46:37 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: Jai_Choix@webtv.net
To: Tonette
Subject: I'll take em-my son wants to see them
Message:
and we should save them for court evidence. how far back do they go??

email me to set up shipping

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:15:28 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: I'll take em-my son wants to see them
Message:
Janet, just a word in your ear about this:

Jean-Michel is involved in all manner of archives on this site, and though he's not always posting on the Forum, he might like to share those videos too.

And, forgive me for this, but a little voice in the back of my subliminal suspicions reminds me that the Maha was ALL TOO EAGER to get his hands on archive material not so long ago. You too?

Ah well, fools like me rush in ...

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:39:24 (GMT)
From: janet of vice
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I'll take em-my son wants to see them
Message:
your'e forgiven for the paranoia. reminds me of how COINTELPRO succeeded in seeding the counterculture with schisms of distrust by planting agents and disinformation among the SDS to destroy the cohesiveness of the Movement. Rennie Davis could regale you with stories.

no, my kids yearning to know what he missed is a genuine one. I could always send em on to yves as my son watches his fill. i never could buy videos and was cut off from the video programs for years cause i had no idea where they were in my city. long story.

i could stridently violate EV's copyright and make One copy for personal use(woooo-fair use! fair use!) before we forwarded em to yves, too.

you know how they say the surest way to know what your kids think is to sit down with them and watch what they watch, and talk to them about it? this is the only way i can see doing that. my son is 22. real impressionable. real idealistic. real naive. can you think of a better way to combat his ignorance and vulnerability??

have i proposed a viable solution to all concerns, with this?

if you read one of my previous posts, you will see my admonishment in all caps,not to throw out anything from the past, that we can use as evidence, no matter how abhorrent the materials may be now..

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:12:50 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet of vice
Subject: Paranoia you say?
Message:
Paranoia implies an unwarranted threat.

Wasn't the Maha threatened by the existence of all that archive material? He wanted it destroyed, didn't he?

If (for the sake of argument) you were an EV plant, wouldn't you still claim that my request for caution was paranoia?

The shadow has already been cast. (How dramatic!)
.
.
.
.
Silly me, how on earth could you be a pro-Maha plant?

Then again, that kind of thinking ... what? the opposite of paranoia - i.e. thinking everybody loves you?

I wonder what the word is for that?

.
.
.
OK. let's attempt to settle this.

How about you start a new thread quoting the contents of my post to you above in the thread entitled 'Who are the motley lot?'

Sorry to have to test you, but, to be totally honest, your recent journey

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:39:00 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Paranoia you say?
Message:
great. i wrote you a nice long answer and the browser ate it. its gone.
i must say, rereading your message, i get totally confoozled. howz come you want me to go clear back up the html post to salam? i thought we were finished with that?
lemme see what i can remember of my lost text.i think it was primarily about you not knowing where i stand? not knowing where my loyalties lie? not sure if you trust me?? something about my journeys entry and that was cut off befor i got to see all of your answer?
btw, paranoia in psychiatric terms is considered a narcissistic disorder. ! thinking poeple's attentio is on you when it actually isnt. i had a bout of it once. no--counting the head injury, twice. twice. its awful.
i was saying in my lost answer that its a little funny, but more sad, that our experience of having our trust betrayed with MJ has given us permanent wariness. i have a similar lasting impact from my assaults. it's normal for such experience. i spent years living with zero trust. eventually it bcomes impossible to function. I had to begin to trust something, again.i was survivng in an unreality and i couldnt trust anything, including myself. i did hospital time for it, at my own request.11 days of it in 94.
i must say--lancing the boil of my years of alienation, here on this forum, has given me a way to say what i really have felt at the hands of DLM/EV, and I've found out shit i never knew, but makes total sense, and crystallizes a hell of alot of stuff that jacked me around for years. no wonder i was surviving in unreality! one minute i was a 'sister', member of the great dedication to save the planet, by dispeling ignorance, spreading Knowledge, as an agent of God in Human form--and the next minute I'm an outcast, doors slamming in my face, because i'm pregnant, and then my family kidnaps my son and puts me in psych lockup, and tells me i dont get him back till i forsake the guru and live like 'normal' people, the hospital is under orders to prevent me from meditating, i get drugged stupid, dumped out, my father spends down my inheritance from my mother on a halfway house run by the same doctors, my sister takes me to a deprogrammer, my father hoards my ssi checks half a continent away and thinks he can force me into getting job, while im disintegrating nto suicidal depression. so i muster my last pocket money and bus back to his state, get my piled up checks,gt bck to denver and find an apt in a 100 year blizzard,and vow not to leave until i die or recover myself as i was before this betrayal. by MJ and by my family. the ashrams are gone--wiped out while i was locked up. my little son is behind a gated community, 1200 miles away. and i have no visitation. i am consumed with fantasies and nightmares of committing murder on my father and on MJ and being caught at the border by the FBI, sent to prison the rest of my life.. i go to shrinks. theyre no help. i go to work. i feel unreal. i have panic attacks.,i have whiteout seizures.i live with constant pressure to take my life and cut short the pain. i outlast them and keep surviving. i live inspite of life, not 'ELK'. i go to appearances of MJ only, not community stuff.i'm looking for an answer that never comes. i dont belong, anymore. i meet a man and we date, and we fuck.at somepoint it turns out he got Knowledge when I did, but he's alienated and doesnt practice either. we never speak of MJ the way premies do, or the way we did 'back in the day'. i spend 6 years of my life on this guy and we end up in domestic violence court and me with my foot broken, over a row about still another premie who is disenchanted and doesnt go to events. its so odd. i make new friends, and only later find out we both got knowledge, once upon a time. we never talk about MJ when we see each other. and then we fall out over some pride issue and the friendship is broken.
I never speak about knowledge to anyone i know. I'm embarrased about it. when i do go to events, i don't recognize 99% of the people i see and i'm not greeted by anyone. the trinkets at the sales tables are so much frou frou and waste. the materials are uniformly bo-ring. I find far more stimulation in 12 step groups, metaphysics courses,weekend workshops, gem shows, and later channelling, the course in miracles, and the Urantia Book.
my channelling work takes me to L A, where i see no premies at all for five years, except to go to longbeach once a year on the train and to try playing an old tape once in a while, when i'm desperate for the pain and unreality to cease. it does little. i get back from longbeach, knowing with conviction that the present people in my life are the ones who are my real involvements.I do the whole life expo as volunteer staff. I have one premie friend, whose company i find tedious but sincere.he keeps me notified of Mj events, tho he doesnt practice anymore, himself. i groan when i hear that it's him on the phone. I often duck the calls.
i feel a sense of private relief, that in all my 27 years of having Knowledge, i never gave any money to the guru. i never had it to give, and now i'm vindicated.
in 97 my son, now grown up, rejoins me, and i cant bring myself to take him to local video events. i get all irritable and uncaring when he mentions going. he doesnt go for himself. its a stalemate.
he asks, but i cant think of anything to tell him.
having not grown up between his premie father and i, but rather in the protected world of my then-millionaire father's country club, he wants badly to understand what dad and i are about, what did we do all those years,whats it all about?
since i am unwilling to talk about it anymore, except here, the old videos would be a quick way to give him what he wants to understand, he can watch on his own time, and then i can forward them to Yves, if he wants to archive them as contraband and evidence.
you'll think what you need to. about me-until you don't. I'm not worried. you have to process it your own way. I'm a little injured that you are suspicious, but go ahead. Ive survived a hell of a lot worse. no biggie.my journey post is just the end of a long and rude tale. i could add this to it if you like.
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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 18:22:28 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Thanks for re-writing, I'll respond tomorrow (nt)
Message:
honest
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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 12:33:33 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: and it's tomorrow already
Message:
Yup, I've thought it through again and there's not a doubt in my mind - I'm definitely in deep doo-doo on this, Janet, and I can only hope the injured feeling didn't last too long.

My suspicions were unfounded, and if that means I'm paranoid, I'll just have to live with the diagnosis. Hope it won't mar any future communication that might take place between us on the Forum.

You've certainly been through the 'school of hard knocks' as far as your encounter with the Maha's cult is concerned, though very few of us get out totally unscathed. I fell straight into the arms of the Rajneeshis when I left in around '76, and that caused a few complications, I can tell you.

Incidentally, this is none of my business, but are you sure that videos of the Maha doing his psycho-salesman/dependency generating spiels would be good for your son? The Maha does use some powerfully hypnotic suggestions in his talks, and can generate a strange, almost other-wordly suspension of belief (and disbelief) that I wouldn't like to submit my myself to, for one. Just an uncalled opinion, but for some reason I feel concerned.

BTW, loved the html Picasso

}}%^([

give my regards to Bob Dobbs.

Chris

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 23:50:59 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: GKL1@techline.com
To: janet of venice
Subject: Truly wonderful writing
Message:
Yes, more please if you feel like it. Very touching indeed.

And I understand the feeling of betrayal by family, guru and the likes of michael dettmers... 'Permanent wariness' yes, exactly.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 23:52:14 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Truly wonderful writing
Message:
if i have struck your personal chord of resonance, then i am touched indeed.

i can tell, by your hardline, how enraged you are at all this. yeah.me 3.

maybe i have more than one book inside of me. hmmmmm.
what bitterly wry title could i call my book about my life as a premie?

the discussion is opened to free for all brainstorming.im open to suggesstions. bastardizations of maharaji's quotes would be rich.

I think i'll start the bidding at....
'when it starts rottening, it's gonna rot like a hell'

anyone wanna see me and raise me?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:52:32 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Oh what the hell...
Message:
I was virtually homeless throughout most of my twenties. Many a night I spent sleeping in a burned out house in the ghetto, falling asleep in spite of heart pounding terror. I slept in cars, on friends' floors and for a while on a pile of rags in the garage at brother's suburban home (a step up, actually.) My sister-in-law didn’t allow me in the house, though I must say in her defense, she was dying of cancer.

I could barely hold a job (though I enjoyed a spate of labor jobs, mostly in greenhouses) and even a trip to the grocery store evoked the greatest anxiety. Somehow I managed to get some grants to attend college and the interaction with all these new people was extremely difficult. I was fortunate in that a couple of brothers I new in high school lived in the Philadelphia area and I slept on their floor for two years. I never made it through journalism school, though and after I left, I was basically back on the streets again, and I didn't own a vehicle. I bought a used bicycle and crashed at my cousin's apartment, again in the ghetto...

Of course I spent a lot of my time self-medicating and trying to lose myself. It's all a jumble really. A friend got me a job at Wang Laboratories and I hooked up with Patty. I purchased a new car and bought a little house right on the mainline of the Pennsylvania railroad, 'the tarpaper shack by the railroad track.' Paid $7500 for it on a contract from the owner.

Patty lived in NYC and I managed to get transferred there. I was working in the parts department with about ten other people. One day the police came in and took eight of them away. Turned out my boss and a buddy were FBI agents and these other guys had been trafficking in stolen computer parts and cocaine. The new boss refused to even answer a single phone call and this lady and I were expected to keep things going. I said 'fuck' to the boss more than once and a few weeks later, when I threatened to quit, I found myself quickly ushered into the personnel office, give my two weeks severance and booted out the door. A short time later, Wang stock fell to 65 cents a share and the place folded anyway.

I had a series of panic attacks and had to leave NYC during the first year of our marriage. Fortunately I had purchased another derelict house in an ok neighborhood from the proceeds of the sale of the first house, so I had the reconstruction of that to fall back on for work and income. Eventually Patty moved into this house, though she hated Harrisburg, and the two of us struggled together in a variety of businesses to make a living. I wasn't exactly employee material, as I had a bit of a problem with 'authority.' We managed, though both of us hated where we were living and almost exactly ten years ago to this day we packed up our pickup truck and moved west with absolutely no plan. Things worked out well for us in Washington. Ten years! My how time flies when you're having fun!

This is probably more than you wanted to know about me but it feels perversely good to say it...

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 09:48:35 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: janet of venice
Subject: I'll take em-my son wants to see them
Message:
When I was a premie 72'-76' we didn't have GMJ on home videos yet. We only had reel to reel films like FatGuru Has Cum and Who The Hell Is Ru Gu Maserati. I am not sure i could actually sit through a whole hour of his assholiness admiring the sound of his own voice.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:46:15 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: ReD
Subject: Roger, see my post to you under Retraction (nt)
Message:
(nt)
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:53:37 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Rob
Subject: Got it, thanks.
Message:
Gosh, Rob, you are, like, almost, like almost alright as a person, I mean.

Gee, I suppose that I'm probably going to have to remove my expose pages about you, too. Although, I think that you, Rob, got more pages than Michael Dettmers. I don't know, I think that I would consider it an honor.

If I remove all the expose pages on the House of Maharaji Drek it's just going to fall down like a house of cards. What the hell is it good for if it can't be down and dirty and unethical and all?

In fact, Rob, your original Rob Anderson Agya is, in my numb little mind, the single most hysterical event to ever occur on the Forum. When I see the name Rob I always reflect back to those good old days with a smile.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 05:03:22 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Got it, thanks.
Message:
The Agya thing? Well yes that was quite amusing at the time.

Surely a close second has to be the Outing of the Shroom though?

(You know he's been back for more since, don't you?)

:o)

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 05:15:54 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Rob
Subject: Oh, I forgot about the Taming of the Shroom!
Message:
And he's back! No!!!!!

Actually, Rob, if you wish to collect, summarize, and present the Taming of the Shroom I would most very likely add that to the House of Maharaji Drek. It certainly belongs as ***Best*** or ever ***Better***.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 05:51:03 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: expose's
Message:
I keep thinking how upset I would be if lets say Mel Bourne, no, I don't think he would do such a thing...um...David Smith...

Yes, David Smith concieved of a grand plan for dealing with the ex's. David decided to collect info on each and every one of us. Then made little web pages about us. I am a pretty nice person, but there are a few personal facts I would not get a kick out of seeing put up on a web page. What if someone decided that with the weight I gained after the baby that it would be really amusing to say, put my photo next to one of Mrs. Jumbo. Then, this premie took his creation and linked my name into every search engine he could find, surely an argument for remaining anonymous, as you are, and anyone who decided to put 'Susan Haupt' in a search engine could read the nice things they had to say about me.

And then, Jim, maybe they could do a little sleuthing and find out about who e Drek is. Joe, they could do this on the whole gang.

And they would Smith, from what I hear, would feel morally justified as after all, look at our hate site, and the lies we perpetuate, look at it all.

If things were not quite juicy enough for Dave, he could through some speculation in too.

I REALLY did not want to post my last name on the forum. But I had to. Because I thought it was very important that everyone read the letter I sent to Rawat about Jagdeo and the response from Elan Vital. I had to use my last name because I used Randy and Judy's last names in the letter. It seemed incredibly hypocritical to do otherwise.

Do you see what I am getting at?

You have to treat other people decently, just because it is the right thing to do.

It is okay to ask fair questions. But even before I ever really knew who Michael was I really was uncomfortable with what you had done to him on the net. It just seemed dirty.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:13:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Third try -- (Great software, Brian!)
Message:
Susan,

When Roger first caricatured and satirized Dettmers, the latter had a commercial website up, advertising his 'management training' skills and boasting that:

As the Managing Director of a Swiss-based Foundation from 1973 to 1982, he organized educational programs and events in over 25 countries. He also managed its world-wide business operations including travel services, event management, health food services, and publications and video productions generating revenues in excess of 100 million dollars in 1982.

Are you saying that that kind of spin WASN'T the fair target of a little ridicule?

You know, the years have passed and everyone's just plain 'moved on with their lives'. Well, hold on there. Isn't this web site all about standing up for a little truth and accuracy in the face of a wholesale revisionism campaign by the cult that loved us? I'd say that, given his vaulted position with the cult and the spin he chose to put on it in his own advertisement, Dettmers was fair meat.

Okay, since then, much to his credit and unlike other PAMs or former PAMs, Michael engaged us -- me initally -- in some dialogue. Over time, I think that dialogue has grown more open, more revealing. Now there are some who think that the only reason he ever talked with us, then or now, was to control the damage that Drek's 'expose' might have on him personally. And there's also a question about how open is open with respect to Michael but, personally, I give him credit on both counts. That is, I do think that he talked with us for reasons beyond just his own self-interest and I also give him credit, at this juncture, for a certain level of sincerity and candour.

But it's been a process.

I can tell you this. In my opinion, people like Joan Apter, who similarly advertises her 'management training' skills relying on her former 'client', Elan Vital, as resume back-up, or Charles Cameron, who's also actively advertising his services but fudging about his past, people who were indeed premie movers and shakers who definitely moved me and shook me, are all fair game to ridicule such as what Dettmers got.

I tried to explain this to you the other day but now it seems like you just didn't get it. Yes, for the thousandth time, you're right. If I, or you, or anyone else, had ever risen high in the ranks of the cult and enjoyed that lofty status for years, yes, I, your or that other person might well have some moral obligation to expose the cult further once they see through it themselves. But I didn't rise high and neither did you. So the issue's moot. Don't know why you can't see that.

Anyway, look at it this way. What if no one had ever challenged anything Michael had said. Well, for one thing, I doubt we'd have ever herad anything from him in the first place. Yes, I know that kind of contradicts what I said earlier about his presumed mixed motives for every communicating here but, come to think of it, when I did first talk with him, as he'll readily admit, his prime concern was clearing his own name.

Anyway, so Michael gave us some information and that was a good thing, right? I think so. More to the point, I'm sure the Hamster didn't like it and that's GOT to be a good thing.

But then Michael's credibility isn't just accepted at face value. He's confronted in various ways to open up a bit more. Is it pretty, all this confrontation? No, not necessarily. But then confrontation never is. Anyway, Michael DOES rise to the occasion (in my view) and THAT has to be good thing too, doesn't it?

This is all a good process! I'd hope that even Michael would acknowledge that. He's sharing more, we're learning more and it's all good. Some of us are more suspicious than others. That's fine. That's human nature. Michael can take it. Ask him.

----------

Susan,

I've now had a chance to read your post to Brian below. So you really agree with all that? Too much. Too fucking much.

Maybe what you should do is stop reading anythnig further Dettmers posts. Why? You don't deserve to. Dettmers is responding to a line of questions that, if you agree with Brian, shoulod never have been posed. None of us have the right to question him or anyone about anything. We're all 'assholes', Susan. That's what you agreed with, right?

So forget about any possible good that might come of this entire process that's brought us to this point to date. It's all teribly unseemly and, apparently, below good people like Brian, Miss Katie and, perhaps, you too. We're all prying into areas that are, simply put, none of our business! So don't be a hypocrite, please. Quit reading anything further Michael posts. It's a confession extracted by torture. Call Amnesty International, someone.

Oh for the shame of it all!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 16:47:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Repost because of that dumb (and old) glitch
Message:
Susan,

When Roger first caricatured and satirized Dettmers, the latter had a commercial website up, advertising his 'management training' skills and boasting that:

As the Managing Director of a Swiss-based Foundation from 1973 to 1982, he organized educational programs and events in over 25 countries. He also managed its world-wide business operations including travel services, event management, health food services, and publications and video productions generating revenues in excess of 100 million dollars in 1982.

Are you saying that that kind of spin WASN'T the fair target of a little ridicule?

You know, the years have passed and everyone's just plain 'moved on with their lives'. Well, hold on there. Isn't this web site all about standing up for a little truth and accuracy in the face of a wholesale revisionism campaign by the cult that loved us? I'd say that, given his vaulted position with the cult and the spin he chose to put on it in his own advertisement, Dettmers was fair meat.

Okay, since then, much to his credit and unlike other PAMs or former PAMs, Michael engaged us -- me initally -- in some dialogue. Over time, I think that dialogue has grown more open, more revealing. Now there are some who think that the only reason he ever talked with us, then or now, was to control the damage that Drek's 'expose' might have on him personally. And there's also a question about how open is open with respect to Michael but, personally, I give him credit on both counts. That is, I do think that he talked with us for reasons beyond just his own self-interest and I also give him credit, at this juncture, for a certain level of sincerity and candour.

But it's been a process.

I can tell you this. In my opinion, people like Joan Apter, who similarly advertises her 'management training' skills relying on her former 'client', Elan Vital, as resume back-up, or Charles Cameron, who's also actively advertising his services but fudging about his past, people who were indeed premie movers and shakers who definitely moved me and shook me, are all fair game to ridicule such as what Dettmers got.

I tried to explain this to you the other day but now it seems like you just didn't get it. Yes, for the thousandth time, you're right. If I, or you, or anyone else, had ever risen high in the ranks of the cult and enjoyed that lofty status for years, yes, I, your or that other person might well have some moral obligation to expose the cult further once they see through it themselves. But I didn't rise high and neither did you. So the issue's moot. Don't know why you can't see that.

Anyway, look at it this way. What if no one had ever challenged anything Michael had said. Well, for one thing, I doubt we'd have ever herad anything from him in the first place. Yes, I know that kind of contradicts what I said earlier about his presumed mixed motives for every communicating here but, come to think of it, when I did first talk with him, as he'll readily admit, his prime concern was clearing his own name.

Anyway, so Michael gave us some information and that was a good thing, right? I think so. More to the point, I'm sure the Hamster didn't like it and that's GOT to be a good thing.

But then Michael's credibility isn't just accepted at face value. He's confronted in various ways to open up a bit more. Is it pretty, all this confrontation? No, not necessarily. But then confrontation never is. Anyway, Michael DOES rise to the occasion (in my view) and THAT has to be good thing too, doesn't it?

This is all a good process! I'd hope that even Michael would acknowledge that. He's sharing more, we're learning more and it's all good. Some of us are more suspicious than others. That's fine. That's human nature. Michael can take it. Ask him.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 16:44:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: What about this, Susan?
Message:
Susan,

When Roger first caricatured and satirized Dettmers, the latter had a commercial website up, advertising his 'management training' skills and boasting that:

As the Managing Director of a Swiss-based Foundation from 1973 to 1982, he organized educational programs and events in over 25 countries. He also managed its world-wide business operations including travel services, event management, health food services, and publications and video productions generating revenues in excess of 100 million dollars in 1982.

Are you saying that that kind of spin WASN'T the fair target of a little ridicule?

You know, the years have passed and everyone's just plain 'moved on with their lives'. Well, hold on there. Isn't this web site all about standing up for a little truth and accuracy in the face of a wholesale revisionism campaign by the cult that loved us? I'd say that, given his vaulted position with the cult and the spin he chose to put on it in his own advertisement, Dettmers was fair meat.

Okay, since then, much to his credit and unlike other PAMs or former PAMs, Michael engaged us -- me initally -- in some dialogue. Over time, I think that dialogue has grown more open, more revealing. Now there are some who think that the only reason he ever talked with us, then or now, was to control the damage that Drek's 'expose' might have on him personally. And there's also a question about how open is open with respect to Michael but, personally, I give him credit on both counts. That is, I do think that he talked with us for reasons beyond just his own self-interest and I also give him credit, at this juncture, for a certain level of sincerity and candour.

But it's been a process.

I can tell you this. In my opinion, people like Joan Apter, who similarly advertises her 'management training' skills relying on her former 'client', Elan Vital, as resume back-up, or Charles Cameron, who's also actively advertising his services but fudging about his past, people who were indeed premie movers and shakers who definitely moved me and shook me, are all fair game to ridicule such as what Dettmers got.

I tried to explain this to you the other day but now it seems like you just didn't get it. Yes, for the thousandth time, you're right. If I, or you, or anyone else, had ever risen high in the ranks of the cult and enjoyed that lofty status for years, yes, I, your or that other person might well have some moral obligation to expose the cult further once they see through it themselves. But I didn't rise high and neither did you. So the issue's moot. Don't know why you can't see that.

Anyway, look at it this way. What if no one had ever challenged anything Michael had said. Well, for one thing, I doubt we'd have ever herad anything from him in the first place. Yes, I know that kind of contradicts what I said earlier about his presumed mixed motives for every communicating here but, come to think of it, when I did first talk with him, as he'll readily admit, his prime concern was clearing his own name.

Anyway, so Michael gave us some information and that was a good thing, right? I think so. More to the point, I'm sure the Hamster didn't like it and that's GOT to be a good thing.

But then Michael's credibility isn't just accepted at face value. He's confronted in various ways to open up a bit more. Is it pretty, all this confrontation? No, not necessarily. But then confrontation never is. Anyway, Michael DOES rise to the occasion (in my view) and THAT has to be good thing too, doesn't it?

This is all a good process! I'd hope that even Michael would acknowledge that. He's sharing more, we're learning more and it's all good. Some of us are more suspicious than others. That's fine. That's human nature. Michael can take it. Ask him.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 10:06:10 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: expose's - Maharaji said it himself
Message:
Well I guess there's different strokes for different folks. I don't like to pursue stuff about any of the premies or ex-premies as in Michael Dettmer's case.

But as you can see, I don't have any worries about exposing Maharaji though. You know what the man said:

'It's just between you and Guru Maharaj Ji.'

Yeah, nobody else comes into it.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 05:46:34 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Oh, I forgot about the Taming of the Shroom!
Message:
Yup, he made a brief cameo appearance as rob areson, who it seems had 'been reading the forum for a year or more....and now I'm leaving because you are all horrible to me (and have sussed out who I am)'

I'll have a look at the archives for the Taming of the Shroom tomorrow, sounds like it could be fun. Maybe I could email it to you so I don't clog the forum up too much. (and dont go pinging my isp, or whatever that geeky stuff is that you do!!!)

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:16:00 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: smart cards to prove membership in EV
Message:
here is a copy of a letter i just sent to EV today. you can gather the gist of whats happened- or, rather not happened-- from reading it:

smartcardoffice@attglobal.net,
Jai_Choix@webtv.net
Subject: where is my card?
your attention, please:
I attended the video knowledge review that was called and attended by maharaji in the Santa Monica Civic Center on april25th, 2000.
At that event, there was an elaborate setup in place with passport photo cameras and application forms, asking that as many attendees as possible fill out the forms and submit payment for smart cards that day.
I had my picture taken and submitted my payment, along with my completed form, in person that day, and took home with me a duplicate of the paperwork, as a receipt.
I did not leave the event until both I and the person behind the table, accepting my application, had verified that there was nothing missing and all was complete.
The person initialed my receipt documents, and wrote the serial numbers of my checks with the paid amounts, on my duplicate forms.

The fees I paid for this identification card were not tendered as a gift to maharaji. they were rendered as legal tender to your organization, as demanded by you, to protect my name as a legitimate, 27 year member of this experience. It has been six months since you took my photo and my money, and I expect my membership card in a timely return. six months is not a timely return.
I am concerned for my investment. you took my likeness and my state identification number. such a document should be in my possession. I am the only person in the world who has the right to present such an artifact as proof of my identity. any other use would constitute fraud and impersonation, both prosecutable crimes.

I want my card at once. if that is not possible, i want my fees refunded to me immediately and the photographs and card destroyed and the proof that you have done so, sent to me for my inspection. 'throwing it away' is inadequate. i want the remains in my possession and no one else's.'

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:41:53 (GMT)
From: bill---good one Janet
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: '27 year member of this experience' ha ha=nt
Message:
fghh
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 15:45:08 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: smart cards to prove membership in EV
Message:
Is there anything in the 'small print' on the forms that suggests the money is non-refundable? Perhaps you could scan it and (leaving out your personal details of course) email it to someone who can make it viewable here (maybe Sir Dave can host it, or the FAs).

Have you considered a small claims court? How about Judge Judy:)?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 13:41:21 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: smart cards to prove membership in EV
Message:
Janet,

I am not sure if you are aware of EV's policy on the SC. See

http://www.elanvital.org/smartcard.htm

Appears to be some execuse. Also, can I suggest that you keep all your paer work. They might prove useful at some time.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 12:09:53 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: DUMB cards to prove membership in EV
Message:
May i suggest that you get your money back

I mean a return ticket on the titanic isn't much use - especially as they will undoubtably change the system by the time you get round to using it.

Smart for someone - but not for you eh !!

Loaf

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:19:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: How much did you pay? (nt)
Message:
gggg
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 08:19:27 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's not just the money, it's the arrogance
Message:
I'm incensed (and not with extra special jasmine, either) at their 'fuck you, you're valueless; you don't deserve a timely response' way of doing business.
Every time i have paid for anything, they have taken months to get it processed and sent thru my bank.
I have had charges from ages back hit my balance when i least was prepared for it. In a respectful, ordinary businesslike world, things are done on time, with the understanding that time is money.
when it was merchandise, like a CD, it was merely agravating to wait that long for a charge outstanding to finally show up and clear.
But this is different. this is an electronic document that is computer trackable.
It has my state identification number on it like a driver's license.
It has my likeness on it in passport photo format.
it is photo identification, making me culpable for any use it is put to, by anyone.
Here in los angleles, identity theft is big business. so is credit fraud. EV did not make explicitly clear exactly what uses they intended to put these cards to. they were typically airy and vague and grandiose about the possibilities.
they talked about using them for tighter security at programs.
they talked about using them to make purchases from EV simpler.
they talked about using them to keep a running account of satellite pay-per-views.
they talked about using them to draw regular debit contributions.
if you reflect on it awhile, you begin to see this insidious shape taking form. computer tracking of each person. their attendance record. their donation record and amounts. their purchases. their satellite viewings. who's in there at the tight, committed center, never missing a stroke, and who's drifting, losing interest, falling off, not one of the real ones. at the touch of a keystroke, they can pull up your history and decide if you're one of them or not.
I deliberately did not put my bank account info on the entry form, though it was asked for.
No way in hell did i want some conniving sonofabitch sneaking money out of my account when i wasnt looking.
the more i think about it, the meaner i feel. I want my card, intact or destroyed; but either way,I am the only person in existence it was meant for, and who has the right to carry it, or not.
so --where the fuck is it??
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 15:49:11 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel - was I right or was I right?? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:33:04 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: my register says 30 and 10 dollars, total
Message:
one was for 'processing' and the other was for two passport photos
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:06:45 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: MICRO-RADIO BEING KILLED VERY SOON! (OT)
Message:
For you fans of micro-radio (per thread a week or so back)...

KEEP OUR AIRWAVES PUBLIC
In a blatant effort to curry favor with the corporate media, the
Democrats
and Republicans in the Senate are working to pass a bill that will kill
grassroots radio. In January 2000 the Federal Communications Commission
(FCC) voted to create new Low Power FM (LPFM) radio service. Local,
non-commercial stations could be built for between 5 and 10 thousand
dollars. Since then thousands of excited schools, activist groups, arts
organizations and all sorts of non-profits in every state have applied
or
prepared to apply to build a neighborhood radio station. Over 1300
applications for (LPFM) licenses have already been received by the FCC.

Legislation to gut the LPFM initiative has passed in the House of
Representatives
and is poised to be passed in the Senate THIS WEEK! The airwaves belong
to
the people, not corporate interests. We have no time to waste. The
Senate
will only be in session for a few more days. The bill to quash LPFM now
stands at 53 co-sponsors in the Senate, including many key Democrats.
Make
your Senator think twice before doing the bidding of the big
broadcasters.

Send to: The Honorable __________
United States Senate
Washington, DC 20510

To find your senator, go to www.senate.gov

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 02:43:08 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Here's why I keep on keeping on
Message:
A 1995 study at Darmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center found that one of the best predictors of survival amoung 232 heart-surgery patients was the degree to which the patients said they drew comfort and strength from religious faith. Those who did not had more than three times the death rate of those who did.

A survey of 30 years of research on blood pressure showed that churchgoers have lower blood pressure than non-churchgoers--5 mm lower, according to Dr. David Larson, (a psychiatrist at the National Institute for Healthcare Research) even adjusted to account for smoking and other risk factors.

A 1996 National Institute on Aging study found that those who atend religious services are less depressed and physically healthier than those who don't attend or who worship at home.

Numerous studies have found lower rates of depression and anxiety-related illness among the religiously committed.

Nonchurchgoers have been found to have a suicide rate four times higher than church regulars.

Larson and Dr. Jeffrey Levin have studied more than 200 studies that touch on the role of religion and health. According to them, most of these studies offer evidence that religion is good for ones health.

Deepak Chopra, Herbert Benson, Andrew Weil, and Larry Dossey to name a few, also agree.

So what is wrong with meditating and going to the occasional video? Suits me fine.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 10:12:10 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: what you have is not religion
Message:
My father was a classic type A until he had a heart attack. biting, sarcastic, untrusting, unsharing,closed, guarded, ambitious and driven.drank, smoked, ate red meat.
then he had a five-bypass. quit smoking. quit drinking.quit red meat. read everything he could get his eyes on about surviving heart attacks.
he got Dr.Dean Ornish's book. if you really care about the health of your heart, you will know this book. Ornish found that the single most important thing in life after a heart attack wasnt diet or meds, it was whether you shared of yourself honestly, emotionally, caringly, genuinely and let other people in where you really were.whether you could let go of needing to be on top and control everything and having things your way.
having a religion isnt about show. it isnt about socializing with the right people or punching a clock at the local house of worship to rack up brownie points. it sure as hell isnt about abasing yourself to the ego of a fat self-promoting figure who is greedy for your income.
religion is about love of god. love of your fellow man. love for the earth. love for doing good.love for the animals. religion is about being honest. being ethical. about making things right and doing what is right. it is about not doing harm. it does not divide people into us and them. it does not committ genocide for any reason.religion does not seek to glut oneself while others starve or suffer, and it certainly does not demand that others do so to fulfill ones own specious whims.
maharaj ji does not fit the description of real religion. and no matter how he tries to package knowledge, that isnt one either.
if you want the benefits of real religion, help out at a homeless shelter, a battered women's shelter, a food bank. be a nursing home volunteer, a hospital volunteer, an AIDS helper, a daycare assisstant with some education. work for head start. teach an adult to read.
if you want the exalted feeling of religion, join a church choir. go on a zen retreat.start a support group or go to one. live the 12 steps. get a therapist. do yoga--the whole regimen, not just four silly techniques.
if youre really daring, start writing letters or a journal to jesus and see what happens. remember to listen as well as talk. you may be shocked at what happens.
i know i was!
but maharaj ji? knowledge? you have no religion, there,my friend. you're serving mammon. youre not rendering unto god, nor to caesar, there.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 03:49:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: And look at the price you pay!
Message:
Doomed forever to never look too far beneath the surface of your latest, simplistic 'inspirational' fix, you announce yourself to the world as a Happy Clapper. Anonymously, of course.

Pretty Orwellian, Dog. There you are, going to watch banal, empty videos of Fearless Leader because, somehow (and Lord knows you don't really care why) they 'work'. Buoyed up by a host of other superficial flim-flam men, past or present, each carefully supporting the other so long as their business benefits.

And the more truth you read about Maharaji here the more you truth you have to ignore.

Tell me, Dog, did you know that Maharaji bought a multi-million dollar yacht? Secretly? While he was having his lackeys squeeze middle-class premies -- not you, I mean, but the ones who really trust Maharaji -- for every last drop they could give to support his 'work'?

Do you have an opinion about that?

You're a coward, Dog. And if that allows you to live a little longer, so be it.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:18:11 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Great name for a band, that ...
Message:
Pretty Orwellian Dog
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:11:13 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And look at the price you pay!
Message:
Doomed forever to never look too far beneath the surface of your latest, simplistic 'inspirational' fix, you announce yourself to the world as a Happy Clapper. Anonymously, of course.

Hey it beats drugs!

Pretty Orwellian, Dog. There you are, going to watch banal, empty videos of Fearless Leader because, somehow (and Lord knows you don't really care why) they 'work'. Buoyed up by a host of other superficial flim-flam men, past or present, each carefully supporting the other so long as their business benefits.

Flim-flam men? All of the people I mentioned are MDs.

And the more truth you read about Maharaji here the more you truth you have to ignore.

For me the focus has always been on meditation, my experience of K, the road less traveled, the path of the pilgrim.

Tell me, Dog, did you know that Maharaji bought a multi-million dollar yacht? Secretly? While he was having his lackeys squeeze middle-class premies -- not you, I mean, but the ones who really trust Maharaji -- for every last drop they could give to support his 'work'?

I do read the site Jim. If you want to give, give.

Do you have an opinion about that?.

Yes, IMO he has enough money.

You're a coward, Dog. And if that allows you to live a little longer, so be it.

Thanks Jim, you're all heart.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:41:59 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: And look at the price you pay! TUNNEL VISION
Message:
OK..Here we go. Now pay close attention:

MEDITATION= can be good, can be nothing!
MAHARAJI= bad...unnecessary..waste of time & money!
BEING AN ACTIVE PREMIE= fear and/or guilt motivated!
(And it is VERY debatable if it is 'better than drugs'...depends on what drug, what dosage, how often.)

Did you get it that time? Your question has been answered so bugger off and try thinking for ten or fifteen minutes. And no matter how you try to stall it off...you will die!(FA...not a threat, but reference to orginal post)

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:25:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: That's it?
Message:
Pretty wormy, Dog. Even for you.

All of your answers were either flip, superficial or downright evasive.

But then that's the kind of person you've become, isn't it?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:04:09 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's it!
Message:
Pretty wormy, Dog. Even for you.

All of your answers were either flip, superficial or downright evasive.

But then that's the kind of person you've become, isn't it?

What? I am engaging in a practice that has been the heart of religious mysticism for centuries. It is the opposite of the flight or fight response.

To take an hour or so a day to get in touch with silence and mellow out is flip and superficial?

To get in touch with the Spirit, Being, Nothingness is evasive? We were actually engineered for that.

For me to write in and give you the above scientific information on health and religion means I'm wormy? Sheesh!

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:45:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Do you REALLY think that's what I meant? (nt)
Message:
gggg
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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 22:27:22 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No of course not, I'm psychic (nt)
Message:
Just be straight with yourself. Don't make believe. Phoniness is the worst part of spiritual life. Trust yourself!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 02:51:45 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: ever think about genetics?
Message:
My cholesterol level is 'disgustingly low' as my Dr. put it.
And it's not due to my diet. Every time I start to gain weight I go on a low carb high protein diet.
And I start to get lumpy every summer.

hey, you'd be happy for me. I received communion at the Catholic mass I attended last week.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:28:58 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Preparing For The Next Phase
Message:
I have to say that the administrator(s) of this board is a saint for putting up with the insanity.

If, as I and others have predicted,the end of M's reign of insanity is coming any day now, there may be a lot of new people coming aboard. I would love to see them find a refuge of sanity, not the free-for-all pie throwing that has been the case.

I highly recommend psychiatry, twelve-step programs, and other support groups for healing the wounds of following the strangest, most crazy-making person I have ever heard of.

I know that psychiatry is expensive. I'm lucky that it's pretty much free up here in Canada. Finding a good one can be a problem but if you look sincerely you can probably find one.

I think this is the big issue right now - getting healing for those who have followed M at any time and who need help with this. It would be nice if M's assets could be liquidated (if he had an iota of a heart he would do it voluntarily) and the funds go to healing the wounded.

I've already brought up the issue of lawsuits, either individual or class-action, but there seems to be a concensus that M is immune from civil or criminal proceedings.

As I said in a previous message, attendance at the Vancouver satellite event last week was about 12 people after being around 35 consistently. This obervation coincided perfectly with my prior sense of doom around M's stint as teacher of knowledge.

Hope you are all well and would love to hear intelligent comments.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 06:48:14 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Preparing For The Next Phase
Message:
People aren't attending the satelite broadcast publicly because they are now watching them in there homes as requested by M. Aspirants will receive knowledge by video in their homes.

What are these synchronized teamsters wasting their time for? There will be nothing to do..... except raise dollars dollars dollars for M and his family to live on - and programmes from time to time I suppose. Talk about monkeys on strings!

Curious George - the monkey without a string

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:22:04 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Good Point
Message:
I also recommend a good therapist to anyone trying to deal with exiting the Maharaji cult. But you need to find someone who has had experience with cults. Many therapists do not understand the phenomenon of a cult and how it completely screws up your thought processes.

This forum is about free speech. It serves a certain function, and I think it does it quite well. But no one should be under the illusion that you could ever use an internet website to get counseling. That just won't work. Everyone is different, and we are all complicated human beings. As complicated human wonderful, but always unpredictable. I wouldn't have it any beings, the interactions are sometimes heated, sometimes other way.

There is no 'one-size-fits-all,' which is one of the things I learned, the hard way, from having been in a cult that ostensibly offered a simplistic answer for the question of what is the purpose of my life.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:34:49 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sorry, garbled post
Message:
That middle paragraph was SUPPOSED to say:

This forum is about free speech. It serves a certain function, and I think it does it quite well. But no one should be under the illusion that you could ever use an internet website to get counseling. That just won't work. Everyone is different, and we are all complicated human beings, and as complicated human beings the interactions are sometimes heated and sometimes wonderful, but always unpredictable. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Hey, I blame it on the software.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:14:00 (GMT)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Be Careful About Recommending the 12 Steps...
Message:
Hi Steven,

In researching the dynamics of cults, I have come upon a few sites which list AA and other 12 step groups as possibly being cults. I have experienced being in 12 step groups and the 1st step is: I came to realize I am POWERLESS over ______ fill in the blank.

It's very controversial right now because with AA, states are mandating drunk drivers to attend, and from my experience, those groups are a) sexist b) mainly christian c) you're not allowed to disagree with the 'old timers' and their opinions about the 12 step process.

I came to AA with a friend who lost her license and I was driving her to the meetings, so I attended. I saw some real abuse there and I caution anyone to be careful about the 12 steps.

I know AA has helped people stop drinking, but their general rule is: you must attend 90 meetings in 90 days. That's a bit too much indoctrination for me. And in AA, the Big Book is so outdated it's actually hilarious to read. They call it their 'Bible.'

Just a caution...everyone needs to make their own choices.

Best, Cynthia G.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:29:09 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Be Careful About Recommending the 12 Steps...
Message:
Hi Cynthia -
Most of my family goes to 12-Step groups. I cannot handle them because of the 'satsang' vibe, and narrow thinking ('AA is the only way to stop drinking') but they have really helped my sister and my mother. I do agree with you that many people in AA exhibit cult-like behavior - especially with the slogans, saying AA is the only way, and telling people what they can and cannot say or do, but I also think that many of these people who exhibit this behavior are not really working the steps. Also, there are some really wonderful people in AA and other 12-step groups - people who are not dogmatic, and who can form a great support group.

You wrote:
It's very controversial right now because with AA, states are mandating drunk drivers to attend, and from my experience, those groups are a) sexist b) mainly christian c)you're not allowed to disagree with the 'old timers' and their opinions about the 12 step process.

Well, personally, I feel like drunk drivers have lost a lot of their rights by committing that act already, and they'd probably be better off in AA than in jail. Also, the '90 meetings in 90 days' rule is basically intended to stop people from drinking at night, which is when most people drink. I am not sure if it's legally mandated, but it is an old AA slogan. Obviously if you are going to AA by your own choice, you don't have to do that.

There is a great chapter in the book 'The Guru Papers' about AA and other 12-Step groups. I'd been so indoctrinated in the AA culture that it really opened my eyes. However, the authors don't discourage people from attending meetings - they just point out some things that would be useful to many people who are participating in a 12-Step group.

Re the sexism and the christianity in 12-step groups - I know it's often there, but it is not present in every group or meeting. Christianity was NEVER intended to be a part of AA, and I believe it is inappropriate unless everyone attending the meeting is a Christian. The 'higher power' is NOT Jesus - it can be your conscience, your higher self, mother nature, or whatever 'as you perceive' it. Usually, 'Christian' meetings will say that they are up-front, but not always. There are also women-only meetings - my mother goes to these and they tend to be a lot more relevant to her than the more traditional meetings.

If you want to do a 12-step program, you have to find a particular meeting that you feel comfortable with (and I understand that there is not much choice sometimes if you live in a remote area.) Groups and meetings tend to be really different from one another because of the people who attend and who are attracted to particular meetings. And if you have to have a sponsor, PLEASE be careful about who you choose!

Just my thoughts - as you said, people need to make their own choices. Personally, the 12-step philosophy has been a big help to me, but meetings have not.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:41:29 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Be Careful About Recommending the 12 Steps...
Message:
Hiya Katie and all on this thread,
You're right about there being quite a bias toward AA as the 'best' treatment option for alcoholism. Al-anon (AA's support group for loved ones of alcoholics) really helped me, but my hubby couldn't stomach AA and found more help in a program that didn't talk about 'the higher power.' Like Joe said, in a post above 'one size doesn't fit all.' What I find completely comforting and helpful (the idea of a higher power) others find to be a barrier to their recovery.

I agree that a good therapist can do wonders. Finding the right one is a trip though. I had a couple of real good ones when I grew away from the guru trip. Joe is right, the forum can't be anyone's therapist. God help anyone who is looking for the forum to be that, more like a shock treatment center!

Hope you enjoyed football tonight Katie. Heard mention of the Hokies on the news and thought of you. I hope they are winning, if they aren't even playing tonight forgive me for being completely football impaired. The premiere of ER featured a football-related riot which was really scary. SOmetimes I think I watch that show for its cathartic value. 'You think you got problems, well watch THIS' No matter how bad my life can seem, what is happening to some poor soul on ER is MUCH worse.
Gotta go to bed.
Helen

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:32:01 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Hi Helen (ot)
Message:
Hi Helen -
You are correct that the Hokies played last night - they beat West Virginia and are still unbeaten so are the #2 college football team in the nation. (Applications to go to school here are up 12% since VT played in the national championship game last year.)

The game was nationally televised and they usually have some great shots of the Blacksburg area during it, but this was at night so no go. Tell Gary to watch one of the games some time if he wants to - the QB is pretty amazing and will probably win the Heisman trophy this year.

We live about 2 miles (maybe less) from the stadium, so we could hear all the fireworks going off after the game. It WAS enjoyable too! They played better in the second half than they have all year - and West Virginia, who I also like, played well too.

What you said about ER was pretty funny - that's how I feel when I listen to country music sometimes! It actually cheers me up.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 22:44:09 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Hi Helen (ot)
Message:
Hey it still cracks me up that you are a football fan. I might watch them Hokies just to see the QB do his thing. But I will have to have Gary explain all the plays to me. At least I sorta understand baseball. All is not hopeless.

Hey this new fangled country crossover stuff doesn't have the same pathos of the genu-whine old stuff Loretta Lynn and George Straight used to write. Divorce, drinkin', brawling, womanizing--now those were the themes you can sink yer teeth into. My favorite country song is 'I like my women just a little on the trashy side' ho ho

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:05:38 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: the 12 Steps...
Message:
i didnt find the Big Book hilarious. I found it painful, and difficult to read, because it was so confronting about what i havent found the honesty and nerve to do in myself, yet.i never once heard anyone talk about christ or christianity in a meeting. the higher power is a personal entity, individual, and not a subject for criticism by one attendee to another. it can be anything a person in recovery experiences as being more reliable and more trusted than themselves. it can be the group they attend. it can be their sponsor. it can be their therapist. it can be an author whose words hit them as powerful. it can be an unspeakable belief that theres something bigger than themselves, and all of us, that they can turn to, or learn to.
in my case, surprisingly enough, my being abused ended the day i let go of control, and let the police take over and handle what i had been stubbornly and mistakenly trying to take on, by myself. I had no idea that letting go to a higher power THAT way would work as it did. I thought i was strong. i thought i was persuasive. i thought i was superior. i thought i would be able to get thru to the guy. i got my foot broken for my 'patience'. i had to endure both of us getting arrested together, in full knowledge of the law, in order to bring it to an end. i had to go jail, to court, to counseling. i had to be slack and unresponsive when he came around afterwards, in violation of his probation, pleading to reconcile, and within minutes, was trying to wring my neck, to get some reaction out of me. when looked down and he saw what he was doing, and that i stood there, utterly mute and dead to it, he screamed and ran away. I abdicated control and turned it over to to a higher power. in my case, the courts and the police.
unlike the cult of MJ, there is no person, there, to be worshipped and paid tribute to. the higher power is whatever you feel it to be, for you.no one is permitted to criticize anyone else's walk. each person is advised to honestly think about what they themselves have done-to themselves, to others, and to sincerely ask that power, whatever they conceive it to be, to help them make right.
the realization-- that believing in control is a futile notion, is a lifesaving understanding, in instances you havent thought about, until you're at wit's end, in your life, with it. such as: you can't reform a drunk.you can't reform a batterer.you can't reform yourself. you can't change your childhod.it is not your fault that the drunk drinks, that the batterer hits you, that your parents treat/ed you the way they did. it is not within your mental power to change the addictive chemistry of nicotine, alcohol, heroin, crack, cocaine, percodan, morphine, vicodin, et al. you are not morally weak because you can't ingest these chemicals and remain sober or behave healthily. your problem is not a lack of will power.
the 12 steps work. they are damned tough if you are working them for real. if its easy, you're not facing yourself yet.
it is not a guilt trip. it is not a social club. its not a god trip.no one's god there is anyone else's god. there are atheist 12 step groups, and they work just as well.
you are among people who have done the same things you have done. no one feels they are in a position to judge any other, because whatever you've done, whatever you've felt, whatever you've caused others and yourself, you realize someone else in the room did it too.
instead of being looked down on, you find yourself welcomed, valued,forgiven, understood, and addressed with honesty and respect. the meetings are kept in confidence. everyone speaks about themselves, not about anyone else.
all this is a far cry from cult mindset.
No, i found the Big Book to be anything but hilarious.
Maharaj Ji should try doing the steps. He IS an addict. He would run aground on the 4th step and smash the bow of his vaunted ship. I predict he'd take years to get through it, and on to the 5th. If he ever made it to the 8th, all that we have called for, here on the forum, would finally unfold, and he'd have the rest of his life to experience the rest of them.
i find it laughable that he named his ship the 'Serenity'. we ought to bombard him with the 'Serenity Prayer' for the rest of his life.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:32:30 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Be Careful About Recommending the 12 Steps...
Message:
Thank you. Good point.

I'm assuming that the people reading my messages are intelligent and can follow the twelve-step principle 'Take What You Like And Leave The Rest'.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:34:08 (GMT)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Be Careful About Recommending the 12 Steps...
Message:
Hi Katie and Janet of Venice,

I appreciate the help you have received from the 12 steps. You're right Katie, being in Vermont makes it very difficult to pick and chose particular groups--everything is far away when you live in a very rural place. At the time I went I was censored by an 'old timer' because he had said something very sexist and abusive to a very young woman. I don't think he realized it, or even meant to be mean, but when I responded to his words, the moderator of the meeting cut me off.

I know that AA and other 12 step programs do work, and it's not my place or intention to discourage anyone from getting support from whatever suits them and they are comfortable with. My experience was pretty negative, hence, my warning.

There are other programs such as 'rational recovery' which, unfortunately doesn't exist in Vermont. It's just that after giving my life over to someone who I believed with all my heart was my 'higher power in person,' it's difficult for me to handle the steps.

It's just my experience, I can't tell others what to do. It doesn't apply to all. Thanks for sharing your positive experiences with 12 steps. I hope you are well,

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:29:31 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Preparing For The Next Phase of exodus
Message:
Hilly Seitlin wad the first committed ex premie i ever met, and when his name came up on this board a few days backwrote to him, asking if he would be intrested in coming here and talking to us. he replied to my email and said that he has been a therapist for 20 years and did exit counseling for people leaving cults for some time after he himself left. he might be a good one to appeal to in preparation for what you feel is coming. go back into the inactive recent index, around oct 3rd, and look for the posts about him. his site and his email address are posted there.

Quint, i think you're absolutely right. i wish i, myself had had compassionate psychiatric help. be aware that psychiatry today is a specializd field that confines itself to the prescription side of treating disorders, and that the head, emotional, psychological stuff is handled by counselors and therapists now, not MD's. I have such a psychiatrist, but she has only been able to prescribe me meds, for what sounded to her like obsessive-compulsive disorder. i was on Luvox™ for a year, and then she switched me over to Zoloft™ this year. Looking back, I think my behavior was the product of my deep anxiety about whether there was something wrong with me for drifting so far out of the day to day lifestyle of the cult (all that guilt programming about 'rot like a hell') and compulsively looking for a way to absolve that guilt by obsessive action. and i believe i'm going to tell her this at my next visit.

but if your gut sense is true, then we need to make our help widely known. media. personal presence near events. signal jamming of the satellite broadcasts???(sorry--thats my 60's radical thinking still lurking around from the rennie davis days of chicago 68!!!lol) any other ideas??

janet

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:56:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: So you're local, huh?
Message:
Steve,

I'm in Victoria. I know a lot of the Vancouver premies from years ago -- like a LOT of years -- when I lived in the ashram there.

Care to talk? I'm at 250-360-1040

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 01:17:33 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah were practically neighbors, you Jim and I
Message:
That's a scary thought, isn't it ?!?

Here, call my modem sometime. 360-496-3434

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:23:42 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: DECA and 'Marketable Skills/Businesses'
Message:
I thought I would bring this up top because I think it's important. Down below there was a discussion about people getting marketable skills from working at DECA. They went on to start aviation manufacturing businesses, or went to work at other places because of the things they learned there. This may well be true and I don't discount that.

I agree that some people may have gained some skills at DECA, or maybe other places in the cult, but I would submit that the vast majority did not, and that DECA really was a slave labor camp. Most of the workers were not paid, and those that were were paid subsistence wages while they worked day and night, sometimes under very dangerous conditions to give the Perfect Master the Boeing 707 luxury plane he wanted, which he, by the say discarded shortly after he got it.

I was a slave at DECA. I learned nothing 'marketable' there, and I saw a lot of suffering and abuse that went on there, both to the workers, to their families, and to their relationships. I think the DECA period and the DECA project is one of the more shameful result of Maharaji's selfish megalomania.

And if you suggest that people got skills working at DECA, you have to compare that to what they would have been doing were they not at DECA. Perhaps they would have been much more successful doing something else, and they would have had the added advantage of not being slaves in the meantime. They would have also had the advantage of being self-directed people, which is a real value in my opinion.

I really hand it to people who, through their own ingenuity and hard work, took what happened at DECA and made something positive out of it, just like many of us are trying to do here. I certainly don't criticize them.

But I would also submit that the number of people who learned marketable skills in the cult is TINY in comparison to the number of people who wasted their skills, some for many years, and came out of the cult not better, just older, poorer, and feeling ripped off (those who are lucky enough to have actually come out of it, that is).

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 08:06:55 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: So tell us about your career, the Joe.(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 06:01:06 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Why? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 03:12:57 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: DECA and 'Marketable Skill--well said...
Message:
Joe-I think you stated the case well about DECA.I worked there for about a year and a half.I gave up a relationship and a teaching career to do it,because night after night people like Randy Prouty would get up and tell us in the satsang hall that the plane was the 'missing piece' for m's work.Once he had the plane,he could meet with world leaders,hold conferences on it all over the world,see the premies all over the world etc.

Some people did learn skills there,while many were grunts,hanging sheetrock and hauling trash without ever being able to move up and gain more skills.It was considered 'ego' or 'desire' to try and develop yourself by many premies,so many people languished there,and were paid $3.90/hour(minimum wage at the time),and actually worked 60-80 hours/week,while being paid for 40 hours.Their actual wage was around $2-3/hour.

Some of the construction bosses and aviation guys went on to make contacts and start companies of their own and are millionaires today.They took advantage of the premie labor pool and exploited it.Michael Roark,Ritchie Groden,Jim Colie,Brian Stamp,Dwight Sellers etc. are all multi-millionaires today because of it.

As for myself, I hated every day of it,regretted giving up a relationship and a 7 year career,but rebounded and got into new things.But overall,DECA was slave labor,the most toxic work place in the US,and extremely manipulative.Also,lots of 'funny money' went down in the front offices and out in the field.

m's version of it?
Recently steve sardoni said that m told him that 'no one will ever realize how many lives were saved,as a result of that project'.
Does that tell us something about the difference in our perspectives(m and us) or what?

LA-EX

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:45:23 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: DECA and OSHA
Message:
I'D LIKE TO KICK mj's ass around the block for that crap ass pronouncement. had they not been working at DECA, none of them would have been exposed to the aggressively toxic chemicals he made them work in, at double time and no protection. if they had not been at DECA, anywhere else they could have been would have been environmentally safer to work, paid fair wages, been under the US labor laws for safety, hours, wages, social security and accident care.
ooh, how i want that fucker busted.
where is the worst of the DECA abuses recorded? i think I'll forward that to america's most wanted, to stoke my case to them.

oh i almost forgot--the mystery toxic dump in the everglades?? that would never have happened either. where was that part posted??

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:49:34 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: DECA and OSHA
Message:
well, I have to agree that we were doused with methel ethel keytones and other solvents in a big way.
Washing ALL the parts of the plane with MEK without respirators or gloves. No telling how many of the paint crew bit the dust early.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 11:32:28 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: That is a good question janet.
Message:
I do not think it is documented, unless I am wroung. It will make a nice addition if someone could relate the whole story.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:47:13 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Very true Joe
Message:
It sounds like most of what happened there was horrible. The only point I was making was that someone working in or having an aircraft related company after working at DECA is not unheard of.

I am not trying to defend it but I do very much recall that when my daughter was born DECA also covered the expenses of her birth under health insurance. He had never had any sort of a job with benefits before so this was great. And then, he got the job in Santa Barbara at Tracor and was making 12.00 an hour! And had benefits! I know it sounds ludicrous but at this stage in my life it was a great leap ahead.

I had no idea all the ashram premies worked there for free or about all the other horror stories. I have no reason to doubt them though, sounds like the premiedom I knew. I am sure the vast majority of people could have been doing something better with their lives.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:30:52 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Very true Joe
Message:
Susan,

I understand the point you were making and I don't disagree, but I think we should clarify something, regarding timing when it comes to DECA. There are a number of time periods at DECA:

1. The period Cynthia and I are talking about was from late 1978 or early 1979 until about 1981. During that time, DECA was formed for the purpose of converting the Boeing 707 form a passenger plane to a luxury 'residence' plane with the gold toilet and all the rest. Hundreds of ashram premies were called down to Miami (they were not ASKED, they were TOLD) to work on the project. In addition, community premies, including whole families were also brought to Miami to work on the plane. No one was paid. The ashram premies remained ashram premies, and the community premies, to some extent at least, had some living expenses covered.

Like Cynthia said, Maharaji had a lot of other pet projects going on there as well, and I recall at least one of his Rolls Royces in the warehouse. He used to come to the warehouse in Hialeah, and walk through on a regular basis. People worked day and night under dangerous conditions and were supposed to feel supremely lucky and grateful for the opportunity. Also, during this period, millions of dollars were poured into DECA from money raised among the premies, mostly in the USA.

2. Then, after the plane was finished, around 1981 or 1982, 'DECA' continued on, in a more limited operation, trying to get contracts from outside companies. The idea was that it would be a cult business and make money for Maharaji. For some time after that, the ashram premies continued to be slaves, and the non-ashram premies were also paid slave wages. They even had community premies come to DECA to work in the operation as 'service' because the idea was it was 'service' to the Perfect Master, still, just like during the 707 operation, even though it was no longer working on the 707.

3. Later, DECA gradually morphed into a more 'regular' business (I think they made airline seats) and actually paid people who worked there, what I don't know. This was probably after there were no longer ashrams. My understanding is that at some point this company when bankrupt and closed down. I assume the business the Dettmers brothers set up utilized a lot of those workers who used to work at DECA.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:00:35 (GMT)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: DECA WAS A SLAVE LABOR CAMP!!!
Message:
Interesting responses (or triggers??) to my post below re: the blow-hard's quote.

I was called to DECA when it was still in the very small warehouse in Hialeah. I was called from the ashram where I lived and thought I had the opportunity of my life to speak with m every day on the phone, do administrative/secretarial work for him, in addition to preparing his office for his visits.

By the time we got to the big 'Complex' the 707 had been acquired, and everything was geared up to start calling hundreds of premies down to Miami. I lived in the Broadripple which was a dank, smelly, disgusting old hotel infested with bugs (especially those huge palmetto bugs that totally freaked me out).

Once in the 100,000 sq.ft. complex, m moved just about all of his pet projects there: One Foundation had a studio; all of his vehicles were shipped from Malibu and his mechanics were there, initiators met with him there in the satsang room, and he had someone setting up a video library. The number of cars were beyond belief. I can't imagine the cost of them, not to mention insurance, etc.

I was in the design room which was a medium sized room with windows overlooking the main warehouse where people were working on laminates and metals, using chemicals that permeated the place. The ashram premies, most of whom lived at the Broadripple, received an allowance of $10.00 per week (it may have been $15.00).

I worked consistently for nearly a year on no sleep. I consumed gallons of coffee and took small naps (1-2 hours), and often was at the complex for 72 hours straight.

It was slave labor without a doubt. There were no safety or OSHA type regulations because it was not only a secret operation to the premies at large, but it was also a secret to all vendors, and of course to the state of Florida. He was always referred to as 'The Client.'

I was one of the first to collapse and I remember feeling terrible shame and guilt for not being able to go on anymore--I thought I was a comlete failure. I slept for two weeks straight after I was 'relieved of my service.' After a few weeks I worked with the attorney at the DLM offices processing divorces for premies who wanted to join the ashram, including those who had children! I couldn't count how many divorces we processed. Ashram premies who still had legal spouses were included in this divorce mill.

I felt like I had been thrown away, but I couldn't face the fact that m would do such a thing to me. I thought he actually knew me but within a couple of months I was shipped up to Gainesville, where I was supposed to rest. After four months the community coordinator forced me to go back to work. I argued with him about the fact that I needed to rest--I was recovering from a physical breakdown, hypoglycemia, etc. and was very weak. But they knew I had the skills to make money.

Maharaji has a lot of nerve saying he saved lives through that project. That is ludicrous. As far a gaining skills, well, the only thing I left with was the ability to work with a 'Top Executive' type person, which I really already knew how to do.

Now I remember things about him at DECA that were so mean and cruel. He'd ridicule people in front of others. He made unreasonable demands that could never be questioned, after all, he was GURU MAHARAJ JI! He often took draftsmen off of the airplane project to work on modifications for his residence in Miami, such as: designing furniture, a dock for his boats and other things he just had to have.

Whenever he entered our office (which was very often) we all had to stand, be quiet unless spoken to, and wait until he was finished. I remember that the premies he spoke to the most were the actual designers and while they stood with him looking over design perspectives or whatever, one by one, they'd crawl under the table and kiss his bare, sandaled feet. UCH!

It was in Gainesveille that I finally made the decision to move back to Conn. where my family is. I had to go to work, but had no place to live so I bounced from place to place, friends and family until I could afford my own place.

I have to add this: when I entered the ashram I was serious about dedicating my whole life to m. I gave away all of my personal possessions and I followed the rules. Yes, there were many of us who were sincerely trying to do his 'agya.' We sang arti twice a day to an altar, and we each had our own personal altars in our rooms. From my perspective it was running pretty well.

The Broadripple was a way-station for us slaves, but they did have morning and evening arti, etc. We slaves never had the time.

When I got back to my home state I stopped practicing k, didn't go to satsang and removed myself from the whole scene. I felt tremendous guilt, but fortunately I met my husband and was experiencing for the first time in my life a real love relationship with a real man. We're still married, 17 years, 19 years together--best friends. I was shocked when I heard that m closed down the ashrams. It was so incongruous to what we ashram premies had been promised by m. Even though I left the ashram of my own free will, I felt a tremendous betrayal by m. Just because that all happened many years ago doesn't minimize the pain and suffering, not to mention the financial distress that he put his ashram premies in by that betrayal. Beyond that, he placed all of us into our own individual spiritual crises because from my understanding, we had made a mutual promise to M. If we dedicated out whole lifes to him, he would take care of us for life. Prior to all of that he always referred to us as 'HIS' ashram premies.

From my perspective, maharaji is a fraud, liar, betrayor and the greediest person I have ever encountered. I'm trying not to swear in this forum because I can have a pretty foul mouth, but he is a rotten son of a bitch and fucking grown-up, bratty mental case.

Cynthia G.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:25:43 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: great post I agree (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:58:43 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Yes,GURU SLAVERY IS ABOLISHED!! FREE FREE FREE(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:12:14 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: I nominate Cynthia's post as **BEST** (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:17:12 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I second Joe--very powerful, Cynthia (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:59:34 (GMT)
From: Moldy-Oldie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: May I be the tertiary vote? EXCELLENT!(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 17:04:12 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Moldy-Oldie
Subject: I'll add mine !!!!!! BEST !!!!!!
Message:
That was really bad, I never imagined that could be that bad.

We've had bad things here too, but never that bad!!!

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 03:54:32 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: BEST !!!!!!
Message:
Man, that was a great post, Cynthia. Man, that was a HORRIBLE time you described. A slave camp indeed. I wish every premie still in love with M could read that post the very first thing when they stumble upon the forum!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:41:44 (GMT)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I remember the Rolls....
Message:
Royce in the warehouse. The reason it was there was to have the seats redone--by the seamstresses who already had their plates full with all of the mock-up plane seats they were working on. It was a big one too. A stretch limo, surrounded by ropes, like the ones in banks, so no one would touch it.

Bye for now,
Cynthia G.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:13:17 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: good post Cynthia
Message:
Thank you for sharing it.
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:07:45 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Why are we focusing on shait?
Message:
Why are we perpetuating the darkness by continuing to place quotes from PP the Hamster on this bulletin board and going over them like Hasidic Jews poring over the Talmud?

Don't intelligent people know that paying attention to something bad only increases the bad in them?

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:54:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Sorry, Steve, I'm not with you there
Message:
The quotes do one thing one one thing only -- prove how stupid the cult is.

Frankly, I don't know what you're talking about when you say they 'perpetuate the darkness.'

As if....

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:55:58 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Why are we focusing on shait?
Message:
Hasidic Jews, interesting words, what are they?
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:54:22 (GMT)
From: Gordon Showcase
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: These peeple aren't inteelegent
Message:
Because if they were they wouldnt have turned away from there master.

The reason why they keep writting bits of Maharajis discorses is because his words are eternal and even on this expremy sight the glory of the master comes shighning threw.

I have said it before and ill say it again - these people are loosers. But no, someone will come along and say I aren't right in saying that. They think they no better but only Maharaji really nows what is happening and before long, when faze four comes then these expremys will be sirprised. Oh yes! For the time is comming soon. You just weight and see.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 01:14:54 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: Phase 2 Gordon, it's always phase 2 (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:17:58 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Why are we focusing on shait?
Message:
If a detective is trying to solve a crime and gather evidence, he/she has to go over all salient points in microscopic detail.

That's the way I see it. Mind you, I wouldn't let it rule my life. There's far more important things to do, like sleeping, for instance.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:16:33 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: All an illusion steve
Message:
works the other way too, only focus on the positive leads to denial and greater disaster.
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:38:52 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: yeah hamzen and didn't someone say
Message:
Those who forget the past are destined to repeat it? Just some guy :)

As you see I am back here. Always good to hear from you.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:55:04 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Quite,
Message:
mind you after the resurrection of those old arguments about aggression here I better be careful and not rant about new age cliches!

Hope you're coping with everything your end ok, been meaning to e-mail you for weeks, but you know how it gets!

I just quit working under a boss who has destroyed probably the most radical place on this planet for people with ld's purely because she would only think positive, all the good staff have now left because she refused to look at the serious team problems we had and deal with them, and even now while it's disintegrating she's still in denial. She would have made a great premie.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:00:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: new age
Message:
It's a tough one to deal with. A cult unto itself in many ways.
I have a few friends who could be categorized as new age but they are able to break out when needed and would not have done what your boss did. But I know the other type and avoid them.

Don't worry about email. It's only working half the time lately.
I'm ok. Coping as best as can. Reading and posting here instead of working and all. But that is how it has to be right now.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 01:29:52 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: You're stronger than me babes
Message:
Whenever I come across that stuff now I come out in a psycho rash, start becoming all street anarchist baader-meinhoffish, there's only one person I know who I can tolerate it from. I'm sure it's a weakness in me, I even deny the stuff there that is useful for me. Guess it must be big boy and all that slack thinking he completely fed off, well that and seeing up close how useless most alt types are at communicating with other people. It's so white middle-class I'm alright jack shirley maclaineish, and all because people can't deal with loss of hope and the state of this planet, uurgh.

The weird thing about my ex-boss is, she abhors spiritual stuff, and apart from this positive thinking shit is a pragmatic northerner (no illusions), twuly bizarre.

Hey off on another tack, getting a newsletter together for mates, photgraphs, small articles, if you fancy?? Getting it together over the next month, talking house shit, modern design and lifestyle, zen minimalism, eco awareness, fashion, etc etc but open for the quirky too. Love to have a bit of your writing in.

And last but not least, you haven't got any voice activated software for power macs?? Then I might get my backlog of e-mails cleared, I hate typing.

big hugs

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 10:54:11 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: 'Twuly'?
Message:
The weird thing about my ex-boss is, she abhors spiritual stuff, and apart from this positive thinking shit is a pragmatic northerner (no illusions), twuly bizarre.

Hi, Ham. Did you really mean to say 'twuly' (pronounce that 'twooly')? Vehwy cwevuh of you, if you did, siwy wabbit!

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:15:15 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Yeah delib, although more Barrymore than Brer,
Message:
Barrymore's a camp Brit tv presenter.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 01:59:26 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: not stronger just work in a university
Message:
It goes with the territory and sometime or another I got tired of constantly being outraged. I used to always be angry.

Now I am passive agrresive at work. Like today, posting here all day instead of working because the new agey types all stick together and send each other to conferences, all week including the Nashville one I volunteered for. Thankfully they decided against me. It's pouring rain here which is wonderful because it's so unique but I don't think I'd like Nashville much.

I'd love to contribute to your newletter. I'm flattered. Keep me posted.
And keep posted regarding Mac stuff. I used to be an Apple support type but went into UNIX in the 90's when Apple got smashed by Bill. But, the NEW OS is Unix behind the scenes so they are giving me a new Mac at work to help the Mac types who don't know how to type in a command :)
So, although I don't know the answer off hand I may be able to help. I know a lot of Mac people at work who can help. Is is just voice recognition you need? I'll ask the multimedia people for suggestions.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 22:31:26 (GMT)
From: The Reader
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: quotes from Guru Maharaji Ji
Message:

From the book The Living Master.

Page 26:

Guru Maharaji Ji, are you permanently in God-consciousness?

Yes, I am permanently in God-consciousness.

Quotes from Guru Maharaji Ji:

Page 34:

Why does Guru Maharaji Ji have to manifest himself in a human life and come into this world, and be here and stay here, and try to guide us? Because there is an incredible necessity of guidance.

Page 37:

It`s been said that Guru Maharaji Ji comes, or God comes into the world, when there is a decline in religion. God comes, Guru Maharaji Ji comes and helps the world.

Page 38:

Knowledge is infinite, and we are finite. So we need a bridge, we need a translator who is infinite and finite at the same time, who can really bring us together. And that is Guru Maharaji Ji.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:09:37 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: The Reader
Subject: quote from Guru Maharaji Ji
Message:
Page 27
Who is Guru Mahraji Ji

Receiving Knowledge
'-Guru Maharaji, are you God?

-No, My Knowledge is God.'

BTW those quote you show, as far as I understand, he describes the role of the living master. At the time he said those things he also said look for the living master. Read also Erics post.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:40:07 (GMT)
From: Moldy-Oldie
Email: None
To: Bjørn-yesterday
Subject: quote from Guru Maharaji Ji
Message:
'Living Master' was written AFTER 'Who is....' So your argument/explanation/self-rationalization (as opposed to self-realization) is moot. Get over it.... M said he was god and he isn't! HE LIED!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 12:47:53 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Yes, and also read Cynthia's post.
Message:
You being so dogmatic, can you tell us why are you so determined on correcting everthing being said. Now let see, that question that you posted was in the early 70's, while Cynthia quoted from around the 80's.

Seeing that you persist in your dogma. Please explain the controversy. Now I do accept the notion that ideas do change and evolve.

Can you say that m has evolved in this instance. From not being a GOD to that of being a GOD. Or is it visaversa or versavica or which versa.

Please put your annswer to everyone so we can all read it. I hope you can elighten us all because I am starting to suspect that the victim is not us but maharaji.

Can you answer this question also.

What do you think it is that made thousands upon thousand walk away from GOD? Yes GOD as he says he is. Do not give us the rap about parables. Please do answer, becuase my ears are about to jump of my head.

Last I like to know what is your position in all this. Are you doing this becuase you can not stand things being put the way we are putting them? Do you have any suggestion so that we can improve in your opinion, or is this some kind of mental desease that you have. I do not no what your stand regarding Maharaji is. Most exes, especially those that have committed themselves to writting their journies have very clearly stated where they stand. Tell us who you really are, what you want and what is your standing. Because it gets tiering have to deal with someone like you.

Am not sure who are, a premie, an ex-premie, a wall sitter or a postie. Who the hell are you.

You complain that exes will beat premies to pulp if they post, well let me tell something, I have not seen any premie that can discuss an issue intelegently, without having to refer it in one way or another to the guru. This act by itself is infuriating an imediatly attract everyone.

So are you going to be the bigot that you are or are you willing to accept that we can hurt as much as anyone else?

Regards

Salam

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 14:07:49 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Yes, I read Cynthia's post. and yours
Message:
1. who I am is none of your business.
2. Your questions are leading.
3. Your questions are aksed and answered. many times.

The truth is a relative thing. What you think will be reflected by what glasses you wear. You used to wear Premie glasses. Now you wear the 'ex-premie glasses'. What about look at things as they are, with no prejustice.

You insult me. You say: 'I have not seen any premie that can discuss an issue intelegently, without having to refer it in one way or another to the guru'. This is a lie.

I am person who hates injustice.

And what do you mean with 'or are you willing to accept that we can hurt as much as anyone else?' Is that a treat?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 17:25:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: What does this mean: 'truth is relative'?
Message:
That makes no sense, Bjorn. Truth by definition is absolute.

Mind you, the new-age world has really done a number on that word. But that's their problem.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:27:17 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Agree Truth is absolute?
Message:
Capital 'T' Truth is what was, is and will be.

truth with small t is not absolute.
Like I say it is nightime. - you say it is daytime. Both are from our perspective telling the truth but we live on differnt side of this globe.

That means little 't' truth is relative, like I think Einstein said; Everything is relative.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 21:32:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: That's just a silly word game (nt)
Message:
ddddd
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 14:55:12 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: I think you have proved the point
Message:
I asked you several question and you did not answer them. Instead you are playing smart ass beating around the bushes.

Well that just goes to show how stupid you and the premies are.

Please do not blame anyone next time when you or any premie post here and 'get abused', becuase you are so ingrosed in the shit that you live in, you can not smell anything else.

Leading questions? I do not think so. They are straight forward questions that do not have ifs and buts in them.

Your are a cowerd hidding behind a mask that you call 25 years of abuse. This is your only escape. I do not feel sorry for you or for injustace. You love coming here with your sick mind so that you can get a kick out of this place because in your real life you can not cope.

And no, I do not give treats.

You are so blind and set in your head, you can not see that what I have asked you is for the benefits of everyone. Instead in your little peanut head you keep playing games. Fine with me, but please stop crying on your spilt milk and asking us to understand. I hate idiot and your are proving to be the next shroom on this forum.

You know why you can not answer? I tell you why. Because you never had to stand up to yourself and question your belives. You know it. So why do not you take your big ass and go cry somewhere else. We ex-premies know what we want and do not need your advice.

Just in case you do not what we want. I remind you, that we want that greazy polished skin Indian guru be brought down, put in the criminal box, sentenced and thrown into prison.

Thank you and fuck off.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:21:30 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: In other words he speaks out of both sides
Message:
of his arse, nothing he says means anything, I even found zen/taoist quotes in his speeches that I'd throw at premies saying this is what he means, and I never had to work too hard at it, when they started having a pop at me for not being 'right-on'.

The guy wouldn't know a truth even if it slapped him one.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:54:31 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: hamzen and all
Subject: he wouldnt know the truth if it slapped him
Message:
thats a richly entertaining thought. I would love to put it to the test.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 08:10:05 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: If the the truth slapped you
Message:
how would you know it? Pleas explain
Always thouth it was the other way around - that truth was slapped by dishonest people.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 08:54:49 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: If the the truth slapped you
Message:
What a fascinating realization you've had, there. all of us here are pissed, precisely because falsehood has slapped our truth in the face. read Michael Dettmer's synopsis, of the treatment of our valid needs vs MJ's , below.
i could respond in multiple ways to this. i could say the truth slapped me-- that I am somebody, but MJ has always treated me like i am nobody.
he has slapped me since day one. I was an abused child of an alcoholic. it ended on the day i stood up and slapped back.i could say that, if i slapped him, it would be to let him know, stingingly and ringingly, that He is no more than I am, is no more than you are, no more than the next person is.He never was and he never will be. He is bound by the same limits, the same mortality, the same need to shit and piss and vomit as any human being on earth. He bleeds when he's cut. He gets sick. He knows misery and jealousy and unhappiness. He doesnt meditate. His name is Sant Ji, but he is no saint. His name is Prem Pal, but he doesnt know what love is.
if he wants jewels, let him go down in the diamond mines of africa with the sweltering black men and dig them out. if he wants airplanes, let him build them himself. if he wants a palace, let him fell the trees, and cut the lumber, and hew the stone, and mine and bake the clay bricks, and mine and forge the steel, etc, and learn all the building trades, and do it by himself. he doesn't seem to understand, that he is no better than anyone else, and that someone, somewhere, did exactly that, for these things to exist in the world.
they did it for themselves, first.
who is he, to demand gratitude and servitude of us?he has no gratitude for anything or anybody.
I'd like to see a darshan line where he was bound, immobile, and every person he ever insulted and took from, could file by, and let him have it with all their might. that would be a darshan line to 'participate' in!
that would be truth, slapping falsehood in the face.
which it always gets to do, in the end.
so-have explained myself clearly? does it all make sense , now?
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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:33:36 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Quite
Message:
A while back while intrigued about his bedroom technique and pecker size, I had one of those little head movies that one does, in between remembering 'zee name' (a real movie that one, in hamburg, with overzealous german premies reminding us to 'remember zee name' while queing for the usual dodgy gruel).

Imagined him unconsciously desperate for some reality. Now we know how desperate he is for blondes, so pictured him lusting after some bimbo, who would only take him on if he became her slave. Very easy to imagine the repressed side of his character (plenty to get on with there) revelling in it. His brain must be aching for some loss of control by now, like those british toffs from the upper classes who absolutely need to be subjugated.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:29:07 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: LOL, best of the day, Ham (nt)
Message:
god that was funny.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 09:23:31 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: If the the truth slapped you
Message:
I did not get it: Sorry.
In my experience truth is relative.
However. Lies are lies. Liers slap lies into the face of truthful people. Truth ussually reveals it self.
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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:41:56 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: or he speaks out of his conviction (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:03:52 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: That's completely illogical Bjorn
Message:
To say on the one hand that he's the incarnation and embodiment of god and only by following his every word and surrendering to him, and that no-one can practice k without regularly seeing him, can you fulfil your destiny and on the other hand that this k is so perfect that you need nothing else, you think that's conviction?

If I say to you in the same speech, that black is the truth, then say that white is the truth, the only conviction that could come out of that is a spell in jail, which is probably his last hope for shattering the mind trap he's caught in. He needs to surrender big time, but then so do all control freaks.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 08:03:41 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: It is completely illogical hamzden
Message:
for a person to stay with his conviction.
Anyway it still sounds and always did sound like the guy believes in his message.
What are his odds?
One to 50 billions?
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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:11:08 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Not at all Bjorn
Message:
Plenty of people are very convincing in their faith, especially so if there's plenty of dosh, drugs, and regular blondes in it for them, ask any pimp or drug dealer.

It's not the conviction that counts, I could even cope with some zennish paradoxes or contradictions, but the guy just says whatever he fancies, even lies, and thinks that lila will always give him a get-out clause.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:02:24 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Fatty has a third mouth. Guess where is it?
Message:
Ah in his ear, no, is his nose, ahh I do not think so . I know in his belly botton. Bah. Oh yes, turn around fatty, I see what, the hell, it is up his ass.
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