Steven Quint -:- Just Sent -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 07:07:32 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- You're far off!! -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 13:32:46 (GMT)

__ __ Bjørn -:- It is not easy to be rich -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:16:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- That's hilarious, you are funnier than anything -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:19:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Wrong Jim, I am more stupid than anything -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 17:24:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Wrong Jim, I am more stupid than anything -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 00:41:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Wrong Jim, I am more stupid than anything -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 03:26:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Bjorn you're missing the key point re gm's quote -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 01:33:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ Gordon Showcase -:- It is not easy to be rich -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:05:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ Way -:- Maharaji, save me -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:34:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Maharaji, save me too I am dying laughing -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 21:00:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Way, you are talking to a shroom -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:57:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Yes, Salam, I know -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:38:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Nice summary of a 'way' to live, Way -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:50:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Your 'Journey' is great news, Carol!!! :-) -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 15:08:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Very nicely put Way -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:57:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Well, Salam, -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:05:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- hi Bjorne, fred on you??..... -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:07:56 (GMT)

__ __ Steven Quint -:- You're far off!! -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 13:45:56 (GMT)

__ Steven Quint -:- Just Sent -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 07:12:25 (GMT)

__ __ Steven Quint -:- Just Sent -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 07:28:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Just Sent -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 07:29:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Just Sent -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:59:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Just Sent -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:45:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Very brave, Steven, and no doubt satisfying, ... -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 12:43:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Very brave, Steven, and no doubt satisfying, ... -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 17:43:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Very brave, Steven, and no doubt satisfying, ... -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 16:11:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Opinions are what we exchange here. -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 16:31:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Uh, Steve... -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 15:46:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Uh, Steve... -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 22:00:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Uh, Steve... -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 16:13:55 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Healing The Mind's Concept Of Itself -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:32:48 (GMT)

__ Steven Quint -:- A Couple More -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:40:07 (GMT)

Bill Burke -:- For Michael Dettmers -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:12:40 (GMT)

__ Carol -:- For Michael Dettmers -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 18:35:33 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Singing The Praises II -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:04:28 (GMT)

__ Steven Quint -:- Singing The Praises II -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 06:22:04 (GMT)

Peter Howie -:- Thanks Mike Dettmers explaining ashram closures -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 04:36:39 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- Thanks Mike Dettmers explaining ashram closures -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 16:41:12 (GMT)

Rob -:- Hanging on to your every word, Michael sir. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:25:24 (GMT)

__ Mili -:- You make your own bed and then you lie in it. (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 09:47:29 (GMT)

__ Carol -:- Hanging on to your every word, Michael sir. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 18:54:46 (GMT)

__ __ Rob -:- Well that's nice Carol. but doesn't help me now -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 03:09:24 (GMT)

la-ex -:- Professor rawat still doesn't get it!!! -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:08:53 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- The antics of a spoiled child.... -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:52:14 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Thanks much, La-Ex -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:44:23 (GMT)

__ __ Buzz -:- Thanks much, La-Ex -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:00:08 (GMT)

__ Rob -:- Professor rawat still doesn't get it!!! -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:43:57 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Hell Hath No Fury Like A Premie Scorned -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:12:49 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- Hell Hath No Fury Like A Premie Scorned -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:32:09 (GMT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- Hell Hath No Fury Like A Premie Scorned -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:49:31 (GMT)

Bidouc -:- Special training -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:04:35 (GMT)

__ buzz -:- Special training -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:03:13 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- yuppie fund-raising -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:58:16 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- Rawat's College of Synchronization -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:03:43 (GMT)

__ __ Steven Quint -:- Rawat's College of Synchronization -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:21:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- Rawat's College of Synchronization -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:33:45 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Special training -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:06:47 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- the cheese story -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:03:50 (GMT)

__ __ Loaf -:- Synchronised swimming -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:08:39 (GMT)

Nigel -:- 'Raped'? Terrible analogy - but interesting... -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 21:34:50 (GMT)

__ shp -:- So Nigel, as I was saying...are you there? -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:33:50 (GMT)

__ shp -:- You are right, there is no real comparison to rape -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:31:09 (GMT)

__ __ Stonor -:- On vacuums ... -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 03:26:14 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- You are right, there is no real comparison to rape -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 06:03:06 (GMT)

__ __ hamzen -:- Another apology, the list gets endless, -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 00:42:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ shp -:- You need to learn how to respond to someone who -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 02:53:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Typical new age psychobabble and no responsibility -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 04:35:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- And since you have the knowledge of all knowledges -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 04:53:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- I can learn some things and so can you, like if -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 14:09:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- The problem is shp that this is a gm based site -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 16:22:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- The problem is shp that this is a gm based site -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 16:44:37 (GMT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- Your pink diaper is showing. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:26:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mr Bubblehead -:- 'Not even a bubble'. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 22:13:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ shp -:- Reference to pink diaper is lost....que es? -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:44:10 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Do you just choose to not understand the world? -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:30:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ Scott T. -:- One Flew over the Plate -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:10:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ shp -:- One Flew over the Plate in you Head -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:22:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- You're clearly deluded. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:33:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- It's rainbow-striped and indigo with sparks too. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:48:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- It's rainbow-striped and indigo with sparks too. -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 03:32:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- It's rainbow-striped and indigo with sparks too. -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 14:42:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- My honest thoughts about you -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 15:58:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- reply to Helen -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 16:36:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- reply to Helen -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 21:06:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- corporate madness is killing our country -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:40:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ shp -:- Tell it to Jim, gerry. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:53:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ shp -:- Take your sarcasm + self-serving self-righteous- -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:40:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I guess that means 'unemployed'? (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:56:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- I guess that means you have no credit with me and -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:04:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I can't see why YOU'd have trouble finding work! -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 20:08:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Who said I'm not working? You are just baiting me -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 03:08:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Class/employment ostracism is right up your alley -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 02:57:12 (GMT)

__ __ shp -:- An awkward and inappropriate attempt to relate.... -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:46:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- shp:You sly and sleek bastered. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:08:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ shp -:- How many times shall I forgive? Seven times a day? -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:20:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- You should thank me shp. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:33:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Yeah, thanks for not putting a stick in my eye. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:51:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- There you go again. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:05:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Anyway, I have a quote for you -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:17:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Yeah I have an idea of what pure religion is. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:25:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Me, no way. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:38:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- So if you can call me 'shippy', I can call you... -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 19:40:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- You missed the 'you' part in my post -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 01:55:23 (GMT)

__ __ gerry -:- Sandy that was great -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:43:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ shp -:- to gerry -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:30:03 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- repost of above -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:51:58 (GMT)

__ ham -:- Yeah indeed Nigel (and an OT urgent request) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 23:14:57 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- You can have the sofa-bed... -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 23:50:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ Loaf -:- Hurrah !!! (NT) -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:10:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- ** final attempted repost of original message ** -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:55:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- ** final attempted repost of original message ** -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 23:25:40 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Singing The Praises -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:06:44 (GMT)

Katie -:- Repost from below -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:03:14 (GMT)

__ Lotus Eater -:- Every breath you take without remembering holy -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 21:30:30 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- holy halitosis! -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 14:12:56 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- All is not lost -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:25:32 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- an enormous guilt trip -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:14:43 (GMT)

Jim -:- FA, I think you have to deal with this (re Brian) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:24:53 (GMT)

__ Roger eDrek -:- Who is Roger eDrek? -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:05:58 (GMT)

__ __ Forum Administrator -:- Who is Roger eDrek? -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 17:12:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Who is Roger eDrek? -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 00:56:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Roger -- you're the man -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 19:06:35 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Roger, one more thing -- re Dettmers -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:27:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I'm bad. I'm really bad. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:48:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's cute -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 04:17:44 (GMT)

__ Forum Administrator -:- Nothing to deal with (yet) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:58:38 (GMT)

__ Katie -:- FA, I think you have to deal with this (re Brian) -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:33:12 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Ask J-M what Katie? -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 07:59:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie -:- Ask J-M what Katie? -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:56:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- It's going to itch!!! -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 17:02:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I hope not! (ot) -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 17:39:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ j of v -:- getting out of the cast (ot) -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 06:30:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- getting out of the cast (ot) -:- Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 08:03:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Bending your ankle? Forget it! -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 20:17:32 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- What's your point, Katie? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:49:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie -:- Point? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:23:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Roger stating his misgivings -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 21:28:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Roger stating his misgivings -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:13:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Katie, I think this is getting worked out.... -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:44:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- a little too satirical for my tastes -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 04:09:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Well, I hope so... -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:08:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- NO -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:25:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- You are very inflexible, Gerry -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 23:02:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You are very inflexible, Gerry -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 23:18:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Concentrating on an irrelevance -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:12:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Irrelevance? -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:31:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Dumb? -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:31:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Flame me and my ancestors. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 04:09:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Flame me and my ancestors. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 04:14:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Have you had your Vitamins Today Jim -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 04:48:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh you mean like Roger did with Joey? -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:27:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- That's your opinion -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:56:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're right about one thing, I guess -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 21:14:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- You're mistaken about a few more things, Jim -:- Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 21:59:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, hon, you're wrong -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:50:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- I know it's a full moon and everything.. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:20:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hey Jim, why so personal re Brian? -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:03:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Joe, I'm stooping low, yes, I know -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:09:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Not Everything is about you, Jim.... -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:16:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Not everything, no -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:16:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- it's not about me this time Jim -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:39:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh yeah? -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:47:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- I agree, Joe.. -:- Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:34:27 (GMT)

Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 07:07:32 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Everyone Subject: Just Sent Message:

October 13, 2000 Subject: Help In Dealing With A Dangerous Cult Leader Dear President Clinton: First I'd like to say that I have been an admirer since 1992. I also encountered you at the entrance to the parking lot at the hilltop restaurant in Vancouver when you were here for the summit. We exchanged waves from a few feet and I got a thrill out of it. To get to the point, I am writing to inform you of a certain citizen of Malibu, California named Prem Pal Singh Rawat, aka Maharaji, aka Guru Maharaj Ji. I believe his address is 31334 Anacapa View Dr, Malibu CA 90265. He was born in India but married a U.S. national and thus became a naturalized citizen. The damage he has wrought since he left India in 1971 as a cult leader has been immeasurable. Apparently some countries are instituting laws against cults, but I am not aware of any in the U.S. His father was a teacher of something called Knowledge and was very much respected. Prem Pal Singh Rawat took over at a young age and continued in his father's footsteps. Unfortunately, he did not have the abilities of his father and had to rely on bullying and lies to attract followers and money. I have heard that he has access to assets worth $16,000,000 under organizations set up by a lawyer in New York named Robert A. Jacobs. Some people have suggested the IRS investigate this situation, and others have suggested that Mr. Jacobs is too clever and if something illegal were found, it would be a 'gimme' or minor matter relative to the whole picture. In an ideal world this person would be considered a criminal for misleading innocent people and causing many suicides, mental breakdowns and severe brainwashing. In my own case, I am only now recovering from schizophrenia after having problems for 21 of the 23 years I was involved with the cult. I always blamed myself because he was sold as 'God' and I bought into it. I managed to become a Chartered Accountant in 1986 despite the aforementioned problems. President Clinton, I am praying that Vice-President Gore wins in November. I wish you and your family all the best in the future. If you or Vice-President Gore could do something about this cult leader who won't let go of his domain a lot of Americans and other people would be extremely appreciative. With Best Regards Steven Elliott Quint

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 13:32:46 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Steven Quint Subject: You're far off!! Message:

malibu residence: 20-25,000,000 G4: 25,000,000 Serenity: 7,000,000 and these are only the most expensive toys !! and don't forget ..... It's not easy to be rich. It isn't. Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.' So, how many do you think he has to 'protect' those 60-70,000,000 ????

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:16:36 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: It is not easy to be rich Message:

This quote of Maharaji is repeated a lot of times. I will bet. none of you who have quoted this message, have never had the experience of being rich. And it is obious that Maharaji says this to make a complaint. Having the first hand experience of making one million, making the next one, and in trying to make four millons ending up finally losing 3 and a half million, I will sign any time this statemnt: 'It's not easy to be rich. It isn't. Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:19:03 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: That's hilarious, you are funnier than anything Message:

Bjorn, You're actually funnier than the couple of fake premies who post here. You know, people like 'Pauline Premie' or 'Tami' or 'Ted Farkel' or even 'Gordon Showcase' here. They're just pretending to be stupid.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 17:24:01 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Jim Subject: Wrong Jim, I am more stupid than anything Message:

I never said I was not stupid. I managed to lose a great deal of money so there you even have the proof. Believe me or not. Anyway, I suppose you dont believe me. Well here is my story. I had a printing business, but found it boring. Gradually I closed it down and made 7 appartments in the building I owned. I live in one of the appartements my self. I purchased another property, developed it and sold it for about 1 mill. $. At that time I could have retired. but thought it would be boring. I made some inventions and even got a price and a scolarship on behalf of the parliament from the governments advisory office for inventors. I started a company and tried to market my product. Two US major TV marketing companies wanted to market my product. I made a deal with one of them. According to their estimates, there would be a sale which would for my company mean a profit of 1 - 3 mill. $. The campagn was a total flop. The product did not sell. I had invested about 1 million of my own money into production and building up the company. At one point I contacted a market maker to evaluate my company as I thought about getting external investors. They talked about a value of 5 to 7 mill. $. To day I suppose the company has almost no value. And my dept has increased. Today, even my wife has to work. End of story so far. I am corresponding with Rob. What I told can be proved. The point is that Maharajis quote,IMHO will make sense for those who have money. I know most people are dreaming to be rich. Money does not make you happy. And it does not make you unhappy. And in his story there is a warning with what might happen if a person get to have some money. There is a message in this quote, so I dont know who is ridiculus. Once when I moved out of the ashram I had nothing. I married to my wife,we rented a flat and I even made some of my own furniture by myself. But we had everything we needed. And I was free and had more 'wordly' joy or fun than i had later when I was pretty wealthy. By saying this, I have realised the most stupid thing I did, was to post here. . I suppose in the periode I spent posting here, was mere boredom as I had to wait for things to happen in my business. And it happened that I had to protect myself and my reputation. This is a part of my journey. I suppose some wisdom finally has come to me and keep me away from this site. So I wish you a nice life. And Salem and Way, the words are 'Fred være med dere!' meaning 'Peace be with you.'

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 00:41:59 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Wrong Jim, I am more stupid than anything Message:

Haven't you blown yourself up yet? What's the problem ? Not sure which end of the match to strike ?

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 03:26:45 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Wrong Jim, I am more stupid than anything Message:

Sorry for not being accomidating. But the fact is you are boared and have no where to go except coming here and badgering the forum with your a sarcastic comments. Go blow the last of your fortune and see how it feels. Fred være med dere

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 01:33:35 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Bjorn you're missing the key point re gm's quote Message:

Surely the way he said it implies he was talking about himself, maybe I need correcting on this, but I'm sure it was in the context of his own experience re $,000,000's. So what about the glory of k and god and all the other bollox? And if he was saying it about others, it's a shame he doesn't walk the walk himself, but then we know he's always been good at talking the talk, but then all travelling salesmen con artists are exactly the same. Premies come here defending gm, when really they're defending themselves from exposure, for being such fools, not gm. As though someone who's bringing peace to the planet, with a hotline to god, if he isn't the exchange itself, could be affected by a bunch of rotting vegetables in their minds. And what about your own experience of the supremest power, so you lost a few millions, so what, you still have k, you should be grateful for the reminder that appreciating life itself through the glory of your master and the gift he gives is what it's all about. But no, you sound just like any other person who had blown it when they thought they were free. My god your wife even has to work, what a hard life you lead. Give us a break, you sound as shallow and unaware of the reality of living that most people lead, as premies generally do, and then 'you' all wonder why you're seen as shallow, self pitying, self centred and arrogant etc when with the wonderful nature of k and gm you should be the coolest and biggest hearted people around. And while I'm at it, with that experience that is so unique, why are premies so self potective about their sensitivity in their relationship with the world, when people without this juju magic just get on with it?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:05:20 (GMT) From: Gordon Showcase Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: It is not easy to be rich Message:

Of course Bjørn, these loosers have no idea of what it means to be rich and successful, like you and me. It takes understanding beyond these small minded people to appreciate what it is to have the first million. Because the first million is nothing, just a stepping stone to greater wealth. You can't do much with a million dollars (or even pounds) these days, especially with the price of oil as it is. I've even had to sell off one of my fleet of luxury cars just as a precaution. These loosers probably drive a ten year old car, if they even have a car, that is. They don't appreciate the finer things in life. They are pig ignorant and belong in the gutter where they already are. By the way, are you going to the next traning program? Anyone who is anyone will be their. Don't miss it!

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:34:25 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Maharaji, save me Message:

Bjorn, Good heavens. Are you on a campaign to discredit yourself completely? Are you a masochist who asks for punishment? This is getting sad, downright sad. One time, in the darshan line, a premie arrived at the feet and prayed directly to the God before him: 'Maharaji, please save me from your premies!' Maharaji got quite a good chuckle from that. I have the same prayer, but Maharaji hasn't answered it yet. If Rawat had the reputation of reading his mail, I would definitely write him a letter and let him know what his premies are saying here. Believe me, Bjorn, you are not doing Maharaji any favors.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 21:00:10 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Way Subject: Maharaji, save me too I am dying laughing Message:

Next time someone complains to me about being broke I'll be sure to tell them how I leanred about how it would be hard to be rich. I can't help myself - These should be saved somewhere.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:57:13 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Way Subject: Way, you are talking to a shroom Message:

Why waste your time? The guy obviously has something wroung with him, but he persists in his little antics. Eventuall he is going to hit a brick wall. He also think himself special, you know, knowing Susan, Mike,having money and a little pond in his backyard to role in like a happy pig. Personally I think he is a dickhead.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:38:31 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Salam Subject: Yes, Salam, I know Message:

Salam, I agree that there is something wrong with Bjorn, and it is the same thing that is wrong with Shroom, and shp and dep dog and Q and Eric and all the rest of the premies who struggle with exes, trying to satsang us back into the fold and thereby strengthen their own faultering connection to it. But the fact is, I feel for them. And another fact is we are all in the same boat. Not Guru Maharaj Ji's boat, but life's boat. Mr. Rawat takes the truths about being in life's boat and paints pictures with himself at the helm, pretty but make-believe pictures. I'm trying to make these guys realize that: Yes, breath is precious, Yes, truth is what it is regardless of our conceptions, Yes, we must learn how to surrender our finiteness because it is a part of our nature to want that freedom from our own self and to experience the underlying unity of the life that we are a part of, but NO, that unity is not Mr. Rawat's to provide us. The gift of fulfillment is not his to give, anymore than the gift of life is his to give. Premies are no different than any other religious person who attempts to paint the truth in a way that he can relate to. That is natural and there is a help to that, but we have to be careful that we don't paint the truth for ourselves in a way that is so off the mark that we miss the unity we seek. The unity is here, and now, and present, and powerful, and real, and ready, and most of all it is possible. It is possible for us to relate to that unity, to turn our attention to that unity, to honor it, to feel it, to express it. Even Prem Pal Singh Rawat can feel it and express it, but he can't own it, and he can't limit it, because that is quite impossible for any human being. While we are here, together and separate for a small time, we struggle with each other. And so I struggle. Bjorn struggles. It is our nature, yes?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:50:25 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Way Subject: Nice summary of a 'way' to live, Way Message:

I appreciate your compassionate wisdom as well. Carol PS I was actually away from here for about 3 weeks without even looking! I have just submitted a newer version of my 'Journey', if it went through.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 15:08:26 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Carol Subject: Your 'Journey' is great news, Carol!!! :-) Message:

Hi Carol! I'm also looking forward to 'hearing/reading' about the next leg of your 'Journey'. It seems to me that you have kept the best part of your 'm-journey' - the wholeness of yourself with 'Whatever-It-Is'. In another thread you wrote so beautifully, 'It is a wonder of life that life always seeks wholeness and health and I have come around to the experience of my self as a whole under 'my own power'. We are meant to operate in these bodies using and directing our life energy as our own...and hopefully for the greater good as well as our own.' From what I've learned about you, you seem to have always excelled at directing your life energy for the greater good! The cooking and freezing is almost finished, and the weather's good, so I have to get outside again today to continue getting the garden ready for the winter, and next spring! I'll talk to you more some rainy day soon. Love, Stonor

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:57:34 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Way Subject: Very nicely put Way Message:

I like the way you say it. But do you think they hear that? Bjorne is too dense and afraid to open up and say what he really wants. I do not think that is correct. The fact that he was flammed by gerry does not mean a thing to me. What he said about himself and the way he was treated probably scared him off. Well what can I say. I tried to ask him some question ealier but he swiched back to his original programming. I guess it is hard to come to the conclusion that, yes it is possible to be alive, happy and fulfilled without maharaji. Because once you do you are not a premie anymore. But that is life, diverse.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:05:53 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Salam Subject: Well, Salam, Message:

Salam, I don't know if Bjorn hears. There is a language barrier, and then there are those thumbs in his ears. I once asked Bjorn how to say 'peace' in Norwegian. He never answered me. So I looked it up. It's: 'fred'!!!!

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:07:56 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Way Subject: hi Bjorne, fred on you??..... Message:

hahaha

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 13:45:56 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Jean-Michel Subject: You're far off!! Message:

Thanks for the info. You know where to send it, though. Steve

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 07:12:25 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Steven Quint Subject: Just Sent Message:

Have A Go

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 07:28:04 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Steven Quint Subject: Just Sent Message:

Dear Vice-President Gore: I am happy to say that I also had a close encounter with you similar to the one mentioned below. This is an email that I just sent. You are obviously extremely busy now but I feel that this matter is of the utmost urgency. May you be victorious in November. All The Best Steven Elliott Quint Dear President Clinton: First I'd like to say that I have been an admirer since 1992. I also encountered you at the entrance to the parking lot at the hilltop restaurant in Vancouver when you were here for the summit. We exchanged waves from a few feet and I got a thrill out of it. To get to the point, I am writing to inform you of a certain citizen of Malibu, California named Prem Pal Singh Rawat, aka Maharaji, aka Guru Maharaj Ji. I believe his address is 31334 Anacapa View Dr, Malibu CA 90265. He was born in India but married a U.S. national and thus became a naturalized citizen. The damage he has wrought since he left India in 1971 as a cult leader has been immeasurable. Apparently some countries are instituting laws against cults, but I am not aware of any in the U.S. His father was a teacher of something called Knowledge and was very much respected. Prem Pal Singh Rawat took over at a young age and continued in his father's footsteps. Unfortunately, he did not have the abilities of his father and had to rely on bullying and lies to attract followers and money. I have heard that he has access to assets worth $16,000,000 under organizations set up by a lawyer in New York named Robert A. Jacobs. Some people have suggested the IRS investigate this situation, and others have suggested that Mr. Jacobs is too clever and if something illegal were found, it would be a 'gimme' or minor matter relative to the whole picture. In an ideal world this person would be considered a criminal for misleading innocent people and causing many suicides, mental breakdowns and severe brainwashing. In my own case, I am only now recovering from schizophrenia after having problems for 21 of the 23 years I was involved with the cult. I always blamed myself because he was sold as 'God' and I bought into it. I managed to become a Chartered Accountant in 1986 despite the aforementioned problems. President Clinton, I am praying that Vice-President Gore wins in November. I wish you and your family all the best in the future. If you or Vice-President Gore could do something about this cult leader who won't let go of his domain a lot of Americans and other people would be extremely appreciative. With Best Regards Steven Elliott Quint

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 07:29:57 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Everyone Subject: Just Sent Message:

Have Another Go

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:59:12 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Everyone Subject: Just Sent Message:

Similar copies to The First Lady and Mrs. Gore. You never now, it's not unlikely that within the vast circles of theses four people and their aides, there is knowledge of one or more friends or family members who were damaged by our Fearful Leader. Steve

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:45:21 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Everyone Subject: Just Sent Message:

For the record, here is the text of the latter two emails mentioned above. Dear Madam First Lady: The following is an email sent this morning: Text of message to President Clinton I wish you all the best, Madam First Lady, in the upcoming election. I hope there is something you can do about this matter. With Greatest Respect, Steven Elliott Quint Dear Madam Vice-President: I sent the following email this morning: Text of message to Vice-President Gore I have sent a similar email to the first lady. I pray that one or more of the recipients can do something about this cult leader who has done incredible damage in my and other people's lives. With Best Regards, Steven Elliott Quint

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 12:43:23 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Steven Quint Subject: Very brave, Steven, and no doubt satisfying, ... Message:

... but all these people can do is to direct you to the relevant agencies that are meant to deal with your concerns. And don't be too surprised if one of those agencies involves men in white coats. (No kidding, Steve, it can and DOES happen - I know from experience.) Your aim might be to draw attention to the Maha, but you only end up drawing attention to yourself, and for all the wrong reasons. Can I suggest that you'd be better off mailing the IRS or Charity Commission in the hope of getting them to investigate why the Maha and EV has tax-free and 'church' status? Good luck. Chris

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 17:43:48 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Chris Subject: Very brave, Steven, and no doubt satisfying, ... Message:

Why don't you take the recommended measures instead of complaining to me. Sorry if I was harsh in the adjacent response.

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 16:11:08 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Chris Subject: Very brave, Steven, and no doubt satisfying, ... Message:

Who asked for your opinion?

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 16:31:48 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Steven Quint Subject: Opinions are what we exchange here. Message:

... and posting on a public chat forum is kinda inviting comment, don't you think? Asked for, or unasked for, it was not maliciously intended. Quite the opposite. I'm sure you'll see that.

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 15:46:14 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Steve Subject: Uh, Steve... Message:

Do you think Al Gore will be pleased to be called 'Madam Vice President?' I know he's really into makeup but...? Maybe you know something we all should know...hehehehh

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 22:00:19 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: gerry Subject: Uh, Steve... Message:

Sorry if I was too serious in the adjacent message. I guess I need to loosen up a bit. Steve

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 16:13:55 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Gerry Subject: Uh, Steve... Message:

What the hell are you talking about?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:32:48 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Everyone Subject: Healing The Mind's Concept Of Itself Message:

I find this dictionary entry helpful in healing some of the damage done by The Perfect Monster. Try this one too. Steve

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:40:07 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Everyone Subject: A Couple More Message:

Try Perfect Monster.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:12:40 (GMT) From: Bill Burke Email: None To: Everyone Subject: For Michael Dettmers Message:

Greetings Michael, I do appreciate the 'about responsibility' post. I would like to give you some feedback on a couple issues. I guess you are out of touch with him because what you correctly forecast, that he will pay a 'serious price for an unexamined life' did in fact already occur in a major way. His mom died in the early nineties after he shunned her for about 18 years. Someone claimed on the forum that 'she had been invited to the indian ashram festival site more than once but didnt come.' So maybe he made SOME approach to her at some point. But whatever diplomatic communications might have crossed opposing camps, she died and he had not resolved the mother/son dilemma in his life. I was watching all the videos during that era and I also had a couple grapevine sources. He went to india to burn the body and there he saw his brothers. Bhole(ji) came up to m and cried. M did not. He along with his brothers brought the fire to start the funeral pyre. No word on any commmunication with 'eldest' bro. On the flight home with Raja(ji?), M asked raja a line that he was mentioning in his satsangs recently (at that time). He asked him 'If you died would you leave saying 'thank you''. Raja blasted him. M was startled by Raja's response. It hit him hard. No word on what raja's comments were. This was confirmed by Charanand. The videos from that point on were fascinating to me. I really was hanging on every word looking for the sentences that were few and far between but WERE THERE that revealed his state of mind on the issue of his mom and the devastation that it wrecked on his whole mindset. I would talk to other premies about all of it as it unfolded for the next few years but no one I knew was at all following his midlife crisis. It is one oclock and I have a 3 day scout trip with the two youngest tomorrow morning. On sunday or monday night I will continue the midlife crisis report and the other issue your post started.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 18:35:33 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Bill Burke Subject: For Michael Dettmers Message:

Bill, Hope the scout trip was rewarding! If you sort of remember me from awhile back posting a few times to you, I remember 'you' from posts. On family: I have a new grand daughter, Rose, born 10 11 01 (cool pattern, huh?!) I just read Sir Dave's site with Michael D's stuff, and this: >Looking back at the time I spent with Maharaji, I can see that he never allowed whatever doubts he may have had about his identity, to control him or prevent him from expecting to receive whatever he wanted. And he perpetuated (through his own ignorance of any other explanation) the myth that it was by his “grace” that his wishes became our command. In other words, we bought into a particular “interpretation” of who he was and how his power worked. Unfortunately, that particular interpretation had the insidious consequence of keeping us enslaved in the belief that he was all worthy and powerful and we were nothing by dirt at his divine lotus feet. In that interpretation there is only one big winner and everyone else is a loser. Now, I suggest that there isanother“interpretation” about our ability to manifest what we desire that is far more empowering if we are willing to pay the price, and one that does not necessitate that we surrender to anyone. The price is that we are willing to take the time to examine and overcome the doubts and fears that keep us from realizing our full potential. In this regard, Maharaji had a distinct advantage in that, from the moment he was born, he was indoctrinated into an absolute belief system and an identity, reinforced by his father as a living role model.< ..this...is exactly what I believe about why M is the way he is and why I believed in him (and not myself!) He was so sure of himself (from only 8 years old!) and so full of his own power and so clear about his direction, and it seemed so pure to me at the time and for many years. That way of being is very charismatic especially to a person (me) who felt powerless to start! Add to that the reinforcers we got from the Indian theology to surrender yourself, and add to that my own experience one month after getting K and buying into all of this, of being raped by my own brother, and my feelings of powerlessness and separation of body and mind and spirit were supremely reinforced. (And don't worry shp, I am not offended by the appropriate use of the word 'rape' as a metaphor. As in : The forests of the world and my own neighborhood, are being raped by the industries that profit from supplying the consumer's unquenchable thirst for more paper and more wood or more property to build the big houses on! I am guilty of the consumption as much as any of us, but I feel a responsibility to try to recycle and to protect the forests.) It is a wonder of life that life always seeks wholeness and health and I have come around to the experience of my self as a whole under 'my own power'. We are meant to operate in these bodies using and directing our life energy as our own...and hopefully for the greater good as well as our own. I'd like to send this to my old premie friends who still hold tight to their connection to M, but I don't want to be confrontational or take more risks with the tentative relationship that remains between us. But...if they read it here.....OK! (I love you Doug and Andrew and Stan and Jim D.!) And an big 'Hi' to Katie, Selene, Robyn, Scott, Michael (several), Dave, Oliver, and many more. Love Carol

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:04:28 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Everyone Subject: Singing The Praises II Message:

Try singing this to the tune of Arti

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 06:22:04 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Everyone Subject: Singing The Praises II Message:

The links are good too. I especially like 499. Steve

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 04:36:39 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Thanks Mike Dettmers explaining ashram closures Message:

Warning - Sarcasm following mixed in with real comment - for those who can't tell the difference. I had forgotten how it was that I and others really saw our way around MJ having so many goodies. Your comments Mike about how MJ saw the closure reminded me of how Imsaw it, and god damn it, it makes sense from his point of view how he treated me and others. I will now relax in whatever minimal expectation I ever had about him apologising or feeling apologetic or the least bit sorry for any of the ashram endings. It was after all him doing me a favour by letting me interact with him in this manner at all. He is the one doing the favour by accepting all the 'worldly goods' and letting me and others play and join his 'lila'. It is after all to my benefit to be able to buy/support the purchase of/work myself to death in his name. With regards the ashram, of course it was me that failed him. Silly me. After all - service, and all that it entailed - $ and effort etc - were only there because the lord, in his infinite patience, took mercy on poor old worthless me and allowed me to find some speck of a way to connect with him. Without his infinite compassion I would, after all, have been spinning through the cosmos of maya for all eternity or at least a good bit of it. I really had forgotten. Man that is a real doozy. It is actually a wonder that he didn't o an angry number when the ashrams closed. There was me hoping, waiting, wishing for a few words of consolation 'Yeah you did OK but I've moved on and so has the world etc etc' and he was possibly restraining himself from saying things like 'You call that devotion - you failed me - rot in hell'. So I guess all things considered I am appreciative that for whatever reason he didn't say too much like that - because I was in a very vulnerable state during those days. Just to clarify - I'm not appreciative of HIM not saying it - I'm more appreciative of life in general that for whatever reason he didn't say it and I didn't have to deal with more anger and hurt than I already had. Cheers Peter Howie

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 16:41:12 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: Thanks Mike Dettmers explaining ashram closures Message:

Great post, Peter. I got your meaning loud and clear. It's a little like coping with the loss of realizing a lousy parent was totally incapable of being a better parent. It just was what it was. And it's painful letting go of the dream that they were capable of loving you in the way you wanted, needed to be loved. The truth hurts.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:25:24 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Hanging on to your every word, Michael sir. Message:

I realize that some of your may characterize this as New Age bullshit (Jim and Rob, are you reading this?) - Michael Dettmers Gee, well gosh I'm flattered you actually read my posts. I'm, flummoxed. Time was when any comment I happened to make within earshot would have been met with a dismissive, almost pitying glance from the great Michael Dettmers. Forgive me if I act a tad cynical toward your quasi-metaphysical psychobabble. Sounds very Andy Robbins-meets-Benny Hinn, but who am I to judge - I followed an messianic high-school dropout for 25 years and came to believe all my problems stemmed from lack of devotion to the Living Lord. But hey, a man's got to make a living somehow and like you said, there you were in your fifties having to reinvent your career and somehow turn a profit from all those years of espousing spiritual jambalaya ( a dash of Kabir, little bit of Rumi, add Richard Bach to taste etc etc). I listened to you many times, reinforcing your former Master's message. Like many thousands of others, up there in the cheap seats, I assumed that your proximity to the Lord afforded you a clarity and insight we could only aspire to. Now, reading a precis of your current ideology on your website, I get this uneasy feeling that, no matter how workable it sounds, I just couldn't let myself buy into it. Same salesman, different product. Perhaps you could write a book for us - 'How to Succeed in Life after Giving It Away to a Fat Indian for 25 Years' - offer it to ex-premies at cost. Could do wonders to wipe away some of that karma, or is that not part of this year's philosophy? Don't worry about replying Michael, I'm nobody after all, right?

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 09:47:29 (GMT) From: Mili Email: None To: Rob Subject: You make your own bed and then you lie in it. (nt) Message:

You're a loser.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 18:54:46 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Rob Subject: Hanging on to your every word, Michael sir. Message:

No mean to offend, but I think you miss the point. It has to do with what we thought of ourselves or were willing to diminish in ourselves in relation to what M thought of himself and we believed about him. We clearly became subservient to him as devotee to 'lord'. At some time we were acutely aware of the choice to do that. We tackled our 'minds' and our self-will to make ourselves more devoted. We argued with our more wordly friends and families. We had to have been vulnerable due to our intrinsic lack of self-value at some level due to whatever circumstances and experiences the life had presented to us so far. Changing perspective and our beliefs about our inate right to own our own lives and direct our own play is what gives people the energy and success of their endeavors. I think of it as a 'scientific belief' about how a person's given life energy really works in the world. Every successful endeavor (whatever it is) starts with thought and belief that it can work. M was just very good at doing that and was able to get a lot of reinforcement from people who gave over their will to him, and thier energy (work), love and money (money is just another form of energy).

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 03:09:24 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Carol Subject: Well that's nice Carol. but doesn't help me now Message:

As a recovering cultaholic, who spent a quarter century forcing myself to 'trust', 'let go' and other variations on the theme of generally taking a back seat in my own life, I'm finding it hard to re-adjust and take charge of my own destiny again. It's going from one extreme to the other, too quickly and with no guidance. Maybe Michael's material is actually good stuff, but I'm afraid my ability to take another teacher on board has been severely compromised. Can you see what I'm getting at? Maharaji writes stuff like 'everything you need is within you, surrender yourself to me etc etc' and it never worked, was never intended to. Michael, and perhaps yourself, say 'everything you need can be created from your own determination (OK paraphrasing but...), trust in yourself etc etc'. Two completely opposite philosophies, perhaps, yet somehow the same in that they are just words. All it would take would be for you to say 'you have to give THIS method a chance, you have to make an effort' and I'm back where I started. Does that make sense?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:08:53 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Professor rawat still doesn't get it!!! Message:

A friend of mine just went to australia to participate in a training with m.It was a group of about 500 who paid probably 3-5,000 each for the privilege of getting trained by an instructor and a few appearances by the master.He told me a lot of details that don't matter and was actually quite chatty,until I asked him how much it cost.I said it probably cost you 3-5,000,right?(this does not include travel,which was free,due to frequent flier miles) He stammered, and then said, yeah it was on the high end of that.He wouldn't comment further,although I know there were some trainings with m that cost 5,000 earlier. He asked me to watch part of a new video that had excerpts from some of these trainings,because m was so 'clear' and 'powerful'.I watched most of it.It was basically a lot of nothing,except for a few common sense points that I have been feeling for decades...it was nice to see that m has finally decided to use a little common sense. BUT,the one point that he made that I thought was interesting was this:in an obvious reference to this site, m said that he has found himself having to defend himself from people who are attacking him with stuff that was said about him almost 30 years ago. This time he blamed it on the Indian mahatmas.He went into his usual litany of silly references like...no,i don't speak 48 languages,no, i don't walk on water,no i can't disappear... He said that it was PATHETIC that he had to even think about defending things like this that were said by the concept crazed indian mahatmas 30 years ago. Never once did he take any personal responsibility for the fact that HE said these things,many of which are on this site. Thank god that premies saved lots of this stuff before the 'ashram purge' where the old literature was taken away. What struck me as being so odd was that he never once even hinted at the fact that HE was the one spreading the divine concepts about himself and knowledge. It was also odd that my friend couldn't relate to my pointing that out.It was as if I was from another planet or something. One thing I did agree with:m said that propagation in the US was going down big time...he made a gesture with his hand that imitated a plane going down,down,down into the ocean...with that I said thank you and turned the video off...at least we agree on one thing!

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:52:14 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: la-ex Subject: The antics of a spoiled child.... Message:

Thanks, LA-Ex. Maharaji is so infantile. I remember one time taking care of a couple of little kids. The little boy was about 3 and he wet his pants. When I asked him if he had wet his pants, he said no, he hadn't, that his sister Mary Ellen had done it. This is the kind of mentality that the great 'master' has. In his demented world, everything good he gets credit for, but everything bad is somebody else's fault. You say he said in the video that he 'has found himself having to defend himself about things that were said 30 years ago.' Well, I haven't seen him do it yet. When does he start?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:44:23 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Thanks much, La-Ex Message:

I'm surprised that the Hamster isn't taking any responsibility for his own disastrous campaign to save the world. I thought he was more of a stand-up guy than that. Hm.... 500 x 5,000 Wow!

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:00:08 (GMT) From: Buzz Email: None To: Jim Subject: Thanks much, La-Ex Message:

Come on Jim,you know HE is not responsible for anything he says.It must of been all those crazy mahatmas that forced him to say all that. SO that must make him a puppet,or is that a muppet?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:43:57 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Professor rawat still doesn't get it!!! Message:

Hey la-ex Think its just me and you here right now. Any chance of getting hold of a copy of that video? Maybe you could borrow it again - tell your friend you 'felt' something and want to watch it all - then dupe it and mail it out to ex's you know here. His comments tie in very well with what Michael Dettmers was saying earlier, about maharaji's opinion of ashram premies, and premies in general. He really is convinced that he is the Perfect Master, entitled to all boons and priveleges of the rank, and we are just the stupid ungrateful slobs who can't see that. Time to air out the padded cell, you know, the one next to the 3 Napoleons and the 14 Jesus Christs.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:12:49 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Everyone Subject: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Premie Scorned Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:32:09 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Steven Quint Subject: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Premie Scorned Message:

Premie Power

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:49:31 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Everyone Subject: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Premie Scorned Message:

For those that may have missed it Breakfast Time

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:04:35 (GMT) From: Bidouc Email: bidouc-fr@yahoo.fr To: Everyone Subject: Special training Message:

Hi guys I'm Bidouc from France. I just wanted to be sure that everybody is aware of trainings that rawat organises. You will find below the full form to attend this kind of ritual. The texte is a little long but very expressive. If anybody has the gentleness to translate it in french and the good idea to post it on the french forum, he will be warmly welcome. Salut ---------------------------------------- Dear inquirer, Thank you for your recent interest in attending a training session. Currently many new opportunities are opening up to help M in his efforts to make Knowledge available to people all around the world. This will require a qualitative leap in the way we work together. In the future, people will be invited to attend training sessions that focus on how to work together in synchronization as a highly functional team. If you are interested in participating and you have time, whether it's two hours a month or two hundred – we invite you to complete the 'Participation Questionnaire” and “Strength, Attitudes, & Predisposition Survey”, and to send them to us, along with a digitized photograph, in the manner described below.* Please attach your completed forms and photo to a First Class message addressed to Eur.Participation Questionnaires If you need technical help submitting the questionnaire, call the FC manager of your country. The dates of training sessions have not yet been determined. Once dates have been decided and potential participants selected, you will be contacted. Best regards, The Training Team ==================== STRENGTHS, ATTITUDES, & PREDISPOSITION SURVEY Name: _______________________________________________ Please circle the one number in each row that most closely represents how you see yourself. In a case where you believe you're right in the middle of the two ends of the spectrum described, circle the number 0. Example: On the first line, if you feel your skills are entirely in management rather than task-related, you would circle the 4 close to the 'Management skills' label; if you feel your skills are mostly in management, you would circle the 3, and so on. If your skills are entirely task-related, you circle the 4 close to the “Task skills” label; if your skills are equally divided between the two, then circle the 0. Management skills Task skills 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 Risk taking Conservative / Cautious 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 Objective / rational skills Communicator / Interpersonal Skills 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 Specific competency Wanting to do whatever is available 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 Interested in plugging in Already plugged in 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 Skilled in assessing other people’s contribution Skilled in assessing personal contribution 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 Confident of adding specific value Willing to do whatever to add value 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 Leader Team player 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 ============================== Participation Questionnaire If you have experience in inserting a picture in Word, please enter your scanned picture in this space. Otherwise attach your photograph as a separate file following the instructions in the cover letter. Name Address City State/ Province Zip/Postal Code Country e-mail Phone Fax Age Received Knowledge (year) Received from Maharaji Yes No Current Participation Activities: Highlights of your other participation activities in the last few years: References – Please list three or more people (names and phone numbers) you’ve worked with on local or national events or projects during the last three to five years: Please indicate the number of events you have attended in the last 3 years at which M. spoke in person: Educational Background: Skills and/or Technical Qualifications: Work Experience: Year Position Employer Year Position Employer Year Position Employer Other Your personal strength(s): Your area(s) of challenge, if any: Looking at all your skills & abilities, how would you like to help? Please rank your top 3 choices: What is your availability? (hours per week, per month or sporadically during the year): If a weeklong training were to happen, would you be interested? Yes No What would be a comfortable advance notice? The cost for lodging, meals and the training facilities will probably be between USD 200.00 to USD 350.00 per day for a minimum of 6 days, plus any airfare and transport costs. Would this prevent you from participating? Yes No Why do you want to attend a training? What would you most like to learn from attending a training? Please be specific. What are some of your hobbies/interests? Is there anything else you would like to add? Please enclose a resume or Curriculum Vitae. Fundación Elan Vital has created a personal data filing system with the sole intention of facilitating guests to attend training sessions. Please note that once your personal data have been introduced in the data filing system, you will always be able to rectify, erase or block your data or request through a letter addressed to Fundación Elan Vital, Apartado Postal nº 2550, 28080 Madrid (Spain), any information concerning your pesonal data. In application of the regulations in force concerning the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and the transfer of such data,I AUTHORIZE Fundación Elan Vital with domicile in Madrid (Spain), C/ Corazón de María nº 70, for the processing of my personal data through its filing system and for transferring such data to other organizations with similar aims to those from the above mentioned organization.' Signed: Date: Print Name:

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:03:13 (GMT) From: buzz Email: None To: Bidouc Subject: Special training Message:

What a pile of shit!!

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:58:16 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Bidouc Subject: yuppie fund-raising Message:

Very sad. Now only computer-literate (read: well-off) premies need apply to be close to the lotus feet. Thanks for the post, Biduoc.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:03:43 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Bidouc Subject: Rawat's College of Synchronization Message:

Offering certification in team building and professional money laundering. Please notice that we do not have a money back guarentee. What do you think Sir David, it is another money raising scheme . I say someone go for it and tell us what's up.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:21:51 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Salam Subject: Rawat's College of Synchronization Message:

I'm pissed off that for all the time and effort that I put into knowledge I didn't even get the money laundering seminar thrown in.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:33:45 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Steven Quint Subject: Rawat's College of Synchronization Message:

You did not lick ass long enough.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:06:47 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Bidouc Subject: Special training Message:

Where would my cheese guarding skills fall in these catagories? But this bit is very illuminating/worrying even: 'The cost for lodging, meals and the training facilities will probably be between USD 200.00 to USD 350.00 per day for a minimum of 6 days, plus any airfare and transport costs. Would this prevent you from participating? Yes No Is this a new way for Rawat to try to get more money out of premies? Get them to pay extortionate amounts of money to do nothing in particular in a synchronised way? God, why didn't I think of this one. Why do you want to attend a training? Isn't that obvious? I'm a complete mug.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 05:03:50 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: the cheese story Message:

I'll never forget it. I read it right after leaving M, you posted it to me. I think it should be reposted it is so great and yes it does indeed entitle you to the special training. But what the h are they getting trained FOR? Isn't knowledge enough these days?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:08:39 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Synchronised swimming Message:

I have just reakised what all the feel good smiling is about.... where do I sign, do i have to supply my own nose clip and is it OK to wear protective goggles ? just call me Bubbles.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 21:34:50 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 'Raped'? Terrible analogy - but interesting... Message:

Lower down a visiting premie typed as follows: I know what rape feels like. I got it from corporate America, a few very abusive employers and some Federal goverment hacks. Same feeling. God - the sheer bloody insensitivity, stupidity, bad spelling and and - well - let's say it was hard stifling the belly-laugh. And rape is not remotely funny - I just mean the idea you can discover how rape, or the after-effects - feel after you've been kept waiting or pushed around by government bureaucrats, or were once paid peanuts to shovel shit. (And which among us has never been? - having formerly had the sorts of job premies were fit for, the ones you could leave at the drop of a hat to get to the next festival ) I know there are a few forum posters who have been raped in real life. I admire the way they buttoned their lips at the dumbness of this premie's post. Were they rendered speechless..? Perhaps they missed it. I hope so. But the analogy raises interesting questions when you bear in mind the same premie just this week played the question of 'free-will' as Fatwat's trump card, as in: at no point were we forced to remain loyal, we were always free to leave, we all had free will so you can't blame Maharaji for blitzing your brain cells, corrupting your innocence or anything else. Ok, so let's talk about rape and free-will. Or corporate America and free-will. Or Maharaji and free-will, and see where it goes First, a rapist never needs to use violence. Fear of consequences will suffice and is usually preferred over violence. For one thing, it leaves no visible scars so the rapist can plead 'consent' on the part of the victim later on. You could, of course, argue that the victim might apply free-will to refuse consent and face whatever consequences. Of course they could. Yeah, who wouldn't? And corporate America? Nobody is forced to work for a bad employer, since we have free-will. Ok, there may be undesirable consequences in being homeless and hungry, but the choice is still yours, so you can't blame anybody but yourself if you are treated like shit by your boss. Just as the mouse is free to hunt the cat And nobody has to pay taxes or abide by the law, do they? After all, we are free to choose jail. And the cult? Yes - as this premie insists - we were always free to just walk any time we liked. But, again, the consequences were not nice - or so we were constantly reminded. Shall I count the ways? Turning your back on the only opportunity you will get in a thousand lifetimes to know God.. Smashing into a thousand pieces Turning into rotting vegetables inside Going to Hell (yes, Maharaji did threaten this one during his notorious 'Christmas Satsang' of 1979.) And other variants of these cruel promises were propagated by iniatiators throughout my time in the cult. I was there. I listened to Maharaji making his threats (live and on video) and his drones carrying the spirit of his message to the wider world. I remember Pete Dawson telling aspirants 'I would rather be on a space rocket heading out of control towards the sun than receive Knowledge before I was ready.' And Jeez, what could these warnings mean? What unseen powers of darkness might we be dealing with here. What do M's 'rotting vegetables' or 'smashing into a thousand pieces' refer to? - Nervous breakdown? Psychosis? What..?!! What does 'Hell' mean? - Everlasting torment, perhaps What else could it mean? Stick and carrot all the way, with plenty of stick - and carrot just round the corner. But the scars are invisible so this premie (on Maharaji's behalf) can now plead 'consent' on our part. Neat analogy SHP. Well said, indeed.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:33:50 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Nigel Subject: So Nigel, as I was saying...are you there? Message:

As is the case in many cases One person posts And another erases Any semblance of the original thought Over senseless battles Verbally fought. You got to me I have admitted Without integrity forfeited Yet I'm surrounded on every border Even when I seek to order My words to be more on the money In the big picture this is really funny. So Nigel, I'm busted man. Thanks again. I will think twice before making any further comparsions. shp

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:31:09 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Nigel Subject: You are right, there is no real comparison to rape Message:

Nigel, I stand so totally corrected on the count of comparing rape to anything else of a violating nature. You are totally right on that, Nigel. I sincerely apologize to anyone who was negatively affected, for making such an insensitive and inaccurate comparison. This was my doing, not anyone else's. And I take responsibility for my less than thoughtful words. I see corporate America as you see EV and Maharaji. But with regard to corporate America, we were born into it, with little hope of breaking free of the national mind control going on. By some good fortune, some of us saw through the illusion of this whole materialistic, externally-based, special-interest-group controlled culture to realize there was something more. That's the vaccuum Maharaji and others filled in America, providing a sense and purpose of why one is alive more than getting a degree, a job, 2.4 kids, a dog and a split level. And you could go to the mall every weekend and buy whatever you want. And that was Life, the American Dream. You can participate as long as you hold the same world view as the dominant social order. Otherwise, you will be ostracized and shunned, tagged by the media and local folks who know you and other mind cotnrol organizations as a wacko and not to be trusted. Look what is happening to Ralph Nader, and consequently all Americans who think we have a free and open system here. Nader, Princeton '55, Harvard Law '58, saved millions of lives through his efforts to have seatbelts become mandatory, sued GM to get the 'unsafe at any speed' Corvair off the road, sued corporations to gain environmental equity, wrote many books, a brilliant man and a dedicated public servant even though he has not held an elected position. Not only are they not letting him into the debates, but they denied him entrance into an overflow room with a TV at the Boston debates. And he was holding a legitimate ticket. Security and troopers blocked his way, not only into the debates, but also blocked his way to the Fox news media trailer where he had been invited to come by the president of the network. To top it off, this information is not even being aired at this time by anyone except the victims and few fair witnesses. Feeling politically violated and socially oppressed is not the same as rape, Nigel. As I said, I stand corrected. When something becomes as obvious to me as your post illustrated, I am not above or immune to changing for the better. Thank you. shp

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 03:26:14 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: shp Subject: On vacuums ... Message:

Yes Sanford, 'Living in a vacuum sucks,' as Adrienne E. Gusoff wrote. You wrote, 'That's the vaccuum Maharaji and others filled in America, providing a sense and purpose of why one is alive more than getting a degree, a job, 2.4 kids, a dog and a split level. And you could go to the mall every weekend and buy whatever you want.' Dr. Hendrik B. G. Casimir, theorist in study of quantum mechanics predicted one of the strangest effects of quantum mechanics - that even the seeming emptiness of a vacuum can generate electromagnetic forces to pull two objects towards each other. The force, known as the Casimir Effect was published in 1948 and was regarded as a theoretical curiosity, but was verified in 1996. He died on May 4, but it was only reported today in The Montreal Gazette. What does m have to do with 'Whatever-It-Is'? I didn't need m (or Casimir or those who proved his theorem) to know that there is 'Whatever-It-Is'. Stonor

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 06:03:06 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: shp Subject: You are right, there is no real comparison to rape Message:

That's the vaccuum Maharaji and others filled in America, providing a sense and purpose of why one is alive more than getting a degree, a job, 2.4 kids, a dog and a split level. Nah, Maharaji just provided a workable fantasy to escape that seemingly droll reality. We should have all just gone to the movies, instead.

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 00:42:48 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: shp Subject: Another apology, the list gets endless, Message:

and then there'll be the apology for having to do another apology for winding people up, at least this time you haven't deja vu'ed the 'and I don't want to outstay my welcome, so I'll go,' only to find you back again at the start of the cycle in ten minutes. `When are you going to take some responsibility for the regular inanities that slip off your tongue? For someone who maintains their great committment to spiritual truth you seem to have learnt nothing about 'discrimination'.

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 02:53:02 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: hamzen Subject: You need to learn how to respond to someone who Message:

sincerely apologizes for something, no matter how often, whether it's me or someone else. That is, if you want to be forgiven yourself for your freaking arrogance here and now.

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 04:35:25 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: shp Subject: Typical new age psychobabble and no responsibility Message:

from you as usual shp. Have you ever had to listen to a record where the needle is stuck, or imagine you dj'ing at a party where you're constantly finding the needle with fluff on it cause the records aren't clean, and then have you mc'ing his apology over and over, and then when the crowd starts jeering, slow handclapping, or emptying the dance floor, you'll start having a go at them for their lack of humility, and wonder why they wait for the next dj before returning, and you'd probably bemoan your fate and complain about how you'd been fucked over by them. If you're gonna preach, which you do incessantly, then get your fucking act together, in fact get a life first, and you'd find you had no need to preach. Shallowness is not impressive, and the constant repetition of the apologies devalues their message. That I should have to give basic kindergarten spiritual lessons to the spiritualist who knows better is unbelievably sad. Learn some real humility, not the fake sort. And finally I have no need to be forgiven by you or anyone else who finds me arrogant because I don't give a flying fuck about what you think of me, and also to go on about arrogance is laughable from you, the person who has no manners in someone else's home. All the people who I respect, by the way, do not find me arrogant in the least, in fact I get accused of being too self-critical and self deprecating, and told in no uncertain terms to big myself up more, Get a fucking life shp, and grow up. Learning to shut up and listen for once might not be a bad idea as well.

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 04:53:12 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: hamzen Subject: And since you have the knowledge of all knowledges Message:

and swim with god, what's with the hypersensitivity and victim mode? If you weren't so transparently worthy and sensitive I would have pitched in with you on your anti-capitalist stance, there's no shortage of material after all, from no primates on this planet living wild, apart from humans, in 25 years time, to bangladesh flooded and 80 million people homeless in thirty years, to the ozone hole spreading faster than expected, to the kurds being destroyed by that new turkish dam funded by the world bank, to loan repayments leading to third world countries sending more in repayments than they receive inaid, aid that quite often goes to first world companies involved in reconstruction anyway, the list is endless.... As someone said to one of the world bank or imf members recently, 'if you arrange loans with leaders who pocket it and do a runner why should the general population have to pay a penny back?' All I'm asking is that you engage your brain before speaking, if you will take such a high and mighty stance. The buddhist sense of discrimination really does have a lot going for it.

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 14:09:18 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: hamzen Subject: I can learn some things and so can you, like if Message:

I had a sincere realization that something I said is wrong and I back off, that you don't try to entrench yourself in some 'high ground' by trying to rub my nose in it over and over. I have a life that is just a valid as yours or anyone else's here. You don't need my personal details any more than I need yours about our lifestyle, employment, etc. That's not what we are discussing here. And I am not hosting a party with a dirty phonograph needle that is dusty and skips, either....very inappropriate analogy. I am not here to entertain you. I still hold humility as a virtue worth striving for, even if it is misunderstood and trampled sometimes. I subscribe to the rule of self-correction no matter how often I have to do it, contrary to popular belief that it's a weak position to say 'I'm sorry'. So hamzen, I just feel like you jumped onto the pile long after the ball was dead and the play was over. In football, you might have been charged with a personal foul. But we aren't playing football or playing 'phonograph records', are we? Ralph Nader packed Madison Square Garden last night with 15,000 people. Don't expect to see or hear about this on your TV, unless it's just a footnote or something with a wacky spin. Tomorrow, Sunday October 15, he will be speaking at Rutgers at 1 pm, in Red Bank at the Count Basie Theatre at 5 pm, and finally at Princeton University at 8:30 pm. If anybody's in the area, you might want to attend. We do agree on some things. Let's focus on those and see where it takes us.

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 16:22:59 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: shp Subject: The problem is shp that this is a gm based site Message:

not an anarchist anti-capitalist eco site. There's loads of shit in my life, good stuff and anti that I don't bring here, it's about gm/new age ideas/gurus/spiritual stuff for me, and so my earlier points are the area we overlap here. Re the analogy re dj'ing, TOTALLY pertinent for me, this is an anti gm-party basically, and I think you could acknowledge that a LOT more, and each thread is like a different room in that party where everyone gets the chance to spin their records. Absolutely no-one else here ends up apologizing the number of times you do, and you still haven't acknowledged this in your actions, or more importantly taken on board the SERIOUS contradictions of your actions when balanced against your preaching. Nor do you seem to show any awareness that spiritual preaching here is guaranteed to inflame. Which is why I go on about your bad manners here, and why every time I see you having to apologize YET again I will jump in. Stop preaching and I might modulate my position as well.

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 16:44:37 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: hamzen Subject: The problem is shp that this is a gm based site Message:

'Absolutely no-one else here ends up apologizing the number of times you do...' -hamzen Perhaps that is because there is so much pride in so many... which is not to say that more apologies from more people are not in order.... -shp

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:26:01 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: shp Subject: Your pink diaper is showing. Message:

SHP: And that was Life, the American Dream. You can participate as long as you hold the same world view as the dominant social order. Otherwise, you will be ostracized and shunned, tagged by the media and local folks who know you and other mind cotnrol organizations as a wacko and not to be trusted. So, if you've finally figured this out then how about getting with the program? Ralph is fun though, isn't he? He may not have been in the debate, but somehow made it onto SNL. Now, is SNL part of Corporate America or Incorporate America, and what's the difference between 'corporate' and 'incorporate?' Why isn't it the same as 'corporeal' and 'incorporeal?' --Scott 'Back to Nature Rowing Society' T.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 22:13:56 (GMT) From: Mr Bubblehead Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: 'Not even a bubble'. Message:

Mr Scott, didn't want to start a new thread so I'll slip in here. I'm so happy you're getting back to nature, even if as a group activety, but from little things, big things happen. I don't like referring back to a dictionary, but it can have a grounding effect on a conversation, and I am trying to stay on the 'same page'. Re transcenteltalism; we are talking of an experience that whole peoples and cultures had, and it was just an everyday connection to the earth. It still is, and is open to anybody, unless my Mum was right, and I am a very special person. People like Emerson and Thoreau run the danger of turning an ordinary, everyday experience into something it isn't, something smacking of elitism. I've watched people drinking coffee on the porch of a coffee shop with a view you have to see to believe, sitting there reading the paper, talk, talk, talking, not even really experiencing their coffee, let along being still and listening. So if your right, and the simple everyday connection to the Earth that is just a part of life, is now considered a 'transcendental' experience, then that it a very sad thing indeed. In the case of Americans, since we don't have a single ethnic heritage we're defined by a common experience and by a series of 'founding events': Colonial Settlement, Revolution, Westward Expansion. These all 'moved' people, but the inference that the land itself was decisive is just not pragmatic or accurate. Big obstacles, like the Rockies, the Great Plains, and the Great Deserts shaped the migrations of course, but our interactions with each other were far more decisive than our relationship to the land or nature, though these were sometimes (often?) important catalysts Of the thousands of treaties that the colonialists made with the Native Americans, every single one of them was broken, and it is thing like that, that have also shaped American culture and made America what it is today. The connection to the land that the colonialists have made, then and now, is a corrupted and distorted one. The interactions we have with people is very important, but the futher from the Earth you get, the less people tend to interact. If you don't agree, then just look at what passes for interaction and warmth in cities and suburbs. I could bombard you with pages of stats here, but that wouldn't be a very Bubbladian thing to do, Yours in Bubbleland Mr Bubblehead

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:44:10 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Reference to pink diaper is lost....que es? Message:

So, if you've finally figured this out then how about getting with the program? Ralph is fun though, isn't he? He may not have been in the debate, but somehow made it onto SNL. Now, is SNL part of Corporate America or Incorporate America, and what's the difference between 'corporate' and 'incorporate?' Why isn't it the same as 'corporeal' and 'incorporeal?' -Scott T. Hey Scott, None of this is new to me. I am just watching how events are playing out in the world, especially now. Don't mistake my childlikeness about these matters for naivetee. It's a good time to be alive. A Hopi elder said recently that the eleventh hour is over and now it is the twelfth hour. Time to notice who you are with, where is your water source, where do you live....unless you know you are covered wherever you are. Time to make the donuts. Peace be with you. shp PS It's not about SNL, it's about FAL (Friday Afternoon Live..NOW!)

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:30:30 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: Do you just choose to not understand the world? Message:

'Corporate America'? What's your preference, idiot? Rural America? NGO America? Some hoped-for Socialist America? What? Your carp against 'Corporate America' is as cliched and uninteresting as everything else you say. Sandy, it sounds, quite frankly like you haven't been able to accomplish much in life. Is that right? What kind of work do you do? (I'm assuming that you work and aren't on welfare some form of handout). What's your real-life involvement in the world? Maybe you could share some of your ideas with the person sitting next to you at the next free Sunday Hare Krishna feast. You are going, aren't you? Don't forget, it's free.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:10:02 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: One Flew over the Plate Message:

Jim: Re: 'Corporate America'? What's your preference, idiot? Rural America? NGO America? Some hoped-for Socialist America? What? Your carp against 'Corporate America' is as cliched and uninteresting as everything else you say. Heh. You're bearing out the rather perverse but accurate premise that Canadians are now more tolerant of big business than Americans. I'm close to writing a paper on it. Don't know what the samhill Sandy is talking about, but then I never do. How about 'Lawyer America?' Never mind. --Scott 'Back to Nature Rowing Society' T.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:22:32 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: One Flew over the Plate in you Head Message:

Hey Scottie, I got gerry over here on this side of the border agreeing with me about how corp US is messing up the country. So now it's not about Maharaji anymore, it's range war!!!! (hahahahaha) Really, Scott, I think that if a premie said the sky was blue, you'd take issue with it. shp

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:33:35 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: shp Subject: You're clearly deluded. Message:

The sky is pink. Seriously though, I think it's all a matter of context. Big business is more powerful in the US, while labor has been declining for decades. As a result people tend to trust unions more, and business leaders less. Exactly the opposite is true in Canada, notwithstanding the far more social democratic lean of Canadian politics. I warn you however, the age of class conflict is waning. This is now a 'quality of life' conflict. Maharaji is 'corporate spirituality.' How could you miss that? --Scott 'Back to Nature Rowing Society' T.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:48:12 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: It's rainbow-striped and indigo with sparks too. Message:

It's not the labor vs management vs big business or anything like that. It's the lack of respect for human life and the ultimate respect for the bottom line = money that disappoints me. shp

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 03:32:27 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: shp Subject: It's rainbow-striped and indigo with sparks too. Message:

What you are disappointed in is exactly what Maharaji stands for: 1)ultimate respect for money 2)lack of respect for human life You do the math! Your sister in the rainbow, Helen

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 14:42:20 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Helen Subject: It's rainbow-striped and indigo with sparks too. Message:

What you are disappointed in is exactly what Maharaji stands for: 1)ultimate respect for money 2)lack of respect for human life You do the math! Your sister in the rainbow, Helen Dear Helen, Thank you for your sisterly energy. I know that things appear to be contradictory. Here I am, an aging hippie who still has not sold out (even though I wear suits sometimes...like Arlo said 'if we all cut our hair and wore suits, nobody would know who to hate'), subscribing to a teacher who appears to be drenched in the material world. Yeah, it looks weird, doesn't it? Makes me look like a schizo, or brainwashed, or seized up, to you. I am none of the above, I assure you. Helen, I think there is more going on than meets the eye, even the scrutinizing eye of the investigative elements here on this site. Don't ask me why and expect a nice answer with hospital corners all folded in nice and neat, it's not like that. I sincerely do not believe that Maharaji ultimately respects money and does not respect human life. I do understand how it could and does look that way in the lighting and editorial context of this site. So you see me as a potentially nice guy but lost in the labyrinth of Maharaji's game and I see myself as someone who has received Knowledge from a person whose personal life is none of my business. What he gave me works when I use it, I am thankful for that, and that's about it. You better believe that he blew out all my concepts too, of what my teacher of Knowledge would manifest like, but as the saying goes, the tree is known by the fruit, and the fruit was Knowledge which is pure and original magic in my own life, the same magic that makes the sky into a rainbow...not Prem Rawat, but the energy he is aware of and can share with others in the strict context of Knowledge. Please don't interpret this as my trying to slip in satsang, as I am so often accused of. I am just trying to communicate my position to you as simply as I can. I was alot more involved earlier on, but I am pretty much spending most of my energy maintaining a household with no immediate plans to relocate to Amaroo or anything like that. I'm just a guy, ya know? I have been portrayed as a wacknut here, and I must admit that I have contributed to that image by my own personal idiosyncracies (magnified in this rarified environment) and my vulnerability to being baited and dragged into stupid posts. But let's face it, anyone and everyone who comes here and does not drop Maharaji like a hot potato is pretty much dealt with in the same way. I just drew alot of fire because of my frequency in posting. So my karma speeded up here by frequent posting. Any premie who does not cop to the exers will sooner or later be treated as I have been. This is not a victim thing, it's just observation of what has gone down. So thanks again for reaching out...it's appreciated anytime. shp

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 15:58:59 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: shp Subject: My honest thoughts about you Message:

I agree with you that at times you have been treated unfairly here. At other times I think you have been ridiculed because you don't want to debate on an intellectual level. For example, there are countless examples here on the forum of Maharaji NOT caring about other people, such as recently from Michael Dettmers. Certainly Cynthia's post about the DECCA project being a slave camp is very indicting. Not only did she work night and day to the detriment of her health (and was encouraged to do so), but witnessed how Maharaji encouraged people to divorce their spouses and leave their children in order to move into the ashram. As a caring person, how can that be defensible in any way--to have young children separated from their parents? That is just plain selfishness. Dettmers said that he never witnessed M showing caring to anyone but his own family. Dettmers and Cynthia WANTED to beleive in M with all their hearts. It's not that they didn't try hard enough or look deep enough. They gave everything, and then had to see for themselves that M wasn't what they thought he was. I suspect that you have poured all your best intentions into Maharaji as well, and you associate him with all these idealized qualities that you believe in. It's great that you want to be a spiritual person, or a humanitarian person. what is so annoying about you shp, is that you project those qualities onto Maharaji. You insist that he is something other than what the evidence presents because you so much want it to be so. This is why people accuse you of magical thinking. I think you are frightened that if you let go of this belief system you will be separated from your source. This is not true. But your insistence in holding Maharaji in a positive light, just because you have put him there in your own imagination, is why you seem so childish to many here. That is a childish way of looking at the world, insisting that something is true just because you want it to be. We all are familiar with that because we all have been through it ourselves. That is why people beat up on you, because you remind them of ourselves at another stage in our development when we were trapped in a single view of M and couldn't see the evidence before us. I recommend a book on adult developmental stages called 'Transformations: Growth and Change in Adult Life' by RObert Gould, MD. I have been re-reading it lately and it is helping to embrace mid-life by facing it. I have been in a mid-life funk for about a year now and this book really is helping me to see that I can't go back to the safety of the beliefs I once had, but I can go forward into new kinds of freedom, there are alot of things to look forward to. And BTW, I haven't let go of my belief in God, and I don't think it's necessary to do so to be an adult.

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 16:36:33 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Helen Subject: reply to Helen Message:

'I think you are frightened that if you let go of this belief system you will be separated from your source.' -Helen Helen, I believe that if I act with sincerity I can never be separated from my source. Right before I ran into Maharjai back in 1976, I was a life-vowed brother in a Holy Order. I had in good faith given it all up to serve that way for life. Big step. Especially having been raised as a Jew, then realizing the teachings of Christ were valid and were in truth the second volume of the Old Testament. (I am talking about a deeper esoteric understanding, not a crazy Jesus-freak or TV evangelist thing). I am not afraid of peer pressure or being disconnected from my source. A search is necessary to find what is real in this life, and I believe we are given all the slack we need to find what we are looking for. The only ones who lose are the ones who give up before they find what they were originally looking for. The only reason I left was a very strong impulse that Maharaji was delivering the same realization, only alive and contemporary. But you know this because you felt that way too. Western culture and eastern culture have different ideas about the relationship between a student and a teacher. I think this has been the source of alot of the concepts and misconceptions. This is not a defense, just an explanation of how I see it. And now that Michael Dettmers is down on Maharaji, he is being quoted all over the place by ex-premies....simply because he has said some things that resonate here, not because you respect him. So anyway, I will check out that book. Couldn't hurt. shp

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 21:06:58 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: shp Subject: reply to Helen Message:

I don't disparage you for searching for enlightenment or spiritual understanding. And I DO believe you that you're not afraid to go against the grain. But part of the ability to penetrate the issues at hand and find the truth, is to apply your intellectual intelligence to the situation. Maharaji deserves such scrutiny. After all, if you embrace the Indian Hindu guru model as a viable way to enlightenment, you want to pick someone who is impeccable, don't you? I think what happened is M presented 'knowledge' to you, you like the meditation, and the experience more than other meditations you had tried, and now you can't be critical of M. You're giving him way too much credit for the experience you have had of personal growth with the knowledge meditation. He has got you right where he wants you, in that 'grateful' place, unquestioning of him.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:40:58 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: corporate madness is killing our country Message:

Oh the sins committed in the name of fudiciary responsibility to shareholders. Yes, a limited socialist system like you have in Canada and in some European countries would be highly preferable to the abomination we have in this country.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:53:54 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: gerry Subject: Tell it to Jim, gerry. Message:

I have to go do some things in 3-D now. Later. shp

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:40:06 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Take your sarcasm + self-serving self-righteous- Message:

ness and shove it up there where I advised you to place the Forum intro which invites premies to participate. Or shove it through one of your ears until it comes out the other side, like a big Q-tip. I have accomplished finding out what my human life is all about, with a little help form my friends. The rest is details. Your immature, class-conscious, condescending, upmanship games bore me as much if not more than my posts allegedly bore you. So like I have said and you have said, let this be the last time you post to me and everything will be copasetic. Soon, if you don't keep your own word and stop posting to me, I will just tire of you once and for all and learn to ignore you. shp

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:56:51 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: I guess that means 'unemployed'? (nt) Message:

ffffff

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:04:37 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: I guess that means you have no credit with me and Message:

have no right to any other personal information about me, whether I am working or not. You are about the last person in the world I need to answer to, pro or con. Your line of questioning does however reveal a certain snobbishness and caste-class-consciousness I daresay some presently unemployed ex-premies might find offensive... Your line of questioning reveals just how brainwashed you are to what is important, what is transient, and what really matters. Bent the truth much lately to win a case? Omitted anything? Kept anything quiet lately to maintain your own job security? Don't bother answering, I think I know the answers. Cuts both ways. I tire of you. shp

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 20:08:03 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: I can't see why YOU'd have trouble finding work! Message:

Shp, Why don't you invest in a good leaf blower or something? Come on, man, you can do it! There's work out there, shp. Corporate America or Non-corporate America, take your pick, everyone's hiring. And listen, asshole, I've got every right to discuss your employment -- or lack thereof. You started dissing me and my work long before I ever thought of yours. But then I DID think and what I thought was this: 'Who in the world would ever want to hire a guy like shp? And to do WHAT?' But that was before I thought of leaf-blowing.

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 03:08:52 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Who said I'm not working? You are just baiting me Message:

and your bait is rotten, just like your breath probably. You don't deserve the trust and the information about my life that you are prying for, so give it up. I tire of you even more, and the more I tire of you, the more adamant your efforts seem to be to get my goat. Just like the second rate lawyer you probably are.... You are most likely not as successful as you'd like to be, so you come here after work and pump up your ego plying your wares with those of us who are less trained at using lanuguage as a manipulative tool. That's your number, bud, do you like the truth about you in your face? Well, like it or not, there it is. You can stick your leaf blower in there with the rest of the stuff you having been trying to palm off on me. Why don't you go tell another ex-premie how to think or something?

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 02:57:12 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Class/employment ostracism is right up your alley Message:

At least leaf-blowers don't screw people in the name of justice to win court cases.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:46:47 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: nigel Subject: An awkward and inappropriate attempt to relate.... Message:

...and empathize is where my words were coming from. My motive was in the right place. My words missed entirely. If I had said anything, it should have been something like: 'I've had some bad shit happen to me in the past, but I cannot even imagine how terrible that (rape) must have been for you to experience.' This post is not to water down my previous apology and correction. It is to let you know that I know, so we have a deeper conscious awareness of each other's being. I am not a caricature of a premie and you are not a caricature of an ex. We a still real people trying to live real lives. shp

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:08:03 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: shp Subject: shp:You sly and sleek bastered. Message:

Where did I hear this before: sincerely apologize to anyone who was negatively affected and then you go back to your little games, and then you apologize, then some game. Get off it. Anyway enjoy the beating. We are serving coffee and do-nuts for free today.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:20:52 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Salam Subject: How many times shall I forgive? Seven times a day? Message:

In this here and now, you are not worthy of your own name, which means peace. How does it feel to be perfect? I still make mistakes. Things could be worse. Like if you were my mom. You unforgivng wretch. You are just being a gadfly with old shit stuck on your wings, spreading the fumes as you flutter around fanning flames instead of making effort to put them out. It's not just a cultural or language barrier with you, which you quickly hide behind. In truth, you are being an asshole on this post, whoever you are, and wherever you are from. God created good people and assholes in all colors, creeds and nationalities. You are proof. No discrimination here, except against bullshit. Now that I have vented, grow up Salam. shp

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:33:02 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: shp Subject: You should thank me shp. Message:

I make you reach into you inner self. I must say that I detect some honesty in you. Your post make me laugh, I can see you are on fire. Sorry. Oh and by the way. My name IS Salam and I do not hide behind a screen. Check my e-mail and journey entry, they all have the same name. I do not need it. What I say is what I feel. It's all comming from the heart. Carry on. We will make that decision by the end of the day. Be happy, and please do not change, we like you the way you are. Honest.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:51:17 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Salam Subject: Yeah, thanks for not putting a stick in my eye. Message:

You missed my point entirely. Back when I compared your online persona to a chihuahua, I was accused of being racist. That was totalling not true. You vibe was like a little critter nipping at heels and making alot of racket. A chihuahua was the first example that came to mind of how you were acting, as I saw it. That is what I meant by 'hiding' behind your culture, etc. And then you go on to say 'WE' will make a decision' and 'WE' like you just the way you are.... Who in the world do you think you speak for on such short notice? Don't you have enough personal integrity to say 'I' when that is truly who you are representing? The 'WE' makes you feel bigger, eh? Communication always teaches something to the attentive, regardless of who the communication is with. It ain't you, babe. It's the process. Don't get a bigger head than you already have or you'll need a wheelbarrow to cart it around in. shp

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:05:53 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: shp Subject: There you go again. Message:

Ok, I will not speak for everone else, happy? Really shp, I am a very gentle person in real life. Can not see anyone hurting. Affects me very badly. I am only pulling your leg. (But you know I was talking to someone and he said....., and the there was this other someone and he said..., so 'WE',....blah blah blah)

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:17:45 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Salam Subject: Anyway, I have a quote for you Message:

from Who is GM, page220, I myself am not a Hindu. I am not a Hindu (I do not understand why he repeats himself). I am not a Christian. I am not a Sikh. Then Who Am I? I belive in one reality and that is pure religion. Any idea what pure religion is?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:25:31 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Salam Subject: Yeah I have an idea of what pure religion is. Message:

Playful little sprite, aren't you?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 16:38:27 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: shp Subject: Me, no way. Message:

by the way shppy (notice I am being friendly here) I do sympethise with your plight and think that it is non of anyone's bussines to be sticky beak. The porpose of this forum [including you] is to expose maharaji and all those others around him. would not you say so? Also I did somework on that Pure Religion thing. I think your guru was refering to the fact that he is a decendent of the Rahdisoami cult, which he obviously think is superior, what your idea about it shppy?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 19:40:08 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Salam Subject: So if you can call me 'shippy', I can call you... Message:

'Salamy', right? hahahahahahaha Now you can call me a 'meat racist'! I don't think heritage necessarily has to do with true religion. As for the purpose of this Forum, what you said seems to be one of the priorities. As for the rest, baloney, Salamy!

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 01:55:23 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: shp Subject: You missed the 'you' part in my post Message:

you boofhead. Read it again. I did not know that you have joined the team. But I have just woken up. Give me time to charge up, then we start again. Anyway my name if Salam not Salame. Notice I did not use your real name and change it to something else. Ya?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:43:44 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: shp Subject: Sandy that was great Message:

And I agree with every word. Hey, maybe there's hope for you yet! Just kidding. Good job.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 15:30:03 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: gerry Subject: to gerry Message:

Gerry, I believe that one's evolutionary and soul development and therefore one's personal freedom is advanced by acknowledgement of the truth in every here and now.....and also by practicing Knowledge. This in turn raises human consciousness on the planet, everybody pouring in their little dixie cup makes a big difference the more people who do it....Getting truly 'high; as in raising one's consciousness, just through through telling the truth. I'm a reasonable and calm guy when not provoked. Trick is to be reasonable and calm even when provoked, then we'd be getting somewhere. There is hope for us all, with plenty to spare. shp

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:51:58 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: everyone Subject: repost of above Message:

Raped? Terrible analogy - but interesting implications.. Lower down a visiting premie typed as follows: I know what rape feels like. I got it from corporate America, a few very abusive employers and some Federal goverment hacks. Same feeling. God - the sheer bloody insensitivity, stupidity, bad spelling and and - well - let's say it was hard stifling the belly-laugh. And rape is not remotely funny - I just mean the idea you can discover how rape, or the after-effects - feel after you've been kept waiting or pushed around by government bureaucrats, or were once paid peanuts to shovel shit - and which among us has never been? (having formerly had the sorts of job premies were fit for - those you could leave at the drop of a hat to get to the next festival ) I know there are a few forum posters who have been raped in real life. I admire the way they buttoned their lips at the dumbness of this premie's post. Were they rendered speechless..? Perhaps they missed it. I hope so. But the analogy raises interesting questions when you bear in mind the same premie just this week played the question of 'free-will' as Fatwat's trump card, as in: at no point were we forced to remain loyal, we were always free to leave, we all had free will so you can't blame Maharaji for blitzing your brain cells, corrupting your innocence or anything else. Ok, so let's talk about rape and free-will. Or corporate America and free-will. Or Maharaji and free-will, and see where it goes First, a rapist never needs to use violence. Fear of consequences will suffice and is usually preferred over violence - it leaves no visible scars (so the rapist can plead 'consent' on the part of the victim later). You could, of course, argue that the victim might apply free-will to refuse consent and face whatever consequences. Of course they could. Yeah, who wouldn't? And corporate America? Nobody is forced to work for a bad employer, since we have free-will. Ok, there may be undesirable consequences in being homeless and hungry, but the choice is still yours, so you can't blame anybody but yourself if you are treated like shit by your boss. Just as the mouse is always free to hunt the cat And nobody has to pay taxes or abide by the law, do they? After all, we are free to choose jail. And the cult? Yes - as this premie insists - we were always free to just walk any time we liked. But, again, the consequences were not nice - or so we were constantly reminded. Shall we count the ways? Turning your back on the only opportunity you will get in a thousand lifetimes to know God.. Smashing into a thousand pieces Turning into rotting vegetables inside Going to Hell (yes, Maharaji did threaten this one during his notorious 'Christmas Satsang' of 1979.) And other variants of these cruel promises were propagated by iniatiators throughout my time in the cult. I was there. I listened to Maharaji making his threats (live and on video) and his drones carrying the spirit of his message to the wider world. I remember Pete Dawson telling aspirants 'I would rather be on a space rocket heading out of control towards the sun than receive Knowledge before I was ready.' And Jeez, what could this mean? What unseen powers of darkness might we be dealing with here. What do M's 'rotting vegetables' or 'smashing into a thousand pieces' refer to? - Nervous breakdown? Psychosis? What..?!! What does 'Hell' mean? - Everlasting torment, perhaps What else could it mean? Stick and carrot all the way, with plenty of stick and carrot just round the corner. But the scars are invisible so this premie (on Maharaji's behalf) can now plead 'consent' on our part. Neat analogy SHP. Well said, indeed.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 23:14:57 (GMT) From: ham Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk To: Nigel Subject: Yeah indeed Nigel (and an OT urgent request) Message:

TYPICAL new age dribble that slips from his brain, words without responsibility, absolutely no shame, and a total impossibility that anything with depth could appear. Tom & Jerry seems miles more real than the Wizard of Oz cartoon reality that he seems to live in. Assuming of course that he's like that in real life and isn't just a complete ........ Wish I could be angry enough or whatever to respond to that crap at the moment, but the sheer unreality of shp & his ilk I find I'm needing a brain release from at the moment. Even withiin the 'spiritual' frame of reference he & they use, their discourse is unbelievably banal & irrelevant. That's what years of justifying lila and listening to bonehead does for ya. (GM the Middlesborough years gazza of the spiritual world.) On a completely different tack, would you be up for a visit and me crashing at your place for a couple of nights middle of next week? Even if not, got some info you might really be interested in re Liverpool area, well maybe. Oh Nige, also which of your e-mails is your current one, says another space cadet from the sixties!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 23:50:42 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: ham Subject: You can have the sofa-bed... Message:

Are you coming up to Liverpool, Ham? - culture-shock not withstanding... Course you can stay chez moi. Pretty spartan mad student and post-grad house (your style, maybe?) but you're more than welcome, of course. Hey - we could invite that Loaf-ji out for a bevvy. Email as above.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:10:33 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Hurrah !!! (NT) Message:

bog off

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:55:57 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Nigel Subject: ** final attempted repost of original message ** Message:

Raped? Terrible analogy - but interesting implications.. Lower down a visiting premie typed as follows: I know what rape feels like. I got it from corporate America, a few very abusive employers and some Federal goverment hacks. Same feeling. God - the sheer bloody insensitivity, stupidity, bad spelling and and - well - let's say it was hard stifling the belly-laugh. And rape is not remotely funny - I just mean the idea you can discover how rape, or the after-effects - feel after you've been kept waiting or pushed around by government bureaucrats, or were once paid peanuts to shovel shit - and which among us has never been? (having formerly had the sorts of job premies were fit for - those you could leave at the drop of a hat to get to the next festival ) I know there are a few forum posters who have been raped in real life. I admire the way they buttoned their lips at the dumbness of this premie's post. Were they rendered speechless..? Perhaps they missed it. I hope so. But the analogy raises interesting questions when you bear in mind the same premie just this week played the question of 'free-will' as Fatwat's trump card, as in: at no point were we forced to remain loyal, we were always free to leave, we all had free will so you can't blame Maharaji for blitzing your brain cells, corrupting your innocence or anything else. Ok, so let's talk about rape and free-will. Or corporate America and free-will. Or Maharaji and free-will, and see where it goes First, a rapist never needs to use violence. Fear of consequences will suffice and is usually preferred over violence - it leaves no visible scars (so the rapist can plead 'consent' on the part of the victim later). You could, of course, argue that the victim might apply free-will to refuse consent and face whatever consequences. Of course they could. Yeah, who wouldn't? And corporate America? Nobody is forced to work for a bad employer, since we have free-will. Ok, there may be undesirable consequences in being homeless and hungry, but the choice is still yours, so you can't blame anybody but yourself if you are treated like shit by your boss. Just as the mouse is always free to hunt the cat And nobody has to pay taxes or abide by the law, do they? After all, we are free to choose jail. And the cult? Yes - as this premie insists - we were always free to just walk any time we liked. But, again, the consequences were not nice - or so we were constantly reminded. Shall we count the ways? Turning your back on the only opportunity you will get in a thousand lifetimes to know God.. Smashing into a thousand pieces Turning into rotting vegetables inside Going to Hell (yes, Maharaji did threaten this one during his notorious 'Christmas Satsang' of 1979.) And other variants of these cruel promises were propagated by iniatiators throughout my time in the cult. I was there. I listened to Maharaji making his threats (live and on video) and his drones carrying the spirit of his message to the wider world. I remember Pete Dawson telling aspirants 'I would rather be on a space rocket heading out of control towards the sun than receive Knowledge before I was ready.' And Jeez, what could this mean? What unseen powers of darkness might we be dealing with here. What do M's 'rotting vegetables' or 'smashing into a thousand pieces' refer to? - Nervous breakdown? Psychosis? What..?!! What does 'Hell' mean? - Everlasting torment, perhaps What else could it mean? Stick and carrot all the way, with plenty of stick and carrot just round the corner. But the scars are invisible so this premie (on Maharaji's behalf) can now plead 'consent' on our part. Neat analogy SHP. Well said, indeed.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 23:25:40 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Nigel Subject: ** final attempted repost of original message ** Message:

I really like the way your mind works (sorry that phrase has ghastly conotations for us)- a true survivor. Are you the Nigel who is a psychologist on 'journies'? If so, I relate to what you say a lot. i spent years wanting to study psychology then thinking 'no there is no point cos K is all people need etc etc' Now,22 years later I am doing postgrad research into masculinity, music and (curiously) the mind/body split, love Moldy warp

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:06:44 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Everyone Subject: Singing The Praises Message:

From Webster's thesaurus at http://www.m-w.com/ Please see entry #3. A few adjectives that suit PP the Monster. Entry Word: sorry Function: adjective Text: 1 Synonyms SAD 1, heavyhearted, melancholy, mournful, saddened, unhappy Related Word bad, regretful, remorseful; miserable, wretched Antonyms glad 2 Synonyms REMORSEFUL, apologetic, attritional, compunctious, contrite, penitent, penitential, regretful, repentant 3 Synonyms CONTEMPTIBLE, beggarly, cheap, despicable, despisable, mean, pitiable, scummy, scurvy, shabby Related Word inadequate, paltry, poor, trifling; cheesy, scruffy, shoddy; disgraceful

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:03:14 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Repost from below Message:

I hope Michael doesn't mind, but I want to post a statement from a long post in the middle of one of the lower threads below. This is one of the clearest explanations of Maharaji's behavior that I've ever read, and I wanted to remove it from the contest of personal argument. If you read this, please keep in mind that Michael was not defending Maharaji - just stating what he observed to be Maharaji's mindset - specifically during the time of the DECA project and ashram closing. (Emphasis is mine.) Michael wrote: It’s not as though these problems were impossible to rectify in and of themselves. But the culture of devotion in which we focus the energy and the resources necessary to create a structure that properly took care of people’s dignity and physical needs. Instead, this culture fostered the belief that only Maharaji’s needs were important because, even though he really doesn’t have any needs, he creates them out of mercy and compassion so that his devotees will have something to do for him since this is the only way to surrender and thereby realize knowledge. I think that Maharaji really believed this to be the truth. Hence, I believe he viewed the closing of the ashrams as a kind of failure on the part of the ashram premies – a failure to recognize the opportunity he was offering or a failure to be grateful for the opportunity. So even though he agreed that they should be closed, I don’t think he felt he owed anybody anything. After all, he was already giving us everything and we were just too blind and ungrateful to recognize and appreciate it. I completely agree with this statement. Everything I've read on this forum, and everything I experienced when I was a premie have lead me to believe that Maharaji's sense of 'entitlement' is immense, and that he really believes that he has sacrificed his life for the sake of the premies AND that they don't fully 'appreciate' him. There have been many premies that have posted here who are still saying things like 'Maharaji gives so much and asks so little'. I think this attitude is prevalent in EV - and I believe it accounts for the poor treatment of individual premies, as reference Janet's account of her treatment at a program in April. In other words, the attitude is that Janet's (or any other individual premies') problems are so small compared to what she is receiving that they don't matter. When I was a premie, so much of my so-called 'devotion' was based on guilt that I wasn't doing enough for Maharaji. I was perfectly positioned to be sucked into this because I'd been brought up to feel that I had to be completely giving (never thinking about myself) to be good enough. I didn't have a religious upbringing, but people who were brought up Catholic or hard-line Protestant tend to feel the same way - as many people have testified on this forum. Probably some of you who were raised as Christians have heard the saying that when you do something 'wrong' or 'selfish', you are putting another nail in Jesus's cross. (Or something similar.) This is exactly how I think Maharaji views himself - he's done so much, and the ungrateful wretched premies (not to mention the ex-premies) don't appreciate it enough and they keep pounding more nails in the huge cross he has to bear. I believe this sense of guilt and obligation is clearly communicated to all the premies - and that, of course, they will never EVER be able to do enough to fufill Maharaji's sense of entitlement. I also believe that this sense of guilt and obligation keeps people involved in the cult - I know it made ME stay involved long after I didn't want to be there. Some people here would like Maharaji to apologize for things like closing the ashrams. I don't think it will ever happen. He's probably still waiting for OUR apologies - which he sincerely believes he deserves. Thank you, Michael, for posting this statement! Sincerely, Katie

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 21:30:30 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Katie Subject: Every breath you take without remembering holy Message:

name, you are crucifying christ. This is what Mahatma Adharanand said to us after revealing the techniques. Oh and if a word passes your lips that is not satsang, you will come back as a croaking frog, and any action that is not service? you guessed it, a dog!!! Well the frog and the dog didn't bother me too much, but he got me with the crucifying christ..hahahaha Thanks for the post, i wish I thought you were wrong, it is very frustrating when someone is just so insistently delusional, they really are wearing teflon underpants, so however deft the kick they just don't seem to feel it.

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 14:12:56 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: holy halitosis! Message:

Hey, so you too got the special 'K' from Adharanand. Blimey, I wonder what's happened to him? Strange that an Indian mahatma should give such a loaded bias (dare I say guilt-trip?) to us Westerners. Sometimes I think someone, over in Prem Nagar in the early 70s, had this whole thing thought out. Pity really, my fondest memories of Adharanand are of him playing the guitar in his own inimitable fashion (i.e. upside-down - the guitar, that is), and of his almost unpenetratably thick accent, which turned satsang into an interesting exercise in 'what the hell did he just say?'. Ah, well, ... poor old Adharanand. What kind of punishment do you think he deserves for equating forgetting 'holy name' as we called technique number (... er what number is it?) with re-crucifying JC? Perhaps his punishment is simply to be remembered only for having said that.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:25:32 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Katie Subject: All is not lost Message:

Michael's most salient points are all preserved here on my website. I think you're right to some extent Katie but I have a sneaking suspicion that Maharaji doesn't think like he did back in the seventies any more. I think he has a grudging respect for ex-premies and our medieval opposition to him. Where he comes from, whole religions are built up around anti-guru people. The Thuggies come to mind. He knows he made a big mistake in pretending to be God. The Mishler tape shows that he knew what he was doing. And I think he's at least worldly wise enough to realise that he's caused this backlash against him.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:14:43 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Katie Subject: an enormous guilt trip Message:

Dear Katie Thanks for re-posting that and for your analysis on the subject. I suspect this is true, and Michael oughta know since he was so close to Maharaji. I know we all have explored this topic of what is going on in M's mind, who does he really think he is, and what his attitude towards the premies is, etc. I have immense curiousity about this. I admit that I cannot grasp the mentality that you and Michael are describing here. It sounds so incredibly delusional that I can't even fathom it. It makes me incredibly sad. What exactly does M think he is giving that would be worth all the sacrifice people have made? I still am not clear on it. I keep thinking if I understood it better I could see it all clearly. What it amounts to is an enormous guilt trip by a delusional person. I guess I never will understand it. Okay, time to go get more medicine for my daughter and guinea pig food for TInky and WInky.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:24:53 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: FA, I think you have to deal with this (re Brian) Message:

In a post below, Brian says this: But 'Roger E. Drek' also has a real name. If he continues to use this forum (which is paid for by volunteers who want to support the spreading of truth online) to ANONYMOUSLY carry on a personal campaign against you, or to publicise here any off-site material 'exposing you', feel free to ask me for it. So I think you've got to deal this this. (Insert typical joke about how that's what you get paid the big bucks for.) I think you have to decide if Brian's justified holding this threat over Roger's head and, if not, what to do about it.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:05:58 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Jim Subject: Who is Roger eDrek? Message:

You can find out who Roger eDrek is by contacting Robert Jacobs at the law firm of Milbank, Tweed, et al. or by contacting the national headquarters of Elan Vital. They know who I am. With great reluctance on my part they did get my real name on my written responses to stand up and challenge their efforts to shutdown my website. However, I do not believe that it is the legal or ethical right of anyone to 'out me' as, at least, I hope I am not yet a certifiable Public Person. However, I contend that Michael Dettmers is a Public Person for having stepped into the limelight during his tenure as an officer and Instructor of Maharaji. Not only have I had to endure Maharaji through Elan Vital and its attorneys shutdown and censor my website I have also had well meaning ex-premies request similar such control over the content on the Roger's House of Maharaji Drek as well. While I do carefully consider such requests and while I might even make such changes, I oppose outside editorial control of any type. Therefore, I may even retain certain objectionable content just because I was asked to remove it. Regardless of the quality of the 'journalism' at the House, it is my right of Free Speech as guaranteed by law. In fact, when I challenged the efforts of Maharaji and Bob Jacobs to shutdown the House, I was more concerned over the abuse of my rights of Free Speech than whether it was Maharaji or whomever. No, without the rights of Free Speech we probably couldn't even have this Forum where we, ok, only some of us, go nuts and say things in a heated moment that we might later regret. We are, indeed, fortunate. I'd really appreciate that I was not 'outed' because I really think that there just might be some lunatics out there that really, really don't like Roger eDrek and some of the content on his website. At times I am afraid for my personal safety. I am afraid of a bongo acting as a modern-day Fakiranand to defend the honor of his/her Master, Maharaji. Sure, we've been told for years and years that we've got Jim Heller and many others publicly way out in the open and I commend them all for that. However, I have made a personal choice as allowed by the rules of the Forum to remain anonymous. I have made that choice as have many, many others here have made the same choice for one reason or another. And that choice should be respected and it should especially be respected by those operating the Forum and by those whom have been told of identities and with the implicit or explicit knowledge that such information was confidential. To reveal anyone's identity against their wishes is an extreme breach of that implicit or explicit confidentiality. Such a breach of confidentiality is, IMO, a very, very dangerous precedent to set in terms of the expectations, needs, and desires of the Forum community. And, please forgive my being overly sanctimonious when I say that to act with such complete and total disregard and outright malice to the Forum Policies for the purpose of being vindictive is unthinkable, unconscionable, inexcusable, and unforgivable. And, this includes privately through email or any other form of communication. There has never ever been a time that I have told anyone that it was ok to reveal my identity other than when I was asked and gave specific consent. At this time, I do not desire that my identity be revealed to anyone. I hope that this request has and can be respected. To prevent anyone from thinking that I am running away from this I wish to say that I will be offline for awhile off on holiday. Also, while time doesn't permit it now, I am or was considering removing all references to Ms. Ross from the Michael Dettmers expose. I believe Mr. Dettmers when he says that she was not involved. It's the very least I can do and I may consider more as well inspite of my tendency to have it remain just to put a bee in everyone's bonnet.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 17:12:58 (GMT) From: Forum Administrator Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Who is Roger eDrek? Message:

Q: Doesn't freedom of speech also allow Brian to pass on information he knows by email? (I don't know, I'm just asking - it seems like a complex issue). Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't endorsing Brian passing on your identity by email - if he ever intended to do that (and I have no idea, one way or the other). I was just saying that if he chose to, I wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 00:56:27 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Forum Administrator Subject: Who is Roger eDrek? Message:

Yes, Freedom of Speech allows anybody to just about anything that they want. And I know that the Forum Administrator has no control over how people use their own personal email. However, my point was that I have always disclosed my true identity to others with the caveat or request that they not divulge it to any one else without my express permission. What Brian wishes to do is to violate that confidentiality agreement. At best this is a gentleman's agreement. Breaking it has no major consequences other than that to do so reveals something about the one party. I would advise anyone coming onto the Forum and making acquaintance with others here that if they really want to remain anonymous without fear that they should never reveal their true identity. I have seen tToo many times how people have outed bits and pieces of me from time to time.

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 19:06:35 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Roger -- you're the man Message:

Roger, you are scurrilous. Don't stop now it's working. Seriously though, I cannot recall that I've seen a more flagrant attempt at imposing a party line than Brian's recent threat to blow your cover to a onetime most senior cult operative. Kind of arrogant, I thought. Brian may be sure Dettmers is out of the cult, but it's not so clear to others, including me. Though, I have to say that Jim is probably right - his instincts seem most sound on these matters, and he's had the benefit of a few chats with the good Deacon. My doubts are to do with the idiotic way MD says crap like 'well, he never actually said I am God, now, did he.' Dettmets must be one hell of an idiot if he thinks that kind of premie-minded prattle will cut any ice at all in the larger world. You were his fookin' DEACON, Dettmers. Semantic hair-splitting is NOT a good idea for a man in your position. Makes you look devious, you know? And in much the same vein, Gerry has drawn attention to Dettmer's confusion in accepting Rawat was 'an ordinary mortal' way back in the '70s, yet one that was a 'perfect master'. So, to some extent, the Deacon is still, dazzled by the ahem, personality of Rawat. It's a puzzle to me. Like Who is Guru Maharaji? Hey! he's just this guy, you know. But who was the Deacon? A believer or an accomplice? THAT's not clear. He paints a picture of someone who believed at least a bit - and is still a little confused. But the picture could also be of an accomplice who now repents (at least a little). Does that repentance flow from his newly awakened sense of ethics? Or does he merely trim his sails the better to weather the storm? And what's the hurry to settle on the former view? Why the pressure when it's been decades, already?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:27:24 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Roger, one more thing -- re Dettmers Message:

Roger, Dettmers has now said some very pointed and critical things about Maharaji. I really do challenge you to explain how you haven't yet heard enough to satisfy you that he's sincere. Please, PLEASE, bear in mind all the bizarre and unfair suspicion you endured in that regard. Now, I know that Dettmers situation is different in some key respects. His position, the way he left, his post-cult business associations. But the real proof is in the pudding, Rog. All of those things can -- and to many of us -- HAVE been adequately explained. Conversely, I have to ask: have you ever heard of anyone who'd actually diss Maharaji as Michael did who WAS a 'spy'? Indeed, have we ever come across a real spy of any kind? Ever? (Besides Rob, of course [joke!]) We're not talking conspiracy thoeries, Rog. After all you went through I just have to imagine that you'd be the last person to take such seriously. We're talking evidence. And the evidence I see is that Michael's been more open and sincere about this than any of the other backstage boys. He deserves credit and he deserves YOUR credit. I agree with Joe that your initial satire of him was entirely called for in all the circumstances. But that was then and much has happened since. Who the fuck cares how many premies Dettmers still has coffee with? Read his posts again. There's no way in the world that he's on a mission from God-in-Human-Form. By the way, where you taking a holiday? Email me?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:48:22 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Jim Subject: I'm bad. I'm really bad. Message:

I'm going to Australia for a special conference on Free Speech on the Internet at a very posh resort. The trip was awarded to me through the email. At first I thought it was email spam, but it checked out. I think it was given to me for appreciation for battling Maharaji and his lawyers. Dettmers, Dettmers, Dettmers! That's all I hear. What about me? I, me, mine? Like I said, I will remove material relating to Ms. Ross. If I remove everything about Mr. Dettmers won't I be a revisionist as well. Is not some of that content still valid? Indeed, Michael Dettmers is decent human being - who am I to judge? But, was he not still head of a $100 million dollar Swiss Foundation that really, no matter how you want to slice it and dice it, was an integral part of Maharaji's corporate shell? I will accept that who I thought I saw at a program in the U.S. in the 90's was not Michael Dettmers. He says he was not. I am still suspicious, though, of what I see as evidence of continued networking with premies and premie owned companies. I find it interesting how on the Glylanix website that Dettmers removed all of the obvious premie connected companies that he did consulting for. I'm sorry, but that is suspicious to me. And I know that I have no business in telling Michael Dettmers or anyone else who their friends can be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, this will all have to wait until I get back from Diamond Rock Conference Centre in Australia.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 04:17:44 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: That's cute Message:

How much you get in for? My friend -- oops, maybe I shouldn't say that -- my, aheam, ACQUAINTANCE, says he paid upwards of $350 a day.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:58:38 (GMT) From: Forum Administrator Email: None To: Jim Subject: Nothing to deal with (yet) Message:

Jim, if Brian outed Roger on the Forum, I would delete the post. (How could I do otherwise after drafting guidelines below promising that course of action?) But he hasn't outed him - and I don't get the impression Brian was threatening to do it here rather than, say, pass on Roger's name by email or whatever - over which mode of communication I have zero jurisdiction. As things stand I don't see Brian has done anything more than you did when threatening to out Deputy God (oops, Freudian slip there!!) - and possibly less. Certainly nothing I see needing action on my part. Or have I missed something?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:33:12 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: FA, I think you have to deal with this (re Brian) Message:

Jim, Might I point out that you have threatened to out Deputy Dog on here a number of times? You also outed Keith by posting a private e-mail. You've also repeated a number of things in public that I told you in private WITHOUT asking my permission, even when I asked for your confidence. Your position about outing people, as you have stated, is that you are free to out someone -publically- if 'they piss you off'. If I felt that way, half the anon people on this forum might have been outed at one time or another. BTW, I doubt if Brian cares if he's blocked from the forum. You might want to arrange for someone else to do the work he's doing before you ask for that though. And, yes, asking J-M is a good idea - we've been talking to him for a few years about this (I'm not exaggerating).

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 07:59:02 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Katie Subject: Ask J-M what Katie? Message:

And, yes, asking J-M is a good idea - we've been talking to him for a few years about this (I'm not exaggerating). What did you ask me exactly? Ah, maybe I don't like having those stripes on my arm. Never liked that sort of honor. And I'm only French and doesn't understand Mike's sarcasm ..... I need to learn some more. Maybe one of these $ 350/day seminars. Maybe they'll make me a special discount if I cook for them? I can do great BBQs .....

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 14:56:49 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Ask J-M what Katie? Message:

Hi J-M - Jim thinks you should be the webmaster of ex-premie.org and said we should ask you about it - that's all. About sarcasm - sometimes I don't understand YOURS :). Maybe it's not a language thing - more cultural. I know I have gotten in trouble for not understanding some British humor here! Just wanted to say that I'm glad I wasn't on the streets of Paris while you were riding your bike with a cast on your foot! (My cast should be off next week, but I probably still won't answer the phone.) Take care & lots of love - Katie

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 17:02:14 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Katie Subject: It's going to itch!!! Message:

when you'll have your cast removed !! Not speaking of using your leg normally again!! Go to physiotherapist, that helps, and use a lot of cream and massages .... that's for Brian I guess !!!! It took me almost a year to have it back to completely normal.....

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 17:39:29 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I hope not! (ot) Message:

But at least I will be able to bend my ankle, and drive a car, and won't have to put three plastic bags over my leg when I take a shower :). What did you do to yours, JM? I have at least four fractures - one is in the third metatarsal and is relatively serious. The ligaments and tendons looked OK in the MRI, though. The doctor did tell me that it might even hurt for the rest of my life - that's what happens when you get old, I guess! I told my boss I can't do any strenuous work in the field for a while. I don't know if I am going to have physical therapy or not, but I suppose I'll find out.

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 06:30:35 (GMT) From: j of v Email: None To: Katie Subject: getting out of the cast (ot) Message:

katie, go to physical therapy no matter what, and make sure you get someone with very deft, strong hands to massage and pop out your 'frozen'metatarsals and make them move fluidly before you start a session. i broke my left tibia(shin) into three separate pieces , spirally, 5 years ago, going up from the heel to midway. i spent 6 months in a thigh cast. the immobility drove me nuts. i could feel the energy meridians wanting to course thru my leg and draw power back together, but the cast wouldnt let me move my foot or ankle at all. besides royally fucking up my balance and poise, it jammed my ankle bones into the wrong positions and they healed that way. the systems of levers and pivot points that allow the ankle to shift minutely to keep the weight of the body balanced was destroyed. when the cast came off, the first thing i did was get someone to thoroughly manipulate, pull, twist, pop, press, push and flex my ankle and foot. it was practically frozen in place. i never could get another workout like that. and i didnt make it to PT. i didnt find out where the offices were until it was too late. tips from one who's lived it? dont put on weight. your ankle will scream at you with every step. you can predict the weather from now on. if your bones start to hurt, guaranteed, theres weather coming in a day or two. forget high heels forever. likewise high heel boots. and dont be surprised if you cant point your toe down far enough to get on the pull-on, tight kind, any more. your realistic choices of footwear may be altered permanently. that said, when you start the PT, its gonna hurt, but its a good kind of hurt. i was a compulsive pusher with stretching. i wanted ALL my flexibility back, so i was merciless. whatever i didn't recover, was the fault of the stupid surgeon, who blew me off when i told him i knew the bones had slipped, and needed to be pulled out in traction. as it turned out, i was right, but it was too late to go back and fix it. my left leg is an inch shorter than my right, as a result. and all the consultations ive gone to come out to the same conclusion: if they go back in and rebreak it and reset it in traction, i will have to sacrifice things i have, right now, that will be unavoidable in the process. to wit--they would have to cut nerves i didnt harm in the accident. they would probably have to leave the thicker bone tissue that filled in the break, alone, and cause a new break, higher up, in order to stimulate growth enough to lengthen my shin back out to its correct measurement. and now that im in menopause, the quality of that bone growth would likely be of less density than what it was. so they all tell me to be thankful and just live with it. advice which i dont take to happily

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Date: Sat, Oct 14, 2000 at 08:03:01 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: j of v Subject: getting out of the cast (ot) Message:

Dear Janet - Thanks so much for your advice - I will take it. I think my orthopedist is pretty good - he does mostly sports medicine, so he's familiar with my type of injury. Sounds like your accident was FAR worse than mine. It also sounds like they should have put steel rods in your leg to stop the one leg shorter than the other thing (this is more expensive - maybe why they didn't do it?). I'm sorry that happened to you, but the alternatives do sound worse. I feel silly for complaining, because I've only had to be in a cast for about 7 weeks. And my cast is fairly loose so I can flex my foot/lower ankle (thank god - otherwise I'd be going nuts!) But I just hate being confined by anything - and I have real problems sleeping with the cast on (check time of this message - snicker!) Re footwear - I have never been able to wear high heels anyway (I fall off - literally), and I had ANOTHER foot injury (no, I'm not a Pisces!) on my other foot 10 years ago so learned how important it is to get decent shoes. Also, I can already predict the weather with one of my knees, so I know how that is. Take care (really like your posts, BTW!) Katie

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 20:17:32 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Katie Subject: Bending your ankle? Forget it! Message:

That might take a while. I've had a serious tendinitis of the achille's tendon. You'll need some time before using your foot and ankle correctly, but don't lose time . If you don't recover quickly, you'll never make it. That's why pysiotherapy is very useful .... maybe we can continue that conversation by email ....

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 18:49:20 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: What's your point, Katie? Message:

Forget about me for a moment, do you condone Brian's threat to out Roger? Yes or no?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 19:23:55 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Point? Message:

You changed the subject - do you realize that? Like Susan said, I don't think it's unethical in this case. I do not think Brian is wrong for offering to do it (and I should emphasize that he offered to do it privately.) Put it this way, Jim - if some anonymous premie wrote a bunch of insinuating and unverifiable stuff about you and your business on a web page, wouldn't you want to be able to confront them directly?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 21:28:36 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Katie Subject: Roger stating his misgivings Message:

Dear Katie, with a certain amount of trepidation, I am weighing into this thread because: The thing that I noticed was that in Roger being straightforward about his thinking, it gave Michael Dettmers a chance to be strainghtforward in answering Rogers questions and comments. We are all dealing with issues that can be very difficult to acknowledge and face, and I really enjoyed the interactions that have taken place through Michael Dettmers posting, (thanks to everyone involved), and I think it takes a lot of effort, and ploughing through disagreements sometimes. Hey, when I get too down, thinking about what a fool I have made of myself, and how much of a fool Maharaji made of me, I think, well, we were the cream of a generation, and in my estimation, a good hearted crew for the luxury yacht! Love Lesley.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:13:54 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: Roger stating his misgivings Message:

Hi Lesley - Well, I'm glad Michael answered Roger's post, and I give him a lot of credit for that, especially since the the way Roger phrased his misgivings was NOT in the form of questions. Instead, Roger sounded like someone who had already made up his mind about the 'facts' and was not going to listen. (I hope that's not true, by the way.) Straightforward or not, it is sometimes very difficult to respond to false allegations. In fact, many people don't do this, because it gives the accuser credibility. I have to deal with this at work, and have been advised NOT to do this on this by people who have been through it. I am sure I'd be doubly advised not to when the accuser is unwilling to confront me under their real name. Hey, when I get too down, thinking about what a fool I have made of myself, and how much of a fool Maharaji made of me, I think, well, we were the cream of a generation, and in my estimation, a good hearted crew for the luxury yacht. I agree that we were made fools of, but I give us all credit for risking that eventuality because we wanted something MORE out of life. That desire - and also the ability to want YET more when we realized it was an illusion - is why I relate to so many other ex-premies. Anyway, my point about Michael, which you probably don't need to hear, is that I feel that he should be treated with civility - just like any other ex-premie on here, and remembering that he was also ensnared in the same delusion that we were. Take care, Lesley - and thanks for your most clear-headed post (as usual). Love, Katie

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:44:02 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie, I think this is getting worked out.... Message:

Excuse my interjecting here, but I think this is all being blown way out of proportion. I tend to agree with Jim that the initial expose that Roger Drek put on his website was fair game because of what Michael had on his resume. The expose raised a lot of questions, and although it maybe was a little too satirical for my taste, it raised legitimate questions. Then, Mr. Dettmers appeared, and then he disappeared. Now he is back. I think in the course of the ongoing discussion, it will get straightened out one way or the other. Personally, I think Michael is being sincere and forthcoming, and I think Roger Drek will come to see that as well. I know who Roger Drek is and I think he's a reasonable person who really does want to be fair. I think he's just a little more cautious, but, frankly, I would have put money on the proposition that if Michael had shown up sooner and was discussing things the way he is now, Roger's satire of him would have already been removed. As I said, I think the forum is working, in that the interaction is happening and I think it will resolve those outstanding issues.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 04:09:44 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Joe Subject: a little too satirical for my tastes Message:

You had your chance, but instead it's got that Drekie feel to it. ;)

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:08:39 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Joe Subject: Well, I hope so... Message:

You know I respect your opinion on things, Joe, although I don't always agree with it :). Gotta go watch football! Katie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 22:25:18 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: NO Message:

Anyway, my point about Michael, which you probably don't need to hear, is that I feel that he should be treated with civility - just like any other ex-premie on here, and remembering that he was also ensnared in the same delusion that we were. Dettmers himself states that as early as 1974 he realized Goober was 'merely mortal.' He continued to represent him to others as some divine being for years afterwards. He made a career out of DECA and having managed a 'Swiss Foundation' worth tens of millions of dollars. He escaped with a golden parachute. He deserves to be pilloried. He is a deliberate accomplice.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 23:02:01 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: gerry Subject: You are very inflexible, Gerry Message:

You wrote: Dettmers himself states that as early as 1974 he realized Goober was 'merely mortal.' He continued to represent him to others as some divine being for years afterwards. I have heard MANY premies and ex-prmeies who were (and are) close to Maharaji say that they saw (and see) him both as 'merely mortal' AND as a divine being. If you read some of Michael's posts below, you will hear him say that it was a confusing situation. You wrote: He made a career out of DECA and having managed a 'Swiss Foundation' worth tens of millions of dollars. He escaped with a golden parachute. So what! So did KK. She got severance pay, in other words, although I do know if she had to sign a confidentiality agreement. She was able to go back to school and further her career with that money. I didn't see you attacking HER for this - rather MANY premies attacked her for 'stealing' money from Maharaji. You wrote: He deserves to be pilloried. He is a deliberate accomplice. Everything is not as black and white as you think, Gerry (or sometimes I think black and white alternate in your mind - take your continually changing attitude towards Jim, for example.) And I'm really tired of your constant crusades to 'expose' ex-premies who post on this forum as being secret premies. You seem to blow this off and 'change your mind' as soon as you find out that the person is REALLY an ex-premie, but you don't seem to understand how much you hurt people while you are going to town on one of these crusades. Why be so stubbornly opinionated when you have, in fact, changed your mind so many times in the past? It might be enjoyable for you to post these kinds of extreme things, but it's really not fun for other people to be the subject of them. Especially when you can revert to the opposite position so easily. It's not as easy for the rest of us to forget what you have said when in attack mode. Anyway, I said more in my post to you below.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 23:18:17 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: You are very inflexible, Gerry Message:

And I'm really tired of your constant crusades to 'expose' ex-premies who post on this forum as being secret premies. Constant? CONSTANT? This is a gross exageration. I never had a problem with KK. It is a poor comparison between her and dettmers. Apples and oranges. How can I be 'inflexible' and 'stubbornly opinionated' if I have the capacity to change my mind. Why bring up other people (KK and Jim) I was talking about dettmers. Isn't this the straw man fallacy? I stand by my statement: He was a deliberate accomplice who benefitted greatly from the fraud he helped perpetrate.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:12:14 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: gerry Subject: Concentrating on an irrelevance Message:

Gerry wrote: 'I stand by my statement: He was a deliberate accomplice who benefitted greatly from the fraud he helped perpetrate.' Gerry; even if Mike Dettmers was such an accomplice, what is to be gained from badgering him now? What is your aim? My aim is to expose Maharaji to all and sundry. Not to expose some premies or ex-premies but to expose the truth of Maharaji, as he is and was. If Mike Dettmers helps in some way to expose the reality of Maharaji's 'mission' and his true motives then it matters not a jot what Mike was or did in the past. I see no gain in trying to expose or 'bring to justice' Maharaji's followers. It's like concentrating on the irrelevant whilst ignoring the most important. And concentrating on the irrelevant can cause the most important thing to slip away from your grasp.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:31:32 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Irrelevance? Message:

What has Mike said that we didi not already new? Just becuase he came in and said some very well veresd speech, we all turned around an exposed of backside to him. So what if Goober walks into the forum and says something like: I know that I ripped you all off and made money. Really please leave me alone because all these mistakes were done and are part of the past, let's start a new page. What are you going to do? Let him be? Look at what you are saying. You want to bring Goober down, how you gonna do that, bring 100 exes to sit on the lear jet so it can not take off. Mike is part of it. If Goober goes, Mike goes. When the ship went down, most of us went with it. Mike and others like him floated because of Goober pulling them up and handing them life jackets. I am with Gerry on this one.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:31:13 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Salam Subject: Dumb? Message:

Salam, Put on your thinking cap, bud. It's not so much what Dettmers said, although that partly, but the fact that HE, former long-term right-hand man to the cult leader said them. If you can't see the significance of that, I'm amazed.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 04:09:49 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Flame me and my ancestors. Message:

long-term right-hand man to the cult leader Well it's Obvious, isn't it?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 04:14:53 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Salam Subject: Flame me and my ancestors. Message:

No, what's obvious?

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 04:48:58 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Have you had your Vitamins Today Jim Message:

I can not remember what was I talking about. Ah Mike. Ok. This is a bit hard to but down. I am not concerened with the fact that Mike as a person said something. He can say what he wants. The fact that Mike being in 'his' postion (as you describe it)saying something is different. Because the Onus is now on Mike, since what he said came from a position of empowring. i.e. Mike having done and said things that had the ability and potiential to change things for the benefit of maharaji, knowing with no doughts what the consequences are. That is the obvious part. p.s. I may have put things back to front. But I leave it to you to work it out. Anyway, must take the dog for a walk. Feel free to squeeze the last of it. Salam is the name, Logic is my game.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:27:02 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Oh you mean like Roger did with Joey? Message:

This is getting ridiculous. Remember how Joey was posting all this nonsense about Roger being a premie plant, sent by the cult to undermine the site with disinformation (i.e. the Dettmers stuff) and pronography? Remember how Roger revealed that Joey was posting from an internet cafe in Montreal and how you and Brian never let him hear the last of it? What are the REAL issues here? Roger has used Michael's own web advertising to ridicule and challenge him. As I've already stated elsewhere I don't share Roger's skepticism of Dettmers. Things change fairly dynamically around here but, for now, I'm quite satisfied that Michael's pretty much on the level. But that's only my view, Roger's entitled to his. What Brian's done here, however, is really, really unjustified. Mind you, it falls right into place with your attitude which is that no one, nowhere, need talk about anything if it makes them uncomfortable. Unless, of course, it's got to do with hurting kittens. Roger recently left the cult after a longer hitch than you, Brian and me put together. If he's got his reasons for both being very skeptical of some of Michael's information -- even if he's only got a sincere (and not completely crazy suspicion, like Joey) -- and of his ability to criticize Maharaji as he wishes without the protection of anonymity, that's his call. Brian's threat is all about chilling that kind of confrontation and forcing Roger to toe your line.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 20:56:35 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: That's your opinion Message:

Jim, this is a completely different situation - although you're good at twisting facts to make things appear differently than they are, or were. Good thing I've got a good memory. For example, in one of the threads below, you said that you got Mili kicked off his ISP for his false petition - you did not, you did it when he threatened David Stirling. And, although you now cast Mili's effort as a serious threat against ex-premie.org, remember how we thought the petition effort was really funny at the time because Mili got immediately put down AND compared to a Scientologist by the folks at usenet? And remember how Mili used MY name and e-mail address on the petition and how angry I was about that? Funny how you have forgotten these things. And I don't want to bring up the Joey-Mary-Roger situation again - something which nearly destroyed the forum as it is - and I doubt if Joey, Mary, Roger or even you would like me to bring it up. You came out looking good on that on the forum, but we both know what really happened to change your mind, and how MUCH you believed in someone who was lying to you. You're entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to express it as vehemently as you want. (Brian doesn't read any posts from 'Jim' so you won't get a response from him, by the way). However, although you are entitled to YOUR opinion, you have consistently distorted and miquoted me in order to mislead people about what I think and feel. For example, you wrote and this is just in THIS post: (I could come up with many, many examples from your previous posts. I usually don't respond because I feel that people here are intelligent enough to see through your distortions of reality). Mind you, it falls right into place with your attitude which is that no one, nowhere, need talk about anything if it makes them uncomfortable. Unless, of course, it's got to do with hurting kittens. You've got to be fucking kidding if you think I believe this. In fact, I don't think you believe it, you just want other people to believe it. Face it, Jim, you just plain don't like ME or Brian, and you'd like to discredit anything we say - even to the extent of telling people that Brian is an ignorant and uneducated taxi driver and as thus has no credibility. (You are a real snob regarding formal education and white v.s. blue collar workers - that's been proven often on this forum). I think this personal vendetta has become fairly obvious, and obviously tiresome, to most members of this forum. Say what you want, Jim - but I'd very much appreciate it if you would quit posting your false 'interpretations' of MY opinions and feelings.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 21:14:41 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: You're right about one thing, I guess Message:

I thought it was over the petition but, now that you mention it, I guess it was over Mili threatening David Stirling. Katie, you talk about how much I dislike you two but all you have to do is recall what Brian posted about a) how this was HIS forum adn I was just like some loudmouth drunk at a bar -- HIS bar; and b) how he used to respect me, until, that is, he 'learned a better way ....' Remember any of that? Huh? Brian wouldn't have even been webmaster if it weren't for me and I guess that was something that always bothered him. So now he's 'grown' (remember the post?) to the extent that he no longer has to read anything with my name on it. Fine. We all need to 'grow' in life and if I'm just a measure of how far he's come in such a short, short time, so be it. Glad to be of service.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 21:59:22 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: You're mistaken about a few more things, Jim Message:

First, you wrote: Katie, you talk about how much I dislike you two but all you have to do is recall what Brian posted about a) how this was HIS forum adn I was just like some loudmouth drunk at a bar -- HIS bar; and b) how he used to respect me, until, that is, he 'learned a better way ....' So what? Roger has said FAR worse things about me, and I have been able to mend fences with him. And, more relevantly, I don't see why something that Brian said about you should reflect on ME. Just like you, he's allowed to post whatever he thinks at the time. And as I've pointed out to you repeatedly (and you have repeatedly made fun of) - I am not Brian. Does Laurie agree with everything YOU do or say? If not, does she criticize you in public? You have assumed both these things about me - first, that I agree with everything Brian says, and second, that if I don't, I'm OBLIGATED to criticize him in public. The first agreement that Brian and I made when we agreed to be co-webmasters is that we would not criticize each other in public. The FA's right now have made the same agreement, and I think it's vital to the stability of this site and forum. But, returning to those statements Brian made about you, Jim, at this point, I agree with those things he said, although I didn't agree with them at the time he said them. And believe me, I am a stubborn person and it takes a lot to change my mind. But your constant ridicule of me, distortion of my views, and your complete lack of respect for me have changed my mind about this. We are supposed to be on the same side here, yet you often seem far more interested in scoring points off me than you do in posting about Maharaji. And, yes, I do take this personally, because many people here have expressed similar feelings to those I've expressed, and you don't attack them in the same way. The only thing you have EVER done for ex-premie.org is give some money at the beginning (and constantly remind us all of that, like it gives you some right to dictate what happens here), and constant posting on the forum. Yet you continually badger the FA's and the webmasters to 'do this' and 'do that'. You have always criticized the way this forum and site are managed - either the FA's are too strict or too lax. You obviously have a lot of free time - as shown by the amount and length of your posts on this forum, yet you have never offered to assist in the management of the forum or site in any way. You oughta try it some time - you might be more sympathetic to the people who really do it. I don't know if I'd make the drunk on the barstool comparison, but the words 'sidewalk superintendent' come to mind. As I have repeatedly said, I have heard from many people who have said your posts have helped them. That's the truth. However, you have NEVER been able to admit that my posts might have helped people, and have always sought to discredit me or ridicule me. That, IMHO, is a personal vendetta. You also wrote: Brian wouldn't have even been webmaster if it weren't for me and I guess that was something that always bothered him. You are the only person who has ever said that, and frankly, I think you are deluded in thinking this. None of the other people who were responsible for finding a new webmaster have ever confirmed this. I guess you believe it, but I don't think this is correct. Do you recall who the other choice for webmaster was way back then? ME. I had already been helping David Stirling and he really wanted me to do it, because we'd worked together. I know that you felt that ANYONE would be preferable to ME (because I was too 'nice'), so I don't give you a lot of credit for being a king-maker here. And as it happens, David (who had the final choice, if you recall) transferred the webmastership to BOTH Brian and I, with the stipulation that we would work together. So your idea that Brian 'resents' you because you crowned him webmaster is completely off the wall. Your personal attacks on both me and Brian have NOTHING to do with the purpose of this website. They are personal, not political - and I feel that they are distracting and irrelevant, not to mention downright divisive. I have held off on engaging you many times in the past, both because I wanted to present a united front, and because I know people really don't like to read this stuff. But I am REALLY sick of being ridiculed, condescended to, and misquoted for your own purposes when I am just as much of an ex-premie as you are.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 00:50:38 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Sorry, hon, you're wrong Message:

Well, as far as Brian 'getting the job', yeah that was because I gave him the thumbs up to David Stirling. That's what happened. David approached me asking what to do. He told me that Brian had asked to take over, really wanted to, in fact, and wondered what I thought. I said sure. And you know why? Honestly? Because I felt sorry for Brian. You know, isolated, no furniture, you know. He didn't say he was lonely but I kind of thought he was anyway. Of course it wasn't JUST that. I liked Brian then. And he seemed smart and certainly into it. But then I didn't realize what an uptight, pompous prick Brian could be. But whatever, small point. So you're not Brian, huh? Then what the fuck are you doing right now, Katie, but posting as his proxy? Oh, I forgot, Brian doesn't even READ my posts so I guess he needs someone like you to mix it up with snakes like me after he's made some grand pronouncement.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:20:33 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Jim Subject: I know it's a full moon and everything.. Message:

..but you're not making a scrap of sense to me tonight, Jim. I have been here three years but don't read every post, so maybe I've missed crucial details along the way. It's like trying to work out what Dawkins and Gould are fighting about while I see no serious issues or sources of conflict on the table.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:03:40 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey Jim, why so personal re Brian? Message:

I also thought Brian's post down below was sanctimonious. I also found it insulting. For one thing, it lumps everbody on this forum as being of a single mindset and that's just not fair. I personally can't fathom where Brian is coming from, and I certainly don't agree with outing anyone. Okay, so maybe you are being unjustly attacked. But I'm not hearing Katie or Brian make comments about your personal life. That comment about Brian and you 'feeling sorry' for him, and the earlier one about Katie and Brian's relationship are, well, mean.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:09:11 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe, I'm stooping low, yes, I know Message:

I guess it's because I looked closely at that bullshit from Brian below and determined that it was all about me. Take a look. He's talking about this ugly, 'vocal minority' but this is what he says about 'them': Conversations that you have with these people will continue to be posted here by them. Who else could that refer to but me? Sorry Joe, sorry everyone. But enough's enough. I'm not a drunk and I'm not Robespierre. Etc., etc., etc.!

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:16:20 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Not Everything is about you, Jim.... Message:

Sorry, just had to say that, because you used to always say it to Selene. ::)) I dunno. He might be talking about me, too. It's hard to tell and that's the problem. Here is what I think. I HATE, HATE, HATE, when people make negative, broad-brush statements about this forum and about the people on it, when, in reality, they have problems with one or two people, and instead of dealing with them, they condemn everyone. I HATE that. It makes me nuts. But I have to hand it to Katie, whom I respect enormously, that she does stand up to YOU Jim. Whether you agree with her or not, the girl has spunk, and brains, and is very articulate. Maybe you, Brian and Katie don't get along because you are so much alike in those qualities.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:16:10 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Not everything, no Message:

I dunno. He might be talking about me, too. It's hard to tell and that's the problem. I think that in the context Brian could only have been speaking about me. Me or Selene, I mean. :) No, really, if you read his post again, it's pretty clear who he's targetting. Mind you, I tried to reply to him directly. Read my post. I was trying to be civil and everything. That was before Katie explained that Brian doesn't read anything I write. Here's the thing, Joe and Nigel. Brian never dealt with me again after his 'This-page-is-mine' outburst. Or maybe he did. Maybe I've got the timing wrong. Was that post of his before or after his 'Boy-have-I-grown-and-Boy-has-Jim-turned-into-a-stunted-shrew-of-hatred-(thank-you-for-opening-my-eyes-Miss-Katie!)' post? Remember that one? Take yet another look at Brian's post. He deserved everything he got. But, of course, he'll never know what I said unless Katie reads it to him. Okay, now isn't this lovely? Sorry.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:39:06 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jim Subject: it's not about me this time Jim Message:

at least I don't think so. And I don't think it was ALL about you either. Just some :) But really I don't even know who most of the people are here, much less what they are intending when they post. Took almost 3 years for me to figure that out.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 03:47:07 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Selene Subject: Oh yeah? Message:

No, I know. I was just kidding a bit. But, yeah, Selene, it was enough about me that I feel justified defending myself.

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 01:34:27 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Joe Subject: I agree, Joe.. Message:

Here is what I think. I HATE, HATE, HATE, when people make negative, broad-brush statements about this forum and about the people on it, when, in reality, they have problems with one or two people, and instead of dealing with them, they condemn everyone. I HATE that. It makes me nuts. And when people do that, the poster concerned (usually a premie) fails to notice that they too are a forum participant. 'My thoughts about the rest of you' posts are a perpetual source of irriation to me too. Anyone who posts is part of the scrum. Those who try to stand apart whilst commenting on the rest invariably get egg their faces. (And I might have done it in my time - but it still looks sanctimonious and gets so boring..)

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