Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 20:59:31 (GMT)
From: Oct 13, 2000 To: Oct 20, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


Michael Dettmers -:- I've been warned -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 20:04:55 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Blackmail -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:09:00 (GMT)
__ __ Bjørn -:- Re Blackmail and concepts -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:09:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- KNOCK IT OFF!!!!! -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 17:30:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- I WILL STOP. -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:15:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I Sure As Hell Hope So -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:45:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Bjorn's 'memory surge' -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 16:37:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Uh, Gerry -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:40:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Uh, Kathie (snicker) -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 20:22:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- wrong Bjorn -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:37:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Susan -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:44:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- You are proving I was right to remain silent -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 22:04:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Re your silence to an innocent man -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 22:53:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Bjorn, PLEASE stop this -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 12:21:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- And Bjorn... (FA's please read this!) -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 12:35:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- And Kathie... -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:57:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- And Kathie... -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 15:15:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Jeezuz, I WAS right about Bjorn -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:04:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Harsh Comments -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:32:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Harsh Comments -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:02:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Harsh Comments -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:59:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Harsh Comments -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:09:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- You really are a sad fucker, -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:55:45 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- You're gay??!! (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:54:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- And you thought you were the only one.... -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:47:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Touche! .... er, hm, no, take that back! -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:01:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Just pointing out the gratuitous comment, Jim(nt) -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 05:48:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Just pointing out the gratuitous comment, Jim(nt) -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:07:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- the only one... ? I thought there was only ONE ... -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 18:26:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- okay CoQ au vin -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:30:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- You mean I've cooked my goose? -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:36:31 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- great post Joe (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:15:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- great posts Joe and Michael (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:25:03 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- I've been warned -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:05:19 (GMT)
__ __ [edited] -:- [edited] -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 10:58:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ [edited] -:- [edited] -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:10:11 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- I've been warned -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 17:54:36 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- On my own scale of human decency... -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:05:57 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Yves, please dont post till after coffee.-nt -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:54:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Yves -:- Sfghs yourself -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:57:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- cmon Yves, -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 01:43:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- Thanks for the compliment. Did you get the joke? -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:40:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Thanks for the compliment. Did you get the joke? -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:11:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- That being cleared, I love to argue. -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:00:22 (GMT)
__ U2? -:- It's a beautiful day. -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 11:04:11 (GMT)
__ Bjørn -:- Please explain to me, Micheal -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 10:36:56 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- God, Bjorn! -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:29:43 (GMT)
__ __ billorn -:- I disagree. -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 13:05:17 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- wow. -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 03:41:35 (GMT)
__ __ bill (b) -:- 'wow!' was my first response also. -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 08:12:33 (GMT)
__ A Friend -:- 25 Richest Premies in N. America 1976 -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 03:17:30 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- 25 Richest Premies in N. America 1976 -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 11:12:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ A Friend -:- 25 Richest Premies in N. America 1976 -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:29:55 (GMT)
__ __ me -:- charanand finds it funny in 1994 -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 07:06:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ A Friend -:- charanand finds it funny in 1994 -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:25:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ me -:- charanand finds it funny in 1994 -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 01:48:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ A Friend -:- Belkis is female - silly! -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:37:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Is this you, Bill? (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:20:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ A Friend -:- charanand finds it funny in 1994 -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:16:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Seeing through Charanand was a big drip for me -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:02:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- What's your number? I'll call nt -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:20:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What's your number? I'll call nt -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:03:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Good conversation -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 06:50:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Whatever, Carol! WhatEVER....... -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 14:46:06 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- I've been warned...your courage is inspiring.... -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:27:01 (GMT)
__ __ michael Dettmers -:- I've been warned...your courage is inspiring.... -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 14:35:56 (GMT)
__ Anon -:- I've been warned -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:13:47 (GMT)
__ __ Carol -:- I agree, multiply. -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:16:01 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- I've been warned -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:04:46 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- questioning the unquestionable -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:46:17 (GMT)
__ Bjørn -:- Guess what. -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:44:11 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Admistrator -:- Guess what. -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:59:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bjørn -:- Thanks FA -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:15:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- what are you talking about Bjorn?! -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:34:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- I am just feeling Kathie! -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:05:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Try Vitamin C -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:15:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- you are? tsk tsk take that stuff over to AG -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:17:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- you are? tsk tsk take that stuff over to AG -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 06:52:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- I got a reply to one today...maybe there is a good -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 06:53:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- probably there is several reasons why Michael -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 11:16:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Your brain is useless, Bjorn -- sell it for parts -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:00:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- exposes himself what way? -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:52:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The only 'exposure' is Bjorn's -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:06:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Truman Show it is -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:15:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Bjorn, you are thicker than wood -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:39:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'Norwegian Wood' = compliment! (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 17:40:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- cute (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 06:03:26 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- the dogs, the beautiful day -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:30:21 (GMT)
__ P-man -:- very impressive nt -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:35:32 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Hear! Hear! nt -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 12:43:57 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- I've been warned -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:32:04 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- I love you, Mike -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:03:27 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- I love you, Mike -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:22:18 (GMT)
__ __ Jim uses the 'L' word! -:- EV doesn't 'endorse'. Look at jagdeo-nt -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 07:12:04 (GMT)
__ janet of venice -:- MICHAEL,I STAND AND SALUTE YOU.HONORS TO YOU. -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 20:53:13 (GMT)
__ __ Yves -:- Warning: this is getting unanimous. -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:32:23 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Who is Bill Murray - anybody..? -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 20:33:38 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Who is Bill Murray - anybody..? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:23:12 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- It's Murrray, not Murray (likely a pseudonym) nt. -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:26:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- 'Murrray', NOT 'Murray' ...? - bewildered.. -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:43:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Perhaps he couldn't get an email account... -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 07:09:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Aha! - the three 'r's - I get you... -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:50:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- It's a trrroll (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:27:50 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- Who is anybody? -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:30:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ gErRy -:- I still say he's a premie... -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:32:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I still say he's a premie... -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:36:42 (GMT)

Bobby -:- ot: Christian Coaltion Path to Victory 2000 -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 20:02:28 (GMT)
__ ExTex -:- Thanks. -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 05:23:44 (GMT)

Bobby -:- to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 18:25:45 (GMT)
__ shp -:- to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 12:15:57 (GMT)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- A long response -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:20:22 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- That makes sense. On the other hand... -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:42:34 (GMT)
__ __ Bobby -:- A long response -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:59:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Another response -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 03:42:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Another response -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 22:58:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Another response -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 11:14:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Another response -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:57:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- You made me laugh, again!!! Thanks -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:02:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- You made me laugh, again!!! Thanks -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:09:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Wow, gee, shucks, thanks! -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 07:34:37 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:06:46 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- experiencing mortality -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:21:13 (GMT)
__ __ Carol -:- experiencing mortality -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:12:09 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- experiencing mortality -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 17:47:34 (GMT)
__ janet of venice -:- to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 20:34:52 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:14:21 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Wow! You hit paydirt with that one, Bobby -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:27:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bobby -:- my reply to you -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:09:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bobby -:- .....and you know what? -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:29:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JC -:- you sound more like 'an eye for an eye' -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:11:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Look at it this way, Bobby -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:45:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Buddhism's new age ?????? nt -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 07:35:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- Look at it this way, Bobby -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:06:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Look at it this way, Bobby -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:08:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Just a little 'Me too' and... -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:24:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- Look at it this way, Bobby -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:55:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- flames and all -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:22:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- griefwork,aftershock,wanting to know -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 04:54:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- griefwork,aftershock,wanting to know -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:37:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- no fiction. it's all true. weep freely-i did -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 07:00:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- whew glad you posted that -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:58:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Know what you you mean, dearie -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 14:49:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- ot: speculations on death -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:17:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- it all helps thanks Bobby -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:31:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Grief *is* exhausting -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:18:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks Helen -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:25:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Grief, etc (ot) -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:00:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- flames and all -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:37:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Near death experiences -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:05:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well, I'm honoured, I guess (??) -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:22:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Bobby's original question was great -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:25:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That wasn't the one I was ridiculing, Sherlock (nt -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:30:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Oh, I get it, you were ridiculing Janet, not Bobby -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:51:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- you will be given a life review, not punishment -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:35:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- It'll be like a bad B movie then -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:42:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- So THAT's how it works! -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:42:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- So THAT's how it works! -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:56:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Helen? -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:48:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- On this occasion, she's right, Jim... -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:13:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, sure, Nige, anything you say -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:19:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Reply coming soon.. (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:45:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What does 'soon' mean? (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 00:30:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- When I'm good and ready! -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:04:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet of venice -:- shall he and I make our chats public, here?? -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:08:29 (GMT)
__ __ Bobby -:- thanks Janet! -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:05:43 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 18:45:02 (GMT)

Wish -:- What was the big deal about GRATITUDE? -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 18:18:14 (GMT)
__ Bobby -:- What was the big deal about GRATITUDE? -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 19:18:34 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You're right -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 18:28:51 (GMT)
__ __ janet of venice -:- could rajaji be our fifth column? -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:16:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- could rajaji be our fifth column? -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 08:04:29 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Thoughts On Persuasion And Influence -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 17:58:15 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- What does University Economics tell you -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:02:38 (GMT)

Jim -:- Imagine being the editor of ELK -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 17:28:20 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Imagine being Ivette. nt -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 20:17:49 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- Cannot do that. nt -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:37:43 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Time Is Up -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 14:33:07 (GMT)
__ Forum Administrator -:- Friendly request -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 16:51:50 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- No Fucking Way M Is Human -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 08:48:45 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Steve, do you have to do this? -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 16:47:04 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 20:04:55 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Everyone
Subject: I've been warned
Message:
I have received my first warning, no make that “threat”, from the pro-Maharaji camp. Here it is:

From: MurrrayB@netscape.net [mailto:MurrrayB@netscape.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2000 2:01 AM
To: info@gylanix.com
Subject: warning

Mike
Warning. Stop trashing M online. .
One more negative posting and within one week, MRC (MichaelDettmers
Responsibility Campaign) site is online.
CONTENTS of SITE
Photos of Michael: yesterday and today
Premie testimonials about Michael:
Michael the embezzler
Michael the manipulator
Michael's lavish ashram lifestyle.
Why Maharajji got rid of Michael.
Michael at OGM and Execucorp.
Michael's power trips and elitism.
Michael the phony consultant.
AND A LOT MORE... SURPRISE...SURPRISE.....
Site to be registered with 200 search engines.
Take it easy, real easy
Bill M.

I received this e-mail just as I was about to respond to a couple of questions posted by hamzen on Friday. His first question concerned my own process of coming to terms with the wasted time and effort I spent in Maharaji’s cult. I am considering responding to this question within the context of writing my personal journey as Katie has suggested. Let me acknowledge, however, what should be obvious to regular readers of the Forum. Since I began posting last April, something has clearly shifted in the tone, and content of my posts. The question is, why?

Over the past six months I have had an opportunity to speak with a number of ex-premies who contacted me after I began posting. Some of the conversations were very confronting but I benefited from listening from my heart to the pointed questions about Maharaji, and people’s overwhelming sense of betrayal as well as the anger, disillusionment and difficulty many people have had in trying to come to grips with (and may still be coming to grips with) in their journey out of the cult.

That, coupled with my disgust with Maharaji and Élan Vital’s handling of the Jagdeo matter, has compelled me to speak out. You may recall that Marcia Leitner, a member of the Élan Vital Board of Directors, was given the task of responding to my query. Although Marcia was always very polite, professional and sensitive to the issue in her conversations with me, it was clear that she had to toe the party line. I suspect that that must have been very difficult for her because, as a woman and as a lawyer who handles workplace issues such as sexual harassment, she knows how serious the issue of child abuse is, and I would be very surprised if she didn’t believe that Susan was telling the truth, although of, course, she could never acknowledge that. Yet what did Élan Vital really do about this situation? In effect, nothing.

Maharaji never directly confronted Jagdeo and asked him point blank if the accusations were true. No, instead, that was left up to the National Organizer of India (not Sampurnanand by the way). And, guess what? Jagdeo denied everything. I am willing to bet that Maharaji would have gotten a different answer – never underestimate the amount of fear that he engenders in everyone who is close to him or functions in an important position, especially the mahatmas from India. The final straw was Jean-Michel’s report that Jagdeo was seen sitting with the mahatmas at a recent program in India. Maharaji and Élan Vital had an opportunity to do the right thing, but instead chose to do the safe thing.

Now I am being “warned” to do the safe thing as well. Back–off, they say, or we will make the lies that were spread about you on the ex-premie websites seem like kids play by comparison. Your playing with the “Boss” now Michael not some ex-premie losers. Well here’s what I have to say: “Fuck you, Bill M. or whoever you are. Go ahead and post whatever you want to.“ If I am going to be pilloried in the court of public opinion, I would much rather be known as someone who come down on the side of those who exposed Maharaji and his cult for what it is, than to be thought of as the apologist whose silence was bought and paid for.

When Roger posted his expose of me, I was angry and offended. But, in some ways, it was a blessing in disguise. It helped me wake my up to my own bullshit. Who knows maybe Bill M’s will do more of the same. In an odd way, being exposed by lies, slander, as well as some unpleasant truths about myself is liberating. Anyhow, it’s a beautiful day today and I’m about to take my dogs for a walk. More to come later.

Michael

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:09:00 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Blackmail
Message:
Michael,

It seems to me that I recall a 'Bill Murray' who was some kind of DLM/DV honcho, but that was a long time ago, so I could be wrong. I can't imagine that a weasel like that would use his or her own name, though. People who blackmail are notorious cowards. They operate in the shadows.

Frankly, I can't quite figure out what Bill Murray fears you might say that hasn't already been said. I guess you just might have more credibility having been around Maharaji more than many of the rest of us. I think the pictures of Maharaji on this website and the simple recitation of what happened in the cult, especially in light of Maharaji's attempt to re-write the past, a la George Orwell, is plenty damning.

It seems that silence is Maharaji's big defense, although a highly ineffective one. Just pretend it didn't happen, and instill enough fear in your followers of ever saying anything. And I agree with Anon, the motivation really is fear.

Plus, the truth brought up to the light of day is lethal to Maharaji and I think many of the premies know it. They want to keep the cult, and their extremely fragile belief system going and they fear that information will kill it, and they are probably right. I'm not sure how calculated Maharaji is about this, although given that Elan Vital wouldn't have published those lying and disgraceful FAQs on the Elan Vital website without his approval, he seems directly participating in the deceit and cover-up.

On the other hand, ex-premies, once they get out of the Maharaji cult, often have an insatiable NEED for the information they were denied while in teh cult. Once you don't fear Maharaji anymore, you really want to see the information and that really helps you figure out what was really going on, and it helps people incorporate the cult experience and move on with productive lives.

But I am really envious, Michael. I have been posting around here for a couple of years, and nobody has ever threatened me with anything. Sad, really. I was hoping they could do better than that. I guess I just don't rate.

But this can go both ways. For example, I knew Marcia Leitner in the Maharaji cult. I served with Marcia Leitner in Divine Light Mission, and although I can't say Marcia was ever a friend of mine, based on her swallowing her morals and ethics and towing the Elan Vital line, I can say she is no Jack Kennedy. ::)) She is certainly NOT a Profile in Courage, that's for sure. But given that Marcia is still operating in the cult, she is still operating under a lot of fear. Especially fear of displeasing or causing some difficulties for Maharaji. The thought of that feeling, which I recall myself, gives me the creeps. It is just so destructive to the human spirit.

But I can't imagine that Marcia Leitner would like it known that she is on the board of directors of an organization that harbors child molestors. There are also lots of other premies who hide the fact that they ARE premies from their operations in the real world. Or at least they hide what being a premie means, what they really believe, and the worst of all, and the most embarrassing and difficult for most premies to explain, they hide the way Maharaji is, what is past is, how he lives an obscenely extravagant lifestyle, the fact that they worship him, and the rotten, uncarring things he has done to people, for which he will not accept any responsibility. Really, they hide the fact that they are in a personality cult that most normal thinking people would find repulsive. People like 'Bill Murray' probably don't want THAT known either.

And I know what you mean about how laying out everything is so freeing and how the truth is so liberating. Maybe this isn't completely analogous, but as a gay man, I know this is an issue that many gay people live with through their lives. They can stay in the closet and be subject to blackmail at any time, and also they have to continually hide who they are. It's a really terrible tway to live, but coming out can be so terrifying. But then, when you do, you are free. You are who you are, and that's it. No one can blackmail you anymore, and you can be yourself. It's a much more powerful position.

Joe

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:09:50 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re Blackmail and concepts
Message:
Hi Joe
I hope you could try to read this post as it was written by a non premie.

Today I had my first consultations with a terapist. We discussed a lot of things, and I told her about one of the reasons I had come. I told her about all the things that happened to me which made me depressed. I told her about a comment I made here at the Forum, which made people jump at me and call me a pedophile. However much I denied this, the accusations went on. And I told her aboout the depresions I had this year also due to the remembrance that I was myself a victim of pedophily as a kid.

In my consultations I also discussed about pedophiles. As expected she said that pedophily is something some people have. And she confirmed that there are different levels of pedophiles. Some people touch kids, some pedophiles probably stay a 'virgin' all their life. Some people have sex with kids. And some people rape kids.

In the same way, it is with gays. And with hetreo.
In this different shades of grey (rapist till 'virgin'), from what I understood from Susan, Jagdeo is probably in the area of being a 'virgin' to be a 'toucher'.

Would you consider your statement re an organisation 'But I can't imagine that Marcia Leitner would like it known that she is on the board of directors of an organization that harbors child molestors' to be a bit harsh - or out of place?

I sometimes remember when I was a kid. At that time, gay people were almost regarded as sick people as well as criminal. I think they actually were considered to sexually abuse kids. Thus blackmailing happened. Thus behaviour like pedophiles experience today happened.

I dont try to excuse pedophhiles. I've said in my opinion they should be put under medical treatment or in jail. But I mean one has to distinguish between a person who has a desire, and a person who does a criminal act. And I suppose as my tereapist confirmed today, those who have this sexual desire, it makes no sense for really jugding them. And has not the jugdemental attitude destroyed already more than it had gained?

You are from one sexual miniority. I suppose you know the history and the tragdedy to be an unaccepted person in the society due to your sexual tendencies. I kind of find it strange that people belonging to one sexual minority, are so jugdmental of even those who belong to another sexual minority.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 17:30:27 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: KNOCK IT OFF!!!!!
Message:
Bjorn,

First, I have to say you are the most ignorant person I have encountered in a long time. You need to do some research re: pedophiles, incest perpetrators, etc. There is a wide range of sex offenders out there and most (about 95%) are white heterosexual males. You should be very careful about spouting your mouth off about things you know NOTHING about! Your persistance is insulting and injurious to everyone here.

You don't belong here. This is not a forum for healing from child sexual abuse. It's YOU'RE responsibility to get some help, (which btw, I don't believe you did).

This forum is not about you, nor is is FOR you. What you have said in your posts is beyond ignorant--it's plain mean. Just as I was starting to believe you are not a pedophile, now I am reconsidering. You seem to have that same mental set that sex offenders have: denial, a huge 'pity-me' attitude, and a clear indifference to victims. Dare I say sociopathic???

Yet you persist in making clearly untrue remarks which hurt others here who were abused by men in power in the cult. STOP IT NOW!!! You have no right to spread myths about this issue, get a fucking book and read about this subject before you say anymore.

By the way, children DO FORGET about sex abuse. Stop posting here, you are a sickening person. FA, please do something about this character.

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:15:30 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I WILL STOP.
Message:
I will stop posting here. How is it possible to fight lies?

The name of my terapist is Liv Haugen, phone number can be given. My next consultation is 24th of oct.

You might call me ignorant of pedophily, but I dare say, so are others. But at least I have first hand experience of being a victim. BTW watch 'American Beauty'. If you read Gerrys comments about this movie, it might have given you a clue.

In most of my posts and in my correspondance to Susan and to Anth I did stress the importance to first of all to take care of the victims. I still think so. In my fatal post which was twisted by a lot of ex-premies, was BTW a reply to you, I stated there to be an victim my self. It was told I just made this up afterwards. The tread was about Jagdeo and other stuff.

If I have by my posting here hurt anyone, I regret it and I am terrible sorry. I suppose I am just a volnerable guy and for me this whole thing has been a nightmare.

I have mailed the FA, if I ever for some reason will not follow Maharaji anymore, I will sue this Forum and Gerry. That is not a treat, it is a promise,


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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:45:29 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: I Sure As Hell Hope So
Message:
Bjorn:

Your statement, ...if I ever for some reason will not follow Maharaji anymore, I will sue this Forum and Gerry,'reveals you to be a classic victimizer posing as a victim, certainly not my favorite personality type.

Do yourself a favor and get rid of your computer and continue to see your therapist. You both have your work cut out for you, that's for sure.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 16:37:56 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Bjorn's 'memory surge'
Message:
Here's what's so fake about bjorn's clain to have been molested as a child. He said he had no memory of this until he came to this forum and was confronted.

I say this is simply a lie. If you are molested as a child, you don't forget it.

As for pedophiles being merely a sexual minority similiar to being gay, I can not think of anything more reprehensible and untrue as that statement.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:40:00 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Uh, Gerry
Message:
I agree with your last statement, but not your first. It is true that children, or even teenagers, who are sexually abused often forget.

When we were both very young teenagers, my sister had a sexually related encounter initiated by an adult. She TOLD me about the incident at the time (and at the time, neither of us knew anyone else that we could trust to tell about it.) She then repressed the memory and spent several years in therapy trying to uncover it - she finally did.

My brother has had the same problem with repressing memories of physical abuse - he told both me and my sister at the times these abuses happened, but 'can't remember' it now, although he will take our word for it. This is a really sad situation, by the way.

I don't really want to talk about this because it's upsetting to me, but I did want to tell you that it can and does happen.

Katie

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 20:22:21 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Uh, Kathie (snicker)
Message:
Thanks.

I did a quick search and here's the first thing I came up with:

First, it's important to state that there is a consensus among memory researchers and clinicians that most people who were sexually abused as children remember all or part of what happened to them although they may not fully understand or disclose it.

Of course, 'most' isn't all. I gotta go, but I'm definitely gonna look into this subject some more.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:37:36 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: wrong Bjorn
Message:
That is all that happened to me, much worse happened to the other victims. And I reported, from the start, that much worse had happened to other girls.

Are you somehow trying to imply that being a child molester is like being gay? That is revolting.

I am not going to go into the details of the molestation of the other girls, but much worse happened, they were much younger than I was.

Your post is revolting and insulting.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:44:32 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Susan
Message:
I never inteded to insult you.

But where were you when I as a victim over and over again was falsely accused of being a pedophile? In our correspondance you believed me, and you said nothing! Not even once. I was kicked and kicked, and you were silent.

I dont know the truth about Jagdeo. The truth about what happened to you and Abi you have told me. The truth about other things I would say only Jagdeo and the victims will know. But in our correspondance I got the picture that no sexual intercourse took place with the other victims.

I do not in any way mean to imply that being a child molester is like being gay? But I remember when I was a kid, I never heard the word pedophile, But we were told that homosexuals did sexual things to children. If someone gave candies to cildren in our street, people said he was a homosexual.

Bye

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 22:04:43 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: You are proving I was right to remain silent
Message:
You have said so many sick things here on this subject and now you are somehow that if molestation doesn't include intercourse there is no 'harm'??

You know, I should not even respond to you. You do not deserve it.

Good luck to your therapist.

Please go away.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 22:53:42 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re your silence to an innocent man
Message:
I am also reffering to a a program I watched on TV and one person with a lot of experience, said excactly that. His words was something like this: Sometimes a person gets a hard on in the company of a child(is that the expression)- And no harm is actually done. And sometimes there are accusations of sexual abus of such cases, and it turns to be a big mess by some overeager lawyers and health personell. What this bloke said, when this process start, the child or person really becomes a victim.'

I never said or meant that no harm might be done if there is no intercourse: But it does not need to (the bloke said)
But the intercourse part is what people think about, when the word pedophile is mentioned,

I also think that touching a child might be harmful. Bur not nessessary.

But I definitely think intercourse is a lot worse and sickening.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 12:21:26 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Bjorn, PLEASE stop this
Message:
I understand what you are referring to in the above posts and in your talk with your therapist, but THIS IS NOT WHAT SUSAN AND ABI ARE TALKING ABOUT. You obviously have no idea of the extent of what Jagdeo did to Abi, or else you are deliberately trying to minimize it. I know her story is told on one of Sir David's pages, and I have heard it via personal e-mail as well.

You wrote:
But the intercourse part is what people think about, when the word pedophile is mentioned.

This is not true, although it may be what YOU think about. Please, PLEASE, stop making excuses for Jagdeo's behavior based on the fact that you think actual intercourse did not take place. Can you imagine how this must feel to the women who were actually abused by him? It makes me pretty sick that you would try and exconerate Jagdeo in this way.

I know you were abused personally, but that doesn't mean you are qualified to comment on whether other children who were sexually abused got 'hurt' or not on the basis what sexual acts were performed. It seems far more likely that you just cannot deal with the fact that one of Maharaji's mahatmas was a serial child molester and that NOTHING was done about to prevent his access to children.

You have brought up the subject of child abuse on this forum many times, and each time, you have tried to minimize what Jagdeo did to these women. No matter WHAT Susan says, or anyone else says, you still persist in doing this. I can't help but feel that you don't listen to anything anyone says about this issue - in fact, I know that you and I have had this exact same conversation several times. I believe that this is a PERSONAL issue for you - and that it doesn't have much to do with Jagdeo at all. I ask you need to work out your feelings about this ELSEWHERE.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 12:35:03 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: And Bjorn... (FA's please read this!)
Message:
If you do not stop obsessing about this topic on this forum, and if you continue to minimize or rationalize what Abi and Susan have said, I will ask for you to be blocked. Permanently. There are several other people on this forum who were the victims of sexual abuse as children and I can imagine how upsetting your posts must be to them. I also think you are harassing Susan because she has had the courage to speak up about this.

I have defended you several times against being called a pedophile here (you have never mentioned this, by the way). I do not think you are a pedophile. I DO think you're obsessed with the topic of pedophilia and that you should NOT try to deal with this on this forum.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:57:07 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: And Kathie...
Message:
Well, I am working through or trying to work through my sorrows due to what has happened to me here at the Forum.
I am also working to forgive about what happended to me as a child. In my hours with my terapist yesterday, she kind of tried to minimize the damages I got as a child. And she said it was a good thing for me to try to work through things. However I agree that this is definitely not the right place and I realize the only thing I will experience here at this 'non-cultish' site will be pain.
I am tempted to send you an email of the correspondances between me and Susan.
BTW Susan attacked me, and it felt like a knife in my back.
I did not really understand your support, but I thank you for your advices.
Bye
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 15:15:50 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: And Kathie...
Message:
Bjorn -
(My name is Katie, not Kathie - no 'H', and it's pronounced 'KAY-TEE'.)

I don't want to see a copy of the e-mails between you and Susan, reallly. And I do understand why she attacked you - Susan is my friend, and the things you are saying on here are hurting her, not to mention other people on here.

Bjorn, this is just not the place to work out your feelings over being abused as a child OR being called a pedophile - if you want to do this on-line and feel that you need an 'understanding place', PLEASE look for another forum or Usenet group specifically devoted to that topic. You are not going to get what you want here.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:04:33 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Jeezuz, I WAS right about Bjorn
Message:
I truly believe this sick fucker IS indeed a pedophile. His own words condemn him.
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:32:34 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Harsh Comments
Message:
Bjorn,

Child molesters hurt people. They hurt children. And Jagdeo certainly hurt Abi and Susan badly. And there were probably more children he hurt as well, and he had the opportunity to victimize children because of his status in Elan Vital. That's why child molestation is against the law and one goes to prison for it.

Being heterosexual or homosexual hurts no one. In most civilized places neither is illegal because there is nothing inherently wrong with either. But by definition child molestation is harmful, criminal activity. It may be harder for people who have psychological problems and are sexually attracted to children, but that doesn't make it any less wrong.

And for Maharaji and Elan Vital to be informed that a child molester was in their midst 23 years ago and to do nothing about it, and then, to be informed again last year and do nothing to bring Jagdeo to justice, is, in my opinion, 'harboring' a child molester, harboring a criminal and that's wrong, and anyone in Elan Vital is knows that is going on and does nothing about it, and even covers for it, like Marcia Leitner if that's what she did, is just as personally liable in my opinion, and that is not too harsh, no.

Children, especially young children, are powerless against the predations of adults and deserve protection in a civilized society, and Elan Vital and Maharaji should be doing everything they can to prevent that from happening and not just trying to sweep it under the rug.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:02:42 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Harsh Comments
Message:
Joe
I agree with you totally.
But if you read my post, my point is that some hetros rape, some gays rape.

My point is that, after talking to my terapist today, there are many pedophiles that do not harm children. And that the touching that happened to Abi Susan, according to what I talked about today with my terapist, probably did not harm their lives.

Like most gays dont harm other people.

If you said the word homosexuals in the fifties in my country, you thought about a person who would rape a child or another person.

If you hear the word 'pedophile' today, you think of a person who is molesting or raping children. But what I was told, some people, just gets sexually exited. What society is doing is that the people with such tendencies instead of trying to solve their problems, go undercover.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:59:10 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Harsh Comments
Message:
And that the touching that happened to Abi Susan, according to what I talked about today with my terapist, probably did not harm their lives.

I dare you to take your above posts, my post, Abi's posts to your therapist. I think there are very few therapists that would say such a cruel insensitive thing, and that you hear what you want to hear.

Say what you want about me, but NEVER NEVER minimize what happened to Abi you sick jerk. I wish I could ban you.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:09:51 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Harsh Comments
Message:
So here are 2 persons: Both has been sexually abused. One with touching by an adult, the other one by sexual intercours by an older relative.
Pretty bad.
They correspond.
One of them searches for answers. One of thenm suffers, not only because he is falsely acused to be a pedophile himself, but he in fact sees the need to visit a terapist to repair the damages both he had as a child and in the experience of being wrongfully accused of being a pedophile.

End of story;

After an attempt to understand the truth, the one person says to the other:
'Say what you want about me, but NEVER NEVER minimize what happened to Abi you sick jerk. I wish I could ban you.'

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:55:45 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: You really are a sad fucker,
Message:
I'd suggest coming back here AFTER you've had your threApy
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:54:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You're gay??!! (nt)
Message:
nnnnnnnn
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:47:44 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And you thought you were the only one....
Message:
You aren't alone around here, Jim and there's Way, too, so now, there's three of us. Have you told Laurie? I'm sure she already knows, though. Women tend to be the first to know. Way and I get a toaster oven for having coverted you, so you will have to fill out a few forms so we can get out prizes.

By the way, I find your hard-to-get attitude, hot, hot, hot.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:01:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Touche! .... er, hm, no, take that back!
Message:
Cute Joe but, sorry, not cute enough.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 05:48:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Just pointing out the gratuitous comment, Jim(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:07:11 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Just pointing out the gratuitous comment, Jim(nt)
Message:
I'll have to pack some lovely curtains in with my next box to Jim.
By the way Joe, Jim DID profess his love to M Dettmers, and two other guys recently on the forum. Maybe you are on to something!
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 18:26:51 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: the only one... ? I thought there was only ONE ...
Message:
... of those.

PS Has anyone mentioned to Lesley that 'Lotus-eater' might refer to M's feet?

and incidentally, - me gay?

To be honest, not since I discovered women. But it takes all sorts.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:30:18 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: okay CoQ au vin
Message:
I always thought 'lotus eater' referred to people who went to the tropics and adopted a 'laid back' lifestyle. Like Gauguin etc and depicted in the movies with lots of sweat and a gin sling in hand.

I live in the subtropics, in a valley by a creek, near to the ocean. Though we have taught the local children to swim for twenty years and managed the local swimming pool like a family affair, something we are proud of, and is now sorely missed by the community now that we have been dumped by the council, we still have managed to have a laid back lifestyle, now we are attempting to earn a living as artists!?! (yes you can laugh!)

When I chose my moniker, it struck me as very funny because of the double entendre for a premie, kissing lotus feet and indulging in transcendental meditation practices. If I had known of the lesbian possibilities of the name, as you pointed out previously, I probably wouldn't have taken it, because I am not lesbian and it would have been false advertising!

PS, nice to hear from someone who's heard of Adharanand. In our K sess, he asked the room (after 1 and a half days satsang) who had heard 8 satsangs or more, a few people went into the other room and then he conducted the session with all the rest of the people which included people I had told the night before, someone tripped out on acid, someone who was busy with his hare krishna beads, etc etc, about 40 of us I guess.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:36:31 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: You mean I've cooked my goose?
Message:
Lesley, I may have led you up the garden path on this one (quite unintentionally though).

Someone, somewhen, in the distant foggy fug of my perverse past, told me that 'Lotus Eater' was euphemistic for lesbian.

Having done a bit of research since my last post to you, I'm inclined to doubt that.

Like, for instance:

ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA

Lotus-Eater

Greek PLURAL LOTOPHAGOI, Latin PLURAL LOTOPHAGI, in Greek mythology, one of a
tribe encountered by the Greek hero Odysseus on the Libyan coast, after a north wind
had driven him and his men from Cape Malea. The local inhabitants, whose distinctive
practice is indicated by their name, invited Odysseus' scouts to eat of the mysterious
plant. Those who did so were overcome by a blissful forgetfulness; they had to be
dragged back to the ship and chained to the rowing-benches, or they would never
have returned to their duties.

The Greeks called several non-narcotic plants lotos, but the name may have been used
in this case for the opium poppy, the ripe seed pod of which resembles the pod of the
true lotus. The phrase 'to eat lotus' is used metaphorically by numerous ancient
writers to mean 'to forget,' or 'to be unmindful.'

.
.
.

and these:

http://www.webcom.com/shownet/medea/bulfinch/bull29.html

http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Poetry/Lotus.htm

http://www.shadowfist.mudservices.com/faction/fac-lotus.html

http://www.lotuseaters.net/jfkdad.shtml

.
.
.
So I might have been badly mistaken in my inference that your chosen posting name meant what I suggested.

Oops.

(Incidentally, I was having fun trying to imagine you, not as a lesbian, since your posts gave no indication that you were that way inclined, but more as some sort of 'eater of the Lotus-feet'. Which was an interesting picture. Like some sort of pirhana with a taste for lotus toes (with added cheese?)

Ah well. I always thought the Maha should foot the bill.

Forgive my misinformation (that is, if I have been misinformed)

Perhaps this 'http://www.xenopharmacophilia.com/ee/caerulea.htm'is what it's all about.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:15:57 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: great post Joe (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:25:03 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: All
Subject: great posts Joe and Michael (nt)
Message:
xxxxxxx
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:05:19 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: macquarie@ozepower.com.au
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: I've been warned
Message:
Dear Michael,

Thank you for your post and your responses to questions.

I also work as a private consultant in the arena of Organisation Development - I'll leave that for another time though after I get a minute to visit your site.

I wanted to empathise, as much as one can on the internet, about getting vitriolic emails. My experience has shown that words alone can provoke very large emotional responses. At a time when I was getting more into responding on the ex-p forum I kept feeling shut down by some creep who remembered me from 15 - 20 years ago. He didn't actually shut me down but emotionally I didn't want to keep dealing with his responses to me. I imagine that emails such as the one you received, are a real piss-off as well as somewhat paranoia-making and possibly quite saddening.

Anyway time to get on with my real work of writing a submission for work.

Thanks a lot and cheers

Peter Howie
Brisbane, Australia

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 10:58:56 (GMT)
From: [edited]
Email: Black Gem- Weasel Will
To: Peter Howie
Subject: [edited]
Message:
Scram, Catweasel. Your harrassing (often with threats) of Pete Howie amuses nobody but yourself.

Forum Administrator

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:10:11 (GMT)
From: [edited]
Email: None
To: Petey
Subject: [edited]
Message:
[edited]
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 17:54:36 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: I've been warned
Message:
Michael:

You're demonstrating that even 'mature' people continue to learn. I've been trying to look around the next corner with a periscope, but perhaps I'll just take a short walk instead.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:05:57 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: On my own scale of human decency...
Message:
Micheal has almost earned the maximum number of points and now rates immediately below Johnny Ghandi. Won't anyone dare to blackmail him for the pitbull will get back on its feet.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:54:16 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Yves, please dont post till after coffee.-nt
Message:
sfghs
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:57:20 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Sfghs yourself
Message:
I had coffee. What now? You despise me because I am paranoid. Is that it?
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 01:43:56 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: cmon Yves,
Message:
I have read you since you got here and your post this morning looked a bit like it was before coffee. I was not one of your better posts. We all have our more focused moments.

I couldnt understand your post!
That is why I posted:)

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:40:19 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Thanks for the compliment. Did you get the joke?
Message:
'You despise me because I am paranoid?'

Got it this once?

It works better the other way around.

'It is because I am paranoid that I think you despise me.'

Just a joke from a regular weirdo. By the way, you shouldn't worry too much about my feelings. I ain't got any of the kind which get hurt. That's what I got from being the teasing kind. Thanks for caring, but don't worry.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:11:20 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Thanks for the compliment. Did you get the joke?
Message:
Hi Yves,
I guess coffee was on my mind because I just quit a couple days ago and I am still waiting to feel ok!
It does take a couple days of withdrawal when you have been a junkie for a while.
People say 'did you have to?'
They cant imagine a reason to quit.
It does take some disipline, the stuff is everywhere!
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:00:22 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: That being cleared, I love to argue.
Message:
That being cleared, I love to argue and trade abusive insults with anyone who doesn't get easily offended. For lack of a better choice, I, from time to time, speak my mind about some 'villainous abominable misleader of youth' who gets offended as easily as Miss Piggy does.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 11:04:11 (GMT)
From: U2?
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: It's a beautiful day.
Message:
Ground Hog Day? Ghostbusters?
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 10:36:56 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Please explain to me, Micheal
Message:
If a man talks about a person, and he says he is a really nice guy, - that is fine. And then later the same man talks about the same person and says he is a bad guy. What will be the conclusion?
You cant know for sure if this person is nice or bad. But you will definitely know that the man who tells this is a liar.

You wrote: 'Now I am being “warned” to do the safe thing as well. Back–off, they say, or we will make the lies that were spread about you on the ex-premie websites seem like kids play by comparison. Your playing with the “Boss” now Michael not some ex-premie losers'.
I did not find this in the e-mail to you. Did you make it up? Or did I miss something? When did the one weirdo become 'we'?

Are you aware of that Jean Michel once posted a 'recent satsang' by Maharaji from india. I think it was 'only' about 10 years old.

Are you also aware of that if Anth would have acted 'not safe' there would have been a chance that Jagdeo could have been in prison or charged for touching Susan / Abi 20 years ago.

You also wrote in your post: 'I would much rather be known as someone who come down on the side of those who exposed Maharaji and his cult for what it is, than to be thought of as the apologist whose silence was bought and paid for.'
Even if you previously told the agreement had not any really important issues (i.e. no major scandals), it sounds to me now like your silence was bought and paid for, (not everyone sell themselves). So where does that place you: A person who sells himselves, then lies about it, lies about it again and then breaks a signed agreement. Thus someone can face the fact that you are a person they cant trust.

Sorry, but whatever you tell now, you will lack credibility.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:29:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: God, Bjorn!
Message:
If a man talks about a person, and he says he is a really nice guy, - that is fine. And then later the same man talks about the same person and says he is a bad guy. What will be the conclusion?
You cant know for sure if this person is nice or bad. But you will definitely know that the man who tells this is a liar.

I'm sorry fella but you really are shockingly stupid.

Have you ever heard of someone changing their mind? Is that the same as lying to you?

God, what an idiot!

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 13:05:17 (GMT)
From: billorn
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: I disagree.
Message:
You start and finish your post with talk about his credibility.
After rereading your first part, it is clear that you didnt do your homework in reading and comprehending his posts and thier
progress.
He has worked on the credibility issue here and by now he has
gained it with those of the forum that demand it the most.
You had a chance to cover this issue earlier but now it is done.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 03:41:35 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: wow.
Message:
I just got back from a much needed trip out of town and away from the forum. I am so sorry this happened to you Michael.

I am so impressed with the way you are handling it though. I read it and shouted 'YEAH!!!!' and jumped out of my chair and punched the air.

I am very proud to count you among my friends.

Great, powerful post.

I am all smiles. Thanks.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 08:12:33 (GMT)
From: bill (b)
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: 'wow!' was my first response also.
Message:
'our lord' had a theory on 'fear'.
He said 'fear turns to love'.
He did and does run a fear based control empire and threats and withering blasts of verbal abuse and intensity are some of his 'tools' as he also put it.

He also did say that when the perfect master yells, 4 things happen.
First, you go into shock
Then you lose control of your body
Then you lose conciousness
If he keeps yelling, you die.

The Canadian instructor, STILL in EV, told how Guru Maharaj ji
said that and I heard him. I remember he told it when he was telling us about how during a 'festival', he was one of the people watching the Lord's kids up on some balcony in some hotel.
He had Hansi sitting on the balcony rail with his legs dangling off. The lord saw him doing that down below and when he got to the room, went to the balcony and started yelling before the instructor even moved Hansi off the edge. (I thought at the time that doing THAT was risky- but, he IS the lord so...)
Security grabbed the kid and m went into a blistering yelling session. I remember, it was Brian McDermott. He also said that Brian was not to be around the kids again.

When our lord was young, he used to hear his father yell and his memory was that everyone just froze.
Like father like son.

Breaking out of fear and programming is somehow laced with some kind of glorious, very real, emergence of a fresh dawn worthy of song. Some claim erroneously that the forum is negative.
In the forum Archives are moments of personal triumph and emergence. I have not seen truth do harm in this subject.
I would have stood no chance without those that stood up for truth here. My life would have been unrecoverable.

You know the story that is told about someone who is tossing starfish back into the sea and someone else says 'there are too many, you cant make a difference', the other person then says 'well, I made a difference for that one! and this one.'

What our lord keeps hidden always from his 'lovers' is his personal behaviour. That is exactly what needs to come out into the light of day. For others and also, actually, for him.

In Opera, sometimes Courage gets called to center stage.
However hard the truth, a look at the audience shows why it is necessary. Only the deepest secrets brought to light will free those that are deepest caught.

'All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.'

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 03:17:30 (GMT)
From: A Friend
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: 25 Richest Premies in N. America 1976
Message:
Dear Micheal,

Do you remember Denver 1976? When 25 of the richest premies in Canada and the U.S. were invited to the 'lotus feet'? to cover the debt incurred from the Astrodome event? Yes they actually made a list. Hate to ask this but were you one of the people involved in getting that list together? One poor girl gave all of her inheritance - $250,000, a lot of money in those days, much to her parents chagrin. When asked for another donation that day she replied 'It's all gone.'

I remember another 'rich kid' in the U.K. doing the same thing a little earlier in the 1970's with his large 'old money' inheritance including a beautiful farmhouse in the North of Scotland which was given over to Divine Light Mission as an ashram and later sold I believe.This person is now penniless also. Easy come easy go I guess meanwhile Maharaji and Raja Ji were raking it in and still are from other little rich kids on their way through time. With good investments the money

Thanks for doing what you're doing. It made me sick too when I recently asked about Jagdeo and was told he was a little under the weather due to old age but that he was doing fine in India.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 11:12:39 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: None
To: A Friend
Subject: 25 Richest Premies in N. America 1976
Message:
I'm embarrassed to admit that I did help organize that special fundraising event and, as a former national coordinator of DLM in Canada at the time, I'm sure I suggested names to the list of invitees.

Michael

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:29:55 (GMT)
From: A Friend
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: 25 Richest Premies in N. America 1976
Message:
Thanks for being so honest.

We only have our integrity and I would say about 95% of Elan Vital and other premies have now almost lost theirs. Sad but true.

A Friend

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 07:06:37 (GMT)
From: me
Email: None
To: A Friend
Subject: charanand finds it funny in 1994
Message:
I heard charanand speak in 94 and there was only only one time when he laughed and it was when he was relating the story of a girl he had met recently and she had donated the proceeds of her inheritance, which was a house sale in Denver.
According to him it was 150000 dollars. He thought it was halarious that she now didnt have enough money to go to the event in Miami. Really, I could not understand why in the world that was so funny. I didnt hear him wrong at all.
He laughed hard twice during the telling of it and then said a comment and the gist of it was, that she was dumb to give away all her money.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:25:55 (GMT)
From: A Friend
Email: None
To: me
Subject: charanand finds it funny in 1994
Message:
Dear Me,

Where were you in 1994 when Charanand laughed at that poor girl?She will always be kicking herself for doing that. Charanand always said that you become like the company you keep and he really has turned into a heartless, selfish, materialistic little creep just like his master. These days he wants nothing but the best like all these other creppy instructors going around. (Belkis and Sandy excepted) They have managed to keep their dignity in my opinion or it maybe just wishful thinking as I haven't seen them for a while. It's sad that these poeple who say do as I say not as I do have had such an effect on many many people.

A Friend

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 01:48:41 (GMT)
From: me
Email: None
To: A Friend
Subject: charanand finds it funny in 1994
Message:
It was in Hartford Conn. The year might be 93, 94 or 95.
My guess was 94
I am afraid you are out of date as far as belkis is concerned.
We had a few posts here complaining of him and his approach to the aspirants. Actually it was premies complaining about him.
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:37:07 (GMT)
From: A Friend
Email: None
To: me
Subject: Belkis is female - silly!
Message:
Out of date you're out to lunch........only kidding.

A Friend

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:20:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: me
Subject: Is this you, Bill? (nt)
Message:
ffff
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:16:29 (GMT)
From: A Friend
Email: None
To: me
Subject: charanand finds it funny in 1994
Message:
Dear Me,

Charanand is so materialistic these days.( I could relate an incident re this but I would probably be outed) I would say he has become greedy like the Master. He always told me you become like the company you keep and now he has. That was awful yet believable that he laughed at the girl who gave a house to M. Especially after encouraging her to do this. After seeing him recently it almost like his emotions are turned off. He certainly lacks any compassion. In his pink robes and with shaved head and smiley face he always looked the epitome of kindness and purity now he just seems like a disillusioned old man. Charanand if you are reading this I'm sorry but it's about time you came clean and faced the fact that you have been involved in a money making,hierarchical cult. I think you are hanging in there because you are dependent on M to survive financially.

Best Wishes to you,

A Friend

These guys have a lot to account for and I salute Micheal Dettmers for telling the truth. One thing M has said that is true is that children lie because when they tell the truth they get in trouble from their parents. We are not children and we should tell the truth even if it might mean trouble.

Your Friend

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:02:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: A Friend
Subject: Seeing through Charanand was a big drip for me
Message:
I remember living in Calgary, my last stop on the train to nowhere, when Charanand came to town once or twice. This would be in the very late 70's, maybe even 1980, my last year in.

I don't have to tell anyone what it was like having him in town. It must have been the same everywhere. Everyone got all warm and fuzzy like we were in a Spielberg movie about 'God Realization (Hindu-style) in America'. All real-life community grudges, conflicts and day-to-day doldrums were brushed under the rug. No one wanted mahatma ji to see how we really were.

Mahatma Gurucharanand made me feel dirty. Why? Well, for one reason, when I played tennis with him a couple of times, I wanted to win. Now there I am with a God-realized soul who's there, at that moment, really, for one reason and one reason alone: to teach me to surrender to my Guluploopydoopy and yet, even after reading all of Tim Gallwey's glossy bullshit, I'm still out for blood. How gross!

And there's Mahatma Ji giving it HIS all and that only made things worse. I soon detected that this little fucker with his flying carpet salesman smile wanted to win every bit as much as I did. What did I think? I didn't know WHAT to think? Was he mirroring my impurity? No, by then I was tiring of all these frantic, turbo-charged rationalizations (sorry, shp). I saw what was really going on and that was -- yes, it's true -- Mr. Holy Pants wasn't anymore detached than I was!

So now I had a secret. It was like I'd found a skin magazine under Mahatma Ji's altar. He was just like I was.

Okay, that was during the day. At night, like an old stripper who knows her audience loves her, not only like there's no tomorrow but even like there's no today, Mahatma Ji put on his makeup and did satsang. And here's where it got really bad. I started getting so terribly tired of his boring music, his boring stories and his boring voice. Instead, I wanted to play my premie songs (yes, I know), tell my dumb-ass make-'em-up-on-the-spot, it's-like-an-orange 'stories' and hear my boring voice.

Well, actually that's not really fair to me either. Sure, I wanted to sing a few songs like I always did but it was more a matter of wanting to hear anyone but Mahatma Ji.

I turned surly. The more people deteriorated into Happy Clappers, showing no signs of anything but premie mushroomhood ('Oh Mahatma Ji! Another song, please! Sing the same one you always sing but just make it a little longer this time!), the more I started to think bad thoughts.

Before too long it started to show. I stopped smiling that Extra Effort smile that lit up on everyone's face when Mahatma Ji was in town. I started to smirk and grimace. Soon, I was virtually shoving it in Mahatma Ji's face. I'd actually look forward to opportunities to stare him down or, if not that (I was still in the cult, don't forget) give him a pointedly UNhappy Clapper look. I feel gred jwah knowing that my cold shoulder -- from an ashram premie, no less - made him uneasy.

This is a small story. I know it. But what the hell, I'm sitting at home waiting for a call.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:20:30 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's your number? I'll call nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:03:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: What's your number? I'll call nt
Message:
Actually, Carol, I was waiting for a telephone pre-trial conference with a judge.

But sure, I'm still here for a bit:

(250) 360-1040

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 06:50:10 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Good conversation
Message:
Food for thought. But I thought about the word 'valid' that you looked up. The Oxford Dic. definition said something like well-grounded and justifiable and I conceded that I had not used the word to mean that exactly so perhaps it wasn't the right word. The Webster's I have reads, for the def. #1) having legal efficacy or force, then 2) well-grounded and justifiable, and 3) appropriate to the end in view, or effective, as in 'the valid tool for the job.'

So the use I intended was not necessarily the 1st on in the dictionary but was 'valid' for the meaning I intended, but the word itself is a distraction to you, I think, if I use it 'incorrectly'; especially when I made a point that you disagreed with...something about one person's faith being as valid as another's. And when speaking about the faith or belief of a person how does one person judge what is valid : effective or well-grounded (as judged by one's personal experience), workable (to the individual) for the appropriate end in view)?

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 14:46:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Whatever, Carol! WhatEVER.......
Message:
Carol,

I know how inclined you are to find some breathing space for your friends in the cult but the fact is that faith in Maharaji (as a Perfect Master), on any level, for any reason, is never valid.

And yes, the words matter. Words got you into this mess and word's will get you out.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:27:01 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: I've been warned...your courage is inspiring....
Message:
Michael-I'll be brief, as I am sure you are busy.

I was wondering if you had read my post from a few days ago.

I was hoping you would respond.

Your recent posts are responses that encourage me, and are probably better than anything that you could have written to explain your position on various things.

I feel that you are doing the right thing, an honest thing, and something that requires and shows great courage.

Thank you for being you,

La-ex

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 14:35:56 (GMT)
From: michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: la-ex
Subject: I've been warned...your courage is inspiring....
Message:
I read your post but it disappeared before I had a chance to respond. You can e-mail it to me at above address so that you don't have to re-post it.

Michael

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:13:47 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: I've been warned
Message:
That 'warning' is a sad inditement of the desperateness with which some premies cling to their world. To speak honestly is threatening. The so-called Great Truth is threatened by a few honest folks honest experiences. That's sad.

Premies seem so loving until you question the unquestionable. don't they? Then they show their teeth. The sad thing is they are just copying their Master's example of intimidation.

You wrote:

never underestimate the amount of fear that he engenders in everyone who is close to him or functions in an important position, especially the mahatmas from India.

Yes, from the relatively small amount of time I spent in close proximity to Maharaji, although he was always quite pleasant to me personally,(quite held-back/shy I thought) it bothered me that he did nothing to discourage the premies around at that time, from being so obviously intimidated and precious. I observed this on many occasions. I was so sad because I had hoped that it would be different around Maharaji. Even fun. It certainly appeared to me that it suited him to garner a level of respect from premies that was very obviously tainted with fear. The only people he seemed really natural with were his immediate family- and everyone sickenly froze to attention when they came into the room too.

Mind you, from the way Maharaji spoke to us in Satsangs, coming on like he was the Divine Authority, it was not surprising that we were running scared. (remember Kissimee ashram meeting?) I still have a pet grudge for David Smith who managed to make me feel very depressed when he interviewed me for the ashram. Maharaji didn't need to do much intimidating with people like him on the firm doing it for him very effectively!

I remember in Rome Maharaji told the ashram premies, privately, that we were his most valued disciples (or something like that). It's all very fine saying that but he basically just imprisoned us as far as I can see, using the fact that we believed his every word to control us with fear, not love. Of course most of us were sympathetic to the notion that God was analagous to a Father figure, because of our religious upbringings. As premies we thought that he was like a father who gets angry with his kids and chides them from love, and who even fills them with fearful stories of the dangers that await them if they don't do as he says. Anyway Maharaji was not, is not and never will be our father. Since I have my own children I can see that the kind of commitment, care and love I have for them makes Maharaji's former commitment to us ashram premies seem non-existant.
I dare say I would sacrifice my life for my children. I hardly think that Maharaji even knew the names of 1 per cent of ashram premies, let alone worried about what became of them.

As one of those premies who spent years being in Maharaji's Ashram experiment I am therfore very, very interested to hear about what M's attitude was towards it. It actually occurred to me for the first time, after reading your post, that it would not be unreasonable that Maharaji donate some of his vast wealth to us who gave all our money to him for some years.

Maharaji thinks that his work 'saving' people is so important and that his wealth is justified for whatever reasons. He is clearly so consumed with the 'perfectness' of it all, that he considers even his mistakes as being 'perfect'. All the same, it doesn't say much about his 'caring' for his totally committed ashram followers that he never offered them any real help in the Real world. Nor any explanation. He never really addressed the issue squarely. I have the impression that he would have liked to have brushed the matter under the carpet.

When I see how premies still struggle financially, and how they still willingly support Maharaji who lives in luxury, I am at a loss. I am sorry that they have suffered materially. I am all for making sacrifices to good causes but I am very suspicious that Maharaji's 'gift of knowledge' is just another religious trap, offering contentment but at a price- total dependance on him. There are so many things that point to cultic behaviour that I no longer trust him.

How I ever let myself be so robbed of my time I do not know. I found the so-called spiritual life deadly boring and unfulfilling. As a young man I kind of felt that my life was over before it had really begun. I was condemned to living this dreary lifestyle just because he said it was so important to do so. There was the fear of disobedience or what would happen if I got into the 'world' etc. All those fears constantly impressed upon us by Maharaji himself, over and over again. Crazy. Luckily I managed to resurrect my life when I left. I am glad faced my fears and got on with life, shedding my beliefs. It's hard trusting someone who puts you through that kind of stuff. I would rather live in ignorance than follow someone who scares me even if he is God. In fact my feelings are honestly that God can fuck off and die if he's not kind. I'd rather be snuffed outforever than have to spend eternity cow-towing in some Old-Testament God's Court. All I know now is that I am learning far more about life, than I ever did stagnating in Maharaji's limiting world. I am sorry that it turned out to be a con . Sometimes I feel radically motivated, through some sense of social responsiblity and justice to campaign against this sort of cultism. That is why I write here quite often.

Now, coming up to 44 and with some considerable hindsight, I can see that fear is truly something to beware of in life. Basically I backed off from Maharaji's influence because I grew to recognise how intimidated I too had become, and I really needed to get real. Sound like you have done the same.

Good for you Michael for not being intimidated by the sort of threat that this abominable creature of a premie has sent you. I am impressed with your integrity and I sympathise with your position. Only good can come from honesty. That to me is more inspiring than anything else. It would be really sad if you allowed this sort of evil nonsense to get to you.
I am glad that you feel that any confontation that has been presented to you by the ex-premies has been largely healthy, I underwent a similar catharsis since I have had the fortune to be friends with, and work with, intelligent and people who judge me frankly, sometimes brutally so. I have learned that ones critics are often ones most helpful friends. Maharaji, surrounded by sycophants, presumably does not have the advantage of such company.

Writing your journey would be I'm sure very liberating. Mine was. It would also of course be liberating to others. As a once privvy officer to His Majesty your story is bound to be interesting. Take it from me that there are a lot of borderline premies who get their 'Satsang' from this site. I know a number of people myself who find that the words honestly written here ring truer than the lofty hyperbole that they hear from the Maharaji Channel (featuring Maharaji and Maharaji and more Maharaji..as host and guest) .

Anyway I just wanted to support your decision to express yourself honestly and openly. No harm can come of it - only good for everbody.
Anyone who can shed some light on the obscure goings-on in M's world is doing a grand thing.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:16:01 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: I agree, multiply.
Message:
And hello Anon! I appreciated your contact in the past.
email? rbruce@teleport.com
Carol
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:04:46 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: I've been warned
Message:
Anon:

The only people he seemed really natural with were his immediate family- and everyone sickenly froze to attention when they came into the room too.

You know, this reminds me of nothing so much as the familial relationships of a dictator, mafioso, or drug lord. There's a new British documentary about Saddam Hussein. I've only seen the trailers, but it looks hauntingly familiar.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:46:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: questioning the unquestionable
Message:
You are on the mark on that one Anon it's quite amazing to watch these premies go rabid when questioned. ESPECIALLY if you are still technically a premie in their eyes. I had a few go beserk when I mentioned finding this site and the Bob Mishler interview in particular.
From a distance it's amusing to watch their pretense crumble but it is quite scary also to see the violent emotions surface in the so called loving brothers and sisters.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:44:11 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Guess what.
Message:
if you try to send to MurrrayB@netscape.net [mailto:MurrrayB@netscape.net] there is nobody there.

So as I mentioned above
1. Michael Dettermes became a nonbrainer during the weekend. (He used to be able to write pretty elegant and intelligent. Even if enlish is not my native language, I see suddently that Micheal is not writing correctly english)

2. This post is a fraud?

So FA, is this a post sent under a false name or what? Yves?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:59:35 (GMT)
From: Forum Admistrator
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Guess what.
Message:
Bjorn, you ask: So FA, is this a post sent under a false name or what?

Reading through Michael Dettmer's posts leads me to suspect the work of one hand only: that of Michael Dettmers himself.

If only the identity of every forum poster were as trustworthy...

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:15:42 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Forum Admistrator
Subject: Thanks FA
Message:
So for Micheals sake I hope his sudden inadequate ability to express himself properly in the English language is due to a temporary brain damage.

I suppose most people who would receive such a stupid mail, probably would laugh. (if they were 'clean') Or if they took it seriously, I assume they would act differently than Micheal did.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:34:35 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: what are you talking about Bjorn?!
Message:
I don't see anything wrong with the English usage in Michael's post - and the style is the same with his usual style. Are you by chance talking about the quoted text of the e-mail he received? He didn't write that - if you haven't figured it out!

By the way, if I got an e-mail like that, I would become VERY angry. In fact, ex-premie.org DOES get e-mails like that, and Brian often posts them on the forum. I'm glad Michael posted this one.

You didn't 'laugh' when you were falsely accused of being a pedophile on this forum - how do you think someone else would feel when confronted with the same situation?

You are really off the wall here, and you are making yourself look stupid, Bjorn.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:05:59 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I am just feeling Kathie!
Message:
Well Kathie.
Maybe I am wrong.

When I was in Denver I had great respect for Michael Dettmers. Even if I only was a janitor at the office building

I also enjoyed reading his letters and always sensed an intellingent man with integrity. I also thought he was a very good writer.

For some reason, in the last 2 mails Micheal sent, I got an impression that the intelligence I used to find in Micheals writing, (even from the old days) seemed to have vanished. There also seemed to be no consistency in his thinking.

As for me, I suppose there is a difference, I am innocent of the allogations you mention, but people seemed to believe this about me. And I dont think anyone would like to be in the spotlight of such false allogations.

Micheal on the other hand, if he acted in silence and did not contradict himself like he has done, I think he still would have my respect.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:15:54 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Try Vitamin C
Message:
Bjorn:

For some reason, in the last 2 mails Micheal sent, I got an impression that the intelligence I used to find in Micheals writing, (even from the old days) seemed to have vanished. There also seemed to be no consistency in his thinking.

I submit that this is the effect of magical thinking. You perceive as 'intelligent' only those ideas that agree with your priors, or that muddy the waters sufficiently that your priors aren't challenged. Perhaps what Michael says is a bit less 'circuitous,' and you percieve anything that is direct as 'stupid.' It is more direct, but the syntax is virtually identical to his earlier posts.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:17:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: you are? tsk tsk take that stuff over to AG
Message:
sorry 'Kathie'

(hey the one time he lowered himself to answer me he called me susan. Not that I don't like Susan.)

And why would you have wanted MD to be silent?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 06:52:07 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: you are? tsk tsk take that stuff over to AG
Message:
Hi Selene
When I first read Micheals post, I sent an email to him asking if he really had sent it. I could not beliieve it. I suppose I used to be a admirer of MD from the old days, and I could not recognize the Micheal who wrote this stuff.
I never got a reply.

I never got a reply to the questions I emailed Michael some days ago. Believe it or not but I have an urge to find out the truth about things.

I would not have wanted Micheal to be silent. I still think it is strange he exposes himself in this way.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 06:53:26 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: I got a reply to one today...maybe there is a good
Message:
reason you did not?
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 11:16:20 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: probably there is several reasons why Michael
Message:
dont reply.
Well I sent him an email the 12th. I thanked for his posting, but also said I was afraid if he did not say something really negative about Mahraraji, he would never be acceptet her at the Forum. Seems like a spot on comment.
But I challenged him re a FAQ statement I disagree with him.
I also wished him a happy life and said I dont understand the hatred towards Maharaji and premies.
Nex one shortly after this tread appeared, I asked if he really wtote this. I would never have imagined him to do so. Due to the respect I used to have for him (beeing a premie or a nonpremie), I kind of comfort myself with the idea that he must have been drunk or something.
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:00:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Your brain is useless, Bjorn -- sell it for parts
Message:
...if he did not say something really negative about Mahraraji, he would never be acceptet her at the Forum. Seems like a spot on comment.

It seems like an extremely trite comment and useless for the purpose you intend. Of course, cult apologists are challenged and confronted here. But that's not to say that people criticize the cult here in order to be 'acceptet' (have you met Tami, by chance? -- forget it, Bjorn. That was a joke. Tami is also brain-dead. Mind you, she's not real like you.) The problem with your thinking is that it assumes that Michael, or anyone for that matter, cares about being 'acceptet' here. So much so that he'd say pretty much anything.

That's stupid. You're stupid.

But your next sleep-walking drivel is most revealing:

Nex one shortly after this tread appeared, I asked if he really wtote this. I would never have imagined him to do so.

Again, for the last time, and just to put your little bird-brain to rest, I and several others here know Michael a bit. I talked to him on Sunday and, guess what? We discussed his recent posts including the ones you can't possibly deal with. Now, what is it, Bjorn? Am I lying about this? How low do you have to go?

Actually, you show how low you'll go with this last line:

Due to the respect I used to have for him (beeing a premie or a nonpremie), I kind of comfort myself with the idea that he must have been drunk or something.

Look at what you're admitting! Really, Bjorn, it's tiem for you to wake up. Hee you are expressly admitting that you'll do anything, no matter how stupid, to avoid the truth! The truth here is that Dettmers has said some things that you can't handle. So what do you do? You pretend that you have an excuse to think he was drunk.

This is the height of intellectual cowardice, Bjorn. And yes, that 's just what it looks like. Cowardice and dishonesty. I can assure you that Michael wasn't the least bit 'drunk' when I talked to him.

So there. Deal with it.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:52:35 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: exposes himself what way?
Message:
It's all strange for us when we post here and reveal things about our real identities. It's hard not hiding under an anonymous fake name.
It's a lot to ask of anyone. But I don't understand what you mean by the statement that he is 'exposing himself in this way.'

I have doubts about a lot of anonymous posts here but I do assume that if someone is using their real name, both first and last that they must be at least themselves.

I can't question their motives because I don't know and have no way of knowing anyone's motives. Most of the time.

Use of someone's name in a public place like this would be noticed by the 'real' Michael or others if he were not the real Michael posting. So why would anyone bother faking it?

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:06:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: The only 'exposure' is Bjorn's
Message:
Selene,

This game is called 'desperation'. Frankly, good cult member that he is, Bjorn has no idea how to process Dettmers' comments. For now, he'll do anything, strike out any which way, flail like an idiot, just to buy himself a little time.

Soon a bit of scuttlebut will circulate in premie communities about Michael. It doesn't have to be very strong, it can be really just about anything. (After all, look how idiotic this typical premie's makeshift defense is: Dettmers isn't Dettmers!). Michael will be discreditied like Mishler was. How? It's easy. Just take a look at Bill Murray's email to Michael for some idea of what kind of nonsense they'll try.

But, funny thing, that'll be just enough somehow to plug up the holes.

It's like The Truman Show. They don't have to plug up the holes in the fake sky all that carefully because it's not as if the residents want to examine it closely.

On the other hand, many premies will pause to think for just a little too long about this. They will make a point of reading Dettmers' reasons themselves and will even take the dangerous step of scrutinizing his defamation by the cult (however 'low key' it may be). They'll get confused and may even crack. Lucky them.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:15:03 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Truman Show it is
Message:
Yesterday Anon called it questioning the unquestionable.

I wouldn't trade anything I have gone through these last couple years since I questioned. I feel like someone turned up the amps and I learned and got back about 10 lost years.

And M said Him and K would burn up karma. HA!!

gotta go for a while.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:39:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Bjorn, you are thicker than wood
Message:
Sorry, bud, but you really do seem kind of slow.

Are you okay?

(Hm, stupid question. How would he know?)

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 17:40:30 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Norwegian Wood' = compliment! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 06:03:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: cute (nt)
Message:
kkkkk
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:30:21 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: the dogs, the beautiful day
Message:
Thanks, Michael, for going 'public' (in a small, online, but apparently important to EV, way)about your disillusionment with the Prem Pal way.

Those of us on the ex-premie forum, like you, are more involved with our families, our jobs, our pets, and the beauty of an autumn day than we are with Maharaj Ji's cult.

However, we feel that it is important that those of us who know the truth about this supposedly 'spiritual' organization speak up. My voice is important, but yours is even more important, because...you knew the guy! I was just a distant worshipper. I can speak about the dynamics of our Hindu-lite theology, but I can only speculate about the Man himself.

So thanks for speaking out. EV's response speaks volumes.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:35:32 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: very impressive nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 12:43:57 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: Hear! Hear! nt
Message:
very impressive indeed
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:32:04 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: I've been warned
Message:
Mike:

I must say that I am shocked, but not surprised. Ironically, that email from Bill Murrray (sic, I guess) exposes and confirms the cult-ness of EV more than anything any one of us could hope to say ourselves. I applaud you for not assuming the position, which they obviously are hoping to make you do, but they forget that when one leaves Maharaji/EV/the cult mindset, one's backbone returns to its upright position, never to bend in obeisance to a false master again.

For what it's worth, you certainly have my support.

Thank you, Bill Murrray, I'm sure you've made Maharaji and his many minions proud. I leave you with this apt quote from George Orwell: 'In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.'

Monmot

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:03:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: I love you, Mike
Message:
Okay, maybe it's not love. Maybe I just like a good time. But, holy moly, these guys are so funny!

Some of the things that Murray's threatening you with are a joke but others are clearly actionable as defamatory or interference with business relations. And yes, that's even if they're 'good faith' criticisms. Unlike the Hamster, you are not a public figure and, as any good libel lawyer will tell you, your rights in that regard are greater than his.

One thing you could do, by the way, if you haven't already thought of this, is simply send Murray's email to his server with an explanatory note. If you like, I'll even do it for you. With a proper explanation, they'll cancel his account in no time and will probably let you know who he is as well.

But, really, in the court of public opinion, any of you premies reading this, wake up! Look what you're part of! If you thought $cientology was vile, as I know most of us did, note how your cult is following suit. Disgusting, isn't it? After all, what exactly is it Dettmers said that warrants this kind of attack? You know, it's not like he's responsible for the tittie picture of Maharaji over on Roger's blasphemous site. He's pretty much assiduously avoided dissing any real the fucker a fat, greasy Hamster. All he did was try to tell his story. You know, a little company of truth ....

And is this the reception that every PAM can look forward to if they break the code of embarrassed, self-serving silence Maharaji thinks he's locked them up with? Too much. Too fucking much.

Okay, Michael -- a couple of other things. You might want to email -- and possibly snail mail, double-registered -- a copy of Murray's email to EV -- AND Maharaji -- and ask if they endorse this position.

And there was something else ... I forgot .....

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:22:18 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I love you, Mike
Message:
Jim:

One thing you could do, by the way, if you haven't already thought of this, is simply send Murray's email to his server with an explanatory note. If you like, I'll even do it for you. With a proper explanation, they'll cancel his account in no time and will probably let you know who he is as well.

I can't imagine that they'd do either. They cancel spammers but will generally not take the risk of interfering with any non-spam emailer for fear of being sued. Still, you might get lucky.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 07:12:04 (GMT)
From: Jim uses the 'L' word!
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: EV doesn't 'endorse'. Look at jagdeo-nt
Message:
gjeee
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 20:53:13 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: MICHAEL,I STAND AND SALUTE YOU.HONORS TO YOU.
Message:
with this declaration, I not only drop all reservations I was still holding about your genuineness, I have a profound new respect for you as a man. Your courage is exemplary. Would that Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon have had your integrity.
this murrray character ( with 3 's in his name, no less) has given his email address. we all have the use of it now. I suggest a research campaign of our own. WhoWhere may have him.
Jim Heller--you have the Law experience. As our Attorney General, you have our confidence in your abilties, in all matters legal, regarding this new development. What say you, counselor?
As for me, Michal, I don't have nearly as much to lose, ('after they took from me ,everything, they could ste-alllllll'), but I stand with you, with whatever I've got to render.
How vote the rest of you?
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:32:23 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Warning: this is getting unanimous.
Message:
MD may well be human for all I know. Would you please set the record straight and have him fart in an elevator please. We don't need another perfect human, a hero or a saint. A regular jerk would do just as well.
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 20:33:38 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Who is Bill Murray - anybody..?
Message:
(Somebody must know him.)

Anyway, thanks Michael for this post and your previous messages. I avoided joining in with what looked (at the time) like knee-jerk expressions of gratitude, remembering my dislike of hierarchies of status within the cult and - as somebody else noted - feeling there should be nothing similar going on here among exes.

Also I had one or two suspicions about whether you were truly entering this discussion in good faith. Happily those doubts have pretty well dissipated and I think your present open stance is very healthy, and the information you have given will help many ex-premies understand their former 'Master' a bit better, his real-life priorities and social relationships (or lack thereof).

How long-term premies will feel about your revelations, I have no idea, though as a premie I was totally immune to Mishler's defection simply assuming the guy to be some arrogant self-publicist who was now terminally 'in his head'.

Anyway, I have to say I am very encouraged by what looks like some ruthless honesty on your part - and to be so honest about yourself in public must take some doing - and also by your resolve not to be intimidated. If anything, it is your mysterious correspondent who appears frightened. Frightened by facts he would prefer not to have to acknowledge.

Best wishes,
Nigel

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:23:12 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Who is Bill Murray - anybody..?
Message:
Nigel:

As everyone knows Bill Murray was one of the original SNL cast, in Caddyshack I & II, Stripes, American Buffalo, and quite possibly the best movie ever made: Groundhog Day. Where have you been?

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:26:09 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: It's Murrray, not Murray (likely a pseudonym) nt.
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:43:36 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: 'Murrray', NOT 'Murray' ...? - bewildered..
Message:
Wrong pronunciation or something? Sorry, I'm English ;)
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 07:09:03 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Perhaps he couldn't get an email account...
Message:
under Murray because it was already taken, so he added an extra 'r.'
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:50:21 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Aha! - the three 'r's - I get you...
Message:
Over here the three 'r's (reading 'riting and 'rithmetic) are the basics of a proper education. Could be a coded message that MD has made an enemy of a formidable mind.

(Or then again, just a typo..)

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:27:50 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: It's a trrroll (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:30:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Who is anybody?
Message:
The FAs have a distinct advantage here in being able to validate posts, at least to some extent.
But thanks Michael.

And Bill Murray since you obviously read this site, come on out and give your opinions of this thread.
I think threatening someone in email is basically illegal not to mention a chicken shit approach.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:32:34 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I still say he's a premie...
Message:
well, maybe not.
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:36:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: I still say he's a premie...
Message:
God!

I was just looking forward to clobbering you this time.

Shit!

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 20:02:28 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: ot: Christian Coaltion Path to Victory 2000
Message:
Interesting first hand report of the Christian Coaltion convention of a week or two ago.

Christian Coalition Road to Victory 2000

Speakers included lots of republican heavyweights: Pat Robertson; Majority Whip Tom DeLay (R-TX); Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott (R-MS); House Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-TX); Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert (R-IL); Oliver North; Lynne Cheney; Steve Forbes; Jerry Falwell; and RNC Chairman Jim Nicholson.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 05:23:44 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Thanks.
Message:
And yet ANOTHER VERY DANGEROUS CULT!
(My opinion)
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 18:25:45 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: bobby2@mindspring.com
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek
Message:
Hi Mickey,

I'd like to tap your knowledge of the Christian texts here regarding what Jesus said about 'turning the other cheek' and 'love your enemies'.

What, in your opinion, did Jesus actually say regarding how we should deal with those who would do us harm? Should we accept them completely? How should we act? (or not act?) Ignore their actions or take decisive steps?

I've long been interested in this theme. I know I knuckled under and took a lot of shit as a kid. As I grew older I learned to fight for my rights, sometimes with a great deal of personal anger. These days I sit with considerations and meditations of Buddhist teachings on these themes. I no longer see anger as 'good'. The teachings as I hear them are that anger is always harmful. It seems we can transform this energy we call anger into effective ways. I tend to see the Dalai Lama, Ghandi, and Martin Luther King as models of appropriate action or non-action, at least regarding how I might act on a 'society at large' basis.

Interesting to me also is how this all translates into more personal themes, like how I would regard those who seek to hurt me personally.

Again, what in your opinion, did Jesus have to say about this? And, if interested in responding, how do these teachings work in your own life. Please email me privately if you would rather. My email is listed above.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 12:15:57 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek
Message:
Bobby,

'What Jesus meant' is not just another subject like physics or astronomy, requiring the need to consult a scholar, with all due respect to Mickey and his studies. Remember, the lowly illiterate Samaritan knew 'what Jesus meant' when he helped the injured traveler who was laying at the side of the road, when the priest and others in Jesus' parable had passed the poor soul by. It doesn't take booklearning to know, it's takes the presence of the Holy Spirit and love.

Having said that, to 'turn the other cheek' means to me that if someone has a bad reaction to a side of your personality, then show them another side that will better relate to the situation at hand. It definitely does not mean to be a doormat or punching bag. So many 'religious people' think that Jesus was a wimp who said never to get pissed, but Mickey and I agree that this is not the case. Furthermore, St. Paul said that if someone approaches speaking like a beast, to respond in kind, just to let the person know that you can relate on that level too. Paul's 'be all things to all men' and Jesus' 'turn the other cheek' are verty similar in general meaning, as I read it: In other words, Be relatable.

In the spirit of a Forum,

shp

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:20:22 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: A long response
Message:
Hi Bobby,
I am happy to answer your questions. I hope that you are doing well. Now, it’s taken me a while to answer because it’s Sunday, my busy day. I had two church services this morning and then a program to honor Tercer Edad (Senior Citizens) this afternoon, so I haven’t been home much today.

The texts to which you refer are from the Gospel according to Matthew (Mat. 5:38-45a) and the Gospel according to Luke (Luke 6:29-31). The translation I will be using is the Scholars Version Translation, which is a very accurate translation in modern English; it is the translation found in “The Five Gospels” the book published by the Jesus Seminar, a group of scholars who have been trying to figure out what Jesus actually said and what was part of the tradition or worshipping community for whom a particular gospel was written.

The texts: Matthew 5:38-45a
“As you know, we once were told, ‘An eye for an eye’ and ‘A tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you: {Don’t react violently against the one who is evil: when someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other as well. When someone wants to sue you for your shirt, let that person have your coat along with it. Further, when anyone conscripts you for one mile, go an extra mile. Give to the one who begs from you;} and don’t turn away the one who tries to borrow from you. As you know, we once were told, ‘You are to love your neighbor’ and ‘You are to hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: {Love you enemies} and pray for your persecutors. You’ll then become children of your Father in the heavens.”
Luke 6:29-31
“{When someone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other as well. When someone takes away your coat, don’t prevent that person from taking your shirt along with it. Give to everyone who begs from you}, and when someone takes your things, don’t ask for them back. Treat people the way you want them to treat you.”

Most scholars believe that the authors of Matthew and Luke used the Gospel according to Mark and another source, which scholars call “Q” from the German “quelle” or source. The texts quoted above are from Q; they don’t appear in Mark. These sayings are in a thesis, anti-thesis form, where Jesus says, “You have heard ...., but I say to you .....” Jesus is replacing Torah with his teachings. Jesus is calling people to do something which goes against their nature, and he exaggerates what should be done to make a point. He only talks about getting smacked in the right cheek; nothing is said about any other kinds of blows, and if one was to give their coat and shirt, all they would have left is their trousers, so that seems kind of silly. I think that what is being said is that those who follow Jesus are not to draw their behavior patterns from those who victimize them, but respond to others as they want to be treated. A person’s behavior towards others is to be the reflection of the treatment they want to receive. Most of this is considered authentic by the Jesus Seminar (I have put the phrases which the Jesus Seminar believes are authentic in brackets; I’m not clever enough to know how to post them in color).

I think that Jesus is calling people to non-violence in these texts, but I don’t think that he is saying that one should never be angry or fight for what is right; according to the gospel texts, Jesus was angry when he chased the vendors out of the Temple, and he preached about freeing the prisoner and ending the oppression of the rich over the poor, so I don’t think he advocated just taking a bunch of crap, but he did speak out against violence in this text. I’m non-violent due more to the influence of Gandhi, not so much because of this text, but I do give to those who ask me for money; I try to live according to the teachings in this text, although I don’t always succeed.
I hope this answers your question.
Paz,
Padre Michael

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:42:34 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: That makes sense. On the other hand...
Message:
Re:

He only talks about getting smacked in the right cheek; nothing is said about any other kinds of blows, and if one was to give their coat and shirt, all they would have left is their trousers, so that seems kind of silly.

if you started taking off your trousers as soon as the guy grabbed your coat it just wouldn't be proper.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:59:57 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: A long response
Message:
T'ank ya faddah!

That's really beautiful. I really agree strongly with those views according to Christian text and do try to practice them in my Buddhist way.

Amazing to me that the Buddhist teachings of 'giving and taking' and '7 point mind training' are really essentially the same as what Jesus said in what you related above. In these teachings Buddhism also lays out specific practices for sending out love and taking on suffering. They are awesome for me and they work.

The Dalai Lama has stated 'my religion is kindness' and my Buddhist teacher has taught that all the Tibetan complexities boil down to 'being a kind person', essentially the deconstruction of our negative emotions.

I too appreciate strength of character, speaking up and 'doing the right thing' in very active ways. Strong to me does not equal angry. I think I used to think that. I'm learning the ways of non-harmfulness. I've been angry a lot in my life and I've worked to transform it.

I think perhaps the question of anger is largely semantic. Anger in a destructive sense is very wrong according to Buddhism. However, to make a strong and compelling stand can be good, but when we lose awareness and hurt others or become enraged we damage ourselves and others. I think Gandhi certainly made a 'strong and compelling stand'. Do you agree?

One other statement of Jesus if I may.
Jesus said I'm almost sure, 'be ye wise as serpents and as harmless as doves'. What is he saying here? I've thought of this statement as meaning one should exercise discrimination in dealing with others, not let others get over on ya. At the same time, one should practice non-harmfulness. Is this a correct understanding of this phrase? Are there any other scriptural statements that cover discrimination and non-harmfulness?

Thanks Michael!
I'm doing very well and am very happy.
I want you to know that I've really appreciated your kindness and prayers. They helped a lot.

Hope you are well and happy too. Keep up the good work.

Bobby

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 03:42:42 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@hotmail.com
To: Bobby
Subject: Another response
Message:
I agree, Bobby, there are some similarities between the Buddhist and some Christian understandings of mindfulness and compassion (I say some Christian understandings because, as you are aware, there are many different denominations and theologies in Xistianity, just as there are in Buddhism). I'm not a Universalist, and I get offended when people try to dilute teachings and make them all one big beautiful love-fest, and I don't buy the Perfect Master thang either, but I do see similarities in some Buddhist and Xian teachings.
As for the 'wise as serpents, harmless as doves' quote (Matt. 10:16), the first part of the verse reads 'I am sending you out like sheep to a pack of wolves.' The wise as serpents thing may have been a wise saying which was common to that time. There is a lot of stuff that is imagery we, in a 21st century, North American context, will have trouble understanding. It may have been a humorous saying, a paradox, but I'm not sure. I like your reading, because we do need to use discrimination in our dealings with those who are hostile, but if we follow non-violence, we can't do physical or emotional violence to such people. I want to be kind, but some times I fail.
Perhaps we should continue any more discussion along these lines by email.
Great to see you around again and doing so well.
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 22:58:50 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Another response
Message:
Hi Mickey
Enjoyed your posts as always. A word about Universalists, if I may. Having been brought up Unitarian-Universalist, I don't think the teachings of different religions were diluted into one big love fest. Rather the goal was to increase understanding of the similarities *and* differences in different religions and to find common ground. Religious UUs do believe in one God, a God for all of us. However, they do not naively think that all religions are the same. There is just as much emphasis on scholarship, for example, for a UU minister to be ordained, as there is in any other denomination. I consider myself a universalist so I thought I had better stick up for my religion here and not let this go by! I didn't know exactly what you were implying here but I thought I would speak up.


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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 11:14:47 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Another response
Message:
Hi Helen.
Maybe I should have used a different term; I wasn't referring to UUs, I meant universalists (lower case u) who want to believe that all religions are the same (well, there are those here who believe that all religion is superstition, so they would be the same in that respect). I am thinking of the baloney we all heard in DLM, the Past Perfect Master story in which all religions have eye-ball squeezing at the core and then drifted off-course.
I am aware of the scholarship required of UU ministers; Star King School for Ministry is part of the Graduate Theological Union, of which my seminary is a member, and we were able to take classes there. They didn't really offer anything in my areas interest; their classes tended to be a bit more 'touchy feely' than I wanted.
I apologize if I offended your UU heritage :)
I hope you and your husband are well.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:57:25 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Another response
Message:
Michael:

Hard to imagine that he's not referring to the Genesis story, where Satan appears as an accomplished debator in the form of a Serpent. The Serpent is also an image that comes from Asia, where the dragon was regarded as both wise and good. There's also a Christian tradition regarding the 'Worm of God,' but I'm not sure what it's origins are; perhaps the same Asian 'good' Serpent, or Dragon. It probably means, be clever enough to not be caught by the guile or ill-design of another. Be true to the design of God. Be a 'better' serpent than Satan, etc. Purely a guess though. It could mean, 'Don't take your pants off if someone grabs your coat.'

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:02:50 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: You made me laugh, again!!! Thanks
Message:
I need a laugh!

Seriously though...if you take off your pants you can really turn another cheek!

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:09:00 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: You made me laugh, again!!! Thanks
Message:
Hi Carol!
Good to read you again.
the weather was perfect and it was just a total blast.
Of course I remember you, how could you think I might not?
I can qoute some of your old posts I think. Also, I HAVE some of them printed out. They are great.
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 07:34:37 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Wow, gee, shucks, thanks!
Message:
I didn't know I made such an impression.
Thanks for telling me.

Seeing my new grand daughter was special. I picked up my first grand daughter, who is 7 and drove her to visit her dad and new sister. It was fun, but I also heard the baby cry many times in the night, missed a dose of St. John's Wort and got pretty exhausted talking and driving to and from the place, about 130 miles each way. Today I needed to recuperate and felt tired and low. I should have spent time outdoors but instead was on the net too much! And here I am again. Off to bed soon....Goodnight

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:06:46 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek
Message:
Bobby,
Please,excuse me for intruding on what seems to be a personal query to Mickey...but, I also ponder Jesus and his words.
I have had a recent dealing with a 77 yr old neighbor that was very mean with her words to me bec I wanted to simply build a privacy fence on a portion of our adjoining property.

My take is ---Jesus was telling us to see our neighbor as ourselves .... and to judge not... and to forgive those as our Father in Heaven forgives us.....I must do to my neighbor what is done to me
...and that is --- I am understood and my motivations are understood and thus,I am forgiven in Heaven bec, I am a stupid,growing person that makes a miriad of mistakes as I grovel my way to perfection.

I have to forgive my neighbor as the groveling,full-of mistakes person that she is and that is the only thing to it.

My two cents.... and of course,don't forget - we are all one and this is all a dance ( Lila)...

Love,
Elaine

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:21:13 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: experiencing mortality
Message:
Hi Bobby
You and I do not share a lot of the same ideas but I do know that being close to death changes things a LOT.
In this case it being my mother's death a very short time ago.

Since then I have been goofing around on here posting.
I needed to distract myself. I noticed at work I was VERY uncomfortable with the hugs and sympathies co-workers gave me.
I realized something about myself. That being, I can go on and on about my emotional issues when they are not all that heavy but when a real big one comes along I feel very private and personal.
It's almost as though our bodies and minds go into survival mode and there is not a lot of extra energy available.
I know you wanted a Christian perspective in your original post to Michael. And I am NOT religious. But I have been going through a lot and something that I feel about turning the other cheek, etc: I cannot generalized or follow a pat formula or credo.
There is a time to defend oneself and a time to fight. And there are other times to walk away.
In the extreme case of physical attack for example. I couldn't fight for shit when I was in my teens and I got attacked twice, beat up really bad. both times someone came by before I was injured beyond repair, killed perhaps. That outside help and intervention seems to be a pattern in my life. One defense I learned was I can pretty much spot someone who is violent right away ( I hope!! ) from both my childhood and from those 2 atttacks. I finally got it through my thick head to avoid the obvious wackos. ( at least In Real Life :)

It will be interesting to hear Michaels views on this but I think all situations are different.

And also, in the lesser extremem cases of attack such as being flamed here, etc. I do know that the better I feel about myself the less those things hurt.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:12:09 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: experiencing mortality
Message:
I know what you mean. I had to go to the emergency room for my mother last Thursday. It seemed more serious than it was....but it could be anytime. The night before, my 2nd grand daughter was born. She is beautiful. I just got back from visiting (two hours drive away. But I am feeling a bit low now and here I am, relishing the little laugh I got from Scott's posts!

I also notice that I go in a cave more with the people I know in real life when I get depressed, but I come here or to email contacts when I get feeling low. Maybe it is because I don't feel the ebergy to really *do* something else. But it also lets me get it out and sometimes the responses I get really help me.
Love, carol

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 17:47:34 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Selene and all
Subject: experiencing mortality
Message:
When the closest person to me passed away and I cried for three solid months... a friend said on the surface an 'odd' thing to me.
Later, of course, I saw the wisdom in his words.

As I was crying,he said,'She gave you the greatest gift.'

Well, later,Icertainly knew the wisdom of his words. Because of my endless tears I reached such inner depths and was given one of the most exceptional divine experiences bec of 'grace' or just bec my tears changed my brain chemistry or whatever.

This may soundalso an odd post. But, for what it's worth it meant alot to me when he shared that sentence. He was very wise and brave to say such a thing to a sobbing friend.

Elaine

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 20:34:52 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Bobby and mickey, et al
Subject: to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek
Message:
i too took an awful lot of abuse fom a very young age, for the sake of trying to be like Christ as his ways had been taught to me. and ours was not a religious family.
but i didnt really know if Christ had existed until i stood by my alcoholic mother's deathbed in ICU, and asked that if Jesus were real, i wished he would come and help her cross over.
I was therefore thoroughly amazed when the ICU walls dissolved into vibrant light, and i felt someone walk into the room from behind me, and i was in a tight corner, ass against the wall!
what i saw was a full appearance of Jesus himself, as real as you or me, and he came round to the other side of her bed, facing me, over her comatose body, and he spoke telepathically with me for some long minutes.
i was awed and agape. when he departed, i had a new understanding about him and how he is, but i was afraid to call on it for another 15 years-- partly cos i didnt want to bother him with trivial stuff, and partly cos i knew i was falling short of how i understood him to mean us to live.
I had Knowledge about 3 years at that point.

its a long tale, and i can tell it another time--but i can tell you this: I read the Urantia book, after that, and the Course in Miracles, and the entire Conversations with God 4some, but the best book I have gotten, so far, that makes him easy to comprehend, is a paperback by an oil painter he appeared to, so she could paint him.
he came to her, as he came to me in my mothers room, on request--visible and substantial, and literally sat in her studio in sessions, while she painted her work of him--and while she painted, they talked.

the book is titled 'Jesus Speaks'. It has the painting he sat for, displayed on the back cover. i think Barnes and Noble carries it.

i am not a bible reader. i'm not a churchgoer. i get into public arguments with evangelists about him--because i don't want anybody Dissin ma Homie! I hang wit da man! you know whut ahm sayin? dat's ma G you dissin, dog!

anyway, if you want atext to read, in order to try to better get a grasp of what he wants for us, read that, and see if it has what you want.
he never meant for us to be masochists and victims. far from it.

one other thing: he really didnt want us bowing and scraping to him, either. its lonely at the top. he wanted friends and equals--not slaves!
i once asked him to explain if he was a human being, or was he Divine--and he responded 'Like you: I am both'
I felt sooooo foolish as i absorbed that. i cracked a silly grin and said 'I KNEW that. I did. I Knew that already! oh,God, do i feel dumb...'

if you're interested, i can expand on my sessions with him, over time, on request. quite different from MJ-- in many respects.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:14:21 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek
Message:
janet,
My God, your story, I am so jealous and at the same time - my condolences for your loss...your story took my breath away.
You have my respect....
Thank you ,
Elaine
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:27:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Wow! You hit paydirt with that one, Bobby
Message:
Boy do you two have a lot to talk with each other about!

Alright!

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:09:42 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: my reply to you
Message:
Just had an interesting thought Jim.

Ever see the movie Ghandi? I forget some of the original context but it has to do I think with intolerance, in this case I think of African enforced racism.

There's one scene where the British forces are arrayed against the Indians and it's up to the Indians to take their stand and move ahead. One by one the Indians simply step forward and are knocked to the ground by the rifle-buts of the British.

My situation with you of course isn't so drastic. I'm not in any physical danger with you. However, I do consider you extremely abusive towards anyone who doesn't think like you. I consider your words as personal abuse and in a sense feel hit over the head with them. Not everyone feels that way but I do.

Some of the postings I do here, some of the topics that excite me, have to do with my deeply held beliefs, experiences and views. I admit that many of my experiences and views may seem alien or strange to some or even many, but to me they are as close as my lifeblood. And at least some of us here are interested.

So, when I posted what I did in answer to Janet, I did so consciously, knowing I would probably be 'hit on the head' by the likes of you. I chose to post anyway, because what she has to say deeply interests me.

And, there are several others posters here whose posts, while not hitting so strongly on what I hold as most dear, are very interesting to me as well. I've repeatedly seen you abuse many.

I don't know what you experience with this. What I call abuse you may think of as playful sarcasm or ridicule? But then I think of it as more. You don't seem playful to me at all. You seem hell-bent on proving your points. Your words have hurt me and I think some others. It's really a shame. You do more harm here than you know.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:29:02 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: .....and you know what?
Message:
perhaps this kind of arrogance that you display is similar to the 'lord of the universe' arrogance I used to experience in the old premie days. You know, Maharaji is your 'everything'?

Were you one of these kinds of premies Jim?

I wasn't. However, in the old days, like back in the '70's for me, I used to take the wild 'lord of the universe' satsangs a little bit seriously. I figured maybe I was missing something.

Never really did get into the lord of the universe, but there was a lot more for me in the way of good feelings - love, honesty, and spiritual quest with the premies. While a premie, I did a lot of reading and checking out of the various explanations for 'how it all is'. Spiritual explanations held the most for me. I read a good bit of science as well.

My main motivation was to come to terms with the extremely potent experiences I had had with near-death and spiritual crisis. In those days, the terms weren't even invented.

Maharaji didn't work for me and I stopped looking for 'the answer' in Maharaji around the close of the '70's. I gave it a good shot, gave up years of my life, gave up everything and moved in the ashram.

My career really has for the most part has been about coming to terms with what I experienced in my 'spiritual visions' of 30 years ago.

You know really know very little about what I experienced, why do you continue your insults?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:11:32 (GMT)
From: JC
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: you sound more like 'an eye for an eye'
Message:
I know I'm not your buddha, but I was a little disappointed to see you return Jim's insult with an insult of your own toward him, in bold-faced type, no less. Rather ironic, considering the topic of the thread.

See Jim as a man who honors truth. As he sees it. If he sees truth through a glass darkly, that weakness is something he shares with you. So you are brothers, both in the love of truth, and in the imperfect ways you express it.

Only a man who can see the hidden love can turn the other cheek and feel no pain. An angry or hurt man should not do so, just to obey the rule. If he does so, he will only double his pain.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:45:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Look at it this way, Bobby
Message:
My 'insults' are just my plain guy reaction to your new age ideas.

Now, look at it this way. Say, I'm wrong and you're right. Isn't it just right and fitting that assholes like me are going to give you something of a rough ride when you espouse those ideas? But doesn't that just make it stronger and sweeter for you in the end?

Have faith, Bobby. This is all happening for a reason.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 07:35:57 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Buddhism's new age ?????? nt
Message:
Jim,

Maybe it would be an improvement in linguistics to stop using the term ' new age' to describe Buddhist principles which are 2,500 years old don't you think?

Hal

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:06:23 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Look at it this way, Bobby
Message:
You said:
My 'insults' are just my plain guy reaction to your new age ideas.
Now, look at it this way. Say, I'm wrong and you're right. Isn't it just right and fitting that assholes like me are going to give you something of a rough ride when you espouse those ideas? But doesn't that just make it stronger and sweeter for you in the end?

Have faith, Bobby. This is all happening for a reason.

Your other post had some points that I did want to respond to, like why I keep coming to this site and why I feel motivated to speak. However, I have quite a bit to say and don't know if I want to put the time in just now.

I will respond to what you say here though.

First of all, I'm not 'new age'. That's a catch-all phrase with many meanings, a buzz-word button of sorts. Don't want to get into it, but I'm not new age. I've told you before, on a couple of occasions I think. When you use such a term to me it's like saying 'nigger' to a black person and I do think you use it to ridicule.

I'm Tibetan Buddhist and have taken vows as such within the past year. I suspect you know little to nothing of Tibetan Buddhism and I won't get into it here. Let me just say that my visions of 30 years ago, which are most powerful experiential energies in my life are like rivers flowing into the ocean of Buddhist teachings. I could say a lot more about what this means to me but I really don't think you are interested in hearing so I won't.

The rest of what you say is totally off the mark as well. You have very little insight into the experiences I've had or what I've been through. You really don't know but act as if you've been through it all before. You haven't.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:08:55 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Look at it this way, Bobby
Message:
Dear Bobby,
There are many people here who DO want to hear what you have to say. You are right, Jim hasn't attempted to respect or understand anyone's religious beliefs or spiritual experiences at all. He sees it as his mission to disabuse those who find spiritual meaning in their lives of their illusions.

And it *IS* insulting. Incredibly insulting. I've experienced it, so many people here have experienced it, but it continues on and on. That is just Jim, doing his thing.

Glad to see you asserting yourself. You gotta stand up to people like Jim.

Take care
Helen

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:24:27 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Just a little 'Me too' and...
Message:
I am happy to see you here now at a time when I happen to be visiting.

Maybe Jim really is on a mission to make those with faith stronger by providing such consistent and reliable contrariness!
Interesting idea posed by Jim himself! Yes, makes it all the sweeter!

Love, Carol

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:55:11 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Look at it this way, Bobby
Message:
I really try to take in a lot of information and do fair processing with it all.

It's like this anthropology class I took for two semesters in the early 70's. The class was really different and the instructor went out of his way to get across the simple perspective that people from different cultures see things in totally different ways. Perceptions are based on deep structures in mind or brain according to one's view.

It was really, really amazing to me that most could not get the simple themes that the instructor presented. Most dropped the class.

I've done a lot of studies in the varieties of spirituality over many years. Analysis is part of my study, but analysis by no means covers everything. Some things must just be experienced. Things like love and even DeNiro's 'Analyze this' come to mind. :)

Good to talk with you,
Love,

Bobby

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:22:40 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen and a ps to Janet
Subject: flames and all
Message:
I know the FA just asked we keep this stuff to a minimum but I think these types of issues do help us resolve past cult programming or at least start to come to terms. They are key issues.

I've missed your lighter side lately. Could have used some of Tami in my life to cheer me up.

Lately I've been really trying to stay away from threads that will inflame or cause ME to make an intense post I may regret later. A good example is the mideast conflict. I have strong not so unpopular opinions about it but stayed away.
I dont' a lot of energy lately.

Having said that I do have to say it is very hard to read posts that sound so sure about what happens after death. That was tough to take, the 'life review' thing. Sorry Janet. I may be misinterpreting as can be the foibles of this medium.

But I just lost my mother and it's very hard to sit by and read this type of thing w/o asking
'how can you be so sure????' Even M in his revised edition doesn't claim to know what happens after death.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 04:54:36 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: griefwork,aftershock,wanting to know
Message:
when my mother finally died, i wondered what i would feel. initially, nothing.but by midnight that night i was acting very strangely.i went up on the roof of the apt bldg and laid down on the gravel and curled up in fetal position, and regressed to infancy, waiting in a crib for a mommie who would never come in and get me ever again. the artsy premies of the argyle apt bldg knew i'd been going to the ICU ev day for 14 days. they knew i was sitting a deathwatch. they came up after midnight and found me immobile and kind of catatonic. they got me to my feet and led me down inside and covered me, brought me food, and sat with me, but didnt fuss. everything felt strange. i functioned numbly but adequately for the following weeks, but a brother befriended me next door and offered to take me back to denver where i'd been when i got the call to come out. i went.
It was the basement of an ancient denver mansion.a band manager from georgia had taken me in as his home secretary and cook and housekeeper when the premies upstairs had closed their doors on me. once back, i steadily drifted into a state of grey isolation. i spent 18 hours on average, lying immobile on a steel cot, staring into nothing. i destroyed the corkboard walls that defined my room and moved into the stone lined subterranean mudroom that led up stone steps to the back yard. all my waking hours, I would press my cheek against the clammy stone,lying mute and still, craving to know where my mother went, and wanting to go with her, wherever it might be.
i had zero training or dogma about what happened at death. there was no talk of it in my family. I had no beliefs, no ideas, no nothing. all i had was the irrevocable fact that she had left the world and was never coming back.
the same premie who'd driven me back, dropped by one afternoon, and told me to get my coat; we were going to see someone. he told me not to tell the guy anything about myself, let the man do all the talking. slack as a cold noodle, i agreed.
out at the house in the modest suburbs, an old fellow came to the sidewalk and escorted us into his home, into a pink sitting room full of sun. we sat on a small couch, he sat in a hard chair. and closed his eyes and cocked his head as if getting instructions.
I occupied myself with glancing over the book titles and the figures of all 35 or so presidents he had on the sideboard, while he told my companion about who he was in past lives. I was just hanging out, not a part of the reading.
suddenly, while the old fellow was still speaking and pausing to 'hear' additional info he was to give the guy, I unmistakeably felt my mother walk into the room!!! i was quickened, and sat up, on point, staring toward the door, expecting to actually see and hear her come in, any minute. As i did so, the man on the chair, his eyes still closed, tilted his head and paused in his narrative to turn that way, and then nodded to someone unseen and then directed his voice at me:
'there is a woman here, who says she would like to speak to the young lady. she says her name is Betty, and that she doesnt' hold you responsible for the circumstances of her passing over. she says she is happy there, now. I see her surrounded by several others, family, it seems. they are all making gestures that indicate that they are glad to be reunited again. there is a small woman, and an older man, and another man, betty's age. he says to tell you 'don't sweat the small stuff'...'the woman says that she is very close to you, and is particularly able to be with you when you sit in meditation. she says that she sees your loss, and wants very much to help you in your void. she says you do not need a medium such as myself in order to speak to her, if you would develop your innate abilities.'
you would think i would be happy, right?
Wrong.
I was repulsed. no way in hell did i want to go opening no doors to talk to the dead! no thankyou! what a gross thought! ( i was 23 then) I knew who the other three with her were. the little woman was her mother, who had thrown herself off a 6 story building in postpartum depression when my mother Betty was 17. the older man was my grandfather,a patriarch who never remarried, and built up a sizeable fortune in road paving, carrying all his 12 grown siblings in a large house he bought, and kept them, until his death of endstage cancer, only three years prior. his death and my mothers grief in its aftermath, had been a major factor in propelling me to finding and receiving and committing to Knowledge. I had tried in vain to bring her to it, too.The last fellow was my deceased Uncle Teddy, who lived large as a ski bum and died on a toilet at synanon, ODing on narcotics someone had smuggled in to him while he was supposedly detoxing there to get free of prescription painkillers. My mother's alcoholsm had been fueled by the string of grief in her life, from her mother's suicide, to losing my father in her divorce, to her brother's overdose, to her father's cancer. now i moved to the head of the line, to take her place in the great chain.
this news that people survive after death should have helped me. in a minor way, it did. but it was no answer to the terror i felt, now facing the world with no intercessors. they were all gone, and i was alone in the world. i had years of nightmares, about life and death and mortality. i read books. i watchd programs. i was put on SSI and soc sec disability for my unstable state. a great rage seethed under the surface all the time. i tore into strangers with my eyes, demanding to know if they had a hand in her death. i went out at night for long, explosive walks in the alleys, unseeing, smashing random windows with my fist and not knowing i had done so. i didnt change my clothes for months. i couldnt recall what clothes were for, or why we wore them or washed them. i remember standing staring into a closet for an entire day, unaware of why i was there, and at the end of the day, closing it and going back to the cot and putting my cheek to the stone once again.
it was another ten years before i had another experience with a visitation from Christ. and another five before the third. but the third time came as a result of an unexpected visitation from a dead rock star whose works i was curious about, and after his coming to me, I wasnt ready to believe was really trying to communicate to me.
i was a major skeptic, hell bent on proving it was all something i could safely ignore. but it kept coming! moreover, other people, in the room with me, could hear him too. some could see him. he began bringing other famous people around to talk to us, who were up there, or over there. if it had just been happening to me, i would have believed i was crazy and delusional and checked myself in. but one after another my friends and acquaintences told me he was coming to talk to them too, apart from me. some were excited, some were sheepish, some were indignant. but there was no denying it anymore.So I finally relented and said i would be willing to help these entities if i could, if that was what they wanted. I will withold their names until a future post. who they are was not as important as the fact that i got a several years long education at their hands about life, death, the afterlife, and what really are 'heaven', 'hell' and 'purgatory'. i can tell you this--ALL the world's classic scriptures, as well as the mythologies, are true. they are ALL real. the buddhist, the hindu, the celtic, the nordic, the greek, the native american--they are ALL real. they live in those upper( and lower) dimensions as we have been told they do. and anyone can have a personal relationship with them for the asking.
it is a personla journey. no amount of someone else telling you can answer it. you have to go there for yourself. death is just the beginning, the spur that gets you moving.
if mata ji's death has shaken her son up and got him feeling not so cocksure anymore, then good. he's started on the journey. he doesnt meditate, he doesnt practice any discipline, he's got his little world view locked up tight--then death is just the visitor to wake him up and beckon him down the road untraveled.
and Selene--grief has its own strange lessons to teach. they arent fun, but they are precious and vast.embrace and trust the Guide, no matter how unfamiliar the map. trust yourself. no matter how you feel, no matter how you behave, it is the right way for you. no one can tell grief how to be. there isnt anything to be 'done' for it.rather than fight or run, listen to it. be with it. and dont make demands on yourelf. this one is deep.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:37:30 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: griefwork,aftershock,wanting to know
Message:
You have expressed some wisdom, but are you really being straight with what you say you've experienced!? It sounds made up, it is so extreme! My (former) psychiatrist would have a field day with the account you have provided! Visitations and voices: saint or psychotic?

Carol

Sap that I am, it made me cry a bit to read about your experiences. So they had better be real, or you are being deceptive and untrue and playing with gullible hearts. It is OK either way. I cry at fiction too. Just so you know the difference.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 07:00:36 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: no fiction. it's all true. weep freely-i did
Message:
nt nt nt nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:58:20 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Carol and Janet
Subject: whew glad you posted that
Message:
I wanted to respond to Janet but was somewhat taken aback. Mostly because the writing reminds me a LOT of someone who used to post here.
But thanks Janet and everyone.

If I am off here for a while please don't take it wrong. I have a huge new multimedia project and people bothering me and I don't know a thing about audio recording and editing.
Good thing I knew a few musicians.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 14:49:50 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Know what you you mean, dearie
Message:
Oh could it be so?

Does it matter?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:17:52 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: ot: speculations on death
Message:
Hi Selene,

So sorry to hear of your mother's passing. I know it can be very difficult.

As you know I've had what is known as a 'near-death experience'. I've spoken with many, many people at length who have had NDE's. There are a whole variety of experiences. I'm not 'certain' as to what happens after death and I don't think anyone is.

I'm not afraid of death. At all. I feel I understand the dying process a great deal. I even believe I have had experiences that may be on the same ground as 'after death'. But maybe not.

I can say that the 'most real' experience of my life was what happened when I encountered a 'Master Presence' face-to-face. This being knew me intimately and I can feel his/her Presence while I type. Sitting here in the body typing is like a dream to me. Really. I am blessed with the reference point of that encounter in my life.

I know many people who have had glorious, blissful NDE's and I know some who have had difficult encounters or even hellish experiences. I know many people who experienced nothing. For the people that I know who had the 'hellish' experiences, the contexts changed eventually and they believed they got value out of the experience. The experiences changed their lives.

I believe as the Buddhists do, that we die as we have lived. It's not in the material, but in the heart of the matter. The deepest layers of self. Love and compassion are the basis in so many of the spiritual teachings.

All of us are going to die. It's a natural process. All of my studies, direct experiences and spiritual practices lead me to believe that awareness continues. We die, then continue in some form or other. Like going to sleep and waking up, again and again. And if not, so what? Then it's completely over and nothing continues.

Hope that helps even just a little.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:31:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: it all helps thanks Bobby
Message:
You know how it is, we spent or I did anyway decades getting M's premie-think shoved down my throat and the new agey premies have left a lasting impression on me !!

I've always enjoyed talking with you.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:18:49 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Grief *is* exhausting
Message:
Hi Selene
I'm sorry I haven't commented sooner on your mother's death. I'm so sorry. I do know something of the exhausting grief process. It just makes you tired and unable to deal with a bunch of squabbling people.

Maybe Tami Rainbow or another of my characters will come out to play soon. I know what you mean about avoiding posts that you know are going to get your goat. It's good advice.

I didn't mean to imply that I have a clue about what happens after death. I don't have a clue about it. I was just wishing Jim would have a life review and get a taste of his own medicine, that's all.

I hope you find some peace in those you love...and love from
Helen

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:25:56 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: thanks Helen
Message:
For the condolences. I don't want to keep bringing up my personal problems but this thread was so relevent to some of the inner struggles I am having.

Usually I get so full of life this time of year. It finally drops below 90 degrees outside and I wake up and start exercising and taking care of myself. But not this week. Soon I hope.

I'm emotional, wasn't accusing you of anything. But I thought Jim was rather kind to Janet. For Jim. Hey he didn't call HER a bitch :) :)
(hi Jim)

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:00:19 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Grief, etc (ot)
Message:
That's a bitch that the one time of year when it's not so god-awful hot, you have to be goign through this.

One book that was helpful to me was 'A grief Observed' by C.S. Lewis, but I don't know if it would be your cup of tea. He was a CHristian but I think the book is fairly universal in its approach.

Anyway, you just take care of yourself. Of course you're going to be emotional, this is a huge loss for you.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:37:28 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: flames and all
Message:
Hi Selene -
I had one of my only 'mystical/spiritual' experiences when my dad was dying (he was brain-dead in a coma for weeks, so his actual 'time of death' is hard to determine.) What Janet said about the life review rings true to me, based on what I experienced - I sensed that my father had gone through this as well. However, it didn't seem to be a negative thing at all - it seemed to be a very freeing and joyful experience for him to finally understand what had gone on during his life.

I had similar experiences (although definitely not as intense) after the deaths of two other people I had been close to.)

You wrote:
But I just lost my mother and it's very hard to sit by and asking 'how can you be so sure'.

I think I know how you feel because I told my sister about the experience I had when my dad was dying. She's a very spiritual person (in a really pragmatic way), and she believed that I'd had the experience and that it was valid. However, even though I had had the experience, she hadn't, and she couldn't get the same kind of feeling from it - she kept saying 'I WISH I had felt that, too. She had nightmares for months about my father's death, and I think she still worries about him.

I can't say for sure that I KNOW what happens after death - I just know that that experience changed my whole internal feeling of what happens after death. I have talked to several other people who have had similar experiences after the death of people they were close to. Most of these people didn't expect anything like that to happen and are still puzzled by it, but the experience definitely affected their feelings about death and dying.

Take care, Selene -
Love to you,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:05:26 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Near death experiences
Message:
I am sure a lot of peopel have what is called their whole life flashing in front of them. I imagine it to be a kind of last gasp effect.

I had what is called a NDE once. A very powerful one.
light, tunnel, being called back. The whole bit.

Years later a co-worker asked me 'how do you know for a fact that it isn't a biochemical reaction?'
I couldn't argue the point.

Irregardless I still question what happened and am not sure.

But I am fairly sure no one knows for certain what happens AFTER death.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:22:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Well, I'm honoured, I guess (??)
Message:
Bobby,

I don't want to hurt anyone. Well, hardly anyone.

But I do want to hurt dumb ideas. Yes, if I was ever in the little house in New Mexico or wherever it was that Jesus last appeared in a tortilla (Janet, all I can say is you should have been there!), I'd be laughing my head off.

Hey, mayge the joke's on me, in the end. Maybe baby Jesus, or whoever else shp sends to greet me in my final moments, will rub my nose in the fact that I ridiculed you -- or Janet, or Gerry with his David Icke bullshit -- when, in fact, you, she, he or whoever really had it right. There must be a special room in hell for the ridiculer. Whatever it's like I'm sure it's not nice and I know it's not funny ....

Bobby, like you yourself say, like you admit you know, this forum is simply not a safe place to dream out loud about these things. I mean, look at the Israel / Palestine thread below. After seeing all the anti-Israeli sentiment here don't you think I'd be a fool to post a lot of puffy, warm and fuzzy stories like 'A-Day-in-the-life-of-young-Tel-Aviv-boy-Yehuda-and-his-dog-Yassar'? This wouldn't be the right audience. Not if I didn't want a little flak.

So what can I tell you? I get a cheap high making fun of new age thinking, religious thinking, that kind of thing. But the only reason we're both here is to discuss Maharaji, not those other things. Why you'd want to bring them up here when you know you won't get an easy ride of it is beyond me.

Oh, and by the way, that analogy to the British and Indians? Give me a bit of a break there, Bobby? Like, don't be silly ....

oops!

Did it again, I guess......

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:25:04 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bobby's original question was great
Message:
Jim -
I, for one, would like to hear Mickey's answer to Bobby's original post at the top of this thread. I thought it was a good question, and ridiculing it as 'dreaming out loud' or 'warm and fuzzy' is way off base.

I am not a Christian, but Mickey's textual interpretations are always interesting to me (especially in making sense of my Christian past). Furthermore, Mickey's PERSONAL ideas about Christianity, the scriptures, and life in general are interesting to me, and often helpful. IMHO, Mickey has got his head screwed on straight, and I get a lot out of his posts. I think at least several other people here do too.

I hope Mickey isn't put off from answering Bobby's question because of your subsequent posts ridiculing Janet and insulting Bobby. I think we ALL know by now that you get a cheap high making fun of new age thinking, religious thinking, that kind of thing. You don't have to remind of us of that in every other thread on this forum.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:30:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: That wasn't the one I was ridiculing, Sherlock (nt
Message:
gggggg
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:51:32 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh, I get it, you were ridiculing Janet, not Bobby
Message:
Why did you go after Bobby then? Because of something JANET posted? Or because he's Bobby?

By the way, I agree with Helen that Bobby is more than welcome on this forum. Janet too. I may not agree with what they have to say, but I think their posts are interesting.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:35:53 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: you will be given a life review, not punishment
Message:
as i relate somewhere in older posts (life after death, i think) there is no hell for punishment. if you havent read bobby's webpage, please do.
when you die from this life, you will not be punished for ridiculing. what will happen is that you will be shown your life from a completely different perspective than you see it here. nothing will be imposed on you. rather, you will be asked what you feel about what you view, and you yourself will make the decisions about what you want to do once you see it.
maybe you need to get in the habit of considering to think before you shoot. develop some discernment for what battles are worth starting, joining or fighting, and which are smarter to leave to others. not everything that moves is a target, darling.
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:42:52 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: It'll be like a bad B movie then
Message:
in my case. I think I'd prefer to go to the popcorn counter than have to watch myself making mistake after mistake throughout my whole life.

Maybe someone else can watch it for me and tell me about the best bits. Christ, I don't want to have to watch myself going through all the crap I've been through. If I'm lucky, they might lose the film.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:42:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: So THAT's how it works!
Message:
Actually, Janet, I did read A Christmas Story, you know, (okay, I saw the movie), so I'm not completely unaware of the mysteries of the death and the big ghost Guilt Trip awaiting all of us ridiculers.

So I'm not so worried for myself, I can handle it. But you, Janet, what's going to happen to you? There going to make you read all your posts, just crying for a little, oh shall we say ... capitalization .. perhaps. Are you ready for that tour?

Brace thyself, o' sister, the nigh is high and dry.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:56:05 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: So THAT's how it works!
Message:
Jim-
I see you're on a roll lately, insulting Katie and Brian, insulting Bobby and insulting Janet.

Not everything *IS* about you, Jim. You don't have to comment on EVERY interaction that goes on here. None of us breathlessly awaits your opinion on any given subject.

I do hope there *IS* a life review at the time of death so that you can experience what it's like to be shot down by you. You have such an appetite for meanness and nastiness. You get pleasure from other people's pain. You are one sick puppy.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:48:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen?
Message:
Insulting Brian??? Are you crazy?

Read the threads. That's bullshit.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:13:25 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: On this occasion, she's right, Jim...
Message:
I thought your dissing of Brian was way over the top - and not remotely confined to dealing with the contents of his original post. Sorry, but that's how it looked to me - hence my 'full moon' comment (not that I agreed with Brian's post to MD either).
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:19:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yeah, sure, Nige, anything you say
Message:
Time for a little textual exigesis. Here's Brian's post with my comments:

I read your long post below, and was interested in your story. All of us who were involved with Maharaji can personally relate to parts of it.

Good.

But you don't OWE anyone here an accounting of your life. Those who feel that you do are as mistaken on this point as they have repeatedly been on other points of blame in the past. if you're attempting to convince them of your 'innocence' of whatever criminal look they've chosen to paint you with - it just won't happen.

First question: who is Brian talking about? Who are these people who are 'as mistaken on this point as they have repeatedly been on other points of blame in the past'? Is he talking about you, Nige? Joe? Katie maybe? Who?

I mean that sounds pretty harsh just out of the gate. You mean we have a serial blamer here? Scary stuff.

But then there's Brian jumping in to protect Michael, I guess. Let's deal with the philosophical question, though, before it passes us by. Do YOU agree that neither Michael nor any other PAM owes us or any one us any accounting of any kind? If so, then you must think that every last bit of infmormation Michael's given us so far has all been gratuitous. The guy headed up our master's cult for years but no, he doesn't owe us any explanation. You agree with that or not?

Personally, I think it's hogwash. Tell me, why do you think Micahel feels as good as he does right now (yeah it sounds like he feels GREAT!)? Is it because he just did something superflous, coming out clearly against the cult as he has? No, of course not. It's because he's doing the right thing. And he knows it. And we all know it. And Brian, bless his heart, is simply wrong about this.

But that's just my opinion. What's yours?

Most, if not all, of the people who use the forum have found and chosen to use it on their own, and for their own reasons. None of them have been called on the carpet and been subjected to the accountability that you have.

Oooooh, heaVY! What is this shit, may I ask? What 'own reasons' is he talking about? And accountability? For what? Forgetting to write 'OT'? Well the FA took us to task for that. I agree it was serious but ... really, where is this going? Let's see:

But among to many here, unless you are willing to take some blood-oath of loyalty to what is perceived by an over-vocal minority here to be 'the rational position' indicating ex-premie purity, you'll still find yourself wearing a big red 'P' in their eyes.

Again, who's Brian talking about? Is that you, Nigel, with your so-called 'rational position'? Are YOU Robespierre or Calvin or whomever? Who are these ugly tyrants tar-and-feathering the valiant religious minorities amongst us? Who's got the red paint brush, I guess we need to know. SOMEONE'S GONE TOO FAR AND BRIAN'S JUMPING IN TO STOP A LYNCHING!

So who's he talking about anyway?

Conversations that you have with these people will continue to be posted here by them. You have no 'right' to privacy or confidentiality with them. Whatever confidences they might choose to keep in life, they are incapable of respecting your right and choice to keep confidences.

Bingo! He's talking about me, Nige. But, know what? I never once posted anything about any of our conversations without Michael's knowledge beforehand. He knew what I was about and I never hid it. SO WHAT IS THIS SHIT, NIGE? I tried to ask Brian myself in a particularly measured response but, as Katie herself smirked, Brian never reads my posts.

This forum was never set up to target individual premies. Most people use it as a means of communicating their own feelings with the small group of people wandering the globe who have gone through the same 'experience' as they have. For those undergoing the process of removing themselves from all the garbage beliefs that got them into and keep them involved in the cult, it's very beneficial to be able to read and post anonymously here.

No argument -- to some extent. As I've said before, I still think that anyone who uses the cult to their own advantage, as Michael did when her first blurbed it onto his resume as he did, is fair game. That's it. And if that person was extremely highly-placed in the cult, all the more so. But then that's my opinion. Again, what's yours?

In the time we were involved together in the cult, we called each other brother and sister. But, let's face it - many of the people we shared 'that experience' with were, are, and will continue to be, assholes. Most were 'low-ranking' assholes who wanted to be 'high-ranking' assholes. This forum is probably the only place in their lives where they've achieved that illustrious goal.

So you take issue with my slagging Brian a bit. Well, as a low-ranking asshole who's only interest in this forum is to make myself seem like a high-ranking asshole, I resent that. But then who cares what us assholes think. Brian seems to know what we think but that's different.

Nigel, how would you like it if someone accused you of having one agenda here and that being self-aggrandizement? That's it, one interest. Others here, like dear sweet ... oh I won't even mention her name ... they're here for the right reason. But you, Nigel, well, we've got your number. Tell me, Nige, how would you like it?

Next question: do you believe that about me?

Any former members of the cult who ranked higher than these newly-arrived giants are also assholes in their sight.

Just ask Dettmers if he ever, for a second, got the sense that I felt that way about him, even when he wasn't really talking? This is wholesale imagined bullshit and you know it. At least about me, it is.

Okay, so Brian's diatribe wasn't just about me. I know that. So tell me, Nige, do you think that this blast fairly applies to anyone? Is that what Roger, for example, is all about? He wasn't a PAM so -- FOR THAT REASON -- he hates them? And if not me or Roger, who would this slam pertain to? Joe? Is that why Joe was so hard on Dettmers?

What IS your opinion, Nige. I can't have this discussion with Brian so maybe you can help explain. If you don't know just make shit up. I think that's the idea, isn't it?

The common desire here to hold Maharaji accountable for his actions, lies and theft is understsndable. But using this forum to supoena people who ARE NOT Maharaji to an online trial here is diverting this resource to serve petty personal agendas.

Let's overlook the hyperbole, shall we? Let's get down to the 'petty personal agendas'. What are they, Nigel? Please.

And refusing to respect the efforts of other ex-members of the cult (whatever their past access to 'The Lord') to post honestly here without threats of online reprisals if the content falls short of a guilty plea is reprehensible.

I'm sure you thought nothing much about this part of his post. But maybe that's just because you're one of the lucky ones. You've never BEEN threatened like that by me or my crew, have you? We're talking 'online reprisals', Nigel. It isn't pretty. In fact, there's a moral rottenness to this revolution. There are bodies on the street that don't LOOK like they should be there. And where's all the money gone anyway?

Good for Brian, for sticking up for the true and righteous, I guess. And aren't I a motherfucker for slagging him?

You can choose for yourself whether you want to involve yourself with Jim Heller. He posts under his own name and has chosen to be held accountable for his words and anctions online by doing so. I don't doubt that if you or any other ex-PAM's fart on the phone to him, we'll all 'get' to smell it.

Nigel, I'm going to do the very thing that Brian's accused me of here. I'm going to reveal a secret of yours. You -- yes YOU, Nigel -- have, from time to time, emailed me. Yes, that's right. You have, as recently as a week ago, chosen for yourself whether you wanted to involve yourself with me. And here I am telling the world!

How do you feel now, sucker???? Got you, didn't I?

But 'Roger E. Drek' also has a real name. If he continues to use this forum (which is paid for by volunteers who want to support the spreading of truth online) to ANONYMOUSLY carry on a personal campaign against you, or to publicise here any off-site material 'exposing you', feel free to ask me for it.

Okay, new ground rules. When Joey slagged Roger -- insanely, I might add -- as a cult operative (can you imagine a worse accusation for a recent ex?), pornographer and general devil, Roger outed him once to the extent that he reported that he was posting from an internet cafe in Montreal. In fact, that might have been even because Joey was posting under some alias then. I can't recall.

Anyway, Brian and Katie treated that little defensive measure on Roger's part as a profoundly evil cardinal sin.

Need I say more?

And congratulations on being able to extricate yourself from the trap we all walked onto.

Well, I have no disagreement with that last sentence. In fact, the post would have been absolutely EXCELLENT if he just hadn't added the other parts.

Your thoughts?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:45:24 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Reply coming soon.. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 00:30:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What does 'soon' mean? (nt)
Message:
hhhhhhh
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:04:51 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitz..
To: Jim
Subject: When I'm good and ready!
Message:
Hmm, the thread will have gone cold soon, won't it? Are you that interested? Am I that interested..?

Really, really busy right now... back soon..

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:08:29 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: shall he and I make our chats public, here??
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:05:43 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: bobby2@mindspring.com
To: janet of venice
Subject: thanks Janet!
Message:
Hi Janet,

Thanks for sharing some of what you have experienced. I'd sure like to hear more. Please post here or email.

Also, I have a website that posts these sorts of 'transformative stories'. With my illness encounters of the last few years I've not been able to do much with the site, but there remain some good stories, including my own. I'd love to post your story about your first person encounter with Jesus and whatever else you'd like to say.

I've had encounters with the Presence myself and some of my stories are posted on my website. For me, the Presence is Buddha. I'm now a Tibetan Buddhist and a sincere practitioner. I've finally found a path that works for me and it's taken me more than 30 years of active effort.

In my view, God comes in many forms and the emanation or incarnation is specific to the individual. What's important is not the form, but the deep meaning and context. By the way, Jesus was a part of my process of healing through cancer.

My most recent story is on my web page is here:

Visionary Encounters with Cancer and Buddhism

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 18:45:02 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek
Message:
Hi Bobby and MIckey -
Michael, if you could address at least the textual analysis (and your opinions on that) here, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 18:18:14 (GMT)
From: Wish
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What was the big deal about GRATITUDE?
Message:
In a thread below someone mentioned that at his mother's funeral maharaji asked his brother rajaji if she said 'thank you' before going, and Rajaji blasted m for asking that. This whole thing about thank you's and gratitude was pounded in real hard in every one of his talks. 'You should feel GRATITUDE for every breath, and if you don't you have a BIG problem'. I guess, by his book, gratitude is synonymous with donations.

If you say, I love my wife and kids, that's normal and it sounds right. Would you say I have gratitude for my wife or my kids? It sounds wierd and freakish, which is a good description of m.

Even in a spiritual context, a devotee or saint would always express his love for god, gratitude is not a word that crops up for some reason.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 19:18:34 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Wish
Subject: What was the big deal about GRATITUDE?
Message:
I'm not sure what Maharaji meant by gratitude. Whether he means gratitude for him or 'donations', I cannot say. Maybe he did simply mean gratitude for being alive. I think that's a good thing no matter who says it.

When I was with Maharaji I didn't experience much gratitude for being alive at all. I've been chronically in the place of 'what am I doing on this planet?'. For me, Knowledge wasn't enough to cure this.

These days I actually am very grateful to be alive. This is a very strong subjective experience and perspective that for me took going through cancer to get.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 18:28:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Wish
Subject: You're right
Message:
I'd like to have a little more understanding of what happened between Raja Ji and Maharaji that day but, if it was like reported, that was precious. The cult leader gagging on his own pablum.
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:16:45 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: could rajaji be our fifth column?
Message:
i wonder if raja ji is the only person in a position to give it to maharaji straight. if there were only some way to reach him and confide to him our convictions, to carry them to his sibling. i get a sense of satisfaction, picturing him blasting his smug brother when no else can. kind of a classic Intervention scenario...
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 08:04:29 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: janet of venice
Subject: could rajaji be our fifth column?
Message:
As a recovering Alcoholic I am familiar with the concept of Gratitude, learning to have an 'Attitude of Gratitude' is a key concept in most Twelve Step Programs.(which is incidently where I think Elan Vital 'borrowed ' the concept.) When a twleve step person speaks of Gratitude they are simply trying to create a habit of focusing one's awareness on the bright side of any given situation. ( i.e. is the glass half empty or half full?) Twlelve Step sponsors will often get the newly recovering sponsee to write gratitude lists when they are being self-destructively self-pitying. This exercise often produces a temporary change in consciouness and alters ones outlook on life. They say in AA that stinking thinking leads to drinking thinking and they use this gimmick to help Alchoholics avoid being the victims of their own thinking processes.(i.e. allowing their thoughts and feelings of self-pity and hopelessness convince them to give up on life and take a drink)

They also encourage people to accept life on lifes terms and to help another suffering Alchoholic. To pass it on in other words. It's good to be grateful for what one has, to appreciate the many good things that life has to offer us in fact it is essential part of decent human behavior. No one likes an ingrate, That does not mean that you have to be a doormat for unscrupulious people. The people who would piss on your shoes then tell you it is raining. You don't have be co-dependant and live your life in slavery enabling them. God doen't make anyone any higher or lower than anyone else, we all made God's image which means we are equal. We are all teachers and students and we all have somthing good and unique to bring to the table. Let M take his clap trap pop psychology and put it the test by learning to stand on his on two feet! STOP YOUR RESCUEING AND ENABLEING
IF M NEEDS TO BE DEFENDED LET HIM DFEND HIMSELF, IF HE IS MAN ENOUGH!

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 17:58:15 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Thoughts On Persuasion And Influence
Message:
'There is also no obvious way in which legislation could be devised to deal with the influence of cults or similar organisations in cases where adults appear to participate in their activities voluntarily. It is even more difficult to see how such a law could be enforced in practice.'

From Cultbuster UK's message of October 14 02:47:22.

Fascinating issue, isn't it. You can be charged criminally for stealing a chocolate bar, but doing what M has done, including the probable influence over some sweet, innocent people committing suicide, experiencing severe mental illness, and just plain wasting the most precious thing God has given a person, their time, contravenes no laws.

A man who claims to be 'greater than God because he can show you God' wastes and harms God's most precious commodities and contravenes no laws?

Obviously this is too wild to have been envisioned even by the brilliant founding fathers of the United States of America.

Maybe this situation is part of the evolution of man. Certain holy books have talked about things such as an an Antichrist. However would it be reasonable to expect even the wisest lawmakers to institute laws that may apply to only one person who may not even be alive at the same time as the lawmaker?

I guess in a sense the person who questioned my messages to the White House were right in that even President Clinton, who, by the way, even in a few seconds of meeting him through a closed car window (his car stopped for five seconds and he looked at me), from ten feet away, struck me as the sharpest person I had ever encountered, could not, even with the best intentions, envision a situtation such as the one we have gone through.

This is why I see no harm in having informed him of my point of view of the situation. I spoke for myself. Whether they do anything or not, I believe something was achieved.

There is a term I learnt in university economics and which I have grown fond of which is 'moral suasion'. It means persuading or influencing through moral means as opposed to virtue of position and is used in monetary policy circles where the leader of the country and the head of the central bank are independent but can influence each other.

We are all part of the same circles and chains of events and surely influence each other in various ways. The expression 'something in the air' refers to something real, does it not, but I cannot recall seeing a satisfactory explanation of what this really entails. I intend to research this subject further.

I thank the forum administrator, Jim, and everyone else for their patience and feedback. I take what I need to or what I feel is correct and leave the rest.

Thanks

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:02:38 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: What does University Economics tell you
Message:

to do when you've been trying for 2 weeks to negotiate a significant loan , requested by a certain country in order to develop natural resources ,but you can't get anywhere because no-one seems to have the authority to make decisions.

Then in walks the Leader , takes a pistol out of his trousers ,
puts it on the table , & tells you that everything will be just fine if your Bank will pay for a hospital to be built in his home town.

What they did was make polite excuses & fly back to London.

I asked the man who told me this of his immediate reaction ,& he said , ' Well the barrel was pointed at one of my colleages ,so I wasn't too worried , but really we can't do business with people like that'.

Barry Bollix isn't the only bullshit dealer on the planet.

Moral Suasion , what that ?

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 17:28:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Imagine being the editor of ELK
Message:
Day after day, getting the same drivel from the same few posters still willing to contribute anything to the cult's campfire sing-a-long.

Ok, what's new today? Oh, looks like we've got yet ANOTHER little somethin' somethin' from Ivette. Should we put it up? Well of course. I guess we have to. What else is there?

So they do....

Ivete Belfort Mattos:

Being human

From Sao Paolo, Brazil


Knowledge is my daily opportunity
to become a real human being.
There is a place where the
enjoyment is sincere and real.
This is the space of feeling, with no
thought, no agony or misery.
And when I accept it,
I become a human being

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 20:17:49 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Imagine being Ivette. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:37:43 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Cannot do that. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 14:33:07 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Time Is Up
Message:
ni
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 16:51:50 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Friendly request
Message:
Hi Steven,

Please follow forum guidelines and mark off-topic posts (such as your cookbook thread below) with (ot) and no-text posts with (nt) in the title line.

Thanks,
Forum Administrator

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 08:48:45 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@homc.com
To: Everyone
Subject: No Fucking Way M Is Human
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 16:47:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Steve, do you have to do this?
Message:
1) Forum etiquette asks that you put an '(nt)' after no-text posts. That way people don't bother clicking to read what isn't there.

Btu beside that, it just clutters up the page to put a bunch of isolated phrases, definitions and lyrics from classic rock favorites. No, there's no rule against it as such but there is a 'norm' against it and a good reason for that norm. This is a 'discussion' page, after all. Not just the wall of some building.

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