Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 20:59:31 (GMT)
From: Oct 13, 2000 To: Oct 20, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


suchabanana -:- HEALING: People still dealing with these feelings? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:44:55 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- HEALING: People still dealing with these feelings? -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:05:49 (GMT)
__ __ Carol -:- HEALING: Some thoughts of mine -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 07:01:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carol -:- Just for Fun (?) I did complaint generator on me -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:12:07 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- HEALING:feelings shift but derive from impressions -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:00:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks for your post..... -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 16:56:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- You're entitled to your generalizations... -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:01:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- You're entitled to your generalizations... -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 23:12:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carol -:- I think I love you! Good post! that's all -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 06:00:22 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- ditto, I feel all of the above -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:42:23 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- stronger, wiser, and more cautious is healthy! -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 09:17:12 (GMT)
__ Carol -:- HEALING: People still dealing with these feelings? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:45:34 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- grief,regret,disillusionment,separation,loss,too! -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 00:49:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carol -:- grief,regret,disillusionment,separation,loss,too! -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 07:23:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- Self-reliance: and empathy for the ebb and flow -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 08:46:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Judge not? where's the wisdom in that? -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:18:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- a HEALING discussion, not debate/forensics. OK?! -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 20:16:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- Unhealthy self-judgment is unwise for healing (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:10:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- You implying that self-judgment is unhealthy? (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:46:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- unhealthy self-judgment vs. healthy self-exam (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 20:23:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- That word 'judgment' -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 17:28:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- HEALING, cq - not word definition discussions here -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 20:35:42 (GMT)

Weirdo -:- How many bricks does it take to make a wall? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:07:47 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- Apne hay. Apne he. -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:36:13 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Third possibility? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:57:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Yves -:- See? He did it again. -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:19:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!! nt -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:47:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Does Yves mean 'mundanely challenged'? (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:12:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Carol -:- See? He did it again. -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:41:29 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Holi -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 13:15:01 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- He fucked you good didn't he? -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 04:04:08 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- He fucked you good didn't he? -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 18:00:05 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Loin -:- Akshually.... -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 04:36:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Akshually.... -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 06:48:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Loin -:- LOL ...How Right You Are (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:25:09 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Holi -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:58:54 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- Relaxing -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:12:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Stress -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 22:21:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Jeez - imagine, a canine enema (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 18:18:30 (GMT)

Salam -:- Reply to Jim from a thread below (ot) -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:55:50 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Reply to Jim from a thread below (ot) -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 06:00:23 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- Salam and Jim-----Who gives a flying fuck????? nt -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:50:20 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Jim's 'parity of esteem' (ot) -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 12:57:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Jim's 'parity of esteem' | reposted for clarity ot -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 13:04:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh please..... -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:37:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- What kind of racist generalization is that? -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 05:03:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- My opinion -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:11:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Who gets the last chair? -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:36:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The Million Man March Retrospective -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:25:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- It's like an Automatic Cult Generator (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:30:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Oh please..... -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 17:03:19 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Reply to Jim from a thread below (ot) -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 11:36:19 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Reply to Jim from a thread below (ot) -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 09:24:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Where's your 'OT -- (ot)' Scott? (ot, ot, ot) -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:21:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- My suggestion -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 18:06:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- My suggestion -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 01:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Rowing machines (ot/OT). -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 16:41:02 (GMT)

janet of venice -:- complaint letter generator--works great! -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:04:11 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Remarkable! Here's a beaut ... -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:10:37 (GMT)
__ __ Carol -:- Bizarre!I looked up 1)scurrilous,2)Quislingism -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:44:48 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You won't believe what I got for 'Prem P. Rawat'! -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:07:27 (GMT)
__ Mili -:- I input 'Jim Heller' and I got this! -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 09:42:46 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- I input 'Jim Heller' and I got this! -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:01:57 (GMT)
__ __ JTF -:- I input 'Jim Heller' and I got this! -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 06:08:21 (GMT)
__ __ Try Milbank, Tweed... -:- and Hadley.... pretty funny! -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:01:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ How 'bout -:- Ex-premie.org? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:56:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- That sounds like a Wm. F. Buckley Bodice Ripper... -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:14:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ test -:- just testing -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 17:38:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- Was I right, or was I right?? yesssssss! -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 00:54:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Was I right, or was I right?? yesssssss! -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 10:33:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- go to cq's post and click the link to see -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 09:04:59 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Is That English You're Speaking? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:37:24 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Is That English You're Speaking? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:11:42 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- You asked for it, Scott -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:06:04 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Is That English You're Speaking? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:48:09 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- There's a book a colleague of mine wrote -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:46:50 (GMT)

Danny -:- To MD, another perspective entirely -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:43:19 (GMT)
__ Eric -:- To MD, another perspective entirely -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:45:36 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Tell me, Eric -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:50:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Eric, you disappoint me -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 15:55:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Eric -:- Would not want to disappoint -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 21:51:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Would not want to disappoint -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 14:55:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- very well done post Way (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 15:55:54 (GMT)
__ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- To MD, another perspective entirely -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 07:13:12 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Thou Dost Protest Too Much Danny.... -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 04:13:35 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Right on Danny! -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:26:07 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Does nothing embarrass you? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:32:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Does nothing embarrass you? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 22:17:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ jIM -:- Why not call yourself Deputy Ostrich? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 22:28:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Jim, what kind of a ponce are you? OK, here goes! -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:47:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's it? Fine, here's your score then: FAIL -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:56:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Jim, what is it now, you great pillock? -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:55:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Don't you get it? YOU JUST COULDN'T DO IT! -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 04:14:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Don't you get it? YOU JUST COULDN'T DO IT! -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:49:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Did you just say what I thought you said? -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:55:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Jim, you ignored the IMPORTANT question! -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:28:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, I know, the lizard thang ...... -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:34:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- more probing questions for Dep Dog -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 14:24:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- more probing questions for Dep Dog -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:19:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Thanks, Dog, for those responses -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 14:27:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- And three Q's from me for DEP... -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 17:11:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Probing questions to a premie?? R U Sisyphus?nt -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:09:49 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- To MD, another perspective entirely -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:13:55 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- Rawat uses EV to deflect blame from himself -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:39:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, Danny what do you say to this? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:43:46 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Danny, you have my sympathies -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 09:23:15 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- To Danny, an intelligent premie. -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:59:39 (GMT)
__ __ Danny -:- Replies to some Qs -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:50:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Replies to some Qs -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 05:30:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Look at what you've become, Danny -- no seriously -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 22:38:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- TO ALL PREMIES WHO COME HERE-LOOK AT THIS -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 15:55:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- On the other hand... -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 02:40:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Come on, Scott, think about it -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 03:12:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- OK -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 05:04:09 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- a few questions,Danny.... -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:57:33 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- And great post, LA... -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:20:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- that was a great post, LA... -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:22:53 (GMT)
__ Anon -:- What great love and respect has he shown you? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:40:51 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- How come ALL premies say they never gave a dime?nt -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:33:28 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Funny and on-the-money (no pun) as usual, Daneane -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:40:02 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- To MD, another perspective entirely -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:31:18 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- To MD, another perspective entirely -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:25:06 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Great post, Katie -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:38:15 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- more -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:32:09 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Great post, Jim (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:46:54 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- The pipes, the pipes are calling... -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:09:08 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- What do you think of Bill Murray, Danny boy?(nt) -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:55:43 (GMT)
__ __ Danny -:- What do you think of Bill Murray, Danny boy? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:15:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks for that answer. I agree. -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:28:21 (GMT)
__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Heres what I think of Bill Murray! -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 11:29:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- My first valentine to Mel -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:25:44 (GMT)
__ __ Bjørn -:- What I think ? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:12:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- A little wishful thinking, Bjorn? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:35:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Coach -:- MD's e-mail spoofed? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:08:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- MD's e-mail spoofed? -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:25:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Coach -:- MD's e-mail spoofed? -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 17:16:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Coach -:- Forget It(nt) -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:28:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- So how come Jim -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:49:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh yeah? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:24:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- You are right Jim -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 07:23:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- My first valentine to Bjorn -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:27:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ me -:- Egad! you ARE in a lovey mood. Is Laurie at fault? -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:02:20 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- News Flash -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:18:23 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- News Flash 2 -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:58:39 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- The beast is getting weaker. Keep hitting (NT) -:- Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:15:04 (GMT)
__ Anarchist -:- You want dirt - you got it -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:18:17 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- News Flash -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:43:04 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Steve, you're fired. Elaine, want a job? -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:50:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Steve, you're fired. Elaine, want a job? -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:37:38 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- And we pay you how much a word for this? -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:26:14 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- And we pay you how much a word for this? -:- Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:14:27 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:44:55 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: HEALING: People still dealing with these feelings?
Message:
EXES HEALING/RECOVERY GROUP FORUM:
I: r.e. Please describe your feelings related to m. and the cult, and any changes you have undergone in this process recently. Some feelings reported include:
1. anger
2. bitterness
3. sense of betrayal
4. guilt
5. shame/embarrassment
6. doubts
7. confuson
8. anxiety
9. relief

II: r.e. your experiences and feelings concerning m. and the cult:

What have you done to relieve any negative emotions within yourself, or to just make yourself feel better?

How have you handled your emotions, discoveries, questions, and/or changed awareness? Positively or negatively?

How has your personal experience affected your relationships with others? Family, friends, co-workers, premies, and exes?

For those who still meditate occasionally:
Who still enjoys meditating, without the cult trappings or concepts? What do you derive from the experience? Do you struggle with any ambivalent thoughts and feelings now? Remorse, anxiety, peace, relief, etc.? Is your motivation and your meditation experience the same, better, or worse without m. and cult?

Peace,

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:05:49 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: HEALING: People still dealing with these feelings?
Message:
Dear suchabanana,

I love your name, btw. Over the past couple of days I've wanted to start a post about this very subject, so thank you for opening the door.

I've probably experienced all of the above. The reason I came back to the forum is because it seems that folks I've talked to (including my therapist) can't understand. It's a 'you had to have been there' type situation. Here I don't have to explain what it was like being in a personality cult.

I didn't practice k or see m for 15 years and I went back in 98. I wasn't surprised that all the programming and indoctrination, especially my belief system re: M being the Lord had NOT gone away. I missed the community atmosphere. When I entered the cult in 1975 the community I was in was very close knit. We really became a family and I had many close friends. M tore that apart and I believe in doing so he really started the beginning of the end for his cult.

Once I realized and accepted that he is a fraud (and more), and admitted to myself and others that I am an 'ex-premie,' I felt relief, however, over the past year I have been experiencing a lot of grief, anger, and especially a spiritual crisis. So many times I find that warped thinking popping up and I get so angry. I have no trust for any religion, organized, new age or whatever, yet I yearn for that feeling of community. I call what m did to me the big mind fuck. I considered myself a gopie. I had powerful experiences. I don't consider myself an atheist. I do have a feeling of a power greater than myself, mostly because I live in a very beautiful place, Vermont, and the natural beauty is so powerful, especially experiencing the change of seasons. I am very fortunate in that respect.

I am suffering, however. But I have learned to process grief, welcome it as process that happens in the course of living one's life. Hence I am able to let the grief come in, and let it go out so that it doesn't choke me. I really loved m. I gave him my all. Learning now, from Michael Dettmers that m never cared about me has given me both relief and more sadness.

That's all for now. I appreciate so much your opening this topic and I hope that the men folk here join us in discussing the process of healing from a cult. It's so important to let feelings happen.

Besides the grief, I do struggle with the embedded system of beliefs I adopted and carry to this day. Such as: everything is an illusion, so why bother to do anything in this life, etc. There are a million of those type of thoughts. It's, well, it's just real, real hard to sort it all out. I hope this discussion can continue.

Be well,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 07:01:43 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: HEALING: Some thoughts of mine
Message:
You wrote:
>Besides the grief, I do struggle with the embedded system of beliefs I adopted and carry to this day. Such as: everything is an illusion, so why bother to do anything in this life, etc. There are a million of those type of thoughts. It's, well, it's just real, real hard to sort it all out. I hope this discussion can continue.<

The spiritual crisis you spoke of and those kinds of thoughts (above) are real familiar, especially in my lowest moods. They are anti-life and I have made a habit of, well, trying to make it a habit to replace my negative or 'it doesn't matter'- type thoughts with something I can affirm, like someone or something I love or can do for myself or another which is good; or to just move off of them to the next and different direction. I hope this makes sense without sounding like a prescription or 'technique'. I have had some success with self-control of my thoughts and just want to offer that it has helped me and got easier with a little time.

I choose to believe in a higher power or a great design with consciousness and connection possible to all of us. I almost threw out this belief when I was throwing out all my old 'premie'
beliefs and practices. That was my darkest time. I had to reject everything and start over in order to put into place my own view of 'how things work'!

It really does matter what I believe: TO ME! If I give harbor to negativity or indifference, then my life feels pretty bad and I don't have much to offer anyone else either: no love, no energy, no life. It is very pragmatic actually that I 'choose' to have faith that things I do and believe really do matter, and that I have an invisible ally on my side to whom it also matters, since it pays off in terms of my satisfaction with my life.

I have reasons to be believe in my version of reality that no one but I can know. I suppose I could be wrong, but what matters most to me is that my experience of life and my outlook and mood and output are all better when I am having my form of faith, so I can't let myself be persuaded to adopt someone else's point of view about what is true for them no matter how slick the arguments for or against, one way or another. No matter if the basis for my belief is not 'well-grounded and justifiable' to someone else.

I guess I almost sound as sure of myself as I was in the early 70's about the 'Truth' being shown by M. It could be a slick defense/ attack(?) upon myself or a good reason to reject my ability to decriminate what is true, and that therefore, I should no believe in anything! I don't have to listen to that part of myself because it is different now. I am in the same world with all the rest of humanity not just on a boat relying on my master to keep it afloat. I am equal to every other person who also has to sort out thier own beliefs in the midst of multiple persuasions and influences. What I believe, I choose, not follow.

I believe in a power or energy commonly called 'God' and that basically all sincere beliefs or religious practices(that cause no harm) are equal. I believe that any person who is sincerely living their life with real love in their hearts and praying in whatever way they pray is being 'heard' by God by whatever name is used. If the only faith one can have is in yourself and the only ritual is spontaneously using your senses to enjoy the beauty of a flower,a flame, another person or animal if you do that with love than you are knowing 'God' and 'God is knowing you. Sometimes I get chills or tears from beauty and awe of something.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:12:07 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: my ego, your discretion
Subject: Just for Fun (?) I did complaint generator on me
Message:
(Is this coincidence or what!? I've almost heard these same things from people who didn't like what I said here, or thought it was stupid. Gee, if I ever feel like getting insulted, I can just go to the complaint generator and yet ther is some wisdom here, too.)This is what it delivered:

My complaint about Mrs. Carol Q Public

I am not writing to agree or disagree with Mrs. Carol Q Public. What I have to say, however, regards Carol's conscious decision to appropriate sacred symbols for
pestiferous purposes. Unless you share my view that it is a figment of her runaway imagination that there's no difference between normal people like you and me and
deluded carousers, there's no need for you to hear me further. Her older treatises were gormless enough. Her latest ones are definitely beyond the pale. Her secret
agents are confused anal-retentive rascals (literally!). It is unclear whether this is because her threats epitomize our most sick instincts, because her analects have
earned her opprobrium, suspicion, resentment, and hatred, or a combination of the two.

We must instill a sense a responsibility and maturity in those who waste everyone else's
time. We must grant people the freedom to pursue any endeavor they deem fitting to their skills, talent, and interest. And we must focus on what unites rather than
divides us. Please join me in incorporating these words into our living credo.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:00:36 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: HEALING:feelings shift but derive from impressions
Message:
Cynthia:

Yes, m.'s destruction of satsang, fellowship, ashrams, and organic communities -- and then a complete shift to television videos of him -- essentially destroyed team spirit and communality, and severely weakened the participation effort of most of the premies.

Grief, anger, mistrust of any religious system = a Spiritual Crisis, indeed!

'I call what m did to me the big mind fuck':

There is a whole range or spectrum of experiences that may generate a feeling of violation. Here's an extreme example:

I was watching a History channel show about POW's from WWII in Japanese concentration camps. The survivors related that the daily brutality and degradation of spirit they experienced was such that they felt that not just their bodies - but also their souls - had been violated.

In a different instance in the media recently, the Catholic church publicly apologized for a priest's pevasive pedophilia. Former altar boys stated they felt that their souls had been raped. Here was someone they had innocently looked up to, allegedly representing God, who ritually abused their trust and his position and tore the brightly lit hearts from their young spirits.

Now, if we look at the m. scenario, we have this: using valid meditation techniques and a Messiah liturgy, m. got people to believe and trust in him, then to worship him, and (for many) to devote their lives and possessions and money to him. Meanwhile, m's messages, symbols, and organizational apparatus reinforced mental and emotional impressions into the premies' and aspirants' psyches.

Recent Brainwashing techniques:
Think about the environment of sitting in a dark room, where an image of someone is projected on a screen or large television, and as hypnotic muzak fades in the background, the speaker drowsily intones a mantra of truisms mixed with slowly repeated messages of individual devotion to him - The Master, and the corresponding dedication of one's money and effort, and mind. Multiply that experience thousands of times for a little neural reinforcement...

Combining the meditation techniques with himself as the focal point or catalyst for an actual experience, m. blurred some historic yogic differences between one's personal practice and one's devotion to a teacher - although the teacher could allegedly help in one's development, too. However, the coordinated ritualization of the living guru devotion, the intensity of the focus upon the personality worship, and the extraction of tens (maybe hundreds) of millions of dollars in money and gifts were new elements that m. brought to the guru business in the West.

In spreading meditation to the world, m. also spread an epidemic of guru greed, and he also abused a position of trust -- harming those he had promised to protect, in the process. If he can prove otherwise, let him do so -- now. But, he can't, can he?!

You know, it's amazing (but understandable) how many exes and premies have been tormented and gone for personal counseling, because of the cumulative emothional effect of this reinforced cult stuff and then apparent betrayals, etc.

Also, yes, it's too bad most of the guys are too macho to 'fess up their feelings here (other than anger or other aggessive expressions). [I guess feeling is socially considered to be a feminine thing. Dudes like to deal with their heads, right, when their minds aren't focussed on their groins?! Guys have feelings, too, but they generally repress them as being unmanly -- it's like a foreign language.] Now, we've got some guys who love to argue, nitpick words, prove a point, flame on or mock their ego's opposition -- sometimes the forum's like a chaotic convention of trial attorneys. Just remember this: the fact that most of the guys won't open up is a defense mechanism -- personal insecurities disguised by the mask of bravado. The unhealthy repression of feelings shields but perpetuates one's pain.

So, feelings are important, too. Certainly, they may change from day to day. But underlying those feelings are millions of layers of reinforced impressions that we are in the process of evaluating -- and shedding those impressions that are harmful or no longer useful to us in our continued growth as human beings.

The less we flame and blame, the more we might open up, and see that while we are different, yet we are the same.

Peace,

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 16:56:12 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Thanks for your post.....
Message:
I am trying to be reserved in how much personal stuff that I post here, but I didn't start therapy because of the cult.

Without getting into the gory details, I have been working for 10 years with a great therapist to heal from terrible, heinous abuses inflicted during childhood. I have been working on my healing.

One reason I am so angry about the timing of my realization that m was nothing but a big fat fraud and betrayer is because I have worked so hard to get my thought processes (the mind fuck of my own father, who indeed did physically rape me, and much, much more). It's all so unfair, but I have to go forward and work on this.

Therefore, I am now struggling with m's mind rape and my own spiritual crisis. So I do know how to turn those negative thoughts around,(it's hard work, but can be done), but it's just a real pisser that as I was coming so close to recovery from my childhood history, I discovered how deeply embedded the indoctrination of m's cult has remained inside of my head and heart.

I am not going to let this new chapter in my healing process allow me to give up--I'm just real tired, that's all. I appreciate this opportunity to discuss what the cult has done to me and hear validation from others. It's helped me a lot.

As far as men are concerned, I apologize if I lumped all men together as having difficulty expressing their feelings. It's true that men often have a difficult time expressing their feelings, but my own husband is proof that one cannot generalize about that--he's stuck it out with me through terrible times, and has learned that having and expressing feelings (rather than being angry or just being stoic) isn't bad.

When I went back to see what was happening in the 'world of m' in 1998, it became apparent to me that the party line had become one that suggests premies should stay out of eachother's lives, and there was no community at all. That wasn't what caused me to come to my realization he's a fraud, though, I came to that conclusion after realizing how selfish and greedy he is. The money machine was still working. It was too costly to see satelitte feeds, not to mention those awful policies and practices around the use of videos. It was soooo boring--a VIDEO GURU!!! I just didn't want to spent one more penny or drive one more mile to see him or be any part of him. Yet the old premies I met here still maintain their belief he is Lord, we just didn't talk about all that around the aspirants.

That's it for now, thanks--
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:01:16 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: You're entitled to your generalizations...
Message:
I'm so sorry for what happened to you as a child. I can think of few things more horrible than what you went through.

Do you really think a person can 'forget' the horrors perpetrated on them in childhood?

I'm not talking about clear-cut cases of mind control as in ritual satanic abuse but, (I hate to say it) the 'run-of-the-mill' abuse so many have suffered.

I guess that I'm 'lucky' in the sense that my own childhood experiences left me with a strong distrust for 'authority' and the cult certainly was authoritarian. I was after enlightenment but all I got was another power trip.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 23:12:09 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: You're entitled to your generalizations...
Message:
Hi Gerry,

There are no generalizations when it comes to child sex abuse. The way in which a child processes the abuse varies from child to child. We humans have a very unique mechanism inside our brains which allow us to suppress memories of any traumatic experience.

For instance, people who are in serious auto accidents frequently cannot remember the event of the accident, but do remember the before and after events. It's called dissociation. Not disassociation, but a kind of auto-hypnotic state that (thank God) some children are able to do, because if they didn't they wouldn't survive the abuse. Gerry, it's a very in depth subject which I have educated myself about. I am also very fortunate to have a therapist who is also the Exec. Director of Prevent Child Abuse-Vermont. She and and army of volunteers have done so much in the way of prevention, assistance and intervention that she is now recognized nationally as an authority and her organization is now a model for the rest of the country. To those of us who know her she is a saint, the Mother Theresa of rescuing not only children, but teaching parents not to abuse. It's just wonderful.

For the record, well educated and trained professionals do not distinguish the differences between the actual act of genital rape or fondling or whatever. It doesn't matter. If someone who perpetrates these crimes on children believe that because there wasn't 'intercourse' minimizes the affect on the child, they are wrong. This is a person by person experience. And, after all, pain is pain and all humans feel it, whatever their childhood history. I don't set myself out as someone who had it the 'worst.' I know I haven't because I know women and men whose childhoods were unbelievably abusive. I also know people whose childhoods wouldn't be considered as bad as mine, but have a more difficult healing process. It's very individual.

There's been much backlash because of suppressed or occluded memories. It seems that when a person reaches age 30 or so, if they have occluded memories, they get triggered. Sometimes, as it was for me, an event occurs which makes the person feel safe. For me it was getting sober and moving very far away from my perpetrator. For others it might be the death of their perpetrator or their child reaching the age at which they were abused. But it really happens.

I'm very dismayed about the posts by the character Bjorn. The last thing we need is harrassment, not to mention spreading ignorant myths about this subject. As I said in that thread, this forum isn't about our childhood histories of abuse, but about the cult.

Thank you for responding,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 06:00:22 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: I think I love you! Good post! that's all
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:42:23 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: ditto, I feel all of the above
Message:
But most of all anger. M should be brought to justice because frankly, he raped me. He raped me emotionally but most importantly spiritually. He took from me my very soul. At a time when I was very young. Talk about child molesting? Jagdeo is not even able to hold a candle. He, M, fucked up alot of people but everyone needs to remember that most of these 'people' were barely of consenting age. He raped our youth! And continues on his predatory ways by duping the weak, innoncent, unbalanced, and confused. Oh, just when is he going to stop? How much longer will this charade go on?
Healing? You tell me but this forum helps.
Yes, I am stronger and wiser and more cautious. I am also jaded. Thank you very much M!
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 09:17:12 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: stronger, wiser, and more cautious is healthy!
Message:
But -- yes, most unfortunate, for the loss of spiritual innocence, huh? Perennial Candides... Paradise Lost?

The spent years, the broken trust, the vale of tears, and a resounding cry, 'Never Again!'

No one in this world holds the sole key and possession to our very souls -- only the abiding intelligent universal energy of consciousness itself merits our undying loyalty and faith -- so, to thine own self be true - always.

What was calling to me was itself within me, in the first place. Therefore, I return Home.

Peace,

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:45:34 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: HEALING: People still dealing with these feelings?
Message:
You left out:
grief or sadness.
regret.
disillusionment.
separation.
loss.
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 00:49:44 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: grief,regret,disillusionment,separation,loss,too!
Message:
Dear Carol:

Excellent -- Exactly! I was driving to a meeting this afternoon and decided I left out 'grief/sadness' and 'disillusionment' in my post. Separation (from some longtime premie friends and what felt to be a spiritual movement for 30 years) and a sense of loss come into play, too, definitely.

Your own thoughts and feelings, my dear?! I'm trying to get a healing/recovery/inspiration forum group discussion going here on a regular basis -- and then on an upcoming upbeat positive website, too (by January, 2001). Please elaborate on your own feelings and transition!!

If any jerk flames on this painful discussion, I will use my God-given intellect (and any appropriate language required) to kick his/her butt online.

Peace,

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 07:23:57 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: grief,regret,disillusionment,separation,loss,too!
Message:
>Your own thoughts and feelings, my dear?!<

I might feel more inclined to reveal them to someone who communicated more personally to me first. Today's feelings are the ones I mentioned today, above. Tomorrow they may be something else.

I never felt much anger, I have always felt more personal responsibility, even for breaking my vows: a matter of personal intregrity, even though when I made the vows, they were made under a false truth that was projected onto the waiting screen of my open mind. But then, I also broke wedding vows more than once. Leaving a cult is at least as heavy as a divorce. Can't be guilty for all my life changes involving a change of heart or mind, but it is somehow easy to fall into the guilt associated with my own 'lack' related to 'Knowledge' and Maharaji.

At least, I'm not afraid or superstitious anymore. And I often feel quite good and free.

... Please elaborate on your own feelings and transition!!<

I can't do much more right now. I have mixed feelings about all the exposure I've already opened myself to here and other related sites. I tend to over-expose myself and am consciously moderating that.
Carol

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 08:46:00 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Self-reliance: and empathy for the ebb and flow
Message:
Carol,

Yes, I think we're all learning to be more cautious now, and while being friendly and sincere,

making others earn our trust now, instead of our blindly giving it to them -- and naively assuming the best.

A loss of innocence, yes -- and for some, a crisis of faith.

If any conscious power or energy deserves that faith now, it's still within us, too -- as it always has been -- from the beginning. Not out there - outside of us, or to be misdirected ever again to any so-called representative of that energy.

We don't have to view life's experiences and involvements as wasted, tragic, or futile. Perhaps our experiences have become actually a renewal -- of a truth within ourselves (that can't be lied to, finally), or just a lingering feeling in our hearts -- not to be denied, or mistaken, or given away anymore to tyrants, imposters, panderers, or abusers of any truth in existence.

Yes, a chunk of what remains is healing the pain of having loved and trusted for so long and given openly of one's deepest heart -- to be then apparently abused and betrayed by one proclaiming a most hallowed position in the company of all humankind and creation.

In the Name of the ultimate good, there was evidently 'cheat and deceit.' And we have heard testimonials here that, indeed, even evil was committed by some -- and organizational stonewalling ensued.

Judge not, that we not be judged. Right? Yet, for all our faults and any harboring of misgivings, if we must, then may we be judged for the naked sincerity of our past devotions, and for our highest, noblest aspirations and dedications -- toward a purpose or course we deemed worthy and true.

Have we been hippie fools before, or are we now so darkly deluded - in our pleas for the facts to be revealed, and for the hearts and minds of all seeking shelter now to be healed?

Peace,

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:18:57 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Judge not? where's the wisdom in that?
Message:
We all judge. It's part and parcel of living.

The saying has been misused too many times.

(like, couldn't it have meant: 'first be willing to be judged yourself, before you judge others')?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 20:16:16 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: a HEALING discussion, not debate/forensics. OK?!
Message:
Look, cq, if you just want to mince words and definitions, find someone else to engage with. I'm not running for President here. This is a healing post, not a philosophy debate.

Did you read the first post of the thread, cq? OK: then, maybe answer the questions, or stay on track with everyone here. Read about what their experiences have been.

By the way, now, what 'feelings' have you undergone related to m. and the cult?

So, do you understand emotional healing and recovery, and the painful, internal struggles that some people have to deal with?

Yes, self-examination involves evaluation. When personal judgments come into play, however, it's possible for those thoughts to become negative or self-destructive. That's why people shouldn't judge themselves for any things beyond their control, or judge themselves harshly for their life experiences (where they haven't harmed others).

Negative thinking demoralizes an individual, inhibits initiative and motivation, and hinders one's ability to be happy and enjoy life. That's why healthy thinking, breathing, eating, exercising, work, relationships, and even prayer, meditating or calming one's mind, are holistic facets of emotional recovery.

Again, please try dealing with the spectrum of your 'feelings' about having left m. and the cult here. If you're dealing with healing, then be real, cq -- from the heart. If you're not into healing, talking about your feelings, your struggles and own recovery, then you needn't concern yourself with our little discussions here. Have you been honest with yourself? Kind to yourself? Are you in tune with your emotions -- as well as your thoughts? Speak from your heart -- or go elsewhere to debate. How long were you involved with m. and the whole trip? What happened to you?

Thanks

Peace,

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:10:28 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Unhealthy self-judgment is unwise for healing (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:46:55 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: You implying that self-judgment is unhealthy? (nt)
Message:
uh?
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 20:23:25 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: unhealthy self-judgment vs. healthy self-exam (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 17:28:44 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: That word 'judgment'
Message:
Boy, does it ever hold some negative associations for ... some of us. You too, Swami?

For me, self-examination is an ongoing process. At varying stages of that process, it's only natural to take stock of where/who/why we are who we are, and to form an overall impression of ourselves as a consequence. That I call 'judging'.

The word 'evaluation' would be just as good.

What's the point of self-examination without some kind of evaluation at the end of it? Something intrinsically wrong about forming judgments based on evaluations?

.
.
.

PS What DID the term 'value-judgement' imply to those that knocked the idea? Some sort of pre-conceived prejudice?

Would love to know.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 20:35:42 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: HEALING, cq - not word definition discussions here
Message:
Yeah, I guess so. But look, cq, if you just want to mince words, find someone else to engage with. This is a healing post, not a philosophy debate.

Did you read the first post of the thread, cq? OK: then, maybe answer the questions, or stay on track with everyone here. Read about what their experiences have been.

By the way, now, what 'feelings' have you undergone related to m. and the cult?

So, do you understand emotional healing and recovery, and the painful, internal struggles that some people have to deal with?

Yes, self-examination involves evaluation. When personal judgments come into play, however, it's possible for those thoughts to become negative or self-destructive. That's why people shouldn't judge themselves for any things beyond their control, or judge themselves harshly for their life experiences (where they haven't harmed others).

Negative thinking demoralizes an individual, inhibits initiative and motivation, and hinders one's ability to be happy and enjoy life. That's why healthy thinking, breathing, eating, exercising, work, relationships, and even prayer, meditating or calming one's mind, are holistic facets of emotional recovery.

Again, please try dealing with the spectrum of your 'feelings' about having left m. and the cult here. If you're dealing with healing, then be real, cq -- from the heart. If you're not into healing, talking about your feelings, your struggles and own recovery, then you needn't concern yourself with our little discussions here. Have you been honest with yourself? Kind to yourself? Are you in tune with your emotions -- as well as your thoughts? Speak from your heart -- or go elsewhere to debate or discuss definitions. How long were you involved with m. and the whole trip? What happened to you?

Thanks

Peace,

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:07:47 (GMT)
From: Weirdo
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How many bricks does it take to make a wall?
Message:
Poem
How many bricks does it take to make a wall?
How many walls does it take to make a house?
How many houses does it take to make a city?
How many cities does it take to make a country?
How many countries does it take to make Earth?
How much earth does it take to make a brick?
Gotcha!
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:36:13 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Weirdo
Subject: Apne hay. Apne he.
Message:
Let me propose this about MD. Since there is no way to investigate anyone secret thoughts (deep within inside), it would have to be granted freely or rejected one-handedly. Your pick.

Either (A) or (B).

(A) we all were fooled into this and did some kind of 'service' or 'propagation' effort. Fine. MD did some as most of us did and pictures or me as a poster boy are embarassing. I don't advocate letting anyone's ton of brick fall on MD's toes as long as Fatrat is flying. Leave the guy alone for we need everyone's participation. This is the old 'united we stand, divided we order a pizza'.

or

(B) MD is a double agent. Since 1) there is no proof to have me believe this without a shadow of a doubt, 2) if these allegations were to be proved, and 3) a double agent would be powerless here, our falling on him will only suck attention away from Fatrat, I suggest (A) as a 'True superstition'.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:57:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Third possibility?
Message:
Maybe this is all a dream or (fourth?) a Keannu Reeves science fiction movie.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:19:05 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: See? He did it again.
Message:
I am NOT weird. I am just normal-impaired.
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:47:24 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:12:48 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Yves and Tonette
Subject: Does Yves mean 'mundanely challenged'? (nt)
Message:
qoei
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:41:29 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: See? He did it again.
Message:
In some circles, (some parents of autistic kids, for example) NT means neuro-typical. I wonder how many of us former premies can really say they are NT!
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 13:15:01 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Holi
Message:
I took a break from this site for around 12 hours.

I just came back and now I have this feeling inside me like I've been sprayed by a skunk.

The Perfect Skunk?

I've been in psychotherapy for more than ten years and so I try to understand what all of my strong feelings mean.

Thanks for allowing me to express my feelings.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 04:04:08 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: He fucked you good didn't he?
Message:
It's over but somehow it isn't. He took your intellect and your very being and put you down the gargage disposer. He fucked you up almost beyond functioning. He fucked you and you didn't 'even have fun,' so goes the saying. Doesn't he remind you of the word 'evil'? My only hope is that someday M will pay. Pay in something that we all would enjoy.....MONEY. ALL OF IT!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 18:00:05 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Tonette
Subject: He fucked you good didn't he?
Message:
Here, here.

He doesn't have access to enough money to pay for the damage. But what he has is certainly better than nothing.

Thanks,

Steve

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 04:36:29 (GMT)
From: Sir Loin
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Akshually....
Message:
the proper term is 'I got fucked without even getting a kiss.'
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 06:48:27 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: Sir Loin
Subject: Akshually....
Message:
you mean without the ky jelly or a kiss
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:25:09 (GMT)
From: Sir Loin
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: LOL ...How Right You Are (nt)
Message:
bbbbb
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:58:54 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Holi
Message:
'Strong feelings' means that you are alive.
Pick something you like to do and focus on it and find people you like and have fun with them.
You have time, find things you like and do them and enjoy being alive. Dont worry about things. relax.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:12:30 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: bill
Subject: Relaxing
Message:
Thank you for the good advice. I was just talking about this with two very close friends this morning.

One friend whose name is Joe likes to say to me 'Relax, Steve'.

I was sitting on the floor and I asked Joe if I looked relaxed.

His answer was a yes and no.

He mentioned stress.

It didn't take me very long to figure out what my main cause of stress is right now.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 22:21:38 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Stress
Message:
Hi Steven,

You think you've got stress? Click here for a visual definition of stress

Now that's stress!

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 18:18:30 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jeez - imagine, a canine enema (nt)
Message:
the dog's doos ...
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:55:50 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Reply to Jim from a thread below (ot)
Message:
I am breaking a promise I made earlier, but I could not stand watching, while Jim appeared to be so lost and confused regarding his post below.

So, as Muhammad gained in power and entered Jerusalem he wanted to humiliate the Jews in a very bad way and that is why the mosque was built where it was.
Okay, this goes back a few centuries. But isn't the real problem that Muhammad already shoved his stupid new religion right in the face of another, older, already established stupid religion?
I mean, relly, is it some bizarre coincidence that Jerusalem, which was already long-established as the spiritual center for the Jews, somehow became a spiritual center for Islam?
Ha ha hahahahahhaa
Oh yeah, and while I'm telling jokes I've got a great one for you:
Well, it's not really a joke but it IS kind of funny....
Imagine that the Jews suddenly considered Mecca or Medina one of THEIR holy spots.
Too funny, eh?
Islam is a parasite religion. You know, I think all religion's false but that's not the point. Some religions kind of do their own thing and others, like Islam, simply glom onto other, already established faiths.

I don't find your post funny.

You Can FUCK OFF again.

When Islam entered Palestine in the 7th century, they did not force anyone to adapt to their religion, if you do some serious reading you will notice that the Islamic army did not put their sword into action to convert anyone. As far as Islam was concerned Judaism and Christianity were the religions of the book and they respected them. Notice that the 'TEMPLE' was not destroyed by the Islamic army. The Assyrian Empire did that about a thousand years ealier during the 7th century BC.

You think culture is irrelevant in the area? Were do think the famous song 'Between the rivers of Babylon ...' came from? It is 2500years old for Jesus, Mohamed and Mosses sake, Was written by some skinny ass Jew after the temple was destroyed and all the Jew were shipped to Babylon.

You really should get your head looked at regarding this issue.

What you are doing is comparing the culture 13 centuries ago with the way we live now. Wrong. The 7th century mid-east was nothing but a bunch of warring tribes. Muhammad greatest achievement as a military strategist was to unify all these tribes and give them a goal and a purpose.

Please do not bullshit me with your half-cocked argument. I have read the original history in the original language and made my own conclusions based on facts.

Without the Islamic Golden era were knowledge was spread from India to Europe we will be way back in the dark. Islam has produced some of the finest poets, philosophers, scientists, mathematicians, and astronomests..etc. The first university AL MUSTANSIRIA was established in Iraq, and while the British were still living in their mud huts, the City of Cordoba in Spain under the rule of the KALIFAS had streetlights.

The religion got corrupted which is true, but you probably did not know that they had democracy in the initial state of their development to elect who will be the leader. No, ofcourse you did not.

I am not defending Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.

And yes, if you go and look at the original draught at the end of the 19th century of the first Jewish conference where the guideline for ZIONISIM (which by the way was declared by the UN to be a racist movement) was first set, you will notice that part of Egypt, Palestine, Jordan, parts of Syria and Lebanon and Iraq, all make the promised land, and secretly the far extreme right parties in Israel dream of it. The Surrounding leaders of the Arab countries know this and that is why in the back of the head of each of them there is a second thought, will those people really attempt doing that.

Finally the claim of the Jews that Palestine is the Promised Land is a total bullshit. Again if you go and read your history, you will discover that three regions were originally selected. Argentina, South Africa and the mid-east. The latter was chosen finally because it made a nice story, plus the fucking British wanted a foot holds in the area. When the British Empire collapsed, the fucking Americans took over.

If you notice with your great wisdom, that not once during it's 50 years of existence did Israel made as much as throw a rock on Saudia Arabia. Yet the distance between the two is only minor. What does that tell? And to elighten you further. The Saudia Monarch is the guardian of the HARAMAIN or the two sacered temples.

Just as Islam has it's extremist, the Jews also do. They are called zealots.

When millions of people succumbs to the demand and stupid tactics of zealots, we have what is going on in the mid-east now.

Before I go, I have learned to respect people religions and believes and not to call them STUPID. It appears that you still have traces of premie superiority in you.

What is my stand on all of this, I think I made that clear somewhere else.

I have grown out of iy. I am a human that cares and values life as an opportunity to evolve, not to destroy.

Remember, my chair is mine. You are not gonna get it.

And as they say, have a nice day.

p.s. I just pulled a tooth, which is the second worst thing anyone can do to me.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 06:00:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Reply to Jim from a thread below (ot)
Message:
Salam:

I never said that Islam didn't spawn a vital culture. I just said that all religion's bullshit. Well, it might be bullshit but it's also the only bullshit we had for thousands of years and all our strengths and weaknesses are interwoven throughout.

I also don't think for a moment that people were stupid to believe religous leaders like Muhammed -- back then. But now is a different story. I think religion's overstayed its welcome. (Again, I don't hold my breath awaiting its demise. But I can dream, can't I?)

In the meantime, yeah, I don't care how wise or beautiful Islamic culture is. Fact is, I think Muhammad was wrong about being 'God's prophet.' I think the same way about Jesus, Moses and you name it.

Meanwhile, as we're talking about religious turf wars, I do think it's fair to point out that Islam did indeed glom onto Judaism. And that's a mess that's come home to roost ever since the jews started repopulating the 'holy land'.

It comes down to this: if you can accept the existence of the State of Israel, Arafat and crew have done all they could to fuck up the ultimate peace process. If you can't, they're freedom fighters and yes, sooner or later, just as the clery promise, the jews will be driven into the sea and Israel destroyed.

By the way, your idea that the arabs have a legitimate fear of Israeli expansionism is silly. As if. And to say that Palestine was not the 'promised land' of the jews -- in their minds, of course -- is silly too. I don't recall anything in the old testament about Buenos Aries.
Where you from anyway?

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:50:20 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Salam and Jim-----Who gives a flying fuck????? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 12:57:45 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's 'parity of esteem' (ot)
Message:
Jim: do you think that the Palestinians value their own lives as much as the Israeli's do? Do you think that Palestinians value their children's lives as much as Israeli's do?

Frankly, I think the answer to both question's is 'no'.

Thank you for making yourself clear, JIm.

Are you sureyou're not in a Zionist cult?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 13:04:20 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's 'parity of esteem' | reposted for clarity ot
Message:
Jim: do you think that the Palestinians value their own lives as much as the Israeli's do? Do you think that Palestinians value their children's lives as much as Israeli's do?

Frankly, I think the answer to both question's is 'no'.

JohnT: Thank you for making yourself clear, Jim. Perhaps you would care to let us know your views on this question as it applies to Arabic peoples in general?

Are you sure you're not in a Zionist cult?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:37:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Oh please.....
Message:
I posted a lot of stuff since your last post, John. Some my own and some articles and news analysis.

And this is all you can say in response?

Look, I personally don't give a shit if Israel exists. Just another 'holy land' to me.

But I do care that the country which was granted the right to exist over fifty years ago by the U.N. has a right to fend for itself fairly. That's my answer re your 'Zionist' accusation.

As for the other, well, discuss it. You asked for my opinion, I gave it. Now discuss it all, why don't you? Tell me how, no, the Israeils and Palestinians have exactly the same respect for human life as each other. Come on, I'm really interested in hearing your views on this.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 05:03:33 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What kind of racist generalization is that?
Message:
Jim, you said:

'Tell me how, no, the Israeils and Palestinians have exactly the same respect for human life as each other. Come on, I'm really interested in hearing your views on this.'

That is such an absurd broadbrush generalization with blatant racist demonization dripping from it....
it doesn't deserve the dignity of an answer.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:11:40 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: My opinion
Message:
Israel is the pre-eminent racist, religionist, separatist, apartheid state in the world. By acts of terrorism, massacre, and forcible relocation, it removed hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people from their towns and their land, and denied them any right of return. Whatever villages, towns, homes, farms, and other properties were considered useful were taken over by Jews; everything else was bulldozed and destroyed, all with the US's support and sanction. Period.
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:36:30 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Who gets the last chair?
Message:
Gerry, et al:

The larger issue, which is not so easily resolved as the blame game, is whether 'human rights' are really 'national rights.' That is, if a 'people' has no country or territory to call its own how can it guarantee fundamental 'inalienable' rights? There was no resolution for the Jews, as the prototypical wandering people, until they established a nation of their own. Unfortunately they had to co-opt it from the Palestinians who then became a 'homeless people.' They need to find a way to share nation status, and give up the religious intransigence that characterizes the dispute. The Palestinian leadership is foolish not to have done so yet, given the concessions offered by the current Israeli government. They don't seem to know what the real stakes are, convinced they can somehow win the game of musical chairs without sharing the last seat. There are other seats being shared, BTW... some, like Switzerland, quite successfully.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:25:43 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Million Man March Retrospective
Message:
It's been running all day, with off and on local TV coverage down on the National Mall. People seem well-behaved, though there was a good deal of chanting 'Farrikan for President' when the minister spoke. What seems really scary to me is how the Unification Church got to bankroll this retrospective. How did that coalition form, and what does it mean (cringe, shudder)?

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:30:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: It's like an Automatic Cult Generator (nt)
Message:
ffffff
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 17:03:19 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh please.....
Message:
Jim:

Tell me how, no, the Israeils and Palestinians have exactly the same respect for human life as each other.

I have no idea how to guage this fairly, or what it would mean if I could. Did black slaves in the South value their lives as much as their white masters valued theirs? Probably not. And does sacrificing your life mean you don't value it highly, or does it mean you do? I think you can make a pretty good argument that, as religions go, Islam (at least as it is practiced) is somewhat 'rudimentary.' It has never gone through a Reformation, as have both Judaism and Christianity. The Palestinians seem to be particularly intransigent... not unlike some Irish Catholic militants. 'Traditional' cultures tend to value individualism less, at least as we perceive it. I should add that I have had Islamic roommates and found them to be much easier to get along with than most people from a Christian or Jewish background. They also tend to be more loyal as friends, again in my experience.

By the way, Max Weber studied the process of 'rationalization' that leads to the gradual dissolution of religious conviction and orientation. He felt it was irreversible, but wasn't exactly celebrating. And there's also the matter of secular 'religions' like Marxism. Look at what the 'fundamentalist' Marxists did in Cambodia.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 11:36:19 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Reply to Jim from a thread below (ot)
Message:
Jim

Glom- steal, take

I said before that Mohamed was thought to have been brought up by a Jewish holyman/priest. This is a controversial issue and I would not dare to ask a Mullah that question.

The saying from the Koran are thought to have come from this character.

If you do not like what Mohammed did to the Jews 13 centuries ago, tough tities. I can not either. The fact remains, tribal war was an everyday thing at the time, and you are still trying to judge the past in present day’s standards. Does not work.

You put to much emphasis on Arafat. He is nothing more than a puppet in the hands of the Saudis and the Kuwaitis. They pay him. At one time he was an honest freedom fighter, put then it got into his head that as long as he is leading a group of armed militia he may as well take advantage of the situation. His dreams came through at last with the emergence of the Territory of Palestine. As far as I am concerned, Arafat is no better than another dictator, but unfortunately, the Palestinians have no one to replace him. I am not sure what or how do Israel and the west wants the political system to be in Palestine. It is very likely that they want a puppet to lead, so as to be able to control this country better. Democracy, ha, what a joke. Not in the mid-east.

You seem to think I am jockeying about Israel expansionism. I do not. It is not a joke. That IS A FACT.

When I said that there were other places that were looked at above from Palestine, I thought that was a common Knowledge. Obviously it is not. You are a bit thick are not you when it come to this

And to say that Palestine was not the 'promised land' of the Jews -- in their minds, of course -- is silly too. I don't recall anything in the Old Testament about Buenos Aries.

I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or what?

Where was the information from? years ago I did some investigation as to the origin of Islam and the subject of Zionism. Unfortunately I do not have access to my books nor I have contact with people that know about it. But if you are dying to know, why do not you visit the site:

http://www.jamiat.org.za/home.html

and e-mail them. My advice is to behave when talking to them.

Also visit this forum and see how long you will last there.

http://www.salam-shalom.net/salam-shalom/salamforum1.htm

Lastly, See what goes in the Jewish mind,

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/zion.html.

The argument of weather a religion is good or bad can go on forever. What concerns me is when religion becomes politics. The west is lucky because the laws are made through a democratic process. In countries where tradition is as old as the earth that you walk on, separation is impossible. Myths, religion and tradition that go back thousands of year rule the mid-east. That is the beauty of the place and also its curse.

I always thought that the mid-east is the spiritual whore of mankind. Has been rapped so many times for so long that the victim has become the criminal. Fucking profound shit statement in-it.

Sorry, I do not trust you enough to tell you were I am from.

p.s. While on the subjecy of religion. Do you think 'Rawatisim' will be a common religion in 500 years from now, or will it be so odscure that the only info that is avaliable is what have been salvaged from this site. What would you call it? Cyber Archiology.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 09:24:51 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Reply to Jim from a thread below (ot)
Message:
Jim:

Haven't a thing to say about Islam, but was unable to answer a post you made below concerning a rowing machine. Took the weekend off to participate in a 7000 rider strong 100 mile bike ride on the Eastern Shore of the Chesapeake. Some friends of mine did it in about 4 hours, but it took me more like 5.5. Had a great time though. No crashes and my legs feel like tree trunks.

As to rowing, the Concept II Model C rowing machine, with the internet connection costs about $850, but I got a used one for about $300 less. It is still the standard in rowing machines, but there are two others that have been getting good press: RowPerfect and WaterRower. Both are more expensive than the Concept IIC, and there aren't enough to have much of a used market yet. Seriously, rowing is an excellent exercise... but it's dauntingly strenuous. I look at cycling as a vacation from rowing.

--Scott 'Back to Nature Rowing Society' T.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:21:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Where's your 'OT -- (ot)' Scott? (ot, ot, ot)
Message:
Thanks, Scott.

Well I've got to do something.......

I've got an exercise bike that I ride a bit ever couple of months. I'll get all into it and then somehow the habit breaks. Terrible, huh?

Maybe it needs a tv.....

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 18:06:07 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My suggestion
Message:
Jim,

Just get yourself a 12 or 15 pound dumbell and start with some curls and presses, first with the left hand, then the right. Throw in some pushups and crunches. Start out easy, don't overextend yourself. As time passes, you should be able to do more repetitions and sets of this. In my own experience, this is the easiest way. And most economical.

But, if the bike's right there in the apartment, and you're still not getting on it, you probably won't pick up the dumbell either. So, I figure, why spend a fortune on equipment if you're never going to use it? Serious. I look at my dumbell everyday, and pick it up maybe once a month, and sometimes even excercise regularly for a whole week! But the beauty is that it didn't cost an arm and a leg, and hardly takes up any room at all.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 01:36:00 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: My suggestion
Message:
Jerry:

But, if the bike's right there in the apartment, and you're still not getting on it, you probably won't pick up the dumbell either. So, I figure, why spend a fortune on equipment if you're never going to use it? Serious. I look at my dumbell everyday, and pick it up maybe once a month, and sometimes even excercise regularly for a whole week! But the beauty is that it didn't cost an arm and a leg, and hardly takes up any room at all.

I too have a set of dumbells that I almost never use. Competition is what keeps me up and going. Not always competition against others, though that plays a part, but competition with myself. This is one reason the Concept II thing works. You can log on any time and join a 2K race, and times are entered in a world ranking by age and weight class. Some of the new software will record your entire race so that you can actually race against yourself. Haven't tried it yet, but I understand it works. The only problem I had with cycling was that it was morbid above the waist. I tend to alternate between cycling and rowing.

The other thing that keeps me going is addiction to the endorphines. Unfortunately you can't get the hit more than once a day, because you'd wear yourself out overtraining. Weight or resistance training seems to produce the most endorphines, but I still get a hit from an intense interval session (what used to be called 'wind sprints').

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 16:41:02 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Rowing machines (ot/OT).
Message:
Jim:

If anything, rowing is even more boring than riding a bike trainer, though there is some new 'virtual training' software that may make things a bit more interesting. It'll work on a bike trainer with some modification, and should be available for all of the big three rowing machines soon. I also got a pair of wirelees headphones that transmit from the stereo or the TV and I just swap out two sets of NiMH AAA batteries. Mind you, there's not much room for anything other than exercise equipment and bikes in my apartment. My roommate even has a kayak, but a racing scull just won't fit. Well,... maybe if I knocked a hole in the wall between the bedroom and living room...

URL for FitCentric virtual training software:

http://www.fitcentric.com/

Concept II website:

http://166.82.35.96/concept2/c2web/switchboard.asp

RowPerfect:

http://www.rowperfect.com/

WaterRower:

http://www.waterrower.com/

So far, if you want to compete against others the Concept II is the only way to go. The RowPerfect may be able to standardize to the same standard, but because the WaterRower uses fluid rather than air resistance it'll probably never be a player in the competitive indoor rowing market, which is huge. The world champion indoor rower is the same guy who won the Olympic single sculling gold, Rob Waddell. Indoor rowing has become sort of an international mania.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:04:11 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: complaint letter generator--works great!
Message:
My complaint about Lord Sat Guru MaharajJi
As a citizen of this country, which I believe in and which I have seen Lord Sat Guru MaharajJi tear apart, I must bring fresh leadership and even-handed tolerance to the present controversy. Read on, gentle reader, and hear what I have to say. Given a choice of having MaharajJi cast the world into nuclear holocaust or having my bicuspids extracted sans Novocaine, I would embrace the pliers, purchase some Polident Partials, and call it a day. If one needs a sign that he is delirious, consider that his pranks are not an abstract problem. They have very concrete, immediate, and unpleasant consequences. For instance, ancient Greek dramatists discerned a peculiar virtue in being tragic. MaharajJi would do well to realize that they never discerned any virtue in being cocky.
His reasoning is circular and therefore invalid. In other words, he always begins an argument with his conclusion (e.g., that my bitterness at him is merely the latent projection of libidinal energy stemming from self-induced anguish) and therefore -- not surprisingly -- he always arrives at that very conclusion. MaharajJi still labors under the outmoded pretense that he is a martyr for freedom and a victim of nepotism. But what, you may ask, does any of that have to do with the theme of this letter, viz., that those who think that every word that leaves his mouth is teeming with useful information should think again? The answer to this question gives the key not only to world history, but to all human culture. I maintain that those who make a big deal out of nothing do us all a great injustice, even though that presupposes a dialectical intertwinement to which an ornery turn of mind is impervious.
He needs to stop living in denial. He needs to wake up and realize that his smears manifest themselves in two phases. Phase one: dismantle the guard rails that protect society from the sexist elements in its midst. Phase two: siphon off scarce international capital intended for underdeveloped countries. I agree that MaharajJi's acolytes are stampeding happily and mindlessly toward the precipice of unctuous egotism. But I also think that at no time in the past did what I call soulless scary vagabonds shamble through the streets of cities, demanding rights they imagine some supernatural power has bestowed upon them. What I mean to say is that I am deliberately using colorful language in this letter. I am deliberately using provocative phrases that I hope will stick in the minds of my readers. I do ensure, however, that my words are always appropriate and accurate and I have clearly explained how, last summer, I attempted what I knew would be a hopeless task. I tried to convince MaharajJi that the disorganized aspect of his quips will create a stir between tasteless misers and the morally crippled public at large. As I expected, MaharajJi was unconvinced. I close this letter along the same lines it opened on: Some deep void within Lord Sat Guru MaharajJi makes it necessary for him to dump effluent into creeks, lakes, streams, and rivers and our minds!!!'
---------------------------

this letter was automatically computer generated for you by Scott Pakin's complaint letter generator, found for your convenience on the WorldWideWeb. No two letters alike! amazing accuracy! no need to get your emotions stirred up in order to vent. feel free to blanket MJ's email page at his website with the products of this device! use his real world real estate address to convey your sentiments directly to his front door! we take no responsibilty! the computer did it! blame the machine!!

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:10:37 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Remarkable! Here's a beaut ...
Message:
Get yours from here

My complaint about God Almighty

Even as I sit here, I can't believe I'm writing this. I've never been one to voice my opinions in such a public manner. But after learning that God Almighty wants to
promote racial superiority doctrines, ethnic persecution, imperialist expansion, and genocide, I felt I at least had to set a few things straight. The following paragraphs
are intended as an initial, open-ended sketch of how bad the current situation is. If one dares to criticize even a single tenet of his deeds, one is promptly condemned
as self-satisfied, scummy, immature, or whatever epithet he deems most appropriate, usually without much explanation. What's more, there is no such thing as evil in
the abstract. It exists only in the evil deeds of evil persons such as God. I will not say what is right and what is wrong when it comes to his statements. But I will say
one thing: He says that mediocrity and normalcy are ideal virtues. That's a stupid thing to say. It's like saying that his mistakes are always someone else's fault.

One could argue that I have had enough of God's randy practices. But there's the rub; God has recently been going around claiming that his zingers won't be used for
political retribution. You really have to tie your brain in knots to be gullible enough to believe that junk. Please don't ask me to scorn and abjure reason. I simply can't
do that. Maybe it's just me, but don't you think that God's effusions are just another signpost marking our long, steep cultural descent? God's doctrines are not an
abstract problem. They have very concrete, immediate, and unpleasant consequences. For instance, God maintains that abhorrent oafs are inherently good, sensitive,
creative, and inoffensive. Perhaps it would be best for him to awaken from his delusional narcoleptic fantasyland and observe that he claims that we should all bear
the brunt of his actions. Well, I beg to differ. God and his helpers are fastidious loathsome sybarites. This is not set down in complaint against them, but merely as
analysis.

It is literally the case that his grievances, while ideologically grounded in a rhetoric and practice of despotism, are surrounded by a cloak of secrecy and 'plausible
denial'. While this lighthearted statement adds sorely needed humor to an otherwise tense situation, I suppose it's predictable, though terribly sad, that pestilential
shameless tyrants with stronger voices than minds would revert to sexist behavior. But it's time that a few facts had a chance to slip through the fusillade of hype.
What's my problem, then? Allow me to present it in the form of a question: What is it about our society that makes vicious autocrats like God desire to confuse,
disorient, and disunify? I once asked God that question -- I am still waiting for an answer. In the meantime, let me point out that God got into a snit the last time I
pointed out that uncouth pettifoggers and people of similar psychological type are often inspired by his positions. That shouldn't surprise you when you consider that
every time he tries, God gets increasingly successful in his attempts to abet a resurgence of scurrilous quislingism. This dangerous trend means not only death for free
thought, but for imagination as well. Before I move on, I just want to state once more that when God hears anyone say that he is out of touch with reality, his answer
is to con us into believing that we're supposed to shut up and smile when he says whiney things. That's similar to taking a few drunken swings at a beehive: it just
makes me want even more to demand a thoughtful analysis and resolution of our problems with God.

Isn't it odd that huffy devil-worshippers, whose pugnacious lifestyle will biologically or psychologically engineer manipulative Philistines to make them even more
self-pitying than they already are eventually, are immune from censure? Why is that? This is not a question that we should run away from. Rather, it is something that
needs to be addressed quickly and directly, because there are three fairly obvious problems with God's scare tactics, each of which needs to be addressed by any
letter that attempts to help you reflect and reexamine your views on God. First, that statement can be most easily defended, since it is not quantitative, but qualitative.
Second, there are certainly signs that God is becoming increasingly meddlesome. And third, you should not ask, 'How sophomoric can God be?', but rather,
'Whatever happened to good sportsmanship?'. The latter question is the better one to ask, because God wants nothing less than to befuddle the public and make sin
seem like merely a sophisticated fashion, hence his repeated, almost hypnotic, insistence on the importance of his misinformed publicity stunts. The mean-spirited and
slovenly nature of God's rejoinders should indicate to us that something needs to be done. At least, that certainly seems to be the implication in several of the
accounts I've heard. I mean, really. Is there, or is there not, a disaffected judgemental plot to legitimize the fear and hatred of the privileged for the oppressed,
organized through the years by obtrusive curmudgeons? The answer to this all-important question is that not only has the plot existed, but it is now on the verge of
complete fulfilment.

While perhaps offensive to some readers, only a direct quote can fully convey the spiteful nature and content of God's writings: 'Attention, functionaries! Your orders
are to lead me down a path of pain and suffering, and to do so at any cost.' In case you have any doubts, God pompously claims that all any child needs is a big
dose of television every day. That sort of nonsense impresses many people, unfortunately. Whether or not you realize this, I reject his demands. (Actually, this theme
has been struck before, but that's not important now.) God's ultimata are so jackbooted that if allowed to go unanswered, their final cost would be incalculable. The
moral of the story: The word 'honesty' does not exist in God Almighty's vocabulary.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:44:48 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Bizarre!I looked up 1)scurrilous,2)Quislingism
Message:
1)using coarse language; being vulgar or evil, ex.: impostors who used religious exterior to rob people.

2) after a Norwegian named Quisling who collaborated with the Nazis: A state of being which includes traitorism and collaboration.

(Sorry, only from Webster's not Oxford)

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:07:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: You won't believe what I got for 'Prem P. Rawat'!
Message:
I am going to make this short but sweet: That's just one side of the coin. The other side is that Mr. Prem P. Rawat has commented that despotism is a viable and vital objective for our nation's educational institutions. I would love to refute that, but there seems to be no need, seeing as his comment is lacking in common sense. As a preliminary, I want to stop defending the catty status quo and, instead, implement a bold, new agenda for change. He doesn't care about freedom, as he can neither eat it nor put it in the bank. It's just a word to him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that Rawat has managed to elude any direct ties to specific acts of negligence -- no small feat considering his history? After being called 'fork-tongued asinine menaces' a hundred times or so by him and his adulators, my friends and I have reached the conclusion that the objection may still be raised that freedom must be abolished in order for people to be more secure and comfortable. At first glance, this sounds almost believable. Yet the following must be borne in mind: If he got his way, he'd be able to sacrifice children on the twin altars of authoritarianism and greed. Brrrr! It sends chills down my spine just thinking about that. Mr. Prem P. Rawat places his indelible imprimatur upon a form of pessimism that is fundamentally, pervasively, and inescapably morbid. May we never forget this if we are to deny Rawat and his death squads a chance to make rapacious rapscallions out to be something they're not.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 09:42:46 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: I input 'Jim Heller' and I got this!
Message:
Jim Heller has had his say, and this is mine. Note that some of the facts I plan to use in this letter were provided to me by a highly educated person who managed to escape Jim's psychotic indoctrination and is consequently believable. His prophecies express themselves in thousandfold manifestations, with one of Jim's loyalists in despair and hopelessness, with another in ill will, anger, and indignation, with these diabolic spouters in indifference, and with those in furious excesses. There are two flaws with his comments: 1) I, hardheaded cynic that I am, must indisputably add my voice to the chorus of those who create a world in which revanchism, propagandism, and irrationalism are all but forgotten, and 2) his hirelings have learned their scripts well, and the rhetoric comes gushing forth with little provocation.

Verily, fetishism is classically a hodgepodge of deeds crafted for mass appeal. But what, you may ask, does any of that have to do with the theme of this letter, viz., that he cannot completely conceal his true animus and inspiration? Before you answer, let me point out that I believe I have found my calling. My calling is to open students' eyes, minds, hearts, and souls to the world around them. And just let him try and stop me. Jim's allegations present us with a riddle: Why does he want to excoriate attempts to bring questions of colonialism into the (essentially apolitical) realm of pedagogy in language and writing? While I don't know the answer to that particular question, I do know that he should think about how his press releases lead disgusting spongers to bribe the parasitic with the earnings of the productive. If Jim doesn't want to think that hard, perhaps he should just keep quiet. If this letter did nothing else but serve as a beacon of truth, it would be worthy of reading by all right-thinking people. However, this letter's role is much greater than just to take a strong position on his pranks, which, after all, pose a threat to personal autonomy and social development.

To be blunt, when people say that bigotry and hate are alive and well, they're right. And Jim is to blame. He dreams of a time when he'll be free to impose tremendous hardships on tens of thousands of decent, hard-working individuals. That's the way he's planned it, and that's the way it'll happen -- not may happen, but will happen -- if we don't interfere, if we don't expose injustice and puncture prejudice. When Jim tells us that everything is happy and fine and good, he somehow fails to mention that he fears nothing more than the truth. He fails to mention that he has become so morally and ideologically degraded, so acclimated to sadism and tribalism, that he wants to work both sides of the political fence. And he fails to mention that he says he's going to help what I call conniving knuckleheads back up their prejudices with 'scientific' proof in the blink of an eye. Is he out of his logorrheic mind? The answer is fairly obvious when you consider that if he were as bright as he thinks he is, he'd know that he is willing to promote truth and justice when it's convenient. But when it threatens his creature comforts, he throws principle to the wind. To put a little finer edge on the concept, if I seem a bit self-pitying, it's only because I'm trying to communicate with Jim on his own level.

Although his overt voyeurism has declined, a covert form still survives and may be an important factor in fueling a tendency and/or desire to lower this country's moral tone and depreciate its commercial integrity. As someone who enjoys brandishing words like 'antitintinnabularian' and 'labyrinthibranchiate' as a smoke screen to hide his artifices' inherent paradoxes, he must unquestionably be at a loss when someone presents a logical counterargument to his reckless effusions. Jim says that he could do a gentler and fairer job of running the world than anyone else. This is at best wrong. At worst, it is a lie.

He has an uncanny ability to totally miss the point of any given issue. Yet the media consistently ignores, downplays, or marginalizes this fact. I should add parenthetically that his reasoning is circular and therefore invalid. In other words, he always begins an argument with his conclusion (e.g., that the Queen of England heads up the international drug cartel) and therefore -- not surprisingly -- he always arrives at that very conclusion. On a closing note, I hope that this letter, while incomplete, informal, and having no authority except its own inner strength and conviction, has clearly demonstrated to you that I am not content to watch my liberties slip away even as I write this letter.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:01:57 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: I input 'Jim Heller' and I got this!
Message:
Mili,

I'm not concurring with your opinions in that post but I must congratulate you on a superb piece of writing. It was so British in it's humour. For someone for whom English is not a first language that was astounding.

Cheers
Hal

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 06:08:21 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: I input 'Jim Heller' and I got this!
Message:
'The answer is fairly obvious when you consider that if he were as bright as he thinks he is, he'd know that he is willing to promote truth and justice when it's convenient. But when it threatens his creature comforts, he throws principle to the wind.'--

If I didn't realize you were talking about Mr. Heller, I might think that the above quote from you is from yet another former premie talking about his former master. rawat merely uses principle for his convenience.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:01:17 (GMT)
From: Try Milbank, Tweed...
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: and Hadley.... pretty funny!
Message:
I kept my silence when Milbank, Tweed, & Hadley announced it wanted to lobotomize everyone caught thinking an independent thought. I did nothing when it tried to destroy the heart and fabric of our nation. But its latest plans for the future are the straw that breaks the camel's back. Instead of focusing on why I am not content to watch my liberties slip away even as I write this letter, I would like to remind people that I have a New Year's resolution for it: It should pick up a book before it jumps to the vile conclusion that it acts in the public interest. Should we be concerned that Milbank, Tweed, & Hadley wants to create a regime of wishy-washy directionless unilateralism? I'll answer that question for you: Yes, we should unquestionably be concerned, because my purpose here is not to offer true constructive criticism -- listening to the whole issue, recognizing the problems, recognizing what is being done right, and getting involved to help remedy the problem. Well, okay, it is. But I should point out that it has found a way to avoid compliance with government regulations, circumvent any further litigation, and make serious dialogue difficult or impossible -- all by trumping up a phony emergency. Milbank, Tweed, & Hadley contends that we're supposed to shut up and smile when it says fatuitous things. Sounds rather unconscionable, doesn't it? Well, that's Milbank, Tweed, & Hadley for you. As a parting thought, remember that Milbank, Tweed, & Hadley has been a faithful servant of disreputable interests for as long as I can remember.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:56:23 (GMT)
From: How 'bout
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ex-premie.org?
Message:
Ex-premie.org's mottos are so rife with ignorance, erroneous information, and poorly conceived notions of gnosticism that I hardly know where to begin. Even disregarding obvious errors like its insistence that gormless astrologers are all inherently good, sensitive, creative, and inoffensive, the fallacies of its claims are glaring to those of us who have educated ourselves about the implications of masochism. If you disagree with my claim that it tries to make its prank phone calls more palatable by wrapping them in rhetoric about the need to protect the interests of the disadvantaged and the downtrodden, then read no further. This seems so obvious, I am amazed there is even any discussion about it. Ex-premie.org's hypocrisy is transparent. Even the least discerning among us can see right through it. You know, it strikes me that I do not propose a supernatural solution to the problems we're having with ex-premie.org. Instead, I propose a practical, realistic, down-to-earth approach that requires only that I exercise all of our basic rights to the maximum.

I am not up on the latest gossip. Still, I have heard people say that nothing appears more plausible at first sight, nor more ill-founded and unconscionable upon closer inspection, than ex-premie.org's insults. But let's not lose sight of the larger, more important issue here: ex-premie.org's insufferable sound bites. Some will say I exaggerate, but, actually, I'm being quite lenient. I didn't mention, for example, that if my memory serves me correctly, I receive a great deal of correspondence from people all over the world. And one of the things that impresses me about it is the massive number of people who realize that I see how important ex-premie.org's closed-minded vindictive goals are to its compeers and I laugh. I laugh because it strikes me as amusing that it complains about people who do nothing but complain. Well, news flash! Ex-premie.org does nothing but complain.

After I operate on today's real -- not tomorrow's ideal -- political terrain, I know that everyone will come to the dismayed conclusion that I stated at the beginning of this discussion: I must part company with many of my peers when it comes to understanding why ex-premie.org frequently writes self-contradictory, nonsensical 'sentences' that are actually just phrases or sentence fragments filled with grammatical, spelling, capitalization, and punctuation errors. My peers claim that ex-premie.org formulates its rodomontades in a precarious latticework between the profligate and the disgraceful. While this is indisputably true, I insist we must add that if the human race is to survive on this planet, we will have to give our young people the values that will inspire them to detail the specific steps and objectives needed to thwart ex-premie.org's prodigal little schemes. Under these conditions, ex-premie.org can fool some of the people all of the time. It can fool all of the people some of the time. But it can't fool all of the people all of the time. Ex-premie.org's backers don't worry me, since they're generally not in positions to make significant decisions (except maybe 'right shoe on right foot'). I'm not going to say why; we all know the reason.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that the longer ex-premie.org wears the mask of sesquipedalianism, the harder it is to remove? My general thesis is that ex-premie.org keeps telling us that merit is adequately measured by its methods and qualifications. Are we also supposed to believe that it has a 'special' perspective on interdenominationalism which carries with it a 'special' right to commit acts of immorality, dishonesty, and treason? I'll talk a lot more about that later, but first let me finish my general thesis: Ex-premie.org asserts that children should get into cars with strangers who wave lots of yummy candy at them. Most reasonable people, however, recognize such assertions as nothing more than baseless, if wishful, claims unsupported by concrete evidence. Take it from me: Ex-premie.org pompously claims that it has been robbed of all it does not possess. That sort of nonsense impresses many people, unfortunately. This screams of the old belief that offensive improvident hell-raisers are merely hidebound rascals. Yet I undeniably wouldn't want to pigeonhole people into predetermined categories. I would, on the other hand, love to knock some sense into ex-premie.org. But, hey, I'm already doing that with this letter.

Are you beginning to get the picture here? So ex-premie.org thinks that the average working-class person can't see through its chicanery? Interesting viewpoint. Here's another: I am not trying to save the world -- I gave up that pursuit a long time ago. But I am trying to tell you a little bit about it and its ignominious policies. Call me old-fashioned, but given a choice of having ex-premie.org propitiate ribald scoundrels for later eventualities or having my bicuspids extracted sans Novocaine, I would embrace the pliers, purchase some Polident Partials, and call it a day.

Ex-premie.org says that it would sooner give up money, fame, power, and happiness than perform a jaded act. That's its unvarying story, and it's a lie: an extremely vicious and nugatory lie. Unfortunately, it's a lie that is accepted unquestioningly, uncritically, by ex-premie.org's yes-men.

Unlike ex-premie.org's inclinations, my own nostrums are not vague and undefined. Sadly, lack of space prevents me from elaborating further. Let's get reasonable; I certainly hope that the truth will prevail and that justice will be served before ex-premie.org does any real damage. Or is it already too late? I don't pretend to know the answer, but I do know that ex-premie.org's method (or school, or ideology -- it is hard to know exactly what to call it) goes by the name of 'ex-premie.org-ism'. It is an inarticulate and avowedly sadistic philosophy that aims to assail all that is holy.

I, for one, contend that ex-premie.org will indubitably hinder economic growth and job creation quicker than you can double-check the spelling of 'mediterraneanization'. I base this confident prediction on, among other things, the fact that I wonder what would happen if it really did make serious dialogue difficult or impossible. There's a spooky thought. During the first half of the 20th century, parasitism could have been practically identified with propagandism. Today, it is not so clear who can properly be called pesky freaks.

It doesn't do us much good to become angry and wave our arms and shout about the evils of ex-premie.org's witticisms in general terms. If we want other people to agree with us and join forces with us, then we must address the legitimate anger, fear, and alienation of people who have been mobilized by ex-premie.org because they saw no other options for change. And what of it? I find that some of ex-premie.org's choices of words in its demands would not have been mine. For example, I would have substituted 'venal' for 'chronocinematography' and 'disrespectful' for 'lithochromatographic.' Anyone who follows today's debates on escapism and, by happenstance, is also familiar with ex-premie.org's disruptive attitudes, is struck by that old truism: Ex-premie.org will probably respond to this letter just like it responds to all criticism. It will put me down as 'nefarious' or 'repugnant'. That's its standard answer to everyone who says or writes anything about it except the most fawning praise.

On the other hand, we must undoubtedly debate the efficacy of ex-premie.org's ultra-treasonous beliefs. Does that sound extremist? Is it too morally crippled for you? I'm sorry if it seems that way, but that's life. Let us postulate that there is no longer any room for hope. In that case, there are two types of people in this world. There are those who promote the crass double standards of unbridled scientists, and there are those who disabuse it of the notion that newspapers should report only on items it agrees with. Ex-premie.org fits neatly into the former category, of course. While I suspect that ex-premie.org has every right to its foolish opinions, I want to serve on the side of Truth. That may seem simple enough, but I will never give up. I will never stop trying. And I will use every avenue possible to oppose evil wherever it rears its misguided head. Some organizations are responsible and others are not. Ex-premie.org falls into the category of 'not'. All of this once again proves the old saying that it seems a bit late in the day for ex-premie.org to help people see its immature obiter dicta for what they are.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:14:09 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: How 'bout
Subject: That sounds like a Wm. F. Buckley Bodice Ripper...
Message:
... my own nostrums are not vague and undefined. Sadly, lack of space prevents me from elaborating further.'

I would love to read the computer-generated nostrums.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 17:38:07 (GMT)
From: test
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: just testing
Message:
just testing
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 00:54:07 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Was I right, or was I right?? yesssssss!
Message:
now let's get those terminals humming and those printers churning! i say we storm the citadel! how many places can we bomb? malibu? EV? ELK? the po box? mj dot org on the email page? milibank,tweed, et al?
tee hee hee.i havent had this much fun in a long time!

pssst-anybody wanna t-p the residence this hallowe'en? toilet paper first, waterballoons second? rotten pumpkins third?? maybe a long distance catapult, from the next ridge over?? you can get the map from yahoo maps and driving directions up, from pacific coast highway and trancas canyon road.
we hide down in the gully and wait til he rolls down his plate glass bedroom wall.....

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 10:33:30 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: janet of venice
Subject: Was I right, or was I right?? yesssssss!
Message:
What have you guys been smoking?
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 09:04:59 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: go to cq's post and click the link to see
Message:
save this forfuture letters you may wish to generate about anybody or anything. wwarning--copy it while its on the screen or print it--you wont get the same letter twice if you leave and returrn and put in the same name.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:37:24 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Is That English You're Speaking?
Message:
On the way home from the satellite feed today, I saw a Jehovah's Witness standing with his publications and I stopped and talked with him for 15 minutes.

I had never talked with a JW before so I was curious. He was an OK guy in his thirties and we were having a decent conversation until I said 'I have one question to ask you. I've heard that if a Witness tries to leave the organization, the other members give him a really hard time. Is this true?'

He said 'The problem is that if I, for example, wanted to leave, it would shame the other members, so I would never do that.'

I asked him to explain that, but he just kept repeating the same sentence a few times.

I told him 'Your words are all understandable English words but you're not making any sense'.

He told me life was precious and that I was wasting his time.

Comments?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:11:42 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Is That English You're Speaking?
Message:
You're probably right. Sounds like to me he was speaking English. Could've been Canadian though.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:06:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: You asked for it, Scott
Message:
Once again, I am writing in response to Mr. Scott Talkington's declamations, and once again, I merely wish to point out that I find that empty-headed disgraceful deadheads are no different from parasitic vagabonds. To get right down to it, a great many of us don't want Talkington to up the ante considerably. But we feel a prodigious pressure to smile, to be nice, and not to object to his grotty grievances. He is like a broken record, using the same tired cliches about family and education and safer streets, yet he is entirely mistaken if he believes that there's no difference between normal people like you and me and whiney blowhards. I would undeniably like to comment on Talkington's attempt to associate plagiarism with ageism. There is no association. There is one final irony to my story. I once had a nightmare in which Mr. Scott Talkington was free to gain a virtual stranglehold on many facets of our educational system.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:48:09 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Is That English You're Speaking?
Message:
Steven,
You got off lightly - consider yourself lucky ----my encounter was much ,much weirder - and in my office of all places.Won't even bore you it was so weird.

Count your blessings he didn't want to engage any longer. That's *my* comment.

Love, Elaine

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:46:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: There's a book a colleague of mine wrote
Message:
It's called The Orwellian World of the Jehovah's Witnesses and it spells out their own history of bullshit and no-guff oppression.

What I don't get is that they've planned the end of the world at least three times in this century but have always cancelled.

So where'd the money go? They pay for an event, cancel it and keep the money? Doesn't seem right somehow ...

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:43:19 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Michael et al
Subject: To MD, another perspective entirely
Message:
Hi Michael,

I drop in on this page from time to time and I’ve read what you wrote a few months back as well as the present dialogue. I am (for full-disclosure purposes) a long-time “satisfied customer” of knowledge, as a profound, genuine, personal practice and Maharaji, both as a master/teacher generally and in my personal interplay and more than occasional close-up times with him over a 28-year period. And yes, I include all of that information on my résumé and all business correspondence. (A moment’s pause, as I duck some flying debris.) Knowledge and Maharaji have proven themselves to be the real deal to/for me on so many occasions and through so many eras (and errors) that I’d be foolish and true to neither my heart nor my intelligence to deny either.

But that’s me.

I don’t have any problem with anyone else having their own viewpoint or interpretation of anything, including M or K. I have friends or acquaintances at every conceivable point along the spectrum of perspectives on Maharaji, from none whatsoever through “he’s nice but boring” to “he loves to torture small animals” to “he is an embodiment of the pure and perfect energy that we call life.”

I have seen you harassed, harangued, berated, slandered, insulted and repeatedly dissed on this page by a lynch-mob mentality that, by and large, is the most extreme view on all of this. Why is it the most extreme? Because, with some exceptions of course, no other view but the party platform (M is a fraud with no gift, talent or intelligence, it’s all about $, M’s motivation is to fuck people’s minds, set loose hammer-wielding child abusers on the world and get new, groovy forms of transportation and space-age plumbing fixtures, all premies are blithering nitwits and anyone who disagrees with any of this is a hypnotized, apologist cultist} is ever tolerated. I never hear any premies I know in real life spouting militant abuse towards those who’ve made a different choice in their lives. Nor is that attitude promulgated by Maharaji, who shrugs and says, “People go through what they’ve gotta go through, if they want to come back, the door is open.”

This page represents a tiny (but loud) minority viewpoint. From the time I first saw this site, about three years ago, ‘til now, even with thousands and thousands of people along that spectrum I mentioned being online, the cast of characters is almost exactly the same. minus a few, plus a few more. Of course, posting addiction, which isn’t at all unique to this site, gives the impression of much greater activity. The fact is, this bring-the-demonic-Guru-down view doesn’t at all represent the feeling of 98% of the people who’ve received knowledge, both current and former practitioners. In case people here haven’t figured this simple fact out, that’s why they’re not chiming in.

Now, for whatever reason, you seem to have capitulated to this particular form of groupthink (I’m bitter, I wasted so many years, it was all just a big zero). Much of what goes on here is in the form of a bizarre cyber shooting gallery where the ducks are continually shot at until they start quacking or leave. And yes, of course premies have their own insidious forms of groupthink as well. I’ve always been frightened by too much we-thinking in any situation and have tried to avoid it as much as possible in my own brain and with my circle of friends.

Here are some examples of what you said, seemingly under far less duress and pressure to conform.

“As I spent more personal time with Maharaji, I became less in awe of him as a perfect master sitting on a stage, and got to know, respect and love him as a person – a very incredible, uniquely talented, and extremely intelligent human being.”

“The time I spent with Maharaji were important years in my life, and I continue to derive great benefit from the knowledge he taught me.”

“I must add, however, that although we differed on how best to proceed with his work in the future, Maharaji always treated me with great respect, dignity and love, not just while I worked with him, but also at the time of my departure. Even though we disagreed, I respect his right to make whatever interpretation he chooses. I am clear, after all, that it is his work.”

“When I was involved with Maharaji, I came to know him as a friend for whom I had great love. And love can be expressed in many ways. I wouldn’t characterize mine as devotional but it was love none the less. And it is out of respect for that love and appreciation for knowledge that I refuse to criticize Maharaji.”

The strongest “abuse” you refer to in your own personal interaction with Maharaji seems to be, “He hasn’t called, he hasn’t written.” Well, just out of curiosity, have you called him, have you written to him, asking how he’s doing? This murderous Milosevic of Malibu, this Napoleon of Nectar...that Genghis of the Ganges, that Barbarian of Bliss, that Stalin of Satchitanand.

I realize that being an OHM (Official Honcho of Maharaji) is/was perhaps as thankless and doomed a position as being the drummer of Spinal Tap, though you are no longer currently surging in that capacitor. (Apologies, Sig. Tesla)

You now seem to suggest, in a manner that throws fresh meat to the viciously drooling, that other than his family, Maharaji doesn’t care about anyone else. This is not at all what I’ve witnessed or felt from him over the years. He's treated me with great love and respect and I'm neither a money donor, OHM nor airplane salesman. Yes, he seems quite removed from personal dramas at times. True, Maharaji probably isn’t concerned whether Raoul Mendoza of Venezuela is getting his calcium but I’m quite sure he cares whether Raoul is getting serviced in the inspiration department as the seriousness with which he takes his work would clearly indicate. One would have to question your powers of observation or the temporary accuracy of your memory if you can’t recall that.

Are you really gonna tell me that, at the core of this whole megillah, Maharaji is sitting there rubbing his hands together thinking, “If I can only get Raoul Mendoza and all his friends to send me 70 pesos apiece, I’ll get that gold-plated oil tanker I’ve always lusted over? Is this your personal observation?

Here are more of your words from a few months ago and, boy, do they ring truer than this week’s.

“Why was I attracted to Maharaji and who do I think Maharaji is? To me, Maharaji is a teacher. A teacher of what? For me, I was searching for peace, inner harmony, love, and consciousness, and
the knowledge Maharaji spoke about sounded like the answer. And
guess what? For me, it was. In time, I discovered how masterful he
is in the domain he calls knowledge. By masterful I mean that he
embodies the experience. And I have countless personal experiences
in which I have witnessed that mastery in action. However, whether you consider him a god or a human being, it is still necessary to have some confidence that he is capable of teaching you about knowledge (that logic applies in any student-teacher relationship). And it is my experience that it is necessary to meditate regularly.

Is Maharaji a fraud? To me, he is not. He promised that he would
teach me how to experience knowledge and he did, to my great satisfaction.” - Michael Dettmers

These sound like the words of someone who has moved to another point in their life, yet has integrated what has gone on before in a healthy, sane way. Not the sad, stuck, feedback-loop state of continuing to debate the closing of the ashrams 20 years ago, the possible implications of boat ownership and who stole the spatula from the housemother and/or didn’t have proper dental work in Cincinnati (that they never requested). Perhaps breathing the fetid air of Ye Olde Forum for a little too long and being relentlessly ragged on (remind yourself by who) has led you into this peculiar, possibly ill-considered and unbalanced alliance with a mob mentality that could consider possible new variations on the acronym, DLM.

Dim the Light Machine
Diss Lard Mercilessly
Delhi Ladhu Merchants
Darshan Lapsed Memory
Deface the Legacy of the Master
Deny any Love of Maharaji

Maybe this is your way of saying, “No mas!”, the path of least resistance is to agree with these people. Maybe this is what you truly felt all along and everything you said and wrote before was pure crap and you never felt any of it. Perhaps you’re seeing things at the moment through an oddly tinted pair of glasses that aren’t even your own. I’ve been there.

I have know way of knowing. I just thought you should consider these things.

By the way, spin is spin and reading the Elan Vital FAQ or reading Gore/Bush press releases are virtually indistinguishable experiences. I give equal weight to all the above. None. Spinning is usually just putting the most acceptable, positive, digestible take on anything. Don't be fooled for an instant though, that almost everything you read here isn't thoroughly spun. Here, it's exactly the opposite. Every word or action, (real, rumored or completely invented) of Maharaji is taken, mangled, multiplied (often by years of distance) and presented in the worst possible light, irrespective of its origin, context or validity. Oh, it's spun all right. It's merely the difference between blue cotton candy and a strychnine parfait.

best to you and all, Danny

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:45:36 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: To MD, another perspective entirely
Message:
Read your post with interest, my sentiments entirely. I have been dipping in to this site out of interest recently and have posted a few times.

I also have noticed over the past few weeks that altho there seems to be quite a lot of activity after a while one notices it is the same few that seem to be involved. It was interesting to hear that it has been this same core group of people over the past 3 years.

I personally do not have a problem with whether someone enjoys K and M or not. To me, people are people and I do not put someone in a box of whether they are in to K or not. A person is worth his own worth irrespective of what his personal beliefs are.

The one dis-service that the people on this site do to themselves is that their greivances are mainly taking the form of insults and slanging matches. And, if you join in with coming from a different slant but voicing an intelligent and reasonable aspect, you are immediately harrassed by insults and belligerance.

And as for Michael Dettmers, I was not too surprised to read his posts or to find out that he is an active participant here. I was living in Miami at the time of DECA, altho not personally involved myself. I did at various times have to sit and listen to Michael deliver 'satsangs' and, please forgive me Michael, I really did find him to be incredibly pompous, pedantic and boring and often wondered why M had him around at all.

So there you go .... glad to hear another voice of reason.

Take care.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:50:22 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Tell me, Eric
Message:
Despite that you found Michael's 'satsang' pompous and boring, although I fail to understand why that viewpoint makes his participation here any more or less surprising to you (care to explain?), what do you think of the substance of what Michael has had to say so far? Do you agree with it?
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 15:55:14 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Eric, you disappoint me
Message:
Eric,

You complain that so many people on this Forum express their opinions by making insults, and yet, in the very next paragraph, you insult someone personally in very harsh and ugly terms. Someone might get the impression that you are a hypocrite, Eric. Surely, you don't want to be perceived that way.

I am disappointed that when I responded to your last posting here, you did not acknowledge the points I made. One of the points was my argument that you did not accurately describe Rawat's reasons for closing down the ashrams. You said it was because the ashram premies were abusing the system and it wasn't working. I responded by telling you that my impression was that Rawat closed the ashrams because they were a financial burden, then I noted that neither you nor I were directly involved with Rawat's decision.

But in the meantime, Michael Dettmers made a post that provides the explanation. He was directly involved and he let us know that Rawat closed the ashrams in the West because they had become a finanical liability. There were OSHA requirements and laws that required ashram premies to be medically insured and so forth, and this was too much of a financial burden. The ashrams were no longer an asset to Rawat and they were closed for that reason.

I think you may have learned something here, but you do not acknowledge it.

Of course, this is just one of many issues surrounding Mr. Rawat and his cult. But you seem to want to visit here every now and then, throw a few stones, and then run away and hide before anyone can retaliate.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 21:51:49 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Joe and Way
Subject: Would not want to disappoint
Message:
Yes, I agree, what I said regarding Michael did come across as an insult and I did ask for his forgiveness before I said it.

I just remember those past days when characters like him would get up and speak and they were among the many people that were around at that time that I personally could never relate to. Just as I could not relate to the majority of ashram premies, who seemed to think for some reason they were more evolved, more privileged, more eligible than the rest of us.

You see, for me, I thought it was great when M closed the ashrams down. I cheered. Just as I cheered when I heard Michael Dettmers wasn't around any more. I would really wonder how M could let institutions like the ashrams carry on and people who came across as Michael did run things.

One of the things I have thoroughly enjoyed about M over the years is his ability to change direction, to move on when things don't work. Why on earth would he want to create a situation that would cost even more money than the ashrams were already costing by continuing that system. All it had basically done was create an elitist system that separated ashram and non-ashram, with members of the non-ashram camp being considered to be spaced out and unworthy. And this was perpetuated by the ashram residents, not M.

Way, I have replied to you. I certainly do not mean to be rude and I don't want to throw stones and run away. I don't feel I am throwing stones anyway. Most of the time when I have posted here it has been to offer another perspective. This site is entitled 'Anything and Everything about Maharaji and his Followers' - so let's see all sides.

You guys might have your gripes about the past. These events that you mostly go on about are 20 years behind us now. That actually really astounds me that people can still be moaning about decisions they made, that did not work out for them, 20 years ago!

My foundation with M is based on practicing K. That's it. The rest it, if you lived in an ashram or not, if you go to events or not, if you buy videos or not, if you go to the satellite or not is irrelevant. Because at the end of the day it's really only about how you feel within yourself in your life.

I'm just having a bit of fun with this site. I'm not reallly on a mission to prove anyone right or wrong. Michael hasn't said anything that is particularly damming as far as I can see.

M does let people run with projects and made their own decisions I do know that. He is not monitoring every decision that is made in every part of the world at all times. He speaks over and over again about our need to be responsible. If people at DECA were treated badly it was really Michael's responsibility to have been aware that his staff needed taking care of better. Just as in any company the M.D. has a responsibility for the working welfare of his staff.

I have no fight with any of you I'm just in to healthy exchanges.
I remain a friend.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 14:55:24 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Would not want to disappoint
Message:
Eric,

Thanks for your response. Yes, you have responded to me and you have now continued the conversation, so I take back my disappointment in that regard.

Thanks also for the semi-apology for dissing Michael so personally. I hope you do not insult people so directly and personally in the future, even if you ask their forgiveness while you are doing it. If you don't like Jim's style, don't emulate it.

About the closing of the ashrams. I agree that it made perfect sense for Maharaji to close the ashrams when they became a burden instead of an asset. But that wasn't our argument, was it? The reasons behind the decision was what we were talking about. And I am again a bit disappointed that you do not simply acknowledge that it was not the premie's fault.

Which bring up my main complaint about your most recent post, and about posts from premies in general. Premies absolutely refuse to give Mr. Rawat any responsibility for the mistakes that have been made. It's silly. You specifically say that the elitist attitude of ashram premies was perpetuated by the premies themselves and 'not M.' No, no, no, no, no... Maharaji repeated told the ashram premies that householder premies could never realize Knowledge because only those fully dedicated to the Master would ever know that true devotion. Take off your rose-colored glasses. Please.

Your point about the hierarchy among premies. I think you will find that this continues very much so to this day, and is completely unavoidable in a cult. The members who are closer to the leader are much more priviledge that the other members - human nature and inevitable. I share your wish that this could be overcome, with the unity of life more manifested in human society, but that will take eons of further evolution. Mr. Rawat cannot do a damn thing about it.

Another objection to your latest post. You say that we exes are griping about the past, about events from 20 years ago. No, no, no, no, no... If Maharaji were not still perpetrating his personality cult, we would not be fighting here as we are. If current aspirants were given full disclosure, we would not be fighting here. If Elan Vital were not out-right lying in their CURRENT website, we would not be fighting here. If the people at ELK would stop talking about Mr. Rawat as if he is God in Human Form, we would not be fighting here. Please give us that credit. This is about the present, not just the past.

You say you are just having a bit of fun here and not on any kind of a mission about right or wrong. Well, I hope you will acknowledge what is right and what is wrong about what I have said here. If you do not want to, then I wish you would quit posting opinions that are so provocative toward real discussion.

Best wishes. I do accept the last word of your post as genuine.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 15:55:54 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: very well done post Way (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 07:13:12 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: Danny
Subject: To MD, another perspective entirely
Message:
To you I say what Maharaj Ji supposedly says about us, that is I simply shrug my shoulders and say people have to go through what they have to go through, if you wish to come back our door is always open to you. In addition we won't even ask you to contribute your lifes savings to us in return for our priceless spirtual wisdom.
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 04:13:35 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Thou Dost Protest Too Much Danny....
Message:
Funny, you seem to agree with us that it is a bunch of lies that Elan Vital is putting out in its FAQs, calling it 'spin', which would not exist without Maharaji's express pre-approval by the way, and then you end up sounding just like Elan Vital.

You are for 'full disclosure,' unless it's not what you want to hear, especially if it comes from dissatisfied customers of Maharaji, because you are a satisfied one.

Funny, too, how you spend two short paragraphs saying you have no complaints about Maharaji or knowledge, and then you spend at least 15 paragraphs attacking the motives and clairty of people who do. Hypocrisy is your very strong point, Danny.

By the way, if you say that 98% of the premies and ex-premies don't agree with what gets said here [your proof for this would be interesting to hear], why do you think there is NO open discussion on any of the premie websites, including Maharaji's? If it is so damn 'clear' that the premie position is so strong and favorable, why does ELK heavily censor what gets posted, and why isn't there any open discussion allowed? What is Maharaji afraid of?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:26:07 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Right on Danny!
Message:
Thanks Danny,

Especially when you say, 'The fact is, this bring-the-demonic-Guru-down view doesn’t at all represent the feeling of 98% of the people who’ve received knowledge, both current and former practitioners.'

With Knowledge you don't have to believe in anything. All you have to do is do it! There is no book to read, no funny haircuts, no special diets, no political stand, or weird clothes.

All I have to do is practice and get in touch with my inner shelter. Seems like a good deal to me too.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:32:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Does nothing embarrass you?
Message:
No wonder you post under the name of a cartoon character.

What a fool you are, Dog. What a complete and utter fool.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 22:17:57 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Does nothing embarrass you?
Message:
I truly and honestly value the experience of Knowledge. When I practice it makes me feel secure, and in touch with who I really am. It just plain feels good.

It does not embarrass me to say that. Sorry about that Jim.

In fact if more people cooled out with Knowledge in the Holy Land (a misnomer if there ever was one) maybe things could turn around there.

Like Roger eDrek I use a 'nom de plume' to avoid harassment.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 22:28:01 (GMT)
From: jIM
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Why not call yourself Deputy Ostrich?
Message:
Forget about Knowledge for a moment.

Are you able in the slightest to talk about Maharaji? Actually, I know the answer to that, having watched people try to talk with you about him for months now. The answer is 'no'. You are psychologically unable to talk about Maharaji in any meaningful way.

If you think I'm wrong, prove me wrong. Talk about Maharaji for juts one sentence that doesn't simply slide back into being about your mind-numbing Knowledge. You haven't done it yet, Dog. In fact, you've behaved exactly like, well, like a little house pet. Okay, that might look normal, healthy and natural to you but I've got news for you. People outside your cult would find that bizarre.

Whatever. Your cult is sailing into some very turbulent waters these days. At a certain point you might wake up and realize that, however much you like squeezing your eyeballs, there are other issues concerning Maharaji worth considering.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:47:55 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: jIM
Subject: Jim, what kind of a ponce are you? OK, here goes!
Message:
Forget about Knowledge for a moment.

Why? That's all I've ever talked about on this site. Ever notice that? Maybe I'm one of those guys that broke the monkey trap but still values the trinket. . . still values the trinket!

Are you able in the slightest to talk about Maharaji? Actually, I know the answer to that, having watched people try to talk with you about him for months now. The answer is 'no'. You are psychologically unable to talk about Maharaji in any meaningful way.

If it wasn't for Maharaji I wouldn't have Knowledge. So I'm grateful for that. The important thing for me is and always has been Knowledge, more exactly my experience of Knowledge. I think a lot of exes are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The baby is Knowledge.

Knowledge is a beautiful experience. It gives me safety and soothes my soul.

If you think I'm wrong, prove me wrong. Talk about Maharaji for juts one sentence that doesn't simply slide back into being about your mind-numbing Knowledge. You haven't done it yet, Dog. In fact, you've behaved exactly like, well, like a little house pet. Okay, that might look normal, healthy and natural to you but I've got news for you. People outside your cult would find that bizarre.

OK here's your one sentence. He's a rich guy from India that consistently gives A+ satsang and inspires me to meditate.

Whatever. Your cult is sailing into some very turbulent waters these days. At a certain point you might wake up and realize that, however much you like squeezing your eyeballs, there are other issues concerning Maharaji worth considering.

I don't have a cult, never have. Wouldn't want one. Don't have time.

Knowledge is a personal experience that I have been fortunate enough to recognize. Believe me, when I'm on my death-bed, I won't be thinking about my stuff, or my career, or my sex life, or any slights I may have received in this life. Can you guess what I'll be focussing on?

The Knowledge I have found is the God of Moses, Mohammed, Buddha and Jesus. And in my humble opinion, all human beings are sputteringly evolving toward this experience.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:56:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: That's it? Fine, here's your score then: FAIL
Message:
OK here's your one sentence. He's a rich guy from India that consistently gives A+ satsang and inspires me to meditate.

That doesn't look to me like a sentence about Maharaji that 'doesn't simply slide back into being about your mind-numbing Knowledge.'

You fail, Dog.

What a surprise, huh?

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:55:27 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, what is it now, you great pillock?
Message:
Who the fuck put you in charge? I though it was a good post. About a B+ at least. On second thought, I refuse your mark and give myself an A-.

And why don't you ever answer my questions? Like the one on the middle east, the one on evolution, the one on the monkey trap . . . ?

I give you an F for that.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 04:14:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Don't you get it? YOU JUST COULDN'T DO IT!
Message:
I don't know what questions you're referring to but I do know what happened with mine. I asked you -- pointedly, specifically, clearly as all get out -- to try to talk about Maharaji without mentioning so-called 'Knowledge'. You couldn't do it.

So what does that tell me? Lots. It tells me that he's trained you good, little puppy dog. He can get away with anything with suckers like you. All he's got to do is give you some of that 'A+' satsang (by the way, I'm not surprised he's going to score that hight when you give yourself grades like you have here). That's all it takes.

Ruff, ruff!

Ruff, ruff!

Ruff, ruff, ruff!!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:49:03 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't you get it? YOU JUST COULDN'T DO IT!
Message:
Jim,

You must admit Maharaji is associated with Knowledge. When I'm having the spokes on my bike fixed I don't think about Maharaji. When I'm buying a new pair of Rockports I'm not thinking about Maharaji.

When I think about Maharaji I think about Knowledge. Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

Maharaji is here to give people Knowledge not to discuss the book of the month.

By the way I loved that lizard impression you used to do. Do you still do that?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:55:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Did you just say what I thought you said?
Message:
When I think about Maharaji I think about Knowledge. Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

I'm speechless. That's my point exactly, that you've been trained to deflect all questions and concerns about the man into this safe, nebulous box of woo-woo called 'Knowledge'.

You must admit Maharaji is associated with Knowledge. When I'm having the spokes on my bike fixed I don't think about Maharaji. When I'm buying a new pair of Rockports I'm not thinking about Maharaji.

Oh, I admit that Maharaji is associated with Knowledge. But you must admit that the man has a character and personality too, no? Why is it that you can't discuss those? The answer is in your own words above. Wake up!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:28:08 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you ignored the IMPORTANT question!
Message:
Do you still do the lizard thang or not?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:34:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Yes, I know, the lizard thang ......
Message:
I'm not sure which lizard thang Dog's talking about. There are a few.

But, really, isn't this rich? Here's Dog reminiscing about me and him but wearing his disguise so that only I know who he is. I do scratch my head at this. Like what the fu...?

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 14:24:24 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: more probing questions for Dep Dog
Message:
Dep Dog,

1. Did you read SQ's post about going to the last satellite feed? It was from Barcelona, I believe. Maharaji began his A+ satsang by talking about dirt.

2. Do you attend satellite feeds? At home, or with a group?

3. Do you pay $15.00 each time?

4. Did you attend the Barcelona satellite feed? If so, can you explain what Maharaji was saying about dirt. I'm sure he was speaking metaphorically somehow about the Knowledge of all the Masters, but unfortunately, SQ left the program after about 4 minutes so he didn't get to hear the whole thing.

If you prefer not to answer any of these questions, would you explain why?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:19:06 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: more probing questions for Dep Dog
Message:
Dep Dog,
1. Did you read SQ's post about going to the last satellite feed? It was from Barcelona, I believe. Maharaji began his A+ satsang by talking about dirt.

That's right Way. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. What a piece of work is man. This quintessence of dust. (A little Shakespeare for ya.)

2. Do you attend satellite feeds? At home, or with a group?

A group.

3. Do you pay $15.00 each time?

More like 5 or 10$

4. Did you attend the Barcelona satellite feed? If so, can you explain what Maharaji was saying about dirt. I'm sure he was speaking metaphorically somehow about the Knowledge of all the Masters, but unfortunately, SQ left the program after about 4 minutes so he didn't get to hear the whole thing.

He was saying that dirt was magic dust. Our food comes from it so do we. We walk on it. Yet we take it for granted and don't value it. Same with our breath, our life, just being alive is a tremendous gift. I wasn't taking notes but that was the jist of it.

If you prefer not to answer any of these questions, would you explain why?

Hey, if I prefer not to answer any of these questions, and if I explain why I don't want to answer, wouldn't that be answering a question?

Hey, I just been tricked! Way, you are one sneaky guy! Sheeesh. You don't happen to work for 'Confuse a Cat Limited' do you?


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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 14:27:48 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Thanks, Dog, for those responses
Message:
Dog,

I appreciate the answers. I asked them because you have posted here for a long time and we have discussed things on and off, but I never could tell how much of a practicing premie you are. You often claimed that you related to Knowledge as strictly a personal experience unrelated to a cult, and I began to think maybe you really are not following Maharaji at all. You may recall that I once stated you were very close to being an ex. Now I see that you are indeed a fully active current Person With Knowledge and certainly a loyal follower of Maharaji, despite your occasional vague claims to the contrary.

Your claims about not being in a cult must be based on your own personal definition and ideas about what consitutes a cult. My view is pretty simple - a cult is an authoritative religious leader and his followers. I have to elaborate just a bit. A Lutheran pastor and his congregation is not a cult, in my view, because the pastor is not seen as being a direct link to the experience of God. To have a cult, you must have a leader who claims some sort of direct link to the Godhead (so to speak) and the God-given ability to guide others to that link. This can take many forms, from an Eastern guru who claims to have reached Samadhi or Nirvana, or someone who claims a divine right to interpret the Bible for his followers, etc.

I believe my understanding of the word 'cult' corresponds directly to the dictionary definition, and I leave aside the possible negative connotations the word usually involves. So, to my understanding, you are most definitely a cult member, following a cult leader. My only question to you now is can you give me some explanation of what your view of a cult is and how you think Mr. Rawat is not a cult leader and you are not a cult member. I'm assuming you have some sort of special understanding that is not dictionary-accurate.

By the way, I have two other curiosities about current premies like yourself:

(1) I wonder at how middle-aged people can continue to find Mr. Rawat's discourse A+. When I hear him talk about dirt as magic dust, for example, I cringe at the juvenile quality of the way he speaks. The example I give here is just one example. His discourse is constantly and thoroughly juvenile.

(2) I also wonder at how people who say that they have reached the pinnacle of human evolution thanks to Knowledge, (as you claimed) still need frequent inspiration to meditate. If Knowledge were really as consistent and as wonderful as premies claim, why do they need to be talked into doing it? I still meditate, but only because I really want to and because I like it. I certainly don't need 'inspiration' to sit and quiet myself when I don't feel like it.

I realize Dog, that I am putting you on the spot, so to speak, and you may not like being confronted directly, and on my terms. But again, I would appreciate your honest answers, in the hope that a mutual understanding can be developed.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 17:11:18 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Way
Subject: And three Q's from me for DEP...
Message:
(1) What does 'satsang' mean?

(2) If M died or retired leaving wishes that X become 'Master' - would you wait until you had graded the new boss's satsang before deciding whether X was worth listening to?

(3) Could you tell the difference between the A+ satsang given by Maharaji and the E- pretend satsang of a joker? I mean, could you face my 'real-M vs fake-M' experiment? (Shroom tried it and failed miserably. Perhaps he wasn't as sharp as you at recognising the First Class stuff... eh?)

Wanna try it? It's just a bit of fun.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:09:49 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Probing questions to a premie?? R U Sisyphus?nt
Message:
Blah, blah, blah.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:13:55 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: To MD, another perspective entirely
Message:
Danny:

By the way, spin is spin and reading the Elan Vital FAQ or reading Gore/Bush press releases are virtually indistinguishable experiences. I give equal weight to all the above. None.

This is probably the most telling thing you've written. In other words you start by giving him the same latitude you reserve for politicians, which seems the belie the claim that he's a spiritual leader. If he's a politician then let's judge him by that yardstick, OK? Or is it possible you're suggesting that he not be judged by any yardstick at all? Surely not?

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:39:46 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Rawat uses EV to deflect blame from himself
Message:
I think he always has. But it seems he has gotten even better at it.

Danny misses the point that these EV posts surely are cleared by Rawat before they go on the site. EV is speaking for Rawat. If he doesn't like the FAQs they wouldn't be up. If he wanted the PAMs to bark like dogs and pee on fire hydrants they would.

Rawat stays 'pure' and it is always the honchos, the premies, the bongos, the world, or whoever that doesn't understand him. He is a victim of all these confused people and he is so merciful to even let them send him their money.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:43:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Yeah, Danny what do you say to this?
Message:
Danny,

I didn't even notice that part of your post until Scott pointed it out.

Do you really think that EV would utter lies like that on their website without full authorization -- maybe even authoring -- of Maharaji?

Please, tell us how that would work. Entertain us, Danny boy.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 09:23:15 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Danny, you have my sympathies
Message:
Hi Danny,

You sound like a sincere, intelligent person. What a shame you got trapped in a religious cult when you were young and impressionable.

Your faith in the creator has carried you through. All that sincere effort and devotion to the Lord can't have been pissing into the wind right?

And besides, you have the practical experience of 'Knowledge' right Danny? That 'limitless peace within'.

And because of all this stuff, you know, in your heart, that you are walking the path of Truth.

Not like the Moonies, the Hare Krishnas, the Children of God, the Followers of Bhagwan. You're following the true master with the true knowledge right?

What a waste Danny. You've spent god knows how many years moulding and bending your view and philosophy of life to cater for this wierd set of beliefs you have ('Knowledge' is some kind of deep meaningful experience of life, Mahararji is you master etc). And it all makes sense to you...

...until that is, you take your post hippy philosphy out into the light of day.

Then it becomes plain for all to see Danny- you're hanging on to a crock of shit. You're just another type of Moonie Danny, like I was.

I hope you have the inner courage to get straightened out.

Anth, glad to be out of the cul-de-sac

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:59:39 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: To Danny, an intelligent premie.
Message:
And in my experience, many premies are very intelligent. Why intelligent people get suckered into this simplistic semi-Hindu cult is something about which I have opinions, but, never mind, for now.

This, for now: many of us, if you've been a sometime visitor, you surely know, have been passionately involved with spiritual development for some time. Both pre- and post- Maharaj Ji.

Have you ever had doubts about your guru's credentials? You should have. I've had doubts about my guru's credentials, and he's a hell of a lot more qualified than yours (and, once upon a time, mine). 'Never leave room for doubt in your mind,' a commandment you are no doubt familiar with, is anathema to true spiritual growth, as opposed to spiritual slavery, in my opinion.

On this site, we are certainly opposed to GMJ's teachings. But the range of opinion -- from atheist to God-inspired -- is certainly much much greater than anything you are used to in your premie community.

And I suppose you can dismiss Michael's statements the same way I could dismiss anti-M statements back in the day: 'He's in his mind.'

Please. Use your brain. It's still working. And God doesn't mind your using your mind. There are many valid paths out there. Leave the cult and Grow!

(My partisan feeling. I can't deny anyone's personal experience...I know -- from experience -- that you can be a member of GMJ's cult and still grow. It's just that there are so many authentic non-cultic paths out there...)

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:50:15 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Gregg,Bin,Katie,Joe,etc.
Subject: Replies to some Qs
Message:
Hi people,

Rather than take up lots of space I'll try my best to reply to some questions from a few folks here in one swell foop. I'll deal with the ones that came with a reasonably or at least marginally friendly tone. Some of you, at least in your cyber-personas, left your charm back on the road somewhere. I hope you find it again, regardless of the route you choose to take.

I don't post much and I couldn't help but notice that, for the most part, no one dealt with many of the points I was raising. Then again, I was responding to what seemed like an oddly forced about-face from Michael Dettmers. I also couldn't help but notice that the second he started agreeing with y'all, you embraced him like a long-lost friend when days before, most of you were heaping torrents of abuse on him. I strongly feel that whatever side of an issue one is on, determining your treatment of another human being this way is unbalanced, dehumanizing and just plain wayyyyy off.

End of speech. Here are my answers. You may not like 'em but they weren't written by a committee or focus group.

Gregg asked, 'Have you ever had doubts about your guru's credentials?'

Not in a few decades. I've usually felt so good around him that there wasn't much to question, frankly. If, when in someone's presence, you felt at your highest, happiest, warmest and most aware, would you be asking them for proof-of-lineage certificates? Another way of looking at it: if you regularly felt powerfully sexually aroused around a certain person, would you need to ask them if they're hot?

Gregg also said,' I've had doubts about my guru's credentials, and he's a hell of a lot more qualified than yours'

Let's just leave that for what it is.

'But the range of opinion (on this site) -- from atheist to God-inspired -- is certainly much much greater than anything you are used to in your premie community.'

Can't say I've run into lots of 'God-inspired' dialogue here, Gregg. I haven't been in a premie community (in the sense that you remember) for around 15 years. I'd have to say the range of opinion in the circles I run in would be somewhat larger than here, no offense. Strictly on the subject of Maharaji there's a larger range as well, along a wide spectrum which I mentioned in the original post.

Gregg also wrote, 'Please. Use your brain. It's still working.'

Thanks. I use my brain quite regularly, though on certain Mondays it fails to make an appearance.

Bin Liner asked,' Maybe you'd like to say what you think about the allegation I made then , that a well known EV/UK spokesperson said to a video event organiser , vis a vis a premie who was becoming disenchanted with Bollix Shwar , ' if someone consciously obstructs M's work & won't stop , then in the end the only thing you can do is kill them' , or words to that effect.now ; you can always weave in a mention of the threat to MD , & your general thoughts on the role of intimidation in the divine plan.'

Hi Bin. I don't know anything about your allegation. It sounds suspiciously like the tape of that security guy from 1973. I already told Jim what I thought of that email to Michael. It stinks. I don't believe anything worthwhile comes from intimidation, except perhaps a few extra strikeouts in a baseball game. No one should be forced or coerced to believe anything, including what people here believe or disbelieve. I'm a big fan of tolerance and leaving people alone who you disagree with.

Katie (hello, Katie) quoted me saying,'Because, with some exceptions of course, no other view but the party platform (M is a fraud with no gift, talent or intelligence, it’s all about $, M’s motivation is to fuck people’s minds, set loose hammer-wielding child abusers on the world and get new, groovy forms of transportation and space-age plumbing fixtures, all premies are blithering nitwits and anyone who disagrees with any of this is a hypnotized, apologist cultist} is ever tolerated.'

Katie then said, 'Sorry, but this just isn't true (I know you said 'with some exceptions', but that's not enough.) Like Joe and Nigel said a few days ago, I really dislike it when people make generalizations about this forum and its 'party platform' and assume that almost everyone on it has the exact same opinions about Maharaji, premies, and whatever. I find this to be PERSONALLY insulting.'

Oh Katie, you seem like a lovely person. Please stop huffing. You very well may be one of the exceptions I noted but I stand by every single word above. Joe, who you mention, and who is probably a wonderful guy on Terra Firma, seems to come at anyone who sees this aspect of life differently from himself in just that way (look how he responded to me)...as do Jim, Rob, Gerry and most of the louder, more militant 'exes.' Jim, among the 'right-wingers,' at least leavens his abuse with some wit and the odd dollop of charm. Thus, the strychnine parfait.

Katie then wrote, 'I agree that there are people on this forum who feel the way you described, but there are plenty who do NOT feel that way.'

Perhaps so, but face it, Katie. The former group is clearly the predominate tone and voice of this page, whether you wish it wasn't so or not. This is what is largely projected here and THIS is what those unscientific 98% of people who've had some connection in whatever way to Maharaji do not agree with or wish to contribute to. Hostility, abuse and intolerance are NOT on the menu for most people. I know you don't embody or enjoy those 'qualities' but they are evidenced here in spades. If some of you weren't so busy being on the same 'side,' it might be more apparent to you.

Joe, nasty tone and all asked,'why do you think there is NO open discussion on any of the premie websites, including Maharaji's?'

Hi Joe. There is no 'open discussion' on MOST web sites covering MOST subjects. I don't know why this seems so sinister or unusual to you. The content being presented is Maharaji's, not Baba Ghanoush's, Ford trucks or RuPaul's CDs. Those who aren't interested go elsewhere. Most sites that are discussion-based have to do with a particular software, application or fan club. Even so, if you go to a Pagemaker discussion board and start talking about Quark Express, they'll ask you to stop or leave. Maharaji's not asking the general public how to teach...nor is Qantas Airlines asking people what movies they should show or what entrees they should serve. The people that want to discuss how much or why they hate Maharaji discuss that here, with few exceptions. That's 'open', but only in a limited sense.

By the way, I don't intend to belittle or marginalize any pain anyone here has about these issues. I also know that one can get stuck on some perceived injustice (real or imagined) and it can be a bitch to extricate one's self from it, even if it's purely mental. I just can't pretend that it's my pain. It isn't. That's why I wrote the original post to Michael. Is it HIS experience he's speaking from or an empathetic amalgamation of others' grievances? Remember, when he wrote from what appeared to be HIS perception, it was greeted with raspberries. Plus a heavy dose of intimidation, Mr. Bin.

AJW said, 'Danny, you have my sympathies.'

Aren't you the fella who came to the profound realization that Knowledge was snot? Hold on to your sympathies. And your hankie.

Danny, the Doing Just Fine and Nasally Satisfied

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 05:30:32 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Replies to some Qs
Message:
If, when in someone's presence, you felt at your highest, happiest, warmest and most aware, would you be asking them for proof-of-lineage certificates?

Jim's response pretty much said it all, Danny, and I hope you do think about it as he requested. I've just got one more thought. If the feelings you have about Maharaji are based on who he claims to be, then yeah, it might be a good idea to question if he really is that person. A lot of us just took it for granted that he was. Actually, we all had it drummed into us that he was. We started out skeptics, but soon enough, after all the satsang we got bombarded with and all the happy shiny people, we started to believe it. Unfortunately, once we did, we kinda got stuck in that gear, until somebody (as in my case, and now your's) told us to slow down and think about it. Maybe you should. Maharaji is not who you think he is, Danny. He's just some distant figure, charismatic, to be sure, who's peddling some simple meditation techniques. That's all he is. Nothing to get all goo-goo-ga-ga about. That's just crazy, man.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 22:38:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Look at what you've become, Danny -- no seriously
Message:
Danny,

You are glib and, in the right circumstances, that's a strength, not a weakness. But here, Danny Boy, it's a weakness.

And why?

Because your glibness cuts off your intelligence. Makes you sound as dumb as Bjorn, when it comes right down to it.

I'll just give you one example (for now) but ask that you consider it honestly and fully. Really think about it, Dan. Really, really think about it. I'd be most interested in your reply. You wrote:

Gregg asked, 'Have you ever had doubts about your guru's credentials?'

Not in a few decades. I've usually felt so good around him that there wasn't much to question, frankly. If, when in someone's presence, you felt at your highest, happiest, warmest and most aware, would you be asking them for proof-of-lineage certificates? Another way of looking at it: if you regularly felt powerfully sexually aroused around a certain person, would you need to ask them if they're hot?

I say that both your explanation and the analogy you think proves your case are breathtakingly superficial and inadequate. The analogy, quite frankly, is stupid.

Maharaji presents himself as 'The Master'. Now let's be honest about this. For all his caginess, for all his blanket denials and bold-faced lies, there is, in fact, a historical and public record. This man has most definitely made some extremely extravagant claims for himself. Go to the DLM / EV Papers section here on this site and review some of the 'I am God' quotes. The same ones that EV claims were never uttered. Go to Maharaji's own web site where, as I think Joe pointed out the other day, Maharaji claims lineage as a Master. Consider ANY of his old satsangs. Any of them. He most definitely is claiming something very, very special for himself.

Then consider the fact that Maharaji's lineage and thus credentials has been vigorously challenged by the very crew that supported him in this regard to begin with, his family.

Then consider the history of the whole Ridemypony tradition, again as outlined on JM's website mentioned above.

This much is indisputable, Dan: Maharaji is claiming something very extraordinary for himself, something far beyond the day-to-day experience of you, me or anyone we know -- he's claiming to be a 'Master', indeed the Master. Yet that claim is challenged and disputed from every direction. Even he has a hard time with it! The one group of people in this entire world that doesn't question him are his remaining followers.

So, what could it possibly mean that your entire confirmation of his 'Master-ness' depends on nothing more than a feeling? When you're around him you feel good so there's nothing to question? That's what I mean by superficial, Dan. That is superficiality in the extreme.

Think about it. Isn't the truth of the matter that you are doing no more than accepting Maharaji on his own terms? It's not that you don't have doubts and questions, it's just that you know he won't possibly deal with them so you'd better off pretend they're just not there? Isn't that it?

And isn't that exactly how Maharaji himself suggests that one deal with doubts and problems when they occur? I think it was when he was last in India that he said that the best way to deal with problems is to ignore them. Go search ELK, it's all there.

And, again, isn't this the epitome of superficiality? Dan, whether you want to acknowledge that or not, you know damn well that everyone BUT a current follower of your cult leader would say as much. It's just too obvious for words.

But then your comments aren't just superficial, they're also stupid. Why do I say that? Because your analogy to sex appeal is oh so dumb! Sex appeal is all about personal impressions, Dan. That and nothing more. But what we're talking about is a bit more than Maharaji's golden skin and commanding figure, wouldn't you say?

Dan, I'm not suggesting that you find a better analogy! Rather I'm inviting you to consider the thought process that lead you to offering such a bad one to begin with.

See, I firmly believe that a smart guy like you wouldn't say something so stupid if you were thniking clearly. Indeed, as is apparent with cults-- and you should read the literature if you haven't already. It's all out there and this is a commonly-accepted notion -- people in cults have big, fat blind spots regarding their cults that do, in fact, make them function far below their real capacities as demonstrated in all other areas.

Your very, very, very bad analogy says it all, Dan.

Think about it, please.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 15:55:31 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: DANNY
Subject: TO ALL PREMIES WHO COME HERE-LOOK AT THIS
Message:
i see something else that needs examining too-- let's take your replies in order:'Have you ever had doubts about your guru's credentials?'
and you respond truthfully,'Not in a few decades.'
okay. good.>what were those doubts, when you did have them?now we go to your second response:
'I've usually felt so good around him that there wasn't much to question, frankly.'
please look at that twice. think on a few other comparable circumstances, in which the same could be uttered, with equally clear 20/20 hindsight:
'I don't know why i let him talk me into it, Officer. He just made it seem so logical/natural/clear/ cool/exciting/ok/obvious/fun/, i just went along with it. We just did it. It was always like that when i was with him.'
'and so there seemed to be nothing wrong with it, when you (pick one or all:)shot that family/robbed that convenience store/raped that girl/ burned down that house/vandalized that school/stole that car/beat up that faggot/killed that kid?'
contemplate on that , Danny-- and all other premies reading this?
You explain yourself by asking us' If, when in someone's presence, you felt at your highest, happiest, warmest and most aware, would you be asking them for proof-of-lineage certificates?'
Given the above, real-life story, that plays out every day, in police stations everywhere, think on your answer and whether you, yourself, would take that as a responsible, prudent,wise or realistic accounting, for trusting to follow someone without thinking?. Would you take that as a satisfactory answer from your teenage son who was in custody, down at the station?
from your daughter, who was pregnant, and had AIDS from the encounter?
from your aged mother, who gave her life savings to a suave, seasoned con, and is now penniless?
from your spouse, who contracted with some charming guy who drove a truck, she met in the mall parking lot, who said he could remodel your kitchen for $5,000, cash on the barrelhead, and she used all your credit cards to pay him, up front, and he never came back?
let's go to your second example:
'Another way of looking at it: if you regularly felt powerfully sexually aroused around a certain person, would you need to ask them if they're hot?'
correction: no, you would need to ask yourself why you felt so powerfully aroused around them. you would need to ask yourself if they were that hot. You would need to ask yourself if pursuing sex with them were worth, say, destroying your marriage. or losing your job. or destroying their marriage. or getting AIDS. or siring a child you couldnt support or raise.
you might ask yourself whether they were deliberately using their sexuality, to get something they wanted from you. Or intentionally distracting or diverting your attention, and better judgement, for some ulterior motive. (refer to above scenarios, esp the daughter, the mother, the wife.)
let's say instead of being taken in, you did your background research. the teen boy thinks for himself and refuses to do things he knows are wrong. the daughter has a keen sense of self worth and refuses to get intimate unless she is serious about the man and he is too and they both get tested before they undress. your mom knows her mind and doesnt think much of a man who needs her money. your wife gets home with the truck guy's business card and immediately starts making phone calls and discovers that this guy isnt licensed, listed in the phonebook, no one knows him, and the mall management has him listed for passing bad checks.
and you do some background research on this indian guy in malibu and you find out that while he says he gives this free, it turns out that everyone he gives it to is asked to give money at every turn for the rest of their lives. while he claims to be The Master who can reveal to you ultimate Peace, you learn from insiders that he never meditates on his own techniques, that he is an alcoholic who displays anxiety, temper, abusiveness, caprice,inconsideration for others, is obsessed with achieving megalomaniacal control over every aspect of his existence.You come to understand that while he talks of love all the time, that he has publicly ridiculed bereavement, and shows zero care for his followers troubles, problems, feelings, experiences, intelligence, or needs, up to and including his wife's.
You learn, in your investigating, that this guy has an insatiable hunger for ever more money and material property, which he manipulates to get others to sign their names to be legally responsible for, but they are never to be allowed to enjoy the ownership of. You are incredulous to learn that among these signings, there are a 25 millon dollar house, a 25 million dollar jet, a 7 million dollar yacht, and every personal whim, taste and luxury he can crave. When you wonder where the money could possibly come from, you learn that he never thinks about how, he just wants, and he takes it from his followers at will. You learn that he has warehouses crammed with unwanted gifts his followers have spent stunning amounts of money on, that he is bored or angry with, because they didn't ask him what he wanted or sent money, instead. yet he refuses to part with it or sell it off or distribute it to the needy among his faithful, because its his, dammit, and no one else's.
you find out that he evaded bank laws by having his people ferry cash in suitcases across the U S border so there would be no electronic trail to aleert moneylaundering sensors. you listen to eyewitness accounts of toxic dumps, OSHA evasions,unpaid labor, chemical exposure, overcrowding of families, all for the whimsical renovation of an airplane that he didnt want when it was finished.
and somewhere along the way, your stomach knots up, your heart stops, your blood runs cold, and you realize, that this guy wants to add you, and the whole rest of the world, to his bottomless vortex-----
and you run like hell.
IN FACT--YOU START A WEBSITE.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 02:40:15 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: On the other hand...
Message:
maybe it's not such a bad analogy after all.

Gregg asked, 'Have you ever had doubts about your guru's credentials?'

Not in a few decades. I've usually felt so good around him that there wasn't much to question, frankly. If, when in someone's presence, you felt at your highest, happiest, warmest and most aware, would you be asking them for proof-of-lineage certificates? Another way of looking at it: if you regularly felt powerfully sexually aroused around a certain person, would you need to ask them if they're hot?

If I were aroused, infatuated or in love with a woman I hope I'd have enough presence of mind to notice whether she was duplicitous and deceitful? Maybe not, but if not I suspect I wouldn't be looking in the mirror congratulating myself on my excellent judgment.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 03:12:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Come on, Scott, think about it
Message:
The issue is whether noticing someone's sex appeal is in any way like scrutinizing their authenticity as a 'Perfect Master'.

The first kind of assessment is the epitome of a non-intellectual process. But the second? 'He's the Perfect Master because he makes me feel so good whenever I'm around him...'

No thanks!

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 05:04:09 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OK
Message:
Jim:

The first kind of assessment is the epitome of a non-intellectual process. But the second?

Well, so is the second. The point is that it's not a good argument in either case. In a sense, latching onto a charismatic leader is very much like being in love, because the normal rational processes *are* suspended, or at least supressed. The trick is that genuine love can withstand a little scrutiny, as can genuine leadership. So, our long-time-infatuated friend has a lesson to learn. It is at least as bitter as disillusionment with a lover, if not more so.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:57:33 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: a few questions,Danny....
Message:
Danny-I too go back a long ways-received k in 1972,and went through every imaginable era and error as well.
And through it all I didn't really question the master (as in leave no room for doubt in your mind)until the last few years,when things seemed so wierd and strange in the world of m and k, that I had to take a second look at the man on the stage.

So, I did follow my heart.
I did go inside.
I did listen to the still,small voice within.
I did stop following my concepts.
I gave up the religion.

You know what?
I took some of m's own advice, applied it to my life,and realized what a con game the whole thing has been for me for so long.
It's embarrassing to admit that you've been conned, and believed it for so long.
It's beyond comprehension to me how m can do a 180 on who he says he is, and expect all of us to believe it.
He said a few days ago in a video-'are you comfortable talking about the master and knowledge?'
Who could be,unless they feel comfortable with lies,denials,manipulation and coverups.

Are you really going to tell us,as I asked Michael Dettmers a few months ago, that there are 'no unresolved issues from the past with m?' (Michael agreed, and said that there were plenty)

We are dealing with them on this site.
Sometimes through anecdotes,humour,anger..whatever happens, it's a free flowing discussion,which is a real first for many of us old timers who bought the party line for decades.

Can you really look at yourself and say that there are none?

How would you deal with them differently?

Do you feel that m will deal directly with these issues? Every PAM I know has scoffed at that notion.Unfortunately for m, I believe that his extreme arrogance will be his own undoing. And in an ironic way, technology, which he has used so extensively to further himself, is now helping to expose him and bring him down. Any person in the world is a few mouse clicks away from knowing the truth abut m,and all the hypocrisies and blatant lies that he has told.

Please don't tell me abut the 62,000 aspirants in India. We all know that this movement is dying in the US,but very few people want to talk about it, or m's personal problems, which I believe SHOULD be known to people who want to receive K,because the person of maharaji is such a big part of the package (premies generally say he's the WHOLE package, but that's just between premies, not generally told to people in the WORLD...)

How about just letting MD tell his story?
What do you find so threatening about that?
If it's all so beautiful,what would be so bad about that?

What are your doubts about m?
Are you comfortable with all the deceptions and manipulations we have been put through?
Do you feel that m has never lied to us?

Just curious,
La-ex

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:20:34 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: And great post, LA...
Message:
What's the betting Danny will make himself scarce rather than answer anybody's questions?
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:22:53 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Nigel , LA
Subject: that was a great post, LA...
Message:
Like I was reading my own journey. That is exactly what happened to me a few years ago.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:40:51 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: What great love and respect has he shown you?
Message:
He's treated me with great love and respect and I'm neither a money donor, OHM nor airplane salesman.

And so should any decent person.

Can you give one example of How Maharaji has treated you personally with great love and respect? Seriously I would like to know this since I cannot really say the same.

I would say that he treated me privately in no particularly extraordinary way. Just normal. Averagely kind and respectful. That is hardly remarkable. I would say that his ashram satsangs of the past- often intimidating stuff-were not particularly loving or respectful, in fact I think he has said some unkind and disrespectful things. I think he has made unrespectful demands on his followers frequently.

Please give an example that backs up this claim of yours which I suspect is a glossy interpretation of yours.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:33:28 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: How come ALL premies say they never gave a dime?nt
Message:
Immaculate piggy back floweth over
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:40:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Funny and on-the-money (no pun) as usual, Daneane
Message:
It would have been 'nt' but I didn't have room
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:31:18 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: To MD, another perspective entirely
Message:

Are you sure you only 'drop in from time to time' here ?

When I made my 1st posting as an ex-premie about 2 months ago you were one of the people who replied.

You weren't as eloquent with me as you are with MD , but then I'm just a lost pawn , not a knight or bishop.

You still haven't said what you think about the allegation I made then , that a well known EV/UK spokesperson said to a video event organiser , vis a vis a premie who was becoming disenchanted with Bollix Shwar , ' if someone consciously obstructs M's work & won't stop , then in the end the only thing you can do is kill them' , or words to that effect.

Maybe you'd like to now ; you can always weave in a mention of the threat to MD , & your general thoughts on the role of intimidation in the divine plan.

Or maybe it's all just LILA eh ?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:25:06 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: To MD, another perspective entirely
Message:
Hi Danny,
I know your question was to Michael Dettmers, so forgive me for butting in here. I just wanted to say a few things.

First, the interactions you've seen on the forum between MD and other exes have not been all that's been happening. I think if you read some of Susan's, Jim's, Joe's, La-ex's posts, you may realize that a lot of personal, off-forum, interaction has been going on. I have not liked the way Michael has been treated by many people on this forum (and I've said this), but to assume that that is all that has been going on is incorrect.

Second, you wrote:
Because, with some exceptions of course, no other view but the party platform (M is a fraud with no gift, talent orthe intelligence, it’s all about $, M’s motivation is to fuck people’s minds, set loose hammer-wielding child abusers on the world and get new, groovy forms of transportation and space-age plumbing fixtures, all premies are blithering nitwits and anyone who disagrees with any of this is a hypnotized, apologist cultist} is ever tolerated.

Sorry, but this just isn't true (I know you said 'with some exceptions', but that's not enough.) Like Joe and Nigel said a few days ago, I really dislike it when people make generalizations about this forum and its 'party platform' and assume that almost everyone on it has the exact same opinions about Maharaji, premies, and whatever. I find this to be PERSONALLY insulting. I agree that there are people on this forum who feel the way you described, but there are plenty who do NOT feel that way.

You also wrote:
This page represents a tiny (but loud) minority viewpoint... The fact is, this bring-the-demonic-Guru-down view doesn’t at all represent the feeling of 98% of the people who’ve received knowledge, both current and former practitioners. In case people here haven’t figured this simple fact out, that’s why they’re not chiming in.

I don't know how you can presume to speak for 98% of the people who have received Knowledge, for one thing. But I will tell you something - I have a LOT of ex-premie friends who don't post here. Without exception, they are very supportive of ex-premie.org and my efforts on its behalf. The reason they don't post is not because they don't feel it is important (frankly, most of them didn't even know that Maharaji was still in business and that there were people who had been following him for over 25 years), it is because they have other priorities in their lives - mostly kids, work, or other social causes. Or because they are just not Internet people (there are still some of those around, you know.)

Danny, before I found this site, I hadn't thought about Maharaji in 20 years. My attitude was 'Well, he's not that bad, but I'm glad I grew out of it.' You can read my Journeys entry if you want - I feel that I actually was helped at that point in my life by being accepted by the premie community where I live. I didn't sustain permanent damage - at least relative to everything else that had happened to me up to that point.

I was actually told about this site by an ex-premie friend who doesn't post here but who did a web search on Maharaji (something I'd never thought of). I originally just had the idea of trying to find some old friends, but I ended up reading the Bob Mishler interview and the archives from Forum I. I was absolutely appalled at what had been going on, and what HAD gone on that I'd been completely unaware of. And then I found out that a close premie friend of mine (a former ashram premie) had killed himself, and that bothered me enough so that I began to help the people who were running the site at the time.

This site and forum are about information. This is the ONLY place where ex-premies who didn't know each other in the Real World have been able to connect and communicate. (That is part of the reason you hear so much about the past - for many of us, this forum is the first place we have ever had where we can talk about these things with people who were in the same place at the same time that we were.) And, like I said to MD, before this site's existence, most of us only had little pieces of information that we hadn't been able to put together in order to see the whole picture. Even Michael Dettmers didn't have the whole story, by any means - as he has said.

Maharaji and EV have always suppressed information about what has gone on and what is going on in their organization - they did it when I was a premie, and they are doing it now (just read the FAQ's on the EV site). They recently tried to suppress numerous ex-premie sites by legal means. Why do you think they don't want the ex-premie sites on-line? Do you think they might be trying to hide something?

I think everyone has a right to have access to information about Maharaji's past, and about what he is doing in the present. And to be able to read about the experiences of people who, for one reason or another, have become disenchanted with Maharaji. Basically, it's here on ex-premie.org for people to read, and I, for one, respect the ability of these people to make up their own minds about how they feel about this information. I also think it's insulting to assume that people in general - and Michael Dettmers in particular - cannot make up their own minds about the posts on this forum.

Sincerely,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:38:15 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Great post, Katie
Message:
Well said indeed.
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:32:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: more
Message:
Danny,

Dettmers has clearly had a change of heart since any of us exes first interacted with him last spring. Sounds like you would attribute that to Michael's being 'harassed, harangued, berated, slandered, insulted and repeatedly dissed on this page by a lynch-mob mentality' and not simply his own evolution through dialogue, reflection and, as he himself suggests, reaction to some of EV's recent shenannigans like its FAQs. You would remind Michael of his 'real' sentiments, the ones you've quoted and which he expressed earlier in the ball game.

I guess what you're trying to do, I'm sure you'd agree, is save Michael from the clutches of the Ex-Premie cult. Right?

So, Danny, let's assume, for a moment, that there's an issue here. Is it the case that Michael's been so badly brow-beaten, cajoled and interrogated that he really has lost any sense of his own autonomy? His own self? Are we talking Manchurian Candidate time? Is that what you're thinking? Well, let's assume, for argument's sake, that that's possible.

'kay?

In that case, Danny, I'd ask you what tools you'd suggest Michael employ to try to solve this 'puzzle'? Yes, he's got his own words thrown back at him. That's some evidence of something. Sure. But how would you suggest he consider those words? Huh?

For example, Michael, like the rest of us here, seems a bit miffed by the apparent lies of EV's FAQs. How would you suggest he deal with that concern? Come on, Danny, if you're trying to lead the guy back into the fold surely you have a plan or something. What?

You've done a clever enough (for a premie, that is!) job of ridiculing our criticisms of Maharaji, the signs we call tell-tale of the man's real character. You know, the spatula, Raoul's calcium, that's all funny ane everything. But are we to take from your post that there are no concerns worth fretting over in terms of Maharaji's behaviour, past or present?

Like, Danny, you also throw back at Michael that maybe he is the inattentive friend who didn't keep up the communication. But, Danny, what would you suggest Michael say to his former guru besides 'Hi, how're you doin'?' Any ideas, Dan? And if they do get to talking someday, ( thanks to you, perhaps), do you then think it'd be foolhardy of Michael to bring up, say, some of these pesky matters, like the multi-million dollar yacht, the EV lies? I guess what I'm asking you is are you really offering Michael any sort of path of reason or is it just a hole in the ground -- right next to yours -- to stick his head in?

Furthermore, you state, as if you know, that 98% of the people who received Knowledge don't share the same anti-Maharaji sentiment that prevails here. Are you serious? First of all, how do you know? Well, of course you don't. You're just saying it. But even though none of us, I assume, have done any formal surveys of any kind, do you honestly think that only 2% of all those people think that Maharaji's a fraud?

How interesting.

Anyway, not to ramble.

Are you Danny Coyne, by the way?


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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:46:54 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Great post, Jim (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:09:08 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Danny
Subject: The pipes, the pipes are calling...
Message:
Methinks thou dost protest too much.
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:55:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: What do you think of Bill Murray, Danny boy?(nt)
Message:
ffffff
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:15:52 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What do you think of Bill Murray, Danny boy?
Message:
Hi Jim,

I think that email is the work of a full-blooded, low-rent jackass. Whether it was written by a premie or ex, my opinion would be the same.

Danny

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:28:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Thanks for that answer. I agree.
Message:
dddddd
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 11:29:19 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Heres what I think of Bill Murray!
Message:
This is a copy of an email I've just sent to Mr Bill Murray...

Bill

I am a premie that occasionally contributes to the Ex-premie Forum in defense of Maharaji and premies and I am absolutely appalled at the blatant threats in your email to Michael Dettmers. I can only assume that you are acting on your own and not (hopefully) on behalf of Maharaji and Elan Vital.

I believe your threats are despicable and entirely counter productive to dealing with the issues that ex-premies raise in a fair and rational manner. If you have ever read the Forum you would realise that such threats will merely confirm the views that many ex-premies have of Maharaji and premies generally.

You obviously have access to the ex-premie forum so I would request that you publicly apologise to Michael on the Forum .

Mel

I can only assume that Elan Vital have read what Mr Murray has said to Michael Dettmers and will publicly dissociate themselves from his comments as a matter of their and (indirectly) Maharaji's credibility.

Mel

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:25:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: My first valentine to Mel
Message:
Good one.

Keep going .......

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:12:43 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What I think ?
Message:
There are a only few possibilities.

1. Micheal Dettmers became a nonbrainer during the weekend.

2. Micheal Dettmers last post was made by a fraud

3. Bill Murray is a premie pretending to be an ex-premie

4. Bill Murray is a ex-premie pretending to be a premie

I think one of the above.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:35:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: A little wishful thinking, Bjorn?
Message:
I talked with Michael today and, believe it or not, he sounded every bit as sharp as you, Bjorn. Number one's out.

As is number two.

Now your third possibility makes no sense. We'll pretend we didn't read it.

The fourth? Why do you say that? Because no premie would ever threaten someone like that? You sure, Bjorn? Tell me about it.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:08:51 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: MD's e-mail spoofed?
Message:
Jim,

If Bjorn is correct in his post below the e-mail sent to MD was spoofed so you won't get the ISP from the e-mail address, 'cos it don't exist. It may have been sent with some little e-mail prog that allows a sender to send anonymously. However, the information in the e-mail 'properties' could provide the necessary data to identify the sender. It's just that you mentioned trying to help MD get the guy kicked of his ISP. So, obviously, MD doesn't want to delete the e-mail on his machine and just keep a hard copy or something. The e-mail 'properties' should have the ISP and the modem from which the e-mail was sent. That plus the time and ISP logs might give the user.

Coach.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:25:19 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: MD's e-mail spoofed?
Message:
Coach:

There are at least a few email services that are completely anonymous, so that not even the server knows the identity of customers. These are, as yet, used infrequently so chances are you're correct that information in the header would be revealing.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 17:16:15 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: MD's e-mail spoofed?
Message:
Scottie,

Thanx for that morsel of info. I live an' learn.

Coach

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:28:17 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Forget It(nt)
Message:
sdc
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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:49:13 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: So how come Jim
Message:
If this mail would have been sent from Murrray, and received by Michael, it would be possible to send a mail to the same address? Right?

It is not.

If you copy the address and try to send a mail to this address, it does not exist. At least I did not manage to send anything to this addresss.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:24:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Oh yeah?
Message:
Well, Bjorneo, I emailed him too and my email never bounced back.

Here's what I sent three and a half hours ago:

Hey guy,

I read your email to Michael Dettmers over on the ex-premie forum and have to ask you what in the world you hope to accomplish with this. Don't you know that it just makes the cult look disgustingly pathetic, flailing like that?

Anyway, I'm inclined to send your email to your server as well. My experience suggests that they'll cancel your account in a flash once they put two and two together (Don't worry, Bill, I'll help them do that.) I've done this before with great success. They'll probably also identify you, by the way. How do you like that?

But, being nice and everything, I thought I'd email you first and give you an opportunity to explain yourself. Got anything to say, Bill? Anthing?

Jim

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 07:23:37 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You are right Jim
Message:
When I tried to send the email, I got the message 'no matches found'. But what I had done was to clip all the text in the from area. My post also came through when I just clipped 'the mail to' address.

But as you wrote;
Hey guy,

I read your email to Michael Dettmers over on the ex-premie forum and have to ask you what in the world you hope to accomplish with this. Don't you know that it just makes the cult look disgustingly pathetic, flailing like that?

I agree with your statement thus I made the 3 & 4 alternatives in my previous post.

But stupidity is everywhere

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:27:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: My first valentine to Bjorn
Message:
Good one.

Keep going ....

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:02:20 (GMT)
From: me
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Egad! you ARE in a lovey mood. Is Laurie at fault?
Message:
nt asdlkd
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:18:23 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: News Flash
Message:
I lasted almost five minutes at today's satellite feed of an event M gave in Barcelona on October 2. That was 4.8 minutes longer than I lasted at last week's feed because today's event being relatively recent compared to last week's compilation of God-knows-what, I thought I would get some insight into what's going on in M's head or whatever part of his body drives his mouth.

He opened by saying, and somebody back me up here because I'm not kidding, 'Today I'm going to talk about dirt'.

And guess what. For the next five minutes he talked about dirt.
He fulfilled his promise.

He repeated the word 'dirt' continually for five minutes. I cannot remember any other words he used except that while I was walking out, I heard the words 'hanger' and 'pocket'.

I'm sorry if this is not a very exciting report. One of my ambitions is to be a journalist and I guess this is a very humble beginning.

For now, reporting from Vancouver for the EBC (Ex Broadcasting Network), your devoted servant,

Steve Quint

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:58:39 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: News Flash 2
Message:
I also saw a bit of this video - and remember the words 'trout' and 'collapsable'

Anyone else....

Loaf

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:15:04 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: The beast is getting weaker. Keep hitting (NT)
Message:
aaaa
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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:18:17 (GMT)
From: Anarchist
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: You want dirt - you got it
Message:
Continuing with Maharaji's obsession with toilets, I am not surprised to hear that he just wants to talk about dirt. He probably didn't wash his hands after he went to the toilet and now he's plagued by the terror of germs and other nasty little things.

Click here to visit Maharaji's toilet

What he needs is some good, clean and strong carbolic soap and some powerful disinfectant. Scrub his hands for a good five to ten minutes and then he can visit the toilet again, all clean and fresh and smelling as sweet as roses.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:43:04 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: News Flash
Message:
Steven,
But, didn't he expound on dirt by saying that WE are but dirt in this vast universe?And that by realizing we are simply dirt we can realize our own true nature...which is the lowest of the low in God's Divine eye...which realizing that,my dear brother in love, we realize the absolute bliss of the eternal paradox...which is ' Dirt is indeed the HIGHEST thing to be.'
And DIRT by it's very nature is the building block of God's Divine Love - for from dirt we came and from dirt we will then go.

I must go for my very dirty friend has asked for help with a gutter...otherwise I would have explained the nature of dirt more.

Thank you for your report.

Love,
Elaine

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:50:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Steve, you're fired. Elaine, want a job?
Message:
Elaine,

How'd you like to be a stringer for a small, internet-based collection of former cult members? Pay is 18 cents a word which, if you're clever, can put a couple a hundred dollars in your pocket just for watching a video basically.

But, like the sign says, we're looking for dirt. No, not just the word 'dirt' (like our last reporter recently submitted!) but, you know, dirt.

Let us know.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:37:38 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Steve, you're fired. Elaine, want a job?
Message:
Thanks Jim,
I think I may be clever enough to put even more than a couple hundred in my pocket...just don't have the time to watch any videos.

Thanks,though...
Regards,
Elaine

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:26:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: And we pay you how much a word for this?
Message:
Come on, Steve ... 'dirt'? That's it? 'Dirt'?

Steve! What about the dirt? Is it nice dirt at least? Can you eat it? I'm a little hungry right now and I'd like to know about dirt. Does Maharaji say it's okay for me to eat dirt? Cuase I've got a lot of dirt in my apratment right now but, hell, your paltry post leaves me thinking I've got to decide that by myself. Well, that's not what I got a Master for, now is it?

So .... what ABOUT the dirt, Steve?

Oh yeah, was Leon there? Chuck?

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:14:27 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Jim
Subject: And we pay you how much a word for this?
Message:
Attendance was slightly higher than last week's 12, around 15. But, unlike the customary 7 to 10 days notice on the local phone message line, last week's information was put on one day before the event. I thought for a few days that Vancouver EV was out of funds and had suspended satellite feeds.

As for Leon, Chuck and Dave, the lights were really low and I walked in at the last minute so I didn't really see.

Maybe they couldn't afford to pay the extra for ceiling lights.

Your humble reporter,

Steve Quint

P.S. Stop whining about having no master. Here are my main sources of knowledge of dirt.

Dictionary

Thesaurus

Go to Roget's Thesaurus

and enter the word 'dirt' for links to 12 other types of dirt.

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