Michael Dettmers -:- An e-mail from Elan Vital -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:34:59 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Interesting, isn't it? -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:43:35 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- To FA -- Hey my post is EMPTY.....(nt) -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 23:15:52 (GMT)

__ __ a0aji -:- FA - empty message by Joe on Monday 13:43:35 -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:38:39 (GMT)

__ Danny -:- An e-mail from Elan Vital -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 06:59:57 (GMT)

__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- An e-mail from Elan Vital -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 20:41:21 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- An Apoligist for a Cult. -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:21:45 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- one part you have right -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 15:00:30 (GMT)

__ __ gerry -:- I too find the contradictions confusing but -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 14:08:30 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Hold the front page.. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:55:18 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Is this tue? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:28:39 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Hard to say WHAT'S tue these days (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:01:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- Did you meet Castaneda, Jim? (see above) nt -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:10:41 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- An e-mail from Elan Vital -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:11:39 (GMT)

__ __ la-ex -:- Sir Dave and MD- I agree- e-mail from Elan Vital -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:54:57 (GMT)

__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- An e-mail from Elan Vital -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:01:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Being X-Rated -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:55:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Being X-Rated -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:45:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- really intense post -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:52:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bill -:- An e-mail from Elan Vital -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:27:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Thanks Mike, that explains it well and -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 01:05:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ DV -:- *** Best of Forum*** -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:39:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Everyone who accuses me of eny is RIGHT -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:42:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Jim, did you drink too much coffee Sunday AM? (NT) -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 19:48:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Jim YOU should write premie erotica -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 01:41:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Anonomousie -:- Jim/erotica?? Now that is an oxymoron! -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:13:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Here's A Suggestion, Jim.... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:55:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Here's A Suggestion, Jim.... -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 01:01:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Here's A Suggestion, Jim.... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 21:29:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ JTF -:- This revelation is Classic Cult Behavior(NT) -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:26:43 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Silence and privacy -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:04:29 (GMT)

__ janet schwartz -:- An e-mail from Elan Vital -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:03:10 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Where's there one drop of evidence? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:07:01 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Where's there one drop of evidence? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:30:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ ex-vermonter -:- Where's there one drop of evidence? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:37:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Yup, Yup, and .... -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 00:52:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Where's there one drop of evidence? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 23:04:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bill -:- Cynthia and AOAJi -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:56:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- The Hartford Community.... -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:00:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Cynthia and AOAJi -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:45:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bill -:- Cynthia and AOAJi -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:30:19 (GMT)

__ __ a0aji -:- Where's there one drop of evidence? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:30:23 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- getting stoned with Maharaj Ji -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:01:56 (GMT)

__ __ AA -:- getting drunk with Maharaj Ji -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:36:01 (GMT)

__ __ DV -:- That must explain why he bogarts the joint.(nt) -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 04:44:57 (GMT)

__ Rick -:- An e-mail from Elan Vital -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:52:37 (GMT)

__ billl burke -:- MD, a real man. Very Impressive.-nt -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:17:46 (GMT)

__ __ bill -:- Thanks Michael -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:33:20 (GMT)

__ Unity School - ex -:- e-mail from Elan Vital/I will call them Monday am -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:11:51 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Jagdeo turd rises again. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:35:32 (GMT)

__ Turner -:- An e-mail from Elan Vital -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:53:36 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Hi Nil/URL, how are you? Driven nuts yet? -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 02:45:29 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- You sound very familiar Turner... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:40:59 (GMT)

__ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- An e-mail from Elan Vital -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:29:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- Hold it right there Micky -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:24:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ M's Manicurist -:- Too funny -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 21:41:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ bill -:- good one Anth the befuddled;)..nt -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 21:12:20 (GMT)

__ __ Carol -:- Thankyou for affirming the heirarchy -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:53:06 (GMT)

__ __ anon -:- Turner-You must be kidding -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:51:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ Anon -:- Turner-You must be kidding - amendment -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:58:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Carol -:- Anon that was a great post :~) nt -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:56:44 (GMT)

__ X -:- drug culture -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:19:16 (GMT)

__ __ Gregg -:- the Stoned Lord -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:48:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ X -:- posited -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:39:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well that's simply wrong, X -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:46:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Well that's simply wrong, X -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 09:02:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ X -:- not simply so simple -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:12:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ the dude -:- acid or k, a good question -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:58:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ X -:- confusing mixtures -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:28:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- ketamine -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:32:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- ketamine is used as an anesthetic for animals -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:05:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- ketamine -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:58:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Isn't 'ketamine' a catfood brand? (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:38:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- get serious, mister -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:47:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Do you eat it or smoke it? (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 19:17:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kspace -:- k takes you there -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 12:13:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- learn about K from John Lilly,in his autobiography -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 00:13:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kspace -:- the ketamine experience -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 06:14:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ And On Anand Ji -:- the ketamine experience -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 06:51:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kspace -:- the ketamine experience -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 12:28:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Um, I partied with Lilly on k -- well, HE was on k -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 01:09:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- good story Jim (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 02:19:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ And On Anand Ji -:- Um, I partied with Lilly on k -- well, HE was on k -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 02:04:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- more on Ketamine -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:26:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- thanks, Carol -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 21:01:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Now don't YOU be simple -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:37:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ X -:- never so simple -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:49:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CHR -:- never so simple -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 06:57:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CHR -:- Above should read 'premies' not 'people'.nt -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:07:37 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- you tell em Michael -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:33:24 (GMT)

__ __ Carol -:- Hear hear/here here/read all about it?Thanx MD nt -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:00:36 (GMT)

__ Scott T. -:- An e-mail from Elan Vital -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:30:37 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- And the Hamster just has to be loving this! -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:28:13 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Wah, wah, wah, wa waah... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:17:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ Blackberry -:- Never trust a man.. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:35:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Never trust a man.. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:55:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ X -:- ding -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:42:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Nah - doesn't bug me... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:13:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ X -:- Nah - doesn't bug me... (OT) -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:44:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ the dude -:- Ha, ha, ha, you wouldn't be a premie by any chance -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:07:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- ok ok!! i said my *kids* liked it -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:21:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- My kids like pokemon - it's still crap.. -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:56:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hey you :) we are OT you know -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:00:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Hey - why would I curse the USA? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:46:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I didn'think YOU were dissing -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:50:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- No, I know you didn't...:) -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:58:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Hi Nigel (ot) -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:22:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- (OT) My kids know this as a safe place to live -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:06:44 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- hey even my kids liked that recording -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:54:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- OK, OK, Best album of all time! -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:00:15 (GMT)

__ __ a0aji -:- And the Hamster just has to be loving this! -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:51:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Frampton.... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:01:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Michael Bolton -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:06:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Michael Bolton was from the New Haven community... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:19:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Michael Bolton was from the New Haven community... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:33:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Michael Bolton stories -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:36:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ And On Anand Ji -:- Michael Bolton stories -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:46:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Michael Bolton stories -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:12:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- the story did circulate in the late 80's -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:44:22 (GMT)

__ Anon -:- An e-mail from Elan Vital -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:23:44 (GMT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- Priorities -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:36:02 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- Kudos for your courage, Michael -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:17:11 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Is this how you talk to an 'embezzler'? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:02:44 (GMT)

__ __ Carol -:- What is Stage II? nt -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:10:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- You write to Ex-Premie.org for your... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:47:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- LOL Most excellent and hilarious (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:02:34 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- thanks Michael. -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:56:26 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- so the PAMs got the best Prasad too huh? (nt) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:11:24 (GMT)

__ JohnT -:- Respect (nt) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:41:03 (GMT)

Salam -:- WARNING: Post contains Spiritual Material -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:21:33 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- It's not so bad here. -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:19:12 (GMT)

__ gerry -:- Maybe you would like this place... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:32:46 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Yes, for sure, RE's got your reservation, sir -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:48:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- Forgot to say -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:51:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- And -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:55:05 (GMT)

Salam -:- U.N. condems Isreal for use of force.(ot) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:11:26 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- But here's the real question, Salam -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:43:49 (GMT)

__ __ TD -:- I'll answer it! -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:07:05 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- But here's the real answer -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:48:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- You won't answer mine but pose your own? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:11:50 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Some Truths Never Die -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:14:54 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- How are you doing? (This is a long post) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:44:25 (GMT)

__ __ And On Anand Ji -:- How are you doing? (This is a long post) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:24:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Please refresh my memory.... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:21:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- If you'd like... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:18:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- If you'd like... -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 02:15:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ And On Anand Ji -:- If you'd like... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:44:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Oh Steve.....are you there? I'm waiting....(nt) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:23:29 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Some More Personal Stuff -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:44:10 (GMT)

__ janet -:- Some More Personal Stuff -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:16:07 (GMT)

__ __ Steven Quint -:- Some More Personal Stuff -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:05:18 (GMT)

Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:34:59 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Everyone Subject: An e-mail from Elan Vital Message:

I received the following e-mail from Terry Yingling, a member of the Elan Vital PR Team in response to my “I’ve been warned” posting on October 15, 2000. My response follows. October 19, 2000 Attn: Mr Michael Dettmers Dear Michael It has come to Elan Vital's attention from your recent posting that you have been the object of a threat. From what you appear to be saying, you are assuming the threat came from someone representing Elan Vital or Maharaji in some way. Though I feel saddened that it has come to a point where you could think this, I would like to assure you that the message that you received does not come from Elan Vital or Maharaji nor would it comply with any policies of either of them. For some years now, Elan Vital, Maharaji, his family and the many people who choose to listen to Maharaji's teaching have been attacked by various web sites but have not, do not and will not engage in like behavior. Everyone has the right to his or her own opinion, and if you wish to post on this forum, that is your choice and prerogative. Neither Maharaji nor Elan Vital would ever endorse harassments or threats of any kind. Maharaji has repeatedly expressed his wish for all people to grow in their lives, either with or without knowledge. We would like to take the opportunity to clarify some of your statements regarding the Jagdeo situation. Elan Vital did take Susan Haupt's assertions very seriously and did take action. It was largely through your efforts that Ms. Haupt brought her complaint directly to us. We offered to meet with her in an effort to help her and we asked what else she wanted Elan Vital to do regarding the Jagdeo matter. As her representative you informed us that she only wanted to be heard and did not wish to take the matter further. When the Mahatmas in India were released, each of them was asked if he or she had done anything wrong that they needed to account for. Jagdeo's response was negative (which may or may not be true). The person who interviewed Jagdeo, following the allegations made on the Internet, was the person who is responsible for the organization in India and the appropriate person to do so. This is different from when you were involved. Jagdeo was informed that if there were any truth to the allegations against him, he would face the legal consequences of his actions. We believe it is important for us to bring the above directly to your attention. Sincerely Terry Yingling For the Elan Vital PR Team Dear Terry, Thank you for your e-mail response to my “I’ve been warned” posting on the Ex-premie Forum on October 15, 2000. In your response, you interpret my assertion that, “I have received my first warning, no make that “threat”, from the pro-Maharaji camp” to mean that I am equating the “pro-Maharaji camp” with Élan Vital and/or Maharaji. While I can understand that you and others may have come to such a conclusion, I did not. In fact, I would have been very surprised if it came from Élan Vital and/or Maharaji if for no other reason than some of the specific threats that were made would be at odds with the terms of my contractual agreement. By “pro-Maharaji camp” I was simply referring to those cult members who still feel that it is their responsibility to defend their Lord from attack at all costs - Fakiranand style. Of course, such a warning would never have come from Élan Vital because, as you point out in you FAQ’s, Maharaji isn’t running a cult, nor is he anyone’s Lord, at least not any more. Obviously, Bill M has not yet come to grips with Maharaji’s re-interpretation of the past. Terry, I do not question your sincerity. However, I do believe you are being duped and used in much the same way Bill Clinton deceived those who were around him into believing that he was telling the truth when he denied having sexual relations with Monica Lewinski. Based on his denial, Clinton’s supporters, press secretary, and PR people strongly defended the President when he was under attack on this issue. When he finally confessed to the truth, they were justifiably angry and disgusted at being deceived and used to perpetuate his lies. I believe your situation is similar to their’s. Let me give you but one example of what I am talking about. In your FAQ “What were some of the changes made by Élan Vital?” you state that Maharaji “was recognized by several US cities for the significant effect his teaching was having in leading people away from the ‘drug culture’. As such, ashrams worked for a while precisely because of what was going on socially in the era in which they came about…” I think it is reasonable to interpret this statement to mean that the ashrams worked in the 70’s because they were sheltering its residents (including me) from the dangers of the drug culture. If that is so, it is completely at odds with what was going on during that same period, night after night, in Maharaji’s residence in Malibu. After Maharaji had dinner, he, and most of the residence staff, would gather in his living room to listen to music on his incredible sound system. As good and expensive as the sound system was, however, its effect was greatly enhanced by the joints that were freely passed around. Don’t get me wrong, I liked getting stoned and there is nothing quite like being passed a joint that had just been toked on by the Lord. When everyone was ripped, Maharaji loved to play “Frampton Comes Alive” at full volume. To me those were great times, but please spare me the bullshit about protecting us from the drug culture. The awards Maharaji received in this regard were a joke. They were as ridiculous as Elvis Presley receiving an honorary FBI badge from Nixon. Now, let’s talk about something far more serious – the Jagdeo situation. In my opinion, you completely miss the point when you continue to put the onus on Susan to do more than what she has already done. You already had enough evidence to properly address this matter. But you did not handle it properly, and here is my reason for saying so. Without any need for your patronizing tone, I am aware that things have changed since I left. But I do not believe that Maharaji has delegated the responsibility of making instructors to anyone other than himself. Of course, the instructors may be employees of, or independently contracted, by Élan Vital, but they always have been and still are “Maharaji’s” instructors. Just ask them whom they think they really work for. You state that the person who interviewed Jagdeo was the appropriate person to do so. I strongly disagree that the person responsible for the organization in India was the appropriate person to interview Jagdeo – unless, of course, the intention was to distance Maharaji as much as possible from what was becoming a potentially dangerous situation. In my opinion, Maharaji should have put any such considerations aside. When in India, he should have confronted Jagdeo personally. And, because I have no doubt that Jagdeo is guilty of the allegations as Maharaji would surely have discovered, Maharaji should have publicly disgraced him and allowed him to face the legal consequences. Maharaji should then have made a concerted effort to track down Jagdeo’s victims, personally apologized for the inexcusable actions of one of “his” mahatmas, and offered some restitution. That’s what a real leader would have done. But, of course, I forgot, Maharaji is not a leader according to your FAQ’s. Well you are absolutely right on that count, but not for the reasons you cite. Maharaji is not a leader because he is a coward and a hypocrite who is totally lacking in integrity. Michael Dettmers

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:43:35 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Interesting, isn't it? Message:

Great response, Michael. Very powerful. When I read Terry Yingling's letter, I at first wondered if it was a joke. It sounded just like some of the sarcastic 'Elan Vital' messages that parody that organization that have appeared here. Terry, what were you THINKING in writing that? Everytime Elan Vital says anything, they make it so much worse for themselves. One intersting thing I noticed. Terry said: From what you appear to be saying, you are assuming the threat came from someone representing Elan Vital or Maharaji in some way. Though I feel saddened that it has come to a point where you could think this, I would like to assure you that the message that you received does not come from Elan Vital or Maharaji nor would it comply with any policies of either of them. Note that Terry nowhere says she is sorry, is 'saddened,' or has any concern whatsoever that you were actually threatened the way you were. No, she is only 'saddened' that you might think Elan Vital or Maharaji had something to do with it. Interesting, isn't it? And there Elan Vital goes again with its 'policies.' Man, it appears that organization just institutes policies and that takes care of everything. It's just so impressive the way they do that. Maybe it's because of the way they work under leaderless teamwork and in synchronization all the time. Yes, that must be it. Terry, if you are reading this, has Elan Vital communicated in any way to its 'volunteers' or anyone else that the kind of treatening behavior inflicted on Michael is improper and will not be tolerated? Have you made any attempt to discover who Bill Murray is and in any way tell him that what he is doing is in violation of Maharaji's 'policies?' Are Maharaji's 'policies' that you claim such a threat violates written down anywhere, and may we review them, to understand what his 'policies' in this regard actually are? Has Maharaji ever spoken at any Elan Vital 'event' in which he said making threats against people who criticize either himself or Elan Vital, violates his policies? And when is Elan Vital going to stop implying that any investigative failure on Elan Vital's part for sexual molestation of children that went in Elan Vital perpetrated by Jagdeo, is the victim's fault? What would having a meeting with Susan, which you claim she didn't want, do to bring Jagdeo to justice and prevent him from sexually molesting more little girls or in furthering the investigation of Jagdeo that you have a moral obligation to conduct? What does that have to do with Elan Vital's obligations? And has Elan Vital made any attempt to find other victims of Jagdeo's moslestations? Has it made any request that others come forward? Has Maharaji talked to Jagdeo to satisfy himself that he isn't molesting the children of his 'students' in violation of his and Elan Vital's 'policies?' Finally, Terry, I remember you from the early 80s when you were traveling around the Western US, with the infamous ashram-inquisitor, David Smith as his 'assistant.' I remember how you used to complain to me and others that David Smith was torturing you and how difficult it all was. But it seems you got through it okay after all. You were a very nice person, though, and I liked you. You never seemed to me to be the kind of person who would try to cover-up the wrong-doing within an organization you were a part of. I hope that isn't the case now. Joe

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 23:15:52 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: FA Subject: To FA -- Hey my post is EMPTY.....(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:38:39 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: FA Subject: FA - empty message by Joe on Monday 13:43:35 Message:

Joe -:- Interesting, isn't it? -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 13:43:35 This message has no text or byline when retrieved.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 06:59:57 (GMT) From: Danny Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: An e-mail from Elan Vital Message:

'Maharaji is not a leader because he is a coward and a hypocrite who is totally lacking in integrity.' Michael Dettmers 2000 'Maharaji always treated me with great respect, dignity and love, not just while I worked with him, but also at the time of my departure.' Michael Dettmers 2000 'In time, I discovered how masterful he is in the domain he calls knowledge. By masterful I mean that he embodies the experience. And I have countless personal experiences in which I have witnessed that mastery in action.' Michael Dettmers 2000 Your new selective amnesia victim/Stockholm Syndrome turn is classy stuff, Mike. I'm sure your current friends and clients would be impressed with your discretion, consistency and trustworthiness. Danny

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 20:41:21 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Danny Subject: An e-mail from Elan Vital Message:

Danny, You are mistaken if you think I take any pleasure in denouncing someone I loved, respected and to whom I dedicated many years of my life. But the concerns I am addressing are far more important than whatever Michael Dettmers’ personal experience is or may have been. I have already explained why the tone and content of my posts have changed since I first began posting on the Forum last April. To reiterate, since April, Élan Vital has come out with its FAQ’s which completely distort the history of Maharaji and his mission in the 70’s and 80’s. In doing so, he completely denies the dedication, effort and money that so many people gave him in love and faith. To me that is indefensible. Then there is the Jagdeo matter. I feel so strongly about this issue that I wrote to Maharaji personally. You have read the response Susan received from Élan Vital as well as Terry Yingling’s recent comments. My response reflects a genuine disgust with the way Maharaji and Élan Vital have handled it. I elaborate on this point in my post above where I respond to La-ex. Thanks for your concern, Danny, but if it’s any consolation, I have never felt saner in my life. Michael

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:21:45 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Danny Subject: An Apoligist for a Cult. Message:

Danny, Get a clue. 'Stockholm Syndrome?' Are you implying that Mr. Dettmers has been kidnapped or held hostage (or as Dubya would say 'held hostile?')? You are kidding, right? Ever heard of citing specifics? Ever heard of 'evolving' like Maharaji claims to have done? Hey, one thing that is evident from anyone who reads the Journeys or the posts here is well aware, getting in touch with what you really feel and know about Maharaji and the cult takes some digging, and some time. We were all to cult-programmed for that not to be necessary. If you value 'consistency' so much, what do you have to say about your Lord and Master claiming to be the incarnation of God (as numerous quotes on this website demonstrate) for years, but now lying, blatantly, on the Elan Vital website that he never claimed any such thing? Do you think there is any lack of integrity there when he won't even admit what he did? Are you being 'inconsistent', Danny? Or is it that consistency is only an issue for other people and not the former Lord of the Universe? Is there a doublt standard here? This is how people in a cult think, Danny. But I'm sure you don't think you are in one, but thanks for the demonstration anyway. Joe

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 15:00:30 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Danny Subject: one part you have right Message:

I'm sure your current friends and clients would be impressed with your discretion, consistency and trustworthiness If they are not cult members, yes, they will be very impressed. Most people are aware of the phenomenon of cults, and can see Rawat and crew for what it is at first glance. I think that Michael will have no trouble explaining what he is doing and why, and frankly I think most people of integrity, even who had never heard of the guru, will be supportive.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 14:08:30 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Danny Subject: I too find the contradictions confusing but Message:

I realize it was a mind control cult and Michael got an especially heavy dose of it. I would be interested in hearing how goober 'embodies the experience of knowledge' though...

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:55:18 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Hold the front page.. Message:

What a wonderfully refreshing post Michael, hopefully to be saved for posterity at the House of eDrek or somewhere. Thanks for that. It's interesting they've admitted they questioned Jagdeo- but still kind of made it look 'sort of routine'. They denied any kind of investigation at all earlier. Also- they kind of give the impression he was interviewed and asked questions relating to allegations on the internet when he quit being a Mahatma. The allegations on the internet appeared from Autumn 98 onwards. I thought they said he quit being a mahatma in 95. This means they must have interviewed him again after the allegations appeared- specifically as part of an investigation. This could be part of the investigation Ron Jeaves told Jethro about. Ron Jeaves gave the impression that Jagdeo was heavily implicated in further offences. We could ask them to come clean about what they found out. If your line of communication is still open with them, I thought of a couple of things you could ask them, which I posted under a reply to 'Unity School ex' below. Good luck. I had personal correspondance with Glen about it, then it became official, and eventually they stopped answering my letters and emails. It's great to see you posting here Michael. The last time I saw you was when I was a consultant for UCM and they invited me to a workshop you ran for them, something about motivation at work. (I finally got that one sorted out, it's MONEY.) Anth the bornagainbreadhead Anth

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:28:39 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Is this tue? Message:

And I actually thought that was a spoof email the 1st time I read this ! Thanks again !!

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:01:53 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Hard to say WHAT'S tue these days (nt) Message:

ffffff

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:10:41 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitz.. To: Jim Subject: Did you meet Castaneda, Jim? (see above) nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:11:39 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Michael Dettmers Subject: An e-mail from Elan Vital Message:

Were the people close to Guru Maharaj Ji in those days sworn to secrecy regarding his dope smoking? If your average premie (and certainly me) had been told then that God in human form got stoned every night with his close devotees, then your average premie would not have followed Maharaji for much longer. If I had known back then, all of the things about Maharaji which you knew at that time, I would never have followed him or listened to another word he said. I wonder if you realise this, Mike? Many people rightly feel aggrieved that Maharaji's true personality and behaviour were kept a secret by those closest to him and he was continually marketed as the Lord to all us unsuspecting, trusting and naive premies.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:54:57 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Sir Dave and MD- I agree- e-mail from Elan Vital Message:

Sir Dave and Michael Dettmers- I am continually amazed at what I am hearing now, but never knew or even suspected then. I remember going into the NY area trying to sell 'And it is Divine', the official DLM magazine. There were actually a few good articles in some of the issues, but they would always be followed by the pitiful and insipid 'satsangs' from maharaji or one of the holy family.I tried not to notice the differences, and just sell the store-owner a few mags on consignment... I remember one issue especially, in which maharaji gave this satsang about 'everyone tells kids not to do drugs, but no one gives them an alternative experience'. Obviously, knowledge was the alternative. I remember specifically talking to a counselor at a drug rehab center, telling him how knowledge was the answer...once you had knowledge, you didn't need drugs...now I understand that m was lighting up a big fat joint and listening to 'frampton comes alive', while I was trying to peddle his stupid magazine, telling people that once you had knowledge, you didn't need to get high with drugs anymore....I feel so naive and so taken sometimes when I hear things like this... I still like Abby Hoffman's take on the millenium festival: 'If this guy is god, then this is the god that america deserves!' La-ex (these revelations make me angry,cringe, and laugh at myself all at the same time...but all are helping in the process of understanding myself and sorting out the past....)

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:01:48 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Sir Dave Subject: An e-mail from Elan Vital Message:

Sir Dave, When I look back, I am painfully aware that I was a willing accomplice in a conspiracy of lies and hypocrisy for which I have no excuse. I can only reference Anth’s post below as a useful reminder of the prevailing cosmology or belief system at the time. For the most part, the people who were recruited into Maharaji’s inner circle at the time were ashram premies who had been doing full-time service for some time and had demonstrated a serious commitment to Maharaji. They were well-known to, and often did service along side, premies who were in the inner circle. Many were also known by Maharaji as well. To be admitted into the inner circle, however, they first had to be “X-rated” (Maharaji’s term). This meant that someone who was already X-rated sat them down and carefully explained that all of the ashram rules they had been taught and expected to obey did not apply to Maharaji. They were then told that whatever they see and hear around Maharaji is not to be spoken about, ever. Finally, the person was asked if they had a problem with any of this. If they expressed shock, or concern, or had a problem, they would not be admitted. But I personally X-rated at least 25 or 30 people and no one ever said that it would be a problem for them. They were too excited about the opportunity of serving Maharaji personally after being at the periphery for so long. Michael

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:55:44 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Being X-Rated Message:

Michael, I remember the mindset quite well, and I'm sure if I was called to be at 'the residence' or in the 'Office of Guru Maharaj Ji,' I would have readily agreed to keep my mouth shut about anything I saw going on, for fear that I would be sent away, displease Maharaji, whom I believed to be the incarnation of God, or lose the exhaulted status one had if one was close to Maharaji. Yes, I I'm sure I would have done the same thing, at least for awhile. In another sense, I remember lying even to premies because I was told by Elan Vital that was what Maharaji wanted. And it did at one point become a moral and ethical issue for me. I remember when we were trying to raise millions for the Boeing 707 monstrosity in 1979 and 1980, as a Community Coordinator, I was eventually told that the money was going toward the plane, but we were instructed by Elan Vital that we were to lie to the premies and to tell the premies who we were asking them to donate money for Maharaji's 'world tour' and not to a plane. The reason for this misrepresentation, we were told by Elan Vital, was because Maharaji didn't want to draw attention to the plane from the press, who already were reporting the wealthy lifestyle Maharaji lived, and we didn't want to draw the attention of the FAA, the State of Florida OSHA, etc., who might scrutinize some of the things going on in the plane project. I felt uneasy about this, felt on some level that it was wrong, but when Elan Vital told me that was what Maharaji wanted, I just lied to people, and rationalized that it was what I had to do. And I remember being instructed by Elan Vital during several 'emergency' fundraisers, to ask premies to go into debt, to borrow money from their credit cards and donate as much as they could, in cash, because that was what Maharaji wanted. Any many people did it, many whom I knew did not have the money and were affecting themselves and their families negatively for doing so. Even in this situation, I carred on the lie, even though I felt kind of sick about it. So, I could imagine that if I was asked to be around Maharaji serving him, I would have agreed to almost any form of dishonesty, if that was what Maharaji wanted. That was the mindset, that's true. Joe

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:45:31 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Joe Subject: Being X-Rated Message:

So, what -- you just offer those people a shrug and perhaps an apology, and move on?

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:52:57 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: really intense post Message:

I had heard about this 'x-rated' stuff before ( not while I was a premie ) and now having it confirmed is pretty intense. I am sure that I would have failed anyone's 'x rated' tests as I have one of those faces that does nothing to hide my emotions. Must have been as intense as hell living in that world. I can't really fathom it. It actually frightens me a bit and I feel really lucky I got out before I possibly became a true insider. I think living with the contradiction, having to deal with the off and on stage persona and the 'putting on a show' aspects must have been truly difficult for the soul. I imagine it was like being lost in a crazy whirlwind. Maybe that is part of why those residence types always seemed so perpetually exhausted and isolated. Sometimes here a post sort of breaks through and I see a reality of the cult I never saw and this is an obvious one. Again, Michael, I want to thank you for sharing your insights, they are very valuable. I give you a lot of credit too, for leaving the cult, getting your life together, and becoming a 'real' human being with real values and integrity. I think you came from an environment in that inner sanctum that had the potential to completely destroy a person's soul, I am glad it didn't get yours.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:27:32 (GMT) From: Bill Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: An e-mail from Elan Vital Message:

I remember the night m put you on the spot about singing opera. He had a grip on you like he did on us and we can certainly understand the depths of the programming and how the whole cult came at us and how hard it was to refute no matter what cracks allowed doubt. He played the doubt card really hard. You were probably there when the ultimate ruler told the initiators that 'you are scratching at a 900 foot thick wall of steel' to get that 'experience' and 'you havent even scratched the surface yet'. ALWAYS he would keep the dominant position where we could only kiss his feet and HOPE that he somehow might be pleased with us even though 'you might do something wrong that guru maharaj ji doesnt like and you might think you did nothing wrong but gmj will never forgive you EVER'. The intensity of his domination was such that no one can point a finger at you as if you were free from it. I remember the opera incident happened in the early eighties. Speaking of early eighties, I did hear in the nineties that m used to show porno at the residence in Miami. Maybe that was part of the changing after dinner format. I did hear that m went through a period where he told lots of dirty jokes to the instructors. Is that true as well? I think no one here judges you at all for anything. We were innocent. I remember on one of his later birthdays you DID sing. You were around him enough for him to have gotten real angry at you I would imagine. And swear at you I would guess as well. When you sort of implied m saying 'fuck you' in your post, I had a feeling that you have heard him say that to you in person. Some have said here that he swore a lot. Is that true as well? After reading your post I am reminded of this story. Milky Cole used to make a fuss to m to 'give him that experience' and one day Milky says he did. It lasted all day. My guess today is that our lord gave him some prasad with a hit of acid in it. I have the quote somewhere from those days where he talked about lsd. How it gets you above the clouds but you run out of fuel. Our lord would 'give us that experience' that would never run out of fuel. Or so he would always say.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 01:05:28 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Thanks Mike, that explains it well and Message:

lays to rest one or two ghosts which have been haunting people for some time. It's very good that this stuff has finally come out into the open. You and others were obviously members of a cult within a cult. None of us knew what we were really into in those days. We couldn't see the wood for the trees. I'm glad that you and others feel free to tell the truth of what happened. This helps everyone.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:39:43 (GMT) From: DV Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: *** Best of Forum*** Message:

This is the first I ever heard this term. Now I understand the long stare I got from Pudge and Mala as he drove out the gate, which was to be my last night doing service ar the res. I just wasn't an x-rated candidate. Damn! And Thank You God...:)

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:42:51 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Everyone who accuses me of eny is RIGHT Message:

God, Michael, I have to admit, even now that sounds exciting. Imagine, there you are, another beautiful, warm late October afternoon in Southern California. As you turn off PCH, you stop in for a drink at Trancas Market. Your buddy who's driving this incredible unit, who you knew from even before Knowledge, who you gave satsang to -- what was it? maybe three years ago at best -- who somehow made just that right impression on that someone or other at National (a guy who's own 'stock' as Raja Ji called it skyrocketed over the last year) and who's been doing direct service for Maharaji for a full three months now, who somehow talked Dettmers into calling you down here now too, wants one of those new, expensive Gotu something-or-other drinks. You smirk a little, just to yourself, thinking about how you never even thought of buying one of these expensive drinks back home. Mahatmas drank this stuff. It was expensive and you'd never even tried one. But now, here you are, actually sitting in one of Maharaji's cars and money, big or small, doesn't seem real. It's really all his grace, isn't it? This is what you're thinking as you wait watching your friend come back out. He stops to say hi to someone. She's holding a baby on her hip. Who's the guy? He turns a bit and you recognize him as someone who'd been through your community back home for a few weeks before some festival last year. What was his name? Guido or something? Ricardo! From Spain, that's it. 'Zat kid his? She's kind of cute. Don't remember her with him back then. But then you're an ashram premie, you remind yourself for what has to be the twentieth time that day. Ever since you got to go with your friend to pick up Maharaji's car you've seen one gorgeous sister after another. It isn't summer anymore, no, but is one beautiful Indian summer and a few of those girls you saw in Beverly Hills .... But why think like that? You're sitting in the Lord's car, for God's sake! Your friend gets back in. You ask about those premies. What are they all about? He shrugs them off, they're just hanging out, waiting for a little darshan maybe. And you think again about how amazingly fucking lucky you are. Darshan? You were actually talking to Him this morning! Well, you were there anyway. You were right there when he told your friend to drive like He Himself was in the car. Yeah, it was a joke but it was also so cosmic. As IF He had to remind you! You were going to pranam but luckily you'd waited to see what your friend did first. No pranams. Fine. Must mean no pranams all the fucking time! Yes, you're giddy. You can't believe you're finally here. You try, like you've been trying ever sine you got down here less than a week ago (it seemed like a lifetime!), you try to just r e m e m b e r t h e w o r d, r e m e m b e r t h e w o r d. But it IS pretty hard when you're sitting right in His car! So here you are driving up Anacapa Drive. The sun's just glowing like a big, golden magic lantern of grace and you realize, ohmygodthisissobeautifulmaharaji, you realize that all your life you've been preparing for this. The Lord is on the planet and somehow, your love is so small but somehow he's teaching you, and you jsut pray, so humbly, you don't want to get caught up in anything. Yeah, you know that your friend and the guys he's been staying with get a bit of money now. Who cares? You were perfectly fine in His ashram, anywhere. You know you can't be attached. You know that. Yet, you also know that you hope you get to stay forever. And now, at the top, isn't this fucking amazing! This house is like on another planet. The ocean, down there, sparkling in the late fall sunset. Oh Maharaji, we've brought your car back just the way you wanted, Lord. R e m e m b e r h o l y n a m e and you keep trying. But you know you're just beaming. Hey, that sister over there ... where'd SHE come from? All the premies up here seem so .... you just try to meditate. This is so perfect. You wait outside by the garage, just trying to look natural, trying to meditate. Your friend comes back out. Hey, he says, I've got great news for you. What could it be? Everything's been great since you got here. What could it be? Has Dettmers said anything yet about service or anything? Sure enough, he tells you to go down to the office, Dettmers wanted to talk to you. Your heart goes nuts. R e m e m b e r t h e h o l y n a m e. You walk down to the office just exuding discretion. You know what's up, at least you kind of know. And you also know that they grew to trust you back home. That's how you got here. You can be trusted. He's going to ask you something and you jsut have to give it all to you, Lord. Oh please, Maharaji, please let me stay. Please, I'm not attached ... yes, I'm attached. Please, Lord, don't send me back. I belong here. You knock on the door and Dettmer's assistant calls you in. Michael wants to see you, she smiles. And as you walk into hos office, he ask you to shut the door behind you. This is so fucking exciting! R e m e m b e r t h e h o l y n a m e .....Whatever you want, Maharaji, I'm your man Yeah, I wish I'd been there. Sounded like fun. And look at these premies over here

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 19:48:25 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, did you drink too much coffee Sunday AM? (NT) Message:

NT

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 01:41:39 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim YOU should write premie erotica Message:

I think you just did.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:13:55 (GMT) From: Anonomousie Email: None To: Selene Subject: Jim/erotica?? Now that is an oxymoron! Message:

I used to post from Jims computer when I was living with him as his housekeeper till he kicked me out. Given the choice of two evils, I always pick the one I havent tried yet. Jim singled me out of 30 other women he loved to live with him. Why? I didnt have a cat. I guess I am old fashioned I couldnt sleep with a guy unless we were living together. I can explain Jim's forum antics to you. He told me how he being a lawyer comes so natural. 'Were only human. And being human means being an animal. And being an animal means that when another animal gets something we want, a bone, whatever, we have this enormous need to rip its throat out.' Whenever I dwell for any length on my own shortcomings, they gradually begin to seem mild, harmless, rather engaging little things, not at all like the glaring defects that Jim would make a major legal attack on! Men say they like independence in a woman, but they dont waste a second demolishing it brick by brick. After removing his trousers, 'little' Jimmy said 'try these on' I say 'I cant wear those!' and he says 'now just remember that I wear the pants here.' So I tossed him my panties and said 'put them on' and he said I cant get into your panties' and I said 'thats right, and you wont get into them until you change your attitude!' Who do atheists talk to during sex? You guessed it. 'oh oh oh oh GOD oh oh' I'm like 'Not already!!' SO, I tell him that my last boyfriend, someone Jimmy plays golf with, gets it up after a couple minutes and we do it again. So, after some time he does and we do. Then I tell him again that his friend waits a couple minutes more and then we would do it AGAIN. Jimmy reaches over for the phone and I say 'what are you doing?' and he says 'I am calling that guy and asking him what is par for this hole'. Bastard. It is late and my new golfer is waiting and his putter is aflutter. Goodnight!

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:55:29 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Jim Subject: Here's A Suggestion, Jim.... Message:

I think you and Cynthia should collaborate on a Divine Bodice Ripper series. You can write the abject, yet ever hopeful premie part, and Cynthia, since she's already displayed her ability to speak 'guru,' can write M's part. It's a sure fire winner. To bad the title 'Love Among The Ruins' has already been used.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 01:01:08 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Here's A Suggestion, Jim.... Message:

Dear Monmot and Jim, Geeze Jim, are you trying to get the gopie in me to come out? Monmot, I have a prayer journal to m (a private journal) that I found recently in my m junk box. I hereby nominate myself for the 'Outstanding Kabir Prayers To the Satguru' award. All are invited to the ceremonies. Write a book? I'm already working on one.....::) Yous guys, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 21:29:27 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Here's A Suggestion, Jim.... Message:

I don't know. I can imagine things okay I guess but I don't know think my mind can get past the Hamster's bedroom door. There's a smell to that cage. I just won't go there.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:26:43 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: This revelation is Classic Cult Behavior(NT) Message:

abba dabba

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:04:29 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Silence and privacy Message:

Hi Sir Dave, When I first went down to Reigate, prior to teaching Wadi, Hansi, and Daya, it was very clearly explained to me that everything that went on around me, I saw, heard or whatever, was to be kept confidential. I wasn't to talk to premies about things, and I wasn't to talk about it in satsang. Just after I'd been asked to teach the children, I talked about it one night in community satsang. A couple of days later somebody took me aside and told me I shouldn't have said anything about it to anybody, etc. This was just really simple, inoffensive, inane stuff. The premies who were smoking dope etc with Maharaji would have been under no illusions that they could talk about what they were doing. And the justification for it all in terms of the Perfect Master and his imperfect behaviour is that, 'He is in the world but not of the world.' Ie, he is playing in his creation. He is not affected by these things. (Even if he passes out). And of course, questioning the Master is public enemy number one- DOUBT. Ah- the world of lilas. I remember it well. Anth lila marlene

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:03:10 (GMT) From: janet schwartz Email: Jai_Choix@webtv.net To: Michael Dettmers Subject: An e-mail from Elan Vital Message:

some thoughts to keep at hand, in the correspondence that is likely to issue from this encounter: Jagdeo committed these pedophilic crimes “under color of authority”, which makes them more serious than simple molestation. it might put him in the same category as a judge who coerces sex from the wife of a defendent, before he will grant leniency in sentencing her spouse. It would be on a par with a priest defiling alter boys and acolytes in his tutelege. Jagdeo was a university professor of nine languages in India, and a Mahatma of Guru Maharaj Ji, which compounds the crime on two counts, and two different abuses of 'color of authority': one as a pedagogue, the other as a priest. the third is inherent in all molestation cases, that of the adult over a child. while India may be his country of citizenship by birth, there is always extradition, since he committed his crimes in the UK and in the USA and we have witnesses/victims of his, who both want justice and can testify in the first person. Jagdeo did not have diplomatic immunity while globally traveling as maharaji's direct agent. just some tidbits to keep close at hand, if millbank, tweed and hadley come snuffling round the door. ahh-screw it. lets move first. they hate that.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:07:01 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Where's there one drop of evidence? Message:

In your FAQ “What were some of the changes made by Élan Vital?” you state that Maharaji “was recognized by several US cities for the significant effect his teaching was having in leading people away from the ‘drug culture’. As such, ashrams worked for a while precisely because of what was going on socially in the era in which they came about…” I think it is reasonable to interpret this statement to mean that the ashrams worked in the 70’s because they were sheltering its residents (including me) from the dangers of the drug culture. Where in any of the millions of words that Maharaji, his family or the Mahatma's ever uttered about the ashram was it ever once stated that these cult prisons were there to save people from drugs? Nowhere, that's where. The truth is that, as a publicity stunt with absolutely no real tie to the cult we all know and lived in, premies in a couple of towns got their unsuspecting city halls to give Maharaji some sort of meaningless honorarium, like the 'key to the city'. Maharaji was at just such an event in Detroit when Pat Halley threw the cream pie at him. I've got a copy of another one right here, dated February 27, 1973, from the General Assembly of the State of Connecticut, that Bill sent me because, as we know, HE can't type: RESOLUTION RECOGNIZING THE GOOD WORK GURU MAHARAJI HAS DONE IN CONNECTICUT Resolved by this Assembly: WHEREAS, the Guru Maharaj Ji arrived for the first time in the United States in 1971, and since that time has attracted thousands of disciples who were completely inspired by his radiant personality; and WHEREAS, now there are many centers of his Divine Light Mission in nearly every major city in the United States and Canada; and WHEREAS, the Guru Maharaj Ji has dedicated his life to uplifting mankind from the sufferings of ignorance by spreading the knowledge of God; and WHEREAS, the Guru Maharaj Ji has carried his mission throughout the world, bestowing on all seekers of truth the direct experience of God by revealing the primordial vibrations of all life; NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that this assembly unites in thanking Guru Maharaj Ji for all the alleviation of inward suffering that he has brought about and the incentive Guru Maharaj Ji has brought about for people to work constructively in the outside world. BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that this assembly unites in extending an invitation to Guru Maharaj Ji to visit Connecticut and travel, bringing his message of peace to all residents of our state. BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that the clerks of the house and senate cause a copy of this resolution to be sent to the Guru Maharaj Ji as an expression of the high esteem in which he is held in this assembly. [signed] Robert M. Milvae Clerk of the Senate [signed] Lucille M. Dow Clerk of the House [signed] House Joint Resolution No. 90 Gloria Schaffer Adopted February 27, 1973 Secretary of State Obviously this junk was nothing more than a DLM public relations officer milkshake. So sometimes they threw in something about 'combatting drug addiction' or something. But, really, the ashrams were no more shelters from drugs than they were shelters from sex, or shelters from having your own money or bank account. What a joke.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:30:04 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jim Subject: Where's there one drop of evidence? Message:

Yeah, Jim, The resolution you posted above was done by a Hartford premie's father who was a Conn. state legislator at the time. That premie, with whom I had a relationship from 1976 to about 1978, showed me that resolution and even back then I thought is was quite hokey. Meaningless pieces of paper, I say. No one but the premies knew it existed, and it was done because that particular premie's father drafted it and got it signed. BFD. Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:37:59 (GMT) From: ex-vermonter Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Where's there one drop of evidence? Message:

Cynthia-was that premie named Scott Ritter? Also, do you know any of these vermonters(p's or ex-p's): Eric Bergland and wife Bruce Talbot Martha dolan Just curious, I used to live in Vermont a long time ago....

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 00:52:02 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: ex-vermonter Subject: Yup, Yup, and .... Message:

It sure was Scott Ritter. He's a whole other story. Eric and his wife were the folks I met early on when I tried to go back to m in 98. Charlene is the 'contact' person, at least the last time I went to their house. I refuse to have any contact, it's just not good for me. They got the 'dish' and held feeds at their house. It really got so expensive to go to watch a feed, not to mention the distance, as you know, there's no direct route to anywhere in Vermont, especially because I live in no. central, in the valley. Winter driving doesn't bother me, but a 75 mile round trip over gaps isn't fun when those surprise squalls hit. When I realized m was a flim flam man, I just stopped going. Don't know Martha Dolan. Nobody tried to get close to eachother like in the old days. All the leaves are about gone up here, btw, huntin' season's already started for bows, next come the guns and licker' to camp. I'm really hoping Cabot Hosiery Mills has their yearly 'huntin' season sock sale.' Men go huntin' wimin' go shoppin'. What a state! I love it. Best, Cynthia Bye, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 23:04:06 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: ex-vermonter Subject: Where's there one drop of evidence? Message:

Can you say JSCA? :)

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:56:47 (GMT) From: Bill Email: None To: a0aji Subject: Cynthia and AOAJi Message:

Hi guys, maybe we should team up and tell the story of Hartford for Forum Posterity in a thread sometime. I am not up to it yet. We could just chime in together in a thread. We could dedicate it to Debbie Katz. I go back to pre Millenium.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:00:41 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Bill Subject: The Hartford Community.... Message:

Bill, You have a great idea, but I too, am not ready for that, although it would be great fun. I'm curious about a some of our mutual friends...email me if you'd like at: sylviecyn@yahoo.com. The dedication to Debbie Katz is a wonderful idea. I still remember her sweet face and kindness. I also remember times when she seems to be so confused and depressed. So sad...I remember before she moved into the Bond St. sister's ashram, going to her father's house in West Hartford. He was/is a psychiatrist. Since Louie told me about her suicide years ago, I've agonized about what I might have done for her. Too late. Cults are terrible. Remember how we used to rationalize that we were not in a 'cult,' because we had knowledge? We didn't 'believe,' rather, WE KNEW! Love, Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:45:21 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Bill Subject: Cynthia and AOAJi Message:

The best thing in Hartford premie life was the hatch in the roof of the Bond Street ashram, and the view from the top of the Hartford Seminary. Man that Seminary was a hotbed of premie activity! How about carrying whats-his-name down the stairs at Woodland & Farmington Ave, in his wheel chair -- that guy was scared shitless -- I think they dropped him once. Let's not forget Frank, Death Goldstein, Sanford, and that guy with the mirrored sunglasses (not Louie Nhile). Those were the people who made your eyes pop out of your head in astonishment. Sanford was such a f*cking trip. You know that Jonn's here now, don't you?

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:30:19 (GMT) From: Bill Email: bburke@rocketmail.com To: a0aji Subject: Cynthia and AOAJi Message:

Jonn! WOW. I just put his tape on earlier! One side is called Starwanders and the other is called Visitations. Email me his posting name if he you think that is ok. I post these days only as Bill. Although I did use ME a few days ago. And tonight I reused ANONOMOUSIE:) Go check out that post.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:30:23 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: Jim Subject: Where's there one drop of evidence? Message:

I've seen that exact paper, actually. Had some kind of a seal on it, like Birth Certificates do.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:01:56 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: getting stoned with Maharaj Ji Message:

In my brief months in the ashram (in Denver, 1978) I remember hearing 'satsang' to the effect that GMJ used to fire up a joint and pass it around the room (in the Kittredge Building, on 16th St. in Denver)...and it would never touch his lips again. He was the Master. Why would he touch his lips to the saliva of his students? Jesus washed his students' feet, but, after all, Maharaj Ji was even greater than God. It was hard to integrate that tidbit into my monastic faith, but, of course, I did. For a while. People, wake up! A Perfect Master who smoked dope and drank like a fish? (Past tense: maybe he's sober now.)

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:36:01 (GMT) From: AA Email: None To: Gregg Subject: getting drunk with Maharaj Ji Message:

On his website there is a 'poem'' where he says 'someday I will be sober'.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 04:44:57 (GMT) From: DV Email: None To: Gregg Subject: That must explain why he bogarts the joint.(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:52:37 (GMT) From: Rick Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: An e-mail from Elan Vital Message:

I've been reading this forum for three years, and I have to say that's the best stuff I've read so far.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:17:46 (GMT) From: billl burke Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: MD, a real man. Very Impressive.-nt Message:

jhff

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:33:20 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: billl burke Subject: Thanks Michael Message:

I am not sure if you know how much it helps to hear the true facts. Even after help from the forum and common sense and other evidence, I think for many exes there is a wierd corner of doubt that can resonate once in a while because of the depth of the programming. Your testimony can and will really help many accept reality. And will help remove the deeply rooted programming and wrongly placed faith. Just telling the truth as impressively as you do is a real gift to me, and many others that have little chance without someone with credibility like yours taking the time to free us. I could name some names here of people that visit the forum frequently that are deeply bound and come here for help but we offer them not enough. It really does cripple thier lives and your honesty and integrity and franky your heart is like a saving grace. To you, you are just being yourself. To others includeing myself, you are a god send. Thank you

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:11:51 (GMT) From: Unity School - ex Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: e-mail from Elan Vital/I will call them Monday am Message:

Dear Michael- I'm not sure if you saw my post from a few months ago, regarding a situation I witnessed at Unity School in Denver in the late 70's. I was basically told that Jagdeo had special 'kids satsangs' in one of the classrooms after school ours. What went on there? I was told that he would turn the lights off,have the kids lie in a circle,and he would tell them 'satsang type stories' as they lie on the floor in the dark. Although this sounded strange at the time to me (I didn't suspect sexual abuse, but rather an attempt to brainwash kids, which I believed to be contrary to my educational philosophy, as well as maharaji's and unity/waldorf as well) I didn't make waves about it, until this past year I rememberr reading about the sexual abuse at the unity school in England, and realized that his 'MO' seemed to be the same. Thank you for sharing your stories with us, and thank you for your courage. I will be contacting EV on Monday morning,mostly due to your post and what I feel from it. Thank you once again.... Unity school ex

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:35:32 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Unity School - ex Subject: Jagdeo turd rises again. Message:

Hi again, Good to see you're still around. I thought of you when I read Michael's beautiful post above. Maybe we could ask Michael if Elan Vital would like to get in touch with their supporters and ask them if they, or their relatives, spent time with Jagdeo when they were children, and if this was the case, were they subject to any form of abuse. They could write a letter to all their members and post something on their websites. He could also ask them what they are doing to prevent him continuing his criminal activities at this present time. This one just doesn't go away. Anth the Unity School - ex too

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:53:36 (GMT) From: Turner Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: An e-mail from Elan Vital Message:

Michael You, who admittedly enjoyed the opportunity as a young man to affiliate with Maharaji on a personal level; who not so long ago still 'loved and respected' him for his many 'remarkable qualities', sit in judgement on him now on something that happened completely out of today's context. What does smoking dope have to do with whether or not Knowledge is true. Michael get real. Of course the ashrams protected people from the dangers of drugs. I personally knew a number of people, as I'm sure did you, who God knows where they would have ended up if not for the protection afforded by the ashram during those years. I was one of them. The fact that you all apparently partook of smoking dope with him in what you surely must have felt was a protected environment in no way diminishes the real potential danger the ashrams protected people from. Rules are for people who are not free. When freedom comes, the rules can go. Perhaps he thought you guys were free enough. You got to see behind the rules and potentially better understand the spirit of his message. But look at you today. Total amnesia! If you wanted a 'master' that was an up-tight ashram devotee just like you, you should have joined the Krishnas. Old A.C. seemed to me like a pretty upstanding example of their dogma. Michael you have done the most natural thing someone who stops believing in Maharaji does. Turn against him. Without an experience of Knowledge, what else could a logical person do? After you have purged yourself of any fond memories of your life as a premie; after you have let the passage of time diminish the poiniency of his words, what else could an honest, thinking person do but turn against him? That's fine. It just troubles me to see someone I used to respect from a distance resort to using stupid tit-for-tat arguments like 'he smoked dope so that nulifies the protective nature of the ashram'. That's just really dumb. The fact is Michael the ashrams did protect people from a lot of things during a period in their lives when they arguably not only needed it but wanted it. It provided an environment where they were free enough from such distractions where they could focus on knowing themselves. You see not all of us were free when we were 24 years old. It wouldn't work for me today, so I daren't judge my past by my current standards. I'm surprised you have stooped to doing just that. T

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 02:45:29 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Turner Subject: Hi Nil/URL, how are you? Driven nuts yet? Message:

Well, well, well, in yet another incarnation, we have the great NIL/URL coming in to say the most ridiculous things, apparently without any awareness of how off the wall they are, and how ignorant they make you look. Your suggestion that the ashrams were for protecting people from drugs is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard. That is a big lie, and you know it. And by the way, can you find even ONE quote from Maharaji saying that's what they were for? Funny, if that was the case, how come the Lord never got around to mentioning it, until years later when he had to try to explain away an institution, which he did say, over and over, was for the sole purpose of providing a place where someone could dedicate his or her whole life to HIM. Funny how nobody ever told us that until now. And I think Michael was partly being sarcastic, you dolt. I think he was saying that if the Elan Vital FAQs weren't teh joke they are, and if Maharaji had set up the ashrams to protect people from drugs, it didn't do much for Michael when HE was in the ashram, because Maharaji actually SUPPLIED Michael with drugs. So, as usual, I think you missed the point. Having you buttons pushed, Nil? I thought so.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:40:59 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Turner Subject: You sound very familiar Turner... Message:

If you don't mind me asking, under which alias(es) did you previously post here?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:29:00 (GMT) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Turner Subject: An e-mail from Elan Vital Message:

'Rules are for people who are not free. When freedom comes, the rules can go.' Boy, of all the stupid, Gnostic bull-shit I have read from Premies here, that one really takes the cake. You are just another muddle-headed pot head.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:24:58 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Hold it right there Micky Message:

What's wrong with muddle peddled hot bed, I mean puddle medalled hot, try again middle huddled put, fuck it...muddle headed pet hods, bollocks, fuddle duddle top deck shit, muddled heading pot spreads...deep breath...so hung... muddle headed pots? Eh..just tell me that man... thingy the whatsisname

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 21:41:02 (GMT) From: M's Manicurist Email: None To: AJW Subject: Too funny Message:

Wot a Larf! Good to see you're still in good form. Just watched M in Tokyo via satelite. Glad I can laugh about it - pretty pathetic though. Talked about consciousness & unconsiousness and how he's the one in control of whether we are consious or not. Wot a load of old bollocks. May be meditation does but he certainly has nothing to do with it. Come on Glen, let those cats out in the U.K. and tell us the truth about the Lord. Be a man like you brother Micheal. I know it's going to be hard to get a job at 50 something but i'ts all about conscientiousness I mean consiousness you know. And Micheal did it. I think you could too with all your degrees (though not much experience that you would want to mention.) You'll feel a lot better when you've spilled those beans, I mean cats, you know you will. Things a moving along nicely here wot wiv Micheal letting the cat out the bag so to speak.... I bet there are a lot more cats out there. Where are you pussy, pussy, pussy? Pussies unite, give us some more larfs, come on you know you want to. THE MAIN THING ALL YOU PREMIES OUT THERE NEED TO KNOW IS THAT M IS NO DIFFERENT FROM YOU AND ME. WE ALL SHIT, PEE, DIE AND SOME OF US HAVE HAD THE PLEASURE OF SMOKING DOPE. DON'T FALL FOR ALL THIS HIERARCHICAL CRAP THAT YOU ARE MADE TO SWALLOW THESE DAYS IN THIS HORRENDOUS ORGANISATION. THAT THE RICH WHO GIVE MONEY TO M ARE BETTER THAN THE POOR ONES THAT GROVEL AROUND M AND HIS INNER CIRCLE. You poor grovelers you are being taken for a ride and the inner circle in their silk pants and other expensive attire are laughing at you. Just like Charanand laughed at the girl who gave all her inheritance to m AND THEN DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY TO GET TO FLORIDA TO SEE THE LARD. He'll probably be playing golf on Pebble Beach or tennis in some fancy tennis club as we speak. M's Manicurist

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 21:12:20 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: AJW Subject: good one Anth the befuddled;)..nt Message:

dtyje

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:53:06 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Turner Subject: Thankyou for affirming the heirarchy Message:

You just point out more of the hypocrisy and heirarchy that I abhor. The elite who were thought to be 'free enough' to use drugs with him. Sheesh, look again!

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:51:11 (GMT) From: anon Email: None To: Turner Subject: Turner-You must be kidding Message:

It provided an environment where they were free enough from such distractions where they could focus on knowing themselves. Maybe for some but that was not my experience. I focussed far more on, and enjoyed practicing knowledge much more before I submitted to Maharaji's ashram prison camps. For that is what they were to me in the end. It just did not suit me, I felt utterly wasted of my potential there, and increasingly deeply frustrated and unhappy to my very soul. I cried my heart out there from frustration and confusion as to why Maharaji put me there. It was worse than bording school I swear. My boarding school in England was an absolute joyful period in my life compared to that time. In fact my life up to to and after leaving the ashram was really happy and my invovment in Maharaji's ashram has merely been the experience that warns me that life can be really nasty. There was no sensistivity from Maharaji towards us whom he had basicalled yelled at and made feel guilty if we didn't live there. I was there and I can tell you that depriving the likes of us westerners of our own lives like that, created a crazy environment of uptight and uncertain people for whom the only future hope lay in the possibility of them being picked for some plum service and then be around Maharaji. Mostly ashram premies were confused and incredibly uptight. He treated the ashram premies and instructors worse than other people too I thought. I rationalised that this was to make us surrender. It was a very, very bad thing to have made these ashrams and to send nasty pieces of work like David Smith out to terrify us into joining them. We were coerced into joining the ashram through intimidation and brainwashing and we had little choice in the matter by then. You might just as well say that imprisoning innocent people gives them the opportunity to avoid the dangers of society. The ashrams were in practice more about surrender and unhealthy doses of indoctrination. Not at all like the picture you would paint where ashrams were these ideal places where you could concentrate on knowledgewe without distraction. You must be joking! Whatsmore, I definately had a much better experience of knowledge when away from Maharaji and the organisation. In fact I am pissed off that Mharaji basically put me off something I really enjoyed and had faith in through demanding that I surrendered to him and his dreadful ashram set-up. I gave up a really happy life to live in his miserable cauldron of confrontation and insanity just because he appeared to me (incorrectly) to be trustworthy and to know what he was doing (since knowledge was a beautiful peaceful experience) and he offered me the opportunity to be a disciple of the Lord. That was an opportunity apparently not to miss for an idealist like myself. I reckoned I was in safe hands at first. I just ended up being used, abused and doing really boring jobs, being celibate, having no fun or intelligent stimulation and giving all the fruits of my considerable labour to him, ( I may be mistaken but I think that the ashram's gave all their money to Maharaji personally. Was this the case? I'm not sure.) abandoning my family as was often offensively suggested , and submitting to a diet of endless brainwashing from a sick society of bizarre, heavy unloving zealots. Individually we were basically all great people but the effect that everyone focussing on Mharaji had on all of us was dehumanising and innappropriate, turning us effectively into 'egoless' automatons with barren lives. Something I notice he is not aspiring to himself. I can see that Maharaji is currently backtracking like mad to avoid repeating his mistake. Knowledge now does not require all this sacrifice and confrontation. But why can't he stop for a moment to make amends to those who he put through all this crap? My take is that he is simply too arrogant and worried about the effect that that would have on his image as a trustworthy Master. To say that he is merely embarrassed about his mistakes is a whitewash. I notice that in Elan Vitals letter to Michael D. they say words to the effect that they will not stoop to lowly wrangles with their critics, as if this were a virtue. That is transparently the last resort of the feeble-minded! What they mean in truth is that they dare not. Remember how they tried to shut down those sites? What does that say about Maharaji's ideas about freedom of speech? And what does that say about their ability to address these things honestly?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:58:47 (GMT) From: Anon Email: None To: anon Subject: Turner-You must be kidding - amendment Message:

my last sentence got screwed up. It should have read: But why can't he stop for a moment to make amends to those who he put through all this crap? My take is that he is simply too arrogant and worried about the effect that that would have on his image as a trustworthy Master. Why else? I notice on Elan Vitals site they say words to the effect that they will not stoop to lowly wrangles with their critics as if this were a virtue. That is transparently the last resort of the feeble-minded! What they mean in truth is that they dare not. Remember how they tried to shut down those sites? What does that say about Maharaji's ideas about freedom of speech? or his ability to address the issue at all?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:56:44 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: anon Subject: Anon that was a great post :~) nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:19:16 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: drug culture Message:

>bullshit about protecting us from the drug culture Apparently you don't distinguish between people who are dependent on drugs on a daily basis and those who smoke a joint for pleasure. Maharaji certainly did influence people to focus on inner peace as a foundation for happiness whether they smoke a joint or not. Many people don't see that option in todays society. Curious that you say 'I like getting stoned' and then attempt to smear a reputation on the basis of smoking a joint. You can't have it both ways. Personally I think you should stick to the 'I like getting stoned' realm. Contrary to public opinion, marijuana is not inherently evil and does not lead to ruin except when abused. Marijuana should be legalized. X

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:48:45 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: X Subject: the Stoned Lord Message:

M explicitly posited Knowledge as a superior alternative to drugs. Meanwhile, he was getting stoned. Everybody close to M acknowledge his cannibus/alcohol use. So this is OK? Jesus F. Christ!

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:39:08 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Gregg Subject: posited Message:

>M explicitly posited Knowledge as a superior alternative to drugs. Not true. M explicitly presented Knowledge on its own merits. The problem seems to be peoples constant desire to contrast, compare and judge rather than experience.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:46:12 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: X Subject: Well that's simply wrong, X Message:

Don't you remember the Hamster's famous pitch along the lines of: You take LSD because it gets you high, but I can show you an internal LSD from which you never have to come down? That's not verbatim but it sure is what he said. I know because that was one of the big hooks I bit into when I took the bait. No, you're wrong there.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 09:02:12 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Jim Subject: Well that's simply wrong, X Message:

And also the one where he compared drugs to you know its like when you go to the airport ,I mean you drive there in your car but its like you don't take your car on the airoplane do you .

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:12:29 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Jim Subject: not simply so simple Message:

>You take LSD because it gets you high, but I can show you an internal LSD from which you never have to come down? Yes, your quote is accurate. Where do you see: Choose between LSD and K or else! True, K may give a more pure and deeper experience that you desire. Does that mean that an acid trip to experience a transient state is forbidden? You don't drink before arguing a case in court yet you enjoy a few before picking up the guitar at a performance. Is drinking good or bad. Possibly neither but the time must be right and some things don't mix well. >I know because that was one of the big hooks I bit into when I took the bait. Sure the line grabbed you because you got a sense from LSD that there is more. You still know that there is more and will never be fully satisfied by any debate that you may prevail at through clever ideas and word formulations. That is your fate! X

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:58:46 (GMT) From: the dude Email: None To: X Subject: acid or k, a good question Message:

hey man, like at a push I'd guess I'd go for ketamine over acid, but it's a close call whaddabout you man?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:28:04 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: the dude Subject: confusing mixtures Message:

>hey man, like at a push I'd guess I'd go for ketamine over acid, but it's a close call Thats where the confusion arises. Regarding LSD, ketamine and the K as substitutes for each other. Its best not to mix marijuana and acid in the same brownie mix. If you are reformed, then don't mix the stuff in your dreams.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:32:18 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: the dude Subject: ketamine Message:

have you used it? What is it like?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:05:37 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: gerry Subject: ketamine is used as an anesthetic for animals Message:

like my llamas when they were guilded!

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:58:37 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: gerry Subject: ketamine Message:

I heard Terrence McKenna speak once (one of the best speakers I've ever heard, btw) and tell about his experiences using ketamine. Basically, it sounded like ketamine was to acid like acid is to water. His ketamine experience sounded so intense it scared the hell out of me. McKenna died last year from brain cancer, and I wondered if ketamine use had anything to do with it. In an interview before he died, McKenna said he wondered about the same thing but that it was a useless speculation. He was a fascinating speaker and way out there, talking about event horizons etc. way before anyone else. I've tried ayahuasca and, whew, that's one experience I'll never forget. Makes acid look like a teething ring.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:38:46 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: gerry Subject: Isn't 'ketamine' a catfood brand? (nt) Message:

miaouw

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:47:06 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: AJW Subject: get serious, mister Message:

I wanted to know if it was the ground chicken feet or the emulsified beef by products I should try first...

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 19:17:38 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: gerry Subject: Do you eat it or smoke it? (nt) Message:

or...never mind

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 12:13:44 (GMT) From: Kspace Email: None To: the dude Subject: k takes you there Message:

Hey dude, here's the last paragraph of a report I read on k. Reports: A number of sources claim ketamine to be a boring drug. Some complain that it removes you so completely from your body that it is difficult to even work with. Others have found ketamine to be very potent and shapable, an experience that can be tailormade by dosage and setting. There is little question that there is no comparable experience on any other drugs. Most agree that it has a good to very good recovery with little negative effect on the following day and mild hangover. Setting is agreed to be rucial. Most agree that Ketamin not be used by inexperienced trippers unless they want a complete out-of-body experience that is sure to change their life.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 00:13:46 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Kspace Subject: learn about K from John Lilly,in his autobiography Message:

entitled 'The Scientist.' Although I think anybody who thinks drugs can be enlightening is barking up a dead tree.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 06:14:54 (GMT) From: Kspace Email: None To: Gregg Subject: the ketamine experience Message:

Hi Gregg, I don't know what you mean by enlightening. I can say that I followed m faithfully for over 20 years and did hours of meditation in which I always had good experiences. I lived a 'pure ashram life'. I took ketamine the first time a couple of years ago. I had not taken any tripping drug since 1972(pre-knowledge). I can honestly say, that the ketamine took me further than all the 20+ years of meditation. Like anything else it can be abused. It is something I use occassionally(every few months) and in chosen company. Contrary to many articles I have read, I have found that most things can be done on ketamine. Kspace

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 06:51:40 (GMT) From: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Kspace Subject: the ketamine experience Message:

The problem with that is it can trigger psychosis over which you won't have any control. You ought to really spend some time in a mental hospital, observing psychotic patients in their least-finest hours, before you fuck around with your brain chemistry like that. It's a really stupid gamble. The horrors that await you -- even just possibly -- just aren't worth it. ### I needed to say that somewhere in this thread; it isn't really specific to your remarks, but it fits here as well.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 12:28:33 (GMT) From: Kspace Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: the ketamine experience Message:

'The problem with that is it can trigger psychosis over which you won't have any control. You ought to really spend some time in a mental hospital, observing psychotic patients in their least-finest hours, before you fuck around with your brain chemistry like that.' I have spent time in mental hospitals(not as an inmate)and have seen horrendous things. In terms of addictedness, most addicts are in fact addicted to alcohol which is no longer considered a dangerous drug. Drugs like acid and ketamine have been given a bad pr due to a few bad cases. It's agreat pity. There is adifference between use and abuse. After breaking free from m and his belief system, I question everything I do in my life; in particular the information I am fed. So I only try to talk about what i have experienced/discovered for myself. And yes Ketamine can be abused, but certainly no more than alcohol that hoas now become socially acceptable. I am sure that both Ketamine, LSD and MDMA can be used medically to help people. (Actually ketamine already used to anaethtasise(sp?) injections. from Kspace 'It's a really stupid gamble. The horrors that await you -- even just possibly -- just aren't worth it.' No more than buying some food from a supermall and believing that it won't poison you or regular drinking of alcohol.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 01:09:30 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Gregg Subject: Um, I partied with Lilly on k -- well, HE was on k Message:

In the late eighties I went up to Lilly's place in Malibu once for his birthday party. There were a couple of hundred people there, prety new age, Whole Life Expo kind of crowd. What was the name of that black guy that played Judas in 'Jesus Christ Superstar'? [I know, I'll go check the Internet Movie Database] Oh yeah, Carl Anderson. He was there. (I just remember that he came to a couple of parties we had in West Hollywood when I lived with Daniel and Sally Cainer there. Don't know if Carl was a premie. I'm thinking that maybe he was. Pretty well everyone D&S knew in L.A. were). The house was this sprawling hippie-kind of ranch up in some beautiful arid canyon. Lilly was wearing a white jump suit and came out from watching tv. He was super scrawny, even given his age (which must have been 70+). He didn't look too healthy either, had open sores a couple of places. It was common knowledge, then, that he was a big ketamine freak. Indeed, that's what he'd been doing, shooting ketamine and watching tv. I knew about him partly from this new-age princess that I'd met at the Whole Life Expo, in fact. She'd invited me up there. I also knew about him from this woman that used to live in a trailer on his property and do errands and stuff. I think she was friends with Lilly's daughter. She and her friend, Mike, were complete dolphin freaks. Mike even looked like one, kind of same body type if you can imagine. They thougth that dolphins were alien boy scouts come to save us. They were planning to move to florida to hang out with their cetacean friends at some dolphin / human club med sort of place. So Lilly came out of his tv room, pretty high on something and the band stopped and this girl got up to sing a couple of sickly, fawning songs of adoration. Lilly was very cynical about the whole thing and actually stood to the side cracking jokes under his breath about it all. I remember that I liked him quite a bit, we joked for a while. Something about a cigarette ....

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 02:19:31 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: good story Jim (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 02:04:43 (GMT) From: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Jim Subject: Um, I partied with Lilly on k -- well, HE was on k Message:

Sometimes you're like way over the line Jim, but if that's the package you arrive in, I'll take my chances. :) I need that skeptical view; it's good for the soul (backspace) heart (backspace) sense of aesthetics (period). [This post is unrelated to the present thread, other than I enjoyed what you said, in it.] I hope you continue!

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:26:33 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Kspace Subject: more on Ketamine Message:

It produces a dissociative anesthesia which blocks perception of pain. A web search will produce multiple links. Apparently coming off of it produces hallucinations. Used to be used for humans, but some people freaked out or did not like hallucinations, so it was banned. The part of the brain that experiences consciousness gets blocked and another part of the brain becomes active in absence of sensory input, such as in the dream state or from sensory deprivation experiments.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 21:01:44 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Carol Subject: thanks, Carol Message:

I have read extensively about this drug (on the 'net and one book) and am aware of its 'legitimate' uses. I was wondering if anyone here had any personal experiences thaey could talk about.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:37:45 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: X Subject: Now don't YOU be simple Message:

Where do you see: Choose between LSD and K or else! How about the ashram code for starters?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:49:49 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Jim Subject: never so simple Message:

>How about the ashram code for starters? Yes, a starter, but not the end. You don't drink during your trial presentations? Right! Its a matter of timing. You're not in the ashram any more. Here is a new rule: Have a hit, but not while reading this forum! X

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 06:57:34 (GMT) From: CHR Email: None To: X Subject: never so simple Message:

Sorry X, but Maharaji once stated that 'People who smoke dope ARE dopes'. I was in front of him with a small group of ashram premies at the time - It was from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:07:37 (GMT) From: CHR Email: None To: CHR Subject: Above should read 'premies' not 'people'.nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:33:24 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: you tell em Michael Message:

Good response to the EV letter. One thing I notice on this forum; the premie element is always harping on how we should take responsibility for this and that and our anger is misplaced, etc etc and YET they tend to shy away from the posts that discuss the revisionism that M and his crew have gone through. You described it quite well.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:00:36 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Selene Subject: Hear hear/here here/read all about it?Thanx MD nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:30:37 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com To: Michael Dettmers Subject: An e-mail from Elan Vital Message:

Thanks Michael. Really.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:28:13 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: And the Hamster just has to be loving this! Message:

Now come on, someone tell me that Maharaji doesn't know that Dettmers is posting this shit. PETER FRAMPTON???!! Ha ha ahahahahahhahahahahahahaa Anyone who ever had any doubts about Maharaji's divinity, I'd like to hear you explain this one away. And no, don't give me 'it was the times'. That only goes so far. PETER FRAMPTON???!!

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:17:29 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@theusual;';lsks To: Jim Subject: Wah, wah, wah, wa waah... Message:

So what's wrong with Pete Framptom? - Apart from being a beautifully-permed, shiny-suited average singer and lousy songwriter with hosepipe attachment to his gob..? Eh, eh? Ok - yeah - everything. Check out the ambient house and drum'n'bass (and especially) breakbeat stuff. See Ham-the-man for more details.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:35:16 (GMT) From: Blackberry Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Never trust a man.. Message:

..who didn't like 'Humble Pie'

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:55:02 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Blackberry Subject: Never trust a man.. Message:

Hi Blackberry, Were you addressing your remark to me, or did Frampton say at some point that he didn't like Humble Pie? I liked Steve Marriot (RIP) that's for sure.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:42:00 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Nigel Subject: ding Message:

>So what's wrong with Pete Framptom? Frampton had a strong passion since he was very young to be a guitar player and he achieved his goal. Bugs you huh?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:13:11 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: X Subject: Nah - doesn't bug me... Message:

So what did Frampers ever play on his geetar that anyone should get excited about? I'm willing to be persuaded, of course. Do I know you?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:44:25 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Nah - doesn't bug me... (OT) Message:

>So what did Frampers ever play on his geetar that anyone should get excited about? His live album was obviously a huge success and popular with many. He stills sells the record at a good rate. The guy gets to play guitar and sing and it pays all his bills. I consider that a success. But no need to convince you to like Frampton because you have your own preferences, as it should be. I don't know you Nigel, just your Internet persona. Here is a blurb from the frampton web site. The guy still seems to be pretty involved with the guitar: In 1997, he played on Bill Wyman's CD, 'The Rhythm Kings: Struttin' Our Stuff'. Later that year, he and Wyman played together in Europe to promote the CD along with Gary Brooker, Albert Lee, Georgie Fame and Beverly Skeets. Plus there are many other recent projects - including concerts to benefit the aid work in Bosnia and other charity work, two tours with Ringo Starr's All-Starr Band in 1997 and 1998, an appearance on VH-1's Hard Rock Live series, his 1998 tour with Lynyrd Skynyrd, an appearance on the Simpsons as himself, two songs he recorded for an upcoming Walt Disney Records project, Tigger Mania, writing music for and acting in the new Cameron Crowe movie 'Almost Famous', a collaboration with eMedia Guitar Method to support and endorse their guitar tuition program, producing singer/songwriter Eric Stuart, and a performance with the British Rock Symphony in New York City, with an upcoming tour of Australia planned for February 2000!

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:07:39 (GMT) From: the dude Email: None To: X Subject: Ha, ha, ha, you wouldn't be a premie by any chance Message:

would ya, ha ha ha, jus too beautiful, heh ya heard, there's this new music out called dixeyland, man you're gonna love it, love it, love it, love it!!!!

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:21:15 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Nigel Subject: ok ok!! i said my *kids* liked it Message:

When they were 13 and 14. I suspect it's because they were going through their guitar lesson phase. Or some phase I don't want to know about at this point.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:56:23 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool,ac,uk To: Selene Subject: My kids like pokemon - it's still crap.. Message:

Hi Selene! My older two are precisely 13 and 14 and neither of the bastards can even play an e-minor chord (easy as doing a V-sign, fer fuck's sake). Got any more on those teenage phases you said you'd rather not know about? Stuff I should know about..?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:00:51 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Nigel Subject: hey you :) we are OT you know Message:

Advice giving is not my forte on forum. Others seem to greatly enjoy it but all I can say about those 13 and 14 year olds is hang on you are in for a ride and the way you ride it out will impact how you relate to each other when it's all over. They grow up. That's my best advice. Pay atention and stick up for them. At least you don't live in the cursed USA huh?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:46:56 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Selene Subject: Hey - why would I curse the USA? Message:

..when there's so many lovely people there? No, if you mean the stuff I typed above to Steve I was just trying to say: don't hold the forum responsible if M isn't on Devil's Island yet, sort of thing.. Hell - my sister's American, even if I'm not. But ta for kiddie advice, Selene. I suspect 'hang on in' is probably the best any of us can do.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:50:53 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Nigel Subject: I didn'think YOU were dissing Message:

doncha love this medium? gotta go play wit a 2 year old now.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:58:56 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Selene Subject: No, I know you didn't...:) Message:

A two-year old, heh? Tantrums and 'me want', is all I remember of that. And Jungle Book in the early hours of the morn when you'd prefer to sleep and Thomas the Tank Engine...

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:22:00 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Hi Nigel (ot) Message:

Yes, we just finished watching the Jungle Book and reading Thomas around here! Precious magical times, with a two year old discovering the world!

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:06:44 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Selene Subject: (OT) My kids know this as a safe place to live Message:

But it may not always be. I hope Steve reads my post on voting above, and cools his jets. We have a democracy here but it depends on every one of us to use their voices. If we don't, I worry what it (US) could become and might want to move to Canada! I read 'Handmaid's daaughter' (is that right name?) too!

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:54:53 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jim Subject: hey even my kids liked that recording Message:

But it IS hilarious picturing the party. 'being passed a toke by the Lord' eeessshhh I get paranoid enough if I try to smoke it under fairly OK conditions. I can't even imagine. I would have gone running out the door and down the hill :)

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:00:15 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Selene Subject: OK, OK, Best album of all time! Message:

Yeah, I know, it wasn't THAT bad -- for the time. Gotta go, the girlfriend thinks it's a better idea to get out in the sunshine than sit here arguing about Peter Fampton. Can you imagine?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:51:17 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: Jim Subject: And the Hamster just has to be loving this! Message:

That was a good album. Nobody ever told me Maharaji was getting stoned with premies. You'd think a story like that would circulate.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:01:32 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: a0aji Subject: Frampton.... Message:

I was in the Hartford premie band and we actually DID a couple of Frampton songs, you know, during the entertainment segment of nightly satsang?? I remember practicing those tunes...our guitarist was better than him. Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:06:17 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Michael Bolton Message:

Hi Cynthia: Wasn't Michael Bolton (Bolotin) from Hartford? Didn't he used to sing for you guys? That must've been a trip. Thanks M

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:19:02 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Michael Bolton was from the New Haven community... Message:

and I still say our guitarist was better than both Frampton and Bolotin (bolton was his pop star name). I'd rather not mention our guitarist's name, he was a good friend of mine, and the last time I heard, was in California, still following m. Best, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:33:28 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Michael Bolton was from the New Haven community... Message:

I don't doubt your guitarist is better than Frampton and Bolton. Given Bolton's rise to fame for his screechy operatics, it's obvious quality isn't always rewarded in the music biz. I hope your friend has made a career for himself as a studio musician or something in addition to following M.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:36:18 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Michael Bolton stories Message:

I heard Michael play in living rooms a few times. Honest, he sang just as loud then. He did love ballads to the lord extolling the virtues of the knowledge. Michael was criticised by a premie in about 83 in Miami at a guru puja because his wife was dressed a bit 'slutty' and the premie thought she was stoned as well. Do you remember that event? I think I have the tape. He yelled the whole time and I knew that someone went against regulations and brought some new people. They didnt survive the blast from the lord as you might expect. arti and crown danceing capped off the night. Michael had a -bringing it all back home- concert in Connecticut after his big breakthrough and awards and tours nationally. He starts off by talking about the different people in the audience and how they had fit into his life. He gets to the end and he looks out at the audience and says 'anyone I forgetting?' and this very LOUD premie sister who had been given close seats by Bolotins newly divorced but still a premie wife, anyway, MOLLY, who was sitting in the close seat stood up and SHOUTED 'PREMIES!!' Michael staggered back like an animal taking a bullet. He turned around to a speaker and started up the next song and didnt say another word all night! Except 'thank you' She told me the story, I was laughing like hell.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:46:02 (GMT) From: And On Anand Ji Email: None To: bill Subject: Michael Bolton stories Message:

Wow. You know, Jonn showed up here yesterday.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:12:58 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: And On Anand Ji/Bill Subject: Michael Bolton stories Message:

It was 1975 or 6. We were gathered in the New Haven satsang hall and Michael was doing a number. (He always broke his guitar strings from banging on them so much). We had already watched the 'Marriage film' for the 2nd or 3rd time. After satsang, (Steve, Carol and I were still aspirants), but, Michael needed help getting a piano moved and, of course, Steve volunteered while Carol and I waited (trying not to be pissed off--not the aspirant way to be)!! It's amazing how much can be forgotten, and then when remembered seems so hilarious! We were very good little aspirants! Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:44:22 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: a0aji Subject: the story did circulate in the late 80's Message:

Along with the drinking stories. At the time I rationalized it and ignored it. One of my fav rationalizations a premie gave me at the time (which I admit I bought) was that M was so close to the source and channeling so much energy he had to chemically come down to deal with this world.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:23:44 (GMT) From: Anon Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: An e-mail from Elan Vital Message:

Reading all this just makes me wonder even more how in God's name Maharaji could have justified condemning poor souls like me to the boring celibate, dreary, insane, and highly innappropriate lifestyle that he did by making us live in his dull ashrams whilst he was living it up so royally. The fact that he does not account, apologise or get real makes me even more suspicious that he really was never in a position to be making fundamental decisions about our lives and that he used his powerful position with disregard for the very personal needs of people like me who trusted him implicitly. Thank God I had an overpowering self-preserving instinct to stop giving him money and to start feathering my own nest when I left. I think that Maharaji is clearly very concerned with public image (your comparison with Clinton is quite appropriate) even if it involves some disonesty, otherwise he would not tolerate Elan Vitals flimsy attempts at covering up for him. Clearly a reckoning for him is well overdue on a number of issues. The sooner that the facade is broken and the truth outs, the better for all of us. His partying habits are of no surprise now, but if I had suspected at the time that my serious dedication to him was the whim of a hypocrite who was capable of mistakes, I would have immediately reclaimed my life and would certainly be better off today as a result. Premies take note and do the right thing. I stongly would urge Maharaji to seriously consider publically apologising and even offering financial re-imbursement to us for wasting our time. He must surely prepare to face some home truths with all the integrity he can muster. Also how long can he hope that Elan Vital and premies can effectively carry the can for mistakes that are by all accounts his responsibility. I for one would like some straight answers.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:36:02 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Anon Subject: Priorities Message:

Anon: I think that Maharaji is clearly very concerned with public image (your comparison with Clinton is quite appropriate) even if it involves some disonesty, otherwise he would not tolerate Elan Vitals flimsy attempts at covering up for him. Clearly a reckoning for him is well overdue on a number of issues. The sooner that the facade is broken and the truth outs, the better for all of us. Exactly, and it's about time he started to be equally concerned about his soul, or whatever he happens to have that passes for a soul. --Scott

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:17:11 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Kudos for your courage, Michael Message:

Dear Michael, Thank you for sharing that quite patronizing response from EV. Isn't it amazing how easily m and EV can lie, cover-up, mix up the truth? Blaming the victim is quite common in cases like Susan's. I, too, am very angry that Jagdeo will simply live his life out, in India, without facing any consequences for his crimes. That you indeed got a response from EV is far more than any of us have ever accomplished. So, perhaps they are nervous about you speaking out. How unbelievable that in that post, in essence, EV 'gave you permission' to participate in this forum as if you need THEIR consent. The nerve! I sincerely appreciate your courage. Thanks again, great response to EV! Best, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:02:44 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Is this how you talk to an 'embezzler'? Message:

Just in case any of the premies who've taken stabs at you over this past week missed it, Ms. Yingling's email certainly doesn't sound like it was written to a thief. And, by the way, Michael, good response. You have completely succumbed to our programming and are almost ready for Stage II.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:10:58 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: What is Stage II? nt Message:

empty

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:47:10 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Carol Subject: You write to Ex-Premie.org for your... Message:

... official Ex-premie.org Hate Kit. Only $19.95. You get: A little chubby doll with 278 suits. A tiny vial of pretend poison and a tiny pretend bacon sandwich. A plastic challenger jet and a box of matches. A toy Mercedese 600 and a tiny aerosol can. Anth the tiny bit warped IMPORTANT. This post is a joke. Don't try to set fire to any of your plastic aeroplanes at home. Neither should you feed poison to dolls. You may get some on your finger, then a little puppy may lovingly lick it and die.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:02:34 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: AJW Subject: LOL Most excellent and hilarious (nt) Message:

bbbb

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:56:26 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: thanks Michael. Message:

I am appalled that there is some innuendo that if I wanted them to do more I should have said so. Do I have to become their conscience? It is perfectly obvious, as you say, what the right thing to do is, and I should not be blamed because they cannot figure it out. You have guts, major guts, and I am thrilled you are speaking out.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:11:24 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Michael Subject: so the PAMs got the best Prasad too huh? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:41:03 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Respect (nt) Message:

kudos too

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:21:33 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Everyone Subject: WARNING: Post contains Spiritual Material Message:

It is evident that some of us are hungry for more than food and intellectual understanding. As human, we also hunger for spiritual food. There is no two ways around it. Anyone denying this or opposing it will only go into flames. Marxism tried it and failed. To many of us that is what attracted us to marraji, the need for spiritual knowledge. It is also apperant that some who have exited the so-called “cult” are still looking while others continue to have spiritual experience. As far as this forum is concerned it looks that there are two camps, the ones opposing anything and everything spiritual, the jump you over no matter what is being said. On the other camp, there are those that want to talk about spirituality but can not because they are afraid of being ridiculed. I find it humanly uncivilized to do so. Exes (mostly) that wants to talk about their spiritual experience need to bring it out. It is a natural thing to do and part of the coming out of the nest process. But then I may as well go and flog a dead horse, because those that think intellectualism is the way to go are already sharpening their spears. The conclusion is that it is not going to happen. IMO of the f5 forum is that it is no more than a spring board to use to get out of the mind set movement, but if you (anyone) want to move forward then, do not expect it from here. This forum has a very specific and limited task, it’s aim “has become” first and formats to expose the guru . If you are looking for support in any context outside that then forget it, really, it is not gonna happen here, because even if someone wants to post a reply back, that someone will think twice before doing so if ever that someone go ahead with it in the first place. I really think that the intro on the front has to be changed to reflect on this, I also would like to see a place where posters can say and get some sort of support to the immediate issues that concern leaving the cult. All said but not done, I must be out of my head to say what I have just said.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:19:12 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Salam Subject: It's not so bad here. Message:

I've posted tons of spiritual shit here; I've even admitted to having a guru, and I've rarely been flamed. Many who post here like talking about meditation etc., and it may not be a bad thing to have some spiritual chit-chat now and then so lurking premies can see that leaving M doesn't mean leaving the world of the Spirit; in fact, it only gets better. Sure, some scientific materialists here think we're still being flim-flammed, but, for the most part they're pretty polite about it.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:32:46 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Salam Subject: Maybe you would like this place... Message:

Recent Exes Forum I don't know much about it as it is an closed door forum, but I'm pretty sure you'd be very welcome there. sorry, I don't know how to get there.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:48:49 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: Yes, for sure, RE's got your reservation, sir Message:

Maybe you read Steppenwolf, Salam? The 'Magic Theatre' in the end? Well there's a special place that already exists and they're waiting for you even as we speak. The name of the special place, where ridicule (like this) is never, ever allowed, where people can express their belief in the dangdest things and no one will ever say 'boo', the name of the place, the very, special place is ..... THE RECENT EXES FORUM!! I'm the moderator there. Email me and I'll let you know if you qualify. (Naw, just kidding. I've got nothing to do with the place. Check with Katie.)

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:51:19 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Forgot to say Message:

That I made a bet, that you can not stay out of this thread, I won, HA.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:55:05 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Salam Subject: And Message:

I am not talking about myself, I do not give a flying pussy about it. I walked away 20 years away. I am talking about the new people, they need the support.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:11:26 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Everyone Subject: U.N. condems Isreal for use of force.(ot) Message:

no kidding.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:43:49 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Salam Subject: But here's the real question, Salam Message:

Was it worth it for the Palestinians to pay the price they paid for that wonderful p.r.?

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:07:05 (GMT) From: TD Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'll answer it! Message:

Was it worth it for the Palestinians to pay the price they paid for that wonderful p.r.? Oh so they purposely get shot Jim, so that they get good press and sympathy around the world? And sympathy for what? Their cause, which is to have their own land back from an occupying and encroaching force. Hmmm. Aren't they the selfish irrational fanatical bastards, and aren't the world's press a bunch of gullible suckers? Or are you trying to say something like the high Palestinian bodycount is a p.r stunt? Isn't that what some anti-Semites said about the 6 million Jews killed during the Holocaust - that it was a p.r. stunt? Be careful with that one Jimbo!

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:48:13 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: But here's the real answer Message:

Is it worth it for the Palestinians to live as a second citizen?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:11:50 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Salam Subject: You won't answer mine but pose your own? Message:

Forget it.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:14:54 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Everyone Subject: Some Truths Never Die Message:

Grace follows effort. I like that one. Steve

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:44:25 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: How are you doing? (This is a long post) Message:

Dear Steve, I have been wanting to strike up a conversation with you, but I haven't until now. The reason for my hesitation is the rage I have sensed in your posts, which I was afraid might trigger me. Believe me, I know what you are experiencing in the rage department. I've been there. What the hell, my real name is Cynthia Gracie and I live in Vermont. Prior to my marriage my name was Folcik and I lived in Connecticut--born and raised there. I was involved with the Hartford premie community and lived in the sister's ashram there, until Deca. I am not afraid of m, his lawyers and EV, but I don't have the power ($$$) to control what he or they do. After I read the posts below from last night (I go to bed pretty early), I feel a responsibility to talk to you. Don't you dare attempt suicide! You deserve more than ending it all--you can get through this. That rage you feel inside is very normal, but what I have learned is that once the rage gets so global, so out of control, it is ME that is feeling it--me who is the one hurting. I have puked my rage out and hurt others. However, from what I have read of your posts, I don't sense you are angry at us, but at maharaji and the premies who hurt you back when you followed m, or maybe some other personal stuff. Am I getting this right? Let me know. Also, I have found that when I am inside of a hurricane of rage I become irrational. I 'globalize' it. I 'hate' everyone. I become out of control of myself. That hurts, too. For instance, when you said we in America are barbaric not to force m out of the country I thought, geeze, that sounds like I have been in the past; my rage inflating and distorting my thinking to believe I can actual control all of the injustices in the country, world and, yes, what Maharaji did and continues to do. You wouldn't believe the things I have said to my state, and federal legislators. I, too, have written the white house about political issues that have enraged me. 'Living well is the best revenge' is something I've read here and elsewhere. There was a time I couldn't fathom what that meant because I was in so much pain and rage about everything that has been done to me in my home life, and of course, the cult. Yet I have come to understand, (and it takes a lot of practice, and stumbling) that I had to learn how to calm myself down, think clearly, and try to sort out the negative thought systems in my head. None of what I am saying is in critism of you. I am simply trying to tell you that I believe I can empathize with your current crisis. Another thing I have discovered is that beneath the rage is a profound sadness, a deep grief for losses that are personal to each of us. What I have learned to do is to cry. Crying, weeping, wailing, whatever...opens the vent (just like a volano starting to erupt) and the rage is not suppressed, rather a great relief is felt. That's my experience. I do this when I feel I am overwhelmed, 'losing myself in anger' and know deep inside of my heart I am grieving. I use music to make myself cry. There are certain pieces of music that set off that vent and out comes the grief through tears. It's an exhausting process, I've spent days in bed after these episodes. When I couldn't cry because I was terrified I would never stop, a therapist told me to lie down, and visualize myself as a sort of tube with all that grief, tears, anger flowing out of me. You know what? It works. Two years ago my mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. Because I never really 'had her' as a mother growing up (very bad father), this at first made me so angry--she's in good physical health, had a heinous life with her husband (my father) and now at age 77 her mind is going. I am losing her again. I don't see her often but talk to her on the phone every day--she's still well enough to live in an elderly housing complex. She's pretty much lost her short term memory, but I, of my four other sisters, have a unique relationship with her. I get her to talk about her past, which for Alzheimers victims seems to be 'still there.' So I get to hear about how wonderful her childhood was like, etc., what the WWII years were like and have learned a lot from her about my own past. I brought this up because it is possible, Steve, to turn things around in our lives. I don't believe that 'forgiveness and moving on' is a correct thing for anyone to say to you (or anyone) for that matter, because forgiveness can't be forced. It's something that, if it does come, will happen naturally. I still have not forgiven M, don't know if I ever will. I still haven't and probably won't forgive my father the heinous childhood he gave me and probably won't. I have however, forgiven myself for blaming myself for my father's abuses, as well as for entering a cult during a very, very vulnerable time in my life in my early 20s. When children are abused, the first thing that professionals suggest is to tell them 'it's not your fault.' Because it isn't. Now I am an adult, and I have to take responsibility for my actions and words. This too, takes time. It's so unfair! The possibility is there Steve for healing, please don't hurt yourself. I hope this isn't too 'advicey, or preachy.' I'm only trying to tell you I understand where you're coming from and for the record, do not like it when people here call you the big spammer. There have been plenty of times in the past when I have made posts and no one responds, but that's the way things are sometimes. Please take care of yourself. The only advice I can give you is this: I think you're triggering yourself by going over to the premie and Maharaji sites. I'm no professional, but I've had so much work to do, vis a vis therapy, I just wanted to express my concern for your well being and safety. I sincerely welcome a conversation with you here. Be well, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:24:27 (GMT) From: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Cynthia Subject: How are you doing? (This is a long post) Message:

I know you. Hi Cindy! -Chris H, Hartford

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:21:11 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: And On Anand Ji Subject: Please refresh my memory.... Message:

Dear Chris H., I love your name, too. My brain is a bit foggy can you give some hints about you. If you remember me, I'm sure I remember you..just can't seem to picture you at the moment.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:18:13 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: An On Anand Ji Subject: If you'd like... Message:

you can email me a cjg@wcvt.com I'd love to hear from you! Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 02:15:34 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Cynthia Subject: If you'd like... Message:

Thanks for clearing that up, Cynthia. I enjoyed catching up on old times with you! I think you remember me, based on what you said. Chris http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8070/

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:44:56 (GMT) From: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Cynthia Subject: If you'd like... Message:

I'd rather not write directly to a media address, if you catch my drift.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:23:29 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Oh Steve.....are you there? I'm waiting....(nt) Message:

n

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:44:10 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Everyone Subject: Some More Personal Stuff Message:

I've got two twelve-step meetings to go to this morning. Adult Children Of Alcoholics (called Adult Children Anonymous in most places, I believe) and Emotions Anonymous. The meetings overlap so I might drop in on both. I try to make one or two meetings a week. I hope that nobody considers personal stuff to be off-topic because it is essential if healing is to be accomplished. I think we have tremendous potential as a group but it seems to me that a lot of healing and trust is needed. Let's heal each other and defeat the bad guys. Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:16:07 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Steven Quint Subject: Some More Personal Stuff Message:

when you get your 4th and 8th step done at EA, I'll be here to accept your amends for the rip job you did on my outstretched hand--and heart-- last night. I do program too. While you're at it, make sure your 8th step list covers the chain of respondents below your name in last night's thread. 'k????? yeah. you hurt me

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:05:18 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: janet Subject: Some More Personal Stuff Message:

I've been hurt more often than I could possibly record on an older P.C. Pain is part of life. No two ways about it. Learn from your pain. Love, Steve

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