Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 16:44:22 (GMT)
From: Oct 17, 2000 To: Oct 23, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Anon -:- Ashram premies are in better position to judge M -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 11:14:39 (GMT)
__ Joe [Premie] -:- Smart [edited by forum administrator] -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:57:22 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- This is another 'Joe' -- to FA -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:19:56 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- What????? (nt) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:15:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ joe [the Premie] -:- [nuisance removed by FA] -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:25:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Fuck off you coward.... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:22:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Got it!...Thanks (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:05:21 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- great great great post!!!!!! (nt) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:08:27 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- great great great post!!!!!! (nt) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 17:03:41 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Yes, exactly! Dog, shp, Eric, he got yo numba! -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:50:56 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Ashram premies, revisionists and K Lite kids -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 12:05:36 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Thanks- my feelings entirely but better expressed -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 11:28:44 (GMT)
__ __ Loaf -:- Its too late to put NT in the post ! Thats funny ! -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 12:07:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Blue Max -:- A Step off the Edge of the World -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 12:53:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ And On Anand Ji -:- A Step off the Edge of the World -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 02:22:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- You forgot to mention ... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:06:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- You forgot to mention ... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:45:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Something strange it seems to me ... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:02:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- agree with JohnT -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:29:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- A Step off the Edge of the World -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:19:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- A Step off the Edge of the World -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:24:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- A Step off the Edge of the World -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:10:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Wow, that's like Jonathan Livingstone Seagull! -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:36:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- Wow, that's like Jonathan Livingstone Seagull! -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:46:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I lived in Hawaii, it explained nothing -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:11:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- This explains things a bit..... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:29:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- The Edge of the World -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:21:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Anon -:- A Step off the Edge of the World -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 13:22:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- A Step off the Edge of the World -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:37:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Anon -:- A Step off the Edge of the World -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:18:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- A Step off the Edge of the World -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:17:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Stepping Out -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:53:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ anon -:- Stepping Out -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:17:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, you guys are just a couple of semi's -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:12:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Semi-Detached??? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:55:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Whoops!! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:07:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- Yeah, you guys are just a couple of semi's -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:37:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Blue, can you drop the shit and be honest here? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:26:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Honesty -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:08:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Read this, Eric -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 19:00:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- I read it Jim -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:07:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You can do better than that, Eric -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:20:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- It's OK Jim -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:32:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Don't call me 'friend', bud -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:48:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- Call me 'friend', bud -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 04:30:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's not much of an answer, kemo sabe -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 04:38:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- That's not much of an answer, kemo sabe -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:01:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Would you please open up a bit more? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:24:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- Just caught your last post -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:46:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:48:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- correction -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:50:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- Let's talk again sometime -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:29:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sure, but let me leave you with this -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:46:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- Stepping Out -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:36:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bill -:- Wild blue yonder -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:50:14 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Don't Hold Me Back II -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:20:05 (GMT)
__ Hey Steve -:- Don't Hold Me Back II -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:46:28 (GMT)
__ __ Hey Steve.... -:- Look at the post above... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:21:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Look at the post above... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:27:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- apologize -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:24:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- apologize -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:14:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet(yes, of venice) -:- i dont play games unles you do -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:47:41 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- Don't Hold Me Back II -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:39:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- and the net is as safe as a playpen.. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:38:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, janet, I couldn't have said it better (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:15:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- and the net is as safe as a playpen.. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:16:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- and the net is as safe as a playpen.. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:23:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- and the net is as safe as a playpen.. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:10:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- and i suppose I'm supposed to be grateful... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:18:23 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Don't Hold Me Back II -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:43:51 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- Don't Hold Me Back II -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 10:04:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- What are you talking about? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 10:36:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- What are you talking about? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 11:07:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Steven, I still can't figure out what you want! -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 12:24:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Steven, I still can't figure out what you want! -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 13:30:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Steven, I still can't figure out what you want! -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 13:35:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- reprise:and netprivacy is individual choice -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:42:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven -:- Steven, I still can't figure out what you want! -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:18:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- oh-aliases are ok now! but they werent b4! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:48:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Steven, I still can't figure out what you want! -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:02:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Scott, war criminals are war criminals, and -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:34:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good one, Steve -- 'The Perfect MISER' ha ha (nt) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:54:20 (GMT)

admirer -:- janice is as good as ever -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:05:07 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Do it yourself! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:07:18 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Admirer-Janice Wilson -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 06:11:37 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Don't Hold Me Back -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 04:39:30 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Don't Hold Me Back -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:00:54 (GMT)
__ __ X -:- Do -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:17:04 (GMT)
__ Steven Quint -:- Don't Hold Me Back -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 04:42:53 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- Don't Hold Me Back -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 04:45:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Don't Hold Me Back -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 04:58:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Don't Hold Me Back -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:24:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Steven - your concerns, I think -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:39:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ X -:- BS -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:02:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- That's some heavy shit -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 06:33:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ one who cares -:- Don't Hold Me Back -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:58:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- he's not joking, and dont hold him back-- -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:23:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:32:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:44:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- hey--! this IS my real name. and what did u want? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:04:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Well said, Janet (Geesh, I agree with you alot!) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:14:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- i'm going to astronet after here-chatroom??? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:21:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- I'll see if I can follow directions! m-t -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:27:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- e-mail me if you have problems connecting -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:54:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:03:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- not now eric.too soon. no stuffing it. -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:15:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Great post, Janet, I'll say it again ... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:52:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Everything in it's own time -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:08:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Forgiveness -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:29:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Excuse me? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:48:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Steve's behavior is completely inappropriate here -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 22:02:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- My name is Tonette Beckwith -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:58:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:55:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:52:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:01:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:04:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:09:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:15:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- start with the man in the mirror -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 13:04:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- start with the man in the mirror -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 13:22:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ steve of vancouver -:- start with the man in the mirror -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:59:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- start with the man in the mirror -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:43:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Of Montreal And BC -:- start with the man in the mirror -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:18:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Of Nirvana -:- start with the man in the mirror -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:21:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven The Compassionate -:- start with the man in the mirror -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:54:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- start with the man in the mirror -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:07:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- start with the man in the mirror -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:22:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- start with the man in the mirror -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:26:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ X -:- Very wells -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:22:30 (GMT)

bull-shp detector -:- hey shp,why not go back to your original day job? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 01:45:07 (GMT)
__ shp -:- Hey bsd, why are you hiding who you are? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:27:53 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- Where's bsd and who let the dogs out? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:30:15 (GMT)
__ __ miami vice -:- I,too,got ripped by shp -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:04:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Miami lice -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:11:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ miami vice -:- shp-it's not nice to call vice lice.Vice please!! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:55:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- shp-it's not nice to call vice lice.Vice please!! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:05:36 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Don't worry, shp, we know who you are -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:59:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Gee, I wonder what you are referring to.....? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:19:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That is a disgusting answer, shp -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:33:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Some of my best friends are lawyers. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:53:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ shp -:- There's a little good in the worst of us... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:47:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's SOOOO pathetic, shp! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:15:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- We both heard it from Maharaji. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:01:12 (GMT)
__ Hey, detector..... -:- SHP is out of his mind..... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 03:14:33 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Sending A Greeting Card To The King Of Aliens -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:56:40 (GMT)

janet of venice -:- server is f'g up my html -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:28:53 (GMT)

Coach -:- Willow -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:46:31 (GMT)
__ Anon -:- Willow -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 11:34:04 (GMT)
__ Philip Huku -:- Willow -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:41:44 (GMT)
__ __ Coach -:- Willow -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:03:26 (GMT)
__ Eric -:- What a Heart -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:25:27 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- What a Heart -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:18:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Eric -:- What a Heart -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:04:44 (GMT)

janet of venice -:- TRY THESE! NOT TO BE PASSED UP! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:42:00 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- Working link -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:00:10 (GMT)

Cynthia -:- Dirt, Boats, Airplanes, Watches, Cars....... -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:13:32 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- Dirt, Boats, Airplanes, Watches, Cars....... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 11:13:25 (GMT)
__ __ jondon -:- Will be in Newport today.... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 14:42:19 (GMT)
__ Carol -:- Dirt, Boats, Airplanes, Watches, Cars....... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:51:59 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- That was great -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:28:08 (GMT)
__ Buzz -:- Dirt, Boats, Airplanes, Watches, Cars....... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:04:35 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You should write premie erotica, Cynthia (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:30:12 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- You're right.... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:36:38 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- Did you get my message re: -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:29:41 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Gawd, it was like really being there with Him -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:51:13 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- I kind of scared myself (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:34:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Very good, Cynthia -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:44:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- It was supposed to be parady, but that 'ole..... -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:58:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- It was supposed to be parady, but that 'ole..... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:56:25 (GMT)

Yo! Pick-up the phone. -:- Joan Apter -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:51:17 (GMT)
__ janet of venice -:- Joan Apter -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:59:12 (GMT)
__ __ Carol -:- Joan Apter -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:13:53 (GMT)

Scott T. -:- Another OT HPV post -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:47:49 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Yeah, I'll take some -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:34:31 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 11:14:39 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Ashram premies are in better position to judge M
Message:
Eric wrote:
I have never actually heard Shri Hans speak or read anything of his, so I cannot comment - Shri Hans was never anyone I related to, knew or listened to. I was a child when he was around and had never heard of him.
I have never actually heard M advocate any particular lifestyle. I don't ever remember hearing him talking about shunning sex and relationships, but then I was never invited to the ashram meetings, not being an ashram resident. As I have stated before, the ashram lifestyle was not for me so I shunned that.
I have heard M warning of the illusory nature of sex, sexual love and the problems that can arise from relationships and that is another matter.
What a drag that you should feel resentful over decisions you made so long ago - 20 years or more. Another reason why it is so important to know oneself and be true to oneself.
And as far as M and Shri Hans lifestyle are concerned. I don't think they ever were ashram residents were they? They both married and had children - I believe this is called householder.

Eric,
I am bringing this conversation up here because I am tired of making the effort to write stuff that gets buried and ignored.

What I have written below may seem a bit over the top. Please don't take this personally but consider the things I say. I am sure you are a really nice guy and I really don't mean to make judgements about you personally. What I say may make me sound consumed with bitterness and anger. Strangely this is not actually the case. Although I consider myself a serious person I am not tight-arsed (anymore Take note Mark Appleman!) and I am hell-bent on having a good time in my life. If anything, letting off steam about my experiences with Maharaji seems to afford me a more peaceful and tolerant demeanor than ever, and my life is really very balanced, full, interesting and rewarding. I am not a practicing premie but I am just as committed to integrity and truth as ever.


BTW I think Joe did a pretty good job in replying to you about this below (thanks Joe).

As one who also relished and became addicted to the light-headedness that meditation brings but who, unlike you, chose to take the plunge and follow Maharaji in a more committed manner (as he was actally demanding though you failed to notice presumably because you dared not) I think I am in a better position than you to see what Maharaji is all about. Sorry, but that is just the way I see it.

I simply have had more experience of the results of following Maharaji's instructions to the letter than you.

Clearly from the moment that you bowed out of the 'opportunity to commit' you also condemned yorself to becoming one of Maharaji's eternal 'bliss ninny apologists' who never got close enough to the real guy to get burned, and who forever have the wishful-thinking and wrong impression that Maharaji is the spotless orchestrator of your light-headed in-the-flowness.

Of course it suits Maharaji just fine that you guys are still doing a great job of denying his or his father's actual past history of making people make huge sacrifices, terrorising them in private meetings etc.

You sound as if you are one of those premies who, in your blissful self-absorbtion, failed or rather 'chose not to notice' that Maharaji made some very serious demands on those who aspired to really go the whole hog at being a premie.(which was after all what Maharaji was constantly trying to get us to do) Ie. by advocating the ashram lifestyle for those who truly wanted to be his followers.

The fact that you failed to hear or register all these things that were said, tells me that you were in denial of reality. Probably because of a combination of your subconcious better-sense telling you that to surrender in the ashram would not be a pleasant experience and the fact that you were more concerned with continuing your light-headed world than facing up to the real message of Maharaji as he was actually delivering it.

There were a lot of premies who were into their version of Knowledge. ie they meditated themselves into light-headed bliss but did not have the guts to really do what Maharaji was recommending. They just made knowledge 'a part of their lives' (surely you remember Maharaji deriding those premies who did that rather than striving to 'make their lives- a part of Knowledge'?)

You (dare I suggest once compartively half-hearted) current premie crew, now turn around glibly and taunt us who did totally commit, with suggestions that it was we who had questionable motives at the time. Not you. (At that same time Maharaji himself would have said that those who chose not to surrender were the ones with questionable motives.) and then you further toe the party revisionist line that Maharaji never demanded surrender. How convenient! Worse, you chide us with comments like:

'What a drag that you should feel resentful over decisions you made so long ago - 20 years or more. Another reason why it is so important to know oneself and be true to oneself.'

as if you, as one who didn't have the guts to follow the great Master's Way, were somehow being truer to yourself by ignoring his recommendations. And do you suggest that we who were clearly listening more closely to Maharaji's words and who felt obliged to follow his instructions however confronting or challenging, were somehow not being true as to ourselves as you? Maybe you're right, but had not Maharaji effectively robbed us of our ability to be true to ourselves by demanding such blind obedience and surrender to his Agya? Remember 'Agya' means 'order' not 'polite request'.

Do you think we surrendered our lives to him for trite fun? So as we too could be light-headed spiritual egoists?

Yes it is a drag that we feel resentment for having our sincerity totally taken advantage of, but not half as much a drag as it is that 'satisfied customers' - people like you - continue to support the guy, revise history on his behalf and deny the truth with your glossy self-obsessed imaginary picture of Maharaji, his father etc. that you forlornly chose to believe. I am actually sorry for you since my life is much better for having done a reality check on this matter.

I suppose I should be thanful that by my commitment and subsequent 'getting closer' to Maharaji was, ironically the thing that accelerated my disillusionment, and allowed me to get real enough to see things the way they actually are..

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:57:22 (GMT)
From: Joe [Premie]
Email: None
To: cynthia
Subject: Smart [edited by forum administrator]
Message:
[From Forum Adminisatrtor]

Consider yourself no longer welcome on Forum V, 'Joe'.

(Forum Guideline 17a, subclause iii)

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:19:56 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: This is another 'Joe' -- to FA
Message:
FA,

Can you please remove the above post. It isn't mine.

Joe

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:15:55 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What????? (nt)
Message:
ny
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:25:47 (GMT)
From: joe [the Premie]
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: [nuisance removed by FA]
Message:
[read above message to you. FA]
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:22:18 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: joe
Subject: Fuck off you coward....
Message:
Whoever in the hell you are, get a life, you weasel.
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:05:21 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: joe
Subject: Got it!...Thanks (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:08:27 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: great great great post!!!!!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 17:03:41 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: great great great post!!!!!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:50:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Yes, exactly! Dog, shp, Eric, he got yo numba!
Message:
Really well put, Anon.

Fuck these assholes for turning it all on its head.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 12:05:36 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Ashram premies, revisionists and K Lite kids
Message:
Anon

This post more than any other so far (and I've only been around here for 6 months or so) has clarified FOR ME the importance of remembering the different categories of experience which people coming here have had.

You express so accurately the situation which the ashram premies find themselves in - and I feel more empathy and awareness of the levels of damage, anger and other 'issues' which you guys have been coming to terms with for years.

It utterly makes me aware of the dangers of letting the past be forgotten - 'Forgive and Forget' could allow breeding ground for another Reich for example, to trample over the weak - whilst the Premies, too dizzy from meditating would be unconcerned.

As a gung ho 82-late 90s PWK who was around in the last wave of revisionist instructor making - there are a number of points which might bear re-iterating when considering the way forward for EPO and the forums.

1. There are many people who received K in the past 5-10 years who have Never heard the terms Premie, Ashram, Guru Maharaj ji etc etc.

These are simply NEVER used or heard - and i would advise anybody who is serious about helping NEW Exiters to attend an event now and again - and keep informed as to how Knowledge and the master are being presented - we need to be 'synchronised' with him (!!) otherwise the shadow of millenium '73 (Which is as mythical to me as are the Wars of the Roses) and the ashrams could overshadow much modern and subtle damage - which may not be as 'tangible'. Recent premies may have less visible economic or social disruption to deal with - but we have been 'interfered with' and relationships have been affected - sometimes devistatingly.

I think that a forum like Recent-Exes for example - could play an important role in giving people TIME to come to terms with suppressed thoughts - a sort of half way house where there can be no room for flaming.

As I have said before -
'Leaving his Lotus feet, Where can they Go ?'

You are all undoubtably playing an incredible part in the dissolution of the social and religious structure which surrounds him - and many many people, from all walks of life are going to find themselves wanting to Come to terms with what is happening in their lives.

They may not be angry, they may not be bent on revenge, they may just need someone to talk to.
Lets not forget that. Most of us have suffered a lot from the lack of compassion in the premie world. We can do better.We have been burned and are now healing.

We are an incredible community. We have all seperately (and together)been through an experience of contact with DLM/EV/M which has made a deep impression - and are now at various stages of reconciling our New World View with our Group and Individual past experiences.

A wider spectrum of responses and attitudes it would be hard to imagine - all valid -even (and especially) Jim's reliable prods to the ego and the conscience !

Thankyou Anon for your post. I had 'forgotten' how badly you guys were burned and it makes me very proud to be in the veterans club with you.

Loaf

(Gone a bit soft and fuzzy now... help....I'm fading away !)

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 11:28:44 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Thanks- my feelings entirely but better expressed
Message:
nt (sorry couldnt fit nt in above)
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 12:07:33 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Its too late to put NT in the post ! Thats funny !
Message:
(nt)Oops !
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 12:53:23 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Friends Everywhere
Subject: A Step off the Edge of the World
Message:
I can't help but wonder at all this grief...we had a choice, we
heard his words; they were most clear. 'You are not recieving me, you are recieving my Knowledge...'

I took the Knowledge, practiced it as advertised and lead a happy life. I am a successful New Age musician and a pilot. The
Knowledge at this point is still the pure focus it always was and always will be. Any problems I have are self-created, that is so very clear!

Enjoy your life from the source; where the out-breath meets the in-breath; walk through that door.That's what I heard.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm on my way to Hawaii with my Lady of 24 years for an 10 day blissful step off the edge of the world at 45,000 feet...

Enjoy!!

Blue Max

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 02:22:34 (GMT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Blue Max
Subject: A Step off the Edge of the World
Message:
Hi Jonn.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:06:39 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: You forgot to mention ...
Message:
... how grateful you are to those who lost so much that you could take so lightly.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:45:34 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: You forgot to mention ...
Message:
No, I don't take it lightly..I saw a lot of close friends suffer
but I couldn't lead their lives for them, or tell them what to do with their devotion.

Remember the Prime Directive: It is forbidden to interfere with the spiritual destiny of those inner worlds that belong to others..They have the last word for themselves.

Blue Max

PS But I do enjoy my life and am thankful for the decisions I was able to make concerning my own destiny.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:02:18 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: Something strange it seems to me ...
Message:
Blue Max: ... the Prime Directive: It is forbidden to interfere with the spiritual destiny of those inner worlds that belong to others..

This kind of interference is one of the prime complaints made against Rawat's business model. But not by the heroic Blue Max; is your nom-de-plume ironic, I wonder?

When pressed by the dreaded Jim, you ventured

... I saw a lot of friends suffering through all of it and in a quiet way I just wanted to be there for them somehow.

So I stayed but kept my distance..

I know it's not much, but that's what happened.

The act of a kind and humble man. But the way you express yourself seems to me (forgive me) more in the manner of a proud and shallow one.

Take care, Blue Max. You could be taken for a Blue Meanie, hereabouts.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:29:40 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: agree with JohnT
Message:
Remember the Prime Directive: It is forbidden to interfere with the spiritual destiny of those inner worlds that belong to others..They have the last word for themselves.--Blue Smuck

Most people accept that these internal experiences (regardless whether you consider them to be 'spiritual' or not) are accessible to every human who takes the time to explore them.

That being a given, and also being given that there are myriad ways of accomplishing this if one so desires, Rawat's heinous interference into peoples' live for his own personal aggrandisement and material enrichment is especially egregious.

Yeah, I'd say he was a big violator of your 'prime directive,' there, pal.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:19:19 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: A Step off the Edge of the World
Message:
At the time I entered the ashram, the basis was the following:

1. Maharaji is God.
2. Living the ashram lifestyle by following the ashram schedule.
3. Complete dedication of the above.

The fact is we believed him and trusted what he said. So when we were repeatedly told to have no interests except knowledge and it's propagation, we believed him. That's why many of former ashramees and others ended up in poverty, emotionally damaged and many suicides.

I was in many meetings with prempal when we were explicitly told that we(the ashramees) were his arms and legs because we had dedicated our whole lives to him. We were totally available 24 hours a day and many destroyed themselves in the process.

We were abused at the deepest level.

So you're a pilot and a successfull musician....so what? Why don't you premies realise that we are discussing real-life issues here. A person blowing up a bus load of children in the name of god also feels good.

Your master is a thief.....but still you're having a good experience..so it doesn't matter does it?

Jethro

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:24:55 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: A Step off the Edge of the World
Message:
Jethro,

Nice to speak with you. I recieved Knowledge in '72 but prior to that I was a philosophy major, used to cutting everything in pieces and looking for the key ingredient. I lived in the ashram
for 2 years, recognized the fallacy and left with the key ingredient. I took him at his word and ignored everything else, built a life based on the inner world and never gave up on what I wanted from life. It wasn't easy, and maybe I'm wrong, but it worked out and feels great!

I had friends who stayed in the ashram and when it got tough for them, I recommended my solution. Some took it, some didn't.

There are thousands of us out there who did it this way.. I don't mean to be flip but it seemed clear to me and others that this was the way to go.

Maharaji's problem was applying the Hindu model to the west. It was never meant to work, we couldn't possibly live that method,
not with our view on things. The recognizing of the essense was the goal and the journey; everything else had to go..

A step off the edge of the world..each moment.

Blue Max

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:10:16 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: A Step off the Edge of the World
Message:
'The recognizing of the essense was the goal and the
journey; everything else had to go..'

Yes , humanness included.

So the fact that maharaji protects paedophilles dosn't bother you?
His revisionism doesn't bother you?

That makes you a perfect devotee.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:36:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: Wow, that's like Jonathan Livingstone Seagull!
Message:
Stepping off the world each moment!

Can I use that sometime, Blue?

Nice to speak with you. I recieved Knowledge in '72 but prior to that I was a philosophy major, used to cutting everything in pieces and looking for the key ingredient. I lived in the ashram
for 2 years, recognized the fallacy and left with the key ingredient. I took him at his word and ignored everything else, built a life based on the inner world and never gave up on what I wanted from life. It wasn't easy, and maybe I'm wrong, but it worked out and feels great!

Did it ever occur to you that Maharaji has no authority as anything? Ever thought about that?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:46:36 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wow, that's like Jonathan Livingstone Seagull!
Message:
Sure man, anytime!

To me, Maharaji had the authority to give the techniques and guide from within. He seemed to pound this into my head at a time when I needed to hear it.

I had seen enough of 'Group Therapy' in college to know that it wasn't going to help a stubborn musician/pilot like me to hang around too long.

I took him at his word; it worked; I'm glad.

If you get the chance, go to Hawaii..it explains everything.

Blue Max

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:11:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: I lived in Hawaii, it explained nothing
Message:
I lived in Hawaii briefly about ten years ago. Olinda, to be precise, a small I-don't-know-what-you-call-it outside Makawao, above Kihei on the wet side of Haleakala. I went to work for a lawyer I'd met through some friends while on vacation there. Burt Gould, a major snake if I ever saw one.

Everyone was new agey and ultimately untrustworthy. Now I'm not saying that all new-agey people are like that. But I do note that the new-age drop-your-defenses-brother-and-sister move is a very good lubricant for fucking someone over.

The music scene on Maui sucked too. There was that one guy who'se claim to fame was that he backed up Santana years ago. He had a running gig at that bar in Lahaina where one 'ecstatic' night we hung out with Michael Douglas and some NFL team. No one else was there. Douglas had this gorgeous girl with him although he himself looked a bit like a turtle.

But the music scene was nothing but the typical Deadhead, Rainbow tribe, world beat, reggae shit which, though I've loved in the right doses from time to time, got old fast.

What island you on?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:29:00 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This explains things a bit.....
Message:
You have been burned by a new agey 'brother'!

Jim said: >Everyone was new agey and ultimately untrustworthy. Now I'm not saying that all new-agey people are like that.<

Good to see you acknowledge that!

>But I do note that the new-age drop-your-defenses-brother-and-sister move is a very good lubricant for fucking someone over.<

Vivid metaphor, but...
I agree with that. Makes it harder to find the trustworthy ones.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:21:35 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Edge of the World
Message:
Oh no, I don't live in Hawaii and I understand what you mean about the prevailing winds blowing over there.

I love the shock value of the climate and the romance to be shared by those in love. I frequent the island of Kauai for its
quiet loveliness and seemless atmosphere. The only thing missing is General Aviation in the way of single engine aircraft rental.

I live in Atlanta where things are reasonable in terms of lifestyle, real estate, music industry and aviation opportunities. Cow pastures 15 minutes outside of town center but that's changing...

Blue Max

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 13:22:04 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: A Step off the Edge of the World
Message:
I dread to think what 'stepping off the edge of the world at 45,000 feet...' could do to your health. I am also a successful New Age musician (chuckle) and my father won the DFC which was somewhat on the way to being the equivalent of the coveted German medal -the Blue Max I believe.

I could take issue with your comments but frankly I think `I have explained why I disagree about all my problems as a premie being all self-created. You guys seem to be saying 'don't take it all so seriously -we didn't' Have a nice holiday. I'll take your advice.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:37:08 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: A Step off the Edge of the World
Message:
Nice to speak with you as well. My congratulations to your father and you. The DFC is very important; did he win it in Vietnam, Korea or WW2?

I realize it wasn't easy for a lot of folks in those days. I was just stubborn about who was calling the shots, so I called my own. Maybe I ripped him off in the end by taking the essense and working with it. I went to programs and met many wonderful people. I'm glad about the Internet because now we can discuss all this together.

I'll be careful at 45,000...

A step off the edge of the world...each moment

Blue Max

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:18:50 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: A Step off the Edge of the World
Message:
Nice to speak with you as well. My congratulations to your father and you. The DFC is very important; did he win it in Vietnam, Korea or WW2?

World War One actually, in the Royal Flying Corps in France.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:17:57 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: A Step off the Edge of the World
Message:
Bless you Anon!

I was waiting for that -- I've read what you've posted about your background.

My maternal grandfather (a Manxman) was in the British military thro' WW1 and again thro' WW2. I remember standing with him at the war memorial in his home town while he read the names from off the plaques. He wept as he told me a little about each boy whose name appeared on the WW1 list. He had known them all (the Isle of Man is a close knit society even now).

That conflagration killed most males aged 15 to 25 in all the warring tribes.

'We' had more men than 'them', you see, and it seems our tribal leaders were content that the slaughter would fatally deplete 'them' before 'us'.

We have a lot to learn.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:53:31 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: Stepping Out
Message:
Yes, I think there are a lot of people out here who received K and who didn't go down the same route that a lot of the people on this site went down.

In the first missive to this thread Anon seems to think 'old-time' Ashram premies are in a better position to judge, that they were more serious about their commitment.

Just because not everyone went down the same route, is no bearing upon the commitment made from within a person. I know the commitment I have made to Knowledge has steered me thru it all, all the changes in presentation and form.

And, in fact, it is precisely the metamorphosis and constant evolvement that I really enjoy both about K and M.


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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:17:04 (GMT)
From: anon
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Stepping Out
Message:
Just because not everyone went down the same route, is no bearing upon the commitment made from within a person. I know the commitment I have made to Knowledge has steered me thru it all, all the changes in presentation and form.

My point was that Maharaji said that IF YOU WANTED TO FULLY COMMIT TO KNOWLEDGE YOU HAD TO MOVE INTO THE ASHRAM.

Was he wrong then in your opinion??

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:12:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Yeah, you guys are just a couple of semi's
Message:
Just because not everyone went down the same route, is no bearing upon the commitment made from within a person.

Bullshit.

Either you weren't there, you don't remember, you're joking or you're lying.

Which is it?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:55:01 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Semi-Detached???
Message:
When you say, Jim, either I wasn't there ..... where? In America? No I wasn't in America during those days, Jim, but the world is a big place,Jim, and not every culture apes the American way. Not everything is done the way things are done in America. I know Americans would like to stamp their methodology all over the whole planet as they see their white, middle class, Christianized, sanitized approach to life as being the correct and only way.

And no doubt, during those ashram days in America, what you guys were doing and listening to from each other reflected this rather isolationist point of view.

I never actually 'heard' M say, myself, commit to the ashrams. I have, of course, heard him say commit to the practice of K and one doesn't need to live in the ashram to do this.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:07:32 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Whoops!!
Message:
Homework Eric!

I think you will find the Lord of the Universe expected heez agya to apply to all nations.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:37:45 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah, you guys are just a couple of semi's
Message:
Whoa, hold on there Jim,

We heard what we heard and we acted on that information, each on our own heartfelt decision. I admit it was an existential
mindfield in those days, but the final act was ours to bow to..

I heard it too and committed to two years of ashram life. It was just not me and I had to live with that decision to become what I needed to become. Looking back, I'm glad I did.

We can't bash those who heard it different than it was. We can't.

Blue Max

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:26:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: Blue, can you drop the shit and be honest here?
Message:
I heard it too and committed to two years of ashram life. It was just not me and I had to live with that decision to become what I needed to become.

Yeah, dude? Well I've got news for you, living in a Hindu monastic cult where I woke up every morning at 5:30 to sing a long, LONG devotional song to a picture of a little fat, Indian kid (who, at that very moment, was probably snuggled up to what was then a very, gorgeous and voluptuous female of the species) and then to drop to my knees and bow before his picture, pledgin, earnestly, day after day, that THAT DAY would be different, that THAT DAY I would really, really try to obliterate my individual self on the sacred flame of devotion, etc. etc. etc., day after day, year after year, with no relief, with no sex, with no nothing that said 'Jim Heller' on it, smashing myself into submission as best I could because, as we knew, the ashram was a very SPECIAL place ......

that wasn't really me either.

Fuck you, you hypocritical new age idiot!

Only a few weird religious freaks among us, if that, ever thought that the ashram was really 'us'.

Face it, Blue, you deserted.

That's right, when push came to shove, you didn't trust Maharaji and you snuck out and have been trying to rationalize your decision ever since.

Well, lucky, lucky you. It jut so happens that Maharaji is also embarrassed by the whole over-the-top devotion and sacrifice phenomenon of the ashram. He's right in there with you lying his ass off about what it was really all about. Just like you, Blu, Maharaji will lie about what it meant to join the ashram and, just like you, he'll lie about what it meant to leave it.

But you can't fool us, creep. As IF you had a life and the rest of us didn't!

Go fuck yourself.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:08:10 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Honesty
Message:
Jim, you have to accept that Blue is probably being honest. As I am being honest, shp is being honest.

It sounds like you guys weren't being honest from what you say about living in the ashram. If it really wasn't for you why did you stay on??? If you were all so unhappy why didn't you say, not for me, too? Blue did, I did, and many others I knew did too. Not everyone just baa baa'd along like a bunch a sheep and lived lives we were unhappy in.

I used to think that when I was around ashram premies. I couldn't understand how come if you were in the ashram and making that commitment, etc. why you all looked so unhaappy, unhealthy and for the most part, why were you all so arrogant and pretentious.

It is extremely unhealthy, emotionally and physically, to live unhappy lives. Nobody forced you in to the ashram, Jim. You made the decision, accept the responsibility for the decisions you made and learn to be true and honest to what you want in life.

You have to remember M did not exactly actually SAY and DO everything you hear. In terms of ashrams I doubt he was there giving every directive to every ashram that ever set up in the States. I would think that was one of the main reasons why he shut them down because they had turned in to mini-fifedoms where stronger individuals could exercise their power and control over weaker individuals. This had nothing to do with M, this had everythinng to do with you being responsible for your own life

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 19:00:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Read this, Eric
Message:
You make no sense whatsoever, Eric. AS IF Maharaji didn't lay a very, very heavy trip on premies about staying in the ashram! That's a bald-faced lie. The only way Maharaji said you DIDN'T have to be there was as a facetious joke. You know, like, 'hey, if you want to be lead around by your mind, if that sounds okay to you, if you don't really want to dedicate your life, if you're not a real premie, if you're not serious about realizing God, realizing Knowledge, if you don't really trust me, fine, split.'

Fact is, you're just another semie. You gave up depth -- even misguided, wrongheaded, cult-steeped depth -- a long time ago. I honestly abhor what you guys have turned into. We were all once better than that.

Here, read this:

There are a lot of premies who are very confused about the ashram situation. Really, I tell you, that's where your mind comes in. Listen. You have to first understand the definition of an ashram (read the Ashram Code, as written by Maharaji). Understand the definition of an ashram, and if it applies to you, go ahead, go and move in; if it doesn't apply to you, get out of there - what are you - doing there ? You know ?

And the definition of an ashram is that it is a place for a person who really wants to understand this Knowledge. It is for that premie who wants to really understand this Knowledge and be in an environment which will boost that realisation, who wants - in other words - shelter from this world into something which is more applicable to him.

It's like, the sun is beautiful, and the desert is beautiful, but only when you are looking at it from your air-conditioned room's window. When you get out there it is not so beautiful, because it gets too hot. And it's like, at that point you need a shade, you need something that's applicable to you.

You will reap what you have sown, everybody knows that. If you sow mangoes, you won't reap berries. You will reap mangoes. If you build an ashram, many people will come and take knowledge and they will bless your soul. It will be a wonderful thing! (Maharaji - September 17, 1974)

Q: For whom do you recommend ashram life ?

Ans: For whom ? Everybody, of course. For human beings, not chimpanzees. But first they must have no obligations. And they must want to dedicate their whole life.

Q: I get confused about which service I should be doing as a devotee.

Ans: Common sense is uncommon. Now, just what do you think is appropriate for you to do ? Now, if you want to drive a plane, and you don't know how to drive a plane, then that won't be useful service for you. You must know what to do. If you know how to work as a housemother in an ashram, then work as a housemother. If you don't want to stay in an ashram, then do Satsang. Right ? Common sense is uncommon. Yes ?

Q: Guru Maharaj Ji, I had a lot of doubts and a lot of people I know still have the same doubts about the strictness of the ashram. I would like to know what to say to them about why this has to be. They feel you're on a control trip ?

Ans: Now you see, God is the controller, it is His control trip. Why, do you see with your mouth or with your nose ? Why only with eyes ? You talk about it being a control trip, then why do you only see with your eyes and not with your mouth ? Why ? Because that's the way things are, and that's the way things are going to be. Understand ?

A man who sees through his mouth, you are not going to call him a man. You are going to call him a monster ! A man must see through his eyes, that's the way it must be.

ASHRAM has to be ashram, and an ashram is not a motel. An ashram is an ashram and an ashram has got something of a soul in it. You don't go into a church and just start sleeping there and drinking your coffee there. You don't do that, do you ? A church is a church, a temple is a temple. You are strict about doing certain things there. Understand ?

You go to a church, you pray, you meditation, read something, you understand something, and you become more spiritual, right ?

Why should there be so much strictness? Because, we are the children of God and this is the house of God, that's why there should be so much strictness. That's the way it has to be, that's why.

Q: What is confusing, though, is that some of the ashram people say, 'the whole world should be like the ashram.'

Ans: If the whole world can be like that, it will be fantastic ! There is so much desperation around the world. I read advertisements encouraging people to smoke. And there is an ashram regulation saying, 'Do not smoke', so if that happens all the way round the world, it will be fantastic. No drugs nothing like that. Everyone neat and clean and active. It will be fantastic THING is that a person has to realize how much he needs an ashram.

Ashram is a shelter.

You know, and a certain way has been set up, a certain life has been set up, so that there is not a big a mess in an ashram. I mean, can you imagine if there was just nothing ? (Maharaji - September, 1972)

THING is, a student can learn English and everything he wants to learn out of school, he can learn it by himself, but it will take him centuries to do that, while the school is something he can go to, you know, and do it much more quickly, you know ?

Do you understand what I mean ? It's like, if you want to do it outside, you can do it, but it's like that when you're outside, it's like the mind itself just takes you around a little bit - because you are giving it freedom of its own. You understand ?

But when you are in an ashram, it's really hard for it to work, you know, because premies that are really, don't want to be in an ashram, you know, it's simply because of their mind, you know. And that is what, that's just really troubling them. But if you want to do it outside the ashram you can do it, but it will probably take centuries and ages. (Maharaji - December 27, 1973 - Telephone Conversation)

You can meditate on the Knowledge and you will get high, but there's a certain amount of personal involvement that makes a lot of difference in the time it takes you to elevate. Of course, you can be elevated to the same point where you are living not in the ashram, because you don't have to live in the ashram. But it's better to live in the ashram because twenty four hour a day you have got a complete environment, you know, feeling the vibrations you are getting, meditating properly. ... (Maharaji - July, 1972 - Denver)

I am not going to push a premie into an ashram. It's totally up to them. And as soon as they pass their standards to move into the ashram, we will see. It's not their choice to make. Besides the point that they make the choice to move into an ashram, there is also our choice to make if he passes our standards, who will let him move into an ashram. If you think you are ready for it, just apply for it. If you don't think you are ready, then don't apply for it. There is no question.

Q: How closely should the ashrams be run by the book ?

Ans: It's not the question how close they should stick to the book. The question is, 'Who wrote the good book' ?

Q: You did.

Ans: There is your answer. I dictated it and I sanctioned it, and if you are really a premie and a devotee who is dedicated and who is going to obey Agya, then you are going to follow the good book (read the Ashram Code). Otherwise you are not. (Maharaji - 1975 - Orlando Conference)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:07:18 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I read it Jim
Message:
Yes, he must have said all that, you have it all so well-dcumented .... but in amongst it all he also said .... 'I am not going to push a premie in to an ashram. It's up to them ....' that's in there too.

And when were these statements made ... 1972 .... 1975. M was born in 1958/9 (something like that) so he'd have been 14, 15. I think a person is entitled to change their opinions from what they thought was correct at 14 (just arriving from India) to what they may express nearly 30 years later.

It is hard to believe that you are justing re-hashing and re-hashing words over and over again from so long ago.

In the ashram ..... out of the ashram ..... it really is not the point, Jim.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:20:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: You can do better than that, Eric
Message:
Why don't you just admit that you were wrong?

Fact is, Maharaji DID lay a big guilt trip on us about leaving, you weren't devoted enough to care and, really, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:32:12 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's OK Jim
Message:
Jim,

Come on ,man; it's ok to be a little upset but you got to face it; you had a choice, you chose to stay, I chose to leave.

A lot of folks felt that split beginning to happen and took a stand one way or the other.Maybe neither one was the right thing to do but BOTH sides were faced with picking up the pieces and rebuilding their lives.

I can't speak for anyone nor can I find fault with anyone else's
choice and I sure can't perform quaint anatomically immpossible
functionalities on myself for anyone's visual pleasure.

Don't carry it with you, let it go my friend...

Blue Max

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:48:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: Don't call me 'friend', bud
Message:
Come on ,man; it's ok to be a little upset but you got to face it; you had a choice, you chose to stay, I chose to leave.

Well, this is easy. Listen, Mr. Edge-of-the-World, the 'choice' was only the one your mind gave you. You supposedly surrendered your body to Maharaji when you joined the ashram. Yes, you supposedly gave him the whole thing to start with when you got initiated but joining the ashram was a definite one-way street. That's why people were supposed to take the decision very, very seriously and only take the vows if they felt -- gulp! -- that they meant it.

So, like many other ashram premies but certainly not all, you went back on your word. You took back what you'd already given and given for keeps. And why? Because you stopped Maharaji. Simple truth of the matter. You didn't have the kind of devotion you thought you did, the kind he insisted on.

Whatever years you were in the ashram, unless they were the last two when he gave up the whole charade himself, you defied your guru's direct agya. You left like a sneaky little dog. You know as well as I do how ashamed you were then! How you might have been able to go to satsang after you moved ou, you might have been able to even give satsang then, but it just wasn't the same. Instead of talking about devotion, surrender and committment, you had to find some shuck-ass jive that somehow obscured the truth that you had given up trying.

You know that. I don't have to tell you. You know that.

A lot of folks felt that split beginning to happen and took a stand one way or the other.Maybe neither one was the right thing to do but BOTH sides were faced with picking up the pieces and rebuilding their lives.

What the fuck are you talking about? What about your Lord then? What about his agya, huh? What about what he wanted?

And what about your mind? Or are you the one premie who didn't hear Maharaji warn you about this dark, inner monster that would try to steal you away from him?

You talk a lot of obscure, meaningless shit, fella.

I can't speak for anyone nor can I find fault with anyone else's
choice and I sure can't perform quaint anatomically immpossible
functionalities on myself for anyone's visual pleasure.

Wipe that smile off your face. You were a coward when you were in the cult and now you're a coward .... when you're still in the cult.

BUT THAT'S OKAY. Because it's a coward's game now, bud. 'Edge-of-the-World' my ass!

Don't carry it with you, let it go my friend...

More like 'take a shower' after dealing with you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 04:30:20 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Call me 'friend', bud
Message:
Jim,

You're right. This is too easy..

A page on this site:Maharaji on the Ashram

'If it applies to you, go ahead and move in. If it doesn't, get out of there'. Sounds like a choice to me. I know we'd be friends; let me take you flying..you'd love it.

Blue Max

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 04:38:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: That's not much of an answer, kemo sabe
Message:
Yeah, but be honest. Admit that the 'choice' was whether to follow your guru's agya or your mind. You chose the latter. Admit it.
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:01:47 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's not much of an answer, kemo sabe
Message:
Jim,

Yes, I guess I chose the ladder; at least it enabled me to climb a few rungs to see my way..

All kidding aside, at that time I didn't know what I was listening to; Mind or Command. I just knew that I had to move either way or face greater problems. The philosophical knife
took over and the techniques became the focus, regardless..

Like I said , I saw a lot of friends suffering through all of it
and in a quiet way I just wanted to be there for them somehow.

So I stayed but kept my distance..

I know it's not much, but that's what happened.

Blue Max

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:24:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: Would you please open up a bit more?
Message:
You're one step up from Haiku, Blue. As it is, I'm not really sure I know what you're talking about. But if I do read you correctly, you're saying something really interesting when you write:

All kidding aside, at that time I didn't know what I was listening to; Mind or Command. I just knew that I had to move either way or face greater problems. The philosophical knife
took over and the techniques became the focus, regardless..

I infer from this that, at one point, you started feeling plagued by doubt about whether Maharaji could really deliver. You know, you give him the reigns of your life, he gives you eternal peace, salvation. You wanted out. You left and took the techniques with you. And ever since you've pretended that that was not a betrayal of your faith in your guru.

What part of that is wrong, Blue?

See, as you know, all your other ashram brothers and sisters had those same doubts, desires, confusion. But they just didn't give up, not then anyway. Maharaji said don't listen to your mind and they kept trying. You quit.

What part of that is wrong, Blue?

I guess, in a nutshell, there's good news and bad news. Which do you want first?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:46:49 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Just caught your last post
Message:
Jim,

A little of both I guess.. As I said I was a philosophy guy so I started cutting away the inconsistencies and took him at his word
'It's the Knowledge not me...' thing.

Maybe it was cowardice but a survival kind of cowardice. I sidestepped the Guru Faith and substituted the inner work directly. I wanted to see if the ashram was valid in my circumstances and it wasn't.

In a way, guilty as charged, your honor..kemo sabe(I like that!)

Blue Max

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:48:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: Thanks
Message:
You show promise.

More later.

Have a good flight.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:50:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: correction
Message:
Because you stopped Maharaji.

should read something like

'Because you stopped trusting Maharaji'

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:29:59 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Let's talk again sometime
Message:
Jim,

Nice talking to you and you're right about a lot of it. No one got away clean even if they tried..I took what I could.

Got to fly early so let's talk again sometime.

Clear Skies, Bright Moon,

Blue Max

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:46:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: Sure, but let me leave you with this
Message:
It took me a while to figure out what you were talking about with that quote from Maharaji. Here's the whole talk with the part you quoted highlighted. Obviously, you know what was going on there. You're not stupid. Read the whole thing and it's clear that Maharaji was being completely derisive, sarcastic and faceitous when he said 'if it doesn't apply to you, get out of there...'

But you knew that.

So what kind of game are you playing, Blue? Playing dumb is what it looks like. A real Semie.

Anyway, like I said, there's good news and bad news. I'll look forward to hearing from you.

There are a lot of premies who are very confused about the ashram situation. Really, I tell you, that's where your mind comes in. Listen. You have to first understand the definition of an ashram (read the Ashram Code, as written by Maharaji). Understand the definition of an ashram, and if it applies to you, go ahead, go and move in; if it doesn't apply to you, get out of there - what are you - doing there ? You know ?

And the definition of an ashram is that it is a place for a person who really wants to understand this Knowledge. It is for that premie who wants to really understand this Knowledge and be in an environment which will boost that realisation, who wants - in other words - shelter from this world into something which is more applicable to him.

It's like, the sun is beautiful, and the desert is beautiful, but only when you are looking at it from your air-conditioned room's window. When you get out there it is not so beautiful, because it gets too hot. And it's like, at that point you need a shade, you need something that's applicable to you.

You will reap what you have sown, everybody knows that. If you sow mangoes, you won't reap berries. You will reap mangoes. If you build an ashram, many people will come and take knowledge and they will bless your soul. It will be a wonderful thing! (Maharaji - September 17, 1974)

Q: For whom do you recommend ashram life ?

Ans: For whom ? Everybody, of course. For human beings, not chimpanzees. But first they must have no obligations. And they must want to dedicate their whole life.

Q: I get confused about which service I should be doing as a devotee.

Ans: Common sense is uncommon. Now, just what do you think is appropriate for you to do ? Now, if you want to drive a plane, and you don't know how to drive a plane, then that won't be useful service for you. You must know what to do. If you know how to work as a housemother in an ashram, then work as a housemother. If you don't want to stay in an ashram, then do Satsang. Right ? Common sense is uncommon. Yes ?

Q: Guru Maharaj Ji, I had a lot of doubts and a lot of people I know still have the same doubts about the strictness of the ashram. I would like to know what to say to them about why this has to be. They feel you're on a control trip ?

Ans: Now you see, God is the controller, it is His control trip. Why, do you see with your mouth or with your nose ? Why only with eyes ? You talk about it being a control trip, then why do you only see with your eyes and not with your mouth ? Why ? Because that's the way things are, and that's the way things are going to be. Understand ?

A man who sees through his mouth, you are not going to call him a man. You are going to call him a monster ! A man must see through his eyes, that's the way it must be.

ASHRAM has to be ashram, and an ashram is not a motel. An ashram is an ashram and an ashram has got something of a soul in it. You don't go into a church and just start sleeping there and drinking your coffee there. You don't do that, do you ? A church is a church, a temple is a temple. You are strict about doing certain things there. Understand ?

You go to a church, you pray, you meditation, read something, you understand something, and you become more spiritual, right ?

Why should there be so much strictness? Because, we are the children of God and this is the house of God, that's why there should be so much strictness. That's the way it has to be, that's why.

Q: What is confusing, though, is that some of the ashram people say, 'the whole world should be like the ashram.'

Ans: If the whole world can be like that, it will be fantastic ! There is so much desperation around the world. I read advertisements encouraging people to smoke. And there is an ashram regulation saying, 'Do not smoke', so if that happens all the way round the world, it will be fantastic. No drugs nothing like that. Everyone neat and clean and active. It will be fantastic THING is that a person has to realize how much he needs an ashram.

Ashram is a shelter.

You know, and a certain way has been set up, a certain life has been set up, so that there is not a big a mess in an ashram. I mean, can you imagine if there was just nothing ? (Maharaji - September, 1972)

THING is, a student can learn English and everything he wants to learn out of school, he can learn it by himself, but it will take him centuries to do that, while the school is something he can go to, you know, and do it much more quickly, you know ?

Do you understand what I mean ? It's like, if you want to do it outside, you can do it, but it's like that when you're outside, it's like the mind itself just takes you around a little bit - because you are giving it freedom of its own. You understand ?

But when you are in an ashram, it's really hard for it to work, you know, because premies that are really, don't want to be in an ashram, you know, it's simply because of their mind, you know. And that is what, that's just really troubling them. But if you want to do it outside the ashram you can do it, but it will probably take centuries and ages. (Maharaji - December 27, 1973 - Telephone Conversation)

You can meditate on the Knowledge and you will get high, but there's a certain amount of personal involvement that makes a lot of difference in the time it takes you to elevate. Of course, you can be elevated to the same point where you are living not in the ashram, because you don't have to live in the ashram. But it's better to live in the ashram because twenty four hour a day you have got a complete environment, you know, feeling the vibrations you are getting, meditating properly. ... (Maharaji - July, 1972 - Denver)

I am not going to push a premie into an ashram. It's totally up to them. And as soon as they pass their standards to move into the ashram, we will see. It's not their choice to make. Besides the point that they make the choice to move into an ashram, there is also our choice to make if he passes our standards, who will let him move into an ashram. If you think you are ready for it, just apply for it. If you don't think you are ready, then don't apply for it. There is no question.

Q: How closely should the ashrams be run by the book ?

Ans: It's not the question how close they should stick to the book. The question is, 'Who wrote the good book' ?

Q: You did.

Ans: There is your answer. I dictated it and I sanctioned it, and if you are really a premie and a devotee who is dedicated and who is going to obey Agya, then you are going to follow the good book (read the Ashram Code). Otherwise you are not. (Maharaji - 1975 - Orlando Conference)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:36:50 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Stepping Out
Message:
That's what it's all about. Knowledge is a hidden world, for your eyes only.

As I said, I do feel deeply for those who went a different way; I saw early on that I couldn't apply my life to the renunciate model. I enjoy the transcendental nature of the physical and spiritual modalities too much to limit myself that way.

The edge of the world where the moment resides is such a real
place...

Blue Max

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:50:14 (GMT)
From: Bill
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: Wild blue yonder
Message:
He recieved knowledge in early 73 and kept away from satsang except if it was a special mahatma.
He attended the big events but had no contact with the community.
A smart decision although it does leave its programming imprint that survives to this day.
He is an artist and I have his latest CD which is not only very good, but is, as you may guess, flight related.
I guess he is in flight about now?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:20:05 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Don't Hold Me Back II
Message:
I'm sorry to say this, but you guys who live in the U.S. have full responsibility at this point for Prem Pal Singh Rawat living in your country.

You guys are harboring a criminal.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:46:28 (GMT)
From: Hey Steve
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Don't Hold Me Back II
Message:
Take it easy old chap. I just read your posts and also picked up that you are feeling very angry and radical. I think that anger is a justifiable reaction for sure, but it doesn't help anyone to get ruled by such passions to the point of frustration, obsession or self destruction. Personally although I am critical of Maharaji I share Scott's opinion that letting off steam gradually in a discussion group such as this can, in most cases, be kinder to oneself than undertaking to confront Maharaji or premies head on. Certainly these discussions can be a very effective therapy and also seem to be slowly but surely giving premies and Maharaji the message that we are not so grateful for some of the things that have happened to us as premies. Don't want to hold you back..just don't want you to get too burned out with the radical resistance approach.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:21:01 (GMT)
From: Hey Steve....
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Look at the post above...
Message:
Steve,

I gave you my real name. If you don't want to post to me I understand, but...maybe we can have some conversations.

I have to off-line tonight...my husband's expecting a business call and I don't have a dedicated line to my computer. If you decide to respond, I promise to answer.

Be well,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:27:08 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Hey Steve....
Subject: Look at the post above...
Message:
Please don't address me as 'Hey Steve' again.

If I have to explain why, you should be back in grade school, probably first grade.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:24:04 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: apologize
Message:
this belongs on your 8th step list
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:14:59 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: janet
Subject: apologize
Message:
I responded to this message at the wrong place, i.e. under 'and the net is as safe as a playpen'.

By the way, are janet and janet of venice the same person? Where is venice if the aforementioned question is answered in the affirmative? I hate ambiguity and confusion - it's totally unnecessary and wastes my, your and other people's most valuable commodity, time.

Don't play mind games with me or other people around here.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:47:41 (GMT)
From: janet(yes, of venice)
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: i dont play games unles you do
Message:
i got tired of always adding the 'venice' part. it wasted time. ppl are referring to me in their postings now as just 'janet', so i felt at ease with just using my name. knock off the paranoia, already. when i'm playing games on you, believe me--you'll know it.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:39:42 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Hey Steve
Subject: Don't Hold Me Back II
Message:
I am immediately instituting a policy to completely ignore messages sent under pseudonym. For now, real first name is minimum for my eyes.

Just in case you don't have the intelligence to figure out why, your parents who brought you into this world gave you a name. If you cannot even accept that and express it when appropriate, you are a non-entity in my opinion.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:38:23 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: and the net is as safe as a playpen..
Message:
wake up steve! this is a public forum! we have enemies! do you want a hammer through YOUR skull for fulminating about maharaji?

you want real identities, get them in private! honestly--don't you do ANY homework about the internet??? the first thing i was taught when i came online last year was NEVER give out your real name, whereabouts, phone number or any other directly traceable information about yourself when you're in a public room. there have been murders, steve. stalkings. people followed home and killed.!!
dammit!! you think your rarified little snit is reason enough to 'out' everyone here?? blackmail em into giving out their info in public just to prove to you in your moment of hysteria that they're really there for you?? bite the hands that reach to help you? and then come in all fresh and dewy the next morning like nothing happened?? FUCK YOU! I have feelings! and I have brains. I am who i am. so are you. take us the way we choose to make ourselves known! what stinking ego, to demand that someone else's safety be less important than your tantrums of the hour!by the next day, yeah-- your mood may clear--but their name is here forever.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:15:11 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Thanks, janet, I couldn't have said it better (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:16:18 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: janet
Subject: and the net is as safe as a playpen..
Message:
Don't be a fucking idiot, Janet or Janet of Venice or whatever your real name is.

Go get therapy, pronto.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:23:00 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Steven Quint
Subject: and the net is as safe as a playpen..
Message:
To revise the above message, please make sure to send the bill for your therapy to Prem Pal Singh Rawat.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:10:39 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: janet
Subject: and the net is as safe as a playpen..
Message:
One of my favorite sayings comes from a friend of mine who has been in A.A. for twenty years, has sponsored many, many people and who received k in India in 1971 before m left for the west.

'Don't be taking my inventory'.

I'll also repeat what I wrote above:

I've been hurt more often than I could possibly record on an older P.C.

Pain is part of life. No two ways about it.

Learn from your pain.

Love,

Steve

Love,

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:18:23 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: and i suppose I'm supposed to be grateful...
Message:
for all the new pain you feel free to deal me when you flip out, and, like a fool, i actually offer you what valuable experience i have from my own stores...

it's a free world steve. I'll throw all the inventory i feel like at you. if youre doing your steps, you'll know whats dead on and what isnt.
Don't try to one up me on 'program'. No one fucks with me after i began realize what I'd seen and had done to me. If you shit on me, I'm gonna grab your hands, and ram em straight into those turds, and crush your fingers around em, and drag you, right in along with em, until i have you eyeball to eyeball,-- and i AM going to tell you what you did wrong to me. I WILL tell you what to put on your inventory. I will GO on your 8th step list. And I will do likewise if you do wrong to anyone else i witness, on my watch.

You'll be amazed at how fast i forgive you, the moment you own up to your fuckups, and offer amends. You'll be amazed how fast I'll give you mine, too.

Being damaged doesnt get you any cushy breaks here, Steve. It won't anywhere. the only way is to own your own your shit,
and you know it goes in the toilet, not on our faces.
and not on yours, either.

So clean up your messes, and apologize for your fuckups. We don't deserve any more pain than we've already been dealt, and neither do you.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:43:51 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Don't Hold Me Back II
Message:
Hi Steven -
Please read my post to you below - I do address this point. And I don't agree with your post either. Ex-premie.org is working on the grass-roots level here against an organization with a lot of time and money (the people who work on this site and post on this forum have neither). I think we have accomplished a LOT in the past three years that ex-premie.org has been in existence - more than I ever thought would be possible. It may not seem like much to you, but you should have been here in the beginning.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 10:04:22 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Katie
Subject: Don't Hold Me Back II
Message:
The bullshit never ceases, does it?
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 10:36:26 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: What are you talking about?
Message:
You are perfectly within your rights to initiate a lawsuit or other action against Maharaji yourself. But please don't blame other people for not doing what you think they should do.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 11:07:07 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Katie
Subject: What are you talking about?
Message:
I guess you're right, Katie.

If one person out of a premie community of 50 who knew me visited me in the hospital after a psychotic breakdown, why should I expect anybody with knowledge to help me now, right.

As M would say, friendship is bullshit.

You were well brainwashed, my friend.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 12:24:04 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Steven, I still can't figure out what you want!
Message:
Please clarify what 'help' you would like. Otherwise it's really hard to respond to your posts, because I (obviously) cannot read your mind. And I do not understand why you think I am brainwashed - maybe explaining why you think that would help as well.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 13:30:23 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Katie
Subject: Steven, I still can't figure out what you want!
Message:
Some logical responses to the first message in this string would be:

Call the Malibu, CA or relevant police and IRS.
Lobby anybody around in authority to inform them of the situation and have laws changed and instituted as necessary.
Anything else you can think of.

There's power in numbers.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 13:35:38 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Steven, I still can't figure out what you want!
Message:
One more piece of advice would be to use one's real full name to show the evil ones that we are not afraid of evil.
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:42:53 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: reprise:and netprivacy is individual choice
Message:
and the net is as safe as a playpen. sure.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:18:20 (GMT)
From: Steven
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Steven, I still can't figure out what you want!
Message:
One more thing that would please me is if everyone around here posted email at maharji.org telling the Perfect Miser to 'Go To Hell'. Real names and email addresses would be the best but aliases would be fine too.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:48:20 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steven
Subject: oh-aliases are ok now! but they werent b4!
Message:
(caustically) thanks ever so much for the permission.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:02:52 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Steven
Subject: Steven, I still can't figure out what you want!
Message:
Steven:

I honestly think people would be better advised to spend their time and resources promoting the prosecution of genuine war criminals, than to go after M. I don't put much faith in dramatic events to actually change things very much. While they might make you feel better for the moment the effect tends to blow over rather quickly. The persistent 'drip drip' of this alternative perspective on Maharaji is where the real drama lies, and eventually that particular molehill will crumble. There are lots more. Take your time and conserve your energy. As the saying goes: 'Living well is the best revenge.' If not 100% accurate, then at least it makes the burdens lighter.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:34:33 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott, war criminals are war criminals, and
Message:
... personally, I haven't met any.

I have however, met (briefly, though not briefly enough) one particularly nausea-inducing ex-guru, whose crime may not be as bloody nor as shocking as those war criminals you mention, but is nonetheless (IMO) still a crime.

If there was a con-artist operating in your neighbourhood, wouldn't you take whatever steps were necessary to bring him/her to justice?

Or at least warn your neighbours?

Steve appears to be at that painful awakening stage - knowing that he has indeed, been the target of a scam. Maybe some of us older exes have forgotten just how shaming that can feel, and how furious the feelings that can follow are.

Anger needs expression and channeling into action. There may be many more like the mighty Quint (the moniker OK with you Steve?) who'll be appearing at this Forum as the steady erosion of the Maha's credibility continues.

I think we need to be able to empathise with that raw passion and (yes) hatred that are bound to erupt in many of those who suddenly realise that they've given their trust to a man unworthy of that trust.

A bit of leeway in your own attitude, perhaps?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:54:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steven
Subject: Good one, Steve -- 'The Perfect MISER' ha ha (nt)
Message:
ffff
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:05:07 (GMT)
From: admirer
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: janice is as good as ever
Message:
Jim-just wanted to tell you that your girl Janice Wilson is back on expressions with a new one,as good as anything she's done before...Oct.15
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:07:18 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: admirer
Subject: Do it yourself!
Message:
Anyone can cut and paste from ELK Expressions. Just think of a snappy title for the thread: 'Oh Lardy One teach me to disembowel myself in the correct order' - or something..

Why not give us your take, admirer?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 06:11:37 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: admirer
Subject: Admirer-Janice Wilson
Message:
Why not give Jim a call? If it's not in the archives yet, Jim's number is already posted under Steven's posts somewhere. You could still remain anonymous but would get to actually talk to him.

Go for it, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 04:39:30 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Don't Hold Me Back
Message:
I'm pissed and I'm not holding back.

Curse Maharaji and the parents that produced him.

Curse the people who helped him get and stay where he is.

Curse me for giving him money.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:00:54 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Don't Hold Me Back
Message:
Yeah, fuck him. I'm not worried about the money I gave him. That's just a drop in the ocean. I've lost more in business through my own mistakes.

What gets me is Maharaji's false insistance that people need him and have to follow his dreary path. He keeps people emotionally dependent on him and they piss their lives away. That's very damaging.

I tried suicide once. But I didn't like it. Life's a bitch but what the hell. There's always some poor bastard who's worse off.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:17:04 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Do
Message:
>Life's a bitch but what the hell. There's always some poor bastard who's worse off.

Life has tough times and also great moments.
There are over a billion worse off than the people posting on this forum.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 04:42:53 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Don't Hold Me Back
Message:
And curse him and his assistants infinitely for brainwashing me into giving him money.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 04:45:50 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Don't Hold Me Back
Message:
Is there anyone out there in God's name who can at least prevent him from ever re-entering the United States?
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 04:58:09 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Don't Hold Me Back
Message:
What kind of barbaric country do you citizens of the United States live in that has no laws against a man who drove me to four very major psychotic breakdowns and ten suicide attempts?
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:24:46 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Don't Hold Me Back
Message:
Steven:

Go for a bike ride. Seriously.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:39:15 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Steven - your concerns, I think
Message:
Hi Steven -
As far as I can understand them, your concerns are the following:

.Is there anyone out there in God's name who can at least prevent M from ever re-entering the United States?

I'm pretty pragmatic, so you might not like this answer! Just warning you. I would say NO - he is a naturalized American citizen, married to an American for 26 years, with four kids that are American citizens.

You also asked: What kind of barbaric country do you citizens of the United States live in that has no laws against a man who drove me to four very major psychotic breakdowns and ten suicide attempts?

I'll skip the part about the US being a barbaric country (in some ways it is, in some ways it isn't.) If you can prove that Maharaji DIRECTLY drove you to these breakdowns and suicide attempts by personally harassing you or personally stalking you or whatever, you might have a case against him. I doubt that this is the case, and I think that what happened to you probably has happened to a lot of other people - in fact, several of them post on this forum.

There are laws against all kinds of things in the US, but sometimes it is quite personally damaging to try to get revenge or justice against someone who has harmed you by using these laws. My whole family was involved in a medical malpractice case against two doctors who basically killed my father by refusing him treatment (specifically, by refusing to do a tracheotomy while he was IN the hospital.) We sued and won, but it was an awful experience all the way and wasn't worth it. I wouldn't do it again - it took three years, the doctors in question are still practicing medicine, and the people in my family who were the most upset and angry about the incident do not feel that much better.

It is scary to me hear people talk about repeated suicide attempts - and you will also scare a lot of people on this forum by doing so. Many, many, of us have relatives and friends (sometimes premie friends) who killed themselves. If you feel suicidal NOW, call a suicide prevention hot-line or go to see a therapist as soon as you can. PLEASE! We are not therapists here, although we can be supportive :).

I also want to emphasize that if you commit suicide because your involvement with Maharaji drove you to it, you are letting him win. You will hurt people who care about you, but you won't hurt Maharaji.

I think you are making Maharaji FAR more important in your life than he really is. He SEEMS large to those of us who were involved with him, but in reality he is very small. Hardly anyone even knows who he is. Don't let him control your life anymore - it is NOT worth it! It is time to take care of YOURSELF for a change. As Joe always says 'Living well is the best revenge' - and it's true!

I do not know if this will make you feel any better, but participating in this forum or website and telling the story of your personal involvement with Maharaji on-line can help both you and other people. I think that this website and the other anti-Maharaji websites on line are absolutely the MOST damaging thing that Maharaji has ever had to deal with. I think they have really damaged his credibility and ability to recruit new premies in the West. And this website and forum were started by three or four people who wanted to tell the truth about their experiences in public, and who wanted to reach out to other ex-premies!

I think it's healthy to express your anger towards Maharaji on here - and like Janet and Carol have said, expressing anger is part of a process that helps you get your life back. Another thing you could do is try and write down your Journey entry for the site, or at least start telling your personal story on this forum - as you have started to do tonight. I think this will help you AND other people at the same time.

I really hope you are OK, Steven.

Take care -
Katie
(my real name!)

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:02:41 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: BS
Message:
>What kind of barbaric country do you citizens of the United States live in ...

It may be true that you have problems. And you should certainly have them attended to and hopefully you will do well. To rant and blame is out of control in this case.

I, as a citizen of the US certainly don't want somebody of your present caliber dictating policy. You have your opinion, but that is hopefully where it will end. Or I may become a ranter just like you if people like you have your way. I don't share your views or plan for life.
Live your life. Whats your problem these days. You still have potential. Don't spend your last days as a jerk.

X

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 06:33:07 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: That's some heavy shit
Message:
Steven, we all go thru hard times but actually trying to 'off' yourself well, listen, that's gets my attention. To try it more than once really gets my attention.

I know there has been alot of talk here on this forum about suicide. In the past tense that is. In the past, people we knew.

The fact is about 1% or one out of a hundred people actually kill themselves. Once someone tries it they are more than 80%!!!! likely to try it again. In other words, the underlying depression/whatever was not effectively diagnosed or treated.

Your post has totally set up my alarm system! I do not, in one second, think that this forum is the place for you to spend any significant amount of time! This forum is so far from therapeutic that's it's like trying to go snow boarding in Cuba! I think that you should advise your Doctor/Psychologist/whomever is seeing over you to visit this place before you come here again!

Please be careful, Steven. How about coming here reading the forum ONLY with a friend by your side? I am truly worried.

Freaked out, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:58:40 (GMT)
From: one who cares
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Don't Hold Me Back
Message:
Calm down. How many of you are there now? I hope you are kind of joking here. I am, hoping you take it well...Are you OK?
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:23:20 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: one who cares
Subject: he's not joking, and dont hold him back--
Message:
what he is vomiting up is a normal part of reclaiming one's self. rage is reassertion of one's validity. he has to feel this. it's his right.depression and suicides are rage turned in at oneself, helpless. rage turned out at its true target is recovery in progress. it is the core 'I AM' exploding back out into the world and notifying the world that it will not be fucked with, ever again.
I'm with you, Steve. Take your power back.breathe in your clarity. Your mind knew the truth all along. Now you know it too.
excellent book for this time of your recovery:“the Dance of Anger”. recovery literature section where the codependency books are.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:32:50 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?)
Message:
I have to admit getting a little frightened by strong passion and anger wherever directed. I witnessed my dad attempt suicide, and it is not funny at all. I made a bad joke as *one who cares*, but I really do care, I was just a bit scared to get too close.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:44:53 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?)
Message:
Fuck you all with your rationalizations.

Not one of you addressed my concerns directly.

Fuck you chickenshits too scared of nothing to even post your real names.

I've just lost faith in
America.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:04:40 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: hey--! this IS my real name. and what did u want?
Message:
we can stay up all night if you need us, steve. i slept all day so I'm good to go.

seriously, steve--what were you wanting/hoping to see from us,as an answer back? make it known, so we can jump in!

you ask what kind of country would let this happen? you say you just lost faith in america? you wonder why can't he be stopped?

he can be, if you think he can, steve.

hell-I have reported him to America's Most Wanted. I am working on taking this stuff to the FBI los angeles office. i can get over there in one busride and i think malibu is in their jurisdiction. You wrote the White House.

yeah, it's frustrating. yes, it doesnt all happen instantly. personally, I fantasize a sniper with an expert aim, but that's just me. It wouldn't help all those people like us who still would have to go through the growth out.

in your rage, you are hitting people closest to you who are on your side. aim your anger better!

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:14:43 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Well said, Janet (Geesh, I agree with you alot!)
Message:
I am up because I'm not tired, not because I slept all day! I have 'energy swings' periodically and tend to post more when I go from lowest to highest energy over a period of a week or two! I should really go to bed. If Steve is not in any danger, I'll try to think about going to bed, .....soon,...... maybe.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:21:19 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: i'm going to astronet after here-chatroom???
Message:
i stay up all night as a habit. when theres nothing going on over here in the wee hours, I go over to talkcity and hang out in their chatroom called astronet. if youre awake and no one else is up, we can go there and yap in real time.www.talkcity.com
port 7003
astronet
no ops or password to enter.
on a pc, you will have to come in the door for guests or download talkcity pIRCh. read the front page and look for firstimers. you do not need to sign up as a member.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:27:17 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I'll see if I can follow directions! m-t
Message:
empty
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:54:27 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: Jai_Choix@webtv.net
To: Carol
Subject: e-mail me if you have problems connecting
Message:
i may be here a while. if i'm not there, email me and let me know--or come back here and start a new thread to flag me.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:03:28 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?)
Message:
It is so easy to go thru life blaming someone else. If not M, then people blame their parents, their mother, their father, their upbringing ... we all want to blame someone else.

If you have indeed gone through so much torment you must have been in some kind of therapy or counselling at some point. Didn't you ever come to the conclusion that you have to put down your anger and forgive? Forgive the ones you see for having hurt you and forgive yourself for having been so stoopid for putting yourself in that position.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:15:55 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: not now eric.too soon. no stuffing it.
Message:
when i was in my high rage period, people telling me to forgive only stoked my rage higher. forgiveness, at that point, as advice, hits you like being told to condone the wrong and remain actionless. it is morally castrating.

no. steve does not need to be castrated yet again, now.he has found his power and he needs to use it. he needs to find out what to do with it.

anger is destructive if turned inward or crippled. healthy anger turns outward, and aims its intelligence creatively and proactively, at what can be done, to make what is wrong, right.

Bradshaw likes to say that e-motion is energy in motion, and it is our right to display and act upon it, to assert our right to be here, exactly the way we feel we should be.

forgiveness comes a loooooong way down the road from that point. if our needs are not being met, it can't even be brought up. forgiveness can be enacted much later, when we have gotten back enough of ourselves to be able to see what else is in the landscape.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:52:23 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Great post, Janet, I'll say it again ...
Message:
... great post.

This Eric character obviously hasn't been anywhere near the space that Steve's in at the moment, but your post rang a very loud bell for me.

Trouble is, that very expression of anger can get you in trouble with the psychiatric profession, some of whom (at least in the UK) are too damn willing to use tranquillisers to make the 'patient' more docile. The anger aborts and all manner of psychological and psychic fuck-ups ensue. (I speak from experience).

Steve is being given free rein to express himself here, but at the end of the day, tapping at a qwerty keyboard is just not the same as yelling your anger out into the universe. Trouble is, when the yelling starts, the white coats start appearing.

If Steve can find a safe place to express all that rage, I'm sure he'll benefit. Hope he finds that space.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:08:24 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Everything in it's own time
Message:
I agree that forgiveness is important to healing, but healing cannot take place until you are out of denial that someone has harmed you, then anger usually would follow.

You, I believe, find it convenient to ask him to forgive so that he stops expressing anger towrd M who you still believe in. Am I right?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:29:11 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Forgiveness
Message:
No I would advise him to forgive and move on so he can hopefully salvage some of his life.

Look, I was there too. Not in anger towards M but in this drama we have all participated in to some extent in being involved with DLM/EV and the whole group culture that surrounds the mystique of him and K.

But, I will say it again, Knowledge, of itself. With all the trappings stripped away. The actual experience, feeling, growth of understanding that comes from diligently practicing those techniques stands on its own. It has only benefited me in my life and I have only ever hugely enjoyed M's company.

This does not mean I do not have sympathy for Steve. But hey, nervous breakdowns, suicides. He should definitely forgive and forget and move on

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:48:55 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Excuse me?
Message:
Eric: ... nervous breakdowns, suicides. He should definitely forgive and forget and move on ...

Are you saying such troubles are caused by (what you see as) a failure to forgive and forget? That a conscious adjustment of attitude will just turn off Steve's torment?

Although I haven't read everything Steve's written here, it seems clear to me that he has recently tumbled out of the Cult after a long period. When a person realises they have been deceived they need time to work out how the sting worked; how the sharks operated; how the marks were worked on and worked over. And the betrayals of Rawat work on a deep and personal level.

Should Steve at any time want to put aside this matter, he can do so in the calm certainty that many of us will cheerfully hate and rage on, as it were, on his behalf.

We're only human, after all.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 22:02:09 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Steve's behavior is completely inappropriate here
Message:
He has no business posting that here -- at all. That he doesn't know it -- more's the pity. That some people here encourage it -- even more's the pity.

I don't know who disgusts me more -- people who threaten suicide online, or those who react to it. Both need to ask Pat Sajak for a vowel.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:58:17 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: My name is Tonette Beckwith
Message:
Why are you so angry? Never mind, we all get like that. Personally, I think at times anger can be beneficial.

My e-mail is : netguest42@yahoo.com.

Can't give my phone as the children are asleep.

Please don't take offense by my 'rationalizations' Your concerns? Aren't we all in the same boat?

Sincerely, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:55:46 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?)
Message:
What do you mean, 'keep him from returning to the US'? He has citizenship by marriage, right? It isn't Amerika's fault. Nor individual Americans: all we can do is cast our votes for poor choices of candidates who are likely to choose Supreme Court judges that effect all of us and the future in ways we can't control!

Apparently he has smart lawyers and a well-covered butt, as well.

Is that a better answer?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:52:43 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?)
Message:
I've seen only two things in this whole string of responses that made any sense:

I'll see if I can follow directions.
My name is Tonette Beckwith.

Unfortunately the brain damage is not limited to visitors of the www.enjoyinglife.com types.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:01:54 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?)
Message:
Just as a footnote, in 20 weeks total in psychiatric wards since receiving special k, three people with k visited me and two of them came once to give me shit for being sick.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:04:51 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?)
Message:
Make that four people. The fourth was a roommate who came to settle some bills.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:09:03 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?)
Message:
Make that five people.

The fifth was premie doctor Steve Ayre who picked me up off the floor and come to make sure the hospital was giving me vegetarian meals.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:15:35 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Very well said.(Steve we're still up. Are you?)
Message:
95% of the people posting on this board need priest to perform exorcisms and English teachers.

I know all of you are saying its the other guy. Tough luck.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 13:04:11 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: start with the man in the mirror
Message:
“95% of the people posting on this board need priest to perform exorcisms and English teachers.”
how does one get priest to perform an english teacher??
are you referring to judas priest, the rock band? is there a song in their repertoire called'an english teacher' or 'English teachers”?
or perhaps they have a piece called “exorcisms and English teachers’”?
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 13:22:49 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: janet
Subject: start with the man in the mirror
Message:
I just slept two hours, which seems to be my quota for the night.

I don't know judas priest. I have been a BIG fan of AC/DC over the past year but now am more into Bon Jovi and The Cult. My three favorite songs of these groups are You Shook Me All Night Long, It's My Life and She Sells Sanctuary.

Sorry about the spelling mistakes. I only do that when I'm excited. The message should have read:

95% of the people posting on this board need priests to perform exorcisms and English teachers.

I know all of you are saying it's the other guy. Tough luck.

I pretty much stand by what I said in that one, especially about the English teachers. The priest part was originally going to be brain surgeons. Psychiatrists would probably be more to the point but I was pretty pissed off and therefore facetious. Whether the 95% are beyond hope or not is hard to say objectively, but I still think around that percentage is in bad shape.

Take a look at the enjoyinglife.org expressions section for example. Do you think there's any hope for those people? All I'm saying is that most of the people here aren't in much better shape. It's very very sad but unfortunately true.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:59:18 (GMT)
From: steve of vancouver
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Steven Quint
Subject: start with the man in the mirror
Message:
Upon the third reading, I'm starting to understand your message.

I'm not a very patient person. I find time to be incredibly precious and like writing that is clear enough to be understood immediately.

Thanks,

Steven Of Canada

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:43:13 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: start with the man in the mirror
Message:
let me dissect your post:
“I just slept two hours, which seems to be my quota for the night.”
it shows. get yourself solidly together before you come in here going postal on us. we arent the problem here. losing it hurts your credibility. the walls have ears.

“I don't know judas priest. I have been a BIG fan of AC/DC over the past year but now am more into Bon Jovi and The Cult. My three favorite songs of these groups are You Shook Me All Night Long, It's My Life and She Sells Sanctuary.”

so sorry to pop your high hopes, but my post wasnt about rock bands and fanclubs. i'm 48. those groups are bubblegum teen angst to me. inarticulate zitfaced kids with hair in their faces, clothes too big for them, vapid vocabularies and skateboards. way behind me on the scale of experience and wisdom.

“Sorry about the spelling mistakes. I only do that when I'm excited. The message should have read:95% of the people posting on this board need priests to perform exorcisms and English teachers.”

correction: what it should have read, was“In my opinion, 95% of the people posting on this board need English teachers; and priests, to perform exorcisms”.or alternately--
“In my opinion,95% of the people posting on this board need Priests, to perform exorcisms; and English teachers”

This is precisely why I responded by advising you to start with the man in the mirror. Because your mangled syntax and grammer, along with your tortured outbursts, seemed to indicate that if anyone posting here tonight needed both of those badly, it would be you, first.

“Take a look at the enjoyinglife.org expressions section for example. Do you think there's any hope for those people?”

remember--it's all been edited and censored. they interviewed me once, at the first satellite feed, from Pasadena. what i had to say never showed up on the site. >snort!<...do you wonder why????

Hey--the Third Reich fell. The Iron Curtain fell. Pravda fell. They sell Coca Cola and McDonald's in Red China right now! So don't give up hope. No tyrant lives forever. No Empire lasts forever.Two of Those three didnt last a century. One didnt last a decade.

do you see any Pharoahs ruling today? Any Caesars throwing their weight around? any Emperors holding forth anywhere?

the guy in malibu is a pipsqueak. He didnt earn his money. And he didn't inherit it. It isn't his. The rich will never accept him among them. He's a fake and therefore beneath their notice. He's no one. He's fat. He drinks. He's a smoker. He does drugs. His marriage is a sham, destroyed 20 years ago by his own hand. His name is on nothing. It can all be repossessed in a day. He's utterly bored. He's uneducated. He has nothing of value in life, and one day it's all gonna hit him that he has wasted his entire life and all of his time, trying to make the world his servants, and collecting just so much junk, that can't help him when the end comes, and that he can't take with him when it's all over.

every last one of us, talking here, has gone farther in life, and understood more, and earned more wisdom, than he ever will. And he did'nt teach it to us. We taught it to ourselves.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:18:44 (GMT)
From: Steve Of Montreal And BC
Email: sequint@home.com
To: janet
Subject: start with the man in the mirror
Message:
This message which I posted above should have been posted here. Why am I getting so confused by you? Am I in love or something? Scary thought:

Upon the third reading, I'm starting to understand your message.
I'm not a very patient person. I find time to be incredibly precious and like writing that is clear enough to be understood immediately.

Thanks,

Steven Of Canada

P.S. Maybe I am a patient person. But I've been so fuked over by m the magnificent that I will not be at peace until he's no longer a threat to any life.

Love (might as well go with the flow),

Steve

P.P.S.

It's 4:18 in the morning here. I hope this message goes in the right place in this most confusing thread.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:21:04 (GMT)
From: Steve Of Nirvana
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Janet
Subject: start with the man in the mirror
Message:
fuked above should have been fucked.

sorry for the spelling error.

Steve Of Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:54:50 (GMT)
From: Steven The Compassionate
Email: sequint@home.com
To: janet
Subject: start with the man in the mirror
Message:
Dear Janet:

I'm worried about you.

You don't make much sense in this particular response anyway.

Please don't respond to my messages any more until you've lightened up and gotten some significant psychotherapy.

I still love you anyway,

Steve

P.S. I really wish you'd send me your phone number so I could talk to you. What's the big deal?

I'm also 48 - Virgo - Sept. 19.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:07:02 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Janet
Subject: start with the man in the mirror
Message:
Some other groups and musicians I have enjoyed a lot over the last year include:

The Beatles, The Black Crowes, Bob Dylan, Don Henley, The Eagles, Men Without Hats, Prince, The Spice Girls and Tom Petty And The Heartbreakers.

Some of my favorite songs from these groups are Helter Skelter, Absolutely Sweet Marie, All She Wants To Do Is Dance, Take It Easy, The Safety Dance, Pop Goes The World, 1999, When Doves Cry, Wannabe, and Mary Jane's Last Dance.

I love music with a passion and there are probably hundreds of rock groups I could listen to and enjoy. I have a soft spot for Bob Dylan and The Beatles. I've seen The Beatles in 1964 and bumped into Ringo in Vancouver around 1995. Other concerts I've been to over the years include The Stones, The Who, Janis Joplin, Santana, Pat Benatar (who's very healing, I might add), Steve Miller, Stevie Wonder, Roy Orbison (my first popular music concert when I was 11) and others.

The last concert I saw was Neil Young two weeks ago. He had a wonderful backup group including his wife and sister. The concert was very mellow with mostly lesser known songs except that the last song of the night was Dylan's 'All Along The Watchtower' which was stirring and one of my favorite songs.

It feels good to talk about personal stuff which is why I suggested emailing me your phone number.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:22:56 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Janet and Everyone
Subject: start with the man in the mirror
Message:
Oh yeah, The Red Hot Chili Peppers. Awesome.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:26:54 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home
To: Everyone
Subject: start with the man in the mirror
Message:
Jethro Tull. Seen them twice a long time ago. Their lyrics seem to indicate they knew about or intuited m a long time ago.

Similar with Led Zeppelin and others as well.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:22:30 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Very wells
Message:
>95% of the people posting on this board need priest to perform exorcisms and English teachers.

Exorcisms are passe.
These days you have to spend the extra $$$ for the right kind of ice cream.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 01:45:07 (GMT)
From: bull-shp detector
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: hey shp,why not go back to your original day job?
Message:
hey shp (sanford pass)-

I knew you in miami in the early 80's.

You were running a big time scam then, selling these stupid little 'light saver' gizmos, that could be plugged into light fixtures and supposedly reduce the light bill.

These little gizmos, abut the size of a nickel, would be inserted into a light fixture between the light bulb and the bottom of the fixture.The effect was that the bulb would be dimmed, and therefore use less energy, saving the client money.

A friend of mine bought a bunch of them from you and tried to peddle them to hotels in south florida.

He said that you bought them for a nickel and tried to re-sell them for a dollar. After trying to peddle them for awhile with no success, he saw packages of them at a hardware store, selling 5 for a dollar.

He got run out a few hotels, and had the Better Business Bureau contact him, as it was obvious what a scam it was.

Let's see, after that he started selling imitation expensive sunglasses to college kids on the beach during spring break...were those yours as well?

Shp,why do you post here?
You make no sense and are filled with pseudo self-importance that smacks of the same B.S. as your light saver scam.

What's the similarity?

What you peddle (your drivel and cult-speak), like that of mr. rawat, if applied to one's life, turns them into a rather dim bulb, and takes away from their energy....

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:27:53 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: bull-shp detector
Subject: Hey bsd, why are you hiding who you are?
Message:
I knew you in miami in the early 80's. -bsd

Then why are you so cowardly as to hide behind a fake name? -shp

You were running a big time scam then, selling these stupid little 'light saver' gizmos, that could be plugged into light fixtures and supposedly reduce the light bill. -bsd

I was 'running' nothing. I was a paid employee of a company, trying to make an honest right livlihood. The 'stupid little lite-saver gizmos' were not really a new invention, but were well-known to industry since the '50's as a viable way to save electricity and bulb changes. The technology was being made available for public consumption as many things are nowdays. -shp
These little gizmos, abut the size of a nickel, would be inserted into a light fixture between the light bulb and the bottom of the fixture. The effect was that the bulb would be dimmed, and therefore use less energy, saving the client money. -bsd

You are only partially right. Fact is, the lite-saver had an adhesive that would stick to the base of the bulb before insertion into the socket. The effect is that the lite-saver, being a solid-state half wave rectifier, would convert the electricity from AC to DC coming into the bulb, thus greatly reducing the vibration of the lightbulb filament and extending the life of the bulb many times over. The whole lightbulb industry is based on planned obsolesence which keeps them in business to the tune of about 4 billion lightbulbs a year. We are getting ripped off, in other words. The lite-saver was a means of saving time, energy and money. Clients were advised to use a higher wattage bulb than normal to compensate for the dimming effect of going from AC to DC current, which would compensate and give equal lighting. -shp

A friend of mine bought a bunch of them from you and tried to peddle them to hotels in south florida. -bsd

I tried to to the same. shp

He said that you bought them for a nickel and tried to re-sell them for a dollar. After trying to peddle them for awhile with no success, he saw packages of them at a hardware store, selling 5 for a dollar. -bsd

I don't remember the exact numbers, but the nickel-dollar thing is definitely bullshit. And as all products go, prices were adjusted as time went by and it got into stores. I just worked for the guy who owned the company. I had no control over pricing or anything like that.
The owner of the company turned out to be a real prick. He ripped off my accounts that I had generated, lied to employees and customers, was a religious hypocrite who prayed at a certain time in his office unless there was a high-roller waiting to see him, sold 'exclusive territories' to more than one person in distant places - one guy showed up in the office allegedly with a gun, who had ridden a bus all the way from Minnesota or Canada or somewhere like that, to settle up with the guy - and many other things that fly-by-night Miami 'businessmen' were famous for at the time. I was taken in by the man, the product (which really did work and save time, money and energy to change bulbs in large places especially). I quit when this all became clear to me and went my way, wiser for the experience and more on my guard about shitty businessmen. -shp

He got run out a few hotels, and had the Better Bueau contact him, as it was obvious what a scam it was. -bsd

Same thing happened to me, which was a major contributing factor to why I left. Thing is, the lite-saver worked. The scam was how the guy ran his company, which gave the product and the employees a bad name. Furthermore, many of the old hotels had old dry bad wiring, lamps and fixtures the same, and any change whatsoever to the system would cause problems. This was not the fault of the lite-saver. And don't tell me you never had a shitty boss. -shp

Let's see, after that he started selling imitation expensive sunglasses to college kids on the beach during spring break...were those yours as well? -bsd

No, I never got into sunglasses, but I am amused at your snooty
attitude towards me or anyone who may have sold inexpensive sunglasses to college kids on the beach in Florida. As if that is not a worthy livlihood or something. -shp

Shp,why do you post here? You make no sense and are filled with pseudo self-importance that smacks of the same B.S. as your light saver scam. -bsd

BSD, I don't have to tell you why I do anything. Suffice it to say that nobody else is behind my posts but me. I may not make sense to you, but then again, you don't even tell who you really are, so I wouldn't be critical of anything or anybody if I were you, oh cowardly shadow dweller. Come out in the open. -shp

What you peddle (your drivel and cult-speak), like that of mr. rawat, if applied to one's life, turns them into a rather dim bulb, and takes away from their energy.... -bsd

Your analogy is wrong and stupid, your hiding behind a pseudonym is immature and silly, and your attempt to discredit me is just pure hogwash. Anyone who eats your post without thinking about what I have said deserves whatever new convolution their brain has to fold into to accomodate it. -shp

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:30:15 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: bsd
Subject: Where's bsd and who let the dogs out?
Message:
so bsd,

Who are ya? Why are ya hiding your identity? Easier to create mob hysteria and spread lies under cover of darkness and anonymity, ain't it? Just sitting back while the dogs do their thing? This place operates hellishly. Bodhisattva practice.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:04:43 (GMT)
From: miami vice
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: I,too,got ripped by shp
Message:
Shp-your association with the scoundrel boss you described tells me something about you.

Why did you stay with someone so long who was so obviously a thief,manipulator,liar etc....?

Couldn't you have gotten a new job and left the tyrannical dishonest boss?
Or were you that unaware that you couldn't see it as it was happening?

A friend of mine bought tons of those stupid light saver things from you (there was some sort of minimum you had to purchase), and like the other poster and you, couldn't peddle them.(He was trying to make some extra money while working at deca and supporting a family)

How many premies did you rip off that way?
A hundred bucks here, a hundred bucks there....
Probably paid for a few festival trips for you...as long as you didn't rip any one person off too much, they wouldn't come after you, right?

You're kinda like the big m,aren't you?
A big sales pitch,your product never really delivers, and then when the dissatisfied customer complains, you deny you ever made the claim...right?

You know what they say about birds of a feather,shp...

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:11:06 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: miami vice
Subject: Miami lice
Message:
You are full of shit and just another asshole jumping on the current pile-up on me using lies and twisting what did happen. Being a premie here with partial and inaccurate information flying out of your mouth and others about my past is like being a deer in hunting season wandering into a hunter's campsite. I know there is no way to stop it, so I am not even going to try. Bang on, freak. You'll get tired after a while. Lies don't generate energy. Anyone who has any self-respect will not believe you at your word without hearing both sides anyway. And anyone who does believe your shit is not worth knowing.

You tell me about my scoundrel boss and then you say you worked for someone who you considered a scoundrel too. I cut loose of my scoundrel boss and you cut loose of who you say was yours. We had a common experience, so what makes me worse than you? Why didn't you cut loose sooner, freak? Gee, that tells me something about you...

I never ripped anyone off. And if you still think so, you can kiss my ass. And that goes for anyone else too.

Have a great weekend! 8>)
shp

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:55:53 (GMT)
From: miami vice
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp-it's not nice to call vice lice.Vice please!!
Message:
Shp-so we both worked for a scoundrel boss, huh?

You must be referring to my employment by maharaji at deca.

So is the big m a scoundrel?

As far as 'piling on'....why don't you just leave?

It's that simple.

If you're not here, how can we 'pile on'?

Think about it-you post here and get dissed. Why do you continue to stick around? You must love the attention, even though most of it is negative....

'Vice', not 'lice'

(after all, i call you shp, not shit, or something like that)

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:05:36 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: miami vice
Subject: shp-it's not nice to call vice lice.Vice please!!
Message:
Shp-so we both worked for a scoundrel boss, huh? -mv

Re-read my words. -shp

You must be referring to my employment by maharaji at deca.
So is the big m a scoundrel? -mv

Re-read my words. -shp

As far as 'piling on'....why don't you just leave? -mv

Why don't you jut stop piling on...and come out of the closet and identitfy yourself. Yeah, you'd just love it if I disappeared, wouldn't you? What kind of intrigue does your mind torment you with so bad that you can't post in your real identity? Really, come to think about it, it seems absurd to argue with folks who don't even step up and say who they really are.

It's that simple. -mv

Yeah, mv, it is. -shp

If you're not here, how can we 'pile on'? -mv

And if you stopped piling on, we'd have a chance at a more mature communication. -shp

Think about it-you post here and get dissed. Why do you continue to stick around? You must love the attention, even though most of it is negative.... -mv

You think you and Jim and a few others are the only ones here?
Can you say 'Egocentric'? Just because a handful of rowdies try to run me out I should do so? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

'Vice', not 'lice' -mv

Whatever. -shp

(after all, i call you shp, not shit, or something like that)-mv

Nothing so obvious nor in so many words. Difference between me and you is that you will beat around the bush and I will tell you to your face, or as close as I can get to it here. -shp

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:59:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Don't worry, shp, we know who you are
Message:
Your analogy is wrong and stupid, your hiding behind a pseudonym is immature and silly, and your attempt to discredit me is just pure hogwash.

Relax, shp, there's no way in the world we'd let this guy discredit you. I mean, how could he do that anyway? You're shp. We all know that. And we all know what you stand for. The 'wittow wittow wuns', right?

But don't you just hate it when people take a shot at your 'profession'? Yeah, it really sucks, doesn't it? There you are, trying to make a living, and some guy who barely know syou, maybe doesn't even know you at all, calls you slimy or unethical just because of the work you do?

Don't you just fucking hate that, shppie??

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:19:51 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Gee, I wonder what you are referring to.....?
Message:
Cheap shot to aggrandize your pitiful self.

My idealism and efforts to make a right livlihood and running into shithead businessmen along the way are no comparison to what you have most probably witnessed and participated in behind closed doors in your profession on a frequent basis. You are a cynical attorney and I am an idealistic entrepreneur. Do the math. And you can take your shoes off if you need to count on your toes to figure it out.

A seasoned con man calls a victim of a con man corrupt.
Give me a break.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:33:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: That is a disgusting answer, shp
Message:
Fact is, shhpie,

You don't know of a single thing I've ever done as a lawyer, do you? Yet you're willing to try, hilariously unsuccessfully, of course, to pillory me on account of my work.

But when you get the same treatment you cry like a baby.

You ARE a baby, shp. A big, whiny baby.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:53:13 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Some of my best friends are lawyers.
Message:
You don't know of a single thing I've ever done as a lawyer, do you? Yet you're willing to try, hilariously unsuccessfully, of course, to pillory me on account of my work. -jh

Well, Jim, unless you are schizo you reveal much of who you are right here. 'AS A LAWYER...'??? How many people are you?
As if you are only an asshole here, right? Is that what you expect me to believe? Your pattern of how you treat me tells me all I need to know about your lawyering.

I base my opinion of you on my experience with you, not if you are an ex or not; whereas, you base what you say about me on my being a premie. -shp

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:47:22 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: There's a little good in the worst of us...
Message:
OK, maybe you rescued a cat out of a tree once and helped an old lady across the street and gave a blind man a quarter...
so here's your quarter back...go to hell.
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:15:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: That's SOOOO pathetic, shp!
Message:
Isn't that the VERY joke I made about you to Susan just a few weeks ago?

God, shp, this must be so embarrassing for you. Can't even come up with an honst insult on your own. Pity.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:01:12 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: We both heard it from Maharaji.
Message:
You really want to be the Master.
You want everyone to respect and believe and obey you.
You have something green stuck in your teeth.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 03:14:33 (GMT)
From: Hey, detector.....
Email: None
To: bull-shp detector
Subject: SHP is out of his mind.....
Message:
To be free it takes to be a human being...I wasn't free.

He can't wither: He is a premie.

I do. I know you do too.

good

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:56:40 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Sending A Greeting Card To The King Of Aliens
Message:
From the cutting edge of evolution:

http://www.enjoyinglife.org/enjoylife/knowledge.nsf/frame_sets/English_Site_etimes

When in Rome...

'When in Rome...' you are supposed to do as the Romans do. Or so the saying goes. Amusingly Maharaji delivered a message at odds with the normal advice given to visitors to the so-called Eternal City.

At the one-day event on 30 September, his advice was not to imitate. 'Don't be an alien,' was in fact what he said. The point being that so many people live without a sense of purpose or fulfillment, alienated from happiness and meaning in their lives.

How about getting together and sending the alien a 'Go Back Where You Came From' card?

Steve

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:28:53 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: forum administrator
Subject: server is f'g up my html
Message:
i am laboriously punctuating, paragraphing, using my break tags and the standard cues in my text to designate hyper references. i am checking my work between screens to see that my post is parsing the way i want it to look. apparently the server is f'g up. what i see in my previews is not what is coming out in the final postings. i am gettng earlier edits of my text with the errors still in them. the server is dropping my html tagging out of the final posts. paragraphing is utterly dissappearing. iamgetting completelyrunonsentenceslikethisaftercomposinglists.

WTF???

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:46:31 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Willow
Message:
Wonder if this is the Willow I remember?
Willow
Coach
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 11:34:04 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Willow
Message:
Willow wrote:
Laughing Willow's lifelong holy friends are Jesus and Maharaji. Jesus the gentle shepherd and lover of broken
humanity... alive in his very real yet invisible form of the Holy Spirit and in his words. Maharaji,living now in the flesh...funny and compassionate, revealer of inner peace, inspirer of happiness. Love, the greatest teacher, is always with us. Life goes by quickly.Maraji,living now in the flesh...funny and compassionate, revealer of inner peace, inspirer of happiness. Love, the greatest teacher, is always with us. Etc

On this this webpage, Willow exemplifies the extent to which people desperately want to feel that their beliefs amount to knowledge of Truth and will stubbornly persist to ignore any evidence that contradicts this.

My experience is that Maharaji has a lot to learn about Love and Compassion.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:41:44 (GMT)
From: Philip Huku
Email: phuku@usa.com
To: Coach
Subject: Willow
Message:
Dont think so, I dont remember Willow as a singer, plus she is still up there in the high ranks so would not mix the names of past masters etc. Last heard of living in Paris
Philip
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:03:26 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Philip Huku
Subject: Willow
Message:
Yeah, thought so.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:25:27 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: What a Heart
Message:
Is this called Fishing???
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:18:25 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: What a Heart
Message:
Really! Willow's still in?

Jesus!

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:04:44 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: What a Heart
Message:
I meant the page not the person
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:42:00 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: TRY THESE! NOT TO BE PASSED UP!
Message:
ZDNET today SITES ON THE INTERNET WHERE YOU CAN POWER -BITCH AND GET THE RESULTS YOU ALWAYS CRAVED. LET'S GIVE EM ALL WE GOT--ELAN VITAL, MAHARAJI DOT ORG, E.L.K., VISIONS INTERNATIONAL....
I SAY WE GO FOR A CLUSTER MAUL.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:00:10 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Working link
Message:
ZDNET today
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:13:32 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dirt, Boats, Airplanes, Watches, Cars.......
Message:
...can't that fat cat think of any NEW analogies?? It's like...:

Goomraji:

'Well, ummm......here we are again, dear premies, and I'd like to talk to you about......ummm.....dirt. (Looks at his watch) Dirt is what makes plants grow and.......for me.......for you.......you know......it's exactly like......knowledge. Just yesterday I was watching my friends at the residence.....you know......planting grass......in dirt.....you know.....I saw them outside my recording studio in the......you know......dirt. I realized then, what's a seed without the dirt.......you know? (Long pause) It's like, the seed isn't the mango tree......you know? A blade of grass begins with that tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, seed. (Gestures with his thumb and forefinger up to his eye level) A grass seed is like a speck of dust.........Can you eat that seed. Of course, anyone can eat seeds, but it's like...you know......you won't taste the mango. You won't feel the lushness of that lawn under your bare feet.....in a mansion........on the bluff.......of the gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous Pacific ocean.

'A mango tree isn't a watch or a boat either. It's like when you come into this life.......you know.......we.....everyone......it's like......being born. (Very loudly): We must be grateful for that life, that seed that is within inside of us. It's like, if I didn't have this watch, I couldn't tell time........(long pause).........I couldn't get my Gulfstream to my destination......you know? You just have to have that watch on your wrist to be able to tell time. But how are we to get to our REAL destination.............?

'We can't!!! If we don't have at least a couple of Jaguars, Mercedes...... whatever. My point is, premies, knowledge is the answer to all these questions. Listening to the master of knowledge, is like being on a boat........you know?

'It's like........YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CAPTAIN.........a navigator to help you reach that destination.........it's like I have this very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, VERY close friend who just purchased this enormous yacht. He told me it was very expensive and it's 106 feet long........that yacht, that boat, you know? It was big........It impressed me........He invited me onto that yacht........and I said WOW! I was grateful........because, you know premies, that yacht reminded me of Goomraji's boat............BUT! It's not the material things that bring you true wealth in this world.......you know? Give them to ME! Nothing in this whole, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide, wide world.......and....you know.......I travel a lot......in my Gulfstream.........I've seen it.........this world is very, very, very, very, very big. (Emphatically)....But unless you've surrendered EVERYTHING to Goomraji, you will be stuck.......in dirt.

(Looks at watch again) 'So, dear premies, just remember, you have a Master, I had a Master, too. It's like, don't leave this hall thinking you got it all figured out.......you know. 'Cuz you don't. ONLY THE MASTER CAN FULFILL THOSE TRUE DESIRES WITHIN INSIDE OF YOU..........and you must obey the master. Live your life, ENJOY!!! And that master, that Goomraji, that ONE WHO IMPARTS KNOWLEDGE........will fill you up with his knowledge and invite you on his boat, and all you have to do is.......you know........sit back and enjoy the ride.

'Take that boat ride with Goomraji.........fly with him into that place where he will take you........Plant that seed in that dirt......you know? Blessings to all the Premies' (Stands, looks at watch, walks out.)

I think I just made myself sick...::)))
Cynthia


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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 11:13:25 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Dirt, Boats, Airplanes, Watches, Cars.......
Message:
Cynthia, a friend of mine has said she's seen this yacht in Miami at a personal residence. I am going to be in S. Beach next month and will try to get a photo of it, if it is one and the same (I'll know,since I've seen it in Newport recently) I'm sure there is more than one Serenity down there.
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 14:42:19 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: cynthia
Subject: Will be in Newport today....
Message:
Will check out marinas in Newport today. Will let you know what I find out.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:51:59 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Dirt, Boats, Airplanes, Watches, Cars.......
Message:
Just read this and it cracked me up! I even read it to my husband, who saw a few videos and M back in 1990 or so, and thankfully to me now, found them rather empty of meaning and not very appealing. But he still agreed to help fund a small portion of whatever jet was being bought at the time, for me, because of my gratitude.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:28:08 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: That was great
Message:
You're in you got all the right replies. Welcome to the forum.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:04:35 (GMT)
From: Buzz
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Dirt, Boats, Airplanes, Watches, Cars.......
Message:
Hi Cynth,
Loved the thunb and forefinger to eye level gesture.Spot on.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:30:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: You should write premie erotica, Cynthia (nt)
Message:
dddd
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:36:38 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're right....
Message:
I though the same thing after I posted it.....good one, Jim!

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:29:41 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Did you get my message re:
Message:
the whereabouts of the yacht? You can try those places in Newport (also try Goat Island Marina in Newport). But I believe he keeps it down in Ft. Laud. in the winter. Most of the Hoi Polloi keep their yachts at or Bahia Mar, Pier 66. He may have a private residence there or in Miami where he keeps it. I will put the feelers out for it. Also Try Bradford's Boatyard in Ft Laud.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:51:13 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Cynthia
Subject: Gawd, it was like really being there with Him
Message:
Cynthia,

I think that you've been to too many programs.

You've hit the mark with the cadence, the nonsense and the looking at the watch and heading offstage. I was hearing it as if spoken by Him.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:34:19 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I kind of scared myself (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:44:05 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Very good, Cynthia
Message:
There were times that I wasn't sure if it was parody or M actually talking. You've got it DOWN, girl. I bet you even 'did things' to Mili.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:58:36 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: It was supposed to be parady, but that 'ole.....
Message:
brainwashing took over.

As I said, I scared myself because I haven't listened to any of his stuff in quite some time.

I do love parady, and would love to be better at it.

Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:56:25 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: It was supposed to be parady, but that 'ole.....
Message:
I ran into a premie last summer who claimed to be completely out of the trip -- and claimed to be out of it for more than 17 years, actually. Yet when this person spoke about some of it (they were still meditating sometimes and whatnot) it was like being sucked back into the vortex -- I was really surprised, a fairly strong emotional response to being spoken to like that.

This is what convinces me that (unbelievably, seemingly) for all the M perpetrates on us, he's a victim (of Shri Hans) too; and that he himself believes much of his own garbage, from moment to moment (though obviously not all the time, that's why he's an endless suck of forced affirmation from everyone around him).

He was programmed at a very young age, by someone a lot more foreboding than himself. That Shri Hans just looks like No Mercy, incarnate. Endless overpowering abuse.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:51:17 (GMT)
From: Yo! Pick-up the phone.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Joan Apter
Message:
A similar invitation was sent to (Bholie shri satguru dev maharaj ki jay!) Joan Apter. If anyone has a message for her, please post it. She may visit any moment now.

This is what I sent:
Dear Joan,

As you must know by now, your site is listed on the adresses below where ex-premies meet and discuss. Some important PAM have now come-out and I would like to invite you to visit and see if you wouln't like to join us and share information.

http://www.ex-premie.org/forum5/main.cgi

http://www.oz.net/~drek/#where

If you live in America where NTSC video equipment is available, I strongly suggest you put your hands on this document, a PBS report on Millenium available on Amazon.com.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00001OX01/o/qid=968250633/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_v_1_3/102-5741595-6330552

Beside, on the attached film clip, Rawat states he (almost) never said he was 'the messiah'. I'd like your feedback on this since you were partial on the question by stirring the crowd with the 'Ki-jay' routine as far back as India 1972 and Ally-Pally 1973. Lately, accusation of abuse (sexual abuse, pedopiles, rape and, of course, others abuses of financial nature) came out of the woodwork. Some victims say they were confused by the notion of divinity. Some clarification on this may help healing wounds.

I also attached a document updated and sent from time to time to news organizations. Chances are Rawat is bound for front page anytime and tough questions will be asked.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:59:12 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Yo! Pick-up the phone.
Subject: Joan Apter
Message:
good idea. the letter you composed to hersounds a bit vague, and ill- thought- out. i suggest we all write letters of similar nature to joan, in the most professional, sincere style we can muster. Jim is especially good--if he can keep his schoolyard digressions to profanity when aroused, out of it-. one letter from one voice won't do it. remember michael dettmer's journey with us, and his evolution upon reflection, over time.
i think I, myself, would focus on wanting to know what she herself witnessed, and how she really felt when it happened. i think our strong point in approaching any once-upon-a-time premie, is to help them get in touch with what their real inner reactions were, to what they lived thru, and were subjected to, and that, contrasted with what they told themsleves, or what they tried to be, outwardly.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:13:53 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Joan Apter
Message:
Her song, and satsang that followed, at my first program (Portland Oregon June 29, 1972) pulled me in:

The words I have to say,
May well be simple, but they're true
Until you give your love,
There's nothing more that we can do.

Love is the opening door.
Love is what we came here for.
No One can offer you more.
Do you know what I mean?
Have your eyes really seen?

They say it's very hard
To leave behind the life we knew
But there's no other way,
And now it's really up to you...

Chorus
Does some one know that she is not still loving M? She was a model Gopi.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:47:49 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Another OT HPV post
Message:
Hi:

Just received an email from Matt Weaver via the HPV (Human Powered Vehicle) listserve about the 'World's Fastest Bicycle Competition 2000.' A new world record was set at 72.74 mph by Sam Whittingham on the Canadian Varna team, on a bike designed by George Georgiev (Varna). The women's sprint record was also set by Andrea Blaseckie at 54.04 mph on the same team riding a similar Varna.

The most provocative news, however, is this. Matt Weaver decided to dust off and repair a laminar flow bike called the Kyle Edge that he had designed and built back in 1992, rather than repair his more recently designed Virtual Edge or complete his even newer VE2000 design. The older bike suffered from some decay and rust problems that prevented it from really uncorking a high speed run. Even at that he managed to record a speed of 85+ mph during the run up, but then had to gear down and actually coasted through the 'trap' to record a near world record speed of 68+ mph, or 4 mph slower than the Whittingham ride. He has two bikes that are of newer design than this 'Kyle Edge' that may be significantly faster, and given the right conditions, and the right rider (he is about average as a racer, but nowhere near the ability of a Chris Boardman), and possibly tweaking the location of the 'trap' where official speed is recorded, it now seems quite possible that the 100 mph mark may eventually be crossed... using only human muscle power as an engine with no wind or gravity assist.

Bear in mind also that these guys are now operating on shoestring budgets, frequently having to borrow transport vehicles to get the bikes from one place to another, with incessant breakdowns, insufficient practice at spead, etc. So, there are a lot of variables that could be improved, and the 'decimach' or 100 mph speed is really only 15 mph away.

Incidentally, if anyone wants to read Matt's account drop me a line and I'll forward the email. Fascinating stuff.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:34:31 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Scott T.
Subject: Yeah, I'll take some
Message:
Scott T.,

Yeah, way cool. Send me a link.

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