Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 16:44:22 (GMT)
From: Oct 17, 2000 To: Oct 23, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


jondon -:- sounds familiar -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 23:33:02 (GMT)

Jim -:- Hey, Dog, just for you -- a guru doggie bag! -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 21:09:50 (GMT)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Hey, He stole the sermon I gave this morning! nt -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:24:10 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- That's because you're part of the vine, padre -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:30:31 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Here's an interesting one -- Satpal's wife! -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:23:11 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Sorry Jim , just couldn't handle it! (NT) -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:25:03 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- How about this one? -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:48:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Now that's much better. (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:53:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What's better about it? (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:57:24 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Poor old servant -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 00:00:24 (GMT)
__ Steven Quint -:- Hey, Dog, just for you -- a guru doggie bag! -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 22:26:00 (GMT)

Yves -:- I admit I sometimes use nicknames -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:32:17 (GMT)
__ Yhat a dwork! -:- Lucky you FA didn't out you yet -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 15:04:09 (GMT)
__ Ying tong iddle i po -:- Be ashamed, be very ashamed. -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 18:37:04 (GMT)
__ __ Carol -:- Save me from mispropounciation OT -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 06:57:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ying tong iddle i po -:- Yves sounds like Eve, as in Adam (nt) OT -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:11:07 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- In My Humble Opinion -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:46:44 (GMT)
__ Steven Quint -:- Don't Come Here If You Have A Weak Stomach -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:59:59 (GMT)
__ __ Q -:- You don't really need us to have a conversation -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 21:31:51 (GMT)

Salam -:- Internet-Privacy....................ot -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:14:47 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Internet-Privacy....................ot -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 05:42:05 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Internet-Privacy....................ot -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:48:49 (GMT)
__ carol -:- Internet-Privacy....................ot -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:24:21 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- This last post is right... -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:19:09 (GMT)

JTF -:- Mumbojumboism -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 05:33:06 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- Mumbojumboism -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:34:29 (GMT)
__ Lotus Eater -:- Mumbojumboism -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 20:42:54 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Mumbojumbillism -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:17:37 (GMT)
__ __ carol -:- Mumbojumbillism -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:30:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Mumbojumbillism -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:43:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Mumbojumbillism -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 23:34:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- my report from the front... -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 07:26:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- hermeneutics and deconstructionism vs. pragmatism -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 11:50:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- hermeneutics and deconstructionism vs. pragmatism -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:13:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Objection! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 02:33:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- shambling forward at the back ... -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 21:22:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Thankyou Janet! Jim!!!This is the kind of answer.. -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 18:25:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Anyone ever accuse you of rambling? -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 14:53:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ RobertB -:- i do beleive in ghost, i do believe in ghost -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 14:09:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- I liked your post Robert -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 02:50:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- What was so great about it? -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:13:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- I liked it, that's what -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 13:21:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- I liked it, that's what -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:31:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- What the hell, 3 glasses of wine -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:43:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Do you care if that's the wrong way to think? -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:11:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- A natural experiment ... -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:42:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, yes, God Save the Queen! (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:36:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- HUH?! What got to you? (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:49:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Now it's I who don't follow YOU -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:41:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- My mistake. Thought you were having a dig. (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:47:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- I, for the most part, like your posts -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 07:54:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I agree with all of that (except one wittow bit) -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:02:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Don't tell me you don't know how to spell 'little' -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:51:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Listen, Jim, -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 04:29:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Just Butting in...this forum is for all of us -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 06:51:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Good advice -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:08:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's completely ass-backwards! -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 14:56:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ACoAJi -:- That's completely ass-backwards! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:52:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Yep, you're in: Welcome to the forum -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:48:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Great post (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:06:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ RobertB -:- if anyone is still reading this... -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:06:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I am -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:47:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- I think Mary wrote a gospel that was -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:03:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I think Mary wrote a gospel that was -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:39:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- I am -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:22:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I am -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:11:34 (GMT)

FAs! -:- Posts seem to be disappearing at the bottom. (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 04:17:04 (GMT)
__ FAs! -:- Oh good, they're back ... Thanks FAs ... (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 04:34:33 (GMT)

LEROY -:- The ship is going down!! -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 03:12:32 (GMT)
__ Steven Quint -:- The ship is going down!! -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 00:39:12 (GMT)

Scott T. -:- Why is there an FA? -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 02:48:33 (GMT)
__ Forum Administrator -:- Why is there an FA? -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 08:42:33 (GMT)

bill--what kind of nut -:- says f your mother? time to contact thier isp-nt -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 01:00:34 (GMT)
__ SB -:- says f your mother? time to contact thier isp-nt -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 02:41:34 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- says f your mother? time to contact thier isp-nt -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 04:46:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- FANTASTIC -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:01:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Still getting developed..nt -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:08:27 (GMT)

Zen -:- FA: Restringe a este Premi ji. Está ¡LOCO! (st) -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:30:46 (GMT)

Jim -:- Here's what I know about the spammer -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:17:37 (GMT)
__ Forum Administrator -:- Not Zen -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 08:44:58 (GMT)
__ __ Zen -:- Thanks, FA. (NT) -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:17:08 (GMT)
__ Zen -:- No soy yo. (st) -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:33:17 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- Mindless gibberish, wait...is this ELK now?(nt) -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:31:20 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Mindless gibberish, wait...is this ELK now?(nt) -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 02:42:42 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- His name is NARAD/SCA from Spanish Form. -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 01:40:22 (GMT)

Visions International -:- New Video release -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:04:17 (GMT)
__ winner -:- You fuckin morons -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:10:18 (GMT)
__ __ Elan Vital -:- You fuckin morons -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 06:03:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ winner -:- You fuckin morons -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 10:05:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tamo -:- Yu ar a gud speler.... -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:25:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Spellcheck -:- winner honey, it's 'losers', not 'loosers' -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:23:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ winner -:- You're the looser honey -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 22:49:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You're the looser (sic) honey -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 23:56:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ (sic) winner -:- You're the looser (sic) honey -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 00:29:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You're the looser (sic) honey -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 00:46:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ (sic) winner -:- No it shouldn't -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 05:27:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ (sic) winner -:- and furthermore -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 05:51:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- is this a *brayner* ?? NT -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 15:06:36 (GMT)

Q -:- You wrote better when you were alive. -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:33:08 (GMT)
__ Q -:- Who killed the reply to the above post -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 21:34:41 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Maybe Maharaji Is Posting Here Under An Alias -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:31:51 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- My educated guess on the matter -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 17:50:57 (GMT)
__ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Maybe Maharaji Is Posting Here Under An Alias -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 04:16:21 (GMT)
__ Q -:- Just when I thought you were the worst spammer out -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:35:02 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- Just when I thought you were the worst spammer out -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:53:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Steve posts a lot but he signs his own name. -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:56:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Better Late Than Never -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 16:38:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- Yves also is a nickname -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:45:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- It's Romeo and Juliet '...by any other name... -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 22:46:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- What's in a name? -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 12:40:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- This is the perfect writer. -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 18:15:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Rawat read a book??? -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 15:01:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- I found other fans didn't I? -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 16:50:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Could You Imagine? -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 16:44:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- That's not the way his brains work. -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:33:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- My speculation re: M reading or posting here... -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:04:34 (GMT)

Q -:- Is anyone awake? -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:09:51 (GMT)
__ Q -:- Thanks. nt -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 21:36:07 (GMT)

Joe -:- Additional Questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:55:44 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- Additional Questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 01:17:59 (GMT)
__ __ Rick -:- Additional Questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 15:02:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ And On Anand Ji -:- Additional Questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 18:55:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rick -:- Additional Questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 00:38:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I agree. Got me thinking. -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 03:56:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- I agree. Got me thinking. -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:47:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Additional Questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 02:03:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Great posts, both you guys (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 00:54:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AOA Ji -:- FA: Post did not display and is empty of text -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 19:15:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AOA Ji -:- re: FA: Post did not display and is empty of text -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 22:59:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- good post Rick -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 15:30:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- good post Rick -- I agree -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 17:22:59 (GMT)
__ CHR -:- Even more questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 10:19:38 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Even more questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 01:35:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- What a remarkable turn of events..nt -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:51:35 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Sleeping in a cupboard -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 15:05:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joy -:- Sleeping in Closets -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 21:35:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Luxury! -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 15:10:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Luxury! -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 20:24:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Luxury! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 00:08:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Luxury! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 04:42:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Too right! Imagine - a cupboard! Such privacy, you -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 17:36:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- lucky bastards can read the original script here -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:54:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hi Joy -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 22:12:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ DiscultA -:- Hi Joy -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:15:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Anne Johnston -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 04:20:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- That might be her -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 18:03:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- That might be her -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 05:54:15 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Who Let The Skunks Out (ot, nt, etc.) -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:28:24 (GMT)
__ Steven Quint -:- Who Let The Skunks Out (ot, nt, etc.) -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:36:16 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- Who Let The Skunks Out - Footnote -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:42:33 (GMT)

Bjørn -:- Another last post (almost OT) to Jim -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:19:13 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Talking of emails -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:18:15 (GMT)
__ Forum Administrator -:- Sounding the Last Post again? -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 17:40:10 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- But what if you really ARE stupid? -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:55:24 (GMT)
__ __ Mel Bourne -:- But what if you, Jim, really ARE stupid? -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 10:52:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Oh shut up already! -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 15:22:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Oh shut up already! -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 10:34:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- But this isn't quite like real life, is it? -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 15:22:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Whats being a gentile got to do with it? -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 10:16:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I said it for jew (hardy har har! ) -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:25:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- But this isn't quite like real life, is it? -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 06:05:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, this isn't exactly New York, you know (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:29:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Kjarne -:- This guy Jim -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 12:01:02 (GMT)
__ __ Bjørn -:- Just for the record. from a really stupid guy. -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 22:33:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Just for the record. from a really stupid guy. -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:34:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Just for the record. from a really stupid guy. -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:21:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- Just for the record. from a really stupid guy. -:- Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 22:36:36 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Norge -:- Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:06:27 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 23:33:02 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: sounds familiar
Message:
I found this today whilst having coffee and perusing the local fishwraps. It is awfully similar to stories I have heard here, both from the authors standpoint and the Master she followed. Seems as though there is only one way these kinda egomaniacal type can go.

http://projo.com/cgi-bin/story.pl/yourlife/04391951.htm

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 21:09:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey, Dog, just for you -- a guru doggie bag!
Message:
Every month Satpal's site puts up english translations of various satsangs of Maharaji's brother, Satpal, Satpal's wife and Shri Hans and Mata Ji.

You can find them at: http://www.manavdharam.org/books.html

So Dog, you thought that Maharaji's satsangs were 'A+', did you? Well here's the kind of nonsense they all came from. What do you think? Do you have any idea what TO think? How would you grade Satpal's satsang?

Manav Dharam (October 2000)

According to Indian mythology, when the primordial ocean was churned, many unique things were extracted. One of those was a deadly poison which had no antidote and so the destruction of the world began. In this day and age also, poisons have been created which can't be tolerated by the earth and human society will not be able to contain them either. The bacteria and viruses cultivated for use in germ warfare could wipe out the entire human race.

So Lord Shiva offered to control the poison. He drank it but didn't swallow it. It stayed in his throat so he became known as 'Neel Kantha' (blue necked). Thus he saved the universe from extinction. The positive power, the power to save the world, is potent with Lord Shiva. A devotee of Lord Shiva will never destroy the creation of his Lord and never intends harm to anybody. This is why we pray to him.

He is depicted wearing a necklace of 108 skulls. Once his wife, Parvati, asked, 'Lord, how did you get this garland of skulls?'

Shri Maharaj Ji delivering Satsang

The Lord replied, 'You don't know it, but all these skulls are yours. You have had many lives in the world. I collected each of your heads and made them into a garland, as I am the Eternal essence and I do not have to take birth then die.'

The divine play of the Lord is indeed strange. His father-in-law, King Daksha Prajapati, didn't like Lord Shiva's appearance and felt that such a primitive figure, dressed only in a deerskin, had no right to be part of his family. To show his disgust, the king held a great yajna and didn't invite Lord Shiva,but the Lord is always absorbed in meditation and the ways of the world never worried him.

Once upon a time Parvati complained, 'Lord, we have no home of our own.' The Lord replied, 'Wherever we go is our home.'

She said, 'No, I want a proper home. As it is now, the earth is our bed and the sky is our roof.' She insisted, so Lord Shankar told Vishwakarma, 'As my better-half has requested, please build us a beautiful home'.

An ordinary person has a home built of soil, cement and stone, but Vishwakarma thought, 'The Lord is not an ordinary man. He is unique and must have a unique home.' So he constructed Lanka from the golden bricks he obtained from Kubera (the Lord of Wealth).

Lord Shiva said to Parvati, 'See how grand our home is! But we won't be able to live in it.'

She replied, 'Lord! What do you mean? You've had this beautiful house built, so now we'll hold a Griha Pravesh (housewarming) ceremony then move in.' So they searched for a Brahmin to conduct the ceremony and decided on the great scholar Ravana. After the ceremony the Lord told Ravana. 'Now we can live in our own home. What would you like as your fee?' He replied, 'Lord, if you want to offer me something, then give me this house, as I won't find better anywhere.' And so golden Lanka was handed over to him. Then the Lord said to Parvati, 'Now we have to move out.'

After that the Lord reached Badrikashrama, where he built another home. One day Lord Vishnu visited and noticed with delight the hot springs and the holy streams flowing from the Himalayan peaks. Such an enchanting and rare spot couldn't be found anywhere else. Hot springs in the midst of mountain peaks always covered in snow is a natural wonder. So Lord Vishnu decided to reside there.

He assumed the form of a child. He sat down on the road Parvati would take and began to cry. She passed by and found this small child weeping. She picked him up. Lord Shankar said, 'Parvati, leave him there.' She replied, 'You are merciless! If this child is left here, he will die of cold.' So she took the child home to Badrikashrama.

Some time later she went to bathe in Taptkunda, the hot pool. When she returned she found the front door closed and so knocked on it. From inside came the voice of Vishnu, saying, 'You installed me here and now the house belongs to me. You must move out of here too.' Lord Shankar said, 'Parvati, let's go. I told you that it isn't in our destiny to live at one place.' If you visit that place you will see that when the Rawals, the priests, visit Badrinath they first salute the place where Vishnu took the form of a crying child. They bow down to that ground.

Eventually, Lord Shankar took up residence at Kedarnath. The gist of this is that Lord Shankar stays the same eternally and his garland of skulls is made from the heads of his wife Parvati. He is the total renunciate. He feels no attachment to the world and for this reason his father-in-law, Daksha, did not like him. One who is totally satisfied in himself and needs nothing of the world becomes like Lord Shankar. But Daksha didn't like all this. He mistook him to be a pauper who had nothing but a deerskin to sit on. The significance of the deerskin is that the Lord is in this world but doesn't touch the earth. But Daksha had no idea of his wisdom.

Once an old man was going home. On the way a young man met him and said, 'I will accompany you and together we will eat up the miles.' The old man wondered what 'eating up the miles' could mean. Further on they came to a river. The old man took off his clothes, piled them on top of his head and crossed the river. But the young man didn't. do this. He walked right into the water and crossed the river. The old man thought he was a fool for getting his clothes all wet. The old man put on his dry clothes but the young man walked on in his wet clothes. A strong wind was blowing and it was hot too, so his clothes soon dried. When the old man was tired of walking he said, 'Let us relax for a while under the shade of this tree.' When the young man reached the tree he opened his umbrella and sat down. The old man thought he was mad, because he didn't open the umbrella when he was walking in the hot sun but now opened it while sitting in the shade of a tree. When they reached the village, the young man said to the old, 'I advise you to cough before you enter your house.' The old man wondered why, but agreed anyway. He asked his companion where he would stay. The young man replied that he would stay at a nearby inn.

The old man coughed before entering, as the young man had advised. Inside his daughter was getting dressed. She called out, 'Father, wait a minute'. Then the old man thought, 'Luckily I followed his advice!'

After a while, the girl greeted her father and asked how he reached home. The old man said, 'I met up with a crazy young man who proposed we eat up the miles together, then he crossed the river fully clothed.' His daughter explained that 'eating up the miles' meant to cover the distance easily, of being unaware of how long the journey took. Her father said, 'Okay, but he was silly to cross the river without taking off his clothes!' His daughter explained that he kept his clothes on because of the strong current and anyway his clothes soon dried because it was a hot windy day. Then her father asked why he opened his umbrella under the tree. The girl suggested that there must have been birds in the tree so he opened his umbrella to protect himself from their droppings. So her father admitted that the young man was actually smart.

The daughter suggested sending a meal to the young man at the inn. She called her servant to deliver the meal and directed, 'Tell him that the ocean is overflowing, the moon and stars are scattered, and the eight directions converge.' The father asked, 'What does that mean?' She replied, 'I will know from his response whether the servant fed him properly.'

When the servant returned she asked him how the young man had responded to her question. The servant repeated, 'The ocean has dried up, the moon is not visible, there were only four stars and only four directions.'

Now the girl scolded the servant. The old man asked her why and she said, 'From what the servant says it means that he ate up half of the meal on the way. The wise man has responded to my message. The 'overflowing ocean' means the bowl was filled with curry but the 'ocean dried up' means the curry was not up to the brim. 'Moon and stars' meant the pieces of potato in the curry but he indicated that he saw only four and not the rest, which meant that most of the potatoes were eaten up by the servant. 'Four directions' out of eight convey that there are only four pieces of bread left out of eight.' The poor servant was afraid and admitted that he had been hungry so he ate some of the food as he would not get any while waiting at the inn. The wisdom of the girl was that she used those clues to discover the truth. But the really wise person follows the clues and finds the knowledge which elevates our life.

Lord Shankar is one with the 'Mahamantra', the Holy Word, which is the essence of the universe. It is written in the Ramcharitmanasa: 'Lord Shiva meditates upon the Mahamantra which he reveals to the people of Kashi for their liberation.' He propagated the knowledge himself to liberate others and his life was full of intense devotion. We have to consider that Maha Shivaratri (Lord Shiva's Night) is not a night for sleeping but to achieve inner awareness. We have to awaken spiritually and waking up by being unconscious of the world is the real Maha Shivaratri.

In the Gita it is said, 'The sages who stay awake at night and sleep while the world is awake are the real yogis.' While the world is asleep, yogis get up in the sacred hour before dawn and awaken internally. They are conscious of their own consciousness. They sleep when everyone else is awake and observing the phenomenal world. In other words, the awakening of the saints is the spiritual awakening and that alone can save the world from destruction. It has been said, 'God and Allah are both names of the Lord, so may the Lord bless all with wisdom.' The truth is One but interpreted differently by scholars, gyanis (the spiritually awakened) and priests. Because languages are different, the interpretations of His virtual Names are different. Still the essence is one and the same which is never variable. We have to know this invariable secret. If you construct a hut or a big bungalow the foundation is always the earth. Both the mighty banyan tree and grass spring from the same earth, which is the foundation for all. Similarly, the foundation of all of us is the divine energy, the essence of prana, or the 'Shiva Tattva' (eternal essence). Knowing that, we come to realize the mystery of the world. The ritual of offering whole bel leaves and water to Lord Shiva on the occasion of Shivratri symbolizes unbroken and sincere devotion and total surrender to God. The bel leaves must not be spoilt or have any holes. That indicates that we must be free of ego or any guile. Then only can we be totally surrendered to the Lord. We can practise devotion to the Lord only by our true faith and dedication.

In short, I would like to suggest that you follow the path of meditation and devotion. This present time of Kaliyuga (the age of ignorance) is so intense that a person can be protected only by meditation. Whenever spirituality, the true religion, is on the decline, the Lord manifests. Spirituality declines in many ways. When followers of religion don't follow the path of righteousness, then religion declines. One who wants and saves the world is saved by religion, otherwise religion won't save. Religion gets perverted when people don't know and don't follow its spiritual essence. As religion declines in the world, confusion is on the increase, so to rectify this, great souls come to guide us. When hot air rises, cool moist air blows in and it will rain followed by a storm. As the Lord says in the Gita, whenever the unrighteous and the tyrants increase in number, 'I manifest in every age to defend the true and the pious as well as to destroy the wicked.' So I appeal to you to meditate, for it has been said, 'Meditate only the Name of God, as the age of ignorance has set in.' (Naam jap Naam jap, Kalu aayo, Kalu aayo).

Kalikaal (age of darkness) has a widespread effect, especially upon the mind. There is a story that when the pious King Parikshit put on a golden crown on which the spirit of Kaliyuga was seated, his mind was affected and consequently he threw a dead snake on the neck of a sage who was sitting in meditation. Therefore, we have to take the support of the Name of God and meditation. This will accompany us at the end of our life. Earning money and accumulating possessions can please us for some time but can't uplift us or help us evolve spiritually. That potential is in the Name, so we must meditate on this Name which will take us to liberation.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:24:10 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, He stole the sermon I gave this morning! nt
Message:
That no good plagiarist Bubblegum-ji!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:30:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: That's because you're part of the vine, padre
Message:
Really, read his wife's. It's all there. I think she's talking about us-- those of us that still care about God and the truth and everything.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:23:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Here's an interesting one -- Satpal's wife!
Message:
In the Ramcharitmanasa it is written that a soul is very fortunate to get human body, which is rare even for gods. All the scriptures praise it because it is the perfect vehicle for meditation and is the doorway to liberation. However, people tend to waste it in rites, rituals and austerities. Practising austerities can win a person material rewards which then make him forget God. Excessive indulgence leads to ruin but if a rich person practises Knowledge he regards his wealth as belonging to Guru Maharaj Ji to be used for the good of others, he uses what he has to serve others. The ignorant man wastes it in ostentatious luxury.

People bathe in the Ganges, which will clean their bodies, but to clean the mind, the soap of spiritual Knowledge is needed. Through the path of Knowledge you can reach liberation.

Ah yes, may it never cease! The good, old-fashioned river of satsang. Guru's got his hands in your pockets and all's well with the world.

At the last Kumbha Mela, twelve years ago, there was a tragedy. A bridge was built in a hurry. It was not properly built and it broke. Just before this happened Shri Mata Ji, who was here at Prem Nagar, warned everyone that they are protected while they stayed within the ashram perimeters, whereas if they went outside they could face trouble. After the bridge accident, several premies told Mata Ji, “We were warned beforehand. We’d been thinking of going to bathe at Har-ki-Pauri because of the Kumbha festival.” So Mata Ji was giving an advance warning.

Now don't tell me that you didn't know that Mata Ji did miracles. Come on, you knew that! Holy Family, remember?

A week before she left her body, Mata Ji was here supervising the completion of the Ladies’ Ghat. She knew that as Knowledge spread larger bathing facilities would be needed here. She had the huge circular toilet blocks built. All the residential buildings have rooms with bathrooms. Everything is provided for you here, so detach your mind from everything else and concentrate it on satsang.

Wow, rooms with bathrooms. Just think, if we had kept this Holy Family together we could have all been enjoying those huge circular toilet blocks. -- sigh! I wonder what the toilet blocks at Amaroo are like.

Shraddhey Ji gave such meaningful satsang just now. While he was speaking, Sankhya ji was playing and I remembered that when Shraddhey was his age he played on stage the same way. Now he has grown up in age and in wisdom and is giving satsang. I remember very well somebody saying to Mata Ji, “Your entire family is involved in spreading Knowledge.” Mata Ji replied, “A doctor hopes his child will grow up to be a doctor. An engineer would prefer his son to be an engineer and even a thief would like his son to be a successful thief. In the same way, enlightened souls would like their children to be enlightened and work for the good of others.”

And yes, in the end, it's nothing more than that, is it? Mata Ji, good old Mata Ji said it plain and simple. It's a family business. No more, no less. Ha ha hahahahaaaaaaaaa....

There are two paths, one good, one bad. One who takes Knowledge and follows the good path is called a gyani, a person with spiritual insight. By Shri Mata Ji’s grace, the vine of the ‘Hans’ family is bearing fruit.

Do I detect a subtle dig at the Hans family vine that got into a bit of trouble back in the seventies and eighties? Well, not to worry, the Hans family's building up production again. Why just look at how spiritual these new little buggers are!

Shri Hans Ji Maharaj put up so much effort in telling people about this path. He put up with a lot of difficulties and discomfort. He had to face so many obstacles and setbacks, but he kept on, personally initiating one person after another. I recently met some people from Lahore and Karachi who told me they had been personally initiated by Shri Maharaj Ji but since Partition they had been unable to see him nor hear his satsang.

Sorry, that's the partition of India and Pakistan not the Holy Family.

When an enlightened master comes into the world, he brings powerful forces with him. With Rama came Lakshman, Bharat and Shatrughna, who were not ordinary people. They joined forces for the sake of others. Today when we study the Ramacharitmanasa we learn what lord Rama was like, how a wife should be, how a devotee should be, how a brother should be. We learn the lessons of an ideal family life. The enlightened master soul is born of a mother like anyone else but his actions distinguish him - he comes into the world to spread spiritual realisation.

Every nation has a prime minister to look after its citizens. Similarly, anyone who takes shelter in the Master is protected by him. He travels around the world to protect souls, revealing the power of Holy Name to one individual after another. We could have followed a false teacher and not known the true and eternal path of Knowledge so, in such times, we are extremely lucky to have found the true master. It is said, “If a blind man meets another blind man, who will show the way? If the teacher is ignorant of the true path he will teach his disciples the wrong way and they will follow him into a ditch.

There are people who see God as a profitable venture. There are those who bargain, “God, let me win the lottery and I’ll donate a rupee to your temple!” But when a person receives Knowledge and practises it, he dedicates his all at the feet of the Master.

Not clear who she's talking about, these people who see God as a profitable venture. Couldn't possibly be the Hans family though. No, of course not.

Once, Lord Shiva and Parvati were travelling in disguise. On the way they came to a religious fair. They saw a poor and weak man dressed in rags sitting helplessly beside the road. Parvati asked Shiva to have mercy on this man and do something for him.

Lord Shiva replied, “Parvati, he does not deserve it, so please don’t insist.” But Parvati pleaded with him to help that beggar. Finally Lord Shiva relented and gave him some clothes. He then asked for money so Shiva gave him enough to make a living. Some time later Parvati said, “Let’s go and see how our devotee is getting along. He should be doing quite well by now.”

They visited him and found that he had a house, money, everything. He said to Shiva, “Sir, you have given me everything, only one thing remains. Please also give me your beautiful wife to look after me and manage my household!” Then Shiva turned to Parvati and said, “That’s why I said that an unworthy man will abuse whatever favour is given to him.”

Oh that story was just so fascinating! Please, please, do you have any more? I simply can't live without one more Hindu fairytale.

There is a similar story about Bhasmasur.

Whew!

The Lord had mercy on him and granted him a boon. Bhasmasur then turned on Lord Shiva and pursued him. That is man’s condition. Men have turned into devils. If you talk to them about meditation, they suspect you are trying to take something from them, because they themselves are on the wrong track. They don’t understand that the soul is part of God, so he who is giving Knowledge of Soul must be enlightened himself, because only a master soul can reveal such Knowledge to others.

Now don't tell me that satsang isn't exciting. Why it's one new thing after another. Here, check this out!

‘Gu’ means ‘darkness’ and ‘ru’ means ‘light’, so Guru is the one who leads you from darkness and shows you Light. In satsang we often say that there are two paths in life - the road to darkness and the road to light. By the grace of the living enlightened soul one gets Knowledge and experiences God.

Okay, that's it for content. The rest is procedural. But, as you know, it's not the words. It's just that feeling, right Danny? Dog? Shp? Mel?

So on this occasion, the festival of Kumbha, you should resolve to spend the rest of your life walking the path of self-realisation and to serve with sincere and loving devotion. Don’t say one thing but mean another. St. Kabir said that if you twist a rosary in your hand and your tongue around a mantra but your mind is flying in all directions, this is not meditation. Don’t sit in satsang but think about food, waiting for satsang to end so that you can go and eat. Fasting does no harm! During Navratri people stay up all night!

See how peaceful it is here at Prem Nagar. An American premie who has come for the festival told me she was amazed at the scale of the arrangements. She said, “If we have four guests we run around like crazy making sure everything is okay, but here everything is on such a huge scale. It’s incredible that everything is going so smoothly.”

We (Holy Family) sit for four, five, six hours at a time so that everyone can have darshan. We won’t leave until the line is finished, because who knows which poor devotee has scrimped and saved to come a long distance for satsang and darshan, or what obstacles they had to face just to get here? It is said, “The world has everything, but a lazy person will get nothing.” Guru Maharaj Ji’s darbar has everything, but if you do nothing you’ll get nothing. So enjoy another two days of satsang and darshan and do a lot of meditation.

Very, very wise and beautiful, the Hans family is. On any continent they are truly a family of saints. Raja Ji, Bhole Ji, Maharaji, Satpal and let's not forget, Daya, with her preternaturally beautiful song of love and now -- what are those little fuckers' names? Here they are, Shraddhey Ji and Sankhya ji. And the vine just keeps on growing!

Ha hahahahaaaaaa

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:25:03 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry Jim , just couldn't handle it! (NT)
Message:
eieio
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:48:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: How about this one?
Message:
Manav Dharam (October 2000)

From birth to death, a man tries to attain constant happiness, and hence be immune from troubles and sufferings. In most cases he does not succeed. Instead, he continues to get himself tied up in doubts and anxieties. His periods of happiness are short-lived and true happiness, like a mirage, remains an illusion for him, but which, nevertheless, he continues to chase, wherever he thinks it can be found. Modern society with all its good laws and civilisation, its scientific inventions and discoveries, its technological innovations and conquest of Nature, represents attempts by mankind to find happiness. But we can see by looking around us that their actual results are only unrest and unhappiness, anxiety and frustration. Real happiness has not been found, peace has not been found, and suffering has not been eradicated. Instead the situation has arisen that the very existence of the human race is threatened. Man, who was so confident earlier, is now bewildered by his own failure, and he is now looking around not knowing what to do next.

Param Sant Sadgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj

The first step to saving the human race from self-destruction is to find out the cause of this failure. If you think about it, you will see that the main causes are not in the world around us, but inside man’s own mind, where inadequate discrimination and too often mistaking worldly pleasures for true happiness, have led to all the troubles that you see in world, in society and in the individual. Because of his misunderstanding of these elementary yet vital truths, he tries to find happiness and peace in ideas and actions where they can never be found and the obvious result is frustration and dissatisfaction. The more he tries to get his satisfaction in the wrong directions the greater his frustrations and dissatisfaction, until he finally has to acknowledge his failure. Today, people search for peace outside, for happiness in material prosperity, and for love in situations which only lead to fear and jealousy. Looking for happiness in material prosperity only causes lust, greed, envy, argument and conflict, and turns man’s attention away from virtuous living and right thinking to the accumulation of material wealth in its many forms, often irrespective of the means adopted. A man is now judged by what he has, rather than by what he is.

This has naturally caused corruption as men compete for wealth, position and power, which in turn cause turmoil and tension. There does not seem to be the least appreciation that, had peace and happiness been inherent in riches or power, Lord Buddha would not have renounced his kingdom, and Jesus would not have taught as he did, while on the other hand all the wealthy and powerful people in the world would be living in a state of pure joy. But look at the anxiety on their faces and the agitation in their minds: this is proof that they have not even had a glimpse of what real peace and happiness are. The fact of the matter is, that peace and eternal bliss are a sublime faculty of mind. They are to be found in the mind but never in material things. Countless examples have been provided in the pages of history which illustrate this truth, but man ignores them all, and continues as blindly as ever, searching for peace in all the wrong places. The true king is one who has conquered his mind, not one who reigns over many material possessions but who even loses the ability to sleep peacefully.

Everlasting peace can never be provided by social, administrative or financial measures, nor even in schemes to improve the environment by conquering problems like overpopulation or pollution. Permanent peace lies within oneself and that is the only place where it can be found. It is really very strange that in the world today man’s preoccupation with wealth, power and sense-pleasures takes him far away from good living and right thinking, yet sermons and lectures are delivered day in and day out on improvement of human behaviour and the encouragement of fearlessness, love and brotherhood. Competition for love, power and luxuries can never harmonize individual interests and make men work together in brotherly love. Diversity of interests and reckless competition always leads to conflict.

The Vice-President of India has said, “The crisis which is facing us is a human one and what is necessary is an improvement in human behaviour.” But nobody actually suggests how human behaviour can be improved. By mere lectures? By State laws? By publicity campaigns and advertising? By negotiations and conferences? How can it be improved? There appears to be total ignorance on this score. The natural conclusion is that there is no answer in sight to today’s human crisis and that tomorrow will see the annihilation of the human race. To save mankind, it is absolutely necessary that a method be found which can bring about instantaneous improvement in human nature. The only way is to regain complete control of our minds through equanimity, stability, tranquillity and faith in God. But true belief is impossible without practical realization, nor can the mind be controlled without infusing it with the Divine Light and concentrating it on His Real Name. What is the Divine Light? What is the real Name of God, and how can they be known in a practical fashion? These are pertinent questions in this connection.

Divine Light is self-effulgent Light which is ever-existing in all beings and which is responsible for life. It illuminates sun, moon and fire and stars. This light is responsible for the creation of the universe. To describe it, different words have been used in different scriptures. In the Vedas, it has been called ‘Bhargo’, in the Upanishads it is called ‘Jyoti-swarup’ and in the Ramayana it is called ‘Param Prakash’. The Koran calls it ‘Noor-i-lahi’ and the Guru Granth Sahab calls it ‘Chandana’. All these are synonymous with ‘Divine Light’. But this Light is so subtle that it cannot be seen with these material eyes. It is seen directly through the Third Eye alone. Every human being possesses this Divine Eye but it is closed. The Light is seen only when the Divine Eye is opened. Lord Krishna opened the Divine Eye of Arjuna and showed him the Divine Light. Sujata, the milk maid, opened the Divine Eye of Lord Buddha and showed him the Light. Similarly, Jesus Christ, the Prophet Mohammed, Shri Ramakrishna and others all saw the Divine Light with the Divine Eye. When the Light is seen and the mind is infused into it, it becomes even and stable. We all know that a new born baby, who certainly has a guileless mind, takes delight in light and cries in the dark.

This is because his mind, being unsullied by the ways of the world, loves light. Man’s mind naturally loves light and loves to be immersed in it, because subconsciously man knows that this light is his true nature with which he was once united and from which he has been temporarily separated. When the mind is diverted from the Inner Light and the Third Eye closes up, through lack of use, mind then turns towards worldly impurity. It gets plunged into the world of inconstancy and instability, and all sorts of trouble naturally and inevitably arise therefrom. This mind itself takes on the impure, flickering qualities of the objects to which it attaches itself, and it is these mental impurities which are simply and quickly burned away by immersion into Divine Light. Impure gold is purified by melting it in fire, and the same way, the impure mind becomes pure by infusion into Divine Light.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:53:56 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Now that's much better. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:57:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: What's better about it? (nt)
Message:
ggggg
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 00:00:24 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Poor old servant
Message:

got fucked over by the main players in the story.

That old time wisdom runs & runs.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 22:26:00 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, Dog, just for you -- a guru doggie bag!
Message:
I've only read a part of it, but I think that if we could somehow marry this with the 'dirt' satsang, we might have something potent against viral and bacterial infections.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:32:17 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I admit I sometimes use nicknames
Message:
Let me be clear about this. I sometimes use nicknames. Mind you, those always start with the letter 'Y'. For instance: 'Y argue', 'Ying', 'Yang', 'Yo, pick-up the phone', 'Yves's away', 'Yves must be silenced' and 'Yves' out to lunch' all were the very person I'd name with the vertical pronoun. I am so ashamed.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 15:04:09 (GMT)
From: Yhat a dwork!
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Lucky you FA didn't out you yet
Message:
For punishment, you must post naked for a week.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 18:37:04 (GMT)
From: Ying tong iddle i po
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Be ashamed, be very ashamed.
Message:
Why?

Oh all right then, don't.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 06:57:04 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Ying tong iddle i po
Subject: Save me from mispropounciation OT
Message:
How do you say 'Yves' phonectically...or sounds like ?
I read out loud in my head and want to get it right!
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:11:07 (GMT)
From: Ying tong iddle i po
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Yves sounds like Eve, as in Adam (nt) OT
Message:
Yvenin' all.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:46:44 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: In My Humble Opinion
Message:
If concepts such as 'Divine Justice' and 'Judgment Day' are valid, then someone who preys on the mentally ill and possibly initiates and triggers mental illness in innocent people will not fare very well in the long run.

In my humble opinion.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:59:59 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Don't Come Here If You Have A Weak Stomach
Message:
Check out the rape of innocence.
I'm using rape definition #3 and innocence definition #5.
In other words, the abusive treatment of people more trusting or naive than most.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 21:31:51 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: You don't really need us to have a conversation
Message:
do you Steve?
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:14:47 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Internet-Privacy....................ot
Message:
The internet is a scary place to be in when it comes to privacy. For those interested, find out how easy it is to collect information about you and your system. I had my cookies disabled, a firewall and two scan programs running all at once to minimise the amount of info, but hey, it's like a knife through hot butter.

General internet info
http://consumer.net/error.asp

So you thought you had a firewall
http://privacy.net/analyze/

What is your IP address and whois your service provider
http://www.bcr.org/cgi-bin/IP-address
http://www.chami.com/tips/internet/041498I.html

Download window washer,

http://www.webroot.com/down1.htm#WindowWasher

(pretty useless)

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 05:42:05 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Internet-Privacy....................ot
Message:
Salam:

Went to the privacy site. It correctly indentified my browser and some other support software connected to my browser. It identified my ISP, and got the domain name of my proxy server... but not my IP address or domain name. No cookies were installed on my system, because I usually block cookies unless it's a site I know. I can't visit some of the Premie websites because I won't accept their cookies. So basically it found out a bunch of harmless stuff about my system, but doesn't have a clue as to exactly who I am. Did I pass? I guess ZoneAlarm Pro works. I could also surf without the proxy server if I wanted to, in which case it would not even be able to identify my ISP, which has millions of customers anyway. Life's an open book, but the words are usually gibberish.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:48:49 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Internet-Privacy....................ot
Message:
Also try this place to see if you have any spyware on your system. You need OPOUT.Good little program.

http://grc.com.optout.htm

See if this fellow can see your IP address

http://grc.com/x/ne.dll?rh1bi2l2=rwjw34yp

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:24:21 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Internet-Privacy....................ot
Message:
Are you saying nothing really works for privacy?

The phrase is 'Like a hot knife through butter' meaning very easy; although I admit 'a knife through hot butter' is equally easy, but it depends on your end desire, to cut through or ?

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:19:09 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: This last post is right...
Message:
We discussed this at lenght with Jim and another Forum participant who don't visit anymore. The argument was EV has an intelligence Engineer working for it. Some PHD from Sorbonne University who lives around the corner in Malibu and spies on people. Maybe. I sometimes thought he was paranoid and sometimes though his arguments made sense.

That's when I decieded to use my real name. If there was a risk, I stand-up to it. I know these EV guys would like to scare us into silence with threats and lawyers. Dandy. Let them come.

On the other hand, if they wanted to buy my silence, they could benifit from a 50% rebate this week. It is only 500 000U$. I hope they won't let this opportunity go by; there are only a few days left. My constitutional freedom of speech is on the market just as my kidney and lung.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 05:33:06 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mumbojumboism
Message:
Personnally, I find it convenient to look at all things spiritual as wishful thinking in order to explain things I can't possibly know. Even when I was a member of the most absurd rawat cult, I thought this way. Of course, I was able to make an exception for my con man of choice.

I guess what I'm interested in is if anyone really knows anything or has just adopted a convenient belief system and then fit their thinking around it.

Maybe the Egyptians were right and RA should be worshipped!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:34:29 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Mumbojumboism
Message:
I'm not far from that viewpoint myself.

I've concluded, or some might say, come to the belief, that all relgions etc stem from some interpretation of an experience. Sometimes a good experience sometimes a not-so-good one. Sometimes an 'internal' experience (eg. drugs, meditation, visions, madness, near-death etc) sometimes and external experience (falling in love, social acceptance, brain wasjing etc) or a combination of both.

Anyway once the interpretation is made then there are implications that flow from that. For example. If I have an experience of seeing a disembodied 'light' and at the same time feel highly elated I might inperpret that as experiencing something outside myself, I might add some other ideas picked up along the way such as a 'god' or ands 'angel' or a 'higher power' etc. The interpretation leads to a range of other axioms that began with a simple experience. on the other hand if I inperpret the experience as one induced by fatigue, chemical imbalance or self-hypnosis - nothing need change in my life.

The orange story - how can you describe the experience of eating an orange - that is the purloined and wrong way of using the example. If the experience is one of 'eating an orange' then the words that follow are crap and should be discounted because they are a gross over-simplication.

Cheers

Peter

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 20:42:54 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Mumbojumboism
Message:
Well, I am convinced that we are a sub species of apes, and if there really was a judgement day, human beings would be in for a roasting!
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:17:37 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Mumbojumbillism
Message:
Well, I do know I am alive, and that human nature rules us.
And that I can choose to really like those around me regardless of thier faults. I can keep away from those that try to figure it all out or talk much about 'god'. I can assume that life likes me and not worry about any 'authority power' if I love my life and enjoy it. ect. ect.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:30:24 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Mumbojumbillism
Message:
Thinking too much about it drives me crazy or maybe is a sign of my inherent craziness! I am sorry to spout so many of my semi-held beliefs here. Really much of life remains a mystery. I have to acknowledge that what I 'choose to believe' could well be wishful thinking.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:43:32 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Mumbojumbillism
Message:
I think people choose to believe what makes most sense to them, and helps them get through the night. When you come down to it, it's pretty scary -- I mean, life and all. So many unknowns, so many threats to our well being. It's comforting when somebody comes around, like Maharaji, all puffed up and claiming he's found the key, the door, the answer. It's what we're looking for, isn't it? Naturally, when somebody claims to have it, those of us naive enough to believe it are going to check it out, and will even fall for it, some more than others. In time, some grow out of it. Some don't.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 23:34:55 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Mumbojumbillism
Message:
Hi Jerry,
You arent wrong of course, but I would substitute the word 'innocent' for the word 'naive'.
Carol, I dont mind your ideas about stuff. It isnt the folks here that I avoid. I DO read the posts about this stuff here.
I just recently decided to avoid all the other religious guys in my environment.
They force me to hold my tongue or get all involved with thier whole programming and it just isnt worth it.
At least here most of the folks are willing to be flexible.
Well, except the premies!
By -flexible- I dont necessarily mean -willing to change-.
Bobby wont budge from Buddhism no matter what.
And of course our very own Mickey the P is settled nicely in a view.
I guess I could name a few others but I might trigger a whole
uproar!
I guess I am exhausted at spending time worrying about invisible powers and whatever it might want out of me.
If it wanted us to look at it one certain way, it surely would have accomplished that view globally by now.
I find it is enough to be close to people and feel 'love'.
I guess that is why most people dont really think about 'god'
and mostly find it ok to just be involved with thier lives and deal with the god issue when death or christmas comes.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 07:26:07 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: all in this thread
Subject: my report from the front...
Message:
if anyone is interested, there have been three live leads that i have located so far in my 48 years of waiting, looking, asking, listening and wondering about this. the first came in a school of applied metaphysics i visited in Denver, and the leader of the school repeatedly told me i already knew and understood everything he was teaching and that i really didnt need his classes. but i went anyway because certainly didnt think i did. the one realization i came away with that still has me in its jaws today is that beliefs are not permanent nor true in themselves. they are indeed interpretations, but for as long as they are held, they will appear to be true. the reverse of what we usually claim, is acually the reality. it is'nt 'i'll believe it when i see it'. the mechanism is actually ' i'll see it when i believe it'. existence really does not care. existence has no real meaning. it's neutral. shit just happens. meaning is ALL in the eyes of the beholder. we decide if things mean anything, or don't. a thing is whatever you think it is. it is whatever you believe it to be. it has no inherent preference or way. things are true if you think they are. you make it up as you go along, and it conforms to what you think. when you change , it changes to conform. and the way you make something real is--you act on it.
this realization shook me up. it meant/s that its all in me. regardless of whether there's something out there , i can never know it. i can only know me. because i am the entity that is experiencing it.
understandably, this was a lot to grasp. whil I was still wrestling the the implications of this, a second voice joined in the song. I read Neale Donald Walsch's books, the 'Conversations with God' series I to IV. And heard the same basic , albeit rattling, admission. God has no preferences. God wants whatever you want. All our projections of what God is, what god wants or doesnt, etc etc, are projections. God doesnt care. He is interested in whatever you're interested in. He gets his experience vicariously through you. if you say you want something, or don't, all his vantage point can contribute is whether what you are doing, or intend to, is actually going to get you to that, or take you to something else. He does know what works and what won't, but he won't intrude and tell you so unless you invite him to comment or lead the way. it's just an option. he's with you regardless, but you can do or not do whatever you will.
and then a third voice came into the chord. a book 'love without end' by Glenda Greene, with what i could call some mindbending divine physics lessons about how each of us makes reality move.
i'm far from mastering these consciously, but ironically, i know its because i am already doing all this without thinking, and my life as i experience it, is the product, or the outpicturing, or the ongoing result, of this. it's true of everyone and everything.
so this has led me through a series of unexpected changes and eruptions and abrupt halts. things like realizing it's pointless trying to save the world --if the world wants to be saved, it will be. and that 'the world' is trillions of individual life forms, and each one is doing what it wants/thinks/believes it's doing, and I am too.
it isnt hopeless and it isnt finished and it isnt pessimistic nor optimistic. I decide if it is. It's all learning, and it's all open to chance and choice, and hence, when i took my netname, i did it with a wry glint in my eye for the multiple layers of possibility in it. My netname is 'Jai_Choix'.
its a triple pun. the U.S. government abbeviates my real name in their computers as J schwa. In the french language, 'jai choix' means 'I have the choice' or 'the choice is mine'. and since 'jai' in hindi means 'glory' or 'victory' or 'yippee' or 'celebrated', ultimately it's a declaration that no matter what i do. it's ok; i can't really lose.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 11:50:07 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: hermeneutics and deconstructionism vs. pragmatism
Message:
Janet:

Just in case you wanted to put a name to the belief system you've just expounded. Interpretation is a far greater component of reality than we thought, but it ain't everything. Some things transcend interpretation. Notions about fairness, for instance, and judgements about the transition between 'beautiful complexity' and just plain 'business.' We are constructed in a certain way, with certain predispositions that are universal, as far as I can tell. That either indicates design, or a common generic response to varied survival challenges. Either way it suggests that we are all similar, and that if reality is an 'interpretation' then we don't vary much as to the basics. That is rather surprising given that there is no really good reason why we aren't as varied as we *could* be. Perhaps reality and nature do play a role in limiting our interpretations. We don't really need absolutes, so we are adept at progressive approximation.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:13:34 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: rbruce@teleport.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: hermeneutics and deconstructionism vs. pragmatism
Message:
You have obviously given a lot of thought to the questions of reality! I appreciate your input!

Aside: Is your old traveling partner still posting under another name here? I have a guess.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 02:33:10 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Objection!
Message:
God has no preferences. God wants whatever you want.

Hi, Janet,

According to the philosophy you've just espoused, what I've extracted from your post (as well as some stuff I didn't) has no reality. It's just your current 'reality' that you believe in. Right?

Who knows? Tomorrow, you might be an atheist.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 21:22:06 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: shambling forward at the back ...
Message:
I sometimes think the way it works is, we thrash around and what works we stick with. Then we make up stories to help us remember what to do.

The scientific method helps ease the trap.

I chose an Indian name for myself, Wind on Grass.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 18:25:09 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Thankyou Janet! Jim!!!This is the kind of answer..
Message:
...I am looking for, something personal and real to you... (of my question to you of how do you judge 'validity' of experience)!

Janet said:
>the one realization i came away with that still has me in its jaws today is that beliefs are not permanent nor true in
themselves. they are indeed interpretations, but for as long as they are held, they will appear to be true. the reverse of what we usually claim, is acually the reality. it is'nt 'i'll believe it when i see it'. the mechanism is actually ' i'll see it when i believe it'. existence really does not care. existence has no real meaning. it's neutral. shit just happens. meaning is ALL in the eyes of the beholder. we decide if things mean anything, or don't. a thing is whatever you think it is. it is whatever you believe it to be. it has no inherent preference or way. things are true if you think they are. you make it up as you go along, and it conforms to what you think. when you change , it changes to conform. and the way you make something real is--you act on it.this realization shook me up. it meant/s that its all in me. regardless of whether there's something out there , i can never know it. i can only know me. because i am the entity that is experiencing it.<

Yes! Janet, I appreciate your rambling immensely!
Love, carol

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 14:53:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Anyone ever accuse you of rambling?
Message:
Janet,

See this space?

And this one?

How about this one?

See the capital letters A B C D ....?

And here's another space right ...... HERE!

Wow another one oops! Don't fall in!


Sometimes I think that if you slowed down a bit ..... took your time a bit ....... thought a bit ..... more

Like the other day when you so breathlessly urged me to confess my sins as a deatch camp commandant .......

Janet ......

relax

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 14:09:13 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com
To: anyone
Subject: i do beleive in ghost, i do believe in ghost
Message:
I often scoff at religions - but isn't it odd that of all the major religions none has suffered a major discovery that would discredit their doctrine, even though they can't all be right?
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 02:50:26 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: I liked your post Robert
Message:
Scientists have yet to disprove the hallmarks of most religions-----GOD! And how they have tried.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:13:13 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: What was so great about it?
Message:
Scientists have yet to disprove the hallmarks of most religions-----GOD! And how they have tried.

How's about the various stories of creation, such as our very own Judeo-Christian one where it was believed that God created the universe in seven days some 5,000 years ago?

And science isn't trying to disprove anything. It only tries to uncover truth. If what was believed to be true is proven NOT to be in the course of that, well, that's just too bad, I guess.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 13:21:22 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I liked it, that's what
Message:
The more science learns the closer they get to proving the existence of an 'all power' or whatever you want to call it. Take our discoverings of the human body for instance. Or the discoveries of our universe. Our understanding of energy and the components of the atom. Science does uncover truth to be sure. I agree. In all the discovery these past few centuries, the truths if you will, science has yet to discover that God could not possibly exist. He has yet to be uncovered as false, not possible.

As far as bible stories, the Christians I know don't believe like that. Except for the 'born agains' that live down the street. They also believe Mary was a virgin (not that I haven't seen pregnancy without penetration) and Noah's Ark did save ALL life on Earth. Including the insects. Two of everything. Can you imagine what that would do to our gene pool?

Take care, Tonette

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:31:41 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I liked it, that's what
Message:

Right on . Mindsang is just as destructive as satsang in my fucking opinion.

Just because I fell for a little fat fuck when I was 21 doesn't mean that 'there's not more in heaven & earth than meets your philosophy etc '.

Anyway , believers live longer than unbelievers.

Science in action 4 U .

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:43:22 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Bin Liner`
Subject: What the hell, 3 glasses of wine
Message:
4 cigarettes, and your reply which was so kind and so unlike Jim's forum has made me have to say 'I love you Bin'

Take care and please don't fall into the the trap I did..ie.take this too seriously.

Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:11:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Do you care if that's the wrong way to think?
Message:
I noticed above, Tonette, how you're jumping on the 'abuse' bandwagon. So sorry that I've done you wrong (I'm the only named offender in your post).

I wonder if this is an example of said abuse:

You've got it all wrong, Tonette. Science doesn't 'try' to disprove religion because religion doesn't lend itself to scientific testing like that. (Well, actually it does but the test would be so obvious it's too easy to imagine: get people of different religions to pray for things. The ones who get what they want have the best religion.)

Besides that, like I said to Robert, the burden of proof for all these claims lies with the religions, no the other way around. Scientists know that. Now you do too.

Okay, how was that? Abusive? Mildly abusive? Disrespectful, maybe? Rude? What?

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:42:48 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A natural experiment ...
Message:
... is provided by looking at figures for longevity of British Monarchs. Millions of people over many generations have prayed and sang 'Long live our noble King' (or Queen). Happily, the persons selected for this natural experiment are chosen by accident of birth - and the family involved has been switched, from time to time.

A splendid natural experiment which shows that the sincere and genuine supplications of millions of faithful subjects over the generations have failed to measurably budge the stubborn mortality rates of our species (adjusted for social factors, you understand).

That is, they die at the going rate of their class, regardless of all the prayers.

For whatever reason, I doubt anyone reading this finds it all suprising.

A personal god that answers petitionary prayer? The very idea is an abomination, and a foul insult to the millions of humans that have been slaughtered even as they prayed with animal fear and human awareness for their very lives.

A most oppressive notion, I should say.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:36:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Yes, yes, God Save the Queen! (nt)
Message:
hhhh
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:49:50 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: HUH?! What got to you? (nt)
Message:
Well ...
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:41:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Now it's I who don't follow YOU
Message:
What do you mean 'what'?

Seriously, John, I'm stumped.

I made a joke, you followed suit, I followed that and ... then what?

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:47:04 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My mistake. Thought you were having a dig. (nt)
Message:
no text
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 07:54:38 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I, for the most part, like your posts
Message:
You're smart, witty and very sure of yourself. And not a sensitive, hormonal, crying, emotional woman; like me.(joke)

By jumping in the bandwagon above I pointed out that you are not the only culprit. Actually, could that comment be interpretated as a defense? (not that you need it) Maybe I should read it again but I thought Nigel was the one who only named you, Jim, as a less than sensitive participant of this forum. (I really hate that word now-participant) The thread was directed at you.

But my objective in responding to Nigel was to comment on some of the problems I see using what is esentially a chat room for useful and thoughtful communication. I also wanted to express the experience (I still hate that word-experience) I've had here.

You have only hurt my feelings once here Jim. I'm almost over it now. Amazing what hours of psychotheraphy can do for one's emotional health.(another joke, not a very good one I admit) Seriously, the only time I can recall that you did hurt my feelings was when you told me to 'fuck off' in a thread below. It really bothered me but I'm over it.

No, Jim, you are not the only culprit here that can post less than attractive words. I have said some things here to some people that I am ashamed of. Please, please, please don't go digging thru the archives. But your comment above is a prime example of what I was trying to say in my reply to Nigel.

At the very end of your words to me when you give your thoughts on science and religion, you ask if I found it abusive, rude, ect. But in the beginning of your post you apologize to me for any misunderstanding between us. I don't know if you are being playful, sarcastic, sincere, fasecieious, making fun of me, implying I'm stupid. I really do not know what you intend here. For one reason I don't know you, I have never met you, and I have no cues body language or otherwise. But I will take it at face value, that you sincerely what to know what I think of your post. I don't find your comment anything other than your opinion. It's not at all abusive.

Another example would be Loaf's post to Carole referring to her journey. I have no clue what to make of it. Is he making fun of her journey? Is he joking? Just what the hell does he mean? I don't dare post my journey here. Why leave your self open to someone taking a dig at your heart? My skin is just not thick enough.

There's a saying that sums up my view point of this forum at this time. 'If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.' Trite, I know, but a stance I have begun to adopt.

This forum's venue and attitude will not and shouldn not change, the subject matter is just too emotionally charged.

Kind regards and keep on doing what you do so well. Tonette

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:02:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I agree with all of that (except one wittow bit)
Message:
You didn't like it when I told you to fuck off. But what weer you doing then? First you posted in this OT thread that YOU apparently had no interest in something like 'Who gives a flying fuck??????????' Well, obviously you didn't but was that really fair of you? Sorry, Tonette, I think a lot of people, even here on this forum, give at least a flying fuck about the middle east. In any event, what's it to you if you don't?

So then, because I found it just looking around and thought it interesting enough, I posted that piece about Shakespeare and the Earl of Oxford. Sure, I teased you a bit in the subject line. But then you made the point of posting that you read that article too and it was also boring. Another 'who gives a fuck?'?

So I told you to 'fuck off' and you say that hurt your feelings?

Explain?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:51:56 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't tell me you don't know how to spell 'little'
Message:
What a mockery! Spelling it wittow. That is just not nice. But why does that not suprise me about you?

Not at all kind after I tried to explain myself. You have a problem. Smart or not, I would not want to be in your shoes.

Take care and have fun, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 04:29:57 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Listen, Jim,
Message:
I have beem here too long at this forum to get into a verbal debate with you. Talk about taking on 'King Kong!' Does anyone think I have a chance?

For one, I have a very limited time to post here and do not have gobs of time to constuct perfect replies.

Two, you are a much better writer than i am.

Three, you are slightly smarter than I am, I think, but maybe that is debatable.

Four, you are not sincere towards me or careful of my feelings. I already told you I am too sensitive to post here, not in the clicke, and was hurt by you statement to me to 'fuck off.' Okay, you are telling me I deserved it. Okay, okay. Maybe I did. I was just joking but you were not. You baited me into replying to your thread by putting my name in the topic of your thread. And I did reply because well, I thought that that was what you were requesting and I was trying to be funny. But what I got was a 'fuck off.' And I say again it hurt that my feelings. Why? Well, gee, maybe I should consult a psychoanalysist! But yes, when you told me to 'Fuck Off' it hurt my feelings! Because you meant it and I was joking.

And here in your reply to me is essentially another fuck off Tonette; you're wrong, you deserve what I dish out, you think I am wrong. Okay Jim, but I don't think for a second that you don't understand what I am trying to relate to you. You think my thinking is perhaps 'premie like' or something? In any case, it's a moot point because frankly I don't care what you think of me. I am very clear of what you think of me and believe me, enough is enough!

I asked you a question in the above post to better enable me to communicate with you. To give me a better understanding as to how you communicate/your writing style. You never answered. But that's okay. I got the message, clearly in your reply.

You can be funny but sometimes you go over the line. It's okay, it's your forum anyway and I am just a guest passing thru.

Regards, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 06:51:28 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Just Butting in...this forum is for all of us
Message:
It is not his Forum. I am sorry that he has chased many people off who can't take the raw hostility or condescension of some ex-premies. You don't have to go. As was recommended to me before by other caring forum participants: you could try to ignore posting to people who are too rude or you could try to ignore baited traps if you have found them too painful.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:08:13 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Good advice
Message:
But I love reading his, Jim's, posts! And when one throws something out there I almost find it ammoral not to give some sort of response. Even if it isn't good for my mental health!

Most interestingly, I find that Jim's response to a much earlier thread, Nigel's is buried here where it is soon to be archived and soon forgotten.

What a laugh! Love, Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 14:56:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: That's completely ass-backwards!
Message:
That's a very funny way of looking at things.

Isn't the more significant point that there's never been a discovery, major or otherwise, that would support any world religion?

I mean, how can you disprove what isn't there?

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:52:10 (GMT)
From: ACoAJi
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's completely ass-backwards!
Message:
The thing is, there were these guys, and they tied deer antlers on their heads, and took young people into the dark cave, and scared the shit out of them. It was probably a lot of fun. And that's how religion got started -- a prank that had such a good repeat-rate of success. It worked on one out of five kids, that was a good rate of return on investment. We still do it to them, with Santa and with the Easter Bunny and all that garbage.

Religion is pure fantasy; it is reflected perfectly well in all of our fiction. There are Grimm's Fairy Tales and such. Religion is just that: someone's fancy. Nothing more. But somehow, it got out of hand. People made wars over it, which shows at some point religion became inseparable from politics. Now you know why it could never be got rid of, once acquired.

Religion is there to replace the feeling of security that came with having a loving mother and father looking after the small child. When the children get to be old enough to know the parent can't really protect them anymore, and that nobody can -- and that nobody can protect the tribe, even -- that's when they (some hot-headed teen, probably) pull out all the stops and invent a god, or a series of gods. Monotheism is probably a later development.

That's not all, because as an adult, the person has to worry about the crops, or the hunting, or just the weather. Make supplication to the god(s). Teach god-fearing to the kids, just like threatening them with Santa who will deny them Christmas presents. Control.

In the days before scientific theory taught to the masses, there was a lot to be afraid of and no explanation for much of it. Apparently, though, the deer-antler outlook (religion; animism) wasn't enough for some people, so I'd have to guess that in every generation, there are those with the deer-antlers (priests) who themselves don't believe the bullshit -- and in their spare time, perhaps, they find a clear horizon and look at Sirius, and scratch marks on a tree until they make a calendar and can predict its return.

Once they can do that -- hey -- why not milk the faithful who can't predict the return of Sirius (which marks the beginning of an agricultural season, or its end, or whatever).

ACoA Ji
Fri Oct 20 18:47:29 EDT 2000

... a sloppy rant; I'm tired ...

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:48:48 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: ACoAJi
Subject: Yep, you're in: Welcome to the forum
Message:
Got that magic stamp of approval. Have fun!

Tonette

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:06:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ACoAJi
Subject: Great post (nt)
Message:
ffffff
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:06:47 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: if anyone is still reading this...
Message:
Jim - that's really my point and I hoped to spark a little discussion. The Catholic church controlled the release of the Dead Sea Scrolls and took over 40 years to do so, even though the actual translations were done in less than 10 years. What were they afraid of?
At the time the scrolls were released the group (cult) was thought to be a small band of male ascetics, but recently it's been discoved that they were a very large group of men, women and children that had communities in every settlement in the dead sea area and were probably the jewish sect of Essenes. In my reading they were a mystical (eastern) messianic cult and probably a lot closer to christians than the church wants you to know). One of their last teachers was 'pirced with a sword and crucified'. Curiously there is almost no mention of the Essenes in the bible.
The people who wrote the 'Gnostic Gospels' are even more interesting - specifically refering to Jesus. The called themselves the Sons of Light - another cult from the east.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:47:54 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: I am
Message:
RobertB:

I find some of this stuff fascinating. Did you read any particular book(s) about the Essenes or the Dead Sea Scrolls, and did you like them or find them informative? If so, do you mind telling me the titles? I've been doing some research on Mary Magdalene, and I'd like to read something about the topics you mentioned. There's so much stuff out there, I can't figure out how to winnow it down.

Thanks
Monmot

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:03:13 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: I think Mary wrote a gospel that was
Message:
edited from the bible by the Catholics. Since of course she wasn't a guy. I'll try andfind what I ahve and send it to you Monmot but I am almost sure Mary wrote a gospel.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:39:33 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I think Mary wrote a gospel that was
Message:
Hi Tonette:

Figures the Catholics would censor what was probably the most interesting gospel of them all (sorry, I am so cynical when it comes to the Catholic church). I'd love to read it, but if it's easier for you to tell me where you might think I'd find it, rather than send it, please do. Someone should publish a Bible written only by women. It could be called 'Biblical Babes Tell It Like It Is.' :->>

Thanks
Monmot

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:22:10 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: I am
Message:
'Holy Blood , Holy Grail ' and 'The Messianic Legacy ' co authored by Michael Baigent Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln.

Very interesting research done on the Early Church and what you weren't told by the Roman Church. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.

Best wishes Hal

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:11:34 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: I am
Message:
Hi Hal:

Good to hear from you. I've got those books, but I haven't read them yet, so I think I'll just start on them. If that stuff is true, well, shiver me timbers, I guess. I spent my deformative years in Catholic school (12 yrs, which is why they're my deformative years :-)), and, boy, religion class would've been much more interesting if they taught some of the info in those books. Great stuff on Mary Magdalene too.

Thanks
Monmot

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 04:17:04 (GMT)
From: FAs!
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Posts seem to be disappearing at the bottom. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 04:34:33 (GMT)
From: FAs!
Email: None
To: FAs!
Subject: Oh good, they're back ... Thanks FAs ... (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 03:12:32 (GMT)
From: LEROY
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The ship is going down!!
Message:
The ship is going down? Have you noticed how crazy the premies are getting? I think thta it's because all is starting to look very WEIRD, even to them!

Ex-forever

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 00:39:12 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: LEROY
Subject: The ship is going down!!
Message:
Yes.Yes.I agree.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 02:48:33 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why is there an FA?
Message:
One thing that's a bit disconcerting about this sort of attack is that with an FA asleep at the switch (as this one appears to be) an attacker might be able to drive legitimate posts prematurely into the inactive list. Does this process happen automatically, and if so what's the algorithm that's used?

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 08:42:33 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Why is there an FA?
Message:
Forum Elves have restored the prematurely ejected posts to their rightful place. (That's at least one reason why there is an FA.)

Yes, the scroll-over process is automatic, but sorry I can't explain the algorithm.

Forum Administrator

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 01:00:34 (GMT)
From: bill--what kind of nut
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: says f your mother? time to contact thier isp-nt
Message:
sdfhfs
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 02:41:34 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: bill--what kind of nut
Subject: says f your mother? time to contact thier isp-nt
Message:
how do you do that?

thanks bill

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 04:46:57 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: says f your mother? time to contact thier isp-nt
Message:
Ask Brian, he should have a log of the idiot that shows his IP address and whois his ISP.

How are anyway, write to me,

p.s. why do posters put 'st' at the end the message subject but write in the reply post on the Spanish forum. Do they know what 'st' means. Maybe you should enlighten them.

haha

lol

Salam

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:01:39 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: FANTASTIC
Message:
There is life after K...and it is so much fun.

where is your pic?

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:08:27 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Still getting developed..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:30:46 (GMT)
From: Zen
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA: Restringe a este Premi ji. Está ¡LOCO! (st)
Message:
st
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:17:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Here's what I know about the spammer
Message:
Apparently, there's some nutcase who's been blocked from posting on the Spanish forum who posts under a variety of aliases, one of which might be 'Zen' but another being the one he's used below, 'SCA.' This infantile outburst is his.

When the FA comes back home, wakes up or whatever, he'll see this shit and remove it. Then maybe he'll have something further to say to SCA's server.

But what silliness, huh?

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 08:44:58 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not Zen
Message:
Although Zen has been accused of being the spammer in the past, he is no longer a suspect.

FA

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:17:08 (GMT)
From: Zen
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Thanks, FA. (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:33:17 (GMT)
From: Zen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No soy yo. (st)
Message:
st
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:31:20 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mindless gibberish, wait...is this ELK now?(nt)
Message:
argh
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 02:42:42 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Mindless gibberish, wait...is this ELK now?(nt)
Message:
HI DANEANE!!\

I'll write.

A big hug!

SB

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 01:40:22 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: His name is NARAD/SCA from Spanish Form.
Message:
Irene has warned him many time to behave. No he is not Zen.
She has blocked him several time, but pops up again, maybe changing hisISP, he is the pain in the ass on the Spanish forum. You will notice that he may replay
To this post because I told him what I thought of him.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:04:17 (GMT)
From: Visions International
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New Video release
Message:
Are you tired of those damn anonymous ex-premie liars?

Do you wish you had a big law firm at your fingers tips to shut them all down?

Do you want to send blood-thirsty SWAT teams to their doors?

Are you sick of all those 'proper' ways to ignore those lying bastards?

This new Video is for you!!!

Learn to post gibberish in quantity and finally lose all sense of any logical thought or debate.

Screw reason entirely and learn to act with utter immaturity and stupidity!

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:10:18 (GMT)
From: winner
Email: None
To: Visions International
Subject: You fuckin morons
Message:
We'll get this forum off the net in no time.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 06:03:30 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: winner
Subject: You fuckin morons
Message:
Dear Whiner:

Thank you for your support in responding to that tasteless post from someone falsely pretening to be the production arm of our non-cult organization, Elan Vital. We are apalled and dismayed that disgruntled former students, who are just stuck living in the stone age, when Maharaji, through Herculean effort, has dragged the rest of us, kicking and screaming, from our degenerate, drug-induced, hippie daze, into the modern world, filled with love, light and promise. For some reason, even Herculean effort was not enough to help those, poor, sickening fools. We could be judgmental about them, but Elan Vital has a policy not to discriminate against anyone, or to make negative comments about anyone, not even those as you say, 'fuckin morons' who hang around this forum.

Elan Vital hastens to add that Elan Vital no one has filed a formal complaint with us about the recent spamming of a certain evil site on the internet, populated by degenerate, anonymous, vile creatures, who should shrivel up and die. Elan Vital does not condone such activity, and we tried to contact some people about it, but they would not talk to us. To the extent Elan Vital either encouraged or participated in such activity, we are sure it was only to protect our legal rights, and we wer forced to do it because if we didn't act now, we might lose all our property, or something like that, which is what we paid our lawyers $400 an hour to tell us.

Once again, we are returning to our true mission, which is to enjoy the gift of gratitude through synchronized participation and non-heirarchical teamwork, all in an attempt to be grateful for participating and for participating in gratitude. It's just so simple and pure.

Sincerely in syncrhonization,

Elan Vital

ELAN VITAL: ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 10:05:53 (GMT)
From: winner
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: You fuckin morons
Message:
Lik I said. Well get these fuckin morons of the net. Spam? They ant seen nothin yet. Just wait til the cavalry come over the hill. The furkin loosers.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:25:53 (GMT)
From: Tamo
Email: None
To: winner
Subject: Yu ar a gud speler....
Message:
Dunt let thos x-primis intimate yu buy saing yu cunt spel. Yu ar do in fin. Yu spel lik mi. Du yu considir spaming too be partisipashun? I du.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:23:22 (GMT)
From: Spellcheck
Email: None
To: winner
Subject: winner honey, it's 'losers', not 'loosers'
Message:
Just thought you would like to know.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 22:49:27 (GMT)
From: winner
Email: None
To: Spellcheck
Subject: You're the looser honey
Message:
This forum is past its sell buy date. If just one spamer can get all the chickens a cluck clucking, just think what will happen when the cavalry arrive.

Cluck cluck cluck. The hens are in a tizzy. You cant stop Maharaji know. Hes got you on the run. Better make it password protected unlike the Maharaji sites which are all free and uncencored. No spammers their.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 23:56:10 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: winner
Subject: You're the looser (sic) honey
Message:
This forum is past its sell buy (sic) date. If just one spamer(sic) can get all the chickens a cluck clucking, just think what will happen when the cavalry arrive(sic).
Cluck cluck cluck. The hens are in a tizzy. You cant(sic) stop Maharaji know (sic). Hes (sic) got you on the run. Better make it password protected unlike the Maharaji sites which are all free and uncencored (sic). No spammers their (sic).

You're 'sic.'

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 00:29:54 (GMT)
From: (sic) winner
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: You're the looser (sic) honey
Message:
What's (sic) about arrive?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 00:46:47 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: (sic) winner
Subject: You're the looser (sic) honey
Message:
It should be ...calvary arrives.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 05:27:08 (GMT)
From: (sic) winner
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: No it shouldn't
Message:
Calvary is a place. It can't arrive. You looser!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 05:51:25 (GMT)
From: (sic) winner
Email: None
To: (sic) winner
Subject: and furthermore
Message:
Cavalry is a singular noun, even though it comprises of more than one man. Cavalries is plural and it would be correct to say 'the cavalries arrive' but quite incorrect to say 'the cavalry arrive' as you've incorrectly suggested, although this has been put into common usage by lazy, unchecked grammar.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 15:06:36 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: winner
Subject: is this a *brayner* ?? NT
Message:
Huh ?

Shoo.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:33:08 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Joseph Campbell
Subject: You wrote better when you were alive.
Message:
Whoever is channeling JC should have their channelers license revoked. (And get a spell check program.)
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 21:34:41 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Q
Subject: Who killed the reply to the above post
Message:
and why?
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:31:51 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Maybe Maharaji Is Posting Here Under An Alias
Message:
This is a request to Maharaji. He may just be reading this forum.
As far as I'm concerned it's the most interesting read in town and, who knows, he may just like good literature.

Maharaji:

Please go do something else and leave me in peace.

Steve Quint

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 17:50:57 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: My educated guess on the matter
Message:
Based on what I understand of his mindscape, I think he comes here often. He has time to spare. Every day. He is no-substance-nosy and he likes to fuddle with his state-of-the-art-computer-pluggeg-on-a-satellite-cellular-modem.

He reads most short posts but don't bother to write. I suspect he is too lazy to write. He probably doesn't read long posts. He looks only for the one-dimension in posts his lawyers could react to and is too intellectually-numb to get anything else that goes on here. Remember the guy is lazy and without substance. He likes expensive toys, computers, powerful tools, pro-grade TV equipment and expensive planes but he does nothing with it except play and show-off.

Given I figured it right and I think I did, he cares about what is being said about him. The guy has no education, very little instruction and is a lousy fuck with access to goddesses panties. He'd like the rich and famous to think he's one of them. That may explain why he still needs to fill halls with kijaying fans.

Chances are he'd prefer this forum wouldn't exist where friends, family, neighbours and the National Enquirer could read everything said about him.

Chances are friends, family, neighbours and the National Enquirer read everything said about his alleged sexual activities, Pedophiles Around Maharaji and realized how much class the guy really has.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 04:16:21 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: Maharaj Ji is a Coward !
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Maybe Maharaji Is Posting Here Under An Alias
Message:
He does not have the balls to speak on his own behalf, he justs hides behind his lawyers and codependant premies and lets them fight his battles. COME OUT OF THE CLOSET RAWAT!
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:35:02 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Just when I thought you were the worst spammer out
Message:
there, this total maniac came along.
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:53:07 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Q
Subject: Just when I thought you were the worst spammer out
Message:
Gee, thanks.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:56:39 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Steve posts a lot but he signs his own name.
Message:
I like that. Not knocking anyone who chooses to be anonymous, though.

You go, guy !!!

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 16:38:55 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Better Late Than Never
Message:
Come to think of it, the name 'Maharaji' itself is an alias.

I may be slow but I'm not stupid.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:45:05 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Yves also is a nickname
Message:
What's in a name? Why this and not that? My name could have been Mohamed, Wong, Weirdo or Drawer. My mother decieded otherwise and my dad went along because it was simpler this way. Now, leave me alone with the fucking holy name please. I know what goes-on in your head. You are under my complete control now. Your eyelids are heavy. You feel an irrepressible urge to send me cash. Say 'Yes Master'.

Where was, in some Shakespeare play, someone says something about 'What's in a name?' It rings a bell. Was it Hamlet?

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 22:46:22 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: It's Romeo and Juliet '...by any other name...
Message:
a rose would smell as sweet...' The Capulets and Montagues.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 12:40:29 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: What's in a name?
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

It's in Scene IV. Romeo's family name was Montague; and Juliet's Capulet. The families are locked in feud and will surely kill the lovers, if their liaison is uncovered.

'Tis but thy name that is my enemy - to me, the Bard says (among other things!) that though people be caught up in a murderous feud they yet remain as fully human as each other - can even love each other as individuals. The labels matter not. I regret that it seems the lesson remains unlearned to this day, even by those with pretensions to knowledge of the man.


JULIET

    O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?
    Deny thy father and refuse thy name;
    Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,
    And I'll no longer be a Capulet.

ROMEO
    [Aside] Shall I hear more, or shall I speak at this?

JULIET
    'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
    Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
    What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
    Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
    Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
    What's in a name? that which we call a rose
    By any other name would smell as sweet;
    So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
    Retain that dear perfection which he owes
    Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
    And for that name which is no part of thee
    Take all myself.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 18:15:21 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: This is the perfect writer.
Message:
I am moved but don't understand half of it in English. Victor Hugo made the best translation in French. I wish to improve my English and, one day, read it as it was written.

Does anyone know if Fatrat ever read a book? If so, what was its title?

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 15:01:33 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Rawat read a book???
Message:
I heard the rat talking about reading books once in some video, don't remember which one, but he actually said when he reads books he reads the end of the book first. Whether he goes back and reads the entire book I don't know, but it seemed kind of weird to me.

I knew he was kind of 'backwards!'

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 16:50:59 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: I found other fans didn't I?
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 16:44:27 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Could You Imagine?
Message:
Could you imagine Maharaji coming here under the alias 'Maharaji' and giving 'satsang' about how valuable life is and gratitude etc?

Maybe we'll even learn a little more about dirt.

Scary thought!

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:33:33 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: That's not the way his brains work.
Message:
Likely, he reads here what is thought of him and next time he fills a hall, he'll tell us all about Emmanuel Kant just to have kijaing premies believe he has substance.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:04:34 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: My speculation re: M reading or posting here...
Message:
I've been tempted to email m to tell him off, then I realized that I don't believe he reads the negative stuff. I believe he's protected from that by premies.

Look, being around m I learned a few things: he hates criticism, gets very angry when someone disagrees with him, and premies protect him from anything negative, usually out of fear.

That doesn't mean he doesn't look at this website or forum, but being the narcissistic egomaniac he is, I kind of doubt he'd even be able to read the site and stuff said about him.

Plus, he never returns emails nor writes back to ex-premies, or premies for that matter.

It's only my speculation. However, a lot of folks PAMs have much at stake in preserving m's reputation. But, if, perchance you are lurking here, Rawat--Fuck you and the plane you flew in on!!

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:09:51 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: Is anyone awake?
Message:
Please counteract the idiot spamming your forum.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 21:36:07 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: FA's
Subject: Thanks. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:55:44 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Additional Questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
Hi Michael,

I hope you had a good weekend. I had a great one backpacking in Yosemite -- in an area called Cathedral Lakes. We had fantastic weather, although it got pretty cold at night and we had to hike through some snow. We even saw a Mountain Lion and two bears. Fun.

Sorry you got that threatening email, but I must say, I was very impressed with your response to it.

I had a couple of additional things I was hoping you get your viewpoints on. Regarding the asrhams, you said:

So Maharaji, in effect, threw up his hands in frustration because the financial resources were limited, and if we spent those limited resources on [the ashrams, there would be precious little money left for Maharaji to live in the style to which he had become accustomed, and to which he felt he was entitled. So the ashrams failed because the legitimate needs of the ashram premies became more of a burden than an asset to Maharaji...He expected unquestioned devotion but he never took a serious interest in the welfare of the people who had dedicated their lives to him....So, in the end, Maharaji decided that, instead of trying to create a support structure that covered all of the ashram premies, he limited that support structure to the instructors.

So, it seems the conclusions that most of us have reached that Maharaji didn't give a toss about anybody but himself is supported by what you saw as well. Thanks, that's ememsely helpful, but not at all surprising.

And I know that Maharaji was anything but a normal person, but to any normal person, shutting down the ashrams after having held those ashram meetings with us when he said the ashram was a life-long committment, and that no one should ever leave, etc., and that he was taking care of us, etc., would be very embarrassing. It would be an admission that one was wrong on a very fundamental issue, and such a person would feel kind of sheepish about doing this about face. Do you think Maharaji felt any of that? Was he at all embarrassed, or do you think he felt that he was somehow maybe not as perfect and all-knowing as he thought he was? By the way, did Maharaji believe he was 'all-knowing' like we sang in Arti? Did he ever talk to you about what his supposed above-human powers were?

And do you think Maharaji's failure to admit or take responsbility for failures in his mission, either the ashrams, or his abysmal failure at 'spreading knowledge', especially in the West over the past 25 years, not to mention his failure to hold on to 90% of his devotees, are due to embarrassment, or just because he just doesn't see the failures?

Regarding the instructors. Wasn't there also a time when Maharaji cut them loose as well, just like he did the ashram premies? Was the motivation the same as it was with the ashram residents, that they were more of a financial burden than he thought they were worth, so he just cut them loose? Was that handled any better that the ashrams were handled?

For example, I have heard that Anne Johnston, a Canadian initiator whom I got to know fairly well because she often toured through Chicago when I was there, and who was one of the most fanatically devoted premies I ever met, and was notorious among the premies for that very reason, was 'fired' from being an initiator/instructor in the mid-80s, after having been an ashram premie and initiator for well over a decade. I don't think she was given any money or help with getting on her feet. Since she had no real skills, people who knew her said that she had a very hard time supporting herself, had to beg for money from other premies, but didn't go on welfare because she was afraid it would reflect negatively on Maharaji.

Apparently, she remained devoted to Maharaji, despite feeling abandoned, and finally about 10 years later, a couple of years ago, Maharaji 'allowed' her to live in a trailer near 'the residence' in Malibu and walk miles to the residence, despite being in her 60s, and do his laundry for the rest of her life. And I'm sure if you asked her, she would feel incredibly privileged for the right to do so.

Anyhow, was this the same basic scenario?

Thanks again.

Joe

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 01:17:59 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Joe
Subject: Additional Questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
Joe,

Thanks for the support you and so many others have expressed on the Forum.

You ask if I think Maharaji felt embarrassed about closing the ashrams after stating repeatedly that it was a life-long commitment, or do I think he felt that he was somehow maybe not as perfect and all-knowing as he thought he was?

As I said earlier, I was not party to most of the conversations about the closings of the ashrams so if he did express embarrassment, I did not witness it. But, it was my experience that Maharaji always looked for someone to blame if things went wrong. In the case of the ashrams, it was the honchos’ fault for trying to make things so complicated and expensive, and it was the ashram premies fault for not being grateful enough for the opportunity to surrender.

Does Maharaji fail to admit or take responsibility for his failures because he just doesn’t see them?

I’m sure he saw failures (he spent too much time complaining about this or that not to). However, those failures were never his. It was always somebody else’s fault. And as “worthless” dirt at the feet of the perfect master, we assumed that he must be right, offered our “mea culpas”, and committed to try harder in the future. You can’t imagine the amount of politicking this kind of environment produces. It is certainly not one for the faint or pure of heart. In fact, it absolutely kills the spirit.

Did Maharaji believe he was 'all-knowing' like we sang in Arti? Did he ever talk to you about what his supposed above-human powers were?

Maharaji never talked about his “supposed above-human powers” with me or anyone else I know about. I remember him talking to the instructors about people on a spiritual path becoming fascinated with acquiring powers (he used the word “siddies” (spelling?) but that knowledge had nothing to do with that nor, he claimed, did he.

Regarding the instructors, wasn't there also a time when Maharaji cut them loose as well, just like he did the ashram premies? Was the motivation the same as it was with the ashram residents, that they were more of a financial burden than he thought they were worth, so he just cut them loose? Was that handled any better that the ashrams were handled?

I remember a conversation I had with Maharaji when we were alone in his hotel suite on tour. He was, as usual, complaining about the instructors (I don’t remember about what). So I asked him, “Why do you need instructors?” It was obvious to me that not many people were receiving knowledge anywhere in the world, yet he had who knows how many instructors. More to the point, I asked him why he never gave knowledge personally. At that time, it was my opinion that he should take look at this issue instead of simply perpetuating what he had inherited from his father. I thought that if he gave knowledge personally he might actually start thinking about the whole process and who knows, like any good leader, might actually begin to innovate. Thus, I was not surprised to hear, sometime later, that that is what he did, although I do not know what he has actually done in that regard. I assume that is the reason he “cut them loose”, but I do not have any information on how that was done.

I am sorry to hear your story about Anne Johnston. Anne and I moved into the ashram in Toronto on the same day in March of 1973. We both took our ‘vows” (it was a serious commitment) at the same time. I liked Anne despite her touch of fanaticism and I wish her the best.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 15:02:05 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Additional Questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
I have to say I'm stunned (in a good way) by Michael Dettmers' revelations.

I think it's for several reasons. First, having someone who was so close to maharaji present a personal account that paints the guru so obviously human, puts a more final touch on understanding how we were deceived.

It's true that I'd already figured out I was duped but the whole thing was so obscure. I'd worshipped an Indian teenager I'd never met, based on stories from premies, my own delusions, and a few hours of discourses from maharaji in carefully controlled settings. I actually had very little to base my worship on.

Then, as the worship wore off, there was also very little to confirm I'd been duped. More stories from ex-premies whose contact with maharaji was as limited as my own. And the recognition that previous evidence of maharaji being the Lord was not only sketchy but actually provided proof that he wasn't the Lord.

Dettmers' earlier unwillingness to reveal much about his involvement with maharaji came off as a sort of plaqued veneer. His exchanges were guarded, not very deep, and his portrayal of maharaji as a kind of okay guy, didn't ring true.

So in contrast to that, Dettmers' posts of the last week have been startling to me. It's kind of like if your father had been a drunken child-abuser and you knew it, but mother kept denying it and pretending everything was okay. No matter how much you knew the truth, you still needed mother to come forward and admit she knew what really happened.

I don't know if Dettmers realizes how much he contributed to maharaji's rise to power years ago. And I don't know if he realizes how much he's doing now to help dispel that bullshit. But in any case, I'm personally very grateful.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 18:55:55 (GMT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: _n_
Subject: Additional Questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
I don't know, Rick. I think that while it's nice to hear remarks that resonate with what is already known, the hard part is done by the listener: letting it in, validating it internally, and then acting on it.

This site -- this group of people -- is doing more for M. Dettmers, for you, for me, than we are doing for it. I can't say that this late in the game, I feel especially validated by anything Mr. Dettmers has said. I'd like to hear from Bill Patterson, Barbara Kolodney, Brian McDermott, Joe Anctil, Arthur Brigham, Charnanandji, Jagdeo, Devki Bai and all the rest; but I would equally like to hear from a whole shopping list of local premies who done me plenty of dirt, including some with no notoriety whatsoever.

Fwiw, sounds to me like Maharaji was running the same scam on Mr. Dettmers he was running on the rest of us, so no real insights there (which is, of course, an insight in itself! :) I'd by lying if I didn't admit I tracked the thread his writings here engendered; it was more interesting reading than some of the off-topic stuph that gets posted here; and had a content length to make it worth retrieving from the slow messaging db interface.

EVERYONE IS LOOKING for something they cannot have, which is a sure thing. A sure sense of closure; a sure validation. I think the best we can do as individuals is adopt a point of view that seems to be somewhat shared by people we can find agreeable. As I get older, though, that adopted perspective seems more and more temporal and situational. It's like those guys beating the clubs in the grandstands in Planet of the Apes. Wuu. Wuu. Wuu. Wuu.

I don't believe my dreams. I don't believe my eyes. I don't believe your dreams. I don't believe your eyes. Every time I get sick, I blame ten things; every once in a while I find a way to stop illness from spreading, or at least a technique that accidentally (as a side- effect of doing the technique) stops the spreading of disease, illness, and suffering in my personal cubic feet of space. For a while.

For instance, I spent over a year with a really nasty and persistent skin rash (raw skin) on the middle of my left arm. It was so frustrating. I would gain and lose ground trying to make it go away. One day I had a conversation with a friend's wife (who was a nurse) and we decided together to treat it as a rash and an allergy to metal -- I had been wearing suspenders with a metal clasp on them for the same period the rash persisted in. I stopped wearing the suspenders, and three weeks later, the rash went completely away, never to return (in several months since).

Finding it myself, reaching out to a friend with some experience -- but fully taking personal responsibility for understanding the root cause -- was invaluable to me; but I can hardly beat club and wu wu say I got the drop on skin rashes. All I can say is ok, I have exactly one data point to graph I didn't have before.

IN SUMMARY, I'm not easily stunned. M. Dettmers posted! Oooh! Ahh!

I don't subscribe to that. That's not a criticism of anyone here, but it is a criticism of the very idea of it; the cult of personalities was always more than a little offensive in DLM, and the people who were 'in' have a lot to answer for, irrespective of being duped by cult leader(s). And I mean that when I say that the local muckety-muck did me more harm than Mr. Dettmers could have, even in legacy.

I guess there's more but I've borrowed enough of your time for the moment. Thanks for listening.

-AOA Ji
(and_on_anand@yahoo.com)

Thu Oct 19 14:57:31 EDT 2000

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 00:38:56 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Additional Questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
I agree with you about the local premies causing alot of psychological damage and I was also repulsed by the mucky-mucks. That part was easier to resolve than the guru is god issue.

I was impressed by Dettmers' posts because he had first-hand contact with maharaji over a long period of time. That's something we didn't have when we began believing maharaji was the Lord and it's something we didn't have when we stopped believing it. Having close contact with anyone for an extended period will tell you more about them than anything else.

In my case, the belief that maharaji was God went so deep that there are still little shreds of guru shrapnel stuck in my skin. I can say 'Fuck the stupid little Guru' in one breath, but I'd probably react like he was God if I bumped into him on the street.

It's probably because such a deliberate programming campaign took place over a long period of time. Without any actual contact with maharaji to dispel my delusion that he was divine, I was able to craft a huge fantasy out of my imagination. Dettmers' probably couldn't do that because he was exposed to maharaji long enough to have a real image.

So when I read Dettmers' account, I was actually startled and thought, 'maharaji really isn't God'. Now I know that's insanely dumb but there's nothing like being really convinced for a moment. Most of the time, this whole guru/devotee thing was something that never really took place. It was like Santa Claus or Snow White.

Once a kid sees three different Santa Claus' at the same shopping mall, or sees Santa change into his street clothes, it's all over. That's sort of what this was like to me, except there's still some shrapnel left in there.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 03:56:57 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: I agree. Got me thinking.
Message:
Rick:

Had to read the post with all these testemonials, and the 'Guru Shrapnel' that really got me. I recall experiencing satsang for the first time and starting to build this idealized image of Maharaji. But here's the thing. It was as though I needed to believe in something, perhaps within myself, that was just a lot simpler and a lot more innocent than everyday life. It started with 'just maybe' and progressed. But I was never a very good devotee, because the reality was never quite as good as the fantasy... so I had this uneasy feeling that something was not quite right somewhere. It was as though the best I ever felt about Maharaji was when I attended some of those satsangs in New Hampshire at least six months before I ever received Knowledge. So what's the point? Well, it wasn't really Maharaji that I 'found' was it? Thick as a brick.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:47:10 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I agree. Got me thinking.
Message:
Yes, the best I ever felt about maharaji was also before I got knowldege OR even heard satsang. Just the thought of all the bliss goodies had me ready to worship.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 02:03:37 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Additional Questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
It is gratifying to see anyone turn the corner; the sweet thing here is Mr. Dettmers is known to so many, so it isn't just some schmo figuring out what a life-suck DLM and GMJ was.

When I was a kid, and I wasn't sidetracked into someone else's agenda for a few days, I'd usually find myself investigating something deeply scientific, like astronomy, geology, the weather and atmosphere -- and biology. When I was in DLM, reading a book -- any book -- was frowned upon.

That's not their opening pitch though, when they first tell you about the gooroo. They don't say, 'Yes, and if you join now, you can stop reading immediately, because that is mindsang!' That's not the come-on.

So when you realize the platform is deception, the house of cards falls. Who knows why the first time this is noticed, it is set aside by the Aspirant. Maybe because they get a title: Aspirant. I dunno.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 00:54:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Great posts, both you guys (nt)
Message:
fffff
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 19:15:34 (GMT)
From: AOA Ji
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA: Post did not display and is empty of text
Message:
http://www.ex-premie.org/forum5/main.cgi?key=0TR0

This post has no text or author displayed here.

Is it lost?

-AOA Ji

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 22:59:26 (GMT)
From: AOA Ji
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: re: FA: Post did not display and is empty of text
Message:
Nice job. Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 15:30:13 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: good post Rick
Message:
I too, wonder why it matters to me so much to hear these things, all these years later. But it does give me a sense of resolution and validation. I certainly am not plagued with doubts about whether it was a cult and he was a cult leader, that much is obvious. But, how much of the deception was purposeful? how much was self deception on the guru's part? What were the dynamics behind the cult? How were decisions made that effected so many lives? Did the guru care at all about the premies? This was such a pivotal time of my life that of course I am very interested in Michael's, or anyone's insights from behind the residence doors.

I certainly do not want to minimize the help I have found in reading the stories of the average premies like myself. This too, has been very enlightening and healing for me. But so few former 'PAMs' have spoken out in a public way, and there are so many people with unresolved questions about this time in their lives. I am really glad Michael has decided to say more, because it is such a healing thing he can do for so many people. I always felt it was his decision because he has to deal with the consequences, but I am glad he is saying what he is, and having talked to him I think he cares very much about his fellow former premies and will feel good about how helpful this is.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 17:22:59 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: good post Rick -- I agree
Message:
I think you're saying what a lot of us are feeling. Thanks.
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 10:19:38 (GMT)
From: CHR
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Even more questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
Hi Michael
I have been impressed with your integrity in the way you have responded to questions and assertions here.
I have a few questions that are more personal curiosities than anything.
I spent some time in the late 70s and early 80s around Maharaji - some residence security, backstage security, airport and coordination of security at a few programs. Although I never had any real personal involvement with him( he spoke to me maybe 3 times) I was able to observe things that at the time were confusing and confronting. I am curious as to whether my picture matches yours.
I found M unpredictable and moody- he could be funny one day, dark and irritable the next. He could be tenderly playing kites with Hansi in the morning and yelling at someone in the afternoon. At the time I thought he was simply confronting our 'minds'. I saw him drunk a couple of times. In hindsight he seems like a spoilt little rich kid, probably more deluded than concsiously fraudulent.
The people I saw and knew who were at his beck and call seemed permanently exhausted. Some initiators who were close friends confided that they had been incredibly lonely and the closer they got to M, the more confronting life became. When I look back it seems to me that they were quite unhappy. It was all rationalised, of course. One residence security person I know served and lived at one of M's residences for 9 years. M hardly spoke to him or acknowledged him during this time. He was hurt and confronted but blamed himself.
I myself had moved into the ashram in 1973 at the age of 20, and except for 1976, stayed there until they closed. At least half of this time involved full time service. Within a year of the ashrams closing, I was married. I had little or no understanding of what it meant to be in a marriage, little awareneness of anothers needs. Somehow I'm still married but its taken a huge learning curve. I have friends who were in M's fulltime service from 1972 to 1985. They went from community Coordinators to initiators and were left with nothing except middle age and a deep sense of betrayal.
Did Maharaji have any awareness of these things or did he simply see these people as going down the wrong track and not having faith in him? Was he aware of the exhaustion suffered by those around him? You may correct me, but my observation was that many didn't have time to sleep properly, let alone meditate.
Thanks, Chris.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 01:35:53 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: CHR
Subject: Even more questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
Chris,

I think your observations and assessments are right on the money.

I have been giving considerable thought to the question about Maharaji's awareness, or lack thereof, of the consequences of his actions, and his ability or willingness to be accountable and responsible for his actions. I will write on this topic soon but, for the next two days I am traveling and don't have the time at this moment.

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:51:35 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: What a remarkable turn of events..nt
Message:
sdfhs
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 15:05:19 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: CHR
Subject: Sleeping in a cupboard
Message:
'Was he aware of the exhaustion suffered by those around him?'

My 2nd ex-wife was a house mother in his London residence(Woodside) circa 72-73.
She was given a cupboard to sleep in; that is when she was allowed to sleep.
I kid you not.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 21:35:25 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Sleeping in Closets
Message:
Hey, I slept in a closet as well, in my final ashram in San Francisco in 1980. It was pure luxury. It was the first time I'd had my own 'room' in about 8 years' ashram time. Sleeping four and six and up to ten to a room got pretty tedious after a few years and the rather spacious closet was my own little universe. The next step, of course, was moving out, a process helped along immensely by our own Joe, as a lot of you know. He really was a good friend to me during that transitional time.

P.S. Hi Joe, been enjoying your exchanges with Michael Dettmers. I don't imagine he'd remember me from the typesetting room at IHQ, but I do remember him as one of the 6th floor bigwigs who didn't attend satsang as much as us commoners and seemed rather mysterious. I appreciate his being able to come forward here and speak the 'truth' about M and all the goings on. And I can't believe that story about Anne Johnson, what a sad, sad tale. I remember her well from my ashram days and was quite fond of her (and vice versa), surprisingly.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 15:10:14 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Luxury!
Message:
Remember that Monty Python skit where they vie with each other for how poor they werew growing up...

'Luxury, we didn't even have beds, we slept in the street....'

Anyway, LUXURY! We didn't even have beds. I slept on the floor in a sleeping bag for most of my six ashram years. My husband still asks me 'You mean you didn't even have foam mats?'

No foam mats. When I arrived in Denver the ashrams seemed like a kind of millionaire's palace.

Hey Joy! You comin' ova?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 20:24:30 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: joyfenwick@onetel.net.uk
To: Disculta
Subject: Luxury!
Message:
Hi Disculta,

Well, you win the Monty Python contest hands down. The low point for me was when I went to the Peace Plant in Houston before the Astrodome thingy and it was hot and humid, something I'd never experienced before, and they gave me a raw foam mat on bare concrete floor, no bedding of any type. Just couldn't hack that and ended up crashing on a friend's hotel room floor, at least it had a carpet.

Do I know you Disculta? E-mail me and I'll let you know whether or not I'm comin ova!

Love,
Joy

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 00:08:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Luxury!
Message:
How about this. When I first moved into the ashram (Vancouver, a month before Millenium) Leon Hawrylenko, Kevin Smith and I all slept in this tiny little office. We'd pull these carpet samples Leon got from work out of the closet and lay them down under the telex. Just enough room for the three of our sleeping bags.

Kevin was flatulent.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 04:42:55 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Luxury!
Message:
When I was hitching around during the 60s I once stayed on an old ferry called 'Gate 6' in Sausilito. The boat was inhabited by some famous rock band, who played late into the night, but I was too out of it to know who they were. Might have been Peanut Butter Conspiracy. Anyway, I slept in a box of old clothes (or possibly laundry) they called the 'magic box.' Later I stayed in an old army barracks in Berkeley (around the time of the riots, since tear gas was everywhere) and slept directly on the springs of the bed. To this day I have no idea why I did that. I'd have been much better off on the floor. Maybe there were bugs or something. God I was nuts!

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 17:36:53 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Disculta + Jethro's lady
Subject: Too right! Imagine - a cupboard! Such privacy, you
Message:
lucky bastard ...
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:54:58 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: the WORLD (copyright...)
Subject: lucky bastards can read the original script here
Message:
http://www.montypython.net/scripts/4york.htm

'But you try an' tell't young people that today ... and they won't believe tha ...'

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 22:12:43 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Hi Joy
Message:
When I saw the post about sleeping in the cupboard, I immediately thought of you and your being 'in the closet.' So great to hear from you. Everyone should know that Joy was also a great help to me in leaving the cult. Joy and I went to see just about every French film (and I think German too, lots of Fastbinder), that came to San Francisco, and that was a whole lot of them. It was a great antidote to the ashram and the cult.

I'm still planning on a visit. My significant other and I want to do some kind of a 'walking tour' through Britain. He is planning it, so we shall see. Sounds kind of cool, though.

I'll also email you about next month. It's kind of a full month for me, but maybe we can squeeze something in.

All the best, and just be glad you don't have to be here for this abysmal election season.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:15:39 (GMT)
From: DiscultA
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hi Joy
Message:
I was in the shram with Joy in Denver. I remember one night she went to a 'Who' concert. She came back totally blissed out raving about the 'oneness' everyone had experienced, and actually said that it was as good as a MJ program.

I remember being a bit disconcerted and a bit ruffled by this, and I think it was one of my 'drips.'

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 04:20:26 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Anne Johnston
Message:

... Anne Johnston, a Canadian initiator ...

Apparently, she remained devoted to Maharaji, despite feeling abandoned, and finally about 10 years later, a couple of years ago, Maharaji 'allowed' her to live in a trailer near 'the residence' in Malibu and walk miles to the residence, despite being in her 60s, and do his laundry for the rest of her life. And I'm sure if you asked her, she would feel incredibly privileged for the right to do so.

There is an Anne Johnston (same one?) who is listed (at www.anywho.com) as living at 31516 Anacapa View Drive, Malibu, CA. Maharaji's address is 31334 Anacapa View Drive.

Result from a driving directions query at www.mapquest.com, going from 31516 to 31334 Anacapa View Drive:

Directions: 1: Start out going Northeast on ANACAPA VIEW DR towards RAMBLA DEL ORTO DR by turning right.

Distance: 0.3 miles

Results of a property search on 31516 Anacapa View Drive at www.knowx.com:

Name: HARNICK,SHELDON & MARGERY
Property Address: 31516 ANACAPA VIEW DR MALIBU CA 90265
Year Built: 1980
Percent Improved: 73.06%
Number of Rooms: 14
Number of Baths: 2.5
Number of Bedrooms: 3
Heating/Cooling: HEATING SYSTEM
Fireplace: FIREPLACE IN PROPERTY
View: PROPERTY HAS A VIEW
Total Square Feet: 3,207
Zoning: LCA1
Legal Description: *LAND DESC IN DOC 0989260,900604*TR= LAND OF M
Lot Size (square feet or acreage): 85,813
Assessor's Parcel Number: 4470007008
Assessed Value: $465,398
Tax Amount: $5,142.84
Home Owner Exemption: HOME OWNER EXEMPTION
Last Sale Document Number: 0001353410
Last Sale Date: 07-21-1999
Last Sale Amount: $948,000
Last Sale Transaction: F

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 18:03:49 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: That might be her
Message:
But I don't know for sure.

It was Gail, who was a personal friend of Anne in Canada during the time she was struggling to survive financially, that filled us in on all these details. It might be that Anne is no longer living in a trailer, maybe she is living in some kind of a support house for 'the residence,' I don't know. But originally, she was living in a trailer, doing Maharaji's laundry, and having to walk quite a distance. Being that Malibu is full of millionaires, they don't have a very good public transit system, I guess, and I'm sure Anne couldn't even afford a car.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 05:54:15 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: That might be her
Message:
Joe:

But originally, she was living in a trailer, doing Maharaji's laundry, and having to walk quite a distance. Being that Malibu is full of millionaires, they don't have a very good public transit system, I guess, and I'm sure Anne couldn't even afford a car.

A bike would work well in that situation, or a trike if she were balance-challenged or just didn't want to put a foot down at the light.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:28:24 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Who Let The Skunks Out (ot, nt, etc.)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:36:16 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Who Let The Skunks Out (ot, nt, etc.)
Message:
If lyrics are against etiquette as someone suggested, how about links to lyrics.

Who Let The Dogs Out?

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:42:33 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Who Let The Skunks Out - Footnote
Message:
Etymological footnote:

Benji:

Japanese ben = shit
Hindi ji = sir

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:19:13 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Another last post (almost OT) to Jim
Message:
Hi Jim
Re post under 'Ive been warned.' and some other stuff.
My remembrance of Michael as a person was a bright guy, allways smiling and friendly, always positive, a guy I sensed 'steaming' of integrity. He had my greatest respect, being a premie or a non premie.

My picture of him was reinforced by the posts he wrote.

His last post broke my illusion of an idol. It is OK. No harm done. I am a bit disappointed that is all. And I am able to see Michaels dilemma. And I even feel sorry for him. But I wished he would reply my emails.

Should I start arguing with you? Why?

In my eyes you are in your own way a straight guy. However you are so one pointed that it is quite pathetic and it seems like you never take off your ex-premie glasses.

You call me stupid. Idiot. Braindead. Thick as a brick. Moron, Thicker than woods. And so on. You do so, even if, I did not even discuss Maharaji - or a cult.

So what? . Sorry I dont take that very serious.
In fact in one sense I take that you call me these things as a compliment. Because I know that such things will be said when there are a lack of argument.

And I realize as long as you have the glasses of ex-premies on your nose, it will be impossible to have a sensible discussion with you.

There are better things to do in this life. Enjoying life is one.

I am these days a bit proud of myself. Here is why.

A few years ago, I was knocked down by a person, kicked in my head and body for 5 minutes. (Like Rodney King)My wife was also the victim of blind violence. The man who did all this, his father was the second highest police officer in my city. By manipulations of evidences, lies, false witnesses, etc. the guy got away with it - so far.

My country is pretty civiliced. It is deeply rooted that criminals should 'be protected and have their rights'. But in a case like mine, the victims have no rights.

Their status is to be a witness in their own case. Neither the victim nor his lawyer are allowed to be present in the law case.If the criminal is honest, it is ok. But if the criminal lies?

When this had happened to me, I corresponded with the nowegian prime minister and the minister of justice. But the governement changed and nothing happened.

I even founded a foundation to fight for justice and also support peace - (means Maharaji) - but as I lost my money, the foundation could not go on.

Anyway, this summer I read a master degree work by a dr juris where she kind of made a point that in cases where people are victims of a criminal act, Norway is an underdeveloped country. I also found out about the proceedure of such cases in Sweden and EU. And in fact, Norway was miles behind the other other countries in this respect.

I did some researh and found that Norway had signed a resolution in the UN regarding victims of violence and abuse of power. None of the content of this resolution was implemented into the norwegian law system. So I translated it, proved that norway did not follow any of the points in this treatment. And then I started lobbying.

I made a letter, formed also a potential news article and put ogether some documents, sent it to the justice minister of norway, The same pacjkages I sent to all the members in the justice commitee of the parliament, as well as to all the leaders of the political parties (9 of them) in the parliament.

This autumn Norway was trying to be a member of the security council of the UN . To expose a scandal like this would ruin my countries chances to achieve this.

Anyway. I got results. 4 days ago I received a letter from the office of the minister of justice, stating that already in the budget for next year it had made changes that the compensation to be paid for victims of violence was to be incresed from 200 000 to 1 mill. NOK. And that the government had made suggestions to change the rights for victims of violence to be improved in such and such a way.

So the next day, I received a personal letter from the leader of the political party at power, stating the same, and saying I would receive a letter about this also from the minister of justice in a couple of days.

So even morons who does not have a clue, with almost no knowledge of law, by hard work can accomplish something in this world.

What did you accomplish?

I bet you are a talented guy, with a lot of potentiallity. I bet you are getting fatter and fatter, sitting behind your computer all day, fighting one cult, and not being aware of the fact that you are creating a cult of its own. (Some cult researchers are even doing a research of your cult right now. Because in this time and age, due to internet the nature of cults have changed.)

You could do better than this-

So I tried many times to not come back here. Curiosity brought me back. And then I wanted to know the truth about things and also to make things more balanced.
So let me say this: In spite of all your statements, all your twisting of words, in all your saying, I must say, you are not updated. And in spite of all your effort;
I admit, I still like Maharaji.
I still admire him.
I still try to enjoy the Knowledge I was given.
And still I cannot deny what what Ive been given.

So time to leave again, and by the way, I wish you a good life.

Bjørn

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:18:15 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: randers112@hotmail.com
To: Bjørn
Subject: Talking of emails
Message:
But I wished he would reply my emails

I did reply to yours. Is that it now? No conversation? Or did you just want to capture my IP?

No matter.....

Rob

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 17:40:10 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Sounding the Last Post again?
Message:
Bjorn, you write:

There are better things to do in this life. Enjoying life is one.

and later on:

So time to leave again, and by the way, I wish you a good life.

Perhaps you should prove you have better things to do by just doing them. And if you really wish people here to have a good life, you will STOP obsessing on this forum about Abi and Susan's experiences.

BTW: When I redrafted the forum guidelines I forgot to mention rule 17a.

Rule 17a, clause (iii) quite clearly states: Anyone who pisses off the Forum Administrator one too many times is booted out forever.

But you've already left. Haven't you?

(Don't bother emailing the admins yet again. I have already offered you my best advice and have nothing more to add.)

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:55:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: But what if you really ARE stupid?
Message:
Bjorn,

Good for you in your whining campaign.

But your'e still an idiot. Face it, fella, you don't think straight. You think like a crazy man.

Here's the latest example:

You call me stupid. Idiot. Braindead. Thick as a brick. Moron, Thicker than woods. And so on. You do so, even if, I did not even discuss Maharaji - or a cult.

So what? . Sorry I dont take that very serious.
In fact in one sense I take that you call me these things as a compliment. Because I know that such things will be said when there are a lack of argument.

This just shows how absolutely dumb you are. You're reasoning is all off. Just because people get called names when their adversary has nothing else to throw at them (like a good argument, let's say) it does not follow in the slightest that whenever people get called names it's for that reason. That's only one possible explanation. Here's another: the person being called the names deserves it.

Bjorn, buddy, you deserve it. Why? Because you say the dumbest things of all. (Well, every premie has their individual dumbness, I wouldn't want to take that away from you. But you do have your own dullness, Bjorn, that is astonishing.)

For example, Dettmers isn't Dettmers, Maharaji never said what Maharaji said, Dettmers was drunk .....

And your so-called 'reasons' for these pathetic attempts to avoid the truth! Shameless, Bjorn. Shameless and, yes, idiotic.

So here you've done it again. Demonstrated that you have a very sketchy grasp on rationality. You're a worm, Bjorn. Either that or truyl brain-damaged from your beating in which case, my sympathies, I'm sure.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 10:52:59 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But what if you, Jim, really ARE stupid?
Message:
You couldn't resist picking on Bjorn in your response, could you?

Once again, I'm appalled with your obvious lack of compassion, but not really surprised, and 'humour' is no excuse, it doesn't hide your sadism.

Mel

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 15:22:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Oh shut up already!
Message:
Don't you get tired of doing that?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 10:34:01 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh shut up already!
Message:
Don't you get tired of doing that?

Of course I do Jim, but I can't help but react to your compulsive tactic of personal abuse and insults to make your point. Not just happy to win a point by intellectual analysis of the subject, you obviously delight in grinding peoples faces into the shit in order to totally humiliate and intimidate them.

Read your post to Bjorn again and count how many personally insulting comments you made, and then tell me what's good and positive about taking such destructive tack.

BTW, are you like this in real life? You obviously are capable of respect as evidenced by your treatment of MD on this Forum.

Mel

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 15:22:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: But this isn't quite like real life, is it?
Message:
Mel,

Ocassionally, I have the discreet pleasure of passing time with a premie or two. Invariably, we'll start talking about Maharaji, usually when I broach the subject. I'm usually pretty mellow, good-humoured and civil when I talk with people. Usually, anyway. And that's how I am in these conversations too.

In almost every case what happens is that the premie starts getting skittish as they simply can't deal with the most basic questions about their cult no matter how you approach the subject. Everything's sensitive, everything's confusing and really, when it comes right down to it, everything's taboo. No matter how soft-spoken and polite I am the premie invariably becomes visibily uncomfortable and urges, begs or tries to cajole me to quit talking about this stuff. They threaten to leave or hang up if we're on the phone. Immediately, if I don't stop RIGHT NOW.

Of course that never works. I don't then change the subject and ask about their job or garden. Rather, I usually try, again in as gentile and civil a manner as possible, to address their concerns about even talking about Maharaji.

And then, of course, they bolt.

That's how it usually goes.

That's not to say that all premies are like that. Some will indeed stick around and have a discussion. With them, things are usually civil enough. I enjoy those conversations, when I have them. I'd be a liar to say that it isn't fun to have a position that overwhelms the opposing argument on every last point. Really, once has to wonder how anyone could even hold that opposing view, it's so bankrupt and indefensible. Yet people do, they're called cult members and talking with them is like shooting fish in a barrel.

On the forum, though, it's different. Here, anonymous premies, like you, aren't subject to the real-life dynamics, and I'd say pressures of a 'real world' conversation. There's no eye contact, for one thing. And the timing's all wrong. The forum provides a natural advantage to a person with an untenable position. Put another way, if you had to defend an indefensible cult, this would be the way you'd want to do it. For one thing, no one has to know who you are. That's a big one. For another, you don't have to look anyone in the face when you say absurd things! That's got to be a big one for you, huh Mel? And third, you can split anytime you're stuck! It's not like in real life where you need some excuse, usually, to get out of the room. Here you just don't say anything.

Look, for example at this Kjarne ghost. Does anyone know who he really is? Did anyone see him come into the room? Who'll know when he's gone? Can anyone see his face?

No to everything, Mel. Like I've said before, you guys are ghosts. You can't risk having real-life conversations about your cult, it's too confronting. So you come here and take pot shots from the other side, from ...[Twilight Zone music] 'Maharaji's World'

So talking with you ghosts here is a bit more like an exorcism. Calls for a different approach than the real world version.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 10:16:41 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Whats being a gentile got to do with it?
Message:
'...I usually try, again in as gentile and civil a manner as possible..'

Must be hard for a Zionist like yourself to be 'gentile', especially with the pro-Palestinian ghosts on the Forum!

But getting back to the original subject....I disagree. I think that people have feelings and these can be hurt whatever the medium of communication may be. True, I may not be able to see the twinkle in your eye or the smile on the corner of your lips as you verbally bludgeon Bjorn to death, but that doesn't excuse your trashing him as a thinking and feeling human being.

Mel

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:25:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: I said it for jew (hardy har har! )
Message:
Mel,

Bjorn deserves everything he gets.

What's wrong with you? He called Dettmers an imposter, a liar, someone once smart who's now gotten very stupid ....

Why don't you talk about that?

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 06:05:01 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But this isn't quite like real life, is it?
Message:
Jim:

Of course that never works. I don't then change the subject and ask about their job or garden. Rather, I usually try, again in as gentile and civil a manner as possible, to address their concerns about even talking about Maharaji.

I'm just wondering where you go to put in the gentile practice. Victoria? Glad you're making the effort though.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:29:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Hey, this isn't exactly New York, you know (nt)
Message:
fffff
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 12:01:02 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: This guy Jim
Message:
You know Mel.

This guy Jim must have a lack of self-confidence. He is sitting behind his computer every day for hours trying to blow up his ego by insulting other people.

I feel sorry for him.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 22:33:18 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Just for the record. from a really stupid guy.
Message:
Hi Jim

To show how stupid I am you come with these impresswive quotes:

'For example, Dettmers isn't Dettmers, Maharaji never said what Maharaji said, Dettmers was drunk .....'

Just to correct what I acutally said.

When I read Michels post I found it so stupid that at first I did not think he did it. (I even emailed him and asked if he had written it)

I never said 'Maharaji never said what Maharaji said:' I claimed that one qoute of Maharaji, posted by a John T, was false, and I explained why. Then you Jim said, 'It is written in the WIGM?'. I read through that book, and did not find it but I found a question in that book:
Question: Are you God?
Guru Maharaj Ji, No, my Knowledge is God.
So I said to Jim he was a liar - but he never replied, but mentioned that he was accused by me to be a liar.

Finally when I realized that Micheal indeed had written the post I found stupid, I said I hoped for his own sake he was drunk when he wrote it. In my opinion, if some weirdo would regard Micheal as a enemy, this very post would be a potential weapon.

But I never said I am not stupid. And I got a braindamage.

BTW did not Forrest Gump say; Stupid is Stupid does.


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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:34:50 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Just for the record. from a really stupid guy.
Message:
How about an i.q. test before being allowed to post on the board?
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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:21:01 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Just for the record. from a really stupid guy.
Message:
Steven:

Set the bar too high and you'll eliminate some of our more robust contributors. :-) And of course it would keep Maharaji from ever making a public disclosure and apology on the forum. My heart goes out to Bjorn, but I can't help but think that following Maharaji is simply creating more brain damage for him. I feel as though he ought to try making a claim to the Norwegian government for exploitation of the mentally handicapped. I thought 'Smylla's Sense of Snow' was a great movie though, especially Julia Ormand. Sorry about the spelling. At least it's close.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 22:36:36 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Just for the record. from a really stupid guy.
Message:
If Maharaji really wanted to issue an apology badly enough, he could always cheat.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:06:27 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Norge
Message:
Congratulations on your fight for justice, Bjorn. I'm happy it turned out well for you.

You are mistaken about the nature of this website. Perhaps a little research into the meaning of the word 'cult' might enlighten you as to who we are as well as what kind of group you are associated with.

We at this site are obviously disillusioned with the clay-footed god Maharaj Ji, but, aside from that, we hold very few opinions in common. (Although I've found recently that there are a lot of Naderites here, and a lot of folks who believe Shakespeare was really deVere. Me too.)

Another common cult characteristic we lack is a charismatic leader. (And, no, we do not toe the party line of Comrade Jim!!)

Another: a belief that somehow we have found something special that most of the world lacks. (Such as Knowledge.) The fact that we don't believe Maharaj Ji is a Great Master doesn't set us apart from the world; I believe most people in Oslo, Beirut, Tokyo and Peoria share this view.

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