Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 16:44:22 (GMT)
From: Oct 17, 2000 To: Oct 23, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


Jean-Michel -:- Don't miss that old thread on the 'BEST OF' page!! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:34:53 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- God, now I'm going to start reminiscing -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:53:52 (GMT)
__ __ janet of venice -:- i say we should--! pour it out! tell it all -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:50:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carol -:- i say we should--! pour it out! tell it all -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:17:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- I, for one, won't read that like that -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:54:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- If I didn't already know you are a lawyer, -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 17:28:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well at least I'm not a lightbulb salesman -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:52:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji 10010101110101 -:- Well at least I'm not a lightbulb salesman -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:40:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- i did. server is dropping my html tags -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:36:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- aw, gee-Mr.persnickety doesnt like it..tsk -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:05:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- what it looked like b4 i hit enter--ok?? -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:22:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Stop twice at the next one. -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 04:13:04 (GMT)

Stuart M -:- Thing's are as they are - get on with it... -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:34:31 (GMT)
__ cq -:- You mean 'let the dead bury their dead'? ... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:10:04 (GMT)
__ Anon -:- Thing's are as they are - get on with it... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 13:11:46 (GMT)
__ Steven Quint -:- Thing's are as they are - get on with it... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:02:08 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Thing's are as they are - get on with it... -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:37:03 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Thing's are not as they seem.... -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:36:57 (GMT)
__ Eric -:- Well said -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:12:59 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Now that was VERY helpful! Thank you, Stuart! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:37:19 (GMT)
__ __ janet of venice -:- read my above post on pouring it out -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:59:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carol -:- I am sorry about this on, Jim! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:49:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Carol -:- 'One' not on. I'm going to clean the bathroom! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:57:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, I REALLY buy that -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:10:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- ..sigh..no, jim. it was stuart i was addressing -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:47:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, my mistake entirely -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 17:02:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Carol -:- I can't believe the callousness of this remark! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:23:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- do you mean his, or mine-or stuart's? -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:31:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- I quoted what I meant and my mood got derailed -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:44:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I quoted what I meant and my mood got derailed -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:53:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- No trigger, no gun (hypothetical) either -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:52:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- No, you didn't miss something -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:38:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- I come and go since about 2 1/2 years -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 06:19:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- I come and go since about 2 1/2 years -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:36:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- on assertiveness -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:30:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- You're like the Helen -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 06:52:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- It doesn't matter what others may say -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:26:33 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- I know I'm sick -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:02:27 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- I know I'm sick....you're not sick.... -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:48:12 (GMT)

Yves -:- Charles Cameron -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 15:35:48 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- 'A Life Well Hidden' is more like it -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:31:54 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- In a nutshell, from Charles' webpage, a quote from -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 15:46:28 (GMT)
__ __ Gellett Burgess -:- The Purple Cow -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:21:15 (GMT)

Way -:- 'Partial Premies'? - we need a new term -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 15:35:03 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Paraprems? Like Paralegals ... nt -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 17:35:59 (GMT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Paramhansa .. nt -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:11:04 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- 'Premoids'? And 'Believers'? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:49:16 (GMT)
__ Anon -:- 'Partial Premies'? - we need a new term -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 11:56:57 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- How can u honour a request like that? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 17:11:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Anon -:- How can u honour a request like that? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:50:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Anon, what's your family got to do with this? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:52:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- What's wrong with honour ? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:20:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What's wrong with honour ? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:08:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- What's wrong with honour ? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:30:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Anon -:- Hey thanx Bin Liner... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:55:42 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Waddabout 'half-monties?' (nt) -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:47:10 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- 'Partial Premies'? - we need a new term -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:13:17 (GMT)
__ __ NO Text -:- 'Partial Prems: how bout 'semi or demi' premies? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:45:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, that's got to be the best -- SEMI's -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:18:01 (GMT)
__ Eric -:- Wouldn't you like to know -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:44:54 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- They used to be called Bongos -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:05:44 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- I have a new respect for Bongos -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:09:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- thats the first respect i ever got for it! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:43:32 (GMT)
__ __ Herman -:- They used to be called Bongos -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:57:01 (GMT)

Yves -:- Rawat is invited to come to Montreal anytime -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:55:15 (GMT)

Yves -:- report to be aired on about huge yachts owners -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:00:16 (GMT)
__ Yo! Pick-up the phone. -:- Extract available on web -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:15:59 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- A toy on Rawat's wish list? -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:18:31 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Some Clarity On Dirt -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 12:21:18 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Gee, does he own a sailboat too? -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 12:49:47 (GMT)
__ Steven Quint -:- Further Thoughts On Dirt -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 12:26:16 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- Keep Your Hand Off My Tiller -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:33:00 (GMT)

Stonor -:- Also in the news ... OT -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 05:12:44 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- FA: I can see all of Stoners posts -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:51:26 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Correction. -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:54:43 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- Also in the news ... OT -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:33:08 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- I know, that's why I reposted it -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 15:12:41 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Also in the news ... (active link!) OT -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 05:19:39 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- EMPTY POST (For Brian !!!!) nt -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 07:29:09 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- FAs! tried reposting 3X - still empty. (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 05:21:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- FAs! 4th X - and I believe it will post. -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 05:50:16 (GMT)

Jim -:- Continuing the Palestinian and Israeli thread -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:30:29 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- I can't resist...Sorry....ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:45:23 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- No, they're not exploiting children, are they? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 03:26:56 (GMT)
__ TD -:- It's freaky being in the US while this is going on -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 15:33:40 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- The Israeli Lobby -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:40:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- The Israeli Lobby -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ TD -:- You've got to be kidding, right! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:05:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- So, now we're talking about foreign aid? -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:21:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- You missed my point entirely... -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:58:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I don't think so, but may have missed some... -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:37:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Yeah, but what was I 'advocating' Scott? -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:53:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Yeah, but what was I 'advocating' Scott? -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:39:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- You couldn't be more wrong -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:21:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- At least let me try... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:28:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Yeah, but what was I 'advocating' Scott? -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:15:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ TD -:- The Israeli Lobby - interesting Joe -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:20:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- The Israeli Lobby - interesting Joe -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:10:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good one, Joe -- very, very funny! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:26:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Come on, Jim.... -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:30:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, you come on -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:36:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- No, you come on -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:49:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Interesting Opinion -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:42:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The Israeli Lobby - interesting Joe -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:25:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ TD -:- The Israeli Lobby - interesting Joe -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:50:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The Israeli Lobby - interesting Joe -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:52:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Anti-somethingorother -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:57:18 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- God, TD, you're ruining my joke! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:10:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ TD -:- God, TD, you're ruining my joke! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:40:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I'm so glad this thread is over. -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:08:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What stereotype? (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:42:15 (GMT)

Jim -:- Continuing the Nader House Scandal Thread -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:28:28 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- The darkest of saintly pleasures... -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 04:47:55 (GMT)

shp -:- Comic and Tragedy: two sides of the same coin. -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:02:34 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Comic and Tragedy: two sides of the same coin. -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:14:02 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- I thought so too! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 05:38:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- I thought so too! -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:08:53 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- Comic and Tragedy: two sides of the same coin. -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:24:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Comic and Tragedy: two sides of the same coin. -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:47:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Gus Hall died recently nt -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:59:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Well if dead people can vote... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:03:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- I thought that only worked in Chicago... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:21:43 (GMT)

Q -:- I am so relieved to see -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 21:20:52 (GMT)

Yves -:- Hans also was fond of threesomes -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 20:26:52 (GMT)
__ Phiilp Huku -:- Hans also was fond of threesomes -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 07:54:34 (GMT)
__ AOA Ji -:- 3sums like the father the son & holi goast? nt -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 23:35:01 (GMT)
__ Eric -:- Eastern Culture -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 21:42:01 (GMT)
__ __ Anon -:- Eastern Culture -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 13:11:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Eric -:- Eastern Culture -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:06:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Undigested muck in your mind -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:42:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- great post (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:23:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- You know Eric..... -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:00:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- And an Anecdote -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:07:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- A reply -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:32:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- A reply -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:11:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Intangibles -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:54:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Intangibles -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:34:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Intangibles -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:10:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Don't understand the contradiction -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:39:25 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- What's wrong with Polygamy -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 10:09:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Eric -:- Consenting Adults -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:10:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Consenting Adults -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:06:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Attaboy Scott, wrt Consenting Adults -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:23:37 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Eastern Culture -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 04:54:06 (GMT)
__ __ Gordon Showcase -:- Eastern Culture -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 22:17:43 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- In 1975, we used to do work with homeless -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 20:56:05 (GMT)
__ __ janet of venice -:- please explain more -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:05:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- His name was Shankar -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 02:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ And On Anand Ji -:- bb: remember Frank? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 04:27:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Shankar and Frank -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:52:26 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- BTW, kidney and lung are not on the market anymore -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 20:38:44 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Hans had 2 wives; the first couldn't have kids (nt -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 20:38:37 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- I thought the first wife had 2 children too (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 10:11:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steven Quint -:- I thought the first wife had 2 children too (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 11:40:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet of venice -:- if she's alive--bbj's site has pictures -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:08:29 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Another Happy Expression -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 17:00:32 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Medical Emergency -:- Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 16:42:39 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Medical Emergency?? Try brain transplant -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 10:34:53 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- Medical Emergency?? Try brain transplant -:- Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 11:43:19 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:34:53 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Don't miss that old thread on the 'BEST OF' page!!
Message:
Another ex-PAM speaks out

For those who were not around 2 years ago.

and quite some other new old threads on that page.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:53:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: God, now I'm going to start reminiscing
Message:
Are we already into talking about the 'early days' in the anti-cult era?

Takes you back, though, doesn't it? Huh, g's mom?

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:50:52 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: i say we should--! pour it out! tell it all
Message:
as a latecomer to the forum and the site, i find it amazingly cleansing to find out other people's stuff. the reminiscing helps pull up the stuff and see it for what it was.in the 80'2, i did workshops with John Bradshaw, the famed recovery figure. i was also trying to root out my issues about grief and death, so i was reading the works of elisabeth kubler-ross. she had distilled the predictable phases of grief into five stages, which she titled, in order:denialbargainingangerdepressionacceptanceHowever, Bradshaw said that he had found, in his extensive work with thousands of attendees, that there was a sixth stage, that was absolutely essential to breaking through to healing. He added a step between depression and acceptance, and he labeled it “grieving”.he described it as letting go of the wall of control around one's feelngs and mental reservations, and finally allowing oneself to admit that “it really WAS that terrible”. His workshops were structured to help people reach back into that time and place when they were in their worst pain, and let it come. He had teams of trained professionals on hand, all around the hall, to be able to step forward and give genuine individual attention to anyone who might unleash torrents they couldnt handle alone. But the majority of the participants were relieved to be able to bring up the rivers of tears, and the emotions they had never permitted themselves to acknowledge, for years. We were glad to have a way to own it, to write about it, or to tell about it. Out loud, afterwards, he would encourage us to form circles with the people around us, and take turns, listening to each person speak of what had happened to them. connecting with the pain was a truth that was essential to being able to know reality again.he used to make humorous observations afterward, that this part of the work always alarmed the hotel staff where he held these, because they were'nt used to events where thousands of guests would be wailing and weeping and suffering so powerfully, and then would come out, looking so refreshed, when the doors opened for lunch! I tell you from personally trying it, sorrow never felt so good.so let the stories come. let the nostalgia play. we will never get through to new possibilities until all the stages have been gone through.actually, “new possibilites” is the seventh stage.and the stages apply to all losses and life changes--not just the loss of a person.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:17:38 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: i say we should--! pour it out! tell it all
Message:
Yes, but there is a psychological danger in the kind of 'get it all out 'week-end work shops. I had one such experience in a group retreat for sexual abuse survivors. It can leave a person open and raw and vulnerable if the support provided at the work shop is not adequate, and without continuing support, it can be harmful (meaning causing reactions ranging from inertia to mania or worse). I recommend having some one for on-going support before embarking on such intense examinations of one's life.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:54:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: I, for one, won't read that like that
Message:
Janet,

Paragraphs!

Space!

Punctuation!

Please!

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 17:28:40 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: If I didn't already know you are a lawyer,
Message:
I would have guessed immediately!

I have difficulty, too, in reading posts that don't have a lot of spaces, but it's because my eyes blurr up, you know, it's that late 40's reading impairment stuff.

Jim, you really are persnickety about these things, but I'm willing to bet it's your training as an attorney. I worked for a law firm once, and I was wondering, how do you work with your secretary, legal assistant, associate attorneys?

I'm saying this very lightheartedly, btw, because as the personnel director of that law firm I had to place many secretaries with fussy attorneys. I wonder how it is where you work, if it's not too personal, do you own your firm, are you a partner? Just curious, because I know that lawyers are all about language and words--you read and write--right??

While I find it difficult to read some of janet's posts, I make the effort, 1) because she has many, many constructive and insiteful (sp?) things to say; and 2) it's her style and I believe we should all be allowed to have our own styles.

That's all....
Best,
Cynthia

P.S. I'm not working on any more premie erotica...for now anyway...that one I did was more than enough for me......

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:52:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Well at least I'm not a lightbulb salesman
Message:
I'm saying this very lightheartedly, btw, because as the personnel director of that law firm I had to place many secretaries with fussy attorneys. I wonder how it is where you work, if it's not too personal, do you own your firm, are you a partner? Just curious, because I know that lawyers are all about language and words--you read and write--right??

I work with a firm that a buddy of mine started a few years ago. He's a really aggressive personality, great business sense and strong lawyer. He's got a partner that heads up the family side. Kevin heads up the crim side of the firm and there are about 10 lawyers altogether in the office. I'm not a partner but I've got a kind of partner-like arrangement autonomy and money-wise.

For years before I was just on my own. When I started talking about Maharaji on the net I was working out of my apartment here in Chinatown, Victoria. Everything was all mixed together, my work life, my personal space. This arrangement's a lot better.

While I find it difficult to read some of janet's posts, I make the effort, 1) because she has many, many constructive and insiteful (sp?) things to say; and 2) it's her style and I believe we should all be allowed to have our own styles.

Oh yeah, I agree. But it's a balancing, isn't it? Mutual respect, that's what I'm all about.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:40:43 (GMT)
From: a0aji 10010101110101
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well at least I'm not a lightbulb salesman
Message:
It's about solipsism too -- I don't care enough about the reader so I make them do some of the editing.

White space is cheap to come by, and the reading experience is universal. Everyone I talk to says they hate to read on a computer display. They may not be able to articulate it, but one of the things that relieves some of the burden of reading on a terminal is to add appropriate amounts of white space.

It is also one of the very most common complaints, right up there with TYPING IN ALL CAPS. It's bad manners, and it's not style. It is the complete lack of style, actually. :)

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:36:06 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: i did. server is dropping my html tags
Message:
something is very f'd up today. i am taking extra care to parse my posts and the server is behaving strangely. what goes up on the board is not what i am being shown in my previews. my editings between screens are not registering in subsequent versions. i am addressing my comments to people in the to: line and they are showing up on the board as adressed to someone else. I'm pissed. go kick the server. leave me alone. when you know the whole story, i accept your apology in advance.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:05:48 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: aw, gee-Mr.persnickety doesnt like it..tsk
Message:
and i was specifcally thinking of you when i went back and paragraphed and proofed it. my little heart is just crushed to be so chastised.well shit, Master--i guess i will just have to try harder to make my every waking minute dedicated to earning your being pleased with me.what do you think i am, jim--your devotee or something??go take a nice warm enema for yourself. you'll feel soooo much better.really. you will! i promise!
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:22:29 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: jim
Subject: what it looked like b4 i hit enter--ok??
Message:
as a latecomer to the forum, and the site, i find it amazingly cleansing, to find out other people's stuff. the reminiscing helps pull up the stuff and see it for what it was.
in the 80'2, i did workshops with John Bradshaw, the famed recovery figure. i was also trying to root out my issues about grief and death, so i was reading the works of elisabeth kubler-ross.
she had distilled the predictable phases of grief into five stages, which she titled, in order:
denial
bargaining
anger
depression
acceptance

However, Bradshaw said that he had found, in his extensive work with thousands of attendees, that there was a sixth stage, that was absolutely essential to breaking through to healing.
He added a step between depression and acceptance, and he labeled it 'grieving'.
He described it as letting go of the wall of control around one's feelngs and mental reservations, and finally allowing oneself to admit that 'it really WAS that terrible'.
His workshops were structured to help people reach back into that time and place when they were in their worst pain, and let it come. He had teams of trained professionals on hand, all around the hall, to be able to step forward and give genuine individual attention to anyone who might unleash torrents they couldnt handle alone. But the majority of the participants were relieved to be able to bring up the rivers of tears, and the emotions they had never permitted themselves to acknowledge, for years. We were glad to have a way to own it, to write about it, or to tell about it.
Out loud, afterwards, he would encourage us to form circles with the people around us, and take turns, listening to each person speak of what had happened to them. connecting with the pain was a truth that was essential to being able to know reality again.
He used to make humorous observations, afterward, that this part of the work always alarmed the hotel staff where he held these, because they were'nt used to events where thousands of guests would be wailing and weeping, and suffering so powerfully, and then would emerge, looking so refreshed, when the doors opened for lunch!
I tell you from personally trying it, sorrow never felt so good.
so let the stories come. let the nostalgia play. we will never get through to new possibilities, until all the stages have been gone through.
actually, 'new possibilites' is the seventh stage.
and the stages apply to all losses and life changes--not just the loss of a person.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 04:13:04 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Stop twice at the next one.
Message:
Janet:

That's OK. I seem to recall something like that happening to me. I think it was when I tried to paste in formatted text or something. The line breaks got clobbered, and other formatting changed in strange ways.

DO
A
COUPLE
OF
POSTS
LIKE
THIS
AND
YOU'LL
MAKE
UP
FOR
IT

And everything will be back to normal.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:34:31 (GMT)
From: Stuart M
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Thing's are as they are - get on with it...
Message:
...so, apart from the odd witty remark here and there, most input to this forum seems to be people sharing rationalised paranoia. If you don't want to practice knowledge, don't practice. That simple. Living in the baggage of negation of m & k is a negative spiral of self destructive emotion.
So, keep with the adventure of it all, and either practice or don't practice. What value is it to negate Maharaji? The 'zen' of the situation is surely, to proceed on with your journey and find what you are looking for. Stay with the overall plot.
Stuart M

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:10:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Stuart M
Subject: You mean 'let the dead bury their dead'? ...
Message:
... and sod the grieving process?

And as for the 'Zen' of it, could you try to take on the idea that the journey is proceeding, has led us here, and we have found something that, even if we weren't looking for it, is fulfilling its purpose, though not necessarily in the way that you think it should.

Stay with the plot, you say?

WAKE UP!

You patronising git.


(that zen enough for you?)

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 13:11:46 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Stuart M
Subject: Thing's are as they are - get on with it...
Message:
No it is not that simple.

Your revealingly insubstantial and simplistic attempt to dismiss the substantial issues that are often discussed here seems to amount to no more than a taunt. No positive input.

It would be more polite and sensible to engage in sensible defence of your values and beliefs rather than to poke your head in here briefly merely to let off your own 'self-destructive emotions'. But then do you have something to lose by partaking in rational discussion? Maybe you need to post here so condemningly just to convince yourself that what goes on here is negative- so as you can continue your own rationale unchallenged, and still pat yourself on the back - 'I looked in at the ex-premie forum - even posted there myself- just a bunch of whiners'.

Yes I know that kind old after thought of Maharaji's, 'if you don't like it walk' - leave us alone in other words! Well I think we are getting on with it in our own way too of course. Your post seems calculated merely to give yourself the satisfaction of reinforcing your own self-righteousness. It is not a socially constructive comment from a loving person, rather the condescending jibe of a self-congratulating fool who assumes he is on the right track in life whilst closing his mind to doubt.

Personally I received no help from the Premie Camp in addressing the condractions that I noticed about Maharaji and Knowledge. At least here I realise that I was not alone and these things can be discussed without the very obvious reluctance of premies to do so. A reluctance that could well be described as paranoiac on occasion.

So if this is 'rationalised paranoia' then equally, many premies could be accused of displaying 'irrational paranoia'. Which is worse?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:02:08 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Stuart M
Subject: Thing's are as they are - get on with it...
Message:
Read my four messages above entitled 'Don't Hold Me Back'.

What kind of bullshit are you releasing? You know the hell I've been through from being caught in the most demonic trap imaginable.

Has your soul evaporated from being an instructor of the great devil?

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:37:03 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Stuart M
Subject: Thing's are as they are - get on with it...
Message:
Hello Stuart M:

You said: Living in the baggage of negation of m & k is a negative spiral of self destructive emotion.

You are quite wrong Mr. M. I don't believe you can understand the concept of healing from leaving a cult because you are in a cult. That's the difference in your perspective and ours. In addition, what you call our 'spiral of self-destructive emotion' is, in fact, healthy, honest discord, not censorship. We are allowed to question and disagree here.

Tthe 'baggage of negation of m & k' include the emotional, spiritual, physical, and yes, sexual abuse of premies, way back when. No competent psychologist would recommend that we just 'swallow it.' Baggage in an emotional sense, is meant to be unpacked. It hurts a lot sometimes, especially when a premie comes and tells us to 'get a life.'

I'm curious, was it Michael Dettmers posts here that caused you to write? When did you receive Knowledge? Do you care to have a civil discourse about m & k with a mutually honest exchange?

We have realized that:

a) Maharaji is a fraud;

b) Maharaji and his cult fit all the dynamics of a personality cult;

c) Because many of us were around during his first 5 years in the U.S and Europe, many of our lives were deeply emersed in 'Maharaji's Lord of the Universe World,' we feel particularly betrayed by his revisionism and censorship, not to mention his refusal to acknowledge today what he portrayed himself as then (and we believed him); and

d) I, as many others here want to inform the public, as well as premies, about the truth behind Maharaji's lies, how he obtained his wealth, and perhaps protect the innocent from becoming engaged with him.

What say you? Can we discuss it? Why did you come?

Sincerely,

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:36:57 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: randers112@hotmail.com
To: Stuart M
Subject: Thing's are not as they seem....
Message:
In which category would you place your own 'input', Stuart? Witty remark or rationalised paranoia?

Or maybe cult apologist, fringe premie riddle, happy clapper claptrap?

Since you ask, the value to 'negate maharaji' is to provide a perspective from outside of the cult, which we know has been a great help to both premies and interested persons alike. Where else are the unspoken issues surrounding Prem Rawat and Elan Vital discussed? Certainly not on either of their websites.

Many thousands of people do in fact just stop practising knowledge and move on, without ever visiting or contributing to this forum. However, some of us are a little more public-spirited than that, and wish to assist others in extricating themselves from the cult, and to that end we provide the support and insider information which can help.

Having responded to your question, perhaps you'd be willing to answer one yourself? What brings you to this forum, and why do you object to the views expressed here? Surely the 'zen' of your situation is proceed with your own journey and obey your Master's mandate to stay away from here?

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:12:59 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Stuart M
Subject: Well said
Message:
I could not agree more.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:37:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stuart M
Subject: Now that was VERY helpful! Thank you, Stuart!
Message:
Thanks for filling us in on the zen of the situation, Stu.

Good one.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:59:27 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: stuart
Subject: read my above post on pouring it out
Message:
heres a zen thought for ya--whatever you give, you get.next time you have a loss, i predict--someone just as caring and feeling and thoughtful will likewise rape your sensibilities and show you equal understanding. payback is hell, ain't it?karma works wonders.snicker
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:49:36 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: I am sorry about this on, Jim!
Message:
Re-read the post and saw the 'will likewise rape your sensibilities' that you wrote, that I missed during the first reading. Geez, I'm sensitive today!
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:57:08 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: 'One' not on. I'm going to clean the bathroom!
Message:
Enough of this shit! My own included!!!
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:10:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Yeah, I REALLY buy that
Message:
Thanks for the new-age curse.

But what are you so pissed off about? I just asked you to make your posts more readible. If your 'stream of consciousness' is so fragile that it doesn't extend as far as the 'enter' button, then that's too fragile for me.

Sorry about the rape, by the way. These things happen.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:47:51 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ..sigh..no, jim. it was stuart i was addressing
Message:
your ego must be monumental--emphasis on the mental. stuart starts a thread with a callous, invalidating, dismissive remark, to a gathering of people who obviously have a tremendous amount of confusion to work out, those people jump all over his shit, including me, and because the server posts my response behind yours, not his, in the thread, you take the curse meant for him as being aimed at you.
oh jim,jim,jim...what are we gonna do with you?

you're like a dog that doesnt know when to bark and when not to. you go after everything!

did i hit a nerve, maybe? did the shoe fit so well you were convinced it was for you?

if so, then karma does indeed work.ok then. it was for you.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 17:02:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: No, my mistake entirely
Message:
What really happened, Janet, is that I just got this post mixed up with another. I thought I was replying to something else. My ego? Try my confusion.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:23:13 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I can't believe the callousness of this remark!
Message:
Jim said:'Sorry about the rape, by the way. These things happen.'

Is that the way you show caring? Or apologize?

You owe an apology to anyone who has been raped, including me! 'These things happen.'

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:31:15 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: do you mean his, or mine-or stuart's?
Message:
see what happens when one person starts a mood? everything just creates more of itself, ya know. that's a metaphysic.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:44:39 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I quoted what I meant and my mood got derailed
Message:
by it! Yeah Stuart's was callous, too. Here I go stepping into reaction again over what someone said to someone else (that I don't understand) because it set me off. I don't even know if you were raped, but if you were it is a callous remark which is similar to the reaction I got from a premies in charge when I was raped...they did not know what to say or do so it was like ...these things happen. It was not enough, I'm afraid. And what was that comment doing in this thread anyway. Did I really miss something????
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:53:15 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: I quoted what I meant and my mood got derailed
Message:
Dear Carol,

Sorry to interject here, but I, too, had an experience of indifference when I was at DECA. It wasn't as severe as a sexual assault, what happened is this:

I usually had a car because I kept odd hours. One night I drove back to the Broadripple to pick up some clean clothes for me and my roommate. As I was driving back to the COMPLEX, I was on the off-ramp from the interstate (it was a very dangerous time in Miami, race riots, Castro had release prisoners and mental patients to the US), a creepy looking guy came up to my car from the bushes, opened my door with a towel over his head and a big pipe (or gun, don't know) and tried to pull me out.

I slammed the door shut, fortunately all the other doors in the car were locked, threw the car into reverse, sped around the two cars ahead of me, ran the red light, while my life flashed before me. I may have run the guy over--don't know.

It was 10:30 pm and when I returned to the COMPLEX, I immediately told security and all they did was shrug and said 'well, you made it back.' I was nonplussed to say the least. It was an experience I'll never forget...one in which I KNEW I would have been killed had I not escaped. In retrospect, I wonder how they would have dealt with someone dying while working on that project. It was obvious they weren't about to call the police.

I'm sorry you experienced that indifference back then. Believe me, I don't minimize those things.

Be well,
Cynthia

PS I hope I didn't trigger you.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:52:57 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: No trigger, no gun (hypothetical) either
Message:
It's ok, really I don't want anyone to walk on eggshells or anything! For everything....I have a naturally passive inclination and have mabe been too ready to give easy excuses to people who cause harm through either indifference or bad choices.
They are were only human: without a clue, pre-occupied, self-involved, or uncaring. And because I have been those ways at times, I just try to have some acceptance and compassion for human frailty, or else have to condemn myself along with anyone else I condemn. A dilemna, for sure.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:38:03 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: No, you didn't miss something
Message:
This forum is an uncaring place and I suspect that although you have posted your journey you are not quite accepted here, yet.

Keep on keeping on, I guess.

Tonette

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 06:19:21 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I come and go since about 2 1/2 years
Message:
Most folks here are accepting. I have gained in assertiveness and made many friends and am getting re-aquainted with a few I used to know. I have stuck my foot in my mouth more than once. It is a humbling experience! Sometimes have wished I could erase something I've sent, but then I can't benefit from the humility I feel later!

I stopped seeing a psych doctor last July and have been doing quite well. This is a form of therapy to me. Sort of like journaling with feedback that sometimes bites. It is all Ok. I learn more about myself all the time. I think my ideas and the revealing of slices of life experience sometimes have had a positive impact on others. Makes it worth the occasional pain. I believe that I can be, with examination and practice, in control of my reactions to experiences instead of my emotions controlling me. I was lead by my emotions and reactions into many situations with results I'd not like to repeat.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:36:10 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: I come and go since about 2 1/2 years
Message:
Hi Carol
Thanks for the howdy here on the forum a few days ago. SOrry I didn't respond then, I was too busy reading the posts where you told Jim 'fuck you' and I was laughing too hard.

Glad to hear you're doing well. Gaining in assertiveness is always a good thing IMO! My first guru told me not to assert myself. Hello, what universe was he living in? Maybe if I were living in his ashram, okay, but out here in the 'world,' passivity equals DEAD! Especially on the DC beltway every day where I would be smooshed in no time flat!!

I think my former Guru (the one before M) liked his women nice and passive cause it turns out he was sleeping with at least one. Helps if they're not assertive and you feel a bit horny, eh???

Gotta go take me doggie for a hike--
Take care
Helen

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:30:55 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: on assertiveness
Message:
Good to hear from you,no excuses necessary.

Here's part of a forward I go in email today:

I've learned that you shouldn't go
through life with a catcher's mitt on both hands.
You need to be able to throw something back.

Carol

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 06:52:07 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: You're like the Helen
Message:
She wrote much the same thing. She comes here and doesn't expect anything.

If I could only adopt your perspective! Kudos! In all sincerity.

I am learning and adjusting too. I am much too volatile and fragile to be at peace here. I've got to get a hold of some of this shit that this forum (thank you very much) has stirred in me. The emotions have to go. After all, although emotions are a very real part of me they are a very poor 'guiding light' shall we say.

I appreciate your post. I only hope someone doesn't come along and discredit us! This forum is a TRIP!

Love, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:26:33 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: It doesn't matter what others may say
Message:
And it is a trip, what a long strange trip it's been.....
And I get by with a little help from my friends.....

I was posting here after a long absence as Who Cares and Mrs. who cares, etc. about a month ago. I started out pissed at the way some folks were doing the old put-down and name calling and ended in a different place, feeling better and having had my say, too.

I left again for a few weeks. I realize when I come here, after absences, it causes an adjustment of my mood or energy. I think I come here to get it: a change. It works, or else it coincides with changes that are happening in me anyway which incline me toward writing. Sometimes when my mood is low, I come just to communicate because I don't have the energy to do anything else or because I just need to try to communicate to find out what is going on in me. I end up knowing myself better and having good exchanges with some people in the process.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:02:27 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: I know I'm sick
Message:
But perhaps its all those years I spent in ashram celebacy with only ashram premie sisters for company. Now its all coming out - the whole sick mess that I am. Anyway

Click here to see sisters in his love

but be warned, this might not please a few people.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:48:12 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I know I'm sick....you're not sick....
Message:
you're very funny.

BTW, the only thing that made me sick was the one link that lead me to the actual whatsup page. I though you were going to take me back to the 'truth page' like all the others.

Thanks for the extra cookies!

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 15:35:48 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Charles Cameron
Message:
Charles Cameron is the author of a paperback published in 1973 by Penguin books titled 'WHO IS GURU MAHARAJ JI?' I just invited him to join us and share information.

For instance. In his book, some wished was never published, he clearly establishes Rawat's divinity. Since Rawat denies ever having made such non-sensical statement as to bring anyone to think he is divine, I would like to be told how the subject was brought about then. I'll wait a little.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:31:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: 'A Life Well Hidden' is more like it
Message:
Although Cameron calls his life 'well worn' one has to marvel at his resume. First, there's the irony of his involvement in the 'Centre for Millenial Studies.' I mean, what does Charles tell them about his FIRST Millenial project?

Then there's his spiritual background stuff which mentions buddhists and Native American spiritual leaders but omits the man Cameron's book shouted to the world to join 'six million' Happy Clappers in acclaiming as the 'greatest incarnation of God that ever trod the face of this planet.'

Funny, too, that Charles mentions his OTHER Maharaji cult books:

The Inner Game of Music. Barry Green and W Timothy Gallwey. Application of Inner Game principles to coaching and learning of music. Called in to ghost write final version. Doubleday, 1986.

Also wrote 6 Inner Game of Music Workbooks, 1991-94.

which, I guess, can still make him a buck unlike the aforementioned 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?'

When I was living in L.A., I looked Charles up in the mid eighties to ask his opinion of Maharaji. I never knew him personally and, frankly, I always thought his humour a little too pun-oriented and silly for my liking. But, still, I wanted his opinion.

He just gobbledygooked me. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah .... without saying much of anything. You know, just a lot of new-agey relativism and stuff. Mind you, Charles didn't even know who I was, just some faceless premie calling for his great opinion. I remember trying to get some straight answers out of the guy but he wouldn't give them. That was that.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 15:46:28 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: In a nutshell, from Charles' webpage, a quote from
Message:
A quote from Charles Mortimer

And so it's all explained at last,
There's nothing more to know.
Chameleons are pink and fast
Because they're green and slow

Who is Charles Mortimer?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:21:15 (GMT)
From: Gellett Burgess
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: The Purple Cow
Message:
I never saw a Purple Cow,
I never hope to see one;
But I can tell you, anyhow,
I'd rather see than be one.

posted by JohnT

Something found at this url


Padre Pio-The Stigmatist

By: Carty, Charles Mortimer // Introduction by Ward, Barbara // Preface by Nelson,
Thomas A.
Trade Paper//Illustrated
311 pages
Publication Date: January 1992
Publisher: Tan Books & Publishers Inc.

http://www.opengroup.com/rkbooks/089/0895553554.shtml

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 15:35:03 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Partial Premies'? - we need a new term
Message:
I think that our ex-premie lexicography is incomplete. There is a certain kind of poster on this Forum for whom we have no term. We have exes and premies and PWKs and even a couple 'never-premies,' but that leaves this other category - the premies who post here and say things that Mr. Rawat would never ever say.

Here are a few examples from the last few days:

'The spin on Elan Vital is just as bad as the spin of political candidates.'

'You can be a murdering sado masochist and still experience Knowledge because Knowledge does not need any moral code.'

'Whether or not you attend Maharaji's video or satellite programs is irrelevant, because how you feel inside is what it is all about.'

I am familiar enough with Mr. Rawat's teachings to know that he would strongly disagree with all these statements. There have been many more such statements by 'supposed premies.'

And then there is the basic consideration that Maharaji has made his feelings known for a long time now that he does not want premies expressing their own personal opinions about Knowledge. Last April he expressed how upset he was about all the damage that the instructors had done by misrepresenting the Master's Knowledge, and that no one can be trusted to speak accurately except the Master himself, thus the constant need for videos and satellites.

It is often difficult to argue with these 'premies' because they are slippery little guys who move back and forth across the whole range of philosophical possibilities, often directly contradicting Mr. Rawat in the process.

Of course premies close to Maharaji would never ever post here at all. They know their Master's wishes well enough to know that they should never presume to appoint themselves defenders of the Master. What presumption!

All these 'semi-premies' who post here are wearing rose colored glasses when it comes to Mr. Rawat. To give one example - the recent post about elitist attitudes and hierarchy. This was talked about as if Mr. Rawat is immune from such class distinctions. As if!! I remember well wearing those same rose-colored glasses, hoping that I could go to the Residence where everyone would be peaceful and harmonious and manifesting the unity of all beings. I made it to the Residence, last visit in 1996. Hierarchy at the Residence is every bit as bad as in Henry VIII's court or at the palace of the King of Siam. Premies are told that under no circumstances are they to speak to the children. When Marilyn comes around, you speak only if your service requires it. And the Residence regulars treat you like invaders.

So what are we to call these posters who dare to have their own point of view, and who even express it? What can we say to them when they call themselves premies but say things that even Mr. Rawat would cringe at? 'Partial Premie' just doesn't quite capture all the aspects of their nature. 'Semi-manmots' is too Hindi. 'Part-timers' is too vague. 'People With Knowledge Who Contradict Maharaji' is way too long.

Oh well, you know who you are. Or do you?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 17:35:59 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Paraprems? Like Paralegals ... nt
Message:
mmmmmm
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 18:11:04 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: ne1
Subject: Paramhansa .. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 15:49:16 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: 'Premoids'? And 'Believers'?
Message:
Premoids are, of course, the quasi-premies. Believers are the trapped monkeys, the only-one-way-and-it's-m crowd ...

Then I saw his face
Now I'm a believer
Not a trace
Of doubt in my mind

Then of course there are the PAMs, some of whom are perhaps cynical and knowing accessories to the fraud. I can't imagine what we should call those.

:^)

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 11:56:57 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: 'Partial Premies'? - we need a new term
Message:
I made it to the Residence, last visit in 1996. Hierarchy at the Residence is every bit as bad as in Henry VIII's court or at the palace of the King of Siam. Premies are told that under no circumstances are they to speak to the children. When Marilyn comes around, you speak only if your service requires it. And the Residence regulars treat you like invaders.

I met a premie who must have violated this edict and who spoke with one of M's kids who apparently privately said ' it's a cult isn't it?'

This was a private conversation that the premie asked me not to repeat lest it resulted in her being banned from such illustrious company. (since she was obviously keen to ingratiate himself with M's family) I think I have given little enough away to have dishonoured this request, however I think it goes to show that even Maharaji's children have at some time questioned their dad's bizarre job! It's one of those things that you are told as a 'secret' but it's hard to sit on such facts. I am a bit sick of being told these things and then sworn to secrecy.
Your Court analogy is apt.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 17:11:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: How can u honour a request like that?
Message:
Anon,

I'm sorry but I don't see it. Some premie tells you something that's arguably important and unique to date. I don't recall any other comments from the kids about their father being a cult leader and how they saw it. But this premie wants to burrow herself deeper into the cult so, out of respect for her wishes, you'll sit on the disclosure, or water it down is more like it, so she can advance deeper into the belly of the beast.

I guess that's one of the virtues of being 'Anon', isn't it? Makes it easier to fool people, hide your real thoughts when you want to. Why, I bet you could even support her addiction to some extent and she'd never know you were laughing behind her back. I envy you.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:50:05 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: How can u honour a request like that?
Message:
I just can't bring myself to let my friend down in this instance. Sorry. Maybe it is pathetic. I am not laughing behind her back, I am rather sorry that I even mentioned it. I agree that it is quite telling that one of M's kids thinks or once thought (I really don't know the details) that it was a cult and that's why I could not resist saying it. Maybe I should shut up or put up.

I suppose that I also feel that it's not exactly 'cricket' to make M's kids suffer for their father's sins by mentioning them by name so they can be seen as'traitors'. I don't think that they are answerable for Maharaji's actions.

I don't recall that I have hidden my real thoughts here, only my identity. That has been arguably advantageous but cowardly. I agree and I thank you for remiding me. You're right. (although I maintain that there are some other reasons for me being anonymous - which are more about protecting keeping my family out of this)

Maybe I don't have enough courage to 'come out'. I am not very well tonight (flu) and I feel pretty ashamed and cowardly to be remaining anon to boot. Anyway who needs my poxy revelations when Michael Dettmers is on a roll?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:52:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Anon, what's your family got to do with this?
Message:
You mention protecting your family as a reason for posting anonymously.

Why would you say that? You're not worried that your kids will have a hard time getting their won smart cards when they grow up if the cult knows who's their daddy, are you? What are you talking about?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:20:03 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's wrong with honour ?
Message:
Hey , give the guy a break would you.

A promise not to betray a confidence isn't something to be flattened for.

Now we know something new , thanks to Anon.

Anyone who has 1st hand 'gossip' from the inner circle isn't going to be encouraged to come forward if they immediately have to come nose to nose with the Spanish fucking Inquisition.

Try & give up the day job when you're relaxing in front of the keyboard.


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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:08:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: What's wrong with honour ?
Message:
Who said anything about Anon promising to keep a secret?

What secret?

All we know is that some premie who's trying to get even closer to Maharaji told Anon something juicy and he's concerned about doing something that might frustrate her sick ambition.

He got it. Don't know why you don't.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:30:23 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's wrong with honour ?
Message:

Just don't lose the plot.

Best wishes.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:55:42 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Hey thanx Bin Liner...
Message:
I was feeling pretty miserable till you said that.

There is nothing more noble in life than the humble Bin Liner.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:47:10 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Waddabout 'half-monties?' (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:13:17 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: 'Partial Premies'? - we need a new term
Message:
Way:

'The spin on Elan Vital is just as bad as the spin of political candidates.'

'You can be a murdering sado masochist and still experience Knowledge because Knowledge does not need any moral code.'

'Whether or not you attend Maharaji's video or satellite programs is irrelevant, because how you feel inside is what it is all about.'

I am familiar enough with Mr. Rawat's teachings to know that he would strongly disagree with all these statements. There have been many more such statements by 'supposed premies.'

Most of this looks like fairly conventional premiespeake to me. Some might qualify as 'lapsed premies' which is about the only term we use other than premie and ex. There are clearly a number of people who are rather ambiguous about Maharaji, like Keith. They vascilate a lot, and sometimes come across as premies and other times as exes. I'm comfortable with not having a label for them, if we recognize that our mutually exclusive labelling system is not entirely adequate, and that some people simply fall outside the nomenclature. Maybe 'barnacled premies?' Just takes awhile for the barnacles to fall off once they drop anchor in fresh water.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:45:31 (GMT)
From: NO Text
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: 'Partial Prems: how bout 'semi or demi' premies?
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 19:18:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: NO Text
Subject: Yes, that's got to be the best -- SEMI's
Message:
I'm going to use it. And, as far as I'm concerned, the word applies to Dog, Eric, Blue Max, little shppie, any of the ones who ever claims that they took what they wanted and left the rest.

They're just semi's.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:44:54 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Wouldn't you like to know
Message:
Touche .... (French, typo limitation)
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:05:44 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: They used to be called Bongos
Message:
I well remember driving around with ashram premies and a couple of 'security' premies, visiting people on the local bongo list to give them satsang. They'd be the ones with pictures of Jesus, Buddha and Timothy Leary next to Maharaji on the Wiccan Alter!! They would just laugh at us and offer us a hit on their joints. Man I should have accepted!
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:09:21 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: I have a new respect for Bongos
Message:
I think they took it all with a grain of salt, something I could have used.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:43:32 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: thats the first respect i ever got for it!
Message:
i was called a bongo premie! wow. thanks susan. it reaLLY lifts my head to be told i'm respected for it.my problem was i was just too f'g intelligent.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:57:01 (GMT)
From: Herman
Email: None
To: All Exes
Subject: They used to be called Bongos
Message:
How'z it doin'?

This is definitely more like it. Nothing better than getting on your high horse about all this shit that goes on around us every day!Bongos, honches, partial. Cultural sex, What will be next. That Fucking fat Indian has got more than me the Bastaard. And he has sex.

When is the next event???

Hey this could be the S-Ex Premie WWW.

Herman.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:55:15 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rawat is invited to come to Montreal anytime
Message:
I won't spend traveling money to voice my comments hoping to make front-page news. Chances are he'll go around. He probably realized by now, he should concentrate on third-world places where communities of ex-premies aren't active or retire.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:00:16 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: report to be aired on about huge yachts owners
Message:
Tonight, friday. French CBC. 9 PM eastern time. Program: Zone libreSubject: mega yachts and their owners. Exctracts may be available on the web tomorrow. Don't miss it if you understand a little French.

There was to be a report about RAWAT on Dateline. Was it a) a joke b) yet to come or c) already broadcast?

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:15:59 (GMT)
From: Yo! Pick-up the phone.
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Extract available on web
Message:
Extract IS available on web. I just found-out. Zone libre
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:18:31 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Yo! Pick-up the phone.
Subject: A toy on Rawat's wish list?
Message:
. The Phoenix 1000

Estimated price: $78 million

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 12:21:18 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Some Clarity On Dirt
Message:
Please see www.enjoying.life.org electronic times section (click on October 2000 Barcelona - the link doesn't work directly), for some clarity on this most vital topic.

As an aspiring journalist, I am alwasy happy to find other sources if they are enlightening.

Steve

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 12:49:47 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Gee, does he own a sailboat too?
Message:
Why bother with a sailboat when he has a yacht he can drive directly into the promised land?
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 12:26:16 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Further Thoughts On Dirt
Message:
Could you imagine the defendant in a murder trial telling the jury that their acts were justified because they are analogous to dirt from which all things grow?

Steve

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:33:00 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Keep Your Hand Off My Tiller
Message:
From The October 2 Talk In Barcelona Linked Above:

'Maharaji described the need for us to have a skilled crew to help sail the boat on our journey through life. That the navigator is 'clarity', the rigger, 'wisdom' and the hand on the tiller is that of the master. That we should trust the master, and enjoy this life through the Knowledge he gives us.'

Keep your fucking hand off my tiller, Maharaji. Just because there are no laws against psychic rape doesn't make it right.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 05:12:44 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Also in the news ... OT
Message:
Australian Scientists and underwear and other important information for the perpetuation without infestation of the species.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:51:26 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: FA: I can see all of Stoners posts
Message:
if that is any help.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:54:43 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Correction.
Message:
JMk is right. Can not see that post.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 14:33:08 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Also in the news ... OT
Message:
Your link is wrong. You must have copied FORUM HELP without editiong the address.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 15:12:41 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: I know, that's why I reposted it
Message:
And yes, I didn't check, and that's what happened. I am surprised that the 1st post with the right link still hast come in, but the last post in this thread does have the right link, not that it's important ;-)
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 05:19:39 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Also in the news ... (active link!) OT
Message:
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 07:29:09 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: EMPTY POST (For Brian !!!!) nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 05:21:31 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: FAs
Subject: FAs! tried reposting 3X - still empty. (nt)
Message:
The link will come up in a few hours I think.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 05:50:16 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: all
Subject: FAs! 4th X - and I believe it will post.
Message:
Australian scientists and underwear and other important info for the perpetuation, without infestation, of the species.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:30:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Continuing the Palestinian and Israeli thread
Message:
Okay, that's enough of that
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 05:45:23 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I can't resist...Sorry....ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz
Message:
There will be hell to pay for this infraction!
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 03:26:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No, they're not exploiting children, are they?
Message:
From CBS:

CBS) Six-year-old Mohammed was thrilled when he heard his school would reopen after being closed for safety reasons stemming from clashes between Palestinians and Israeli security forces.

It was not that Mohammed wanted to learn something new. He simply saw going back to school as a chance to gather with other children to throw stones at Israeli soldiers after classes.

'I was waiting for my school to pelt the Israeli army with stones,' said Mohammed, who lives with his family in the West Bank city of Ramallah.

Mohammed is not alone. Palestinians are the youngest population in the world -- half of the Gaza Strip is under the age of 14, according to a 1999 U.N. study. And its large youth population has played a visible role in the latest cycle of violence. In fact, so many of the combatants are young that some have branded the conflict the 'teenagers war,' reports CBS News Correspondent Richard Roth.
The man charged with shaping those young minds is 40-year-old Marwan Barghouti, the leader of a youth movement called 'Tanzim,' or apparatus. Barghouti said the young are critical to the Palestinian movement, both as foot soldiers and as symbolic victims of Israeli aggression. 'I think our job is to continue in this intifada,' he told CBS News, 'to work, to continue, to strengthen this intifada.'

As more Palestinian children have taken part in the aggression, so too they have become casualties. A Palestinian health official says 11 children have died in the clashes and nearly one in every three wounded is a child.

Frequently repeated television footage showing the killing of 12-year-old Mohammed al-Durra during clashes in the Gaza Strip has made a deep impression on the Mohammed CBS News spoke to and many other young Palestinians.

Al-Durra died in his father's arms when they were caught up in clashes between Palestinian protesters and Israeli troops in the Gaza Strip just over a week ago. The Israeli army has acknowledged its soldiers apparently shot him.

'I don't care about my school any more,' Mohammed said. 'All I want is to get the Israeli soldier who killed him (al-Durra).'

Barghouti's call for an Intifada is finding an audience even among the youngest Palestinian children. 'Arabs and Jews' is a favorite war game. Children stand in lines opposite each other, carrying wooden rifles and hiding between rocks to act out their version of confrontations between Palestinians and Israelis.

In one such game, the 'Jewish team,' represented by six children, shouts at the 'Palestinian team' using some words in Hebrew, imitating Israeli soldiers.

'We will sacrifice our blood and soul for al-Aqsa,' seven-year-old Morad chants at the 'Jewish team,' referring to one of Islam's holiest shrines in Jerusalem.

The 'Israeli soldier' pretended to fire at Morad with their wooden rifles, held together with rope.

Clashes erupted after Israeli right-wing politician Ariel Sharon visited the al-Aqsa compound on September 28. The site is also sacred to Jews, who call it the Temple Mount.

'I am ready to die for al-Aqsa,' said Morad, whose elder brothers were jailed many times by Israel during the intifada, or uprising, against Israeli occupation of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank from 1987 to 1993.

He added: 'I prefer to die than to let Israel take al-Aqsa.'

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 15:33:40 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's freaky being in the US while this is going on
Message:
.... as you know that a lot of people are hesitant to come out and criticize Israel too much, publicly. I've seen it here where I'm currently working, in a sly conversation I had with a non-Jewish Norwegian colleague, who told me 'it's not worth getting into' while you're here, as she was battle weary after bringing it up with a Jewish colleague. Mind you there have been some great pieces by journalists here on the telly, especially about the child that was killed, which is good to see. But when they drag out ex-Israeli prime-ministers who say stupid things to defend shootings like 'rocks kill too you know'. Yeah right. I know what choice I'd take if I had to face a stone or a bullet.

It was interesting in the Presidential debate, that when asked the question about Israel, both said straight off that virtually 'we stand behind Israel 100%'. The thought went through my mind, in the future, what level or action would Israel have to go to, or commit before it ever did get dropped from the top aid-recipient country or the US stopped vetoing the UN in favour of Israel. Would ethnic cleansing do it? Bombing the fuck out of the Gaza Strip? And before you think I'm being melodramatic, just think of the fact that Israel 'occupied the territories' for so long. In any other country, that would be regarded as an invasion, like East Timor.

I missed the thread, but it is something I feel strongly about especially after having lived in Israel for 5 months before the Gulf War..... and when I stayed in the Muslim quarter of Jerusalem I couldn't believe how each Palestinian had to have their pass checked by Israeli soldiers when they went through and the whole intifada thing etc. This was so akin with the townships in South Africa, during apartheid. Needing passes in your own country, to have them validated by the occupying force before you can go back to your own home.

I never witnessed such an unbalanced attitude by the Israelis to the Palestinians, this absolute non-acknowledgement that their country had been plonked down upon an indigenous people and that the Palestinians had reason to be pissed off - especially as you see how small Palestine has become since after WWII with the ongoing encroachment.

Most countries who have a displaced people situation (Australia, US with the Native Americans) at least acknowledge that they displaced a people (they might not have dealt with it well, but at least they have since acknowledged it). Every Israeli I met couldn't get past the fact that this country was their 'god-given right' and bugger all Arabs. I couldn't believe how similar an attitude they all had. At the time, I thought a lot probably has to do with the compulsory Army training for men and women. 3 years of brainwashing to hate Arabs so much.

Bit like being in a cult really.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:40:50 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: The Israeli Lobby
Message:
It's probably the most powerful lobby on capitol hill. It seems to be headed up in the media by the New York Times, but a politician doesn't dare criticize Israel too much -- there is nothing to be gained from it. Most Americans aren't very interested in foreign policy, unless it's a war, or involves oil, or something like that, and those who care about the Middle East for other reasons, are mostly knee-jerk pro-Israel.

For a politician, to be critical of Israel is to be seen as Anti-Semetic, and the US corporate media is extremely bad at covering the issue, so most Americans are incredibly ill-informed. The Pacifica network is pretty good, and the BBC does a much more balanced job, in my opinion.

For example, recently Barak asked Ariel Sharon to come into his government. I think most Americans haven't a clue why asking someone widely seen as a war criminal into the government might not be much confidence building among the Palestinians. After all, it was his bombastic visit to the Jerusalem holy sites that set this current round of violence off, and if you recall in 1982, Sharon oversaw, allowed, and some say engineered, the massacre of thousands of Palestinian women and children in the refugee camps in Beirut. But the US media doesn't mention these things.

In the US media, although Isreal sometimes does things that are a little too extreme, they are basically seen as the good guys and the Palestinians are all terrorists. That's basically the spin in the US media, and part of the reason there is absolutely nothing to be gained for a politician, especially a presidential candidate, to criticize Israel, no matter what it does.

Unfortunately, it appears that what was left of the peace movement in Israel is now dead and we are heading for another long period of Intifada (sp?). I think Arafat has basically lost control because the Palestinians haven't seen anything benefitting them coming from the peace talks, and so there you have it. What is even more troubling is that it appears that the frustration is spilling over into other Arab countries. Even Saudi Arabia, which doesn't allow ANY demonstrations, had a rather large one the other day supporting the Palestinians.

Largely due to the billions funnelled in to Israel by the US, (over $3 billion annually) Israel is a first-rate military power, vastly suprerior to anything in the region, (it even has hundreds of nuclear weapons), but until something is worked out with the Palestinians, their military, while perhaps ensuring its state-existence, isn't going to be able to give the Israeli population peace.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:36:00 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Israeli Lobby
Message:
Joe:

I suggest that the dominant reason for the conspicous pro-Israeli stance is the simple fact that it's the only democratic state in the Middle East that tolerates (shares power with) an institutionalized internal opposition. You are a great advocate Joe, but I think this situation is only inflamed more by advocacy; and what's required is a wonkishly mundane policy perspective.

There doesn't seem to be any consensus within the opposition in Israel for the claim that Sharon is a 'war criminal,' although it's the only state in the region where such a claim *could* be made by the honorable opposition without serious reprisal. It is possible that Sharon was invited into the government in order to neutralize him as an opposition force to the current negotiations, or at least to diminish his disruptive influence. It's also not clear to me how much further Israel could go than to offer to share the city of Jerusalem as capital, or what would be acceptable to the Palestinians short of all jews in the Middle East simply pulling up stakes and becoming a wandering people again.

If you are going to state an advocacy position that's so transparent it would do worlds of good for your personal credibility if you'd also consider the one-sided position taken by the opposing advocates, however briefly, as your own. Very enlightening exercise.

--Scott 'increasingly disillusioned with lawerly argumentation' T.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:05:33 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: You've got to be kidding, right!
Message:
You said:

I suggest that the dominant reason for the conspicous pro-Israeli stance is the simple fact that it's the only democratic state in the Middle East that tolerates (shares power with) an institutionalized internal opposition.

So, based on this, they also get the most aid of any US recipient country, because they are the only democracy amongst a sea of non-democratic countries? Is that right. Hmmmm, so what about other democratic countries (say in parts of Africa or Asia) surrounded by non-democratic countries? Why do they miss out if this is the basis? Why can't Nigeria become No.1 recipient now since it's just become a so-called democracy.... and it's got oil too (just like Kuwait)!

Why don't other Western developed countries have Israel as No.1 recipient too, if it's in the interests of preserving democracy and peace in that region. There are a hell of a lot more countries in a worse state than Israel that could do with getting just a smidgeon of the cash thrown at Israel....

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:21:43 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: So, now we're talking about foreign aid?
Message:
TD:

You've changed topics. FA is complicated by our own national interests as well as our predisposition toward Lockean countries. Anyway, I'm not even saying that we aren't biased toward Israel, but if you're claiming that the democratic status of Israel is not *the dominant reason* behind our policy toward them then you're just not being realistic or pragmatic.

Nigeria's status as a democracy is precarious, and it's also a country where the con game has become institutionalized. We still have a national interest in supporting Nigeria, although it's neighbors don't appear to be as hostile as Israel's at the moment. This doesn't seem all that difficult to explain, does it? Do you really think I'm kidding? Do *you* explain all these billions of dollars supporting Israel by our innate fear of being labelled anti-semetic? You're kidding, right?

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:58:40 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: You missed my point entirely...
Message:
Just what do you think I am 'advocating' Scott? Perhaps you should say that, instead of arguing, which you often do, what you think I mean, rather than what I actually said. I don't think I took a position as to either side in the conflict, rather, I was suggesting to TD part of the reason why you don't hear much criticism of Isreal among politicians, or the press, in the USA.

There certainly is a segment of Israel society that sees Sharon as a war criminal, but my point was he is pretty much universally seen that way among the Palestinians, and much of the rest of the world, actually. I doubt you would disagree with that, either. What the media didn't point out very well, was why his possible coming into the government enflamed the Palestinians.

Sharon was invited into the government because Barak is so very weak that he needs some support to stay in power. He is a decidedly minority government right now and could be out of power at any moment. Fortunately, Sharon has rejected going into the government because he opposes even the very limited 'agreement' brokered by Clinton reached in Egypt this week.

I agree with TD, that things look very bleak in the region.

It's also not clear to me how much further Israel could go than to offer to share the city of Jerusalem as capital,

Unless you have information I don't, Isreal has not offered this, or anything other than a joing sharing of some of the Jerusalem suburbs, and then backed away from that. This was the major stumbling block in reaching an agreement, with Sharon's provactions in Jerusalem coming right in the middle of the discussions.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:37:22 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I don't think so, but may have missed some...
Message:
Joe:

If you state a one-sided position, supplying evidence for only one perspective, it is without ambiguity an 'advocacy.' I come from a management and policy background and am indoctrinated with the very different requirements for a 'briefing' or 'policy' paper, in which you try your best to state all relevant positions and provide evidence from as many sides as possible. I didn't miss your point, but other perspectives were conspicuous in their absence. I submit that this is not intentional on your part, but habitual. But it's not mine to judge whether that's the actual case or not.

It's also not clear to me how much further Israel could go than to offer to share the city of Jerusalem as capital,

Unless you have information I don't, Isreal has not offered this, or anything other than a joing sharing of some of the Jerusalem suburbs, and then backed away from that. This was the major stumbling block in reaching an agreement, with Sharon's provactions in Jerusalem coming right in the middle of the discussions.

Hmmm... This point was raised by several of the participants in the Nightline Townhall meeting, between Israeli and Palestinian leaders, by the mayor of Jerusalem (who was often pretty beligerent) and by a Jewish member of the Israeli parliament who favored dialogue. It was not contested either by Ms. Ashrawi or by an Arab member of the Israeli parliament who was also present, so I assumed it was true. The offer may have been rescinded now, I don't know, but it appears that it was rejected prior to that anyway.

Sharon was invited into the government because Barak is so very weak that he needs some support to stay in power. He is a decidedly minority government right now and could be out of power at any moment. Fortunately, Sharon has rejected going into the government because he opposes even the very limited 'agreement' brokered by Clinton reached in Egypt this week.

Well clearly this was part of it, but the formation of governments in pariamentary systems are always very complex. The fact that Sharon rejected the offer indicates to me that he saw the potential that he might be neutralized if he accepted, and I can't imagine why you use the term 'fortunately' here. But never mind, there's just too wide a chasm to overcome here. I see the dynamics of power sharing very differently than you, and there appear to be increasingly limitted options for Israel and Palestine, so there aren't going to be any 'feel good' breakthroughs for a very long time.

Let's put it this way, Sharon's refusal virtually ensures that a Netanyahu government is forthcoming, and Sharon will almost certainly be part of that. 'Fortunately' is not the word I'd have used.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:53:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Yeah, but what was I 'advocating' Scott?
Message:
I wasn't writing a policy paper, Scott. But I don't see where I took any side in the conflict, much as you might like to think I did. So, you've got a straw man chasing a straw man, which is fine if you want to do that.

Regarding what has or hasn't been offered regarding Jerusalem, well this was covered in the New York Times, in an analysis as to why the talks fell apart. Israel has not offered any kind of joint governance of Jerusalem to date, although, on the other hand, I can't say whether the Palestinians would accept it even if they did. It is (was) definitely the stickiest issue.

By the way, Hanna Ashwari has got to be one of the most respected Palestinian spokespersons. She has been extremely critical of Arafat at times, as well as critical of Israel.

Regarding Sharon, and his refusal to enter the government, I was just saying what Sharon said, publicly. He may, of course, have had other reasons. I use the word 'fortunately' because Sharon is a super-hard-liner, and is opposed to any form of negotiations with the Palestinians, and because his place in the government, in my opinion, would tend to just chrystalize positions and increase the violence.

And I wouldn't be so sure Sharon will be invited to be a part of any government (the US may well supply pressure here) or that he would become a part of it if he was invited. He may feel he is more powerful in preventing any form of negotiations from outside the government. Moreover, I wouldn't be so sure either that Barak will be out of power anytime soon.

But I agree, the options are definitely narrowing, again, unfortunately.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:39:15 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yeah, but what was I 'advocating' Scott?
Message:
Joe:

By the way, Hanna Ashwari has got to be one of the most respected Palestinian spokespersons. She has been extremely critical of Arafat at times, as well as critical of Israel.

Hanan Ashrawi was a fellow at the University of Virginia while I was getting my Ph.D. in the Virginia system. Her perspective is not always accurate, and is often far from flawless, but the Palestinians definitely need people like her. Indeed, they need a few more people like her in order to have any chance of building a Palestinian consensus for any peace agreement.

I don't get the Times. I subscribed once until I found that they were throwing my paper on the ground outside the front door of my 700 unit building, and refused to refund my subscription when I complained. I still find it inexplicable that this business of offering to share Jerusalem went uncontested by Palestinians during the frequently heated exchange on Nightline, and was mentioned on CNN and CNBC as well. I wonder if you have an online citation to the Times article?

As for what you're advocating, well pretty clearly you're advocating the Palestinian position. Whether or not you actually see that postion as unquestionably valid may be another matter. I think advocacy is a habit with lawerly types, and have to remind myself that they may not be expressing the entire breadth of their opinion.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:21:38 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: You couldn't be more wrong
Message:
As for what you're advocating, well pretty clearly you're advocating the Palestinian position.

This is absolutely not true, except perhaps in your own head. I have been avoiding taking any position here, because I think the situation is a lot more complicated than simply preferring one side over the other. In fact, I think that kind of a discussion goes nowhere. There are lots of factions on both sides, as Jim says, but I disagree with him that Israel's existence is even an issue anymore, mostly because of the reality of Israel's military power, backed up by the power of the US. It's silly to think Isreal is under any kind of realistic military threat that could threaten its existence.

But one thing I do in my line of work, Scott is to be very precise and careful in what I say. I'm not always successful, but since I make effort to do that, it can be irritating when people infer things that just aren't there, apparently just for the purpose of arguing.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:28:07 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: At least let me try...
Message:
Joe:

Well, in my defense I connected the dots. First TD says something like:

Most countries who have a displaced people situation (Australia, US with the Native Americans) at least acknowledge that they displaced a people (they might not have dealt with it well, but at least they have since acknowledged it). Every Israeli I met couldn't get past the fact that this country was their 'god-given right' and bugger all Arabs. I couldn't believe how similar an attitude they all had. At the time, I thought a lot probably has to do with the compulsory Army training for men and women. 3 years of brainwashing to hate Arabs so much.

Bit like being in a cult really.

and you respond by opening with:

It's probably the most powerful lobby on capitol hill. [The Israeli cult, you mean?] It seems to be headed up in the media by the [Zionist?] New York Times, but a politician doesn't dare criticize Israel too much -- there is nothing to be gained from it. Most Americans aren't very interested in foreign policy, unless it's a war, or involves oil, or something like that, and those who care about the Middle East for other reasons, are mostly knee-jerk pro-Israel.
For a politician, to be critical of Israel is to be seen as Anti-Semetic

So, are you just off on a tangent or have you implicitly agreed with TD's statement and are expanding on it? Since you're careful about what you say I concluded you're not off on a tangent, so...

...what's not to agree with, if you're a Palestinian I mean? It's all a matter of the hegemonic and racist culture of Israel and their enormous military and lobby power, which distorts the whole process so that peace just isn't possible because Israel is too powerful to deal fairly with a weak and (they believe) inferior people. And the Stoopeed Americain media, of course, is complicit in the whole scenario because we're psychologically debilitated about being labelled 'semiteophobic.' (Sorry about that. My knee jerked.) Still nothing a Palestinian would disagree with, but I'm to believe this isn't advocacy? Well, if you say so I guess. You've got the benefit of the doubt. But forgive me for being confused.

BTW, the citation for the Times article?

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:15:20 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yeah, but what was I 'advocating' Scott?
Message:
Joe:

He may feel he is more powerful in preventing any form of negotiations from outside the government.

Heh.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:20:31 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Israeli Lobby - interesting Joe
Message:
Interesting what you say about the politician's fear of criticizing Israel and being labelled anti-semitic. There is a bit of that in Aust as well, but not so much as here. That's such a tragedy, as for the majority of people outside of Israel/Palestine who contest it, it has nothing to do with Judaism or Islam, but basic human rights.

It was an interesting experience being in Israel while they were all kitting up for the Gulf War deadline. All the Israeli soldiers I'd chat to were just so incredibly confident and sure of their military might (not surprising with the donated figures that you just quoted). Some of them even joked, that they wished the US would just get out and let them finish it off properly, as they knew their army was better trained.

I agree with you about Arafat losing control. He does seem to have lost it a bit going on recent news reports - he's like the Middle East's Fidel Castro. And I think you're right about the peace process just dying. I can't see any brightness on the horizon at all.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:10:07 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: The Israeli Lobby - interesting Joe
Message:
Yes, I think Arafat may be about finished, which is a terrible situation, because then there is no one to negotiate with on behalf of the Palestinians. Then I think we have a kind of low-grade war. Right now, as part of the current agreement, Arafat has asked that the violence stop, but it looks like he is being ignored. From what I gather a large segment of the Palestinians think Arafat has sold them down the river. And it appears the Palestinians blame the United States.

I have a friend who just returned from Israel and the West Bank (she's head of the Middle East Childrens' Alliance). She said there are many more American flags being burned than Israeli flags in the demonstrations. I think the perception is that without US support, Israel would have settled with the Palestinians a long time ago.

I also think that much of the American public is weary of the Middle East, especially the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I think many people just see it as a chronic, low-grade, war that might well go on forever, and there just isn't anything you can do about it. In the US press, anything that happens there on the positive side, is seen as a kind of personal endeavor by the President, like when Carter hosted the peace treaty with Egypt, and the current 'summits' hosted by Clinton. Now that Clinton is nearly out of office, and given the current situation, it doesn't look like his diplomacy is having much results.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:26:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Good one, Joe -- very, very funny!
Message:
I think the perception is that without US support, Israel would have settled with the Palestinians a long time ago.

Yes that's exactly the problem. The Israelis wouldn't settle with the Palestinians.

Too much!

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:30:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Come on, Jim....
Message:
What I said was, the perception among the Palestinians is that the Israelis would have settled if the US wasn't funding them. That's why they are burning American flags. Do you disagree with that?

Jim, I realize there are two sides in this and I wasn't implying that this is all the Israeli's fault. And no, it's not in the least funny.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:36:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: No, you come on
Message:
The Israelis have gone further and further, further than Rabin was prepared to go, apparently, in their effort to reach some compromise.

Arafat refused to compromise. And why? Because the Palestinians are too split on the issue of whether they'll ever accept Israel's existence. I think it comes down to that and I think that mentality has been proven in spades during this latest uprising.

I don't give the Palestinians any credit whatsoever for negotiating in good faith this past round of talks (I mean the ones preceding the violence). Too bad.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:49:56 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No, you come on
Message:
Jim:

I agree with you, but I think the Palestinians need to acquire some sort of institutionalized power in order to rehabilitate themselves, their leadership hierarchy, and eventually their willingness and ability to negotiate in good faith. God this is going to be an enormously complicated process, but it's not clear to me that Arafat has had much control for a long time.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:42:39 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Interesting Opinion
Message:
But what does that have to do with what I was saying?
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:25:26 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Israeli Lobby - interesting Joe
Message:
By the way, TD, I lived on a kibbutz in Israel in 1972 for two months. I helped raise turkeys and I recall picking fruit while jet fighters flew so low over our heads we thought we would be hit by them. I remember the general feeling was that there could be war at any time. It created a kind of immediacy of living and community cohesion that was amazing. I haven't been back to Israel since, but I'm sure things had changed a lot by 1991.

Of course, in a couple of years I was a premie -- in an entirely different kind of 'community.'

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:50:09 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Israeli Lobby - interesting Joe
Message:
Hey - you were a good hippie going to a Kibbutz, and you were there only years after the war. Where was your kibbutz? I was on a couple of moshavs. One in the Golan Heights with the border in viewing distance, and all their nuke shelters, and then I worked in the only sephardic Jewish holiday resort by the Sea of Galilee. That was an interesting time, believe me!

Yeah, there's no doubt that being surrounded by Arabs on all sides makes for an interesting feeling there.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 23:52:40 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: The Israeli Lobby - interesting Joe
Message:
It was down near the Dead Sea. We picked a lot of oranges. Yeah, it kind of was the hippie thing to do, but it was on balance a good experience. Turkeys and oranges were the main things, oh, and they also had a kind of small hotel they were operating, as a kind of vacation place. I was there with a guy named Mike Shannon, an Irish kid from Boston. We really stood out as goys.

I was pretty committed to the need for an Israeli state, and I haven't changed from that. Of course, back then Israel really was under direct military threat, which I don't think is true any longer. I remember at the time we had to decide, actually the people in the Kibbutz asked us, that if Israel was attacked that we would actually fight for Israel. We said we would, even pacifist Joe.

But the situation has really changed. It is a lot more complicated than it was then, or at least for me it is. There really has to be a negotiated solution, and there has to be give on both sides, financed, of course, on both sides, by the United States. We are still paying off Egypt for the peace agreement, to the tune of several billion a year, and that was 20 years ago.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:57:18 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Anti-somethingorother
Message:
TD:

I agree that it's difficult to criticize Jews, or Islaeli policy, without being stereotyped. I once ran into enormous difficulty by stating what I thought to be the fairly obvious fact that, until recently, most Jewish immigrant families to the US had been assimilated, and no longer considered themselves, or even knew that they ever had been, Jewish. This applies to the family of my first HS girlfriend, and every immigrant Jewish wave from pre-revolutionary times until the 1930s. There is a significant amount of assimilation still going on.

That said, however, I still think the dominant reason for failure to criticize Israel is that it's the only democratic country in the Middle East that allows regular peaceful power transitions between two or several institutionalized opposition factions.

As for hegemonic attitudes toward Palestinians it would be a mistake to suppose that Arabs and Palestinians are not indoctrinated with even more purely racist notions about Jews. My otherwise perfectly lovely Jordanian friend and former roommate held fairly strong opinions, taught him since childhood, that the Jews were 'Devils' or 'Satanic Beings' and that the German Holocaust was a fabrication: pretty clearly antisemetic and racist. I convinced him that he should keep his mouth shut about such matters since it radically devalued my opinion of him. He explained how difficult it was, even in Jordan, to think of Israel as a friend with the sort of upbringing he had had.

So, by all means criticize Israeli policy... but consider that it's really up to Israel to change... and that we'll probably continue to support Israel, as we should, for what I think are fairly obvious reasons.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 16:10:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: God, TD, you're ruining my joke!
Message:
The joke was that I was planning to continue this OT argument all over again.

Look, I don't agree with you at all but what's the point talking about it? It's like U.S. politics and several other OT fires that break out occasionally here. It's a really divisive subject. In fact, it's probably so divisive that it's just not worth opening up all over again.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 18:40:48 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: God, TD, you're ruining my joke!
Message:
I know it was a joke, but I was disappointed I missed out on the last debate and being an opportunist, thought I'd get in while I could - and I'm obviously not gonna bring it up with people here in my office as mentioned before, so the forum is a good release!

BTW, by not agreeing at all with anything I said, you've not disappointed me - just reinforced the stereotype.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:08:22 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: I'm so glad this thread is over.
Message:
My sincere thanks to everyone who helped beat it to death: Joe, TD, Jim, et al. Good work!

Scott 'Nature Boy' T.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:42:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: What stereotype? (nt)
Message:
ffffff
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:28:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Continuing the Nader House Scandal Thread
Message:
Just kidding
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 04:47:55 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The darkest of saintly pleasures...
Message:
... and this isn't really a response either.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:02:34 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Comic and Tragedy: two sides of the same coin.
Message:
Subject: FW: Presidential Debate Transcript

Jim Lehrer: Welcome to the second presidential debate between Vice President Al Gore and Gov. George W. Bush. The candidates have agreed on these rules: I will ask a question. The candidate will ignore the question and deliver rehearsed remarks designed to appeal to undecided women voters. The opponent will then have one minute to respond by trying to frighten senior citizens
into voting for him. When a speaker's time has expired, I will whimper softly while he continues to spew incomprehensible statistics for three more minutes. Let's start with the vice president. Mr. Gore, can you give us the name of a downtrodden citizen and then tell us his or her story in a way that strains
the bounds of common sense?

Gore: As I was saying to Tipper last night after we tenderly
made love the way we have so often during the 30 years of our rock-solid marriage, the downtrodden have a clear choice in this election. My opponent wants to cut taxes for the richest 1 percent of Americans. I, on the other hand, want to put the richest 1 percent in an iron clad lockbox so they can't hurt old
people like Roberta Frampinhamper, who is here tonight. Mrs.
Frampinhamper has been selling her internal organs, one by one, to pay for gas so that she can travel to these debates and personify problems for me. Also, her poodle has arthritis.

Lehrer: Gov. Bush, your rebuttal.

Bush: Governors are on the front lines every day, hugging
people, crying with them, relieving suffering anywhere a photo opportunity exists. I want to empower those crying people to make their own decisions, unlike my opponent, whose mother is not Barbara Bush.

Lehrer: Let's turn to foreign affairs. Gov. Bush, if Slobodan Milosevic were to launch a bid to return to power in Yugoslavia, would you be able to pronounce his name?

Bush: The current administration had eight years to deal
with that guy and didn't get it done. If I'm elected, the first thing I would do about that guy is have Dick Cheney confer with our allies. And then Dick would present me several options for dealing with that guy. And then Dick would tell me which one to choose. You know, as governor of Texas, I have to make tough foreign policy decisions every day about how we're going to deal
with New Mexico.

Lehrer: Mr. Gore, your rebuttal.

Gore: Foreign policy is something I've always been keenly
interested in. I served my country in Vietnam. I had an uncle who was a victim of poison gas in World War I. I myself lost a leg in the Franco-Prussian War. And when that war was over, I came home and tenderly made love to Tipper in a way that any undecided woman voter would find romantic. If I'm entrusted with the
office of president, I pledge to deal knowledgeably with any
threat, foreign or domestic, by putting it in an iron clad lockbox. Because the American people deserve a president who can comfort them with simple metaphors.

Lehrer: Vice President Gore, how would you reform the Social
Security system?

Gore: It's a vital issue, Jim. That's why Joe Lieberman and
I have proposed changing the laws of mathematics to allow us to give $50,000 to every senior citizen without having it cost the federal treasury a single penny until the year 2250. In addition, my budget commits $60 trillion over the next 10 years to guarantee that all senior citizens can have drugs delivered free to their homes every Monday by a federal employee who will also help them with the child-proof cap.

Lehrer: Gov. Bush?

Bush: That's fuzzy math. I know, because as governor of Texas, I have to do math every day. I have to add up the numbers and decide whether I'm going to fill potholes out on Rt. 36 east of Abilene or commit funds to reroof the sheep barn at the Texas state fairgrounds.

Lehrer: It's time for closing statements.

Gore: I'm my own man. I may not be the most exciting politician, but I will fight for the working families of America, in addition to turning the White House into a lusty pit of marital love for Tipper and me.

Bush: It's time to put aside the partisanship of the past by
electing no one but Republicans.

Lehrer: Good night.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:14:02 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Comic and Tragedy: two sides of the same coin.
Message:
That was hilarious, shp. I heard on my morning radio show that Barbara Bush was on the Today show whining that she thought Al Gore was going to hit her son George during the debate. Good ol' Barbara. Honestly though, isn't that nuts?

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 05:38:04 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: I thought so too!
Message:
I heard on my morning radio show that Barbara Bush was on the Today show whining that she thought Al Gore was going to hit her son George during the debate. Good ol' Barbara. Honestly though, isn't that nuts?

Early in the debate, some bill that Gore was for (I honestly can't remember which one or what for), was being discussed. When Gore thought Bush was being evasive about it, he got out up off his seat, walked over to Bush, and just silently stood in his face for several moments before he asked him what he thought of the bill. But I swear, for a second there, I thought he was going to hit him. It looked like one guy getting ready to duke it out with another in a street fight. Really, it was quite alrming, at first.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:08:53 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I thought so too!
Message:
God, Jerry! I must have missed that! I turned the tv on a bit late into the debate. YIKES!
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:24:00 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Comic and Tragedy: two sides of the same coin.
Message:
Hi Helen,

Yeah, I heard that too. As a caricaturist, I notice profiles and Dubya definitely has his mother's profile. Check it out next time you see a photo.

What is more freaky is the feedback I hear from citizens who like Bush or Gore because of something that is obviously a political ploy and not a genuine fixture in their characters.

Time to vote our conscience and damn the torpedoes. If Bush wins because Nader got alot of votes, then more people will become aware sooner of the facist state the US is fast becoming. I think ExTex said that first, but I really see the truth it it.
It may take that to set the foundation of a new progressive political movement such as the Green Party to create a change in the balance of power for the future.

shp

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 03:47:27 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Comic and Tragedy: two sides of the same coin.
Message:
Bush's eyes are too close together. You notice that, Sandy?

Also, if you watched the last debate, did you catch how the moderator brought up up the 'Bush is a bumbler' right off the bat? He used the 'I want to make a correction' device and started the whole debate off with a deliberate slam at Bush. Bush was shocked, and so was I. Of course Gore loved it, the press loves Gore and it was all so contrived...

BTW, did I mention I'm voting for Gus Hall and Angela Davis again this year?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 14:59:26 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Gus Hall died recently nt
Message:
Dead as a door knob, just like the Communist Party.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 16:03:07 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Well if dead people can vote...
Message:
I can vote for a dead person !!

I left my NEW email address. Would like to follow through with our previous agreement but I need a mailing address, please.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:21:43 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I thought that only worked in Chicago...
Message:
Well, a vote for Gus Hall takes away a vote for Ralph Nader!
I'm still getting sizes; it's been crazy busy at la iglesia for the past two weeks, plus the teléfono was out for three weeks, so I have been unable to get the info for you. Will have stuff by next week. Thanks so much.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 21:20:52 (GMT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Everyone/SQ
Subject: I am so relieved to see
Message:
that this is, once again, the Steven Quint forum. Compared to that spamming lunatic, you are an incredible blessing Steve.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 20:26:52 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hans also was fond of threesomes
Message:
Hans, Rawat's dad was reported to be polygamous. This isn't widely known in the west but is easy to confirm with civil records. My questions are

1) do the Rawat brothers have half-brothers and/or sisters,

2) are any other of Hans' wives still alive?

3) should Rawat's alleged taste for threesomes be atrributed to
a) family tradition,
b) the sexual revolution which happened during the previous decade,
c) a current habit among rich and rotten kids?

4) may I also have a date with Marolyn and Claudia?

5) was it current amongst indians to be polygamous during the 40's and 50's?

6) does anyone have a picture of any of Hans other wives?

Just asking.

By the way, I did not just invent those rumors. They were passed-on to me by an educated source. Please don't spead them until confirmations allows it.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 07:54:34 (GMT)
From: Phiilp Huku
Email: phuku@usa.com
To: Yves
Subject: Hans also was fond of threesomes
Message:
What is wrong with threesomes?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 23:35:01 (GMT)
From: AOA Ji
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: 3sums like the father the son & holi goast? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 21:42:01 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Eastern Culture
Message:
I am so glad you have brought this topic .... it has been on the tip of my tongue to introduce to this forum ....

One has to remember in the grand scheme of things each culture follows a different tradition and no tradition is more right or better than any other.

Who is to say monogamy or polygamy is right or wrong? In many Eastern cultures, Muslim and Hindu are only 2 of them, polygamy has worked to no lesser or greater extent as its counterpart, monogamy or Christian tradition, in the West.

Marriage and/or Lifestyle, be what you call it, have no bearing on what Knowledge is about. You can be a murdering, alduterous polygamist, sado masachist, and still have the experience that comes from really sitting down and doing the techniques.

Knowledge does not need a moral code or conduct and Knowledge is what this whole thing was ever about. None of all this other crap. This is all stuff that goes on with being a human being.

Who hasn't had a dink? Who hasn't fucked a round? Who hasn't smoked a joint? Who wouldn't enoy the money that they had? Loosen up, guys, I can't believe there's so many tightasses among you!

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 13:11:04 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Eastern Culture
Message:
Knowledge does not need a moral code or conduct and Knowledge is what this whole thing was ever about. None of all this other crap. This is all stuff that goes on with being a human being.

Eric,
I would have said that Maharaji and his father many times advocated a 'moral code or conduct'. This was often very implicit in both their Satsangs and of course their rules for followers which were patently steeped in Eastern culture. Surely you don't deny this?

As one who once trustingly followed Maharaji's edict to asharam members to shun sex and relationships (and who feels some resentment for this now) I now think that neither Maharaji or his father can be exactly said to have practiced what they preached in this regard. Would you not agree?

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:06:43 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Eastern Culture
Message:
I have never actually heard Shri Hans speak or read anything of his, so I cannot comment - Shri Hans was never anyone I related to, knew or listened to. I was a child when he was around and had never heard of him.

I have never actually heard M advocate any particular lifestyle. I don't ever remember hearing him talking about shunning sex and relationships, but then I was never invited to the ashram meetings, not being an ashram resident. As I have stated before, the ashram lifestyle was not for me so I shunned that.

I have heard M warning of the illusory nature of sex, sexual love and the problems that can arise from relationships and that is another matter.

What a drag that you should feel resentful over decisions you made so long ago - 20 years or more. Another reason why it is so important to know oneself and be true to oneself.

And as far as M and Shri Hans lifestyle are concerned. I don't think they ever were ashram residents were they? They both married and had children - I believe this is called householder.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:42:25 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Undigested muck in your mind
Message:
Dear Eric, it almost makes me feel nostalgic, the 'premie flavour' to your pronouncements. I have been an ex for a fairly short time, and am now aware of the undigested beliefs that I regularly dig up and now get to think about.

When you believe that Maharaji speaks the truth, you tend to just accept the things he says as truth, even if they don't make sense to you, you just believe him anyway; the effects can be quite profound.

I notice that you acknowledge that Maharaji has 'warned of the dangers of sex, sexual love, and relationships'. He has also warned about the dangers of friendship and family. Even the poor old planet has had the thumbs down, after all it too is destined to end in 50 million years or so.

I think this 'wisdom' of the master is seriously flawed. My own experience is actually quite different. I hope yours is too.

I had the interesting experience of sitting and observing 'the Master playing with the hearts of his premies' earlier on this year when I attended an event at Amaroo. Really funny I should have taken him seriously for 27 years. From the 'vibes' I estimated about two thirds of the audience were just thrilled as he told them not to worry about any other relationships, they would hurt them, but they were the most important people to him, and of course, Knowledge is supposed to give you teflon underpants (my words), this message given: 'one heart to another' of course, oh sorry, 'one particular special heart to another', not one man playing the crowd for all it's worth, or one man thinking everyone should love only him.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 21:23:00 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: great post (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:00:15 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: You know Eric.....
Message:
It is extremely condescending and patronizing of Anon and the rest of us to just dismiss the ashram as a poor choice on Anon's part, including your implication that he didn't 'know himself' but you, 'Mr. evolved being', did.

The fact is that Maharaji advocated the ashram as the pre-emininent way to practice knowledge, and more importantly, serve him as a devotee, which is what he told us over and over, for years, that the 'path' was all about, and included in that was celibacy and poverty. We are now well informed that while Maharaji was advocating this, he was not only married, but carrying affairs with other women outside his marriage, all of which he kept secret from his celibate devotees. Anon is not out of bounds for pointing out his hypocrisy.

And your argument falls into 'premie rationalization number 4' which is that just because YOU didn't believe what Maharaji said and didn't devote to him, that you couldn't care less, and in fact discount, the damage caused because other people did.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 19:07:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: And an Anecdote
Message:
Just to let you know the kind of 'old fashioned' good old 'values' Maharaji espoused for his ashram premies, I remember in one ashram I lived, some premies taught a massage class. Innocent enough, right? Anyway the problem was the class was 'co-ed' in that both brothers and sisters were in the class and there was the possibility that, you know, certain body parts might be seen and touched.

Anyhow, the powers that be in the ashram contacted DLM, and Maharaji was asked about this. His response was that no, this wasn't appropriate and that the classes had to be 'same sex.' This is how extremely puritanical Maharaji was about this stuff. Note also what Michael Dettmers said about his response when, as an initiator, he asked Maharaji if he could get married. No way, Jose was the answer. No sex. No relationships. Not allowed.

This, while he, himself, was carrying on affairs.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:32:21 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A reply
Message:
Hey Joe ..... look don't get me wrong here .... | did live in the ashram, I did sincerely make the vows, I really did sing Arti at 5 am every morning .... and I also practiced/meditated really a lot.

I became so intoxicated ... it was all such a joke ... I laughed and laughed through the satsang ... I laughed even more in the ashram/WPC/house meetings.... there was a fountain of joy, fun, laughter welling up from deep within, bursting out. I felt like pure joy ... and still do. Of course, not with 'every breath', but I have to say K has given me an incredible lightness of being.

Anyway, in the end, I was too much for 'them', y'know the Ashram Secretary, the National Secretary, WPC. I was always laughing at inappropriate times, had a tendency to play a lot of jokes and liked to generally have fun. I agreed with them when they told me they didn't think I was ashram material.

I moved out. But that did not interrupt my own inner connection, experience, development and understanding of Knowledge. And that has continued to this day.

And I could be wrong on this one (my memory is not as good as it used to be) but didn't Mike Dettmers also say that he did end up having a relationship with the woman, later on, but it didn't work out?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 07:11:57 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: A reply
Message:
Perhaps you were so light headed from hyperventilating! What is there to 'understand' of knowledge? Share your years of wisdom from experience. I simply do not see the gain from my own years.

I have understood more since I left.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:54:49 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Intangibles
Message:
If I have to define what it is that I 'get' or 'understand' from K I am stepping in to the world of intangibles and this is a very tricky thing. Once we get in to definitions it becomes a wide open field and subject to each individuals interpretation.

It really is just a simple feeling and when I feel that thing (whatever you want to call) it gives me insight and when I apply that insight it gives me some understanding into our human nature and what it is to be a human being.

I can't get highly intellectual about it because it really isn't an intellectual thing, not for me anyway. It's just something that I feel, a lightness, a wellspring .... something intangible ... that if not felt, is missed.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 09:34:32 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Intangibles
Message:
But *that* (intangible feeling) is there for people who never 'got the knowledge' too. It is part of who we are to get intangible feelings and knowings. Don't even have to meditate for them!
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:10:45 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Intangibles
Message:
Yes, we all do feel those intangible things .... that's why the interpretations we all apply for ourselves are so personal.

Each one of us is so unique from anyone else. What freaks one person out is acceptable to someone else. What shocks another isn't even noticed by the one standing beside them. It's all so individual.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:39:25 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Don't understand the contradiction
Message:
Up above, in your earlier post, you said:

I have never actually heard M advocate any particular lifestyle. I don't ever remember hearing him talking about shunning sex and relationships, but then I was never invited to the ashram meetings, not being an ashram resident. As I have stated before, the ashram lifestyle was not for me so I shunned that.

But now you say you did live in the ashram but got kicked out. We should have all been so fortunate. Glad you are having a good time.

Regarding Dettmers' marriage, I think he said he didn't get married until a few years after Maharaji told him he couldn't. I think by that poing he was no longer an initiator and on his way out, if not already out of the cult.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 10:09:31 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: What's wrong with Polygamy
Message:
Eric,

If it's ok to have more than one wife, it surely must be ok to have more than one husband too.

This usually isn't the case, so what's wrong with polygamy, as practised today, is that it's sexist and discriminates against women.

Anth the new man who's getting old.

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 17:10:01 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Consenting Adults
Message:
Hey different strokes for different folks .....

Isn't how people decide to set up their own households a rather private and personal matter??

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 20:06:23 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Consenting Adults
Message:
Well, so is suicide, but that doesn't mean it's not problematic.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 22:23:37 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Attaboy Scott, wrt Consenting Adults
Message:
exactly.
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 04:54:06 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Eastern Culture
Message:
Marriage and/or Lifestyle, be what you call it, have no bearing on what Knowledge is about. You can be a murdering, alduterous polygamist, sado masachist, and still have the experience that comes from really sitting down and doing the techniques.

Well, that's obvious isn't it? So the question arises... Oh, never mind. Just don't follow an Aztec who thinks you're a virgin.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 22:17:43 (GMT)
From: Gordon Showcase
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Eastern Culture
Message:
Brother; I've had a Chink but can't say I've had a Dink. Are you a fictitious character? Unlike myself who is real, of course. Many so called premies here are ex-premies in disguise. They are the ex-premie plants.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 20:56:05 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: In 1975, we used to do work with homeless
Message:
We sang devotional songs and tried to give satsang. These were the days Rawat posed as a humanitarian leader and drove a camper across the mid-west.

In Toronto, we came across one of Hans' devotees in a homeless shelter. An old chap who had been kicked-out by his son. I wish I had asked him more questions about the whole thing and his old days of youth. It was sad to see the condition of this man. He was frail and confused. I wish karma existed and his son got... what he deserved. How's that to avoid bad karma just in case it did exist. We all are pretty certain it doesn't, but maybe, just maybe Rawat will get what he deserves.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:05:05 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: please explain more
Message:
that was rather hurried. I am intensely interested to hear more about this once-devotee of shri hans
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 02:36:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: His name was Shankar
Message:
We found him in a Salvation Army type men's hostel. We'd go to these places to stare into people's eyes and send secret love messages to Maharaji inside them. We were the World Welfare Association.

Shankar was fist discovered, if my moemry serves me right, by Barb what's her name? Long, light blond hair. Hm, funny I'd remember that.

Word got out that this was a real live former devotee of Shri Hans. We took him out of the hostel, brought him to our sterile Satsang hall, made him into a mascot of sorts. Shankar was very old, very thin and, if I recall, kind of hard to take once the novelty wore off. He'd sit there in the front row with several cult buttons on. I can't really remember him ever giving satsang but I'm sure he did, if only to tell us a story or so (I can't remember any).

That's about it.

Although, obviously, we thought that there was a hell of a lot of grace in the World Welfare Association those days to facilitate a coincidence like that.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 04:27:27 (GMT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: bb: remember Frank?
Message:
Bill: Remember Frank?

He was a street alcoholic; I think we liked him because
he looked like Shri Hans!

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 08:52:26 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: And On Anand Ji and Jim
Subject: Shankar and Frank
Message:
we had a story like that in Denver, same period. an old wino named Norwood Winters who was a derelict on larimer street when it was skid row.

The premies found him and satsanged him and brought him out of the gutter. He cleaned up and became a clown for the kids. Gave satsang in 401 in the IHQ building.

a lonely guy when he wasnt at the hall. i once stood vigil at a hospital ER bedside, when he overdosed and they had to pump his stomach.

I understand he died, quite a while back. i had a dream about him, in the next world, being at a program, here in los angeles. He was considerably younger and much more energetic, doing ushering on the sidwalk.

for Shankar, that must have been like a dream, to be found, by the second generation of devotees of shri hans, at the lowest point in his life, half a world away from his roots. where did he live, once you got him out? what did he do? what became of him?

ya know, when i ponder on stories like this, it occurs to me, that we could have done tremendous good, just as ourselves, and dispensed with goomarajee. we started so many good works in our outreach to the world, and shithead only wanted it all for himself. we shoulda gotten rid of him, and continued on, with our own ideas of doing good.Bob Mischler should have taken us all with him, and fired MJ when he couldn't accept the Humanitarian Leader bit.

for Shankar, and Mr. Winters, there certianly was 'grace' in our finding them, but it wasnt maharaji;s grace. it was ours.

all in all, the ungrateful fuck has no grace whatsoever, as human nature goes. and you know what they say--without Grace, there is nothing left but Disgrace. The bigger they come, the harder they fall.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 20:38:44 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: BTW, kidney and lung are not on the market anymore
Message:
As for my constitutional freedom of speech, it is still on special until tomorrow.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 20:38:37 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Hans had 2 wives; the first couldn't have kids (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 10:11:54 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: I thought the first wife had 2 children too (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 11:40:12 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: AJW
Subject: I thought the first wife had 2 children too (nt)
Message:
One daughter, according to the skunk's discourse.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 00:08:29 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: if she's alive--bbj's site has pictures
Message:
manaavv dharam has some teeny pictures of the whole brood. if she's alive, she would be in them. and there was at least one half sister MJwas reportedly fond of in his childhood at prem nagar.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 17:00:32 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Another Happy Expression
Message:
Just posted at maharaji.org:

Do you think your father would approve of what you've done and what you've become?

You've worked on quantity of followers to the detriment of quality. There is no quality in any of your followers as far as I'm concerned.

As far as your silence to letters and emails sent in dire straits, the reality is clear to anybody with a bit of a brain left, and there are miraculously a few of your ex-followers in that state. You ignore email completely. You open mail and look for money and ignore the rest.

Steven Elliott Quint
sequint@home.com

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Date: Thurs, Oct 19, 2000 at 16:42:39 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Medical Emergency
Message:
I was just browsing the www.enjoyinglife.org expressions section.

There's enough brain damage there to keep at least ten top American brain surgeons busy for a very long time.

Steve

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 10:34:53 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Medical Emergency?? Try brain transplant
Message:
At this point that is what premies need, especially the 'old' premies: A BRAIN TRANSPLANT! Gone.

For some their brain damage is beyond repair.

hahahaha

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Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 at 11:43:19 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: SB
Subject: Medical Emergency?? Try brain transplant
Message:
Are you insinuating that their brains should be interchanged?

Would Hillary Clinton approve of that usage of American medical resources?

Steve

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