Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Oct 31, 2000 at 14:38:15 (GMT)
From: Oct 21, 2000 To: Oct 29, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


Tonette -:- Oh Michael, Michael -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:12:53 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- The carpet.......... -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 01:50:47 (GMT)
__ Bill -:- Look, do your homework, read the posts carefully-n -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:18:39 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- I've read all of them -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:24:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bill -:- I've read all of them -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 20:50:43 (GMT)

Marianne -:- Compassion or condemnation? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:57:58 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Compassion or condemnation? -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 02:38:43 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Great Marianne....to Website Admin? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:53:28 (GMT)
__ __ Website Admin -:- Great idea, would you help? -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 07:58:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Bad idea, the whole thing needs a rewrite. An edit -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:32:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- I was thinking this too bill -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:42:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- selene ot -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:49:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I'm confused -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 23:02:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- I'm -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 12:04:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- the post was good -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 16:54:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- People come to the door of the website and if we.. -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:40:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- If Mike Dettmers makes a comprehensive factual -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:45:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- No offense taken -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 05:10:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- No offense taken -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 12:08:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Sure, I'll work with Marianne....(nt) -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 17:34:02 (GMT)
__ TD -:- Brilliant Marianne - thanks v.m. (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:09:31 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Thanks, Marianne. Jean-Michel - BEST OF FORUM? nt -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 12:51:40 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Definitely ***** Best of Forum ***** rated -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 13:33:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- Definitely ***** Best of Forum ***** rated -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 15:42:03 (GMT)
__ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Compassion or condemnation? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 09:53:24 (GMT)
__ __ Interesting DPGAJ -:- Compassion or condemnation? -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:13:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- I feel quite liberated, thank you -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:33:48 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- was it Dante's Inferno? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 18:12:50 (GMT)
__ __ carol -:- Higher up the ladder/harder the fall -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:00:09 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Oh please, gag me with a spoon, dude -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:59:15 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Marianne, obviously you haven't seen this yet -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:18:59 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- remember-Travolta is a top “$”cientologist -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 08:58:50 (GMT)
__ __ Ana T -:- Thanks Roger and a sub-note to Michael -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:00:22 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Marianne, obviously you haven't seen this yet -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 13:16:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- You are quite welcome. (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 20:26:56 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- Why Roger? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:26:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Why Roger? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:26:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- thanks Roger -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:32:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Why Roger? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:31:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Why Roger? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:35:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Redemption -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:37:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Redemption -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:49:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Selene: the Movie - OT -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:54:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- of course he is!!! after all don't forget -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:55:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I've got Kate Winslett and Leonardo D. signed up -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 06:02:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I've got Kate Winslett and Leonardo D. signed up -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 06:43:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- that is awful! -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:29:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- well, ok -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 06:06:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- FA - missing words? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:14:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- of course he is!!! OT -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:57:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- no not me -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 06:00:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jenn -:- well, I was a cheerleader...ot -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:38:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- well, I was a cheerleader...ot -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:01:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- well, I was a cheerleader...oops -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 15:39:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ KIA -:- Thank Goddess! Nt -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 06:03:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Redemption = Selling a Yacht or a Plane -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:47:54 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- I liked that -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:50:20 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood... -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 06:18:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- :) Scott love your posts lately! (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:34:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- :) Scott love your posts lately! (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 19:16:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- :) Scott love your posts lately! (yes text) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 19:41:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Don't call us Shirley. -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:05:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- hehe -nt- (was: Don't call us Shirley.) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:17:37 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- I liked that -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:17:21 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Right on the money, Marianne -- literally (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:25:06 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- eloquent, incredible Marianne (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:22:42 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Definitely Condemnation -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:10:05 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Thanks -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:46:29 (GMT)

Joe -:- Another Question for Michael Dettmers..... -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 19:28:38 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- Another Question for Michael Dettmers..... -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 22:31:55 (GMT)
__ __ Jennifer -:- Who is Michael Dettmers? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 01:39:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Who is Michael Dettmers? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:35:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Who is Michael Dettmers? Can u say 'henchman' ??? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 15:00:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Who is Michael Dettmers? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 06:02:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Makes a good title for a book......nt -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 09:04:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jennifer -:- Thanks, Susan-nt -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:38:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet of venice -:- question not well answered. ask mike who he was -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:21:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jennifer -:- question not well answered. ask mike who he was -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:46:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Janet, please see post below to Tonette (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:32:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Janet -:- read it b4 i decided to post N E way, mr.fussy -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:55:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Will you give it to me, nurse? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:02:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- sure. you'll like my technique, too.(OT!) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:21:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- The nt post or the one -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:18:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- I missed the other posts too -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:09:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jennifer -:- My son has pink eye -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:17:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- well the toddler is easier than Jim -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:27:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jennifer -:- Soul Rush -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:37:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- ugh I can't remember that WIGMJ -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:39:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Soul Rush -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:34:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I was very moved by her writing -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:36:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- where do i go to read it? is it on the site? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:09:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- It's on the site -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:13:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- It's on the site-i can't download w/ webtv!! -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:45:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ selene -:- it is not a book it is a URL -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:59:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- ok I am going to do this until it works -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:06:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- got it. read it. wrote to mike. see above.tx -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 09:03:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- sophia and amherst -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:13:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- sophia and amherst -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:24:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- who is ne l? just kidding -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:28:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- ne1==anyone its a mnemonic (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:31:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- It was in hardback too -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:16:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- it's been raining for days -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:25:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Thanks, Selene -nt -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:41:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- oh and ps -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:29:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Michael is M's right hand man -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:33:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Michael Dettmers was m's personal trainer -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:22:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jennifer -:- Michael can you fit me in? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:07:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- She asked a sincere question -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:38:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Tonette? Shut up, will you please? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:29:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Beats 'fuck off' anyday Jim -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:59:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Please see my post above to Janet (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:03:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Don't miss my post right there too! nt -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:20:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi Jennifer (ot) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:03:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jennifer -:- Hi Marianne (ot) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:56:42 (GMT)
__ __ Rick -:- Another Question for Michael Dettmers..... -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 23:01:44 (GMT)
__ Lotus Eater -:- If I had to sit in a chair and wonder whether the -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:53:51 (GMT)
__ janet -:- world's costliest whore--! -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 20:31:24 (GMT)

Tim Matheson -:- LORD MAHARAJ's RAPID COMMUNICATION SYSTEM(RCS) -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 18:09:02 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Oh no - not the phone tree again!!! (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:13:58 (GMT)
__ mahasad -:- LORD MAHARAJ's RAPID COMMUNICATION SYSTEM(RCS) -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:43:36 (GMT)
__ __ La La La Lola -:- The Wonderful World of Magic !!! -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 01:40:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ mensa -:- The Wonderful World of Magic !!! FOR REAL!!! -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:45:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Juicy Jenny -:- The world is a carousel of color !!! -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 01:51:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- it makes perfect sense...(wait-not like that) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:48:40 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Hypnosis repost for Hamzen -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:15:52 (GMT)
__ ham -:- Thanx for that Nigel -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 13:22:11 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Thanx for that Nigel -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 21:34:35 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- 'Boring' - wrong word. A belated afterthought... -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:59:33 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Not bad post, Nige -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:21:38 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- That's a good one Nigel -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 22:53:51 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Bagpipe Music (ot) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 11:47:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Bagpipe Music (ot) -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 01:45:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Bagpipe Music (ot) -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 21:40:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Krishnamurti, yes, slandered the wrong lord . (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 00:34:51 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Great Post, Nigel (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 18:09:27 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- It's all here -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 16:15:04 (GMT)
__ Moldy Warp -:- Cult Busters Anonymous -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:48:00 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Cult Busters Anonymous -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 22:55:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Cult Busters Anonymous -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 08:47:01 (GMT)

jondon -:- Went to Newport -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 14:53:00 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Went to Newport -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:46:50 (GMT)
__ __ JONDON -:- Went to Newport -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:29:14 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- the plane -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:30:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- the plane -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:13:46 (GMT)
__ shp -:- Went to Newport, and all that jazz -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 15:43:34 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- You are to stupid to notice -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 01:21:02 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- 102ft long, 7.5 million dollars - 'little'?!! (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:39:47 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- 'little yacht' -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 16:59:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Philip -:- 'little yacht' -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:52:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- 'little yacht' -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 00:03:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Little brain, Philip? -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 23:04:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- 'little yacht', a Dissertation and Interrogatory -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:28:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- 'little yacht' -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 01:44:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SHP -:- 'little yacht' -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:40:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- 'a world teacher' -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:24:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Your 'world teacher' post was blank. (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:40:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- check again (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 21:06:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Are you still eating up your supplies from the -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Are you sure those are lotuses you are grazing on? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 00:20:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- commercial air travel -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 00:57:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- ah, but he's said he's going to bring peace -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 20:04:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- 'little yacht', a Dissertation and Interrogatory -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 20:18:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, if he's a real unicorn ...... -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 20:13:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- More on shp's hypocrisy -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:40:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- No hypocrisy here -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 15:34:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh, sorry, Shp, perhaps I misunderstood -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 01:06:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Yeah, Jim, you mix too much of 'you' into it all. -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 18:45:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Perfect dishonest, cowardly non-answer, shp -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 20:36:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- I could set my clock by your game, Jimbo! (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 03:02:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- No hypocrisy here, perhaps brain damage then? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 15:47:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- No hypocrisy here, perhaps brain damage then? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:35:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Tighten up your reading skills, gerry, please look -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:47:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- 'little yacht' -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 19:27:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- EMPTY POST (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 19:49:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Thanks (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:56:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- it's an escape vehicle-international waters -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 19:23:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'So what else is there to say?' Try this, SHP: -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:45:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- To Nigel -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 20:27:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- I'll take that as a shrug, then..? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:53:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- A no-malice shrug, with the opinion that this may -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 19:43:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- He didn't 'educate himself' to fly aircrafts... -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:55:56 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:12:53 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Oh Michael, Michael
Message:
Tell us more! What a wonderful soul you are to come here and 'spill the beans.'

Yes, it's okay you helped dupe us. We understand. Won't you walk on this red carpet, please?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 01:50:47 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: The carpet..........
Message:
I can't quite make it reach the wall either.

I think it's the confidentiality clause.

What commercial interest needs protecting here ?

A church (US) , an Education trust (UK), & fuck knows what elsewhere.

There's got to be more to this than ,'I got wasted with the lord ' stories.


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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:18:39 (GMT)
From: Bill
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Look, do your homework, read the posts carefully-n
Message:
sdths
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:24:05 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Bill
Subject: I've read all of them
Message:
Including the ones archived from April.

I just don't buy all of it! And sincerity aside, actions speak louder than words. Which is, of course, all we have here, words. So let the good times roll with your host, Michael Dettmers.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 20:50:43 (GMT)
From: Bill
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I've read all of them
Message:
Hi Tonette,
Cant blame you for the concern. Some of those sentences were like fingernails on a blackboard.
But key changes were typed in his posts and by the time he gave the yingling response to ev, it was pretty convincing to me that
here was someone that broke through.
(quicker than I did)
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:57:58 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Compassion or condemnation?
Message:
I have been an active contributor on this forum for about a year and a half. I've come to love and appreciate the many permutations the discussions here take, and have developed personal relationships with a number of the regulars here. I've been preoccupied with my work lately, but I have been riveted to the discussions concerning Michael Dettmers' disclosures about M, DLM/EV, the ashrams, M's insatiable greed, drug use and attitude towards those close to him and below him. These disclosures and the discussions which they have prompted are moving our understanding of the cult and M forward as never before.

I want to offer my personal thanks to Michael for making these posts. I was very skeptical of Michael for a long time. In the beginning of his contacts with some exes, I had the feeling that he was trying to steer a safe course between 2 worlds, because he had not fully rejected the M/cult world, nor had he cast his lot with the exes -- thus fully sealing his fate forevermore as an adversary of M, EV, and old friends. I now feel that I was correct in this assessment. This is not meant as a criticism. Michael had to go through the same process of confronting his experience with the cult that the rest of us did. It seems to me that he had not really dealt with many of the issues often discussed on the forum because he lived a very different life in the cult than most of us did. To Michael's credit, he seems to have grasped the enormity of the harm done to those of us who were the foot soldier devotees, who lived in the ashrams, gave up the best years of our lives and money, and were left with the chimera of a life when we departed the cult. That he has called upon M to apologize and to provide restitution to those who deserve it is remarkable, and no doubt is considered heresy in Malibu. I say, 'Right on, Michael. Keep those posts coming!'

This brings me to the topic of this post. We have had an on-going discussion on the forum about we view M's ultimate responsibility for the mantle he assumed at a young age. Anth and others have said that they felt M was, in a sense, a victim of circumstance, having been told since he was a child that he was the Lord. Thus, his behavior has to been seen in that context, and we should have some compassion and understanding for him as a result.

Others have argued that even if M was born into this situation, he knew and was involved in the machinations to retain and consolidate his power as early as 16 when he married Marolyn and then presided over the banishment of his mother and brothers to India. They argue that M taking control of DLM in the US and Europe demonstrates his true and predominant attitude about the affairs of the cult: as a money making machine for him. Therefore, he is to be condemned.

As most of you know, I represent inmates on death row in California who have been sentenced to die. I take these cases in the last stages of review in an attempt to stave off execution and obtain a new trial for my clients. Day in, day out, I deal with the meaning of compassion and condemnation, who deserves which, and why. It is very hard work, but I have learned more about the nature of compassion and redemption in my years of working with society's outcasts than that fraud could ever hope to know himself.

I do not have compassion for Prem Pal Rawat. I condemn him. I make this harsh judgment because Rawat has had every material comfort, every societal benefit, every desire -- even those others imagine he might have -- satisfied at every step of his life. What has he done with these never ending benefits? How has he treated those around him? What human suffering has he really addressed? We now know that he is a greedy, self centered little man who has an insatiable lust for power and material objects, no matter at what human cost. To me, that behavior, over so many, many years, must be condemned in the most vociferous manner, especially when we read here every day of the damage done in large and small ways to those who devoted their lives to him. I especially believe that Rawat and EV should pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to Abi and the other victims of sexual abuse by Mahatma Jagdeo. That Rawat continues to shun financial and corporate responsibility for the serial child molester he allowed to wander the planet is the most blatant example of his unwillingness to take responsibility for the lives he once embraced when it was financially beneficial, and then flung away when it was no longer convenient.

I have compassion for my clients because they had nothing in their lives. I do not condone the taking of any life. These cases are a tragedy for all touched by them. But my clients were used and abused every step of their lives and knew no other way. They deserve compassion.

Rawat deserves condemnation. He has more than earned mine.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 02:38:43 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Compassion or condemnation?
Message:
Hey Marianne
That was a great post. You have said it so succinctly and yet with such passion. I came over here to lurk a bit, and read yours first thing. Thanks so much for posting it.
Helen
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:53:28 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Great Marianne....to Website Admin?
Message:
I think Marianne's post might be an excellent introduction to the website. I think it is a good summation of what many of us feel, and the conclusions we have reached, so far, based on what has been discussed and disclosed on this website over the past 3 years. What do you think? It might make a good addition to that slightly dated, monkey-hand-in-the-jar explanation. I mean, that's good, but Marianne is talking about the concrete stuff, and she says it very clearly.

I would add just one thing to what Marianne wrote. As to Maharaji's responsbility, one reason that I think he isn't just a victim of his bizarre upbringing and being surrounded by sychophants, is that he is now 42 and has had ample time to realize that he not only isn't divine, that he is, in fact, quite limited, and that his main priorities are, in fact, his own wealth and lifestyle. I think it's just logical that he would have realized that by now, even if he didn't realize it 25 years ago.

Also, he has taken actions/made changes, that indicate to me that he understands that what he did in the 70s and 80s was outrageous, at least in hindsight, because if he didn't think so, he wouldn't have toned things down. His own actions are indications that he is quite aware of the things he has done, that they were wrong, but he just refuses to acknowledge that.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 07:58:23 (GMT)
From: Website Admin
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Great idea, would you help?
Message:
I can't just take the whole post and copy it on the introduction page.

Would you edit it so that it fits there?

Jean-Michel

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:32:50 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Website Admin
Subject: Bad idea, the whole thing needs a rewrite. An edit
Message:
is not called for. It needs rewriting. Tailored for its new purpose.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:42:05 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I was thinking this too bill
Message:
There are only a few paragraphs that do not reference Michael directly or Marianne.
And those paragraphs are very good. But an intro should not contain any one or two individuals history or perpective IMO.
btw having now been a couch critic I'll help if anyone wants.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:49:04 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: selene ot
Message:
did you see anonomousie?
I kind of wrote that for you.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 23:02:09 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I'm confused
Message:
You were anonomousie or you wrote the post about anonomousie for me?
I did read it. I wanted to respond but it was so powerful and I was not sure if I was being attacked or supported :)
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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 12:04:46 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I'm
Message:
Jim wrote from his computer under the name anonomousie.
He was funny and brought that character to life.
He announced he had kicked her off his computer and out of his house. She was his housekeeper.

I dusted her off and gave her life again.
I would use her to razz Jim and make him laugh.
I thought the post was in support of your conversation to Jim and also I poked fun at him about ther complaints he had gotten (the Nigel post ect).
Maybe the post was not so good. I did think it was at the time.
Maybe his humor side is not receptive to a roast.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 16:54:23 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: the post was good
Message:
I just didn't get it :)
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:40:10 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: People come to the door of the website and if we..
Message:
greet them with a condemnation post with an abridged version
of the reasons why, what help are we doing them?

They have to slowly review the evidence and adjust to the shock to thier system that ANYONE would criticise someone whom they had previously only heard good things about.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:45:37 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: If Mike Dettmers makes a comprehensive factual
Message:
report on rawat, and leaves the condemnation or compassion to the reader to indulge in based on thier capacity to adjust to the new info, that would be ideal.

Nothing against your post, but preaching to the choir is one thing and talking to the the new visitor is another.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 05:10:16 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: No offense taken
Message:
bill: I have no problem with any of the comments in this regard.


Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 12:08:43 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: No offense taken
Message:
I really respect you and hope my late night commments didnt get out of line.

Im just going to hope and assume that I wasnt disrespectful or anything like that. Glad you spoke to let me off the hook of concern!

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 17:34:02 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Website Admin
Subject: Sure, I'll work with Marianne....(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:09:31 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Brilliant Marianne - thanks v.m. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 12:51:40 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks, Marianne. Jean-Michel - BEST OF FORUM? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 13:33:58 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Definitely ***** Best of Forum ***** rated
Message:
but I wait until the archive page is available.

That saves me lots of trouble for the page's layout!

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 15:42:03 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Definitely ***** Best of Forum ***** rated
Message:
Marianne,
Wonderful post. Thanks.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 09:53:24 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: Marianne
Subject: Compassion or condemnation?
Message:
I have mixed fieelings about this subject condemnation or compassion. None of really know what it must be like to have the kind of absolute power Maharaj Ji has or how difficult it must be for him to make the decision to give that kind of power up? I have to ask myself in all fairness how many of us really think that we would willingly give up all that kind of wealth and power if we were in Maharaj Ji's shoes. Sadly, knowing what I think I do know about human nature, I sincerely doubt that any of us of us actually would be able to make that kind of a sacrifice. Remember the old saying ' all power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely.' I believe that applies in this case. I am not advocating excusing his self-centered behavior or letting M off the hook as far making a direct amends to those people he has harmed. I do however think that Michael offers us a valid insight when he reminds us that M was groomed for this position from a young age. This really and truly was the Rawats Family Business playing God. He does not know anything about working for a living, having to earn money ect. The prospect of looseing the geese that lay the golden eggs must be very threatening to him. So no wonder he resists it he is afraid he might have to grow up and become a man. For someone who has never had to lift a finger his whole life the prospect of having to do that is not very attractive. Aint it a bitch being rich?
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:13:30 (GMT)
From: Interesting DPGAJ
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: Compassion or condemnation?
Message:
Had to look this up but I think it is apropos:

Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses.

Carl Gustav Jung

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:33:48 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Interesting DPGAJ
Subject: I feel quite liberated, thank you
Message:
In this case, I feel quite liberated by condemning someone who oppresses others.

Easy to disagree when you're posting anonymously, premie whoeveryouare.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 18:12:50 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: was it Dante's Inferno?
Message:
Paradise Lost?
If God and the Devil had to exchange places each would assume each other's role
I agree to a point. but I'm not there so I can only speculate and that is something I hate really is hypothetical thinking. It has it's place of course. so, I would NOT hold on. I'd invest cut some losses, get out of dodge maybe got to Australia and GIVE IT UP. I cannot imagine why M holds on. That is the one most baffling aspect of this whole bizarre play is why he continues.
Greed?

oh oh. He isn't really God is he? no never mind I'm just still disoriented from the rain.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:00:09 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: Higher up the ladder/harder the fall
Message:
Didn't M use that in satsang once during the 'fear' period?
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:59:15 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: Oh please, gag me with a spoon, dude
Message:
Jesus F christ I could get through about three sentences of this pablum before I hurled all over my keyboard.

give me a fucking break, programmed anandgee

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:18:59 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne, obviously you haven't seen this yet
Message:
Dead Man Walking - the Sold Out World Premiere Opera at the San Francisco Opera.

I swear to god that after you see this opera with John Travolta putting song and dance to the Sean Penn role you will embrace, endorse and subscribe to the death penalty in any form or fashion regardless of the cruelty. Just when you thought it was safe to go to the opera again they had to do Dead Man Walking. What was Andrew Lloyd Webber thinking? And it's all in Italian!

Am I off the main topic here? Nevermind...

Since I really don't want this to be about me I'm going to keep it short and sweet. Earlier today without fanfare or notice I removed from Roger's House of Maharaji Drek all references to Michael Dettmers. And I would like to extend my apologies, respect, and appreciation to Michael Dettmers for his contributions to the Forum of Ex-Premies.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 08:58:50 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek and friends
Subject: remember-Travolta is a top “$”cientologist
Message:
1234567890
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:00:22 (GMT)
From: Ana T
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Thanks Roger and a sub-note to Michael
Message:
Thanks Roger... (for removing the Michael Dettmers references)

And to Michael... sorry about all that back then ... in my quest for Nellie's watch. One would think the former Lord of the Universe would simply have answered my query as to where the jewelry went so I and prevented a prolonged OCD search on coporate shenanigans. I'm through with that now.

Ana T

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 13:16:40 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Marianne, obviously you haven't seen this yet
Message:
Thank you Roger.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 20:26:56 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: You are quite welcome. (nt)
Message:
asdf
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:26:53 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Why Roger?
Message:
Why remove what was? Why remove the referance? It's what happened. A part of the history.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:26:51 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Tonette
Subject: Why Roger?
Message:
I have spent a lot of time thinking about what to do with the 'information' that I had collected and presented about Michael Dettmers. And in lieu of having enough time and energy to edit the expose down to meaningful facts that could be substantiated I opted to simply remove the links from the referring pages.

One of the problems we have as ex-premies with no real resources other than Search Engines on the Internet is the absence of solid information on Maharaji, Elan Vital, and any of the ancillary players.

In fact, as time marches on we can barely put together a history of places and dates of programs. I remember a time when I could vividly recall every program I ever attended - what year, what city, what Maharaji wore, what the stage looked like. And now I don't have a clue. I suppose I have forgotten because ever since I left the shelter of the ashram I have fallen back into the 'Drug Culture' and I can barely tie my own shoes now. But, I digress.

Now, that Michael Dettmers has presented his side of the story I see that much of my story might not have been factually correct and might, in fact, have been mean spirited by attacking someone I did not know nor was I expecting to ever know any better than a 'notorious' figure from the past. It appears to me that Michael Dettmers is a decent human being and a good person regardless of his involvement at whatever level of Maharaji's organization he was engaged at. I know that for myself I would have only been overjoyed had I the same opportunity to 'serve' Maharaji in such a capacity. And, a few times I did have minor opportunities up close with Maharaji and they were enjoyable.

Please remember what the mindset was back then - most of us would do just about anything for Maharaji. Little white lies, expediting cash to avoid excessive taxation so that it could be given to Maharaji. And I am not saying that Michael Dettmers did anything illegal. As Michael pointed out that everyone was very, very careful not to do anything illegal that would reflect poorly on Maharaji. And you do not need to do anything illegal to play games with money. No, it's all codified. All you need is a good specialist. Finally, anybody who had the least bit of involvement at all within the organization understood the importance of the paramount mission to please Maharaji.

And while Michael Dettmers said that early on he saw that Maharaji was not as divine as the masses were led to believe, well, I think that anyone who stuck around well into the 90's like myself heard more and more special stories and saw Maharaji more and more to be like a regular human being. However, Maharaji still had something to offer whatever that was, be it a convincing stage show or an evening of introspective poetry.

Also, it's no big surprise to me that Maharaji smoked grass. I know that we've heard it here from Michael Donner and I'm pretty sure that I heard about it when I lived in Denver as early as the mid 70's.

And I am concerned that Roger eDrek will be accused of preferential revisionism by removing the information on Michael Dettmers, but, again, I have to honestly say that the newer information that we have received from Michael has supplanted my earlier speculation, which I now consider to be cruel and inaccurate.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:32:29 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: thanks Roger
Message:
I respect what you are doing and saying here. I have found the forum pretty intense lately! A lot going on.

Take care,

Susan

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:31:58 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Why Roger?
Message:
you mean you changed your mind?
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:35:27 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Selene
Subject: Why Roger?
Message:
I'm easy.

There's very little I cannot change my mind about.

Hell, one day I might even take down the entire House of Drek down (well, I'll leave Chronicles of the Red Nighty) if Maharaji comes clean. Most people are redeemable. At least I hope so for my own sake.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:37:15 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Redemption
Message:
Yes, Rawat could obtain redemption (that stuff he said he was giving us) if he gave the Jagdeo victims about $100,000 each. And an apology.

KIA

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:49:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Know It All and Roger
Subject: Redemption
Message:
Changing is part of life.
Even Jugdie if he comes clean and makes amends.
I cannot imagine how he could make amends but he could try at least. A friggin start would be for EV to recognize it happened.

and I can't speak for any of the other writers but I kinda cringe when I see the stuff I wrote for CORN.
It was experimental. and straight from the heart. eessshhh!!!!
of all thing!!

So do what you will with it. unless I catch you making money from it then you'd better give me some.

as if :)

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:54:00 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene: the Movie - OT
Message:
I heard that eDrek is negotiating a major motion picture with your name in the title, based on everything in CORN!

KIA

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:55:11 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: of course he is!!! after all don't forget
Message:
It's All About Me.
Don't hate me because I am popular.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 06:02:27 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Selene
Subject: I've got Kate Winslett and Leonardo D. signed up
Message:
Oh, it's gonna be goo-oooooood!

Kate will be Lena, of course. And Leonardo will be Red. It's perfect.

Instead of 'Top of the World, Ma' (I never did see Titanic) it will be 'Bhole Shri SatGuruDev Ki Jai!'

The 'film' will end just like Titanic and everybody drowns and gets eaten by huge man-eating sharks when the MegaYacht sinks after arrogant and drunken Captain Rawat heads below to his cabin to sleep it off and he hands the helm over to an inexperienced, but very blissed out premie named Gerry.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 06:43:52 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I've got Kate Winslett and Leonardo D. signed up
Message:
Roger:

Speaking of which, on my 13 hour flight back from Australia in 1998 they showed Titanic. I thought that was extraordinarily bad taste.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:29:28 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: that is awful!
Message:
That would have made me wonder about the entire crew. What a stupid thing to do.

One flight back east they showed some movie, can't remember the name, about a meteor crashing into earth and I thought that was pretty bad taste as well.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 06:06:44 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: well, ok
Message:
and I never saw Titanic. I refused to. yuck.

although I am guilty of like American Beauty. oh well.
but the M image of the mad captain fits. I always saw him in the Jules Verne (sp) of 20K Under.
ha. Takes on new meaning doesn't it?

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:14:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA - missing words?
Message:
Not that I care about the above post I made but I do remember at least 5 words that were there when I hit submit that didn't make it to the post.
I know I'm terrible about not proofing my writing here but I am fairly certain about having 'the role of Captain Nemo' before the Jules Verne reference. No biggie I just thought I would mention it because a few others have brought this up before.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:57:17 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: of course he is!!! OT
Message:
Were you a fucking cheerleader, Selene?

KIA

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 06:00:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: no not me
Message:
OK.
enough. It's Not About Me after all.
time to put one of those fake logs on the fireplace. It's cold.
57 or something!!
bye = I am NOT gonna talk about my past after babysitting a2 year old for 2 days I don't have to.

No that is not logical and I do not care. and I was NEVER a cheerleader ever.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:38:11 (GMT)
From: Jenn
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: well, I was a cheerleader...ot
Message:
and I loved it. Popularity, boys...

In reality we sat home of friday nights listening to Janis Ian-ha! But we did get to wear short skirts. See, cheerleaders can be naughty, too! :) Just kidding.
Did the two year old go home yet?
Jenn

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:01:47 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Jenn
Subject: well, I was a cheerleader...ot
Message:
Spartans? :)
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 15:39:43 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jenn
Subject: well, I was a cheerleader...oops
Message:
Sorry Jenn.
Janis Ian? Really?
I wasn't watching him last night, I had been for the last couple days though.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 06:03:32 (GMT)
From: KIA
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Thank Goddess! Nt
Message:
xxxxx
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:47:54 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Know It All
Subject: Redemption = Selling a Yacht or a Plane
Message:
Yes, there are far too many real victims that need real help more than Maharaji needs another 106 foot yacht or $25 million dollar corporate jet. I do believe that Maharaji at this very moment is lacking Gulfstream's latest offering. I'm sure he would like to have it, too.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:50:20 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: I liked that
Message:
First of all although I like Michael's posts, I don't think Michael has really come clean with what he said, when he said it, how he said it, or why he said it, even when Michael knew the whole spiritual trip was a sham. Michael was Mahahraji's right hand man. Michael perpertuated many of the myths and fallacies about Maharaji that we all endured. Michael is, in large part, due credit for where Maharaji is today. Rich and untouchable. Michael helped build Maharaji's wealth/empire.

Any yet Michael is beyound reproach. He is in no way accountable or responsible. For any of it! Yeah right.

Michael is partly accountable for why this forum exists. He directly helped damage the people one finds here. On this forum one sees many types of people; damaged as in psychologically and emmotionally, confused, hurt people trying to make sense of the ultimate mind fuck, spiritually robbed, and angry to name a few atributes of this forum. Did I miss something? What about the Nuremburgh trials, Watergate, Being charged as an accessory? Is Michael so sweet and innocent? Is he not at all responsible? Is there no accountability on Michael's part? What about having Michael and Maharaji help pay for Steven Quint's hospitalization? How about restitution to some of the families who lost love ones thru Maharaji's cult? Michael was a CEO after all.

If I were Michael I would definately be here trying to smooth over what I had done. Has he really helped brought Maharaji to justice? Would he divulge damaging information about Maharaji, Maharaji's cult, and Michaels part in it without a court order?

But there are those after all......court orders

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 06:18:21 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...
Message:
Tonette:

I think Michael has already stated that he regrets his part in Maharaji's little venture. I'm not sure what more one can do, other than what he's doing now. Do you hold Bob Mishler equally accountable? Did you blow raspberriess at Fred Rogers when he said 'Wontcha be my neighbor?'

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:34:02 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: :) Scott love your posts lately! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 19:16:10 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: :) Scott love your posts lately! (nt)
Message:
Susan:

Thanks. I seem to be finding my own voice after having been overshadowed by some luminaries in a PhD program for a number of years. I'm currently writing some article proposals and thinking seriously about a book proposal, so my brain cells are also undergoing some creative drill instruction. The electoral mess has really grabbed my attention too. A lot of talk about the voters having lost faith in politicians, but I'm thinking there's a case to be made that politicians have lost faith in the voters too.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 19:41:05 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: :) Scott love your posts lately! (yes text)
Message:
Your thinking is good. Continue.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:05:48 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Don't call us Shirley.
Message:
a0aji:

I've heard from a number of people who feel that the primary reason we don't yet have universal national health care in this country is that politicians have been dissuaded by the big money of the insurance industry. The fact is that there's plenty of support for universal health care in the legislature. (I have the NPAT surveys to prove it.) The reason it's not being proposed is that these legislators *believe* that voters will punish them should they make any proposal that enhances the power of government, or that moves in any direction very quickly. While voters indicate around 70% support for a Canadian style healthcare system, this support is a mile wide and an inch deep. So, basically, these legislators have made an accurate assessment of the situation. There appear to be very few legislators of sufficient calibre to turn the tables and 'elect' their constituency (since Pat Moynihan is retiring).

There is no 'perfect' democracy that will allow an electorate composed of children to sustain effective and fair government while maintaining a set of inconsistent demands. No finance reform or electoral reform will 'solve' the problem, because it is improperly defined as a wrongful distribution of power. The distribution of power is, rather, a *result* of the level and distribution of wisdom, which is not so much a matter of education as undisciplined expectations, or perhaps a lack of discursive depth.

We are looking for the wrong kind of leader, and the wrong sort of reform. We are at an impasse that won't be relieved until we begin to address the problem appropriately.

Although I hate to admit it the same may be true with regard to this infection of shoddy religious leaders. If you have a population that expects to be 'cared for' then they will find leaders who at least appear to fulfill their expectations, and there will be plenty of leaders willing to exploit the situation. This isn't to say that we don't need leadership, because leaders can help to clarify an otherwise incoherent situation. But we've got to change our standards and expectations. We should suppress the fiction that we're independent agents in the universe, while recognizing that 'getting along' is a lot more difficult than it seems. There is no magical leadership that can relieve us of the responsibilities of acting consistently on these insights.

In the mean time we probably need to focus on establishing the right institutions, rather than the correct statutes, laws, and porcedures. And these institutions need to be on a 'human scale,' regardless of their purity of principle.

So, I have a $10,000 bill in my pocket. Does anyone have bus change?

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:17:37 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: hehe -nt- (was: Don't call us Shirley.)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:17:21 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I liked that
Message:
tonette, You are just going to have to go through the inactive index and the recent archives and review the M Dettmers posts your self.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:25:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Right on the money, Marianne -- literally (nt)
Message:
ffffff
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:22:42 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: eloquent, incredible Marianne (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:10:05 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Definitely Condemnation
Message:
Wow Marianne,

Really. Everything you said so well and with so much passion hits me right in the heart.

I condemn him too. No doubts about that.

Thank you so much,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:46:29 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Cynthia, Jim, Susan
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Thank you for your responses. This post has been percolating in the back of my mind for several weeks. Nothing like focusing on truly trying to save someone's life to make these issues crystal clear.

Cynthia, thanks for your post about autumn. I grew up in upstate New York, outside Rochester, and I miss the fall terribly! Nice to hear from you.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 19:28:38 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Another Question for Michael Dettmers.....
Message:
Hi Michael,

It's so great to get your comments and the information you are providing. I think it's all very liberating for both premies and ex-premies.

I have another question if you don't mind.

When I was a premie, during the 10 years 1973 - 1983, darshan, the ritualized event when we used to line up and kiss Maharaji's feet, was a very big deal. Maharaji probably gave darshan in North America about 4-5 times a year during the latter part of the 70s and early part of the 80s. After I left the cult in 1983, I wasn't sure if he was still engaging in the practice, but if you read the Elan Vital website, he implies that he isn't doing it anymore, because he got rid of all those 'Hindu rituals.' Note, however that 'darshan' isn't even mentioned, nor is it claimed the practice has been discontinued.

Anyhow, people have reported here that Maharaji has continued to give darshan in India, and that he gave darshan at two big programs in Australia, one in 1996 and one in 1997, so the practice continues, even for Western premies.

Anyhow, I have two questions about darshan. Did Maharaji really believe that darshan removed karma? Did he talk about the benefits a devotee would receive from having darshan? Did he ever talk about the number of people who fainted in darshan, and whether that was real or not? Did he talk about his experience while GIVING darshan? He always appeared to me to be incredibly bored with the whole process, frowning usually, at least when I went through.

Also, I got the impression that Maharaji sometimes engaged in darshan (and really also some festivals) because he was feeling doubts about himself and these were ways to reinforce in himself that he was, indeed, who he said he was -- a being worthy of worship from thousands of people.

Also, during the Boeing 707 plane project, I had a discussion with Dennis Marciniack, the president of Elan Vital, when I was Community Coordinator in Miami, and so much emphasis was on raising money for the plane. Anyhow, Dennis said that Maharaji sometimes netted $250,000 in cash donations when he gave darshan and that this money went directly to Maharaji personally, and not to, or through, Elan Vital. (This has been supported by comments from KK, a finance person for Maharaji.) Marciniak said that in the context of the fact that Maharaji had openly discussed with him the possibility of Maharaji making a one-time donation of the money he got in the next darshan line to the plane project, because he was so keen on it getting finished, and money was always running short.

I remember at the time thinking it was strange to talk about something as supposedly holy and important as darshan as a source of money. I guess my other question is, did Maharaji see darshan as a source of MONEY, and did he engage in the practice partly out of the need to raise money? Also, I remember when the directive came through the initiators that people should refrain from giving token 'gifts' to Maharaji in darshan and to instead give money, and this would be in line with that. Also, we all recall the gauntlet of people handing out envelopes as we went into the 'darshan tunnel' and the big barrels that collected the donations.

Also, did Maharaji ever discuss festivals as also being a source of income? I recall that for awhile entrance feels became quite high, up to around $100, and that was back in the 70s, and he was giving lots of programs, especially in Miami.

Thanks,

Joe

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 22:31:55 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Joe
Subject: Another Question for Michael Dettmers.....
Message:
Joe,

I think I captured all of your questions.

Did Maharaji really believe that darshan removed karma?

Maharaji tended to dismiss accepted spiritual concepts like “karma” and “reincarnation” to name but two. His claim was that knowledge took you beyond all such concepts. I never heard him say that darshan removed karma.

Did he talk about the benefits a devotee would receive from having darshan?

He did say, always in the third person, that Maharaji’s darshan was the greatest gift that can be bestowed upon a devotee.

Did he ever talk about the number of people who fainted in darshan, and whether that was real or not?

His concern in this regard was that they be taken care of (i.e. don’t let them fall and hurt themselves). The darshan recovery room was created for this purpose.

Did he talk about his experience while GIVING darshan?
Not that I am aware of.

Did Maharaji see darshan as a source of MONEY, and did he engage in the practice partly out of the need to raise money?

I had many conversations with Maharaji about money, but I never heard him even suggest that he give darshan to raise money.

Did Maharaji ever discuss festivals as also being a source of income?

Maharaji pretty much left the organization of festivals to the organizers. I remember one incident in the late 70’s, when he got involved in reviewing the proposed budget for one of the large festivals. He got angry because the organizers (me included) simply added up all of the projected costs including his accommodation and transportation, and divided that number by the number of anticipated attendees in order to arrive at a registration fee. That fee turned out to be pretty high (I can’t remember how much it was) and he demanded that we find a way to lower it.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 01:39:36 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Who is Michael Dettmers?
Message:
Don't everyone laugh at once.

Michael, I looked for your Journey, but there wasn't one. Your posts recently have been fascinating. More so if I could place you in context, I'm sure. Can you or anyone tell me in a sentence or two your connection to Maharaji and Elan Vital?
Many thanks,
Jennifer

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:35:29 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jennifer
Subject: Who is Michael Dettmers?
Message:
He was the Guru's sort of right hand man from the mid seventies to early eighties. His 'service' as I understand it was basically running the financial side of the guru's operations. But probably he ought to explain what he really did. I get the impression he was sort of the guru's strategist, financial advisor, and sort of tried to keep the operations solvent and legal.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 15:00:30 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Who is Michael Dettmers? Can u say 'henchman' ???
Message:
sorry nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 06:02:27 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Who is Michael Dettmers?
Message:
Susan:

I thought Michael was the successor to Bob Mishler, but then as a bongo I didn't pay much attention to those things. It appears that at a certain point he simply became a fee-based consultant performing some of the duties you outlined.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 09:04:57 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Makes a good title for a book......nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:38:11 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Thanks, Susan-nt
Message:
Thanks, Susan
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:21:47 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: Jai_Choix@webtv.net
To: Jennifer
Subject: question not well answered. ask mike who he was
Message:
jennifer, you're not getting a true answer here. your innocent question unfortunately triggered some other people's strong feelings and instead of giving you the answer you deserved, you got answers that left you no better off than you were before you asked.


since Michael is reading these posts with us, why not ask him what he felt he was, and what he did in his years with Maharaji? He would be the best one to answer you--as well as himself--on this.


It has been said, somewhere, that the true test of how well one understand's a subject can be gauged by how one answers a child's question about it. If one finds one cannot explain it to a small child, then one has not understood it well enough. since you were a child when all this was happening around you, this should be an excellent moment, for both you and michael, as well as the rest of us, to hear what michael finds he can tell you about his role in all this.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:46:09 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: question not well answered. ask mike who he was
Message:
I did ask Mike, but also opened it up for everyone else, too, in case he wasn't here tonight. :)
Take care,
Jennifer
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:32:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet of venice
Subject: Janet, please see post below to Tonette (nt)
Message:
fffffff
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:55:46 (GMT)
From: Janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: read it b4 i decided to post N E way, mr.fussy
Message:
are you a virgo??

and did you remember to take that nice warm enema i prescribed you, the other day? you still show significant symptoms of irritability

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:02:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Janet
Subject: Will you give it to me, nurse?
Message:
Sorry, Laur.

But what are you doing reading this stupid ol' cult page of mine anyway?

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:21:25 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: sure. you'll like my technique, too.(OT!)
Message:
i don't use the bag. I invented a home colonic setup I've shown to all my roomates, over the years. all you need is six feet of half-inch, clear surgical vinyl tubing, a bathtub, and one of those detachable shampoo sprays they sell in the discount stores. there's nothing quite so releasing and comforting when the world has kept you from really relaxing and leting it all go. I recommend it. Really, Jim.I do. in fact, I'm overdue, myself...

******************************** oh--and what am i doing here? same thing you are. thanks for the arena. is IS ok to spar with the owner, isn't it?? you like it, doncha.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:18:57 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The nt post or the one
Message:
about the enema?
And what does that have to do with what I wrote to you?
I can't remember mentioning an enema, except of course, if this is your way of telling me to perhaps...'blow it out my ass?'

Your favorite admirer, Tonette. ps after all it is your forum.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:09:21 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jennifer
Subject: I missed the other posts too
Message:
Don't feel bad. I knew who MD was from the old days but would not have known otherwise. I saw many recent posts referencing Michael's posts here earlier this year or late last year but I missed them all. May have been during my uh, break last summer/fall. And as usual I am too lazy to search the archives.

Initially a few months ago I was very skeptical but the thing is he was very well known and I am thinking that those reading this site would have let Michael know someone was impersonating him (if someone was.)

And I think it's worth considering his posts, for historical purposes if nothing else. EV has done enough to try to bury the past. And a lot of what he says resonates with what other PAPAMs
have said.
- someone here coined that phrase:
People around People Around M

If some of the newer people had been subject to this much doubt and scrutiny on posts would they have lasted here I wonder?

oh well i'm grumpy. Been babysitting a toddler cutting molars.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:17:54 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: My son has pink eye
Message:
so I can relate

Thanks, Selene. So I guess Michael is a Pam then and not a personal trainer (LOL) That Jim Heller...what in the hell are we going to do with him, anyway?
Good luck babysitting, girl!

Jennifer

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:27:05 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jennifer
Subject: well the toddler is easier than Jim
Message:
because I have this sneaky suspicion Jim loves all the ruckus.
oops.

He is being very grumpy and hard to deal with but I feel so sorry for him. The baby I mean, not Jim.

Yeah Michael was one of those running the business end of the show. Something most of us never even considered at the time.
I mean we thought M was Lord. Why would he need management?

Did you ever get a chance to read Soul Rush?
and please excuse my (ahem) computer illerteracy but I am going to paste this:
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/soul_rush.htm

To be honest I can't remember if Michael is mentioned anywhere in this but it does help to explain the transitional stages at the very start.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:37:10 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Soul Rush
Message:
Thanks Selene
I have been meaning to get around to Soul Rush. Is Michael in the book Who is Guru Maharaji? That is sitting downstairs and I could look in there, too.
Jenn
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:39:06 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jennifer
Subject: ugh I can't remember that WIGMJ
Message:
I had to opportunity to participate in viewing it heheh
a while back but was too busy.
I know some others have it around.
Anyone? personally I doubt anyone was mentioned but M and anyone famous he influenced at the time. Just a guess.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:34:40 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Soul Rush
Message:
Hi Selene.

There is information about Michael Dettmers in Soul Rush.

I recommend reading the entire posted portions to everyone.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:36:41 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: I was very moved by her writing
Message:
I agree Marianne everyone should read that. liked your post above too!
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:09:50 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Selene and all
Subject: where do i go to read it? is it on the site?
Message:
or are you referring to the paperback book by sofia?? (who, by the way, came on to me in the basement of the Shelter in Denver, once, in 1974, while we were doing laundry after Amherst, and I've regretted that i didnt take her up on it, for a lifetime, since! she was loads more fun than pipsqueak ever was!
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:13:40 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: It's on the site
Message:
Hi janet. Go to the DLM/EV papers, to the section where you can download the site. Then you'll see the entry for Soul Rush. It is Sophia's book. Full of enlightening info, especially now.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:45:45 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: It's on the site-i can't download w/ webtv!!
Message:
we on webtv dont have removable storage like you guys on pc do. we can, however uncompress zipped files online. i wonder if i can read it online page by page, or chapter by chapter. i have done it with other books that have been serialized on other sites.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:59:02 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: it is not a book it is a URL
Message:
right here on the site.
Once again: OK OK I'll try the html!
soul rush
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:06:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: again
Subject: ok I am going to do this until it works
Message:
you can delete all of it FA but I'm mad at myself here:

Soul Rush

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 09:03:15 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: got it. read it. wrote to mike. see above.tx
Message:
asdfghjkl;
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:13:08 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: sophia and amherst
Message:
My old home town, sort of. I lived there a lot from age 12 on anyway.
yeah the book was in paperback. Is it still in print?
the url here on
EPO has excerpts:
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/soul_rush.htm
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:24:52 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: ne1
Subject: sophia and amherst
Message:
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/soul_rush.htm

This book (hardcover) was in the New Britain Public Library (in Connecticut) when I lived nearby - many years ago. I read the whole thing back when I first found it.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:28:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: who is ne l? just kidding
Message:
It's my browser or the rain.
Thanks. I'll look for the book.

I was just in East Windsor. And points north in Masachusettes.
It was beautiful but made me sad. These extremes in weather may suit my moods but they are getting old!

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:31:16 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: ne1==anyone its a mnemonic (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:16:31 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: It was in hardback too
Message:
I left my copy on Anth's table in Paris......

How's the desert, Selene?

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:25:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: it's been raining for days
Message:
everyone is disoriented. The sirens are ringing more often than ever in my hood because the streets are flooded an no one knows how to drive in weather. But I LOVE the rain.
So it's still in print? I'll go look on Amazon.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:41:00 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Thanks, Selene -nt
Message:
xxxxx
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:29:00 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jenn a ps
Subject: oh and ps
Message:
I *did* answer you as 'true' :) as I could!!
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:33:05 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jennifer
Subject: Michael is M's right hand man
Message:
But Michael left Maharaji, at least that is how he tells it. Michael got Maharaji to where he is now.

Michael gave lots of 'devotional' satsang. Got alot of people to do otherwise what their common sense told them was wacked. Michael was a real 'inspiration.'

Now Michael gets red carpet treatment here. Why? Don't know.

If you ask me, Michael was part of what was wrong with the whole scene circa 1975-1985. Michael has no regrets. He ended up with a great career. Although, by his oun accounts, Michael knew Maharaji was a fraud much sooner than when Michael stopped talking that 'Lord of the Universe' crap.

But Michael is okay now because he comes here with the real truth that Michael knew a long, long, time ago. He's sharing it with us now. Isn't that great?

Michael is absolved according to EPO. Michael did no wrong and is never to held accountable!

Food for thought, Tonette

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:22:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jennifer
Subject: Michael Dettmers was m's personal trainer
Message:
You know, Jennifer, sometimes even a coach needs a coach. Well, Dettmers is responsible for Maharaji's workout program.

Where you been anyway?

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:07:06 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: garfarboleets@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Michael can you fit me in?
Message:
Hey, Jim, how's it going? I thought you read my journey. You told me how much you liked it, remember? I was a kid when all this happened and I had/have premie family members. I didn't keep up with the Pams...didn't even know who they were cause I was too young. Also, like you said this was a rinky-dink cult in the scheme of things. It's not like Michael was on the cover of People magazine or anything (was he?) No slight intended, Michael, that's probably for the best.

I can tell Michael is getting treated with some celebrity so I figured he was a big wig around Maharaji. But specifically who he was, I didn't know.

I could use a personal trainer, however. Michael what is your schedule looking like this week? :)

Charmed as usual, Jim
Jennifer

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:38:50 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: She asked a sincere question
Message:
She honestly didn't know. Why insult her?

Want to venture how many people/sensitive souls you have driven from here/hurt by your comments?

Saying Dettmers was Maharaji's 'workout coach' really does not illuminate what Dettmers really was.

Where has she been? Probably living her LIFE!

Yeah but it's your forum, I forgot, Tonette

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:29:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Tonette? Shut up, will you please?
Message:
That was a joke, Tonette. You know, like in JOKE?

Christ!

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:59:52 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Beats 'fuck off' anyday Jim
Message:
But no, I thought you were serious. For real. Sorry I missed your joke.

We definately have different senses of humor to say the least. You don't get my humor and I have a hard time reading yours. Sorry. Not much I can do about it.

But shut up is rude too! (joke, as in hardeharharhar)

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:03:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Please see my post above to Janet (nt)
Message:
ffffffff
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:20:30 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't miss my post right there too! nt
Message:
nt ffffffuuuuuuccccckk uuuuuuu
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:03:47 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Jennifer
Subject: Hi Jennifer (ot)
Message:
Jennifer: I've lost your email address. Could you send me an email? I met one of your sister's pals.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:56:42 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: garfarboleets@hotmail.com
To: Marianne
Subject: Hi Marianne (ot)
Message:
Super, Marianne!
She will be happy to hear it.

How are you doing, anyway? Oh, you can tell me in e-mail.
garfarboleets@hotmail.com

Tis the season in retail,so if I don't get to my e-mail right away, give me a few days,
Jennifer

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 23:01:44 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Another Question for Michael Dettmers.....
Message:
I distinctly remember maharaji explaining at a program how knowledge would remove karma. I think it was between 1979-1981. He might have used a story from the Hindu scriptures to make his point, but I can't remember that part for sure.
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:53:51 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: If I had to sit in a chair and wonder whether the
Message:
next person through was going to take a bite out of my toe instead of kissing it, I'd want at the minimum a good tranquilliser, and perhaps a joint to relieve the tedium of not allowing my mind to wander off the platform of certainty of my worthiness to receive such worship. I imagine he feels he deserves all that hard earned money.

Ah, the life of a devotee, where one is worthless dust at the feet of ones beloved, what else to do but buy some mink lined socks for the Lord.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 20:31:24 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: world's costliest whore--!
Message:
and he didnt even get you a private room for the encounter...'ah crap. wallet's empty again. guess i gotta hit the streets and go ta work. lets see...perfume my hair...nice tight outfit...some nice jewlry...hmmm--the gold or the silver?..wheres my mouthwash? arhglglglglglgptwwhhhh!...can they smell that smoke??(whiffs into his cupped hands, wrinkles nose) ahh fuck it. I'll just keep my mouth shut. now...where's my call list of johns? oh! right! here we go (sits down to the phone)'ah, hello, Dennis?...ah, i was wondering if you could call a little meeting for me at the convention center ?, say in about an hour?? Just the local premies. yes. I feel like giving darshan. I miss the premies so much. yes. yes. that would be fine. Oh--and dennis? tell them not to get all dressed up. i feel like being casual tonight. something very simple. tell them not to waste their money on uneccessary expenses. it'll just be for them to see me. ok. goodbye'

stands up, does a little shake in the mirror, smiles as a car bombs across the causeway road, pumping out the strains of 'lookin for some Hot Stuff, baby this evenin'..' and walks out the door, car keys twirling on finger.

...................->V<-................
[later that night]'Dennis, would you just leave those barrels in my dressing room and let me be alone? I'll lock up when i leave. I don't want anyone around tonight.You can go'.
[listens for sounds fading away into silence. peeps out door, sees no one, shuts door and lock himself in with his take.]'hmmm... not as much as i'd hoped, but enough to make a buy. okay. time to get crackin''(giggles at his own joke as he folds the wads of cash and stuffs them in his various pockets) As he hustles out to his Maserati, he frets'i hope that guy in the Grove got his shipment in...' guns the engine in the miami night, and bombs off across the bay, in quest of some peruvian marching powder, from the expensive side of town...

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 18:09:02 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: LORD MAHARAJ's RAPID COMMUNICATION SYSTEM(RCS)
Message:
Just got this from EV-you ex'ers are gonna be realllll jealous. Our Lord is establishing a Rapid Communication System for short notice events....I smell some foot kissing coming real soooooooon!!

HE may look fat and stupid but HE is one slick Hindu-dude....remember all of us sold HIM our soul for HIS PRECIOUS KNOWLEDGE.

Just wanted to share the good news with all you LOVERS OF OUR LORD....now back to my shots and beer Day(with HIS HOLY NAME, of course)

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:13:58 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: Oh no - not the phone tree again!!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:43:36 (GMT)
From: mahasad
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: LORD MAHARAJ's RAPID COMMUNICATION SYSTEM(RCS)
Message:
A protest avoidance technique.
We could have rapid strike forces in different continents ready to respond to his quick events.
If we play that up, he will feel compelled to ratchet up the security paranoia to defcon 4
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 01:40:32 (GMT)
From: La La La Lola
Email: don't eat before reading...
To: all
Subject: The Wonderful World of Magic !!!
Message:
I am an event manager for the Satellite events in Central London. I remember the day after I saw the broadcast on 23rd April I wrote 'Today I feel like I have been given a kiss from a sweet love inside'. There is something very direct happening at these events, between my teacher and me. I know a lot of people are watching them around the world and it is exciting, but on a lot of occasions what has been said feels like it has been addressed to me, it's very intimate. I can see what he is doing now, and where he wants to go. As someone said, 'I can follow him around the world without travelling'. For me, I know there is nothing like seeing him personally, however at these events I have a feeling that he is sitting down, talking, enjoying, spending his time with us and I am very grateful.

I come here to help be in touch with myself. It may sound strange, considering that while helping here, I normally come across a lot of people, but it is like that. There is a feeling of simplicity, and quietness, and you see and understand more deeply than you usually would. You gain skills by doing things and learn to work with different people, but you don't have to prove anything to anyone. The main benefit for me is the connection I feel within, it's very good company...

oooowwwww save me slice of that, baby

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:45:32 (GMT)
From: mensa
Email: None
To: La La La Lola
Subject: The Wonderful World of Magic !!! FOR REAL!!!
Message:
Is so adorable to have the opportunity to love our Lordy. He is so cute and chubby it makes me want to scream. I always warn the premies sitting by me to contend me, because i feel I'll lose my mind: He's so adorable and HIS grace is so profund I feel like I will vomit soon.

JSCA

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 01:51:56 (GMT)
From: Juicy Jenny
Email: allmen are pigs.com
To: La La La Lola
Subject: The world is a carousel of color !!!
Message:
Maharaji blew me away again with kindness a few weekends ago in Miami Beach. Since the day was focussed on the practice of Knowledge, it's appropriate that what I remember is him saying that in my breath, the infinite and the finite meet. 'Every breath is a blessing', he said. 'People ask for blessings for this and that, but they wouldn't know one if they saw one. The universe is breathing into you, that infinity is coming into you with every breath.'[rough paraphrase] I got the image of a big fat Buddha with a huge belly, breathing in and out, and me right up against his tummy. Like a child, sleeping beside his mother, falls into the same breathing rhythm, their chests rising and falling together,safe and secure in the harbour of her breath, so I also am being taken care of with every breath.

He said, If you don't listen to your heart, that is the biggest lie. Romance the heart. Have the attitude of gratitude. If you feel that gratitude in your heart at the end of the day, you know you haven't wasted it.

I sat under the palm trees on the hotel patio having dinner that night, dinner for one. On the radio Sade was singing 'This is no ordinary love'. The palm trees danced in the wind, caressed by the Florida air, lit up by little white Christmas lights wound around their smooth trunks. It was a very romantic dinner, enveloped as I was, by the feeling of a big breath breathing me alive. The feeling of thank you came naturally, all by itself, into my heart. Thank you, Maharaji.

Jennifer Boire, Montreal

PS to myself: be sure to pack 'old faithful' next time, and an extra set of batteries...


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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:48:40 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Juicy Jenny and all
Subject: it makes perfect sense...(wait-not like that)
Message:
think about it: he's hit his mid forties. He's gettin tired of global jet lag. he's afraid of disruptions from guys like us. He doesnt want money wasted on those other nondeserving parties, like the hotels, the airlines, the convention halls, when it could all be going to him!! what lazier and safer way to keep the leash on without the hassle, than by satellite feed? no muss, no fuss, no bother. just sit down in front of a camera and let your mind wander vacantly all around on the random concept, and quit when you get bored. oh--and no need to endure those tedious premies, all moon eyed and sighing at you, and impeding your every move. and when even that gets to be too much to ask, you can always tell someone to slap a video up there to pacify the hordes. what could be simpler? Next he'll have an all-maharaji channel: all him, all the time, video without end. the PTL club did it. the PAX channel did it. why not?? I'm surprised I haven't heard any rude jokes about SATellite Guru has come, so allow me to be the first...
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:15:52 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Hypnosis repost for Hamzen
Message:
'When the spell is broken...'

They think I'm a hypnotist. A reasonable assumption given that I research the stuff, running hypnotic inductions with task suggestions, 'wake up' cues and the rest. Newcomers understand the script in advance and act their roles in good faith trusting me to deliver an experience. And it seems to work.

But no way am I an accomplished hypnotist. I am not ANY kind of hypnotist since I neither believe in hypnosis or hypnotists, accomplished or otherwise. Or to clarify: I don't believe in a 'trance state' or those common-sense-defying effects: loss of volition, hypnotic amnesia, anaesthesia, deafness, post-hypnotic suggestion, past-life regression etc. - the spooky stuff.

Hypnotists have no skills beyond everyday powers of persuasion - and no more than the average person. Yet these can be as effective as the 'divine' powers of a guru for invoking, infecting and manipulating the belief and compliant behaviour of others. Anyone could do it. It matters not whether I use my own voice or an induction tape. Context is half of the effect - for the rest, an implicit assumption of authority and specialised knowledge on my part.

Strip hypnosis of its popular connotations and silly ritual and what remains is commonplace and uncontroversial: focused attention, deep relaxation, imaginative engagement in a given task are no more than what they are. The 'hypnosis' label is redundant. The main determinant of whether people interpret their experience as 'hypnosis' is their conviction that what they are experiencing is hypnosis. Call it 'deep relaxation' and they will experience deep relaxation instead.

And if the bloke in charge is a 'Master' supposedly 'revealing Knowledge', the subject will interpret whatever feelings of well-being show up in that context as 'Knowledge'. (Highly susceptibles will exhibit disturbing signs of subservience and self-loathing by kissing carpet and leaving wallet at the door.)

The will to believe, to transcend the everyday by way of novel experience and to look for earthly St Christophers to carry you override any honest desire to examine or understand the ordinary mysteries of consciousness and emotion. For a believer to scrutinise the circumstances which give rise to their inner sensations, or draw comparisons with analogous experiences is beyond the pale. I would challenge any premie who offer 'it's about personal experience' by way of proof to explain the distinctions between a personal experience of 'hypnosis', 'deep relaxation' and 'meditation on the Word' - or a thousand other go-within paths and practices...

Sigmund Freud said something interesting (in a career of much bullshit and myth-making!) when he observed that the experience of being hypnotised is like being 'in love'. I think he was quite astute here - spotted something about deep relaxation that is universal. Relax and focus enough, shut out the perceptual and cognitive overload and your 'heart' starts to twinkle. The serotonin flows, the synapses spark and your world takes on a rosy glow. And a fake hypnotist delivering his spiel, or a fake Master 'giving satsang' facilitates the worldly detachment process effectlvely enough. No magic involved, though no less enchanting for all that.

Focus on the breath is hardly Maharaji's 'gift', nor is anything transmitted during his secret induction ritual (can people believe that in the twenty-first century?), any more than a hypnotist's snap of the fingers will induce hypnosis. But awareness of the breath is inevitable when you remove your focus from external and internal stressors. Those who achieve such moments return to the cradle (long lost eternal home?), and very nice too - if boring after about twenty minutes. Yes, boring and ultimately unfulfilling, since they never 'go deeper' or 'realise' their experience, for there is no deeper, and no realisation to arrive at.

Why else would premies come here to chew the fat with sad losers when they have such an allegedly precious opportunity waiting in every breath...

But if people experience benefits from that feeling, by whatever label, then what is the damage? Does any of this matter?

Yes, it does matter.

Suppose I were to package and promote a Self Hypnosis Procedure (call it 'SHP'), free of charge (but donations permissible) as a life-enhancing panacea. This would be a legal, potentially lucrative (if morally questionable) enterprise.

But suppose I went one further and pronounced that: yes, SHP is yours to experience, but you won't receive it unless you first show 'understanding' - by means unspecified - and will then not work properly unless you come watch me on video thrice weekly and buy a satellite dish. Again, this would be legal, potentially lucrative but - surely - morally indefensible (even if I sincerely believed in my own methods, since they would involve my manipulation of others without any independent confirmation of my expertise or the efficacy my teachings from disinterested parties.)

Then suppose I then threw in an implicit Creatonist world-view: that human beings were designed purely for this experience (- no, make that my experience), and should therefore abandon attachments and ambitions, even sideline family and friends in its pursuit.

Then I added a messianic hook: that it was not only my own Grace or power that made the Self Hypnosis possible but also my express command which enables the world to turn.

Or that once you have bought into my trip, a life of 'respect' and 'gratitude' are in order, expressible in unpaid labour and fancy goods.

And suppose I warned that those who abandoned the path would crash and burn then turned a deaf ear to ex-followers now claiming my teachings were a mind-fuck.

And, instead of listening to critics, attempted to silence them whilst denying past claims and directives...

Legal? - Sure!
Lucrative? - You bet!
But morally...?

At the very least I should have some explaining to do. And the people I had exploited - in good faith, or otherwise - and who may have given up a fat slice of their adult lives following my instructions to the letter would have every right to move heaven and earth to hold me to account for as long as I continued to tout the mirage to a willing and all-too-gullible public.

Our collective will is powerful and shall triumph. Margie - and all the lawyers in the world - are powerless to resist.

'The glass is falling hour by hour, the glass will fall forever.
But if you break the bloody glass
You won't hold up the weather.'

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 13:22:11 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Thanx for that Nigel
Message:
Ok for going in the newsletter?

On another one, BIG UP to you for the Planxty, West Coast of Clare is getting caned. Forgotten how much I loved that track!

I didn't leave my kangol hat at your place did I?

Got a few things to chew over with ya, e-maill later.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 21:34:35 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Thanx for that Nigel
Message:
Sure, Ham - no copyright - use it as you like. What colour's the hat? I haven't noticed one, but I left my own in the pub, so if I find yours I'll steal it, ok?

Planxty - yeah! There's more to life than beats-per-minute, you know ;)

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:59:33 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: 'Boring' - wrong word. A belated afterthought...
Message:
Nigel, you wrote:

Focus on the breath is hardly Maharaji's 'gift', nor is anything transmitted during his secret induction ritual (can people believe that in the twenty-first century?), any more than a hypnotist's snap of the fingers will induce hypnosis. But awareness of the breath is inevitable when you remove your focus from external and internal stressors. Those who achieve such moments return to the cradle (long lost eternal home?), and very nice too - if boring after about twenty minutes. Yes, boring and ultimately unfulfilling, since they never 'go deeper' or 'realise' their experience, for there is no deeper, and no realisation to arrive at.

Hitting a peak experience is never boring. 'Boring' vs 'interesting' are the wrong terms of reference here. Meditation only gets boring after twenty minutes when you fail to feel much but keep struggling anyway (which tends to be the norm for many).

The reason those who hit the place of happy placidity can't stay there forever is that we are as yet stone-age hunter-gatherers, adult hom saps with needs, drives, tools to whittle and lottery tickets to fill in. Our biology doesn't equip us for loitering long in blissville - or for making it happen in premeditated hour-long slots. Feelgood moments happen when they happen - the ones most worth having occuring well away from the meditation (security) blanket.

Formal meditation condemns most practitioners to chronic sensations of failure and inadequacy because, by nature, it is unnatural.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:21:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Not bad post, Nige
Message:
Bet you didn't notice that your Self Hypnosis Procedure is the same acronym as the monogram of one Sanford Hippie Pass.

If you'd have caught that, I'd say you'd be on your way to a very good post indeed. Not great, but very good, maybe very, very good.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 22:53:51 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: That's a good one Nigel
Message:

.....And it's no go the Satguru ,

It's no go Maharaj ,

All we want is our money back ,

And your Fat Arse on a charge.

(acknowledgements & apologies to Louis MacNiece)

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 11:47:03 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Bagpipe Music (ot)
Message:
Nice one Bin, not to say well spotted! 'Bagpipe Music' is my favourite poem, but I'm not quite sure why. Not even sure why I quoted it in the hypnosis piece, but it sort of 'felt' right. (Oh, God, does that sound premieish?)

Have you any idea what MacNiece is on about?

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 01:45:02 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Bagpipe Music (ot)
Message:

I don't know much about him , except a vague recollection of reading somewhere that he never fitted in to the London literary scene of his time too much.

To me ,his poems come from a mind/spirit with a passion for Life & Truth , & a total refusal to accept lies & superficiality.

From reading 'Bagpipe Music' I'd say he was seriously pissed off about social change in the aftermath of WW1 , especially its undermining of traditional Scots virtues of self reliance etc.

Be that as it may ,the feeling is one of outrage against falsehood , which is why it was an appropriate end to your interesting post.

The 'Yogi-Man' of course was Ramakrishna.

I've just re-read 'Thalassa', which I never understood the 1st time , but now makes me feel very uncomfortable indeed.

..........And your past life a ruined church
But let your poison be your cure.
..................................

Puffdaddy don't know what mean tough.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 21:40:01 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Bagpipe Music (ot)
Message:
Thanks Bin,

Interesting stuff. Are you sure the Yogi-Man isn't Krishamurti - or is that who you meant? (I'm thinking of the 'Blavatski' reference in the same line).

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 00:34:51 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Krishnamurti, yes, slandered the wrong lord . (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 18:09:27 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Great Post, Nigel (nt)
Message:
nnn
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 16:15:04 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: It's all here
Message:
in case anyone didn't already know. X rated premies, dope, Maharaji's whole charade and the effect it's had upon people.

Click here for The Truth about Maharaji

I've been told that my site reads like 'The National Enquirer'.

Hey, I take that as a compliment!

But you guys did most of the writing.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:48:00 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Cult Busters Anonymous
Message:
From your web site -Who are they?Are they real ?? If so have you got their Email address??
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 22:55:15 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Cult Busters Anonymous
Message:
If you're refering to 'Cult buster's anonymous' then I haven't got a clue who it is or they are. They are, as the name suggests, anonymous.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 08:47:01 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Cult Busters Anonymous
Message:
http://www.cultbusters.com/ appears to be a holding site for CBA. It has an email button for those who are using an integrated browser and emailer.

I found it with a search engine recommended by Salam.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 14:53:00 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Went to Newport
Message:
Went to Newport yesterday, what a beautiful fall day it was. Not too many big boats there. Asked a few marina people, but they did not know anything about Serenity. Well, maybe better luck next month in Miami.
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:46:50 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Went to Newport
Message:
Dear jondon,

That's what my sister has told me. Once Labor Day goes by, the tourist areas roll up for the winter, so the yacht is likely somewhere south. I haven't had a chance to talk to her husband, as they just moved up from Virginia (a transfer for him) and have been very busy.

I called the RI airport 'Tibbets' by mistake in my post because I've just finished reading a book about Paul Tibbets the Enola Gay pilot...and it was on my mind. It's the TF Greene airport. Everywhere he has worked as an air traffic controller, including Las Vegas (where the Area 51 planes would take off with the aircraft windows blacked out (for the passengers), and the controllers would just give them clearance to take off by saying 'you know where you're going, see ya.' But I digress.

He has FAA clearance to go anywhere on airport grounds. I can't imagine a reason for m to stop there this time of year, but I'll give him the specs/call nos. on the plane, etc. He's the type of guy who wouldn't be afraid to approach the plane, and strike up a conversation.

That's it for now...

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:29:14 (GMT)
From: JONDON
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Went to Newport
Message:
GUESS YOU SISTER WAS RIGHT. WILL LOOK FOR IT IN MIAMI IN NOVEMBER
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:30:24 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: the plane
Message:
I'm still trying to verify whether N41PR is still the n-number of Rawat's plane. Does your brother have access to information on aircraft beyond what is on the internet?
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:13:46 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: G
Subject: the plane
Message:
Hi G,

I actually don't know. As I said, my brother-in-law and sister just moved and have a 2yr old and a 4 mo. old, so they're quite busy. I'll ask him when I can and get back to you.

Best :))
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 15:43:34 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Went to Newport, and all that jazz
Message:
For people do see Maharaji as a world-class teacher, then one little yacht is no biggie in their eyes. After all, if he came for the whole planet, then he needs world class transportation for land, sea and air. And if he came for the whole planet, what's a yacht in the big picture?

If people do not see Maharaji as a world-class teacher, then one little yacht is a real biggie in their eyes, and an extravagance that seriously tries the sensibilities of those who witness it, and it is seen by such people as a selfish, materialistic trip.

The beauty (or the ugliness) is in the eye of the beholder. There is not now, nor ever will be, an agreement between these two mindsets. Why bother banging heads?

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 01:21:02 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: You are to stupid to notice
Message:
but then I do not blame you.
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:39:47 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: 102ft long, 7.5 million dollars - 'little'?!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 16:59:01 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: 'little yacht'
Message:

little yacht

A 106 feet yacht is not little, quite the opposite, it's huge. That's why yachts of that size are called megayachts.

... if he came for the whole planet, then he needs world class transportation for land, sea and air.

What do you mean by 'he came for the whole planet'? What evidence do you have for whatever you mean by that? And why do you qualify it with 'if'?

And then how does it follow the he 'needs world class transportation for land, sea and air'? What does having a 106' luxury megayacht have to do with 'coming' for the whole planet? What's he going to do, go out into the ocean with it and then teach the world from it by mental telepathy? This mental telepathy can't happen unless he's out in the ocean on a luxury megayacht? He's supposed to be all-powerful, or something like that, so why would a megayacht be needed? What does the yacht do, act as an amplifier? Or do you think he's going to go on a world tour with this yacht? That's a pretty slow way to travel.

Let's hear your explanation.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:52:50 (GMT)
From: Philip
Email: None
To: G
Subject: 'little yacht'
Message:
If you heard Madonna had a 'little' yacht or a 'megayacht' would it bother you. If you heard about anyone else having a yacht, would it bother you??? All power to him ... I say .... he got his shit together and knows how to enjoy life and play the stock market!!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 00:03:45 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Philip
Subject: 'little yacht'
Message:
Madonna

. never told her fans to live an austere life style or
to give her a large chunk of their paycheck. How much
does a fan of Madonna pay for her CDs and movies? Not much.
She makes a lot of money because she has so many fans.
Rawat gets a few thousand people to give him a significant
portion of their money.

. doesn't preach about how happiness comes from within,
how the material world is all an illusion, etc.
She had a song called 'Material Girl', so if she lives it
up, and I assume she does, there is no hypocrisy involved.

. is honest about charging for her singing and acting.

. doesn't have a non-profit organisation registered as
a charity and a church as a front to avoid paying taxes.

. doesn't hide the fact that she makes money off of her
singing and acting.

. didn't have her fans slave for her for no money to build
her a house, remodel an airplane for her, etc.

. is probably much more sensible when it comes to spending
money.


... knows how to enjoy life and play the stock market!!

What evidence do you have that he makes money playing
the stock market? I say none. If you've got some, tell
me about it. There IS evidence that he makes money off
premies, lots of money.

As to him 'enjoying life' (i.e. indulging in all sorts
of extravagant luxuries, allegedly cheating on his wife,
allegedly having a drinking and drug problem), I wouldn't
have a high opinion of that no matter who he was. In Rawat's
case, it conflicts with much of his 'message', so there's
an issue of hypocrisy. The excuse that the same rules don't
apply to him is bullshit.


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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 23:04:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Philip
Subject: Little brain, Philip?
Message:
That is such a stupid thing to say, you have no idea. You must be lost in a cult.

Just know this -- anyone in the world, outside your stupid cult, would see lots wrong with the situation. Lots.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:28:43 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: G
Subject: 'little yacht', a Dissertation and Interrogatory
Message:
'little yacht'
A Dissertation and Interrogatory by the Indignant Captial G

A 106 feet yacht is not little, quite the opposite, it's huge. That's why yachts of that size are called megayachts.

... if he came for the whole planet, then he needs world class transportation for land, sea and air.

What do you mean by 'he came for the whole planet'? What evidence do you have for whatever you mean by that? And why do you qualify it with 'if'?

And then how does it follow the he 'needs world class transportation for land, sea and air'? What does having a 106' luxury megayacht have to do with 'coming' for the whole planet? What's he going to do, go out into the ocean with it and then teach the world from it by mental telepathy? This mental telepathy can't happen unless he's out in the ocean on a luxury megayacht? He's supposed to be all-powerful, or something like
that, so why would a megayacht be needed? What does the yacht do, act as an amplifier? Or do you think he's going to go on a world tour with this yacht? That's a pretty slow way to travel.

Let's hear your explanation. -the Indignant Capital G

Dear ICG,

Q: What do you mean by 'he came for the whole planet'? What evidence do you have for whatever you mean by that? And why do you qualify it with 'if'?

A: I was merely setting up the two basic sides to the ongoing debate here, 'is he or ain't he?', and presenting the no-win situation of trying to discuss it with any common agreement. Thought that was obvious and still do. Come on, you knew.

Q: And then how does it follow the he 'needs world class transportation for land, sea and air'? What does having a 106' luxury megayacht have to do with 'coming' for the whole planet? What's he going to do, go out into the ocean with it and then teach the world from it by mental telepathy?

A: For business or pleasure or whatever he wants to do with it, it's his to do with it as he pleases, IF you accept him as your teacher without question. Then again, if you are a negative devotee - someone who is negatively devoted to him, otherwise known as an ex-premie - the yacht and all it represents will be used as yet another example to negative figure ground him.

Has it ever occurred to you that there may be some serious problems with air travel in the near future? Either from solar activity and natural or man-made problems on earth in the atmosphere? I remember back in 1977 in Rome when Maharaji predicted the problems with commercial air travel that we now face, and presented his need for his own aircraft and educating himself to fly it. It all happened pretty much the way he said it would. I was there and I remember. I have not heard anything from him about air travel problems coming up that would require a seaworthy craft such as the Serenity, but my common sense and feeling the 'weather' tells me it ain't just a toy. This is just something I am feeling and not the reflections of anyone else's thoughts but my own.

In as simple terms as I can, G, all I was saying is that for a true teacher, even a fleet of yachts is not an extravagance...and for a fraud, even one megayacht is an insult and a crime. The yacht is not the issue for you, Maharaji is the issue. And every thing that comes up, from land, sea and air vehicles, real estate, personal habits, and whatever you can get your hands on, there is this mob criticism that pervades this site. So what else is there to say? Not much.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 01:44:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: 'little yacht'
Message:
Aren't you the humble one, not capitalizing your initials. I'm impressed by your incredible modesty. I, on the other hand, am so proud that I have the gall to capitalize my alias. I guess I'm going to hell with all the people who capitalize their name.

I did ask you some questions which went largely unanswered. The only 'answer' I got was a fantasy about problems with air travel.

I asked what you meant by 'he came for the whole planet' and what evidence you have. You respond with 'is he or ain't he?'

Is he or ain't he what? You can't even come out with it.

His pleasure has nothing to do with 'coming' for the whole world. As for business, what did you have in mind, charging premies $5,000 to attend a seminar on the yacht where they have the 'opportunity' to 'examine themselves' in front of 'the speaker'?

I don't accept his even being a teacher, so your made up term 'negative devotee' doesn't apply, nor does it make sense.

Has it ever occurred to you that there may be some serious problems with air travel in the near future? Either from solar activity and natural or man-made problems on earth in the atmosphere?

That's very unlikely, and if there were such problems, we would have a much bigger problem than him not being able to globetrot. You're very fuzzy about exactly what problems could stop air travel. Solar activity? Problems in the atmosphere? This justification is also predicated on the idea that he's 'the Master' and the supposed necessity of his 'physical presense'. If so, than why auto-knowledge? How could teaching the techniques by DVD video work?

Those problems with commercial air travel did not occur. We are facing no such problems. Premies use commercial air travel to go see him, don't they?

Calling Serenity a 'seaworthy craft' is like calling his former mansion (the one replaced by the bigger, better mansion) in Malibu a 'delapidated structure'.

... my common sense and feeling the 'weather' tells me it ain't just a toy.

Predicting doomsday? Oh yes, Caption Rawat travels around the world in his luxury yacht to save humanity as civilisation crumbles.

This is just something I am feeling and not the reflections of anyone else's thoughts but my own.

I should hope not.

for a true teacher, even a fleet of yachts is not an extravagance

It's strange to think that morals do not apply to someone who is sufficiently 'enlightened'. In 'Crime and Punishment' Raskolnikov thinks of himself as an extraordinary man who is beyond the rules. He commits murder in an attempt to illustrate that concept to himself.


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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:40:20 (GMT)
From: SHP
Email: None
To: G
Subject: 'little yacht'
Message:
Aren't you the humble one, not capitalizing your initials. I'm impressed by your incredible modesty. I, on the other hand, am so proud that I have the gall to capitalize my alias. I guess I'm going to hell with all the people who capitalize their name. -G

It wasn't the capitalization, it was the tactile indignation that seeped through my screen from your post. -SHP

The only 'answer' I got was a fantasy about problems with air travel. -G

Time will tell. -SHP

Is he or ain't he what? You can't even come out with it. -G

Is he or ain't he a world teacher. I think he is. See, I can say it. -SHP

I asked what you meant by 'he came for the whole planet' and what evidence you have. -G

Everyone, every human being, is invited to receive Knowledge. No one is excluded by him. That is what I meant. -SHP

His pleasure has nothing to do with 'coming' for the whole world. As for business, what did you have in mind, charging premies $5,000 to attend a seminar on the yacht where they have the 'opportunity' to 'examine themselves' in front of 'the speaker'?
-G

All work and no play...you know the rest. As for business, I have no idea of the specifics, but your idea is a good one. You know, there are people in this world who have $5K in their car ashtray for runaround money and don't appreciate anything unless they pay for it. It is easier for a camel to get through the needle's eye than for a rich man to enter the kingdom... No, I don't think Maharaji will charge for the seminars themselves, but he might charge to cover the expenses of the venue. -SHP

In 'Crime and Punishment' Raskolnikov thinks of himself as an
extraordinary man who is beyond the rules. He commits murder in an attempt to illustrate that concept to himself. -G

I think this is a different story with different characters. SHP

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:24:21 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: 'a world teacher'
Message:

it was the tactile indignation that seeped through my screen from your post

Are you on drugs, was that a flasback, or did you take some horror movies too seriously? Was it green and did it glow? Wow, I didn't know I was that powerful.

Is he or ain't he a world teacher. I think he is. See, I can say it.

I really don't think that's what you had in mind. I think you had 'God in human form' in mind but are too embarrassed to say it. But anyway, let's consider your claim that he is a 'world teacher'. I don't see him teaching billions of people, do you?

I asked what you meant by 'he came for the whole planet' and what evidence you have. -G

Everyone, every human being, is invited to receive Knowledge. No one is excluded by him.

First you say 'he came for the whole planet', which has obvious messiah implications, then when challenged on it, you downgrade your claim to 'Everyone ... is invited'. Buy is everyone invited? Absolutely not. Most people have never even heard of him, so they couldn't have been invited. I'm talking about an actual act of invitation, not 'oh, well maybe one day they will be'. Even for those few who have heard of 'Knowledge', not all are invited, there are in fact exclusions. People are excluded for various reasons, one being not seeing Prem Rawat as the 'master of life'. I've also heard of a list of criteria people must meet to 'receive Knowledge', including having an income, being over 18, etc. What if someone is mentally ill, can they 'receive Knowledge'? I doubt it.

All work and no play...you know the rest.

Let's see, if Prem Rawat doesn't get to play, then ...?

As for business, I have no idea of the specifics, but your idea is a good one. You know, there are people in this world who have $5K in their car ashtray for runaround money and don't appreciate anything unless they pay for it. It is easier for a camel to get through the needle's eye than for a rich man to enter the kingdom... No, I don't think Maharaji will charge for the seminars themselves, but he might charge to cover the expenses of the venue.

My 'idea' referred to the rumor (which I believe) that he actually did charge $5,000 for such a seminar. Saying the charge is for 'the venue' (which in this case belongs to him!) makes no difference, it's still an admission fee, just as the 'registration fees', 'seat assignment fees', or whatever they are called are all admission fees. Yet EV claims that their events are free. You're saying that since the premies that he extracted all that money from are (possibly) rich, it's ok, in fact it's good because those (possibly) filthy bastards have too much money, they have such low consciousness that even though they are 'students' of such a supposedly great 'teacher', they don't 'appreciate' him unless they pay him. Sounds kind of kinky. It also implies he's not a good teacher. Oh, and he's actually helping them go to heaven because he's relieving them of their money! That's good, that's really good. Now who's going to relieve Rawat of his money so he can go to heaven?

In 'Crime and Punishment' Raskolnikov thinks of himself as an extraordinary man who is beyond the rules. He commits murder in an attempt to illustrate that concept to himself. -G

I think this is a different story with different characters. SHP

A different story, a different character, but it's the same principle.


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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:40:49 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Your 'world teacher' post was blank. (nt)
Message:
asffj
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 21:06:11 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: check again (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:36:00 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Are you still eating up your supplies from the
Message:
millenium bug? Maharji 'predicted' trouble with that didn't he.....ever noticed how all religions come with a sandwich board saying the end of the world is nigh?
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 00:20:27 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: Are you sure those are lotuses you are grazing on?
Message:
Dear Lotus Eater,

The reference to the future of commercial air travel was specific, pretty exact, and not at all presented in a doomsday mode. He was just talking matter-of-factly back there in Rome in 1977 about how he needed to get around and could not rely on commercial airlines. If you want to blow that up into something else and try to make me look like a wacko, I can't stop ya. Are ya sure those are lotuses you are grazing on?

shp

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 00:57:48 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: commercial air travel
Message:
Commercial air travel is still going strong. He could have relied on commercial flights, he just wanted his OWN jet as an expensive toy. Piloting is an expensive hobby of his. His claimed reason for owning a Gulfstream IV jet (that he needs it for 'propagation') is put in serious doubt by his owning a $7,000,000 luxury megayacht. He also owns a helicopter, a glider, and another plane, plus many luxury automobiles.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 20:04:58 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: G
Subject: ah, but he's said he's going to bring peace
Message:
... to the whole world.

musn't forget all the little fishes too.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 20:18:03 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: 'little yacht', a Dissertation and Interrogatory
Message:
IF you accept him as your teacher without question.

Yeah, right. Even beyond reasonable doubt. Right, shp? Just brush those questions aside. Don't let reason interfere with your devotion.

Has it ever occurred to you that there may be some serious problems with air travel in the near future?

So Maharaji, in his infinite wisdom, bought a yacht.

I have not heard anything from him about air travel problems coming up that would require a seaworthy craft such as the Serenity, but my common sense and feeling the 'weather' tells me it ain't just a toy.

Believe me, Sandy, when it comes to Maharaji, common sense is the last thing you express. But you are full of feeling. I'll give you that. Here's to the day you put them both together.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 20:13:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Yes, if he's a real unicorn ......
Message:
Boy, when you wanted to get a little frisson out of the Jagdeo thing, you were hot to move, weren't you, little shippie? Gurus, enlightenment, shppies little colourful Candyland, with all its magical imaginary figures, all of that was going to take a back seat as shp took a stand!

'What about the little ones?!' was your defiant, independent, FREE-THINKING cry.

So now you say that it doesn't matter how much money the guru's squeezed out of his flock, how much he's secreted away into luxury assets and who know know's what. He can do what the fuck he wants, so long as he's a real unicorn.

So tell me, shp, who are YOU to decide what matters Maharaji's accountalbe for and which one's he's not? If he's a real unicorn, shp, how can you hold him accountable for ANYTHING?

You know that you're fucked here. But you don't admit anything. Everyone in the world can see -- including you -- but you're just another stubborn cult member.

Ha ha ha.

Bring your kids here, shppie. Show them what daddy does on his computer. They'd be disgusted, I'm sure.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:40:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: More on shp's hypocrisy
Message:
In a thread below, shppie says:

I don't look at Maharaji or his actions like I would look anyone else. Times like now bring that reality to the forefront.

Doesn't this fly in the face of shp's supposed 'stand' about Jagdeo? See, I told you all along he was just posturing, playing like a regualr person with their own morlaity and everything. But, alas, it was all bullshit. Times like now bring that reality to the forefront.

And to think of all the help he was going to bring to the 'little ones'. It's a sad day in Boystown tonight. Say it ain't so, Shp. Say it aint' so!

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 15:34:34 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No hypocrisy here
Message:
In a thread below, shppie says:
I don't look at Maharaji or his actions like I would look anyone else. Times like now bring that reality to the forefront.

Doesn't this fly in the face of shp's supposed 'stand' about Jagdeo? See, I told you all along he was just posturing, playing like a regualr person with their own morlaity and everything. But, alas, it was all bullshit. Times like now bring that reality to the forefront. And to think of all the help he was going to bring to the 'little ones'. It's a sad day in Boystown tonight. Say it ain't so, Shp. Say it aint' so! -Jim

To Jim and anyone else following this sordid mess:

I wrote that letter to EV about Jagdeo when it wasn't quite 'in vogue' yet. My wife and I both signed it. We were and still are concerned about this matter. Writing a letter may not seem like alot, but in the context and timing, we took a big step in what I considered to be the right direction in writing to Maharaji directly and then to EV about it. I think it did have an impact that a premie husband and wife with kids wrote about our concern for other premies who were victimized by a mahatma. More letters and voices chimed in after ours was made known. So my letter wasn't the one that broke the case wide open, I did not grandstand like you like to do, but we got involved and took the only appropriate and humanly decent side we could. And I beleive that our letter made a contribution, even if I did not get more involved than I did.

I do not have a double standard about child molestation set up for Maharaji's mahatmas. What I said that you have attempted to twist and distort beyond recognition is how I see Maharaji and his 'stuff' like the yacht, not how I see crimes against children. The 'times like now' was referring to his yacht, if you recall from previous posts. Once again you have failed to discredit me by trying to twist my words. If I am so insignificant, why bother trying and making a fool out of yourself, Jim?

shp

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 01:06:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Oh, sorry, Shp, perhaps I misunderstood
Message:
You have told us that you don't judge a 'master' like other people. In fact, so long as he's really a master, you say, you can't judge anything about how he lives his life.

Am I wrong about any of that yet?

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 18:45:38 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah, Jim, you mix too much of 'you' into it all.
Message:
You have told us that you don't judge a 'master' like other people. In fact, so long as he's really a master, you say, you can't judge anything about how he lives his life.
Am I wrong about any of that yet? -jh

Yes, you are. But I am not going to the trouble of explaining it to someone such as yourself who lives only to tear premies up.
I have learned my lesson with you. Now you will most probably take this direct slap in your arrogant face as a side-step of the question you asked me, and you know what? I don't care! You aren't worth the trouble. I know who I am without your input.
-shp

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 20:36:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Perfect dishonest, cowardly non-answer, shp
Message:
Good one!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 03:02:10 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I could set my clock by your game, Jimbo! (nt)
Message:
yoaresopredictable!
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 15:47:37 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: No hypocrisy here, perhaps brain damage then?
Message:
So my letter wasn't the one that broke the case wide open, I did not grandstand like you like to do, but we got involved and took the only appropriate and humanly decent side we could.

Not quite, Sandy. Other 'decent and appropriate' actions would be for you to denounce Rawrat and his organization, stop giving them money, (donations or purchases) and try to help your friends out of the cult.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:35:55 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: No hypocrisy here, perhaps brain damage then?
Message:
So my letter wasn't the one that broke the case wide open, I did not grandstand like you like to do, but we got involved and took the only appropriate and humanly decent side we could. -shp

Not quite, Sandy. Other 'decent and appropriate' actions would be for you to denounce Rawrat and his organization, stop giving them money, (donations or purchases) and try to help your friends out of the cult. -gerry

gerry,
I do not denounce Maharaji or his organization, I have not given any money or bought anything lately, and I am not helping anyone in or out at this time. We all do what we have the light at any given time to do, me, you, each of us. Judging how much or how little you are doing in your life to make the world a better place is not my place to judge, nor is it your place to judge me. I have answered you in the hope we can continue the conversation without grading each other's performance. What you said about brain damage may be true for all of us to one degree or another just by being on earth at this time. -shp

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:47:26 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Tighten up your reading skills, gerry, please look
Message:
So my letter wasn't the one that broke the case wide open, I did not grandstand like you like to do, but we got involved and took the only appropriate and humanly decent side we could. -shp

Not quite, Sandy. Other 'decent and appropriate' actions would be for you to denounce Rawrat and his organization, stop giving them money, (donations or purchases) and try to help your friends out of the cult. -gerry

gerry:

Upon further examination of the above posts between us, please notice that I said we 'took the only appropriate and humanly decent SIDE we could.' By that I meant that I took issue with how the situation was handled, as opposed to just ignoring it or chalking it up to a lila or something.

You shifted gears and criticized me by changing 'SIDE' to 'ACTIONS' and proceeded to offer what you think would have been more appropriate actions I could have taken but did not. I am not picking nits here, gerry, but merely showing you how some conversations here often go sideways due to the changing of words and meanings. Capice?

shp

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 19:27:19 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: 'little yacht'
Message:
Well aren't you the 'humble' one who doesn't capitalize his initials. Oh yes, and proud me, I have the gall (as do most people) to capitalize my alias. Guess I'll be going to hell.

I was merely setting up the two basic sides to the ongoing debate here, 'is he or ain't he?', and presenting the no-win situation of trying to discuss it with any common agreement. Thought that was obvious and still do. Come on, you knew.

Again I ask: What do you mean by 'he came for the whole planet'? What evidence do you have for whatever you mean by that?
Is he or ain't he what?

Q: And then how does it follow the he 'needs world class transportation for land, sea and air'? What does having a 106' luxury megayacht have to do with 'coming' for the whole planet? What's he going to do, go out into the ocean with it and then teach the world from it by mental telepathy?

A: For business or pleasure or whatever he wants to do with it, it's his to do with it as he pleases, IF you accept him as your teacher without question. Then again, if you are a negative devotee - someone who is negatively devoted to him, otherwise known as an ex-premie - the yacht and all it represents will be used as yet another example to negative figure ground him.

His pleasure has nothing to do with 'coming' for the whole planet. What business did you have in mind, charging premies $5,000 to attend a seminar on the megayacht where they 'examine themselves' in front of 'the speaker'?

I don't accept him as a teacher at all, and I'm not a devotee, so the term 'negative devotee' doesn't apply. This term you made up doesn't even make any sense.

Has it ever occurred to you that there may be some serious problems with air travel in the near future? Either from solar activity and natural or man-made problems on earth in the atmosphere?

That's a very creative answer, he needs the yacht just in case there's problems with air travel. Oh yes, he's going to go on a world tour on his megayacht. He's actually saving money by buying the yacht now, before these supposed problems occur, so he doesn't have to spend more later due to higher demand.

I remember back in 1977 in Rome when Maharaji predicted the problems with commercial air travel that we now face, and presented his need for his own aircraft and educating himself to fly it. It all happened pretty much the way he said it would. I was there and I remember.

There are no such problems, nothing happened. Certainly you're not suggesting that people don't use commercial air travel anymore. Premies use it to go see him, don't they?

I have not heard anything from him about air travel problems coming up that would require a seaworthy craft such as the Serenity,

Of course not, he's keeping it a secret. Also, it's quite a bit more than a 'seaworthy craft', just as his former mansion in Malibu (the one that was replaced by a bigger, better mansion) was more than just a 'delapidated structure'.

but my common sense and feeling the 'weather' tells me it ain't just a toy.

You've got a pretty loose definition of common sense. Let's see, you think, well he's 'the Master' and infallible, so he must have a good reason for buying a $7 million dollar yacht and I'm not going to question it.

This is just something I am feeling and not the reflections of anyone else's thoughts but my own.

I should hope not.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 19:49:54 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: EMPTY POST (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:56:34 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Thanks (nt)
Message:
x
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 19:23:35 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: it's an escape vehicle-international waters
Message:
I see the boat as a way to slip out of U'S jurisdiction in case things get sticky at home and he wants to be able to put himself out of reach of all those hateful reminders. a plane has to refuel or it falls out of the air. but a boat--ahhh-now there's economy for ya. cut the engines and drift until you need to find a port to restock, and then take off again. why, the coastlines and islands are endless. how would they ever be able to nab ya in that vast a field ? he could escape apprehension for a real goodly stretch of time when it got to be the right bunch of circumstances. what a wonderful coup.

of course, no one back on land gets to go, he couldnt care less what happens to his so called dependents, despite the fact he swears them to secrecy and lifetime oblige to tithe their profits to support his extravagances.

hey SHP--here's one for ya: what about a spaceship?? i mean, if he has to have transportation by every means conceivable, then why not a spacecraft as well? wouldnt that be a typical notion for one of his projects? I can see it now: premies being spun VISIONS of how maharaji wants to be the first Master to go up to bless the entire world from in Space. or be the first Master to ever walk on the moon. or go to Mars. Or whatever. Sell sell sell...

go ahead, you chump! go ahead and put your life on the line for that one! you poor shmoe. if only there was a point to it all.

well, next year is 2001; maybe the megalith will arrive and pop us all across the universe and magically slingshot us all into the next dimension, hey? whaddya think?

why, i think i hear the strains of it now!!--yes...yess...there it is...(audio fade in to 'Also Sprach Zarathustra')“bwoooommmmmmmmm-Bwammmmmmmmm-Bommmmmmmm!(BOOM_boom_ BOOM_boom_BOOM_boom_BOOM_boom) Bwammmmmmmmm,Bwowmmmmm, Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!.......

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:45:17 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: 'So what else is there to say?' Try this, SHP:
Message:
If he needs this world-class transport in the face of forthcoming transport/energy crisis, then:

(a) wouldn't a sailing boat (or whole armada of them) be more useful?

(b) why is he secretive about its existence?

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 20:27:38 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: To Nigel
Message:
If he needs this world-class transport in the face of forthcoming transport/energy crisis,
then:
(a) wouldn't a sailing boat (or whole armada of them) be more useful?
(b) why is he secretive about its existence? -Nigel

Beats me. -shp

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:53:04 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: shp
Subject: I'll take that as a shrug, then..?
Message:
Thing is, SHP, you've painted yourself into a corner here - two corners, in fact - by framing the 'little yacht' problem as an either/or situation. (A 'true' Master is entitled while a fake Master is not). The fake Master alternative is unacceptable yet you can't square up to the obvious questions and conclusions arising from your suggested reasons for M's owning the thing.

There is nothing I could raise not yet covered more eloquently and comprehensively by G above. But let's just take one of G's points: the mere facts of the Internet, satellites and 'auto-Knowledge' render your 'real' Master's physical presence unnecessary for the propagation of Knowledge.

Even if M's piloting his weekend pleasure-craft to Osaka or Tuvalu (or maybe up the Danube to Vienna and Budapest) to spread the Word in person were theoretically possible (Hmm, what about Armenia and Tibet?)... - you'd still have to admit the inefficiency of said method would be pretty spectacular. Totally barking, touches of L.R Hubbard, perhaps. (Are you implying that Maharaji is insane, SHP?)

But the fact you need to rationalise the purchase suggests you are very uncomfortable with the obvious, man-in-the-street explantion, namely, that Maharaji is yet another rich cult leader with an insatiable appetite for expensive toys. No matter how much you appreciate the 'gift' of K, you are not really relaxed about the guy's lifestyle and profligate spending on unnecessary luxuries. (And M knows premies would be uncomfortable, hence the secrecy.)

So you try to make the unnecessary appear necessary - with the above comical results.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 19:43:40 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: A no-malice shrug, with the opinion that this may
Message:
be something so very different than what you presently think.
That is all. I am not the answer-man.
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:55:56 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: SHP
Subject: He didn't 'educate himself' to fly aircrafts...
Message:
Shp,

He didn't start training, as far as I know (anyone?) until the 707 project was underway. I remember when he started his training in Miami.

Maybe he took private small craft lessons before he moved to Miami for that project, but you can't become certified without very expensive training, as well as recertification classes!

It's all been cost free for him, maybe, but at that point in time, at least, the premies foot the bill.

Cynthia

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