Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Oct 31, 2000 at 14:38:15 (GMT)
From: Oct 21, 2000 To: Oct 29, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Eric -:- I can't resist! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:53:38 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Words are cheap -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 15:20:51 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Oh yes, Rajneesh was real crediable -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:36:09 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- You're tired because all you're doing is resisting -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 00:37:39 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Neither can I -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:04:50 (GMT)
__ __ Eric -:- Wind Up -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 23:58:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- A sense of humour. -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 15:26:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Wind Up -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 07:16:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Wind Up -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 01:03:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Eric, read Bin Liners above post -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 15:27:18 (GMT)

Steven The Music Lover -:- I Like This Song -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:09:35 (GMT)
__ Steven Quint -:- Where's Jimmy The Greek When We Need Him? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:01:04 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- The Winning Number Is Ten -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 21:22:30 (GMT)

Eric -:- Self-Importance -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:55:14 (GMT)
__ And On Anand Ji -:- URL for debunking Castaneda, Naguals -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:58:16 (GMT)
__ __ And On Anand Ji -:- URL for debunking Castaneda, Naguals -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:10:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- URL for debunking Castaneda, Naguals -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:32:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Tensegrity -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 08:29:49 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- Self-Importance -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:43:01 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Self-Impotence -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:16:10 (GMT)
__ __ Eric -:- Words -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:53:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Coach -:- Hey, Doris -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 23:57:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Erica -:- You've Got Me! -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 00:20:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Erica -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 07:28:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ carol -:- Good Post, Hal! nt -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:57:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Thanks carol- nice to see you posting nt -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:17:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Then you're a bigger asshole that I thought. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 21:14:51 (GMT)
__ Blackberry -:- Self-Importance -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 19:15:41 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Absolutely right Blackberry ! nt -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 08:50:15 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- I don't get it Eric -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:15:21 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Repellent, obnoxious, just plain wrong... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:55:20 (GMT)
__ shp -:- Self-Importance -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:42:55 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Deuteronomy -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:39:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- reply to Scott T. -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 15:25:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- reply to Scott T. -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:46:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- reply to Scott T. -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 20:38:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- just let go -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:21:26 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Yeah i like the quote Eric.. nt -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 12:50:07 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Self-Importance could also be the opposite, -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:47:05 (GMT)
__ __ Loaf -:- Its Eric the half a Bee (good point Ham) nt -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 12:13:18 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Casteneda was a fraud. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:28:39 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Casteneda was a fraud? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:36:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Casteneda was a fraud? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:59:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Casteneda was a fraud? -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:40:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, I chose the cover for that book! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 19:19:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The book and it's cover. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 19:55:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The book and it's cover. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:12:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Hey, I chose the cover for that book! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 19:30:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I'm impressed! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:06:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- I'm impressed! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:12:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- To Nigel and Chris -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 23:55:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- I believed in Lobsang rampa too..! -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 15:49:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Apparently there were TWO Castanedas! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:17:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- He invented the internet! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:33:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- He invented the internet! -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:08:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Spiderwebs? Saw them all over the lawn today! nt -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:59:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- He invented the internet! -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 08:56:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- I've got a POWER Walk story ot -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 18:44:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- 'invented the internet' -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 00:20:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Gore'invented the internet'was shown on Bush tv ad -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 18:53:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq, or Foghorn Leghorn? -:- odd. Just last night a 'Panorama' special on UK -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:49:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- the quote -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:20:03 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Casteneda was a fraud. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 12:53:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Yeah, it's true, Hal.. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 13:19:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bobby -:- Yeah, it's true, Hal.. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 13:51:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Easy mistake to make, I guess...! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 14:05:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Easy mistake to make, I guess...! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 14:19:16 (GMT)
__ __ Eric -:- Jesus! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:22:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Life's a bitch sometimes, ain't it? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 13:17:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Actions speak louder... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 12:55:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Eric -:- Reflections -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:34:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Judging books and covers.. -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 06:18:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Well I read two of the trilogy... -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:34:29 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- Sharing pictures and sounds -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:05:13 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Sharing pictures and sounds -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 14:36:57 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Sharing pictures and sounds -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:24:55 (GMT)
__ Steven Quint -:- Some Personal Information -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:14:09 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Some Personal Information -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 12:16:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ And On Anand Ji -:- Katie please read (was:Some Personal Information) -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:57:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Here's the URL - paging Sir David!!! -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:15:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Here's the URL - paging Sir David!!! -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:25:27 (GMT)

Salam -:- Stevin Quint -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:00:14 (GMT)
__ Cynthia to Salam -:- Stevin Quint -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:11:22 (GMT)

La-ex -:- A few questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:33:43 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- A few questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:30:03 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- The 'Little Princes.' -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:40:36 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Great analysis Michael - Thanks. (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 18:37:58 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Maharaji's Drinking Problem -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 18:09:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Look who's talking about a drinking problem! -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:44:51 (GMT)
__ __ The Eye of the storm -:- A few questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:59:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- That's ridiculous -- MANY 'reversals' -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 14:38:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ground Zero -:- That's ridiculous -- Nil 'reversals' -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 08:23:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- There are none so blind as will not see.. -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:27:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ A Pamela -:- There are none so blind as will not see..Ditto!(nt -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 02:13:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- 1873? Man, you ARE an old timer!! nt -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:20:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Yes, going on 150, I'm getting up there :) (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:57:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- But you look Marvelous!! :) (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:54:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- great post Joe (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 14:47:55 (GMT)
__ carol -:- The entrance to his website would scare many away! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:41:54 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- A few questions for Michael Dettmers -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:16:37 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- God actually MADE the Net to denouce such frauds! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:57:12 (GMT)

Carol -:- OT: on voting and our 'power' to change things -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:41:01 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- OT: on voting and our 'power' to change things -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:00:43 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- agreed about voting -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:05:29 (GMT)

Bikerji -:- [Go away Bikerji/Newboy - FA edited] -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:19:03 (GMT)

Jim -:- Why don't any of OUR premies sound like this? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:32:08 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- Has M ever said the word, 'Compassion'? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 04:42:53 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- I never heard him, that's for sure. -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:42:54 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Spliced thoughts for Mel -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:53:13 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- I think it must be me ... -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:06:39 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- John, I wouldn't really take that personally -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:57:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Darnit Jim! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:01:49 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Hey, Mili! -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:06:27 (GMT)

Steven Quint -:- This place is driving me crazy -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:31:24 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- The price of sanity -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:27:19 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Don't confuse exes with Americans -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:33:53 (GMT)
__ edited -:- [edited] -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:20:40 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Is you being driven crazy -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:48:17 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Now why would you say that? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:34:00 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- I can't believe EV sent you this!!! -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:13:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Ignore the above post (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:29:33 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- Now why would you say that? -:- Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:11:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet of venice -:- here ya go steve-best i can do fer now: -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:16:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- damn! the link was to yahoo maps!!! grrrr -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:36:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- You the cowardly lion??? HUH???? -:- Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:40:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- damn! the link was to yahoo maps!!! grrrr -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:01:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- here ya go steve-best i can do fer now: -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:13:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- you sure you wanna run up the bills??? -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:27:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- here ya go steve-best i can do fer now: -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:17:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- So would I, Steven -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:00:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- So would I, Steven -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 04:41:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Okay, today you're fine -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:23:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Now that could be a problem..nt -:- Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 13:56:22 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:53:38 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I can't resist!
Message:
Here's another one ....

'There is only one courage and that is the courage to go on dying to the past, not to collect it, not to accumulate it, not to cling to it.

We all cling to the past, and because we cling to the past we become unavailable to the present'

Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh

Now he was a fraud too, right?

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 15:20:51 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Words are cheap
Message:
Hi Eric,

Anybody can spout words of wisdom. (Didn't you go to satsang?)

It's living up to them that's the problem.

Shri Anth-Ji (Words of Wisdom, special this week, only 50c each)

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:36:09 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Oh yes, Rajneesh was real crediable
Message:
He was even a smaller operator than M besides he got deported and died of AIDS.

His bullshit wasn't nearly as effective as M's. But I admit his teachings had the same flavor.

Can I ask a personal question Eric? How old are you?

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 00:37:39 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: You're tired because all you're doing is resisting
Message:
Eric:

Assuming there is some wisdom in the statement, which is a rather significant assumption, then why quote Rajeesh as some sort of authority? I mean, you know he's a fraud so what difference does it make what he says? It's like quoting a random word generator.

Personally, it sounds like something Richard Alpert would say, and most of what he said was worse than crap.

--Scott 'Be where when?' T.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:04:50 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Neither can I
Message:
'Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it.'
Or something like that.

Anyway, yours is another stupid quote from a fraud. In fact, a murderous fraud. But that doesn't seem to matter to you, as long as you get a hit of that special 'inner experience.'

'There is only one courage

Oh really, only one, huh? god that's shallow.

and that is the courage to go on dying to the past, not to collect it, not to accumulate it, not to cling to it.

Of course a cult leader would like his dupes to forget the past, forget their origins, forget their family ties. Yes forget the past, don't cling to it, but cling instead to the words of the cult leader. And of course surrender your all, especially your wallet.

We all cling to the past, and because we cling to the past we become unavailable to the present'

This is just plain stupid. And you are just a fucking head wonk wind up and time waster...

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 23:58:02 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Wind Up
Message:
Yup, gerry, you are absolutely right I am a wind up and a wanker. I am. I purposely selected that quote because of the reaction to the last one I posted. It's called having an ironic sense of humor, but that's something Americans have a hard time getting their heads around. Irony .... humor ....

We're all frauds, Ger, to some extent or another. I mean, I'm not even a guy !!!! And my name isn't Eric but it sure all got you going there for a while didn't it?

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 15:26:06 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: A sense of humour.
Message:
Eric,

having a sense of humour, ironic or not, involves saying, or writing, or doing something funny.

You could try putting on a funny hat and falling over. It works with the Scandinavians.

Anth the sore arse

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 07:16:02 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Wind Up
Message:
Criticizing the sense of humor of your audience won't make them laugh. According to L. Ron Hubbard an airport is 'a large area of land surrounded by high tension wires.' Now there's a fraud with a sense of humor!
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 01:03:57 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Wind Up
Message:

I hope you're not trying to tell us you're a woman.

On the other hand I hope you are.

The only other creature I can think you might be is a donkey.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 15:27:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Eric, read Bin Liners above post
Message:
for an example of something funny.

Ha ha hanth

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:09:35 (GMT)
From: Steven The Music Lover
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: I Like This Song
Message:
Wannabe
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:01:04 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint
To: Everyone
Subject: Where's Jimmy The Greek When We Need Him?
Message:
I'm going to the satellite feed today. Any bets how long I'll last.

I lived in Tokyo, where the feed and the weed are today, for two years in the seventies.

Please pray with me for the safety and sanity of our brothers and sisters in Japan today.

Anybody else curious enough to go to their local feed?

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 21:22:30 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The Winning Number Is Ten
Message:
I lasted ten minutes and felt like shit afterwards.

I have sworn never to go back.

I don't remember anything nor do I want to as far as what he said. He seemed to be in hight spirits and hight voice and talked about the regular crap. Just cut and paste at random from every talk he's given over the last five years and you'll get the idea.

I wanted to see him resign on screen. If and when that happens I'll watch it on the six o'clock news.

All The Best,
Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:55:14 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Self-Importance
Message:
A quote from Castaneda .... which might be helpful .....

'Self-importance is man's greatest enemy. What weakens him is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of his fellow man.

Self-importance requires that one spend most of one's life offended by something or someone.'

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:58:16 (GMT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Eric
Subject: URL for debunking Castaneda, Naguals
Message:
http://www.sustainedaction.org/

He was a big-time fraud.

Spend some time reading the above site - it gives a false appearance of being other than a vendetta site against Carlos Casteneda. It's pretty cool. :)

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:10:10 (GMT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: ne1
Subject: URL for debunking Castaneda, Naguals
Message:
Carlos died of cancer, I think, just a few years ago. Maybe 1998? Apparently, Carol (the Nagual Woman), La Gorda, and several others were real people caught up in Carlos' trip. He really was Maharaji's contemporary and equal, in so many ways (read: equally flim-flammic).

Just go to http://www.nagual.net/ to see the fallout (their cult's equiv to our cult's enjoyinglife.org or whateverTheFuckitscalled.org).

Sustained Action Org picks:

http://www.sustainedaction.org/Chronologies/ChronologiesTop.htm

http://www.sustainedaction.org/Chronologies/Castaneda_early_years.htm

http://www.sustainedaction.org/Chronologies/carlos_meets_don_juan.htm

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:32:17 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Tensegrity Scholars
Subject: URL for debunking Castaneda, Naguals
Message:
from

http://www.sustainedaction.org/intro.htm...

---quote---

...the unlikelihood that Castaneda's purported teacher, a relatively unschooled Yaqui shaman, would be conversant with sophisticated philosophies that sound remarkably similar to those of Nietzsche and Gurdjieff, among others; and basic internal inconsistencies in dates and events among the books). [See A Bibliography of Castaneda Criticism.]

Such criticism became so vociferous by the late seventies and early eighties, and Castaneda so steadfastly avoided responding to his various critics, that the climate was ripe for what was to become a pervasive myth about Castaneda: that he himself had recanted the extraordinary tale described in the books.

In fact, Castaneda never admitted during his lifetime that the books were anything but his best attempt to describe his training by don Juan and his party to learn to perceive other worlds and 'energy, as it flows in the universe.'

Nonetheless, following Castaneda's death in Los Angeles on or about April 27, 1998, and especially since that death was officially announced on June 19, 1998 (as the result of calls to the press from Castaneda's putative 'adopted' son, sometimes known as Carlton Jeremy Castaneda, after he received notice of the probating of Castaneda's estate), disclosures have surfaced that have begun to cast greater doubt than ever on many of the tales Castaneda told in his books and the true origin of the techniques and philosophy that he taught.

---end quote---

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 08:29:49 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Tensegrity
Message:
AOAJi:

Interesting. Tensegrity is a constuction technique related to geodesics discovered by one of R. Buckminster Fuller's students at Black Mountain College, for which Fuller took credit (according to a recent PBS documentary). I'm pretty sure the concept was under patent, but perhaps not the word itself. Incredible they'd just rip off the word and apply it to something completely unrelated to geodesics. A little of this... a little of that... makes a witches brew.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:43:01 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Self-Importance
Message:
'Self-importance is man's greatest enemy. What weakens him is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of his fellow man.

Self-importance requires that one spend most of one's life offended by something or someone.'

'Self-importance is man's greatest enemy' is obvious nonsense; did Castaneda never hear of smallpox; or Botulinum toxin. And if we're talking matters of the spirit here, rather than the flesh, heh, I'll stick with the Good Book's the love of money is the root of all evil. Hey, we can dig that, right?

Casteneda's purported greatest enemy of our species seems to work its awful spell via our feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of his fellow man.

Righteous indignation is enfeebling, is it? No, I don't think that's the case at all. JC and the moneylenders, anyone?

And is it not prurience that demands one spend most of one's life offended by something or someone? Perhaps there's a better word, but 'self-importance' does not fit the bill at all. A sufficiently self-important type might well not give a hoot for anyone or anything.

How can people use words and not know what they are saying? How can we hear words and not realise what is being said? How can empty words appear to have content?

I've had it with words.

Back later.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:16:10 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Self-Impotence
Message:
Eric:

There just isn't very much to comment on in the statement. Exaggerated self importance is probably a bad thing, but the root of all evil? Sounds like 'vanity of vanities' in the old testament, which is a bit over the top. Surely there must be some appropriate sense of one's importance, so wouldn't the distinction involve what constitutes 'appropriate?' And what are Castaneda's qualifications to talk about such a normative distinction? So we have a rather vague and useless statement from someone with no credentials. What's left to discuss, besides the rather provocative irony of the whole thing? Here's a guy with no morals advising the rest of us about morality (for us, not him). Ironic isn't it?

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:53:29 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: ScottT / JohnT
Subject: Words
Message:
I was just being provocative. It is all just words and I have to agree with JohnT .... words, words, words.

It wasn't even meant to be about Carlos, I was throwing another log on the fire.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 23:57:47 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Hey, Doris
Message:
'I was just being provocative. It is all just words and I have to agree with JohnT .... words, words, words.'

It wasn't even meant to be about Carlos, I was throwing another log on the fire.'

Yeah, well words is what we use to communicate with, not logs. You seem pretty handy at using those of others. We've had the Buddha and Casteneda. What's next in this little literary lesson of yours. The fuckin' Pope. How about coming out from behind the sayings of others and telling us what YOU feel about things. Like what do YOU feel about Maharaji? About about 'HIS' knowledge? About the fact that his billionaire lifestyle has been SOLEY created and is financed by the cash and labors of others. Like about how the vast majority of people who received knowledge don't want anything to do with it? It he God on booze. Or just a another humble medition millionare. Enlighten us, Mr Provocateur. What's your point of view?

Stuff like that. It's what the forum's for, you know. Don't be shy now. I know you're not used to talkin' about these sort of things. It's OK. No-one will know.

If not, let's have another meaningless log. Gotta keep the fire burnin'

Coach


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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 00:20:27 (GMT)
From: Erica
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: You've Got Me!
Message:
Oh god, I'm sorry, I'm just laughing so much.

Yup, you've got me there Coach. No more Eric. I'll be straight up. Look, you've built a powerful case. You guys have exhausted me!

For the most part I have been completely honest. I can relate to all the things discussed .. I can .... I can understand why you have all gotten so upset .... but it hasn't upset me. It just hasn't.

It doesn't matter how many times you go round the mulberry bush with it, there is one indisputible fact for me ... when I sit down and do those techniques ... when I practice K ... it makes a difference. Now I can't convince anyone about that, nor do I want to. We just have to agree that we disagree, that's all.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 07:28:14 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: Erica
Message:
Hi,

The main point of discussion here is not whether the techniques work or not. They work for a lot of people and some say they got or get not much besides a headache.

These techniques are a sort of fast food, designed for export, version of traditional yoga techniques. I've tried a few different variations on them and they all work for me. If I sit down now and do them I can easily have an experience.

I rejected Maha as a teacher - they still work. Point is you don't need to be a robot of the Mahahaha. There is much more to life than escaping into mindlessness. In fact I've found much pleasure in ' mindfullness '. Other paths I've explored have much to teach psychologically. For me Maha is an Indian business man who made a fast buck - not an authentic teacher of inner discovery. He tends to dismiss too many aspects of life and he's also naieve and poorly read.

I've felt much more me since breaking free and my learning about body, mind and Self is blossoming.

Don't feel that by saying bye to Maha you leave the path of self realisation. That's the implication he's always given and it's a lie. In fact every person is on the path . The path of learning about life is inescapable.

One of the problems with Maha is that he promotes separation and egotism amongst premies. You know that special feeling of being one of the elite who are able to recognise the Truth when they see it. Take a look at the premies live's outside of the smiley event times and you'll often find a bunch of unfulfilled, fucked up , delluded ' nebuchs'.

Hope you try breaking free sometime,

Respectfully
Hal (over two decades with M )

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:57:29 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Good Post, Hal! nt
Message:
huzzah
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:17:30 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Thanks carol- nice to see you posting nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 21:14:51 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Then you're a bigger asshole that I thought.
Message:
and quite possibly intellectually dishonest. No, make that definitely dishonest.

I was just being provocative. It is all just words and I have to agree with JohnT .... words, words, words.
It wasn't even meant to be about Carlos, I was throwing another log on the fire.

You throw out words from someone you obviously admire who is unmasked as a fraud and a twit then you back pedal seriously with the above dubious statement.

If you were indeed 'throwing another log on the fire' then you are exactly as I suspected: a wanker and a time waster.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 19:15:41 (GMT)
From: Blackberry
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Self-Importance
Message:
and the maharaji is he not filled with selfimportance? Bejeweled crown, throne. limousines, mansions, servants, mistresses, the ultimate in selfimportance.
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 08:50:15 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Blackberry
Subject: Absolutely right Blackberry ! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:15:21 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: I don't get it Eric
Message:
Does this mean that being offended by a thief or a rapist is suffering from self-importance? There are lots of things that offend most people, this doesn't make everyone automatically self important.

And wasn't this Castenada guy an assistant manager in a Real Estate office in suburban California somewhere? Another 'Lobsang Rampa?'

Anth the self important cynic

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:55:20 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Repellent, obnoxious, just plain wrong...
Message:
This part anyway:

What weakens him is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of his fellow man.

I'm not surprised Eric is immpressed with this; he seems quite shallow and callous to me, especially when he places the blame for the ashram debacle on the backs of the misled premies instead of on the weak, sloping shoulders of the 'Perfect Miser.' (thanks, Steven!)

Anyway, back to this quote: JUST LOOK AT WHAT IT SAYS!!!

Can anyone agree with this? Do I need to spell out how abhorrent this idea is? I mean this: certainly we should be offended by peoples' misdeeds. Otherwise scumbags like Maharaji are left unaccountable for the misery they have spread. But I guess that's the point, right Eric?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:42:55 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Self-Importance
Message:
Eric,
Thank you for the reminder.
Definitely lightens the load.
shp
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:39:16 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Deuteronomy
Message:
Good grief, you mean this was some sort of rule of living that you forgot? If you're not important, who is? Whenever you feel important what do you do; start looking around for a pathological liar to elevate to the throne? Aren't you offended by anything? Oh, I forgot... of course not.

--Scott 'self important by virtue of being offended by lies and deception in the name of virtue' T.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 15:25:11 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: reply to Scott T.
Message:
No, Scott, I don't believe in being a doormat.
I do believe in setting my internal 'Richter scale' so it doesn't go off every time a leaf falls, ya know? Gotta pick your battles in this life. I am important enough to myself in this life to not get stressed out over every little thing. Does this clarify
what I said for you?
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:46:21 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: reply to Scott T.
Message:
SHP:

I shouldn't really need to say this, but if the moral double standard, the implausible claim to divine status, renegging on objectives and promises, and the failure to deal with high ranking pedophiles doesn't offend your standards then they are impossibly low. I'm really serious here. On the Richter scale these are a 6 or 7, just shy of murder or child molestation. How could anyone regard your judgment as anything more than a rubber stamp? Yeah, I'll bet believing that you've no right to judge 'lightens your burden' alot!

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 20:38:03 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: reply to Scott T.
Message:
SHP:
I shouldn't really need to say this, but if the moral double standard, the implausible claim to divine status, renegging on objectives and promises, and the failure to deal with high ranking pedophiles doesn't offend your standards then they are impossibly low. I'm really serious here. On the Richter scale these are a 6 or 7, just shy of murder or child molestation. How could anyone regard your judgment as anything more than a rubber stamp? Yeah, I'll bet believing that you've no right to judge 'lightens your burden' alot! --Scott

Scott:
I am sorry you feel that way. I don't look at Maharaji or his actions like I would look anyone else. Times like now bring that reality to the forefront.
shp

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:21:26 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: just let go
Message:
SHP:

I am sorry you feel that way. I don't look at Maharaji or his actions like I would look anyone else. Times like now bring that reality to the forefront.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I should think that if you were going to be more rigorous with anyone it would be with a so-called spiritual leader. You must be feeling a really monumental burden lately. I might suggest another way to lighten the load.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 12:50:07 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Yeah i like the quote Eric.. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 11:47:05 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Self-Importance could also be the opposite,
Message:
someone who is unoffended by anything, because they're only interested in their inner feelings and experiences and nothing else matters.

Make some effort eric, by the way are you any relation to flat eric?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 12:13:18 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Its Eric the half a Bee (good point Ham) nt
Message:
Arse !!
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:28:39 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Eric
Subject: Casteneda was a fraud.
Message:
Don Juan didn't even exist. Castenada dreamed up that best-selling crap in his university library - got his doctorate in Anthropology under false pretences.

I don't know about self-importance, Eric, but Carlos's importance seems grossly inflated to me.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:36:49 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Casteneda was a fraud?
Message:
Hi Nigel,

I'd be curious about your source. I haven't read that much Castaneda, but I don't think that all of it is made up. When I was in Lima, I learned that Casteneda is from Lima, and although I can't remember the details (it was over 15 years ago), I do remember that the guy who mentioned him did not suggest that what he wrote was an entire crock. I had a very unusual experience while I was there that involved some kind of malicious and manipulative 'magic', and I still can't quite believe what happened. Fortunately, that person did not get what she wanted, because I didn't have it to give in the first place (money). The result is that I cannot so easily dismiss some of these 'powers'.

Anna

BTW, are you still researching that book, Nigel? I left a post for you at AG, and if you're interested I have another.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:59:01 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Casteneda was a fraud?
Message:
Hi Stonor, the piece I read came from 'Carlos Casteneda, Academic Opportunism And The Psychedelic Sixties' by Jay Courtney Fikes (1993)

'Describes how Carlos Casteneda passed off his New Age fictions as anthropology, putting the events in the context of the religious disillusionment and psychedelic exploration which spilled out into popular culture in the 1960's. Fikes debunks the Castaneda myth, exposing a very disturbing episode which can harm the credibility of academic anthropology as a discipline. The result is not just a valuable book for critics of the New Age, but also an interesting cautionary tale about academia. '

(Yes, I am still collecting book materials. Thanks)

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:40:18 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Casteneda was a fraud?
Message:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0969696000/sustainedaction/102-1247176-6186524

$19.95

http://www.sustainedaction.org/bookstore/Bookstore_page_2.htm Sustained Action Bookstore

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 19:19:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Hey, I chose the cover for that book!
Message:
My friend here in Victoria publsihed it and I talked him and Fykes into changing the cover at the last minute. They were going with this picture of a Huichol Indian for some stupid reason when they had this one, cool drawing of Carlos, richly symbolic in that he'd grabbed the sketch from the artist (he was a real privacy freak) and erased half of it before the artist got it back again. Something like that.

So I got them to use that picture.

Unfortunately, the book sucks as far as books go. Really poorly written and doesn't go anywhere near far enough telling the whole story. Great title though, huh? 'Carlos Castenada: Academic Opportunism and the Psychedelic Sixties'

Carlos was a complete fraud. There is absolutely no question about it. Like none. But that was no secret for anyone who knew him. I remember a piece in the L.A. Weekly in the eighties which described what he was like as a grad student at UCLA. What was he like? He was a renowned pathological liar, that's how.

So Fykes explains just some of the ways that it's painfully apparent to anyone knowledgeable about Huichol ways that Carols just ripped shit off like crazy for his imaginary Yaqui Yoda.

After this book, my friend published Castenada's estranged wife's memoires. Then she turned around and sued my friend which turned into a big mess. But not anything to do with content. (Actually, that book's not so good either! Oh well.)

But Dave told me about this one incident where he took her son, Carlos' kid who he'd abandonded with his mother when the kid was a baby, to see him. Dave was in L.A. and he took the boy, now in his late twenties, to one fo these few, semi-stealth talks Carlos gave in a Santa Monica new age bookstore. After the talk, the boy went up to talk to Carlos outside. Carlos acknolwdged him, very woodenly. He didn't have much of anything to say. Then Carlos' handlers -- oh didn't you know? Carlos surrounded himself with this small bevy of women who basically ran his life, at least in those last years, and who grabbed the lion's share of the amazing estate after his death, beating, amongst others, the same son who unsuccsessfully challenged the will -- pushed the kid away, Carlos got in the van and they all split.

Carlos never returned any of his son's calls afterward or saw or spoke to him again.

Those books sure lead one hell of a lot of people on one wild-crow chase.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 19:55:57 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The book and it's cover.
Message:
Jim:

I think there was a small kid at the house I visited in Oxnard. A youngster came to the door with the housekeeper (or whoever she was), and there was a tricycle and other kid type items in the yard. I thought at the time that it looked awfully domestic for a 'sorcerer.' The woman could have been his wife, for all I know, although she didn't look young and pretty.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 20:12:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The book and it's cover.
Message:
The wife, Maria, I think, got left behind back when Carlos was a grad student, I think. Or maybe shortly after. Don't know.
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 19:30:59 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, I chose the cover for that book!
Message:
Jim:

I was there...it was in the Phoenix Bookstore at 5th and Santa Monica Blvd. I used to date the owner of the bookstore, and man oh man, what stories I could tell. Castaneda was known to trawl these speaking events for women and was quite successful at it. Somebody should do a study on starfucking, I tell you, and it's not limited to women either. I think Michael Ventura did the L.A. Weekly piece.

I study writing with a woman now who used to know Castaneda personally, and although she acknowledges his fraudulence, she's a fan of exposing spiritual betrayal and says Castaneda was a good example in that regard.

Small world.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:06:40 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I'm impressed!
Message:
So fast! Did you have it on your coffee table, or is it available on the web somewhere? Thanks for that one, I'll try to look it up over the winter. Of course, the problem with 'academia' that Fikes mentions cuts both ways ;-)

I'll post that other bit of 'research' I mentioned now.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:12:25 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Stonor
Subject: I'm impressed!
Message:
No, I don't own the book - I got that quote from a quick web-search...
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 23:55:19 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: To Nigel and Chris
Message:
Well thank you you both for the info, and it doesn't surprise me at all. Sounds like Casteneda, one of them or both, wove an interesting fiction around stories they've heard, and there are plenty down there. I found it surprising, Nigel, that you 'believed' that there was a Don Juan. (although I think it might be related to the context of this thread ;-) I read the first book, and, like Lobsang Rampa's stuff, took it with a grain of salt. If there were any shreds of 'truth' in it, it wasn't 'truth' that interested me much.
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 15:49:33 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I believed in Lobsang rampa too..!
Message:
I read 'The Third Eye' when I was about twelve years old. Why would I imagine Lobsang Rampa was really just a plumber called Bob from Bristol, or wherever?

Also, if all these scientific Anthrolopogy profs from the University of California can read Don Juan as a piece of genuine field research, then how much more likely is it that a hippie-oriented cult-member-to-be like me will swallow the whole thing without blinking..?

Actually, even if the Castaneda books did carry some philosophical insights, or whatever - as some here seem to think - there's no getting around the fact that CC's aim was deceive, and to acquire personal status through that deception. Perhaps most telling is the fact that his former fellow-students remembered him as a 'pathological liar'...


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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:17:09 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel, Stonor et al.
Subject: Apparently there were TWO Castanedas!
Message:
From http://www.discovery.org/lewis/carlos.html:

quote:
In 1976 Richard de Mille completed some masterful sleuthing and published Castaneda's Journey. He kept digging, and in 1980 he published The Don Juan Papers. Among many other things, he reveals that UCLA's Professor Goldschmidt was Castaneda's Department Chairman and the ranking anthropologist on the editorial committee of University of California Press.

His foreword to Castaneda's first book is the reason it was taken seriously. At the end of 1978, in the face of overwhelming evidence of fraud, Goldschmidt said 'We possess no information whatever that would support the charges that have been made.... I am not going to say mea culpa.' The members of Castaneda's committee refused to give an inch.


De Mille suspects that a small group of dissident culturologists at UCLA arranged for publication of Castaneda's first book as an inside joke and an affront to their opponents. Because of the way it was promoted and its appeal to the youth and drug culture, the book caught on beyond their wildest hopes or fears, turning their picaresque graduate student into a celebrity scholar.'

'The mortal yearning for Paradise is very strong indeed, and anyone who promises to lead us there is trusted. For the born-again the promised land is Beulah, for Marxists a classless society, for futurists like Timothy Leary a homey mechanical doughnut in the sky. For a handful of professors and thousands of pseudo-anthropology fans, Paradise is a balmy purple desert where one can have endless private metaphysical conversations with a mystical old Indian named Don Juan.' Richard de Mille

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:33:21 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: He invented the internet!
Message:
anyone remember the part about an interconnecting web of lines all over the world?
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:08:04 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: He invented the internet!
Message:
Yep but the wierd thing is I saw those lines once (1976) in a field in the hills in the North Pennines, England. I have no explanation for this!
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:59:31 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Spiderwebs? Saw them all over the lawn today! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 08:56:01 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: He invented the internet!
Message:
That was funny Carol. Yes I remember those interconnecting lines in the book. I even tried walking the countryside and up hills in some silly posture, trying to connect with them.

Cheers hal

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 18:44:38 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: I've got a POWER Walk story ot
Message:
In 1973, with one year of knowledge under my belt; I moved to a beautiful country home of another premie. It had at least 30 acres, I think and a long river frontage on one of the most splendid Oregon Rivers: the Clackamas. The large community (except unfortunately the ashram people who seldom if ever were allowed to go) had several summer swimming adventures there (sometimes nude!); but I diverged.

When I moved to share a house with this premie sister, for some reason I had to come at night after dark. Really dark: can't see your hand in front of your face dark! There was an outer gate and a very long, rough gravel driveway in. There were huge Douglas fir trees and other trees on either side. I had no choice but to walk in to get to the house.

I discovered that if I looked up at the sky, I could barely discern a lighter area between the trees. So remembering and following the directions of the Power Walk, on rough ground, unable to see the ground, I sort of ran with knees high and flexible and body low, while staring at the dim path of the lighter sky. It worked in that I didn't fall in ruts or trip and got my destination.

It also felt incredible overcoming the obstacle and acting fearlessly! I applaud Casteneda for allowing me to think to even try that!

I lived there only a few months until after Houston '73 when I moved closer to town (and service and satsang)to be a housemother in a few premie houses.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 00:20:56 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: 'invented the internet'
Message:
To switch the subject, I just read part of an interview with Al Gore. Some people claim that he claimed that he invented the internet. It turns out that he never did claim that. What he did say was that he promoted the idea of the 'information superhighway' (having high data transfer capacity) in congress. In fact, he did promote that idea early on.
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 18:53:26 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Gore'invented the internet'was shown on Bush tv ad
Message:
They obviously cut the clip and were using it to deride Gore's credibility!
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:49:39 (GMT)
From: cq, or Foghorn Leghorn?
Email: None
To: G
Subject: odd. Just last night a 'Panorama' special on UK
Message:
... ah say - just last night a 'Panorama' special on UK showed ol' Al Gore saying that he did indeed 'invent' (wasn't that the word he used?) the internet.

Well, he still seems a better choice than Bush (who'd probably like to see the net get 'subliminable' (sic) - either that or put it in the electric chair)

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:20:03 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: cq, or Foghorn Leghorn?
Subject: the quote
Message:
The actual quote was

'During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet.'

Ok, 'creating the Internet' was a poor choice of words, 'promoting the Internet backbone' would have been better, because that is what he meant. But he obviously wasn't claiming that he invented the internet. Is the guy not allowed to make any mistakes in his wording? I think the exaggeration has been exaggerated.

The funny thing is that when Bush mangles words, it's attributed to his stupidity or 'dyxlexia', whereas with Gore, people assume that because he's smart, he must by lying. Maybe he just got the wording mixed up. Compare that to Bush's intentionally misleading statement that 'Texas' spends 4.7 billion a year on health care, not mentioning that most of that came from private and local sources.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 12:53:32 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Casteneda was a fraud.
Message:
Is that definitely true Nigel? Wow ! What a great imagination he had . I found some of that stuff inspiring. I thought Don Juan was very reasonable in not invoicing Carlos for all that time spent with him.

Was it all a fake ? Did Carlos admit that ?

Hal

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 13:19:32 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Hal
Subject: Yeah, it's true, Hal..
Message:
I read that Castenada eventually admitted Don Juan was fictional after being presented with all sorts of factual errors in his descriptions of Yacqui culture, and evidence that he couldn't have been where he said he was, when he was. But he said the shamanic content was nevertheless based on authentic Indian ('native South American'?) folklore - or some such partial justification.

I think Jim knows a lot more about the guy - had some real life contact or something... Jim?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 13:51:13 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yeah, it's true, Hal..
Message:
hahaha!

No that was me Nigel.

I think what you're remembering is a rather intense online argument I had online with Jim a few years ago. My conflicts with Jim are nothing new, it's been years already. The references might be in the archives but maybe they were deleted out.

I met Carlos back in the early 70's one night in Long Island. I think 1973, pre-Millenium. Satsang was being given at Stoneybrook. Concurrently a small program was going on with Castenada and I chose to go visit him cause I had read all his books and was very interested in meeting him and hearing what he had to say. After the program, I gave him a picture of Maharaji to give to Don Juan. Ha!

I also had an anthropology professor who was a fellow student in grad school with Castenada. He thought Don Juan was real.

At this point I really don't care much whether Castenada made the whole thing up or not. I think at least some of what he had to say had a great deal of relevance and was useful in terms of working with awareness.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 14:05:15 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Bobby
Subject: Easy mistake to make, I guess...!
Message:
..confusing you and Jim, I mean ;)

Yes I do remember you posting about this first-hand encounter now you've mentioned it, Bobby. (But I also thought Jim did have real-life contact - but maybe not).

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 14:19:16 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Easy mistake to make, I guess...!
Message:
Nigel:

When Carlos was living in Oxnard I drove up on my Vespa one day to his house. Got to meet the housekeeper but that's about it. It was a fairly unassuming tract house in the suburbs.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 10:22:42 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Jesus!
Message:
Jeez ... you are guys are pretty heavy going sometimes!!!

It's just a quote ... something to reflect upon. I mean I'm not suggesting y'all move out in to the desert, give all your money to Carlos and start eating mushrooms.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 13:17:32 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Life's a bitch sometimes, ain't it?
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 12:55:26 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Eric
Subject: Actions speak louder...
Message:
Maybe not, but who for the life them would look to a corrupt cult-leader for moral guidance?

Hmm...

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:34:17 (GMT)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: All who replied
Subject: Reflections
Message:
Interestingly enough the majority of you focussed on whether or not Carlos was a fraud or not, rather than what he said, or, if you have read any of the books, on what you gained from reading the books.

Sounds a little familiar.

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 06:18:24 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Eric the Half a Bee
Subject: Judging books and covers..
Message:
Dear Eric

Sounds like most 'premies' who say : It doesn't matter if it was not what it seemed. How did it feeeeel.

The exclusion of the self from an objective perspective to prioritize an exclusively subjective one is (at the very least):

1. dangerous
2 hypnotic
3 cultish
4 lacking in 'modifiers'
5 prone to delusion by others or the self
6 indulgent
7 the foundation of many forms of paranoia and mental illness
8 divisive (hard to get people smashed out of their heads to care about issues or principles - much less do anything)
9 ......where to stop...

This is the KEY to the insidious benefit AND damage of Knowledge (not talking about Ashrams, money or any of that stuff here - just the meditation in the M context).

There is nothing for you in this world. You are all going to die. THIS feeling, THIS love (Cant get a more clever (I would even say Brilliant) device to hypnotise an audience into 'feeling' that you are talking about Their love, their feeling. Being unspecific can leave an awful lot dangerously open for assumption.

There are many small thoughts which disable a Premie from having faith in 'The World' (theres one of them), their 'Mind' (Another)which can be incredibly and SEDUCTIVELY debilitating...

Leaving your lotus feet, where can I go ?

AND THIS NEEDINESS PASSES FOR LOVE.

Be careful.

Loaf

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:34:29 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Eric
Subject: Well I read two of the trilogy...
Message:
..believing them to be an accurate subjective record of true-life events. Couldn't hack the third because the guy was such a lousy writer.

Did I gain anything? Yes - a warped sense of reality in which the ingestion of plants can bring about supernatural effects.

Anyway, there a good few contributors above who do NOT focus on Castaneda, but on the implied wisdom of your quotation. Didn't you read them?

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:05:13 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Sharing pictures and sounds
Message:
My close buddy who happens to be from New Delhi and never got involved with m or k just emailed me a jpeg of a Canadian 20-dollar bill with a picture of an East Indian guy on it with a beard and turban.

Maybe you know that our premier, the equivalent of the U.S. governor, is from India.

Is there a way I can post a jpeg or sound file to a website where I can link it to a message?

Thanks,

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 14:36:57 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Sharing pictures and sounds
Message:
Steven:

I think there are places where you can upload pictures. If I find the url will let you know. Meantime, here's a site where you can draw images and leave them for others to view. Not quite the same thing, but it might be useful.

http://udrawit.com/draw.html

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 15:24:55 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sharing pictures and sounds
Message:
You can upload images from the same site at

http://udrawit.com/upload.html

it will alow you to look up an image on your hard drive and upload it.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 05:14:09 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Some Personal Information
Message:
By the way, of my ten closest friends in British Columbia, eight of them male, only two of the males and one of the females ever received k.

I love sharing personal information with you guys after venting and expressing my not-so-nice feelings towards the Perfect Miser.

I'm sorry if I was hard on you guys recently. The best way to heal that is to exchange emails personally but so far I've received very few from people on this site.

I just replied to one received recently from someone who posts as Stonor. To the others who emailed me, sorry but they've been deleted. Please try again.

I've had visions off and on for many years about living on a commune and such, but have never been able to realize that. I'm living with my best friend right now and we've had two very intense verbal fights this week.

It takes time and effort to get to know people. I'm willing to give it a shot if anyone else out there is.

Thanks for now,

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 12:16:55 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Some Personal Information
Message:
Hello Steven,
No need to make a new thread all the time.
Just post in one or two threads and we will find it no problem.
When you post new threads too much it keeps pushing other threads
to the bottom too fast.
There is another forum called 'anything goes' where we all go to chat on more personal topics.
You are welcome to join us there.
Ask Katie for directions.
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 17:57:30 (GMT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Bill or Katie
Subject: Katie please read (was:Some Personal Information)
Message:
So where is this place?

RSVP at
and_on_anand@yahoo.com

Thanks

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:15:47 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Here's the URL - paging Sir David!!!
Message:
Hi AOAJi,
(BTW, nice to see you here again!)

Here's the URL for Anything Goes. I am too lazy to make it into a link, so you will have to cut and paste into your browser window :).

http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=forumlite

Sir David runs this forum and I'm sure he'd be happy to provide a link any time anyone wants it.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:25:27 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Here's the URL - paging Sir David!!!
Message:
Thanks Katie. It's always nice to see you. I looked at the other site (three people already responded, an hour after I accidentally found a link to it by following some link or other posted here recently).
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:00:14 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Stevin Quint
Message:
In a thread below

Kaite wrote

It is scary to me hear people talk about repeated suicide attempts - and you will also scare a lot of people on this forum by doing so. Many, many, of us have relatives and friends (sometimes premie friends) who killed themselves. If you feel suicidal NOW, call a suicide prevention hot-line or go to see a therapist as soon as you can. PLEASE! We are not therapists here, although we can be supportive :).

I also want to emphasize that if you commit suicide because your involvement with Maharaji drove you to it, you are letting him win. You will hurt people who care about you, but you won't hurt Maharaji.

I think you are making Maharaji FAR more important in your life than he really is. He SEEMS large to those of us who were involved with him, but in reality he is very small. Hardly anyone even knows who he is. Don't let him control your life anymore - it is NOT worth it! It is time to take care of YOURSELF for a change. As Joe always says 'Living well is the best revenge' - and it's true!

I do not know if this will make you feel any better, but participating in this forum or website and telling the story of your personal involvement with Maharaji on-line can help both you and other people. I think that this website and the other anti-Maharaji websites on line are absolutely the MOST damaging thing that Maharaji has ever had to deal with. I think they have really damaged his credibility and ability to recruit new premies in the West. And this website and forum were started by three or four people who wanted to tell the truth about their experiences in public, and who wanted to reach out to other ex-premies!

I think it's healthy to express your anger towards Maharaji on here - and like Janet and Carol have said, expressing anger is part of a process that helps you get your life back. Another thing you could do is try and write down your Journey entry for the site, or at least start telling your personal story on this forum - as you have started to do tonight. I think this will help you AND other people at the same time.

I think that is very kinds of you to do so Katie, I wish there are more of you.

When I got depressed last year I also wanted to take my life, I know few people that post on this forum that also wanted to do.

But regardless of what I wanted to do and how I felt, the most important thing was to find someone that cared, not because that someone had a special agenda for my recovery, but simply cared about me. Cared that I did wake up the next morning so he/she can talk to me. It was mighty difficult to find that person, but I did discover that there are those that did, and for those I am thankful.

I remember how angry I was. As long as I was left alone I was OK, but the minute someone will tell me what I should be doing, I will react with instinct and pure adrenaline. IT WAS SCARY. I could have done a lot of damage to myself and to others. I remember once I walked to one of the nurses and asked him for help, for some reason I knew that anger was building up and I wanted to stop it. Instead of understanding what was going on with me, he started talking to me intellectually. Man I think that fellow should be thankful that I was holding to the heaviest table in the room, otherwise he would have gone flying out of the window.

I am able to control my anger now (I think, and I hope), but I had to dig up it's roots first, I know were it comes and how it works.

Depression is shit. I can talk about it when I am OK. But try to talk me out of it when I am in the pits, I won't listen.

Steve, I do not know you. I have seen your posts, I have read few and thought that you were happy cursing along on your own (you may still be happy doing that). I got interested when I noticed that there were people posting back to you and Katie's post above grabbed my attention.

Just a simple question, do you think it will be helpful to tell us who you are? I gather that you are not American and you have been getting psychiatric treatment. You are also angry, totally pissed of with Lardy and want to see his ass kicked all the way backed to nirvana.

I think it is OK to hang your washing on the line if you want to, but I do believe that there are few people who are starting to get concerned about you and they are showing that with their posts to you. If you feel that it may help you to talk to someone that has been in the same place as you, e-mail me at

salam_au@iprimus.com.au

Talk about it. Talk Talk Talk

Salam

that is my real name.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:11:22 (GMT)
From: Cynthia to Salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Stevin Quint
Message:
Thank you. I am concerned. But, I must get some rest.

It's time to sleep. If you read this, Steve, try to rest, get some sleep.

It's essential. Turn your computer off. I'll be here tomorrow to check in on you.

Please keep your own safety and well-being as your 1st priority.

Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 01:33:43 (GMT)
From: La-ex
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: A few questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
Michael-I have a number of questions for you...here's a few...

A few years ago a premie named Danny Blood came through a community on the east coast and ended up staying for almost a year.
Supposedly he was at the residence for a long time in the 70's and early 80's and was told by m that he wanted him to 'friends' with m, rather than a 'devotee'.

He told us many stories about smoking dope and drinking heavily with m late into the night, and actually carrying m up to his bedroom a number of times because he was so wasted.

He also told stories about some of m's 'tests'.
He claimed that one time he was in the garage with m, and m told him to drink some gasoline from a gas container.
He drank some, but didn't swallow it,until m slapped him on the back and he had to swallow. He claimed that the gas turned into nectar, at which point m asked him why he didn't have more faith.

I asked him 'do you think m had put a sweet liquid in the container instead of gas, or was it really some sort of miracle, as he believed?'. He thought it was a miracle.

I heard of bal bhagwan ji doing similar things at the Long Island residence in the early 70's, but those were practiacl jokes aimed at playing head games with premies. They were fairly mild, and bbj commented on how gullible premies were.

Do you believe that maharaji has, or ever had a serious drinking or drug problem at any time?
Did you ever witness any tests, or miracles such as the above story?

Finally, this is just asking for an opinion, but why do you think that maharaji is posting such obvious revisions of the past?
He has to know that so many people know for a fact that he is lying, covering up and deceiving so many.
The only thing I can believe is that he and the people around him must be making a calculated decision to lie about the past, and figure that it will piss some people off (who they will lose), but that the 'true believers' will still hang in there with him.
With a newly revised past, he is free to 'trawl' for new converts as a 'master' with a 'gift', but not the messianic figure he told tens of thousands he was.
I think this must be his strategy, and I also think that he is vastly under-estimating the power of the internet.
The whole world is a couple of mouse clicks away from seeing how deceptive he is...how can he pursue such a stupid stategy?

Just wondering what you think the reasoning is behind his bizarre moves...

Thank you for your posts, and having the guts to do so...

La-ex

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:30:03 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: La-ex
Subject: A few questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
La-ex,

Here are my answers to your questions:

Do you believe that maharaji has, or ever had a serious drinking or drug problem at any time?

Yes, I believe he had (has?) a serious drinking problem and I told him so, not out of judgment but out of love and concern.

Did you ever witness any tests, or miracles such as the above story? No.

Finally, this is just asking for an opinion, but why do you think that maharaji is posting such obvious revisions of the past?

To answer this question, I think we have to look at the whole Maharaji phenomenon in context. As I said in an earlier post, he was indoctrinated into an absolute belief system since birth and witnessed first-hand how that system worked at the feet of his father who groomed him to take his place. Thus, when he was eight years old, he already had an embodied identity and a mission in life. How many other eight year olds do you know who were in a similar situation? I certainly don’t. And, he got off to a great start. By the age of 12 he had left India and in just a few short years established a global organization with thousands of people all over the world who dropped everything to dedicate their lives to him. Like it or not, that is real power. He must have felt invincible.

That much power and influence over others, however, brought with it a tremendous responsibility because the people he attracted entrusted their hearts and souls to his care. It’s one thing to play with the spoils of power and, as a young person, he had no trouble with that side of the equation. To deal with the other side, however, takes character and maturity which he lacked. I can only assume (since he never discussed it with me) that in time it must have dawned on him that he was not up to the task, that he was not the person he was led to believe he was and that he had led others to believe he was. This inner conflict may account for his drinking problem. Whether or not that is the case is beside the point. The fact is that he failed to assume the responsibility that came with his invitation and our acceptance to surrender our lives to him, and that irresponsibility has been amply demonstrated by the way he handled the ashram situation and the Jagdeo situation, to point out just two examples.

One way to deal with this dilemma is to pretend that it never happened, hence his extensive revisionism of the past. Will it work? Time will tell but I doubt it. Too many people got hurt because he failed to honor his part of the bargain. If he wants to change the deal and move on, in my opinion, he must first undo what he did. He owes those who still care whether through anger, grief, sadness, or whatever, an apology and an explanation. It must be sincere and he should be prepared to make amends for the consequences of his actions.

Michael

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 21:40:36 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: The 'Little Princes.'
Message:
Michael:

If he wants to change the deal and move on, in my opinion, he must first undo what he did. He owes those who still care whether through anger, grief, sadness, or whatever, an apology and an explanation. It must be sincere and he should be prepared to make amends for the consequences of his actions.

If he were able to acquire the maturity to do that after reaching 40 it truly would be a miracle. Reminds me of some chimpanzee studies I saw documented awhile ago. The group is led by a female 'queen' and a sort of 'royal family.' The young male offspring of the queen are treated like princes, and get into the habit of demanding and receiving special treatment, including sexual favors. The females in the group are, however, attracted to males of low status from other groups, and as a rule in order to work their way up through the hierarchy males have to leave one group and join another. If the queen dies all of the former royal family fall in status, and have to join this group changing procedure. The 'young princes' never seem to get the hang of this re-socialization process, and often end up as outcasts or are killed because they don't know how to behave appropriately around others.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 18:37:58 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Great analysis Michael - Thanks. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 18:09:15 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Maharaji's Drinking Problem
Message:
Michael:

I know Mishler said Maharaji had a drinking problem back in the mid-70s, and I was told by people around Maharaji in the mid-80s that he continued to have one then. As a premie myself, I never had any idea about this. I was told that his drink of choice was exprensive, imported, cognac.

When you say Maharaji had a drinking problem, how did that manifest? He he get drunk all the time, did his personality change when he drank? Did Maharaji drink during programs? To you knowledge, did he ever drink before going on-stage, etc.?

As I said, I had not idea about any of this as a premie, either this, or that fact that Maharaji smoked dope. I'm sure as an ashram premie I wouldn't have believed it if someone told me, unless it was someone who actually was around Maharaji and saw it, and then I'm sure I would have tried to rationalize it in some way. But I'm also sure it would have been a major DRIP in my belief system, and I am positive it would have changed my view of the ashram lifestyle. I'm positive I wouldn't have stayed in the ashram as long as I did had I known these things. It's also very helpful to know that now, in putting all that period into perspective, even though I left the Maharaji cult a long time ago.

Indeed, we mimicked Maharaji whenever we could. People wore the cologne he liked, took up tennis when we heard he did, got interested in planes because we knew he was, ate foods he said he liked, mimicked phrases he used, and wore clothes that he tossed as some kind of divine gift. To have known that he had a drinking problem and smoked dope would have had a big impact. But I think even more than this, knowing that he really wasn't interested in our welfare would have been even more significant.

Joe

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 03:44:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Look who's talking about a drinking problem!
Message:
exprensive, imported, cognac, Joe?
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:59:54 (GMT)
From: The Eye of the storm
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: A few questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
Michael
Try this. M has never reversed his teachings regarding Knowledge or the master.
(And as you may remember,when last down south of the equator there is nothing finer than a credit card and a quality marble surface. TooT TooT!!!)All aboard!!. I didn't bother me.
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 14:38:24 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: The Eye of the storm
Subject: That's ridiculous -- MANY 'reversals'
Message:
Dear Eye:

I question if you have actually been around Maharaji and his cult, or maybe you have been deluded by Maharaji or have deluded yourself, because the following statement of yours is just plain false and thousands of people will testify that it is:

Try this. M has never reversed his teachings regarding Knolwedge or the master.

Just as an example of Maharaji's more blatant 'reversals', but an absolutely fundamental one, from about 1976 to 1985, Maharaji preached that the purpose of life, was devotion to the perfect master, which just happened to be him. This was a major reversal from what he had been saying before (that the purpose of a human life was to experience and realize knowledge through practicing it) and apparently what he has been saying for the past number of years which is a direct reversal from the two earlier positions (that devotion is no longer the center of the purpose of one's existence, that there is no 'realization' just an experience and some gratitude.) Again, these are not just packaging changes, as the Elan Vital website falsely claims, they are fundamental to what Maharaji was and is preaching.

As another example, when I was a premie from 1873 - 1983, Maharaji had 5 commandments which his devotees were supposed to follow and which were also an essential part of the practice of knowledge, and Maharaji has quietly abandoned all of them, including:

CONSTANTLY MEDITATE: the preaching was you should try to meditate 24/7, and now, I think Maharaji suggests meditating an hour a day or something.

NEVER LEAVE ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND: This commandment, the essence of a cult, was that you should repress all doubts. He has also abandoned this one.

Also remember that a premie was supposed to attend 'satsang' everyday and premies were also to GIVE satsang. This is another major 'reversal.'

These are just a few of the major reversals and changes Maharaji has made to knowledge as well as the role of the master. There are many, many more that can be used as examples, unless you are too cult-programmed to recognize them.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 08:23:11 (GMT)
From: Ground Zero
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: That's ridiculous -- Nil 'reversals'
Message:
Been around since 1971. I repeat

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' Never reversed his teachings regarding K or the Master'
:) :) :) :) :) :) . Peripheral and interpreted.

Try walking a mile in my shoes. You just don't know.
Not interested in your cult blues. Not interested in your bitchin and fightin.
What a fool believes.....he sees

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:27:59 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Ground Zero
Subject: There are none so blind as will not see..
Message:
Isn't that how the phrase goes? I think that applies here, in your case. Good luck.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 02:13:58 (GMT)
From: A Pamela
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: There are none so blind as will not see..Ditto!(nt
Message:
sgbhjgmryj,
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:20:29 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 1873? Man, you ARE an old timer!! nt
Message:
I know, it's a typo, but I just couldn't help it.
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:57:23 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Yes, going on 150, I'm getting up there :) (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:54:40 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: But you look Marvelous!! :) (nt)
Message:
Well, you do for being 150!
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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 14:47:55 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: great post Joe (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:41:54 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: The entrance to his website would scare many away!
Message:
Or else make nagative impression!
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:16:37 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: A few questions for Michael Dettmers
Message:
I just have to say that second-hand accounts of people drinking gasoline that turns into nectar are less than worthless -- that's the very stuph that was circulated as 'evidence' the first time around.

I never saw anything remotely divine -- never. The best I could do was one night I saw a meteorite -- fantastic, but brief. I found out a long time later that hundreds of people on the east cost of US saw it too; it is regularly mentioned now in programs about meteorites.

Of the whack stories I heard that seemed first-hand accounts, I did not trust the teller.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:57:12 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: God actually MADE the Net to denouce such frauds!
Message:
Rawat didn't start this turn last year !

He did in the mid-80s !

Nobody would even think of DARING contradict the Lord at that time ! That was His Lila, and he was bending his devotees' mind because that was some sort of divine plan, to make him acceptable for the western society. And everybody (himself included) believed that was what was necessary for him to be recognized.

The Internet is something that he never imagined, even though he was omniscient ........

I guess if there really is a God, He made the Internet possible to renounce such frauds !!! haha

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:41:01 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: OT: on voting and our 'power' to change things
Message:
I just voted on my Oregon ballot. The voter's pamphlet: just on the measures is 374 pages long! It contains the ballot book description of the measure or change to the constitution, plus as many arguments for or against the measure that are paid for by individuals or groups @ $500 per 1/2 page column. There is another one on candidates about half as long. Every state has their own laws in addition to the nat'l govt. It is complicated to be a citizen! Often only about 1/2 of the registered voters turn out to vote. (From perhaps: feelings of powerlessness, indifference, or just not taking responsibility for what we can do.) We have somewhat limited power here as individuals. But we need to use the power we have.

For example:
One of the ballot measures up for vote in this state is Asset Forfeiture. (From an argument for the measure which would change this and require conviction): 'Current law allows police to take your cash, property, business and possessions on the suspicion that they may be linked to a crime. They do not have to prove it, either! Under asset forfeiture, the accusation is enough. In Oregon, more than 70% of the people who lose their property to forfeiture are never convicted of a crime.

from the voter's ballot book (short concise summaries):

Measure 3
Amends constitution (state):requires conviction before forfeiture; restricts proceeds usage; requires reporting, penalty

Result of a 'Yes' vote: 'yes' vote requires...(repeat of above line)

Result of a 'No' vote: Rejects....(above line)
Summary: Amends constitution. Current law does not require conviction before property forfeiture. Measure prohibits forfreiture unless the owner has been convicted of a crime involving property. Forfeited property's value must be proportional to the crime. etc, etc.

Also: the President has the power to appoint Supreme Court Justices when a vacancy occurs. They have life appointments and can change our US constitution. You can bet that the president takes good advantage of that for his party platform. Also the president has too much influence on what happens to the environment and Bush would damge it much more!

So, as much as I would like to vote for Nadar and throw out the duopoly of the two party system; our state is running a close race and voting for Nadar would hand the state to Bush; I can't do that! Instead I voted for another Pacific Green party member (and who I know personally) who is running for Secretary of State: Lloyd Marbet.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 03:00:43 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: OT: on voting and our 'power' to change things
Message:
Carol:

Lloyd Marbet, the 'Forelaws on Board' guy! I spent some time sweating in a sauna with him, during my days in the anti-nuke movement. Surprised he's still around, though the beard probably makes him look older than he is.

Thanks for the heads up on M.A.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:05:29 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: agreed about voting
Message:
I don't much like either of them but I will vote for Gore.
some choice huh? But the issues, etc. the right to choose is an issue with me.
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:19:03 (GMT)
From: Bikerji
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: [Go away Bikerji/Newboy - FA edited]
Message:
[If you've nothing to say..]
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:32:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why don't any of OUR premies sound like this?
Message:
In a report on ELK, Ms. Royle sounds sweet as pie. She's even kind of funny (notice how she got that crack in at the end about enjoying the contentment and gratitude even WITh the rain?). So why can't any of our premies sound like this? Or do they? Is this what Catweasel's like when he's talking to his fellow cult members? Shp? Dog? Can you imagine Mili (who's just trying to get laid) embracing the moment like this?

Feeling the simplicity and gratitude

A report from Melanie Royle

A rainy Saturday morning greeted nearly 2000 people as we arrived to the Hotel Ergife for the event at 11:00. The space was charged with excitement and although there were so many people, one felt at ease walking through this crowd because there was such a sense of friendliness and kindness that seemed a natural part of the whole experience of coming to see Maharaji.

Coming to see Maharaji - not a video. There is such a difference to be near him. The feeling of warm brightness in the room as everyone got settled seemed only to brighten as we first viewed a wonderful cartoon and when he walked onto the stage we all stood up to greet him. He waved his hands for us to sit and prepare to just let this experience warm our hearts.

There was such a kindness exuding from his gestures, his voice and his words and it was contagious saw people smiling, laughing, tearing up, as they simply enjoyed being near Maharaji. Near the end he said: 'What have I been talking about? Instruments. Is that what you came to hear about?

Yes, Maharaji. Listening to his analogies, stories and talk about life and living, it is simple to imagine being that guitar or that person who wants to make a sweet sound in this life. I can appreciate this life and be happy, content, joyful, feel this simplicity and gratitude, and he affirmed that these feelings are all the same.

He reminded us that: 'I am following you around, that's what the Master does,' to keep us inspired; it is so comforting. Seeing him and being part of this experience of really living this life to the fullest is immeasurable. How can I measure the contentment and gratitude I feel? Just enjoy it. I sure did, despite the rain.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 04:42:53 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Has M ever said the word, 'Compassion'?
Message:
If everything is about OUR experience...how we need to be grateful..where's the room to be concerned about anyone else?
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 18:42:54 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Daneane
Subject: I never heard him, that's for sure.
Message:
When I first signed up I was embarrassed by M's wealth, and I'd have really preferred him to be a traditional poor ascetic-type guru. And I wished he'd do something practical to feed the world and stop wars - after all, they were his promises.

How I used to rationise it all, was by saying 'Knowledge may not give food to the starving, but it makes me more into the kind of person who WOULD give food to the starving'. I remember saying that to my Mum.

Which is a load of nonsense, of course. Even the Krishnas run soup-kitchens for the homeless. We ran jumble-sales and food-co-ops and gave all the money to DLM.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:53:13 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Spliced thoughts for Mel
Message:
A report from Melanie Royle

A rainy Saturday morning greeted nearly 2000 people as we arrived to the Hotel Ergife for the event at 11:00. The space was charged with excitement and although there were so many people, one felt at ease walking through this crowd because there was such a sense of friendliness and kindness that seemed a natural part of the whole experience of coming to see Maharaji.

Sounds like a mighty big hotel if that many gathered. Do you have the official figures? I joined in a mass cycle-ride around Liverpool today, to celebrate that most wonderful human invention, the bicycle, and demanding better conditions for cyclists on Merseyside. Twice around the city centre with kids on scooters and skateboards, a nutter in a rickshaw and bloke with a sound system on his trailer playing rave stuff mega-loud and a whole fookin gamelan of bicycle bells and whistles and whoops and yells and stuff… Total fucking hoot (or, ting-a-ling). I'm sure there were a thousand of us, but the cops will probably tell you it was a hundred. Thing is, with public protest gatherings the official organisers always give one set of attendance figures, while Her Majesty's Constabulary gives a way lower number. Participant bias. Happens every time. Who did you get your figures from Melanie? EV, perhaps..?

But I digress..

And so, Mel, the space was 'charged with excitement', eh? How about charged with 'incitement to robbery' ? (but I'm not sure the space per se is culpable on that count).

Coming to see Maharaji - not a video. There is such a difference to be near him. The feeling of warm brightness in the room as everyone got settled seemed only to brighten as we first viewed a wonderful cartoon [The Simpsons..?] and when he walked onto the stage we all stood up to greet him. He waved his hands for us to sit and prepare to just let this experience warm our hearts.

Methinks you're talking DARSHAN!!! That special something you can't or won’t get from a video. That ineluctable holy pancake of transmogrification… the cat's pyjamas, kipper's knickers. Fuck - this makes it sound good - that you, Mel, wanted to STAND UP for the heart-warming moment when he came on stage, as opposed to sitting down, but when - with an elegant gesture - he bad you sit down again, well, that was SO just right, such a good sign you should sit down again and you did just that...

Preferably with a few stink-bombs under your boot-heel (oops - giving plans away here..)

There was such a kindness exuding from his gestures, his voice and his words and it was contagious saw people smiling, laughing, tearing up, as they simply enjoyed being near Maharaji. Near the end he said: 'What have I been talking about? Instruments. Is that what you came to hear about?
Yes, Maharaji. Listening to his analogies, stories and talk about life and living, it is simple to imagine being that guitar or that person who wants to make a sweet sound in this life. I can appreciate this life and be happy, content, joyful, feel this simplicity and gratitude, and he affirmed that these feelings are all the same.
He reminded us that: 'I am following you around, that's what the Master does,' to keep us inspired; it is so comforting. Seeing him and being part of this experience of really living this life to the fullest is immeasurable. How can I measure the contentment and gratitude I feel? Just enjoy it. I sure did, despite the rain.

Aaaarrrggghhhhh! This is UGLY! This is evil. This is bona-fookin-fide personality cult. How could she or anyone get like that?

I suspect, Mel, you are a really sweet, well-meaning person. But I just hope you get the f**k out of all this, one day and enjoy the rain every bit as much.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:06:39 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I think it must be me ...
Message:
... judging by this piece from Mili.

On the other hand, look what you did to THAT nice shp.

We're insincere and horrid and it upsets them.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:57:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: John, I wouldn't really take that personally
Message:
That there criticism was generated by the Automatic Complaint Generator.

Mili's not quite so loquacious.

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:01:49 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Darnit Jim!
Message:
I was THAT proud. Puzzled, but proud.

I'll frame it anyway.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 22:06:27 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, Mili!
Message:
There was such a kindness exuding from his gestures, his voice and his words and it was contagious saw people smiling, laughing, tearing up, as they simply enjoyed being near Maharaji.

Tell me this ain't a personality cult and I'll eat my hat.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:31:24 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: This place is driving me crazy
Message:
If you guys are trying to get rid of me, you're doing a pretty good job of it.

My respect for U.S. Americans has gone down a lot.

You guys remind me of the Munchkins in The Wizard Of Oz.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 08:27:19 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com
To: Steven Quint
Subject: The price of sanity
Message:
Steven:

If you seriously want to understand Americans I can give you a short reading list. (email me) On the other hand, some people aren't really interested.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 00:33:53 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Don't confuse exes with Americans
Message:
Hi Steve,

Some exes are American, but most Americans are not exes. American laws are not laid down by ex-premies, and none of us can change US laws so they can arrest the cult boss if he hasn't broken any law as the law stands.

We've got Brits, Aussies, Canadians, Froggies, Spaniards, Argies, Norgies and Premies typing here. Rainbow coalition sort of thing...

And (as far as I know) not one of us has got it in for you, or wants you to leave the forum.

So stick around, OK?

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:20:40 (GMT)
From: edited
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: [edited]
Message:
edited
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:48:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Is you being driven crazy
Message:
all the fault of forum Steven? REalLy?

If so then take a break! Forum and EPO are not going anywhere . Unless of course that damned US government decides to TAKE AWAY individual freedom and censor the site.

And I am sick of M and his cult being blamed on the USA. We have a mostly stable constitution that has guraranteed a fair amount of human rights for over 200 years. M has taken advantage of it and so have all of us who live here, one way or another.

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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 21:34:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Now why would you say that?
Message:
What's wrong, Steve?
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:13:46 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I can't believe EV sent you this!!!
Message:
And I actually thought that was a spoof email the 1st time I read this !

Thanks again !!

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:29:33 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Ignore the above post (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 at 23:11:06 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Jim
Subject: Now why would you say that?
Message:
I don't know, Jim.

I just wish the Munchkins would lead me to a face-to-face encounter with the Wizard Of Oz.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:16:01 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: Jai_Choix@webtv.net
To: Steven Quint
Subject: here ya go steve-best i can do fer now:
Message:
how to get from the portland oregon airport to the malibu residence. you dont have to fly to the airport--just use the driving directions to get on the known roads from where you are. i picked the closest place to you i could find in the U S.

i'm giving you a page out of my yahoo maps file. click on the linkhere

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:36:53 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: steven quint
Subject: damn! the link was to yahoo maps!!! grrrr
Message:
go to yahoo. go to maps. go to driving directions; pput PDX in the left side. put anacapa view drive, malibu, CA in the right side. wait for your map. use zoom out to see the scope from the coast highway into the canyons.

make sure ya wait till he's home, to do whatever you wanted to do..
BR>you wanted directions to the emerald city. i'm the cowardly lion. Roger's the scarecrow,Jim;s the Tinman, Carol can be our dorothy. theres the yellw brick road, and i do have a pair of the ruby slippers. when do we leave?

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Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 17:40:18 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: You the cowardly lion??? HUH????
Message:
Ppput 'em up .. put 'em up ...

You Janet are the fuckin' Wizard!

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 09:01:56 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: janet
Subject: damn! the link was to yahoo maps!!! grrrr
Message:
Hi Sweetie:

I was there September 20, 1977, 36 days after receiving the techniques of k and one day after my 25th birthday.

I remember because I flew from London, Ontario to L.A. for a one-day program on my birthday.

I saw Tim Galway drive up to the residence but I and my traveling companion Kirk Laidlaw, an ashram premie at the time, were politely but summarily turned away at the gate.

By the way, I share your apparent love of Prince's 1999 and lately have been playing it more than any other song.

Love,

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:13:55 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: janet of venice
Subject: here ya go steve-best i can do fer now:
Message:
Janet, I'm a bit upset at you for not responding when I asked you to send me your phone number.

Please respond when I reach out to help you as was the case then or for help.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:27:51 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: you sure you wanna run up the bills???
Message:
steve-- i live in los angeles. youre up in canada. do you really wanna run up the phone bill when we have email and this place, already paid for?? i also have instant messenger on the microsoft network. if you have a hotmail box, you can talk to me in realtime when you're in your hotmail. I also spend every night until dawn, our time, counseling in the talkcity chatroom 'astronet'. with all this--which can be conducted silently, in the middle of the night , when everyone else is asleep(including my two very sick kittens), why run up an unneccessary bill and break the stillness for everybody else, when we have all these other ways to talk???
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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 07:17:47 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Janet of Where?
Subject: here ya go steve-best i can do fer now:
Message:
P.S. Your link doesn't work. I think it's the second time this has happened with your links.

Please test your link out on the 'post message' screen before you post the message. You're the one who hounded me to learn about links so you should practice what you preach.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 02:00:18 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: So would I, Steven
Message:
Steven,

I'm very concerned about you. human to human.

I've given you my full name, where I live. You are in a crisis, don't listen to anyone's sarcastic remarks about you. I happened to be born in the U.S. Did I ask for it? Hardly. Sometimes I wish I was never born. But, goddamm it, I was born, now what do I do?

Did you read my post? What did you think? Do you have anyone you can turn to, to call, to see face to face in the real world? Can I help you find someone? Do you have a therapist or shrink?

Do you have access to a crisis hotline? I have been in the same place you are now. I've been in psych hospitals. I understand.

Please reach out to someone. If it's not me or someone else on the forum, give a hotline a call.

If we are the munchkins, and the Wizard of Oz is Maharaji, then I'm sorry, we can't provide a face to face for you. Don't you think I'd like to walk up to that palacial 'residence' and just punch him in the nose? Or REALLY DECK HIM? (And I could do it!!!):)) Of course I would. But I'd be the one arrested, not HIM!!

I'd at least like to 'flick his nose with my middle finger.' He's a son of a bitch. He fucked us all over royally. But the fantasies I have of telling him off and briging him down are fantasies. I can only watch and wait....and tell the truth.

And to preserve your own sanity, please, call someone. We are not munchkins here, Steve, we are real people who have similar experiences to yours right now. Now stop being stubborn and act on your own behalf in a righteous way....take some steps to feel better. You deserve it, don't let that bastard ruin you entire life. You have much more to learn, explore and most of all, you have a right to have happiness, fun, play.

There's nothing more I can add, please do something that will make YOU feel better.

Be well and safe,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 04:41:11 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: So would I, Steven
Message:
I just slept for three hours. When I woke up, I thought it was morning.

I had a very intense week getting closer to my closest friends in British Columbia, about six males and two females. I'm feeling like I need more female friends and yesterday I was feeling frustration about that after a lot of testosterone around me.

I'm far from being in a crisis. I just need to get laid more often.

Thanks for your concern,

Steve

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 16:23:12 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Okay, today you're fine
Message:
Steve,

I will take your word you are not in a crisis. So I won't pester you with any attempts at resolving your anger.

Hope you get laid.

Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Oct 22, 2000 at 13:56:22 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Now that could be a problem..nt
Message:
nt
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