Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Oct 31, 2000 at 14:38:15 (GMT)
From: Oct 21, 2000 To: Oct 29, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Curious George -:- The Question of all Questions to Micheal D -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:54:12 (GMT)
__ Yolycow -:- The Question of all Questions to Micheal D -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 14:48:33 (GMT)

Jim -:- Maharaji's toy philosophy -- Tokyo -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:22:37 (GMT)
__ Mili -:- Maharaji's toy philosophy -- Tokyo -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 20:04:59 (GMT)
__ __ me..................Mili, -:- Since when do you have a problem with arrogant pri -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:04:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- poor, anonymous slob -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:52:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- You wish you were there, Mili? -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 19:37:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh yeah, Mili? -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 23:01:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Oh yeah -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 05:29:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, Mili, it DOESN'T take 1 to know 1 (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 15:29:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Mili it is new info -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:59:23 (GMT)
__ cq -:- philosophy??? implies a love of wisdom -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:28:34 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- I'm missing something here -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 15:41:38 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- i saw the prototype in santa monica -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 08:55:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- the videos were bad enough in general -:- Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 02:29:25 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Mike Dettmers, Here is your update on the lord. -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 04:38:23 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Mike Dettmers, Here is your update on the lord. -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 05:43:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ jondon -:- I went to a interview for knowledge.... -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 15:49:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ TJ -:- I went to a interview for knowledge.... -:- Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 01:33:53 (GMT)
__ Rick -:- Maharaji's toy philosophy -- Tokyo -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 04:06:27 (GMT)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Maharaji's toy philosophy -- Tokyo -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:43:16 (GMT)

a0aji -:- Humor and General Interest OT thread -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:32:03 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- Humor and General Interest OT thread -:- Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 04:48:04 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- Humor and General Interest OT thread -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 07:41:33 (GMT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Humor and General Interest OT thread -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 07:46:38 (GMT)
__ ufo Ji -:- Humor and General Interest OT thread - UFO - 5 kb -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 04:15:42 (GMT)
__ __ effi Ji -:- Humor and General Interest - UFO - 10 kb (long) -:- Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 20:02:34 (GMT)
__ __ L. Ron. Anand Ji -:- If you don't change channel during Dianetics advt -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 07:00:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- If you don't change channel during Dianetics advt -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:23:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- If you don't change channel during Dianetics advt -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 00:34:55 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- Auburn Virus -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:34:44 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- er, excuse me, aoa... -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:20:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ And On Anand Ji -:- er, excuse me, aoa... -:- Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 20:24:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- er, excuse me, aoa... -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:33:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Oy! Who said you you were an asshole? -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 01:05:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- He did. Don't question it. -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:55:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- I heard you. -nt- -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 21:42:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ And On Anand Ji -:- Oye Como Va -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 02:54:02 (GMT)

Selene -:- oh oh another one? anyone know about this.... -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 18:52:27 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Check with Sir Dave -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 09:09:13 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- It's my favorite post from forum -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 15:26:08 (GMT)
__ Cheese person -:- oh oh another one? anyone know about this.... -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:04:04 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- I know you were but -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 17:53:35 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- cheese moving OT, yes, but... -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 20:52:01 (GMT)
__ __ a0aji -:- ottabee who CUT the cheese, sounds like -nt- -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:11:44 (GMT)
__ Paul -:- Selene, the 'cheese' phenomena is just the -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 20:39:49 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- oh oh another one? anyone know about this.... -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 20:25:07 (GMT)
__ selene -:- oops I suppose this is OT -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 18:55:31 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- thanks to all -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 02:16:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Sheesh! Management is still into this stuff? -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:09:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- ours is -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 15:24:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Sick is right! (ot) -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 16:56:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I've pretty much had it actually -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 17:51:17 (GMT)

Joe -:- Reprise re Terry Yingling letter to Dettmers -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:28:55 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Reprise re Terry Yingling letter to Dettmers -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 18:14:13 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- The Vermont Political Scene -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:03:55 (GMT)
__ owoo ji -:- readers: this post ^^^^ can now be read/tnx FA nt -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 04:27:06 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- FA empty post ^^^ -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 23:23:21 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Adimistrator -:- FA empty post ^^^ -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:08:43 (GMT)

Joe -:- The continuing deposition of Michael Dettmers -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:23:03 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- In San Antonio -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:23:04 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Great discussion, guys -- great questions -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 01:57:36 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- Maharaji had caught us trying to steal our lives -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:30:52 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- FA - empty posts -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 19:37:38 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Glitch in the software? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 19:50:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- Glitch in the software? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 23:35:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- Glitch in the software? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:03:12 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- The continuing deposition of Michael Dettmers -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 19:33:03 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- I would love to read Michael's answer too -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:55:38 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- I would love to read Michael's answer too -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 17:57:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- glad you were interested -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:46:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rani -:- 14 -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 18:27:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- hey Rani,what part of the 99.99% do you like best? -:- Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 04:57:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ jondon -:- 14 -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 20:33:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- My response to Rani -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 19:57:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You know what that tells me about you? -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 23:36:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Knowledge and the age of majority -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:09:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rani -:- Correction -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 18:52:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Practical Advice? -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 04:24:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I LOVE premie 'reasoning' -- an oxymoron? -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 23:30:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Rani, just how helpful is the Master's Wisdom? -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 20:29:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Correction -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:47:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- very common defense mechanism of premies -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:33:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- right on Susan -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:40:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- another typo -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:50:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- LOL supposed to be 'loosers' (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:54:14 (GMT)

Yves' squeezing balls -:- Joan (Ki-Jay) Apter III -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:17:17 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- How was it? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:02:44 (GMT)
__ __ Curious George -:- Fixation on Glen Whitaker? -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:59:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Fixation on Glen Whitaker? -:- Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 14:02:00 (GMT)
__ __ Yves -:- Which part do you have a hard time with? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:28:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- This perhaps? -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:22:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Yves -:- Translation for dummies -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 15:04:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Translation for dummies -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 23:42:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- Heavy -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 16:39:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- Hold-back expected reactions -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 15:13:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Purrrrrrrrrr -:- This perhaps? -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 14:20:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You MUST be having a bad day, Dave -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 02:09:25 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- Important point -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:53:21 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- Important point -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:21:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Where she is now -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:30:02 (GMT)

Happy -:- The Swiss Foundation -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:04:53 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- The Swiss Foundation -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 20:50:34 (GMT)
__ __ Ana T -:- The Swiss Foundation - Onae Trust ? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:48:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- The Swiss Foundation - Onae Trust ? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:13:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- a fine line ... a question of ethics -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 18:02:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Elan Vital Church status -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:01:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- oops, I see you've asked a similar Q. sorry (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 18:12:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- It bears repeating cq and does matter (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 01:59:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Thanks for bringing it to MD's attention above(nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 17:39:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ A Friend -:- Ana T -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 23:15:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ana T -:- Ana T is *not* Tonette -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 23:44:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Ana T definately NOT Tonette -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:39:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ana T -:- Ana T definately NOT Tonette -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 01:17:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ana T -:- The Swiss Foundation - Onae Trust ? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:32:22 (GMT)

Michael Dettmers -:- Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 13:13:02 (GMT)
__ janet -:- Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 23:41:15 (GMT)
__ __ Rick -:- Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:11:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:37:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rick -:- Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 04:09:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- webtv-i can do it but it takes many edits -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 08:44:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- webtv-i can do it but it takes many edits -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 17:14:01 (GMT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 23:53:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- u 2 huh....we need to take a head count -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 08:46:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Oliver -:- u 2 huh....we need to take a head count -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 10:18:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- oliver you are hired -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 15:50:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- When do I start?..... -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 02:36:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Jim and I have a truce at the moment -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 02:45:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Unbelievable -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 03:26:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Unbelievable (OT) -:- Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 03:54:28 (GMT)
__ Jennifer -:- Speaking to Michael -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:15:04 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:12:58 (GMT)
__ EddyTheTurtle -:- Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 13:30:49 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Bob Mishler, Sophia Collier, et al -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:46:40 (GMT)

EddyTheTurtle -:- The Truth about M , Dettmers and Bob Mishler -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 11:16:10 (GMT)
__ bill -:- You can skip over this ^ post.-nt -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:00:56 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Clever use of '^' sign, Bill (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:34:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Thanks St James, I see Anonomousie popped in....nt -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 04:52:05 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Truth site now updated -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 11:13:56 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- How's progress on the archive search facility? -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 15:54:46 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Thanks -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:23:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Glad to see the FA's on the ball (NT) -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 13:25:02 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Err, I was afraid someone would ask -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:12:03 (GMT)
__ Jennifer -:- Truth site now updated -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 12:46:13 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Most of MD's post are also saved here -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 13:31:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jennifer -:- Thanks, JM-nt -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:26:05 (GMT)
__ Just a question -:- Sir Dave -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 12:05:15 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Sir Dave -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 12:39:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lurkex -:- Sir Dave -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 02:55:09 (GMT)

janet -:- how you(dettmers) changed the Mission -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 08:51:47 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- Collier's Copyright (was: how you (dett..) -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:13:53 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- I think most copyrights are for 28 yrs... -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:41:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- but it is stated at the beginning -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:43:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Oh, I didn't realize that... -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 18:10:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sohia Collier and Copyrights -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:25:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Thanks. I'm glad Sophia is supportive. (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 01:12:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Sohia Collier and Copyrights -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:46:57 (GMT)

Marianne -:- Jagdeo -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:28:41 (GMT)

T. Yingling/Elan Vital -:- A Memorandum to Anonymous Parties -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:51:08 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- Not a cult since 1971! _nt_ -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:19:27 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:54:12 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Micheal Dettmers
Subject: The Question of all Questions to Micheal D
Message:
Dear Micheal,

When you were around M ........here it is......

DID HE EVER PRACTICE KNOWLEDGE???

Did he ever put his money where his mouth is?

Did he ever practice what he preached?

Did he become mindless to experience the heart?

IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE IT FROM WHAT YOU HAVE SAID.

It's really hard to meditate when one has a drinking problem.

When one has a drinking problem I would assume it's because

one has a confused mind not a clear one.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 14:48:33 (GMT)
From: Yolycow
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: The Question of all Questions to Micheal D
Message:
This was discussed below. The answer was 'No'. Of course. 'Knowledge' is useless. That's why.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:22:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's toy philosophy -- Tokyo
Message:
This is the latest from ELK. Posted, I see, by my old friend, Ron Bator:

The nature of wisdom

A report from Brigitte Wagner and Ron Bator

Tokyo, 22 October 2000

'In the morning of the event 28 Japanese people received Knowledge. Later in the day about 500 people - 300 from Japan and 200 from other countries - listened to Maharaji speak. His address was followed by an Auto-Knowledge session.

What follows is our joint recollections of what Maharaji told his Tokyo audience. It does not represent any kind of official record of what was a beautiful event.'

This is an opportunity to express what the heart feels, for you to listen and to understand a little more about this existence.

Funny how he just presumes that he's always got something to teach, no matter how repetitive or banal. I know, he couldn't really call himself a 'guru' otherwise. Still, it does look a little funny, doesn't it? Just one day I'm going to try something like this. I'll walk up to a group of lawyers or maybe just a few friends and say 'this is an opportunity to express what the heart fells, for you to listen and to understand a little more about this existence.'

So many things are happening in our lives with our relatives and our jobs. But one thing is certain: this existence comes to an end. It is in fact a very simple and profound process. There are three things that dance in this process: the breath, the consciousness and then the 'nothing'.

But what about taxes?

So what exactly is the Hamster saying here anyway? That there are these 'three things' somewhere, somehow? The breath, which, we know, he's attributed all sorts of conscious qualities too, straight out of the oldest, hoariest Hindu superstitions. What he does to the breath is obscene. Dressing it up like a Mr. Potato Head. Okay, that's old news. But now we have a new imaginary super hero, the 'nothing'? Okay, I'm game. Give it to me?

In truth we are this breath, this consciousness. If they are taken away from us, we are nothing. Nothing.

How embarrassing to see Maharaji make this same glaring logical mistake, in public no less, year after year after year. Maharaji, if you're reading this, please note:

JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS A NECESSARY ELEMENT OF SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT IS THAT SOMETHING

Sure, you need to breathe to survive. You also need to go number two. You dn't go number two, you die, fella. Burst colon, that's it. So why aren't you telling everyone they're shit? Same 'reasoning', isn't it?

And so to focus on this process, whilst we are alive and whilst we have consciousness has to be most important.

Yes, that's why I'm constantly making sure that I go poo whenever I have to. Especially while I'm alive. Cause one thing we know for sure (see, I can do it!), once I'm gone, no more poo. If I want to poo, this is it. THIS is my opportunity.

If the journey of life is a river, where are we going and what is on the other side? If life is an instrument, what kind of sound does it play? If life is like walking a tight rope, from point A to point B, just a rope going from here to there, what's here and what is on the other side?

And if dreams were butterfly kisses and cats could fly... no, scratch that, here's a better one .... if you took all the pens in the city of Victoria and laid them down end-to-end, they'd probably form a line that is AT LEAST a couple of miles long. And here's another one: if you took a match into a room with a wood stove, a torch and a gaslight, which would you light first? (The match). And, how about this one: if you had to pick just one Peter Frampton song as the best of all time -- and COULDN'T CHOOSE 'Feel Like I do' -- what would it be?

Really gets you thinking, some of this stuff. Deep, I guess you could say.

People find themselves in ignorance and they yearn for Knowledge;

A lot of people have a natural thirst to learn more about the world, about themselves, maybe just to learn a trade. Yes, true.

they find themselves in doubt and they yearn for clarity;

I guess depending on what they're doubting, if it matters to them at all, they want some answers, yes.

they find themselves in pain and they yearn for joy.

Duh!

This is not a mistake. Touch something hot and we feel pain. 'Ouch,' that's the reaction. 'Get me away from the pain.' That's wisdom.

What? THAT's wisdom? THAT's what you got? Even a worm shrinks from pain, doesn't it? I dunnoooooooo, guru. What else you got?

UNDERSTAND YOUR NATURE

That you suffer and you want to come out of that suffering, that you feel darkness and you want to come out of that darkness, that you feel sorrow and you want to go towards joy - this is your wisdom.

What is this? Did I say I was 'suffering'? Did I say I felt 'darkness'? 'Sorrow'? You trying to brainwash me or something? Hypnotize me? And hey, what are you doing there? Get your hands out of my pockets!

This is your nature. You should understand this nature. You are not like a fish. Take a fish out of water and it wants to go back into the water. If you are drowning, you want to get out of the water.

Oh yeah, THAT's pretty clear. My nature is suffering, darkness and sorrow. However, to be clear, I'm NOT like a fish. And then something about drowing I need to speak an instructor about.

If you don't understand your nature, mistakes will be made. Your nature is to come to that place where you feel content. You are bound by the laws of this nature.

And to think that I used to laugh at $cientology as being vapid and stupid!

So you must walk this tight rope, you have no choice. You can't just goof off. You need a balancing rod, because you are going to need balance.

Well, I was goofing off just the other day. If I was walking a tightrope I didn't know it. I was just plain goofing off. Yes, guru, mistakes WERE made. But no, I'm not going to let you be MY balancing rod! Get away from me, you fat, greasy Hamster!

You will make mistakes. When you do, this balancing rod will help you to stabilise, bring your balance back. Each step you take must be precise and deliberate.

Hey, I thought this was supposed to be inspirational! First I'm suffering in dark sorrow. Then I'm not like a fish. Instead, I'm drowning. And now I'm going to make mistakes AND I'm a cripple. Great! I love you too. (Sheesh!)

You have a need, a thirst. You have been given a heart to help you to take each step deliberately and consciously.

What the hell....? Are you saying that if I don't use my heart to taek each step 'deliberately and consciously' (which doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun, let me tell you) I've got to give it back? Fuck you! It's MY heart and I've got news for you: it's NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS!

If you decide to take this journey, you have the gift of Knowledge. It is the most beautiful, most stabilising balancing rod there is. The real master will tell you how to do it. But the master says: 'You decide. If you want to take this journey, I will give you the balancing rod.'

Hm, I wodner who he's referring to? Coem on, Maharaji, don't leave me in the dark, suffering sorrow like this. I'm drowning, fella! Who's the Master already? Don't play games with me, Maharaji. Now who IS it that ....

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, I seeeeeeeee! Very, very clever, you little devil you. YOU'RE the master! See, I figured it all out by myself. You say that the real Master is going to say this shit about, like, 'you decide' and shit. But just before that you yourself said it! This is like a Cone or something, isn't it? CooooooOOOOOOLL!

NO HYPOTHESIS

It is so incredibly beautiful to talk about what the heart wants and to talk about this life and how to fulfil it. When I speak about fulfillment, it is not a hypothesis, it is a reality. It's possible in this day and age that a human being can be content. It is possible to capture each day as it comes and goes.

You arrogant prick! What the fuck do you really know about anyone? How people live their lives, how they FEEL? You stupid, arrogant prick. One day, I'd like to talk with you personally, you coward. I'd like to see you capture that day as it comes and goes.....

I awaken and then it is there. It is my day. I don't know then what will happen. It is the ultimate mystery. It is a secret, but I am alive. That's a fact. And I can be content. That's a fact. I can capture this day. That's a fact. This life can be a beautiful song, because the instrument was played well.

Sorry, got a little testy there. Okay, what you got for me now? Hey, that's a neat metaphor, that song thing! And then you got your instrument too. Not bad! Not bad at all.

And the journey went well, because the right captain was on the boat and the right crew was brought on board. You are the passenger. Sit and enjoy. Look around, see the beautiful scenery, enjoy, touch the water, sleep when you need to rest. Knowing that this ship is in capable hands, wonder at the stars.

Hey, that's pretty special, all that boat stuff. You got a boat, guru? Tell us about it.

THE WINGS OF LIFE

Its not like the crew has kept the boat tied to the dock and the scenery hasn't changed and every day it seems so similar. This is not why you have been given the wings of life.

That is the lamest mixed metaphor I've ever read in my life and YES, I'm including all my own posts. Yech!

Listen, you have Knowledge. Practise, accept the beauty in your life... Do this practice in earnest with no shortcuts. Let it be the foundation of your day. When ignorance comes, turn to Knowledge. when doubts come, turn to clarity. Yes, there is unconsciousness, but choose consciousness. Yes, there is an ocean of sorrow, but there is an ocean of joy. Confusion will come, but the heart will yearn for clarity. And where does it lie? In your breath. So take it. That breath is perpetuating. It is like a little engine, allowing this consciousness - the possibility - to go to another moment. The moment you accept that breath in your life, there is no one richer than you.

So consciousness is 'possibility' now? And tell me, how does one NOT 'accept' that breath? Junk philosophy. New age Candyland.

AS CLOSE AS THIS BREATH

Clarity is how close to you? As close as this breath. Your heart is how close to you? You must learn how to listen. It is the most difficult thing. And the master asks that you listen.

I am not talking to your mind... I have nothing to teach your mind and never will. Why bring a stranger between us? I am talking to your heart.

Hey, isn't this the same guru that said that the mind was just fine, blah, blah, blah? Just got to keep it in its place and all that shit? Now it sounds like its place is at the bottom of the ocean. Maharaji wants his premies to be mindless breathing machines, like guppies in a fishbowl. Now I get the fish thing. He thinks people SHOULD be like fish. Gaping, wide-mouthed, empty, docile eyes. I'm speechless. (Is this thing almost over yet?)

Let one heart understand what the other heart is saying. If you are looking for the kingdom of heaven, it is not to be found in the mind. The concept of heaven is created by the heart. The concept of hell is created by the mind. The concept of joy is created by the heart, sorrow by the mind. The concept of clarity by the heart, doubt by the mind. The answer is created by the heart. the question by the mind. There is no wisdom in removing the obstacle. The wisdom is to go around it.

'The concept of heaven is created by the heart' ...... 'The concept of heaven is created by the heart' .....What the fuck is he talking about? Anyone?

The mountain is bigger than you are. You need to witness your heart daily. This is the best affirmation. Learn how to go around and don't pick a fight with this thing. You will never win, nobody ever has. Brahmanand said: 'I was searching in this world and this society, but you have shown me that it is within me.'

Yeah, and Snow White said 'which one's Sleepy?' I'M getting sleepy. This is death-on-stick.

Accept your blessings, Knowledge, the master, this life. The heart is in awe of the infinite. Don't define it, let it be in awe. Don't save it to that last day of your life. This breath is priceless. While you are alive, be enriched, be fulfilled. This is wisdom.

So be wise like a fish. Accept your Master. Accept your Master. Be like a fish. Accept your Master.

Anyone seen Ron Bator recently, by the way?

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 20:04:59 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji's toy philosophy -- Tokyo
Message:
You arrogant prick! What the fuck do you really know about anyone? How people live their lives, how they FEEL? You stupid, arrogant prick. One day, I'd like to talk with you personally, you coward. I'd like to see you capture that day as it comes and goes.....
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:04:54 (GMT)
From: me..................Mili,
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Since when do you have a problem with arrogant pri
Message:
cks? Somehow mr rawat doesnt come up on your arrogant alert system? What makes an arrogant prick?
Does it bother you to know about his drug usage?
While claiming to be the ultimate ruler. Claiming to have the power and right to decide our fates and direct our lives.
Just what is it that makes you want to kill someone?
An unwillingness to alter a belief in the face of new info?
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:52:41 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: You
Subject: poor, anonymous slob
Message:
'New info' ???

That Maharaji used to toke up to 'Frampton Comes Alive' 20 years ago? Wish I was there.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 19:37:36 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: You wish you were there, Mili?
Message:
... instead of being ... where?

... in an ashram, constantly meditating, celibate, penniless, like he told us to?

Yeah, you wanted to be with the Stingmaster, didn't you?

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 23:01:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Oh yeah, Mili?
Message:
Tell me, would you have taken the 'X-rated' pledge? Would you have lied to your fellow premies if anyone asked what goes on up the hill?

The one thing that's been consistent about you ever since you started posting here, there or anywhere about Maharaji is that you have a really questionable sense of morality. You're a slimy kind of guy, Mili. Face it, that time you sent the fake petition to Usenet? That said it all. You're slime.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 05:29:41 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh yeah
Message:
I guess it takes one to know one, doesn't it Jim?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 15:29:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: No, Mili, it DOESN'T take 1 to know 1 (nt)
Message:
ddddddd
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:59:23 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili it is new info
Message:
Because most of that shit was hidden from us at the time. And because at the time he insisted on his devotees living lifestyles that were not in line with HIS ethics and morals. and now it has to be talked about because he is still pushing his biz and trying to hide the past. It's called revisionism and you know it.
You 'wish I had been there' remark is typical of how I see a lot of premies. They DON'T CARE about social issues or how individual lives may be hurt. They only care about protecting M.
Yes this is a generalization but you are not helping to dispel it.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:28:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: philosophy??? implies a love of wisdom
Message:
The so-called Master says:

The moment you accept that breath in your life, there is no one richer than you.

(THAT'S RICH THAT IS - LIKE WE'VE FORGOTTEN TO REMEMBER TO BREATHE)

...

The concept of joy is created by the heart, ...

(DID HE JUST SAY THAT? - A CONCEPT CREATED BY THE HEART?)

... sorrow by the mind. The concept of clarity by the heart, doubt by the mind.

(HE DID!)

The answer ...

(A CONCEPT THEN?)

...is created by the heart. The question by the mind. There is no wisdom in removing the obstacle.

(WHAT???)

The wisdom is to go around it.

(TO GO AROUND THE MIND? oh, I SEE - THAT'S WHY YOU USED TO CALL THE MIND THE DEVIL IS IT?)

......


This breath is priceless ...
(PRICELESS? - AND HOW MUCH HAS THE MAHA EARNED FROM SUGGESTING IT'S HIS GIFT THEN?)

.
.
.
And just who is this 'Master Bator', Jim?

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 15:41:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm missing something here
Message:
What on earth is an Auto-knowledge session?
Does that mean K sessions via satellite? They actually have a phrase for this?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 08:55:23 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: i saw the prototype in santa monica
Message:
MJ has made a video of himself presenting the four techniques by means of video editing. or sampling, if you prefer to call it that. Meaning, he didnt even use fresh full footage and let the tape run 'live', throughout the shoot. He looped it, to repeat itself a number of times, while dwelling on presenting each techinque, as if to ingrain the particular movement one must perform when doing each one. Therefore, if one were to deconstruct the video into its separate parts, and remove the repetitions, it would be extremely short indeed. We were his guinea pigs he tried it out on, at its virgin premiere airing, april 25 in santa monica civic center auditorium. I, personally, was insulted to be kept waiting all day with noplace to sit down, only to be admitted into the hall and seated, have him come out and drone on pointlessly for some length of time, (while i rocked myself in agony on the hard chairs, going into hypoglycemic free fall and mentally cussing at him to SHUTUP, SHUTUP,SHUT UP!!!!!) and then to have him clearly leave the hall with his part done for the day, and the lights dimmed, and this video was rolled!!! It felt like the biggest 'Fuck You' he ever handed us. Or handed me. That did it.Drip.. .drip...drip.. .KA-BOOMthat was the day i walked away. i really missed my dramatic moment. I should have stood up at the peak of my pain and bellowed my 'SHUT UP!!' at him out loud, and THEN walked out and fainted on the lobby floor, from lack of food and sleep.
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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 02:29:25 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: the videos were bad enough in general
Message:
Watching them at evemts on hard chairs was agonizing.
Receiving k that way is the ultimate joke.
So you must be saying he went on to do this on a wider audience?
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 04:38:23 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mike Dettmers, Here is your update on the lord.
Message:
nutshelled,
'-you are the passenger, the right captain, the master of life, is on the boat piloting, accept your blessing, the master, the knowledge. I have nothing to teach your mind, I have nothing to teach your mind and never will, why bring a stranger between us,
the mind creates questions and sorrow.'

I will continue with the mid life crisis report, but here you can see that at the end of his debate about his mid life crisis, he came back down hard on the same old delusion.

He is pushing the I am the master of life and you are but a passenger trip still and he is doing it in 80 countries.
Some debate condemnation versus compassion.
I see thier point but what is most needed is a report from someone who knew him up close to just tell the truth that he is not in any way elevated or magical or special and that he engaged in these excesses...
Excesses in drinking, drugs, powertripping over others, rages,
sex, disrespect, swearing, hitting others...

The truth about how he is/was and how much he is not the master of life is crucial. People in 80 countries are counting on the truth to be told. You will die someday and we dont know when.
If you will make a factual report on him that is niether condemnation nor compassionate, but factual.

He is trying to paint reality in such a way that he is the authority on life. The master of life. The one who owns your breath. I have the publication from 1999 where it qoutes him saying 'Your breath is my gift to you'

The key need is for someone to just tell the truth in a straightforward report stating how ordinary and faulty he is.

rawat himself stands no chance of freeing himself of his delusion
unless the truth is there for all to see.

He has no intention of changing his delusion that he is the master of life. I can quote other lines of his from the late ninties.

Please see the crucial need.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 05:43:00 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Mike Dettmers, Here is your update on the lord.
Message:
Belkis the instructor, interviews people for 'knowledge' and rejects them unless they see prem rawat as the master of life.

On one hand for western media, we have EV and prem playing it one way, but when you watch the videos, and meet the instructors,
you are led down the road of believeing him and his master of life programming.

The lying about the past and those doing it zealously, are covering for thier lord like always.

Think about it, he has thousands of hours of video shots of him talking to stadiums of western people. He shows clips of that in other countries and falsely pumps up the attendence numbers at 'events' in his reports to all the 'premies' and in official
publications.

All the cheering crowds and his crown and mala shots are waiting for the next generation to sanitize and present as 'see! he was the lord!'
Oh glorious lord.
The problem, in addition to all the ones you may already see, is that he robs people of the chance of any clarity on the subject of a superiour self aware power.

You yourself show signs of still having unresolved repercussions as a result of his destroying the 'lord' idea.
You say in your earlier post that wishing or wanting or actually the word you used was 'expect'.
-The intensity of your expectations that life will make your wants and pursuits manifest is what does the trick in life.-

Mark Appleman on the forum also thinks like that. And others I presume.
Where the unresolved part of that comes in is here..
Is this thing you are makeing demands of....is it self aware or not?
rawat thinks it is not. To him, the 'experience' is not self aware. He has no one to answer to. buddhists also think the 'oneness' is not self aware, but they have to somehow behave perfectly to attain the 'oneness', which makes no sense in a number of ways. For example, if the oneness is not self aware, and doesnt know about you, why would it care how you behave and who would have bothered to construct a behavioural staircase that parts of yourself have to travel back to you if you are not even aware! ect ect.

If it IS self aware, maybe human nature shows us evidence we can read about its nature. I think I see evidence.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 15:49:22 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I went to a interview for knowledge....
Message:
a couple of times in the Boston area. Belkis was the interviewer and she did not allow me to become eligible for receiving knowledge because I had mentioned that I had practiced a type of meditation before. She told me I would have to wait at least six more months until I could ask for it again. My roommates told me not to say anything that would make them question me. Just say yes to every question. Yes, I will allot an hour everyday to practice meditation, Yes I will offer myself for service when called upon, Yes I will attend videos as many times a week as possible. Basically, my roommates were saying: Just lie through your teeth and they will let you receive knowledge. They have learned well, like master, like premies.
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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 01:33:53 (GMT)
From: TJ
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: I went to a interview for knowledge....
Message:
Jondon, don't you see that you were not meant to have knowledge? You should really move on with your life and stop your bitching. You did'nt get it, a lot of people did not get it. You're just a whiner. And you'll never know how beautiful it is to have knowledge.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 04:06:27 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji's toy philosophy -- Tokyo
Message:
Very entertaining, Jim.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:43:16 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji's toy philosophy -- Tokyo
Message:
'In truth we are this breath, this consciousness. If they are taken away from us, we are nothing. Nothing.'

So, if you are in the hospital and you're in a coma and they have you on a ventilator, are you nothing? Or are you actually realizing this Knowledge? I mean, you're breathing, or at least the machine is breathing for you, but your consciousness has been altered quite a bit... Just how does the Hamster or the devoted premie answer these questions?

'I am not talking to your mind... I have nothing to teach your mind and never will.'
I think this is the first really honest thing I've heard from the little troll.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:32:03 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Humor and General Interest OT thread
Message:
Plenty of good stuff on the net today.
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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 04:48:04 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Humor and General Interest OT thread
Message:
Jim Carrey did an awesome 'Grinch' for a new film -- looks like a must-see for the xmas season, if you have young children in your life.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 07:41:33 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: nee-one
Subject: Humor and General Interest OT thread
Message:
'The wages of sin are death; but after they're done taking out taxes,
it's just a tired feeling:'
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 07:46:38 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: n^1
Subject: Humor and General Interest OT thread
Message:
The wages of sin are high but you get your money's worth.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 04:15:42 (GMT)
From: ufo Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: trUe beeleevurZ inYewefoh
Subject: Humor and General Interest OT thread - UFO - 5 kb
Message:
From: Mike Fortson

I have been asked to post our sighting report on March 13, 1997. Here it is....

I awoke from a brief nap in my recliner and leaned over to tell my wife that I was going to bed. I glanced to the clock on the television, it was 8:30 pm. As I walked down the hallway to the master bedroom, I noticed the bedroom window was open. The weather was most pleasant this March 13 evening, temp. 75 degrees, clear and no wind (Jim Schnebelt, Fox 10 Weather). Typical Arizona spring evening.

As I pulled the window closed, my eyes were attracted to the three huge, bright white lights angled down and very low to the ground. 'Plane crash!' I thought. These lights were way too low and angled in a way nothing I know of could pull out of.

I ran down the hallway, grabbed my glasses off the bar and yelled to my wife, of 25 years, 'get outside right now!' Without hesitation she followed me out the back arcadia door to the edge of our patio. (I have timed this since and it took app. 8-10 sec.)

Standing at the edge of our patio, facing west, and looking north, confussion struck me. For there was no plane crash, but coming from the north and heading south was one, single structure that looked like a giant boomerrang. (the description of boomerrang, chevron (best), and V shaped object all apply).

This object stuck out like a sore thumb in the evening sky due to the fact we were looking north towards the Phoenix metro area, and the city lights gave us a grey background in which to view this huge black V shaped object. It was so low to the surface we could not believe it. I remember saying, 'what the hell is that?' The huge V shaped craft was moving slowly to the south.

At this point, still northwest of us, we both saw a 737 in landing approach pass over the object. The plane was coming in from the west heading east. The V shaped craft was heading south from the north. As the plane passed over the 737, I said, 'did you see that! Why didn't the plane get the hell out of there?' But it didn't. The pilot nor the planes computers saw nothing. (Just like the radars at Sky Harbor and Luke AFB. Nothing was detected.)

I would like to explain more on this incident. We live app. 23 miles ESE of Sky Harbor in Phoenix. Planes coming in to land (most of the time) will come out by us, bank to the north (left), proceed for app. 10-12 miles, bank left again (west) and land at Sky Harbor. This is normal landing pattern. I have talked to airline pilots, tower operators, and investigators about the altitude of planes coming in to land at Sky Harbor, at the point of the first bank north where we live. The altitude..1200'. The massive V shaped craft we saw was under 1200' altitude!

As the huge V shaped craft proceeded south, it was almost in front of us, when my eyes followed the left wing to it's end. We live 1/2 mile south of Chandler Blvd. The end of the wing was well past that and at least half way to Ray Rd. (1 1/2 miles north!) I remember saying to my wife, 'that son-of-a-bitch is a mile long! As it passed in front of us all we could see is the left wing. That's how low it was. At arm's length the object was at least 30'+ long. I reported it was app. 1 1/2 mile west of us, going down Alma School Rd. But the closest part of the huge V, the end of the left wing was much closer. Maybe within a 1/2 mile.

One thing that I remember the most is how this craft 'floated' app. 30-40 mph. There was no visual means of propulsion and absolutely no noise. The altitude and speed of the craft never changed.

On March 13, 1997, at app.8:31 pm mst., there was a bright bottom quarter moon setting in the western horizon. I said to the wife, 'we're gonna get more detail, look, it's going right into the light of the moon.' But instead of greater detail of this huge V shaped craft, what we saw still amazes us. As the front of the V shaped craft entered the light of the moon, this black chevron shaped object became tranlucent in bright light!

We could still see the bottom quarter moon thru the object, but instead of bright white, it (moon) was a dingy yellow. As the V shaped craft exited the bright moon, it became a solid black object again. We watched as the entire craft passed thru this. Seeing a solid object going into and coming out of, was black. But as the craft passed between us and the bright, white moon, it was translucent.

(Something about bright objects...witnesses who had this pass over their heads claim that as the craft passed between bright stars, it was like looking thru...water)

By the time the end (left wing still) was passing thru the light of the moon, the front of the craft was disappearing into the night sky to our south. It never changed course, speed, or altitude. Just faded off into the night sky to the south of us.

During the whole sighting we never moved our feet. We never considered getting a camera. We never thought of yelling for a neighbor. There was no question in our minds that what we saw was not of this Earth. Our total sighting was app. 1 minute and 45 seconds. Hope this is what you were looking for. You may post this if you wish.

Mike Fortson

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 20:02:34 (GMT)
From: effi Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: ufo Ji
Subject: Humor and General Interest - UFO - 10 kb (long)
Message:
This was an interesting exchange:

topic.36: Triangular UFO Sighting Survey

topic.36.24: (j) Tue 12:21

I've been thinking about that fellow Mike Fortson. So yesterday I called and talked to him for a while.

It only took a few minutes to track him down. He has moved further north, but he is still in Arizona. The conversation began:

'Fortson.'

'Ah, is this Mike Fortson?'

'That's me.'

'I may have the wrong Mike Fortson. Did you used to live near Chandler?'

'Yep, just moved up here two months ago.'

'Well, my name is Jerry *********; I am a retired electrical engineer; I live on the northern California coast and I have a hobby. I try to track down folks who have had remarkable UFO sightings.'

'Ha! Well I've had a few of those all right!'

'Is this a bad time to call? I don't want to intrude on what you are doing.'

'No -- fine, I've got time.'

'Well, as you know, your report of your sighting back in 1997 was posted on the internet.'

'March 13, 1997. Yes indeed.'

'I collect this type of thing, and I felt that your report was well written and quite compelling. I just wanted to talk to you personally and verify that you still feel that is an honest account of what happened. Have you had any other thoughts about what you might have seen?'

'Oh, that report is exactly what happened. Changed my life. Really -- I think about that night every day. I watch the skies a lot, hoping to see it again.'

'Let's see, it was around 8:30 as I remember. And it was low. How big did it seem to you?'

'The only words for it is 'incomprehensibly huge' -- it was just a staggering experience as it went over us. My wife and I were not afraid, though -- we had almost a joyous feeling.'

'And you still don't know what it was?'

'It could only have been an extraterrestrial. Look, I'm ex-airforce, I know aircraft. We got a perfectly clear view of it. It was from somewhere else, believe me!'

'You sound certain on that point!'

'Listen, on a scale of 10, this was a 9.99. The only thing that would be more convincing is the hand of God itself!'

---

We talked for 30 minutes or so. He was absolutely convincing. Since that time he and his wife have had five more sightings, of less impressive craft. They moved further north in the state to be closer to an area where sightings are common. In subsequent email he sent me a picture of a red orb that has shown up repeatedly. Here is a paragraph from one of his emails to me.

---

I understand your skepticism about this subject. A subject that is not supposed to exist. It does, however. One just needs to be in the right place at the right time. We were not concerned or even thought about ufo's or alien visitation craft prior to March 13, 1997. I have no problem today telling people, 'I don't believe in ufo's or aliens...I know they exist.'

---

Here is a perfect example of evidence that one cannot dismiss and cannot explain in mundane terms. By finding such people, and talking to them directly, I keep myself in touch with the reality of this overwhelming mystery.

topic.36.25: (c) Tue 18:25

> At arm's length the object was at least 30'+ long

wow that is huge

topic.36.26: (m) Tue 22:10

It sounds convincing. I'm so afraid of its being true that I start lists in my mind why it can't be happening.

topic.36.27: (c) Wed 04:09

I just can't believe the story -- no way. No freaking way. Something that size? No way. Prove it. Might as well say that Unicorns, Bigfoot, God, Easter Bunny and Santa all have their eyewitnesses. Hell. I'm sure they do.

I'd sooner you postulated we all really live in The Matrix. Really -- that'd be more attainable, all things considered.

topic.36.28: (j) Wed 16:13

Reports of objects in that sky that huge crop up fairly frequently. People often say, 'as long as two football fields' or words to that effect.

I believe the report. That's why I'm hooked: I cannot dismiss the evidence. This man actually had the experience he reported. The implications are staggering.

topic.36.29: (c) Wed 18:12

That's too big.

topic.36.30: (j) Wed 18:24

Of course.

topic.36.31: (c) Wed 22:38

Hehe.

topic.36.32: (j) Fri 13:19

This exchange reveals clearly the way people of differing temperaments deal with 'impossible' data.

Some cannot summon the equanimity of spirit required to tolerate the reality of utterly mysterious and unexplainable data. These people simply reject the data and for them the problem goes away.

Others are willing to accept the reality of the data, and can tolerate living in the presence of the mysterious. For them the problem, the awe and the fascination never go away.

In my world, the miraculous can happen.

topic.36.33: (c) Fri 15:25

When you can drag the burned-out hull of the miracle over to a barn in my world, we'll have a look at it and see how the miracle was done. :)


# ## ## ## #


In the above, I am '(c)' and my friend, Jerry, is '(j)'.


-And On Anand Ji

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 07:00:35 (GMT)
From: L. Ron. Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: ufo Ji
Subject: If you don't change channel during Dianetics advt
Message:
This is what happens to you:

aoaji89t.gif

Click on the link above to see the image.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:23:13 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: L. Ron. Anand Ji
Subject: If you don't change channel during Dianetics advt
Message:
Good Picture AoaJi!
Happy boy shot. Smiling in the face of the twisting all this life does to us.
Got to disagree on the asshole tag.
Everyone gets to be variable. even Jonn is not always as happy as he is when he is about to go to Hawaii.
OT Humor is welcome. The slutty ex girlfriend of Jim a character. I picked up when he invented her and then threw her out of his house. I have used her a number of times. Not in the way JIM used her of course!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 00:34:55 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: bill
Subject: If you don't change channel during Dianetics advt
Message:
Thank you, Bill. I appreciate it. I wasn't expecting any up-side, so I really appreciate it!
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:34:44 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: ne1
Subject: Auburn Virus
Message:
in e-mail...

Subject: Auburn Virus

You have just received the 'Auburn Virus'. As we ain't got no programming experience, this virus works on the honor system. Please delete all the files from your hard drive and manually forward this virus to everyone on your mailing list.

Thanks for your cooperation,

Auburn University Computer Science Dept

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:20:35 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: a0aji
Subject: er, excuse me, aoa...
Message:
Nice - but didn't you just ask Jim and cq to stop bickering for the simple reason they were using up precious forum space...? ;)
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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 20:24:50 (GMT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Nigel
Subject: er, excuse me, aoa...
Message:
The thing about the forum space -- I know people have different issues on this. Mine was (I have to say it, it no longer applies -- we have frames! here!) that it takes too damned long to retrieve a train of short exchanges solely between two people, of (perhaps!) no general interest to the rest of the people here.

I admit, I define 'of no general interest' to include what I characterize as bickering. I think bickering can go to e-mail; 'praise in public, criticize in private' -- that sort of thinking.

At the same time, I think that positive exchanges, no matter how off-topic, are fine, and never waste bandwidth. I believe they save bandwidth in the long run, by encouraging goodwill between participants.

I just didn't feel the way I handled myself was defensible -- not really. I was looking for a short-cut to resolution. I needed to express myself more clearly, and possibly (probably!) take it to e-mail, myself.

I was too lazy to do the requisite research; I was just really annoyed in that moment of what seemed the umpteenth retrieval of the same-old message (no new content, seemingly, just what I characterized as bickering). I recognize that is a variable sentiment, and on another day I might not even see it that way myself.

I like some OT discussion; I think it helps us to size each other up in another context, which helps to gain ground where we need to understand one another. The Internet has helped me far more than platitudes, because real people constantly call me on my dated attitudes.

And On Anand Ji

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:33:37 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Nigel
Subject: er, excuse me, aoa...
Message:
Right.

But... a) they aren't marking their posts as terriby off-topic and b) neither has acknowledged they're bickering and off-topic.

I am off-topic, though at this point it is not civil disobedience, nor is it done under a fake name.

I've always been an asshole. Apparently people doubt that.

But mostly -- I am late for supper, and hunger doesn't bring out the best in me. I kind of hate this fucking place, to be honest with you, Nigel.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 01:05:31 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Oy! Who said you you were an asshole?
Message:
Tell me who they are and I'll smack 'em one... (or at least call them rude names from a safe distance)

AOA, it's been a long while since you posted much here - and I used to love your long posts. I'd hate to scare you away with any good-forum-behaviour shit.

How ya doing?

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:55:32 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: He did. Don't question it.
Message:
aOaji has the nerve to suggest my (now INACTIVE, thanks to threads like this) last post to Jim was OFF topic??
What a fucking hypocrite aOaji is.

There was serious substance in my post to Jim. Now what? This takes precedence?

See what I mean about air-time, Nige?

It's not the broadcasting time, it's the fucking LISTENING time.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 21:42:25 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I heard you. -nt-
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 02:54:02 (GMT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Oye Como Va
Message:
Ah. I'm ok. This web interface screwed me over three times in the last 20 minutes.

Among other things, I mention (in all three lost posts) that there are online conversations happening that don't carry the same burdens this place does. I guess I come here expecting people to bring some of the best of what they've learned from other online conversations and systems, to ex-premie.org.

I think I'll keep expecting that, since I can't change being an ex-premie; it is one of the things that I am (regardless of what it is called).

FIX
The River
Uncensored BBS

Of the three, Uncensored is my favorite, lately. The River has a fee ($10/US/month) and the other two are free of charge. FIX has a good interactive 'chat' facility the other two lack. All three support telnet access, though as far as I know FIX is the only one that requires it (and provides a Java applet in lieu of telnet, for those who missed the Stone Age the first go-around).

Thanks for inquiring, Nigel.

-Chris
And On Anand Ji

p.s. an e-mail gets you my aliases on those systems

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 18:52:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: oh oh another one? anyone know about this....
Message:
This just in from our busyness manager. I have no trust in upper management ever since they paid Landmark Forum thousands for consulting. So I may be over-reacting here but:

Has anyone heard of this or been through this?:

Recently the Coordinating Group has been exposed to a book titled, 'Who Moved My Cheese' by Spencer Johnson (who co-authored The One Minute Manager).

and on and on strong editorial comments on why we should read and adopt this followed but I didn't want to post all that. After all they are talking about cheese!!

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 09:09:13 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Check with Sir Dave
Message:
Hi Selene,

I don't know if you came across the story, but Sir Dave is an expert on cheese security, having carried out this service at the highest level known to humanity. I believe he was awarded the honorary title of 'Guardian of the Lord's Cheese.'

Anth the blue mould

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 15:26:08 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It's my favorite post from forum
Message:
I actually found it the other day on one of my drives at work.
I did tink of Dave when I read her memo :)
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:04:04 (GMT)
From: Cheese person
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: oh oh another one? anyone know about this....
Message:
It wasn't me who moved their cheese, honestly. I was standing by the fridge all day remembering holy name, ready to give my life for that chunk of dairy curd.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 17:53:35 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Cheese person
Subject: I know you were but
Message:
I think you inspired a whole new management tool Cheese person.
BTW I started a story on AG and never finished it and I'm embarrassed now. Can you delete it?
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 20:52:01 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: cheese moving OT, yes, but...
Message:
...but related to the topic at hand in that a bunch
of people are getting all excited about next to
nothing (Paul sums it up pretty well below.)

I was exposed to it in September just before starting
a new school year. (I'm a public school teacher.)

Educrats have a pathetic history of jumping on the
latest fadwagon. So, yeah, I had to sit through
a dramatic re-enactment of that who-moved-the-
cheese thing and then talk with a partner about what kind of mouse I was, etc.

I can't say it had a dramatic effect on my
particular organization. I, for one, had
completely forgotten about the whole thing.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:11:44 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: ottabee who CUT the cheese, sounds like -nt-
Message:
-nt-
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 20:39:49 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene, the 'cheese' phenomena is just the
Message:
latest installment in the management initiative of the month club. There is also an accompanying video (animated) that I have seen. The story attempts to provide an amazingly dumbed down version of change management. You will be amazed to discover that people react to change differently- some fast, some slow and that it is better to be proactive than reactive. that's about it. I'm just sorry that someone else beat me to this organizational pet rock.

Paul

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 20:25:07 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: oh oh another one? anyone know about this....
Message:
Its a followup to 'The Goal' by Eli Goldblatt based on Flow manufacturing, I have tThe Goal, haven't got thru it yet. Lots of manufacturing types rave about it.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 18:55:31 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: oops I suppose this is OT
Message:
'xcuse me.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 02:16:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: thanks to all
Message:
I knew I had a cheese job but this has given it new meaning.
Thanks for the info. :(
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:09:12 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Sheesh! Management is still into this stuff?
Message:
Back before I became a priest I was a Purchasing Agent for Silicon Valley companies, and each one was going through some goofy QT program. I remember one where I was told that 'Zero Defects means meeting the requirements.' I said, 'zero defects means no defects. If you are going to play with language like that, why don't we just say 'sofa bed means meeting the requirements.' Needless to say, I was very popular with the management of THAT company! I don't envy you at all!
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 15:24:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: ours is
Message:
Along with buzz words of the month / semester: the cool hip thing to say this time is portal. Last semester it is pedagogy.
I called in sick today.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 16:56:29 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Sick is right! (ot)
Message:
Selene, I know I've said this before, but YUCCCKKK! I don't know if they do this at my univ., but they don't do it in my department, which I appreciate very much. I can always get you a job application :).

Love you -
Katie

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 17:51:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I've pretty much had it actually
Message:
I'm writing a proposal to drop down to the minimum required hours to keep the health and other benefits. enough is enough I have been putting up with these stupid trends since at least 1995 when they got the first religion, TQM. about 10 years after coprporate america had discontinued it.

And IT is the worst of the lot! Always jumping on the newest crappy computing tool out there just to get an automated gradebook or one other feature and guess who ends up modifying and supporting the dumb crap?
oh oh I'm ranting. Thanks for putting up with it.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:28:55 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Reprise re Terry Yingling letter to Dettmers
Message:
For some reason, this post stayed blank until it fell into the inactive. So, I am reprinting it here. It's my response to the Terry Yingling letter to Michael Dettmers, and his response thereto.

Great response, Michael. Very powerful. When I read Terry Yingling's letter, I at first wondered if it was a joke. It sounded just like some of the sarcastic 'Elan Vital' messages that parody that organization that have appeared here. Terry, what were you THINKING in writing that? Every time Elan Vital says anything, they make it so much worse for themselves. One interesting thing I noticed. Terry said:

From what you appear to be saying, you are assuming the threat came from someone representing Elan Vital or Maharaji in some way. Though I feel saddened that it has come to a point where you could think this, I would like to assure you that the message that you received does not come from Elan Vital or Maharaji nor would it comply with any policies of either of them.

Note that Terry nowhere says she is sorry, is 'saddened,' or has any concern whatsoever that you were actually threatened the way you were. No, she is only 'saddened' that you might think Elan Vital or Maharaji had something to do with it. Interesting, isn't it?

And there Elan Vital goes again with its 'policies.' Man, it appears that organization just institutes policies and that takes care of everything. It's just so impressive the way they do that. Maybe it's because of the way they work under leaderless teamwork and in synchronization all the time. Yes, that must be it.

Terry, if you are reading this, has Elan Vital communicated in any way to its 'volunteers' or anyone else that the kind of treatening behavior inflicted on Michael is improper and will not be tolerated? Have you made any attempt to discover who Bill Murray is and in any way tell him that what he is doing is in violation of Maharaji's 'policies?' Are Maharaji's 'policies' that you claim such a threat violates written down anywhere, and may we review them, to understand what his 'policies' in this regard actually are? Has Maharaji ever spoken at any Elan Vital 'event' in which he said making threats against people who criticize either himself or Elan Vital, violates his policies?

And when is Elan Vital going to stop implying that any investigative failure on Elan Vital's part for sexual molestation of children that went on in Elan Vital perpetrated by Jagdeo, is the victim's fault? What would having a meeting with Susan, which you claim she didn't want, do to bring Jagdeo to justice and prevent him from sexually molesting more little girls or in furthering the investigation of Jagdeo that you have a moral obligation to conduct? What does that have to do with Elan Vital's obligations? And has Elan Vital made any attempt to find other victims of Jagdeo's moslestations? Has it made any request that others come forward? Has Maharaji talked to Jagdeo to satisfy himself that he isn't molesting the children of his 'students' in violation of his and Elan Vital's 'policies?'

Finally, Terry, I remember you from the early 80s when you were traveling around the Western US, with the infamous ashram-inquisitor, David Smith as his 'assistant.' I remember how you used to complain to me and others that David Smith was so difficult to work with ('torturing' was the word you used), and how difficult it all was. But it seems you got through it okay after all. You were a very nice person, though, and I liked you. You never seemed to me to be the kind of person who would try to cover-up the wrong-doing within an organization you were a part of. I hope that isn't the case now.

Joe


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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 18:14:13 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Reprise re Terry Yingling letter to Dettmers
Message:
Hi Joe,

Thanks for your above post and for bringing up the Jagdeo crimes. Just because Jagdeo is old now doesn't mean he still isn't interested in little girls--that would be a myth about pedophiles.

That's all for now.

Best, Cynthia

P.S.: Off Topic: I was wondering if you've heard anything about the horrible backlash against the Civil Unions law that was passed in Vermont this year. It's gotten beyond ugly; all the ignorant bigots have crawed out of their holes and have been saying horrific things through the media, bulk mailings, and letters to the editor, not to mention that the republican opponent to Gov.Dean is a right wing bigot herself. Politically, it's wild here. Sends chills up my spine. I can't wait till Nov. 8th!

Email me if you'd like...sylviecyn@yahoo.com.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:03:55 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: The Vermont Political Scene
Message:
I did hear that some of the Republican state legislators who voted in favor of the Civil Unions bill were defeated in their Republican primaries by real right-wingers, but I also heard that it means the Democrats might well pick up their seats. I also heard that a number of proponents of the bill won their primaries. I have a lot of admiration for people who do the right thing, knowing that they might be punished for it politically.

I think the Christian Coalition and others, nationally are focusing on Vermont because Vermont was the first state to pass a Civil Unions bill. So, they really want to make a big issue out of it to get it overturned and to dissuade any other state from trying to do the same thing. That's what I think.

But maybe there will be a backlash to the backlash. I know how admirable it was when Howard Dean said early on that he would sign the bill. I think that made a big difference. But I can't imagine that a right-winger would be able to beat him. Have ther been polls saying how Dean is doing?

I just wish Bernie Sanders was running against Jim Jeffords. I think Jeffords is a good guy, but Bernie would be great in the Senate.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 04:27:06 (GMT)
From: owoo ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: nebuddi
Subject: readers: this post ^^^^ can now be read/tnx FA nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 23:23:21 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA empty post ^^^
Message:
empty post

Joe -:- Reprise re Terry Yingling letter to Dettmers -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 13:28:55

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:08:43 (GMT)
From: Forum Adimistrator
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: FA empty post ^^^
Message:
The software glitch is beyond the FA's control, but thanks for flagging it up and I hope forum posters will continue to do when it happens. I think Brian is working on it.

Forum Administrator

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:23:03 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The continuing deposition of Michael Dettmers
Message:
Michael,

I hope you aren't getting the feeling there is a deposition going on here. But I think you also see that there has been so little information available about Maharaji and his cult to those of us who were so dedicated to him and to it, that there are a lot of unanswered questions. I realize you don't have answers to everything, but your perspective is very helpful even if you don't have an answer.

I have a question about a major change in Elan Vital and Maharaji that I saw beginning in late 1975 and continuing until about 1977, when things REALLY changed.

As an ashram premie in 1975, I lived in the rather austere, out-of-the-way ashram in San Antonio, called 'The City of Love and Light' which also was a 'novitiate' for the ashrams. Actually, I knew Peter from that period, who was also there. Also, premies who were approved for application to the ashram were sent there for 'training,' basically, they lived the ashram schedule and worked jobs or had 'service' in whatever way they were told. We had a car wash called 'autopia' which never made any money, and a farm, which didn't either, where premies were put to work. Most others had jobs.

It was also a place where ashram premies from other communities who were having trouble (i.e., they were getting into 'relationships' or didn't want to follow the rules, etc., were sent as a kind of reform school.) There were about 150 people living there in a big hotel in downtown San Antonio, and Bill Patterson was the coordinator of the place.

Anyhow, I hadn't seen Maharaji since Hans Jayanti in 1974 until a year later at Hans Jayanti in Orlando in 1975. Then, we started getting all these directives from 'Denver' that we should engage in organizational and educational 'workshops' and that we should start thinking of Maharaji as a 'humanitarian leader.' About the same time, another directive came from 'Denver' that we should use the 'educational process' as a basis for propogation. [This was obviously put together by somebody who majored in education in college, but it was an extremely half-baked idea and was abandoned fairly soon.] We even went to old peoples' homes and orphanages and did 'service' to the community, as a manifestation of the experience of 'knowledge.' It was actually kind of confusing, but at the same time kind of liberating because some individual and group creativity was released and the uptight ashram premies seemed to be more expressive and open as individuals.

This continued into 1976, the infamous 'space out' year, which I now refer to as the short-lived 'Renaissance' in Elan Vital. In the Summer of 1976, Maharaji did a US Tour, and I attended the program in Denver. Just 6 months before, Maharaji was wearing his crown and Krishna outfit and we had full-board, toe-kissing darshan. But in Denver in 1976, Maharaji just wore a suit, and instead of feet-kissing, he had a kind of receiving line, in which we just filed past and kind of bowed, or something, I can't recall exactly.

COLL was closing down, and I was being transferred to another ashram. Barbara Kolodney was in charge of personnel in Denver, and she tried to talk me out of staying in the ashram. She actually strongly suggested that I move out. There seemed to be this concerted effort to close down the ashrams, even though Maharaji, at least as I recall, never said anything about it. I stayed in, but lots of other people left.

This coincides with the Bob Mishler interview, in which he said he, and others I guess during this period, were trying to get Maharaji to get away from presenting himself as the incarnation of God, and to gradually 'deprogram' his followers from believing he was, which many, many premies, including me, did believe. Apparently, Maharaji went along with this for awhile, based on his behavior during that US tour, but then said to Mishler at some point, as premies were leaving the ashrams and donations were drying up, 'what about me?' (according to Mishler) and started to backpeddle, when he realized that premies would stop worshipping him, and stop giving him money, requiring him to cut back on his lavish lifestyle. So, he made a reversal, and Mishler resigned. (Again, according to Mishler.)

But from my viewpoint, beginning in late 1976 and thereafer for about 6 years, EVERYTHING changed. Maharaji started wearing Krishna outfits at every program, and he started having many programs, month after month. Darshan galore. Maharaji starting talking about almost nothing but devotion and surrender. He even stopped talking about the practice of knowledge, and instead emphasized that this was a path of DEVOTION, not a path of realization. He criticized the space out of 1976 and people started moving back into the ashrams, and Maharaji openly encouraged it. He also said that 'service' as part of the practice of knowledge, was only service to 'him' and not service to humanity. So, all the 'humanitarian' stuff premies had been doing was summarily stopped.

It just went on from there, and, in retrospect, it was incredibly bizarre. Maharaji started wearing really bizarre outfits, like pearl malas, giving really HEAVY satsang, and according to people like Randy Prouty, Maharaji wanted every available premie to move into the ashram and devote 100%. And people like Randy, with my help I hasten to add, made concerted efforts to get people to do that. [Recall this is the time when you and others, including me, probably, were giving 'satsang' that 'knowledge' was nothing more than a means or an excuse to surrender and devote to Maharaji. This was the mindset then, and it was directly, and repeatedly, stated and reinforced by almost everything Maharaji said and did. By the way, Marolyn was also a MAJOR advocate for this, and gave satsang prominantly about this being the purpose of a devotee's life. I assume she believed it herself. And of course, there was Mahatma Jagdeo.] Maharaji churned out a bunch of Initiators, who didn't have much to do, because there were hardly any aspirants.

I see the pinnacle of this as that Christmas Satsang in 1979, when Maharaji said that if we didn't devote to him we were going to hell, he criticized and ridiculed the ties we might have to our biological families, and said that we had no choice but to constantly strive to dedicate our lives to him. [I recall having nausea after hearing that satsang, mostly because I didn't think I had the dedication to be able to do that, not because I thought what he said was wrong, again, this is the cult mindset.]

Then, of course, there was the Boeing 707 debacle, the endless demand for ever more money, and always Maharaji getting more and more lavish stuff. Propogation came to a grinding halt, because Elan Vital looked like the most bizarre, raving personality cult you could imagine, and very few people were interested. So, the organization really turned in on itself. When I look back on that period now, I see that period as very, very dark, suffocating almost. It was extremely restrictive, with little or no creativity among the premies. Where there had been music, theater, publications in the years previous, and especially in 1976, now there was none of that, and the publications were just Maharaji, Maharaji, Maharaji, with garish, awful, full-color pictures, of Maharaji, who for some reason got really, really FAT during that period, to the point where his cheeks barely fit under that crown.

Anyhow, I have always interpreted what happened during that period was Maharaji's reaction to what happened in 1976. He got really concerned about what would happen if the premies started thinking for themselves and questioning his role and devotion to him. And he took it to an extreme.

So, Michael, if I hear what you are saying, Maharaji was directly involved in all of the ways things were done, and apparently was directly involved in deciding to do things this way. I know that during this period you tried to get Maharaji to tone it down, and change his ways, which he eventually did, but I guess I have a few questions.

Do you have any idea why Maharaji got so extreme during that period and what his motivation was? Do you have any idea why he eventually changed? Finally, since the shameful Elan Vital FAQs make it very clear that Maharaji is now very embarrassed about that period, and doesn't want it to be known (which is part of the reason talking about it on the Internet troubles him), do you think that Maharaji's self-delusion is so great that he really does blame others for what happened then?

When you had your disagreements with Maharaji about how he was presenting himself, what were his arguments for not wanting to make the changes you were suggesting? Did he have arguments, or did he just not want to talk about it? Did anyone else around Maharaji take his or your side? Did anybody else leave his staff as a result of the unwillingneww to get him to change?

Joe

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:23:04 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: In San Antonio
Message:
Was there a guy there buy the name of Bob Neader? Got sent there because his little head would'nt listen to his big head.
He's hit on me a couple of times, said I would have made a good premie.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 01:57:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Great discussion, guys -- great questions
Message:
Yeah, the bleakest period in my life was that post '76 tiem in the cult. As you know, Joe, because I've mentioned it before, I think Maharaji did his major about-face at the Essen, Germany International Coordinators conference which, I think, was in the fall of '76. I remember Gary Ockendon, then Canadian Coordinator, coming back and doing a tour to spread the news -- the Lord was back! At the conference, Maharaji chastised the crowd, albeit in good humour, to bring it all back home. What was it all about anyway, if not devotion? What was Knowledge but a vehicle to strengthen and express our love for Him?

And God did he punish us! Suddenly, we were all suspect reprobates. We'd dipped our toes back in the maya, left ashrams, flouted the ashram lifetsyle, letter AND spirit, found new voices of open, public, unabashed chit chat. It was as if the workshop era, the first 'Knowledge Lite' era, the softening cult demands (accompanied by matching reduced expecations. No one talked about 'realizing Knowledge' anymore. God realization was an endangered species of an idea.), which seemed to begin in the summer of '74 at Guru Puja in Amherst, in the States at least (Canada being a bit slower and more conservative) had all been a test. And all but a few real die-hards, the one or two ashramies who did NOT go to a disco once or twice, had flunked. Devotees? We called ourselves devotees? Ha!

So, yeah, Maharaji sucked us back in with a fairly sweet entreaty to rekindle the innocent joy and enthusiasm of a few years prior. Those who'd been around since, say '73, wanted that. We wanted to all-consuming excitement we'd felt back when we literally believed that everyone was going to get Knowledge, that everyone was coming, sooner, rather than later, to His Holy Lotus Feet.

Maharaji wanted it too, I think. But, as has been his pattern all along, he had no capacity whatsoever to take responsibilty for our apparent 'loss of direction' (on the cult's own terms, of course). So he scapegoated us -- well, our 'minds' to be more precise -- like a real motherfucker. Maharaji had caught us trying to steal our lives back. Thus, we were all convicted thieves and couldn't be trusted to be alone anymore. Satsang shifted from being a Hindu canned inspirational trip to a combination re-education camp and moment-by-moment mental alternative. Why spend a moment by yourself when you can park your body in front of a brother or sister (or mahatma or video, if you're lucky) who'll remind you a) that your mind is your deadly enemy; b) that you're hopeless to resist it; and c) that Maharaji was pulling you away from your mind moment-by-moment if you could only open up and let him?

Maharaji seemed to disdain the petty lives we'd started to build in the year prior. To prove the point and test out mettle he 'showered us with so much grace' by holding that series of '19 Day programs', doing short one or two-day sessions in a about half a dozen American towns, forcing us to quit whatever jobs we had, go crazily into debt and basically thumb our noses at the world. Who were we? We were Guru Maharaj Ji's lovers and if you don't like it, world, you can just fuck off. That was the attitude.

I started feeling so miserable.

But the scariest thing of all was the question of my future. Here I was in the ashram. So what? Was I going to 'realize Knowledge' someday and cross over into that infinite bliss I still thought Maharaji dwelled in? I started to wonder as it seemed like I -- and everyone e;se as far as I could tell -- had, at best, plateaued. The batteries had been charged and drained so often by then that it didn't seem to matter how long you left them on the charger. We had long, long, tedious, brain-fucking marathon satsangs. Sometimes we ashramies would set aside the whole weekend to just sit in front of each other and sing His glory. Sometimes the community got in on it. All of this was fashioned on the Initiator Training Program model as we heard (horror?) stories of packs of would-be initiators stuck in a house in Malibu literally for months on end, doing nothing morning-to-night but you-know-what.

So I wondered, is that what life has in store for me? I never did actually apply to be an initiator. Why? I started to feel some real resistance as in 'I want a life! Please, someone, anyone, get me out of here!' This didn't stop me from giving satsang though. How'd that all work? I guess you had to be there. Fuck, I don't know. We were confused. It was a cult, don't forget.

And there, all along, was Maharaji squeezing his honey, smoking dope, enjoying that magnificent view from the top of Anacapa and .... LISTENING TO PETER FRAMPTON?????

Ha hahaha ... I guess I won after all! Peter Frampton?

Naw, just kidding. I wish it was that easy.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:30:52 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji had caught us trying to steal our lives
Message:
back.

God Jim,

That sums it ups. Great post.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 19:37:38 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA - empty posts
Message:
Joe -:- Reprise re Terry Yingling letter to Dettmers -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 13:28:55

a0aji -:- The continuing deposition of Michael Dettmers -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 15:33:03

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 19:50:05 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Glitch in the software?
Message:
The above post got cut off mid-sentence, and the one above that is blank. Maybe they will show up at some point? Is this getting to be a serious problem?
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 23:35:09 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Glitch in the software?
Message:
Take II:

>> So, Michael, if I hear what you are saying, Maharaji was directly involved in all of the ways things were done, and apparently was directly involved in deciding to d

Joe <<

Looks like a problem on your end, Joe, since the signature appears below the cut-off sentence (it wouldn't be there if your post was simply cut-off short). Also, my post got fixed (presumably by the FA).

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:03:12 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Joe
Subject: Glitch in the software?
Message:
Well, it has been an ongoing problem for the week or so I've been visiting since my last appearance here. It is evident the FA fixes empty posts and makes them appear. Short posts, I don't know about.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 19:33:03 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Joe
Subject: The continuing deposition of Michael Dettmers
Message:
Great post.

I was an aspirant beginning summer, 1976; and Barbara was my Initiator in January, 1978. She was a very interesting woman. I'd heard about COLL through the premie culture; the name alone was enough to foster an interest.

I got completely out of DLM and premie culture, some time in late '78 or early '79 I think; I saw Maharaj Ji wearing the Krishna crown and outfit several times, from Dec '76 to at least early '78. It was totally about that; I remember thinking I hope he doesn't stumble while on stage because 'With one hand I create the Universe and with the other I destroy it.'

We sang Arti in absolutely the most sappy manner, especially in local (Hartford) nightly, 7:30 pm satsang. I remember in Orlando (1977 probably) that I was disappointed in how Arti came off -- I'm pretty sure it was Orlando. I remember wondering if there wasn't a different version of Arti; I was pretty obsessed with Arti, actually. I mean, people bothered to clarify butter, just to make the right sort of ghee for Arti! There was always charnamrit (sp?), usually flowers such as gardenias, at the altar (which is what it was called). And -- this always kills me now -- a perfectly good, empty chair set out, for Maharaj Ji, sometimes on a raised platform, like a throne!

It was totally about Maharaj Ji, so that's where I question Blue Max' assertion that he could then take Maharaj Ji at his word (that it was about the techniques and 'the' knowledge).

Satsang, Service, and Meditation -- if you were a total idiot, you would still have noticed this phrase repeated more than anything else. I'd say it was split 50/50 between this 'leg' and the outright devotional stuph. Lord of the Universe, Spread This Knowledge and Teach Me Devotion were sung constantly. Darshan dreams were a regular conversational staple; almost erotic in intensity at times.

A handful of films were regularly exhibited (this was just before the first video tapes were circulated, which I also saw). There was the one of Maharaji's wedding to Durga Ji; and then a tearful satsang by Durga Ji, sitting on (or near) a throne with a lot of flowers, telling us about mother and wife and how she's our proxy (which again, seemed semi-erotic). It seemed like the more Lord-like he was presented, the better it was received -- I remember certain premies actually cried from the 'beauty' of experiencing the exhibition of this stuph together as a community.

Vine of Love, Lord of the Universe, Power of Love, Satguru Has Come -- they were all exhibited in the satsang hall. Any resonable premie assumed that Bill Patterson (for instance) felt 'the same way we do' about Maharaj Ji's divinity, role in our lives, etc.

I barely recognize Mr. Dettmers' name from that same period, if at all. I don't think his 'image and likeness' were used, the was Bill's was. There was often a parade of Initiators giving (what I called in my head) 'warm-up satsang' at festivals; Michael may have spoken once or twice, but I didn't register his identity. Then again, all that was reinforcement stuph; we had fans of, say, Charnanandji in our community, who would speak of him; so when Charnanandji stood on stage and spoke, I paid attention. Jagdeo I knew, but only by looks; his satsangs (kind of rare) were not memorable. OTOH I was kind of into the Shri Maharaj Ji thing (read lots of his old satsangs) and so Jagdeo was of interest as a side-effect of being in Shri Hans' court, as was Charnanandji.

In reply to:

Michael,

I hope you aren't getting the feeling there is a deposition going on here.

--- snip! ---

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:55:38 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I would love to read Michael's answer too
Message:
I was in the cult from 1975-1979, and I saw a lot of these changes too, and have always wondered what was behind them and what the truth was about why they occured. I look forward to reading your perspective on this time in the cult's history.

I am especially intrigued by the move toward normalcy in 1976. Why did that happen?

And then the 1977 rebound, any insight into the forces behind the move to a more intense devotional phase than ever before? I left the cult in the midst of that phase, 1979, the Mala dance in Philly was one of my 'drips'.

But these cult changes had a huge impact on my life. I was nothing if not malleable. For example, my interpetation on 1976 was that now it was okay for me to 'like' school. I was 14 and decided that since we were now becoming normal I would enroll in honors classes and be a good student. I got really into school and excelled. I have told this story before but it is one of the turning points for me. The changes in 1977 back to heavy devotion also meant the end of being a good student for me. I had all these books from the courses I was taking and proudly brought them to Newt Gay who was the community coordinator. I was genuinely proud of my schoolwork and thought he would congratulate me. Instead, being the good devotee he was and reflecting the 1977 change, he told me my books were 'mindy' and really put me down for spending all this time with schoolwork instead of service. My response; I dropped the program. My Lord was of course more important than school.

I am not blaming Newt, he was only being a good premie. But that is what happened. But I always wonder what might have been if the 1976 humanitarian leader period had not chaged to the heavy devotional period, and how my life might have been different. So any insights you have as to why these changes occured would be of great interest to me.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 17:57:34 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I would love to read Michael's answer too
Message:
Hi All,

Susan, you were 14?? and the community coordinator leaned on you to focus more on goomraji? God, that's terrible.

At least I was of a majority age and living on my own, (not in the ashram yet).

Thanks for the posts.

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:46:23 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: glad you were interested
Message:
yep, that is what happened. I harbor no ill will toward Newt though. I think he was genuinely trying to 'help' me. This is what he thought a good premie should do, and he was guiding me toward being a better premie. I mean, school vs the Living Lord, where is the choice here? Newt actually somehow found the money to send me to Rome in 1977, on DLM's tab, so he must have liked me, it was just in the premie value system, he was trying to give me 'guidance'

That was actually one of the reasons I had a lot of hope that Randy Prouty would tell the truth about the Jagdeo issue, premie or not. He seemed to really care about me. He used to help me with my homework, and DID encourage me to do well in school, even though he was such a hard core devotee. I think he saw it as investing in myself would help me 'serve' Rawat better later, but at least he thought I was worth educating. Randy came to my mom's house when I was 16 or so and talked her into letting me move into the ashram. He also I think got the approval directly from Rawat for me to move in when I was underage. I suppose too, that some of the premies there might have resented supporting a high school student in the ashram ( I had no job ). This is of course why I just cannot believe he 'forgot' about what I told him about Jagdeo, he knew me really well. I moved out of the ashram very soon after moving in. I missed my mom and the premies there scared me sometimes. They also were kind of nice to me too, I recall they had a very wonderful 16th or 17th birthday party for me at the ashram. I was like the mascot sort of. Weird memories.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 18:27:27 (GMT)
From: Rani
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: 14
Message:
No matter what age we are, people have tended to 'lay trips' on each other -- especially when it comes to something as serious as 'God realization.' It is a sad byproduct of every belief and every religion as far as I can tell. Being older helps one to deal with it. For this reason I am glad that Maharaji changed the minimum age for receiving Knowledge to 18. In this way he helped take a lot of pressure off of a lot of kids who would have otherwise been pushed by their parents.

I'm all for what Maharaji offers, but because of the tendency to lay trips on one another I cannot see any good coming of community groups and gatherings. It is an area too personal and too sensitive and a person really needs to be left alone in their own process. I love to watch Maharaji videos and I love to practice, and I am very grateful to Maharaji for his invaluable help. However I cannot stand much of anything the 'teams' of people have put together around Maharaji and his message. I really believe Maharaji is offering the greatest thing, and yet I also cannot stand all the 'trips' past and present. I would hate to see his work slowed down in this world, because it is something very healing for many people. At the same time, I would love to see his 'organizations' disappear! How dare they try to tell me how to act and what to say?

Yet, 99.9% of what Maharaji has had to say in video events has been very helpful to me, as is the practice of his Knowledge.

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 04:57:59 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Rani
Subject: hey Rani,what part of the 99.99% do you like best?
Message:
Rani-I am just curious, as to your statement that 99.99% of what m says in the videos helps you practice the meditation...

Could you tell us just a few (maybe 3) things that m says in the videos that help you?

Are those things that you could not find anywhere else?

Do you intend to watch videos every week for the rest of your life, to get those wise tips from m? This is what he expects, you know..

Just curious

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 20:33:22 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Rani
Subject: 14
Message:
I met a kid at a knowledge interview, he was not allowed to receive knowledge because he was not quite 18. I told him that I was not allowed to received K either. He told me that his father worked for M and had already taught him about K and he had in fact been practicing it for some years, and that it was really 'no big deal'. He said his father had told him to go and ask for it at a K interview so that he could receive it from M. This way when he came to work for 'the operation' as he called it, it would be understood that he had received K from M and not from someone else at an early age. He was a nice young man, very good looking and extremely intelligent for a kid not quite 18. Already he was lying to his master and his disciples. He learned well, Like master like aspiring premies.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 19:57:53 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Rani
Subject: My response to Rani
Message:
Dear Rani,

I highly suggest you read some of the information in the DLM/EV papers; the link is at the top of this page.

The last time I saw a video of m was over a year ago in a live feed. In it he was very cranky about everyone not being 'grateful' for what they had received from him. He also said that he had fulfilled his promise to his Shri Maharaj Ji--to spread knowledge around the world, therefore he was satisfied that he had completed his 'agya' to HIS guru. He also mentioned entering phase II. I assume completing his agya was Phase I. He was pretty vague but he spoke about training programs and teams, etc. In addition, he spoke, swore (a later edited video) was in a vile mood which I had never, ever seen him exhibit in public.

I have come to understand that goomraji's failures are his own. From afar and up close, his ego is so large that he cannot tolerate anything going wrong in his 'organization.' He blames other people for all of his failures, while exhibiting what I now see as a great facade of kindness, compassion, and wisdom. I use these words loosely, because he is far from kind, compassionate or wise. Things have slowed down for him because so many old timers have rejected him outright as a fraud.

If you think you can brave it, take a look at the wealth of information available on this website. I hope you do--you may gain an understanding of where the exes here are coming from.

The backlash from this and other websites (which were closed down by EV) is probably taking up a bit of his time. That's called DAMAGE CONTROL!!

As far as minors are concerned, I have learned in my life that I am a responsible adult and must behave accordingly. Has goomraji done that? No. I might have been able to forgive him for his actions and theft of premies' lives while he was a minor, but he's been an adult for quite some time now, and it's time for him to fess up and be an adult. (I don't expect this, it's just what I believe he should do.)

I wish you the best,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 23:36:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rani
Subject: You know what that tells me about you?
Message:
99.9% of what Maharaji has had to say in video events has been very helpful to me

That can only mean that you're not that bright.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:09:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Rani
Subject: Knowledge and the age of majority
Message:
For this reason I am glad that Maharaji changed the minimum age for receiving Knowledge to 18. In this way he helped take a lot of pressure off of a lot of kids who would have otherwise been pushed by their parents.

I strongly suspect that the only reason this change was made was because Maharaji and Elan Vital were being sued by the parents of underaged kids who were revealed knowledge and may have had some kind of emotional problems thereafter. I am personally aware of at least one such lawsuit in Florida in the late 7Os.

Yet, 99.9% of what Maharaji has had to say in video events has been very helpful to me, as is the practice of his Knowledge.

That's great that you are enjoying yourself. Were you around when Maharaji used to say, both in videos and live, that the purpose of your life was to devote it to him, and to surrender your life to him? Did you also find that helpful?

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 18:52:20 (GMT)
From: Rani
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Correction
Message:
I must correct myself. To be honest, I would have to say 99%, not 99.9% of what Maharaji says on videos is very helpful to me.

The other more important correction is this: When I said 'How dare they tell me how to act and what to say?' this was misleading. More accurately, they try to tell us how _not_ to act and what _not_ to say.' However, to me this is the same thing as being told how to act and what to say -- only coming from a more discreet (yet less honest) perspective.

When I first learned of Maharaji many years ago, a quote on a flyer said I had to be sincere. I took him for his word on that and I am sincere. Why do I see so much lack of sincerity among those who surround Maharaji? I suspect it is much like with any other great leader. Some of the most insincere and self-serving collect around him for their own purposes.

I know that a lot of people that post on and read this forum want to put so much blame on Maharaji for everything that goes wrong with all the people involved. But that would be like blaming President Clinton for the acts of all the politicians in the United States (I gag at the thought of all the travesties there!!).

Yet Maharaji's message, when I hear him -- which is very often -- is so untainted when it comes to practical advice and inspiration on living in this world and being fulfilled. No matter what craziness is going on in Elan Vital or elsewhere, he continues to give me that lifeline to sanity. That, in itself, is absolutely phenomenal. And it's enough to prove to me that he is true, all the other s**t notwithstanding.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 04:24:00 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Rani
Subject: Practical Advice?
Message:
'Yet Maharaji's message, when I hear him -- which is very often -- is so untainted when it comes to practical advice and inspiration on living in this world and being fulfilled.'

I must tell you, Rani, that sentence sounds so much like those who wave a Bible in one's face and say 'everything you need to know in life is right in here!' I always tell them, 'I doesn't tell you how to change a fuse!' Tell me, what would someone who has lived the life M has lived really know about living in the real world? I don't think he has even visited it.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 23:30:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rani
Subject: I LOVE premie 'reasoning' -- an oxymoron?
Message:
I know that a lot of people that post on and read this forum want to put so much blame on Maharaji for everything that goes wrong with all the people involved. But that would be like blaming President Clinton for the acts of all the politicians in the United States (I gag at the thought of all the travesties there!!).

Is this your first analogy? It kind of looks that way. Care to try again?

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 20:29:04 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Rani
Subject: Rani, just how helpful is the Master's Wisdom?
Message:
Dear Rani, You know, the funny thing is that I would have agreed with your statement about the value of maharaji's speeches a year ago, except I probably would have accepted 100% as a reasonable percentage.

I've thought a lot about it in recent times, and actually I'm quite annoyed about it. Here's an experiment for you:

Don't view a video, don't listen to a thing he says for a month.
When you are making decisions, little and big, during this period, and you think 'what would Maharaji do', pull back and make the decision without reference to him or his wisdom.
Then, go to a video event, sit at the back, watch the premies objectively, watch their responses to the video, and then, instead of trying to get what you want out of watching the video, try to analyse what he is saying and what sort of response it is eliciting from you.

The results can be surprising, and I must say, somewhat distressing in the short term. Please, don't keep blaming the premies involved, the next thing you'll do is decide you have to help him instead, and, as someone else warned, madness that way lies.

Rgds, Lesley, now, after 27 years of involvement in a religious cult, a much relieved ex.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:47:15 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Rani
Subject: Correction
Message:

Take a stroll through this website , when you've got the time , & then come back & tell us what you think of Him , rather than what you think of You in relation to Him.

I appreciate that you might consider the 2 things to be the same , but they are not.

Why are the people in Elan Vital so crazy ?

They've got the same Knowledge as you , who isn't crazy.

Would you go crazy youself , therefore , if you got more involved with M's work ?

Don't you think about these things ?

I never did either , I must admit , but then I never knew anything about him of any substance until I came here.

Beware : if you're genuine you'll have your illusions shattered (a painful process) , & if not you'll get seriously fucked over by posting here.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:33:36 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Rani
Subject: very common defense mechanism of premies
Message:
the blaming of all the problems of the organization on the people around Rawat.

It is a bizarre way to think though. Isn't Rawat so supposedly wise and all knowing etc? How come he is such a perpetual victim of all these flunkies around him? Your way of seeing this is extremely common among premies, but it just isn't logical. Rawat is over 40 years old, he has tons of money, and I know of no one with a more loyal and compliant group of people just itching to help ( serve ) him. Why is it that he is so incapable of leading these people to do what he wants?

Why? Because you have it ALL WRONG.

They ARE doing what he wants. He wants them around to take the blame for everything that goes wrong in EV. Yet, he is more than willing to take the credit for anything that may happen to go well. What a great arrangement. It has worked well, the PAM blaming, as long as the cult has existed, and I am sure he has no intention of ever changing anything and accepting any responsibility for anything that has ever occured on his watch that was less than savory.

'Not a leaf moves without GMJs grace' but he is a perpetual victim of the flunkies around him.

Very convenient arrangement.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:40:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: right on Susan
Message:
I heard that argument over and over. In fact very few of the premies I knew liked each other much at all at the end of the 90's. And always there were the little sympathetic coments about poor M putting up with such a bunch of losers.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:50:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: ps
Subject: another typo
Message:
no, not 'coments'
losers was supposed to be loosers :)
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:54:14 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: LOL supposed to be 'loosers' (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:17:17 (GMT)
From: Yves' squeezing balls
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Joan (Ki-Jay) Apter III
Message:
Last episodes:
Joan Apter who's webpage link is on to Roger's page was a devotee from the start in 1971. She trained crowds into the 'Ki-jay' routine, complete with dance and song which had us look like Nazi youth at the Nuremberg rally. Someone I like to call by the vertical pronoun lately invited her in a civilized way to join this Forum and tell us where she stand on the issue of Rawat's divinity given a) she promoted it and b) it had disastrous consequences for many.

This invitation, when reported on the Forum ignited enough antagonism and negative comments that the above-mentioned individual pledged to act as normal as he think his Inner-game-of-tennis would like him to and let other dedicated forum participants take it away of let it go into oblivion.

Joan Apter hasn't yet answered the invitation which, in itself may be interpreted as quite rude. My Rice-Krispies had me speculate on the reasons for her silence and I will not share those speculations unless asked otherwise.

How was this?

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:02:44 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Yves' squeezing balls
Subject: How was it?
Message:
The grammar is terrible and the train of thought hard to follow. I'd give it six out of ten if I was having a good day, which I'm not, so I'll have to give it just three.

I agree that all people who perpetrated the myth that Maharaji was the Lord need to come clean and admit they deluded us. But perhaps they believed that the booze swilling, dope smoking youth was the Lord of all the universes. I'd really like to know how they square the circle now that Maharaji's not the Lord any more.

I had a fixation on Glen Whittaker a while back (it's in the archives) but since then I've become a transexual.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:59:36 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Fixation on Glen Whitaker?
Message:
Are you a notch on his bedpost?

Please show me how to access this particular archive.....can't wait.

C.G.

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 14:02:00 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Fixation on Glen Whitaker?
Message:
George:

I thought Glen Whitaker was that bearded fellow with the deep honey-smooth ballad-singing voice that used to sell records on late-night TV... in competition with Slim Whitman. I don't think he yodelled, though I could be wrong about that.

--Scott 'voice like a bagpipe' T.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:28:16 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Which part do you have a hard time with?
Message:
I am short of new amusing insults. You'll have to do without them for now. I thougt my grammar was excellent and am quite disappointed to learn it isn't. Too bad.

As for the train of thoughts argument, if you can't follow it, you shouldn't be too worried. I sometimes have a hard time with my own brains.

I'll take your rating for now. If you could do better, please feel free to do so.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:22:20 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: This perhaps?
Message:
'This invitation, when reported on the Forum ignited enough antagonism and negative comments that the above-mentioned individual pledged to act as normal as he think his Inner-game-of-tennis would like him to and let other dedicated forum participants take it away of let it go into oblivion.'

I'm sure the import of such words is lost on an ignorant half Anglo-Saxon such as me. Have you by any chance been taking English lessons from Catweasel?

Rule one of Catweasel speak: Make the sentence so utterly befuddling that the reader has forgotten what the sentence was originally about by the time they reach the end.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 15:04:59 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Translation for dummies
Message:
The invitation extended to Joan to join the forum attracted so much negative reactions that I decieded to let other forum articipants take care of it. Ghee.

Dis-donc tęte de slip. Tu comprend rien lŕ? C'est clair il me semble. Tu le veux en Italien, en Espagnol, en Latin, en Espéranto, en Chinetoque? Hého! Y'a quelqu'un ŕ la casa? Jean-Marie et Mohamed vont en bateau. Mohamed tombe ŕ l'eau. Qui c'est qui l'a poussé? Souris lŕ mon minet. Vraiment rien ŕ faire. Qui c'est qui m'a foutu un interlocuteur pareil? J'ai dű faire des péchés dans une vie antérieure. Bon, allez, c'est pas tout ça. Pas que ça ŕ faire, moi.

'This invitation, when reported on the Forum ignited enough antagonism and negative comments that the above-mentioned individual pledged to act as normal as he think his Inner-game-of-tennis would like him to and let other dedicated forum participants take it away of let it go into oblivion.'

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 23:42:20 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Translation for dummies
Message:
Yves wrote:

Say-therefore head of slipway. You includes/understands nothing there? It is clear it seems to me. You want it in Italian, Spanish, Latin, Esperanto, a Chink? Heho! Does Yves have somebody with put? Jean-Marie and Mohamed go in boat. Mohamed falls to water. Who it is which pushed it? Mouse there my pussy. Really nothing to make. Who it is which has me foutu a similar interlocutor? I had to make sins in a former life. Good, go, it is not all that. Not that that to make, me.'

Allow me to set my trousers on fire if I speak not the truth but it is now all as clear as the murky waters at the bottom of Loch Ness.

But will you be satisfied to let other people here harass Saint Joan de New York? I tried to needle Glen Whittaker and all I ever saw was the Elan Vital FAQ. You'd do better arguing with a Jehova's Witness. A cult is a cult and the people in it are cult like. Unless they decide to leave the cult of their own volition, there's not a cat-in-Hells chance of getting any straight answers.

It should be 'or' let it go into oblivion. Which I think it will do. If she's left the cult she still has the years of programming and cult thinking. That shows up for years afterwards. Even Mike Dettmers still can't actually say that Maharaji pretended to be God, even though we all know he did.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 16:39:31 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Heavy
Message:
Very heavy.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 15:13:09 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Hold-back expected reactions
Message:
I let myself go. I know I said I'd try to control myself. Back to predictable English polite civil off-white speech.

Hu-hum.

Was this swell with you mister David?

I'll do my best to conform wasp mindscape as if it was the only one acceptable. I promise only to watch russian flicks in secret while everyone is asleep.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 14:20:44 (GMT)
From: Purrrrrrrrrr
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: This perhaps?
Message:
Dave, I can hear you. You shouldn't say that Dave.........
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 02:09:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: You MUST be having a bad day, Dave
Message:
1) I understood it.

2) It was kind of funny.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:53:21 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves' squeezing balls
Subject: Important point
Message:
***
Janet was accusing me below of being rude. This is what I answered.
'I am not asking for confession. I am asking for integrity. My question is this: where do you stand JA?

You are a devotee? Fine.
I have another question.

You are not a devotee? Fine.
I have another question.

You pretend to be neutral? You are full of shit.

You haven't come to terms with this yet? Come-on. How long will it take?

Simple.

So far, no answer is worse than Richard Simmon doing a duet with Celine Dion.'

Does anyone beside premies object to this? I think it is fair, polite and civilized. Do I conform now?

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:21:56 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Important point
Message:
language sets tone. telling joan she's full of shit is rude and combative. with women you will probably get further if you use words like 'conflict' or 'ambivalence' , words that describe feelings and dilemmas, rather than shock sensibilities. besides, you are attacking the person, instead of the behavior. every person in themselves is genuine. you don't go after their worth as a human being, you refer to what they hold and inquire as to whether that is what they actually want or desire to hold.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:30:02 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Where she is now
Message:
From the Idea Champions website:

Joan Apter, Senior Consultant with Idea Champions, has 23 years experience in organizational development, training and keynote speaking. Her work has taken her to 26 countries worldwide.

Ms. Apter has brought innovative thinking into workshops and coursework in a broad range of topics. She specializes in innovation, creative thinking, career and life transition skills and team building. Other areas of expertise include communication skills, executive coaching and conflict resolution.

Joan's clients have included Novotel Hotels, Coca Cola, AT&T, Met Life, Pacific Bell, The Breakthrough Foundation, The Ojai Foundation, Elan Vital and a wide variety of schools and non-profit organizations. In addition, Joan is a past Director of 'Odyssey' - a leading edge training company, specializing in intrapersonal communications skills.

Ms. Apter holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in Communication from Lawrence University in Wisconsin. Her postgraduate work has included courses in human resources, organizational development and creative thinking. She is fluent in French and Hindi and is the author of 'The Council Process' published by The Ojai Foundation Press, 1994.

Born in Los Angeles, raised in Washington, D.C., Ms. Apter resides in Woodstock, New York.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 16:04:53 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: happyheretic@hotmail.com
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: The Swiss Foundation
Message:
Michael,
I, as so many others, thank you for coming out, revealing things that we perhaps partly knew already, but it is different to hear it from somebody who actually was there. A first hand account is always a first hand account, something really different, which nobody can deny. I am glad you took the courage to reveal these things. It shows integrity from your part.

I understand that it takes time to open up and let things out, also that you still might feel certain obligations/problems due to your 'agreeement'. Still, I think it would make an enormous difference if you could tell us a little more about your own involvement with M's financial matters. For instance, what was your role with respect to the Swiss Foundation? Was money, given in order to 'spread Knowledge', laundred for M's personal use? The fact that a Swiss bank account was used - and perhaps still is in use - suggests that something fishy was going on? I would appreciate if you would take the time to clarify these matters.

Happy

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 20:50:34 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Happy
Subject: The Swiss Foundation
Message:
Happy:

The Swiss Foundation to which you refer is called the Élan Vital Foundation. As I briefly explained in my post below to Eddy The Turtle, one of my responsibilities was to re-organize Divine Light Mission for reasons. Also, there was considerable litigation over the DLM name in India and elsewhere caused by the dispute between Maharaji and his mother. I organized, and was a Director of, the Swiss Foundation which served as a hub (not the legal owner) for the overall coordination of most of the independent, not-for-profit DLM/Élan Vital organizations around the world. This structure simplified the organization and financing of worldwide programs, festivals, tours, and all of their related support activities. The funds were not used for Maharaji’s personal use, nor was any money ever laundered. The Swiss authorities govern their Foundations with an iron hand, tolerating absolutely no latitude with their strict regulations.

I created the Foundation in Switzerland because it was widely recognized by many international organizations as a neutral location from which to conduct worldwide operations. And, obviously, all of them had Swiss bank accounts. In my opinion, there is nothing sinister about a Swiss Bank account. Switzerland used to be famous for its bank secrecy laws but they have been greatly diminished in our increasingly global economy, and they did not apply if suspected criminal activity was being conducted through them, which certainly was not the case under my watch. Since I did not want to repeat the mistake of having Maharaji pigeonholed as the Chief Minister of a USA church, a Swiss base for the Foundation seemed more suitable, reflecting the international scope of his mission.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:48:18 (GMT)
From: Ana T
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: The Swiss Foundation - Onae Trust ?
Message:
Hi Michael,

Was the Onae Trust part of the Swiss machinations of EV/DLM? I noted they were involved with Prem Mark and the Rainbow Grocery Acquisition. Onae Trust is listed in Deltek SEC filings and I'm curious if the trust has changed hands from the Rainbow Grocery days.

Thanks,
Ana T

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:13:48 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Ana T
Subject: The Swiss Foundation - Onae Trust ?
Message:
Ana T

I would be crossing a fine line if I discussed anything about Maharaji's corporate structure. I have no problem discussing, in general terms, the Elan Vital Foundation because many organizers know about it and it was used exclusively for the purposes I outlined above. However, I am not at liberty to discuss the Onae Trust. Also, I have no idea what changes may have been made to the overall structure during the last decade or so, but I am sure that things must have evolved since then.

Michael

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 18:02:25 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: a fine line ... a question of ethics
Message:
Michael, I'd be grateful if you'd share your opinion on this -

EV has non-profit status as a 'church' with the IRS.

Yet both EV and the Maha currently deny themselves to be either a 'church' or a 'religion'.

Would you say this state of affairs could turn out to be an 'Achilles heel' for them? Or would losing that status mean very little?

Would appreciate your input.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:01:48 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Elan Vital Church status
Message:
Michael

I realize you may be legally unable to answer this one, but please offer what you can.

A couple of months ago a hot topic of discussion here was the fact that Elan Vital USA is registered with the IRS as a 'Church'. A few of us here, myself included, did a little research and came to the conclusion that said organization does not, and never did, meet any of the descriptive or logistical requirements for Church status laid out in the IRS Exempt Organization Handbook, available online.

For example, one of the stipulations, and one which is cited as cause for removal of Church status in a quoted court ruling, is that it's 'members' should consider it to be a Church. I think you and I both know what a quick straw poll in premiedom would reveal if people were asked. There are many similar points, and if you are interested I will find the archive references for you.

My question is, are you aware of this anomoly and would you still consider the EV legal armory to be bullet-proof? You see the difference it makes is quite significant, because this outrageous little charade removes their obligation to make detailed accounts publically available, or even provide the IRS with the kind financial information all non-Church charities have to provide. Do you know anything of the decision process which led to this application for Church status being made, and could you perhaps speculate as to why, if all the t's are crossed and the i's dotted, they (EV) are unwilling to make their Charitably Exempt income and expenditure publically available. As a donor myself, I should be interested to know exactly how the money is being used.

PS. I'd just like to add that I, too, apprectiate your contribution here, and am sorry if my initial tone with you was somewhat sceptical and abrasive.

Rob

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 18:12:50 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: oops, I see you've asked a similar Q. sorry (nt)
Message:
sadf
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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 01:59:47 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: It bears repeating cq and does matter (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 17:39:22 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Thanks for bringing it to MD's attention above(nt)
Message:

damn right it does matter!
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 23:15:14 (GMT)
From: A Friend
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Ana T
Message:
Hi Michael,

Just so you know...the person called Ana T, who is speaking civilly with you here, is dissing you just below as Tonette and has been one of the main proponents of the theory that you were involved in all sorts of illegal activities on Maharaji's behalf and at his behest. That, I suppose, would make you the head honcho of the Guile Annex.

She's also known as Mary.

Just one more example of how internet communications can be quite deceptive and there can seem to be many more participants than there actually are. It could be called cyber-schizophrenia.

Be well.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 23:44:15 (GMT)
From: Ana T
Email: None
To: A Friend
Subject: Ana T is *not* Tonette
Message:
Wrong AF....

Albeit I doubt the FA's would ever step forth and settle the vain imaginations of those who suspect me of being everyone under the sun.

Sincerely,
Mary

BTW - Michael, in the future I'll simply e-mail you. My apology about Mr Paranoid Friend.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:39:10 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Ana T definately NOT Tonette
Message:
I can vouch for that. And I just wonder who the so-called 'friend' is....

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 01:17:11 (GMT)
From: Ana T
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Ana T definately NOT Tonette
Message:
Marianne,

Thank you for your post.

Mary (Ana T)

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:32:22 (GMT)
From: Ana T
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: The Swiss Foundation - Onae Trust ?
Message:
Michael,

Understood. I've been following your postings and do appreciate what you have been able to share.

BTW - I too thank Roger for removing your info from his site as I was one of the contributors and am sorry for the misconstrued image of you and your endeavors that was presented back then.

Best to you and yours,

Ana T

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 13:13:02 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Eddy The Turtle and janet
Subject: Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al
Message:
To Janet and Eddy The Turtle:

Eddy I don’t know if you knew me and/or Bob Mischler but, in my opinion, you are way off base in your assessments. I worked closely with Bob throughout 1975 and 1976. He was the one who recommended to Maharaji that I be transferred from Canada, where I was the National Organizer, and brought to DLM’s International Headquarters to help him (Bob) bring some order to the organizational chaos that ensued following the Astrodome fiasco in November 1973.

In early 1975, DLM was still carrying huge debts from that event and there were precious little systems in place deal with the problem. In addition, the IRS was in the early stages of an investigation of DLM’s unrelated businesses. Although DLM was not engaged in any illegal activity, they lacked the proper books and records necessary for the IRS to conduct an audit. So yes, I did take a strong hand to get control of the situation and I did seek the help of some outside lawyers and accountants. I know it changed the laisse faire atmosphere that prevailed at the time, and I am aware that it pissed off a lot of people. But, contrary to what you suggest, Bob was delighted that finally someone was minding the shop because he spent most of his time traveling with Maharaji, and couldn’t be in Denver to do the job himself. Your assessment about the circumstances surrounding Bob’s departure are also way off base. But that’s another story that will have to wait.

Janet, I have read Sophia Collier’s account of that period and I can sympathize with her point of view. I have learned a lot in the past 25 years, and my approach to organizational design and development is vastly different today than my lack of experience allowed back then. Interestingly, I spoke with Sophia, for whom I have tremendous respect, late last year after she had been featured on CNN’s “Pinnacle”. She is a very successful entrepreneur and is currently the founder and CEO of an investment firm that invests in socially responsible businesses. It seem that she has learned that being a corporate type and raising consciousness are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 23:41:15 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al
Message:
first let me say what a difference there is between now and then. back then, i doubt if i could have so much as asked you for the honey on the counter at the tea station in 401. i was a nobody, sometimes treated as a 'bongo', never an ashram member, one of the faces you saw but never had a name to match it to. and yet i set my life on the altar at my knowledge session in may of 73 and never wanted to take it back. i lived the ashram rules even when homeless. i used them to evade rape when highway hitchiking to festivals, on semi trucks, going cross country. i kept them when squatting in abandoned houses with other homeless premies. i lived in the Shelter from may to september of 74, even being trusted to run the place after Amherst, despite not being officially an Ashram premie. (and it ran like a sewing machine during my time, i might add).sophia's chapters reminded me of how inspired and open and transformed everything was in the beginnng. her recountng of her crew in maine, their wanting to buy the house, the being told to give the money to Millennium instead, made me wonder who the hell 's idea was that anyway--millennium? it made me look back, over the numerous times our innate impulse to do good, out of the change Knowledge wrought in our perception of life, got repeatedly derailed, hijacked, subverted and co-opted to serve something else. her quote from William James haunts me.

i asked you to read it so that we would have a common reference point. you say in your response to me that you have changed in style in 25 years. can you say, with your hindsight now, how you see what errors you may have committed in the way you approached the problem you were brought in to handle? if you had it to do over again, what would you have done differently, or not done, in light of what effects it had on premies?

i remember trying to resolve to change myself to the new, corporate, DUO way in early 76, dressing up all office proper and going down to the offices to do some kind of service,to type some copy for someone for the day. I was miserable. I was scared. I felt like a robot, a fraud, a bad actor, sitting there hearing the phones ring and the type writers clacking and the suits hustling in and out all day. I remember giving up in shame and going home and cracking in my little room, knowing i could not make the transition.I distinctly felt that there was no place for me in the 'new' DLM. I had been to the 5th floor of the kittredge building. i had liked it up there before. now suddenly it was cold and unfriendly and a chilling mood of brute efficiency had come over it. It was rather like being a child when daddy marries a stranger and the new regime has no love or warmth anymore, but you have no other home, and you're too little to run away. For myself, I distinctly felt that it was not coming from Maharaj ji. there were people placing themselves between me and the one iwas there for, and there was no getting past them.

so now i learn that it was you i can attribute this change to. and now i can actually talk to you, one adult to another, with the respect of equals, and you engage me honestly when i do.
that evening when i went home from DUO and cracked, knowing i couldn't do it, there came a phone call late at night. my mother had had a stroke and fallen into a third level coma out in newport beach, and was dying in ICU on the west coast. i was to fly there the next day and stand her deathwatch. the timing couldnt have been closer. it felt like my cracking point coincided with her having the stroke. all of 76 was a memory loss for me--the stone room, etc.--described elsewhere here. the changes in the mission were outside the pale of my awareness, but the fragmentation and dispersal and confusion in the mission meant there was no net to catch me, no longer a 'family' of premies to notice or protect me or see that i was ok(which i clearly wasn't.) they were all baffled and unsure and looking at each other in uncertainty, because of the changes that were coming down from IHQ. the year previous, i would have had a spot in a household, meals, service, satsang, people to live with who were aware of me day to day who would have noticed something was definitely wrong with me..and in the spontaneous, humane caring that knowledge often triggered, before it was reformed by 'policy', they probably would have moved to help me. i would like to hear your reaction to this “report from the bottom layer” that you never encountered in your executive cocoon then.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:11:24 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al
Message:
I'd love to read your post but I just can't get past the punctuation. It's very hard to read.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:37:59 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al
Message:
She's on WebTV.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 04:09:15 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al
Message:
Okay, thanks. I didn't know WebTV was like that.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 08:44:15 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: webtv-i can do it but it takes many edits
Message:
i sometimes do not get on the board what the server showed me in my proofs. i punctuate. i try to paragraph. i know html. but its all a hassle when im emotional(like just then. im= I'm). try rereading more slowly.

sorry

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 17:14:01 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: webtv-i can do it but it takes many edits
Message:
I did reread it. Good story... well, bad story written well but with messed up punctuation by WebTV. Corporateness sucked then and it sucks now.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 23:53:20 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: janet
Subject: Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al
Message:
Dear Janet,

That's a sad story. I had my own mental health problems, including nine months in the 'bin, back in '84.

Sucks to be us. :)

Christopher

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 08:46:26 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: u 2 huh....we need to take a head count
Message:
find out how many of us did time behind the walls in the quiet room.
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 10:18:33 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: u 2 huh....we need to take a head count
Message:
Hi Janet,

I've been there too and have mentioned it in the past in this place but now suggest to fellow travellers to think twice before doing same. It is said in my community that one in five people will at some time become mentally ill. I would hazard a guess that the proportion of premies who have had an illness would be even greater but this is not an environment that is at all safe to discuss one's experiences, IMHO.

Love your posts, keep them up and damn the pedantic puntuation pundit's.

Oliver.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 15:50:29 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: oliver you are hired
Message:
You'd fit right in where I work with all those impressive 'p' words pedantic puntuation pundit's, portals, pedagogy, paradigm
I want to check in right now. Just to get away from work!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 02:36:05 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: When do I start?.....
Message:
....and what is the money like?

Interesting that there have been no heads raised to be counted apart from us two dare devil manics. I wonder why? Maybe we have all been disempowered, (remember that one?)

BTW, heard any good lawyer jokes lately?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 02:45:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Jim and I have a truce at the moment
Message:
At least I think we do.
I have no problem admitting that I got fucked up and sought help. If I had gotten fucked up and NOT sought help that would be a different matter.
Don't know if you saw my post way down - or inactive most likely - in response to Q. I think all in all putting oneself into the care of those facilities sucks hugely but I desperately needed the time out and do not regret it.
But I doubt I'd do it again. Hopefully I won't need to.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 03:26:23 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Unbelievable
Message:
So I guess if Janet wonders why ex's who have had a spell in the 'quiet room' are loath to put their hands up she may be able to put 2 and 2 together. Or am I being too harsh?

My recent time out in the land of the recent coup was an excellent place for time out and far preferrable to the alternative. Came back rested and refreshed and well enough to even face the rigours of F5. Silly me. :)

Of course you won't do the 'quiet room' trip again. Your to smart for that.

BTW, how did you manage the truce. Did you need a white flag?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 03:54:28 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor21@hotmail.com
To: Oliver
Subject: Unbelievable (OT)
Message:
Greetings Oliver,

I've been wondering if I could read more of 'They are the Particles of Light, Photons, and their unobservable cousins, the Neutrinos.'
© 1998 R. D. Howe

Would you know how it might be possible? I've posted my email address, if there is any way.

Thanks,

Stonor

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:15:04 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: garfarboleets@hotmail.com
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Speaking to Michael
Message:
Michael,

I want to say hello to you. I was not a premie, but my Aunt was and I was very close to her growing up. She committed suicide in the early eighties.

I just wanted to tell you that I read some of your recent posts on Sir Dave's site this morning. A lot of what you had to say was very healing for me. I can't really explain it other to say that you provided some answers to things that have been the subject for speculation around here. It appears that talking here has been helpful for you, too.

Personally, I understand why you aren't able to disclose certain specific facts. You have disclosed a lot of facts, IMO. I appreciate the way you have accepted responsibility for your role in things and the fact that you said you were sorry. It's completely understandable that you worked to help Maharaji considering you were his devotee!

It must be very difficult emotionally for you to have spent so much of your life in the forefront of all of this, only to realize the truth later on. You were in on the action, but you are an ex and if you need support emotionally, I hope you are able to get that within the community of ex-premies.

I liked what you said about not wanting to be the bought and paid for apologist. I think it's important that you aren't. Anyway, thanks and I'll see you around.

Sincerely,
Jennifer

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:12:58 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al
Message:
Thanks, Michael, for all the clarifications. I should add that I think Sophia was 20 when she wrote that book. She's about the same age as I am, and was another 'teenage premie', although she was far more mature than I was at the same age.

I'm not sure how old you are, Michael, but the point I'm trying to make, although not to you particularly, is that we were ALL young back then. Brian knew Bob Mishler, and even Bob was young back then :).

I take responsibility for the mistakes I did when I was younger, but one of the things I've learned as I grow older is to extend to my younger self the same acceptance I extend to other people who are that age now. (I work with college students and sometimes they seem SO young! I'm sure I seemed the same way at that age, but sometimes it's hard to remember.)

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 13:30:49 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Bob Mischler, Sophia Collier, et al
Message:
No I dont know you, but I have met Bob M few times. He struck me as being an honest guy.

All I can say is that something very dramatic happened to DLM/Elan Vital in the late 70's mid 80's. It is very unusual and tangential. DLM took a round about turn in everything. What your contribution was, I dont know, only you know. But I am certain, these lawyers/accountants saw a great cash cow to milk. I am also certain that M fell for the bait and became a prisoner of this inner circle of outsiders.

MAy I ask you somthing? Did M deal directly with/take advice from these guys, or was it always thro and in the company of premies like you?.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:46:40 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: Bob Mishler, Sophia Collier, et al
Message:
Eddy,

You are right, Bob Mishler, (sorry for mis-spelling his name earlier) was an honest guy.

The DLM/Élan Vital I remember was never a cash cow. We could barely keep up with the expenses and pay the bills on time.

You ask if M dealt directly with/took advice from his outside lawyers and accountants and suggest that he was a prisoner of this inner circle of outsiders. Maharaji dealt mainly with me on a regular basis concerning legal and financial matters. I, it turn, dealt with the outside advisors. Once or twice a year, however, Maharaji met with all of his legal and financial advisors, but I can assure you that he was nobody's prisoner. If he didn't like the advice he got, he spoke up. Here is one example of what I am talking about, paraphrased from an earlier post I made in April:

When I first came to Denver, I dug into the rules and regulations governing a church (which DLM was) with the help of professional advisors. I discovered that Maharaji, as head of this church, was considered to be its chief minister and expected to live and function within the confines of that particular status. Maharaji, who was now a US permanent resident, was upset to discover that he unwittingly had been relegated to the status of a chief minister of a Denver-based US church as the current outside lawyers engaged by DLM explained to him. He understood that they were simply explaining his situation to him, but he thought it was foolish that he should modify his role to conform to that very narrow legal construct. When Maharaji asked me what I thought, I told him that I thought it was absurd that he should find himself in this position and that the time had come to re-think his whole organizational structure. With that, he asked my to take on a new role as his personal manager where I would oversee a complete restructuring of his organization.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 11:16:10 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Truth about M , Dettmers and Bob Mishler
Message:
Personally I think what really happened, is that when Dettmers was recruited into DLM, it is interesting that is when Bob Mishler more or less was kicked out...

M surrounded himself with hard headed legal advisors, Financial planners and people like Mike D who turned the organisation into a money spining machine. I noticed that Dettmers talked alot in his post about how much he talked to M on Money, and how M had very good legal and financial advisors..and Bob Mishler was not like that at all...thats why he had to go..

And the sad truth is that the Ashrams were closed not because of a mysterious reason, but simply that they were a financial liability and were not significant profit earners for the amount of time and energy spent on them...

The reality is that M has by then become a prisoner of the hard headed money men and the legal adivors who saw that DLM could turn into a nice profit making organisation for them and for M...He lost control of the whole situation and become a prisoner of a new beast...The organisational charts, cost cutting, goal orientated, workshop driven, spiritually drained organisation...No more vision, no more higher goals, but mundane organisation

I think Mike Dettmers owes it to all of us to come out and tell us the total and complete truth...which he has not so far completely done...he is keeping alot hidden under the guise of a signed contract..thats all bulls..

Mike...why dont you be as corageuos as Bob Mishler was...and finally come out and say what you know..what you really know...dont drip feed us..we aint stupid..Tell the whole story...you will have to do that one day anyway...

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:00:56 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: You can skip over this ^ post.-nt
Message:
dfjdf
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:34:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Clever use of '^' sign, Bill (nt)
Message:
ggggggg
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 04:52:05 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks St James, I see Anonomousie popped in....nt
Message:
cchjd
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 11:13:56 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Truth site now updated
Message:
I've updated the suicides and other sections of the site and all the updates are clearly marked.

Click here for The Truth about Maharaji

I'm gradually putting old posts on the site which I've saved for this purpose so don't be surprised to see stuff you read on the forum last year, suddenly appearing on my site.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 15:54:46 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Sir Dave
Subject: How's progress on the archive search facility?
Message:
I know it's probably a lot of hard work getting the thing up to date, Sir D, but your little-known forum archive search engine will be a marvellous resource once you've got it finished - and one which the FA's might consider linking the forum to directly (?) It would make referring back to old (or even recent) forum posts so much easier for everyone.

How's it all going?

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:23:15 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Thanks
Message:
[note from FA: this 'nt' post belongs underneath Sir Dave's reply below.]
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 13:25:02 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Glad to see the FA's on the ball (NT)
Message:
When again shall we (2 or 3) meet again and laugh and sing songs of great confusion ?
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 00:12:03 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Err, I was afraid someone would ask
Message:
The trouble is, not only is my system for archiving the posts so complicated that I have to try to remember how I was doing it; but I also lost track of where I'd got to in the archives. That's the trouble with a job like that - you have to keep on doing it, otherwise you forget what you were doing.

When I have a spare hour and a clear head, I'll figure out what the system was again and this time, I'll keep it up faster than the new posts get archived. That's the only way it'll ever get done.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 12:46:13 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Truth site now updated
Message:
Thanks, Sir Dave
I got in on a couple of posts I missed. I understand who Dettmers is now.
Appreciate it,
Jennifer
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 13:31:20 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jennifer
Subject: Most of MD's post are also saved here
Message:
in the Best of Forum page

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 14:26:05 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks, JM-nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 12:05:15 (GMT)
From: Just a question
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir Dave
Message:
When did Marianne post Abis email?
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 12:39:19 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Just a question
Subject: Sir Dave
Message:
Abi's email to Marianne (and not the one posted to Anth) was posted on the forum on Friday the 29th of October 1999 at 14:33:20 (EDT).
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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 02:55:09 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir Dave
Message:
Hey, great job Your Lordship!

I was looking at the section on MJ's not allowing a devotee to marry, and noticed that it was just a rather rumorish-sounding post by Salam, and my response! This didn't seem like quite enough evidence to put this in, although I bet it's true. It just occurred to me that in order for the true stuff to be believed, it would be good to base things on a little bit more direct information. Otherwise the whole thing might leave itself open to being rejected as hearsay.

Just a thought. Does anyone actually know more about this Gurucharnanand thing? Anyone else forbidden to marry? Now I know there were more people in this category! Maybe we should start a thread requesting details to flesh out your new piece.

All the best

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 08:51:47 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: how you(dettmers) changed the Mission
Message:
`i just reread sophia collier's soul rush as it is serialized here on ExPdot org, and i was particularly struck by the ghastly pall that descended over the mission when you came onboard. i was in Denver in those days, tho never in the ashram and never official in the kittredge building; but i clearly remember the morbidity that set in when you were 'hired'.

would you do us the favor of rereading these chapters and giving some genuine reflection to what is said there, and then explain why the hell it was changed the way it was?? i have more questions when i know you've refreshed your memory.starthere

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:13:53 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: ne1
Subject: Collier's Copyright (was: how you (dett..)
Message:
To everyone here -

This is a copyright violation -- copyrights are good for 75 years. Sophia's words should be removed from the server (or permission to reproduce them here, secured). Sorry, it's true. Could also be a contributing factor in getting this site shut down legally. Bad move, in my amateur opinion (I am not a lawyer).

I would fully support seeing them reproduced here with Ms. Collier's permission. Without her permission, this is more of that premie justified-theft culture. Don't need it; don't want it.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:41:49 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: I think most copyrights are for 28 yrs...
Message:
although that still doesn't resolve aOaji's point.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:43:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: but it is stated at the beginning
Message:
that the rest of the book would not be posted w/o permission of the author.
The assumption is that the posted text was by permission.
one of the FA's will answer this I'm sure.
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 18:10:31 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Oh, I didn't realize that...
Message:
I have a copy of the book, so I haven't looked at the online version. Sophia probably wouldn't have a problem with the book being online, since it's out of print, but that's not the point either. She's pretty high profile (I've seen in-depth articles about her in the NY Times), so she can probably be contacted easily in order to get permission. Of course, she might just rather see that period in her life fade into the sunset, and not have it full blown on the net.

Thanks, though.
M

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:25:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Sohia Collier and Copyrights
Message:
Sophia did contact JM after he reprinted her book on the website. Sophia said she was supportive of what was going on at ex-premie.org, but she didn't want the entire book reprinted. She said that she now owned the copyright and not the publisher.

Anyhow, JM is reprinting just some of the chapters, mostly those having to do with knowledge, DLM, and related topics. There are a bunch of chapters early in the book that are more about Sophia growing up, etc., which aren't directly related to the later chapters. So JM modified the chapters reprinted with that in mind, and form what I understand, Sophia doesn't have a problem with it.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 01:12:04 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks. I'm glad Sophia is supportive. (nt)
Message:
mm
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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 22:46:57 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sohia Collier and Copyrights
Message:
Thanks for the clarification, Joe.

A notice stating the same is generally required to be included in any such transmission -- at least, that is common practice for software copyrighted work.

Otherwise, it looks a lot like theft of intellectual property, which is rampant on the Internet these days.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:28:41 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Unity School ex
Subject: Jagdeo
Message:
Dear Unity School Ex:

Would you please email me? I will keep your identity confidential. If you need someone to speak up for me, communicate with Anth.

Many thanks,
Marianne

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 04:51:08 (GMT)
From: T. Yingling/Elan Vital
Email: Elanvital@wearenotacult/wereallyaren't.org
To: Everyone
Subject: A Memorandum to Anonymous Parties
Message:
To: All You Angry, Negative, Spiteful, Unwilling to Let Go of the Past and Move on, Mean, Nasty, Mostly Anonymous, Ex-premies Who are Posting Unsubstanitated and Ungrounded Things on the Internet, as Well as Anyone Else Who Will Listen.

From: Terry Yingling, Public Relations Person, as Part of a Leaderless Team of Volunteers Who are Always Saying Postive Things About Elan Vital Which Makes Us think We Are Doing Our Jobs Better, More and More, in Synchronized Participation.

Subject: Michael Dettmers and Various Unsubstantiated Rumors about Maharaji

It has come to Elan Vital's attention that someone has been recently posting as 'Michael Dettmers' on a certain website, too horrible to even think about much less mention, which has for three years now been attacking Maharaji and Elan Vital with ungrounded vitriolity, mostly in an anonymous fashion.

While Elan Vital realizes it is Michael Dettmers' prerogative to post on that hell-hole if he wants to, we just hope we don't get blamed for any threats he might receive as a result. While it is against both Elan Vital's and Maharaji's policies that someone threaten him, both Elan Vital and Maharaji would likely understand how someone who was a truly loving devotee might do so anyway, you know, out of a feeling of wanting to do participation and in gratitude to help Maharaji be free from these scurrilous attacks, and in appreciation for all the wonderful things Maharaji has done for them, and without whom they would be nothing more than pond scum. Yes, we could understand how someone might think that if they put the fear of God into a certain unnamed person with the initials such s 'MD,' they might get a front row seat at the next event we sponsor and which Maharaji attends, and perhaps be given an opportunity to stay for a week on Maharaji's small and moderately-priced, delapitated, 106-foot yacht, even though it would be against our policy, sort of. But we would be just so saddened if we were to be blamed for that, which we can't be, because we have a policy against it, a copy of which may be obtained by visiting our office on the third Tuesday of every third month between 3:00 and 3:10 AM.

I would also like to say on a personal note that Michael Dettmers comparing me to Monica Lewinsky is just so infuriating, and another example of the terrible things people say on that evil website. First, Monica Lewinsky is overweight and I am not. Plus, I would not be caught dead wearing the funny hats she did (a beret, OH, NO!), and I am very careful to always have my soiled dresses dry-cleaned, unlike SOME people we have heard about. Finally, I would just like to say categorically, that Maharaji has never come near any part of my body with a cigar. So much for that. See? See how mean and vicious these people are? We are just so sickened that Michael, formerly one of Elan Vital's very own, is becoming one of them.

It has also come to our attention that Michael has posted some wild rumors about Maharaji, smoking joints, and Peter Frampton. Well, we are shocked that Mr. Dettmers would say such things. First, it is nobody's business what Maharaji's taste in music is, and we have a strict policy that if somebody wants to sit around smoking doobies and listening to 70s pop rock and roll, well, that is their own business, and we are not in a position to judge anyone else's choice of either music or drugs, both of which may well be part of a successful lifestyle, which we are in no position to judge and we have a policy that we shouldn't and neither should you.

But we also wanted to point out that what would appear to a neutral bystander to some people sitting in a group and passing around joints, was actually Maharaji teaching his students a valuable lesson in sharing. Yes, Maharaji is such a humanitarian and loving person, and kind, (did we say kind?) person, that sharing whatever he owned has always been a top priority.

But we have observed that Maharaji was likely just lighting up fragrant herbs and he has never used illegal drugs of any kind. And to the extent illegal drugs were literally forced upon him by those thousands of crazed hippies who were so up to their eyeballs in DRUG CULTURE that it was almost unbelivable, and who nearly destroyed Maharaji's work in those horrible 70s with all their Hindu concepts, he never, ever, inhaled. Instead, he just interacted with them, in a coloquial fashion, and sometimes would even dance with them in mutual admiration, pretending to be taking drags just to make them feel accepted and loved. Well this could certainly be described as enigmatic, but that just the kind of guy Maharaji is. Did we mention that Maharaji has been described as kind?

And did you know that the states of Connecticut and Colorado, and the City of Detroit gave commendations to Maharaji, even though he was just a teenager at the time, praising him for helping save young people from DRUG CULTURE? They don't just give those things away, you know. Elan Vital fails to understand how Maharaji could have received those official recognitions if he was, at the same time, toking reefer on a daily basis. That is how ludicrious those allegations are, and we have a policy that says so. Using illegal drugs? Maharaji? Give us here at Elan Vital a break!

Finally, regarding that matter of Mahatma Jagdeo. We just don't understand what the problem is. Those supposed 'victims' have yet to meet with us, and when Jagdeo was asked by someone if he had sexually molested little girls, mentioning that he would be publicly humiliated and immediately be arrested and go to jail for a long, long time if he did, he denied it. He said he didn't do it. Now why would he have any reason to lie? Tell us, why? We have investigated this matter thoroughly and Elan Vital believes this chapter is closed, unless some other person who also just wants to cause trouble has other unsubstantiated allegations to make, as long as they follow, to the letter, the complaint procedure on our website, as well as the 47 pages of procedures available at our office on the third Sunday in September in even-numbered years from 4:00 to 4:10 AM.

If anyone else has any questions about the contents of this official memorandum please contact Elan Vital, which is not a cult, by emailing one of our volunteer, leaderless team members, who works in syhncronized participation at Elan Vital, at ElanVita@wearenotacult/wereallyaren't.org

Yours in participatory synchronization,

Terry Yingling
Elan Vital

ELAN VITAL: ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 05:19:27 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: T. Yingling/Elan Vital
Subject: Not a cult since 1971! _nt_
Message:
what part of _nt_ didn't you understand? :)
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