Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 21:23:03 (GMT)
From: Oct 31, 2000 To: Nov 09, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


hamzen -:- Severance pay for ex-premies from gm, bizarre no!! -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:21:23 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Severance pay for ex-premies from gm, bizarre no!! -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:38:54 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Severance pay for ex-premies from gm, bizarre no!! -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:28:34 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Yes, JM got about 120k, I think he said -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:10:09 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Me ? Never !!!! -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:39:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Sorry I must have got it wrong! -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:45:27 (GMT)

Jim -:- The Hamster must be chattering in his sleep -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:46:10 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Your Joan Apter Letter... -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 22:38:16 (GMT)
__ __ gErRy -:- If Joanie married Goobie... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 01:12:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Didn't Joan marry Ira woods? nt -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:37:33 (GMT)
__ cq -:- It's a giveaway. Hammy Hamster (so-Ham - or Hung)- -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 18:58:46 (GMT)

Jethr to FA -:- Downloading question -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:26:50 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Web Site Downloader V1.25 -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:07:14 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- UK sinking? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:15:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Pretty wet here......... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 01:13:12 (GMT)
__ ham -:- Jed, Freeserve are still doing free access, -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 15:00:56 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- BT Internet is free evenings and weekends -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 15:28:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- But BT charges four point something pence per conn -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 19:19:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- No you're wrong -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:11:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- No YOU'RE wrong -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:21:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- BT Internet is free evenings and weekends -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:46:10 (GMT)
__ Forum Administrator -:- Downloading question -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:42:08 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Downloading question -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:38:38 (GMT)

Michael Dettmers -:- More answers to your questions -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 03:39:00 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- More answers to your questions -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:35:04 (GMT)
__ gErRy -:- So YOU'RE 'red butler' !!! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:09:09 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Informative! Please,could you discuss the money? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:01:53 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- 'scuse me, suchabanana, if I may interject.... -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:51:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Shp has a vision -- and we get to read about it! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 01:18:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- you must be smoking some of m.'s stash! dude! (nt -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 22:55:26 (GMT)
__ shp -:- A sincere question from a premie -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:06:39 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Sandy... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 09:34:58 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- A sincere response -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:11:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Great post, Michael - thanks. (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:53:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- Bravo! (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:04:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jennifer -:- A sincere response--**BEST* of forum stuff MD -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:01:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Turner -:- A sincere response -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 06:05:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Turner: please inform yourself further -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 15:07:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Questions for you Turner -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 11:30:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What do YOU have to say about sleep apnea? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 07:46:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Not forgetting the corollary argument.... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:43:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Thank you for your sincere response. -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:03:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- shp - I hope you listened to this! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:45:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Jim stole shp cloths while he was sunbathing naked -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:48:57 (GMT)
__ __ Bilbo -:- Shutup, Gollum (aka shp)! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:59:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- OK 'Bilbo', you asked for it... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 15:51:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- sanford, you dont need to serve another... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 21:22:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- You assume the name of a fictional hero and call -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:12:34 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- A sincere answer from an ex-premie -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:31:54 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- Another question for you please, Michael -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:26:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- You seem desperate -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:47:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ shp -:- I am understandably curious -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:11:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I am understandably curious -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:21:56 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- yes prem hit his 'premies' shp -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:15:05 (GMT)
__ __ Mickey the Exegete -:- Setting straight the Noah story. -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 23:41:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Setting straight the Noah story. -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:51:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Setting straight the Noah story. -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:14:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Setting straight the Noah story. -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:37:43 (GMT)
__ __ Rick -:- maharaji -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:22:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- Read it again, sam -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 22:11:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rick -:- The key word, Mili, is 'countless'... -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 23:03:09 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Yes, good question .... and how about Santa Claus? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:37:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Not to mention the fact that the North Pole is -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:59:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Nice try, shppie -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:08:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- stupid is as stupid does, Jim -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:39:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Please, shp, tell us about ALL the Masters -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:07:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Who's been 'thread hopping' again...Jimbinimbo! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:20:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Wipe that smile off your face, you looser -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:21:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Wrong on this, Jim. I respect shp. I always have -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:58:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Those mischieveous boys are at it again behind -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:30:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- shp, don't have to stay out in the cold forever -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 06:17:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Oh, to be in such exalted company!! LOL nt -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:28:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Actually, we are all in great debt to you, Mickey -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:33:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- They usually don't have a clue, either! nt -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:40:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I cna type i'n laughong so mcu h! (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:07:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- It's l-o-s-e-r, stupid! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:38:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're like something stuck between my teeth -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:52:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- I could say something very appropriate and to my -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:26:52 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Mili, mili, where's Mili when you need him?? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 18:23:03 (GMT)
__ __ Mili -:- What's your problem, Ham? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:08:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Mili the 'spiritual consumer' -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 01:19:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- C'mon Mili, drop the premie pose for a second -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 22:16:49 (GMT)
__ cq -:- An unanswered question -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:34:51 (GMT)
__ Tim Goulding -:- More answers to your questions -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:14:59 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Dr Strangely Strange I presume...? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 22:44:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim G -:- Dr Strangely Strange I presume...? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 23:10:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Wow - I've come over all starstruck! -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 23:31:26 (GMT)
__ __ Tim G -:- More answers to your questions -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 19:50:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- 'look back on most of it with good laugh' ... -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:17:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tim G -:- 'look back on most of it with good laugh' ... -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 23:24:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- No hard feelings. Just touched a nerve. -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 19:30:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'look back on most of it with good laugh' ... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 13:12:48 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- More answers to your questions -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:43:21 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- More answers to your questions -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:05:05 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Answers to questions? or just more questions? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 19:48:53 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Should have said 'You are describing... -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:07:07 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Maharaji's respect for ex-premies -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 12:52:02 (GMT)
__ Bill Burke -:- prem describes Bill Patterson. -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 12:13:54 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- how are you doin'? didn't see your posts lately(nt -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:03:40 (GMT)
__ Rick -:- the alcoholism -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 06:32:56 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Let's keep the pot and alcohol in context -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:05:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- doesn't that go without saying? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:42:12 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- More questions to your answers -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 05:15:30 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- More questions to your answers -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:37:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- Please!MONEY dispersion,corps. setup,m. assets?(nt -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:14:57 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- WOW! -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 05:05:26 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Tuson torrent of abuse. -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:50:55 (GMT)
__ Curious George -:- Climb Every mountain till you find your dream -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 04:23:50 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- You were victimized by an abusive alcoholic -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 04:10:19 (GMT)
__ __ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Also from alchoholic familiy -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:02:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- Also from alchoholic familiy -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:15:38 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- You were victimized by an abusive alcoholic -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 06:21:43 (GMT)
__ __ Gorgeous George -:- that's mighty white of you, mikie -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 04:19:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thank you Michael -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 15:17:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Happy -:- Thank you Michael -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:32:33 (GMT)

suchabanana -:- interesting book/site: 'Treatise on Cosmic Fire' -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 03:20:21 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- interesting book/site: 'Treatise on Cosmic Fire' -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 03:27:34 (GMT)
__ __ Curious George -:- Treatise on White Magic -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 04:34:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- Bingo! Jim, check out connection in above post- nt -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 19:15:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, such but that stuff leaves me cold -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:45:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- Yes!But read Curious George-he relates it to m.(nt -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:11:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, got it. A pox on all their ashrams (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:53:41 (GMT)
__ such -:- correction: early 20th century (nt ot) -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 03:24:25 (GMT)

Jim -:- Is it fair to call Brian Gaudet a bonehead? -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:32:33 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Is it fair to call Maharaji a criminal? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:03:42 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Sure, it's fair -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 03:29:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Steve seeing that you are a judge -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 05:31:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Steve seeing that you are a judge -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 06:45:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- This court is nillified before it has even started -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 09:27:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- You've really got a bug up your ass about this -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 15:58:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- A bug among other things. -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:22:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Religious counselor? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:21:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- This court is nillified before it has even started -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 15:43:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You guys are behaving stupidly -- grow up! -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:31:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- You guys are behaving stupidly -- grow up! -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:07:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You guys are behaving stupidly -- grow up! -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 19:54:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- And I agree with you. -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:25:52 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Delhi? Hmmm... -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:57:29 (GMT)
__ Rick -:- Is it fair to call Brian Gaudet a bonehead? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:26:47 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Is it fair to call Brian Gaudet a bonehead? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:50:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Are we not men? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:13:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Me too, Nigel! -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:59:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- ditto (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:05:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rick -:- actually -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:16:01 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- But it's a real confederacy of dunces, isn't it? -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:39:37 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Hey! -A confederacy of dunces- is a terrific book! -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:00:45 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Ah, but they FORGET, Jim... -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:07:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That's why they call it the razor's edge, I guess -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:46:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- That's why they call it the vomit inducer, I guess -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:09:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's why they call it the vomit inducer, I guess -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 03:20:47 (GMT)

Mickey the Pharisee -:- Hey Gerry!!! (OT) -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 19:28:35 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- The Future Is Not Far Away -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 17:23:24 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- The Future Is Not Far Away -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:28:17 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- The Future Is Not Far Away -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 22:55:58 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Jim and I would kill each other -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:09:49 (GMT)
__ bill -:- all communes end in a squabbling mess!-nt -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:07:00 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- can you imagine? -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:13:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- can you imagine?ot -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:21:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- time heals (ot) and thank you for asking -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:27:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bb -:- time heals -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:55:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- last night -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:42:48 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:21:23 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Severance pay for ex-premies from gm, bizarre no!!
Message:
Before I start I'd like to point out this isn't a Michael Dettmers bashing exercise, ok!

On the phone to someone today reading them dettmers' post, been giving him all the fresh information as it comes up. The post produced more of a response from him than all the other information he's received from me, in fact hit hard to the point that he said 'fuck it, what's the point'. This from someone who's never had an experience but is still trying to engage with the whole process occasionally, and has always felt it was his fault that the connection never happened, he still regularly gets premies trying to get him to 'surrender', after 26 years of it not working.

He has always reverted to lila, gm testing etc before, but a couple of interesting points came out of the call.

He couldn't see what possibility for learning for marilyn there could be in his shenanigans with monica lewis & the other blondes he's chased, but also when told of michael's severance pay he was astonished. 'I thought this was supposed to be a spiritual organization, not a business'.

An interesating point from a number of angles. Bizarre concept that gm pays people when they become ex-premies, and how many other people have received severance pay, and what are the figures involved?
Don't blame 'em for taking it, who wouldn't have done when they left, I wouldn't mind a few grand for the wasted time meself, but it's still a very odd concept in a 'spiritual' organization, guess it must be another lila!!!!

Anybody have any info on the number of people and the figures involved??

And don't forget you blonde female premies, there's still hope, just start working a bit on those outfits, maybe send a letter with photos.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:38:54 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Severance pay for ex-premies from gm, bizarre no!!
Message:
I got a severence package if you want to call it that when I left in 1976. It was about $200 in cash, an old truck and some of the hand tools I came into the ashram with. It was a lot less than I went in with and I think the $200 or wahtever it was standard. I think I got the truck because they were winding down the construction division and they didn't know what to do with it. I think I was one of the last Denver construction guys out the door in that go round, the rest had been sent to exotic places like Malibu.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:28:34 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Severance pay for ex-premies from gm, bizarre no!!
Message:
I remember Jean-Michel saying he got some sort of severance deal when he left EV.

Sorry, I don't remember the details. It should be somewhere in the archives about 2 years ago.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:10:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Yes, JM got about 120k, I think he said
Message:
Sorry, just kidding!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:39:09 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Me ? Never !!!!
Message:
Where did you got that one ?

Not that I wouldn't like it ....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:45:27 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Sorry I must have got it wrong!
Message:
When I frst came on this site about 2+years ago, I seem to remember a french recent ex who was an initiator saying he got a payoff when he left.
Apologies.

Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:46:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Hamster must be chattering in his sleep
Message:
The following is how the fat, greasy little hamster started one of his Hindu God Personality Cult indoctrination sessions in Australia in September:

What tendency is this—to shy away from reality? What tendency is this to duck what is truth?

If this were an election it'd be like he was trying to steal his opponent's platform.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 22:38:16 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Your Joan Apter Letter...
Message:
I just read a copy of your letter to Joan of Maharaji, and it was very good.

Keep the pressure on, that's great.

Have fun,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 01:12:46 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: If Joanie married Goobie...
Message:
Would she be 'Joan Hamster' then?

never mind...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:37:33 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Didn't Joan marry Ira woods? nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 18:58:46 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's a giveaway. Hammy Hamster (so-Ham - or Hung)-
Message:
... spouts what's in his subconscious (yes, premies, even the Maha has a subconscious) and, in the fullness of time, what's on his carbon-based mind eventually appears in his bourbon-based discourses.

But that's only to be expected of a con-artist. What is? Well - he accuses others of what he himself has become an adapt at (i.e. ducking the truth).

How transparent!

But not, in a somewhat ironic fashion, transparent enough to those who claim to have 'seen the light' (only a thousand suns was it?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:26:50 (GMT)
From: Jethr to FA
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: Downloading question
Message:
Hi FA,

Could the forum software be upgraded to download threads and/or the active index.
Here in the UK we have to pay phone time for most of the online time and it's getting really expensive.

Regards Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:07:14 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jethr to FA
Subject: Web Site Downloader V1.25
Message:
Will do the job. It's a sharware program by Sausage Software. Their Web address is:http://www.sausage.com/supertoolz/website_downloader.html.

You can also download the program from www.tucows.com. But to save you time and money, go to this address http://tucows.internex.net.au/preview/750.html.

The program is 2.3Mbyte, takes about 7-10 minutes, and can cost you about 50p in download time. Anything else?

p.s. I heard that Britin is sincking and the UK will start in Manchaster. Is that true?

(now why would anyone say such a thing, could he be a Scotch?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:15:30 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Salam
Subject: UK sinking?
Message:
Not quite, but it's getting that way with low-lying regions and cities throughout England and Wales currently underwater - thousands of homes evacuated.

It has rained torrentially every day for over a fortnight now and is expected to carry on for most of this week.

Never known anything like it. Predictably, global warming has been blamed, but who knows..?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 01:13:12 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Pretty wet here.........
Message:

.......wettest in York for 400 years so they say.

Weren't any motor cars around then.

Some say it's Solar fluctuations , within the 'normal' range for the last 10,000 years ,that's causing global warming , if indeed that's why we're getting pissed on.

It's a godsend for politicians to justify crippling indirect taxes whilst being right up there with fashionable opinion.

How come the wind always blows the right way for these bastards?

Me , I don't know at all , but do know that nothing can be done , which is not to say that I don't want to breathe fresh air.

Apparently the Autumn of 1894 was almost as wet , but as people didn't build on flood plains then , or spend all their time charging up & down the country , they didn't get all freaked out about the end of the world , just wet.

If it's any consolation , the winter that followed was one of the coldest & snowiest of the century.

Invest in hot-water bottle futures !

Buy long johns.

Then you can curse me in the Spring when crocodiles are spotted up the Mersey.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 15:00:56 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jethr to FA
Subject: Jed, Freeserve are still doing free access,
Message:
although for how long is anybodies guess bearing in mind what's been happening with most of the free servers recently, restrictions they have brought in are, only 2 hours at any onetime, and off-line after 10 minutes inactive, which can be a bore when writing long posts especially during those periods when getting back on-line is tedious, like 6-10 attempts. Thankfully they've got better again recently.
And even for macs. But I appreciate your comment, my first two years here cost me over £2000, on my income!, maybe I should ask the great maha for severance/service pay!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 15:28:06 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: BT Internet is free evenings and weekends
Message:
I use BT Internet which, if you pay the £11 or so subscription per month, gives you free telephone surf time from 6pm to midnight every weekday and all weekend.

I'm not sure what site Bill is refering too but the only way I know to save sites offline is to use the save offline facility which is built into Windows IE. You just click Add to favourites and then click Make available offline.

You can then choose to save 1, 2 or even 3 pages deep. This takes some time to download though.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 19:19:19 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: But BT charges four point something pence per conn
Message:
...ection.

That adds up to a significant amount, considering how each connection to any one post costs at least that.

(But maybe to honorary cheese-guarders like Sir Dave, that's just peanuts? ... or, cheesy peanuts? ... er peasy chi-nuts? ... or should that be kneesy chi-puts? OK forget it!)


OneTel, I've heard, have NO connection charges, and costs only 1p per minute.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:11:15 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: No you're wrong
Message:
Earlier this year, when BT stopped me making outgoing calls because I hadn't payed the bill, I was STILL able to access BT Internet free surftime number because it's a seperate number which really is TOTALLY FREE!!!

i.e. No connection charge. Incidentally, I was also with Lineone at the time because they had free phone 24 hour surf time and I could still connect to that too because it's FREE!!!

Or at least it was until they realised they were making a big loss with people being on the net all the time.

But look here; your Onetel are NOTHING! Because you can get 1p per minute anyway with AOL and BT Pay-as-you-go.

BT Internet really is the ONLY way to get GENUINE FREE surftime and don't believe all the rest because even if THEY offer FREE surftime, they're only buying the service from BT Internet and reselling it anyway.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:21:54 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: No YOU'RE wrong
Message:
check your facts Dave

- and yesterday's Guardian IT (

where the facts are given verbatim - and BT DOES charge for each connection).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:46:10 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Sir Dave and hanzen
Subject: BT Internet is free evenings and weekends
Message:
Thanks for the info.
I am trying to boycott BT because of their monopoly.

Also I used to use freeserve, but the waiting time was unacceptable.

cheers Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:42:08 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Jethr to FA
Subject: Downloading question
Message:
Hi Jethro,

It's an interesting question, and I'm afraid I don't have the answer. Techie questions need to be addressed to Brian, who still maintains the software - though I suspect he will see your query here. Anyway, I'll pass on your question next time we speak.

Forum Administrator

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:38:38 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jethr to FA
Subject: Downloading question
Message:
Sir David showed us a link once to a free software download that would enable you to capture an entire website.
You might get more than you want doing that, but you could read and then delete the whole thing.
You can check with him to see if I understood it right and if it will help you out.

If not, we can start the Jethro Fund!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 03:39:00 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Everyone
Subject: More answers to your questions
Message:
This is an attempt to respond coherently to several questions in one post.

La-ex had a series of questions about the San Yisidro meeting including such details as when, why, who is Will Schutz, format, and whether Maharaji knew what the meeting was about, or was he surprised, and viewed it as a 'setup' of sorts? Was it mostly about the 'playing god' issue, and was the issue of the 'drinking problem' brought up there?

Joe also asked about Maharaji’s drinking problem such as how it manifested, did he get drunk all the time, did his personality change when he drank, did he drink during programs, and did he ever drink before going on-stage, etc.? Hamzen expressed interest about Maharaji the performer and his state of mind before going on stage (i.e. was he nervous, drunk, etc?) Curious George asked if Maharaji ever practiced knowledge given his drinking problem.

JohnT wonders how I felt about being involved in a cult for so long. He accepts that I have been responding to questions sincerely so he can’t understand how I was conned for so long nor understand what I thought I was doing. Rick pick’s up on this theme and wonders how or if I was able to keep my “ego” out of what I was doing, given my rise to power in the cult.

First let me address the San Yisidro meeting. In doing so, I will repeat much of what I have already posted on the Forum last April, but let me add this. The meeting took place a few months after Maharaji and Marolyn had resolved some personal difficulties in their marriage. At that time, Maharaji became painfully aware that, not just Marolyn, but most of the people around him did not speak truthfully to him about what they were really thinking and feeling. Mostly people told Maharaji whatever he wanted to hear. I am satisfied that I told Maharaji exactly what I thought about the financial and legal matters I handled on his behalf, but I kept many of my opinions about some of the other issues that needed addressing to myself.

Maharaji, because he was particularly sensitive at that time to the dangers of people not speaking honestly to him, was open to my suggestion that I organize a two-day executive retreat at the San Yisidro conference center in Santa Barbara, California to help address this issue. His openness to this idea was bolstered because I recommended that it be facilitated by Will Schutz, a training and development specialist who helped organizations improve the quality of their relationships. Will has written several books and, at the time of the retreat in March or April of 1985, his then latest book entitled 'The Truth Option' had just been released. The focus of his work at that time was to create an environment where people felt safe enough to speak the truth to each other as they saw it, and to institute truth telling as a standard practice in their organizations. His claim was that this practice would help people develop a culture of shared leadership and responsibility by diminishing the negative impact of a rigid hierarchy, engender trust and mutual respect, increase creativity, enhance productivity and improve the overall quality of life in their organization.

As I said in my April post, I attended the meeting along with Maharaji, Marolyn, Joan Apter, Jean Marie Bonthous and two other organizers (their names have not been raised on the forum so I will respect their privacy) along with Will Schutz and one of his associates. Joan Apter was invited as a representative of the instructors and Jean Marie was invited because he played a very prominent role in organizing Maharaji's worldwide events. I’m sure that Will and his associate had never encountered clients quite like us. He was, of course, aware of who Maharaji was but I doubt if he had ever worked with an organization where such extreme deference was accorded its leader and it was quite a challenge for him to get everyone to a point where we were all at the same level on the playing field. In fact, he almost got us there by the end of the first day, but by the next morning, Maharaji had, once again, retreated into his self-absorbed isolation. Although he remained physically present for the two days, he simply found that process too confronting and withdrew emotionally. Consequently, from my perspective at least, the event was a failure and a missed opportunity for Maharaji. As I stated many times, the retreat was not set-up as an alcoholic intervention. Had it succeeded, however, it may have created an opening to address that issue afterwards. As it turned out, many of the issues that I hoped would get addressed at the retreat never got discussed.

I will now respond to some of the ancillary questions regarding Maharaji and his drinking. For as long as I knew him, Maharaji never drank at programs nor was he ever drunk when he was on stage. He never seemed nervous to me before going on stage. Since he never spoke form a script, he wasn’t concerned about forgetting his lines. I suggested several times that he prepare more carefully for public events by anticipating and addressing the specific concerns of his audience, but he did not consider that important. Maharaji complied with the strict FAA guidelines for pilots about not drinking a certain number of hours before flying, and he successfully passed all of the periodic medical exams required by the FAA.

Given these facts, and given that I am not an expert on alcoholism nor do I have any experience with alcoholism either personally or within my family or with close friends, I do not consider myself qualified to make a clinical assessment about Maharaji’s drinking. In is my non-expert opinion, however, that Maharaji did (does?)have a drinking problem. I saw him drunk countless times in the privacy of his residence, at restaurants, and at parties. During these bouts of drunkenness, he became loud and critical about everything and everyone around him, often slurring invectives at premies who had been serving him selflessly and tirelessly for years. Although I was never treated this way, at least while I was in his presence, I witnessed the psychological damage and abuse he inflicted on others. It finally reached a point, just before I left, when I felt compelled to address my concerns about his drinking with him.

At a meeting between the two of us at his apartment in Miami, I told him that his drinking, and the torrent of abuse and negativity it unleashed, led me to believe that he no longer cared about his life or his mission. I told him that he seemed unnaturally angry and dissatisfied, especially since he was offering others the key to peace and happiness, and had everything including countless people ready to respond to his every whim. I mentioned that I was particularly concerned that he always blamed someone for his state of dissatisfaction. I told him that this pattern of behavior put me, and him, in a very dangerous situation. My service to Maharaji required that I exercise good judgment and seek expert advice to fulfill his wishes. To that end, I worked diligently to understand and make his concerns my concerns, and I acted out of those concerns to the best of my ability. I reminded him that I carried a tremendous responsibility to ensure that his affairs were handled properly. The IRS for example, audited him on two more occasions following the 1976 – 1977 audit I referred to in a previous post. Had my team and I not ensured that all of his affairs adhered strictly to the groundrules that were established then, Maharaji might again find himself in difficulty. That never happened on my watch but I was very aware that if anything had gone wrong, I would have been held accountable and I understood and accepted that responsibility. But I became increasingly wary of his tendency to blame others and look for scapegoats upon whom to deflect responsibility and accountability if things didn’t go his way. The concept of “mutual” responsibility and accountability totally escaped Maharaji.

Because of his excessive drinking and the recurrent behavior that ensued, I come to the painful realization that he no longer cared about anyone or anything. I told him how utterly paralyzed I became when this realization dawned on me. Because I was no longer able to make his concerns my concerns, the very fabric of what constituted “service” for me and that which motivated me to act had died, and I told him so that day. He listened quietly as I spoke and did not respond when I was finished. He did not appear angry. He simply got up and left the room.

To answer JohnT and Rick’s questions, let me begin by saying that, when Maharaji made me his personal manager, he created a very different role than the one Bob Mishler had fulfilled. Maharaji made it clear that he wanted me to maintain a low profile in my new role. He did not want me or anybody else attaining the kind of prominence that Bob had achieved as the head of DLM's IHQ and as the chief spokesperson for Maharaji’s mission. From then on, Maharaji reserved that role for himself. For my part, I did not want Bob’s role, nor was I capable of fulfilling it as well as he did. So even though my new role didn’t allow me to have the kind of ego satisfaction of by being in the public spotlight, the tremendous satisfaction I did experience at being “invited to the dinner table” was in knowing that I was playing a significant role in helping Maharaji achieve his mission, one that enabled me to use and develop my own particular abilities.

My new role, however, turned out to be a 24/7 occupation. I regularly put in 18-hour days and, even when I wasn’t working, I was always “on call.” After being in this situation for years on end, my body and mind coupled to the environment. I simply didn’t have or take the time to reflect on what I was doing with my life in a general sense because I was so preoccupied with getting through the next tour, or completing the next project, or handling this or that problem. It was an all-consuming job that left little or no time for myself. The drinking problem I have just addressed, however, forced me to reflect and question, and finally muster the courage to speak my concerns directly to Maharaji.

Finally, Curious George, I don’t know if Maharaji “practiced” knowledge if, by practice, you are asking me if he practiced meditation. I never saw him meditate, but I also never saw him when he withdrew to his bedroom whether at one of his residences or when staying at hotels. I know that I meditate in the quiet of my bedroom where no one other than possibly Madeline sees me.

That’s all for now.

Michael Dettmers

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:35:04 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: More answers to your questions
Message:
Michael,

Thank you for the answer below. I have chosen to post up here to save you time wading through the thread. As you can see we have a big party going.

It is interesting to see that in religious organizations such as EV where the whole organization exists for the sole purpose of serving the need of a singular figure, teamwork does not apply. While EV is certainly trying hard to apply these principles, it is the fact that no one in such an organization believes that his/her contribution and position are serious. That is because of the fact that the head of the organization can fire and hire at his own wish without the fear of being held accountable for his action

The picture that I get when I imagine the organizational structure of EV/DLM is pathetic. I can see m as being a dictator such as Saddam where human life does not really mean much to him. His only and last interest is to govern, use any mean possible.

It is not surprising that everyone approaches him with fear, the man is unpredictable to start with. Second imagine spending all you waking time working on something that seemed like a life and death situation then told to drop it, just like that. It is a soul killer.

I just have to watch and see how long would take everyone in that environment to stand up and say enough is enough.

God bless

Salam

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:09:09 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: So YOU'RE 'red butler' !!!
Message:
I knew it all along !!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:01:53 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Informative! Please,could you discuss the money?
Message:
Dear Michael,

I think your latest posts are helping some people finally see and understand some aspects of the whole trip that were essentially hidden from almost all of the premies' view.

Also, these accounts help debunk rampant premie beliefs: that m. was somehow above everyone else, that his behavior would be appropriate for a spiritual master, that his personality and lifestyle was somehow consistent with what he preached in public, that he wouldn't indulge in things (drugs or alcohol) that he stated were a hindrance on the path of knowledge, and that any inconsistencies between his dogma and his own behavior were simply lilas (a divine game) and to be understood that way.

However, Michael, like many others I donated money regularly for many years to the organization -- where did our hard-earned contributions end up? I hope you can address fundraising and the dispersion of the donations (especially as it pertains to m.'s expensive lifestyle), the setup of Seva and the marine company, the restructuring of DLM/EVI, the sale of the Malibu residence, the purchase/sale of other residences, etc. Also, an inventory of how many residences, how much land, how many expensive cars, aircraft, boats, and personnel did m. routinely have at his personal disposal? IRS audits, and how to conform to 501(c)3 guidelines and GAAP?

How much of our DLM/EVI donations was getting eaten up by m.'s insatiable materialist appetites? Didn't the darshan line booty and regular personal checks to m. account for a lot, too?

How did m. get the weed? What kind of herb and drinks did he prefer? Also, what do you know about m. and Monica (also Claudia) -- are the stories circulating on the internet true?

The textbook distribution company? M.'s shares in premie businesses? Rajaji as a beneficiary of the system?

Last week, I compared this whole racket to the way Al Capone's empire was set up. There are lots of similarities here.

Did you ever feel compromised -- your ethics, beliefs, position?

It's natural that most people would not have seen m. meditate -- after all, we were taught to do that in private. I'm one of the people here who also still likes to meditate (although not strict about it anymore). I do it in private, too. Frankly, I like occasional meditation -- and I derive some benefits from it: some peace of mind when things might be otherwise stressful, overall increased mental concentration and an ability to focus on my work better, lower blood pressure, + I like the inner sights and sounds better than the noise of the freeways nearby. I have also developed more comfortable versions of the first two techniques (for us old folks). There are exes here who mock meditation now (as part of dissing the whole shebang) -- but, hey, who has walked in anyone else's shoes, right? (Several of these historic yogic techniques have some medical merit, too.)

I think that the meditation experience and the mysticism and secrecy surrounding the impartment of the techniques, coupled with the novelty of a kid offering the world alleged salvation, coupled with the scriptural and millenial allusions, rites, claims, reinforced belief system, and m.'s posturing all combined to create a very powerful and compelling attraction back in the 70s and early 80s -- especially those young folks coming from the counterculture, peace and civil rights activists, spiritual seekers, and codependents and enablers from dysfunctional families and relationships. In fact, the cumulative effects of a longterm institutionalized abuser/codependent-enabler relationship of m./premies is what made questioning, realizing and leaving very difficult for many premies.

In retrospect, I think that if all the money generated had actually been altruistically and methodically applied to spreading meditation techniques freely and with no strings attached (personal devotion, secrecy, belief system, etc.), that tens of millions of people would have already learned the techniques worldwide, practiced them, and then passed them along to others, too. In that respect, m.'s gross addiction to the Maya actually impeded his own alleged mission. How this mega-materialist gouging and gorging could be explained as part of his work, or befitting the Lord in the Flesh, or as a divine lila, or as the 'affluent lifestyle' of a successful businessman -- is beyond me!

Please rsvp. Thanks.

Peace,

da lil' swami

PS I went to San Ysidro a few times, too -- spent a weekend there once with Baba Hari Das -- the yogi who doesn't speak but writes everything on a handheld chalkboard. I wonder what he would do if he ran out of chalk?!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:51:40 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: 'scuse me, suchabanana, if I may interject....
Message:
When you talk about Maharaji coming west to sort of gather up all the counterculture kidz, it sounds like it was a premeditated plot or something. How I see it is that it was all was happening at the same time, by greater synergies at work than human planning. He happened to be thirteen and coming to the west in 1971 by some greater design than Mata Ji and family could have ever cooked up in the ashram basement under a flickering lightbulb on a card table. Really, don't ya think?

You think Shri Hans sent some Indian spies over here disguised as hippies in the mid-60's with some good acid or someting to set up the coming of his son? I don't think so.

It all just happened the way it happened. Man proposes, God disposes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 01:18:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Shp has a vision -- and we get to read about it!
Message:
When you talk about Maharaji coming west to sort of gather up all the counterculture kidz, it sounds like it was a premeditated plot or something. How I see it is that it was all was happening at the same time, by greater synergies at work than human planning.

Sounds like you're on to something, shp. Ghosts in the machine, and all that, huh?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 22:55:26 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: you must be smoking some of m.'s stash! dude! (nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:06:39 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: A sincere question from a premie
Message:
Michael,

I am using this Forum as it is advertised to be used in the introduction, with premies and ex-premies discussing anything and everything...the truth does and will set us free. I just need to determine what the highest truth is in this matter and go with that, in order to be as free as possible, which is all our birthrights. Your viewpoint will be much appreciated.

I have read most all of your posts here. Your information and experiences make me very sad, as I am sure it does you.

I come here to this site to listen and try to understand why people left Maharaji, and engage in dialog with them. I have encountered articulate, gentle folks who have told me some horror stories ranging from Jagdeo's multi-year unchecked intercontinental pedophilia to ashram suicides. I have also encountered some very angry people who verbally lynch me whenever I show up here because I am a premie and have not renounced Maharaji. I have stuck my own foot in my own mouth a few times and gotten into some verbal smackdowns with some particularly aggressive exers, but I don't think that is the reason for their anger coming at me. I feel that whatever is eating some of these folks about Maharaji is vented on anyone showing here and identifying themselves as a premie, and not converting to be an ex-premie within a prescribed amount of time having been given a prescribed amount of information. I have come to understand that now, in part because of your posts. Most premies don't have a clue as to what you saw, heard and lived because you were so close to him. Your stories are disconcerting, to say the least.

My life as a premie has been on the periphery of Maharaji's physical presence in this world, just living as a householder in North America and dealing with all that includes. I have been to programs, practiced about 20 years, and have held it to be true all that time that he is the present revealer of Knowledge, and there are not just techniques, but his own 'grace' that makes it happen internally. Hearing yours and others' stories is really unsettling and hard to digest, but I don't question your veracity....the information is just shocking.

The question I have for you is NOT some sort of test or trick. You have been so frank and forthcoming, I thought you would not mind if I asked it. It is a sincere question based on my own study of something that happened a long time ago. Some here may laugh at me for this, and some may find it a cause for derision, but that is them and I am me.

It is recorded in the historical record known as the Scriptures that Noah was found drunk one night by his sons. One of them faced Noah and busted him for being drunk. Noah cursed that son and still did his gig for God anyway, drunk, hung over or whatnot. Still built the ark, still got his family and critters into it, still did his mission, his calling. It's not a myth, though some may say it is. The ark has been discovered, but not de-iced yet. It happened, maybe not so literally as written with two of every single critter, but it happened. Michael, do you think it is even remotely possible in your eyes that Maharaji, for all of his drinking, confrontational and apparent dysfunctional and abusive behavior, (it is also said that the Lord chastens who he loves), could still be a true servant of God despite his human frailties, and that his mission could still be what it was originally stated, to spread the Knowledge of God within to the world? If anybody would have a window into this possibility from a real-world perspective and not just on faith, you would, having been so up close and personal. I'd appreciate your feedback when you have time. Is it possible that all of our concepts about what the Master would be like are being blown out of the water, and even the high and holy servants of God with very important missions still have some serious shit to work out personally even though they have a divine mission, too? Because whatever we think is right, wrong, good or bad pales when compared to what IS. And what is is that Knowledge is Knowledge and Maharaji -warts and all- reveals it. And I know it works when used as directed. This is all very hard for me to grasp and hang onto. How do you feel about this?

Sanford Pass aka shp

PS I was just about to send this, and thought of a few more things to say. First, I am not a 'religious fanatic', even though I referred to Scriptures. Some here may call me out on that and pull some old posts out of mothballs (and context) to prove their point. I just happen to have studied it alot in my years before becoming a premie, so it's on my desktop so to speak. I can think non-secular too.

Also, I heard a story a long time ago about Shri Hans and Maharaji from when he was a little kid. Shri Hans was beating one of his premies with a shoe for something, and Maharaji told his dad he would never beat on his premies, but that he would only discipline them with love. Did you ever hear that one? Mental abuse is as bad or worse than physical abuse, and a shoe can be merciful compared to the hurt that can be inflicted with words or unkind actions, or at least that is my experience.

I am here on my own, not with anyone else's prior knowledge, suggestion or direction. Looking forward to your reply,

shp

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 09:34:58 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Sandy...
Message:
Hi Sandy,

It's inspiring to watch your soul rising up through the crap that was showered on us from on high for years. From our correspondance both on and off the forum, I know you are a sincere person. The truth is too powerful to stay hidden for good.

Keep on truckin' Sandy. You're going to feel really good when you finally break free.

Anth the Ex

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:11:01 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: shp
Subject: A sincere response
Message:
Sanford,

I am not going to respond to your question on the basis of your Noah story. You are free, of course, to believe whatever you want to about Noah, but I am not a religious person and I side with the others who suggested that all such stories are myths at best.

Maharaji, on the other hand, is no myth so I will assume you are sincere when you ask me if I “think it is even remotely possible that Maharaji, for all of his drinking, confrontational and apparent dysfunctional and abusive behavior, could still be a true servant of God despite his human frailties, and that his mission could still be what it was originally stated, to spread the Knowledge of God within to the world?”

My short answer is an emphatic “NO”. I don’t fault Maharaji for suffering from human frailties. I fault him for failing to recognize that he is as human as the rest of us and suffers from much more serious human frailties than most people. In his current state of mind, he is not capable of serving anybody but himself as he has been selfishly doing for years. If somehow he were to miraculously get in touch with his own humanity, he would first have to try and undo all of the damage he has done to the thousands of people he has deceived. But that would mean, among other things, giving up all of his ill-gotten gains by making reparations wherever possible. Thus, I think it is highly unlikely that he will ever, of his own accord, look himself in the mirror and face what he has done in the name of “spreading the knowledge of god.”

His day of reckoning will come, no doubt, but in the meantime, Sanford, my advice is to get the hell out of the trap you are in as soon as possible.

Michael

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:53:27 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Great post, Michael - thanks. (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:04:09 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Bravo! (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:01:45 (GMT)
From: Jennifer
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: A sincere response--**BEST* of forum stuff MD
Message:
Micheal,
If Maharaji is truly dissatisfied with his life, though he has everything a person could possibly want, it sounds like his day of reckoning is now. He is living it.
Jennifer
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 06:05:11 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: A sincere response
Message:
Michael, you judge Maharaji for his perceived trappings of weakness but you miss the point. Point is, there is a secret to life and it does reside within the breath. And there is no one else on this planet besides Maharaji that I’ve met who is as committed and works as tirelessly to help people know this secret. You should know as much as anyone how much effort he expends to this end and how sincerely he believes in this goal. Or has your retrospective judgment of him given you amnesia?

Unlike you, I have been on the receiving end of what you would call his abuse. No it was not a pleasant experience. But it was not unpleasant so much because my expectations of him as a loving person were challenged – and indeed they were - but because he called me with clinical precision on where I was at. He held up a mirror to my face and it was confronting as hell. But it was in the end it was something I learned from and I benefited greatly.

Michael, maybe you meditate; maybe you pursue an inner course in your life; maybe you strive to be conscious; maybe you challenge your own knowledge of self against reality in a sincere pursuit of truth. I myself do attempt these things and I try my best. But one thing I’ve discovered is that these pursuits are dead without someone to breath life into them. I have found that only a Master can do this. If you don’t need a Master to stay inspired, you are more (or less?) of a man than me. One day, everything leaves you – and then where do you turn. If that hasn’t already happened to you, you have no idea what I’m talking about – but you will.

Yes I admit, I lose hope sometimes and need reminding that there is something that never lets me down within my being. You stopped believing in him and from there it’s a very short journey to turning against him. But for those who continue to follow him, his words breath hope into their hearts, and that hope can be the difference between meaning and emptiness; literally life and death. That is the power of the Master.

Whether you opine he drinks too much booze, shouldn’t have smoked dope, criticizes too much the people around him or whatever, the hope he gives his followers is real and the encouragement to strive for the highest inner goal is tangible. Are you prepared to accept responsibility for taking that hope away from just one person? So what if your opinions put somebody’s life into a tailspin, serves ‘em right - right?

Michael it doesn’t matter how close you were to Maharaji, you are as far away today from understanding his role as anyone could be. Your opinion of him is just another voice in the dark - and yes, that is just my opinion. On the other hand, I do appreciate the factual points you have cleared up.

Turner

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 15:07:37 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Turner: please inform yourself further
Message:
Turner,

You say that there is no one on the planet as dedicated to the secret of life as Mr. Rawat - that you have met. Please research two websites: the Rick Ross website and the website on religious sectes put out by the University of Virginia. Even though you will not be able to meet these Perfect Masters in person, you will at least know of their existence. There are literally hundreds of Masters just as dedicated to their own personality cults as is Mr. Rawat, including his own oldest brother - please also see the website for Sat Pal (formerly known as Bal Bhagwan Ji, and affectionately known here as Bubblegum Ji).

One other point, you speak of Mr. Rawat as the Master who gives hope to the hearts of his students. Surely you realize that Mr. Rawat has no monopoly on either hope or the human heart. Every single human being must struggle with the issues inherent in being alive in a human body. And no, the sincere pursuit of truth is definitely not dead without the human guru-figure. It is every bit as alive and real when a man reaches for his own soul on his own terms.

Best wishes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 11:30:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Questions for you Turner
Message:
Hi Turner,

I have a question or two.

As a follower of Maharaji, do you consider yourself to be a member of a religious cult- like the Moonies and the Hare Krishnas?

Do you believe Maharaji is the Perfect Master of his time (like Jesus, Buddha etc?)

Do you believe the experiences you have when you practice knowledge are an experience of the inner life force- God, Soul etc?

Is there anything you would not do if asked personally by Maharaji to do it?

Looking forward to hearing your replies. No, 'I don't know what the Moonies experience so I can't answer' type evasions please. And feel free to return any questions you may have.

Anth the Inquisitor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 07:46:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: What do YOU have to say about sleep apnea?
Message:
Point is, there is a secret to life and it does reside within the breath.

What about people who have this condition that makes them stop breathing in their sleep? Do the inner, secret fairies go on strike? What?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:43:52 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Not forgetting the corollary argument....
Message:
In both deep sleep and coma, even when breathing carries on as normal, there is NO consciousness. 'You', effectively do not exist in a realised, unrealised or anything else state. (Even less room for doubt when, say, there is nothing more than brain stem activity going on and the patient is 'breathed' by a ventilator but the body remains technically alive.)

Interesting the likes of Turner make these bald assertions (never arguments) about the breath as seat of the soul, essence of life or whatever, but shrink from examining the everyday evidence which makes such claims untenable.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:03:50 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thank you for your sincere response.
Message:
I would be interested in your long answer as well if there is one.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:45:22 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: shp - I hope you listened to this!
Message:
Sandy, please take Michael's post to heart.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:48:57 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Jim stole shp cloths while he was sunbathing naked
Message:
That is why he's disappeared.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:59:44 (GMT)
From: Bilbo
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Shutup, Gollum (aka shp)!
Message:
Yes, yes, yes - all these aggressive ex-premies hound you so!

And, you, shp, are so innocent, having never done nothing wrong and always seeking one's birthright - the highest truth.

Fact is, shp, that you are more often a liar, a twister of words, an Abner Louima perpetrator...

shp, you're little soapbox is being eaten by termites as we speak

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 15:51:19 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Bilbo
Subject: OK 'Bilbo', you asked for it...
Message:
Much like yourself, Gollum hid in the shadows and concealed his true identity. Much like yourself, Gollum did battle for greed of the power, not to foster truth or peace.

I on the other hand am here in my own name, not needing to lean on and hide behind a heroic fictional character to bolster my position and take anonymous swipes at you. You ninny.

And if you read my post, you would not come at me accusing me of claiming to be an 'innocent' in all cases. You have poor reading comprehension. There are those here who wish to engage in sincere exchanges across the canyon of differences over Maharaji and there are those, like in junior high school, who circle and start chanting 'fight, fight, fight', and one or two genuine bullies to do the hitting for the vicarious pleasure of the group. Strange culture, but really very ordinary and a slice of life, a microcosmic sampling of humanity, right here.
I have posted immaturely here from time to time when I allowed someone to 'get my goat', but we all change and grow and I hope to have outgrown that habit by now. It is a goal to stay in my highest space inside and deal from there. Now you can play with that comment and mess around with it, or you can get the message. It's up to you.

Sanford

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 21:22:26 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: sanford, you dont need to serve another...
Message:
human being as obviously flawed as Maharaji. You yourself have more compassion,feeling, genuine human caring and humility than the man michael worked for.i couldnt help but grab this excerpt out of your post to bilbo--
'...not needing to lean on and hide behind a heroic fictional character to bolster my position...'
sandy, all of us were induced into swallowing exactly that. a heroic, fictional character. did you know there was such a thing as SatGuru or that you needed one, before you encountered the strange phenomenon of Premies? You were simply told. Did that guy in the expensive suit and the heavy watch and the echoing voice actually sit down with you, yourself, make your individual acquaintence and become your friend? Did he ever actually take a personal interest in you, take tenderness for your tribulations in getting through life, and offer from the moving of his heart to yours, to show you what he had, the secret to life? No. He did not. You met wave after wave of other people, who told you to go and ask for it.None of them was him. You met Special people, Important people, High Mucky-Mucks, whom you were told came at his order. Some of them may have even told you that he sent them before you. Not to you, Sanford, personally. Not hardly. Just ordered to go out and talk to people. In fact, you may have gotten the distinct impression that they felt that no one ought to be treated to individual recognition. You may have tried to introduce yourself, and may have been offended to be treated as nonexistent or insignificant, and put off by such chilling impersonalism.
Does it make any sense that all the talk refers to listening to the heart, yet those who ostensibly have been chosen for their superior comprehension, to go out and address others at his order, show exactly the opposite of heart?? does that scan? Wouldn't your human sense tell you that the better a person understood this supposed gift, if it was about living life from your heart, they would evidence more heart than others? And the ones designated as Higher would show more heart than that? Amd that the one who was suposed to be the Highest would treat you with heart, the Most of All?
And all of this, IF what they were telling you was true?
It isnt like that. You know it hasn't been.
A dear, tender friend, who has learned that the secret of life is in the Heart, wouldn't beat anyone. They wouldn't rip and tear out and shatter anyone's trust. We know what someone with heart feels like. They wouldn't abuse someone who depended on them. They wouldn't get rid of a gift that had had the likes of three years of sacrificial labor poured into it at great personal peril and pain--ie., the Boeing 707 at DECA. That tale is one of heartless ingratitude, Sanford. There is zero love or heart in it.
all of us have Taken this thing on the basis of suspension of disbelief. Not knowing what it was or whther we actually needed it, we were exhorted to come and get it, were harangued that we needed it, in some instances spooked on purpose into dreading the outcome if we did not have it--and even after suspending our natural impulses and faculties to question about it, and after suppressing our personalties to the point it was shown to us, we still suspended our intrinsic intelligence to wait and see why they said all that. We allowed ourselves to be abused. We allowed ourselves to be diverted from everyday life. We permitted ourselves to be ordered about and shamed and denied and degraded, all in the name of waiting to see this great secret, without which life was supposedly nothing. What we were subjected to--and consented to it--was all being touted to us as orignating in the Heart-while all the behavior arose from anything But.
Sandy, we had Life before we bumped into this odd crowd. We had heart.We knew what it was to be moved for others, to care, to love. We had everything we needed. Hell, anyone who's ever made friends with a dog! knows what unreserved heart is--!!! We had devotion, and it was spontaneous, toward whoever or whatever in life merited it! No one had to tell us to be!
sandy, i honestly see more decency and compassion and higher human carriage in you than in that fat pipsqueak on the high hill! You understand more of love and forgivenenss and real godly qualities than the one you have been told to serve in order to...to do what, Sandy????
In order to do 'what'..?
You, just as you are, have the individual strength and the innate understanding, as yourself, to turn and walk away from serving that capricious, demanding, unappreciative, profligate, power-hungry, control-obsessed, dismissive, obnoxious prick--and to render your love to humans all around you who are far more deserving and hungry for it. They need your love, sandy. That self important martinet on the hill does not. He literally would not know what to do with love if it closed on his foot like a steel trap.He is contemptuous of everyone around him. He is disgusted with everything that is brought to him. He uses up and disposes of human beings as if they were kleenex™ and toilet paper.
How many people have you ignored in your life who needed you terribly, people all around you--who needed just you--not satsang, not Knowledge, but you--while you have given your irreplacable time to this remote,selfish, taking, uncaring individual?
when will it be too late, Sandy? Will you wake up in time? Will it dawn on you to look around you, to look back and see what he caused you to do to those who really cared? Really knew you? Really stayed with you? Really helped you?We have all heard the wistful utterings of those who get up and declare that 'they have learned that they can't depend on anyone but Maharaji'...and do you know why, Sandy? Because all the while we are fed this perpetual speech about life in the heart, we are surrounded by people acting without heart, in endless and unappreciated toil to try to please him!Isnt love supposed to be mutual ,sandy? Arent't the two supposed to give to each other? If there is a life meant to be lived out of the Heart, where is the equalty? the spontaneous gestures? the personalsharing? He isn't loving and responsive, sandy...he cuts people's hearts out and lacerates them.
God didnt make you and send you into the world for this, Sandy. You are a singular work. There isn't another of you as a spare, in a closet somewhere. There's just you. You are the only you for the people who know you. Do you have children? You are their only dad. Do you have a wife? You are her only mate. Do you have pets? You are their only home and shelter. Do you have a mother and father? You are their son. They don't have another 'you' at home, to see and talk to and delight in, when you are away from them. Are there people in your immediate vicinity who obviously need a hand up? the homeless? scared kids? forgotten old folks? battered women? runaway kids? shut-ins? people with AIDS?
If we are going to declare that the secret to life is in the heart, then wouldn't the open heart see these needs, and move to reach them with something?
who do you think is more grateful for the meal you put before them, or the coat you bring them, or the hour you come to visit them, or the ride you give them---Maharaji? or that huddled form, over there,?
Do you realize how many hungry people just one of Maharaji's watches would feed? How about all of them?
How many homeless people the sale of his houses would provide homes to, if sold and the price distributed?
how much transportation--to doctors, jobs, school, volunteer action his cars would provide, if they were liquidated and the sums divided among the needy, deserving and sincere?
and the yacht, sanford. What would the expense of owning that yacht be able to do, if it was put toward the truly suffering? The gulfstream V? The helicopter?
what becomes of all of it if he dies tonight? where would it go, and why? and who would do it? and us--what would we do?
have you seen his brother's site lately, sandy? Over there, they are doing diaster relief. Yes. Satpal has held public office and is dispatching his minions to go and take care of the refugees of a terrible, devastating natural disaster. Theyre handing out clothing and food and medicine and creating shelter for tens of thousands of ordinary humans in their time of despair.
You can bet his brother would never do such a thing.
turn away sandy. walk your own life. be yourself only.use your innate qualities for poeple who need you. not waste your time on that guy in malibu who doesnt know you and couldnt care less what happens to you.
be what you started out to be--a person,“not needing to lean on and hide behind a heroic fictional character to bolster my position”
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:12:34 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Bilbo
Subject: You assume the name of a fictional hero and call
Message:
me self-righteous. If I was a hobbit, I'd sue yer ass for impersonating one. If you read my posts, then you would know I don't think I'm so innocent.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:31:54 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: A sincere answer from an ex-premie
Message:
Shppie,

I don't know why you presume that Micheal takes your point of view on the scriptures and on Noah in particular. I think this one issue is to sensitive a thing to ask anyone to coin and opinion from it.

Why are you asking such a question?

It looks to me that you are trying to justify the apparent fact that someone who claims to be god incarnate have a lot of personal conflicts that he can not resolve. Alcholisim is not the only issue here, though to you it looks that way.

It seems that you are trying to justify this kind of habit and by proposing that it maybe still OK is no more than saying that this is a 'Lila', and that there is a higher purpose that can explain the real motives.

What I see in you is that you are in real conflict at present as a person and you are looking for execuses 'not to' proceed. Because it is really earth shattering to face the truth and wake up to the lie that you have lived in for so long. OK forget about Jim, Nigel, bill, Rick, me and all the other morons that get a kick out of you. I am not asking you to change or stop believing in what you do, you can do that until eternity, but do it as someone that is 100% convinced and certain of it.

To be honest, you are standing on shaky grounds, I suggest you make your move before it is too late.

Ofcourse I could be wrong and Michael may answer.

Look after yourself.

Salam

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:26:08 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Another question for you please, Michael
Message:
I am reposting this with your name on it in case you missed it the first time. I have laready gotten alot of flak from the usual suspects as I await your answer. Looking forward to it.
Sincerely and serious as a heart attack,
Sanford
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:47:33 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: You seem desperate
Message:
Why would you care if Michael thought Maharaji was a drunk Noah, all raggedy and rotten, but still carrying out God's will? You know, you really should have caught on by now that all these concepts you have about Maharaji come from you, and nothing he, himself, has staked a claim on.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:11:21 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I am understandably curious
Message:
Why would you care if Michael thought Maharaji was a drunk Noah, all raggedy and rotten, but still carrying out God's will? You know, you really should have caught on by now that all these concepts you have about Maharaji come from you, and nothing he,
himself, has staked a claim on. -Jerry

We all have pasts and memories and mental associations when something enters our lives. This was some of mine, I know Jer.
We all work from where we are at to get where we are going.
And you can get HERE from anywhere, right? That's all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:21:56 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: I am understandably curious
Message:
Well, maybe you should re-examine the way you got HERE, y'know --what a long strange trip it's been?

There's always time to change the road you're on, as the song goes, whatever song that is; I don't rightly remember.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:15:05 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: yes prem hit his 'premies' shp
Message:
He had the staff line up at the malibu house and walked down the aisle hitting them in the stomach one by one.
One instructer told me the story. He was in that line.

BY the way neither prem or his dad believed in god.
You might, but things you have said here go contrary to that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 23:41:22 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Exegete
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Setting straight the Noah story.
Message:
SHP, if you go back and read the story, you'll find that Noah got drunk after the whole ark thang (and I want to go on record as saying that this whole Noah story is a myth and not historical fact; there is no ship big enough to carry two of all the creatures on the planet 'clean and unclean.'). So, technically, Noah got smashed after he did 'his mission, his calling' as you called it. Maybe you should pick up your dusty ol' KJV and read this stuff before you start quoting it.
I have my doubts about the ark being discovered; from what I understand, those little 'ark safaris' have yet to return with any hard evidence.

Does God use drunken, abusive jerks? Yes, but only after they haved sobered up!

I believe I can respond to this post because I am a Michael D. :)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:51:52 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mickey the Exegete
Subject: Setting straight the Noah story.
Message:
Michael:

The Noah story is a story of the longing to be 'safe from the storm.' It might be an allegorical reference to a real event, or a reference to a recurring human theme. At any rate it should be fairly obvious at this point that if there is a modern Noah, a way for us to be carried over the raging waters, then Maharaji it ain't. That particular boat only has one person on it. Everyone else is, or soon will be, swimming.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:14:36 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Mickey the Exegete
Subject: Setting straight the Noah story.
Message:
Before or after, he was wrong to bust his dad for tying one on.
After a gig like that, he was entitled to chill out. I think you got the letter of the law and missed the spirit of it, my brother. You have tried to remove the speck in my eye and have revealed the beam in yours. That happens to scholars alot. No hard feelings. I understand. Been there, done that.

God can and does use all kinds of people in all states of consciousness - drunk and sober - whatever else you may think.
I know some pretty nice folks who happen to like to drink alot who are very saintly, and I know some teetotalers who are tightassed, selfish, self-righteous, greedy bastards. Go figure.
I think God's criteria for a useful vessel has more to do with what is in their heart, what is their motivation, than what they are putting into themselves.

How about:

'He will take the foolish things of this world to confound the wise and prudent'. Chew on that one, oh man of the cloth.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:37:43 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Setting straight the Noah story.
Message:
You've missed it once again, Sandy. Look, it is time for you to stop quoting Hebrew and Christian scriptures here until you begin to read them again. Didn't you state in a post below that you stopped reading once you received 'knowledge?' Does this cover the Bible, too? Look, Noah DID screw up in that story, as did most of the Patriarchs. But you need to realize that M is not doing God's will; he is just a fraud. Don't try to get me to imagine what it was like in first century Palestine or any other goofy little exercise; You have been reading here long enough to start some self examination and move on.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:22:24 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: maharaji
Message:
He's a drunk, shp. Time to face facts. He isn't God or one of God's servants or spiritual or any of that stuff. Just a drunk.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 22:11:38 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Read it again, sam
Message:

For as long as I knew him, Maharaji never drank at programs nor was he ever drunk when he was on stage.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 23:03:09 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: The key word, Mili, is 'countless'...
Message:

I saw him drunk countless times in the privacy of his residence, at restaurants, and at parties. During these bouts of drunkenness, he became loud and critical about everything and everyone around him, often slurring invectives at premies who had been serving him selflessly and tirelessly for years.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:37:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Yes, good question .... and how about Santa Claus?
Message:
Michael,

Picking up on shp's post I, too, feel nothing but sadness that Maharaji is likely NOT god in human form and that therefore there's probably no really good reason for surrendering my life to him. Far from liberating, this prospect is making it exceedingly difficult for me to throw myself in any religious direction. Frainkly, I'm at a loss and I'm sure you feel this way too.

But, shp's account of Noah raises some truly interesting questions. First, I confess that I did once question the story of Noah's ark (I'm sure you've heard it) but take note of shp's assurance that it 'really did happen'. Isn't that something? And isn't that exactly why this forum is so addictive?

But anyway, along the lines of shp's inquiry I'm wondering if you've ever considered Maharaji's alcoholISM or even alcohol HABIT in the context of Santa himself. That Santa drinks is self-evident, I'd say. Look at his nose, hear his laugh. The guy drinks, there's no question about it. And this doesn't seem to be a little problem in Mr. Claus' life. He lives in virtual isolation almost all year-round. That can't be healthy. And though he might sober up before flying he doesn't fly often -- once a year I think -- and I'm given to believe he lands in bizarre places tries, if at all possible, to conduct his 'business' in furtive stealth forays into peoples' private homes.

The point is that here too is a holy man, cherished world wide by hosts of 'wittow wuns', yet he drinks, no doubt about it. Did you ever consider the possibility that Maharaji, like Santa, is really just doing it 'My Way'?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:59:15 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not to mention the fact that the North Pole is
Message:
melting. Real bummer I'm sure. The basement must really be a mess. Believe what you will, Jim. There have always been folks like both of us down through history. Let's see what happens as time goes by. In the meantime, I'm waiting for Michael's answer.

I bet it really pisses you off that someone else on the site is seen as more of an authority on the subject than you yourself would like to be seen. You are into the juice, man, placing yourself right in the path of any energy exchange to vamp off it. You prove my point by butting into a question I have for someone else. Like the overgrown spoiled child that you are, you constantly seek to be the center of attention. Why don't you be a good boy and respect others the way you want to be respected?

I still think you'd be an asshole, premie or not. You prove it every time. Hey, weren't you going to ingore me? Asshole and hypocrite you are. Why don't you shut up and observe for a change? Without the ability to communicate compassionately, your intelligence and intellect are worthless and useless to all but your own masterbatory ego-laden personality.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:08:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Nice try, shppie
Message:
Tell us about Noah, shp.

By the way, I'm doing a project for school on Merlin. I heard he was a Perfect Master. Got anything?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:39:07 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: stupid is as stupid does, Jim
Message:
I'd rather be a kind moron than a vile intellectual.
But I've been blessed with both kindness and a good intellect.
You are just jealous. Have another Dewar's and read on. The truth about you will set you free, too.

As George W. Bush would say (something like):

'Jim, you need to work on your personalabality to become more personababble, so you could communicatate in a more understandabable way and git yer point acrost, as we say back in Midland, Texas.'

As for telling you about Noah, you wouldn't listen now and you probably wouldn't have listened then either.

And I have to let ExTex know that you are at it again...as in:

Tell US about Noah, shp. (my caps).

You are still hiding behind your imaginary Group, eh? Classic bully, you need some followers. Maybe you are so pissed at Maharaji because you share some of the same human traits you criticize him for having...It's always especially hard on folks to criticize other folks who share similar traits. Maybe that's why you are so vociferous. You want so badly to be God. You are, but your problem is that you don't respect the presence in everyone else. Anyway, cheers Jim. Have a great evening. My goat's tied up and you can't get him right now. Maybe later.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:07:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Please, shp, tell us about ALL the Masters
Message:
Come on, shp, why not just unload all that heavy 'information' once and for all, huh? Who are all the Masters you know of? We got Jesus, Maharaji, Buddha, Moses. Now we got Noah. But come on, shp, there have to be hundreds. Don't hold out, bro'.

We're in a new millenium, remember. This ain't gonna be like the last one.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:20:30 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Who's been 'thread hopping' again...Jimbinimbo!
Message:
We're in a new millenium, remember. This ain't gonna be like the last one. -Jim Heller

I could not have said it better myself. Keep reading that last quote of yours....

And who is the 'us' you are constantly referring to?
Do you have other personalities living in there besides Jim Heller? Maybe what you need is an old fashioned exorcism.
Sorry I cannot help you there.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:21:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Wipe that smile off your face, you looser
Message:
Shp,

Fact: No one here respects you. If I'm wrong, I'll stand corrected. Maybe someone thinks you're good for more than a premie laugh track.

Fact: You have no where else in the world where you can go and talk about your fat, greasy hamster who, you believe, is God con carne. You can't talk openly on-line that's for sure because your cult doesn't accomodate discussion. You can't even find out the email addresses of your fellow cult members on ELK unless you have a great excuse to petition the webmaster. Besides that, there's nothing, nowhere.

Oh sure, I guess you could go to the free Sunday 'feast' at your local Krishna temple and maybe find a couple of other aging hippies who might listen to you for half a minute or so. But, really, even they don't like Maharaji. No one does except for your fellow cult members and, like I say, you can't talk with them. You might be allowed to but you're sure not supposed to.

Fact: This website is a vital, dynamic opinion and information clearing house about the Maharaji cult. Many people share many meaningful thoughts and facts about many issues relevant to this cult. You, however, are not one of these people. Rather, you have chosen to reduce your contribution here to sheer buffoonery by your stubborn, hippie-dippie avoidance of reason and simpel common sense. This is all you're worth, shp, cheap, comic entertainment. You have marginalized yourself in the only open discussion that's ever taken place about the man you call your spiritual leader and then some. That's your choice. You wear the consequences.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:58:38 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Wrong on this, Jim. I respect shp. I always have
Message:
Fact: No one here respects you. If I'm wrong, I'll stand corrected...

shp and I are old email buddies going way back to those pre-historic Fred Flinstone days when I was just another barney on the block.

Jim, can't you see it for yourself? Man, it's so obvious to me. I followed Maharaji as my Lord and Master for years until I found out that he was a self-absorbed alcoholic fraud. Really, I thought the world of Maharaji, but he is not a holy man by a long shot. He has no scrupples at all.

But, Jim, do you know who has consistently shown themselves to be of high moral character and to be well read of the scriptures and extremely knowledgable of all things spiritual?

Do you know, Jim, do ya?

That's right, Jim, it's shp. Poor old shp, the martyr that gets sand kicked in his face by every bully here at the beach. And he turns the other cheek again and again.

Jim, I, unlike you, have suffered from having a spiritual vacuum in my life and I guess because shp is the most spiritual being on this Forum, with the exception of Padre Mickey, I now have a new spiritual master in my life and it feels real good, Jim. I've put all my trust in my new Master and I know that everything in my life will be A-Ok. What goes around comes around.

Ok, Jim, enough of the spiritual words because I know such talk is only wasted on you, my heathen brother. But, would you be interested in buying some really high tech light bulb savers to to save electricity - you know, like help the environment?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:30:35 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Those mischieveous boys are at it again behind
Message:
the cyber barn, snickering and telling each other stupid little things that make them laugh so hard they piss their pants. Little Roger, Jim and Mickey, at it again. Hanging with the clergy, I guess it's OK as long as a preist is with them....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 06:17:56 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: shp
Subject: shp, don't have to stay out in the cold forever
Message:
shp, you don't have to stay out in the cold forever just because you've given us (yes, I'll speak for the collective US) hell again and again with your inane posts.

But, please don't be the contrarian and continue to love and follow Maharaji as your Lord and Master and God Incarnate and whatever else you want to believe he is along with the lineage of the other thousands of Perfect Masters throughout the ages.

No, don't do that just to spite us.

No, shp, wake up and smell the coffee. We've been very fortunate to have Michael Dettmers provide a very candid and up close and personal perspective of Maharaji, the human being, the non-God Incarnate. Well, that is unless you just want to chalk it all up to the magic of Lila ala Foss, D. & R. Larkin's(1978)research entitled, 'Worshipping the absurd: the negation of social causality among the followers of the Guru Maharaj Ji. Sociological Analysis'

It's ok, shp. You can give up on Maharaji. We probably still won't be friends, but at least we can stop arguing about whether Maharaji is God or not and you will no longer have feel compelled to slip us your satsang because you are trying to save our souls and return us to the flock.

It's ok, shp. Just let it go. You can still meditate. You can still believe in God. You are just letting go of Maharaji who didn't turn out to be who he led us to believe he was - God. It's no biggie.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:28:36 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Oh, to be in such exalted company!! LOL nt
Message:
Very good, Roger
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:33:44 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Actually, we are all in great debt to you, Mickey
Message:
Seriously, I cannot battle my way out of a wet paper sack when it comes to a spiritual quote debate. And shp and others come here and lay down the Bible rap and other books and it sounds good, it sounds Holy and most of us don't have a clue.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:40:40 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: They usually don't have a clue, either! nt
Message:
hey roger
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:07:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I cna type i'n laughong so mcu h! (nt)
Message:
ggggggg
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:38:02 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's l-o-s-e-r, stupid!
Message:
As William Shakespeare once said:

'I think thou protesteth too much.'

If I was what you said and nothing more, you would not be huffing and puffing so much to retaliate. 'Looser', that's what you need to get when you talk to me and everybody else around here, you big old stuffed and puffed shirt.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:52:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: You're like something stuck between my teeth
Message:
Shp,

If I keep playing with you it's definitely not because I see you as some sort of 'worthy opponent' or something. You're nothing. Your ideas are worthless.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:26:52 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I could say something very appropriate and to my
Message:
upmanship advantage about being stuck between your teeth, but I won't. But that's exactly what you can do, if you catch my drift. Sweet dreams.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 18:23:03 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Mili, mili, where's Mili when you need him??
Message:
Big up to you Michael, this one post alone has created some kind of closure for a friend of mine, but I am seriosly tempted to put this post up to every visiting premie when they start spinning the usual responses.

For myself this really does complete the picture of him as a person, not that there was any doubt, but the detail is excellent and very fair, which just increases its power.
The guy is completely lost, the fact that he had no idea how people were different around him compared to the way they were in real life, just says so much.
If it wasn't for the damage he has caused you'd have to feel very sad for him, the guy is completely lost, no wonder he's so into possessions, what else has he got, and can you imagine how he could ever break out of that bubble he's in, impossible to imagine.

In my opinion what we need to do here now is really work out the details of how we all fell for the spin so easily, although we have worked out the details of our backgrounds and the vulnerabilities that came with them, and the use of keywords and thought control patterns in his talks, the programming within the premie communities, I don't think we've looked at the performance side of gm hardly at all especially the way he used his vulnerability and shyness to give the impression that he was sensitive and cared.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:08:07 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: What's your problem, Ham?
Message:
Ever try meditating on the Knowledge? It still feels good.

That's the litmus test, you know.

I could read this junk a hundred times. You can tell me he's BAD, BAD, BAD as many times you want. But when it comes down to it, Knowledge feels good and Maharaji is spot on and fun to watch.

He delivers the goods. I guess you could say I am one happy customer.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 01:19:11 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili the 'spiritual consumer'
Message:
He delivers the goods. I guess you could say I am one happy customer

That was very crass, Mili. Very crass indeed.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 22:16:49 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: C'mon Mili, drop the premie pose for a second
Message:
Ever try meditating on the Knowledge? It still feels good.
That's the litmus test, you know.
I could read this junk a hundred times. You can tell me he's BAD, BAD, BAD as many times you want. But when it comes down to it, Knowledge feels good and Maharaji is spot on and fun to watch.
He delivers the goods. I guess you could say I am one happy customer.

Actually mili had a great meditation this morning thanx, but so what, has got nothing to do with him, in fact he's said loads of times you need him to experience knowledge, so obviously I wasn't experiencing knowledge anyway according to him.

No the litmus test is that if he's the source of this wonderful experience don't you find it remotely odd that he's an abusive alcoholic, who is so naive he doesn't even realize that premies aren't being themselves around him, so much so he's prepared to do group therapy with a non-premie trainer?? You don't find this even peculiar??
Forget your meditation experience, I'm not denying that, talking just gm here, or are you like the premie I know who when I asked her 'say hypothetically that gm had murdered someone, would that get you thinking??', 'I don't know'. That's cult thinking pure & simple mili.

And as for gm being fun, FUN, are you serious, you need to get out more.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:34:51 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: quartus@postmaster.co.uk
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: An unanswered question
Message:
Michael, I'm asking this as simply and straightforwardly as I can, and would appreciate an answer, as and when you get the time:

To your knowledge, has Maharaji (or his direct family) ever been the recipient of funds/donations that were procured by Elan Vital UK?


(my email address is above, if you consider a public disclosure to be inappropriate at this time).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:14:59 (GMT)
From: Tim Goulding
Email: timgitti@indigo
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: More answers to your questions
Message:
Hi Mike...thanx so much for your revealing insights that come as no great surprise. What really was a turning point for me was a conference in Wembley where I was representing Ireland .It was only the second close-up vaguely intimate glimpse I had of the man I had been programmed to believe was the next best thing to God Incarnate...and he spent a coupla hours with us just being incredibly abusive and confrontational. Of course I went home and thought it was all my fault but luckily my intuition told me that there was something wrong. I never ever found any proof that M was a caring person or was sensitive to the people around him.In fact when I thought about it I didn't think he was a very pleasant person at all and that the so called love he had was a self-projection of us premies.
I cannot reccomend enough the writings of J.Krishnamurti for ex-premies to free themselves of self projections...he was a man who was put in role similar to M's but managed to see through it .Poor M has a lot ahead of him if only people would let him.
I made some of my best friends through the whole fiasco though.
Greetings all from South-West Ireland.
Tim
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 22:44:12 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Tim Goulding
Subject: Dr Strangely Strange I presume...?
Message:
Sorry if I've got the wrong guy, Tim, but - well - it's your name and country, for a start, and I remember someone once telling me about a premie link with the aforementioned band.

Hey - never mind Michael Dettmers, folks, we might just have a real counter-cultural celebrity in our midst...

So if you don't ming me asking, Tim, did you or did you not participate in the weirdly wondrous musical ensemble wot made 'Kip of the Serenes' and 'Heavy Petting' back in the days before time began and Margie hit the West?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 23:10:39 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Nigel
Subject: Dr Strangely Strange I presume...?
Message:
Hi Nigel..you hit the nail the nail on the head...Strangely strange but oddly normal as we used to sing..in fact still do..made the 'difficult third album' in 1997 called 'Alternative Medecine' and dream of dreams I have just launched my 1st solo album this year called ' Midnight Fry' with a track that has overtones of Prem Nagar called 'O-Mane'...plenty of ethnic rap,birdsong and crowd noise plus a Cuban conga player and a caste of thousands....It sort of extruded the Hellish Experience of being couped up with a group of fanatical WPC guys in a dysentery ridden campsite into a rosy stroll in the park..such is the power of selective memory and music.
Nice that you remembered us old critters..best wishes..Tim
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 23:31:26 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Tim G
Subject: Wow - I've come over all starstruck!
Message:
Remembering those teenage years in my bedroom struggling to finger-pick along to 'Friends greet you on the way... Say 'there you go...'

Hey, I'm really made up you dropped by on the forum, Tim, and under your real name. Great stuff! I'll keep an eye out for the album - and many thanks for the update on what you're doing. (Hey, why do the DSS reissues call you 'Jim' Goulding? - now that's Strangely Strange indeed..)

Is it raining over there, too? I seem to remember Irish rain mostly falls horizontally in the southern extremes ...

Best,
Nigel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 19:50:23 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: exprems
Subject: More answers to your questions
Message:
Hi Exprempals
Tim G here, just forgot to put a '.ie' on my address. Would love to partake in the ongoing dialogues and welcome any communications.For many years it has not been an issue but on reading some of the contributions I see that a lot of people have been quite badly hurt and conned. I have to say that look back on most of it with good laugh and think of the fun times as well as being aware that I have been as self-deluded as anyone.
So now it's upwards and onwards or at least onwards [ideals are brutal things]
Fraternal greetings
Tim G......timgitti@indigo.ie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:17:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: 'look back on most of it with good laugh' ...
Message:
... and what of the poor suckers that are STILL being conned into the 'Great King' (Maharaj)'s game?

A good laugh seeing others STILL being sucked into it?
Seeing some of those others ending up suicidal?

A good laugh was it????

.
.
.
.
.

LAUGH, will you?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 23:24:25 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: cq
Subject: 'look back on most of it with good laugh' ...
Message:
No, cq, after reading some of this site [only just found it ] I release it was/is a more serious business and as I said a lot of people have been seriously hurt and taken advantage of.So I won't laugh for them and sincerely would like to be of use. That said you must admit there were some absolutely surreal moments. It's a bit like looking back on a disasterous camping holiday,
I take your point though.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 19:30:09 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: No hard feelings. Just touched a nerve.
Message:
There y'go.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 13:12:48 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Tim G
Subject: 'look back on most of it with good laugh' ...
Message:
I can relate to the surreality of it all, Tim. The absurdity, the sheer bloody Life-of-Brian-ness of it all. I think there's no end of approriate responses in retrospect. Like cq, I think there's room for righteous anger - especially on discovering the cult is still in business and recruiting new suckers (something I was wholly unware of until I discovered this website).

And I guess on a personal level, the presence or absence of anger will depend on one's own experiences, and to be able to 'look back with a good laugh' is merely good fortune and certainly nothing to be ashamed of - providing you're not denying the harm that's been done to many others (which you clearly are not).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:43:21 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: More answers to your questions
Message:
Michael:

I'm mostly kidding about the Cardinal Woolsey crack below, but there is something rather sinister about enabling an addicted sovereign by sort of merging your identity with his. Woolsey eventually ran afoul of Henry VIII over Anne and paid with his life. There was something inevitable about it. Sovereignty is not really meant to be 'shared' or 'merged.' Your contributions are not only helping exes and current premies become clearer, but they're also helping me in my little project to understand charisma. Very interesting too.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:05:05 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: More answers to your questions
Message:
Hi Michael -
IMHO, you are describing the behavior of an alcoholic when you talk about Maharaji's drinking. I KNOW they would call it that in AA, although some people think the AA definition is too narrow. But the binge drinking and pattern of verbal abuse you related is SO typical of alcoholics. I honestly do not know how you could stand it for so long - possibly you were inoculated against it because of lack of previous experience with this pattern.

My dad was an alcoholic and never drank before or during work, OR before he had to fly, and always passed his flight physical, so you cannot really tell by that measurement. Lots of practicing alcoholics function fine at work - at least until the physical effects of their drinking catch up with them.

I have heard premies defend Maharaji's drinking on here by saying things like 'well, I like to have a few drink sometimes too.' I don't have a problem with this, but what you have described is not 'having a few drinks'. I got involved with Maharaji to get AWAY from people who used alcohol and drugs to excess, and, again, I would have left a lot earlier if I had known that Maharaji had this kind of drinking problem.

This is a huge issue for those of us who grew up in alcoholic families - at least for those of us who have come to terms with it.

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 19:48:53 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Answers to questions? or just more questions?
Message:
The Maha (or Maharaji, as Michael Dettmers calls him, ... and I wonder why, since it was never his real name) has apparently had a fairly well-documented problem with alcohol.

Yet there are premies who post on this site who claim that he kept us AWAY from drugs! (and don't try and tell ME that alcohol isn't a drug).

You're right. It is a HUGE issue for those of us (myself included) who grew up in families with a parent/prominent member of that family who succumbed to alcoholism.

This so-called 'Master', - pardon me - this so-called ex-'Lord of the Universe' has had a problem (maybe still has) with THE major drug that kills far more than
most other drugs combined.

No doubt his most loyal (and egotistic) defenders will attempt to absolve him of any blame whatsoever (not that there's blame to be attached to being a victim of addiction to alcohol) - but not all alcoholics claim to be (or to have been) the 'Lord of the Universe'!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:07:07 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Should have said 'You are describing...
Message:
...the behavior of an alcoholic'.

Gotta remember to preview my posts - sorry.

[Note from Forum Administrator: the missing phrase has now been restored to its proper position in the previous post. All part of the service ;)]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 12:52:02 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Maharaji's respect for ex-premies
Message:
I think Maharaji wasn't angry with you because he finally realised he'd met someone who wasn't going to kowtow to him. In effect, Maharaji would have more respect for you than all the people who fawn and drool over him.

Like a bad marriage, Maharaji will find it easy to abuse and berate the 'devotees' because they are easy prey in his eyes. A bit like a wife/husband abusing their spouse because they feel safe to do so.

He knew exactly why you couldn't put up with the nonsense and realised you could not be manipulated. You were out of his sphere of personal influence. Of course he coould have no argument with you because he knew you were speaking the truth.

In this sense, Maharaji is remarkably human. A spoilt child will abuse those people who it has learned he/she can abuse but will always hold some adults in great respect because the child will know those people won't stand for any nonsense.

A final thought is this; Maharaji probably secretly has more respect for the ex-premies than the actual premies. The ex-premies are like those adults who are out of the spoilt child's influence.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 12:13:54 (GMT)
From: Bill Burke
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: prem describes Bill Patterson.
Message:
At the time Bill Patterson became 'president' of 'the mission',
prem rawat talked to him. Here is the quote from Bill on what rawat said.

'You're just dumb enough that you wont fall for a lot of
high-falutin' sophisticated things. You wont understand them.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:03:40 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Bill Burke
Subject: how are you doin'? didn't see your posts lately(nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 06:32:56 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: the alcoholism
Message:
I remember as far back as the mid-seventies hearing stories like PAM's finding empty bottles of booze under maharaji's bed. Of course, at that time, I didn't believe a word.

Then when I found this site, maharaji's drinking was brought up time and again. I'd long since slipped away from the cult but hadn't really sorted out how much mind programming had occurred.

I really couldn't accept it as the truth that maharaji drank often enough to matter, because none of the stories were undeniable. But these stories from you, Michael, are undeniable to me, and I now accept it as the truth.

What a sad, pathetic fuck is maharaji. I'm sorry, Michael, I never knew the guy, so he wasn't a friend. Just some stranger that tricked me and alot of others.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:05:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Let's keep the pot and alcohol in context
Message:
I'm sorry but I'm getting a little uncomfortable with the way everyone's jumping onto this 'alcoholic' or 'pothead' bandwagon. For myself, the main point is that these habits, like his philandering and venality, prove that he's a fraud. He isn't a 'Master' of peace and he certainly isn't no 'Lord of the Universe'. He's just another religious rogue running a racket.

You know, if Maharaji was a professor, say, or maybe some kind of businessman, perhaps a 'successful private investor', I none of these indulgences would be that alarming. It's only when you consider who he presents himself as that these foibles take on special significance.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:42:12 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: doesn't that go without saying?
Message:
Yeah, Jim, I agree completely. I really don't give a shit who drinks, or drinks too much. Not only isn't it any of my business but it also doesn't impair genius in many cases.

When I was a premie in the 70's, I really, really bought it that he was God. I ate that one up for some reason. Of course, if he was God then it meant everything else was true also.

Most of the evidence I looked for, to support that maharaji was God, got validated. Principally, watching and listening to him at programs. Finding out this wasn't true wasn't an easy digestion. If I was incorrect in beginning to disbelieve that maharaji was God, the consequences would be severe.

So like a mini-shp I deeply questioned if it was possible for someone to be God and still like money and yell at people. Who's to say, right?

But heavy drinking really seals the deal. Not only because it's another nail in the coffin of fraudulence but because you can't be 'spiritual' and also be drunk.

Now I tend to think being 'spiritual' is a fantasy, like you. So what I mean, is that you can't even pretend to be spiritual and be drunk.

That's why it carries so much importance for me. And I think it's an enormous handle for this whole thing. The guy's a fucking drunk. He can lie and steal and everything else and still manage to change the subject.

Perhaps it means so much to me because if I had seen clear evidence of this while I was still a premie, it's the one thing that probably would have made me realize that he's a fraud.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 05:15:30 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: More questions to your answers
Message:
Michael,

This is the first time that I have re-read on of your posts several times, I guess I am coming around to accepting that you are just another person. Excuse the English but can you please explain this statement.

His openness to this idea was bolstered.

Do you mean he did not support the idea, or did he support you but with resentment?

I am not sure who the other two organizers where, but I assume that they where top of the line. In total there were seven (including you and his wife) top brass presents, not your ordinary run off the mill premies. Why did he have such a difficulty accepting what was happening? Did he feel that he was becoming more human which is a contradiction to his belief of being “a Perfect Master”?

Would you say that that is why he walked out of the room when you were talking to him in private? Was not apparent that the conference will be a failure by him showing this behavior?

Did Will express anything afterwards in private as to what he thought of the whole shimozle?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:37:25 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Salam
Subject: More questions to your answers
Message:
Salam,

By stating that “His openness to this idea was bolstered”, I was acknowledging that Maharaji knew the conference might become confrontational. Given that possibility, he nevertheless supported the idea. His willingness to proceed, despite these normal fears and anxieties, was bolstered because the conference was going to be facilitated by a non-premie professional who was experienced in dealing with these kinds of situations.

I don’t quite follow your questions when you ask “Would you say that that is why he walked out of the room when you were talking to him in private? Was not apparent that the conference will be a failure by him showing this behavior?”

It appears to me that you have collapsed two distinct events into one. When I met with Maharaji in private about his drinking problem, he did not walk out on me while I was speaking. He left only after I had finished saying what I wanted to say. I agree with Sir Dave’s interpretation above about why Maharaji did not respond to what I said.

You ask why Maharaji had such difficulty accepting what was happening, and if Will expressed anything afterwards in private.

Will did not say anything to me or anyone else in private. He is a professional and said whatever he had to say in front of everyone. I was speaking earlier today to one of the conference attendees who reminded me of some of Will and his assistant’s assessments which may shed some light on why Maharaji had such a difficult time.

As part of their preparation, Will’s assistant attended one of Maharaji’s programs in San Francisco just prior to the San Yisidro conference. At one point during the conference, she told Maharaji that she had never seen anybody as loved and respected as she witnessed at that program. And she cautioned Maharaji that, if he didn’t take to heart the enormous responsibility that comes with engendering such love and commitment, he could become very “scary and dangerous.”

Some participants had expressed up front their concern about being fired if they really said what they were feeling. Will commented to Maharaji that, of all the groups he had facilitated, he had never experienced as much fear as was exhibited by our group. He added that, in his opinion, Maharaji had received too much, too soon and that Maharaji really had to start practicing what he preached. Will also alerted Maharaji to the dangers of having so many people so dependent upon him. Maharaji felt very confronted by these comments and perhaps may even have felt betrayed, hence his withdrawal.

Will was aware that the event was, at times, overwhelming for Maharaji. He pointed out that it would take a little time for our nervous systems to digest what had transpired during the two-days. He suggested, therefore, that we take a break from each other and reconvene in three weeks when Maharaji returned from a planned trip to Australia. He also elicited a promise from Maharaji that he would not make any changes in people’s positions during the interval. Two days later, however, Maharaji cancelled the follow-up meeting and immediately fired two of the conference participants.

Michael

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:14:57 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Please!MONEY dispersion,corps. setup,m. assets?(nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 05:05:26 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: WOW!
Message:
That description of the angry berating tendencies exactly pinpoints the behavior that MJ displayed on one occasion, after which I started getting almost unbelievably stressed, like I was being pulled in two. It was the Tucson conference. Remember that anyone?? Michael?

I was there as a special 'privilege,' as it was for shramies and initiators. MJ yelled in the most extraordinary abusive way that really confused me. And then he took the initiators off into another room and abused them some more and I will NEVER forget how they looked when they came out, and made their pathetic attempts to 'spin' the whole thing as 'for their own good.' It was like that part in the Dark Crystal movie where the little podlings have their life essence drained for the dark Skexies to gain immortality, and they turn into these pale, shrunken beings, while their owners become fatter and more hearty.

Shock is different from other kinds of trauma. It needs a very different approach to unravel. I think that I went into shock at that moment in Tucson, and I know, from initiator friends that were there and whom I later talked with when they were exing, that many others did, too.

Anyone else want to unravel a bit of shock?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:50:55 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Tuson torrent of abuse.
Message:
Hi Disculta,
We heard about how prem rawat was 'heavy' with the instructors,
and I have the qoute where he says about a different yelling incident, 'that did me some good' (to get angry).

He was using swear words?
What I also heard he said in that Tucon yell fest was, something like 'I'm on the verge of getting mad' after he had finished blasting them. the instructor said to us 'wow, if he can get any more angry, I dont want to see that!'

Tell us what it was like for you if you will. Did he just start off all angry?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 04:23:50 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Climb Every mountain till you find your dream
Message:
Dear Micheal,

Thank you SO much again for your honesty and integrity.

Is it 3a.m. in the morning where you are? Did you have a good time in London even though it was a business trip?

I am filing all your close encounters with M in a binder so that when my experience of 'knowledge' or meditation gets merged with M I can see the wood from the trees. I have often used that analogy on this forum because it seems if we exes practice meditation we need to constantly do this for at least a whileuntill we disassociate ourselves from him.

I listened to M via satellite again today. It was him speaking in Paris last September I believe. Apart from the fact that 'knowledge'/meditation actually works (most of the time) amongst the repetitive twaddle he often comes out with, I have to admit there were some incites and that he does direct people who continually listen, on the fine line of 'practicing knowledge'/meditating and always has kept his promise of doing this.

The reason I headed this 'Climb Every Mountain' was because it was playing on the radio when I wrote this and I thought it was appropriate was because ALL of us premies and expremies had/have a dream to become, as Hildergard of Bingham said, 'to be feathers on the breath of God' The ways we go about this are sometimes in the wrong direction and sometimes means climbing very steep mountains.

I, personally miss 'the experience of knowledge' very much, but have chosen to give it up until I no longer associate it with M knowing what I now know about his own issues in this 'what can be precious' life.

From my mountain to yours,

Curious George

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 04:10:19 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: You were victimized by an abusive alcoholic
Message:
Michael: Your post makes me both furious and sad. I grew up in a home where both my parents, although they were brilliant, were alcoholics. One of the reasons I eagerly embraced Maharaj Ji (as he was then known), DLM, and the ashram when I was 16 was because I thought K would allow me to escape and transcend those demons. Katie also comes from an alcoholic family. She has said that if she had known M was an alcoholic, she would have left even earlier. I share that sentiment wholeheartedly. I joined a premie house and a few months later an ashram, in part because my alcoholic father had committed suicide at that time. The behavior that you describe by M in abusing and berating those closest and most devoted to him is classic alcoholic behavior. I am absolutely disgusted and sickened to hear of it. You were mistreated, and you shouldn't have been.

This bit of information resonates deeply in my psyche, like the information you gave us about PAM's being x rated. I know that I'll have more to say about this as I grasp its import.

Are you having bad dreams?

You are in the process of sorting out your exit from the cult, which I suspect you may never have done. Congratulations.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:02:21 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: everyone
Subject: Also from alchoholic familiy
Message:
My father was an alchoholic and a very successful trial lawyer, I joined DLM at the age of twelve I think in part to find a substitute for my dysfunctional familiy as well as a father substitute ( aka Father Divine and all my 'brothers and sisters' living in the ashrams.) I became a full blown alchoholic and drug addict myself after I left DLM and nearly destroyed myself. I found my way into AA as the result of an intervention and have been sober many years. I became certified as an addictions counselor and worked in that field for a time. I never had a clue however that Maharaj Ji had a drug and alchohol problem till I started reading these posts. The Alcholic Familiy Connection may explain why premies seem to have an endless capacity for enabling and living in denial.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:15:38 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: Also from alchoholic familiy
Message:
Yep. Also from an alcoholic family system. It's eerie how one would seek out the very thing one is also fleeing from! :) I went the ACoA route (Adult Children of Alcoholics). That got to be a bit cultish for my tastes. It died out as a movement in this area due to whatever -- I hear a lot of them migrated into Al-Anon.

And On Anand Ji

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 06:21:43 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: You were victimized by an abusive alcoholic
Message:
And I was going to suggest that he might be the reincarnation of Cardinal Woolsey.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 04:19:37 (GMT)
From: Gorgeous George
Email: None
To: MIke
Subject: that's mighty white of you, mikie
Message:
I think I'll toast it with a shot of cognac.
BTW..You forgot to mention you dressing up as Santa for the kids.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 15:17:13 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Thank you Michael
Message:
Dear Michael,

There was so much alcoholism in my family and extended family that it's absolutely amazing to me that I never suspected Maharaji's problem. I honestly cannot say how I would have reacted had I become aware he was an addict during my time practicing and following him.

His leaving the room when you were speaking to him is clearly a description of someone in big denial, a characteristic of a practicing alcholic.

Last night I happened to watch a Discovery Channel documentary on doomsday cults. I had seen the show before and it included the Jim Jones cult. Yet this time I could see the similarities in the dynamics of how people were brainwashed and abused by Jones and I realized how premies were carefully brainwashed by Maharaji. The similarities are chilling.

With the decline of 'membership' in the US and Europe, I wonder if he's still 'in his cups' these days. The isolation of the Amaroo site is scary to me, considering what Jim Jones did by isolating his followers. A lot of old time premies have expressed to me as recent as two years ago that they wished the premies could 'all live together, away from the world, with Maharaji.'

Thanks for your very clear descriptions of his behavior.

Maharaji's quite an actor, isn't he? I would never have suspected all of this. WOW.

Best, Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:32:33 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thank you Michael
Message:
I, too, would like to thank you for coming forward with all this information. I wish all the die-hard premies would read this. Thanks, and keep on writing.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 03:20:21 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: interesting book/site: 'Treatise on Cosmic Fire'
Message:
http://www.netnews.org/bk/fire/toc.html

I meditated with some people involved with this about 28 years ago. The book itself was very interesting. Apparently transmitted from 'The Tibetan' to Alice Bailey toward the end of the 19th century.

For those who like philosophy...

Peace,

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 03:27:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: interesting book/site: 'Treatise on Cosmic Fire'
Message:
You take this stuff seriously now?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 04:34:51 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Treatise on White Magic
Message:
She also wrote this and many others as well as a Treatise on the Bhagadvad Gita. I expect she and the Gita led a lot of people to M because M sets himself up as the Master that she and the Gita talks about as well as the Mahatmas/great souls.... that rarely exist in this world.

Curious George

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 19:15:23 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Bingo! Jim, check out connection in above post- nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:45:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Sorry, such but that stuff leaves me cold
Message:
I see it all as grown-ups playing in a sandbox. None of that spiritual stuff means anything to me. I think it's all bullocks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:11:17 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes!But read Curious George-he relates it to m.(nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:53:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Okay, got it. A pox on all their ashrams (nt)
Message:
ffffffff
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 03:24:25 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: correction: early 20th century (nt ot)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:32:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is it fair to call Brian Gaudet a bonehead?
Message:
Hello from Singapore

Almost there.

I'm writing this at the beautiful Singapore airport. Soon I'll be in Delhi. I'm looking forward once again to enjoying Hans Jayanti. Life is beautiful.

Brian Gaudet
Edmonton, Canada

Why do I have this strong aversion to people I know acting like they're brain-dead? Brian Gaudet, don't you have anything else going on than Happy Clapper syndrome? Remember the time in Ottawa when you wanted to stop a few of us sitting around joking and just relaxing in the ashram dining room? Remember how you went up to your room, got your big Premie Pacifier (a/k/a Ghetto Blaster), cued up a tape of Maharaji and came down and plugged it in for us? Remember? You got a part of some satsang where Maharaji was telling everyone that not a single word of chit chat should ever cross their lips. Remember that, Brian?

Listen, we all intimidated ourselves and each other that way. In another season -- who knows? -- that could ahve been me acting so earnestly and anti-social. But the fact is, Brian, you behaved like a complete zombie cult-member weenie that day. I'll never forget it.

And look at you today, huh! What have you become?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:03:42 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Is it fair to call Maharaji a criminal?
Message:
You're inciting me, Jim.

I he can't be charged, let's have a trial here on the forum.

You want to be the judge, prosecuting attorney, defense attorney? Since it's my idea, i'll put in my first choice - judge.

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 03:29:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Sure, it's fair
Message:
Maharaji is most definitely a criminal. I'm comfortable saying that. But that wasn't what I was talking about, now was it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 05:31:56 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Steve seeing that you are a judge
Message:
Can you tell me or ask Jim, why does Jim 'thinks' that m is guilty of criminal negligence and what proof or evidence has he got?

Salam-talking-in-the-judge's-ear

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 06:45:01 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Salam
Subject: Steve seeing that you are a judge
Message:
I've asked Jim at least twice, but he seems to ignore the question or slough it off.

Sorry, I'm only a judge, not Jim's boss.

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 09:27:10 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: This court is nillified before it has even started
Message:
What a joke. Anyone speaking about m as a criminal should shut the fuck up. Legally m is inocent unless proven otherwise. Fuck you all that blame him for anything because you can not come up with the slightest shred of evidence to increminate him. Fuck your court. And fuck me too for being such an idiot and a sucker. It all comes to me in the end. My fault for having fallen in the traps of a religious organization that can not be prosecuted. What a shit head.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 15:58:08 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: You've really got a bug up your ass about this
Message:
Don't you?

I personally don't think of Maharaji as being a criminal. He's just a guru doing his guru thing. A priest does his priest thing. Rabbis do that rabbi thing. Y'know? We live in a world where reality and fantasy blend, and these guys are all just the high priests of it. They serve a purpose in it, to cater to the needs of those of us living in that world. In time, some of us learn to diferentiate more readily between fantasy and reality, and no longer need the services of those who are placed upon pedestals in that blended world we were once lost in. That doesn't mean we need to bring them to trial after we've seen through the dreams they spin. At best, maybe we can help others to see the dream for what it is, or nightmare as the case with Maharaji has turned out to be. IMHO, Maharaji, at his worst, is nothing more than lousy dream merchant.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:22:09 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: A bug among other things.
Message:
Sorry I got pissed off. But I believe in putting my money where my mouth is. All the talk about m being a criminal turns me on.

I guess the reason it AINT gonna happen is because of:

Religious freedom is granted by the U.S. Constitution and various federal and state statutes. The First Amendment embodies two religious rights: 'the free exercise clause' and 'the freedom from establishment clause.' The federal government is prohibited by the Constitution from interfering with the free exercise of religion. It also is entrusted with protecting the public welfare. Often these two responsibilities conflict. The First Amendment does not protect criminal behavior when the laws in question are religiously neutral and apply to everyone. Since churches and their professional staff are increasingly being held accountable for their actions or their failure to act, it is important to be aware of potential legal liabilities not protected by the First Amendment. The following are some common areas that everyone involved in the enterprise of ministry should note.
Licensing for Religious Counselors
Each state has statutes that regulate and license counselors under a variety of professional designations and titles, define counseling activities, and establish the educational, experiential, supervisorial, and ethical requirements for those who use counseling titles. Most states exempt religious counselors from licensing if their counseling activities fall within the parameters of their congregations. 'Religious counselor' is a broad term and includes clergy, religious educators, church administrators, and church workers functioning in official capacities such as deacon or elder. Religious counselors must be careful how they designate themselves, since such terms as 'pastoral counselor' are often regulated and require licensing. Religious counselors must not state explicitly or implicitly that they are 'pastoral counselors' unless they have been licensed.
Most states do not require licensing for religious counselors whose duties include counseling; however, the counseling should always include a spiritual element. It is important to be aware of the licensing exemptions since they limit the manner in which religious counselors can advertise or promote their counseling activities. Religious counselors need to have competent counseling skills and at the same time indicate that their counseling is not equivalent to that of state-regulated counseling professionals. To be exempt from licensing requirements, the religious counselor should be ordained, licensed, or otherwise recognized by his or her denomination. The religious counselor should be under the supervision of his or her denomination, and the denomination must have the authority to set standards for clergy and to apply disciplinary procedures when the standards are breached. The religious counselor should conduct counseling activities as part of his or her regular duties and not use or imply the use of any regulated titles unless he or she is licensed to do so.
The legal issues surrounding counseling are complicated. The religious counselor has a duty to maintain confidence, to obey applicable state laws and statutes, and to inform potential victims of threatened or continued harm by the counselee. Often these responsibilities conflict. Regarding confidentiality, each state has statutes regarding individual privacy. The federal government prohibits the surreptitious recording of private counseling sessions without the consent and knowledge of all participants in the sessions.
Since seminary students are generally unordained and unlicensed, they will not qualify for the exemption. Regarding counseling activities, the seminary student should indicate that he or she is not a religious counselor but a pastoral care trainee.

Salam-with-an-ass-full-of-things

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:21:15 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Religious counselor?
Message:
What does any of this have to do with Maharaji, Salam? Not a damned thing, as far as I can see. Unless you've got evidence that Maharaji is an unlicenced 'religious counselor', I'd say you were on a fast track to nowhere with this argument.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 15:43:16 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Salam
Subject: This court is nillified before it has even started
Message:
Good post, Salam.

I especially agree with the first two sentences. I don't like being teased.

When Jim says that m is guilty of criminal negligence, he is committing mental masturbation - m is guilty in Jim's head. Jim should know better than to lead people on. We're living in a real world, Jim. If you're expressing what's happening in your thoughts only, please say so explicitly.

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:31:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: You guys are behaving stupidly -- grow up!
Message:
What part of this don't you understand:

In my opinion, m is a criminal.

In my opinion, m won't ever be prosecuted for defrauding people for a number of reasons.

These two statements are far from mutually inconsistent. It's the real world, baby. People get away with shit for all sorts of reasons every day all over the place.

Now, having said that, if YOU think you can find some prosecutor somewhere who'll charge him, go for it. I'm just saying I can't see it, that's all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:07:25 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You guys are behaving stupidly -- grow up!
Message:
I am not asking wether they are mutually consistent or not.

I am asking how did you get to the conclusion that m can be a criminal?

A criminal is someone that broke some law. What law has m broken?

All what we have aginst him is personal information. He's got family, drink, pothead and personal problems. Otherwise I can look at him as a successful (or maybe lucky) bussinessman. so he's got cars, planes, boats and homes, so what?

Where is the breach of the law? Tell me, you are the lawyer. Come on, this issue concernes everyone, if you have a case say it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 19:54:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: You guys are behaving stupidly -- grow up!
Message:
A criminal is someone that broke some law. What law has m broken?

I wouldn't be surprised if he's broken many. But one thing I know for sure is that he's defrauded people. Whether or not fraud is a criminal matter, rather than just civil, is largely a prosecutorial discretionary call but, like I said, I don't know of any western jurisdiction that would ever prosecute him. That doesn't mean he hasn't broken the law though.

'Criminal negligence' is made out when someone does something that they know or should know is likely to cause serious harm to others and either intends that result or is reckless as to whether or not it ensues. I think that Maharaji's anti-mind brainwashing, coupled with the rigours of the rest of the cult structure, in the '70s at least, fits the bill. Again, I can't imagine any prosecutor doing anything about it.

Okay, that's it. I'm not going to repeat myself again about this.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:25:52 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: And I agree with you.
Message:
The worst one can do is leading someone to a dead end.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:57:29 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Delhi? Hmmm...
Message:
Yeah, maybe he'll get to see Jagdeo. Wouldn't that be grace?????

Pardon me while I retch.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:26:47 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is it fair to call Brian Gaudet a bonehead?
Message:
I'd totally forgotten how oppressive it was to never be able to talk about anything. We were only allowed to give satsang, otherwise it was chit-chat. God, what a nightmare that was.

I think it was so awful I blocked it out. That's a bad memory for sure.

And we couldn't see movies or read newspapers. Jesus, what a total cult.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:50:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Is it fair to call Brian Gaudet a bonehead?
Message:
Yeah, Rick, that's no nightmare you're having. That was your life. Absolute self-loathing in favour of some unattainable 'jewel of the lotus' or some such shit.

But as for chit chat itself, wasn't it just too fucking weird how Maharaji would slam us for talking just like regular people -- AS IF we'd be so arrogant as to live as if these were OUR bodies, not his! -- yet all the while he'd give these long, meandering 'satsangs' that were nothing but his own personality just basking in itself.

We were drones, he was the queen bee. It was devo. It was sick.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:13:30 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Are we not men?
Message:
Yes, I remember DEVO...

doop, doop, doop, doop, doo dah dah
doop, doop, doop, doop, doo dah dah
doop, doop, doop, doop, doo dah dah
doop, doop, doop, doop, doo
bom, bang boing (dah dah dah dah)
bom, bang boing (dah dah dah dah)...

They tell us that
we lost our tails...'

(DE-EVOlution = DEVOtion?)

Perfect premie anthem. (And if the reference is lost, then this post probably looks like the ravings of a madman.)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:59:06 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Me too, Nigel!
Message:
I thought the same thing! I always was fond of Whip It, Whip It Good!

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:05:50 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ditto (nt)
Message:
what a waste
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:16:01 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: actually
Message:
I just recalled how desperately I wanted to talk like a regular person. I was dying for conversation. Anything but the calculated constipation of 'satsang'. Anything for a recounting of an ordinary experience. Anything for someone interested in me.

No matter how hard I tried, I always failed to not chit-chat. And I enjoyed it like hell, and then always felt guilty. Guilty for chit-chatting and guilty for being unable to control myself.

And I anticipated being a premie for the rest of my life. Meaning no talking, basically, for the rest of my life. It really was like a prison sentence. What a relief.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:39:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But it's a real confederacy of dunces, isn't it?
Message:
You know, it's so funny, isn't it, the way that ELK trumpets the fact that there are 'new Expressions' waiting to be read. The one new Expression was Brian's. Can you imagine how excited they must be getting these empty sugar pills? I can't.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:00:45 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey! -A confederacy of dunces- is a terrific book!
Message:
sfgmhgd
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:07:05 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Ah, but they FORGET, Jim...
Message:
They forget that life is beautiful, that inside is better than outside, that heart is smarter than reason, stupid more glorious than smart, that arse-lick is cooler than dignity, that Guru is bigger and better and more fulsome and wholesome and cuddly and twinkly than a zillion constellations or pretty-well anything you can imagine and then some...

Funny you could forget about anything that good, I always think - and such Grace the likes of BG can stay focused and keep posting the reminders.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:46:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: That's why they call it the razor's edge, I guess
Message:
Amazing that we could find any self-confidence at all after that tour. The path of self-hatred. Lovely.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:09:17 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: That's why they call it the vomit inducer, I guess
Message:
I went to the video event to see my friends coming out. Some of them seemed happy, others not.

I heard a few seconds of the talk. He said 'knowledge is easy to get, hard to keep'.

As the high priest of the religion, Jim, can you explain to me what that means? The standard 'premie' explanation would be 'it's not the words, it's the feeling'.

My feeling was nausea.

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 03:20:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: That's why they call it the vomit inducer, I guess
Message:
Steve,

It means nothing. Nothing at all, I'm afraid. We've been sitting at the feet of a parrot.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 19:28:35 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@hotmail.com
To: gerry
Subject: Hey Gerry!!! (OT)
Message:
¡Hola, Gerry!
Please e-mail me at mgdbach@hotmail.com. I have the information I promised you, but I don't have your new e-mail address.
Gracias,
Padre Mickey
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 17:23:24 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The Future Is Not Far Away
Message:
I haven't read all the responses below under 'Cry For Help' yet, but I thank all those who've responded, especially, so far, William Shakespeare.

I've been thinking for a while that it would be nice if the participants of this bulletin board can meet in person some time in the next few months. Most of us have travelled around the world to see the weed, so maybe we can get it together for this noble purpose.

In the longer term, it would nice to have a commune.

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 13:28:17 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: The Future Is Not Far Away
Message:
Steve:

People have gotten together from time to time. There was that Latvian Society thing, and we visit one another sometimes. I've met Helen, G, JM, and a few others. Helps to put a face and personality with a name, and we end up having a great deal in common for some perverse reason. However, being against something is not quite as socially binding as being for something, unless you're a Republican that is.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 22:55:58 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: The Future Is Not Far Away
Message:
Steve,

Personally, I like the idea of this virtual community, and am content to leave it that way. I don't get out much as it is, just to see people in my own neighborhood, let alone travel around the country to meet folk.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:09:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Jim and I would kill each other
Message:
JUST KIDDING JIM.
But although I admire your sincereity Steve I think you may be disillusioned if you think of this forum as being entirely supportive or all aligned enough to actually visit and enjoy each other's company, much less live together!
I know some people have found friends here with others. I have made 2 friends that I really care about. But that is after being here over 2 years.

Sorry if this sounds cynical I am really only giving you another perspective.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:07:00 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: all communes end in a squabbling mess!-nt
Message:
sdfgh
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:13:53 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: can you imagine?
Message:
Good material for a short story over on AG though. hmmmm...
BTW sorry we missed each other but it was a pretty heavy time for me so it's just as well.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:21:10 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: can you imagine?ot
Message:
Hi Selene, I understand, I dread going through that myself.
Has time helped?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:27:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: time heals (ot) and thank you for asking
Message:
But this one is hard. I was so estranged from my mother, from most of my family, that I keep getting caught up in the 'what should have been' thoughts. That is one of the hardest things.

It's off topic and yet not really. Abandonment and estrangement seem to go hand in hand with caring only about a guru and one's own personal spiritual evolvement, (especially since it's fake!)

That and discovering my sister is going through it much harder than I and actually needs me And I am still angry at her for abandoning me (and some heavy money issues) so it's all weird. I'm being really supportive to her and yet feeling as though I may be compromising myself.

I'm basically numb right now.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:55:38 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: time heals
Message:
Your right about the -what should have beens.

To avoid that seems to be my lifes work at this point.

I try to live in such a way that if the worst happened, (dont want to mention what that is), that what should have beens have been minimized.

Seems impossible really, to successfully live in a loving complete relationship with those around you.

At least I know that no one can do that. Not that anyone tells you that! Everyone wants to say that if I do or think or act this or that way that I WILL attain some perfect life according to whatever definition they are thinking.
Cant be done!
Actually that is a relief, but that doesnt release me from the drive to live beautifully.

The fact that no one can live completely successfully is one of those proofs that there is a god.

(bastard)

Wouldnt jeusu qualify as a bastard? No mom or pop?
Thats what I call the god when I am pissed about the religious stuff that plagues us.

Otherwise, it is 'I love you I love life, I love this whole living experience and this person and that person,
but, even saying that stuff doesnt do the trick! You can only try to be constant, you cant actually do it.
Not meant to be done I guess.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:42:48 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: last night
Message:
I put my grandson to sleep. He played with my hand touched all the fingers and went on and on in a language I didn't understand but did sort of because it was so cute and real. I answered him and I think he got it.
Those are the type of moments I live for. He has cute big round brown eyes.
It's the little things that add up. Someome asked me at the funeral 'what will be your last thoughts when you die?'
Last night would help.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index