Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 21:23:03 (GMT)
From: Oct 31, 2000 To: Nov 09, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


Sir Dave -:- A premie's startling realisation -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 13:07:33 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Interesting parallels -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 22:27:16 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- A premie's startling realisation -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 12:13:39 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- 'Prettier? - empty. NT -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 03:19:53 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- your sites look better -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 18:58:44 (GMT)
__ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- A premie's startling realisation, M is a big fake -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:53:17 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- everyone is a sucker for something. we are normal -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 17:49:43 (GMT)
__ __ adolf hitlere -:- achtung..right on the money..d'program'd boy -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 08:18:43 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Right on the money, DPGAJ (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 20:36:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Blue Max -:- Right on the money, DPGAJ (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 04:35:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Right on the money, DPGAJ (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 20:08:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Right on the money, DPGAJ (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:11:32 (GMT)

Forum Administrator -:- Djuro: you're cluttering the forum... -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:49:52 (GMT)
__ A.L.P. -:- Anything and Everything About Maharaji -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:34:47 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- And who the fuck are YOU, to complain? -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 20:41:28 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- What is your problem with one liners.... -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:16:14 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Anything and Everything About Maharaji -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 03:21:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- thanks Jerry -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 04:48:33 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Djuro reveals more than just wibble -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 23:50:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ A.L.P. -:- Effort -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:08:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Then why won't he talk WITH us? -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 19:32:52 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Administrator -:- American Dream? - Good grief! -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 22:29:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ A.L.P. -:- Service -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:35:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks for the advice, I'm sure -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 19:43:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Erica -:- Wow, this guy is persistent! -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:06:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Like hell you did, Fluffy -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:16:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Erica -:- Yes I do mind. -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:23:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh really, Erica? -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:34:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Erica -:- Yes, really, Jim. -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 09:34:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You should be ashamed of yourself -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 22:45:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Yes, really, Jim. -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 16:03:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- You the man Rick/Thanks 4 another good post - NT - -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 17:32:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Excuses, excuses -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:18:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- So when he says exactly the same stuff recently? -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 10:18:56 (GMT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Anything and Everything About Maharaji -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 19:25:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ A.L.P. -:- Good Question -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 19:34:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You've got to be kidding! -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 19:53:04 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- And what about the Jesus freak? -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 03:37:10 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- thanks, FA... -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 03:17:59 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- He's like CD, only he gets to the 'point' faster -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 03:12:04 (GMT)
__ Forum Administrator -:- BTW: starting Friday (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:34:10 (GMT)
__ __ Cumitee for free Djuro -:- BTW: starting Friday (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:44:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Forum Adminstrator -:- Choose your words wisely -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:48:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, that was me! -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:56:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Forum Administator -:- Duh! -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 03:11:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cumite for free Djuro -:- Duh! -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 03:15:19 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- oh my -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:13:34 (GMT)
__ Frind of Djuro -:- Djuro: you're cluttering the forum... -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:13:18 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Thanks chief. -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:12:34 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Weekend in Reigate... -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:13:25 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Raja Ji -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 04:06:27 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- That must have been very special for you -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:42:54 (GMT)
__ Coach -:- Worth the wait -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:39:55 (GMT)
__ Gail -:- Weekend in Reigate--You're priceless, Nigel! -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:30:07 (GMT)
__ __ PAM -:- Practicing Knowledge makes you feel superior -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:02:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ PAM -:- Just Like in India -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:06:48 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- You're right, there IS a film script in all this.. -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 03:16:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- You're right, there IS a film script in all this.. -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 05:44:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Reigate is just south of London -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 21:44:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Reigate is just south of London -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 23:06:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Are you kidding? -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 23:25:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- What a bummer? -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 23:35:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ An Occassional Observer -:- I am pretty sure -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 16:41:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Senhor Occ Obs -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 17:50:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Senhor Occ Obs -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 10:45:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I am pretty sure -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 09:48:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ An Occassional Observer -:- I am pretty sure -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 10:41:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I am pretty sure -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:50:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- I am pretty sure -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:00:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Jethro man of many faces! -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:14:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- 'Then we dragged tree branches....... -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 15:53:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PAM -:- 'Then we dragged tree branches....... -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:09:36 (GMT)

cq -:- Michael Dettmers - a question about funding -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 21:30:58 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Walking The Walk -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 15:59:45 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Walking The Walk -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 17:54:04 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- 'Our holocaust', Steve? -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 16:18:00 (GMT)
__ __ Steven Quint -:- 'Our holocaust', Steve? -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 21:46:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- I did. Here's what it says (good link, btw) -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 22:36:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- I did. Here's what it says (good link, btw) -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 12:20:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- I did. Here's what it says (good link, btw) -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 20:09:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Here's What's Up -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 00:07:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The problem with hyperbole -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 16:37:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- The problem with hyperbole -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 19:06:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The problem with hyperbole -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 19:44:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- The problem with hyperbole - Let's Plan -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 00:15:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well, that's GOOD hyperbole -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 01:38:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Well, that's GOOD hyperbole - are you sure? -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 03:05:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- The problem with hyperbole - Let's Plan -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 01:04:14 (GMT)

Rick -:- Question for Michael Dettmers -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 15:57:22 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- You one shiny mofo Rick :) -nt- -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 21:24:00 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Hear! Hear! Pure Genius -nt- -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 08:01:23 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Great question, Rick -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 16:25:16 (GMT)
__ __ Gail -:- Great question, Rick -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:18:27 (GMT)
__ __ John K -:- Hey y'all, I was important too !! -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 20:50:33 (GMT)
__ __ Rick -:- pretty impressive, Jim (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 17:37:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 19:42:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, fucked that up -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 19:49:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Sorry, fucked that up -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 20:10:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Oh P-man! -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 01:14:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ P-man -:- Oh P-man! -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 16:17:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Oh P-man! -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:54:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- my real name -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:44:02 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Huh! Big Deal, Jim... -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 17:16:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Oh yeah? -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 22:45:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PAM -:- Well i thought it was fantastic! -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:21:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- BTW Jim, speaking of Kelowna .... -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:10:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- BTW Jim, speaking of Kelowna .... -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:34:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- BTW Jim, speaking of Kelowna .... -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 00:05:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- BTW Jim, speaking of Kelowna .... -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 05:12:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Maybe, but here's what I ALSO did... -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 23:04:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ oh yeah -:- I drove a golfcart at millinium(nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 23:43:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- And not forgetting that weekend in Reigate... -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 00:56:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- great post! -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 18:28:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Ruth is stranger than Richard... -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 22:45:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Richard just stuffs his emotions better -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 01:08:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Richard just stuffs his emotions better -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 21:46:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ selene -:- ok here is mine -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 22:46:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ someone -:- FA/BRIAN!!! EMPTY POST!!!! -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:08:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Coach -:- MISSING REIGATE POST!!! -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:04:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- MISSING REIGATE POST!!! -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:06:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Ah - found it again... Weekend in Reigate -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:08:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- FA?BRIAN!!!! EMPTY POST AGAIN!!!! -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:12:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- FA?BRIAN!!!! EMPTY POST AGAIN!!!! -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:19:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes, Nigel... -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:24:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Yes, Nigel... -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:03:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- eeiiww the golf cart guys -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 00:03:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Golf Cart Guy -:- eeiiww the golf cart guys -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:23:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ I didn't really... -:- funny thing is I was joking -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 18:55:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Coach -:- How bloody naive!!(nt) -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 00:14:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Who is naive!! -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:03:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Huh! Big Deal, Jim... -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 17:40:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Are you psychic, Rick? -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 18:11:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- You two had some carrer paths -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 17:38:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- What am I? Good question... -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 20:15:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Christ died for our sins / lets not disappoint him -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 21:53:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Jim, a 'criminal layer'? -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 17:54:26 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Question for Michael Dettmers -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 16:04:12 (GMT)

gErRy -:- Some tips -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 05:42:35 (GMT)
__ Charlie -:- To clear any confusion -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 11:27:05 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- To clear any confusion and spread some more. -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 21:02:10 (GMT)

Disculta -:- Brain rape: please respond -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 04:53:56 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Abuse masquerading as blessings -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 05:07:30 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Abuse masquerading as blessings -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 06:43:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lurking Poster -:- Poisonwood Bible revisited -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 10:26:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Abuse masquerading as blessings -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 10:26:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Abuse masquerading as blessings -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 16:34:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Abuse masquerading as blessings -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 17:52:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonora -:- 'why bother doing anything' -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 01:57:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- 'why bother doing anything' -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 08:25:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Dear John T. -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 16:35:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- C'est pourquoi! Thank you. :)) -nt- -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 21:50:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- 'why bother doing anything' -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 11:17:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Remember this -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 17:17:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Remember this.... -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 15:23:35 (GMT)

la-ex -:- a few questions for Michael Dettmers.... -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 04:26:26 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Was he drunk or stoned on stage? !!!! nt -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 12:06:32 (GMT)
__ __ Tim Matheson -:- Does HE still beat HIS wife!!! (NT) -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 06:22:19 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- a few questions for Michael Dettmers.... -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 05:11:50 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- **BEST OF** above -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 20:01:32 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- a few questions for Michael Dettmers.... -:- Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 13:20:13 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 13:07:33 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A premie's startling realisation
Message:
Gary Thomson, who is a premie, writes:

'When I first saw Maharaji I was surprised that something went from me to him, I guess I had been expecting it to be the other way around.'

There's a lot more startling revelations on Gary Thomson's website.

For instance, after having knowledge for a mere twenty years, he is 'learning that we can know a perfect love.'

Is this the new propogation faze three?

It's a nice looking web page and prettier than anything I've ever made.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 22:27:16 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Interesting parallels
Message:
Gary is exactly my age and was an aspirant at the same time as me. (Some other parallels too). Can't help wondering if we were ever selected/rejected for K at the same aspirant weekends.

This also means he, like me, must have been clobbered by the full force of the super-devotional era from 1978 - 1981.

Reading this anodyne, revisionist crap you'd imagine he must have had his ears and eyes closed for the whole of the duration.

And he still has his head shoved firmly up the Lord's arse - poor fool.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 12:13:39 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: A premie's startling realisation
Message:
Hi Sir Dave,

I doubt that the cult will be sanctioning premies to create their own Maharji websites. It would be a disaster for them. having worked on many premie publications over the years, most of the stuff written by premies is obvious, inane, superlative ridden crap- even to a humble devotee. If these stagnant, mouldy, decaying secrets were ever revealed to the public- we could close down the forum and all the ex- sites and write poetry.

Speaking of which- check out my poem of the month at:
http://website.lineone.net/~anthginn/

(I still can't do those fancy links Sir Dave)

All the best

Anth the html illiterate (I did the site with FrontPage)

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 03:19:53 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: 'Prettier? - empty. NT
Message:
prtemty
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 18:58:44 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: your sites look better
Message:
They have humour - uh I *did* spell it correctly this time?
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:53:17 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: everyone
Subject: A premie's startling realisation, M is a big fake
Message:
28 years after receiving Knowledge I realized that the reason none of us saw through Maharaj Ji sooner was that we really, really did not want to. We were all hell bent for leather that we were going establish a utopia on this earth where everyone could live an ideal life. DLM was founded on this concept, it was Woodstock run riot, and we were not about to let anyone tell us this utopia could not be established. It was our generations impossible dream, our generations fantasy. We were a generation that truly believed that anything was possible. Maharaj Ji provided a milieu that appeared to be conducive to that fantasy of establishing World Peace. He fed that fantasy and exploited our desire to work hard to make that dreams come true. Maharaj Ji had his own dream however which included becoming very weathly and powerful and having people worship and adore him. His dream was in conflict with our dream because he insisted that all of DLMs resources be used to indulge his insatiable material desires. World Peace and the welfare of his devotees took a back seat to his intrest in expensive cars, clothes, mansions and airplanes. If we had not been so attached to the idea that Maharaj Ji was going to show us how establish the Kingdom Of Heavan On Earth we would have sensed the incongruencies between what he said and what he did much earlier. The bottom line is that no one wanted to acknowledge to themselves that they had been decieved because that would mean the death of all their cherished hopes and dreams and that death would be painful. Inevitably we had to awaken to the truth about M and the dream world that we built around him. We saw how we had mistaken substance for shadow. We saw that it was all smoke and mirrorsand that the 'Great and Powerful Oz' was just a timid little man pulling the levers behind a curtain. Finally we realilized that we relied on M to bring peace when we would have been much better off to rely upon each other and our oun instincts. Who knows how much we might have accomplished as a generation if had it not been for M the spirtual vampire.
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 17:49:43 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: everyone is a sucker for something. we are normal
Message:
fttjjs
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 08:18:43 (GMT)
From: adolf hitlere
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: achtung..right on the money..d'program'd boy
Message:
nk
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 20:36:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: Right on the money, DPGAJ (nt)
Message:
ddddddddd
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 04:35:53 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Right on the money, DPGAJ (nt)
Message:
Jim,

Back from the big blue sky...How are you doing, kemo sabe?

Blue Max

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 20:08:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: Right on the money, DPGAJ (nt)
Message:
Fine, thanks.

Where were we?

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:11:32 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Right on the money, DPGAJ (nt)
Message:
You gave him a NT Jimmie, he may have missed your message.
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:49:52 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Djuro: you're cluttering the forum...
Message:
The problem is NOT that you're a premie, though that may be your problem - only you can decide.

(Other premies - Mel Bourne, for example, show a measure of respect for where they are and acknowledge they are visiting a website that was not set up for them and restrict their posts to specific topics and make some effort to interact meaningfully with the ex-premies here, who in many cases have some serious post-cult issues to deal with.)

The problem is this: you are punctuating every thread with cryptic one-line posts that make little sense to anybody reading them.

When asked to clarify or explain you're busy starting new threads of interest to nobody (apparently) but yourself. This is not your forum - and, it seemms - you have not won many friends here, even among premies, as far as I can see.

Regulars are asking for you to be blocked. I won't apply special rule 17a just yet, but your excessive contributions are becoming disruptive.

So from now it's the 'choke collar'. By this I mean:

You may type up to 1000 words per day, 7000 words per week, provided you don't post more than three times per day. (Extra posts will be deleted).

You may start one new thread every second day. Extra threads will be deleted.

If you DO have anything to contribute here, I think this arrangement still gives you a pretty big playground for you to do your special stuff.

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:34:47 (GMT)
From: A.L.P.
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Anything and Everything About Maharaji
Message:
Actually I find Djuro refreshing. At least you can go somewhere with his one-liners.

Most of the one-liners I've seen come from the regular posters consist of swearing, obscenities and basically telling everyone who doesn't think like you guys to fuck off!

Remember this is ... Anything and Everything about Maharaji. Surely you're not in to distorting what can be said so it fits your somewhat tainted vision of what is going on. Sounds abit propaganderish and fascist if you ask me.

What happened to the good ol' American dream ... freedom of speech ... democracy!!!!

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 20:41:28 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: A.L.P.
Subject: And who the fuck are YOU, to complain?
Message:
The FA imposes a reasonable (in my view) daily posting limit on Djuro, then you parachute in from the planet Zog to complain about fascism.

What's it to you, anyway? Who are you? Why should we care what you think? It's not as if you're a regular here. I'd say it was none of your business how the exes choose to run their site.

Anyway, by your warped definition every newspaper or magazine in the free world which imposes editorial restrictions (as in not publishing every letter it receives) must be guilty of fascism.

Get real, for goodness sake.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:16:14 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: What is your problem with one liners....
Message:
Freedom of speech includes one liners...

DJuro SUCKS!!

Hi ALP. ENJOYING PREMIELAND?

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 03:21:22 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: Anything and Everything About Maharaji
Message:
Fuck you, asshole. (How's that for a one liner?)

The truth is that Djuro engages in non-conversation. He poses questions; then when you answer honestly and expect a like reply, he hits you with his evasive one-liners that go nowhere, so much for your contention that at least you can go somewhere with them. The only place you can go with Djuro is on his own cloud. No thanks.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 04:48:33 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: thanks Jerry
Message:
I had that experience last night. Djuro doesn't want to talk.
Or, he may want to talk and can't quite cough it up. After all, the LOTU site doesn't offer much chance for it.
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 23:50:15 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: Djuro reveals more than just wibble
Message:
I find Djuro's beliefs to be positively alarming. I joked that I had waited for more than two weeks for knowledge since I waited all of my last lifetime to receive knowledge and that was added to my two week's wait.

Yet Djuro took this seriously and wrote that one lifetime and two weeks was still not enough for the likes of me.

I didn't realise that premies still actually think like that. Whose fault is it? It's Maharaji's fault because he's made no attempt to undo all the heavy satsang he gave back in the seventies.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:08:37 (GMT)
From: A.L.P.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Effort
Message:
Actually M has gone to a supreme amount of effort to undo all the heaviness, concepts and ideas thrown around in the '70's. If you guys would keep in touch and listen to him instead of each other you might actually witness some of the effort he has made.

Interestingly enough, I was watching a satellite broadcast last week of exceprts from training sessions he had done recently in the States. I thought of all you people here on this website as he addressed so many of the issues that you all seem to have. He talked about the history and the misconceptions of the past, and how dangerous they can be.

And when I thought of you all I realised actually he is addressing you. He might not actually come and post on this web site as you would like, but if you keep in touch and keep current with him. He does address the problems of the past. He talks about the mistakes made. He talks about the discrepancies between what he says and does and what other people say and do in their attempts to represent him.

And as far as I can see, he has always come in at some point when things get too off the point in DLM/EV/Ashram conciousness and changes things. And yes I am sure he does yell at people, I yell at people (premies) too, because I cannot believe how fucking stoopid people can be sometimes.

Does it shock you??? What does it shock??? Your middle class, all-white, Christian backgrounds??? It is a very ancient tradition in the East that masters quite often yell at the students, chuck things at them .... because we are slow off the mark and incredibly THICK sometimes. Japanese and Chinese Zen and Bhuddists masters have a history of yelling and shouting and drinking bottle and bottles of sake and rice wine.

I think you all have a very deep tradition of Christian ethics and morality ingrained from your middle American backgrounds. Remember this world is a BIG place and America is not the center of the universe. And not all societies function in an American way. Values are different and moral concepts are different.

In China Dog is a delicacy here it is considered inhuman and outrageous to eat a dog. In France horse is eaten but in U.K. the animal pollice would hanng you for eating a horse.

Everything is relative.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 19:32:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: Then why won't he talk WITH us?
Message:
I'ts pretty funny hearing about all these efforts Maharaji's supposedly made to 'address' the past. What he really needs to do is have a simple dialogue with us. You know, where we actually can discuss some of these issues. That would be the very minimum one would expect if he had even the slightest sincerity. A little conversation.

But that will never happen, will it?

Now why do you think that is? Come on, honestly. Why?

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 22:29:58 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: American Dream? - Good grief!
Message:
This is an international forum, ALP. Fascistic? YOu have to be kidding. If he can't say it in 1000 words per day, well, Jeez...

He normally manages 100 words per day, but spreads them over 25 posts, and it is clearly pissing people off - and this is a people's forum. If it 'belongs' to anyone it belongs to those who post here.

And Djuro is still free to post here. It is the ONLY place on the web where he can talk openly about Maharaji. We're doing the premies a service not granted by their own cult. How fascistic is that?

Have you read 'Baring their standards' - on the main EPO website? - Now there's an object lesson on the way censorship is carried out by the cult.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:35:07 (GMT)
From: A.L.P.
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Service
Message:
I think you are doing a service. I haven't actually been to any of the EV sites as I am not a 'cult' member but someone who really enjoys K and M, in my life. I don't go a long with alot of what the organization gets up to. I make my own choices.

I think you are doing a service that anyone can come on here and talk openly about M, so don't start making the same mistakes EV have made by being exclusive, elitist and narrow minded about what you will or will not allow to be expressed.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 19:43:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: Thanks for the advice, I'm sure
Message:
Just because we're not in a cult doesn't mean we can't have any discrimination or standards about this forum. We don't have to prove anything. This isn't some symbolic demonstration of 'free speech'.

But if you think that the shop's too closed over in premie land why not email M and complain?

You wouldn't think of doing that, though, would you?

Now why's that you figure?

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:06:23 (GMT)
From: Erica
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wow, this guy is persistent!
Message:
I think I pretty much answered that one above.
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:16:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: Like hell you did, Fluffy
Message:
You don't mind if I call you Fluffy, do you? It seems just right for some reason.

Anyway, Fluffy, you hardly answered my question above or anywhere. I'd asked you why you don't complain to Maharaji if you think EV's not doing things properly. Your 'answer' was more about what you do when you have questions about things. But this isn't about a question of yours, it's about a criticism. Why don't you voice it? Tell him who you are and tell him how bad his organization is?

Well?

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:23:10 (GMT)
From: Erica
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes I do mind.
Message:
I do voice criticism when I see it. To him, to EV and to individuals.
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:34:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: Oh really, Erica?
Message:
Well I'll tell you right now that EV is lying on it's FAQ about Maharaji's history. To the question:

'Did Maharaji ever say he was God?'

their entry begins:

No, Maharaji never at any time claimed to be God.

But look, please, at just one of the quotes you'll find elsewhere on this site (under the 'DLM/EV Papers') where he claims just that:

Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world.

EV is clearly lying and if you didn't see it before you do now. So what are you going to do about it? Don't forget, you just finished saying that when you 'see criticism you voice it.'


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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 09:34:18 (GMT)
From: Erica
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, really, Jim.
Message:
O.K. I will answer that one, as you are hounding me. But remember it is only in my own understanding I say this.

I believe those words were spoken in 1970/71, something like that. So M would have been about 12 or 13 at the time, coming straight from India, from a deeply entrenched Hindi, devotional background. In that culture the title of Maharaji can and does also represent the power of God, and can be spoken about in the third person and as an individual at the same time. It is a matter of translated semantics.

I have even referred to the grace of god, or the creator, or of life itself as the grace of Maharaji, in the past.

However, as I have gone on my understanding has deepend and I have become less of a parrot. There is a differentiation between M, himself, and that all-mighty power. That power is as within him as it is within each one of us. And as he as grown, experienced more of life, travelled the world, so too has his understanding and expression deepend and become more universal.
But one has to apply oneself to the practice of Knowledge and keep in touch with him, in order to understand that.

I think, if we could be rational about this, you might agree with me, when I say one can hardly be held entirely responsible to humanity for what one says at the ages of 9 through to early teens.

M has made great effort and to take out the cultural, mystical, spiritual, religious connotations that have been laid on to Knowledge. He is not static.

We will never agree, Jim, on this point. You want to hold him responsible for all the words and your own misunderstandings and grievances. While I am only extremely glad that I met him, received K and had the wisdom to realise it only worked if I practiced it and stayed to true to my ownself.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 22:45:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: You should be ashamed of yourself
Message:
How did it feel writing that disgusting lie of a psot, Erica? I can't imagine it feeling good, no siree.

Listen, I'll talk with you but I expect a little honesty, huh? That's not too much to ask, is it?

In your vain attempt to somehow deal with this, you wrote:

I think, if we could be rational about this, you might agree with me, when I say one can hardly be held entirely responsible to humanity for what one says at the ages of 9 through to early teens.

Very funny. Listen, if we could be rational about this you can simply admit that EV's lying when they claim that he never said he was God. Or are we going to get into this stupidest-of-all-exercises where I'm going to have to chase you through the dictionary, starting with the word 'never'?

You're not being honest with me or yourself, Erica. You know that you're just playing liar's poker here. That's why you say:

We will never agree, Jim, on this point.

You know we'll never agree because you've already agreed with me silently but are too dishonest to admit it out loud. Maharaji claimed to be God. Yiou know it but you just can't bear to speak the truth. Seeker of truth? Look what's become of you!

You want to hold him responsible for all the words and your own misunderstandings and grievances.

And fuck you too! I want to hold him responsible for HIS words that had an impact on MY life and which his cult is now LYING about on their website. Any decent human would understand that. What does that say of you?

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 16:03:46 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: Yes, really, Jim.
Message:
First of all, Erica, no one is hounding you. This is a discussion forum and any of your posts are up for response. So don't try to paint yourself as a victim because your ideas are being confronted.

Maharaji referred to himself, in the West, as the Lord, right through the end of the 70's. He was over 30 years of age at that time. He knew how his cult members were interpreting what he was saying and he continued to say it. It means that it is what he meant... as an adult he was saying he was the Lord. Pretty simple.

Now he says he never said that. Also pretty simple. We call that a liar.

You're spinning a web of bullshit, Erica. There's no other way to say it. Most of us, here, practiced knowledge and 'stayed in touch' for a long period. After recognizing it wasn't true and that we were fooling ourselves, we left.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 17:32:38 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: You the man Rick/Thanks 4 another good post - NT -
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:18:16 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: Excuses, excuses
Message:
You're full of baloney, Erica. Get real. You've attached yourself to a cult leader because living life without him is just too scary a prospect. So, you make excuse after excuse, trying in vain to justify things said and done by M, when there's no justifying any of it. The only honest thing that can be said about Maharaji is that he's a rich cat who got that way through the free labor of his cult devotees, and that he speaks out of both sides of his mouth. There's nothing clear in what M says. That's why premies like you are always reaching for ways to clarify it. C'mon, admit it. Maharaji is just one confusing bastard. Free your mind. Give that shit up.
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 10:18:56 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: So when he says exactly the same stuff recently?
Message:
Over the last ten years he still says EXACTLY the same shit in India, oh right that doesn't mean anything huh because they're all hindus so we're talking cultural relativity eh, give us a break, either he speaks the truth or he doesn't.

And darshan, that's still happening, if not as regularly, and not just in India, what's that about?

Why does he also deny he ever said that stuff, and why does he say only the mahatmas said it?

Give us a break, like all premies you give the guy so much slack it's frightening, slack you would never give anyone else.

So you have an experience, so do lots of followers of other gurus. Knowledge is bog standard bhakti yoga practice, have you read ANY of the historical stuff on this site, or are you another one who's so threatened by this place & the fear of losing your experience, you'll block off anything that threatens it?

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 19:25:52 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: Anything and Everything About Maharaji
Message:
Freedom of speech and democarcy are practiced to its fullest at EV with the exception of fully edited posts and a self designated leader - when will E/V have elections for a new teacher? Can we vote? Can we post our complaints at enjoing life? will they stay up? Is that fair? is it Democratic.
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 19:34:17 (GMT)
From: A.L.P.
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Good Question
Message:
Do they have a Forum type setup on the EV site? Can you just go in there and have a chat about things?
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 19:53:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: You've got to be kidding!
Message:
Why even EV's new newsletter does the same old thing. They KNOW that they're supposed to look a little open, somehow, sin some way, a little like people in the real world, so they post a sample of the fawning congratulatory bullshit they get like this:

And finally…

Many of you have sent warm messages of thanks and goodwill for Elan. Here’s a typical one:

'I just need to let you know how good it feels to read the e-mails in the morning. Thank you. Whoever thought of sending messages via e-mail is brilliant and extra thanks to them. Have a great day.'

We chose this one because it gives us a chance to tell you who that brilliant person is who first suggested the possibility of bringing daily inspiration via an e-mail newsletter – soon to include sound-bites.

Well, on second thoughts, we’ll let you guess!

But the answer's 'no', EV does not countenance, support or allow even the slightest free exchange or expression. Notice, as well, how they never put up any of the email addresses of any of their contributors. Why? Your guess is as good as mine. Mine is that they don't want to encourage a lot of 'cross talk'.

And as for Djuro, give me a fucking break! He contributed nothing, nothing at all. You must be a cult apologist. Am I wrong?

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 03:37:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: And what about the Jesus freak?
Message:
In a now inactive thread, '20 Years' replied to my no-text post, 'Shut the fuck up with that Jesus shit (nt)', by saying:

you got a Jesus problem, I got an M problem

Well, we've all got a problem with M but that's no excuse to allow this forum to be a nauseating platform for this Jesus shit.

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 03:17:59 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: thanks, FA...
Message:
This is a word-chunky environment, and I love words.

So when someone like Djuro posts from planet Ghzchibanistan in posts of twelve words or less...well, what the fuck? Especially when he doesn't respond to any requests for clarification.

Thanks for administrating the forum, FA.

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 03:12:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: He's like CD, only he gets to the 'point' faster
Message:
Remember CD?

God!

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:34:10 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: BTW: starting Friday (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:44:56 (GMT)
From: Cumitee for free Djuro
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: BTW: starting Friday (nt)
Message:
How many are you?

(...... JH:) )

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:48:34 (GMT)
From: Forum Adminstrator
Email: None
To: Cumitee for free Djuro
Subject: Choose your words wisely
Message:
You're wasting them, I fear. I've given you a thousand. Try assembling them into sentences and paragraphs, perhaps.

Two more posts today and that's it.

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:56:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Forum Adminstrator
Subject: Hey, that was me!
Message:
Sorry,

Didn't mean to confuse. (That's why i signed the stupid things.)

But, you know, it's kind of fun impersonating this idiot. Don't know why, but it is. Go ahead try it.

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 03:11:13 (GMT)
From: Forum Administator
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Duh!
Message:
Too good.

I thought it was our resident Groucho-without-a-punchline again, addressing Jim, imagining you were the FA.

Quite a hall of mirrors, eh?

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 03:15:19 (GMT)
From: cumite for free Djuro
Email: None
To: Forum Administator
Subject: Duh!
Message:
How do you know?


(...... sorry, I'll stop now. Or pretty soon. JH)

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:13:34 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: oh my
Message:
I just figured out who you are.
nice strategy.
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:13:18 (GMT)
From: Frind of Djuro
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Djuro: you're cluttering the forum...
Message:
How many are you?


(Just kidding ..... Jim)

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:12:34 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Thanks chief.
Message:
I like that. Resolution 17a.
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:13:25 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Weekend in Reigate...
Message:
(this twice failed to appear in thread lower down, so I'm trying it as a new thread)

.....helping prepare the grounds for Heil-Hamster's UK mansion.

Freezing weather. Standing atop a builder's skip shovelling hardcore either into or out of said receptacle (can't remember which). Remember also the besuited big-league-premie fascist looking out from an upstairs window of the res, beckoning me over for a talking-to because I'd broken ranks for a sly smoke. Not because I'd taken a break so much, as because I had forgotten where I was.... Never mind that we were out in the fresh air, if I wanted to indulge in that filthy consciousness-lowering habit I would have to walk half a mile up the drive and stand outside on the leafy lane.

Outside on the leafy lane, some upper-crust retired-colonel from the mansion next door, obviously peturbed by the rag-tag-and-bobtail hobbledehoys he'd observed through his spyglass came up and demanded to know who his new neighbour was going to be...?

(Ooh-er.. what the fuck do I say?)

'Guru Maharaji Ji' was the best I could manage.

The neighbour stalked off to pen an angry epistle to The Telegraph with what might be described as an apoplectic look.

Then we went in for lunch. Except we didn't have lunch. We had satsang for two hours before lunch, and I fell asleep from sheer bloody exhaustion. Awoke feeling very guilty, but I don't think I missed anything too important. (Or is that where I lost the plot?)

After lunch, the word went around that Raja ji was coming by to inspect progress. Sure enough, soon after a big shiny Merc screeched onto the drive. Talk about divided loyalties. Do I keep grinding away at the rubble, or jump down to snatch a hit of kinship-darshan?

Hardly mattered. Shiny-suited Indian guy jumped out of car and stepped briskly into residence-to-be. PAMs only. End of magical moment.

Then we dragged tree branches around the garden aimlessly for much of the afternoon. Later, after it was dark, we had a bonfire. (This might might, or might not, be the same conflagration reported by Sir 'Burning Bush' David where he accidentally torched some of the Hamster's best sycamores. But that's another story.)

And for five minutes standing around that fire I felt pretty happy for the first and only time that whole long weekend. Up until now nothing but this cold weather, hard grind and cold, inner-focused, grin-and-bear-it company. Bleak.

But now, suddenly, this unexpected moment of communal well-being as other service-weary sods gathered from all around the vast gardens and toasted their frozen, aching limbs before this glorious blaze, like troops home from the war.

Autumn evening, leaping-flamed Guy-Fawkes fire. What more could you wish for? (- apart from a foil-wrapped jacket spud with cheese inside and a large flagon of ale? Hmm, some music and dancing, perhaps...)

Then a premie-with-a-purpose turned up and gave us spontaneous satsang about what we were doing and not doing. 'Look you chaps, this is all very nice, but let's not forget why we are really here...'

So we surrendered (God, I so wish I'd rebelled and gone in search of roasties and cider) and trudged off back towards that very special house we were forbidden to enter and god-knows-what next.

Raja Ji gave satsang in a drab and dreary hall in central London that evening. We dutifully rushed off in hastily-assembled transport and attended, and God, was the Lord's brother total crap. (Couldn't talk, couldn't do anything. No amount of cult conditioning would persuade me otherwise.)

Hmm, what else did I do in the Lord's service? It's suddenly all flooding back..

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 04:06:27 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Raja Ji
Message:
Yeah, Nige, of all the satsang I've heard, I'd have to say that Raja Ji's was the most lame. I actually spoke to him on two occasions, once in the lobby of a hotel where we shared a smoke (not a doobie, cigarettes), and once in a question and answer session. On both ocassions I got the impression that he didn't know jack, and went on the defensive because of it.

In the hotel lobby, I confessed that I wasn't experiencing what I was looking for with Knowledge, hoping that this 'realized' soul might give me some pointers, but he had nothing to say, not in the lobby to me, the person who asked for his assistance. But when he got in front of a crowd, he had a lot to say. 'I was just in the lobby with this guy who must think this Knowledge is like a shot of whiskey or needle in the arm... blah, blah, blah...', which wasn't what I thought at all. I really was just looking for some guidance on this path, and thought that he could provide it. Har, har.

Another time I spoke to him was shortly after I got sober, at a question and answer session he was holding. Having recently kicked the booze, and being told that it wasn't me getting myself sober, but the grace of God doing it for me, I kind of transposed that into wondering if the experience of Knowledge was like that. 'Raja Ji, the experience of Knowledge, do you think it's by your own power or a power greater than yourself that provides it?'

The guy looked at me like I had 4 eyes. Really, he was almost horrified. I can't remember what his reply was, only that his mannerism was defensive. It struck me as odd that somebody enlightened would take a defensive attitude when somebody, me, who didn't know if he was coming or going was just looking for an answer about where the 'experience' comes from. I mean, okay, maybe it was a dumb question, but so what. I'm asking a question. Aren't the wise supposed to be kind and compassionate in dealing with those of us who are swimming in the maya? Isn't the divine love of the liberated supposed to pass through us and give us an inkling of where it is we're supposed to be headed on the spiritual path?

I sensed none of that in Raja Ji. He was just a guy on the spot, and he looked it.

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:42:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: That must have been very special for you
Message:
Sounds like a beautiful time in your life, Nige. Back before you became a looser. Mansions, big cars, getting to go in and out of buildings.

So now you've given it all up. And for what?

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:39:55 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Worth the wait
Message:
Nigel,

Glad you re-posted. Very nice post. Really well writtten. It reminded me what a load of nazis there were telling everybody else what to do. Talk about the thought police. Sort of a reverse of the biblical beatitudes.

'Blessed are the obnoxious for they shall get to be the honcho....'

What a circus. So bizarre.

Coach

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:30:07 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Weekend in Reigate--You're priceless, Nigel!
Message:
I think you should write a song about this. This is the stuff that movies are made from. Speaking of which, why don't we all whip a screenplay
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:02:25 (GMT)
From: PAM
Email: None
To: Nigel and all
Subject: Practicing Knowledge makes you feel superior
Message:
Isn't it lovely - with that experience of REAL LOVE we can get all superior and boss the low life's and scum around! that must have been what Jesus was talking about and I got it all wrong. I thought he was talking about everyone being equal.

Great post Nigel,

PAM

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:06:48 (GMT)
From: PAM
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Just Like in India
Message:
But there may be a video clip of you as humble peasant and all the PAMS will look at you and say how Soooooo beautiful, humble and devoted you are (with tears in their eyes.)

I admire and look down to you, try better next time,

PAM

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 03:16:26 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: You're right, there IS a film script in all this..
Message:
If everyone could pick out those more striking episodes of cult insanity and write them down - and we wove them all into a fast-changing collage, Spinal Tap style..

Could be a winner, I reckon.

(Except LOTU already exists, doesn't it?)

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 05:44:51 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: You're right, there IS a film script in all this..
Message:
Where is Reigate?

Is it in South of London, Close to sussex or something similar?

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 21:44:22 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Reigate is just south of London
Message:
Salam: Where is Reigate?

Is it in South of London, Close to sussex or something similar?

Yup, Reigate is just off the M25 motorway that circles London, more or less due south of the centre, in the county of Surrey (the poshest county in England, incidently).

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 23:06:07 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Reigate is just south of London
Message:
Is it still there? Tell me more.
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 23:25:10 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Are you kidding?
Message:
Tell you more about Reigate? Um, OK, here's a virtual tour, courtesy of the local soviet.

Enjoy!

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 23:35:13 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: What a bummer?
Message:
I meant his residance in Surry. Is it still there? What do you know? Some gossip.
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 16:41:27 (GMT)
From: An Occassional Observer
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I am pretty sure
Message:
his residence is still there.
The address is Stubbs Lane, Lower Kingswood, Reigate.

I can't remember the name of the house but I will drop by the next time I pass by.

Anyway I reckon he owes me a few thousand quid(pounds) for all the hours of security I did for him there.


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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 17:50:05 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: An Occassional Observer
Subject: Senhor Occ Obs
Message:
Hi,

Are you the guy who may come to Portugal at some time?

My name is Steve Mulley. I was aroung Reigate during the early days of it being set up and knew most of the security guys.

I may know you. My e mail is steve.mulley@clix.pt if you don't want to reveal your identity on the forum. I'd be glad to hear from you if you do know me. I was an intense and serious skinny little turkey a bit younger than most at that time.

Cheers Hal Steve.

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 10:45:07 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Senhor Occ Obs
Message:
Hi Steve,
Yes, it's me Jethro.

I sometimes use An Occassinal Observer when I just want to make a comment rather.

Were you there at the ersidence when I was there?

Can you help me recall the names of some of the securtity hinchos at that time?

Hope you and your are doing well.

Jethro

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 09:48:40 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: An Occassional Observer
Subject: I am pretty sure
Message:
There used to be an ashram close by, where m stored his cars in. It was more of a support house for m's residence, do you know if it still there or have the closed it?
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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 10:41:28 (GMT)
From: An Occassional Observer
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I am pretty sure
Message:
Salam,

When I was there (1979), the ashram/house we stayed in was near the bottom of stubbs lane(can't recall the name at the moment,,something ending in 'hurst').
His and Dharma Pal's(rajaji) holy cars were kept in a hired garage which was on a farm a few miles from Stubbs land.Again I can't recall the name, it may have begun with 'Broc...'.

We did 8-12 hour shifts at the farm. There were no toilets and had to go into the forest behind the garages for excereting.

The honchos told me that I was not to tell the farmer who I was working for and should say that I work for a security company.

Anyway the farmer used to come down and talk to me on quite afew occassions.
On one occassion he told me how the people who represented his organisation would come and see him and gossip about each. He also told me that the cars were owned by two Indian brothers according to his own investigation.He(the farmer) was clearly suspicious of the whole set up.
Anyway I reported back to the chief honcho the conversation I had, and advised to staighten out things with the farmer.

A couple days later I was told that 'my service had changed' and that I was being sent back to the ashram. It 'felt wrong' but of course I did not question it as it was made clear that any direction coming thru m or his organisation was agya.

I found out 2 YEARS LATER, that the farmer had take out some kind of writ against prem and dharma and that prempal had been told that the farmer got all his information from me.

Jethro (aka An Occassional Observer)

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:50:20 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: An Occassional Observer
Subject: I am pretty sure
Message:
The reason I asked is because in this place there was a large garage with at least 5 cars. One of them was a red sport car, maybe a ferarri or lumbergeni. There were guys working on them around the clock (why?). I spent two week in his residence at that time when someone by the name of Steve went to a festival. I was milking and looking after two cows(imagine that). Shitiest cows I've seen in my life. Fucking have to milk them at the right time or they go off the top of their head mooing until your ears drop off.
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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 17:00:06 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I am pretty sure
Message:
When I was there, I remember 2 vehicles. The red lambourgini, which I think was dharma pal's(that means guardian of 'TRUTH'{barf})and prem's motor home. People did sometimes come and work on them and I was also on one occassion brought a meal on my 12 hours shift.

To think I used to spend 12 hours a day, around this garage faithfully remembering holy name and seeing it as an opportunity.

It really does me in remembering this...wasting so many years.

Take care

Jethro

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 16:14:44 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: An Occassional Observer
Subject: Jethro man of many faces!
Message:
Hi Jethro,

well 2 forum faces anyway! Jethro I knew you vaguely in your former incarnation. I married Michael Green's wife Sue who is an old friend of David and Rochelle's.

I asked you to give satsang a few times when I was the aspirant co-ordinator at dartmouth park Rd because I felt you were very real when you spoke. You were by that time not considered quite kosher by the goody goodys as you hung around with a few guys who were judged to be bongos. I remember you as a good friend of Ron and Bob.

I didn't cross paths with you around the res though.

Anyway I hope you are well and contented,
Steve

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 15:53:41 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: 'Then we dragged tree branches.......
Message:
around the garden aimlessly for much of the aftenoon.'

That's a wonderful image, Nigel. Dragging branches aimlessly. I love it.

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:09:36 (GMT)
From: PAM
Email: Soooooo poetic!
To: Cynthia
Subject: 'Then we dragged tree branches.......
Message:
Nigel nigel Nigel......
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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 21:30:58 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Michael Dettmers - a question about funding
Message:

Michael,

To your knowledge, has Maharaji ever been the recipient of funds/donations that were procured by Elan Vital UK?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 15:59:45 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Walking The Walk
Message:
Things continue to get better in my life slowly but surely.

I'm wondering if anybody took up my suggestion to contact Clinton, Gore and other politicians about our holocaust.

It's easy to contact people using the internet and email. Somebody will probably read the mail. Somebody's consciousness will be raised by knowledge of our holocaust. That's a good thing.

Criminal charges, tax evasion charges, other actions may still be possible. Informing people in authority is a good thing. Informing the Malibu police may be a very good thing. Even if there's nothing they can do now, they may keep an eye out for the guy.

I have found police to be intelligent and sympathetic when talked to with respect.

There's one member of the Canadian parliament that I have phoned twice about different matters and he promptly returned my calls each time.

Don't underestimate your abilities and powers. Don't sell yourselves short. Reclaim your power. Yes, this sounds a bit 'new-age', but 'new-age' thinking is sometimes good.

If such actions are taken, I see no need to talk about it here. But you will have the satisfaction of having done something. All talk and no walk isn't good.

Thanks,

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 17:54:04 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Walking The Walk
Message:
Would you consider submitting a journey entry?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 16:18:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: 'Our holocaust', Steve?
Message:
Weren't you the one complaining about people misusing language the other day?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 21:46:58 (GMT)
From: Steven Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Jim
Subject: 'Our holocaust', Steve?
Message:
Look up the word 'holocaust' in bartleby.com American Heritage Dictionary.

Don't be so quick to criticize, Jim.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 22:36:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: I did. Here's what it says (good link, btw)
Message:
NOUN : 1. Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire. 2. a. Holocaust The genocide of European Jews and others by the Nazis during World War II: “Israel emerged from the Holocaust and is defined in relation to that catastrophe” (Emanuel Litvinoff) b. A massive slaughter: “an important document in the so-far sketchy annals of the Cambodian holocaust” (Rod Nordland) 3. A sacrificial offering that is consumed entirely by flames.

ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, burnt offering, from Old French holocauste, from Latin holocaustum, from Greek holokauston, from neuter of holokaustos, burnt whole, holo-, holo-, + kaustos, burnt, from kaiein, to burn.

OTHER FORMS: hol´´o·caus´tal or hol´´o·caus´tic — ADJECTIVE

USAGE NOTES: Holocaust has a secure place in the language when it refers to the massive destruction of humans by other humans. Ninety-nine percent of the Usage Panel accepts the use of holocaust in the phrase nuclear holocaust. Sixty percent of the Panel accepts the sentence “As many as two million people may have died in the holocaust that followed the Khmer Rouge takeover in Cambodia.” But because of its associations with genocide, people may object to extended applications of holocaust. When the word is used to refer to death brought about by natural causes, the percentage of the Panel accepting drops sharply. Only 31 percent of the Panel approves the sentence “In East Africa five years of drought have brought about a holocaust in which millions have died.” In a 1987 survey, just 11 percent approved the use of holocaust to summarize the effects of the AIDS epidemic. This suggests that other figurative usages such as “the huge losses in the Savings and Loan holocaust” may be viewed as overblown or in poor taste.·When capitalized Holocaust refers specifically to the destruction of Jews and other Europeans by the Nazis and may also encompass the Nazi persecution of Jews that preceded the outbreak of the war.

WORD HISTORY: Totality of destruction has been central to the meaning of holocaust since it first appeared in Middle English in the 14th century, used in reference to the biblical sacrifice in which a male animal was wholly burnt on the altar in worship of God. Holocaust comes from Greek holokauston (“that which is completely burnt”), which was a translation of Hebrew ‘lâ (literally “that which goes up,” that is, in smoke). In this sense of “burnt sacrifice,” holocaust is still used in some versions of the Bible. In the 17th century the meaning of holocaust broadened to “something totally consumed by fire,” and the word eventually was applied to fires of extreme destructiveness. In the 20th century holocaust has taken on a variety of figurative meanings, summarizing the effects of war, rioting, storms, epidemic diseases, and even economic failures. Most of these usages arose after World War II, but it is unclear whether they permitted or resulted from the use of holocaust in reference to the mass murder of European Jews and others by the Nazis. This application of the word occurred as early as 1942, but the phrase the Holocaust did not become established until the late 1950s. Here it parallels and may have been influenced by another Hebrew word, ô’â (“catastrophe,” in English, Shoah). In the Bible ô’â has a range of meanings including “personal ruin or devastation” and “a wasteland or desert.” ô’â was first used to refer to the Nazi slaughter of Jews in 1939, but the phrase ha-ô’â (“the catastrophe”) became established only after World War II. Holocaust has also been used to translate urbn (“destruction”), another Hebrew word used to summarize the genocide of Jews by the Nazis.

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 12:20:51 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Jim
Subject: I did. Here's what it says (good link, btw)
Message:
Thanks for posting the entry. I had limited time and read it quickly the first time.

I think that some poetic licence is appropriate with certain words if they are not firmly fixed in the language, as seems to be the case with the word 'holocaust'. Certainly, the entry is unusual, instructive and thought-provoking in the depth of its explanation. I don't think there's anything wrong with a bit of well-chosen hyperbole. From the same dictionary's definition of 'hyperbole':

NOUN : A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect, as in I could sleep for a year or This book weighs a ton.

Surely these sentences wouldn't be considered strange or out of place in certain contexts.

Here's the entry from m-w.com:

Main Entry: ho·lo·caust
Pronunciation: 'hO-l&-'kost, 'hä- also -'käst or 'ho-l&-kost
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French holocauste, from Late Latin holocaustum, from Greek holokauston, from neuter of holokaustos burnt whole, from hol- + kaustos burnt, from kaiein to burn -- more at CAUSTIC
Date: 13th century
1 : a sacrifice consumed by fire
2 : a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire
3 a often capitalized : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II -- usually used with the b : a mass slaughter of people; especially : GENOCIDE

Merriam-Webster usually lists words in chronological order of first appearance. You can see that the word has evolved and that the third definition can be seen as hyperbole compared to the second, because not every Jew was killed, and what does 'thorough' mean anyway?

Language is always changing right? There are so many speakers of English now that it would be harder than ever to institute a change that would be generally accepted. We're mostly stuck with what we have, but it is fun sometimes to play with a word that is still evolving.

I've looked at the original post again and it's hard to find a word that would adequately replace 'holocaust'. 'Nightmare' perharps. 'Situation'? I was obviously feeling angry at the time I wrote that, and I'm feeling even angrier now.

Anyway, thanks for now,

Steve

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 20:09:44 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I did. Here's what it says (good link, btw)
Message:
See this is what's [perhaps] driving Bill crazy. That was as nicely a worded post as I've ever seen online, anywhere, Steve.

It doesn't jibe with some of your altered states. What is up with that?

Just curious.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 00:07:48 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: a0aji
Subject: Here's What's Up
Message:
1. I'm evolving like I hope everyone else here is.

2. I received an indirect report from my psychiatrist yesterday afternoon stating that I was not mentally ill any more after 21 years of problems. I see the shrink on Monday and will receive elaboration and confirmation of this second-hand report.

3. Practice makes perfect. I'm getting a lot of practice here.

4. Sincere, intelligent, well-intended feedback is good.

5. I don't think I've been in too many altered states here, if you exclude anger. A few of my friends have lectured me that anger is bad, but it's part of me for now so I'm trying to make the best of it.

6. Most of the English around here, I'm sorry to say, is not that exciting, so there hasn't been a lot of exemplary prose to learn from.

Thanks,

Steve

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 16:37:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: The problem with hyperbole
Message:
I don't think there's anything wrong with a bit of well-chosen hyperbole.

Sure, but what's 'well-chosen'? In this case, calling our experiences in the cult a 'holocaust' is decidedly NOT well-chosen, in my opinion. It cheapens the word and exaggerates the harm so much that it only confuses and plays into the typical cult apologist's argument that we're blowing things way out of proportion. It's like saying Maharaji 'murdered' us. Frankly, it's ridiculous.

Yes, 'nightmare' would have been a far better word no matter how angry you are.

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 19:06:26 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: The problem with hyperbole
Message:
I think one could possibly argue that m murdered those 'premies' who committed suicide. They are obviously not around to speak for themselves, so one would have to interview friends, relatives, etc. to make a case.

What about the term 'getting away with murder'. I think it is appropriate in our situation.

Are you concerned because the word 'holocaust' is usually used these days to refer to what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jews and other in the mid-twentieth century. The word was appropriated for that use and the Jews don't have a monopoly on it. I am a Jew, by the way. A close friend of mine is a native Indian from Ontario and he said recently that the Jews and the North American Indians suffered the two greatest holocausts in history.

While I agree with that, I feel that what 'premies' have gone through in the west in the last 29 years should have a good label put on it which expresses the severity, uniqueness and enormity of the damage done. Can somebody come up with a good term?

Steve

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 19:44:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: The problem with hyperbole
Message:
I think one could possibly argue that m murdered those 'premies' who committed suicide. They are obviously not around to speak for themselves, so one would have to interview friends, relatives, etc. to make a case.
What about the term 'getting away with murder'. I think it is appropriate in our situation.

Sorry, but I disagree. One 'could possibly argue' almost anything but I don't think that one could ever justifiably argue that m murdered any premie suicides. Don't get me wrong, I hold m fully, entirely, one thousand percent responsible for at least some of those deaths. People like Dave Wener, who I knew long before the cult and who I tried to placate the day before he hung himself in '74, freaked out because they took Maharaji to heart. Maharaji intentionally frightened us as much as he possibly could about the prospect of succumbing to our 'evil mind'. He even went so far as to say -- without irony, without any intended hyperbole -- that we we'd be better off dead than leaving him. What would he expect would happen with a poisonous teaching like that? That, as far as I'm concerned, is criminal negligence.

But murder? Murder is an intentional killing. I don't think you can get that far with the premie suicides. Nor do you have to to adequately capture his blameworthiness.

As for 'getting away with murder', well here's the real problem with hyperbole or any figurative speech in these situations. You start off using the more sensational term for a little extra impact, poetically, if you will, but then the more serious ramifications of the heavier term start to seep into the description.

Murder is one of the worst acts people are capable of. As is rape, for that matter. So when words like these get used to describe acts that aren't properly murder or rape, one has to be concerned that some of the more serious connotations those words imply don't sneak in somehow. It is only appropriate to say that Maharaji 'got away with murder' in a clearly figurative sense. But there's also a great risk that once that word starts flying around some of its darker, literal connotations will fall into the mix. That's wrong. And unnecessary.

Are you concerned because the word 'holocaust' is usually used these days to refer to what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jews and other in the mid-twentieth century. The word was appropriated for that use and the Jews don't have a monopoly on it. I am a Jew, by the way. A close friend of mine is a native Indian from Ontario and he said recently that the Jews and the North American Indians suffered the two greatest holocausts in history.

I accept the etymology in the excerpt I posted above. The term with a capital 'H' should refer to the Nazi's mass destruction of jews but the word's also appropriate in any case of mass genocide.

While I agree with that, I feel that what 'premies' have gone through in the west in the last 29 years should have a good label put on it which expresses the severity, uniqueness and enormity of the damage done. Can somebody come up with a good term?

Yeah, you're right. There has to be a word for all that. Pesonally, I think the description of Maharaji as a cult leader is no small change. I also think that it's fair to say that he quite literally severely exploited us via a form of mind control. And that abuse word that people use so liberally here? I like to save it for really bad situations. Thus, to me, it really means something when I say that Maharaji abused us all. After all, his fraudulent personality cult was really the ultimate mind fuck.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 00:15:57 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: The problem with hyperbole - Let's Plan
Message:
1. 'One thousand percent responsible', Jim? If that's not hyperbole of the most obvious kind, I don't know what is. One thousand percent means ten times something.

2. 'That, as far as I'm concerned, is criminal negligence.'
Any chances of laying charges? If not, that, my friend, is another blatant case of hyperbole. If there are, let's make a plan.

Thank you for the post,

Steve

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 01:38:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Well, that's GOOD hyperbole
Message:
1. 'One thousand percent responsible', Jim? If that's not hyperbole of the most obvious kind, I don't know what is. One thousand percent means ten times something.

Yeah, but this obviously just means 'fully'. There's no danger that someone's going to take it any other way -- as 1,000 percent's impossible. Murder isn't.

2. 'That, as far as I'm concerned, is criminal negligence.'
Any chances of laying charges? If not, that, my friend, is another blatant case of hyperbole. If there are, let's make a plan.

No, I mean it seriously. I think a case could well be made that Maharaji should have known that his anti-mind campaign could have triggered such catastrophes. There are a few steps from there to a criminal charge though and, frankly, it ain't ever going to happen. But the point is, whether I'm wrong or not, I mean 'criminal negligence'. I'm not speaking figuratively. But no, there's no way he'd ever be charged for this.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 03:05:42 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Jim
Subject: Well, that's GOOD hyperbole - are you sure?
Message:
'One thousand percent responsible' sounds really cheap to an accountant.

'But no, there's no way he'd ever be charged for this.'

You're teasing me, Jim. Why not?

Steve

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 01:04:14 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: The problem with hyperbole - Let's Plan
Message:
2. 'That, as far as I'm concerned, is criminal negligence.' Any chances of laying charges? If not, that, my friend, is another blatant case of hyperbole.

Actually, Steve, it can be impossible to charge someone who has committed a crime. There can be insufficient evidence, illegal searches, statutes of limitations, double jeopardy, diplomatic immunity, etc., etc. Not all of these are relevant in maharaji's case, but you get the drift.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 15:57:22 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Question for Michael Dettmers
Message:
Thanks for providing us with insights into the inner workings of maharaji's organization, and for being so frank about it.

My curiosity is peaked by an aspect that occurs in any power base or hierarchy, and certainly must have occured in maharaji's group. And I'm wondering how it played a part in your involvement.

As Jim pointed out, most of the premies had very little complexity to deal with in their day to day lives, and with sorting out who was who in the cult. Basically we were nobodies because we had no rank or standing, but at the same time we were terribly special because we had recognized the living Lord and he had accepted us.

Our pursuit of Truth was mixed with establishing ourselves as 'somebodies', and the arrogance was pretty palpable, as it still is in the cult today.

So I'm wondering if you could write a little bit about that. When you were transferred from Canada to Denver in the seventies, what effect did it have on your... (I hate this word), 'ego'?

I know if it had been me I would have thought I was the most kick-ass dude around. Then, if I'd been the one to turn around the organization to be effective financially, I would have thought I was God's gift and the cat's meow.

And, if after doing that maharaji had called me in to his office, and I'd thought I was going to get the boot, but instead was made his personal assistant... well, I have to say, my head would have been so fucking swelled, I would have needed a wheelbarrow to get it out of the room.

If it had been me, my involvement would have been so enmeshed with my own sense of self worth, that the pursuit of what was then thought to be purity would have been a pretty confusing lot. I would have been trying to convince myself and everyone else that my interest was in something pure, but in fact I would have been interested in ruling the world.

So... how was that aspect of the whole thing for you? Did you feel like you were quite the shiny motherfucker? Did you feel like God had chosen you to sit at the dinner table?

What I'm trying to say, is that if it had been me, I would have had as hard a time reconciling that I wasn't God, much less maharaji.

But you may be a much more sober cowboy, so I don't know.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 21:24:00 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: You one shiny mofo Rick :) -nt-
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 08:01:23 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Eveyone
Subject: Hear! Hear! Pure Genius -nt-
Message:
awesome
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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 16:25:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Great question, Rick
Message:
Yeah, that ego thing was fun, tricky and fraught with an almost limitless amount of hypocrisy.

By the way, did I ever tell you that I was once the publications coordinator for all of western Canada? That included sending publications to Edmonton, Regina, Nelson, Calgary and maybe even Winnipeg from my Headquarters in Vancouver. Honestly, that was me.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:18:27 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Great question, Rick
Message:
Did I ever tell you that I got to lay out the table cloth on the publications table a few times? I also got to vacuum 'the room' once. Yuk to serve-us--it all seemed like a nasty bit of business to me (free manual labour).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 20:50:33 (GMT)
From: John K
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey y'all, I was important too !!
Message:
Hey, no lie, but I was once the food coordinator of the entire d.c. premie community. I was known far and wide as simply John Food.
Now is that cool or what?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 17:37:43 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: pretty impressive, Jim (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 19:42:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention
Message:
I was also the treasurer in Calgary and did NOT embezzle a dime. I did leave the ashram with my assistant, Deborah, though. Does that count?

Funny story:

When Nelson, B.C. took off as a Maharaji cult hotbed in '74, there were three likely candidates for the plumb position of Community Co-ordinator (DUO director? General Secretary? Can'
t recall) -- Peter Martineau, John Bufton and me. We were the Vancouver ashram stalwarts, pretty much, then. Well, at least Gary Ockendon, Vancouver's CC and regional director for western Canada, thought so.

Neleson was a dream! Beautiful, idyllic spot on a lkae in the heart of the interior. Everyone wanted to go there to learn detachment. It sure beat working, in any event. I asked Gary to go but he sent John instead. Why? The reason he gave me was that he thought I'd 'run off with the housemother.'

So he sent Peter and Peter immiediately ran off with the housemother.

So I asked again. Again, same answer. Gary sent John instead.

It took John about two weeks before he, too, ran off with the housemother (different housemother, of course.)

I never got to go. Somewhere, somehow, I think there must be a housemother soul mate for me. Okay, actually I've found her but, well I confess, she's a

non-premie!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 19:49:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, fucked that up
Message:
Trying to do a few things at once here.

Peter went first and ran off with the housemother.

John went second and did the same thing.

In and around then, by the way, Mahatma Tejeshwarand snuck out of one k session -- the one where most of the initiates saw Maharaji and other hockey greats in the light -- to fuck some girl. Gary Ockendon took over for mahatma ji, pretending to be him, I guess, going around 'giving light', while Tej supposedly 'took rest'.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 20:10:02 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, fucked that up
Message:
Interesting story, Jim.

There was a guy in the Honolulu community named Dan Powilson who used to give satsang about how if you think you can realize God, then that's your ego, and if you think you can't realize God, then that's your ego also.

So everywhere you turn there's your fucking ego. I suspect there were more people who secretly thought they were hot shit than those who thought they were worthless.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 01:14:37 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Oh P-man!
Message:
Rick: You accused me of being one of those types! Trust me -- you couldn't get away with that being a 17 year old ashram resident. Unless you, P-man, were especially sensitive....

Nice reading you in your real name,
Marianne

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 16:17:08 (GMT)
From: P-man
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Oh P-man!
Message:
I don't understand what you're saying here, Marianne. What 'type' did I accuse you of being? A 'hot shit' type? When you were a premie? Or as an ex?

And what would my being sensitive have to do with it? I felt more sensitively at 17, but act more sensitively at 47, if you can believe that. Can I still get away with anything? Let me know exactly how much.

I didn't get into the cult till I was 23 and almost moved into the ashram at 25 but never quite made it, thank God.

I still think you were being unreasonable about the therapist who mentioned maharaji to her client.

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:54:43 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: P-man
Subject: Oh P-man!
Message:
Rick: I was not trying to stir stuff up between us. You said I must have been one of the sanctimonious types when I was a premie.

Since you brought it up, there is actually a state investigation going on concerning the therapist. That's all I can really say about it at this time.

I am glad to see that you are using your real name.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:44:02 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: my real name
Message:
Why are you glad I'm using my real name? I mean, it's always nice to be able use your real name, I understand that.

I know you aren't stirring things up, Marianne. That's very interesting about the therapist. I wish I did know the details but I understand that's not possible.

If the therapist was using her position to recruit cult members or even proselytize, then I agree she should be sanctioned, disciplined, or arrested... whatever they do. I just couldn't gather that much from what the woman said about it.

Maybe when the investigation is over?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 17:16:35 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Huh! Big Deal, Jim...
Message:
I made the arti candles for an isolated, non-ashram community which peaked at thirty premies + aspirants for a while. Oh yeah, I also compiled the devotional songbook, took weekend stints on the food-co-op market stall, did a bit of night-time fly-posting and went jumbling (for non-UK residents that means knocking on people's doors asking for their old clothes so you can resell them for 'charity').

Lowly, perhaps, but oh such precious opportunities.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 22:45:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Oh yeah?
Message:
Well

I

was hand-picked to go do 'frontier prachar' in the small interior town of Kelowna, B.C. That meant that I was a 'strong' ashram premie and not likely to 'fall' (this was long after I didn't get picked to be CC in Nelson). So don't tell me about importance, Nigel.

BTW, did you see 'Saving Grace'? Watched it last night. Starts off really promising and that actress, the same one from 'Secrets and Lies' is just fantastic. But the movie ground down into nonsense, even for an english comedy.

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:21:54 (GMT)
From: PAM
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well i thought it was fantastic!
Message:
Dear Jim,

Laughed I nearly died!

PAM

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:10:23 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: BTW Jim, speaking of Kelowna ....
Message:
Ever do tree-planting around there?
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:34:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: BTW Jim, speaking of Kelowna ....
Message:
No
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 00:05:42 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: BTW Jim, speaking of Kelowna ....
Message:
Hmmm.... I could have sworn someone I met there was you, even though we haven't met otherwise. Did you live in a hippie biker 'village' of converted itinerant farmers' one room 'townhouses', some series of which had been turned into single dwellings for small families?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 05:12:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: BTW Jim, speaking of Kelowna ....
Message:
No
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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 23:04:42 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maybe, but here's what I ALSO did...
Message:
I stood at the entrance to a shortcut into the Malaga bullring through the kiddie play area - all day telling premies in my best authoritian manner that - no - they couldn't get in this way, they'd have to go round the long, long way and face all the queues at the main entrance.

'Why not?' they asked me.

'I don't know, but you're not allowed to - Agya.'

Crazy. There was no earthly reason people shouldn't come and go that way and avoid the awful bottlenecks around doorways and stairs. This was about the third day of the festival and everyone was already registered, so that wasn't the reason.

Haven't seen Saving Grace but thought Secrets and Lies was excellent. The trouble with a lot of these low-budget Brit pics is that they were originally made-for-TV dramas (a la Full Monty) and often don't translate very well either to feature film audiences or the Hollywood palette, whilst being perfect for their original medium.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 23:43:21 (GMT)
From: oh yeah
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I drove a golfcart at millinium(nt)
Message:
xyz bob m swaps his change from one pocket to the other, saying 'this is how we are paying for it'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 00:56:06 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: oh yeah
Subject: And not forgetting that weekend in Reigate...
Message:
..helping prepare the grounds for Heil-Hamster's UK mansion.

Freezing weather. Standing atop a builder's skip shovelling hardcore either into or out of said receptacle (can't remember which). Remember also the besuited big-league-premie fascist looking out from an upstairs window of the res, beckoning me over for a talking-to because I'd broken ranks for a sly smoke. Not because I'd taken a break so much, as because I had forgotten where I was.... Never mind that we were out in the fresh air, if I wanted to indulge in that filthy consciousness-lowering habit I would have to walk half a mile up the drive and stand outside on the leafy lane.

Outside on the leafy lane, some upper-crust retired-colonel from the mansion next door, obviously peturbed by the rag-tag-and-bobtail hobbledehoys he'd observed through his spyglass came up and demanded to know who his new neighbour was going to be...?

(Ooh-er.. what the fuck do I say?)

'Guru Maharaji Ji' was the best I could manage.

The neighbour stalked off to pen an angry epistle to The Telegraph with what might be described as an apoplectic look.

Then we went in for lunch. Except we didn't have lunch. We had satsang for two hours before lunch, and I fell asleep from sheer bloody exhaustion. Awoke feeling very guilty, but I don't think I missed anything too important. (Or is that where I lost the plot?)

After lunch, the word went around that Raja ji was coming by to inspect progress. Sure enough, soon after a big shiny Merc screeched onto the drive. Talk about divided loyalties. Do I keep grinding away at the rubble, or jump down to snatch a hit of kinship-darshan?

Hardly mattered. Shiny-suited Indian guy jumped out of car and stepped briskly into residence-to-be. PAMs only. End of magical moment.

Then we dragged tree branches around the garden aimlessly for much of the afternoon. Later, after it was dark, we had a bonfire. (This might might, or might not, be the same conflagration reported by Sir 'Burning Bush' David where he accidentally torched some of the Hamster's best sycamores. But that's another story.)

And for five minutes standing around that fire I felt pretty happy for the first and only time that whole long weekend. Up until now nothing but this cold weather, hard grind and cold, inner-focused, grin-and-bear-it company. Bleak.

But now, suddenly, this unexpected moment of communal well-being as other service-weary sods gathered from all around the vast gardens and toasted their frozen, aching limbs before this glorious blaze, like troops home from the war.

Autumn evening, leaping-flamed Guy-Fawkes fire. What more could you wish for? (- apart from a foil-wrapped jacket spud with cheese inside and a large flagon of ale? Hmm, some music and dancing, perhaps...)

Then a premie-with-a-purpose turned up and gave us spontaneous satsang about what we were doing and not doing. 'Look you chaps, this is all very nice, but let's not forget why we are really here...'

So we surrendered (God, I so wish I'd rebelled and gone in search of roasties and cider) and trudged off back towards that very special house we were forbidden to enter and god-knows-what next.

Raja Ji gave satsang in a drab and dreary hall in central London that evening. We dutifully rushed off in hastily-assembled transport and attended, and God, was the Lord's brother total crap. (Couldn't talk, couldn't do anything. No amount of cult conditioning would persuade me otherwise.)

Hmm, what else did I do in the Lord's favour? It's suddenly all flooding back..

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 18:28:09 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: great post!
Message:
Who would ever be able to relate to this stuff but premies and ex's? Once again truth is stranger than fiction.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 22:45:25 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Ruth is stranger than Richard...
Message:
Blimey, funny this post should suddenly appear after all those attempts to post it last night...

You're right though, Selene. You couldn't make it up - which is why it always so ridiculous when premies drop by to tell us we're all lying. They alone, probably, know better than anyone else that their cult was - and continues to be - a truly insane institution.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 01:08:16 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Richard just stuffs his emotions better
Message:
as or premies, the ones who come here are not obeying their agya.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 21:46:57 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Richard just stuffs his emotions better
Message:
Selene: I've lost your email address, and need to say something. Can you email me please? Thanks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 22:46:35 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: ok here is mine
Message:
selene@ocean.ccit.arizona.edu
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:08:14 (GMT)
From: someone
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA/BRIAN!!! EMPTY POST!!!!
Message:
Sorry Coach ... your notice wasn't clear. (I learned from JM)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:04:09 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Forum mechanic
Subject: MISSING REIGATE POST!!!
Message:
C'mon guys.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:06:14 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: MISSING REIGATE POST!!!
Message:
Shit - it was long, detailed - I spent ages on it and don't have the heart to type it all again...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:08:56 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Ah - found it again... Weekend in Reigate
Message:
..helping prepare the grounds for Heil-Hamster's UK mansion.

Freezing weather. Standing atop a builder's skip shovelling hardcore either into or out of said receptacle (can't remember which). Remember also the besuited big-league-premie fascist looking out from an upstairs window of the res, beckoning me over for a talking-to because I'd broken ranks for a sly smoke. Not because I'd taken a break so much, as because I had forgotten where I was.... Never mind that we were out in the fresh air, if I wanted to indulge in that filthy consciousness-lowering habit I would have to walk half a mile up the drive and stand outside on the leafy lane.

Outside on the leafy lane, some upper-crust retired-colonel from the mansion next door, obviously peturbed by the rag-tag-and-bobtail hobbledehoys he'd observed through his spyglass came up and demanded to know who his new neighbour was going to be...?

(Ooh-er.. what the fuck do I say?)

'Guru Maharaji Ji' was the best I could manage.

The neighbour stalked off to pen an angry epistle to The Telegraph with what might be described as an apoplectic look.

Then we went in for lunch. Except we didn't have lunch. We had satsang for two hours before lunch, and I fell asleep from sheer bloody exhaustion. Awoke feeling very guilty, but I don't think I missed anything too important. (Or is that where I lost the plot?)

After lunch, the word went around that Raja ji was coming by to inspect progress. Sure enough, soon after a big shiny Merc screeched onto the drive. Talk about divided loyalties. Do I keep grinding away at the rubble, or jump down to snatch a hit of kinship-darshan?

Hardly mattered. Shiny-suited Indian guy jumped out of car and stepped briskly into residence-to-be. PAMs only. End of magical moment.

Then we dragged tree branches around the garden aimlessly for much of the afternoon. Later, after it was dark, we had a bonfire. (This might might, or might not, be the same conflagration reported by Sir 'Burning Bush' David where he accidentally torched some of the Hamster's best sycamores. But that's another story.)

And for five minutes standing around that fire I felt pretty happy for the first and only time that whole long weekend. Up until now nothing but this cold weather, hard grind and cold, inner-focused, grin-and-bear-it company. Bleak.

But now, suddenly, this unexpected moment of communal well-being as other service-weary sods gathered from all around the vast gardens and toasted their frozen, aching limbs before this glorious blaze, like troops home from the war.

Autumn evening, leaping-flamed Guy-Fawkes fire. What more could you wish for? (- apart from a foil-wrapped jacket spud with cheese inside and a large flagon of ale? Hmm, some music and dancing, perhaps...)

Then a premie-with-a-purpose turned up and gave us spontaneous satsang about what we were doing and not doing. 'Look you chaps, this is all very nice, but let's not forget why we are really here...'

So we surrendered (God, I so wish I'd rebelled and gone in search of roasties and cider) and trudged off back towards that very special house we were forbidden to enter and god-knows-what next.

Raja Ji gave satsang in a drab and dreary hall in central London that evening. We dutifully rushed off in hastily-assembled transport and attended, and God, was the Lord's brother total crap. (Couldn't talk, couldn't do anything. No amount of cult conditioning would persuade me otherwise.)

Hmm, what else did I do in the Lord's favour? It's suddenly all flooding back..

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:12:19 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: FA/Brian/Nigel
Subject: FA?BRIAN!!!! EMPTY POST AGAIN!!!!
Message:
Nigel, did you check the preview? I had multiple empties, and I could tell by the preview.
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:19:12 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: FA?BRIAN!!!! EMPTY POST AGAIN!!!!
Message:
The preview was fine both times. I have posted the thing as a new thread, and it now seems to have worked, finally. BTW: I don't think the FA can do much about empty threads, I think it is a software problem which Brian is investigating.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 01:24:42 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yes, Nigel...
Message:
I know they're investigating it .. that's why they want them well-marked, remember? :-)

And sorry about not having gotten back to you yet. I'm still doing a lot of work outside (in my 'free time') getting ready for the winter.

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:03:00 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Yes, Nigel...
Message:
Sorry Stonor, I didn't mean to quibble. Just that flagging posts is useful to Brian but I think the FA said 'sorry can't help' or something.

Hey, don't worry getting back by email. I mean, by all means do, but don't feel obliged, ok? ;)

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 00:03:57 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: oh yeah
Subject: eeiiww the golf cart guys
Message:
Stopped and asked me if I wanted a ride a few times.
Must have been agya and sincere, from the heart.
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:23:27 (GMT)
From: Golf Cart Guy
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: eeiiww the golf cart guys
Message:
I beg your pardon? I was in the ASHRAM!, though I did get laid a few months later, I gave good sincere.
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 18:55:34 (GMT)
From: I didn't really...
Email: None
To: Golf Cart Guy
Subject: funny thing is I was joking
Message:
We drove from PA to Houston and arrived a week late for Millinium due to running out of money in Maryland. I never could get it right.
We got to live in some mansion they had rented for 2 months!! for the mahatmas.
I think I had a better experience than most. Nice house anyway.

Selene.

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 00:14:26 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: How bloody naive!!(nt)
Message:
branzchebladash
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 02:03:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Who is naive!!
Message:
I fucking walked.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 17:40:04 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Huh! Big Deal, Jim...
Message:
But deep down, Nigel, you knew at the time, that if anyone really got a glimpse at the grandeur of your devotion, you would have been made an initiator. It was your little secret.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 18:11:36 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Rick
Subject: Are you psychic, Rick?
Message:
How did you know that?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 17:38:47 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: You two had some carrer paths
Message:
One could have been a publisher and the other a cloth manufacture. Look at you now, a criminal layer and a (what do you do Nigel) having nothing to do but hassle guru fearing people.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 20:15:30 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: What am I? Good question...
Message:
Probably one more sin-blackened soul bound for the fiery pit...

(Actually it's psychology post-grad/teacher - but same difference, really.)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 21:53:45 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Christ died for our sins / lets not disappoint him
Message:
nt sorry didn't quite fit nt in there
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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 17:54:26 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Jim, a 'criminal layer'?
Message:
... as in 'one baaaaad fuck!

;)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 16:04:12 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Rick
Subject: Question for Michael Dettmers
Message:
Nice message. Thanks.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 05:42:35 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Some tips
Message:
Always put your own words in the subject box.

Pick the weakest part of the post to which you're responding and tear it to shreds.

When you have a good argument be sure and vet it for any weak or emotional parts as these will be a target for your opponent.

Always remain civil in the posts in which you are attacking a weak argument.

Save sarcasm, ridicule and indefensible rhetoric for separate posts.

Have Fun and Happy Hunting !!!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 11:27:05 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: To clear any confusion
Message:
Ha, very amusing.

I meant to get back to you but have had connectivity problems.

All I intended to do with my post was to state clearly how pissed off I am at Michael Dettmers, and for that matter, any of those guys who were in the higher echelon of DLM government while I was active as a premie drone. I reckon my anger is justifiable and therefore think it's reasonable that I should want to vent some of it. There is nothing more complex about it than that. I am not after Mr. Dettmers' blood. I think it was Rick that said how M could have chosen somebody other than Mr. Dettmers to manage the business and the same approximate result would have come about, so don't be too hard on him. Well yes, of course I know that and I am also still aware that M is the real villain in this drama, but the fact remains that it was Mr. Dettmers who accepted the task on offer, so he has to take whatever heat comes his way as a consequence. I have in no way inferred that I think Mr. Dettmers is lying about anything in his posts and cannot see what he could gain if he did. I am quite content to believe it all without question.

Having said that, I have been a little surprised by the amount of generosity with which most folk around here seem to have afforded Mr. Dettmers, although I wouldn't use the word fawning. It was really this cozy politeness which raised me to boiling point. I can't help feeling that one reason for this charming reception is that having got Michael to open up so dramatically, nobody wants to risk frightening him away with a torrent of abusive posts. As a matter of fact nor would I like to see him leave, (at least not just yet) and was a little concerned about whether writing so harshly to Michael was indeed 'politically correct', if you see what I mean.

So anyway, as you well know Gerry the forum is no place for political correctness. If you can't express yourself here then where the fuck can you.

BTW Gerry, I cannot hold with the idea of any conspiracy theories as you seem to infer there may be. The complexity of hum drum day to day life is hard enough to hold together without orchestrating some fabulous master deception etc. I think it is worth quickly making the point that maharaji's cult is in no way a complicated deception or conspiracy, it is in fact very very obvious. The simple reason we fell for it was I believe because of our prior conditioning. Rawat came to the west aware that there was an audience of air-headed hippies just waiting to be shafted. Once we were stuck in the quicksand it has been the devil to get out! If I understood then what I understand now I would never have paid DLM a moments thought. As my dear old mum used to say you can't put an old head on young shoulders.

Carry on being the crude lout

C

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 21:02:10 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: To clear any confusion and spread some more.
Message:
I absolutely agree with you Charlie.

I don't want to chase away MD either , I find his stories fascinating , kind of like Darshan tales for exe's , & if they can help some premie just dropping in , to think , 'wait a minute this guy admits to blowing dope with MY lord , what's going on here',then that's just fine.

Thing is I always thought that was the kind of stuff covered by confidentiality clauses.

The personal foibles stories that show well known people to be no better ( & often a great deal worse ) than you or I.

The stuff that ruins the image they present to the world , makes them a laughing stock , has people whispering behind their
hands at important social functions.

MD has done a great job recently in that respect , & thanks.

I know I was paranoid about all sorts of things when I 1st started posting here ,( probably still am a bit ), so for a former 'high ranker' to do so , must've been worse.

So what's he being confidential about?

Business dealings? But I thought where leaders of churches were concerned , they would have to be transparent.

He says all that stuff was squeaky clean.

So what is it that neither he nor Barry Bollix Shwar want revealed.

'high ranker' could be Cockney rhyming slang.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 04:53:56 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Brain rape: please respond
Message:
In a thread below, I mentioned that MJ had knocked off my tank top in a special DECA Holi, in which he also knocked another sister against a wall and hurt her back. I was saying that I considered this a very thrilling thing - like he was sending me covert message or something. I asked, 'Does this sound sick?' Jim said he would need pictures to answer, and Gail said, this was nothing compared to the brain rape you were subjected to.

So anyway, I like this term, brain rape, and I am interested in discussing the brain rape from the point of view of how it may still be affecting our lives now. I mean, I know there are all sorts of stories about how the cult raped our brains, and those are interesting too, but, you know, with rape, there are certain fears and neuroses and weird tendencies that take a lot of healing to stop repeating. And with brain rape, I think it's the same way, but just a bit more subtle, in the same way that emotional incest is more subtle than physical incest, but can f––ck you up just as badly - and sometimes worse, because you don't quite know it happened.

I just read in People magazine about what happened to the Krishna children in their school. Our stories, frankly, pale by comparison, except for Jagdeo's victims. But it doesn't mean we aren't wounded in subtle ways by this brain rape, and it can really help (me at least) to uncover these patterns and read other people's stories.

My main effects of the brain rape came in the area of my health. I was somehow programmed to believe that it was okay to override my body -- in fact it was the RIGHT thing to do, as MJ would take care of everything. And I had been a health nut before. And I am still sick now (17 years an ex).

I'm sure I will think of more ways when I read your responses which I eagerly await.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 05:07:30 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Abuse masquerading as blessings
Message:
Disculta: I did not see your post about the incidents at Holi. These reports are very disturbing to me. First of all, M felt that he was entitled to perpetrate physical abuse on you and the other person. Secondly, the cult taught us to desire attention from the Master most of all. That meant we were special. Even a physical assault was a treasured encounter with M. Better that than nothing at all. That is what happens in abusive families. Children accept beatings because it is the only attention they get. Attention from the guru at any cost to our self esteem and self preservation! That is wrong.

As for brain rape, I experienced that. I was an ashram resident for a year when I was 18. I left the ashram in order to attend college. I had always been a high achieving student. When I went to college, I found that my analytical abilities had evaporated. So had my concentration. Mind -- all of it! When I got into law school 2 years later, I really struggled my first year because of the damage done to my reasoning abilities. It was remarkable. Luckily, I was out of the cult and dived into school so much that I recovered my scholastic abilities. The shock of struggling at school was a true eye opener.


Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 06:43:18 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Abuse masquerading as blessings
Message:
A lot of exes will say that they are released of his hold, but deep inside, there is a yearning, a mysterious voice that talks to us.

I knew few premies getting sick because they wanted to be with the mahaa, me included.

He is like a rotten tooth, you can take pain killers. You can try to repair it, but in the end it has to come out.

I myself had to carve him out of my psyche and plug the hole. A lot of people find that hard to do. It is a very painful process to go through. My whole life was rouined when I did it. I went through severe depression that I still suffer from, I lost my home, car, work and family. But I could not find any other way to set me free.

Maharaji is a vampire that prays on people's souls. If the soul does not find an alternative then the person is trapped into him (maraaji).

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 10:26:57 (GMT)
From: Lurking Poster
Email: None
To: thread
Subject: Poisonwood Bible revisited
Message:
For some householders, me included, the emotional and physical abuse I accepted from my partner was my punishment for having desires or goals that were at odds with the overall purpose of life, which was to allow one of us (usually him) to get to the programs and be involved with the mission.

I was beaten when I started to assert that some of the normal objectives of raising a family should be our objective too.
By this I mean regular meals and living in one place rather that changing houses because the finances were bad.
Regular schooling for the kids-Decent meals so we all didnt get run down. Doctor visits- a car that ran.
.

These were diversions for my partner- who had sacrificed ashram life to do his duty to be with the family-providing for us was asking too much .
He resented the idea and we all suffered- the effects on my adult children are still evident to me.

In a sick way I suspected that my partner was right and I was wrong. This went on for many years.His job/income pivotted on working for the mission and its goal

I left the relationship - no child support for my boys-ever.

LP


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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 10:26:50 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Abuse masquerading as blessings
Message:
there is a lot of subtle 'Programming' and damage that has been done to me.

Has anyone ever noticed the significance of that word I'm going to a program(me) !!

It is almost as if I have been re-wired internally, and now certain programmes won't run. My Operating System is flawed, and will only run KLite - everything else either runs slowly, or causes the system to crash.

The NEEDINESS which Devotion and Nollidge and M produced in me - has strengthened childhood patterns of dependency - playing upon the instinct to RETREAT from THE WORLD (What a dangerous phrase !!) - climb under my blanket... I only want to be happy...all i want is you....all of this is temporary. etc etc.

Premies, be under no illusion, going into orbit around M can be harmful. Socially, economically, yes, but most importantly, psychologically

loaf

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 16:34:09 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Abuse masquerading as blessings
Message:
Hello All,

I was at that little Holi when at least one woman I know badly hurt her back when m turned those very powerful water pumps on her at close range. I asked her if m saw it and she said yes. She considered it lila or a lesson. She's still a true believer.

My current situation with the brainwashing is that I still retain so many deeply embedded beliefs which come up, one by one and I have to reframe those thoughts with new and correct ones.

For instance, the concept of lila, the idea that this world is an illusion so there's no point in doing anything with my life; when I have ringing in my ears M is thinking about me; if I don't practice my life will end up in ruins; M knows everything.

There are too many of these ideas to list. Of course I know they aren't true yet they are very ingrained in me. I know if my ears are ringing he isn't thinking about me, but I instantly remember that myth if it happens.

The biggest one for me, though, which has held me back in my own professional development, is that life is an illusion, so why bother doing anything.

One of the last few times I saw m, he was saying: we are born, we live, then we die, what are we going to do with the living part.

What this says to me is that he has changed some of his choices of words but continues to program premies, aspirants, new comers by saying that if one doesn't receive k, and you die, you've missed out on the most 'perfect opportunity.'

I am amazed at how much of that junk still lingers in my mind and haunts me. So I just plug away at reframing the thoughts, and hope for the best.

Praying is a tough one for me. I used to pray to mah a lot. I wrote prayers in journals. What a shithead he is!

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 17:52:08 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Abuse masquerading as blessings
Message:
'Praying is a tough one for me. I used to pray to mah a lot. I wrote prayers in journals. What a shithead he is!'

This is very sad. I went through this for quite a while, and then went through a change and went back to what you might call prayer. I had been praying to a loving power via MJ, although the overlay of MJ on this was very confusing, when he would act less than lovingly. Somehow, I decided (after leaving and exploring other possibilities) to start thinking of this power as the Great Mother (in various ways - from nature to Mary) and this allowed me to keep the good part of my previous connectin (which was really impossible to deny) and discard the rest. Not that there isn't still some spiritual trauma from the spiritual brain rape. But I am recovering, spiritually as well as psychologically. The power I connect with cares personally about me, body, mind and feelings as well as soul, and I get a lot of wonderful synchronistic experiences through prayer. BTW, I set it up quite specifically that the only power or energy or whatever you want to call it that I was interested in connecting with had to fulfill these requirements. I didn't want another brainraper. And I have to say it has worked quite well on the whole. Amazing things happen both internally and externally in response to my prayers. When I was with MJ this used to happen, but they would all be related to him - at least, mostly - like miraculously getting to a program or something. Now the miracles are for me and my life.

What Loaf said about dependency really hit home for me, and the thing about hiding under the blanket against the world. This morning I woke up and it was too cold and I actually called my husband on the phone (at the computer in the next room) to come and put another blanket on me. I felt too needy to get up and do it myself. I do the same for him in other ways, so it is nice and healing, but I am aware that this pattern of neediness and dependency, which I probably brought into the situation with MJ at some level, although I was certainly operating in powerful, independent ways pre-knowledge, was etched very deeply through the encouragement of the particular brainwashing of needing MJ for enlightenment.

What crap!

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 01:57:26 (GMT)
From: Stonora
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: 'why bother doing anything'
Message:
Hi Disculta and Cynthia,

The biggest one for me, though, which has held me back in my own professional development, is that life is an illusion, so why bother doing anything.

Not even with a question mark: this is what strikes me as most sad and blasphemous on the part of the m-trip, which is the Advaita-Vedanta trip taken to an extreme.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 08:25:01 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Stonora
Subject: 'why bother doing anything'
Message:
It's amazing isn't it? There's a ditty that goes ...

There is no Bodhi tree,
nor stand of mirror bright.
Since all is void,
where can the dust alight?

To which one can only reply ...

Come, dear Sophist,
your argument confounds.
For if there is no is,
where did you right it down?

It's all an illusion? Nope, there is such a thing as reality. But THAT sure is an illusory claim.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 16:35:39 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Dear John T.
Message:
I liked your post so much I have copied and pasted it into my collection!
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 21:50:12 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: C'est pourquoi! Thank you. :)) -nt-
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 11:17:54 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: 'why bother doing anything'
Message:
Stoner. Cynthia.

What Cynthia statement convey, is the a typical Radhasoami/San-Matt self-appointed MAN-GURU-GOD crap.

Fatty had persistently asked us again and again to ignore anything that came between him and us, did not matter what it was, whether family, friends, education, personal affairs or whatever. This was all mind and we were supposed to ignore it by listening to him and doing meditation. It was true about meditation, because it will take you away from your reality, lowers your anxiety and but you in a different frame of mind. Probably I can be right to say that most exes did that. In case we did not do all the above we prayed to m, something on the line “Oh my Guru Maharaji, you are so powerful, I am in your shelter, please help me, please protect me, thank you my lord”

In Cynthia’s case and seeing how much effort she must have put in the DECA project, I would say that she ran herself into oblivion serving m.

Imagine if all that single mindedness was taken away from her (by her own rejection) would not that leave a chasm to cross and a large empty void to fill?

I do not blame Cynthia for feeling and thinking

“…Life is an illusion, so why bother…”

I do not think anger is enough. Maybe furiously and totally pissed off comes closer to describing her (especially in that post to MD), but to Cynthia’s credit, she is totally civilized and composed, though I think saying FUCK OFF every now and then is in order. But then that is her choice.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 17:17:09 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Remember this
Message:

Yes I remember him saying
'If anything comes between you and Guru Maharaj Ji, regard it as your enemy and strike it out of the way'
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 15:23:35 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Remember this....
Message:
I had two perps, one my father, then goomraji. I was prime pickings when I first went to m.

At age 15 I became a cynic and skeptic, so for me to have even entered that satsang room was a big stretch for me. When I was 15, I was still going to church, brought up Roman Catholic, but at the time I was a member of the Episcopalian faith. I had read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged in two days, then went to the teen 'Sunday School' and declared I was now an atheist. Needless to say, it caused quite a stir.

In the 70's I was a hippie, but I abhorred the eastern trips abounding in the US at the time, and never got involved with political issues. I just wanted to have some fun in my life.

Looking back, it's no surprise to me I was so vulnerable to the cult. I was looking for someone to love me unconditionally and I got royally hooked on m. I believed his every word.

Now I know that the only person who can love me unconditionally is ME. Indeed, I have much more work to do in terms of deprogramming myself, but I am so grateful to all of you who have the patience to stick it out with me.

As I've said before, I don't have to explain what it's like to have been in the cult here. You all know very well.

For that, I am grateful,
Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 04:26:26 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: a few questions for Michael Dettmers....
Message:
Michael-I wanted to thank you for these detailed answers that you provide to the various questions posed here...this process is extremely valuable in the unravelling/piecing together process that many of us are going through....I think this information is the best tool we have for cutting through the propaganda and spin tht we see coming from m's website, and in his talks these days, as he tries to revise the past...

I have a bunch of questions, here's a few...

1)Can you elaborate more on the San Yesidro meeting with Will Schutz? Things like-

when?

why?

who is Will?

format?

did m know what the meeting was about, or was he surprised, and view it as a 'setup' of sorts?

was it mostly about the 'playing god' issue, organizational structure,personal problems...?

was the issue of the 'drinking problem' brought up there? (or at another meeting, either there or somewhere else?)

regarding m's 'drinking problem'-can you elaborate more on how and when and why you told him he had one? How did you feel before, during and after you told him? (Personally, I think that must have taken a lot of balls to say...I'm just curious how you managed to do it, and what was m's reaction?)

regarding his drinking, where there other attempts to deal with it, such as interventions, counseling, AA type meetings...
do you think it affected his work?
In what ways?

Do you think m ultimately listens to anyone, regarding the seeming state of denial he lives in, in regards to his problems?

How do other PAMS treat all this stuff?

Has his wife ever tried to get him into rehab?

does raja ji have similar problems? I've heard he has had a coke problem....

I feel that this stuff is important, mainly because of the extreme importance that is placed on m in the whole process of practicing knowledge...I never suspected any of this stuff, ever, and I knew a lot of premies, many of them in fairly high places in the premie world...I am shocked, saddened, and angry about all of this, and feel that the morally correct thing to do is to tell everyone the truth and let them make up their own minds about all of this...

Thanks again,
La-ex

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 12:06:32 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Was he drunk or stoned on stage? !!!! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 06:22:19 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Does HE still beat HIS wife!!! (NT)
Message:
yes
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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 05:11:50 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: a few questions for Michael Dettmers....
Message:
Yes, I want to add a hearty 'hear hear' to la-ex's post. Michael, I know you are being yelled at here, and may from time to time wonder whether you have gotten into something more than you wanted to. I'm a premie who knew about the X-rated stuff (actually I e-mailed you recently and you mistook me for someone else with the same name and I am here anonymously).

Although I knew about it from an ex-instructor, I have to say that I have had a big awakening in seeing the reactions that people have been having to hearing about it here, especially in the stark, non-sensational way you are presenting it. I guess I took it for granted, and now, seeing the hurt and shock that many of the so-called 'rank and file' ex-premies are having in reading that this person for whom they slaved and went through great deprivation and in whom they trusted completely was such a hypocritical slob - it is waking me up to just how deep a betrayal this whole thing was.

I nosed around the inner circle myself, and like most premies, I certainly wanted to be there, and I experienced the switch in standards that would take place once one really got to know the habits of MJ's and Raja Ji's families. I left 17 years ago and my life has flourished, other than a few wounds, particularly illness, which I feel that the cult programming definitely contributed to. Like you, I have gotten on with my life and found my own work path, and so on. Yet I am amazed that I am still 'debriefing' this stuff at certain levels. It was so intense. It's a bit like the way people in their twenties don't usually want to think about their childhoods, even though they are deeply affected and maybe wounded by them, because their main imperative is to get on with setting up their lives. Then, in their 30s and 40s, they may start doing therapy or something. The time has come, sometimes, where the next step is to regress to progress.

I don't know if this is true for you, but in any case, I ask you to keep answering these questions. What people really want to hear is, how did the con work at such a close range? They can't quite believe that you were conned (I do), at the same time as knowing all the shitty stuff you knew.

Thanks for your honesty and for hanging in here helping us to clear stuff up that you are uniquely positioned to do.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 20:01:32 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: **BEST OF** above
Message:
why best of?

Because this touched a chord in me that I hope others can relate to:

'Like you, I have gotten on with my life and found my own work path, and so on. Yet I am amazed that I am still 'debriefing' this stuff at the way people in their twenties don't usually want to think about their childhoods, even though they are deeply affected and maybe wounded by them, because their main imperative is to get on with setting up their lives.

Then, in their 30s and 40s, they may start doing therapy or something. The time has come, sometimes, where the next step is to regress to progress.'

Thanks Disculta. It all helps.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 13:20:13 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: a few questions for Michael Dettmers....
Message:
Disculta: They can't quite believe that you were conned (I do), at the same time as knowing all the shitty stuff you knew.

I find myself in this position. On the one hand your sincerity is pretty clear (to me, anyway) from both what you say and how you say it. On the other hand, I can't quite get my head round what the heck you thought you were doing.

I suffer a disadvantage in this respect, compared to many folk here, as I have no first hand experience of believing THAT impossible dream. It's almost funny... usually I have little difficulty believing and understanding revelations about how the pretence actually worked. For example, Rawat's depravity, to me, is a pretty obvious corollary of his (to me, ludicrous) claims. Was I suprised about X-rated premies? Er, no, actually. I was more suprised at the impact it made - tho Marianne's thoughtful exegesis helped me understand that aspect of things.

Am I suprised that people who got to know Rawat still Believed? and even now Believe? Uh, yes, immensely. I could not believe from a vast distance. How could others get close-up and personal, yet still Believe?

Most people here are hungry for information about what was going on behind the scenes, and I am sure from all the thankfulness expressed that your efforts are well applied in answering such questions.

When the pressure for objective answers fades somewhat, I would be most interested to learn of your subjective processes. For example, I would be interested to learn what you thought was going on; how you felt you fitted in; how you understood Bob Mishler's exit from the cult; how did you see Rawat at first - how and why did those perceptions change??

I accept that healing (DLM/DUO) Rawat's abuses with honest answers about his modus operandi is the most important thing. But when you can - please could you explain to this plain joe how the heck it all happened to you - and what it felt like.

Respect.

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