Hal -:- Up shit creek -without a paddle ! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 13:27:15 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- Up shit creek -without a paddle ! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 22:08:04 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- Nice one Binnie nice one son ! nt -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 23:31:37 (GMT)

__ cq -:- Up creek sans poodle -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:33:27 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- Up creek sans poodle -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 23:38:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- Pray? who to? and talking of Shit Creek ... -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:26:57 (GMT)

__ Liz -:- We're still on the same wavelength, Pal - mean Hal -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:28:50 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- We're still on the same wavelength, Pal - mean Hal -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 23:21:03 (GMT)

__ Mili -:- No 'magic power' there, Hal. -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 13:42:09 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- No 'magic power', eh, Mili? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 16:59:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mili -:- No 'magic power', eh, Mili? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:09:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- No 'magic power', eh, Mili? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:55:38 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- 'Clarity'? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 16:37:35 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Maharaji will always have followers -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:57:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Way -:- They never give up! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 16:44:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- My Favorite Fraud... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:22:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Zen Master Rama -- Information please -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:24:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Zen Master Rama -- Information please -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 15:26:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- You want links? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:33:51 (GMT)

Mark -:- Thanks to Shp and Dettmers -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 07:56:03 (GMT)

__ Disculta -:- Thanks to Shp and Dettmers -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:06:28 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- Is shp jumping ship? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:29:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ JohnT -:- The shp leaves the sinking rat, perhaps... -nt- -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 09:22:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Dawkins, of course! (Nyuh ah AH!!) (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:33:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Way -:- If shp becomes an evolutionist, I'll eat my hat!nt -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:38:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I agree. shp becomes reasonable,? I will too (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:47:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- It's a deal! (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:49:39 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Great post Mark. nt -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 08:51:49 (GMT)

__ Jethro -:- Cor blimey.You should write for the newspapers(nt) -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 08:13:26 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- A bit soapy........nt -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 08:41:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ ham -:- And what's wrong with a bit of peace, love and -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 09:33:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Absolutely nothing. (nt:) -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 12:57:22 (GMT)

Jim -:- Dear premies, welcome to my nightmare -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:51:34 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- Halloween Time Is The Right Time For This Shit -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:27:50 (GMT)

__ Blue Max -:- Rapter letter -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 01:24:31 (GMT)

__ a0aji -:- Dear premies, welcome to my nightmare -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 01:21:12 (GMT)

__ gerry -:- omigod, Jim you are on a roll -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 01:11:24 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- 'phone number of the heart' ... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 19:12:47 (GMT)

__ __ Eiregirl -:- Hey geRrY.. -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:39:48 (GMT)

__ __ shp -:- Let's just talk a bit about breath without the -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:02:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- shp, I love you, man! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:25:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Me too shp, I love you too, man! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 13:08:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- What would the Hamster say about sleep apnea? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:40:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- What would the Hamster say about sleep apnea? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 00:41:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh yeah? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 03:36:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mili -:- What would the Hamster say about sleep apnea? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 07:39:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Breath consciousness -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 15:00:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Breath consciousness -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:00:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Breath consciousness -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:14:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Breath consciousness -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:18:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- What consciousness is? Try this: -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:59:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- What consciousness is? Try this: -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 09:29:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- How can you talk with someone like Mili? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:10:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- I confess, Jim. -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:52:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Intellectual Integrity -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:04:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- So what's real then? -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 08:12:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Breath consciousness -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:45:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're talking in circles, Mili -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 07:48:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- I suppose you want to debate the fact that -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:25:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steven Quint -:- It's Election Day - I Nominate shp For Satguru nt -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:01:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- If that is how you really feel, then post less and -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 20:38:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Are you really so stupid? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 12:05:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- What about your kidneys or your heart or your live -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 12:37:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Fuck the breath, I worship my gut... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 16:17:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Gerr, is this a wind-up? -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 09:17:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Not a wind-up but you decide... -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 14:59:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Fuck the breath, I worship my gut... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:14:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Boo-ya! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 16:46:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Ham, do you really need me to do your thinking -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 12:58:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- And there was I thinking premies had no humour -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 08:48:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- You can e-mail me anytime, Ham -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 12:32:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Don't be so certain, but without an e-mail -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 06:38:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Ham, do you really need me to do your thinking -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:17:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Who will you get to do your thinking, Mili... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 15:54:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Ok, Nigel. You win -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:16:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Ok, Nigel. You win -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 19:05:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Ok, Nigel. You win -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:51:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Ham, do you really need me to do your thinking -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 15:08:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ shp -:- What would the Hamster say about sleep apnea? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:53:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- shp, gotta agree with Jim on that one -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:02:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- shp, gotta agree with Jim on that one -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:07:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- five bucks -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:34:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- five bucks....Green bucks. -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:39:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- Jim, gotta agree with shp on this one.. -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:49:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Don't either of you cult members get my point? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:15:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- Cult members, what cult members? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:29:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Are you really that simple? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:39:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- The Breath/Matrix function -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:50:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- The Journeying Soul-US-WE are of the higher -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:02:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- The Journeying Soul-US-WE are of the higher -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 10:31:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- The Journeying Soul-US-WE are of the higher -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:44:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Should we support a fraud? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:15:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Should we support a fraud? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 20:36:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- No offense shp but....... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 23:26:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- The Journeying Soul-US-WE are of the higher -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 15:42:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- The Journeying Soul-US-WE are of the higher -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 16:19:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I don't know if I'm making myself clear -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:09:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- As a man thinketh, so is he and other cliches... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 20:52:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- A one-armed scale is no scale at all -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 00:45:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Maybe I have seen something beyond your skyline -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 04:20:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- HA HA HA! YOU JUST PROVED MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:52:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- As a man thinketh, so is he and other cliches... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 21:13:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- As a man thinketh, so is he and other cliches... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 22:53:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Fantasizing -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 23:36:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- The Journeying Soul-US-WE are of the higher -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:15:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Listen to these guys talk to each other! (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:17:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- THEN WHAT ABOUT SLEEP APNEA?????? (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:04:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- You don't want my opinion, you want M's, so why -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:14:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- oh, shit, not that hoodoo guru shit! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 06:29:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- OK Roger, ask yourself! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:47:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yes, I do feel better now. Thank you from... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 20:20:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's three times now you've avoided the question -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:18:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- That's three times...now I get a spanking? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:33:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, shp, how about this? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:38:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Okay, Jim, how about THIS? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:56:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- shp sticks his fingers in his ears -- funny? sad? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:50:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- The Breath/Matrix function -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:59:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What the fuck ......? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:58:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- What the fuck ......? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:06:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Fair enough --- so can we tie this up? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:09:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- We can tie it up-if it's fair! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:28:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Cute, but you're just forcing me to ask........ -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:31:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- Cute, but you're just forcing me to ask........ -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:44:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Think about what you're saying -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:52:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Think about what YOU'RE saying -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:07:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- *****ALERT! ALERT! NEW AGE CLICHE!******* -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 07:41:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- *****ALERT! ALERT! NEW AGE CLICHE!******* -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:37:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- LOL! Jim gets the cigar, I think -nt- -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 13:25:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- Hawaiian Cigar -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:31:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- Think about what YOU'RE saying -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:11:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- See Blue Max, he baits you into a question, acts -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:37:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- See Blue Max, he baits you into a question, acts -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:55:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Touche! (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:59:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- When Gore wins, I want you to take the fiver and -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:32:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- Jim Heller -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:39:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Mos Eisley...you crack me up, Blue Max! -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:43:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Your point is dull and so are you -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:27:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Luke wasn't one of the Twelve nt -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:49:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Speckity speck speck speck -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:09:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Speckity speck speck speck -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:25:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Speckity speck speck speck -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:48:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Speckity speck speck speck -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 12:22:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- We both believe in God, and all the rest is -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:58:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ 20 years -:- We both believe in God, and all the rest is -:- Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 14:13:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- So you CAN'T answer the question? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:43:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- One minute you call me a moron and the next -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:53:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I knew it -- get lost if you're so gutless -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:01:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Accuser and Abuser of mental invalids, kiss my -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:26:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- shp you bum, have you read MD reply to you? -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:45:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Yes, I read Michael's reply and no, that is not -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:05:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- You're welcome -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:12:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Hey Salam, listen here a minute.... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:16:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- English sucks.....nt -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 08:29:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Maybe -:- Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:33:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- By my count, that's four (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:28:29 (GMT)

cq -:- Anything Goes -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 18:49:23 (GMT)

__ The Nitpicker -:- Anything Goes -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 22:08:43 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- Many thanks for posting a working link (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 19:19:00 (GMT)

__ Blue Max -:- Joan Rapter -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:20:59 (GMT)

__ __ JohnT -:- Joan Raptor -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:54:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ Blue Max -:- Joan Raptor -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 22:20:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- A Dress for Joan -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 22:46:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Blue me! :) -nt- -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:19:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ me -:- No family gopi Joan -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:02:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- No family gopi Joan -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:27:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Carb Uncle -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:51:38 (GMT)

Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 13:27:15 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Up shit creek -without a paddle ! Message:

I feel for the loyalist, still devoted premie contingent. They're still convinced that any doubts about Goom Rodgie come from the demon mind. That ex premies have been seduced by the dark side of the force. Jim is Darth Vader and Mike Dettmers just a bitter ex employee. Stand firm, stand fast chaps. Loyalty and trust. Admirable qualities when directed to the right person. As Miragy always said ' Let go premies, surrender...' Surrender to the overwhelming evidence that any integrity , any goal that Maha perhaps had once -to bring the Truth as he saw it , to this planet has been replaced by naked greed and desire for more goodies. Still holding on to the dream that one day that little guy is gonna show this sorry world his true power? Embarking on the annual pilgrimage to see him? Getting a fix and then soon becoming depressed by the earthy realities to be faced? Premies go to these programmings and return uplifted, with some new hope and inspiration. Not realising at all that they're cult members worshipping a cardboard cutout. Projecting onto a hopeless egomaniac they're dreams for a golden age. Shame. Dealing with denial is tough. Having the courage to admit to being duped can be shattering. It can also be liberating beyond belief! It is amazing to me that so many premies come on here claiming that they are not part of his work or organisation. How they never gave much financially and still don't. How so many say that they never saw him as a manifestation of the highest power. Just in those statements they're confessing that they took what he said with a grain of salt. They didn't really trust him in other words! They never fucking really believed him? Premies so often express a belief that his organisation has nothing to do with him or his wishes and that those elan vital dudes are just doing their own thing. Try telling that to the boss! Denial , denial DENIAL! I suspect that a big problem for many preemies is that they do have an enjoyable and therapeutic time in meditation. There's no denying that knowledge works for them. They are sure that there is some magic power coming by the grace of the master. No matter what evidence comes their way that there is something suspect about this so called perfect master it can't be true because there is an undeniable EXPERIENCE: I can understand that because I too EXPERIENCE an undeniabele contentment and balance when I focus my attention on the stillness inside. I too enjoy sitting quietly sometimes and the same 'stuff' is there as it always was. I don't however project that stuff onto anything or anyone external. It's me , mine and always was. I'm no longer allowing some guy( who doesn't sound like a particularly endearing character ) tell me that he holds the keys to my experience of my Self. Yes it's gonna be very tough for these guys when the premie , oops I mean penny drops finally after all those years . When the alarm sounds so loud that it's undeniable. Time to wake up!!! I hope that when that time comes for them that the participants on this forum will assist them in the same way that they helped me to break free ! Yippee. Thanks Hal

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 22:08:04 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Hal Subject: Up shit creek -without a paddle ! Message:

Hey Hal , you clairvoyant or something. That's me you're describing , or was until I got connected to the modern world. Like most 'in the woodwork' premies I never knew anything about him apart from vague rumours. Only this site has given me the information to realise what a dupe I've been. I used to get the piss taken in the late 70's for being in the woodwork by a few ashram premies , & I used to think 'why am I getting picked on , I come to satsang 2 or 3 times a week. I knew people who were VERY deeply in. (the woodwork) Interestingly , at the jubilee bash in Rome 96 I saw a lot of them , but very few old ashram premies. Never made the connection , didn't have the information to do so. & I was just pleased by then that the old heaviness seemed to have faded away. It is tough leaving , & it's a process not a sudden revelation. So come on all you people who like hallucinagenic cacti for breakfast (joke) , & still believe Barry is god , take a trip through cyberspace & get re-connected to reality. It hurts.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 23:31:37 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: Nice one Binnie nice one son ! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:33:27 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Hal Subject: Up creek sans poodle Message:

Would it be fair to draw an analogy between the so-called 'Master' with 'his' knowledge (and the various experiences of meditation that are claimed to be his,) - to draw an analogy between that and the drug-dealer who sells some particularly potent shit, and consequently finds him/herself in demand and more credible as a 'purveyor of the real thing'? The attitude could be summed up as: 'For sure the dealer's cool if the trip is a high one.' . . . . What premies forget is that the dealer (in the case of the 'Knowlege' - the Maha) is in the game primarily to ensnare more customers, regardless of the dependency that his custom creates. As you say, Hal: 'Having the courage to admit to being duped can be shattering. It can also be liberating beyond belief!' . Unfortunately the canary who's been in the cage too long, when faced with a way out of the cage, often returns to the familiarity of imprisonment.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 23:38:48 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: cq Subject: Up creek sans poodle Message:

Chris , Sans poodle, you witty chappie! Things for me were clarified the other day when I met a couple of premies I hadn't seen for months. I listened to a sickening report of how wonderful the programming in barcelona was. How beautiful to do service. What a great journey there with all the other premies. I thought as I was listening ' they don't think do they ? They really believe that they are superior to Moonies and evangelists and all the other happy clappers. They really don't know they're in a crazy little cult.' I don't think I'll be going back into the cage but pray for me! Best to you Hal

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:26:57 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Hal Subject: Pray? who to? and talking of Shit Creek ... Message:

The question that is on everyone's lips.... WHO IS JACK SCHITT? Many people are at a loss for a response when someone says; 'You don't know Jack Schitt'. Now, you can handle the situation. Jack is the only son of Awe Schitt and O. Schitt. Awe Schitt, the fertilizer magnate, married O. Schitt, the owner of Knee-deep in Schitt, Inc. In turn, Jack married Noe Schitt and the couple produced 6 children: Holie Schitt, the twins (Deep Schitt and Dip Schitt), Fulla Schitt, Giva Schitt and Bull Schitt, a high school dropout. After being married for fifteen years, Jack and Noe divorced. Noe later married Mr. Sherlock, and because her kids were living with them, she wanted to keep her previous name. She became known as Noe Schitt-Sherlock. Dip Schitt married Loda Schitt and they produced a cowardly son, Chicken Schitt. Fulla Schitt and Giva Schitt were inseparable throughout childhood and eventually married the Happens brothers in a dual ceremony. The Schitt-Happens children are Dawg, Byrd and Horse. Bull Schitt, the prodigal son, left home to tour the world. He recently returned with his new Italian bride Pisa Schitt. So now, when someone says you don't know Jack Schitt, you can correct him or her.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:28:50 (GMT) From: Liz Email: None To: Hal Subject: We're still on the same wavelength, Pal - mean Hal Message:

Great Stuff! Your progressing leaps and bounds! This is all so true, in my humble opinion. Liz

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 23:21:03 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Liz Subject: We're still on the same wavelength, Pal - mean Hal Message:

Hi, E-mail and let me know how you're doing, please Liz.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 13:42:09 (GMT) From: Mili Email: None To: Hal Subject: No 'magic power' there, Hal. Message:

Just clarity and the simple, simple facts of life.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 16:59:03 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Mili Subject: No 'magic power', eh, Mili? Message:

Well I've called you on this one before, but anyway... In your 'lives' testimony on ELK, you conclude by writing: Honestly, after all these years, one thing stands out clearly to me: my master is not out to get my blind worship, or my money. He simply wants me to practice the Knowledge - if I want to. And if and when I do, the only ones who know about it are HIM and ME. You clearly imply Maharaji knows when you're practising K. Surely a mega-dose of magical thinking here, wouldn't you say?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:09:20 (GMT) From: Mili Email: None To: Nigel Subject: No 'magic power', eh, Mili? Message:

Not necessarily, Nigel. I am the one who knows about it, right? I don't think there's any contention there. And Maharaji is the one who knows about it when I send him an e-mail saying 'Thanks', or show up at a program, or something like that. One more attendee. Nothing magical about that. I've already been through this with you once, but you chose to conveniently forget about it. Whatever. But this is not about me, Nigel. What do you care? It's all about you, and you trying to prove some point to yourself, and establish your universal theory about people and things on some firm footing over my back. Well, it doesn't work that way. Castles made of sand slip into the sea, eventually. Inevitably.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:55:38 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Mili Subject: No 'magic power', eh, Mili? Message:

Your ELK entry makes no mention of email - and neither did our previous discussion of this. Last time you wrote that you 'like to think that Maharaji knows about it' when you meditate. So much for memory, heh? Listen, you're the one who presumes to know something about consciousness that others here don't know, but when challenged, you have nothing more than assertions to offer. We're here to talk, reflect, laugh about a funny little cult we used to belong to, and discuss the doings of its leader. If you want to join in, you'll just have to face up to challenges of dealing with those issues - something you have patently failed to do thus far. Telling us you have a lovely experience isn't going to cut much ice around here - especially when you call it proof of K. We used to say exactly the same thing to others - before we joined up all the dots and saw through the scam. You've still got the work to do, and I don't envy you that in the least.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 16:37:35 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Mili Subject: 'Clarity'? Message:

Shame on you, Mili. You're doing your Master no service at all. Do you really think he wants people to think he's clear about anything? For God's sake, he'd have to start being clear then, wouldn't he? He'd have to explain, clarify and qualify such details as his 'special' role in the process of 'Knowledge', and... - state explicity that he has no powers after all, lest people ask for a demonstration. - explain that, yes, meditation can make you feel rested and mellow, but also that his brother Balbagwan Ji's (aka. 'Guru Maharaji's') version of K is exactly the same as his own and there might not be any good reason for preferring his own variant over his sibling's. - state whether some special juju or essence is supposedly transferred from Master to student in the K session, or else confirm it just another bag of yoga tricks you could find anywhere. etc. etc.. You say you find 'clarity' in M's teachings, Mili. I say you find vacuous bullshit, but project the meanings you choose into the words you are hearing. And if you'd like a real litmus test of the depth of your cult-conditioning, you could always have a go at my 'Real M versus Fake M' experiment: see whether you can distinguish clarity from confusion... NB: Shroom tried this and came a cropper. I doubt you'd do any better, trying to distinguish your own Master's words from those of a charlatan. Like to have go?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:57:55 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Mili Subject: Maharaji will always have followers Message:

Maharaji will always have followers, provided he keeps a semblence of an organisation to communicate with. With some premies it's a lifelong habit that won't be broken. I don't think there's going to be any sudden downfall of Maharaji. Such dramatic things only happen in fairy stories. Maharaji will go on and some premies will continue to stay with him. Big Bill Clinton had his dark side and yet he still has millions of people all over the world who literally adore him. The so called negative publicity against Maharaji will make some premies sympathise with Maharaji and they will remain loyal to him, to the end. Actually, negative publicity rarely did anyone any harm and often did them good. I think Maharaji might realise that soon. He will survive and the more people try to damage him, the less effect it will have on him. I think ex-premies are deluded if they think they're going to actually stop Maharaji doing his thing. However, what we have done is put a brake on Maharaji and stopped him going out of control. That is the inevitable result of the internet. We have curtailed some of his obvious excesses and exploded the myth of his divinity. I think that had to happen and while premies may suffer (as I did) when they realise that Maharaji is just another Joe Blow, some of them will continue to follow Maharaji, out of habit, dependence and lifelong loyalty. However, the vast majority of premies have already left, of course and more are leaving by the day as the Emperor is seen to really be naked, after all. So Maharaji will have less of an income from the Western premies but he doesn't have any other job so he'll continue on, and on and on like Margaret Thatcher did. In time Maharaji will recover from having his real life exposed on the net. He is not a quitter. He will adjust and adapt, just like he has done before and the premies who are still loyal to him will applaud him for it. Maharaji shouldn't have underestimated the ex-premies but also we shouldn't underestimate him. I don't see him finishing or withering away on the vine. He will always have however, the critics and the ex-premies but I think he'll learn to live with that.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 16:44:47 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: They never give up! Message:

One only has to look at Swami Kriyananda to see how far a guru can fall and still retain his most loyal followers. The 'Swami' was sued in California a couple years ago by seven women who claimed in court that he had had coersive sexual relations with all of them and many more women all the while presenting himself to his followers as a celibate guru. He was found guilty of fraud and fined a million dollars. He retired and moved to Italy. But take a look at the Ananda community website. Look at that group of smiling devotees. Read their current praises of their Swami Kriyananda. In the late 80's when I was still a premie, I talked to a woman premie friend living in San Diego. She often did service at the residence. She told me the news being circulated that Maharaji wanted more children and Marilyn was unable to have any more. It was this premie's sincerest desire to give Maharaji a child and she was scheming about how she could become the chosen one. I was definitely taken aback by her attitude. She is now past the child-bearing age herself, but still dreams of a close connection to her 'teacher.' I don't think anything on this site would faze her in the least. Worldly values just don't apply. Krishnamurti remains the single example of a guru retirement, that I know of, and he never really did close up shop completely. No, they never really give up! Instead, when the going gets tough, many of them go into Armegeddon mode and go out in a pitiful blaze of simulated glory taking their closest disciples with them into the Beyond, ala Koresh. Either that or they just retire with their most addicted entourage to some secluded spot and die of a sexually transmitted disease, ala Bhagwan Shri Razneesh (sp?) (But, in the end, even AIDS did not completely conquer that Guru, his people continue to spread his teachings and meditation practices). Still, it would be great if the Internet age put a new twist in the mix. I would love to see relentless, truthful, and first-hand information about Mr. Rawat lead to his downfall. If support in the West dwindles to a point that the plane and the satellite feeds are no longer financially feasible, they would no doubt go the way of the ashrams, and then finally maybe the guru himself would go away!

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:22:35 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Way Subject: My Favorite Fraud... Message:

would be Frederic Lenz, aka Zen Master Rama. You might remember some of the full page ads he used to take out around 1980, featuring a cherubic face framed by a massive halo of curly hair. Things kind of fizzled out for him, but he turned his cult into this computer programmer thing, continuing to generate the massive cash flow these gurus seem to need. He killed himself a couple of years ago, took barbituates and drowned himself - along with his dogs, I think. And he still has lots of followers! Amazing! (BTW, I wonder if another Internet casualty-to-be might be Sai Baba. Few Net-savvy guru-curious folks could be unaware of his pedophilia and his cheesy magic tricks.)

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:24:54 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Gregg Subject: Zen Master Rama -- Information please Message:

Greg, I was very interested in your reference to Frederick Lenz. Reason is, I got talking to a colleague at work about my interest in cult busting. (We were having a chat about quantum entanglement and whether it would ever enable a form of faster-than-light communication to be developed, contrary to the thinking behind the Theory of Relativity. G had posted a bunch of links on the subject, so I mailed G's post to my colleague, and that got us talking of cults.) Anyway, the guy asked me about Frederick Lenz - he said, and I quote, 'He stole my friend's daughter.' Apparently the father tried to alert the authorities at the girl's college to Frederick Lenz's activities, but his efforts met with no success. Any links or information about this cult would be appreciated. In particular, please could you tell me of any efforts or campaigns against Frederick Lenz?

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 15:26:35 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Zen Master Rama -- Information please Message:

Rick Ross's website has some info on Frederick Lenz.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:33:51 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Way Subject: You want links? Message:

980 of them here: http://www.alltheweb.com/cgi-bin/search?exec=FAST+Search&type=phrase&query=Frederick+Lenz&exec=FAST+Search

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 07:56:03 (GMT) From: Mark Email: apple4256@datastreet.com To: Everyone Subject: Thanks to Shp and Dettmers Message:

There is an exchange below between Michael and Sanford that is in my opinion expresses all that is good about this Forum.It is a compelling and archtypal exchange between two human beings publically facing the responsibilities of facing the truth - in this strange public/detatched Cyberspace many ( visible and invisible )of us share in. I've watched Michael and Sanford over the past few weeks, in completely different ways,passionately and resolutely fight for their freedom. Each peeling different but unmistakeable residual levels of cult or belief system away.Each reclaiming his sovereignty.It's been a privilege to observe. Definitely goose -bump material.I'm sure for them as well.God bless you both your courage. Their 'sincere question from a premie' exchange is the last dying gasp of a loyal soldier( to both God and the alleged Earthly representative)faced with a conflict all in the cult have to face. Every ex or post premie has. The choice between Guru and God when both can no longer be held in the same idea/belief package (in fact,many discard both). Sanford earnestly asking - a preposterous, lottery-odds possibility - that despite EVERYTHING pointing to this being the end of him being able hold onto Maharaji as THE MESSENGER , could Mike maybe cut him some slack and allow Sanford to keep the faith that maybe Maharaji is some sort of Amadeus Noah. Mike compassionately tells him NO SLACK AVAILABLE.(in so many words)'Sanford,you're on acid,but don't worry you'll come down,and please vacate the building you've been occupying- you're in danger.' To me its like God coming to rescue Sanford from his captor/savior Guru. Thanks,God (athiests ,please ignore ) Sanford's been calling to you here for a year now.And thanks for letting us watch . It serves each of us. Sanford ,we all go thru the 'What If ?' thing. I remember my friend Art telling me,' Mark you're probably right. But what if not, and he's the Lord ? You've blown it.You're fucked.' It was cool,a real moment of truth between us. As soon as he said it,he could see it was fear based, and we both started laughing maniacally,and his 22 year spell was broken. EVERYONE asks the What if ? question. Its like one of the 'contractions' of the post premie birth. Mike Dettmers, when he first posted here, went out of his way to serve both the spirit of Jim's insistent probes,and the spirit of his compensation agreement with DLM and business ethics. Many, myself included, asked for Mike the Human Being rather than Mike the Polite-tican to express his feelings. We have been rewarded in spades.And I KNOW he has been rewarded for 'balancing his own books'. While accused of Stockholm Syndrome by an erudite Danny ( stockbroker ?), actually I'd say it was closer to 'Truth the Whole truth,and Nothing But the Truth' Syndrome.(Frampton Live!) And the truth continues to set us free. Even in this election season. Sanford,while a 'default' loyalist,has been open enough to allow his battleship of Maharaji faith to take hits, return fire,and yet here finally admit that he may replace the Maharaji flag with the Sanford Pass flag. By allowing his crisis of faith to happen publically here,and by having palpable and visceral modifications to his belief system in light of the Jagdeo and Dettmers 'smoking gun' stuff, Sanford has been a very welcome contributor to the Forum. Again, my thanks to you both. Mark Appleman ps. Thanks also to Patrick Wilson,Divine musician,artist formerly known as Anon, born again 44 yr old ,for 'coming out'. Another layer gone . cheers. pps. regards to brother Peter, Mike

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:06:28 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Mark Subject: Thanks to Shp and Dettmers Message:

Heh, heh, heh! I know what you mean! It's a great horse-race to watch when a premie (or any believer) actually becomes undefensive and you can watch changes happen. Whoppee!

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:29:59 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Is shp jumping ship? Message:

Shp's view of Mr. Rawat does seem to be 'evolving.' I remember one premie once referred to Mr. Rawat as the Wizard of Oz, totally forgetting all the implications of that reference. Now we have Maharaji as a drunken but sincere Noah. Surely this is a premie in the final death throes. But what will happen to shp if he really does abandon Guru Maharaj Ji's boat? Will he make the same kind of amazing transformation that Rob showed us. As an ex, Rob became a wise person capable of profound insight and able to articulate it. And he was able to make all the proper amends for his earlier transgressions against both truth and etiquette. But shp is not only a victim of Divine Light Mission's particular fantasy, but his world-view is decidedly rose-colored in general. His Noah-as-literal-truth comment is only one of many comments that have revealed a Candide-like optimism that I'm afraid will survive the plunge. I remember one comment in particular from shp - something about how it would be ok to treat Rawat as God if all human beings treated each other the same way! I think shp is looking for heaven within duality, an obviously impossible task but one that many people undertake. Will he manage to survive a full disillusionment with such a notion and still retain a healthy love of life? Will he be able to find happiness based on simple reality in acceptance of his own imperfection? What are the choices when you kick your guru to the curb? You can adopt a new set of illusions, (there are plenty to pick from). Or you can join the Richard Dawkins crowd. Or you can even set up your own shop, as a former Da Love Ananda devotee recently did. Or you can become bitter and confused. Or you can allow your heart a large space within yourself independently, expressing it into this world once in awhile. So what will it be?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 09:22:00 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Way Subject: The shp leaves the sinking rat, perhaps... -nt- Message:

good!

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:33:25 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Way Subject: Dawkins, of course! (Nyuh ah AH!!) (nt) Message:

bbbbbb

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:38:23 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Jim Subject: If shp becomes an evolutionist, I'll eat my hat!nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:47:47 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Way Subject: I agree. shp becomes reasonable,? I will too (nt) Message:

hhhhhh

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:49:39 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Jim Subject: It's a deal! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 08:51:49 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mark Subject: Great post Mark. nt Message:

no text except this

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 08:13:26 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Mark Subject: Cor blimey.You should write for the newspapers(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 08:41:40 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jethro Subject: A bit soapy........nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 09:33:48 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Salam Subject: And what's wrong with a bit of peace, love and Message:

understanding Salam, as long as our brains aren't put into cold storage as well, good on ya Mark I say

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 12:57:22 (GMT) From: Oliver Email: None To: ham Subject: Absolutely nothing. (nt:) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:51:34 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Dear premies, welcome to my nightmare Message:

The first report about the Hamster's dead dad's birthdy bash just came in over on ELK: 'The rosary of the breath New Delhi, 6 November 2000 'Within, you can feel the endless moment - out of nowhere into somewhere and then out again into nowhere - one breath at a time.' A newly erected plaque on one of the ashram's roads carries this quote from Maharaji. And on the first day of Hans Jayanti 2000 it encapsulated the message he delivered to the huge crowd which carpeted the arena in the centre of the ashram On a day when the life and times of his father and master, Sri Hans Ji Maharaj, were remembered, Sampuranand addressed the crowd, before Maharaji came on stage, saying that: 'A seed was sown so many years ago. And just as any seed does, it takes its own time to grow into a tree. But now the branches of that tree have spread far and wide and reached 85 countries.' Looking to the past Sampuranand remarked how the rishis, the ancient sages, had said that Knowledge was essential for human beings, but to receive it you needed a living master. It was his great fortune, he said, to have known two masters, Sri Maharaj Ji and Maharaji. Before meeting Sri Maharaj Ji he recalled reading a saying of Guru Nanak's: 'If you place the medication of Knowledge in your eyes, the darkness will clear.' Keen to pursue this enlightenment he said he went to temples in his quest, but it was not until he met Sri Maharaj Ji that 'the bell rang, and I understood that I needed to receive this Knowledge from a living master.' 'It was as if he lifted me up like a little child and showed me how to turn within.' Sri Maharaj Ji planted the seed back in the 1930s, and now on the celebration of the 100th anniversary of his birth, the same essential wisdom, spoken by Maharaji, will be broadcast around the world within days of the event. Europe will see today's address on Saturday, 11 November. (Please check local dates and times in your country.) This afternoon translators were beaming a signal across the ashram arena in 19 languages, including Cantonese for the first time, to the international audience. By 5 pm when Maharaji came on stage, the baking hot Delhi day was giving way to a coolish afternoon. He sat while the two live bands sung bhajans and then he began by expressing what a great fortune it is to have a human life. In fact he said it was double-good fortune because as well as life, we have 'each and every breath which is so priceless. 'Not one of us can purchase even a single breath.' That's actually far from true. Maharaji's absurdly infantile and superstitous cargo cult has fetishized breath so bizarrely it's hard to take seriously even in religious terms (i.e. cutting one hell of a lot of slack just for the hell of it). In any event, the fact is that many, many people have 'purchased' breath through the most expensive agency of artificial breathing apparatuses ('apparati'?) like iron lungs. He returned to the graphic analogy he had used on both his recent European and Asian tours: the journey across a tight-rope with the balancing pole as the equilibrium of Knowledge. 'You need that pole,' he said, 'because each and every step has to be taken with understanding and care and not haphazardly. Each step has to be taken in such a way that you don't fall.' Gravity, he explained, is a constant force wanting to pull us down. He then quoted the poet Dharamdas who likened life to a journey across a deep river. Maharaji posed the question of how many people had drowned in this river of unconsciousness. The key to crossing this river was in the remembrance of what we forget so easily the outgoing and incoming of each breath. And isn't this the very kind of mind-fucking that sent so many premies over the deep end, into misery, mental illness or even suicide? And those were the extreme cases. What about all the rest of us that simply adopted this craziness and walked around trying to excise our minds like obsessive complusives? Yeah, this is criminal alright. He joked about how we concentrate on remembering birthdays and other special occasions, but that no one ever focuses on making an appointment with their breath on their calendars. It was the same with phone numbers: when all we really need to remember is the phone number of the heart. Again, this is SOOOOOOO stupid! I don't 'make appointments' with any of bodily functions, thank you very much. And that dumb line about the 'phone number of the heart'....?!! PLEASE! 'When you look at that vision that your heart wants to see, you will experience peace in your heart. And when you take out the rosary of the breath you will experience that peace.' He talked about people's search for miracles and their belief in reincarnation, but maintained that what was important was to focus on the true miracle - the breath within us giving us life - and to concentrate on making the best of each day of our lives but seizing the essence of each day by being conscious. Maharaji would have every premie be a complete, utter dunce. Like Mili, I guess you could say. 'Does it feel good?' they can ask themselves of the little white noise trick of listening to their breath. If the answer's yes, that's it. That's life, everything, in a nutshell. If the answer's no, that's the mind fighting to drag you off the rtightrope into the rushing river of unconsciousness. Why it's enough to drive a guy to drink, isn't it, Maharaji? Forty five minutes later he wound up by telling us to let 'your heart be king' during these days of celebration, because 'in the kingdom of the heart joy really is the king.' A compelling slide show of Sri Maharaj Ji, called 'Shelter', brought the evening to a serene and moving close. What's with all this funny way of talking? Sounds like an ad for a funeral parlour.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:27:50 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Halloween Time Is The Right Time For This Shit Message:

To think I used to feel inferior because I couln't write good 'premish'. Steve

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 01:24:31 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: Jim Subject: Rapter letter Message:

Jim, Where can I read your letter to Joan Rapter? Is it available on this site? Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 01:21:12 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: be Subject: Dear premies, welcome to my nightmare Message:

Or, as AskJesus would say, There's no Jesus like show Jesus! Back To INDEX

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 01:11:24 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: omigod, Jim you are on a roll Message:

and that was funny! 'You need that pole,' he said, 'because each and every step has to be taken with understanding and care and not haphazardly. Each step has to be taken in such a way that you don't fall.' Gravity, he explained, is a constant force wanting to pull us down. I'd say our boy's gone a little paranoid. the phone number of the heart. Now that would make a good fifties style tune. ...sha la la de da

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 19:12:47 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: gerry Subject: 'phone number of the heart' ... Message:

Kept, no doubt 'In the Canyons of your Mind' (remember that Bonzo Dog track by the late, great Viv Stanshall - featuring the world's worst guitar solo?) Wish I could find the music on the net. In the meantime, here's the lyrics: Canyons Of Your Mind (Vivian Stanshall) In the canyons of your mind I will wander through your brain To the ventricles of your heart, my dear: I am pumping you again. 'Cross the mountains of your chest I will stick a Union Jack. To the forest of your cheek, Through the holes in your string vest. My darling, in my cardboard-coloured dreams, cardboard-coloured dreams Once again I hear your laugh. And I kiss, yes I kiss, your perfumed hair: but she's not there The sweet essence of giraffe. of giraffe And each time I hear your name frying pan, frying pan Oh, oh, oh my my, how it hurts he's in pain In the wardrobe of my soul, of my soul In the section labelled 'shirts'. I mean it

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:39:48 (GMT) From: Eiregirl Email: None To: gerry Subject: Hey geRrY.. Message:

Read your fecking email.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:02:07 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: gerry Subject: Let's just talk a bit about breath without the Message:

trappings of Knowledge, Maharaji or his satsang. I have asthmatic bronchitis. It hits me really hard every year in the fall ever since I moved back up north after eight years in tropical south Florida in 1985. It comes back worse every year. I really ought to move to a tropical climate for my health, maybe someday I will. It only hits me in the fall, as if I am allergic to something in all the organic decomposition or spores or something that comes out this time of year. The rest of the seasons I'm fine. As someone who goes through seasonal shortness of breath, needs threee different types of inhalers daily this time of year, and has been caught short of breath without them and felt like I was going to die, I can totally relate to and appreciate what he is talking about from DIRECT experience. And that thing Jim said about being able to 'purchase' breath, who does he think he's kidding? It's the most precious thing we all have, can be prolonged but not purchased, and anyone who argues the point is way past being a fool. Hey Jimbo, if your number's up, the electricity will go out and then your inheritors can use the iron lung as a giant bhang or lawn art! You poor shwag.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:25:41 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: shp Subject: shp, I love you, man! Message:

shp, I love you. I see how personal everything we say here is to you. This time with mention of breathing you reveal your own medical problems and for that I am sorry. And when some of the women here talked about being raped you were right there with them sharing your pain when you were raped at your job. shp, this is all what makes you so damn special.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 13:08:59 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: shp Subject: Me too shp, I love you too, man! Message:

You're funny; sassy; and you stand up to the dreaded Jim! Toe-to-toe, round after round. It's just a pity you've been deluded, so he tends to 'win'. Not fair! But hey! Don't worry, be happy. Remember you can still do ALL those things even after you dump the rotten Fatrat. (I'm kinda looking forward to it, to tell the truth. )

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:40:53 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: What would the Hamster say about sleep apnea? Message:

I just erased a very disrespectful post to you, shp. Why? Because I have to admit I've said it all before to you. What's the point? You can only think as well as you can. I feel like I'm abusing a person with amental disability when I talk to you sometimes. Now, on the eve of President Bush's inauguration, I'm geting ready for a second, kindler, gentler time for all of us. What about sleep apnea, shp? If the breath is conscious, like your most learned cult leader says, what's going on then? Any ideas? Or maybe we've got ourselves yet another divine mystery, huh?

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 00:41:28 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: What would the Hamster say about sleep apnea? Message:

Jim: Now, on the eve of President Bush's inauguration, I'm geting ready for a second, kindler, gentler time for all of us. The President, whoever he is, won't be inaugurated until the latter part of January. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 03:36:49 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Oh yeah? Message:

Scott, You think you know so much about U.S. politics. Well I have it on good information that this year they're going to do the inauguration like right fucking now. Like tonight. Like way past your bedtime, I know, but just take a look in the morning (that is if you don't get an attack of Divine Sleep Apnea). I'm telling you, this time's gonna be different. It's the new millenium, Scott.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 07:39:46 (GMT) From: Mili Email: None To: Jim Subject: What would the Hamster say about sleep apnea? Message:

Jim, Maharaji is not saying that the breath is conscious. He's saying you should be conscious of the breath in order to understand it's importance. No breath, no consciousness. Get it? Either you are distorting his words on purpose, or you just don't understand what he's been saying. I don't see a third option.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 15:00:12 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Mili Subject: Breath consciousness Message:

You don't need to focus on the breath to know you're conscious. Breath is just ONE thing we can be conscious of. We can be conscious of sound, of sight, of feeling, of beauty, of thought, there's so much that streams through our consciousness all in the course of a minute. Why this stringent observation of the breath, as if that's going to make us MORE conscious? It's not. It's just a FOCUS of consciousness, whereas consciousness can be just as focused on something else. If you really want to be more conscious, then be conscious of consciousness, itself. Yeah, that'll do the trick. This consciousness of breath is just beating around the bush compared to that. No, the only reason I can see for focusing on the breath is that, for some, it's a peaceful experience. That doesn't make Maharaji some kind of avatar or saviour. You're appraisal of him is way out of whack. You've idolized him.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:00:27 (GMT) From: Mili Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Breath consciousness Message:

This is absolutely amazing. You are conscious, you feel, see, hear, smell every moment of your life. And yet here you are theorizing and speculating about it! Don't you think you should know exactly what it is? I am not even saying you should peruse Maharaji and the Knowledge to find out. Use whatever means possible to understand it. It's not something foreign to you, you know. It's you!

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:14:17 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Mili Subject: Breath consciousness Message:

So let's summarise: You know exactly what your consciousness is, while Jerry doesn't - in spite of his spending decades following the same 'Master' and practicing exactly the same techniques as you? Sounds like either the words of an omniscient being (in that he knows what someone else does or doesn't know) or yet another patronising, deluded cult member who mistakes the whirr-and-hum of his own machinery plus the associated emotional buzz for knowledge of the divine. Either way, why should anyone believe you?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:18:58 (GMT) From: Mili Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Breath consciousness Message:

Don't you know what your consciousness is?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:59:22 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Mili Subject: What consciousness is? Try this: Message:

Like it or not, consciousness is very much a product of our biochemistry - which ultimately comprises just matter, pure and simple, and is subject to physical laws. But you shouldn't regard consciousness as an intrinsic property of matter, as you, Mili, once did on this forum - talking about semi-conscious rocks, and so forth. Rather it is an 'emergent property' of complex biological systems, and of these alone. Even though nobody has yet persuasively explained how the phenomenon occurs, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. If materialsts are wrong, there are simply too many phenomena for which a non-material views have no explanation - especially when you consider that consciousness behaves more like a variable than a fixed attribute, varying between species, within species, and fluctuating as a result of biological influences operating in different time-frames. There seem to be four essential ingredients that determine whether or not consciousness will be present in an organism at any given moment. (1) The right evolution All the evidence suggests that creatures only show signs of consciousness once they have acquired a highly-developed nervous system. For the kind of consciousness a human possesses, a large cerebral cortex appears crucial. Unlike in the case of many evolutionary debates, there is no shortage of evidence for the consciousness/neural complexity correlation, since many (most, in fact) living creatures haven't budged an inch in their structural complexity for hundreds of thousands of years. Those whose nervous systems have acquired greater complexity exhibit correspondingly greater conscious awareness of themselves and their surroundings. (2) Adequate structural development No-one knows for sure at what point a baby becomes fully conscious, but an adult chimp probably has more in the way of consciousness than a new-born human. The acquisition of consciousness - and with it memory, language, and a concept of 'self' - happens in tandem with rapid development of the internal structuring of the brain. (3) The right brain processes Consciousness is cyclic; whether we like it or not, we can't stay awake all the time. In order to simply achieve and maintain a waking state, the brain must guzzle up vast quantities of proteins, representing a large proportion of the body's energy reserves. Physical brain damage can prevent consciousness happening, often leaving a person permanently in a coma. (4) The right chemistry I used to work in a drugs agency where clients staggering through the front door (depending on their taste in illicit substances) will demonstrate anything from speed-crazed hypermania to semi-comatose, smack-head zombiedom, and all through the ingestion or injection of comparatively small quanities of psychoactive agent. How, if consciousness were independent of our biology could a doctor's anaesthetic knock us out in five seconds flat - or at all? Consciousness doesn't just exist, it has to be created by all of these biological and chemical phenomena. The potential for consciousness is created first by our evolution. It must then be realised in the developing brain, then re-created every time we wake (or sober!) up. A few electro-chemical changes here and there have large effects of the quality and quantity of consciousness we experience. If we reject a biological basis for consciousness, we end up instead with those 'ghost in the machine' type arguments, where an independent conscious self somehow inhabits the body without being dependent upon it. These four arguments support the view that consciousness is very much dependent on our biology. At least, for these reasons I can't accept any mystical theories of consciousness, or of the soul. And Perfect Masters bearing gifts of Knowledge has nothing to do with consciousness. It is just so much bunk, no one in the twenty-first century should give it a moment's serious thought.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 09:29:54 (GMT) From: Mili Email: None To: Nigel Subject: What consciousness is? Try this: Message:

Nice conversation you were having with yourself there, Nigel. You know what your problem is? You are having these imaginary conversations with your 'opponents', including me. You make up their arguments and viewpoints by yourself, and then you try to counter them. You are talking to yourself most of the time, basically. I was never a serious fan of 'mystical' explanations of consciousness, though I do think they are worth considering. All these people who wrote the Upanishads, the Sutras, the Tao Teh Ching and other stuff were trying to tell us something and they were not dumb. It's pretty arrogant to just shrug it all off. On the other hand, what need is there to explain everything away? It's there. Do you think you can improve on it? Better to observe more, and gain some more empirical understanding of the stuff. If matter is all that there is, then of course consciousness is an inherent property of matter. Even atoms of hydrogen 'sense' each other gravitationally. But matter is not all that there is. There're also these things called 'energy', 'information', 'space' and 'time'. All of the physical laws put together cannot explain the Second Law of Thermodynamics. According to classical physics the direction of time should be able to go both ways. Obviously it doesn't. So, it's just been stated as a Law on the basis of empirical evidence. Anyway, I understand how futile it is to try to 'prove' anything to you. So I am not even going to try. Sorry, I have better use of my time. I am more inclined to go with Jerry's definition of consciousness though (although I don't quite understand this thing for piss he has - it's not the greatest pleasure to be had from life, in my experience). That's a fallacy at the end of your 'argument', by the way. A Fallacy of Analogy, I believe it's called. Look it up.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:10:05 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mili Subject: How can you talk with someone like Mili? Message:

It's impossible, really. Look at this one sample of how he thinks: I was never a serious fan of 'mystical' explanations of consciousness, though I do think they are worth considering. All these people who wrote the Upanishads, the Sutras, the Tao Teh Ching and other stuff were trying to tell us something and they were not dumb. It's pretty arrogant to just shrug it all off. On the other hand, what need is there to explain everything away? It's there. Do you think you can improve on it? Better to observe more, and gain some more empirical understanding of the stuff. Here's a guy who really doesn't give a shit about being the least bit consistent about anything. He contradicts himself phrase by phrase. Really, ask yourself if the person who said the above is or is not willing to examine and discuss the subject matter. It's impossible to tell. I guess the word is 'skittish'. Consequently, if you accuse him of avoiding the subject, he'll point to something he's said suggesting otherwise, something like '... though I do think they are worth considering.' Try to actually hash it out with him, though, and you'll get '... what need is there to explain everything away?' And he'll play this game forever. The real problem, of course, is that Mili doesn't have the integrity to care about his intellectual integrity. There's something very perverse and cynical about his 'spirituality'. It's so ingrown, he's truly unreachable. By the way, while I'm sure it's true that the authors of ancient religious texts weren't 'dumb', it is also very much the case that they were greatly ignorant in so many, many respects compared to people today. Of course they were! Start with the world being round and go from there. Also, it is hardly the case that they were trying to tell us anything. Mili's a sucker for this horay old, romantic slop. Too bad you'll never be able to talk with him about it.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 18:52:54 (GMT) From: Mili Email: None To: Jim Subject: I confess, Jim. Message:

When you talk about 'intellectual integrity' I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. To me it just reeks of inflexibility, bias and an inability to change your mind.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:04:46 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mili Subject: Intellectual Integrity Message:

Of course you don't know. You're new age which, in my books, means never having to look at anything squarely if you don't want. It's all make-believe. You know how in dreams anything's possible? Then when you wake up you're stuck with the 'inflexibility' of the real world? It's like that. You bring no honour to a discussion, Mili. You don't have any principles. Or if you do, you've never shown them in THIS venue. And that, as far as I can see, is a direct result of your new age mentality.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 08:12:59 (GMT) From: Mili Email: None To: Jim Subject: So what's real then? Message:

Foget about different theories and interpretations of the world, Jim. When you are asleep, and dreaming, are you still not breathing, just like you are when awake? Are you not still alive? That's the one thing that is constant - it sure qualifies as being 'real' to me. How 'bout facing THAT squarely for a change, big boy?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:45:22 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Mili Subject: Breath consciousness Message:

Don't you know what your consciousness is? Don't you? I wonder. Let's get on the same page, Mili. What do you call consciousness and how does Maharaji play a role in it? To me, my consciousness is my ability to think, to feel, to see, to hear, and so forth, and to know that I can do all those things. Maharji has nothing to do with any of that.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 07:48:54 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mili Subject: You're talking in circles, Mili Message:

What IS the breath's 'importance' if not the fact that it is divine and conscious? Come on, Mili, admit it. Maharaji's been singing this song since the beginning. Or do we need to play the quotes game?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:25:19 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: I suppose you want to debate the fact that Message:

Maharaji once said that the Creator paints the sunset and sunrise. You want to see the brush??? If I say I sunk a grand in my car, do you think I put a thousand dollars in a briefcase and drove in off a bridge into a river? Mark's above post aside, you are really hurting your own cause by being such an asshole, subtle one minute and dense the next.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:01:04 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: It's Election Day - I Nominate shp For Satguru nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 20:38:37 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Steven Quint Subject: If that is how you really feel, then post less and Message:

say more. Enough with the fluff.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 12:05:54 (GMT) From: Mili Email: None To: Jim Subject: Are you really so stupid? Message:

The breath is the most conspicuous vital sign that there is, Jim. It's literally under your nose all the time. If you can't see it fit to attach some importance to it, and by doing so, to your own life, then you're lost man. Totally, totally out to lunch. For you, life is a theory then, an idea. An alien thing that is inhabiting your body. I'd hate to be you. Really I would.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 12:37:50 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Mili Subject: What about your kidneys or your heart or your live Message:

r or thousands of other functions without which you'd be fucked & dead? And what about jim's apnia question, which is a very reasonable question?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 16:17:54 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Fuck the breath, I worship my gut... Message:

Scientists discover 'second brain' in the stomach Scientists are claiming to have discovered a second brain - in the human stomach. The breakthrough, involving experts in the US and Germany, is believed to play a major part in the way people behave. This 'second brain' is made up of a knot of brain nerves in the digestive tract. It is thought to involve around 100 billion nerve cells - more than held in the spinal cord. Researchers believe this belly brain may save information on physical reactions to mental processes and give out signals to influence later decisions. It may also be responsible in the creation of reactions such as joy or sadness. The research is outlined in the latest issue of German science magazine, Geo, in which Professor Wolfgang Prinz, of the Max Planck Institute for Psychological Research in Munich, says the discovery could give a new twist on the old phrase 'gut reaction'. He said: 'People often follow their gut reactions without even knowing why, its only later that they come up with the logical reason for acting the way they did. But we now believe that there is a lot more to gut feelings than was previously believed.' Professor Prinz thinks the stomach network may be the source for unconscious decisions which the main brain later claims as conscious decisions of its own. The second brain was rediscovered by Michael Gershorn, of the University of Colombia in New York, after it was forgotten by science. He says it was first documented by a 19th century German neurologist, Leopold Auerbach. He discovered two layers of nerve cells near a piece of intestine he was dissecting. After putting them under the microscope he found they were part of a complex network. Recent research has already raised the idea that many reactions may be made in the stomach. Benjamin Libet, of the University of California found the brains of volunteers asked to raise their arms only registered activity about half a second after the movement had been made. He believes his work implies another part of the body may have been involved in making the decision.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 09:17:58 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: gerry Subject: Gerr, is this a wind-up? Message:

Any site add's of relevance to the argument? If so this looks fascinating. Maybe we should start a religion about reaching enlightenment through eating, shit already done that with raw food diet, ahh well. Ireland man, Ireland, it would be great to visit ya, your sense of humour is wild, Denmark I think you would find TOO straight.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 14:59:38 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: ham Subject: Not a wind-up but you decide... Message:

Here's the link to the story. Yeah, Ireland. Eiren go braugh (less) Isn't england somewhere near there?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:14:46 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: gerry Subject: Fuck the breath, I worship my gut... Message:

Thanks for this, gerry. Do you know any good links on this topic? Steve

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 16:46:39 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: gerry Subject: Boo-ya! Message:

I'm with you, Gerry. I really think there's something to this gut reaction stuff. Ya gotta go wid wat's in da gut, mannn!

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 12:58:46 (GMT) From: Mili Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Ham, do you really need me to do your thinking Message:

for you? You figure it out - you can be unconscious, and still be breathing, but it doesn't work the other way around. You can't be dead and conscious, too. Right? You need to be alive, to be breathing, in order to be conscious. ...and it's a lot easier to be aware of your life moment by moment by appreciating the breath than it is by sticking your finger in your kidney, believe me it is. Knowledge is all about life. Familiarize yourself with your own life! Get you information firsthand. It's the greatest thing that there is.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 08:48:04 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Mili Subject: And there was I thinking premies had no humour Message:

in them, in fact had all suffered irony by-passes. You're gonna teach me how to think!! And that post was it!!!??? Best joke I've heard all week Mili, and I've heard a few good ones. The response to Nigels comment on your post, was that teaching him to think too, purlease? (1) Substitute primary biological function into breathing in your quote, why any difference? (2) Jim's sleep apnia question, deserves a response, it's a good question. (3) Forget Dettmers' post as an attempt to prove he's a fraud angle, which we know you're incapable of doing, doesn't it even surprize a little, that the experience for him is such a failure? Since we know there will be silence from you now, and to save me doing another post, mili, where's mili when you need him?

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 12:32:13 (GMT) From: Mili Email: None To: hamzen Subject: You can e-mail me anytime, Ham Message:

Somehow, I don't think you will.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 06:38:30 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Mili Subject: Don't be so certain, but without an e-mail Message:

address of course I won't, so ??

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:17:36 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Mili Subject: Ham, do you really need me to do your thinking Message:

There should be criminal laws against writing like that. Steve

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 15:54:02 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitrzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Mili Subject: Who will you get to do your thinking, Mili... Message:

...the day you get around to doing some? Breathing is necessary for life; life is necessary for consciousness, but consciousness of your breathing is no more about appreciation of life than anything else you are conscious of is appreciation of life. Substitute the word 'heartbeat', 'digestion' or 'urination' for 'breathing' in the above passage and follow the logic through - then make a special case for breathing if you can.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:16:41 (GMT) From: Mili Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Ok, Nigel. You win Message:

You meditate on your urine from now on, and I'll just stick with the breath.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 19:05:30 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Mili Subject: Ok, Nigel. You win Message:

If that's all you can manage, I suggest you go elsewhere and do it: breathe, enjoy, pranam, have fun. You've nothing to add to the discussions here, that's for sure.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:51:49 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Mili Subject: Ok, Nigel. You win Message:

Hey, a good whiz when you really gotta go beats meditating any day.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 15:08:48 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Mili Subject: Ham, do you really need me to do your thinking Message:

Knowledge is all about life. Life carries on with or without Knowledge, dude. You were living, feeling, thinking, breathing, laughing, crying, long before Maharaji came into your life. You're a fool for thinking he has some special significance in all that.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:53:09 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: What would the Hamster say about sleep apnea? Message:

Sleep apnea is a sleeping disorder. If you want to have a small mammal's opinion, I suggest you catch one, learn its language and then pose the question. While you are at it, ask your pet what about hurricanes..they kill people. Couldn't God have made a less harmful way to clean the atmosphere? You probably think I don't get it that you call Maharaji the Hamster. I get it. I just think its stupid. As for my respiratory infirmity, if it taught me soemthing that I would not have otherwise learned about how precious life is, it is a blessing in disguise. I will make a wager with you on the election here and now. Five bucks says Gore will beat Bush. Or do you feel like you'd be taking advantage of a mental invalid to conceal your cowardice at putting your money where your mouth is?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:02:10 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: shp Subject: shp, gotta agree with Jim on that one Message:

shp, Bush wipes the floor with Gore..five bucks. Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:07:51 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: shp, gotta agree with Jim on that one Message:

You are on. I need your e-mail to tell you where to send the $5.00. Mine is mcpass1@earthlink.net

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:34:14 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: shp Subject: five bucks Message:

shp, use my snail mail.. P.O.box 1678 Lawrenceville, GA 30046 Make it a nice crisp bill, please.. Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:39:58 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: five bucks....Green bucks. Message:

Like I said down below, just deposit my five bucks at your local Green Party office. If there isn't one, then please check on the internet and send it to the Green Party HQ. Thanks!

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 02:49:57 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, gotta agree with shp on this one.. Message:

Jim, I got to agree with shp on this..Breath is the battery, once gone kaput.. Now where's that rapter letter?? Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:15:53 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: Don't either of you cult members get my point? Message:

The whole point, fellas, is that the body makes the breath happen, not the other way around. And yes, that's exactly what your superstitious cargo cult teaches. Maharaji treats the breath like it's got a mind of its own. That's truly beyond the pale. Yet, sadly, it's the essence of his teaching. The point about sleep apnea is that if you buy Maharaji's notion (it hardly deserves being called a 'philosophy'), people with sleep apnea who die when their breath stops during sleep are dying because God's deciding to stop breathing them. That is absolutely stupid. Yet, again, you MUST belive that if you follow Maharaji's thinking. You must. There's no alternative. Now then, wouldn't that make God one very unhappy camper? Thnik of all the people with sleep apnea who've been 'destined' to die according to Maharaji's and perhaps your own thinking. Modern medicine traps the breath, as it were, and they live on to enjoy perfectly normal life spans. All along the breath is trying to leave them but modern medicine outsmarts it. Stupid? You're fucking right it is. **************************************************************** And here's my letter to Joan: Dear Joan, I'm the ex-premie who called you this past summer to discuss Maharaji. Do you remember? You were busy getting ready for a dinner party but were able to graciously give me about ten minutes of your time nonetheless. As I I explained, I called you because I thought your high profile in the cult, indeed your status as a 'Super Premie' if you will, made your opinion about Maharaji inherently interesting to someone like me who'd never been more than a rank and file ashram premie. You seemed somewhat bemused by my call. It was as if there was nothing to discuss, you certainly had no regrets or issues to resolve. As for my 'ex-ness', your advice (unsolicited) was to leave the past behind and simply get on with my life. If I wanted to follow Maharaji, fine. If not, that was cool too. But to try to understand, discuss or analyze the whole phenomenon, forget it, you weren't interested. Instead, you urged me to avoid 'victim consciousness', something that's apparently never plagued you. After all, like I said, you had no regrets. I have to say that you were more than civil on the phone. Really, it's not as if you even know me and you WERE busy, I'm sure. In that respect, I have no complaints. What does bother me, though, is that you personally seem to have engaged in some of the very revisionism I was objecting to when we spoke. I have in mind your recent entry in 'Perspectives' section of Elan Vital's website: 'When I talk about Maharaji and the gift of Knowledge that he gave me, I always use the analogy of my treasured pearl necklace, each pearl being a person who has brought huge value to my life. These are the teachers, mentors and inspirations who have helped me identify important areas of my life that were still unexplored. When I meet these people, something clicks. Maharaji is a rare Tahitian pearl on that necklace of great gifts in my life. I met Maharaji at the end of 1969. I was a hippie wanderer, traveling overland to India. I had a keen awareness of 'something missing', but would not have been able to tell you what was missing. I was not searching for a spiritual master or a technique of meditation. It was not until I met Maharaji and heard him speak that I began to feel pieces of the puzzle fall into place. It all started when I heard him address his huge audience as 'dear seekers of truth.' Maharaji spoke to the importance of having a practical connection to a part of myself that is connected to…… whatever I call that life-force that is keeping me alive. His message shocked me because it was so different. This was not an intellectual pursuit. This was not a lifestyle. This was not an external practice, like rosaries or mantras. This was an offer to learn the 'how to' of practicing an inner focus on a daily basis. The other thing that fit me perfectly about Maharaji's message was that he was not just offering a 'how to' and then leaving me on my own. I definitely needed support to be able to shift from a purely external focus to a more balanced menu, which included internal nourishment. Maharaji helped me see things differently, and opened up new possibilities in my life. I loved spending time with him, my heart bursting with the joy of what I was discovering! I wouldn't call myself a disciplined person. I am an emotional person; more comfortable following my heart than making an action plan to make my dreams come true. This is another reason a competent teacher is such a treasure in my life. He reminds me where the rubber meets the road. If I really want a life where I feel a connection to something that I can always count on, then it is up to me to organize my life accordingly. I call the time I practice Knowledge my 'quiet time.' It's the necessary break-time in my life that is increasingly filled with places to go, people to see, and things to do. I feel sincerely fortunate that Maharaji has offered me a method to find that quiet place, one that works for me. I wouldn't say it's easy to practice Knowledge. It's daunting to be aware of the motor mouth of the mind. But it is simple. Even I can do it. The rewards? Maybe just that little inch of separation between my worries and me, which makes a huge difference in my life!' Joan, with all due respect, this account of how you got involved with Maharaji and who he is to you flies in the face of your earlier such account in the book 'Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?' In fact, Joan, this seems to be the very kind of revisionism I was complaining about. For example, whereas you earlier wrote: This is a testimony. But really, without exaggerating, it is a scripture, for I have been graced and the Living Lord has found me, and so my experiences with Guru Maharaj Ji are the eternal experiences written by every soul in the past and will be written by every soul in the future who meets the embodiment of truth, pure consciousness, and bliss, receives his Knowledge, and lives under his universal shelter. today, Maharaji, you suggest, is just one of a series of 'teachers, mentors and inspirations who have helped me identify important areas of my life that were still unexplored.' See the difference? See my problem? Even more troubling, in my opinion, is the discrepancy between your accounts of what you were doing in India at the time, how you came to Maharaji in the first place and how he initially impressed you. On EV's site, you say that you weren't 'looking for a spiritual teacher or meditation technique'. However, in the book, you explain, in great detail, how completely obsessed you were, then, with spirituality: I had been walking from ashram to ashram, weeping quite a lot, reading scriptures and mourning. Indeed, you detail the excruciating, perhaps even life-threatening spiritual malaise you were suffering and your desparation to find some relief. Your story is nothing if not the story of a young woman preoccupied with spirituality and relentlessly searching for spiritual guidance. It sounds like you haven't looked at what you wrote for the book in quite a while. Perhaps it's worth another look when you get a chance. After all, they're your words, not mine. The disparity that struck me the most, however, in the two stories is how you deal with coming upon Maharaji and how he first impressed you. What you wrote for EV: It was not until I met Maharaji and heard him speak that I began to feel pieces of the puzzle fall into place. It all started when I heard him address his huge audience as 'dear seekers of truth.' is entirely at odds with what's in the book. There, a series of different 'spiritual seekers' including one of Maharaji's own mahatmas, tell you about Maharaji over a course of many months. Your interest is piqued a little further with each encounter. Then, after suffering what sounds like a severe emotional breakdown, you finally get packed off to see Maharaji with a letter of introduction from his mahatma stating that you 'would die' if you didn't get Knowledge. Finally, you arrive and are such a basket-case that you can do more than huddle, frightened, on his front lawn watching everyone else prostrate at his feet. The point is, Joan, like everything else in Maharaji's world, your account for EV seems to be no more than a whitewash, a pack of lies tailored to sidestep the true nature of this cult. Here's how you ended your entry for EV: I wouldn't say it's easy to practice Knowledge. It's daunting to be aware of the motor mouth of the mind. But it is simple. Even I can do it. The rewards? Maybe just that little inch of separation between my worries and me, which makes a huge difference in my life! And here's how you ended your entry for the book: Guru Maharaj Ji is pure and perfect. We can experience this purity and this perfection only from the divine manifestation of the soul, the Perfect Master. When I understood that Knowledge was the way that I could be constantly connected to him, internally and externally, I begged for Knowledge. And he gave me that entrance into the kingdom of heaven. See my problem, Joan? Think about it. Anyway, I should let you know that you've been the subject of some discussion over on the ex-premie forum: http://www.ex-premie.org/forum5/main.cgi Many people there think that you, personally, should be accountable for the part you played in rallying the troops. I, for one, think that, while that may be true, the real issue for you must be one of honesty. Wouldn't you like to come clean with your past, etc. etc.? Trial by fire, Joan. It's the only way. I'd add more but I'm running late for a wedding! Sincerely, Jim Heller

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:29:37 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: Jim Subject: Cult members, what cult members? Message:

Jim, Great letter, thanks! What's the first thing the body needs out of the womb? What's the last thing the body does at passing? You gotta admit, it's a key ingredient; there are other important functions as well but breath is major league physics.. Go Bush Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:39:44 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: Are you really that simple? Message:

What the hell is your point about the breath, Blue Max? Are you actually siding with Maharaji and saying that you think it's conscious? That it hovers over the delivering mother and jumps in when it wants or leaves kids stillborn when it prefers? And death? What's that in terms of the breath? The breath says 'enough' and splits? Don't be stupid about this!

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:50:08 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: Jim Subject: The Breath/Matrix function Message:

Jim, Not sidin' with anyone. The breath doesn't jump; it's a pump.. It seems to be a 'post' function; a reaction to an apriori state..an implication of a higher matrix. A matrix with a destiny of sorts.. A convenient way to access the matrix IS the breath function. Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:02:56 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: The Journeying Soul-US-WE are of the higher Message:

matrix. And the breath is the bridge and the sustaining power that keeps us alive here in this 3D place for now, and connected to our eternal before/after life at the same time. Like an air hose on a deep sea dive. It will keep us alive until we have to surface from where we dove, where we will be able to live without the hose, until we want to dive again. Can't go up or down too quick or we get the bends, and could even pop from the pressure. Diving instructors can be valuable, even if they don't have perfect personalities or meet with the approval of our concepts. Ain't it a kick?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 10:31:51 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: shp Subject: The Journeying Soul-US-WE are of the higher Message:

Hi Shp, I know what you're talking about. Lots of spiritual paths think the same thing. I just don't see how Maha has some kind of monopoly on this. The Buddhists, sufis, etc etc have been saying the same thing for a lot more years. All of the folks in my area who are into meditation know about these techniques and have all had some cosmic experiences-- without giving up their sovereignty to a guru. Many have accepted techniques from teachers but none of them have been asked to surrender to those teachers. None of those teachers have claimed that they are the only one or that the students are unable to express their experiences. Maha is a megolomaniac who needs to get himself sorted out psychologically. Maybe he should walk his talk? Jung said that a healer ( meaning someone who is trying to help others get some aspect of their lives sorted ) can never work effectively unless he stops thinking himself superior to the one he is trying to help. That rings true with me. I get the feeling from your posts that you are a really good guy and very sincere. I want you to know that if you ever see through Maha's scam that you will not lose anything except your false projection onto him. You will not lose your connection to 'that experience' and you will grow more into realisation of the truth that there is nothing outside of you that is superior to your own self. Your I presence is the highest truth. Maha has distorted things cleverly and you don't realise that until you break free and see. Best wishes man, Hal

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:44:47 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Hal Subject: The Journeying Soul-US-WE are of the higher Message:

Hal, Thank you for seeing me more as I really am than how I am being depicted buy the more negative forces here. You said: 'I just don't see how Maha has some kind of monopoly on this. The Buddhists, sufis, etc etc have been saying the same thing for a lot more years.' This is a conundrum. I know I have heard and read his own words that state he is not everyone's teacher, he is not the only one saying this, is not everyone's GM and there are other ways to get there...and I have heard the opposite said, mostly by instructors like Charananad and other old timers who say that he is the only way to get to Heaven within. Hence the paradox. You know what, Hal? I'm beginning to think that very little to nothing on the outside matters, that it's all about our true motives and aspirations of our own heart of hearts. Whether or not we have the juice to manifest it does not seem to be the most important thing. Like the story about the two guys, one went into a monestary life and one went into the life of party clubs. They both died on the same day and met up at the pearly gates. To their mutual shock and surprise, the monk was booked for hell and the party boy got a first class ticket to heaven. As they passed each other in the Big Terminal, they had a moment to chat. Being the intense moment that it was, they were both totally honest with each other. The monk admitted that every day he wished he could be out partying, but he was hedging his bets for entry to heaven and stayed in the monestary. The party boy told his friend that every day he woke up in a different bed hung over, he wished in his heart that he could be with God. I am not advocating monastic life or hedonistic life. I am just sharing a story that had an effect on me ever since I heard it.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:15:04 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: shp Subject: Should we support a fraud? Message:

Sandy So if it all comes down to what we experience of internal reality why support a hypocrite and fraud? Can we go on in our integrity giving creedance to these guys who sell a few techniques like souvenirs to Westerners? Hal

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 20:36:17 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Hal Subject: Should we support a fraud? Message:

We should all be true to ourselves, then we cannot be false to anyone else, as Shakespeare so eloquently put it...mistaken maybe, searching maybe, but not false.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 23:26:56 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: shp Subject: No offense shp but....... Message:

You are a slippery fucker ! Hal

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 15:42:57 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: shp Subject: The Journeying Soul-US-WE are of the higher Message:

I've been thinking about something, Sandy, which I'd like to share with you. It's about the dynamic of the guru/devotee relationship. It can only work if both the devotee and the guru believe in the divinity of the guru. The guru is supposed to be a mirror for the devotee, what it is in himself that the devotee most aspires toward. A deep love for each other is the result, for both parties become partners in the devotees longing for what he sees in the 'mirror'. Now this can work in a small flock of devotees, but I think it's difficult to achieve the way Maharaji has attempted, by spreading himself around the world. It becomes terribly impersonal. But, while I think everybody can really sail high in this kind of relationship, the bubble bursts when the realization dawns that it's all based on fantasy. Both devotee and guru have to believe that the guru is absolutely perfect, and has risen above every impurity that diminishes that perfection. Otherwise, the 'mirror' becomes tarnished, and no longer provides the perfect reflection that only a true master can. (I'm not saying there really is such a thing. I'm just exploring the dynamics of such a relationship between guru and devotee). Now this is what's happenned to ex-premies. Somewhere along the line, Maharaji became imperfect, and when that happenned the whole ball of wax unravelled. He was no longer the 'perfect mirror'. We could no longer look at him and see what we longed to perfect in ourselves, a perfect being. This has also happenned to you. But what you're now doing is lowering your standards. You're still trying to reach 'god' through Maharaji, the drunk. You have become so enamored with Maharaji and what you've seen in him, that you're afraid to let go of him for fear of losing what you see in the mirror. You see it fading, and perhaps that frightens you. My suggestion is that you take a hammer, and smash the mirror. Break the spell. Live in reality. It ain't so bad.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 16:19:41 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jerry Subject: The Journeying Soul-US-WE are of the higher Message:

Jerry, Please accept my response as my own thoughts, not as a sell or a persuasion, becuase that is not my intention. I have copied your post below and my responses are carroted: I've been thinking about something, Sandy, which I'd like to share with you. It's about the dynamic of the guru/devotee relationship. It can only work if both the devotee and the guru believe in the divinity of the guru. >Actually, the way I understand the relationship, each must believe in the divinity of themselves AND the other, for the lover and the beloved (the human being and the divinity within that is played out like street theatre between guru and devotee out here in 3D) to become One. Only difference as I see it is that one gets to be the teacher and one gets to be the student in any given lifetime, for some reason that I don't understand intellectually, but feel is present and finds us all where we are at in our stations in life. Free will, destiny, karma, grace, Divine will....all winds that blow into our sails. The guru is supposed to be a mirror for the devotee, what it is in himself that the devotee most aspires toward. A deep love for each other is the result, for both parties become partners in the devotees longing for what he sees in the 'mirror'. Now this can work in a small flock of devotees, but I think it's difficult to achieve the way Maharaji has attempted, by spreading himself around the world. It becomes terribly impersonal. >I feel closer to some people who are far away from me physically than I do to some who are near. I am sure you do too in your life. In this unique relationship of teacher/student, I do not give time and space too much importance. But, while I think everybody can really sail high in this kind of relationship, the bubble bursts when the realization dawns that it's all based on fantasy. Both devotee and guru have to believe that the guru is absolutely perfect, and has risen above every impurity that diminishes that perfection. Otherwise, the 'mirror' becomes tarnished, and no longer provides the perfect reflection that only a true master can. (I'm not saying there really is such a thing. I'm just exploring the dynamics of such a relationship between guru and devotee). >Alot depends on what is considered to be the meaning of 'perfect' and what is the meaning of 'fantasy'. Now this is what's happenned to ex-premies. Somewhere along the line, Maharaji became imperfect, and when that happenned the whole ball of wax unravelled. He was no longer the 'perfect mirror'. We could no longer look at him and see what we longed to perfect in ourselves, a perfect being. This has also happenned to you. But what you're now doing is lowering your standards. You're still trying to reach 'god' through Maharaji, the drunk. You have become so enamored with Maharaji and what you've seen in him, that you're afraid to let go of him for fear of losing what you see in the mirror. You see it fading, and perhaps that frightens you. >I don't feel any fear right now. I feel like I am on a sincere search. The reflection of perfection that I have recognized in Maharaji all these years has not been outer, having to do with his height, girth, wealth, haibts, or anything like that, although I am recently flabbergasted at some of the things I have read here. It's been my conscious acknowledgement of Maharaji's part in my life, of being the revealer of that which feels the most perfect experience within me to date when I pay attention to it. My suggestion is that you take a hammer, and smash the mirror. Break the spell. Live in reality. It ain't so bad. >Maybe if I clean my mirror off better and shine it up real good, nothing has to be broken, just cleaned up and dusted off and repositioned to shine and reflect more and brighter light on us all. Like the pizza guy said to Buddha after taking his $20, and Buddha asked for change: 'Change comes from within.'

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 17:09:50 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: shp Subject: I don't know if I'm making myself clear Message:

Sandy, What I've said about the guru/devotee relationship is pretty much the conventional way of looking at it. The guru is the mirror. He's god-made-man. At the very least, he's a messenger sent by god. That's why we put our trust in him. Why would we put our trust in somebody less when we're looking for god? But he's a human being, the same as us. We see our humanity in him, which we can identify with, being human ourselves. But we also see 'god' in him. And, because the guru is human and approachable, 'god' also is now approachable, through our beloved guru. The problem is, is any of this real? Yeah, we can really fly high believing all this, and the deeper you believe it, the higher you fly. But is it real? That's all. Is it real?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 20:52:53 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jerry Subject: As a man thinketh, so is he and other cliches... Message:

Jerry, That's how I feel. The cliches are exactly that because they have been used so much...and why have they been used so much and have lasted so long? Perhaps because they (most of them) are True yesterday, today, and into the foreseeable future. If it's real for you, it's real. If you love somebody and want to marry her, does somebody else have to validate those feelings for you by feeling them too? It's real for you and that is enough. That's how intimate it is with a teacher of this kind too as I see it. I see most of what is going on in the world today as unreal, as an aberration of a civilization (or at least its leaders) gone mad, separated from its own group head and heart on a global scale to the point of near self-extinction. Yeah, it could become reality, but the destruction began in illusion. So what is real for me is that which provides what I need in this life, what provides me with love and a channel to return it and keep the exchange going. I think that is the ultimate lesson of this earthly life, to know love, to fill one's life with the giving and receiving of it in all its glorious manifestations. If a teacher and his or her lessons help you get to that place, then it is a good relationship.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 00:45:52 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: A one-armed scale is no scale at all Message:

The cliches are exactly that because they have been used so much...and why have they been used so much and have lasted so long? Perhaps because they (most of them) are True yesterday, today, and into the foreseeable future. This is how shp thinks. This is how a lot of premies think. And it's all wrong. Blatantly, cowardly wrong, wrong, wrong. Shp identifies an issue: why have all these spiritual cliches maintained their popularity for so long? (Assuming, for argument's sake that that's true). But look what he does with that issue! He proposes one possible answer and hides behind it as if that's even close to really looking into the matter. 'Perhaps .....' -- okay, that's one candidate, but are there any others? Shp is afraid to ask that question. That's what it looks like, anyway. but I don't want to be guilty of the very thing I'm accusing him of. Please, if you can think of any other possible explanations for why shp would deal with an issue so ineffectually, what is it? The only likely answer I can come up with is the one I've just mentioned.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 04:20:39 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maybe I have seen something beyond your skyline Message:

of neverending paradoxes that must be decided upon, that you have not seen yet. Not that I'm better or smarter, just that I may have glimpsed soemthing that you haven't and it looks strange and foreign to you. You need to learn how to express yourself without judging someone else. Next time you go to a movie and you did not care for it, just say 'I did not care for it' instead of 'it sucked'. You can communicate your displeasure without passing judgement. Try it. You'll like it. Maybe.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 19:52:03 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: HA HA HA! YOU JUST PROVED MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Message:

Maybe I have seen something beyond your skyline...... is only one possibility, isn't it? Yet that's how you argue. You throw out one possibility, no matter how lame (Maharaji as Noah, drunk but still God's loyal servant) and shut your eyes to the full realm of alternatives. Too much that you would do this again, right now, when it's the very thing I'm accusing you of. You must be dreamwalking.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 21:13:03 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: shp Subject: As a man thinketh, so is he and other cliches... Message:

Sorry, Sandy, it's got to be real, and not just because I think it's real, but because it really is.... real.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 22:53:36 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jerry Subject: As a man thinketh, so is he and other cliches... Message:

From what you just said, we have more in common than you think. Really. I just believe the ONE ABSOLUTE TRUE THING we both seek is in everyone and everything, and the variety has been provided for our pleasure. So enjoy the variety! The One Thing you seek that is ultimately REAL is everywhere! As long as you sincerely seek the ONE THING in whatever you choose, I firmly believe you will find it. As Kabir said, 'I laugh when I hear that the fish in the water is thirsty.'

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 23:36:45 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: shp Subject: Fantasizing Message:

From what you just said, it doesn't matter to you who Maharaji really is. All that matters to you is finding that 'ONE THING', and it's alright to make Maharaji into whatever you want if that helps you find it, even if he really isn't what you've made of him. That's called fantasizing, Sandy. It's what the whole guru/devotee trip is based on.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:15:31 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: shp Subject: The Journeying Soul-US-WE are of the higher Message:

shp, Right on..The human condition is an implication of something or somewhere else. Breath is one obvious key to the matrix. Paying attention is the first step.. Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:17:02 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: Listen to these guys talk to each other! (nt) Message:

ffffffff

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:04:20 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: THEN WHAT ABOUT SLEEP APNEA?????? (nt) Message:

gggggggggggg

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:14:28 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: You don't want my opinion, you want M's, so why Message:

don't you e-mail him? Or better yet, ask him inside now. See what comes back at ya. And you still haven't toldme if you think I'm smart enough to deal with you or if you are just playing with a 'mental invalid', yep those were your words. So cap all you want, that's just another tactic of a spoiled child, to yell if he doesn't get his way. You are being pathetic.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 06:29:53 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: shp Subject: oh, shit, not that hoodoo guru shit! Message:

shp sez: Or better yet, ask him inside now. See what comes back at ya... Oh, shit! There's somebody inside me now? Get me a priest! I need an exorcism! inside, inside, inside THAT beauty, THAT love, THAT thing inside, inside, inside Man, this shit is creepy shit when you get right down to it! I don't want that fat greasy guy inside of me! Shit, what did I do to deserve that? You is sick, shp. This guru shit has fucked up your head.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:47:27 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: OK Roger, ask yourself! Message:

Does that make you feel better?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 20:20:27 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: shp Subject: Yes, I do feel better now. Thank you from... Message:

the kinder gentler me now that I've found you. shp, regardless of the merciless verbal beatings you receive you are a defacto institution here, for better or for worse. Your martyrdom will not go unrewarded. Maharaji, your living Master, is quietly watching from the sidelines and HE loves you, shp. He would like to speak up and say it to the entire World, but he cannot do that for fear of further ridicule and persecution. shp, your reward awaits you in Maharaji Heaven, where you will be Triple X-Rated and berated and belittled by the alcoholic Master's own sharp tongue. Your experience here at the Ex-Premie Forum is helping you prepare for that time and you should show some gratitude, ok?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:18:05 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: That's three times now you've avoided the question Message:

Pathetic

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:33:02 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: That's three times...now I get a spanking? Message:

Pathetic is right, asking someone you just called a mental invalid to explain my version of a sleep disorder that Harvard professors are wrestling with. The word Doofus comes to mind now when I think of you. A big fat doofus. I can just see you in court repeating the same question over and over and over at some poor slob whose brain power is dwarfed by your bloated egomaniacal presence, just so you can get a paycheck. Well, this ain't court and I'm not some poor slob whose brain power is dwarfed by your bloated etc etc etc. Pathetic is the right word, James. My goat is sleeping peacefully and I'll be damned if I'm going to let the likes of you disturb his rest. Be gone with ye!

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:38:16 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: Okay, shp, how about this? Message:

Why not just think about the question a bit if your'e so afraid to answer it right now? Here it is again in slightly different form: If the breath is conscious, what does it mean that some people have a medical condition wherein they stop breathing in their sleep? Is sleep apnea a 'spiritual' condition?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:56:27 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Okay, Jim, how about THIS? Message:

Why not just think about the question a bit if your'e so afraid to answer it right now? -Jim Who said I'm afraid? Isn't that called 'leading the witness'? or something else that is not cricket in court or polite society? Oneupmanship, I think it's call by some. Sorry, I don't play. -shp Here it is again in slightly different form: If the breath is conscious, what does it mean that some people have a medical condition wherein they stop breathing in their sleep? -Jim Wapner's on in twenty minutes....Wapner's on in twenty minutes... Is sleep apnea a 'spiritual' condition? -Jim I'm an excellent driver. Rain man, Jim, are you my rain man? Wapner's on..... See pal, I'm not playing! You gotta eat some of your words and swallow them all the way (no cheeking any tidbits to spit at me later) if you want to have any semblance of an intelligent conversation with me. Now who exactly is a mental invalid?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 18:50:00 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: shp sticks his fingers in his ears -- funny? sad? Message:

You're my mop, shp.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:59:01 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: The Breath/Matrix function Message:

Well, Jim, what have you got to say about THAT, huh? Ha, ha, ha...

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:58:26 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: What the fuck ......? Message:

Don't ever try to talk to me like that again, fella. You sound like a 20 year-old guy trying to seduce a 17 year-old girl. If I wanted poetry I'd ask for it. Instead, I asked you a simple question and you start doing this funky chicken on me. Let's talk turkey, shall we? Maharaji claims that the breath is divine. He claims that it's conscious and it pretty well enters and leaves you at will. Now I'm asking you if you accept that. If you don't, then you don't. Then he's wrong in your eyes and there's no reason for you not to admit it, unless of course you're afraid to for some reason.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:06:28 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: Jim Subject: What the fuck ......? Message:

Come on, Jim.. It's your basic Physio-Phenomenology 101. Who said anything about divinity?? That's why I let the Guru go...I got nothin' to protect. Why do you fight this? Are you protecting something? Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:09:50 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: Fair enough --- so can we tie this up? Message:

You might not subscribe to that stupid thinking but, as you'll notice in the first post on this thread, Maharaji taught exactly that earlier today. So what do you say about him? Is he stupid, foolish, tricky? What? (And no Matrix stuff!)

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:28:33 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: Jim Subject: We can tie it up-if it's fair! Message:

Jim, Maybe he's just an off-kilter sign post; part of the Plan.. It's just too bad that he tied a lot of folks up into the Hindu/ Ashram model. Western Civ is too reactionary for that style. My problem is with the G5..The Challenger is much more efficient as a long range transcontinental bird. In my view, the G5 is an excessive use of hard earned funds. Not necessary to promoting the key to the (excuse me) 'Matrix'. Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:31:49 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: Cute, but you're just forcing me to ask........ Message:

Are you saying that the breath is the key to the 'Matrix'? How old are you? What did you do for a life plan before Keannu Reeves fun little comic book of a movie? Was it just twenty-four years of 'the force' until this new movie last year?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:44:57 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: Jim Subject: Cute, but you're just forcing me to ask........ Message:

Jim, Just using words that fit the discussion..Never saw the Matrix. All I'm saying is that the breath is an 'implication' of something or somewhere else. It seems to be a key that works for the purpose of an invitation to that somewhere... Down through history, it's been a major focus in the search for higher meaning. My age? Gosh, I don't know.. Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:52:50 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: Think about what you're saying Message:

All I'm saying is that the breath is an 'implication' of something or somewhere else. It seems to be a key that works for the purpose of an invitation to that somewhere... As far as I know, the breath is the bodies way of oxygenating the blood and getting rid of toxins. Down through history, it's been a major focus in the search for higher meaning. Yes, it sure has. Just like blood, which has been feared, worshipped, 'studied' (superstitiously) and even prayed to. As has the placenta, sheep's livers, and all sorts of weird shit. We've got science now and science has and can free us from such backward thinking. I get the impression, however, that you just kinda like it.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:07:04 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Think about what YOU'RE saying Message:

Jim, Agreed about the other functions..in RELIGIOUS history. In the scientific arena we are moving beyond into Quantum Theory and Consciousness studies where depending on how we ask the questions is the answers we are getting.(Astronomy and String theory come to mind..) The Universe has been nearly proven to be breathing.(Red Shift and Doppler Analysis). I see a corelation, that's all. It does feel kinda nice though, Guru aside.. Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 07:41:42 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: *****ALERT! ALERT! NEW AGE CLICHE!******* Message:

Not Quantum Theory, BM. Anything but that, please! Look, you're killing me already. I surrender. Okay, have it your way, the universe IS breathing! Just, please, no Quantum Theory, please.....

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:37:23 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: Jim Subject: *****ALERT! ALERT! NEW AGE CLICHE!******* Message:

Jim, Ok, ok, no Quantum Theory..have a cigar on the Unified Field Theory, though. Take it from me, it's a good view. Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 13:25:04 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Jim Subject: LOL! Jim gets the cigar, I think -nt- Message:

Make that two cigars.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:31:20 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Hawaiian Cigar Message:

JohnT, But I was just about to offer Jim a genuine Hawaiian vanilla- flavored cigar from Kauai, man! He's fairly good on the riposte moves..needs some help in the phenomenology dept. Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:11:40 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: Jim Subject: Think about what YOU'RE saying Message:

Jim, I think I put your name instead of mine in my last post. It answers one of your questions and I'm looking forward to your reply. Sorry, Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:37:57 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: See Blue Max, he baits you into a question, acts Message:

all interested in your answer, then he proceeds to evisceration with as few blows as possible. If you struggle, it will get messy, I promise you. Best not to get in striking range. It's a wasted use of energy and a challenge put forth by a hungry soul who cannot feed himself in any other realm but physical. Sad.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:55:32 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: shp Subject: See Blue Max, he baits you into a question, acts Message:

shp, He's good, but along with Philosophy I also took fencing... Great combination! Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:59:37 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: Touche! (nt) Message:

asfl;t4

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:32:42 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: When Gore wins, I want you to take the fiver and Message:

deliver it to your local Green Party office, not send it to me. And be prepared to receive the wrath of Hell-er if you agree with me on anyyyything, especially if it disagrees with Jim.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:39:51 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: shp Subject: Jim Heller Message:

Jim seems to be one of your 'Mos Eisley Spaceport' types. He probably does have the death sentence on 12 systems... He's a good man; just a bit testy.. Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:43:39 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: Mos Eisley...you crack me up, Blue Max! Message:

Testy, as in too much testosterone. There have been studies on that as it relates to violent crime and aggressive behavior in general. Maybe we should have a t-test before we can post. That would cut down on the bullshit quick.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:27:27 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Your point is dull and so are you Message:

I think one of the reasons Jesus chose Luke the Physician as a disciple was to validate the practice of medicine and the healing arts to fix malfunctions in the human frame brought about by 'sin' or wrong living, eating, thinking, or something in the human geneology that separates people from a long and healthy life. 'Sin' means separation. Separation from what? You said it in your post, Jim. Separation from life, from breath. This is not religion talk, this is science on a level I don't think you understand yet. So you probably see these words as religious babble, much like a baby who would play with diamonds and gold like shiny toys, not realizing their true worth, and then throw them away and go look for some other new and different stimulus, even if it was made of plastic.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:49:07 (GMT) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: shp Subject: Luke wasn't one of the Twelve nt Message:

He was a Gentile disciple of Paul's.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:09:48 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Speckity speck speck speck Message:

If you accept that Paul was moved and chosen by Jesus to be an apostle, and that Paul was a servant of the Holy Spirit, then Luke was a disciple of Christ, not Paul. Which number he was is of no consequnece except to historians who like to quibble over such things. I can just see Jesus Himself cracking up, both amused and perturbed at your attention to minutae when you are supposed to be upholding the spirit of love first and foremost, and to hell with the letter of the law!

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:25:47 (GMT) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: shp Subject: Speckity speck speck speck Message:

Jesus called the Twelve. You just don't want to admit that you are full of it. You twist the Bible to fit your sorry little New Agey baloney. I'm happy to hear that you and Jesus are so tight, since you follow some fraud instead of the Jesus you respect so.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:48:22 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Speckity speck speck speck Message:

I still 'follow' Jesus' teachings, never stopped when I received Knowledge. I see no conflict. Pretty snippy of you to make that accusation. Jesus called Paul, too. Just because he wasn't in his body, are you telling me it didn't happen and Paul was hallucinating? I'd rather be wrong on what number Luke pulled in the Divine Deli than be making the mistake you are making now in this dialog with me. Listen Mickey, clergy heavier than you have tried to intimidate me and they are history, so if you want to talk to me, let's not play 'holy man vs sinner', OK. I'm hip to all that jive that has kept whole civilizations down for milleniae. They called Jesus a fraud too, all the men of the cloth who had so much to lose if he was for real. Hung out with whores and sinners, probably even got a little on the side, how could he be the One, they asked themselves, ripping their garments....

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 12:22:04 (GMT) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: shp Subject: Speckity speck speck speck Message:

' so if you want to talk to me, let's not play 'holy man vs sinner'... ' I've always believed that YOU were the so-called Holy Man in these attempts at conversation, so full of self-righteousness and humility. SHP, I know that you think you are being humble and all when you come here and spout your Bible story paraphrases, but this isn't Sunday School. Misquotes and twisting of the scriptures and message of Judaism and Christianity is the kind of stuff which frauds like M do to give his sorry little cult legitimacy in the West. You like to accuse me of keeping the letter of the law and ignoring the true message, but the fact is, one needs to know the text if one is going to talk about it; Sunday School platitudes are not real theology. 'OK. I'm hip to all that jive that has kept whole civilizations down for milleniae.' Oh my God, he's figured out the conspiracy!! All the clergy are goners now!! SHP, I'm not trying to intimidate you, I'm trying to get you to rise up out of your foggy Sunday School memory of the scripture and do some thinking.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 14:58:37 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: We both believe in God, and all the rest is Message:

details. Mickey, if you and I differ on ritual, scripture, who's who in the spiritual realms, etc etc, if one must be in a tank or in running water to be baptized, if women can wear dresses or be ordained or not, let's just not go there, OK? We are brothers across a chasm of concepts which do not all agree. I was born Jewish and realized Jesus Christ was the Messiah foretold in my own hertage's Scripture over 30 years ago. Do you realize what that did to all my family relationships at the time? Do you thhink I stuffed my realization back down to appease anyone? Hell no. My mind and soul are wide open to all possibliites subsequent to that event that He said would/could happen. Teachers who would do greater things than He did, false teachers, wars, rumors of wars, the works. So Mickey, peace to you, man. I am tired of splitting hairs over words and missing the spirit of brotherly love. We both have bigger fish to fry. Later, hermano.

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Date: Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 14:13:28 (GMT) From: 20 years Email: None To: shp Subject: We both believe in God, and all the rest is Message:

What do you believe?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:43:34 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: So you CAN'T answer the question? Message:

What on earth are you talking about? Certianly not what I asked. Listen, shp, I asked you about sleep apnea and how it fits into the 'conscious breath' -- hey, make that 'divine breath' idea that your cult has inculcated you with. Deal with it if you can. I don't think you need to burden the discussion with Jesus, Luke or any shppie religious prattle. Just answer the question.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 03:53:59 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: One minute you call me a moron and the next Message:

minute you are asking me questions about a sleep disorder that Harvard professors are wrestling with. I know this because I was on the crew that videotaped a session with four of the top guys up in Boston about a month ago. Same guys who hooked up John Glenn with that cap full of pick-ups when he went on the shuttle, same guys who go on Oprah and talk about sleep disorders with her audience and the TV public. And you are asking me, someone you have deemed as mentally deficient? What kind of an idiot are you? Make up your fucking mind. Am I intelligent enough to ask such questions of, or am I a moron, fuckface? It's not nice to play with mental invalids, ya know...drool. If you did not accept my answer the first time, why should I bother. I don't recall being given directions in this life that I have to please you, prove anything to you or even meet with your approval. GET IT YET? FACT: You still can't have my goat yet. Milk your own. FACT: Peer group pressure and the other bullshit you are pulling has no effect on me. It is a weak move. You suck.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:01:41 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: I knew it -- get lost if you're so gutless Message:

A simple, simple question, shp. And you're afraid to answer it. No, I don't want to hear about Luke, Jesus, Harvard, John Glenn or even Oprah. I want to hear your opinion about sleep apnea and how that relates to Maharaji's teaching about the breath being conscious. This is the third time I'm asking, shp. If you're not willing to answer, say so. No more jive though, please.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:26:25 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Accuser and Abuser of mental invalids, kiss my Message:

low IQ. Hahahahahahahahahaha What-EVER I would say about any sleep disorder, or anything for that matter, you would find fault and begin your ritual feeding frenzy. I have to wean you off my blood. Sorry, Jim it's all my fault that you have such a taste for it. I didn't know any better in the beginning, but now I see what your game is more clearly. If I don't give you a shot at my jugular, you can't hurt me and further pollute the Forum with this weird energy that you seem to generate with anyone who stands up to you, premie or ex-premie. Please get professional help. You may be able to contain your abnormal and verbally violent behavior on this site for now, but someday you may feel the need to expand your bloated ego trip to the outside world and then you will have many problems. I will not sponsor it anymore. You can say I am avoidoing this or that specific question, but we both know better, don't we? You are an energy/power tripper, and a classic one at that. I don't want to be around when you have your Waterloo. It will hurt, but you will probably survive and be a better person for it. May it happen while you yet live.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:45:53 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: shp Subject: shp you bum, have you read MD reply to you? Message:

or are you too busy playing 'I want to be bashed by Jim'?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:05:54 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Salam Subject: Yes, I read Michael's reply and no, that is not Message:

what I am doing on the other thread. Thank you for letting me know it came in, Salam.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:12:42 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: shp Subject: You're welcome Message:

did you find you're cloths yet?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 05:16:46 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Salam Subject: Hey Salam, listen here a minute.... Message:

It's c-l-o-t-h-e-s. I am not saying this to make fun or criticize you. I am trying to help you be more literate in English. OK? Please accept my help in the spirit I gave it to you. No meanness or anything like that, for real. Goodnight.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 08:29:58 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: shp Subject: English sucks.....nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:33:30 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Salam Subject: Maybe Message:

But what you really need to know the difference between is cook and cock. You cook meals, Salam. You don't cock them. Well, maybe you could, I guess, if you wanted to, but I don't think many people do.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 04:28:29 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: By my count, that's four (nt) Message:

coward

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 18:49:23 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Anything Goes Message:

Just in case there's any newbies out there who haven't yet stumbled across a (former) sister-site (which used to have a link at the top of this forum), the following post from 'Anything Goes' is good for a laff or deux: A Fairy Tale for the Goddess Woman (by Windflower) Once upon a time, in a land far away, A beautiful, independent, self assured princess, happened upon a frog as she sat contemplating ecological issues on the shores of an unpolluted pond in a verdant meadow near her castle. The frog hopped into the Princess' lap and said: Elegant Lady, I was once a handsome Prince, until an evil witch cast a spell upon me. One kiss from you, however, and I will turn back into the dapper, young Prince that I am and then, my sweet, we can marry and setup housekeeping in your castle with my Mother, where you can prepare my meals, clean my clothes, bear my children, and forever feel grateful and happy doing so. That night, on a repast of lightly sautéed frogs legs seasoned in a white wine and onion cream sauce, she chuckled to herself and thought; I don't fucking think so. . . . Thanks for that, Windflower.

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 22:08:43 (GMT) From: The Nitpicker Email: None To: cq Subject: Anything Goes Message:

Anything Goes

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 19:19:00 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: The Nitpicker Subject: Many thanks for posting a working link (nt) Message:

1

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:20:59 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: New Friends Here Subject: Joan Rapter Message:

Thank you Michael for being so open about what was and is going on behind the scene. I'm beginning to understand why the sense of betrayal is deep among many folks. My reasons for continuing to practice the techniques are documented in my opening previous posts. I took what was necessary and left the rest behind..sing loi! I have a question concerning the Rapter. Is she still a serious PAM and is she X-rated as well, for how long? Thanks again to all for the heartfelt journeys.. Blue Max PS Hawaii was wonderful!

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 21:54:14 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: Joan Raptor Message:

The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones You are here for a (metaphorical) funeral, I hope? Not much about the Raptor, I'm afraid. Jim's written to her, and I penned a sonnet for the good lady. You can read them both here. No response yet, AFAIK. Maybe naughty Yves knows something. Tsk tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 22:20:03 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Joan Raptor Message:

Oh, that was perfect! Really well written. No response from her? I remember her from the India trip in 1972 before I lived in the ashram..Spielberg must have modeled his dinos after her. I know that Gary Rydstrom MUST have sampled her voice for the part.. Kudos to Jim as well! Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 22:46:51 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: A Dress for Joan Message:

You are very kind. Apparently, the Raptor once ripped some poor would-be ashram sisters for $2000. Spent it on a silk dress for herself at some posh shop (neils and bernstein ?). Can't find the thread that was in, right now. I've looked twice, but I can't see it in the inactive; or in the archives (21 Oct to 29th Oct). I'd appreciate a repost or link, if anyone finds that.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:19:04 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: be Subject: Blue me! :) -nt- Message:

-nt-

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:02:50 (GMT) From: me Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: No family gopi Joan Message:

Many people were discouraged from having kids by the lord. Joan is just one. Mike Dettmers has mentioned the subject. Did he effect YOU in this way?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:27:22 (GMT) From: Blue Max Email: None To: me Subject: No family gopi Joan Message:

No, no effect in that direction. I made up my mind not to have children before I recieved Knowledge. Many of us in our community however were, I think.. I was lucky to be involved with someone who shared that outlook before we were married so it wasn't an issue. We kind of looked at each other and said...'Nah! let's not spoil the fun' I'm an uncle many times over and that allows me to enjoy children and offer guidance from that perspective. Being an artist can command a lot of private time so I felt that that would have an effect on my ability to be a good parent. I never felt it in my gene pool enough to proceed. I used to notice a sense of loneliness in Joan's eyes though I think she tried to hide it. Even though I was angry with her in those days, I felt sorry for her anyway...Blue Max

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 00:51:38 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: Blue Max Subject: Carb Uncle Message:

My parents gave off five children and nine grandchildren. That's enough, goddammit. :) No little Chrises running around. 'Daddy, I want to start the fire!' I don't think so. :) I've always said it this way: if I could afford a professional staff to raise the child, then fine; do it that way. Otherwise, no thanks. I can borrow children any time I want them around; their parents (my siblings) are dying to get rid of them for a day or a weekend. They want them back, eventually -- usually not soon enough. If you return them conscious (or unconscious, but sleeping) you usually get your deposit back.

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