Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 21:23:03 (GMT)
From: Oct 31, 2000 To: Nov 09, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


Tim Matheson -:- LORD MAHARAJI's Head of Security... -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 12:28:05 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Is Reggie Brown really the head of security? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 05:33:31 (GMT)
__ the dude -:- Hey beautiful site man, it can't be long before -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 17:52:36 (GMT)
__ DV -:- LORD MAHARAJI's Head of Security... -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:15:39 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- I joined so i'd have a yahoo club-u2,y not -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 10:19:03 (GMT)

20 years -:- the pothead. -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 00:44:39 (GMT)
__ 20 years -:- Nothing -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:48:21 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- I'd rather smoke pot than pray to Jesus -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:55:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- I'd rather... -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 10:38:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ 20 years -:- None -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:15:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- None -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:24:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ 20 tears ago -:- practicality not purity -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:12:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- practicality not purity -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 03:22:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ 20 years -:- sue? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 19:43:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- sue? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:55:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ 20 -:- Thank you -:- Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 15:48:32 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Cry For Help (ot) -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 00:33:42 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Steve ... you want to cry? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:11:10 (GMT)
__ bill -:- this is a negative site! Go to a fun place.-nt -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:08:45 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- In the meantime, if you feel it, do it. -nt -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:14:52 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Steve... -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 11:57:19 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Steve... -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:07:14 (GMT)
__ William Shakespeare -:- I can dig it -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 10:47:35 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- P.S. Thanks..... -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 15:47:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- P.S. Thanks..... -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:48:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Katie H = Katie -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 19:09:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- All together now! -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 20:43:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks for the link, and I'm singing right now... -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 20:52:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- I can hear it now! -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 21:29:09 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- PS -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 12:58:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- discovering deception -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:06:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ jk -:- PS -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:49:34 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Cry For Help (ot) -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 02:20:55 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Women are people -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 19:02:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Women are people -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:36:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- Women are people -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 20:02:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Women are people -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 19:52:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Women are people -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 21:39:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Women are people -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:09:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Women are people -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:17:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Oh shit -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:22:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Too funny, Jerry... -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:05:47 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- A Cry For Help IS NOT (ot)!!!!!!! -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 10:00:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- like your analogy to a dam breaking -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:41:14 (GMT)
__ __ Rick -:- Cry For Help (ot) -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 06:33:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lurking Female -:- Cry For Help (ot) -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 07:19:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Cry For Help (ot) -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 17:51:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lurking Femals -:- Cry For Help (ot) -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 20:04:22 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Take it easy with yourself -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 02:55:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Take it easy with yourself -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:30:36 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Wish I could help -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 02:35:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Blue Max -:- Let us know -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 04:07:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ humahumanokakokaapuahah -:- How was Hawaii? -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:59:10 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- Cry For Help (ot) -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 00:41:17 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Cry For Help (ot) -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:35:33 (GMT)

The Dolphin -:- Sat Chit Ananda , in the NAME of MAHARAJI. -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 17:06:39 (GMT)
__ DV -:- Come down off joint, get G.E.D., then return.(nt) -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 01:06:28 (GMT)
__ __ The Dolphin -:- Come down off joint, get G.E.D., then return. -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 18:01:58 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- Sat Chit Ananda , in the NAME of MAHARAJI. -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 17:51:06 (GMT)
__ __ Rick -:- Sat Chit Ananda , in the NAME of MAHARAJI. -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:16:30 (GMT)
__ A.L.P. -:- The Boss -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 17:49:03 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- U sound awfully like 'Shroom to me, ALP/Erica... -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:34:13 (GMT)
__ __ Gordon Showcase -:- Hey that's a good spin, ALP -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 16:56:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- and don't forget the pixies -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:30:57 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Hitler was innocent OK. -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 12:02:25 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- Explain the yacht. the gold toilet.etc. -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 11:40:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- Thanks Janet -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:38:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- So Mili, is Dettmers talking 'bullshit' too? READ! -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 10:36:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Mili's impotence is sad, sad, sad -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:04:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Mili's Sour Grapes -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 19:10:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- I missed the public fights w/ Marilyn in Malibu -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 17:58:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- And -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:30:39 (GMT)
__ __ Rick -:- The Boss -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:30:22 (GMT)
__ __ And On Anand Ji -:- The Boss -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:12:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ A.L.P. -:- The Boss -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:26:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- changing things -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 21:40:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PHD -:- The Boss -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 22:17:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ A.L.P. -:- The Boss -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 09:37:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Keep posting then. -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:42:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- And that makes you feel good?? -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 10:00:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Put your money where your mouth is -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 20:06:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ A..L.P. -:- Reply -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 22:50:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Get lost, fluffy (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:01:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ulf -:- Reply -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:01:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Erica -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 22:58:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ The Dolphin -:- Erica Just enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 15:13:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Erica -:- Apologies -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:19:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Go away and stop wasting our time. (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:40:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Get stuffed, you idiot. -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 02:48:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ The Dolphin -:- Is this the best of you?nt -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:57:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I'll second Salam's 'Get Stuffed'.... -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:54:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ The Dolphin -:- to do what it is liked to do is go o d.nt -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 15:04:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- El Delphin you boofhead -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:09:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Also, didn't I tell you that NT means No Text. -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:15:40 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Talk about denial dude! Astounding blinkers ! nt -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:04:28 (GMT)

JohnT -:- Microsoft deletes Scientology (ot ?) -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 12:49:37 (GMT)
__ janet -:- Scientology and codewriting tragedy sidebar(OT) -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 11:59:51 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Microsoft deletes Scientology (ot ?) -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 17:17:09 (GMT)

And On Anand Ji -:- Pot-Smoking Guru Maharaji Doll With Saliva Updesh -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 08:03:41 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- Cool web site links - OT - -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 15:09:16 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- Et tu, Sant Ji? -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 00:37:46 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- Clock Cloak Clique -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 15:57:53 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Clock cloak clique -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 09:27:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ And On Anand Ji -:- Clock cloak clique -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:31:29 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Pot-Smoking Guru Maharaji Doll With Saliva Updesh -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 15:01:20 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Updesh: is a special dish made especially -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 15:50:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Updesh: is a special dish made especially -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 17:06:11 (GMT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Pot-Smoking Guru Maharaji Doll With Saliva Updesh -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 15:41:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Pot-Smoking Guru Maharaji Doll With Saliva Updesh -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 16:58:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Frampton -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 01:44:58 (GMT)
__ a0aji -:- Pot-Smoking Guru Maharaji Doll With Saliva Updesh -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 08:20:22 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Updesh...... -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 15:36:39 (GMT)

Salam -:- Jim : Care to explain -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 06:01:05 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Jim : Care to explain -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 19:01:37 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- That's it? -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 09:10:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Salam, it AIN'T gonna happen -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 22:30:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Man, do you have to shout so loud? -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:48:55 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- I know you are addressing Jim but -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 06:13:14 (GMT)
__ __ Lurking Poster -:- Copying Selene re question to Jim (from below) -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 12:04:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- most of us didn't have normal relationships -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:33:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ A.L.P. -:- Child Support -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:20:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That sure is a perverse perspective -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 19:06:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Erica -:- Oh yeah? -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 09:45:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- So? What's your point? -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 22:35:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- what? -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:46:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lurking Poster -:- .He was chasing glory and saving the world -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 20:15:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- the word is abandonment(nt) -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 12:16:50 (GMT)

Jim -:- Anyone else subscribe to the EV newsletter? -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 16:31:44 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Conflict of Ideologies. -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 12:28:45 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Yes, Anth, that's it exactly -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:18:06 (GMT)
__ Patrick to Jim -:- Anyone else subscribe to the EV newsletter? -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 03:28:51 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Okay, I will. And you make an excellent point -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 19:14:39 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Sir Swaroop........ -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 02:40:39 (GMT)
__ __ Anon -:- Sir Swaroop........ -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 03:47:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Sir Swaroop........ -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 14:07:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Sir Swaroop........ -:- Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 16:29:33 (GMT)
__ Patrick -:- Sarupanand's biographer has spoken about this... -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 01:50:40 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Any discussion of 'guru' lineage ... -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 05:22:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Anon -:- Any discussion of 'guru' lineage ... -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 10:02:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Apologies Patrick ... -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 13:13:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick -:- sorry - I keep typing Anon from habit! (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 10:04:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- When did you reincarnate from Anon to Patrick? nt -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 11:55:08 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Darshan and prasad from bole ji now available! -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 00:13:28 (GMT)
__ __ Gail -:- Let's kiss the lotus feet again--Bhole Shri ... -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 03:51:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- naive is the word I just got labeled with -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 05:18:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Tell it to Tony Blair! -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 16:09:24 (GMT)
__ John K -:- Anyone else subscribe to the EV newsletter? -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 18:26:25 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Sarupanand's disputed successor -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:58:57 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Shri Hans changed his position, no? -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 23:12:28 (GMT)
__ __ Swami Viagra -:- Sarupanand's disputed successor -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 21:36:25 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Interesting choice of quotes -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:36:39 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Anyone else subscribe to the EV newsletter? -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 16:57:30 (GMT)
__ John K. -:- Anyone else subscribe to the EV newsletter? -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 16:51:16 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Anyone else subscribe to the EV newsletter? -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:54:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- think i'll send this to little brother -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 12:17:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- he'd never do this either -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 12:23:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Do what? -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 14:09:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Spot the dummies. -:- Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 12:43:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- How do you subscribe? -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 20:28:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- It's on EV's web site..nt -:- Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 22:59:32 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 12:28:05 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: LORD MAHARAJI's Head of Security...
Message:
is now revealed at my club--http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ilovemaharaji

New members are always welcome-so please join NOW!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 05:33:31 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: Is Reggie Brown really the head of security?
Message:
Tim-how do you know that Reggie Brown is head of security now?
I knew Reggie and his fine family at DECA in Miami, and had heard that they were very disillusioned about m these days...

Just curious about anything else you might know...

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 17:52:36 (GMT)
From: the dude
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: Hey beautiful site man, it can't be long before
Message:
everybody gets the chance to experience his grace, and peace is finally reached on this planet man.

Pauline Premie needs to hear about this site, at last a chat site for premies

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:15:39 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: LORD MAHARAJI's Head of Security...
Message:
Thats too bad. Reggie told me in Miami a couple of years ago that he wasn't going to be seeing much of Pudge and Mala anymore. I wonder if Harry Paine is still handling residence security.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 10:19:03 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: the forum
Subject: I joined so i'd have a yahoo club-u2,y not
Message:
i can't use the yahoo chat, tho :(
we webtv ducks cant decode java :(
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 00:44:39 (GMT)
From: 20 years
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: the pothead.
Message:
I was wondering if anyone ever sued him. I have been reading the symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and it appears that the symptoms really represent what expremies could easily experience. There's three basic symptoms are:
1. recurrent and intrusive distressing recollections of the event, including images, thoughts, or perceptions.
2. Avoidance - this could either be a flood of emotions or the inability to feel
3. hyperarousal - a person will act or feel as if they were constantly threatened by the trauma causing their illness.

Its much more involved that this but this is the three basic symptoms.

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:48:21 (GMT)
From: 20 years
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: Nothing
Message:
Not for nothing, but I couldn't meet the criteria. This site is a little cliqueish and (I am not speaking for all)it surprises me a little how unfriendly God's people can be. Isn't that why you got into G to begin with, you believed he was God, Good, nice, loving, God. Joke. I also think this site might be good to use to find a way to get compensation, but if you just want to gossip and rattle on about the pain he caused you then you're no better than him. Again, I am not speaking to everyone. You should still be looking for God, not crying because G wasn't it. Do you think he's crying? We got fooled, so what. But, we let ourselves because of whatever sick place we were in at the time. We had a need. He could sue him, but that's about it.
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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:55:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: 20 years
Subject: I'd rather smoke pot than pray to Jesus
Message:
Your acceptance of yet another, albeit far better established cult, than the one we all fell prey to leaves a lot of us cold. Can't you see that?

Sure, Michael's a christian too but he knows better than to try to spread the 'good word' here. You don't. Why?

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 10:38:41 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'd rather...
Message:
joke smeesus, I mean smoke jesus,aw fuck it I can't find my shoes and I forgot where I live.

Guess I'll go back to the coffee bar and sort things out man.

Anthslidingdownhillfast

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:15:30 (GMT)
From: 20 years
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: None
Message:
Do you think there is no possibility of God now, just because we have been disallusioned by one dope. Marijuana isn't the answer, its just an escape; I no longer drink. I was referring to M as the Pothead; for him, it's ludicrous. I don't need to drink anymore. It was just another way of keeping me down. I don't want to be down anymore. I foolishly thought that what helped me might help someone else, but obviously it's not going to work here. Also, it's been kind of interesting hereing what a total fool he made of himself. Look, far be it from me to push Christ down anyone's throat. That's why I call myself 20 years ago now. But, I can't help but mention what I think or feel about something when it pertains to that.
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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:24:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: 20 years
Subject: None
Message:
20,

You seem okay. Just quit the preaching, 'kay? No, I personally don't think there's anything like a god otu there. I think that consciousness is a unique product of brains. No brain, no consciousness. Some here agree with me, others don't, but no one wants to hear about Jesus, I can tell you that.

But as for keeping you 'down', I gues it depends on your map, doesn't it? If you think that we're tarnished 'souls' trying to get back to some, clean, pure state, I could see your point. Alcohol, pot, anything really that isn't just clean, light and unengrossing (don't forget THAT problem) gets in the way. But I don't buy that at all. In fact, I think that religious 'purity' agendas are all no better than the 'no chit chat' rule we put up with in the cult and which, ironically, we're discussing up above.

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:12:11 (GMT)
From: 20 tears ago
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: practicality not purity
Message:
Just something on alcohol for me. It messed up my life. I am not a social drinker. I tried drinking normally for a long time, my life just got really messed up and didn't feel I was going anywhere, downwards that's all. I didn't quit because It's not pure (I,m sure some of it is). And, if I could have drank without consequence, I certainly would be doing it today. I don't know anything about pot to argue that point, except, I think its an escape of some kind. I don't want to escape, but I guess I still am with cigaretes. Some of what I do, is spiritually (I know you don't like his word) grounded. Someone would have to beg me to use the J word on this website in the future. I believe some people don't have a conscience and how many people do you know that have no brains or consciousness?
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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 03:22:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: 20 tears ago
Subject: practicality not purity
Message:
I believe some people don't have a conscience

And .....?

and how many people do you know that have no brains or consciousness?

None.

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 19:43:31 (GMT)
From: 20 years
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: sue?
Message:
One more question, has anyone tried to sue M? Do you think it could be done? How? How long have you been out of it?
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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:55:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: 20 years
Subject: sue?
Message:
I think that at least a couple of people have sued m over large inheritances they've given over and tried to retrieve. I really only know of one such case, Darby -- can't remember her last name -- from Canada. But I don't know of any that wasn't settled one way or another, complete with attending, customary non-disclosure committments.

Everyone keeps asking about suing m and it gets a little tiring to repeat my answer which is that I don't think it'd be very easy to do, given the great protections afforded religious leaders who express all sorts of dumb claptrap, under the U.S. Constitution and elsewhere.

I got k in April, '73, joined the ashram that fall, a month before Millenium, moved out briefly after the Toronto Hans Jayanti a year later, moved back in and stayed in until 1980. By the early 80's I'd renounced m and the cult although I can't say when that exactly was.

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Date: Tues, Nov 07, 2000 at 15:48:32 (GMT)
From: 20
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thank you
Message:
Thanks Jim, You're O.K.
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 00:33:42 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Cry For Help (ot)
Message:
This is a cry for help. I am feeling very negative towards people in general and women in particular.

I just want to cry and cry and cry.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 20:11:10 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Steve ... you want to cry?
Message:
Crying is the most ...

...

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

well, how does it feel for you?

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:08:45 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: this is a negative site! Go to a fun place.-nt
Message:
sfghs
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:14:52 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: In the meantime, if you feel it, do it. -nt
Message:
dfhda
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 11:57:19 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Steve...
Message:
Hi Steve,

When somebody asks for help, it's a sign that they have started to deal with whatever their problem is. This is a very positive step in sorting out whatever is bothering you. So bravo. It takes courage to ask for help.

My totally unprofessional advice, is to find someone who specialises in helping people with your sort of problem. There are people who know all about the type of stuff that's bothering you, and can help you deal with it. If you live in a European country, you can get this help freely and easily through your family doctor.

Your situation could then be handled in a comfortable, supportive and caring environment, by somebody who has studied the type of problem that is bugging you.

I don't think a public forum is the most suitable place to sort this kind of thing out.

It would be nice to meet up with you and have a chat sometime. If you live in Europe, and would like to do that, let me know.

Take care Steve, and hang in there.

Anth who's got a headful of shit too.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:07:14 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Steve...
Message:
Dear Steve,
I agree with Anth that asking for help is really your starting to fix this in you.
I don't know what to tell you about how you are feeling just wanted to say that I am sorry you are having such a rough time and hope you get to start feeling better soon.
I am a pretty non threatening woman I think and if you would like to email me I would be happy to write you. I don't have much time on the net these days but I seem to manage. :)
sundogs@hotmail.com
No worries if you don't feel like writing either.
PS to Anth, hi honey, I've missed you. Hope you are still looking at those ricolas and thinking of me. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 10:47:35 (GMT)
From: William Shakespeare
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I can dig it
Message:
'I have of late, but wherefore I know not, lost all my mirth, foregone all custom of exercises; and indeed, it goes so heavily with my disposition that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a stale promontory; this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this magestical roof fretted with golden fire: why, it appearith nothing to me but a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors.

What a piece of work is man, how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god: the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals; and yet to me, what is this quintessence of dust?

Man delights not me; nor woman neither'...

Hamlet speaking in Act 2 Scene 2 of The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark.

Posted by JohnT

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 15:47:17 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: William Shakespeare
Subject: P.S. Thanks.....
Message:
Dear John T,

Thank you for posting that quote. When I was a teenager I memorized Hamlet. That particular quote always makes me cry and feel shivers (in a good way). It strikes a spot in me that knows what betrayal can do to a human being, to me.

BTW, do you remember the 'Hair' Broadway play? That quote was put to music in that play. I can still hear the melody in my head, too bad there's no audio here....

Thanks again,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:48:58 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: P.S. Thanks.....
Message:
Hi Cynthia and John T. -
I love that quote too. Also, the one about 'life's brief candle'.

Cynthia, a friend and I memorized the 'What a piece of work is man' song from Hair when we were both 14, and used to sing it on the school bus. Must have driven everyone nuts - that song is hard to sing, and I can't even carry a tune in the first place. I love the song though.

Take care, both of you,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 19:09:03 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Katie H = Katie
Message:
I use the posting name Katie H on another site and sometimes type it here by mistake. Sorry!
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 20:43:48 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: All together now!
Message:
From: http://www.geocities.com/hairpages/lyrics.html

'Aquarius'

When the moon is in the Seventh House
and Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius
The age of Aquarius
Aquarius! Aquarius!

Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revelation
And the mind's true liberation
Aquarius! Aquarius!

When the moon is in the Seventh House
and Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius
The age of Aquarius
Aquarius! Aquarius!

(extra verses from London 1993 production)

As our hearts go beating through the night
We dance unto the dawn of day
To be the bearers of the water
Our light will lead the way

We are the spirit of the age of Aquarius
The age of Aquarius
Aquarius! Aquarius!

Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
Angelic illumination
Rising fiery constellation
Travelling our starry courses
Guided by the cosmic forces
Oh, care for us; Aquarius

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 20:52:41 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Thanks for the link, and I'm singing right now...
Message:
and I have a pretty good voice....

What a piece of work is man.....

However did you find that site???

Love,
Cyn

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 21:29:09 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I can hear it now!
Message:
My usual engine is Google (http://www.google.com/). It throws up the page as its second result if you search for 'Hair! Lyrics'

Google is good for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it does not take money from publishers to return thier pages in preference to others. Secondly, it gives a page extra weight if many other pages (that are themselves linked to) point to it, on the basis that authoritative pages get linked to.

The Google approach has proven powerful and their technology is increasingly used. That's a reason for EPO supporters to chuck up sites, however modest, that point here.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 12:58:34 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: PS
Message:
I should have mentioned (for those who haven't seen or read Hamlet) that Hamlet's extremity of angst was occasioned by the discovery that his life had been hijacked by a monstrous pretense.

Those famous lines were pended by the Bard to convey Hamlet's state of mind on discovering his mother's new husband had previously murdered her first husband, Hamlet's father.

Hope you're feeling more positive tomorrow, Steve, and Good Luck with the meeting.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:06:09 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: discovering deception
Message:
That was a great quote for what Steve is expressing, what all of us have felt for one reason or many. Certainly the bullshit of the cult left me that way.
Thanks JohnT and best wishes Steve.
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:49:34 (GMT)
From: jk
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: PS
Message:
theres no pr0n on that link so why did you give it

~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
~
just kidding - a0aji

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 02:20:55 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Cry For Help (ot)
Message:
Some people have said 'forget about the phony guru and get on with your life'. I have responded that I can't forget about him and won't rest until this whole charade and mind-fucking journey is put to an end.

One thing I haven't talked about because it is very personal to me is that a few months ago I started having a very close connection to Shri Hans, m's late father who passed away in 1966. Most of us know that m was eight years old at that time and took over his father's role as guru.

The last week or so, my feelings towards Shri Hans have turned from very deep love to very strong hatred because, I felt he was guiding me in my battle to remove m from his 'throne' but as things drag on with no final outcome, my love has turned to cynicism.

My relationships with male friends has become amazingly good lately considering I was as shy as a doormouse for most of my life. However, I love women and my love life has been disastrous lately and I can't seem to turn it around.

I hope this isn't too personal but I feel entwined in this forum and feel good to some extent sharing personal feelings.

Thanks,

Steve

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 19:02:13 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Women are people
Message:
Hi Steve -
I can relate a bit to what you have said about women because I have had my own problems with the female sex (even though I am a member).

However, the main problem my male friends - and I have a lot of them - have with women in general is is in not seeing them as human beings - they tend to see women more as 'potential relationships' rather than as people. I sense when someone is viewing me in this way and I back off really fast - I feel that the person is less interested in me as a person than in what they can get from me.

Not sure if this is a problem for you - but just my two cents worth.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:36:07 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Women are people
Message:
I see women as potential friends and potential lovers. But I don't seem to have enough in common with most women to develop friendships.

I feel that the 'world' is very screwed up. I think women are more screwed up than men. That's just my observation and my opinion. It's very subjective probably.

As I've already said, I have some very good male friends, and feel a desparate need to balance things out, but am having a very hard time doing so.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 20:02:35 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Women are people
Message:
Some women see men as potential meal tickets, as well as potential relationships. They're filling a slot.
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 19:52:02 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Women are people
Message:
Your post got me thinking, Katie. If a guy is viewing a woman as a potential relationship, it means he admires and desires her. Ultimately it's a compliment and a reason for the woman to feel flattered. If you're already in a relationship or not interested, then it can be an annoyance. Your bank account is full and you're not doing business.

But if a woman is alone and wants a relationship, and notices that Mr. So-and-So has quality goods, then oh-brother, watch out.

I think it goes both ways, though, for men or women. Although with men, they usually have to not find the woman attractive (even if they're in a relationship) for it to be an annoyance. At worse, guys will usually feel duty-bound to not get involved, but appreciate the stimulation of the woman's interest, if she's attractive.

This is probably because guys think about sex so often. Usually, the more women that want to have sex with them, the better they feel about it. For women, they often are tired of being seen as sex objects and don't need a zillion guys staring at them.

I guess my point is that it's easier for women to be cavalier about this, and especially now, in this day and age. Women no longer need men like they did a hundred years ago. Being without a man doesn't mean you can't survive.

But for many men, not much has changed in the last hundred years. They still want to have sex with as many women as possible before they get married, and sometimes after. They still want as many women as possible to desire them. And they'd still like to have enough money to support a woman.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 21:39:39 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rick and aoaji
Subject: Women are people
Message:
Hey guys -
First, I never said that women didn't do it too.

Second, I don't mind if I can tell someone is attracted to me. The problem is that if they project this heavy attraction vibe and are too aggressive without knowing anything about me but the way I look on the outside. Even if I'm not presently in a relationship with someone else, I don't like that - I feel that they are projecting their own wants and needs on me because of outward appearances. It seems superficial and shallow - and it tells me a lot about that person.

And Rick, re your last paragraph - I just don't think you can generalize like that. Yes, I know there is some basis for this in evolutionary science, but I've met enough men who don't feel like this (and women who DO feel like this) that I think the broad generalization about 'men' is wrong. I should add that most people who don't feel that they fit the pattern are somewhat ashamed of not being a 'typical man' or 'typical woman' and try to hide it - maybe that's why the generalizations persist.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:09:09 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Women are people
Message:
And Rick, re your last paragraph - I just don't think you can generalize like that. Yes, I know there is some basis for this in evolutionary science, but I've met enough men who don't feel like this (and women who DO feel like this) that I think the broad generalization about 'men' is wrong. I should add that most people who don't feel that they fit the pattern are somewhat ashamed of not being a 'typical man' or 'typical woman' and try to hide it - maybe that's why the generalizations persist.

Yes, it is a generalization. Certainly not everyone is like that, and I know I lot of guys want one serious relationship. It makes sense because it's fulfilling, whereas empty sex isn't. But I think the conflict in men between realizing a serious relationship is better, and also wanting just pure sex, is greater than in women, on the whole. Another generalization, I know.

I base this on the absolutely pure scientific and empirical double-blind studies of having talked with a few handfuls of men and women in my life.

It's true that myths can perpetuate themselves but was I really the only person who laughed when Seinfeld said men think about sex, pretty much all the time? Or when the character Harry, in 'When Harry Met Sally', said that men pretty much want to sleep with all women, even when they're just friends and not very attractive?

Now I can't say I think about sex all the time, and I've met women who think about it more than me. But I've met more men that think about sex alot than women. Maybe the women who don't want to have sex with me are lying.

And I don't want to have sex with women I find unattractive. But I'll bet, just bet, that I'd give it more consideration than most women.

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:17:30 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Women are people
Message:
It's true that myths can perpetuate themselves but was I really the only person who laughed when Seinfeld said men think about sex, pretty much all the time? Or when the character Harry, in 'When Harry Met Sally', said that men pretty much want to sleep with all women, even when they're just friends and not very attractive?

And don't forget when the character played by Sarah Michelle Gellar in Simply Irresistable realized, to her horror, that the man who she was speaking to her had thought of having sex with her 4 times during their conversation, based upon statistics that state a man thinks of having sex once every 4 minutes. They had been conversing for approximately 15 minutes. BTW, how many times have you thought of having sex with Katie through all this?

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:22:58 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Oh shit
Message:
Coffee all over the keyboard. BUSTED. Well, at least you let me know I'm not crazy, Jerry.
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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:05:47 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Too funny, Jerry...
Message:
Seriously!

I'm not gonna touch this one, except to say that Rick and I have met in the 'real world' - snicker...

Take care, both of you - I'm still laughing.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 10:00:09 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: A Cry For Help IS NOT (ot)!!!!!!!
Message:
I read everything posted before i came back up to post. wanted to know the whole drift before i opened my mouth.

Steve--when periods of grief come pouring out like this, we want them to stop, because they feel so awful. no one likes feeling so much betrayal. It also feels as if it will never end, because we have to live our lives in linear time, and we can't see the future from here.
But what seems to have no relief, or finish, now, in this moment, actually will have an end, because there is movement happening. you arent stuck. you arent static. you arent frozen.

if it helps, think about a dam breaking. all this vast power is held back, behind a wall, for so long...and then it can't hold the burgeoning fullness any longer, and it gives way. all that tremendous force, that was prevented from finding its natural way, thunders forth, and anything in its way is slammed ahead, by its immensity.
To the object rooted in place, that can't move, it feels as though the torrent will never end. The flow just keeps coming and coming.
But to an observer on high ground, not engulfed in the release, it would be readily discernible that the volume has a beginning, a duration, and an ending.

If you are the one engulfed in the torrent, that cannot move away, to you it feels as if it will never cease. Yet we, the ones watching from another, more distant vantage point, can see that it definitely will cease, because the flow is moving--away from whatever bound it for so long, and now being freed, is surging forward, toward its direction of choice, no longer to be denied.

Do not despair at our seeming distance. It gives us the ability to report to you with certainty that it will indeed cease. If you will permit the turbulence, and allow the temporary chaos, it will pass, but you will not. You will come out of this intact. Indeed, better than before.

As the pressure goes down, and the previously restrained spreads out, the urgency will be relieved. The intensity will drop. You WILL emerge from this; changed, better, wiser, clearer. But the only way out is through.

It is a natural process. It is the way it happens. But it is not fun. It is the only way. That dam, once sundered, cannot be put back up while the torrent is crashing down the mountainside. It will have its way until it comes to equilibrium. and if that means it floods the landscape, so be it. Some forces cannot be shaped to our convenience, they are so vast.

the good news is this:the very fact that it is happening means that what you are could not be destroyed, could not be denied, despite all that was tried to contain it. You are real. You have prevailed. The attempt to remake you was unsuccessful. This is your true power reasserting itself, and there is no stoppng it.

The very fact you can witness this, and articulate it, means that only one part of you is experiencing the torrent flowing past it, to whom it feels as if it will never end. Another part is the moving force, blasting away obstacles in its path and plungng forward to its intended destiny. Still another part of you is on that high bluff, seeing the entire span of the event, and understanding that when all is done, there will be peace once again, and a new landscape, without the restriction, and the former tension.

In some sense, you are experiencing what it is to be one with the waters, and at the same time, one with the riverbed, and still again, at one with the mountains. Perhaps this is what it means to be at one with the creation. Perhaps this is what it means, to feel as god feels. Perhaps this is the real meaning of what it is “to be one with god.”

Not all that nonsense we were indoctrinated to try and reach for, but this. Maybe the natural capacity to feel, to know each of these things in turn; to be aware of them, and experience them, is the real meaning of being able to be one with the Creator.

and if this is so, Steven--then there truly is nothing to fear, for it means god is with you, and you are with him, and nothing--but NOTHING--can ever keep you down again.

not even us.(lol)

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:41:14 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: like your analogy to a dam breaking
Message:
My current therapist gives a great lecture to various groups.
She calls it the Pressure Cooker lecture and it has the same theme.

All this stuff boiling around that we have stuffed and stuffed and stuffed and then the release valve is opened. It has to come out that way slowly and painfully or the other option, the lid blows and it's all haywire. Either way it has to come out and identifying what we stuffed in there is very helpful.

Thankfully I am finally in a place where I can listen to others w/o automatically discounting what they have to say at least most of the time.

Because before after all, I had the untimate authority on everything to look toward and needed no one else or so I thought. YUCK!!!!

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 06:33:38 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Cry For Help (ot)
Message:
Hi Steve,
How long since you're out of the cult? What was it that led you to leave?

The good thing is that for you the charade is mostly over. Who knows how much effect we can have outside ourselves? To whatever extent we can help stop maharaji from fooling people, that's great, but the important thing is that he can't fool you anymore. So feel good about that.

It's important to remember that you don't know and have never known Shri Hans. His writing and images may have affected you, but that's different than actually knowing someone. It's necessary to remember that because part of the delusion we learned from the cult was to blur imagination with reality.

Your notion that Shri Hans was guiding you to remove maharaji from his throne was your imagination. Try to understand that.

It's your own desire that is guiding you to see maharaji 'dethroned'. And it's only natural to realize that it may be very slow going, or that it may never actually happen.

But once again, however powerless you feel about this, try to feel some good that you got yourself out of the cult. It's more than alot of people have been able to do, and it's no easy task.

I don't know what to tell you about women. Most guys won't feel unusually sorry for you because you find that tough.

Anyway, hang in there. Good times may be right around the corner.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 07:19:18 (GMT)
From: Lurking Female
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Cry For Help (ot)
Message:
I'll second that last comment . I am woman and I dont like them much. I thought it was because they were people, not women.

Roseanne says she hates everyone equally- without prejudice- until they prove her wrong.
there is some sense in that i think

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 17:51:23 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Lurking Female
Subject: Cry For Help (ot)
Message:
I went through a long 'not liking other women' phase but it's over thankfully. I'm stil not sure what I was so angry about.
It seemed at the time that women wer not as straigtforward or more deceptive. But now I see there is good and bad in both the sexes.
I think my new phase is not liking men who obvously dislike women.
hmmmpphhh. Guess I have been mostly lucky in the men I know.
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 20:04:22 (GMT)
From: Lurking Femals
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Cry For Help (ot)
Message:
Ya Selene- right again.
It is exhausting hating. What I meant is that I dont bother liking them until they show me what they are made of. After that they can even blow it by bieng deceptive and I might still like them.
Your courrent phase is a familiar one

Z

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 02:55:14 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Take it easy with yourself
Message:
You worry me with posts like that. Do you get looked after by someone? or are you on your own.?
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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:30:36 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@home.com
To: Salam
Subject: Take it easy with yourself
Message:
I have a psychiatrist who I see once or twice a month and some good male friends.

I've been in therapy for fourteen years. It's when things go well for a while and then a big disappointment happens that I feel at my worst.

I am going through a difficult time but my friends, including those on this bulletin board, are helping.

If you look under 'Here's What's Up' under the 'Walking The Walk' thread, you'll get more insight into what's happening to me. I've got a lawyer communicating with my psychiatrist right now and the lawyer has been mind-fucking me big-time. I'm seeing the shrink tomorrow and will probably get things sorted out.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 02:35:07 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Wish I could help
Message:
I really don't know what to tell you, Steve. It seems you've got a lot on your mind. I hope it all works out.
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 04:07:33 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Let us know
Message:
Steve,

Let us know if we can do something. We're here, friend..

Blue Max

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 01:59:10 (GMT)
From: humahumanokakokaapuahah
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: How was Hawaii?
Message:
fyjkyt
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 00:41:17 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Cry For Help (ot)
Message:
People suck. Even so, you better find someone in your area you trust and talk with them -- hopefully, in person. Reach out to your real friends.

Good luck.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:35:33 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steven Quint
Subject: Cry For Help (ot)
Message:
Dear Steve,

Read janet's post again, and again. It's filled with honesty and articulates brilliantly the process of healing. The images and message are strong and true. Yet, I worry that you are alone in this process. Crying is your friend, but the brand of grief you are now processing can become overwhelming, if you open those flood gates and have no one to hold onto. Whether it's a friend or a therapist, try to connect to someone in your life. You won't cry forever; I've been terrified to cry in the past and once I learned that my tears released so much grief, (you'll feel exhausted) later the release turns into relief. As janet said, it's not fun at all, this is a process.

I, too, felt a strong connection to Shri Hans in the past. One reason is because his birthday, Nov. 9th, is one day before mine and back in the 70's when m held Hans Jayanti in the US, I believed (the programming) that it was Shr Han's lila that every year I'd see m on my birthday. Then the connection went deeper and I believed it brought me closer to M, but obviously it didn't.

You are in a soup of anger and grief from M's betrayal and that (at least in my experience) can cause great chaos inside. That's a sign of the first steps of recovery. You can name it. That you feel like you hate women feels similar to a feeling I used to have for men. I hated them all for a long time until I realized that every man in this world is not my father nor m.

Please take care of yourself, Steven. You deserve to feel the goodness of yourself, despite the cult. A cry for help is a sign that you want help and I honor you for that. It takes real courage to ask for help.

Please take care of yourself, you are cared about here, and do have friends here.

My best to you,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 17:06:39 (GMT)
From: The Dolphin
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sat Chit Ananda , in the NAME of MAHARAJI.
Message:
I've been thinking about MAHARAJ's name , I've been observing how the name is use by people that don't have any idea what it means , for example the 'premies' team work and they take a desition calling it MAJARAJ's orders (like MAHARAJ had done personally).
In another way M. made the EV desition (the organitation's idea has come like a profet promising been eyes , ears ,hands and brain -it might be a nuclear ingenieer work for EV- making M's desires became true; but forgoting what's really important) at such level that if somebody tells M. go! , he do it; and if somebody tells M. don't COME! , he doesn't do it.
I think that this stuff means nothing.I would like to know who is the boss.
Thanks.
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 01:06:28 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: The Dolphin
Subject: Come down off joint, get G.E.D., then return.(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 18:01:58 (GMT)
From: The Dolphin
Email: None
To: DV
Subject: Come down off joint, get G.E.D., then return.
Message:
Could you translate to me , please?
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 17:51:06 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: The Dolphin
Subject: Sat Chit Ananda , in the NAME of MAHARAJI.
Message:
Dolphin,

I tried to translate what you said into more plain language:


I've been thinking about Maharaji's name. I've observed how the name is used by people that don't have any idea what it means: great king.

For example, the premies do work, and they call it Maharaji's orders (like Maharaji had given the orders personally, which he didn't -- Feh.)

Another example: Maharaji made the Elan Vital decision (the organisation's idea had come like a prophet promising new eyes, ears, hands and brain -- it might be a nuclear engineer who works for Elan Vital -- making Maharaji's wishes come true; but forgetting what's really important) at such a level that if somebody tells Maharaji 'Go!' he would do it; and if somebody tells Maharaji 'Don't come!' he doesn't do it.

I think that Elan Vital's interference with Maharaji's Mission is worthless. Who is the boss? Is it the premies, or is it Maharaji?

Thanks.


Is that even close? :)

a0aji

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:16:30 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Sat Chit Ananda , in the NAME of MAHARAJI.
Message:
Bravo, aOaji. I had no idea what this turkey was saying.
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 17:49:03 (GMT)
From: A.L.P.
Email: None
To: The Dolphin
Subject: The Boss
Message:
You are absolutely right. So much of what goes on in EV and in DLM in the past was NOT Maharaji. It was people like Michael Dettmers, Bob Mishler and other people involved in this website who made those decisions, and then they have the affront to turn around and say it was all M. I DON'T BUY IT!!!

What M gives in Knowledge and his inspriation and guidance. That's it. The rest of it is all our interpretation. Just as there are so many interpretations of what K is and who M is on this site. But these are all interpretations.

I have seen over the years how M works. He does give a free hand to people. They come to him with an idea and he says, yeah sure, give it a go. And then suddenly the way it filters down to us is , 'This is what Maharaji wants'. When, in reality, it's not what he wants, it's what those people want to do for him. There is a definite line.

Just as so much that is on this website is people's outrage at how they were treated in the past, living in the ashrams, etc. But, in reality, it wasn't M who was treating them in this way. It was people like Michael Dettmers who were in responsible positions but who did not use their responsibility in a correct manner. They make sure living conditions were comfortable and take care of the people who came under their umbrella.

Just as so much that is said is not actually said by him. It's said by all these other people. If you actually sit down and listen to what he has to say about all of this, it's a totally different story.

One has to be sure of drawing a very distinct line between other people's interpretations and what M is actually saying.

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:34:13 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: A.L.P.
Subject: U sound awfully like 'Shroom to me, ALP/Erica...
Message:
Do you remember Shroom? Have you been reading the site that long?

Can you categorically deny being one and the same person?

Or maybe 'O' or 'Nil' or 'URL' or '&^%&$' or 'Mirror' etc..?

Sorry for the suspicious tone, but we've been beseiged by shape-shifting premies in the past who change their alias at regular intervals, presumbably to distance themselves from their former incarnations and repost the same weary accusations and arguments.

In the interests of openness and good communications, perhaps you would care to inform us of any former identities you have used here..?

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 16:56:18 (GMT)
From: Gordon Showcase
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: Hey that's a good spin, ALP
Message:
I never thought about that one. Let's blame it all on Mike Dettmers. What a weeze! You must have burned the midnight oil planning that strategy to lambast these loosers with.

I used to blame it all on his mother, you know. That and global warming.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:30:57 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: and don't forget the pixies
Message:
They lurk and sneak up on the premies. Take their minds and confuse them. They are fun loving but in the end one looossses
site of the true meaning of life, devotion to Maharaji in the true and real sense of the meaning of his name wich is so easily confused with the not true meaning.

jai sat

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 12:02:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: Hitler was innocent OK.
Message:
ALP

This really is fucking pathetic. He controls the Universe, not a leaf moves without his will, but he's no idea what the people running his tinpot little organisation are up to- even though he meets with them every day- and their only function on Earth is to 'do his will'- and suppress their individual ambitions and desires.

ALP you've been fucked up by a cult- why not thinking about getting your life back.

Anth the finite

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 11:40:23 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: Explain the yacht. the gold toilet.etc.
Message:
i once thought as you do. I felt that Maharaji meant something simple and clear and beautiful, and that it was the PAM's and the 'bongos' and us confused, 'worldly' devotees, who kept getting it wrong and misinterpreting it, and repeatedly needed to be set straight again.

But that belief crumbled, in the face of firsthand reports of his longstanding alcoholism. His pot smoking. His passing out and having to be carried upstairs unconscious to bed. His tobacco smoking. His menages å trois with/out Marolyn, and Claudia, and Monica. His siring of a bastard child with his brother's wife, that most likely does not know her real parentage. His exploding when Marolyn retaliated by bedding her chauffeur. His despair when she told him he would never see his kids again, if he went through with divorcing her. His gloom and vulnerability and reaching out to a male confidant during the period when he beleived it was going to become a reality. His sudden distancing himself and aloofness, when that spectre retreated again. His public fights and scenes with Marolyn in Malibu restaurants, nearing violence.None of these bespeak anything beautiful, or of beautiful experience.

On the subject of agya, and 'what Maharaji wants', there is no mistake on the part of the PAMs , the premies or anybody else, regarding what Maharaji wants. He wanted that Boeing 707, and he wanted it furnished with gold toilets and custom interior, and he came by DECA regularly to modify it, to suit his ever fickle tastes, and what he wanted, he got: No mistake about that.He wanted it done without OSHA or the EPA safety rules, and without health insurance, and without paying anybody the prevailing wage, and without obeying the labor laws, and he got that.

He wanted that estate in Malibu and he made that plain and he got that. When he wanted a yacht, he did'nt even make that known, except to a select few--and he got that. No confusion on the part of the premies, there--there couldn't be, because they were specifically not allowed to know he wanted it. That one clearly wasn't their misinterpretation of 'what Maharaji wants'.

What Maharaji wants, Maharaji gets. Make no mistake about that. it isnt a case of misinterpretation. Its a case of him shutting down anything that makes the money flow away from him. When we tried to take our service spirit to the nursing homes and prisons and the homeless, he stopped that. When we tried to make it a humanitarian organization, he quashed that. When Dettmers tried to make it a church to comply with the IRS audit, he severed that. And when he found out the ashrams were going to cost him more money to keep open than they would bring him, he closed them, too. No misinterpretation. Real clear.

The reason it is possible to keep premies stringing along, trying to follow, always starting over and thinking they must have misunderstood, is because it is impossible to know the mind of of a despot before he knows it himself. One who expects everyone around him to serve him so absolutely, and to know what he wants, who, at the same time as he thinks everyone ought to see as he sees, is also convinced that he knows more than anyone else on earth,is the Master, Is alone in his superior understanding, has set himself up for guaranteed perpetual frustration. The two notions cannot be reconciled. You cannot be singularly above everyone and expect them to think in step with you. The two concepts are mutually antithetical. If you are the One, by definition, no one can be up there with you--if they are, you arent the top dog anymore! You have to knock that unwanted interloper back down beneath you--and then show them contempt for thinkng they could come up where you are.

Maharaji is using the same technique as any abusive husband or parent. He perpetually keeps the other off balance by treating them as if it is their fault, their inadequacy, their ineptitude, their error.

their only error, their only mistake, is in allowing themselves to be so abused, in staying with such a person, in staying in such a relationship. As long as they contiue to beleive they cannot survive outside the relationship, as long as they continue to believe terrible things will happen if they try to leave, it will continue. their only salvation is in reaching a point where staying induces a greater fear than abandoning it does.

and once out, they begin to find out that they can indeed handle life without the abuser. They come to realize that they don't have to serve anyone but themselves. That the sky will not fall upon them for acting on their own good sense, or for saying what they really feel, or doing what they really want to. They do not go crazy--they begin to discover sanity.

No--rather, it is the despot who often goes berserk, and sets out to bring back their victim, and if they cannot have them, will move to kill them, in desperate attempt to redeclare their former supremacy of position.

So all you naive, well meaning, wistful people, who are forever telling the world that 'I feel like i am just begginning to understand, for the first time', and that' I feel like such a child',--you need to realize that your are being held in thrall to an alcoholic, an abuser,and a pathological control freak who is quite potentially capable of hunting you down and killing you if you try to leave him.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 18:38:10 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Thanks Janet
Message:
There's nothing like a concentrated dose of bullshit to unravel the hate propaganda on this site for what it really is.
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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 10:36:54 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: So Mili, is Dettmers talking 'bullshit' too? READ!
Message:
I saw him drunk countless times in the privacy of his residence, at restaurants, and at parties. During these bouts of drunkenness, he became loud and critical about everything and everyone around him, often slurring invectives at premies who had been serving him selflessly and tirelessly for years. Although I was never treated this way, at least while I was in his presence, I witnessed the psychological damage and abuse he inflicted on others. It finally reached a point, just before I left, when I felt compelled to address my concerns about his drinking with him.

Straight answers, Mili:

Would you insist Michael Dettmers, too, is lying here?

If not, how happy are you with the above report of your Master's behaviour?


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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:04:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili's impotence is sad, sad, sad
Message:
You know how long Mili's been doing exactly this, Janet? It's amazing. He'll say 'bullshit' like a kid throwing his face into his hands. He can't properly discuss anything, the worm. Really, it's that bad.
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 19:10:12 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili's Sour Grapes
Message:

    I would not have you telling lies.
    You say I'm bad; I shall be so;
    So bad the world will think your cries
    of warning, if anything, too low.

    You are sad, mad macho poseurs:
    With genial spite, censorious should
    you spread self-righteous shabby slurs.
    You're good. At hate campaigns you're good.

    So on yer bike. Spare us your bile.
    We're not your bad reflection, no!
    Which of your friends says you not vile?
    None that know you. But I'll say so

    if simple truth you now admit.
    We're good at this. And you've screwed it.


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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 17:58:47 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I missed the public fights w/ Marilyn in Malibu
Message:
Restaurants, any more info?

was this f5 stuff or elsewhere?

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:30:39 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: And
Message:
His despair when she told him he would never see his kids again, if he went through with divorcing her

Tell me more.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:30:22 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: The Boss
Message:
Nice try, but no cigar. I'll try to make this simple because you're confused. Maharaji is the leader and it's his knowledge. He said he was the Lord and that knowledge is a cure for the mind's distubances.

Maharaji is not the Lord and his knowledge doesn't cure anything. He's a liar, and also a fraud for taking gifts on the basis that knowledge works and that he's the Lord.

Maharaji said that not a leaf shakes on a tree without his Grace and he demanded that premies surrender to him. The notion that somehow he can't even control his own organization is crazy.

Forget it, A.L.P., your brainwashing won't sail here. It doesn't have the slightest chance.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:12:47 (GMT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: A.L.P.
Subject: The Boss
Message:
Maharaji has a basic responsibility to see that his agya is carried out correctly, with the original intentions intact. He can't get away with blaming his premies for missing the point of his agya. He has to evaluate the results, and make the necessary corrections.

He is solely responsible for the outcome of his Mission.

Much of his agya is insane. No-one can carry it out, so they do the next best thing: spontaneously invent something approximate to it, that can be carried out. Then they do that, no matter how irrational; no matter who it hurts or how badly it hurts them.

Maharaji specifically gave satsang on serving the satguru at all cost, amplifying the insane intention -- to serve God Incarnate, directly -- already latent in people who are under his influence.

It is a distortion machine; Maharaji is the source of the insanity meme in his devotees. He has to constantly reinforce it. He has to constantly recruit new cult devotees to carry out his insane agya, no matter what the costs are to anyone but himself.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:26:44 (GMT)
From: A.L.P.
Email: None
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: The Boss
Message:
M has stepped inn so many, many times and changed things. Held so conferences and trainings to change things. He is always giving very clear direction about the way things are to be done.

The trouble is people have a hard time really listening and understanding. I am not disillusioned by M or K but I want very little to do with EV because I see a HUGE discrepancy between what he says and what EV does. And he is working to change that too.

But you have to realise that M is a teacher of conciousness and not a Boss who can just come in a fire people. I really do believe the areana of service, and EV comes inn to that arena, is where we can learn to apply that conciousness. And if the people involved are not applying conciousness but applying their own ambitions (as M. Dettmers readily admits he was doing) then what can he do.

He will let people have a pretty long rope and ultimately if it's not going right, they will hang themselves on their own rope. As Michael did.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 21:40:33 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: changing things
Message:

He'd better get a move on , 30 odd years is a significant portion of a lifetime.

Or maybe he should just give up on the scumbags he's had to work with all his life , & wait until his next incarnation to ' establish peace on this earth'.

Why are they 'applying their own ambition' , when they've all got , & are presumably practising , the Perfect Knowledge.

What I'm getting is : why does it work in the backwoods but not close to the action?


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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 22:17:59 (GMT)
From: PHD
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: The Boss
Message:
ALP,
Folk like you make my mind swirl. You make statements about EV and people like MD not responding to M's wishes and you turn around and put crap like that on this site. YOU think YOU are helping M by doing this!!!! You're nuts. It is also obvious that you have never had to interpret M's wishes so you have no idea what you are talking about. Please do every one a favour (premies and ex's)and go away.

PHD

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 09:37:13 (GMT)
From: A.L.P.
Email: None
To: PHD
Subject: The Boss
Message:
Wow .... sounds like I might have hit a nerve there!
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:42:27 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: Keep posting then.
Message:
A.L.P.:

It's also possible that PHD was giving you unsolicited, but good, advice. No exes find the slightest creditibilty in any of your cult-induced rationalizations. By making them so overtly you expose the logical weakness of a member's thinking processes, and bring yet more attention to the fraud that Maharaji propagates. I disagree with PHD. Keep posting.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 10:00:02 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: And that makes you feel good??
Message:
All those realizations and experience of THAT experience & gratitude to HIM and you get pleasure out of wounding people on their(this) site.

Very curious, so maybe all that love & compassion from experiencing THE answer means you're no different from the cynical rotting vegetables like me, curious again.

Why don't you fuck off to gm's site and have a good ole natter with the boy himself, oh what you can't, how can that be?? Oh of course I forgot he's so busy bringing world peace and saving the planet. Now since he's so sensitive to the flaws of EV and seeing how a lot of premies have nothing better to do with their lives than engage in the negativity & pointlessness of this site you'd think he'd at least set up somewhere for you all to head wank over him, oh but I forgot, he hasn't done it. It's all the premies fault isn't it, if he could rely on them not making the practice of his knowledge make them look such prats, full of baggage, he'd do it.
My god it's tough being the lord of the universe isn't it!!

Good to see so much compassion & love coming from you alp

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 20:06:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: Put your money where your mouth is
Message:
What you're saying is ridiculous. But if that's what you really think, that EV is some sort of renegade thing, why not email Maharaji and tell him that under your real name?

By the way, do you think EV is telling the truth in its Frequently Asked Questions when it says that Maharaji never claimed to be God? Yes or no?

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 22:50:46 (GMT)
From: A..L.P.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Reply
Message:
I have emailed M only a few times when I have felt a need to communicate with him in that way. But, when I need answers he is not the first one I run to. The first person I go to is myself.

He has already given me Knowledge by which to understand human nature, the human condition and life. I have my own wisdom and conciousness to know.

I only go to him when I have a question I cannot answer myself. Which is seldom.

My real name is Erica. I was Eric. I have just been having some fun with you all really. I've played with my identity but my words holds true, for me anyway. I am not a disillusioned one, altho I have lived thru a lot of the same history as many of you.

To tell you the honest truth, I have not even visited the EV site. I am not a 'group' member!

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:01:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: A..L.P.
Subject: Get lost, fluffy (nt)
Message:
ffffff
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:01:20 (GMT)
From: ulf
Email: None
To: A..L.P.
Subject: Reply
Message:
where do you live
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 22:58:39 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: A..L.P.
Subject: Erica
Message:
'Life is not a game and this knowledge is no joke.' You really are harming Maha's image and that of his premies by posting without thinking what you're saying. Even premies will realise that what you are saying just won't stand up at all.

I guess you are stuck in the intellectual wilderness that so many mindless followers get stranded in. If you are going to post please try and find some sincerity and don't play your little ego games with us. If this thing called knowledge is a real experience for you then speak from your heart from one human being to other human beings please.

Hal

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 15:13:09 (GMT)
From: The Dolphin
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Erica Just enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Don´t get stuck in anything.
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 23:19:31 (GMT)
From: Erica
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Apologies
Message:
Look, Hal, I'm sorry, man. O.K. It all started out as a bit of fun. I was just playing around on the internet and I decided to look you guys up.

But I have always spoken the truth ... albeit as it is for me. It's just been different for me. Even though I came in from around the same era, I feel differently about the past and I am enjoying the present. K and M have always had an evolving affect on my life.

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Date: Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 00:40:34 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Erica
Subject: Go away and stop wasting our time. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 02:48:02 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: Get stuffed, you idiot.
Message:
I do not see what your playing at, but whatever it is, shove it up your nose. Some people here care about what they say and do. your stupid game will not take you far, you moron.
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:57:48 (GMT)
From: The Dolphin
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Is this the best of you?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:54:12 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: I'll second Salam's 'Get Stuffed'....
Message:
You're in a cult, whoever you are. If you want to play games and manipulate, go elsewhere.

Your lack of integrity is stinking up this place, and is wasting our time. You are a mean person, just like your goomraji.

Go away.
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 15:04:14 (GMT)
From: The Dolphin
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: to do what it is liked to do is go o d.nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:09:29 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: The Dolphin
Subject: El Delphin you boofhead
Message:
What is your story? Erica is a pain in the ass and he/she knows is. I think you should get your bearing straight before you say anything.

Tell me are you a preime, an ex, a nothing or just a general mushroom? I haven't put a nail in your shoes because I reconed that your English is as bad as mine. But if you want I can do it. What do you thing, hey hermano??

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:15:40 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Also, didn't I tell you that NT means No Text.
Message:
Which means that you do not write text in this part. When are you going to learn you boofi?
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:04:28 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: Talk about denial dude! Astounding blinkers ! nt
Message:
fucking wake up duped one !
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 12:49:37 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Microsoft deletes Scientology (ot ?)
Message:
The following snippet appeared on page 17 of The Independent (a UK quality newspaper) today.

MICROSOFT HAS been forced to bow to German opponents of Scientology, and find a way of removing part of Windows 2000 that was written by a firm headed by a member of the cult. Germany takes a tough line against Scientology, claiming it exploits its members for profit.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 11:59:51 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Scientology and codewriting tragedy sidebar(OT)
Message:
there was a story in the l a weekly last decade about a computer genius whose parents were both Operating Thetans (OT's). He went to M I T at an early age--15 or something. Had an IQ and aptitude so staggeringly advanced no one could really understand him. He wrote some flabbergasting code for earthlink--which was/is owned by and run by guys who are scientology users--he was also a musical prodigy and was personally interested in combining comuters, math and music in some arcane way no one else was capable of thinking of. I can't recall his name.

anyway, because of the scientology atmosphere he was raised in, he had zero comprehension of emotion. his dorm mates at M I T noticed something seemed to be happenning with him that he couldnt talk about or share or articulate. They didn't know what to make of it. He was so far above them, they didn't know what he wanted or how to help him.

and one night he simply left the dorm, and crossed the campus, and climbed up the highest multi-story utility building, out in the center of the university--and sailed off, headfirst, into the pavement.

his mother displayed zero emotions when approached to speak to the writer about it.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 17:17:09 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: JohnT
Subject: Microsoft deletes Scientology (ot ?)
Message:
Luckily that will never happen to Elan Vital. The Big Weed did such a number on 'premie's' brains that they not one of them could probably subcontract computer code to Microsoft.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 08:03:41 (GMT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: be
Subject: Pot-Smoking Guru Maharaji Doll With Saliva Updesh
Message:
[ If I don't go to Hell for that making up that title, then I never will :) ]

That [Dettmers' Frampton Story of Maharaji smoking reefer with the premies and cranking up Peter Frampton tunes] wasn't the first time the subject of saliva has come up with the Potsmoking Master. He mentioned it in relationship to licking envelopes.

----

Peter Frampton had a significant role in bringing 'Almost Famous' to the silver screen.

Guru Marijuana Ji didn't.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 15:09:16 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: be
Subject: Cool web site links - OT -
Message:

  • Since installing HelixGNOME on my Linux desktop, I've come to appreciate Slashdot.Org:

    http://www.slashdot.org/

  • Ever wondered if kangaroos and rabbits are related? visit

    Tree of Life and examine the evolutionary relationships between living species (work in progress)

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 00:37:46 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: be
Subject: Et tu, Sant Ji?
Message:
If Rawat is just a humanitarian leader, then what is Shri Hans to Rawat, these days? He's [Rawat is] lying. He still worships Shri Maharaj Ji. Right?

When he speaks of Guru Maharaj Ji, he's speaking about himself in the third person, and of Shri Maharaj Ji -- at the same time. He's describing both entities.

He's lying and he's a coward for changing his story so many times. He's betrayed Shri Maharaj Ji.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 15:57:53 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: be
Subject: Clock Cloak Clique
Message:
A lot of times I seem to know exactly what time it is. Maharaji mentioned this ability at the Philadelphia Knowledge Re-Session circa 1992. He said something like 'You always know what time it is' in reference to a premie who gets the urge to peep at the clock during meditation (say, before work starts that day).

This was one of my vulnerabilities. One of those areas where there is some correlation between what he says and my own experience of things.

Where others gained a 'life is an illusion, so why bother?' perspective, I gained one that sees patterns in the white noise of living in a world of increasing rationality. The most rational explanation is (to me) that each individual 'generates' time and therefore, always knows what time it is. Intuitively, that just seems wrong, because of the tree falling in the forest problem ('Yes, it does, but not for you.')

I don't believe that time is generated by my consciousness - not in that way. Maybe that dimension is a lot more flat than it seems, and a fundamental function of human consciousness is to give the time dimension added lustre to make it seem more real, like 3-D glasses give stereograms their enhanced appearance.

My problem is one of engineering; the clock on the wall has a 'steady' time base; my assumption is that brain neurophysiology does not -- it has a good 'relative' base but not so much an absolute one.

Just musings -- not to be confused with good science.

And On Anand Ji

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 09:27:27 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Clock cloak clique
Message:
aOaji: Where others gained a 'life is an illusion, so why bother?' perspective, I gained one that sees patterns in the white noise of living in a world of increasing rationality. The most rational explanation is (to me) that each individual 'generates' time and therefore, always knows what time it is. Intuitively, that just seems wrong, because of the tree falling in the forest problem ('Yes, it does, but not for you.')

I don't believe that time is generated by my consciousness - not in that way. Maybe that dimension is a lot more flat than it seems, and a fundamental function of human consciousness is to give the time dimension added lustre to make it seem more real, like 3-D glasses give stereograms their enhanced appearance.

My problem is one of engineering; the clock on the wall has a 'steady' time base; my assumption is that brain neurophysiology does not -- it has a good 'relative' base but not so much an absolute one.

JohnT muses: It was one of Newton's assumptions that time moves like a great river, flowing everywhere and when with the same steady metronomic beat. Genius sometimes lies in chosing good axioms. In this case it enabled Newton to put to one side the astrological claim that the quality of time itself changes with different ages and epochs (so affecting our perceptions, reactions, and destinies).

As an assumption, it's still there at the heart of scientific thinking, generalised into the principle of symmetry -- that physical laws are everywhere and when the same, that is, physical laws are invariant under translation.

It's a good assumption - judge it by its fruits - and it's borne the test of time. But imagine that one is the only consciousness, the only thing, in a simple universe. The universal river of time has no meaning here, and brain physiology does not come to the rescue, for in such a universe brain physiology is just an idea, a concept, in the mind. Such a world admits no steady time base.

But introduce an Other and see how our Gedanke Experiment is transformed. The universal river of time, the steady time base, can be thought of sensibly once we can talk of things which are in one mind but not the other; in neither; or both. Newton's great river springs from the relationship between each mind and thier common contents, reality.

So yes, I can understand your intuition that in some way your consciousness generates time, but that it is the relationship between minds that somehow gives time added lustre, that gives it body and makes it real. We are not alone.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 14:31:29 (GMT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: JohnT
Subject: Clock cloak clique
Message:
That's great. Thanks for that, JohnT. Excellent post!
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 15:01:20 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: Pot-Smoking Guru Maharaji Doll With Saliva Updesh
Message:
1. What's an updesh?

2. Are you in hell? If so, what's it like.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 15:50:17 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Updesh: is a special dish made especially
Message:
for a guru by his devotees.

Some devotees go and collect all the cow ding. They then go in a sheltered place like a bush or something and have a wonk on the dung. Afterward they take it and bake in an oven of moderate heat. When it is ready they sprinkle icing sugar over it and serve it to their guru.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 17:06:11 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Salam
Subject: Updesh: is a special dish made especially
Message:
Ummmmm. Sounds yummy.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 15:41:33 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Pot-Smoking Guru Maharaji Doll With Saliva Updesh
Message:
1. Initiation into Knowledge. It was mentioned in the Radasoami (sp?) stuph that Jean-Michel's been reposting.

2. No, but the day is not over yet.

# # #

Chris
aka a0aji

p.s. There is no direct translation of my title into anything that makes strict sense. However, my experience with my own inner thought process suggests that the correct way to read it is to see the evolving associations, more or less from left to right. It is sort of a summary of my thoughts engendered on this forum, as of late. I had the bit about Frampton to post (saw Almost Famous last night at the cheap-seats theatre) and the rest was crafted around that. Couldn't find an extant thread that fit the Frampton motif. Ergo my message, above.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 16:58:49 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: sequint@home.com
To: a0aji
Subject: Pot-Smoking Guru Maharaji Doll With Saliva Updesh
Message:
I don't know Peter Frampton's work. Is he like Barry Manilow?

Steve

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 01:44:58 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Frampton
Message:
Hardly. He's one of the greatest all-time rock guitarists. He's best known for his 'Frampton Comes Alive' album. I can just picture Maharaji bouncing to 'Do You Feel Like We Do?', one of the most rousing live performaces ever recorded. If you're into classic rock, check it out. It's one of the best. It came out in 1975, but it hardly sounds dated at all. Maharaji has good tastes.
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 08:20:22 (GMT)
From: a0aji
Email: get_thee_to@a_nunnery.com
To: be
Subject: Pot-Smoking Guru Maharaji Doll With Saliva Updesh
Message:
more links

Letter to Yingling (first mention of Frampton?)

guru mysaliva

These zero in a bit more sharply.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 15:36:39 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Updesh......
Message:
Let's just say it's the Hindu version of 'satellite feed.'

Got Updesh???

:::)))))

Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 06:01:05 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jim : Care to explain
Message:
In a thread below with Steven regarding hyperbole you said

I think a case could well be made that Maharaji should have known that his anti-mind campaign could have triggered such catastrophes.

Could he be charge with neglegence for not taking the proper precaution to prevent such happenings?

Do think that you can expound on this. If such a case is possible, will he have to appear in court? Will the case be local, i.e. country specific, or can it be en mass, seeing that EV has branches in over 50 countries. In your professional opinion, what is stopping us from suing him?

thank you

Salam

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 19:01:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Jim : Care to explain
Message:
I might say I think m's guilty of criminal negligence but I can't imagine him ever being charged. That is, I've never heard of any modern state prosecuting a religious leader for the consequences their hellfire and damnation fear-mongering might have on their followers. There's no point even dwelling on it. It just ain't going to happen. Not anywhere I know of in any event.
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 09:10:43 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's it?
Message:
Have you heared of anybody being prosecuted for the consequences their words had caused injury on anyone regardless of who they were?
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 22:30:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam, it AIN'T gonna happen
Message:
Sorry, man, criminal prosecution of a false reli8gious leader for his bullshit teachings about love, light and mindlessness is not going to happen. Not in any western country I'm aware of anyway.

Can you think of a single case to the contrary? I can't. You know, I'm not saying that's the way I think the world should operate. But that's the way it does.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:48:55 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Man, do you have to shout so loud?
Message:
GOT YOU.
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 06:13:14 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I know you are addressing Jim but
Message:
I am online and can say that his message hurt me in many ways.

My entire 20's and most of my 30's were always a struggle with my desire to take care of my family , get ahead in my career -
vs. the inner dialog always going on and on and reinforced by his 'presentations' whether live or video. The explicit and implicit message was to ignore all ambitions and attachments to relationships, and to pay attention to one thing and one thing only.
even though I ignored it and struggled and took care of my family and got ahead in my career that inner struggle was a constant companion.

Thanks for nothing M. Do you think his loophole would be as usual? He only teaches meditation. A way to relax and enjoy life. The rest is up to us. yeah right. We were there we know better.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 12:04:41 (GMT)
From: Lurking Poster
Email: None
To: Selene and Salam
Subject: Copying Selene re question to Jim (from below)
Message:
For some householders, me included, the emotional and physical abuse I accepted from my partner was my punishment for having desires or goals that were at odds with the overall purpose of life, which was to allow one of us (usually him) to get to the programs and be involved with the mission.

I was beaten when I started to assert that some of the normal objectives of raising a family should be our objective too.

By this I mean regular meals and living in one place rather that changing houses because the finances were bad.

Regular schooling for the kids-Decent meals so we all didnt get run down. Doctor visits- a car that ran.
.
These were diversions for my partner- who had sacrificed ashram life to do his duty to be with the family-providing for us was asking too much . He resented the idea and we all suffered- the effects on my adult children are still evident to me.

In a sick way I suspected that my partner was right and I was wrong. This went on for many years.His job/income pivotted on working for the mission and its goal

I left the relationship - no child support for my boys-ever.

LP

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:33:21 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Lurking Poster
Subject: most of us didn't have normal relationships
Message:
We were half nuts, trying to understand something that makes no sense at all; to be parents and yet have the message constatly reinforced by peers and those 'better than us' - that the only thing that mattered in life was Knowledge and the great Guru. And everything else was not real, impermanant, unimportant.

I have no use for him and all the PAM's from those years who reinforced that message. If they can admit it was wrong that is different. But M is not doing that, he is just changing the surface image and the cover jacket of the story.

My first (then husband) and I resented each other. I resented the freedom he took to go off and do stage service, a very enviable and prestigious service to do. And he resented me insisting on him paying attention to the kids and house stuff. There was a LOT of verbal abuse on both our parts, we were living under impossible conditions mentally emotionally and physically.

He was physically abusive a few times but amazingly enough did give me child support while I went back to school.

The whole mess is so sad. I hope yours and ALL the kids from those days made it through ok. Mine are amazingly warm intelligent creative beings with very little anger and good memories of those days. But they have their problems too.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:20:13 (GMT)
From: A.L.P.
Email: None
To: Lurking Poster
Subject: Child Support
Message:
I never received child support either. And I had 2 kids from two different guys. And I went through some pretty tough times. Being left 6 months pregnant while the first father ran off chasing his dreams and then being left with 2 children when the 2nd father would empty out the bank account and run after M on a tour, etc.

But you know what. I never blamed M for that. In fact Knowledge was the one thing that I had that I could rely on to always fill me up at the end of one long exhausting day after another. I would think how am I ever going to get up tomorrow and do this all over again. I would sit down and practicse and somehow I would be filled up and revitablised again.

So instead of blaming M for the lack of conciousness in the two men in my life, I thanked him for giving me something that could sustain me even under such horrendous circumstances.

People behave ignorantly, whether they have K or not. It is totally unrealistic to think that just because a person has received K they will behave in a responsible and enlightened manner. This is a mjor assumption on our part. If a person is not willing to practice and grow and learn and realise the image in the mirror is themselves, Knowledge will not work.

Knowledge is not a magiv pill that once taken ensures enlightenment and the ability to respond. That is up to us. In fact I have seen many, many people use M and Knowledge to hide behind, to escape from their responsiblities. And this cannot be laid at M's door.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 19:06:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: That sure is a perverse perspective
Message:
The only reason any of that happened was because the men in your life were stuck in a Hindu phony God-man personality cult. Regular people don't do what your guys do. Anyone outside of your cult would be able to see that too. It's so, so very obvious.
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 09:45:13 (GMT)
From: Erica
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh yeah?
Message:
Jim, the first person who told me about this site was my ex-husband. He had radically changed from someone who avoided his responsibilities in life to constantly run after M externally (darshan freaks, remember?)to someone who thought M was a fraud and had really fucked up with his lifestyle.

He still refused to pay child support. This time his excuse was he didn't want to subsidise someone involved with K.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 22:35:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Erica
Subject: So? What's your point?
Message:
You're saying that the guy now has another excuse. So what? The first excuse you told us about was a bad one. Now he's got another. But my point's still valid. The guys in your life were trained in a culture of irresponsibility that being the cult in which you've wasted years of your own life.
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 18:46:55 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: A.L.P.
Subject: what?
Message:
You say:
So instead of blaming M for the lack of conciousness in the two men in my life, I thanked him for giving me something that could sustain me even under such horrendous circumstances.

They weren't chasing after Jerry Garcia when they emptied the bank accounts and ran off. You have an interesting way of justifying this issue. It's a variation on one I see here often, blame the premies not M. He isn't the one in his mind after all. He has some higher conciousness.
As for Knowledge, it is some meditation techniques anyone can learn and do and M's spin is to take them and put a mystique and personality cult around them.

If it has helped us get through horrible times it's because the times WERE horrible when spent worshiping a fake god and running all over the country broke tired and confused.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 20:15:45 (GMT)
From: Lurking Poster
Email: None
To: APL
Subject: .He was chasing glory and saving the world
Message:
but who was offering it?
You were encased in a cult that seduced your husband from home and left you home to meditate to get perspective.
There has to be a therapist word for that.
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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 12:16:50 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Lurking Poster
Subject: the word is abandonment(nt)
Message:
asdfghjkl;
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 16:31:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Anyone else subscribe to the EV newsletter?
Message:
Here's an excerpt from today's Shri Hans / Hans Jayanti special:

Born on 8 November 1900 in a small village high in the foothills of the Himalayas, in northern India, Shri Maharaji was the son of a farmer. Sadly, he lost his mother at the age of eight and was brought up by an aunt.

It was in 1925, when visiting the busy metropolis of Lahore – there was not then a separation between Pakistan and India – that he met Shri Sarupanand Ji, who was to become his master, and received Knowledge from him. Speaking in Boston earlier this year, Maharaji provided some insight into what happened:

'My father searched and searched. He read the Gita, and so many things. He would travel and visit many places in his search. But the more he read, the less sense it made. It just pounded more questions, more confusion, into his head. Then, he met his master, and his master gave him Knowledge, and then it all started making sense.'

Within a short time he had dedicated his life to helping Shri Sarupanand with his work, and was nominated by him to continue teaching Knowledge after his death in 1936. Starting with little, he traveled and taught continuously from that time. By the time he passed away, some thirty years later, he had built up a huge following of students from every walk of life throughout northern India. But he had already indicated that his youngest son would be the one who would one day take Knowledge out of India and into the wider world.

Not many are now left who were around this charismatic and deeply-loved personality at that time, but Maharaji constantly acknowledges his debt to a father who not only gave him Knowledge, but laid the foundations for the work that followed. When he was only thirteen, Maharaji said, 'If I took all the birds, the sun, moon and everything that exists in trying to repay my father what I owe him, I wouldn’t even be able to pay a single pennyworth.'

JM? Patrick? Is that part underlined correct as far as you know? I thought Shri Hans was an unofficial, breakaway kind of guy.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 12:28:45 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Conflict of Ideologies.
Message:
Hi Jim,

I've been getting the newsletter too, but have stopped reading it already. It's like finding a sickly religious tract in my mailbox every few days. I might as well get one from the Jehovah's witnesses too.

I digress.

I have been aware of a contradiction within the cult for sometime, and this newsletter highlights it.

Lots of premies, and ex-premies, are saying, because of the FAQs, that all this 'Guru Maharaji' 'Lord' 'Perfect Master' stuff belongs to the past. Maharaji is not pushing himself as this now. He's just a teacher.'

This is the 'Guru gets down from throne' camp. But there is another camp. The camp of the devotee. The devotee knows all this labelling is bullshit. They know Maharaji is the indescribable creator walking in a human body- call him what you like. They know that devotion is the key to liberation. It's spelled out in the Bhagavad Gita. They live and breath to love and serve their Lord.

As far as I know, Maharaji has never stopped being this Lord and Perfect Master since he was planted on the throne when he was eight.

His personal website shows the 'Perfect Master' lineage- with himself wearing the papermache crown at the present time.

This stuff in the newletter is also classic 'Perfect Master' lineage bollocks, and that final quote is telling us how Maharaji is the perfect devotee, and we should strive to love our Maharaji the same way he loves his. Ie- we should see him the same way.

So- all this recent rationalisation of the past is just a smokescreen.

Because Jim- he really believes he is the Living Perfect Master, who you couldn't repay a pennyworth of what he gave you- even if you gave him the whole universe.

And this is what the hardcore premies believe too.

All else is PR.

Anth- about to unplug his pc, put it in a van and drive to Holland.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 23:18:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Yes, Anth, that's it exactly
Message:
Isn't it sad that we fall to stating the obvious so much here? It's amazing that he could try to play it both ways as blatantly as he does. You've described it just right. Amazing.

Hotfra dammen! (phonetic from about thirty years ago!)

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 03:28:51 (GMT)
From: Patrick to Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Anyone else subscribe to the EV newsletter?
Message:
Jim,
you have a reasonably good brain I assume.

Now I know you find it difficult enough to stomache wading through the turgid hagiography of Indian Gurus, but would you once do me a favour and please read carefully..and inwardly digest, taking as much interest as you can muster, what I have written in my separate post about this matter.

Frankly I am wearied of repeatedly having to explain what facts are so far known about this little' inconsistency' and would value that someone as energetic as yourself could be armed with the same understanding as myself, so that I can leave it to you to argue on my 'tired' behalf.

I have often said that this seemingly small inconsistency has been to me of some larger signifigance, in that it lends doubt to Maharaji's fundamental claim that there is an unbroken Master lineage.

Although the true historical facts are obscured and possibly forever lost thanks to the various and contradictory spins of the biased 'biographers' of the 2 disputing groups (DLM and Advait Mat) no one can dispute that this book strongly suggests that...

the majority of Sarupanands followers did not recognise (nor were possibly even aware of) Shri Hans' claim to being the 3rd Master.

I believe that studying the historical context of these groups from which Maharaji has clearly derived influence has really helped me to understand why it is so unlikely that his Mastership is something that is actually so remarkable as to qualify as being an unique, extraordinary or even 'Divine' event.

Maharaji would no doubt prefer to remind us that The Master needs no such wordly pedigree, but is it not strange then that all these influences were there in bucket-loads, as can be seen by reading the literature of the time? Also he as much as admits to having had this influence but seems also to be awfully keen to assert that his influences wern't of any influence!

This tends to suggest that, although he wants us to share his reverence for his father, he feels such an urgent need to assert his own 'individual' autonomy that he will even disown these very influences to which he arguably owes his success.

My question is: If a Master is so self-made and is so independent of wordly influence, how come he dislpays every sign of faithfully doing exactly what one would expect of someone who grew up with his circumstances - even making fairly predictable mistakes.

Michael Dettmers drew attention to the fact that Maharaji is unique, not so much for his 'inherent' ability to teach Knowledge but for the extraordinarily unique circumstances of his youth that undoubtedly adequately explain why he has displayed such confidence in his Satguru role from then on.

'Occams Razor' says that if there is strong evidence that suggests that something has happened for a particular reason , then it probably did.

Therefore since there are so many circumstances that simply explain why Maharaji has been able to impress and attract so much 'belief' in him, in all probability it would seem that Maharaji's uniqueness is largely a product of his unique circumstances and considerable influences. Not, as he seems to believe and promote, because he has some special power(s) that are not standard for other humans nor indeed that 'his' knowledge is unique.

It seems to me that the only thing that suggests that his knowledge is 'his' or in any way 'unique' to him is that he (and of course his followers) say so.

Clearly most of the other things he has achieved (pilot, watch collector, inventor, musician, family man etc) are learned in the same manner as the rest of us and are not special gifts in any extraordinary sense.

The other circumstances that complete the equation are that there are plenty of people who are eager to feel that they are a part of something so unique and special as the Perfect Master/ Devotee relationship. As we have seen, there is also a clear factor of intimidation (notwithstanding people's fear of God/The Unknown).
Maharaji has enormous confidence that he embodies the latter and his willingness to sternly admonish his followers, often to the point of intimidation, reinforce the impression that he is a figure of authority to be obeyed and trusted.

I cannot help think that there are enough factors to account for Maharaji's success and effect without any esoteric explanations such as attributing him as having 'special Grace' etc.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 19:14:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Patrick to Jim
Subject: Okay, I will. And you make an excellent point
Message:
Yeah, I'll try to get it down. But meanwhile you make an excellent point that Maharaji is doing just what one might expect of one born into his circusmtances. That one doesn't need any mystical spiritual factor in the equation to get something just like him. He's an obvious product of his environment.
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 02:40:39 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sir Swaroop........
Message:
.....was given a Knighthood in the 1930's for his efforts.

He inspired thousands of people to build a city on squatted land , at a time when agitation for Independence was a big worry for the government.

They loved that of course , better to have would be rioters
knackered & in bed at dusk than out on the streets.

So they arranged for the guy to keep the land & gave him a medal.

I'm not knocking that , it was a sweet deal for government , which at bottom is about maintaining public safety.

They used to call guys like Swaroop , 'God-Wallahs'.

I'll just bet that their grandchildren in government saw Barry Bollix Shwar as just the man to draw the sting of the 'we want the world & we want it now' generation.

Last time I was at an event in Brighton , & times before that , I've never seen a single cop outside the venue.

Hundreds of blissed out premies exiting , jumping about in the road ( major thoroughfare ) , blocking the pavements etc.

Never a sight of the boys in blue.

They know who's trouble & who ain't.

They don't give too much of a fuck about ' delusionals' like me , & frankly they're probably right.

Thing is , Barry here is 'spin-doctoring' the fucking actuality.

Whatever his old man's relationship with Sir Swaroop , how many miles of irrigation did Shri Hans dig , in the construction of the divine city?

How many bricks did he lay?

Not one I'll bet.

Who gives a fuck.

No one : build a lie on a lie & soon you get a bright shiny facade.

Shortly after I got Knowledge I had a conversation with an old guy who had been a regular soldier in India in the late 20's early 30's.

I was full of the spiel of course , & he was interested in talking about stuff that everyone else thought was from the stone age , so we got on for a bit.

I told him how amazing gmj was & all that.

He told me how he'd gone out one night , with 3 mates , against orders , to a local religious shindig.

Apart from bayonets they were unarmed.

The chief guru at the celebration took the bayonet from him & after much play & piss taking , stuck it several times through his own body , & gave it back.

I got all worked up about that , on the lines of ,'hey man India' , you know , fantastic things can happen in the land where God chooses to land etc.

He said , ' they're all fucking chancers , thank Christ I don't have to work out how to stick a knife into myself to make a living'.

I wrote him off as a potential aspirant.

Hans & Barry turned it round. Don't stick a knife in yourself , stick it in someone else.


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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 03:47:22 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Sir Swaroop........
Message:
I trust you realise that the 'Swarupanand' about whom you say:

.....was given a Knighthood in the 1930's for his efforts.
He inspired thousands of people to build a city on squatted land , at a time when agitation for Independence was a big worry for the government.
They loved that of course , better to have would be rioters
knackered & in bed at dusk than out on the streets.
So they arranged for the guy to keep the land & gave him a medal.

is not the one that we are talking about and who Maharaji has a picture of on his website and who we are all discussing as the one who Shri Hans' succeeded.

This other Swarupanand (or Anand Swarup) of yours (who indeed was knighted by the British and built a city etc.) apparently lived from 1913-1937 and was succeeded by Gurdas Ram, and was in the Agra Branch of the Radhasoami movement. As far as I can see the only connection with that tradition and Shri Hans is the general similarities of practices and the possibility that Shri Hans was initiated by another Radhasoami Guru (from their Beas branch) Sawan Singh (1903-1948) -

Shri Hans later met the Sarupanand of the Advait Mat group in Guna I heard, and was his follower.

That is my understanding for what it's worth. But hey - you seem keen to believe that it was this other guy -all I can say is that's contrary to my understanding of the matter.
Good God it's 4 in the morning-I'm off to bed.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 14:07:42 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Sir Swaroop........
Message:

I always thought they were the same person with just a variation in the spelling.

I accept you're right though.

I still stand by my general point though , that the powers that be look benignly on anyone who can pacify potential troublemakers.

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Date: Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 16:29:33 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Sir Swaroop........
Message:
Bin:

I still stand by my general point though , that the powers that be look benignly on anyone who can pacify potential troublemakers.

Well, the Romans, Soviets, and Chinese weren't too keen on messianic groups so you'd have to also concede that the Brits and Americans have been cleverer and/or more benign.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 01:50:40 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sarupanand's biographer has spoken about this...
Message:
Sarupanand was a master in the 'Advait Mat' movement in Guna, India. In their literature he is rather confusingly referred to usually as the '2nd Master' and his chosen successor 'Vairaganand' is often referred to as the '3rd Master'. Their first master is mentioned also on Maharaji's website - was it Dayal Ji? I can't remember.

Anyway, sufficit to say that Maharaji himself states clearly on his 'Masters' webpage (www.maharaji.com) that his father Shri Hans was the next-in-line in this lineage and then of course he himself.

NB. My understanding is that he same-named 'Swarupanand' of the distinct 'Radhasoami' Tradition, operating at roughly the period in the 1930's, was not the one whom Shri Hans is said to have met. The one from this different Advait Mat group in Guna below was apparently Shri Hans' Guru. (This is clear from both what Maharaji claims on his website and the early DLM literature which mentions the dispute over succession with Vairaganand)

Below is the relevant extract from the Advait Mat group's hagiographic book where the biographer relates (whether it is misrepresentitive is anyone's guess) the moment when Sarupanand announces who is to be his successor. Clearly this is not Shri Hans.

Actually I have read all of the part of this book (called 'Paramhans Advait Mat' ) which describes the life and works of Sarupanand (Scott Talkington got this rare book from the Library and kindly sent a photo copy of a large portion of it to me -since I was interesed to see if Shri Hans was mentioned). Jean Michel has also put a transcript of it on his site. I would actually be quite interested to read the earlier part of the book if anyone can find it.(about Dayal - their 'first' Master)

I personally could not find any mention of Shri Hans although many dozens of his Mahatmas are indicated by name. Clearly what the author says conflicts with what Maharaji and premies continue to claim happened. I think we know that early DLM and obviously now, Maharaji believe that this book is an example of revisionism by the Advait Mat Group in their attempt to prove Vairaganand's authenticity.

Early DLM 'biographers' of Shri Hans wrote that Vairaganand was a 'scoundrel' who had highjacked Sarupanands mission and words to the effect that - Shri Hans was the real Master who was not interested in such wordly matters (ie the assets of the Advait Mat group) but only in spreading the Truth.

Here is the extract: (remember Sarupanand is referred to as the '2nd Master' and Vairaganand the '3rd Master')


p244
Thus, the Master continued to address the congregation of the Sadhus, as time warranted, sometimes alone and sometimes in the midst of devotees. In the end, before that assembly dispersed, the Master started revealing deep secrets of spiritualism to a few Mahatmas privately. First of all, He called Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji Maharaj (The Third Master), Mahatma Satgur Sewa Anand Ji, Mahatma Santosh Anand Ji and Mahatma Gur Darshan Anand Ji. and observed, - From now onward, I may or may not give Darshan to you. I will do what I wish. The work of spiritual propagation has expanded. I wish to appoint one of You as a chief All will have to abide by what he says. Now who should be the chief out of you four?' Pointing towards Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji Maharaj, the Third Master, all of them requested, -Oh Lord! He will be our chief.' The Second Master observed, 'I also wish the same. He shall be your chief. He will sit on the 'Palang' (Guru's cot) and will issue orders. All of you will have to act accordingly.' All bowed to the Master's orders and said, -Oh Lord! We accept Your orders most respectfully.'

The Second Master again took the hand of Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji Maharaj in His own hands in the presence of all of them and observed, -'Very well, He shall be your chief. Do you all agree to it?' All bowed to denote their acceptance. Thus He gave all these orders secretly and none knew anything about it outside.
On 5th October. 1935 A. D., a week before the ending of that congregation, He disclosed that secret in the presence of all the Mahatmas. At 4. 00 P. M. the Master had thrown open His Darshan in the inner courtyard (Haveli). He made observations in the presence of all, ,Now I wish to live in loneliness and have grown old also. I wish to appoint someone from amongst you, as your chief, who will be acceptable to you all.

p245

Tell Me, as to who should be that chief ?' Then, calling Mahatma Satgur Sewa Anand Ji, asked him, as to who should be the chief? At that time, Mahatma Satgur Sewa Anand Ji said with folded hands, '0h, Lord, He (Pointing towards the Third Master) should be the Chief.' Then He observed in the presence of all the Mahatmas, Very well, very well. This is My wish also. He should be your chief. All of you shall have to abide by His orders. Those Mahatmas who are ready to abide by His orders, should raise their hands.' All the Mahatmas raised their hands. Then He asked them to lower their hands and after repeating this three or four times He observed. His orders shall be acceptable to you all. He only shall sit on the Palang' (throne) and issue orders and all of you shall have to obey that fully and in every way.' He again ordered, Allof you gird up your loins and say that you agree to it.' All of them girded up their loins and He Himself taking the hand of the Third Master in His left hand, said, Heis a great Gurumukh. He has served Me very faithfully. I am much pleased with Him.'

The Second Master continued to teach the secrets of Bhakti and Divine knowledge to the congregation of the Mahatmas, who stayed there for four and a half months under His instructions. Thereafter He permitted every Mahatma to go to his Ashrama. On 13th October, 1935 A. D_ the Master left for Delhi. He stayed at Delhi for ten to twelve days and then moved to Nangli for similar duration. He repeated this programme two to four times. Then he called the Third Master at Delhi and told Him, Now I have to go from here.' The Third Master requested, 'Lord! Continue for some time more.' The Master replied, I have changed My programme twice or thrice at your request. Now I wish to go. Do not oblige Me to change this time.' At this, the Third

p246

Master kept quiet. The Second Master then started conveying the deep and significant imports of spiritualism. On 26th Magh, 1993, B. K. or 7th. February, 1939, A. D_ the Second Master told the Third Master, 'Shri Anandpur, in Gwalior State, is the main centre of spiritualism. It is My order that the chaks, which have been purchased, must be inhabited. All the Bais and the Mahatmas will serve you.*' The Third Master bowed and assured the Second Master full compliance of His orders.

A few days later, the Second Master again spoke to the Third Master, 'Now it is not only the responsibility of the Satsanga in Sind, which rests on your shoulders, but of the whole world. You are a lion. Roar like a lion. I am happy with you.' Having said so, the Second Master embraced His own image, Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji. The Two Divine powers became one. In what words should be described the scene of that time? It is difficult to say whether that Should he characterised as the union of day and night or the confluence of the Ganges and the Yamuna or the union of the Sun-flower and sun. It was such a strange scene:
Two Divine powers became one. A strange scene was witnessed. The tradition of love smiled. Whom should we see? Oneness was seen in the union of two appearances.

p247

God made the two appearances visible as one. There was no difference between the two it all. No duality remained there.
Then the Second Master, having conveyed to His most devoted disciple, what He wanted to convey, asked Him to go to Chakauri and the Third Master accordingly proceeded from. Delhi to Chakauri...

and so on and so forth..

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 05:22:52 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: Any discussion of 'guru' lineage ...
Message:
Any discussion of 'guru' lineage ...to me smacks of adherence to the key 'cult' concept - that of the guru/master/godlink.
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 10:02:50 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Any discussion of 'guru' lineage ...
Message:
Any discussion of 'guru' lineage ...to me smacks of adherence to the key 'cult' concept - that of the guru/master/godlink.

You don't seriously think that by merely discussing any such things, especially in a deconstructional way as I have done, that I am endorsing those concepts. That is plainly ridiculous.

You might as well say that discussing Flying Saucers means you must believe in them. Give me a break-please.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 13:13:52 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Apologies Patrick ...
Message:
I was reacting to something else last night and it boiled down to precisely the point you raised. I really do sincerely apologize.
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 10:04:00 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: sorry - I keep typing Anon from habit! (nt)
Message:
vcbncvbn
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 11:55:08 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: When did you reincarnate from Anon to Patrick? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 00:13:28 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Darshan and prasad from bole ji now available!
Message:
I noticed on satpal's web site that bole ji is now giving darshan and prasad as well!

Also, satpal is going to mauritius, just like m...

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 03:51:46 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Let's kiss the lotus feet again--Bhole Shri ...
Message:
Satguru Dev Maharaj Ki Jai
Hunsa bunsa, ki jai.
Bhole Ji, ki jai.

Whose feet will give you the best buzz? Can't you just picture the guru competition in Mauritius? So, which brand of foot would you like to kiss and suck on today--Prem Pal's or Sat Pal's?

How is it that we were so gullible and self-effacing as to drink their bathwater, eat their leftovers and kiss their holy lotus feet? How dumb we were.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 05:18:32 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: naive is the word I just got labeled with
Message:
It's as good a word as any:
from Webster:
marked by or showing unaffected simplicity and lack of guile
or worldly experience; 'a teenager's naive ignorance of life'; 'the naive assumption that things can only get better

There is some good in that I think. I don't want to lose all hope that things can improve and that we can have a good life.
We were young.

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 16:09:24 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Tell it to Tony Blair!
Message:
When he got elected, the song played at the post-election parties (and broadcast on most TV channels) that night was 'Things can only get better ...'

As a theme-tune, it seemed very appropriate at the time, ... but you can only sing it so long ...

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 18:26:25 (GMT)
From: John K
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Anyone else subscribe to the EV newsletter?
Message:
are u saying this is a current ev newsletter or something that came out years ago?

can you get the oldest brother's version (old bal bagwanji) of how the torch got passed in 1966?

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:58:57 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sarupanand's disputed successor
Message:
Check here Sarupanand's disputed succession

and read the early DLM's version, quite different:

As a disciple, Maharaj Ji was the example of total surrender. His life was austere and simple, his whole being was bent upon truth and all lesser concerns melted and disappeared before his eyes. His Guru said of him, 'I am in Hans' heart, and 'Hans' is in my heart ' The differences between Guru and disciple dissolved into basic oneness. Maharaj Ji lost his personal ego and became one with his Guru, attaining supreme cosmic consciousness.

Later, a very close disciple of Maharaj Ji disclosed the following incident. Once, all the disciples of Dada Guru were sitting together in the presence of their master. The Dada Guru lifted Shri Maharaj Ji's hand and declared to his disciples that they should follow 'Hans' after his death. The story had an ironic ending. A small group dominated by one Varaganand disobeyed their Master and after his death declined to follow Shri Maharaj Ji. Varaganand claimed the property of his late Guru and set himself up as Guru in his own right. Shri Hans Ji Maharaj was not attracted to the perishable wealth of this world, having already been bestowed with the divine property of Ram Nam. So, according to the commandment of his Master, he started propagating the Holy Name.

Check also More on Vairaganand

It may not seem so surprising therefore that the 'Advait Mat' book does not anywhere mention Shri Hans Ji , even though he is claimed by some to have been the successor to Sarupanand. The book clearly paints a different version of events, whereby Sarupanand is described as appointing a disciple named 'Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji Maharaj' as his successor (see pages 244-247 of the book).

Hans was clearly a adept of SantMat, but didn't follow his group's rules ....... Nothing new !!!

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 23:12:28 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Shri Hans changed his position, no?
Message:
I seem to remember reading somewhere that he originally set up his org so that different gurus could all share their unique takes on life, the universe and everything, like a democratic guru centre, that he nicked a lot of their ideas and went completely solo?

Then over time changed his position til he was calling himself perfect master?

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 21:36:25 (GMT)
From: Swami Viagra
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Sarupanand's disputed successor
Message:
No one comes except by me. :)
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:36:39 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Interesting choice of quotes
Message:
In this newsletter, Elan Vital seems to be forgetting to mention that Sarupanand's followers accepted Varaganand as the new guru and Shri Hans broke away to establish his own following.

Besides that omission, it is also interesting to note what quotes by Shri Hans that Elan Vital has now chosen for the newsletter:

'You may live a peaceful life in the worlds of mind, body and spirit, but without the Guru you will never receive perfect knowledge.'

'Guru is he who takes us from the temporal to the eternal, who introduces us to Truth, and who thereby removes the darkness of our ignorance.'

Elan Vital has spent years distancing themselves from this type of quotation. They could have easily commemorated Hans Jayanti 2000 with less dramatic quotes, so perhaps we are seeing the beginning of a new, more guru-devoting period for this cult??

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 16:57:30 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Anyone else subscribe to the EV newsletter?
Message:
'It was in 1925, when visiting the busy metropolis of Lahore – there was not then a separation between Pakistan and India – that he met Shri Sarupanand Ji, who was to become his master,...'

According to early publications and m, hans was drowning in a river when a big hand fished him out onto the ricer bank where he met his master.

Hans was nominated by himself.

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 16:51:16 (GMT)
From: John K.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Anyone else subscribe to the EV newsletter?
Message:
can you get us the oldest brother's (he once known as bal bagwan ji) version of the story of the passing of the torch from shri hans in 1966?
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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 17:54:42 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: John K.
Subject: Anyone else subscribe to the EV newsletter?
Message:
Bal Bhagwan, now known as Satpal, (as opposed to Prem Pal?) has his own website at: http://www.manavdharam.org/index.html
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 12:17:12 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: think i'll send this to little brother
Message:
now here's something you'll never see prempal do!
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 12:23:56 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: everybody esp the hamster
Subject: he'd never do this either
Message:
remember the World Welfare Association?
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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 14:09:23 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Do what?
Message:
Hi Janet

Could you post the actual address of those two links? They don't seem to work on my browser.

Thanks

Chris

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Date: Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 12:43:55 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Spot the dummies.
Message:
http://www.manavdharam.org/news/bday_ssjm.html

p.s. janet; did you check your links, the appear not to work?

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 20:28:39 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: How do you subscribe?
Message:
I just took a look at the newletter and I'll tell ya, it looks like they are using Hans Jayanti as a platform for some new propagation, including the devotional shit. It's not very subtle, either, IMO.

But...how did you subscribe?

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 22:59:32 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: It's on EV's web site..nt
Message:
nt
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