Brian -:- Forum archives updated -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 13:33:14 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Forum archives search engine -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 14:17:16 (GMT)

__ __ Brian -:- And now it works again -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 14:00:58 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- And a very nice birthday surprise for Maharaji!!! -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:57:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- What a wonderful idea! -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 05:03:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- blue mountain has painfully honest cards -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:23:10 (GMT)

AJW -:- Are you in a Cult? Try this Quiz and find out. -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:01:48 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- I'm completely F88ked -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 22:11:36 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Not F88ked -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 00:57:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ Ulf -:- Not F88ked (going going gone ) -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 21:33:53 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- Are you in a Cult? Try this Quiz and find out. -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 14:22:52 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- The path of Hedonism is hard. -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 15:19:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- Qizz result -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:13:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Quiz result -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:30:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Ex-chela? -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:23:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Ex-chela? -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:40:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Uriah Heep -:- Steady on, ol' girl -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:53:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Another Palindromic Name -:- ... but not 'Pip' (OT?) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:48:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- no, but I caught your blonde joke ... -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:14:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I'm glad I don't live in a high rise! -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 21:40:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- ... but not 'Pip' (OT?) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 09:21:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- ... but not 'Pip' (OT?) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 15:22:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- ... but not 'Pip' (OT?) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 22:25:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- ... but not 'Pip' (OT?) -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 23:43:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- ... but not 'Pip' (OT?) -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 18:13:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- ... but not 'Pip' (OT?) -:- Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 02:44:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Why... -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:26:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Why... -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:34:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Salam... -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:46:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Thanks -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:06:55 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Anth ? please check your email ! (nt) You too JM -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:39:39 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- La-ex, would you email me? Something's waiting -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 14:26:21 (GMT)

JTF -:- re: rawat's current status -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 10:31:19 (GMT)

__ Tim Miller -:- He ain't no freaking lord of the universe -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 04:55:18 (GMT)

__ __ shp -:- About the term 'lord of the universe' -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 15:54:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ gErRy -:- One liners -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 17:11:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ shp -:- One liners -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:21:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Here we go again -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 18:51:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Here we go again -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:33:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ hal -:- easy glum - easy glow? nt -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 17:22:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- gerry - Here we go again -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:25:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Hve you ever been experienced -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 04:22:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy dog -:- gerry - have you ever been experienced? -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 03:44:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Come on you guys, have some egg nog and a smile -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:49:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Come on you guys, have some egg nog and a smile -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 17:38:04 (GMT)

guru no mark ji -:- who's got the hardest knowledge!!! -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:03:47 (GMT)

__ Pauline Premie -:- You are supremely blessed and should be grateful! -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 18:21:15 (GMT)

__ __ toby -:- i pray that you -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:01:51 (GMT)

__ __ EV editors -:- May we offer you a job, Pauline? (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 19:29:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- WOW, the opportunity for FULL TIME PARTICIPATION -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:24:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ EV editors -:- Remember, if you work for us, it's Maharaji's gift -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:52:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- It's not work. It's participation. -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 23:43:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Curious George -:- Pauline, you're SO current -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:38:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- It's not participation. -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:17:07 (GMT)

__ Guru jolley Ji! -:- Only by grace of the grace of the money -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:25:52 (GMT)

__ __ Fratman -:- Listen up Girls -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:21:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Praise The Lord And Pass The Schlitz -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:58:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ ext -:- Praise The Lord And Pass The Schlitz -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:52:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- There are other aussi's out there -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 04:34:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ j of tha 'hood -:- say whut? yoube dissin ma homie, you bes.. -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:58:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- say whut? yoube dissin ma homie, you bes.. -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 10:54:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ j in da 'hood -:- oki make you a deal--translate yours and i'll... -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 11:34:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- ... and reload the joysticks! (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 19:50:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ ext -:- Listen up Girls -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 09:01:30 (GMT)

__ gerry -:- shouldn't that be 'fibberji?' -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:20:13 (GMT)

Kelly -:- Marjery the feminist! -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 22:15:09 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- Marjery the feminist! -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:26:41 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- Marjery, the feminist's dream target:))) -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 00:47:57 (GMT)

__ Katie -:- WHAT feminist! -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 03:41:27 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- DOW - as in 'dowry' ? (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 18:39:25 (GMT)

__ Monmot -:- Marjery the Equalizer :)) -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:47:41 (GMT)

cq -:- Barf-bags at the ready ... -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 20:21:03 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- Double Dribble The Drivel -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:25:50 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- 'Life is a journey'...GMJ: you are so original! nt -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 22:44:24 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- 'Life is a journey'...GMJ: you are so unoriginal! -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:29:18 (GMT)

cq -:- The past is another country ... -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 20:09:06 (GMT)

Mr. Free -:- The dot..Slavery consciousness? -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 18:29:00 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- Further Dots On The dot..Slavery consciousness? -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:31:04 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- Slavery consciousness? -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 19:37:29 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- Who built the Pyramids......? -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 23:43:27 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- The dot..Slavery consciousness? -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:09:08 (GMT)

__ bill -:- The dot..Slavery consciousness? -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 18:49:18 (GMT)

__ __ SongBird -:- Bill...you are really ignorant -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:50:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill -:- well duh, I was a premie for decades! -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:47:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- On the topic of mainstream Muslim dogma ... -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 04:14:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- (No, she can't just shut up and drop it ...) -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:31:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ boner...oops! not all b -:- changes are kosher! -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 14:33:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- changes are kosher! -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:53:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SongBird -:- Hey man I agree with that...the crash I mean -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 21:21:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Hey man I agree with that...the crash I mean -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:00:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ SongBird -:- As an Educator..please do some serious reading -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 14:25:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks for the friendly advice, but .... -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:29:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SongBird -:- attar is really great -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 11:57:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- attar is really great -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 15:03:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SongBird -:- yes I agree -:- Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 22:30:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- yes I agree -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 00:00:43 (GMT)

__ __ Mr. Free -:- The dot..Slavery consciousness? -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 23:48:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill -:- dont fergit Mr free, we also had no middleman! -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:09:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- And what planet did you say you where from? -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 00:41:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- And what planet did you say you where from? -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:11:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I was sincere also -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 14:58:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ ham -:- In the land of the pineal gland -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 02:56:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- In the land of the pineal gland -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:13:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- That's fair do, I just don't agree with you -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:44:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- why? -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 19:45:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- VERY important distinction here, Gerry -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:06:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- freedom, not license -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:39:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- disabuse versus abuse -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:11:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Ok, let's try again then. -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 01:47:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Ok, let's -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 17:52:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Yes, mostly agree, very clear, thanks (nt) -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:11:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Free -:- Right on Steve Quint -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:44:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Except for one thing mr free -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:40:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Right on Mr. Free -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:55:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Free -:- Words are only symbolic representations -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:12:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Yes I meditate irregularly -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:50:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Words are only symbolic representations -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:44:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Spot on mr hal -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:54:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- So identification of meaning loses its meaning? -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 19:47:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hal -:- So identification of meaning loses its meaning? -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 22:51:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- grock me grimaldi, and groll me tonite ... -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:46:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Yepp -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 07:37:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- the bizarre thing about gm and concepts -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 23:27:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- the bizarre thing about gm and concepts -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 18:56:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- if I can keep it? I meant 'keep it up' and BTW ... -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 19:12:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- A slap on the kisser to you cq ! nt -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 07:39:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Ouch! What was that for? -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:26:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- if I can keep it? -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 22:52:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I can keep it. (...going up?) -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 19:41:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- I can keep it. (...going up?) -:- Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 04:13:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- The forum is excellent -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 15:07:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Aaahh, Mr Bill -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:01:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ green eggs -:- say Aaahh, Mr Bill -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:35:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Naagh, don't do it mr bill -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 23:34:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ green grinch -:- suess -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 02:20:16 (GMT)

__ bill -:- The dot..Slavery consciousness? -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 18:35:12 (GMT)

justwonderin... -:- question for anyone with info -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 18:12:34 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- question for anyone with info -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 15:02:04 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- the spelling -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 00:41:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ justwonderin -:- the spelling -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:37:32 (GMT)

Way -:- Response from Patrick Halley -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 17:39:04 (GMT)

__ Way -:- Response from Patrick Halley - part 2 -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 17:52:13 (GMT)

__ __ suchabanana -:- St. Patrick's Day: It was Soupy Sales! -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 00:39:02 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- Response from Patrick Halley - part 3 -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 17:57:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill -:- Way -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:48:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- I think the big question is.... -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:30:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- We need ex-WPC to answer questions....... -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 20:48:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ bill -:- More of the story -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:58:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Jim had a really logical theory about this -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:05:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Found it! Thanks to Rog! -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:13:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- the maha said to fakiranand: -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:39:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- 1)Donner's story rings true;2)DLM cash settlement? -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 17:53:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- charanand/brick correction -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 15:21:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- more from me -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:29:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ X -:- more from me -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 14:20:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- here's a theory... -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 17:40:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- great post Gerry! -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 18:09:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- great post Gerry! -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 19:38:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- more from me too -:- Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 16:25:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Susan -:- that is one scary story, Marianne read above -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:55:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bazza -:- Penthouse mag -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 03:58:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- LOTU vid -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:47:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie -:- Hey, Way, thanks so much for doing this! -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 03:45:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Happy -:- interesting story -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 18:43:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- wasn't there a cash settlement? nt -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 00:42:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Here's the article -:- Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 18:17:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- Halley's Comet: YES, Please add his letter! -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 22:35:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Shit!!!! -:- Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 03:03:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- These responses -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 17:57:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Way to go! Thanks. nt -:- Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 22:41:50 (GMT)

Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 13:33:14 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Forum archives updated Message:

I've updated the archives page to now include the 3 most recent archives.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 14:17:16 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Brian Subject: Forum archives search engine Message:

The forum archives search engine has now all forum posts up to and including July of this year in its index. Click here to search all the forum archives All the recent archives from August to now will be indexed in the search engine in time for Maharaji's birthday. That's my present from me to him. .. Dave

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 14:00:58 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Sir Dave Subject: And now it works again Message:

I accidently broke all of Sir David's search engine links by revising the archive script and changing all the URL's in the process. I fixed that this morning, and have been able to access the pages returned by the search. Sorry about that, Sir Dave :)

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:57:03 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: And a very nice birthday surprise for Maharaji!!! Message:

Hi Sir Dave, A deadline on goomraji's b-day, how nice:))) And...thank you for all your hard work. Cyn

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 05:03:42 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: What a wonderful idea! Message:

Maharaji's bithday is only 5 short days away!!!!!!!!!! After all, we all remember it. It was drummed into us like it was the second coming of Christ! Can anyone arrange to send him a group greeting? E-mail perhaps? I know the technology is possible. Maybe thru a chat room or something? In any case, I will mail mine tomorrow just so it gets there in time. A desire for a most wonderous birthday. I only hope for his personal growth and honesty within himself. A new found morality.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:23:10 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Tonette Subject: blue mountain has painfully honest cards Message:

you can send them to him online at maharaji@maharaji.org or print it out and landmail it to the residence at the address on the elv papers 31334 anacapa view drive, malibu CA

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:01:48 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Are you in a Cult? Try this Quiz and find out. Message:

Are you concerned that you may be in a cult, but don’t realise it? Now you can find out for once and for all. Answer the questions in this simple quiz, total up your points, then check on the Results Table to see if you’ve been brainwashed or not. 1. You meet Maharaji in the street. Do you: a) Fall to your knees and praise the Lord in Human form. b) Walk past thinking, “Who’s that fat little, nervous Indian bloke in the expensive suit? c) Stop and say, “Excuse me Mr Rawat, could I have my two years Ashram wages, $3,000 worth of donations, and my collection of Rolling Stones albums back please? 2. You’re looking for the Gardening Exhibition, but walk into an “Event” by mistake. A darshan line is being organised. Do you: a) Rush home, take a shower, put on your best clothes, gather up a large cash donation, then rush back and join in the line to kiss Mr Rawats feet. b)Walk up to an usher and ask where the lotuses are? c) Rush home, gather up some spray paint cans, stink bombs and spectacular explosives, put on your Ninja outfit and go and sabotage the event. 3. Which expression do you think best describes Maharaji: a)Perfect Master, Satguru, Lord in Human Form. b) Short fat, nervous Indian bloke, in an expensive suit, smelling of cognac. c) Rip-off, drunken, philandering, deluded, ego-maniacal conman. 4. Do you believe Maharaji: a) Knows everything about you, and organises events in your life to ensure your spiritual development under his guidance and grace. b) Doesn’t know your name or what you look like. c) Sees you a gullible, source of cash for his next material acquisition. 5. Do you think “Maharaji” is: a) Your Lord, Master and Creator. b) An Indian Restaurant c) A way to get money out of old hippies. 6. Do you believe that Maharaji’s powers allow him to: a) Create Universes. b) Do nothing you or I can’t do c) Convince people he is God on Earth, enslave their minds, and divert a large proportion of their income into his bank account. 7. Do you believe that Maharaji’s meditation techniques give you an experience of: a) The infinite Creator within b) Some old Indian yoga techniques c) Eye ache, falling wax, and snot 8. Do you believe that Maharaji: a) Loves you more than your parents do b) Has never heard of you c) Doesn’t give a toss about you, except as a source of cash for the payments on his latest jet? Score 10 points for each a) you selected, zero points for each b) and minus 10 points for each c). Add up your total and check on the chart below. Over 50 points You are in a Cult and there is no hope for you. You are so brainwashed you stand no chance of ever getting out. Sorry, this lifetime has been a waste. 10 – 50 points. You are in a cult and have been brainwashed too, but if you try hard, read our websites and Forum 5 regularly, there’s a faint chance you may escape and start thinking for yourself again. 0 points. You are normal and have nothing to worry about. What are you doing reading this forum? -80 to –10 points. You are completely fucked, you’ve wasted the best years of your life following a fake and are trying desperately to pick up the pieces. The best thing to do is never let anybody know what you were doing in the 70s and 80s- make something up like, “I was working in a canning factory in Iceland and they lost all my records.” If anyone mentions Maharaji, say, “Oh you mean that little Indian restaurant downtown.” Anth the Completely Fucked

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 22:11:36 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: AJW Subject: I'm completely F88ked Message:

You lost your Rolling Stones albums??? My husband just sold the last of his LPs, too, bad, I woulda given them to you. You live in the Netherlands? Hush, as Security Chief, I must advise you against giving into temptation by revealing our next EPO Leader site. Until Further Notice, Love, Cynthia PS You're not Fucked

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 00:57:45 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Not F88ked Message:

just bleary eyed, and gut to go to woke layter these moanings. anth the going going gone

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 21:33:53 (GMT) From: Ulf Email: None To: AJW Subject: Not F88ked (going going gone ) Message:

hi Anth your post made me remember a old song , that i now can sing thinking of Rawat, it goes something like this : I been hangin` on threads, i been playin it straight now i`ve just got to cut loose before it gets late. so ì`m going i`m going, i`m gone. Remember this Dylan song ,? now we can sing it to Rawat Ulf

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 14:22:52 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: AJW Subject: Are you in a Cult? Try this Quiz and find out. Message:

Nice to see you're back to work Anth.So that what been keeping you busy lately ha? Inspector Salam

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 15:19:47 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Salam Subject: The path of Hedonism is hard. Message:

Hi there, Since we moved to the beautiful Netherlands, we've had lots of visitors. I take them on a tour of town, and sometimes it takes days to get back home. Everything goes all wooshy and feels nice, then I can't remember where I live. My wife has tried sewing labels in my clothes with my name and address on- but I seem to lose them, or can't focus, or forget how to read. You know what it's like Salam. The path of hedonism is a hard one. Whatsis name the thingy. PS. How did you do in my quiz?

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:13:16 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: AJW Subject: Qizz result Message:

I did very bad. I got to excited, so I splashed my computer with shaving cream. sheesh.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:30:27 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Salam Subject: Quiz result Message:

Salam!! Are you mad!! What are you doing shaving off that beard of yours! Now you can't be god or a guru! (your 'ex'-chela on the path ;-) (and don't blame your shaving cream for being in a cult - 'fess up, Salam! ;-)

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:23:06 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Ex-chela? Message:

When did that happen? Oh I know, it's that forum god on AG that did it. where have you been? I maybe of line for few days, upgrading my system, and trying to get that stupid network going. If it is not gonna work, then I will be really shaving everything I see including the dog.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 03:40:43 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Salam Subject: Ex-chela? Message:

Salaam, my guru Salam! Your still humble and over-awed devotee confesses - it was not dear Forum God at AG, but I thought you had shaved your beard! - gods and gurus have beards, didn't you learn anything from that thread that was here a while ago? I now understand that you were only throwing a shaving cream pie! Although I still worry that the shaving cream might find a way to your face with a razor blade in your other hand, or perhaps almost as terribly, to your poor invisible dog Tyson!!! Please remember, 'What God has joined, let no man put asunder.' You didn't think that only referred to marriages, did you? Can you find it in your endless compassionate love to have mercy on your shaking-in-fear-of-the-wrath-of-my-true-Lord, and ever more humbled chela on the path, that sniveling wimp, Stonor, AKA Anna??

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:53:21 (GMT) From: Uriah Heep Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Steady on, ol' girl Message:

Sounds like you should have become a premie, Anna. 'shaking-in-fear-of-the-wrath-of-my-true-Lord' you say? Well, submissiveness can be a viable lifestyle for some of us, but I think you've got more pride (or do I mean balls?) than to give in to anyone, no matter how much pressure has been put on you (or me for that matter - or any of us) to conform to stereotypes. But that was your point, wasn't it? Your ever-humble servant, go on, grind my face in it why don't you, oooh I like it like that (if only to get my revenge in the end) heh heh (rubs hands) Uriah . . . . (what do you mean, you think it's me, cq?)

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:48:17 (GMT) From: Another Palindromic Name Email: None To: Uriah Heep Subject: ... but not 'Pip' (OT?) Message:

Hummmf ... well, at least Salam has the decency to be uncomfortable, and sometimes even angry, when I tease him like that(!!!) It's a running joke, cq - don't go getting your knickers all tied up in a knot - and dream on about that rubbing your face in WHAT!!?? - this is FV, not AG, you know. And wasn't Uriah Heep an obsequious capitalist 'gollum'? - are you sure you haven't joined another cult? ;-)! Revenge? cq, if you weren't safely on the other side of the Atlantic .... So no, there wasn't a concious point, but I think you hit it anyways, and thanks for helping me to pretend to be on topic. I couldn't imagine being that grovellingly submissive towards another human being, even for an evening's 'fun'! And BTW, I've EARNED my balls! ;-) Then again, even if you and Salam were born with them, I think you've both earned them too! On a completely different topic (and to Salam too, when he gets back on line). I'm babysitting my 5-year-old niece tomorrow morning and called her today to ask her what she wants to do, dreaming of watching Fairy Tale Theatre, or the original Alice in Wonderland with her on my underused VCR inside a nice warm house as the temperature hovers around 0 degrees F under snowcover (my back is hurting much less after just one weekend of frozen ground! ;-). She promptly told me that she wants to go out in my garden. I told her that there wasn't much to see right now, she said she wanted to look at the dead plants through the ice!! (And you thought I was a gardening nut!) and then we could sit on the back porch and tell stories!! My silk long underwear clearly have nothing on her new snow pants! Her next brilliant idea was to clean my basement! And I thought she liked getting spooked down there with flashlights and her brother! Oh well, she seemed happy with settling for helping me to clean the downstairs, as that's next on the priority list. (What does my sister do to them! Do you think I should sweep up the bits of hay left over from the bale in my kitchen tonight, or leave it for her to be properly shocked by? And yes, the bale is now in it's proper place as the roof of the artichoke's winter house. And thank 'Whatever-It-Is' that I still have a warm bag of earth to dump on the bases of a few roses, just for fun! Alright that's enough of the OT ramble - definitely time for bed after an intensive work week. I'll let that Songbird wait until tomorrow - besides, I might feel the wrath of my guru on that one soon. The definitely not humble enough to be a traditional chela on the path, . . . . Anna (how DO I have the balls to sign this!) (and cq, did you catch my 'apology'(?) for 'hoovering' your leg about your hamsteritosis? (~)

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:14:20 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Another Palindromic Name Subject: no, but I caught your blonde joke ... Message:

... sometimes you just can't win: A blonde who lives on the 12th floor of a high-rise apartment building is out on her balcony, flapping the bed sheets to air them out, when suddenly a great gust of wind catches the sheets and sends her over the edge, plummeting to her death. 'Oh, shit!' the woman thinks to herself, 'what a stupid way to die.' Without warning, a man on the 10th floor balcony sticks his arms out into the air, catching the woman. Delirious from shock, the woman shouts, 'Oh, thank you! You saved my life, thank you!' The man replies, 'Do you suck?' Stunned at this, the woman says, 'No, I don't suck!' And with that, the man let go of her. 'Shit!' she thinks, as she begins to plummet again. Suddenly, another set of arms grabs her at the 9th floor. 'Thank God!' she screams. 'I would have died if it weren't for you!' The man asks, 'Do you fuck?' Absolutely aghast, the woman answers, 'No, I don't fuck!' Once again, the arms that held her safe were no longer there. Falling again, the woman thinks that she is surely going die. Just then, a set of arms stretches out from the 7th floor. Not believing her luck, the woman shouts, 'I suck! I fuck!' 'Slut,' the man said, and drops her.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 21:40:38 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: cq Subject: I'm glad I don't live in a high rise! Message:

Oh well, you win some, you lose some! Thanks for the laugh!

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 09:21:55 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Another Palindromic Name Subject: ... but not 'Pip' (OT?) Message:

Dear Anna, Too funny! :) I knew it was you from the first, signed or not! :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 15:22:25 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Robyn Subject: ... but not 'Pip' (OT?) Message:

Damn, my cover is permanently blown! I'm trying to figure out how to talk her out of hanging around outside today - it's still 0 degrees F! I hope the straw in my kitchen can divert that liddle winter-loving wascal's attention - my body does not find her idea of fun very funny at the moment! :) Love, Anna

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 22:25:50 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Stonor Subject: ... but not 'Pip' (OT?) Message:

Dear Anna, I'd be letting her stand in front of the open refrigorator just so I didn't have to be outside if she is hell bent on freezing her keester off! :) Kids! :) I was thinking of her wanting to look at the dead plants in the garden through the ice after reading here and had to smile. I like the 'off the beaten pathness' of the idea, I just hate the cold! :) We have only been hovering around 10 F at my place but I'll take 10 over 0 anyday! Think spring! :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 23:43:20 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Robyn Subject: ... but not 'Pip' (OT?) Message:

Hi Robyn, Yeah, she comes out with some winners. In a silly discussion of some advertising about Santa Claus sending letters, she assured me that she wouldn't ever get one from him because 'I'm not even not Jewish' - talk about early mastery of the double negative! Anyways, I'm happy to report that she changed her mind about spending time in the garden today, and instead, insisted on watching (again!?!) Mr. Bean go hunting for his lost watch in the turkey, head first. She gets a real kick from being able to judge an adult as being 'very rude', and seeing one who sometimes does what only children 'should' do, like jumping on a hotel room bed! What part of the world are you in at this point anyways? This weather isn't too bad as long as you dress for it. It's when we get -20 to -40 (which is the same in both C and F) that I really cringe at the thought of having to go outside at all. Fortunately we usually only get a few days of that per year. Love, Anna

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 18:13:59 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Stonor Subject: ... but not 'Pip' (OT?) Message:

Dear Anna, I'm in Northern Pensylvania, just moved a bit south but for some reason it is colder with more snow there then where I moved from! :( I should be in a sub tropical climate though, must be a lesson there for me on acceptance! :) Have heard of Mr. Bean but never saw the movie(s). Love, Robyn

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Date: Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 02:44:00 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Robyn Subject: ... but not 'Pip' (OT?) Message:

Winters can vary - it seems to be rather cold in Montreal for this time of year - then again, we've been through much worse, but that's usually in early February. We were watching a video I taped of some of his TV shows. I've never seen his movie(s?), but I heard the format was a little long for Mr. Bean, who's basically a mime. Sending you warm hugs! Anna

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:26:48 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Salam Subject: Why... Message:

...were you shaving your computer Salam? Anth the Gay Blade

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:34:55 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: AJW Subject: Why... Message:

got to excited reading the thread on the pie throwing incident below, so I thought I try it on my computer. Do you think there is something wrong with me?

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:46:15 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Salam Subject: Salam... Message:

...you're a model citizen, and a fine example for the youth of today. I'd give you a job anytime- shaving my household appliances and pets. Anth the Good Reference

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:06:55 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: AJW Subject: Thanks Message:

I only have to find an employer now. Rofl

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:39:39 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: AJW Subject: Anth ? please check your email ! (nt) You too JM Message:

about whiskey .... While the Forum Admin's away the Forum Assistant will play. Ha ha.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 14:26:21 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr To: Jean-Michel Subject: La-ex, would you email me? Something's waiting Message:

for you !!

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 10:31:19 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Everyone Subject: re: rawat's current status Message:

The description of the young rawat as a 'corpulent teenage avatar' got me to thinking about his current status. I've decided that he now could be described as a corpulent middle-aged avatar who currently finds it convenient(for recruitment/entrapment purposes)to deny his avatarness. I think it important to continue to monitor his manipulation of his sheep. In particular, I think it to be important to watch how he is controlling information. It might be said his strategy is to keep his cult members separated together in a bunch. It seems as though this stategy includes: 1)the satellite video programs which with home viewing make it impossible for the rank and file to see drop off in membership 2) the distance learning program which allows him to claim whatever he wants re. how many people he is currently entrapping in his cult. The overall purpose of this stategy seems to be to maintain his current flock(economic base)and use different marketing strategies to increase his income. It should be obvious to him now-unless he's very stupid-that recruiting/entrapping in the western world(where most of the money exists)just is not going to happen. He just pays lip service to what he calls propogation to convey the idea to his remaining cult members that this is a living breathing organization rater than a dying addictive organization. This is just my opinion of course and he may well be the Lord of the Universe currently in disguise for our own good.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 04:55:18 (GMT) From: Tim Miller Email: None To: JTF Subject: He ain't no freaking lord of the universe Message:

He is such a refined con man. In order to believe a lie you have to immerse yourself in it. You get to a point where, if not bothered by conscious or morality, you actually are able to believe the lie. Enter Mr. Rawat stage right folks. Oh and you failed to mention all the brain numbing, emotionally inspiring videos and music! Not to mention our indoctrination thru Satsang! How many hours did we spend doing that? What a waste of time! The hours spent under a blanket, playing the ostrich routine! Trying to realize/convince yourself that this was an experience of God! Pluuuueeeezzzzzzeeeeee! We could of had a real experience just by taking a kid to a baseball game for pete's sake! But youth, inexperience, idealization, optimism was his ticket into our hearts. A lack of knowledge, yes knowledge, about cults and America's turmoil. We were definately ripe for the picking. So what exactly are the present day's aspirants excuses and practicing premies excuses? Tell me. I would love to hear it. BTY premies this site is beign now that Jim has taken a sabbatical. Post away. Say all you want. Jesus, Mary and Joseph, I never thought I'd say this but I miss the SOB! Jim that is. Maharaji is richer than we could ever dream. Why is it that it is so hush hush on this forum about any leagal dealings? Whom is going to sue the SOB? I'm tempted to go to my favorite law firm and demand restitution! I would loose not being an ashram premie and not giving all my wealth. But what about the rest of you? Susan? Abbi? Us? We have lawyers here and very tenacious ones I might add. Is there no case? Sincerely, the ever angry about the con, Tim

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 15:54:21 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Tim Miller Subject: About the term 'lord of the universe' Message:

Let's get something straight before you read any further. This is not a defense or a rationalization of anyone or anything. It is merely my experience. No debates, no arguments, no worries. It's all good, whatever you believe, if you are happy. Before I ever met or heard of Maharaji, I learned that the term 'Lord' came from the old English, something about being the keeper of the keys to the larder, the breadbox, where the goodies were kept. And as for 'Universe', we all get mental pictures of the galaxies, stars and planets when we hears that word. But it also means 'one line'. So if we take all the encrusted religious trappings off the title, we have left 'the keeper of the one line'. When I got Knowledge, I recognized that he was the keeper of the one line, the primordial vibration. Whatever else he is or is not is not what I am here to debate. We all have to deal with it from our own experience and the valid input of others. Happy Holiday season to all. For the atheists, Good Day! shp

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 17:11:35 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: shp Subject: One liners Message:

When I got Knowledge, I recognized that he was the keeper of the one line, the primordial vibration. What do you get when an epileptic farmer falls in his lettuce patch? Seizure salad. A guy goes into a Chinese bar and says, 'How 'bout a Stoly?' The bartender says, 'Once upon a time .' What is the difference between Michael Jackson and a grocery bag?One is made of plastic and is dangerous for children to play with, the other is used to carry groceries. Why do Italians hate Jehovah's Witnesses? Italians hate ALL witnesses. How many mice does it take to screw in a light bulb?The hard part is getting them in the light bulb. What has 75 balls and screws old ladies?Bingo! What's the difference between a Catholic wife and a Jewish wife?A Catholic wife has real orgasms and fake jewelry. A guy walks into a bar with jumper cables around his neck.The bartender says, 'All right, I'll let ya stay---but don't start nuthin.' Charlie Manson is sitting before the parole board.He says, 'Is it hot in here---or am I crazy?' Did you hear about the Amish woman who wanted a divorce?Her husband was driving her buggy. A cop pulls him over and says, 'Sir, were you aware that your wife fell out of the car about a mile back?'I thought I went deaf.' What do you call a dog with no legs?Why bother ... he won't come anyway. A skeleton walks into a bar and says,'Gimme a beer and a mop.' What do you get when you cross a Jehovah's Witness with an Atheist? Someone who knocks on your door for no reason. What's the different between a Jehovah Witness and a Yugo? You can slam the door on a Jehovah Witness. Have you heard about the new scientific study which discovered that a certain type of food decreases a woman's sex drive? It's called wedding cake. But seriously Sandy, sounds like you've had a relapse. Oh well. You've come to the right place.

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:21:58 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: gErRy Subject: One liners Message:

Two cannibals are munching on the remains of a clown, part of a traveling circus that wandered into the wrong end of the jungle. One cannibal asks the other, 'Does this taste funny to you?' What does Bill tell Hillary after sex? 'I'll be home in 20 minutes.' Ya caught me off guard, gErRy. Maybe more later. I'm not relapsing, just damn tired of the whole thing. Seeing both sides ain't easy. Nice day, though.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 18:51:42 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: shp Subject: Here we go again Message:

I don't know where you got the idea that the word 'universe' has anything to do with 'one line' because it does not. Etymology: Latin universum, from neuter of universus, entire, whole, from uni- + versus turned toward, from past participle of vertere to turn -- When I got Knowledge, I recognized that he was the keeper of the one line, the primordial vibration. How could you possible 'know' this? This is magical thinking. Purely subjective. It certainly was not my experience.

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:33:25 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: gerry Subject: Here we go again Message:

Uni = one Verse = line Like I said, this was not a defense or a debate, just an observation and experience of an event that most certainly did happen in my life. Milkman leaves milk on your step, mailman delivers mail, and Maharji definitely provided something the day I received Knowledge. Whatever else happened, this remains true. If the mailman or the milkman turned out to have other problems, that does not take away from the fact that they also delivered something of value to me that I asked for. Even if the Holy Name is already is me and always was, the whole scenario Maharaji set up with the atmosphere and the trappings of the ashram and the instructors, the techniques and whatever else helped to get the point across, giving credit where it is due is OK. I can do that and still be pissed off about Jagdeo and other things. What's new with you?

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 17:22:52 (GMT) From: hal Email: None To: shp Subject: easy glum - easy glow? nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:25:27 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: gerry Subject: gerry - Here we go again Message:

So you are asking shp to deny his experience and listen to you.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 04:22:14 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Hve you ever been experienced Message:

Kinda lonely these days, dog? Looking for some friends to discuss the sweet mystery of life? You miss the company of truth, don't you? That's why you come here. I'm not asking anyone to deny his experience. But yes, I would like Sandy to listen to me. I'd like to see him get out of the cult. He doesn't have to stop meditating and having experiences. Do you know what 'subjective' means? I feel sorry for you Dog, you poor, lost cartoon character. Still clinging to the dream.

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 03:44:50 (GMT) From: Deputy dog Email: None To: gerry Subject: gerry - have you ever been experienced? Message:

Still clinging to the dream? What dream? Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try. Gerry, you don't need a sword to cut through flowers. As a buddhist I try to keep my dreaming to a minimum. Diamond Deputy Dog

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 16:49:06 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Deputy dog Subject: Come on you guys, have some egg nog and a smile Message:

When you find out who you are, beautiful beyond your dreams. Life is very short, and there's no tiiiiime for fussing and fighting my friend. We have a paradox, a conundrum, a living contradiction here. We have all been banging our heads against it for many moons. Some here are totally sold on one side of the argument. Others are totally sold on the other side of the argument. Yet others see both sides and do not take one or the other. Sometimes the effort to succeed has to be staying calm and letting the energy settle. Sometimes the effort to succeed has to be stirring things up. If we are each true to ourselves, then the truth will be known. Wax on, wax off. Take time to smell the cedar, pine, spices. Happy Holidays.

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 17:38:04 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: shp Subject: Come on you guys, have some egg nog and a smile Message:

To me the whole point of Knowledge is to wipe the slate clean. It's not about dreaming, although you can dream better and clearer with a clean slate, like you can write better on a clean page. It's like a calculator. You've got to press the clear button before doing another calculation. For me Knowlege is like that clear button. When you clean house, your true self is revealed (i.e., your Buddha nature) and then you consciously start playing and dreaming dreams. Sure, to thine own 'Self' be true. If you cannot find the truth within, where will you go for it? Dogen Happy Holidays

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:03:47 (GMT) From: guru no mark ji Email: None To: Everyone Subject: who's got the hardest knowledge!!! Message:

I have recieved knowledge of Marjie some years ago, got nothing but headaches and boredom!!! I was wondering if satpals knowledge was more hardcore than his brother jibber ji. And who would win in a no holds barred cage fight between the 2 fat fucks!!! blessings to all the ex-premies

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 18:21:15 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: guru no mark ji Subject: You are supremely blessed and should be grateful! Message:

You should be forever grateful for having received that knowledge, that love, that experience, that gift, from Maharaji himself. You probably were not ready to receive knowledge when you did, otherwise you would have that understanding to know that you had the ultimate experience of your own heart and you would be so grateful you wouldn't DARE criticize it or Maharaji. What a gift you have been given, allowing you to have that experience of that gratitude. If you claim to have only gotten boredom, it is merely because you do not have that understanding of that gift, and therefore do not have that gratitude, which is what that gifted experience is all about. Maharaji gives you the gift to be able to go inside and experience that love, that truth, that peace, that experience, which is a gift, but then, you get the real gift which is to have the experience of gratitude, which, like Mitch Ditkoff says, has been way too much overlooked by human beings in the hierarchy of emotions. Unlike me and Mitch Ditkoff, you are very confused and in your mind because you do not see how much sense this makes. Perhaps if you watched videos non-stop for a few weeks, you might be able to accept that gift and be saved. Otherwise, you, like the horrible, negative, angry, confused ex-premies on this website, are just too far gone for words. You must have that understanding, that without Maharaji, and that gift, which allows us to have that gift of gratitude, and the ability to do participation, we are nothing more than the bacteria that feed on dog excrement. Perhaps one day you will appreciate that Maharaji is working his fingers to the bone trying to remind you of that gift, and is forced to live in a delapidated house in a slum district of Malibu, because his followers do not give him enough money so he could live a proper life. If I weren't unemployed and living in the trunk of my car, I would give Maharaji 10 gazillion dollars out of gratitude and as an opportunity for participation because I unerstand that the experience of gratitude is wonderful, which is his gift, even though, because I am excrement bacteria, I hardly ever have it, but since I have that understanding, I still believe it is always there. Why can't you understand this?

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:01:51 (GMT) From: toby Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: i pray that you Message:

come so close to him physically and stay a couple of weeks, sharing his presence and his drinks, maybe be another gopi, ('i swear i drank his sperms and it immediately turned into nectar',you can then tell the others ). Have fun

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 19:29:22 (GMT) From: EV editors Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: May we offer you a job, Pauline? (nt) Message:

How little do you want?

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:24:02 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: EV editors Subject: WOW, the opportunity for FULL TIME PARTICIPATION Message:

Please, I would be ever so grateful for the opportunity to do participation at Elan Vital. Perhaps Maharaji would give me the gift of being able to write very excellent answers to frequently asked questions, not that they would be any MORE perfect than they already are, of course. Would you like me to send in a participation application? Actually, I have already done six, but perhaps they didn't get to you, obviously due to my lack of understanding, of course.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:52:39 (GMT) From: EV editors Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: Remember, if you work for us, it's Maharaji's gift Message:

Your six previous applications were obviously just not syncronised enough with the postal services. You have only yourself to blame. All submissions of material made available for publication are subject to EV's terms and conditions (that is, all copyright material is ours for perpetuity, and no actual recompense will be submittable to you, your agents, or your agents' agents, now or in the forseeable, or unforseeable future). This goes for all material published, whether supposedly originated from you, or from those we claim to be you, for now and all time, so help you Maharaji, thank you and goodnight. How much can you offer us?

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 23:43:42 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: EV editors Subject: It's not work. It's participation. Message:

I continue to be inspired by the extreme synchronized fashion in which Elan Vital operates. It is because of the way Maharaji has provided such clear, synchronized, synchronization, I'm sure. I have such gratitude for being grateful. And all I want is to express that gratitude by participating in participation in the most synchronized way. It's just so beautiful. I am also impressed at how participatory participation occurs in Elan Vital through leaderless participation groups, all the members of which are experiencing synchronized gratitude while doing participation. In other words, the students are all really good at setting up chairs, ushering each other around, and providing security for the two new people who have shown up in the past 5 years. it is just so incredible.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:38:25 (GMT) From: Curious George Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: Pauline, you're SO current Message:

Dear Pauline, It's great to have you back. I get such a divine kick out of you I really miss you when you aren't around. Reading a few posts of yours is much better than any expensive deprogramming therapy. I know you must be around the premie scene tongue in cheek because you know all about the recent leaderless leading (round and around and around and around and around..... and around circle after circle after cir.....cle. And on and on and on into eternity.......oh no M didn't like what you did there you know.) It's great that you are keeping in touch and letting us know all the latest in THAT experience and how to achieve it. Keep us posted (you two faced little premie you.) I wish I knew who you were. You sound like so many in my community (especially the part about all this service for two new premies in five years!) Love ya, Curious George ps. What do you think about all this Sai Baba stuff or don't you?

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:17:07 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: It's not participation. Message:

It's mental masturbation. When are you leaving your Cinderela guru and join the world?

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:25:52 (GMT) From: Guru jolley Ji! Email: None To: guru no mark ji Subject: Only by grace of the grace of the money Message:

script: when that god comes down and u look up, surely your making a mistake!! blah , blah, ad infinitum.. 'HALLO' - NOOOO!! I'M IN A KNOWLEDGE SESSION - NO! IT'S KRAP! - IT'S GEMME A HEADACHE!....... 'THUD!! SMAK!! CRACK~##% CRUNCH! (hi pitched whining continues:) 'to be completly dedicatid & surrended to guru mardi.....etc etc.....

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:21:48 (GMT) From: Fratman Email: None To: Guru jolley Ji! Subject: Listen up Girls Message:

Women should submit and obey. Go with the true flow and do as your master dictates. He will love you and after you are properly trained in pleasing your man 101 you will probably be allowed more privileges. Never interupt a football game and keep the beer flowing. You know when his beer is getting low fetch him another. My wife makes nachos for our beloved Broncos games. If she stays and watches with me she gets a nice foot massage. Remember we have the joysticks. We are in control!

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:58:33 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Fratman Subject: Praise The Lord And Pass The Schlitz Message:

How dare the guy below not know that the Broncos are from Denver. Nice to see a little 'macho' around here. I've found some good beer in Vancouver - if you're ever up here... Steve

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:52:39 (GMT) From: ext Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Praise The Lord And Pass The Schlitz Message:

listen piss brain, anyone knows the Brisbane Broncos would kill the Denver Broncos. They are such girls they have to wear all that padding and take drugs just to play. ext

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 04:34:40 (GMT) From: Aussi Ji Email: None To: ext Subject: There are other aussi's out there Message:

Gidday mate,you little rippa,geez a fair dinkum bloke wouldn't be dead for quids.I better go as I am flat out like a lizard drinkin'.Do you tanks need subtitles to understand this aussi lingo?

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:58:30 (GMT) From: j of tha 'hood Email: None To: Aussi Ji Subject: say whut? yoube dissin ma homie, you bes.. Message:

be ready ta THROW DOWN! ain no jivin turkey gonn mess wit MA bro! i gots a piece, say you gona reSPEK ma man! roun MA 'hood, you get yo sef CAPPED, you be sayin dat sheeit. no wat a'm sayin? we c'an't HANG wit dat noise! uh uh. ma momma din raise no foo'.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 10:54:09 (GMT) From: Aussi Ji Email: None To: j of tha 'hood Subject: say whut? yoube dissin ma homie, you bes.. Message:

Touche,That is very good,maybe I need subtitles for that lot.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 11:34:26 (GMT) From: j in da 'hood Email: None To: Aussi Ji Subject: oki make you a deal--translate yours and i'll... Message:

translate mine. and to think we are both speaking english, too...

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 19:50:12 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: ... and reload the joysticks! (nt) Message:

time ... gentlemen ...

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 09:01:30 (GMT) From: ext Email: None To: Fratman Subject: Listen up Girls Message:

you from Bris?

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:20:13 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: guru no mark ji Subject: shouldn't that be 'fibberji?' Message:

Yeah well, forgetaboutit. Here's about as good advice as you're ever gonna find: ex-premie wisdom

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 22:15:09 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Marjery the feminist! Message:

I’ve been looking through some of this old stuff I’ve got...you know, the stuff that survived the book burnings! Some of it is sooooo ridiculous. So, before I parcel it all up and ship it to Jean Michel, here’s one for the women, I’m sure it will really make things clear.! From 1972 Guru Maharaj Ji, have there ever been any women Perfect Masters? Very good question, but I don’t understand it because you are limiting Masters in their bodies. Why? It’s just that all the famous Perfect Masters have always been men. What do you mean “a famous Perfect Master”? You see, God gives women a great thing, because He takes birth from women. And to equalize this, by being in the human frame of a man, and that’s what we don’t understand. But in my heart, personally I have great respect for women because even God has to come through a woman. So He mustn’t favour women more, He must equalize this. So when He comes, He comes through a woman but takes a man’s body. You see? He equalises! Understand? Now women mustn’t be proud of this and shouldn’t waste their time just being proud of it. They must take the privilege of it. But people do get proud — they take the Rolls and put it on a turn-table, on a glass piece, and stand and look at it. “Oh, I’ve got a Rolls,” and never drive it. After some time it becomes junk and it is finished. Whaaaaaaaaat?? Mind you he was only a lad at the time……..love him! Kelly

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:26:41 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Marjery the feminist! Message:

What a load of bull crapp. The bullshit master.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 00:47:57 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Marjery, the feminist's dream target:))) Message:

Hi All, ''He comes through a woman but takes a man’s body. You see? He equalises! Understand? Now women mustn’t be proud of this and shouldn’t waste their time just being proud of it. They must take the privilege of it. But people do get proud — they take the Rolls and put it on a turn-table, on a glass piece, and stand and look at it. “Oh, I’ve got a Rolls,” and never drive it. After some time it becomes junk and it is finished. He sure started liking ''Rolls'' early in life!!!! When analyzed, he's comparing a woman with a very expensive car (an object) that he believes must not be wasted, but ridden and driven until he deems it junk. When ''other'' men just put their women on pedestals, but they still turn into junk. Like he didn't do both--shit he was young when he said this. Durja Ji: four kids, a brain aneurism, years of sitting on stage kissing his feet, (gushing) threats of stealing her children, a belligerant drunk for a husband, mistresses, or 'concubines,' as my Mom would say. (She'd also say he's a pig.) I always knew he was a sexist. Whooooo! Hoooooo!

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 03:41:27 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Kelly Subject: WHAT feminist! Message:

I remember this quote very well - YUCK (weren't all we females supposed to be 'childbearers' until M decided there were too many kids at festivals?) Remember 'Divine Organization of Women' - and 'women's satsangs' with that feminist role model, Durga Ji?

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 18:39:25 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Katie Subject: DOW - as in 'dowry' ? (nt) Message:

ker-ching!

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 01:47:41 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Marjery the Equalizer :)) Message:

After some time it becomes junk and it is finished. This is the only statement I understood, and it certainly applies to M's horse-pookey quoted above.

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 20:21:03 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Barf-bags at the ready ... Message:

... here comes the latest http://evnewsletter.org/a>

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 15:25:50 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: cq Subject: Double Dribble The Drivel Message:

This stuff is called drivel, not to be confused with dribble. This relates to my first posting on this forum on October 3, where I said: Prem Pal Singh Rawat's teachings have been somewhat effective in my life, but at a high cost, including but not limited to the factors mentioned above. He seems to me to be a minimalist, that is to say that he does teach the truth but in such a slow and cumbersome way as to make it analogous to Chinese water torture. I'm wondering about this, particularly the phrase he does teach the truth. I take that back. Any benefits I've derived from his sad songs was purely accidental and is not to be confused with any real truths, alive or dead. Steve

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 22:44:24 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: cq Subject: 'Life is a journey'...GMJ: you are so original! nt Message:

x

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:29:18 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Gregg Subject: 'Life is a journey'...GMJ: you are so unoriginal! Message:

The Maha says: The gift has already been given, and you have it. You are alive. And all I want you to do is to recognize it, to accept this gift in your life — this gift of clarity, of life, of joy — because it is an incredibly profound reality. It is not a concept or an imagination. It is not something that will happen if I do certain things and then some day God will look down upon me and smile and say, 'Good kid.' That's already happened. The smiling part is happening right now as the breath comes into you. Nothing can be greater. Nothing. You couldn't ask for more. And it's here. . . . . It's here, Maharaji, it always has been, and your attempts at getting people to think that YOU are the one to be given gratitude for the gift of life ... ... your attempts at stealing the credit for what Life has given us is evidently a con. (though not so evident to people who still want to believe you're the Messiah - though you now deny you ever claimed to be).

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 20:09:06 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The past is another country ... Message:

'The past is another country. They do things differently there'. (H.E.Bates 'The Go-Between') So who WAS Bimbo? Origins of the name: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/6773/ Betty Boop started out in the early 1930's as a dog character, primarily as the love interest of a dog character named Bimbo, in the Talkartoons series produced by Dave 'Max' Fleischer. She was featured in several cartoons as this dog character through 1930. It didn't take long for Betty to surpass Bimbo in popularity, and become the main character in the cartoons. (From: Starring Bimbo, featuring Betty, To: Starring Betty, featuring Bimbo.) In many of her cartoons Bimbo was portrayed either as her boyfriend, or at least a wanna-be boyfriend. As Betty's popularity grew, she went through a transformation, losing her dog characteristics. (Although her dog ears hung on for a little while, before becoming earrings) Before long she became the cute and sexy character that we Betty Boop fans have grown to love. . . . Then there's other possibilities, for instance: http://www.chemoplast-brno.cz/aj/hracky4.html http://www.visualmusicnet.com/visual/pyno/bimbo.html http://homepage.eircom.net/~eggblender/fdi/brew.html http://home.worldonline.dk/~isl17360/intro.html . . . My guess? Bimbo was Deputy Dog. Why? Just a hunch.

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 18:29:00 (GMT) From: Mr. Free Email: Lib8erated@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: The dot..Slavery consciousness? Message:

All who were initiated have a mark or dot at the third eye level. Has anyone else considered this to be an enslavement on the inner planes of your soul? Mark of the beast or.. It opens you up to more subtle influences and control by those who are more adept in the subtle consciousness.Like to hear some feedback on this. Only sincere replies would be appreciated. Having meditated on this knowledge for 20+ years I have realized many benefits. Like the rest of you I believe in soul freedom not slavish obediance to the Guru. Jesus, Moses and Abraham never had a Guru. A true Guru is unselfish and does not seek worship. If he is truly realized he does'nt need all the worship or 55 Mercedes Benz. What really surprises me is the callous ignoring of the truly needy in this world. The homeless the poor and diseased in regions such as the Congo. Once Maharaji said if you feed a beggar today, tomorrow he will come back then again and again. So I guess don't bother. A few cars and a couple of homes ok. It would be nice to reach out to others in need with the excess.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:31:04 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Mr. Free Subject: Further Dots On The dot..Slavery consciousness? Message:

I feel enslaved right now. I despise the feeling and it makes me want to take my life sometimes (don't worry, I won't). I feel that receiving knowledge put me into a kind of slavery. I can't get out of it. Help. Steve

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 19:37:29 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Slavery consciousness? Message:

Every time the Maha mentions the word 'gratitude', read 'slavery'. In the past, he was slightly nearer the truth, when he called it 'service'. The receiving of the 'Knowledge' was always intended (by him) to draw people into a state of dependency on him, his 'grace', his 'lila'. Ignorance was dressed up as being knowledge. Slavery as being freedom. Mind-control as being 'beyond mind'. . . . Steve, now you've realised this for yourself, why cling on to an outmoded way of thought and belief? You don't have to be a victim any more (addictive though the role might be, for some). . . . P.S. I hope you don't take this as demeaning (i.e. belittling), in any way, the reality of your feelings about the long detour you've taken from the journey that life COULD have presented for you, had you not even heard of the Maha. Fact is, you did, we did, and more will. Don't blame yourself (as if!) don't blame other premies who are still entangled, and don't whatever you do, blame anyone other than Mr Rawat, who probably saw through the whole trip decades ago, but preferred to wallow in the adulation and luxury that his (inherited) position allowed him. One of these days, the Maha might even WANT to explain how it was for him. One of these days, (but don't go holding your breath - or jumping off any more balconies)

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 23:43:27 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Mr. Free Subject: Who built the Pyramids......? Message:

.....the priests who'd sussed out the angles. They kept their knowledge wrapped up in secret mumbo-jumbo & the whole population in thrall to their superior status. Then came Euclid who wrote it all down on paper for everyone to read. I think Rawat & the many others like him are the same as those Eygptian priests. They've inherited a body of 'knowledge' which they are intent on keeping to themselves for gain. I'm sure Rawat no more understands the 'knowledge' than I do. In our case we are waiting for our 'Euclid', to give a rational explanation for the experience of meditation. If & when this happens it won't devalue our beliefs but reinforce our amazement at the very fact of existence . As far as the Congo etc. is concerned , that's all to do with money & power , subjects which Rawat knows about (a bit) but hasn't a clue how to manipulate for the common good. Because he isn't interested in anyone's good but that of himself & his family . Just like most people really. Abbie Hoffman was dead right all those years ago when he said 'if he is God ,then he's the god America deserves' If you're an American don't knock it ,(I'm Irish/English), the only hope for the downtrodden is the spread of accountable government. The only country with the power to spread & defend same is the U.S.A So if you want to help the benighted slaves of this world , rub out your tilak , pick up your electric gatling gun , & flop open your wallet. (that's meant to be black humour) I sympathise with your mental plight. Mine is the same. How to reconcile a view of reality as illusion , with reality as real (& very complicated) For myself I now realise I was suckered by the promise of eternity at the expense of the temporary. The people who've made a REAL difference to the lot of their fellow men have all known that time is short if you want to do anything of value in this world. & let eternity take care of itself.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:09:08 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Mr. Free Subject: The dot..Slavery consciousness? Message:

All who were initiated have a mark or dot at the third eye level. Has anyone else considered this to be an enslavement on the inner planes of your soul? Mark of the beast or.. It opens you up to more subtle influences and control by those who are more adept in the subtle consciousness.Like to hear some feedback on this. Only sincere replies would be appreciated. Having meditated on this knowledge for 20+ years I have realized many benefits. Like the rest of you I believe in soul freedom not slavish obediance to the Guru. Jesus, Moses and Abraham never had a Guru. A true Guru is unselfish and does not seek worship. When I started to meditate on the first technique in my knowledge session I had an experience similar to the one you've described. I saw a little star or dot of light in the distance, very distinct and strong and clear. Of the hundreds of premies who I have known live and through this forum you are the first to describe such a thing. Most of the people here deny that 'receiving knowledge' did anything to them. I have brought this topic up a couple of times over the last two months and received few or no intelligent responses on this subject. I feel it is boorish and insulting to put down a person's experience and this is what otherwise nice people seem to do around here at times. It is important to separate a person's experience about themselves from their experience of Guru Mahatrash Ji in my humble opinion. It opens you up to more subtle influences and control by those who are more adept in the subtle consciousness. I like that statement and I would say that it summarizes my experience very well, possibly better than any other statement that I have heard. Only sincere replies would be appreciated. I wish the respondents below would have respected your desire. I have questioned here that, if I did indeed received something important, did it come from Maharatweed or elsewhere. I was shown the techniques by a French initiator named Nadine Lebas. I did not see any influence of Mahashit in the knowledge session. So what gave Nadine the power or authority to show me or open me to something? This is the question I have answered only in my mind without evidence. You do confuse me with conflicting statements, though. Has anyone else considered this to be an enslavement on the inner planes of your soul? Mark of the beast or.. I think most of the 'enslavement' has come from bullshit that came from Mahaprick, his instructors including Nadine, and other 'premies'. It opens you up to more subtle influences and control by those who are more adept in the subtle consciousness. There are people in my life now who are, at least at times, 'more adept in the subtle consciousness' than I but seem to love me and have my welfare at heart. Some of them are on this forum, but I was thinking mainly of people in my everyday life. Bless them. I guess I have sought them out, most of them through desparation arising from mental illness. Having meditated on this knowledge for 20+ years I have realized many benefits. So you're saying that you have felt enslaved by knowledge and that you have realized many benefits. I said I was confused by this but I think this is my experience as well. Like the rest of you I believe in soul freedom not slavish obediance to the Guru. Cheers. I agree. Please feel free to reply as I appreciate your statements. Steve

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 18:49:18 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Mr. Free Subject: The dot..Slavery consciousness? Message:

Hi Free, Just an added note, if you really read the words of yeshua(jesus) abraham and moses, you may not feel so eager to mention them. Without all the mentioning of thier 'importance' in those books, and you took thier words and looked for a few sentences that were standouts and useful.......you might find you agree with yeshua(as he was called by his mom), jesus as you call him for god knows what reason we do that! Anyway, ..you might find you agree with yeshua on some of his sentences but would surely feel creepy reading some his other son-of-god sentences. The more you know about buddha, mohammed, moses, abraham............for christs sake! you certainly dont know about abraham! No woman should hold him in high regard! Well, to be fair, no woman should think anything but distain for mohammed and especially buddha and the whole lot of them are saibaba's of some variety or another. I should just stick to reading here.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:50:39 (GMT) From: SongBird Email: None To: bill Subject: Bill...you are really ignorant Message:

Bill..you are talking from real ignorance here...mentioning Prophet Muhamed (Peace Be Upon Him). I think you may be refering to the fact that he married more then one wife...Your superficial knowledge lead you to your statement that no woman would... What you have to understand is that he was a perfect husband as well as a statement , a warior and a humble servant of God. He cleaned te house, mended his own shoes, and married for very specific reasons... Let me give u some examples. He married a widow, because her husband was killed in battle... He married an old (80) year old woman because she had no family... And he married a Jewish woman in order to make peace with a Jewish tribe living in arabia... Perhaps you understand a little better now???

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:47:10 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: SongBird Subject: well duh, I was a premie for decades! Message:

Hi Songbird, I read two books on Mohammed and one was a time life series book. It was strickly historical and I will have to qoute them for your reading pleasure. I know you are fond of mohammed and I rarely mention him, but I was disparaging all the godheads and well, he qualifies as one of the more famous (disparagable) godheads. Again, sorry to mix it up with you as I like you and have all along. I know Jim pointed out some history that could make someone squirm (me for instance), but it didnt really effect you and that is ok. What I read is what I had as input and I will post it for you so you can refute it. Again, I am not trying to ruin your day or view. If you would rather not review that info, just mention that here and I will just drop it. I have a shiite muslim relative and I dont tweek his view. Not because of fear, just because he is settled and not bothering to review his systems of percieving this life. Mr Free is in flux and is search mode and is looking for confirmations of his thinking. That makes his subjects fair game for 'help'. right or wrong:)

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 04:14:28 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: bill Subject: On the topic of mainstream Muslim dogma ... Message:

I find their 'vision' of the afterlife most disturbing. Men who have been 'good Muslims' look forward to free sex with nubile 'houris', and women??!!! Well I asked some of my students and I think the question threw them into shock, because I got no answers. Apparently women don't seem to be part of the equation at all. As one male Muslim told me, quoting the Koran, I believe, 'The place of a woman is under the legs of a man'. Anna

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:31:33 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: whoever is reading Subject: (No, she can't just shut up and drop it ...) Message:

What kind of 'ideal' does this represent?!! This is a symbol of the heaven/highest goal of humankind? And how about an all-eternity acid trip? How long would that be satisfying? Then there's the meritocracy god that the western world is hypnotized by - those who are gifted enough in some way through birth, deserve to exploit and abuse the planet's life and resources, including their fellow humans, for their own conspicuous and nihilistic over-consumption. (For some reason I'm thinking of the Worm Ourobouros, which eternally eats it's own tail, but I think we are coming dangerously close to swallowing our own head, if we haven't already.) Anna

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 14:33:42 (GMT) From: boner...oops! not all b Email: None To: Stonor Subject: changes are kosher! Message:

Greetings Stonor, A revealing bit of info I will use soon at the next holiday get together with my Shiite relative! I (and Sir David I would guess) want IN to the moslim wing of heaven. Not near the border for christs sake! Any boundries with the other religions will be a war zone ANYWHERE! heaven schmeaven, doesnt matter. Well, if you want to know where the Worm Ourobouros is doing its eating, look no farther than the US credit situation. To maintain that global economy in its present form, the US exports debt and there is no turning back. The crash will come when it reaches unsustainability. Which is inevitable. Some say we have 10 more years that we can do this. (if everyone agrees because the alternative is so dreadful) The european central banks tried one last time to change the future in the fall of 99. They made an agreement to no longer lease gold. That spelled doom and they had to back off. Now they have capitulated and support the dollar inspite of thier wishful thinking 'if only we knew what we were doing 15 years ago and made a euro then and cleaned up our socialist economic policies then, we could have been the reserve currency and not the dollar.' that might be unreadable unless I filled in with more sentences, a LOT more sentences, but that does say it.

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:53:26 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: boner...oops! not all b Subject: changes are kosher! Message:

I was thinking of a more general 'head', but I guess that's a major chunk of it. Economics is not one of my areas of interest, nor is money, except what I need to do whatever it is I need to do, and I've always managed one way or another. I've read a bit about the World Bank, and it sounds strange. It's so obvious that something has to give/change, or something else will. You post makes sense, even if the situation doesn't. What was your posting name and subject all about? And didn't SongBird say that that 'paradise' doesn't exist? I think he's trying to set you and Sir Dave up with one of his sisters in the afterlife.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 21:21:46 (GMT) From: SongBird Email: None To: boner...oops! not all b Subject: Hey man I agree with that...the crash I mean Message:

I would second that..this is the most astitue thing I have heard here..we all know that there is going to be one BIG CRASH...when no one knows...some are sepculating this year..some next year..10 years? Maybe...If Bush comes in....there will be a major oil war...Bush Senior has some unfinished business with uncle Sadam...and Bush Junior is gona wag the dog's tale.. About Sir Dave and U...well I have had a talk with the gate keeper..NO WAY..NOT EVEN if you have a Shiite friend...The word is that you gota do some penance...that is 17 Rikas from Sunrise till sunset and some heavy duty Thikr...ask your Shiite friend about it...

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 05:00:33 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: SongBird Subject: Hey man I agree with that...the crash I mean Message:

I WILL ask him about those words. And Ill say what you said about the gatekeeper. He will probably get a laugh. Thanks Stonor

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 14:25:54 (GMT) From: SongBird Email: None To: Stonor Subject: As an Educator..please do some serious reading Message:

I think you are really speaking from alot of ignorance about Islam. I am assuming you are a teacher and an educator...if that is the case, PLease read up about the subjet before you make statements like this..remember..you are the one who is going to full the next generation's head with this nonsense... May I suggest you read Martin Ling's Book on Mohammad. Martin Ling was in charge of the Oriental Library at the British Meuseum and his book is the best source for western people. There are many references about heaven in the Koran. There is no specific genger mentioned...its not a make preserve...The Koran talks about spouses..and references are made to the spouse and not to gender. SO if you are a woman or a man and you end up there, you will meet your spouse .... Islamic Cosmology is a very complex subjet and was developed over 1000 years ago...one of the formost of Islamic Mystics born in Spain 12th Century. His treaties on Islami Cosmology are so omplex, that even today its very difficult for the average person to interpret them. But as an educator, I am not suggesting you read ibn al arabi...there are more modren books to read.. But please for the sake of the educated...do some reading before comming out with all the stuff in your thread...

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 03:29:19 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: SongBird Subject: Thanks for the friendly advice, but .... Message:

You don't know me too well, but perhaps you should have read a little more carefully. Do you think it was little children quoting the Koran to me? The topic came up in an adult highschool English literature course. The students I am referring to were adult immigrants from various parts of the Muslim world - they had no response to my question, as I mentioned, and I'm sure they know more about contemporary 'MAINSTREAM' Muslim beliefs than I could learn from any 'western' scholar. You mention 'all the stuff in (my) thread... ' - again, perhaps you should get your glasses - I mentioned only one thing Muslim. Personally I much prefer reading Omar Khayam, Jellaludin Rumi, and Farid ud Din Attar, to any organized religion's dogma, which was the main point of my post. BTW, the Muslim students in my poetry class particularly enjoyed reading Rumi and Khayam - Shaida told me that she took it home and found out that her father was interested in their work! You might find Attar a good read, Songbird - his 'Conference of the Birds' has a great deal of wisdom and beauty. Odd that the version of Muslim heaven you mention is the same as the Christian. And I'm quite certain that there are more complex 'Islamic' cosmologies, but are they really 'Muslim'? Might they not be Zoroaster, or Sufi, or Sumerian, or Chaldean or ...

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 11:57:18 (GMT) From: SongBird Email: None To: Stonor Subject: attar is really great Message:

I love Attar, and in fact I am planning to write a sequel to his work ( not conference of the Birds).. Some friends of mine in London did a play of conference of the Birds...it was aparently very successfull The Sumerian, or Chaldean did not have a Monotheistic believe... Sufis are Muslim mystics...including Rumi.. Yes there are some similarities in the Christian notion of Heaven and the Muslim notion as well as the jewish notion for that matter...after all they came from the same source..

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 15:03:06 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: SongBird Subject: attar is really great Message:

It must have been a real challenge to select a thread from all the stories in Conference of the Birds - I would have loved to have seen it! Wait a second, how did you get to 'monotheism' from 'cosmology'? A little 'yes', but 'no', not exactly the same to me. I think one of the problems is that there is some of the esoteric in all mainstream religions, and the esoteric, IMO, generally has broader and more ancient roots - it can get a little confusing. And then there are all the varieties and sects of the 'mainstream' that interpret various readings of religious writings (and in the case of the Old Testament, for example, there's also the transmission/transcription/translation factors). It's generally very hard to say at this point exactly what some of the teachings of the great human 'teachers' were, and from where they drew them. A long time ago, one of my students once stopped me in the hall to tell me that he was taking a course on the differences between religions. I told him that I preferred to look at what they shared in common. He smiled, and for some reason that seemed to be an answer to a question he didn't really ask. Khalil Gibran is another of my favourites - how would he be 'classified', and why? Ultimately, it's somewhat irrelevant to me anyways. And oh yes, another of my favourites - The Epic of Gilgamesh! that book really excited me when I first read it, because it proved to me my early theory that the Bible was not necessarily the 'absolute all' that it is said to be, when I read another version of the 'Noah' story. I was also amazed to realize as I sat in an outdoor cafe reading that slim volume, that I was holding a translation of a story that was once part of an ancient king's library in the form of many clay tablets inscribed in cuneiform that only saw the light of day again in the last century after thousands of years. Yesterday morning, in my class of elderly Chinese students, we were discussing 'The Useless', from 'The Way of Chuang Tzu', about 2400 years-old, translated by Father Thomas Merton. One of the students, Bihua, who had suffered greatly during the Cultural Revolution, had had her son translate it for her (it was on the flip side of 'The Need to Win', which we'd already discussed. It was pure magic to listen to her and another student sitting side by side, taking turns reading it out loud alternately in Mandarin and Cantonese, for the other students! She lent me the translation to photocopy for everyone. I'm going to ask them next class if they can find the original Chinese version to see how closely her son was able to translate it back to the original. Sorry to ramble on, but this kind of thing really excites me.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 22:30:59 (GMT) From: SongBird Email: None To: Stonor Subject: yes I agree Message:

My problem is that I can not really discuss my views on religion here, because I dont really want to lay a trip on anyone here...

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 00:00:43 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: stonor21@hotmail.com To: SongBird Subject: yes I agree Message:

I'm not too sure what we are in agreement on, but you've got me curious about that and a few other things. You can email me if you want.

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 23:48:35 (GMT) From: Mr. Free Email: None To: bill Subject: The dot..Slavery consciousness? Message:

Have you recieved knowledge, I mean gone through the initiation? If you have you missed my point or question. If you haven't recieved knowledge the whole discussion is a waste of my time. The dot or mark is clearly visible to those who have meditated and have any kind of awareness. It is at the third eye level. You didn't respond to that which causes me to wonder whether you were initiated or not. As for Jesus, Buddha and Moses not having a Guru I mean just that. There initiation or communication or revelation was directly from God or on the Spiritual plane. They did not have to bow down and worship an 'avatar' for it. God appeared to Moses in the desert not in the ashram or anywhere else. They had no middle man that was the point.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:09:13 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Mr. Free Subject: dont fergit Mr free, we also had no middleman! Message:

We had the ultimate ruler himself. No small potatoe or minor level cheese, the big cheese himself in person and so the so called buddha and yeshua and moses and whomever were at a terrible disadvantage when the point of the whole exercise is to actually BE here WITH the lord in person and not to look at dots of light as a sort of consolation prize because we cant look at the form of the ultimate ones body dancing with us in person. We had it all! Too bad it turned out that the whole pursuit of GOD is discouraged by the god himself. If we were to understand the 'god' then after all these few thousand years of human religion creating, we would have, by now, figured out a uniform idea, approved by the acual god, of how we should look at it. BUT, we are all fragmented in a billion different ideas and I say, that is the way we are meant to be. No one is attaining any place above the rest and I say hooray for that. I think you should look at that comment you made about 'to those who meditated and have any kind of awareness' Our lord and all those like him breed a crop of followers that think they are somehow more than the next guy and I think the more accurate view would be to see that we all have our different strengths and walking down the street you may just assume folks are pathetic or less than they should be but if you look at india, or nepal or old tibet or frankly, our lords own family, you will see that meditation doesnt work any miracles. 160 million people stuck in the untouchable caste in india for many generations will vouch for the fact that enlightenment and a dot on the forehead didnt help the indians attain the view that all are equal. Quite the opposite! I can state here that I have attained the a;sligjak samadhi and attained the highest levels of conciousness where I always see the dot in everyone. Since you or anyone reading this may think that we CAN actually get to a 'spiritual plane', then I am home free declareing that because you cant prove I didnt and I can play god. Do you see where the idea that we can attain the 'spiritual plane' is not only not true but is an invitation to lying and fraud and self delusion?

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 00:41:14 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Mr. Free Subject: And what planet did you say you where from? Message:

The dot or mark is clearly visible to those who have meditated and have any kind of awareness. It is at the third eye level. I thought the red dot thingy was a target, like 'shoot me here.' You've certainly got a head full of crap: magic forehead marks, gurus, perfect masters, gods. All crapola. In my humble opinion, of course. Maybe psychiatric drugs would help you.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:11:09 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: gerry Subject: And what planet did you say you where from? Message:

This guy was sincere, man. Don't shoot so fast.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 14:58:19 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: I was sincere also Message:

Steve, anyone who can 'see' the so-called 'third eye' doesn't need coddling, he needs help-fast. This idea or whatever it is of his, is not an 'opinion' it's a delusion.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 02:56:02 (GMT) From: ham Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk To: gerry Subject: In the land of the pineal gland Message:

Reckon mr free needs to get grounded and reduce the intake of bio-feedbacked drugs, some wood chopping, something simple, for startas hey gerr can you drop us an e-mail jus sent one to ya and it bounced

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:13:48 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger@hotmail.com To: ham Subject: In the land of the pineal gland Message:

Likewise as I said to gerry, I think it's decent and important to respect the opinions of those that differ from you.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:44:03 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: That's fair do, I just don't agree with you Message:

I don't know mr free, so have neither respect, or lack of for him, but his ideas so far seem VERY slack, like most new agers with belief systems, in fact make that ALL new agers with belief systems I've come across. Ain't democracy wonderful.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 19:45:12 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: why? Message:

Steve, Some people are of the opinion that Rawat is the Lord of the Universe. Should I respect that opinion? If so, why?

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:06:33 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: gerry Subject: VERY important distinction here, Gerry Message:

Disrespecting a person's opinion is one thing. Disrespecting the person because of the opinions they hold is quite another. Disrespecting that person's right to hold opinions because they differ from yours is, again, quite another thing. freedom of belief/religion/thought is enshrined in the Human Rights Act. OK, that everyone should have a right to differ in opinion from anyone they choose is a good thing, IMO, but a right to think for oneself doesn't imply a right that everyone should agree with you. But does that mean they should disrespect you for holding a differing opinion?

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:39:42 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: cq Subject: freedom, not license Message:

Disrespecting the person because of the opinions they hold is quite another Well, some people are of the opinion that black people are somehow inferior. I don't respect that opinion and I don't respect the person who holds it. Disrespecting that person's right to hold opinions because they differ from yours is, again, quite another thing. Disrespecting a 'right?' We're really doin' the twist here, Chris. Here's a question for ya: Do you think it's ok to try to disabuse some one of an obviously fallacious or harmful opinion or belief? I sure do.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 21:11:08 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: gerry Subject: disabuse versus abuse Message:

Disrespecting a right to hold an opinion, as opposed to disrespecting an opinion isn't a 'twist' as you call it. It's a fundamental difference that is all too easily glossed over in many disputes. All too often history has shown that the opinion of the powerful is taken to be 'right' without question. and the 'right' to question that belief has, all too often, been taken to imply an attack on those whose power the opinion personifies. As far as your example of the race-war in the US is concerned, those who disrespected blacks used the very same argument as you do, only it was turned around 180 degrees, i.e. they said that whites were superior, and refused to respect the persons who said that blacks were NOT inferior. They didn't respect the opinion of the people who disagreed with them, in just the same way as you don't respect the people (in this case premies) who disagree with you. Is the idea offensive - that you treat premies' opinions in the same way as the slave-owners treated their 'niggers' opinions?

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 01:47:59 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: cq Subject: Ok, let's try again then. Message:

Disrespecting the person because of the opinions they hold is quite another Some people hold the opinion that it's OK for them to lie, cheat and steal because they're above the law. I don't respect that opinion and I don't respect the person who holds it. Disrespecting that person's right to hold opinions because they differ from yours is, again, quite another thing. I agree everyone has the right to his or her opinion, absolutely. And this was never in question as far as I can tell. I have two questions if you'd like to respond: Does everyone person and every opinion deserve respect by virtue of just 'being there?' and Do you think it's ever ok to try to talk someone out of an obviously fallacious or harmful opinion?

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 17:52:47 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: gerry Subject: Ok, let's Message:

I'll answer your questions Gerry, but first allow me to lay a little groundwork so you can see where I'm coming from: I can respect a person's right to express their opinion, no matter how much I disagree with it. I can respect them as a person even if they hold opinions that I disrespect (this being very dependent on what the actual opinion/subject matter concerns). For example I respect and love my brother, even though we disagree totally on many things (too numerous to mention). Having said that, there's no doubt that there are some people whose opinions and attitudes are so offensive as to make any respect for them virtually impossible - the example you give of the persons who think themselves above and beyond the Law, and who lie, cheat and steal without any concern for the consequences their actions have on other people. That I wouldn't respect. But suppose that kind of person also happens to be an ace musician who plays like a demon? Do I still deny them any respect? I'd have a 'sneaking admiration' for their talents perhaps, despite their other failings. I guess it's a balance, though there's no doubt in my mind that some attitudes are unforgivable, and not worthy of any respect. So, to answer your first question: 'Does everyone person and every opinion deserve respect by virtue of just 'being there?'' I'd say this: Some people prefer to withold respect until they can see that the person has done something to deserve that respect. Other people not only withold any respect, they actively DISrespect others, until the other has ... etc. My own attitude and preference is to treat every person as deserving of respect unless I find a reason that requires me to withold my respect from them. But a blanket approval of all persons and opinions just 'by virtue of their being there' - that's definitely NOT what I'm suggesting. And your second question: 'Do you think it's ever ok to try to talk someone out of an obviously fallacious or harmful opinion?' My first instinct is to say 'of course it is', - especially if their opinion is actually causing harm to themselves or others. But whether it's always wise to do that is quite another thing. Different circumstances require different approaches. Sometimes you have to let the person just work it through for themselves without any outside interference. At the end of the day, what works for that person is what works for them, no matter how different that may be to your or my idea of what 'should' work for them. . . . . Did I go some of the way to answering your questions? I'm glad of the opportunity to try, since it helps me put my own opinions and ideas into some kind of cohesive form, and expressing them in writing tends to hone and clarify things for me. No doubt there'll be some ideas I've held on to for many years (without really thinking about why I ascribe to them) that surface in the process. When that happens I hope I can appreciate your and others' attempts to help me see things from another angle - hopefully without resorting to the kind of 'You're wrong; I'm right' battle that, let's face it, has been a feature of the Forum in the not-too-distant past. Re-evaluation is a worthwhile exercise, and getting egos tied up in it rarely helps the process. . . . You got that, Mr 'I Hate Your Guts'? kidding ;) Cheers, Chris

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:11:12 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: cq Subject: Yes, mostly agree, very clear, thanks (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:44:17 (GMT) From: Mr. Free Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Right on Steve Quint Message:

After many years of meditation I have found that the christ consciousness is happening constantly. Whether you want your consciousness united in that is your business. That same consciousness has 'vibrated out' inner disharmony that opens the door to various diseases and maladies. The ground is really level playing field for all...It's just a matter of inverting your consciousness. Or you cna just keep it fixated in the mind, sense, ego consciousness. The 2 are really part of one but the Christ consciousness is more subtle and requires practice to be able to live in the world and feel the constant presence of God. The techniques aren't as important as the connection.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:40:21 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Mr. Free Subject: Except for one thing mr free Message:

What you call christ consciousness to me is just a natural state of being, isness itself. Putting hi-falutin names on it such as christ consciousness is unnecessary, and also implies that that those who don't identify with christ can't access it, which is rubbish. Secondly every body is united in their consciousness, or they wouldn't be alive. And what's with this miond and ego shit. As though there are only two states, ego/mind and consciousness?? By the way, I don't dispute your experience, as usual wityh this shit, it's the definitions that are slack.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:55:07 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Mr. Free Subject: Right on Mr. Free Message:

The techniques aren't as important as the connection. I agree. But I don't like the word christ. From m-w.com dictionary: Main Entry: Christ Pronunciation: 'krIst Function: noun Etymology: Middle English Crist, from Old English, from Latin Christus, from Greek Christos, literally, anointed, from chriein Date: before 12th century 1 : MESSIAH 2 : JESUS 3 : an ideal type of humanity 4 Christian Science : the ideal truth that comes as a divine manifestation of God to destroy incarnate error The fourth definition is not bad but is not the generally accepted one. One has to be careful how one uses words, especially ones that are highly charged like this one. All The Best In Love Steve

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:12:14 (GMT) From: Mr. Free Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Words are only symbolic representations Message:

The use of the word Christ is arbitrary. If I said God or Cosmic or used some other term... FIDDLESTICKS!!!!!!!!! Get past the analysis and you get the essence. Is there anyone that is positive or happy or... does anyone who visits this place regularly ever meditate?

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:50:51 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Mr. Free Subject: Yes I meditate irregularly Message:

It goes in phases, ALWAYS have a wicked time, but get the same level, just different type of experience, from other activities. That's why I object to your SLACK use of language in an area where it's crucial. And since we're talking about a really nebulous sunject, think the definitions behind use of words here are absolutely crucial, bearing in mind our shared history. By the way, 'ONLY' symbolic represaentations??!! If language is so valueless to you, why speak to people & try to communicaste. Why not just commune with the experience. You can't expect not to be at least half-challenged here when you get into new age territory.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:44:17 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Mr. Free Subject: Words are only symbolic representations Message:

When a person holds up his hand it is zen. When he holds up his hand and says ' this is zen ' ; zen is lost. Being free and happy and positive is a state of self delusion , for as soon as one claims to have that where is it? Light MUST cast a shadow in this dualistic dimension. Anyone not acknowledging and integrating so called negativity and darkness has major problems balancing this life. This leads to longings for other realities and beliefs about perfect masters or gods. Making evaluations and judgements about what is higher or lower creates spiritual ego and separation, one of the reasons I left Maha. He creates this idea of a spiritual elite , who on closer investigation turn out to be no different or more enlightened than anyone else. Don't be discouraged, there is a lot of honesty and realness amongst those here. Nice hearing from you Freebird. Hal ( not the computer)

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:54:32 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Hal Subject: Spot on mr hal Message:

Wood chopping, or other simple physical activities, have great value in balancing out the chemically addictive nature of meditating, especially when only 'niceness' is allowed with it.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 19:47:38 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Hal Subject: So identification of meaning loses its meaning? Message:

Hal, I was with you in the second half of your post. But, (and 'butt' implies a turning-away, though in this instance without the social insult so often intended) the Zen ethos (or is it an anti-ethical stance?) involves just as much politically-correct / clique-correct thinking as any other form of idealism, only Zen manages to put it in a form that appears to be beyond such trivialities of allegiance. What am I suggesting? (I ask myself) That 'Zen-thinking' is as much a cultist phenomena (though a potentially useful one) as any other cul-de-sac of belief. Useful in that a cul-de-sac can teach a lesson to those who don't find fulfillment in going round in circles. Naturally it's a lesson that is reinforced by repetition. So I put up my hand to identify a particular path. The path is not me saying it's the path. But the path leads somewhere. And where does Zen lead? (not to xenophobia, I hope). (next round on you?)

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 22:51:50 (GMT) From: hal Email: None To: cq Subject: So identification of meaning loses its meaning? Message:

Hi cq, I found your post a bit complex for my thought processes. Zen is not about thinking so I don't get the 'zen thought' bit. As far as I know there is no zen thought. Zen is a flash of lightning , lightening the consciousness and making nonsense of logical thought processes. It just is. Like happiness can just come upon one for no particular reason so zen comes . It is indescribable but you know it when you've grocked it ! Hal

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 18:46:06 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: hal Subject: grock me grimaldi, and groll me tonite ... Message:

Hi Hal, Yup, my thought processes were less than easy to follow, and if I can keep it, the next you know I'll being writing in koans from start to finish! Incidentally, you say 'Zen is not about thinking' - well, the 'beyond-thought' experience may be the culmination of Zen, but it certainly DOES employ thought processes to get you beyond them. (I think) Zen is a teaching, and as such it employs concepts. But the concepts are designed to get you to a space beyond concepts. That's where the Maha's myopic vision caught him short. He thought that concepts (whatever that word means to him) were themselves to be shunned, since the meditational state - which I'm sure he knows more about than any other person on the planet ;) - leaves the world of concepts behind. But being beyond thought doesn't and shouldn't imply that thought itself is to be shunned and/or suppressed. It's a natural process, and tying to 'stop thinking' is one of the surest routes to mental self-torture that exist. Zen has the good fortune of being able to produce that 'flash of lightning' as you so accurately describe it, that uses the mind to its capacity in contemplating the koan, and thereby gives the opportunity of exceeding the limits of thought. THAT's the payoff, and you don't get there by negating the mind, or the human thought-process. Here's a nice one I found: An important concept in Zen teaching is the idea that nothing is absolutely true or false, good or evil; it just is. One of the characters in Tom Robbins's best-selling book Even Cowgirls Get the Blues (yeah, there was a movie, too) expressed this Zen thought nicely when he said, 'I believe in everything; nothing is sacred. I believe in nothing; everything is sacred.' from http://www.idiotsguides.com/Quick-Guides/MG_Zen/file.htm And your (home-grown) koan for today: . . . 'Why is a koan?'

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 07:37:30 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: cq Subject: Yepp Message:

I reckon so. What is the sound of shit happening ? The Koan system has not been found so effective with the Western mind. I'm actually not completely into any one particular system and prefer a very varied list of ingredients in my kitchen these days. I do like Zen stories though. I also like the lack of belief systems in Zen, the simplicity of it. Thought is an important part of the Zen process and the intellect is to be developed to razor sharpness. However zen is as you know ' neither this nor that'. Thanks for your valuable comments Chris, Hal

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 23:27:56 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: cq Subject: the bizarre thing about gm and concepts Message:

He goes on and on about no concerpts, yet if you look at his social comments they are riddled with concepts, and I don't know about you, but even as outside of it as I was I've been amazed at the amount of spiritual baggage I picked up from him, and as fgor the reinforcement of those concepts in the premie community, well nuff said.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 18:56:31 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: ham Subject: the bizarre thing about gm and concepts Message:

Too right, Ham, I think I must have been completely and totally no-doubt-about-it dumb to get hooked into a 'teaching' (hardly the right word) that considered 'concepts' bad, yet blatantly hammered on about the concept of ... hmmm, let's see... SERVICE ... for one, the need to 'SURRENDER' ... 'REALISING' the Knowledge ... (whatever that was supposed to imply - the Maha never really talked much about that, - just dangled it as a carrot, or used it as a stick for us premies) DARSHAN ... now there's a concept to question, especially since he now denies all claims to divinity ... 'HOLY FAMILY' - hah! as if that wasn't a concept. Let's face it, the whole trip was riddled with them from top to bottom. Now here's a concept for the Maha to get to grips with: DENIAL. I wonder if he knows how much denial being a premie involves. And we thought it was acceptance! Weird trip. Totally weird.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 19:12:42 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Hal Subject: if I can keep it? I meant 'keep it up' and BTW ... Message:

... while I'm on a roll - Your thought for tomorrow: Has the river a will? . . . . . . . . . . . . Has the universe?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 07:39:33 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: cq Subject: A slap on the kisser to you cq ! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 20:26:42 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Hal Subject: Ouch! What was that for? Message:

I'd prefer a kiss on the slapper.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 22:52:46 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: cq Subject: if I can keep it? Message:

Well, the river and the universe have things that make demands on them and in a way, are the boss or the cause (or however you might want to say that) of the behaviours of the river or the universe. In the river, all the gravitational factors, and the factors of what things the river picks up besides water, evaporation ect. will influence and might be labeled will. You know, the zen idea has its cute wordsmithing, but leaves the hard work of actually knowing and understanding reality to scientists and to those that analyze human nature and our limits. Assumption of a no boundries view doesnt get us out of our boundries. It just seems for a moment like we are free courtesy of our viewpoint. But, we are locked up tight! Too bad for all those that think otherwise! You can be a Mr Free only in relation to ideas. Not to the boundries of human nature. And I say hooray for that. Although it does make for all the headlines and all the human troubles.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 19:41:54 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: bill Subject: I can keep it. (...going up?) Message:

It happened like this: I'd been posting for a while, and thought I'd pop out of the Uni buildings (where I have online access) for a quick drag on a ciggy, as we Brits say ( - or a quick suck on a fag, as the US comedians prefer) and, whaddya know, there I am, sitting by the banks of the River Wear, watching the lights of the boathouse opposite reflected all shimmery wobbly in the water. And there goes the river. ... keeps going ... The Zen thread of Hal's got me pondering about whether the river, (itself a powerful metaphor - river of life, dig?) had any say about where it went, where it came from etc. It seemed obvious. A river has no will-power, it just flows where it's got to flow. And if the river has no power over its destiny, why should the Universe? We're all products of creation. But can we really influence where we're going? (enough for today, already).

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 04:13:27 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: cq Subject: I can keep it. (...going up?) Message:

Hi cq, I mentioned the factors I could think of, I kind of short out when faced with the larger question. Maybe that is why I default to the science guys of late, I stand befuddled by the river of life, see that the godheads are flawed noticably, and look over at the science center and say 'tell me the truth guys!' Of course, whodathunk, there in the science world, there are materialists lurking that want to insert religion where the evidence is not insisting on that. Seems like the cosmology science folks keep turning up reasons for this or that effect. I bet they end up providing the answer on the river question but for now I say, insert some cannibis in that fag and suck it and type me the answer as you see it then!

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 15:07:27 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Hal Subject: The forum is excellent Message:

You know, in the group of folks that like to research scientific subjects, there are things like peer group reviews and other ways that they judge the claims and work of others. In 'spiritual' groups, all manner of claims are allowed, and if I were to mention that Mr Free's idea that disease and maladies were the result of spiritual causes is incorrect, I guess I would qualify for not being positive and happy and guilty of having a deficiency of one sort or another. You know Mr Free, this forum is excellent for its intended purpose, which is to help people view and discuss, thier thinking and programming on subjects related to reality. We were told many things by those in this cult and also all books you have read and ideas you heard from others. When someone speaks them here, we read them and all ideas that are weak and overstated and false are not applauded but are identified and pointed out to help you and us move past them. This is not a forum where there is no peer review. This is not a forum where anyone can proclaim realities and not have to back it up with solid understandings. Anyone that wants to be free of assumptions about life can find the great usefulness of this forum.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:01:27 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: bill Subject: Aaahh, Mr Bill Message:

Couldn't agree more wholeheartedly, especially about the illness link to mind states. There has been some research done on this, tendencies to but not every illness. Say that mr free's position was accurate. Once one had accepted that mind state COULD affect body states, just get on with living. Never understand why new agers have such LARGE baggages conceptually wise, and that's without all the guilt stuff it can set up for others once they are ill. Just sloppy thinking and language use I reckon.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 13:35:17 (GMT) From: green eggs Email: None To: ham Subject: say Aaahh, Mr Bill Message:

Hi Ham (zen), guilt, right you are, even when the lord rawat told us that we could not do it but only his grace would, he still blamed us and our effort for not reaching up to where his grace could take us. I probably should go easier on newbies here. I think what sets me off is that undercurrent of superiourity that leaks out in thier posts. Maybe I should stick to all the great ot posts here. bill

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 23:34:25 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: green eggs Subject: Naagh, don't do it mr bill Message:

It's hardly like you ruff 'em up in the infamous jimmy style, but then I was rather partial to that too. When I arrived here, I was surprized by the level of premie superiority, not believed in any more, that was still there in my brain. And as for archetypal new agers, well I reckon they ask for it. The problem, as we both know too well from that route, are the assumptions masquerading as thinking that becomes the norm.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 02:20:16 (GMT) From: green grinch Email: None To: ham Subject: suess Message:

Jim was somehow able to maintain interest crawling around inpenetrable brains. Perhaps Dettmers ruined the forum for Jimbo. A little to much insider info cripples the opposition. Not to worry, Jim can find sloppy thinking all around. I would have liked his input in some of the recent ot threads frankly. If you email him, tell him to make a honakah visit.

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 18:35:12 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Mr. Free Subject: The dot..Slavery consciousness? Message:

Hello Mr free, I think you may want to review the idea you have that someone, anyone, can attain some 'master' style state. You may hit some experience you think is 'improved' by alcohol or drugs or mantras or whatever you want to concentrate on or use, but no one STAYS in any state and that is a very key point. At best, all the folks that think they get somewhere, are there for minutes or less. Lots of minutes.....if they insist, but definately not hours. Does that seem like what you have noticed as well?

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 18:12:34 (GMT) From: justwonderin... Email: anon To: Everyone Subject: question for anyone with info Message:

does anyone know or know of someone related to this whole mess named jawaheerlal ranjitsingh?? just wonderin...

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 15:02:04 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: justwonderin... Subject: question for anyone with info Message:

These are the only links I could find on this character. He appears to be a sikh. But You could be asking for someone else. Is the spelling of the first word correct http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/warriors/ranjit.html http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/0/0,5716,64270+1+62680,00.html

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 00:41:54 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Salam Subject: the spelling Message:

'jawaheerlal' is probably Jawaharlal 'ranjitsingh' is probbably Ranjit Singh I found a Maharaja Ranjit Singh and a Jawaharlal Nehru, but nothing on Jawaharlal Ranjit Singh.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 16:37:32 (GMT) From: justwonderin Email: anon To: G Subject: the spelling Message:

thanks for the info. I will be posting some interesting information in the near future.

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 17:39:04 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Response from Patrick Halley Message:

A couple weeks ago, the Penthouse article about Pat Halley throwing a pie in Maharaji's face was posted here. There was then some speculation about Pat's current status. I noted that there was a Patrick Halley still listed in Detroit's white pages, so I wrote that person a short note. Sure enough, it was THE Patrick Halley and he wrote back a nice letter. He gave permission for the letter to be posted here, so here it is: * I am very pleased to hear from any premie or ex-premie of Guru Maharaji. I would join the web discussion but am not hooked up...ah, to be rejected by, first, God, and then his electronic reflection. My partner is hooked up and does the digging, I spend so much time studying, reading and writing I have little time for chat rooms; and I like lettes better anyway, they have a material solidity that is appealing. Yourself or any entities concerned are welcome to write, call, or whatever. I am not in journalist's union, I am a ghost-writer for an economics professor whom has column in tri-county legal news here, and I drive a taxi in city of Detroit. If you or friend could send me a copy of that Penthouse article I would be in your debt, I 'loaned' mine out years ago, and, times being as they are, never saw it again. For the record, I never hated Guru Maharaji, nor what I call the 'alternative conciousness movement.' I am, unofficially, a Buddhist, and was at the time of the pie incident. I used to be an official buddhist but had trouble with Nichiren Shoshu people because I wouldn't conform to their every way. Who are they, or anyone else, to stand between me and 'God?' Of course, I was the first one to stand up to CULTS even before the concept was clear. I used to teach meditation at a free university in Detroit and we studied comparative religions. I was always very impressed with KRISHNAMURTI who, like Maharaji was a teenage Guru exploited by a cult movement. But he revolted and dropped out...long before Divine Light Mission arose in the States. I read many of his books and still do, he is very much an advocate of taking personal responsibility for your conciousness and has always scoffed at religious, academic and almost all other authority. It was in this context that I went after Guru Maharaji. I did, as a reporter, go to a few Divine Light meetings, and clearly saw it as little more than an Amway of the mind. Although, I do say the Divine Light Mission does have a viable meditation method. I can tell by the 'contact high'...the vibes I got from close proximity to followers. The thing is, I know several meditations myself, so I know but I know that it is an ill thing to use this to manipulate people. The other thing, which I learned from Zen Buddism, is that Divine Light didn't have a good exit strategy. In other words, there needs to be a way or an understanding to integrate spiritual experience with daily life. As an example: I was in downtown Vancouver (Canada) with a student of Scientology. He told me, in extolling the benefits of Scientology, that after mastering this discipline he would be able to stop traffic on the street, enabling him to walk across unimpeded. I responded that as a student of Zen, I would wait for the traffic to clear, and then walk across the street like everybody else. This was in 1970, I was 20 years old and hitchhiking around North America. cont. next post

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 17:52:13 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Way Subject: Response from Patrick Halley - part 2 Message:

You see, John Travolta is a Scientologist, and these people are also deluded and exploited...yet, I figure they probably have some viable lessons or methods that could SHARE if they were a true religion. The only reason I pied Guru Maharaji, as opposed to another religious figure was timing. He happened to be coming to Detroit to get 'Ket to the City' while I was involved in the Underground Press. So if you combine political activism with my 'mystical' background (along with the fact that I had been doing theatre and performace art as well) you can see that this poor 16 year old was in the wrong place at the wrong time. A few years later, when interviewed by Detroit Free Press in a followup article, I was asked if there was anyone else I would pie, and I mentioned the Pope. (I got a lot of flak from inlaws for that). You see, I didn't think I was anyone special, I wanted and believe that everyone should throw pies at all kinds of phony authority figures. In that regard, I started a movement. Even a few months ago someone pied Cretian, the prime minister of Canada. George Bush Senior, coutless mayors, university deans and various politicians at all levels have been pied around the world. That is all I wanted - for everybody to loosen up and get a little crazy, or, actually, get real, and we have. By the way, one of the Detroit Free Press reporters who misquoted me after the 'event' got a deal lined up to do a cover story for Rolling Stone magazine, about me. I was, as the song went, to be 'on the cover of the Rolling stone.' Fame, or more fame, and certainly fortune, in the form of a book deal, probably, a tour and all such trappings awaited me, and, to the dismay of many of my friends, and especially my parents, I turned it down. Becoming a cult figure myself was not the way. Such would have betrayed everything I was and said. I felt that I was making poetry, I was the poem, I was not a hollywood movie and I was not even the story. Years later, as I wheel a cab down dark deserted streets at 3 or 4 in the morning in blue jeans that are faded and empty of cash I still remind myself that I was correct. Actually, I had no choice, it wasn't me that threw the pie...it wasn't me that faced up dug up the concept of the cult. It was fate, it was the wind, it was the three stooges, it was infinity, it was the availability of cheap ingredients making such an incident inevitable...was the law or randomness, chaos...it was me, and it was all of us. So say hi to all the ex or present premies for me, tell them that I said God loves those that make him (her) laugh, wants us to laugh. I'd love for the Guru to write or call me. He can come and watch me play hockey with the boys in downriver Detroit, and have a few beers with us. Tell him I'm not afraid, that I know it was his corporate people who ordered I be killed, (this I was told by Jupteswar Mishra, one of those who crushed my skull with a crow-bar). Tell the Guru to read the Conan the Barbarian novels where priests and magicians are routinely axed by wildmen from the north country. cont. next post

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 00:39:02 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Way Subject: St. Patrick's Day: It was Soupy Sales! Message:

Attention to this section, especially the last part of the second paragraph! 'I had no choice, it wasn't me that threw the pie...it wasn't me that faced up dug up the concept of the cult. It was fate, it was the wind, it was the three stooges, it was infinity, it was the availability of cheap ingredients making such an incident inevitable...was the law or randomness, chaos...it was me, and it was all of us. So say hi to all the ex or present premies for me, tell them that I said God loves those that make him (her) laugh, wants us to laugh. I'd love for the Guru to write or call me. He can come and watch me play hockey with the boys in downriver Detroit, and have a few beers with us. Tell him I'm not afraid, that I know it was his corporate people who ordered I be killed, (this I was told by Jupteswar Mishra, one of those who crushed my skull with a crow-bar).' 'Tell him I'm not afraid, that I know it was his corporate people who ordered I be killed, (this I was told by Jupteswar Mishra, one of those who crushed my skull with a crow-bar).' 'Tell him I'm not afraid, that I know it was his corporate people who ordered I be killed, (this I was told by Jupteswar Mishra, one of those who crushed my skull with a crow-bar).' Peace,

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 17:57:09 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Way Subject: Response from Patrick Halley - part 3 Message:

By the way, you can share this letter with anyone you like, on line or otherwise, and please send me copy of Penthouse article if you can. Meanwhile, anyone may also write to me, I enjoy such. I do publish articles and write a lot, and like the fact that it is a tradition. I enjoy many traditions. In the meantime, Keep love and freedom in your mind. Patrick Halley 17325 Warrington Detroit, Michigan 48221-2766 (313-345-6510) * The Penthouse article was posted in a thread that is evidently not yet archived. When it is available, I will copy it and send it to Pat. Or, if someone could repost it to this thread, then I will send it to Pat.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:48:10 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Way Subject: Way Message:

Thanks for the saibobo link. turns out 'swami tells us not to look at the internet but the 'inner net'.' and then the org set up sites that support bobo's teaching. Sounds like our own lord.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:30:51 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Way Subject: I think the big question is.... Message:

if Pat Halley said that he was told by fakiranand or someone that maharaji didn't order the hit, but that the 'corporate' boys ordered it, who were they? this seems to jive with a story that a community coordinator once told a small group of us years ago. he was bragging, sort of a spiritual machismo type thing, but he told us that when some of the really heavy splitting up with the holy family was going on, that a group of honchos in Denver were told to sit in a room in the kittridege building and to not leave the room, until they were told that they were allowed to... they were told that if a certain phone call from india came through, that someone might have to be killed that night(from the balbhagwan ji camp), and that one of the guys in that room would be asked/chosen to do it....this guy was really into telling this story, almost wishing that the call did come through and that he was the one chosen.... anyway, the call never came....no one was chosen for their special service....this is sick stuff, but what was sicker was the way that the coordinator was relishing the idea of possibly doing something like that...

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 20:48:13 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: la-ex Subject: We need ex-WPC to answer questions....... Message:

......like this one. I don't know anything about this particular story , but I do recall some others from the 70's equally wierd/criminal/disturbing. I knew some of the people involved , obviously. At the time my attitude was something like 'guerrilla warfare in the service of the lord , WOW , go go ' . As was theirs. They were all WPC. It might be naive of me to hope that one or two would come forward with a 1st hand account......but here's hoping anyway. Raja ji knows where lots of bodies (metaphorical) are buried. Now any hopes from that direction would be naive.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:58:25 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: la-ex Subject: More of the story Message:

We have in the archives a report from someone that told us what happened when rawat got back from the pie incident. rawat was super angry and talked to fakiranand in hindi. no one understood hindi but them and really, even if rawat didnt say smash the guy, he vented his rage to fakiranand and fakiranand felt compelled to revenge. It was our lord who caused this by his reaction to fakiranand.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:05:47 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: bill Subject: Jim had a really logical theory about this Message:

that I felt made a lot of sense. Hey Jim, you lurking?....the sirens are calling you out of your exile. Nah, I will see if I can find it in the archives, it was excellent. Basically, Jim thinks M did tell Fakiranand to do it, I cannot recall the logic but what he said really made sense.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:13:46 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Susan Subject: Found it! Thanks to Rog! Message:

Here is more on Fakiranand from House of Drek with Jim's very credible theory. Jim's theory

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:39:23 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Susan Subject: the maha said to fakiranand: Message:

''I don't want you to hurt this man'' The obvious implication is that fakiranand took the all-too-willing premie along with him to do the dirty work. And very dirty it was too. (or has the Maha another spin on the phrase 'attempted murder'? - which it evidently was - so the plate in Pat Halley's skull would have us think).

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 17:53:46 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Susan Subject: 1)Donner's story rings true;2)DLM cash settlement? Message:

Michael Donner's story is consistent with what I saw and what Fakiranand told me: After a bunch of phone calls to/from DLM officials (and probably direction from m), Fakiranand left the Detroit ashram in civilian disguise by car for Chicago, where he left the country and never returned for any trial. I heard there was about a $100,000 settlement shortly afterwards. What did DLM do afterwards for Halley, and to cool the matter down? Anyone know the details? Maybe Way could ask Pat! Maybe Pat has a good copy of the photo that appeared in the newspapers of the pieing, too. (I think the photo was in Time magazine, too - August, 1973) Later, when I was at Millenium (Rainbow Inn), DLM honchos portrayed Fakiranand as the reincarnation of Hanuman, as if he were a mindless reincarnated primate or squirrel who would do anything imaginable or violent against a detractor of m. They told me he once broke a chair over a guy's head in India, after someone said something critical of m. At the time, I accepted their explanation because I had seen mahatma ji get furious when I dropped a little magazine picture of m. on the floor at the LA Wilton Place ashram. I was told he was sent back to India - as a mahatma still. But the whole Halley pie and revenge attack matter dropped right off the radar screen a little too easily, I thought (even then)... Peace, PS If anyone still lives in Detroit, the main library should have on microfilm the front page of the Detroit Free Press of August 8, 1973 - which can be printed out, then scanned and posted on this site.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 15:21:22 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Susan Subject: charanand/brick correction Message:

I heard the charanad/brick story from chararanand himself a few times. He and rawat and others were walking through a crowd that was throwing 'stones' and one of them hit charanand. Never did he say he saw a 'brick' coming and ran to 'catch it' with his back. Typical of humans to continually upgrade stories till they show the lord and devotees in greater glory and heroic acts.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:29:17 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Susan Subject: more from me Message:

I think this theory may be the joint creation of Drek, Joey and Jim, but I think it makes sense. Here is a synopsis: It is reported that the adolescent Lord came back from the pie in the face utterly furious. Fakiranand was there. He probably, English being his second language, yelled at Fakiranand in HINDI not English. After he got done telling Fakiranand in Hindi what his agya was, he then said calmy in English, 'don't hurt this man'..... Interesting that Fakiranand even told Halley that the idea to murder him wasn't Rawat's. Doesn't that seem a tad odd? Like 'doth protest too much'? Wonder what Rawat said to Fakiranand in Hindi. Actually, I do not wonder too much.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 14:20:16 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Susan Subject: more from me Message:

>Wonder what Rawat said to Fakiranand in Hindi. That was a crappy tasting pie! Of course interpretations can morph after 27 years. Now why is it that Halley was hit in the head yet he seems to have a cool attitude? The intent is to make him the poster guy for hate M, yet he closes his thoughtful message with 'Keep love and freedom in your mind'

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 17:40:24 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: X Subject: here's a theory... Message:

Now why is it that Halley was hit in the head yet he seems to have a cool attitude? Well, he had a very close encounter with the Perfect Master of our time. Imagine the grace to be so near our Lord in physical form. Of course when Mahatmaji took it upon himself to give Pat Knowledge, it was a manifestation of Maharaji's boundless love. How else could Pat possibly say 'Keep love and freedom in your mind.' Certainly it was his karma to dance this lila with the Lord in this lifetime and perhaps he was even Hanuman in a past life. Who knows? One thing is for sure: Pat Halley must have realized Knowledge when that crowbar struck his head. It's not for us to question the workings of the Lord. Or to even try and understand...

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 18:09:33 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: gerry Subject: great post Gerry! Message:

That is most certainly the explanation. Olive branch?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 19:38:06 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Susan Subject: great post Gerry! Message:

How nice of you. Gladly accepted.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 16:25:59 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: X Subject: more from me too Message:

Or he could have said, hmm, maybe I am finally old enough to shave and this is a hint? Somehow Jim's theory works better. I do not think rawat is giving to self depricating humor when faced with humiliation. I think Halley seems like a very non bitter person too. That is a survival positive trait considering what he has been through.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:55:35 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: la-ex Subject: that is one scary story, Marianne read above Message:

you told me that story once before, I always hoped you would post it. I have always believed that our cult was not as far from the Scientologists and Jonestown as we thought, especially in the '70s. Thanks LA ex for posting that.

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 03:58:10 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Way Subject: Penthouse mag Message:

Way I'm waiting for that back issue of Penthouse to arrive from an ebay auction I won. I think I'll send it on to Pat(minus the girlie pix;) ) I believe there was also an article done in the New York review, at least there was a quote from it on the Lord of the Universe video referring to Pat's injuries. Anyone any knowledge of this? Oh well, back to the library microfilms! BTW the whole pie-throwing incident is shown on that LOTU VIDEO, (available from amazon - click link) along with Pat himself talking about it. You know what, I'm going to buy another copy and send it to him, its the least we can do for the guy! How about having a whip-round too, he's broke by the sounds of it? bazza

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 20:47:27 (GMT) From: cq Email: quartus@postmaster.co.uk To: Bazza Subject: LOTU vid Message:

Hey, Barry About six months ago a guy called John Brauns sent me his copy of the LOTU vid. I offered to pay him, but no response as yet. Perhaps I could send JB's copy to Pat? (on 2nd thoughts it was PAL, not NTSC). If I sent it to you, could you re-format it? (without copyright infringement, me being a member of the PRS, that is). PS, a recent post had me asking you if the Maha's satellite broadcasts could be recorded, so as to provide a 'before-and-after' comparison of what ended up on the EV newsletter. As an ex-BBC (sound)-man myself, perhaps we can talk turkey here (and I don't mean thanksgiving!) email me above. Chris

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 03:45:43 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Way Subject: Hey, Way, thanks so much for doing this! Message:

I'm glad Pat is still around - and I enjoyed the letter very much (he and Brian have some experiences in common - too bad Pat's not on-line :)! Thanks again - Katie

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 18:43:28 (GMT) From: Happy Email: None To: Way Subject: interesting story Message:

Thank you, Way, for providing Pat's letter. I guess it is now certified he was not hit with a hammer, but with a beragon (a yoga-danda, or a nada-danda, as they're called in India), since he writes: 'that I know it was his corporate people who ordered I be killed, (this I was told by Jupteswar Mishra, one of those who crushed my skull with a crow-bar).' It is also clear that Pat knows it was an attempt to kill him. Attempted murder. Nothing less. It wil be very interesting to hear his response to the Penthouse-article. Way, can you ask him a few more details, like, how badly was he hurt? How long did he have to stay in the hospital? Is he ok now? Was he ever threatened again? Is the name Fakiranand familiar to him? Does he know anything about the fact that Rawat ordered Fakiranand out of the country in order to save his ass?

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 00:42:17 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Happy Subject: wasn't there a cash settlement? nt Message:

mt

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Date: Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 18:17:55 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Way Subject: Here's the article Message:

It's on a permanent page: I See the Light I'm going to add Pat's comments asap. JM

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 22:35:12 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Halley's Comet: YES, Please add his letter! Message:

J-M, Halley turned out to be a righteous loving dude, after all. Probably more spiritually evolved than m., too, huh?! What irony! Peace, PS During the holidays I may open my old trunks and boxes and dig up any old relics worth scanning, and also do the planes intro. [My work has taken up too much of my energy and concentration lately.]

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Date: Tues, Dec 05, 2000 at 03:03:32 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Shit!!!! Message:

I knew Rick Fletcher well! I completely forgot that he once mentioned to me that he was involved in this! How did I forget that?

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 17:57:00 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Everyone Subject: These responses Message:

I have printed off some of these posts (the ones with questions) and I will send them snail-mail to Pat, since he has an aversion to chat lines.

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Date: Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 22:41:50 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Way Subject: Way to go! Thanks. nt Message:

nt

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