Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 14:20:51 (GMT)
From: Nov 22, 2000 To: Dec 10, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


shp -:- Response to Danny from Beyond the InactiveArchives -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 18:19:21 (GMT)
__ Danny -:- Didn't show up properly, trying again... -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 23:20:36 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Pass the barf bags -:- Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 20:08:09 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- More reply to Danny with request for comment -:- Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 19:02:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Re. the 'Most Powerful Being in the Universe' ... -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 19:07:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Empty post Alert (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 19:25:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Thanks Gerry, I'll try again -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 19:47:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- More reply to Danny with request for comment, cont -:- Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 19:06:19 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- We live in the Time of Lies......... -:- Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 02:22:22 (GMT)
__ Danny -:- Back Atcha -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 22:06:16 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Well at last one other half articulate premie, -:- Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 08:25:34 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- Back Atcha -:- Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 04:07:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Danny -:- Back To You -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 07:07:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- Back To You -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 16:53:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Danny -:- Back To You (Pt. 2) Some was missing before. -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 07:17:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Your imagination stinks -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 16:39:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- DANNY - SUSAN'S POST DESERVES A RESPONSE (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 20:32:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Thanks, Danny, but... -:- Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 17:54:19 (GMT)
__ __ Danny -:- The missing text, I hope -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 23:27:10 (GMT)
__ __ Danny -:- There's a lot of text missing from my post -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 23:03:41 (GMT)
__ __ Danny -:- P.S. -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 22:12:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Just read your responses -:- Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 02:44:20 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Quite shp -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 18:37:43 (GMT)
__ Shp -:- I know it's a holiday weekend and you may be away, -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 15:55:09 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- Respect -nt- -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 10:25:27 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Go shp go nt -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 23:17:11 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- And stay, shp, stay...nt -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 23:38:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- You tell em shp, them nasty premies...nt -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 02:44:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Weren't you and shp and almost everyone else? nt -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 02:43:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- You got me there. -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 02:53:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- C'mon Salam ... you are not confused ... or alone -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 05:01:22 (GMT)

Yves -:- Elmer Gantry -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 18:06:46 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- Halleluiah... -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 20:51:40 (GMT)

Susan -:- reply to Danny( from inactive) -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 17:04:16 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- thanks for all those nice posts -:- Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 05:32:01 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- What pisses me off... -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 00:47:08 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- I agree - Danny pls read -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 01:53:47 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Danny is a cult spin doctor......... -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 23:05:58 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- Danny is a cult spin doctor......... -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 05:20:26 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Susan, I believe you -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 18:54:49 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Search engine watch -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 15:44:18 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Google -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 18:19:29 (GMT)
__ __ Gail -:- Google -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 18:50:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gail -:- Oops! I should have said DOGPILE.COM (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 18:52:41 (GMT)

Salam -:- To Bimbo -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 13:32:09 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- The rest of that post -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 17:12:56 (GMT)
__ __ sam -:- The rest of that post -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 06:48:19 (GMT)
__ __ Bimbo -:- A reply to Salem and Bazza -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 19:44:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- A reply to Salem and Bazza -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 01:38:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- A reply to the reply -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 01:07:09 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- To Bimbo -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 13:54:43 (GMT)
__ __ Bimbo -:- Anth, I already replied in a post below -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 18:50:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- My problem, your problem. -:- Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 19:21:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bimbo -:- You have no idea about my problem Anth -:- Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 22:46:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ fuck off and die you puke -:- I know what your problem is -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 17:08:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Bimbo: You are a coward -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 19:02:25 (GMT)
__ __ French dessert found -:- What about tomorrow's fiesta? (ot) -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 14:00:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- What about tomorrow's fiesta? (ot) -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 14:13:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ French dessert found -:- Previous post for Anth !!! (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 14:01:45 (GMT)

Mr Bubblehead -:- Lies, lies, lies...ot -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 04:16:22 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- That 84 year-old wasn't by any chance... -:- Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 04:34:21 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- a politician is... (ot) -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 15:19:58 (GMT)

Disculta -:- Replacing 'Knowledge' with gut knowing -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 00:00:41 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- Replacing 'Knowledge' with gut knowing -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 00:29:56 (GMT)

ulf -:- kids -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 21:03:39 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Parental duty -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 10:37:12 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Parental duty -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 11:39:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Personal Knowledge Session -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 13:17:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ulf -:- Kids -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 23:45:38 (GMT)

Monmot -:- Giving Thanks -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 20:07:43 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- wow, that was a great post! Thanks~ (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 08:01:21 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- thanks -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 22:33:54 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Thanks, Monmot -nt -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 22:06:12 (GMT)

Salam -:- DO NOT READ WITH COFFEE IN YOUR MOUTH -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 15:26:27 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- The basic Hindu negativity -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 12:51:28 (GMT)
__ bill -:- The basic Hindu negativity -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 21:16:28 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- The Con Artist Formerly Known As M Is Steeped In -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 12:41:31 (GMT)
__ JTF -:- Beware: whenever an 'ism' exists.... -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:06:06 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- The basic Hindu negativity -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 13:58:00 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- isms -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 20:06:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- isms -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 19:45:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Nop -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 08:26:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim G -:- isms -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 20:29:39 (GMT)

Salam -:- Does EV have a Black List -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 00:59:19 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Visions Does, I Just Found Out -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 03:42:33 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- EV Is A Black List nt -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 12:14:24 (GMT)
__ __ Curious George -:- Put in front with the bodyguards -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 02:20:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Put in front with Sampuranand and Marolyn -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 05:11:34 (GMT)
__ FA -:- Does EV have a Black List -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 05:37:04 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Ha Ha, another one bytes the dust. -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 13:33:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- LOL :) nt -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:05:01 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Does EV have a Black List -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 09:09:56 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- Does EV have a Black List - Yes it does -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 05:50:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Does EV have a Black List - Yes it does -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 18:41:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Does EV have a Black List - Yes it does -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 12:17:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Real names -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 18:42:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Real names -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 00:05:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- I'm curious -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 09:18:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill burke -:- Does EV have a Black List - Yes it does -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 06:08:29 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Does EV have a Black List -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 05:36:02 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Black List for Events? -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:27:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- Black List et answer to Tonette Q. -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 19:18:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Black List et answer to Tonette Q. -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 04:32:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- zeroing in on a bongo -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 21:04:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- zeroing in on a bongo -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 16:52:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- great story, Janet -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 01:09:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- goddamned janet I remember that -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 21:48:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Curious George -:- I remember that too! How weird! -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 02:28:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks so much for that info -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 19:24:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ DV -:- I'd like to go to an event too. -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:40:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- I'd like to go to an event too. -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 16:28:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- I'd like to go to an event too. -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:43:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I can tell you about what I felt last time -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 18:21:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- and also -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 18:23:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Curious George -:- The king is in his altogether, as naked as the day -:- Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 02:38:57 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Something to gossip about -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 09:18:01 (GMT)

aussi ji -:- solid proof at last -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 23:41:46 (GMT)
__ solid proof -:- solid proof at last -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 11:28:24 (GMT)
__ __ aussi ji -:- solid proof at last -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 19:56:07 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- The Lord thing. -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 08:59:09 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- It was the same for me Anth -:- Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 08:55:26 (GMT)
__ __ aussi ji -:- The Lord thing. -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 19:49:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Waht with all the Ii and the Iii..nt -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 08:33:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- wot are you on Salam? nt -:- Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 19:16:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ aussi ji -:- Waht with all the Ii and the Iii..nt -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 22:17:50 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- going through all the motions -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 18:46:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Premie revisionism -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 21:23:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Cee/You/En/Tee, what's that spell, -:- Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 09:06:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Premie revisionism -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 08:38:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Premie revisionism -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 23:35:01 (GMT)

Marianne -:- Jones lost it bec. of ex-Peoples Temple members -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 23:39:37 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Jones lost it bec. of ex-Peoples Temple members -:- Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 13:23:55 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- Jones lost it bec. of ex-Peoples Temple members -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 20:35:32 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- The similarities are just too much -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 10:04:23 (GMT)
__ Buzz -:- Addia Da -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 06:36:24 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- another great post Marianne (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 02:12:05 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Jones lost it bec. of ex-Peoples Temple members -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 01:40:10 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- You miss my point -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 01:47:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Marianne! -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:23:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- You miss my point -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 02:11:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- M reads it all -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 02:41:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- M reads it all -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 16:29:10 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- yer scarin' me, Marianne -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 00:38:49 (GMT)

Dumb Premie -:- You forgot -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 18:37:18 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- I left it... -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 08:35:41 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Ouch!!! -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 08:42:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Dangle a carrott why don't you? nt -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 10:06:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Apology...I really didn't mean -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 10:48:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- So far so good -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 08:51:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Seen or used Euros yet?(NT) -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 10:52:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Seen or used Euros yet?(NT) -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 15:16:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ the dude -:- You get paid in euro's!!!!!!! -:- Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 23:44:54 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- You forgot -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 22:09:06 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Sir Dave, I love your new ''signature''...:))nt -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 22:29:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Sir Dave, I love your new ''signature''...:))nt -:- Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 23:46:40 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Nope - I have it !! (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 19:04:38 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 18:19:21 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Danny and anyone else
Subject: Response to Danny from Beyond the InactiveArchives
Message:
Danny,

I have copied your post from the inactive files and am inserting responses as noted:

I hear your cry for help and I feel your anguish. I won't presume to tell you what I think YOU should think or do (other than 'try not to screw it up with your lovely wife') and I'm sure whatever I say will be unpopular here. -danny

You can only feel something like someone else's anguiush if you have felt it too. Want to talk about it here? As for how I deal with my wife, mind your own business. As for being unpopular here, why are you so sure? You think everyone here is just messed up and all in the same basket? I don't. I think there are some real nasty people here who have bones to pick with Maharaji that I don't think are valid...or at least I think they are approaching it all wrong to ever hope to get any answers. Maybe they are just so frustrated from being stonewalled that they are off the deep end by now. I also think there are some people here who have some very very valid complaints and have not been responded to in an equitable and compassionate manner.
-sandy

That doesn't matter one iota to me as I feel this place is a fairly obvious vortex where there is tremendous pressure to conform, agree and attack. -danny

Believe me when I tell ya that what you have just described is pretty much what I have experienced with premies, too. This place, the ex site, has turned out to be a slice of life, a microcosm of humanity, complete with a percentage of assholes and also a percentage of peaceful articulate folks, all of whom happen to share the belief that Maharaji is less than he is advertising himself to be, or less than the advertising arms of his organizations are advertising him to be, and have advertised him to be over the years. This vortex here is nothing compared to the vortex of fear and worry created by Maharaji's own words, over the thought of breaking into a million pieces or becoming a vessel of rotting veggies, or GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL if one strays from the prescribed way. I have personally been the target of 'tremendous pressure to conform, agree' and was attacked verbally by another premie for something I said after a local program. This happened way before I ever came here and it happened in the presence of an Indian instructor who allowed another premie to verbally bully me in the presence of other premies, and said/did nothing about it, other than to say to just drop it. Bullshit, I say. And if you are as experienced as you suggest, you know that pressure to conform, agree and attacks were routine in many of Maharaji's ashrams. -sandy

You have been relentlessly and systematically abused and berated by the same people that are 'here for you' if and when you are swallowed into their belief system, (mis)perception and world view. -danny

You are suggesting that I am buckling under the abuse and berating of the people here? You don't know me very well.
You speak as if I am being beaten like a slice of veal only to be digested by them as soon as I have been tendereized to perfection. Swallowed up indeed. You give me no more credit for being able to think/feel this out than a piece of meat. Yet you want to persuade me to see it your way. -sandy

Tell me, Danny, and this is really important to me. Are you here posting to me on your own or were you given me as an assignment?
Either answer me truly and plainly or disregard the question.
No bullshit or doubletalk. -sandy

I'm merely gonna attempt to give you a bulletin from the present, not one of the myriad spots that any well-meaning person can get stuck in along the way. Popular examples of this syndrome include: Were the ashrams closed properly in 1982; what was it
Maharaji said about vegetarianism when he was 12?; what did Randy Prouty tell M about Susan 20 years ago? (that, I happen to know the answer to...nothing, zilch, nada); -danny

The needle sticks at your minimalization of the continuous, transcontinental, unchecked child abuse committed by one of Maharaji's most trusted and closest people, an instructor.
You gotta put yourself in their shoes, Danny, you gotta empathize, to answer this with any real sincerity. I don't think Maharaji reveled in or endorsed child abuse, but the fact that one his own personal representatives engaged in such activity for so long under his nose unstopped for so long does not speak well of the discernemnt and the sight of the teacher, no disrespect intended to anyone, just common sense, which Maharaji used to say was so uncommon. My folks taught me common sense. Any uninterested or neutral passerby or bystander appraoched with this scenario would say the same thing, IMHO, and that would be that something is definitely not right. It is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer, as I see it. -sandy

was it technically a crime to listen to Peter Frampton whilst having and sharing one's after-dinner herb in 1977, particularly since Frampton-specific taste statutes weren't enacted 'til much later at the birth of Punk, well after Pete's album was the biggest in the world? -danny

I was hot on my spiritual searching in the 70's, not into Frampton or weed at the time. I happen to see nothing wrong with either. But I do have a problem with spiritual hypocrisy. Unless one buys the whole Perfect Master thing lock, stock and barrel, in other words, gives the Master carte blanche in all realms to make and break any and all rules and still be the Master, things begin to unravel. -sandy

But I digress. -danny

No, you don't. It's all connected. -sandy

I just spent 10 days in India with Maharaji, both up-close and in general, at the event. He was magnificent. He was pretty much exactly the same character he's always been, irrespective of title, era or belief template. I was strongly inspired and deeply moved by the timeless, placeless, wisdom and clarity that effortlessly poured out of him. So were the 100,000 or so people ( a group so large it was quite mind-bending to even look at)
who were dancing, weeping, laughing and shining under the Indian moonlight. -danny

Been there, done that, only not in India. -sandy

This wasn't the largely homogenous, whiny lil' bunch that you see on this page... -danny

I think you are being an asshole to lump everyone here into a 'whiny lil' bunch' and not acknowledge that anyone here has a legitimate problem with Maharaji or EV/DLM. I think it's subtle peeer pressure from you to get with the bigger group that's having more fun or something. -sandy

there were long white-bearded grandpa/sages who have known the kid since he was 8, beautiful, soulful women in outrageous outfits...some incomprehensibly poor people as happy as clams...Oxford-educated Brahmin professors... -danny

Sounds like a beautiful picture, but none of it means a thing in this context. I have been in such crowds, but not in India. -sandy

There were an additional 32,000 people who received knowledge afterwards and the looks on their faces as they walked out would have silenced even the most Heller-ish of cynics. To put that in a little perspective, 32 would be an exaggeration of the number
typically writing here. -danny

Numbers mean nothing in this context. The 'mine is bigger than yours' argument is just SO immature, dontcha think in hindsight?
Members of the world's organized religions might come up to premies with the same argument about numbers...how would you respond to them if faced with the same point you are trying to make with me here? -sandy

An enormous gamut of humanity, deeply and INDIVIDUALLY touched by this guy in the chair. He was beautiful to me and I saw him connecting, one-on-one to all kinds of people. All speculation aside, you could see where he was just by looking at his face. The most centrally located person I've ever seen. -danny

I have experienced the same things you describe. Like I have said, I have never been personally abused or mistreated by him directly, but I am now aware of many hurt people who were just as devoted and sincere as I am, but were totally turned off by either his own behavior or the unchecked and unresolved misbehavior of one of his agents or organizations. We are his hands and feet, remember? You would think that he had the control and coordination of his own hands and feet to call them that and do things to his own premies that would benefit them.
Now that some shit has hit the fan, he has nothing to do with the problems. It's someone else's responsibility, someone else's fault. Something doesn't ring true here. -sandy

He sits on a wealth of joy (not a mere joy of wealth), so huge and so tangible, that merely by showing up someplace, anyplace in the world, actually, his presence sparks off that same inexhaustible supply in those lucky enough to be there. -danny

Charisma is an amazing thing. I have been around many folks who have it. They are not all divine, although some claim to be.
Yes, I have felt the same thing you describe from Maharaji, but now I wonder about it. Some very high beings, including Maharaji, may be wowing human beings like a city slicker can con a hick, with all sorts of amazing brainwave tricks that can be imparted to a willing subject. I need to go deeper and ask from an even more inner place for guidance. Lots of static out here,
lots of good guy/bad guy stuff going on right here. Many teachers I have had including Maharaji are now being accused of having some serious problems in their personnel or personal actions, he's not the only one going through this sort of scrutiny on the internet. I always wanted to give my loyalty to
the Real Thing and still do, both inside me and out in the world. -sandy

Who else here has that ability? Michael Dettmers? Anybody remember his speeches? And though clearly an intelligent, competent guy, I can say that I was around you peripherally for years, Michael, and you never gave me so much as the time of day.
That mastery, that you said you witnessed too many times to count? I saw it in action over and over again...and that was within the last 2 weeks. Your statement that Maharaji didn't care about his work is the single most bogus thing you've yet uttered. I don't know ANYONE, who has been in the daunting position of trying to keep up with him as he goes about what he does, who wouldn't laugh at that. Perhaps you're just enjoying your new amen choir. You should go back and read your own words for
some perspective.

That mastery has nothing to do with after-dinner cognac, aircraft, money, Peter Frampton, plumbing fixtures or titles. It's there of its own accord and I've never seen any pretense or extra effort to MAKE it be there. Compared to what he's radiating, the sum total of what I read/feel from this page is like one mid-sized cow fart.

I know Maharaji's had his 'wilder' times, especially in the past. So have I. So have you. So would, I'd imagine, most everybody reading this. So have both candidates for President and most people of the last few generations. Before you get too
sanctimonius, ask yourself how spotless (conceptually, of course) you are. I do recall seeing the pictures of the London Latvian night only to notice that the people taking great delight in calling Maharaji a fat drinker were, in fact.....(drum roll) f-- d------s

So why was Maharaji just in India, inspiring and helping those people, many of whom have been with him for much of their lives? To pick up some cash? To smoke some cigarettes? To have a couple of cognacs? To enjoy the lovely vacation-like atmosphere in Mr. Magoo-like Delhi? Or to listen to some more Frampton?

Certainly not to foster an extraordinary experience for a poor guy or woman, sitting in a field in the middle of nowhere.

This idea that it's all about $ and greed is so facile and one-dimensional that I'm surprised so many of you swallow it. The FIRST DAY Maharaji was in the West, he was toodling around in a Rolls-Royce. His predilection for the absolute finest stuff in all areas has never been hidden nor hypocritical. It's been right out in the open. It's only if you believe that what he's doing has no value that all of that starts to look fishy. He's
always been able to easily separate the toys from his teaching. He clearly sees no dichotomy in it, though some people have. That's nothing new. It has no bearing on his validity as a Master or the reality of his teachings. -danny

If you have stuff to duke out with Michael Dettmers, I suggest you do it directly with him. I will watch attentively. -sandy

Anyway, Sandy, forgive my off-ramps to Dettmers and others. I hope you can hear what I'm saying. A wise person once said something about bloopers and outtakes...try not to confuse them for the main event. -danny

If Mahraji indentified the bloopers and outtakes, the sick mathatmas and the corrupt assisstants, previous claims to Deity, the wild times and the crazy activities for what they were, and did not deny them...if he corrected the hurt and the wrongs committed in these 'bloopers and outtakes', so we could all have a good laugh and not just the x-rated premies gazing at the Pacific with the sunset reflecting into the smoke filled den on Trancas Canyon Drive, I might have an easier time swallowing your line and lure. -sandy

By the way, would you have wanted to stay in that field for a few more days if you weren't having the time of your life? -danny

That's not the question. Question is, why would the Master set up his devotees to fail in the world and lose a job just to have a few more hours together? So he could crack on us in his satsang at the next program? So the most devoted ones who gave it all up and took him at his word could be put on the bongo list and not allowed anywhere close to him? So those shunned bongos could stare at the backs of designer suits and coiffed hairdos of the elite, the x-rated premies with the $cratch, and perpetually wonder what the hell is going on? -sandy

Wadi-not in college... -danny

But she could be in a flash and money would not be an object.
That's the point...he poo-poo'ed college education to the premies and now he has the scratch to send his kids wherever they want to go. -sandy

résumé-up to you... -danny

Again, you conveniently miss the point. A big reason for my job history is due to the attitude I adopted based on Maharaji's attitude toward worldly jobs and 'the little bosses'. I don't blame him for anything. I'm just tracing the problem, troubleshooting the situation. I'm a big boy. I bought it. It's mine to deal with. I had the goofy notion that what a Master says is true yesterday, today, and forever. Silly me.
All these revisions....I just don't get it. -sandy

how to finance college?-same dilemma for everybody.... -danny

Once again, you missed it. If Maharaji had said to plan ahead for your kids instead of not worry about the 'little boss', many of us would have taken our careers more seriously and this would have ultimately benefitted Maharaji with more steady, solvent premie families with kids who felt like they were covered and being looked after by responsible adults who cared about them...
and not some of these horror stories about premie kids that are coming out. -sandy

marry it-I agree with you, not funny. -danny

Tell him, not me. -sandy

As of November 21, 2000, the actual experience of what Maharaji calls Knowledge, remains the sweetest, strongest, loveliest and most lasting internal experience I've had. It can't be remembered, only tasted. It also has nothing to do with snot.
-danny

I have nothing but good things to say about my experience with Knowledge. And I agree that it has nothing to do with snot, which never tasted so good. I have no quarrel with Knowledge.
My problem is with the hurtful and very real paradoxes and contradicitons that many of OUR brother and sister premies who have since left were subjected to. -sandy

As of November 21, 2000, Maharaji remains, by far, the most amazing person I have ever encountered...and I have encountered quite a few amazing people, including a few of those who are acknowledged 'masters' and heroes in their various domains of
expertise. -danny

No comment. Your experience is your experience. -sandy

I look forward to your further correspondence.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 23:20:36 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Didn't show up properly, trying again...
Message:
Hi Sandy,

Greetings from your neighborhood Nobody, Evil Spin Doctor and Bastard whose words carry no weight and whose observations and experiences don't count because they're (shudder) positive.

You're right. I'll try to tune all of that out and respond to you, to whom I was writing in the first place.

To answer your underlined question first, nobody 'assigned' you to me (as if such a thing existed), I wrote all on my lonesome. I definitely have a soft spot for you, that's why I responded. That soft spot is based on reading your valiant efforts to remain true to yourself in the face of enormous abuse and pressure here and, I'd imagine, in the 'premie world' as well. I don't have a great deal of respect for either 'world', ex or premie, to put it bluntly. I also remember you from actual real life, something I won't go into in a hostile, public environment.

I thought I saw you in India and was walking toward you to say hi when I realized it was another, follicularly minimalist dude. But that put you in my frontal lobe. Before going there, I had looked right in the face of this site, reading the Journeys, hearing the complaints and trying to feel the difference between the legitimate gripes and the heavy doses of spin that are often applied.

Then I went to India, looked right in Maharaji's face and felt where he was and what was emanating from him. I'll stop right there as I now realize that descriptions of my beautiful adventures in India are about as welcome here as giving a speech on the glory of dimpled chads at Republican headquarters.

Connection between the two images of Maharaji? None.

I also hadn't grokked quite how bleak your outlook is on all this at this moment 'til I read a few other of your comments... Forgive me if this sounds harsh but if you chew on other people's undigested food long enough and often enough, don't be surprised if you get indigestion. No matter how strong and self-contained you may be.

Anway, that's the background...came back from India well and truly blasted and inspired and looked in here and read the old same-old, same-old, moldy, regurgitated, undigested material and kinda went huhhhh?

I didn't write to you, nor am I here, to duel with anybody's doubts. When people and events are looked at through the filter of doubt,, it ALL looks screwy. That's true of any relationship as well....friends, lovers, bosses (little or big). I've, at different times, seen family members, girlfriends and yes, gurus through a warped prism, and it ain't pretty.

It also ain't necessarily the truth. At the very least, it's a skewed, incomplete picture.

I don't have the time nor inclination to go through every word here if it's to be met with a 'yeah, but what about this, huh?' attitude.

I'm a guy whose life is just as real, valid and valuable as anyone's here. This is not a form letter from a committee of robots. This is written by someone who cared enough to try and offer a different perspective, even though any perspective that doesn't vomit all over Maharaji is hardly welcomed here. The sign at the top of the page, if it were even half way honest and accurate, would read, Anything and Everything about Maharaji that is Intended to Make Him Look Bad While Blaming Him for Any Problem Anyone Associated with Him May Ever Have Had, Excluding or Revising any Memory or Mention of Any Qualities He Has or Any Wonderful Experiences Anybody Ever Had With Him.

That's how I feel.

Now, to respond to few of your points, Sandy. I don't have time to go through all of them.

Shp - 'You can only feel something like someone else's anguish if you have felt it too.

Danny - I have but I won't pretend to feel anguish or doubt in the present when it's not there.

Shp - Want to talk about it here?

Danny - No way, José.

Shp - As for being unpopular here, why are you so sure?

Danny - Check the responses. Read the responses to you when you expressed anything but doubt.

Shp - You think everyone here is just messed up and all in the same basket?

Danny - No. I think some are pretty messed up, some are sincere, some are destructive. I see different baskets. Same goes for the premie 'world', though it seems considerably kinder. Groupthink is somewhat frightening to me in any form.

Shp - 'This vortex here is nothing compared to the vortex of fear and worry created by Maharaji's own words, over the thought of breaking into a million pieces or becoming a vessel of rotting veggies, or GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL if one strays from the prescribed way.'

Danny - I disagree entirely. You select the few sequences of words over a 30-year period that sound anything like that and I can't imagine that your memory has deteriorated to the point that you believe that this has EVER been the essence, point or vibe of the way Maharaji teaches. He is anything but fear-based in his approach. If someone fears him, that's a different matter. This idea of him as the tyrant? I'm sorry, I've been around him for decades and I've never seen it. I just don't buy it, Sandy.

Shp - 'if you are as experienced as you suggest, you know that pressure to conform, agree and attacks were routine in many of Maharaji's ashrams.'

Danny - I was in the ashram. Pressure to agree and comform, yes. Attack, no. I, like most people I know being a rebel by nature, resisted the kind of 'dear brother, pass the lentils...and quietly' mentality that I'm sure is endemic to monastic situations. I was aware of it and tried to limit my conformity to the schedule, etc. I can't deny that I got a lot out of the structure of the situation...it was like training wheels, in a sense. When it was over, it was clearly over.

Shp - 'You give me no more credit for being able to think/feel this out than a piece of meat.

Danny - No. It just feels like you're dealing with a highly selective and twisted picture and trying to make sense of it. From that angle, I don't think it will ever make sense.

Shp - “Yet you want to persuade me to see it your way.”

Danny - God, no. Persuasion is meaningless. Anything someone can be persuaded in to, they can be persuaded right out of. You have to come to your own peace about all this. Yours, not mine or Marianne's or Michael Dettmers'. Yours.

Shp - 'You gotta put yourself in their shoes, Danny, you gotta empathize, to answer this with any real sincerity. I don't think Maharaji reveled in or endorsed child abuse.'

I can empathize with Susan's situation, though I don't know her and really don't know what went on 20 years ago. What I can't empathize with and what sickens me, is the way that others have used this merely as an excuse to 'stick it' to Maharaji. As with the trumpeting of some guy's suicide who was even described as quite nutty and who showed up demanding to be let into the ashram. And the sanctimonius 'Our Dear Brother' headlines about this 'unknown soldier.' What is that? What noble place does that come from? You tell me. My intuition tells me that she's telling the truth about Jagdeo but I also know that Mahatmas that misbehaved in any way were shipped right out and de-saffroned. I also know that she assumes that Maharaji was told about this and one of the two people she's sure told him, didn't. I also know that about 40 people, this year, including all the Unity School people, were interviewed about this and not a single one had heard anything about this at the time. Nor had I and I was around.

So, sounds to me like something's missing in this story. You think anybody had anything to gain by protecting Jagdeo? I don't. And I'm sure neither Randy nor Judy would knowingly risk the safety of children to protect one guy. He'd be outta there on his ass so fast you wouldn't even see him spinning. And no, Jethro, I didn't see him in India.

And Susan, I didn't say you had demonized Randy & Judy, though others surely have. I tend to believe you though I don't know how you characterized these incidents 20 years ago. It certainly is possible that you've built up, justifiably, a head of steam about it over the years that might not match in urgency what you said at the time. That's just a theory as I don't know you, so I'll shut my trap. Anyway, I'm very sorry whatever happened, happened.

To my description of how outrageous the event in India was and the rest of what noone wants to hear, you said,

Shp - 'Been there, done that, only not in India.'

Danny - Minimizing the beauty a little bit, Sandy? Maximizing the ugly or doubtful, possibly?

Shp - 'I think you are being an asshole to lump everyone here into a 'whiny lil' bunch' and not acknowledge that anyone here has a legitimate problem with Maharaji or EV/DLM.

Danny - Busted (head down). You're probably right. I should note that for reasons of clarity and mental health, I've always separated Maharaji from EV/DLM and various organizers. That's helped me. I have a built-in distrust of organizations and I've seen absolutely nothing in my lifetime to dissuade me from that view.

Shp - 'Numbers mean nothing in this context.'

Danny - True, but I really didn't mean the numbers to be a major thing...only in relation to...

Shp - 'I am now aware of many hurt people who were just as devoted and sincere as I am'

Danny - You should be aware, for perspective's sake, that there ARE many people have been helped and inspired by Maharaji, and who love him. 'Hurt' doesn't even enter the picture. It's not a mine is bigger than yours thing and I'm sorry if it read that way.

Shp - ' I always wanted to give my loyalty to the Real Thing and still do, both inside me and out in the world.'

Danny - If you follow that as your gut-check, you'll be fine.

Shp - 'Question is, why would the Master set up his devotees to fail in the world and lose a job just to have a few more hours
together?'

Danny - Sorry, Sandy. This doesn't sound like what was happening at all. It was clearly for the joy, in both directions. I'm sure Maharaji wasn't hoping for people to fail. By the way, how does that dovetail with the ever-popular, deeply perceptive, it's all for the $ theory?

Shp - 'premie families with kids who felt like they were covered and being looked after by responsible adults who cared about them...and not some of these horror stories about premie kids that are coming out.'

Danny - In my experience, the premie kids, by and large, are some of the most beautiful, well-rounded kids I've ever met, including those whose parents now denounce Maharaji, though their kids were brought up in that atmosphere. Deadbeat parents, whoever they are, are a disgrace.

Lastly (whewww), in another place, you wrote,

Shp - 'The true Creator hears the sincere cry from one heart of one of his creatures and will cross the Universe to answer that cry, using all the atoms and molecules and creatures at His disposal to respond so that the needy heart knows it is the real answer it is feeling. Fairy tales? I think not.

This is the truest thing you have written. A gentle suggestion...You might have to be looking up, not down, to catch that response.

Danny

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Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 20:08:09 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Pass the barf bags
Message:
“Then I went to India, looked right in Maharaji's face and felt where he was and what was emanating from him. “

No Danny, don't stop, tell us please- all that Diving Love and Grace from the Perfect Master right? (Tell me if I'm wrong).

Danny this is brainwashed, sychophantic cult shit. It feels like you’ve walked into our local bar and puked on the floor.

Why don't you fuck off back under your blanket and shove your thumbs in your ears.

Anth the falling wax

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Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 19:02:55 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: More reply to Danny with request for comment
Message:
Greetings from your neighborhood Nobody, Evil Spin Doctor and Bastard whose words carry no weight and whose observations and experiences don't count because they're (shudder) positive.
-Danny

So Danny, what did you expect on this site? Don't be naive or act thin-skinned. Remember, someone with Maharaji's grace can go anywhere in this world. Your cynicism is inappropriate in this venue. You are not being ostracized for being positive. You are being ostracized for fronting something and someone that carries with the program some painfully obvious contradictions for many people here who have been caught in the cogs. You can maintain your position here without feeling the slings and arrows. But down-home honesty and truth must be your sheild or you will definitely feel the barbs. And if you have hung with Maharaji for over 30 years, you know how to tread water anywhere, I'd imagine. -Sandy

You're right. I'll try to tune all of that out and respond to you, to whom I was writing in the first place. -Danny

I used to bitch about the same thing, but this IS a Forum. Sometimes folks just show up on a thread to add fuel to the flames which I don't like either, but other times folks show up to get into the conversation. And sometimes those folks have some very old stuff that never got cleared up, hence the warmed over bad vibes. We are guests here, so I suggest we play by the rules or go elsewhere, but no bitching about it. If you want to deal direct, you have my e-mail.

By the way, I look around and I don't see any other premies getting involved here or banging heads or being straight with some of the people and issues here. I used to have some real problems with that, like the silent peeer pressure of not being where I was 'supposed' to be, and probably sticking out like a sore thumb on the monitors of the EV watchers and lurkers. But you know what, yea, though I walk through valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil...and that goes for any other valleys too. If God is God, and I believe He is and I am one of his sons, I can go anywhere and be protected. Question is, protected from what? Susan and Abi's parents thought they were protected too. And that is the most illustrative example of the crux of the issue here. -Sandy

To answer your underlined question first, nobody 'assigned' you to me (as if such a thing existed), I wrote all on my lonesome. I definitely have a soft spot for you, that's why I responded. That soft spot is based on reading your valiant efforts to remain true to yourself in the face of enormous abuse and pressure here and, I'd imagine, in the 'premie world' as well. I don't have a great deal of respect for either 'world', ex or premie, to put it bluntly. I also remember you from actual real life, something I won't go into in a hostile, public environment. -Danny

As much as my gut tells me you are here on your own, how do you expect others here to believe this or anything you say, now that Michael Dettmers has spoken of the 'x-rated premies' who would pretty much do and say whatever to 'protect'? You have ID'd yourself as an old premie 30+ years, with access to inside information about stuff like what Randy knew or did not know about something 20 years ago. You reek of 'x-ness', no offense.

And why not have reason to respect the world of premies? Why all the dysfunction? Knowledge is supposed to make us all perfect, so why the ongoing, ever widening dysfunction? Why the badmouthing of the world of premies...on the contrary, that should be the place where it feels the best, second only to being inside or in the presence of the Master, dontcha think? I don't subscribe to the template of Maharaji being Moe and all the other premies being Curly and Larry, constantly being blamed and smacked around for anything that goes wrong. -Sandy
I thought I saw you in India and was walking toward you to say hi when I realized it was another, follicularly minimalist dude.
But that put you in my frontal lobe. Before going there, I had looked right in the face of this site, reading the Journeys, hearing the complaints and trying to feel the difference between the legitimate gripes and the heavy doses of spin that are often applied. -Danny

I thnk that is brotherly, premie-like, and worthy use of your time, to watch your premie brothers' and sisters' backs, if you feel it in your heart that they got the shaft in any way from their association with Maharaji or EV/DLM. It doesn't have to be a witch hunt or a cyber lynching. You have to tune out the noisemakers, but I understand their place too. In evolution, a critter develops a loud shreik to warn others or to defend itself from something that has hurt it or invaded its space, not just to make noise. I think beneath the crust of hurt and disillusionment, there is a cry for the truth here, the whole truth. -Sandy

Then I went to India, looked right in Maharaji's face and felt where he was and what was emanating from him. I'll stop right there as I now realize that descriptions of my beautiful adventures in India are about as welcome here as giving a speech on the glory of dimpled chads at Republican headquarters.
-Danny

I can relate. But what you saw and felt in India and in his face are not what we are talking about here. When we had that party at the Grand Hyatt in NYC many years ago, I was there with my wife. I felt like an idiot because the only tux that was available was a few sizes too small and my ankles and wrists were sticking out. I felt like a nerdy Jerry Lewis character while everone else around me looked great, including my wife. So there I was, with the Knowledge of God vibrating in me, and I was all fucked up about a stupid suit of clothes and how poorly it fit and how uncomfortable it was. Then Maharaji and I crossed paths in an open area near the dance floor and he just looked at me totally smiling and said 'HI!' with the innocence and freshness of a little kid having a ball at his party. In that context, it was bliss, being paid attention to by the Master, and being liftred out of a stupid bummer about clothes. It was real and genuine, but now I realize that he may have been high and therefore in a very good mood and what I felt was a contact buzz. That's OK too, but not the same as the pure high I thought I was getting from the Master. I can feel the other thing in the privacy of my own home or with friends, just like or anyone else can. -Sandy

Connection between the two images of Maharaji? None. -Danny

You know the Buddhist calendars with the many manifestations of the Buddha all around the border, from sublime to demonic? You know the Krishna pictures witht he infinite faces extending in both directions from the central face? All the faces are connected. God is in it all of it or in none of it, or that is what we have been told. -Sandy

I also hadn't grokked quite how bleak your outlook is on all this at this moment 'til I read a few other of your comments... Forgive me if this sounds harsh but if you chew on other people's undigested food long enough and often enough, don't be surprised if you get indigestion. No matter how strong and self-contained you may be. -Danny

Bleak is a realtive term. If I am getting to the truth and hit some bad terrain, the bumps are worth going over to get to the smooth way. As for eating other's undigested food, I already addressed that in another post. Just to add, whenever any of us have dialog with anyone, we are all sampling the pre-chewed ideas and concepts and yes sometimes even pseudo-satsangs of someone else. This is not exclusive to this site. -Sandy

Anway, that's the background...came back from India well and truly blasted and inspired and looked in here and read the old same-old, same-old, moldy, regurgitated, undigested material and kinda went huhhhh? -Danny

Is it possible, Danny, that some premies got unrighteously hurt
in a variety of ways in the wake of Maharaji's mission? And is it possible that those hurts were inflicted by Maharaji's own representatives and organizations which he personally set up and oversees, either up close or from a distance? And is it possible that some of these hurts are so deep and so devisive that they have festered and become infected because of no response from either Maharaji or any of the organizsations? And is it possible that ANY of these people have even ONE valid gripe?

You never answered me how you would have responded if Susan or Abi were your kid and you found all this out after the fact? Would you still be blown away by his face in the Indian moonlight if you knew that one of his mahatmas had messed with your kids
and many others over a period of years on at least two continents? Like I said, I am not here to hurt or mess with Maharaji or anyone else, but it is what it is. This isn't about getting a bad seat at a program... -Sandy

I didn't write to you, nor am I here, to duel with anybody's doubts. When people and events are looked at through the filter of doubt,, it ALL looks screwy. That's true of any relationship as well....friends, lovers, bosses (little or big). I've, at different times, seen family members, girlfriends and yes, gurus through a warped prism, and it ain't pretty. -Danny

But Danny, when you are looking through a good clean prism and it still looks screwy, you cannot just shove it under the rug because it doesn't fit in with the dominant cosmology. It is on the Akasha, whatever it looks like. -Sandy

It also ain't necessarily the truth. At the very least, it's a skewed, incomplete picture. I don't have the time nor inclination to go through every word here if it's to be met with a 'yeah, but what about this, huh?' attitude. -Danny

I can ask you 'what about this-or-that' without attitude. Two separate animals, the questions and the attitude. -Sandy

I'm a guy whose life is just as real, valid and valuable as anyone's here. This is not a form letter from a committee of robots. This is written by someone who cared enough to try and offer a different perspective, even though any perspective that doesn't vomit all over Maharaji is hardly welcomed here. The sign at the top of the page, if it were even half way honest and accurate, would read, Anything and Everything about Maharaji that
is Intended to Make Him Look Bad While Blaming Him for Any Problem Anyone Associated with Him May Ever Have Had, Excluding or Revising any Memory or Mention of Any Qualities He Has or Any Wonderful Experiences Anybody Ever Had With Him. -Danny

I respect that your life is as valid as anyone's here. I suggest that you consider the people and experiences here in the same spirit that you want to be received, even if it isn't all roses and light. As for the advertising about this site, yes it is quite slanted. But try to understand, Danny. Is it any more slanted than 'opening up your heart to the Universe of Love', and getting molsested as a child?, or being threatened with hell and worse if you go away? Just as examples. Compassion, Danny, compassion. Feeling what someone else is feeling without you personally going through the same thing. Think about it. If you go to a restaurant and get great food and great service, fine. If someone else goes into the same place and gets lousy food and lousy service, that too is a real experience. You can't discount someone's else experience just because it does not agree with yours. Both events happened, however uncomfortable that is to deal with. -Sandy

That's how I feel.

Now, to respond to few of your points, Sandy. I don't have time to go through all of them.

Shp - You think everyone here is just messed up and all in the same basket?

Danny - No. I think some are pretty messed up, some are sincere, some are destructive. I see different baskets. Same goes for the premie 'world', though it seems considerably kinder. Groupthink is somewhat frightening to me in any form.

Sandy - So let's talk about the 'some' that you see as sincere for now. And keep away from either groupthink, premie or ex. Let's speak with our own voices and our own God-given intelligence and inspiration, not premie or ex-premie politcal correctness.

Shp - 'This vortex here is nothing compared to the vortex of fear and worry created by Maharaji's own words, over the thought of breaking into a million pieces or becoming a vessel of rotting veggies, or GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL if one strays from the
prescribed way.'

Danny - I disagree entirely. You select the few sequences of words over a 30-year period that sound anything like that and I can't imagine that your memory has deteriorated to the point that you believe that this has EVER been the essence, point or vibe of the way Maharaji teaches. He is anything but fear-based in his approach. If someone fears him, that's a different matter. This idea of him as the tyrant? I'm sorry, I've been around him for decades and I've never seen it. I just don't buy it, Sandy.

Sandy - When someone comes on as the Most Powerful Being in the Universe - and don't even try to deny that's what the program was when he first got here - he doesn't really have to say or do much to create fear or worry about possible consequence of crossing his path - a mere look from someone with that empowerment to someone who has given that person such empowerment is quite enough. It wasn't spoken much, but it was there. I saw it and heard it and felt it, under the words of love. He said he could just blow on this world and make it go away at Kissimmee in one of his extended satsangs in the 70's. I remember it well and it had a deep effect on me as I am sure it had on many others at the time.

As a father, I am constantly learning from my own kids the effects my words and actions have on them without my knowing it at the time. They and their feedback are my teachers in a way, regarding my use of power and authority. I want to have a good loving enduring relationship with them, so I am attentive to their feedback without letting them get over on me, as kids will also do. And I have changed for the better as a result. -Sandy
Shp - 'if you are as experienced as you suggest, you know that pressure to conform, agree and attacks were routine in many of Maharaji's ashrams.'

Danny - I was in the ashram. Pressure to agree and comform, yes. Attack, no. I, like most people I know being a rebel by nature, resisted the kind of 'dear brother, pass the lentils...and quietly' mentality that I'm sure is endemic to monastic situations. I was aware of it and tried to limit my conformity to the schedule, etc. I can't deny that I got a lot out of the structure of the situation...it was like training wheels, in a sense. When it was over, it was clearly over.

Sandy - I was not in Maharaji's ashrams. I only know the good and bad of it from stories, all of which cannot be fiction.
I do undedrstand the dynamics of an ashram from having been a monk. There is the element of the 'agate tumbler' in such a living situation. An agate tumbler is a resolving drum that rough agates are thrown into and the rough edges are knocked off, and the stones are smoothed and polished in the process. Likened to our egos and our prides, etc.

Shp - 'You give me no more credit for being able to think/feel this out than a piece of meat.

Danny - No. It just feels like you're dealing with a highly selective and twisted picture and trying to make sense of it. From that angle, I don't think it will ever make sense.

Sandy - I see the 'good' and the 'bad'. It's all there. I am not into rewriting history. You know, if you read American history as recorded by the founding fathers, it's a whole different story than the same history as written by the Native Americans or the transplanted enslaved Africans. Which one is true? Both are true. Which one do you feel most at home with. Depends if you were white or red or black.

Shp - “Yet you want to persuade me to see it your way.”

Danny - God, no. Persuasion is meaningless. Anything someone can be persuaded in to, they can be persuaded right out of. You have to come to your own peace about all this. Yours, not mine or Marianne's or Michael Dettmers'. Yours.

Sandy - I agree. But you want to weigh in with your side of the story so that I will consider your experience when I think and feel all this out. I have no problem with that. I believe that you are as sincere as anyone else on either side of this matter and you sincerely believe what you are saying.

Shp - 'You gotta put yourself in their shoes, Danny, you gotta empathize, to answer this with any real sincerity. I don't think Maharaji reveled in or endorsed child abuse.'

Danny - I can empathize with Susan's situation, though I don't know her and really don't know what went on 20 years ago. What I can't empathize with and what sickens me, is the way that others have used this merely as an excuse to 'stick it' to Maharaji. As with the trumpeting of some guy's suicide who was even described as quite nutty and who showed up demanding to be let into the ashram. And the sanctimonius 'Our Dear Brother' headlines about this 'unknown soldier.' What is that? What noble place does that
come from? You tell me. My intuition tells me that she's telling the truth about Jagdeo but I also know that Mahatmas that misbehaved in any way were shipped right out and de-saffroned. I also know that she assumes that Maharaji was told about this and one of the two people she's sure told him, didn't. I also know that about 40 people, this year, including all the Unity School people, were interviewed about this and not a single one had heard anything about this at the time. Nor had I and I was around.

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 19:07:09 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Re. the 'Most Powerful Being in the Universe' ...
Message:
In a meaty post with much to recommend it, Sanford, I'd like to just reprint a couple of paragraphs of yours here that rang bells for me:

'When someone comes on as the Most Powerful Being in the Universe - and don't even try to deny that's what the program was when he first got here - he doesn't really have to say or do much to create fear or worry about possible consequence of crossing his path - a mere look from someone with that empowerment to someone who has given that person such empowerment is quite enough. It wasn't spoken much, but it was there. I saw it and heard it and felt it, under the words of love. He said he could just blow on this world and make it go away at Kissimmee in one of his extended satsangs in the 70's. I remember it well and it had a deep effect on me as I am sure it had on many others at the time.

As a father, I am constantly learning from my own kids the effects my words and actions have on them without my knowing it at the time. They and their feedback are my teachers in a way, regarding my use of power and authority. I want to have a good loving enduring relationship with them, so I am attentive to their feedback without letting them get over on me, as kids will also do. And I have changed for the better as a result.' -Sandy


Thanks for that perspective. I remember the world of the surrendered, blissed-out, irresponsible, 'it's all his lila' -type mind-set (and it is a mind-set, though often described as being 'from the heart'). It's a way of thinking, a way of life even, that has come to represent the premie world in a nutshell for me. At least what I remember of it. In essence I doubt if it has changed much at its core. You either worship Maharaji blatantly or secretly, but he's always the centre of your world.

Why was he the centre of our world? Because he presented himself as 'Lord of the Universe', 'that superior power in person'.

Times have changed, and apparently he now even denies that once claimed to be that. What kind of message does that give out to old-time premies? To the die-hards, it's all perfectly simple. He can do what he wants, and if he wants to lie about and misrepresent his past, then it's just a device to strengthen their 'surrender'. Of course, they'd find it hard to stop and think just where he'd draw the line. But stopping and thinking was never very high on M's agenda for his premies, was it?

But you Sandy are now, as a father with real responsibilities towards your own children, in a position to see the effect your words have on people who are disposed to trust you. There's a limit (I have no doubt) on what you think you can 'get away with' when you interact with your own kids. (and they with you).

Maharaji has never had that as far as his 'premie-children' (i.e. not his own immediate blood-family) are concerned. For him, the premies have taken the bait time and time again, and suckers that we were, how much love do you think he must really feel for the bulk of premies in general? My guess is that he must think they're absolute idiots to have been suckered by his game for so long. And then still come back for more. But maybe there's another side to him that thinks he's has to treat premies this way - it's what he learned from his daddy, isn't it?

You know, I wonder if he hasn't got a teeny little bit of real respect for the exes who have seen through him? After all, if he's the 'master'-teacher he claims to be, surely he can put himself in another person's shoes and get an angle on where they're coming from?

Enough for now.

Chris

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 19:25:40 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: FA/Brian
Subject: Empty post Alert (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 19:47:30 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks Gerry, I'll try again
Message:
In a meaty post with much to recommend it, Sanford, I'd like to just reprint a couple of paragraphs of yours here that rang bells for me:

'When someone comes on as the Most Powerful Being in the Universe - and don't even try to deny that's what the program was when he first got here - he doesn't really have to say or do much to create fear or worry about possible consequence of crossing his path - a mere look from someone with that empowerment to someone who has given that person such empowerment is quite enough. It wasn't spoken much, but it was there. I saw it and heard it and felt it, under the words of love. He said he could just blow on this world and make it go away at Kissimmee in one of his extended satsangs in the 70's. I remember it well and it had a deep effect on me as I am sure it had on many others at the time.

As a father, I am constantly learning from my own kids the effects my words and actions have on them without my knowing it at the time. They and their feedback are my teachers in a way, regarding my use of power and authority. I want to have a good loving enduring relationship with them, so I am attentive to their feedback without letting them get over on me, as kids will also do. And I have changed for the better as a result.' -Sandy

.
.
.

Thanks for that perspective. I remember the world of the surrendered, blissed-out, irresponsible, 'it's all his lila' -type mind-set (and it is a mind-set, though often described as being 'from the heart'). It's a way of thinking, a way of life even, that has come to represent the premie world in a nutshell for me. At least what I remember of it. In essence I doubt if it has changed much at its core. You either worship Maharaji blatantly or secretly, but he's always the centre of your world.

Why was he the centre of our world? Because he presented himself as 'Lord of the Universe', 'that superior power in person'.

Times have changed, and apparently he now even denies that once claimed to be that. What kind of message does that give out to old-time premies? To the die-hards, it's all perfectly simple. He can do what he wants, and if he wants to lie about and misrepresent his past, then it's just a device to strengthen their 'surrender'. Of course, they'd find it hard to stop and think just where he'd draw the line. But stopping and thinking was never very high on M's agenda for his premies, was it?

But you Sandy are now, as a father with real responsibilities towards your own children, in a position to see the effect your words have on people who are disposed to trust you. There's a limit (I have no doubt) on what you think you can 'get away with' when you interact with your own kids. (and they with you).

Maharaji has never had that as far as his premie-children (i.e. not his own immediate blood-family) are concerned. For him, the premies have taken the bait time and time again, and suckers that we were, how much love do you think he must really feel for the bulk of premies in general? My guess is that he must think they're absolute idiots to have been suckered by his game for so long. And then still come back for more. But perhaps there's a part of him that feels he has to treat premies that way, after all, it's what his daddy taught him, isn't it?

You know, I sometimes wonder if he hasn't got a teeny little bit of real respect for the exes who have seen through him? After all, if he's the 'master'-teacher he claims to be, surely he can put himself in another person's shoes and get an angle on where they're coming from?


Enough for now.

Chris

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Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 19:06:19 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: More reply to Danny with request for comment, cont
Message:
Sandy - So let's forget for now the sideshows and the negative bandwagons and just deal with Susan and Abi experiences, accepting that they have told the truth.

Danny - So, sounds to me like something's missing in this story. You think anybody had anything to gain by protecting Jagdeo? I don't. And I'm sure neither Randy nor Judy would knowingly risk the safety of children to protect one guy. He'd be outta there on his ass so fast you wouldn't even see him spinning. And no, Jethro, I didn't see him in India.

Sandy - Susan addresses this down the thread, I think, about who thoguht they were protecting who.

To my description of how outrageous the event in India was and the rest of what noone wants to hear, you said,

Shp - 'Been there, done that, only not in India.'

Danny - Minimizing the beauty a little bit, Sandy? Maximizing the ugly or doubtful, possibly?

Sandy - No. The beauty, as you noticed, is not as appreciated here in light of the unresolved issues. I daresay you would feel the same way if it happened to you or yours. We are guests here, remember? You can't tell a hungry person about God, you have to feed him first. By the same token, you can't tell someone about the beauty if something really ugly happened to them under the banner of 'the beauty'.

Shp - 'I think you are being an asshole to lump everyone here into a 'whiny lil' bunch' and not acknowledge that anyone here has a legitimate problem with Maharaji or EV/DLM.

Danny - Busted (head down). You're probably right. I should note that for reasons of clarity and mental health, I've always separated Maharaji from EV/DLM and various organizers. That's helped me. I have a built-in distrust of organizations and I've seen absolutely nothing in my lifetime to dissuade me from that view.

Sandy - I have also separated the teacher from the assistants and the class, both in schools and with Maharaji. And yes, the most important thing is to focus on the point from which the information is being disseminated, namely the teacher. But if a good teacher has lousy assistants who mess with the most vulnerable members of the class, he should get rid of them quickly to keep his and his class's integrity intact and his class protected.

Shp - 'Numbers mean nothing in this context.'

Danny - True, but I really didn't mean the numbers to be a major thing...only in relation to...

( I lost a bunch cutting and pasting just now...will work it out later, this is enough for now ) Later...

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Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 02:22:22 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: We live in the Time of Lies.........
Message:

& you are a servant of the Lie.

There are many lies , but the one that concerns US is :

WHO IS GURU MAHARAJI ?

God incarnate , or a pissed imposter?

I'd say the latter.
I'd say he inherited the K techniques.
K techniques work for some ( me included) .
' ' are your bottom line.

If you can only get the 'experience' by chasing rawat around the world ,then you are certainly a lucky fucker $Ł wise.

Maybe you're just a lucky fucker!

There's one born every minute who isn't lucky though.

That's got to be LILA though , hasn't it?

Bhakti/Lila...... that's the thing for you , isn't it?

Use your undoubted gifts at communication to tell us why rawat is GOD.

I say that he is a betrayer , & you are an apologist.

You obviously come here to stir the shit , & why not.

Watch out for yourself , mindsang is infectious.

ps.

you say you've been 'around' him for 30 yrs. You must know a lot about the practical arrangements then.

You know , all that boring , non-blissful(but so essential) shit , that keeps him up & running.

Or maybe you don't know anything.

Maybe you're on a mission from God.

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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 22:06:16 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Back Atcha
Message:
Hi Sandy,

Greetings from your neighborhood Nobody, Evil Spin Doctor and Bastard whose words carry no weight and whose observations and experiences don't count because they're (shudder) positive and in the present tense.

You're right. I'll try to tune all of that out and respond to you, to whom I was writing in the first place.

Hope you had a great Thanksgiving.

To answer your underlined question first, nobody 'assigned' you to me (as if such a thing existed), I wrote all on my lonesome. I definitely have a soft spot for you, that's why I responded. That soft spot is based on reading your valiant efforts to remain true to yourself in the face of enormous abuse and pressure here and, I'd imagine, in the 'premie world' as well. I don't have a great deal of respect for either 'world', ex or premie, to put it bluntly. I also remember you from actual real life, something I won't go into in a hostile, public environment.

I thought I saw you in India and was walking toward you to say hi when I realized it was another, follicularly minimalist dude. But that put you in my frontal lobe. Before going there, I had looked right in the face of this site, reading the Journeys, hearing the complaints and trying to feel the difference between the legitimate gripes and the heavy doses of spin and bile that are often applied.

Then I went to India, looked right in Maharaji's face and felt where he was and what was emanating from him. I'll stop right there as I now realize that descriptions of my epic, beautiful adventures in India are about as welcome here as giving a speech on the glory of dimpled chads at Republican headquarters.

Connection between the two images of Maharaji? None.

I also hadn't grokked quite how bleak your outlook is on all this at this moment 'til I read a few other of your comments... Forgive me if this sounds harsh but if you chew on other people's undigested food long enough and often enough, don't be surprised if you get indigestion. No matter how strong and self-contained you may be. Your initial post, Help from Michael D. or anyone, upon re-reading it, now reads to me like a request to ratify doubt, not a wide-open question.

Anway, that's the background...came back from India well and truly blasted and inspired and looked in here and read the old same-old, same-old, moldy, regurgitated, undigested material and kinda went huhhhh?

I didn't write to you, nor am I here, to duel with anybody's doubts. When people and events are looked at through the filter of doubt,, it ALL looks screwy. That's true of any relationship as well....friends, lovers, bosses (little or big). I've, at different times, seen family members, girlfriends and yes, gurus through a warped prism, and it ain't pretty.

It also ain't necessarily the truth. At the very least, it's a skewed, incomplete picture.

I don't have the time nor inclination to go through every word here if it's to be met with a 'yeah, but what about this, huh?' attitude.

I'm a guy whose life is just as real, valid and valuable as anyone's here. This is not a form letter from a committee of robots. This is written by someone who cared enough to try and offer a different perspective, even though any perspective that doesn't vomit all over Maharaji is hardly welcomed here. The sign at the top of the page, if it were even half way honest and accurate, would read, Anything and Everything about Maharaji that is Intended to Make Him Look Bad While Blaming Him for Any Problem Anyone Associated with Him May Ever Have Had, Excluding or Revising any Memory or Mention of Any Qualities He Has or Any Wonderful Experiences Anybody Ever Had With Him.

That's how I feel.

Now, to respond to few of your points, Sandy.

Shp - 'You can only feel something like someone else's anguish if you have felt it too.

Danny - I have but I won't pretend to feel anguish or doubt in the present when it's not there.

Shp - Want to talk about it here?

Danny - No way, José.

Shp - As for being unpopular here, why are you so sure?

Danny - Check the responses. Read the responses to you when you expressed anything but doubt.

Shp - You think everyone here is just messed up and all in the same basket?

Danny - No. I think some are pretty messed up, some are sincere, some are destructive. I see different baskets. Same goes for the premie 'world', though it seems considerably kinder. Groupthink is somewhat frightening to me in any form.

Shp - 'This vortex here is nothing compared to the vortex of fear
and worry created by Maharaji's own words, over the thought of
breaking into a million pieces or becoming a vessel of rotting veggies, or GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL if one strays from the prescribed way.'

Danny - I disagree entirely. You select the few sequences of words over a 30-year period that sound anything like that and I can't imagine that your memory has deteriorated to the point that you believe that this has EVER been the essence, point or vibe of the way Maharaji teaches. He is anything but fear-based in his approach. If someone fears him, that's a different matter. This idea of him as the tyrant? I'm sorry, I've been around him for decades and I've never seen it. I just don't buy it, Sandy.

Shp - 'if you are as experienced as you suggest, you know that pressure to conform, agree and attacks were routine in many of Maharaji's ashrams.'

Danny - I was in the ashram. Pressure to agree and comform, yes. Attack, no. I, like most people I know being a rebel by nature, resisted the kind of 'dear brother, pass the lentils...and quietly' mentality that I'm sure is endemic to monastic situations. I was aware of it and tried to limit my conformity to the schedule, etc. I can't deny that I got a lot out of the structure of the situation...it was like training wheels, in a sense. When it was over, it was clearly over.

Shp - 'You give me no more credit for being able to think/feel this out than a piece of meat.

Danny - No. It just feels like you're dealing with a highly selective and twisted picture and trying to make sense of it. From that angle, I don't think it will ever make sense.

Shp - Yet you want to persuade me to see it your way.

Danny - God, no. Persuasion is meaningless. Anything someone can be persuaded in to, they can be persuaded right out of. You have to come to your own peace about all this. Yours, not mine or Marianne's or Michael Dettmers'. Yours.

Shp - 'You gotta put yourself in their shoes, Danny, you gotta empathize, to answer this with any real sincerity. I don't think Maharaji reveled in or endorsed child abuse.'

Danny - I can empathize with Susan' situation, though I don't know her and really don't know what went on 20 years ago. What I can't empathize with and what sickens me, is the way that others have used this merely as an excuse to 'stick it' to Maharaji. As with the trumpeting of some guy's suicide who was even described as quite nutty and who showed up demanding to be let into the ashram. And the sanctimonius 'Our Dear Brother' headlines about this 'unknown soldier.' What is that? What noble place does that come from? You tell me. My intuition tells me that she's telling the truth about Jagdeo but I also know that Mahatmas that misbehaved in any way were shipped right out and de-saffroned. I also know that she assumes that Maharaji was told about this and one of the two people she's sure told him, didn't. I also know that about 40 people, this year, including all the Unity School people, were interviewed about this and not a single one had heard anything about this at the time. Nor had I and I was around.

So, sounds to me like something's missing in this story. You think anybody had anything to gain by protecting Jagdeo? I don't. And I'm sure neither Randy nor Judy would knowingly risk the safety of children to protect one guy. He'd be outta there on his ass so fast you wouldn't even see him spinning. And no, Jethro, I didn't see him in India.

And Susan, I didn't say you had demonized Randy & Judy, though others surely have. I tend to believe you though I don't know how you characterized these incidents 20 years ago. It certainly is possible that you've built up, justifiably, a head of steam about it over the years that might not match in urgency what you said at the time. That's just a theory as I don't know you, so I'll shut my trap. Anyway, I'm very sorry whatever happened, happened.

To my description of how outrageous the event in India was and the rest of what noone wants to hear, you said,

Shp - 'Been there, done that, only not in India.'

Danny Minimizing the beauty a little bit, Sandy? Maximizing the ugly or doubtful, possibly?

Shp - 'I think you are being an asshole to lump everyone here into a 'whiny lil' bunch' and not acknowledge that anyone here has a legitimate problem with Maharaji or EV/DLM.

Danny - Busted (head down). You're probably right. I should note that for reasons of clarity and mental health, I've always separated Maharaji from EV/DLM and various organizers. That's helped me. I have a built-in distrust of organizations and I've seen absolutely nothing in my lifetime to dissuade me from that view.

Shp - 'Numbers mean nothing in this context.'

Danny - True, but I really didn't mean the numbers to be a major thing...only in relation to...

Shp - 'I am now aware of many hurt people who were just as devoted and sincere as I am'

Danny - You should be aware, for perspective's sake, that there ARE many people have been helped and inspired by Maharaji, and who love him. 'Hurt' doesn't even enter the picture. It's not a mine is bigger than yours thing and I'm sorry if it read that way.

Shp - ' I always wanted to give my loyalty to the Real Thing and still do, both inside me and out in the world.'

Danny - If you follow that as your gut-check, you'll be fine.

Shp - 'Question is, why would the Master set up his devotees to fail in the world and lose a job just to have a few more hours
together?'

Danny - Sorry, Sandy. This doesn't sound like what was happening at all. It was clearly for the joy, in both directions. I'm sure Maharaji wasn't hoping for people to fail. By the way, how does that dovetail with the ever-popular, deeply perceptive, it's all for the $ theory?

Shp - 'premie families with kids who felt like they were covered and being looked after by responsible adults who cared about them...and not some of these horror stories about premie kids that are coming out.'

Danny - In my experience, the premie kids, by and large, are some of the most beautiful, well-rounded kids I've ever met, including those whose parents now denounce Maharaji, though their kids were brought up in that atmosphere. Deadbeat parents, whoever they are, are a disgrace.

Lastly (whewww), in another place, you wrote,

Shp - 'The true Creator hears the sincere cry from one heart of one of his creatures and will cross the Universe to answer that cry, using all the atoms and molecules and creatures at His disposal to respond so that the needy heart knows it is the real answer it is feeling. Fairy tales? I think not.

This is the truest thing you have written. A gentle suggestion...You might have to be looking up, not down, to catch that response.

Danny


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Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 08:25:34 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Well at last one other half articulate premie,
Message:
even if suffering from the usual delusions, at least that smug self-satisfied spiritual superiority hasn't completely destroyed your humour and ability to visualize others feelings, although even you display many moments of it in your post.

Greetings from your neighborhood Nobody, Evil Spin Doctor and Bastard whose words carry no weight and whose observations and experiences don't count because they're (shudder) positive and in the present tense.

For a start do you consider global warming and mass slaughter something to be positive about?
If you've half a heart I doubt it. In other words life is dark AND light.
Let's just say for the sake of arguments that you are right about the negativity here, which by the way it would be very easy to disprove,
but I assume, if you see people as being negative here you don't automatically make the assumption that they are 'negative' in all of their life, otherwise you are too shallow for words.
But are they negative all the time here?,
there's the humour and laughs, the social cameradie, the sense of freedom, the feeling of liberation from gm ingested negative thoughts and guilt, the ot cultural stuff, and in most instances appalling musical tastes, only teasing everyone, well 50/50.
Oh and by the way, this is a history of site, so there will be plenty of references to the past. But what is interesting is seeing how those errors of the past, which of course are nothing to do with gm, even when he spoke them, are duplicated structurally in the present. Your readings here have obviously been VERY shallow.

You're right. I'll try to tune all of that out and respond to you, to whom I was writing in the first place.
Well actually I hate to point it out, but this is a public forum.
So cut out the snotty tone, if you want private conversations then e-mail. First instance of smug self-satisfied 'superior' premie tone.


Then I went to India, looked right in Maharaji's face and felt where he was and what was emanating from him. I'll stop right there as I now realize that descriptions of my epic, beautiful adventures in India are about as welcome here as giving a speech on the glory of dimpled chads at Republican headquarters.
Connection between the two images of Maharaji? None.

You are in an environment with a performer with a captive audience beaming devotion, which of course he doesn't feed off eh?, I remember going through exactly the same process with a number of people, including Jerry Garcia and Robert Motherwell, to name two from a long list. But, surprize, surprize, their performances were different from what they actually were. So you concede that Mr Rawat might, even in your eyes, be different from guru maharaji?

And you KNOW having FELT something,
funny that, because I know having felt nothing around gm, and before we go off on the usual superficial premie response, meditation on the four techniques worked an absolute treat for me, and still does.

Forgive me if this sounds harsh but if you chew on other people's undigested food long enough and often enough, don't be surprised if you get indigestion. No matter how strong and self-contained you may be. Your initial post, Help from Michael D. or anyone, upon re-reading it, now reads to me like a request to ratify doubt, not a wide-open question.
You insult shp here, greatly. I've had plenty of run ins with shp, but never did I think for a moment he was that shallow, if anything I've always been amazed at his powers of spiritual defensive ness. Anyone who can handle jim heller without buckling is not that shallow by any stretch of the imagination. Of course you may be arguing that any thoughts that don't bring you joy, shouldn't be focused on. If so I would hate to be your partner or friend or family member or kid. nirvana kiddie cartoon reality does nobody any favours, and I write this as someone in a small minority here, who still has that feeling of 'grace' with 'cosmic flavours'.
Anyway, that's the background...came back from India well and truly blasted and inspired and looked in here and read the old same-old, same-old, moldy, regurgitated, undigested material and kinda went huhhhh?
So why visit the rotting vegetables with no fresh ideas and nothing to say, as though we are any competition for the man who is the master, surely if you are right we will just remind premies how precious and special he and his 'holy' experience are, especially when premies are always still doing the big pranam in his presence.
But no, methinks you are talking of 'mind', and how it can get you to forget that sweet experience, so really we are the 'devil' incarnate, no wonder you can't deal with the arguments here, why risk that 'precious' one, my luvverly.
So you can't have an open mind in these discussions, the very thing you accuse us of.
I didn't write to you, nor am I here, to duel with anybody's doubts. When people and events are looked at through the filter of doubt,, it ALL looks screwy. That's true of any relationship as well....friends, lovers, bosses (little or big). I've, at different times, seen family members, girlfriends and yes, gurus through a warped prism, and it ain't pretty.
It also ain't necessarily the truth. At the very least, it's a skewed, incomplete picture.
Re periods of doubt, especially intense ones, couldn't agree with you more, but, but, but, any periods of doubt have always been supremely beneficial to me, something has always moved on and grown, developed through those intense doubt periods. I suspect you've never given those periods of doubt long enough or you would know this to be true, and I'm not just talking about m & k here. During less stable periods I've always found it best to take it slowly, and not rush to shallow judgements, let the dust settle, and THEN see what comes out of it all. Also I don't understand this premie panic attack about mind. If we were all able to find the lord of the universe, or THE master, if you will, thern surely that's something built into us. But I forgot, the mind is evil, and can get you to forget completely, and once forgotten those experiences are gone forever.
Well I know from my own experience that's garbage, and it discounts those feelings of followers of the nigerian guru maharaji, any number of followers of other gurus who have those self same feelings, and plenty of people who don't follow any religious group or guru who have those feelings, feelings that lead to a DEEP appreciation of being alive.

I'm a guy whose life is just as real, valid and valuable as anyone's here. This is not a form letter from a committee of robots. This is written by someone who cared enough to try and offer a different perspective, even though any perspective that doesn't vomit all over Maharaji is hardly welcomed here. The sign at the top of the page, if it were even half way honest and accurate, would read, Anything and Everything about Maharaji that is Intended to Make Him Look Bad While Blaming Him for Any Problem Anyone Associated with Him May Ever Have Had, Excluding or Revising any Memory or Mention of Any Qualities He Has or Any Wonderful Experiences Anybody Ever Had With Him.
That's how I feel.
It's not your humanity, or your feelings I have the beef with, but your explanatory belief system, a different thing altogether. And well yet again you prove how unreliable your 'feelings' are. Numerous people have spoken here about the value of meditation for them, a number of people acknowledge the strong social pleasure that was gained from their premie communities at different times and places, Michael Dettmers is appreciative of the pay off he got from gm when he left as well as enjoyable times smoking dope with him on a regular basis.......(don't you find it odd that gm pays people when they become exes), there are other points too, I'm appreciative of gm for finally firming up my 'concept' that all leaders are a crock of shit,
and will do almost anything to stop or slow down the empowerment of their 'followers'. And just to be ruthlessly fair, I did enjoy the small moments of zen'isms that popped up on a semi-regular basis in his talks.
The problem is that downer points around gm far outweigh the positive ones, and it is easily proved if one isn't scared of 'the mind', and is genuinely prepared to be open.

G STRAIGHT TO HELL if one strays from the prescribed way.'
Danny - I disagree entirely. You select the few sequences of words over a 30-year period that sound anything like that and I can't imagine that your memory has deteriorated to the point that you believe that this has EVER been the essence, point or vibe of the way Maharaji teaches. He is anything but fear-based in his approach. If someone fears him, that's a different matter. This idea of him as the tyrant? I'm sorry, I've been around him for decades and I've never seen it. I just don't buy it, Sandy.

You don't buy it because you are in denial, if you were to walk from gm, what do think would happen. I guarantee your answer will be riddled with 'that' fear.
And one of key agreements for everyone here was exactly that 'rotting vegetable'/'go to hell' number.
Every single one of his speeches was always riddled with phrases that were guaranteed to feed on peoples insecurities, worries, doubts about doubts, to deny that is either so psychologically blinkered as to be frightening. From anyone of his speeches I GUARANTEE you it is easy to point these occasions out, they ALWAYS happened and still do, and that's leaving out the verbal abuse of ashram premies, instructors, and pams in private meetings. This abuse was not just occasional, but regular and again easily proved. Lila has a lot to answer for.
No that fear factor was not his only message, but it was always co-present with the 'appreciation' of life angle.
Again easily proved.

Danny - No. It just feels like you're dealing with a highly selective and twisted picture and trying to make sense of it. From that angle, I don't think it will ever make sense.
Again you show your naivete, you see if you had the experience yourself you would know, but only imagining it, well you as a premie should understand that one. Actually it's all very straightforward, simple as shit, and clear as a bell, the problem is you need to have an independent view, and not one riddled with cult thinking.
Try it sometime, you'd be amazed how gorgeous it can be, and you can even hang onto your meditation experiences too, what more could you ask for?
Shp - Yet you want to persuade me to see it your way.
Danny - God, no. Persuasion is meaningless. Anything someone can be persuaded in to, they can be persuaded right out of. You have to come to your own peace about all this. Yours, not mine or Marianne's or Michael Dettmers'. Yours.

Sp pray tell why exactly you are here then, when you could be away from this den of mind?
Shp - 'You gotta put yourself in their shoes, Danny, you gotta empathize, to answer this with any real sincerity. I don't think Maharaji reveled in or endorsed child abuse.'
Danny - I can empathize with Susan' situation, though I don't know her and really don't know what went on 20 years ago. What I can't empathize with and what sickens me, is the way that others have used this merely as an excuse to 'stick it' to Maharaji. people, were interviewed about this and not a single one had heard anything about this at the time. Nor had I and I was around.

But then most of us didn't know about his alcohol and dope attraction, or that he has a thing for blondes and is incompetent in bed, and gets exceedingly paranoid about any chauffeurs (in joke that one I'm afraid), or that his techno toys and his lifestyle were anywhere near the HUGE drain that it's been, apart from the colossal financial waste and incompetence.
Shp - 'I think you are being an asshole to lump everyone here into a 'whiny lil' bunch' and not acknowledge that anyone here has a legitimate problem with Maharaji or EV/DLM.
Danny - Busted (head down). You're probably right. I should note that for reasons of clarity and mental health, I've always separated Maharaji from EV/DLM and various organizers. That's helped me. I have a built-in distrust of organizations and I've seen absolutely nothing in my lifetime to dissuade me from that view.

And of course there's no way that gm as md is responsible for the incompetence of his org, the effects on the number of followers of his uselessness, perish the thought. Jesus this guy is supposed to be THE master and he couldn't even organize a piss up in a brewery, recently, yet again, we hear from his masters lips how everything that goes wrong is the fault of others. No wonder you seperate the two, lets you avoid so much negativity from attaching to gm and affecting your experience and blame it on the followers, I wonder where you got that one from.
By the way do you know any other incompetent md who constantly blames the employees for the company failure and expects to stay as md, and they're hardly 'lord of the universe' or THE master.

Danny - If you follow that as your gut-check, you'll be fine.
Even if in doing so he considers gm is a fraud, vvery considerate of you.
Shp - 'Question is, why would the Master set up his devotees to fail in the world and lose a job just to have a few more hours
together?'
Danny - Sorry, Sandy. This doesn't sound like what was happening at all. It was clearly for the joy, in both directions. I'm sure Maharaji wasn't hoping for people to fail. By the way, how does that dovetail with the ever-popular, deeply perceptive, it's all for the $ theory?
Well obviously for the majority of people who have received k, the joy didn't happen, and re the $, jesus, the guy is completely useless on practical matters around his mission, and is constantly winging it, there are LOADS of MAJOR things he could have done to increase the success of his mission, but did he fuck, (well only blondes, by the way have you heard his pick up line?) and now you have 2,500 premies on the ev us of a mailing list, so obviously something didn't work between the seventies heyday & now. Oh I forgot it's all the premies' fault, silly me.
And while winging it, his major hook was his importance and the premie psychological dependency needed to carry that importance, like a lot of his decisions he was probably improvising without thinking from that feeling, whoops there goes another gm mistake, az`nd Also lets not forget he was pretty much programmed from the age of three to expect premie dependency on him, remember he was the lord of the universe and greater than god, how could he fail in his mission!!

By the way why are you here?
It either has to be to defend gm, or save some ex-premies, since what would be the point of dealing with truth issues with peoiple who are in their mind and have forgotten the truth and no longer appreciate life?

And I don't apologize for my sarky tone, because you try the mask of sincerity while being in denial, classic cult thinking,
but then I'm lost in mind, so what do I know
but what's your excuse when you are filled with this gratitude and appreciation, and have the pure bliss of being one with lord, well at least some of the time?

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Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 04:07:45 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Back Atcha
Message:
Danny posted_' I can empathize with Susan' situation, though I don't know her and really don't know what went on 20 years ago. What I can't empathize with and what sickens me, is the way that others have used this merely as an excuse to 'stick it' to Maharaji. As with the trumpeting of some guy's suicide who was even described as quite nutty and who showed up demanding to be let into the ashram. And the sanctimonius 'Our Dear Brother' headlines about this 'unknown soldier.' What is that? What noble place does that come from? You tell me. My intuition tells me that she's telling the truth about Jagdeo but I also know that Mahatmas that misbehaved in any way were shipped right out and de-saffroned. I also know that she assumes that Maharaji was told about this and one of the two people she's sure told him, didn't. I also know that about 40 people, this year, including all the Unity School people, were interviewed about this and not a single one had heard anything about this at the time. Nor had I and I was around.

So, sounds to me like something's missing in this story. You think anybody had anything to gain by protecting Jagdeo? I don't. And I'm sure neither Randy nor Judy would knowingly risk the safety of children to protect one guy. He'd be outta there on his ass so fast you wouldn't even see him spinning. And no, Jethro, I didn't see him in India.

And Susan, I didn't say you had demonized Randy & Judy, though others surely have. I tend to believe you though I don't know how you characterized these incidents 20 years ago. It certainly is possible that you've built up, justifiably, a head of steam about it over the years that might not match in urgency what you said at the time. That's just a theory as I don't know you, so I'll shut my trap. Anyway, I'm very sorry whatever happened, happened.'

Danny,

I appreciate that your intuition tells you I am telling the truth, as I am. I think that Randy and Judy are protecting Rawat, not Jagdeo. EV seems to be pretty consistant in what they want to deny is that Rawat knew, not that Jagdeo was the horrible creep that he was.

I do recall being very uncomfortable as I was telling Randy about Jagdeo. It wasn't an easy thing to talk about, obviously. I was 15 and I was also fairly uncomfortable with this sort of subject. I recall getting the essential points across, but yes, I am sure as an adult ( an ex premie ) I am more able to see the gravity of the situation now than I was then. I am much less apt to make excuses for those involved as well. I did talk to Randy a month or so later, and he did say he told Rawat, though I do not recall a lot more than that.

A couple years later, as I have said many times, I told Judy about Jagdeo. Judy I did not know at all except by reputation. That reputation led me to believe she would get the message through. I myself was concerned Randy might not have told Rawat, or may have downplayed it. So I did not tell Judy I had ever told anyone about Jagdeo before. Judy got back to me a week later and said ' I told Maharaj Ji and he already had heard about what had happened to you. And he was glad it was not a new incident'

Danny, can you see why I think Rawat was told by Randy? I wasn't there, but how on earth would Judy know this, and why on earth would she say that, if she had not told him, and if Randy hadn't? AFTER Judy said this, then I confessed I had told Randy a few years prior, but I was afraid he had not told Rawat because nothing seemed to have been done about it. Judy said, 'Randy is a good guy, of course he would have told Maharaj ji.' She also seemed irritated that I had not told her about reporting it previously.

Danny, what am I supposed to think?

I think that Randy, Judy, and whoever else is involved in deciding what is okay to remember feel that they must protect Rawat. I am sure they are do not feel they are protecting Jagdeo, they feel they are protecting 'Maharaji'. But they either have terrible memories, and forget things most people WOULD remember, or they are lying.

I agree too Danny, that every instance I ever heard of Mahatmas doing things that were sexual misconduct they were sent to India. For things much less serious than Jagdeo did. Like you, it made me wonder if Randy had told him, or if somehow the seriousness or some of the facts had been lost in the conversation. That is why I told Judy, and that was her response.

You tell me, if I am telling the truth, and Randy did tell Rawat, and it leaves Rawat legally and morally vulnerable, would Randy 'forget' the conversation he had 20+ years ago to protect his Master? Would Judy? Especially if they were told Jagdeo is old and incapable of hurting anyone anymore, and the only person who would be really hurt if they tell the truth is Prem Pal Singh Rawat?

Danny, if you really are an insider, maybe you can figure out what happened.

What if you were to find out that yes, Rawat did know back then? But somehow he misjudged the seriousness of it, and he punished Jagdeo, but for some reason did not 'defrock' him. Perhaps Rawat even regrets this trememndously, finding out now about Abi, and likely others. If you found that out, would you come out, and tell the truth, and back me up, even though it would hurt your Master?

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 07:07:55 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Back To You
Message:
Hi Susan,

Thanks for your reasonable, calm and non-extremist response. I appreciate it.

I have to make a point of ignoring rabid, baseless and offensive spewings like those above from AJW and others. Being accused of harboring, promoting or protecting sick, criminal activity by someone who has no idea of who I am or what kind of life I've lived is so far off that it doesn't deserve the dignity of comment. It just pisses me off mightily and makes me call into question the judgement of anyone who would fling such crap around, so easily. That kind of approach just makes me feel like reasonable dialogue isn't a possibility here. I'm busy as it is and I have no need nor desire to be verbally abused, here or anywhere else.

People who yell, 'cult, cult, cult,' don't sound too different to me than people yelling, 'faggot, faggot', 'jewboy' or 'nigger, nigger.' It helps nothing. It just makes the yellers look like hermetically sealed, intolerant boobs.

That being said, I'll try to respond to some of YOUR comments. (Exhale)

Susan - 'I appreciate that your intuition tells you I am telling the truth, as I am.'

Danny - It does. I believe you are.

Susan - 'I do recall being very uncomfortable as I was telling Randy about Jagdeo. It wasn't an easy thing to talk about, obviously. I was 15 and I was also fairly uncomfortable with this sort of subject. I recall getting the essential points across, but yes, I am sure as an adult ( an ex premie ) I am more able to see the gravity of the situation now than I was then.'

Danny - Thanks for your honesty. I'm sure it was difficult. And it sounds like you see that perhaps something got lost in the translation along the way. That might explain the communications questions that are only going to be that much vaguer this many years later.

Susan - 'Judy got back to me a week later and said ' I told Maharaj Ji and he already had heard about what had happened to you. And he was glad it was not a new incident' Danny, can you see why I think Rawat was told by Randy?'

Danny - Yes, I can. And all I can offer are theories, 'cause there clearly is a disconnect here somewhere. I'm not about to speak for either Randy or Judy, whom I know to be honorable people. You seem to me to be an honorable person as well. One possibility, and as I said, this is merely guessing so don't shoot me....Maharaji was told by whoever an extremely watered-down version of the events, due either to the timidity of the teller or your own, less-damning depiction at the time. This would dovetail with...

Susan - 'it made me wonder if Randy had told him, or if somehow the seriousness or some of the facts had been lost in the conversation.'

Danny - I should also mention that I'VE had the experience of a former honcho telling me that he had relayed something important concerning my own situation to Maharaji...only to find out later that the conversation had never really happened. I say this because no matter how you may view him after all this time and all the crap that's promulgated about him here, Maharaji would never, in a MILLION YEARS, condone what you've reported. Even the most dedicated smear artist, who ever actually knew him, couldn't honestly say, ' Maharaji wouldn't care if girls were being abused by a mahatma.'

Susan - 'Danny, what am I supposed to think?'

Danny - I don't know. I'd imagine that after this many years with the added element that you feel great antipathy for Maharaji that it'd all look like some horrible abuse, not just by the person that did it, but by Maharaji and all the premies by extension, unfair and irrational as that may be. I wouldn't blame you. It's too bad it wasn't identified clearly and uprooted at the time, whatever the particulars were back then. I'm sure it's far more likely to be a bit of vague communication all around, further blurred by the passage of time, rather than a diabolical conspiracy (Mahatmagate).

Susan - 'I agree too Danny, that every instance I ever heard of Mahatmas doing things that were sexual misconduct they were sent to India. For things much less serious than Jagdeo did.'

Danny - Again, thanks for being straight. This is absolutely true and such incidents were dealt with swiftly and decisively. That's why this doesn't seem to make much sense.

Susan - 'You tell me, if I am telling the truth, and Randy did tell Rawat, and it leaves Rawat legally and morally vulnerable, would Randy 'forget' the conversation he had 20+ years ago to protect his Master?'

Danny - From what I know of Randy, no. I believe he either never had that conversation at all or he actually forgot it.

Susan - 'What if you were to find out that yes, Rawat did know back then? But somehow he misjudged the seriousness of it, and he punished Jagdeo, but for some reason did not 'defrock' him. Perhaps Rawat even regrets this trememndously, finding out now about Abi, and likely others. If you found that out, would you come out, and tell the truth, and back me up, even though it would hurt your Master?'

Danny - Yes.

My best wishes to you, Susan, and I hope you find your peace about this, one way or the other.

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 16:53:09 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Back To You
Message:
Dear Danny,

I really hope it is true that you would, if you found out that Rawat really did know about this in the seventies, would come here and back me up. Maybe, someone will confirm it to you, and you will come here and do so. I really think it is likely that Randy, Judy and Rawat told other people way back then about what I had said. If they did, maybe one of those people will someday come out and say so. I would feel very vindicated by this.

Your hypothetical about it being some watered down version that was relayed to Rawat does not offend me at all. I really just want an explanation. But, even if that IS the explanation, it really doesn't fit with what is happening now.

Rawat denies ever hearing about any version of this in the seventies. I KNOW that my memory is correct about what I told to whom and how they responded. I still think Judy's reply knowing something she could not possibly know unless she really had told Rawat and Rawat had told her he already knew is very damning. He knew something then.

Don't you see the logic here? I know for a fact, I was there, that I had these conversations with Randy and Judy. I know by logical deduction that Rawat was told. Now, Randy and Judy have both 'forgotten'. Rawat says he 'never heard'. Don't you think at least one of them would remember something about a subject of this gravity even 20 years later? I do.

Also, if we were not talking on an open BB I could tell you more about why indeed I think they remember.

Danny, you seem like a very bright man. I beleive what you want to see here, and your beliefs about these people, are clouding your judgement. You sort of imply that my negative feelings about Rawat are clouding my judgement. But honestly, look at what I am saying, I do not think I am unwilling to look at all the possibilties. But I do think you seem to be unwilling to accept an explanation, the most obvious one, that makes your Master look bad.

I do not know what really happened, but it has always seemed likely to me that whatever Randy said the first time did fail to convey the gravity of the situation. There could be a lot of reasons for this. But I think he did convey something because, #1 he said he did, #2 Judy unwittingly confirmed he did. The reason I think it likely that he failed to convey, or that the guru failed to understand, the gravity of the situation is that so little seems to have been done. That just is inconsistant with the guru's pattern of how he dealt with this sort of thing.

I think that Judy would have been more forcely, possibly, about the serious nature of what I was saying. In just a few years the climate in the US had changed where there was a lot of press about child sexual abuse, and I think she did get that this was serious. But, maybe whatever Rawat felt he did about it the first time he then felt was enough. Forgive, me for citing Michael Dettmers, whom I am sure you do not like, but the picture I have of the guru's personlity from Dettmers would lead me to beleive that he could easily think that whatever punishment he had given Jagdeo in 1977 was enough, and that it was an old issue, case closed. I think it is possible the guru never entertained the possiblity in his 'mind' that perhaps the scope of this really was huge, as I told both Randy and Judy I thought it likely was.

So then years later, present time, I come up saying what I am, and so does Abi. I think they may regret having dealt with it badly back then. I think privately they may realize they DID deal with it badly back then. But they see themselves as having too much to lose to tell the truth. And would rather say 'I don't remember'. Danny, that is my opinion. One could forget maybe...but both? Oh please. Not when there is so much to be gained by forgeting.

There is something else though. I know that at least 4 children were abused ( some very seriously ) in Miami. Abi knows of as many in England. We also have the suspicious Unity School report. Remember too, that Abi was only 7 when her abuse began. The other kids in Miami were ages 8 -12. I think there are reports that DLM, and EV got, that we will never know about unless someone does a 'dettmers' again on the cult. Logic tells me Jagdeo abused kids wherever he went. I am sure most of those kids kept it to themselves. But, I bet some DID tell their parents, or someone, and that there are other reports we have never heard about. We know Abi's dad told Guru Charnanand, EV also denies that. My god do the 4 techniques obliterate memory?

I hope you are reading this with an open heart and an open mind. If you really do care, and you really have the ethics you say you do, and you really are a current insider, maybe you can get some answers for me.

Susan

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 07:17:55 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Back To You (Pt. 2) Some was missing before.
Message:
Dear Susan: Some of this didn't get printed the first time.

Susan - 'Danny, what am I supposed to think?'

Danny - I don't know. I'd imagine that after this many years with the added element that you feel great antipathy for Maharaji that it'd all look like some horrible abuse, not just by the person that did it but by Maharaji and all the premies by extension, unfair and irrational as that may be. I wouldn't blame you. It's too bad it wasn't identified clearly and uprooted at the time, whatever the particulars were back then. I'm sure it's far more likely to be a bit of vague communication all around, further blurred by the passage of time, rather than a diabolical conspiracy (Mahatmagate).

Susan - 'I agree too Danny, that every instance I ever heard of Mahatmas doing things that were sexual misconduct they were sent to India. For things much less serious than Jagdeo did.'

Danny - Again, thanks for being straight. This is absolutely true and such incidents were dealt with swiftly and decisively. That's why this doesn't seem to make much sense.

Susan - 'You tell me, if I am telling the truth, and Randy did tell Rawat, and it leaves Rawat legally and morally vulnerable, would Randy 'forget' the conversation he had 20+ years ago to protect his Master?'

Danny - From what I know of Randy, no. I believe he either never had that conversation at all or he actually forgot it.

Susan - 'What if you were to find out that yes, Rawat did know back then? But somehow he misjudged the seriousness of it, and he punished Jagdeo, but for some reason did not 'defrock' him. Perhaps Rawat even regrets this trememndously, finding out now about Abi, and likely others. If you found that out, would you come out, and tell the truth, and back me up, even though it would hurt your Master?'

Danny - Yes.

My best wishes to you, Susan, and I hope you find your peace about this, one way or the other.

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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 16:39:57 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Your imagination stinks
Message:
I'd imagine that after this many years with the added element that you feel great antipathy for Maharaji that it'd all look like some horrible abuse, not just by the person that did it but by Maharaji and all the premies by extension, unfair and irrational as that may be

No, not 'premies by extension.' You see, danny, noone here is into 'blaming the premies.' They are the victims, Maharaji is the perpetrator. Blaming the premies is Rawat's game which I agree, is 'unfair and irrational.'

And danny, 'peace with this issue' for me would be rawat and jagdeo behind bars. Nothing less.

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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 20:32:01 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: DANNY - SUSAN'S POST DESERVES A RESPONSE (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Nov 28, 2000 at 17:54:19 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Thanks, Danny, but...
Message:
It is obvious that you want very much to hold on to the possibility that Rawat was oblivious to Jagdeo's many acts of child sexual abuse on premie children. And it is obvious why you want to believe that.

It is also obvious that you have nothing further to say about the matter. Your only contribution to our knowledge of this issue was your claim that Randy told you personally that he never told Rawat about the situation even though Susan had requested that he do so. If it is true that Randy did not tell Rawat, as Susan requested, then he is a morally defunct person. It is more likely that he did tell Rawat, lied to you about that, and is now continuing to cover up for Mr. Rawat. If that is the case, then he is, at best, a very misquided individual.

It is now up to Randy and Judy to clear this matter up. They are the ones who can do so, and they have remained silent. The claim by Elan Vital that neither of them 'recall' is completely unbelievable.

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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 23:27:10 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: The missing text, I hope
Message:
note: Here, I'm hoping, is the part that didn't show up, for whatever reason in the other posting attempts. Screwy software, perhaps? Sorry for the multiple headings but it just didn't make it into print as written.

So, sounds to me like something's missing in this story. You think anybody had anything to gain by protecting Jagdeo? I don't. And I'm sure neither Randy nor Judy would knowingly risk the safety of children to protect one guy. He'd be outta there on his ass so fast you wouldn't even see him spinning. And no, Jethro, I didn't see him in India.

And Susan, I didn't say you had demonized Randy & Judy, though others surely have. I tend to believe you though I don't know how you characterized these incidents 20 years ago. It certainly is possible that you've built up, justifiably, a head of steam about it over the years that might not match in urgency what you said at the time. That's just a theory as I don't know you, so I'll shut my trap. Anyway, I'm very sorry whatever happened, happened.

To my description of how outrageous the event in India was and the rest of what noone wants to hear, you said,

Shp - 'Been there, done that, only not in India.'

Danny - Minimizing the beauty a little bit, Sandy? Maximizing the ugly or doubtful, possibly?

Shp - 'I think you are being an asshole to lump everyone here into a 'whiny lil' bunch' and not acknowledge that anyone here has a legitimate problem with Maharaji or EV/DLM.

Danny - Busted (head down). You're probably right. I should note that for reasons of clarity and mental health, I've always separated Maharaji from EV/DLM and various organizers. That's helped me. I have a built-in distrust of organizations and I've seen absolutely nothing in my lifetime to dissuade me from that view.

Shp - 'Numbers mean nothing in this context.'

Danny - True, but I really didn't mean the numbers to be a major thing...only in relation to...

Shp - 'I am now aware of many hurt people who were just as devoted and sincere as I am'

Danny - You should be aware, for perspective's sake, that there ARE many people have been helped and inspired by Maharaji, and who love him. 'Hurt' doesn't even enter the picture. It's not a mine is bigger than yours thing and I'm sorry if it read that way.

Shp - ' I always wanted to give my loyalty to the Real Thing and still do, both inside me and out in the world.'

Danny - If you follow that as your gut-check, you'll be fine.

Shp - 'Question is, why would the Master set up his devotees to fail in the world and lose a job just to have a few more hours
together?'

Danny - Sorry, Sandy. This doesn't sound like what was happening at all. It was clearly for the joy, in both directions. I'm sure Maharaji wasn't hoping for people to fail. By the way, how does that dovetail with the ever-popular, deeply perceptive, it's all for the $ theory?

Shp - 'premie families with kids who felt like they were covered and being looked after by responsible adults who cared about them...and not some of these horror stories about premie kids that are coming out.'

Danny - In my experience, the premie kids, by and large, are some of the most beautiful, well-rounded kids I've ever met, including those whose parents now denounce Maharaji, though their kids were brought up in that atmosphere. Deadbeat parents, whoever they are, are a disgrace.

Lastly (whewww), in another place, you wrote,

Shp - 'The true Creator hears the sincere cry from one heart of one of his creatures and will cross the Universe to answer that cry, using all the atoms and molecules and creatures at His disposal to respond so that the needy heart knows it is the real answer it is feeling. Fairy tales? I think not.

This is the truest thing you have written. A gentle suggestion...You might have to be looking up, not down, to catch that response.

Danny

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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 23:03:41 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: There's a lot of text missing from my post
Message:
Perhaps it exceeded the word limit.

Here's the missing section.

So, sounds to me like something's missing in this story. You think anybody had anything to gain by protecting Jagdeo? I don't. And I'm sure neither Randy nor Judy would knowingly risk the safety of children to protect one guy. He'd be outta there on his ass so fast you wouldn't even see him spinning. And no, Jethro, I didn't see him in India.

And Susan, I didn't say you had demonized Randy & Judy, though others surely have. I tend to believe you though I don't know how you characterized these incidents 20 years ago. It certainly is possible that you've built up, justifiably, a head of steam about it over the years that might not match in urgency what you said at the time. That's just a theory as I don't know you, so I'll shut my trap. Anyway, I'm very sorry whatever happened, happened.

To my description of how outrageous the event in India was and the rest of what noone wants to hear, you said,

Shp - 'Been there, done that, only not in India.'

Danny - Minimizing the beauty a little bit, Sandy? Maximizing the ugly or doubtful, possibly?

Shp - 'I think you are being an asshole to lump everyone here into a 'whiny lil' bunch' and not acknowledge that anyone here has a legitimate problem with Maharaji or EV/DLM.

Danny - Busted (head down). You're probably right. I should note that for reasons of clarity and mental health, I've always separated Maharaji from EV/DLM and various organizers. That's helped me. I have a built-in distrust of organizations and I've seen absolutely nothing in my lifetime to dissuade me from that view.

Shp - 'Numbers mean nothing in this context.'

Danny - True, but I really didn't mean the numbers to be a major thing...only in relation to...

Shp - 'I am now aware of many hurt people who were just as devoted and sincere as I am'

Danny - You should be aware, for perspective's sake, that there ARE many people have been helped and inspired by Maharaji, and who love him. 'Hurt' doesn't even enter the picture. It's not a mine is bigger than yours thing and I'm sorry if it read that way.

Shp - ' I always wanted to give my loyalty to the Real Thing and still do, both inside me and out in the world.'

Danny - If you follow that as your gut-check, you'll be fine.

Shp - 'Question is, why would the Master set up his devotees to fail in the world and lose a job just to have a few more hours
together?'

Danny - Sorry, Sandy. This doesn't sound like what was happening at all. It was clearly for the joy, in both directions. I'm sure Maharaji wasn't hoping for people to fail. By the way, how does that dovetail with the ever-popular, deeply perceptive, it's all for the $ theory?

Shp - 'premie families with kids who felt like they were covered and being looked after by responsible adults who cared about them...and not some of these horror stories about premie kids that are coming out.'

Danny - In my experience, the premie kids, by and large, are some of the most beautiful, well-rounded kids I've ever met, including those whose parents now denounce Maharaji, though their kids were brought up in that atmosphere. Deadbeat parents, whoever they are, are a disgrace.

Lastly (whewww), in another place, you wrote,

Shp - 'The true Creator hears the sincere cry from one heart of one of his creatures and will cross the Universe to answer that cry, using all the atoms and molecules and creatures at His disposal to respond so that the needy heart knows it is the real answer it is feeling. Fairy tales? I think not.

This is the truest thing you have written. You might have to be looking up, not down, to catch it.

Danny

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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 22:12:51 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: P.S.
Message:
Sandy,

If I don't respond, that means I'm not here, Ok?


Danny the Clearly Not Avoiding but Otherwise Engaged

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Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 02:44:20 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: mcpass1@earthlink.net
To: Danny
Subject: Just read your responses
Message:
Danny,

I just read your response and all subsequent posts. I need time to digest your words as well as the words I hear on this site by the exers. I think I am smart enough to not eat the puke of others. Sometimes we have to eat bitters though, for our own good, which should not be mistaken for the leavings of others, even though they don't taste great. Very cleansing, healing and medicinal, though.

I don't have the strength to answer you in full right now, but I would like to have more of an answer to the Jagdeo question, as I am sure would Susan and Abi. What would you have done if Susan or Abi were your daughters or your sisters or your wife and you caught wind of the story immediately or years after it happened and you discovered how long Jagdeo had been in the field traveling the world right under Maharaji's nose. Add to that Susan having told you that she informed some of the people who were close to Maharaji and she was assured that the message had been passed. Now add to that years later EV claiming total ignorance of the whole matter, nobody remembers anything and Susan pouring her heart out to Maharaji himself in a letter and getting no response, not even from an assistant. Danny, it just doesn't add up. If this wasn't about Maharaji and Jagdeo, but rather about some other teacher and mahatma, it would not be such rocket science to figure out or explain, you know? We'd look at each other and words would not even be necessary. It would be a no-brainer. I am not harping on this to hurt anyone or bring anyone down. I am harping on this, believe it or not, out of devotion, not a concept of love, but love itself, which dwells inside each of us. If one of us is wronged, especially by a wolf in sheep's clothing, it is all the more incumbent upon those of us who are aware of the matter to make as much noise as possible so that it never happens again on our watch. I should not feel like I am in the McCarthy era with a pink shirt on if I open my mouth and cry wolf if there is a wolf in our midst. If that is the case, then I am in the wrong flock.

I will get back to you on the rest. I have put my e-mail address at the top. Please e-mail me and let me know who you are and how you know me. If you want your identity kept confidential, I will allow you the same space you need to do that as I do some ex-premies. I believe in live and let live and to each their own, just so it's not resting on my toes or anyone else's that I am aware of.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 18:37:43 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Quite shp
Message:
Once again, you missed it. If Maharaji had said to plan ahead for your kids instead of not worry about the 'little boss', many of us would have taken our careers more seriously and this would have ultimately benefitted Maharaji with more steady, solvent premie families with kids who felt like they were covered and being looked after by responsible adults who cared about them.

This to me was always the biggest stumbling block around gm, that he NEVER set up the conditions wheryby people would get the most from the experience, relaxation, empowerment etc which would have GUARANTEED him something active, truly alive, and growing.

To see the number of good people gradually ground down, especially by the conceptual loop-backs and denials, as well as rawat's denial of his responsibilities. What a waste.

I actually left because it worked too well for me, that it became obvious he didn't give a monkey's about spreading this blah-de-blah to EVERYONE. No as he admits now, it's just an elite little crowd, although what is so elite about it is the committment to stupidity and denial and smug superiority, always the sign of a weak stance.

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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 15:55:09 (GMT)
From: Shp
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: I know it's a holiday weekend and you may be away,
Message:
but Danny, I am waiting to hear from you, point by point on my response. If the local rabble bothers you, just tune them out and deal with me. You can do it. Whenever....
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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 10:25:27 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Respect -nt-
Message:
Spot on, Sandy!
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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 23:17:11 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Go shp go nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 23:38:18 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Bin Liner
Subject: And stay, shp, stay...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 02:44:19 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: You tell em shp, them nasty premies...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 02:43:33 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Weren't you and shp and almost everyone else? nt
Message:
Weren't you all one of those 'nasty' premies. OK, I was a less-than-half-hearted wannabee who never bought anyone's hook-line-and-sinker'.
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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 02:53:07 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: You got me there.
Message:
But doesn't matter, Stonor you tell em mate.

I am confused.

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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 05:01:22 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: C'mon Salam ... you are not confused ... or alone
Message:
What are you confused about? You have it in one life experience - how can you shit on the 'idiot' when the idiot was you? I watch it on the bus everyday - I was the young highschool student, proud to have a boy on my arm, I was the young college student with the proud new vocabulary and concepts - it's all the same game; I have special knowledge/connections, and that makes me special .. I think. (NOT)

Now I'm the middle-aged idiot - been there; done that.

I am confused, but I am NOT an idiot (not). ;-)

Anna

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 18:06:46 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Elmer Gantry
Message:
There is this 1960 Oscar-winning flick, Elmer Gantry which tells about some holy-rolling bible-stumping Lancaster character that look familiar. My advice? Everyone must give it an hour or two. Any feedback, Jim, anyone?
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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 20:51:40 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Halleluiah...
Message:
...Brother, Halleluiah

Fantastic film.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 17:04:16 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: reply to Danny( from inactive)
Message:
I do not know if you have read everything I have posted about Jagdeo, but I hope if you haven't you will.
Everything I have said about what happened is the absolute truth. I knew Randy fairly well back then. I do not know him at all now. But you are mistaken in your assumption that no one has contacted him. Until last year, I believed Randy was one of the more decent people I met in the cult. In fact, I went way out of my way to try NOT to demonize him as he was someone I felt was always very kind to me. He was, when I told him about Jagdeo, very supportive and kind. Randy was not a stranger to me, he used to help me with my homework, and he came to my home and convinced my mom to let me join the ashram at 16. I just cannot buy that he 'forgot' what I told him.

I did not want to put Randy or Judy in the position of having to 'choose' between telling the truth about this, and their loyalty to Mr. Rawat. I believe that at the time both Randy and Judy did nothing but try to do their best to do what was right about what I told them. I chose to tell Judy for precisely the reasons you think it is impossible she knew or is lying, because she was a midwife and I felt she would understand. I think she did understand. I think she probably remembers too.

It sure looks to me like they did tell Rawat. There really is no other explanation for what Judy said to me that ' he already knew and was glad it was not a new incident'

You are so off base with thinking that any part of my goal is to make either of them look bad. I agonized over the fact that to tell the story I had to drag them into it. They helped me back then. And it is coming back to haunt them. 'No good deed shall go unpunished'. But it isn't MY fault for telling the truth. Really, my guess is that the reason Randy and Judy do not 'remember' is that Rawat has asked them not to or implied they should not. I hope there is someone out there reading this that they told about Jagdeo years ago. Now would be a good time to speak up. I would bet that there are more people who can attest to what I am saying.

Danny, what have said is the truth and I really resent your implying otherwise.

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Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 05:32:01 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Nigel,Bazza,Bin,SHP,Cynth
Subject: thanks for all those nice posts
Message:
I am not sure why I felt compelled to discuss this with Danny but I did. Everytime the subject comes up, if I see the thread, I have a hard time not getting involved.

I appreciate the support all of you have given me and it means a lot. I do not see myself as a victim so much as someone who got away. But there were people who didn't get away, and they were quite a bit younger than I was.

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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 00:47:08 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Susan
Subject: What pisses me off...
Message:
...is the way 'Danny' uses his anonymity to cast doubt on your integrity, Susan, and that of Michael Dettmers when both of you have shown the courage to use your own names. To hint that he has privileged knowledege of what Randy P did or did not say without telling the whole story or reveal who he is (or the nature of his EV role) simply stinks.

I don't think anyone (even Danny) doubts your words, Susan. His is a different agenda in which truth, empathy and natural justice take second place to locating his Master beyond suspicion.

Take care, Susan, you know there are a lot of good people behind you still. Please take no notice of this terminally cult-conditioned creep.

Nige

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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 01:53:47 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: Nigel
Subject: I agree - Danny pls read
Message:
I've been told there are good reasons some people choose anonymity. What's yours Danny?

Danny, your words have no power behind them. None. Zip. Zero. If you are not prepared to state who you are and stand behind these statements of yours, then they are worthless.

We both know why you hide, don't we? Look, I left the cult not 3 days ago Danny, I'm not someone who's stuck in the 70's, I was backstage at a knowledge selection Q&A in May of this year. I know how important it is that the people you rely on to give you service at the events dont know you indulge yourself here. I understand, believe me, the cringeing embarrassment you'd feel if somehow your name got written here in big, bold letters. You wouldnt sleep tonight. You'd wrack your brains for excuses, search through the archives to see just how big of an ass you'd made of yourself. Next time you were at an event, you'd think maharaji's stern gaze was meant just for you and you'd shrivel up in your seat.

So don't think we dont understand why you hide behind a mask, we do. But the point is, unless you simply like to read back your own posts and delight in their accuity and wit, you are wasting your time. Like I said, your words carry no weight or power because there is noone there behind them.

In fact, dont even bother replying. You are nobody.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 23:05:58 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Danny is a cult spin doctor.........
Message:
..........& he's very good at it.

You speak the truth , so you shall prevail.

Don't let the bastards get you down.


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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 05:20:26 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Danny is a cult spin doctor.........
Message:
Bin,

That is the exact vibe I got, but you put the words around it for me...a spin doctor, intentional or subconscious, but spin it is.
And the 'x-rated' premies will mess with people here and call it service. So where does that leave anyone who seeks credibility in a dialog with someone such as Danny?

I have stood in chicken coops with 9,000 chickens hanging out in them. The ones with the broken wings and the diseases are shunned and eventually pecked to death by the others. We are not chickens, we are human beings. I will not stand by and be a silent witness to people like Susan get pecked at by some chicken who can't speak with his own name.

If God is everywhere, then He is here too, dammit!

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 18:54:49 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Susan, I believe you
Message:
Dear Susan,

Whoever ''Danny'' is, and whatever he has said about you, and to you is nothing but bullshit. I'm so sorry you still have to withstand such ignorance after everything you have put up with thus far concerning Jagdeo and Maharaji, et al.

I believe what you have said about what Jagdeo did to you, and that you indeed told Randy and Judy about it. I'm sure that they conveyed the information to Maharaji.

I also believe you have tremendous courage.

Why? Because Maharaji singled you out in his website's FAQs and later retracted it. Why? Because you are telling the truth. Why do Randy and Judy refuse to ''recall'' anything? I can't speak for them nor for Maharaji, but in my book, they're all a bunch of low-life cowards, whose self-preservation is more important to them than telling the truth.

About something despicable that happened to a young girl named Susan who placed her trust in people who weren't worthy of her trust. You don't deserve such disrespect and harrassment.

Yet you have courage and more. Were I in your place I don't know what I would be doing, especially after yesterday's contemptible posts about your very personal experience of abuse and the backlash from the cult as a result of your telling about it.

Susan, you don't have to explain anything to anyone--you've already done that. I do applaud your ability to continue to respond to jerks who come here thinking that they know something and lie to protect a fraud. No one has a right to question your truthfulness. Yet this is not a typical backlash. This is cult backlash. The dynamic is so different in your case because of the insidiousness of Maharaji's self-protective cult programming of his PAMs. But you already know all this. I just want to remind you that I believe you and care about you as do others here.

I hope you're doing okay. You of all people do not need to be raked over the coals about this over and over again.

Shame on Jagdeo. Shame on Maharaji. Shame on Randy Prouty and Judy Osborne too. They were adults then and are adults now. For shame, for shame, for shame. Those incredible creeps. I would never have the tolerance you've expressed toward Randy and Judy.

You're a righteous woman, Susan.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 15:44:18 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Search engine watch
Message:
Searching for 'maharaji' on AltaVista brings up a load of Maharaji's spam with ex-premie.org in at number 12 and The Great Worldwide Linkup at number 16. The Truth About Maharaji is only at number 57 on that search engine.

Yahoo is much better.

Click here for the Yahoo search results for maharaji

I haven't checked other search engines but it's clear that Maharaji's attempt to spam all the ex sites out of the search engines isn't working.

.. Dave

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 18:19:29 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Google
Message:
My favourite search engine, Google, has Roger's house of Drek at number nine, and ex-premie.org and truth about M on the third page, in the twenties. Then all that other crap...poetry about M, etc. I had no idea there was so much pro-premie stuff out there!
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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 18:50:07 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Google
Message:
If you use dogpile.com, an option screen presents itself with the following:

Premis, Ex-premie, Poetry Quotes, Personal Quotes, Maharaji.org,
Ex-premie Homepage, Nutsbolts.

This site is right up there with the Lard's junk.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 18:52:41 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Oops! I should have said DOGPILE.COM (nt)
Message:
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooops!
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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 13:32:09 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Bimbo
Subject: To Bimbo
Message:
Bimbo,

You wrote

Ps- I discussed with my teraphist the reason for the hatred here at this pages. She suggested, (like also Roger e Drek has), the bottom line might be fear. I think Michael has done ex-premies a favour, in a different way than he thinks.

Care to explain ?

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 17:12:56 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Bimbo
Subject: The rest of that post
Message:
This is the whole post Bimbo wrote replying to mine about freedom:

I think I have to disapoint you Barry. I am not afraid. I have written to Maharaji about my posting here. I have no desire to make a career in EV.

Well I applaude you for that and sorry if you felt offended. Now does maharaji know under what name/s you post here? And if you have laid your soul bare before the Perfect Master, who else matters, right, so why the need for an alias?

I went to a theraphist and told her about what is going on here and about my relationship to my master(not mentioning his name). She advised me to stay with my belief. By the way, I consider myself to be very pragmatic.

I wonder if you really gave the therapist enough information to make an informed response? I mean if you didnt mention maharaji, and the cult implication which goes with that, shes just going to think hes another religious teacher no? Cant she see that your 'beliefs' are doing your head in? Maybe you need a different therapist?

To me freedom is the sense of flying on the wings of love.

Very poetic. Me, I cant live out my life on flowery thoughts, it has to be a bit more tangible, grounded than that. So long as your thoughts and beliefs have to be moulded to fit maharajis teachings youre not free. For example, you might believe in reincarnation, but because he poo-poos that as Hindu concepts, you find yourself acceeding to his 'greater wisdom.' Not freedom. Another example, you might find you enjoy reading zen or doing zen meditation, but you know he disapproves of premies mixing things up like that. Not freedom.

Any time I will meet you face to face. I have nothing to fear and nothing to hide.

You are most welcome. I have some excellent beer in the fridge.

Bimbo for a reason

You do realize that in english/american, 'bimbo' usually refers to an airhead blonde chick? Hey if thats what you are, I really would like to meet you! (just kidding, Im married)

Ps- I discussed with my teraphist the reason for the hatred here at this pages. She suggested, (like also Roger e Drek has), the bottom line might be fear. I think Michael has done ex-premies a favour, in a different way than he thinks.

How can she suggest anything of the kind if you didnt tell her whats really going on? Why dont you give her the url to expremie.org and let her decide for herself?Sounds like shes just giving stock answers - you tell her theres a lot of hatred here and she refers to her pocket Freud and tells you its due to fear. Hatred here comes from disillusionment, wasted years, deceipt, abuse, lies, shattered hope......Why not ask her why maharaji has not once responded to any critisism here, nor to your letter, or mine, or the hundreds of others hes probably received. She may actually get that one right. (fear)

take care

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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 06:48:19 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Bazza
Subject: The rest of that post
Message:
did someone assume m knew somethng? like from another dimen
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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 19:44:38 (GMT)
From: Bimbo
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: A reply to Salem and Bazza
Message:
Hi
I gave a reply to Anth, and he did not accept it, so I will not assume you will accept my replies to your questions.

You don’t know my situation, nor me so I don’t think you can understand.
Anyway here are just a few comments about what I think;

Re Freedom
I think freedom is a personal individual experience I have been so lucky to reach. Even so, I am always longing to be in that state of existence.

Re hatred of this site
I described to her, the hatred towards Maharaji, and the way others and I was abused as well as Maharaji and his family. I told some things told were true, something’s lies. I also told a few things Maharaji said, (I never mentioned his name) and she was pretty impressed by his sayings. She also expressed I had insight in a lot of important issues. She agreed that doing meditation and listen to Maharaji, was good for me as long as I enjoy it. (Which btw is why I am doing it), She was the one who asked why people behaved like they did here and we discussed issues like envy and jealousy as well as fear. We did not reach a definite conclusion, but I think we had a common understanding.
Roger eDrek once posted that sometimes he feared that after all, Maharaji might be “the Lord”.
My comment about why Michael’s posts has been a favor to ex-premies, is that now I think people are more convinced that Maharaji sucks, so the atmosphere is not so tense, the abuse is not so gross, the hatred is not so intense anymore.

Anyway take care yourself

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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 01:38:08 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Bimbo
Subject: A reply to Salem and Bazza
Message:
Bimbo,

What would you say to ulf, Bazza and Tim? These are people that decided to leave Rawat’ little nest in the last few weeks.

What would you say to shp?

You know shp reminds me of the American elections. Would you think that shp will be living in fear if he becomes an ex?

How would you tackle a situation where a person does not have knowledge, say Stonor, yet believes that Rawat is a con merchant.

What do you think of Djuro? Do you think he is doing Rawat any credit?

Why are posting here again under a different name? I am sorry to tell you that if you are Bjorne(and even if you were not), then it is apparent that your mental health has deteriorated since you where here last. You have become more unstable, erratic and in need of counciling. How do you classify yourself?

You conclusion in other words is a load of bullshit because you are basing it on one mans saying.

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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 01:07:09 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Bimbo
Subject: A reply to the reply
Message:
Hi Bimbo (god I feel stupid using that name!!)

Your right of course I dont know you or your situation - least I guess not given I dont know your real name anyway, so anything people say to you here is based just on what we can glean from your posts.

That being said it does strike me a s abit weird that you should have tobe in therapy because of reading/writing here. If it upsets you so much wouldnt it make sense to just stay clear? Did your therapist suggest that at all? From what you describe youve given that lady a one-sided viewpoint (yours) so that she'll reinforce your opinion of the forum. But isnt that what therapists are about anyway, making you feel good about yourself?

All I can say is that if you have questions about maharaji, rather than trying to address them here, you should keep writing to him and insist on an answer. Stand up at the next event and yell out that you need to talk to him, maybe he'll answer before the SWAT team gets to you. Can you think of why he hasnt written back to either of us? I mean how many 'resignation' letters does he get every day? You'd think it would warrant a little personal attention, right?

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 13:54:43 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bimbo
Subject: To Bimbo
Message:
Bimbo,

I pulled our conversation up from below- the one where I'm trying to get you to answer a couple of questions. It was about to go inactive so I've pulled it up here-

Bimbo wrote:
Hi Anth who loves to watch them (me) squirm? Really? Are you Anth the Sadist? BTW I did not squirm, I actually find you questions silly.
One question already answered. Here are the rest:
1. Q: Do I consider myself a member of a cult? A: I consider myself to be a member of the human race.
2. Q: What are your three main criticisms of Maharaji?
A: According to this site; his drinking, his role in the Jagdeo case, and his wealth. I have a philosophy not to try to judge or criticise people if I never been in their shoes.
3. Q: What I think is the difference between a Premie and a Moonie. A: I suppose a premie admires Maharaji, a Moonie admires Rev. Moon.

But what freedom do you obtain from being an ex-premie?

AJW responded:
Bimbo-
Question 1.
I didn't ask you if you considered yourself a member of the human race, I asked if you considered yourself a member of a cult.

Try again.

Question 2.
I didn't ask you to chose three criticisms from the site, I asked what YOUR three main criticisms are.

Try again.

Question 3.
Pathetic answer. 1 out of 10. I expected at least a few sentences.

Now for the answer to your question, 'What freedom do I experience by being an Ex-premie?'

By being an ex-premie you experience the freedom to think and act for yourself. You experience the freedom of living a life where you don't have to feed all your thoughts through the 'Guru Box' and plan your life around your wierd ideas of practising knowledge and being a devotee.

You experience the freedom of trusting your own thought and judgement- rather than rely on the vague, contradictory ramblings of the out of touch, and quite confused master.

You experience the freedom of not having to lie to yourself about how your hopes and aspirations of a life with the living lord have been trimmed down, and dashed.

You experience the freedom of unloading years worth of stale hindu concepts.

You experience the freedom of spending more time with your friends and family.

You experience the freedom of learning how to love your fellow human beings again.

You experience the joy of no longer kidding yourself.

Will that do for now- or would you like some more?

Anth who would definitely like more.

By the way Bimbo- you say you don't judge anybody unless you've been in their shoes. You haven't worn the shoes of an Ex-premie yet, but you don't mind judging us. We, however, have worn the shoes of a premie- and our judgment is based on having experienced both sides of the coin.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 18:50:16 (GMT)
From: Bimbo
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, I already replied in a post below
Message:
In the inactive tread of SHP 'Stuff I believed..Michael D and anyone, help'

Anyway When you don't accept my answer, I think that is your problem. Not mine. Bimbo

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Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 19:21:23 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bimbo
Subject: My problem, your problem.
Message:
Bimbo,

Your problem is that you're in a cult.

That's why you dodge the questions.

So come on Bimbo- what are YOUR three main criticisms of Maharaji?

(Squirm squirm squirm.)

Anth the sadist

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Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 22:46:07 (GMT)
From: Bimbo
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You have no idea about my problem Anth
Message:
I have no membership in any cult so how come this is my problem.

I did not dodge the questions,

I am free. I can answer any question I want to, in the way I want to, or I can choose not to answer.

I gave you an answer, if you dont like my answer what can I do?

Bimbo the fair

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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 17:08:04 (GMT)
From: fuck off and die you puke
Email: None
To: Bimbo the pedophile
Subject: I know what your problem is
Message:
You're a freak !!!
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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 19:02:25 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bimbo
Subject: Bimbo: You are a coward
Message:
What's your name, BIMBO?

BTW, you most certainly did not answer the questions, you just glazed over the questions with your own cult spin.

Read the questions again and THINK!!

Oh, I forgot, you aren't allowed to think, are you? Maharaji doesn't allow that in the cult.

Give it a try....thinking that is...you might be surprised.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 14:00:50 (GMT)
From: French dessert found
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: What about tomorrow's fiesta? (ot)
Message:
Shall we bring something ?

How many people are you expecting ?

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 14:13:23 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: French dessert found
Subject: What about tomorrow's fiesta? (ot)
Message:
8 people altogether.

Dessert serai magnifique.

a demain

anth the parisien tart

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 14:01:45 (GMT)
From: French dessert found
Email: None
To: French dessert found
Subject: Previous post for Anth !!! (nt)
Message:
sorry !!
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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 04:16:22 (GMT)
From: Mr Bubblehead
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Lies, lies, lies...ot
Message:
Greetings boys and girls. I was talking to a woman friend and she was bemoaning the lack of good men around today. I have the same complaint about today's women; but anyway. This got me to thinking about the system we live in and how people seem to differentiate between their professional ethics and their private ones (if they had any to begin with, that is). There is a distinct lack of honour in people today. Take the American election; everyone knows their being lied to, be they democrats or reps, but they vote for them anyway. Voting for a lying (and worse) politician is no big deal. No one would doubt Nader’s honesty sincerity, but that didn’t get him many votes. Now back to where I began; the lack of good men. How can men and women realize their innate potential in a system like this? Women love good, honest, honourable men. I have them hanging off me like flies. Just yesterday I had a really well preserved 84-year-old flirting with me, but you have to draw the line somewhere hey. We seem to be sinking into a cesspool of stinky, grey, slushy stuff, and nobody seems to care.
Mr B
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Date: Thurs, Nov 30, 2000 at 04:34:21 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mr Bubblehead
Subject: That 84 year-old wasn't by any chance...
Message:
Dear Mr. Bubblehead,

That 84 year-old wasn't by any chance a Mrs. Scruggle, was it? I do hope she didn't bother you too much. She seems like a very sweet old woman with a sharp sense of humour! How are things in Bubbleland. I am terribly sorry I haven't visited for a while, but I will try to make a greater effort. (I think I slipped into aome of that 'stinky, grey, slushy stuff.' I'm glad to hear that you have been getting more than enough attention!!! (... like flies, eh?!)

Affectionately,

Ms. Anna

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 15:19:58 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mr Bubblehead
Subject: a politician is... (ot)
Message:
If a diplomat is someone who goes abroad to lie for his country..

then a politician is someone who stays home and lies to his country.

Things were ever thus, I think.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 00:00:41 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Replacing 'Knowledge' with gut knowing
Message:
I wrote this to SHP far below, in the very long thread where he asks for help with his doubts as he leaves the cult.

I am sitting waiting for my organic turkey to cook, and I thought I would start a new thread to refresh the top here, as the Djuro stuff has pushed the interesting stuff way, way down below.

Dear SHP,
Hey, congratulations on your authentic expression of being in the middle of lots of conflicting beliefs.

Here's my 2 cents, as an ex-premie for 16 years, who also worked a lot with people exiting from MJ and other cults, as a consultant:

Biblical quotes can be used for anything. I'm not even sure where you got those quotes that were extracted and used to show that MJ was the reincarnation of Christ. But you surely know that the Bible has any number of translations and interpretations. There is a fascinating book called 'Prayers of the Cosmos' by Neil Douglas-Klotz, that gives the translation of the aramaic words of Jesus, which turns out to be VERY different than what the usual Bible says.

Anyway, I wanted to say a bit in reference to the whole discussion below about hope and letting go of hope and doing it yourself, and all that. What it all came down to, for me, was what I believed, not only consciously, but unconsciously. When I came to MJ I was consciously an atheist, and actually raised as such, but having some definite experiences of a Higher power that were knocking my socks off and changing my life. I found myself in satsang and my immediate, gut response, was that the people were sort of cultish and the light in their eyes wasn't the real light of human gleaming to human, but human who thinks they know something that others don't. They weren't kind to me, with my insistent questions, until I surrendered and started getting interested in Knowledge. Then I was fodder for brainwashing, for days and days, still not loving. Somehow, in my very open and searching state, I lost touch with my inner compass, my direct, gut-level, felt sense of what was real, after a few days of satsang. I didn't get that inner compass back for at least 12 years, when my intense pain forced me to explore therapy and other practices to honor my own real inner knowing (quite, quite different from so-called 'Knowledge,' which in combination with the programming about exclusively-given-by, and must-be-a-devotee-to-realize was actually suppressing my inner knowing.

When I started to get my 'inner knowing' back, it was everything that Knowledge had been billed as. It's quite funny, when I put it this way! I was able, finally, to admit to myself that MJ wasn't loving at all. I sat at a program, actually acknowledging what my emotional body was telling me as he ranted and played cute, and I was amazed that I had managed to shut up this brilliant BS detector for so long (with terrible health consequences, BTW). This inner compass guided me to lots of people and groups and teachings and other teachers, which I sampled and learned, or discarded and moved on, all being checked against my gut. The result was that my spiritual life blossomed in the most amazing way. I found that I could access my own inner guidance quite easily, that there was definitely some kind of source with accompanying grace to be accessed. But the beliefs I now projected on this 'source' were radically different than the ones around MJ, which were programmed into me for his benefit (give him everything, etc.). I decided to CHOOSE the kinds of attributes I wanted for my Higher Power (or whatever you want to call it), including such things as 'cares personally about me,' 'loves and supports all parts of me, including emotions and body and sexuality and desires,' etc. etc. This might sound cynical, but since God is supposedly infinite, we all have our belief window to access this more expanded consciousness - or more expanded version of ourselves, and we may as well create this consciously, since otherwise there are lots of other people and beliefs floating around that will happily fill the vacuum. And the observer does create the result of the experiment, and it's okay to tweak one's spiritual experience in this way. At least, no Divine Meat Axe has cut my head off, although people - even ex-premies - have been a bit disapproving at times. I am enjoying experiencing the support of the universe, and being quite diligent in creating the beliefs about things that I want, rather than the default subconscious stuff or, as I said, other people's beliefs, that will otherwise form my experience of 'reality.'

You are free if you decide that you are. You are on a path that is inevitably taking you to greater and greater spiritual awareness, if you decide you are. You are accessing your real inner knowing, if you decide you are.

And that fat Indian guy has absolutely NOTHING to do with any of it. He is irrelevant.

I guess I wanted to say this because it hasn't been my experience that I've been 'on my own' spiritually since leaving MJ, as some of the post below may imply. I have certainly had to use all parts of my own power and courage and personal intuition, but I have felt more support, love and grace from 'the other side' than I ever did while a premie (despite what I would have told you back then).

Hope this helps.

Love, Disculta

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 00:29:56 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo
To: Disculta
Subject: Replacing 'Knowledge' with gut knowing
Message:
excellent posting Disculta and most encouraging for someone who wants to hold onto belief for a while. Personally I think beliefs are dangerous but I'm one hundred percent with you when you speak of a Higher Power [or whatever you call it]. There is a miracle to be experienced for all of us..its just when we start projecting onto it or naming it that the Trouble starts.Oh to see life accurately without any interpretations.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 21:03:39 (GMT)
From: ulf
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: kids
Message:
hi there
thank you all , for this forum , i think Dettmers letters
have made it clear , that we all was into a litlle rich kids
stupid games .
It was all just so fake
I dont really see or understand why i was involved for so many years.
It just became the thing i did

So many years i have been seeing theese video`s, of maharaj.ji
and asking my kids to leave me in peace, while i see them
and why : because i was brainwashed to belive that this was the
only real thing in this world
I really have belived that someday when they was older
i couldt tell them about the meaning of this live

Thank god it never took place, thank you all.

Ulf

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 10:37:12 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: Parental duty
Message:
Hi ulf,

one of the things I'm really glad about, is that my wife and I never laid the Lard trip onto our children.

They both went to see the Hamster a couple of times. My youngest one said the programme reminded him of film he'd seen of Hitler and the Nazis.

The oldest one went to Australia, stayed with some old premie friends, went to a few aspirant programmes and decided he wanted knowledge. When he returned to the UK, I'd done a complete turn around on my view of it all and had quit. He told me he wanted to receive knowledge and I gave him my 'Journey' to read. I chatted to him about it for about half an hour and he changed his mind.

Phew. I did my parental duty in the nic' of time.

Anth the dad

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 11:39:07 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Parental duty
Message:
If any of your children wanted to know the meditation as prescribed by god in hymen form, would you feel any reluctance to 'reveal the techniques'.

With my own children, (they're only 8 & 9) we got a book from the library about yoga, one day. Not the Hindu stuff but the sort where you wrap your legs round your head etc. Since my kids are into acrobatics they liked the yoga book. I mentioned my version of the techniques when they asked me what meditation was. I explained that some people concentrate on their breath, which is about as far as it went.

I wonder if most offspring of ex-premies (or even current premies) actually know what 'the knowledge' is and don't have to 'receive it' anyway - like it's common knowledge.

Maharaji has fed on people's curiosity by not letting them know what his meditation techniques are, in order to entrap them. Considering this fact, if his former devotees' children know the techniques from their parents, they will be very unlikely to become a member of Maharaji's cult.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 13:17:05 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Personal Knowledge Session
Message:
Hi Sir Dave,

I wouldn't have a problem revealing the techniques to anyone who wanted to know them, including my children.

I wouldn't tell them they were going to experience the knowledge of all knowledges though.

In my knowledge session, I'd introduce the techniques something like, 'And somehow, the guru got us all to believe that the patterns, falling wax, breathing and snot you are about to concentrate on was the Infinite Creator within.'

Anth the Fatguru

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 23:45:38 (GMT)
From: ulf
Email: None
To: AJW and David
Subject: Kids
Message:
I am also happy that i never told my kids or others about the
so called truth i was into, that is for the last 10 years or so.

before that time i was into given satsang like we all where.
At one point i made up my mind not to tell about it anymore, mostly because nobody really wanted to hear about it, i think i said to myself something like this :if this i am doing is the real thing
if it is really the aim of human life , then people will se it in me, and come and ask me what i am doing.... nobody ever asked!!
Such a narcistisk litlle fool i was

So how much it has afected my children having a cult member as their father ,i dont really know , i think it is not much.

If they someday come and ask me about the fat chinaman i used to listen to (that was what they used to call him )
i think i will show them Abbie Hoffmans video called The lord of the universe, there they can se what daddy did when he was young
and se the technicks too. fathers do make mistakes!!!!!

ulf

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 20:07:43 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Giving Thanks
Message:
I received this in an email, and thought I'd share it. I don't like all the sappy holiday stuff, but the following is a reminder of how fortunate we are.

If you have food in the refrigerator, clothes on your back, a roof overhead and a place to sleep ... you are richer than 75% of this world.

If you have money in the bank, in your wallet, and spare change in dish someplace ... you are among the top 8% of the world's wealthy.

If you woke up this morning with more health than illness ... you are more blessed than the million who will not survive this week.

If you have never experienced the danger of battle, the loneliness of imprisonment, the agony of torture, or the pangs of starvation... you are ahead of 500 million people in the world.

If you can attend a church meeting without fear of harassment, arrest, torture, or death ... you are more blessed than three billion people in the world.

If your parents are still alive and still married ... you are very rare, even in the United States.

If you hold up your head with a smile on your face and are truly thankful ... you are blessed because many can, but most do not.

If you can hold someone's hand, hug them or even touch them on the shoulder ... you are blessed because you can offer healing touch.

If you can read this message, you just received a double blessing in that someone was thinking of you, and furthermore, you are more blessed than over two billion people in the world that cannot read at all.

And.lastly, my input:

If you were in a cult and were able to extricate yourself, you have cause for real gratitude.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 08:01:21 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: wow, that was a great post! Thanks~ (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 22:33:54 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: thanks
Message:
The original dept. I worked in at my job was really intense, lots of stress and overtime, mismanagement etc.
Several of us who found other depts. to work in get together for lunch every once in a while, call ourselves the I Got Out Club.
You reminded me of the thanks I feel for getting out of M's club.
Hope all is well.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 22:06:12 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Thanks, Monmot -nt
Message:
xxxx
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 15:26:27 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: DO NOT READ WITH COFFEE IN YOUR MOUTH
Message:
Well you have been warned.

-CHARANAND, you boldi where are you?

CHHAAARAANNAANDD
-Oh yes lord.

-Oh stop saying that you mutt. Charanand, you speak English yes?
-Yes lord.
-Well do you know where England is?
-Yes lord.
-You are going there tomorrow?
-No lord.
-What?
-I am only a humble servant my lord and I like to be in your present oh my shining one.
-Ah shut up for Christ sake. I told you to stop this lord business.
-Yes lord.
-So you are going tomorrow OK.
-No lord.

-Shit. SURRRUPAAANAAND.
-Yes lord.
-Oh not you too. Sit. Good. You know that gang that you had a while back?
-What gang my lord?
-Sheesh. Do not you remember? When you and your mates shoved me in that Krishna thing and made me GOD.
-BOLI SHRI S..AA....t
-SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU MORON. Do you think I am deaf or something?
-Yes lord.
-What?
-No lord.
-Well, do you still have that gang or not?
-Well lord, by the grace of..
-YES OR NO?
-Yes lord.
-Good. Now come here for a sec. That’s what I want you to do. We are going to put some of that dope that our English friends have in Charanands food. You know how lightheaded he is. Once it hits him, I want you and your gang to grab hold of him, take him to the airport and put him on a non-stops flight to England, OK?
-No lord, I mean yes lord.
-So it’s done, give me five.
-Excuse me lord.
-Yes.
-I was thinking to myself lord that maybe we should put your mum or big brother on the flight instead.
-Hmmm, not a bad idea. How about both of them?
-Well lord, you know what happened last time we put some of that stuff in your mums’ food.
-Man do not remind me, I felt so embarrassed that I did not show my face for a week. Can you imagine your mother doing a strip in front of strangers. No I think we better stick with Charanad.
-OK lord. Poor haranad.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 12:51:28 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone plus Steve Quint
Subject: The basic Hindu negativity
Message:
I've posted this way down below to Steve Quint but it's about to go inactive so I'll post it here too:

What I mean by 'negativity' is the basic Hindu philosophy that people are born into the world because of some ridiculous idea of karma and that they have to escape from this world by practising Hinduism.
Basically, Hinduism preaches that the world is a bad place that you only came to out of error. They preach that everything here is a waste of time and you should spend your whole life practising Hinduism to prevent yourself from coming to this world again.

It's a very negative philosophy and one I've found to be completely untrue. In fact, the exact opposite philosophy appears to be true - that this world is a good place to come to and explore. One can develope important relationships here and can learn much from them. Rather than detatch from the world, by getting into it, one's real spirit can shine and grow. This has been my experience.

.. Dave

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 21:16:28 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: The basic Hindu negativity
Message:
The 160 million 'untouchables' would agree with you Sir David, and so do I.
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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 12:41:31 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: The Con Artist Formerly Known As M Is Steeped In
Message:
The Basic Hindu Negativity

Satsang, service and meditation are the age-old formula for leading one to liberation and knowledge of the truth.

Sound familiar?

He's not a total idiot, is he? He must have figured out at some point that 'practicing knowledge' would indeed lead one to the truth about him - that he is steeped in this most alien and negative tradition, that a leopard never sheds its spots, and that 'karma' - every action having a reaction - indeed applies and that you cannot repress a human's mind and intelligence forever. He has sown the seeds of his own demise and he must know it. He can't be that ridiculously stupid, can he? The two thousand dollar suits can only impress for so long.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:06:06 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Beware: whenever an 'ism' exists....
Message:
...it seems that someone, i.e. the one asking others to believe their 'ism', stands to gain something if enough believers can be recruited. This gain usually has to do with money and/or power.

Of course, if there is anyone alive now or in the past who actually knew something unique to help the life experience of humanity, than his/her 'ism' would be an exception to the rule.....

The history of the human race is cluttered with discarded beliefs...only to be replaced by yet another.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 13:58:00 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: The basic Hindu negativity
Message:
Dave,

What happened to the Sir.

Could it be that the Brahmans priests have a hidden agenda. When you add the cast system in, you have a perfect formula for a power hungry and a greedy ruler. Tell everyone that this live is to be dismissed and we should not look at material things. Create a cast, where the majorities are slaves, while a small elite is the priesthood and bingo, you get the cow and the milk.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 20:06:33 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: isms
Message:
not that anybody cares, but given the history, all the way back to the beginning, I think it's more likely that way back in the misty mists of time, there were actually people who experienced these cosmic states of awareness for real. Suposedly the sanskrit language was actually the identified vibration or sound that went with each thing. 'everything is a vibration', right? Well, sonically, it is. sans skrit means 'without writing: sans script. So at the start, that was how to invoke, evoke, or otherwise communicate to, summon and identify the world. It stands to reason that those with more aware consciousness would stand to earn the honor and respect of those without it, if they really did have insight and perception clearer than others. they would tend to be deferred to, and sought out for wisdom and solutions and answers. I think that was the beginning of the Brahmin Caste. I think in turn, the rest more or less were discerned for what they were good at, or good for. There are always warriors--people who take everything combatively and passionately, so much so, they like to fight. They were useful, if accepted as the defenders of everyone else. The merchants occur in society, too. So they were welcomed for their talents in supplying and procuring and producing for the rest of the group. And there is always the lousy, distasteful work at the bottom, that no one else wants to do. Except there is always somebody humble enough to volunteer, who isn't daunted by the notion. So they get the job, because they're willing, and it needs taking care of. People basically follow their natures and it works out well. I don't think it was a plot to control and dominate. i think it was a natural consequence of human nature. The pantheon of gods and deities are not arbitrary inventions. I myself have seen some of them, in extraordinary experiences, these last 27 years. I think they do exist, as reputed. So the scriptures tell true stories of them in the first person--at least, in the originals,the oldest of them do-- and the particular honors and respects given to each caste or class of people in the structure of society was normal, not imposed or forced.

For millennia, families have stayed in the same business, and passed it from father to son. we have mobility and variety now that did not characterize the ancient world. You are talking about 10,000 years back, and more.

As far as an 'ism', there can't be one, until there is another to contrast or conflict with it. and even then, you still just have two groups of people, each with their reality, encountering another. It isnt until you get intellectuals who distance themselves so far from the living , functioning society that they can afford to take that removed a perspective , that you get 'isms'. A reality, dynamically lived by a people for ages, suddenly gets shrunken down to a scholar's concept of what he thinks characterizes them. What he imagines is nothing like what they live. They find his notions laughable.

it is only after it is codified into an 'ism' does it become a subject in itself. at this point it becomes possible for people born into the society to hear about their culture's ways as a thing in itself, an abstract, a field to study, apart from what they live , day to day. And only at this point can a person living in it also explain to an outsider, by way of reference, for brevity, that he is 'a hindu' or 'a buddhist'. In reality, he is a human being, and he has experiences. but time and distance and intellect have made it possible for him to describe himself to someone else as an 'ist', now, rather than just speaking sincerely whatever he spontaneously feels, believes, sees, as his innocent ancestors did before there was anyone outside them, to tell them what they 'were'!

As for castes, be honest: we still have andwe still do this today. Think about how kids are steered into what kind of schooling, training, work etc, that is felt to be realistic for them, given their natures and abilities in life. Not everyone goes to college, or is fit for it. Those who can and do are our Brahmins. some go into the military and those are our warriors. Many many more go into industry and selling and mercantilism, to support themselves and the rest of our wishes, and lastly, we too have our thankless, horrid jobs, that must be done, though most would never accept the work: Mortician. embalming. funerals. crash site cleanup. hazardous waste handlers.medical waste handling. sewer and sewage management. stockyards of the cattle industry.slaughterhouses. trash dump operators, and so on.

don't be so quick to attribute egotistical motives to the natural self structuring of human society. It isnt all an evil plot. Most of it is ordinary, spontaneous practicality in response to whatever occurs.

in fact, most efforts to impose an 'ism' over people in the natural order, fail, ultimately. Think of Nazi-ism.Commun-ism.colonial-ism. Even the Roman Empire.(anyone got an -ism for that one?) People go with what works in their given surroundings, regardless of what some intellectual thinks they should do. As my landlord likes to remind me, 'Nature always votes last'.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 19:45:19 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: isms
Message:
I fell at the first fence there, Janet, though the rest of your post may well be the biz.

The word Sanskrit does NOT originate from 'sans script' - I don't know WHO told you that, but quoting such nonsense unfortunately weakens your credibility (sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but you're better off knowing the facts).

From the OED (Oxford English Dictionary)

Sangskrit, 8­ Sanskrit.
[ad. Skr. samskrta (neut. samskrtam) put together, well-formed, highly wrought, perfected, f. sam- together (related to sama: see same a.) + kr to make, do, perform. Cf. F. Sanscrit.
The 18th c. form Hanscrit, which occurs also in Fr. at the same period, has not been satisfactorily explained.]
A. n. The ancient and sacred language of India, the oldest known member of the Indo-European family, in which the extensive Hindu literature from the Vedas downward is composed. In a narrower sense, the ‘classical Sanskrit’ (opposed to the ‘Epic’ and ‘Vedic’), the grammar of which was fixed by Panini (? 4th c. b.c.).

That's the OED definition (the big one - all thirty-something volumes).

No praise, no blame.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 08:26:12 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Nop
Message:
I do not know about 10,001 years ago; neither I subscribe to the idea of sounds. But I know that:

Hinduism in its present form is paramount to racism. The Brahman priests are not at liberty to let go of the cast system. There is too much at stake. Power and money are things once you get to know you do not want to give away to easily.

Society is structured. It's a living creature that changes with the environment, resources, population, needs...etc. Carl Marx envisioned a society similar to the cast system. The system was a failure because it wanted to mould society to serve the socialist republic. Does not work.

Hinduism does this and it is successful. OK, so there is specialization in work too, but in general, in so called 'Democratic' societies there is a 'freedom of choice'. One can start a career path and stay on it for ten years then a time will come where one wants to change.

Hinduism does not work that way. Once you're born in a class, that's it, you stay in that class until you die. The issue does not only apply to the parents, but to the children and all descendent from here to eternity. A low cast is in general not a human. Low casts are treated like animals, their women are rapped, their men are killed and even the law does not punish a high-ranking class raja. In a recent incidence, a high-ranking class politician claimed that he rapped a woman of lower class to bolster his political base, and that was in parliament.

Hinduism is racism. Full stop.

Rawat sucks.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 20:29:39 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: janet
Subject: isms
Message:
Nature is on the side of the seducer.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 00:59:19 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Does EV have a Black List
Message:
Man, I e-mailed the bastards to subscribe to their newsletter, you know the new thing they have, and I have not received anything, it is been a week. Does it take that long or have the figured out that am the vice president of the ex-premie.org swearing team. I think I need to have a private talk with my Premie friend sometimes, she appears to be an EV kind of person.

I am bad

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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 03:42:33 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Salam
Subject: Visions Does, I Just Found Out
Message:
I just spoke to my former 'best friend' who's in charge of video sales and rentals in Vancouver. In the course of the conversation, he asked me not to rent any videos. It was kind of funny - he was one of the first people I confided in when I turned around my thinking about k a few months ago. I just now told him that after being the most frequent attendee at Vancouver events for the fourteen years I've lived here I haven't seen a complete video in at least two months. I think he finally caught on.

Anyway, I was kind of blacklisted as early as 1982 or so. That's a whole story unto itself, but I was never turned away from an event, only warned that 'if you do anything disrupting you'll never be allowed into an event again'. The day after that warning was given I found myself sitting for the first and only time in the front row in the side room of the Miami Beach Convention Centre next to Sampuranand, a few feet from m.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 12:14:24 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Salam
Subject: EV Is A Black List nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 02:20:50 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Put in front with the bodyguards
Message:
Were you put in front so people could keep an eye on you and see that you weren't making any trouble?

Curious George

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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 05:11:34 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Curious George
Subject: Put in front with Sampuranand and Marolyn
Message:
There were no visible bodyguards at that time, summer 1985.

I chose that seat. I thought at the time that it showed 'maharaji's grace'. I think now that either the security wasn't very good or the security wanted a 'bongo' a few feet from m. It was extra sweet because when I arrived in the hall, there were four seats in the front row with small pieces of masking tape on their backs indicating 'reserved' on them. I chose the vacant seat next to those four. I was talking to an usher and we both thought this small piece of tape wasn't noticable enough and I offered as a 'service' to go to the back of the hall, pick up four flyers sitting on a table to have them marked 'reserved' in bigger letters and placed on the seats. When I returned a few minutes later, my seat was also marked 'reserved' in the same one-inch masking tape. A different usher passed by, looked at me and at the seat. I told them the story, and they just said 'I guess it's o.k.' and walked away.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 05:37:04 (GMT)
From: FA
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Does EV have a Black List
Message:
Salam,

the previous occupant of this space is banned and her post has been removed.

FA

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 13:33:37 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: Ha Ha, another one bytes the dust.
Message:
I was preparing this reply for him:

Why you calling me gutless you weak insignificant yellow craven spineless mentally twisted ignobly timid and faint-hearted debased, despised, spiral, vermiculated invertebrate worm?
Did I ever talk to you brainwashed consumers of Rawat?

What hole do you normally live in?

What happened, eaten by a sparrow hai? Boofhead.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:05:01 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: LOL :) nt
Message:
haw haw haw
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 09:09:56 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: FA
Subject: Does EV have a Black List
Message:
Was it black cat or that Russian chick? E-mail me
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 05:50:07 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: Miaow, Miaow .
Subject: Does EV have a Black List - Yes it does
Message:
Thats a bit of a weird name to choose, whats that all about? Are you an ex? If so, I've been asking to meet ex's for coffee in the Maimi area if that applies to you.

I think salam was being sarcastic, Im sure he knows that posting here under our real names - if that is actally his - will put us on the bongo list and have us spotted at events. Do you know how they do that? I do, I used to install the equipment they use until 2 months ago.

Do you mind if I ask you, something I just cant get to grips with, is why people here dont use their real names? To me there simply is no power in anything a person says if he or she cant stand up and be seen for who they are. I can understand if someones in mortal fear for their safety, but if not, then whats the problem. Please dont be offended by this, i just would like to know the reasoning.

Barry Shaw

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 18:41:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Does EV have a Black List - Yes it does
Message:
As Dave mentions further in this thread some people have real safety concerns. But other than legit reasons the anonymity thing can get quite annoying especially when people aren't as forthright as they would be under their own identity and use several names.
An aside (but related):
Just rented 'The Insider' the story about how the corporate scientist of a huge tobacco company spoke out on 60 minutes. His interview helped bring a huge settlement $248 Million and debunked the statements of the tobacco industry that cigarettes (nicotiene) was not a drug.
HE also had a confidentiality clause that he had signed when the tobacco company fired him but he felt that speaking out was the right thing to do. He changed careers, lost a lot but he did it.
Anybody see it? Any thoughts?

And please before anyone says they don't really buy all they see in 'true story' movies, the credits said which parts were dramatized but the basic story is true. I remember seeing it on 60 minutes.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 12:17:50 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Does EV have a Black List - Yes it does
Message:
Sometimes it's not one's own inconvenience that is the worry but the inconvenience of one's dependents who share the same name.

.. Dave

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 18:42:43 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Real names
Message:
Thats a good point, hadnt thought of that one, thanks.
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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 00:05:11 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Real names
Message:
Hi Bazza -
Glad Sir Dave gave you that answer because it is an issue for several people I know. I should also add that I know some other people who prefer to remain anonymous because they or their relatives have joint child custody with premies.

Take care (and thanks for your 'security' answer!)
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 09:18:40 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: I'm curious
Message:
What kind of equipment do they use? The smart card?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 06:08:29 (GMT)
From: bill burke
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Does EV have a Black List - Yes it does
Message:
Hi Barry,
elan does but visions does not.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 05:36:02 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Does EV have a Black List
Message:
Yes they do, but its not related to the newsletter, just admission to events.(ask if you want to know more)

The newsletter is Listbot based and automatic. I suppose they could go in and manually edit the subscriber list, but that must be in the tens of thousands and would take forever, and if you were to use an alias email like hotmail they would never know its you.

But the real question is, why on earth do you want to see a page of maharajis satsang in your mailbox every day? Thats essentally what your getting. Theres no info there which isnt available on the online newsletter or the ev & elk websites. You just might get notified of events a couple of hours sooner. Big fucking deal!

Oh just a heads up - the newsletter does contain some pretty creative javascript and Fireworks code - it actually crashed my Mail Client repeatedly as it came in. Might want to get some programming boff to take a look at it and see whats in there. Not saying its hostile or invasive, but no other newsletter I subscribe to has anything like it. Must be some of Jossi Frescos script, that always sucks the big one. (look at m.org for example)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:27:03 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Black List for Events?
Message:
Hi Bazza!
I'm curious as to what you know about the black list for events admission. At least one person who posts here under her real name has tried to get into an event and been turned away - AFTER receiving an invitation.

I've often thought that I'd like to go to an event just to see what it's like nowadays. A few premies have assured me it wouldn't be a problem as long as I promised not to create a disturbance (and if anyone knows me, they know that I would NOT create a 'disturbance' - sheesh!) However, I think I probably wouldn't be allowed in - what do you think?

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 19:18:39 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Black List et answer to Tonette Q.
Message:
Well you have to remember that premies who are involved in security - Safety and Security they call it now, are mostly Secret Service wanabes. They walk around with their IFB's (Interviewer Foldback - small earphones hidden in the ear) acting all calm and macho, ready to pounce on that one bongo who they are SURE is out to get maharaji.

I've had discussions with them even in the past 3 months where there is a general consensus a potentially real threat exists to m. So I dont know who keeps 'the list' but I know it exists. Sure my name is on it now:) Fame at last. Naturally EV Inc has full deniability - but this only adds to their feeling of being part of an elite covert task force. I've heard them on the radio when maharaji is on his way - 'an 'Arrival' is imminent' even 'the Eagle has landed' (I kid you not!!!)

Smart cards have made it all a lot easier. Essentially they are just a magstripe encoded with a database call-up code. On that database file, which pops up when you swipe the card in the reader, is evereything you put on the application - name, address, email, knowledge history, mugshot, DoB etc. Even has the last program you attended. Now how hard is it for that file to be flagged if you one day go over the wall? Thats one use for it as described to me by someone who would know.

Even without a smart card, the lengthy registration lines gives the SS (Safety & Security) boys ample time to check your name against the list.

Once in the hall, you then come under the scrutiny of the hidden CCTV cameras hanging in the truss overhead. These little gems can move 360 deg and zoom in, and work in low light conditions. They are controlled from m.'s 'Command' area backstage. There's been talk of experiments with linking them up with the Smart Card database and using Facial Recognition software to automatically scan for known bongos. Most of the premies are blissfully unaware any of this is going on, and its all for m's protection anyway right? Personally I feel uncomfortable about it, and wonder what the EFF or ACLU would think of it.

I've done many gigs where I'm filming the President or the VP, and the REAL Secret Service dont go to those lengths - sure they check everybody out, but install spy cameras? never. But then we are talking protecting the Lord here, aren't we? THATs the scary part, those wanabe SS guys really do believe that and I think about what Marianne was saying about the Jonestown stuff and I'd hate to think how they would react if some misguided fool ever did make a move toward m. (think Pat Halley too)

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 04:32:12 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Black List et answer to Tonette Q.
Message:
Bazza,

I am not sure if you know anything about the new desktop satalite transsmitters. To get reception, one needs a special code. Do you know if the transsmitters accept the smart card?

Salam

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 21:04:16 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: zeroing in on a bongo
Message:
/remember Long Beach, 97?my son developed schizophrenia, all out, in his first week away at college. he was pulled out of classes and put in the university hospital.

i called his father to go pick him up, and take him home, till I could arrange something for him where i was. they lived with dad's parents and it proved to be too much for them.

he put the boy on a plane to me, after three months.

Maharaji was due to give a program here in long beach, a week later. dad said he would be coming to it, and so i took the boy with me to the long beach program. It would be the first time the three of us could be together in many years.

My son was not a premie, and was not all that familiar with the ways, because he grew up in my father's care, and not with us.

The boy was used to the exuberance and spontaneous expressions of energy, that were more typical of Grateful Dead concerts, Woodstock or Phish tours. The silence of the crowd, the muted, hushed atmosphere at long beach was too much for him.

He was also experimenting with going off his meds.
He looked perfectly premie acceptable for los angeles: sport coat, tie, nice shirt and slacks.( for role playing fun, and to rattle his dad, we slicked his hair back into a ratty, LA producer kind of ponytail, but there were plenty of others there who were wearing their hair that way, in all seriousness.)

at some point in maharaji's satsang, when he was talking about celebrating the joy of life and the energy that makes it all possible, my son let out a resounding 'Yeeeeee-Haaaaaa!' from the middle of the balcony, right by my side. the hall was startled. Maharaji didn't miss a beat. he grinned and smoothly incorporated it into his words, repeating it and shrugging, noncomittally agreeing with the unknown heckler/cheerleader,in effect endorsing the eruption of excitement, even if it was as unconventional for this group as it might be.

I expected the goon squad to descend at any minute. It never came, though. I did notice those cameras on the overhead steelwork, too. Didn't know till now exactly what they did, but i had my surmisings.

If ever there was a case for those cameras to zero in on a 'bongo' and ID them, that would have been a choice instance. I think what saved us was the fact that my son was undentifiable, not being a premie and not being a repeating attender of programs. They may have zoomed in on him, but failed to identify him as anyone they knew.

later in the evening, when we were standing outside in the dark for a smoke, one of the security fellows saw and approached us, and asked gently if he was indeed the individual who had given the unexpected cry that upset the peace. My son grinned in his best country club manners, grandly extended his hand, and affirmed that he was. The security guy tried to deferentially explain that such expressions were not usually appropriate during one of Maharaji's talks. My son explained in return that he was accustomed to more lively displays of joy, being young and being familiar with shows, and having been raised in Texas and all. He winked at the guy, and in a remark that probably left the guy somewhat haunted, candidly commented to him that 'y'all are too quiet-! When I feel joy, I wanna get up an let 'em KNOW it!'

Nothing more came of it, thankfully. Thinking about the camera setup, i chill to think what might have.And i am gladder than ever that i demanded-and got-my smartcard papers and photos back from EV, before they were processed into the actual cards. I had a gut feeling that's exactly what they were going to be used for.

Not with me, they aren't.

ps-by the way, my son came to understand and sincerely felt badly for having done that to the proceedings. he realized later how unthinking and discourteous it had been of him, and he insisted to me that he had been wrong---just as i was reaching the point of declaring my ex'ing, and wickedly congratulated him on shaking up the near-dead so well as he did.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 16:52:47 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: zeroing in on a bongo
Message:
Dear janet,

I remember watching that video when the ''YeeeeHaaaa'' came. I thought it was very funny, then my next thought was ''here come the goons,'' that guy's out of there.

When I saw M in Montreal a couple of years ago, I thought the place was like a morgue. Actually a morgue is probably more lively.

Secret cameras!!! Creepy indeed.

Best,
Cynthia


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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 01:09:33 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: great story, Janet
Message:
Thanks for the story, Janet, and I can understand why both you and Selene felt some fear when your son expressed himself during the program. You gotta love your son's reaction to the security guy, though!

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 21:48:23 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: goddamned janet I remember that
Message:
Or something like that in 97. A loud yell, I *thought* it was a
'love you M' but don't remember. It may have been your son as I don't remember anything else like that happening in those stifled days.
You know what I do remember? Being frightened for the individual that yelled it, wondering what if anything would be done.
Christ what a shitload of crap those events were. Any spontaneous outburst was unheard of and unwelcome.
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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 02:28:57 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I remember that too! How weird!
Message:
that's great that your son knows how to express himself unlike very many premies. they have to wait and be told when to speak and when not to speak. This really always has made me feel sick.

C.G. (Hi Katie!)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 19:24:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: thanks so much for that info
Message:
As soon as the Smart Cards were implemented I figured this was part of it. My thoughts are that even if premies know about all the security they will not object. Might even be proud of M for running such a together {snicker} operation.

I remember the scrutiny in the lines in 97. They stopped me and asked me if I was a premie. Talk about weird.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:40:28 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I'd like to go to an event too.
Message:
I'm curious to see how I react after dropping years of programming and seeing pudge and mala in a whole new light. It may be fascinating, like getting a closeup view of Hannibal Lechter. Or I guess it could also be boring as hell:)
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 16:28:08 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: DV
Subject: I'd like to go to an event too.
Message:
Be careful. He might not be wearing the goalie mask that day.

Steve the Silence Of The Lambs fan

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:43:03 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: DV
Subject: I'd like to go to an event too.
Message:
Hi DV -
I am guessing it would be BORING as all get-out, but I'd still like to go. I know I couldn't stand to go to one of the video K reviews though.

Have a good thanksgiving -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 18:21:17 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I can tell you about what I felt last time
Message:
I went there.

That was about 6 months or 1 year after I had decided that was not for me anymore, and didn't attend videos or anything for more than 6 months.

I felt completely foreign to what was going on. I got bored after a few minutes, but refrained from leaving because I didn't want to disturb all these guys around me, as I was seated in the middle of a row.

Then after the program was over, I stayed for a while in the lobby, saying hello to all these guys I know. I listened a bit to what some instrucors would say. They seemed so pathetic to me, and I was so glad to be out of this.

Sad and pathetic was the feeling I got. Same feeling I get when I run into premies here.

Like what Anth was saying: they have a parrokeet sitting on their head, and don't realize that: sad and pathetic sight.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 18:23:50 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: and also
Message:
exactly the same feeling you get when some disciple of I don't know which guru hands you a leaflet on the street, or some Jehovah witness starts talking to you: you feel sorry for that person.

You know what I mean ? You'd like to tell them something, and you know you can't.

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Date: Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 02:38:57 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The king is in his altogether, as naked as the day
Message:
Remember that song from the King's New Clothes. That's how it is. You should of seen him on stage in India recently. He split the audience of 90,000 into two and with his daughter who looked as equally embarrassed he sang this ridiculous Hindi phrase over and over and over again getting each side to mimic him over and over again. One side and then the other one side and then the other one side and then the other side.... like parrots. It was REALLY embarrassing to watch. I guess the parrots loved it!

Curious George, the lovable monkey.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 09:18:01 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Something to gossip about
Message:
By the way, do not worry about that cat. He is stray and he comes here because someone is trying to de-sex him. He's been on heat for a while and he shows up every now and then chasing my ass.

That said, tell me more. What equipment you installed, name, brand, cost, operation, web sites the works, pllllllllleeeeeeetttttttzzzzzzzzz.

Anything you got, I am dying to know. Save me save me.

p.s.that is my real name.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 23:41:46 (GMT)
From: aussi ji
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: solid proof at last
Message:
G,Day,to all you ex premie maties out there,I would like to thank michael dettmers for his postings.Ii posted a few months ago and asked if anyone had any hard proof about the allegations about M etc.I feel michael has privided this for me.I would love to read more from other PAM,s as well ,just to back up michael.I feel a wave coming and i get the imoression there are going to be a lot more exes after word gets around about michaels postings.I know a lot of premies who havent even heard of this site ,and others whoo wouldnt be game to look at it.
I have been around for the past 27 years and fortunately i never swallowed the lord thing,I just practised the meditation.I have come to the conclusion that M is right.What you are looking for is inside and I am enjoying the daily discovery of that.I am not about to throw the baby out with the bathwater just because there 'is something rotten in Denmark'of course this is my experience and mine alone .I have found that beautiful resting place inside and it is mine and it is not reliant on anythig or anyone else.What a relief to be able to go there and rest from all the bullshit of this world and premieland.Anyway maybe this might be of some help to some other wavering premies.I am certain there are quite a few out there at the moment
Ps can anyone tell me what happened to Johnny young here in aussiland.He was around for years and then he just disappeared?
Well i guess thats the way the kangeroo hops.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 11:28:24 (GMT)
From: solid proof
Email: None
To: aussi ji
Subject: solid proof at last
Message:
When you leave it, you leave it; you haven't left yet
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 19:56:07 (GMT)
From: aussi ji
Email: None
To: solid proof
Subject: solid proof at last
Message:
I am not sure what you mean?If you mean I havent left because I found something inside and havent left that.Yes you are right.Ii will never leave that.However if you mean I have not left a cultthen you are incorrect.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 08:59:09 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: aussi ji
Subject: The Lord thing.
Message:
Hi aussi ji

You say you've been around 27 years and never swallowed the Lord thing. I wonder if you ever lined up to kiss Maharaji's feet during that time?

Did you ever sing Arti to him?

What did you do in the 70s when we all used to sing devotional songs to him?

Anth who believed all the bullshit.

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Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 08:55:26 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It was the same for me Anth
Message:
Yeah I did a few darshans, always waiting for the magic flash, suddenly seeing him in his glory, same as when I watched his video talks, or heard him speak, but it never happened.

The only thing that really worked for me was the meditation, and what I experienced from that WAS & IS special. Thus I wasted a lot more time than I needed to.

AFTER ALL CHEMIKALS ARE CHEMIKALS, whether activated by bio-feedback techniques or not, and in my experience psychotropic realities carry a deep frisson, again of whatever variety or triggering priciples.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 19:49:28 (GMT)
From: aussi ji
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The Lord thing.
Message:
yes i did kiss his feet in my younger days .Ii guess Iii felt the need to conform to the group and yes I aaam sure deep down Iii wondered''''what if he was the lord'.However I would always come back to my deep down belief that there are ten thousand or so religions and cults in this world saying that they have the way and they believe there way is the only way.it doesnt take a genius to work out they are having themselves on.As Ii got older darshan was an excuse to look him in the eyese up close ,so I used to just walk past him and lokk at him(that freaked his minders out a bit )
did I ever sing arti to him?Hell no.That was the worst song I ever heard.I wouldve felt like a complete moron doing that.
What did I do in the seventies with devotional songs to him?christ I would go back to my hotel as fast as I could go of course.
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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 08:33:36 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: aussi ji
Subject: Waht with all the Ii and the Iii..nt
Message:
Li LI
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Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 19:16:24 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: wot are you on Salam? nt
Message:
I'm on a chair
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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 22:17:50 (GMT)
From: aussi ji
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Waht with all the Ii and the Iii..nt
Message:
Sorry mate,I am not a good typist yet,but I am sure my message got across.Iiiiiiiiii will tryyyyyy harder in the future
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 18:46:34 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: going through all the motions
Message:
Hi AJW
I can relate somewhat. I always had this feeling of going along with everything and waiting for those rare moments when I got something out of it. Gregg mentioned to me in a recent thread that a lot of what defines a group being a cult is the need to be part of the group and the pressure to conform, however subtle it may be - like isolation from anyone not involved and your whole social identity being fed by the other members.
I did this for years, never quite believing that M was anything more than anyone else. But hoping or believing that I was the one who was wrong and just too 'in my mind' to get it.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 21:23:30 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Premie revisionism
Message:
I just have to get this off my chest:

We are aware of the FAQs and the blatant revisionism of our shared history. Premies who have been steadily imbibing the 'Masters Wisdom' have been going along for the ride as well.

I HAVE LOST COUNT OF THE PREMIES WHO HAVE LAUGHED IN MY FACE WHEN I CONFESSED TO HAVING BELIEVED THAT MAHARAJI WAS THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE........COME ON, DON'T YOU REMEMBER....I WAS THERE TOO AS YOU WAVED YOUR ARMS IN THE AIR AND BHOLIE SHRIED.....WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE SAID THEN IF I HAD SAID HE WAS JUST AN ORDINARY IF SOMEWHAT DELUDED HUMAN BEING????

And whilst I'm in the mood for a little playground therapy:

There was a time a few months back when there was only one word I wanted to use in relation to the perfect hamster, and was too polite to post it on the forum, here's an acronym for it: Corpulent Unhappy Numbskull Tyrant.

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Date: Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 09:06:01 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: Cee/You/En/Tee, what's that spell,
Message:
as a Mr McDonald so aptly put it.

All feminists please take a breather for five mins please.

C'mon lotus eater, say it, you know it will do you good,

The perfect hamster, aka a certain Mr Rawat,

is a cunt,

and for those feminists still reading he's a dickhead/right prick as well.

Funny isn't it how after all those years of bogus premie niceness, how good it feels to throw the shit back towards where it belongs, oh and rejoin the human race in psycho balance.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 08:38:25 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: Premie revisionism
Message:
Corpulent Unhappy Numbskull Tyrant

is this like saying Rawat is an asshole?

Rawat you suck, yah?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 23:35:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: Premie revisionism
Message:
Hey LE
I played with a few acronyms. Complete Unbridled Nonbinding Testimony, a few others. But I gave up since I am feeling like I am off due to hiding from relatives.
The revisionism is maddening. It is a HUGE part of what made me leave, seeing it in progress. I cannot believe it didn't bother more premies.
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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 23:39:37 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Jones lost it bec. of ex-Peoples Temple members
Message:
In a thread below, Tonette asked me what event made Jim Jones 'lose it' and end up directing a mass suicide. There were many events that led up to the mass suicide, but the main reason Jones became so maniacal is due to negative publicity ex-Peoples Temple members succeeded in getting into the local press. Once the San Francisco papers and the magazine New West began taking the allegations of ex-PT members seriously, Jones descended deeper into paranoia, insanity, and drug and alcohol abuse, culminating in the exodus of over 900 people to live in the jungle compound in Guyana.

What actually happened is that a group of 8 people left PT in 1973. The mass suicide was in November, 1978. They were young people, in their early 20's. 4 were black, 4 were white. They had mid-level organizational responsibilities within the church. They became disillusioned for the following reasons:

1. Jones seemed obsessed with sex. He bragged about having sex with various women in the church in order to 'keep them loyal'. At the same time, he demanded that church members maintain celebacy.

2. There was a double standard operating in the church. Those in the inner circle, who were mostly white, went to restaurants, movies and had special privileges. The regular members, mostly poor and/or black, did without and lived frugally.

3. When a ranking member of PT began to express skepticism about Jones or PT, first Jones attempted to placate the person by giving them more privileges and exposing them to inside organizational doings -- meaning misdeeds. If that did not work, then Jones and high ranking members would begin a campaign of nasty false accusations against the nay-sayer. The errant member would be publicly accused of sexual exploitation, or some other reprehensible activity.

4. They felt that the inner staff around Jones totally violated the egalitarian standards for which PT supposedly stood. They also saw that the inner staff was constantly jockeying for position, and making baseless accusations against each other in order to score points with and get closer to Jones.

As soon as this group left PT, Jones sent a search party to find them. He became obsessed with the 8, and called them traitors. He wanted to find out anything and everything he could in order to undermine them, so that they could not undermine him first. Tim Reiterman's book 'Raven', the best book about PT and Jones, describes how Jones reacted to these defections (at 225-226):

'Over the years,each defection would strike him as if he had been physcially wounded. He would fly into terrifying rages at the slightest provocation, the slightest sign of waivering loyalty. Teeth gnashing, facial muscles ready to snap, he would unleash the most abusive, almost maniacal language against potential traitors. He would menace the potentially unfaithful....telling his follows not to dare leave him, not even to doze while he was talking. Losing even one person from the inner circle infuriated him. It was a failing, a punch to the groin.'

Jones also promoted hatred of the 8. He had PT members swear that those that had left had stolen money, committed sexual misconduct, etc. What Jones was most worried about was that those who left would go to the police or press.

In July, 1977, New West magazine did a very nasty piece on Jones. The authors called for an official investigation into the PT finances, into PT businesses and its treatment of young people in its care. At this point, Jones wielded great political power in San Francisco especially, but also in the state. Roslyn Carter, Gov. Jerry Brown, and the SF liberal political establishment all supported Jones and the seeming good works being done by the church. The bad press was written off as the sour grapes of a few malcontents.

Then the Sunday San Francisco Examiner, on August 7, 1977 (yes, the anniversary of the Pat Halley assault) put an article on the front page which raised many of the same questions, and also gave hard facts about how the internal workings of PT was totally at odds with the public image. Other negative press followed.

As the bad press snowballed, Jones began moving PT members to Jonestown in large numbers, so that they could live together 'in peace', without being harrassed. Jones went too. In May of 1978, Debbie Layton, one of Jones' inner circle, went to the American Embassy in Georgetown, Guyana, and asked for help in escaping from PT. She came back to the US and wrote a detailed affidavit which described the horrors that were occurring at Jonestown -- the suicide drills, poor food, passports seized, mail censored, work in the fields in the hot sun for long hours, torture of those who questioned Jones or who tried to escape, armed guards, etc. The publicity generated by Debbie's affidavit and also pressure from the Concerned Relatives (family members of some of those in Jonestown who worried their relatives were being held against their will) were what caused Congressman Ryan to go to Jonestown on a fact finding mission. When a handfull of PT members (about 15, I think) chose to leave with Cong. Ryan, Jones' already weak grasp on sanity broke, and he ordered the killing of Ryan and others at the airstrip from which they were leaving, and sadly the mass suicide.

Jones became obsessed with those who criticized him. He became obsessed with determining the loyalty of those close to him, and demanded that they demonstrate their loyalty constantly. One way he did this was to have the person do something illegal or personally distasteful. He pitted those close to him against each other. He drank to greater and greater excess. He would stay up all night and rant on the speakers that were posted throughout the compound, complaining about traitors and disloyalty. He tried to find out what the former PT members were doing, and plotted against them.

The moral of the story is this: How is Maharaji behaving these days? Is he myopically obsessed with those who criticize him, either in his inner circle or on this site, or elsewhere? Is he demanding bolder demonstrations of loyalty from those around him? Is he still dissatisfied after loyalty has been shown? Is he paranoid? Does he think that everyone is out to get him? Is he asking people to engage in activity designed to undermine the credibility of those who post on the forum, or who might be contemplating doing so? Is he contacting ex premies who were in his inner circle and reminding them of some supposed misdeed they committed that they would not want to become public? Has his obsession with his critics become the focus of his day and/or night, rather than anything else? Is he overly concerned with security? Most importantly, is Maharaji behaving in a manner consistent with what he preaches? That is the most telling point of all, folks. If you are around him, and he fits this description, please give some thought to departing the cult and telling him why you are leaving.

I HAVE NO INFORMATION WHATSOEVER THAT M IS BEHAVING IN ANY OF THESE WAYS. But I offer these queries so that those who are around him, or who were around him, can see the similarities in behavior. He's not perfect. He's nothing more than an alcoholic in a Perfect Master Halloween costume.

If you recognize him in this description, I hope you will have the courage to tell us by posting here so that those on the verge of reclaiming their lives will be one day closer to doing so. Your posts can make a difference.

Marianne


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Date: Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 13:23:55 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Jones lost it bec. of ex-Peoples Temple members
Message:
From:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_884000/884277.stmBodies found in Japan horror house

Japanese police have discovered the decomposing bodies of five siblings who appear to have starved themselves to death in a bizarre religious act.

The bodies were covered with maggots and flies

Police official
Their uncle Takao Wakasa, 66, and his sister Akiko, 64, the mother of the five victims, have both been detained.

Akiko told investigators her brother had ordered the family not to eat or drink in order to attain religious enlightenment.

Police found the bodies of Akiko's four daughters and her son lying side by side on futon mattresses late on Wednesday at the home they all shared in Sennan, just south of Osaka.


Takeo commanded we should neither eat nor drink to attain higher religious achievement

Sister Akiko, quoted by police
'Some of the faces were beyond recognition. The bodies were covered with maggots and flies,' a police official said.

'We immediately knew from the strong odour that somebody must be dead. The stench was unbelievable.'

Starved

Both Akiko and Takao are reported to be suffering from severe malnourishment and are now in hospital.


Akiko was quoted saying her children, aged 27 to 41, had not eaten anything between mid June and mid July when they died.

'Takao is a master. He commanded we should neither eat nor drink at all to attain higher religious achievement,' she told police.

Reports said Mr Wakasa had called himself a guru and the family had dug holes in their garden, saying they were used by God to breathe.

Police said the neighbours told them that the family placed tree branches in the holes and prayed.

They also scattered salt in front of the house every morning and stuck pieces of garlic on bamboo sticks.

Police expect Mr Wakasa and his sister will need to spend more than a week in hospital before they are fit enough to be questioned.

'If we hadn't found them, they would have been dead like the other five by the end of this month,' an officer said.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 20:35:32 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Marianne
Subject: Jones lost it bec. of ex-Peoples Temple members
Message:
Marianne

Your PT posts are very helpful because they clearly demonstrate a pattern of behavior exhibited by many cult leaders and their followers. Although I don't think that Maharaji would ever do what Jim Jones ultimately did, it is disconcerting to realizt that some of Maharaji's behavior parallels Jim Jones'.

That alone should force most people to pause and think. It may not make an impression on die-hard premies, but I'm sure it has impact on middle-of-the-road premies and people contemplating receiving knowledge who are fortunate enough to come upon this and other related sites.

Thanks,

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 10:04:23 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: The similarities are just too much
Message:
I don't foresee M following in Jones footsteps at this point in time. That's not to say that in some future arena it couldn't happen. Of course, if M pulled something, the chances are slim to none that it would be a mass suicide, I think. But he is capable of making people behave in ways that they would not normally. We've seen this happen already. Kiss my feet, give me money, don't have sex, renounce your religion, divorce your spouse, cut contact with your family, ect, ect, ect.

I can imagine several senarios that could occur where M might try 'something' ugly in order to test his power. For instance:

Maharaji gets seriously depressed
Maharaji finds out he has a terminal illness
Maharaji looses most or all of the money he's squirreled away
Maharaji faces jail time for some reason

These are far fetched musings or are they?

Look at the history of cults who have gone insane. Take that Japenese Guru for instance with his sarin gas. Jim Jones of course. Don't forget Heaven's Gate and David Koresh. These are just the ones that come to mind that were covered well in the news. That's why cults are dangerous. They may start out with seemingly benign goals but since they are dependant on a leader with no real checks or balances the potential is there for some real bad shit to come down.

Megalomaniac with delusions of divinity + devotees who have surrendered the reins of their life = an accident waiting to happen.

Thanks for starting this thread Marianne. It's definately food for thought. I'd like to say more but I am so pressed for time as I'm leaving shortly for the Eastern Shore of Virginia. I'll catch the rest no doubt in the archives when I get back. The article about the reporter Pat Haley in a thread by Jean Michael coupled with your knowledge of Jim Jones is downright spooky.

Happy Thanksgiving to All Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 06:36:24 (GMT)
From: Buzz
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Addia Da
Message:
Look at this for abuse of devotees.
www.lightmind.com/library/daismfiles/
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 02:12:05 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: another great post Marianne (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 01:40:10 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Jones lost it bec. of ex-Peoples Temple members
Message:
Do you think there is a resemblance between Tubby buying land in South America and Australia and Jones? Just kidding.

Marianne, The events you are describing happened over two decades ago. That was the age of gurus, where manipulation and praying on people ignorance was the norm. I find a repetition of the event in the same contest will be hard to duplicate, though not impossible if you consider the recent Waico(spelling) event. Remember that now we have a global media that is almost free, i.e. the Internet.

The way I look at Tubby is that he has become 'a business', a successful one for that matter. He can stop at anytime take his money and bugger of to where he came from. Loyalty to him can be the difference in how much he pays in wage.

I do appreciate your caps but, as this is a too sensitive an issue to discuss lightly.

P.s. PAMs and honchos, tell us what you think

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 01:47:39 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: You miss my point
Message:
Salam: I don't think that M is going to do the same thing as Jones. But I do think that those around M should consider any similarities between M's behavior and that of Jones, especially if M is getting more paranoid. It just shows he is not who he claims to be.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:23:39 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks, Marianne!
Message:
I agree that it is unlikely that M will do a 'Jonestown'. But M's apparent paranoia (and tell me that trying to shut down the ex-premie web sites isn't paranoid - sheesh!) could lead to some irrational behavior on his part. Actually, I believe it already HAS led to irrational behavior on his part - and I'm not talking about the attempted website shut-down.

Take care - and have a good Thanksgiving,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 02:11:39 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: You miss my point
Message:
Those that are around Tubby are as blind as a bat. Did you read Danny's post below to shp. Is not that an example where they are standing?

p.s. from a legal point view, can we be sued when defaming the name Rawat?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 02:41:20 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: M reads it all
Message:
I did not defame the name of Rawat in my post in any way, shape or form, so no lawsuit can be brought.

Even if those around M are blind as bats, perhaps one day one of these posts will reach someone. That is why I make them. I believe that what I say about the Jones/M similarities does have an impact on exes, premies, lurking fence sitters, those around M, and maybe even M himself. I firmly believe he reads all this stuff, especially where we talk about him personally. And I bet he hates to see the comparisons with Jim Jones, but he cannot stop himself from reading about them.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 16:29:10 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: M reads it all
Message:
Hi Marianne,

I agree with you--I think M reads this forum and site avidly. He's too paranoid not to. And I do believe he is paranoid. I read the EV newsletter and the ''slant'' towards giving up everything in life, total gratitude to the ''giver,'' etc. are becoming less and less subtle than in the past two years.

On the one hand he says premies have a choice whether or not to practice, yet then he fills their heads with the consequences if they do leave.

He does have isolated land in Australia--that part scares me because some older premies who still are hanging on don't want to deal with the world as it is and would prefer to be isolated for life with M in a remote place. I've heard premies say those things.

Thanks for your post, Marianne...keep them coming.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 00:38:49 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: yer scarin' me, Marianne
Message:
Seriously good post. The parallels are indeed frightening. I hope all the good people involved in this cult wake up and escape into the jungle before Maharaji starts serving up the Kool-Aid...
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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 18:37:18 (GMT)
From: Dumb Premie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: You forgot
Message:
your core of joy, maybe.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 08:35:41 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: I left it...
Message:
I left it at home Djuro- it's in a tin in the kitchen. It's not really cool to bring it into work.

Anth who used to be in a cult once

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 08:42:01 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Ouch!!!
Message:
You just reminded me of something that I did as a devotee.....but I'm too embarrassed to put it down here.

I may tell you when I next see you.

What's it like being a European?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 10:06:17 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Dangle a carrott why don't you? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 10:48:10 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Apology...I really didn't mean
Message:
to tease.

I'll tell in the near future.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 08:51:37 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: So far so good
Message:
Hi Jeth,

Well in France they fed me all sorts of creatures that we don't eat in the UK.

In Holland they gave me cigarettes that made me forget where I lived.

In Belgium they gave me beer made from fruit.

So far so good.

Anth the Cubic Centimetre (previously the square inch)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 10:52:33 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Seen or used Euros yet?(NT)
Message:
(NT)
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 15:16:02 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Seen or used Euros yet?(NT)
Message:
Hi Jeth'

I get paid in them, and I've seen pictures of the notes- but they're not in circulation yet.

Anth the threepenny bit

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 23:44:54 (GMT)
From: the dude
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You get paid in euro's!!!!!!!
Message:
Mr AJW, you know like, how can I get a job wid your ferm,
euros, mitsubishis, best e's around I reckon, you workin' for one of those wild start up net companies?
course, yor in clogland where they love da chemikals I forgot

Ain't europe great

and a big smiley to you too

the chemikal free boo-hoo at the moment dude

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 22:09:06 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: You forgot
Message:
You're becoming a real bore, Djuro. Why don't you try to interact with people here in a normal way, such as conversing. Have you lost the art of conversation? It's when you say something longer than one sentence and then the other person replies with a few sentences, bearing your first sentences in mind and then that brings forth a response from you, maybe a reminicence, perhaps relating an incident, a memory or an interesting fact - whatever.

This rather weird method you have of attempting to put forward the idea that you know something we don't or have forgotten is unproductive, to you and to other people. Unless you communicate with other people as equals, there's really no communication at all and you're just looking rather silly.

.. Dave

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 22:29:47 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir Dave, I love your new ''signature''...:))nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 23:46:40 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Sir Dave, I love your new ''signature''...:))nt
Message:
And hit's to my site have gone up since I've used it. I can't imagine why.

.. Dave

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 19:04:38 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Nope - I have it !! (nt)
Message:
I have a joy which has reasons
and no reason
I embrace my pain and my pleasure
This joy is mine and not owed to anyone
My gratitude is diminished
for it is crippling
my love is increased
for it is giving

Fuck off you slimey tw*t
Brown nosing the fat lord
on his fat throne

You are still tied to your weepy eyes
and your hollow NEED which lies

You have not the dignity to meet humanity
as your equals.

Suddenly i see... I am downwind of your stench, and my eyes are open

Smug, empty, selfish....

I would not change places with you for anything.

Gosh - that was a bit heated for an NT!!

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