Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 16:19:08 (GMT)
From: Dec 11, 2000 To: Dec 21, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


RT -:- SATsong: SOX OF REIGN -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:03:21 (GMT)
__ Gail -:- SATsong: SOX OF REIGN -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 23:21:59 (GMT)
__ __ RT -:- cute poem -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 02:09:36 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Another message to delete -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 01:33:06 (GMT)

Mr. Free -:- True Premie- Read and understand this -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:46:49 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Devil said,Bush,I will give you all this domain(nt -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 07:46:37 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- True Premie- Read and understand this -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 08:23:51 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- Mithras, Christianity, books, m. = apples, oranges -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 09:34:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- interesting post, Such, ever considered whether JC -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 20:03:11 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Well said, Hal -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:35:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- Sir Dave -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:14:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- 'Man created God in his own image' ... -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 20:32:43 (GMT)

Tim G -:- The Soap and The Stars -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:46:04 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- The Soap and The Stars -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:14:53 (GMT)

Joe -:- www.BushneverwonFlorida.com -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:47:43 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- The count goes on. -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:24:36 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- The count goes on. -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 10:01:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- The count goes on. -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 14:48:10 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- www.BushneverwonFlorida.com -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 01:13:56 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Howdy's victory speach -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 23:27:57 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- George & Jean - North America's In Trouble -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:50:26 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks Scott T., I needed that...LOL...^^^!!!nt -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:35:59 (GMT)
__ suchabanana-sorevoterman -:- Course Gore won;but Jeb Bush promised,delivered-nt -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:32:35 (GMT)

cq -:- An epitaph on the Millennial election (ot) -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:39:10 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Did I say 'bub'? I meant 'pub'. which reminds me -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:44:02 (GMT)

A True Premie -:- Stupid Ones -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:35:50 (GMT)
__ cq -:- 'threw it out the window in the most cruel manner' -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:58:54 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Enjoy the trip.............. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:18:00 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- hey boofhead -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 14:36:14 (GMT)
__ janet -:- server left out my paragraphing in next post -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:23:50 (GMT)
__ __ FA -:- server left out my paragraphing in next post -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 16:24:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- here's how -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 10:35:15 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Stupid Ones -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:20:43 (GMT)
__ janet of venice -:- oh kid, kid, kid...sigh.. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:17:31 (GMT)
__ Kjarne -:- Stupid Ones -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:00:49 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Dear True Premie, -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 01:31:46 (GMT)
__ True ex-premie -:- He got you brother: Long lives the cult! -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:12:50 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- How are you my dear ? best from me to you nt -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:23:43 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- And what can one say, but seig heil brother -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 23:19:54 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- Arms up, bolie shri satguru dev maharaj ki jai! -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:36:22 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- Stupid Ones -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:58:37 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Stupido Mundi is a premie's middle name. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:41:46 (GMT)
__ __ toby -:- i agree -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:42:25 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Stupid Ones -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:56:26 (GMT)
__ Lesley -:- eighteen and foolish -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:13:40 (GMT)
__ cq -:- you're only 18??? you sound like I did when 18 -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:06:51 (GMT)
__ Tim Matheson -:- Hi TP: We know he's not just a fat pig(NT) -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:56:07 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Yeah -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:48:37 (GMT)
__ Buzz -:- Stupid Ones -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:48:20 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Oh my God... -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:33:11 (GMT)
__ Buzz -:- Stupid Ones -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:44:04 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Rock and Roll magazine article 1973 online -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 17:20:23 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Oh, God -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:59:15 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Anyone got the Parade magazine article of 2/74? -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:18:24 (GMT)
__ __ jondon -:- Anyone got the Parade magazine article of 2/74? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 14:31:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- the Parade magazine article of 2/74? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:14:57 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Good find you have there, J-M -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:03:32 (GMT)

Scott T. -:- Reform -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 17:17:28 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Cult Friendships - Not, Cult Happiness - Not -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 17:06:43 (GMT)
__ Curious George -:- Char's brainwashed like the rest of us -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:34:36 (GMT)
__ True ex-premie -:- Cult Friendships - Not, Cult Happiness - Not -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:17:55 (GMT)
__ __ Cynathia -:- Lardush?!!.LOLOLOL..You come up with good ones! nt -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:29:14 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Charanand -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:07:11 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Charanand and friends... -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:11:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- No bells ringing cynth.... -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 08:27:10 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Charanand's address and numbers here: -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:05:05 (GMT)
__ __ N ctry club dr resident -:- Charanand -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:50:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- dat's da place. say hi! from the ex-premies -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:22:23 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Such.... -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 01:03:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- check your email -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:27:18 (GMT)

AJW -:- Jagdeo- They Knew For Years.. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 08:49:02 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- Jagdeo- They Knew For Years.. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:45:55 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- I Can See Clearly Now, The Rain Has Gone -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 06:02:11 (GMT)
__ Anth is just lying about -:- a few things...........(nt) -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:49:51 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Attention FA - Bjorn alert above... -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 09:04:19 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Hmmmmn -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 12:30:44 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Jagdeo- They Knew For Years.. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:59:12 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Phyllis -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 10:29:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Well, that is a question to ask, in-it -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:52:33 (GMT)
__ Patrick -:- What can we learn from this Jagdeo drama? -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 15:49:41 (GMT)
__ __ dv -:- What can we learn from this Jagdeo drama? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:09:21 (GMT)
__ __ Turner -:- What can we learn from this Jagdeo drama? -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:10:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Integrity and Wisdom? -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:45:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- What we learn about Turner -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 14:11:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- A Question for Turner -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:42:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Interesting thing -:- is what really happened -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:23:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- is what really happened -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:33:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- Francis or Anne Turner ??? nt -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:30:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- A couple of questions Turner. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:40:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Freedom of Information -:- What can we learn from this Abortion drama? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:39:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Are u suggesting Maharaji was not shooting blanks? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:55:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- What can we learn from this Abortion drama? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:57:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Freedom of information -:- What can we learn from this Abortion drama? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 16:43:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Anonymous information needs corroboration... -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:32:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- OK, I accept that you may be trying to protect -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:01:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ dv -:- There is a fine line between bravery, and -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:12:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Whoops! Sparks will fly, back later nt -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:22:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Back to the fJagdeo issue -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:35:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Turner: Bullshit!! Maharaji's a coward, you don't -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:28:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Turner -:- I think not -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:42:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- What Maharaji did. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 10:34:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ brian too -:- I think not -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 01:03:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Take your head out the sand brian too -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 10:40:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ brian too -:- I am not denying -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 08:05:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- I am not denying -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 10:26:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Interesting thing -:- IF MAHARAJI KNEW,...MICHAEL IS GUILTY AS WELL(NT) -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 10:52:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Wrong Bollock-Brain- It's you who is guilty. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 16:34:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Would you explain why ? (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:33:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Interesting thing -:- WHY MICHAEL IS GUILTY, IF ANTH TELLS THE TRUTH? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 12:17:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Stop shouting you asshole -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 02:12:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- fuck off Bjorn !!!!! nt -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:28:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Looks like you've never been much involved in EV -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 14:07:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Turner or whoever, I think yes -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:26:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ To Cynthia -:- Remember the innocent. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:34:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- The gall of you! FA???? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:52:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- No credibility til you identify yourself -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:53:46 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- What can we learn from this Jagdeo drama? -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:23:50 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- DLM/EV should go to the police NOW -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 16:55:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- DLM/EV should go to the police NOW -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:35:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Remember karma? To all premies: -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:03:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Since you mentioned that -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 07:36:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Since you mentioned that -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:38:43 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- remember the first sattilite feed from london? -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 16:40:55 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Anyone remebering this ? -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 08:36:58 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Anyone remebering this ? -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 15:44:26 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Anyone remebering this ? -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:06:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- Woody Allen/Jagdeo=manifestations of same dude! nt -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:24:49 (GMT)

Scott T. -:- The Supreme Hacks -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 03:54:38 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Maybe you'll enjoy this -- really excellent -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:58:37 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Maybe you'll enjoy this -- really excellent -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:27:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Scott -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:41:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Scott -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 23:01:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Scott -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 23:54:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Scott -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:49:05 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Also, Andrew Cohen -- CBS -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:16:33 (GMT)
__ cq -:- So now we know the answer ... -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:31:00 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Truly Amazing. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:25:29 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- Truly Amazing. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:50:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Truly Amazing. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:39:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Truly Amazing. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:09:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Truly Amazing. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:10:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Oh God, now I'm really depressed -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:40:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Gut the system, then gut the artists who might -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:02:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Gut the system, then gut the artists who might -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:27:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Gut the system, then gut the artists who might -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:55:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Truly Amazing. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:03:48 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Truly Amazing. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:18:26 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Sorry to say this, but... -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 17:00:05 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Don't be sorry. Get even. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:58:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Don't be sorry. Get even. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:57:59 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Marianne, take heart.. the SF Supervisor Elections -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:37:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Marianne, take heart.. the SF Supervisor Elections -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:02:26 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Scott, that first sentence................ -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 16:21:40 (GMT)
__ __ Think4yourself -:- Scott, that first sentence... // (5-4) -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:42:38 (GMT)
__ __ Think4yourself -:- Scott, that first sentence................ -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:16:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Scott, that first sentence................ -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:52:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Think4yourself -:- Scott, that first sentence................ -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 13:04:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Scott, that first sentence................ -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 17:17:46 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- The core difference -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 17:42:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Stop the hype, already -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:58:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Stop the hype, already -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:20:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Stop the hype, already -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:30:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- hype? -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:55:02 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- 'disenfranchised'? That is absurd. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 16:31:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Yes, disenfranchised. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 17:27:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Think4yourself -:- Yes, disenfranchised. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:21:26 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Will Bush be The first -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 15:40:15 (GMT)
__ __ Mickey the Historian -:- Will Bush be The first -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:30:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Will Bush be The first -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 23:10:58 (GMT)
__ Think4yourself -:- The Supreme Hacks -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 06:48:34 (GMT)
__ Ann -:- The Supreme Hacks -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 06:46:07 (GMT)
__ Rick -:- The Supreme Hacks -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 06:39:03 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Can You Imagine???? -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:12:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Can You Imagine???? -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:30:47 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Dred Scott II -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 05:25:57 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- Judicial Coup d'Etat -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 06:24:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Think4yourself -:- Judicial Coup d'Etat -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 06:36:16 (GMT)
__ Jesse Jikeson -:- The Supreme Hacks...can u believe it -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 04:12:54 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- The Supreme Hacks...can u believe it -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 04:23:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Think4yourself -:- The Supreme Hacks...can u believe it -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 06:07:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- This might work. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 09:14:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I usually do, but it's expensive. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 07:04:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Think4yourself -:- I usually do, but it's expensive. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:10:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jesse Jikeson -:- I usually do. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 07:33:59 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:03:21 (GMT)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: Everyone
Subject: SATsong: SOX OF REIGN
Message:
Gratefully Deadicated to all the Ex-premies.
What a long, strange trip – and toll .
We’ve got Tunnel VISIONS….

Sox Of Reign

Look! - ‘Out of Money’ window.
Many programs, many darshans. Any pay?
(Maybe the Lard is whining:
Funds are dwindling, it’s plane he’s falling from a heavy lie)

-Why do you want me, Guru?
To serve for you? - To see you through?
(For this is all a scheme he dreamed, in India, long ago.)

Walk out and disobey.
Feel your way, feel your way, like the day before.
Maybe you ‘mind’ direction -
From boring discourse and bankrupt premies who meet you.

What do you want with those toes -
To get sole power while you’re sleeping?!
(Then please don't be surprised when we resign: ‘Just Say Nose!’)

~ guitar riff ~

Look, listen, realize:
You’ll find Rawat needs Jet Fools for another day.
Many aspirants must call,
Through a satellite-pay-per-Guru: Master Your Home!

What do you want with his shoe -
To do for you? To see you’re screwed?!?
(It’s all a scheme he dreamed, in Malibu, long ego…)

Talk, listen to ex-devotees,
Click your way through read dreams – and it feels grand!
Maybe, you're tired and broken,
His tongue is twisted, with truths half spoken and thoughts insincere.

What did you want with his shoe?
To do for you? To seek, you’re through:
The Sox of Reign pays for the plane, and Luv, we say, WE Knew!

Sniff the Sox of Reign? A Darshan Odor.
Believe it: you don’t need it! If you don't, just boot it up.
Sat Chit Anand: mind and pain,
Think and doubt, or brainwashed, like a moth, before a flame.

So it’s: Bust the Sox of Reign! (I don't know who could it bare!)
Believe it: you don’t need it. Or leave it if you care.
It was just The Sox of Reign. For the Greed SAT in the chair.
Such a wrong, wrong crime. So be gone!
(What a *snort* time to be there!!)

+++

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 23:21:59 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: SATsong: SOX OF REIGN
Message:
Hi. Thanks for the song. I wondered where you were and how your recovery was going. Here it is--2.5 years on the LAM {life after Maharaji}. It sure is a long, strange trip and toll to get in or out of Tunnel VISIONS?. We erased ourselves and became a puppet for the Lard (cyborg is more like it). Now I'm trying to reinvent myself all over again.

Do you feel like yourself now?
__________________________________________________________

Bubble, bubble,
Toil and trouble.
Santi Ji's lies
Created rubble--

Innnocent lives
With naive trust
Lost themselves
In God lust.

But now,
Because of Ex-P.org
We do not look or
Feel like borgs.

Many know
Of his deceit.
All along
HE WAS THE CHEAT!

The ex's are
Beyond it all.
Heaven, hell--
Maharaji's gall.

Balogie's grasp
Upon our soul.' [joke]
Is gone for good
But left a hole.

Where loved ones, hopes
And dreams should beat.
We surrendered them--
To kiss his feet.

We are not
Twenty anymore.
I took too long
To learn the score.

Those wasted years
Aren't coming back!
Twenty-four
To be exact.

And, add more years
To mend the mind,
Remove his 'brain farts'
And cure the blind.

The Lord of Lords
And KING OF KINGS
Did teach me one small
But valuable thing--

Believe in belief.
It can be done
Just ask Goomeragy,
Dera Dung's son.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 02:09:36 (GMT)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: Gail
Subject: cute poem
Message:
yesh yesh yesh 2.5 years ...how I forget so much .Luckily.
I miss the socializing, do not do that anymore...may go to a yoga class or something merry. I Will be here to read...too busy to comment except to make myself laugh with song. Glad to see from you again! RT
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 01:33:06 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Another message to delete
Message:
This was posted on The Great Worldwide Linkup

Name: rocky
Location: europe
Email: rockyromilar@yahoo.de
Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 07:38:42 (PST)

My message: despite what anybody may think or feel is their reality my reality is connected to the real form of the master as prempal pointed out in his very first satsangs following hansji departure: as long as you have not realized the true form of the master you will continue seeing him outside in the form you want to see him.....

As I've stated quite clearly, The Great Worldwide Linkup is for people to contact other people. It is not a page for people to spout their beliefs about Maharaji. This forum is the best place to do that.

When people write such messages that indicate absolutely no intention or desire to contact other people, but just a desire to evangelise, then I delete these posts.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:46:49 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: True Premie- Read and understand this
Message:
For all the boo birds who hate the Bible get ready to ignore this. However it is wisdom about Satan securing man's worship. See anything in those words below that sound hmmm applicable to anyone we might know.
LUKE4 6-8 and the devil said to him I will give you all this domain and it's glory: for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. Therefore if you worship before me it shall be all yours.
2Thessalonians 2 3-4 let no one in any way decieve you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction; who opposes and exalts himnself above every so called god or object of worship so that he takes his seat in the temple of God displaying himself as being God.
2 thessalonians 2 9 that is the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all POWER and signs and false wonders.
The true GOD for lack of a better word brought all things into being. Which man even one with God has the wisdom of all things that were made? Yeah people bend spoons with mind power and create ashes like Sai Baba etc. False Wonders?
Check it out. Guru is Greater than God. Is that exalting one above God? BOW before me humbly and I will reveal Knowledge,etc. etc. etc etc
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 07:46:37 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: Devil said,Bush,I will give you all this domain(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 08:23:51 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: True Premie- Read and understand this
Message:
Sorry Mr Free,

I know you said bible boo boys ignore this but I can't . That God in the bible was a real Bastard if ever there was such a God.

A man was found gathering wood on the Sabath. Then the Lord said to Moses ' the man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.' So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Read the old testament. It's a real horror story and that God is full of hatred , jealousy , vengeance and violence. He ordered the destruction of entire communities by the sword, men women and children...... fucking disgusting stuff.

Now bear in mind that jesus says that this is the same God who is his Father in heaven. I don't want to hear anything based on that monster , tyrant God. That God is more like the devil IMO .

He apparently revels in allowing his followers to be tortured to death in his name yet claims to be all powerful. What a load of bollox !

That bible stuff can really fuck up your head Mr Free. So many nutters and serial killers have quoted it as justification for their deeds of retribution against those who they think have wronged them.

Even gentle Jesus supposedly said ' Don't suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in law against her mother in law, a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me ; anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me bla bla...
Mat 10:34

There is no God outside of ourself. There are no masters with authority over us. Masters are just egoists on earth.

Sorry had to express my opinions,
Hal

Is there anything more divisive than religion or creed or doctrine ?

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 09:34:59 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Mithras, Christianity, books, m. = apples, oranges
Message:
'Don't suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in law against her mother in law, a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me ; anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of m.

Sounds just like what happened with the Rawat siblings and premies' families! Yes, we are not worthy, Lord [m. or jc]

You like which version of the book? the Mesopotamian, Hebrew, Aramaic, Reformed, Essene, Greek - revised and interpreted, Latin (Vulgate) - edited, revised, with deletions, Orthodox -revised etc., King James I - revised etc., Lutheran, 20th century Bible -revised, reinterpreted, altered again, Mormon Moroni... In which mistranslated language, too? The translations render them different, too.

As a former college teacher who spent more than 20 years researching this subject, I can tell you that the opinions erroneously expressed in that book have been altered, mistranslated, misunderstood, deleted, appended, forged, etc. for about 2,000 years.

Ever been to a party where everyone sits in a circle, and someone makes up and whispers a sentence softly in someone's ear, then that person repeats the sentence to the next person, and so on until it gets back to the first person - who repeats the initial sentence, and how it finally ended up? Try it with about 20 people.

Now multiply such miscommunications 1000s of times: stories that were handed down and embellished for 300 years, finally codified - with the pacifism, vegetarianism, and gnosis [knowledge] meditations and discourses removed, the accounts of eyewitnesses [the apostles] removed; each New Gospel chapter originally written from stories and embellished by people who were not even there with Jesus at the time [John, Mark, Matthew, Luke, and the author of the cryptic anti-Nero book of Revelations], claims about an exclusive Son of God and divinity added [to replace the Mithraic cult which official Roman Christendom supplanted], with any and all heretics suppressed, tortured, or hideously murdered.

Believe in the living book of life, not a book written, revised, and continually reinterpreted by those seeking to establish empires, church dominion, or other temporal sovereignty over their flock of superstitious sheep - praise the Lord and pass the offertory. You been tithed yet?

People believed in the power of the book because only a small percentage (1-3%) back then could even read - the priests. The book has been used to support and justify murderous Crusades, murderous wars, murderous rebellions, genocide, slavery, male chauvinism, anti-Semitism, the divine right of kings...

Essene Rabbi Christ was a pacifist - yet his so-called followers have murdered hundreds of millions of people. Why? Because they believe in a book of words, written by men. Words can be easily twisted, changed. Statements and stories only heard once and passed along orally can be remembered incorrectly, fabricated, appended, and stripped of their original meaning before they are finally written down by others decades or generations later (like the Gospels).

Ever been in a courtroom with 2 teams of attorneys arguing? They sound like preachers debating each other - the modern Pharisees of Christendom. People who base their whole lives on interpretations of words in a book (or any scripture) are like the blind leading the blind -- into a ditch. That's what Jesus was speaking about - and look what people did!

Modern Christianity and its altered, forged Bible represent the legacy of 1700 years of murderous Xian fanaticism. Various denominations of Christians don't even get along with each other - N. Ireland, for example. In Europe, Christians massacred each other in the name of their interpretation of Jesus for hundreds of years in religious wars.

You really want to be a good Christian? Throw away the devil's gospel - the Bible. Just remember these few simple things, then, and make them a sacred practice in your daily life.

1.- Love the Lord thy God - within yourself

2.- Be Still and Know that I am (daily, sit quietly and shut up your chattering thoughts to experience the silence of your mind), because the Kingdom of God is within you [not in a book] That's what Jesus, his apostles, the Essenes, the Gnostics, and the early monks did, after all. Monks of all faiths, in fact.

3.- Know ye not, ye are ALL the Sons of God?! Love thy neighbor as thyself. So, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

4. - Don't kill or eat anything that walks, swims, flies, crawls on the face of the earth (Genesis). St. Paul said that it is wrong to eat meat.

Happy Mithrasmas - the December 25th Roman holiday of the birth of Mithras, Son of God born of a Virgin (Persian origin), replaced by Emperor-General Constantine's newly appointed and militarily enforced, Roman-crucified Son of God - Jesus. December 25th was also the mid-winter solstice of the Julian calendar. Political correctness of the day - approx. 325 CE.

If one reads the writings of a number of the pre-Roman Church fathers, they also speak of the secret mystical teachings of Jesus, transmitted personally in private to the select few, but not permitted to be written down or disclosed to the masses: e.g. 'Granted that the apostles confided to chosen disciples some teachings beyond those which found their place in the written record.' [verbatim and almost identical in the works of both Irenaeus and Tertullian]

Words, words, words... Scriptures were also used to justify and perpetuate claims of m.'s divinity and messiahship - and a little child shall lead them. coming from East to West, etc. At least the fatguru taught some meditation techniques.

All most modern Christians have is a distorted belief system based on interpretations of men's words [from the Bible]. That's why born-again ignoramuses just LOVE to argue over the words and what they think they mean! The words of men [not word of God]

You and I and everyone else are all the begotten Sons and Daughters of God! Know ye not, Mr. Free? Happy Mithrasmas!

Peace,

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 20:03:11 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: interesting post, Such, ever considered whether JC
Message:
... whether JC was not, in fact, a historical character, but an amalgamation of myths from (inter alia) Egypt?

Alvin Boyd Kuhn is fascinating on this (though a tad old-fashioned in literary style).

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:35:51 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Hal
Subject: Well said, Hal
Message:
I personally see any supposed 'authority' as being us, ourselves. Humans aren't perfect but I don't see any other authority other than what is imagined.

Not that I'm an atheist but I surmise that God doesn't judge or condemn. We ourselves are the judges.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:14:02 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir Dave
Message:
Hi ,

I've been doing a lot of reading and a lot of thinking since extricating myself from cult/ religious thinking and have decided to stick close to my own true feelings and not believe what I'm told.

What do I really know? Very little. I do know that love is most apparent between myself and my children, my parents and my friends . I won't give my love away to a GOD entity or Guru type before my family ever again.

I do believe that there is a ' higher' part of myself which is very kind and compassionate, but that's me , who I am and nothing to do with Gods or Gurus.

Man created God in his own image. A vengeful man's God is vengeful, a loving man's God is loving, a judgemental man's God is judgemental etc etc...

Hope you're well Sir Dave, Thanks for your excellent assistance in helping me to break free,

Hal

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 20:32:43 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: 'Man created God in his own image' ...
Message:
...or should that be

(this'll freak the ladies):

her image???

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:46:04 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Everyone
Subject: The Soap and The Stars
Message:
Sometimes it's hard not to step on the soap othertimes the stars land on your lap. 'I don't know' is a great blessing. Let's leave belief to the believers and cults to the cultists. The cheek of anyone believing that they hold the keys to the enjoyment of life is laughable. Fleeting and sweet and sour is this life...I don't want no Guru poisonong my stew.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:14:53 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: The Soap and The Stars
Message:
'The cheek of anyone believing that they hold the key to the enjoyment of life is laughable.'

Yes Tim, I agree. It's so sort of absurd the way premies and M constantly carry on about 'enjoying life' as if they had an exclusive contract on this activity. It's kind of snobby and subtly communicates 'I know some secret you don't know, you poor ignorant fools'. I don't see premies enjoying life any more than anyone else. All I see is when they go to see M they get 'blissed out' for awhile, but that is because they secretly believe they've just had contact with the Lord of the Universe, the Superior Power in Person. Personally, I got a better high from seeing the Dalai Lama, or even from seeing a good movie, than I ever did from M. Nope, it's all a load of phoney-baloney, whitewash nonsense, IMHO.

I have been reading a wonderful book lately called The Care of the Soul by Thomas Moore. In this he talks about how the soul grows and actually deepens when it experiences the darker things of human existence. I think to try and cut out the dark underside of life and only experience bliss and lightness is foolish and unrealistic and ultimately leads one to a more superficial existence.

'Fleeting and sweet AND sour is this life' is beautiful, Tim. Perhaps there's a song there?

Love,
Joy

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:47:43 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: www.BushneverwonFlorida.com
Message:
For those of you who are interested, there is a great website outlining 57 voting irregularities in the Presidential election in Florida that are pretty convincing, showing why Gore actually won Florida. It is not some weird conspiracy site, but the sources all appear to be respected foundations and journalists. Check it out if you are interested.

The site is: www.BushneverwonFlorida.com

Enjoy.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:24:36 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The count goes on.
Message:
Just heard that the Miami Herald is going to conduct a manual count, and is negotiating with the counties over access and cost. One county has sealed it's ballots in court, so they may have to go to court to have them 'unsealed.' Several other counties have Canvassing Board members who weren't re-elected, and want to bequeath the mess to their successors. Anyway, it'd be great to complete the count by Jan. 6th when the electoral votes are read into the record by Congress, or at least by Jan. 20th.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 10:01:38 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The count goes on.
Message:
The count of ballots during the 1876 Presidential Election took two months.

It is generally thought by Europe and also Russia that George W Bush is very bad news. Bad news for economic stability, bad news for the repair of Yugoslavia and surrounding countries, bad news for Northern Ireland, bad news for the arms race (meaning he will start it again) and bad news for the global enviroment as America continues to belch out greenhouse gases, way beyond what is acceptable.

George W Bush is in for a very tough presidency. Forget the ritual pretence of unity between R and Ds after an election. America is now deeply divided, more so I think, than during the Vietnam war. If george W Bush goes forth with his one nation, isolationist America policies, he will encounter fierce opposition which will be magnified by his shaky election result.

I just hope that the rest of America will remember that there is a world outside of America which is greatly affected by whatever America does. Maybe then, people can stop George W Bush from unbalancing the global status quo.

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 14:48:10 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: The count goes on.
Message:
David:

Unfortunately I don't think Americans even notice foreign policy unless we get into a war. The Rs are in ecstasy, of course, claiming the boom of the last eight years is the legacy of Reagan no less. But Rice is an excellent advisor, so perhaps it won't be so bad.

One thing I've noticed about Bush is that he can't look concerned without also looking like he's in pain. It's something about his eyes.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 01:13:56 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: www.BushneverwonFlorida.com
Message:
Of course it helps if your brother is the Governor of Florida and your Dad is an ex-President. Add to that, all the Republican judges, an antiquated voting system and a Florida police force and electoral institution which stops Democrats from voting and there's not much of a chance of a fair election.

Gore did lose big time though. I was amazed that he couldn't ride on Bill Clinton's popularity and the good economy. Looks like he made a complete balls-up.

For those interested, there's an election going on over at The ANYTHING GOES Forum.

There's not a chad in site.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 23:27:57 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Howdy's victory speach
Message:
My fellow Armenians,

As I stand here today looking over this magnificent viagra, I think
we can agree that the past is over. Our country is ready for a fresh,
bipolar approach. I want to bring America together. We are the hill
shining on a city, and each of us can get to the top if we set our
feet to it.

Americans have made their decision. They don't need sympathy; they
need ablutions. We need to move on beyond the petty armadilloes.
Politics doesn't have to be the way it is today. We can make the pie
higher. A high pie lets everyone put food on their family and their
family on the table. That's my record: I side with the people. And
the B-side of my record is Billy-Joe Gibbs and the Shoeshine Boys
singing 'Streets of Laredo.'

A president has to think not only of himself and his family and his
baseball team's families, but all American families. I don't believe
a president should be choosing who are the right Americans and who
are the wrong Americans. All of us together, white or wrong, black or
right. Or perversely. That's why my tax cut is as broad as we are.
And it will give our expansion a timely dose of wind.

I say there is a cost to inaction. I haven't done the acrobatics, but
it's probably around a trillion dollars. That's a good round sum to
offer to everyone, especially our seniors who are the backache of our
nation. I would like to take a moment to mention my mother, Barbara
Bush, who taught me to read and write when I was still knee-high to a
lawnmower. We need our seniors to be free to pass on their life's
work to those they love, and especially to pass on. Thanks, Mom and
Dad.

We know America is the best in the world. We are the great super-
premium; we cannot afford to be unleaded. This is still a world of
madmen and mental losses. And mental loss is easy to underestimate.
We need a sharpened sword to light our way. To quote Ronald Reagan: I
do not believe in a fate that will fall on us if we do nothing. I do
believe in a fate that will fall on us if we do something. And it
must never run our lives.

The purpose of prosperity is to make sure the American dream touches
every killing heart. Progress can be slow; you measure it in inches
and feet, not miles or kilograms. Or cantilevers. I worked in Texas
by common sense and plain dozing. I got on with small business
because I was one myself. I'm less now. But I'm also more. We are all
less and more. More or less. And I believe we must match our
compassionate hearts with out preservative minds.

I know you would rather be watching TV, and so would I, so I will
draw to a confusion. My message is: I will get things done. I will
inspire and untie. I will appeal to people's better angles. I will
prove that politics can be bigger than you ever thought possible. We
will trust the people we serve, and serve the people we trust.
Together we can do what needs to be done to preserve this great
bastard of freedom.

Thank you and God help America.

(The Economist, December 2 issue, p. 30.)

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:50:26 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: George & Jean - North America's In Trouble
Message:
Thanks, Scott. Bush'll make a perfect match with our prime minister Jean Chretien. They'll need an interpreter, though, to understand each other. The standard line in Canada is that we have a prime minister that doesn't speak either official language.

We've got to watch out for the Mexicans now. I think we might be ripe for a takeover.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:35:59 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Thanks Scott T., I needed that...LOL...^^^!!!nt
Message:
mm
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:32:35 (GMT)
From: suchabanana-sorevoterman
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Course Gore won;but Jeb Bush promised,delivered-nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:39:10 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: An epitaph on the Millennial election (ot)
Message:
Is this to be the disclaimer on all voting forms at the NEXT (so-called) United States' election:

'Any vote cast must be subject to the approval of a court of judges, the majority of whom vote Rebublican.'

.
.
.
phew, ...

way to go, America ...

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:44:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Did I say 'bub'? I meant 'pub'. which reminds me
Message:
...

'cheers, m'dears',

and down the hatch ...

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:35:50 (GMT)
From: A True Premie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Stupid Ones
Message:
I'm only 18, but I can tell you that the ex-premies who fight against Maharaji are the MOST STUPID PERSONS THAT EVER EXISTED, since they got the chance of their lives, but instead they just threw it out of the window, in the most cruel manner.
Hope you get some sympathy from him and that he forgives you,
AND
LONG LIVE MAHARAJI !!!
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:58:54 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: 'threw it out the window in the most cruel manner'
Message:
as a former ashram premie (of 'only' three years - which is peanuts compared to the length of time some wasted) - the way the Maha threw the premies out of the ashrams was a damn sight crueller than anything he's been thrown.

And if you think being an ex-premie means you no longer practice meditation - think again, premie-ji.

The difference is we don't credit Maharaji with the experiences that meditation produces. They're OUR birthright, and he has no more claim on our gratitude than does a phone directory for giving out someone's number.

What is it that you want him to be? Your Saviour?

Forget it, - he's been there, done that, ... and denied it.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:18:00 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: Enjoy the trip..............
Message:
.......wise youth.

ps you should't be mixing it with the ungrateful devils on the internet.

Mr.Rawat doesn't like it .

You wouldn't want to start out in life on the wrong foot
would you ?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 14:36:14 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: hey boofhead
Message:
Do you think we're deaf?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:23:50 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: server left out my paragraphing in next post
Message:
auuugh! i apologize. next time i'll know to use the html tags to break it up! please press on, and read it all,-- and know that it was a list, a to z, in correct form, when i proofed it!!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 16:24:10 (GMT)
From: FA
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: server left out my paragraphing in next post
Message:
How's that janet?

FA

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 10:35:15 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: here's how
Message:
WebTV users, unlike PC users are obliged to markup their documents like pure HTML. They cannot use 'ENTER' to break up lines; and blank lines made by using 'ENTER' or the space bar are removed by the 'Preview'.

You can see the sort of thing that is going on here by experimenting with the HTML code for an explicit blank. That is '& n b s p ;' (without the quotes or intervening spaces).

Do a preview on a 'reply' box containing a few such explicit HTML blanks and see what happens (the code for explicit blanks disappeares and is replaced with actual blanks in the 'reply' box. So far so good (actually bad, as the stuff typed in the reply box really ought to be returned to the user unchanged...)

Now, in the case of some operating systems, WebTV included, a string of white space in the 'Reply' box is translated by the server during the preview process into a single blank. That is, although one can lay out one's work using the 'Enter' key to break up lines and put in blank lines (as in PC systems), when the piece is bounced off the server any string of white space in the 'Reply' box is converted by the server into a single space.

At each 'preview' then, the forum software destroys one's layout, returning a solid mass of text, and the user needs to redo the formatting over! BORING!

And unnecessary, as of course, the server has no business whatsoever changing what the user sees in the 'Preview' box - that it does reflects poor design of the software (for all I know, it may be well written, but it is clearly doing something both unnecessary and unhelpful).

The simplest solution (from the User's point of view) would be for the software to render the code and text from the 'Reply' box as it does at the moment but to leave the actual code, spacing and text in the 'Reply' box unchanged.

Then even users of WebTV would be able to bounce their message off the server numerous times until it is formatted OK. The present 'design' which processes and sometimes changes the source text in the 'Reply' box between each submission effectively prevents this.

Consequently, WebTV users, unlike PC users are obliged to markup their documents like pure HTML. They cannot use 'ENTER' to break up lines; and blank lines made by that method are removed by the 'Preview.

Apologies if I have seemed to labour the point, but I have explained this before. Janet's complaint is genuine and well founded.

HOWZAT?!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:20:43 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: Stupid Ones
Message:
Hi True Premie,

If Maharaji is indeed the Perfect Master- and his 'knowledge' is indeed an experience of 'inner Truth' then we are indeed stupid.

If however he is just another of very many Indians who's in the 'Guru Business', and is no more perfect than you or I- then it's you who has been duped True Premie.

Anth- who chewed on it for 25 years than spat it out.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:17:31 (GMT)
From: janet of venice
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: oh kid, kid, kid...sigh..
Message:
lets take your posting apart and really look at it, shall we?
you say that we got the chance of our lives but we threw it out the window.i had knowledge longer than you have been alive. i gave it 28 years. i didnt leave it, it left ME.

there is a line of merchandise being sold in the VISIONS catalog this season with the logo 'EiYdHiWnDy'. it stands for 'even in your darkest hour, I will not desert you'it is A lie.

this is the first time you have posted here. there are sections of this years-long, ongoing discussion, during which we mourned premies we had known, who utterly believed in MJ and strained themselves sick with devotion--and when they cried out to MJ in their darkest hours, MJ

a) didnt know them

b) didnt hear them

c) didnt give a fuck

d) ridiculed them in front of 10,000 other devoteese)and they killed themselves in despair.

e) we have learned, firsthand, from premies who were with MJ every day, at his house, at his offices, at the hangar of his plane(s), traveled with him, that

f) MJ doesnt meditate

g) Mj is an unhappy man, all the time

h) MJ is an alcoholic

I) Mj has an uncontrollable temper

j) MJ is abusive, day in, and day out, to all those around him. those closest to him, he abuses the most.

k) MJ fucked other females in his own house in front of Marolyn, but exploded when Marolyn fucked her chauffer in return.

l) Marolyn prepared to leave him and take the children permanently

m) the children are now grown and using cocaine

n) MJ strictly forbid us to go near drugs, alcohol, sex, relationships, 'worldly pursuits', education, tv, radio, movies, politics, our own families, friends, or normal clothes.

o) meanwhile, he has been glutting himself, since he arrived in the West, and got rid of his mother at age 16, on rolls royces, maserati's, the most expensive clothes, homes, watches, cognac, dope, tobacco, airplanes, helicopters, yacht(s?), land, and the hottest babes he could get. And aviation school, to pilot his airplanes. It is the only schooling he has gotten since he dropped out of catholic school at 9th grade. Did I mention food? I guess that one is obvious to even YOU.

p) he's pathetic in bed. all his women have said so. all fat men have small penises. their bellies dwarf them.

q) he knowingly protected and employed a notorious pedophile, a confirmed child molester, AFTER children of premies revealed the grotesque acts he performed on them, under color of authority, in the guise of 'children's satsang' and 'special games'in the dark, alone. He rewarded this man, a 'mahatma'/instructor, by sending him back to india to be waited on hand and foot by willing young boys in his retirement.

r) his official organs of propaganda carefully conceal the true nature of their purpose from all investigative bureaus with which they are legally required to register themselves. they have misrepresented themselves, and him, intentionally, to the british charity commission, to the state of california, to the IRS, and most recently to the commercial public, in australia, about the conference site at Amaroo.$

s) the money goes to him. when you hear another appeal for more money, its always because he wants it for him. not for 'propagation'. for him. his pocket.his extravagance. he is unconcerned for others.

he is unconcerned for YOU.he doesn't care. not about you, not about the person next to you, not about the rest of humanity. it's a shock, but it's all true.

when his mother died, he went back to india to see her body set afire and burned at the Ganges. flying back afterwards with his brother, he was thinking, not about missing her, not grief at the loss of her--no, he turned to his brother and asked him if he thought his mother had been grateful! it's always about him, it's always for him. and to his credit, his brother lambasted him.

t) he can brook no opposition and no free speaking. he tried to have his very expensive lawyers shut down internet sites making public all of this and more, and he discovered that his power did not extend over the internet. he could not prevail over those sites. he could not shut them down: they won and stayed open. his solution to this defeat was to tell premies to stay away from the internet.!!!

u) he came to realize, through a serious episode at the residence, that no one around him was telling him the truth about things. they were telling him only what they beleived he wanted to hear. this made him realize that he was surrounded by unreality and could not trust whatever information he was being given . no one felt safe to speak truthfuly and freely to him. so a conference was arranged to help him listen to the truth as volunteered by a handful of his closest staff. it took all of day one to get everyone to loosen up and let down. but when day two opened, MJ had withdrawn and grown remote,would not participate, treated it all as a waste of his time.

v) when it became clear to michael dettmers, MJ's top financial acountant, that MJ truly no longer cared about any one or anything, including himself, michael spoke to him frankly, and told him that he could no longer do his service, because he had dedicated himself to making MJ's concerns, his concerns, and he could not effectively do this with someone who no longer cared about anyone, or anything, and so he tendered his resignation.

w) you want to save the world. you want to change the world. you're 18. you cant know what it is to be 30 or 40 or 50. you havent lived through the stunning life shocks of parenthood, death, grief, marriage, divorce, betrayal, lifealtering disease, disability, loss. YOUR ILLUSIONS ARE JUST FORMING. you still have the DISILLUSIONMENTS to live through. they lie in wait, up ahead, out of your sight now--but come, they will. THERE IS NO ESCAPING THEM. AND KNOWLEGE AND MAHARAJI WILL NOT HELP AT ALL WHEN THOSE HOURS STRIKE

x) WE ARE NOT EVIL PEOPLE. WE ARE NOT OUT TO HARM YOU. WE GENUINELY WANT FOR YOU WHAT YOU WANT FOR YOU.

Y) WE WERE ALL YOU, ONCE UPON A TIME, AND WE ___AAALLLL___WENT IN THE FRONT END OF THE PROMISED TUNNEL OF LOVE---AND NOW WE HAVE COME OUT THE FAR END OF THE RIDE, AND WE'RE OUT HERE WAVING AND WARNING YOU, TO LET YOU KNOW---

Z) IT IS ____NOTHING____ LIKE IT IS SOLD TO BE, AT THE TICKET BOX OUT FRONT.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:00:49 (GMT)
From: Kjarne
Email: None
To: The ex-premies
Subject: Stupid Ones
Message:
I think this guy is polling your leg.

Today you have to be 18 to even get knowledge, and I don`t think that Maharaji have given any knowledgesessions in the west this year.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 01:31:46 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: A True Premie
Subject: Dear True Premie,
Message:
I have read your post several times today and it really affected me. Have you read any of the Journeys section of this site? I wish that you would. My journey is posted under my true name, Marianne Bachers. I was 16 when I received knowledge, even younger than you. I hope you will read the journey of Katie Mischa too, as she was also 16 when she received knowledge, at almost the exact same time as I did, in 1972. Our stories are quite similar. The intensity of your post reminded me of the intensity of my devotion to Maharaji and his mission when I was your age. In fact, I turned 18 when I lived in the ashram.

Have you recently experienced emotional devastation in your life? Have you lost a close friend, family member, or suffered an important and unexpected emotional disappointment? Do you feel alone and misunderstood? Have you been looking for answers to your nagging spiritual questions? Are you seeking a way to make a difference in the world? These are all reasons that the people on this forum came to M, and then left him and his organization behind. These issues are far too complex and detailed to try to explain in one post. I just wish you would read some of the journeys posted on this site, and read the information about Jagdeo, and keep that in mind as you follow your path. Only you can decide what is right for your own life, but I sincerely hope that you can learn from the experiences the rest of us have had, including me, when I came to M even younger than you.

If you choose to angrily reject what I have said here, that is your perogative. But before you do that, please get some more information to assist you in evaluating the path you are choosing to follow.

And you can email me if you want.

Best of luck to you,
Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:12:50 (GMT)
From: True ex-premie
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: He got you brother: Long lives the cult!
Message:
Have you considered being wrong? Do you realize that many, many people thought for decades just as you do, but we were wrong? Nobody needs a guru to tell the common sense stuff he talks about which was known since we were young. All humans can enjoy life (everybody does it, not all the time, of course, not even the ones who want to convince themselves that they do) without a guru. Your guru himself even that he proclaims to know the experience he doesn't get it. Clarity my ass. He certainly is clear in his objective: Strippe people of their self-dignity, self-worth and self-love so they become HIS servants. He needs your money.

Of course, you are too brainwashed rightnow to see further than your nose. Enjoy slavitude masked as freedom. We ex-premies are free, at last, as is supposse to be. Is your life. Go ahead: Waste it. I wasted 25 years of my life.

Who is the stupid? Obviously you are the one enjoying 'his divine (my ass) game' and the one that is buying his lies: WE ARE FREE!!!! NO, WE ARE THE SMART ONES, WITHOUT A DOUBT, NOT YOU.

Good luck to you.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:23:43 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: True ex-premie
Subject: How are you my dear ? best from me to you nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 23:19:54 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: And what can one say, but seig heil brother
Message:
otherwise known as

'maharaj ki jai'

and what the fuck did THAT mean,

says he, as though it mattered

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:36:22 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: hamzen + True Teen Premie
Subject: Arms up, bolie shri satguru dev maharaj ki jai!
Message:
Hey, True new-kid-on-the-block Premie:

We've been there and done it all, babe.

TIPS:
So, if you want to really look like you know what you're doing in premiedom (around the oldtimers), then you can't act stupid about the now-secret (once public) rituals of worship and guru slobbery [slavery] sacraments. (EVI would probably deny these rites ever exited [existed] - the message remains the same, of course.)

In that case, you had better learn the correct traditional premie routines (which the Indian premies still do and old Western premies did every day and at programs)

Joanie Premie: Sieg: bolie shrie satguru dev maharaj ki jai! [screamed, with both arms straight up]

sieg:

sieg:

Ok, now sing the guru worship anthem: Arti [lyrics posted on this site] Oldtimers can teach you the melody. By the way, do you know how to make an arti tray with ghee? Also, do you have an altar or chair reserved just for m. in your living room? An altar with a picture is a minimum requirement, to demonstrate that you are not a closet fake-premie.

[Also, where are your Lord of the Universe posters, buttons, medallions, t-shirts, bumper stickers?]

Finally, now bow down, head to the floor, for the pledge of worship [where you surrender the reins of your entire life - and the unnecessary baggage of your bank accounts, credit cards, cash, jewelry, car, home, relationship, job, family, etc.]
-- and kiss your naive ass goodbye.

If you honestly like to meditate, go ahead.

But, if you still wish to believe blindly in the mega-rich guru and confuse your own inner experiences of old yogic techniques with him as an individual, then you really need to learn the MAHAMANTRA [search the forum archives, or for this thread: 'How can the premies justify a 6 million dollar yacht?' Yes, therein reside the real pearls of wisdom which will enlighten you (straight from m.'s own mouth).

If you wish a seat up near the front at big programs, make sure to give plenty of MONEY. [Must be at least thousands of dollars/year or estate gift, will] That is what is most appreciated. Money is like nectar to m.

[Never get creative and specify an expense on your checks, or the check may be sent back. Don't ask, don't tell.] Maybe you will even get a little snapshot of m. from EVI at the end of the year.
[If you go over to the Moonies, though, you might even get a signed photo of the True Father himself.]

Above all, never ask questions, and NEVER never leave room for doubt about m.'s now just hinted-at divinity [via double entendres, too]. For best effect, look deeply into his eyes during the videos, and you will get drowsy, you will fall under his spell, your brain is getting sleepy now, you are under his control, you are brain-dead now, you will deposit all your cash and write a very beeg check on the way out at the information table. m. will be so happy, for the moment, with his new Rolls Royce or -------- (fill in the blanks); that will be perfect for propagating his mission. He has come to save you from the MAYA [materialist illusion] of this world. But, do not follow his own example of insatiable materialist gratification. That is, of course, just a lila [means: divine play or divine game]

If you write to him, don't ever expect an answer from him directly. He doesn't know you, anyway. If you go to a Q&A session and ask him a difficult question [like where all the money is going], do not expect a straight answer.

If you have an experience within, never ascribe it to your own life energy, sincerity, concentration, or God itself. Always believe it comes right from him somehow; yes, that's perfect.

If you do all these things twice daily (morning and night), then you will become a true premie, indeed! Incidentally, premie is a Hindi word, originally meaning lover [of the truth], but now widely translated as: stupid gullible slave of the selfish guru.

Got it? These are truly the hush-hush teachings and proven tips we oldtimers know so well.

Peace,

PS Almost forgot: have you kissed his lotus feet yet? If you get the chance, make sure in advance to have an envelope full of lots of money ready to give then [darshan]. He will love spending your money, because he needs your devotion, your participation, your gratitude. See? Simple. Good luck - you will need it, eventually.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:58:37 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: Stupid Ones
Message:
Only eighteen and so wise. It must be because you practice knowledge diligently and have that understanding, but really it's just because of Maharaji's grace.

I'm 51 and I have followed Maharaji since 1972, and it is just so true that all ex-premies are stupid, but Maharaji has said he never lost a premie, and that people are only premies by his grace. Since we are nothing but pond-scum without Maharaji, it is only by his grace that people have that understanding. It is just so true that Maharaji is all-powerful, and only by his grace, by his mercy, may we even approach him, but it is also true that when it comes to people cruelly throwing that gift out the window, he has nothing to do with it, even though he is all-powerful and the only reason we can continue to follow him is by his grace. It's just so simple and beautiful.

How are you doing with sticking your tongue back down your throat. OH GOD, I JUST REVEALED A TECHNIQUE... I now have to go kill myself.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:41:46 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: Stupido Mundi is a premie's middle name.
Message:
Read everything on this site, and then kiss the real lotus feet of truth:

What superstitions about m. do you actually believe in?

You've already got that light and sounds and breath within you. Now, you don't need Prem - or his money and power scam. You can still meditate, if you want - without any cult concepts, videos, or monetary donations.

Hey, we are doing a beautiful service here, giving holy discourse of truth for you to meditate upon, lil' glasshopper. Some of us have seen it all, kiddo. Premie = fatguru slave.

As Dan Quayle once said: A mind is a terrible thing to lose.
As m. might have added: A mind is a terrible thing to have. Surrender your mind, body, relationships, money - your entire life to him, and see what happens. Who's stupid? Kid, you are so naive... Good Luck.

Peace,

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:42:25 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: true premie
Subject: i agree
Message:
try to really surrender as hard as you can,
be sincere , take him serious and if you are lucky
you will be spitt out fast and then you can continue your
live.
As so many experienced it.
Unfortunately some of those who tried it that way lost their lives.

think about it!

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:56:26 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: Stupid Ones
Message:
Grow up. Be your own person. There's no such thing as a person who's got it all figured out and can take you to the promised land. Maharaji's just leading you on. The sooner you realize that, the better.

Good luck.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:13:40 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: eighteen and foolish
Message:
God, I hope this is just a joke and you are not really an eighteen year old preparing to defend Maharaji to the death!

In 1973, when I joined the cult, I was eighteen. Now I'm 45. For goodness sake, think about what you are buying into, talk about it with some intelligent and impartial people, INFORM yourself before you join a religious cult. Why put yourself through all that?

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:06:51 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: you're only 18??? you sound like I did when 18
Message:
... which is worrying, because I thought being a premie then and be a premie NOW were meant to be poles apart?

... ah well, ... 'plus ca change', as the French say

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:56:07 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: Hi TP: We know he's not just a fat pig(NT)
Message:
asdf
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:48:37 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: Yeah
Message:
How long have you had no-lije?

What is the cruel part?

Are you saying that premies are smart?

Do you think that blubber has the power to decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?

Are you shrimp or a lobster?

Do you like Macdonald?

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:48:20 (GMT)
From: Buzz
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: Stupid Ones
Message:
Its ok,most of us here were young and gullible ourselves once.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:33:11 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Buzz
Subject: Oh my God...
Message:
...I just hope that, as happened with me, it doesn't take her 25 years to wake up to the fact that she's in a cult.

Anth - youth is wasted on the young.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:44:04 (GMT)
From: Buzz
Email: None
To: A True Premie
Subject: Stupid Ones
Message:
Lol:)
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 17:20:23 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rock and Roll magazine article 1973 online
Message:
on EPO

Guru: This matter is either very important or very silly. By Frank Rose.

It's not really unusual for individuals to declare themselves to be God. The mental hospitals are filled with such cases, along with assorted Joan of Arcs, Napoleons and Jesuses. What is unusual is for them to have six million followers.

I first heard of the 15-year-old guru when he was 13. A friend of mine was on his way to Washington Square Park to punch the kid in the nose, but it rained and nobody showed up. It was the first time I'd ever heard of God getting rained out, but I didn't worry about it.

A year after that the guru was 14. The increasingly ubiquitous posters of his fat, smiling face repulsed me at first, but gradually they began to fascinate me.

.......

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:59:15 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Oh, God
Message:
Thanks, J-M. I remember reading that article, but more than that, isn't it amazing that you can read that article and be transported right back to the way it was. That's really what it was like. Maharaji was god, we had the ultimate truth, and the world was going to be saved, while we devoted ourselves to spreading truth, feeding humanity and doing good things.

How far the Maharaji-world has fallen, from saving the world, to watered-down, unadvertized, almost sub-rosa propogation of a 'gift' that supposedly gives people a nice experience of their hearts, for which they are supposed to be forever grateful to Maharaji.

Oh, yeah, nowadays Maharaji no longer overtly claims to be God like he did back then.

What year was it that Maharaji stopped being God? For some reason Maharaji does not include that in the chronology on his website.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:18:24 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Anyone got the Parade magazine article of 2/74?
Message:
I asked for agya, and m. sent me on tour in mid-February '74, speaking at satsang programs and playing music. While I was in Jackson, Mississippi a guy showed me this Sunday Parade magazine (that comes with the newspapers nationwide) that featured our 'goom radji'.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 14:31:09 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Anyone got the Parade magazine article of 2/74?
Message:
I wrote Parade magazine and received this response:

IF YOU NEED A BACK ISSUE:

Because of the volume of requests, there is a $3.00 service and handling charge for each reprint or back issue requested. To obtain reprints and back issues, send your request, along with the prepaid service and handling charge (check or money order) to:

Reprints and Back Issues
PARADE MAGAZINE
711 Third Avenue
New York, NY 10017

IMPORTANT:
In order to find an article, we will need certain information. The best thing you could supply us with is the EXACT ISSUE DATE. If that is not possible, we will need a VERY CLOSE guess. If you are unable to supply us with a date, we will need the MAIN SUBJECT or SUBJECTS that the story might have been filed under at the time it appeared. Our records before 1988 are filed by SUBJECT only. It would also be helpful if you could supply us with the WRITER'S NAME and any FAMOUS EVENTS, FAMOUS THINGS and/or WELL KNOWN PEOPLE who appeared in the story.

Thank you again for writing.
We appreciate your interest in PARADE.

Sincerely,

Editorial Department
Parade Magazine

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:14:57 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: the Parade magazine article of 2/74?
Message:
subject: Guru Maharaj ji article

issue date: I'm pretty sure it was the 3rd or 4th week of February, 1974 (or possibly first week of March, 1974)

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:03:32 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Good find you have there, J-M
Message:
Some quotes from that article I found particularly revealing:

.
.

'Cameron began to talk about problems of communication, gently chiding the other premies for using language which was unintelligible to outsiders. He was a good speaker, and before long almost everyone in the room was listening with rapt attention. I got interested when I caught the phrase 'this isn't meant for members of the press.' It was followed closely by '. . . in November, when the earthquake destroys New York . . .'

I looked around the room. All I could see was clean faces, blissful smiles, meaningful eyes. The eyes seemed to get deeper and deeper, the smiles wider and wider, the faces brighter and brighter. I sunk back against a column, then got to my feet, retrieved my shoes and tried to leave the hall inconspicuously. Sneaking out the door, I decided to get drunk that night, really drunk...'

.
.
..................
.
.

'Rennie's tour was spectacular; I don't know if DLM considers it a success or not, but it did get a lot of people thinking about the guru and that seems to be the basic criterion. 'Rennie Unites Left-Against Him' screamed the Berkeley Barb after his initial appearance, and that seemed to sum up the situation totally. 'Kiss my lotus ass, motherfucker!' a heckler shouted. 'The Maharaj Ji eats scab lettuce!' (Boston). 'Simon Legree was a perfect master!' (New York). Paul Krassner accused Rennie of being a CIA agent (he's serious). Former Yippie Stew Albert wrote an open letter headlined 'I Never Worshipped My Dealer.' '

.
.
..................
.
.

'But Rennie is fond of saying that his angriest hecklers turn out to be his most devoted followers, and it's probably true, given the law of hysterical personalities.'

.
.
...................
.
.

'We're so high on Guru Maharaj Ji,' says Rennie, 'that sex just brings us down.'

.
.
..................
.
.

And this last quote captures the feeling that was behind the whole trip. Strong enough even to turn a jaded hack into an afficionado (if only for a moment):

.
.
..................
.
.


'Divine City, Cal. is something else. What's planned is an 'organic, modular community,' a city of light built of translucent material which will glow in the dark. Not just a plastic Jesus, folks, a whole city! A huge tract north of Santa Barbara has been donated, and unless the guru changes his mind the city should be built there within a year. It is being heralded as a dramatic vision of the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.

Dramatic, indeed. The scene that greeted Rennie in the Anderson Theater was dramatic, an army of blissful faces, a children's crusade led by a teenage pope, smiling laughing faces supposedly out to fight 'poverty, war, racism, capitalism, imperialism, sexism and hunger' and banish them from the planet forever. And howling at the smiling faces were the angered ones of those who tried the same thing in a different way, come now to taunt these people for their innocence and jeer at them for not having the correct line. When the heckling got too raucous for anything else to be heard, the devotees broke into a raga-gospel chant, an endlessly repeating song which went like this:

Open up your heart to the Universal Love,
and he will turn you on!
The Lord of the Universe has come to us this day
And he's come to show us the way back to our father.


Maybe so. But last week I heard about another guru in Japan who has 21 million followers and he's leading them up the side of Mt. Fuji sometime next year because the mountain's going to erupt and cover the Earth
with purple dye but if you jump in first...'


.
.
..................
.
.
endquote

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 17:17:28 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Reform
Message:
There are some outstanding issues about the 2000 race that ought to be settled, such as some sort of non-partisan and methodologically rigorous counting of the Florida vote that will settle as much as possible who actually won this election... if at all possible. (If we count the vote, and it's still unclear, then sobeit.) But I'd just like to offer two fairly brief benchmarks that we could use to test whether any reform proposals by the incoming administration are sincere:

1. To salvage the legitimacy of the judicial system, and to fill a growing backlog of vacancies in the courts caused by partisan stonewalling, we need to set up a non-partisan commission that makes appointments and nominations on the basis of merit. Pat Moynihan has been attempting to get this for years, and has been completely stonewalled. Time for a change.

2. Some convincing reform of the electoral process that makes voting simple, and as close to foolproof as possible. Specifically, it needs to be uniform across the country, eliminate any confusion caused by early projections of the winners and the time difference, be impervious to the kinds of perceptual mistakes that happened in Palm Beach county, and leave an unambigous paper trail for auditing the result.

If Bush doesn't propose these, thereby adopting the cause as his own, then the Democratic Party should adopt these reforms as their ongoing cause until they are again in power. Anything less is animal droppings.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 17:06:43 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Cult Friendships - Not, Cult Happiness - Not
Message:
It is bothering me that I would like to talk to Charanand and have no way of getting in touch with him.

The guru from hell seems to have worked hard to ensure that it is not easy to form friendships with people like Charanand who could answer questions and provide perspective on history going back even before the guru from hell was born. The guy probably hasn't had a fixed address for years. I've heard from a reliable source that in the eighties, Charanand wanted to settle in Vancouver and was denied this by the guru from hell.

Alienation, estrangement, dissociation, these seem more prevalent in cult members than happiness, bliss, or normality and positive influence in the world - what I thought were the original goals of the whole thing.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:34:36 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Char's brainwashed like the rest of us
Message:
Dear Steve,

I saw Char very recently and Hal, although he's a bit out of touch over there in Portugal was right on thanks to the incredibly wondrous & informative internet!

I don't have his phone number but I do have that of M himself and you could ask M's secretary for Char's number. You never know she might just give it to you if you tell her you are an old friend of his.

That was really sad that Char couldn't live in Vancouver and that he couldn't get married either. Talk about don't do as I do do as I say! Still according to Char M can do anything because he is the Lord and Char has to follow M's instructions because he's a humble disciple. Char didn't look too happy when I saw him.... who could blame him. What a stupid game to play, Char...You Guru me Disciple..... wake up at the back there!! Before it's too late. Be really true to yourself and expose the greedy pig!

Bye for now, Steve,

C.G.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:17:55 (GMT)
From: True ex-premie
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Cult Friendships - Not, Cult Happiness - Not
Message:
He lives in an apartment in Miami bought for him by one of Lardush's semi-rich professional servant. In return Tim (oops) can take rides with lardush once in a while. What an exchange!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:29:14 (GMT)
From: Cynathia
Email: None
To: True ex-premie
Subject: Lardush?!!.LOLOLOL..You come up with good ones! nt
Message:
mm
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:07:11 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Charanand
Message:
Hi Steve,

Sorry I can't help you get in touch with the old dude.

I remember him fondly but I suspect that he is blindly devoted. He is friendly with some premies I know well. He's been through a lot of turmoil in the last few years apparently. He never saw much light or experienced any great shakes in meditation but is a true back tee golf playing devotee.

He has a pretty good life. Plays tennis and golf, has no financial worries and gets treated like a great saint by all the premies.

I'm sure he's a nice enough old feller really but he sure does have a lot of investment in staying a good devotee!

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:11:42 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Charanand and friends...
Message:
Hal, would by chance, Charanand have a friend with the initials SR? Just curious.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 08:27:10 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: No bells ringing cynth....
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

Sorry don't know those initials but I am from England so maybe your referring to someone in the states?

Love Hal

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:05:05 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Charanand's address and numbers here:
Message:
Charan Anand
#1405
3625 N. Country Club Dr.
N. Miami, FL 33180

tele: 305-682-8061

fax: 305-682-8170

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:50:17 (GMT)
From: N ctry club dr resident
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Charanand
Message:
This address you have listed, it is in a city called Aventura. North Country Club Drive has some of the priciest condos in the area. There are only about 5 or 6 condos standing on North Country Club drive. The cheapest condo sells for well over 250K, the priciest condos go for 1Mill or more. I'm sure there are no premies living on North Country Club Drive, as the average age there is 55-70 and it is a very Jewish neighborhood.
The city of Aventura actually broke off from the county and became it's own city. They wanted to keep all those tax dollars in the city. Funny to think Charanand and I are shopping at the same grocery store. I'll keep an eye out for him.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:22:23 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: N ctry club dr resident
Subject: dat's da place. say hi! from the ex-premies
Message:
try the nearest golf course!

Peace,

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 01:03:44 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: suchabanana
Subject: Such....
Message:
Please email me.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:27:18 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: check your email
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 08:49:02 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jagdeo- They Knew For Years..
Message:
It’s never pleasant to be the bearer of bad news, and it’s with no pleasure whatsoever that I sit down to write this post.

When I heard that Jagdeo had seriously sexually abused an eight-year-old girl who had been at Unity School, where I had been responsible for looking after children, I felt an impotent helplessness. It’s much easier to do nothing. You can tell yourself, “It’s not my responsibility. Her father knew. It’s something I want to go away. Somebody else will deal with it.”

But it didn’t go away. It niggled, like a stone in my shoe. Sometimes it would move to the side, and I could think it was gone. But it always slipped back to irritate me. Eventually, when I wrote my “Journey”, I found an opportunity remove the stone. By “outing” Jagdeo, I was finally doing something about it, albeit very small. I had no idea what the repercussions would be, because the stone became a cat, and once it was out the bag, and no way was it going back in again. Even when the most expensive lawyers money can buy tried to put it away- they just got scratched.

Very quickly after my story appeared at Ex-premie.org, two of Jagdeos victims contacted me. Both had carried the pain of what he’d done to them through their lives, and both of them wanted justice. Two vulnerable children had grown up into intelligent women, who had the courage to throw Jagdeos crimes back in his face.

The cult’s response has been to backtrack and cover-up. When the rising pile of evidence became undeniable, their stand became, “Well if he was up to anything, we didn’t know anything about it.” My correspondence with Glen Whittaker shows that there is great concern within the cult, to emphasise that, if indeed anything did go on, Maharaji definitely knew nothing about it.

We have reports from one victim, that while she was still a devotee, she asked two officials, Judy Osborne and Randy Prouty, to tell Maharaji that Jagdeo had assaulted her. Randy reported back and told her he had indeed told Maharaji, and was told that Maharaji already knew about it, quite possibly from Judy’s report. According to the cult, both Randy and Judy, “can’t remember” either being told, or telling Maharaji.

We have a report that the father of a victim told Mahatma Gurucharanand, and asked him to tell Maharaji.

This is all history. But I’m retelling it here, because I’ve received some more information, which has a direct bearing on what has happened so far.

I was recently contacted by someone who attended many co-ordinator and instructor conferences in the 1970s and 1980s. I’ll call her Phyllis, but that’s not her real name. Phyllis told me that there were often nervous discussions between delegates at the conferences, about how Jagdeo had “got into trouble with small children”. These discussions took place between 1978 and 1985. The discussions were brief, and took place among small circles of premie co-ordinators and instructors.

Jagdeos pedophilic activities were known about, and discussed, for at least seven years.

But it looks like, after at least five years of complaints, the cult finally did something about it.

His activities were wound down between 1983 and 1985 and Jagdeo was slowly withdrawn from touring in the West. Then from 1985 onwards he was restricted to touring Indian communities in the Far East.

When the implications of this started to sink in, I felt physically ill.

Phyllis told me that Jagdeo has since been “retired” and is living with his family in a small village.

____________________

In the past, when I’ve published information about Jagdeo, the cult have tried to discredit and dilute what I’ve said in several ways. It has been rumoured that I’ve tried to sell the Jagdeo story to the press, and that I’m “using Jagdeo to get at Maharaji”. There have been suggestions that the victims have been mistaken, they’ve exaggerated, or they’ve been lying.

So, from the cult perspective I guess there are at least two possibilities. I made this story about Phyllis up myself- which would be extremely stupid of me- as it would discredit and devalue all the information that has already been published.

The second possibility is that “Phyllis” is making it up and somehow duping me. All I can say at this point, is that my instincts and common sense tell me that Phyllis is not making this up. I trust her enough to go ahead and publish her information.

Also, everything Phyllis has told me, supports and corroborates what we know already.

One way of finding out if Phyllis is making it up, is to ask some of those co-ordinators from the 70s and 80s, who discussed Jagdeo, to come forward and confirm or deny the information.

I can always ask Phyllis for a couple of names.

Anth, angry and sad.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:45:55 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Jagdeo- They Knew For Years..
Message:
I never really liked Jagdeo anyway. In fact, I don't think he really practiced knowledge or had the proper understanding. As we all know from our experience with Maharaji's own family back in the 70s, no matter what position people might be in, if they lose that understanding, they are nothing more than the maggots that devour rancid wolverine droppings.

Poor Maharaji. He has to put up with so much, despite his own heavenly perfection. He comes into this world to give people the experience of that gift, wanting nothing for himself besides the most meager basics for his bodily survival, like a delapidated house, and people around him sometimes lack understanding and do things that are less than helpful, perhaps even scattered and confused, like committing child abuse. If he weren't always experiencing divine and perfect bliss, I'm sure it would be really hard for him. Remember, he is so bodily fragile, he had an ulcer at the age of 13.

Although Maharaji is all-knowing, the Jagdeo thing, if it is true which it probably isn't, it must have just never come to his attention, in a way that is beyond our simple brains to comprehend as part of his perfect plan. Or I am sure Maharaji would have done something about it, like giving Jagdeo a good talking-to and sending him to another continent, far away from the lotus feet. That would show him, and I'm sure Jagdeo suffered greatly having to go to the Far East, where there are millions of children, but where Maharaji hardly ever gave darshan. Child molestation would have been little consolation for being deprived of kissing Maharaji's feet for months on end.

And I agree, it probably wasn't that bad. And what could Maharaji have done anyway, the poor dear? How dare you accuse him of committing criminal negligence and aiding and abbetting child abuse on the basis of just a number of eye-witness testimonies that corroborate each other. What kind of flimsy evidence is that? I don't think you can prove anything so nah, nah, nah.

And thank you Turner, for pointing out that without penetration there probably wasn't any problem anyway, except from people who just want to complain about something. There are more important things to be concerned about like the new Visions design for coffee mugs with big swans on them. They are just divine.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 06:02:11 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: I Can See Clearly Now, The Rain Has Gone
Message:
What would we do without your clarity, PP? Rancid wolverine droppings, yes, that's what we would be.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:49:51 (GMT)
From: Anth is just lying about
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: a few things...........(nt)
Message:
Which he knows himself
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 09:04:19 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Anth is just lying about
Subject: Attention FA - Bjorn alert above...
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 12:30:44 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Monkey-ji.
Subject: Hmmmmn
Message:
What exactly are the 'few things' I'm lying about then premie-ji?

And why are you hiding behind anonynimity?

You are obviously upset about the latest revelations about your master and his pal- maybe it's time to have a long think about your life- because you've ended up in a cult and it's not doing you any good. You've ended up defending a child molestor. Not a great way to pass your time.

Maybe you should get back under your meditation blanket, close your eyes and stick your thumbs in your ears. And if you can manage to keep your big mouth shut too- that will also be of benefit to you.

Then you'll see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil.

Anth who used to be a wise monkey too once.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:59:12 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Jagdeo- They Knew For Years..
Message:
Anth,

Thank you for your post. For some reason I was touched by it.

Marianne made a strong point and concluded that what has been said is true. I do not agree with that, as Jagdeo has not been proven guilty yet.

I do not doubt what your are saying is true, neither I can find a reason why Phyllis should be making this up.

Just a question though, is Phyllis still involved with EV?
Can you ask Phyllis to post here.

Take care,

Salam

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 10:29:42 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Phyllis
Message:
Hi Salam,

I'm not sure what Phyllis' involvement is with EV at the moment. She doesn't want to post on the forum but is happy to answer any questions I have for her.

Anth the piggy in the middle

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:52:33 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Well, that is a question to ask, in-it
Message:
What is her involvement at present?

Why didn't she come to you earlier?

Salam eating a piggy sandwich

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 15:49:41 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: What can we learn from this Jagdeo drama?
Message:
Anth,
I have been recently talking with my premie friends about this issue. Almost all of them seem (in varying degrees) to have had their consciences somewhat prodded by this Jagdeo issue. But, few seem willing to opine on what would have been the better or even correct way to deal with it. Of course since Maharaji is considered by them to be a sensitive, caring person they tend to assume that his response also must have been carefully and sensitively considered. There are clearly some things that suggest that this may not have been so much the case. Maharaji is clearly accused here of attempting to brush the matter under the carpet along with the 'delegates at the conferences' and 'co-ordinators' whom, according to your latest report, seem also to have been aware of the 'skeleton in the cupboard' for some years.

Some would blame these premies perhaps for not reporting the matter sooner, most people would agree, I would have thought, that Maharaji, since he was informed on the situation, should have acted promptly, openly and decisively to curb Jagdeo's abuse. Blame aside, throughout this unfolding drama, I find myself also considering what all this really tells me about Maharaji and premies.

Anyway, I met Michael Dettmer’s when he was passing through London recently and thus had the chance to talk with him directly about this and some other things that have bothered me and which I needed to 'hear from the horses mouth' as it were. Since he had strong opinions about what happened, the way it was subsequently handled and the implications of the whole issue, I don’t think he would object if I passed on here the gist of our discussion. I have to say that I found him in person, very strong in his convictions and able to put his points very clearly. I know he has already expressed himself very eloquently on this forum, but I think that some reiteration can only serve to stimulate more consideration of the broader implications of this matter.

Firstly, I asked Michael whether he thought that Jagdeo was indeed a paedophile.
He replied that he has had many conversations with Susan whose account he believed, and that as a result he considered that Jagdeo’s behaviour was clearly that of a paedophile. So then I then asked him what he thought should have happened . I found myself agreeing with his reply.

He restated what many seem to generally agree - that Jadeo should have been interviewed directly by Maharaji. He said that it was an absolute sham for Elan Vital to suggest that the appropriate person to interview Jagdeo was the ‘National Organiser of India’ (someone apparently called ‘Deepak’). He pointed out that the Instructors have a lot more fear and concern about Maharaji than they do for any organiser. They were of course, definitely originally made instructors by Maharaji and thus could only realistically be ‘retired’ by him. So Maharaji, he went on, should have taken this seriously, sat Jagdeo down, got the facts and then acted. In short he should have publicly defrocked him. This would have been the responsible reaction.

Michael was in no doubt that Maharaji should have turned Jagdeo over to suffer the legal consequences. Maharaji should have made a public statement of apology to everyone who has anything who has anything to do with him, making it clear that he was embarrassed and ashamed that such behaviour could have happened with one of his mahatmas. He should have also sought to find the victims, personally apologised to them and offered some form of restitution. That made sense to me. I agreed that this would surely be the appropriate response of someone in Maharaji’s position.

So I finally asked Michael what he thought all this tells us about Maharaji. By this time Michael had rather warmed to his theme. I don’t think I was imagining that there was some disgust in his tone when he replied that this tells us Maharaji is a coward, and that he isn’t a leader whatsoever - that he’s not interested in doing the right thing but is concerned with ‘covering his ass’. Furthermore, he reckoned - this tells us that Maharaji lives in fear and that it is questionable whether he is worthy even of respect, let alone devotion.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:09:21 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: What can we learn from this Jagdeo drama?
Message:
M couldn't admit to any wrongdoing by one of his mahatmas on that level of 'misbehavior'. He knew it would damage his perpetuated myth that he controlled everything with his unasailable spritual power, thus threatening his money base.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:10:39 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: What can we learn from this Jagdeo drama?
Message:
Look, pedophilia is a serious crime, but there are degrees of seriousness, as there are in any act of human degradation. I do not want to minimize the crime but want to get some perspective. Was there penetration? Was there battery? The most disturbing thing about Jagdeo’s alleged acts was the trust he abused while fulfilling his official role as emissary of EV/DLM - a trust vested in him by both the alleged victims and Maharaji. And although such behavior is loath-able, I do not judge him, nor do I judge Maharaji for his handling of the matter.

I know the prevalent emotion in our world today is that the rights of children supercede just about all else. And children’s rights are certainly sacrosanct to most parents – I am one myself. But perspective is an important and often non-existent commodity in our world – as exemplified by the American election fiasco. Did you see “Saving Private Ryan”? Remember the scene where the well-meaning GI tried to rescue a little girl from a bombed-out building. He took action against the wishes of his CO and as a result he was killed by a sniper, which jeopardized the mission of the whole unit, not to mention the lives of everyone else. In the movie, the captain’s prime goal was the accomplishment of the unit’s mission; and the GI’s goal was saving the girl. Unfortunately the GI’s well-meaning lack of perspective risked failure on both goals. Such is the value of perspective.

I am pissed off that Jagdeo could have had the gall to commit his acts while representing Maharaji. I am pissed off when someone abuses the trust of innocents. And believe me, I feel for anyone who was harmed by such disturbing behavior. And of course it would have been less fodder for controversy and therefore easier from a PR point of view if Maharaji had embarked on a course of action as prescribed by Dettmers. But not knowing the breadth and depth of the considerations Maharaji took into account when charting his course, neither Dettmers nor I am in a position to judge his decisions.

I personally trust Maharaji – based on 25 years of witnessing the high level of integrity and wisdom that has been his hallmark – that any considerations around this issue were thoughtfully deliberated upon when facts were known, and he took a course of action that was in the best interest of the whole. In my opinion it would be out of character for him to handle the matter any differently. And if he did make a wrong decision along the way, I also grant him the latitude to do so. Whether or not he wants to admit his mistakes to me is his choice. Trust is what it all comes down to here.

And this absurd claim that Maharaji is a coward again lacks perspective. True, he did not address this issue in a manner that was acceptable to such notable ex-honchos as Michael Dettmers, or in a manner that conforms to the current public geist. But it certainly cannot be said of Maharaji that he is a coward. This is a man who at age 13 and with no one to accompany him but one assistant took his mission around the world against all odds. He went against his mother, his culture, and just about everything a normal 13 year old looks to for validation to take his message and the mission given to him by his father to a world that was very unsupportive of his efforts. Along the way he has withstood uncountable challenges to his very existence, and he is still standing. No, this is not a coward we are talking about. An enigma yes, but no coward.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:45:16 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Turner
Subject: Integrity and Wisdom?
Message:
Your comments on the scale of Jagdeo's offences and quibbling over whether pentration occurred are repulsive Turner, and I suggest you read John T's reply below carefully.

You speak of Maharaji's 'wisdom' and 'integrity' without offering examples. We have all read a mountain of evidence from people better placed than you portraying an insecure, socially inadequate, self-centred individual who wouldn't know integrity if it leaped up and bit him on the arse.

Did you read Michael Dettmer's accound of Prem storming out of that restaurant in a jealous rage, his kids in tow, and driving home drunk, his car weaving all over the road?

The words 'reckless' and 'grossly irresponsible' come to mind.

How would you categorise such behaviour?

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 14:11:44 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: What we learn about Turner
Message:
TURNER: Look, pedophilia is a serious crime, but there are degrees of seriousness, as there are in any act of human degradation. I do not want to minimize the crime but want to get some perspective. Was there penetration? Was there battery? The most disturbing thing about Jagdeo’s alleged acts was the trust he abused while fulfilling his official role as emissary of EV/DLM - a trust vested in him by both the alleged victims and Maharaji. And although such behavior is loath-able, I do not judge him, nor do I judge Maharaji for his handling of the matter.

Turner claims The most disturbing thing about Jagdeo’s alleged acts was the trust he abused....

I would not want to quibble whether the physical acts of sex procured by Jagdeo from Rawat's devotees and their children are more disturbing than Jagdeo's abuse of postion and authority in order to get the sex. You see, we do not know how far Jagdeo has taken his perversion, and part of what we are about (and Rawat and his organisations are avoiding) is to find out what the creep actually did. That he did far more than Rawat and his minions are willing to concede is already clear.

But Turner, you cannot say The most disturbing thing about Jagdeo’s alleged acts was the trust he abused... and then talk about the physical details. Like, either the abuse of position and betrayal of innocence is the most disturbing thing or it was the acts themselves.

The impression of confusion and stinking thinking is fortified by the strange remark although such behavior is loath-able, I do not judge him... Turner would have us believe that he or she loaths, that is, feels revulsion and disgust for Jagdeo's activities (and presumably the conspirators who covered up over many years for Jagdeo) but that Turner does this in a non-judgemental way. What do you mean, Turner?

TURNER: not knowing the breadth and depth of the considerations Maharaji took into account when charting his course, neither Dettmers nor I am in a position to judge his decisions.

But no-one ever knows the breadth and depth of the considerations another uses when deciding what to do. We only know what they tell us! Unless Turner is the sort of idiot that claims never to make judgements there is a double standard here - one law for the cult and its insiders - another for the cult fodder. We all make judgements, Turner. Your judgement on the situation is that you don't know enough to make a judgement; nor does anyone else; and they are wrong to judge that Rawat and his minions are co-conspirators to years of child abuse which they knew about and chose to ignore.

TURNER: I personally trust Maharaji – based on 25 years of witnessing the high level of integrity and wisdom that has been his hallmark – that any considerations around this issue were thoughtfully deliberated upon when facts were known, and he took a course of action that was in the best interest of the whole. In my opinion it would be out of character for him to handle the matter any differently. And if he did make a wrong decision along the way, I also grant him the latitude to do so. Whether or not he wants to admit his mistakes to me is his choice. Trust is what it all comes down to here.

Whatever Rawat has displayed over the last 25 years it certainly hasn't been a high level of integrity and wisdom. That's why this website achieves more in promulgating the techniques to interested persons than does Rawat with all his millions of dollars and international organisation!

Understand Turner, that you use your personal regard for Rawat to argue that if he protected a pedophile that was preying on the children of his devotees then that is OK in perspective, understood in the context of His Mission.

In the context of your Master's Mission (to bring peace to the world, wasn't it, and feed the hungry) the child abuse was small beer, perhaps a price that had to be paid? Leaving aside your perverion of morality to excuse child abuse, the fact is that the damage is real, but Rawat's promises, used by you to excuse the abuse (or to 'put in perspective') -- those promises have not been kept, nor is there any sign Rawat takes them seriously. Indeed, there is every indication he wishes to ignore them, and pretend they were never made.

Turner excuses the Master's complicity in child abuse on the strength of the Masters lies!

Cowards lie and hide behind those they fool.

Rawat is a coward and he hides behind Turner, who is Rawat's fool.

J'accuse

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:42:18 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: A Question for Turner
Message:
Turner:

You said, 'I do not want to minimize the crime but want to get some perspective. Was there penetration?

Well, since you've mentioned you're a father, perhaps you can answer this question, and perhaps understand the point trying to be made here regarding the seriousness of Jagdeo's actions.

If Jagdeo, or anyone for that matter, molested your child, but didn't penetrate, would you not be enraged? Or would you stand up in court protecting your child's molester by offering the defense that your child wasn't penetrated, therefore the seriousness of the crime is much less harmful to your child, and therefore the molester should be dealt with accordingly? Would you seriously think that the damage done to your child was mitigated by lack of penetration?

It's okay, Little Johnny/Susie, he didn't stick his dick into you, so you're all right. How's that sound to you? Not good, I bet. But that's what you seem to be implying is the case with your specious remark about degrees of degradation.

Give it a thought.

And yes, Maharaji knew about Jagdeo, but rerouted the perv to Asia, when he should've permanently removed Jagdeo from any circulation.

Also, Bjorn, bug off, and don't think of getting involved here.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:23:05 (GMT)
From: Interesting thing
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: is what really happened
Message:
The only 'in detail evidence' from one victims that exist is that Jagdeo touched the breasts and buttocks of a 15 year old girl. That is according to her, what happened. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:33:07 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Interesting thing
Subject: is what really happened
Message:
Bjorn, if this is you, and I think it is:

That may be what happened to one 15-year old girl, but it is not what happened to others whom Jagdeo molested--much more serious transgressions occurred to them. And I know for a fact there exists another person whom Jagdeo seriously transgressed. Read Abi's journey if you'd like more 'in detail' information, which is why I think you're Bjorn. You get off on the details.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:30:28 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Francis or Anne Turner ??? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:40:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: A couple of questions Turner.
Message:
Hi Turner,

I can understand the difficulty you're having coming to terms with your master's fallibility. I hope you don't mind answering a couple of questions.

Knowing how the organisation works, do you believe Maharaji knew what Jagdeo was up to by 1985?

If he did know, why was Jagdeo sent to the Far East and allowed to continue touring, in a full time role as instructor, where he could continue abusing his power as he had done before?

Anth, looking for some answers.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:39:01 (GMT)
From: Freedom of Information
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: What can we learn from this Abortion drama?
Message:

Hmmm.

What degree of Penetration ?

Turner, what about 2 abortions in the mid Nineties
with his full time mistress, Monica Lewis ?

Do you swallow that one as caring, level headed behavior.

As he travels the world bravely spreading ...?
What ? His mistresses legs ?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:55:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Freedom of Information
Subject: Are u suggesting Maharaji was not shooting blanks?
Message:
I heard that with Monica Lewis, Maharaji refused to wear condoms, and so Monica got pregnant, twice. Was there some reason Monica didn't/couldn't use other birth control?

Another interesting piece of hypocrisy. I recall two separate premie couples in which the woman was pregnant, and in both cases they got married because they were told that Maharaji was adamantly opposed to abortion. Apparently, several people had asked Maharaji about this and he was violently against it. So, in at least on of the cases, the premies (both who had been ashram premies) got married and embarked on very short and miserable marriages that ended quite quickly.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:57:16 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Freedom of Information
Subject: What can we learn from this Abortion drama?
Message:
Where did you get this information from?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 16:43:56 (GMT)
From: Freedom of information
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: What can we learn from this Abortion drama?
Message:

From 2 people,one intimately involved.

It is true, but all I can reveal.

I am a regular poster here, but must be anon on this.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:32:42 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Freedom of information
Subject: Anonymous information needs corroboration...
Message:
Otherwise it's just a rumor.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:01:53 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Freedom of information
Subject: OK, I accept that you may be trying to protect
Message:
someone, that is probably still close to rawat, but Can you say when was it? Where did it take place?

Intimate in what way?

Anyone else knows about this?

Do you know if rawat still banging Monica?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:12:47 (GMT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: There is a fine line between bravery, and
Message:
stupidity.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:22:42 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Whoops! Sparks will fly, back later nt
Message:
You just stirred up a hornet's nest!
kelly
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:35:24 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Back to the fJagdeo issue
Message:
Turner,
Don't start with that stuff about degrees of degradation, and was there penetration? bs!. The main thing is that it was sexual ABUSE, and the worst thing about it was that it was an abuse of power. I think ,at least you recognise this, but you do not give it the full credence and weight that it deserves.
Jagdeo, in his special, honoured and respected position as a 'mahatma' had the perfect opportunity to perpetrate his perverted pleasure, he had the power, and who gave him that power? Who made him a mahatma? Make no mistake about that, it came from one place only. So who was ultimately reponsible when complaints were made?
As for your assertion that M treats any complaints responsibly and considerately..Hmmmm not according to what I've seen and heard. And you, have you read the accounts of the victims? I don't think you can have, or you would not be so insensitive.
Kelly
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:28:33 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Turner: Bullshit!! Maharaji's a coward, you don't
Message:
know what you're talking about.

Maharaji called himself the Lord, Perfect Master, Creator of Peace yet he certainly had no interest in protecting innocent children from Jagdeo. Now we know he's just a person, (and that's questionable). He did nothing he and is reponsible because at the time he had total control over Jagdeo, regardless of his age. A co-conspirator to cover up heinous crimes against children. A coward.

That you would imply that Maharaji's ''divine mission'' was more important (RE: your Saving Private Ryan analogy) than the health, safety, and well being of children is unconscionable. If you know something, it is your responsibility to talk. No excuses.

I don't want to hear it happened so long ago. Sexual abuse hurts people throughout their lives. Period. No Excuses!!!

You have no idea what sexual abuse does to children, obviously.

No Excuses!!
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:42:39 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I think not
Message:
For your information I am keenly aware of how abuse affects children - I have two close family members who are dealing with sexual abuse as we speak.

You claim he had no interest in protecting children. I disagree. He has always set very high standards of conduct for his representatives, with real consequences if they are not met. This is a case where one of these representatives stepped outside the boundary of those standards. Contrary to what you so emotionally conveyed, Maharaji has no control over anybody. If someone chooses to step outside of those boundaries, how can he prevent that. This is not a situation where he chose between allowing child abuse for the sake of his mission. It is a situation where he is called to deal with the fallout of circumstance that had already occurred.

As for your comments about the importance of a mission over the “health, safety, and well being of children”, I guess that depends on the mission. As I said, nothing he could have done could have prevented what had already occurred. It is how he has dealt with it after the fact that is the controversy for you guys. The United States military would kill 100 men and women to save one child. They then turn around and sanction countries that don’t toe their party line. And who do you think suffers most? It is the children! Every day the world makes a choice to put its missions over the well-being of children. Why? Because the world believes in its missions. I mean if they really cared about children they would never go to war.

Cynthia, you do not believe in Maharaji’s mission – he passionately does. Teach people to respect life; give a thirsty person real hope; show people the peace within that is their birthright; give people a real alternative. How many children do you think would benefit from such a mission? And besides, neither you nor anybody else have any idea what measures he did take to deal with the alleged perpetrator or “protect” the safety of others.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 10:34:01 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: What Maharaji did.
Message:
Turner,

We know exactly what Maharaji eventually did about the Jagdeo matter. He sent him off to the Far East where he could continue his digusting lifestyle- funded by the premies whose children he was abusing.

Nobody is even disputing this.

Anth trying to dispell the fudge.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 01:03:33 (GMT)
From: brian too
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: I think not
Message:
Turner, you are absolutely right on all counts, I feel very much the same as you do regarding the issue of assigning responsibility. No matter what guidelines or mandates a leader issues as policy it still comes down to the personal choice of each and every person within that structure to honor them. Back then mahatma's took vows of chasity, Even so, It is impossible to police the intentions and actions of anyone in your charge if they decide to freak out. There was a gross violation of trust that took place here and it is on Jagdeo. He alone should stand acountable for these allegations, and if guilty, his head should roll.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 10:40:10 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: brian too
Subject: Take your head out the sand brian too
Message:
brian too,

You're avoiding the issue here. Maharaji knew in 1985 (do you think there is any doubt about this?)

In full knowledge of what he was up to, Jagdeo was then sent to the Far East to continue exactly as he had been carrying on in the West.

Did you know Maharaji has known Jagdeo since he was a little boy-and Jagdeo was often described as a 'friend of the family'?

Come on, stop denying what's plain for all to see. It makes you look pathetic.

Anth

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 08:05:00 (GMT)
From: brian too
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I am not denying
Message:
what M knew or when he knew it. I am saying that it will be hard to make a case in court stick against anyone other than Jaegdeo.

I know that this same sort of child abuse has occurred within the Catholic church, there are many reported cases that have been settled already and others in litigation.

A few priests have gone down, but not the Pope, and many of the Bishops have escaped personal responsibility for the damage inflicted by child abusers who were in their charge. No harm in shaking the tree to see who falls out though.

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 10:26:31 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: brian too
Subject: I am not denying
Message:
what I'm talking about is nothing to do with court. And your post above, supportive of Turner, doesn't mention court either.

It's about the hamster knowing what Jagdeo was doing, then sending him to the Far East where he could continue without attracting the attention he had in the West.

Somthing like that.

Because if Maharaji knew, why did he send Jagdeo to the Far East where he could continue his crimes against children?

anth trying to get to the point.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 10:52:56 (GMT)
From: Interesting thing
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: IF MAHARAJI KNEW,...MICHAEL IS GUILTY AS WELL(NT)
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 16:34:12 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Interesting thing
Subject: Wrong Bollock-Brain- It's you who is guilty.
Message:
Hey Fuckface,

Stop hinting that I'm lying without stating what my lies are.

Stop trying to blame the soldiers when the buck stops with the one who gives the orders.

You really are a pathetic, anonymous creep.

By trying to protect and cover up for Jagdeo- you are actually complicit in his crimes. Why are you trying to protect him? Why are you trying to smear the people making these accusations.

Are you a pedophile yourself?

Fuck off back to your fucked-up Master.

Anth

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:33:21 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Interesting thing
Subject: Would you explain why ? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 12:17:32 (GMT)
From: Interesting thing
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: WHY MICHAEL IS GUILTY, IF ANTH TELLS THE TRUTH?
Message:
That is if 'Phyllis' tells the truth?

Read the title in this topic and Anths post.

If 'they knew for years', then you as an instructor might also be guilty in an group activity. This group (of instructors and national contacts) according to Phyllis sent a pedophile person on tour, knowing he sexually abused shildren. (So the activity to abuse children might go on????)

And dont try to tell me that if Phyllis (Anths) story is true, then Michael Dettmer did not know about it.

But has Anth lied on many occations regarding this case??????

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 02:12:37 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Interesting thing
Subject: Stop shouting you asshole
Message:
I hope you read Micheal's post above. That put a stop on you deductive logic.

You are brommie, I mean bimbo aren't you. Fuck off like everyone is telling you.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:28:09 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Interesting thing
Subject: fuck off Bjorn !!!!! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 14:07:29 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Interesting thing
Subject: Looks like you've never been much involved in EV
Message:
otherwise you'd know how information is circulated ! Specially that sort of embarrassing stuff !!

No doubt some group of coordinators knew about it, I guess we'll know sooner or later, but that doesn't mean everybody knew !!!

Usually you don't know ANYTHING outside your service field.


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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:26:39 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Turner or whoever, I think yes
Message:
Your two themes, my speaking with emotion (which, I suppose, isn't allowed in the Maharaji's cult), plus your statement ''I think not,'' both prove that you are confused and can't think or emote correctly.

As Marianne said, if you think you're so right about something, then have the courage to state your name. If you do know something about the sexual abuse by Jagdeo, then you have a moral imperative to speak out.

No excuse. Nothing you wrote above convinced me of anything. No mission is worth the life and well being of any child, or any person, for that matter. Remember the innocents.

Sincerely,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:34:46 (GMT)
From: To Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Remember the innocent.
Message:
What if Jagdeo is innocent of the accusations?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:52:33 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: To Pedophile Apologist
Subject: The gall of you! FA????
Message:
Is that you, Bjorn??? FA, please take a look at this post to see who made it.

You know what should have happened years ago, and should still happen now, Mr. Pedophile Apologist? EV should tell the authorities about the complaints made against its legal representative and ask them to sort it out. They won't though, because they are afraid of their own legal, financial responsibility for Jagdeo. If they weren't afraid, why not notify law enforcement authorities in all the countries where Jagdeo traveled as a mahatma -- just to be on the safe side?

Let the cops, in all the countries in which Jagdeo travelled, decide, after an exhaustive investigation in which all the victims have been interviewed. And let prosecutors interview the victims too. That's when this thing will get fairly sorted out.

Maybe it's not Bjorn. Is that you, Rotwat?

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:53:46 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: No credibility til you identify yourself
Message:
Your posts have no weight here, Mr. Apologist. Tell us who you are and your various functions in the cult (if any) and maybe we will listen. Until then, what you have to say is of no value to this discussion whatsoever.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:23:50 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What can we learn from this Jagdeo drama?
Message:
Everyone: that includes premies, ex-premies, PAMs and especially Maharaji

Wasn't Judy Osborne a midwife? Was she certified? Today, such a health practitioner would be bound to the laws in all states which mandate reporting child abuse, particularly child sexual abuse. Furthermore, she must be bound by ethical and moral behavior, which in my opinion, mandates a health care provider, and all of us, for that matter, to report any and all child abuse. There's not question about it.

Anth, you were not at some school, you were in a cult school. You did and continue to do everything possible to remedy this unjust situation.

AND, Maharaji, you should have immediately called the police the moment you heard of such injurious crimes! Shame on you. What kind of person are you that you would risk the lives of innocent children from the crimes of a pedophile, to protect your ''reputation.''

And to any of you honchos, and you know who you are, you must tell. That is the ONLY moral thing to do. There's no discussion about this. We're talking about child sex abuse here. No excuses!!!

EV/DLM and Maharaji must act now--they bear the same responsibility. With more and more validation and evidence, it would be wise for them to come clean now.

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 16:55:51 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Anth
Subject: DLM/EV should go to the police NOW
Message:
Wel, well, well, Anth. The plot thickens. Now we know that Jagdeo's colleagues, the other touring mahatmas and instructors, knew about his sexual abuse of minors. I cannot imagine that Jagdeo's travels could have been curtailed except from the top, and that the decision to limit his travels was done in direct response to his criminal sexual misbehavior. So this information actually supports Susan's report that she told and that M knew long ago.

What is greatly disturbing is that Jagdeo was allowed to act in any capacity at all for the organization after this information was known. I suspect that there are victims in India and the Far East from this time period.

Of course, EV's FAQ's are being shown to be more and more misleading and outright false as time passes. That misleading information was published on their website could certainly have implications for any criminal and civil litigation that may be initiated.

Lastly, M and those in DLM/EV could AND SHOULD go to the police in the places where Jagdeo traveled and advise them about Jagdeo's sexual abuse of minors and ask them to investigate. It is not too late for them to do something to right this terrible wrong committed by one of the 'Lord's' most trusted disciples. Don't hold your breath on that one.

Everything concerning Jagdeo just gets more sickening and makes the cult look so much worse the more that gets revealed. It's not just M who is a coward here either -- it's all you premies around M and those in high positions at EV reading these posts and filing them away every day. You are cowards too because you know about this and are doing nothing about it. Someday soon, one of you is going to be so bothered by your conscience, you will do something. Let's hope it's sooner rather than later.
Remember karma?

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:35:40 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: DLM/EV should go to the police NOW
Message:
'No person, knowing that a felony has been or is being committed, shall knowingly fail to report such information to law enforcement authorities.'

Isn't failing to do so called 'aiding and abetting'?
.
.
.
.
(PS, did you get my email?)

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:03:41 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Remember karma? To all premies:
Message:
To anyone in EV who is reading this:

In her letter above, Marianne said 'remember karma?' while urging you to do the right thing with respect to the Jagdeo atrocities.

Now, perhaps you are now a modern premie who has 'thrown off the hindu trappings' and no longer believe in karma (although you might secretly dream of a crown and lotus feet to kiss like in the good ole days?).

Since karma is a sanskrit word, and therefore you may feel that you are beyond such outdated concepts, let me redefine it for you. It's also known as the golden rule. It is a principle that seems to matter to human beings on a soul level that says that you should treat everyone the way you would wish to be treated. There is a vast body of research into the near-unanimous reports of people all over the world from all cultures and religions who have NDEs (near-death experiences). Surprisingly, to the researchers, one of the most prevalent themes is that when the person goes through their life review, they find themselves reliving all the events in their lives in great detail, FROM The POINT Of VIEW Of THE PEOPLE AFFECTED BY THEM. They return to their lives chastened, and determined to make amends. I was quite surprised to read this research, having also 'gone beyond' the corny idea of karma, but it seems as if this 'Golden Rule' is not just someone's concept, but a very deep principle that humans live by at the deepest levels.

So if you are in any way covering up, aiding or abetting the sex crimes of Jagdeo, whether by default, by 'not remembering' or any other 'non-method' such as secretly believing that 'your higher purpose is to protect Maharaji,' or that 'this is just those hostile ex-premies trying to stir up the shit' please think again. In my opinion, if you are following MJ in any capacity - long-distance, just as an occasional 'teacher' or just with a sentimental feeling from the past, you are participating in covering up these crimes, and THIS HURTS THE CHILDREN WHO WERE ABUSED.

Or perhaps you think the whole thing was no big deal ('hey - DOZENS of Krishna kids were sexually abused, what's the big deal?'). Sexual abuse by an older person can devastate a child's whole life. Add to this that this was a trusted older person, an emissary of God, in whom these children's parents believed and in some cases still believe, and you might be able to imagine how deep the damage goes.

Wake up, premies! This is your spiritual opportunity. Hold your master to task on this. Demand a truthful resolution. If you are truly on a spiritual path and you know these facts (and most of you do - I am an ex-premie and I clearly remember this as having been common knowledge, even before this website detailed the facts) then YOU HAVE NO CHOICE but to take responsibility for this. The reason it is able to happen and continue to be covered up is because you have given your power away to an unethical conman who doesn't have the integrity and honesty or human caring to deal with it. By telling the truth about this, to each other and to him, you can actually help the victims, including innumerable suspected other victims of the Jagdeo holocaust who are still in hell unable to tell their truth, because you continue to hold up this whole edifice of denial with your complicit support.

At one point in your life, taking knowledge was the challenge that the universe or 'life' presented. Then perhaps it was to be able to give up your ego and experience devotion. Now it is to take your power back and tell the truth. This really is a holocaust, for the lives of the children involved. It is common knowledge that pedophiles continue their crimes. Jagdeo has never been curtailed -- he is even now attended by adoring 15-year old girls! Have you ever fantasized about how you would be the Schindler person, doing the right thing in the presence of strong mind-control and apparent danger to your wellbeing? All you have to lose is the identity crutch that knowledge, Maharaji and your membership of this cult have given you. The feeling of being special. Those of us who have left can guarantee you that there is a much greater feeling of self-love available on the other side.

In love,

Disculta

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 07:36:09 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Disculta
Subject: Since you mentioned that
Message:
Since you mentioned NDEs and people's experiences, it should be pointed out that those supposedly bad things which people did in their lives and for which they felt sorry about - such things were missed out of the life review empathy experience.

Also, the positive effects of one's actions was also felt and in most cases this far outweighed any negatives.

I don't want people to think they have to be perfect.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:38:43 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Since you mentioned that
Message:
No, I don't want people to think they have to be perfect, either.

My fave book on this (because it's more scientific) is 'Lessons from the Light' by Kenneth Ring (who has written several books on the subject). Reading this I have the impression that people Do feel it ALL (good or bad). There's an example I remember of a man who actually described reliving a moment in his childhood when he purposely stomped on his aunt's plants. He 'knew' that what he was doing was 'wrong' (i.e. would hurt her feelings). In his life review, he felt what it had felt like to her, as if from inside her body. His realization was that we are all connected and need to be incredibly kind.

I was quite taken aback by all this; I am into a very kind and forgiving idea about life and people, and wouldn't want to use this stuff to guilt-trip anyone (except perhaps people supporting child-abusers). I guess my aversion at first when reading the book was to the whole idea of 'morality' ––however, there was no morality expressed, except the awareness of the effect of one's actions on other beings.

Some of the NDE books are based on one person's NDE, and written through the lens of their belief systems. But Ring's books are based on thousands of accounts, and have some interesting experimental components. For example, they made a special study of blind people's NDEs, and found that they had 'seen' the whole operating theater in correct detail, and in many cases, described the roof of the hospital etc. Fascinating stuff.

Love, the imperfect one

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 16:40:55 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: remember the first sattilite feed from london?
Message:
It was right at the time we were making the assaults on his offices about the jagdeo issue and making them respond.

Rawat got very angry on the sattelite feed speech at one point when he said something like 'stop criticising .......'
Do you remember? We were told the qoute here and viewers of the feed were jolted by it.
He was refering to criticism of someone in the org.

I was sure the anger was at us and the staffer was jagdeo.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 08:36:58 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Anyone remebering this ?
Message:
In Annie Hall Woody Allen's movie of 1977, there is a moment where the guy takes his new girlfriend (Rolling Stone's Magazine journalist) to the guru's meeting, and it shows the guru leaving the toilets ...

Was that Rawat's satsang and him on the clip?

Anyone to make a videoclip out of this?

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 15:44:26 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Anyone remebering this ?
Message:
No, but I do remember (in the same movie, I think) a shot of an anxious guy on the telephone, telling someone he forgot his mantra.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:06:07 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Anyone remebering this ?
Message:
I like the line at the end, where he is talking about relationships (but it applies to gurus). It's a little story about a guy who has an imaginary chicken. His friend tells him it's imaginary and he says, 'I know, I need the eggs.'
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:24:49 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Woody Allen/Jagdeo=manifestations of same dude! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 03:54:38 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Supreme Hacks
Message:
I've just heard the USSC decision read, and the majority opinion seems to be a very poorly reasoned and ill considered strategy to insure the election for Shrub. Basically they said that the FLSC's ruling was too extreme because it interpreted the FL Legislature's intent as designed to yield a conclusion by Dec. 12, and yet it's remedy could not be achieved by that date. Of course the only reason it couldn't be achieved in a timely way was the foot dragging of the Bush team. Faahh!

They also upheld the equal protection challenge, claiming that the non-standardized manual count was unconstitutional on equal protection grounds. The then had the gall to hold that the problem couldn't be remedied because no time was left, when they had themselves halted a process which could have funneled to a satisfactory conclusion had it run its course (with one person deciding all marginal ballots).

Although the attempt here was to end things (which it will in terms of Florida and the Presidential election) I think things are just beginning in terms of the implications of the latter equal protection ruling. One could easily conclude that any legislators who were seated as a result of such an open-ended manual count were also elected unconstitutionally. This includes legislators and office holders at state and national levels (including Cantwell?) And I think one could argue that the entire Presidential Election of 2000, or at least the race in Florida, was unconstitutional because the voting methods value the votes of some people differently than others, because the technology insures that a certain higher percentage of those votes will never be counted.

This, I think, is one of those decisions where the majority will go down in infamy, while dissenters will become part of future decisions. In other words, it's like the Dred Scott decision. I think this court will eventually be hoisted on it's own petard because of the equal protection language. I feel sick. Well, at least it was Al Gore who lost, not me.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:58:37 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Maybe you'll enjoy this -- really excellent
Message:
Scott,

I thought you might like this analysis from Eric Alterman, one of my favorite journalists. He usually writes for the Nation, but for some reason, MSNBC has been occasionally running his columns on its website and they have one today. He makes many of the same points you have been making, so I thought you'd like to read it.

Eric Alterman (December 12, 2000):

Let’s not mince words: George W. Bush, aided by a narrow conservative majority on the U.S. Supreme Court willing to invent new legal theory out of whole cloth specifically for these purposes, has stolen the 2000 election. Al Gore indisputably won the popular vote. He almost certainly would have won the tally in the Electoral College had Florida’s vote ever been subjected to a full and fair manual count as mandated by Florida law.

Bush owes his victory not to voters, but to a network of conservative hacks who managed to run out the clock on a fair count of the votes.

HOW DO WE KNOW? Just look at the lengths to which Bush, and his allies in the Florida Governor’s office, the Florida Secretary of State’s office, the Florida legislature, the U.S. House of Representatives, and now, the U.S. Supreme Court were willing to go to prevent it. The Bush forces realized they had no chances of winning a fair count, so they were forced to employ a scorched-earth policy to prevent one. Congratulations, it worked.

TARNISHED PRIZE
George Bush will become president on Jan. 20 as the most tarnished individual to take the oath of office in more than a century. He owes his victory not to the majority of the voters, but to an informal network of conservative political and legal hacks who managed to successfully run out the clock on a fair count of the votes. The degree to which the U.S. Supreme Court was willing to make itself a party to these tawdry proceedings would be shocking, were it not for all the shameless precursors that foreshadowed it. That once-hallowed institution emerges from this election a far bigger loser than any candidate who may have unsuccessfully ran for office.

STRANGE LEGAL LOGIC
Beneath their flowing robes, the majority justices are all political professionals chosen by conservative Republican presidents because they believed they could be trusted to do the ‘right’ thing.

The Orwellian implications of the court’s confused decision are almost too much to keep straight. The anti-activist court decided a presidential election entirely on its own volition. The conservative/states’ right section of the court overturned Florida election law as interpreted by that state’s Supreme Court. It did so by embarking on a new legal theory — the notion that different counting standards violate the equal protection and due process provisions of the federal Constitution — that calls into question virtually every single state’s counting methods in the future. (And moreover, if properly applied, it would overturn the entire election, as different voting methods — i.e. butterfly ballots, punch-cards, and optical scanners are certainly no less unequal than the methods used to count them.)

But here is the real beauty part. As it “remanded” the Florida Court’s decision, it did so in a fashion that was calculated to make any remedy impossible. How did it do that? By relying on exactly the same decision it had rejected, insisting that the Dec. 12 electoral deadline is somehow sacrosanct because the Florida Supreme Court had itself accepted it. And it did so by releasing its decision a bare two hours before the deadline passed, making any challenge impossible. Pure coincidence, no doubt.
In fact, the Court’s sacred Dec. 12 deadline is a fiction. As David Greenberg has repeatedly pointed out, in 1960, Hawaii arranged for its Electoral College votes to be switched when it was determined that Kennedy, not Nixon, had won a carefully audited count after the vote had already been certified. The only true deadline for getting a full count finished is the day of the actual vote, Jan. 6, when the Electoral College actually meets to choose the president.

LAYERS OF CORRUPTION
Was it relevant to the court’s decision that Clarence Thomas’ wife was already working for an outfit that is helping to handle the Bush transition?

Discovering the many layers of personal and political corruption that undergird this decision will challenge scholars for decades. Was it relevant to the court’s decision that Clarence Thomas’ wife was already working for an outfit that is helping to handle the Bush transition? What of the fact that two of Justice Scalia’s children work for law firms hired to represent George W. Bush? It is wrong to impute motives on the basis of circumstance, and so I will refrain.

But clearly these facts are relevant: Beneath their flowing robes, the majority justices are all political professionals chosen by conservative Republican presidents because they believed, rightly or wrongly, that they could be trusted to do the “right” thing in any situation that might arise.
If that means unprecedented judicial activism in the name of judicial restraint, so be it. If that means a federal overturning of a state law in the name of states’ rights, so be it. If that means inventing new legal theory in the name of past precedent, so be it. If that means relying on a case from a court whose decision it has already rejected, so be it.

In a way, the Supreme Court decision perfectly embodies the Bush campaign, from the candidate’s romancing of racist and anti-Catholic vote at Bob Jones University to his nearly successful attempt to hide crucial aspects of his background and history until the contest’s very last moments. Bush calls his political philosophy “Compassionate Conservatism.” A more accurate slogan would be “Whatever It Takes.” We better get used to it.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:27:12 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Maybe you'll enjoy this -- really excellent
Message:
Joe:

Thanks. Good article, but clearly couched to a Nation audience. Bob Woodward pointed out last night that it's a mistake to regard Bush as dumb. He's intellectually lazy, but not dumb. We've had our arguments about the application of the American Ideology (Exceptionalism), but I honestly think Republicans are too intelectually lazy to glean the nature of their own Americanism... so will consistently overshoot the mark. That is why I'm harping on it so much. I think it's the key to American politics, and the guidepost to keep a campaign from going astray. I'm torn between participating in this administration and making a lot of money, or having a lot of fun opposing it. Fun is winning out so far. Now, if I could figure out how to make money *and* have fun, I'd be all set.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:41:41 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott
Message:
Scott,

I don't think Alterman thinks Bush is dumb and he doesn't say that in the article, nor have I read that in the Nation, nor do I think so. He isn't stupid, he's just intellectually lazy, very unqualified, and basically trying to re-hash his father's administration with all the same people, including his father, most likely. And of course, those people have political agendas that I, and probably the Nation, very much disagree with, especially when it comes to the environment, civil rights, privatization of what's left of the safety net, and the unmitigated de-regulation of the corporate world, no matter how that impacts ordinary people.

How much the people around Bush in the Cheney/Powell administration will be able to do remains to be seen, but the 3,000 or so appointments to the EPA, the NLRB, the courts and the FDA will be bad enough. That's where the real damage will happen in my opinion.

But a job is a job, Scott. I don't think there is anything immoral about working for the government just because you don't think the leader is legitimate, nor is there anything wrong with making money, and it might actually be fun, too. I'm pretty pragmatic when it comes to that.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 23:01:47 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Scott
Message:
Joe:

but the 3,000 or so appointments to the EPA, the NLRB, the courts and the FDA will be bad enough. That's where the real damage will happen in my opinion.

Having worked with a number of people in executive positions in the EPA as part of my appointment at TIPP for six years it's hard to imagine that anything Bush could do would make it any worse. To be honest, those people are nitwits. Truly incompetent. Addition and subtraction is asking too much of them.

Thanks for the encouragement about work, fun and money. I appreciate it.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 23:54:44 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott
Message:
To be honest, those people are nitwits. Truly incompetent. Addition and subtraction is asking too much of them.

Well, those incompetent nitwits at the EPA have been much, much, much, more active in requiring environmental cleanups under Clinton than they ever were under Bush the Elder, and they did almost NOTHING under Reagan, except try to dismantle itself. A number of my clients have huge environmental clean up costs because the DTSC division of the EPA is on their cases. If those are nitwits, I'll take them over the Bush nitwits any day.

To tell you the truth, there are a number of my clients who would be a lot better off with a de-fanged and facile EPA. They could get away with construction projects without having to do anything to clean up the soil and groundwater. But then what kind of a world would we be living in?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:49:05 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Scott
Message:
Joe:

Just reporting my experience is all. I got along well with them, and certainly couldn't fault them for any of their intentions... but the people I dealt with just weren't very good at anything. Mostly middle level managers working on their Ph.D.s, who persistently got Ds and Fs in very lenient classes. None made it past comps. Maybe it wasn't a representative sample or something. I've also heard a lot of horror stories from friends who had ironclad commitments from the EPA on some project, only to find out the project had been unceremoniously dropped. Unreliable management practices. Now, perhaps they have some good people working on cleanup out there. I never met any of their engineers, just the managerial folks. Anyway, one gets an image of an organization and it becomes hard to shake.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:16:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott
Subject: Also, Andrew Cohen -- CBS
Message:
Here is the last two paragraphs of Andrew Cohen's 'Court Watch' Report for CBS on the failure of the Supreme Court:

I'll leave it to the political analysts to predict how this ruling will affect the vice president now and in the future. But I will take a stab at predicting how this ruling will affect the Court's reputation and the nature of the judiciary in general. It won't help. Instead of speaking in one clear voice, instead of demanding some level of consensus and compromise, instead of coming together, the Court stayed apart. In the end, then, people will remember this ruling as one in which the Justices failed to take advantage of a unique opportunity to put their collective genius together and offer America a solution it could have and would have embraced.

They will remember this ruling as one which ratified dubious decisions made by an overtly partisan secretary of state. They will remember this ruling as one which left on the table - literally and figuratively - thousands of ballots which never were reviewed by human hands and eyes. Perhaps most importantly, they likely will look upon this decision as one which cemented in place the dismal notion that we are a nation of laws, but that the men and women in charge determine what the law is.

As dissenting Justice John Paul Stevens wrote Tuesday night: 'Time will one day heal the wound to that confidence that will be inflicted by today's decision. One thing, however, is certain. Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year's Presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the Nation's confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law.'

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:31:00 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: So now we know the answer ...
Message:

... to the burning question of 'how many votes make five?'

The answer appears to be:


'IT DEPENDS WHO THE JUDGES VOTE FOR'

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:25:29 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Truly Amazing.
Message:
I read that decision last night on line, the mess that it is, and it is crystal clear that the five justices wanted the result of stoping the recounts and having their guy win as president, and only later tried to cobble together a reason for doing so. So blantantly partisan, so blatantly promoting their own self-interest. But I concur with Marianne, that I also am afraid I have to say, 'I told you so.' Small consolation though.

The big surprise is the Equal Protection argument getting some credence, but it was only because it was necessary to get the two additional justices (O'Connor and Kennedy) to sign onto the majority with the 3 beyond-the-pale neanderthals of Rehnquist, Scalia and 'how-many-times-can-I-kiss-Scalia's-ass' Thomas. Funny that there ended up being only 3 justices that said the Florida Supreme Court made new law. At least the Florida Supremes can take some solace in that. Those four justices in Tallahassee are heroes to me, at least. I plan on sending them a letter saying so.

It is so ironic, that this group of five Supreme Court justices who, in decision after decision in the past 15 years, have been routinely shreading the civil right's decisions of the 60s Warren Court, to use those very same decisions to support their equal protection argument for Bush. It gives new meaning to the words 'hypocrisy' and 'chutzpa.' Do you think for one second that this group would entertain the claims of African Americans that they are denied equal protection in the right to vote, since they tend to live in districts with the worst voting equipment and are most likely to have their votes undercounted, as they also live with the worst parks and schools? Of course not. But when a rich, white guy like Bush makes the same argument, they are willing to determine the Presidency by falling all over themselves to make that same argument.

I agree with you that the decision may have a silver lining of opening up claims for voting rights under equal protection arguments, but the decision also, equally cynically, said the decision only applied to THIS particular case. Moreover, those five justices remain a wall against promoting civil rights for anyone but the coservative majority, despite having, through shear desperation, to actually appear to promote a civil right in order to help their guy, George Bush, get elected. It is a true disgrace, and I agree with you, it makes me sick.

Hail to the Thief.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:50:57 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Truly Amazing.
Message:
I loved John Paul Stevens' comment about 'we'll never know who the real winner is, but we know who the real losers are: the American public....'

Wasn't it a bit of a Catch-22 where they stayed the hand count, and then argued that there wasn't enough time to recount? I'm probably missing some subtlety there, but nonetheless, I'm appalled. Like Rick, Bush repulses me, and it seems like the only way to be able to deal with Bush being president is to view it as some sort of sick entertainment. Oy vey.

I learned very early on that justice is not found in the courts, so I don't know why I'm surprised.

Also, I was listening to a program about the possibility of Clinton providing clemency to Peltier, and some one on the program made the point that Bush could void Clinton's executive order(s). Is that true?

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:39:10 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Truly Amazing.
Message:
Hi Monmot:

Sorry I haven't responded to your email, but things have been so busy.

Wasn't it a bit of a Catch-22 where they stayed the hand count, and then argued that there wasn't enough time to recount?

Right. Actually, I think both Breyer and Ginsburg said as much in their dissents. By the way, did you catch that while Souter, Breyer and even Stevens said that they 'respectively' dissent, Ginsburg left 'respectfully' off the closing of her dissent. In the Supremes' world that is a very big deal. She was obviously very pissed.

Also, I was very impressed with Breyer's historical analysis of the commission set up to decide the election of 1876 that he discussed in his dissent. It would be nice if maybe the justices were a little more attuned to history.

Bush as sick entertainment. Maybe in a few months. Right now it's just too nauseating. Actually, I tried to use the sick entertainment device to get through Reagan, but that didn't work too well.

You know, I wonder. I have heard Bush compared to Reagan, in that he is completely NOT 'hands-on', just delegates everything and isn't very smart. In that sense he is the antithesis of Clinton, and maybe like Reagan.

But for all the dislike I have for Reagan, at least Reagan had a political ideology that was coherent, if very misguided. Bush doesn't. Also, I've read that in order to do the 'hands-off' kind of presidency, you have to be a popular leader and a good communicator, like Reagan undeniably was, at least to a lot of people. No one has suggested that Bush can even coherently put two sentences together, let alone have a coherent ideology.

And of course, there was never any dispute that Reagan actually did win the election, unlike Bush. God, it is just so embarrassing to the rest of the world to have a dolt like Bush as our President. We will all have to go around with bags over our heads for the next 4 years. It's a national joke.

Maybe people will get organized about his, however, and this is the more depressing point, I think we should never, ever underestimate the short term memory loss of the American people. Once this thing is settled, it's back to the shopping malls, and that's it, most likely.

As an example, look at the impeachment issue. That was such a big, big deal for at least a year, and yet it wasn't even MENTIONED in this past election; Not by the candidates, not by journalists. It was just ancient history and yet it had happened so recently and was such a big deal. This whole election dispute may just go the same way, I am afraid.

But, there is one thing that could happen to change that, although I don't think it will. And that is, Gore, instead of 'conceding' tonight could say something like: 'I didn't really lose the election, but the way the system works I am not going to be President, and we should all acknowledge Bush, blah, blah, and come together, blah, blah. And then, he should say, however, since more Americans voted for me than for Bush, and since they put their faith in me and not Bush, I owe it to them to remain active, as head of the Democratic party, to watch every move Bush makes, to comment on everything he does, to be a sort of shadow presidence, and to stay active in the organized opposition as a leader of the opposition.' Kind of like the way things happen in parliamentary systems. Something like that.

He will get pressure from his own party not to do that, but that would be a good think to do, IMHO. He would especially get pressure from those who already were making noises about him conceding, like John Kerry of Mass. and Torecelli of NJ, both of whom are chomping at the bit to get Gore out of the way, and run for the Democratic nomination.

Anyway, just my ramblings. How are things where you are?

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:09:51 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Truly Amazing.
Message:
Joe:

It was just ancient history and yet it had happened so recently and was such a big deal. This whole election dispute may just go the same way, I am afraid.

Link it to the American Ideology as a convincingly graphic metaphor and it won't go away.

I agree with what you're saying about the shadow presidency, and the role Gore could play, although he need not be that explicit about his role. He can be explicit about the *cause* and leave his own role as implied. If he doesn't take up that gauntlet then we are well rid of him, because someone else *will*. It *could* even be Hillary Clinton. If Pat Moynihan has been talking to her about judicial reform, then the first thing she should do in the Senate is *loudly* propose a Moynihan-ish judicial reform bill. Let the Republicans oppose her, if they like, and set the stage for 2002. Man am I *full* of ideas... Bush has given us a veritable treasure trove.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:10:34 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Truly Amazing.
Message:
Things being what they are here, it's just more of 'how do I look today' or 'Did Michael Douglas have a lift?' :)) Just being cynical, but that's understandable given the travesty that has just occurred. I agree with you about Gore, and although I know Gore's not so squeaky clean, at least he's intelligent, and that he should dog Bush big time.

As for Kerry running for President, his past might come back to haunt him. My mother used to work in the Cambridge courthouse where Kerry worked for many years, and she told me that he had quite a few sexual harassment complaints filed against him, and that his reputation (or lack thereof) was quite well known around the courthouse. That would surely bite him in the ass if he decides to shoot for the Dem nomination.

Although it'll be a cold day in hell if this ever happens, I would love to see some independent journalism done by the dissenting justices, but there's probably some written, or unwritten, rule about bitching in public after the fact about decisions. I'm appalled also, and I don't think the 'Bush as entertainment' scenario would work for me. I do think it was a judicial coup d'etat, plain and simple. They had an agenda, and like you say, crafted their argument to fit their agenda. Plus, Scalia's son works in the same law office/firm (Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher) as Bush's counsel, Olson, who appeared before the Supremes. Wha's up wi' dat?

I'm also concerned that Cheney's wife, who single-handedly gutted the NEA, will finish off the job after hubby dearest is in office. I think she was running the NEA when the 'NEA 4' went to court because of objectionable content in their art work.

My brother left work early to go home and write letters to everyone he can think of. He's an old-fashioned crank and writes letters to vent his spleen. He lives in Palm Beach county, and he thinks Jeb Bush has just committed political suicide. I certainly hope so. And as Bill Maher said: Katherine Harris will be appointed ambassador to Bush's ass. She must be exhausted from kissing so much of it.

I feel sick.

Be well.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:40:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Oh God, now I'm really depressed
Message:
I forgot all about Lynne Cheney and her moral crusade against diversity in textbooks and against the NEA. This is the woman who seems to be unaware that he own daughter is a lesbian. They kept Lynne Cheney under wraps during the election, but what will happen now? Oh...my....god, she is a nightmare.

I think the Bush family was completely willing to sacrifice the political career of one son for the other if it meant getting back the presidency, which was all about revenge for what Clinton did to Bush senior.

Maybe Jeb is on the way out, but who knows. And what about the 10 Republican members of the Florida Assembly who voted to disenfranchise the entire state who are from districts that Gore won? Do you think their constituents might be a bit miffed at how little they cared for their voting rights? But will they remember?

Interesting about John Kerry. Yes, those things would haunt him in an election, and the background, digging up dirt, machine of the Republicans is finely tuned, that's for sure. If Hillary doesn't run, and I think she'd be nuts if she did, who else is there? I'd love to see Paul Wellstone run, but he is outside the current crop of DLC Democrats, who all seem to be from the South and are pretty conservative.

It really is depressing to look at the situation and see how great Bill Clinton looks by comparison.

There was a bunch of discussion in my firm about the conflicts of Scalia's son working for Gibson, using that as an excample, since this is a big deal around here too, and is always being discussed. [I sit on the risk management committee of my firm, and we talk about this ad nauseum.]

It's pretty established in the ethical opinions, that it's okay to work for a firm that is doing work for which that causes a conflict, as long as the client waves it, and as long as the person doesn't have anything to do with the case, and there is an 'ethical wall,' (which used to be called the very un-pc 'Chinese wall') in place within the firm so that there is no communication with Scalia's kid about the case. Also, since it wasn't clear the case was going to the Supreme Court, there wasn't any conflict before that. But generally, a judge will usually recuse himself in those situations, but Scalia isn't about to, that's for sure, and there probably is no technical violation, just the appearance of one.

Did Michael Douglas have a lift? You really have to tell us.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:02:32 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Gut the system, then gut the artists who might
Message:
point it out. Actually, the system was pretty shot anyway, I think, and this last debacle has just ripped away the curtain hiding the wizard. I can just picture Lynne Cheney taking the caps off her pointed teeth, now that she can show them, and putting on her working bib for all the drool that's dripping from the gaping hole she calls her mouth. If I were a betting babe, I'd betcha she gets her hands on the NEA and Humanities funding and has a field day. That'd be a true shame because she'd be the death knell for the canaries in the coal mine. My husband's received several NEA grants, and he said that when he received them, they never interfered with content. Now that's all they do. We can only hope that her daughter gets a grant to write a book. I think we're owed some Divine Justice.

Now, for the more important news re Michael Douglas: A friend and I were looking at a mag with Douglas on the cover and my friend remarked Douglas looked like he'd been lifted. The test of a good lift is that you look well-rested, and Michael looked damn well-rested. :-)) Hey, if I were a thousand years old and was married to a babe in her 20s, I'd get a lift. Nevertheless, a bunch of people at the news stand started discussing whether Douglas had had a lift or not. It was pretty damn funny, and surreal, to boot. Gotta love it.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:27:50 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Gut the system, then gut the artists who might
Message:
I can just picture Lynne Cheney taking the caps off her pointed teeth, now that she can show them, and putting on her working bib for all the drool that's dripping from the gaping hole she calls her mouth

Did you see the cover of the Nation a couple of months ago? It showed Lynne Cheney with fangs, and how there was a concerted effort to keep her from opening her mouth until after the election. It was just like what you described.

God, head of the NEA. Or maybe NEA, or maybe the Department of Education? Those cabinet appointments will be very telling.

Well good for Michael Douglas. I guess I could use a lift after all this, but I think it would be more chemical than surgical.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:55:56 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Gut the system, then gut the artists who might
Message:
I guess my gut's in tune with The Nation when it comes to Lynne Cheney.

I don't know if this an urban legend or not, but every now and then, Preparation H is touted as a mini face lift. A host of jokes come to mind about that one, but I think I'll leave it alone.

Didja see Bush-lite's speech? Talk about head and voice choreography. His head did this weird four point bob, while his phrasing sounded sing song. He was not connected to what he was saying. Plus, what president says 'now is the time to leave politics behind,' especially when it's just beginning for him.

My favorite comment of the evening about the two speeches was, 'Gore did more for Bush than Bush did for himself.' That says it all.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:03:48 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Truly Amazing.
Message:
Also, I was listening to a program about the possibility of Clinton providing clemency to Peltier, and some one on the program made the point that Bush could void Clinton's executive order(s). Is that true?

He can certainly void executive orders with ongoing implications, but probably cannot void a pardon. I've heard that one possibility for reaching out for Bush would be to issue a pardon for President Clinton, shielding him from further prosection for his 'cigar' episode. I'm not holding my breath.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:18:26 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Truly Amazing.
Message:
Joe:

but the decision also, equally cynically, said the decision only applied to THIS particular case.

Yeah, I picked up on that. 'Special case equal protection' is truly an amazing concept. There is a HUGE window of opportunity here, that these people may be too obtuse to see (see Reform thread above). I truly hope they miss it. And I agree those four justices in the FLSC are heroes. The only thing they missed, possiby, is to suggest a voluntary standard protocol. That would have at least stripped out the equal protection cover that Kennedy and O'Connor used. I think this still could end up as a situation where the losers win, and the winners lose.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 17:00:05 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sorry to say this, but...
Message:
I told you so. I deal with these folks nearly every day and I have no faith in them whatsoever. Besides having a client on death row in Texas, just about the worst thing that can happen to you in a capital habeas case is ending up in front of the USSC.

I can't even bear to read the rest of this thread.


Marianne

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:58:07 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Don't be sorry. Get even.
Message:
Marianne:

I used to date Justice O'Connor's aerobics/physical trainer. She was not impressed, and used to comment about the extent to which these people saw themselves as essentially superior, even in a moral sense... and how contemptuous they are of 'ordinary' people. I just thought she was being hyperbolic. She was a redhead, after all.

As a generalization my impression of elites of the Demcrat persuasion, like S.M. Lipset, is quite different. They are often more than willing to get out of the car and help push a little. I think we have finally gotten to the bottom of the partisan divide, which can be enormously useful information. I don't put it past the Democratic leadership to completely miss the opportunity, however. I'm currently trying to reach out to some of my friends on the radical left, to see if I can clue them in.

And I really think it's time for the Republcans to relish their enormous victory, rest on their laurels, and take a well deserved and satiated nap.

Agenda:

1. Get a manual count of the statewide undervote in Florida, using a methodologically rigorous protocol, by an acknowledged non-partisan group or organization.

2. Set up a clear legislative agenda along the lines of the items listed under 'Reform' above, and encourage Republicans to continue talking about 'voters too dumb to vote.'

3. Encourage Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms to run in the Marine Corps Marathon, or finally take that skydiving lesson they've been putting off for so long.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:57:59 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Don't be sorry. Get even.
Message:
Since Scalia wants to be Chief Justice, which is basically behind his current decision, Rehnquist better hurry up and resign soon after January 20, and Bush better nominate him as Chief Justice, right away, or at least in the first year of his presidency. That way, he only needs on additional vote in the Senate and he might be confirmed.

Otherwise, there are about 7 Republican senators up for election in 2002 who are in states Gore won, or lost narrowly, and they know they are in trouble in 2002. Plus, as you say, Thurmond and Helms might kick over any minute and both are in states with Democratic governors. So there you have it. They better strike soon.

Expect to see Rehnquist and O'Connor resign within the next year, and Scalia be nominated to CJ. Paybacks are paybacks.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:37:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne, take heart.. the SF Supervisor Elections
Message:
The progressives all won and Willie lost all his supporters. Is Ammiano now the true mayor of San Francisco?

The very best: both Michael Yaki and Amos Brown lost. I think Mabel may have lost also. Matt Gonzalez won; Sophie Maxwell won. Chris Daly got 80% of the vote. Is this a great city or what?

With all that's going on nationally, it just goes to show what a great place this is to live.

By the way, when I voted yesterday, the poll workers were saying that if we produced a 'chad' we would be fined.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:02:26 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Joe
Subject: Marianne, take heart.. the SF Supervisor Elections
Message:
Yes, I agree, the supervisors' elections in SF had fabulous results. Amos Brown and Juanita Owens got totally whacked in their districts! And now, 2 public defenders (who will have to retire) will be on the board. I guess all that anti-criminal defense attorney rhetoric that was being spewed backfired.

I think Tom Ammiano is just great and I hope he gets the board presidency.

But boy, the national stuff sure is depressing.

Let's try to get together before I leave on January 1. Do you drink egg nog? Maybe you and your partner can come over for some holiday spirits.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 16:21:40 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott, that first sentence................
Message:
Have you had time to digest the ruling more?
Your first sentence in the thread.........................

7 to 2 decision.

The voters who used punch cards were handed instructions and told what the requirements were.
The stated requirements should have all along been the standard.
-you must make sure the hole is punched-

gore's people lead many stupid people to the voting booth.
Almost 90,000 voted twice-overvotes.
And very few of them were from the palm beach 'butterfly ballot'
area.
They were from the black areas.
And I grew up in North Palm Beach Fla and let me tell you,
BLACKS are DEFINATELY not allowed in Palm Beach.
Palm Beach people............a black walking across the bridge to palm beach, or on foot IN palm beach, of driving a car,
are stopped by the cops. It is very well known.

The 'disenfranchised' were stupid.
This is not a idiot proof world.
I learned that the hard way.
To get all sincere about the stupid ones, and try to eliminate
the overseas ones, and to lie and lie because they are counting
on the regular person to not see through thier lies, is the real
issue you should be all upset about.

The standard was in palm beach to not count unpunched votes.
To claim that these are votes.............
Count me out

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:42:38 (GMT)
From: Think4yourself
Email: think4yourself@self
To: bill
Subject: Scott, that first sentence... // (5-4)
Message:
For the record, the Per Curiam Opinion was 5-4 not 7-2.

Part of the thinking of what was discussed was agreed to by 7 of the 9, BUT the bottom line let us mess-up things so that our guy BUSH will be the President was 5-4.......... {lol}

I believe that is an intellectual honest view...

Again: It was the Republican 5-4 or should I say Supreme Court 5-4 Per Curiam opinion that is the disgrace that we are now looking at with contempt.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:16:23 (GMT)
From: Think4yourself
Email: think4yourself@self
To: bill
Subject: Scott, that first sentence................
Message:
Hi........

You make some good points, BUT {YES the old BUT --- lol} BUT, the point I see that is not addressed by you is that of the ballots that were cast that may have at the time seemed even on inspection at the time by the voter that inspected the just punched ballot that indeed all the chads that should be off the ballot were and that they had a good ballot that would be counted as a vote, BUT that they did indeed leave a swinging chad on the ballot and yes it could be argued that it is their fault and if the machine does not count it it should not be counted, BUT BUT BUT.... That is not the LAW ..... The LAW says that with a recount that that ballot shall, {'SHALL'} be counted... This is concurred to by the U.S. Supreme Court....O' by the way..................

Soooooooooo at the very least those VOTES should be and or should have been counted.....it was that and is that in a compacted arena of elements of time and political games the clock sounded end of game!!! BUT BUT BUT..... the Law’s intent of in a hand count as prescribed by LAW that the voters intent is what is to be accepted, this is the LAW..... SADLY because of the happenstance of TIME and of the SHAMEFUL political GAME playing on the part of the Republicans we find ourselves with someone who will be the President who was not clearly elected to be the President!

This is sadly known not only to you and I, but also to the WORLD!

---------------------------------------------------------------
Bushes Daddy is real happy for those Republican Supreme Court Appointments he made for now his boy can as a result of the GAME playing of holding up the TRUE COUNT that his boy will technically be the president of the U.S.. {how sad} and {pathetic}.....

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:52:07 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Think4yourself
Subject: Scott, that first sentence................
Message:
TFY:

BUT, the point I see that is not addressed by you is that of the ballots that were cast that may have at the time seemed even on inspection at the time by the voter that inspected the just punched ballot that indeed all the chads that should be off the ballot were and that they had a good ballot that would be counted as a vote,

I'm willing to bet that had a poll been conducted after a vote not more that 20% even noticed those instructions, not more than 5% read them, and not more than 1 or 2% actually checked their ballot. My roommate is an engineer and he says he did. I have a hunch that 90% of that 1 to 2% who did check their ballot for hanging chads were engineers. I'll bet Sandra Day O'Connor has never checked a ballot for chads in her life. Not once.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 13:04:00 (GMT)
From: Think4yourself
Email: think4yourself@self
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott, that first sentence................
Message:
I did, if you re-read......

The LAW in the SUNSHINE STATE (lol) makes it count in the hand count by that very very very much, so called giveing the voter the {NOD} of if you can tell if such and such a vote is to count then COUNT IT!

lol......... It is the LAW......

I could make a more detailed report but, instead if you are not sure of what I say do some reading on it and see for yourself.

Gore was played by, {'THE BUSHES'}......

KEEP OUT OF THE BUSHES....................

lol

TE

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 17:17:46 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Think4yourself
Subject: Scott, that first sentence................
Message:
TFY:

The LAW in the SUNSHINE STATE (lol) makes it count in the hand count by that very very very much, so called giveing the voter the {NOD} of if you can tell if such and such a vote is to count then COUNT IT!

I'm sorry, I still don't know what you're saying.

As Kennedy put it, if you trip over a dog then you know where the dog is, but the issue concerns those ballots where the intent of the voter is subject to some argument or ambiguity. It's a matter of method, and a machine count *is* biased and can be improved upon by using a hand count. Precision is relative, but an increase in precision is still desirable and achievable even if in the absence of certainty.

For istance there's a whole branch of sociology that deals with something called 'latent content analysis' where you take open-ended text either in a verbal or written response to a question, or a sample of news articles, or whatever; and turn those into analyzable data. You do this by utilizing a protocol for reading and interpreting the text in such a way that you standardize the interpretation and can them employ statistical techniques. It's a very solid field of research, frequenty imployed by the intelligence community. I talked with one particularly brilliant fellow at RAND who does this sort of thing. The work he does is literally worth billions of dollars, and he doesn't know the first thing about reading minds.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 17:42:49 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: The core difference
Message:
Bill:

Keep arguing that the disinfranchised were just stupid. Please. That's just a charming attitude for the winners to take. Do you think a defeat in the national popular vote by a margin greater than that achieved by John F. Kennedy, and a certified margin in Florida of less than 1000 votes is some sort of mandate to start demanding IQ tests for voting rights? Very savvy, I must say. But let me be the first to encourage you to stick with that position.

And if you think this was a 7-2 decision read it carefully. This was a 5-4 ruling, by any credible standard at all. 2 of the 7 were clearly in favor of looking at and counting the ballots, while the other 2 didn't think the case should have been accepted at all. The 5 made counting effectively impossible, while calling attention to their partisanship by carefully (and ineffectively) covering their asses with verbal technicalities. All of this is irrelevant now. This ruling is totally transparent. But let the winners settle down for a nice little nappypoo. I'm all for it.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:58:52 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Stop the hype, already
Message:
It's over. Gore's conceding, or at least 'withdrawing' at 9:00 tonight.

Finally.

And Bill's right. Some people are just too fucking dumb to vote.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:20:19 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Stop the hype, already
Message:
Jerry:

I want you to keep saying that. Have a nice nap.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:30:56 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Stop the hype, already
Message:
Lighten up, Scott. It could have been a lot worse. At least it all ended peacefully. Have you looked at how some of these other elections have gone lately, most notably in Africa? Things could be a lot worse.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:55:02 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: hype?
Message:
Jerry:

Actually, I think things have just begun.

I agree that the peaceful transition of power is what marks US Democracy, but that doesn't lead me to believe that there aren't some serious pathologies involved here. I intend to focus on a positive agenda, but if pressed I have no problem making the point that the USSC was crassly partisan... or was at least strummed by a crassly partisan hand. It made the same sort of error as the Dred Scott court (though not to the same degree), which focused on rights to property while ignoring the injustice of slavery itself. I think this court strained out gnats and swallowed camels... and if that's not partisanship it is at least a moral failing to which conservatives seem disproportionately susceptible.

Not that we all aren't susceptible to some extent. Again, I think this is a nicely packaged little metaphor for what I take to be the dominant moral failing of the century: the preoccupation we have with influencing each other, in the absence of any particular commitment to honesty. I think what happened here is so blatantly transparent that there's not even much reason to talk about it. I'm going to have fun looking at the way people move the fig leaf around over the next few years, as though we're all too nearsighted to see around it.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 16:31:18 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: 'disenfranchised'? That is absurd.
Message:
Scott,
the overvotes were from black people that were lead to the voting booth for the first time by gore people.
They ADMIT they instructed the voters to vote on EVERY PAGE.
SO....THEY DID!
Once for president on page one, and once for president on page two! Picking all manner of other candidates that were on the ballot besides the bush/gore/nader ones the media would only discuss.

Disenfranchised?
I think not

And those too dumb to read the butterfly in Palm Beach?
Disenfranchised?
I think not.

And those that did not pay attention to see if they punched
the ballot hole like they were instructed?
Disenfranchised'
I think not.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 17:27:50 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Yes, disenfranchised.
Message:
I think so. If your logic were carried out to it's conclusion then all one would have to do to load the dice in elections is design ballots and voting systems that were sufficiently complex that elderly and less intelligent voters could simply not cast a reliable ballot. Because of this we have a standard, in nearly every state, that votes count if the 'intent' of the voter can be discerned. A voting system that discriminates between voters on the basis of their intelligence, perceptual accuity, etc. is quite clearly a violation of equal protection. So, disenfranchised? I think so.

But if you want to cleave to your argument then I'm sure the Democratic Party will be happy to leave you with that 'cause' as they adopt the alternative. Yeah, that'd be a real winner. Just open that door a little wider please, by continuing to argue in this vein. See you in 2002.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:21:26 (GMT)
From: Think4yourself
Email: think4yourself@self
To: Scott T.
Subject: Yes, disenfranchised.
Message:
lol

YES yes yes...............................

Not only interesting, but well written.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 15:40:15 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Will Bush be The first
Message:
Non-elected president in the History of the great and all mighty empire of The United State of America?
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:30:51 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Historian
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Will Bush be The first
Message:
No, Gerald Ford was the first non-elected president in the history of the great and almighty empire of the United States of America.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 23:10:58 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mickey the Historian
Subject: Will Bush be The first
Message:
Michael:

I was going to say that Bush may be the first American president elected to office, who actually lost not only the popular vote, but the vote to award the electors. The problem is that the 'vote' in Florida didn't actually matter, so 'elected' is a relative term. Fortunately the Florida Republican House of Representatives has given us an authoritative metaphor for the entire election: 'Gimme Dat Ting.'

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 06:48:34 (GMT)
From: Think4yourself
Email: think4yourself@self
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Supreme Hacks
Message:
I see that the State Supreme Court of Florida may put forth a system that will allow the {!) VOTES to be counted still at this late date by the 18th maybe even beyond, they (the votes) may not be accepted but they may be. And they (the votes) may be for all time an official record of the people as put forth by the State Supreme Court of Florida.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 06:46:07 (GMT)
From: Ann
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Supreme Hacks
Message:
I hear it is still not over yet.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 06:39:03 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Supreme Hacks
Message:
At least the comedy routines on Bush will be funny.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:12:28 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Can You Imagine????
Message:
Can you imagine Bush meeting with Yassir Arafat, or trying to resolve the situation in Northern Ireland, like Clinton is doing right now.

Can you imagine Bush even giving a State of the Union Address without people cracking up and wondering who really wrote it?

It's pathetic and it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:30:47 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Can You Imagine????
Message:
Yeah, I mentioned that earlier, about the hilarity of Bush brokering a deal between Arafat and whoever will be the new prime minister of Israel.

Bush is a fucking clown and a worthless piece of pond-scum. I'm really sickened by this. Every time I see Bush's image I'm repulsed.

I think half of the people who voted for Bush are, at best, equal or less intelligent than him, and the other half know he's a dolt but don't think it matters.

This is really depressing.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 05:25:57 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Dred Scott II
Message:
Floyd Abrahms, one of the most respected judicial scholars in the country, called this decision 'A failure of the judicial process.'
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 06:24:57 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Judicial Coup d'Etat
Message:
The best commentary I heard was a news commentator who called the Supremes' decision a Judicial Coup d'Etat. I agree.

Also, I heard on the news tonight that Scalia's son is a lawyer in the same firm as Olson, Bush's lawyer, who appeared before the Supremes.

I think we just saw on a large scale what happens on a smaller scale all the time.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 06:36:16 (GMT)
From: Think4yourself
Email: think4your@self
To: Monmot
Subject: Judicial Coup d'Etat
Message:
I see that the State Supreme Court of Florida may put forth a system that will allow the {!) VOTES to be counted still at this late date by the 18th maybe even beyond, they (the votes) may not be accepted but they may be. And they (the votes) may be for all time an official record of the people as put forth by the State Supreme Court of Florida.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 04:12:54 (GMT)
From: Jesse Jikeson
Email: None
To: Scotty.
Subject: The Supreme Hacks...can u believe it
Message:
$252 million to play baseball.
geesh
how much does K cost ?
zip.
nil
the supreme hacks
stop the recount and then rule that
there's no time to count
they stop the recount and then rule we can't count it fast enuf.
anybody got a clue as to what you is doing.
democracy ...ba humbug..
exes...ba humbug..
the beetles...now there's a bug..
an futhermore ...'bout those cookies...
we is all getting more bush in the new millenium
and things will soon be catostraphic...
could you pleeze pass the 'grey poupon'
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 04:23:17 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jesse Jikeson
Subject: The Supreme Hacks...can u believe it
Message:
Just to keep things in perspective, I'd take Antonin Scalia over Maharaji any day. Thanks for the heads up.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 06:07:05 (GMT)
From: Think4yourself
Email: think4yourself@self
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Supreme Hacks...can u believe it
Message:
You said, 'I'd take Antonin Scalia over Maharaji any day.'

Do what you will, for me, I will not take anyone over anyone....... I will take my own thinking....reality.....the way I see things....such as I see that the State Supreme Court of Florida may put forth a system that will allow the {!) VOTES to be counted still at this late date by the 18th maybe even beyond, they (the votes) may not be accepted but they may be. And they (the votes) may be for all time an official record of the people as put forth by the State Supreme Court of Florida.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 09:14:03 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Think4yourself
Subject: This might work.
Message:
Shit, I should have thought of this. The problem with respect to equal protection only involves punch card ballots. There's nothing to prevent canvassing boards who have punch card systems from voluntary compliance with a set of standard protocols to count the undervote. There can't be more than a few such counties. All it would take is a conference call. This assumes the canvassing boards aren't Republicans bent on running out the clock. Well, it might work.

There's the problem that the current set of electors for Bush has been established within the safe harbor. However, the current set of electors is in place due to a flawed certification, which can now be overturned on the basis of equal protection since it includes manually counted returns from Broward. The elector slate may be immune from a challenge in congress, but not from an equal protection challenge.

Then again, maybe it's just time to quit and start planning for 2002.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 07:04:27 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Think4yourself
Subject: I usually do, but it's expensive.
Message:
TFY:

I see that the State Supreme Court of Florida may put forth a system that will allow the {!) VOTES to be counted still at this late date by the 18th maybe even beyond, they (the votes) may not be accepted but they may be. And they (the votes) may be for all time an official record of the people as put forth by the State Supreme Court of Florida.

I don't think they can. As I understand it they can't promulgate statewide standards themselves, so it's a catch 22. The USSC left them one out, so that they didn't have to cop to the catch 22 (the definition of judicial failure) which is to recommend a standard subject to approval of the Secretary of State. She's not exactly cooperative, which can't have escaped the notice of the majority justices. They are boxed in, in a crassly cynical political move. Game over.

As I see it the Supreme Court, and the whole judicial process, is going to take the heat for this... with some justification. They are clearly political players. Either that, or they've been played like a banjo. Take your pick.

I think Gore is going through all of these scenarios himself, and at some point will just decide that it's easier to concede than fight these guys.

One thing that might be done is to have some independent organization count the ballots according to a rigorous protocol. Perhaps have Price Waterhouse do it for a fee. But it would be far more believable if it were financed by a non-partisan organization of some kind. Maybe the Miami Herald could count the ballots in Miami-Dade and Duval by Jan. 6th, just to embarrass the hell out of Bush. He certainly deserves it given his sorry and self interested performance throughout this entire situation, and his knowing contribution to disenfranchising the voters of Florida (which he could clearly have avoided by simply agreeing to a manual count, and which he could *still* avoid, BTW).

In the end I think the verdict of history will involve the insight that this election was not really about power, but about a sort of moral failing that infected nearly everyone involved. Gore could have demanded a statewide manual count, with voluntary standards, from the very first. He didn't for the very same reason that Bush argued that equal protection wasn't being met, without ever having asked for it. And they both did it for the very same reason that the five justices in the majority opinion laced their argument with catch 22s that were couched in ambiguous and deliberately complex accountability-avoiding language, that seeks to shed blame on everyone *else*. This is a neatly packaged little metaphor for this period at the end of the 20th century... It has us down to a T: The culture of influencers.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:10:26 (GMT)
From: Think4yourself
Email: think4yourself@self
To: Scott T.
Subject: I usually do, but it's expensive.
Message:
Not only interesting, but well written.

I look foward to talking with you again...........

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 07:33:59 (GMT)
From: Jesse Jikeson
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I usually do.
Message:
thanks for the heads up ?
what's up with that.
this is where the sh!t hits the fan
more bush in 2001
gorey will continue to have the most votes
the 'people' can't count them
the market will crash
people will jump out of buildings
the average joeblow can't make hides or tails out of law.
it's all a bunch of bs
if you gots the cache, you ain't in prison
hope you guys don't really vote, do you ?
so...it's the end of the kali yuga
and those who seek the heart...with find the gem
I told you guys to vote for bill bradley
i'll take victoria silvstadt over claudia schiffer
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