Joe -:- Maharaji's Sexual/ Chemical Addictions -- A Survey -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 17:52:21 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- Maharaji's Sexual/ Chemical Addictions -- A Survey -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 21:46:30 (GMT)

__ Ian Dury -:- Maharaji's Sexual/ Chemical Addictions -- A Survey -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 23:29:11 (GMT)

__ __ C.G. -:- What doe's Monica look like? -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 18:28:58 (GMT)

__ such -:- like most premies,not x-rated,info not publicized -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 22:44:24 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- What lila are you talking about? -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 23:53:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ such -:- you mean you never heard about that one?! -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 02:48:28 (GMT)

__ cq -:- your strong suspicion -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:56:14 (GMT)

__ Lesley -:- Maharaji's Sexual/ Chemical Addictions -- A Survey -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:52:39 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- Maharaji's Sexual/ Chemical Addictions -- A Survey -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 22:05:32 (GMT)

__ __ Curious George -:- What did you think of Monica? -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 20:01:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- What did you think of Monica? -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 21:00:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Susan -:- Yes, it is upsetting to think about Monica -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 21:51:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Susan, I agree, being a victim of.... -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 22:43:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ red butler -:- Monica's Blues -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 17:59:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Monica's Blues -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 05:52:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ red butler -:- It's all in poor taste, Joy -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 16:04:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- It's all in poor taste, Joy -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 19:40:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ red butler -:- It's all in poor taste, Joy -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 20:20:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Susan-check post for next movie idea.....nt -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 22:34:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Professional escort?Our next scene in the movie... -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 22:29:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- My Vote Is 'Maha' (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 14:06:10 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Lesley, did you ever talk about your suspicions? -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:58:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ Lesley -:- I've sent a reply but it doesn't seem to have -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 21:39:33 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- Maharaji's Sexual/ Chemical Addictions -- A Survey -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:31:15 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- Another blond -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 20:28:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- And lead me not unto temptation -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:09:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- And lead me not unto temptation -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 17:10:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Patrick -:- And lead me not unto temptation -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:00:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- And lead me not unto temptation -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 16:57:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick -:- And lead me not unto temptation -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 23:31:35 (GMT)

kapiladev -:- ex-premie ranch -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 03:54:56 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Will there be a bar? (nt) -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 14:28:25 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- What about smokers?.......nt -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 15:30:26 (GMT)

SUCHaBANANA -:- EXCLUSIVE! Marolyn: not me, not Nouri, but fatboy -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:38:17 (GMT)

__ Cynthia - Yikes! -:- EXCLUSIVE! Marolyn: not me, not Nouri, but fatboy -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 16:23:48 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- It's A Dirty Job But... -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:19:12 (GMT)

Michael Dettmers -:- My response to Joe and others -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 23:42:46 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- Rawat and these women -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 15:13:00 (GMT)

__ Thank -:- You for your honesty-nt -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 18:32:00 (GMT)

__ Brutus -:- Did you add 'PIMP' career on your CV, Michael?(nt) -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 16:57:47 (GMT)

__ __ gerry -:- brutus aint gerry, btw -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 18:18:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ Marianne -:- brutus aint gerry, btw -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 20:06:06 (GMT)

__ This 1997 email I got .. -:- from a premie friend, is probably is true then... -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 09:02:24 (GMT)

__ __ add to best of forum? -:- seems like it fits in with the MD section-nt -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 18:24:43 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- My response to Joe and others -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 00:47:55 (GMT)

__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- My response to Joe and others -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 00:57:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Wow, what a weird position to be in..... -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:06:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Wow, what a weird position to be in..... -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:39:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Sexual exploitation: Jim Jones and M -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 03:34:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Exactly! Sikh,Sikh,Sikh! This is TOO much! (nt -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:15:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- That reminds me of a conversation I had -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 17:35:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Sexual exploitation: The way of the world -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 17:29:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Sexual exploitation: The way of the world -:- Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:12:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Your counselor -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:36:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Counseling session -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 14:39:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Another old fashioned fuddy-duddy -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:54:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sh[ -:- Another old fashioned fuddy-duddy -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 05:08:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Another old fashioned fuddy-duddy -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 05:18:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- You don't need a weatherman -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 14:43:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Counselors are not supposed to give out advice... -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:22:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Liz -:- Authenticity and accountability -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 17:53:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sucha -:- Dump that counselor, Sandy. That's too weird! (nt -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:23:10 (GMT)

__ jondon -:- My response to Joe and others -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 00:01:16 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- No way. -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 00:48:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Scott T. -:- No way. -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 15:41:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ jondon -:- No way. -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:00:55 (GMT)

suchabanda -:- from British Press: 2 accounts of m.'s darshan! -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 22:13:06 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- from British Press: 2 accounts of m.'s darshan! -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:20:21 (GMT)

__ __ Daneane -:- Darshan in M's head -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:52:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ c.g. -:- I had darshan with Jim! -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:07:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Precious -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:21:43 (GMT)

__ __ Curious Geoge -:- I had a darshan experience with Sir Paul -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:15:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ such -:- I cried too... -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 21:14:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I cried too... -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 05:00:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- October 9, 1940 (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:30:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks Oliver! (nt) -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 07:57:48 (GMT)

__ la-ex -:- British Press: m.'s darshan!/How 'bout Elvis? -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 23:57:17 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- from British Press: 2 accounts of m.'s darshan! -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 22:34:30 (GMT)

Buzz -:- Maharaji,try practicing Holy Name -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 19:11:45 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- And, never leave room for doubt in your mind, -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 21:04:15 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- And fill out your bankers order... -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 14:39:21 (GMT)

Salam -:- Just to make things clear -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 16:09:36 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Thanks Salam (nt) -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:23:10 (GMT)

__ Bazza -:- Just to make things a bit clearer (OT) -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 06:29:07 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- While were at it -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:48:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bazza -:- About servers? OT -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 16:15:44 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- Salam, it's just computer stuff -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 17:42:00 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- Salam, it's just computer stuff -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 18:03:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ Buzz -:- Salam, it's just computer stuff -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 18:59:55 (GMT)

Mr. Free -:- How about the Denver Broncos -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 05:12:41 (GMT)

__ such -:- Yes,feeling the bliss:Chiefs 20,geldings 7 (nt(ot -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 21:57:25 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- GO RAIDERS.....(nt) -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:26:37 (GMT)

__ Still in IHQ Denver -:- I'm a Broncos fan..but not on this site! (ot) (nt) -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 16:19:31 (GMT)

__ such -:- FUCK the Denver Broncos! and label OT, dude! (nt -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 06:48:04 (GMT)

Ian Dury -:- EV's current communication crisis -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:12:50 (GMT)

__ C..G. -:- Smart P.R. People -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:28:03 (GMT)

__ JTF -:- Thanks! If only one of these escapees...... -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 11:12:57 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Watch this space -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 14:42:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- Watch this space/any details? -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 17:48:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ JTF -:- Watch this space/Alright!! -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 15:08:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Watch this space/Alright!! -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:09:28 (GMT)

ulf -:- wasted years -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 22:53:01 (GMT)

__ Aussi Ji -:- wasted years -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 01:48:54 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- wasted years -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 06:38:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- wasted years -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 08:32:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ C.G. -:- Dumping the whole trip! -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:45:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- To C.G. Her name was... -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 21:19:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Go and see him , better than a letter nt -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 00:10:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Write the letter -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 23:48:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Dumping the whole trip! Write the Letter, C.G. -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 23:11:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- wasted years -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 17:57:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ aussi Ji -:- wasted years -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 19:15:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- wasted years -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 23:52:17 (GMT)

__ Kelly -:- not wasted years -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 23:36:09 (GMT)

__ __ ulf -:- not wasted years -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 00:45:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- Yeah, they were wasted, alright -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 01:22:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ C.G. -:- 3 kids, not wasted time - It's O.K. to be wrong -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:58:30 (GMT)

__ __ Tim G -:- not wasted years -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 23:48:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Wasted Years or Not? -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:13:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- Wasted Years or Not? -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 04:09:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ kap -:- wasted days and wasted nights -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:42:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Kap: I don't know you, so..... -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 04:40:38 (GMT)

Jerry -:- Just one more (ot) -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 19:24:07 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- Very clever -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 23:55:16 (GMT)

Kelly -:- Miragey's recent diatribe -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 17:53:05 (GMT)

__ shp -:- Feedback -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 03:14:10 (GMT)

__ __ Chad (just hangin') -:- A small, cautionary note -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:10:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- You are really a piece of work.. -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:10:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chad -:- Danny? -:- Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:52:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Fuck off Danny , your paw prints are all over -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 22:01:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- A few non-cautionary questions for chad... -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 17:50:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Kelly -:- A small, cautionary note -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 16:39:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ shp -:- Cautionary? Who sends veiled threats here? -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 16:08:48 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- I applaud your integrity Sandy nt -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 08:02:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ Kelly -:- I applaud your integrity Sandy and double it! -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 16:52:07 (GMT)

__ __ Stonor -:- Elaine + you have GOT to read the shp's post! (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 05:31:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Stonor -:- shouldn't be 'the' - not 'the post above' (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 05:35:50 (GMT)

__ Gordon Showcase -:- Miragey's recent diatribe - he's right -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:20:25 (GMT)

__ __ brian too -:- Miragey's recent diatribe - he's right -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 09:23:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- Exsuse -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 13:52:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ sucha -:- He's finding own path:now obstacle disappearing(nt -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:38:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ brian too -:- just looking at -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:13:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- There are no both sides -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 00:11:30 (GMT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- Right On Brother - You Tell Em nt -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 04:31:19 (GMT)

__ Patrick -:- Miragey's recent diatribe - my take. -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 01:10:39 (GMT)

__ __ C.G. -:- My Take -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:16:54 (GMT)

__ __ Mary -:- Here's the deal Maharaji -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 16:49:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Maharaji's a disgrace to India -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 19:08:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ C.G. -:- Gives E.Indians a bad name -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:25:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Sir Dave: Maharaji's a disgrace to the planet! nt -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 21:10:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Here's the deal Maharaji--great post! -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 17:37:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Kelly -:- Spot on, a true Indian Giver! nt -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 17:19:28 (GMT)

__ __ Kelly -:- My take on your take. Brilliant -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 13:15:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- My Take -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:14:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ C.G. -:- Equating M with K - big mistake! -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:39:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ Patrick -:- Thanks Kelly - here's what I think. -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 09:41:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ Marianne -:- 'Don't define Maharaji' -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 04:00:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- I saw you! -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 22:55:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- I saw you! -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:16:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- My take on ' Maharaji is Maharaji '..... -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 20:55:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ JTF -:- My take on your take. Brilliant -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 13:27:52 (GMT)

__ __ suchabanana -:- Good on you, mate.Read Patrick's post,premies!(nt) -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:09:45 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Who Wore The Krishna Outfit? Who Wore The Crown? -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:00:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joy -:- Of Krishna Crowns and Arti -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 19:40:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ shp -:- Who Wore The Krishna Outfit? Who Wore The Crown? -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 13:59:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Cult leaders and S hemisphere hidy holes. -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 21:36:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- WHAT??? -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 04:09:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Here's the internet address in case -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 21:53:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Cult leaders and S hemisphere hidy holes. Hi Bin.. -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 22:21:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Darshan is the draw of Amaroo , you're right -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:18:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Amaroo event next April -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 08:51:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mary -:- Amaroo...BYOD -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:54:28 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- What the hell is he talking about? -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 00:35:41 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- Knowledge works , he said -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 00:24:50 (GMT)

__ __ Kelly -:- All meditation works -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 14:56:14 (GMT)

__ Patrick -:- One person's reaction. -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 21:02:26 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Patrick, great post... -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 21:16:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ shp -:- Death as an alternative.... -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 14:17:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Curious George -:- Actor =Jesus - Miragey = Krishna -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:56:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Death as an alternative.... -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 18:43:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Life as a priority -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 16:16:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Death as an alternative...Hmmmm! -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 18:50:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ Kelly -:- Patrick, great post...I agree -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 21:27:00 (GMT)

__ Marianne -:- Miragey's recent diatribe -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 18:10:06 (GMT)

__ __ suchabanana -:- US citizen/resident m. vs. First Amendment rts. -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 05:56:30 (GMT)

__ __ Kelly -:- Did you hear the one about the frog in the well ? -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 21:19:06 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Miragey's recent diatribe -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 19:06:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ shp -:- To Cynthia -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 14:36:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Eiydhiwnay -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 17:38:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Eiydhiwnay -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 02:48:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Eiydhiwnay -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 01:55:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Sandy, I wish you well. -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 21:00:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Kelly, I wish you well. -:- Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 23:07:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Boggle Head -:- The mind boggles doesn't it! -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 20:13:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- I'm curious too -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 22:42:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- To shp: Maharaj is Maharaji...hmmmm -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 16:05:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- To Cynthia -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 16:56:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Marianne,did you review my list of documents?(nt:) -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 19:12:34 (GMT)

Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 17:52:21 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji's Sexual/ Chemical Addictions -- A Survey Message:

Hi Everyone, and Hello Elan Vital and other premie monitors, how ya doin? Okay, so what have we heard so far: I think the most damning thing about Maharaji's personal behavior, lack of morals, megalomania, and uncarring attitude toward other people is what was confirmed by Michael Dettmers yesterday, (and reported by a number of others to many of us), that Maharaji has had a series of sexual affairs with female premies (mostly blondes I gather), and in many cases simply cast these people aside after he was done with them. Indeed, it appears Michael had the divine 'service' for awhile of arranging for these women to meet Maharaji and then having to deal with the emotional mess that occurred afterwards on the part of these women. [I have to say, though, the prospect of Michael setting up Maharaji with a professional hooker is kind of amazing (and funny) to think about, too.] In addition, we have been repeatedly informed, and as confirmed by Mr. Dettmers, that Maharaji has had an ongoing sexual affair with Monica Lewis, another of his followers. We have also heard, although this has not been confirmed by Michael, rumors that Monica has had abortion(s)of babies she has conceived with Maharaji, and that Maharaji has purchased a house for Monica Lewis in live in, apparently in the LA area someplace. Despite what appears to be Maharaji's huge effort to keep all this secret, I have a strong suspicion that a lot of premies know about this, or at least some of it. So my question is, how many of YOU, especially those of you who have recently left the cult, knew about any of this when you were premies? Also, did you know about the drinking and the drugs? Believe me, I know that premies are about the most gossipy people in the world, or at least they were when I was a premie, and lots of stuff about Maharaji and other premies were chatted about regularly. Many premies just had to know. Also, as we all know, there are heirarchies of premies in the Maharaji-cult world. There are those who are in places like Malibu, have lots of money and sit in the front at programs, and maybe spend time around Maharaji, who often consider themselves part of the sophisticated premie-elite, who may know about this, but consider the information secret, and something that the premie Plebes shouldn't know about, for their own good, lest they become 'confused' seeing as they are not as advanced and sophisticated as they are. I suspect something like this may be operating as well. Okay, so here is the survey. Did you know about any of this while you were a premie, did you ever hear rumors about it? My response: When I was a premie, I never would have dreamed that Maharaji drank, used drugs, or carried on adulterous sexual affairs with premies or anyone else. I saw Maharaji at programs parade his perfect family in front of us and even have them speak on his behalf. I assumed he was the perfect father and family man, and being that he required that those of us in the ashram not use alcohol or drugs, I assumed he didn't either. I first heard about his drinking and sexual affairs in 1986, a few years after I left the cult, when I was told by someone from his staff, who was angry and resentful of Maharaji at the time. Michael has confirmed pretty much what she had told me.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 21:46:30 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joe Subject: Maharaji's Sexual/ Chemical Addictions -- A Survey Message:

I never knew it. First I heard of it was when I found this website, the fact that he abused alcohol blew me away. Call me naive Nellie. Now I find it completely disgusting that he wanted his lackies to arrange premie one night stands and then he threw them away after satisfying himself and it fits right in with everything I've gleaned from the last 2 years of being involved with this website. To sum it up: 1) M is a narcissist jerk 2) M and K are a business and that's it 3) The guru trip is a sham, for so many reasons, and M is certainly not the first guru to have sex with his disciples but I thought 'he was different, he was special' 4) I am happy to be disabused of these illusions and fantasies and to be putting my efforts towards people and causes and yes, BUSINESSES, that are more ethical and humanitarian 5) If M is the Lord, then the mole on my neck can sing 'Yankee Doodle' (in French!)

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 23:29:11 (GMT) From: Ian Dury Email: None To: Joe Subject: Maharaji's Sexual/ Chemical Addictions -- A Survey Message:

As someone who came to the 'Lord of the Universe' in the early 70's, I had absolutely no idea of his drug and alcohol use, affairs with 'gopis' and abuse of PAM's, even when I was in the ashram. Post-ashram, a premie who went through instructor training told me that the 'Lord' smoked Marlboros in front of them at dinner. I once met Monica Lewis backstage at a program where I was doing security and two things struck me: 1. She is stunningly beautiful, 2. Everyone tip-toed around her, she obviously had some 'pull' backstage. Thanks to Forum I, II, III, IV and V for ripping the curtain off the man behind the screen. THIS IS ALL SO SLIMEY!!

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 18:28:58 (GMT) From: C.G. Email: None To: Ian Dury Subject: What doe's Monica look like? Message:

I always imagined her with dark hair like the other infamous Monica but as M has a perchant for blondes I suspect she's a blondie. Please elaborate on her stunning beauty? C.G.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 22:44:24 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Joe Subject: like most premies,not x-rated,info not publicized Message:

Joe, The whole time I was a premie, I had no clue whatsoever about almost all of the truly 'rotten vegetable' information now available for the entire world to see. I knew, we, the premies were providing m. with a lavish lifestyle (not to the extent of the shell corporations, etc.), and also heard he maybe drank some champagne at parties, that's it. [Also, rumours of a hamburger lila in Miami - no big deal.] In fact, a whole lot of premies were smoking cigarettes or pot, too, drinking, even being promiscuous -- and perhaps feeling guilty as hell about it, too! But he was supposed to be the Lard, strongly advising us against the Maya illusion, drugs, desires, attachment, materialism, and so forth. Fatguru didn't play by his own rules - he put himself above his rules, and I think devotees accepted it because of m.'s own cult-promoted superstitions surrounding the whole Krishna, living lord and his lilas bullshit. Not to judge, but I wonder how 'consigliare' Michael Dettmers feels now - about having essentially 'pimped' for m.? That's really disgusting. I think perhaps Mike's trying to come clean now, but even then, how could he justify (to himself) the procuring of blondies and m.'s evident lust at the time, without feeling weird and questioning the whole crazy trip? I mean, even with such a heavy involvement in the inner circle, what about conscience? (Remember, Mike wrote he thought it was a good idea, at the time.) That x-rating [confidentiality] of the innermost circle certainly kept the wool pulled over the eyes of the masses of devotees around the world, however. Otherwise, m.'s own hypocritical farce could have been exposed much sooner. Similarly, m. obviously won Marolyn by abusing his position as her satguru. That's why she went for him in the first place, why else? She had rejected everything else in her life out of her spiritual devotion to her boy-guru. I mean, normally speaking, what really attractive 25 year-old woman is going to dump her fiancee, family, move into a premie house/ashram, prostrate herself at the altar of a fat kid, and then throw herself at the same dumpy, pimply 14-15 year-old KID? Nouri, me, and some other guys she knew and liked were smart, sensitive, Good-looking young MEN back then. As Durga ji, she admitted she wasn't physically attracted to m. - she even talked about this, and how he wasn't a Robert Redford or hunk (Amherst?). Then, there were the lilas with Gary Girard and his wife at the residence, and m. supposedly even telling Gary to take off his clothes one time, to confront Marilyn with her own repressed curiosity. [Gary himself wasn't exactly good-looking, either.] So, even as a young teenager m. had already abused his position as the spiritual leader of a registered church -- to enrich himself and take one of his trusting women devotees as a prize for himself. Perhaps it was teenaged infatuation or puppy love for him. But, an obese little Napoleon brat like that would never have won a grown babe like Marolyn -- were it not for her misguided spiritual beliefs about him - as the self-proclaimed Lord and saviour of mankind, and also by confusing her own inner spiritual experience with him. That's what the cult indoctrination did to her sincerity and mind. Now, she's got all these kids by him, she lives there in his palace, what's she to do, right?! Divorce him? M. learned very young that he could abuse his position as guru -- and get away with it! All this stuff is practically tailor-made for the print media and tele tabloids. Barf, barf, barf. Time for a break from these unfolding revelations today - this is sickening. Peace,

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 23:53:35 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: such Subject: What lila are you talking about? Message:

Then, there were the lilas with Gary Girard and his wife at the residence, and m. supposedly even telling Gary to take off his clothes one time, to confront Marilyn with her own repressed curiosity. [Gary himself wasn't exactly good-looking, either.] What 'lila' are you talking about. What do you mean, Gary was supposed to 'confront' Marolyn. God, that residence sounds like something out of Fellini.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 02:48:28 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Joe Subject: you mean you never heard about that one?! Message:

This is what I heard from premies at the residence when I was in the LA extended community in the mid-'70s: When m. and Marolyn were first married, Gary Girard and his new wife used to hang with the Rawats - fact. Anyway, supposedly m. thought Marolyn was taking a fancy to Gary. So, one day on the beach, he allegedly ordered Gary to essentially take it all off and run down the beach in front of Marolyn. Embarrassed her, I guess - it worked. Peace,

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:56:14 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: your strong suspicion Message:

'I have a strong suspicion that a lot of premies know about this, or at least some of it.' Yes Joe, it's a suspicion that might have a basis in reality. But just where the boundaries between justifiable suspicion and paranoia lie, is often difficult to place. It's my suspicion (paranoid, some might say) that a number of the so-called 'premies' that Rawat has attracted to himself are very different to the common-or-garden premie that you or I might identify with. 'Where there's muck there's brass' goes an old Yorkshire saying (brass=money), and if so, it can only follow that where there's brass there's muck. Have you entertained the possibility that some of the more 'X-rated' premies (as Michael has described them in previous posts) might not be quite the beacons of innocence and trust that the majority of us were, in those bygone halcyon days? In fact, it wouldn't surprise me that the Maha has attracted (to his intimate circle, as it were) a number of chancers who would be prepared to go to any extreme, in order to provide entertainment for his Lordship. What am I suggesting here? Simply this: that, given the Maha has a lifestyle that can buy virtually anything he wants, and being somewhat avaricious by nature (since it's the style to which he has become accustomed), he can afford to reward those people that give him what he wants. And what does an ex-Lord of the Universe want? To play it by the rules? To conform to the limitations his (denied) role would place upon him? Let's face it, the Maha is a man who could go to extremes that the likes of you or I never dream of. The suggestion I putting forward is this: are you really surprised that he hasn't acted like the pure-soul (Hansa-swan) embodiment of all things bright and beautiful that he once claimed to be? (oh yes he did). He knows he is no more divine than you or I (though for some reason or other, he might feel he has to pretend to be). And faced with the continuing exposures of his less-than Masterful history, do you think he'd try to keep the pretense up? The question has to be: Just WHO does he think he's fooling?'

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:52:39 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Joe Subject: Maharaji's Sexual/ Chemical Addictions -- A Survey Message:

1973 - 1997: I had heard unsubstantiated rumours from afar of M liking blondes, smoking cigars (this seemed to be true), no rumours of drinking to excess or being addicted to cigarettes or drugs. 1997: Met Monica Lewis, that sort of confirmed it at least subliminally, she was all fluffed up if ya know what I mean and leading those premie men around by the nose! Found that it was impossible to think about it at all, some professional premie would be bound to say heavily what an upright family man M was and make you feel guilty for the contamination of your thoughts. I find the revelation that he had a series of intimate liaisons, fucking and dumping his 'childish lovers', unutterably sad. Ugly is the term that comes to mind, what an ugly pathetic fucker he is.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 22:05:32 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Lesley Subject: Maharaji's Sexual/ Chemical Addictions -- A Survey Message:

Yes indeed

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 20:01:24 (GMT) From: Curious George Email: None To: Lesley Subject: What did you think of Monica? Message:

Dear Lesley, Do you know where she lives? Do you think she might want to expose all? Probably not. Too much invested. That's how I feel about these wealthy PAMS. Too much personal investment to walk away now. Too old in the tooth. C.G.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 21:00:34 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Curious George Subject: What did you think of Monica? Message:

I think Monica is stuck in the life which she has grown accustomed. It's kind of pathetic. And I guess she wasn't the ''stock'' M wanted for planting his seed, as it were, given she had abortion(s) for him, by him. This whole thing is just plain ugly. What an immoral thing that M is. I really wish some other PAMs would start talking about what they know. That's sad, too. Is it money they have to lose, or WHAT?? Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 21:51:01 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Yes, it is upsetting to think about Monica Message:

and the idea she was forced inot abortions of babies one would guess she very much wanted. Marolyn's babies are worth living, Monica's were not. Horrible. I feel really sorry for her. If she were not a cult member I might say she brought in on herself, but when you think that you are having an affair with the superior power in person I think she deserves a lot of forgiveness. She must have gone through an awful lot of pain.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 22:43:36 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Susan Subject: Susan, I agree, being a victim of.... Message:

someone with so much power and control over your life, a sexual/love slave, certainly, no less. And being showered upon by him (at his whim) at the same time having a ''particular'' status among the PAMs who know about her, Monica certainly has become entangled beyond the beyond, as we used to say....:)) I hope to Goddess she has the sense to stash away some cash (and then talks, too) when the big EMpire comes tumbling down. And Durga Ji. What a knock out beautiful woman--she seemed so sincere and lovely and real. Ya know what? I think she was ''way too much woman'' for even the LOTU!!!LOL The little prick! Love, Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 17:59:20 (GMT) From: red butler Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Monica's Blues Message:

His faced darken and his words slammed out of him like a high pitched jack hammer: ''Not--goddam--AGAIN--I'm not going through this bullshit another time! YOU TAKE CARE OF IT!'' It wasn’t the anger in his voice or the pure hate burning off his shiny face that made her cry. It was--that place, her age, everything. It was the awful thing she had to do and the sadness she felt for months afterward. Monica crossed the room to put some space between her and the ranting little Indian man. Her problem, her solution, her baby. She felt faint and weak in the knees. She sat down heavily, sinking into the silky love seat, and wrapped both arms tightly around herself. Soon, she wasn't even in the room anymore. The angry voice droned on somewhere in the background, but she was a little ball, rolled up and warm, floating somewhere safe and far away...

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 05:52:13 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: red butler Subject: Monica's Blues Message:

I personally think this post is in poor taste. She may be M's mistress, but she's a human being and should not have her suffering mocked in such a cruel way.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 16:04:59 (GMT) From: red butler Email: None To: Joy Subject: It's all in poor taste, Joy Message:

Where was the mocking part? You must be reading something into it which I never intended. The purpose of this little vignette is to cast M in a bad light (of course) and generate some sympathy for Monica as one of his victims. Please tell me where I went wrong, oh critic. PS I appreciate your taking the time to express your opinion.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 19:40:56 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: red butler Subject: It's all in poor taste, Joy Message:

I'm not sure exactly if I can put my finger on what seems wrong with it; while I understand the intent was to slam M (and justifiably so), just the tone of it struck me as slightly insulting to Monica and the genuine suffering she may have had to go through, to have fantasized about it in a sort of casual and almost callous-seeming way. Fortunately I have never had to have the experience myself, but I have heard that to have an abortion is one of the most difficult things psychologically a woman can ever experience and that the hell it puts you through is almost unmatched by any other bad experience in life. Just not something to be made light of, I felt. I feel sort of sorry for this Monica Lewis, to have to be M's wife is bad enough karma, but his mistress must be much worse. None of the respect of the wife, not as many of the perks, and to have to undergo this, plus you know she'll get dumped in the end. And we thought he fucked up our lives -- she's the biggest victim of all! She just hasn't realized it yet. But she will.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 20:20:46 (GMT) From: red butler Email: None To: Joy Subject: It's all in poor taste, Joy Message:

I understand. I struck a nerve. That's what it's all about, making people think. I must comment about the 'casual' and 'callous tone.' This is a perfect description. Only it better describes M than me. But you actually got it. I'm pleased. Now the 'fantasize' part of it: OK, it is a fictional vignette and I made the scenario up, so I guess there is an element of 'fantasy' in it. Somehow, your saying it implies my taking some sort of smarmy pleasure in another's suffering. It IS smarmy. But I do not derive ANY pleasure from it, other than the sheer pleasure of creation. I rarely like to explain my 'art' (snicker) but I also don't want to be misunderstood. I have a world of sympathy for this woman and deeply understand the internal strife and pain an abortion can cause. 'Biggest victim of them all.' True I guess, in many ways. Nice talkin' to ya Joy, you take care. -red

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 22:34:22 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Susan Subject: Susan-check post for next movie idea.....nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 22:29:28 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Susan Subject: Professional escort?Our next scene in the movie... Message:

Susan- I'm surprised you didn't respond sooner, but I've scooped you again, on possibly the best scene in 'THE MOVIE'.... Better than the cigarette scene,this scene follows poor michael trying to have a serious dialog with m about the possibities of procuring the services of a...well...lady of the night.... I don't get it. The guy has a gorgeous wife who would literally doing anything for him, kids,mansion,servants,money...you name it....and he's not satisfied...so now he thinks about a..well...lady of the night... And to top it off, he travels all over the world telling everyone else that they will never be happy doing the things in the world (that he does in ten-fold), but that he and the 'K' will show them how to be happy.... I can see the 'hooker procurement' scene, followed by a quick cut to a 'program scene' in another country the next night, where m has rushed to give the premies 'satsang' about how to be happy, and that nothing in the world will make them happy... CUT to the next scene, where m, on a cell phone,( maybe between curtain calls after the satsang,amidst cries to come out and WOW the premies with a little dancing or Krishna/mala/flute/song and dance routine),where he gets word from a close advisor that the 'procurement' has happened (this would of course have some special code-word attached to it, like Project Gopi, or Project Night-Hook), then CUT to m with the 'procurement'.... So,it's: 1-procurement talk (in hushed tones) 2-satsang scene at big hall in London 3-offstage in mala with cell phone(m looks bored with the on-stage activities, but instantly lights up exuberantly when told of the success of Project Night-Hook) scene 4-procurement scene 5-'back at home' scene in malibu with wife and kids I think it should have quick CUTS in between each scene. Should we call the movie 'The Emporers Clothes' or 'The little guru who called wolf'? La-ex

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 14:06:10 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: la-ex Subject: My Vote Is 'Maha' (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:58:46 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Lesley Subject: Lesley, did you ever talk about your suspicions? Message:

I take it from what you said that you didn't feel like you could mention what you had heard, for fear of being labeled 'in your mind' sort of thing? I agree, the most disgusting part of this is that some of his own followers were his victims. The people he was supposed to be 'taking care of' and being concerned about, were the ones he used. When you met Monica Lewis, are you saying that she was an attractive woman, who had some kind of an exhaulted position in the Maharaji-cult world? And by 'leading premie men around by the nose,' do you mean just because she was attractive, or because they knew she had some kind of close relationship with Maharaji (she was a very special PAM, wasn't she?)

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 21:39:33 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Joe Subject: I've sent a reply but it doesn't seem to have Message:

worked, as it was quite long, I will wait to see if it comes up before trying again.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:31:15 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Joe Subject: Maharaji's Sexual/ Chemical Addictions -- A Survey Message:

Hi Joe, I never would have imagined Maharaji would involve himself in these activities either. I didn't find out about them until I encountered EPO. I was under the wrong impression, obviously, that Maharaji was the Lord and didn't need anything but K to get high or satisfy his needs. I did rationalize away his opulent lifestyle, yet that other stuff, taking dope, being an alcholic, womanizer...nope, I never would have dreamed it. I feel bad for those women M exploited, and I wonder what their ages were at the times he sexually exploited them. Shame on you Maharaji...you are boundless all right, you haven't got one boundary you won't cross. You bastard cult leader! Ahh, that felt good. Be well, Joe, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 20:28:08 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Another blond Message:

In 1991 or so, when I was still a premie, I met up with a woman premie friend from the 70's. We had lived in the same ashram. I had not seen her for years. She was blond and very attractive (if you like that sort of thing). She lived in San Diego in the 80's. She was the first person to tell me about Marilyn's indiscretion and the marriage problems. She went on to tell me that she had been informed in the mid-80's that Maharaji wanted more children and Marilyn was too old to have any. She expressed disapointment that she was never called upon to perform this service. It would have been her dream come true, she said. At the time, I was shocked and I thought this particular premie had gone wacko. I certainly dismissed her story about the call for more children. But now I am wondering if premie Blonds were actually approached with this particular 'excuse' for the guru's new desires. I agree with Lesley's feelings about this latest info.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:09:29 (GMT) From: DeProGram Anand Ji Email: not given To: all Subject: And lead me not unto temptation Message:

Like they say all power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely! So it should come as no surprise that a fat pimply adolescent who couldn't have gotten any booty in a womens prison with a handful of pardons took advantage of innocent peoples irrational beliefs about him. Knowing that anyone of his follows would do ANYTHING for him without question created the optimal conditions for the abuse of power! It was inevitable. To be fair I wonder how many of us, if we found ourselves in M's position would be able to resist the temptation to abuse our power. Come on children let's be honest! Not to many, I would stake my life on it. We gave him that power, we placed him above ourselves because we wanted to be saved by somthing larger than ourselves. We refused to stop believing until it became obvious that he was a fraud. Our complicity was a part of his corruption, those that continue to comply continue to enable him.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 17:10:09 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: DeProGram Anand Ji Subject: And lead me not unto temptation Message:

To be fair I wonder how many of us, if we found ourselves in M's position would be able to resist the temptation to abuse our power. Come on children let's be honest! Not to many, I would stake my life on it. What's that they say about with added power goes added responsbility? But see, we were never in that position of power, we were victims of the power he abused. I think it's specious to suggest that others would have done the same thing. It undermines the damage he did to suggest he was just the wrong person in the wrong place. I think that's nonsense. We gave him that power, we placed him above ourselves because we wanted to be saved by somthing larger than ourselves. I only gave him the allegience I did because I was idealistic and perhaps gullible, and believed him. Maharaji was already portraying himself as God long before I ever heard of him. I just made the mistake of believing him, which I freely admit. Maharaji, on the other hand, admits and takes responsibility for nothing, and never has. our complicity was a part of his corruption, those that continue to comply continue to enable him. True, but only half the story. You have to understand how a cult works -- you have to understand how it's possible to give up your own independent ability to judge when you believe in someone like Maharaji. He created a web and we got caught in it. Perhaps our ability to get out of the Maharaji cult, as well as our misfortune of getting involved in the first place, was just a combination of good, and really bad,luck.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:00:14 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: DeProGram Anand Ji Subject: And lead me not unto temptation Message:

We gave him that power, we placed him above ourselves because we wanted to be saved by somthing larger than ourselves. We refused to stop believing until it became obvious that he was a fraud. Our complicity was a part of his corruption, those that continue to comply continue to enable him. Whilst I agree on this point generally, I have to say that when I walked into the trip aged 17 in 1974, he was already on a full God trip and I had not given him that power. In fact I was merely a weak victim of the persuasiveness of the whole trip - whoever's fault it was for having empowered him into that position. I recognise that people (myself included) who have been abused and had their lives wasted STILL are seeking closure so many years on. Why? Because when an abused person sees their abuser continuing to get away with using their power over others without having to answer for his crimes, they still feel inferior, hurt, powerless and angry. I had a long chat with a friend who wondered why I/we still carry such a 'bitter' grudge against Maharji, whilst someone he knew, who had been sexually abused as a child by a relative, had no need to even think about it any more. Was this that due to this person's ability to 'move on' -did they have the knack of just putting things behind them? No, this was too simple an idea. He answered the question himself when he pointed out that this person felt totally superior to the pathetic person this relative had actually become in their life. Similarly I believe that we can only heal when Maharaji has been effectively disempowered. That is why it is so urgent that it become known exactly the way he is, and that the past history, warts and all, is literally shoved in the faces of those who continue to blindly support him, until they wake up. There is actually a very urgent case, as far as I can see, for an extremely proactive campain to set the record straight. There is a lot more that can be done. The most significant step so far has obviously been Michael Dettmers frank and welcome revelations. It occurs to me that most premies and ex-premies alike, have been, for the last years, primarily preoccupied in rebuilding their lives financially after the extreme cult years passed. Only now, with possibly a little financial base having been established, can we afford to turn our time and attention to the important and neglected task of addressing this great 'wrong' of we we were so much a part. Maharaji says 'incredibly dangerous, this stuff is….. Shooting your mouth off is not innocent' Life is short. Our integrity is at stake. The only thing that is 'dangerous' and that we could possibly be deemed at the end of time as being 'guilty' of, is having NOT TOLD the truth about Maharaji and Knowledge and having allowed him to get away with his continued revisionism and avoidance of offering victims just restitution.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 16:57:32 (GMT) From: Mili Email: None To: Patrick Subject: And lead me not unto temptation Message:

Victims? Restitution? Boy, are you frothing at the mouth for someone who received Knowledge due to Maharaji's efforts and still admittedly continues to enjoy it...

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 23:31:35 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: Mili Subject: And lead me not unto temptation Message:

Yes, I probably sound like I'm frothing -but it's more enthusiasm that you detect than froth. The only intoxicating liquid that fuels me is the nectar and I assure you, none of that produces froth. It always sounded so disturbing when premies would slurp and slop doing the nectar technique before they gave satsang - it got amplified by the microphone into this resonant loud bodily function type noise which seemed so innappropriate before speaking about such a 'holy' subject.. Listen, I learned piano from a bullying music teacher who hit me hard over the hands with a ruler-didn't give me the chance to sing in the choir etc. that I wanted. He put me off learning- for a while. He didn't own music fortunately , so when I decided to get into learning piano again I taught myself. Sure I resented him for his abuse as a master - I had the last laugh when I went back to my old school where he is still a lowly music teacher. I told him I had just finished recording my latest album with a full orchestra and large choir. There was some satisfaction in that. Now he respects me and we're friends again. Listen Mili -I resent the fact that because of Maharaji's demands, I not only didn't enjoy sex from 17-25, but but also because I couldn't do the other things I wanted. He wanted those sacrifices - I made them sincerely. Forget it...I know that it's pointless to expect any empathy on this. I was stupid to have been so determined to exactly as he recommended. I should have loosened up and screwed around , smoked dope and done whatever I wanted like he did. At least it would have been more fun. Yea, I got rid of the bath water -but I think I still have the baby.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 03:54:56 (GMT) From: kapiladev Email: qwerty@pdai.com To: Everyone Subject: ex-premie ranch Message:

we are getting a ranch in southern utah and want to invite some ex premies to join us .we also want suggestions for a name for the ranch . we see it as sort of a zen ranch .we see it as a place where those who were betrayed can find peace and share brotherly love with fellows who are seekers .

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 14:28:25 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: kapiladev Subject: Will there be a bar? (nt) Message:

glug glug

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 15:30:26 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: AJW Subject: What about smokers?.......nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:38:17 (GMT) From: SUCHaBANANA Email: None To: Everyone Subject: EXCLUSIVE! Marolyn: not me, not Nouri, but fatboy Message:

[This post is partially in response to Cynthia's comments about the curious ashram confessions of young women who were celibate, but who proudly admitted they'd have sex with Maharaji in a heartbeat, if asked.} I've been saving this blissful and enlightening chitchat until now; here it is: In the premie house, Marolyn used to give me a very nice, lingering, premie sister full-body hug in the morning, wearing a sheer little nightie. What a sweetheart and total FOX she was, too! I used to have to pull away after a few seconds -- much too arousing for this devoted celibate brother. [Same for roommate Michael Nouri.] Anyway, once Marolyn was driving me in her VW microbus over to Divine Sales to get me some presentable clothes (tie and jacket) to wear for playing music onstage for m. at the Embassy Hotel (I think that was the name). The subject got around to relationships. Lots of premie guys used to come over to the house and kinda flirt with Marolyn (she was also a flight attendant for American Airlines at the time). Anyway, I asked Marolyn if she ever considered having a 'relationship'. She told me that she had been in a serious relationship and living with a guy, but broke up with him when she received knowledge. She said she wasn't interested in having a relationship right now, but that she knew in her heart that someday she would be married and have a family. HOWEVER, she said she was NOT even going to think about having a relationship, or marriage -- unless Maharaji himself personally told her to. At the time, I thought, 'What devotion!' Then she selected the least disgusting stuff at Divine Sales (most of their stuff was ragged hand-me-downs) for me to wear as an outfit -- she had very good taste in clothes and matching things together. While I was changing my pants behind a short screen, she looked over - and I kinda got embarrassed - SUCHaBANANA! After Millenium, I ran into a premie friend (David M.) who had an obvious crush on Marolyn. We were cruising around in a VW beetle (a lot of us drove VWs in those days), and he happened to mention that Marolyn was now serving as a flight attendant on Maharaji's plane. I flashed on what Marolyn had told me and immediately announced to David and the other premies in the car that Marolyn was going to marry Maharaji. I don't know why I said it, but I had this strange intuition. [still have such intuition, actually] Mind you, this was at a time when nobody really committed to the cult was formally having a relationship - kind of taboo. Also, nobody really considered that Maharaji was going to get married at that young age - if at all! These premies all had a good laugh - at my expense. Then, they told lots of other premies, too, and when I got to satsang that night, everybody started whispering and giggling when I walked in. Bongo premie! A few months later, I opened up the morning newspaper and - voila! Photo and article about the Denver wedding. [I still have the clipping] Then, David said, 'Oh, I guess you were right, man.' Later, he went to the Sunset Blvd. residence to visit Marolyn. She was by the pool, sunning herself in a bikini. Anyway, they had tea and chatted, until m. himself showed up. 'Hey, what's this guy doing here?' m. demanded. Marolyn explained that he was a friend, but David instantly felt very confronted and uncomfortable. So, he left - and never presumed to visit the wife of the Lord of the Universe again. Anyway, to further relate this to your comments: in the ashrams, yeah, it was just like nunneries for the premie sisters. (You know, like now you're married to Jesus. [not the same for the straight guys]) Instead of the cross or a painting of the Lord husband Jesus, there was m.'s picture everywhere, in every single room of the houses. The vow to m., the bowing to m., the singing of arti to m., with the sisters swinging the arti tray, gazing adoringly at his giant Krishna costume photo, and singing passionately 'you are my all, you are my all to me... Wherever I look your face is before me, your golden love melts my chocolate m&m's', etc. Naturally, it got a bunch of lonely and sex-starved young ashram women fantasizing. I heard premie ashram women put down handsome premie guys, and when I asked them hypothetically, 'Well, what about Maharaji, then?' 'If he asked, I'd fuck him in a second,' was a typical response (even though m. was by now married). To me, that's truly indicative of how deep and sick the indoctrination by the cult really was -- it just totally screwed up people's thinking. Gropies and gurupies, indeed! m. actively promoted this conduct and even heavier concepts, kinkier twists on Hindu mythology - the constant Krishna and gopi allusions -- e.g. like the Krishna Lila dance at Millenium where Krishna (m.) manifests and does it [via dance] with about 40 pretty gopi (milkmaid) devotees. This constant parallel of Krishna and his gopis was encouraged and referred to often by m. and the cult. The crown and mala he wore - the whole revolting game of 'dance with us, dance with us' at every festival. Perhaps that's how PAMs were able to justify/excuse any alleged indiscretions with gopi-devotees, too. After all, HE's the Lard of the Universe, right? Ultimate girls' ashram fantasy: Do it with the Lard! Remember, it was the 'boys' ashram' and 'girls' ashram, not 'men' and 'women' -- we were just children - he was the LARD! And when he danced wearing the Krishna crown and mala -- what an exposed load of Lard it really was! Who was The Concept Maker? Was it the mahatmas [instructors], the stupid and confused premies, the hateful ex-premies, our own diabolical minds? No, it was the Giver of the Gift of the conceptual shit. Now, thank heaven, by the grace of the real Almighty Lord within us all, this accumulated pile of shit is being returned to sender. Many premies, much shit! Universal law of paraphysics -- Karma of Greedy Guru. Notice to all Premies: Simply mark your guru-concept SHIT: Return to Sender. Many premies, much shit, indeed!!! This Knowledge is now FREE - no strings attached whatsoever. My dear brothers and sisters: Thank you for the opportunity to share such blissful satsang -- holy company and discourse of TRUTH! Blessings to all the ex-premies... Time for a nap again for this lil' old swami. I could use foot massage now. Ah, what bliss! Peace,

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 16:23:48 (GMT) From: Cynthia - Yikes! Email: None To: SUCHaBANANA Subject: EXCLUSIVE! Marolyn: not me, not Nouri, but fatboy Message:

such, What a post! When I got to DECA, I worked and roomed with the Krishna Lila dancer who played Radha (sp?). She told me that Maharaji had once called her Radha to her face while she was taking notes at one of his meetings....her main job was to follow M everywhere he went in the building, and take notes. No tape recorder, written notes. She was very petite, but had an olive complexion and very dark, long hair, beautiful by any standards, and the largest breasts I've ever seen on a woman. A good friend, too. As time went on, and M constantly came to the warehouse and later the complex, after hours, a bunch of us ''gopies'' would sit around and read from a book of poetry (I have a photocopy of it, but I can't remember the author) between Radha and Krishna. It was hot, hot, hot, for horny ashram sisters who believed the only love of any kind, would manifest only through M. This was well beyond Catholic nuns...it was sicko stuff, because in the back of my mind, I never found him attractive in the least!! However, I must add that it was always my impression that men could be gopies, too. Anyone know anything about that? Love, Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:19:12 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: It's A Dirty Job But... Message:

Report from video feed from hell: Sat through about half an hour. Hindi with English translation from recent event in Katmandu, Nepal. All he fucking talked about is how dangerous the mind is. Fuck this guy. He's totally morally, intellectually and spiritually bankrupt. Steve

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 23:42:46 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Everyone Subject: My response to Joe and others Message:

Joe asked if the stories about Maharaji being homophobic as reflected in his offensive jokes about gay people were true. Maharaji often made, and loved to hear, offensive jokes about anything including gay people. It was generally known that certain members of the residence staff as well as some of the mahatmas were gay. The Hindi term he used for a gay person was “gandu” (spelling?) and he sometimes made these people the butt of his gandu jokes. I certainly have the impression that Maharaji is homophobic. However, at that time, no one in Maharaji’s inner circle nor most of the people with whom he came in regular contact were engaged in healthy and meaningful sexual relationships of any kind (at least ones that were publicly acknowledged). Thus, the overall environment was sexually dysfunctional which added impetuous and sting to the constant barrage of hurtful and offensive jokes. Joe and several others have asked if the widespread belief that Maharaji has had numerous affairs with premies over the years is true. Beginning in 1985, Maharaji began a series of affairs with women who were premies. His move in this direction was prompted by his marriage difficulties in 1984. Although he and Marolyn came to some understanding and resolution over their problems, I do not know if part of that resolution included an agreement that he would be free to engage in extramarital affairs. I know that, from Maharaji’s perspective, Marolyn was certainly not free to engage in extramarital affairs. At that time, Maharaji and I were particularly close and he told me of his desire to experience other women. I was not shocked by his desire nor did I have a negative assessment about it. In fact, I thought that it might put him more in touch with his humanity which could only be a positive development as far as I was concerned. However, I strongly advised him not to get involved with premies. To me, this could potentially bring trouble for him and create difficulties for the women as well. Instead, I suggested that he engage the services of a professional escort, and I offered to make the arrangements for him. At first he seemed open to the idea but soon thereafter he decided against it. He told me that there was a particular premie woman he had in mind, and he asked me to arrange that they meet, which I did. Soon, thereafter, he asked me to arrange a meeting with another woman. In the meantime, the first person was left high and dry wondering what was going on. He cut off communication with her and her only recourse was to contact me. I now found myself in the unpleasant circumstance of dealing with situations he created by his lust and careless disregard for the hurt and confusion it inflicted on his victims. After three such incidents, I told him that his reckless behavior was backfiring, and that I did not have the time to take care of the negative consequences it produced. He responded by agreeing that I had more important things to handle for him than procuring women and that he would now take care of that task himself, meaning that he simply delegated the task to someone who was more amenable to it. He continued to have numerous affairs of which I am aware and it was not too long thereafter that he began a more serious affair with Monica Lewis that, according to my sources, continues to this day.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 15:13:00 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Rawat and these women Message:

the emotional devastation that Rawat inviting devotees to sleep with him and then cutting them off would wreak is trememndous. How do you say 'no' to the Perfect Master ( the maker of all things created ? ). This really shows how ugle a person he is, and how uncaring. To use his 'devotees' as a sexual outlet and then cut off his 'special attention'. How would those women be able to ever proccess what happened to them? Disgusting.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 18:32:00 (GMT) From: Thank Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: You for your honesty-nt Message:

sfg

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 16:57:47 (GMT) From: Brutus Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Did you add 'PIMP' career on your CV, Michael?(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 18:18:22 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Brutus Subject: brutus aint gerry, btw Message:

I sign my rants and I'm over it.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 20:06:06 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: gerry Subject: brutus aint gerry, btw Message:

Sounds like BJORN to me. What do you think, ger? Marianne

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 09:02:24 (GMT) From: This 1997 email I got .. Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: from a premie friend, is probably is true then... Message:

Sat, Apr 19, 1997 It's not a well-guarded secret that Maharaji likes a drink or two now and then. Apparently his poison is Scotch though I can't say with any certainty whether he prefers a single malt or a blend. Sometimes he feels it necessary to dry out and so requests that no tempting bottles be stocked where he is staying. He also regularly smokes cigarettes (brand unknown). On the subject of affairs, he has a long term mistress by the name of Monica Lewis. A couple of years ago she put the squeeze on Maharaji, saying he'd better leave Marolyn for her permanently or she'd blow the whistle. A damage control squad was able to talk her out of her despondent threats and, the abortion notwithstanding, she seems content with her Number two woman role. Of course she's not allowed in close proximity to Maharaji when Marolyn's around. As for affairs, Maharaji's intended conquests are solicited surrepticiously by Patrick (his personal assistant). It is suggested to them that Maharaji would like to meet them in a hotel room. This allows for plausible deniability should there be the slightest misunderstanding. In this category there are, at last count, about a dozen predominantly blonde-haired gopis. They seem to be dutifully silent about their experiences. All this is nothing out of the ordinary for a charismatic powerful needy fellow.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 18:24:43 (GMT) From: add to best of forum? Email: None To: This 1997 email I got .. Subject: seems like it fits in with the MD section-nt Message:

sdfg

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 00:47:55 (GMT) From: Joe Email: joger02@aol.com To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My response to Joe and others Message:

Thank you, Michael. It's great that this can come out in the open. I have heard generally that Maharaji had a fairly crude and offensive sense of humor at times. I suppose it didn't help that no one around him was about to tell him what an insensitive jerk he is and to tell him that he or she was offended. Even when Dennis told me about the offensive jokes, he seemed mildly embarrassed. And I guess it was only a matter of time before Maharaji realized that premies, who adored and worshipped him, and/or believed he was the incarnation of god, were readily available sexual objects for him to play with. This has been a typical behavior of others in his position. Unfortunately, it's the followers who end up getting hurt. The fact that he engaged in sexual affairs with his followers is damning enough, (as well as reckless and stupid), but the fact that he would then blow someone off and go onto the next victim is appalling, but right in line with his self-centeredness and magalomania. What a creep. Have you ever heard of any of the women Maharaji had sexual affairs with suing him, or demanding a settlement to keep quiet? Also, is it true, as I have heard, that Maharaji prefers blondes? The more I hear, the more embarrassing it is to think about the fact that I once followed somebody who is such a jerk.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 00:57:13 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Joe Subject: My response to Joe and others Message:

Joe, I don't know of any law suits or settlement agreements but, then again, I haven't been around for a long time. The evidence suggests that he prefers blondes. Michael

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:06:41 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Wow, what a weird position to be in..... Message:

What could you possibly say to a premie who had had a sexual affair with Maharaji, who had come to you because Maharaji wouldn't talk to her? Did you tell them to remember holy name? (Just kidding.) What an appalling situation to be in? What happened to the women who got used and then ignored by Maharaji? Did any of them leave the cult? Did any end up in mental institutions? I'm serious. I personally can't imagine, given the programming we all had about who Maharaji was supposed to be, that it wouldn't hugely mess up your your self-esteem, and even your sanity to go through something like that. You say that Maharaji had a double standard when it came to his marriage, that it was okay for him to have affairs, but not Marolyn. To your knowledge, did Marolyn ever assert herself about this? If the Monica Lewis affair we have all heard about is continuing, I assume Marolyn has resigned herself to it. Do you know if Maharaji's kids know about this? Do you know if these affairs have caused premies to question their involvement with Maharaji?

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:39:28 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Joe Subject: Wow, what a weird position to be in..... Message:

Joe, Of the three women I referred to, I can't honestly remember what I told them. I remained respectful and sensitive to their concerns, however, and they knew they could contact me if they needed to do so. To my knowledge, none of them ended up in mental institutions and I don't know if any of them eventually left the cult. I have no knowledge about the consequences, if any, regarding Maharaji's numerous other affairs. I have no idea what or if Marolyn or the kids think or know about Maharaji's affair with Monica. Michael

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 03:34:29 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Sexual exploitation: Jim Jones and M Message:

Michael: Once again, I am horrified to read about M's behavior towards premies. And once again, M's behavior mirrors that of Jim Jones. Jones was married throughout the time he headed Peoples Temple. He had 5 children. His wife was a revered and highly respected member of the community. They were often referred to as Father and Mother. Although my memory is hazy about exactly when it began to occur, Jones had lovers in the PT community for about the last 15 years of its existence. He fathered a child by one of the members -- Grace Stoen. Grace was married at the time too. There were several other women in high church positions who were also his lovers. He felt it was his perogative to have sex with whomever he wanted. And given that the PT members thought he was God, they were not inclined to resist his advances, even if they were not interested. The affairs were common knowledge among PT members and were a source of great pain to Jones' wife. These relationships fall into the category of sexual exploitation. When you begin to see that M's behavior is so similar to that of the worst case cult leader, you have to start wondering about M too. Marianne

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:15:39 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Exactly! Sikh,Sikh,Sikh! This is TOO much! (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 17:35:12 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Marianne Subject: That reminds me of a conversation I had Message:

in 1996 with a devoted premies, some time before I left ... I knew about m's affairs and Monica's role, and we were discussing the issue. She would say she wasn't shocked by this, and that if she'd had a chance to have an affair with m, she'd be delighted to. I had a hard time understanding her opinion, and to realize how badly she was fucked up in her own personal relationships. That was one of the thing that helped me to realize I really was involved in something wrong.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 17:29:29 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Sexual exploitation: The way of the world Message:

Marianne, As many married couples do after 20 years or so of marriage, my wife and I have gone to a counselor to try to work out some kinks in our relationship. We are both at that 'change-o-life age', she is gearing up to go out and work full-time now that the kids are older and more capable to taking care of themselves, and I am facing career choices that are more and more limited as the years tick by, so I am searching out ways to be self-employed. Real life stuff with real life consequences. The counselor we see is a guy who has a yang-yin symbol on his card, claims to be using Buddhist-related methods, so we both felt comfortable with him. So anyway, this mellow Buddhist counselor and I were talking the other day on the phone. I never used to ask others for personal advice before this, only now that my wife says we need counseling have I resorted to talking to others about very personal things. I have found that most counselors have more problems than I do.. And here is the punchline to this post: The counselor, the person we went to for marriage counseling, says to me that I ought to find a girlfriend on the side! This is not an option in my repitoire,I am just not made that way. Hence, the way of the world. When a marriage counselor advises clients to seek outside sexual and/or romantic diversion, what has civilization come to? What happened to 'thou shalt not commit adultery'? What happened to the New Testament guidance that adultery is the only legitimate reason for divorce? (I would imagine that extreme abuse would fit into that definition too). This is my life, or a big part of it. Maybe you and I are just old fashioned fuddy-duddies, eh Marianne? Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:12:15 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: shp Subject: Sexual exploitation: The way of the world Message:

Just had to pop in and read this thread. Sandy, A lot of therapists are unethical, sounds like you ran into one! How having an affair would make your relationship with your wife better (which was the reason you went into therapy) is beyond me. That's pretty nuts. My husband is a marriage and family therapist and rule one is that people have to honor their agreements. If the agreement is to be monogamous, no lovers on the side--period! It's pretty sick reading that M is into 'doing' premie women (to use a Dr. Laura term). Michael Dettmers is a veritable font of information, all very good in seeing M for what he is.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:36:18 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: shp Subject: Your counselor Message:

Hi Sandy, It sounds to me like your counselor is a bit of a jerk. Telling you to go out and have an affair doesn't seem like good advice. Did he give the same advice to your wife? How does she feel about it all? I'd cash him in for a christian counselor if I were you. Anth the pagan

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 14:39:52 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: AJW Subject: Counseling session Message:

Yep, he said to take two before bed and call him in the morning. That's a joke, but not far from the truth. I had called him on a particularly frustrating day and his response was something like 'sounds like what you need is a girlfriend!', with a sort of half laugh.... Shit man, I don't care how many men do it, I know there is such a thing as marriage, that it is a sacred bond, and that it is possible to attain such a relationship with each partner being like one of those paisleys in the yang-yin symbol, in total harmony on all levels. If people could just get laid whenever they wanted to by whoever they wanted, like some folks we know, there would probably be less war in the world. But there would also probably be more dysfunctional kids running around confused and growing up to perpetuate the cycle, and what would ensue would, I think, be worse than nationalistic wars. There must be another way to 'spread peace in the world'.... Sandy the Happy Peaceful Warrior

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:54:31 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: shp Subject: Another old fashioned fuddy-duddy Message:

Hi Sandy, I agree that many counselors have their own problems. Did you ever tell him about your reaction to his suggestion? I don't think that you have to feel passive in your interaction. Maybe he was wondering if you just needed to know that taking that option might be ok in some situations. I guess that's what you're objecting to. But you didn't give us the context of his suggestion - a lot of people project, and perhaps that's what your counselor is doing. I've always enjoyed the 'sounding board' aspect of a counselor and their 'objectivity'. They are usually people who have their own subjectivities too though, IMO. What matters is your choice, not their advice. But you know that. Anna

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 05:08:12 (GMT) From: sh[ Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Another old fashioned fuddy-duddy Message:

It's an oxymoron situation, Anna. A marriage counselor advising someone who has come to him in need of marriage counseling, and the advise, or sounding, is completely contradictory to the marriage agreement....oh, how modern and 21st century! But it is bullshit. I think our insides knows it.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 05:18:32 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: shp Subject: Another old fashioned fuddy-duddy Message:

I've never been married, nor had children, and I don't know what your situation is, nor what your counselor knows about your situation. An awkward sentence, but I'm sure you'll understand.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 14:43:25 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Stonor Subject: You don't need a weatherman Message:

to know which way the wind blows.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:22:25 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: shp Subject: Counselors are not supposed to give out advice... Message:

Hi Sandy, I worries my that any therapist would advise you to do anything, especially to have an extra-marital affair. I've been through a lot of therapists throughout the years and have learned one thing: they are not supposed to give advice, but to assist you in whatever problem/difficulty you may be having, be it marital, emotional, etc. One of my sisters had a therapist tell her (because she was so depressed) that maybe she should attempt suicide!! There's a lot of very good practioners out there, but there's also a pack of roving assholes who call themselves counselors. Be careful--and remember anyone you see is your employee, therefore, you can hire them and fire them. Be well, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 17:53:42 (GMT) From: Liz Email: None To: shp Subject: Authenticity and accountability Message:

Dear Sandy, Yes, the world is getting crazier in my opinion - or at least people in it. I want you to know that you are doing the right and authentic thing. Be true to yourself and your wife if you want to stay in an authentic and happy relationship. More power to you and your wife and family, Liz

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:23:10 (GMT) From: sucha Email: None To: Liz Subject: Dump that counselor, Sandy. That's too weird! (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 00:01:16 (GMT) From: jondon Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My response to Joe and others Message:

I believe that M is gay, or at least has experimented. He that doth protest too much....

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 00:48:53 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: jondon Subject: No way. Message:

Experimentation, maybe. But he is such a huge jerk that I don't want him on my team, if you know what I mean. ::))

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 15:41:38 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Joe Subject: No way. Message:

Joe: I have a hunch there are plenty of jerks on both teams. What we need is a reliable 'Jerk Alert.' :-) --Scott

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:00:55 (GMT) From: jondon Email: None To: Joe Subject: No way. Message:

Hey, I resemble that remark. We could maybe use him as a designated hitter. They are usually switch hitters. (for you blokes: switch hitter = hits from both sides of the wicket)

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 22:13:06 (GMT) From: suchabanda Email: None To: Everyone Subject: from British Press: 2 accounts of m.'s darshan! Message:

'HE LOOKED ME IN THE EYES' (sniff, sniff)! 'Devotees traveled to London from as far away as Poland for a chance to meet M... 'I died and went straight to heaven,' said Kate Bryiska of Poland. 'I froze to death. But it was worth it. He's the best.' Mario Canosa, from Sardinia, broke down in tears after meeting M. 'He looked me in the eyes,' Canosa said.' [Incidentally, M. in this instance, was Sir Paul McCartney. I guess darshan is in the eyes of the beholder. So, what generated the gurupie darshan experience? That little concept-maker inside -- assisted by some very heavy cult brain-washing, of course.] Food for thought, huh?! Peace,

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:20:21 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: suchabanda Subject: from British Press: 2 accounts of m.'s darshan! Message:

Only thing is, Paul goes to work at his studio every day on the train with all the other Joe Blows and he knows he's just human. I think it can be a big thing actually meeting someone for real when you've only seen them on TV all your life and worshipped them from afar. It's a kind of darshan experience.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:52:11 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Darshan in M's head Message:

I think icky boy Maharaji is so sick for playing that darshan crap. You mentioned about meeting someone who you have only seen on TV or whatever in person.... I had a very similar experience. I very much like the music of a Canadian group, Blue Rodeo. So much so, I drove 1233 miles to see them in Victoria(though Jim still thinks it was to meet him, so don't tell him anything). Anyway...they played the three day Rootsfest up there. I volunteered, worked the whole time and got a backstage pass and got the meet the band. And what impressed me the most was they all thanked me. One even wouldn't let me leave - asked me to hang around since I drove so far. Very human, very real. Not quite M's manner, eh? He is a sick sick man.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:07:28 (GMT) From: c.g. Email: None To: Daneane Subject: I had darshan with Jim! Message:

That was me that mentioned popstar Paul wasn't it? Maybe Dave did as well...any hoo.. I like Blue Rodeo too and that was a very heart warming story. What a long way to drive. I travelled a few miles myself to have darshan with Jim. ( I was on holiday and Jim knew it though! Jim and his lovely girlfriend gave me my first joint in about 30 years......When we left his house my partner went into a gas station and the guy said how's your evening and my middle-aged middle class partner said 'I've just had my first joint in 30 years and the guy said 'Cool man!' Curious George

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:21:43 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: c.g. Subject: Precious Message:

I bumped into Ringo and Barbara in a fairly empty restaurant a few years ago. I think your Jim darshan experience beats my Ringo one, though. He wouldn't even take off his sunglasses. Steve

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:15:35 (GMT) From: Curious Geoge Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: I had a darshan experience with Sir Paul Message:

Way back in the 1960's I was in a T.V studio with Paul. I had been invited as a 15 year old fan to be one of the screaming audience. Funny, I did not count being one of the audience with hundreds of other screaming fans as being a darshan experience on the other hand when I walked around the studio and saw Paul and shouted out something to him to which he replied, looking back, this felt like a darshan experience much in the same way as when I went all the way to the Malibu residence to dig flower beds and he looked and smiled at me as he drove off down the hill. Any other thoughts on this? Darshan seems to have to be a one on one experience ie touching those little chubby lotus feet. C.G. (Now you could probably guess I'm female as I couldn't imagine males doing this... Although for 'spiritual' purposes they do....ie feet kissing. I did see guys crying when John Lennon died though.)

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 21:14:42 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Curious Geoge Subject: I cried too... Message:

Ironically, two of the three worst Mithrasmases of my life were 1972 and 1980: In 1972 I quit as lead guitarist in a band John was producing on Apple Records (right after Imagine), because the manager was stealing most of the money that was intended for the musicians. In 1980 I heard the news that John had been murdered, then got a call to go on tour. The whole trip was miserable -- his Christmas song was in heavy rotation on all the music stations; it was so depressing -- like a part of my youth and innocence had died, too. The asshole rock musicians I was with were totally insensitive. I ended up ditching them in Washington. I also think people should celebrate John's life (and birthday), not commemorate or mourn his murder day. Peace,

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 05:00:17 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: such Subject: I cried too... Message:

I remember when he died; when was he born, such?

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:30:43 (GMT) From: Oliver Email: None To: Stonor Subject: October 9, 1940 (nt) Message:

October 9, 1940

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 07:57:48 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Oliver Subject: Thanks Oliver! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 23:57:17 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: suchabanda Subject: British Press: m.'s darshan!/How 'bout Elvis? Message:

Such-it's funny that you relate that story, because I was just remembering the other day a similar one. In the late 70's I was talking to a sister who was ready to move into the ashram, after 'graduating' from the premie house we were both living in. She said that she would gladly 'die for maharaji'. She made it clear that she totally believed it, and that it was a measure of her undying (no pun intended) devotion to the living perfect master. I replied that my older sister would have said the same thing about Elvis or the Beatles... She thought about it and said, 'yes, I would have too', although she was only sure, after my questioning abut ALL of the Beatles, that she would have died for Elvis, and John and Paul, but probably not for George, and definitely not for Ringo,,,, She joined the ashram for a year or two, left, and then left m as well... She told me years later that she always remembered our conversation and that she could never forget it....it gave her a major doubt that she could never quite get over.... I'm proud of the fact that I was able to provide that sister with a major 'drip' in her experience, that eventually crystallized into her freedom....

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 22:34:30 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: suchabanda Subject: from British Press: 2 accounts of m.'s darshan! Message:

Hi such, When I was 17 if I had looked into the eyes of any of the Beatles, but especially John or Paul, I would have had one of those, you know, spontaneous orgasims??!! My experience when I was around Maharaji a lot, with fewer than 5 to 10 people in the room was FEAR and distance, big boundaries, on HIS part. There's protocol around the LOTU. It was the group experience, that heehaw hindu style we're all one in the Lard atmosphere, that got me hooked on him. Living with ashram sisters was quite an unsubtle experience of who loved him the most, who followed the rules, acted properly, and of course, most admitted proudly that they'd fuck him if asked. Yuck, I can't believe I just wrote that. It true though, such. Charissma, whatever it is, is strong medicine. Be well, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 19:11:45 (GMT) From: Buzz Email: None To: Maharaji Subject: Maharaji,try practicing Holy Name Message:

Dear Maharaji, I hear things are not to good for you right now and your'e having a few problems with those premies of yours,don't worry,no need to get too serious about it,it's all a passing show,remember? What I would recommend for you is to remember what your Master said'always meditate and remember the Holy Name,it is the panacea for all your troubles'. .

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 21:04:15 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Buzz Subject: And, never leave room for doubt in your mind, Message:

Maharaji. You have to know by now the party's over in US and Europe. Most premies have internet access and I just know they are too curious not to look around here, despite your harsh agyas. Don't doubt that EPO will continue on and on. Now that your con is exposed, leave no doubt in your mind, we ex-premies aren't coming back. More and more of your ''lovers'' will be leaving too, if they haven't already. You just didn't doubt we would see through your hoax, betrayals, and bad behavior. But we found it all out, and more information about your ridiculous life will be exposed here. I bet you hate the US First Amendment about now. Leave no room for doubt, Maharaji, you will fade into obscurity, maybe not today, but soon. Youou owe a lot to the victims of Jagdeo, and countless others who gave you everything with not even one thank you and nothing in return. I suggest you try to find out if there is a conscience somewhere inside that skull of yours. Happy acting! Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 14:39:21 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: And fill out your bankers order... Message:

...made payable to me- Anthony Ginn- to help with my work on the planet. Anth- if you can't beat them, join them.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 16:09:36 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Just to make things clear Message:

I got a virus on my system few days ago. Not sure where it came from. But I suspect through a program that I downloaded, but then I remember recieving an e-mail with a blank attachement. The virus infected my e-mail and browser and apperantly attached itself to some e-mails that were sent. For those that got an infected e-mail, I want to make it clear that I did not attach the virus on purpose. I have managed to remove the virus from my system. The virus name is mtx_.exe and appears as an attachement to an e-mail as QI_TEST.EXE. Thanks to Brian and few others for alerting me to this and for their help. I am a mental case, but the last thing I want to do is case someone harm. Thank you. Salam pissed off

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:23:10 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Salam Subject: Thanks Salam (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 06:29:07 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Salam Subject: Just to make things a bit clearer (OT) Message:

The virus is actually called W95.MTX.dr and is embedded in the executable attachment. I can recommend Norton AntiVirus, which intercepted it on its way into me. Norton will also scan any downloading program as well as CDROMs, disks etc you put into your machine. MacAfee sucks, IMHO!!

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:48:20 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Bazza Subject: While were at it Message:

Did you read my e-mail to you in reply for the one you sent me, or did Norton throw the e-mai in the garbadge bin? I find Norton to heavey on using resources.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 16:15:44 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Salam Subject: About servers? OT Message:

Yeah that came separately. Im a bit involved with home stuff right now but I'll get back to you with all the answers you asked for. As far as Norton being resource hungry - I have Norton Systemworks 2000 installed and I have to agree that if you let all the modules run as they intend, it sucks the life out of your CPU time. Things were getting so bad, it would take 30 seconds just to open up a regular folder! I got a program called Registry Monitor, which shows you exactly what is going on with your registry moment by moment and I was gobstruck when I saw the almost constant key query requests demanded by Norton. By watching it and disabling all the unnecessary Norton running tasks, I got it sorted out. Now I only keep the AntiVirus running, anything else I call up when needed. And forget CrashGuard, that REALLY sucks the big one.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 17:42:00 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Salam Subject: Salam, it's just computer stuff Message:

Hi Salam, We haven't emailed eachother so I'm safe, but I don't believe you would intentionally hurt or cause harm. Good of you, though, to alert everyone. Computer stuff can be so crappy sometimes. I had a system crash a few months ago and it drove me mad! Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 18:03:10 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Salam, it's just computer stuff Message:

It's my reputation you know. I feel like a dork. Sheesh, I know who did it. It is rawat. Did not like me talking about him blocking my toilet. So he zapped me with his psychic powers. Man I spent a whole week stuffing around with my system, now I have to spend another just to make sure it is OK. But thank Cynthia for being kind. I appreciate it. Rawat, you boofhead, you can zap me as much as you want, you still suck. So there. Love you Salam

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 18:59:55 (GMT) From: Buzz Email: None To: Salam Subject: Salam, it's just computer stuff Message:

Hey Salam,man you should have your own show :)Johnny Carson's got nothing on you!

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 05:12:41 (GMT) From: Mr. Free Email: None To: Everyone Subject: How about the Denver Broncos Message:

Sometimes it's just good to forget all the stuff we take so seriously. Enjoy a football game or go tobbaggining or something. The Bronco's are God's team. Share the bliss.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 21:57:25 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Mr. Free Subject: Yes,feeling the bliss:Chiefs 20,geldings 7 (nt(ot Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:26:37 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: such Subject: GO RAIDERS.....(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 16:19:31 (GMT) From: Still in IHQ Denver Email: None To: Mr. Free Subject: I'm a Broncos fan..but not on this site! (ot) (nt) Message:

xx

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 06:48:04 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Mr. Free Subject: FUCK the Denver Broncos! and label OT, dude! (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:12:50 (GMT) From: Ian Dury Email: None To: Everyone Subject: EV's current communication crisis Message:

According to friends of mine in Malibu, Terry Yingling (whose husband is a longtime member of the Divine Residence Security Force) is not the only PR staffer to leave recently. Six or more members of the US PR team and the International PR team have stepped down within the past two months. Drip, drop, splash!

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:28:03 (GMT) From: C..G. Email: None To: Ian Dury Subject: Smart P.R. People Message:

These P.R. people were more authentic and ethical than he & we gave them credit for. More power to them I say! C.G.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 11:12:57 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Ian Dury Subject: Thanks! If only one of these escapees...... Message:

would come forward, surely they would be able to provide us with the names of those in the press actually interested in DLM/EV. Not that I expect there are a lot of reporters interested in the rawat cult but it would only take the name of one or two to get the ball rolling. Blame it on the Mahatmas

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 14:42:46 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: JTF Subject: Watch this space Message:

Hi JTF, There's a national magazine article on the way at the moment- I haven't read it yet, but I believe it's going to focus on the Jagdeo business. Anth lover of the free press.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 17:48:31 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: AJW Subject: Watch this space/any details? Message:

Anth-are there any details that you can let us in on now? such as, what magazine, when, what is the nature of the article? I'd be interested in knowing more, if you are free to divulge anything now. If not, keep us posted when it does come out...

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 15:08:37 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: AJW Subject: Watch this space/Alright!! Message:

Now, you have given me hope. All those years spent w/rawat hoping to find hope , waiting, waiting...and nothing. Believing, wanting to believe....and nothing. Thanks for the heads up...now, I must continue visiting here to see the outcome.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:09:28 (GMT) From: Know It All Email: None To: JTF Subject: Watch this space/Alright!! Message:

Details will probably not come until the article is actually published. A necessity when dealing with the cult, its lawyers and other representatives. Don't worry. The wait will be worth it. KIA

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 22:53:01 (GMT) From: ulf Email: None To: Everyone Subject: wasted years Message:

i just saw the wideo 'the lord of the universe ' in the end of the wideo some ex premies are talking about how they dump the whole trip. it made me wonder , why did i not see this,? why was i someone hwo did 25 years in this movement.? what was that, that made me eat it all ? why did it become the only answer in my life? we are talking about 25 years!!!!!!! it was NOT only because i was an idiot.!!!!!! I really belived it all , i really belived that we wouldt change the world , and that M was the way!!!!!! How couldt i and so many nice people i knew be fooled so much??? Why where we so naive? I dont really know , i think it is our upbringing we have to understand . I dont think i will ever really get over it.. it is just to many years. anyway i love this forum Regards Ulf (skandinavian)

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 01:48:54 (GMT) From: Aussi Ji Email: None To: ulf Subject: wasted years Message:

G'Day ulf,I have to agree with the others I don't believe in wasted time.Like you we all believed the whole trip (in varying degrees)I had 26 years in there and I feel that I learnt a lot.For instance I will never be conned again,nor will any of us.Yes we were naive,but not stupid.We were seekers of the truth,a noble thing for such young people.We believed it would help the world,also extremely noble.Ok so on one level yes you could say it was a waste of a lot of time in our youth but who knows what else might have befallen us.There are lots of regrets,but we are still here,and we have been thruogh it and come out the other side-ALIVE.Now we can enjoy it!I am a great believer that.EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS ULTIMATELY HAPPENS FOR THE BEST.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 06:38:25 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Aussi Ji Subject: wasted years Message:

I had 26 years in there and I feel that I learnt a lot.For instance I will never be conned again That's a hell of an argument for time well spent, Aussie, that it only took you 26 years to learn not to be conned again, not that you never will be, but I question your appraisal of what constitutes time well spent, if it's just to learn that you were the subject of a con for half your life. We were seekers of the truth,a noble thing for such young people. Is that what we were searching for, or was it just a drug in the form of Knowledge and the Perfect Master? If it was truth we were looking for, how come it took us so long to realize the truth about Maharaji? Maybe we really were as stupid as you say we weren't. Ya think? EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS ULTIMATELY HAPPENS FOR THE BEST. If it makes it easier for you to deal with the hardships of life by believing that, than go ahead. But don't kid yourself you're doing more than that. You don't really know if everything happens for the best. It's just nice to think it does. Right? I, personally, think things happen because of how fucked up people are.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 08:32:46 (GMT) From: Aussi Ji Email: None To: Jerry Subject: wasted years Message:

I learnt lots of things,no t just to be wary of being conned.Some of you guys on this forum have got a lot of shit to get through haven't you.I have posted a few times on the positives only to be shot down in flames .Ok that is fine,I can understand that but don't you think it is good to try and see the positives.(I hear you say what FUCKING positives?The fact that a lot of us stayed around for so long makes me think it can't of been to bad eh?So now we have left and see the folly and hindsight always has 20-20 vision.Time to move on .

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:45:28 (GMT) From: C.G. Email: None To: Aussi Ji Subject: Dumping the whole trip! Message:

Dear Ulf & all, I think when I write my journey this will be the title. Great! You could say I spent half of my life in this as well. 31 years. When I got into it my father warned me about just this kind of trip. He heard about it somehow during the 1930's. Perhaps by a newpaper headline. Who knows? It was about some charasmatic filmstar type blond woman in California during the 1930's I believe. She had hundreds of followers and my wonderful father who's 90 now tried to warn me against it 7 M. Anyone know her name? It was a bit before our time I appreciate, but there may be a list somewhere of cults of the past and actually they don't vary that much over time as we know. Two things that quite upset me about this is that during the 70's there was an ashram in London where M visited and my father happened to be working in the area. I know that my being there at the ashram to see M really embarassed my father in front of his co-workers. Especially as they would see all these strange cultie types hanging around. The other thing is I really want to write him a letter because as he doesn't know I've left the cult he is probably very worried that when he leaves me some of his well-earnt money that I will be giving it all or alot of it to M. I don't know how to go about assuring him that I am not going to give M a penny without upsetting him in his last years. Could anyone help me on this one? Thanks, C.G.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 21:19:20 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: C.G. Subject: To C.G. Her name was... Message:

...Aimee Semple McPherson E! True Hollywood Story has done a program on her.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 00:10:58 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: C.G. Subject: Go and see him , better than a letter nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 23:48:52 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: C.G. Subject: Write the letter Message:

Hi CG, Back in th early 70s when I was about to join an ashram I told my Mum that I would be giving Mahararsy all my worldly goods. She was very upset and changed her will, put my share in trust, god bless her. She was already ill and died a year later. By which time I had left the ashram. I think your Dad will be delighted to hear you are out. That filmstar type woman rings a bell..I think I might have something about her. love kelly

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 23:11:33 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: C.G. Subject: Dumping the whole trip! Write the Letter, C.G. Message:

Dear C.G., I've learned a lot about elderly parents by dealing with my aging mother who is the victim of Alzheimers disease. She's still on her own, but is quite reclusive, bad short term memory, good long term memory. I had a conversation with her recently that I posted about. She didn't realize that I had completely forsaken him (her R.Catholic language). I told her about all the hurts Maharaji had inflicted on me, and how long it has taken to deprogramme myself. My Mom was so happy I had rid myself of that bastard. ''Someone should string him up by the balls.'' she said. (Ma's become quite a foul mouth since the onset of Alzheimers.) It made her happy to know I had ''woken up.'' I don't know what your relationship with your father is like, but my mother and I have had some very rocky times over the years. Now we have made peace. It seems to be good for the elderly, who know they are facing the end of their lives; it is good for us adult children of those elderly, who are able, to assure our parents that we are now okay. It gives them relief. I told my mother over the phone. A letter would be great if you think it's appropriate for you. If it's appropriate, tell him he was right, you got stuck in a cult and it took many years to get out. It will make him happy and able to die without worry. Of course, it's your choice. Good Luck, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 17:57:15 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Aussi Ji Subject: wasted years Message:

I have posted a few times on the positives only to be shot down in flames If you've got something positive to say about your experience, so far you haven't. All you've said is that you'll never be conned again and that you believe everything happens for the best. I don't call that accentuating the positive. How's about enlightenment, or realizing the purpose of your life? Remember? The stuff we got into this for? Did you walk away with any of that?

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 19:15:16 (GMT) From: aussi Ji Email: None To: Jerry Subject: wasted years Message:

yep,sure do

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 23:52:17 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: aussi Ji Subject: wasted years Message:

Right. If that's what you got from Maharaji -- enlightenment and the realization of your life's purpose -- than how do you figure you were conned by him? I don't see very clear thinking on your behalf, Aussi Ji. That seems to be Maharaji's legacy with premies. He teaches us how not to think, so in time, we forget how.

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 23:36:09 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: ulf Subject: not wasted years Message:

Me too ulf, I watched it last night (see my post a few threads below) I know it is incredible that we swallowed the whole deal and truly believed it all, and now I feel such a fool! But...I don't think anything is wasted. I think it is all one great big learning, growing, evolving, journey of discovery, we're all a part of it and we can only be where we are at any point in time. I really am enjoying my new perspective, but I'm keeping an open mind....Where have I heard that before? (Me, 29 years ago!) Life is extraordinary, it's an incredible ,wonderful mystery and I'm happy to say that I don't understand the first thing about it. But, I prefer living in my own complex uncertainty than in Miragy's simplistic certainty, where nothing is questioned or examined. Ignorance is bliss! (No thanks!) All the best to you ulf kelly

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 00:45:53 (GMT) From: ulf Email: None To: Kelly Subject: not wasted years Message:

so you dont think it is not wasted? i am sure that you can make a new ``age thing`` out of it , but rigth now i feel , that i need the money , and the the time to make my life ,O:K i have used all my time ,into the fucking knowledge deal!!!! so where am i now ???? I have 3 chrildren , so much time is passed away!!!! You think it is all about going on ????? i tell it is not !!!!! Dont get into this new age thinking again!!!!!! the time is wasted . ..... i just made this post to let you know!!!!!!!!! Regards Ulf

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 01:22:40 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: ulf Subject: Yeah, they were wasted, alright Message:

I'm inclined to agree with you, ulf. The years spent chasing Maharaji's dream were wasted. It's not as if it materialized into anything we were looking for, eh? So, I agree. The cold truth is that Maharaji was a BIG FUCKING WASTE OF TIME!!!! Looking at it any other way is just sugarcoating it. But hey, we're still alive, aren't we? Maybe we no longer have our youth to start all over with (ain't that a fucking trip? FUCK YOU MAHARAJI! YOU NOT ONLY SENT ME ON A WILD GOOSE CHASE, YOU STOLE MY YOUTH DOING IT YOU BIG FAT TURD!!!) Anyway, I suppose I'm older and wiser now. At least I know Maharaji is a crud. That's not much consolation, but at least I feel hope that the rest of my life can be spent in a more realistic manner. That's all I really want these days, is to just touch reality. It's been a long time coming.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:58:30 (GMT) From: C.G. Email: None To: Jerry Subject: 3 kids, not wasted time - It's O.K. to be wrong Message:

Dear Ulf, However incompassing M might have wanted to be in all of our lives he wasn't. You had three beautiful children as part of this wonderful life. That had nothing to do with M. I bet you could think of other amazing things that have happened in 29 years that have absolutely nothing to do with M. None of us like to admit we've been wrong for all these years. But there are millions of people out there that just hate being wrong and get into all kinds of screw-ups because of it. We have all admitted that we have, could be and will be wrong in the future and that it's O.K. This is a huge step forward for ourselves and mankind.... ESPECIALLY PREMIES WHO REALLY HATE TO ADMIT THAT THEIR GURU AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM IS JUST WRONG WRONG WRONG. C.G.

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 23:48:00 (GMT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: Kelly Subject: not wasted years Message:

Great one, Kelly

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:13:45 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Wasted Years or Not? Message:

Hello All, I'd rather think of all those years as years spent and some lost, but not wasted. Look, there were times I got what I wanted, I was gullible, young, an injured young woman soul, looking for love. Prime bait. Maharaji was perfect timing for me, even though I was so skeptical about the New Age Movement even back then. Yet, all those years....? Do I lament the time lost? Of course. Have I grieved the loss? Working on it. All kinds of thoughts and emotions surface and as I deal with them I get healthier and happier, despite the cult and Maharaji's betrayal. I did learn a few things that I retain today (not too much), but a lot of what cults are all about. To find myself in this kind of unique situation, being an ex cult member, is rather astounding sometimes and I often feel rather proud of myself, having been able to see it for what it/he is: a cult and a betrayer. If I lament too much on ''the waste of it all,'' I only get depressed....but a good cry often helps. My 2cents worth, Be Well, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 04:09:44 (GMT) From: Aussi Ji Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Wasted Years or Not? Message:

Onya Cynthia,You little ripper.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:42:33 (GMT) From: kap Email: qwerty@pdai.com To: Cynthia Subject: wasted days and wasted nights Message:

an old song but true .well i knew something was wronge but i never could put my finger on it . perhaps we should share with each other more be more supportive. i was considering a gathering even a mountain retreat .up in southern utah .we could make it a ex cult hang out . or something. but actually i find the exers just as cold as they were when they were premies. its the materialistic culture i guess . why would any one want to hang with dudes who cant relate to others . everyone deservers what they get or dont get maybe none of you could handle love . maybe you were weaklings who needed a daddy figure to give you a sense of belonging . life is full of betrayal .so many wasted days and wasted nights .yet i still beleive you could all be redeamed broken as you are .you are still seekers . the deadly material maya is clouding all our minds now . lost we wander . the leagen of the lost god.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 04:40:38 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: kap Subject: Kap: I don't know you, so..... Message:

please don't try to manipulate me on our first post to eachother. Geeeezuuum Crow! You're a wild one! The last place I would want to go is Utah. I been going through snow, well below zero temps, the furnace always on or the wood stove, and freezing rain right now, with a nice layer of slushy snow on top. Utah, gag me. Seriously, I just don't catch your drift, kap. Stop your pity party and get a grip. It's over. It was a cult. Stop searching until you've got some good mental health. Take your time, and definitely, watch your boundaries with me, pal. I probably could deck you physically, and definitely verbally. I'm the Mistress of Manipulation. I know the insides and outsides of manipulation and I choose to refuse it's nasty services. I advise you to do the same with me, kap. BTW, because I set boundaries with you doesn't make me a cold person, despite the freezing rain.... Be well, okay? Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 19:24:07 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Just one more (ot) Message:

I know, I know, it's time to put the presidential election to rest, but I just gotta impress upon y'all just how tough it is to count votes in the good ol' U.S. of A. Here, you try it. Click here. See what I mean?

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 23:55:16 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Very clever Message:

Nice site too. Some smart people in there.

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 17:53:05 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Miragey's recent diatribe Message:

Here are some extracts from a recent satellite broadcast. An amalgamation of two “trainings”, Atlanta and Amaroo, plus some other clips. These particular extracts are from the Atlanta training in July 2000 called “Introducing the possibility of knowledge” This was the next to last “drip” for me. I was watching a video recording of it, on my own, in my house, and I just hated it so much, I was screaming at the screen….some of it unrepeatable!! but …” THAT’S IT, I’M OUTA HERE” Anyway, I thought you might like to hear some of it, so I transcribed this…. On screen heading, “The Fundamentals” The following extract is a straight, uncut sequence. Maharaji… “Knowledge, and all things associated with it, are compliments of the Master. The Master doesn’t want knowledge sessions to happen, Guess what? They’re not happening. The Master changes the rules, creates the rules, disposes of these rules, as the Master wishes. The possibility of knowledge is brought to you by the compliments of your friendly Master. (laughter and applause) Now, I’m not getting into the logistics of it OK? I understand it is the people who are interested make many of these things a physical reality. But, the key frame here is, compliments..the Master says, yes this is OK to do, you may talk about knowledge, you may not talk about knowledge. Both have to be taken with the same stride. If you’re borrowing your neighbour’s car, the neighbour says yes you may drive it, then one day he may say ..No you may not drive it, I want my car back. You have to realize….Ownership of knowledge resides with the Master…Hearing about knowledge is a privilege….Being able to talk about knowledge is a privilege, it’s not a right, it’s a privilege. …Receiving knowledge is a privilege…Being able to practice knowledge is a privilege…..Being able to participate is a privilege.” (Audience of invited guests nodding and smiling) Another extract entitled “A little History” Maharaji….” When a lot of the Mahatmas came to the West, they brought with them immeasurable amount of concepts, and it kinda went wild, and there was no stopping it. The backlash of that, I had to directly bear. Because people would ask me point blank these questions…”Are you this? Are you that, you know, What is this? What is that? “ (I’ve missed a bit here) “So, that’s the good news, the bad news is that the concepts have really gotten us in a hole to this day, where we’re still having to defend ourselves, which I find pathetic (he spits this out) having to defend ourselves and say.. No.. these things are not true. So we cannot afford to perpetuate any concepts. Knowledge works…look, you know, lets face it, knowledge works. The Master, when given the right environment, does his thing, and it’s great. It all works. Whatever we forge for the future, we have to remember.. where.. we.. came from, and we have to remember, most importantly, how incredibly dangerous, incredibly dangerous, this stuff is….. Shooting your mouth off is not innocent by any stretch of the imagination….What you say in your…fuzzy feeling…you know what I mean…fuzzy feeling? When you’re feeling nice and oooh sooo inspired, can be deadly dangerous. What you say cannot have any tolerance for mistakes…..What do you think?….Does this far of the history make any sense? And why I’m bringing this up? Because I see you in the same shoes. There’s a lot more of you than there were of them…..Comprende?…..Just playing Russian roulette with a lot more guns. Your chances go up. I don’t want to be in those shoes. I don’t think these mistakes have to happen and I don’t think these mistakes need to be there” I expect you can imagine the way all this was delivered, in that pompous, petulant, arrogant way he speaks, with frequent long pregnant pauses and raised eyebrows. So supercilious, so condescending, so insulting to the audience who are all people who have given up their lives to help him. Oh yes, I forgot, it’s a privilege!!! Anyway I could comment on this forever, but I’d be very interested in your comments. Kelly

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 03:14:10 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Feedback Message:

Kelly, I have copied your post and inserted carrotted comments where the spirit moved me: On screen heading, “The Fundamentals” The following extract is a straight, uncut sequence. Maharaji… “Knowledge, and all things associated with it, are compliments of the Master. >OK, thank you very much. The Master doesn’t want knowledge sessions to happen, Guess what? They’re not happening. >Hey, it's your gig, whatever. But I thought that was your mission and your father's agya to you. Why would you not have Knowledge sessions, with all due respect? The Master changes the rules, creates the rules, disposes of these rules, as the Master wishes. >I got it. You are strawbossing this gig. Got it. The possibility of knowledge is brought to you by the compliments of your friendly Master. (laughter and applause) >I don't know enough to say anything else but hey, thanks for crossing the world so that I could receive Knowledge. Even though I have some real issues with you as a person (if that's allowed), you did facilitate my receiving Knowledge. And it does feel good. Now, I’m not getting into the logistics of it OK? I understand it is the people who are interested make many of these things a physical reality. >Yes, you did say that premies in service to you are your hands and feet. 'We the people'... But, the key frame here is, compliments..the Master says, yes this is OK to do, you may talk about knowledge, you may not talk about knowledge. Both have to be taken with the same stride. >Got it. You are the man. If you’re borrowing your neighbour’s car, the neighbour says yes you may drive it, then one day he may say ..No you may not drive it, I want my car back. >'Scuse me? Not in my wildest metaphors (and God knows I come up with some doozies) would I ever compare Maharaji to my neighbor, Knowledge to his car, and myself to a neighbor who is borrowing his car. My understanding from the Master is that a) Knowledge was always inside us, b) It's a GIFT! Now I hear it's on loan. Which way is it? Gift and loan are two very different scenarios with two very different requirements. Gift requires gratitude. Loan requires repayment. >IF THIS IS SO SIMPLE AS YOU SAY IT IS, WHY IS IT SO GODDAMMED COMPLICATED NOW? WHY ARE THERE SO MANY HUMAN CASUALTIES STREWN AL0NG YOUR GOLDEN WAY WHO CAME TO LOVE AND SERVE JUST LIKE I DID? SURELY THEY CAN'T ALL BE CRAZY OR INSANELY PLOTTING AGAINST YOU FOR NO REASON. You have to realize….Ownership of knowledge resides with the Master… >You said it was a GIFT, FREE, NO CHARGE. Remember? Hearing about knowledge is a privilege….Being able to talk about knowledge is a privilege, it’s not a right, it’s a privilege. …Receiving knowledge is a privilege…Being able to practice knowledge is a privilege…..Being able to participate is a privilege.” (Audience of invited guests nodding and smiling) >Yes, Life itself is a privilege and all good things that come along with it including all the things you mentioned. And I am exercising a privilege too, by boldly approaching the throne of grace and asking without fear of being upbraided, what the hell is going on? What is up with Susan and Abi and all the others who have been messed with under the umbrella of your authority even though you personally had nothing to do with it? Another extract entitled “A little History” Maharaji….” When a lot of the Mahatmas came to the West, they brought with them immeasurable amount of concepts, and it kinda went wild, and there was no stopping it. >Who prepped them for the journey West? Who gave them agya how to be? What to say? How to represent their purpose? Are you saying they all disobeyed your agya and went haywire when they got here? Why blame it all on the Mahatmas? And why wasn't there any stopping it? You had their devotion and attention. Couldn't you have stopped it just by saying you wanted it stopped? The backlash of that, I had to directly bear. Because people would ask me point blank these questions…”Are you this? Are you that, you know, What is this? What is that?“ >Are you saying that you did not personally approve all the publications of Divine Times and all the other printed matter? Are you saying that you really did not want us to sing Arti to you morning and night? Are you saying that all the satsangs and photos you personally approved of that you wanted destroyed were bogus, just tools to reel us in back in the 70's? The backlash that you had to bear was yours to bear, with all due respect, just as I have had to bear all the backlash about Jagdeo and all the rest trying to communicate with my fellow human beings here on this site. They are not all troublemakers, not all bongos, not all even your enemies. Some are just very hurt and pissed, and would sincerely appreciate some sort of an explanation as to the details of how they got caught up in the cogs of the organizations that represented you. I know you can stay behind the curtains and make the lights and smoke do their thing, like in the Wizard of Oz...but if you really are human, now would be a great time to show it here, with all due respect, but serious as a heart attack. “So, that’s the good news, the bad news is that the concepts have really gotten us in a hole to this day, where we’re still having to defend ourselves, which I find pathetic (he spits this out) having to defend ourselves and say.. No.. these things are not true. So we cannot afford to perpetuate any concepts. >What concepts? Please be specific so we can talk with some hope of focussing on what especially are the problem concepts, who perpetuated them and how they can be unperpetuated. Knowledge works…look, you know, lets face it, knowledge works. >I enjoy Knowledge when I get into it. But like any other gift that is given to me, if some bad shit happens between me and the giver of any gift, that gift (or the using of it) is sort of tainted, you know, until the shit is cleared up. Surely you can understand that...so I am just running on the Grace of Almighty God right now, speaking the truth and fearing no man, until I feel better about this relationship. The Master, when given the right environment, does his thing, and it’s great. It all works. >Same goes for the devotee. The devotee, when given the right environment, does his/her thing, and it's great. What we need to determine is 'right environment'. Whatever we forge for the future, we have to remember.. where.. we.. came from, and we have to remember, most importantly, how incredibly dangerous, incredibly dangerous, this stuff is….. >The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want....yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil, for Thou art with me... Shooting your mouth off is not innocent by any stretch of the imagination….What you say in your…fuzzy feeling…you know what I mean…fuzzy feeling? When you’re feeling nice and oooh sooo inspired, can be deadly dangerous. What you say cannot have any tolerance for mistakes….. >That last sentence basically says that there is no room for error when premies speak. That sounds like a taller order than marriage, which you also once said was a tall order. Good luck! What do you think?….Does this far of the history make any sense? And why I’m bringing this up? Because I see you in the same shoes. There’s a lot more of you than there were of them…..Comprende?…..Just playing Russian roulette with a lot more guns. Your chances go up. I don’t want to be in those shoes. I don’t think these mistakes have to happen and I don’t think these mistakes need to be there” >Please translate into plain English. If I read you clearly, it all began way before almost anyone present was involved, it began with your awareness and you let it slide for years. Now if that which you allude to comes home to roost, you will blame it on someone else too? Amazing. So Kelly, this is my feedback straight from the hip, the heart, the place inside me that seems to know. Sandy

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:10:02 (GMT) From: Chad (just hangin') Email: None To: all Subject: A small, cautionary note Message:

Not to disturb anyone's entertainment but... You might factor in that you're (in this thread) responding so vehemently and self-righteously to what? ....a skewed, selective, subjective, somewhat misquoted and fun-house mirror rendition of an address you didn't actually hear or see. (Do you so passionately and authoritatively review Bruce Willis movies, based on somebody else's reaction?) Not to mention that, to this observer, the context, vibe, meaning and tone were entirely different than what was described here. Especially the feeling, which still, in the 21st century, means more than 2/3 of the words. Citing cases (Aristotle, da Vinci, Einstein, Jesus, Ram, Miles Davis, King, Dylan, Lennon, Zoroaster, Zorro, Shakespeare, Hendrix, Jefferson and Pythagoras). WIS 33155B I respectfully dissent. From Kelly's perspective, 'all this was delivered, in that pompous, petulant, arrogant way he speaks, with frequent long pregnant pauses and raised eyebrows. So supercilious, so condescending, so insulting to the audience who are all people who have given up their lives to help him.' Just as, to Michael Dettmers, jokes from 22 years ago have now, in the year 2000 (somewhere between May and October) apparently become insensitive and hurtful. (I guess not so) needless to say, it didn't feel like that at all to me or the people who were actually there. To the people that enjoy him, many of whom actually still exist and thrive and whom you might immediately groove with, if you met them at the market, not a single one of Kelly's adjectives is remotely accurate. They might apply to Mussolini, James Baker or Margeret Thatcher but Maharaji....get a grip...at that point it starts to sound like you have clearly forgotten the character you're talking about and have created a mythical scapegoat and bogeyman based on distance and doubt. There's no connection to reality, just a strange syndrome which could be named, Reverse Wishful Thinking. I'm sure some clever critter will find a way to work Rawat into that acronym. My gut instinct tells me, that to Kelly or anyone else who is attempting to view Maharaji (or anybody else, for that matter, including husband or friend) through a cloud of distance, babble, suspicion and doubt, he could say, 'how're you doin', Kelly?' or 'good morning' and it might immediately assume equally demonic and sinister properties. To someone who's been around him recently and who's heard and felt where he is, it all sounds more than a little silly. And self-righteous. And severely skewed, distorted and spun ...worse than a Republican picnic (with lotsa flags and overcooked burgers). Just an observation. Have fun.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:10:31 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Chad (just hangin') Subject: You are really a piece of work.. Message:

Especially the feeling, which still, in the 21st century, means more than 2/3 of the words Whose feeling, Chad? Yours, or Kelly's and why, tell me, is yours any more valid than hers. (I guess not so) needless to say, it didn't feel like that at all to me or the people who were actually there And just how do you know how 'the people who were actually there' were feeling? Are you omniscent? Are you deluded? Engaging in magical thinking? at that point it starts to sound like you have clearly forgotten the character you're talking about and have created a mythical scapegoat and bogeyman based on distance and doubt. And who have YOU created, Danny? Are you so egotistical that you think YOU are seeing Maharaji for what he really is, but people who see him as an egomaniacal fraud aren't? Why don't you try and use your brain and just admit you DISAGREE with Kelly, instead of trying to pontificate on what is reality, you pompous ass? Read the Vedas lately, Danny. You always seemed to be gloating about how spiritual and high you were, perhaps that hasn't changed. Who is sounding silly and self-righteous, or perhaps is in the cult?

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:52:08 (GMT) From: Chad Email: None To: Joe Subject: Danny? Message:

Who are you talking to?

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 22:01:06 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Chad (just hangin') Subject: Fuck off Danny , your paw prints are all over Message:

this here Chad. Just as well you weren't counting the votes.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 17:50:59 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Chad (just hangin') Subject: A few non-cautionary questions for chad... Message:

Chad-I was wondering if you would care to comment on maharaji's off stage behavior...do you know about it?...can you make sense of it?...are you afraid to look at it?...does it seem to jive with the satsang he gives?...would you have the balls to ask maharaji some of these questions?...do you think you would ever be given the chance , by him, to do so?(don't say he doesn't have the time-he could easily make a one hour video addressing everyone's complaints and issues about his actions...it would take him about, let's say, one hour,right? that's if he really wanted to...)...are you comfortable with introducing maharaji to new people, giving them the nice clean message about knowledge and the master, but conveniently leaving out the drugs and alcohol addictions, mistresses, abortions,funny-money(lots of this),mansions,yachts,jets,needless cars,wierd power tripping and game playing he does with close devotees, general lying by attempting to revise the past about playing God...ALL OF THIS, courtesy of your friendly master, financed by YOU, the unsuspecting new student, through your donations to an organization you are led to believe will bring world peace, but which has a drop out rate of 90-95% so far, and these were his supporters! You might be hanging now, Chad, but if you open your real eyes and ears and heart, something somewhere is gonna punch you through...through to the other side where you can finally be free to see for yourself, think for yourself, feel for yourself,be yourself, know yourself...all by yourself...courtesy of your friendly OWN SELF!

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 16:39:21 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Chad (just hangin') Subject: A small, cautionary note Message:

Chad, I’m glad you’re hanging, does it hurt? I expected this sort of reaction. Have you read my post below entitled “My take on your take.Brilliant.” If not, I wish you would do. In it, I try to imagine how a fully dedicated, fully deluded premie might respond. (I was one only a short time ago) They’d be sure to say that I’d been selective and taken things out of context. So I made it clear that this was a video of a recent satellite broadcast. No I wasn’t there, but I still have a copy of the video. It was the most heavily edited, chopped about video I have ever seen, and I’ve seen a few! So who’s being selective? Visions do it all the time. M certainly does it. He doesn’t want us to see the real man behind the stage persona. The man who still tells obscene and offensive jokes, and I’ve heard a few of those. The mistresses, the cognac and the cigars, the rudeness and the bad temper. No, he doesn’t want us to see that! Anyway, I digress. The point is that the passages I chose were straight un-cut sequences, and when I missed a bit out, I said so. Also, I was punctilious to transcribe them accurately…They are verbatim. The Man Is Condemned Out Of His Own Mouth So we sound “silly and self-righteous” do we? And” severely skewed, distorted and spun” I can’t believe you said that. Didn’t you hear him? All that stuff about the, mahatmas bringing the concepts, like he had nothing to do with it? And ownership of knowledge? Can you really go along with all that? You can’t have heard him. Maybe you’re one of those blind faithers who just let his words wash over them. (The starry eyed syndrome.) Maharaji is the Master of Spin. Kelly

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 16:08:48 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Chad (just hangin') Subject: Cautionary? Who sends veiled threats here? Message:

Dear Chad, I have copied your post and inserted my repsonses to you carrotted for easy reading: Not to disturb anyone's entertainment but... >Just the fact that you suggest this is primarily 'entertaining' shows me that you don't feel something very important, something that you would take VERY seriously and feel very much if you were in some of their shoes. You might factor in that you're (in this thread) responding so vehemently and self-righteously to what? >Maybe what you call vehemence is called for and justified here. (Vehemence: having or showing strong feeling, showing strong feeling). But self-righteous? You definitely have the lock on that. You present yourself in anonymity and drop a veiled threat by using the word 'cautionary'. What should we be cautious of? Having strong feelings about our life experience? God forbid. ....a skewed, selective, subjective, somewhat misquoted and fun-house mirror rendition of an address you didn't actually hear or see. (Do you so passionately and authoritatively review Bruce Willis movies, based on somebody else's reaction?) Not to mention that, to this observer, the context, vibe, meaning and tone were entirely different than what was described here. Especially the feeling, which still, in the 21st century, means more than 2/3 of the words. Citing cases (Aristotle, da Vinci, Einstein, Jesus, Ram, Miles Davis, King, Dylan, Lennon, Zoroaster, Zorro, Shakespeare, Hendrix, Jefferson and Pythagoras). WIS 33155B >So everyone who doesn't hear what you hear is wrong.... I respectfully dissent. >Your words say 'I respectfully dissent', but the other 2/3 of your communication, as I hear it, says more on the line of 'You creep low-lifes suck, and I'm here to straighten you out.' From Kelly's perspective, 'all this was delivered, in that pompous, petulant, arrogant way he speaks, with frequent long pregnant pauses and raised eyebrows. So supercilious, so condescending, so insulting to the audience who are all people who have given up their lives to help him.' Just as, to Michael Dettmers, jokes from 22 years ago have now, in the year 2000 (somewhere between May and October) apparently become insensitive and hurtful. >Chad, you've been hangin' too long. You are not on and not off. You are just hangin'...what was a little joke of yours turns out to be where you seem to be really and truly at. In reply to your last misuse and abuse of the English language, when people are under the rule of a Master, when people have vowed their lives to him, given the 'reins of their lives' to him, some gravity gets created. Intertia sets in. People stop believing their own God-given transmissions of consciousness and inner experience and become mentally and psychically subordinate. I don't think that is the intended result, but it happens and we all know it. So basically, how can you question Michael Dettmers or anyone else who has come to a realization, no matter how long it took. The folks here are being very here and now about how they feel. If you seek to find orchestration of words, people and events, I suggest you look elsewhere. And I assure you that if you ever have a realization that took you years to discover, I will not bust your chops over it. (I guess not so) needless to say, it didn't feel like that at all to me or the people who were actually there. >Scuze me, did you take an exit poll of how people really and truly felt in their gut, or are you assuming that the smiles were all genuine and they obiviously showed all the same response? You can only speak for yourself, Chad. I respect your right to your feelings. Why can't you respect others' rights to theirs? We all need to be cautious, not just dissenters. To the people that enjoy him, many of whom actually still exist and thrive and whom you might immediately groove with, if you met them at the market, not a single one of Kelly's adjectives is remotely accurate. >The beauty was, is and always will be in the eye of the beholder. They might apply to Mussolini, James Baker or Margeret Thatcher >There are supporters of all those above-mentioned personalities who would advise YOU to be cautious here, Chad. but Maharaji....get a grip...at that point it starts to sound like you have clearly forgotten the character you're talking about and have created a mythical scapegoat and bogeyman based on distance and doubt. >...You mean like how Maharaji blamed the mahatmas who came west first for all the misunderstandings? >Chad, there is obviously something going on here that needs closer scrutiny than you seem to have given it. To many, Maharaji can do no wrong, is godlike in nature, and brings hope to the world for peace on an individual level, hopefully spreading person by person throughout the world. To others, Maharaji is someone who has said very strong things to attract a following, then has denied saying them, has blamed all the basic misunderstandings on his mahatmas, and has There's no connection to reality, just a strange syndrome which could be named, Reverse Wishful Thinking. I'm sure some clever critter will find a way to work Rawat into that acronym. >There's no connection to your reality maybe. But have you no respect of anyone else but yourself? Check out Voltaire and waht he said about rights and disagreements. And your cynicism and negativity in your comments about 'reverse wishful thinking' a 'some clever critter yadda yadda yadda..' just salts the wounds and does not acknowledge anyone's feelings but your own cynical ones. Humility and compassion are what I wish for you to receive this Christmas. My gut instinct tells me, that to Kelly or anyone else who is attempting to view Maharaji (or anybody else, for that matter, including husband or friend) through a cloud of distance, babble, suspicion and doubt, he could say, 'how're you doin', Kelly?' or 'good morning' and it might immediately assume equally demonic and sinister properties. >Maharaji once said there's him and then there's everybody else. I don't think you can fairly compare him to anyone else in terms of influence or power over someone. And like you said, 2/3 of the communication is unspoken. So there are many thousands of people running around this world with very different feelings (aside from the Knowledge and its beautiful experience), about Maharaji. If you are you, you feel how you feel. If you are Susan or Abi, or Abi's dad, or any number of young blonde female premies, you might feel different. If you were Michael Dettmers, you'd feel differently too. One size does not fit all. To someone who's been around him recently and who's heard and felt where he is, it all sounds more than a little silly. And self-righteous. And severely skewed, distorted and spun ...worse than a Republican picnic (with lotsa flags and overcooked burgers). >Do you contribute money to him or the organizations which do the administrative work such as EV? If you were 'around him', chances are your pockets are deeper than mine. Also, different people have different experiences with the same person. Haven't you ever had two friends who don't get along? >As for the 'being there' aspect of Maharaji and how folks who were not somewhere should not judge, etc....I remember him saying that if someone is attuned to him, distance doesn't matter...crosses bone, crosses flesh, crosses miles..remember? >I used to be giving satsang to friends in one city while Maharaji was having a program far away and after hearing what he talked about, it was uncanny how what I was saying was so much similar to what he was saying, down to subjects and such. I was resonating with him and it felt great. I don't feel that much lately,and I don't think I am the only one who has changed. Just an observation. >Yeah, me too. Sandy PS Why the anonymity if you are so connected?

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 08:02:50 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: shp Subject: I applaud your integrity Sandy nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 16:52:07 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: shp Subject: I applaud your integrity Sandy and double it! Message:

Sandy, great posts,I've printed them out to read again in detail. Talk to you soon. love Kelly

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 05:31:49 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: shp Subject: Elaine + you have GOT to read the shp's post! (nt) Message:

wow

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 05:35:50 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Stonor Subject: shouldn't be 'the' - not 'the post above' (nt) Message:

shp's post

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:20:25 (GMT) From: Gordon Showcase Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Miragey's recent diatribe - he's right Message:

Maharaji's right. This careless talk really is dangerous and it's costing Maharaji millions of dollars a year in lost revenue. Do you people want to be responsible for ruining this poor man's financial empire which has taken him decades of hard slog to build up? You might all be a bunch of loosers and winers but Maharaji's a winner and doesn't need these complete idiots talking about him and his knowledge. Just because these morons have received his divine knowledge, they think they actually know something and have the God given right to spout forth their ridiculous views to the world. The truth is, Maharaji knows he's given this knowledge to a bunch of lowlife, mental retards because those are the sort of people who'll believe him and now he has to somehow shut them up before they do serious damage to his real and very important finances. I mean, what do these stupid premies know about wealth and finance - they all have their heads stuck in some pathetic ideal of peace and love. So for goodness sake, premies - shut up and listen to the friendly master and stop talking about Maharaji or knowledge and realise that you're pig ignorant and are of limited use to the master. He can do all this without you, you know. He doesn't need the likes of you to help him spread this knowledge. If he gives you a job of opening a door, then that is all you're fit for and you should desist in this idiotic notion that you can talk to people about anything to do with your so called 'experience'. Your experience is nothing. You know nothing and it's very dangerous to think otherwise.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 09:23:43 (GMT) From: brian too Email: None To: Gordon Showcase Subject: Miragey's recent diatribe - he's right Message:

What have we got here? The world has just been put on notice that THE MASTER is about to change the rules and move the ends of the playing field. Funny how the opportunity for personal experience gets smaller and smaller with each turn. Used to be we could at least participate in an invigorating attempt to publicly convey our thoughts and experiences through nightly Satsang. Although much of the time there was spent listening to drivel some folks actually got very good at expressing themselves and inspiring others. Is this where things went wrong? inspiration and experience have no Master, and it would not be in the best interest of M for anyone of the lowly peons in the cheap seats to find that out. Who knows they might even garner a following of their own and erode away at the economic base. I personally know a man (not a former premie) who has about 50 followers who revere his every word and request. Small potatoes compared to M but still a comfortable living. And how about Jan Cox, http://www.jancox.com/ at least he does not claim license to to the keys to the kingdom. How can anyone claim ownership to enlightenment? There are so many places that exist right now that one can go and get these same techniques. Amoung others, Namely his Brother, M alone does not have a corner on the knowledge market. I would have a lot more respect for him if he would just say, I am just selling my brand of knowledge, you can try brand X but we have a 65% market share and our brand is very competitive when it come to results. Or something that, at least we would be informed consumers. If attachments are the curse to enlightenment, then giving up the attachment to Maharaji, or anyone like him, is a step along the way to liberation

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 13:52:30 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: brian too Subject: Exsuse Message:

Sorry to interrupt, but last time I saw you, you were crying murder. I have seen your other posts, but have not had the chance to read them. Can you update me as to where you're standing, Salam wondering why rawat sucks.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:38:55 (GMT) From: sucha Email: None To: Salam Subject: He's finding own path:now obstacle disappearing(nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:13:34 (GMT) From: brian too Email: None To: Salam Subject: just looking at Message:

both sides,

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 00:11:30 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: brian too Subject: There are no both sides Message:

It is all lila. Maharaji is maya, an illusion, a mind, you need to focus and understand. Do not meditate, it mushes up your heads. Have a beer instead. You probably thinking oh yeah, but I am sounding like a devil. Bloody right. I am temptation, corruption, guru ass kicker and hater of lies. Do not take your time, it is not worth it. Look at it this way. Even if the guru is for real, so what? You won't understand nothing anyway, so why bother. Ask yourself, what do you want from him that you do not already know. It is all layed out straight in front of you. I think that if you read the other parts on this site, you will understand in a short period of few days a lot lot more that you understood in all your time being a zombie chasing after groomji. Can you tell me if he is capable of saving anything accept his ass. What is he saving you from? Do you really think that you can survive in this time without using your mind, you use it all the time, when you wake up, take a shower, read a paper, talk to someone,at work and fuck someone. You really think your getting peace out of no-lije? Come off it, if you did, then you should not be reading this. Maharaji is not god, perfect master or a teacher. He is only an ex-Indian home made guru. There are plenty around and they all claim to be the ONE and speak the same language. Do you really think that he knows that you even exist? Do you think that he care about you? For me there is not doubt about it, he has no idea. He is obssessed with the idea of bring peace and understanding to this world, his way. Because he thinks that he is right everyone else is wrong. He is after power and prestige. He can not face the truth that he is a failiar when it come to it. Well that was a good rap, don't you think so. Salam

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 04:31:19 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Gordon Showcase Subject: Right On Brother - You Tell Em nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 01:10:39 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Miragey's recent diatribe - my take. Message:

'Knowledge, and all things associated with it, are compliments of the Master.' The dictionary says: Compliments =' An expression of formal respect, civility. A present'. Thus Maharaji says, Knowledge, and all things associated with it, are a given by him (to aspirants and premies) civilly and respectfully. As he goes on it becomes harder to see exactly where the civility and respect part comes in. 'The Master doesn’t want knowledge sessions to happen, Guess what? They’re not happening.' He is the one controlling the giving out of Knowledge and he can stop doing that whenever he likes. There is a veiled threat that he may withold giving Knowledge if anything (such as actions by the premies listening) give him cause to do so. If Knowledge sessions stop of course that’s bad. Thus he engenders fear in the audience who are acutely anxious that it not be their actions or mistakes which lead to him making this clearly dreadful decision. 'The Master changes the rules, creates the rules, disposes of these rules, as the Master wishes.' He can do as he likes and his pupils live in an uncertain world. This is clearly not a ‘master’ in the healthy sense of the word. It is well known that growing children (which could be said to analogous of pupils of a master) need an environment where their limits are well defined. A household where the father is always domineeringly changing the rules undermines the confidence and security of the children. The possibility of knowledge is brought to you by the compliments of your friendly Master. (laughter and applause) Tries to soften the unfriendly implications of his speech by absurdly suggesting that he is being friendly. Now, I’m not getting into the logistics of it OK? I understand it is the people who are interested who make many of these things a physical reality. But, the key frame here is, compliments. Belittles the fact that it is hugely thanks to the tireless and dedicated work of followers that he is able to do any of this. He wants to disempower them in the equation completely and empower himself above all. 'The Master says, yes this is OK to do, you may talk about knowledge, you may not talk about knowledge. Both have to be taken with the same stride. If you’re borrowing your neighbour’s car, the neighbour says yes you may drive it, then one day he may say ..No you may not drive it, I want my car back.' It is NOT your right to talk about Knowledge. That is what without any shadow of doubt he is saying here. This is very disturbing as it implies that he wants to control what people say about their own inner experience. Are we to suppose also that this Knowledge, which is within inside us is borrowed ? that our life itself – our very existence is borrowed ?? from him? What kind of a gift is it that someone gives you that you have no right to talk about??? It is a gift with the condition that you follow rules which change at his whim and you must not talk about if he tells you not to. Of course the Knowledge techniques are the prime secret that you are beholden to him to keep. The right to talk about it is stressed as being a privilege that may be removed at a moments notice. 'You have to realize….Ownership of knowledge resides with the Master…Hearing about knowledge is a privilege….Being able to talk about knowledge is a privilege, it’s not a right, it’s a privilege.…Receiving knowledge is a privilege…Being able to practice knowledge is a privilege…..Being able to participate is a privilege.' (Audience of invited guests nodding and smiling) He owns your experience. Great. You are beholden to him. The experience of your own Life Force is NOT YOUR RIGHT. It is not a human being’s birthright to know their God, but a privilege that is LENT to him , without any assurance that he can even speak about it, by this incontrovertibly imperfect man , who clearly claims that he is the Perfect Master. Another extract entitled 'A little History' Perhaps 'A little revisionism' would have been more apt. ' When a lot of the Mahatmas came to the West, they brought with them immeasurable amount of concepts, and it kinda went wild, and there was no stopping it.' Yes, and he tried SO HARD to stop it didn’t he? The backlash of that, I had to directly bear. Poor Maharaji had to suffer because all the mahatmas misrepresented him and Knowledge. All by himself, I think he may be trying to illicit a little symapathy here. Premies will give him heaps. 'How could we have allowed him to be so put out?' Time to get the flagellatory whips out. I’m sorry, but this line of blaming the Indian Mahatmas is grossly unfair. You only have to read Maharaji’s father’s satsang speeches and you can see where all the Indian concepts came from. Also it would not be hard to prove, by dredging up Maharaji’s own early speeches, that he brought 99% of those ‘immeasurable concepts' to the West himself. He whose every word all premie’s took as gospel . He who clearly said that we should dedicate our lives to him in the Ashram –be celibate (rule one) –be vegetarian (rule 2) – etc. etc. Anyway, so these immeasurable concepts… What is he talking about exactly? – and tell me someone please – what did the poor old Mahatmas tell us that was so frightful –Mine just told me to meditate exactly as Maharaji himself prescribed and to do everything else M aharaji demanded himself endlessly. Nothing more that I recall. So Maharaji’s revisionism fails to impress me a jot. In fact I am appalled at his lack of taking any responsibility for what he actually demanded from us back then. 'Because people would ask me point blank these questions…' Are you this? Are you that, you know, What is this? What is that' He must be referring to the recurrent'Do you say you’re God? You’re followers say you are' question. Well, clearly one can see that the ‘Master’ whom he describes is unmistably ‘God-like' given his extraordinary powers and claimed authority. Next he’ll be saying 'I never said I’m a Master' and accusing premies of misrepresenting him! '… the bad news is that the concepts have really gotten us in a hole to this day, where we’re still having to defend ourselves, which I find pathetic (he spits this out) having to defend ourselves and say.. No these things are not true. So we cannot afford to perpetuate any concepts.' Well. He’s hardly helping his defence by spitting out the sort of thing that he has apparently said - if these little extracts are anything to go by. I think he really badly needs to go a lot further than just saying 'No, these things are not true'. OK, so he finds it pathetic to have to be answerable to criticism (which does not reasonably amount to attack - let’s be clear about this) . But he needs to go further and prove that these things are not true. Not just simply claim 'they’re not true!' Also, if he finds himself 'in a hole' and feels ‘under attack’ merely because some of his past, undoubtedly sincere followers want some straight answers then what is so ‘pathetic’ about showing them a little deserved empathy and apologising to them for subjecting them to so many unreasonable ‘hinduistic’ demands? 'Knowledge works…look, you know, lets face it, knowledge works. The Master, when given the right environment, does his thing, and it’s great. It all works.' Yes, and my experience of late is that the meditation part works well without the Master bit. Sure the devotion and surrender stuff works well in the right environment. A closed environment where it’s easy to brainwash people. Whatever we forge for the future, we have to remember.. where.. we.. came from, and we have to remember, most importantly, how incredibly dangerous, incredibly dangerous, this stuff is….. Shooting your mouth off is not innocent by any stretch of the imagination…. Uhoh…he’s sounding cross now. It’s the Mafioso Boss warning his hoods not to squeal. We’re definitely talking in terms of someone who feels that they are in a ‘war of opposing sides’ here… Remember the World War Two slogan , urging the populace of the dangers of idle chat because Hitler’s spies were rife –'Careless talk costs lives' I believe that in Germany at this time the warning had a more threatening tone in that if you were judged responsible for such indiscretions you could be shot or hung. Maharaji says that if you betray him in any way you’re ' not innocent' ie YOU'RE GUILTY. He leaves it to the poor intimidated premie to imagine what might be the punishment for this crime. 'What you say in your…fuzzy feeling…you know what I mean…fuzzy feeling? When you’re feeling nice and oooh sooo inspired, can be deadly dangerous. What you say cannot have any tolerance for mistakes….. Deadly dangerous??!! No tolerance for mistakes? Not even a weeny bit? I think he waxing a bit melodramatic here. How many blissed out premies that you have met have said something 'deadly dangerous’ ?? Deadly boring maybe, but life threateningly dangerous –hardly. What does he want-People to be so worried about saying what they feel that all they are permitted to do is spout some safe party line? 'What do you think? .Does this far of the history make any sense?' Excuse me, did I hear correctly? did you ask me for my opinion?? I suppose, at this point in the proceedings, a dozen hands shot up and people had the chance to respond to this rare opportunity to answer Maharaji – 'No, it doesn’t make sense O Master. Actually I was rather wondering if you could explain a little problem I have about…' Of course not. This is not a real question. One that you are allowed to actually answer. You are merely supposed to nod assentingly and silently – indeed like so many sheep. 'And why I’m bringing this up? Because I see you in the same shoes. There’s a lot more of you than there were of them…..Comprende?…..Just playing Russian roulette with a lot more guns. Your chances go up. I don’t want to be in those shoes. I don’t think these mistakes have to happen and I don’t think these mistakes need to be there' It sounds to me like he’s bringing this up because he’s afraid that if premies will again put him in the situation where he will have to ‘defend’ himself. Against what? Some simple questions? The situation where he may be called upon to answer some simple straightforward questions seems to fill him with dread. This suggests that he has no answers. So all the premies are very likely going to screw things up royally for Maharaji given half the chance. He clearly doesn’t want people to talk about Knowledge or at least he is extremely paranoid that people are going to fatally misrepresent him and Knowledge. This is neither respecful or civil. Why? Because it suggests that those people who have Knowledge are so stupid that they cannot possibly say anything sensible about it. (even though they have supposedly experienced it) Worse, they are more likely to be so off-base that they will cause some ‘deadly’ repercussions. Maharaji is counting on people giving him the benefit of the doubt and that they will see this ‘warning’ as a demonstration of how ‘seriously’ he takes his job as Master and how he is reproving all his flippant, loose tongued followers who are jeopardising his work and how kind he is to let them play even a tiny little part in his work. No matter how you read it, this is a warning to keep the secrets. I’m probably too generous in my analysis of Maharaji’s words. Here’s what my dear innocent non- premie wife said when I read her the extracts. 'Megalomaniac! Who does he think he is? He’s got this thing called Knowledge. Once you’ve given something to someone, you can’t rule their lives and tell them what to do with it and who they can talk to about it! He wants to control people. He feels threatened and scared.'

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:16:54 (GMT) From: C.G. Email: None To: Patrick Subject: My Take Message:

How can he say that showing you You is his possession? This is crazy talk. C.G.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 16:49:58 (GMT) From: Mary Email: None To: Patrick Subject: Here's the deal Maharaji Message:

'When a lot of the Mahatmas came to the West, they brought with them immeasurable amount of concepts, and it kinda went wild, and there was no stopping it.' The backlash of that, I had to directly bear' You came over here to the good ole US of A and worked a simple con game. It worked well. You married an American, got your green card, got citizenship, set up your tax-free duty shop and began to rake in the big bucks. What a great country. Now it is time to pay for your sins. You told us that you were the incarnate of God in Human form. You let us call you the Lord of the Universe, you promised us ever lasting peace. Now you are backpedaling. You are running scared. Yes, Maharaji, YOU did do that. You are not a victim. You are the perpetrator. You have violated us. And now you tell us you can take back our knowledge if you want to. Fine. You are a true Indian Giver. You cannot have mine back, it works fine for me without you. I am out of here.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 19:08:32 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Mary Subject: Maharaji's a disgrace to India Message:

Now a lot of people have come from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh to live in the West. Most of them are not cheap con merchants and most intergrate very well into our culture. However, Maharaji does the Indian nation a great injustice. Fact is, whenever I've mentioned Maharaji to the friends I have from the Indian subcontinent, they always talk about maharaji with great dislike for the way he has conned people over here with his brand of Eastern religion. In India there are many more like him. He got a foothold because he was the child guru. Most Indian people here see these gurus as being just money makers and sharks who seek out unsuspecting naive Westerners to make a killing.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:25:12 (GMT) From: C.G. Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Gives E.Indians a bad name Message:

Dear Sir Dave & All, This is really true. Only last Saturday someone was telling me of an Indian salesman who was a really nice guy but no-one would trust him because they associated him with E.Indian tricksters. This poor guy had lost his business and his family were having tough times because of it. The Headmaster at my child's school is E. Indian and I'm even beginning to think he's just in it for the money whereas before I used to like all E.Indians because they were like M (Yuk!) This is unfortunate. C.G.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 21:10:33 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Sir Dave: Maharaji's a disgrace to the planet! nt Message:

mm

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 17:37:18 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Mary Subject: Here's the deal Maharaji--great post! Message:

A true ''Indian Giver.'' I don't like the expression, but for goomraji, it fits fine, seeing he's from the country India. It isn't just knowledge he threatens to withhold, the deeper implication, and old premies know it, is that he has their lives in his control. What a con artist is right. So, Maharaji, stuck in your delusions of grandeur? Well, we all know your opulent lifestyle is real, what about who you are, M? Do you have the tiniest clue? You are a pathetic example of a human being, and that's a stretch. You never said you were to be worshipped as Lord. 'kay, cheater and Deceiver. 'member, lord, when you dressed up as Krishna and wore that crown??? Btw, where is your crown, Maharaji? What happened to those precious stones? I ask because you'd better start counting your precious stash of expensive stuff, there's a few Jagdeo victims who remain uncompensated. Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 17:19:28 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Mary Subject: Spot on, a true Indian Giver! nt Message:

You can keep it

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 13:15:19 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Patrick Subject: My take on your take. Brilliant Message:

Hi Patrick That’s pretty much exactly what I thought, but I could never have articulated it so brilliantly. You did a good job. And isn’t it all so blatantly, glaringly obvious? Well it is now! I’ve been wondering what a fully dedicated, fully deluded premie would say about it all. I know one who said “ it was wonderful, he made it all so clear.” Whaaat? Well, he certainly made things clear to me! They would probably say that I’ve taken these extracts out of context and that you need to hear the rest of it, like where he says “I don’t want to put words in your mouth.” etc. etc….. In fact this particular satellite broadcast was the most heavily edited and cut to pieces I have ever seen. You can’t trust anything so crudely and obviously assembled. But that’s what they do all the time at Visions. So that is why I stressed that the passages I transcribed were straight uncut sequences, and when I missed a bit I said so. The whole broadcast was full of similar dreadful rubbish and riddled with contradictions. I’m used to him contradicting himself but here he was doing it in the next breath almost. Here is another extract:- Maharaji…. “Let me put it very simply. Are you, in your own self, content with not having to define Maharaji? Maharaji is Maharaji. So how comfortable are you with not having to define Maharaji? That’s the real question, are you comfortable with that? Because if you’re not, you’re gonna sit half way, half baked, between the belief system and what Knowledge needs. Until that happens, the history can never really be cleared up, because it still lives in that era. The shade of darkness still looms” Joe, who posted below, asked “what the hell is he talking about?” and he’s right, you have to be very familiar with the way he talks, or you don’t get all the implications. But here, I really am stumped! “Maharaji is Maharaji” What the hell is he talking about? Perhaps you can interpret? If your friend seriously wants to study this further, I could send you a copy of the tape. All the best Kelly

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:14:58 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Kelly Subject: My Take Message:

He is saying the same bullshit he always did, and here is my take on it. When he says. Are you, in your own self, content with not having to define Maharaji? Maharaji is Maharaji. So how comfortable are you with not having to define Maharaji? That’s the real question, are you comfortable with that? This is the new version of his old commandment to NEVER LEAVE ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND. When it comes to Maharaji, accept everything, never judge, never think, never evaluate, just surrender. And if you aren't comfortable with not using your brain, you are a failure. This is cult, cult, cult, language. If you doubt, think or evaluate, it all falls apart, because, since he isn't offering anything except a personality cult, it can't stand up to the light of day if you look at it objectively. Because if you’re not, you’re gonna sit half way, half baked, between the belief system and what Knowledge needs. Until that happens, the history can never really be cleared up, because it still lives in that era. The shade of darkness still looms” This is the new version of 'rotting vegetables' and 'breaking into a thousand pieces,' which were his threats of doom that will happen to a premie who has the gall to think, notice the contradictions, listen to their own better judgment, etc. But it is funny to think that Maharaji actually believes that if you just don't talk about Maharaji, that all the stuff he said and did in his Lord of the Universe period will go away. You really are an idiot Maharaji if you think that's true. The only possible way that Maharaji can deal with his very embarrassing past is to face it, take responsbility for it, and answer the hard questions he avoids by just telling everyone not to think.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:39:45 (GMT) From: C.G. Email: None To: Joe Subject: Equating M with K - big mistake! Message:

This wrong equasion is what makes M millions of U.S. dollars every year, and he's sticking to it even though he KNOWS it's wrong. The reason he is sticking to this one and not changing it is because he has become addicted to the Hi life. And no, premies I don't mean the High Life I mean that phoney Hi life that is dependent on stuff, things, toys and hi- consumerism that we all get fed up with at Christmas time. Every day is like this consumer Xmas for M. He's become a couch potato watching ads on T.V. That's why he needs to send out auto knowledge tapes to the motley crew that are wanting 'his ' Knowledge. C.G.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 09:41:13 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Thanks Kelly - here's what I think. Message:

Maharaji…. “Let me put it very simply. Are you, in your own self, content with not having to define Maharaji? Maharaji is Maharaji. So how comfortable are you with not having to define Maharaji? That’s the real question, are you comfortable with that? Because if you’re not, you’re gonna sit half way, half baked, between the belief system and what Knowledge needs. Until that happens, the history can never really be cleared up, because it still lives in that era. The shade of darkness still looms” I think this is more obfuscating on M's part. Firstly he suggests that one should not define Maharaji. The alternate to one having clear understanding, definition of Maharaji's role in one's mind, would seem to be to have a 'belief' that he is beyond such definition. I can't see how there is a more appropriate word than 'belief' for this acceptance of him being something so Godlike. That is clearly what he says we need - silent acceptance of everthing he says, does, and suggests we do. Then he conversely tries to suggest that Knowledge doesn't need a 'belief system', so we're back to having an understanding of him, which surely needs some sort of definition. The 'darkness looming' bit is not clearly explained, so as a warning of dire consequences should one disagree, it would seem to have been said mainly to bear weight only through intimidation- not through clear explanation. I think this is called 'bluster'. “Maharaji is Maharaji” Again he is simply stressing that he can do whatever he likes - he claims that he is beyong the limiting definitions which the world would restrictingly put upon him. Hence he can behave as he wishes, demand that his followers accept whatever conditions he wishes and is basically is beyond normal judgement. That is the only interpretation is it not? Most people would agree that this is meglamaniacal talk. Some may say that either he is God or he is a megalomanic. (depending on their belief in God in the first place). I think even these people tend to think that his lack of kindness and partiality to intimidation amongst many other things, suggest that he is the latter. Would God be arrogant?! Would God choose to manifest particularly through a man with such human weakness? If your friend seriously wants to study this further, I could send you a copy of the tape. I think you can hold fire on that now, but thanks for the offer. I'll let you know if he expresses an interest, however I think he is too busy with other things right now.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 04:00:32 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Kelly Subject: 'Don't define Maharaji' Message:

Kelly: Thanks so much for posting this garbage. I never go to the EV sites or read any premie stuff because I do not want to pollute my mind with it. But these excerpts from M's speeches are so telling. His comments are pretty scary to me. I guess he said this stuff when I was an ardent premie and I embraced it wholeheartedly. Now it sounds downright frightening. It seems to me that what M is saying here is just another version of 'Never leave room for doubt in your mind'. He is telling the premies that it is improper for them to have any expectations whatsoever about the propriety of his behavior. To do so would be to 'define' him; the consequence of which is to remain 'half baked' in your realization of knowledge, doomed to darkness. In other words, the penalty for trying to 'define' M is that you will never realize knowledge. Sort of like being threatened with being cast out of the Garden of Eden, isn't it? Kelly, maybe we can watcth this when I get over to Europe. Since you have the Lord of the Universe video, we can watch that too. I am in it, for a fleeting second. It's about 7 minutes into the video I think. I'm carrying a banner with several other people. I am short, have long brown hair with my bangs pulled back, and there is a very tall guy next to me who is waving at the crowd. I was on Soul Rush and then ended up at Millennium. Ah, what a debacle! Take care, Kelly. Keep those posts coming. Marianne

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 22:55:18 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Marianne Subject: I saw you! Message:

Hi Marianne, I saw you for a split second!!Will I recognise you now?!You look so young and sweet! I just told curious george! he could get my e-mail from you, could you send his to me. Yeah it would be good to watch this stuff with you, I look forward to seeing you soon. love kelly

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:16:59 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Kelly Subject: I saw you! Message:

Kelly: Please send me your email address again and I will give it to Curious George. And yes, that was me you saw. I was a good little ashram resident when that was taken. But, everyone from my ashram went to Millennium, and we were so disappointed, we all came back to the ashram and did acid together. It seemed like the only appropriate response. Talk to you soon. Take care, Marianne

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 20:55:03 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Kelly Subject: My take on ' Maharaji is Maharaji '..... Message:

.......is that he's saying he's God .

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 13:27:52 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Kelly Subject: My take on your take. Brilliant Message:

'Maharaji is Maharaji'....I think this is what is referred to in the study of cult behavior and thought reform as a thought stopper. rawat doesn't want his prisoners continually questioning him and his actions or lack thereof. Thanks for starting this thread...I've finally gotten to the point where I can read his words for what they really are and not hate myself for ever believing he cared about me or any of us.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:09:45 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Patrick Subject: Good on you, mate.Read Patrick's post,premies!(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:00:06 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Patrick Subject: Who Wore The Krishna Outfit? Who Wore The Crown? Message:

Hi Patrick, Nice analysis, thanks. I'm at a point where I think an informed amateur could diagnose this megalomaniac, sociopath, narcissist. He's as mad as a hatter, whatever that means. In the year 2000, with mass technology, the internet, EPO, he thinks he can play the God role again, on video, to muted guests, hosted by mutes. Okay. Get out the duct tape, time to shut the premies up!! While your at it, make sure the guests are not allergic to the duct tape adhesive, we don't want any lawsuits. This not so veiled ''agya,'' which isn't said in hindi, but in his very imitatable way, his very transparent way, is still, giving agya. And the old timers know it. If any of you premies out there think you have doubts, read this site. Cherish your doubts about Maharaji. Those doubts will set you free of him and his grip on your life, which he has no right to control. You don't need him, he's only interested in your money; he doesn't care about you. Read this site, please. And if you can, post here. Though when you post here, remember, this site is predicated upon the realization of ex-premies that EV/Maharaji is a personality cult. Maharaji is so dependent upon his delusions he doesn't even have the pride nor dignity to realize how pathetic it is to beg for money under the transparent guise of being a teacher or master or God with rich ''grateful'' devotees, (cough) I mean friends. What a perfectly pathetic asshole. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 19:40:21 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Of Krishna Crowns and Arti Message:

Yes, Cynthia, the Krishna Crown and mala outfits are a good thing to mention here. I would also remind people of some of the lyrics to Arti, sung AT MAHARAJI'S DIRECTION by all ashram residents in every ashram, early in the morning before meditation, and after satsang every evening (and at programs, see below), such as: 'You are my mother, you are my father' 'You are riches, you are wisdom, you are my all, my Lord to me' 'Our Lord's the Superior Power in P erson, I bow down before such a wonderful Lord' This scapegoating of the Lord of the Universe thing onto the mahatmas really gets me going. One of the most covert and insidious forms of verbal abuse is to BLAME the victim for the abuse. M is here trying to scapegoat the mahatmas for the 'concepts' they brought over, and everybody else, gullible idiots that we were, bought. He is then BLAMING us for buying the crap which the mahatmas supposedly invented. What gall! I would just like to point out that Maharaji himself, knowingly and calculatedly, perpetrated this fraud on us all, NOT the mahatmas! They were the biggest victims of all, actually, having surrendered their entire lives to him and then been used to perpetrate his nonsense onto an innocent world. The festivals at which ARTI was directly sung to Maharaji after his talk were stage-managed by him to the most minute detail. I know this because I used to be part of Shri Hans Productions and M's official transcriber, during the super-devotional years in the late 70s. As such I somehow managed to get the service of typing up a song list for him for these programs, something I was very willing to do since it netted me a front row seat. I used to go out and buy the fanciest, most expensive leather-type three-ring binder with gold corners that the stationery store had, bring along some expensive bond paper and a three-hole punch, and either find or have rented a selectric typewriter for this purpose at each festival. Then the bands would submit the songs they had lined up to play, and these were meticulously typed up on the precious bond paper, inserted into the fancy binder and then trotted backstage by a PAM once M was in the building. He himself chose exactly what songs were to be played, and when. He was in touch with a sound panel of guys at stage right or left with headsets who directed the bands what and how to play and when to cut it short as he was about to enter. To imply that Arti, the main song sung to him for so many years as he sat on that thrown wearing the Krishna Crown and mala, was a bunch of concepts perpetrated by the mahatmas is completely ludicrous! To repeat, Maharaji stage-managed every single moment of those shows, and no doubt still does. The fact that he had the darshan line recently at Amaroo (interesting that it was out in the outback, far from civilization's prying eyes -- shades of Jonestown) tells me that he still believes this lie, as do most of his followers. And also that he has Arti still played instrumentally at programs (or events, whatever they're called these days), while the old-timers bliss out shows that he still consciously and knowingly perpetrates this lie to this day. After all, it is a very lucrative lie. Why should he give it up if he can still get jet planes and yachts and mansions out of it? I just had to write this down, as a response to M's blaming of the victims of his cult and once again shirking responsibility for his own actions, adding insult on top of injury. To trivialize this Arti/Krishna Crown/Lord of the Universe thing as mere concepts is ridiculous and yet another attempt by M to weasel out of coming clean and owning up. P.S. Thanks to Patrick for all the research and work you put into these posts!

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 13:59:19 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Who Wore The Krishna Outfit? Who Wore The Crown? Message:

Hi Cynthia and Everybody, It's raining for the second day and very unseasonably warm here in NJ. Early Sunday morning, one kid is out at an overnight, the other one sleeping off a cold, wife is walking some dogs. So I thought I'd pop in and see what's up... When Maharaji was asked way back if he was God, I recall him being quoted as saying that he was 'a humble servant of God'. Your very pointed question about who wore the Krishna garb makes me think back. In my experience, as recently as the early 80's - that would make him at least in his late 20's or early 30's, above the age of reason - he was dancing in the mala and crown in Miami while the local Krishna folks were having kiniption fits waitng for him to vaporize or something for wearing such trappings, while meanwhile the premies were in rapture. (I wonder how much Krishna spit the premies ate at the local Krishna restaurant in Miami beach back then as we sat there and gave satsang to each other as we feasted on fine vegetarian cuisine as the local devotees fumed as they smiled and served us...) I just don't see how he can put all that spiritual misunderstanding on all the rest of his staff and not include himself for perpetuating some of it. Remember that story he used to tell about the land where they exiled the king to a desolate place after a while and replaced him with a new one? And then one clever guy came along who was made king and commanded during his reign that the desolate exile place be all set up with everything one would need to live a comfortable life, so that when he would be tossed into exile he would be very comfortable? Is that what is going on do ya think in Amaroo and other places? The northern hemisphere is pretty much shot biomass-wise, and most of his land holdings are south of the equator, or at least far away from the industrialized and poisoned mess. He may truly be onto something, regardless of anything else going on. I am just hanging onto my basic belief in a benevolent supreme being, trying to live the golden rule and be a good householder and provider for my family, and watching the wheels go round and round....I still think the he carries some heavy juice with him, and still think that perhaps we 'mortals' (tongue in cheek) don't know the whole length and breadth of the Master game as played on earth. Some of it certainly blows away some basic ideas and ideals I have always held true. I have granted myself a mental hiatus from having to make any cosmic determinations for while (that is allowed), and am just enjoying the season for a bit. I like this time of year because people open up more, in the 2000 year wake of the manifestation of Love made flesh. And even if he did not exist as some here claim, my hat is off to whoever created the idea of such a person and set the bar where they did for human potential, behavior and conduct. Sandy

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 21:36:07 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: shp Subject: Cult leaders and S hemisphere hidy holes. Message:

According to an article I've just read in 'The Tablet' (a highbrow English Catholic periodical) , the rev.moon has bought , I quote ...... '4,000 square kilometres at Puerto Casado , a river port in the Chaco area of north-west Paraguay'. The journalist who went there to investigate was totally baffled as to why . Must be the latest fashion accessory for the god who has everything eh ? Happy Hannukah/Christmas.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 04:09:13 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Bin Liner Subject: WHAT??? Message:

Bin, could you email me the information about Moon's land purchase in Paraguay? I'd like to read about it, look at a map, and do some research. It makes me think of Jonestown. Thanks, Marianne

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 21:53:13 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Here's the internet address in case Message:

anyone else is interested. www.thetablet.co.uk/feature.cgi I'll email it to you as well , as this thread is close to inactive.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 22:21:17 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: Cult leaders and S hemisphere hidy holes. Hi Bin.. Message:

It must be an awful existence, when you boil it all down, to have the capacity, and cajones--I can't think of a perfect word to describe--to become a cult leader and have so much power over people that they give all the money you request and you get everything in this materialist world you want, and then, what?????? A love-less life, I'd guess. This impending ''doom'' tactic in cults seems to be a cyclic thing when: 1) Money is running out; and/or 2) Paranoia has set in so much that the cult leader, our ex-lord, of course, Maharaji, starts in with the not so subtle ''heavy satsang,'' threatening to withhold himself, knowledge (as if he hasn't always done that), scaring people stuck in a cult into what? That Amaroo place sounds creepier the more I hear about it now that I'm an ex-premie. However, the last time I spoke with true believing premies, and I was one once, it was discussed how wonderful it would be for all the premies to just move down under to Amaroo and fuck the world. Make a Majaraji World theme park, I guess, with slave labor, lack of good nutrition, but of course, daily DARSHAN!! I wonder what it's like there. Just curious..... Love, Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:18:38 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Darshan is the draw of Amaroo , you're right Message:

I've never been there myself & don't know anything about the place apart from what I've read here. A couple of premie friends of mine are intending to visit it sometime next year as part of an extended tour of the Far East/South Pacific. When they get back I'll have a 1st hand account. If their visit coincides with fatso showing up I expect a glowing report , if not any wierdness about the place will be down to .....the premies of course. Their only reason for going is the possibility of DARSHAN & if it's not available they'll be outta there pronto. Seems to me it's getting to be like a leisure option for some people .... you can afford a long weekend helicopter skiing , but as a premie getting darshan is a bigger blast. I only hope Rawat ends up like Santa Claus , but stuck in his grotto for 365 , dependent on handouts from those spiritual tourists he never managed to separate from their wallets. Happy Christmas

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 08:51:44 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: Amaroo event next April Message:

Apparently there was a telephone conference call last Friday about the future of satellite broadcast, it's gonna be 24 hours a day aaaaarh! The call was a discussion between Yorum Weiss, Ray Belcher and Carol Somebody (an instructor) Yorum said that everything is set for a big event in April, with accomodation on the land for 2,500 premies. He also( I was told)said it would be very expensive!!! I have been there and it really is a beautiful place,and I did get darshan, but I won,t be going back! Oh and buy the way M apparently is going to have auto K translated into 60 languages and he's going to record himself reading it thus pepetuating the illusion that it comes directly from him! what a Fraud! love kelly

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 12:54:28 (GMT) From: mary Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Amaroo...BYOD Message:

Bring your own Dixie Cup

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 00:35:41 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Kelly Subject: What the hell is he talking about? Message:

I know his 'it's all due to the Master' bullshit, but what is all that crap about? I also know his line about 'knowledge' working and all, which is also bullshit, ('knowledge' is not four meditation techniques, it's the experience you get by belonging to a personality cult), but what is that all about 'it' being 'incredibly dangerous', and what 'shoes' does he not want to be in, and there is more of 'them' than who? I get the sense that he is trying to scare of shit out of his followers, just like Maharaji always did, but he is incoherent as usual. Can a fairly recent premie translate? How can anyone listen to that garbage and not see what and idiotic megalomaniac Maharaji is? And one that doesn't even make any sense. It just amazes me that he would even have the gall to do a video on how to introduce people to knowledge. He has been trying to do it for 30 years in the west and he has been a miserable failure, despite spending gazillions of dollars in the process. How can anyone think he even has any crediblity, let alone any talent or ability in telling other people how to do it, when he has failed utterly at doing it himself?

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 00:24:50 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Knowledge works , he said Message:

& he's right in that regard ,fuck him , at least for me. I sit down & do it sometimes when I'm feeling unsettled or whatever , & it makes me feel better . This is the hold he's had over me for the greater part of my life. Using a caveman trick to make a living by. I've no idea what K might be. It could be a built in mechanism by which one can experience the divine , or not. Whatever it is ,it's something , & something which Rawat has exploited for gain. Many many times in my career as a premie I've thought 'who is this guy' , 'what is this shit' , & always it's come back to , 'well it works , so he must be ok'. Only the information available on this site has enabled me to find out that Rawat is a total fucker & not a master . Fuck all masters/gurus/enlightened ones/priests/prophets/rabbis/mullahs/shamans/touchy feely motherfuckers. Unless they have the humility to say , 'it's not really me'. & even then be wary. Can't remember the exact quote , but someone once said , 'the biggest lies are built on a little bit of truth'. ps. I don't think premies are stupid enough to drink Kool Aid.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 14:56:14 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: All meditation works Message:

Hi Bin I think that's the 'key frame' here, to coin a phrase! I really do believe that all roads lead to Rome. Knowledge doesn't work.....You work! It's your sincerity and conscious effort that puts you in touch with you. I had a thought just now about that old story that M used to tell about the elephant and the blind people who each had a hold on a different part of the elephant (for elephant, read truth) so they each describe it differently. Well I think that M has got hold of the trunk, which is the most obvious and most unique and defining aspect of the truth, but only an aspect. So,we have the age old situation of the blind leading the blind! But let's not forget that the trunk is part of the elephant. I just feel very glad that my eyes are now wide open. (I hope!) Love Kelly

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 21:02:26 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: Kelly Subject: One person's reaction. Message:

This stuff speaks volumes to me about where Maharaji is coming from. It would appear that even to someone who is relatively unfamiliar with Maharaji , what he says here is extremely telling. I was just about to compose my own analysis of what Maharaji said when I was interrupted by a phone call from an associate whose opinions I have learned to respect and whom I find to be an intelligent and thoughtful man. I read the extracts aloud to him over the telephone. His unexpurgated reaction is below. He seemed to think that these extracts were interesting enough to merit some further analysis, later. My friend is very interested in human behaviour – he is a doctor of philosophy or something, and I think he senses that Maharaji’s words express something extraordinary and quite rare which he would like to study! Maharaji… 'Knowledge, and all things associated with it, are compliments of the Master. The Master doesn’t want knowledge sessions to happen, Guess what? They’re not happening. The Master changes the rules, creates the rules, disposes of these rules, as the Master wishes. The possibility of knowledge is brought to you by the compliments of your friendly Master. (laughter and applause) Now, I’m not getting into the logistics of it OK? I understand it is the people who are interested make many of these things a physical reality. But, the key frame here is, compliments.the Master says, yes this is OK to do, you may talk about knowledge, you may not talk about knowledge. Both have to be taken with the same stride. If you’re borrowing your neighbour’s car, the neighbour says yes you may drive it, then one day he may say ..No you may not drive it, I want my car back. You have to realize….Ownership of knowledge resides with the Master…Hearing about knowledge is a privilege….Being able to talk about knowledge is a privilege, it’s not a right, it’s a privilege. …Receiving knowledge is a privilege…Being able to practice knowledge is a privilege…..Being able to participate is a privilege.' (Audience of invited guests nodding and smiling). My friend's reaction: I'm glad there's an FBI to keep an eye on people like him. Anyone who makes it a sentient tenet of their activity that they control the freedom of people to think and discuss their ideas sounds most sinister and unwelcome in the modern age. Only a fool would take him seriously. If he says 'You are supposed to drink poison' should you do so? Does he need uncritical, silently assenting sheep or does he want to join in the free exchange of development of ideas that we have found so rewarding in modern civilisation? What’s he afraid of? What he says is a combination of obscurity and bombast with whiffs of aggression and arrogance that is so often characteristic of greedy, frightened people. I’ve never heard such patently nasty, sinister, intimidating rubbish. More later.

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 21:16:46 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Patrick Subject: Patrick, great post... Message:

Hi Patrick, The part you quoted: If he says 'You are supposed to drink poison' should you do so? Does he need uncritical, silently assenting sheep or does he want to join in the free exchange of development of ideas that we have found so rewarding in modern civilisation? was very chilling. In no way does Maharaji show any signs of wanting anything but to completely fill his extremely self-serving and expensive appetite and calling them his life's goals. Which puts it quite lightly, actually, because the more I learn about M the more I fear he may go off, as it were, and perhaps pull a Jim Jones, or at least start isolating premies. He's done that in one way already by the gag order. Amaroo, anyone? No joke, this cult leader is playing in desparate times. Scary stuff, Best, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 14:17:17 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Death as an alternative.... Message:

In my cultural background to the best of my knowledge, the only mass suicide that was sanctioned by the leaders was at a place called Masada in Israel. The Romans were banging heads and taking names, planning to rape the women and enslave the men and children. So the elders slit the throats of their families and then did themselves, as an alternative to a life of slavery and a total loss of their true cultural identities, being totally assimilated into the Roman culture. This event has been glamorized and raised to a very high place in the popular culture. There was a TV movie with Peter Strauss and Peter O'Toole. If they had Kool-aide back then, they would have probably used it. Who can say what is right and wrong with 20/20 hindsight in the here and now? Everybody has to decide what is worth living and dying for. May all our decisions in this realm be easy ones. Sandy

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:56:40 (GMT) From: Curious George Email: None To: All Subject: Actor =Jesus - Miragey = Krishna Message:

How could we have all been so stupid? When I first saw M in a Krishna Suit In London, U.K. I didn't like what I saw but being as so many other people were 'getting off' on it and I had just travelled all the way to India to see the boychild, I thought there was something wrong with me. That's how we were and still are made to feel by those phoney 'mahatmas' encouraged of course by the master illusionist Miragey. C.G.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 18:43:37 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: shp Subject: Death as an alternative.... Message:

... to changing one's beliefs and accomodating to what is? Surely not! There's a modern Zen story about this kind of issue. During WW2, a Buddhist Temple had been overrun by Japanese troops (incidently, Buddhism qua Zen is the national religion of Japan). The troops were running short of ammunition, and wished to take the gold plated lead statue of the Buddha. The plan was to melt it down and cast bullets from the lead. Well, the Abbot was appalled by the thought. He flatly refused to allow such murderous sacriledge. The courageous man placed himself foursquare in front of the Buddha and flatly refused to allow the troops to remove it. So they shot him, took the statue, and melted it down for ammo in any case. Perhaps from a traditional 'one way with one God' perspective (Judeo/Christian/Islamic) the Abbot's action would be commended. One can imagine the story told to emphasise the Abbot's devotion to the one true Lord and the Abbot's amazing self-sacrificing bravery. Rather puts Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son to the Lord in the shade, wouldn't you say? But when I was told the story, the Zen Monk reviled the Abbot for his stupid act of self-murder! It was obvious what the troops would do and the Abbot's actions simply resulted in one more death (his own) for no good reason. We are not our beliefs, so to die for them is remarkably stupid - an act of deluded attachment to the inessential. After all, while we live, we may change our minds! Of course, one may (in my view anyway) quite properly choose to die in relative dignity rather than in sordid butchery and suffering a la Massada, or whatever. But that's a different issue.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 16:16:05 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Life as a priority Message:

Hi JohnT, Personally, I would try to stay alive at just about all costs to outlive the problem at hand, whatever it might be. Sandy

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 18:50:11 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Death as an alternative...Hmmmm! Message:

Hmmmm.... death is not an alternative!

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 21:27:00 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Patrick, great post...I agree Message:

I agree with Patrick's friend and you Cynthia, It is seriously sinister. love kelly

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 18:10:06 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Miragey's recent diatribe Message:

Hi Kelly. How are you doing? I'm packing for my trip across the pond! Getting more excited about it every day. Thanks for posting that. One thing is certain: Miragey reads the forum all the time. These comments are in direct response to things that are said here. He's trying to blame the mahatmas for the organizational past, for his own past. Nice guy, huh? Can't take responsibility for his own actions, can he? What a jerk. Then, he's also telling people that he's the one who controls what can and cannot be said about knowledge. That's something I'm going to file away for future reference. He's really trying to intimidate the premies about what they say about knowledge. These comments are pretty scary, but they are also very interesting from a legal point of view. Thanks again, Kelly. Marianne

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 05:56:30 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Prem Rawat (also Marianne Subject: US citizen/resident m. vs. First Amendment rts. Message:

So, how did he get U.S. residency or citizenship -- if he can't even respect basic freedom of speech? Fascist hypocrisy. You have to study the basic principles of the Constitution and agree to respect freedom of speech, press, and religion etc. in order to get US citizenship. (He used my innocent devoted friend Marolyn to stay in the USA - poor dear.) 1973: 'Spread this Knowledge to everyone' -- yeah, right! Now, his message is essentially 'shut the fuck up, premies (and others).' To paranoid Maharaji: you sound like a fucking little Hitler now. Can't you even see it, deluded dude, - or are you too blinded by your little Napoleon ego?! You have royally fucked up, buster. Sarupanand ji would be rolling over in his grave. If you don't even respect others' freedom of speech, then get the hell out of America, Australia, UK, Europe, India, etc. and go where you belong -- like Iraq, for instance. [After checking your astrology chart, I'd say your moon is in Uranus right now - dung beetles, indeed!] Understand this, kiddo: If you weren't a selfish, money-grubbing greedy guru - this EPO wouldn't ever have existed! Remember 'no cheat, no deceit?' The truth shall set them free, too. [the other premies and aspirants] Looking forward to State of California vs. Prem Rawat, United States of America vs. Rawat, Her Majesty the Queen vs. Prem Rawat, class action criminal felony conspiracy charges, etc. and especially God Almighty vs. Prem Rawat. Good Advice to Maharaji - do the Krishnamurti now, and save your rich butt (if that's even possible). Time is running out; the clock is ticking... You're not serving God; you're just serving yourself, appropriating teachings that are not yours to hoard. You even fucked up your own mission. Yes, it's your fault, dude - not the premies, not the ex-premies -- yours alone. So, take the heat. The buck stops with you, mister! WAKE UP, PREMIES. WAKE UP, EVERYBODY! Peace, P.S. Marianne, you leaving to cross the pond? sent you 2nd email. wassup?

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 21:19:06 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Did you hear the one about the frog in the well ? Message:

and he met a frog from a pond? well, is your pond this big?? This may be lost on you because you've been out for a few years!! but Miragey has told it over and over ad infinitum, and he always tells it so badly. Anyway, give me a call when you get to my side of the pond! love kelly

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 19:06:55 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Miragey's recent diatribe Message:

Hi Kelly and Marianne, I've heard that tone, those raised eyebrows, his pompous way of owning everything and owing nothing to the ''recipients'' of HIS precious special K. My thoughts are that he is doing a few things here. He's telling the old time premies to stop talking like they did in the 70s (even in private without newbies or aspirants around); he's reminding every premie true believer that he can go away forever, which could be very scary for a devotee--and it's not a very veiled threat. The censorship is amazing. M's also telling FV posters, those on-the-fence who post or read here, plus the on-the-fence PAMs, that there will be big, dangerous trouble if they talk. I wonder what the legal ramifications are of even a non-profit organization censoring it's members. Are they not also bound by the 1st Amendment? Or is this megalomaniac just getting away with, well, murder (in a figurative sense, of course). I agree with Marianne, he's is a super jerk. Love, Cynthia

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