Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 16:19:08 (GMT)
From: Dec 11, 2000 To: Dec 21, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


Joe -:- Question for Michael Dettmers...... -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 23:19:28 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Nasty Jokes -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 16:58:57 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- So Tell Us The Joke Already -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 18:13:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- So Tell Us The Joke Already -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 10:13:56 (GMT)
__ Buzz -:- reply from Delhi Ashram -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 06:44:05 (GMT)
__ __ Curious George -:- Reply from Bal Bhagwanji's site -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 20:34:53 (GMT)
__ __ suchabonanza -:- If guru is not true, the maya will enmesh him! (nt -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 10:06:19 (GMT)

Jerry -:- This one's for you, Scott (ot) -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:07:12 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- This one's for you, Scott (ot) -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 00:35:15 (GMT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- This one's for you, Scott (ot) -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 20:06:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- I believe in Santana (ot) -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 16:05:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- I dont believe in Miragey (ot) -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 01:16:09 (GMT)

Salam -:- Question to Michael Dettmer -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 14:31:14 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- My response -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:01:47 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- Remember Michael Bergman,DLM treasurer? his email -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 01:29:24 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- My Response -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 16:57:51 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Thank yo Micheal -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:06:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Phyllis confirms Michaels' reply Salam (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 10:23:08 (GMT)
__ sb -:- What happens with...OT -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 21:59:33 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- What happens with...OT -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:03:09 (GMT)

JTF -:- More proof of internal decay of rawat cult -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:26:23 (GMT)
__ True Ex-premie -:- Good for her!! ...if she did split -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 21:50:36 (GMT)
__ __ Malibu Mole -:- If you want to try and contact her... -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 00:21:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ True Ex-premie -:- If you want to try and contact her... -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 03:02:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- If you want to try and contact her... -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 00:38:37 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Terry also worked... -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 16:23:28 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- I used to get instructions from her -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:07:50 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- We ain't seen nothing yet. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:46:18 (GMT)
__ __ Gail -:- Hey AJW! -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 23:41:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Cha, cha cha cha cha cha... -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 10:34:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Curious George -:- Glad to hear more info coming -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 21:48:27 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Ford Greene - anti-cult lawyer -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 15:17:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Ford Greene - my friend -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:19:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- Ford Greene - my friend -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 09:42:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Class Action Suit -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:54:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Class Action Suit -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 21:52:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Class Action Suit -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 21:32:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Hello Marianne and everyone -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 09:54:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Can I have a quickie -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 01:41:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- I agree, no time now, c2it later? -:- Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 19:12:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Go away -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 16:14:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Sorry Salam -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 23:18:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Liz -:- Final Drip -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:47:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Final Splash -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 10:39:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Gail -:- Final Drip--has your friend also left the cult? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 21:19:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ FeRfEl -:- Final Flight of Captain Rawat? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:39:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Liz -:- Final Flight of Captain Rawat? -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 21:52:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- WICKED!!! Haahahaha! 'Say cheese' (toasted) (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 18:49:02 (GMT)

Abraham Logon -:- 'It's too bad.... -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:14 (GMT)
__ Gail -:- 'It's too bad the US had to beat around the Bushes -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 15:47:38 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- Peewee Herman:'A bird in the Bush is better than 2 -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 03:12:35 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- 'It's too bad the US had to beat around the Bushes -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:04:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- London Times 12/15/00 on the decline of the USA -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 18:11:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- American Century and complex tecnology -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 16:48:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Gee, why do we never see anything like that ? -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:20:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Gee, why do we never see anything like that ? -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 20:51:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- anything like that -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 16:57:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- anything like that -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 21:49:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gail -:- Are you kidding, Joe. It's colder than a witch's -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 23:26:29 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- You've forgotten your meds again, Abe. (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 15:14:17 (GMT)

Curious George -:- David Mancroft description please -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 07:02:05 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- David Mancroft description please -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:09:24 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Yoram Weiss -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:31:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Yoram Weiss -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:57:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Yoram Weiss -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:50:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Curious George -:- Yoram Weiss (I'm shaking too!) -:- Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 22:01:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Yoram Weiss -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 17:19:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Oh Anth, that is so true -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 06:55:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Is Yoram married? -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 17:23:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Is Yoram married? -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 17:40:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Married to the Mob -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 18:57:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ A regular on this site -:- Married to the Mob -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:52:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- What's a G3...? -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:17:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Baza -:- What's a G3...? -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 02:54:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- You just fragged the bastard , well done (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 00:09:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hi Kelly, can you explain? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:07:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Hi Kelly, can you explain? -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 17:02:04 (GMT)
__ janet -:- you mean Dave Mankhoff -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:07:56 (GMT)
__ __ Bert -:- you mean Dave Mankhoff -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:36:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ C.G. -:- you mean Dave Mankhoff -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:00:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ex-True Premie -:- But when he travel around... -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 03:10:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Did you actually hear the conference call? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:09:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ C.G. -:- Hi Joe -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:16:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- You mean you have to PAY for a fundraising call? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:17:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Yeah, then Yoram bores you into giving m. shekels -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:01:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ C.G. -:- You mean you have to PAY for a fundraising call? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:36:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- It's David Mankoff and his... -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 15:58:56 (GMT)

Peter Howie -:- one lot of Implication's of Jugdeo's stuff -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:24:28 (GMT)
__ Mr. Bill -:- Another cringe: How a biker family did justice -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:36:12 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Are they still on the loose? -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 00:40:23 (GMT)

Mr. Free -:- M's Phone # anyone? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:47:37 (GMT)
__ C.G. -:- M's Phone # anyone? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:11:15 (GMT)
__ Mirror -:- M's Phone # anyone? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:51:45 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Bill -:- M's Phone # anyone? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 05:10:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mirror -:- M's Phone # anyone? * -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 05:50:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nazi thought control cop -:- M's Phone # anyone? * -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:30:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mirror -:- M's Phone # anyone? * -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:53:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ C.G. -:- I do have M's phone Number (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:50:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Free -:- I do have M's phone Number (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 07:36:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Free -:- M's Phone # anyone? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 05:15:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mirror -:- M's Phone # anyone? (asks the fool) -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 05:30:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ a voice offstage -:- is mr. godot here today -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:17:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Edgy -:- Is this the EPO Witch Project? nt -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:49:30 (GMT)

Aussi Ji -:- Open to thoughts on this -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:28:30 (GMT)
__ Lesley -:- Make that paranoid pompous ass -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:24:47 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Open to thoughts on this -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 12:18:22 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Brainwashing/Programming -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:26:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Aussi JI -:- Brainwashing/Programming -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 00:38:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Not to mention -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 12:24:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Yes great post from Joe -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 10:37:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- grateful -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:29:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Maha And Initiators - Brainwashing Team From Hell -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:09:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- Maha And Initiators - Brainwashing Team From Hell -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 03:22:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- P.S. -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:18:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- P.P.S. -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:50:13 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Gurucharnanand's take on brainwashing -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:43:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Curious George -:- Gurucharnanand's take on brainwashing -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:35:29 (GMT)
__ sam -:- Open to thoughts on this -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:43:37 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- Open to thoughts on this -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:37:59 (GMT)
__ Mirror -:- Open to thoughts on this {not for you} -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:30:07 (GMT)
__ Mirror -:- Open to thoughts on this -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:24:08 (GMT)

Think4yourself -:- Bush talks about his agenda? Not now you jerk! -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:23:28 (GMT)

Mr. Free -:- Life's great -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:15:58 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Life's great -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 06:12:54 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- Yellow, out there! Stoner fruits: pink stinks! (nt -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 09:49:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Does that mean you don't like my joke to Mr. Free? -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 20:34:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ suchaBANANA -:- I hate wussy pink! Can you do forest green? How? -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 03:01:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ annaBANANA -:- E-lec-tri-cal Ba-na-na - and LOL! -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 05:31:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Wriggle wriggle -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 13:07:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Wriggle wriggle (OT) -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 15:07:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sucha -:- r.e. source code, what to change for colors? (nt -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 23:14:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- r.e. source code, what to change for colors? (nt -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 23:59:58 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Get yourself a different coloured pen....... -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:34:30 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Sneaky censorship? Just highlight with mouse(nt) -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:45:34 (GMT)
__ C.G. -:- What ya going to do with that phone number? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:38:43 (GMT)
__ Mirror -:- Life's great 'kissing yourself in a mirror.' -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:07:01 (GMT)
__ __ The babbler -:- Life's great 'kissing yourself in a mirror.' -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:28:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- why dont you send this to MJ just like it is -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:25:42 (GMT)

Scott T. -:- Nary a word. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:24:25 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Nary a word. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:01:32 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- The only people I've seen talking... -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:45:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Hillary and Feinstein are talking about it -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 17:15:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Hillary and Feinstein are talking about it -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 14:25:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- And now Edwin Meese... -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 05:05:13 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- What I forgot to say... -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:03:38 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Nary a word. -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 00:59:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Nary a word. -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 17:06:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Nary a word. -:- Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 14:37:50 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- A word. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:37:19 (GMT)
__ __ Think4yourself -:- A word. [and {more}] -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:56:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- A word. [and {more}] -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:05:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Think4yourself -:- A word. [and {more}] -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:17:14 (GMT)
__ __ Mr Bubblehead -:- Live to ride -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:32:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Live to ride -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 05:53:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mr B -:- Live to ride -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:20:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Live to ride -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 07:09:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mr B -:- Live to ride -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 08:59:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Live to ride -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 15:30:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Live to ride -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:21:39 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Nary a word. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:32:58 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- they both looked like.. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:53:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- they both looked like.. -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 13:47:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- they both looked like.. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 15:33:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Sorry, I thought you said 'youngest' -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 16:02:13 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Nary a word. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:56:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Nary a word. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 05:25:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Nary a word. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:10:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Actually... -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:54:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Actually... -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 13:51:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ brian too -:- Actually...you make -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 07:57:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Just thought of it. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 05:32:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Gray Davis -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:16:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Gray Davis -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:15:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Gray Davis -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:12:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Gray Davis -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 13:54:00 (GMT)
__ __ Brian too -:- Nary a word. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:54:20 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Nary a word. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:52:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ brian too -:- sounds like -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:59:16 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Nary a word. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:45:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Nary a word. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:02:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Nary a word. -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:02:29 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 23:19:28 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Question for Michael Dettmers......
Message:
Thanks again for your comments on so many things, they are extremely helpful as many others have said.

I think your statements about Maharaji as a person are very helpful. Most of us just saw Maharaji as god, never spent any time around him, and only have images of him high up sitting on thrones being worshipped and wearing crowns. So, your first-hand comments are so helpful in breaking through that image.

But I'm not sure how much you want to say about this. So, feel free to say what you can.

I had spoken with Dennis Murphy, who as you know had for some time been Mahraji's cook, that at least back in the 80s, Maharaji was quite homophobic, perhaps coming from his traditional East Indian background. I am curious about this, because I am a gay man myself, and I look back on my almost decade in the ashram as a period of celibate sexual confusion, when I simply repressed all things sexual, and certainly used that to avoid dealing with my orientation. When I was community coordinator in San Francisco in the early 80s, Dennis told me that while he was Maharaji's cook that he often told homophobic jokes (and actually lots of 'off-color' quite offensive jokes of all kinds) and often made fun of gay people. He told me particularly about a really offensive one in which Maharaji joked about AIDS. At the time, I didn't know what to think, although now I consider it extremely offensive. This all came up in connection with doing propogation in the large gay community in San Francisco in about 1982. Any comments on this?

Second, and I don't know if you want to talk about this, but it is a fairly widespread belief among both premies and ex-premies, perhaps based on rumor, or perhaps based on actual information, that Maharaji has had numerous affairs with premies over the years, I think beginning in the early 80s. I think I have already mentioned to you that someone you and I both know personally told me about this in 1986 and was so disgusted about Maharaji's affairs, as well as his drinking problems, that this person (I will call her Brenda) was leaving the cult for good. Since then, people who I think were in a position to know have also confirmed this.

Now, if Maharaji and Marolyn want to have an open marriage and want to have sex outside the marriage, that is their business. But on the other hand, Maharaji is not an ordinary private citizen, he held himself up as the paragon of worship, devotion and perfection, and certainly kept any transgressions, including his dope-smoking and drinking, hidden from the premies as much as he could, while parading around other aspects of his personal life, like his kids, his wife, etc. His image as the perfect father and family man was all part of what he projected to us.

Also, in the 80s I was a celibate ashram resident and knowledge of this would certainly have caused me to evaluate what I was doing. Plus, I think if Maharaji was having sexual affairs with women who were also premies, that opens up the whole abuse possibility, the power situation so to speak, which has been the problem of so many other gurus. I think people need to know if that is going on here. Do you have anything to say about this?

I really believe that information, disclosure, openness of all that is secret about the Maharaji world, is the most valuable for helping people get out of it, and sort it through once they do. So, to the extent you feel comfortable discussing this, it is most appreciated.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 16:58:57 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Nasty Jokes
Message:
Hi Joe,

When I was down at Reigate, somebody told me a disgusting anti-semitic joke, which he claimed the lard had told him. I don't think he would have dared tell it otherwise.

I justified it with, 'Maharaji is beyond everything and can do what he likes. Any discomfort I'm feeling is my own fault, because I'm attached to ideas and stuff.'

Oy Oy Oy. I must have explained away twenty tons of shite to myself before I admitted there was a stink.

Hope all is well in SF.

Anth who remembers the lunch with great pleasure.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 18:13:25 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: So Tell Us The Joke Already
Message:
Come on, big guy, tell us the friggin' joke.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 10:13:56 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: So Tell Us The Joke Already
Message:
I'll email it to you Steve. The email on your post didn't work for some reason.

anth the politically correct.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 06:44:05 (GMT)
From: Buzz
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: reply from Delhi Ashram
Message:
Below is part of a reply to an email I sent to Mr.Tandon in
Prem Nagar ashram.

Shri Hans Ji Maharaj did not declare Balyogeshwar as Satguru nor he bestowed the title on him.

The Guru is not the title. In fact, he says that he is a Satguru. It is the diciples who call him as their Guru. Guru is the enlightened being and manifestation of pure consciousness. He is constant and self evident. Any one can declare himself as Guru. But if he is not true the maya will enmesh him. He is cheating himself and cheating others. If you take Balyogeshwar as perfect master and this is your experience then why are you asking me? It is your own inner self and God's grace that can reveal you the authenticity of the master. But one thing is very clear that Balyogeshwar of seventy was not the same that of 74. There came a change in his behaviour. When his elder brother Satpal Ji Maharaj went to United States for the first time, he made a remark about him that the perfect light has come to the West. He compared him with Christ. I have nothing against Balyogeshwar. If you feel that your spiritual progress is happening and you have know inner conflict then continue with him. If you have doubts as most of the westeners have you must understand where he has faltered.

Shri Satpal Ji Maharaj said about him that he has made perfect mistake and has fallen from the spiritual path. Maharaj Ji respected him because of innate good nature but when he went astray Shri Satpal Ji Maharaj tried his best to mend his ways but when he was adamant he broke the relations with him.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 20:34:53 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Buzz
Subject: Reply from Bal Bhagwanji's site
Message:
I emailed and got the reply. 'Maharaji has become immoral and fallen off the spiritual path. He has gone ASTRAY and we feel no ill feeling towards him except he has gone ASTRAY.'

C.G.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 10:06:19 (GMT)
From: suchabonanza
Email: None
To: Buzz
Subject: If guru is not true, the maya will enmesh him! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:07:12 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: This one's for you, Scott (ot)
Message:
BUSH LEGAL TEAM SUES S. CLAUS
By B.S. Artist
Reuters, AUSTIN, Tx (Dec. 4)

Attorneys for Texas Governor George W. Bush filed suit in federal court today, seeking to prevent Santa Claus from making his list and then checking it twice. The complaint seeks an immediate injunction against the beloved Christmas icon, asking the court to effectively ban his traditional practice of checking the list of good boys and girls one additional time before packing his sleigh. The suit, filed in the Federal District Court of Austin,
Texas, asks a federal judge to 'hereby order Mr. Claus to cease and desist all repetitive and duplicative list-checking activity, and certify the original list as submitted, without amendment, alteration, deletion, or other unnecessary modification.'

'There are no standards for deciding who is naughty, and who is nice. It's totally arbitrary and capricious. How many more times does he need to check? This checking, checking, and re-checking over and over again must stop now,' said former Secretary James Baker. Baker further claimed that unnamed GOP observers witnessed an elf removing all boys named Justin from the 'nice' list, filing them under 'naughty' instead because 'everyone knows all boys named Justin are brats.' Gov. Bush cited the potential for unauthorized list tampering, and blasted what he called the 'crazy, crazy mess up there at the North Pole.' 'Their security is really awful, really bad,' said Bush. 'My mother just walked right in, told 'em she was Mrs. Claus. They didn't check her ID or anything.'

Meanwhile, Dick Cheney, Gov. Bush's running mate, issued a direct plea to St. Nick himself. 'Mr. Claus, I call on you to do the honorable thing, and quit checking your list. The children of the world have had enough. They demand closure now,' Cheney said, adding that his granddaughter has already selected a name for the pony she's asked for. The Rev. Jesse Jackson was quick to respond to this latest development with plans to lead his protesters from Florida to the North Pole via dogsled. The 'Million Man Mush' is scheduled to leave Friday. 'We need red suits and sleighs, not law suits and delays,' Jackson said. Santa Claus could not be reached for comment, but a spokes elf said he was 'deeply distressed' by news of the pending legal action against him. 'He's losing weight, and he hasn't said 'Ho Ho' for days,' said the spokes-elf. 'He's just not feeling jolly.' A weary nation can relate.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 00:35:15 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: This one's for you, Scott (ot)
Message:
Jerry:

Thanks. I forwarded it to my sister.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 20:06:46 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: This one's for you, Scott (ot)
Message:
I finally understand your strong liberal leanings - you still believe in Santa Claus :=)

There was a man and his wife playing golf - the wife sliced the ball and it broke a huge picture window of a house right on the fairway. The husband was distraught and they both walked over to the house where a man was sitting in a mid eastern robe, glass all over the floor and a broken ancient oil lamp. the husband apologized and the resident said 'dont worry I am a genie and have been it that bottle for 2000 years. I will grant you each one wish.' the hus band asked for a million dollars a year - tax free for the rest of his life. the genie granted his wish. The wife asked for a beautiful home in every city in the world. Her wish was granted. Then the genie said 'I haven't had sex in 2000 years and would like you two to grant me the wish having sex this afternoon with your wife' they husband and wife were a little taken back by the request but with all there new gifts they agreed it was worth it. the genie and the wife went upsatirs and the husband sat downstairs and listened to his wifes screams of joy
for 3-4 hours. finally the genie cam downstairs with the wife and thanked them both and wished them well. the husband and wife were leaving and the genie asked how old they were .The husband replied that they were both 38. the genie said 'Amazing, 38 years old and you still believe in genies'

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 16:05:09 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: I believe in Santana (ot)
Message:
Ben:

Cute joke. I think you may be mistaken about the reasons for my 'liberal leaninngs' however.

The essential difference between Republicans and Democrats is not their 'liberalism' or 'conservatism,' which are misapplied terms in US politics. Strictly speaking this is THE Liberal country, with a capital 'L.' The real difference, revealed with extraordinary clarity in this election, is that Republicans favor a republic, while Democrats favor a democracy. If we can build in some safeguards against 'tyranny of the majority,' that don't require some of these anachronistic republican institutions, then I think the future is clearly democratic (small 'd'), and possibly Democratic (large 'D').

The institutionalization of Hayek's 'Principle of Generality' is one way to establish those safeguards, and it's not even on the conventional liberal-conservative scale. So all you're seeing is my shadow on a one-dimensional space, and since the sun was to the west in this election the shadow casts eastward.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 01:16:09 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I dont believe in Miragey (ot)
Message:
Of course we could alter the story a little and it could be 'after 25 years you still believe M is the perfect master(of deception)?'
Sometimes m hurts so bad you feel the same way as that couple - totally screwed.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 14:31:14 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Question to Michael Dettmer
Message:
Am not sure if you are aware of the accusation that is being directed towards you by someone posting as ' Interesting Thing' in the thread below that Anth Started regarding Jagdeo,

And dont try to tell me that if Phyllis (Anths) story is true, then Michael Dettmer did not know about it.

If you are reading this, can you please tells us if, as a high ranking person in DLM/EV, did you knew of the concerns of the co-ordinator regarding J behavior?

Regards,

Salam

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:01:47 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Salam
Subject: My response
Message:
Salam,

The first I ever heard of Jagdeo's crimes was eight or nine months ago shortly after Jim Heller first contacted me about this ex-premie site and soon thereafter put me in touch with Susan. Hearing her story for the first time was the triggering point that began the process of unleashing the pent-up anger and disillusionment about Maharaji and his cult that I had felt but had never publically expressed.

As I said in other posts, my responsibilities did not encompass the asharams or the instructors but being as close to the center of Maharaji's world as I was, I often learned or heard of many situations that fell outside of my specific areas of responsibility. However, to repeat, I never heard anything of the Jagdeo situation when I was involved with Maharaji.

Michael

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 01:29:24 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Remember Michael Bergman,DLM treasurer? his email
Message:
Michael,

An old premie friend of mine reports that Michael Bergman (former DLM treasurer) moved up to rural Oregon, got out of the m. involvement, but has occasionally gone to some local events (in Eugene or Portland?) in recent years. From his email address, it seems that he works for the government - perhaps accounting related.

He may have some interesting information to share, too, if someone who knew him well would like to contact him.

Anyway, here's Michael's email address:

Michael.I.Bergman@ohdmail.hr.state.or.us

Peace,

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 16:57:51 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: My Response
Message:
Michael,

It is of course possible that Maharaji didn't know about Jagdeo, but somehow I find that extremely unlikely.

Based on what your experience was around Maharaji, if it is true that Susan told both Randy Prouty and Judy Osborne in the 70s about what Jagdeo had done to her, and also true that Abi's father told Gurucharanand about what Jagdeo had done to her, about the same time period, do you think there is any change Randy and/or Judy DIDN'T tell Maharaji about this?

Was there any kind of fear among the people around Maharaji that he didn't want to hear bad news, scandals, etc., and that those premies might have tried to 'fix' the Jagdeo situation without telling Maharaji? Somehow I find that impossible to believe, but maybe that was the case.

Did Jagdeo 'have anything' on either Maharaji or the people around him, such that people like Judy and Randy might be afraid to cross him, for example, when he found out they ratted on him to Maharaji? [It always seemed to me, and others have commented as well, that Jagdeo always seemed to be kind of the senior Mahatma and might have been the most political when it came to the Mahataji-kingdom. Do you think this might have had anything to do with it?]

Clearly, though, if the DLM coordinators were aware of the Jagdeo situation in the 80s, Maharaji must have known, and if he dealt with the situation by just getting Jagdeo out of the country and to the Far East, that is very damning, and indicates damage control rather than any concern for the damage Jagdeo did or might do.

Finally, even if Maharaji didn't know, he clearly has a moral obligation to come forward now and try to repair the damage, since he clearly is away of it, at least by last year. And yet we hear nothing but silence from him, and spin and obfuscation from Elan Vital. It's really disgusting, but not out of character for Maharaji, clearly someone who has demonstrated he doesn't even understand what taking responsbility even means.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:06:10 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thank yo Micheal
Message:
That puts that lawsuit to rest. Now I ca go and kick some crap of that fellow.
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 10:23:08 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Phyllis confirms Michaels' reply Salam (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 21:59:33 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: What happens with...OT
Message:
what happens with your email account? My mail is 'bouncing'.

Chau

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:03:09 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: sb
Subject: What happens with...OT
Message:
I had few problems with it lately. Try it again now, if the problem persist contact your system administrator. Nahhh just kidding, let me know here

Love you

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:26:23 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: More proof of internal decay of rawat cult
Message:
As was reported below, Terry Yingling has resigned from Elan Vital. Those of us still around in the 90's know her to have been high up in the cult. She had something to do with dealing with the press. Minister of Information Control/Office of Maharaji(is what her tiltle should have been. I doubt she was X-rated so therefore she was probably just another believer in the Truest Father.

This rawat cult is falling apart from within. The best thing this site can do is continue to provide information as it becomes available.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 21:50:36 (GMT)
From: True Ex-premie
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Good for her!! ...if she did split
Message:
Where did you get this information, if you 'can' say it, of course. Fuck Rawat!!

She was always as nice as the cult mind set allowed her to be, I remember. Overall, good person. She had trouble accepting the 'rules' of the upper honchos I heard. Do you know if she split? That would be great news.

RAWAT, YOUR DAYS AS A SUPER-MASTER ARE COUNTED, YOU DILLUSIVE rat!

TEP

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 00:21:11 (GMT)
From: Malibu Mole
Email: None
To: all
Subject: If you want to try and contact her...
Message:
Rumours are flying down here.

Maybe someone can talk her into coming aboard and let us know some things. Unless of course her contract does not allow her. She knows where we are, she has people reading this stuff every day and reporting back.

Terry, or others, if you're out there, and I know you are, come on in, the water is fine. Nobody is going to bite you here.
Enlighten us, lighten your burden.

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 03:02:21 (GMT)
From: True Ex-premie
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: If you want to try and contact her...
Message:
Yeah, it would be very enlightening to hear what Terry has to say about the organization, but for her to begin a dialogue with us seems to me to be an impossible chance. Not Terry. Well, look what other moles have shared here; maybe it is possible.

You are right. It is very possible that Terry has a silence contract, I bet :0 Rawat is not that silly stupid to let 'those' honchos go freely, without warnings. Too dangerous. After all, the rotten vegetables ARE a possibility. LOL

Rawat=0

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 00:38:37 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: If you want to try and contact her...
Message:
I didn't know Terry well, and certainly haven't spoken with her in the past 15 years, but I recall the kind of person she was, and she was a person who I would think would have some trouble carrying the 'company line.' I recall her as being kind of down to earth and a bit irreverent. That's why it surprised me that she would be doing work for Elan Vital, even if she was still a premie, because I think she is the kind of person who would have a hard time taking the corporate and cult bullshit that Elan Vital must be full of, if it is anything like what the Maharaji cult-organization has always been like.

But doesn't Elan Vital go through employees fairly quickly. Sharon Stokke, for example, was som honcho in Elan Vital, but I heard she got fired. So, Terry's leaving might not have anything to do with her attitude towards the cult, Maharaji, or anything else.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 16:23:28 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Terry also worked...
Message:
...with all the 'contact persons' in all the North American communities. They received many of their instructions directly from her. One of her housemates in the last few years has nearly daily contact with Mr. Rawat in person.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:07:50 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: I used to get instructions from her
Message:
Terry ran his office. She was the main link, holding the fort down at EVI. m. would come in occasionally when he was in town. Terry did community contacts, instructor arrangments, all kinds of stuff.

Peace

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:46:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: We ain't seen nothing yet.
Message:
Hi JTF,

I've been in contact with a few old time premies recently- and several of them are on the way out or have already left- but don't want to publicise the fact. Some of them are well known and have been around since the early days.

You're dead right- the rot has set in and it's not going to stop. I think the Jagdeo business is going to destroy the whole cult.

At the moment, the victims who are ready to go to court are prevented for various technical reasons- but I don't think it will be long before there is a massive law-suit against the cult- in the same way that the Hare Krishnas, and Sai Baba have been sued for allowing sexual abuse to be carried out on children in their care.

There are lawyers who specialise in this type of case.

The walls are tumbling down- make no mistake about it.

Anth- blowing his trumpet as hard as he can.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 23:41:15 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hey AJW!
Message:
You seem to have changed from the DRIP DRIP days. Do you still see MJ as a nonculpable victim? Is your son glad you have given up the Guru?
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 10:34:41 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Cha, cha cha cha cha cha...
Message:
...changes.

Yes Gail, you could say that. In fact, at some point I'm going to write a postscript to my Journey.

The main thing that I see differently is Rawat's role and responsibility in the whole caravan of crap. Also, as more information about the Jagdeo business has come to light (and there's more on the way), I've become quite disgusted by the way he was allowed to continue- and the responsibility has to lie somewhere.

I also had a couple of conversations with people here- I think one of the Gerrry's (Jerry) (GeRrY) posted something that really made me think- a couple of other people too.

It's certainly not the case that I posted my journey, left the cult, became a different person overnight and carried on with my life. The journey out continues.

The great thing about it all is that the process seems to be completely natural- like your body has a way of healing itself- so,it seems, does the mind.

Take care

Anth the Changing Contradictory Chubbty Chap (Sometimes I catch a reflection of myself from the side, in a hotel room and think- who's that old fat bloke?)

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 21:48:27 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Glad to hear more info coming
Message:
Are you still in touch with Glen or has he disconnected from you?

Was that Eurovision song contest chap the guy that Glen's ex ran off and left her children for?

Curious

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 15:17:15 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Ford Greene - anti-cult lawyer
Message:
In America, a very good lawyer who is dedicated to anti-cult cases is Ford Greene. There are a few websites about him. He is an ex-Moonie. He has fought court cases against Scientology and Swami Kriyananda.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:19:09 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Ford Greene - my friend
Message:
He was a couple of years behind me at my law school. An old and cherished friend.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 09:42:09 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Ford Greene - my friend
Message:
well what on earth are you waiting for?? lets talk to him! you have the 'in'--use it!!!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:54:08 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Class Action Suit
Message:
Maybe we should start a large, international class action suit against Mr. Prem Pal Singh Rawat. We could sue for the monies we donated to him personally (which is illegal) because of his fraudulent claims of being the messiah/satguru.

There may be little chance of winning such a case, but at the very least it would send a message to Mr. Rawat that he couldn't ignore, a message to all premies that they would have a hard time denying, and provide a measure of publicity.

There could conceivably be literally thousands of plaintiffs from every continent. And it could be easily proven that Mr. Rawat did in fact claim to be the unique, living Incarnation of God, and that he was given donated money for his own use.

Marianne, can you ask Ford if there is any chance of his involvement in such a lawsuit? And what advice he might have?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 21:52:35 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Class Action Suit
Message:
Now you are talking.

I don't come often anymore. Please, can you post if anything like that develops?

Thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 21:32:40 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Way
Subject: Class Action Suit
Message:
Way: This is best discussed off forum. I do not want Rotwat's lawyers to know anything I am thinking in this regard.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 09:54:15 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hello Marianne and everyone
Message:
Okay then, no open talk about lawsuits on the forum. Rats. But you have my email address if something is organized. I'd like to be included and speaking for my husband so would he. I'd throw money in the pot to secure a lawyer.
Merry Christmas
Tonette
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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 01:41:18 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Can I have a quickie
Message:
Just in case the law suites fail, who pays?

My take. You're waisting your time. No one is going to procsecute anyone for claiming to be god. Not gonna happen, ask JIM, he will tell you.

If anything, we should push the Jagdeo issue right up his ass until he does something about it. Pitty no one did anything when it was hot of the oven.

You know what the real problem is. Well I tell what it is. We do not know what our rights are. That is what the real problem is. And, their is no legislation yet for 'victims of spiritual abuse', which is what we are. It is ok with goverment to give people the freedom to worship. It is also ok for anyone to say I am a spiritual leader, give me tax excemptions. But it is not ok for those people that entered into a cult and came out to say that they were ripped of. As long as we think that religion works and spirituality exist, then we should really shut up because we are doing nothing to but to advocate religion. What I think is that a consumer group has to be set up, where all religious leader and churches have to register. A watch should be set that these organisation are meeting a minimum standard and complains can be lodged. As simple as buying a car from a dealer. I am not saying that religion should be shut, but if your going to sell crap merchandise, then you should be held responsible for it.

In the meanwhile dream on. I might find where nirvan is by the time that happens.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 19:12:14 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I agree, no time now, c2it later?
Message:
yeah ! I'm up for it. Trouble is we've got bloody christmas, dya no wot i'm talking about? its like religion. Oh what the hell, i've just gotta do it. I'm sure that's wot a lot of da folks is doin' right now and i'm sorry if i got hold of the wrong end of tha stik. I think u is one funny person. i'm sorry, i just had to say that!
I loves you
Kelly
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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 16:14:33 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Go away
Message:
Speak to Sucha that way and see what happens.
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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 23:18:34 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Sorry Salam
Message:
I was in an altered state due to christmas spirit! Doesn,t make any sense to me.
love kelly
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:47:07 (GMT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Final Drip
Message:
Just got and email from a friend high up in the ranks of the cult convincing me that M indeeds has affairs with premie females including Monica Lewis. I thought these allegations may have been made up or hearsay but apparently not. Sicko if you ask me.

By the way I'm beginning to feel better and 'deprogrammed' after 2 years on the Forum and 31 years in the cult.

Love Ya,

Have a great Christmas,

Liz

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 10:39:49 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Final Splash
Message:
Hi Liz,

Hope all is well with you and yours. Have a cool yule.

I think the drips are turning into splashes.

Anth who forgot his umbrella.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 21:19:55 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Final Drip--has your friend also left the cult?
Message:
Just got an email from a friend high up in the ranks of the cult convincing me that M indeed has affairs with premie females including Monica Lewis.

Has she left? How could she stay with all this junk staring her in the face?

I'm glad to hear you are doing well.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:39:30 (GMT)
From: FeRfEl
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Final Flight of Captain Rawat?
Message:
Final Flight of Captain Rawat?
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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 21:52:43 (GMT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: FeRfEl
Subject: Final Flight of Captain Rawat?
Message:
Whose that guy on the right?

Liz aka curious George

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 18:49:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: FeRfEl
Subject: WICKED!!! Haahahaha! 'Say cheese' (toasted) (nt)
Message:
hah!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:56:14 (GMT)
From: Abraham Logon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'It's too bad....
Message:
Gore c seding
doesn't mean a thing constitutionally
Is there a 'other guy' give up statute ?
gore is not 'the people'
'the people' R thee people.
now...
if the people....recount and find gore the victor.
then where does that leave us.
'the people'
o.
I get it.
You mean to say......the people aka the hearts that r true.
so....
perhaps...i might just vote for BILL BRADLEY next time.
he's a people person...as far as darkness n lite goes.
who knows ? perhaps bush will produce a gentler and kinda
chinadeara...does dis site produce a gentler and kinder
existence.?
rhetorical......
jk
lol
oui ?
non ?
let's count......
trash is to be eliminated organically.
re-member ?
is this sight...organic or detrimental ?
rhetoric.
jk
lol
roflmao
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 15:47:38 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Abraham Logon
Subject: 'It's too bad the US had to beat around the Bushes
Message:
for another president. His father and Brian Mulrooney sold Canada out. We live like a third world country now. The Canadian dollar is worth $.50 US since the new free trade deal.

Of course, Brian Mulrooney lives on Wall Street now.

They should tear down the borders and make us the 51st state officially.

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 03:12:35 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Peewee Herman:'A bird in the Bush is better than 2
Message:
in the hand!' Bend over, America, and take it!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:04:37 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: 'It's too bad the US had to beat around the Bushes
Message:
They should tear down the borders and make us the 51st state officially.

Oh, no Gail, I hope that doesn't happen. I was kind of hoping I could take refuge in Canada, at least for the next four years or so, the big advantage being that it is a separate country without Bush the Junior as its leader. I would have to get some warm clothes, though.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 18:11:01 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: London Times 12/15/00 on the decline of the USA
Message:
The fact that the State of Florida was incapable of properly counting votes in a presidential election has not gone unnoticed by other countries. They have also noted that the election was ultimately decided by the delaying tactics of partisan lawyers and judges. Certain other failures are identified in this article from the London Times.
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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 16:48:10 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: American Century and complex tecnology
Message:
Way:

The moment the Supreme Court’s Republican majority prohibited the counting of votes that might have gone against their favoured candidate was the moment when America finally abdicated from its post-Second World War pretensions to be the political role-model for a universally democratic world.

Very astute article, but probably more indicative of a trend than a sea-change. Writers have been predicting the end of the 'American Century' since that Atlantic article a decade ago. I have to admit I was shocked at the incompetence of most Americans when it comes to complexity of technology and social dynamics. But mostly technology. Punch card ballots are not really that hard to understand, compared to 'technology fusion,' for instance. And for a population to demand, motivate, and supply excellence they have to at least understand how it comes about. This election was like an IQ test, where the major players (political actors, the legal establishment and the media) don't even understand the fundamental terms of the game. I don't think it ever occurred to anyone on either side that the several counties of Florida might adopt voluntary protocols for looking at ballots. And that certainly wasn't the only glaring lapse.

I'm still waiting to see some leadership. Maybe I should stop waiting.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:20:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Gee, why do we never see anything like that ?
Message:
Is the press in the USA just so goddammed bland that it doesn't notice some of the obvious points that are made in that article?

And the article is very correct. Americans and the American press is so ethnocentric, that we haven't a clue how we appear to the rest of the world. But that's always been true; it's just more embarrassing now, when we have so much to be ashamed of.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 20:51:52 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Gee, why do we never see anything like that ?
Message:
The American media also ignores the high unemployment in Europe and the high taxes and and costs for their social programs. Many Germans work 2 jobs to make ends meet. Others work for 'black' (cash) money. Many major German machine tool companies are producing products in Southeast Asia. Europe leads in many technolgoies that were 'reinvented' after WWII. They were forced to adopt new methods as they lost the majority of their manufacturing plants. Machine tools made in Germany these days use steel from Russia and the eastern bloc becuase it is cheaper. The German social system is seriously underfunded for the future. We have two german tradesmen working for us on 18 month visas an I spent a lot of time in Germany a few years ago touring plants. They had manufacturing plants putting out 28 trucks of goods a day with less than 20 employee's. Very hi tech. Doesn't employ a lot of people though. We have many problems in this country and in my mind one of the biggest is no trade restrictions
with countries that make it difficult for us to sell products into. In the 60's this country grew with the large influx of a well paid working class (not everyone in this country will go to college). Many of those jobs are now off shore. I recently bid a project against a Chinese company - it was a waste of my time, even with free labor I wasn't close and I have soem of the most advnced machines in the world. Their raw materials had to be significantly less. China, eastern Europe and southeast Asia will be the next dominat ecomomies. It will be 50 years before they develop higher standards of living and then maybe Africa will be next. America's base as a amnufactuer of goods has been declining for 40 years.
How will we solve the problem of a decent wage for the modestly educated or those who don't wnat to go to college. What will we do when we have no jobs for the majority of the working class? These problems exist in Europe now.
If they remodel their ecomomies how will they fund their social programs? that aritcle fails to address many real issues as well as most US media fail to address it. News isn't news anymore, its an opinion being sold to the masses. well thats my 3 cents for this month
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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 16:57:57 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: anything like that
Message:
Ben:

Mostly true. Europe has been moving in our direction for some time, but this election may signal an era when we begin to move in theirs for awhile. There are some seemingly-irresolvable dilemmas.

We have two german tradesmen working for us on 18 month visas an I spent a lot of time in Germany a few years ago touring plants. They had manufacturing plants putting out 28 trucks of goods a day with less than 20 employee's. Very hi tech. Doesn't employ a lot of people though.

Several decades ago the president of GM took Walter Reuther on a tour of his new model manufacturing plant, manned mostly by robots. At the end of the tour he looked over at Reuther and commented: 'They can work 24 hours a day, don't ask for any benefits, and never go on strike.' Reuther replied: 'Sure, but how many cars do they buy?'

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 21:49:11 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: anything like that
Message:
Well in our industry we talk about the factory of the future having a technician in a lab coat and a dog, the tech is there to feed the dog and the dog is there to keep the tech away from the machines. The German banking system (Goverment controlled) is much different, if a machine will employ the makers of the machine and help the business the loan is made on the premise they will get the money back in taxes and 'social' benefits. But for an individual to buy a house I think it is either 30 or 40% down. Individual credit cards are paid in full every month. Everytime we have a technician here from Germany they are on the phone with thier bank near the end of their stay getting credits for all the 'potential dollars spent' at various car rental agencies. There is a big social difference over there - for the most part everyone follows all the basic rules and believes in the system. When the law says you can't pass on the right on the Autobahn they will drive for miles on end not going around someone on the
right. they are for the most part better educated and more obediant. Not that that is neccarily a good thing, it just an observation. They warranty there goods for 5 years and are responsible for 30 years (construction trades). You can't open your own business in the trades unless you have a masterbrief. I saw very few paper knapkins, styrafoam cups, or paper bags. I don't remember seeing one drive thru. And the VAT is 16%, income tax with the 9% provision for Eastern germany is close to 60%. And they don't work more than 35-37 hours per week (paid for 40). Its all great as long as the price of the product will support it but those services add values to a social system, not the product and as soon as you sell outside your borders your products must sell on price relative to similar products made elsewhere in the world. When every law in the US gets more restrictive for raw materials and labor and liability then every job that can move offshore will. If you want to save the trees in the US are you willing
to pay a higher price for goods made in the US or will you accept a modular home made in CHINA in a few years? There are no easy answers and I for one would like to see someone address population control. I don't think there should be a tax break for more than 2 children and I don't think people on welfare should be awarded more benefits for more children. And schools should teach 'basic living', balancing a checkbook, writing a complaint letter, establishing a budget. I have 2 or 3 employees that take 1 or 2 days off a month to drive around and pay their bills. they have no checking accounts. Some of these guys make over $40,000 per year and there right pocket is their bank account.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 23:26:29 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Are you kidding, Joe. It's colder than a witch's
Message:
you-know what. brrrrrrr

Back to the Bush boys--they sure do look alike!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 15:14:17 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Abraham Logon
Subject: You've forgotten your meds again, Abe. (nt)
Message:
thtodid
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 07:02:05 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: David Mancroft description please
Message:
David Mancroft (probably spelling this wrong) did one of those phone link fundraisers this week for the coffers of Prem Rawat.

I'm trying to fit a face to the name. Can anyone describe to me what he looks like? I have a hunch and want to know if I'm correct.

thanks,

C.G.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:09:24 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Curious George
Subject: David Mancroft description please
Message:
I would guess the correct spelling is Mankoff.

I know the guy, spoke to him briefly a couple of times. Used to say when he spoke that he made his first million when he was 20 and that making a million dollars is easier than 'realizing knowledge'. Always assumed he was a major source of funding for the guru from hell.

Asked him privately for advice on making money. Said he deals in new stock issues which are very risky. He seemed respectful, though.

What happened to Yoram Weiss? He used to do this unenviable job. Anybody know the guy? I've had some pleasant banter with him too.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:31:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Yoram Weiss
Message:
Yoram is actually an Israeli national, who probably has American citizenship now. I recall in the late 70s he was an initiator, back when initiators were these ashram premies who travelled around to the various communities and spoke at nightly satsang, and talked to aspirants, the very few there were, and were actually empowered to reveal the four meditation techniques to people they determined were 'ready.' I think all the initiators got fired in 1983 or so, replace with 'instructors' who were later also fired, or at least most of them. Since there were lots of initiators and hardly any aspirants, these people had very little to do, but they were revered somewhat, because the Lord himself had selected them, and they went through a mini-mind-fuck program, called the IDP (initiator training program) in Malibu, in which Maharaji himself, personally, indoctrinated them that they were to be 100% devoted to him, personally.

I recall Yoram touring through communities I lived in and staying the ashram where I lived. He had a cute accent, was kind of short, smaller-type guy, and kind of endearing. Humble-type if I recall, although I didn't know him personally.

From what I understand, Yoram moved on from being an initiator to being a major fundraiser for the former Lord of the Universe. I am told he does lots of conference calls with premies suggesting things like that they should donate stock to Maharaji personally as a 'gift.' He also apparently has toured trying to raise money the the latest plane Maharaji wants, or maybe the latest yacht or 'residence' or something. My understanding is that he raises money to support Maharaji's lavish lifestyle, rather than for programs and things like that. Accordingly, I think he kind of raises money on the sly, in closed meetings and over 'secure' telephone lines, because it would be technically illegal for 'Elan Vital' to be raising money for Maharaji personally. Big grey area, though.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:57:15 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yoram Weiss
Message:
Yep Joe, that about sums it up. someone, a PAM, once told me that M's instruction (agya) to Yorum was simply 'Cover me' and by the way, to one of his PR team, simply 'No Press'.
Well he is a simple guy!!!
I always found Yorum a really sweet sincere guy, who occasionally appeared a little stressed....which is hardly surprising given the nature of his 'service'
One of the things that has truly shocked me in recent years is to discover that you can buy yourself a front seat,and Yorum is the chief salesman.
Kelly
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:50:38 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Yoram Weiss
Message:
I am not a friend of Yoram Weiss, however I have had a couple of interactions with the guy, I find the description of him as sweet and humble to be disgusting. I'm actually shaking a bit writing this, the attitude he has to the 'common or garden premie' is disgusting, elitist and uncaring, gee I wonder where he got that from.

We were preparing for a large event at Amaroo. There were construction workers starting work at 7am on toast and coffee if they were lucky, then initially getting a large meal in the middle of the day, this was cut back to a sandwich, just part of the extremely harsh conditions they were labouring in. I, with others were doing something to rectify this obviously cruel and potentially dangerous situation. Yoram thought this was tantamount to communism! His comment to me was 'you won't get far in Maharaji's world with socialist ideas like that.'

God, it still makes my blood boil when I think about that fucking place. You wanna know how Yoram justifies selling front row seats, and all the other VIP schmooze that goes on? He is looking after his rich marks, and he says to you, well you look after your people....of course not with his help or any money!

He has been involved in getting money for Maharaji from the early days, poor bastard, and is, in his defence, a true believer.

He was in the army I believe, and I remember him saying that Maharaji had made him more 'his' than the army ever had.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 22:01:34 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Yoram Weiss (I'm shaking too!)
Message:
Dear Lesley,

I talked to a National Coordinator very recently too about selling/saving seats for rich people and his reply was we have to give them what they are used to(insinuating that we have to give the plebs what they are used to) As a socialist after all these years I am SICKENED.

If you have given Marianne your email I would love it.

C.G.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 17:19:45 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Yoram Weiss
Message:
I met Yoram in Rome, years ago.

He came across as a 'career premie'. He'd seen a way to make it in Maharaji's world- and indeed, appeared to be, 'sacrificing everything' and doing well by cult standards.

It was uncomfortable for me to be with him. I've seen premies like this before, and been one myself once. They remind me of a door to door salesman who won't give up.

The big problem with being devoted like this, is that you take your feelings of love and warmth away from those around you. If you're a premie with a family, you can love your partner and children when you get home from the video, and sort of carry on with a fairly normal life. But if you're in Yoram's situation, all that gets burned away. You piss all your love into the wind and turn into Mr Cult Deadhead, a zombie amongst zombies.

It's an unhealthy state of mind to be in and I hope poor old Yoram finds his way back to awkward old Mother Earth before he empties his bladder.

Anth of the Evil Dead.

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 06:55:55 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Oh Anth, that is so true
Message:
Perhaps he can comfortably evacuate the contents of his stomach as he passes his ex master's head!
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 17:23:16 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Is Yoram married?
Message:
Does he live in Malibu? I take it he is a fulltime, salaried employee of some cult entity, but what? Elan Vital? One of those other corporations that owns the plane and a lot of Maharji's expensive toys?
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 17:40:46 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Is Yoram married?
Message:
I don't think so Joe, but I don't really know. I haven't seen him for years.

I know he had a passionate relationship with a friend of mine quite a few years back.

Anth the gossssssssssssiiiiiiiiiiippppppppp.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 18:57:08 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Married to the Mob
Message:
Wasn't that a good movie? Nothing to do with this post though.

I saw Yoram 6 months ago, giving his little Powerpoint presentation on the continuing need for megabucks. Lots of pie charts - like the ones on EV FAQ only with real numbers in (!). BIG numbers. Crappy graphics though. Only cool thing was an embedded video clip of some aircraft which EV wanted an 'unrelated' corporation to purchase so they could tax-deductibly lease it from them for spreading the Lord's message. Or that's how I read it, it was sort of vague, the way it was put across. One could almost have mistakenly thought they were asking the audience of mega-wealthy premies for money towards it!! But I'm sure that wasn't the case. Maybe I dreamt the whole thing, it was a pretty boring day and I did sleep through a lot of it.

On another occasion, I remember daring to critisize the Lord's use of lousy colour combinations in one of his propogation powerpoint things. Boy did I get some flak for that! But really, yellow text on green, red on purple....it was ugly man. Everyone else was crooning about how beautiful and incredible it was that maharaji knew how to put together a powerpoint show, while I was like 'needs work - colours look like shit'. Think he heard me too, I got THAT look, THAT displeasure.

Anyway, Yoram. He looked slick as ever with his little briefcase and G3, expensive silk suit....no chicks around him that I could see. Maybe there's hope for you Joe ;-)

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:52:13 (GMT)
From: A regular on this site
Email: None
To: Anth
Subject: Married to the Mob
Message:
Yoram was completely devoted to the Lard from the very beginning. Even back then he resisted getting involved in relationships because it interfered with service and meditation. He was at one time a nice person.

He was very warm and affectionate if you get my point.

Hi Yoram. Don't they send you these posts to see if you can figure out who wrote them? Or are you one of our premie lurkers?

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:17:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: What's a G3...?
Message:
And very funny. :)

Was there something in particular that Yoram was asking money for?

Does anyone at these things ever mention how all the magabucks that have already been raised seem to fail to produce any new 'students' in the Western World, regardless of the color of the brochures? Has anyone ever mentioned this to Yoram?

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 02:54:52 (GMT)
From: Baza
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What's a G3...?
Message:
What's a G3...?

An Apple/Mac Powerbook - a laptop in other words, predecessor of the G4 and preferred machine for the devotee-about-town.

Was there something in particular that Yoram was asking money for?

I'll probably keep that info between Marianne and myself for now:)

Does anyone at these things ever mention how all the magabucks that have already been raised seem to fail to produce any new 'students' in the Western World, regardless of the color of the brochures? Has anyone ever mentioned this to Yoram?

You've not been to 'one of those things' in a while have you Joe?
First up, you only get invited if you donate in excess of $100,000 per year (there's talk of dropping it to $50,000, I guess to get the numbers up a bit) and really the last thing those folks are interested in is having more people on board, its just about unquestioning devotion, front row seats, private darshan and a guaranteed place in heaven.

The thought that one of them would stick a hand up and make a comment like that is quite hilarious, having sat through them. They might find their front row reservation sticker is missing next event!

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 00:09:08 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: You just fragged the bastard , well done (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:07:57 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Hi Kelly, can you explain?
Message:
Hi Kelly.

I've been enjoying reading your posts. Thanks for the contributions to the forum. One thing you said intrigued me:

One of the things that has truly shocked me in recent years is to discover that you can buy yourself a front seat,and Yorum is the chief salesman.

I have read from other people implying this, but I never heard that front-row seats at programs were actually for sale. I alway thought that if you donated a lot of money to Maharaji, you would just kind of be rewarded with front-row seating, you know, kind of like what Presidents do with letting people sleep in the Lincoln bedroom in the White House.

Can you give any details? How is Yoram the 'chief salesman?' Has he tried to sell to you, or to anyone you know? Thanks.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 17:02:04 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hi Kelly, can you explain?
Message:
Hi Joe, thanks for those kind words. To answer your question....yeah that is pretty much how it is as far as i know. but i was thinking in particular of the last big amaroo event,97? where, if you donated a certain amount, then you were given VIP treatment,transported in stretch limos and of course seats at the front.I think it was a pretty huge amount, like 10,000 dollars or so. It just seemed sick to me. I descibed Yorum as chief salesman because he was in charge of the whole fundraising thing. I didn't know him well,just to chat to.
Otherwise I have noticed that the 'major donors' as they're called, always get to sit at the front.
love kelly
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:07:56 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: you mean Dave Mankhoff
Message:
yeah i know exactly who you mean--longtime PMA--short business styled straight black hair, long thin sharp nose, mustache, glasses, very slender, always in suits, quick moving guy, got that New York City sharp vibe, east coast jewish accent. busy busy busy, always on the run. Dave Mankhoffi see him here in LA, at events, all the time. only diference lately is the cell phone. everybody breaks them out when the doors open, and ppl can step outside for a smoke and to call their brokers to check on their stocks.....smirk/snortwhy?-- doesn't everybody?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:36:34 (GMT)
From: Bert
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: you mean Dave Mankhoff
Message:
So perhaps you forget Janet- He is 8Ft tall!!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:00:04 (GMT)
From: C.G.
Email: None
To: Bert
Subject: you mean Dave Mankhoff
Message:
That's who I thought it was. Thanks for the missing link. does he often wear glasses or sunglasses? Quite a good looking chap in a jewish kind of way, I thought. Seems Yorum is taking a break because it was definately Dave Mankhoff who did the conference phone link making those dollars, dollars, dollars for the Rat Family. It was justified by asking for donations to cover the debt by this year end.

C.G.

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 03:10:08 (GMT)
From: Ex-True Premie
Email: None
To: C.G.
Subject: But when he travel around...
Message:
local premies have to pay for his plane ticket, rental cars, meals, etc. When I was around the Elan Eivel vital I saw this to be the norm. What is naughsty is that premies had to pay even when he knew (Mancoff that premies in some particular community were broke. I dislike the guy. Sneaky?

All for the LORD.

I must vomit now.

ETP

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:09:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: C.G.
Subject: Did you actually hear the conference call?
Message:
If so, what did Mankoff say? Who was invited to listen to the conference call? What was he raising money for? Anything in particular, or just the need to keep Maharaji in gold toilets and plumbing fixtures?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:16:38 (GMT)
From: C.G.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hi Joe
Message:
No I was invited along with the plebs in my area. We were all told that we needed to fill the hole and make Elan Vital debtless by the year end. I think it was Elan vital (or did he say changing the gold fixtures in the bathroom or a new plane...short term memory problems!) ...can't quite remember.

I think I could have plugged into the call from home but I didn't want to spend the money. Kinda regretted I didn't.

C.G.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:17:58 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: C.G.
Subject: You mean you have to PAY for a fundraising call?
Message:
chutpza!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:01:31 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yeah, then Yoram bores you into giving m. shekels
Message:
I was on that list for years. Someone from EV or Visions would call me, give the conference call number and time of the call.

You call, sit on hold for about 20 minutes, then Yoram comes on
and drones on about how everything is so so beeeauuutiful and how Maharaji loves us so much and how we can help his work.

Then you're supposed to cut a very big check.

The projects are described pretty nebulously, if at all. The money is the important thing. I fell for this several times. Yoram can literally talk for about an hour and say absolutely nothing - except everything is so beautiful, and help by sending as much as you possibly can right away.

When I was contacted about the last conference call, I had just started checking out the internet stuff, and was debating everything myself. [The financial stuff posted and pedophile thing really pissed me off.]

After about 5 minutes of Yoram, I hung up. 'They just want my money - that's the whole trip now,' I thought. The other calls each racked up about $20 in charges, too.

The next Monday morning, I got a call asking if I had done the conference call and how much I would be pledging each month. I made some excuse, and the person on the other end was miffed when I said that I had had other things to do and had hung up on Yoram.

Now, David Mankhoff - he's a regular salesman type. Also likes to argue over the phone with his girlfriend long-distance (at others' expense). He gets sent out to the communities to fundraise for the projects. I've eaten dinner with him a few times in the past.

Peace,


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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:36:23 (GMT)
From: C.G.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You mean you have to PAY for a fundraising call?
Message:
A Conference call costs ya!

C.G.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 15:58:56 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Bert
Subject: It's David Mankoff and his...
Message:
address in Denver is available by a Netscape People Finder search.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:24:28 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: one lot of Implication's of Jugdeo's stuff
Message:
I've been reading about this for some time. It is clear that there is a lot of pain and also a lot of values clashes going on around this issue.

I see at least two problems that create dilemmas that raise the anxiety stakes

1)
I reckon that the first worry is something like -
'If this happenned and was dealt with in this way - what else happened and we don't know about?' Tip of the iceberg stuff. Given what MDettmers corroborated - MJ had and clearly has a secret life - so any protestations are useless from MJ's or EV's side of life.

2)
Add together what MDettmers has clarified and we see that whatever is said by EV et al and premies is crap. Bugger asking EV about Jagdeo - there is plausible deniability - though barely plausible - in fact not plausible - it is a furphy - a red herring - a distraction - it ties us and others up in endless discussions of he said, she said, we said, they meant, I meant etc. It has been clearly set out by posters here as well as researched etc. And all the apologists for the 'ends justify the means' stuff, Puhllleeaasse! I began to wonder if Turner was MJ - only an intuitive response - no data to back it up?

Cheers

Peter Howie

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:36:12 (GMT)
From: Mr. Bill
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Another cringe: How a biker family did justice
Message:
True story: A girl was raped and beaten by a man whowas later aquitted on some technicality. The girl was a daughter of a biker family. They walked away angry at the verdict.
A few weeks later the acquitted man was found miles away hanging dead on a fencepost. He was sliced from his lower bellie to below his throat packed with rock salt and sewn back together left to die in the heat of the sun. They never found the biker or his family.
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 00:40:23 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Mr. Bill
Subject: Are they still on the loose?
Message:
Or did the cavalry give up after they'd caught Geronimo.

His boyos went in for similar pleasantries.

Do you think this sort of retribution is appropriate for Jagdeo ,should he be proven guilty?

Are you a blood relative of one of the alleged victims ?

If not , what's it to you , revenge wise?

That was a disgusting story & one in which you do not make your own attitude plain.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:47:37 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M's Phone # anyone?
Message:
Anyone got the Big M's Phone#. Anyway known to man how you can slip through the Divine guard and actually talk to him?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:11:15 (GMT)
From: C.G.
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: M's Phone # anyone?
Message:
Here it is:

1 310 457 5561

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:51:45 (GMT)
From: Mirror
Email: .
To: Mr. Free
Subject: M's Phone # anyone?
Message:
.

What medications do take?

ha ha ha....., now go to bed, it's past your bed time.

Dog looks down at the dog looking up at him with the bone in his mouth and try’s to make a grab for it and loses the bone in his mouth.

And the dog did this without feeling any Holy breath coming from the other dog.

What? ------- Huh? ------- Duh? And the babble can go on and on,

Read the book, no' never mind you will do what is right for you.

At least you do pray that you do, right? Never mind, it was a joke.

Guru Maharaj Ji quote:
Remember it is not Who is Guru Maharaj Ji, it is What is Guru Maharaj Ji and that is not a question It is a Quest.

bla bla bla .........................................

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 05:10:59 (GMT)
From: Mr. Bill
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: M's Phone # anyone?
Message:
3 messages from Mirror and the Xanax or prozac or whatever hasn't worn off. Mirror drop the facade the drugs and the stupidity. Take off the blinders. If you don't know M's phone # just you know leave it be.
If you have something constructive to say speak. So far it's all dribble and babblespeak to me
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 05:50:44 (GMT)
From: Mirror
Email: .
To: Mr. Bill
Subject: M's Phone # anyone? *
Message:
Mr. Bill responded:
3 messages from Mirror and the Xanax or prozac or whatever hasn't worn off. Mirror drop the facade the drugs and the stupidity. Take off the blinders. If you don't know M's phone # just you know leave it be.
If you have something constructive to say speak. So far it's all dribble and babblespeak to me
---------------------------------------------------------

It was not addressed to you unless you are *Mr. Free?

So if your not then it is you that has the problem, You whish to be a Cop or thought police Nazi, just what is your problem bubba?

No forget it I do not give a rats ass about your interpretation of something not directed to you.

You should continue your book burning and stay out of conversations not directed to yourself.

What a Jerk you are. And your need to respond to this will speak volumes, lets see if you can not respond........

I know I will easily not respond to you if you do.

Lets see if the Nazi thought control Cop can be still???

When will you the Pig fly/talk? 1234567.....?????

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:30:43 (GMT)
From: Nazi thought control cop
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: M's Phone # anyone? *
Message:
Take another prozac dear, it may help
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:53:12 (GMT)
From: Mirror
Email: .
To: Nazi thought control cop
Subject: M's Phone # anyone? *
Message:
{lol} -

- That drab and over used dribble is the best you come up with?..... ha ha ha..... What a pathetic creature you are...... and as I stated before you being such a low life as you are you could not stop your self from responding.

Well, you strange little creature that needs a new incarnation, consider this my last response to you, at least in your present incarnation as a Nazi thought control cop want to be....

Maybe your just a deranged creature in need of a new incarnation as I indicated above..

{lol}

.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:50:59 (GMT)
From: C.G.
Email: None
To: those it may concern
Subject: I do have M's phone Number (nt)
Message:
really!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 07:36:19 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: C.G.
Subject: I do have M's phone Number (nt)
Message:
Well can you just print it out
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 05:15:39 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Mr. Bill
Subject: M's Phone # anyone?
Message:
Get a life Mirror. Or just look in the mirror. There's plenty of support here if your ready to get real
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 05:30:44 (GMT)
From: Mirror
Email: .
To: Mr. Free
Subject: M's Phone # anyone? (asks the fool)
Message:
You might as well be talking to yourself, as you are but talking to do no more then say your not happy.

Such a poor puppy.

To you >>>> There's plenty of support here if your ready to get real

Get real and get some help, Bill or Sam or whoever you think you are today.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:17:13 (GMT)
From: a voice offstage
Email: None
To: Mirror,Mssrs Free, Bill
Subject: is mr. godot here today
Message:
will he be coming later?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:49:30 (GMT)
From: Edgy
Email: None
To: a voice offstage
Subject: Is this the EPO Witch Project? nt
Message:
Not
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:28:30 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Open to thoughts on this
Message:
What is everyones thoughts on this.I find it fascinating the whole subject of brainwashing and mind control fascinating.I find it incredible how human beings can be enticed into a mind set and how what seems absolutely absurd to one person(as in a belief system)can be the focus of another person's entire life.I guess it is just a matter of how much a person has been conditioned to think.I have studied hypnotherapy and from this I realised that anyone can be programmed into a mode of belief through a certain ammount of conditioning and then of reinforcement of those ideas.This leads to my fascination of what must M's children think of their father.Noth of the girls now have knowledge.Both of the boys do not.What must go through their minds when obviosly they have seen stuff that other premies close to him have seen and yet they go along with the whole thing.Us this fascinating or what?I would appreciate some other peoples'views on this.PS I knew arthur brigham back in the early 80's.I was asked to massage him a few times.Yes,he was definitely a pompous ass!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:24:47 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Make that paranoid pompous ass
Message:
So I made him a meal. It was a delicious, nutritious, finger licking vegetarian feast of refried beans and tacos etc.

Firstly he just ate and ate as we all did. Then instead of picking up the napkin, thoughtfully provided, he turned to me and accused me of trying to make him look like a fool deliberately, by giving him food that was messy to eat!!!

I hope, despite these reported heroin problems, that Arthur Brigham is in better shape now that he doesn't spend so much time being a clone for his master.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 12:18:22 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Open to thoughts on this
Message:
Hi Aussi Ji

As regards brainwashing- it seems fairly simple. You just have to tell someone the same thing over and over and over- and eventually they believe it.

This is what used to happen every night in 'satsang' meetings- year after year- we were told 'knowledge' was an experience of inner Truth and Maharaji was the Perfect Master- eventually we believed it.

As regards the children- they've never been out of the environment of the Perfect Master. It will be interesting to see if any of them break free and get their own lives together one day.

Anth the brainwashed, bleached, spun dry then jumped back in the mud again.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:26:51 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Brainwashing/Programming
Message:
I agree with Anth about the 'repeating over and over' aspect of brainwashing in the Maharaji cult, although I think 'brainwashing' is such a loaded word that I don't like to use it.

Most of the esential 'brainwashing' in the Maharaji cult (I have always used 'programming' but maybe that's just as bad) goes on in the aspriant process, before people actually receive knowledge. The aspriant pocess is said to be where you get your questions answered. But that isn't what happens at all. What really happens is that an aspirant gets 'programmed' to repress all questions, or at least not listen to, or express them. It's very clear that if you do express them, you won't get knowledge. And knowledge is described as this wonderful gift that otherwise can't be described. And there is no objective standard that says when someone is 'ready' for knowledge, so an aspirant is very vulnerable to fearing even the appearance of doubt or having questions. So, there is a lot of motivation to act programmed, and if you act programmed, you probably will be. By that time, when you receive knowledge and actually experience that it isn't really anything other than four, mundane meditation techniques, there is a good chance you will avoid or repress any doubt about any of it.

This is the essential thing, that I think happens in every cult. The trappings are different, but the programming is much the same. But for a lot of people the programming doesn't work and they leave, nonetheless. I think that partly depends on the kind of outside support they have, and whether they have someone in their life that will make them think about what they are doing, and why they believe what they do.

I also think you can't underestimate that believing in something fulfills some human needs. Like belonging to a 'group.' Like feeling 'special' that you have things others don't. Like believing you have something you can always rely on, in a life that has its ups and downs and is always changing. It can be nice to have something like that, even if it doesn't really work.

Then, once you are programmed, and are a 'member' of the cult, the more time you spend in it, the more difficult it is to question the way you have been programmed, because that means questioning a whole period of your life, cherished beliefs.

Plus, the Maharaji cult has always been largely based on fear. Maharaji, for years, scared the shit out of us that we could fall off the path and miss the beautiful experience at any time, and could fall back into the darkness, so watch out. Therefore, entertaining any doubt is very dangerous, and one of the reasons premies are so obtuse and confused in they way they talk, using illogic and mental back flips to avoid expressing doubt, even when confronted with evidence. They also use other mechanisms to avoid doubts, like rationalization, etc., and certainly, no matter how much 'modern premies' they might be, they NEVER express doubts, especially about Maharaji. It causes them SEVERE stress and distress to ever do that. I think we all know this from personal experience.

Fear of doubts is another reason many premies are afraid even to visit this website, or talk to an ex-premie. And, as we also know, that programming doesn't necessarily go away when you leave the cult. You have to work at getting rid of it. That can take quite a bit of time, and isn't always easy, as I think we also know from personal experience.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 00:38:30 (GMT)
From: Aussi JI
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Brainwashing/Programming
Message:
Hi Joe,That was very well written indeed.You made a lot of very good points.I remember going to satsang 7 nights a week and feeling guilty as hell if i missed a night.I guess I was needing that reinforcement to stop the doubts from coming to the surface.It seems so clear now.I also wonder whether most of us came along in our late teens or early twenties,and I guess we were looking for somewhere to fit in and to belong.Now most of us are in our late forties and early fifties and have hopefully found inner contentment that comes simply from living and being free to think and do whatever we dam well feel like.
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 12:24:14 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Aussi JI
Subject: Not to mention
Message:
...those of us who had been scrambling our brains for a few years with psychedelics.

Anth the fourth dimensional hallucination

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 10:37:25 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Aussi JI
Subject: Yes great post from Joe
Message:
I enjoyed yours as well. I wasn't as badly damaged as some here concerning my involvement in the cult. My experience lasted from 1976 to 1984 or so. I never joined an ashram, never lived and breathed Satsang, Service and Meditation, I got my education (boy was I ever considered in my mind!) I was late teens when I got K. But by then it was too late! I knew after the 8 hour K session that hey, there's something fishy here. Where's God? I didn't see God. But as I said, by then it was too late. My whole young self was surrounded by premies. All of my immediate friends were premies, I lived with premies and I married a premie. It's very difficult once you are in a position like that and don't have a safety net in the form of a supportive family to step back and extract yourself.
Now as a mother of two wonderful children I am glad that I have had the experience of what a cult is. I certainly learned from it oh yes I did. It gives me such a better understanding of how to guide my children into adulthood. Namely, they ain't necessarily grown just because they turn 18 and you can better believe even at their young adult ages they are cult aware.
I'm still angry that the likes of M and others can get away with what they do to people. Notice how cults almost always attract lots of good looking, intelligent, young people. Our future and often the best that society has to offer. That's wrong and screw religious freedom, cults need to be stopped. I am also angry at the cult for lying to me and I truly feel for the people still duped by the likes of M and others.
I wish everyone well here and don't quite know how I got off on this tangent but it feels good expressing it.
Much Joy of the Season to Everyone, Tonette
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:29:33 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: grateful
Message:
Hi Tonette,I married a premie too and she is still a premie and we are still happily married even though I have exed(we are the real 'odd couple'We have two children who are both 'different',they have been raised to think for themselves and have never been pushed in the direction of knowledge at all.As it turns out neither of them are remotely interested in M or K.They are free souls and my wife and I are proud of that.They can make up their minds about that themselves.What I was going to say was that being in a cult has changed me for the better,in the long run.It has opened my eyes up to things I am sure I would'nt have known about.My life before K was travelling in a very boring predictable materialistic direction.K got me out of all that and now that I am out of the cult my life is great.I even have a granddaughter to enjoy now as well. cheers Aussi Ji
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:09:29 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Aussi JI
Subject: Maha And Initiators - Brainwashing Team From Hell
Message:
Your post reminds me of a sadsang given by Brian McDermot, the former Unity School principal who I was told was adopted as a child by the guru from hell as an adult. The story seems so strange now it's even hard to express it correctly.

I was an aspirant, and Brian spoke for an hour about how devoted we must be and go to satsang every night for the rest of our lives. This shows that in conjunction with the maharatweed, a little bit of corroborating bullshit can do damage for years. One person can be a wacko, but with 'respectable' people like Brian corroborating, the brainwashing effect can be devastating to a young, innocent, sincere truth seeker like Steve.

I was looking for a satguru as I had read that finding one was the only way to salvation and happiness. No one else showed up. I was smitten by Mahatma Krishnasukanand and assumed that feelings so strong must authenticate the guy and his leader who he ascribed the power to. I'm still trying to work out what went wrong, even with all the wisdom garnered at this forum.

I feel I'll have it all worked out some day. Until then, one day at a time I keep on trucking.

Regards,

Steve

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 03:22:26 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Maha And Initiators - Brainwashing Team From Hell
Message:
I am sure you will work it out one day Steve.Iam a bit worried about the phrase 'keep on trucking',it reminds me of a video put out in the eighties called 'keep on truckin',It was an animation and it was real bad!

Cheers ol'mate.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:18:23 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: P.S.
Message:
What ever happened to that fucking McDermot twirp?

Fuck with innocent people's minds because it will win me a trip to heaven by scoring points with the Lard. Sorry Brian, big mistake.

I get upset at store employees who speak drivel because 'I'm only telling you store policy.' I would need someone to restrain me if I ever came face to face with that McDermot idiot. Disunity School would probably have been a better name. I'm just glad I wasn't a student there. But maybe the adult version was worse.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:50:13 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: P.P.S.
Message:
When I mentioned above the possibility of needing someone to restrain me, I was talking about a possible verbal harangue and nothing more. I just wanted to clarify that. Thanks.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:43:12 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Gurucharnanand's take on brainwashing
Message:
He used to love being asked if MJ was brainwashing us. He would rub his bald pate and say, 'My brain was very dirty! What is wrong with a little brainwashing?' Loud premie laughter. Aspirants swallow nervously. Wonder if he still says that?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:35:29 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Gurucharnanand's take on brainwashing
Message:
Hi Disculta,

That was very well described. I got a picture of Char from the old days with that charming smile. He's not so charming or smiley these days. May be we should call him Charmanand being as his name gets mispelt so often! But really that was so scarey that he joked about brainwashing. It's taken me two years on this forum to deprogrmme myself after being in the cult almost 31 years. Not about him being the Lord of the universe but about him being inside of me and affecting every move I made or did not make. Yuk!

Talks about M 'retiring' and every thing will be done without M having to lift a finger. ie the knowledge tecniques video going to aspirants houses (and M will still get all the money that the fundraisers raise) What a joke! More like going into hiding because he's been found out at last. Someone who has been found out often does more and more things to be totally found out because they realise that their time is up.

So we'll keep in touch with great interest to see what will be the outcome of all this honesty and upfrontness.

C.G.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:43:37 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Open to thoughts on this
Message:
geez, me again,
the brainwashing idea is almost limitless- not going there as i just got home from dinner. Re what the kids pick up- i've had a secret parent life for 17 years (getting harder ). But if I had a mega mansion, I'd send the kids to their own wing before I invited the group over- so who knows what they picked up. interesting tho'.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:37:59 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: Open to thoughts on this
Message:
Thanks Sam.We'll have to stop meeting this way.A good pointMaybe we could start up our own cult and get rich and then send the kids to boarding school?Then we would have time to manipulate more minds to get even richer.I might start to learn to fly a jet even.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:30:07 (GMT)
From: Mirror
Email: .
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Open to thoughts on this {not for you}
Message:
The message I just sent maybe it may be just below this, well it was not for you so, no need to respond.......
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:24:08 (GMT)
From: Mirror
Email: .
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Open to thoughts on this
Message:
.

What medications do take?

ha ha ha....., now go to bed, it's past your bed time.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:23:28 (GMT)
From: Think4yourself
Email: think4yourself@self
To: Everyone
Subject: Bush talks about his agenda? Not now you jerk!
Message:
What a jerk, he talks about his agenda????? -

- then goes on to a type of high school paper read of we are all in this together......bla bla bla and the old God bless America.

Look out people we have a loose cannon/weirdo of a President............... keep your eyes on his actions not his rhetoric.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:15:58 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Life's great
Message:

Guess when it all comes down you can retreat to your vacation paradise. There you can practice the true knowledge of God and save the worship for the Lord your God and let go of all the scizophrenic listen to the mind trip experience.
God is love and light, unconditional grace and peace.All the brokers and divine salespeople of God, well, they just have to wait. You do have something precious within you and if you connect to it you won't be so negative about everything. That something is God, 'In him (GOD) was life and his life was the light of men.
Don't give up on knowledge as far as meditation, service for the benefit of others and true discourse of truth go.



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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 06:12:54 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: Life's great
Message:


Nice effect. janet has a good idea.



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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 09:49:52 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Yellow, out there! Stoner fruits: pink stinks! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 20:34:03 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Does that mean you don't like my joke to Mr. Free?
Message:
Gee, Suchabanana! I don't think I've ever seen you write so incoherently before ... I was just showing Mr. Free that I could do it too! And yellow is a wonderful colour if you're an Annabanana, but I guess a suchabanana is one of those exotic pink bananas.

Have a great weekend!

Annabanana

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 03:01:36 (GMT)
From: suchaBANANA
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I hate wussy pink! Can you do forest green? How?
Message:
Yellow? Yellow!

Yellow, Stonor, I just make ze little joke, yes, too.

Hey - Watch that pink banana stuff! [I am old swami, after all - not to excite me too much] However, very beeg, exotic pink banana can be most satisfying fruit for inner experience of divine ecstasy. Banana is very good for divine bliss of kundalini and tantric yoni, too. I am most excellent teacher of secret techniques to make divine nectar [amrita] flow. [I have heard of websites with naughty pictures of human-beast version of tantric yoni - even girls enjoying succulent yellow bananas, too. Shameful abuse of bananas. Maybe we file class action suit.] Would you like succulent banana, perhaps? They are very healthy for both body and mind - much vitamins, iron, potassium. You can make smoothie to drink, too.

Very important to eat your fruits and vegetables. Otherwise, impossible in life to distinguish salami from baloney.

If you ever make it to Nirvana, maybe we get together: I don't know if you cook: ok, perhaps you can't make my apple pie, but maybe you can make my banana cream...

Whoops, Monica say we canteloupe. She was once cherry, but now plum. No, 'plum', honey, not 'plump'. Ouch! Stop hitting, please. She have nice melons, too. [I think she like when I say that.] Baby, you apple of my eye, ok? [She like eat banana with nuts and whipped cream on top]

Where we were? Oh, tell Mr. Free that color Pink only for wussies. Are you wussy or mensche? In name of Prophet, I declare jihad against the pink Satan. You know, they call camel 'ship of desert.' Because it full of Arab seamen. What's yellow and very dangerous? A banana with a machine gun! So, you better watch out, you better not cry, you better not shout...

I used to be stoner, too. E-lec-trical ba-nan-a!
You got some good stuff? Brick of hashish? Maybe we all get contact high!!!

Stonor, how you change colors like that???!!! I only been on internet short time.

I have to go buy Mithrasmas presents now [you know, Mithras, Son of God, born of young virgin, birthday on December 25th]

knock, knock. Who's there? Banana. Banana who?
knock, knock. who's there? Banana. Banana who?
knock, knock. Who the hell is there? Orange. Orange who? Orange you glad I didn't say - BANANA!

Good on you.

Peace,

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 05:31:29 (GMT)
From: annaBANANA
Email: None
To: suchaBANANA
Subject: E-lec-tri-cal Ba-na-na - and LOL!
Message:



Mellow Yellow, Donovan.

How's this green? (Go up to your menu bar and select to view 'page source'.)

And how could I have forgotten about your alter-ego the lil swami! ;-) That's not what I meant obout the 'pink' bananas - there are literally pink bananas, you know. But just the suggestion of pink bananas seems to have given the lil swami some kind of high without any contact! Who's got the brick of hash?! (And remember, that's 'StonOr' - no relation to 'stoner').

Thanks for the great post, and Merry Mithrasmas!

Anna/Stonor




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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 13:07:42 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: annaBANANA
Subject: Wriggle wriggle
Message:
made it. What you two up to here?
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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 15:07:56 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam (and suchabanana?)
Subject: Wriggle wriggle (OT)
Message:
Sharing a joke. But I was too tired to be very funny - sucha was much better at that! ;-) Do you think he understood what I told him about how to make different font colours? I think I was too tired to be even a good teacher! The problem is, if I post the information I have, it will execute the commands and he won't be able to see them. But I think it was the 'lil' swami who doesn't know how, not sucha.

Anna

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 23:14:37 (GMT)
From: sucha
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: r.e. source code, what to change for colors? (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 23:59:58 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor21@hotmail.com
To: sucha
Subject: r.e. source code, what to change for colors? (nt
Message:
I can email you what I have and you can play with it which is all I can do, but like I wrote, it's impossible to post it here.

Anna

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:34:30 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: Get yourself a different coloured pen.......
Message:
.....it'll help your thought processes.

Or maybe you're wearing rose tinted spectacles.

Or maybe what you wrote is post-modern irony.

Aaargh!

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:45:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Sneaky censorship? Just highlight with mouse(nt)
Message:
ssshhh
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:38:43 (GMT)
From: C.G.
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: What ya going to do with that phone number?
Message:
Are you going to thank the Lord and Master for the wonderful knowledge he gave you?

C.G.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:07:01 (GMT)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: Life's great 'kissing yourself in a mirror.'
Message:
O'

Did you say this in front of your mirror? It would help a person like you in your need to bolster your need to believe your babble.

Try to get some help.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:28:35 (GMT)
From: The babbler
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Life's great 'kissing yourself in a mirror.'
Message:
You don't enjoy meditation? Free of the worship of demigogues? Honoring the God within you who was there before during and after the initiation? Life is great if your connected in the pure consciousness. No babbling about it. If you haven't experienced it then you got nothing really intelligent to say to me. Though you may not need help, you might consider that. Thanks for your comments anyway.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:25:42 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: The babbler
Subject: why dont you send this to MJ just like it is
Message:
remarkable. this is exactly what maharaji needs to hear, from every last premie he ever conned. do send it right on over to him, would you??draft it tomaharaji@maharaji.org
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:24:25 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Nary a word.
Message:
Al Gore's concession speach. He struck just the right balance between humility mixed with determination and eloquence, but not a word about electoral or judicial reform. Not a word about what ails the country, or whether there's a cause in any of this manipulation. He acted as though this whole 36 days was about him. What a loser.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:01:32 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Nary a word.
Message:
I'm not sure that the Gore concession speech would be the place to say those things, although I agree with you they need to be stated, and Gore could lead up the charge. But I think it's more likely, unfortunately, that Gore will just continue his bland campaign to be the nominee in 2004, or maybe just go off to be the President of Harvard, or maybe do both.

The Bush campaign to stop votes from being counted was rife with conflicts of interest up to and including the Supreme Court itself, in which two Justices, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas, maintain close family ties to the Bush operation. I understand Thomas' wife works for the Heritage Foundation, working on proposing applicants for a Bush administration, for example. That's clearly a conflict of interest, and Thomas should have recused himself.

These conflicts reveal how incestuous the emerging Bush administration is. The postelection also exploded the myth of Bush's moderation. Bush lawyer Ted Olson's judiciary-bashing argument to the Supreme Court and James Baker's furious, almost abusive, rhetoric reveal during the dispute, shows how Bush may well emerge indebted to the most conservative and divisive elements of his party.

Although there will be need to reform the voting procedures, what I think we really need, and what Gore should be talking about, are broader reforms, like getting money out of politics as well as passing voting reforms such as instant runoff and proportional representation, and, in the longer term, abolishing the Electoral College. For Gore, I think these would be effective politics. After all, hee roused far greater public loyalty during the whole Florida vote-counting dispute than he ever did during his campaign, when his support was luke-warm at best, and millions of people voted for him only because the idea of a Bush president was repulsive.

As I have said before, I think it would be a mistake if the Democrats were to continue the centrist politics of the Clinton years, thus betraying an electorate that feels deprived of its right to select the President. The Dems ought to grear up with that as a central cause, maybe with Gore at the lead.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:45:09 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The only people I've seen talking...
Message:
about practical electoral reform measures are Republicans: Olympia Snowe, and Jeb Bush (and Catherine Harris). Here is a real cause handed to the Democrats, and Gore has allowed the Republicans to steal it. Ds should be all over this issue like a cheap suit, proposing criteria, writing draft legislation, going on talk shows, starting to roll the snowball for 2002. In a week the opportunity will have been lost.
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 17:15:10 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Hillary and Feinstein are talking about it
Message:
So is Torricelli, who wants to run for president. I think a key will be if it becomes an issue in the 2002 elections.

By the way, I read Bush is meeting with Breaux today about him being energy secretary. What did I tell you a few days ago? Two birds with one stone. Breaux effectively becomes a Republican, Bush gets an oil-state energy secretary, and the Republicans get a majority back in the Senate.

Look for Bush to pull a couple of blue-dog, southern democrats into his administration as well. Like Taylor from Mississippi, Stenholm from Texas.

The real loser here is John McCain. I'm sure Bush would love to try to unite the Republicans and name him to the Cabinet (defense, maybe), but because he is a republicna senator in a 50/50 senate, he can't. Poor McCain will serve out his political days as head of the Commerce Committee, at least for the next two years.

The Republicans are sooooo good at dividing the Democrats, who don't have much unity to begin with. Look for the first Supreme Court nominee to be a very, very conservative Latino or African American -- probably a Latino. Very hard for the Democrats not to confirm.

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 14:25:11 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hillary and Feinstein are talking about it
Message:
Joe:

Good far Hillary and Diane. Hillary ran for Pat's seat, and it'd be great to know that she inherited some of his agenda too.

Look for the first Supreme Court nominee to be a very, very conservative Latino or African American -- probably a Latino. Very hard for the Democrats not to confirm.

Depressing thought. It'll be a test. I'm pretty sure that the public wants a moderate court, and there may be a bit more backbone to the Democrats as a result of recent events. Floyd Abrahms has been *very* critical of the court... maintaining that the decision was *not* ideological but partisan.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 05:05:13 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: And now Edwin Meese...
Message:
appears to be an 'expert' on voting technology, etc., etc., as interviewed tonight on Nightline. How did that happen? Peter Defazio was also on, as well as a lawyer from Stanford Law School (Pamela Karlan)... but these are all lightweights. Given what we've just gone through, this is a fairly tepid response so far. It's also almost amateurish. We can barely maintain the attention level long enough to talk about it.
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:03:38 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What I forgot to say...
Message:
about those ideas is that the real problem with them is that they're just to complicated and indeterminate to be the rallying point of a *cause.' Judicial reform doesn't cut it either, but it's a REALLY GOOD idea, and there may be a unique window of opportunity. A year from now nobody will remember who Judge Sauls was.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 00:59:58 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Nary a word.
Message:
Joe:

like getting money out of politics as well as passing voting reforms such as instant runoff and proportional representation, and, in the longer term, abolishing the Electoral College.

The problem from my point of view is that those aren't very good ideas. Instant runoffs might be OK, but introducing PR into a presidential system is really risky. Two party winner take all systems notoriously under-represent minority perspectives, while PR systems notoriously over-represent them. Personally, I think private life trumps politics, so I'm not anxious to see the political system destabilized.

Steve Ansolabehere thinks there may be a tweak of PR that would work in the US, as does Rob Richie. But think about it, how many presidential systems exist that are stable? The only ones I know of are the US and Finland. France maybe, but that's a hybrid. It is the most difficult of all democratic systems. Anyway, if you're really into PR say hello to Rob Richie at the Center for Voting and Democracy. I'll bet his phone is ringing off the hook these days.

I can't see an end to the electoral system, as long as there are predominantly rural states. And there is that little problem identified by Tocqueville: Tyranny of the Majority. I'm not convinced that everything the majority believes is something I'd like rammed down my throat. We could get a great deal more proportionality if we assigned electors by house district, with two going to the winner of the state. Main, I think, does that now. The only problem is that we might be talking about a lot of little recounts all over the country in a close one.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 17:06:09 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Nary a word.
Message:
Scott,

You obviously can't have proportional representation in a presidential race, I was referring to legislative races, like Isreal, Germany, etc. Right now, if you lose by one vote you have zero representation, and I think that induces apathy. If you are a Democrat in Utah or a Republican in Massachusetts (or a Green anywhere) you are just cut out of the system because it's winner take all. I know it will be difficult to achieve, (Lani Gunnier was considered a communist for even suggesting it) but we should be talking about it.

I think in the Presidential elections, it's more about getting rid of the money, and maybe getting rid of the Electoral College, even though that won't be easy either. Plus, despite the experience in this past election, there doesn't seem to be any outcry to do so.

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 14:37:50 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Nary a word.
Message:
Joe:

I meant to say that PR over-represents minorities in the legislature. (Not minorities in the ethic sense, but minority ideological positions.) You'd probably get more representation of socialist and fascist groups, which would no longer have to appeal to the center to be heard. PR systems are usually referred to as 'centrifugal' because they tend to widen the extremes and polarize toward them. Still, there are some forms of PR that could work. I think Richie is promoting superdistricts and instant runoffs, which are not really conventional PR. It's an uphill battle though. Same, of course, with reforming the electoral college although they might federalize the sort of arrangement that Maine and Nebraska have. Those two things are the kaboose, and not the engine though.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:37:19 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A word.
Message:
I was probably a bit too harsh. It was a very eloquent and unifying speach, just not the speach that would be given by someone I want to ever see running for President again. I'm going for a long bike ride, as soon as it gets above 50 degrees.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:56:43 (GMT)
From: Think4yourself
Email: think4yourself@self
To: Scott T.
Subject: A word. [and {more}]
Message:
You said: 'It was a very eloquent and unifying speach'

Yes it was, and in the context of the World Stage, this going out to the whole Planet.........

I was able to see what to me he expressed just before he spoke, which is subjective yes, but to me he let it be known how wrong the wrong in the World is....... But he through out his talk expressed the positive, {keep hope alive type thing} let us go forward, in that way we may be able to make things better.

All this in less then 10 min.....

I or you would of course do much better...{lol}..... BUT I do think he did VERY WELL for a brainwashed politician.

He did exceptional well. Yes.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:05:53 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Think4yourself
Subject: A word. [and {more}]
Message:
TFY:

I thought it was one of the best speaches he has ever given, and far better than Bush's. But the party needs a standard bearer, and there could have been a bit more edge to it so that we know he's not joshing us. It was good, but I'm looking around to see who will read this moment the right way. I don't think it's him. I hope it's someone. I'd like to see someone with Pat Moynihan's preceptions and Bill Clinton's political abilities.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:17:14 (GMT)
From: Think4yourself
Email: think4yourself@self
To: Scott T.
Subject: A word. [and {more}]
Message:
I hear you........

I have talked with B. C. on a number of occasions and I think he will continue to be a political influence on the World Stage for many years to come as well as his Wife the Senator.

But I think that you yourself are able to be of great influence if you want. Yes timing, luck, money, and on and on has a lot to do with it.

Good luck.

Establishing productive coalitions can be extremely helpful.

Again, GOD LUCK, I mean good luck.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:32:06 (GMT)
From: Mr Bubblehead
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Live to ride
Message:
Hey Scott,
I'm just on the way out for a ride too. What sort of riding do you do, and what sorts of bike, bikes, do you ride? My road bike is a carbon fibre 'Gaint' and is brilliant, and I've 2 mountain bikes, one an american beauty called a Pro Flex which looks pretty cool and a Raceline Expert that rides like a dream.
Happy trails
Mr B
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 05:53:13 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mr Bubblehead
Subject: Live to ride
Message:
I also just finished rowing 200,000 meters on a Concept II Ergometer between November 24th and December 10th. (It was a sponsored challenge.) That may have had something to do with my energy level and general attitude lately. I've been vegging out for a few days, so slowly getting back to 'normal' (for me). I'm aiming to row 1,000,000 meters this year. (That's 1,000 kilometers, but a million meters sounds a lot cooler.)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:20:59 (GMT)
From: Mr B
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Live to ride
Message:
Those bikes take the cake for looking weird. I have seen 3 wheelers that look a 'bit' similiar. They sound very fast, but the first one at least, comes in a bit heavy at 28 lbs. My full suspension Pro-Flex comes in at around 26 lbs I think, which is about 4 lbs heavier that the front suspension Race-Line, and so I never seem to ride it anymore. My young boy has laid claim to it for when he grows up, as it looks cool with the Girvin forks and bright red colour, although I reckon telescope forks work better.

That may have had something to do with my energy level and general attitude lately. I've been vegging out for a few days, so slowly getting back to 'normal' (for me). I'm aiming to row 1,000,000 meters this year. (That's 1,000 kilometers, but a million meters sounds a lot cooler.)

That's a lot of meters there Scott. I'm aimimg at mowing about a thousand lawns this year. I wonder how that translates into meters?
Talking of energy levels, I'm just about a Raw Food, Fruitarian these days, and I have soooooo much energy to play around with. Feels like my body has been taken over by aliens, and all the little niggles I've carried over the years are disappearing, one by one. YIPPEEEE

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 07:09:42 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mr B
Subject: Live to ride
Message:
Mr. B:

I don't know whan niggles are, and I'm pretty sure I don't want to know. Yeah, it's difficult to get the weight of a recumbent down mostly because of the seat, and the problem building a rigid space frame out of chromoly. The Aerocycle is only around 20 lbs. Then again the difference between a racing triframe (upright) at 19 lbs, and a V-Rex at 28 lbs. is only 9 lbs, and I'm carrying a lot more than that around in the form of fat deposits. The weight makes very little difference on flat rides, but slows you down on hills a little... especially on a long ride. You also can't stand on the pedals... although the faster upright climbers don't stand so much as spin at high rpm anyway (like Armstrong). Still, there's a reason why the Aerocycle is so fast. It has a drag coefficient of only about 35% that of a typical upright, and is nearly as light.

A friend of mine, who is in his early 50s, averaged 24mph on one for a 100 mile ride... with almost no paceline riding. It's the perfect bike to salvage the sport of triathlon, now that some idiots have started to allow drafting. What's the point of the running and swimming, if everyone just bunches up in the peleton?

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 08:59:35 (GMT)
From: Mr B
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Live to ride
Message:
A niggle is an old recurring injury, like back, knee or muscle soreness. For sure the best way to ride light is to get your own weight down. I know guys who spend thousands on lightweight bikes and they're carrying extra pounds around their own middle. Because of the work I do, the food I eat and riding of course, I'm just about all bone, gristle and dick these days, which makes for better riding. The lighter the bike the more fun to ride IMO. My road bike feels like its going to take off sometimes (reckon it would weigh about 17 lbs, but I'll check) and a light mountain bike can be flicked around easily, which means you can go faster.
I used to have a cromoly mountain bike and I loved the way you could feel it 'bend' into a corner, but aluminum is all the go today, but it's a bit too ridgid I reckon, but it is light. Wonder what the weight of your bike would come down to in aluminum? Probably shave a few pounds off. I know they can make lightweight chomoly bikes, but I don't trust their strength. I snapped the top tube on the one I had and that put me off chomoly, but it may have been a one off I suppose.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 15:30:06 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mr B
Subject: Live to ride
Message:
Mr. B:

I think most of the added weight on a recumbent is in the seat, but lighter frames would be some advantage. Until recently frames were almost exclusively chromoly, due to the low production numbers. That has begun to change. There's an aluminum Easy Racer called the Gold Rush Replica (after the first bike to exceed 65mph) and a titanium version called the Ti-Rush. Rotator produces a titanium version of it's Pursuit and Tiger series. There are even a few carbon fiber bikes, including one version of the 'Ground Hugger' that you can build yourself from plans, for a total materials cost of less than $300. And Lightning makes a carbon fiber recumbent that weighs only 19 lbs.

As production numbers go up they will get lighter, stronger, faster and cheaper.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:21:39 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mr Bubblehead
Subject: Live to ride
Message:
MB:

I ride a recumbent bike called a RANS V-Rex..

No sitz pain, and it's very fast. Designed by a friend of mine, Mark Colliton. I average 18 to 22 mph on a flat to rolling ride of 50+ miles. Would love to get my hands on an Aerobike. It's the fastest unfaired bike made, and has about the same 'feel' as a regular road bike... except a lot faster with a lot better view (you're not staring at a point a few feet ahead of the front wheel). These bikes are worthless offroad, of course, because there's no way to unweight.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:32:58 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Nary a word.
Message:
I missed it on purpose.
I am completely disgusted with him.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:53:15 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: they both looked like..
Message:
living examples of 'sincerity is the most important quality--if you can fake that convincingly, you've got it made'.al looked like he was on nitrous with a french tickler up his anal aperture. wait till it wears off and it hits him what he did last night.i finally figured out why bush senior wanted to be the education president: frustration over his dumbest son's inability to read, write, speak or learn. no wonder literacy was his obsession. it would be mine, too, if i had a child like that.al wonders what to do with himself now. for starters he could get over to the Amazon and stop Occidental petroleum's rape of the indigenous tribes.Dummy-you (Dumb-me-you?) thinks he's Thomas Jefferson. except he would never have children with of the family's black employees.
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 13:47:25 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: they both looked like..
Message:
Hi Janet,
We could use an environment guy like gore claimed to be.
That was the main reason I was for him.
Now however I think he is a power hungry liar.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 15:33:48 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: they both looked like..
Message:
i finally figured out why bush senior wanted to be the education president: frustration over his dumbest son's inability to read, write, speak or learn.

Except that the youngest son is Jeb.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 16:02:13 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sorry, I thought you said 'youngest'
Message:
Note to self: Learn to read.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:56:36 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Nary a word.
Message:
Scott, Having read down below, I think you err to align me with the 'winners' in the election.

I was not for bush. I stated that publically and also here.
My state was going to gore, CONN, so I didnt bother to vote.

However, during this process, gore has turned me completely against him.

You continue to embrace the 'disenfranchised', dont forget, it was DEMOCRATS that stopped counting ballots with no holes in palm beach in 1990.
It was DEMOCRATS that came up with the butterfly ballots, it was democrats that lead 90,000 people (adults) to the voting booth and didnt mahnage to convince them to only vote for 1 candidate,
It was that gave gore every break he asked for even when it ran against the law and had to be overturned twice at least,
it was democrats who changed the rules about counting unpunched ballots ONLY after gore was behind, it was democrats who lied
left right and center as a matter of policy throughout this ordeal as a result of gore's losing in the normal course of
the election.

I look for your posts in other OT subjects because you are so precise in some subjects. And educated.

I do think this political issue has you involved in a different way than other subjects.
perhaps because of the environment we get our news from is
so divisive?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 05:25:41 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Nary a word.
Message:
bill:

it was democrats who lied
left right and center as a matter of policy throughout this ordeal as a result of gore's losing in the normal course of
the election.

I've asked you before to explain what you mean by that. There have been misstatements, such as the oft-repeated '10,000 uncounted votes' when in fact it was 10,000 ballots, with probably no more than 200 to 800 uncounted votes. But I didn't see the Republicans falling all over themselves to straighten us out on that one. Most of the subtantial misrepresentations came from Republicans, one of the worst being that the Florida Court 'changed the rules after the election.' For the record, that was a minority opinion on the Supreme Court, with only Rhenquist, Thomas and Scalia concurring.

Yeah, I'm not anxious to ever see Gore again, though I can't figure out who might run instead of him. One nice thing though, the Republicans will be stuck with Shrub. What we need is more pot smoking womanizing trailer trash. It's going to be a long four years.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:10:22 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Nary a word.
Message:
Hi Scott T,
It was during the supreme court hearing that the 60,000
unpunched ballot total came out.
Also, that was when the 90,000 twice punched total came out.
You may have missed it because they were talking about the total figure.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:54:19 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Actually...
Message:
Most of the substantial misrepresentations came from Republicans,

I can see how there might be some disagreement about whether the FLSC 'made new law,' although there seems to be a pretty clear difference between finishing a race, and looking at a slowmo camera to see who won in a close race. It doesn't change who actually won, just improves the resolution. But the most troubling misrepresentation had to do with that constant business insinuating that you need some sort of extra-sensory perception in order to determine voter intent on a punch card ballot. What bothers me is not so much that it's not true, but that these detractors might actually believe that hokum. And what happens if such people are ever called upon to comprehend or understand anything more complex or subtle than a fork and spoon? Nah, how could that ever happen at the White House?

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 13:51:07 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Actually...
Message:
Hi Scott T,
Right you are, it is one thing that the underlings lie, bad as that is, Gore had no need to do it however, he could have made all the needed points by just being straight.

Bush will surprise us all if he doesnt blow it in many ways.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 07:57:52 (GMT)
From: brian too
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Actually...you make
Message:
A very good point, Fortunately ,we were spared the troubling scenario of our braindead public servants trying to muster up extra sensory perception let alone continue to pawn off the theory to the masses.

It is alarming how the 'silent majority' eats up this ridiculous shit once the media gets there teeth in it. I wonder if anyone would buy the theory that divine intervention stepped in and had the ballots rerun through the automated counters. Thereby flattening out the chads and ruining any opportunity or evidence of voter intention.

When all else fails, blame it on God, or if you are George Bush or one of his supporters, thank Him

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 05:32:03 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Just thought of it.
Message:
bill:

Yeah, I'm not anxious to ever see Gore again, though I can't figure out who might run instead of him. One nice thing though, the Republicans will be stuck with Shrub. What we need is more pot smoking womanizing trailer trash. It's going to be a long four years.

Just thought of it. Gray Davis. Not a womanizing pot smoking trailer trash, but you can't have everything. (Not charismatic either, but very competent.)

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:16:39 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Gray Davis
Message:
He's already running for President, but he has a huge crisis in California regarding energy, and how energy deregulation has failed, miserably, that could be his undoing. Currently, he is very popular in California, and is just about to become head of the Democratic Governors assn, which both Clinton and Dukakis headed at one time. It's a good way to get national attention.

But he is awfully bland, and he is a Clintonesque-type Democrat, that won't inspire the left wing of the party in the least.

I swore I would never vote for Gray Davis, after he ran an ad in the democratic primary accusing Diane Feinstein to being as bad as Leona Helmsley. But I ate my words when the alternative was Dan Lungren.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:15:05 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Gray Davis
Message:
Isnt it awful how we are limited in our choices?
And the ones you want to support because of issues, sometimes drive you nuts for other reasons.

For me, gore fried me out during these last weeks but I support most of his core issues.

Gary Hart had promise, he self destructed, Clinton is amazing in some ways, he did blunder, it is too bad.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:12:48 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Gray Davis
Message:
Think of what it's like to have to put up with a king for his entire life. Puts the next four in perspective.
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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 13:54:00 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Gray Davis
Message:
yeah right! Imagine those in cuba, since 1960!
and all those dictators that just keep living and staying inpower.
That must be dreadful.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:54:20 (GMT)
From: Brian too
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Nary a word.
Message:
I caught the speech, and possibly the hidden agenda behind it. He bowed out with just enough grace to leave the door open for another run. The country was growing tired of his stalling and legal posturing. He did what every chicken shit politician does, he went with the polls and got out while the gittin was still good
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:52:51 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Nary a word.
Message:
I should also say that I'm just as disappointed in the media. These people are barely competent. I really think there is a conspicous leadership vacuum, and that's why we have the likes of Bush and Gore running for presidink. I feel like I'm starting out on a cross country drive, with bald tires and a leaky transmission.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:59:16 (GMT)
From: brian too
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: sounds like
Message:
the standard equipment on many of the vehicles departing to several festivals of days past
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 02:45:45 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Nary a word.
Message:
It's just that there's such a HUGE window of opportunity here, for an agenda that will be both inspiring and pragmatic... and no one taking up the challenge. If Bush does so he will not only have stolen the election, but stolen the cause too. Gore is a nitwit for allowing that to happen. Really a nitwit. I don't want to ever see him running for office again. Maybe I should run for office myself. I hear old pot smokers are just what the country is looking for.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:02:45 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Nary a word.
Message:
Please move up to Canada, preferably Vancouver. I don't know any exes here and the Marijuana Party Of Canada could use someone with your talents. Besides, we don't have a restriction that the prime minister must be born in Canada - or, judging by Chretien, even have any language skills or a brain for that matter.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:02:29 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Nary a word.
Message:
Now THAT is something I would support.
YOUR head in the oval office.
Not that I want to see you in your effort to get there!
That is an exhausting drive of meetings and speeches.
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