Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 16:19:08 (GMT)
From: Dec 11, 2000 To: Dec 21, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Ulf -:- Arthur Bricham -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 21:28:05 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Arthur Brigham search results -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 02:48:06 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Arthur Brigham -- what I have been told -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 23:16:38 (GMT)
__ __ 60 minutes............... -:- Arthur Brigham -- what I have been told -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:48:12 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Ulf, it was Arthur Brigham, don't know status (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 21:55:20 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Free -:- Anyone know where Bill and Jane Patterson are? -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 22:29:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Anyone know where Bill and Jane Patterson are? -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 00:03:48 (GMT)

cq -:- Life's priorities, by Mr Prem Pal (yawn) Rawat: -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 19:32:40 (GMT)
__ Way -:- The Living Perfect Master and television -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 20:07:12 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- He likes the 3 Stooges? He can't be all bad then: -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 20:14:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Wanna bet? -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 21:09:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Tarzan -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 01:40:21 (GMT)
__ BaiJi -:- Leave no room for doubt in your mind! -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 19:55:24 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Funny you should say that ... -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 20:07:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- A caption for you....... -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 21:44:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- A caption for you....... -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:16:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Funny you should say that ... -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 20:25:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- heh ... heh ... -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:24:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- heh ... heh ... -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:15:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- heh ... he ... ho ... who??? -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:45:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- heh ... he ... ho ... who??? thanks -:- Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:48:16 (GMT)

Mr. Free -:- Hatred is not the way -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 17:24:07 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Hatred is here to stay -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 18:26:32 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Hatred is here to stay -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 23:49:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Free -:- Hatred is here to stay -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 00:21:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Love and Hate -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 02:00:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mr. Free -:- But I like my beer -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 02:27:57 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- The missing chapter of the Jagdeo issue now online -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 17:16:46 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- The missing chapter of the Jagdeo issue now online -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 15:46:30 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Good for Terry -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:37:48 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- I liked Terry Y. Looks like things were untenable. -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:51:05 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- She must be in a turmoil, I guess -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 17:23:28 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- My X-mas wish -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 02:14:16 (GMT)

Way -:- Two Moonie stories -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 16:22:20 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Trade 2 m. pics for a SIGNED Moon? We was robbed! -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:30:08 (GMT)
__ Gail -:- All cults really are the same! -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 17:42:13 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- Cringe cringe -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 20:56:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joy -:- Moonies/Premies = Not Much Difference -:- Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:28:34 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Thanks for my morning cringe... -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 16:38:27 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Thanks for my morning cringe... -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 18:31:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Thanks for my morning cringe... -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 02:22:10 (GMT)

JTF -:- Would I have been duped by Fatso rawat if...... -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 16:00:13 (GMT)
__ Gail -:- Ya, but who wants long-distance learning when -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 16:12:18 (GMT)
__ __ jondon -:- Now with the advent of the Internet... -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 20:53:48 (GMT)

Mr Free -:- Thank god for this website -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 09:06:59 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Thank god for this website -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 22:47:53 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Thank god for this website -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 14:48:56 (GMT)
__ Gail the Mortified -:- Thank god you live in the US far away from here -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 14:38:27 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Thank god you live in the US far away from here -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 14:57:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Free -:- I never shot at anyone -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 16:57:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gail the Gullible -:- Whew! Glad to hear it! (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 17:26:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mr. Free -:- Whew! Glad to hear it! (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 17:38:38 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Lot of work out there for a hired gun! -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 12:40:22 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Thank god for this website -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 10:29:32 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Chill out -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 10:07:04 (GMT)

Way -:- Regarding Gee's post about Rawat business interest -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 19:50:55 (GMT)
__ Way -:- To Gee, on Paul Brunton -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:21:15 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- To Gee, on Paul Brunton -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 01:26:07 (GMT)

Film Critic -:- New Christmas movie scares kids -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 17:08:17 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- OK bigted, tell us who you are? -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 00:52:23 (GMT)
__ Scared ex-premie -:- AUUUGHH......And we loved him? -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 23:23:04 (GMT)
__ bill -:- scary!-nt -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 18:31:24 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Yowwww! ... The guru who stole Christ! (nt) -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:09:01 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Oops, we can not find your page -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 17:14:15 (GMT)
__ __ Fil Critic -:- FTP glitch, try it now NT -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 17:26:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Scary, Creepy and Ugly...............nt -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 00:26:03 (GMT)

brian -:- Find Some Good -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 08:47:37 (GMT)
__ Mr Free -:- Right on Brian -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 00:21:48 (GMT)
__ __ brian too -:- Right on Brian -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 21:22:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- I was there too in Seventy too.... -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 03:10:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ X -:- I was there too in Seventy too.... -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:39:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian too -:- Yeah Well -:- Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 06:55:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- See Prem Nagar now -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 22:03:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mr. Free -:- Seen it last night on the website -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 22:39:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Briantoo -:- Very Interesting -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 22:35:58 (GMT)
__ cq -:- So a con-artist who calls himself God ... -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:30:20 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- Why don't you call yourself 'Brian too' -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:03:08 (GMT)
__ __ Brian too -:- Why don't you call yourself 'Brian too' -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:42:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Nice audiance -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 02:16:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian too -:- Nice audiance -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 03:33:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- You are blessed my son -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 04:39:48 (GMT)
__ Lesley -:- I might be more interested in your opinions -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 19:15:49 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Good God! -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 17:07:15 (GMT)
__ Patrick -:- Find Some Good -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 16:38:16 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- I found some! It was an AFGO... -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 17:16:03 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Oh Bullshit, Patrick -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 17:09:23 (GMT)
__ Way -:- regarding your request for a little levity -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 16:25:18 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- regarding request for a little levity. Oh, Lard! -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 21:38:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- regarding request for a little light truth -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 22:32:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Snap!! -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 23:46:50 (GMT)
__ __ Brian too -:- regarding your request for a little levity -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:48:39 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Knowledge sucks! -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 15:21:44 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- God's in the vase, too -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 10:50:41 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- It's not a baby, it's an old plastic doll. -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 09:56:42 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Can you use a different alias? (ot) -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 09:31:19 (GMT)
__ __ brian2 -:- Can you use a different alias? (ot) -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:02:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Brian 2 or Brian too -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:08:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian too -:- Brian 2 or Brian too -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:37:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- How 'bout 'Cult Apologist Brian' or -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:32:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- That will make him a -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 02:18:35 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Exactly -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 11:45:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Australia (ot) -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 18:55:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Australia (ot) -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 01:31:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bazza -:- Australia (ot) -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:33:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- You're clueless, pal -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 16:34:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ brian2 -:- You're clueless, pal -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:35:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bazza -:- Welcome to the mosh pit -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 23:40:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ brian too -:- Welcome to the mosh pit -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 00:43:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Good on you mate -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 02:33:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- On second thought -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 03:18:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian too -:- On second thought -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 07:08:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Hey watch it mate -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 08:06:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- 'Lack of intolerance' you say??? Huh???????? -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 21:04:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Transparent manipulator, you are -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:54:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ brian too -:- Transparent manipulator, you are -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 00:56:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- thank you. I feel much better now -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 16:49:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ emile -:- thank you. I feel much better now -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:36:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- thank you. I feel much better now -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 14:39:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Emile's lies -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 13:55:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- All I can say is -:- Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 02:40:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Ah yes, another slap at the ashram premies -:- Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 21:05:17 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 21:28:05 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Arthur Bricham
Message:
someone perhaps remember Arthur Bricham , can you tell me if he
still is a member of the cult ?
He was very intence, very fanatic, but also funny.
I wonder what the years have done to him.
I hope he is O.K.

Ulf

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 02:48:06 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Arthur Brigham search results
Message:
I just did a search on Arthur Brigham using the Forum archives search engine

Arthur Brigham search results

This will answer some of your questions.

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 23:16:38 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Arthur Brigham -- what I have been told
Message:
I'm told Arthur had some real problems with heroin, which he got addicted to in Southeast Asia. I don't know if he still has the problem. I hope not. I was told by someone that Arthur and perhaps his wife got into trouble with the authorities for drugs in, (was it Thailand?) I heard that Arthur was living in Northern Australia.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:48:12 (GMT)
From: 60 minutes...............
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Arthur Brigham -- what I have been told
Message:
Naomi? Cairns? History? 15 years ago? Comfortable, secure and still around? Funny people here.
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 21:55:20 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Ulf, it was Arthur Brigham, don't know status (nt)
Message:
mm
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 22:29:23 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Anyone know where Bill and Jane Patterson are?
Message:
They were both good people.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 00:03:48 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: Anyone know where Bill and Jane Patterson are?
Message:
Bill Patterson was a jerk. Ready my Journey.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 19:32:40 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Life's priorities, by Mr Prem Pal (yawn) Rawat:
Message:
Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Mar del Plata, 5th June 1999:


'Flying down here from northern part of
South America to the southern part of
South America, you have to go, regardless
of where you come from, through some
very hostile territory. All natural, but very
hostile. And if you had to fly over the
Amazon jungle, and something happens -
just for a second, this thought comes: 'What if—what if
something happened and you ended up down in this jungle? What
would you do?'

I have taken a course in survival training, and in it we always
talked about ending up in the Amazon jungle, and what would we
do? But I had never thought of it this way. I realized that I would
have to learn to live all over again. I would actually have to learn
how to be all over again. Because now, it's very different. I know
where I am. I'm sitting in this hall, talking to you.

I need a handkerchief? No problem. I just reach in my pocket and
I pull out my handkerchief. I want to know what time it is? No
problem, I just look and I know what time it is. If I need to call
somebody in America, no problem. I pick up my phone and I dial
the number. If I feel like reading something interesting, no
problem. All I have to do is go to a place where I can buy the
magazine that I want, and I can read my magazine and get all
my new information. Hungry? Don't worry about it. I have a
refrigerator, I open the refrigerator, there is some food sitting
there, cold, chilled—waiting to be eaten. Waiting. It's not doing
anything else, it's just waiting for me to eat it. Incredible.

Bored? Ah, no problem. I have a TV.
I just turn it on, and I flip through
the channels Oh, I know so many
things. I know so much history about
the Middle East. Oh, and I know so
many Indian stories. Oh boy, do I
know Indian stories. I know the most
complicated Indian stories you can
imagine. But, you see, if I ended up
all by myself in the Amazon forest,
what would I do? Open my
refrigerator? There won't be one. Turn on the television? There
won't be one. And you remember that fruit that was waiting to
be eaten? Well, guess what? In the Amazon, I am that fruit
waiting to be eaten.'


.
.
.

Did I read that right?

Here's this so-called 'Master', who has the 'perfect' Knowledge, and he not only admits that he gets bored, but that when he does, he turns on the television to alleviate his boredom ????

If knowledge is so good, how come he doesn't meditate on it?

Anyone out there care to explain?

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 20:07:12 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The Living Perfect Master and television
Message:
Mrs. Rawat once related how she was watching television with her husband and noticed that the lotus feet had no pillow. She quickly fetched one and arranged things more properly. However, a few moments later she noticed that the Perfect Master had kicked the pillow away.

I don't know exactly the point of the story or why Durga Ji would recount it, but I do remember wondering what the Lord was watching on American television and if it disturbed his permanent God-consciousness in any way. I couldn't think of a single television show that would be worthy of his viewing. (I learned later that he particularly likes 'the Three Stooges.')

Such things are not for us mere mortals to wonder about. We might as well wonder what God was up to for the millions of years that dinosaurs ruled the planet.

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 20:14:25 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: He likes the 3 Stooges? He can't be all bad then:
Message:
... not sure about his dress sense though

click here!

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 21:09:50 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: cq and Way
Subject: Wanna bet?
Message:
I read that a certain kind of person can only relate to slapstick humour, and it wasn't very flattering. If I come across the clipping I'll post the details. I'm not surprised if he likes the 3 Stooges. I know 2 men who are slapstick comedy freaks, particularly the early non-verbal type. They are both self-righteous sexist extremists - one an Ann Rand worshipper, and the other a pious Catholic.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 01:40:21 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Tarzan
Message:
That's who rawat really is and he waches the Aussie series of crocodile hunter, reminds him of his reptalian origin.

Ooops, I think the animal rights will complain about this.

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 19:55:24 (GMT)
From: BaiJi
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Leave no room for doubt in your mind!
Message:
You just don't get it, do you?

By His infinite Grace, He pretends to be a normal TV-addicted human, like us, so that we feel better about ourselves. He created the Amazon, for God's sake! Do you really think He is afraid of His own creation?

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 20:07:59 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: BaiJi
Subject: Funny you should say that ...
Message:
Imagine the Maha on his way to a close encounter with his fears ...

.... can you picture it?

like this! (click here)


.
.
.
.

(we need a caption for this - any offers?)

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 21:44:13 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: A caption for you.......
Message:

' We'll have two more of what the Master drinks please.'

How you getting on with the Charity Commission ?

I've probably got a bee in my bonnet , but I think the crown could be the weak link in Rawat's 'perfect' legal entity.


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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:16:31 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: A caption for you.......
Message:
How's you bin, Bin?

Don't think we've exchanged posts before, but thanks for asking about my efforts with the Charity Commissioners.

Well, it's been educational for me. My first letters to them were full of the righteous indignation that this site inspires, but unfortunately cuts very little ice with the personnel who work for UK governmental authorities (like the CC). They like a more sober, understated approach, and my more recent letters have been models of that. But still the old (apparently) insurmountable barrier keeps raising its ugly head. For every infringement (to my mind) of the principles of charity law, they come up with a get-out clause that (they think) absolves them of having to instigate an investigation. I understand that investigations are costly and time-consuming, and to implement one requires solid evidence of infringement of the law relating to Charities.

As Michael Dettmers has told us, the structure of M's finances is virtually impregnable, and leaves no chink in his armour to press charges of any kind. And until it can be demonstrated that he has infringed regulations or broken laws, they're ain't much the authorities can do.

But I'm working on it. And am always glad to hear of other peoples' ideas. This is something we can all help towards, especially since each and every country has their OWN laws regarding charities, and what might not work in the UK might be effective somewhere else. So, everybody - volunteers required! - not necessarily to write letters of complaint or anything, but simply to research the regulations in your own country. Let's find a loophole that could get some bad press for the maha!

To the search-engines, everyone!

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 20:25:08 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Funny you should say that ...
Message:
Don't worry guys, we're safe,the lord of the universe is piloting that plane.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:24:16 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: heh ... heh ...
Message:
nice one, Kelly

Maybe the other pilot isn't quite so sure, and just has time to say to his co-pilot:

'you mean the one that sacrificed His own Son last time? ... ooooooooooooh shiiiiitt!'

.
.
.
.

(ain't I the old cynic, eh?)

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:15:30 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: heh ... heh ...
Message:
Ooooooooh You sure are!
Also I see you are some sort of expert on the charities commission. I only ask because i am in process of setting up a charity Don't worry ,its not about god or truth or anything, its an arts education foundation.If you have any time to spare maybe we could get in touch?
love kelly
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:45:42 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: heh ... he ... ho ... who???
Message:
'expert'? - far from it, Kelly. I'm just a punter who'd like to see Mr Rawat stop leaching off the loopholes in the system. (consider: if the Commissioners recently denied Scientology charity status - as they did - I'm sure they need to re-examine EV too). To that end I've written a few letters, but haven't really got anywhere with them yet.

As for your own arts education foundation, it sounds like a good idea, and if it's UK-based, then the most useful info I can offer is the CC's own website (be warned -it's big!) at http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/

But - honest injun - expert on charity matters I most certainly ain't!

Best of luck

Chris

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:48:16 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: heh ... he ... ho ... who??? thanks
Message:
Chris, thanks for that, i've bookmarked it...I think i'll read it later!!
Kelly
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 17:24:07 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hatred is not the way
Message:
My apologies to those who were chilled by what I said. I did not actually hurt anyone nor have I ever fired a weapon at anyone. Sorry for any misunderstandings that may have accrued. I was on my third beer when I wrote that.
I thank God everyday for my family and try to love and cultivate good feelings. Service is good, it for me means helping to ease burdens and relieve sufferings. It means feeding hungry, housing homeless etc. etc. Instead of pouring money ito someones cash cow I want service to impact lives in a positive way.
Getting free doesn't mean abandoning the search for soul enrichment and truth. Meditation still has it's value.
Forget hate. It is the enemy of our soul. We will heal from old wounds and that is why this website is good for airing out our feelings.
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 18:26:32 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: Hatred is here to stay
Message:
It is part of that dang human nature and is a close relative to the getting ticked off and angry stuff we are still vulnerable to.

I knew you were not still in that 'kill em all' mood that you were in once.

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 23:49:41 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Hatred is here to stay
Message:
I agree, bill. These guys who come around telling us let go of hate and hold fast to love act as if both are a light switch -- now I'm turning on hate, now I'm turning on love, now I'm turning on hate.... The truth is you've just got to know who you are, what it is you hate, and what it is you love, and act accordingly. You're just a phony baloney denying your own nature if you operate any other way.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 00:21:57 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Hatred is here to stay
Message:
OK I'll take a look at that. It has some merit.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 02:00:11 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: Love and Hate
Message:
After few decades of being brainwashed into thinking that I should love anything that moves under the sky, I had to learn how to hate. And you know something, it feels good to be able to tell someone I hate you and I do not like you because your ruinning my life everytime you show up. I do not suggest to shoot them.But it is liberating to actually feel the muscles in your brain moving under your control.

Maybe you should give up drinking?

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 02:27:57 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: But I like my beer
Message:

This palatial estate of mine beats rawats anyday

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 17:16:46 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The missing chapter of the Jagdeo issue now online
Message:
Correspondence with EV

Now including the email exchange between Terry Yingling and Michael Dettmers.

I've translated all this to French, without EV's approval, I hope they're not going to sue me for copyright infringement ..... I know Michael won't, but what about Terry?

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 15:46:30 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The missing chapter of the Jagdeo issue now online
Message:
Jean-Michel,

I have just learned that Terry Yingling has resigned from Elan Vital. I do not know what official reason she gave Elan Vital, but I have it on good authority that my response to her e-mail weighed heavily in her decision.

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:37:48 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Good for Terry
Message:
I hope Terry can sort all this out. I'm sure it isn't easy.
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:51:05 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: I liked Terry Y. Looks like things were untenable.
Message:
Michael,

Clearly, some fall-out is already happening, as a result of the information now available on the internet - especially here.

I personally know of several other dedicated, longtime premies dropping out in the past few weeks.

Breaking free is a difficult, emotional process, especially for many of the oldtimers. A crisis of faith, though, can become an opportunity for personal growth and renewal. That is what I have been discovering...

I certainly wish Terry well - and all the other sincere, struggling souls who have passed through the cult.

Peace,


PS Too bad you can't talk about the money! Do you know anything about m./Monica? I lived in a house with Marolyn in the early years - she was absolutely devoted to him! I knew she would marry him - and told people so, at the beginning of 1974. The premies just laughed at me; they didn't believe it.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 17:23:28 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: She must be in a turmoil, I guess
Message:
It's not easy for a very involved person leaving EV when you're pissed at something....wasn't for me anyway!
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 02:14:16 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: My X-mas wish
Message:
To have the details of the Jagdeo interview with the person who is responsible for the organization in India published.

But I guess that is a hard task even for santa.

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 16:22:20 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Two Moonie stories
Message:
Here are two Moonie testimonials, one con, and one pro. The pro story is actually more damning than the con! Read 'em and cringe!
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:30:08 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Trade 2 m. pics for a SIGNED Moon? We was robbed!
Message:
Highlights of Todd Harvey's testimonial (just substitute DLM or EVI for UC and Maharaji for the True Father - Rev. Moon):

'The winners, or people who made a certain dollar average, would get some special gift from the leaders like a signed picture'

'They seemed so sincere, enthusiastic and motivated that it was all a little contagious, I guess. And there was a simple 'logic' to so much that was presented. The universe started to 'make sense'

'it was shown how this was the age of the new messiah. How he was going to come as a human, walking the Earth, from an Eastern country, specifically Korea. How he would bring a new truth and solve the problem of sin and establish the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth in this time. How he wouldn't be understood or recognized, and would be terribly persecuted. As I listened to the speaker, I looked up at a picture of Moon on the wall at the front of the lecture hall. Suddenly, everything fell into place. Everything was clear. Of course, of course - he's the one! He's what this has all been about! It's so obvious - why didn't I see it before? I was overcome with emotion - joy, wonder, gratitude, awe, and even grief. I cried and cried as I assimilated the amazing truth that the Messiah is on the Earth now'

'I quit my summer job, quit college, and moved into the local center. I was sent to several longer training sessions for new members before I was put on the 'International One World Crusade' to promote Moon's upcoming public appearance at Madison Square Garden. We invaded and occupied Manhattan, handing out leaflets to every person who went by as if there life depended on attending. Pounding the sidewalks morning to night, week after week, sleeping on the floor in rented motel rooms and eating bagged meals gave us the feeling of working on a Heavenly crusade, making cosmic history in this crucial time in the 'providence of restoration'. The rejection and hard feelings of the besieged locals was proof of Satan's grip on the fallen world, causing us to work even harder. The actual event was something of a fiasco, but it was deemed a ' victory in the spirit world', and then it was on to the next crusade.'

'I was sent to the ' mobile fund raising team', or MFT, where I spent two years living out of vans, motels and local UC centers in the upper Midwest . We'd hawk flowers, candy, candles and other goodies in parking lots, office buildings, industrial parks, business strips, and door to door. At night we would go 'blitzing' (as in blitzkrieg) the bars and restaurants, moving in and out with lightning speed, so as not to get caught and kicked out! A good fund raiser could make $200 a day or more on $20 worth of product and $10 worth of fast food. It was a very strenuous mission, and we often worked 18 to 20 hours a day, seven days a week, for weeks at a time. We also had 'competitions' that were a reason to work even harder. The winners, or people who made a certain dollar average, would get some special gift from the leaders like a signed picture'

'In 1979, things started to change for me, if just a little, in the group. Maybe I stopped running away from serious questions about doctrine. Maybe I was bothered by the disparity between the UC public relations lines about the group, and what I knew for a fact about the group. Maybe I was more and more bothered by the recruiting practices we were told to adopt from the Oakland center'

'Well, there is nothing more unreasonable or unpleasant than an absolutely committed, completely sure believer, with all of life's answers at his fingertips, anxious to get you to see the light. I'm sure I was as obnoxious as ever!'

'In the speech he gave to us after the matching, he made the emphatic statement that 'From now on, the most important thing is ABSOLUTE OBEDIENCE!', chopping the air with his hands for emphasis.'

'By now, I'm in a really, really weird space. I don't know what challenged my faith more, the deprogramming, or the matching. It's hard to describe the emotional and psychological turmoil of those days. You see, the dilemma of someone considering leaving, someone having a deep 'crisis of faith' in such a group is very complex. It's even more difficult in the UC, due to the fact that you are not following just another guru, but the messiah himself. Someone on the outside says, 'Look at what he does, look at how he operates - how can that be God's love, how can that be the messiah?'. But if you really believe first that he is the messiah, then almost anything can be rationalized and accepted. It's like a 'catch-22'. And think about it - if Jesus were here now, would you second guess how he operated? Wouldn't you do anything at all he told you to do?'

'So, a struggling member is completely and absolutely all alone. I couldn't turn to anyone on the outside - family, friends, authorities, - because they just didn't understand. And I couldn't turn to anyone on the inside - after all, that was the whole question. They all had an agenda, and wanted something from me. I couldn't even turn to my own prayers, for once again, that was the whole question. Had all those prayers during the previous 6 years of membership been a mistake?'

'I told him my intent was simply to go home for a while and think about things. I wasn't completely repudiating the group at that time, and in my mind I was still unsure what I was going to do, long term. But he still insisted I stay. When he realized that I wasn't going to be persuaded, he put his nose up in the air, turned and walked away without another word. No goodbye and best wishes, no thank you for the six years of hard work, no please stay in touch and call me anytime, nothing. I had ceased to matter to him.'

'It's ironic to note that it is often very virtuous qualities that make a person susceptible to cult recruitment - the desire to do good, to change the world, to know the truth. Another ironic thing is that by definition, a naive person won't understand that quality in him or her self. That was my problem for sure - I was naive, and I didn't know'

Enough said?!

Peace,

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 17:42:13 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: All cults really are the same!
Message:
Why is it that cult members can recognize other cult but lack the clarity to see that they are also in a cult.

Remember when Guru Margarine said that 'suddenly you wake up and realize that the person on the operating table is you.!' Of course, he was giving us hints all along.

How about his rant from a couple of years ago--'CHEAT AND DECEIT. We must come to the master free of cheat and deceit.' How about his cheat and deceit. Who will cleanse his hands.

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 20:56:56 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Cringe cringe
Message:
Phwew! thank god i didn't get involved in a cult like that!
Kelly
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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 18:28:34 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: joy52@earthlink.net
To: Way
Subject: Moonies/Premies = Not Much Difference
Message:
Thanks for that link, Way. That was really quite a fascinating read. (And took up a better portion of my morning!)

One of the things which helped 'snap' me out of cult thinking was when Joe and I, way back in 1982 or so, attended a local ex-cult members meeting in the San Francisco area. This would've been the equivalent of ex-premie.org before the Internet days, except it was for members of any cult, not just DLM. There was quite a good representation there from various groups, and when these Moonies told tales that were eerily similar to some of my ashram experiences, that was like being splashed with a bucket of cold water. I had always thought the Moonies and Krishnas faintly ridiculous, but when I was in actual contact with people from these groups I then saw that the mechanics of their group were similar to mine, and that my superior spiritual attitude was something fostered by my group and supposed Perfect Master to keep us premies on the hook (and that the Moonies thought the same about their Lord and Master and about US!)

Well, that was all it took. We only went to a couple of those meetings, but I didn't need more. I felt slightly ridiculous for having fallen for it all, and then had to begin the long, delicate process of putting my life back together from scratch (not that it was all that together before I got into M), but just discovering who 'I' was after 10 years of trying to obliterate that. Nearly 20 years later, it's an ongoing process, but one which is ultimately so much more enjoyable than life in the cult.

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 16:38:27 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Thanks for my morning cringe...
Message:
So there we were, four brothers, eating with True Father, the Messiah, the man who will recreate human history. What do you say in a situation like that? I thought to myself of all the things I would like to ask Father if I had the chance, but I did not want to ask him anything stupid or trivial. I had this opportunity once before and had asked a significant question, but this time, I was wracking my brain for a good one. It made me realize that in my life of faith, I need to have a strong pressing question always uppermost in my mind so that if I get the opportunity, I can ask it of God's representative. What would you ask?

'Mr. Moon, why is it, do you think, people believe this horseshit?'


On another occasion in September 1996, I had been at the table with Father in Anchorage, Alaska and I had asked him the question 'Why is it so hard for us to be good?' referring to the struggle we have in our mind and body to follow God's will. He said that it is because we have inherited the Satanic blood lineage. Although his answer was simple, it encapsulates so much of Father's teaching, that we became controlled by evil due to becoming part of Satan's lineage.

Now that was a good answer. Sounds like a real good philosophy too. Where do I sign up?

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 18:31:27 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks for my morning cringe...
Message:
Way: Thanks for that! I liked the part where Moon said that he had to be careful the international Mafia didn't take over his businesses.

These were very scary stories, but you were absolutely right that the pro story was far worse than the anti story.

And Gerry, thanks for the fuuny question you'd ask Moon. Good morning yuk.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 02:22:10 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks for my morning cringe...
Message:
I think EV has the royalty to the application forums.
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 16:00:13 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Would I have been duped by Fatso rawat if......
Message:
back in the 70's I had known what I now know. Even if none of the allegations made here against him are true, I would've needed some answers to these questions. Can you imagine how Mahatma Ji or big-time important Premie Ji would have dealt with such questions? There would have been no 'knowledge' for me. Does anyone think that someone today could receive 'knowledge' if they asked for direct answers to these allegations. Legitimate questions for someone considering getting involved in what may or may not be a typical run of the mill cult. 'Yes, these are legitimate questions you have. We recommend the Distance Learning Program for you.'
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 16:12:18 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Ya, but who wants long-distance learning when
Message:
you can meet the Lard of the Universe in person, ehhh?

Even the taped diatribes are very damaging due to their brainwashing effect. A couple received the big one here (K) about five years ago.

The woman stopped coming to the cult meetings shortly after receiving K. She only saw the Lard once. Nevertheless, she felt guilty every day for not wanting to attend meetings or meditate until I gave her the cult papers from this site.

Her male friend continued to attend. Soon after he moved far away to a small town. A well-meaning premie continued to mail him videos. When the woman told him about this site and the general effect of K and M, he refused to believe it. Until two years ago, he was still receiving the garbage, although he felt no need to see the Lard in person.

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 20:53:48 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Now with the advent of the Internet...
Message:
anyone can search for and find answers to their doubts, or their questions regarding virtually anything. This is what the difference is over the past 20 years. I actually intended to pursue knowledge (if I could have gotten over the idiots crying over Fatsoji) but I had a few doubts and questions. What sort of humanitarian efforts does M make? Who does he help? Does he offer aid to people other than this candy coated sugar water?

I went to Yahoo and typed in Dumbo's name and was given plenty of choices to research. And I researched them all. I was especially fond of his own hideous site, espousing the same nonsensical shit he throws up in every video. Then I found this site and realized I had hit upon something that offered a myriad of selections of personal experiences and a history of the Fat Fuck that until now (with the internet) was unattainable. It all made my decision a lot easier and also allows me to understand the mind set of the premies around me. I really do not criticize them or dislike them, I have heard enough stories here (and from them) to understand what they are about. The stories here on this site have allowed me to understand without judging them. I do not think they are weak minded people for believing in this creep, their minds are however, weakened.

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 09:06:59 (GMT)
From: Mr Free
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Thank god for this website
Message:
I am grateful for those who took the time to construct this website. I recieved K in 71 and went throgh some of the shenanigans. Drifted away after the 73 millenium festival still loyal and hooked up with another mystical Master of the new age. He had recieved knowledge too but was 47 at the timeand though treating me well was a headfucker to one degree or another. Between K and him I felt defenseless against an enemy I did not know how to deal with.
So I turned to violence. Lifting weights and sparring and developing the mentality that all I had to lose was my life, I vowed to destroy utterly physically the life of anyone who fucked with my soul or mind.
It came to a climax one night when I asked my boss if he could loan me his gun. I told him there was trouble in the neighborhood and I would feel more secure having it around.He reached down in his drawer and put a 45 on the table and said 'You lose it you bought it.'
I took the gun and drove to the satsang hall in LA at Beverly and Larchmont. I had decided that I could not live in the same world as this guy and one of us was to leave this earth. As I was looking for this guys car to see if he was there some girl smiled at me. I was so hyper I fired an overhand right at her and just grazed her mouth. She screamed and all the people at baskin robbins across the street turned to look. I casually got into the truck and booked. I never saw that man again.
The point is That wasn't me. That was not the expression of my soul and it's love. Yes I would have blown his kneecaps off and legs and turned the gun on myself in suicide. But it wasn't me. What wonderful fruit of God's spirit. It was the combination of knowledge and this guy and the Qabbalists of another organization I was affiliated with. It was a total headfuck.
CULTS!!!!!!! Look out!!! Still I attend Satsanf of a maverick mahatma who is far closer to the pure teachings of a saint and works hard for a living etc. But to some degree more of the same ld stuff. Total surrender and devotion or no liberation.
God forgive me but for a moment from time to time I feel like the elimination of those who are the predators may be a service to mankind. I'm not a tough guy or trying to sound like that but, that is my reaction to an enemy that is hard to fight.
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 22:47:53 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mr Free
Subject: Thank god for this website
Message:
Mr Free,

with a name like yours, you've got to have sussed that the ultimate restriction on anyone's freedom is to deprive them of their life. In fact, it takes away a bit of everybody's freedom when someone does that.

Anth who feels free too (except in the morning when I have to go to work).

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 14:48:56 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mr Free
Subject: Thank god for this website
Message:
At least you're not into politics. Dental hygiene is a good, self-fulfilling field. That's what Sam Sheppard's son went into.
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 14:38:27 (GMT)
From: Gail the Mortified
Email: None
To: Mr Free
Subject: Thank god you live in the US far away from here
Message:
Say what? You were shooting at people. Good lord! I'm glad we don't have guns in Canada (to speak of).

Sir, it seems you were (or maybe are) somewhat mad. May I suggest a psychiatrist. This is a poor way to handle any situation.

Now, if you had said you pointed the gun at our former fair leader, the Lard of the Universe in total frustration, I could understand your momentary lapse of sanity. However, does it seem normal or rational to shoot guns at people unless you intend to kill them?

Without a doubt, cults attract the crazies! We are all crazy to some degree, but this takes the cake. Please get some help just to be on the safe side. You wouldn't want to hurt anyone.

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 14:57:24 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Gail the Mortified
Subject: Thank god you live in the US far away from here
Message:
Gail:

Wouldn't the address on Larchmont indicate that this incident he speaks of have taken place some 25 years ago? I was around at the time, and don't recall any such incident, so I'm not even sure it actually happened. It may have been in his mind. I left in 1976 so it could have been after that. But it sounds like old history to me.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 16:57:59 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I never shot at anyone
Message:
I was psychically stressed from all the occult activities. The conflict about M and the rest of it. I never shot anyone or shot at anyone. I reached a breaking point and after that I got as earthly as I could for a2while. Hanging out with down to earth people.
As I also said it wasn't me. It was not the love of God in me which brought me back to reality. I had to ask myself what has K done for me and what has all the rest of this cult activity done for me.
As for justice, karma can work itself out in the lives of others who dedicated their existences to duping people and making psychical and soulful slaves out of them. Don't worry their is no vengeance plan at work. As I said God forgive me but the thought crossed my mind the weorld would be better off maybe without these vultures.
It's about family and God with me and that means as much love as possible not hate.Sorry if someone got worried. No one got hurt and I missed the girl I fired on (I threw a punch). Firing on someone was not with a weapon
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 17:26:15 (GMT)
From: Gail the Gullible
Email: None
To: Mr. Free
Subject: Whew! Glad to hear it! (nt)
Message:
yabadabadoo
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 17:38:38 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Gail the Gullible
Subject: Whew! Glad to hear it! (nt)
Message:
Yeah as I said my apologies. I was struggling as I said against manipulation and control, and the idea that I was made an idiiot of. Love is still the true way it's just that we can redirect the good in us in positive constructive ways to those who really deserve and need it instead of being a slave.
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 12:40:22 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mr Free
Subject: Lot of work out there for a hired gun!
Message:
Only problem is, the real source of all the trouble is human nature and no matter what you do with people, cull out the
excess types, institute a societal programming (like mao tried)
or religious like the Iran mullahs, or whomever, you still end up with people with human nature and you cant shoot the damn thing out of people.

Although I understand the impulse to do that!

If you read here for a while you could do some growing in some good directions.

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 10:29:32 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Mr Free
Subject: Thank god for this website
Message:
All these gurus are just following belief systems which they've learned from elsewhere. None of it is real and the gurus are deluded. They speak with the confidence of their own particular religious background and tradition, just as a Christian or Muslim might do. They even believe they speak the truth but they are only repeating a long held religious belief which incidentally, is only believed in their culture and tradition.

You don't need these so called 'teachers' and I think the best teacher you have is yourself and those closest to you. When you realise that those gurus are just as much in the dark as anyone else, then you can see them in an easier light.

Perhaps we can become too humble and not realise that our own wisdom is relevant. And the wisdom of our friends too - we should never think that our own friends can't help us in a big way. I think you have friends here.

.. Dave

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 10:07:04 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Mr Free
Subject: Chill out
Message:
No one here is after your hide. Take it easy and calm down. Anger is the first thing you come across when you realize what a dope you've been. Are not you glad you did not use that gun. Sheesh.

I will come to you. It only takes time.

Cheers

Salam

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 19:50:55 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Regarding Gee's post about Rawat business interest
Message:
Gee appeared last Friday and Saturday and made several interesting posts. He mentioned, for example, a vague but juicy bit about some higher-up in British Elan Vital being exposed in some way. I guess he doesn't want to elaborate on that.

But the thing that got my attention even more was his remark about Mr. Rawat's business interest in a company dealing with software for aviation guidance. If Gee could be more specific, I'm sure many here would appreciate it. I am wondering if Gee knows anything about the company World Associates, Inc. and if Mr. Rawat has any financial connection to this company, perhaps as a silent partner. The premie Randall Prouty is a prominent member of this company. One of its projects is a multi-million dollar project for remote control of satellite and space vehicles. Several former astronauts are also involved in this company, some quite famous.

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:21:15 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Gee
Subject: To Gee, on Paul Brunton
Message:
By the way, Gee, you also mentioned Paul Brunton. I have a feeling that you have never read one book about Mr. Brunton. I highly recommend it. 'My Father's Guru: A Journey through Spirituality and Disillusion' by Jeffrey Moussaieff.
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 01:26:07 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: To Gee, on Paul Brunton
Message:
I wonder if rawat want to spread no-lije on Mars.

If he does have any involvement in this company, then most likely it is through another shelf company that is either owed by a third company or by some close PAM. If the company is a public company then all it's details including share holders and allocation of shares are known, all you need is to check the company register to find out.

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 17:08:17 (GMT)
From: Film Critic
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New Christmas movie scares kids
Message:
Well I watched this adaptation of a well-known kid's story and afterwards kept having nightmares about the villain. Kinda reminded me of someone.

See what you think:

The Guru-inch Who Stole Our Lives

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 00:52:23 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Film Critic
Subject: OK bigted, tell us who you are?
Message:
Scary stuff. Run children run, the protector of jagdeo is coming to town.
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 23:23:04 (GMT)
From: Scared ex-premie
Email: None
To: Film Critic
Subject: AUUUGHH......And we loved him?
Message:
What was I thinking? The bastardino, told me not to think!That is what happened.

No, is not HIS fault; I am the dork who follow him, I hear. I say: Bullshit! Look at those eyes!!!

Nice pic. Thanks for the reminding.

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 18:31:24 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Film Critic
Subject: scary!-nt
Message:
sdfh
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:09:01 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Yowwww! ... The guru who stole Christ! (nt)
Message:
great pic!
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 17:14:15 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Film Critic
Subject: Oops, we can not find your page
Message:
please try again
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 17:26:37 (GMT)
From: Fil Critic
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: FTP glitch, try it now NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 00:26:03 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Fil Critic
Subject: Scary, Creepy and Ugly...............nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 08:47:37 (GMT)
From: brian
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Find Some Good
Message:
There is an Old Arabic saying 'The Dogs bark and the Caravan moves On'. There is a lot of anger out here but you also might consider sharing other emotions on the way to 'resoulution' as well.(I misspelled resolution by accident but I like it) the tendency here is to throw the baby out with the bathwater entirely. There must have been some good things that you got from all of this that can still be appreciated. There are things that I still appreciate, for example I still choose to meditate, and I still appreciate M for bringing the knowledge around. I guess that I never invested a whole lot into this notion of God incarnate, or Lord of the universe, so it was not a big letdown for me to release that. I never personally heard (M) say that himself. I actually heard with my own ears Maharaji once say that he was only a messenger. And I read the same quote in an early issue of divine times. I did hear many premies on several occasions say that he was God. Which brings to mind, Any of the problems that I have ever personally experienced in this movement came from my association with fanatical devotees. My philosophy is this, if it quits working for you, or if it causes you pain, Stop doing it, and start over. Unless you are quite attached to your suffering you can actually get over it. It might be helpful along the way to look at the positives, there must be some, For me, a few of the good things that come to mind are, I had a fabulous time at many events and traveling the country and the worlds to festivals. I formed many great friendships, I got married to a premie once, big premie wedding, we have a great daughter. I have had a lot of laughs and fun along the way. I learned how to meditate and quiet my mind, I got off, and stayed off drugs and alcohol for almost twenty years ,the knowledge was a great comfort in that victory. I am better person today for having come across Maharaji. It has been mostly a joyful journey. I would not change a thing, Good or Bad, My question today is, is this an open forum, or is it a Dumping ground for just the bad stuff? Hopefully it is both, any chance of someone sharing some good memories and experiences? It seems that a post contrary to the pulse of the group usually gets put down hard. I know that I am inviting debate, We can debate and explain ourselves until we are blue in the face, for what reason? Even a changed opinion makes no real change in the world. It takes more than a changed mind or a shift of opinion to effect change in the world. It goes back to the barking dogs and the caravan continuing on. Unless of course you are simply looking for agreement or you are just committed to debating and venting endlessly. For many the affair is over, and the bitterness continues to torment and linger. Will it come to completion, through these means alone or can there be/will there be kindness and gratitude maybe forgiveness mixed in amoungst the healing process. I suppose for some there will, for others there will not. I respect the space of everyones experiences here and I hope that the purpose of this forum is to help people heal. It could be that my request for a little levity is out of alignment with the focus here, and by the way, Merry Christmas everyone
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 00:21:48 (GMT)
From: Mr Free
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: Right on Brian
Message:
Having been initiated in 1971 I go back a long way. I have no real bitterness, like why should I get too mental. I remember Prem Negar in November 72 and just turning around as M was walking across the ashram grounds. Two colorful parrots flew down and both flew figure 8's over his head. All of life responded at his presence.
Surely I don't worship other men as the embodiment of God, but I do respect learned wise and good people. I laughed so hard every day at Prem Negar I had to stop for puking. Everyone was just so...well, the people all suffered nobly. I went out on patrol everyday to find who was flipping out and reported back to Paul at the canteen to exchange stories. It was holy hell and Paul Happy and I laughed our way through it.
The point is there were happy memories and arggh..what went wrong went wrong. I still meditate and Mahatma Ramananda still gives satsang in Denver Monday and Wednesday. He broke away from Maharaji when he felt people were not being taught or initiated as Maharaji's father Shri Hans taught.
Take it any way you want but there were some good memories and many good premies. Bob Mishler caught on quick and I liked him. Whatever really happened in his death is someones bad karma. And as for M if he is good that is to his advantage, if not it's his karma. Why worry for that?
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 21:22:59 (GMT)
From: brian too
Email: None
To: Mr Free
Subject: Right on Brian
Message:
Mr Free, I was there at Prem Nagar myself in 72, what a magical mystery tour that was. I remember walking along the banks of the Ganges river that flowed past Prem Nagar and hearing the most beautiful albiet familar voice singing. I turned around and there was David and Linda Laflamme from the rock band It's a Beautiful Day sitting there singing on the banks of the Ganges River. This had always been one of my favorite froups and I recognized him as I had attended many concerts in San Francisco. To this day I still pop the CD in and listen to his timeless music. We actually got together later with a whole group of premies and produced and performed the show Fiddler on the roof for the Premies full costumes and all. M did not grace us with his presence as I recall. I have always been somewhat of a rebel and when they passed the directive not to eat food outside of the Ashram... I headed straight into town (Hardwar) and got Aquainted with real Indian Food, The indian way, the Spicer and Hotter the better. Anything was an improvement over the Bland rice and vegetable pablum (subji)that they were serving daily. They said that they were trying to modify for the western palate. Anyway, For 1 rupie (25 cents) back then exchange rate you could feast on a several course all you could eat meal. Chapaty's and Naan bread hot out of the clay tandori oven, I will always love authentic Indian Food. The funny thing is I was one of the few people who did not get sick. In fact because I still had my stength, my service was to go out and physically help and even carry some of the premies who were to weak to walk to the latrines. Then off to town for some real food. I actually got a few others to go with me on a few occasions but it was like this major breaking of the rules thing that was a serious offense. This sounds like a parable doesn't it... go figure
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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 03:10:10 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: brian too
Subject: I was there too in Seventy too....
Message:
I didn't go there to eat authentic ethnic , I went to be with the incarnation.

Yes you're right , he hardly ever showed.

That was because we were all too fucked up to be worthy of the presence.

I now believe that was YOUR fucking fault for skiving off into Hardwar when you should have been blissfully digging holes for your brothers & sisters to shit in.

Do you think he'd have the nerve these days to invite several thousand people to camp in his back garden ?

If the magical mystery tour is your major positive in all these years , you're one sad motherfucker.

My own positives are not for public consumption & don't in any case outweigh the negatives.

Which are: Rawat is a liar who claimed to be greater than God.

Rawat is a betrayer of God.

Rawat is........ fill in the blanks.

I remember when we got back from the 72 , landing at Heathrow in a plane where every toilet had packed up (due to constant use), strewn with refuse (due to 70% near death cases on board),

cabin staff freaked out with 8 hours of satsang , & then being quaranteened.

I'll always remember the expression of shock & concern on the face of the official who 1st entered the cabin to see what was happening.

Part of me felt ashamed to be to be a member of a group who'd allowed themselves to get into such a state , another part (the stupid one) said .... it's a lila.

You can't have it both ways pal.

Either you're a long time delusional (now ex)like myself , or you're still in thrall to Barry Bollix.

If you've got anything good to say for him say it.

I got out of there alive tourist anecdotes from 30 years ago won't do.


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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:39:25 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: I was there too in Seventy too....
Message:
>I got out of there alive tourist anecdotes from 30 years ago won't do.

I still have a recollection of that rendition of over the rainbow on violins because of the feel I got.
I don't regret the trip to India in 72 one bit.
I have learned a lot of positive things from Rawat including having great explicit respect for life.
So some people got sick. So did I. Big deal.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 06:55:10 (GMT)
From: Brian too
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Yeah Well
Message:
At least the food was Authentic,

I will respect and honor your discretion about publically displaying my list of major positives as well. There are many, Suffice to say that I lead a very full and prosperous life. The prem nagar experience is not the crown jewel. Today this was just one reflection, pertinent to a web site link posted in this thread.

I guess Amaroo is the answer to todays garden party, And I am sure sorry about Fuckin things up for you back then, I wish I had known you, We might have had a lot more fun it town

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 22:03:08 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Mr. Free and brian too
Subject: See Prem Nagar now
Message:
For Mr. Free and briantoo and anybody else who stayed at Prem Nagar ashram in the good old days: see Prem Nagar Ashram. Be sure to click on Further Information to see the Shri Hans Tirath Temple, now under construction. And see the special tree which is really five trees growing together!
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 22:39:39 (GMT)
From: Mr. Free
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Seen it last night on the website
Message:
The new temple looks good. Don't know where the people are at there, where the M free prem Negar is at.
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 22:35:58 (GMT)
From: Briantoo
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Very Interesting
Message:
I was wondering of late whatever happened to Bhole Ji, now I know. Bagwanji has gone through quite the metamorphis, hasn't he. I remember sitting under the Panch Pallav tree, I cannot recall what it is was that I was supposed to get from it. Maybe a free ride to enlightenment or some crazy notion like that....
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:30:20 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: So a con-artist who calls himself God ...
Message:
So a con-artist who calls himself God, and who gets a large number of people to believe in his con ...

... is a real Master, and we're just the dogs barking at his heels, is that it, brian?

So you got the 'true' knowledge from a conman, but still respect the conman? Yeah?

So how come, if you ain't been conned you're still defending his snakeoil?

(PS, I'm also awaiting a reply to my post to you below, when you feel up to it).

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:03:08 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: Why don't you call yourself 'Brian too'
Message:
I find this debate really interesting and am preparing a repost!
Basically I'm with ya,...But, there's a BIG butt...(unintentional typo but I'll let it stand!)
All the best to you
Kelly
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:42:01 (GMT)
From: Brian too
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Why don't you call yourself 'Brian too'
Message:
Thanks Kelly,
I like it too, Brian too it is from now on, and my apologies to the other Brian for any confusion I may have caused. I am new to the forum and had no idea there was another Brian out here, Sorry
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 02:16:19 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Brian too
Subject: Nice audiance
Message:
BT mate. You made it. Stick around. You are not Shroom by any chance are you?
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 03:33:47 (GMT)
From: Brian too
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Nice audiance
Message:
Thanks, and no I am not schroom, I am new to the site and I have been christened Brian too
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 04:39:48 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Brian too
Subject: You are blessed my son
Message:
piece of advice, take it or leave.

Read, watch, make your own decisions and do not let any bastared includung blubber(i.e. Rawat) or this forum tell you what to do.

You are free.

Best luck,

Salam

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 19:15:49 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: I might be more interested in your opinions
Message:
if you could put some of what you found to be bad in the trip down as well.

And, on the subject of changed opinions, I think it makes a very big difference. I've changed my opinion about Maharaji in the last few months and it has made a HUGE difference in my life.

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 17:07:15 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: Good God!
Message:
Brian, lots of ex-premies recognize that, while they were bamboozled in many respects by Maharaj Ji and his lackeys, there is much benefit in some kinds of spiritual practice - even, for some, the Four Techniques.

However, the truth is that the Four Techniques are not the exclusive property of Elan Vital. And the truth is that Maharaji is a pathetic excuse for a genuine spiritual teacher.

We're not all angry here. I'm not mad at Maharaj Ji. I left the cult more than twenty years ago. And it has been a much more exciting and spiritually fulfilling twenty years than I would have had as a Maharaji worshipper. But I don't hold a grudge.

So why do I post here, so many years later? First of all: Internet addiction. This site is more entertaining than most.
Second: I think that premies and aspirants deserve to know the truth about the ex-Lord. They really could do better.

He used to pose as the Lord of the Universe, for Christ's sake! Don't you think people should know the truth? Or should Elan Vital's disingenuous pablum stand uncontested?

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 16:38:16 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: Find Some Good
Message:
My question today is, is this an open forum, or is it a Dumping ground for just the bad stuff?

Yes, at the moment the forum seems to be dominated by those who hate Maharaji and do not value meditation.

The forum is obviously open to anyone but, in my opinion, there has always been a distinct problem here that, when the balance swings in favour of the more extreme and angry ex-premies, those who maybe still enjoy meditation and feel that Maharaji has had some value as a teacher (although they may not be entirely happy with the way things have run) tend to shy away.

The forum, not surprisingly, has a growing reputation amongst premies as being the domain of people consumed and obsessed with hate. Certainly at times the balance has moved to more moderate discussions but the forum is in someways self-defeating in that it alienates premies who after all, probably have misgivings that they might like to talk about, but find the hatred here too unpleasant and thus can't be bothered to participate.

I can't say I blame them. I think that the predominant angry exes sometimes undermine their cause by being too insensitive to others. Their aggression becomes anti-social in effect.

Personally I still find meditation very blissful. But then I feel that it is a personal experience that depends largely on the attitude that you have when doing it. I understand that to some it is not what they need to do. Maybe I'm wired differently, but I still get very 'high' on all the techniques, and I like to get high sometimes-and have given up smoking! I am just coming out of a long phase of stopping doing meditation because of the associations I had with 'having to do it' because it was Maharaji's rule.
I feel that it is my potential that I can experience light in my head and that nobody else really has or had any special power to reveal it. I acknowledge that there may be a case for some sort of teacher or situation where encouragement is given, but not one that you surrender your life to.

What I oppose, is absolutely not the teaching of the techniques but the demands that were made on me as a premie to surrender my life and give up the things I wanted to do in favour of being a cult servant. I feel that the cult, in other words, is the thing that needs to be deconstructed. It is easy to say that meditational experiences are merely some physical phenomena etc. and are irrelevant. I don't think we should necessarily waste our time arguing that, since clearly many people (myself included) get a very pleasant experience from it. What we need to consider is whether the teacher in this case is trustworthy and how those who may have felt that they were manipulated to their loss by the cult can get some restitution. That's all.

Finally, I don't need to pretend that I found no good in my life as a premie, I have many wonderful memories of fantastic times.

Incidently, I met Michael Dettmers for lunch when he was passing through London. We had some nice pasta and a great chat. It was very helpful for me to hear first hand the things that he has also reported on the forum and to ask him some of my own questions.

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 17:16:03 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: I found some! It was an AFGO...
Message:
I agree with the principle of finding some good in things. It's not the same as whitewashing the bad parts, though.

Here's some good I found through my association with MJ and the cult:

I got to practice meditation for years. Not knowledge. I can't with total clarity put the knowledge techniques in my 'good' list, because I think they are only a particular flavor of meditation, and being told that they are the pathway to God was confusing. But I did sit for hundreds of hours, and I became more aware of what was really going on inside myself.

What was really going on inside myself was a lot of emotional pain from a very dysfunctional childhood. Sitting for all those hours, after initially anesthetizing me, seemed to bring it to the surface after a few years. Then the repressive cult belief system and rules intensified it. Being verbally abused by a parent-figure who didn't relly care about me personally except for his own needs was a very familiar scenario, but it got so exaggerated by my experience with MJ that I finally woke up. This was good.

I learned all kinds of self-discipline and commitment and really became deeply connected in a good way to my breath. I blame myself entirely for these good results.

I spent a lot of years simulating gratitude to MJ, as instructed. This actually did strengthen my ability to feel gratitude, once I woke up and realized that I actually didn't feel gratitude to MJ. I practice deliberately invoking gratitude and appreciation in my life on a daily basis, and I have to say that when I think of Rawat, I am not grateful, except in the sort of round-about negative way I have described above.

On a deep gut level I know that he didn't have my best interests at heart.

I feel good these days, and there is a sense in which everything in my life has lead to this.

The biggest good of all, though, is that that the whole AFGO (Another Fucking Growth Oportunity) of going through the cult experience, which was very painful, was one of my last hurrahs in the growth-through-suffering school of evolution. I have decided that I am no longer, in this or any future life, going to learn my 'lessons' or receive my 'good' through being oppressed, giving my power to another, and going through intense suffering. I am planting seeds in my consciousness by which my growth comes through pleasure and ease as a free being, instead of through pain and struggle.

This is really good

Love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 17:09:23 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: Oh Bullshit, Patrick
Message:
Yes, at the moment the forum seems to be dominated by those who hate Maharaji and do not value meditation.

What? This is a crock of shit! This forum has never been more mellow and peaceful in my three year experience of it, than it is right now. I've only cut loose today for the first time in days because this guy, brown nose brian, needs his ass kicked for his passive-aggressive attack on the forum.

those who maybe still enjoy meditation and feel that Maharaji has had some value as a teacher (although they may not be entirely happy with the way things have run) tend to shy away.

Are you serious? Rawat has some VALUE as a teacher? You've GOT to be kidding! And man, you are a master at understatement.

The forum, not surprisingly, has a growing reputation amongst premies as being the domain of people consumed and obsessed with hate.

How do you know this is a fact? And how could you possibly know this? Did you take a poll?

I think that the predominant angry exes sometimes undermine their cause by being too insensitive to others. Their aggression becomes anti-social in effect.

Well, I SERIOUSLY doubt anyone here is 'predominantly angry.' My experience with ex-premies outside of the forum is just the opposite. And that includes myself.

Finally, I don't need to pretend that I found no good in my life as a premie, I have many wonderful memories of fantastic times.

Who's pretending? I find this offensive by its inference. Lot's of people have written of their 'good times' in the cult, including me. And to paraphrase Way, we would have had all those same good times even if we hadn't fallen prey to Rawat's deceit. It doesn't require a cult to make close friendships, fall in love, travel and have all those 'good times' as a young person.

That said, I think you are a gentle and admirable soul and I'm very happy to hear of your success in becoming smoke free.

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 16:25:18 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: regarding your request for a little levity
Message:
brian,

I have read the responses so far to your post, and nobody seems to have honored your request to highlight a few good things about Maharaji and Knowledge.

The trouble is you listed most of the good points yourself. We all made some good friends and had a few laughs along the way. The time we spent in our youth has made us who we are today, the good and the bad. Many premies married each other and had lovely children, and many stopped taking drugs, etc. But please note that all these good points are things that most human beings could say at our age, whether they were ever in a cult or not.

But along with your undeniable good points, you make a statement of opinion that truly invites objection here, namely that you still appreciate Mr. Rawat bringing the Knowledge around. And you dismiss the God Incarnate claims as no big deal. With these statements, you are guaranteed to generate some very negative and bitter responses, the very thing you say you don't like.

Let me explain the bitterness about guruism among ex-guru-lovers. I speak here of 'guru' as the man or woman human being who claims to be giving out the grace of God to his/her followers. It is a grand mistake to become a follower of one of these fake lords. When you ask a fellow mortal human being to give you God's grace, you end up receiving laced kool-aid or a ticket to ride on some comet instead!

You have read the headlines in the newspapers about gurus in the last two decades, have you not? Then you know that Sai Baba claims to give God's grace, and what he really gives is fake jewelry and ash from his sleeve and blow jobs to young teen-age boys. Then you know about Bhagwan Shri Rasnneesh dying of AIDS, not exactly a divine way to go for an Avatar. Then you know about celibate Swami Muktananda and all his little girlfriends. Then you know about Swami Kriyananda and his secret massages. Then you know about the suicides in Switzerland, the suicides in San Diego, the suicides in Africa, the suicides and murders of the People's Temple in Jonestown. You know about the divine marriages of the Moonies. You know about David Koresh's guns and wives. You know about Elizabeth Claire Prophett's stockpile of weapons. You know that Da Free John is God himself and deserves being given the Fiji Island he lives on. You know that Ammachi is the incarnation of the Mother of the Universe and her hugs are the greatest bliss available. You know that Gangaji is actually the Beloved of the Universe and anyone who wants God will find their way to her feet and they will learn how to properly obliterate their ego. You know that Guru Maharaj Ji is the Lord of the Universe and we must totally surrender the reins of our lives to his lotus feet in order to realize our own souls - wait, slight adjustmust, you know that Maharaji is a very good teacher of meditation and is currently in need of a new 40 million dollar airplane to continue dispersing God's grace and the true Knowledge to humanity.

You know all that. And you wonder why ex-premies are so negative! Why don't we all just lighten up?

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 21:38:13 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Way and brian
Subject: regarding request for a little levity. Oh, Lard!
Message:
Yeah, and to brian:

The claims were also by Prem himself, + via his thrones and crowns (the imagery and symbols), the staging, the propaganda photos, the loaded double-entendres about worshipping worshipping worshipping Guru Maharaj ji, Guru Maharaj ji comes to us in human form, god in the flesh, guru is greater than god, only guru can lead us across the ocean and save us from the maya, at the time of death only satguru, I have come before many times and now I come with full powers, you must bow down now and promise to accept only Guru Maharaj ji as your lord and master and have no others in this life (Knowledge session), Arti - you are my all, you are my Lard to me, wherever I look your face is before me, your golden arse...

If Prem is all messed up himself, and there has been cheat and deceit - then, what value does he have as a teacher? Because of the nature of what he teaches, and what he has preached, he himself is a fraud. He has disqualified himself.

It's been real convenient for Prem and imitating premies to blame Elan Vital and use Prem's organization people as the routine scapegoats for directives and policies initiated and approved by Prem himself. Everyone else has been screwed-up - Prem has used that line of abuse to evade personal responsibility. The buck stops with Prem -- and of course, the diverted mega-bucks.

Do you think someone who has lived a lie - in contradiction to what he teaches, who has ripped off thousands of people financially and emotionally, and who has royally abused his position as a so-called teacher - still has value as a teacher?

Maybe as an abject example of the persons and pitfalls to avoid on the path...

I sense some denial about Prem and his con, abusiveness, money-laundering and gross selfishness. Reading all the data available on this site helps. He is a big-time material ripoff artist. His whole fortune has been based on milking premie devotion and pockets and diverting huge sums of donations for his own personal use. Disengaging mentally and emotionally is very confronting and difficult for some folks. After all, the cumulative cult brainwashing is very powerful, psychologically.

Yes, there is still bitterness and anger - the bizarre delusions and representations that Prem dictated through his org - and the repulsive betrayals of the premies' trust - have affected and messed up the genuine experiences of tens of thousands of sincere people who had opened themselves completely up to Prem and his Napoleon spirituality trip.

I don't hate him. But the facts speak for themselves - it is important that the information is now available, and it is also important that those who have been affected by Prem's misrepresentations and cult org have the opportunity here to debrief, share their thoughts and experiences, help each other, heal, vent out the frustration of betrayal, make the best of where we are now, heal, and continue in our lives. It is also important that others who may still be unaware or in denial are afforded this opportunity to view the information for themselves - this is a service being provided.

Naturally, Prem and his org and its operatives will portray this as a hate site of rotted vegetable exes. They hate this site themselves! They don't want premies reading the confronting and incriminating data compiled here. Prem and his attorneys have tried to shut down any presentation or discussion of these startling revelations on the internet. They even tried to stop premies from having an ex-officio site.

Also, you've got to know that Prem is separate from your own inner experience, even doing the techniques (which aren't his property, either). So, somebody showed you the techniques. They're in books, too. Other yogis show 'em. Somebody showed me how to dribble a basketball, too. Can't remember who it was, though...

Is there an experience from practicing, or any value to the techniques? The experience is of whatever value you wish to make of it (or not). But that experience is yours. Don't give it away and mistakenly ascribe it to him.

If you want or need some inspiration, engage with those here who enjoy some spiritual stimulation and inquiry, chat with people who share similar interests (without cult-laden concepts and head-trips), or find a learned friend who can recommend some good uplifting books, go out and revel in Nature, and always look and call within yourself for any deep answers you are seeking.

Sure, this forum is not fluffy [like a video of a beach with a string synth playing in the background, while a voice slowly drones on about dung beetles up an elephant's ass or garbage rotting in the cellar]

So, how about a little gratitude and appreciation?! Or maybe you'd rather attend another participation video - and sweat and serve and fork out money to the greedy smuggler - probably for his next plane, Rolls, yacht, Rolex, helicopter, case of brandy, or mansion?

Peace,

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 22:32:17 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Brian too
Subject: regarding request for a little light truth
Message:
Hey Brian too,
I don't think you will find more truth and nitty gritty wisdom anywhere else. suchabanana really says it all, along with all the other posts on this thread.
I awoke from the 'cult trance' only a month ago.and cult it is.
This is an amazing statement for me to make, because up til now, for 29 years I have held the basic belief that maharaji is kosher, the real thing ,the genuine article...the embodiment of a realised soul .etc ,etc, you name it.and that his package...He gives K..K works...He inspires me to practice K...is as good as it gets on this planet at this time.
Sure I had my doubts and my niggles.. but we mustn't let them take over and suppress the beeootyfool experience within inside...No .Don't listen to that negative Mr Mind. But all of a sudden I realised that the voice within was in fact the real me , and I had been ignoring it ...deliberately...according to His instructions. I'm not putting this very well, but I suppose what I want to say is that I too was upset by the apparent negativity of this site...until Ii ha d an awakening and now I understand where they're coming from. And although I mostly also had a wonderful time in the cult , I'm only just beginning to evaluate the subtle damage that has been done.And maybe not so subtle. However I also have a great faith in LIFE and the way it has of giving you just what you need. I am soooo grateful to the people on this site who have helped to open my eyes. In particular, the testimonies of Michael Dettmers are essential reading.
I still meditate using the 4 techs, This has been a bit hard because of the association with M. But they have always worked for me. Though I have never practised in the way he prescribes. I've been doing the light tech since I was a kid so I still do it my way. Each time I meditate I get a glimpse of Heaven..I also get profound insights and my best ideas! and I get in touch with myself.
But..But I no longer attribute these wonderful experiences to M,
and I think it is outrageous that he has taken the credit for so long...and that I gave it to him...when all the time it was generated by my own sincerity.
You know, over the last year or so I had come to the painful conclusion that i didn't even like my Imperfect master, and now I know the truth about him I understand why and I'M MAD AS HELL!
Personally , I've had enough of trying to see the good in him, lets have a little honesty.. the guys a hopeless sham and the master of delusion. He's so good at it because he's the most deluded of us all.
Brian too, you sound like a lovely person, You are in very good company here. We just get a bit loud sometimes.
Glad to be awake, but now I'm going to bed.
Love Kelly
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 23:46:50 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Snap!!
Message:
Also see what someone called KK had to say on the 'best of Forum' a couple of years ago.

Better than Dettmers.

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:48:39 (GMT)
From: Brian too
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: regarding your request for a little levity
Message:
I loved your response, That is as good as it gets, Levity abounds, Thank you
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 15:21:44 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: Knowledge sucks!
Message:
And Maharaji is a big fat fucking fraud. I've got nothing nice to say about the fat fuck. The world would be a better place without him. What does he do besides run, make that fly, around the planet convincing people that their lives are empty, worthless affairs without him? Really, anybody who sets himself up on that pedestal is a worthless piece of shit.

As for the Knowledge itself, what is it besides four lousy meditation techniques he puts you through the ringer for? The guy's anethma, brian. And change your moniker. We already have a Brian who makes a lot more sense than you do.

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 10:50:41 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: God's in the vase, too
Message:
From the forum archives:

'In the 1960's, psychologists began to study meditation, focusing attention on an image or thought with the goal of clearing one's mind and producing an 'inner peace'. In one of the first experiments, people were simply asked to concentrate on a blue vase. The participants soon reported that the color of the vase became very vivid and the time passed quickly. The people could not be distracted as easily as they normally might. Some people felt themselves merging with the vase. Others reported that their surroundings became unusually beautiful, filled with light and movement. All the meditators found the experience pleasent. After 12 sessions they all felt a strong attachment to the vase and missed it when it was not present during the next session.'

I found this post using the fantastic Forum archives search engine.

That search engine really works!

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 09:56:42 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: brian
Subject: It's not a baby, it's an old plastic doll.
Message:
Hi Brian,

I think you’re cutting Maharaji too much slack here. Over the years, many premies tried to get him to dump the “God in Human form” label, but he always hangs on to it. I think he really believes he’s the Creator’’s representative on Earth. He only denies being God when he sees himself as “Greater than God”- ie- his “Knowledge” is God- and he controls and distributes it as he sees fit.

Also Brian- there’s something rotten at the heart of the cult- and it emanates from Maharaji. He’s one mighty confused, indecisive dude. His personal behaviour- how he dealt with Jagdeo- how he treats people around him, how he sees himself, what he wants in life- is a mess. The main function of the cult nowadays is raising money to support his extravagant lifestyle.

It sounds to me like you still believe that those yoga techniques are giving you an experience of the creator within you. If this is the case- sorry to break the news, but it ain’t God within that you experience. It’s not a baby- it’s an old, second-hand plastic doll.

I found my quality of life improved immensely when I quit practising completely. You should try it yourself.

And what you say about, “Looking for Good in Everything” could also apply to the Nazis. Well- they got the trains running on time, got rid of unemployment, got crime off the streets, built a great motorway system- and Hitler must have had a heart too- after all Eva Braun loved him- and he was a vegetarian and a bit new-agey. Maybe we’ve misunderstood him? We’ve all got a soul right brian?

It’s time to kick the whole trip into the garbage can where it belongs- plastic baby and all.

Anth scrubbing the empty bath clean.

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 09:31:19 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: brian
Subject: Can you use a different alias? (ot)
Message:
brian,

I've been offline so I don't know whether anyone has told you yet this site already has a 'Brian' posting here - in fact Brian administers the main ex-premie site.

Even if 'brian' is your real name, it would help avoid confusion if you could therefore pick a different alias for posting ('Bri', 'Brian2', 'Brian K' or whatever). Your views appear completely different from the other Brian's, so your cooperation here would, I'm sure, be appreciated.

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:02:22 (GMT)
From: brian2
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Can you use a different alias? (ot)
Message:
Sorry about that, I am new to the forum, just got introduced last week, and brian is my real name, from now on it will be brian2,
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:08:53 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: brian too
Subject: Brian 2 or Brian too
Message:
Just missed your post by a minute, I think Brian too is funnier. What do you think?
Love Kelly
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:37:05 (GMT)
From: Brian too
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Brian 2 or Brian too
Message:
I like it, Brian too it is
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:32:40 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: How 'bout 'Cult Apologist Brian' or
Message:
'Brainwashed Brian?'
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 02:18:35 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: That will make him a
Message:
BB look alike.
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 11:45:01 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: Nigel
Subject: Exactly
Message:
I cann't tell if this is 'The Brian' that is posting here or only a brian. I want to have a go, but I am worried that I may get banned, sheesh.

Are you in Australia yet, e-mail me, 'I May Consider Meeting You', A not so amuzed person.

Salam

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 18:55:17 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Salam
Subject: Australia (ot)
Message:
Hi Salam,

Yes, I'm in Sydney and have been here for a week now (fantastic country, BTW). We're going up to the rainforest for the rest of this week so I won't be available for meet-ups with exes I haven't met yet until after that. I'm probably here until the new year so we'll try and organise something while I'm over.

BTW, 'brian' is definitely not 'Brian', so the sooner this cult-apologist changes his name, the less confusion there'll be all round.

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 01:31:09 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Australia (ot)
Message:
Well let me know when you are back from the rainforest. Make sure you do not get eaten by a croc, get lost forever, bitten by a green snake, catch malaria or few other nasty things, and as they say, have a good day.
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:33:54 (GMT)
From: bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: Nigel
Subject: Australia (ot)
Message:
Hey Nigel

Say hello to my brother - he lives in the rainforest north of Sydney. Bit of a wildman. He's a photographer. Actually he was hired by DLM back in the early 70's, before I heard about m., to take photos at a festival. He was roughed up by WPC Brownshirts when he tried to go backstage and they never paid his invoices. He might even still have the negs, though its a long time ago. He was really pissed off when I got into it, but he's happy now!

cheers

bazza

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 16:34:10 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: brown nose brian.
Subject: You're clueless, pal
Message:
You're just trying out a bunch of the old saws we hear all the time:

We're all negative and never see the fine, good points of having been in an insidious personality cult.

We've thrown the baby out with the bathwater (heard that about a million times now.)

Meditation is good and you should appreciate and be thankful to Fatboy for teaching you these old bog standard, find'em anywhere meditation techiques.

Rawat never said he was god. I didn't hear him say that, did you hear him say that? He didn't say that, the premies did. (This is a blatant lie and you brian, are a liar.)

There's no reason to debate this because no one's opinion will be changed and even if they are changed, the world is still fucked up so there's no use in trying. (Now this is really subtle and especially sneaky.)

We need to 'come to completion on this issue and 'heal.' (This is another attempt at turning people away from this forum--a forum which exposes his beloved master for the fraud he is.)

And lastly but not least: the most obnoxious and meant to be hurtful statement of all, the nefarious 'It's all the PREMIES fault.' Any of the problems that I have ever personally experienced in this movement came from my association with fanatical devotees.

You're just another cult apologist. Fuck off with your lies and attempts to salvage your evil master's forever soil name. You've got his shit all over your nose, brown nose brian...

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:35:18 (GMT)
From: brian2
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: You're clueless, pal
Message:
Poor Gerry, you are a profane and abusive tyrant, you take the cake Pal, you can dish it out but you can't take it. If there was ever a reason for me to shift my views about my experience your lack of intolerance has made me reconsider my doubts. If the alternative is to turn into a petty, nitpicking, abusive, profane, jerk like you, I do not want what you have. Your attitude is actually an argrument in favor for me go back to the practice of knowledge with a newfound zeal. And believe me buddy I have been wavering on this issue for some time. So thanks for cluing me in. You just made a score for the other side.
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 23:40:52 (GMT)
From: bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: brian2
Subject: Welcome to the mosh pit
Message:
Well that's what I've dubbed this place!

Brian, If you've really only been reading (we call it lurking) here for a week you may have missed my own Declaration of Independence (from m.) a few weeks back, maybe a month now. I hung around and read for about a year without posting, and then posted only when I was 99% sure I was about to renounce premiedom.

The point is, this really isnt the place to lay out your decision-making process for all to see, not with something as fundamental and personal as your connection with maharaji,especially if thats been a long one.

If you can be swayed back to practising knowledge by something as trivial as taking a dislike to gerry's comments, then it seems that perhaps you havent really got to the bottom of your own feelings yet.

For me it hinged on who I had perceived maharaji to be for the past 23 years,and how much that view had been constantly reinforced by other premies and m. himself, until the fairly recent PR about-face, when I was asked to believe I dreamt it all, or something. The experience of knowledge was a secondary and less important issue for me. I knew I could continue to prod my facial extremities if I liked, without his 'guidance'.

I began to feel a distance from other prmeies over a year ago, and the more I read things on enjoyinglife, the more I witnessed the abject devotion and adoration present at events, the more I came to realize I wasnt being true to myself by being there. It culminated in me writing an email to maharaji, which you can find in the archives, posted as A Wavering Premie - Closure

I made the conscious decison to use my real name - believe me I had trepidations about doing so, but when I analysed my reluctance to that it all centered on fear - of rejection and animosity from premies that knew me. That in itself highlighted the fact that I wasnt being 'real' with myself or others. I felt such a wave of empowerment and freedom when I finally overcame that and told maharaji and the rest of his flock where I was at and what I thought.

By the way, he never did reply to my letter, which in itself speaks volumes. What use is a 'teacher' who doesnt give a crap about losing one of his students, and cant be bothered making even the remotest effort to talk to him about it?

So this is longer than I intebded to write, sorry to bore you. But you can email me if you like, I will respect your privacy and confidences, so long as you are real and honest about it, sounds like you are at a point I was at not too long ago. Helps to talk about it.

Barry Shaw

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 00:43:59 (GMT)
From: brian too
Email: None
To: bazza
Subject: Welcome to the mosh pit
Message:
Very nice post bazza, Thank you for your clarity. You are right about gerry, and I owe gerry an apology for alluding to the possibility that he is responsible for my decisions. He isn't, and I was wrong to project that. And I really do not need to display my decision making process out here at this time. The truth is I would rather spend an hour in meditation than an hour surfing this site.
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 02:33:09 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: brian too
Subject: Good on you mate
Message:
No one is stepping on your tail and asking you to be here. but the facts are. If you try giving satsang here, you're in trouble.

If you have doubts, then I suggest you try to answer them yourself, if you can not then at least know they exist.

Some of us are boofheads, we want to stay that way becuase we too do not need to be preached to. If your master is true to you, fine, go kiss his ass if you feel like it. But I do think that it is possible to be civilised and talk about it. Remember, all exes were premies too. We do not have an organisation nor meeting, we come and go as we please. If anyone expect me to conform then they know what is coming their way. Zo all in all, be nice and let us play. We had enough of m and no-knwoledge and we are entitled to it.

Now you be a good boy and run along. And do not forget your blanki.

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 03:18:42 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: On second thought
Message:
This is not a kintergarden. Why do you premies come here asking for help. The forum is only part of this site, have you tried reading some of the other stuff that is on here?
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 07:08:34 (GMT)
From: Brian too
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: On second thought
Message:
That was not my intention, and yes I have spent time looking at the other stuff out here, as a matter of fact I found your entry in the Journeys segment to be compelling. You are very courageous, and I thank your for sharing so much of yourself there
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 08:06:42 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Brian too
Subject: Hey watch it mate
Message:
I am all red now. Do not you start that with me.

Now where is that white paint that I had?

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 21:04:39 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: brian2
Subject: 'Lack of intolerance' you say??? Huh????????
Message:
brian, I don't know how long you've been reading this forum, but if your impression of Gerry is based on the persona he's shown in the past, well, I've got news for you, pal. You're only seeing the side of him that he's shown in the past. We all change, right?

For an alternative view of the real man, and how he's changing, get a slice of what he said in response to a very anti-Maha post from TiM (speaking of the Maha's supposed ability to 'snuff someone out from long distance', only last Friday, right here:

Gerry's post to TiM:


Exiting this cult after so many years is difficult. And meditation can provide what seems to
be unexplainable experiences, and indeed some of the experiences are extraordinary.

What I see in your writings is someone who is very upset at the whole thing and needs to
talk about it with a professional. A lot of us here have had similiar difficulties adjusting and
many have found that a good therapist with a sympathetic ear can do wonders. Also,
sometimes brain chemistry can get out of whack and there are remedies available for that,
too.

Please keep in mind that we support you in your effort to sort this whole thing out but we
are not professionals and even if we were, there is not much we can do over the internet.
You need some real, live assistance and we can't do that for you.

Also, though your anger and fear is very understandable (we've all been there) this talk of
doing violence to Rawat is inappropriate and might even get you and the site into legal
difficulties. You have enough on your plate without that.

Best of luck to you and feel free to express your (nonviolent) feelings here as you see fit.


'Lack of intolerance' you said, brian2,
.
.
.
.
but what you meant was ...
.
.
.

... over 2U

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:54:09 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: brian the brainwashed
Subject: Transparent manipulator, you are
Message:
Oh, mean old ex-premie dared to bark at me and now I'm taking my ball and going home to the cult... blah blah, blah, junior. We've heard that line a million times before, also. Can't you come up with a single original statement?

Go ahead, scurry back to your little rathole cult. You can blame it on me all you want. You're just a cult apologist. Look how you bare your fangs when unmasked. Not a pretty picture. You better get back under your blankie, premieji.

At least I'm not a thinly veneered phony like you just demonstrated revealed yourself to be...

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 00:56:57 (GMT)
From: brian too
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Transparent manipulator, you are
Message:
I apologize gerry, you are right, I wasn't being totally authentic. I was just tring to lock horns with you , rattle a saber , You are not responsible for any decision that I make here or anywhere else. There are some really fine people out here working on very real issues. I wish you well, and bear no ill will towards you or anyone else here.
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 16:49:17 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: thank you. I feel much better now
Message:
good night.
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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:36:03 (GMT)
From: emile
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: thank you. I feel much better now
Message:
the funny part is most of the negativity that is found here is from mostly those ass-hole i mean ashram premies from the old days, you know the ones who criticized everybody who wasn't as devoted as they were, now they are still trying to spread confusion by spreading untruths or half- truths about a guy who has only been a positve influence in hundreds of thousands of lives.
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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 14:39:26 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: emile
Subject: thank you. I feel much better now
Message:
Are you Emile of Montreal? If so, you were a friend and I'm disappointed in your writing.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 13:55:26 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: emile
Subject: Emile's lies
Message:
EMILE: the funny part is most of the negativity that is found here is from mostly those ass-hole i mean ashram premies from the old days, you know the ones who criticized everybody who wasn't as devoted as they were,

Why do you say that, Emile? OK, It's what you think, but do you have any evidence for the claim? If you cannot give evidence for the claim then please consider it may be merely a prejudice of your own...

Stick around, and you will discover that some long-time PAMs and ashram premies are very mild; and some short-term premies (or even never premies at all) are very fierce.

Your simplistic formula betrays a shallow prejudice, and sheds no light on why people have varying reactions to the appalling Mr Rawat and his heartless lies.

EMILE: now they are still trying to spread confusion by spreading untruths or half- truths about a guy who has only been a positve influence in hundreds of thousands of lives.

Who is saying which lies? Tell us the lies and tell us where they are or be seen as merely parading ignorant prejudice and doing exactly what you accuse others of doing.

Hundreds of thousands eh? Evidence?

EVIDENCE, Emile. We've got the evidence that Rawat is a nasty little man, a fraud, a liar and a coward. Read the site and deal with the evidence, Emile. Don't come here just to parade your ignorance and prejudice.

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 02:40:29 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: emile
Subject: All I can say is
Message:
FUCK OFF you dead brain. And what are. God on this planet. Are you a realized soul. After all these years of love and peace that your guru preaches, that is all you can come up with. Remember the failed expereiment, well you can stick it up your nose you moron.

Salam never been an ashram premie.

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 21:05:17 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: emile
Subject: Ah yes, another slap at the ashram premies
Message:
Ho hum...snore...what's this??? A FUNNY LINE !!!

...a guy who has only been a positve influence in hundreds of thousands of lives.

Ho ho ho this is hilarious. Yes, our humble little Perfect Master, Lord of the Universe has brought choy and permomint peace to tousands and tousands. A real MacDonalds of Realization he is.

Yer braindead, pal.

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