Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Jan 09, 2001 at 22:39:49 (GMT)
From: Dec 20, 2000 To: Jan 09, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


Jean-Michel -:- Best of Forum page just updated -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:39:40 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Formidable Jean-=Michel -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 13:45:45 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- You're a gem Jean-Michel -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:30:14 (GMT)
__ Curious George -:- Best of Forum page just updated -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 06:48:38 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- There are more interesting posts -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:12:17 (GMT)

shp -:- My Response to You, Turner, from below thread -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:32:26 (GMT)
__ Turner -:- My Response to You shp -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:10:11 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Why post at all? -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 04:19:19 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Turner's filthy stinking thinking -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 12:54:57 (GMT)
__ __ ham -:- definitely Pauline Premies fella -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 22:44:38 (GMT)
__ __ Swami Suchabanana -:- apples/oranges: Never give mind to Greedy guru (nt -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:05:44 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- What a freaking cop-out, Turner! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:36:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Turner -:- What a freaking cop-out, Turner! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:09:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ shp -:- What a freaking cop-out, Turner! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:52:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Come on, Turner, you can smell the curry on her -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:03:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Turner, speak the truth and fear no man. -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:09:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Turner -:- Yes my son. -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 22:56:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- I am not your son, I am your brother. Big diff. -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 05:51:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- PS to Turner...and this is a dialog, not a debate -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 16:27:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Frank -:- I am your brother -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 08:40:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Frank /Thelma -:- Yes my son. -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 02:10:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Yes my son. -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 23:18:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Turner -:- Come on, shp... -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:02:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Excuses, excuses, excuses -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:20:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- And if your daughter was still seeing a shrink -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:33:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Turner you are sidestepping shps point -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:24:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- But what about Jagdeo's Boss????? -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:18:28 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Oh no! The Black Spot! (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:20:32 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You're a ground-zero cult member as per EV, Turner -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 18:35:15 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- Hey Hey Hey! Take it easy, Jim! I'm waiting for -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:12:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Sandy - your best post ever! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:27:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ shp -:- I was like Turner... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:17:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Regarding Stephen Gaskin -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:19:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Regarding Stephen Gaskin -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 22:47:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Regarding Stephen Gaskin -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 22:36:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- It's scary but imagine..... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:51:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Ignorance would have been bliss (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:03:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Better yet...continued from my last post... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:24:52 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Turner is a true premie -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:49:16 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Way to go, Way..Don't miss Way's post above! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:00:08 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Shp,you ready to quit the day job?U can write!nt -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:23:52 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- Gotta have a day job before I can quit one! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:35:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Classic Turner for your edification... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:18:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tim G -:- ignorant and confused? -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:57:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- ignorant and confused , that's me all right! -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:02:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tim G -:- ignorant and confused , that's me all right! -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 11:59:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Looking after Marianne..? -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 05:15:41 (GMT)

johnny payback -:- plans for oxnard-jan. 14th -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:25:07 (GMT)
__ shp -:- Loved Uri's verses -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 16:13:56 (GMT)

jondon -:- Happy New Year -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 05:38:12 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- well don't get too carried away with those signs -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 06:04:31 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Signs, signs, everywhere signs.... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:27:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Cynthia-shirts,shirts,everwhere T shirts... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:46:15 (GMT)

shp -:- Hello Dalai! -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:00:35 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Hello shp -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:18:22 (GMT)
__ Oliver -:- I Spam, therefore I am! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 13:04:37 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- It's just that dumb Dolly Llama chain letter! (nt -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:49:08 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Not the Dalai Lama -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:28:19 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- No, Way, it DOES work!! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 05:42:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- HOLD ON, Jim,I'm not so sure about that.... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:31:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- But there's a secret ingredient: a child's heart -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:37:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Hey Salam ... Jim's a BABE!!! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:27:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Hey Salam ... Jim's a BABE!!! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:27:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Oh Great Jim, thanks...NOW you tell me!..nt -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:47:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ It definitely works. -:- Re: No, Way, it DOES work!! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:15:18 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- No 9 -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:16:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Oliver -:- No 9, No 9, No 9, No 9, No 9, No 9,............... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 13:20:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- No 9 -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 00:45:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Now I DO feel a bit sheepish...sheesh! -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:27:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Baaaaing up the wrong tree. -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 09:23:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Fine here -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 11:43:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Bollocks.... -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:50:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Bollocks.... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 13:20:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Bollocks.... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 00:52:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Bollocks = Testicles.... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 07:06:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Yeah but jhb, bollox is also garbage, bullshit, -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 12:33:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Also 'the dog's bollox' for excellent (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:35:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Cut it out u2 -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 14:58:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- It's all about context Salam -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:38:52 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- So Not the Dalai Lama -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:55:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ C.g. -:- So Not the Dalai Lama -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 05:15:57 (GMT)

JHB -:- Maharaji's Watch Patent -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 18:31:30 (GMT)
__ GIFted X -:- Forget 'SWATCH' -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 03:30:29 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Maharaji's Watch Patent -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 02:21:34 (GMT)
__ __ Watcher -:- Rives McDow designed it! (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 03:13:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ jondon -:- Rives McDow designed it! (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 13:46:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ jondon -:- Contact Rives McDow -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:53:17 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- What a worthless piece of shit... -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:02:05 (GMT)
__ __ bill-he patented it on -:- the old man's 100th birthday-nt -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:02:26 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- What a worthless piece of shit...Maharaji is!!! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 02:09:02 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- For the pilot with watch fetish who has it all!(nt -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:44:30 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Mock Not. World Peace is on the Way -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:51:38 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- Good link gerry - worth a look everyone -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:50:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Good link gerry - worth a look everyone -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:26:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Rives McDow was my housefather -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:49:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- I had a bit of bover with it too -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:19:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- OK here's how to see the images -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:47:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Thanks! Available Soon at the next program -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 02:04:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- I'M impressed.--he might just earn a living -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 05:22:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- and he should give the money back to the premies -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 16:21:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Re: I'M impressed.--he might just earn a living -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:02:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I'M impressed.--he might just earn a living..BUT -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 14:54:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- real life marketing vs our notions -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 12:21:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yes, but have you been to the Trinket Hall? -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 06:00:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- of course i have, babe.-- -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 06:40:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Happy Year 2001,Janet! Peace,Light,+joy to you (nt -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 08:28:48 (GMT)

Thelma -:- LA event Jan 14th -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 03:44:41 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- I am so thrilled -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:57:03 (GMT)
__ __ a sister -:- Hilarious!! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 07:10:13 (GMT)
__ __ Thelma -:- You are priceless, darling -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 04:35:54 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Someone should collect you too -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 04:04:03 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Pauline, I need to tell you something -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 02:27:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ sam -:- Pauline, I need to tell you something -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 07:48:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ij -:- Pauline, I need to tell you something -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 18:56:46 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- I'll be there!!! -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:47:14 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You'd think there be a few hecklers these days -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 06:19:16 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- You'd think there be a few hecklers these days -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:10:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Sounds like ....sounds like .....a smurf protest? -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 05:21:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Anth, I think I'd pay money to see this -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 02:55:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Oliver -:- Re: You'd think there be a few hecklers these days -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:51:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- Wicked Anth -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:22:35 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanon'em -:- ergo:Smart Cards. Security! Mach Schnell! (nt -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:50:04 (GMT)
__ __ Robin Hood -:- how about a prize for first one to pirate auto-K? -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 16:52:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- pirate auto-K? Don't do it.! -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:38:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Little John -:- No need to take the risk -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:06:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Techniques. Jean-Michel m'aides stp. -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:54:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Here's the link to the Latvian K Review -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 08:18:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- The Key to the 4th Technique!!! -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 05:43:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ suchaboneanna -:- Event Schedule points2:Prophecy of SuchaBanana!(nt -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 08:59:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I'll be watching the sky for signs! (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 20:22:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sucha -:- U want a Sign? J-M's post[see event schedule] (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 21:33:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Ordered bison grass vodka-still no prophecy! (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 23:02:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Suchabanana -:- So, u guys R really bananas, too! (nt -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:51:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robin Hood -:- I like your style, Little John... -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:28:37 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- Re: You'd think there be a few hecklers these days -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 11:43:34 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- Sounds like the Rockwell painting of free speech -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 09:08:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Why, THANKS, shp. That was so NICE!! -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 16:41:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ shp -:- Custom role playing costs extra, pal -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:20:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- a compliment for shippie -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 03:10:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Hi Helen -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 13:42:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Hi Helen -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:22:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Yeah, Sandy's a joy to read nowadays... -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 05:24:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- maverick premies -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:56:49 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- What did you say to the raja?..nt -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 08:29:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- I asked him for Claudia's phone number -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:23:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I asked him for Claudia's phone number -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:18:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Rajaji -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 16:29:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- You're not an ice crunching goat after all. -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 00:11:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Breaking Into A Million Pieces -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:35:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- The Hidden Bomb -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:03:45 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- LA and/or Oxnard? -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 04:06:26 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- LA and/or Oxnard? OT -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 13:34:14 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Details -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 04:00:53 (GMT)
__ Thelma -:- PS -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 03:47:37 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Auto Knowledge - I always knew Lard was -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 04:23:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- notice the materials-esp websites to go to... -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 06:33:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ shp -:- I just printed out the Dalai Lama's quote from -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 16:44:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Abbie Hoffman(spirit of) -:- janet-good idea,PLUS a few others... -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 16:31:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ old 60's guerilla -:- wont get fooled again..street theatre anyone? -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 06:22:04 (GMT)

Maurice -:- Whaaaa? -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 02:34:46 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Never forget the net is global -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 03:22:03 (GMT)
__ __ Maurice -:- Murder.com -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:30:16 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- LATVIA?? -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 04:12:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- LATVIA and ZELTA -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:38:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- LATVIA and ZELTA -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:57:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- The Latvian Club -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 09:36:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Don't remind me! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 13:44:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- The Latvian Ambassador -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 03:55:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- The Latvian Ambassador -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 09:32:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- The Dancing Latvian Ambassador -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 19:57:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Maurice -:- The Ambassador of Evian. -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:29:54 (GMT)

Maurice -:- Fund Raisin' for Domino. -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 01:42:24 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Great idea Maurice, think you should e-mail -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:08:53 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Great idea Maurice, think you should e-mail -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 03:01:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- But I bet ya in rawat's imagination -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 13:42:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- But I bet ya in rawat's imagination (ot) -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:55:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham it up -:- From Mr Smug Bastard verging on Mr Put It Away -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:45:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor- not Balls of Rock -:- From Ms Hot to Trot verging on Giving Up the Hunt. -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 03:49:22 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- You mean pictures like these -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:16:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Maurice -:- Love those sexy shots of Maharaji -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:42:09 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Great idea Maurice...ot -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:04:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- Yep, just the same one -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 18:03:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- nt/ot=up the tee -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:52:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Ya lost me there salam -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 13:28:39 (GMT)

Jim -:- Yes, fine, Janice, but what's that on your face? -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 23:42:42 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Janice lifted that from American Beauty -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 02:29:17 (GMT)
__ suchabonhomme -:- Quelle affaire!She'can't think or talk or walk'(nt -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:57:20 (GMT)
__ Proctor and Gamble -:- Janice has stolen our copyright -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:48:29 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Douche (pronounced douche-ey) nt -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:51:44 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- That woman should spnd some tme wrking retail(nt) -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 04:12:37 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Did you ever think Janice might be neurotic, Jim? -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 03:41:25 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- No, she's just a premie trying to impress -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 06:07:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Jim-I like your ELK Droppings-could be good title. -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:03:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- I hope you're right -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 12:25:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, look -- Maharaji puts them up to it! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:25:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Jim, you're mad - completely mad! ***BEST*** -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 03:04:23 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Sounds like a tampon advert -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 03:14:56 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Sounds like a tampon advert (lol) -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 02:53:53 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- LOL baz-you'd know, you're in video!!!ha ha ha ha -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 06:42:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Oliver -:- But are jokes about tampons PC? (NT) ;) -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 13:50:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- If PC = Pretty Crude, then yes!! nt -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 16:59:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Re: If PC = Pretty Crude, then yes!! -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:31:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Favourite beer /OT -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:33:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ suchabeernanda -:- 1McEwan's Scottish Ale,2Full Sail Amber Ale (ot(nt -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:40:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Favourite beer /OT -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 00:04:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Favourite beer /OT -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:49:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Aahhh, a mature palate. (OT) nt -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:06:35 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- I'm Glad To See She's Feeling Better nt -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 02:20:58 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Janice can't think, talk or walk? I smell cult -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 01:13:45 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Vegetables Need Bliss Too -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 02:42:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Bliss -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 08:49:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- Bliss: Well, shp, what about 'that' feeling -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 13:45:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- 'That' feeling should = This feeling here now -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:00:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- 'That' feeling should =no -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:46:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- 'That' feeling should =no -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 16:04:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Good for you (nt) -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 16:12:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Bliss is the consiousness of a vegetable...nt -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 13:44:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Bliss is the consiousness of an ant too,......... -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:00:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- High cloud -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 03:41:46 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Maybe someone should call Janice to see if she's -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 00:28:36 (GMT)
__ __ NY fly on the wall -:- she's not blonde,she's brunette and she's... -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 01:31:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- No wonder she spends so much time... -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 01:59:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Janice Wilson photo appears at ELK... -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 20:03:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ shp -:- I checked her site out and more... -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:22:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Sandy, this is powerful stuff... -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:49:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Nothing a dye job couldn't fix.......:)) nt -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:15:37 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- 'In me' will take on a whole new meaning...(nt) -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 00:46:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Eeeeuuuuuwwww LOL ,,,,,(nt) -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 00:55:22 (GMT)
__ shp -:- Janice, in you are also the daisies.... -:- Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 23:59:50 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- He can't think or walk or talk either... (nt) -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 00:03:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- yeah dead people are like that -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 06:49:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- close ... and have a cigar -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 20:25:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Re: yeah dead people are like that...... -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:05:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rabbi Gutnick -:- Who Shp?Love interest? Compatible? -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 01:53:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janET, not janICE -:- oy gevult..you meshugge! you should know from! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 07:33:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ shp -:- What the world is coming to... -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 08:33:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rabbi Gutnick -:- My Got , boy , SHE is perfect for you!! -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 11:32:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- Whoever ordered the comic relief, keep looking. -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 13:52:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- My Got , boy , SHE is perfect for you!! -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 11:35:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shp -:- You can have whoever he has lined up for me, Steve -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:11:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- I Got Them, Thanks nt -:- Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 15:55:17 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:39:40 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Best of Forum page just updated
Message:
Best of the forum threads

With lots of stuff from the past 2 months, including Mike Dettmers most interesting contributions to exprem ...

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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 13:45:45 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Formidable Jean-=Michel
Message:
Bravo,

Brilliant work mon vieux.

I feel the pressure for a European Latvian night brewing. Au Pays-Bas peut-etre? (C'est n'est pas cher sur Easyjet d'Angleterre mes Amis.)

And one of our lawyers will be over soon- in fact maybe she's already here.

We'll talk soon.

Anth the Eurobum

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:30:14 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You're a gem Jean-Michel
Message:
In terms of info, think you've provided so much relevant stuff over time, REALLY useful, as well as all the collating work you do.

Just wanted to say thanks and much appreciated.

Like george I found the kk stuff really interesting.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 06:48:38 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Best of Forum page just updated
Message:
Thanks J.M.

See my post above.

C.G.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:12:17 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: There are more interesting posts
Message:
from KK. I should go and dig them out ...
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:32:26 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My Response to You, Turner, from below thread
Message:
Turner,

My comments are carrotted and brought to the top since this is about to roll over to inactive. I look forward to your responses.

1) This is not a death squad over here.

Nobody said it was. The example was about how far you go before breaking down your defenses. You have reached that breaking point and embraced your doubts.

>Why would I need defenses in the first place? Knowledge needs no defense, Maharaji needs no defense, and neither do I if I am in his good graces, which I thought I was, from his own words.
I have not embraced my doubts. I have received information about my teacher that makes me wonder about him and stand back and question. And if he is truly with his devotees in their darkest hour, then he must be with me and everyone on this site very
closely, for to not recognize one's true teacher and to imagine that he is not real must be one of the darkest hours a premie can experience.

2) I am not a hapless victim.

You hope.

>And so do you.

3) Not a breaking point, but the truth has been the goal.

Truth in what regard? Whether something is black or white, or the essence of existence.

>You mix apples and oranges, and we are not making fruit salad.

4) Who says 'once a master always a master'...you?

Yeah I said it, but I’m sure it’s been said before. Such truths have a way of repeating themselves.

>Then it would follow 'once a devotee, always a devotee', and Maharaji is still responsible for those who are not happy. If a teacher has a room full of students and some are cruising along doing fine and others are having some really bad problems
getting the lesson, and the teacher is favoring some of the female students and letting them sit up front and all that, and he is fraternizing with some of them besides, which students is that good teacher going to spend some time with? And how much effort will a good teacher spend to bring clarity to those students who are stuck? (If that is truly the case.)

5) You want me to disbelieve others and buy into your thing.

No, I don’t want you to disbelieve anything that is fact. I question the conclusions you and others draw.

>Even though I can understand the place you are in, because I was there too, I have a real problem with shoving all Maharaji's strange actions under the rug anymore and giving him carte blanche with my life, my money, and any attractive female blond premie friends or relatives. I have no malice against him.
I just cannot rationalize it all away at this point. If he is truly a master, then he will understand where I and all the other folks are at here, and continue to pour out his love and grace to all of us, and give us a way to see this whole thing clearly. But you know what? I just got here to this site a few years ago, and I empathize with these folks. They are not all evil fallen angels at war with the Lord or some such bullshit. There are many here who have been hurt directly and they have received not a word of comfort or healing. Is that because of the corrupt media that will blow it up and make him look bad? So if he can avoid the Mexicans and the media, he can pretty much do whatever the hell he wants and always have an excuse for not copping to his own actions. Sweet.

6) I don't hate anybody, but I hate the way some people are.

Not today perhaps. Neither did Dettmers once upon a time. Good luck!

>Sounds like you and Michael have some shit to work out.

7) Tell me, if you would, how you feel about:
a) the procurement of women premies by Maharaji via Michael Dettmers for personal pleasure, despite the fact that he is a father, a husband, and a master, the embodiment of truth?

Couldn’t care less. I’m not going to project morals based on societal customs on anyone. If I was in an Eskimo village and I turned down an offer to sleep with a man’s wife, it would be a slap in the face to him. Customs are different all around the world…which one you going to use to judge him by?

>I do not judge him at all. You misunderstand. If I was a traditional Eskimo and he was visiting my home, I would do my custom and it would be cool. But I am not a traditional Eskimo,
and I don't think any Eskimos were involved in any of his trysts. Furthermore, I don't think Eskimos do that too much anymore. I think that custom slowed down with the advent of HVAC. As for which set of customs one is to be judged by, in all other ways such as eating, driving, manners, and all the other social customs, I believe it's common and proper to do the 'when in Rome, do as the Romans...' But wait! There's more. Maharaji's
papers said he's a spiritual teacher. I saw them. Do you think it's appropriate for a person who has told the world he's a spiritual teacher to mess around? I don't. If he said he was a freethinking master who has no set of rules and does as he
pleases without consequence, then I would give him credit for telling the truth, and we'd all have known what we were getting ourselves into.

b) the Chinese fire drill at the scene of the vehicular manslaughter in India

What would it have achieved for him to stick around to be spanked by the Indian bureaucracy? It was involuntary manslaughter. The man was dead. There was no malice intended. Really, looking at it objectively, what value would it have added to the situation?
Yes it would have satisfied society’s need to dole out punishment
but tell me Sandy, do you really think society does a good job of matching its laws to the punishment it administers? At that point the only productive thing that could be done was compensate the family, which he did handsomely by Indian standards.

>It would have achieved my deeper trust in him, that he takes responsibility for his actions, just as he tells us to do. It would have set an example for his premies and anyone looking that a man of God deals with what he creates and no amount of money can replace that integrity. So what if the Indian government created some red tape to cut through. It still would have been cleaner to go through that than to just throw money at the situation, which is the way of the world. Is throwing money at one's bloopers the way of heaven too as you see it?

c) the untethered Jagdeo skipping the continents and messing with premie kids under Maharaji's nose

I don’t have a clue, nor do you, whether there was a tether or not. But one thing that is a sacred convent between a master and devotee, which Maharaji has said many times, “In your time of trouble, I will not abandon you”. So, in this case you expected him to do just that? Have you ever made a bad mistake Sandy?

>If there was a tether, it obviously was not short enough.
As for the sacred convenant, I claim the same protection that you say Jagdeo deserves, and therefore I have no worries about my present state of thinking. I am being sincere and damn serious here, not playing with the energy. This ain't a game. I never said that Maharaji should abandon Jagdeo, but he could have stopped him without abandoning him. And what about the kids?
What about the 'not a sparrow falls..' What about the 'If a father sees his child go near a flame, he will not let him burn',
what about that side of the story? Take you attention off Jagdeo for a minute and look at the premie kids. Whether Maharaji knew it or not, (and the reports say he was aware of the problem early on), Jagdeo showed up at premies communities like a wolf in sheep's clothing over and over. You say you have kids. Go on, imagine it was one of your kids, you found out, called and wrote Maharaji and got no response. Would you still be as zen about it as you are now? Of course I have been in trouble. What's your point?

d) explain to me if this is the behavior of a master to you, and

What the heck do I know what the proper behavior of a Master is? How many have you met? A Master's behavior is never the criteria for recognizing him, and it is always the reason why people don’t.

>Catchy, but no cigar. Once again, imagine your own kid, your own flesh and blood, messed with by Jagdeo and you find out and get no communication from the powers that be. You are just supposed to live with it, hey it's a lila, hey you don't question anything, you hear? You are just a premie, you have no rights, you gave them up when you handed over the reins of your life.
Now shut up and giddiyap! Come on, Turner, I need you to be real with me here.

e) how premies can seek and obtain a redress of grievances to a listening and truly open and caring ear attached to the head and heart of their master (and not just spin/damage control) with regard to the following:

'I recommend never adopting the attitude toward one's spiritual teacher of seeing his or her every action as divine or noble. This may seem a little bit bold, but if one has a teacher who is not qualified, who is engaging in unsuitable or wrong behavior, then it is appropriate for the student to criticize that behavior.' - Dalai Lama

So now are you a devotee of the Dalai Lama? Go ahead, ask him to give you peace.

>Now is not the time to get smart-assed. Maharaji quotes alot of wise people, sets it all to music, with slides of flowers and waterfalls and shows them to us in darkened halls all over the world. (While he's arranging to meet with a particularly sweet premie after the program). Does that mean he is now the student of everyone he has quoted and he has renounced Shri Hans? Give me a break. The truth is the truth, no matter who said it. Like he himself said, Turner, don't just pay attention to that little guy up on the stage.

f) 'careful of ending up like the others'...right out of the Peer Group Pressure 101 text. As if premies are all that and ex-premies are Dr. Moreau's mistakes. I can think of some premies I'd rather not end up like too, so you may shitcan the comparison contrast, OK?

You lost me.

>You warned me against 'ending up like the others', as if all the ex-premies are in a one-size-fits-all bag and they are the 'others', like a leper colony. Check your own words in your first post to me.

g) 'Better to eat a crust of bread with those we love alive
than to drink the blood of a rich feast spread and guiltily survive.'

OK find the people you want to eat with and enjoy your meal. But remember, if you end up feasting on criticism and vitriol you’ll get heart-burn.

>I am not happy about this whole turn of events, but we all have to be true to ourselves. And if you feast on what you are feasting on, you might be surprised yourself someday. In truth, it is not criticism and vitriol I plan to be feasting on. Rather, I have been picking out the sharp bones and other indigestible things that were on the plate I was given as a premie, and look forward to a much more palatable fare.

h) It's not a question of needing a master or not. Don't even try to avoid this issue if you are talking to me. It's a question of what kind of shit is this person into who convinced me he was a master in the first place? And how dos it make you feel? Tell me how he answered you when you got quiet, go on.

It is the question Sandy! If you don’t need one you won’t have one…one way or another. He answers me every time I listen to him and every time I connect via Knowledge within. And if he “convinced” you he was a master, you don’t have a hope in hell of sticking with him.

>How esoteric. There is a certain amount of knowing inside and there is a certain amount of convincing by the master...by his fruits you shall know...the fruits are the convincing.

i) As for 'standing up for my heart', GW Bush has said something to that effect too, that he wants to do what's good for me and America...that he wants to stand up for love in the home as the cornerstone of our society....so is he a master too, because he stood up for love in a speech?

Sure but does GW stand up for your heart Sandy? That is a joke! GW’s an idiot, but that’s another discussion. Look I’m not here to convince you that Maharaji does or doesn’t. If he doesn’t, fine…move on.

>'Move on', you say, like a cop to a bum sleeping on a bench in the park. You have not squarely addressed my questions, so I should move on. I spoil your view of perfection by what I say to you? Is perfection that vulnerable? What if I don't want to move on? What if I want some clarity about the last 22 years and just what the hell has really been going on? He has encouraged me to not worry or spend much time on a job, my kids, my wife, my parents, brothers, sisters, future....while he has been amassing a fortune with seed money that was scraped together by premies who where living like nomads, sleeping on floors, following him around the planet like moths follow a flame. And all you can say to me is move on?

j) You have kids? How would you explain it to them? Or newcomers who are interested, but have heard about his escapades?

Yes I do but not old enough to understand. I will tell her that Maharaji satisfies my heart, period. If she has a need for such a thing, she will understand. If not, we’ll talk about something else. If my experience is real, don't you think my words will
stand on their own to those who have ears to hear?

>Sounds great, but once again I would ask you to think about your daughter on Jagdeo's lap alone in a dark room because you trusted him by association with Maharaji, and get back to me. It could have been her, and you need to see that and tell me how it would
have made you feel and what you think your relationship with Maharaji would be like if that had happened. After you have done that soul search, please tell me what advice you offer to Susan, Abi, and anyone who empathizes with them to the point of backing away from Maharaji in support of them.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:10:11 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: My Response to You shp
Message:
Hey Sandy. I started this response and then read some of your comments further down in the thread, which left me wondering if you warranted any more of my time. It’s fruitless to venture into a point-counterpoint endless thread with you. Furthermore it is fruitless arguing for the sympathies of public opinion on the topic of Truth…the public never has and never will understand. Doubt has brought you to a point where the only thing that will satisfy you is commiseration with your doubts, and you can certainly not hear anything I may have to say. Your reply to me is no more than a justification of you having let doubt have the better of you. I have addressed your questions as requested from you’re your previous post as best I could. Where you go in your life is of course up to you. I can only say if you really want clarity, listen to your Master, but let your heart listen not your doubts. If you cannot do that…well…keep looking for the Truth Sandy (that’s the Apple, not the oranges), and have a good life.

Turner

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 04:19:19 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Why post at all?
Message:
Clearly, either words are inadequate for expressing what you want to say Turner, or you have an inadequate grasp of the language for expressing yourself.

Either way, your 'I know best but the public don't or won't understand stance' does your guru no favours and makes you sound foolish. I mean imagine a Moonie voicing the following to an ex-Moonie:

Doubt has brought you to a point where the only thing that will satisfy you is commiseration with your doubts, and you can certainly not hear anything I may have to say.

The problem is, you don't appear to be saying anything - unless you live in a cult where doubts are forbidden. SHP is certainly not deaf, and has shown a good deal more honesty and integrity than we've seen from your direction.

Anyway, if M is God, then SHP's wavering is not your problem. It's all a lila, right? His truth will prevail etc.

Trust your doubts - they may yet get you out.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 12:54:57 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Turner's filthy stinking thinking
Message:
Turner: if you really want clarity, listen to your Master, but let your heart listen not your doubts. If you cannot do that…well…keep looking for the Truth

If we were not talking of real people, Turner's turns would be comic. The delusion and stinking thinking is THAT transparent.

Get this: if you want clarity, listen to your chosen Authority (however corrupt). Don't ever think for yourself.

Thanks for the advice Turner. Very funny indeed. You find the Truth (I loved the capitalisation) by blind faith.

Actually, the way to achieve clarity about some event or process is to ask questions and find things out until it's clear what is really going down. It is a real world, after all, not just a dream. Other people share that world and can help us understand...

Listen Turner, here's an idea. Just for today, try using your own senses and reason instead. Hey, if it's TOO uncomfortable you can always go back to blind faith.

WAKE UP! Turner. Lots of other people have. You can too.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 22:44:38 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: definitely Pauline Premies fella
Message:
Way to go Turner, let's just hope next week your not back in your mind hating yourself like Janice Wilson, now there's another match made in heaven.

You're one sad fucker

It can't be, surely no premie is still THAT brainwashed

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:05:44 (GMT)
From: Swami Suchabanana
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: apples/oranges: Never give mind to Greedy guru (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:36:01 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: What a freaking cop-out, Turner!
Message:
Turner,

Maybe that is your name for a reason, that you are supposed to
'turn' people? I remember you showing up here another time awhile back when I was feeling something strongly and you did the same number, as I recall. Very smooth and subtle persuasion techniques, Turner.

But here is the real issue you are not copping to. Let this be your litmus test:

Imagine your little daughter was a victim of Jagdeo. Imagine her years later having nightmares and remembering the visits with him in your own house or at an ashram. Imagine looking into her face and hearing her cries and feeling her fear and insecurity through your skin. Imagine that your daughter has told you everything she remembers and you are furious. You go to Charan Anand, Randy Prouty, Judy Osborne and tell them about it. They tell you not to worry, that Maharaji knows and it has been taken care of.
Then you see Jagdeo at programs and hear of his continued travels as an Instructor. Livid, you try to communicate with Maharaji's offices and EV. Maharaji totally ignores you and EV sends you a letter telling you that nobody knows anything about it, and that EV frowns on child abuse.

Tell me truly, Turner, where would you be now? Inside and outside? If you don't be straight here, then you did not really come here to communicate with me in the first place, just plant your own brand of seeds of doubt, maybe even your own doubts that you can't face yet.

So tell me, Turner. Walk a mile in Sue's mocassin's...Abi's.
In their father's mocassin's....that too is an old saying that is so true, to walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you judge them.

EMPATHY!
KNOWLEDGE IS SUPPOSED TO MAKE US MORE HUMAN, NOT LESS HUMAN!!!

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:09:38 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: What a freaking cop-out, Turner!
Message:
EMPATHY!
KNOWLEDGE IS SUPPOSED TO MAKE US MORE HUMAN, NOT LESS HUMAN!!!

Is it empathy you want or emotional reaction? I have a couple of family members dealing with sexual exploitation. Neither can confront their perpetrator, one because it is another family member and she chooses not to, and the other because she doesn’t know the guy’s name. Yet they still have to get past the residual effects of the encounters for their own sakes. Each must heal.

Let me ask you, is it healing you want or revenge? Emotion wants revenge but true empathy wants only to heal. The two are diametrically opposed you know. You cannot heal by getting revenge. I know a thing or two about healing myself Sandy and this is a fact I had to learn.

I am angered by Jagdeo’s alleged actions. I know that is emotion. But my empathetic reaction to a person who has been wronged, whether it be my daughter or not, would be to heal.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:52:07 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: What a freaking cop-out, Turner!
Message:
And if the perpetrator on your daughter was a duly designated represetative of Maharaji who was getting away with this stuff for years on more than one continent, even after she had been messed with, and you got no words of healing or otherwise from Maharaji, Jagdeo or any appointed person from the organization after reporting it, how would you feel and would you be as devoted as you are now?

Stop with the sweeping generalities and let's get personal. Because this is as personal as it gets, just about.

And no, I am not into revenge, but healing. Obfuscation, however, does not allow for a real healing and closure now, does it?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:03:45 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Come on, Turner, you can smell the curry on her
Message:
And the old man smell too. And he gets aways with it and goes on for years. And you don't even get a letter, a card, anything from Maharaji or EV about it. YOUR OWN DAUGHTER, TURNER!!!!!
MARRIAGE IS A TALL ORDER, BUT BEING A HUMAN BEING IS TALLER!!!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:09:55 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Turner, speak the truth and fear no man.
Message:
You invite a duly appointed visiting representative of Maharaji for dinner. He is regarded as a holy man and beyond repute. You allow him into your home, he breaks bread with your family at your table, then after dessert and tea he tells you that he wants to meet alone with your young daughter for she is a very old soul. You are honored and show him to a quiet private room and then walk away, totally trusting. Then the unthinkable nightmare begins for your daughter and you find out later. Very upset, you pass the information to Maharaji via a few of his most trusted assistants who you know. You get no response from EV or Maharaji and you hear from distant friends that Jagdeo is still in circulation.

Turner, take your time. Go look at your daughter. Give her a hug. Look into her eyes and tell her you love her, and that you will protect her from anybody who would ever try to hurt her or bother her. Really put yourself into this. Because for you and me this is theory, but for some premie kids, this was their reality. Then ask yourself, how can Maharaji say he's not in the loop? Omnipotent, omniscient, omniverous, etc etc. What good is all that omni crap if he cannot stop a child molestor working right under his own nose for years and revving on his energy and authority and travelling smoothly in its wake?

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that Jagdeo never was alone with Maharaji's kids once Maharaji knew of his propensity for youth.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 22:56:13 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Yes my son.
Message:
Do you think the best good you can do on earth is administer justice; be fair; do the right thing? Look around you, what does justice have to do with life? If justice is so important to God, why does life allow, and seemingly engineer so much injustice?

We get locked in the loop of crime and punishment, and right and wrong, and agreed, it does make you feel warm and cozy when your concept of justice is upheld and the punishment matches the perceived crime. That’s very Bollywood of course, you know…the good guy wins and the bad guy gets what he deserves. What about when it doesn’t happen that way? Well, many have screamed at God when that happens, and many have lost their faith? But who can argue with God? Well, unfortunately we all can if we so choose.

Sandy, you think you understand what really matters. Let’s face it, something needs to matter or you have little cause to get out of bed in the morning, right? But does what matter to you really matter? Well of course it does…to you…whether it does or not.

If you were dying by the side of the road and a thief stopped to give you water, would you turn away because you knew he was a thief? What would really matter…to uphold your sense of justice or survive to take another breath? When someone gives you the fulfillment that satisfies you completely and connects you with something that allows your heart to “breathe”, do you turn away because he appears to not have the same sense of justice as you?

How much justice really matters to an empty heart is about the same as how much it matters to a dying man. Are you still in touch with the silent call from your heart to be fulfilled Sandy? I personally could care less if a talking rock gave me Knowledge…if it brought me to the same experience of wholeness and fulfillment. That would be a very special rock indeed

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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 05:51:45 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: I am not your son, I am your brother. Big diff.
Message:
Turner,
I have copied your post and inserted my replies as the Spirit moved me. When you are done with this one, would you please go back to the post entitled 'speak the truth and fear no man' and reply to it specifically? Thanks. My replies are carroted for easy reading.

Do you think the best good you can do on earth is administer justice; be fair; do the right thing?

>I think it is one of the best goods a man can do.

Look around you, what does justice have to do with life? If justice is so important to God, why does life allow, and seemingly engineer so much injustice?

>Justice has been and continues to be a pursuit of human beings since the beginning of history and is regarded by all holy writings and teachers as worthy of striving for. I don't see it all, but I think alot of the bad stuff people bring upon themselves. Alot of the rest is innocent people getting hit with crossfire and fallout from bad shit going on around them and they are in range. Life is important to God, but he allows death.
I don't see God as 'engineering' injustice. I let my kids screw up sometimes just so they can learn their own lessons. I think God does that too on a grander scale. Are you implying that you don't think Maharaji cares about civilization as we know it and the world could become like 'Road Warrior' and it would be OK just so everybody had Knowledge? Justice and mercy are two sides of the same coin that appears in the Kabbala and many other mystic and ancient teachings that separates humans from other critters. Just because justice isn't always served doesn't mean that justice is not be important...it just means that people are not very conscious or compassionate yet.

We get locked in the loop of crime and punishment, and right and wrong, and agreed, it does make you feel warm and cozy when your concept of justice is upheld and the punishment matches the perceived crime. That’s very Bollywood of course, you know…the good guy wins and the bad guy gets what he deserves. What about when it doesn’t happen that way? Well, many have screamed at God when that happens, and many have lost their faith? But who can argue with God? Well, unfortunately we all can if we so choose.

>So are you saying that Maharaji is God and you and I are not? I am familiar with the book of Job. I understand that when shit happens one should not lose faith. But this is not the book of Job, thank God. Maharaji, being a human being like you and me, is subject to all the laws and rules that you and I are. He even said so. I am not seeking punishment, blood revenge or anything else like that. I just don't think any form of caste system should exist anymore, even the invisible unspoken hidden one that allows some premies to be more equal than others, and Maharaji to do wahtever and not be honestly and respectfully questioned in any way. I am seeking open truth and equal rights and fairness to be dealt to all people, for both premies and those who have come to call themselves ex-premies because of inequities in the system that were created by DLM and EV, aberrant mahatmas, and right under Maharaji's nose.

Sandy, you think you understand what really matters.

>I never claimed to be omniscient, but I do have a conscience that guides me to know what matters. And I do have Knowledge and know how precious the experience is to go inside, however one can arrive there.

Let’s face it, something needs to matter or you have little cause to get out of bed in the morning, right? But does what matter to you really matter? Well of course it does…to you…whether it does or not.

>And if a premie kid gets molested in the middle of an empty house by a mahatma, will anyone hear and answer the cries of their heart? (As in 'if a tree falls in the woods with no one around will it make a sound?')
>You are talking to someone with Knowledge. Keep your consdescending shit for an aspirant, OK? I know what you know and am aware of what you are aware of. I say we can be realized AND be just and merciful...On Earth as it is in Heaven, beautiful and whole. That is the promise I believe was made by another Master whose teachings I subscribe to. Do you have a problem with that?

If you were dying by the side of the road and a thief stopped to give you water, would you turn away because you knew he was a thief? What would really matter…to uphold your sense of justice or survive to take another breath?

>I would be doing that thief and myself a favor to accept his kindness, for it would be an opportunity for him to do something good that would offset the evil he had done, and it would also save me. Bad example, Turner.

When someone gives you the fulfillment that satisfies you completely and connects you with something that allows your heart to “breathe”, do you turn away because he appears to not have the same sense of justice as you?

>Maybe. If the thief gave you water and then he (and his crew) tried to seduce your wife, molest your children and steal your money, would you let him just because he gave you a drink and even saved your life? One thing has nothing to do with the other. Up until recently, I was convinced that the experience I enjoyed from Knowledge was available only from association with Maharaji and continued contact with him in whatever format he commanded in the moment. That is what I am really in question of now as a result of how other premies have been treated in various situations.

How much justice really matters to an empty heart is about the same as how much it matters to a dying man.

>What? In a way, we are dying right now. But we are also living right now. And justice matters to whoever it matters to. Having a love of justice gives deeper meaning to my life, even with Knowledge. And puleeze do not even try to characterize me as some goody-goody looking for som excuse to criticize the organization or the Master. I did not look for this, it crossed my path. I chose to look at the situation and not ignore it, like the Samaritan who stopped along the roadside to help a traveler who had been mugged, after so-called holy men had passed
the poor soul by. I have no marytr complexes or anything like that. Let's just say that I have acted out of the same heart space that Maharaji probably acted when he got his large vehicle and a chain, a tractor or something, to pull a neighbor driver out of a ditch once, or so the story went. I don't see the big mystery...I have only done what I felt has been the right and decent thing to do and that is to speak up.

Are you still in touch with the silent call from your heart to be fulfilled Sandy?

>Should I put my hands on my monitor now and repeat after you?

I personally could care less if a talking rock gave me Knowledge…if it brought me to the same experience of wholeness and fulfillment. That would be a very special rock indeed

>Yeah, and it would also be idolatry. Remember Mel Brook as Yogurt when he spoke to the Prince who lost the magic ring:
'The Shwartz is IN you!'

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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 16:27:05 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: PS to Turner...and this is a dialog, not a debate
Message:
Turner,

You implied that I may just THINK I know what matters, but be way off track to what REALLY matters. It mattered to me to respond to YOU, Turner. YOU matter, just like the folks here matter.

Do you even get a whiff if what I am saying here? I have poured out my life force, my energy, my time, concentration, intellect, love, patience to you and to the people here, it's all the same....

Check out the EV site, watch the Intro REAL close. Words pop up and fade out, but one word keeps coming back, over and over, bigger and bigger...and that word is P-E-O-P-L-E !

You know how it feels to be waiting for service in a restaurant or gas station when you have already begun the process of getting food or gas...as soon as you are 'hooked' into the process, the service level drops off a bit, and your waiter or attendant graciously receives newcomers, and you feel a bit on the back burner, even though you really need the ketchup to enjoy your meal before it gets cold? You know what I am talking about.

Practicing premies with life-altering problems that involve Maharaji, EV or DLM should have, IMHO, a way to express themselves to the 'management' - not be looked upon as detriments to propogation or 'enemies' - and find some answers or be referred to other experts, and closure (justice/mercy) via some arm of the organization that is there to reach out to just such people and situations, and they should not be looked at just as liabilities and a bunch of crazies or 'disgruntled' ex-premies who just want to hurt Maharaji. (Show me a 'gruntled' premie and I'll show you a 'disgruntled' one!)

Maharaji has a pretty healthy contingent of financial experts who manage his financial treasures, his financial wealth. If he put some applied expert energy into his REAL wealth, his premies, then maybe there would not be so many people problems cropping up, so many chickens coming home to roost in the Master's coop.
I am being true to my heart, listening to it and responding to it, just like Maharaji advised us to. And this is where it got me. And I don't question it because of how it looks on the outside, like I am a turncoat or a maverick or something like that. I am just being real with myself, using my heart and brain like he said to do. So Turner, who is more caught up in how things look on the outside, you or me? Do you love life enough to stick your neck out for it and risk the swords of others' opinions to guide your actions and your conscience? Behold the turtle, who gets nowhere unless it sticks its neck out first...
Is everyone who disagrees with the US government a subversive, an enemy of the state and wants to hurt the leaders? Some of the people who are the most vocal in criticism of the government are sometimes the greatest patriots and love the country much more than the herds of sheep who will go along with anything as long as it doesn't interrupt their regularly scehduled TV programming. I know there are always people who bring their own baggage to the table and it's a real mess and not a product of the present thing, but then there are many more who just got screwed one way or the other and deserve some sort of way to heal and fix it.

I daresay that some of the so-called ex-premies feel more of the love of God in their hearts than some of the so-called 'premies in good standing'. And what do you think God cares about, how it looks on the outside, or the motive of the hearts? If truly we cannot tell reality from the ouside appearances, then perhaps some ex-premies are not REALLY ex-premies after all, and some premies are not REALLY premies after all, in spirit and in truth.
Maybe we'll meet in the big locker room in the sky after the game and we can have a beer and talk about life some more, or maybe sooner while we yet live and breathe and have our being in this world. Either way, I sincerely look forward to your reply.

Think about it, my brother.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 08:40:34 (GMT)
From: Frank
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: I am your brother
Message:
Thank you for taking the time to write that. I hope he gets it. Come on, Turner, we live in the west, in a democracy. You don't have to squeeze your mind into any tight holes, bro. Your intellect, judging by your conscientious writing, is being wasted on a second-generation cow-worshipper and incompetent conman.
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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 02:10:22 (GMT)
From: Frank /Thelma
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Yes my son.
Message:
After 28 years I finally decided that I was having a better experience with Knowledge than most of the premies. I wondered why. Because I was not wasting my time worshipping a guru. And, since just coming out and saying that the man is an incompetent teacher at best and criminally insouciant at worst, it's just gotten even better. I am no longer crippling my intellect by looking up to some one who is obviously inferior. Trust your intellect and free yourself from the grovelling retro-feudalism of Master and servant. You'll breathe freer.
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 23:18:03 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Yes my son.
Message:
Turner said:-

When someone gives you the fulfillment that satisfies you completely and connects you with something that allows your heart to “breathe”, do you turn away because he appears to not have the same sense of justice as you?

Look Turner, I don't know who you are or whether it's worth my time trying to communicate with you, but let me tell you some facts.

Maharaji taught you some meditation techniques. For many people practice of these techniques produces intense feelings. This is independent of who taught them the techniques. These techniques are readily available from many sources, particularly in India.

Maharaji taught you that he was indispensible to feel the feeling you have. This was and is a lie. That is a fact. If you don't believe this, do some research into people who practice similar techniques learnt from other sources. Are you capable of doing that research? Do you have the intellectual capacity?

Can you not conceive of the possibility of Maharaji not being who you believe he is?

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:02:39 (GMT)
From: Turner
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Come on, shp...
Message:
Cut the theatrics Sandy…and how about a little honesty from you. If it’s not revenge you are inciting by such theatrics then what is it?

You want an apology from EV or Maharaji before Jagdeo has been convicted of a crime. If that were to happen Maharaji would have no choice but to abandon Jagdeo to the authorities immediately. The man is old. He is frail. He would not survive such an ordeal. Even Augusto Pinochet was given a compassionate stay based upon his ill health...and after the atrocities he was responsible for. And besides, how would such an admission affect Jagdeo getting a fair trial if it came to that?

If I may say, your emotions are confining you to a simplistic view of the situation Sandy. Crime and punishment is far more complex than what our emotions scream at us, or what is politically expedient.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:20:58 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Excuses, excuses, excuses
Message:
With India, it was the avoiding corrupt authorities.

With Jagdeo, it's his old age and frailty. (He wasn't that old when he did it and not stopped then...comments?)

With the blondes, it's none of your business and Eskimos do it.

I think it's called sociopathic behavior when everything somebody does wrong is 'somebody else's fault'.

No, I would not want to see Jagdeo tortured or suffer in a B-movie jail. I know it's a sickness related crime, and not something he can necessarily control. I think what is wanted here is something Billy Joel sang a song about, 'Honesty'.
Some honesty would make so much difference. I would be satisfied with that and knowing Jagdeo was somewhere he could not get to kids anymore. As for the rest of the crew here, I cannot speak for them. And they have been waiting much longer than I have, and some of them are actual victims, so if you want to know the level of bloodlust on this site, don't ask me. I am not into bloodlust or revenge as you suggest. I just want the record straight and my brothers and sisters represented and some respect for them, you know? Because if it could happen to one of us, it could happen to any of us.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:33:41 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: And if your daughter was still seeing a shrink
Message:
and had adult relationship problems with intimacy because of her ordeal with Jagdeo, would you still feel as sorry for him, or
would some of that heroic protective devotion go to your daughter? After all, Jagdeo has Maharaji and probably some top of the line attorneys at his elbow, and your daughter has only her Dad.

This is not theatrics, Turner. This is Life. Real Life.
Not under a sheet. Under the blue sky. Real stuff.
How about it? Wanna get real with me and stop with the
subtle upmanship games of who is right on and who is not, who knows how to devote and who has given into the dark side of the force, doubts etc?

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:24:04 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Turner you are sidestepping shps point
Message:
of course you have empathy for the victim
of course you disapprove of the molestation

no duh

shp is not talking about revenge he is talking about holding M. accountable for his organization and for his own actions.

even M suggest you use your brain.

dodging is not using your brain

when you face the questions it is difficult because it short circuits your cult programming.

until you fry when you face the issue you are in denial.

Z

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:18:28 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: But what about Jagdeo's Boss?????
Message:
You don't mention him and his involvement in your post about healing. Is it because you cannot believe he had any involvement? Or is it because you find it difficult to see fault in him.

Break free if you're serious about what you say here. You believe in forgiveness not revenge, you believe in healing not hurt.

It's time to heal yourself.

John.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:20:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Oh no! The Black Spot! (nt)
Message:
ggggggggg
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 18:35:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: You're a ground-zero cult member as per EV, Turner
Message:
Turner,

You're clearly a cult member by any possible stretch of the imagination. But, for a little fun, take a look at how you even fail EV's bullshit checklist:

Cults maintain a system of shared belief markedly at variance with that of the surrounding culture, and members need to be isolated from consensual information from the general society that would unsettle the belief system.

Elan Vital is a non-profit organization, composed largely of volunteers, whose aim is to help make Maharaji's teaching available to those who want it. Neither his teachings nor the process of communicating them lend themselves to becoming belief systems and he vigorously discourages attempts to make them so. Volunteers come from all backgrounds and live a wide variety of lifestyles.

Your belief that there is such a thing as a single 'Master' who transcends all judgement, talks to your 'heart' and guides your life to some predestination, falls squarely in the realm of beliefs EV denounces and claims you don't have. It is clearly 'at variance with [the beliefs] of the surrounding culture'. Moreover, EV cult members 'need to be isolated from consensual information from the general society that would unsettle the belief system' such as all the information we exes are just starting to grasp about Maharaji's true faults, mistakes, weaknesses, etc. The castle drawbridge is up like never before and if you can't see it, that's your problem. Everyone else can.

Cults do not allow the right to free and independent thought.

Practicing the techniques of Knowledge is an individual experience. Independent thinking is strongly encouraged by Maharaji and nowhere is it restricted.

What EV says about cults in this regard is absolutely true and yet their comments about EV itself are bizarre. Far from being an independent thinker yourself, Turner, you do indeed sound like one of the cartoon premies some of us make up from time to time. Someone asked you if you were Pauline Premie's husband? But don't you see that that's because you say exactly what such a made-up character WOULD say. You're too predictable for words. Any one of us could make up your next lines for you, as you well know. So no, Turner, you fail handily in this respect. If Maharaji truly does 'strongly encourage' independent thinking, he's failed miserably with you.

Cults close their borders and display a defensive behavior towards others in society.

Personal life choices and circumstances are not the concern of Maharaji or Elan Vital and have nothing to do with the practice of Knowledge.

The EV response is so bizarre and specious it's not worth commenting on. But the initial point about cults, that they close out the outside world, is true enough. AND it applies in abundance to EV as well as to your own sentiments. I don't see you ever suggesting that the world beyond EV's 'borders', including such things as the legal system, has any business prying into the affairs of your cult and its leader, even when he's killed a man. You fail in spades here, Turner.

Cults discourage contact with family members and non-member friendship circles.

People with Knowledge live within society and are active members of society and the community. There are no boundaries between the people that practice Knowledge and the society at large. People come from a wide range of religious, social and cultural backgrounds.

I don't know about your family or if you've got a 'non-member friendship circle' but I couldn't imagine you maintaining any relationships outside the cult. Do you? Tell me about them? Do you keep your beliefs to yourself or not?

Cults are usually led by charismatic leaders who demand exclusive and individual loyalty maintained through reducing the social roles available to members.

Maharaji is seen as charismatic by many, however he does not use this attribute in the exercise of leadership in anyone’s personal life. Furthermore, Elan Vital is not led by Maharaji, nor is he involved with the management of any of the organization’s activities.

Forget the preposterous lie about Maharaji not leading EV or managing its affairs. Although even you must cringe a bit at such blatant bullshit. But just think about this 'charismatic leader' thing and the 'exclusive and individual loyalty' factor for a second. Is not your whole life a statement of such loyalty? At least the way you would present yourself? That's what your posts are all about, Turner. There's no denying it.

Cults recruit people through brainwashing or mind-control techniques and it is very difficult to break free once recruited.

Elan Vital does not actively engage in the recruiting of members, and no attempt is made by Elan Vital or Maharaji to influence or manipulate anyone’s thinking. On the contrary, free choice is essential to every step of the learning process. People come freely, participate freely, and leave freely.

Pretty funny, huh? Your cult's got you to a point where the only measure you dare even acknowledge as being even slightly legitimate is your 'heart' and that you believe is your secret radio TO your cult leader. It's a very, very sick and closed box you're smothering in, no matter how EV tries to describe poeple like you as 'free'. Your 'free choice' was locked up years ago, Turner. Anyone even slightly interested in taking a look could see this about you in a second. You're a deeply-trapped cult member and I'm afraid freedom has nothing to do with that state of affairs, nothing.

Members support cults by giving over all their wealth and possessions. Elan Vital certainly relies on voluntary donations for a part of its operational costs. However Elan Vital has no membership system and no mandatory donation system.

We know the truth about this disgusting misrepresentation. We don't know how much money, time or energy you've given over time. Whatever. Good luck, Turner, you're going to need it.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:12:13 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey Hey Hey! Take it easy, Jim! I'm waiting for
Message:
Turner's reply to me. Don't scare him off!

I'm waiting to ask him how he would feel if he had to look into his own daughter's tearful eyes years from now, as she told him about the nice old Indian man who came and talked about Maharaji to her alone in the dark room when she was little, and how Daddy trusted the nice old Indian man because he was from Maharaji, and how the nice old Indian man played all kinds of games with her that felt weird and tingly and uncomfortable, and how he touched her....

I'm waiting for Turner to tell me that he'd say to his daughter,
'Honey, I love you very much, but shit happens...if you aren't cool with it, move on....maybe you don't need a master, but my heart says it's all good.'

Or maybe Turner invites a particularly juicy blond female friend of his to a program, she likes what she hears and goes for Knowledge, then gets propositioned to hang out with the Master, to her total dismay and disappointment. Shocked, she comes to Turner and reams him for introducing her to such a teacher, to which Turner replies something like, '...hey, maybe you don't need a master, and what he does offstage is none of my business,
but I did know he was into that sort of thing...maybe you don't need a master.'

Or maybe better still, Turner has a relative by marriage living
in a third world country. One day, Turner's relative is riding his bike to work on the night shift at the local airport on the service road and is struck and killed by none other than Maharaji. Turner, due to his extreme devotion, is in the car with Maharaji and also recognizes his relative dead in the
ditch. He tells Maharaji about his relationship to the victim and Maharaji directs him to one of the suited premies with the shades on to receive a hefty check and take it over to the man's widow and children, with orders to keep his mouth shut about the accident to avoid any local yokel police hassles.

So just be cool, Jim. Turner owes (?) me an answer. Or maybe he's just going to disappear now in the name of 'those crazy ex-premies are just so difficult to communicate with....'

Shhhhhhhh.....

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:27:49 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Sandy - your best post ever!
Message:
shp,

Your post 'hey, hey, hey...' is the best thing I have seen from you. Bravo! The point you make, in all three examples, is that Turner is living in an idealized dream world that has alienated him from his own personal humanity. If only he would see Rawat's actions in the light of his own real heart, he would understand the point you are trying to make. But I fear he will not. He has chosen against himself too many times to trust his own judgement.

p.s. to Jim - Bravo, as well. The irony!!

But these people refuse to see.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:17:39 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: I was like Turner...
Message:
but then again, that was before I had heard about:

* Jagdeo
* The Blondes
* 'Auto Knowledge' of Vehicular Manslaughter
* x-rated caste system

Then something started to.........drip.
Then the ceiling fell in and I had to admit the sky was in fact blue because there it was 'looking' at me through the hole in my ceiling from the drips. The kind blue sky over my head, feels so fine. It's not me, it's a natural reaction, as I see it.

I remember trying to explain the experience of Knowledge to
my friend and teacher, Stephen Gaskin, on whose Farm I lived and learned before finding out about Maharaji. This was years after the Farm and years since we had seen each other. I was living in Miami and he was passing through, visiting a dwelling in Miami that was sponsored by the Farm.

As I described the feelings and the effects of the techniques and how peaceful and calming it was (at the time it was OK to talk about the light, music, nectar, and Holy Name), he simply looked at me deadpan and replied:

'Oh yeah. We call that sanity.'

As I sit here and flash on that simple but profound remark, I have to smile and recall how similar childhood felt to having Knowledge. How the sun shined so sweet and yellow, how the clouds really did look like cotton, how the sandlot where we played ball was heaven and how my friends were archangels and cherubs, mythical god-boys, and Playing the Game was the Best Thing in the World.

And I remember how we would all be if anyone cheated or tried to change the rules. Everybody else would go:

'Hey! That's not fair!'

And the kid(s) who was messing with the rules or being a bully or something would either straighten up and we'd all forget it in a second and continue to play, or he'd leave. That was like Heaven. It was fair, everybody knew what was fair, didn't need any adults or teachers to supervise. We loved to Play Fair.
That is how children are when left alone to figure it out, and I have it on good authority that in order to get into Heaven, it is necessary to have the heart of a child. As I remember it, my heart was like I just described and it did feel like Heaven when my heart was like that. And now as I write this little note to you, my friends, I feel that feeling again. Thank you for helping me to remember.

Sandy

PS A note to all you cat lovers, you will understand.
During the last few days, as I have been being more straight with myself as to how I really feel and expressing it here, Cocoa our cat has been climbing up on my lap and laying between me and the computer with his body across my arms as I type. And purring like a motorboat.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:19:15 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Regarding Stephen Gaskin
Message:
I know two people who lived on the Farm in the 1970's. One named Vicki, and one named Marilyn. I'm not giving their full names in case they would object. Marilyn gave birth to a son while there.

I wonder how Stephen Gaskin is now? Any news?

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 22:47:52 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Regarding Stephen Gaskin
Message:
He's still kickin', in his 60's living at the Farm and doing speaking engagements and some writings. Also involved in social
change on different levels. We still communicate occasionally.

You can check out www.thefarm.org

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 22:36:27 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: The REAL Way
Subject: Regarding Stephen Gaskin
Message:
Hi Way,

Funny to see his name when I was just doing some searches on him. He ran for the Greens in the last election. http://www.stephen2000.org/ Sure Sandy knows much more about him!

Anna

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:51:17 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: It's scary but imagine.....
Message:
...if you hadn't heard about:-

* Jagdeo
* The Blondes
* 'Auto Knowledge' of Vehicular Manslaughter
* x-rated caste system

because they had been better hushed up. How would you have escaped? I like this concept so I think I'll start a new thread instead of continuing here:-)

John.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:03:09 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Ignorance would have been bliss (nt)
Message:
oyyyyy
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:24:52 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Better yet...continued from my last post...
Message:
So Maharaji just hit Turner's relative, OK? And Maharaji tells Turner to take the rap, say he was driving, and face whatever consequences he has to face to spare his Master the inconvenience of being straight about his own actions. I want to hear Turner tell me that it would be an honor or something, and that it would not bother him in the least.

As for his juicy blonde friend's scenario, she gets so pissed off about it, she not only ends her relationship with Maharaji and Knowledge, but she also cuts her ties with Turner and tells everybody she knows about the whole fiasco. I am waiting for Turner to tell me none of this would phase him in the least or give him reason to pause and maybe have his 'heart' checked out for a murmur.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:49:16 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Turner is a true premie
Message:
It has been many years since the voice of a true premie has been so clearly expressed, here at this forum, or even at ELK. Instead, for years we have had 'people who practice Knowledge' being inspired by a valued teacher.

But Turner is a true premie, who has never lost what he calls the 'true covenant with the Master'. He makes us remember this convenant which we all accepted in the Knowledge session: the acknowledgement of our own ignorance, the surrender to the Living Perfect Master, the rejection of our own inner voice in favor of the Knowledge of all Knowledges within.

Turner has made good on the deal. He has thoroughly rejected his own inner voice and hears only Maharaji: 'I send out a call from my heart, to my heart and wait in the silence for a response. And the only one who answers back, and who ever has answered back is Maharaji.'

Turner outright refuses to judge Rawat by any standards of any kind. To do so would be listening to his own ignorant voice. Everything negative comes from himself. Everything peaceful, beautiful, wise, and loving comes from Maharaji and the Knowledge.

The surrender is complete. The devotee has totally rejected his own inner self in favor of his Master.

With all the information now available about Mr. Rawat, the 80's and 90's-style semi-premie is now gone and no longer possible. Any premie who fully informs him-or-herself and whose own inner voice has remained intact will easily reject Rawat as being not only Not the Perfect Master, but a sorry mess of a human being.

There are now only two alternatives: freeing oneself from Mr. Rawat, or becoming the 'true premie,' one who believes that Mr. Rawat is above all humaness and resides within one's own heart.

Rejection of one's own voice in favor of the guru's is a very real alternative, and one that is taken by many many people, even to their deaths. The Jim Jones type of a cult seems nearly unimaginable, but it is very real. Elan Vital will definitely move in this direction, because the only people who will be willing now to stay on with Rawat are the ones who are willing to accept blind faith in the Master above all reason. They think they are listening to their heart, not knowing that their heart has been sabotaged.

Make no mistake. The guru who fosters this kind of faith in his disciples is a great criminal.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:00:08 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Way to go, Way..Don't miss Way's post above!
Message:
What a brilliant analysis!

You too shp.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:23:52 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Shp,you ready to quit the day job?U can write!nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:35:08 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: mcpass1@earthlink.net
To: la-ex
Subject: Gotta have a day job before I can quit one!
Message:
la-ex,

This is as good a time as any to say that I have to take a break from here and focus on getting my material plane together bigtime. I have seen my participation here as a very important part of my life and have put whatever time in as I deemed necessary, whatever the cost. That's how important it has been to me. Now I feel comfortable enough to cut loose for a while and take care of some other very important parts of life. I hope that I have helped others and not just received.

I am grateful for this site's presence and everyone who sincerely comes here to sort out their lives and their relationship with Maharaji. I will be tying up some unfinished posts such as Turner's awaited response, but I must put more energy into some other areas for real.

So take care and I will catch you later. I put my e-mail above if you or anyone wants to connect that way.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:18:56 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Classic Turner for your edification...
Message:
Let's call a spade a spade Mel. It all comes down to whether or not you feel Maharaji should be judged by the same standards as his students. Obviously for devoted premies, Maharaji is a cut above and not subject to their judgement. This is important because it's really the crux of the matter on ex-premie.org.
Some ex-premies are democratic libertarians by nature and feel that all people are created equal and therefore believe the same rules apply to all. Others aren't so politically inclined but see 'standing up to Maharaji' as breaking a taboo they are now convinced was an oppressive force in their life. The fact they survive their over-the-top derision of Maharaji without going to hell feeds their bravado and drives them to flaunt their disrespect for this person they once revered. It is the same mentality that fueled the citoyen's untethered use of the guillotine after the monarchistic icons of France were toppled during the French revolution. Such is the nature of republican tyanny.

So what is it Mel? Is it the student's place to judge the Master? If so does the student use the same standard to judge him as applies to the student? On the topic of Knowledge, does the student know what he or she needs? Is what the student needs the same as what the Master needs? These questions are at the heart of the argument.

First you've got to answer for yourself whether or not you buy into this Master (with a capital 'M')/Student thing. If you do, then inherent in that acceptance is the acceptance that the Master knows what the student needs in order to grow. Also is the acceptance the student is in no position to judge the Master.

Now I know this is a difficult one in light of the prevailing republican (small 'r') sentiment that dominates the world today. But the fact is all men and women on this planet are not created equal. Examples exist throughout time of extraordinary individuals who offered real hope and light to their followers. They were indeed a cut above.

But what ex-premie republicans hope is that there really isn't someone like Maharaji who can offer the real goods. If there was, they would have to cede their imagined political standing in the universe to another human being. It would also mean they would have to admit they failed as a premie - failure is a difficult pill to swallow. The world has seen examples of charlatans who misused the respect they were given by their followers. Ex-premies attempt to paint Maharaji in the same same hue as these charlatans who profit from deception. To this end they seek every opportunity to spin historical and current events to support their beliefs.

It is so clear this is what has happens here at ex-premie.org. Michael Dettmers, though I believe missed the point on the crux of the matter, has cleared up a lot of the fantasy created by the republican ex-premie conspiracy theorists. Most accept his disclosure, but only after he came out as being against Maharaji. Others still think he's holding back because, instead of painting a picture of the demonic madman they want to believe Maharaji to be, he describes a clear thinking man in charge of a difficult situation, attempting to do the impossible. He himself waffles between sentiments of Maharaji not accepting responsibility for certain matters in a way he believes is appropriate and respect for his 'remarkable qualities'.

For me, Maharaji is incredibly special. Not because I believe him to be but because he knows what I need to be happy, and has demonstrated that at every encounter with him. So I therefore choose not to judge him. I'll accept that the ex-premies' needs are different than mine. That I'll accept. But damned if I'm going to let one of them try and impose their values on me. My need is to be a student. Why? Because learning and growing is the only reason I see to be here. And the existence of the Master means the possibility to grow will never die. Even if mistakes I've made wreak devastation upon my life, there is always hope because there is a Master. And yes, as a student I recognize that my Master knows better than me what I need to keep growing.

Ultimately the reasons he chose to hide his lifestyle from us was, I believe, for our benefit. As I see it, it is no different than a parent hiding their personal life from their children. There is a time and a place for everything. We were children in the '70s and 80s. Now that we've matured, it is extremely unfair to judge ourselves or Maharaji for what transpired. But for the people who cannot find value in their life as a premie, judging him now is the only satisfaction they can wring out of all those years. All I can say is let them judge away if it makes them feel better. Personally their judgements will never shake my resolve to support my Master for the good he has brought to this world. And that good will not be tarnished by the ignorance and hatred of a hand-full of confused people who look for someone other than themselves on whom to blame their pain.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:57:44 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: gerry
Subject: ignorant and confused?
Message:
Gerry...that is an incredible assertion.I am not filled with hatred nor am I the least bit confused as to the nature of M's cult.Please feel free to e-mail me if you wish to find out more. I once stood in shoes similar to yours. But with all sincerity I can say that I have gained so much morre understanding, clarity and freedom since moving on. Believe me ...there is another step to take!
Best
Tim
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:02:46 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: ignorant and confused , that's me all right!
Message:
but that's beside the point...

Hey I was rummaging through the archives and found that little gem from Turner, our current resident cult apologist, who posted it in October of this year.

Sorry for the confusion. I left the lotus toes decades ago after a short but intense run for the gold. Obviously I got sour grapes instead! :)

Take good care of my pal Marianne of you see her.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 11:59:12 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: usual
To: gerry
Subject: ignorant and confused , that's me all right!
Message:
Hi gerrry...sorry I read you the wrong way. I thought you were propagating the infalability of You Know Who.
Ignorant and confused is fine as long as it doesn't refer to my attitude to M. On that subject I am Knowledgeable and clear
Don't Worrry We'll look after Marianne
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 05:15:41 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Tim G
Subject: Looking after Marianne..?
Message:
A warning Tim: she'll drink you under the table then blame you for the hangover...;)

(Hi Marianne! I'm back in England. What about another meet-up? Your city or mine? I've not been to Cork for a couple of decades.)

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:25:07 (GMT)
From: johnny payback
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: plans for oxnard-jan. 14th
Message:
everything and everyone will be in place-so there is no reason to conceal-from the palace guard to the rank and file-all know what to do---there will be peaceful but very demonstrative ACTIONS-look for the maharaji to shit his pants when he waddles onto the stage---this is just the beginning
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 16:13:56 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: johnny payback
Subject: Loved Uri's verses
Message:
johnny,

whatever is done that is not part of the program, will give him a perfect excuse to not have more open programs, and this will allow him to retreat to his yacht, any one of his estates or lands, and the big dish in the sky. The machine will demonize the dissenters and the pr will flow like holy water. just wanted to point that out, but you knew...still, free speech is great. That's a big reason why he settled down here, to say whatever he wanted to say without being arrested or persecuted for it.

by the way, did you hear about what was really said in the early days that got confused? there was a guy named Uri who wrote poems to Maharaji. as Maharaji was getting off the plane in the England in 1971, someone overheard him say:

'Loved Uri's verses.'

An overzealous British aspirant from the countryside who, it has been reported, may have been the first victim of mad cow disease before it was widely known about thought in his fevered mind that he heard Maharaji say

'Lord of the Universe',

and the rest is history.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 05:38:12 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy New Year
Message:
A local TV station (WLVI) broadcast January 1st from a downtown landmark. I was unable to join the cast of hundreds in the audience with their homemade 'Hello Mom in Chelsea' signs. I did however manage to duct tape my 'Who is GMJ' sign into the hand of the bronze statue of Ralph Waldo Emerson, which is right around the corner. Unfortunately, the roving camera never roved in that direction. Shit, I knew I should have taped it to the bronze statue of Red Auerbach, he was in the shot all morning. I was a bit too hung over to make the occasion, after a first night party that lasted two days and was climaxed by the worst fireworks display in the history of the world, 4 minutes long. My sign has disappeared, probably down at the 41st precinct, in the lost and found. Oh well, Happy Fuckin' New Year
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 06:04:31 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: jondon
Subject: well don't get too carried away with those signs
Message:
who was that nutcase who was always on TV via baseball games?

he had that rainbow colored wig and his signs were always some Bible reference like John 69:34 or something.

I think eventually he went whacko and the cops shot him in a McDonalds.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:27:47 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Signs, signs, everywhere signs....
Message:
Hi Rog,

'Money for nothing and his Yacht's for free' or

'This is now a free event...Maharaji will pick up the tab, man.'

'Watch out for auto-Knowledge, you may get run over.'

Or

A big picture of the yacht with M on board, in mala costume, big tits, and a hand full of cash.

That ought to get some dirty looks from premies. Security? Well, stand off the premises, and what can they do?

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:46:15 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia-shirts,shirts,everwhere T shirts...
Message:
How about some people crashing a program with T-shirts with your boob/yacht/cash logo on them, along with websites?

Drek-ready for a part time business?

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:00:35 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hello Dalai!
Message:
I got this in my e-mail and thought some of you would appreciate it....

This is what The Dalai Lama has to say on the millennium, which begins 01/01/2001. All it takes is a few seconds to read and think about.

Do not keep this message. The mantra must leave your hands within 96 hours. You will get a very pleasant surprise. This is true even if you are not superstitious.

Instructions for Life in the new millennium from the Dalai Lama:

1. Take into account that great love and great achievements involve great risk.

2. When you lose, don't lose the lesson.

3. Follow the three Rs: Respect for self, respect for others
responsibility for all your actions.

4. Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderful stroke of luck.

5. Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.

6. Don't let a little dispute injure a great friendship.

7. When you realize you've made a mistake, take immediate steps to correct it.

8. Spend some time alone every day.

9. Open your arms to change, but don't let go of your values.

10. Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer.

11. Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.

12. A loving atmosphere in your home is the foundation for your life.

13. In disagreements with loved ones, deal only with the current
situation. Don't bring up the past.

14. Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality.

15. Be gentle with the earth.

16. Once a year, go someplace you've never been before.

17. Remember that the best relationship is one in which your love for each other exceeds your need for each other.

18. Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

19. Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon.

Do not keep this message. The mantra must leave your hands within 96 hours. You will get a very pleasant surprise (this is true even if you are not superstitious) if you send it to:

0-4 people: Your life will improve slightly.

5-9 people: Your life will improve to your liking.

9-14 people: You will have at least 5 surprises in the next 3 weeks.

15 people and above: Your life will improve drastically and everything you ever dreamed of will begin to take shape.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:18:22 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Hello shp
Message:
nice to see you're up to your neck in this with the others. Keep it up.

Do you think that rawat sucks?

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 13:04:37 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: I Spam, therefore I am!
Message:
Thanks very much shp.
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:49:08 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: It's just that dumb Dolly Llama chain letter! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:28:19 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Not the Dalai Lama
Message:
This list has made the rounds for at least a year now. It is not from the Dalai Lama. He doesn't talk like that. Several of the points are stupid. For instance, try to put no.19 into effect tonight. I tried it once. I put M&M's into my spaghetti and propositioned a policeman. The results were less than ideal.
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 05:42:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: No, Way, it DOES work!!
Message:
Way,

No offense, but I thought I should try this myself. I think you maybe you just didn't do it right because, I've got tell you, it's been less than four hours and I AM amazed! I think you have to put the M&M's in just before you serve the spaghetti. You know, they're chocolate inside (honestly. Just break one open sometime and you can see for yourself). So you can't put them in too early.

And the cop worked too. Mine was female, though. Might make a difference.

Anyway, This spiritual stuff is great. And like I say, it's only been four hours.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:31:18 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: HOLD ON, Jim,I'm not so sure about that....
Message:
Maybe I got it all wrong or something, but I tried and it came out disasterously...

My neighbor is a single mom policewoman...I've kinda had my eye on her for awhile, if you know what I mean...

So I invite her over for a drink, and put the spaghetti, well cooked in a meatless marinara sauce, into the m&m's, offered them to her, and then propositioned her...

I won't go into the gory details, but I didn't get what I was looking for...

I could elaborate further, but I'm busy nursing a swollen eye, cleaning spaghetti off the wall, and picking m&m's out of the place where the sun don't shine...

I don't think I like being spiritual anymore...

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:37:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: But there's a secret ingredient: a child's heart
Message:
I don't want to get too gruesome or graphic, LAX, but the spaghetti doesn't even start to taste spiritual unless you're cooking with a heart of a child. You have to put it in early though.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:27:52 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey Salam ... Jim's a BABE!!! (nt)
Message:
nt, just like you like it Jim!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:27:11 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Hey Salam ... Jim's a BABE!!! (nt)
Message:
Cann't really understand Jims' obsession with spagetti lately. Maybe he can tell us.
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:47:47 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh Great Jim, thanks...NOW you tell me!..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:15:18 (GMT)
From: It definitely works.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: No, Way, it DOES work!!
Message:
Two hours ago I sent it to everyone on my lists other than those connected to ex-premie.org.

My life has been transformed! A world tour has suddenly become possible and I will be in Northern America during your summer.

The age of miricles (sic) is here amongst us.

Does anyone have the Lard's personal appearance schedule for this first year of the new millenium?

Oliver.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:16:57 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: No 9
Message:
Hi Way,

Number 9 was translated incorrectly. It should have read,

'Open your arms to change, but keep your hands over your bollocks'.

No. 19 made me think of a brilliant Japanese movie about the relationship between sex and food- Tampopo.

Anth the hungry.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 13:20:47 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: No 9, No 9, No 9, No 9, No 9, No 9,...............
Message:
.....No 9,......
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 00:45:30 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: No 9
Message:
Anth,

Number 9 was indeed a typo, but it is SUPPOSED to read:

9. Open your arms, but keep an eye on your change.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:27:19 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Now I DO feel a bit sheepish...sheesh!
Message:
I promise I won't knee-jerk a quote to this site just because it has a notable name on it ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever
again.

Hey, Anth, are you bazza too? I noticed he used the term
'bollocks' too and I think you are the only other one I know here who has used it. Clever observation or shooting in the dark?

Sandy (with both hands over his bollocks, I think.)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 09:23:28 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Baaaaing up the wrong tree.
Message:
Hi Sandy,

Happy New Year and hope you had a good Christmas.

No- I'm not Bazza- but we both hail from the same part of the world where Anglo-Saxon expletives flow like Charanamrit did in the 70s. I nearly always post under my own name.

How's it going?

Anth frantically searching for a testicular pun but finding only underwear.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 11:43:06 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Fine here
Message:
Anth,

I'm fine. Feeling a bit disoriented with all the changes going on, but feet are firmly on the ground and head is still in the stars.

Hope you find your bits and pieces.

shp

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:50:41 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Bollocks....
Message:
...is a term in common use in the UK (and in certain parts of Latvia) to concisely describe communications such as the contributions of SHP to this forum.

John

PS, Sandy, I sort of have a soft spot for you, but you deserve what you get here. OK, so you finally accept that Maharaji is not someone to follow blindly but you caused a lot of frustration on the way.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 13:20:50 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Bollocks....
Message:
'....but you caused a lot of frustration on the way.' -JHB

Dear JHB,

Nothing like a little guilt and blame to top off the experience.
Thanks so much.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 00:52:01 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Bollocks....
Message:
always wanted to know if bollocks has anything to do with balls.
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 07:06:39 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Bollocks = Testicles....
Message:
or Gonads or Balls or Pauti......
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 12:33:25 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk
To: JHB
Subject: Yeah but jhb, bollox is also garbage, bullshit,
Message:
talking out of yer arse, head wank shit, etc etc

PS great ta see ya around again,
methinx I have a grateful dead cassette to post to ya

want to send an add, or is the post risky in latvia?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:35:44 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Also 'the dog's bollox' for excellent (nt)
Message:
ah
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 14:58:38 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Cut it out u2
Message:
Am already confused. Is it bollox or bollocks?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:38:52 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: It's all about context Salam
Message:
I use the more phonetic spelling to indicate slang versions, which are much more popular than the original term and meaning.

And we haven't even got onto cockney rhyming slang yet, now there's a treat for ya.

The slang uses I hear about a dozen times a day, the dog's bollox for excellent is very popular on the house scene here, used for 'wicked'/'bad' ie good tracks that come out.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:55:09 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: So Not the Dalai Lama
Message:
You're right, this is SO un-Dalai-esque. I guess the Head Monk has become so idealized/revered in much the same way that Mother Teresa was that people feel just fine attributing generic New Age sentiments to him.

And, by the way, this sure as hell ain't no 'mantra.' Chain letter, mantra. Not the same thing, Jack.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 05:15:57 (GMT)
From: C.g.
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: So Not the Dalai Lama
Message:
My thoughts entirely when i recieved this superstitious chain letter about six months ago.

C.G.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 18:31:30 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's Watch Patent
Message:
Sad to admit, but I've just been browsing www.maharaji.com as people here have said it hasn't been update for a while. In general that's true - the latest statistics are from 1998 - but the event on Jan 14th gets mentioned, and there's a nice New Year's greeting.

But one thing that hit me was the following:-

Additionally, Maharaji has invented and developed a number of other aviation-related products and has a patent on a watch he designed.

Now I remember when we first took the piss out of this when the site first appeared, and no one could find any record of a patent. Well the words quickly changed to 'patent pending'. Well the pending has disappeared, so does that mean he now has a patent? And if so, does anyone know how to find details?

John.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 03:30:29 (GMT)
From: GIFted X
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Forget 'SWATCH'
Message:
The latest accessory for the guru-about-town is the:-

RAWATCH

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 02:21:34 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Maharaji's Watch Patent
Message:
Additionally, Maharaji has invented and developed a number of other aviation-related products and has a patent on a watch he designed.

Even if you accepted, for the sake of argument, that Maharaji actually had something to do with developing that useless item, what about Rives McDow? The patent website Gerry found clearly shows that Rives is a 'Co-inventor' of the watch, yet the Maharaji website makes it sound like Maharaji did the whole thing, single-handedly. What about Rives?

Most likely scenario, since I don't think Maharaji is actually all that smart, is that Rives developed the thing and let Maharaji take some credit for it, you know, as the 'inspiration' or something? But even if he did have something to do with it, leaving off Rives is kind of scummy.

This is in line with other misleading stuff on Maharaji's website. First, he takes credit, on his own site, for EVERYTHING. 'designed by maharaji, etc.' Extremely tacky.

THEN, in the statistics section he overstates everything. Even if the raw numbers are correct about attendance (which JM tells us are incredibly inflated) the bar graphs are completely distorted. I can't recall exactly, but going from 70 to 80 countries visited, causes the bar graph to double in size. Same thing for 'attendance.' Since Maharaji personally 'designed' the whole thing, he is the one responsible for that as well.

The sad thing is he probably doesn't even seen how transparently weird it all looks. But how many premies see it?

Also, I continue to be amazed as how extremely few premies actually post on enjoyinglife.org. I think that's because they have to give their NAMES and most premies are embarrassed about that site, Maharaji and most things having to do with that cult. They are into it, but they don't want anybody outside the cult to know that. This is why propagation will once again be such a failure. Who wants their boss, co-workers and families to know they are following a short, fat former-guru, who is a drunk and has sex with his devotees?

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 03:13:05 (GMT)
From: Watcher
Email: Credit where due
To: all
Subject: Rives McDow designed it! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 13:46:36 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Watcher
Subject: Rives McDow designed it! (nt)
Message:
Rives' email address was posted to this Forum once. You can go ahead and email him with questions re:the watch. He is a very nice guy and willing to talk about it. At least he was back when this was previously posted. Just be sure you don't let him know you're an Ex-. It is actually a pretty cool watch if you are a world traveler, or a person with a lot of time on your hands (no pun intended).
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:53:17 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Contact Rives McDow
Message:
I found his address in my book, I knew I had emailed him once. He is very considerate and will discuss his watch, at least he did this summer. rmcdow@enteles.co
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:02:05 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: What a worthless piece of shit...
Message:
goober's 'invention' is. How ridiculous! It looks like the product of a very stoned, spoiled techno-dweeb with too much money and time on his hands.

This is what he's doing to 'spread this knowledge?' I think NOT

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:02:26 (GMT)
From: bill-he patented it on
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: the old man's 100th birthday-nt
Message:
adrg
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 02:09:02 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: What a worthless piece of shit...Maharaji is!!!
Message:
Hi gerry and all,

After two drawings I was so bored I came back here...yawn.

After all the watches he has acquired in his lifetime from his devotees, he has the nerve to use another premie to patent a watch.

The absolute nerve. What a complete asshole!

Thanks for the link, and Bazza, thanks for the link to be able to see it.

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:44:30 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: For the pilot with watch fetish who has it all!(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:51:38 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Mock Not. World Peace is on the Way
Message:
Hi gerry,

You may mock, but when everyone on the world is walking around with one of these watches that automatically adjusts the time from a satellite when you change time zones (something most of us do several times a day) saving us all that wasted effort of pulling out that little knob and turning it around- when you could be tweaking a nipple with the same action- we'll all need a small satellite dish on our heads to facilitate this new technology. And now I come to the point- we'll be so busy keeping holding the dish up with the hand that the watch is not on, that we won't be able to draw swords, load guns, press buttons, drive tanks and do other warlike actions, that World Peace will have arrived at last.

Oh ye of little faith.

Anth- rethinking it all and giving him the benfit of the doubt.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:50:36 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Good link gerry - worth a look everyone
Message:
Might not be too obvious from the lad's post, but if you click on the 'NOT' it takes you to the actual filed documents for the contraption. Then go to the bottom of that page and click 'Images' to see TIFF drawings.

BTW anyone know who Rives T. McDow is who shares the patent application with the lard?

Good to know how he made all his money though. yeah right.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:26:33 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Good link gerry - worth a look everyone
Message:
Obviously, Rives T. McDow is the patent hold who understands what a polygon is as in:

If there is only one polygon name which is common to the two vector line names, then the selected coordinate is located within that common polygon 38

I'd be very much surprised if Maharaji with his superior 9th grade education has the slightest clue.

Hey, Bazza or anybody, I can't get the damn images to load. I don't have the ActiveX Gallery component installed and it gives me a link to Microsoft where I can 'possibly' install the Gallery, but I can't find no gallery.

And what the hell is the Patent Office doing requiring an ActiveX component on your machine? What if you are not running Windows? For chrissakes, it's just a goddamn image - just fucking display it.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:49:50 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Rives McDow was my housefather
Message:
and a brilliant jeweller. He once made me a fantastic ring, of my own design, for $100 or so. It seemed more money back then, but in retrospect I realized that this was quite a deal.

Very nice, gentle guy. I guess he's still possessed.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:19:19 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I had a bit of bover with it too
Message:
Seems like the images are TIFFs but something was definately clogging up my processor, almost ground to a halt.

Hey maybe they're running Lotus Domino :-o

So m's into polygamy huh? Figures.

But his whole watch thing is typical - you ask him for the time of day and he gives you a 17 page 'discourse' on cartesian polygons or some such tripe. Same with knowledge - just show people the techniques for gods sake dont ramble on for 6 months 'preparing' them. Unbelievable.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:47:57 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Roger et al
Subject: OK here's how to see the images
Message:
You just need to get the TIFF browser plugin. Took me about 2 minutes to download and install, then next time you go to the images pages, it opens up within the viewer, a bit like Adobe Acrobat, if you're not familiar with TIFF viewers.

Here is the free plugin (you have to register it though)

alternaTIFF

I'll check the copyright status on the images and if its OK I can put them up somewhere else as regular jpg's for others to see. The watch looks a bit like those big old 'Regulo' oven temperature controls, with a strap on.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 02:04:06 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Bazza
Subject: Thanks! Available Soon at the next program
Message:
I can see these honkin' watches available for sale in the Trinket Halls at the next program. Only $30,000.00 U.S.!

Only an anally compulsive control freak like Maharaji would really want one of these things.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 05:22:57 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I'M impressed.--he might just earn a living
Message:
at inventing stuff like this. it would be a first for him, ya know--actually contributing to the world for a change, instead of just take take take.
hey--we pay our sports and culture celebrities stunning incomes ( notice i said pay, not donate) for what they give the world.if he actually starts to produce something tangible, that doesnt require lifetime submission and brainwashing to obtain, maybe he's finally reached a karmic plateau in life.

this watch device certainly wont be anything any of us will need or be able to afford--but there will be a market for it.
BTW-- a gulfstrean V jet costs 40 mil., not 25 as someone here guessed a while back.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 16:21:18 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: and he should give the money back to the premies
Message:
who bought the Gulf Stream for him.

He doesn't need it anymore.

Lets do something. Lets beging all of us to send e-mails in his site demanding it! What a dreamer I am, always expecting justice...

I hate his guts!

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:02:15 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: I'M impressed.--he might just earn a living
Message:
Have posted both negative and positive comments to you over the time you have been here.

There is a possibility that I will be in LA some time before mid-year.

Fancy a meet and a beer, or whatever, if it happens?

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 14:54:40 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I'M impressed.--he might just earn a living..BUT
Message:
Hi janet,

I don't think goomraji would be able to sell those watches, after, all, living in Malibu, he'd have to go door to door, and that would definitely be below him.

Now that the patent is finally approved, I wonder how much $$ Rives McDow will get if, and it's a big ''if'' they sell.

Anyway, I still like the shawls Visions has for sale, but I want one at cost. Let's see, they sell them for $275.00US, cost is probably (imported from India) about $2.75US. Or maybe $25.00. Tops!

Have a good one, and enjoy your marbles!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 12:21:43 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: real life marketing vs our notions
Message:
first the patent. then the prototype. then taking it to various tradeshows, venture capitalists, potential contractors to manufacture it.get orders. get interest. get some articles in technical and trade mags for the kind of person who would want or need one.
strike a satisfacory deal with a famous maker to produce the first run. fill the first run selloff by direct order only to first run buyers. take more orders. let the first tier of buyers be the beta testers to suggest improvements or endorse the product as it is.
absorb suggested improvements and make second run of production. show at comdex. take more orders.

fill orders.

start advertising.
that is, unless shithead wants to own the only one in the world all to himself.
---------------------------
btw--the pashmina shawls really are that expensive. i priced them all over, at dozens of sources, when they came out. the lowest price i ever saw them for was 100 dollars, which i believe were leftovers from the previous year's shipments. the visions price is typical for the market. the shawls don't come cheap. to get one for $25 or $2.50 you would have to find one at a yard sale, being sold by someone who was utterly ignorant of what it was, and what it cost--like finding a diamond ring or an old custom made antique ballgown or bridal gown in a thrift shop . sorry. the shawls arent jacked up in price by visions to make moola for fatboy. they really are that expensive no matter where you want to buy one.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 06:00:21 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: janet
Subject: Yes, but have you been to the Trinket Hall?
Message:
ah, Janet, he may be able to sell his fancy watch, but you've got to believe that there are premies who don't need such a watch who will be willing to fork over a lot of money to have one.

Have you been to the bigger programs where they have the Trinket Halls? Sheesh! We're talking titanium watches for sale for big bucks along with all the other overpriced stuff.

The total crass commercialization was a last drip for me.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 06:40:38 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: of course i have, babe.--
Message:
wheb it comes to the trinket hall, i must say, i really enjoyed the trash pickings. the leftover latté's, carrot cake, bagels and Snapple's were excellent. and i filled two packs of marlboros just picking up the unfinished butts in the ashtrays. saved myself 10 bucks right there.

the live string quartet was nice. the decorations were fascinating. the little squashed marble drops of glass looked just like dew. i loved them so much i couldnt forget them. and then wouldn'tcha know it? someone on my block moved out and i found three bags full of those same dewdrop glass marbles in their trash.I used them to fill a lovely glass vase they'd chucked and I set it in my window. So very tasteful.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 08:28:48 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Happy Year 2001,Janet! Peace,Light,+joy to you (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 03:44:41 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: thunderstealing@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: LA event Jan 14th
Message:
Just got this breathless email from our 'city contact' - a dear sweet under-appreciated soul, bless his heart.

'I just got offical annoucement that M has invited premies (people with K only) to an Event and Knowledge review (auto-Knowledge?) in LA, Jan. 14th. I haven't got time and place yet, though it might be on EV website, or M's. love, St Francis Two (not really.)'

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:57:03 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: I am so thrilled
Message:
I almost wet my pants when I heard and I immediately went to the Elan Vital website to get the info and then to enjoyinglife.org to tell everyone, including Janice Wilson, that I am just so blissed out. Wow, I am going to take my car, which I am living in anyway, to Utah so I qualify to attend the event, being that there is limited seating and right now I am living outside the attendence area.

Wow, an ALL DAY EVENT!!! There is even going to be a PROPAGATION PRESENTATION!! Wow. I bet we will get to hear the word 'synchronization' at least 200 times in that hour. I need to be instructed about how to present knowledge to people, and how to tell them to enjoy it. All us premies need that instruction. I have only had knowledge for 27 years, so what do I know? I'm sure that after we all get instructed in the proper propagation techniques, which Maharaji as really thought out, by his grace, we will finally propagate correctly, and the torrents of aspirants will arise, and I bet then even I will get to do participation.

And an Auto Knowledge review, too! Boy, I need that!! The techniques can be SO complicated that I forget how to do them, or do them wrong, despite having done them for 27 years, and I constantly need to review them, since I am nothing more than intestinal bacteria without Maharaji and being constantly reminded by him of, of, of, everything.

But the best part is that Maharaji himself will address the audience. I'm going to go sell some blood to get the $40 for registration. Can't wait.

If any of you negative, confused ex-premies show up and cause a scene, I will be SO MAD..... Maharaji works his fingers to the bone putting these things together and flying all the way to Oxnard from Malibu via helicopter and all. He deserves better than to be heckled, or asked difficult, confused, questions by a bunch of unsynchronized people without that understanding.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 07:10:13 (GMT)
From: a sister
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Hilarious!!
Message:
Wow, an ALL DAY EVENT!!! There is even going to be a PROPAGATION PRESENTATION!! Wow. I bet we will get to hear the word 'synchronization' at least 200 times in that hour. I need to be instructed about how to present knowledge to people, and how to tell them to enjoy it. All us premies need that instruction. I have only had knowledge for 27 years, so what do I know?

ROFL

Keep it up. You are getting better and better

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 04:35:54 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: thunderstealing@hotmail.com
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: You are priceless, darling
Message:
Couldn't have expressed it better. Delicious. Oh for more satire.
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 04:04:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Someone should collect you too
Message:
Pauline, you deserve your own permanent collection sometime. Indeed, you, EV, Farkel, Tami and all the other regular 'premie' contributors. Perhaps when you get a chance, you can write your 'Non-Journey' for us. And no, no one's laughing at you. That would be mean.
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 02:27:07 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Pauline, I need to tell you something
Message:
Pauline,

This website is called the Ex-Premie Organization (EPO) because we are no longer premies who love Maharaji.

Pauline, sooner or later you need to snap out of your eternal bliss and accept and understand (e.g. 'stand under')this reality. You know?

Like you are just so full of bliss that you can't think or talk or walk all you can do is just be in joy.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 07:48:36 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: .
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Pauline, I need to tell you something
Message:
i naturally thought u were an ex , Pauline, u r aren't u? Did someone miss the irony or r u serious?
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 18:56:46 (GMT)
From: ij
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: Pauline, I need to tell you something
Message:
Dear boy
its well known that yanks have an ironey bypass syndrom
Regards

IJ

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:47:14 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Thelma
Subject: I'll be there!!!
Message:
Super! Now that I'm living in Camarillo, CA Oxnard is just a stone's throw away.

Oh, yeah! I'll be there!

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 06:19:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: You'd think there be a few hecklers these days
Message:
Imagine, thousands of people sitting there, there must be tweny or thirty, at least, who're so damn close to the line of actually standing up and saying something. Their minds are active, talking back to Maharaji, asking him strong, clear and direct questions..... but who'll actually say something aloud? Who's got the guts to finally talk back to this pompous paper tiger?

I know that when I first stood up and confronted Raja Ji from the back of the hall, I was nervous. It would ahve been so easy to just mutter something snarky, or keep it to myself, maybe vent a bit with my premie friends afterwards. But somehow, in that one moment, that just wasn't good enough. So I did, I stood up and spoke out. And there, for the first time ever in my many years of affiliation with this cult, I was mer again. No 'part of me' this or 'part of me' that. It was just Jim Heller, a plain, ol' human being, the very identity I'd been encouraged to surrender, squash and disavow for so long, being honest. And, let me tell you, brothers and sisters -- it felt good!

Maharaji knows the game. He knows that there are tons and tons of people in his audience that are just bursting with challenge, honest, well-deserved challenge. And it pleases him more than anything, I'd imagine, to know that the group pressure's too great, the premie 'black spot' too fearsome, for anyone to actually say something. Well, god, brothers and sisters, wouldn't you like to wipe that fucking smile off his face? You could do it in a heartbeat. All you got to do is stand up and be yourself. Speak your mind. How could you ever regret it?

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:10:15 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You'd think there be a few hecklers these days
Message:
Hi Jim,

nice to see you back again.

I been thinking of more creative ways to liven up a cult event.

The next programme in Europe, I'm going to cover myself in animal fat to repel security, and wearing only a crash helmet modified to include a flashing blue light and small speaker playing drum and bass, will run into the hall during the Lards' waffle, yelling through a megaphone 'It's alright. I love you all. I come in peace. I am not an Alien. I am British. I am free..etc'

Then, at a crucial moment, I'll bend over and light the Roman Candle.

Whaddya think Jim? A sort of slippery, non-vegetarian, art-show with a message?

Anth back in Holland tonight and back to work in the morning.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 05:21:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Sounds like ....sounds like .....a smurf protest?
Message:
Great idea, Anth.

Hopefully, your former students will be there and maybe you can have a bit of a chat with them and their folks.

'Hi, how're you doing? How's your little brother? My, have you grown up! Keeping out of trouble, Hansi? And, Wadi, you never did finish that project on cults you were going to do. Well, anyway, it's great seeing you all.

Daya, would you do me a favour? Do you think you could light something for me?'

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 02:55:50 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, I think I'd pay money to see this
Message:
But, what I don't fully understand is the need to bend over to light the roman candle? Or is it just to sick to discuss any further?
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:51:56 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: You'd think there be a few hecklers these days
Message:
As I said way down below, the possibilities are endless!

Ollie.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:22:35 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Wicked Anth
Message:
The last festival I went to in Brighton I had my headphones on all the time except for his exceedingly short speech, listening to drum & bass, the thought of talking to one more premie in my life, ever, was too appalling to contemplate, and do ya know what, best festival ever!

Yeah happenings man, I'd do some proactive stuff with yer when you're over, handing out leaflets and cards, which I keep thinking about, is just too tame.

Really ought to start chopping up his speeches into beats, and hand them out as kosher gm new music tapes.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:50:04 (GMT)
From: suchabanon'em
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ergo:Smart Cards. Security! Mach Schnell! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 16:52:02 (GMT)
From: Robin Hood
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: how about a prize for first one to pirate auto-K?
Message:
Is there anyone that anyone knows who would be willing to become an aspirant and get the auto-k off the internet,napsterize it, and offer it free to the world?

That could be a real service oportunity!

Anyone want to 'plug in'?

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:38:05 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Robin Hood
Subject: pirate auto-K? Don't do it.!
Message:
Auto-K is awful, It's just a DVD of him demonstrating the techniques, He has sooooo simplified it now that all he tells you is where to stick your fingers. There is no instruction on how or where to focus your attention, no helpful suggestions, definitely no words of wisdom or inspiration. He has reduced it to his own banal level. You would not be doing anyone a favour by disseminating it. I believe the 4 techs to have some value, but not the way he is showing them now.
Robin ,there's better work for you to do, stick to your old style, steal the yacht and either sell it to feed the poor or take us poor exes on a world cruise!
Will Scarlet sends his love
Kelly
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:06:38 (GMT)
From: Little John
Email: None
To: Robin Hood
Subject: No need to take the risk
Message:
Its only the techniques, which are shown on epo anyway. All you'd have to do is have someone demonstrate the techniques while you film them with that nifty DV cam you got for christmas! Then we can sell it on ebay and amazon z-shops for the price of a blank VHS tape plus shipping.
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:54:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Little John
Subject: Techniques. Jean-Michel m'aides stp.
Message:
HI Little John,

The techniques are on Jean-Michels website somewhere. He gave a knowledge review after a few pints of Latvian beer, and Marianne took photos.

I haven't got the link. Maybe J-M will oblige.

Anth the Zeltad

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 08:18:14 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Here's the link to the Latvian K Review
Message:
Don't miss this

And happy new year to you all !!!

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 05:43:23 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The Key to the 4th Technique!!!
Message:
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!

I thought I'd lost the key to the 4th technique forever, but now I have it ALL on hard copy. I will never need to beg m's lackeys to receive KNOWLEDGE now that I have all the secrets(not) that m has to offer!!!

Thank you, thank you so much, Jean-Michel. Wear the Maple Leaf with the same pride as the Toronto hockey players! ;-)

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 08:59:37 (GMT)
From: suchaboneanna
Email: None
To: annabanana
Subject: Event Schedule points2:Prophecy of SuchaBanana!(nt
Message:
LOL
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 20:22:45 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: suchaboneanna
Subject: I'll be watching the sky for signs! (nt)
Message:
LOL - hope it stops snowing soon! ;-)
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 21:33:29 (GMT)
From: sucha
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: U want a Sign? J-M's post[see event schedule] (nt)
Message:
suchiwuchi
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 23:02:20 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: suchiwuchi
Subject: Ordered bison grass vodka-still no prophecy! (nt)
Message:
Of course - the banana flavoured vodka! Hope I haven't missed last call .. what time is it now in Latvia?
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:51:47 (GMT)
From: Suchabanana
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: So, u guys R really bananas, too! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:28:37 (GMT)
From: Robin Hood
Email: None
To: Little John
Subject: I like your style, Little John...
Message:
Has anyone tried to seriously do this?
It would make a great new years gift for the maha, and potential aspirants could try it out before they spring for the big K....
EPO could make a few bucks off it to help support the site and the 'exit counseling' that it provides to recent exes and aspirants...
Kind of like test driving a new car before you buy it...

Anyone up for it?

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 11:43:34 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: You'd think there be a few hecklers these days
Message:
I had not thought of this scenario until I read your words Jim.

The possibilities are suddenly endless.

Oliver LOL.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 09:08:24 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sounds like the Rockwell painting of free speech
Message:
Yeah, your heart pounding all the way up to your throat?

Your vision getting blurry around the edges and very sharp straight ahead?

Your sphincter tightening up and you taking charge of your body and willing your life's energy up closer to your heart and brain and relaxing the rest of you?

Taking your rapid breath and calming it down consciously?

Your palms getting clammy and your arms and legs trembling not from fear but from an infusion of energy that you brain has released because it knows you want to do something extraordinary?

Yeah, I know the feeling.

One must choose one's battles wisely, however. Even you.
And even though we may disagree on style to this day, the substance of what we are saying is in more agreement now.
Do not rush to take any credit. Your style may well have hindered my understanding, not facilitated it.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 16:41:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Why, THANKS, shp. That was so NICE!!
Message:
Shp,

Norman Rockwell, maybe. But what's with the secular allusion, anyway? Why not some past perfect master like Jesus or the Grinch or someone? :)

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:20:38 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Custom role playing costs extra, pal
Message:
You want a verbal lap dance, see the poet on EV.

It's amazing what you can do with the cut/copy/paste buttons on these things, although I don't dabble in that sort of thing myself.

I could deal with the money and the stuff, with his personal marital and other problems (marriage IS a tall order, as he said) and even with the questionable business practices and always gave him the benefit of the doubt.

I could NOT deal with Jagdeo malfunctioning under Maharaji's nose for YEARS, the 'Chinese fire drill' at the scene of the vehicular manslaughter, hitting on female premies through his personal agents, and a few other things that are not as high profile but stick in my craw nonetheless.

The straw that feels like it can break my camel's back is teetering up there as we type. I was observing how easy it is to write off other teachers as they get exposed for doing some weird stuff such as Sai Baba and others. But when it comes to the one who we gave the reins of our lives to, there are psycho-emotional ties created that take time to undo, and like a good bomb squad, it is very important in what sequence and which colors specifically the wires must be cut to save the hostages who are
emotionally duct-taped to the device. We don't want to blow up the people, just the concepts, right? Anger, sarcasm and cynicism are not good tools for this work. Perhaps they are good reminders and good self-stimuli or with other who are more seasoned to remain engaged, but they are not helpful to someone who is in a very fragile state. Take the poet on EV, for example. What do you think could happen to her if she were rudely and abruptly introduced to the incontroverible truth that Maharaji committed vehicular manslaughter in India, seduced female premies under either duress or the mantle of his authority, or allowed Jagdeo to roam the planet for years, even though he knew there was a child abuse problem that was possibly going on unchecked? I would not want to be responsible. The way I see it, I am not morally responsible to tell anybody anything they don't want to hear, but I am responsible to tell the truth and my sincere feelings to whoever asks me. And I am always responsible to be true to myself, which supercedes all other commands, internal or external.

Maybe it wasn't a Rockwell, maybe it was a Kean...you know the ones with the big-eyed doggies and kitties? And there you are,
in a white robe with a lamb on your lap. A big-eyed lamb...

As the Dalai Lama said:

'...then it is appropriate for the student to criticize that
BEHAVIOR.'

He says nothing about personally attacking the person, now, does he?


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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 03:10:59 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: a compliment for shippie
Message:
shippy
I just have to tell ya one thing. I am really enjoying reading your posts these days. It seems like you have had a cognitive leap. You sound smarter. It's like your synapses are really firing away and your ideas are becoming more complex, your vocabulary more precise. Please don't take this the wrong way. It's a compliment.

I honestly think this is what happens when people start thinking for themselves again. Their writing gets better because their thinking gets clearer.

Helen

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 13:42:17 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Hi Helen
Message:
Thank you for the kind words. All the articulation abilities were there, but were held back because I could not use the creative side of my brain and rep someting I was not totally behind at the same time. At the same time I wanted to give Maharaji the benefit of the doubt. The information about the car thing in India and the womanizing sort of snapped me into another place, and I felt freer to express myself, how I really feel, not the premie party line, not how a premie is supposed to just keep his or her head down and not notice the teacher's ways or ever question them.

Yeah, this is more me. Thanks for hanging in back then.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:22:24 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Hi Helen
Message:
That's how I see it too. You always were intelligent but since you were on the fence, it was hard to articulate or engage in a rational discourse about Maharaji.

It's so heartbreaking to see what one cherishes sort of smoulder before one's eyes, but what you cherished was an illusion. However, your ideals were never illusions.

Even though M has lost your love and respect, you still have a lot of love to give and so, I think you'll actually find life easier (once the shock wears off).

Take care,
Hell

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 05:24:21 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Yeah, Sandy's a joy to read nowadays...
Message:
But he never seemed as cult-blinkered as most of the premies posting here - at least not since his letter to M regarding the Jagdeo business. And I can admire anyone who will process this stuff on an open forum, using their real name. Nice one, Shippie.

(I wonder how Mel B's doing these days?)

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:56:49 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: maverick premies
Message:
Hey Nigel
Sandy was still hanging on to his sweet notions about M, though even if he wasn't a cookie cutter premie. There are alot of maverick sorts of premies out there though. Just like a dear friend of mine who I had a very intense conversation with on New year's eve. This particular friend is one of the most mentally healthy people you will ever meet. She never followed the status quo premie stuff and always had her act together as far as career, relationships, etc. But M can do no wrong in her eyes. I believe that all these years the 'connection' she attributes to Maharaji is her own power within herself. WHen I verbalize that the reaction from her is 'Of course, it's inside, isn't that what M says?'

M has articulated on occasion, the fact that 'it's all inside' or something like that, usually referring to the 'beauty' of meditation or 'this gift of this life' etc. But he certainly doesn't focus on the other things 'inside' such as 1) psychological 'muscle' or 2) personal integrity. He emphasizes the sort of spiritual experience that one can have when one meditates so that the premie stays connected to *him*. If he really focussed on the person drawing strength from him or herself, there wouldn't need to be an intermediary (M himself) to keep the experience pumped up. I think that the illusion of a relationship with M and the illusion of his fundamental goodness or goodwill have got to be the hardest things to let go of.

Hope you had fun in Aussie land.
Love
Hell

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 08:29:49 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What did you say to the raja?..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:23:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I asked him for Claudia's phone number
Message:
This premie in the front was whining about his imaginary relationship with Maharaji. Raja Ji was squeezing people for money for Maharaji's plane (can't remember which but this was sometime around '88, '89) and this guy very sincerely, very gratefully, very humbly and very pathetically said that, while he was happy to contribute (of course!), he was all confused and depressed over the lack of devotion on the cult's menu then. Raja Ji said something canned and dismissive and that pissed me off. I figured the guy had asked an honest question -- along the lines of 'what kind of bang am I getting for my buck here?' -- and Raja Ji just blew him off.

So, feeling a bit of all the classic nervous signs(cf. shp), I stood up in the very last row and shouted out, 'Hey, that's not fair! We were told you guys were divine. Remember?'

Raja Ji looked back, smiled and began to chat with me a bit:

'Did you see the movie 'The Last Emperor'?' (It came out about a year earlier).

'Yeah, why?'

'Well, like in that movie, we were raised to think we'd never have to work for anything', ....(can't remeber the rest although, come to think of it, I bet at least one person who was there must read this forum. Maybe they'd recall).

'So what's that got to do with anything? Look, I gave eight years of my life to your brother on the simple understanding that he was the Lord of the Universe.'

'Okay, but were you happy there?'

'That's not the point at all! The question is 'was it true?' That's the question. Maybe I'm happy by nature, maybe I'm not. Besides, that was my twenties. What could I possibly compare that time with? I just know that I was told something and the question is, 'was it true?'

We went back and forth for a few minutes. At one point I jokingly invited him to my place in Santa Monica to talk this over. A bunch of premies laughed as one or two called out that they'd like to come too. Afterward, I went up to the stage, said hello. I mentioned then that I was a lawyer and his demeanour changed. He took more interest in me (probably thought -- quite mistaken -- that I had money) and we agreed to indeed meet the next day. I worked in West L.A. and he was going into Beverly Hills anyway for a haircut. He'd stop at my office on the way back and we'd go down to the Red Robin for a drink.

The next day he showed up. I wasn't dressed to the nines (wore a casual cord sports jacket, if I recall) and I sensed a little disappointment in the guy. He mentioned that Alvaro worked in my same building at the Italian Consulate and I guess Alvaro dressed better than me then. All my conjecture.

So we had a drink. Well, I drank scotch, he drank perrier. After a bit of small talk wherein he bitched about how little money Maharaji gave him (honestly!) I tried to ask him about all the obvious changes then afoot. What had happened to the ashrams? Why did Maharaji release all the initiators when he'd made such a point about telling them in their secret training that they'd break in million pieces if they ever fell or gave up that high level of surrender? And what were initiators anyway? Were they or were they not 'channels of his grace'? Did one need the 'touch of an enlightened soul to receive knowledge' as I'd been told, or not? And, more importantly, what in the world had happened to Maharaji's plan to bring peace to the world? And most importantly, who in the world does he think he is anyway?'

Raja Ji at first tried to placate me, appease me, tell me that I sounded so 'sincere' and that there were several instructors in Malibu that were really adept at answering such sincere questions sensitively. That irritated me. 'Hey, I don't need to have my feathers smoothed. I just want some answers.'

Finally, I said to him, 'You know, I shouldn't be asking YOU this shit, I should be asking your brother.'

That's when his whole patronizing facade fell away and he looked at me openly, matter-of-fact and somewhat sad and said, 'You know, he won't even answer ME when I ask him, or try to ask him, these kinds of things. I've tried and he just won't say anything.'

Well, that was that. I walked him out to his expensive, late-model old man's style Mercedes and shook his hand.

Drip!

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:18:37 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I asked him for Claudia's phone number
Message:
Hi Jim,

Raja actual bitched about not getting enough cash from M? The nerve! That's like hitting you up for a personal donation.

What a slug. Did you ever get Claudia's phone number?:))))

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 16:29:27 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Rajaji
Message:
I remember seeing Rajaji at local and regional programs. He'd show up alone or with one person usually, no fanfare, low-key. He seemed to be an engaging guy on his own merits, witty and all, but I got a 'well-kept whipped dog' feeling from him. He was always well-dressed, casually elegant, and spoke with a wit of his own when he had the nerve to be himself and not just the Brother.

He'd duck out to have a smoke now and then at the place we'd be having the meeting, and I'd feel like going out there and having one with him, just two guys having a smoke. But I figured he had lots of things to think about and ponder and I would be seen as just another groupie trying to get next to the blood, you know?
So I gave him his space, thinking he wanted to be alone, away from the adoring crowds once in a while.

Now it comes out that the worried look on his brow was not about how to help Maharaji bring Knowledge to a new region or country,
but more on the order of 'I need a bigger allowance, goddamitt!!
And I have some questions, too, like 'can I have one of those blonds when you are done with her? Put in a good word for your holy brother, Sant ji...I wiped your ass when you were a baby and you owe me!'...or 'nobody told us we would have to work in this lifetime'.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 00:11:31 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're not an ice crunching goat after all.
Message:
I salute you.

If each one of us stood the way you did, the freak won't last a day.

thanks

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:35:45 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Breaking Into A Million Pieces
Message:
Why did Maharaji release all the initiators when he'd made such a point about telling them in their secret training that they'd break in million pieces if they ever fell or gave up that high level of surrender?

I saw the brochure for instructor application in a car with two premies in 1978 or 79. I asked to see it - one said yes the other no and my request finally won out. The only thing I noted was that quote. It freaked me out. I got psychotic shortly afterwords. A bit of history.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:03:45 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: The Hidden Bomb
Message:
That's the potential of a religious cult, if the bomb has exploded in your being, you know Sandy is not joking when he talks about being careful in what order he snips the wires.

I am still in shock at the level of suffering Maharaji has been capable of producing in us.

Lesley

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 04:06:26 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: LA and/or Oxnard?
Message:
I got some e-mail about the Oxnard thing -- for people with knowlege only. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the words of Paul Kanter some to mind, 'There will always be assholes.'

Was thinking lately of how perfect it is that the little lying, manipulating bastard chose to live in Southern California. Of all the places around...yeah, we're the lucky ones.

It seems to me we should all call the venue and act like offical EV people and mess with the dates, times, rooms and arrangements. With many people calling how would they know who was legit? Or maybe just hire a guy to show up to make balloon animals in the lobby?

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 13:34:14 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: LA and/or Oxnard? OT
Message:
Happy New Year!

If you still have my email address please write to me. Your e-mail address got lost when I had to reinstall some technical components. Thanks.

Love,

sb

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 04:00:53 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Details
Message:
LA Event
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 03:47:37 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: thunderstealing@hotmail.com
To: all
Subject: PS
Message:
Auto Knowledge? I'll stick with autodidacticism but with a little democratic help from my friends.
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 04:23:38 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Auto Knowledge - I always knew Lard was
Message:
obsessed with cars, but this is ridiculous.

So: are any of you going?

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 06:33:33 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: all here
Subject: notice the materials-esp websites to go to...
Message:
shouldnt we print up a bunch of 'blow-ins', cards to be inserted into the passed out introductory packet of materials, as if there was an omission that was forgotten and was supposed to be included at the last minute, maybe a folded card woth the usual soft focus clouds or flowers or some such EV coloration, that could say on the front 'oh--and one more piece of Knowledge you should have...'
and the inside would say
'www.ex-premie.org'

or maybe sir dave's site, ' the truth about maharaji'
????
we could act all 'service-y' and helpful and volunteer to pass out the packets and slip our cards inside them as we gave them out.

¡viva la revolucion!

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 16:44:06 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I just printed out the Dalai Lama's quote from
Message:
DD's post and stuck it on the frige. It's catchy, humble, to the point, but very powerful...the words of a very simple, humble, living Buddha. Who wants to debate with him? Anyone?
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 16:31:25 (GMT)
From: Abbie Hoffman(spirit of)
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: janet-good idea,PLUS a few others...
Message:
Janet-I think your idea is great, and I would add a few other ideas as well:

Little inserts, or business cards with a website would be good, but I think there should be a link with a positive(pro-m) sounding name, rather than ex-premie, or truth about m etc...
Something like: To know more..., The next step...,How to find out more...What your donations buy...
I think that would be more appealing to prems and aspirants...the link would of course lead to the EPO site and all the others, but the initial draw would be something that appeared to be pro-m, not anti-m...
If m or ev had to announce to look out for bogus web sites, it would be all the better, as that would spark its own interest in what those 'bogus' sites contained..
Cards could be left discreetly around the hall, in hallways, bathrooms,etc..

Business cards or flyers on windshields of cars might also be good...

Also, might be good to discuss any serious plans off line with interested parties...

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 06:22:04 (GMT)
From: old 60's guerilla
Email: None
To: Abbie Hoffman(spirit of)
Subject: wont get fooled again..street theatre anyone?
Message:
come my friends--let us reason together. did we not learn from our experience in former days? let us draw upon this hoary wisdom, now that we find ourselves once again confronting a hypocritical leader who has betrayed our trust.

how many techniques can we summon back from the halls of time to exercise in this rich opportunity serendipity has presented to us?
if we were once hippies, yippies and protesters, can we not be again??

Rennie Davis brought ME to Knowledge. I haven't forgotten. Surely neither have you..?

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 02:34:46 (GMT)
From: Maurice
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Whaaaa?
Message:
When will we ever learn?. It looks like the Egomaniacs cult is going down the plughole. From all of the gathered intelligence on this site I have come to the conclusion that DLM in all its disguises is History. Is there anyone out there who can, at this time see that the horse has bolted. The next phase will be 'The West is no longer willing to recognise The Divine Bullshit and so I'm relocating with all my illgotten dosh to a place where I'm needed ie. Bali, or India, anywhere Other than Malibu and America where I might face Legal action from abuse victims. When all the dough is fed into Swiss bank accounts under PPSR's name He'll announce that the East is calling for the Master to come again and settle for a lower income bracket but an income never the less and he'll still have a hold an the ones who have a lifetime investment into his Godmanship to flounder around untill they too move on, and he'll be like a pig in shit and no'one can touch the fat barstard, Am I right or am I blacklisted now , Ever, Maurice
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 03:22:03 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Maurice
Subject: Never forget the net is global
Message:
Unfortunately for Maharaji, the internet is wordlwide and the developing countries which he plunders at the moment are getting more connected to the net year by year.

The following countries have all visited my web site, The Truth about Maharaji

AUSTRALIA, United Kingdom, CANADA, FRANCE, FINLAND, NORWAY, DENMARK, SWITZERLAND, SPAIN, GERMANY, AUSTRIA, UNITED STATES, IRELAND, SWEDEN, GREECE, BELGIUM, MALAYSIA, NEW ZEALAND, SAUDI ARABIA, ARGENTINA, JAPAN, CHILE, CROATIA, MAURITIUS, NETHERLANDS, INDIA, ITALY, LATVIA, URUGUAY, PORTUGAL , MOROCCO, GUADELOUPE, ROMANIA, THAILAND, MEXICO, SINGAPORE, VENEZUELA, SOUTH AFRICA

Sorry about the upper case but that's how it comes out on my site statistics.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:30:16 (GMT)
From: Maurice
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Murder.com
Message:
Thanks for the link Sir Dave, I was suitably shocked by the death of the cyclist in India but now not suprised by M's pschopathic behaviorism on that occasion.Does anyone have any info on the man and his family?.Does he matter?, after all he is just another victim and in no way did he choose to be on that road to be killed by the Lord. Or was he,the victim part of His, the Lords greater plan and then again how did the other fellow travellers justify this behavior, is it Murder after all or is it Road Rage or are coverups normal practice , will he murder again ? M.
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 04:12:18 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: LATVIA??
Message:
Was that the Latvian Ambassador perhaps [snicker]

Pretty impressive list. Now with a few mirror sites.....:)

I keep getting hits from Tonga, of all places. No idea where that is even.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:38:37 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bazza (and J-M)
Subject: LATVIA and ZELTA
Message:
Bazza,

Latvia holds an important place in the heart of several ex-premies. The first meetings of ex-premies in London were held in the Latvian club, near Hyde Park, where one forum regular is held in such high esteem, he is given the keys when the barman leaves, so we can carry on drinking Latvian Beer (Zelta).

Many wild nights have been held in this corner of Latvia, and there are some photos on JMs website of a knowledge review he did there after several pints of Zelta. (Jean Michel- if you read this, maybe you could post a link for Bazza)

I hope at some time, you'll be able to join us there one night for a few hours of sacreligious debauchery.

Anth the honorary Latvian

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:57:52 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: LATVIA and ZELTA
Message:
As the man Anth refers to left holding the keys, I must report some sad news. Unfortunately, the London Latvian bar is currently closed for renovation, and the Manageress has left after being badly shafted by the old farts who run the place. The last I heard they haven't found anyone else to run the place, so the chance of us having another 3 am. exes session there is slim. Better if all European exes come to my house in Latvia where there are many superior beers to Zelta to oil the knowledge techniques.

John

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 09:36:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: The Latvian Club
Message:
Hi John,

Happy New Year. I hope all is well in Latvia. Are you reliably online there yet?

That's sad news about the Latvian club closing. There aren't many bars in London where they give you the keys and tell you to lock up when you've finished.

Ah well- I'm sure we can find another venue for our anti-cult debauchery.

Any prospects of you making a journey South this year?

take care

anth who remembers the days...

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 13:44:33 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Don't remind me! (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 03:55:25 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: JHB/Anth
Subject: The Latvian Ambassador
Message:
Perhaps you haven't met EL LATVIAN

The anagrammatical Ambassador to the Lord of The Universe.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 09:32:28 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: The Latvian Ambassador
Message:
Hey, a waving flag too. Can you get the tits to bounce too Bazza?

Anth the repressed Latvian

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 19:57:25 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The Dancing Latvian Ambassador
Message:
With a bit a jggley-pokery, sure:-

The Dancing Latvian Ambassador

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:29:54 (GMT)
From: Maurice
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: The Ambassador of Evian.
Message:
In The Silence Of The Lambs, Hannibal Lecter refers to the Evian he smells on Lt. Starling whe she visits him in his underground cell. Could he mean Evian Vital.
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 01:42:24 (GMT)
From: Maurice
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Fund Raisin' for Domino.
Message:
The ELK fundraiser for Domino, not the Van Morrison track,it sounds challenging, I just had a bad idea, how about a 2001 Calender called Darshan Dolls and Horny Guru Guys. The contents could be astrological and esoteric, like say in January, show some Butt and at the same time say, are you using Maharaji to oil your hole to salvation ?, or in February, show some hot lips and say are you sure that's Divine Nectar your swollying, and is it fresh from the Lord ?. Another angle in March could be Darshan Dolls a peek at the latest and hottest Divine Guys and Gals laying down there ass to be serviced by God Himself , you are the chosen one ,tonights the night for some dirty satsang and get down on his holy Lingam and feel the grace flow, April could get a whole bunch of Innocent victims together for a Gang Bang of Bole Shreeing Buddies getting their Rocks of with the Rampant Rolex Raj. Do you think I got carried away, Maurice.
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:08:53 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Maurice
Subject: Great idea Maurice, think you should e-mail
Message:
them, but you left out a good un, a page showing the kinds of blondes little fella's into, and
a page of he himself, with of course a large plonker airbrushed in.

And wouldn't it be more truthful than the bumpf they put up!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 03:01:04 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Great idea Maurice, think you should e-mail
Message:
You'll laugh hamzen, so I have to tell you, that I thought he was holding his other hand!! Couldn't figure out what that pic was all about until you mentioned the air-brushed in plonker (what?!!) then, quick learn that I am, I figured out the Brit code and checked out his right 'hand' a little more closely. As Nigel can tell you - he definitely overdid it on the 'plonker' enlargement, just like he over-did the breast enlargement. Megalomaniacs ... absolutely no sense of proportion - everything has to be bigger than everyone else's - whatever it is! At least he scores a big 10 on the bullshit!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 13:42:18 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: But I bet ya in rawat's imagination
Message:
that's exactly the size it is, when of course we know in reality you'd need a magnifying glass, mind you I can hardly talk, but then mine isn't a blonde seeking guided missile sent from heaven, well not that I know!

And what's this gossip about Nigel, he's seen rawats plonker, this I must hear about!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:55:17 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: But I bet ya in rawat's imagination (ot)
Message:
You wish, I'm sure he doesn't! No, check out Nigel's web-page on Phallic Fallacies. Don't you remember the research he was doing at AG. or did you miss that? Note the incontrovertible evidence of dildo purchase preferences at the end, and no, I have never owned one myself! ;-)

(You were sounding like me up there talking about 'context' to Salam!)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:45:45 (GMT)
From: ham it up
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: From Mr Smug Bastard verging on Mr Put It Away
Message:
Well if Nigel's research was accurate, which from my research I know it isn't, well I'm well hung, when I know I'm just average. So what can we surmise, yep, ex-premies have small dicks, dongers, plonkers.

So is that the effect of ex-premiedom, or are people who were on a spiritual route on a spiritual route for inadequacy reasons. I think we need to know.

Also re size matters, well the survey was with a bunch of ancient hippies, who've had it up to here, or not.
Most younger women I've spoken to, well clubbers anyway, say it does up to a certain gigormous size.

I'm gonna have to speak to Nigel about this survey and have it out with him.

Of course it might be, that like height it all shrinks with age, unlike for women.

Ohh shit, I forgot, this is ex-premie org, off topic or what!
Ohh sod it, I'm posting anyway.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 03:49:22 (GMT)
From: Stonor- not Balls of Rock
Email: None
To: ham it up
Subject: From Ms Hot to Trot verging on Giving Up the Hunt.
Message:
Dearest ham it Up,

I think those primitive 'clubbers' are pulling your plonker. Listen to their vocab ... 'gigormous', I mean, really, I'm sure that word is not even in one of those humongously au courant on-line dics.

Now this is an excellent Freudian analysis of m's style of leadership: 'on a spiritual route for inadequacy reasons.' What was that about not identifying with ... ?

Who are you calling 'ancient hippies?' I have well aged abs! A battle of the wacky wankers sounds like highly edifying entertainment ... I just got it on the hotline that Nigel's back in town - see you both at the AG venue soon?

Shrinkage is not the same as sagging, except perhaps for those who prefer the internal Tower of Babel to aspiring ascension ;-)

Stand erect, as Elaine wrote, you big hunk! (of upwardly mobile ham! ;-).

onlyrawatandhooverssuck@ex-premie.org, even if this is ot.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:16:02 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: hamzen
Subject: You mean pictures like these
Message:
You mean pictures like these:

Blondes

or

The Holy Plonker

or something like this:

Happy Halloweenie!

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:42:09 (GMT)
From: Maurice
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Love those sexy shots of Maharaji
Message:
and the wanker, M's dick is big and looks larger than life, can anyone supply even more accurate details of his Wonderous Weenie, and if so lets have a good look now and get it off our chests for once and for all.M.
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:04:06 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Great idea Maurice...ot
Message:
Just checking. Hamzen=Ham, yes, no? Taking precaution, in case I reply to Hams' post on chemicals in the body.

Salam in the laundry trying all sort of chemicals

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 18:03:41 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Yep, just the same one
Message:
Hey salam, what ya got, what ya got
I'm having a quiet one on that front at the mo
well relatively speaking!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:52:19 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: nt/ot=up the tee
Message:
not a t
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 13:28:39 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk
To: Salam
Subject: Ya lost me there salam
Message:
But whatever you're on sounds interesting
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 23:42:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Yes, fine, Janice, but what's that on your face?
Message:
Here's another ELK poem from Janice. Seems like she's finally gotten rid of all the bad stuff. Just last week she was talking about the sickening sense of having snot on her face (sorry ...). Must have finally licked her pesky mind or something. Good for her!:

In me

In me is the sweet purity of the gardenia
In me is the soft beauty of a rose
In me is the bright glory of a sunflower
In me is the shining freshness of a morning glory
So, so much beauty is in me, my heart
that as it unfolds itself to me
so full of bliss I am
that I can't think or talk or walk
all I can do is just be in joy

Thank you for this Knowledge of beauty
And thank you Maharaji
for all the help you give me
so that I can see it
be with it, what I really am.
A being full of true, pure, eternal
beautiful, bountiful joy
fragrant with delight

Janice Wilson
Baldwinsville, NY, USA

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 02:29:17 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Janice lifted that from American Beauty
Message:
Remember the Ricky Fitz scene with the plastic bag being blow by the wind or maybe even the final posthumous voice over?

Come on, Janice! You can do better than that!

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:57:20 (GMT)
From: suchabonhomme
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Quelle affaire!She'can't think or talk or walk'(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:48:29 (GMT)
From: Proctor and Gamble
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Janice has stolen our copyright
Message:
We are requesting that our lawyers contact both Janice Wilson and a website entitled 'enjoyinglife.org' that they are in violation of our copyrights. Specifically the following are the copyrights of Proctor & Gamble:

In me is the sweet purity of the gardenia
In me is the soft beauty of a rose
In me is the bright glory of a sunflower
In me is the shining freshness of a morning glory

and:

A being full of true, pure, eternal
beautiful, bountiful joy
fragrant with delight

The above is taken verbatim from an advertisment for a female douche product called 'In Me.' Although Janice is obviously using and ejoying the benefits of our product, that does not give her or the website the right to infringe our copyright.

We are also extremely disturbed by the following:

so full of bliss I am
that I can't think or talk or walk
all I can do is just be in joy

This inability to walk or talk has not been proven as a side-effect from our douche product. We think Janice is just making this up to try to coerce money out of us. Fat chance. We believe Janice is suffering from a mental delusions resulting in her experiencing a catatonic state. We feel sorry for her, but Proctor & Gamble is not to blame.

Sincerely,

Proctor& Gamble
Cincinnati, Ohio

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:51:44 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Proctor and Gamble
Subject: Douche (pronounced douche-ey) nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 04:12:37 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That woman should spnd some tme wrking retail(nt)
Message:
blah, blah, blah.
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 03:41:25 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Did you ever think Janice might be neurotic, Jim?
Message:
Seriously, people who talk like Janice are manic, as far as I can tell. I'm just wondering if you understand that this person has probably got some deep rooted issues that she's running away from. She thinks she's found it all in the loving arms of her master, but all she's really found is a place to hide away in so reality can't touch her.

You're one of the most perceptive people I've ever known, Jim. I don't see where too much gets by you. You think of pertinent things that never even cross my mind, but I'm wondering what your game with this Janice Wilson person is. What do you get out of dragging her neurosis over here all the time? Maybe more importantly, what's in it for us?

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 06:07:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: No, she's just a premie trying to impress
Message:
Jerry,

My guess is that Janice is just another devotee trying to do Kabir-by-numbers and hoping to impress her fellow cult members. Maybe even the Hamster himself, should he ever read the ELK droppings. I only post her stuff to make fun of it and no, I never thought for a minute that that was unfair. What's 'in it for us' is just .... well, I dunno.... it's a joke, Jer. Do I have to explain it?

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:03:42 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim-I like your ELK Droppings-could be good title.
Message:
for a part of the EPO site where Janice, Ivette and other modern day Kabirs are read, analyzed and quoted...

ELK Droppings would be a great title...

BTW, in response to the NY fly on the wall, I never believed that you were the one that Janice had the fling with....

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 12:25:56 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I hope you're right
Message:
No, Jim, you don't have to explain. If it's a joke and I don't get it, it can only go downhill from there if you try to explain. I just hope you're right, that Janice is just a dope trying to impress her friends, instead of a manic depressive using ELK as a platform to increase her endorphin flow.
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:25:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Hey, look -- Maharaji puts them up to it!
Message:
This is from the latest EV newsletter. I think premies like Janice might be forgiven for thinking that the Hamster's running a Kabir Poetry contest:

'To live this life, my friends, you have to have a genuine passion. Nothing artificial. To live this life, to love this life, you have to have a genuine passion. People think Kabir was so wonderful because he was uneducated and yet he said all these wonderful things. Do you think it would have been different had Kabir gone to Yale and Oxford? If so, you missed the point. The point isn't whether he was educated or not, because, in the truest sense, he was very educated. More educated than most people. The point is that passion. Maybe you won't be able to write like Kabir, but you can feel the same passion. Passion is the point. That love is the point. That feeling is the point. That is achievable by everyone sitting in this hall, and in the city of London, and on this planet Earth. That passion. That love. That awakening. That joy.'

Maharaji's like a walking Newspeak machine. He takes a word -- in this case, 'passion' -- and just obliterates it. Mushes the word into a sugary goo in his goitered gullet and regurgitates it in yummy mouthfuls for hungry little birds like Janice who then spit it all back up on ELK.

And on and on and on .....

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 03:04:23 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you're mad - completely mad! ***BEST***
Message:
Maharaji's like a walking Newspeak machine. He takes a word -- in this case, 'passion' -- and just obliterates it. Mushes the word into a sugary goo in his goitered gullet and regurgitates it in yummy mouthfuls for hungry little birds like Janice who then spit it all back up on ELK.

Raja Ji would be an ex-premie himself if only you could have been this lucid when you had your fifteen minutes with him.

I doubt that this post measures up to being a EPO Best, but I'll take it.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 03:14:56 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sounds like a tampon advert
Message:
Did you see how many 'poems' she has put up at ELK? No bloody wonder the place is having technical difficulties (see my email from them below),its heaving under the weight of all that gooey stuff her and Ivette keep sending in. Its almost like they're having their own spiritual pissing match - whos the most devoted etc etc.

Reading that, I can just picture this 300lb Miss Piggy dancing round her boudoir in tootoo and ballet shoes, clutching a picture of her precious lord to her ample chest and fantasising about being the next blonde he calls to his hotel room. 'where's the peroxide...Im coming, my lord...'

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 02:53:53 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Sounds like a tampon advert (lol)
Message:
Ever get that 'not so fresh' feeling?
(;
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 06:42:33 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: LOL baz-you'd know, you're in video!!!ha ha ha ha
Message:
good one. spot on. snicker.
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 13:50:58 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: But are jokes about tampons PC? (NT) ;)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 16:59:21 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: If PC = Pretty Crude, then yes!! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 17:31:30 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Re: If PC = Pretty Crude, then yes!!
Message:
I concede on that one Bazza.

What is your favorite beer?

Oliver hangin' for a VB.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:33:31 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Favourite beer /OT
Message:
Boddingtons Bitter, without a doubt. Brewed in Salford, twin city to my home town of Manchester. Available over here in cans with a widget inside which creates a passably good head on it when poured.

I tried VB when I lived in oz, preferred Tooheys Old really.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:40:00 (GMT)
From: suchabeernanda
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: 1McEwan's Scottish Ale,2Full Sail Amber Ale (ot(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 00:04:27 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Favourite beer /OT
Message:
When Boddingtons was an independent brewery the beer was nectar, but now that Whitbread have turned it into a national brand (as well as international) it is a pale bland shadow of its former self.

When you get the chance try Timothy Taylor's Landlord in the UK, or Lacplesis Alus here in Latvia. Sierra Nevada is also a fine beer if your travels are confined to that country that plays baseball, and doesn't know how to count votes.

John the long time CAMRA member.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:49:00 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Favourite beer /OT
Message:
Samuel Smith's Oatmeal Stout and (much stronger) Imperial Stout

Samuel Smith's Nut Brown Ale

New! Samuel Smith's Lager, very creamy

Scaldis (A Belgian gem)

Palaner (German I think)

Nothing like an ice-cold Corona in the bottle with a slice of lime shoved down the neck, I don't care what anybody says...

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:06:35 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Aahhh, a mature palate. (OT) nt
Message:
nt.
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 02:20:58 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: I'm Glad To See She's Feeling Better nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 01:13:45 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Janice can't think, talk or walk? I smell cult
Message:
So, so much beauty is in me, my heart
that as it unfolds itself to me
so full of bliss I am
that I can't think or talk or walk
all I can do is just be in joy

All she can be by becoming a devotee is a smiling vegetable.

WHAT A JOY!!! rofl.

Poor Janice.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 02:42:51 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: SB
Subject: Vegetables Need Bliss Too
Message:
By the way, does anybody know what bliss means?
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 08:49:35 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Bliss
Message:
Steve,

I haven't checked out the dictionary, you can do that. But I recall a satsang by Shri Hans I read a long time ago in which he defined bliss as the experience of realizing that we always have everything we need right here right now, that all our needs are filled always and we only need to open our eyes and realize it.
The common denominator here is being alive, and that is the bottom line of what we always need to be alive is being provided, namely our breath.

This would be akin to Christ's riff about 'considering the lilies of the field, which neither sow nor reap, but are given sun and rain to thrive by their Father in Heaven.'

No thought of the rent, the job, the groceries, the laundry, the bills, no worries, period. Taking care of business without sweating it, that's bliss. Experiencing life and being overwhelmingly grateful for each moment of it as we go about our daily business no matter how stressful it can be, without getting stressed, that's bliss.

Or rather, that's my understanding of it and described by some sources I consider reliable.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 13:45:35 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Bliss: Well, shp, what about 'that' feeling
Message:
The word bliss is not used just by 'believers', is it? Example: My boyfriend is anti anything that doesn't start IN himself and he uses the word bliss when refering to this inexplicable feeling of feeling complete, fully happy we humans feel at times, and we feel it for no aparent specific reason. Endogenous. We cannot create bliss?

Can we ever be friends? Ha. Like I don't know anything about incompatibility of characters. Maybe we can talk to each other and forget about chihuahuas and stupid divisions. You see? I have friends of all nationalities because why not? What is the difference? We all can learn something from each other. I discovered exquisite cuisine and beautiful customes that have enriched my life and learned taht we all are moved by same emotions. Have you? Or are you a scared unloving divisive kitty cat? I would understand if you chose not to answer this post.

Sick of seeing your name and getting bad memories...

SB, being more in her true nature, read loving.

Take care.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:00:10 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: 'That' feeling should = This feeling here now
Message:
Hi SB,

Sure, we can be friends. I have no prejudices against any race, creed, national origins, etc. I love food from many different places. And some of the best friendships I ever had started out as not very friendly until we got to know each other better.

Replacing bad memories with better ones,

shp

PS Did you read this whole thread or just see my initials on this one post and have a negative knee-jerk reaction? Things are always changing and so are people including you and me, gotta stay current! Exhale the bad memories, inhale the good ones...

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:46:45 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: 'That' feeling should =no
Message:
I was joking saying, 'that' feeling, Lard, you know. Of course is present. Lard or others did not patented yet feelings, well, some may think they did but is not possible. Look at Elan Vital's site. LOL I felt them since I was a kid.

take care. I am glad you took my post with good will. I still use a lot of sarcasm in my writing. I find it humorous but I am aware that because I am a lazy, lacking time type of writer I sometimes do not make my self clear.

Is it true that you are not a premie anymore?

SB

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 16:04:43 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: 'That' feeling should =no
Message:
Is it true that you are not a premie anymore? -SB

I feel that I do not wish to label myself or others as one thing or the other. Labels are just too damned easy to apply and hide behind. Take me for what I say and make your own conclusions.

I, like Disculta, have hope for everyone to become better at who and what they are, including Maharaji.

If premie means lover, yes I am still a premie.

If premie means someone who blindly follows Maharaji, no I am not.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 16:12:43 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Good for you (nt)
Message:
Yes!
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 13:44:41 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Bliss is the consiousness of a vegetable...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:00:25 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Bliss is the consiousness of an ant too,.........
Message:
...... he gave that rave in my hearing one day.

They are especially blissed in my kitchen. Gone too their Maker via a suicidal swim in my honey pot.

Sorry if this is OT but today has been busy, what with having my mother admitted too a crappy nursing home.

Maybe Lard could help finance her into where we want to put her, which is the least she deserves.

Oliver, no longer barred.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 03:41:46 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: High cloud
Message:
You know, when your heart twinkles and you feel in 'heaven'...I know, you were joking.

EX: LOL What a bliss I feel when I think that I used to be a talking vegetable and I am no more.

Happy New Year!

:)

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 00:28:36 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maybe someone should call Janice to see if she's
Message:
blonde? There's a blind date in her future if she is. :-)))
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 01:31:37 (GMT)
From: NY fly on the wall
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: she's not blonde,she's brunette and she's...
Message:
married to a guy named 'Bob the Blob'.

BTW, Janice 's hubby left her a number of years ago, because Janice was cheating on him, and he found out...I think he's back with her....not sure if she has a poem about that one or not...

And, contrary to rumors that may abound,

Janice DID NOT have the fling with Jim ...

Fly

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 01:59:08 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: NY fly on the wall
Subject: No wonder she spends so much time...
Message:
chopping her liver on ELK. She should compile her poems and publish a book entitled, 'Hair Shirt in Baldwinsville.' Christ, she sounds like she's a human superfund site the way she denigrates herself, but, of course, that's what makes her the devotee she is. The bigger HE is, the smaller she feels she must become.

If she had the fling with Jim, she'd still be with him, no? :))

Btw, Bob the Blob sounds just deeelishus. Maybe he knits the hair shirts she so loves to wear.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 20:03:25 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Janice Wilson photo appears at ELK...
Message:
Go to their 'Lives' section, retrieve the posts 'by name.' Her post of June 14, 2000, 'Alive with pleasure' provides her photo. I don't think she's Maharaji's type.
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:22:22 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: I checked her site out and more...
Message:
After reading the once beautiful-to-my-ears-but-now-spooky-story of teacher-student love, I decided to check out all of the lives in the Lives section. The only familiar name was Charan Anand.

I have had Knowledge for 22 years and have lived and been somewhat active in some of the busiest and most populous areas in North America, namely, Philadelphia, Miami and the NY/NJ metropolitan area. Not one name rang a bell. So it ain't just me, is it?? I'm just more vocal than the rest perhaps.

I don't hate Maharaji. I hate some of the things he has been reported to have done or not done. His actions, not mine, have curtailed our relationship. I'm just using common sense as he always spoke of, that most uncommon thing, to make my choices in life. And my common sense tells me to remove his picture from my little table with the stones and candles and not to pray to or seek out someone for inner understanding who solicited sex from his followers, avoided the paperwork of an auto accident to protect himself, and turned a blind eye to a sick child abuser who represented him and traveled the world doing both for years.

I am tired of the 'hot potato' game. I didn't leave Maharaji. He left me, and propped up an EV public relations cutout of himself on a stage for me to stare at and marvel at while he was out having a smoke at the back door and waiting for a call from Dettmers regarding the premie in the second row with the red dress on or something like that.

If any of you premies reading this think I'm happy about this, go screw yourselves. If any of you premies reading this think I need to fight authority or some other stupid shit, screw yourselves again harder. If any of you premies reading this
think anyone here wanted any of this to happen, what can I say?
Just remember, if it could happen to one premie, it could happen to any premie. To thine own self be true, then you can't be false to anyone else.

I am tired of worrying about the end of the world and fantasizing about Maharaji having the power to somehow physically save me and mine from whatever chaos is going to happen and somehow land us in Amaroo or something like that....and laying back and not using my God-given smarts, heart, intuition and common sense to guide me to higher ground without selling out to someone whose actions I don't respect.

I feel like my 'karma' is still on his ticket, and so is the karma of everyone who believed in him who has been mistreated, misinformed, disrespected and disillusioned by him or any of his agents. I think the reason this all feels so shitty and keeps going round and round without resolution is because we don't own it, he does.

Therefore, I let go of all my complaints and problems in my relationship with Maharaji. I release them and offer them up to the Almighty Prime Creator of All, Numero Uno, for redistribution of this confused, hurt and damaged energy entanglement to the entity or entities upon whom the responsibility rests to correct and heal this sad state of affairs and the hearts who have been adversely affected, not by their own misuse or misunderstanding of the Knowledge or anything about it, but by him in whose hands I trusted with the reins of my life and those who he included with his dysfunctional ways. I sincerely hope, for the sake of all involved, that he gets straight with us who looked up to him and trusted him with our lives. And if that is not to be, then I hope and pray for the safe passage of all who seek the peace we have always sought to higher ground in this world and the inner world.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:49:59 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Sandy, this is powerful stuff...
Message:
..I don't know how you do it, but keep it coming, it is doing me the world of good.
More power to your elbow! I salute your strength and integrity.
love kelly
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:15:37 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Nothing a dye job couldn't fix.......:)) nt
Message:
bb
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 00:46:36 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: 'In me' will take on a whole new meaning...(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 00:55:22 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Eeeeuuuuuwwww LOL ,,,,,(nt)
Message:
mm
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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 23:59:50 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Janice, in you are also the daisies....
Message:
which that sorry Indian bicyclist is pushing up.
Smell them...
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 00:03:35 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Janice
Subject: He can't think or walk or talk either... (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 06:49:29 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: shp and the rabbi
Subject: yeah dead people are like that
Message:
total stillness within
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 20:25:48 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: close ... and have a cigar
Message:
click
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:05:07 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: yeah dead people are like that......
Message:
LOLQ (Quietly)
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 01:53:58 (GMT)
From: Rabbi Gutnick
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Who Shp?Love interest? Compatible?
Message:
Hey Shp , in my last lifetime , I used to be the 'matchmaker' and shit , you and Janet.....That would be a union made in Heaven! You sure it wasn't you she was cheating with Sanford? Or was it you she was cheating on? Naughty Sanford , joking about hiding the sausage? What is the world coming to!
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 07:33:19 (GMT)
From: janET, not janICE
Email: None
To: Rabbi Gutnick
Subject: oy gevult..you meshugge! you should know from!
Message:
such a noodge, this one! for a loyned man, you're not so smart, eh, rabbi? let's face it: sharp, you're not.How could you be so kerflempt!?how could you, a man of Studies, take me, such an intelligent, intellectual JAP, for that schisksa, that nebbische, this Janice somethingor other??that one, she's hopeless. and married, no less (it shouldnt happen to a dog). May G-d forgive me,but shame upon your house, rabbi! for going and suggesting to sanford that he approach ME! a wife he has!, not to mention kinder! Whaddyou think he is?? a guru or something?? God forbid!okay--So? maybe i have chutzpach. so?!--and a yenta I can be--ok! --but not even I, brilliant though I am, would think of such a thing! tsk!..on this one, rabbi, you fell on your tuchis. such a pity. and i thought so highly of you, too...now make nice and apologize! make your mother proud again.
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 08:33:43 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Rabbi Gutnick
Subject: What the world is coming to...
Message:
'Hey Shp , in my last lifetime , I used to be the 'matchmaker' and shit , you and Janet.....That would be a union made in Heaven! You sure it wasn't you she was cheating with Sanford? Or was it you she was cheating on? Naughty Sanford , joking about hiding the sausage? What is the world coming to!'
-Rabbi Gutnick

Dear Rabbi Gutnick,

'Anger, desires and attachments rob us of eternal life.' -Arti

'O Lord, guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile. And to those who slander me, let me give no heed. May my soul be humble and forgiving unto all. Open up my heart, O Lord unto Thy sacred Law, that Thy statutes I may know and all Thy truths pursue...' -Excerpt From An Ancient Hebrew Prayer

'Bless those who curse you...that you may be the children of your Father in Heaven, who makes the sun shine and the rain fall on the just and the unjust alike...' - Rabbi Yeshua

'Vengence is mine, I will repay, thus sayeth the Lord'. -Isaiah

Therefore, Rabbi Gutnick, I refuse to get angry at your provocative post, for I do not wish to trade my eternal life (being here and now) for the pain and misery of entangling myself with your splintered ego of Rabbi Gutnick and whoever you really are.

See? I have learned something from all this. Thank you for the opportunity to practice overcoming the urge to verbally retaliate in anger, blessed be Ha-Shem.

As for 'what the world is coming to', as you so aptly put it...

I was dozing in my bed this night and was compelled to get up and post something here about just that very thing, what the world is coming to. So here I am at 3:30 a.m. clearing my head of the confusion that has been perpetrated upon me, piece by piece as it floats to the surface, day and night, even now. And upon firing up my 'puter, I found your sophomoric post and have dealt with it with alacrity and calm, which is a New Year's Resolution of mine, to deal in all matters with alacrity and calm.

So here's the thing about 'what this world is coming to' that got me out of bed in the middle of the night to write it down here, fresh from my branch office of the Akasha that dwells in me. For if Heaven is within us, and God lives within us, then the Heavenly Akashic Library is also within us, the record of the way things really were, are, and will be. Kind of like the internet, only bigger. Gotta have a current library card to check out information, though. I don't know by what grace I have access, but I do right now at least, in the wee small hours of the morning while the world's buzzing is muted in the western hemisphere and one can feel one's own thoughts and realizations more clearly. Maybe I want to know the truth so much I got a temporary pass to see the Records. Whatever the case, I am really happy and grateful for the opportunity to have some clarity revealed.

When the current US president got, excuse the expression, exposed, in the midst of an entanglement with an intern of his, much public outcry ensued. Arguments on both sides of the issue were regularly available to the public through all the media formats. To fill airtime, some of the networks aired stories of former US and other world leaders who had also been exposed as 'players'.

One of the pat answers given time after time by the talking heads of one school of thought went something like this:

'We did not choose a saint, we chose a president.'

OK, I can deal with that. Running the world must build up quite a head of steam, so to speak. And the folks holding that office are not saints, but politicians. From time immemorial, leaders and politicians haved behaved the same. No surprises here.

We, the people gathered here, on the other hand, did choose someone who presented himself as a saint, yea, a saint among saints, to be our teacher. And that is why it is so, excuse the expression, hard, to, excuse the expression, swallow what has been reported herein about our teacher's behavior.

And that is, excuse the expression, the rub.

I do not believe that my Creator wants me to give up my common sense and intuition for anything, for those attributes are an integral part of my connection with Him.

Shalom.

Yeshiya (shp)

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 11:32:43 (GMT)
From: Rabbi Gutnick
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: My Got , boy , SHE is perfect for you!!
Message:
Au Voi!Soon as I read all your post , I know I am right.
THIS IS THE GIRL FOR YOU SANFORD!!!!!
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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 13:52:49 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Gutless
Subject: Whoever ordered the comic relief, keep looking.
Message:
Gutnick,

No more respect, not even mock respect, by calling you 'rabbi'. Forget that. Next, everyone named Nick won't want to be associated with you either, so you will just be 'gut'. Then the bowels of the world will revolt at being associated with you, so you will be called 'gutless', which is about the score.

The secret police forces of many countries have for centuries gone into places where they want to create instability and have stirred up unrest and senseless confusion. I am not unfamiliar with your tactics, but I just don't don't whose secret police you work for....let's see, no real name, using a title which commands respect, then abusing the attention you get. You are a student of...Maharaji, perhaps?

Below is the essence and substance of the original message, gutless. Try to pay attention and deal with that. I don't need any matchmaking at this point in my life. Maybe you should use your matchmaking gift to match up your innermost conscience with you words and deeds and end your pathetic charade. You don't bother me, you just take up time and space. How much of mine you occupy is my choice, not yours. Maybe something said in our dialogs will give you pause to check yourself out and ask yourself why you are pretending so much and insinuating your subconscious alter-ego problems here and with me.

So one more time, try to focus:

When the current US president got, excuse the expression, exposed, in the midst of an entanglement with an intern of his, much public outcry ensued. Arguments on both sides of the issue were regularly available to the public through all the media formats. To fill airtime, some of the networks aired stories of former US and other world leaders who had also been exposed as 'players'.

One of the pat answers given time after time by the talking heads of one school of thought went something like this:

'We did not choose a saint, we chose a president.'

OK, I can deal with that. Running the world must build up quite a head of steam, so to speak. And the folks holding that office are not saints, but politicians. From time immemorial, leaders and politicians haved behaved the same. No surprises here.

We, the people gathered here, on the other hand, did choose someone who presented himself as a saint, yea, a saint among saints, to be our teacher. And that is why it is so, excuse the expression, hard, to, excuse the expression, swallow what has been reported herein about our teacher's behavior.

And that is, excuse the expression, the rub.

I do not believe that my Creator wants me to give up my common sense and intuition (or my cool over some numbnut like you)
for anything, for those attributes are an integral part of my connection with Him.

Shalom.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 11:35:37 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Rabbi Gutnick
Subject: My Got , boy , SHE is perfect for you!!
Message:
Hey Rabbi - what a coincidence - two Jews on the board at the same ungodly hour.

Got anybody for me?

Steve

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 14:11:38 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: You can have whoever he has lined up for me, Steve
Message:
I'm not presently looking for a 'match'. Go for it!
Just remember, Gutless said he was a matchmaker in his 'last lifetime', so he might be a little rusty.

Did you get the Adam Sandler 'Hannukah Song' lyrics I posted gor you back somewhere?

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 15:55:17 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: shp
Subject: I Got Them, Thanks nt
Message:
nt
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