Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Jan 09, 2001 at 22:39:49 (GMT)
From: Dec 20, 2000 To: Jan 09, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


Carol -:- Preview: entry from my journal,to be published -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 14:50:14 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Preview: entry from my journal,to be published -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 21:25:36 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Preview: entry from my journal,to be published -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 22:09:47 (GMT)
__ __ Carol -:- Preview: entry from my journal,to be published -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 01:34:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Preview: entry from my journal,to be published -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 20:58:00 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Soemthing I never understand ........... -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:05:28 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Well it makes sense to me... (almost) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 02:18:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- The horns of a dilemma... -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 06:09:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- The horns of a dilemma... -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 06:20:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Food, etc. (OT) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:10:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- The problem, Nige, isn't the content -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 02:48:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rick -:- The problem, Nige, isn't the content -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 14:15:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Oliver -:- The problem, Jim, is that you are a PRICK!!! -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:13:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Dunno, maybe you're right, Jim... -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 03:44:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Ohh dearie me -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:00:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Right on Nigel! Hey I like the quotes! nt -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 09:30:30 (GMT)
__ __ Yves -:- Let me explain you how vegetable-talk operate -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 22:57:57 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- Re: Something I never understand ........... -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:05:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Something I never understand ........... -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 00:14:02 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- It maybe the way Carol expresses herself. -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:55:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carol -:- Thanks! I recognize the imperfection -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:58:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- you're welcome..nt -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:01:12 (GMT)
__ __ carol -:- Hope your coming year is full of what you ask for -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:23:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Is that what they call 'passive aggressive'? (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:26:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Jim: Yes, you nailed it right on the head!! (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:06:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Cynthia ... -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 15:17:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jgf -:- Armchair arrogance -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 20:16:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Anonymous Armchair Bully -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 20:26:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Frank -:- bullies- nice link NT -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 18:55:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Stonor.... -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 17:27:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Cynthia.... -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 19:02:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- PS - Cynthia.... -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 21:18:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Oliver -:- I hope some psycho client cutz your balls off. -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:16:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- But since you have a campaign going today -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 15:38:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ carol -:- Absolutely not... -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:56:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Fuck off with that shit, will you? -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 21:17:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Fuck off with that shit, will you?, and hand me... -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:20:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ carol -:- Yup, sometimes I am the Wise Woman of the Woods!nt -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 02:14:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- OK, Yoda, here's some unsolicited advice for YOU -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 02:38:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- OK, Arsehole, here's a quote for you, PRICK!!! -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:25:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Take your meds and go for a walk (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 16:53:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Jim's sarcasm reveals his predudice against... -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 20:48:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Keep a check on your stigma controlled mind....... -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 18:19:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I think u2 need to chill out a bit -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 18:46:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Now come on Salam........ -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 11:47:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks, Salam, I was really losing it there (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 20:42:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lee Westwood -:- Hear it Tiger Woods, you're finished (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 15:42:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Saddam Hussein -:- Yeah hear it George Bush, you're finished (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 15:47:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- Hmm...Productive? How about... -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 09:37:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- OH MY GOD, CAROL, I HAD NO IDEA!!! -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 16:58:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- I HAVE NO IDEAS!!! says canute legal clerk (NT) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 18:22:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Hmm...Productive? How about... -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 14:24:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Thank you for using the word, 'ensconce'.(nt) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 04:54:03 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- My take then I'll shut up -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:14:57 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- And I thought ... -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 03:53:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Good one, Stonor! -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 05:16:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- What's life all about Jim? (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 05:27:42 (GMT)
__ __ carol -:- Don't shut up -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:21:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- OK I won't -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:37:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Oliver -:- (Threatening Subject Deleted) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:30:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- FA - Very Uncool Threat - Please Delete nt -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:49:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia-Scorpio-1 -:- TO: Oliver and (FA please read this) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:22:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Ollie -:- TO: Oliver and (FA please read this) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 18:26:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Carol -:- One more point. You did not get it with this: -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 02:05:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Get real! -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:30:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Calling Audie Murphy!!! -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:38:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Chris H -:- Re: Get real! -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:09:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What the hell are you talking about? -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 21:20:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Get bent! -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:41:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Carol -:- Who is fuzzy here, peach! -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:00:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- I differ, I'll give him all the shit he deserves!! -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 18:29:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And you're being VERY effective -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 18:50:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ FuzzyNavel -:- Who is fuzzy here, peach! -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 22:56:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- ok! 'Timeout' from throwing the fruit... (nt -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 05:57:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Was that a sentence, Carol? (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 21:21:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Jim is a complete and utter arsehole (NT) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 09:34:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Canadian Pricks Are The Best -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:46:20 (GMT)
__ __ Observer -:- Guess you struck a nerve, Carol! nt -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:48:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- are you a 'real' observer, observer? -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:00:19 (GMT)

Salam -:- Just in case -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 14:04:14 (GMT)

AJW -:- Warning. You are under surveillance. -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 12:36:22 (GMT)
__ Ian Dury -:- Piss-off your favorite PAM!! -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 16:33:32 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Why Do They DO that? -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 19:54:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Why Do They DO that? -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 13:35:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Because they are lost -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 16:16:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Congratulations, Jethro! -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 20:26:45 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Questions for Phyllis -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 23:45:01 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Answer from Phyllis -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:38:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- What I understand from their policy -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 14:09:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- I'm not so sure Jean-Michel, -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 15:58:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Oh yeah, with k you know so much more -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:00:06 (GMT)
__ bill -:- those 'creative suggestions' are..........?-nt -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 22:12:08 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Hey, EV Monitors can you pass a note for me? -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 20:18:50 (GMT)
__ Oliver -:- Re: Warning. You are under surveillance. -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:22:45 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- The Beautiful World beyond the Cult -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 14:57:55 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- Warning. You are under surveillance. -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 14:55:34 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Tell me more -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:16:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim G -:- Tell me more -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 00:30:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- Tell me more offline -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 03:13:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Tell me more -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:02:04 (GMT)
__ deep mole -:- You're cheating -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 14:14:07 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- What? -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:56:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ deep mole -:- What? -:- Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 06:28:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- What? -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:00:39 (GMT)

suchabanangelo -:- We ARE SATsang here,rescuing lost souls! Peace (nt -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 06:48:49 (GMT)
__ Curious -:- We ARE SATsang here,rescuing lost souls! Peace (nt -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 22:10:44 (GMT)
__ suchabananer -:- POLL:This is our 'Service'-- or not? EVERYONE! (nt -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:20:58 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- POLL:This is our 'Service'-- or not? EVERYONE! (nt -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:35:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Or like they're saying in the USA: -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 19:44:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Well, I got a lot of people into this and... -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:58:12 (GMT)

Curious George -:- K.K. and Peter Potter -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 06:46:30 (GMT)
__ Happy -:- Jean's site -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 11:22:02 (GMT)

Thelma -:- Two anecdotes -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 04:25:07 (GMT)
__ Thelma -:- apologies -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:19:39 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- apologies -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:18:42 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- God! -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:09:08 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- Is your email broken? -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:00:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Is your email broken? -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:31:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Thelma -:- Is your email broken? NO -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:04:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- That was a Q to Jim, I got yours OK Thelma NT -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:06:45 (GMT)
__ sushibanana -:- 'Pussy's jihad'...'In the West we eat cows' Oi (nt -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 05:37:45 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Suicide -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 05:31:32 (GMT)
__ __ Thelma -:- Suicide -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 06:02:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- This is such a sad story -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 06:50:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Thelma -:- This is such a sad story -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:11:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Hmmmmmmm -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:21:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Hmmmmmmm -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:25:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Well I agree with Jim -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:31:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- I'll tell the story when I want to -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:54:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- But its not about you Thelma -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:24:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- But its not about you Thelma -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:51:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- you sound like a fucking fascist -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:38:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Bazza's cool. Why the over-reaction? -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 04:58:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Bazza's a true gentleman -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 09:17:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I can't believe you're saying this, 'Thelma' -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:59:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- PS -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:46:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- PPS to Bozo the clown -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 09:03:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Why this reaction when I just asked for the truth? -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:37:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- I want -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 06:20:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- I'll email it, drop me a line NT -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:15:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- PS Thelma I just emailed you NT -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:06:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- PS Thelma I just emailed you NT -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:23:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I disagree, Thelma -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:24:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Shortcomings must be revealed -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 12:00:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I completely disagree, Dave -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:48:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ sucha-wakeupcall! -:- Merde! Lost another poor soul. Stiff Upper Lip (nt -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 06:27:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- How Many More sad souls, before... ? Peace (nt -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 06:29:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- You're taking this lightly -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:06:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ suchabongo -:- It's unfortunate whenever Anyone commits suicide -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 20:17:38 (GMT)

Bazza -:- Thanks from Patrick Halley -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 03:43:29 (GMT)
__ cq -:- thanks TO Patrick Halley, and the Maha goes down -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 20:09:11 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- was guarding ashram phone during IHQ Denver calls -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 03:28:14 (GMT)
__ such -:- Patrick Halley: first ex-premie Hall of Famer! (nt -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 05:06:54 (GMT)

Pauline Premie -:- The gift of the ashrams -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:39:26 (GMT)
__ Thelma -:- The gift of the ashrams -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 02:46:00 (GMT)

hamzen -:- Anyone have digital recordings of gm? -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:29:24 (GMT)
__ ham -:- A database of gm's words, 'blondes' especially -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:25:18 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- A database of gm's words,Synchronicity -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 21:34:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- Good on yer Kelly (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 16:00:55 (GMT)
__ Elan Vital -:- Anyone have digital recordings of gm? -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:15:16 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen onthe path of lov -:- Elan Vital, talking to me, I am honoured -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:20:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Elan Vital, talking to me, I am honoured -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:34:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ham -:- I'm sure you're right BUT -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 19:04:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- I'm sure you're right BUT -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 20:11:33 (GMT)
__ __ Thelma -:- Anyone have digital recordings of gm? -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 02:51:19 (GMT)

Carol -:- Subject: Hello to all and Happy New Year -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:12:24 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Happy New Millennium -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 05:10:35 (GMT)
__ __ Carol -:- Happy New Millennium -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 09:56:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Happy New Millennium -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 04:32:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Carol -:- Happy New Millennium -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 09:52:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yikes!! That 'charisma' bs word again! (nt I wish) -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 05:11:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Charisma: Weber, Bly and Turner -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 19:21:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Charisma -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 19:55:00 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- Mary M. went to satsang:then fused HER Own Cult(nt -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 05:16:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carol -:- I disagree. No worship of Mary going on here... -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 10:13:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Wow, Saint Carol! And to think we all knew her -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:04:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- Who else Ministers and gets Money at LEC Church?nt -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 20:25:30 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- We've already done our HNYs, but .. -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:34:55 (GMT)

Yves FKA Boris -:- Sort of... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:22:45 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Hello, Yves -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:22:26 (GMT)
__ __ Y argue? -:- Hello, Yves -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 20:06:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- OK Yves, I accept that I have to .... -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 03:59:58 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Sort of... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:37:57 (GMT)

Yves+ -:- The Insider -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 22:47:39 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Are you the Yves in Montreal? -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:00:05 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Are you the Yves in Montreal? -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 02:53:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- I thought his name was 'Boofhead', Salam! -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 03:09:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Won't work. -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 05:03:13 (GMT)

Stonor -:- VIRUS ALERT: Snow White and the 7 Dwarves (OT) -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 22:31:33 (GMT)

JHB -:- Escaping from the Cult -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:20:05 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- Escaping from the Cult -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:40:14 (GMT)
__ __ shp -:- Shades of Kabir -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:55:27 (GMT)

Joe -:- Maharaji/Relationships/Surrender -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:36:41 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Hey Joe ? Full reference of the quote ? -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 11:20:44 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Hey Joe ? Full reference of the quote ? -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 23:54:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Rawat's most damaging stuff -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 09:38:55 (GMT)
__ suchabananda -:- m. lila [scam]: Do as I Say, NOT do as I Do! (nt -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:19:05 (GMT)
__ bill -:- a key find Joe. -nt -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:04:21 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Brillinat Joe - how could anyone.... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:45:59 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Oh, yeah, I forgot -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:48:10 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- That's not fair, Joe. He was really young then -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:45:48 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Fuuuuuuu Christ's sake! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:09:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick -:- Fuuuuuuu Christ's sake! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:27:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Not a bit of a war -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 02:21:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Pied Piper, hardly! More like fucking Satan! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:36:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Boy isn't that the truth!!!!!! nt -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:06:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ shp -:- Red light, green light! -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:59:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Dontcha just hate practical jokers (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:35:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Maharaji's ashram errors -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:49:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- It's here now -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 22:24:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Maurice -:- Emotional Suicide. -:- Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:03:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Emotional Suicide. -:- Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 18:24:01 (GMT)

Salam -:- In case anyone is interested. -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:31:04 (GMT)
__ Oliver -:- Re; In case anyone is interested. -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:03:55 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- May the Fourth Be With You (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:15:26 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- This could be extremely helpful...(Lifton)... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:35:25 (GMT)

la-ex -:- I remember the raja.... -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:21:36 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Yeah, I remember that -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 22:00:22 (GMT)
__ ham -:- The best and only premie joke ever,excellent! (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:24:54 (GMT)
__ __ TED Farkel -:- I need my friends...Raja, we need to talk!nt -:- Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:42:32 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 14:50:14 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Preview: entry from my journal,to be published
Message:
'When a person has had her or his heart broken; when they have opened their hearts and then have been betrayed or deeply disappointed, they often will defend that heart from any further pain by building a fortress around it. They refuse to admit all evidence to the contrary of the belief that: If I allow myself to love deeply or give my total trust to anyone or anything,it will cause me only pain.

This wounded person may build up their reason and intellect to the task of defender of the heart, and may do it so well that they may be sealed off from entrance to the fortress and their own heart that lives inside. Or they may forget it is there.

This is one example, of many that represent a person who is living beneath their full potential as a human being.

To become whole, I believe, is to integrate the emotional, sensitive, intuitive part of one's self with the intellectual, logical and objectively reasoning part of one's self. Then these attributes working together will help us to also integrate the mental, physical and spiritual aspects of ourselves to have a healthy and fulfilling life and to be capable of a richer emotional intimacy with another person.'

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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 21:25:36 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Preview: entry from my journal,to be published
Message:
Hi Carol,

Of course I loved your post and, from my experience teaching many embittered and alienated adults, I know it to be true. On the rare occasions when I can reach one, and I see them smile and laugh again, opening up their hearts and minds, I thank God. You put it beautifully. Thank you for sharing your compassionate understanding.

I apologize I didn't respond sooner, the bullies temporarily freaked me out.

Much love to you,

Anna

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 22:09:47 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Preview: entry from my journal,to be published
Message:
Hi Carol, since you published this part for our two cents input,
I was thinking that you used the third person in making your example. Try a version where you use first person and see how that looks also.
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 01:34:49 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Preview: entry from my journal,to be published
Message:
Ok! I tend to overuse the 'passive' voice.
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 20:58:00 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Preview: entry from my journal,to be published
Message:
I didnt notice you doing that.
It is snowing here. Have a good weekend Carol.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:05:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Soemthing I never understand ...........
Message:
To become whole, I believe, is to integrate the emotional, sensitive, intuitive part of one's self with the intellectual, logical and objectively reasoning part of one's self. Then these attributes working together will help us to also integrate the mental, physical and spiritual aspects of ourselves to have a healthy and fulfilling life and to be capable of a richer emotional intimacy with another person.'

Soemthing I never understand is how people can bandy all these empty terms around and think they're actually saying something. But then there are people who's whole lives are spent at this level, aren't there? Soft, new-agey cliches substitute for real thinking. Oh well. Can't wait to read the whole thing when it's done, Carol.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 02:18:32 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Well it makes sense to me... (almost)
Message:
To become whole, I believe, is to integrate the emotional, sensitive, intuitive part of one's self with the intellectual, logical and objectively reasoning part of one's self. Then these attributes working together will help us to also integrate the mental, physical and spiritual aspects of ourselves to have a healthy and fulfilling life and to be capable of a richer emotional intimacy with another person.'

The only word I can't digest is 'spiritual', since it no longer has any personal meaning. But for the rest of Carol's post, Jim, it makes sense to me to balance your emotional and rational responses to the world - as well as to trust your intuition sometimes. What's the problem exactly? Some sort of spiritual reaction? ;)

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 06:09:58 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The horns of a dilemma...
Message:
Nigel:

I can't seem to express skepticism and faith at the same time. I'm pretty sure it's because I'm too stoopid and lazy. So I guess, in a sense, I *have* achieved a sort of revelation...

--Scott

(If you suck your belly button in towards your backbone every time you're waiting for the light to turn green you'll eventually get rid of that paunch, or so they tell me. At least, you'll be able to roll your belly like a kuchy kuchy dancer.)

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 06:20:33 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The horns of a dilemma...
Message:
Well thanks for the advice, Scott, but I'm already so thin I can make those stomach muscles do the yogi sticking-out thing - in spite of the layer of squidge acquired through gorging on fabulous Australian cuisine for a month (no kidding - Ozzie food is the best I've eaten, anywhere).
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:10:13 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Food, etc. (OT)
Message:
Nigel:

I don't remember Aussie food as being anything special (either pro or con), so perhaps it depends on where you are (or where you're coming from). Vegemite and Promite weren't that impressive. (What are 'vegetable by-products' for heaven sake??) However, I like Asian and Pacific Island food quite a bit, and the huge diaspora from those regions into Australia has made the food much more interesting and varied. It's also a very interesting place, and the people are wonderful. It's like they're all from Oregon... but with a different vocabulary.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 02:48:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The problem, Nige, isn't the content
Message:
It's not the content so much, Nige, as the fact that someone actually thinks in these terms. Like, can you believe someone actually thought out this trite, useless nonsense? What's worse is that they think it's worth sharing with others. Now THAT's bad!

Example --

What if I posted something to the effect of:

'It's important to realize that true values are in the quality of the enterprise, that we're all human beings simply enjoying our lives in the best ways we see fit and that conflict can often be the source of confusion and misunderstanding. We should be balanced and remember, Rome wasn't built in day.'

Part opaque, part banal, part cliche, all of it useless. Like is there an operating mind here? Yeah? Prove it. Because all I see is some random cookie fortune cut-and-pasted from the seconds bin out behind a new-age bookstore. Again, that's one thing but the real question is -- WHY IS THIS PERSON SAYING THIS?

There ought to be a law .......

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 14:15:57 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The problem, Nige, isn't the content
Message:
You hit the nail on the head here, Jim...

WHY IS THIS PERSON SAYING THIS?

And you know, and I know that it's for no good reason. Like arrogance frivolously surfacing during a morning bowl of rice crispies. Public masturbation that we have to watch because Carol just can't, for the life of her, be interesting.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:13:00 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The problem, Jim, is that you are a PRICK!!!
Message:
Fuck off and blah, blah, blah.
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 03:44:35 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dunno, maybe you're right, Jim...
Message:
... but given the number of drunken 1000-word rambles I've done on this forum, making every post useful or meaningful is a pretty tall order, I reckon.

I just got this pretty useless Christmas present called 'The Pocket Philosopher' full of aphorismisms by a 'noted' philosopher, Simon May, with letters after (as well as in) his name.

He says stuff like:

Open-ended receptivity to someone's reality can be more intimate than the most passionate devotion.

or...

The shortest distance between two hearts is seldom a straight line.

or...

Can anything, even a thought be possessed for long without evicting its magic?

Pretentious wank, probably, but - shit - what do I know about philosophy?

And, as you say, WHY IS THIS PERSON SAYING THIS? Because words are nice and expressing stuff is healthy even when the audience is unreceptive. Or something.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:00:22 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Ohh dearie me
Message:
The three quotes you put in there I could relate to big-time, maybe I should be REALLY worried.

Still trainspotter is as trainspotter does I guess.

Welcome back to the land of the rain cloud Nige.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 09:30:30 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Right on Nigel! Hey I like the quotes! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 22:57:57 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Let me explain you how vegetable-talk operate
Message:
First, you assume some dogma statements nobody cares about. Senseless stuff nobody has ever questioned and if you ever do question them, you're left out. 'You couldn't understand'.

Anything that has a spiritual touch to it qualifies.

Astrology
Marxism
Religion/god
Emotions
Flowers
New year
Spring
Small amimals from birds to baby whales
Deep within inside

all are good tracks to follow.

Second, you juggle them with the same syntax you'd do for normal meaningfull stuff. You get vegetable-talk which sometimes may be computer generated. Hallmark is good at it.

The vegetable-talker never accept question nor criticm. This is a self-contained language. The contrary to poetry. Vegetable-talk kills poetry and locks you into 'already-heard' discourse. Never be afraid to question an criticize it because it is meant to kill language. I didn't have to tell you that, my sweet pumpkin pie eating tropical hummingbird.

I am weird and proud of it.

Remember Isadora Dunkin

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:05:19 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Something I never understand ...........
Message:
Careful Jim or I will repost that e-mail from my cykolojust.

Remember that one?

Oliver.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 00:14:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Re: Something I never understand ...........
Message:
Yo, Ollie!

What's a psi-call-adjust?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:55:51 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It maybe the way Carol expresses herself.
Message:
I can relate to the first part, but perhaps a bit of editing(god forbid, I did not say that) to the last part can fix it.

But do not be put down, I am a dork too Carol.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:58:21 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Thanks! I recognize the imperfection
Message:
of my expression. May Dorks rule!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:01:12 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: you're welcome..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:23:58 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hope your coming year is full of what you ask for
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:26:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Is that what they call 'passive aggressive'? (nt)
Message:
ffffffff
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:06:42 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim: Yes, you nailed it right on the head!! (nt)
Message:
ffff
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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 15:17:31 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia ...
Message:
I don't think you are familiar with all the issues and background here, so I'm not too sure why you are so quick to agree with Jim that Carol is 'passive agressive'. Carol has no hidden agenda. Jim is a clear-cut example of an overt-aggressive serial bully, but I'm sure with a bit of time, that might become more clear to you. Check out this link:Bully online

Hope both you and Jean are well! All the best in the New Year!

Love, Anna

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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 20:16:45 (GMT)
From: Jgf
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Armchair arrogance
Message:
You don't know Jim at all.
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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 20:26:14 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jgf
Subject: Anonymous Armchair Bully
Message:
I know enough to know I would not want to get to know him better unless he undertook serious therapy. And how well do you know him? Believe me, bullies are well documented to be charismatic charmers when they want to be. I know this from personal experience with a few. Haven't you learned anything from the m-trip?
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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 18:55:20 (GMT)
From: Frank
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: bullies- nice link NT
Message:
Think PTL
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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 17:27:03 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Stonor....
Message:
Hi Stonor,

I am pretty much aware of how Jim conducts himself here. I have nothing against Carol at all. In fact, I should have kept out of the conversation, because I don't know Carol.

Her one ''nt'' statement sounded sarcastic to me, so I agreed with Jim that it was passive-aggressive. But I spoke too soon, (not unusual for me), because she later clarified it.

I am also very annoyed by Oliver. Who is she/he, anyway?

So, my apologies to Carol. Btw, when I read the piece of her journey, it was written in third person (sort of), so I guess I also was a bit triggered...not by the content, but because ''you know who'' so often, and regularly speaks about himself in the third person.

Jean is doing fine, it's her daughter, who is in charge of her care that all of Jean's caregivers are having problems with--whenever the daughter shows up at Jean's all she does is argue with the poor woman, and she gets very upset. Not how I would treat my own mother....

Other than that, I'm well, recovering from a nasty cold, enjoying the tons of snow here, and hope you are doing well. Happy New Year!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 19:02:15 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor21@hotmail.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia....
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

You're not the only one, that's what I figured, and I'm sure Carol understood. I hope Oliver doesn't mind my explaining a bit - as he's been rather open about it here, I'll go ahead as briefly as I can.

A number of people here have had severe mental health challenges (and who hasn't to some degree at some point in this world), often triggered/exacerbated by the m-trip. A while ago Jim went way over the top and, as a classic bully, relentlessly and ruthlessly attacked those with mental health issues by posting, at one point, a subject stating categorically that 'all mentally ill people should be disempowered', which he ignorantly expanded upon. To my knowledge he has never rescinded nor apologized, and as you can read, to this day still continues give many of these people, and others, an extrememly rough time. I feel that this is highly inappropriate and counter-productive, as this should be a place where all ex-premies should be able to find compassionate unbiased support. As Oliver is dealing with an extremely difficult crisis with the mental health 'authorities' in Oz right now, I fully understand his reaction, however apparently inappropriate.

For these reasons, although I feel sorry for Jim's extreme lack of mental health, I have no tolerance for his aggressive posts for any reason - there is NO excuse for it.

I'm sorry to hear about Jean's daughter making a difficult situation more difficult. I'm sure your wheels are turning as to how to improve things. Sounds like her daughter needs to see a therapist!

Glad you're over your cold. If you ever come up to Montreal be sure to let me know - I'd love to meet you! (And if you have a copy of LOTU ....;-)

Big hugs to you Cynthia!

Love, Anna

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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 21:18:03 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: PS - Cynthia....
Message:
although I can't speak for him, I believe Oliver may have been reacting to Jim's unnecessarily abusive attack on Carol, but I couldn't stand reading it all, it was too upsetting.
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:16:48 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I hope some psycho client cutz your balls off.
Message:
And I mean that sincerely arsehole!
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 15:38:18 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: But since you have a campaign going today
Message:
fuck it,

at least when jim has a go, he explains why he's doing so, at least a little.

Oliver, don't you think you're likely to be starting more tribal warfare of the sort you so desperately don't approve of, or is it you just want him banned?

Personally I've agreed with almost everything he's said in this thread, even if the tone is a little more in your face than it would be if I made the same points, maybe.

And last but not least, don't you see how much time he saves for those of us who have the same problems with the hallmark mentality, the KEY ingredient of gm's hard sell maquerading as soft.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:56:44 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Absolutely not...
Message:
I truly hope you get all you ask for. For the good stuff of life!
But also be careful what you ask for, because maybe by your asking for things that do not benefit your developmental growth, as a human being, (or the growth of other people you are in contact with) you will hit a wall that inspires you to go another more positive and beneficial direction!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 21:17:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Fuck off with that shit, will you?
Message:
Carol,

I don't need you to tell me to 'be careful what I ask for' or anything of the sort. Who do you think you are anyway? The Wise Woman of the Woods, or something?

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:20:10 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fuck off with that shit, will you?, and hand me...
Message:
....the bottle. I'm not quite shit-faced yet.
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 02:14:29 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yup, sometimes I am the Wise Woman of the Woods!nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 02:38:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: OK, Yoda, here's some unsolicited advice for YOU
Message:
But also be careful what you ask for, because maybe by your asking for things that do not benefit your developmental growth, as a human being, (or the growth of other people you are in contact with) you will hit a wall that inspires you to go another more positive and beneficial direction!

If you like, you can safely ensconce yourself in some new-age fantasyland, sugar-plum fairies and all. Everyone 'growing' (developmentally, of course), inspired and positive, going off in all directions (beneficial, that is). Or you can quit navel-gazing and do something productive (besides 'working on yourself', I mean).

Whatever you do, remember that newage thinking is deadly for the mind. Be careful to not infect any of the people you're in contact with.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:25:19 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OK, Arsehole, here's a quote for you, PRICK!!!
Message:
Your opponent, in the end, is never really the player on the
other side of the net, or the swimmer in the next lane, or
the team on the other side of the field, or even the bar you
must high-jump. Your opponent is yourself, your negative
internal voices, your level of determination.
--- Grace Lichtenstein
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 16:53:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Take your meds and go for a walk (nt)
Message:
jjjjjjjj
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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 20:48:06 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim's sarcasm reveals his predudice against...
Message:
people who have issues with mental diagnosis or differences in needs.
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 18:19:19 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Keep a check on your stigma controlled mind.......
Message:
....you would'nt be a lawyers arsehole.

Or don't you canutes have discrimination laws yet?

Forum fucking bully arsehole.

~~Oliver

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 18:46:29 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: I think u2 need to chill out a bit
Message:
This is turning to be a slug match mouthing competition, not sure what it's serving, but I think not much.
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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 11:47:20 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Now come on Salam........
Message:
.....you taught me all I know.
.
.
.
:)))
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 20:42:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Thanks, Salam, I was really losing it there (nt)
Message:
fffff
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 15:42:39 (GMT)
From: Lee Westwood
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Hear it Tiger Woods, you're finished (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 15:47:10 (GMT)
From: Saddam Hussein
Email: None
To: Lee Westwood
Subject: Yeah hear it George Bush, you're finished (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 09:37:39 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hmm...Productive? How about...
Message:
Hospice volunteering for 3 years now, managing the care and needs of my parents, advocating for the right placement for my special needs son in school (and getting it!)and helping in school, being a supportive friend to several local and distant friends, donating (with husband)to many humanistic charities for people who have less safety and material comfort and poorer health care.
Providing emotional support and help to three older sons and two grandchildren, facilitating reconciliation of estranged family members....

What do you know and what do you do that is so productive that you can judge me as doing less!

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 16:58:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: OH MY GOD, CAROL, I HAD NO IDEA!!!
Message:
Carol,

That is really FANTASTIC, all that good stuff you're doing.

I'm going to have a minute of silence.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 18:22:41 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I HAVE NO IDEAS!!! says canute legal clerk (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 14:24:04 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Hmm...Productive? How about...
Message:
Carol,
You brought up all these wonderful deeds last time you made a dumb post. It's great you do all those nice things but how about doing something nice here? Like say something that actually has some value. Something you've actually put some intelligence into, instead of barfing all that garbage you spew all over these pages.

Just because you do some nice things elsewhere doesn't give you the right to be an unadulterated, blithering fool here.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 04:54:03 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thank you for using the word, 'ensconce'.(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:14:57 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Carol
Subject: My take then I'll shut up
Message:
People are what they are; varied, disperate and no two the same. Nobody can change another person directly. If a person changes, they do it all by themselves.

Other people are invariably not how we want them to be. We can never change that. We can only be what we are and some will agree with our broadcast and some will not.

Hate, anger and resentment are just as valid as love and good feeling. Pretending the former doesn't exist or hoping it will somehow go away is just hiding from reality. Likewise, demonising the former or looking down upon it is looking at a two sided coin just one way.

In the Second World War, people risked (and lost) their lives because they were inspired by hate, anger and resentment of Hitler's atrocities. You don't storm a beach in Northern France with certain death facing you with love in your heart. The battle cry vent forth from soldiers at such times is one of pure hatred and anger. And yet you and I owe those people a debt of gratitude.

.. Dave

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 03:53:57 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: And I thought ...
Message:
And I thought that they fought for the love of freedom from those atrocities, not from hatred of brainwashed robots.
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 05:16:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Good one, Stonor!
Message:
'Brainwashed robots'?

Hey that's really cute. Too bad those poor soldier saps didn't have any real understanding of what life is all about. Good one. You nailed it, didn't you?

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 05:27:42 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's life all about Jim? (nt)
Message:
A chela for all gurus.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:21:52 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Don't shut up
Message:
You said:
*People are what they are; varied, disperate and no two the same. Nobody can change another person directly. If a person changes, they do it all by themselves.*

I agree, but who are we really? I believe us to be a living part of God or creation. Separate entities meant to act in the world and create changes for the greater good.

You said:
*Other people are invariably not how we want them to be. We can never change that. We can only be what we are and some will agree with our broadcast and some will not.*

Yes. We can also change *how* we think of another person and how we respond to them and to our memories of them. It takes practice to change away from thoughts of condemnation and hatred, but *we* benefit first and the most, when we succeed!

You said:
*Hate, anger and resentment are just as valid as love and good feeling. Pretending the former doesn't exist or hoping it will somehow go away is just hiding from reality.*

They are valid feelings that need to be processed, but it is not necessary to make them a permanent part of our experiece. Pretending is hiding from reality, but I know from my own experience and many others' stories, that a person really can move on from these feelings into a more whole life by embracing and nurturing their inner attributes of love and compassion and forgiveness; based on the acceptance and reality that none of us is perfect and we all have caused pain to others, at times.

You said:
* Likewise, demonising the former or looking down upon it is looking at a two sided coin just one way.*

I agree.

You said:
*In the Second World War, people risked (and lost) their lives because they were inspired by hate, anger and resentment of Hitler's atrocities. You don't storm a beach in Northern France with certain death facing you with love in your heart. The battle cry vent forth from soldiers at such times is one of pure hatred and anger. And yet you and I owe those people a debt of gratitude.*

Of course we owe them gratitude. But you presume to know that their actions were inspired by hate, anger and resentment. Maybe that was true for many, but I believe that the prime motivator for valor is/was/and will always be love of humanity and the protective defense of the victims of war, as well as of the prevention of further atrocities and world domination.

Don't shut up.
Love carol

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:37:01 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: OK I won't
Message:
I've spoken to veterans of the Falklands war who stormed the beaches there and what happens is that all 'nice' feelings go out of the window when they see their friends shot to pieces all around them and the expression, 'a shot fired in anger' then really does hold true.

It's not so much 'valour' that is the word I would use in such circumstances, 'Fear and anger' would better describe it.

You said, 'They are valid feelings that need to be processed'.

What is this, a cheese factory? You must lead a very complicated life. When I'm angry, I can't 'process' it - I'm just bloody mad!

I dunno where you get this idea that you can't be just what you are. You're gonna be, anyway, whether you try to process it or not.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:30:57 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: (Threatening Subject Deleted)
Message:
No, but it's a nice day dream.
:)))
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:49:20 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Oliver
Subject: FA - Very Uncool Threat - Please Delete nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:22:23 (GMT)
From: Cynthia-Scorpio-1
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: TO: Oliver and (FA please read this)
Message:
Oliver,

As self-appointed Chief of Security for EPO, US and Europe, you are hereby warned not to make any more threats to Jim or anyone else here.

If you have nothing productive to say here other than to insult, ridicule, and threaten people, you're leaving would be most appreciated.

That said, Oliver, KNOCK IT OFF!! The Forum Rules clearly say that threats are not allowed or you will be blocked....tread lightly, Oliver.

Sincerely,
Cynthia-Scorpio-1
Chief of Security, EPO, US/Europe

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 18:26:49 (GMT)
From: Ollie
Email: None
To: Cynthia-Scorpio-1
Subject: TO: Oliver and (FA please read this)
Message:
Then get it right!!!

Oliver responded:
No, but it's a nice day dream.
:)))

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 02:05:51 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: One more point. You did not get it with this:
Message:
You said:
*I dunno where you get this idea that you can't be just what you are. You're gonna be, anyway, whether you try to process it or not.*

I never said that or meant that. It is just that I was not happy with the way I was, so I changed how I thought which changed how I felt. Someone said, 'If you always do what you've always done, you always get what you've always got.' I took a new fork in the road. I learned how to do many things from help from other people as well as my own mucking around. Sometimes for awhile I followed other people on the road in front of me, sometimes I ventured way off the beaten path.

I think I've learned enough that I can help others, too. It is not a question of whether it is Ok for you to stay stuck in angry feelings but why on earth would you want to! I share the news of how I made/make changes that heal(ed) my heart and free(d) my mind. I am sorry it falls on some blind eyes, but some will see the good in it, I think.

I want to tell you how my changing perspective and practices made me act in the heat of the moment just last week. I got very angry at my sister for something she said she was going to do that was just plain wrong (to do with my parent's assets and some gift checks). The strongest language I used to express myself in a heated argument before hanging up the phone was:

'*If* you do that, *then* you are a bitch and I don't want to hear from you for weeks!'

When I thought about it later, I had to laugh when I saw how benign a threat it was. I did not outright call her a bitch, I said IF and, I did not say I never wanted to see or hear from her again, just for weeks! This was the real me expressing myself.

It took me a while to cool my jets then I slept a couple of hours, then I woke and put together all these collages of family pictures to send her (12 pages of them) for over two hours from 2:30 am to 4:30 am. Then I slept a couple more hours and woke and knew what I had to write to her. I sent a big package to her after printing up the pictures. I think I can prevent a permanent rift between us. So many families are divided by issues like money or past resentments and hurt. It is a shame, when it can be repaired with a change of perspective that focuses on love above all else.

Carol
A real live person/ not a vegetable!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:30:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Get real!
Message:
Of course we owe them gratitude. But you presume to know that their actions were inspired by hate, anger and resentment. Maybe that was true for many, but I believe that the prime motivator for valor is/was/and will always be love of humanity and the protective defense of the victims of war, as well as of the prevention of further atrocities and world domination.

Who's the presumptuous one, Carol? Where's your evidence? I'd say Dave has a lot -- every last war movie from that period, all of our grandfathers, etc. What you're doing is just peaking at the past through your new-age rose coloured glasses. Imagine, if you will, a conversation in a tank, foxhole, submarine or bomber. I'd like to see you edit it for hatred. Sounds peachy.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:38:35 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Calling Audie Murphy!!!
Message:
Now you are basing you drunken, irrational diatribes on fucking movies.

Give me a break.

Have you seen Gallippmsv[kpnbfom]dg\[p

Oh shit, what's the point. So much to say but so few hours left by courtesy of my ISP.

Fuck off back to the rock you were recently under. I loved it anf F5 thrived.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:09:35 (GMT)
From: Chris H
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Get real!
Message:
Dear client

This turkey sucks his own cock, such is the manner of his stupidity. More the fool who fails to realise the foolishness of his ways!

His undying adoration for all things scientific is interesting. He believes that all things scientific is sacred and and we must believe in them unquestioningly, but how then are we to expand this knowledge by critically testing and retesting what we believe to be science. The process of questioning, critically analysing and and more importantly forming 'beliefs'/ideas and testing them without the handicap of having to worship the pre-existing scientific modus -operandi is what science/knowledge is all about.

To use his 'flat world' analogy, I'm sure that we all thought the world was flat and believed this was science before some bright spark questioned the status quo. You see, we all construct the world in the parameters that have been entrenched in our culture under the auspices of science, until somebody retests the theories. However for those who have built a belief system about this adoration of science rather than scientific methods(important point!) there is too much cognitive dissonance for them when science is challenged so therfore it is better to cast aside any disputing evidence or opinion in order to propagate the belief system.

BTW what is this shit about someone being 'fully delusional', perhaps our ignorant friend would be better to constuct mental illness as a continuum rather than a simplistic notion of good/evil back/white, beautiful/ugly and sane/mad.

ccm

<<< Phil Garratt 8/ 9 4:28p >>>
The guy who posted the message below is a Canadian know-all facsist lawyer who is in the habit of forcing his unenlightened opinion down the throats of anyone who says anything he doesn't agree with. In the nicest possible way I told him he was a prick today and expect to wake up tomorrow and find that he has bored it up me. Have a read and see what you think of his ravings and let me know what you think I should fire back at him. If you have time of course.
Any word from the MHT?
BTW, had blood test this morning. Am interested in what the levels were.
Check out the attachments and tell me you've seen a better front. I won't believe you.
Cya

Chris,
I agree that science develops tentatively, although I also say that its core knowledge strengthens over time. Now, it too, can sometimes, surprisingly, revolutionarily even, be upset. But that's by far the exception. And when it does, the knowledge still settles after a while, perhaps slightly adujsted but even stronger than before. In other words, it becomes knowledge and not merely something ephemeral and up for grabs.

Psychiatry is a field of medicine which, to the extent that it bears scientific examination and study, is indeed a scientific enterprise. Psychiatric knowledge is scientific and it grows scientifically.

You talk about the virtue of 'upsetting the status quo' and use for example the fact that we once believed the Earth was flat. But remember, that belief was never scientific. It was just an old's wive's tale. There was no evidence the world was flat, just a lot of weird and colourful stories to that effect.

But where has scientific knowledge ever been overthrown like that? Nowhere I know. Yes, there have been some fairly radical prunings of the scientific Tree of Knowledge, I guess. Can't think of what exactly right now but I'm sure they exist. Why not?

But that doesn't mean that there isn't a sound Knowledge base. Like real stuff, you know?

Now, mental illness. Psychiatric disorder. What about it?

I'm sorry but I think that we know a HELL of a lot more about this stuff than we did even twenty or thirty years ago and that this is real Knowledge. In other words, it's not just fad theories, fad diagnoses and pop this or that. Psychiatry's much stronger than that.

And as for whether a person who's extremely delusional has the right to 'think for themself', well, I meant make decisions and no, I don't think they do have that right if they're fully delusional. Not at all, in fact.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 21:20:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Chris H
Subject: What the hell are you talking about?
Message:
Seems that you've got your wires crossed. Read the thread and consider relevance.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:41:45 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Chris H
Subject: Get bent!
Message:
Hey hiney hole!

Jim said 'extremely delusion' which infers a continuum. You quoted him as saying 'fully delusional.' There's a big difference. Seems like you have problem with the truth.

P.S. There's no such word as 'facsist,' asshole!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:00:18 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Who is fuzzy here, peach!
Message:
I refuse to entertainment argument with one who is so prejudiced.
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 18:29:30 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: I differ, I'll give him all the shit he deserves!!
Message:
...and then a bit more.

:)))

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 18:50:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: And you're being VERY effective
Message:
Oliver,

Quit acting like a child. If you actually think you're somehow persuading anyone about anything other than the fact that you have a hard time controlling yourself, think again.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 22:56:15 (GMT)
From: FuzzyNavel
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Who is fuzzy here, peach!
Message:
Hi Carol,

You should feel grateful to have had the greatest thinker of all time, Jim, read your post and offer his sincere criticism!

Stay Happy!

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 05:57:38 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: FuzzyNavel,Carol,Jim etal
Subject: ok! 'Timeout' from throwing the fruit... (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 21:21:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Was that a sentence, Carol? (nt)
Message:
ggggggggg
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 09:34:05 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Jim is a complete and utter arsehole (NT)
Message:
Canadian prick.
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:46:20 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Oliver
Subject: Canadian Pricks Are The Best
Message:
Notice I didn't say biggest.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:48:03 (GMT)
From: Observer
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Guess you struck a nerve, Carol! nt
Message:
Nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:00:19 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Observer
Subject: are you a 'real' observer, observer?
Message:
Oh,that was a really deep comment you just made. Whatever the fuck it's suppose to mean...

Personally I couldn't grok what Carol was saying, but I read Dave loud and clear.

So observer, you better alert the headquarters, the shit is about to hit the fan for your man, goober.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 14:04:14 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Just in case
Message:
we forgot


1- The car accident: has anyone investigated this any further? Are there any new evidences? MD, do you have anything else to say?

2- Jagdeo: anyone has contacted him and asked him if he has anything to add before we procced to chopping his dick off. Jim, not sure if you were around, Jagdeo phone number was posted on the forum, can you please call him for us. I will contribute 5 buck to the phone call.(p.s. Khan has the number).

3- Lard having sex with premie girls. When are they coming out to talk about it?

4- Lard drinking habbits. do we have any pics of him doing that?

5- Did Monica really had to have abortion? How many times. Can we find which hospital did that take place

6- What did the lard say in urdu to Fakir in the ashram?

7- Is Janice real, an EV agent or a self generating poem software? How can we shut her up?

8- Do we know yet if EV is breaking the law?

9- anything else you want to say.

Salam taking a piss at rawat. HE SUCKS, oh yeah.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 12:36:22 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Warning. You are under surveillance.
Message:
Hi and Happy New Year to all our readers.

I’ve been communicating with Phyllis- a honcho who recently quit the cult and for the moment wishes to remain anonymous. It was Phyllis who informed us that Jagdeos’ crimes were known about for years before he was eventually sent into exile.

Anyway, I asked Phyllis if there, was there any official party-line about the Forum and the Ex-premie sites. Here is her slightly edited reply.
“The ex site is feared, very much so, it has a lot of power and influence, just imagine if one of the up coming events was sabotaged in some intelligent way, (Phyllis then gives a couple of very creative suggestions). What do you think this would do to the machinery? The forum is watched daily by a dozen folk around the world.”

I wonder if the premie readers rotate their service, as I’m sure they must eventually reach a point where they are in danger of thinking for themselves again. Poor brainwashed gumps. It’s time to move on guys. Take a deep breath and have an honest look at yourself. Freedom beckons. It’s time to grow up and take responsibility for your life. The Golden Age came and went already.

Anth- harbinger of the age of disposable plastic pots.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 16:33:32 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Piss-off your favorite PAM!!
Message:
All PAM's and high-ranking premies are notified by the 'official' EV monitors when they are mentioned here (and they HATE being mentioned). While many EV'ers world-wide monitor this and all other ex-sites, at least one current 'official' report-generating monitor is here in the UK.
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 19:54:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Why Do They DO that?
Message:
Interesting.

When a PAM is mentioned, being thus informed by the official EV monitors, are they told to react to it in some way? What are they supposed to do with that information, because it seems that not one of them has the courage, conviction, stamina, intelligence or balls to come onto the forum and face his or her accusers. They seem to just cower in the background. In that case, since they seem incapable of engaging in an open discussion about what they believe, why does anyone bother to tell them they are being discussed?

For example, David Smith, Randy Prouty, Marcia Leitner, Terry Yingling, Anne Johnston, Brian McDermott, Linda Gross, Sharon Stokke, Yoram Weiss, Jonathan Crainer, Glenn Whittaker, Joan Apter, Andy Perl, Padarthanad, Booth Dyess, Peter Potter (wasn't he a character from Grimms Fairy Tales?) and others, all of whom I believe are still active participants in Elan Vital, have all been discussed here with varying amounts of disdain (as well as with some fond words (some of them)). Do you mean to say they have been contacted EACH TIME they are talked about on the forum? And what are they supposed to do with that information?

Has Jagdeo been notified about the hundreds of times he has been mentioned here because he is accused of having engaged in child sexual molestation while an employee of, and full knowledge of, Elan Vital?

Come to think of it, is Maharaji notified every of the hundreds of times he has been talked about as a liar, a fraud, a sexual predator, a drunk, and the user of illegal substances? I would think he would get fairly long reports. Maybe they just give HIM an 'Executive Summary.'

Do you know?

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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 13:35:34 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Why Do They DO that?
Message:
Hi Joe,

I still have contact with a few old premie PAM pals and full-time officials- although the active ones have asked me to respect certain conditions- which I do- usually- don't let anyone know we're talking, or- we don't discuss anything to do with the cult.

Anyway, I did mention one of my friends a while ago. I was contacted by this person and asked not do do it again.

I also remember Ron Jeaves was sacked from his cult job because he had a telephone conversation with Jethro, which Jeth' mentioned on the forum.

My saddest premie friends are those who, after many years of what I thought was close friendship, have broken contact with me.

The worst are those with full-time positions. One friend, who lived with us for several months after her boyfriend kicked her out, went for lunch with me after I published my journey and left the cult. We had a long conversation about the cult and the Lard. In the end I could sense she was becoming uncomfortable- so we agreed not to discuss the topic again, as it was a possible threat to our relationship.

The next thing I heard, was that she'd rethought things and didn't want to see me any more. She didn't have the courage to tell me directly, and I haven't spoken to her since. The wierdest thing of all, this close friend of many years, broke off our friendship because of things I'd written on the forum that she hadn't even read.

Someone who I once had a lot of respect for turned out to be a cult nerd.

Ah well...maybe one day she'll stop denying the obvious and take control of her life again.

Anth the optimist

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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 16:16:53 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Because they are lost
Message:
'I also remember Ron Jeaves was sacked from his cult job because he had a telephone conversation with Jethro, which Jeth' mentioned on the forum.'

I don't think Ron(Geaves) was sacked he told me whe would resign.
Ron and the friend you mention are totally owned by their image(s) of prempal. I am sure they are still trapped by being one of the 'first group of Western premies' whatever HE told them all those years ago. They really think they are something special.
I remember in my ashram years how PAMs like them were very complacent about the ashram..as if they were above the rules.

One day when I was in Leeds ashram Ron came to stay or he was on tour of some sort. He totaly freaked when the housefather just gave him a couch to sleep on and said that he shouild be given more respect...blah...blah...blah.

I would have more respect for people like these if they were honest about what they believed.

Anyway, hope all going well for you in Europe(be careful of tyhe French).

GRegard Jethro

PS I won my court case against my former employers. The Judge declared me a 'sincere and honest person'...so there!!!

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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 20:26:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Congratulations, Jethro!
Message:
Way to go, bud. Excellent work!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 23:45:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Questions for Phyllis
Message:
Anth,

Does Phyllis know what the dozen or so official 'watchers' of the ex-premie forum do with the results of their 'watching?' Do they write reports? Do they phone is information? Does Phyllis know? What are they looking for? Anything in particular? Are they given instructions on what to do? Does Phyllis know who any of the official 'watchers' are?

Does she know what happened to Terry Yingling?

What do they think of Pauline Premie and Curious George, not to mention Ted Farkel?

Is there any effort to get premies to refrain from posting, or even peaking here?

Just why does Elan Vital think this website has a lot of 'power and influence?' Do they really believe it might encourage 'sabatoge?' Am I the only one who thinks that's paranoid nonsense?

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 12:38:10 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Answer from Phyllis
Message:
Hi Joe,

Phyllis mainly had contact with the PR team in the US. She told me they monitor this site daily. She also said that several National Contacts around the world also monitor the site regularly.

She also said that one of the considerations when planning an event is what is happening on the Ex- sites, and will it effect the proceedings.

She said we can probably work the rest out for ourselves.

Anth the channel for a higher power.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 14:09:59 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: What I understand from their policy
Message:
is that they're still lobotomized and playing little soldiers !

IF we're about to do something, we're not going to expose it on the forum !! And we've already done a few things ..... wait until they see the result !!

Hahahaha ....

I still can't understand how they can be THAT STUPID !!! OK, these guys are in a cult, but they're not that stupid.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 15:58:09 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I'm not so sure Jean-Michel,
Message:
don't think it's because they lack intelligence,
they've just completely forgotten how to think,
all those years of being invisible I reckon,
and now the grace no longer protects them.

Suspect they're completely at a loss,
in their little fantasy land,
suddenly finding
reality breaking in

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:00:06 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Oh yeah, with k you know so much more
Message:
than anybody else !!!

And you are so much wiser ...... I forgot about that one !!!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 22:12:08 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: those 'creative suggestions' are..........?-nt
Message:
sdfh
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 20:18:50 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: AJW
Subject: Hey, EV Monitors can you pass a note for me?
Message:
I've got some friends inside...

Please tell Arelene S., John K., Carter H., Sandy B., and Ilene W. that they are missed and loved.

I'll be waiting for each one of you when you finally get out.

Hang in there. We're doing everything we can to get you out, but the warden and the guards are pretty clever.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:22:45 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Warning. You are under surveillance.
Message:
In case they are confused, I am the one in the bright canary long sleeve shirt, navy blue cargo shorts and bare feet.

Oliver listening to Mose Allison.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 14:57:55 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The Beautiful World beyond the Cult
Message:
That's one reason why I (and others) continue to post about the wonderful world of the Spirit. Admittedly, many ex-premies drop the idea of God and Guru like a hot potato upon leaving the cult.

However, I think it is important for premies to know that for many of us, spiritual growth only accelerates upon leaving the simplistic guru/disciple relationship taught (once explicitly, now implicitly) by Maharaji.

There are many teachers and schools of growth far more effective, thought-provoking, and ecstasy-enhancing than Maharaji and the Four Techniques.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 14:55:34 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: usual
To: AJW
Subject: Warning. You are under surveillance.
Message:
Hi old pals at EV
1. Remember we stood in shoes similar to yours once.
2. There is no them and us.
3 We are all in this together and seperately
4. Hearsay tells me that there is shortly going to be a major expose and challenge to Maharaji and his operation.
5. Now might be the time to take stock of what you really think and not what is expected of you.
6. Duality is painful.
7. Come and talk to us...we are a mixed bag of saints and nutters..just like real life.
8, Intersting times ahead and don't miss out on the beauty and sadness of this world.
love
Tim
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:16:51 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Tell me more
Message:
4. Hearsay tells me that there is shortly going to be a major expose and challenge to Maharaji and his operation.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 00:30:17 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Salam
Subject: Tell me more
Message:
Hi Salam
Maybe I could explain better off-line.
Best wishes from Erin's green shores,
Tim
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 03:13:05 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: Tim G
Subject: Tell me more offline
Message:
then. That's my e-mail
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:02:04 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Tell me more
Message:
Hi Salam,

There's definitely another Jagdeo article in the pipeline, but we don't want to reveal which magazine is going to publish it yet. The last time this happened there were threats of legal action against the newspaper. (The cult told the paper that Jagdeo had been employed by Divine Light Mission, which had no connection to Elan Vital. Ha ha ha.)

Anyway Salam, watch this space. (I don't know if Tim G is talking about the same article.)

Anth (who has no connection whatsoever with anybody, and if you suggest I have I'll sue you. Ha ha ha.)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 14:14:07 (GMT)
From: deep mole
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You're cheating
Message:
That is not what you told me.

But I wonder where they get all the premies to do so?(rotate)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:56:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: deep mole
Subject: What?
Message:
Hey deep mole,

What did I tell you and when? Why am I cheating?

And obviously, I couldn't have told you anything that Phyllis just told me, because I only found out today myself.

If you get my drift.

Anth firmly rooted in time and space

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Date: Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 06:28:26 (GMT)
From: deep mole
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: What?
Message:
Am so deep, you don't even know when you're talking to me.


HA ha ha.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:00:39 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: AJW
Subject: What?
Message:
Anth, could you e-mail me?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 06:48:49 (GMT)
From: suchabanangelo
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: We ARE SATsang here,rescuing lost souls! Peace (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 22:10:44 (GMT)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: suchabanangelo
Subject: We ARE SATsang here,rescuing lost souls! Peace (nt
Message:
Angelo, from Canada?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:20:58 (GMT)
From: suchabananer
Email: None
To: suchabanangelo
Subject: POLL:This is our 'Service'-- or not? EVERYONE! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:35:25 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: suchabananer
Subject: POLL:This is our 'Service'-- or not? EVERYONE! (nt
Message:
You have my vote.

And as they say in Queensland Labor Party circles, 'Vote early and vote often'

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 19:44:40 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Or like they're saying in the USA:
Message:
click here

/
/
/
/
/
/

BTW, did you get the problems with your email sorted? My mailbox is so full, I'm having trouble getting back to people who need me!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:58:12 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Well, I got a lot of people into this and...
Message:
I do experience a certain heartfelt urge to help people out. So I vote 'yes' but not with MJ's definition of service.

'Do service all day and all night if you can' (old premie song from England).

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 06:46:30 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Jean
Subject: K.K. and Peter Potter
Message:
Dear Jean,

I just went over to your site and read K.K.'s postings for the very first time. I have been on this site a couple of years and must have just missed them. by the way K.K. if you are still out there I really enjoyed your posts.

I also knew Peter Potter in London and have seen him fairly recently still 'doing the books' for M and looking pretty happy with himself. He was an excellent guy. The mind boggles he could stilll be involved in all this Elan Vital money making for M as related by K.K.

Anyone know how things are going for him now?

Curious George

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 11:22:02 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Jean's site
Message:
CG,
how do I get to Jean's site?
Happy Heretic
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 04:25:07 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Two anecdotes
Message:
Recently I emailed an old premie friend, Tiger, in England whom I have known for many years and told him that I was 'parting company with the perfect master.'

Tiger emailed back to say: 'I'm afraid Pussy (Tiger's ex-wife; I introduced them to each other) saw your message to me about renouncing the chubbster - and she fired off some fire breathing response to you, but it came back as undelivered. Sorry about that. Thank Christ we're not muslims - she'd have us all in the Taliban before you could say jihad.'

Now, to understand this better, you have to know that Pussy was one of the people with whom I was living in a commune. In 1972, half of the people left to go to India to see the Lard. They came back with amoebic dysentery and hepatitis but they were beaming. Their vibes were crystal clear and sweet. The other half of us of liked satsang and got Knowledge. Pussy was one of my diksha-mates. We all still know each other and have kept in touch for the past 28 years.

Well, a little while later Pussy's jihad did arrive. It was cool and I quote:

'I'm spending an evening with my daughter at Tiger's and he let me read your email. You don't have to send me a long email explaining your reasons for whatever it is you are about to do re Knowledge and Maharaji. I probably wouldn't read it. (I don't mean that to be disrespectful, but your experience is your experience and not that interesting to me) I could quote all the 'wonderful experiences' you have shared with me but that wouldn't really be interesting to you either. I have complete trust in Maharaji because he always comes
through for me and perhaps some of the things he does I don't understand why he did them but he has taught me how to love and he never stops giving. I hope your well and the business is going well for you.'

I replied:

'Dear Pussy,

I am not giving up Knowledge. I am simply no longer going to give Maharaji any more time or money. He has enough already. He no longer needs me and I no longer need him. And I won't go into a long explanation because, as you so rudely but time-savingly (thanks) pointed out, you 'won't read it anyway.'

Kriya Yoga (what M calls 'Knowledge') is as old as the hills and has been taught for centuries or more. Hundreds of Rahdasoami gurus teach it in India and two in the US. Some people also need guru-worship or bhakti yoga. I don't.

I'm more comfortable being a democrat. We are all equal and Knowledge is a democracy for me not some retro-feudalistic master-servant fantasy. They worship gurus and cows in India not the west. In the west we eat cows and require gurus to abide by the laws of democratic decency.

I'm sorry you adopted the church-lady tone of voice with me because it made me go cold all over and the coldness may have shown up in what I have said. I may have chilled our friendship to the bone.'

Of course I now regret having been so cold to her myself but I'm rash and always go to far.

On a heavier note. One of the aspirants in this community just committed suicide. I did not know him well as he was part of the new 'aspirant program' with 'propagation packages' which gave me the screaming-meamies. He had recently 'had a talk' with two of the premies. He said he felt that M was a conman. The premies told him that he was just confused. He jumped off the roof of the apartment house where his mother lived. When I heard about 'the talk' he had had with the premies I wrote him a letter to tell him to trust his own instincts because they were absolutely true. I did not have his address and I would have had to ask 'the premies' to give the letter to him and I did not trust them to deliver it. He probably thought the 'Master' was going to save him but why the hell did it have to take five months of watching videos twice a week. I hope it is true that only the good die young because he was only 22 and should have been out raving on ecstasy instead watching videos of a grown man who should know better behaving as irresponsibly, insouciantly and solipsistically as a kindergarten show-off.

'Dear Wadi and Daya,
Please tell your dad to stop making false promises to other peoples' kids. He's reaping lots of bad karma with his silly little games.

Sincerely,

Thelma The Thunderstealing Bitch'

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:19:39 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: all
Subject: apologies
Message:
After a sleepless night I need to set the record straight now about the suicide of an aspirant in this community. I should not have raised the subject. My only excuse is that I had too much wine at dinner and had been reading the forum all afternoon and was feeling exhilirated by the freedom and intelligent humor which I found here. I acted rashly.

Bazza the Clown has attempted to bully me into revealing what town this took place in but I will not reveal it for two reasons. This is a small community where I have known most of the handful of premies for over 20 years. I have to continue living here and making a living here. Bazza does not.

Secondly, as much as I would like to see the media make a fool of Mooraji over this, I know they will not be able to. The person responsible for the aspirants was not trusted by the local church-ladies. He was a 'returning' premie, someone who had dropped out of the cult and come back many years later. He was 'propagating' Knowledge to the local enclave of unreconstructed hippies living on the dole.

The local church-ladies did not know how to deal with him. He had attracted more aspirants in a few months than they had in years (if ever) but he dealt drugs from his house and, like Rip van Winkle, lived in the far off days of premiedom when he personally knew Mooraji. He preached the whole reincarnation of Krishna crap and his stoned hippie hindu friends sucked it up.

The church-ladies can rightly claim that he was not acting in 'synchronization' with their politically correct ways of propagating; that there were drugs involved and that he was actually one of the 'lone Rangers' of whom Mooraji disapproves. They will also say that the suicidal aspirant was not an official aspirant because he was 'mentally disturbed' and had recently gotten out of hospital after a failed attempt at suicide.

I know these people, the local church-ladies, and they will soon forget that they had welcomed back the returning premie thrilled to fill their dwindling ranks. They will brush it all off as the result of drugs and someone NOT obeying Mooraji. They will say that he and his friends are a bunch of nuts claiming all sorts of mental illness in order to live on the dole. They will not say that they rubbed the hands with glee when they finally had some aspirants because in fact the whole thing was a bit of a nightmare to them and they were definitely in two minds about it.

The only person who will be hurt by an expose will be the mother and she is an innocent bystander. So let's drop it. I'm sorry I brought it up.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:18:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: apologies
Message:
Thelma,

Even if the 'renegade, drug-dealing hindu-hippie' was the guy that stoked the poor kid's flames, it doesn't sound as if the 'church ladies' did anything at all to put it out. Sounds, in fact, like they were all working hand in hand.

But then of course if this is YOUR story, you alone are the abitrer of who should be able to figure this out for themselves.

Now WHO's the 'fascist'?

No, really, no one's a fascist here and you owe Barry a big apology. Maybe you can't see it but that's just your problem.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:09:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: God!
Message:
Thelma,

That's so bad. I wonder, is there any reason why this kid should remain anonymous? The whole cult community in your town will know what happened. Like Barry, I wish we knew too so we could do something, anything, about it. Yes, this calls for a fast report to the press.

It also could well call for some fast legal action on the poor kid's family's part. A number of us knew many other premies and aspirants who killed themselves over Maharaji. I know I did. But it's only over the lasrt few years that there was ever any informed, vocal opposition to this cult. This is one scandal the cult should not be able to brush under the rug.

Fuck!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:00:37 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is your email broken?
Message:
Tried to email you but it bounced back. If you changed it can you post it here or emial me?

thanks

barry

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:31:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Is your email broken?
Message:
No, not that I'm aware of.

But try:

jamesheller@home.com

if you were trying the other.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:04:15 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Is your email broken? NO
Message:
Not that I know of but it is hotmail which has been going down regularly since it switched from BSD to windows. I'll check.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:06:45 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: That was a Q to Jim, I got yours OK Thelma NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 05:37:45 (GMT)
From: sushibanana
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: 'Pussy's jihad'...'In the West we eat cows' Oi (nt
Message:
i m a cunning linguist, at heart...
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 05:31:32 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: Thelma
Subject: Suicide
Message:
Thelma thats terrible news about that poor young man committing suicide. Would you mind saying (email me if you prefer) the location where this happened, I'd like to see what the local press had to say, if anything.

thanks

Barry

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 06:02:37 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Suicide
Message:
The press doesn't know about it because it just happened. I got a phone call a couple of hours ago. I had to hang up on the asshole who told me. He is one of the premies who tried to tell the kid that he would outgrow his doubts. I have just emailed this letter to him:

'Dear Darshan Drip, (obviously not his real name)

I was shocked at your ridiculous 'spiritual' stoned hippie-hindu cliches when telling me about O's suicide. You are so full of shit. You filled O's head with a bunch of reincarnation-of-Krishna crap and darshan dreams. This is the letter that I was going to send O.

'Dear O,

The Darshan Drip has told me that you have doubts and think Maharaji is a conman because it takes so long to get Knowledge. Bruce also told me that he and Bill assured you that they were also confused when they were your age and that things would become clearer.

But please trust your doubts. It seems as if you think Knowledge is a magic potion that will solve all your problems and that Maharaji maybe is the Perfect Master who can save you. So why has he not saved you yet? And why does it take five months to get Knowledge? That's because you are being brainwashed into thinking that he is more than a human being. But he is only a human being and he can't save you and yes, he is conning you.'

I did not send it to him because I did not have his address and I would have had to give it to you and I did not trust that it would get to him.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 06:50:16 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: This is such a sad story
Message:
I've spent a few hours this evening reading account of the Jonestown tragedy , then come home to read about this poor young man who is the latest victim to be deceived by a cult. I sincerely hope the Press get the full background story on it. Can you at least tell us what town this happened in? I assume you don't want to give his name out of consideration for relatives and friends etc, but I'm sure many of us would like to follow up on this.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:11:07 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: This is such a sad story
Message:
Right now I just want him to rest peace and I don't want to think about it. Instead I ahve been catching up on some of the latest posts and laughing my eyes out. Oh we are so lucky to have this forum. It should be mandatory reading for all the poor sucker aspirants out there. I know I will let everyone know about it.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:21:21 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Hmmmmmmm
Message:
Yes well, nice that you are able to brush it off so easily.

Hmmmmmm

Why are the hairs on the back of my neck twitching?

What do you think Jim? Is this kosher?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:25:30 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Hmmmmmmm
Message:
If I were brushing it off easily I would begin yakking bullshit right now. I don't want to brush it off and I need to think about it before I talk about it.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:31:17 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: Thelma
Subject: Well I agree with Jim
Message:
We don't want his mother to become another 'bicycle widow', fobbed off with some paltry cash back-hander from the cult clean-up squad. If this really happened, tomorrow the forum will be full of reports from ex's who live in that community anyway, so let's scoop it shall we? You can email me or Jim if you're feeling shy.

Just give us the town where he lived. What harm would that do?

PS You said elsewhere that you might know hamzen? Well I'm from the same neck of the woods as him, same era almost, do we know each other? Check your email, there;s a link to my website where you'll see my mugshot.

bazza aka
Barry Shaw

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:54:10 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: I'll tell the story when I want to
Message:
and how I want to and when I want to. It is not unimportant but neither is it as important as you seem to think it is. I want to deal with it in my own way. It's not a simple story about a suicide but a longer story about the fucking fantasy world premies are living in. I know all the people involved and still have to deal with them and I live here. You don't.

I did look at your website mugshot and no, I don't remember you but, if you were one of the ashramees, then I probably didn't move in your circles unless you were one of the honchos who smoked dope with me in the alleyway behind the sahram and traded blowjobs.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:24:11 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: But its not about you Thelma
Message:
but neither is it as important as you seem to think it is

Are you serious? Are you fucking kidding me? You casually dropped this story in the second part of your post starting this thread, about a young man who took his own life YESTERDAY because of disillusionment with the cult leader maharaji, now you're trying desparately to change the subject and say how nice and jolly and fucking happy this place is, did we ever smoke dope and give each other blowjobs....and that THIS ISNT AS IMPORTANT AS I THINK????...something is very, very wrong here.

Nobody is expecting a bloody epic tale from you, explaining the background and all that, just one simple fact so your information can be verified, that's all.

The location.

Jim or I will contact the local PD and find out the rest.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:51:03 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Bazza the clown
Subject: But its not about you Thelma
Message:
Then who is it about? You - the security guard of the anti-cult cult? Sounds just like what the local church-ladies would say: 'But, it's not about YOU. It's about what Mooraji wants.'
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:38:25 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: you sound like a fucking fascist
Message:
Has anybody checked up on you lately, Bozo?
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 04:58:57 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Bazza's cool. Why the over-reaction?
Message:
Bazza's request for more info looked innocuous to me - and natural enough given you started a thread to raise the subject of an aspirant suicide. And your reluctance to give further details is understandable too if it's about protecting family or whatever. But Bazza a bully or fascist? - no way...

(Perhaps you two could discuss this further by email if the subject is sensitive for whatever reason?)

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 09:17:45 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Bazza's a true gentleman
Message:
It was hot tempers and we have kissed and made up. I understand his conscientiousness completely.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:59:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: I can't believe you're saying this, 'Thelma'
Message:
First, it sounds as if you might be posting under a second fake name which, as you should know, is bullshit and verbotten here. (And don't start calling ME a fascist, please. It's a house rule and there's a good reason for it which no one should have to spell out for you.)

But your reaction to Barry really casts all sorts of doubt over your story. Barry's right, this isn't your story. If it's true it's a terrible, ugly news event of extreme relevance to all the exes and premies. The press should know about this, about the whole story which really could have an incredibly sobering affect on premiedom. And I should think that timeliness is important for two reasons: we need to know you're right about this and, sorry, some anonymous poster's word without any confirmatory details doesn't cut it. Not for something like this. Also, the press' interest might also be inversely proportional to the currency of the report.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:46:26 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Bazza the clown
Subject: PS
Message:
Were you one of those bullies who walked around doing security at the palace of peace in 1974 dressed in secondhand suits from thrift shops looking like little jumped up hitlers or bus conductors? It's a wonder you didn't say; 'We haf vays of making you talk!' Go fuck yourself, your jerk. And don't ever try to bully me again.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 09:03:41 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Bozo the clown
Subject: PPS to Bozo the clown
Message:
Just got your latest email and I do understand what you are after but I started this thing in the wrong way. It was mixed up with my satirical online persona as the thunderstealing bitch and I need to discuss it separate from that. My mistake and I am taking the consequences for it by being brow-beaten by a silly schoolyard bully like you.

I looked at pic just one more time to see if I know you and yes I do. You were one of the drippy little divine clones. I see you have 633 hits to your site - 2 of which are mine. How many years did it take you to rack up such impressive hit statistics? My porn site had more than that last night.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 15:37:50 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Why this reaction when I just asked for the truth?
Message:
The problem is simply that I suspect you made the whole thing up, which is why I was asking for the simple detail of where this suicide took place. That's all.

All the rest comes across as smokescreen from you - totally changing the subject and drawing the attention away from yourself and onto me. Which is pretty ludicrous because there's no mystery surrounding me - I used my real name here right from the start and give people the chance to see my pic online so ,like you said, they can tell if they knew me or not.

So rather than pull the thread even further away from the issue by countering all the nonesense you wrote about me, I'll make one last simple statement then leave it up to the rest of the people here to decide for themselves:

You told a very sad story about a person who committed suicide yesterday in your community, but when asked for the simple detail of where this was, proceeded to backpedal rapidly and in fact started to get angry with me for repeating the question, ending up by calling me a 'fascist' and a 'bully'. I have to say that now I think you lied about the whole thing - if it turns out you were telling the truth of course I will apologise, but as it stands, it appears to me you made a very cruel and bizarre story up for what?? Attention?? Reaction?? A product of your satirical online persona? Either way I'll find out - I've put in a call to one of my buddies at CNN who's going to keep an eye on the wires. Suicides -especially dramatic ones where a person jumps off the top of a building ALWAYS make it to the wire, regardless of whether there is another hook, like a cult connection. On top of that, news is bound to permeate through the premie grapevine and end up being corroborated by other ex-premies. So we'll see.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 06:20:34 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: I want
Message:
to see you picture...

what link?Sisters and brothers in recovery.

THE LOCATION PLEASE Stands, if true. I agree. To stop Lardo and to stop other from dying is more important. The mother can understand that easily.

:)

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:15:27 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: sb
Subject: I'll email it, drop me a line NT
Message:
fvkje
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:06:05 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: PS Thelma I just emailed you NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 07:23:09 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: PS Thelma I just emailed you NT
Message:
I just read your email. I will keep the contact that you gave me in mind when I feel like thinking and writing about this waste of life. Hi Barry,

I don't want this kid's poor mom to suffer. It only happened this afternoon and I only found out about 3 hours ago. The story is pretty complicated and I would love to use it against Mooraji but the fact is that I have found out that the kid had a history of attempted suicides and was a few sandwichews short of a picnic before he got suckered.

If it generates enough interest I may tell the whole story but it's quite long and involved. It's also such a downer and the ex-premies right now seem to be in such a happy mood. I hate to piss on their party.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:24:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: I disagree, Thelma
Message:
I don't want this kid's poor mom to suffer. It only happened this afternoon and I only found out about 3 hours ago. The story is pretty complicated and I would love to use it against Mooraji but the fact is that I have found out that the kid had a history of attempted suicides and was a few sandwichews short of a picnic before he got suckered.

Maharaji and his crew should and must know, from past experience alone, that fragile people could react disastrously to his poisonous, anti-mind rhetoric. I'm sure mom is suffering plenty and I can't imagine how our knowing about this could ever make it worse. Indeed, if anything I'd suspect the contrary. I'd think an angry, distraught mom might well want to know more about the cult and just how it could have been, if nothing more, the proverbial last straw in her son's life.

As for the party .... you're kidding right?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 12:00:37 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Thelma
Subject: Shortcomings must be revealed
Message:
Suicides happen. They're an unfortunate statistical reality. Obviously, one cannot blame Maharaji directly for this tragic suicide. But the cult does have shortcomings and one of those is luring people into believing that Maharaji can save them. This is a fools paradise. Because when an unstable person then realises that Maharaji won't save them, they are often worse off than before they heard about him.

I think these shortcomings need to be brought to light. I don't think the suicide you mention is a scandal to hit the cult but I do think it once again, reveals how inappropriate is Maharaji's cult in helping people who are seriously disturbed. Such disturbed people might be better off talking to their local churchman or practically any understanding normal person who is not in a cult.

By seeking help from Maharaji's cult, they are opening themselves up to further confusion. And that could be the last straw which breaks the camel's back.

This said, it is not the premies' fault either that this man killed himself. They, with their strange 'programmed' philosophy are unable to help such disturbed people. Who could have helped him? Perhaps there was nobody or if there was, he hadn't found them. Unfortunately, now after the event, there will be people wishing that they had done something more to help him.

That's always the case but nobody can take direct responsibility for a person's suicide because it always is one last straw which does it and nobody can see what is going on inside that unfortunate person's head unless he/she can speak out and ask for help.

.. Dave

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:48:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I completely disagree, Dave
Message:
Suicides happen. They're an unfortunate statistical reality. Obviously, one cannot blame Maharaji directly for this tragic suicide.

I think you're way off on this one. Even if Maharaji's mind-fuck was 'just' a substantial contributing factor to the kid's suicide, he could and should be held morally and legally responsible. In other words, so long as the cult's pressure was more than just a trivial part of the kid's desparation, Maharaji is liable. It's the old 'take-your-victim-as-you-find-him' rule, otherwise commonly known as the 'thin-skull' rule. If this poor guy freaked out because of Maharaji's fraud and his were in any way foreseeable, Maharaji's on the line.

So, was it foreseeable that some people might commit suicide in their confusion over Maharaji's 'divinity' and how that affects their life and freedom? Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes. The cult doctrine is toxic and has already taken many other victims.

No, if this really happened, Maharaji's got blood on his hands, in my opinion. Again.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 06:27:08 (GMT)
From: sucha-wakeupcall!
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Merde! Lost another poor soul. Stiff Upper Lip (nt
Message:
Nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 06:29:54 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: sucha-wakeupcall!
Subject: How Many More sad souls, before... ? Peace (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:06:52 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: such
Subject: You're taking this lightly
Message:
I don't think this is a competition as to who gets to the line first. Remember there is a mother grieving for her son somewhere, maybe we can keep that in mind for a tic.

Salam

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 20:17:38 (GMT)
From: suchabongo
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: It's unfortunate whenever Anyone commits suicide
Message:
In retrospect, today, I agree with you, Salam. Sometimes we post things quickly, without time for full reflection, perhaps? da lil' swami, too.

Sometimes, too, all this bad stuff being uncovered may cumulatively tend to make some people a bit more hardened, guarded, less trusting, and cynical, as well as feeling degrees of alienation.

I've been trying to be much lighter and briefer about writing stuff lately, because I have also been going through a lot personally -- involving my longtime friendships with a number of premies.

Yes, It's unfortunate whenever ANYONE commits suicide. I have known several people who killed themselves, and numerous others who are simply doing it more slowly. [At the saddest and darkest moments of my life, the thought even crossed my own mind briefly - once or twice.] My girlfriend from Melbourne had come to m. and kn. with slashed wrists. This raises a question -

Q: Was this aspirant having PRIOR emotional distress before coming to m.'s video programs? Over the years, there have been MANY people who were previously experiencing emotional problems, suffering from severe depression, mental illness, etc., well before they began to attend programs.

Therefore, can it be fully established that the aspirant's cult introduction was the direct cause precipitating and responsible for the suicide? What else was happening in that person's life? I've been around too many premies with slashed wrists or histories of mental/emotional illness -- retaining clear traces and scars of underlying emotional problems they brought with them to kn.

I'm definitely not defending the cult, Salam, but like Jim, I'm just trying to be objective. I happen to think that the cult belief system, as promulgated by m. and DLM/EVI (and as differentiated from the basic meditation techniques themselves) may be a contributing factor in exacerbating some people's feelings of worthlessness, confusion, mental torment, guilt, and also generate a negative, unhealthy, virtually nihilistic view of the physical world, society, and relationships. Since the person who committed suicide was allegedly an aspirant, one might question how or if the cult belief system played a role in what was obviously a sad and desperate final act.

Frankly, I found the correspondence between the 2 alleged friends to be offensive, insensitive, and bitter. Just speaking for myself (and nobody else here), I don't believe in airing one's more private correspondences or the private remarks written or said in a moment of anger between friends. So, my reaction to that distasteful correspondence precipitated a flippant response.
(Maybe the beer, too.)

After looking at the initial thread post again earlier today, I regretted having been so casual in my own (nt. I figured that someone would probably direct my attention to it again, since I was already feeling that way, too, by then. And here we are...

Peace,

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 03:43:29 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Thanks from Patrick Halley
Message:
Before Christmas I sent Patrick *the* Penthouse magazine with the Ken Kelley interview and a copy of the Lord of the Universe video, with love from all us ex-premies.

Got a letter back from Patrick today. I don't plan to post the whole letter, but here are a couple of snippets:


'Thank you so much for the magazine and for the video, they mean much to me. I never saved the countless magazine and newspaper articles about the pie-kill, and have regretted it now that I am 50. This helps much.

....

Since Fletcher and Fakiranand, I have had other people try to kill me numerous times, mostly in the taxi business, and have been shot at 4 times. At least, as far as the maharaji incident goes, I risked my self for a worthy cause: philosophical, existential, religious, psychological freedom. I would gladly hurl a pie at the pope, the Dalai Lama, the governor of Michigan, etc

....

Once again, thanks to you (and all the ex-premies) and let us all stay in touch, in some ways, I was the original ex-premie; after- all, I did go to a meeting, even if they did ask me to leave.

patrick halley

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 20:09:11 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: thanks TO Patrick Halley, and the Maha goes down
Message:
... in modern history as the first guru who just

couldn't prevent his followers

from taking revenge on the pie-thrower. (As if he really tried.)

.
.
.

Halley threw a custard pie at the Maha, and got his skull smashed in as a consequence. Says a lot about the Maha and his followers, IMO.

.
.
.

And, for the record, just how long did fakiranand stay with the maha before defecting to Satpal?

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 03:28:14 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: was guarding ashram phone during IHQ Denver calls
Message:
When Fakiranand et al did the little brainstorming session on Halley and then split Detroit afterwards - I was actually assigned to guard the Detroit ashram's downstairs telephone, to prevent any eavesdroppers or people picking up the receiver, during the confidential important calls with DLM hq regarding the organization's top-down instructions to Fakiranand and the DLM and ashram honchos present. Mahatma [Instructor] Fakiranand himself was waiting for these instructions outside in plainsclothes (not his usual saffron dhoti) by the getaway car during these phone calls.

At the time, I had no idea whatsoever about what was REALLY going on that day. It was like: Hey, brother, could you do this little service right now, please? -- we've got some Really important phone calls with DLM hq in Denver happening now. Make sure NO one, absolutely NObody, picks up this telephone until we're done, ok? Do you understand? NOBODY. Don't even let anyone get close to it, ok? etc.

In retrospect, DLM IHQ and Fakiranand and cronies were all lock-step on the same page...

Q: Who ordered the alleged hit? At the time, Fakiranand was a 100% loyal and obedient little trooper-fanatic of the boy-king [maha].

Peace,

PS I was the last person to speak with Fakiranand before he split in the car.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 05:06:54 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Patrick Halley: first ex-premie Hall of Famer! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:39:26 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The gift of the ashrams
Message:
Another confused ex-premie is ranting about the ashrams. I am just sooooo tired of hearing about this little, insignificant issue, which was nothing more than a cultural misunderstanding that lasted for what seemed about a week before Maharaji closed them and allowed each ashram resident the sublime participation of paying off the ashram debts. Maharaji was so loving and kind to think of his devotees in that way by always providing the gift of participation.

And if it weren't for the ashrams, thousands more people would have died in the drug culture. It's just so obvious how helpful they were in saving people, by the grace of the successful investor, and it's true, several state legislatures even recognized it. They really saw the gift of the ashram as what saved lives. God, you are such ingrates to not be thanking Maharaji for the wonderful thing he did for you, allowing you to live a celibate and drug-free life for all those years, without the complications of family, friends, careers, privacy or education.

Now, of course, there is no more 'drug culture' and so the ashrams aren't necessary. Maharaji was just so smart and kind to close them when he did. But do you ingrates have that appreciation of that gift and that love and that experience? No!

You ex-premies should get lives. I was thinking just that the other day, as I spent the afternoon writing poetry to be displayed on Enjoyinglife.org and later when I was doing participation by scrubbing the 3.5-mile driveway leading to the 32-car garage of the Master's delapidated residence.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 02:46:00 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: The gift of the ashrams
Message:
You are a jewel, darling. Your satire is pleasantly unpredicatble and dry and I look forward to more from you.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:29:24 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: hamzen@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Anyone have digital recordings of gm?
Message:
Have any of his recent speeches been put out in cd format?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:25:18 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: hamzen@hotmail.com
To: hamzen
Subject: A database of gm's words, 'blondes' especially
Message:
I have audio software that can make clean cuts of individual words in a speech. I would like to build up a database of words in his speeches.

Anyone who's interested in sending me mp3's of his speeches, but even cassettes, please contact me at the e-mail above

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 21:34:48 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: A database of gm's words,Synchronicity
Message:
Hi Ham, I think I can send mp3s. If I can't I'll soon find out how. I've got a lovely one of him mis-pronouncing 'synchronicity', He doesn't even know what it means!!!
Have cassettes, will e-mail you
love Kelly
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 16:00:55 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Good on yer Kelly (nt)
Message:
a
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:15:16 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Anyone have digital recordings of gm?
Message:
Dear Mr. ham,

Elan Vital appreciates your synchronized response and support, but we have to warn you that we will sue the beejesus out of you if you put Maharaji's copyrighted material on the internet. Ever hear of the mega-law-firm, Milbank, Weiss, et al.? They play rough, you know.

But Elan Vital believes you just want to do participation, so we want to point out that opportunities to do participation abound in our organization, which has no members and is not a cult, differing from a cult as it does in a number of significant ways which are too numerous to mention.

On our website, at www.elanvital.org, we have made available, through intensive teamwork without a traditional hierarchy but nonetheless synchronized, an application for doing participation, which is 33 pages long, requiring pages of detailed information about you, including a picture, so we can have you thoroughly checked out before we let you near anything that we don't want plastered all over creation.

We will want to know that enough students who have smart cards know, and can vouch for you. We need to know that you have that proper understanding. But please, do not get the impression that Elan Vital is paranoid. We have a policy that we are not paranoid, and that we have not been paranoid for quite some time now.

Elan Vital does, however, have a problem with your use of the words 'Lord' and 'Perfect Master.' Those are Hindu concepts that are very misleading to people and, we are afraid we will have to banish them from use while you are doing participation. We have a policy someplace about this, we are almost certain. It has only been by Maharaji's 'Herculean' effort that we have elimiated all those stupid Hindu concepts from Maharaji's organization so that at no one would ever think Elan Vital is a cult. Maharaji, who never claimed to be god nor utilized his folowers as prostitutes, has been supremely kind about doing this, since he wouldn't have to if he didn't want to, and could just stay up in his delapidated house in Malibu if he wanted to with his many important patented inventions, and just ignore us.

Why, Maharaji, who has refrained from having drunken orgies at his delapidated house for some time now, has come far in eliminating all the Hindu concepts. We at Elan Vital were reminded of this when we lined up in a fashion so synchronized it was almost beyond comprehension, and kissed Maharaji's feet, or, rather, showed gratitude, a couple of years ago in Australia at an event Elan Vital set up and then invited Maharaji to attend as a speaker. Kissing the feet of speakers is what many synchronized organizations do. There certainly was a lot of syncrhonized teamwork going on that day.

Elan Vital also has a policy to have a synchronized email address as follows:

ElanVital@wearenotacult/wereallyaren't.org

Please contact us and one of our teeming number of volunteers, on whom Elan Vital is dependant, will get right back to you, if you send a sizeable donation, in cash, in advance.

Thank you again for showing that understanding of that gift.

In Synchronicity,

ELAN VITAL: ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 16:20:11 (GMT)
From: hamzen onthe path of lov
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Elan Vital, talking to me, I am honoured
Message:
And I'd have to say, the first time ever.

I promise that the thought of using mr maha's (is that ok?) aural outpourings, on the net, never crossed my mind, I was thinking more of building up a database of words that HE (is that ok?) uses,
for passing round,
for sychronised educational purposes (is that ok?) only, you understand.

To be honest and come clean, it's all Turners fault,
reading his posts again has got me doubting myself all over again.
To come across such simplicity (is that ok?),
such an open and guileless heart, made me realize just how much my mind (is that ok?), has led me astray.

I had forgotten how simple and beautiful it all was around his grace (is that ok?), and wanted to hear HIS (is that ok?) dulcet ones in all their glory (is that ok?).

So are there any cd's around, you see I've been lost in the rotting vegetables for so long that only the perfect reproduction of his PERFECTION (is that ok?) can save me I suspect.

I would put myself forward for synchronization (see I'm learning), but the doubts still assail me.

By the way, how do I get an auto-knowledge knowledge review?

I would put myself forward for service but no premie (is that ok?)I know would believe it was for real.

How do I get past that?

PS Are there any other words or phrases I should be avoiding, don't want to get it all wrong, on what could be my last chance.

much appreciated, glen, you don't mind me calling you glen?

By the way, how is Bullent's travel service going?
Oh I know, that's chit-chat (is that ok?).

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 18:34:30 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: hahahaha! house music
Subject: Elan Vital, talking to me, I am honoured
Message:
Dear ham,
Here I thought you wanted to use any digital voice stuff of m's for a devotional house mix! :) Would be a big seller, think about it! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 19:04:58 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I'm sure you're right BUT
Message:
somehow don't think ev would grant copyright release, and certainly I haven't got the dosh to be chased through the courts, This great bunch in the uk called 'Shut Up and Dance', who basically invented drum & bass, were bankrupted and out of the business for a number of years exacvtly because of this approach,
and we all know how keen gm is to use lawyers when he can!

Apart from that, not sure I could live with meself promoting him in any wasy shape or fashion.

Robyn, didn't realize what a businesswoman you coulkd be, maybe I ought to get brainstorming wid ya on some other stuff.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 20:11:33 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: I'm sure you're right BUT
Message:
Dear ham,
'Robyn, didn't realize what a businesswoman you coulkd be, maybe I ought to get brainstorming wid ya on some other stuff.'
All right! :) Someone finally sees my potiential! :) As long as it isn't that 'other' thing your always trying to sell. :)
Let me know.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 02:51:19 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Anyone have digital recordings of gm?
Message:
You and Pauline Premie should collaborate on a Broadway musical about the Lord of the Universe.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:12:24 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Subject: Hello to all and Happy New Year
Message:
Subject: Hello to all and Happy New Year

Oliver attracted me back here by emailing a thread on the Dalai Lama. I
have tickets to his two day workshop here in Portland on Mother's Day
this year. All the proceeds of the sales will go to establishing a
permanent home center for the exiled Tibetan Monks here in Portland.
Great news to me on New Year's Eve, because my 22 year old son has been
wanting to be part of an active Buddhist group, but did not want to go
away to do it! I got 4 tickets at $150 each, at the church I just began
to re-attend on New Year's Eve, with the minister Mary Manin Morrissey
of Living Enrichment Center in Wilsonville Oregon. You can hear the
Sunday messages online if you choose, at their web site.

All peace and blessings to you all. To change your life, change your
thinking....and embrace your spiritual nurturance: it works for me! Too
many coincidences to pass by, I have to acknowledge them as being
spirit or God given! I am being transformed on a prayer, effortlessly
except for true heart's desire and trying always to put love first, in
my thoughts, and actions. I feel I am moving along my journey or
passages in life with renewed faith and energy. I am becoming well and
whole and wholly myself.

If you believe in the power of prayer...please pray for a close friend
of mine who was recently diagnosed with brain cancer. He has a great
attitude, and I am hopeful that he will beat this. I am like a sister
with his wife and an aunt to his 4 kids. He is only about 48 years old.
He is a musician of Irish music (I used to play a drum and sing in a
band with him performing a few times with my husband and violin playing
son.) I am trying to get a benefit going for him or get donations of
time or money for him and my son to cut a CD of their music before he
feels too ill from chemo to do it.

There but for fortune go you or I.

Love Carol

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 05:10:35 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Happy New Millennium
Message:
Carol:

Since we're thinking about the future I just realized that they're probably going to discover the cure for age and mortality pretty soon, and chances are most people won't be able to afford it. Heck, even if it were as cheap as a pair of jogging shoes lots of people couldn't get a ticket. Do you suppose we could have a charity drive to save everyone's life? Would a 100% flat income tax be politically feasible, if 'What-Me-Worry' is still in office?

When I used to attend the LEC (with a lovely soprano friend) a large percentage of the congregation believed that Atlantis was a real place, and half of those knew the names of specific people who had been Atlantans. (Not 'Atlanta,' mind you. Everyone knows *that's* unreal.) And a smaller percentage believed they were communicating with extraterrestrials on a regular basis, and referred to some by name.

Gosh, I miss Oregon sometimes.

--Scott 'you can smell the beltway from here' T.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 09:56:31 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Happy New Millennium
Message:
I think the church has changed immensely since those days, but it is the minister's message and spiritual principles that feed me, regardless of the other beliefs or practices of the people I may sit beside.
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 04:32:20 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Happy New Millennium
Message:
Carol:

I hope things have changed. I can't see why someone would not be able to be introspective, and to search for workable principles that could involve spiritual openess, but yet remain skeptical. I see far too many movements that regard skepticism as some sort of disease. This leaves people open to beliefs that can go far beyond what is healthy for them, or others. It's a little like the delemma posed by charisma itself. I think we need charisma, and charismatic leaders, but it can also be a sort of poison. It's a huge challenge.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 09:52:45 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Happy New Millennium
Message:
I always start a skeptic and see. I learned at LEC to try things differently with my habits of thinking and watched what happened...like a scientific experiment. It is almost to me now like a science that I know from personal experience that it is true for me what Mary says frequently, to paraphrase:thoughts held in mind over time become your reality. Life is not happening to you; life is happening through you. It removes you out of 'being a victim' when you realize that you are the one who gets to decide what you will experience...how you will react and respond to every situation. It takes you out of the endless circles of stepping into old ruts in the road, old patterns of thinking that are like revolving doors and take you nowhere.

It is similar the message I first got years back from the book man's Search for Meaning by the holocaust camp survivor and author Victor Frankl.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 05:11:45 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Yikes!! That 'charisma' bs word again! (nt I wish)
Message:
I am sure there is a better concept. Conceptual analysis only when I can afford a few hundred dollars CDN for the OED CD.

Have you read Robert Bly?

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 19:21:12 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Charisma: Weber, Bly and Turner
Message:
Stonor:

I've read Bly, and participated in that 'men's movement' thing when in OR for awhile. It doesn't hold any special place for me, to be frank. His poetry is interesting. On the other hand, the concept of charisma, or charismatic legitimacy, has been around for a century, and there's considerable literature devoted to it. Some people may use it as a bs word, but it actually has a fairly precise meaning that begins with Weber at the turn of the century and has undergone some elaboration since, with Ernest Gellner for instance. Jurgen Habermas is probably the most influencial philosopher and social scientist on the planet, and he's very definitely a Weberian.

By comparison there is very little research that supports Bly's perspective. People are welcome to believe whatever they like, and there is no guarantee that Weber isn't bs, or that Bly *is*. But new popular movements in the self-help-psychology field come along about every five years, and given the way people tend to jump on the latest bandwagon I'm still not overly impressed with Bly. However, I do admire him for some of the unpopular stands he has taken, on the Gulf War for example. The notion that manhood and courage need a 'thicker' tradition has a lot of merit.

I think a great deal of Frederick Turner, BTW. He's the American Pragmatist philosopher ('Beauty: the Value of Values'). Pragmatism is about the only real contibution the US has ever made to philosophy, but it's a big one.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 19:55:00 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Charisma
Message:
Hi Scott,

I think we either disagree about the definition of 'charisma' or of its potential value to 'good' leadership (or teaching for that matter). The problem, as you mention, is that 'it can be a sort of poison.' I don't see a potential double-edged sword as a characteristic to hold in high esteem; in fact, I don't like its use even for apparently positive ends. m's 'charisma clearly caused a huge problem for most posting here, which is why I am surprised to read that some still place so much value on it. People who use their charisma to influence others has always been a red flag for me, and learning more about 'cults' has only re-inforced my negative reaction towards those who do.

Anna

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 05:16:59 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Mary M. went to satsang:then fused HER Own Cult(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 10:13:42 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: such
Subject: I disagree. No worship of Mary going on here...
Message:
Just real respect for her for challenging me out of my old concepts and ways of thinking that crippled me from reaching the personal goals I have. Heck, she challenged me to figure out what my goals and 'dreams' are...I did not know. I did not think it mattered. (It sure matters to me now!)

That environment helped me heal from abuse and move way on from it. It gave me the encouragment that I needed to finally go for hospice volunteering, which has been very rewarding to me, and that has given me more life experience from which to evaluate my next goals.

I am not stagnant. I am flowing with energy of an alive life. I will be 50 years old on the 9th and am embracing this second half of my life with more hope and thoughts of possibility and good, and a firm belief that I can, in my small way, help others to know how much love there is and how much we each have to give to eachother.

Scott, do you think I am trying to attract a cult, too? I am writing a journal of my recovery and thoughts and events to share. Don't you believe that there are actually people who do good for others because it seems to be their inclination and gift to do so? If you can find your gifts and use them for the greater good, all will benefit and you will feel fulfilled!
Regards, Carol

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 17:04:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Wow, Saint Carol! And to think we all knew her
Message:
when!

You are very, very special, Carol.

.... but I guess you already knew that, didn't you?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 20:25:30 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Who else Ministers and gets Money at LEC Church?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:34:55 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: We've already done our HNYs, but ..
Message:
Wanted to say hi!

Too many coincidences to pass by, I have to acknowledge them as being spirit or God given!

Well said, Carol, sounds like nice synchronicity with your son and the Tibetan Buddhists! I went to one of their events here in Montreal and it was a real pleasure - like a piece of Tibet transported to Montreal, with food, dancing and singing, handicrafts ...!

Big hugs to you, will email soon!

Love, Anna

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:22:45 (GMT)
From: Yves FKA Boris
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sort of...
Message:
I will be in Montréal in a few monthe when cities on the island merge. You get the accents with the keyboard driver available with Windows. As for some Gourou-event, I've been away for too long to be of any nelp. If Gourou-ji ever comes to town, I pledge to do my best to attract media attention. The queen of England got the hint and hasn't shown-up only once since 1964.

Get their phone on the net. I have a copy of LOTU video which I hide on the shelf behind the piano. If my soulmate ever catch me with it, I will give her a reason to humiliate me beyond the three worlds. What did you say your name is again? Anna? Stoner? I must be either confused or in me mind.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 17:22:26 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Yves FKA Boris
Subject: Hello, Yves
Message:
I might know you as I'm from Montreal. Received knowledge in 1977 and left in 1986.

Is the Montreal premie community shrinking? Any interesting information on Georges Legere or Ginette Sauve?

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 20:06:17 (GMT)
From: Y argue?
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Hello, Yves
Message:
Yes we must know each other. I was around some more then.

Yes I do know a few crunchies but I won't tell here. This is a zoo where moles dig and ex hen-pick. Sorry. I had my lesson.

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 03:59:58 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Y argue?
Subject: OK Yves, I accept that I have to ....
Message:
OK Yves, I accept that I have to go to Virginia to see LOTU, or order it from one of the real Amazons!

(Keep it well hidden!)

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:37:57 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor21@hotmail.com
To: Yves FKA Boris
Subject: Sort of...
Message:
Hi Yves,

Now that you've started a new thread to answer me, I KNOW you're the right Yves! ;-)

Stonor is one of my family names, but my name is Anna - I only use Stonor to post. I don't feel like contacting them that way - don't think I could fake enough interest. I was hoping I might be able to just tag-along with someone. I understand that you are OUT of the scene! ;-)

And would there be any remote chance I could take a look at that LOTU video sometime? Could be tricky wrt your soulmate and potential humiliation!

I use a Mac, but it must have the same capability to do accents (I have them in Word, of course) - will try exploring a little more one of these days.

And let's not get into that merger shit! Talk about OT! ;-)

Thanks for responding,

Anna

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 22:47:39 (GMT)
From: Yves+
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Insider
Message:
I'm always late on Hollywood flicks. There are too many good flicks around to rush on latest gun-filled-Yankee-flicks which often stink self-adoration.

I once pledged I'd never eat meat again. I changed it to 'I'll never see a Hollywood flick in a theater again'. Never. Given more'd pledge likewise, chances are things'd change.

Last night I saw The Insider on video with my gal. She's not nonollywoodarian. It reminded me of Micheal Dettmers except for the fact the guy onscreen has guts while MD don't. I am still puzzled on why MD is trying to fool us all into some non-sensical riddle like this:

'Nothing-illegal-ever-happened-and-if-there-was-I-wouldn't-tell-anyways.'

What a sick loop that is. I thought the guy had brains. What he meant probably was:

'Because of my non-disclosure agreement, I couldn't tell of anything illegal which might have happenened with DUO/DLM/Maharaj Ji while I was involved. (Nudge-nudge, Wink-wink, Say-no-more, Say-no-more.)'

Has anyone watched Kingdom by Lars Von Trier? Best flick I've seen so far this year.

Last years my personal awards went to
Dancer in the dark-Gold
Churchill (a 1994 BBC documentary)-Silver
Le Roman d'un tricheur(1936)-Bronze
The man in the moon (1999)-Tin

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:00:05 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor21@hotmail.com
To: Yves+
Subject: Are you the Yves in Montreal?
Message:
Bonne Annee Yves! (how do people get the accents in?)

Despite the fears of some here, and although I think I know what to expect(probably something like the Guru Mayi event I attended), I would like to attend an m-thing here in Montreal. Can you help me out? Kind of a 'completion' thing.

They wouldn't, by any chance, have screenings of LOTU from time to time, would they? That I would really be motivated to see! ;-)

Anna

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 02:53:49 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Are you the Yves in Montreal?
Message:
Just walk in. If anyone ask, ignore them, if they insist, say you heared about blubber from a freind and you are interested in finding out more.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 03:09:10 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I thought his name was 'Boofhead', Salam!
Message:
I thought his name was 'Boofhead', Salam! Now you're getting me all mixed up again. Help me Guru Nerdjii! Your chela is lost in the maya of terms of endearment! Maybe I should just call and say that I hear they can connect me to the Lord of the Universe (from a pay phone, or maybe the school so it won't cost me a quarter!). Do you think that would get the time and place out of them?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 05:03:13 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Won't work.
Message:
No short cuts. U trying to get by with 25C, ha. you think he is an idiot.

Boofhead is a reserve word, he does not deserve that. Also find a good dictionary.

Man am pissed off. It bloody hot, humid, sticky, my e-mail is crap does not want to work, computer keeps crashing and am getting the shit. I think I burn the whole place up. Wad u tink?

Not happy

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 22:31:33 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: VIRUS ALERT: Snow White and the 7 Dwarves (OT)
Message:
Sorry to bother you with this, but if it helps anyone ...

From my other friend called Helen in BC:

Today I received two messages titled 'Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!' - both containing attachments which are infected with viruses. Do not open these attachments! I have the latest Norton anti-virus updates installed on my system, which detected the viruses but were not able to delete them so that I could safely open the attachments.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:20:05 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Escaping from the Cult
Message:
Sandy (SHP), below, in his valiant debate with Turner said he used to be like Turner until he heard about:-

* Jagdeo
* The Blondes
* 'Auto Knowledge' of Vehicular Manslaughter
* x-rated caste system

and these were the 'drips' that changed his position on Maharaji. I got to thinking 'what if these had been kept secret or had not even happened'? Would Sandy and others like him have escaped? What if Maharaji had not totally misused the power we allowed him? What if he'd lived reasonably comfortably, but not ostentatiously, what if he'd treated ashram premies with much more consideration? What if he hadn't made all the mistakes he made in the past?

What if he'd been a lot smarter, but still allowed the belief that he was the Lord???

Would I have got out? I hope so, and I like to think so, but would I have made it?

When I first visited this site in December 1998, there wasn't much corroborated scandal. I think it was the very fact of being able to question the whole thing openly that got me out. It very quickly became clear to me that he was just another spiritual teacher selling meditation techniques, and there wasn't anything to link my meditation experiences with him. Then it was very easy to see that there was no reason I should 'follow' him, and definitely no reason to think he's the Lord, or give him money. So I stopped all those things.

So Sandy, Turner, and anyone else out there, you didn't and you don't need people like Dettmers to get out. But to Susan, Abi, Dettmers and others who have been truthful here, well done, because it sure helps:-)

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:40:14 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Escaping from the Cult
Message:
Yes!

I think that there is another category of forum posting that is drip-worthy, in addition to the scandal stuff, and that is the seemingly increasingly brilliant category of 'interpretive' posting. In the best posts, the old beliefs are reinterpreted very intelligently, but without, IMO, using intelligence as a bludgeon, or getting stuck in the one-up/one-down I'm right /you're not head-space, (because this can make shifting perspectives a major surrender for marginal premies, rather than a delightful release).
An example of this kind of post which I think is as powerful as a good scandal post is the following one, which I am copying from the thread below in which shp debates with Turner, and then Way says this:

'It has been many years since the voice of a true premie has been so clearly expressed, here at this forum, or even at ELK. Instead, for years we have had 'people who practice Knowledge' being inspired by a valued teacher.

But Turner is a true premie, who has never lost what he calls the 'true covenant with the Master'. He makes us remember this convenant which we all accepted in the Knowledge session: the acknowledgement of our own ignorance, the surrender to the Living Perfect Master, the rejection of our own inner voice in favor of the Knowledge of all Knowledges within.

Turner has made good on the deal. He has thoroughly rejected his own inner voice and hears only Maharaji: 'I send out a call from my heart, to my heart and wait in the silence for a response. And the only one who answers back, and who ever has answered back is Maharaji.'

Turner outright refuses to judge Rawat by any standards of any kind. To do so would be listening to his own ignorant voice. Everything negative comes from himself. Everything peaceful, beautiful, wise, and loving comes from Maharaji and the Knowledge.

The surrender is complete. The devotee has totally rejected his own inner self in favor of his Master.

With all the information now available about Mr. Rawat, the 80's and 90's-style semi-premie is now gone and no longer possible. Any premie who fully informs him-or-herself and whose own inner voice has remained intact will easily reject Rawat as being not only Not the Perfect Master, but a sorry mess of a human being.

There are now only two alternatives: freeing oneself from Mr. Rawat, or becoming the 'true premie,' one who believes that Mr. Rawat is above all humaness and resides within one's own heart.

Rejection of one's own voice in favor of the guru's is a very real alternative, and one that is taken by many many people, even to their deaths. The Jim Jones type of a cult seems nearly unimaginable, but it is very real. Elan Vital will definitely move in this direction, because the only people who will be willing now to stay on with Rawat are the ones who are willing to accept blind faith in the Master above all reason. They think they are listening to their heart, not knowing that their heart has been sabotaged.

Make no mistake. The guru who fosters this kind of faith in his disciples is a great criminal. '

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 00:55:27 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Shades of Kabir
Message:
'Make no mistake. The guru who fosters this kind of faith in his disciples is a great criminal.' -Way

Hi Dissy,

When I was reading your post, the last comment by Way which I have copied above resonates like the last line in many a poem by Kabir. And the depth of devotion to the truth in that line rings many times louder than anything I have read by any 'practicing premie'. Maybe that's why they call it 'practicing', because they don't have it down yet, written in their hearts and minds.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:36:41 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji/Relationships/Surrender
Message:
Here is another quote from Maharaji, undoubtedly something that drives both he and Elan Vital nuts to see quoted, because it exposes the lies of the FAQs on the Elan Vital website.

I remember listening to Maharaji tell this story on more than one occasion. It is illustrative of a number of wonderful things that Maharaji indoctrinated his devotees with, including:

1. You must dedicate your life to Maharaji 100%, be completely focused on him and allow nothing else in your life to interfere;

2. Human relationships are just part of the 'world' and get in the way or 100% dedication, which is the purpose of your life, and are a form of 'entrappment';

3. If you move into his ashram you shouldn't ever move out, even if you fall in love and want to get married, and if you do you will be 'in a state of misery';

4. It's all Maharaji's 'grace' that 'saves' us from our own minds, which is your very own devil living inside you.

What do you think of this? God, no wonder we were all so screwed up and most premies still are. This is Maharaji around 1978:

The Premie who decided to get married

Mind lulls us away into something, but everything's here, like that example, that story of this premie who came to Guru Maharaj Ji's ashram to dedicate his life.... He moved into Guru Maharaj Ji's ashram and stayed there and he would do service every day. One day he decided he wanted to go off and get married.

And to me it's so real; Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace, saving us every moment. He went off to be married. And in the Indian marriage custom the bridegroom rides a horse to the bride's house and picks her up there. There's where the whole ceremony happens.

And Guru Maharaj Ji - all these devotees wanted to go to his marriage, too. All the brothers who were in the ashram - 'ashram mates', I guess - wanted to go there. I don't know. Probably another excuse. Nothing much. Guru Maharaj Ji was there. What's in a marriage being performed? Seeing another creature getting entrapped, perhaps.

They went off and Guru Maharaj Ji handed them a letter and said, 'Listen. Give this letter to him, but wait until just before he hops on his horse to go to the bride's house' - because that's were the final ceremony happens. 'Give this letter to him.'

And just as he was ready to ride the horse, they came and handed him the letter. 'There is a letter from Guru Maharaj Ji'.

And he was pleased. 'Oh, how fantastic. Guru Maharaj Ji remembered me.' And probably in his concepts he was thinking that Guru Maharaj Ji has probably said, 'Congratulations. Have a nice marriage,' or something like that - what he really wanted to hear, I guess.

But he opened up the letter and it didn't say that at all. What it said is you came into this world to surrender to me, to completely focus yourself on me, to completely let go to me. And now you are wearing this whole costume of a bridegroom, and are going to get entrapped into this world. You came to get away from this world and now you're going right back into this world. You came from that place of misery to an incredible satisfaction and now you're going back to misery.

And I guess it really did him in. It was 'the right place at the right time,' plus a lot of Grace from Guru Maharaj Ji. He really realized. He took his horse and headed right to the ashram. And he went there and then he really realized, he really could see.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 11:20:44 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hey Joe ? Full reference of the quote ?
Message:
did you lift this from the EV-DLM Papers ?

Where, when was it published etc ?

I've heard that story many times from him.

JM

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 23:54:31 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hey Joe ? Full reference of the quote ?
Message:
J-M,

I got it off the EV-DLM Papers, under 'Tales and Stories.' I personally recall him telling that story in about 1978.

Where did you get the printed version? Was it in Divine Times or And It Is Divine?

Joe

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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 09:38:55 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Rawat's most damaging stuff
Message:
One of them I guess. I've lifted all these stories from the magazines I own. The pity is I didn't kept the reference for each one of them.

I chose them because they're the kind of famous stories m used several times to hammer something in us ....

Here is the link:

Some of Rawat's most famous stories

I think many of them are worth thinking about. How much damage is done when you believe in all this BS!

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:19:05 (GMT)
From: suchabananda
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: m. lila [scam]: Do as I Say, NOT do as I Do! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:04:21 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: a key find Joe. -nt
Message:
vbdn
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:45:59 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Brillinat Joe - how could anyone....
Message:
....sweep this one under the carpet by saying it was part of the Eastern trip that the mahatmas brought to the west, and as we know he is still saying the same sort of stuff to the Indian premies now.

John.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:48:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Oh, yeah, I forgot
Message:
That quote could also have simply been part of the Eastern trip the mahatmas brought to the west. Who are we to judge?
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:45:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: That's not fair, Joe. He was really young then
Message:
Joe,

Maharaji was only in his early twenties when he said this. I think it's extremely unfair to hold someone that age to the same standard of accountabilty of someone that's, oh, 27 let's say. Or 30.

Besides, it might not be fair to bring this quote up at all seeing as Maharaji said it before he had any marriage counselling. And was it in Hindi, perhaps? Don't forget the language problem.

Just trying to be fair.....

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:09:58 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fuuuuuuu Christ's sake!
Message:
This was the worst part of the whole trip for me. I got married in 1976 when we were all being encouraged to leave the shram and go back into the world. Actually, I left and moved to England with my beloved, and we gradually planned our wedding, but by the time it was happening, the turn-around had already happened, and my fucking bridesmaid, while helping me with my dress and all that, was giving me satsang very similar to the letter in the story. It was extremely conflicting and weird.

Then we became full-time servants as a couple, and because of bucks had access to lots of in-crowd events, where we were subjected to these kinds of 'satsangs,' in particular the Ecknot story, which was repeated about ten thousand times during several tours. The essence of that story was that a young boy leaves his aging parents to join Guru Maharaji's ashram, and a good thing too!

I went into a level of conflict and stress that almost did me in, and simultaneously started getting really ill, and I am still dealing with this illness nearly 20 years later. I consider this to have been the mind-fuck to end all mind-fucks, and it did not help my body. There were definitely other factors, such as my pre-created tendencies and patterns, which exacerbated this conflict. However, I don't quite see how anyone could find themselves in this kind of reversal, while believing someone to be the true master, and not get really damaged. This kind of damage used to be considered some kind of spiritual initiation, but I consider it to be damage. I'm healing it, and regenerating myself. And, it is amazing how long my body is taking to unravel this particular imprint.

This is the one thing that I really hold him accountable for, in terms of damage to my life. My question to him would be, (after giving him a shor of sodium pentathol) 'What was your real motivation in closing the ashrams. What was your real motivation in reopening them, and pressuring everyone - even married people, to move back in. What was your motivation in re-closing them?' I know that the answer is that it was for his own benefit, now, and this has really helped unhinge any last spasms in my nervous system long after my mind let go of the whole thing.

Thanks for posting this, Joe.

And does anyone have the problem with the cat who lovingly sits right between you and the computer screen, purring?

Love, Disculta

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:27:28 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Fuuuuuuu Christ's sake!
Message:
I went into a level of conflict and stress that almost did me in, and simultaneously started getting really ill, and I am still dealing with this illness nearly 20 years later. I consider this to have been the mind-fuck to end all mind-fucks, and it did not help my body.

I can relate to that.

The first thing that rebelled against Maharaji was my body. Maybe my mind had subconsciously rebelled sooner, but it was definately the fact that I was becoming very ill, when I went to programs and/or heard these heavy commitment satsangs, that forced me to back off. I am absolutely certain that the stress -which for an ashram premie aspirant was enormous - was responsible for a number of illnesses that I too am still trying to get the better of.

It was this kind of Pied Piper, follow me, give up everything, surrender forever thing that made me for one - deeply unhappy and eventually sick. Even when things lightened up inthe 80's (commitment wise) I still could not get over what I had been put through. In fact, to be honest, I still haven't got over it entirely.

Actually I should have seen the warning lights when I was 17 and at Copenhagen hearing about Maharaji for the first time. At the end of the day, all Maharaji's behaviours etc. are kind of irrelevant to me, compared to my underlying gripe that I was told to give up all the nice things in life, sex being a major one of course, just as I was starting out!

I wish I could have been the type of person tht took it less seriously. Those types seem to have got a better deal.
You know what? Knowledge was like a bit like war for me - very traumatic. Ok- back to work now -I just popped out to check the forum -not really intending to write -whilst my hard drives are optimizing.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 02:21:24 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Patrick
Subject: Not a bit of a war
Message:
But to me it was a full scale inner war that went on for years and damaged my health, both physical and mental.

The inner conflict I have suffered, continually since being programmed by Maharaji, has had a very bad long term effect on me.

I know I'm not the only one.

.. Dave

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:36:38 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Patrick
Subject: Pied Piper, hardly! More like fucking Satan!
Message:
the evil little fucker was and still is more like Satan offering a Faustian bargain where you give everything including your soul and he gets rich and you get nothing but empty promises.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 08:06:25 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Boy isn't that the truth!!!!!! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:59:32 (GMT)
From: shp
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Red light, green light!
Message:
Remember the game, 'red light-green light'?
Great game. One person yells either red light or green light, and the rest of the kids start off at one end of a field or something. Green light mean you can run and of course red light means you have to stop. Whoever gets to the finish line first wins.

So that's what we've been doing???

The 'cosmic stories' about a teacher who made his devotees do all kinds of crazy contradictory stuff are easier to read than to live, lemme tell ya....

I remember once at a program I was privvy to some close-to-stage-service. Didn't happen often to me, so I was all excited. Anyway, I heard that Maharaji had sent two completely opposite agyas to two key people at the stage. He told one that he must get through a check point and come to Maharaji asap, and he told the other one that under no circumstances does anyone get through that checkpoint and nobody is to see him. When these two guys collided, it was nuts for awhile, until they heard the giggles in their headphones. Lila shmila. For what? Maybe he should get an ant farm....watch them bump into each other all day.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:35:57 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: shp
Subject: Dontcha just hate practical jokers (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:49:15 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Maharaji's ashram errors
Message:
Yes, it was really a mind fuck that Maharaji performed on us.

Almost everyone who moved out of the ashrams in 1976 were made to feel extremely guilty by about the middle of 1977, by which point Maharaji had abandoned the 'humanitarian leader' mantle and resumed being the incarnation of God, unabated. And the people who got married were especially spat upon, because they had ruined their chances to dedicate their lives and couldn't get back into the ashram if they had kids. Well, maybe next lifetime, right! This did not stop a multitude of divorces and abandoned children, however. Such was the power Maharaji had over people.

The ashram premies got to feel smug about this. The householders were slightly pitied, because Maharaji considered us 'special.' Little did we know that not only didn't Maharaji give a crap about any of us, by 1983 he was quite willing to dump us onto the streets with no explanation whatsoever.

According to Michael Dettmers and KK, another PAM, Maharaji didn't really give closing the ashrams all that much thought. He just directed that it be done and took no responsbility for their existence nor their elimination, and especially not for the many devotees who had wasted years living in them, believing his lies that this was a life-long committment.

The reasons for closing them were that:

1. The ashram premies were aging and would likely no longer be the cash cows they had been, and since they mostly worked menial jobs, they didn't have health insurance. Increased medical costs for worthless ashram premies might cut into the funds available for Maharaji's watch collection, latest jet, and yacht, and that would never do.

2. Apparently, a stated reason was that the ashrams interferred with propagation, because they were unrelatable to most people. This is because the ashrams and the weird people in them, made it more obvious to more people that Maharaji was heading a cult. No shit, Sherlock!

Note, however, that closing the ashrams does not appear to have helped propagation much, as Maharaji had more followers then than he does how, 15 years later.

Also, something that Maharaji's insightful mind did not anticipate, was that treating thousands of his closest followers with such dismissive, uncarring, disdain, would likely result in quite a number of people who would hold a major grudge against him for the rest of his and their lives, perhaps becoming a thorn in his corpulent side.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 22:24:26 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It's here now
Message:
The whole sick mess that was Maharaji's bringing turmoil to the world.

Maharaji forbids relationships

If there's anything else that people would like to have put on that web page, please put it in this thread and I'll copy it over.

.. Dave

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:03:30 (GMT)
From: Maurice
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Emotional Suicide.
Message:
I remember at that time I had been an aspirant for 3 or 4 years and I came to the conclusion that no one would come between me and my relationship with Our One True Lord, all my yearnings made me think it was the right move and M was saying the total surrender to me stuff , and now I realise it was then I felt my heart close to all my feelings similar to when I was very young and I said to myself I'll never show my feelings because when I do I just get hurt. I concluded that as M. is a total fake and a psychic rip off I must have shut down my own feelings to please the fat shit and perhaps I really fucked up my own natural feelings and thus my emotional growth and it has taken years and a lot of help to find them again. Maurice
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Date: Fri, Jan 05, 2001 at 18:24:01 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Maurice
Subject: Emotional Suicide.
Message:
Yeah, it's definitely crazy making to be told, 'open your heart to that beautiful experience of love' BUT 'only give it to Maharaji, if you give it to anyone else they will only come in the way of your spiritual progress.' That's really nuts. I mean, here we were trying to find this enlightenment experience beyond dualities (GOD) and all these very strict dualities were being set up. Don't do service for others, Noooo, service to M only. Don't have this kind of happiness, Noooo, only Maharaji's bliss is the real truth Etc Etc. I mean, the dictates were just as bad as blue haired church ladies telling little kids that they will go to hell if they didn't go to confession.

It's pretty ironic that learning how to love can only really happen in the context of real live relationships in the three dimensional world, not the relationship with M in one's head. I was never in the ashram, and never a very diciplined premie at all, but I sure had my fill of platitudes from people in the ashram who said that marriage was just an impediment to 'that love affair' with M. But it really was a love affair with their own little experiences in their own brains. I just can't imagine what that must have been like, narrowing one's world down into just YOU and MAHARAJI. I know it was supposed to be blissful but it sounds so awful to have no socialization with other people. Sure, there were other premies in the ashram and people coming and going and lots of opportunities even for chit chat I am sure, but to really BOND with people, was that there?

I do think alot of damaging stuff was imprinted on us during the premie years. I think it really does come down to a sort of reprogramming of one's self. Learning how to live, or learning how to be a normal human being.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:31:04 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: In case anyone is interested.
Message:
AFF News Briefs - December 2000

Dr. Robert Jay Lifton will be the keynote speaker at next year's AFF conference. A printed version of the flyer below has been mailed to AFF subscribers and other supporters. You can help us make this conference a success by forwarding the flyer to people who might be interested in attending. We hope that you will attend. Thank you.

AFF

Cults, Conversion, Science & harm
AFF 2001 Annual Conference


When: Friday & Saturday, May 4-5, 2001


Where: New York City area

Holiday Inn at Newark, New Jersey Airport

Program:

Thursday, May 3, 2001 (Pre-Conference Events)

· Workshop for Former Group Members (10:00 - 5:00; with optional evening session)

Coordinator: Carol Giambalvo; Joseph Kelly; Wendy Ford Wolfberg, M.Ed.

· Workshop for Families and Friends (10:00 - 5:00)

Coordinator: Livia Bardin, M.S.W.

Friday, May 4, 2001

· Cults, Conversion, Science, and Harm (Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.)

· Cults, Culture, and Human Rights (Randy Kandel, Ph.D., J.D.)

· After the Cult: Spiritual Issues (Craig Branch, Coordinator)

· Social Influences on Youth (Dean Borgman, M.A., CAGS)

· Cults Around the World (Mike Kropveld, Coordinator)

· Problems in New Catholic Movements (Peter Malinoski, Ph.D. Candidate, Coordinator; Ray Dreitlin, Ph.D.; Fr. Michael Duggan, Ph.D.; Fr. James LeBar)

· Cults and New Religious Movements: Sociological Perspectives (Stephen Kent, Ph.D. and Benjamin Zablocki, Ph.D., Coordinators; Dianne Casoni, Ph.D.)

· Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves (Steven Hassan, M.Ed., LMHC.; Discussants: David Clark; Linda Dubrow, Ph.D.; Steve Dubrow-Eichel, Ph.D., ABPP)

· Conversion Experiences: Positive Accounts (Joseph Szimhart, Coordinator)

· Sociological Research: An International Perspective (Jean-Francois Mayer, Ph.D.)

Saturday, May 5, 2001

· Cult Members Reflect on The Family's Experience (Livia Bardin, M.S.W., Coordinator)

· Cults and New Religious Movements: Psychological Perspectives (Rod Marshall, Ph.D. and Peter Malinoski, Ph.D. Candidate, Coordinators; Lois Kendall, B.Sc., Jodi Aronoff McKibben, M.S., Ph.D. Candidate, Jonibeth Whitney, M.A., Ph.D. Candidate)

· Cults and the Law: Practical Issues (Marcia Rudin, M.A., Coordinator; Robin Boyle, J.D., Randy Kandel, Ph.D., J.D., Herbert L. Rosedale, Esq.)

· Cults: A Thirty-Year Retrospective (Margaret Thaler Singer, Ph.D.)

Continued on page 3

Registration Form

Name(s): ____________________________________________________________________________________

Address: ____________________________________________________________________________________

City: ______________________________________________ State: _____ Zip: ___________________________

Country: ____________________________________________________________________________________

Phone(s): _________________________________________Fax: ______________________________________

E-Mail: _____________________________________________________________________________________

All rates are per person. Registration includes conference fee only. All meals are optional. (Less expensive meals are available in the hotel restaurant.) Attendees need to make their own hotel reservations and pay the hotel directly for their rooms and non-conference meals. Ask for the special AFF room rate, which will only be guaranteed through April 19th ($89.99 plus tax per night; 973-589-1000; see back for directions). Enter appropriate amounts for registration fees and optional meals on the right and total at the bottom. (Your contributions will help us give discounts and 'scholarships' to people needing financial assistance.) NOTE: See discount columns for early registration fees. Don't forget credit card information at the bottom. Fax, mail, or e-mail this form to AFF, P.O. Box 2265, Bonita Springs, FL 34133 (fax: 941-649-2267; e-mail: aff@csj.org).


No.

People
Item
Register By

31 Jan. 01
Register By

1 Mar. 01
After

1 Apr. 01
Calculate Amount Due

Registration Two-Day (Friday & Saturday)

$140

$170

$200


Registration: pre-conference ex-member workshop (Thursday 10:00 am - 5:00 pm; optional evening program 7:00 - 9:30 pm)

$45

$60

$75


Registration: pre-conference family workshop (Thursday 10:00 am - 5:00 pm)

Coping with Cult Involvement: A Handbook for Families and Friends is a required text for the workshop. Attendees may purchase the book at the workshop ($27) or contact AFF about purchasing it in advance.

$55

$70

$85


One-Day Registration.

Check Day: Friday [ ] Saturday [ ]

$80

$100

$120


Thursday Lunch
$ 20


Thursday Dinner
$ 35


Friday Lunch
$ 20


Friday Dinner
$ 35


Saturday Lunch
$ 20


Saturday Dinner
$ 35

Contribution

$

Total
$


Payment Method: _____Check _____Credit Card: ___Visa ___ MasterCard

CC No. ____________________________________________________________ Expiration Date: ___________


Events Continued

· Governmental Responses to Cults (Michael Kropveld, Coordinator)

· Conversion Experiences: Negative Accounts (Lorna Goldberg, M.S.W., Coordinator; Maureen Griffo, Mary O'Connell)

· Developing Accountability Mechanisms in Cults (Benjamin Zablocki, Ph.D. and Stephen Kent, Ph.D., Coordinators; Janja Lalich, Ph.D.)

· Born and Abused in Cults (Carey Bowen, Coordinator; Arnold Markowitz, M.S.W., C.S.W.; Rev. Robert Pardon)

· Thought Reform Consultation (David Clark, Carol Giambalvo, Joseph Kelly, Patrick Ryan, Hana Whitfield, Jerry Whitfield)

· Methodological Recommendations Regarding Scientific Research on Cults (Jodi Aronoff McKibben, Ph.D. Candidate; Discussants: Arthur Dole, Ph.D.; Peter Malinoski, Ph.D. Candidate; Benjamin Zablocki, Ph.D.)

· Keynote Address: Conversion in Aum Shinrikyo

Robert Jay Lifton, M.D.

'Coordinators' are organizing programs for which all speakers may not have been identified at time of printing.


Presenters

Livia Bardin, M.S.W., Psychotherapist, Clinical Social Worker, Washington, D.C.

Dean Borgman, M.A., CAGS, Associate Professor of Youth Ministry, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary

Robin Boyle, J.D., Assistant Legal Writing Professor, St. John's University School of Law

Carey Bowen, Thought Reform Educator, Olympia, WA

Craig Branch, President and Director, Apologetics Resource Center

Dianne Casoni, Ph.D., Associate Professor, School of Criminology, University of Montreal

David Clark, Thought Reform Consultant; AFF Video Education Committee Chair, Philadelphia, PA

Arthur Dole, Ph.D., ABPP, Emeritus Professor of Education, University of Pennsylvania

Linda Dubrow, Ph.D., Psychologist, RETIRN (Re-entry Information & Referral Network).

Steve Dubrow-Eichel, Ph.D., ABPP, Psychologist and Co-director of RETIRN, Philadelphia, PA

Ray Dreitlein, Ph.D., Professor of Psychology at Kean University, Instructor at Rutgers University Center for Alcohol Studies. Private practice in psychotherapy, Berkeley Heights, NJ.

Fr. Michael Duggan, Ph.D., Assistant Professor of Theology and Religious Studies at St. Mary's, College in Calgary and priest of the Diocese of Calgary, Alberta

Carol Giambalvo, Director of Recovery Programs, AFF; Thought Reform Consultant, Flagler Beach, FL

Lorna Goldberg, M.S.W., A.C.S.W., New Jersey Institute of Psychoanalysis

Maureen Griffo, Board Member, reFOCUS, New York City

Steven Hassan, M.Ed., LMHC, Director, Freedom of Mind Resource Center, Cambridge, MA

Randy Kandel, Ph.D., J.D. Assistant Professor of Law, Loyola Law School, Los Angeles

Joseph Kelly, Thought Reform Consultant, Philadelphia, PA

Lois Kendall, B.Sc. (Hon), Doctoral Candidate; Buckinghamshire Chilterns University College; England.

Stephen Kent, Ph.D., Professor of Sociology, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta

Mike Kropveld, Executive Director, Info-Cult, Montreal, Canada

Janja Lalich, Ph.D. Lecturer, Department of Sociology, California State University, Chico

Michael Langone, Ph.D., Executive Director, AFF; Editor, Cultic Studies Journal

Fr. James LeBar, priest of the Archdiocese of New York

Robert Jay Lifton, M.D. Distinguished Professor of Psychiatry and Psychology and Director, Center on Violence and Human Survival, John Jay College of Criminal Justice and the Graduate Center, City University of New York

Peter Malinoski, Ph.D. Candidate, Ohio University, Meridian Psychological Associates, Indianapolis, IN

Arnold Markowitz, M.S.W., C.S.W., Director, Cult Hotline & Clinic, Jewish Board of Family and Children's Services, New York City

Rod Marshall, B.A. (Hons), Ph.D., Senior Lecturer in Psychology and Head of Human Sciences, Buckinghamshire Chilterns University College, England

Jean-Francois Mayer, Ph.D., University of Fribourg, Switzerland

Jodi Aronoff McKibben, M.S., Ph.D. Candidate, Ohio University, Research Scientist, University of Maryland, Baltimore

Mary O'Connell, New York City

Rev. Robert Pardon, Co-Director/Administrator, New England Institute of Religious Research, Lakeville, MA

Herbert L. Rosedale, Esq., President, AFF; Senior Partner, Parker Chapin, New York City

Marcia Rudin, M.A., Founding Director, International Cult Education Program

Patrick Ryan, AFF Web Site Manager; Thought Reform Consultant, Philadelphia, PA

Margaret Thaler Singer, Ph.D., Emeritus Adjunct Professor of Psychology, University of California, Berkeley

Joseph Szimhart, M.A., Philadelphia, PA

Hana Whitfield, Thought Reform Consultant, Cape Coral, Florida

Jerry Whitfield, Thought Reform Consultant, Cape Coral, Florida

Jonibeth Whitney, M.A., Ph.D. Candidate, California School of Professional Psychology, Los Angeles, Counseling Center of Santa Monica

Wendy Ford Wolfberg, M.Ed. Boston, MA.

Benjamin Zablocki, Ph.D., Professor of Sociology, Rutgers University

The Facility

Holiday Inn North (160 Frontage Road, Newark, NJ 07114) is conveniently located in northern New Jersey, a short distance from New York City, near Newark Airport. In addition to an array of function rooms, the hotel includes newly renovated guest rooms and lobby, copy/facsimile services, complimentary copies of USA Today, hair dryers, iron & boards, and coffee makers in guest rooms, same day valet dry cleaning services, onsite fitness center, gift shop, and car rental facilities, remote color TV with pay per view and premium channels, and the Hunt Room Restaurant and Rothschild's Lounge on premises. Ask for the special AFF rate of $89.99 plus tax when you call to make your reservations (973-589-1000; fax: 973-589-2799). The special rate may not be available after April 19th, and other functions may result in a shortage of rooms. So register early!

Directions.

New Jersey Turnpike: Take Exit 14, then take the 2nd right (Frontage Road).

I-78 or Route 24: Take Exit 58B (Frontage Road).

Routes 1 & 9 North: (from South of Airport) follow 1 & 9 (local) to blue sign marked Frontage Road.

Routes 1 & 9 South: (from North of Airport) watch for airport sign. Take Frontage Road exit on immediate right.

Route 22: Take 1 & 9 North, local lanes, to Frontage Road.

Garden State Parkway South: Take Exit 140A to Route 22E to Routes 1 & 9 North; local lanes to Frontage Road.

Garden State Parkway North: Take Exit 142 to I-78 to Exit 58B (Frontage Road).


Transportation. Free airport shuttle leaves approximately every 10 minutes from Station E at Newark Airport. Cab fare from the airport to the hotel is approximately $12.


AFF, PMB 313, P.O. Box 413005, Naples, FL 34101-3005. Alternate address: P.O. Box 2265, Bonita Springs, FL 34133. Phone 941-514-3081; Fax 941-649-2267; E-mail: aff@csj.org; Web site: http://www.csj.org.

Workshop for former group members. Estes Park, Colorado. July 6-8, 2001. Contact AFF for more information.

AFF will hold its 2001 Annual Conference May 4-5 in the New York area. There will be preconference workshops for families, ex-members, and mental health professionals on Thursday, May 3rd. Hold these dates in your calendar. Details will be available late in the summer.

Web Site Home Page: http://www.csj.org

How We Can Help (How to Use Online Resource Guide): http://www.csj.org/rg/rg_howuse.htm

About AFF (American Family Foundation): http://www.csj.org/aff/affindex.htm

Bookstore Ordering Information: http://www.csj.org/webfrm_autorespond/bookstore_order/ordermethod.htm

Books for Sale: http://www.csj.org/rg/rgbooks/rgbkindex.htm

Group Resources: http://www.csj.org/infoserv_groups/grp_index.htm

AFF Periodicals Index: http://www.csj.org/rg/rgperiodicals/rgperiodicalsindex.htm

Cults 101: http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/cult101.htm

AFF Study Guides: http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studyIDX.htm

Essays: http://www.csj.org/rg/rgessays/rgessayindex.htm

It costs money to provide all this information!

Please contribute generously: http://www.csj.org/aff/aff_contribution.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:03:55 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re; In case anyone is interested.
Message:
Well done my friend.

Can you ring me this morning asap?

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:15:26 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: May the Fourth Be With You (nt)
Message:
OK- bad joke....
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:35:25 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: This could be extremely helpful...(Lifton)...
Message:
Robert Lifton wrote, amongst many other things, 'Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism'...

Deprogrammers regard that book as the 'Bible' of their work, and chapter 22 as the ultimate part of the book...

Anyone read it, or can get it and post it here?...

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:21:36 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I remember the raja....
Message:
A short anecdote I thought I'd pass along that happened with raja ji a few years ago in a community...

He was in town talking about m and the special k and propagation, and all of a sudden he says:

Maharaji says why don't you go out and tell all your friends about me?
Raja says to the audience: I already did, and that's why I have so few left...I want to keep the few remaining ones that I DO still have...

The audience cracked up at that one, and I remember feeling a genuine good feeling for the raja, as it seemed that he was speaking from his heart, and in a humorous way as well...

Now I look at it, and wonder why I didn't see the wisdom in what he said back then, and look a little more closely...

Jai satchitanand, brothers and sisters...

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 22:00:22 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: la-ex
Subject: Yeah, I remember that
Message:
He said that in my town, too.
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:24:54 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: The best and only premie joke ever,excellent! (nt)
Message:
ah
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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 17:42:32 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: I need my friends...Raja, we need to talk!nt
Message:
nt
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