Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 12:11:56 (GMT)
From: Jan 27, 2001 To: Feb 06, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


Tim Matheson -:- Link to my club now on Anything Goes -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 13:13:17 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Did you pass that test ?? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:34:15 (GMT)

Aussi Ji -:- I went to a program tonight -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:19:17 (GMT)
__ Aussi Ji -:- Sorry,I gave the wrong impression. -:- Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 01:35:09 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- No they are not -:- Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 12:07:36 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- I've been to a couple of programs since I left... -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 21:59:51 (GMT)
__ Steve -:- I went to a program tonight -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:14:04 (GMT)
__ __ Conlon -:- FA mutiple names Steve = Zippy? -:- Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 00:07:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve=Zippy -:- FA mutiple names Steve = Zippy? -:- Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 01:50:51 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Cool -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:36:13 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- I went to a program tonight -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 13:54:08 (GMT)
__ __ Conlon -:- More up to date stuff, yacht, satellite -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:09:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Major paranoia about that yacht! -:- Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 12:47:46 (GMT)

Jim -:- Let's get clear on something, huh? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 04:25:49 (GMT)
__ Patrick Conlon -:- Let's get clear on something, huh? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:49:31 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- No, I meant the other Patrick (nt) -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:41:37 (GMT)
__ __ Conlon -:- PS -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:06:33 (GMT)
__ salam -:- execuse me Jim -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:10:37 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- not at all -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:16:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Don't you think that this defenition is narrow -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:48:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Don't you think that this defenition is narrow -:- Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 13:59:14 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- This is no courtroom and we are not on trial !!! -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 15:37:02 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Strange, I know, but you miss my point, Hal -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 15:48:11 (GMT)
__ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Let's get clear on something, huh? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 13:37:10 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Let's get clear on something, huh? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 23:42:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick (Anon) -:- Thanks Robyn -nice 2 hear from u 2! (NT) -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 23:46:04 (GMT)
__ __ Conlon -:- Patrick, thank you for taking the time -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:23:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick (Formerly Anon) -:- Patrick, thank you for taking the time -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:16:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Conlon -:- Who's gonna be ''Paddy'' and who ''Pat?'' NT -:- Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 00:12:43 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- I'm afraid I don't get it -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:39:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- I'm afraid I don't get it -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:06:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- I'm afraid I don't get it -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:49:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- I'm afraid I don't get it -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:42:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I'm afraid I don't get it -:- Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 14:24:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Charles S -:- Advice for newbies... -:- Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 00:23:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks Charles, I think that's good advice (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 01:19:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Patrick -:- I'm afraid I don't get it -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 23:42:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Mike jumped in and got wet. That's all -:- Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 00:21:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Conlon -:- Patrick you said it well again -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:15:38 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- A response to you, Patrick -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:35:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- A response to you, Patrick -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:09:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Oh My God I didn't did I???? -:- Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 20:27:48 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- thanks Patrick (Anon) -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 17:35:35 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- Great post Patrick, definitely a 'Must Read' -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 17:28:13 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Let's get clear on something, huh? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:02:06 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Ruff! Ruff! Grrrrrr...RUFF! -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 15:33:13 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Thanks, good post BUT, there's a big difference -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 14:49:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Thanks, good post BUT, there's a big difference -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:14:37 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- No more Mr Nice Guy. -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:30:14 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- No more Mr Nice Guy. -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:12:24 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Let's get clear on something, huh? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 07:15:02 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Re-read, Scott -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:55:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Care for a donut? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:19:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- t=V, I mean (nt). -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:22:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re-read, Scott -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 13:19:42 (GMT)
__ Don Diego -:- Let's get clear on something, huh? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 06:13:43 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Mayvbe you should try the Spanish forum Don. -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:28:07 (GMT)
__ __ Brian S. -:- Hey Don Diego, sober up and learn to spell (nt) -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 07:34:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Conlon -:- Nice discussion. Thanks to all of you. -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:42:08 (GMT)

salam -:- AJW: Registration and camping fee -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:57:06 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- It's a bloody fortune salam. -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:45:38 (GMT)
__ __ JTF -:- re: ' Foundation Training' -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:41:12 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- what a place -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 04:53:59 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- We call em salties,they -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:05:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve -:- We call em salties,they -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:06:41 (GMT)

Brian S -:- I can't believe I actually thought this was real -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 22:55:49 (GMT)
__ Aussi Ji -:- I can't believe I actually thought this was real -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:09:26 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- Of course it was real -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 04:43:21 (GMT)
__ __ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Of course it was real -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 07:59:04 (GMT)
__ __ Rosalia -:- What about his smile -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 07:50:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- His smile is a reflection of THAT love. -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:24:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ROSALIA -:- I stay corrected: YOU ARE SO CLEAR PAULINE!! -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 23:43:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- What about his smile -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:03:27 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- I've Got Lyrics For Every Occasion -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 05:04:27 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- ROGER - BEST OF FORUM - MMM -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 04:56:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Funny you should say that, Steve -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:13:41 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- peer pressure -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 23:03:04 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- peer pressure, -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:28:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill the moron, I loved -:- the crown, mala, the whole schtick!-nt -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:32:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Thelma -:- I loved the crown, mala, the whole schtick! -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:47:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- the crown, mala, want a background story? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 06:46:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian S -:- the crown, mala, very enlightening Janet -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 07:43:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carol -:- Are you from Portland? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:45:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian S -:- What years are you talking about? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:20:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian S -:- Are you from Portland? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:57:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ carol -:- Are you from Portland? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:28:25 (GMT)

Marianne -:- Lurking exes, fence sitters, former PAMS: Post! -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 21:50:10 (GMT)
__ Aussi Ji -:- Yeah,Come on lurkin Aussies ,come on. -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:13:10 (GMT)
__ SpacyT -:- Mercy me -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 22:13:48 (GMT)

Susan -:- Helen Had a GREAT idea! -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:37:55 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- The forum Weekly -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 02:06:47 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Hi Susan! I nominate... -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:48:58 (GMT)
__ ELan Vital forum monitor -:- Hey, that's my job! -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:42:46 (GMT)
__ __ Elan Vital -:- Weekly Report on 'Ex-Premie Forum' -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 22:59:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- A sunday summary thread? All could chime in.nt -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:48:15 (GMT)

A Question for -:- Turner -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 09:58:18 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Oh great, Hi 'A Question for' How are you? -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 16:23:15 (GMT)
__ __ A Question for you -:- Oh great, Hi 'A Question for' How are you? -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:39:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- thenINSIDEOUT is your name in the 'from' field. -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 07:57:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Insideout -:- thenINSIDEOUT is your name in the 'from' field. -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:45:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Jim, go for the jugular -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:45:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Insideout -:- Jim, go for the jugular -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:43:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Thanks for your courteous response -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:06:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hello Insideout -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:56:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Jeez Marianne, you make it sound like a disease... -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:42:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Jeez Marianne, you make it sound like a disease.OT -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:02:54 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Question From Steve Quint To Michael Dettmers -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:14:32 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- My response -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:15:07 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- My response -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:40:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- My response -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:50:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jeff -:- Donations -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:46:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Donations -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:56:40 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- My response -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:23:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks Mike, Disculta and Joe -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:01:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hi Francesca -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:18:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- CC, scammin and 'shrammin -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 21:00:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The names and the events. -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 23:16:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- The names and the events. -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 23:51:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Illness and the Herbal Company -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:17:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- here's the link to herb co -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:23:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Illness and the Herbal Company -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:20:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Illness and the Herbal Company -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 17:16:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Illness and the Herbal Company -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:10:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Illness and the Herbal Company -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 14:56:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Hi DT -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:36:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Hi DT -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 21:58:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- This group does not require subscription to ... -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 23:06:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi DT! -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:30:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Hi DT! -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:24:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Conlon -:- Hi DT! -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:57:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- No Way! -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:30:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Conlon -:- You mean he has a new wife and kid? NT -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:50:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Really? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:08:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Conlon -:- John Horton -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 21:09:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- George and the Messers -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:29:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- George and the Messers -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 21:34:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Conlon -:- George and Patrick -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 21:11:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- George was gay? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 21:17:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- George Inc. and John Simonello -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:45:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Judy Brewer from Detroit???? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:56:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Judy Brewer from Detroit???? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 23:14:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Houses in the Haight -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 17:10:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Houses in the Haight -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:15:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Page Street and 10th Avenue -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:24:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Houses in the Haight --yes -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:12:08 (GMT)
__ janet -:- ignore them,wait for mike. its a good Q. -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:08:49 (GMT)

Gregg -:- Maharaji/Elvis -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:07:13 (GMT)
__ Steve -:- Maharaji/Elvis -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 23:02:55 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Unfair to Elvis! -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 12:58:53 (GMT)
__ Patrick Conlon -:- Gregg, Maharaji/Elvis analogy excellent -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:39:55 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- maybe he will die on his gold toilet by OD, 2 -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:12:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Brilliant, janet! Malibu palace = Greaseland! -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 11:20:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Channeling Elive -:- Viva Lost Wages, Viva Lost Wages.......nt/ot -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 16:23:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Greaseland, Janet you are the e.e.cummings -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:19:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- PS and I mean that nicely, Janet -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:32:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet the fag hag -:- thanks. so i can exhale now?. -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 08:48:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- thanks. so i can inhale now?. -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 09:35:40 (GMT)

salam -:- and to stirr the pot a little -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:30:41 (GMT)
__ SB -:- What a bunch of crap -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 06:28:07 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- What a bunch of crap -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 09:48:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- He is so pure he doesn't have any -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 13:28:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- aren't we all -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 14:33:18 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 13:13:17 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Link to my club now on Anything Goes
Message:
Just go to Anything Goes Forum and click on AG links-then VERY INTERESTING will lead you to 'I love Maharaji'
Or go there directly because we are not ashamed of OUR LORD MAHARAJ JI's past.

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ilovemaharaji

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:34:15 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Did you pass that test ??
Message:
How many 'yes' ?

Are you, or have you been UNDER INFLUENCE ?

Not that many 'no' for me ...

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:19:17 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I went to a program tonight
Message:
G'Day Everyone,
No I am not weakening.The premies who were supposed to do service at this program cancelled at the last minute,so I was asked to fill in.I thought this would be a good experiment for me to see how my exing was progressing.It was very interesting,it was like water on a ducks back.It kinda went in one ear and came straight out the other side without anything happening,it was like I was back in church when I was a kid and it all meant sweet fuck all.There was little or no reaction at all.M just rambled on about the usual insignificant crap and I was left totally unaffected.It was great to be out,but able to be confronted by it and not be freaked.Mind you I won't be making a habit of this.How did I ever get sucked in in the first place,intersting......
Cheers to you all aussi Ji
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Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 01:35:09 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Sorry,I gave the wrong impression.
Message:
I didn't go to a real program,just a local video night.It's all the same though isn't it.so fucking boring!
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Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 12:07:36 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: No they are not
Message:
one is shittier than the other, but you get to choose.
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 21:59:51 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: I've been to a couple of programs since I left...
Message:
And I had the same reaction. Both times, insanely, I had an open mind, too. (This was before I'd heard - on this site - the facts about the man behind the curtain.)

But he was in Denver, I went...the first time was in the early eighties, not too long after I'd left, and it was just strange to be at a festival again...nothing happened...I even went through darshan! Just checking. Nothing. I left glad to be free.

The second time was just a few years ago, in the K-lite era, and the insipidity of GMJ's remarks was astounding. There was nothing said! It was a substance-free event.

There is nothing sad about aging, of course, especially if the passing of time results in the trite-but-true wisdom that accrues; but there is something a little sad about seeing premies entering their twilight years STILL believing in the Perfect Master, and worse, having to be coy and quiet about it.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:14:04 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: I went to a program tonight
Message:
Well allylooya brother - you didn't get sucked in!
A lucky break (good karma if you believe that shite).
Steve.
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Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 00:07:48 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: FA mutiple names Steve = Zippy?
Message:
Check IP#
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Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 01:50:51 (GMT)
From: Steve=Zippy
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: FA mutiple names Steve = Zippy?
Message:
You clever boy, and what a criminal I must be for using multiple names.
So sorry your twatness.
I'm STEVE/ZIPPY.
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:36:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Cool
Message:
It is kind of hard to stuff Jack back in the box, isn't it? (You do have Jack-in-the-box down there, don't you?)

I know that many premies got out of the cult at one time but then got sucked in again. Several people here left more than once. But that was before all this glasnost (prestroika?). The word is out and the spell is broken. Done.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 13:54:08 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: I went to a program tonight
Message:
Dear AJ,
Glad to hear you have come out enough to be uneffected by m's presence and his drolling on. I have heard it said that to have a reaction of indifference rather than rapture or disgust is truly a sign of getting over it, whatever that it is. This was said in reference to broken relationship and I guess getting out of the cult is like that in a lot of ways.
I am sure this has been said before by long time exes like myself but, 'back in the day', there were no videos (amazes me that premies didn't exit in droves at that time!) so you only saw m at a festival and from what I understand programs and events are as dry as their names sound and the festivals were just that. My point is that there was so much good energy filling the place, crowd mentality you know, that that is what 'fed' us. M usually spoke but there were lots of others who did also. Of course Miami every November and May added to that great feeling also for this sun worshiping and misplaced soul from the cold north. So there were lots of things around but not m that gave us the good feelings we were looking for.
Someone just emailed me some EV site and even it is so steril and business like I just can't see what people see in it or get out of it all.
Glad you don't anymore either.
Love,
Robyn still thinking spring! Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:09:18 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Aussie Ji
Subject: More up to date stuff, yacht, satellite
Message:
I got a phone call last night from one of my premie friends to say that he had checked about the yacht with EV and they denied it.

He also said that Visions International told him that they were only covering 60% of their costs with the subscriptions to the satellite broadcasts but that they would soon be available free to all as the programs would not be scrambled.

Current sub is $75 per month. Most church-ladies have a dish which costs $40 a month plus $5 a pop for each broadcast x 8 per month = $40. Total = $155 per month for heavily edited garbage with more waterfalls than a tampon commercial and the Fraud's words reduced to sound-bites.

So if anyone wants to fork up $155 per month (plus cost of installing Dish) you can be au courant or you can wait until it's free.

Pauline Premie is so happy because the silly gopi has maxxed out her credit cards on BREATHE watches and glass swans and tired tie-dyed tee-shirts.

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Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 12:47:46 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: Major paranoia about that yacht!
Message:
For some reason, that seems to be EV's most deeply protected secret right now. One would think they would have more important things to worry about.
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 04:25:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Let's get clear on something, huh?
Message:
Two things, really. First, the meaning of 'new age'. A little Oxford anyone?

New Age: n. a broad movement characterized by alternative approaches to traditional Western culture, with interest in spiritual matters, mysticism, holistic ideas, environmentalism, etc. (often attrib: New Age travellers)

I think the operative theme is the first describer, a rejection of traditional Western culture. Sadly, that includes rationality and science. Oh well.

Now, what's really bugging me is some of the things I see people say about the 'heavy', 'excessive' and 'unconcstructive' negativity here. You know, the 'middle ground' people like Mike, Patrick and so many others here seem to favour. Listen, a wise old Chinese guy once told me something very sacred and holy:

you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

We were had, fucked over, depleted and kept around for further financial draining and parts. It is absolutely amazing to me to see otherwise intelligent people trying to find any value in our cult involvement or, worse still, our cult leader. Please, before you reject what I'm saying out of hand, do what I was askign Mike to do. Consider what you would think of this thing if you'd never gotten involved but you just knew about it all in detail. I can't imagine any one in that situation doing anything but simply calling the matter simply and fairly. And what would they call it? A worthless misadventure. About as beneficial as taking on a parasite, an intestinal worm you can feed for ten or fifteen years.

'But didn't you get anything out of the experience?'

'Yeah, well I met a lot of nice nurses, I didn't get fat and, well, I learnt an awful lot about parasites I didn't know before'

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:49:31 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Jim
Subject: Let's get clear on something, huh?
Message:
Jim you wrote:''Now, what's really bugging me is some of the things I see people say about the 'heavy', 'excessive' and 'unconcstructive' negativity here. You know, the 'middle ground' people like Mike, Patrick and so many others here seem to favour.''

First I've never advocated anything. I may have suggested something (somewhat pushily perhaps) as with my campaign against anonymice. I know when I've lost a battle but may continue to wage slow guerrilla warfare with occassional digs.

Also I have certainly never expected anyone else to agree with me. I am allergic to ''team'' work or any form of ''synchronization'' as many of us exes are. I may have requested that someone tone down their attack or give a guy a break. But no, no ''we'' for me.

I may have sometimes said that not all of us want to adopt a consistently nasty front. I prefer on the whole to be friendly at first until crossed. That does not mean that I expect that from you. It's just that I cannot maintain too stern an approach for too long of a time.

I have never criticized your approach. It may not be my style but I am not a fool and know that what some regard as your adversarial approach is motivated by sincerity and concern. I can be even nastier than you if needed as several anonymous trolls and stalkers and a poor camel in the outback of Australia will attest.

I actually think things are done pretty well here considering that there are two causes of anarchy here: the escape from accountability provided by anonymity as is common on the net and also exes aversion to rules or regulations.

Things are going fine on the forum and as long as I am are not expected to comform to mob rule or in fact anything that ''we'' deem proper, I'll enjoy contributing.

I've even tried picking fights with you but it does not work because, no matter how different your approach is from mine, I can not fault your honesty and sincerity. But neither can I emulate your style or try to conform to it.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:41:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: No, I meant the other Patrick (nt)
Message:
fffff
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:06:33 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: PS
Message:
Later after reading the rest of this thread I realized that you may not have been referring to me as ''Patrick.''

In deference to ''Patrick/Anon's'' seniority here I will stop using the name ''Patrick'' and simply post as ''Conlon'' from now on.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:10:37 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: execuse me Jim
Message:
What dictionary did you use?

What is the traditional western culture in your opinion?

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:16:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: not at all
Message:
Oxford Concise Ninth Edition and rationality and science trumping intuition etc. as Scott described. That's where I always understood the conflict to be.
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:48:04 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't you think that this defenition is narrow
Message:
and racist as it appears to portray that the western culture is the right culture, which am sure a lot of people will not agree with.

Also I don't understand what it is that you have against new age?

My simple understanding is that it is a movement that grew out of the tatars of the 60's and 70's. It quite a wide encompasing defenition. Some of the thing for example are acupuncture and chineese herbal medicine which work, the chineese way of diagnoses of deseases, the ayurveda way of medicine, Iridiology and few other things. I find it a bit immature on our parts to dissmiss these things as irrelevent and non scientific just because we do not understand how they work.

Well what am trying to say is that don't you think that you are over reacting and generalising.

Just a thought, no offence is meant.

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Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 13:59:14 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Don't you think that this defenition is narrow
Message:
Salam:

Not that anyone gives a damn other than myself, but to me at least what we call 'western culture' involves a dominant and recessive strain of thought. The dominant strain is rationalist, and has it's origins in 'the enlightenment' (Locke, Hume, et al). The recessive strain is intuitive and creative, and has it's origins in the 'counter-enlightenment' (Kant, etc.) Another way to look at it is that there's a sort of cyclical process going on with reciprocating periods of conservatism and romanticism. That is probably an older pattern than the enlightenment/counter-enlightenment thing. You can even see it happening in ancient Greece.

All of this is probably related to the fact that no matter how hard you try to nail everything down you're always going to have a hole left over. So sometimes people focus on the hole, and sometimes on the donut. That's just a personal theory though, unsupported by any literature or research.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 15:37:02 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This is no courtroom and we are not on trial !!!
Message:
I get an impression that you tire of the defence attorney role and would really prefer to be a prosecuting attorney.

You remind me of a big fat -assed cop on patrol here on the forum. Don't anyone cross me , this is my turf.

I'm feeling that it's time for you to retire. You're out of touch and the newbies here can do a much better job than you now IMO.

You're sounding like a grumpy old fart,

Hal

Bye the way new age is a massive area to confine to your simplistic definitions and from having checked out a lot of new age stuff in the last few years the overiding impression I got was that it was mainly saying that the age of gurus is gone and that it's now time to empower ourselves. There's some interesting material under the new age section about meditation being a way to change brain states ( non spiritual ). Some quite good psychology about taking responsibility for your own life and not being a victim, not giving one's power away to charismatic figures etc etc...

I reiterate that I 'm not a new age type. I'm a very ordinary self employed businessman who wears boring clothes and has short hair.

It also said in the definition you quoted ' an alternative approach to traditional Western culture ' not as you then said ' a rejection of traditional western culture '

There wasn't much Western culture until it moved from the East. Plenty of European philosophy was greatly developed and influenced by Islamic culture during the crusades and anyway do you consider Judeo- Christian culture as being Western....???

I'm surprised at your spurious attempts at defining the issues here Jim.

Hal

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 15:48:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Strange, I know, but you miss my point, Hal
Message:
Everyone's getting all bunged up in this 'new age' thing but what I meant by it, the part that matters here -- and I say that it DOES matter and matters a lot -- is the most-definitely new age concept of relative truth a sub-part of which seems to be the notion that one's free to rewrite the language whenever one feels 'empowered' to do so. Yes, that's new age and yes that was all part of what did and does go on inthe Maharaji cult. There are other aspects to being New Age and there are, admittedly and like with most things, fuzzy borders on the term. But my concerns are legit al the same. So you don't think so. Big deal.

I'll take your other comments under advisement.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 13:37:10 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Let's get clear on something, huh?
Message:
Listen you guys – hear me out now please… I am going to address the points raised and I will start with some observations relevant to the thrust of my later points.

I have had plenty of time to consider things and I can report that there have been several distinct phases in my evolution of thought about Maharaji and Knowledge. Here is a brief synopsis of these phases:

Phase 1: (1980)

In the ashram I realised that doing what M prescribed to the letter was not necessarily fulfilling – I was often very miserable – I thought I was wrong – gave M the benefit of the doubt – carried on surrendering.

Phase 2: (Late 1981)

Started to trust my judgement started to try to get jobs that I liked rather than deny my skills - this went against the grain with ashram honcho’s – got chucked out by Big Frank from Newcastle ashram because I would not give him the brand new Honda Accord that my mother had bought me because she desperately wanted me to visit her and my dying father – Frank had demanded that I hand it over to him and I felt that this would be a devastating and cruel insult to my mother.

Phase 3: (1983-1993)

Realised that I had to get work and career going fast as at 25 I was in grave danger of missing the boat. Worked all hours to establish career – basically kept in touch with Maharaji but pursued my own life with a vengeance. Had a few girlfriends – got a Porsche a nice house and didn’t feel obliged to give it all to M who seemed to have plenty.

Phase 4: (1995)

Saw through many things – became much closer to Maharaji on occasions through musical service both in LA, the UK and festivals - and was not happy that M was remote and intimidating in effect to those around him. Started to realise a lot of the mechanisms that were in play –not so divine – gave him the benefit of the doubt – went to Amaroo –wrote him honest letter – no reply forthcoming.

Phase 5: (1996-1999)

Needed to really completely take a break from the Maharaji influence to get my health back. I was emotionally fraught by the subject and meditation just reminded me of the traumas - stopped meditating pretty much and certainly avoided satsangs or Maharaji programs.

Started having discussions on internet – needed to talk about this with like-minded people- at first privately and then on ex-cult newsgroup -chatted with Scott Perry and Jim and others and engaged enthusiastically and occasionally heatedly in the discussions – wrote my 'Journey' (still here under the name ‘Anon’) and distributed some print outs of the discussions to premie friends – according to friend Glen Whittaker claimed some notoriety for doing so - Helped a little bit with the website along with others.

Found David Lane’s website ‘The Neural Surfer’ (all about Radhasoami culture) and started correspondence with him via email – bought the book ‘Radhaoami Reality’ by Jurgensmeyer, on his recommendation and became fascinated with finding out about the history of Maharaji and his father.

Lane suggested that I got hold of the rare book 'Paramhans Advait Mat' to obtain the biography of Sarupanand – and with the help of my good transatlantic colleague Scott Talkington (who copied a huge chunk of the book from a US Library and mailed it to me) I started to see that the whole Indian roots issue was really very telling and potentially helpful.

Jean Michel started his website and I supplied him with the information I had found and composed some pages for him detailing the relevant information from David Lane and all the Radhasoami literature I had read. Did quite a bit of scanning and text recognition work on the printed material. The comparisons with early DLM and Radhasoami were striking. All this research helped me to put into context my experiences with Maharaji since 1974.

Phase 6 (2000- present day)

Have felt remarkably cured of emotional involvement and stopped writing anonymously (largely thanks to Jim’s satsang) – started to enjoy feeling free and grown-up about the whole thing enough to even start doing the meditation again –which was something I was curious to see if I could still enjoy - found it pleasant and above all- the more painful association with Maharaji was not a predominant issue any more – no longer feeling obliged etc- see it as a yoga technique with possibly beneficial effects – am wary of attributing too much ‘spiritual’ value to it – recognise that it is a potent way to tap into a nice feeling within the body and mind –how spiritual this is I am not entirely sure.

Start to observe that rudeness and off-topic posting on the forum is putting off a lot of people from posting whom I know and am in discourse with on a regular basis. Acknowledge the need and usefulness of a relatively uncensored public forum such as this and determine to persist in contributing what I consider to be valid input-that will encourage rather than put off people to join in.

There is a borderline between destructive and alienating rudeness (i.e. a dialogue which puts people off from engaging) and carefully worded frankness which helps people to engage and confront their beliefs.
In my opinion those people who resort to responding to premie taunts or whatever with comments like ‘fuck off youloser’ or suchlike – are rising to the bait and may achieve a better effect by attempting a more civil response.

Furthermore I might suggest that the growing case – the building picture that we have - from the many former premies who have expressed their own misgivings about Maharaji, is quite strong enough an entity in itself not to need defending - especially in the gross manner that we see.

One could maybe liken this forum to a club to which entry is unrestricted and the terms are that you behave even though you will not be forced to conform. It would seem that just as in Maharaji’s world, there are some people who take it upon themselves to be as it were ‘bulldogs’ at the door – as if they are providing, with their aggressive barks, some kind of useful function – to deter unwanted trouble-makers, whereas in reality they are just an embarrassment to the organisation and are grimly tolerated.

In my opinion, Sandy (or whoever is the latest victim of the canine guards) actually represents far less of a threat, an undermining force to the tenets and effectiveness of this forum than those who accuse him of this and feel obliged to shut him up.

My take is that all that is wrong, suspect and harmful about the Maharaji cult will collapse – not so much through the excited and aggressive efforts of ‘bulldogs’ but through the growing weight of relatively calm and thoughtfully expressed dissent that all these people like Michael Dettmers, or whoever, are expressing.

I observe that there does seem to be a distinct process involving phases of disengagement that happens with time. This is why I have attempted to list my own phases with some emphasis on the move from an initial need to completely and sometimes angrily reject 'all things Maharaji' – to a hopefully more mature and balanced phase where I can better see what was good about my time in the cult – if indeed there are some redeeming features.

Again, it is possibly maybe to liken this process to the stage when a teenager rejects their parents wholesale – making what might seem an unnecessarily over-the-top display of going to the opposite extremes of what their parents may have encouraged them to do. This natural extreme rejection has a clear purpose for the child to establish its own autonomy as an adult.

Nevertheless, as I can confirm from my own experience, later on in adulthood, possibly when oneself becomes a parent, one actually grows to considerably appreciate certain things about one’s parents. Maybe one can judge ones parents retrospectively with more accuracy.
Maharaji as a more perverse ‘parental’ figure surely needs to be similarly rejected if one seeks to re-claim one’s health and autonomy, after having been so extraordinarily and unfortunately cultified for so long.

Jim wrote :
I think the operative theme is the first describer, a rejection of traditional Western culture. Sadly, that includes rationality and science. Oh well.
Now, what's really bugging me is some of the things I see people say about the 'heavy', 'excessive' and 'unconstructive' negativity here. You know, the 'middle ground' people like Mike, Patrick and so many others here seem to favour. Listen, a wise old Chinese guy once told me something very sacred and holy: you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
We were had, fucked over, depleted and kept around for further financial draining and parts. It is absolutely amazing to me to see otherwise intelligent people trying to find any value in our cult involvement or, worse still, our cult leader. Please, before you reject what I'm saying out of hand, do what I was asking Mike to do. Consider what you would think of this thing if you'd never gotten involved but you just knew about it all in detail. I can't imagine any one in that situation doing anything but simply calling the matter simply and fairly. And what would they call it? A worthless misadventure. About as beneficial as taking on a parasite, an intestinal worm you can feed for ten or fifteen years.'But didn't you get anything out of the experience?' 'Yeah, well I met a lot of nice nurses, I didn't get fat and, well, I learnt an awful lot about parasites I didn't know before'

I don’t for a moment reject anything you say here Jim – I agree and also understand that there is no future in trying to redeem the intrinsically irredeemable part of Maharaji and knowledge.

Personally, I am being quite honest and careful to ‘call a spade a spade’ in these discussions. The fact is that if I appear to occupy middle ground that is quite simply because there conspicuously is middle ground in this unfolding saga. This fact is not changed because people who are otherwise (i.e. less) informed see the whole thing starkly one way or another.

For me the whole Maharaji thing was not entirely a misadventure because I for one – most importantly –did and still do find meditation an occasionally rewarding practice. Secondly I am by no means ignoring the downside of the pompous means through which I came across this most simple of instructions. That is why I continue to seek to expose the inglorious side of this guru dependency trip to the best of my understanding for the benefit of others and myself.

I didn’t meet too many nice nurses but I went into this whole thing and meet, and continue to meet, very nice people – even if now it is changing more or less into a society of people who are effectively ex-premies (whether they are loath to be thought of as such or not).

What I am aware of is that I have considerable empathy for those, like Mike Finch, who are working out their feelings about Maharaji in their own way and in their own time; and I have absolutely no wish to force them to confront issues that they are not comfortable to talk about or indeed discuss in a manner which they do not like. To me that attitude, as Mike Finch pointed out, is exactly the sort of manipulation that most borderline premies, wounded enough already in their hearts by their cult deception, are most keen to avoid like the plague.

Let me tell you that as we speak, (not literally of course) I am engaged in several fascinating dialogues with old premie friends, some who have been in full time service for as long as 28 years, who are ‘well known’ and who are now quite distinctly in what I called Phase 5 of recovery.

I would urge you to appreciate the difficulty these guys have in entering into discussions here when they see such aggressive criticism awaiting them – when what they need most is a lot of love, empathy, understanding and most of all – time.
No wonder they choose to go back to their old homes, where they feel happy, maybe to the country where nature doesn’t judge them – where they can literally forget their trauma for a while.

Believe me, we have an onus of responsibility here to refrain from judging people too hard – what is needed is an atmosphere of acceptance even for people who entertain ‘new age’ beliefs or whatever. I for one, am not threatened by people's beliefs no matter how far-fetched they be. I suggest that some of you guys actually try to accept that it is possible to deconstruct the cult quite effectively without this constant taking offence at people’s current beliefs.

I have seen that sociologist guy whom some revere, Dawkins, on the TV here positively sweating and jumping with frustration that nobody could see how clever and right he was.

The sad thing was that although his theories were reasonably valid, he was so clearly personally and emotionally consumed with justifying himself that he came across as an insensitive, rather pathetic person who could not bear that others did not affirm his brilliant insights.

He needed to bash others with his science, not so much as to be helpful or enlightening, but in order to win and to gloat over the ‘wrongness’ of others – this ignoble emotive charge to his words effectively served to throttle his arguments at birth, simply because the casual observer was overwhelmingly and initially impressed not with his salient points but more with the flabberghastingly graceless self-importance and lack of communication skills of the guy and above all his rather puerile rudeness.

When I am teaching my 5 year old daughter music, which is arguably something I am quite accomplished in, I have to exercise an awful lot of empathy for her condition otherwise I can get very frustrated when she does not quickly grasp things that to me are so simple.

How long before will it be before you guys wise up that we need to treat people here with some respect and not like people who have committed some offence?

See, the old adage 'do unto others as you would be done by' rather falls apart when you're a sado-masochist! I.e. We may welcome people confronting us with as much brutal frankness as they can muster, but that does not mean that others are as robust as ourselves.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 23:42:17 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Let's get clear on something, huh?
Message:
Dear Patrick,
So nice to read you again. I have seen your name, Patrick(formerly Anon) but somehow thought that when you were 'outed' a long time ago that your name was something other than Patrick so thought maybe there had been another Anon posting at another time.
I always enjoyed reading your posts, found you intelligent, articulate, sensitive and sincere and thus found this post as well.
I agree that in leaving the cult as well as in most if not all other facets of our lives that some motivational proding can be productive but being coerced or bullied into conformity to someone else's standards is counter productive. I have seen that in my own life circumstances at this time.
I am so glad to read that you are firmly out and now feel safe using your own name as it points to your arriving at a firm ground of your position on this issue of m and the cult.
Congratulations and I'll look forward to seeing you here helping others along the path of exit. I have stayed away from f5 for some time for a number of reasons, circumstances in my life but also because of the nasty atmosphere that is often here.
I have thought that my presence here was postive, to be an example of someone who's life had moved totally beyond m's influence even while I continue meditating and other times felt I was of little or now use on this forum other then for my own interest. Your post gives me the motivation to try again to be supportive of those working their way through the issues of their envolvement and exit from the cult.
Love and best wishes to you,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 23:46:04 (GMT)
From: Patrick (Anon)
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Thanks Robyn -nice 2 hear from u 2! (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:23:05 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Patrick, thank you for taking the time
Message:
to compose this long and carefully thought out post.

Thank you for sharing your research on the Radhasoami cults. This helped me to make my intellectual break with the gooroo and will probably help many more of the newcomers.

Thank you for your calm voice of reason and for the many sensible arguments you put forth for behaving more reasonably with newcomers.

In deference to your seniority here I will stop using the name ''Patrick'' and simply post as ''Conlon'' from now on.

I am very grateful to you for many things.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:16:10 (GMT)
From: Patrick (Formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: Patrick, thank you for taking the time
Message:
Thanks Patrick - I think it works fine for you to continue to post as Patrick Conlon - whatever .

I enjoyed the posts I read of yours very much by the way.

Another Patrick

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Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 00:12:43 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Patrick (Formerly Anon)
Subject: Who's gonna be ''Paddy'' and who ''Pat?'' NT
Message:
v
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:39:52 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: I'm afraid I don't get it
Message:
Patrick,

What kind of 'aggressive criticism' are the 'well known' 'phase 5' people afraid of? If they want to talk about Maharaji and their involvement in his organization, I really don't think they will be attacked in any way. I think Michael Dettmers is a good example.

Michael showed up here earlier last year, and while saying a few interesting things, was in the main very protective of Maharaji, and didn't want to say much. Frankly, I was kind of shocked at how he was treated with kid gloves, including by Jim, given lots of time and leeway to say what he wanted to say. We did have a frank discussion about why Michael was reacting the way he was, and we did try to get him to open up, and he did. Now that Michael is treated with almost fawning reverence here, although nothing is universal, but I think his contributions are universally acknowledged, except by a few premies who come here occasionally.

Take Mark Appleman as another example, someone that I think both you and I know. I think Mark most definitely has 'new age' beliefs, or at least he did. Some people might disagree with them, but I haven't seen Mark attacked because he likes astrology. He has had some interesting insights in to Maharaji and the cult, and I think people have also acknowledged that.

So, I'm afraid I don't see why your friends should be afraid. Surely, if they want to defend Maharaji, they will be questioned and perhaps criticized, but hey, that is to be expected on a forum like this. If they want to go off topic, sure, somebody will likely disagree with their opinions, because we have all kinds of viewpoints here. But I really think your and their fears about this is way over-stated. If they talk about their involvement in the cult, and how they are trying to come to terms with it, and if they don't attack ex-premies as some kind of hateful group, then they will be just fine and, in fact, get a lot of support.

I think the example of Sandy is also misplaced. Sandy LIKES the brawl. He likes to incite people by what he says. He rather enjoys it, I think. He is free to do that, but I wouldn't be blaming the people who want to engage in his jousts. As I have said, I think people play into his game to much and it clogs up the forum, but that's why I just stopped reading those threads.

Patrick, can you explain what it is these new ex-premies might say that you or they think will be attacked? And can you explain why being disagreed with is so traumatic for them?

Joe

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:06:07 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'm afraid I don't get it
Message:
Hi Joe,

What kind of 'aggressive criticism' are the 'well known' 'phase 5' people afraid of? If they want to talk about Maharaji and their involvement in his organization, I really don't think they will be attacked in any way. I think Michael Dettmers is a good example.

Both the people you have mentioned , Mark and Mike Dettmers are hardly shy retiring flowers now are they? No, I am referring to your average sensitive confused premie who maybe needs to talk but is shy.

I am not sure that these Phase 5 folks do want 'to talk about Maharaji and their involvement in his organization'. Certainly they do to the extent that they are happy, if not a little tentative, to talk with me privately about it. I am acutely aware that the fact that they know and trust me is a factor which facilitates this kind of private discussion.

They are wary at present of posting here because they are possibly over sensitive to criticism – and do not want to be baited by bullies – to have the worst brought out of them. In other words their cult involvement has left them fragile and in need of more sensitive treatment!

What some tell me also, is that they try not to take any of what's happened to them too seriously any more. They hear of this forum second hand, and are told that it is a sort of anti-premie cult (where’d they get that idea ??) and they simply cannot be bothered with it, considering that to get involved would be like jumping from one weird trip to another.

They don't have a problem in principle with people doing or saying what they need to in order to heal themselves but currently feel that it works best for them to just get on with their lives leaving Maharaji firmly as a thing of the past

So, I'm afraid I don't see why your friends should be afraid. Surely, if they want to defend Maharaji, they will be questioned and perhaps criticized, but hey, that is to be expected on a forum like this. If they want to go off topic, sure, somebody will likely disagree with their opinions, because we have all kinds of viewpoints here. But I really think your and their fears about this is way over-stated. If they talk about their involvement in the cult, and how they are trying to come to terms with it, and if they don't attack ex-premies as some kind of hateful group, then they will be just fine and, in fact, get a lot of support.

But ex-premies are 'some kind of hateful group' as far as they can see – they don’t want to be jumped on! What I am simply saying is that some people are not prepared jump in at the deep end because they are genuinely confused and hurt over their involvement and do not relish the idea of becoming the laughing-stock of cocksure ex-premies with a tendency towards teasing– in effect they feel out of their depth and ex-premies are often quick to point this out – sometimes unkindly.

Patrick, can you explain what it is these new ex-premies might say that you or they think will be attacked? And can you explain why being disagreed with is so traumatic for them?

This forum is fundamentally about challenging former beliefs and therefore nobody who posts here should reasonably expect to escape criticism.

These premies are still confused regarding their involvement with Maharaji –that is clear. What is also clear is that when people’s ideas are challenged with some skill, sensitivity and kindness then growth of understanding is more likely to happen than if they are expected to concede to some aggressive inquisition. Thus being confronted by a kind person can be rewarding and healing whilst being confronted by a person who is offended by the other person is going to be traumatic.

With Sandy for instance, whilst he may indeed be spoiling for an ugly fight – it’s only like minded people that give him the pleasure. Hey, if that is what the general consensus here finds acceptible then so be it. I’ve personally got better things to waste my time wading through degenerative tustles.

I am however most interested in arguments that are going somewhere.

I hope that answers your question Joe
Patrick

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:49:37 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: I'm afraid I don't get it
Message:
I certainly have read elsewhere that since forum and email communication lacks the facial and body language and inperson vibe of in person contact, that we assume more about the one we
read and dont have the easy going response.

One CEO of a major company complained that company email was
terrible in that it bred a level of communication that had real drawbacks. Not that I can remember all the details of his meaning of 'drawback's'.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:42:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: I'm afraid I don't get it
Message:
Both the people you have mentioned , Mark and Mike Dettmers are hardly shy retiring flowers now are they? No, I am referring to your average sensitive confused premie who maybe needs to talk but is shy.

No, they are not, but they are examples to you and to everyone else that people are not attacked when they come here. That was my point. Mark and Michael perhaps had more courage to venture in, but if someone really is 'sensitive and confused' they might want to read for awhile before they say anything, as I think has been the case with most people.

I think what you are saying is more that these people aren't ready to talk about their involvement, at least not publicly. It isn't really a problem of the forum, it's a problem with them. They just need more time. Any public forum would likely be equally as intimidating to them, because absolutely anyone can read and comment on what they say. I firmly believe that would be the very best thing for them, as it was for me, but people can wait until they are ready to do that.

And I think their fears are likely unjustified, and based on the fact that they are just coming out of a cult based on fear. That's likely where the fear is coming from, not from people who might question them, and sometimes you have to face those fears and realize they aren't real. They may also be afraid that other cult members, or even Maharaji, whom they may on some level still think is God, might find out about it. I think you ought to explore with them where those fears are really coming from.

I know this based on my own experience. It wasn't just a fear of being challenged and criticized, it was a fear of having beliefs I had protected in the cult, out of layers of fears, being questioned, and seeing them fall away like so much sawdust, and also some teensy, deep, programming, that Maharaji might actually be god. Really, you have to face the fears, because otherwise the cult wins.

Maybe that's what you ought to be telling your friends encouraging them to jump in. People like Kelly and Marianne, for example, said they thought they might get flamed, but were surprised by all the support they felt here.

They are wary at present of posting here because they are possibly over sensitive to criticism – and do not want to be baited by bullies – to have the worst brought out of them. In other words their cult involvement has left them fragile and in need of more sensitive treatment!

Patrick, I would recommend these people get some therapy, or perhaps meet with a group of ex-premies and talk things out. Not everyone is ready to publicly talk about things, especially if they are sensitive. I wouldn't recommend any form of public discussion until someone is more sure of what they feel, and I think that's what happens here, and reading this place will really help. When people like Selene, Kelly, as well as Michael and Mark, get a little clearer on what they feel and what happened to them, then they usually venture out into the light of day, and then they are pretty glad this place exists. But I think you are blaming the forum for not being cozy enough for them, when any public airing likely would not be.

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Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 14:24:10 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'm afraid I don't get it
Message:
Joe:

I think Michael Finch represents the sort of attitude that an emerging ex ought to adopt, but I honestly haven't seen many like him. For most people their 'good' has gotten inextricably tied up with their 'bad' as a result of the cult, and also just because that's human nature. Communication (or maybe *ideal* communication) happens when people are able to retain and differentiate their 'good' while surrendering their 'bad,' even if they get absolutely no support for their 'good' from anyone. So that is certainly, at least in part, *their problem*. I'm not sure how the forum could accomodate it, except by having someone like Finch around as an example. Let's see what happens with him.

On the other hand, flame wars can be really tedious. People on the cycling forums have taken to spelling 'helmet' as 'h*lm*t' just so the filters don't automatically exclude the post. Fortunately we, at least, don't have the cross-posting problem of Usenet.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 00:23:49 (GMT)
From: Charles S
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: new people posting
Subject: Advice for newbies...
Message:
When I first started to post here, Joe started questioning me. I kind of dreaded that, but quickly learned that 1.) Having to explain my statements helped me to better understand what I was trying to say, and how people might interpret that. 2.) It helped me to understand how other peoples experiences could be very different from my own, and how that might color their perception of what I was trying to say. It also helped me to better appreciate other peoples experiences, perspectives and feelings.

In other words, it all worked out for the good! I didn't feel attacked, and felt more clear and confident afterwards. The hardest part of begining to post, for me, was that I had never posted on a public forum before. It was all new, it took me a while to learn the mechanics of posting, and how to communicate effectivly. But hey, that's life, a learning experience. I'm still learning.

Read for a while before you start posting, and when you start, keep it simple, till you get the hang of it. Most of the people hear are pretty nice. Give your self some time to adjust, especially if you haven't posted on a forum before. Learning something new is always hardest right at the begining.

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Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 01:19:41 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: Thanks Charles, I think that's good advice (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 23:42:28 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'm afraid I don't get it
Message:
Joe - a brilliant example of my criticism is taking place right now. I have just put the phone down after a chat with my former ashram brother Mike Finch - now he clearly is a classic case of someone who is gradually (emphasis on 'gradually') revising his views on Maharaji and who is reticent about getting involved here.

As we have seen he has already been summarily -immediately -taken to task on some stuff he said. That is to be expected I guess.Talking with him he sounded frankly a little taken aback by being suddenly confronted by Gerry , Jim and the rest - He told me that he is uncertain about responding at length here since he was basically simply drawn in by responding to Bazza or whatever, and not so much to defend his current standpoint which he fears is not going to be so well received here.

I told him that he would indeed need to have the courage to defend his statements and that if they proved indefensible he may benefit from revising them accordingly.

Mike was as close to Maharaji as Dettmers in the early days and in my opinion it is worth treating him 'courteously' if we want to benefit from his many salient insights. As it is is I would not be entirely surprised if he is not so inspired to remain long I'm afraid. We'll see.

I agree with the thrust of your previous post by the way. I think your points are very valid and I don't want to sound too critical of this forum or those 'bulldogs' who cut people to the quick. Of course I personally appreciate their talents for incisiveness and clarity on many occasions and merely seek to call for a little balance. I wonder whether if they were to be a little more laid back we wouldn't see a crop of fresh people posting here. I think that would be good.
You are right that some of my friends aren't really ready to post on a public forum yet.

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Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 00:21:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: Mike jumped in and got wet. That's all
Message:
Joe - a brilliant example of my criticism is taking place right now. I have just put the phone down after a chat with my former ashram brother Mike Finch - now he clearly is a classic case of someone who is gradually (emphasis on 'gradually') revising his views on Maharaji and who is reticent about getting involved here.

As we have seen he has already been summarily -immediately -taken to task on some stuff he said. That is to be expected I guess.Talking with him he sounded frankly a little taken aback by being suddenly confronted by Gerry , Jim and the rest - He told me that he is uncertain about responding at length here since he was basically simply drawn in by responding to Bazza or whatever, and not so much to defend his current standpoint which he fears is not going to be so well received here.

I told him that he would indeed need to have the courage to defend his statements and that if they proved indefensible he may benefit from revising them accordingly.

Your advice was good. Period. Yes, Mike got challenged on what he said. Mind you, he seemed to almost invite the attention, both directly and as a natural result to what he said:

So I am not a 'premie' in the cultish sense; nor am I an 'ex-premie'. Whether there is anything you can take from M and K that is positive and worthwhile is a question that, for me, can only be answered privately and personally. Sorry I don't fit in to either camp ! I am anticipating negative reaction, but I don't really care. I am standing on my own two feet, and enjoying it !! I certainly care if in the past I personally added to any of your pain, bitterness, whatever; and as I have already said, if so I am sorry. I wish all of you well -- and if that sounds wishy-washy, so be it !

Mike was as close to Maharaji as Dettmers in the early days and in my opinion it is worth treating him 'courteously' if we want to benefit from his many salient insights. As it is is I would not be entirely surprised if he is not so inspired to remain long I'm afraid. We'll see.

I'd love to hear more from Mike, especially if he has some special, relevant experiences with our former cult leader, but I'm not so sure he's got any, let alone many, 'salient insights' -- yet!

Mike, if you're reading this, I'm sorry you didn't get a chance to respond to my long post before it went inactive. Obviously, there's a practical problem at times for new posters in that they're often addressed by a bunch of people, each one wanting a peice of ... oops! I mean, wanting to talk with the new prey.. I mean, person ... oh you know what I mean!

Anyway, that problem's compounded when the new person, as did you, leads with their chin a bit. I mean, tell me you're not asking for it when you come in telling us that you were never caught up like we were (I'd still love to see your argument on this) and implying that there was some golden path none of us ever knew of that took one -- you, in fact -- right through the cult maze and out the other side unfazed. Sorry, Mike, but if you're going to start off like that I'd say that it's you who are challenging us. Anyway, I said it all in my prior post, now inactive.

Back to you, Patrick:

I agree with the thrust of your previous post by the way. I think your points are very valid and I don't want to sound too critical of this forum or those 'bulldogs' who cut people to the quick.

You really see me like that? Too bad. No, honestly, I mean it. I'm unhappy, quite frankly, that after all the time we've done this together that's how you characterize me. Oh well, 'bulldog' it is, I guess. Ruff, ruff, grr.....

Of course I personally appreciate their talents for incisiveness and clarity on many occasions and merely seek to call for a little balance. I wonder whether if they were to be a little more laid back we wouldn't see a crop of fresh people posting here. I think that would be good.

Hell, Patrick, if it's numbers we're looking for we could do that in an instant. I'm not stupid. I know how to be nice for nice's sake. But what's the point anyway? Just to get a whole bunch of people saying 'hi' to each other? Forget it. Not interested.

Anyway, you know what might be interesting? To get Dettmers' two cents on all this. After all, he's one who got it coming and going when he first began posting. He's also the poster boy of the 'At-least-I-had-what-it-takes-to-get-past-my-own-bullshit' movement. Mike? Dettmers? You here? What do you think? Tone it down? Tone it up? Either? Neither? What?

You are right that some of my friends aren't really ready to post on a public forum yet.

That's obviously all your fault. Report to HQ in the morning, Anon. And yes, the airport's are being monitored. Don't try anything foolish.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:15:38 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Patrick you said it well again
Message:
All the emails that I have had from lurkers are because I am NOT angry and have said that I meditate still. Most of the premies who have stuck with the cult till now are not hurting or angry like the guys who were abused by the ashram system.

Many of them are simply bored or disgusted by the sterilty of the new churchlike noncult. But they need help to dissociate there satisfaction with the yoga from their disgust at the Fraud's behavior.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:35:07 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: A response to you, Patrick
Message:
Patrick,

Firstly, have we met? My name is John Brauns and I was in Brighton ashram for pretty much the whole of 1974, and of course knew Mike there.

Anyway, a fine post (although a little long for most here perhaps!), and I think I agree generally, but the unclear part is where to draw the line when conversing with new people here. I've been out about two years now, and for most of that time I've sort of cruised along, happy to be out of the cult. But recently, I've uncovered, or more clearly recognised, some more cult thinking in my mind. So from this, and of course the earlier breaking free process, I think I can see cult thinking in other posters here who claim to have left the cult.

Now my question is this - is it OK, in your opinion, to challenge posters on perceived cult thinking, as long as the challenge is courteous of course? Or should I keep quiet and wait until the poster sees their cult thinking for themselves?

I'm sticking with the first answer for the time being, as I think it's more honest.

John.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:09:38 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: A response to you, Patrick
Message:
Hi John
have we met? My name is John Brauns and I was in Brighton ashram for pretty much the whole of 1974, and of course knew Mike there.

Probably, I was first in the scene in 1974 – I was a long haired 17 year old who played the guitar somewhat shyly. Bob Dennis and Tim Green and Noel Philpot used to provide the music. There was a girl called Jill – I lived with my parents in Hurstpierpoint (in the country) at that time. I don’t remember you although the name rings a bell.

is it OK, in your opinion, to challenge posters on perceived cult thinking, as long as the challenge is courteous of course? Or should I keep quiet and wait until the poster sees their cult thinking for themselves?

I think that it is appropriate for anyone to challenge anyone with whom you disagree. I think that it is usually more effective (if you want to be understood) to be diplomatic and courteous, even when people are otherwise inclined. To meet anger with anger solves nothing. To react to someone’s passion with another impassioned reaction usually spells conflict- deadlock - in my experience. What works best usually is a considered and measured challenge. What’s wrong with a little kindness? It usually gets results.

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Date: Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 20:27:48 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Oh My God I didn't did I????
Message:
Who first gave you satsang? Was it some bespectacled youth with some newspapers and leaflets on the top of a hill at a free rock concert in Sussex?

John.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 17:35:35 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: thanks Patrick (Anon)
Message:
I often wonder what would have happened to me if I had just dazed away the 80's and NOT worked on my career. That's a scary thought and I wonder how many premies are finding themselves in a situation of not being trained for anything professional. I'd be pissed as hell if I were in that situation and had just left the cult.

We went through very similar phases except I never could get into any service in the 90's.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 17:28:13 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Great post Patrick, definitely a 'Must Read'
Message:
Very interesting, and very timely too! I don’t have much time right now, so, just a couple of comments…

When I first visited this website a year or so ago, I was surprised at how much emphasis there was on the “early days”, and as for the historical background, I wasn’t in the least bit interested in that. It seemed to me that you were all living in the past!!

However over the last few months, during the process of “waking up”, it has become much more important to see M and the cult in it’s historic context. So thanks for that! I also found the articles on Charisma very helpful in understanding some of the extraordinary experiences I had around M.

As for this forum! The first few times I visited here, I was really put off by all the anger and apparent negativity, but I was also fascinated by the openness of the discussion. When I first posted here I was quite overwhelmed by the warmth of the response and I have received a lot of help and support, and some very good advice. I think maybe I was lucky in my timing, because it does seem to go crazy here sometimes and some people get very rude (in both senses of the word!!) I think it’s a real shame if it’s putting people off. It certainly puts me off.

So come on you hounds, tone it down a bit, there’s good dogs!!

Kelly

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:02:06 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Let's get clear on something, huh?
Message:
Hi Patrick,

I suppose I'm one of the bulldogs at the gate. In 'real life' I'm a pussy cat. Women, kids, and animals love me. That's about the extent of my CV.

I'm not gonna change at your behest. I reserve the right to discriminate between the people I discern as newbies wavering, or on the fence, soon to be ex-premies and time wasting wankers like the Rev. Sandford Pass.

Sandy deserves what he gets here, IMO. My whole objective in treating him to large dollops of 'puerile rudeness' is to get him to shut up and lurk, if not leave altogether.

And I'm not about to take one ounce of shit from that jerk-off runamuck.

Sorry if this upsets you and others of a more sensitive nature.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 15:33:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Ruff! Ruff! Grrrrrr...RUFF!
Message:
Another response, Patrick.

I must say I almost used that same subject line yesterday to reply to the other Patrick's 'go for the jugular, Jim' post. Like, really, just yesterday -- well I have to tell you this -- one of the articling students in my office, who's helping me with this case I'm trying now, asked me, in a tense situation, if I was always so 'easy going'. I laughed and told her that in this venue I'm considered anything but.

But, Patrick, I don't know. Sometimes it seems like all the cult shit is a like a major toxic oil spill. Say we were on a ship, the H.M.S. Hamster or something. And it hit an iceberg and now it's sinking. And now we've made it safe to shore but, initially, at least, we're covered with oil. We eventually scrub most of it off, yet we stand on this beach and see patches of the goop just keep on hitting the shores. True, we don't have to stay on that beach, we could walk away. But, for now anyway, we're not doing that. We're standing on shore, looking out at the sinking ship and watching its gooey mess keep washing ashore.

Well, that stuff's disgusting! You want to keep it away, to get rid of it quickly and firmly.

Likewise, I think that any pro-m sentiment is naturally and properly going to be completely 'cleaned up' here. The more of it washes up, the more you see the clean-up squads.

Or maybe it's like white blood cells .....

The problem I have with it all isn't that we thus create an 'uncomfortable' resting spot for the person gradually releasing themselves from the cult's stifling bonds. I just look at that as the practical result of not being able to be all things to all people. There are many here who give no truck whatsoever to Maharaji. Not just me, of course. Lots of people. Well these people are always going to be like those clean-up crews and yes, at times, it's going to be ugly as the crews keep hitting the beach, again and and again. They / we aren't robots, you know?

But the bigger problem, I see, is that of getting stuck in this Sysiphian task. I mean, I ask myself, 'is this thing ever going to be OVER? Like when?' And, as I usually do, I answer, 'probably not' I get frightened, quite frankly, about taking all this shit on. Like, who cares about the tentative tenderfoots? What about ME? :)

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 14:49:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Thanks, good post BUT, there's a big difference
Message:
When I am teaching my 5 year old daughter music, which is arguably something I am quite accomplished in, I have to exercise an awful lot of empathy for her condition otherwise I can get very frustrated when she does not quickly grasp things that to me are so simple.

How long before will it be before you guys wise up that we need to treat people here with some respect and not like people who have committed some offence?

Your five year-old is pre-rational. So how does she relate to people here? This should be interesting. So what kind of respect do you envision?

'Let's see what you did today, Sandy. Oh MY! Did YOU do that? All by yourself?! Well aren't we a big boy now?!'

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:14:37 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, good post BUT, there's a big difference
Message:
Your five year-old is pre-rational. So how does she relate to people here? This should be interesting. So what kind of respect do you envision?

'Let's see what you did today, Sandy. Oh MY! Did YOU do that? All by yourself?! Well aren't we a big boy now?!'

Hey! My five year old is not entirely pre-rational ! (whatever that's supposed to mean I'm guessing) - She can think pretty straight for a little nipper actually.

I envision the sort of respect that you see me according people I guess - i.e. I try to avoid losing my patience with people in a discussion or argument. My primary concern actually is that the more rude exchanges here waste a lot of space and obfuscate the more insightful posts.

Can we get off the endless debate soon as to how to treat people and just do the right thing? Clear some space for people who have something new and interesting to say..like Mike Finch would almost certainly have an extremely interesting perspective on Maharaji that I would love to hear.

Mike just emailed me to say hi..I was frankly a little concerned that the poster below might have been an imposter but it turns out this is not the case. I hope he has the time to tell us his thoughts -and hey..give the guy some space.

Gotta go..back later.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:30:14 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No more Mr Nice Guy.
Message:
Hi Jim,

I agree with your sentiments.

Leaving the cult is not an instant thing. It's taken me over two years to get some kind of focus on the Fatguru, and his techniques, and I don't think I've reached my destination yet.

If you take a step back, see where everyone was, and see where they are now. Maybe people who are leaving, go through the new agey middle ground before reaching the mob pouring petrol into milk bottles.

It was ages before my attitude to the Lard was anything by sympathy for his fucked up situation. But as it was pointed out to me on the forum, at some point, everyone has to take responsibility for their own decisions and actions.

You've been around here longer than most Jim. Have you noticed this gradual change of perspective with many posters here?

Anth the Old Age Mystit

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:12:24 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: AJW and Gerry
Subject: No more Mr Nice Guy.
Message:
If you take a step back, see where everyone was, and see where they are now. Maybe people who are leaving, go through the new agey middle ground before reaching the mob pouring petrol into milk bottles.

Yes Anth, it was partly your post that prompted me to consider and comment on the stages I have been through recently. (see my above post).

Personally I think I have passed through the 'mob pouring petrol into milk bottles' stage - and maybe have reached a stage where I have a less violent reaction towards premie-speak.

If people like Gerry (hello Gerry) want to swear at people - I accept that is their right . I strongly question the constructiveness of this tack. My plea for tolerance and politeness is made in good faith because I believe that is the way forward with premies - not because I expect people to do as I suggest.

Maybe some will see the sense in this.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 07:15:02 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Let's get clear on something, huh?
Message:
Jim:

Thanks for the tip, but I honestly think New Age and the Maharaji cult are two different topics. I grant you that the Maharaji cult is one of many 'sorta new age' religions. Except for the one that really sucked me in I don't take them very seriously, because I'd never know whether they were right anyway, at least by the standards they employ. (How do you tell which shell the pea is under, if the pea is invisible?)

I take the rescue of the enlightenment project pretty seriously, but quoting definitions from the OED is not engaging at the level that'll have much effect. I suggest that if this topic is all that vital to you, that you do a little reading beyond Dawkins (fine fellow that he is). Michael can probably point you toward the main protagonists. Hell, in your own field read Karl Llewellyn's lament at his discovery that there are often two diametrically opposing 'correct' verdicts in a case. There ought to be a damn law.

So, I'm against fuzzy thinking too, but I'm sort of pragmatic about there being a cure-all. Relatively error free will have to be good enough, though I'm sure open to making things better if I can. And I'm not sure where I'd administer the cure anyway--to the person or persons making the haphazard observations, or to the world being observed. Which is sicker? I mean, I think it's pretty sick that we still tend to think that men like Ghengis Kahn and Attila the Hun are worthy of admiration, and backstabbing intrigue in the Australian outback is some kind of passion play. I thought we covered all that in the class on 'inhumanity and unreason.' (Well, I knew we didn't, but maybe we ought to.)

But I'm with you. Let's lay waste the landscape. It's all nearly perverse, so let's at least *nearly* lay waste the landscape. But please don't define 'new age' any more. It forces me to recall the girl who telepathically communicated with space ships. Jesus!

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:55:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re-read, Scott
Message:
Thanks for the tip, but I honestly think New Age and the Maharaji cult are two different topics.

That's what I said.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:19:13 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Care for a donut?
Message:
Jim:

True enough, you said you had two things you wanted to clarify: new age obscurantism and cultic exploitation. But re-reading your post it seems clear that you think the first is essential to the second. I put it to you that the cult would survive just fine without new age rhetoric, which is not the origin but the effect of intellectual and moral confusion. That's what I mean by there being two issues.

As a compleat aside, I can prove that the universe is a donut: First, the sum of all the angles around all the vertices 'V' in the universe is 360*V degrees. Second, the sum of all the angles around all the vertices of any closed 'singly connected' object (like a basketball or a refrigerator or a human being) 'small v' is 360*v+720. Thirdly, the sum of all the angles around all the vertices of a 'multiply connected object' (of which the torus is the archetype) 'small t' is 360*t. Hence at the point that t = S the universe is, topologically at least, a torus (donut); which begs the question of what to do about the hole.

I suppose that a human being who happens to have at least two orifices open at the same time is also topologically a torus, so I guess both humans and dunkers were created in the image of the universe (or the other way around). This could be why Santa places a finger in his nose when he rises up the chimney, but that's just a theory.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:22:18 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: t=V, I mean (nt).
Message:
Sheesh.
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 13:19:42 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re-read, Scott
Message:
Jim:

Really, you said that? I need a Toastmasters topic, but can't stand to read any more about the New Age movement. I'll take your word for it. I got a great New Age massage once, and she only charged me $20.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 06:13:43 (GMT)
From: Don Diego
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Let's get clear on something, huh?
Message:
I thought you took a vacation
what happen'd..the ole'lady left looking for a kind heart
why doth thou waist thou's time talking 'bout
misadventures...so be ..it..
you don't like...fine...
why do you 'mind' the wurld ?
why...
there are many causes, you can devote yourself to..
to 'righten' whats rong...
join the peace corps...invent a new light bulb...
something constructive...butt noooooooooooooo
jimbo...must ride his high horse...and tell the wurld ..how
he....HE....was mistaken...
ooohhhh poor poor jimbo....we're sobing....gotta go jimbo...
i'm working on recounting the florida votes even if dickhead
gore is too chicken to hasta diego
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:28:07 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Don Diego
Subject: Mayvbe you should try the Spanish forum Don.
Message:
Your English is a little difficult to decipher.

Maybe capital letters and full stops would help.

You are not communicating very well.

Were you under the influence of third party chemicals when you wrote your letter?

Anth the grammatically correct and pollution free- at least for another hour or so.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 07:34:13 (GMT)
From: Brian S.
Email: None
To: Don Diego
Subject: Hey Don Diego, sober up and learn to spell (nt)
Message:
whacko
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:42:08 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: all
Subject: Nice discussion. Thanks to all of you.
Message:
I could not bear it if everyone here were Rottweillers. Nor I could I bear it if this were some cozy warm-fuzzie heavily upholstered landing pad for newcomers. I am just very glad that there are both points of view and that not everyone agrees on anything much other than that we have parted company with the socalled perfect master.

So much democratic disagreement on the forum is exactly what is needed to wean newcomers from feeling that they have to conform to anything. We have all escaped from an undemocratic and in fact feudalistic cult which places so much emphasis on ''team'' work and ''synchronization'' that the forum with its many diverse voices is exhilirating and liberating.

Thanks to all of you.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:57:06 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: AJW: Registration and camping fee
Message:
If you are going there to catch snakes and dig waterholes it's free. You even get to be picked up.

Would like to know from someone if it is possible to take ones' own tent. Anyone? What is the rent for 3 days? Any of you knuckle heads wants to come.

Oh and bring some stinck bombs with you. And for those that don't like it, tough tities,

rawat still sucks

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:45:38 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: It's a bloody fortune salam.
Message:
Hi Salam,

Somebody sent me the registration details this morning. They said that registration is going to be $AUS900 Australian, and to stay in the dormitory tents will be another $AUS2000.

It's fucking expensive.

I was also told that the cost for the new training seminars, called 'Foundation Training', cost $US350 to attend, plus accomodation and transport.

I believe these sessions are to encourage premies to 'co-operate', in donating funds to the sinking tanker of crap.

It's as we figured. A decreasing pool of premies are being hit for more and more cash.

Anth the economist

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:41:12 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: re: ' Foundation Training'
Message:
This seems like a form of advanced training like EST or Scientology still offers. The idea here is to prove you are good enough to be accepted for this ' special' course. Prove it by forking over the $$$.

Never could keep EST and Scientology straight because they were definetely cults while I had the K of all K's.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 04:53:59 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: what a place
Message:
Just heard from an old friend who is living now in Sydney.
He was surprised at all the toxic things that live there - the snakes etc... and this is coming from someone who lived in Arizona desert!
He mentioned saltwater 'gators. Are there really such a thing?
Poor guy wait til I tell him of the danger just west at Ivory Rock - Amarroo.

selene - get it strate like I want it like I think mememe

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:05:59 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: We call em salties,they
Message:
are salt water crocodiles.not sure what diff is between crocs and 'gators.both takes big fucken' chuchks out of yer that is for sure.I don't think there are any crocs at Ivory's rock though.You've just got to watch out for the premies.

Cheers Aussi Ji

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 22:06:41 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: We call em salties,they
Message:
Amazing what mugs people are sometimes (me included).
Praze de lord I seen de lite!
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 22:55:49 (GMT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I can't believe I actually thought this was real
Message:
I am just going over some of the ridiculous cult crap that I bought into and how it looks so much different now than it did back when I was hooked in.

I am processing through a lot of old premie conceptual baggage as I throw it away and one of the things that came up was how could I have been so stupid as to buy into this bizarre ritual of watching Maharaji prance around in his Krishna costume at the festivals.

What in the hell was this, here is a grown man in front of thousands of fawning fans (sorry devotees), with this ridiculous smile on his face dressed up in a colorful costume that would be fitting to see worn by a circus performer, or better yet one of the clowns (sorry krishna fans). Waving his hands around , and supposedly having the power to annoint us with his blessings. This is what his thrusting upheld hand gestures towards the crowd
were explained to mean to me by a community director anyway.

And what was the not so subtle inference here? And was this a not so thinnly veiled reference to Maharaji dressed up like that as some sort of deity like lord krishna?

Oh yes, Maharaji said he was God, in more ways than one. It is embarrasing to me today seeing how I fell for such Schamltz and glitter and staging such as this. It is even more embarrasing to to reflect on the fact that I did not even question such hocus pocus then.

Whoever designed that costume could probably find their work in demand along the strip in Las Vegas.

I guess thats show Biz folks

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:09:26 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Brian S
Subject: I can't believe I actually thought this was real
Message:
G'day Brian S,
Maharaji was a very good dancer though wasn't he?NOT!I used to look at him dancin' around in his PJ's and think.How the fuck can premies look at that and feel good.I used to cringe and think.Don't give up your day job mate.Maybe He shoulda given that up too,a long time ago.
Aussi Ji
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 04:43:21 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Brian S
Subject: Of course it was real
Message:
You ex-premies are so confused. When Maharaji was dancing around half naked on stage in front of thousands of people, wearing a crown, and carrying a flute, he was trying to remind us TO DO MEDITATION. That's what that was about.

That's all he was doing. As Dr. Kellog said, Maharaji is really good at reminding people to meditate, and to remind them to breathe. If that requires him to shake is mammary glands around in public, well he is willing to do that.

See, for most of us it takes a whole lot to be reminded to do meditation and to be reminded to breathe, and to be reminded that we are alive. Maharaji's dancing, I know for me, always reminded me to breathe, which I might have forgotten otherwise, and seeing Maharaji's body moving in contorting motions really made me want to engage in really deep, meditation.

That's what makes Maharaji such a great master.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 07:59:04 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Of course it was real
Message:
Your response is absurd, since the delivery room doctor slapped me on my tiny ass and I took my first breath nobody has needed to remind me to breath! I did that on my own very naturally thank-you. As far as 'needing' to be reminded to meditate, I ask you where is the evidence that I need to meditate? I certainly never thought that I suffered from a meditation deficiency before I started talking to premies. It is the premies that I first encountered who proceeded to brainwash me into believing that meditation (aka Goo Ma Raj Gi's knowledge) was a panacea for all my difficulties. I stopped meditating because the placebo didn't work and deep down inside of myself I knew that I had been decieved. It took me years to acknowledge this truth (read heresy) I blamed myself for being in my mind and for not trying hard enough, I was in denial. Rawat had sold me sack of shit I blamed myself because the smell wouldn't go away. We don't need Maharaj Ji for anything, we never did. The answers we were seeking are inside ourselves, they always have been and will be. Pauline fire the 'breathing coach' he's to fucking exspensive and you don't need him.

Love, DeProgram Anand Ji

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 07:50:02 (GMT)
From: Rosalia
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: What about his smile
Message:
I mean, when he smiles all shines and during the day and when I meditate and remember his smile I love him more and more. Ís all about him and he hides it a little sometimes to be humble. He makes us believe that Knowledge is about us, that happiness is inside of us but really comes from him. Without his grace I cannot feel anything, I am a vegetable?

As you say Pauline, he dances and moves the blob to makes us meditate, get in a trance, so we can smile. That is happiness. Having found a god to dance for me and show me that harmony. He has so much swing, he moves so well and following the music, almost sexy. One time in Long Beach a woman singer, Kim something, forgot her name, literally screamed in admiration and desire at some point just looking at him. When he got up and began to dance she looked like in ecstacy. That is devotion. That is adoration. I am not there yet but I want to surrender my self to him to be his slave, service, you know. So beautiful to have that understanding, to be simple, like a flower, no brains. No reason top think about anything: THAT IS PERFECTION! As most premies think: Who cares who he is? We don't have to know, no need. Only rejoice. Tomorrow is another day, right? We are like children any way. He doesn't care.
Perhaps is true to begin with I am nothing and the master gives life, sense of porpouse in this life.

I didnt know I came to this world to kiss his feet because I am small and ignorant and he is big, all is big with him; his boobs, his money, pride,

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:24:17 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Rosalia
Subject: His smile is a reflection of THAT love.
Message:
Rosalia,

I am sure I have read some of your entries on enjoyinglife.org, but I am afraid that some of things you said are just Hindu concepts and need to be corrected. Elan Vital has a directive and very important policy on this, as it helps Maharaji with his 'Hurculean' effort to move us all into the 21st Century.

It is true that we must become slaves in devotion to Maharaji, but the correct way to describe that is to feel GRATITUDE to Maharaji. Got it?

It is also true that you are supposed to feel simple with no brains, through THAT experience, the way to describe that is that you have APPRECIATION. Got that?

And although Maharaji is perfect and you see THAT PERFECTION, even as I do, in his large Indian-American breats, it is better to just describe Maharaji as THE MASTER, and yourself as a STUDENT, or PWK, instead of describing Maharaji as the Perfect Master, God, the Incarnation of God, or the Superior Power in Person, even though he is, and instead of describing yourself as a SURRENDERED SLAVE, which you are, or at least might become by his grace, which we also shouldn't mention, and just say Maharaji reminds you to breathe and be alive.

You are small and ignorant, in fact, you are nothing but industrial waste, but please, do not say this to interested people at video events, or at 'people who are interested in learning more' events. Just give them your knowledge packet and tell them you are fulfilled and happy and otherwise keep your big mouth shut, okay? And if the press asks you anything about this, say you don't know and refer them to Booth Dyess. Okay?

Pauline

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 23:43:34 (GMT)
From: ROSALIA
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: I stay corrected: YOU ARE SO CLEAR PAULINE!!
Message:
i ENVY YOU!!

i am so small, you know, like a baby. Knowledge transform people in THAT love. I feel so, so small and insecure, by the grace of the boobs, I mean,the LORD.

i enjoy reading your posts so, so much!! You are an enlighted being, without a doubt. Is the grace of the lard that brings me hear to receive your satsang. Thanks for correcting me, since your appropiate corrections are a reflexion of THAT perfect love, and by LOVE I mean, HIM, no other than than the one who creats love in our hearts, Lord Maharaji, our chubby God. What a grace!

I rather be stupid and know him taht to enjoy mundane things. You know what happens to people who do not practice Knowledge; their life begin to stink. I would never, never live him. I am scared to death to see what would happen. We cannot live without HIM. He is a driunk and more, but hey, he is willing to play the divine role, so what a heck, we ARE full of his grace anyway, right.

Yea, I forgot to mention appreciation. In taht, I always spend money buying holy crap and also send religiously my money to him. He can use it better. I can eat beans anyway... He needs a new yatch, did you hear that? Oh, how divine.

I leave you hear; I don't want to overcook my beans. The left apple is a little rotten, but hey, grace is grace. At least I won't be hungry tonight. At least I am going to heaven, not like Jim, who apparently is going to hell for being so mundane.

I send you a hug and rejoice in THAT love. Thanks for the advice.

Jai sat shit anand!!

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:03:27 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Rosalia
Subject: What about his smile
Message:
Hi there Rosalia,

You say: 'One time in Long Beach a woman singer, Kim something, forgot her name, literally screamed in admiration and desire at some point just looking at him.'

You sure her scream wasn't because a Mahatma just goosed her?

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 05:04:27 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: I've Got Lyrics For Every Occasion
Message:
I met Randy Bachman this week, it was neat.

American Woman.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 04:56:13 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: ROGER - BEST OF FORUM - MMM
Message:
I've got the hots for you, Pauline. I hope you're really a woman.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:13:41 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Funny you should say that, Steve
Message:
I remember the first time I ever got 'satsanged'. It was on a London Underground tube train to Ealing Broadway where I lived at the time. A few stops from home, a stunning blonde creature enters the carriage and sits down next to me.

Suddenly she thrusts (nice word, thrusts) a leaflet into my lap and stars ranting on about meditation and 'going beyond the mind'. I hadn't a clue what she was talking about, and thought she must be on drugs of some sort. But she certainly made an impression.

That night I attended my first ever public meeting of DLM, and guess why? You got it - the blonde beauty.

I wonder how many other premies and ex-premies got hooked because they (subliminally even?) wanted to score with a member of the opposite sex (or of the same sex even?!)
.
.
.
[After M's trip, I got into the Rajneesh one - but that's quite another story - in his ashram getting laid was the norm!]

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 23:03:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Brian S
Subject: peer pressure
Message:
I was always uncomfortable with his Krishna costume and all the swooning but went along as it was the thing to do and I thought to myself that at some point I'd 'get it' and feel as the people around me did. They may have been thinking the same thing who knows?
The 90's were sneakier. The new image made it harder to leave. For me anyway.
We all fell for it. Don't feel alone.
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:28:41 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: peer pressure,
Message:
realizing how ridiculous this ritual actually was is equivalent to good hard slap in the face to keep me awake today.

Thanks Maharaji, the tricks that you used to put me to sleep is now the best ammunition I have to wake myself up!

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:32:41 (GMT)
From: bill the moron, I loved
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: the crown, mala, the whole schtick!-nt
Message:
sdgh
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:47:11 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: bill the moron,
Subject: I loved the crown, mala, the whole schtick!
Message:
It was all the Hindu drag and camp that got me interested in the first place. It became a boring cult after Jonestown when a somber mood took hold and the suits took over.

I'd be back there in a blink with Pauline Premie singing arti if he would just wear that drag again and say honestly that he thinks he's god. Just kidding.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 06:46:34 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: everybody
Subject: the crown, mala, want a background story?
Message:
I remember being told that Maharaji not only was in the spritual lineage of Krishna and Ram, but was as well a blood descendent down thru his family tree. supposedly he was therefore the only one on earth in our time entitled to wear the dual crown of Krishna and Rama in both realms.
The glittery tinsel stuff was a cheap version that the indians use a lot for their festivites, but the jewels in that crown were quite real, and so was the gold. the story goes that maharaji kept receiving all these rings and necklaces and bracelets and countless gifts, in Darshan, of family heirloom jewelry or things premies bought him that they thought he'd like, and most of it was of no use or taste to him. Word was, he finally gave someone the command one day to find a way to take it all apart, have everything appraised, and to melt down the gold and refine it as much as possible, and to have the crown made , using all the jewels and purified gold in the process.
I heard a figure, once, but i have forgotten it, but the crown is painfully heavy to put on the head for any length of time. it weighs too much. one of the reasons he used to sit so carefully and not move his head much was for that reason. i guess he could manage it if he balanced it just right. i suppose the potential damage, to the jewels, or the impact if it tumbled and fell on something, would have been quite painful.
It was reported that the night he got carried away in Kissimmee and let himself really go into it and danced, he later remarked regretfully to someone backstage that he had to watch it, because, as he commented to them, 'I forgot--when i dance, when i raise my left hand, world's are created, and when i raise my right one, world's are destroyed...and I just changed a whole bunch of things in the Universe, out there tonight, without thinking'.
Ya know--I think he must have felt pretty embarassed and silly, himself, when the premies first started bringing him the outfits and begging him to dress up for them. Fat people don't usually like to expose themselves like that in public (or in private, for that matter). I think he was self-conscious and uncomfortable about the whole ridiculous spectacle for a long time. It really is rather like a male striptease show or a gangbang, having 20,000 people out there, thundering in a frenzy, for you to get up and shake your flab for them so they can go into ecstasies and swoon. all that was missing was the plate glass lexan and the automatic curtain and the jizm.
I wonder how much the real crown was appraised at?
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 07:43:09 (GMT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: the crown, mala, very enlightening Janet
Message:
I am still laughing about the striptease analogy, he sure got the the money thrown at him. All that was missing was for some of the highest bidders to walk up and start stuffing his mala strings with cash and copping a sleezy feel.
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:45:29 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Are you from Portland?
Message:
If so, I was one of the peers who pressured you in satsang!
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:20:25 (GMT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: What years are you talking about?
Message:
What was your last name and where are you from? leave me your email if you wish....
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:57:55 (GMT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Are you from Portland?
Message:
Wrong
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:28:25 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Brian S
Subject: Are you from Portland?
Message:
There was/is a Brian Smith from Portland OR
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 21:50:10 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Everyone
Subject: Lurking exes, fence sitters, former PAMS: Post!
Message:
To all those mentioned above: Over the last few months, first hand information about Maharaji's irresponsible and disreputable behavior both inside and outside the cult has been disclosed. If you are not familiar with this information, much of it is ontained in posts made by Michael Dettmers. These posts can be accessed at the website home page and in the Best of Forum section of the site.

Those of us who post here regularly have hashed it over quite a bit. Site statistics suggest that there are a lot of you out there reading the site, but not posting. Please give us the benefit of your insights and reactions to this information. How has it affected your view of your own involvement with the cult? How has this information affected your view of Maharaji and DLM/EV? Have these revelations led directly to you leaving the cult? Are these revelations being discussed among premies you know? What is being said?

Your insights will help the rest of us who are reading and digesting all of this information. Dive in. We want to hear from you.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 12:13:10 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Yeah,Come on lurkin Aussies ,come on.
Message:
Aussi,Aussi,Aussi,oy',oy',oy'Oh sorry I just went into Sydney Olympic mode.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 22:13:48 (GMT)
From: SpacyT
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Mercy me
Message:
You must have been looking the wrong way at the time.

No-one else seems to care or have noticed.

Some might even be glad.

Mercy me...

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:37:55 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Helen Had a GREAT idea!
Message:

I can't keep up either. I don't even try. I really wish someone would post a 'forum highlights' paragraph each week like they do in Soap Opera Digest. Seriously I can't keep up. I rely on the kindness of people I email with to alert me to really great posts/threads.
It's like shoveling snow in a snowstorm which is basically what housework is like especially if you have kids....

Is there anyone willing to volunteer for this service? You have to participate in the forum very synchronously....

ick

But seriously, is there a person who reads most everything who would be willing to post a 'the forum this week' synopsis of the big posts, or don't miss posts? I really like the idea. I have a really hard time keeping everyone straight so I do not think I would be a good person to do it. Someone could try, if they decide they don't want to do it after that try nothing lost. Anybody who wants to do it?

Another idea. What if we had a 'sign up sheet' for the job. Anyone who wanted could 'sign up' for a week. That week, you would read and write a digest. It could be funny...like Danny's post, we all might have our own unique slant on writing our forum digest weekly synopsis.

Anyone ever read Naked came the Manatee?

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 02:06:47 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: The forum Weekly
Message:
Jim did not dissapoint us this week, he managed to flame everybody. Our new arrival, Mr Colon, has been licking everyone's ass. Anth is still a pom. And blubber sucks. Otherwise you have not missed anything.

See you next week,

Editor of EPW

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:48:58 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Susan
Subject: Hi Susan! I nominate...
Message:
Jim! I knew that would cause a ruckus. I can't slog through all the posts either, so I don't want to do it. Any person that volunteers for this assignment is going to end up taking huge rations of caca as posts are misinterpreted, misconstrued, misquoted, etc, etc. Then fights will break out about the summary. Eh god, no way.

How are you? I miss our chats.

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:42:46 (GMT)
From: ELan Vital forum monitor
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Hey, that's my job!
Message:
I write a report every week. And look, I have been doing a very synchronized job of reading all of this very out of touch stuff. I even got to sit at the second row in Oxnard. I know that there is an opening for PR director and I am hoping to be forunate enough to be granted the opportunity to fufill that service. In my heart I know the truth and that fills me with gratitude.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 22:59:46 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: ELan Vital forum monitor
Subject: Weekly Report on 'Ex-Premie Forum'
Message:
To: Maharaji (THE CLIENT)
Elan Vital Board of Directors
North American and European Operations - EV and Visions

Date: January 29, 2001

Subject: Week of January 22, Forum V of the 'Ex-Premie Forum'

This is another of our weekly synchronized reports archiving the vicious, scurrilous, unfounded and mostly anonymous statements on the cesspool known as 'Forum V' of the so-called 'Ex-Premie' website, found at www.ex-premie.org on the Internet.

During the past week, the volume of posters appears to have increased, although we wouldn't put it past those slimeballs if the just made up the statistics, unlike those on THE CLIENT'S website, all of which is true and accurate, or the Elan Vital website, which gives new meaning to the terms truth and accuracy.

In addition, the forum published statistics showing approximately 6,000 messages read per day, and at least several hundred 'hits' on the website every day during the month of January, 2001. THE CLIENT has suggested spreading the 'rumor' that THE CLIENT is displeased if PWKs even look at that website or forum, and that banishment forever to the back rows of events, with that 'flag' forever included in the information on all Smart Cards will befall anyoue found to be participating, or reading there, unless given specific direction by THE CLIENT, such as Turner, Danny and Pauline, and all Elan Vital 'Monitors.'

Details about THE CLIENT'S personal life are still discussed on the forum, mostly by confused individuals, like Michael Dettmers, who have the bizarre idea that Maharaji's lilas can be analyzed, understood, and compared to other, civilized behavior. We at Elan Vital always find this just so amusing, not to mention pathetic.

The following people who are still involved with Elan Vital were mentioned:

David Smith was once again crucified, attacked, and compared to both Hitler and Attilla the Hun. David continues to be the most hated person in the history Elan Vital, with the possible exception of Mahatma Fakiranand and perhaps Mahatma Jagdeo. A nasty post about Sharon Stokke's sexual habits, was also included. Apparently, Marcia Leitner's husband is no longer an active student, which makes us wonder about Marcia, and Randy Prouty, whose two business ventures in the telecommunications and house stoves were reported to be failing was reported to have a great wardrobe (This is NEWS?). [Note to fundraising: Check to see if Randy still has money before assigning seats at the next program.]

A cell within the anti-Maharaji hate organization appears to be developing in the San Francisco Bay Area, with a significant homosexual component, which does not surprise us. Sheldon Jaffee, who works in San Francisco, was outed on the forum, (as a PWK, not as a homosexual) but from what we can tell, he is not posting, unless he is doing so anonymously. [Note to Finance: We suggest interviewing Sheldon Jaffe before allowing him anywhere near THE CLIENT.]

Michael Dettmers continues his confused, Monmot ways, and we recommend damage control stratedgy number 4 (discredit and ignore him), but we are afraid our plant, Danny, is becomming sympathetic to the anti-Maharaji point of view, or else he is just really, really unsynchronized. Turner is doing a good job, however. Elan Vital believes his treatis on 'Maharaji as a Role Model' went over particularly well, and we note that THE CLIENT was very happy with what he had to say, especially Turner's contention that THE CLIENT is a better role model than Jesus Christ.

THE CLIENT would also like to know who 'Pauline Premie' is and to get her a front row seat at the next program. Her clarity of understanding, and her unflinching devotion to THE CLIENT are beginning to rival those of Turner, and we believe they are destroying the momentum of the ex-premie website. Good work Pauline!!

In order to facilitate synchronization of these endeavors, we have hired the Public Relations Firm of Hill and Knowlton at a cost of $500 per hour to advise us on how to cope with the 'internet problem.' Finance should direct Yoram Weiss to at once get off his ass an raise some money to pay the outstanding bills to Knowlton, not totalling $468,592. We suggest he call his list of rich suckers, we mean PWKs, to get this cash in right away, or risk being considered unsynchronized.

Our next Board Meeting is in April at Amaroo. Be sure to bring water and bug repellant.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:48:15 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: A sunday summary thread? All could chime in.nt
Message:
sgbhbdfx
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 09:58:18 (GMT)
From: A Question for
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Turner
Message:
Turner,
I read your posts with interest. The reason is that when I go around to see my premie friends for a chat and a cuppa tea guess what comes out of their mouth? Turner speak! The very same words and phrases. It is amazing almost as if all premies all over the world were having the same realisations at the same time.
Mind you, my friends usually keel over after one round of questioning and are not really able to respond to my humble enquiries.

Where as you my friend have 'clarity of rhetoric' and you can stand you ground with the best of them, so much so that I can almost imagine that you might be part of the 'international sink team'. Are you the dreaded David Smith? or perhaps Loring Baker? I wonder. Perhaps you are an instructor with toooooooo much time on your hands. One thing I do know is that you are in with the in crowd.
Watch out, that little self righteous streak will trip you up.

Insideout

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 16:23:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: A Question for
Subject: Oh great, Hi 'A Question for' How are you?
Message:
Your post is great. Now who the hell are you? Don't you think it's rude to not even have a stupid cartoon name or something? Yes, that's right, rude. Don't you think so?
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:39:59 (GMT)
From: A Question for you
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh great, Hi 'A Question for' How are you?
Message:
Jim wrote:

Don't you think it's rude to not even have a stupid cartoon name or something? Yes, that's right, rude. Don't you think so?

Reply:

I signed off 'Insideout'

Insideout

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 07:57:35 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: A Question for you
Subject: thenINSIDEOUT is your name in the 'from' field.
Message:
get the rules down straight before you break them.
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:45:08 (GMT)
From: Insideout
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: thenINSIDEOUT is your name in the 'from' field.
Message:
Sorry,
From my outside in

Insideout

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:45:04 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: A Question for you
Subject: Jim, go for the jugular
Message:
It's one thing when the old time anonymice post because we do know them (in a way) but all these new stalking anonymice give me the creeps.
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:43:32 (GMT)
From: Insideout
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Jim, go for the jugular
Message:
Patrick Conlon wrote:
It's one thing when the old time anonymice post because we do know them (in a way) but all these new stalking anonymice give me the creeps.

My reply:
Patrick,
Get used to it, the tide is turning and you will see many more
anonymous postings in the future. Perhaps in the fullness of time these
people may show their true colours, they may not.
As I understand it this site was set up to help people move from being under
the influence of a cult to regaining their sense of self esteem and self
worth and that anonymous posting was acceptable. Based on this understanding
I fail to see how my posting made you feel 'creepy'.
If this site were set up to encourage a small group of incestuous thinking
then I would understand.
If I was committed to helping more people move out of the cult mentality
then I would be more concerned with how I could make this site more widely
know, encourage many and any one to post no matter what their persuasion and
be focused on how the site could be redesigned to handle 400 or 600 postings
a day(I have no doubt this will happen soon)
I have no intention of posting under my real name. I am more than happy to
have my identity 'confirmed' by some one who posts under their real name if
that is nessessary.

Insideout

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:06:34 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Insideout
Subject: Thanks for your courteous response
Message:
You happened to post your first message on the same night that we were being spammed by an anonymous troll. I was feeling overly defensive. I apologize and welcome you.
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:56:49 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Insideout
Subject: Hello Insideout
Message:
I really don't care if you are anonymous. Welcome here. Could you tell us about yourself? When and where did you get k? Did you live in the ashram? Why do you say that many others will be posting soon? What effect have the revelations by Michael Dettmers had upon you?

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:42:12 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Jeez Marianne, you make it sound like a disease...
Message:
When and where did you get k?

'Well, back in the early eighties before much was known about it, I used to frequent the public baths on St Mark's Place...'

Come to think of it, IT IS A DISEASE !!!

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:02:54 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Jeez Marianne, you make it sound like a disease.OT
Message:
Forum tapeworm. where did you get that? I'm still chortling.

Your pal, Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:14:32 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Question From Steve Quint To Michael Dettmers
Message:
Did you know that people like myself, and I'm talking about the period roughly from 1979 to 1984 mainly, wrote letters to maharaji in dire straits due to emotional illness caused by him and knowledge? If so, do you know how they were disposed with because I pretty much never got a response to any of them?

Thanks,

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:15:07 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: My response
Message:
Steve,

I have just now checked in on the Forum and see that your question to me has already generated many responses. I do not have time at the moment to read all of the responses, so I will answer your question as best I can without the benefit of what others have said.

First let me say that I did not directly or indirectly have anything to do with the way letters sent to Maharaji were handled. However, being around Maharaji and DLM/EV as I was, different people at different times were charged with the responsibility of reading and responding to it. On a couple of occasions I heard Maharaji express his concern that his mail be handled with care and respect. I do not recall, however, Maharaji ever spending much of his personal time addressing specific questions and concerns raised in letters that were sent to him. In fact, some of the people who handled his mail expressed frustration that they did not have regular or easy access to Maharaji so that they could discuss with him how to answer some of the letters.

As I have said before, Maharaji was quite lazy about fulfilling many of the responsibilities he unleashed when he set himself up as Perfect Master for the world. He would much rather be flying kites or tinkering with cars for example, than responding to his mail. I say this even though he was very good and consistent at granting me whatever time I needed to fulfill my responsibilities. But others were not granted the same access, and it often created frustration and anger. In these situations, most people just swallowed their anger and accepted their situation as another lesson in surrender. In the meantime, many people like yourself who did not receive a response were left waiting and wondering.

Michael

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:40:51 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: My response
Message:
In the meantime, many people like yourself who did not receive a response were left waiting and wondering.

And possibly dead from suicide in some cases. Or left thinking that their severe problems were caused by their lack of devotion or understanding. I'm still waiting for an objective or well-explained essay from somebody on how come we smart people all got taken in for some period or another. What are or were m's powers. What is or was knowledge's power. Care to try?

Thanks,

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:50:06 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: My response
Message:
Steve,

During the time I was at IHQ in Miami, 1979-1980, Sally Reeder, who later became an initiator, had the 'service' of answering Maharaji's mail. I don't think Sally had any more access to Maharaji than the rest of us did, and I think she just 'gave satsang' in responding to the letters. I believe she did try to answer the letters, and I think she sent letters she felt she couldn't answer up the line, to Maharaji.

I remember it was cult-dogma at the time, that just like Christian mythology that the authors of the Bible were supposedly divinely inspired, Sally and others who answered Maharaji's correspondence were given the 'grace' to do that service and hence the response was really coming from Maharaji. Maharaji never even saw the vast majority of those letters. However, if you enclosed a $10,000 check, he just might see it. In fact, if you did that you would probably get invited to a party at 'the residence, as I know some people did.

Like Disculta, around the time I left the cult, in late 1982 or early 1983, I wrote a couple of letters to Maharaji, sending them registered mail, asking answers to a number of questions. I also never got a response, from anyone. By that time, I'm pretty sure Sally wasn't doing the 'letter answering' service because she was touring as an initiator, and I'm sure Maharaji was busy with his pilot training and writing poetry.

Regarding those who gave donations got access, when I lived in the Boston ashram, a premie who lived in the ashram, a nice guy named Steve Gross, had been in a car accident and got a settlement of several thousand dollars from the other driver's insurance company for his injuries. Steve was able to convince the community coordinator, and the ashram housefather, to allow him to send the money in a card to Maharaji. Anyhow, Steve got an invitation to Maharaji's birthday party (or maybe it was his anniversary party I'm not sure) at the residence. Those of us who just turned over our lives and every cent we earned to Maharaji, and just sent him letters with no donations, did not even get an answer, let alone an invitiation to 'the residence.'

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:46:36 (GMT)
From: Jeff
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Donations
Message:
Fine.
I sent m $9,000 (cash) in 1979 from LA prior to moving into the ashram... I never even got a thank you. Was I $1000 short?
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:56:40 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jeff
Subject: Donations
Message:
Wow, don't know, maybe there was a $10,000 cut-off. Probably, Maharaji figured if you were moving into the ashram you wouldn't have any more donations to contribute and he would get everything anyway. So, why invite you? I think most of the people who were invited to the residence, and/or sat in the front rows, were considered deep pockets and that there were more donations where those came from. Cultivating donations. Just good fundraising.

Come to think of it, it may have been Durga Ji who actually invited Steve Gross. I think he gave the money for that Austin Martin that Durga Ji was buying for Maharaji for his birthday.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:23:07 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: My response
Message:
I was a letter-answerer - or at least a translator of responses - several times in my premie career. They never let me actually answer the letters, which pissed me off, since I felt I was more articulate and creative than them. But maybe that was the point?

When I left MJ in about 1984, I wrote a very serious, well-thought out and respectful letter with some complaints and requests that involved asking him to help in suicide prevention for premies and exiting premies (not me). I never got a response, even though I knew where to send my letter and sent it by registered mail.

Ignore it and it will go away. Well, I did.

Love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:01:27 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: freitano@hotmail.com
To: Disculta
Subject: Thanks Mike, Disculta and Joe
Message:
I had forgotten about Sally Reeder. Joe described the grac-ey train quite well. It's those little details that keep me slopping at this trough.

I went into a severe mental depression during the period leading up to my leaving the ashram. I honestly didn't care if I lived or died, but I kept it mostly to myself. I believe the internal conflict (not to mention burning the candle at both ends with the ashram schedule) caused a physical illness that felled me like a tree right about the time David Smith made me San Francisco Community Coordinator. Being CC probably lasted only a couple of weeks as a result. I don't remember assuming any of the duties. After I got well, I left the 'shram.

I remember, over the years and at that time, writing to MJ. It was the response from a caring premie, with a nice picture of MJ lovingly holding one of his babies, that added fuel to my resolve to get out of ther ashram. Either MJ didn't give a damn or the premies around him didn't want to let him know there was trouble in paradise, I couldn't figure out which. Now I know, thanks to your responses, that it was the former, rather than the latter.

I also wrote several letters before I left, several years after I was out of the 'shram, and those went totally unanswered. I had grown increasingly concerned with the cult like activities, even concerning access to to programs themselves. It seemed as if most of them were announced a week or two before the program, and unless you had friends with the 'inside scoop,' neither the time off from work or the resources were available. I really believed at that point, and still do, that MJ mainly cultivates yuppies with money. Who else can just take time off from a job at almost a moment's notice, and have spare change for hotels and airplane flights? MJ will, of course, also string along anyone who'll send a check every month.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:18:34 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Hi Francesca
Message:
Yes, I remember sending a letter to Maharaji, and getting a letter back from Sally that was just a bunch of simplistic platitudes, not even addressing my specific question. It was just basically, 'trust Maharaji, and do satsang, service and meditation and don't think.' SS&M was the answer to everything. Amazing.

Later, Sally came to San Francisco in about 1982 and she was trying to set up an 'elite' ashram in San Francisco, out of which propogation would occur, and she didn't want me to live there, because by that point I wasn't very energetic about it all anymore. She had no trouble convincing me. The house was off Laguna Honda, and was going to include that guy Stewey from Philadelphia, Sharon Stokke, Marcia Leitner, probably Barbara, and god knows who else. The most self-righteous, difficult people. Actually, after that ashram got set up, the people who lived there fought so much it closed very soon after that. Funny.

I recall in about March or April of 1981, I was replaced as CC in San Francisco by Barbara Mahler. She was the one who complained to David Smith in front of everyone that, basically, she was the only truly devoted premie in the entire Bay Area and that it was a real burden for her that I (and Carl before me) had gotten into 'relationship' and hence lowered the vibe of both San Francisco and the East Bay. She also ratted on everyone and Smith took notes on all our worldly behaviors in his black book.

So, Barbara was made coordinator due to her superior level of devotion and understanding. At what point did you become coordinator? Maybe I had left by that point, but from your chronology, it appears you left the ashram before I did. I also don't remember you being ill. Who did he put in place after you?

I was really on the way out by the Fall of 1982, and I officially moved out of the ashram in March, 1983.

Even after I left, I wasn't completely severed from the cult. I remember I went to a meeting in a premie house off Clipper Street (on a REALLY steep hill, steep even for San Francisco), and Jim Emerson came and gave the most insulting 'satsang' about the need to give money. I remember Joy and I were so disgusted we decided it really was the final straw.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 21:00:04 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: CC, scammin and 'shrammin
Message:
Joe:

Joy and Joanne moved out a month or two before I did, which I believe I did in the spring of 1982. (Spring, la la!)

I can no longer remember the musical community coordinator chairs. Barbara M. was the CC, then Herr Schmitz kicked it up into high gear and had Barbara and Josie as his main protegees (at least for a few weeks).

My dim memory is that he made me coordinator so that Barbara could pursue some higher calling, and he sent poor Josie off to be the community coordinator of Seattle. I think Josie felt as if she'd been banished, but I don't profess to know what was in everyone's heads at the time. I think Herr Schmitz felt as if he was sending out his chief lieutenants in his war against the world.

Then they put me in the Oakland house to recuperate, but they were getting ready for Grace Wallis to arrive in Oakland, and I had started getting rebellious by that time. Everyone was running around getting ready for Queen Grace, I was sick as a dog, there were no drawers or closets to put my stuff in (too many people, the ashram ghetto, you know). Being ill, no very little consideration was given for me, but everyone was running around for the Queen. But they had a great room with an elevated space for M's chair. So I picked the best (and quietest) spot in the house and camped out in a corner behind the chair until they decided that I might infect Grace and (MERCY) sent me back to SF, that great fun city of sin. Now mind you, Grace was always nice to me, but I never had to kowtow to her whims, because by that time I wouldn't have.

But who was coordinator after my brief stint? I believe he may have put Barbara back in there. At some point David made Marsha Leitner the CC. Marsha and I always got along, except the time I suggested that they just tell Grace 'no!' By that time, I was willing to tell them all to stuff it, although I would have done it nicely. After all, no one had told any of the kingies and queenies to stuff it in so long, I'm sure I could have knocked over most of them with a feather.

We are sure going to have fun in Latvia, I can tell ...

Cheers,

--f

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 23:16:15 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: The names and the events.
Message:
Who was Josie? That name sounds familiar, but I can't place it on a face. What was Josie's last name?

I think there was also somebody named 'Wendy' who was also a real hard-line premie. She told me she had 'spaced-out' knowledge, and like a reformed smoker or alcoholic, because 'super premie' after that. I assume she burned out on it at some point.

I think Marcia was flown in from some other community to be CC. I always got along pretty well with Marcia as well, as I recall. I understand she is currently on the Elan Vital Board of Directors and wrote this nothing letter to Susan (through Michael Dettmers) about the Jagdeo situation, and the little, if anything Elan Vital had done about it.

Yes, Grace Wallace. Didn't she have some kind of disease, real or imagined? I do recall that she was waited on hand and foot by the sisters in the East Bay asharm. I wonder whatever happened to her. Hopefully, she came into a lot of money and can afford servants, seeing as there aren't slave premies around anymore.

Do you remember that meeting at the house on Miraloma Drive, in which Smith 'sort of' apologized for the terror and torture he caused among the ashram premies? I remember at the meeting I spoke up and suggested to David that he was sadistic and it was dangerous to give someone like him power over people. At that point, David resorted to the Maharaji-crap that is was all 'perfect.' You know, the radically conservative idea in the Maharaji cult that everything that happens is perfect and is supposed to happen. It gives a sadist like Her Schmitz the ability to do what he did and then call it perfect.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 23:51:31 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The names and the events.
Message:
Josie Tamarin. I also lived with her in the LA ashram. A real good person, as I recall.

Don't remember Wendy's last name, but she was my roommate at one point, at Galewood. She had come to the SF ashram from Colorado, and rode her bicycle everywhere, up and down the SF hills. Many years ago (like about 1985?) Mark was selling crystals at a New Age Expo in San Francisco for a friend of ours. (Because they made no magical claims about the crystals, theirs were much cheaper than everyone else's, but folks were flocking around the tables that sold them for more money and sort of 'diagnosed' what crystals would be good for people -- but I digress.)
Anyway, Wendy was there, almost embarassed to bump into Mark, had not been practicing, and had moved to Hawaii. When I heard the story, I felt bad that she had been a bit shy about being seen by someone from her past, and hope that leaving the spurious lotus tooties has been long left in a cloud of dust in her life ... she's a great lady.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:17:39 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Illness and the Herbal Company
Message:
I remember going to pick up Wendy at the airport when she arrived. That seemed to be my major job -- picking people up from and dropping them off at, the airport.

For some reason I have drawn a blank on Josie.

Also, I didn't remember that you had been ill. Illness seemed to be something you were supposed to be ashamed of. We were all supposed to do service and leave it up to Maharaji to take care of us. Personal and physical weaknesses were often considered 'of the mind'. People were encouraged to overlook their own, personal limitations, and we certainly didn't get good medical care either. At least we were pretty young, for the most part.

Now, there was a guy in Berkeley who has this 'internal cleansing' book and he hired premies to fill capsules with some kind of herbal thing he developed, all for cleaning our your intestines, if I remember correctly.

That business grew and became a cult business. I recommended Richard Eatherly to come manage the business, and I guess lots of premies went to work there. It was in Oakland, and changed its name to Yerba Buena Botanicals. Barbara Casey worked for the company.

Then, I heard it moved to Oregon, but I haven't heard if it remained a cult business, although I still see the products on Health Food Store shelves. Do you know anything about this?

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:23:21 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: here's the link to herb co
Message:
Joe -- Here's the link.
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:20:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Illness and the Herbal Company
Message:
Joe:

Not really. As I understood it, Bob Gray essentially gave the company to the ashram because he had written the colon cleansing books, and was not allowed by law to sell the products as well.

Karen Kirschbaum and I were asked to be Robert's first employees, but I declined, and stayed at my job downtown. Bob Dewing, my former brother-in-law, was called in from SHIP to run the business as well. When the ashrams closed, I don't know what the legal and financial arrangement for the business was. Actually, I don't know what the legal and financial arrangements were before the ashram closed, either.

Yes, the products are still on the health food store shelves!

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 17:16:49 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Illness and the Herbal Company
Message:
Francesca,

That's right. Bob Gray. Right, the reason someone else had to run the herbal business was because it was illegal to both recommend treatments, as Bob did through his books, and also produce the treatments. So, I worked with Bob and we got Richard, who I had known in Miami, to come and manage the business. Thanks for the link. I had heard it moved to Oregon.

I just wonder if the business it still connected to the cult and providing money to Maharaji. Before Bob let go of the business (and I think he may have ended up suing the company later on, but I don't know for sure, I just know there were lots of disputes, and one of the reasons for moving to Oregon), anyhow, before he let go of the business, it was his business and he just hired premies to work for him. When Richard took over the business, it was around the time I left, so I'm not sure what happened after that.


I remember Bob Dewing. He married your sister? I thought he married Sharon Stokke, but maybe I'm mixed up about that.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:10:02 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Illness and the Herbal Company
Message:
Joe:

Bob got together with Sharon long AFTER he and my sister split up, moved in the ashram, and then moved out of the ashram (she in Miami, he in SF). Many marriages broke up in order to move into the 'shram during the devotion crank-up of the late 70s. My sister and Bob were no different than many in LA at the time.

Yerba Prima did indeed have to separate the business from Bob Gray once it became more than a cottage industry. I remember how excited Bob was about it. It's kind of sad to think about now, because he had put so many years of his life into the project. He felt he was giving the business to the ashram, but after a while, the ashrams closed. I always wondered what exactly evolved there.

Also saw an article by Peter Finkle on the Yerba Prima website. Peter used to be an ashram premie, but I haven't seen him in many, many years.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 14:56:06 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Illness and the Herbal Company
Message:
Hi Francesca, Bob Gray!, yes I know exactly whom you are talking about.

I was in the Berkeley community '76-'81. Your name sounds very familiar, but I don't think I ever met you. I think I heard your name in an announcement at a community meeting. Something like 'If you are interested in doing such-and-such service, talk to Francesca.' And I thought to myself, even if I did want to do that service, I have no way of knowing who Francesca is. So I just left it at that. But it was an interesting name, the way the first 'c' is pronounced 'ch' like in Italy, so it stuck with me.

I did know Mark, not that we were close friends, but I knew him.

David

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:36:20 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Hi DT
Message:
We seem like the fruitcakes, but really we're not.

Welcome aboard!

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 21:58:17 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Hi DT
Message:
Francesca, Thanks, but I am trying not to join any groups if in so doing, I have to subscribe to certain truths.

Mostly, I lurk, but the urge to remenesce is too strong, especially since I don't see anyone from the old community at events.

Was Bob Gray a small black man with glasses and short fuzzy hair?

David

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 23:06:24 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: This group does not require subscription to ...
Message:
anything, as far as I can see, tho the purpose is 'ex-premie forum.' That's it. Someone people love to meditate, some hate it, some don't care.

Bob was as you described. He was a really nice guy. The East Bay community was full of nice, regular people. It was so un-honcho.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 16:30:41 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Hi DT!
Message:
How are you? Where did you live in Berkeley in '76? With whom did you live? We must have friends in common, or must have back then. Was Tom the CC at the time? Did our paths cross? I pretty much quit going to satsang around September. Did you ever come into the city to the house at 38th Avenue in the Richmond District for satsang? I lived there.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:24:26 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hi DT!
Message:
Hi Marianne,
We must have just missed each other, I arrived in Bekeley early Sept '76 a few weeks before classes began. Finding a place to live was a real problem. Finally I got a room at the 'Y'. I didn't establish contact with the local premies until a few weeks after that. There were about 4 brothers who were looking to rent a premie house and I went in with them. There was a fellow called 'George, Inc.'. I think he was from Venezuela. He never told us his last name. Was probably illegal. But they passed up apartments I would have jumped at. Finally, I got tired of the 'Y' and tired of these guys looking for the perfect house so I got a room at the International House beginning January.

You did mention the Messers once. I always liked John and Jeannie Messer. John always made you feel at home. Jeannie might have been too brainy for her own good but I could relate to her on that level. I don't remember the CC's name. I remember there was a guy who suddenly quit and denounced Maharaji.

David

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:57:33 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Hi DT!
Message:
I never met Jeannie Messer as she had moved up in the cult and left John with their son. John and I hit it off because we were both gay single fathers.

I worked in Bob Gray's herb business in the flats of Rockridge for a while.

The ashram in SF was on Masonic in 78. Satsang was in the huge attic. After Jonestown happened the suits took over and moved the ashram to Russian Hill. That was the end of the exuberant hippie era of the SF community and it was downhill from then on.

Except for the fags in the Haight. And that was frowned upon enough by Ratwat that he sent John Horton up to interview (intimidate) me as the identified ''leader'' of a group of renegade fags. He conducted his interrogation in the Miraloma ashram.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:30:23 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: No Way!
Message:
Patrick, If John is gay how do you explain his wife and kid? Gay guys have this tendency to think that all other people are gay too, even if they're not. Are you sure?

David

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:50:00 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: You mean he has a new wife and kid? NT
Message:
s
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:08:28 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: Really?
Message:
What did Horton ask you in the interrogation that he conducted in the Miraloma ashram? How did he try to intimidate you?

I knew Jeannie Messer in Miami. She had been Michael Donner's assistant, and always spoke glowingly of Donner. When I knew her she was kind of the office manager for IHQ, when it moved from Denver to Miami Beach, and was in the Broadripple Hotel. Jeannie was a die-hard premie, very ambitious, hard-working, and I think really wanting to do service in the glow of darshan.

When I got to San Francisco, I met her husband and son. I think Jeannie felt quite guilty on one level, just like Anne Johnston, that she had essentially abandoned her kid to go serve the Lord.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 21:09:11 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: John Horton
Message:
Just as I was about to submit my answer to you my computer crashed and I lost it. I will re-write it and post it later.
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:29:24 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe and DT
Subject: George and the Messers
Message:
Oh, I remember George! I think he was Chilean. There was a small community of Chilean premies in the Bay Area -- -most of whom had fled the on-going strife created by fecking Pinochet (who is about to be prosecuted for the Caravan of Death -- yay!). He lived at the big premie house on Waring Street in Berkeley for a long time. He used to hang out with John Simonello, the only WPC ashram member who existed in SF for a long time.

I always liked John and Jeanne. They owned a house on Carleton Street in Berkeley, which soon filled with premies. Pat McCracken used to live there. Little 19 year old Marianne was a heavy in the community (such as it was in SF -- it was never very heavy there during my time) compared to these folks. I find it so amazing that they went on to careers in premie land. Jeanne was about as anti autoritarian as you could get. Pat was just a sweet, gay premie, who did not seem to be ambitious at all.

What a trip down memory lane.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 21:34:50 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: George and the Messers
Message:
Marianne, well it was sort of light in '76. There weren't many distinctions between premies. John had a policy of making everyone feel like they were part of the community.

Round about '77 and '78 things were getting more 'focused' again. The Messers moved out. The little apartment where they had been living became a place for visiting instructors to stay. The house became a brothers' ashram with Pat McCracken as the house father.

David

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 21:11:54 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: George and Patrick
Message:
Was it George the goodlooking Chilean who was Patrick McCracken's lover whom he jilted in Miami for the Turd?
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 21:17:18 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: George was gay?
Message:
Oh boy, I think we have to discuss this offline. Top security you know. Calling you now!
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:45:42 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: George Inc. and John Simonello
Message:
I knew George and John in LA in the late 70s. Simonello was in the ashram for a while, but didn't last as long as I did, and got together with Judy Brewer (who had been the housemother of my premie house in 1973 -- whew, folks just recycled everywhere).

George was a great artist, and when I worked at the Peace Press in Culver City, Gunther Scholls, a German premie, was a pressman, and he made stationery for a premie business, Rainbow Stationery. George and Rachel Light were two of the artists. At some point Russell Tate (who was living in the ashram in LA at the time) and David Wieder took over the business (I think after DLM sent all the European ashram premies back home due to Visa problems -- they didn't want to attract the attention of the INS [hindsight is that if they'd talked to any of the ashram premies, they probably would have thought the European nationals were captives of a wierd cult, or something--but I digress]).

I wish them all well, if ever they are lurking here or posting under pseudos.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 20:56:06 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Judy Brewer from Detroit????
Message:
Are we talking about Big Judy, tall, blond, very pretty, who used to be a housemother in one of the Detroit ashrams??????

Where were you in'73 again -- Mass?

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 23:14:05 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Judy Brewer from Detroit????
Message:
No, Judy Brewer from Castro Astro house in '73. Then I went to the Soul Rush theater group after festival in England in summer '73, back to Boston after Millenium, and was sent to be in the Apostles in Atlanta in early '74. Then Bhole Ji's band in '74. Within a month or so, family feud. Yikes. Lived in Malibu, Thousand Oaks, Venice, Culver City. Came back to cult in about '76, in Santa Monica. Then Ashram in about '77-78. Then transferred to SF in '80. Moved out of 'shram spring '82. Left SF summer 1984. Started to leave cult around time of Palm Springs K review, which we decided not to bother attending.

That be my itinerary.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 17:10:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Marianne and Francesca
Subject: Houses in the Haight
Message:
Wasn't there an ashram in the Haight, a big house with turrets at about Asbury and Frederick?

Also, wasn't there a premie house on Frederick and another one on Page Street, also in the Haight?

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:15:16 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Houses in the Haight
Message:
During my days in SF, there was a premie house on Frederick Street. It is where I lived before I moved from SF. Ted Wright had lived there. Before I moved, Jerry Mok, Rick Lyons and I all lived there.

Doris Ellen (Jasa) and Billy McCarthy had an apartment on Page Street. I lived there when I first moved out of the ashram, with Jasa and Deborah.

But during Marianne's day, there was an ashram in the Haight, but I wasn't around.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:24:31 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Francesca and Joe
Subject: Page Street and 10th Avenue
Message:
Yes, Billy lived at the Page Street address for years. I remember going to Unity Fair meetings there in '75 and '76. There was a premie who stayed there named Bobby Baer - a vet, and someone I was close to. I often wondered what happened to him.

The ashram was at 1627 -10th Ave. Funny that I can still remember the address to this day. It's heyday was 29 fecking years ago! Drive by when you're in the neighborhood, Joe. It's a gorgeous place.

In the fall of '74, the ashram moved to Clay Street, half a block down from the hospital.

Joe, did you ever know Tom whose last name escapes me, who was the CC in SF for a while?

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:12:08 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Houses in the Haight --yes
Message:
There was an ashram around Ashbury. I think I went there once in the late 70's, for a very quick minute. I was long out of the cult but wanted to see if John Robinson and others were still there, cuz I still loved them anyway.

There was a premie house on Page Street when I was around, but I thought that the premies moved out. There was a gay European premie named Sasha who lived there, and Nancy also known as Joya.

The big, beautiful ashram in SF was on 10th Avenue, just up from Kirkham. That place must be worth 2 million bucks in today's market. It was an incredible place.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:08:49 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: ignore them,wait for mike. its a good Q.
Message:
someone had to have been reading m's mail, and michael might well know who or how it was handled then.
ignore these rude shitheads below. they reveal their crudity by their own behavior.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:07:13 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji/Elvis
Message:
A comment in the road-crossing chicken thread below, made by M. Dettmers, struck me kinda funny: when he alluded to GMJ accepting awards from mayors and cops and then going home to his pad and lighting up joints...it reminded me of Elvis Presley.

Elvis was here in Denver a while back accepting an award from (and giving a Cadillac to) a police chief, an award for fighting drugs. While accepting the plaque, he apparently had cotton balls soaked with cocaine water in his cheeks. And then, of course, he went back to his pad and etc. etc.

This isn't the only parallel between the guru and the singer, either. Both of them, in their later years, coasted along on their earlier fame, churning out tired, pale watered-down versions of their earlier hits.

Both of them were surrounded by fawning sycophants who did their best to keep the truth about the Big Guy's tawdry life out of the limelight.

Both of them bloated up quite a bit in their later years (OK, Rawat was never as lithe as the early Elvis, but still...)

And don't you remember at indoor festivals, after Arti and the Guru's hurried hand-blessings (he was desparate for a smoke), someone on the microphone saying, 'Guru Maharaj Ji has left the building.?'

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 23:02:55 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Maharaji/Elvis
Message:
A refreshing post here - 2 turkeys.
Unfortunately (for him) margarineji can't even sing or speak charismatically.
Still, to his credit, it seems he likes (liked) good drugs.
Steve.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 12:58:53 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Unfair to Elvis!
Message:
Elvis was a kid from a real poor family (not a family business) who was considered to be a weirdo in high school, was devoted to his mother and was devastated (and never really recovered) when she died, and whose biggest ambition was to be a movie star. He made all his own money singing and dancing and acting in movies. He bought his own cars and other toys, and was 'managed' by someone else (not very well, either). He was a great singer and a good dancer, too (unlike M).

Elvis never claimed to be spiritually superior to his fans, never kept his concerts or music secret, never claimed or hinted around that he was God, and never asked for donations of money because people should be 'grateful' to him. He died over 30 years ago, and people are still listening to his music, and will probably keep listening to it (can you imagine the corollary to this one - people watching Rawat videos 30 years after he dies?)

Superficially, there are resemblances, but not actually. IMHO, anyway.

(I'm a big Elvis fan, can you tell? Snicker!)

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:39:55 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Gregg, Maharaji/Elvis analogy excellent
Message:
Like many here I was charmed by him when he was a kid and revolted by him as he grew coarser. Unlike the young Elvis though I never found Prempal sexy. I bet he had to give the blondes XTC before fucking them.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:12:13 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon, gregg
Subject: maybe he will die on his gold toilet by OD, 2
Message:
gee--we cant call malibu Graceland--that's already been taken. I know--Greaseland?
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 11:20:16 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Brilliant, janet! Malibu palace = Greaseland!
Message:
Great turn of phrase. I'm using it from now on.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 16:23:11 (GMT)
From: Channeling Elive
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Viva Lost Wages, Viva Lost Wages.......nt/ot
Message:
mm
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:19:28 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Greaseland, Janet you are the e.e.cummings
Message:
of EPO.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:32:44 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Janet
Subject: PS and I mean that nicely, Janet
Message:
I know you and I will never see eye to eye on cosmologies but I admire your passion and determination to march to the beat of your own drummer. You will see that in my correspondence with Francesca, whom I have known and loved for 20 years. She sees the world in a very different way from me but I admire her strength.
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 08:48:08 (GMT)
From: janet the fag hag
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: thanks. so i can exhale now?.
Message:
actually, i admire your sanity. you took a lifetime to distill your various experiences down to what works the clearest. i salute you. whatever you hear me promulgating here is my lifelong effort to distill all of what I have seen and experienced into something that can hold it all. and i know neither of us came up the 'ordinary' way.

janet the 4x Leo and fag hag since age 13

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 09:35:40 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: janet the fag hag
Subject: thanks. so i can inhale now?.
Message:
Your description of the mala dance as a striptease was better than anything Cintra Wilson has written. She's doing it for money. Your words come from passion, strength and will-power.

You know I admire you. You have bared yourself here. I really don't care about agreeing with people getting them to agree with me. I guess that comes from getting where I got on my own through as many adversities as you have.

I just like tough people a lot. But the toughness is more convincing if they once were weak and overcame that. You did. I did. I am also very partial to people who are in your face eccentric. I tried to say this to Runamok and Sandy but they misunderstood me. But I think you know what I'm saying.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:30:41 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: and to stirr the pot a little
Message:
What is a Master?

A long time ago - this is one example I used to give back in the '70's - people would start comparing me to God. 'Are you God?' - that's what they would ask. 'No, I'm not God.' 'So, what are you?' And this is the analogy I used to give. Imagine a big power station. There are big turbines running in there, generating power, and then there are the cables going out from the power station, going to the different transformers, and from those transformers, distributed further. They go into distribution centers and they're distributed even more. Then they go into your city, into your little area and then into your community, and finally that power comes to your house, and, through the wiring in your house, reaches your little outlet.

And from that little outlet it goes through the wires and into the bulb. In the bulb, there is a filament, and when the power goes into that, it lights up. And I would say that's me - the filament. I'm not the power station. The filament is the thinnest part of the whole equation. It is so thin that when the electricity goes through that filament, it lights it up. Whatever it may be, without that filament, there is no light. And if light is what you want, then that's how that is made possible.

Filament my ass

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 06:28:07 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: What a bunch of crap
Message:
How friquing boring!!!! Aughhh...

What a relief to don't have to hear the crap anymore. Well, I would hear it if it brings some benefit to our cause, we, ex-premies.

hey Salam, I like your late activitities. I think I have some good excerpts with which we can attack his crap. I have tons of videos and cassettes with the crap for your site. We can have a ball!!

Remind me if interested.

Luv,

s

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 09:48:50 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: What a bunch of crap
Message:
slowley slowley catch monkey. Am still experementing with thing, and I don't want to do anything really serious at present. I will e-mail you when ready.

I never heared him talking about light bulbs before, have you? What a bullshit merchant he is. So now, instead of him being the power generator, he is the stupid filament, I think you are right, it's a load of crap.

Did you find his eggs yet? :)

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 13:28:15 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: He is so pure he doesn't have any
Message:
eggs? Figure of speech or the physical ones?

My guess, he doesn't have either one. He is from another planet the greedy bastard. He can't be human. People are getting sick and dying and he still talks irresponsibly, always willing to put the money first.

His filament is too thin; doesn't make contact well. The master is insane. Wouldn't you say? How much I detest him? Take a guess. I am glad I don't live in CA.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 14:33:18 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: aren't we all
Message:
happy that you don't live in CA.

Just a note on aliens: I haven't seen one, but the first thing I'll do next time if one claims to be an alien is to check and see if they have balls or eggs.

Rofl.

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