Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 12:11:56 (GMT)
From: Jan 27, 2001 To: Feb 06, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


la-ex -:- Zumback was the 'world',now he's maharaji... -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 01:40:07 (GMT)
__ DJURO -:- la-ex, -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:24:33 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Maybe -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:28:55 (GMT)

Postie -:- Sat Guru or Not Guru? -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 00:49:53 (GMT)
__ baz -:- darshan experiences -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 14:08:58 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Sat Guru or Not Guru? -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 04:47:45 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- No rules and anything goes -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 01:42:41 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Paul -:- No rules and anything goes -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 12:28:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- No rules and anything goes -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:09:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Paul -:- Sit, forgott again -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 12:40:04 (GMT)
__ __ Joy -:- Archetypal Satgurus -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:47:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Archetypal Satgurus and parallel realities -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:04:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Archetypal Satgurus, parallel realities and OOBEA -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 16:53:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Was he or wasn't he -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:38:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Was he or wasn't he -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:25:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ baz -:- experiences -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:55:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- experiences -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:36:40 (GMT)

Scott T. -:- Am I just imaginig it... -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 23:51:32 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- How about The Tavistock Process -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:53:19 (GMT)
__ __ Peter Howie -:- How about The Tavistock Process -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 03:08:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- anth's rating system would accomplish it by # -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 08:57:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- the group would rather kill the interpreter -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 03:14:55 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- How about The Tavistock Process -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:24:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- libertarian? -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 05:32:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- libertarian? Not hardly. -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 15:52:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- agree Katie -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:55:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Susan and Katie -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:21:33 (GMT)
__ A newy -:- Am I just imaginig it...no it is real -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 08:06:41 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Hi, Newy. I'm new too -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 09:46:19 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Don't worry -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 04:25:13 (GMT)
__ ham -:- Hardly Scott -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 00:43:27 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Am I just imaginig it... -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 00:07:17 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- to all ya all :) -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 01:19:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- I can't read them all either -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 01:30:53 (GMT)

Charles S -:- Joy, do you feel that if someone... -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 22:04:26 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- I love this thread- thanks guys nt -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 03:11:36 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Charles, I've been wondering -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:17:15 (GMT)
__ __ Charles S -:- Toe Jam and Krishna Crowns... -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 21:15:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Great post -- reminded me why I hung out ... -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 06:14:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Being in the anti-cult cult -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:50:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Charles S -:- Old time religion with a new-age twist... -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:32:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Old time devotion and worship -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 17:40:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Toe Jam and Krishna Crowns...great post nt -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 23:45:15 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Experiment with the techniques. -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 11:19:52 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Joy, do you feel that if someone... -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 23:28:07 (GMT)
__ __ Charles S -:- 'To behave with dignity is nothing less than... -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 02:47:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- To Charles...and a reply to Anth -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 14:21:14 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- I'm with you and charles on this one -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 12:37:30 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Robyn, you say, ''Different strokes...'' -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 04:35:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- What distinguishes humans from other animals? -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:20:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Lesley - humans from other animals? -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:59:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- I used to think about this stuff before K -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:20:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- So, Patrick, Do You Think............(ns?) -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:40:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- So, Monmot -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:43:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joy -:- I Knew You Guys Weren't Going to -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:17:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Charles S -:- Joy, meditation vs devotion -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:53:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Meditation.... -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:44:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- One thing I must conceded to my dear friend Joy -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:35:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- One thing I must conceded to my dear friend Fran -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:52:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- And yet one more thing before this thread goes ... -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 06:42:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Joy, like I said to Francesca -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:28:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Like I said to Tim, below -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 06:49:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Paul -:- To Bella Fransesca -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 13:31:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Vive la liberation, Jean-Paul -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:14:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Francesca, oops but thanks too -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 09:30:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Sorry for the bad html -- but the link works n/t -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 06:56:26 (GMT)

gee -:- getting up to speed -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 21:33:39 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- getting up to speed -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 22:26:00 (GMT)

Danny -:- The Eye of the Beholder -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 19:52:50 (GMT)
__ salam -:- great post. -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:36:31 (GMT)
__ janet -:- what am I?--chopped liver??? i dont count? -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:45:39 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Why did the chicken cross the road? -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:07:59 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Anth, you're a breath of fresh air -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:16:04 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- The Eye of the Beholder: Danny's response.. -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:10:22 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Good one, LAX ! -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:16:25 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Would have been a Drek *BEST*, but... -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 22:31:51 (GMT)
__ __ Danny -:- Would have been a Drek *BEST*, but... -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 21:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ Curious George -:- Hillarious Danny Definately Best Of -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:29:28 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- That's really funny Roger (nt) -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 11:32:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I think that Danny == Bob (nt) -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:27:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- I asked bob -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:30:41 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- Eye witness -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 20:47:21 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Excellent report Michael:)............nt -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 23:57:05 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Michael don't mince your words -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 21:08:32 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Not bad ... but you forgot a few -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 20:40:05 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Not bad ... but you forgot a few -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 20:46:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Danny -:- That's the spirit, JHB and Jim nt -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 21:05:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- None of this is funny at all -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:40:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- None of this is funny at all -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:26:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- but which came first? -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:52:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- That's very funny Danny, -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 22:36:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Danny -:- That's very funny Danny, -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 08:12:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex-ex-lax -:- Danny,you know us so well,it's like family... -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 21:32:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Glad to see you guys having some fun.... -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 22:37:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Danny, you're a chicken who's needs to cross road -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:59:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Danny -:- Danny, you're a chicken, etc. -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 08:18:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Danny, spoken like a true gentleman -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:03:16 (GMT)

Bazza -:- Hey Mike Finch, get yer wallet out -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 17:49:57 (GMT)
__ Mike Finch -:- Hey Mike Finch, get yer wallet out -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:08:11 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- Howdy Mr Finch -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 03:48:51 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- Hey Mike Finch, get yer wallet out -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 18:31:16 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Intellectual Satsang -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 13:47:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Intellectual Satsang -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:02:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- One question -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 03:57:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh Mike, I couldn't agree with you more! -- NOT -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 03:57:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ EXiT -:- Intellectual Satsang -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:48:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Intellectual Satsang -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:11:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hi Mike -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:09:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Intellectual Satsang -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:59:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Intellectual Satsang, no hint given -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:44:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Hey Mike -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:45:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Hey Mike -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:05:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Hey Mike/I think you should stay... -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:38:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Hey Mike -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:52:16 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- One and the same...NT -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 19:40:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Your questions... -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 02:36:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- The heart of Premie soulessness -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 17:01:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- hi again Mike. -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:23:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Response to your reponse -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:08:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- your reply -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 04:35:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ baz -:- satguru or not guru -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 14:30:42 (GMT)

salam -:- janet: check this -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 16:46:14 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Health and safety issues -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 04:05:45 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Not my area -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:30:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brendan Murphy -:- Impressive! A little Professional Discernment (n -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 13:15:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Where's your pecs, buddy? -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 14:44:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Marianne, I emailed you OT -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:47:47 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Health and safety issues -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 04:37:47 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Check this -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 20:44:56 (GMT)
__ Patrick Conlon -:- More Orwellian double-speak from the cult -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 19:31:48 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Patrick, you don't need a lobodomy... -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 22:49:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Cynthia (OT) -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:44:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- P.S. I hate word ''TEAMWORK'' Barf.....(nt) -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 22:53:03 (GMT)
__ JTF -:- This is outrageous Bull Shit from the EV cult (nt) -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 18:01:40 (GMT)

Know It All -:- Journalists are reading this site -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 14:24:25 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- Journalists are reading this site -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:59:07 (GMT)
__ Brian S -:- It's about time some real light was shed on this -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 21:49:56 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Two articles in the air. -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 14:37:37 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- when? -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 04:35:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Salam.... -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 13:53:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ what -:- is it now -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:17:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- How much is the registration and camping fee? -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:44:25 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Two articles in the air/can you tell us more?nt -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 01:16:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- It's a secret. -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:21:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Anth-do you know the' tone 'of the articles?nt -:- Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:46:56 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Cool -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 00:00:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Know It All -:- Details will be forthcoming -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:15:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Details will be forthcoming -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:38:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- notify us by private email--not on here..nt -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:59:40 (GMT)
__ __ Tim G -:- Something on this side of the pond too nt -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 16:08:37 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 01:40:07 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Zumback was the 'world',now he's maharaji...
Message:
I recently heard the old story of Zumback, the tailor, once again.

A brief summary, for those who don't know the story:

Zumback is the greatest tailor, or suit maker, in the village.
His suits are masterpieces, and anyone who has one is considered to be a very special and lucky person.

A man goes to Zumback and orders a suit.
He returns a week later to pick up the suit.
As he tries it on, it doesn't fit right;in fact it's way off, with one sleeve way too long, and the back all bunched up.

He complains about this to Zumback as he tries the suit on at the shop.
Zumback shows the man that if he leans way over to one side, the long sleeve staightens out.
And if he scrunches his shoulders forward in a very deformed manner, the bunching up in the back goes away.

Relieved, and trusting in the judgement of the great Zumback, he pays a hefty sum for the strange suit, and walks out of the shop, to proudly show off his suit to the rest of the people in the village.To retain the 'fit', he walks about hunched over, and leaning far to his right.

The first man he sees praises him for his fine suit.'That must be a Zumback suit' he exclaims.
'It is' replies the man.
'It's a fine suit, and isn't that Zumback an incredible tailor, to be able to fashion such a great fit for such a deformed person such as you'.

Now, I seem to recall that story being told before.
'The World', with it's concepts,was Zumback.
M was the guy who told you to take the suit off and in so doing, become yourself...

I think we took off Zumback's suit, and replaced it with a nice new white suit, also known as a 'straightjacket', kindly supplied by m.

It feels so good to take it off.
'Suits' me just fine....

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:24:33 (GMT)
From: DJURO
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: la-ex,
Message:
hope to see you soon, verry soon.
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 19:28:55 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: DJURO
Subject: Maybe
Message:
verry soon!
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 00:49:53 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Sat Guru or Not Guru?
Message:
A few threads further down touched on the idea of M at one time having been on the right track only to lose his way.

While revisiting the last 29 years since being initiated to K, I wrote the following as part of my journey (still at the proof-readers'). I post this excerpt now in an attempt at finding out what common thread brought us to M and K in the first place and was there some reality to it. Was he or wasn't he?


Guru Puja in Montrose, Colorado and Holy Breath

The summer of 1972 I saw Guru Maharaj Ji for the first time, having received K earlier that year. I signed up to be a photographer and when GMJ arrived on site, I kneeled a foot away from him while Bais and Mahatmas sang arti. I kneeled because when I approached him my legs went to jello. There was a tremendous reverence being displayed and I was overwhelmed.

The big event was something called darshan where the devotee would pass by GMJ and bow down. This seemed perfectly natural and in fact desirable thing to do after reading so much about Eastern Guru-Devotee protocol. It truly was a scene of dramatic and scriptural heavy-osity. A very beautiful setting and incredible feeling. You were told by the traditional Mahatmas that one always brought an offering when approaching the Guru so I got that together and got in line. We were also told that you could ask for a special once-in-a-lifetime blessing called Holy Breath by cupping your right hand to your right ear. When it was my turn I bowed down but forgot to ask for Holy Breath. Later at lunch I got so agitated by not doing it right that I grabbed a banana (offering) and ran back to get in line. This time when I bowed down, my head went between GMJ's feet and a bolt of lightening shot through my head. It was as if I was Frankenstein's monster and GMJ's feet were the electrodes. I came up and cupped my hand to my right ear, GMJ sort of cupped his hand to his mouth and blew towards my ear saying 'OK'. What happened next is profound and intrigues me to this day. Wind roared in my ear, I pressed my hands together at my chest, 'flew' way up above the proceedings and was surrounded by white light and the sound of angels singing. I swear this happened. A few moments later, I was back on the path leading down the hill and a WPC brother was standing there nodding and grinning. The experience I've described contributed to me living in the ashram in Denver for 3 years (1973 - 1976) and practicing K for fourteen years.

Was He or Wasn't He?

It has been my long held belief that at that moment and for awhile afterward, GMJ was indeed a vehicle/conduit for Sat Guru, God, Cosmic Consciousness, Unity Experience, The Perennial Philosophy or whatever. Apparently I was a vehicle, too. I still believe such a force exists and is not the possession of any person or religion but is part of the creative urge that brought forth everything. This cannot be proven scientifically but I'm interested in discussing it. I have no other way of explaining what happened to me. But that doesn't stop me from trying so here goes.

A friend who is a mythologist provides a possibly helpful insight. There are aspects of human consciousness we do not understand except through their symbolic representations. These 'archetypes' include the Greek and Roman Gods (Zeus, etc), Jung's Archetypes (King, Lover, Magician), and numerous Native American characters (The Trickster, etc). Within this modality, states of consciousness can be explained by focusing on the archetype rather than the person, i.e. 'The Trickster is certainly acting up again' rather than 'Everyone is out to get me.' (Please, please all you amateur archetypal psychologists out there - this is at best a weak explanation of AP so quibble or correct as you will.) Or 'Eros is nearby' rather than 'I'm so horny I could scream'.

Following this reasoning - if I can call it that, President Kennedy stood in the 'King' spotlight for a short while and became the 'King', ruler of 'Camelot'. JFK was not the king but he was the 'King'. (Go with me here.) In the same vein, Prem Pal Singh Rawat, while not literally Sat Guru, was 'Sat Guru'. He stood in that pool of light that is 'Sat Guru'. Why that pool of light exists and why him is a mystery but not exclusive to him specifically or only then. (Woo wooeee- there, I said it first.) What is clear is that he was groomed to be 'Sat Guru' and we held a huge expectation that he was 'Sat Guru'. A kind of Sat Guru hologram existed with us providing the lasers. The problem came when GMJ literalized his role as Sat Guru. At some point the 'Sat Guru' spotlight no longer shown on PPSR although many think it still does.

I still think I benefited from surrendering to the 'Sat Guru' in a classic guru/devotee way. GMJ represented the 'Sat Guru' to me up to a point in time, regardless of what happened later. Within that context, I benefited. I approached my devotion as a mythological path. In other words, I think I was able to disassociate myself (ego, logic) from my involvement. I sort of let myself the 'devotee' pranam to GMJ the 'Sat Guru'. I preferred not to let myself the hippie meet Prem Pal the spoiled teenager. This may be revisionist or selective memory but the best theory I can put forth right now.

I am not bitter about my time served back then. To be clear, I no longer follow M or practice K. Further I think M has let down his end of the bargain and ignored the personal damage caused by his own indifference. In his arrogance, he may still believe he is 'Sat Guru'. The above 'unexplainable' experience may be why it is so difficult for the old-time believers to let go (that was true for me) and the newcomers to not relate - they never had those kinds of non-ordinary experiences.

Postie

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 14:08:58 (GMT)
From: baz
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: darshan experiences
Message:
I first had darshan back in '76. Like you I experienced something very powerful, holy breath seemed to take me
outside my body, and looking into m's eyes was like
being at the centre of universal conciousness. Hard to
really describe the whole thing but it blew me away on
a mental and a physical level. Afterwards I remember
thinking that if I never experienced anything like that
again at least I had once in this lifetime! The festival
at which this happened had been three days of loud and
lousy rock music and boring satsang from Indian mahatmas,
I remember feeling quite p*ssed of by the whole thing,and
definitely not in some receptive brainwashed state before I
entered the darshan room,
Needless to say I never experienced anything like this again
in other darshans even though I considered myself to have been
more 'in tune' at other events. I know my experience is far
from unique and even in my current state of disillusionment
with m I sometimes wonder what it all meant.
baz

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 04:47:45 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Sat Guru or Not Guru?
Message:
Postie:

That's an amazing story. I can certainly see why you might attribute the experience to Maharaji, but since you have doubts yourself you've come up with a theory about archetypes rather than personalities. As an alternative, it might have been the circumstances of your own life that were awaiting some sort of catalyst.

In 1969 I walked into the living room of some people I had just met in Seattle, laid down on the couch, and looked at TV that had been turned off. Somehow I connected with the TV and the connection excited some sort of energy (well, it couldn't have actually been energy) and I left my body and sort of exploded into another dimension. Looking back, it was as though the world I had left was a two dimensional place, like a picture on a screen, and I had just become part of the 'audience.' I was outside the screen looking at the show I had just been a part of. I called this dimensionally expended place 'heaven.' After having registered the experience I was immediately brought back 'into' my body, which seems to be the key to being part of the show. Had Maharaji been there I'd have certainly attributed the experience to him. Instead, I attributed it to these people I had just met... until it was clear they had no idea what I was talking about. They looked at me like I was nuts when I told them about it, and I had just seen them as a 'flat' picture or image anyway, so the notion that they had caused something wasn't too convincing. But I did sort of have an impression that they were really some 2D image of an ageless eternal being that was here in this place, and also some other places at vastly different locations in the universe, and that this little image didn't know very much about the being it was a representation of.

After awhile that experience sort of faded, but I was confused for a long time. I'm a pretty rational fellow, but there's still a part of me that demands something more of 'reality' than that I can just rap my knuckles on it.

So now I'm some sort of new ager I guess; except that I'm just relating an experience. I don't really know what the hell it was, or what it means... and I'm loathe to speculate. I'm pretty sure it was more than neurons firing, but if that's all it was then we oughta try to figure out how to do it deliberately. It was REALLY COOL.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 01:42:41 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Postie
Subject: No rules and anything goes
Message:
I was once (as a premie) in a bedroom with a girl who had recently received knowledge and I was talking to her and she said that she got so incredibly high as I was talking to her, more high than she had ever been in the presence of any Mahatmas or Maharaji, even.

I wasn't feeling that high but I did feel pretty good.

There is no rule or pre-defined reality about all of this. I am at the moment, reading a very good and honest autobiography. It is 'My Story' by Ron Kray. Ron Kray was the twin brother of Reg Kray and these two were the famous Kray Twins of East London in the fifties and sixties. They were basically big time gangsters who controlled the whole of London by the time they were finally imprisoned in 1969. They were the two most feared men in the country at that time.

Anyway, I am finding reading Ron Kray's autobiography an incredibly uplifting experience. More so than any 'spiritual' book I have ever read.

I believe, there is incredible scope for opening up to new possibilities and perspectives and we never know just what the next conduit will be that will open our eyes and broaden our experience and perception.

I don't personally believe in all this 'spiritual' stuff. It's not meat and drink to me although it is for some people. Everybody has their own meat and drink, if you follow my drift - the things that inspire them and motivate them and help them through their lives.

I believe there are no rules. You did experience something pretty amazing and I think you are right in saying that it wasn't Mr Rawat or even his doing. Other people there were probably bored out of their minds. Now, as a long time ex-premie, I don't look to Maharaji or other so called 'spiritual teachers' for my inspiration. There is the whole of life to explore and inspire one. And that inspiration can come from the most unlikely sources, if we let it.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 12:28:27 (GMT)
From: Jean-Paul
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: No rules and anything goes
Message:
We are all alive. We can communicate, be inspired and learn from anybody. There are no categories. I don’t see contradictions between listening to « spiritual » teacher, my neighbour, a peasant in Burma etc…There are no rules to be open. Everybody finds it for himself. We can learn from all these confrontations. It is nice and it is fun. Nothing is definitive.
Just to get out of my limitations and the trip goes on.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:09:41 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Sir Dave, Jean-Paul
Subject: No rules and anything goes
Message:
Sir Dave, Jean-Paul -

You both kind of spun the thread in a new and interesting direction.

J-P: 'I don’t see contradictions between listening to « spiritual » teacher, my neighbour, a peasant in Burma etc…'

SD: ' I believe, there is incredible scope for opening up to new possibilities and perspectives and we never know just what the next conduit will be that will open our eyes and broaden our experience and perception.'

These wise observations remind me of years ago saying you can learn from anyone, even the garbage man. Looking back, that may have been a justification of sorts to help relate to following a teenage guru. But I do believe this is true - you can learn from anything or anyone. I do think our preconceived notions about teacher's image helps catalyze the learning as well. An example is in the world of healing. It is easier for a westerner to have their doctor dressed in a white coat wearing a stethescope while a rural African would prefer masks and rattles. So when GMJ arrived, the robes and tilaks and incense fit the image of a 'real' guru. Lately, though I try to see beyond the costume to see if there is something of value to be learned - not easy but I try.

Postie

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 12:40:04 (GMT)
From: Jean-Paul
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sit, forgott again
Message:
Before everyone jumps on me I add that bij spiritual teacher, I don’t refer to Maharaji. This one is no teacher. He is ignorant and manipulator of naive people. Ouf!!
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:47:12 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Archetypal Satgurus
Message:
That's an interesting concept, Postie, about the Archetypal Satguru. I wonder what Jung would have made of that one!

But I sort of think that the power of projection is very strong, and if enough people are projecting that someone is divine, then it kind of makes them so (whether they actually are or not). You actually expected to have something incredible happen to you, and via kissing Maharaji's feet, and it really did, in spades. I think we all projected the Satguru thing onto Maharaji (at his and the 'holy family''s instigation, I don't think we could've thought that one up ourselves).

I had a really amazing experience once in satsang also, just an ordinary Denver satsang night, when my whole consciousness just sort of opened up to something much, much bigger, and it didn't have anything to do with the satsang that was given or whatever. I just let my heart open somehow, and found myself rooted to the chair unable to move or speak for some time after most people had left the hall. It was such a powerful experience I couldn't come out of it very easily back into ordinary consciousness. I don't know what it was, but in that environment, I was able to open myself up to that experience, which I normally wouldn't have done otherwise, that's for sure.

I don't know why I'm relating this, this seems to be the thread for this kind of thing, and I'm not sure what I even want to say about it all, but I do think the Archetypal Satguru concept an interesting one, and one which could explain a lot of the early DLM phenomenon. Other groups seemed to have it too, such as the Moonies, Krishnas, etc. But I just wonder . . . is it actually an experience of truth, or just our projections which are giving us the experience? Does it matter? Is the experience itself truth, and is truth totally subjective for each individual? In which case it wouldn't matter where you got it from, would it? I have heard that somewhere in India there is a rock which gives darshan and people have blissful experiences being around it. Is this rock actually giving darshan, or are we projecting the darshan experience onto the rock, and the blissful experience of darshan is somehow there inside us all the time?

Like I said, I don't know where this is heading, I'm just rambling. Appreciate your post and thoughts, though. Look forward to hearing more from you on the site, your posts are very insightful.

Love,
Joy

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:04:26 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Archetypal Satgurus and parallel realities
Message:
I had experiences in darshan that were quite indescribable for years. I think this is a very interesting thread. Actually I think that it may be true that MJ was a pretty powerful channel for something or other for a while. I've come to experience life or existence or whatever as having multiple dimensions or realities. The whole dimension about the cult being bogus and motivated by money and power greed is quite valid, I find. And simultaneously there is - or at least WAS - a dimension in which I experienced a lot of bliss and realization. I found this dimension faded over the years, and I stayed way too long (till 1984) trying to revive it, and unable to explain to myself how it could co-exist with the crap I was now seeing.

The way I now understand it is a bit similar to one of the posters above. There is an infinite universe of bliss and love and other enjoyable and intense flavors of consciousness to be experienced. It can come through many different doorways. I just read the entire Spenser private eye series of novels while I was sick, and experienced quite a bit of expanded consciousness doing it. Some doorways are quite effective at initiating people into other dimensions. The original satguru/knowledge set-up was okay- quite liberating in fact - for me in the time-space coordinates of the 60's and 70's (the beginning) and may be okay in rural India.

It's challenging to deal with the reality of parallel realities, even though physics clearly describes it. My wish for this forum is that posters expand to embrace each other's differing realities.

Love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 16:53:07 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Scott, Joy, Disculta, baz
Subject: Archetypal Satgurus, parallel realities and OOBEA
Message:
Thank you for responding to this thread. I really wanted to explore what went on back then and why. And thanks for sharing your outrageous non-ordinary / parallel universe / open heart stories. Maybe we should start a 12-step group called OOBEA = Out-Of-Body-Experiences-Anonymous.

Scott, your comment 'As an alternative, it might have been the circumstances of your own life that were awaiting some sort of catalyst' is profound and I believe very true. It also turns everything around a bit and puts the experiencer in the driver's seat so to speak. In other words, it was me who was ready for 'that' experience to happen. By the way, is it possible to put your hands on that television set? We could make some serious coin renting it out by the hour - like the closet in Being John Malcovich.

Disculta, your observation 'Actually I think that it may be true that MJ was a pretty powerful channel for something or other for a while' picks up the real intention of my post - was he or wasn't he the Sat Guru at one time. My wanting to sort this out doesn't change what he's become today, but it helps understand how I came to believe in GMJ and K so deeply.

Postie

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:38:09 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Was he or wasn't he
Message:
I know what you mean when you say that this is the real question you want answered. The thing is, it was a relative reality and from the inside it seeemed like an absolute reality, as most realities do when passionately espoused (including atheism and our current belief that MJ is an idiot). The observer just creates all necessary evidence for his/her beliefs and magnetizes a rendezvous with the multidimensional universal train of events that s/he thinks is the 'observed' and which proves them to him/her. It's all done by mirrors.

So maybe all we can say is that it was really real from the inside, when we were experiencing it, and before the realities from other reality strands started to penetrate our blissed-out world.

There probably is no answer to 'was he or wasn't he.' I don't believe the universe works in absolute terms. Was he the satguru according to which authority? In whose experience? Not my dad's for sure! Not mine any more. It was my experience then, absolutely! Something powerful was going on. Sometimes the energies of life self-organize into powerful entities that take on a life of their own. Actually they do this all the time, according to chaos theory. I think that multiple strands of thought and need and human passion converged for a while to create an experience so powerful that many of us are still scratching our heads about it. And the funny thing is, there are people who were in lots of other cults who are still scratching their heads about it all too. Many of them had 'perfecet masters' too.

Don't mean to lecture. I'm just pontificating and I think this thread is important in that it can dislodge some fixated attention that some of us may have about this topic. Has for me.

Love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:25:30 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Was he or wasn't he
Message:
Very articulate and no, I don't mind the pontification. You have summarized a respectable answer to my question. I would say the answer to 'Was he or wasn't he?' is yes and no because both possibilities were true for me at the time. I've wondered if it was schyzophrenic but maybe it was simply that both were true simaltaneously. This goes back to my original post where I speculate 'I think I was able to disassociate myself (ego, logic) from my involvement. I sort of let myself the 'devotee' pranam to GMJ the 'Sat Guru'. I preferred not to let myself the hippie meet Prem Pal the spoiled teenager.' He was both of those things depending on who was viewing the situation.

The non-ordinary experiences that we've shared are probably no different than ones like Saul being struck dumb on the road to Damascus, the burning bush and so on. Those individual experiences gave rise to Biblical chapters that now help current so-called Christians justify their belief system. Similarly, current day PWK's to some extent rely on those old non-ordinary experiences to justify ongoing involvement while all logic says to run the other way. I imagine M's supposed supernatural attributes are merely alluded to when it comes to the recent PWK's - you know wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

Thanks for helping me sort this out. By the way you were indirectly responsible for me exiting M's world back in about 1986 or so. I'll contact you offline.

Toasted Postie

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:55:32 (GMT)
From: baz
Email: None
To: all aove
Subject: experiences
Message:
I find myself in the strange position of having started reading this site to confirm my doubts about m (which it has)and yet at
the same time it has led to me remembering amazing experiences
from over 25 years ago. The knowledge session with Jagdeo (who
I know read is a child abuser) was unbelievable,instant bliss
and realisation of some infinite power within. Words could never
describe it, yet despite many hours of meditation afterwards,
I nver really experienced anything quite like it again. To make
things worse I had seen and tried some of the techniques before,
only succeeding in making myself dizzy (hyperventilating).
Coincidence hardly seems to be a likely explanation, especially
when so many other people have experienced similar things.
The possibility that m had some power divine power creates some
interesting questions:
What sort of experiences are new converts having?
If m had some divine power is it now lost or diluted?
If so, is this a result of his actions which fill the the pages
of this website?
If we were all still having the sort of experiences which brought us under the dlm banner would we still be there today?
baz
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 18:36:40 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: baz
Subject: experiences
Message:
Good questions baz. I too, wonder what new PWK's are experiencing. I don't think the 'power of love' as we knew it is there anymore, though.

Postie

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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 23:51:32 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Am I just imaginig it...
Message:
or is the volume of forum posts going way up. I can't even follow a thread any more, and sure don't have time to read everything. It also looks like there are a lot of new names. Might be some of the same old people, but maybe there are some newly disillusioned premies. Are more people exiting? Anyway, I just can't keep up any longer.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:53:19 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: How about The Tavistock Process
Message:
Scott,

As a long time lurker and infrequent poster, I agree. There are times when this forum is a vessel holding gorgeous ideas and insight. At those times, the many who lurk are benefitting in a big way, especially with Dettmers and others coming forth. Unfortunately, it oftens resembles children fighting over a filthy toy - who said what and when and how. Many of the recent posts have degenerated thusly. Not dissimilar to Capitol Hill, eh? At those times, the forum loses it's much needed credibility and those gorgeous ideas get lost.

Anyway, here is an idea that may be helpful. Years ago I was introduced to something called The Tavistock Process. In this process, a group is observed by someone or several people whose sole function is to remind the group of it's purpose. When the group discussion got off point, the Tavistock observor(s) would simply state 'The group is not keeping to it's stated purpose' or something similar. Neutral and non-judgemental but with the goal of keeping the discussion on target.

I know as a recently new anonymous poster I have no real authority here but as a long time lurker, I think I've earned the right to help improve the forum. Others may see these tedious squabbles as to the point - I don't know.

Postie

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 03:08:42 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: How about The Tavistock Process
Message:
Hi there.

Often, in the Tavistock type model, when interpretations of the group's process are made the group seems to ignore them anyway. This then can feed into the next interpretation. Anyone can also make the same interpretations - so go for it. However don't expect to be loved.

For instance - If people then attempt to shoot you down in flames after some such comment, you would need to make an interpretation like 'It seems that the group would rather kill the interpreter than consider the substance of what they are saying'. etc etc. Everything becomes grist for the process mill. It is a tough role to hold which is why the training in that kind of work is quite difficult.

Cheers

Peter Howie

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 08:57:50 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: anth's rating system would accomplish it by #
Message:
then readers could gauge at a glance what was on or off- purpose, by vote .
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 03:14:55 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: the group would rather kill the interpreter
Message:
Peter sez: 'It seems that the group would rather kill the interpreter than consider the substance of what they are saying'.

Hmmm, I see the downside and it aint pretty.

Thanks,

Postie

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:24:43 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: How about The Tavistock Process
Message:
That is a good idea, but I think it would be much easier to enforce in a formal 'real world' situation (as you describe). If the FA, or someone else, said 'This group is not keeping to it's stated purpose' (we don't have a stated purpose, by the way, except 'anything and everything'), it would be followed with an entire thread of protests, jokes, OT's, etc. In my opinion, anyway :).

It's extremely difficult to control what people post to this forum (also in my opinion). Although there have been many attempts, a lot of people here tend to resist control and authority of any kind because of their experiences in M's world.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 05:32:35 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: libertarian?
Message:
You've always take a libertarian pose in your posts, but actually you know some rules are important and have sought to enforce them. Where enforcement is difficult (and it clearly is here), then it's probably more about making sure rules are well-defined and posted in the same way they are enforced. They aren't. Also an idea of what is the most serious rule-breaking (i.e., calls for blocking etcetera) should be included.

Obviously people have issues with authority both exes and premies, but that doesn't make it right. But that doesn't make it right for them to fuck with people, particularly others who have been through the same shit with Maharaji.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 15:52:08 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: libertarian? Not hardly.
Message:
First, please don't make generalizations about me, such as 'you have always taken a libertarian stance in your posts.' I don't think anyone (except perhaps you) would characterize me as libertarian - either here or in the real world. My post was actually based on practical experience. I am not encouraging anyone to 'fuck with' anyone else. However, it does happen - just an observation.

I also feel that it's counter-productive to keep saying what a bad job the FA's are doing at enforcement. I do agree that rules need to be defined and stated clearly, but I think that is in process.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:55:33 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: agree Katie
Message:
Postie, the few posts you make I really like too.

I wish that things could be more to the point here too. But, I don't see how it could happen.

As Katie said, many former premies have a strong distaste for authority figures, limits on what it is accetable to discuss, etc. Recall once we lived in a world where people were made to feel guilty for partaking of 'chit chat'. I think we have to have as few rules here, and as little censorship, as we can. There are a few rules, good ones, and even those are questioned from time to time.

One thing I find a comfort is a person who wants to get the scoop without joining in the free for all can read ex premie org website, and there is a highlights of forum section there too. Some of the information here is very important to wavering premies, families and loved ones of premies, or anyone interested in the Maharaji cult. I think it is always available by clicking on ex premie org, and DLM/EV papers, as the top.

I do postie understand your frustration. It is just a really hard thing to fix given the nature of the history we all share.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:21:33 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Susan and Katie
Subject: Susan and Katie
Message:
Thanks for your sympathy re: on-topic consistency. Anarchy might be fun (although a few hundred thousand Seattleites would disagree) and 100 monkies banging away on typewriters could conceivably write Gone With The Wind but Margaret Mitchell did it by focusing on her task.

No, I'm not calling anyone a monkey. Or monkey's uncle or monkey's aunt or .....

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 08:06:41 (GMT)
From: A newy
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Am I just imaginig it...no it is real
Message:
dont worry lots of people are reading this stuff
it is a good idea to re post stuff on a regular basis, for example the re post of CBA was great, also re posts of MVD's would be good, keeps it active and not every can surf the site so easily
a newy
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 09:46:19 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: A newy
Subject: Hi, Newy. I'm new too
Message:
After you've been here for a couple of weeks you'll see that the same stuff gets said again and again. Just hang in there and you'll get the bigger picture.

If you wait for - I don't know how many days - it all gets put in the archives and you can plow through that or use the search engine.

Brian (the Original) does all the scut work like archiving.

Sir Dave did the search engine.

Katie is the perfect hostess.

Janet is the e.e.cummings of EPO.

Salam is the jester.

Roger eDrek keeps us from going mad with earnestness.

TED Farkel backs him up but is a bore with his holy roller piety.

Jim specializes in giving people spinal cords.

Marianne specializes in writing exposes of the cult and being a fruit fly.

Ham specializes in trainspotting.

Anth drops koans like a socialite drops names at a ball.

Thelma is a thunderstealing bitch.

I could go on but I'm sure you'll get the picture all by yourself.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 04:25:13 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Don't worry
Message:
I lost the plot a while back, do not know who is who lately, but am certain of one thing,

rawat still sucks.

So just say what's on your mind.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 00:43:27 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Hardly Scott
Message:
It's been averaging approx 180-190 posts a day for a few weeks now.
Apart from when rows break out, when occasionally it would hit 180 a day, occasional periods usually when key testimony was given it would rise to approx 130, but usually for no more than a few days.

I know that up til less than a year ago it averaged 80-90 posts a day fairly consistently.

The increase has coincided with the arrival of Michael Dettmers, which of course does not prove a direct correlation, it could just be a social change, maybe gm has gone past some parameter boundary, maybe that premies were slow to get on the net, technophobia etc, maybe this new fake teamwork corporate mentality, maybe the age of premies, awareness of death looming, the big five o and all that, maybe safety in numbers threshold has been breached....your guess is as good as mine, but it certainly seems downhill now rather than cycling into the wind.

Personally feel it's reached the point where it would be impossible, without making it your career, to read everything regularly, very healthy, no longer just a little cabal, much more like a party where choices about which conversations to drop into etc.

Do think the one danger is that irregularities about gm & his lifestyle could be missed.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 00:07:17 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Am I just imaginig it...
Message:
I can't keep up either. I don't even try. I really wish someone would post a 'forum highlights' paragraph each week like they do in Soap Opera Digest. Seriously I can't keep up. I rely on the kindness of people I email with to alert me to really great posts/threads.

It's like shoveling snow in a snowstorm which is basically what housework is like especially if you have kids....

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 01:19:44 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: to all ya all :)
Message:
Dear Scott,
Definitely! I wanted to read the Nero-theory thread and got to it today, posted 2 posts and moments later it went inactive. I find myself wishing that the active list could hold more! I agree with ham and Helen, that one downfall is missing good, interesting, important posts and threads.
On the other hand it is great to see all the new people here and I do hope it means more are leaving or at least reading the info available here.
Hope you are well, Scott.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 01:30:53 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I can't read them all either
Message:
And I am a pretty fast reader - plus I used to have to read all the posts. Glad I don't have to do that any more - I feel sorry for the FA's!

Hey y'all!
Katie

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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 22:04:26 (GMT)
From: Charles S
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Joy, do you feel that if someone...
Message:
...practices the four techniques, that they are legitimizing the bad things M. does?

I can understand your aversion to M's four techniques. But for many of us, especially for those of us who didn't live in the ashram, there wasn't as much 'other stuff' attached to it. For instance, I never did pranam-ing before or after, like you mentioned in your post below, so things like that have not been a problem for me since leaving.

For me, the techniques were very simple, and they helped me. They were so simple, in fact, that I often wondered why I was told I NEEDED to keep in touch with the guru for the rest of my life. There are stories of saints in India who only ever saw their guru once, and they supposedly managed without chasing the guru everywhere. For that reason I loved Brian Too's post about having a teacher who never lets you graduate from the course, it really spoke to me.

I assumed that the reason for 'keeping in touch' was for inspiration. And over the years, M. was sometimes inspiring in the practice of meditation. I'm sorry if that upsets you, but I think it is really important to recognize, that for many people, the only reason they stayed involved for as long as they did was because they were getting something good out of it. Something good out of it, DESPITE all the crap that was mixed up with it. I have trouble with the idea that because now that I am an ex, I have to renounce EVERYTHING to do with M. as being all bad, and if I don't, I am implying that it's all good, that I am somehow validating him.

Joy, his four techniques are not HIS. They aren't! They have been given away freely by wandering holy men in India for centuries. The four techniques are Kriya yoga, which is why M. wants a promise to keep them secret, lest anyone discover that his special K. is available freely, from many sources, and can be practiced without a guru at all. What I experiance in meditation has nothing to do with M. himself.

Of course, that isn't what M. teaches. Right from the start, I was being indoctrinated into bhakti yoga, without actually being told that was the process I was being introduced to. For years I tried to love the guru. Sometimes I did feel a sort of impersonal love for him, if he did say something useful or inspiring. But quite often he was boring and unsinspiring, and even arrogant and bizzare. I hung in there for 20 years, hoping it would get better, but it only got worse. The past several years he has been reintroducing more Radhasomi religion, especially the bhakti yoga, and the focus is more on himself than even the techiniques. It's become impersonal, boring and embarrasing. AND expensive.

Some premies have hung in there for a long time, because they are really into the bhakti yoga, they never do the techniques, they are guru groupies, and that is all they want. Others, like myself, got something out of practicing the techniques, and for that reason hung it there for years, despite misgivings about a lot of things. I believe there are many people like me who are questioning wether or not they need M. And I am here to say no, you don't. It is NOT HIS KNOWLEGE. What M. has done is a very typical Radhasoami trick. He has taken an experiance that anyone can have via four techniques and claimed it comes from him, and that he is necessary to sustain it.

The angriest people on the forum seem to be the ones that got shaken down in the ashrams. But many of the rest of us, the people who are leaving now, didn't have the ashram experience, but have been shaken down for money for the past 20 years or more. Ironically, it was the GOOD experiences we had in meditation that kept us invovled for so long. So if people want to leave now, and stop donating money to M., why would you want to object to them taking with them what was good, their experience in meditation? You want them to leave, don't you? You want them to stop giving money, yes? What they experienced in meditation never belonged to M. anyway, it was a free as the air they breathed.

I don't feel as angry as some people here do. I feel I was tricked into a bhakti ju-ju, Rhadasoami Whammy thing (even if it was the 'lite' version). I'm not happy about it, but I do want to SALVAGE WHAT WAS GOOD, and move on. And share what I know, if it helps other people to leave or keep them from becoming involved. I think it should be obvious that I am not endorsing M. But neither can I say EVERYTHING I experienced was BAD. If it was all bad, I couldn't have stuck it out for 20 years. I've had email from lurkers who have said they aren't as angry as many of the people here, but they DO want to leave, but ALSO salvage what good they can from it. So if I, and others like me, now want to separate the good from the bad and part company with M., why should anyone else have a problem with that?

Joy, you and I don't have to agree about the techniques. I don't NEED you to agree with me, we can agree to disagree. Many people feel like Jim Heller, that there never WAS a baby, throw out the bathwater and the tub, too. I don't have a problem with that. The great thing about the forum is that we aren't all 'sycronized', we are real people here.

I bet you and I CAN agree on one thing though, that we would both like to help people leave. And the current new exes may be more willing to do that, if there isn't the expectation that they ought to be extremly angry and invalidate even the good things they may have experienced in their search to be happy. I think it's enough that they free themselves from the 'Radhasoami Whammy'. It's a good start, and with that begining, all the rest of the good things will come.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 03:11:36 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: I love this thread- thanks guys nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:17:15 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: Charles, I've been wondering
Message:
I can understand your aversion to M's four techniques. But for many of us, especially for those of us who didn't live in the ashram, there wasn't as much 'other stuff' attached to it. For instance, I never did pranam-ing before or after, like you mentioned in your post below, so things like that have not been a problem for me since leaving.

Charles, I meant to raise this issue with you, especially when I realized you received knowledge in Christmas Eve, 1980.

Now, maybe you didn't do pranam or live in the ashram, but if I recall correctly, the heavy devotional period was in full swing, at least until I left in 1983. I mean, you certainly kissed Maharaji's feet, didn't you? You certainly sang Arti at programs, didn't you? You certainly danced, or at least watched Maharaji dance wearing crowns and Krisha outfits, didn't you? And you couldn't help but be influenced by the 'devotion-religion' that Maharaji had turned his cult into during the early years of your involvement.

So, even though you didn't live in the ashram (and I wouldn't over-emphasize the ashram as being the main programming vehicle. Many community premies were just as cult-programmed, in some cases more so, than the ashram premies were), and received knowledge comparatively late, I wonder if you didn't still actually get a good dose of programming that whatever experience you had in the meditation was coming from Maharaji's 'grace,' or more generally, that the techniques were some kind of connection to 'god-consciousness' and all the rest.

See, I think that's the key for many of us. The techniques are just techniques of no particular significance, but if you ATTACH significance to them, that they are some kind of connection to Maharaji or something, or that they are an ancient, mystical, spiritual mumbo/jumbo practice, then I think you can see why people might throw them out. If they wanted to do meditation, it's easier to just pick another (equally good or better) method of meditation without all the baggage.

If you can strip the techniques away from all the incredible crap that Maharaji attached to them, well, good for you. It's pretty hard, though, I think, for many people, and so it's easier to chuck them and do something else, because there isn't anything mystical or special about those techniques, they are, really, just things to concentrate on. That's all they are in my opinoin, and I speak as someone who did them for 10 years, and rather enjoyed them on occasion. But my life was every bit as full and rich without them, and actually better.

Joe

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 21:15:35 (GMT)
From: Charles S
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Joe
Subject: Toe Jam and Krishna Crowns...
Message:
Joe, you said:

''Now, maybe you didn't do pranam or live in the ashram, but if I recall correctly, the heavy devotional period was in full swing, at least until I left in 1983. I mean, you certainly kissed Maharaji's feet, didn't you? You certainly sang Arti at programs, didn't you? You certainly danced, or at least watched Maharaji dance wearing crowns and Krisha outfits, didn't you? And you couldn't help but be influenced by the 'devotion-religion' that Maharaji had turned his cult into during the early years of your involvement.''

I must have kissed M's feet two or three times. It was no big deal for me. I had heard that in India, feet touching or kissing was a common way to show respect, not just to guru's, but to anyone you wished to show respect to. If nothing else, it was an excuse to get physically close to M., which of course I was curious about, with all the stories the hippy premies told. The last time I kissed his feet, in Miami, they lined us up in rows to wait, and played tacky disco music while we went through. Two security people were on either side, and they would bounce your face off his feet as you went by. I remember his socks were wet and slimy. I'm not at mind reader, but he looked bored, like he was fulfilling an abligation, and would rather have been somewhere else. It never happened again after that. Not for me, anyway.

As for Arti, I already told the story about how, on the Christmas Eve I received special K., Marsha Litener handed me the Arti tray, and asked me, with a big smile, if I would hold the arti tray and sing with everyone. I did, to be polite, but I really hated it, and thought 'Jesus, what have I gotten myself into here?' Poss, the instructor, sensed this and took me aside afterwards and told me in no uncertain terms, that I was NOT expected to sing Arti if I didn't want to, that that was not what it was all about, I just needed to remember that it was about me, M. and special K. Period.

I must have sang arti a few other times, to be polite. I never much cared for it. People would say, it's about singing to the Maharaji within each of us, and such. To me, that was religion. Religion doesn't move me emotionally, it can be turned on and off like a light switch. When Arti disapeared, I was relieved that I no longer had to deal with it.

I never danced, nor watched M. dance wearing Krishna crowns and outfits. I had seen photo's of his Krishna outfit. I thought it was cute. Ditto, religion and the light switch.

Joe, you have to remember, I came to the knowlege via the Gay Premie community in the Haight, which I don't recall seeing you mixing with. In fact, when I heard that you were gay, I thought, ''why dosen't he leave the boring old ashram and join the gay premies? They are so much more fun.'' The ashram, with it's white carpets and steril environment, gave me the creeps. But Pat kept saying, ''Just hold your nose and go for the Knowledge'', so I did.

Anyway, the gay premies in the Haight were a colorful group, and M and K was all mixed up with smoking dope, sex, light pill-poping, tarot cards, astrology, dancing an music, you name it. They were fun and interesting. Very different from your ashram experience. Perhaps other premie communities were more austere. And we had heard that the folks in Malibu disapproved of the Haight gay-premie scene, which pleased the gay premies to no end! You have to remember, the gay hippy premies were anti-authoritarian. They weren't interested in being policically correct. Many of them would take drugs and reveal the techinques to men they fancied. One did that in the back of a bus on the way to a program! They were more into dancing than pranaming. But as Pat and I became more seriously involved with eachother, we had to withdraw from that scene too, because no one had any respect for gay relationships.

As for Maharaji's grace: religion and the light switch. I even heard some of M's satsangs where he even seemed to be discouraging that kind of thinking to some extent. I saw talk about Maharaji's grace as hippy flower-child talk, very poetical. And remember, M. would often contradict himself. As a result, people would end up focusing on different parts of his satsangs. Two people might end up hearing very different things, depending on what grabbed their attention. God-conciousness? I had an open mind. Still do, and I would not presume to talk about God-conciousness, because it don't think it can be talked about. I think I am an agnostic.

Was I influenced by the devotion-religion, Joe? Probably, at least enough so that I began to make donations after the first three years. Perhaps had mis-placed, subliminal guilt for not being more 'devoted'?

The 'three promises' are quite clever:

1. Give Knowledge a fair chance.

If the techniques help you in any way at all, then it adds credibility to what Maharaji's 'teaching'. The danger is, that money making scams, or even religions or cults, will take one simple truth, (like sitting quietly can feel good), and build around it a doctrine of beliefs, lies and bullshit, that will fall apart under closer scrutiny. That's why gurus, when you get to know them better, all seem to want UNQUESTIONING devotion.

2. Don't reveal these techiniques to anyone.

Very important. If you do, someone might tell you the techinques are Kriya Yoga, there are millions of teachers, and you can practice them quite easily without a Master, that the whole 'Master' concept is 'Bakti Yoga', and is for uneducated Indian peasants, who have no problem believing in and worshiping 'semi-divine beings'. And cows.

3. Keep in touch.

It sounds so innocent. If you didn't keep in touch, and continued to practice the techniques, you might get the idea that you can have your experience without The Master. And if you start thinking that way, you might question wether or not you should keep sending him checks. And lets face it, how many of us kept in touch via our checkbooks? You couldn't keep in touch via meeting him personally, so you would buy videos, which only showed you his carefully edited stage and screen personna, and attend events where you would see more videos, and occasionally see M. as speck on a stage. Keeping in touch ultimately means, spending money. Checkbook love. It's strange to think that after 20 years of 'keeping in touch', M. is still a stranger to me, I have never actually met him one-to-one, like a real person. All's I've got are cancelled checks. In a video not too long ago, he even said 'I don't know who you are, I don't know your name, and I don't WANT to know'. I'm sure THAT'S true! Just send him your checks! That didn't give me the warm fuzzies. But it was true.

So yes Joe, I did get sucked into the devotional thing a little. Trying to love a guru did not seem like a bad thing to do. But my experience was much more subtle than what you ashram premies went through. And separating my nearly non-existant devotional feeling from the medition was not a big deal. I agree that it could be harder to do for many people. But then, we are all as different as our experiences were. Meditation for me was not strongly linked to devotion. I felt a closer bond to meditation than to M. himself. See my post to Joy below for more about that.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 06:14:44 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: freitano@hotmail.com
To: Charles S
Subject: Great post -- reminded me why I hung out ...
Message:
with the queers and hippies in the Haight, even though I lived in the ashram. I wasn't interested in the sex and drugs, so that was no temptation. Just the spirit. And when I moved out of the 'shram, I moved straight over to the Haight.

Yowsa!

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:50:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: Being in the anti-cult cult
Message:
Yeah, I suppose it is true that if you were in a community, maybe like San Francisco, that really wasn't into following what Maharaji said and was, in fact, kind of rebellious against it, that would make for a different experience. From what I understand, there is a big percentage of people who are still in the Maharaji cult who were the 'fringe' premies of the 70s.

But I really do think San Francisco was kind of unusual. Some of the other communities I lived in where much more cohesive, with DC being probably the most that way. San Francisco never really had much of an organized community. There were the ashrams and then there were a bunch of community premies, many of whom weren't really into the Elan Vital scene. Not much ever really got off the ground in the Bay Area, and I understand that's still true today.

The other variation was in communities like Malibu and Miami, where there were lots of premies, and Maharaji was around a lot, as were lots of Initiators and honchos. Those communities were also a lot more spacey, with less adherence to the rules.

One of the reasons Maharaji is such a lousy 'teacher' is because even if he did tone down the devotional rhetoric, which I saw absolutely no evidence of by the time I left in 1983, he did nothing to try to deprogram his premies from what he had indoctrinated into them before. So, you may have received knowledge and were not asked to surrender the reigns of your life, but the vast majority of premies, including what appears to be the majority of current premies, were indoctrinated by him in that way, and he fulfilled the carried out the role. That's why you were still exposed to darshan and Arti.

Are you sure you received knowledge in 1980 and not 1981? I don't think Marcia Leitner was in SF in 1980, and 1981, at least, was certainly still 'full-scale-devotion' with Holi Festival, Guru Puja and all the rest.

So, maybe there has been a switch BACK to devotion in the past few years? I understand he is giving darshan again, and I saw a video from 1997 in which he is 'dancing' again.

I also saw a revolting video from the past few years, which is nothing more than Maharaji walking around to new-age music, getting in and out of cars, with shots of clouds and some overlay of his squeaky voice. I mean, you would have to be pretty dense not to see that this video had nothing whatsoever to do with inspiring people to do meditation -- it was clear, but unstated, that Maharaji still wanted to be worshipped and devoted to. Frankly, I don't think all that much really changed. It just got a little more subtle.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 01:32:41 (GMT)
From: Charles S
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Joe
Subject: Old time religion with a new-age twist...
Message:
Joe:

You know, I think you are right, it probably was 1981 on Christmas eve that I recieved special K. The year changed eight days later, and I sometimes get it mixed up. Amar was born shortly after I recieved K. Would that put it in '81? And Marsha was definitey there. I remember her, because she was always very nice. I remember once when there was premie party in the Haight, and some of the ashram sisters came. There were some brownies to eat, regular ones for the ashramies, and brownies-plus for everyone else. I remember Marsha somehow got one from the 'wrong' plate, and everyone had a good laugh about that.

In 1997, M. 'danced', if you could call it that, on the stage at Long Beach, in his SUIT. He just waved his arms around and strutted a bit. No Krishna crown or costume. And only for a minute or so. Many of the older premies went wild. I figured it was a nostalgia treat for the older premies. All these women were waving their hands in the air and crying, with mascara running down their faces like Tammy Faye Baker. I don't think I ever saw a throne at any of his western events. You had mentioned in an earlier post that you thought the throne was making a come-back. Perhaps the Indian events? I didn't see too many of those.

But yes, I would say devotion is being actively encouraged now in a way it hasn't been in a while. Reading about the Radhasoami's helped me to understand just what he is doing. He has changed the names and terms of some things, and altered some things slighly. But it's still got it's roots in that old time religion. It's not a church, it's not a religion, it's not a cult, says he. He's right. It's all THREE. I'm going to ask the IRS what they think it is.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 17:40:03 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: Old time devotion and worship
Message:
In 1997, M. 'danced', if you could call it that, on the stage at Long Beach, in his SUIT. He just waved his arms around and strutted a bit. No Krishna crown or costume. And only for a minute or so. Many of the older premies went wild. I figured it was a nostalgia treat for the older premies. All these women were waving their hands in the air and crying, with mascara running down their faces like Tammy Faye Baker.

This must have been the video I saw. I saw the same reaction, as the camera panned the audience. But not only that, Charles, prior to that there was a long segement during which devotional songs were sung to Maharaji, and they were the exact same devotional songs we sang in the 70s, including one entitled 'PLEASE PLEASE TEACH ME DEVOTION' and 'WHEN WILL YOU DANCE WITH ME AGAIN.' The devotional stuff was not at all subtle, it was pretty blatant.

I don't think I ever saw a throne at any of his western events. You had mentioned in an earlier post that you thought the throne was making a come-back. Perhaps the Indian events? I didn't see too many of those.

Well, I think the last time I saw Maharaji on a 'throne' was at Guru Puja festival in July, 1982, which was, in fact the last 'festival' I went to when I still considered myself a premie. That was in Miami. But even though the chair he sat in in that 1997 program on the video didn't have a big, high, back on it, he was still sitting high up on a stage above everyone, and even up on a dias on the stage, and so it was, for all practical purposes, a 'throne.'

I would imagine programs in Amaroo are even more that way, and I think he chose to give darshan there, hoping it was far enough out in the middle of nowhere that no one outside the die-hard premie community would notice.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 23:45:15 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: Toe Jam and Krishna Crowns...great post nt
Message:
nt here stands for no time! to say any more
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 11:19:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: Experiment with the techniques.
Message:
Hi Charles,

I'm a strong advocate of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I only occasionaly do a technique, usually only if I want to describe the experience in words.

For all those folk who value the techniques, I'd suggest an experiment.

Stop doing them for six months, or a year, and see if it makes any difference.

It did to me. Life's much better when I don't bother with them.

Anth who prefers to experiment with other sorts of techniques at bedtime nowadays.

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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 23:28:07 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: Joy, do you feel that if someone...
Message:
Dear Charles,
I agree with what you say in your post. I have been one of the 'nice' ones here and don't fit that angry ex sterotype. I wasn't in the ashram although I lived in a premie house, read that, was more into it then a fringe premie for a time before becoming a fringe premie. I also want to say, though, that I do think it is important if someone is angry to express it somehow and then hopefully move on.

Here is a quote that a person living here found in the newspaper that hit the nail on the head for me, and has been a big time tenant for my life:
'To behave with dignity is nothing less than to allow others freely to be themselves.' Sol Chaneles

Different strokes ya know.

I think it is probably true that the many new exes can be a big help to others lining up at the exit as you were all in it and know what it is now. Many current premies get stuck in the argument that things had evolved and the problems we long time exes had are no longer valid. Whatever works, as you said to Joy, to help people out or better yet to never get involved.
Personally I still meditate and know it is just a part of being human, never was connected to m. I thank god I learned the techniques from a mahatma and not m because I never held that belief.
Love,
Robyn

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 02:47:27 (GMT)
From: Charles S
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Robyn
Subject: 'To behave with dignity is nothing less than...
Message:
Hi Robyn:

Thanks for the quote:

'To behave with dignity is nothing less than to allow others freely to be themselves.' Sol Chaneles

That sums up how I feel about debating wether people should still meditate using the four Kriyas or not. I understand that they are too tied up with devotion for some people to feel comfortable with. We aren't in a cult now, so I say to each his own, let each person choose for themselves. Different strokes, as you say.

I was suprised to learn that I had been practicing Kriya Yoga all this time, and pleased to learn that a 'Master' was not necessary. That sure explained the promise, 'don't reveal these techniques...'

I don't doubt that other techniques may work better for some, and that no techniques at all are the best for others. Whatever floats your boat, I like to say.

I think my main reason for posting here is to simply leave the door open behind me as I exit. That if some person lurking here can see what I say and relate to it, and it helps them decide to leave and find a better way to be happy, fine. That's all I hope to accomplish. To leave a door open for someone else.

Oh, and just curious, who is/was Sol Chaneles?

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 14:21:14 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: To Charles...and a reply to Anth
Message:
Dear Charles,
Hey Anth, in the intrest of saving posts, the last paragraph is also a reply to a post of yours on continuing or not continuing meditation.
Hi, sorry this took so long, I was taking notes on this thread to post to you and was so sleepy I didn't think I could make a sensable sentence.
First off I don't know who Sol Chaneles was, I'll do a search later today and let you know if I find anything. It is a small town paper so maybe he is a small town resident.
I left long before videos of m were around, thank god. I wrote more on that in my response to Aussie Ji above. I just don't understand how people could relate to them at all!
I can not believe m could say, 'I don't know who you are, I don't know you name and I don't Want to.'!!!! It is beyond my comprehension how he could say that and not jolt a few thousand premies out of their seats and out the door!!! What a blatant con man he is.
My favorite line from your posts in this thread was: 'Checkbook love.' :) That is a classic term. :)
I can't remember why I made this note, I think because I lived in a premie house in NJ near NYC and we were pretty focused, not fanatical about practicing k but we still partied (did drugs, maybe not in the house itself), had sex in the house, gave massages and for the most part enjoyed living as a group.
Also liked your term brownies plus. :) I have been a long time baker of such treats and have heard them also called Alice B. Tokeless Brownies. At another and MUCH more laid back premie house I lived in not far from where I am now, a farm out in rural Pennsylvania, I made granola cookies plus every day, a pile of them, for weeks and weeks and oy vey! what meditations I had then! :)
I made some zucchini bread plus as my 'pot luck' offering for a summer party some years ago and was directed to put it in a discrete location so it wouldn't get into the mouths and heads of the unwitting. The next year at the same party, a yearly event, maybe people who do not partake in such delicasses(sp) came up to me and told me that they somehow found and ate the bread but thank god all who did still had a lovely time and enjoyed the experience. I must say I make some intense 'plus' recipes. :)
All that said, I too continue to meditate. Over the years I have done it or not for blocks of time but find the word and the light techniques done my way, with light, 'look m no hands' :), and never felt my experience came from m. Which of course it doesn't or we'd just be experiencing rotting veggies!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 12:37:30 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I'm with you and charles on this one
Message:
Hi robyn,
yep this is me too.luckily I only went into premie households and a duo house,so no real pain.
Aussi Ji
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 04:35:26 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn, you say, ''Different strokes...''
Message:
I say,''Amen, whatever cranks your engine.''

I have quoted Ham at length on the topic of meditation before and am about to do so again. The reason that I quote him is because we both approach it from an atheistical point of view eventhough he is a trainspotter/raver and I'm an old-fogey
/armchair-yogi.

Buried in a thread which will be sucked into oblivion soon, Ham said meditation is all about awareness. And that is the only thing that I practice - alertness, clarity, consciousness whatever you want to call being wide awake.

The techniques are completely unimportant and may even be harmful for some people, as Joy has pointed out, because of the psychological connections to the Ratguru.

Charles and I have been together for 19 years but we don't agree on too much except that the mortgage has to be paid on time. I am an atheist and he is not. I am more angry at the Ratguru than he is because I was in it longer and was exposed to the bhakti juju more than he was. He kissed the Locust Feet only twice. I did it 20 times.

The other thing that we agree on is that we intend to live our lives with the greatest amount of enjoyment as possible before we die. I don't know what he looks to get out of meditation. It's his private business. I meditate in order to concentrate.

Concentration. If my mind is scattered and out of control I function less efficiently. I use the word concentration in two ways: one is to focus the other is to ''reduce'' as a chef ''reduces'' stock to make a thick concentrated sauce. All the flavor is concentrated in a smaller volume. When the mind is thus concentrated it operates more efficiently and does not obscure what there is to be seen and enjoyed.

Anth pointed out that Jesus and Buddha were historical beings but that the legends and mythology surrounding them had obscured their historical accuracy. So I mention these two episodes keeping that in mind.

Jesus probably didn't go into solitude in the desert for 40 days to practice kriya yoga. Buddha didn't practice kriya yoga under the bodhi tree for 40 days. All they did was get away from the noise and distractions for a while.

The techniques are just a way to get away from external distractions. What is important is what you do when you get away from it all which is why some people got something out of K and others did not.

Ramana Maharshi did not practice kriya. He, like Socrates, asked himself the question: ''Who am I?'' He seems to have found a satisfactory answer.

Zazen buddhists concentrate on koans. Others use a mantra. Some gaze at their navels or stare at crystals. Tantric sex also works wonderfully. Crowley used sadistic sex magic to awaken his poor masochistic devotees. Shivite saddhus use ganga. American aboriginal shamans used peyote. Mrs Robertson used martinis. The list is endless.

What distiguishes humans from animals is free will. We can use that will power any way we wish. The Ratguru teaches his poor suckers to merge their wills into his - ''synchronize.'' I use meditation to increase my will power and strengthen my determination. What I do with that determination is my business.

It is so refreshing that exes usually disagree with each other. I would worry if we all started agreeing.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:20:27 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: What distinguishes humans from other animals?
Message:
A couple of words spring to mind: dignity and accountability,
the other animals that is.

Will power? what makes you say other animals don't have will power?
Lesley, the primate.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:59:53 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Lesley - humans from other animals?
Message:
As soon as I posted that I thought to myself ''But maybe animals do have will-power.'' That's why I usually don't think about metaphysical things or things to do with consciousness. It really is an unquantifiable subjective thing.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:20:54 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: I used to think about this stuff before K
Message:
and now I am again! It is fascinating, can a plant feel? Obviously, when a dog pees on a tree, the tree doesn't pass it some dunny paper, but when you look at the plants drinking up the rain after a long hot dry spell you could swear there is a hallelujah chorus going up, ahhhhhh.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:40:02 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: So, Patrick, Do You Think............(ns?)
Message:
Do you think if I go out to Palm Springs for 40 days to get away from it all, it'll do me good? Jesus

What if I go to Palm Springs and sit under a Joshua tree? Double good? Jesus + Buddha

I think this might be the ticket (and kudos to you for giving the key to salvation): I go out to Palm Springs, I sit under a Joshua tree, and I drink martinis? That's my kind of enlightenment. Jesus + Buddha + Mrs. Robinson = samadhi big time

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:43:28 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: So, Monmot
Message:
It sounds like you and me could do a little samadhi-ing together.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:17:51 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: CharlesS / Patrick Conlon
Subject: I Knew You Guys Weren't Going to
Message:
... let me get away with this one unchallenged!

I think I have a hard time with the idea that the whole involvement with M and Elan Vital (or Divine Light Mission for us older ones) was about meditation, when for me, and so many others at the time, it was about devotion (or bhakti ju-ju as you call it). In my experience the meditation thing was a sort of hook or lure to get you into being devoted to M, something for the rational mind to relate to and use as a decoy to get you interested in him.

Keeping in touch as he says now, isn't about inspiring you, in my opinion, it's about sucking your money away from you and insinuating you further into the personality cult.

Perhaps because of my personality, or because of the time I got involved (1972, a very devotional period), I never had much of an experience with meditation, it never meant that much to me. I have a pretty active mind, and really quite enjoy it, actually, and trying to suppress it or get beyond it was a real stress for me. I can count on one hand the really good meditation experiences I had (but I had countless incredible bliss-outs on the devotional level, seeing M in person and at satsang). So I have a hard time understanding how people could be involved with this just for the meditation alone. Maybe it's just a difference of personality, but I found the techniques so ineffectual that I just cannot comprehend the great experience people say they're having from meditation (and I have a number of current premie friends who claim this) since a) I never had it; and b) when I was involved the 'experience' was totally, 100% tied in with devotion to Maharaji.

Chuck/Patrick, I really have no problem with people meditating (or having any other type of religious experience), I'm pretty open minded about letting other people have their experience and I have mine and maybe the twain shall never meet. That's okay with me. I just wonder how people can still have 'that experience' as Maharaji calls it, without somehow, even subtly and unconsciously, tying it in to devotion to him. Which I DO have a problem with.

I think if you've been involved and doing it for 20 years, and are a very recent ex, it may just be a force of habit at this point? (Just hypothesizing). It is a difficult thing to break out of these entrenched patterns that guru sets up for us (maybe because we feel guilty we won't get enlightened?) Is it possible to try taking a break from it and see if you're just as calm and clear thinking without it? This is JUST A SUGGESTION, not my hard and fast advice for everyone. If people are comfortable doing it, well, fine, but for me, I had to throw the baby with the bathwater (and it never really was much of a baby, more like a plastic inflatable doll which had gone flat).

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:53:48 (GMT)
From: Charles S
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Joy
Subject: Joy, meditation vs devotion
Message:
Joy:

Reading about the experiences of the people who were ashram premies in the 70's, really is an eye opening. I can imagine, all these young people. The revolution of the 60s has been co-opted, people were getting lost in drugs, and conventional christianity had failed for young people. This young boy-guru appears from the east, bringing his eastern wisdom to the west. Little did anyone realize how much western religion had been blended with this gurus' suposedly hindu ways, or how much the christian concept of Messiah would be amplified even further when this boy brought Radhasoami concepts in to western, predominately christian countries.

I won't go on about all that. Sounds like Chris Lane has written a book about it anyway 'Radhasoami Reality'. What I mean is, you early premies really got hit hard with the full Radhasoami Whammy. I liked Brian Too's post (now Brian Smith) where he described how colorful, aluring and personal it was. Because it WAS so personal, he also said he believed the 'hooks went in deeper' for those earlier premies. The more I read about the experiences of people then, the more I tend to believe that is true. Especially for people who got really involved, and lived in ashrams for long periods of time. For people like me who didn't get deeply involved, and stayed mostly on the fringes, it's very enlightening to hear about all this, all the details.

The way you and I see the meditation no doubt has a lot to do with the way we came to it. Your whole description of how you look back and see it as a lure, and the whole devotional bhakti thing that was happening at that time, is so very different than my experiance. You mentioned having countless 'incredible bliss-outs on the devotional level, seeing M. in person and in satsang.' I never spend ANY time with M., unless having his security guards bounce my face off his slimy socks in a darshan line a couple of times counts as 'quality time'. He was a speck on a stage, or a face on a screen. I didn't have those emotional bonds with him, which really I think were very powerful.

I also was on the fringes, so what was revealed to me was a much more suble approach. No doubt if I had gotten more involved I would have seen more. But Patrick and I were begining a relationship at the time. In 1980, no one had any respect for gay realationships. We viewed all heterosexual groups with suspicion, and gay groups as well. NO ONE encouraged us to stay together (not even Doug, our mutual friend). So we didn't lean on other people for support. We withdrew from the organization, attended events occasionally, usually mixed up with our vacations, and enjoyed each other and the meditation. And later on, the occassional video.

For me, the focus was primarily on the meditation. M. was not accessable to people like me, and the meditation was all I had. You had all that devotional stuff. As you said, the 'experience for you was 100% tied up with devotion for M. The meditation was all I had, most of the time. ALL I had. It's not like M. was ever there to help me. He even said once in a satsang 'Don't expect me to tend your orchards for you'. In his customary contradictory fashion, he made it seem like I should be relying on him somehow, but also made it clear that he wasn't going to slove my problems. I had to take care of myself. I was on my own. I assumed the only thing he could offer me was inspiration, and the occassional odd tip about practicing, the few times he has ever bothered to talk about that. ( In case anyone here is wondering what I mean by inspiration, just ask yourself , what in M's satsang used to hook YOU?)

I won't tell you my life story, but over the past 20 years, I've had some pretty dark times. And in the darkest of those times, often all I had were those techniques. And they did help me, they gave me strength, helped me focus my awareness on just being alive. I like thinking too, Joy, but sometimes I just like to rest my mind, take a break from having nothing BUT my thoughts. To just observe, instead of judge. The kriyas didn't solve all my problems, but they calmed my fears and helped me, in ways I doubt I could explain. Nor do I feel compelled to explain, or try to make anyone understand or agree with me. It's enough for me that it helps. I've always felt, 'whatever works', and I'll accept help when it's extended to me. But if there are any slimy strings attached, I'll definitly let those go.

When the slimy strings became too obvious to ignore, and it came time to let the guru go, I quickly realized I had been pretty much doing it on my own anyway, it was always my own effort. I got a few good pointers from M. over the years, but have since seen, reading about meditation and teachers and gurus from many sources, that his tips were not original or unique. It's not as if he actually comes to me, and meditates for me. In fact, he wouldn't even know if I lived or died. He doesn't know who I am, he dosen't know my name, and he doesn't WANT to know. I remembered that the first time I sat down to meditate after making the 'break'. I'm glad he said that once, because it made it easier.

What little emotional bhakti was done on me never went too deep (I always knew I was a BAD premie, not experiancing those devotional bliss-outs), and that is probably why we see the kriyas so differently. It's interesting how you described them as a 'lure'. I had always assumed they were more than that. But in recent years, M. has put a lot more emphasis on himself and less on the techniques, reducing them in fact to 'auto knowledge' (I find that whole concept so crass). But it is his emphasis on himself, and his starting to call himself the 'Master', that really started to make me uncomfortable, and question things. One of the 'testimonials' on ELK even said, 'the Master is greater than the gift, because without the Master, there is NO gift'. I thought, ''HUH? How can the giver be MORE important than the gift? Without the gift, there IS NO giver. And what is this gift crap anyway? When I recieved Knowledge, I was told it was somthing every human being had inside them, and that M. simply showed one how to see it.'' The revision in M's historical presentation of himself and his propagation is astounding, and unsettling.

Anyway, reading about the Rahdasoami's really cleared up a lot for me, it explained so much. Do you ever read about Chris Lanes experiments, that he did on his Catholic High School and College students? He revealed to them the Kriya's, without any preparation or pre-conditioning, then asked them to describe to him what they experienced. I really got a kick out of that. Anyhow, regarding your comment about the kriyas as a lure to get people interested in being devoteed to him. It certainly seems like it. That's why I've said it isn't his 'knowlege', and why he wants the techniques kept secret. He was lax on the devotional stuff for a while (at least to us 'fringe' premies) but I wonder if this Radhasoami thing in the west isn't comming full circle now. Many of the old ways are comming back in force. But this extreamly impersonal, devotional stuff is so weird. It's like the Radhasoamis meet Amway. A uniquely American phenomena, like televangelism?

Have I ever tried not meditating? There have been days when I couldn't and whole long years, when I worked night shift, where I was so tired it didn't seem to make much difference, though I often felt the EFFORT to be focused helped me anyway. I do it now, because I like it. And without an 'imaginary friend' to try to relate it to, it's better than ever. Should I stop now? Joy, I know you really don't understand how anyone could like it, because you make it sound like a Disease I should be trying to get rid of! It's more than just a habit. I've spend a lot more time with the meditation than I ever spent with M. and I trust it more than I could ever trust M. Because I trust myself. For me, it's not about devotion to him.

We are all different, and there are no one-size-fits all solutions. I respect that your experiance was very different from mine. It's facinating really, the entire spectrum of premie experience. Perhaps part of the reason halls and public events seem to be going to videos and broadcasts only. He would rather that we not compare notes, or run into recent exes. I liked the quote Robyn made in a post on this thread: ''To behave with dignity is nothing less than to allow others freely to be themselves.'' Too bad that M. didn't teach that. He would apparently rather have us be syncronized.

Hope we'll see you at Latvian night.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:44:54 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Meditation....
Message:
Hi Joy,

I haven't forgotten to respond to your email and will get to it soon.

When I was an aspirant in 1975, it was clearly set forth that receiving the meditation (K) was the only way to connect directly to Maharaji. During that time and through the years M has stated that as (his) fact.

Therefore, because I was so brainwashed, to the point of devotion and worship, it's very difficult for me to distinguish or separate meditation and Maharaji (which isn't even called that by M anymore, it's ''practice''). That's how it's been for me.

I've never searched for alternative meditations. I must say that I did have very powerful experiences in meditation, but during those times, the most devotional periods of the cult, I always considered it M's doing (I must qualify that by saying I disbelief the connection now).

That was a major catch in the cult and really still is. Reading some of his speeches from the newsletter prove this to me. He is getting less subtle about how important the master is. One of the aspirant selection processes (at least in 1999) is for the instructor to be sure that anyone selected understands the connection between master and knowledge.

That said, I haven't practiced the techniques since I stopped worshipping M. There is a strong association there, at least now and I must avoid it. I used to pray to M during meditation, because during the heavy late 70s devotional period, Maharaji himself, told us to pray to him for help. Those altars, pix on every wall space (those eyes we used to say followed us across the room) didn't help one bit when deprogramming onself.

I'm not writing this to agree or disagree with anyone who derives benefit from using the K techniques. It's very different from one person to the other based on their situation when in the cult. I felt so much guilt when I was following the Rat if I didn't meditate; I now feel much freer and happier, without that guilt-chain around my neck.

It's different for everyone. IMO, it's not a matter of judgment, but acceptance of our differences. I do have to admit though, when I am nervous or scatter-brained, I do find myself sticking my tongue back, even though I could never, ever get it all the back as instructed! I noticed that newborns do that a lot. It probably comforts them, too. But not because of Maharaji!

Hope you are well,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:35:58 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: One thing I must conceded to my dear friend Joy
Message:
... and several others who have posted on the forum.

Joy:

I also didn't want to let it go unacknowledged that you are right -- it is an incredible burden to feel that one has to pratice formal sit-down meditation in order to be OK. The problem with habits, even some beneficial ones, is that the pressure to be consistent on a daily basis will kill us! In the case of K, it was pretty much sold to us that there was very little else in life worth doing. Basically, made to feel like we'd suffer some horrible mental anguish and were on the road to hell if we didn't heel. If was far from healing. (I'll stop now.)

I could almost feel a clock ticking when I was 'wasting time' on 'worldly' things. The dogma of Buddhism can also do this to some extent (just check out the 4 thoughts that turn the mind, although there is a lot of good inspiration there as well), and I have been ridding myself of the obligation to meditate that had subtly crept in until it was not so subtle anymore.

Other posters have said that moment-to-moment consciousness, being present and mindful, is the most important thing. To the extent that sitting practice helps us to be aware and awake human beings, and to treat other sentient being in a kinder more interconnected way, that is great. To the extent that it is a ball and chain, it sucks.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:52:58 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: One thing I must conceded to my dear friend Fran
Message:
This last paragraph is my point exactly. Did it make us more aware and compassionate and connected human beings? I have letters I wrote to my mother from my super devotional ashram phase and they are embarassing in the extreme. Bragging that the Lord of the Universe was back on the planet, basically laying my trip on her, big time. I think those in the cult, myself included, became self-obsessed neurotic navel-gazers who thought we had the answer to everything (the Lard and his Knowledge) and tried to lay it on everyone we could. In no way was I compassionate or interested in anybody else for any other reason than to try and convince them to accept this trip. So in that respect, meditation was a dismal failure for me.

Hate to say it, but my Buddhist meditation experiences didn't produce a much different a result either, except maybe I wasn't as propagation oriented. I still do not feel that any of my meditation experiences produced any compassion or understanding in me whatsoever (and I put in five years solidly with Buddhism, as well, in the 90s). Not to say, of course, that it may be different for others, but for me, meditation was a total, self-absorbed waste of time. I got more inspiration and understanding out of Buddhist theory than practice, in reality. I'm just trying to evaluate it as honestly as possible here. And like I said, this is for myself only, if others get benefit from meditating (either on K or whatever) or practicing Buddhism, I really have no problems with that. Just MY experience with both of those types of meditation wasn't so great.

Chuck, I appreciate your long and heartfelt post above, and will respond a little later, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by all this at the moment. Please see my e-mail to Patrick re Latvian night.

Love,
Joy

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 06:42:52 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: And yet one more thing before this thread goes ...
Message:
blip! off the active screen.

At one time meditation was tied to M. But even then that went only so far. Far enough though, that as I said somewhere else in another thread, when I decided i wasn't 'following' Bal Bhagwan Ji or Bhole Ji, I actually psyched myself into thinking I couldn't meditate without M's grace, and went back (in 1976).

When you and I lived in Galewood ashram, and I burned out and was seriously ill for several months (forget whether you were 'in' or 'out' at this point), it was because I had reached the end of my rope. Burned out physically and mentally, starting to doubt that M was the Lard, I was also not caring whether I lived or died much of the time (although I wasn't advertising that fact). Sometime during all this turmoil, the body gave out and I got ill. Diane Van Anda (Feldekreis therapy) and Margaret Lafferty (nutritional advice and a lot of support) helped me, along with a lot of other kind folks.

I remember at some point early in the saga I wrote a letter to M and received back a 'satsang' letter from a premie with a nice picture of M cradling one of his babies. Obviously the letter didn't get to M, and no one thought my little drama was anything to bother M with, regardless of the fact that I'd 'surrendered my life' and put myself in 'his shelter.' I don't remember the timing, but it was clear to me that there was no 'god' that was going to save me -- M or anybody else. I remember sitting up in that bedroom at Galewood crying out in my heart to something to come and save me, doing the little 'I am a useless turd please help me' thing, and something in my core didn't buy that sh*t and said 'remember holy name or die.'

That was the answer. That there was no answer. Holy name is just using my breath to stay conscious, awake and in the moment. This is no big mystery. I think it was at that point, though it took a long time rolling out over the years, that meditation and M became separated.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 05:28:49 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Joy, like I said to Francesca
Message:
We are so different in the way we look at things and what we like (she likes baseball and I would rather watch paint peel) but what we admire and like in each other is that we march to the sound of our own drummers as you do.

As I said to Robyn, ''Thank god exes don't agree.'' (Except on one thing and that the Ratguru is a fraud.) It would indeed be be creepy if we presumed to make all exes think alike.

I hope you are at least considering coming down to SF for Latvian night. Come on. I've got a magnum of Veuve Clicquot.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 06:49:48 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joy, Pat, Chuck
Subject: Like I said to Tim, below
Message:
This fits somewhat into this discussion of meditation, but kind of 'got lost in the sauce' down below. Of course I do mean discussion. I agree whole heartedly in trying to communicate and share and not necessarily try to convince each other of our views:

Subject: I don't quite get ...
Message: what you are trying to say here.
It seems as if you are insinuating that anyone who meditates is selfish and possibly dull. I'm not sure if you are trying to take a jab at those who do meditate, or just get a little dialogue going. If you don't enjoy meditation, that's fine too, but I take exception to your comments though I agree in part with some of them. I also don't understand what you mean by some of it.

No one is perfect. By insinuating that meditating to better oneself is selfish, and thus there is no way out of the ego trap through meditation just seems plain wrong. The neuro science tests spoken of in the recent issue of Newsweek, referred to in a post below, indicate that meditation and prayer in many traditions has the effect of blurring the line where the self ends and the rest of the world begins. Ego is a sense of separation of self and other at its height. Thus it seems that meditation and prayer have the effect of at least softening the grip of ego, softening the hard line between self and others, and creating a sense of oneness.

I don't know how long they keep them online.

In my humble opinion, is the endless stream of thoughts that constantly defines self and other, and thus solidifies it in our consciousnesses. If we can slow down that stream of thoughts just a little, or loosen our fixation on them, perhaps there is a chance for another view.

Now the Tibetan masters would agree with you that there is a way to meditate yourself into dullness. This occurs when a person believes that the point of meditation is to stop all thoughts. Thought may stop in meditation, but I've been told by many types of meditation teachers that stopping thought is not the goal, nor does it matter if thought stops. It is our clinging to thought and our fixation on it that can be problematic. In fact, suppressing thought and seeking to stop the natural creative nature of the mind can have the effect of a sort of dullness or torpor. That is because meditation masters say that there is a natural intelligence, uninpededness, spaciousness and luminosity to the nature of the mind, and dullness of course, is the opposite of that.

I agree that self-centered goals, such as calming one's own mind, 'escaping' a problem (which is impossible, I feel), in an of themselves, are not a good motivation for meditation. However, that may be, at the moment, all that one has. One has to start honestly from whatever point one find themselves. If I am a calmer person, believe me, it is better for those I have to deal with. I can be harsh, arrogant and judgmental. Also impatient. Not a great joy for anyone to be subjected to. To say that one must have nigh perfect motivation or it is hopeless seems like the very crap we were told by M himself. We were never pure enough for him, our motives were never good enough for him, so that he could make us feel that it was hopeless to meditate unless we groveled at his feet for some sort of magic blessing. I do agree that compassion and caring for others is not stressed in M's religion, and possibly not in bhakti yoga either, but I don't know enough about it to say. Caring for anyone outside yourself would seem diametrically opposed to the bhakti idea that the whole universe is just you and your guru.

And as far as dull, two of the people who meditate that populate this forum, Pat Conlon and Aussie Ji, seem anything but dull to me.

The part where I don't understand what you mean is this:

'So maybe it is more a matter of really facing the fact of ourselves and others.'

On the relative level this is indeed a fact. On the absolute level all is one. I don't know if I've gotten to the all is one very often if at all, but I have certainly had the edges blurred enough for me, to see that self and other, from one view, is an illusion.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 13:31:15 (GMT)
From: Jean-Paul
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: To Bella Fransesca
Message:
Very goost. Me like your words of wisdom. I ran away from french forum because nothing is going on there and now I start getting stuck here. Does anybody know a way how to get free from the drug addict to the forum ?
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:14:17 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Jean-Paul
Subject: Vive la liberation, Jean-Paul
Message:
Tu veux te liberer de l'addiction al Forum?

Pour moi il s'agit de ne rien lire si je n'aime pas le sentiment dans mon corps quand je le lis. Il y a des discusions qui sont abusives (si c'est un mot francais) et pas gentilles. Aussi des conversations tres interessantes comme celle-ci.

Vive la discrimination.

Love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 09:30:57 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Francesca, oops but thanks too
Message:
I knew you could throw a fast ball. I admire you will-power. The bad side to will is the Aleister Crowley thing (Let the whole of the law be: ''Do what thou wilt.'') That is ego taken too the extreme. Thank the muses that god is a democracy and we're all sitting on the steering committee about to be called to order.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 06:56:26 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Sorry for the bad html -- but the link works n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 21:33:39 (GMT)
From: gee
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: getting up to speed
Message:
Just seen this site recently and would like some more facts on stuff mentioned about experiences with EV
Thanx
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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 22:26:00 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: gee
Subject: getting up to speed
Message:
Welcome Gee,

Read the site nuts and bolts, DLM/EV papers, Journeys, and best of the forum, and then come back and say hello to all of us:-)

John.

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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 19:52:50 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Eye of the Beholder
Message:
Maharaji - That reminds me of a story I used to tell...Why did the chicken cross the road?

Jim - because he’s a fucking asshole, eh?

Joy - He’s lying again! I was around ‘til ‘81 and there were never, ever any poultry-based stories.

Michael Dettmers - Here’s something you probably never knew - the chicken never made it across the road. She was forcibly intoxicated by Maharaji and then, in wanton disregard of society’s norms, mores and standards, sexually exploited and repeatedly run over by a forklift. I’d say more but my confidentiality agreement forbids me to do so. However, we might revisit this shocking, unethical chicken incident at a later date.

kap - 2 flying dlm mahatmas with yellow eyes and antlers took me by force to colonel sanders and stuffed extra-crispy chicken wings down my throat to kill me because i yelled at that asshole bruce at the ashram and they made me go into a field and suffer for my disloyalty and gave me a chicken bone and told me to hit myself over the head with it til i was dead but i screamed at them and they let me go but they said i’d be dead if i ever ate another chicken or watched reruns of barney fife.

suchabanana - You’re the fucking chicken, Jim!

Stonor - He’s got you there, Jimmy boy! I’d discuss why but I haven’t got the time, even though I spend 57 hours a week here.

Kelly - That’s not what he said! That fat, ugly moron. He’s so ugly. Where’s the part about Krishna? I heard it and it was ugly! Fat, moronic and ugly! Mirror, yeah right.

Patrick/Thelma/Fat Fag/Melanie/Tiberius - Don’t get your panties in a bunch, dear heart, it’s just more of that Church Lady bhakti, kriya ju-ju.

Runamok - Who’re you calling a ju-ju?

Marianne - I’m VERY interested in this chicken AND in kap’s story. Contact me off-line as I don’t want the EV spies to know my strategy. What a surprise Tratwal has waiting for him!

AJW - That chicken crossed the road to taste snot and see test patterns. The dying cult is crumbling and I’m so glad I was smart enough and witty enough to get out. They’re all panicking and those statistics about people retrieving mucous are all bollocks. It’s not 37,000 new phlegmies, it’s actually 9 people counted 4,111 times.
Anth the laughing and sneezing while Oxnard burns

gErRy - ‘cause Goober was so fat and stupid.

ex-lax - This story was plagiarized from Huminahumina Buddhism...or Frank Perdue.

bill - Buddha was fat and really stupid, if you follow carefully what he was saying. I’ve collected and saved some of the DNA of that chicken and its parents were definitely Rawat and Claudia.

Michael Dettmers - Excellent report, Bill.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:36:31 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: great post.
Message:
you are bloody funny.

rofl

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:45:39 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: what am I?--chopped liver??? i dont count?
Message:
buck buck buckbuckbuckbuck!!!
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:07:59 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Why did the chicken cross the road?
Message:
Why did the chicken cross the road Danny?

It was agya.

Someone told it that the Infinite Fowl that laid the universe in a cosmic egg, had incarnated in the body of a Rode Island Red and was giving the secret of eternal clucking peace for free.

The chicked wanted to surrender its life to Perfect Clucker and attain perfection. The trouble was, the Rode Island Red, perfect clucker, turned out to be a greedy fat bastard ruled by his cock who knew nothing about perfection and was into feathering his own nest.

Mind the cars Danny. It would be awful if you got run over before you were fully surrendered.

Anth the Egghead.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:16:04 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, you're a breath of fresh air
Message:
after getting my nostrils full of Salam's camel shit.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:10:22 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: The Eye of the Beholder: Danny's response..
Message:
M- that reminds me of the story I used to tell: why did the chicken cross the road?

DANNY: (Even though I know it was to get to the other side, I think I'll brown-nose my guru and do a little ass-kissing and say something like):

Oh, pranam, maharaji,I don't really know why that chicken crossed the road, but I do know that since you created the chicken, and the road, and me,and the stupid joke, that I just don't need to think too much about it.Whatever you say, I will believe...and mindlessly laugh at too, just because you said it!I'm just feeling so much gratitude because by your grace I am allowed to practice,and even though I don't experience anything, you allow me to be synchronized with your most divine work of propagating this most holy knowledge with your propagation package from your delapidated shack in the low rent zone of malibu. Can I throw some of the propagation packages out the door of the GV jet to the aspirants in India, after we propagate in the florida keys on the yacht?And that, of course, after we propagate to all the watch collectors and classic car collectors in the world, because as we all know, you only have those 'worldly' things to make yourself relatable to those 'people in the world'.

OK, not perfect,but that might be something you might like to say, right Danny?

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:16:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Good one, LAX !
Message:
Hopefully, Danny can keep the 'spirit' like he's wanted us to do. Just a little fun. No harm intended.
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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 22:31:51 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Danny
Subject: Would have been a Drek *BEST*, but...
Message:
you didn't mention my name! Sheesh!

Anyway, to find out why the chicken was so desperately trying to cross the road go here!

P.S. Danny are you really Bob?

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 21:36:00 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Would have been a Drek *BEST*, but...
Message:
Yes, Roger. Bob and I are one.

No wonder I had to let these pants out.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:29:28 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Hillarious Danny Definately Best Of
Message:
..... but you forgot me.

C.G.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 11:32:11 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: That's really funny Roger (nt)
Message:
LOL
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:27:07 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: AJW
Subject: I think that Danny == Bob (nt)
Message:
lk;j
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:30:41 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I asked bob
Message:
What a surprise this is all I got from

http://www.resort.com/~banshee/Misc/8ball/

Querying the Xists and JVH1, 'Bob' has pondered the question:
is Danny rob?

I think Bob is out to lunch. I'm 'loosing' my religion!

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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 20:47:21 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Danny
Subject: Eye witness
Message:
Danny

Your post reminds me of another chicken story (unfortunately this story is no joke)

Questions:

1. Why did the chicken get drunk night after night for years on end while simultaneously claiming that his knowledge was the answer to all of our questions?

2. Why did the chicken accept awards from mayors and senators for his contribution to the war on drugs, while he was simultaneously smoking dope night after night in the confines of his residence?

3. Why did the chicken drive when he was drunk, with his little chickadees in the car no less?

4. Why did the chicken run after he hit and killed a cyclist who unfortunately happened to cross in front of his automobile?

5. Why does the chicken sexually exploit his devoted hens?

6. Why does the chicken tolerate the sexual abuse of many chickadees by one of his agents?

Answer to all of the above:

Because the chicken is a coward, a liar and a hypocrite.

Michael

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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 23:57:05 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Excellent report Michael:)............nt
Message:
sdfh
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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 21:08:32 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Michael don't mince your words
Message:
Why don't you just say what you mean? All this pussy-footing isn't getting us anywhere!

Thanks for everything you're doing:-)

John.

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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 20:40:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Not bad ... but you forgot a few
Message:
Sandy -- Yes, I admit, I never knew about the chicken crossing the road until I read some of the disturbing things I have here. Michael Dettmers' story, I have to say, got me thinking about all those little eggs, the eggs in me, the eggs in you, that the chicken, like past chickens before him, has always talked about. My heart goes out to everyone whether or not they read my posts. This is all really traumatic to me and I wouldn't want anyone to forget that for a moment. But what if the chicken someday came up and plastered me with a kiss -- got me with its pecker, I guess you could say -- and made the world melt away, all of it, no roads, no chickens, no conflict, just a lot of love and me talking?

Katie -- Welcome whoever you are! Now that we're friends I want to say that while I personally don't care about the chicken or why he ever crossed anything, I care an awful lot about you! Take care, huh?

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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 20:46:48 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not bad ... but you forgot a few
Message:
JHB - The chicken is welcome at our next Latvian club meeting in March.
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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 21:05:34 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: JHB and Jim
Subject: That's the spirit, JHB and Jim nt
Message:
ooga booga
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:40:06 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: None of this is funny at all
Message:
But please contact me off line so we can discuss strategy.

Marianne

PS I've obtained a secret CIA clone scrambler for all of our most sensitive discussions.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:26:05 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: None of this is funny at all
Message:
Marianne:

I've obtained a secret CIA clone scrambler for all of our most sensitive discussions.

This is by way of dealing with eggs no doubt?

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:52:00 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: but which came first?
Message:
Was it the egg?

Was it the chicken?

.
.
.

Surely all evidence points at the rooster?

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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 22:36:59 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: That's very funny Danny,
Message:
I really had a good laugh. But I only said ugly once and I never ever said fat and I never would. I said he's going thin on top of his head which perfectly matches what's going on inside. In fact the whole thing is wearing a bit thin isn't it?

Tell me, have you enjoyed his last few talks? I'm really interested to know whether any intelligent person could extract anything of value out of them. I don't understand how anyone can listen to the simplistic rubbish that spills forth and feel anything but sick. Ok just tell me, were you inspired? I really am interested.

All the best,
Kelly

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 08:12:54 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: That's very funny Danny,
Message:
Hi Kelly,

I'm glad you had a good laugh.

'Ok just tell me, were you inspired? I really am interested.'
Yes, I was definitely inspired. Go figure!? And it may shock you but several old friends of mine who hadn't seen Maharaji in many years came (unbeknownst to me) and thought he was wonderful. It goes to show that perhaps things aren't quite as black and white as we think/wish them to be sometimes.

Best to you, too
Danny

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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 21:32:10 (GMT)
From: la-ex-ex-lax
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Danny,you know us so well,it's like family...
Message:
Danny-

I can see by your attempt at humor that a couple of things are quite obvious:

1-you certainly keep up with things at EPO, and know a little bit about some of us as well. It's nice to know that you are thinking about us, even if it is in a somewhat negative light...

2-it doesn't appear that you are one of the 'certified EV watchers', because they are under strict orders to observe only, and not to identify themselves...that means you come here out of your own free will...

3-you can't reply in any intelligent way to these allegations about m. You may be able to hide your own head in the sand, but what is it that you tell the new people?
They won't hide in the sand, and actually are quite disturbed by things like this.They feel a need to know before they dive in, like you did.
What do you tell them, or do you tell them to ignore it?
Would that be ethical?

4-this leads me to believe tht you are now firmly and successfully planted in stage one of Cult Exit.

It may take a few months or years, but talk to a few other p's who came in here talking big, and are now quite happy as ex-p's.
They didn't see it happen either, but it's quite obvious that much of this stuff is now imbedded beneath your skin, and it's only a matter of time before your conscience rears it's ugly head, your cult-rap becomes apparent to you, and you become one of us, a free man.

Welcome to freedom, Danny!

PS: Isn't nice that we can communicate like this on the EPO site?
It's kind of hard to do this on the m sites, and I have to wonder what he is afraid of....

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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 22:37:47 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everybody
Subject: Glad to see you guys having some fun....
Message:
It's a thread like this that make me come back again and again.

I've been here sporatically, because my monitor died. I got a cheap monitor at (thankfully) the State of Vermont Surplus Warehouse, where stuff is sent when various departments of the state are upgrading....got a $35 HP monitor, which, while not perfect, will suit me just fine until I figure out what I want to buy....

Danny, your ''personality'':))) descriptions were great! And Michael, as usual, I loved your post. Be well everyone!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:59:39 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Danny, you're a chicken who's needs to cross road
Message:
Your post was beautiful. I haven't had a laugh like that in ages. You're too fucking smart to be on THAT side of the road. Come on over here and have some more fun with us.

BTW I would never say anything as panty-waisted as ''don't get your panties in a bunch.''

I'm a bona fide self-made women and would rather say: ''Come on over and a cop a feel of my brand new silicone tits. They cost me an arm and a leg but who needs arms and legs.''

PS I haven't had the big snip yet and you're welcome to suck my cock to wean yourself from your Master's titties.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 08:18:12 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Danny, you're a chicken, etc.
Message:
Thelma, I bow deeply.

As to your first offer, sure I'd love a feel of your oh-so-expensive silicone protrusions. I'll have to respectfully decline your last two offers, generous though they are.

Danny

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:03:16 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Danny, spoken like a true gentleman
Message:
Come and have some more fun with us. Your sense of humor is most welcome.
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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 17:49:57 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey Mike Finch, get yer wallet out
Message:
Well you registered elanvital.tv, but now you better go get elanvital.cc/.ws/.fm and elan-vital.cc/.ws/.tv/.fm before I do. I'll race ya!!

That's only about $400.

The Lord will love you for it.

PS, how about a nice post from you?

Don't be such a lurker:)

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:08:11 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Hey Mike Finch, get yer wallet out
Message:
Hi Bazza

Disculta says 'Bazza' is your real nickname. Sorry for doubting this in my previous posting.

Anyway, someone has informed me privately who you are !

To lurk, or not to lurk, that is the question...

-- Mike

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 03:48:51 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Howdy Mr Finch
Message:
Hey its no secret who I am - Barry Shaw from Manchester. You probably don't remember me, but you were (are?) a bit of a celeb.

How's tricks? Are you 'in' or 'out'? Oh maybe I should read your other posts first.

So do you think we can make some dosh selling these domain names to the cult? What do you think is a good asking price?

Nice to finally see you step out of the shadows.

bazza

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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 18:31:16 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: \
To: Bazza
Subject: Hey Mike Finch, get yer wallet out
Message:
Could that be the same geezer who used to give 'intellectual satsang' at the Dulwich [well named] Palace of Peace? Surely such a great intellect couldn't be still sticking to the Rawat Pack. Or could he?
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 13:47:14 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Intellectual Satsang
Message:
Blimey Tim, I didn't know anyone round here remembered 'Intellectual Satsang.'

I have it on good authority that Mike is no longer a premie and is a frequent visitor to the forum.

Anth with friends in low places.

(Cult forum cops- if you still inform anyone who is mentioned here, say hello to Mike from me, and tell him, if he's in the Netherlands to drop round for a cup of white widow.)

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:02:48 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: via Anth if you want
To: AJW
Subject: Intellectual Satsang
Message:
Hi Everybody

Anth writes 'I have it on good authority that Mike is no longer a premie...'.

I am not a premie in the sense of belonging to the premie cult, which is still alive and well, unfortunately; but I still practice Knowledge.

I read this Forum with interest. I don't have the bitterness and pain that many of you clearly feel, but I certainly understand it. I may even have contributed to it, as in the past I have spoken at many events, although I always tried to be 'clean' in the sense of talking from my own feeling rather than being the mouth-piece for the party line. To what extent I succeeded, I don't know. I am truly sorry if I added to anyone's pain.

I have also noticed on this Forum that attitudes tend to harden as time goes by. There are people who post here with some positive things about M and K -- for instance, Sandy and Turner -- and they have got very negative reaction, with poisonous personal attacks. This seems to me indicative of a cult - '..if you don't think like us you have no integrity, sincerity...whatever'. I think this is a shame. I will probably get negative responses to this posting, both from you Forum activists, and from premies. I would prefer that any responses come from people with their own name and are identifiable ('Bazza' writes that I am lurking; perhaps he/she is lurking behind the 'Bazza' handle, unless 'Bazza' is really your name, which I doubt !)

So I am not a 'premie' in the cultish sense; nor am I an 'ex-premie'. Whether there is anything you can take from M and K that is positive and worthwhile is a question that, for me, can only be answered privately and personally.

Sorry I don't fit in to either camp ! I am anticipating negative reaction, but I don't really care. I am standing on my own two feet, and enjoying it !! I certainly care if in the past I personally added to any of your pain, bitternes, whatever; and as I have already said, if so I am sorry.

I wish all of you well -- and if that sounds wishy-washy, so be it !

-- Mike

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 03:57:35 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: One question
Message:
If you don't consider yourself a premie, why did you go to the trouble of registering the domain name elanvital.tv when jondon announced it was available? Sorry if I jumped to conclusions over it, but you must see how that would look to us sceptics:)?
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 03:57:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Oh Mike, I couldn't agree with you more! -- NOT
Message:
I am not a premie in the sense of belonging to the premie cult, which is still alive and well, unfortunately; but I still practice Knowledge.

Well that certainly puts you a cut above us sheep here. see, Mike, it sounds like you, unlike me for instance, are a true individual. Like the Marlboro man, maybe. People like me, eh, we're nothing. Like I say, sheep. Common. You, on the other hand, well you know all about how many levels of logic? Wow! Too much, man. Too fucking much.

You know what I think is helpful in these discussions? I think it's helpful to consider the perspective of a fair, informed outsider. Say you were talking to someone with a passingly reasonable knowledge of the Maharaji cult. What would that person think? If they knew you did whatever you did, whether you were a PAM, an instructor, an ashramie or maybe even a long-time regular, would they call you a premie? Say they could watch video footage of you in the mid seventies, for example. Would they think you were a premie?

Okay, then there's now. Would the informed outsider who, for argument's sake, thought you were once a premie, say you wre still? I don't think it's really rocket science, you know. All you have to do is look at what the person does and what they say. That'll answer it. Do you still revere Maharaji? Oh, too strong a word? How about respect him? Do you still consider him your spiritual guide? Do you go to hear him talk, live or otherwise? My point is that, while you might be ginger about the label, an outsider wouldn't have that trouble. If I knew that someone was once a moonie and I had a chance to talk with him about it all and find out what ties, if any, he still has with that cult, I'd be able to satisfy myself as to whether he was still a moonie without too much trouble.

But then, like I say, you sound like you're cut from some very special cloth the likes of which I may know nothing about.

I read this Forum with interest. I don't have the bitterness and pain that many of you clearly feel, but I certainly understand it.

Oh yeah? Tell me about that. Frankly, I'm not convinced. Prove it.

I may even have contributed to it, as in the past I have spoken at many events, although I always tried to be 'clean' in the sense of talking from my own feeling rather than being the mouth-piece for the party line. To what extent I succeeded, I don't know. I am truly sorry if I added to anyone's pain.

Well, Mike, that shouldn't be hard to figure out. Just get out your old satsangs. Did you ever call Maharaji the Lord, divine, the saviour, etc. in satsang? Did you ever refer to him as some sort of spiritual behemoth, a big teenage mothership come for the planet? Did you ever call his so-called 'Knowledge' divine, the purpose of life and all that? Did you ever mention 'surrender' or 'the mind' in your satsang? You know, you just might the only premie that avoided promulgating the cult programming when you gave satsang.

Then again, you may be full of shit.

Clean? How's that? Either you stumped for the cult or you didn't, your own self-satisfaction notwithstanding.

I have also noticed on this Forum that attitudes tend to harden as time goes by. There are people who post here with some positive things about M and K -- for instance, Sandy and Turner -- and they have got very negative reaction, with poisonous personal attacks. This seems to me indicative of a cult - '..if you don't think like us you have no integrity, sincerity...whatever'. I think this is a shame. I will probably get negative responses to this posting, both from you Forum activists, and from premies. I would prefer that any responses come from people with their own name and are identifiable ('Bazza' writes that I am lurking; perhaps he/she is lurking behind the 'Bazza' handle, unless 'Bazza' is really your name, which I doubt !)

Well, what should we do about this, Mike? Survey the forum posters for a median attitude and consider that fair and reasonable and everything on either side extreme? Again, I find it useful to consider the informed, fair-minded outsider. What would he think was a reasonable attitude about Maharaji? My guess is that he would think Maharaji was a toad. My guess is that he would find Maharaji's entire life to be one treacherous deception and classic cult exploitation. Don't know where that places Sandy and Turner on the specturm but my guess is that Mr. Informed Outsider would dismiss their respect for Maharaji out of hand. Fast, strong, no hesitation, no questions asked. Some things are easy. Mr. IO would find that call one of life's easy ones.

So I'm with him. I was with you before, I was a premie, I considered all this stuff reasonable. Well I don't no more. Give me Mr. IO any day of the week. And what would he do? What would he think? He'd laugh any suggestion that there's a 'moderate' position to be had here! This thing is a cult, Mike. Was a cult, is a cult. At least for us sheep, I mean.

So I am not a 'premie' in the cultish sense; nor am I an 'ex-premie'. Whether there is anything you can take from M and K that is positive and worthwhile is a question that, for me, can only be answered privately and personally.

Only 'privately and personally', huh? Okaaaaayyyyyy ... nice talking with you, Mike. Say hi to the missus.

Sorry I don't fit in to either camp ! I am anticipating negative reaction, but I don't really care. I am standing on my own two feet, and enjoying it !! I certainly care if in the past I personally added to any of your pain, bitternes, whatever; and as I have already said, if so I am sorry.

Maybe one day you'll realize that you've still got your plastic wrapper on. They're removeable, you know?

I wish all of you well -- and if that sounds wishy-washy, so be it !

No spaces between your last letter and exclamation marks, please. Comply or the FA will have a word with you.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:48:30 (GMT)
From: EXiT
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Intellectual Satsang
Message:
Nice to hear from you Mike. I remember you well. I will be in touch. Take care, Nice post,

EXiT

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:11:38 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Intellectual Satsang
Message:
My dear boy!!
Mike – this is your old Brighton friend Patrick speaking here – how excellent to hear from you! I have been wondering how you are and indeed, you are now. To this end would you mind emailing me (patrick@patrickwilson.com) so as I can contact you away from the controversial hubub of this place.

I don’t know whether you noticed but I have been a fairly prolific contributor here at times. I used to post as ‘Anon’ – as I was nervous about being recognised and ostracised.

For the benefit of others reading this - Mike and I were in Brighton Ashram for quite a few years together. In fact we were a formative influence in some ways. I will always remember Mike with enormous fondness as one who was sincere, intelligent and great fun to be around.

It does not surprise me therefore Mike, that you write with sensible empathy for those who feel biterness at their former sacrifice and dedication.

I don't have the bitterness and pain that many of you clearly feel, but I certainly understand it.

You add..

I may even have contributed to it, as in the past I have spoken at many events, although I always tried to be 'clean' in the sense of talking from my own feeling rather than being the mouth-piece for the party line. To what extent I succeeded, I don't know. I am truly sorry if I added to anyone's pain.

My interpretation is that you, like all of us who were sincere and genuinely motivated, are not really responsible for being ‘cultified’ and our part in spreading ‘cultification’ is not something to be too ashamed of. I do think that we owe it ourselves and possibly others, to say how we feel now – I think that sharing some understanding about the whole thing really helps one to move on. I think it is quite important to share ones feelings - not something that we were encouraged to do in latter day Maharaji's world.

I have also noticed on this Forum that attitudes tend to harden as time goes by. There are people who post here with some positive things about M and K -- for instance, Sandy and Turner -- and they have got very negative reaction, with poisonous personal attacks. This seems to me indicative of a cult - '..if you don't think like us you have no integrity, sincerity...whatever'. I think this is a shame.

Well Mike, as a frequent visitor to this site since it’s inception, I can say that I totally agree with you. I consider it a great shame that a number of people seem to have nothing better to do than to use this forum as a chat room where they can exercise their perverse and narrow-minded tendencies to venemously attack anyone and everyone at the slightest pretext. Actually it’s pathetic. I know many wonderful people who would love to talk here but don’t want to have to grapple with outright rudeness. As a matter of fact I have been considering abandoning reading this forum altogether because I am so disgusted with wading through these predominating idiotic arguments – however reading your name has given me a renewed interest to respond. If more sensible people like you chose to chime in, maybe we could outweigh the rude, bad-mouthed mob and make this place somewhere where civilised, constructive discussion predominates.

So I am not a 'premie' in the cultish sense; nor am I an 'ex-premie'. Whether there is anything you can take from M and K that is positive and worthwhile is a question that, for me, can only be answered privately and personally.

Again my feelings exactly. I totally respect where you’re coming from.

Sorry I don't fit in to either camp ! I am anticipating negative reaction, but I don't really care. I am standing on my own two feet, and enjoying it !! I certainly care if in the past I personally added to any of your pain, bitternes, whatever; and as I have already said, if so I am sorry.

A totally unneccessary, sweet apology, from a very sweet nice guy. No apology needed Mike. I don't fit into either camp either.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 20:09:24 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Hi Mike
Message:
Hi Mike,

Howya doin'? Has Michael Dettmers' posts about Maharaji's drinking, abusiveness and killing a cyclist had any effect on your view of him?

And surely, if you were once, but are no longer, a premie, by definition, you are an ex-premie, n'est ce pas?

I think my attitude has hardened over the couple of years I've been posting. It seems to be part of the natural process of leaving a cult.

Nice to see you post here Mike.

Take care

Anth the burner of the book.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:59:42 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Intellectual Satsang
Message:
you said'So I am not a 'premie' in the cultish sense; nor am I an 'ex-premie'. '

That's fine.

Could you tell me how you view the information about prempal's protection of Jagdeo?

Jethro

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:44:47 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Intellectual Satsang, no hint given
Message:
Not a hint about what you actually think of Maharaji. This is the dividing line, imo, both Sandy and Turner were of the opinion that Maharaji is specially divine, those that 'attacked' were of the opinion that Maharaji is an ordinary mortal of poor character.

That is my opinion about Rawat, what is yours?

Thanks for caring about your effect on others, that sentiment alone proves you are not a card carrying premie! Personally, I am enjoying being able to care about others without a neurotic concern developing over whether some princess guru has a pea under his mattress.

I think it is somewhat unfair to say that the 'ex-premie cult' launches nasty personal attacks without also saying that it is obvious that a lot of these posts are a genuine attempt to help someone examine their belief system. A belief system with a serious warp factor in it.

Regards, Lesley.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:45:19 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Hey Mike
Message:
Loved your post.

Sorry I'm anon - I have my reasons. Bazza is his real nickname and I believe he often posts under his real name.

I pretty much agreed with everything you said. So there! ;––) Quite a cultic phenomenon of abuse of dissenters going on here. Also agree about the hardening of the line. And that it's not all cut and dried.

I remember you, but don't believe you would remember me, sitting in the back row at the Palace of Peace, having dropped out of my university degree to live in the shram. No complaints though - well almost none. I'm doing great, and I'm glad I did what I did although I'm still suffering from some of the effects of MJ's cruelty in the area of my health.

Love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:05:58 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Hey Mike
Message:
'Loved your post' -- well, well, thanks Disculta for making the first response positive !!

Glad you are doing well.

-- Mike

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:38:39 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Hey Mike/I think you should stay...
Message:
Mike-I agree with everything you said.

I think that for many of those reasons, you should stay, and contribute....maybe a few people like you can move the dialog in a direction more in line with what you talk about.

You seem to have a balanced perspective, and I think your opinions and perspectives could help anyone reading these posts understand more of the stuff that needs to be aired out and discussed...

Thanks for posting,
I need to be anonyomous at this time,
la-ex

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:52:16 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Hey Mike
Message:
Mike, your not liking the cult is the most important thing in my book. If you lurk here long enough you'll see that there are many opposing views and I respect yours. I've only been here 4 weeks after 28 years in the cult. I still enjoy meditation and don't feel as angry as some of the guys here but then I was never ground down in the ashram mill.
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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 19:40:55 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: One and the same...NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 02:36:53 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Your questions...
Message:
Hi Everybody again !

I have been pleasantly surprised by the generally sweet and sympathetic responses. To answer some of your questions:

Anth writes: 'And surely, if you were once, but are no longer, a premie, by definition, you are an ex-premie, n'est ce pas?'

Ah, Anth, shall we get into the intricacies of 3-valued logic versus 2-valued logic ?! Only joking. Leaving aside the Indian meaning of 'premie' as 'lover', by 'premie' I mean a follower of what I perceive as a cult, centered around M. I don't want to be a part of that cult, so I am not a premie in that sense. So the question for me is: Is there any part of what M is teaching that is directly relevant to me, and is not part of the cult ? My own answer is Yes. Since an 'ex-premie' seems to reject not only the premie cult, but also anything remotely good and worthwhile that M teaches, then I am not an 'ex-premie' either. Thus I am not a premie, nor an ex-premie, QED, n'est ce pas ?

Jethro writes: 'Could you tell me how you view the information about prempal's protection of Jagdeo?'

I don't know enough about this. I certainly think that abusers, and protectors of abusers, should be brought to book, but to what extent M was involved, I do not know. Many of you will think this a cop-out, but it is the fact - I do not know.

Lesley writes: 'Not a hint about what you actually think of Maharaji. This is the dividing line, imo, both Sandy and Turner were of the opinion that Maharaji is specially divine, those that 'attacked' were of the opinion that Maharaji is an ordinary mortal of poor character. That is my opinion about Rawat, what is yours?'

I don't have an opinion on whether M is specially divine, or ordinary mortal - actually I couldn't care less. The question that interests me is: What, if anything, can I get from M and K, whoever and whatever he is ? And I don't believe that this question can be answered by anything other than personal experience - there is no right or wrong answer to that question. It is rather like you are dying of thirst in the desert - would you refuse water because you thought the guy who comes by with the water-bottle was a drunkard who killed people, etc, etc ? The moral character of the water-carrier is of small significance compared to whether he actually has water or not.

This is getting a bit premie-ish satsang-ish, but you get my point I hope...

I better sign off before I start dreaming about the Palace of Peace !!

Take care everyone

-- Mike

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 17:01:24 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: The heart of Premie soulessness
Message:
I don't have an opinion on whether M is specially divine, or ordinary mortal - actually I couldn't care less. The question that interests me is: What, if anything, can I get from M and K, whoever and whatever he is ? And I don't believe that this question can be answered by anything other than personal experience -

OK, Mike, honeymoon's over. Yes, you sure are getting premie-ish when you say the above. And it's this attitude that irks me most about the entire cult: my 'experience,' what I can get, get get out of it etc.

This stuff makes me puke. The cult turns nice people like you into thoughless self-centered droids who end up sputtering nonsense ala Sandford Pass. What about the rest the cult victims? The ones that committed suicide over this nonsense, the ones who worked themselves into permanent disability at DECA, or the ones who became seriously mentally ill because they couldn't live up to Fatass's scrambled and contradictory 'message?'

What about all these broken people, huh? Oh never mind, it's YOUR EXPERIENCE that really matters and fuck the rest of us suckers, right? You don't give a ratass about other victims past or future, right? As long as you have a nice 'experience.' Yeah, you're a real sweetheart and I'm a bulldog because I say fuck this attitude and rotten self-centered cult apologists who promote it.

And of course the fatass guru is not 'divine.' What the fuck !!! Can there be any question about this? Jesus fucking Christ, get real. You REALLY need to read the main part of this website and get your head screwed back on about all this. It's time for Mikey to grow up and get over this destructive fairy tale.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:23:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: hi again Mike.
Message:
Thanks for taking the time to answer the questions.

You say, 'Since an 'ex-premie' seems to reject not only the premie cult, but also anything remotely good and worthwhile that M teaches.'

Could you explain, or summarise, anything 'Good and worthwhile that M teaches'? Remotely will do fine.

All he taught me was to worship, obey, not question, send cash and lick snot.

Anth -'lets' sing a lament, his world isn't round, it's twisted and bent'.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 10:08:16 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Response to your reponse
Message:
<I don't know enough about this. I certainly think that abusers, and protectors of abusers, should be brought to book, but to what extent M was involved, I do not know. Many of you will think this a cop-out, but it is the fact - I do not know.>>

Okay so you don't know. Please read all the info on this site and then give us an opinion.
If you discover that prempal did protect Jagdeo, woulod that change your opinion of him?

That may not make any differenve to you as you said
<>

I have to say that I used to say the same thing.....until I discovered what a greedy shit prempal is.


jethro

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 04:35:25 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: your reply
Message:
don't have an opinion on whether M is specially divine, or ordinary mortal - actually I couldn't care less. The question that interests me is: What, if anything, can I get from M and K, whoever and whatever he is ? And I don't believe that this question can be answered by anything other than personal experience - there is no right or wrong answer to that question. It is rather like you are dying of thirst in the desert - would you refuse water because you thought the guy who comes by with the water-bottle was a drunkard who killed people, etc, etc ? The moral character of the water-carrier is of small significance compared to whether he actually has water or not.

First of all, I think you always had water. In fact, there are plenty of places, and water fountains everywhere, and people hawking water all over the place. All he did was make a lot of claims about how special the water was, put you through a long water selection proccess before he gave you the water, and make you feel very special indeed for being one of the few that recognized the value of the water. Then he implied you should be VERY VERY grateful for this water, adn worship the water bearer. Even though others give the water without the joining the club, asking for gratitude, etc.

His character matters. It matters a lot. I think you still have some things to examine about your time in EV/DLM and the mark it has made on you.

If a murderer, or rapist, or Hitler, gave me water in a desert that would be great and all...but it would not in any way mitigate his character flaws. And if the character flaws are manifested in one's willingness to be worshipped as the living incarnation of the Superior Power in Person ( God ) and live a life of power, wealth, and privledge because people are giving you money because they think God gave them the water, it matters.

Do you agree?

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 14:30:42 (GMT)
From: baz
Email: None
To: all
Subject: satguru or not guru
Message:
readers of this thread may find thread started by Postie below
'satguru or not guru' of interest
baz
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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 16:46:14 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: janet: check this
Message:
http://www.elanvital.org.uk/intouch/projects.html

health & safety

No don't you go all funny on us

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 04:05:45 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Health and safety issues
Message:
That's very interesting salam.

Now I wonder who is making the Worker's Compensation payments required in the US? Your volunteer workers are insured, aren't they EV?

I know for a fact that many Hotels and Convention Centers over here, especially those with Union labor contracts, would balk at the possibility of an Accidental Death or Injury lawsuit filed by the family of either an injured 'volunteer' or of someone hurt by a volunteer's negligence.

What do you think Marianne?

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:30:55 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Not my area
Message:
I think you know more about this than I do, Bazza.

As for the information on the EV website, it sounds like a whole lot of nothing.

Health and safety are going to be cult concerns now? They certainly weren't before, were they? Ask Charlie about the grave concern with health and safety which he experienced building stages the world over for Rotwat.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 13:15:57 (GMT)
From: Brendan Murphy
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Impressive! A little Professional Discernment (n
Message:
t)
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 14:44:42 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Brendan Murphy
Subject: Where's your pecs, buddy?
Message:
I love you too Brendan. Now show us your stuff, or are you just a braggart?

I am not looking for a fight. I grew up with 4 big brothers and learned very early on how to defend myself physically and verbally. If you pick a fight with me, I will defend myself, but I really don't like to get into cyber shouting matches with premies, which you seem to be.

Do tell us why you're here. You never answer my quite pointed questions.

Your new friend and ardent admirer of the pecs you say you possess, Marianne

PS Do you know Harry?

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:47:47 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne, I emailed you OT
Message:
and I have got to go to bed now. Have fun.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 04:37:47 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Health and safety issues
Message:
One of the things that shocked me was the fact that the local volunteers were NOT covered by workers' comp and that no one had thought to buy liabilty insurance.
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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 20:44:56 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Check this
Message:
From the Penzance report:-

During the summer people worked together on a project to buy a satellite dish for the room.

How can a bunch of people work together on a project to buy something that costs $150 max? Assuming there are at least 15 premies there, that's $10 each. So a bunch of people donating $10 each is hardly a project. Why can't these people speak English? Like, 15 of us got together and bought a satellite dish.

John who bought a satellite dish without calling it a project.

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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 19:31:48 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: More Orwellian double-speak from the cult
Message:
VY says: ''Team work is the most effective approach to bringing together the personal efforts and energy of volunteers; and a very efficient way of moving forward to achieve results.''

The redundancy of the wording (I thought team work was the ONLY way to bring together) is used to obfuscate.

What these words really mean is: ''We will not tolerate indivuals who are self-motivated and independent minded Lone Rangers. You will conform to the group.''

Definitely Big Brother from ''1984'' with shades of Ayn Rand's ''We, the Living.''

Can I have a lobotomy before I ''join the team?''

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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 22:49:53 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Patrick, you don't need a lobodomy...
Message:
Hi Patrick,

You don't need a lobodomy, just participate, you know, all you have to do is conform to the synchronicity of the Knowledge and then your lobodomy will be complete! Compliments of the words of the Very Reverend Prempal Singh Rawat, a/k/a Guru Maharaji Ji, a/k/a, Lord of the Universe, a/k/a , Perfect Master, a/k/a the Master of Perfection, a/k/a, ayucka!

See, it's easy! No lobodomy required.

The only ''team'' in Maharaji's cult, is Maharaji!

Hope you and yours are well,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:44:43 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia (OT)
Message:
Thanks for your good wishes. I hope you and your loved ones are well and happy too. I know we're fortunate to have gotten out of Mr Rawat's clutches.
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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 22:53:03 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: P.S. I hate word ''TEAMWORK'' Barf.....(nt)
Message:
gulp, puke, worship the great porcelan goddess....
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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 18:01:40 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: This is outrageous Bull Shit from the EV cult (nt)
Message:
asdf
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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 14:24:25 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Journalists are reading this site
Message:
Beware the Ides of March. Now who said that and why?

Yes, beware indeed. Investigative journalists are reading this site as this post is made.

KIA

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:59:07 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Journalists are reading this site
Message:
I have been in contact with a journalist in Beantown who is very interested in doing a story on this subject. He had a friend involved in the People's Temple Cult. He is especially interested in the Amaroo situation. I have turned him on to this site and he is amazed at the amount of info. available. He is devoting his time to researching info. from this site and plans to one day publish an article in one of the big papers. He has also become an aspirant for investigative purposes, and has been attending videos.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 21:49:56 (GMT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: It's about time some real light was shed on this
Message:
Maharaji has flown under the radar of the press for years, I used to think that he took this low profile position was because how could anyone who is not a devotee accurately report on The lord of the Universe.

I now see it for what it really is, how could anyone who is a devotee accurately report on the activities of M who is really just a con man.

Ironically maharaji professes to be the revealer of light you know!
Go get'em journalists, the time has come to shed some real light on this cockroach and send him scurring away

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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 14:37:37 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Two articles in the air.
Message:
Hi Know it All,

I've heard of at least two articles coming out about the cult soon. One is in a magazine, which is devoting most of the issue to Maharaji and the Cult. Apparently there's going to be something on Jagdeo, and maybe the more recent revelations too.

And I also heard that there's a newspaper article in the pipeline again. I'm getting my hair cut in case they want to interview me.

Anth (please, no pictures).

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 04:35:01 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: when?
Message:
Last pig that flew by was a while back.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 13:53:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Salam....
Message:
...have you started going to videos again?

How can you doubt the word of a self-appointed EPO Press Officer?

Soon you will be eating your words, you doubting aussie mujahadeen homophobic terrorist.

Anth the press release

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 15:17:10 (GMT)
From: what
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: is it now
Message:
Hay man, am planing a trip to Amaroo, and that is no bull, got it all worked out, by the time you guys do something, we'll be six foot under.

Am taking money, a couple of blondies and a week supply of cream pies. I already arranged for a satelitte to be over Amaroo during April.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 17:44:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: what
Subject: How much is the registration and camping fee?
Message:
wonder if you'll still go when you find out?
ha ha hahaha ha ha hanth
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 01:16:37 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Two articles in the air/can you tell us more?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:21:04 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: It's a secret.
Message:
Hi la-ex,

Last time there was an article due to appear in a newspaper, the cult sent legal letters to everyone. Then Jonathon Cainer showed up and offered to work for the paper. And the article was spiked.

We thought it better to let the cult find out about the articles when they were published this time.

I had an email today, and there may be a third article on the way too.

I can tell you this much. One should be out in March. It's a really big one, and I think most of the magazine is devoted to it. The other two should be in newspapers. Two in Europe and one in the states.

I believe there is also some activity going on with the press in Australia, related to the upcoming programme at Jokesville Amaroo. Watch this space.

Anth the Repressed Press Officer.

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Date: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 00:46:56 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth-do you know the' tone 'of the articles?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 00:00:40 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Cool
Message:
Let us know everything about these articles (where and when they are coming out). It's so good to know that all our squawking here is actually lucid enough for a jouranlist to 'get the basic plot.'

Maybe I will get a double facelift just like Linda Tripp in case they want to feature me in one of these articles!
(Now that Clinton's gone, D.C. is soooo boring! The cast of characters around him was so fascinating, without him whatever shall I do? Sigh....)

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:15:46 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Details will be forthcoming
Message:
We can't say anything until these articles are about to be printed, or have been printed. Rest assured that there are genuine and legitimate investigative journalists in more than one country who are hot on the trail of the cult and those who run it. This is not a piece of misinformation designed to make the cult operators uncomfortable. It is fact. One article should surface within the month, perhaps even earlier than that.

Stay tuned.

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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:38:36 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Details will be forthcoming
Message:
Keep us posted, oh secretive one.
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Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 10:59:40 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: the announcers
Subject: notify us by private email--not on here..nt
Message:
ok?
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Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 16:08:37 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: -
To: AJW
Subject: Something on this side of the pond too nt
Message:
weeeee
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