Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 05:07:59 (GMT)
From: Feb 03, 2001 To: Feb 13, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


JHB -:- A Life from ELK -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 20:56:50 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Sounds like his Lotus is well rooted... -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 21:38:40 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- A message from Milky on ELK -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 21:25:27 (GMT)
__ __ Conlon -:- When did Milky post that on ELK? -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 02:39:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Milky Cole To Conlon -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:45:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Ooooerrrr. -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 11:24:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Message for Milky. -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 16:04:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- its aaaaarite matey,seeya at Latvian eve nt -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:19:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Clarification on Milky -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 17:56:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Cobblers Anth!!!! -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:09:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks - another brainwashed premie n/t -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:05:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Conlon -:- Jethro thanks for info re: Milky Cole -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:14:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- To Conlon -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:01:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Curious Gorge -:- To Conlon -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:16:09 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- The pallet of humility ??? -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 23:20:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- The pallet of humility ??? -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:40:25 (GMT)
__ __ Tim G -:- What the fuck is this 'Milky ' on about? nt -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 22:39:22 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Another ELK posting from Noel -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 21:11:52 (GMT)
__ __ Lurkin -:- Hmm, quite some Bisto moment there.. -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:56:20 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Another ELK posting from Noel -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 02:00:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Maurice -:- Truth and Lies. -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 02:28:03 (GMT)
__ __ Maurice -:- The Winter Solstice Lies Within. -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 23:19:27 (GMT)
__ __ Tim G -:- Has He completely lost his marbles? -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 22:37:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Conlon -:- ELK posters' wishful thinking and fear -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 02:44:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Yes I've got some embarassing ... -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:02:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Conlon -:- I'll show you my embarassing gopi stuff -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:09:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I'll show you my embarassing gopi stuff -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:45:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Conlon -:- The guru hates that embarassing gopi stuff -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:55:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- If I get myself to practice! n/t -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:07:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Conlon -:- Please sing ''Lila'' Francesca -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:14:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- That was Polly Bolton, not me ... -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 23:37:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ X -:- singer -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:47:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Polly Bolton also n/t -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 05:03:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Polly Bolton/Lila -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 02:03:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- The basement tapes -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 06:43:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- The basement tapes - thanks Francesca -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:27:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Uh, Patrcik -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:53:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Uh, Joe it's better than sperm gonna swim -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 23:12:01 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Gimme That Old Time Religion -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 17:18:28 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Report From The Front -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:52:32 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Steve, just because no one responds... -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 09:51:26 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- They Asked Me If I Wanted To Do Service! -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:25:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- I Met Someone You May Know -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 16:53:04 (GMT)

CultbusterUK -:- Great News from EV! -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 17:18:00 (GMT)

Will -:- Rich premies 'Buying their heaven' -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 16:48:21 (GMT)
__ Aussi Ji -:- Rich premies 'Buying their heaven' -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:50:46 (GMT)
__ __ Conlon -:- Rich patronizing PWKs -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 05:34:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- Rich patronizing PWKs -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 09:23:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- To Aussi: RE Moonies -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 08:05:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Aussi ji -:- To Jethro.At the moment it would appear -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 08:57:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Moonism v Mahara-jism -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 21:11:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Moonism v Mahara-jism -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:13:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Jethro, guilty for eating eggs -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 23:03:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Jethro, guilty for eating eggs -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 23:54:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Conlon -:- Aussie, one man's satan is another man's savior -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 10:30:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ aussi ji -:- Aussie, one man's satan is another man's savior -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 09:03:41 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Rawat's scam is truly democratic ..... -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 23:32:08 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Just like the 'Indulgences' of the Catholic -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 16:51:42 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- dante's inferno-the 9th circle reserved a .. -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 12:04:46 (GMT)

Roy -:- mostly musing -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 05:58:29 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Hello Roy , we're all in the same boat ....... -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 21:56:48 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- mostly musing -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 19:39:54 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- mostly musing -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 12:33:09 (GMT)
__ Conlon -:- Hello, Roy, I hope you continue to post -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 19:08:06 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Nice to hear from you, Roy -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 18:54:52 (GMT)
__ __ Roy -:- Nice to hear from you, Roy -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 20:33:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Nice to hear from you, Roy -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 12:31:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Conlon -:- Roy, anyone who enjoys Henry James has my full -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 01:48:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roy -:- Roy, anyone who enjoys Henry James has my full -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 01:58:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Conlon -:- Henry James -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 02:49:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Henry James -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:20:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Helen, thanks for movie review OT/NS -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:43:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- he's my favorite horn player, too nt -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:08:41 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Good Morning Tuscon. -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 13:05:50 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Congratulations Roy! -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 09:34:24 (GMT)

jondon -:- Well I am all alone here now... -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 04:07:45 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Well I am all alone here now... -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 05:42:33 (GMT)
__ al-ex -:- dont count -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 23:33:03 (GMT)
__ __ jondon -:- dont count -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 00:18:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ al-ex -:- dont count -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:48:20 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- you still have tv jondon -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 12:49:01 (GMT)
__ __ jondon -:- you still have tv jondon -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 00:25:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- As Abbie Hoffman said... -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 13:26:05 (GMT)

cq -:- Religious intolerance - an issue to address -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 19:20:48 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- scary article -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 21:50:08 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- What a stupid article! -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 17:53:11 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- As if religious tolerance could be anything but? -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:09:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Not too sure what you're talking about (are you?) -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 02:24:14 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- choice bits (between unexceptional sentiments) -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 19:45:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- cultish fellow traveller I was, John, (not you?) -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:53:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- towards a definition of cults -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:48:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- towards a definition of cults - a wider one? -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:42:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks cq and William James NT -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 21:05:21 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- Religious intolerance - an issue to address -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:18:48 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Religious intolerance - an issue to address -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:02:06 (GMT)
__ __ sam -:- Religious intolerance - an issue to address -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 03:06:08 (GMT)
__ bill -:- god aint worth all the trouble he causes -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 21:50:09 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Bingo Bill!! -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:20:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Yes, great quote, Bill :)!(nt) -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:33:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- OOPS! sorry god, or whatever your name is.....nt -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 04:58:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- just DON'T call him Maharaji! ... (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:04:04 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Religious intolerance - an issue to address -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 21:46:35 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Religious intolerance - an issue to address -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:26:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Stonor, certainly you don't believe that Maharaji -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 00:06:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Absolutely NOT! -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 00:28:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Absolutely NOT! -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 02:19:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Absolutely NOT! -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 16:47:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Cults, sects and such -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 20:13:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Cults, sects and such -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 02:07:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- PS -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:52:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- How true! -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 17:39:35 (GMT)

chr -:- Questions -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 16:00:05 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- Answers -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 00:57:17 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Just curious -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 13:38:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Put you in the picture -:- Just curious -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 13:59:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Just curious -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:58:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PYITP -:- Just curious -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:51:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Just curious -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:27:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PYITP -:- Just curious -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 23:48:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Thanks (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:00:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham the hamzen -:- And we're going to kidnap and take him to a desert -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 00:59:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Come to think of it........ -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:06:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Just curious -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 14:51:48 (GMT)
__ __ chr -:- Answers -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 01:48:06 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Michael - One more question -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 01:25:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- One more answer -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 14:48:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Michael: Did M meditate? -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 19:22:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Did M meditate? -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 19:46:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Michael: r.e., meditation -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 00:35:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- r.e., meditation -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:27:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Virgil -:- r.e., meditation -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 06:37:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Insideout -:- r.e., meditation -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:43:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- r.e., meditation -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 14:03:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Virgil,Were you in India in 1981? -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 08:13:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PYITP -:- Virgil,Were you in India in 1981? -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 12:49:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Virgil,Were you in India in 1981? -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 16:30:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Virgil, I remember you, you were at DECA, too... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:10:05 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Questions -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 21:54:44 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Questions--Deca -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 20:03:00 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Questions--Deca -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 21:56:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Questions--Deca--bill, I remember that place... -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:03:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Questions--Deca--bill, I remember that place... -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 05:05:44 (GMT)
__ Jethrro -:- Questions -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 16:47:43 (GMT)
__ chr -:- Above post directed to Michael Dettmers (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 16:02:12 (GMT)

Jim -:- ELK Expressions are getting weirder alright -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 15:30:50 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- an enemy waiting... -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:36:17 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Rawfat -- more expensive than sniffing glue n/t -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:17:59 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Rawfat -- or smelling lotus feet w/Lagerfeld n/t -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:48:01 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Oh the Gratitude! This one breath..... -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 16:21:33 (GMT)
__ SB -:- It seems like BRAIN DAMAGE (NT) -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 15:59:07 (GMT)

Jethro -:- Article on satpal(a former follower of prempal) -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 14:06:24 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Did you read about the riot? -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 18:09:55 (GMT)
__ __ jean-Paul -:- Angels? -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 22:00:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Lack of education and the whammy juju -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:13:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Angels with Horns? -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 22:39:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Not sure it was just certainty in reincarnation -:- Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:06:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Maybe it was the air quality.. -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 01:52:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Yes definitely. Someone from ... -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 02:14:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Paul -:- Juxtapositions -:- Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 13:20:45 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 20:56:50 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A Life from ELK
Message:
This is from Noel Phillips, from Sheffield, UK, on ELK, and knowing the guy from Brighton, I suspect he really is as blissed out as he sounds. If only he would realise it doesn't come from Prem Pal Rawat.

John.
------------------------------------------------------

Noel Phillips

Messengers of the heart

Noel from Malibu, California, writes of the freedom of a life with Knowledge.

My master has shown me, that today is the only day of my life. That today sets me free, free to be in love with his message from my heart. After years of
trying to break free of conditioned existence, I am finally at peace. Moving as simply as I can from breath to breath, moment to moment. Enjoying every
minute of the play. He has shown me how to allow. To stop rushing madly towards the future in search of something. To enjoy being, as opposed to
becoming. Maharaji has taught me the art of the heart. I am painting the picture of everyday life. I am apprenticed to the master poet , master artist,
master musician, master storyteller himself

I have learned how to express divine beauty. Today is my canvas. Everywhere is the stage. I am letting the beauty of my heart come to the surface. I
choose to speak only about love, to think only of today. I am living in the present tense. I am learning how to actualise my own divinity. through his
example, I have learned of the living poem of life and communion with the source of all creative endeavour. Paradise on earth has become my reality. I
breathe, touch, taste and feel all the love given to me by this moment's reality. Life is truly living through me. I cannot express my gratitude in words
sufficiently to do justice to his patience, kindness, generosity to me. My gratitude is expressed through living, enjoying the feast prepared at the table of
today's life. Thank you for my new birth. Before I wandered in the world of broken dreams, the valley of the shadow of death. Today I am his messenger of
the heart. Today my senses make sense. I am living in his world. I have rejoined the circle of friends. I am complete.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 21:38:40 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Sounds like his Lotus is well rooted...
Message:
.....& good luck to him .

If you're a mate , tell him to keep his wallet buttoned & his mind in neutral .

He could well make it , whatever that means in this context .

As Madame de Maintenon (lover of the Sun King ) said to Voltaire : ' the worst thing you can do to anyone is to destroy their illusions '.

I really feel sorry for the truly blissful ones , they have so far to fall.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 21:25:27 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A message from Milky on ELK
Message:
Sorry if it's been posted before but I've been searching for old acquaintances on ELK:-

Anyway, from Michael (Milky) Cole:-

John

-------------------------------------------------
Living soul

The art of the soul is working with the pallet of humility. Thank you for this site it is most welcome.

Michael Cole
Brixham, Devon, UK

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 02:39:33 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: When did Milky post that on ELK?
Message:
Is he still a premie? Can't wait for him to see the light. Has he got some stories to tell. I'll bite my tongue as they aren't really mine to tell but I sure hope he tells his stories one day.

The last time I saw him was in a florist shop in Malibu in 78. He was so excited as Maharaji had just forgiven him and invited him to the Rez, Milky was buying flowers to take to his lord.

Milky is the sweetest man and Mr Rawat treated him like dirt when he (Milky) got married. Milky, like many of the premies at the time, thought that they should emulate M when he marrried Marolyn. But instead Mr R cast Milky into the outer darkness for nearly four years when he heard that his male gopi had married.

The stories that I heard at the time made it clear that Mr R was an extremely jealous person. And at the time I found that character flaw rather endearing, true gopi that I was.

But now I see that the young Prempal's jealous tantrums were harbingers of his latter day megalomania.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:45:22 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: Re: Milky Cole To Conlon
Message:
Hi Conlon,

I knew Cole's second wife, Penny, who I spoke to a week before she died of an overdose.
In that last concersation she was telling how she had been brutally raped and when she went to Cole for some support(they were not together at the time)he told her that what happened was because of her karma.

I have related this before onthe forum, but it was long before you posted here.

Regards Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 11:24:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Ooooerrrr.
Message:
Hi Jeth'

the reason I put that up, was because the first time I read your post I thought you were saying that he raped her. I had to read it a second time to be clear. I thought, 'If I misunderstood, maybe other people did', so I thought I'd clear it up.

I did meet Milky three of four years ago. He was setting himself up as a 'mini-guru'. He'd written a couple of bullshit books, and, as far as I could tell, he believed he'd reached some sort of 'enlightened state'. He was appearing on Devon radio, spouting his words of wisdom and pushing his book. I got the impression he was scouring around for disciples.

There was a brilliant quote from Norman Wisdom on the cover of his first effort, but I can't remember it. It was the only thing in the book worth reading. (It's on the back cover, so you can read it on the shelf and save some money.)

Anth ready for a pizza (see you in London Jeth')

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 16:04:32 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: EV Monitors
Subject: Message for Milky.
Message:
Hi,

When you pass my post on to Milky. Tell him, although his books are full of New-Age crap, and I don't he'll make a very good guru, I have nothing against him personally.

And tell Sandy Collier to hurry up with our blender.

Thanks,

Anth, who's written his share of crap too, but is having problems juicing his carrots.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:19:17 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: its aaaaarite matey,seeya at Latvian eve nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 17:56:09 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Clarification on Milky
Message:
Hi Jeth',

I know you didn't intend it, but what you wrote above, could be misread and give the impression that it was Milky who raped his estranged wife.

Just to clarify, she went to see Milky after it happened.

Anth the pedantic

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:09:49 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Cobblers Anth!!!!
Message:
Hi Anth

My post is perfectly clear and does not in any way imply that Milky physically hurt Penny.

How do you know Penny went to see him?..I suppose you have talked to Milky.

I have put this information up before(when you were still in premie-land) and he put up no response.

Why can't he talk for himself? Why are you talking for him.

See you on the Latvian night??

Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:05:55 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Thanks - another brainwashed premie n/t
Message:
rawfat
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:14:19 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Jethro thanks for info re: Milky Cole
Message:
It certainly explains why I never fell for his charms and kept my distance.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:01:16 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: To Conlon
Message:
He is a scumbag with a 'spiritual' ego as big as 1000000 suns.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:16:09 (GMT)
From: Curious Gorge
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: To Conlon
Message:
I agree. I have had three very negative encounters with Milky Cole. I'm not going to say what they are. I've already been outed on this forum.

C.G.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 23:20:58 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: The pallet of humility ???
Message:
A lot less poetic than say, ahem, a pallette (as in a pallette of colors?).

The kind of pallet old Milky is talking about usually requires a forklift for it to get anywhere. He's a nice guy though. A mind is a terrible thing to waste ...

F

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:40:25 (GMT)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: The pallet of humility ???
Message:
Fran, I was noticing the general lack of punctuation.

Hey, wait a minute..... maybe he WAS meaning a pallet..... so he can lay his many colors at the master's feet..... with a forklift..... :-)

Seriously, Michael has the pallet (sic) and Noel is painting the universe..... we should get these two together. :-)

NAR

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 22:39:22 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: JHB
Subject: What the fuck is this 'Milky ' on about? nt
Message:
Whoaaaa
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 21:11:52 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Another ELK posting from Noel
Message:
As I said before, I suspect Noel is sincere here (although I am not ruling out psychotropic assistance). I think he should start his own meditation teaching business:-) He certainly seems to meditate more than his guru. Also, the other posters on ELK never actually go into any details about their meditation experiences.

John who got pretty high on accasions in his time as well.

-------------------------------------------------
Noel Phillips: 'Timeless being lies within.'

From Malibu, Ca, USA

After years of tunnelling in the subconscious, this mole finally broke through to the sunshine.

Alice emerged from Topsy Turvy land into the fathomless astonishment. Actually I didn't go anywhere. There is nowhere to go. My perspective shifted
.Also I didn't employ much effort, just made myself available. I closed my eyes, and settled down to practise. Then after a few minutes, I felt myself being
drawn into something. Suddenly the outlines of my body disappeared, and I became part of a formless, limitless being. Knowledge realised me .What a
feeling! Oceanic, endless bliss .As my body slowly re-appeared, every pore was filled with ecstasy. What relief!

People talk about dying to your old self. I say: 'It's being born into yourself.' All that is necessary in order to do this, is to let go, relax, and allow. We
always talk about wanting to be. It's not like that. We have to let it be. Let Knowledge do the work. The effort is in making yourself available, to hear,
taste, and see a different form of being. To move as simply as possible from moment to moment. Breath to breath. Appreciating every single day of this
adventure. I felt like one of the early pioneers. All my fear had gone. All the tears of frustration. All the times of doubt. All the weariness.

I immediately stood up and went over to my desk and wrote these words: 'Timeless being lies within, there's no such world of death or sin. All is perfect
in the perfect play, morning light takes the darkness away. Cinderella in her dreaming sleep, awaits the prince's kisses deep. Today I am enjoying an
unbroken communication with myself. Everything that Maharaji promised to me has come true. Father Christmas came early this year. Thank you is such
a limited word. My whole being has become an expression of gratitude. I am learning to talk and walk the real. I am at home in my heart, and it just
keeps getting better.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:56:20 (GMT)
From: Lurkin
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Hmm, quite some Bisto moment there..
Message:
I immediately stood up and went over to my desk and wrote these words:
'Timeless being lies within,
there's no such world of death or sin.
All is perfect in the perfect play, morning light takes the darkness away.
Cinderella in her dreaming sleep, awaits the prince's kisses deep.

I lie here in a timeless state
(I lost my wristwatch down a grate)
So now I'll never, ever die,
Do naughty things or tell a lie.
Like Cinders swept off to the ball
I've left my slipper in the hall
But if he tries to suck my face
I'll twat him in some private place.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 02:00:38 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Another ELK posting from Noel
Message:
As much as I have loved Noels talent for poetry and his blissful intoxicated songs over the years...

When I hear such poetry and all the so-called expressions of gratitude and bliss that are offered up such as at Enjoying Life etc - I do not always hear the voice of humble satisfaction of someone experiencing Gods love. I sometimes hear something else.

Something rather more self-satisfied and pompous if not sycophantic towards the man Maharaji. Whatsmore I often see that the lives of these people does not often shine quite so brightly as their soaring poetic words which almost seem like the noisy beating of a hollow vessel. I prefer more prosaic honest human expressions generally these days.

For all the glorious experiences many premie poets proclaim , I have seen that their highly devotional poems are not always born out in reality. Its sad but true - again I cite Kahlil Gibrahn as an example of someone who wrote wonderful sounding poems and appeared to have great insight but whom in his actual daily life was a bizarre obsessive regarding sex and who died a hopeless alcoholic. You cannot always relate what you hear people say unfortunately to their own actual behaviour.

The biblical words 'By their deeds ye shall know them' has a ring of truth here.

Incidently I have another very poetic friend -who is as high as a kite on meditation and his devotional beliefs -he is currently in jail for 2 years for drugs. Of course drugs play their part in all this. If Dettmers is to be believed, even Maharaji was high on Bhang and dope some of the time. He certainly more sinisterly suggests that he was influenced by alcohol daily. No-one is beyond the bad effects of alcohol.

I sense that we are going to see everybody reap the rewards of their attitudes , beliefs and life-styles and that it will become glaringly obvious in time who has pursued the healthiest course.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 02:28:03 (GMT)
From: Maurice
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Truth and Lies.
Message:
Very well put Patrick, embellishing the so called truth by these junked out poets is sickening , the most I can get from the rap is the insideous way it borrows supposed mystical experiences in words from others, and reinflates them for self glorification and arse licking to the fucking moron they see as divine. So they colour up their words with trashy allusions to what they think he will give them brownie nose points for in eternity. , They are mostly soap sud advertisements for a product that not only wipes arse and rim ,it also makes them in their sad deluded state feel they are experiencing a full frontal on the exposing my arse to the Divine m. who will not even look at the thing or read it, if he can read. So the effort goes unnoticed and is read by other cult suckers that share the same beliefs and wallow in the words , feeling all gushy and make ready to to write some piece of shit of their own, in a like manner.M.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 23:19:27 (GMT)
From: Maurice
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: The Winter Solstice Lies Within.
Message:
Lucky old Cinders, she has at last awoken to her Prince Charmin', Poor old bugger, he sounds like the old Knolly just triggered a Manic High, I don't suppose Ole Margi will be around to kiss him when he nosedives. Even Santa gets a look in on this one, I suppose his little divine helpers are not too far behind either. The Winter Solstice definately lies within, poor bastard got his nose up someones back passage as well, dirty business, all this poetic juice flowing all over a nice clean Darshan Lineup, still each to his own.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 22:37:01 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: \
To: JHB
Subject: Has He completely lost his marbles?
Message:
Puts Old Nanak in the halfpenny place. I feel he has had a bit of influence from there all the same.
It sounds kind of groovy until I remember the duality it involves....What a business to keep up says I.

Give me the wisdom of uncertainty any day.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 02:44:28 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: ELK posters' wishful thinking and fear
Message:
I've written this kind of drivel myself about two years ago when I first started to really have doubts in Mr R's abilities. It was wishful thinking on my part - trying to drum up the old gopi feeling which was withering on the vine.

As Patrick said in the post above, the premies are also afraid of M and a lot of this ''poetry'' is simply grovelling and brown-nosing. Probab;y also a way of proving your devotion to the other premies.

Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:02:15 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: Yes I've got some embarassing ...
Message:
...shit around somewhere, unless I had the sense to throw it out. Gopi poems, oh, yes. But I'm sure there's some tapes of some of the worst of my songs floating around there somewhere.

I think they are important in the sense that it is possible to recover from what appeared to be irreparable brain damage. Also, everyone can know that I can't larf too hard. Poor Milky!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:09:45 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I'll show you my embarassing gopi stuff
Message:
if you show me yours. Maybe your devotional songs were composed in a gopi state but your voice said torchsinger.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:45:50 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: I'll show you my embarassing gopi stuff
Message:
The voice never lies -- it's not controlled by my wacky ideas (i.e. the words that get tacked on to the sound).

Maybe we can have a poetry reading at Latvian night! (Not a long one tho.) Those who don't have their own can borrow a few from the EV website. Now I know why MJ never got a website. The sincere premies are the worst advertisement he could probably imagine. And the girls and boys cain't hep themselves.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:55:15 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: The guru hates that embarassing gopi stuff
Message:
even if some of it is truly sincere. The only demonstration of love that he really wants is a gift of money.

No, no poetry at Latvian night. I would have to get too drunk to participate. But how about some of your new songs?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:07:51 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: If I get myself to practice! n/t
Message:
rawfat
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:14:15 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Please sing ''Lila'' Francesca
Message:
I blame that song for sucking me into the cult and I still love it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 23:37:49 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: That was Polly Bolton, not me ...
Message:
I never sang that song. She wrote it also. Her voice is awesome on it and it is one of the songs that helped suck me in as well. I have not seen her since the later 70s in LA, although we used to be roommates and bandmates. I am guessing that it would give her the absolute creeps to think about those early 70s days, but what do I know. She was recording for a while in England. Polly Bolton Band The site is old, though, and hasn't been updated for quite a while. Still there's information on what she's been up to. I think she has an organic farm.

Geez I keep getting the credit for everything around here! Maybe we all sounded alike or at least gave the listener that impression, while we wafted seamlessly through the various communities?? A scary thought!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:47:17 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: singer
Message:
Who sang 'Peace Now' with Blue Aquarius?
A nice voice.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 05:03:25 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: X
Subject: Polly Bolton also n/t
Message:
rawfat
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 02:03:45 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Polly Bolton/Lila
Message:
I knew the original recording was not you. Polly has a high soprano and you're almost a low mezzo. I just heard it sung by so many people over the years and I never was up on the cult musicians.

The only mention Polly makes of her cult days is: ''Then I went to America to work with Blue Aquarius, who were a big soul/jazz crossover band.'' I wonder if she knows how much influence that song had.

When I first came to SF over 20 years ago I told you about listening to a tape of your music a lot while living in Durban and you gave me a copy. It was stolen in a burglary when I lived in the Haight.

What are the names of some of those songs? I bet some other cult historians and music lovers would like to know too.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 06:43:54 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: The basement tapes
Message:
I have put those tapes where the sun don't shine

Seriously, they are away somewhere, what I have left of them. It is kind of twisted stuff.
I'll dig them up and post them, or at least send the names to you
I'm not sure what tape you were listening to in Durban.
Circa what year again? I don't have any really old tapes -- I think all the ones I have were made between 1980 - 1984 in SF.

The old tapes were made before tape duplicating equipment was readily available. I lent them to premies who never returned them.

I don't know if you remember the 'LA Premies' tape with the songbook (about 1978?). My song 'Up on the Hill' was on there, and I sang Dick Parke's song 'Only for Love' with our premie band, and we also did some other songs, as well as other premies in the community. I don't have a copy of that tape either.

A lot of the songs were passed around from premie to premie if they weren't recorded. 'Looking in My Lover's Eyes' was sung by other premies once they heard it. A friend from Ireland originally thought that someone in their community had written it because she used to sing it all the time over there.

There was a tape we made in Berkeley when you lived in SF, Karen Kirschbaum, Mark Pickell (Ivan), Lynn Hilliard, me and some others. A lot of the songs were Karen's. It was called 'The Beggars.' Karen and I sang her great gopi bondage duet 'Make Me The Dust of Your Feet.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:27:58 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: The basement tapes - thanks Francesca
Message:
I am so ignorant about any singing other than Maria Callas and Ella Fitzgerald that I may have even made a mistake about the tape that I listened to in Durban in 76-77. It's just that when I first heard you sing in SF in 78 I fell in love with you and your voice.

I would still live to hear you singing some classics like ''Summertime'' from Porgy and Bess or ''Fish gonna Swim'' from Show Boat. If you sing those at Latvian night you will see me crying in my beer.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:53:26 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Uh, Patrcik
Message:
''Fish gonna Swim'' from Show Boat.

Really, any self-respecting homosexual knows show tunes and that one from Showboat is entitled: 'Can't Stop Lovin that Man of Mine.' Fish gonna swim? Honestly. :)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 23:12:01 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Uh, Joe it's better than sperm gonna swim
Message:
in Mahar-jism.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 17:18:28 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Gimme That Old Time Religion
Message:
Maharaji in Oxnard
For his first address of the new year, Maharaji spoke at an event in Oxnard, California on January 14, 2001. “I’d like to wish everyone a happy New Year. And now, I can talk about what can make it happy. Because when it really comes down to it, it’s one breath, it’s one existence and it’s one understanding.” — Maharaji

There are no words in the English language to describe the type of deterioration of language this type of 'teaching' represents. And they use this as an ad. How does the EVI Ltd. webmaster function in life if their English has deteriorated to the point where they don't see how ridiculous this shit looks?

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:52:32 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Report From The Front
Message:
Saw above-mentioned Oxnard video event today. Don't think anybody cares but if somebody does, I will answer questions - prefer specific ones. My previous several reports have been similar and have been ignored as far as responses are concerned.

Let's just say there were over forty people and I was the last one out of the hotel. A former DLM national hq person said to me as he left the hotel - 'everyone else has left'. I stood up and said 'I guess the last one out turns off the lights'. I think I heard him chuckle.

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 09:51:26 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Steve, just because no one responds...
Message:
.... doesn't mean you've been ignored!

40 sounds quite a lot for a video event. The last time I attended a video event was a few years ago in London, and 40 would have been a good turnout. Probably they only get about 10 these days:-)

Keep up the good work!

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:25:28 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: They Asked Me If I Wanted To Do Service!
Message:
When I asked the person which service they had in mind, they responded 'let's have a coffee some time - I'm good at finding the right service for the person'. I said thanks but I'll pass right now.

This is the same person that wished me 'Happy Birthday' on December 10 when they were greeting people at the door. Everybody funny - yo funny too.

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 16:53:04 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I Met Someone You May Know
Message:
I got to meet Prentice Uchida. What's he up to now?

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 17:18:00 (GMT)
From: CultbusterUK
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Great News from EV!
Message:
From their daily satsang email:-

Next week's Elan is 'Introductory'!
Many readers are choosing appropriate issues of Elan, either daily
or weekly, to send to friends, colleagues or family. In recognition
of this trend, next Friday, 9th February, sees the first 'Elan'
specially produced to introduce people to Maharaji's message.
The excerpts from Maharaji's presentations will be from
introductory or 'preparing for Knowledge' events, and the editorial
will give information on how people can learn more, including a
hyperlink to EV websites.

If the issue is a success, we plan to go ahead with a monthly
introductory edition of Elan.

I suppose success is defined by how many new aspirants come as a result of premies forwarding the introductory emails.

But can you really imagine 'Many readers are choosing appropriate issues of Elan, either daily
or weekly, to send to friends, colleagues or family'
? Sending to colleagues? I'd imagine most premies keep their cult activity well hidden from their colleagues!

CBUK

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 16:48:21 (GMT)
From: Will
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rich premies 'Buying their heaven'
Message:
From what I read here, rich premies that make big donations get invited to the residence, on the yacht, get front row seats at programs, and what else? They are probably in their late forties or fifties, and see the end coming up. M talks a lot about ONE lifetime ONE chance, DEATH is always lurking close by, and other scare tactics. So rich premies dig into their deep pockets and try to buy themselves a good after life. Or maybe they think they are doing some good to the world by giving to m. That's right, donating huge funds to a millionaire cult leader is really helpful. They're probable self centered, mean and insecure. Their wealth has bought them comfort and luxuries in life, now they think they can buy god and their future heaven.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:50:46 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rich premies 'Buying their heaven'
Message:
I know a couple of rich premies who have only become rich in the last couple of years.They used to be nice people but the money has gone to their heads and now they think they are better than the rest(cringe)They get invited to things like the rich delegates thing at Amaroo last year.They do not speak to lowly premies any more,they are too good for that.They have met with m on several occasions and their egos just keep growing.Jesus I am glad I am out.That sort of spiritual ego makes me feel ill on the stomach.Actuaaly,I should thank these people because seeing their arrogance helped me open my eyes a little more to the facade of the cult

Aussi Ji (flat out like a lizard drinkin')

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 05:34:05 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Rich patronizing PWKs
Message:
The last straw was when the church-ladies assumed that I was one of them because I've got a business. The night before I posted here for the first time I said to my partner: ''We could be with those shits on the yacht if we wanted to. The PWKs are like scientologists now. It's all about money.'' Quite upset my democratic nature and here I am.

Just read your newly posted Journey and it has inspired to write mine. It also showed me I can keep it simple and I hdobn't have to delve into every little detail.

Jeezuz, Aus, the moonies? Well, I guess you were a real searcher.

I nearly joined the hare Krishnas about six months before I got K I was that desperate..

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 09:23:00 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: Rich patronizing PWKs
Message:
I sought out the moonies after I got k,I got my sequence of events a bit arse up.I was going through a battle with my mind a couple of years after getting k so I heard the moonies gave you 12 lessons and the last of the 12 was the secret of all secrets.They even let me hurry up procedings by doing 2 lessons a day!So in 6 days i was going to be enlightened.What was the big secret??????? Rev sun ming moon or whatever his fucking name was,was the messiah!Oh shit,no kidding.goodbye.See you all in the funny farm.So that was my only dealings with them.I invited one of the more sane moonies around to the premie house that I was living in at the time .It had a huge picture of the lard in the window and when he saw that he said,'I cannot come into this house as the devil resides here'That's brainwashing for you.
Cheers Aussi Ji.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 08:05:57 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: To Aussi: RE Moonies
Message:
Hi Aussi Ji
When I was the propogation co-ordinator in Leeds(UK), I once met a moonie who lived in moonie-house near our ashram.
We became friends and I was invited to their hose on 'God's day'.
Anyway to cut a long story short, the friendship we struck up was really a cover-up for the fact that we wanted to convert each other.
Well , I won and he became a premie.

My (rhetorical) question is did I do him a favour?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 08:57:22 (GMT)
From: Aussi ji
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: To Jethro.At the moment it would appear
Message:
that you did'nt do him a favour,but on the other hand if you had become a moonie then what?(also a rhetorical question)Ps.Tell me you weren't offended by my asking if you were related to uncle Jed.I thought it was a good joke myself.Somone got the shits with me and asked what my name was,so I told them Ellie may of cours

Cheers Jethro.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 21:11:36 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Moonism v Mahara-jism
Message:
Out of the frying pan and into the fire. I think you did him a favor, Jethro, because I'm sure you injected your satsang with you own concepts and hopefully those concepts sowed the seeds of later doubt and intellectual growth. I hope.

I never met a Moony who's IQ was larger than the size of their shoes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:13:57 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Moonism v Mahara-jism
Message:
Yes, I felt exteremely guilty at the time because I ate scrambled eggs at the Moonie house, but told myself it was ok because I was doing it in the name of propagation.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 23:03:37 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Jethro, guilty for eating eggs
Message:
The day that I ''got Knowledge'' in 73 I went out and ate fish and chips because I had just been told that I had to be vegetarian. This despite the fact that I had been a veg for 5 years already and actually found the fish a bit slimy.

We were also told by Mata Ji to stop having sex with our spouses so me and mine went and bought some hash and made whoopee like rabbits. I just hope any suckers that I ''brought to Knowledge'' picked up on my renegade ways. The two with whom I am still in contact are now exes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 23:54:26 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Jethro, guilty for eating eggs
Message:
I 'got k', divorced my wife, became vegetarian,stopped smoking and experienced nicotene withdrawel, was celebate for about 9 years,bcame a fanatical 'holy-namer', re-lost my virginity thanks to a lovely nurse who I was helping overcome cocaine-addiction, brought her to the lotus-feet, she got 'k'(via jagdoe yemach shmi vezichronow),she never got much into it and eventually married the son of some old Rajneeshers.Woops I'd better stop.

Got to go now as I have just sacked my solicitor and I have to represent myself tomorrow morning. I hate the fucking British legal system.

Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 10:30:37 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Aussie, one man's satan is another man's savior
Message:
Creepy isn't it? Aren't you glad that you don't need a savior? Aren't you glad that you don't have to be saved? Aren't you glad that you can spend yourself? Let's be reckless and not save ourselves and just splurge, grandpa. I'm jealous. I longed to have grand kids but mine hasn't coughed up yet.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 09:03:41 (GMT)
From: aussi ji
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: Aussie, one man's satan is another man's savior
Message:
G,day Pat,
A resounding YES to all that you said.Having a granddaughter is beautiful.I hope yours cough up soon.
Cheers Aussi Ji
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 23:32:08 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Will
Subject: Rawat's scam is truly democratic .....
Message:
.... that's the beauty of it .

An infinite experience for all .

The class war is just a sideshow.

The betrayer doesn't give a fuck where you sit , & the sitters believe the same as you & I once did .

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 16:51:42 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Will
Subject: Just like the 'Indulgences' of the Catholic
Message:
Just like the 'Indulgences' of the Catholic Church that Martin Luther rebelled against!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 12:04:46 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: dante's inferno-the 9th circle reserved a ..
Message:
special place for corrupt figures of the church who did that. they were stuffed face down into tight holes, on top of those who had done likewise before them, and were then crammed down further by those who arrived after them. this was their fate for the rest of eternity. i recommend rereading that passage with glee.
you are quite right about the parallell to selling indulgences. ' sin all you want. by contributing all this wealth to the great mother church, you are forgiven and even sought out for your backing'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 05:58:29 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: mostly musing
Message:
It took my father a stint in the military to realize the mormons
were perhaps not the latter day saints as claimed and sole standard bearers of the truth. As a result of his awakening I had the fortune of growing up an athiest,and or at least agnostic.
I now feel twice as stupid to have fallen for the miragee shell
game. In retrospect I see how my vulnerabilities were heightend
about the time of meeting rawat.(romantic young searcher, just
divorced, heart aching for the TRUTH.) It was Tucson, Az. 1978,I watched people exiting a darshan line and saw something going on
which was intriguing, I heard the charismatic gooroo talk about his perfect knowledge... Nine months of voluntary indoctrination
later I receive k and have been a plodding foot soldier ever since. Yes, I stuffed my sensibilities, aesthetics, and personal
preferences for the greater good of the mission... I did not join the ashram nor would I have been welcome with child support payments as worldly baggage. I tithed to the church just like a good mormon is to do and followed the leader, who in turn promised
riches within( his pockets.)
My own dissatisfaction was glaring, and I took his advice to be true to thine self, and listen to my heart. I was sick of working
my ass off for those flawless events ( yes thelma, helping church ladies with white tablecloths, being the vigilent security guard at the drinking fountain, maintaining statistics of fresh fatted calves.) fuck this shit, I really had no more money for the endless fundraisers. I no longer got goosepimples hearing about wadi's new birthday jaguar, or his latest feat of precision and logic at the controls of his plane.
I wanted to comment on a post from postie last week about heightend experiences which have been attributed to miragee, as I
think this type of atribution kept me and others from walking earlier on.I wanted to reccomend a classic which I have just been perusing and speaks specifically to this.' the varieties of religious experience' by William James. This was a series a lectures given in 1900-02 by James who was the pre-eminant psychologist of the day. It is very thorough and gives a good perspective to all such experiences- ( Gee- other people have peak experiences which they attribute to their particular cult..?)
In the chapter on 'conversion' it reads ' persons who have passed through conversion, having once taken a stand for the religious life, tend to feel themselves identified with it, no matter how much their religious enthusiasm declines.
I want to pay homage to the forum and all you articulate types who have helped me out of the morass of marajajajiii.
merci.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 21:56:48 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Roy
Subject: Hello Roy , we're all in the same boat .......
Message:
.....the one that turned out to be full of holes .

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 19:39:54 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Roy
Subject: mostly musing
Message:
Roy writing about William James: 'In the chapter on 'conversion' it reads ' persons who have passed through conversion, having once taken a stand for the religious life, tend to feel themselves identified with it, no matter how much their religious enthusiasm declines.'

Yes, this is the point I was driving at. I think Joe pointed out that no matter what the original experience and what or who it is attributed to, the continued seeking of, dare I say 'that experience' leads to religion. M-K-Lite is such a religion largely based on those non-ordinary experiences and how they are attributed.

In my Knowledge selection with Fakiranand in 1972, one of the typical screening questions was 'do you have any other guru?' One guy said he benefited a lot from the writings of William James. 'Not ready' came the reply from Fakiranand. So here WJ is again, 29 years later. I'll definitely read more about what he has to say. Thanks for commenting on his work.

Postie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 12:33:09 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: mostly musing
Message:
In my Knowledge selection with Fakiranand in 1972, one of the typical screening questions was 'do you have any other guru?' One guy said he benefited a lot from the writings of William James. 'Not ready' came the reply from Fakiranand.

Funny but sad. I bet Fakiranand had no clue who William James even WAS. I hope the guy went back to reading William James and never received K.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 19:08:06 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Roy
Subject: Hello, Roy, I hope you continue to post
Message:
I think there are more of us (''...helping church ladies with white tablecloths, being the vigilant security guard at the drinking fountain, maintaining statistics of fresh fatted calves...'') exiting the new non-cult church than the old-timers here.

I look forward to hearing more from you and, yes, eventhough it's nearly a hundred years old, ''The Varieties of Religious Experience'' by William James (brother of Henry) is still helpful in demystifying the psychology of charismatic religions.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 18:54:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roy
Subject: Nice to hear from you, Roy
Message:
What's going on vis-a-vis you and your former cult community and all that? Hope it's not too harsh for you, friend-wise and everything.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 20:33:35 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: None
To: Jim, Anth, Conlin
Subject: Nice to hear from you, Roy
Message:
Jim, thanks for asking about my well being upon exiting. It has
(and is) going along well- my day to day association with premies
is about nil anyway, as most of my activities were within the 'service sector'.I simply stated my unavailability, and have disappeared without a trace. I found the forum a great help in the initial extracation, and continue to find it an ongoing aid in emotional and mental disentanglements. ( Anth, I've been lurking about nine months er so.)
Conlin, Yes, William James brother to Henry- who writes about the best fiction I've had opportunity to read. I hope to post again,
should I have anything interesting to report. Thanks Ya'll.
R.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 12:31:17 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Roy
Subject: Nice to hear from you, Roy
Message:
Hi Roy -
Echoing everyone else - good to hear from you. I am fond of Henry James too (but only his earlier novels - I still haven't been able to read through the later ones.)

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 01:48:40 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Roy
Subject: Roy, anyone who enjoys Henry James has my full
Message:
attention. The forum is a bit like reading William Burroughs. I hope you can pick the jewels out of the slag.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 01:58:03 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: Roy, anyone who enjoys Henry James has my full
Message:
It has become more labor intense of late. Oh well,
a jewel is a jewel.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 02:49:45 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Roy
Subject: Henry James
Message:
Yes, I've become lazier too and prefer sitting through a movie of a James' tome and making myself feel superior by indulging in pedantic criticism of the director's lack of understanding.

I'm just happy that you indulged your 'mind' by reading such demanding stuff. Kept the old grey cells from turning into complete divine mush.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:20:10 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Conlon/Roy/Katie
Subject: Henry James
Message:
And don't forget Edith Wharton, James' American novelist friend, whose fiction is also GREAT.

'Wings of a Dove' (the film of James' novel) was great!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:43:45 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, thanks for movie review OT/NS
Message:
It's on my list when it comes out on video. Now wasn't Edith also an American expat in UK? At least for a while.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:08:41 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: he's my favorite horn player, too nt
Message:
trumpet, wasn't it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 13:05:50 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Roy
Subject: Good Morning Tuscon.
Message:
Hi Roy,

Good to see you on the forum this rainy Sunday morning in Holland. Are you someone who has been lurking for a while?

I was at the Tuscon programme. After the premie thing, there was a conference, where I believe Maharaji said, 'I've taken you so high now, if you fall you will shatter into a thousand pieces and never be able to be put together again.'

What a load of bullshit that was.

All it took was two bits of selotape.

Now I'm as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain as right as rain.

lamron eht htna

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 09:34:24 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Roy
Subject: Congratulations Roy!
Message:
and be gentle with yourself. Waking up from the Matrix can be a little confronting:-)

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 04:07:45 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Well I am all alone here now...
Message:
My roomy has split and left me with this pad all to myself. Oh well. I am down to 2 premie friends, and they are fence sitters. They monitor this site frequently and are appalled by some of the discoveries that I point out to them. But they are relatively new premies, by this Forum's standards. They have had K for only 12-15 years, and were never in Ashrams or never were asked to serve, so they really don't count. They do keep me abreast of the videos and the declining numbers participating. They have cut down to about 4 nights a week at one place and 2 nights at another.

The only ones talking of going to Amaroo are the oldies. I hope they enjoy it. It is certainly a long way to go to listen to a broken record. 'What you are searching for, is inside of you'. 'You are born and then you die, in the middle of that time you live.' There, I have just saved you a few thousand dollars.

Enjoy the Outback all of you Premie Lurkers, don't drink the Cool-aid, it is made of the water that they washed his feet with, after hundreds of people put there lips on them. Worse than any poisonous snake in the outback. G'day.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 05:42:33 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Well I am all alone here now...
Message:
jondon:

The only ones talking of going to Amaroo are the oldies. I hope they enjoy it. It is certainly a long way to go to listen to a broken record. 'What you are searching for, is inside of you'. 'You are born and then you die, in the middle of that time you live.' There, I have just saved you a few thousand dollars.

That really tickled my funny bone for some reason. Good one. If they're going to Amaroo tell them to rent a 4WD in Brisbane and drive up the coast to Fraser Island. Go over on the ferry, and take a mad dash down the beach at 100 km/hr for 120km to beat the tide. Sit on the headland and watch the sharks and rays. Play with the dolphins. Skip the guru.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 23:33:03 (GMT)
From: al-ex
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: dont count
Message:
What do you mean by 'they really dont count'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 00:18:48 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: al-ex
Subject: dont count
Message:
Well, In the premie hierarchy, there are those who sit in front and those who sit close to the front, then those who know somebody who sits in the front or close to the front, then those who sit in the back and know someone who knows someone who sits in the front or close to the front, then there are my two surviving premies who sit in the back, fillers if you will. But they have not been called to fill seats for M, they are just there, I do not believe in the eyes of M that they count for much. They certainly do not donate (show gratitude). So if it came down to 2 seats left and 4 people wanting to get in, and 2 of the people show gratitu$e, who will get in?

I guess what I mean is that they do not count as anythig important to the one person that is all so important to them. They should be joining the ranks of the ex's sometime soon. Their postings here should count for something, if not just a place to let off steam.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:48:20 (GMT)
From: al-ex
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: dont count
Message:
Thanks-I,m a dont count to but glad i,m wising up to the fat sod.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 12:49:01 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: you still have tv jondon
Message:
hi jondon,

my sympathies and condolonces on the loss of your premie friends. I have lost a few myself. I can only hope they'll come back one day and say, 'Sorry. I was in a bloody cult. You and the other 5,999,900 people who quit were right after all.'

The rest of you post really made me laugh out loud. Then I read it out loud and it made Dot and Marianne laugh out loud too. It's good to see you've still got your sense of humour.

I hope those old timers who fork out $AUS900 to walk through the gate and $2000 to sleep in the barracks have a sense of humour too.

Still, they were right about one thing. They are finally getting close to their Lord and Master- everyone in the first 1500 rows has quit, so they can sit nearer the front.

Anth It was all a dream.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 00:25:06 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: you still have tv jondon
Message:
Thanks. I believe that my roomy will come back one day and rekindle the friendship. There were no hard feelings, just resentment. Resentment that I am blind and hooked into this cult of negativity aimed at a man that brings peace to the world. Gee, haven't seen him in the local paper offering aid to the victims of the earthquake in his Motherland. He is flying about in his GV, and sipping Courvosier on the back of his yacht whilst having blonde premies shuttled in to do service. Don King said it best 'Only in America'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 13:26:05 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: As Abbie Hoffman said...
Message:
'If Guru Maharaji is God,then maybe America has got the God it deserves.'

Anth the quote

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 19:20:48 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Religious intolerance - an issue to address
Message:
This site appears to have some remarkable ideas and insights that, on first perusal, are very relevant to the issue of why we got suckered into a cult like the Maha's in the first place.

I hope that everyone who reads it will be inspired to post on the issues they think are relevant to us all, whether as ex-premies or premies. It's a large resource, I haven't had time to absorb all of it, doubt if I ever will, and hence call for everyone's feedback on it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 21:50:08 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: scary article
Message:
Is she saying we should in the name of political correctness look the other way when someone we care about is recruited into a cult, coerced and perhaps even found missing? If the local authorities share the author's attitude where would a concerned parent turn?
The article is very simplistic and yet also frightening to me.
I wonder how she'd feel if someone close to her became a true believer?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 17:53:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: What a stupid article!
Message:
Here's the article. What a doozy. I guess we have to be careful we don't lynch Maharaji like we do blacks. Or vice versa or something. No, this entire essay is stupid. It misses the point at every turn.

Religious Intolerance--not 'Cults'--Is the Problem

by Catherine Wessinger

A T THE END OF JUNE 1994 Time magazine came under criticism for altering O. J. Simpson's mug shot to make his skin appear darker and then using that altered photo on its cover. African Americans rightly pointed out that this Time cover promoted racism by perpetuating the stereotype that dark-skinned men, particularly African-American men, commit violent crimes. Most people, however, do not realize that much of the news reporting on alternative religions perpetuates prejudice by labeling them 'cults.' Nor do most people realize that the current popular use of the word 'cult' is pejorative and expresses religious prejudice. Racism is the belief that certain races are better than other races. Sexism is the belief that one sex is better than the other. Homophobia is heterosexual prejudice against gays and lesbians. These forms of prejudice are widely recognized. We need to realize that there is also religious prejudice, the belief that certain religions are legitimate and other religions are not. The recognition of all forms of prejudice is important, because prejudice dehumanizes the stigmatized group so that violence against its members becomes socially acceptable.

Many news reports and discussions of alternative religions are guilty of gross simplification and of spreading fear by lumping together many different types of religions and calling them 'cults.' Not uncommonly, very diverse groups such as the Branch Davidians, Jews for Jesus, Church Universal and Triumphant, the Unification Church (Moonies), the Hare Krishnas, Bible study circles, Ramtha devotees, meditation and yoga classes, UFO believers, and Santerí a initiates get branded with the label 'cult.' Persons affiliated with the anti-cult movement want us to believe that there are hundreds of cults (illegitimate religions) threatening to snatch up and brainwash unsuspecting young, middle-aged, and elderly persons. But the only thing these groups have in common is the prejudice directed against them by the wider public.

The theory of brainwashing that is advocated by the anti-cult movement has been rejected by the two academic and professional associations competent to evaluate the theory. The American Psychological Association and the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion reject the theory that a religious group can brainwash its members and reduce them to uncritical zombies. Further, the methods used by alternative religions are not significantly different from recruitment methods used by mainstream religions. Christian denominations send missionaries to non-Christian countries to convert people; Christian evangelists hold revivals so unconverted people can be 'born again'; all Christian denominations instruct their children and young people in Sunday Schools, Bible schools, and catechism.

It has not been long ago that white Americans acting in mobs seized and lynched black men. No one today would justify mob execution without due process of the law. When the news media portray African Americans in a way that perpetuates racial stereotypes, nowadays, the African-American community is well organized and socially accepted enough to voice a protest that will be heard by white Americans.

But the unreasoning prejudice against religions that are perceived as not being mainstream is still not widely questioned. When the news media vilify a religious group and its leader, no one outside the group notices or cares. When unnecessary and dangerous force is used against a nonmainstream group, the prejudiced assumption is that they deserved what happened to them.

We know that prejudice motivates violence. Prejudice condoned the lynching of black men, saying that they got what they deserved. Prejudice against women condones and sanctions wife-beating as 'a family matter.' Where there is prejudice against women, a woman who has been raped will be judged and condemned more than her attacker. In cases of wife-beating or rape, prejudice says that the woman got what she deserved. Prejudice against religions condones unnecessarily aggressive actions against a group that results in deaths of innocent children, women, and men.

The word 'cult,' which formerly referred to an organized system of worship, is now a term that slanders any religion that you don't know about and don't like. The term 'cult' is pejoratively applied to many different types of groups, and its use dehumanizes people, and thus sanctions violence against them, the way 'nigger' dehumanized African Americans and sanctioned violence against them.

Without eliminating anyone's freedom of religion, it is fair for individuals to ask if a religion or worldview is healthy or not. In my opinion--and many people would disagree--any group that discourages intellectual inquiry, or encourages total obedience to an authority figure, or condones criminal activities, is probably not healthy. This is true for mainstream as well as nonmainstream groups. We know very well that child abuse, sexual abuse, abuse of authority, and coercing people to give money are found in socially accepted mainstream religions as well as in some nonmainstream groups. These problems need to be addressed in all their complexity. The answer is not in simplistically vilifying a religion and spreading religious prejudice based on inaccurate stereotypes.

The two separate government assaults in 1993 against the Branch Davidian community that resulted in over 80 deaths demonstrate that religious prejudice poses a greater danger to the lives of ordinary people than the alternative religions that are pejoratively termed 'cults.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:09:58 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: As if religious tolerance could be anything but?
Message:
Yeah Jim, for sure. Religious tolerance - stupid idea.


.
.
.

(just thank your stars that your own ashram didn't become like David Koresh's - and who's to say that couldn't have happened? - or would you have preferred it that way?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 02:24:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Not too sure what you're talking about (are you?)
Message:
You're really confusing me here, Chris. Yes, the ashram could have become like Koresh's and no, I wouldn't have preferred that. So what's your point?

Listen, if you want to argue with someone over where to draw the line between cults and bona fide religions, you're talking to the wrong man. I do think they're all in the same bag, some only deeper in then others. Any system of thought that force feeds ideas and tries to get people to swallow them by making them faith-flavoured exploits people. Some are worse than others.

The article's stupid, in my opinion, because it adresses the problem from the wrong end. If there's no clear delineation between cults and other groups, it says, maybe they're all not so bad? Try turning it upside down, I say.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 19:45:27 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: choice bits (between unexceptional sentiments)
Message:
some choice bits among the politically loaded (and exploitative) verbiage:

We need to realize that there is also religious prejudice, the... belief that certain religions are legitimate and other religions are not.

Yeah, sure.

But the only thing these groups have in common is the prejudice directed against them by the wider public.

Oh, really? Checked 'em all, huh?

In my opinion--and many people would disagree--any group that discourages intellectual inquiry, or encourages total obedience to an authority figure, or condones criminal activities, is probably not healthy.

Don't call us...

Don't you just LOVE the way the author is clear and unambiguous that the ONLY thing that distuinguishes a cult is a relativistic consideration (the prevailing public attitude towards it).

The author's relativism betrays her as a cultish fellow traveller, I suggest. Certainly a fully paid-up member of the counter-enlightenment (much the same thing, given its sloppy relativism); and, sadly an apologist for cultish mind-control.

And this in the name of humanity and the fight against oppression.

Sheesh!

JohnT
- This statement is false! (Unless you feel otherwise)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:53:22 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: cultish fellow traveller I was, John, (not you?)
Message:
Just to take those 'choice bits' for starters -

'We need to realize that there is also religious prejudice, the... belief that certain religions are legitimate and other religions are not'.

The point here being: if it's crazy to believe that (for example) Jim Jones was divine, then why is it any the less crazy to believe that (for example) the Pope is divine?

.
.
.

' But the only thing these groups have in common is the prejudice directed against
them by the wider public'

What else do they have in common then, John?
.
.
.

'In my opinion--and many people would disagree--any group that discourages
intellectual inquiry, or encourages total obedience to an authority figure, or
condones criminal activities, is probably not healthy.'

You say in response to that: 'don't call us' - which I take to mean you agree entirely with the sentiments expressed. No?

.
.
.


The ONLY thing that distinguishes a cult is WHAT? - that it's beliefs go against current thinking? But what if current thinking is a product of cultic belief? Ourobouros here, John.
.
.

You also suggest that the author of the article is an 'apologist for cultist mind-control' - and if I disagree with you John, does that make me another apologist for your attempt at 'cultic mind control' -

But your expression of your opinion is far from being 'cultic mind control', isn't it, John? I think so. I hope so.

So when does persuading someone of your opinion become an attempt at mind-control? When it becomes unchallengable? Surely, if it's got that far, it's become a so-called 'legitimate' belief-system?

.
.
.

If you were a leader of an apostate sect, (and god knows, the established religions could do with SOME waking up) that's precisely how your opinions would be labelled - as apostate, and as attempts at mind-control (although, in ordinary English, you would simply be attempting to persuade people to accept your opinion.)

My suggestion is to look at the article from a different angle - an angle where the word 'cult' doesn't hold quite as many bad associations.

for sure the Maha's world is a cult. But then ... isn't any society's?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:48:43 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: towards a definition of cults
Message:
cq: for sure the Maha's world is a cult. But then ... isn't any society's?

Nope.

I mean, yeah, depends what you mean. Seriously, my dictionary does indeed define the word cult in an ordinary religious way, a specific system of religious worship. Perhaps the closest my dictionary gets to the meaning the term receives here is intense interest in and devotion to a person idea or activity. The person, idea etc. arousing such devotion.

I think though, when people talk of cult-busting (for example) they mean more than breaking up philatalists' conventions, or trying to shut down Top of the Pops. Nor do they always have in mind to attack all or any religion. And such people are not necessarily hypocrites or fools.

Alarm bells ring over personality cults. That is, when an intense interest in a person gets mixed up with a system of ... worship. In Britain, rather recently, the intense interest in Diana Windsor (nee Spencer) threatened, after her death, to morph into a system of worship, with shrines and altars improvised and grander models proposed.

Rawat's business model takes both those elements and goes further yet. It is a model based on mind-control in that the punters do not know what they are buying into. The beliefs of Rawautism are not placed on the table, but are something that becomes clearer as one gets deeper into the cult. So with Scientology, as well. Not so with the Catholic Church! The catechisms, Papal Infallibility, the Virgin Birth, whatever. It's all out in the open.

So, nope, it's not all a cult. We can use the word in quite a precise technical sense. And in that sense, the Catholic Church is not a cult, but Rawautism most certainly is.

Or so it seems to me.

JohnT
- never a premie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:42:12 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: towards a definition of cults - a wider one?
Message:
I do get your drift, John, but I would say this:

Just because the various churches (of all religions - my reference to the Catholic church was not intended to be exclusive of the others) - just 'cause they've been around a long time and have woven themselves into the fabric of society doesn't change the fact that the behaviour and belief-systems they encourage have many parallels with cultic behaviour. They foster similar systems of dependency as modern cults too. In fact, when they started they were cults, no doubt about it!

So when does an 'orthodox' religion really stop being a cult? - that was the idea I was getting at.

Found this quote recently; it might be apt:

'When a religion has become an orthodoxy, its day of inwardness is over; the spring is dry, the faithful live at second hand exclusively and stone the prophets in their turn. The new church, in spite of whatever human goodness it may foster, can be henceforth counted on as a staunch ally in every attempt to stifle the spontaneous religious spirit, and to stop all later bubblings of the fountain from which in purer days it drew its own supply of inspiration...'
- Williams James

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 21:05:21 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Thanks cq and William James NT
Message:
f
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:18:48 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Religious intolerance - an issue to address
Message:
Just had a quick look at the religiuos intolerance article on the site. First impressions- I agree that the word 'cult' can be bandied about to cover intolerance and that small religious groups are not necessarily dangerous. I don't agree that brainwashing does not happen. Brainwashing is an emotive word, but it is just a word. it is obvious here that many of us have in retrospect called M's trip 'brainwashing'. This is because people have a tendency to be affected by the company they keep (obvious point) and when we were all in exclusive premie-world, that whole trip is what we were constantly exposed to. You are what you do. And being impelled to sit 5/6 nights a week as an aspirant for 17 months absorbing all the warped crap from the poor premies in order to be allowed to receive K has had a pretty weird affect on my ability to think as an independent person
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:02:06 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Religious intolerance - an issue to address
Message:
As far as that article I linked to goes, I think I responded (some might say over-reacted) to the idea that those who have been caught up in a cult don't necessarily deserve to be treated with the same disdain/disgust as the cult-leader(s) deserve (if indeed that is what they do deserve).

Let me put this clearly - I don't hate premies for having fallen in love with the Maha. (I did the same once). What I do hate is how the intolerance I feel for their so-called 'master' can be so easily mis-directed against people who are still enamoured of him.

But that's for me to deal with.

(hence the reason for posting the link)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 03:06:08 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: moldy warp
Subject: Religious intolerance - an issue to address
Message:
for some reason, I was an aspirant from 1971 till '78 when I got k. Some of thid time, I lived where there was not a community, but if there was I was there most nites. Just saying- I can also see how a lot of people were very brainwashed by the time they actually received k. I think that was the idea. I didn't have to wait that long- mainly geographical problems. However , when I really got serious, I still had to wait 12 months. 12 months of satsang 7 nites a week- so I think I was ripe to accept anything by then.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 21:50:09 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: god aint worth all the trouble he causes
Message:
If there was a god that really cared about how we thought of it, by 2001+, surely by now we would all be able to agree on some basics about that issue.

But NO, even in the smallest church, everyone has thier own version or twist and does battle over any and all issues with those in the same chuch.

Really, the god clearly, by design (if you will), doesnt care much about what we think!

If there is a god, it is not as advertised.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:20:15 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Bingo Bill!!
Message:
'If there is a god, it is not as advertised.'

That's great! :-)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:33:12 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stonor and Bill
Subject: Yes, great quote, Bill :)!(nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 04:58:59 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: OOPS! sorry god, or whatever your name is.....nt
Message:
drsh
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:04:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: just DON'T call him Maharaji! ... (nt)
Message:
ever.

again.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 21:46:35 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Religious intolerance - an issue to address
Message:
Do you think our verbal attacks on Maharaji and cults are signs of religious intolerance?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:26:36 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Religious intolerance - an issue to address
Message:
Hi Helen,

Have you been to AG and 'dared to click' the link above? Sir Dave posted an article about a yoga class (I assume Hatha) that was cancelled due to religious right fears of the occult. This is very sad in so many ways, especially when I don't know where my back would be at this point without my regular yoga classes and the postures I've learned. That's one of the dangers of over-reacting and/or overgeneralizing, I think - it can too often just serve as fuel for another form of 'evil'.

Anna

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 00:06:44 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Stonor, certainly you don't believe that Maharaji
Message:
isn't running a cult? Or do you?

There're lighyears ('scuse the pun) of difference between taking a ''Hatha Yoga'' class and practicing that and being a member of a bona fide cult.

I know that if you look on the cults watch type sites, you will find everything there, (well, maybe not the Catholic Church):)), but everything from AA to Depok Chopra (sp??).

Anyways, I haven't talked to you since the big blow up and I hope you are faring well and send you a hug....good discussions are, well, good, don't you think?

Love,
Cynthia

P.S. If you'd like to email me (and there's no pressure believe me) it's sylviecyn@yahoo.com

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 00:28:03 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Absolutely NOT!
Message:
So glad I caught this before I put my mac to sleep for a while!

Rawat (as Salam has taught me to call him) is DEFINITLY running a cult!!! I've learned a lot more about his, and a few others since looking into things and posting here. And I hadn't realized how much of a cult he was running before either, especially after getting a bit of soft-spin satsang from that premie email friend. I used to see bhakti-cults as just 'not for me' and didn't want to judge others, even if I was constantly alienated by others for not joining their cult. But there is a danger of playing into right-wing reactionaries if there is too much over-reaction/over-generalization. I read a book that said fanaticism is the real root of evil - no matter which end or topic.

I hope that's clear - if it isn't PLEASE let me know.

Yes, good discussions are GREAT, but not manipulating, dividing and alienating people with bogus/distorted info.

Big hugs, and I will email you sometime soon.

Anna

.

PS: Here's the page Sir Dave posted at Anything Goes. (I know you know how to get there, it's for anyone else. ;-)

Yoga leads to devil worship!

Fundamentalist Christians in Georgia successfully blocked a county-sponsored yoga class because of fears that it could lead to devil worship. The class, sponsored by the Toccoa-Stephens County Recreation Department, was canceled on August 31, after county commissioners received a number of complaints from church groups.

The man, Philip Lawrence, who 'as a Christian' opposed the class said, 'The people who are signed up for the class are just walking into it like cattle to a slaughter.' 'Half of yoga,' he said, 'is a branch of Eastern mysticism, and it has strong occult influences.' He said yoga is a form of New Age mysticism and can lead to devil worship.

Lawrence gathered support from Baptist, Lutheran and Church of God congregations.

© 1998 Institute for First Amendment Studies, Inc.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 02:19:52 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Absolutely NOT!
Message:
SOme fundamentalist Christian groups are cults, IMO. Really! All that fear about a yoga class is just so primitive. There is a fine line between religions and cults. I see religions veer over the edge into cults when they become unable to tolerate differences and different pathways. When someone says their way is the only way, and have to give up way too much to belong, and try to convert others, and have to keep their religion/cult pumped up CONSTANTLY, then I get suspicious.

I am not anti-religion as long as it (the religion)is integrated into the 'real world' and that the religion recognizes that its way is not the only way. That is really realistically the only way the human race can survive, is through tolerance and understanding. Otherwise, we're all screwed.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 16:47:55 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Absolutely NOT!
Message:
Did I ever tell you about my first boyfriend? (We held hands and necked in the park!) He went out west (25 years ago), met a born-again-Christian who was propagating, married, and stayed in touch with a few friends here in Montreal, including me. I last heard from him around this time last year and he was raving about the coming of the 'Anointed One', whose actual name, which I can't remember, my sister informed me was Jewish. He sounded even more flipped out than ever. I lost his e-mail address in the crash, or I would share his 'high' with you - did he ever sound like he was on really wild drugs! I've listened to his 'satsang' and judgements about me over the years as a mental work-out, but this new degree of hysteria really shocked me - guess this 'Anointed One' was designed to arrive around the new millenium, and keep their 'religious' fervor well fueled, or 'pumped up,' as you put it. BTW, someone here posted about a Christian 'cult' in Australia a while ago, and the parallels with all 'cults' was very clear: The Sydney Church of Christ (Part of the International Church of Christ (ICC) aka The Boston Movement)

I'm not 'anti-religion' either, despite the fact that I couldn't accept any of their dogma since an early age; I rejected 'Churchianity' before the age of ten because I could neither accept the concept of 'God' they presented, nor the idea that those who were not 'Churchian' were 'heathens' destined for Hell, whose only hope was to accept the 'Churchian' faith. My mother rejected the Church (Presbyterian - hardly extreme) when I was an early teen, because of the minister's insistence on the literal interpretation of the 'Virgin Birth.' Nonetheless, there is much in the Bible (along with many other religious/spiritual texts including non-Churchian), that has inspired and helped me through many challenges, so I could never discount the value of 'religion' in my own life, or anyone else's.

The next time I get a lift home from my yoga/meditation teacher, a 'former' devotee of Guru Amrit Desai (Kripalu), I am going to ask her more about one of her current paths - now, at 60, she is working with a Jesuit nun on visualization of the scriptures, and is very interested in the Catholic 'mystic' of the 1100's, Hildegard von Bingen, and her music.

As is often the case, Chris has raised a very interesting and complex issue.

Hope I didn't ramble too much, Helen (and I'm not even getting into the line in Chris's link, 'Flinging pejorative terms around loosely, 'cult,' 'nigger,' 'bitch' can hurt innocent people!' ;-)

Good talking with you, Helen!

Anna

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 20:13:56 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Cults, sects and such
Message:
I definitely do not believe that the word 'cult' is prejorative in the context of talkign about Maharaji, but I guess I would be offended if someone called my religion a 'cult'. I think where there is really clear evidence of people being scarred, then the word cult can be applied. But it does get tricky. Certainly I would have no qualms about calling Mormonism a 'cult' for example, although I probably would be very careful not to say that to someone who was a Mormon and who I respected very much.

Alot of religions have goofy beliefs but the people who practice them certainly are very good people. And some of the goofy beliefs are mixed with some good things. Certainly I respect those of any faith who can participate in intellectual questioning about their religion. Where questioning is verbotin is where I think some religions veer off into being cult-like.

Your old boyfriend certainly sounds off balance. I really fear these Christian sects that are like that. I think they set up sick thinking, I really do. They set people up to not know how to relate to others (except those in the sect) and they are just so damaging in so many ways. When I see people like that, I see many years of therapy ahead for them! ANd I see many worried loved ones in their lives. And I see their kids being VERY screwed up socially and sexually. Not a pretty picture.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 02:07:18 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Cults, sects and such
Message:
Hmmm ... I have another friend who is Mormon, and I've never found him particularly cultish or fanatical - he was very sociable and highly involved during the high school years when we were in everyday contact. In all the years I've known him, he has never tried to push Mormonism on me. At the same time, he has undoubtedly accepted the Mormon dogma, which I have looked into on my own out of curiousity, and some of it sounds pretty weird, I agree!

This certainly is an area that is pretty muddy - that's what I think that website is primarily about - trying to raise these issues and examine what we mean by the terms we are using. At least one of the anti-cult sites I've visited described Amway as a cult, and hamzen and I have discussed cultic aspects of many mainstream institutions, such as education, medicine, and social work. I'm curious about what Chris will say when he gets back!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:52:31 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: PS
Message:
Wrt the Mormons - there can't be many of them in Montreal compared to parts of the US. That probably has a lot to do with our different impressions. Over the years I've tried to accept that most people have a 'religion' of some sort, but I can't relate to any of them. Over the last year, I've certainly been learning a lot about some of the more 'extreme' ones and what that involves, both in practice and in recovery.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 17:39:35 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: How true!
Message:
Quoth Stonor: 'Flinging pejorative terms around loosely ... can hurt innocent people!' ;-)

I don't understand why you find this funny, Stonor. Why the smile and the wink?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 16:00:05 (GMT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Questions
Message:
Hi Michael,
It's rare these days for me to have either the time or inclination to post or read here, so I apologise if you have already answered these questions.

1. Circa 1985, Maharaji told a friend of mine who became somewhat of a confidant to Maharaji over a few years, that he, Maharaji, was thinking of giving the whole thing away.
Maharaji also said, around the same time, that he had come down off his pedestal, and even discussed some of his human foibles. At one program he said that some people close to him thought he was judgemental and arrogant.
This seems to coincide with your 'talk' with him. Did he ever express doubts to you about his mission or who he was or about its failings?

2. At Deca there was a large warehouse that stored M's unwanted stuff. I did security there a couple of times. I think there were other warehouses for the same purpose. I was told that they comprised mainly gifts from premies and that M had to keep them because they were given with devotion. The amount of stuff, much of it brand new, was astronomical. Was this really what was in the warehouses and was he keeping it because, as I was told, he treasured the devotion it was all given with?

3. Raja ji has come in for a bit of flack here at various times. I knew him a little from doing some security around him. I found him down to earth and at least he bothered to talk to me, which is more than his brother did. He spoke to me once about how his and Maharaj's children were spoilt and he was trying to change this. He would always ask if I was OK and if I needed anything. Looking back it was still very much a cult experience, but there was something a little more aware about him than his brother.
I'm curious what your perception was of him, his role and where he fits in.

4. During the Denver program in 1979 ( or it may have been just after) a double page article on Maharaji appeared in the Denver Post. It was basically an interview with Bob Mishler and it made comparisons with Jonestown. Much of it was similar to the radio interview reproduced on the ex premie site. One major difference was that the article spoke about about firearms being stored in various places and ashrams around the country. I was reading the article with some other ashram premies, and all of has having between us lived in many ashrams and never seen any firearms, we dismissed the whole article as sour grapes. Was Mishler misquoted, was he lying, or was there something we didn't know about going on?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 00:57:17 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: chr
Subject: Answers
Message:
chr,

1. Did M ever express doubts to you about his mission or who he was or about its failings?

Maharaji often reminded instructors and the people around him that he was under no obligation to spread knowledge to the world. When he made such comments, there was always an implied threat that he could simply close up shop, leaving everyone high and dry. First he created a culture of dependence, then he threatened to take away that which had become the purpose and focus of people’s lives. He usually pulled this stunt when he was dissatisfied with something or other and wanted people to make more effort and express more love and devotion to him.

During 1984, however, at a time when he and Marolyn were in the midst of their marriage difficulties, he went through a period when he was more subdued and reflective that usual. During moments when he felt sadness and vulnerability, he told me he sometimes felt like calling it quits. These moments quickly passed, however, and he carried on as though he had never spoken those words.

2. Was M keeping mainly gifts from premies in the warehouses because, as I was told, he treasured the devotion it was all given with?

Yes.

3. I'm curious what your perception was of Raja Ji, his role and where he fits in.

I know that Raja Ji has come in for a bit of flack on the Forum and I understand why. However, Raja Ji was always a friend during the time I was involved with Maharaji and, to some extent, that friendship continues to this day. When we speak, which is not often, we have agreed to focus on any and all topics other than Maharaji. Consequently, I don’t know what his current role is or where he fits in. I do know he is happily married to a wonderful woman, and that he is very proud of his two grown daughters who are on the road to establishing successful careers that have nothing whatsoever to do with Maharaji and his organization.

4. Was Mishler misquoted about firearms being stored in various places and ashrams around the country, was he lying, or was there something we didn't know about going on?

I am not aware of any firearms being stockpiled in the ashrams or anywhere else for that matter. I didn’t read the Mishler article so I can't comment on it. I do remember a conversation with Bob in which he expressed his opinion that Maharaji’s security guards at the Malibu residence should wear uniforms and be licensed to carry a side arm. Maharaji nixed the idea and it was never revived, at least during my tenure. Bill, your story about the security guy in Miami is news to me.

Michael

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 13:38:49 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: jed53@hotmail.com
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Just curious
Message:
In the late 80s prempal did an instructor training course in Penang. One of the particpants there told me that he had some disagreement with someone and made allthe candidates stand uo in a group and videod them saying 'fuck you'.

I was told this by Lee Marges, an Australian pwk, who I know to be completely honest.(I doubt that she talks to me now).
Oh yes, Lee herself refused to participate.

Anyway, I just wondered if you knew anything about this.

Jethro

PS apologies to all who have seen this before, I put this info up some time ago.

PPS to any Ozs reading this. If you see Lee or Sam Bender(her husband) please tell them to email me on the above email and not be angry with me. I see no reason why what Lee told me should not be made public. Pwk's should know the character of their leader.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 13:59:50 (GMT)
From: Put you in the picture
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Just curious
Message:
Lee is now an Instructor.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:58:13 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: jed53@hotmail.com
To: Put you in the picture
Subject: Just curious
Message:
Dear puitp

Thanks but sad to hear it.
Is Sam still sucked in?

I was really good friends with Sam before either of us became prenies. In fact Sam 'brought me to k'.

I have tried, unsuccessfully, to contact them a few times in last few years. I expect it is because I am public ex, but am surprised that at least Sam hasn't contacted me, if only to bollock me.

I find it really difficult to believe that Sam is still involved. The last time I saw him was when I visited Oz in 1993(approx) and although we were both still premies then, he had alot to say in criticism of prempal.

I realy hope he somehow contacts me.
Anyway, if anyone knows him, tell him I now have a new life-partner and am having the most incredible years of my life. Even better than the buzz of discovering that the Lord of the Universe is on the planet.

Cheers Jethro


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:51:48 (GMT)
From: PYITP
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Just curious
Message:
Every reason to believe he will get your message.I dont think it's how you say with them. Happy people-still enjoying what you found you couldn't.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:27:11 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: PYITP
Subject: Just curious
Message:
PYITP

I was one of the happiest premies around and probably brought I don't know how many people to prempal. Even after being thrown out of the ashram onto the street, I still went around praising Him.

When I clicked that prem was a con, I became even happier after nearly commiting suicide several times thinking I had totally dissed my own life.

I have no doubt now that all the love and 'cosmic' experiences that I still continue to have belong to me and I can give it to whom and what I like.

I am glad that you say Sam and Lee are happy.

Anyway if you see Sam, tell him I still love him and that our own personal history of going thru a very hairy situation together and surviving, is much more real than his 'connection' with prempal.

If I embarrassed Lee by puting up the 'fuck-you' video story, she should understand that I just can't stand the revisionism that prempal has indulged in revisionism in his adult life.

In so far as I am concerned, if anyone is considering 'receiving knowledge', they should be properly informed before making any decisions. Even if that means loosing friends.

So PYITP tell sam to email me or phone me. So although I have moved I still have the same phone number.

Cheers Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 23:48:46 (GMT)
From: PYITP
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Just curious
Message:
I would say he will have already heard your comments Jethro. But in any case , for sure......
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:00:20 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: PYITP
Subject: Thanks (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 00:59:14 (GMT)
From: ham the hamzen
Email: None
To: PYITP
Subject: And we're going to kidnap and take him to a desert
Message:
rave,
and spike him with drugs,
until he realizes that everything he credits to gm
is actually his own
oh and if you're reading this robyn heslop the same applies to you,
after all I do still owe you one too, although you've probably completely forgotten

mike cobb who used to be with carol in Edgware in 1974, and still has a soft spot for yer, yer wild man, jeesus I've still got a picture of you at robin & mandy's wedding in that dodgy pimps orange suit, with yer bushwacka beard.
PYITP if you could pass this message on appreciated, even telepathically via the guru, IF you must.
I would also add that Jethro the fisherman is on a really good one now, mind you it took him long enough, hah!
I would also add that I too got everything from k I wanted and hoped for, more than really, but gm obviously wasn't too kean on letting people into it, and neither is he very good at helping them once there, still with all his real estate, drugs and mistresses, I'm amazed he's got any time for premies at all.

yours in the beat
ham

PS Forum admins, the top part of this post is an in-joke, ok!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:06:19 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: ham the hamzen
Subject: Come to think of it........
Message:
I owe sam one like you owe robin....completely forgot that cup of coffee he gave in Tel Aviv.

Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 14:51:48 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Jethro
Subject: Just curious
Message:
Sorry Jethro, I don't know anything about it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 01:48:06 (GMT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Answers
Message:
Thanks Michael.
Bill and Cynthia, I was involved in security at three different residences, and I was never aware of any firearms, even during the Deca days.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 01:25:21 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Michael - One more question
Message:
I think you must have participated in Instructor Trainings and the like as well as spending a lot of time with M.

Do you know whether M ever practiced Knowledge on a regular basis?

Thanks again for your continued forthrightness.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 14:48:29 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Postie
Subject: One more answer
Message:
If you have finally recognized that devotion to Maharaji is the beginning and end of the so called 'knowledge' he offers, then Maharaji definately practices knowledge.

I say this because he is absolutely devoted to, and focused on, himself to the exclusion of anyone and anything else.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 19:22:32 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Michael: Did M meditate?
Message:
Excellent point. That sums up 'knowledge' precisely and puts the M / K relationship in focus. Those few lines deserve a **best of** status.

More specifically though, did M ever meditate or otherwise use any 'yogic technique' to focus / relax or was he under the assumption that since he was the 'master' he didn't need to do that? I remember at Guru Puja Montrose in 1972 he said 'you don't meditate for me, you meditate for yourself, I am high enough, I'm already at that infinite state'. I also recall a post here that when Marolyn had her brain surgery M was very upset / agitated. When one of his doctors (Dr. John?) suggested he meditate his response was that he didn't need to do that. Lately I've wondered if he ever really meditated consistently to a point it could be relied upon as solid ground in a storm, so to speak. The more I write, the more rhetorical this sounds but I'm still curious what your observation was.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 19:46:32 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Postie
Subject: Did M meditate?
Message:
Postie,

I mentioned in an earlier post that I never saw Maharaji seated in formal meditation. Since I didn't follow him into his bedroom I suppose it is possible that he meditated at that time except, of course, when he was in a drunken stupor and had to be carried to his bedroom.

You raise an interesting point about Maharaji’s need or not to meditate. I think it is safe to say that anyone who has achieved mastery in some domain continues to practice diligently in order to sustain his or her mastery. The arts and sports worlds are replete with top performers who continue to practice diligently.

Judging by his depraved behavior, and the dismal results of his efforts to spread his knowledge, it would appear that Maharaji has long lost whatever mastery he claims to possess.

Michael

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 00:35:43 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Michael: r.e., meditation
Message:
Michael,

You stated many posts ago that you still practice Knowlege, and that you do another meditation. Would you mind telling us what it is.

And how do you feel about the four techniques of Knowledge? Do you think they work, i.e., make people happy and content?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:27:03 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: r.e., meditation
Message:
Hi Dog,

If I said I practiced knowledge, then I misspoke. As I said in my response to Postie above, expressing and experiencing devotion to M is ultimately what practicing knowledge is all about. If people understanding that the four techniques were not invented by M and that he has nothing whatsoever to do with any experience that may be derived from practicing them, then perhaps some people may find them useful.

I choose not to practice the four techniques for two reasons. First, there is simply too much baggage associated with them. Second, I have since adopted other “centering” practices that are more suited to my needs. I sit in formal meditation every day for 30 – 40 minutes using a breathing technique. I also work 3 or 4 times a week with a stick known as a “jo” in Aikido. This practice is very effective for focusing, aligning and extending my energy and intent in a specific direction. Finally, I periodically use a technology tool called Hemi-Sync. This practice helps me to visualize desired outcomes and also helps stimulate creativity.

All of these practices complement my desire to lead a meaningful and full life. I do not practice them so that I can escape from the world but rather so that I can engage more fully and effectively in the world. And their effectiveness is not dependent upon surrendering to anyone.

Hope this answers your question.

Michael

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 06:37:01 (GMT)
From: Virgil
Email: Yeah Virgil
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: r.e., meditation
Message:
So to me Mike , that is where you lost the plot.
Knowledge IS what it is all about. M? Well he is the teacher for scmucks like us. (ie; he's the one who showed us this thing) Go play with your stick Mike - you finally found what you were looking for.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:43:27 (GMT)
From: Insideout
Email: None
To: Virgil
Subject: r.e., meditation
Message:
jez Virg, you havn't changed a bit. Still a grumpy ol' bugger. What are you doing here? Keeping an eye on Michael?
Take care, join in the fun

Insideout

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 14:03:36 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Virgil
Subject: r.e., meditation
Message:
Virgil,

I lost the plot back in 1971 when I projected a Catholic upbringing into believing that I had found the Lord of the Universe in a 12 year old Indian boy who possessed the “Truth” and came into the world to spread his knowledge. At that time, nothing seemed more attractive to me than to be a part of that noble cause and I joined in enthusiastically.

It took me almost 20 years to finally accept that he is nothing more that a drunken fraud. My reasons for saying so are well documented on this site. The day I let him go is the day I took back my own life and once again regained my right to create my own plot. For better or worse, it is my plot and I’m no longer the “schmuck” who needs such a teacher.

By the way Virgil, saying that “Knowledge IS what it is all about” is a self-referencing statement that is meaningless. Are you the same Virgil I worked with for so many years while I was serving M? If you are then, as a lawyer, you should know better than to spout such platitudes. Anyway, we should get together, shoot some pool and rehash old and new times, just like the old days.

Michael

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 08:13:19 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Virgil
Subject: Virgil,Were you in India in 1981?
Message:
If you are that Virgil....well I won't say anything at the moment.

Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 12:49:02 (GMT)
From: PYITP
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Virgil,Were you in India in 1981?
Message:
Heh, heh , heh. Hey Homer that got them chewing over the fat!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 16:30:50 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: PYITP
Subject: Virgil,Were you in India in 1981?
Message:
Mike D's post above confirms my memory of Virgil(one of prem's lawyers) being in India in 1981.

I was in India with a group of (premie)consultants. I was the IT person. It was my service to try and introduce sampuranand, dipak and whatisname to computer usage. We also gave talks around the place(ie India).

Rajeswar took mw around to meet his former Indian-legal-people friends. He wanted to show his former colleagues, how his guru had Western devotees who give satsang.

We stayed at the Kanishka hotel and I also stayed at an ashram in Delhi. That is where is I met Virgil and heard about his antics which I refused to believe of a premie, especially the lord's lawyer.

I won't say more at the present, I'll just say that had I verified the truth of what I was told, I would have definitely puched him very hard on the nose(yes harder than Ron Geaves threatened me with last year), and and got him arrested.

Virgil, consider replying. I really have a problem keeping my mouth shut.

PYITP, were you in India at that time?

Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:10:05 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Virgil
Subject: Virgil, I remember you, you were at DECA, too...
Message:
Hi Virgil,

You won't remember me, I was just one of the slaves at DECA who you frequently terrified by your irreverant and disrespecful behavior toward woman, and lower class premies as well. I remember you very well. ''If its Maharaji, Jim Hession or Virgil, it's a 'right away call'.'' Thank you for all your nice manners!!

I remember Virgil very well. Anything for Goomraji, right?

Care to answer? Are you as brave as Michael Dettmers? Let's have a conversation.

Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 21:54:44 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Questions
Message:
In Miami, I heard that the security house was indeed armed.
m said at one point to a security guy, 'you have your hardware, but what about your software' and he poked the guy in the ribs
hard with his hand and broke a couple of the guys ribs.
Michael might confirm this or deny this?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 20:03:00 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Questions--Deca
Message:
Hi chr,

I know you addressed this to Michael, but I worked at Deca in the Design Office and also ''maintained his suite of offices'' there. First floor, front offices off the main shop. I had access to nearly every area in the complex. Where was the place at Deca where the gifts were kept? Upstairs? Hmmm....I wonder if I know you....

Just curious and a little nosey,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 21:56:51 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Questions--Deca
Message:
Hi Cynthia, it was at the other end of DECA and on the second floor. Chicken wire and wood walls. And always someone doing service gaurding it. 24 hours a day I bet.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:03:29 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Questions--Deca--bill, I remember that place...
Message:
hi bill,

Just the mention of DECA triggers me a lot. What's it like for you, have you gotten over it? Too personal? I have many blocked memories of DECA. I find it difficult sometimes to put events in chronological order, etc. I know they're all up there in my noggin'. I remember how exhausted I was, you and any one here or lurking knows that feeling of 'I absolutely cannot go on, but I will for my Lard' exhaustion. Phew! What a slave driver, so often, one of his whimsical ideas, or dark tirades, left premies slaving for days without sleep. Fucking Brat.

Hear that EV monitors! He's got you reading us because he's a fucking brat!!! (chuckle) Are you doing it because he's your LORD????

Looking back, it was such a fucking weird fucking place. Bizarre! All I wanted while I was there was darshan, that's it. My magical thinking about M's power was at it's height. My guilt about not doing enough (LOL) was also at it's height. What a weird place. Swan and I would go on jaunts (having a car most every day helped) and literally hit all the tackiest crafts stores to buy do-dads for his royal arse's malas, pants, etc. Oooooooooh such bliss!:))) Personal service, wow man!

I too, was well aware that security for M was packing heat. It would have been ludicrous for them NOT to, in Miami???! It was kind of a given because of what was going on at DECA, too. FAA fraud, theft of intellectual material from Boeing, a non-specified ''client,'' and all other crimes, or at least ''missdeeds'' going on. I can't remember M's body guard's name at the moment, but I remember always thinking: I pity the premie or anyone who messes with him! But he knew me and I was very reserved around M, so he never had any qualms about letting me into a private area. No smart cards back then:)))) Maharaji's presence frightened me, though. The big ole creepy crawler!

What a big fat rat, eh?

Hope you're well, bill--a hug to you.
Love,
Cynthia

P.S. Have your dreams stopped??

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 05:05:44 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Questions--Deca--bill, I remember that place...
Message:
Yes, thanks they have.

In the Drekmasters red nighty series on his site, there is some DECA parts in there that describe the place partially.
In honor of your post, I took a Ben and Jerry's out of the fridge while I type. Can you believe what David SUmmersong wrote?!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 16:47:43 (GMT)
From: Jethrro
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Questions
Message:
'I was told that they comprised mainly gifts from premies and that M had to keep them because they were given with devotion. The amount of stuff, much of it brand new,was astronomical. '

I did security of pp's property cica 1979 near his Reigate residence. It was in a hired barn on a farm which could also be described as a warehouse. There were piles of gifts from premies which I was told not to touch, in fact I was told not to touch anything, even the dust of his and darma pal's (RJ) cars.

I don't know what happened to them(the gifts), but all I can say is that during the 3 months that I was there, they were never looked at by prempal or anyone else.

I have to say that I once(shiveringly) peeked inside one box, and it was home-made tape of Muddy Waters songs.

The note attached said, 'I really enjoy this, I hope you do too'.

(Well, I had 12 hours shifts and no toilet. I kid you not and sometimes someone even brought me a meal.
In fact that's where I met Aubrey West and his beloved. But that's neither here nor there).

Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 16:02:12 (GMT)
From: chr
Email: None
To: chr
Subject: Above post directed to Michael Dettmers (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 15:30:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: ELK Expressions are getting weirder alright
Message:
Check this out. Are these guys putting out some crazy shit or what?:

Ivette --

Amaroo

Someone asked me what I wish for in my life.
I have everything that I could need, however:
I want to be in this enjoyable place of learning.
I wish to go to Amaroo, I need to know how
to be in this endless joy, sharing it with others.

Someone asked me what I wish for in my life.
I have everything that I could need, however:
the infinite love and grace of this gift is my goal.
It is my priority; the priority of my life.
To follow this joy with my heart, is my choice.

Someone asked me what I wish for in my life.
I have everything that I could need, however:
I would love to fly to Amaroo and be there.
Due to this unique gift, I have fulfillment
and renewal each breathe. This is my real opportunity.

Someone asked me what I wish for in my life.
I have everything that I could need, however:
I know that there is more and more each breath,
I have this precious feeling in my heart.
I see that the love in this feeling is pure.

Someone asked me what I wish for in my life.
I have everything that I could need, however:
I see my way ahead following the path inside.
It is clear. It is my choice and my priority. It is my life.
This road is paved with clarity and gratitude.

Domingo --

To practice

Practice is my armor
because there is
an enemy waiting,
Even if I am in a safe harbor,
or even if I am not,
it can always be in my way.
No matter if I am on a farm,
or in a city, it can consume you.
It makes you believe that
this beautiful life
you are living now
is in a dark sea.
It makes you believe
you don't live
in a wonderful heaven
on this wonderful earth.
That's why I have
to practice.
Then I realize and accept
this beautiful gift.
Every day there is the question of
whether to make practice my daily food.
That fulfillment is always waiting for me.
I need the strength of that armor.

Janice --

Happy beings

The sun of enlightenment
shines inside of me
and inside of all human beings.
As incredible and life giving
that the sun in the sky is,
this sun inside
is even more wonderous, beneficial
to human beings.
How fortunate and blessed
a person who takes time in this life
to go in and sit under this inner sun.
Great happiness, such joy, excitement
are some of its benefits.
I wish more people could, would
open their hearts to this sun inside.
I'm sure happiness would solve
most of the problems we have here on earth.
And even if there were some problems
it couldn't solve, at least we could be happy.

(Last four lines are personal favorites!)

Stojan --

This one breath

The most important
thing in my life,
is this one breath,
that goes in,
and goes out.
My happiness
with Knowledge
depends on whether
my attention,
is glued by my mind
to everything else,
or whether it is glued
through my breath
to my heart.

and Stojan again --

A cry of gratitude

With the gift
of the Knowledge
within my heart,
I often find myself crying -
a joyful, silent cry.
I'm not ashamed of this.
In fact, I'm even proud.
And if I don't find tears of joy,
I wish that I could cry them
out of gratitude...

This could have been YOU but for the grace!


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:36:17 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: an enemy waiting...
Message:
whoa, these poems or expressions are really cries for help!

And to think that for a few moments in my own life I would consider that that kind of stuff was meaningful and important poetry.

Yes, it was almost me, but the grace of the DRUG CULTURE busted me out.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:17:59 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Rawfat -- more expensive than sniffing glue n/t
Message:
mm
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:48:01 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Rawfat -- or smelling lotus feet w/Lagerfeld n/t
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 16:21:33 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh the Gratitude! This one breath.....
Message:
what a crock.

Btw, hasn't the big Rat told premies they are only to practice holy name during ''formal'' practice? Now if this premie is trying to constantly mediate and remember holy name, isn't he going against M's AGYA!!?!!

LOL, Jim, talk about trite, unimaginative and brainwashed!

Love,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 15:59:07 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It seems like BRAIN DAMAGE (NT)
Message:
AHA
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 14:06:24 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Article on satpal(a former follower of prempal)
Message:
http://www.smsu.edu/relst/premnagar.html
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 18:09:55 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Did you read about the riot?
Message:
All this stuff is from 1998 but it is illustrative of how we put eastern culture on a pedestal, only to find swamis and gurus are fighting each other, and saddhus are fighting in the streets. This is what to expect in cultures where religion and politics and war make strange bedfellows. (I fear the Shrub in the US White House would like the US to become a 3rd world country in ths regard.)

Although this link had nothing to do with Satpal, it was a riot reading about the riot! However, re M, this riot article is certainly similar to rumors that I heard that this sort of stuff was going on between Satpal and Prempal (Maharaji), and that back in the 70s Stapal had taken Prem Nagar by force.

The saddhu, sanyassi, swami and guru riot

At least Satpal and Prempal don't preach peace. It is a real hoot when I read about Buddhists doing this sort of thing.

If anyone knows about the India Satpal and Prempal feud, or if there's a link on the ex-premie site, I'd love to hear the dirt!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 22:00:14 (GMT)
From: jean-Paul
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Angels?
Message:
Fransesca,
I spend a long time in south east asia (Burma, Thaïland, Laos, Vietnam, Indonesia). I like very much these countries. Official 'religion' is buddhism (except Indonesia). Everybody there is buddhist but most of the people don't know so much about meditation and buddhist psychology and philosophy. It seems that only 10% of the monks meditate. I don't say that people are not under a good influence of buddhism but anything can happen even the worst. Girls got raped bij buddhist monks, some monks have been forming gangs and attacked people and banks etc… This happens regularly.
I also hear that tibetan monks really fought with violence for succession at the top of traditionnal schools.
Some tibetans who arrived in Europe got problems. All the women looking at them with sooo much love, you imagine the rest..
There are very positive sides of buddhism in these countries but it is not the topic of my post.

Jean-Paul

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:13:23 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: jean-Paul
Subject: Lack of education and the whammy juju
Message:
Just like in my post below, I got to thinking it is quite like the Radisoami (sp?) whammy Pat and Chuck speak of. In many of these countries people are quite religious, but uneducated and easily swayed.

Re Tibetan in-fighting, I've heard that there has been some, depending up the time in history and the lineage. I do know that the Dalai Lama appears to eschew all violence, to the chagrin of many who would gladly take up arms and be freedom fighters. I'm really not sure that would do any good anyway, philosophy one way or another aside.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 22:39:26 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: jean-Paul
Subject: Angels with Horns?
Message:
I was in Thailand and Laos last year, and I did begin to wonder what the story was with the monks. In Luang Prabang, my friends and I were taking pictures of a temple on the banks of the Mekong River, and a group of monks were sitting nearby. My friend, who spoke some of the language asked if we could take their picture, and they gave their permission. When we took their picture, one monk gave us the finger, which really surprised me. Even though I did think it was kind of funny, it really made me wonder if they were all they were cracked up to be.

In many of the temples in Thailand, there would be signs saying 'women not allowed.' That bothered me a lot more than the guy giving us the finger. Also, the behavior of the monks on the streets of Laos (Vientiane and Luang Prabang) was fairly uncouth.

Also, we almost got killed daily riding in tuk tuks, and it was explained to us by one of our American friends who lived there that because most of the population believe in reincarnation, they don't care as much about dying because they figure you'll come right back. I've never seen such crazy driving as theirs.

Thanks for your input, the monks' behavior now makes more sense to me.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:06:11 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Not sure it was just certainty in reincarnation
Message:
In about 1969 I spent several months in Grenada, back when it was under the British rule. There people practiced everything from Christianity to voodoo and they drove like maniacs. Most of the people were very poor but comfortable -- you didn't have to do much to get by. Thus not much culture, at least not in the hybrow Western sense, which seems to be driven by several major influences: angst, separation, dysfunctional relationships and sometimes nonconventional sexual ideas and fantasies. Anyway, they had none of that, and not much TV either. However, I don't think they believed in reincarnation, and many folks were uneducated.

The roads were extremely narrow, i.e. not wide enough for two cars to pass each other, and curvy. People drove like maniacs. There were quite a few head-on crashes just littering the side of the road wherever you went, except right in the town of St. Georges. One day we were in the local equivalent of a taxi and were involved in an accident on a road outside of town where the poorer folks lived. People, babies, dogs, ducks and chicken came out to watch. They looked at all the participants as if they were on TV, laughing at someone with a bit of blood on his head and holding his head with his hand looking worried. They thought he was expecially funny. It was quite shocking actually.

I agree the reincarnation had something to do with it, but lack of education might have had even more.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 01:52:56 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Maybe it was the air quality..
Message:
The air was the pits in S.E. Asia--maybe that was it. Average life span for a traffic cop is 45.

Sounds like the Granadians were into 'reality' TV way ahead of the curve. :-))

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 02:14:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Yes definitely. Someone from ...
Message:
Fox must have gone down there and had one too many pina coladas and had an epiphany.

But the monk giving the finger must have been funny and creepy at the same time. When my sister (one of the non-premie ones [I have 3, 1 premie still practicing, 2 nons]) stopped in Thailand several years ago there were Buddha images everywhere. She was in a bar one night where folks were drinking in one part of the palce, there was a kickboxing fight fight in another part of the place, and there was a Budhha altar where the incense was constantly burning. She didn't stay there long enough to get used to the juxtaposition.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 13:20:45 (GMT)
From: Jean-Paul
Email: jfagnaux@hotmail.com
To: Francesca
Subject: Juxtapositions
Message:
Thaïland is the land of contradictions and paradoxes. Thaï are the most inconmprehensible and mysterious people that I know. That is on of the reasons I like them. To touch them is not easy. But when you know how they fonction, you have a great time with them. I learned their language. That opened many doors for me. To analyze them with western mind and our logic and references is very hard stuff. They have defaults (quite impossible to know what they think and feel on a normal basis, they look like hypocrits) but they have qualities that are rare (present seems to be their only reality and in that there is an incredible space for relax, play, feelings and complicity).
You can freak out or enjoy it. Usually there are 3 steps for people. First, Thaïland is heaven, smiles everywhere, kindness, people incredibly relax. Second, you start to see what is behind this beautifull scene (Thaï have 26 ways of smiling which mean something different). A that point, you feel very disapointed. You think that these people are crazy. The more you feel that, the more they stay away from you. Like cats, they don't even look at you.
Third step, you look at your reactions, and you take the good and the bad and you like it again. Thaï are like cats: mysterious, a little bit interested, they come when they want and not when you want, out of time, lazy sometimes, sexy, and they like most of all to play.
You find juxtapositions of everything you can imagine. In the same magazine: good articles about meditation , advices for women to masturbate and get satifaction, photos of crimes with blood everywhere, football, word of wisdom, advices to win the lottery etc…
It is not white and black but a very intersting world for me.
Francesca, if you want you can email me. I think we have interest in common. To speak about that here would be out of topic.
Jean-Paul
Return to Index -:- Top of Index