Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 05:07:59 (GMT)
From: Feb 03, 2001 To: Feb 13, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


la-ex -:- 3 Q's for Michael Dettmers.. -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:58:29 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- Answers -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:15:37 (GMT)

Know It All -:- Where's this week's EV forum monitor rept? -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:19:20 (GMT)
__ Elan Vital -:- Monitor report for this week -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:04:54 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- The Meaning of Latvia - For EV -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:02:43 (GMT)

janet -:- hey sandy you're not the only one still.. -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 13:40:29 (GMT)
__ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- I hear you Janet -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 00:33:24 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Oh and another thing... -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:20:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Oh and another thing... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:03:25 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Heroin, Rumi and Babbitt -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:55:01 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Setbacks always possible so long as K looms large -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 02:57:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Not just -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:44:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Knowledge v. Meditation -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 18:51:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- Bullshit! -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 17:59:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joy -:- Right On, Jim! -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 17:47:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Right On, Jim! -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 19:03:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Charles S -:- Jim and Joy are right... -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 21:16:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Conlon -:- Joe, Right On, Jim and Joy! -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 19:36:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, Patrick and a suggestion -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:02:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks, Joe, you are right -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:20:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- PS Joe, kriya yoga = Hindu horse-shit -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:56:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- PS Joe, kriya yoga = Hindu horse-shit -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 21:39:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Ulf, your question is too serious to answer now -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:56:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Ulf, is there a God and a purpose to life? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:35:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- god -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 14:12:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Ulf, is there a God and a purpose to life? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:55:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- Knowlegde -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 17:36:24 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Hitler, Rev Moon and the Fatguru. -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:40:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- But Anth ... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:42:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- But Anth ... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 11:05:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- But Anth ... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:19:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- That's very funny Chris. (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 12:52:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- Mobutu, Father Divine and the Fatguru. -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 18:16:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Riding on a sleigh. -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:04:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Anth, welcome to the real party(nt) -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:48:11 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- hey sandy you're not the only one still.. -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 17:54:28 (GMT)
__ salam -:- No, I don't want to pull you to peices -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 15:00:13 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- hey sandy you're not the only one still.. -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:24:23 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- It's a bit different for me.... -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:37:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Rip-off. -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:51:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- It's a bit different for me.... -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:56:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tim G -:- It's a bit different for me.... -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 00:23:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- It's a bit different for me.... -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:43:37 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- a couple of questions janet -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:11:04 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- a couple of questions janet -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 10:04:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- a couple of questions janet--cont'd from last -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:23:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- a couple of questions janet -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 15:44:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- questions questions questions -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 11:05:55 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- a couple of questions janet -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 17:02:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim G -:- nice one Bill nt -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 17:58:43 (GMT)

Jesse -:- Fall 1972 -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 06:37:11 (GMT)
__ X -:- Fall 1972 -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:26:50 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- ARE YOU CHRIS DICKEY OR NOT? -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 03:00:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ X -:- xter -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 07:17:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You call that an answer? -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 15:25:15 (GMT)
__ A Prabu -:- Fall 1972 -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 13:15:51 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Administrator -:- Prabu = kap -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 05:14:33 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- To A Prabu -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:30:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jesse -:- Are you a Krishna devotee? -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:13:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Are you a Krishna devotee? -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:06:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- The true test of a Krishna devotee -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:37:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Actually, It Was His Wife Who Saved Him :))....nt -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:50:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Actually, his wife is(was?) a premie :)) -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:56:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I think 'was'.... -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:05:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- To Jesse -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:58:54 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Fall 1972 -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 12:44:06 (GMT)
__ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Reincarnation -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:48:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Reincarnation -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 03:09:49 (GMT)
__ __ david m -:- Fall 1972 {OT} -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:30:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Fall 1972 {OT} -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:34:09 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Fall 1972 (OT) -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 13:31:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- to Salam and Jesse -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:00:21 (GMT)

Brian -:- New Journeys Entries -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 05:22:01 (GMT)
__ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- New Journeys Entries -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:20:18 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- To Patrick - My new theory -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:13:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- To Patrick - My new theory -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 23:59:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yep. that's the question alright -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 03:07:41 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Patrick, please email me -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:25:05 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- And another Quickie Entry -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 13:58:20 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- you're keeping EV monjitors busy -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:46:37 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- New Journeys Entries -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 12:43:13 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Thanks, all of you -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 12:25:23 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Incredible stuff -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 05:47:58 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Incredible stuff -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:34:57 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- I knew Tiny, Babs -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 13:48:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Babs -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:50:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Babs -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:31:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Babs - Tiny -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:24:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Wasn't Tiny part of 'Spaceship Prachar?' -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 00:29:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- I think it was 'starship',not spaceship nt -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:01:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Right ,'Starship', Prachar (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 17:09:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- and Tiny, was Gregory Rineheart,from Mich. nt -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:04:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Ian Dury -:- Yes he was, Joe, good memory. nt -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 00:54:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- For $1million = who was Tiny's sidekick? (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 04:18:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Tiny's sidekicks in 'Starship Winnebago'... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:11:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ insideout -:- Tiny's sidekicks in 'Starship Winnebago'... -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 07:57:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- That's the guy! -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:28:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Give the money to insideout -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 09:50:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Insideout: You could be right. -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 16:17:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The guy from the South was Russell Tate!!! -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 21:10:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Marianne, send the $million to Joe -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:05:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Whatever happened to Russell? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:30:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Postie: Carole Greenberg, Lola, Susan Butcher? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 16:40:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Postie: Carole Greenberg, Lola, Susan Butcher? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:19:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hey there Monmot! -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 20:02:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Postie: Carole Greenberg, Lola, Susan Butcher? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:02:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Didn't Susan Butcher follow BBJ? (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 21:13:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Postie, please read -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:21:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Was it Teddy Tannenbaum? (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:05:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Hopefully Teddy was too cool for that -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:09:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- I know, I know --- Russell Tate (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:31:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- In which city? -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 09:58:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- What's Brad's last name? -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 15:49:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Marianne - the check's in the mail! -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 15:42:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Brad and Tiny -- david m??? -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 19:08:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Is it Brad King? nt -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:25:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I knew Rekha, Babs -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 16:19:20 (GMT)

Patrick (Anon) -:- 'Fear' would the 2 Mikes care to comment ? -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 01:38:36 (GMT)
__ FOMF -:- 'Fear' would the 2 Mikes care to comment ? -:- Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 15:44:11 (GMT)
__ cq -:- What kind of 'Lord' would deny a doubting Thomas? -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:02:35 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- 'Fear' - my comment -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 15:42:34 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Fear -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:29:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Charles S -:- Fear and mixed messages... -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:16:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Changing your mind v. lying -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:42:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Charles S -:- Changing mind,lying to reconcile contradictions... -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 02:47:58 (GMT)
__ __ Tim G -:- Yep. We, ourselves, are the obstacle. nt -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:03:13 (GMT)
__ Maurice -:- All Heart Love. -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:20:44 (GMT)
__ __ Conlon -:- Jealous, insecure batterers control by fear NT -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:27:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Jealous, insecure batterers control by fear NT -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 17:22:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Conlon -:- Cynthia - fear of M -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:32:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill-for those that want -:- a best of week list, here is one of them...nt***** -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 23:46:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Cynthia - fear of M...Wow Conlon... -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:03:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Conlon -:- Cynthia - fear of M...Wow Conlon... -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:16:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, Conlon! (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:39:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Not 'NT' ^^^^^^^ sorry (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 17:23:34 (GMT)
__ gErRy -:- 'Fear' would the 2 Mikes care to comment ? -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:05:22 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- heh heh... you're well in touch with yours,Ger (nt -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:14:27 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Nothing wrong with inner child dude. -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:12:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ moldy warp -:- Nothing wrong with inner child dude. -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 02:29:09 (GMT)
__ __ Maurice. -:- I fuckin' larfed. -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:30:23 (GMT)

la-ex -:- Patrick(anon)-are you serious about a new yacht? -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 00:14:13 (GMT)
__ Suchabanana -:- Forum's'Greatest Hits':The Mahamantra...[da yacht] -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:21:21 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Forum's'Greatest Hits': this should be on video!nt -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 18:24:24 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Thanks Such, very creative. -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:23:06 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Brilliant Post! -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 09:46:54 (GMT)
__ Patrick (anon) -:- Patrick(anon)-are you serious about a new yacht? -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 00:41:05 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Yacht, etc - With No Money Down -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 02:03:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- It's a matter of grammar. -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 17:05:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- 'Money For Nothing' -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:20:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Bravo Cynthia. -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 10:56:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Excellent, C ynthia LOL -- Mark Knopfler -:- Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 00:02:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Sorry^^^Replace Sting with ''Rawat Screaming''(nt) -:- Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:45:48 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:58:29 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 3 Q's for Michael Dettmers..
Message:
Michael- I have 3 questions for you;I'm not sure if you ever answered questions similar to these or not..

1)-Did you ever witness anyone ever tell m off, in a serious way?
Did anyone ever really get in his face and confront him about any of the stuff that he does that is so harmful and demeaning and hypocritical?
I'm sure that person's time with m would have been up as soon as they said it, but surely someone must have let loose at some time and told him he was full of shit about some of the stuff that he does..

Alan Imbaratto,an instructor, supposedly did once, and then was either banished or quit the instructor program.
That's the only one I've ever heard of.

2-Does m ever encourage feedback from a small group of people? Feedback with 'no holds barred'?
Even Rush Limbaugh has fans challenge him with questions and feedback, so he can develop answers to his critics.
Did you ever see m do that with people and their comments or criticisms?

3-It seems to me that while m's work on a technological level is in the 'new age', his psychological understanding and fear based style is still in the 'dark ages'.
While there is an attempt at a kinder,gentler K these days, the top down authoritarian style still seems to foster this blindness within the whole group. 'The Emporers Clothes' still applies to him in many ways.

The question I have is: Does he see any of this(the emporers clothes syndrome), but just decides to continue with it in the same way, because he has a loyal base of true believers who will support him no matter what he does?
Or does he not see any of this stuff, and believe it to be 'new age psycho-babble' that has no place in the world of the master?

In other words, is he truely blind to these things we see so clearly,or do you think he knows it and sees it, but it's just too convenient to keep going in the old ways, especially if there are still followers ready, willing and able to follow and foot the bill?

Dr. John told me once that m was not too hip to psychology, and because of his lack of understanding of it, put it down. I think he was trying to explain some of it to m, with little success.(this was mostly in reference to relationship based psychology programs-it seems pretty obvious that he's not too good at those)

Hope these questions made sense.

Thanks,
La-ex

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:15:37 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: la-ex
Subject: Answers
Message:
la-ex,

1)- Did you ever witness anyone ever tell m off, in a serious way?

No

2- Does m ever encourage feedback from a small group of people? Feedback with 'no holds barred'?

Not while I was around him. I don’t know what he does now, in this regard.

3- Does m see the emperor’s clothes syndrome, but decides to continue in the same way because he has a loyal base of true believers who will support him no matter what he does? Or does he not see any of this stuff, and believe it to be 'new age psycho-babble' that has no place in the world of the master?

M understands the psychology of fear and uses it to convince people that he is innately superior to every other human being. So far, there are still enough people around him who believe this crap, continue to worship him, and send him money on a regular basis. Until that changes, I see no reason why he would want to give up such a one-sided deal from which he derives such tremendous benefits. What you are really asking is, “Doesn’t he have a conscience or moral compass to help him distinguish between right and wrong?” Perhaps he once did but, in my opinion, his greed, depravity and lust for power have blinded him to anything other than that which will fulfill his insatiable desires.

Michael

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:19:20 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Where's this week's EV forum monitor rept?
Message:
Come on, Forum Monitor. Your last report was so....incisive. So synchronized.
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:04:54 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Monitor report for this week
Message:
To: Maharaji (THE CLIENT)
Elan Vital Board of Directors
North American and European Operations - EV and Visions

Date: February 5, 2001

Subject: Week of January 22, Forum V of the 'Ex-Premie Forum'

This is another of our weekly synchronized reports on the ongoing monitoring of the vicious, unfounded and anonymous statements made by 'premies' from the 70s who are still angry because Maharaji closed the ashrams and dropped 'Guru' from his name. There is no explaining anything to these people. 'Forum V' of the so-called 'Ex-Premie' website, found at www.ex-premie.org on the Internet, continues to be a pit of unsynchronized, confused, misunderstanding, unabated.

During the past week, the volume of posters appears to be holding steady, or perhaps increasing, although the monitors have reason to believe that multiple people are posting under multiple names to make it appear that lots of people are posting, when we believe it is actually only 3 people: Jim Heller (the antichrist), Michael Dettmers, and someone named 'Katie.' As we reported last week, those slimeballs are just inflating the statistics they published, which are outright lies. We cannot believe 6,000 - 10,000 messages, and hundreds of people are visiting that hell-hole everyday. Those statistics are innacurate, unlike those on THE CLIENT'S website, all of which is true and accurate, or the Elan Vital website, which give new meaning to the terms truth and accuracy, especially our answers to the FAQs, which Hill and Knowlton, our PR consultants, have assured us will innoculate Elan Vital and THE CLIENT from any problems caused by the ex-premie clique. We are just so blissed out that we did such a great job on our website, by the inspiration of THE CLIENT, of course.

We also wanted to report on our new campaign, suggested with typical brillianc by THE CLIENT, has been successful, in that we have been rapidly spreading the 'rumor' that THE CLIENT is displeased if PWKs even look at that ex-premie website or the Forum, and that banishment forever to the back rows of events, with that 'flag' forever included in the information on all Smart Cards will befall anyoue found to be posting, or reading there, unless given specific direction by THE CLIENT, such as the direction given to Turner and Danny and all Elan Vital 'Monitors.'

Our PR consultants have done a survey of PWKs and enough of them are scared shitless of doing anything to displease Maharaji, because they will go to hell, or be reincarnated as an earth worm. These PWKs believe Maharaji is omniscient and can tell by looking at them if they have sinned in this way. This is all to the good, and the CLIENT has agreed to do nothing to dissuade this widespread belief.

Details about THE CLIENT'S personal life are still discussed on the forum, mostly by confused individuals, like Michael Dettmers, who have the bizarre idea that Maharaji's lilas can be analyzed, understood, and compared to other, civilized behavior. We at Elan Vital always find this just so amusing, not to mention pathetic. The latest is more discussion of a 'yacht' and how it was hidden from the premies because fundraising was occurring at the very time THE CLIENT was buying the yacht. It is ludicrous the way these people expect THE CLIENT not to be enigmatic, and we at Elan Vital note that Maharaji's willingness to do such an enegimatic thing just proves that he is in the world but not of the world.

The following people who are still involved with Elan Vital were mentioned:

David Smith was once again crucified, attacked, and compared to both Hitler and Attilla the Hun. David continues to be the most hated person in the history of Elan Vital, with the possible exception of Mahatma Fakiranand and perhaps Mahatma Jagdeo. Glenn Whittaker was once again made fun of, especially because of his 'Perspective' on the Elan Vital website, and the forum has now begun making fun of his appearance, including the fact that he is balding. Randy Prouty, whose two business ventures in the telecommunications industry and selling house stoves were reported to be failing, was also discussed, including some vicious rumor that Randy facilitated THE CLIENT leaving the scene of a fatal accident, which we are almost certain, Randy has no recollection of. [Note to fundraising: Check to see if Randy still has money before assigning seats at the next program.]

The cell within the anti-Maharaji hate organization that appears to be developing in the San Francisco Bay Area appears to be consolidating, with a significant homosexual component, and connections to restaurants and something about Latvia. We are sure this is some kind of sinister plot to undermine Maharaji's good faith attempts to bring peace tot he entire world, and we have instructed the monitors to monitor this development, and we are considering a plan on infiltrating the group. Elan Vital has made contacts in the Bay Area for suggested agents.

As we reported last week, Sheldon Jaffee, who works in San Francisco, was outed on the forum, (as a PWK, not as a homosexual) but from what we can tell, he is not posting, and still is not posting, unless he is doing so anonymously. [Note to Finance: We suggest following up on interviewing Sheldon Jaffe before allowing him anywhere near THE CLIENT.]

Michael Dettmers continues his confused, Monmot ways, and damage control appears to be ineffective. Also, we reported last week that we were afraid our plant, Danny, is becomming sympathetic to the anti-CLIENT point of view, or else he is just really, really unsynchronized. Turner is doing a good job, however. Elan Vital continues to believe that his treatise on 'Maharaji as a Role Model' went over particularly well, and we note that THE CLIENT was very happy with what he had to say, especially Turner's contention that THE CLIENT is a better role model than Jesus Christ. THE CLIENT has asked us to send Turner a picture of THE CLIENT holding a child, as well as a video of Maharaji and clouds, as a thank you gift.

THE CLIENT has also made some attempts to uncover the identity of 'Pauline Premie.' She has applied for a synchronized position with Elan Vital, and we intend to offer her a position as 'In Synch Coordinator of Facilitated Operations and Coordination.'

Elan Vital believes that Pauline is enough of a chump, er, she has that understanding, to do this participation for no money, but will be happy eating the left-over lunches that come down fromt he Res. Since she lives in her car, we think there will be very low overhead, and more money available for the yacht, er, we mean 'special projects.'

Somebody named Michael Sparrow, or Parrot, or Pigeon, or Finch or something like that, has recently appeared on the forum as a questioning PWK, who is becoming an ex-PWK. Although we reported this to the CLIENT, and this person had contributed little in the way of money in the past 5 years, so the CLIENT is unable to recall who this person is and couldn't care less weather he is a PWK or not, unless he comes into a significant inheritance or strikes it rich in the stock market, at which time THE CLIENT may attempt to make contact with him.

Our next Board Meeting is in April at Amaroo. We are telling the PWKs that they have to make a big donation, in addition to the entrance fees to attend this event, to pay for operation of Amaroo. Despite the fact that Elan Vital has made this exact same pitch to the PWKs for the past 5 years, they appear to be falling for it, er we mean, having that understanding, once again, that dumping money into that parched, desert hell hole, is a means of doing participation, which is essential to being saved from the fires of hell. We here at Elan Vital, are amazed by the power of that understanding.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:02:43 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: The Meaning of Latvia - For EV
Message:
From the Elan Vital (never a cult) official FV Monitoring Report:-

The cell within the anti-Maharaji hate organization that appears to be developing in the San Francisco Bay Area appears to be consolidating, with a significant homosexual component, and connections to restaurants and something about Latvia. We are sure this is some kind of sinister plot to undermine Maharaji's good faith attempts to bring peace tot he entire world, and we have instructed the monitors to monitor this development, and we are considering a plan on infiltrating the group.

To Elan Vital, FYI

Latvia is a state of complete freedom from Maharaji. That's because Latvia is a state that Maharaji has never visited, nor to my knowledge, has any attempt at propagation ever taken place here. So Latvia is on the Baltic Sea, is in an appartment in Utrecht, in a bar in SF, the Latvian Club in London, and anywhere where free thinkers gather together to further plan the downfall of Prem Pal Singh Rawat!

John the Free!

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 13:40:29 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy/shp
Subject: hey sandy you're not the only one still..
Message:
being pulled back and forth by the old sentimental memories. yesterday i got a dress i ordered thru the mail and it was/is a white cotton ankle length gown like the ones we sisters used to wear in the ashrams. while i was smoothing it out in the humid bathroom mists as my son showered, I fell to reminiscing to him about Holi in Miami in the Orange bowl, and how we all wore white to let the dyes absorb more vividly. I started telling my son about it, and he was so attentive, when he dried off, i found myself wanting to go put on some of my old One Foundation tapes and go back to those days. to my surprise, when he came out of his room, he had put on a white floor length moroccan robe ( i think they call them djellabas?) i had never seen him wear, and he was in a real quiet, emotional mood. it struck me in a strange way, as if he was wordlessly saying that he wanted to be included in that premie life as we lived it, that he had a white dress/robe suitable for the occasion. he asked if he could lay down in my bed for a while, an odd request, since he usually asks to do it only when i am resting in it myself. i went on putting laundry away and i couldnt help but sing along with the tapes. at one point I sat down beside him and asked if he remembered these songs, since i played them all throughout his gestation and infancy and he was taken to programs at the convention center in his infancy and toddlerhood and heard the songs played live by the band from the stage.
he nodded in a sort of faraway, wistful way and didnt talk.

i played them on into the night until about 3 am.

tonight, the air here smells like miami of those years, long ago. i cant believe that was 20 years ago. it was 80° today, here in venice, and the flowering trees are beginning to give off their fragrances already, a month ahead of usual schedule. there are magnolias opening, crowding the trees both tiny and vast and i believe i am scenting them on the night wind , carried in on the ocean breeze into my room.
a week ago i shattered a tooth and found myself forced to go seek a dentist, and when i left the house, i discovered i was trembling and terribly emotional. it was as if my body, as if the real me beneath the facade, did not want to walk at all. i tried slowing down, i tried walking blind( eyes shut) tried cutting thru a big park on the way, hoping it might take away this jittery feeling, but none of my usual tricks worked. on the far side of the park i saww a chair on the curb and for no reason, sat in it, still straining to control my state.

imagine my complete surprise, when out of nowhere, without the techniques, suddenly the unmistakeable state of Knowledge came into me. the emotionality, the shakiness, the hanging back, all just disappeared into my breath and a shining, radiant, fresh world blew thru my soul.
I sat there, astonished, experiencing this familiar, instantly recognizable place i hadnt been in in many years. to stay in it, i had to be fairly quiet and move slowly, but the resistance in my body wasnt there anymore, nor was the shaking or the emotional overwhelm of a little while ago.

it was like all the pain of my life was forgotten and wiped away in an instant.
that saying on the tacky merchandise, EiYdHiWnAy, came floating back to me. I sat there, watching all this unfold, and thought about what was happening to me.

In my private inmost convictions, I thought, There is a being who comes to me that i only know inside me, who showed me this, who came and found me and i know as Maharaji, but it is not that guy in malibu, and it will never incarnate as a flesh and blood person. I refuse to connect the two as one and the same. they are totally different beings. that guy in malibu doesnt know me or care what hapens to me. but the one who i identify as my benefactor, who has just come again and given this to me, here, now, again..i will recognize that as what i mean when i say maharaji. whoever or whatever this presence is, it has zero need or desire for drink, money, sex, power, things, status,tricks, personal anything. it only comes to help me, and I never know when. If it gives me another name to call it, I will use that.

I thought about Grace all over again, about benefical acts extended out of the Divine,for no other motive than compassion to help someone in a plight who can't understand their way out of it by themselves. I realized that this was an act of Grace. I didn't get all ooey gooy mushy about it, I just faced it.

The songs I was playing were about that, but not the way i had listened to them before. I still dont know what i want to say or think about it, but it happened and i had a feeling you would relate to it. and you're still living in Miami, so I thought I'd tell you about it.

and any of you who want to throw up [ your hands or anything else] to hear me say this, can do so. I don;'t know what to tell you except that it happened out of nowhere and stopped the pain and brought me out of it when nothing i could do would reach it. what was it? All i can tell you, is, i recognized it, as Knowledge. it wasnt worship or fantasy or that craven groveling we associate with prem pal singh rawat. it was the other thing. the change in the perception of existence and the touch of some being who wiped away the fears and showed me what i couldnt find by myself.

let the arguing begin, if you wish. i was there.

e

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 00:33:24 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I hear you Janet
Message:
In my private inmost convictions, I thought, There is a being who comes to me that i only know inside me, who showed me this, who came and found me and i know as Maharaji, but it is not that guy in malibu, and it will never incarnate as a flesh and blood person. I refuse to connect the two as one and the same. they are totally different beings. that guy in malibu doesnt know me or care what hapens to me. but the one who i identify as my benefactor, who has just come again and given this to me, here, now, again..i will recognize that as what i mean when i say maharaji. whoever or whatever this presence is, it has zero need or desire for drink, money, sex, power, things, status,tricks, personal anything. it only comes to help me, and I never know when. If it gives me another name to call it, I will use that.

Precisely. I think this is a good example of being able to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. All power to you Janet because I believe for many this is the way forward - and it is not easy to dissociate this from Maharaji who we have associated with the emotions for so long. Not without reason.

All that said, I applaud your strength to be able to stand alone again and say - fuck it - I am not going to let this persuade me that I owe deference to this guy who although he seemed to play a part in the revelation, also is putting me off it badly!

You express an emotional response to life that is childlike - a longing for something - maybe you picked up on that from the meaningful silence of your son and that brought on this attack of inspiration - opened the floodgates. My experience is that it is my intent that triggers knowledge experience - not just going through the motions.

In some ways I compare my experience of Knowledge and Maharaji with the experiences I had with Mescaline and LSD aged 15.

I was also then coming out of the trauma of school and etc. and was seeking God. My initial response to the huge revelation of pschedelics was one of massive enthusiasm which was dampened only after about 50 trips and I started to feel that there were some undesirable side effects.

So I went on to seek a way to naturally get high - of course Maharaji and knowledge fulfilled this neew need for many years. Seemed and may have been the answer to a prayer - My enthusiasm for Maharaji and Knowledge started to wane gradually when, having trusted him implicitly and surrendered, left me (to cut a long story short ) deeply unhappy and confused.

I no longer derived the same benefit and Maharaji was if anything putting me off the knowledge (very much as you describe in your recent experience) that I had at first cherished.

After rejecting the whole trip I found myself needing a period of 'lonesomeness' again wherein I could get back in touch with the 'Inner child' who I once had been - and whose longing originally motivated me. After a lot of anger and seeing through the crap I find myself doing some meditation and again focussing on that small sincere voice of intent that is the only voice I truly trust.

This is between me and my God - without a guru in between. I rung Glen Whittaker a while back and in our conversation I said to him - 'Listen.. this whole thing is about trust' He agreed ..I went on - 'The fact is that at first I loved the Knowledge experience and that gave me trust in Maharaji - so I did what he said - surrendered - the whole nine yards - I ended up miserable - realised that he was fallible - he didn't care so much about me as I had imagined - I felt my potential wasted - my enthusiasm treated with cynicism - angry - as if my life had been put on hold for most of my youth and I could never Regane those lost years - and guess what?

my trust was eroded -

NATURALLY - So now I am expected to WALK - don't criticise - not to talk about it - forget what happened - brush 20 years of my life under the carpet and join the queue of people, waiting STILL in line to be given their part to play.'

For a moment Glen was lost for words - then he said 'Pity - if you hadn't left, Maharaji would certainly be using you now - he needs musicians - he's really forging ahead and you could have been involved for sure - it's all really happening now - what a shame.'

I'm afraid the conversation reached a bit of an impasse at this juncture - I proposed that at the very least it would have been so healing for Maharaji to have acknowledged mine and others sincere sacrifices and dedications, and maybe said something like a little whispered 'sorry' or even have held a meeting - an ashram meeting even! to hear us out -

So anyway, I occasionally meditate, pray to the same ole' unknown God that I once begged to reveal himself all those tear-drenched years ago - and get a beautiful response sometimes - but I - like Janet - cannot trust the man who put me through so much apparently pointless grief - who engendered a fear in me that drowned my experience- my trusting inner child. (fuck off Gerry- I know this talk makes you puke)

It's a matter of integrity.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:20:33 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Oh and another thing...
Message:
he said was 'Well, not everybody likes Maharaji as a man - thats' Ok - he is not offering himself he is offering Knowledge - Maharaji said once 'You are not receiving me you are receiving my Knowledge' - I happen to love him and think he's doing a great job of spreading this wonderful, beautiful Knowledge to this world and I don't see anyone else doing that'

My question - ok so I 'don't like him' because he shoved me in a boring ashram for the best part of my youth - maybe I don't 'like him' because I am one of the females he ...ed and forgot, maybe I am somebody who he bawled out and put the fear of God into when he was drunk, etc etc. So I 'don't like him ' but hey..aren't these pretty damn reasonable reasons for losing ones trust -to stop going to see the guy and have to listen to his every word - to question his whole authority and heirarchy- in short to stop practicing Knowledge and slip back (apparently) into the outer darkness that we have been so repeatedly warned of??

What kind of a loving Master puts INSURMOUNTABLE hurdles in the path of his students so as they fail their tests and feel outcast whilst he congratulates those who remain? Those who remain simply because they never got so severely tested and who now choose to turn a blind eye to the sufferings he inflicted on some of their more trusting and committed fellow students, becaus ethey are too damn scared of this Victorian Master.

No wonder the analogy was offered that these ex-premies are like naughty, rebellious students who stand outside the Master Class chucking stones at the window and jeering at the Master. The inference being that by criticising Maharaji, we still acknowldge that he is the Master and we are somehow just suffering from a bad, disrespectful attitude. The other inference being that he is so kind to tolerate us -I mean he could have us whipped!

I have received some criticism from premies who object to my frank postings. One premie used some revealing words to scold me - I was summarily described as 'impudent' and ' audacious' and even 'dangerous' and 'undermining'.

These are the sort of words that are only used by people who think that the person I am supposedly daring to be so impudent towards, deserves some kind of fawning respect. Of course that is exactly the sort of respect this master gets - fawning respect.

At my school the masters who accused rebellious students of 'impudence' and 'audacity' or of being 'dangerous' or 'undermining' generally were themselves arrogant, afraid of confrontation because they had no answers, superior and generally not prepared to make any effort to understand or admit to any mistakes. In short - dreadful teachers.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:03:25 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Oh and another thing...
Message:
Patrick:

Great post, especially this:

What kind of a loving Master puts INSURMOUNTABLE hurdles in the path of his students so as they fail their tests and feel outcast whilst he congratulates those who remain? Those who remain simply because they never got so severely tested and who now choose to turn a blind eye to the sufferings he inflicted on some of their more trusting and committed fellow students, becaus ethey are too damn scared of this Victorian Master.

And what sort of God would utilize such a teacher? Only one steeped in perversity. And the only way he could have played that role at all is due to the monumental inattentiveness of... well, us.

--Scott

[Hypothetical dialogue with a 'Knowledge Spreader,' after having been initiated.]

Person: So, how did you come by this stuff anyway?
Guru: It is an ancient Technique handed down through a long lineage of Perfect Beings, who then bequeath it on mankind.
Person: Well, thanks. Apparently no one ever thought of pressing their eyeballs with their fingers, huh? I'll let you know how it works out. Bye.

--Scott 'some phosphenes are just phosphenes' T.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:55:01 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Heroin, Rumi and Babbitt
Message:
Anti-drug programs/lectures/articles often make the mistake of telling you all the bad things about drugs while leaving out - if not the GOOD things, at least the reasons why people take drugs. This leaves the impression that the anti-drug messenger doesn't know what he's talking about. He's just a pedantic propagandist.

This site can be like that, as we know. All the bad things about DLM/EV/Knowledge/'the experience,' few of the good things.

The fact is, heroin feels great - at first, anyway. Hallucinogens can make you feel like you're privy to some fab new insights about how the world works. 'Knowledge' can fulfill the functions of both opiates and psychedelics. First, all other problems and concerns fade away due to the overwhelming need to focus on ONE thing (smack, Knowledge). Secondly - remember the feeling you got from taking acid: that you had some special knowledge that all the straight people didn't? Yeah. Pretty similar, huh.

I have some great memories of life with the Satguru, too. In a park in Grand Rapids, I saw Him in a vision.

At a festival in Kansas City when I made a token prayer of gratitude for the sandwich in my lap, in the midst of a confused funk, Grace came down and flooded my soul.

Driving back from Montreal in my oil-guzzling slant-six push-button-transmission '63 Dodge, up and down the hot and humid rolling hills of the Midwest, a cooling breeze came to me out of nowhere, and I knew it was Guru Maharaj Ji.

There were many more beautiful moments, and many many more small epiphanies on the meditation cushion or in front of the satsang mic, etc.

How many of these experiences were truly divine and how many depended on the infantile emotional dependence on the father figure fostered by the cult? What is the difference between these two things? These are things we might think about when we remember those moments.

We mostly agree here that the source of these experiences is either A) the Divine or B) the brain, but definitely not C) Prem Pal Rawat.

Beyond that, our experiences are as diverse as can be. The Big Lie that we were all having the same Experience was the big lie that kept us feeling that we were all brothers and sisters. in Father's family, to use lingo from another cult.

Yes, many of us had good experiences back then. It seems to me that those of us who still believe in spiritual practice are having better, deeper, fuller, truer experiences now that we have de-dogmatized ourselves.

This morning, in a lucid dream, flying, I spun and spun on all different axises...kinda like that 50's model of an atom we know from the symbol for nuclear energy...and the bliss was overpowering.

Now, I'm at work, killing time until one o'clock when lunch is over and I can photocopy some literary analysis for my AP Lit students and some stuff on the 20's for some background for Babbitt, which my American Lit students are about to start.

Standing in front of my class, or sitting down with my family I have no sense at all that I have some sort of 'special knowledge' that separates me from them. I used to have that sense. Thank God I don't feel that way now!

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 02:57:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Setbacks always possible so long as K looms large
Message:
It appears that those of us who've thrown out the baby and the bathwater have a simpler time dealing with these inevitable nostalgic flashbacks. Look, if I wanted to I could, I think, put myself back to a certain time, a certain vibe, a memory, something unworldly, a wish, a prayer. How about the excitement I felt those nights after satsang back in the earliest days (early for me, that is)? Sitting on the steps of the ashram, waiting for my fellow cosmic travellers to join me for coffee at Denny's where we'd be so damned giddy with what we could tell was happening on the planet. Close your eyes, breathe in deep and know, just know, that that was Maharaji, directing the play from the inside as surely as the outside.

Now, though, I've decided a few things. One is that K is a mirage. Forget about any subjective assessment of the experience (as if we could ever guage anything about it anyway!), on a simple, practical level I simply refuse to believe that the creator of the universe planted some secret portals to cosmic truth in people in the form of reverse senses and then disclosed that fact to a bunch of pre-scientific hindu's. Uh UH! Ain't happening. Not for me, at least.

And that's just the beginning.

As far as I'm concerned, Knowledge, or whatever you want to call it, is bust. There is no secret ribbon of consciousness running up and down our breath like a divine love track or something. There is no 'divine light' visible only to the 'third eye'. There is no 'divine music', either on the right or the left and I sure don't believe that the creator filled us with a secret fluid, an elixir of love and purity, a real live fountain of youth or whatever.

Fuck all that shit. Knowledge is bunk and so long as people don't come to terms with that the door's wide open for hocus pocus re-assessments of the guy who, don't forget, gave 'it' to you.

By the way, ever see Dirk Bogarde and Charlotte Rampling in 'The Night Porter'? I've mentioned it before but it seems pretty relevant to this issue. People can nostalgize anything. In the movie, it was life as a sex slave to an SS officer in a concentration camp. Here, it was the experience of trying to be human sacrifice.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:44:45 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not just
Message:
Jim:

Fuck all that shit. Knowledge is bunk and so long as people don't come to terms with that the door's wide open for hocus pocus re-assessments of the guy who, don't forget, gave 'it' to you.

That door's wide open in most of us anyway, and just waiting for the right trigger... [mixed metaphor, but anyway] whether it's religous or political or ethnic or whatever. Hell, there was an entirely atheistic ideology that had people hooked in for the better part of a century. So, my guess is you haven't thrown all the babies out yet because you haven't found them. They'll grab at anything that sparkles just in case you want to go baby hunting and are looking for some bait. Don't feed the little bastards regularly and you'll be alright.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 18:51:15 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Knowledge v. Meditation
Message:
Jim,

I think for those of us who were steeped in the 'devotion' crap, it's really hard, if not impossible, to separate the 'devotion crap' and Maharaji himself, from the meditation techniques. I know I can't, and I have no intention of ever even trying. Plus, I never got anything out of the meditation techniques anyway, so big whoop. No problemo throwing out the baby.

But what about people in the 'knowledge lite' period? At least some of them claim they never felt all that much 'devotion' to Maharaji, don't believe the meditation is a 'connection' to any consciousness other than calming down their thinking and giving them some kind of practice to focus on? At least they say they just dont' like Maharaji anymore, that he is a lousy master, that he is a disgusting person, and they don't want to be associated with him. But the techniques, they like.

I think if people can make the separation, they shouldn't be told that HAVE to reject a meditation practice that they perhaps have grown to appreciate over the years. I mean it might be easier to continue doing the meditation you like, then have to start all over with TM or something. Isn't that at least possible?

Joe

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 17:59:36 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bullshit!
Message:
You wrote:

'Setbacks always possible so long as K looms large'

I'm assuming you're referring to the nostalgic reveries Janet and I were indulging in. To suggest that because we still value spiritual experience we are liable to end up at Rawat's feet at any minute is fucking ridiculous. We don't have to interpret the world the same way you do in order to reject Rawat's supposed divinity wholly and for forever!

You wrote:

'Knowledge is bunk and so long as people don't come to terms with that the door's wide open for hocus pocus re-assessments of the guy who, don't forget, gave 'it' to you.'

'Knowledge' as 'given' by 'Guru Maharaj Ji' is, indeed, 'bunk.'
Some of us believe that our (admittedly) subjective mystical experiences have merit. (For us. I've never tried to convince you that you should meditate, Jim. I've never tried to convince you that my world view is less ridiculous than yours. Can you make the same non-prostlyetizing claims about your posts here?)

And, again, your assertion that meditatators are on the verge of re-assessing GMJ is insulting. Sitting on a zafu quieting my mind may be a waste of time, but it doesn't make me stupid.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 17:47:49 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Right On, Jim!
Message:
Great post. I'm with Jim on this one. I simply do not understand how people can glorify and value Knowledge and M's techniques and still call themselves an ex-premie. There's way too much connection to M, it's all too tied up.

Michael Dettmers, in a thread below, talks about the types of meditation he does these days. It IS possible to still do meditation, and still have an experience of something higher than ordinary reality. But I still firmly maintain that to make the break with M it is necessary to leave behind the meditation he teaches (kriya yoga to Patrick and Charles) to fully become ourselves and step into the sunlight out of the murky morass of devotion/confusion that practicing 'Knowledge' was.

As Janet described, it IS possible to have a transcendental experience post Knowledge -- just don't attribute it to Knowledge or M in any way, and chuck the techniques for a complete and clean break from M. If I read correctly, Janet was listening to devotional tapes in order to get to the experience she had. So was the experience one of devotion or Knowledge itself? It's all intimately connected, and as Michael Dettmers explained, THAT is what Maharaj is offering and what ties people to him. Learn to access it in other ways. They are out there. To continue to practice Knowledge techniques, and then attribute any resulting experience to Knowledge is to continue to attribute it to Maharaji, if even unconsciously, and we all know where that leads.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 19:03:38 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Right On, Jim!
Message:
Hi Joy. As I said to Jim, I think for those of us who were indoctrinated in the Maharaji cult that 'Knowledge' really was 'DEVOTION,' like Michael said, you really do have to get rid of everything associated with it in order to break free. Like I said to Jim, for me it wasn't even a question.

But people like Chuck claim they never were indoctrinated into that, and like doing the meditation, and don't believe there is any connection in it, it isn't cosmic, or anything else.

I must say, given my experience as a premie, I am highly skeptical of that point of view. But maybe it's possible.

Also, I think people might leave the cult in stages. Someone might reject Maharaji, but want to keep the techniques for awhile, so they don't have to think it was ALL a complete waste.

The problem I have with that is that I was indoctrinated in the cult that MAHARAJI was what it was all about and KNOWLEDGE was secondary. So, I was able to reject KNOWLEDGE, which I got nothing out of anyway, before I could reject MAHARAJI.

Do you guys think it might be possible to leave the cult the other way around? Reject Maharaji first, and then knowledge, or maybe not reject the meditation at all? I wonder.

Does this make any sense? Since I met Patrick and Chuck recently, I have been thinking about this.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 21:16:58 (GMT)
From: Charles S
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Jim and Joy are right...
Message:
... in so far as only they know what is right for THEM. No one can tell them they are wrong for themselves. I wouldn't try to.

I also think that we all have to decide what is best for ourselves, based on our own exprience.

I was shocked when I discovered the techniques were from Kriya Yoga. Was I practicing Kriya Yoga for 20 years, and didn't even know it?

But after reading up on Kriya Yoga, it was interesting to find people often did it without aid of a guru or master, but I also found that many people teach it with all kinds of religious baggage attached. So I doubt that I've really been doing Kriya Yoga as such. The Kriya yoga people bore me to tears. A cure for insomnia. Yuck!

Joe said:
Do you guys think it might be possible to leave the cult the other way around? Reject Maharaji first, and then knowledge, or maybe not reject the meditation at all? I wonder.

M's 'Knowlege' is a package deal, with heavy emphasis on devotion. So I don't use that word anymore. I have rejected the package deal. What I do is meditation, just sitting quietly. I've used the term 'Kriya Yoga' sometimes, because I didn't want to use the 'Knowlege/package deal' term. But really, it's just plain old meditation.

I don't think the techniques are overly important. If others are uncomfortable with those particular techniques, so be it. I wouldn't try to change anyones mind. To each his own.

Janet's post didn't bother me. She separated her experience from the little guy in Malibu. Despite listening to the devotional tapes. Good for you, Janet.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 19:36:50 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, Right On, Jim and Joy!
Message:
Jim and Joy are correct. When people use words like ''Knowledge'' or ''grace'' they are indeed falling into the quagmire of subjective nonsense of which Mahara-jism is a prime example. Usually these words are used to describe the opposite of negative emotions such as ''panic attacks'' or fear or depression. They would be better off using ordinary everyday words such as ''calmness'' or ''sanity.''

Janet has been very honest about her mental problems and I can relate because I also was pretty fucking crazy when I got sucked into the cult. In fact as I mentioned to you, Joe, the other night, when I first met you I was ''freaked out'' (culture shocked - a stranger in a strange land - as well as cult shocked by the dysfunctionality I saw in the US ashrams) and I covered that up with a false bravado when I was not with friends.

I would give the same advice as Jim and Joy to others who cannot think of their subjective experiences in any other terms except those of the cult. Chuck's and my case in not unique but it is fairly unusual. The fact that I did the kriyas before meeting Rev Rawat prevented me from ever thinking of them as his ''gift.'' The fact that I was already running a one man eDrek show when I met Chuck also helped him to see that Mahara-jism was a bunch of baloney.

Also Chuck and I have never relied solely on the techniques to attain mental health and to this day use other methods and have other teachers. Also I think it helped that we really had nothing to do with the cult for 18 years and took it with a healthy dollop of salt. (One day I'll show yu some of the photo-shop fun we had with the gooroo.)

We did not spend our 19 years together trying to convince each other that we were ''experiencing'' God or even the same thing. The big problem with continuing to ''practice Knowledge'' lies in thinking of it as more than what it is, attaching mystical mumbo-jumbo to it and believing somehow that it is the ''Knowledge of God.''

Kriya yoga is simply one of the techniques that I use for maintaining mental health, stress reduction and relaxation. All the other subjective ''experiences'' attributed to it are just that - subjective and of no more value than ''Alice in Wonderland'' or an LSD trip.

If you can't begin to think about meditation without resorting to Mahar-jism then throw it out because you are fooling yourself and holding back your intellectual growth.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:02:24 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: Thanks, Patrick and a suggestion
Message:
I think one thing people may be reacting to is the word 'kriyas.' I mean, you are saying the meditation has nothing to do with spiritual mumbo jumbo, but to most people, 'kriyas' sounds a lot like spiritual mumbo jumbo. It might be clearer to people, if you just referred to it as 'meditation.'

I'm willing to say that people may find something positive in 'meditation,' like relaxation, etc. I just think that if it's associated with Maharaji, it is frought with definition problems, partly because Maharaji always has been very sloppy in the way he talks, or perhaps he speaks in vaguries in order to 'wink wink' the unspoken devotion thing. I mean, these days you can listen to Maharaji and think, simultaneously in fact, that 'knowledge' is 1) four meditation techniques, 2) a path of spiritual revelations 2) the experience of anything good in your life, 3) devotion to Maharaji, 4) an entire life guided by the master. And these are just the beginning.

See, I think Maharaji's trip really is devotion and that has never changed, despite the new and improved way of presenting it.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:20:25 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks, Joe, you are right
Message:
I do not use the word ''kriya'' in my own circles and have only used it here because I thought the exes were familiar with the word from the exposes on the Rahdasoami cults.

Yes, to me, not only is Mahara-jism a bunch of baloney but so is all Hinduism and anything to do with religion, theology, God and all other fairy tales.

As you know I am only interested in one kinfd of fairy tail.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:56:26 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: PS Joe, kriya yoga = Hindu horse-shit
Message:
When I found out that ''Knowledge'' was called ''kriya yoga'' I researched it and found that all the kriya yoga gurus are just as primitive and intellectually stunted as Rev Rawat. Mahara-jism is just his particular brand of Hindu voodoo.

Eastern mysticism is a bunch of BS but, like Jim and you and I suspect all the other atheists here, I find western religions just as Neanderthal. How could a democratic, reasoning American believe in an infallible Pope who has to be propped up like a zombie for public appearances?

No, all religions are crap and, try as Rev Rawat may to claim that his ''Knowledge'' is not a religion, it is and he is the infallible Hindu Pope who has to be propped up by EV spin doctors and revisionists.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 21:39:35 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: PS Joe, kriya yoga = Hindu horse-shit
Message:
hi patrick
In a way ,i can understand what you say , about all
religions , that they are ,horse shit.
indeed the thing M let us into was very vrong,and for sure
he is a fraud.
And there is no reason to belive that all the major religions
where not started the same way as M``s
but if you take religions away, dont think of all the shools
of religion,hindu , buddha jesus, ect. ect.
If you take all that away, pretent you never even heard about it.
Now i dont want to put any moral thing on you or what you think
or belive .
But are you saying that their is no god ?
Are you saying that all our live is just spending time, in the
best way we can and that there is nothing to gain.?
This is just about having a good time , and nothing else?
things like that i am thinking about, right now i cant say what is rigth or wrong.

Best wishes Ulf

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:56:06 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Ulf, your question is too serious to answer now
Message:
I will save your post and answer you when I have the time to give it the attention that it deserves.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:35:04 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Ulf, is there a God and a purpose to life?
Message:
Hi Ulf,

You ask: In a way, I can understand what you say, about all religions, that they are horse shit. Indeed the thing M let us into was very wrong, and for sure he is a fraud.

And there is no reason to believe that all the major religions where not started the same way as M's but if you take religions away, don't think of all the schools of religion, hindu, buddha. jesus, etc etc. If you take all that away, pretend you never even heard about it.

Now I don't want to put any moral thing on you or what you think or believe. But are you saying that there is no god? Are you saying that all our life is just spending time, in the best way we can and that there is nothing to gain? This is just about having a good time, and nothing else? Things like that I am thinking about, right now I can't say what is right or wrong.

I answer: First, I see that English is a second language for you. My first language also was not English. My family lived in the Afrikaans-speaking Orange Free State province of South Africa and I grew up speaking that language. Then we moved to Zululand where the white people speak English and I had to learn English in school and Zulu also. Then I moved to England and had to learn to speak their kind of English and then to the USA where I had to learn to speak American English. And the church Latin that I learned was different from the Latin I learned in school. And opera Italian is very different from real Italian.

The words may be similar but there are big idiomatic differences. So I am very cautious when using words and there are words (such as GOD) in your question which have different meanings to different people. So first let me see if we both mean the same thing when we use the word GOD. By GOD I mean an invisible creator of this universe such as Yaweh or Allah not a human god such as Shiva or Dionysus.

I will say what I think you asked in MY words and you can tell me if I am wrong: ''Putting aside all religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Jesusism or Maharaj-jism, is there no GOD and no purpose or meaning to human life other than to just have a good time?''

I can only give you MY answer to that question.

The ancient Greek Hedonist philosophers believed, ''Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you may die.'' The Stoics believed that life was all suffering and that we had to ''grin and bear it.'' The Epicureans believed that there was a ''middle path'' between those two extremes. Each of them answered the question for themselves.

I do not ''believe'' in anything that I cannot see. So no, I don't believe in an invisible GOD like Allah. But I do think that it is possible that human intelligence is capable of understanding everything. The old theistic saying, ''man is created in the image of God'' is a poetical way of saying that. Hinduism and Dionysusism believe that human beings are capable of seeing GOD by raising the consciousness to ecstatic levels. Buddhists, Jainists and the ancient Greek philosphers believe that calm intelligent investigation can reveal the truth.

So I will take the best of all of those approaches and use it in my studies of the question but no, I do not have an answer yet. My answer would be that art, music, poetry and other forms of human creative endeavors bring me closest to the state of consciousness needed to understand the creation. If I look at religion not as a science but as an art (''poetry'') then I can see value in it.

I no longer look for enlightenment or ''truth'' or ''GOD'' and , if ever I find an answer for myself, I doubt that I would ever be so arrogant to then tell others that my answer was THE answer as Pope Rawat has done. For me, all I hope is that I die with no regrets, knowing that I did my best and was honest and did no harm to others.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 14:12:04 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: god
Message:
thanks for your answer, and yes you did understand my question
the way it was intended.
When i someday get the ``big picture `` togheter i will tell
you ,, right now it is a litlle unclear.

B.W.
Ulf

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:55:29 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Ulf, is there a God and a purpose to life?
Message:
Seems to me that human nature, and the boundries of it, and the
limitations we have all, provide something to read.
I say there is where we see evidence of a god.
Looking at all the ideas of god, and the evil that is done under those ideas about the god, and the good, tells me that the god is not as advertised.

I say that the prime motivator of the god is creativity.
The boundries we have make for the most amount of creativity
but also allow for a great deal of suffering.

If you were the god, you would want to have avenues of control
while allowing for the most creativity and freedom of action.
Also, .....well, I am not ready to present all the guesses as of yet.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 17:36:24 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Knowlegde
Message:
hi jim
I must say that this way of seeing the ``knowlegde``
as you just stated above, for me is kinda new
many people have told that they dont give anything for it
and dont think that it is anything good at all.
this is the first time i read WHY they feel like that
It is very interresting for me, a complete other way of
seeing the whole trip. ,,,,,I got to think...

Ulf

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:40:43 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Hitler, Rev Moon and the Fatguru.
Message:
Hi Gregg,

I think you can make a similar argument in defence of the Nazis. I mean, after all, they did lots of good things too didn't they? People probably made real good friends in the SS. There's the motorway system. The jet. The rocket. The political documentary. The great advances in technology that came from WW2. Of course, I'm not trying to play down the bad side, and deny the holocost happened, just trying to see it with a balanced viewpoint.

At some point you have to take a step backwards and try and see the big picture. Even if you made some good mates in the SS, and owned a Volkswagen in the 30s, and everyone went back to work for a while, still there's the little matter of World War 2 and the unimagineable suffering it caused- and is still causing.

It is taking me a long time to get a perspective on my involvement with Maharaji. Like you, and everyone, I had some great times and great laughs. I met some lovely people and made some dear friends. I did lots of meditation and had lots of experiences, but that doesn't justify the real aims of the movement we were involved in. Just as making pals in the Wermacht, and getting high singing marching songs, doesn't justify the invasion of Poland.

In the early 70s, gurus, meditation and yoga were trendy and cool. I'd scrambled my brains with psychedelics. Timothy Leary had said 'Find a guru.' We were on a Magical Mystery Tour.

Then, somewhere along the line it dawns on you, 'I'm in a cult.'

For a while you can kid yourself that you're not. Lots of the other followers are. But you're not. You're just into the 'Knowledge' and maybe the Master. You observe cultlike behaviour in others. But you have grown out of that. You're free and independent, taking the good, ignoring the crap.

But really we were kidding ourselves. We were no different from Moonies, Hare Krishnas, or Children of God.

Being in a cult is not healthy. We are becoming aware of why. Things like, 'We are deprived of freedom of thought. We are pumped and tickled for money. We are discouraged from thinking about our situation. We are discouraged from questioning the Master and his yoga techniques. We fear the consequences of leaving the cult and the Master. We are programmed to think about our experience in a particular way. There are lots more reasons. But it boils down to our opinion of sects like Moonies, Premies, HareKrishnas, their leaders and their officials and representatives. What do they give their followers? Is it healthy to be a Moonie? Even if you get lots of good Moonie pals, and have a deep, beautiful experience of the Heavenly Father (Rev Moon) and Heavenly Mother (Mrs Moon), or Maharaji and Durga Ji, or Krishna and a Gopi, or whatever.

If you're busting your britches for a deep spiritual experience, and giving your life to the Lord in Human form- the Rev Sung Yung Moon- chances are you will get blissed out now and again. You will experience that wonderful principle that Unifies the inner and outer, heaven and earth, the father and his son, the Reverend Moon and his followers.

It's all cult stuff. I want to rid myself of all of it as quickly as possible. I want to walk away from all of it and see what's left. It's already stolen enough of my life. I want the rest back for myself.

The Fatguru can shove his Knowledge up his arse.

My soul will continue to sing for joy, because I'm free again.

Anth the Krishna loving Moonie.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:42:37 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: But Anth ...
Message:
I meditate regularly and have never been part of a cult or religious ourganization of any kind.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 11:05:59 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: But Anth ...
Message:
Hi Stonor,

Good luck to you mate.

I feel like I'm leaving a sinking ship, and have no desire whatsoever sit on my arse and poke myself in the eyes for 20 minutes or whatever. I'd rather jump in a lifeboat and paddle like hell for shore.

As we all know, it's different strokes for different folks.

As John Lennon said, 'Whatever gets you through the night...'

Anth who gets through the night by slagging off cults and phoney gurus.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:19:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: But Anth ...
Message:
Ah, meditation - I remember it well, well sort of, ...

didn't it look something like:

this?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 08, 2001 at 12:52:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: That's very funny Chris. (nt)
Message:
LOL
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 18:16:36 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Mobutu, Father Divine and the Fatguru.
Message:
Great post. I agree about the cultish nature of our 'meditation group' and especially with the fact that I would have had the same 'blissful' experiences with the Moonies or the Krishnas or the Pentacostalists, or, even, to a certain extent, with the Socialist Workers' Party.

But perhaps I didn't fully express this, because you seem to think I made an 'argument' that DLM wasn't so bad, there were good things about it. I didn't make that argument at all.

If I had any point to my post at all, it was that acknowledging the good things that we felt in the cult is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if it leads to a clearer assessment of why we had these experiences.

By the way, your post reminded me of a dream I had Monday morning about a group of neo-Nazis. There was a cliff which, when looked at a certain way, seemed to look like Hitler, at least to these cultists. (Much like we used to see GMJ everywhere.) They had their secret hideout in a cave behind this cliff face.

They thought Hitler was swell, and, while not Holocaust deniers, had an elaborate rationalization for Hitler's treatment of the Jews. Without going into all the arcane details, it was quite a strange dream, not without its DLM parallels.

Gregg (not an apologist for charlatans of any stripe)

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 13:04:35 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Riding on a sleigh.
Message:
Hi Gregg,

I understand what you mean.

It's about two and a half years since I quit. If you read my journey, I think my view of things when I wrote it was nearer to what your views are at the moment.

I remember a couple of posts indicating the different stages you go through when you leave a cult.

I think I'm just starting my 'angry' phase. I wish I'd kept those posts about the stages of leaving, then I could see where I'm up to.

I used to want to be Mr Nice Guy, and expressed a lot of sympathy for Maharaji as a victim. But I don't see him like that any more. I'm calling in all my markers on him.

Leaving has been like a sleigh ride, once it starts it's best just to sit back and enjoy it. Everything seems to happen quite naturally, and whizz by with very little effort.

Anth the Crazed Anti-Guru Lunatic Foaming At The Mouth and Ranting, Running Around With A Pickaxe, looking for property belonging to the cult.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:48:11 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, welcome to the real party(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 17:54:28 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: \
To: janet..ever watchful
Subject: hey sandy you're not the only one still..
Message:
Nice one Janet. That was the experience of the 'whatever you call', Grace, god , the unnameable, the Higher Power, the source of life or maybe just one of those epiphanies of the good old Human Condition..
WHY WHY WHY do we always want to attribute it to an external source , agency or technique [Yes, me too].
Probably because we want it back.
But it only comes by itself or otherwise its a pale self induced version.
Love,
Tim
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 15:00:13 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: No, I don't want to pull you to peices
Message:
but, I always thought that our need to justify rawat and his no-liji can sometimes be overwhelming.

Sorry janet, but there is no such a thing as knowledge. You are who you are, a living feeling human being. To pretend that one day you gonna wake up an throw 20 years of your life just like that is a lie. It is not gonna happen.

My advice is, be strong, the only thing that is, is you you. Love that person and you won't need anyone to tell you about it.

Take care

Love

Salam

Rawatsucks

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:24:23 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: hey sandy you're not the only one still..
Message:
Not sure if this will help you, but I still sometimes enjoy some of them usic from 'that era' and also disassociate it from prempal.

Regards Jethro

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:37:12 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: It's a bit different for me....
Message:
My first service was singing devotional music--as an aspirant and after I received k. It's so hard for me to get those old songs out of my head sometimes.

Before I rejected M, and would long for him, I would play old devotional music and it would tear my heart apart, which, of course, I considered the gopi in me crying for my lord.

I think that music is the most powerful art form when it comes to touching our unconsciousness or consciousness. It pulls our hearts to the surface; sometimes bringing comfort, sometimes bringing pain. It triggers memories. I makes us cry, laugh, and is more accessible than any other form of art.

Music has always been used in religions and cults, everywhere, really. That's why now, when I hear songs that our premie band played (the popular tunes we covered from real life bands) I feel kind of sick. Yet, in the context of BEING a premie, the songs were beautiful. Now, they are off-limits to me, except when I feel like making up new, irreverent words to them. That's fun!

I have so many music tapes which I keep in an out of the way place that requires me to move boxes to get to them. I have to take care not allow myself to be pulled into the melancholia (sp?) those songs produce in me because I tend to dissociate, not disassociate--quite a difference. Even the songs which I wrote for M cannot be revised into ''regular'' songs, so I've let them go. That, I consider to be a rip-off of my creativity, but so be it. I am luckier to be out of the cult than have a few songs to play and sing...

But, that's just me...
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:51:47 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Rip-off.
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

I feel the same way about music. I play a bit. Occasionally I sing one of the old devotional songs- they seem really funny nowadays- 'Satguru, your face is like the sun- giving light to shine on everyone.' By the time I get to, 'The way to liberation through you has come', my wife and are are both cracking up.

I also write poetry, and have, like you with your songs, trashed those devotional poems I couldn't rework and salvage. You put it very well, saying you felt your creativity had been ripped off.

take care

anth hears telly calling

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:56:31 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: It's a bit different for me....
Message:
Hi Cynthia

I have only really gotten into music the last couple of years and have found that the experiences I had listening to devotional music is a subset of something much larger that is available and unconditional. I now understand why music has been used since time-immemeorial to 'heighten the spirit'. Anyway I am hust a learner at the moment.

I am still in the process of discovery so am a bit bobbly in explaining myself.

I have to say that it is a breath of fresh air for my psyche to have ppsr out of it. When I see pictures of him now, all I see is a man in a suit(or whatever). It's almost strange because I used to 'Him' in everything and believe he was in everything(sort of male gopi-type).

And that's just me...

Love to you too

Jethro

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 00:23:09 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: |
To: Jethro
Subject: It's a bit different for me....
Message:
Hi Jethro. Music is the food of the soul for me too. It brings me higher and out of myself quicker than anything else. It's the language of the gods alright.
Tim , the late developer and thus so much to look forward to
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:43:37 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: It's a bit different for me....
Message:
Hi Jethro,

My early childhood days were spent singing and day-dreaming of pianos to play. I bought my first piano at age 16 after I worked for it. My mother saved all of the lives of her daughters by being uniquely and deeply connected to her infants. She sang all the time and music abounded in our house, including a lot of ethnic Polish stuff:))Polka!!

My newest neice and nephew, 2-1/2 and 9 months old, have learned to sing because my mother (and my sister) just sing to them all the time. Old polish lullabies that I remember from toddlerhood. My 78 year old Ma, with Alzheimers, can't remember yesterday from today and she has a beautiful voice that when Anna, my 2-1/2 neice goes ''Grandma, sing a song,'' my Mother just sings and laughs and they all giggle. It was my life's saving grace, music.

When I met my husband, about 9 months after I left the ashram in 1981, he showed me how utterly limited my knowledge and experience of music was.

I'd studied opera, then I became a premie singer. Of course I loved popular music, but he expanded my world of music with his extensive jazz collection (which is now after 19 years together, just about pushing US out of the house). He gave up on LPs and replaced his entire collection with CDs. But not only that...he loves all music, as long as the music is good to him. From broadway soundtracks to the blues, all the 60's movement era to Mozart to country, my life with music has changed.

When I bought a Visions CD of the classical guitarist, I was still in love with M--1999. I kept looking at Tom looking for a reaction and there was none. Bad. When I had listened to it with died-in-the-wool premies, it had sounded a lot better. When I listened to it with Tom, I heard how amateurish is was. He kind of said, yeah, that's nice, let's listen to Andre Segovia now.

So, in my ups and down in my love for music, which is my life's first love, I have separated out the Rot from it all. It's just those old devotional ones I keep at bay.

Bye,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:11:04 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: a couple of questions janet
Message:
hi janet,

I found myself being wooed back to the cult just reading your letter (someone get me a standing order, quick). Must be the power of satsang (just when you thought it was safe to become human again.)

So, I have a couple of questions for you.

You said, 'it happened out of nowhere and stopped the pain and brought me out of it when nothing i could do would reach it. what was it? All i can tell you, is, i recognized it, as Knowledge. it wasnt worship or fantasy or that craven groveling we associate with prem pal singh rawat. it was the other thing. the change in the perception of existence and the touch of some being who wiped away the fears and showed me what i couldnt find by myself.'

Let's see if I got it right. You were feeling OK. You bathed your son. You put on a tape of devotional music. Then you started to tell him about when you were a premie.

The next thing, something happened, you experienced 'knowledge' and 'stopped the pain.' What pain Janet? I thought you were having a nice, fun, quality time with your child?

You said the touch of some being wiped away your fears. What were you afraid of? It sounded to me like you were having an OK time with your son. Do you experience fear very often in your life? What were you afraid of after the shower?

And finally, my last question, 'What is Knowledge?'

For a long time I used the word 'Knowledge' in the same way as I used the word 'God'. Knowledge was an experience of 'God within.' And the words were interchangeable. Now I don't see it like this.

If I want to describe 'Knowledge' nowadays, I do a technique and experience it, then try and describe what I feel. I don't have a set of beliefs supporting the experience and putting it in a divine context.

So, what I'm poking at here Janet, is, 'Is there a difference between your belief about what you experience, and what the experience actually is?' This is why I asked you the question, 'What is Knowledge?'

Anth who was there too (for 25 years).

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 10:04:04 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: a couple of questions janet
Message:
ok- the time line is out of kilter. let me state it again more cleanly:

superbowl sunday after dark i break a tooth while chewing a cracker. no ER or dentist will see me. the tooth is split in two and adhering to both sides of my flesh. it won't pull out or fall out. it will need surgery to remove. so i bind it back together with dental floss and my son--age 22-offers to go to the all night drugstore and buy me a football mouthguard to keep me from grinding my teeth in my sleep and possibly aspirating the fragments into my lungs.

this is the third tooth i have had break on me like this in the last three years. it scares me.

monday i set out for a dentist down the block who agreed to let me come for emergency treatment. i am scared because i knw they are going to see the other broken one i havent had fixed since august. my dentist of 6 years has moved away and i'm a year overdue or more for work i needed done.

the unexpected experience of 'grace' occurs on my way to the office. i am emotionally shaken in a way i hae never tried to handle, as i set out the door to go. i think maybe it was from the crushing recognition that i am getting old and falling apart, and theres no running away from it. i am mentally unable to quell the various thoughts i am having that are popping up and panicking me. beneath those, there is an emotion weilling up like grief, with no words to it, that is so powerful as to drag at mfeet and not want me to go another step further. i am walking slower and slower, while my mind is straining harder and harder to make me get to that dentist on time or i wont be seen. none of my usual past methods for calming my fear are working. i take a detour into the park and try just shutting my eyes as i walk.that usually works to cut off my mind from its anxieties i think it spins them out of the constant perils of living in gang territory in los angeles. 'out of sight, out of mind'. but that attempt fails.

on the far side of the park, back on the main road to the office, i see the chair on the curb, and sit down on it. i am freaking. spectres are looming in my mind's eye on every side, about not being abke to stop whats hapenning to me: teeth breaking, osteoporosis setting in, weight climbing, hair greying,heart disease on my father;s side, cancer on my mother's, 50th birthday a year away. have no doctor, no dental care, no mammogram,papsmear, physical exam, ran out of antianxiety meds days back.
i am not here. i am in the future, a whole series of futures, and each one is terrible and i run from it to the next.

what i refer to as Knowledge means a state of no active preoccupation, distraction, or obligation. it came from somwhere other than my will at the time. something that was not me just came into me--liken it to a cool shadow falling across oneself at the height of a blistering sentence in the heat. or to a soundproof membrane descending over me, in the midst of being hemmed in o all sides by a deafening din. it was not something i did. it was done to me. i did not give the order to do it.
when it came n, in one breath, all of that anguish and preoccupation i was obsessing on,just vaporized into nothing. instead somehow i realized how all around me was simple and fresh, as virginal as when i was a child. i only felt this at rare peak moments in my 27 years of 'being' a premie, and that is the state i am calling Knowledge. i was aware of my breath and of the sudden silence of my panicked thoughts.the trees sighed. birds chirped. the wind blew. but no thoughts were present.and in the moment, i felt someone of a greater, benevolent presence, pointing my attention to this and seeming to ask me 'see? this is your rightful state'.

to be contd. i must sleep.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:23:07 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: a couple of questions janet--cont'd from last
Message:
so we have superbowl sunday, panic on the way to the emrgency dentist on monday, and an unlooked for gift while seated on an old armchair on the curb, halfway there.we have freakout being hushed by a wordless something that acted out of the breath.we have me staring around at everything and blinking as i see everything around me as though for the first time. and me remembering that this is how i always perceived the world in my deepest premie days, years ago.and i felt someone there . i was not alone.okay- fast forward. a week later maybe.i open a parcel i ordered and here's this white long dress like the sisters wore in the ashrams. i take it into the bathroom to steam out the packing wrinkles while my 22 year old son is showering. i start telling him about Holi and what we used to wear. he loves it when i tell him stories of my life. when he turns off the water, I repair to my room. he goes to towel off and dress. I am still musing on my surprise experience from monday, but only when i have spare moments in which to do so.i feel a desire to go put on my old premie music tapes. i do so. my son comes in dressed in a white moroccan robe, to lay on my bed and listen to the old music with me, while i sing and put away laundry.now can you make sense of my original?
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 15:44:15 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: a couple of questions janet
Message:
Janet:

You mentioned that you ran out of anti-anxiety meds days ago, so perhaps that's what's causing your distress. It sounds to me like you were having a monster anxiety attack (I occasionally suffer panic attacks, and yours sounds similar), and that perhaps you were ascribing your relief from your anxiety to M & K. After being inculcated in the cult for 27 years, it would be a force of habit that would allow you to think that M & K is what is providing you relief, when perhaps it is just the forces of brain chemistry or nature at work. I am certainly not trying to minimize your pain at all, and I hope you don't think that that is the case.

If you're looking for a good dentist, you might want to check out Richard Willis on Main Street in SM (one block north of Ocean Park, so it's close to Venice). His number is 310 392 8313.

I hope you're feeling better.
M

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 11:05:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: questions questions questions
Message:
Hi janet,

Thanks for your response.

You forgot to answer my questions- about what you were afraid of and what is Knowledge.

From your post above, another question jumps out. You say,

'the unexpected experience of 'grace' occurs on my way to the office'.

I don't know what you mean by 'grace'. Would you explain it please? What is it? Where does it come from? How do you recognise it? Do you think it has anything to do with the Fatguru and his meditation techniques?

Anth the quizmaster.


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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 17:02:02 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: a couple of questions janet
Message:
Hi Janet,
As you know, shipster needs assistance at times removing fantasy lord rawat from any kindness life may have extended him.
That IS the issue that takes the longest. I know.

As you also know, lots of others have spiritual 'leaders' and lord incarnates and they also find themselves in this dilemma.
You are pretty confident THIER lord is false just like our own lord turned out to be.

So how to explain the apparent reponse life had to us?
After reviewing the 3 options that seem to be the choices in beliefs, that either it is an unconcious oneness, like many think, or conciousness sprang from matter, or there is a god,
I think I can make the case fairly sufficiently to at least my own satisfaction, that evidence points to there being a god of sorts.

But, not as advertised by all it's experts out there.
Seems like our experiences are part self created and part interaction with a conciousness that gets off to some extent on attention.

As you can see by looking around, the place is a mess of conflicts about the stupid god issue. All the more reason to
call for a more accurate advertisement about the nature of this playing field of life and where and how power is divied up.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 17:58:43 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: nice one Bill nt
Message:
whoaaaaa
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 06:37:11 (GMT)
From: Jesse
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Fall 1972
Message:
Around December 1971, I was staying in Venice, Califoria, in a red house called the Fire Temple. I'd come to LA that summer, after a long trip On The Road with my guitar and water colors, and I was depressed and disgusted by the shallow glitz of the LA music scene. I couldn't stand to play anything remotely commercial, whether rock, country or even blues. Then one afternoon I heard George Harrison's 'My Sweet Lord' on the radio, and really got into an Eastern raga thing for a couple of days. Soon after that, the candlemakers who ran the house decided to take me to visit ISKON temple in Culver City.
I was amazed by the temple and the devotees were eager to have me join them, so I stayed. I put on the yellow robe and started chanting, dancing, and eating the Vedic diet. When I went out on the streets, I ran into my former music contacts, and they offered me the opportunity to bring the devotees on stage at the next Griffith Park Free Concert. When I passed this offer along to the heads of the ashram, however, they were noticeably cool about it, perhaps testing me (they wouldn't let me shave my head either.) When the day came, only a few of the most tone-deaf, arhythmic devotees accompanied me in the van to the concert. All the way there, these devotees were less than enthusiastic about bringing the divine sound of the name of Krishna before thousands of people, griping, 'Why do you want to chant for those ignorant bikers and drug-takers?' In fact, while I was arranging the stage logistics, they split with the van, with my guitar still in it, back to the temple, and left me stranded there alone in the middle of the concert.
I walked over to a picnic table under some trees far from the stage, and there who should I meet, playing a flute, but a beautiful art student from UCLA whom I'd first met at the Moonfire Inn in Topanga Canyon several months ago. We were very glad to see each other, and she drove me back to the temple in her parents' mobile home. There, I chucked the robe, picked up my guitar and knapsack, and left with her.
We stayed together for a couple of months, hanging out at UCLA, meeting Jan Berry and Arthur Miller, filming in the desert, and so forth. But when she'd finished her portrait of me, it ended, and I was out on the street again.
So there I was in January 1972, standing with my guitar and knapsack on a cold, wet street in downtown LA, wondering what was next. I'd just spent my last dime on a phone call to an answering machine. Somewhere, a radio was playing 'It Never Rains in Southern California.' But it WAS raining, and it was getting darker.
Suddenly, a passing van stopped, the doors opened, and voices called out to me, 'Jesse!' It was the Hare Krishnas from Culver City, and they looked delighted to find me. I got in.
This time they let me shave my head, and I spent four or five months of almost constant chanting, dancing, the Vedic diet, and daily study of the Veda in Sanskrit. I was deeply immersed in Krishna. But on some level, I'd begun to suspect that not a few of the devotees in the Culver City Temple were ex-cons, using the temple as a convenient safehouse. A group of them bullied me into throwing my watercolored journals from the Road into the trash, on the grounds that I was 'attached' to them and it would be good for me to let go of my attachment. They wanted me to trash my twelve-string, too, but there was no way I could part with that precious instrument.
Then came the yearly RathaYatra festival in San Francisco. I distringuished myself with an inspired fit of onstage super-devotional guitar-thrashing and chanting, and afterwards was told that I was being assigned to the fledgling Santa Cruz temple. This turned out to be one other devotee, a huge, seemingly almost brain-dead fellow. who wore big white athletic socks under his sandals and lived with his mother. I hung out near the park by the magnolia trees, picking out variations on Hare Krishna on the twelve-string in diminished 9ths, and routinely was stopped by people who asked me what in the name of God I thought I was doing.
Only one person, who kept showing up, day after day, seemed to understand perfectly. He never questioned. Instead, he told me stories about Krishna - new ones, unlike anything I'd heard in Prabhupad's books. Stories with a strange mystical flavor, where Krishna was always referred to as 'The Blue Boy.' Finally I asked him, since he had this knowledge of Krishna, why wasn't he a devotee? He answered that whereas I was only worshiping a statue, an icon, he had met Krishna in the flesh - the living present-time incarnation of Krishna, a 13-year old perfect master named Guru Maharaj Ji.
This was way too much, and when he told me that one of GMJ's Mahatmas was going to be visiting Santa Cruz the next week, I excitedly told the other devotee that we simply had to check this out. He of course freaked, afraid of censure from the ISKON authorities, and would have nothing to do with it. But I could hardly sleep until the day the Mahatma arrived. I went to the meeting eagerly, yellow robe, guitar, and all, and heard about 'the knowledge.' Afterwards, the Mahatma took me aside and played me a tape of Indians singing and playing music for GMJ. It had a profound effect on me, and I took the plunge.
I received 'the knowledge,' which frankly didn't impress me that much, but I went along with it anyway despite the cognitive dissonance. All I really cared about now was meeting Krishna in person, no matter what the cost. For the next month, I travelled with the Mahatma as his personal musician, singing and playing for various gatherings of premies. It was wonderful to be able to wear ordinary clothes again, and to be able to sing anything I wanted. Finally, around the end of September 1972, I wound up in Marin County, staying with premies who took me to Mt. Tamalpais and Point Arena. Then I opened for Guru Maharaj Ji's big event at some Auditorium in San Francisco. I played Cat Steven's 'Peace Train,' and afterwards was given a private audience with him. I prostrated myself before him and offfered him my guitar and journals, and gave them back with the blessing 'Use these in my service.' Afterwards, the Mahatma told me that GMJ had a message for me. I was to go back with the Mahatma to the temple in LA, and purchase a ticket to India. Krishna himself had invited me to his palace in the Kashmir Valley, where his brother would teach me the sitar.
I went back to LA with the Mahatma, got a room in a cheap hotel, and looked in the want ads for a job where I could get paid daily. What happened then is another story that I won't go into now.
I just want to ask, does anyone in this forum remember me?
Jesse
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:26:50 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Jesse
Subject: Fall 1972
Message:
>I just want to ask, does anyone in this forum remember me?

Ms C in SC?
Ever play the Troubador?

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 03:00:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: X
Subject: ARE YOU CHRIS DICKEY OR NOT?
Message:
Hey, X, I've tried to ask you this before but you keep ignoring me. That won't work because, like I said before, Chris Dickey posted here for a couple of years. There's no way that I can accept that someone, whether it's CD or anyone, can simply take on a new identity, tell no one, and start up all over again. That is pure bullshit.

Now are you CD or not?

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 07:17:09 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: xter
Message:
No, Donald Trump embarking on a new run.

That subtle warmth exuding from Jim after all the years.
No mistaking a landmark of logic - g!
I'm moving forward towards that star.
Fascination with the infinite still exists.
Certainly the rent must be paid and wounds must heal.
And politics and justice, thats a long story ...
There is time but we still don't know how big it is.

Cheers,
X

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 15:25:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: X
Subject: You call that an answer?
Message:
Why are you afraid to post under your own name? Is it because people laughed at your inability to carry on a conversation like a human being? Do you think you're doing any better under this new disguise? Oh God!
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 13:15:51 (GMT)
From: A Prabu
Email: qwerty@pdai.com
To: Jesse
Subject: Fall 1972
Message:
email me and we can talk
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 05:14:33 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: A Prabu
Subject: Prabu = kap
Message:
kap please stick to one alias, as laid out in the forum guidelines.

FA

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:30:14 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: A Prabu
Subject: To A Prabu
Message:
Are you a Krishna devotee?
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:13:22 (GMT)
From: Jesse
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Are you a Krishna devotee?
Message:
Not like anyone could notice. I still do hear HARE KRISHNA in my head from time to time, and I will sing along for awhile, but not fervently enough to qualify as a devotee. No yellow robe, no japa beads. Well, I did buy some japa beads a couple of months ago at an Indian market in downtown Brooklyn. A small ring of black cylindrical beads, with three unstained, round, carved beads at 36, 72, and 108. But the leather thong broke after a couple of weeks, and they've been sitting in a glass jar, waiting to be restrung, ever since. In any case I wasn't chanting HARE KRISHNA on them, but OM GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASAMGATE BODHI SVAHA. Krishna sent me to Buddha.
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:06:22 (GMT)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Jesse
Subject: Are you a Krishna devotee?
Message:
Jesse, the mantra should be:

hOMe....... you'll live in a shanty shanty shanty hOMe.....

Buddha sent me hOMe....

:-)

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:37:01 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jesse
Subject: The true test of a Krishna devotee
Message:
The true test is what you do when you're being stabbed. George Harrison cried out 'Hare Krishna!'

(And it worked).

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:50:11 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Actually, It Was His Wife Who Saved Him :))....nt
Message:
mm
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:56:52 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Actually, his wife is(was?) a premie :))
Message:
just love your name
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:05:51 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: I think 'was'....
Message:
is the operative word. I know her sister, and she's not involved anymore, and I don't think Olivia is also.

Yeah, the name is muy accurate.

Thanks
M

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:58:54 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jesse
Subject: To Jesse
Message:
Jesse that's very interesting, but I was asking A Prabu if he was a Krishna devotee.
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 12:44:06 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jesse
Subject: Fall 1972
Message:
Dear Jesse,
Don't know you from a hole in the wall but wanted to tell you I enjoyed reading the begining of your 'journey'. :) Welcome, hope you find someone you use to know.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:48:45 (GMT)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Reincarnation
Message:
Robyn, I'm so busy that I don't get the opportunity to chime in (or even lurk.... for christ's sake). But to answer your question of a month ago, yes.... :-)
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 03:09:49 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Reincarnation
Message:
Hi sweetie,
I knew it! :) Nice to see you even briefly. Was just thinking of you the other day but, of course can't remember why, oh yes I do... you had a special day, I hope, 5 days ago. I am no longer 'employeed' in that capacity here but for you, a cryptic and heart felt message.
Love ya,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:30:18 (GMT)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Fall 1972 {OT}
Message:
Hey Robyn..Hope all is well with you...do you still have the same e-mail address..let me know I have a new one..Lots to tell you Peace...Love...David
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:34:09 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: Fall 1972 {OT}
Message:
Dear David,
So good to see you here, yes, the same email. Do you have it? It will be good to hear from you again. If you don't have my email I'll post it here for you.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 13:31:34 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Fall 1972 (OT)
Message:
Nice greeting. hole in the wall, very informative :), am sure lil' mis Jess here can use it :). Though it looks like secret agent Prabu has a plan.

So how you've been me shinning queen?

Me, can not sleep again and it's driving me off the bend.

Your sleepless worshipper salam

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:00:21 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: to Salam and Jesse
Message:
Dear Salam and Jesse,
I hope you didn't take that as a rude comment Jesse. It is a saying here is all. You were looking for people who knew you and I am not one of them. I surely wish you well.
Salam, hope you got to sleep, you need your rest now that you are going to school! Insomnia sucks, eh?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 05:22:01 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: New Journeys Entries
Message:
I put Sean O'Grady's updated entry online finally. He sent it in before the move.

The scripts had been broken for over a month, and people were having problems submitting entries. They're fixed now, and here are 3 new submissions:

John Watson

Barbara (Babs) Johnson

Aussie Ji

I still have some new White Pages entries to put online tomorrow.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:20:18 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: New Journeys Entries
Message:
Thank you all for those tales. Reading them really hit home how much crap we went through. Very moving. There must be so many people out there with similar stories.

I am feeling a bit down right now 'cos I was supposed to go for dinner with a premie friend - I wondered why he hadn't called to confirm so I just called him - he said that he was going to write to me (of all the crappy ideas - he's a minute or two away from me) to tell me that he didn't wish me to discuss 'his Master' if we met and he was not sure that he wanted to talk to me, as last time we spoke I had upset him so much. So now if we meet - which I doubt we shall at this rate - it is on the condition that I do not speak about Maharaji at all.
I am beginning to think I shall tell him to have it his own way- I don't need friends like this.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:13:23 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: To Patrick - My new theory
Message:
Thanks much to the new journey posters.

But my post here is to Patrick about his premie friend:

Why not strike up a deal? If you can bring your security blankie with you to dinner and he promises not to mention it, then you won't make any mention of his Master.

This is my new theory about premies and Knowledge. I had lunch with a non-premie friend and her two-year-old grandson last weekend. The little boy brought along his blankie. Every time the environment changed and he was feeling a wee bit discomforted, he reached for his blanket, put a corner of it in his mouth. First, it reminded me of people reaching for cigarettes every time they need some comforting. Then it reminded me of Knowledge! I really think premies use the Master and the Knowledge as comforting tools. Everytime you feel a little stressed, remember Holy Name! And go sit for an hour every week or so and be soothed by the words of your Master. Wrap yourself in your quiet, soothing blanket, and protect yourself from the harsh realities of life. 'I just don't buy into anything negative about my loving Master, true or not!'

What happened to 'seekers of Truth?' I used to admire premies, thinking they were the most evolved humans. We were brave and on the greatest adventure the universe had to offer. Now I've lost all respect for my friends who are still premies. Yes, we all need comforting, but this is pitiful. A middle-aged man breaks a dinner date because he gets upset if he hears anything negative about his MASTER??? What a wimp!!

Yes, Maharaji is King of the Wimps. Have you noticed lately how he talks to them? 'Why not try and open your hearts? You're running in the wrong direction. Death is gonna get you. What have you got to show for your life? But not to worry! You're alive and breathing and that means you are the richest person on the planet, you lucky little person! Get behind me. Hold on to the Master. Rejoice!'

It's all nothing but a blankie!

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 23:59:42 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: To Patrick - My new theory
Message:
Thanks Way - right now the balls in his court. I agree with everything you say.
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 03:07:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Yep. that's the question alright
Message:
'What happened to 'seekers of Truth?'

That is THE question I keep asking myself. What the hell happened to the spirit of actually wanting to know the truth, so much so that worldly compromise was scoffed at with disdain?

I used to admire premies, thinking they were the most evolved humans. We were brave and on the greatest adventure the universe had to offer. Now I've lost all respect for my friends who are still premies. Yes, we all need comforting, but this is pitiful. A middle-aged man breaks a dinner date because he gets upset if he hears anything negative about his MASTER??? What a wimp!!

With you all the way, way.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:25:05 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Patrick, please email me
Message:
Thanks. Lost your email address.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 13:58:20 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Brian
Subject: And another Quickie Entry
Message:
This one came this morning from Charles Hensel.
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:46:37 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: you're keeping EV monjitors busy
Message:
Hope everything is going to plan as we agreed. Will see you there. shhhh.

Salam

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 12:43:13 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Babs. Aussie, Sean, John
Subject: New Journeys Entries
Message:
Babs, Sean, John and Aussie-Ji

I just read your journies. Thank you for writing them.

Aussie-Ji, you really sailed close to the edge didn't you? Thank God you made it through to see your grandchildren.

Sean, yours was short, sweet and to the point.

John, do you still hang out in the North East. I gave a couple of poetry recitals at the Saltburn Pier Pressure Festival about four or five years ago.

Babs, you are probably aware, you have the gift of the 'clickety click' and know how to write. You say at the end, that if anyone wants to hear more stories, to let you know. Well I'd like to here more Babs.

Anth the audience

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 12:25:23 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks, all of you
Message:
And, to Barbara, I am not sure if you've ever posted here, but I could really relate to a lot of your story.

Thanks again, y'all.
Katie

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 05:47:58 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: Barbara
Subject: Incredible stuff
Message:
John's story I'd already read, as he kindly emailed me with it a while ago. Aussie Ji's was cute and succinct.

Babara's - 'Babs' - however, was simply the most incredible I've ever read here. I was actually moved to tears, which isn't like me at all. Must have taken a month to write, so detailed and thorough. Thank you for taking the trouble, it was well worth your effort.

barry/bazza

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 19:34:57 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Incredible stuff
Message:
If you liked Bab's journey, (and it certainly brought back a few memories for me) - you might like to check out the excerpts from Sophia Collier's book 'Soul Rush'.

It's well hidden on the ex-premie.org site (well, it's a big place), but you can link straight to her story

here

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 13:48:14 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Barbara
Subject: I knew Tiny, Babs
Message:
Yep, I knew him when he was in the Grand Rapids ashram. He was a nazi premie even back then. But I think he avoided reaching his true fascist apex til he got to IHQ. He had close male premie friends in Kalamazoo and Detroit who used to laugh at him and rein him in when he got too out there. But that was before he ascended to the Land of Agya. Sorry you were his victim. My heart ached for you when I read how he treated you. Some of those guys were just interested in squelching love and caring because it frightened them too much. In that case, it must be mind and obliterated. What jerks they were!

Did you know Bob Garrett at COLL? I lived with him in the ashram in Columbus, Ohio, and have often wondered what happened to him.

Your journey was very, very powerful. Thank you for taking the time to share it with us. And please continue to contribute. Care to tell us where you live these days?

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:50:40 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: joger02@aol.com
To: Marianne
Subject: Babs
Message:
Hi Babs, I hope you read the comments about your Journey, which really is beautiful. I remember you from San Antonio, and I remember you as funny, very alive, with great red hair. Somehow, I have the idea that you were being punished by being sent to COLL. A lot of ashram premies were. But you always seemed upbeat nonetheless.

I hope you are doing well. Thanks for the journey.

Joe Whalen

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:31:15 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Babs
Message:
I really enjoyed reading your journey. You have a wonderful voice in your writing and I want to read more more!
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:24:23 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Babs - Tiny
Message:
Your journey has put me into serious flashback mode. Oh wow, man - colors! I was there for many of those times you so eloquently wrote about. Montrose rainbows, processions in Delhi, roses at PremNagar, bathing in the Ganges (the 'sisters' had to wear neck to ankle clothing but once they went into the river to bathe everything went transparent - dozens of local men would watch the Western women from the bridge - meanwhile the bro's went swimming in their underwear) plus IHQ insanity circa pre-Millenium.

Tiny was a piece of work. Weighed at least 350 pounds - maybe 400. He used to regularly order pizza delivered via air courier from New York - this post Millenium Denver when the shrambos were eating Millenium Bars and drinking spoiled apple cider from those 55 gallon drums each ashram had. I'm sorry you got the axe like that.

More stories please.

Toasted postie

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 00:29:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Wasn't Tiny part of 'Spaceship Prachar?'
Message:
I remember there was this motor home that he and two other premies used to go accross country and spread the word. Tiny stood out, not only because he was obnoxious, but because he was HUGE, and most of the premies, especially the brothers, were emaciated vegetarians.
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:01:36 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I think it was 'starship',not spaceship nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 17:09:17 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Right ,'Starship', Prachar (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:04:23 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: and Tiny, was Gregory Rineheart,from Mich. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 00:54:27 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes he was, Joe, good memory. nt
Message:
xxx
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 04:18:24 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: For $1million = who was Tiny's sidekick? (nt)
Message:
pp
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 02:11:00 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Tiny's sidekicks in 'Starship Winnebago'...
Message:
First, a word about Tiny: definitely one of the biggest power tripping sadistic assholes I have ever met in dlm.
I would love to meet him again and kick him in the nuts a few times.
He held most premies in contempt and would manipulate them unmercifully to move into the ashram in NY, and give all their meager belongings as well. I think he was truely a sick person.

However, our lord was quite fond of him for some time, as Tiny would occassionally fly out to Denver with a whole stack of RAY'S Pizzas (remember, best pizza in the universe?) and play chess and eat pizza with Lard...all under lard's agya, of course..

In the summer of 1974 Tiny and 2 other guys travelled around the country in a Winnebago motor home, and called themselves 'starship prachar', (named after the jefferson starship).
They put on a program at a small hippy college in Mass. and made total fucking idiots out of themselves, as I watched them from the audience.
When they left, the rich hippies who attended from the college, all gathered around, had a great party, and laughed for hours into the night about the 'guru-noids' and how silly they were.

One of Tiny's henchmen was a wiry little guy with a big moustache..I think his name was Larry, and I think he was from New Orleans....I liked him, and he admitted to me that when Tiny would take a shower in the motor home, the other two would have to help push him straight into the shower stall, and then remove him from the stall, by pulling him straight back out. He couldn't turn around by himself.

I had fantasies of doing something really nasty to that boy while he was stuck in the shower stall to repay him for all the suffering he put so many premies through in NYC, but being a solid meditator at the time,and a man of restraint, I took the saintly path and let him be...

I have not remembered any of that, until just now...

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 07:57:57 (GMT)
From: insideout
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Tiny's sidekicks in 'Starship Winnebago'...
Message:
was it larry sutton?
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:28:28 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: That's the guy!
Message:
la-ex sez: 'One of Tiny's henchmen was a wiry little guy with a big moustache...'

That's the guy I meant but oops. Already cut the check for a million to Marianne - maybe she'll split it with you.

Starship Prachar was one in a series of Tiny's scams - all with the blessings of GMJ or BBJ. Had his own office, own bedroom, own car, assistants, expense account. One time he bought one of those huge bags of M&M's from the drug store across the street from IHQ in Denver. Ate the whole bag and sent the wrapper to Mars Candies complaining that they were stale. The sent him back a whole case.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 09:50:16 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Postie
Subject: Give the money to insideout
Message:
This is all very interesting. I knew Tiny in his earliest premie days in Grand Rapids, where I received k. He probably wouldn't even remember me. I do remember that Brad used to put him in his place all the time, much to the delight of other premies. Brad was the only person who seemed to have the upper hand with him. He could squelch Tiny with a few words, and he'd go scurrying back to a rathole for a while.

I could never figure out how he managed to rise to the upper echelons of DLM since he was such a jerk... Now I understand.

So Postie and insideout, you seem to know a lot about those upper echelon folks. Tell us more. Or tell me more by email.

Always a peon, Marianne

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 16:17:45 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Marianne / insideout
Subject: Insideout: You could be right.
Message:
It might be Larry Sutton, it might be Brad whats-his-name. But wasn't Larry Sutton the guy from the South who had a great antebellum accent? He wasn't Tiny's sidekick or was he? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. That's it - no more speculation - contest is over. All who participated have to hit Marianne up for a share of the prize.

That floodgate that opened the watershed of sudden remembrances of things past has slammed shut leaving me in the tacky Shrub infested present. OK, if I just stare into my GMJ rainbow button maybe I'll remember more about Tiny and his dynasty - by the way, it was Tiny who put 'nasty' in the word dynasty.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 21:10:16 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: The guy from the South was Russell Tate!!!
Message:
It was Tiny, Larry and Russell, who were the three stooges on Starship Winnebago
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:05:56 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Marianne, send the $million to Joe
Message:
Or maybe there was more than one premie from the South. Maybe Tiny will come out of the shower (if he can) and tell us the truth.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 23:30:36 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Whatever happened to Russell?
Message:
Russell Tate lived in the Oakland brothers ashram when I was CC in San Francisco. He used to talk about being on 'Starship Prachar.' I also remember him from Miami, and I think he worked at DECA for awhile. Russell said he could 'sell anything.'

He was from Oxford, Mississippi.

Anybody know whatever happened to Russell Tate?

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 16:40:34 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.lie
To: Postie
Subject: Postie: Carole Greenberg, Lola, Susan Butcher?
Message:
Since it seems you were at IHQ, I have a question that might open some memory floodgates again. Did you know Carole Greenberg? How about Susan Butcher? What about Lola?

These were all strong women. I spent a couple of days driving Carole around once and loved her. She was tough, very funny, and rather irreverent. She didn't take shit from the powerboys from Denver. At least that's how I remember her at that point in time. I always thought she could have done something very powerful with her life. Her talents seemed wasted in the cult.

Susan was a friend of Rennie's. I was amazed that she could go from the feminist left to ashram meek.

Then there's Lola. What a character!

I knew these last 2 only from afar, but the stories of Lola's eccentricity were always floating around. She seemed like a real person during times when we were programmed ashram drones.

Do you know what happened to any of them? Anyone else have any information?

Thanks, Marianne

ps I keep getting the feeling you are female, but who knows, in this jungle!

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 18:19:52 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Postie: Carole Greenberg, Lola, Susan Butcher?
Message:
Carole Greenberg is now Carole Wilson, and she's a very successful artist (painter). She as an interesting character, once was the lover of Chungpa Rinpoche (spelling is screwed, but you prob know whom I'm talking about). Lola Jackson went to work for Xerox Corporation, used to live in LA, but I think lives in the desert now. Didn't know Susan Butcher. BTW, is Brad, Brad King? He lives in either Sta. Barbara or San Francisco, and is an engineer.
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 20:02:09 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Hey there Monmot!
Message:
How are you? How are things? It is raining cats and dogs here.

No, it's not Brad King. If I hear the name, I will know it. david m knows his last name, but I guess he's not around.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:02:15 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Postie: Carole Greenberg, Lola, Susan Butcher?
Message:
I do remember Carole Greenberg and she was as you described. Very strong woman. I don't remember what she did service-wise specifically. Susan Butcher's name rings a big bell but that's about it. Lola, I think is mentioned in Sofia's book but if I ever knew her, I've blocked it out. From what I've read, she was hell on wheels. Sorry I can't fill in more juicy details. Like I said, for some reason Bab's journey gave me industrial grade flashbacks but now I can't remember what day it is. It is true, I was at DLM / DUO / IHQ in Denver ffrom 1973 - 1979.

Marianne - I'll send you an encrypted email at LIHQ - Latvian International Headquarters / Cyberlocation.

Postie

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 21:13:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Didn't Susan Butcher follow BBJ? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 17:21:15 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Postie
Subject: Postie, please read
Message:
If you are actually going to email me, I made a typo in my email address in the previous post. My correct email address is as shown here.

If you email me at ILHQ, I am sure they will forward the mail!

Looking forward to hearing from you,
Marianne

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:05:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Was it Teddy Tannenbaum? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:09:57 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hopefully Teddy was too cool for that
Message:
I don't know who it was either but Tiny and sidekick were definitely a Laurel and Hardy team.
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 22:31:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: I know, I know --- Russell Tate (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 09:58:41 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Postie
Subject: In which city?
Message:
He was more like Brad's sidekick in Michigan.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 15:49:30 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: What's Brad's last name?
Message:
Sounds like you're having a ball over there.

M

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 15:42:28 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne - the check's in the mail!
Message:
The sidekick I was wondering about was a wiry guy (of course anyone is wiry next to Tiny) that travelled around with him on Starship Prachar - sort of his VP in charge of pizza aquisition. Was that Brad?

Last I heard of Tiny he was selling woodstoves - mid-80's.

None of this is either here or there but Bab's journey cut loose the ice dam of repressed memory.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 19:08:54 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Postie
Subject: Brad and Tiny -- david m???
Message:
Geez, Brad used to play for the Western Michigan University football team. Even when he lived in the ashrams in Michigan, he was a big guy. Athletic looking. I don't think you could describe him as wiry. I don't remember this road trip scheme, but I was living in the ashram hinterlands. The only wiry guy I can think of who knew Tiny too was Dean Zito, also a former Detroit ashram resident. I was very close to Dean. He died in a small plane crash years ago. If david m. is lurking, he might be able to shed some light on this subject. Somehow I can't see Dean going on a road trip with Tiny, except under duress. Total opposites.

Brad worked in Denver at IHQ for a while as I recall, then moved to Boulder. A big contingent of former Michigan ashram residents went there in the mid 70's.

david m, if you're there, what was Brad's last name? I have completely forgotten it.

Postie, where are you from?

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 01:25:01 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Is it Brad King? nt
Message:
mm
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 16:19:20 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: I knew Rekha, Babs
Message:
You journey was tough to read. If it's the same Rekha?? Rekha was actually the premie who brought me to knowledge. In 1975, I was living and working in Hartford, Conn., my home state, and Rekha was involved in the community there. Just a premie house at the time, no ashrams yet.

My good friend Steve met her in the unemployment line and she gave him satsang. He went to satsang that night at the Oxford St. premie house, a beautiful English tudor home, and when he came home, he told my sister (his girlfriend of many years at the time) and me that we ''had'' to go check this out.

The world of premies is so small, really. There are other stories about my contact with Rekha; her prior romantic involvement with the premie I began a serious relationship with in 1976 . Her jealously was was venomous. She wrote me hate letters!

Oops! I'm getting into gossip now. I just wanted to thank you for your journey.

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 01:38:36 (GMT)
From: Patrick (Anon)
Email: None
To: Mikes
Subject: 'Fear' would the 2 Mikes care to comment ?
Message:
...because you both have spent a lot of time with Maharaji and I value your perspectives.

For years I have struggled with the fact that most premies repect for Maharaji is manifestly tinged with fear. This started with the uncomfortable realisation that my own devotion for him was also fearful. A lot of premies are afraid to explore the possibility that they can spiritually progess in their lives without acknowledging him as some kind of divine authority and Master. They seem to think that if indeed he is God then it is appropriate to have some fear. This makes them at least hedge their bets in case they are wrong - this means to me that they really are not in touch with their hearts. They cannot make a heartfelt decision because with Maharaji's help they have lost touch with these fundamental free feelings.

My heart has always told me to reject fear. Actually as a child my mother told me that God was love and that 'perfect love casteth out fear'. I embraced that feeling intuitively and something in my 'pre-rational' inner child knew this was true. It is the desire to protect my inner child from the bonds of fear that encourages me to trust my judgement to go it alone and continue my search for God, truth and also - most importantly - to stand up and take an active stance to expose falsity.

My teetering premie friends are finding it so hard to distinguish what their hearts really are telling them I think - preferring for the time, to take time out to just consider their inner conflicts - my feeling is that Maharaji has been the focus of our emotions and so-called heart aspirations for so long - and has said that knowledge is the ultimate 'heart feeling' over and over 'I am the voice of your heart! -I am the voice of your heart! I am the voice of your heart!' - that our true little hearts voice, that of this inner child in us all (that cannot be intimidated ) has been overwhelmed and drowned out.

I am saddened to see that so many friends who are premies are still reluctant to question Maharaji and explore life in other ways because they are so worried that he might be the Lord and so they are scared to entertain doubts . It might sound strange but this is what a growing number of premies who I talk with clearly feel. This fearful possibility seems to hold some great power over them and to at a stroke defeat all their better judgement. They really are scared of Maharaji and I don't see him doing anything to discourage this.

I tell them that if he is God then he may do as he wishes with my soul for my questioning is totally sincerely motivated - while I am here I am not going to go against my conscience or what my heart tells me. And I cannot continue as a premie with fear in my heart towards him.

If anything I feel I am doing Gods work by standing up to this man who seems to have redefined for so many people the meaning of their hearts and minds.

Any comments welcome from all of course.

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 15:44:11 (GMT)
From: FOMF
Email: None
To: Patrick (Anon)
Subject: 'Fear' would the 2 Mikes care to comment ?
Message:
Repating this post (also posted in a thread above).

I'm a friend of Mike Finch (FOMF).

He is down with the flu at the moment and too ill to contemplate anything deeper than today's episode of Days of Our Lives. He has asked me to let you know he'll get back to you in a few days.

FOMF

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:02:35 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Patrick (Anon)
Subject: What kind of 'Lord' would deny a doubting Thomas?
Message:
The very fact that doubt is and always has been verboten (and how!) marks the Maha out for what he really is.
.
.
Just what kind of 'Lord' is it that's frightened of letting people deal with their doubts?

And what would that kind of 'Lord' be trying to hide from?

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 15:42:34 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Patrick (Anon)
Subject: 'Fear' - my comment
Message:
Patrick,

I’m not so sure your premie friends are living in as much fear of Maharaji as you think they are, although I don't deny that M's whole trip is based on fear. In my opinion, what they fear most is the prospect of re-claiming their lives. Having bought into Maharaji’s view of the world, many long-term premies fear that their lives will no longer have any meaning without M at its center. Rather than face that prospect, they find it is easier to ignore and dismiss any and all criticisms of M, so that they can continue playing his game. However, M’s game will not go on forever, because his greed and depravity is accelerating his own self-destruction.

In the meantime, perhaps it’s best not to try too hard to convince your premie friends of anything. Let your friendship, your family, your career, and your passion for life be a demonstration that there is meaning, beauty, joy and love as well as some pain and suffering and doubts and unpleasantness in your life after and without M. He has no power over our lives other than what we ourselves grant him.

Michael

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:29:29 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Fear
Message:
I think the fear people who follow Maharaji feel, is real, and I agree it is the basis of the Maharaji cult. It is just so ironic when they talk about love all the time, but really, it's fear that is the binding force.

I think it just depends on your own background as to how the fear manifests. I think many of us who became premies came from the Christian tradition. I came from a traditional Catholic tradition, in which there is a mixed message, that God if love, but he is also vengeful if you cross him and the stakes are high. Maharaji basically preached the same thing. There is a beautiful love inside you, but if you leave it, if you doubt, you risk losing it forever and not even knowing it, and also you might just waste your entire life and end up in hell.

So, if somebody has been a premie for decades, this is pretty much ingrained, and probably not even conscious. So there is a lot of fear, and it seems easier to just continue to believe.

Then, I think you have to add to that what Michael said, that questioning your involvement, means having to look at yourself, to look at what you have been holding on to, and risk letting go of it. It's very scary.

I spoke with somebody I know on the telephone a few months ago. This person had rejected Maharaji, but now is 'sort of' still involved. His whole rationale was that he was incapable of understanding what was going on, so it was better to believe in it than not believe in it. It was sad.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:16:17 (GMT)
From: Charles S
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Fear and mixed messages...
Message:
I remember hearing about the 'rotting vegetables' satsang, but I think that was pulled out of circulation a long time ago.

In recent videos, M. has said several times, that he has never claimed anyone would go to hell if they stopped practicing Knowledge. In fact, he has said 'What happens to someone if they stop practicing Knowlege? Nothing. They just go back to being the way they were before they got Knowledge.'

When he said that, I felt he was actually responding to the things that have been said about the 'rotten vegetables' Satsang on this forum. There is a lot or 'revisionism' happening currently. They are trying to keep people from leaving and dropping out. He's appealing to people who are waivering. M's choice of words are interesting. '...they just go back to being the way they were before they got Knowledge'.

Considering how confused, unhappy and miserable many people were when they came to recieve special K, it's a gentle way to say 'you'll be worse off than you are now'. He also still tells that favorite story of his, about the premie woman who stopped practicing, who then claimed her entire life just seemed to turn on her. He often IMPLIES that your life will fall to pieces without him, but stops short of actually saying it. It's like there is an assumption that it's understood. He knows people remember his older satsangs, he just puts a gentler spin on it nowadays, love mixed with fear. It's interesting how you point out that love and fear are often mixed together, like it is in christianity for many people. And Radhasoami tradition has a strong christian roots built into it.

When we were still in the committee meetings, there was one Industrial Strength Church Lady, with whom I could agree on almost nothing. I was shocked at how much I liked her. She toed the party line, but she also bent over backwards, to try to accomodate me and get me to participate. But every time, I ultimately felt I was being made to suppress my will and my true feelings and go with the group, supposedly to do what the Master wanted, to waste my time and money on things I could not agree with.

One day, I pointed out a contradiction in something M. had once said, and the Industrial Strenth Church Lady said, ever so reasonably, 'So? Are you saying that M. isn't entitled to change his mind, just like you or me?' She explained, ever so kindly and reaonalby, how someone had said that to her once, when she was confused by M. starting to use the internet, after ridiculing it as a vehicle for propigation. She said it was a great realisation for her, that M. was allowed to change his mind. She seemed to hope that I would think so to.

My point for mentioning this is, it's not easy for many premies to reason their way out. They have doubts, but those doubts are addressed superficially, along with warnings about not letting 'the doubt maker' destroy your wonderful experience. Meanwhile, M. is 'changing his mind' about his history.

In recent years, when M. would keep admonishing us not to have doubts, it drove me crazy. I kept thinking, 'Doubt WHAT? My breath? What is he talking about?' For me, my focus was more on the meditation than him. I hadn't gotten as big a dose of bhakti ju-ju as earlier premies. The committee meetings really showed this up for me. Perfectly reasonable people would go along with bad ideas, would admit they were bad from a business perspective, but then just say, that because it is what the master wants, I should go along with it anyway. 'It doesn't matter if no new people come to video events, because we are doing service because that is what M. wants us to do. I have no problem with that...', implying that perhaps there was something wrong with me. And there was. I was listening to my heart, and it wasn't syncronized... my REAL feelings were, 'Watch out here, watch out, don't go down this road with them.'

My point is, that premies have been trained to accept contradicions. M. contradicts himself all the time, so it's hard to pin him down, which allows him often to seem to have it both ways, which is, whatever way suits him at any particular time. People under the spell of the Radhasoami Whammy have a difficult time seeing their way out, and are afraid, of M. himself and of having a life without M. as the center, especially if they believe he is the one and only way to happines. For many it seems safer to ignor their doubts. They can't see an alternative.

Their fears can also become self-fulfilling prophices, because they only what they are conditioned to see. If you believe that leaving M. will cause your life to turn on you, then you will look for that evidence and find it, interpreting everything that happens through that filter. If you don't believe it, you won't look for it.

The best way to help them over that fear is to show them that people can leave, without their lives 'turning' on them, and still be happy. That Life itself is the gift they recieved, and isn't dependent on a third party. Our own journey's are probably the best way to share that.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:42:27 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: Changing your mind v. lying
Message:
Maybe the cult puts so little demand on people nowadays, that the cost of being in the cult is very low, or they are not as visible. Therefore, the need to scare people into staying is also less, because the misery of being a premie is less. I know for me, at the time I left, I was so miserable being a premie that I didn't care if I was going to hell. It had to get pretty bad for me to abandon something I had put so much time, energy and soul into. Maybe if I wasn't so miserable, if being a premie didn't cost me that much, I might not have left.

In recent videos, M. has said several times, that he has never claimed anyone would go to hell if they stopped practicing Knowledge. In fact, he has said 'What happens to someone if they stop practicing Knowlege? Nothing. They just go back to being the way they were before they got Knowledge.'

Maharaji is, of course, lying. I personally heard him say both the 'going to hell' and the 'rotting vegetables' and also the 'smashing into a thousand pieces' threats about what would happen if you left.

Frankly, I find it hard to believe people would think it was okay for Maharaji to 'change his mind' about something like that. I mean, you used to go to hell if you stopped practicing knowledge, but not anymore. Or, Maharaji used to be the Lord of the Universe, but he decided not to be anymore. That's bad enough.

But what I think is harder for premies to accept is that Maharaji is now lying. Changing your mind is one thing, but lying is another, especially about something as important as that. So, now Maharaji is lying about never having claimed to be God, and he's lying about never having made threats about going to hell if you stop practicing knowledge, among other things.

How do premies reconcile that?

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 02:47:58 (GMT)
From: Charles S
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Changing mind,lying to reconcile contradictions...
Message:
Joe said:

Maybe the cult puts so little demand on people nowadays, that the cost of being in the cult is very low, or they are not as visible. Therefore, the need to scare people into staying is also less, because the misery of being a premie is less. I know for me, at the time I left, I was so miserable being a premie that I didn't care if I was going to hell. It had to get pretty bad for me to abandon something I had put so much time, energy and soul into. Maybe if I wasn't so miserable, if being a premie didn't cost me that much, I might not have left.

Yes Joe. Demands aren't put on most people. M. has said in video's about 'participation', that if you don't want to participate, not only should you not do so, but, please DON'T, because you'll just get in the way of people who do. At the Longbeach event, he encouraged participation, but said he realized not everyone could be generals in his army, or even footsoldiers. That if some people felt they just wanted to practice knowledge and get on with their lives, that was ok, too. Keep in mind, many of those premies who don't want to be generals or footsoldiers feel GUILTY, and send a monthly check as a way of participating. I know I did. So if the ju-ju only accomplished that much, it did something. But people aren't openly coerced. They are openly 'encouraged to participate'.

No more talk about handing over the 'reigns of your life'. Checks, and even monthly automatic deposits from your credit card, will do nicely, thank you. And a nice little $10.00 gift certificate with your next elan vital merchandise catalog, to say 'Thank You' for your participation. And of course, you get your tax deduction.

Once M. made his fortune on the backs of the ashram premies, he only needed the rest to make donations to keep it going. And if the donors were just fringe premies, that was fine, their money was as good as anyones. Elan Vital certainly hasn't wanted to scare them off. There was hardly even any waiting in line at the last programs I attended. It's all smooth and easy.

Joe said:
Maharaji is, of course, lying. I personally heard him say both the 'going to hell' and the 'rotting vegetables' and also the 'smashing into a thousand pieces' threats about what would happen if you left.

That's interesting, because I have heard him say MANY times, that he NEVER said anyone would go to hell if they stopped practicing special K.

Joe said:
Frankly, I find it hard to believe people would think it was okay for Maharaji to 'change his mind' about something like that. I mean, you used to go to hell if you stopped practicing knowledge, but not anymore. Or, Maharaji used to be the Lord of the Universe, but he decided not to be anymore. That's bad enough.

But what I think is harder for premies to accept is that Maharaji is now lying. Changing your mind is one thing, but lying is another, especially about something as important as that. So, now Maharaji is lying about never having claimed to be God, and he's lying about never having made threats about going to hell if you stop practicing knowledge, among other things.

How do premies reconcile that?

When the Church Lady told me about her relization that M. was allowed to change his mind, it was obviously a big realization for her. In so far as people just accept that, it gives M. a lot of wiggle room. Perhaps she was relieved that she didn't have to reconcile contradictions, she could now just say he changed his mind. Very convenient.

Yet, I'm sure many premies are bothered about lies, when they see things being lied about. I know lies bother me. I can forgive mistakes, but lies are terrible. It makes you start to wonder what you can believe, it eats away at M's credibility.

Many premies had no other sources of information, so they would just ignore some things and live with others, because what could they do? But now websites like EPO are providing new information, and people are rethinking their involvement. But precisely because they did have it 'easier' than the ashram premies (at least the fringe premies had it easier), they aren't as angry. They may have had some good experiences, too, all mixed in with things they didn't like, but tolerated. But now they may be re-thinking it, and wondering if they can separate the good from the bad. Did you read what Roy said in his post, about Psycologist William James, regarding people hanging on to religion because of an initial experience, even after the religion no longer serves them? I think that is where many of the premies are at.

Many of the premies formed an emotional bond with M. They hang on out of habit, and because they have yet to see another way. They may remember the old satsangs subconciously, but their concious minds say look, it's better now. They are used to making excuses and accepting contradictions. But when they start questioning, and learn there are other sources of information, many come here.

That's why I've been feeling that it's not necessarily good to focus on telling people they must stop meditation, that insisting or implying that they should renounce everything they ever experienced that was positive while with M could cause more confusion for some people. For other people, stoping meditation might be good, or even essential. But I think people need to decide that for themselves. There are no one-size-fits-all solutions. The solutions are as diverse as the experiences of everyone here.

Lots of the positive things people may have experienced actually came from themselves, not M. Even the good things M. may have said, that I liked, have been said by other people too, without baggage like 'Think of ME when you die'. One of the best pieces of advice I've had from M. was 'Listen to your heart'. I did, and it said I didn't need a third party to interpret.

I think the best thing we can do for new people here is help them sort themselves out. They have already been told for too long what they should do. They can find their own answers here, by talking to us. There is a very diverse spectrum of the premie experience here, and I think there is help here from many different perpectives. A story for everyone.

That's why I post here. What I have to say won't appeal to everyone, but it will appeal to some. I think that is true for most of us. Talking about my experience leaving is my way of holding the door open, for anyone who might think ''hey, THAT exit looks good...''

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:03:13 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: \
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Yep. We, ourselves, are the obstacle. nt
Message:
whoaa
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:20:44 (GMT)
From: Maurice
Email: None
To: Patrick (Anon)
Subject: All Heart Love.
Message:
The same techniques to control through fear have been used by men like Adolf Hitler and Jo Stalin and many many more, including serial killers .They are happy when they make their victims suffer and you've read the stories. Only when you're still holding onto, or letting go of old values does all this heart thing surface so intensely, the Maharaji self enrichment cult is full of fear and unfullfilment. this is due to the impossibility to become perfect,or by doing whatever he says will get you feeling good, because he is perfect, it is more emptiness and what he is calling Knowledge will do nothing for you, but fill his empty existance with material wealth. When you feel good there is a temptation to attribute it to someone you like, so who do serial killers attribute their good heart feelings to when the enjoy watching someone suffer?. I don't have any answers myself and I am always looking for a way to fill the emptiness when it is there and not blame others for the absence , so I take each moment as a new one and pray God will fill the empty space, and I'll feel happy again and take these moments for silence and focus on how good it feels to be loved, and not to feel loss, and feel warm , alive and good, without paying for it with money. .M.
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:27:57 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Maurice
Subject: Jealous, insecure batterers control by fear NT
Message:
s
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 17:22:05 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: Jealous, insecure batterers control by fear NT
Message:
Dear Conlon,

Your statement above is right on the money (no pun intended). I spent time with M (never x-rated) and because of the mystery (and security) he placed about himself, I have to say I feared him personally.

So I never spoke to him, while a lot of other premies felt free to talk and he'd make jokes, etc. Me? He scared me to the bone, but then, again, a red flag must have been flying high inside of me because my father was an extraordinary batterer, controller, egomaniac, psychopath. Yes, red flags were flying, even while I worshipped his crusty feet!

Love,
CCynthia

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:32:15 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia - fear of M
Message:
Me too. I was terrified of him. The church-ladies that I met last year also had some fear not so much of him but of themselves. They are 70s premies and remember the ''rotting vegetables'' satsang even if only subconsciously. Since exiting I have talked to three of them on the phone and I came away feeling that their biggest fear now is that they may be wrong but cannot yet see an alternative.

In 1974 at the Copenhagen divine circus my lover was assigned to do security service outside M's hotal suite. As he stood outside the door it suddenly burst open and Sampuranand came running out screaming with M hot on his heels.

M pushed S to the floor and began to punch S in the face viciously all the while screaming, ''You stole my camera.''

S was sobbing and pleading and saying that he had not stolen the camera. Marolyn appeared and said, ''Your camera's still in the suitcase.''

M stopped hitting S and began to beg for his forgiveness. Both men were in tears and hugging. Marolyn said, ''The way you two are going on, you's think you were queers.'' She went back into the room and slammed the door.

My lover was totally devastated by this event and lost all faith in M and eventually dropped out altogether.

Me, silly gopi: I thought it was a lila and was charmed by the story. I had just had darshan for the first time and was hooked on the bhakti juju.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 23:46:19 (GMT)
From: bill-for those that want
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: a best of week list, here is one of them...nt*****
Message:
afhan
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:03:11 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: Cynthia - fear of M...Wow Conlon...
Message:
What story! A good example of M's unpredictable and volitile behavior. What an abusive little runt!

Not only was he punching his premie out, he and Marolyn both expressing such hate talk! That's just plain ignorance and bigotry, plain and simple. No excuse. Sometimes I think homophobes are just stupid. Vt passed the 1st civil union law last year and whoa...the backlash and vile???!! Phew!

I was such a lila believer, too, every leaf that moved...blaaaa

I like that bhakti juju expression. How does that translate? My husband just said to me yesterday while we were watching the movie ''Devil's Advocate'' something like ''oh that's bad juju.'' I said to him, you been reading the forum?:)))

I never got into the hindi words too much and have forgotten the ones I knew.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:16:03 (GMT)
From: Conlon
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia - fear of M...Wow Conlon...
Message:
Bhakti = sanskrit for devotion but also has connotations (yes can you believe it?) of ''participation.'' Bhakti was what the gopis and Radha felt for Krishna (her brother - yes!)

Alain Danielou, in his book ''Gods of Love and Ecstasy,'' traces the Greek word ''bacchante'' back to the sanskrit root. The bacchantes were the devotees of Dionysus (known to the Romans as Bacchus.)

Juju = voodoo, casting a spell, enchanting. The Radhasoami cult gurus believe that the techniques (kriyas) are worthless unless the guru awakes bhakti in the student. Shri Hans used to say: ''Knowledge without love (bhakti) is dry. Love without Knowledge is blind.''

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:39:36 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Conlon
Subject: Thanks, Conlon! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 17:23:34 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Not 'NT' ^^^^^^^ sorry (nt)
Message:
nty
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:05:22 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Patrick (Anon)
Subject: 'Fear' would the 2 Mikes care to comment ?
Message:
'Inner child?'

SOMEBODY BITCH SLAP THIS DUDE !!!


.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.(snicker)
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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:14:27 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: heh heh... you're well in touch with yours,Ger (nt
Message:
subversive inner child, that is ;)
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 20:12:10 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Nothing wrong with inner child dude.
Message:
'Inner child?'
SOMEBODY BITCH SLAP THIS DUDE !!!

OK, OK -so that may sound too new agey for your sensitive stomach but this is a nevertheless a fair description of a fairly fundamental part of us. Call it what you like but there is an childish (not in the puerile sense) core to even the oldest of people. That's my observation.

When I was about 4 or 5 years old I had, like you, a fresh positive easy 'innocent' attitude. I see this all the time in my kids who are now at that age. It is really refreshing to be with them when they are at this relatively unspoiled stage - kids are natural, totally uncynical and have a huge ability to forgive, love and laugh (and cry of course) and loads of other virtues that get highjacked or buried in time. Get my drift now ?

I recognise that in many ways it behoves me to hold on to those qualities within myself , if I can, as an adult.
Not to sell out to someone elses ideas about who I am. That is what I meant by 'inner child'. Not some, vague wishy-washy new age speak. If you try to put me in that bag I will object - because that's not my trip - K?

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 02:29:09 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)..
Subject: Nothing wrong with inner child dude.
Message:
Agree with you Patrick. Inner child is part of us, there to protect our interests...and the bit of me that sounded the alarm bells about premiedom...ignore at your peril gErRy (but you probably don't really, do you?? xxx MW
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 03:30:23 (GMT)
From: Maurice.
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: I fuckin' larfed.
Message:

Hey Dude, where's my fucking heart. I'm bolloxed and going to sleep, this forum has me shagged,thanks for the chuckle gErRy,M.
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 00:14:13 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Patrick(anon)-are you serious about a new yacht?
Message:
Patrick(anon)-in a post below, you stated that a premie told you that m is looking for a larger yacht, so that he can land his helicopter on it.
Are you being facetious with us, or is this true?
Did someone really tell you this seriously?

Next thing we hear will be that he's having premies build an ark...

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:21:21 (GMT)
From: Suchabanana
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Forum's'Greatest Hits':The Mahamantra...[da yacht]
Message:
The MAHAMANTRA:
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.' (- Maharaji at Long Beach '95)

{repeat this mantra 1000 times while looking at Maharaji's picture, to attain virtual enlightenment!!!]
The MAHAMANTRA:
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'

'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'
'...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think...' etc.

KEEP GOING 1000X:
HAVE YOU ATTAINED ENLIGHTENMENT OF THE SELF-EVIDENT TRUTH, YET?
Yes? Welcome to the Light!
No? Continue repeating the Mahamantra, little grasshopper.
----------------------------------------------------------------
THE 4 SIMPLE TECHNIQUES FOR TRUE BELIEVERS:
Concentrate on the photo of the featured 112-foot $7.5 million-dollar Westport motor yacht with pilothouse on the westportyachtsales.com site (go to >yacht brokerage: featured vessels: Westport Shipyard) as you repeat any (or all) of the following simple mantras 10,000 times:

Techniques #1-4:
1) mantra: 'It isn't easy; it's not what you think. It isn't easy; it's not what you think. It isn't easy; it's not what you think,' etc.
[Instructions: Focus your Sight on the visual image of the yacht, and silently repeat this mantra, as you gradually gain the hidden deeper meaning of the mantra]

2) mantra: 'The message remains the same, the message remains the same, the message remains the same, the message remains the same' etc.
[Instructions: as you gaze intently at the picture of the yacht, Listen to the mantra words carefully -- to reveal the hidden deeper meaning of the timeless message behind the mantra. Other images or thoughts may arise in the mind: like 'Rolls Royce', 'Aston Martin', 'mansions', 'millions', 'smuggler', 'jets', 'Bijan', 'Armani', or 'Rolex' etc. Allow these thoughts to pass through undisturbed; they are simply material illusions or mental impressions [samsaras], but they also represent steps on the path of your increasing realization. When the hidden enduring resounding message which 'remains the same' finally becomes clear, then you have attained a new level of enlightenment.]

3) mantra: 'The giver and the gift, the giver and the gift, the giver and the gift, the giver and the gift', etc.
[Instructions: As you gaze at the yacht and silently repeat the mantra, Feel a Vibration literally emanating in your abdomen, as your consciousness relates the yacht with this mantra]

4) mantra: 'sucker, sucker, sucker, sucker, sucker, sucker, sucker, sucker,sucker', etc.
{Instructions: Gazing at the yacht, mentally repeat this mantra, and using an ancient hatha yoga technique, Suck your tongue backwards in your throat -- to accentuate the deeper symbolic effect of the mantra]
After enlightenment on the revelation of the evident materialized truths here, then for your own peace of mind (and personal health and self-preservation), without judgment of any individual who comes to mind, quickly plunge into deep meditation [for at least an hour] on the universal life energy within you: the real gift, the energy and Light and Breath you were graced with and born with, that is yours in this life -- and which is no other human being's property or monopoly to hoard -- using any effective inner technique(s) you please. Who/what gave us the Gift of Life? The true giver and the gift!

Peace, to all brothers and sisters, to all who have suffered and endured for the sake of liberating Truth. Slavery is hereby abolished!!! To thine own self be true -- and the truth shall set you free! Rejoice, oh ye daughters and sons of the living infinite universal energy! Know ye not -- ye are ALL the sons and daughters of that eternal and infinite energy. Rejoice and breathe -- Free, Free, Free at last...

Peace, Love, and Light forever...

from a common servant and child of the giver of life

P.S. Those Mahatmas loved it, too (to any Stupid fucking dickheads out there...)

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 18:24:24 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: Forum's'Greatest Hits': this should be on video!nt
Message:
- with a mental health warning!
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 18:23:06 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: Thanks Such, very creative.
Message:
And very true.
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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 09:46:54 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: Brilliant Post!
Message:
I've just completed 3 hours of practicing your Mahamantra techniques and true enlightenment has been attained!

Strangely enough, a few years ago I went to an Amway convention, and people there were holding up pictures of material things they desired such as a car. Have you been teaching your techniques to Amway??

John the ex-sucker

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 00:41:05 (GMT)
From: Patrick (anon)
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Patrick(anon)-are you serious about a new yacht?
Message:
This is exactly what a premie told me - What's new ? I am not in the least surprised nor will any premies be - they consider (as I certainly once did too) that as the Master he deserves the best this world can provide.

It makes sense that he have a heliport wherever he goes if possible I guess- since I understand he has a 'copter.

Look, someone who has a 40 million dollar jet, a string of beautiful houses around the world , many other assets and means of transport isn't going to feel that he's making to much of an indulgent display by merely upgrading his boat once in a while is he?!

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 02:03:43 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Patrick and la-ex
Subject: Yacht, etc - With No Money Down
Message:
It occurs to me that M has done what those Buy Real Estate With No Money Down guys pitch on TV. You know the game. They always recommend using 'other people's money' to leverage the purchase of 'distressed' properties, fix them up a bit then 'flip' the property before you have to shell out any of your own cash. Theoretically, you make a tidy profit using other people's money and do it again thereby increasing your net worth without risking your own capital.

In M's case, the property could be a yacht, the Anacapa View house, various aircraft including the 'Project' 707. A small amount of other peoples' seed money (probably supplied by the front row club) is used to secure the property then the call goes out for support in the form of cash 'graditude' - more 'other people's money'. Next a loan is leveraged based on past performance. At some point, a few lucky artisans are called upon to supply 'other people's money' in the form of their pro bono time and skills to immaculately refurbish the property/yacht/plane thereby increasing the value several fold. Soon after, the property/yacht/plane becomes hopelessly below standard and it's sold for a nice profit. At this point, the No Money Down game starts all over again at a higher price point. Meanwhile, the FRPAMS (front row premies around maharaji) get to ante up the seed money again and travel the country requesting more help for 'propogation'. The artisans gratefully come in again . . .

I realize this is a hopelessly simple explanation from a financial point of view, but I couldn't resist the parallel to the No Money Down scheme.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 17:05:21 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: It's a matter of grammar.
Message:
Money has no relation whatsoever to the verbs, 'to earn', or 'to work.' It is conjugated with the verbs, 'to ask, to demand,' or 'to yell.'

Anth who didn't go to Grammar School.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:20:01 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: 'Money For Nothing'
Message:
From Dire Straits' song, written by Mark Knopfler (with a few revisions):)) apologies to the composer!

'Now look at them PKWs that's the way they do it
They put their money on the Lard's big feet.
He ain't workin' that's the way he does it
Money for nothin' and his chicks for free
Lemme tell ya, Rawat's doin' nothing
Now let me tell ya, the Lard's not dumb
Maybe he'll get them 'round his little finger
Maybe he'll get a sister under his thumb..

Chorus:
They gotta move those golden plate toilets
Custom made deliveries
They gotta move the biggest yacht ever
They gotta get their front row seats

See the little maggot with his watch collection
Yeah buddy that's his own lair
That little maggot got his own jet airplane
That little maggot is a millionaire

(Sting in background)
I want my, I want my, I want my yacht for free
I want my, I want my, I want my yacht for free

I shoulda learned to be a Perfect Master
I shoulda learned to be a Perfect Creep
Look at that blondie she's got it stickin' in her fingers
Man, that Rawat he has some fun
And he's up there, what's that? Hawaiian noises?
Dancin in Armani like a chimpanzee
That ain't workin that's the way he does it
Money for nothin' and his chicks for free

Chorus:
They gotta move those golden plate toilets
Custom made deliveries
They gotta move the biggest yacht ever
They gotta get their front row seats

See the little maggot his Mercedes collection
Yeah buddy that's his own lair
That little maggot got his own jet airplane
That little maggot is a millionaire

(Sting in background):

I want my, I want my, I want my yacht for free
I want my, I want my, I want my yacht for free'

Fade out, end of song.

Cynthia


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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 10:56:35 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Bravo Cynthia.
Message:
An improvement on the original.

Dire Straits- the most aptly named band in the world.

Anth the music critic

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 00:02:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Excellent, C ynthia LOL -- Mark Knopfler
Message:
Very funny, and so true.

Have you heard Mark Knopfler's new album called 'Sailing to Philadelphia?' I think it's really good.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 19:45:48 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Sorry^^^Replace Sting with ''Rawat Screaming''(nt)
Message:
nt
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