Forum Admin -:- Donald trip et al -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:20:20 (GMT)

__ The Fat Fag -:- And you destroyed my eminem rap song, shame -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:07:15 (GMT)

__ __ Emily Latella -:- What's all this fuss about M&M's? -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 05:13:33 (GMT)

Pat Conlon -:- Most premies in USA and UK are Gujaratis -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:01:17 (GMT)

__ Sean -:- I guess what I heard was true -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:25:43 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- in Flagstaff there is a whole strip of motels -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:51:39 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Selene, 0.1% of expat Gujaratis are premies -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:15:26 (GMT)

__ __ Sean -:- in Flagstaff there is a whole strip of motels -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:17:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- in Flagstaff there is a whole strip of motels -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:19:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Patel Motels -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 20:33:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Patel (totally OT) -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 14:00:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Patel Motels -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 22:02:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yes, my Patels are lame greedy ones (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 03:18:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Did you ever see Mississippi Marsala? -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:26:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Latvian night? Where? When? -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:26:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- We await your return..... -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:58:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Marianne, Monmot - did you get my emails? NT -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:43:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Yes. NT -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 20:18:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Yes...thank you.......NT -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 20:06:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Did you ever see Mississippi Marsala? Yes -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 09:41:03 (GMT)

Tim Matheson -:- We're Not ashamed of M's drug abuse and Sexcapades -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 18:38:42 (GMT)

__ janet -:- We're Not ashamed -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 11:53:17 (GMT)

Besides being Narcisstic, -:- is Goober a Pathological Hoarder? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:45:40 (GMT)

__ Joy -:- Just Greedy Sums it Up -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:08:17 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- Where is your Stepmother from? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:21:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joy -:- Where is your Stepmother from? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:58:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Where is your Stepmother from? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:05:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Joy ? Please ? Where is that post -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 10:24:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Here it is, Jean-Michel -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 19:53:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Where is post about mole leaking yacht story? NT -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:22:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- It's in Joe's More from Maharaji 12/76 Thread -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:33:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks Joy -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:40:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Re: Seen It All Before -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:16:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Good to hear your voice too! n/t -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 00:58:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Joy, knowing the real people -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:24:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ fJoy -:- Joy, knowing the real people -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:37:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Joy, knowing the real people -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:49:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Good luck with your studies... -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:02:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Thanks Monmot. Yes, It Does Feel Good -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:31:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- The Mole -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:42:47 (GMT)

__ Marianne -:- is Goober a Pathological Hoarder? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:54:21 (GMT)

__ __ Kelly -:- is Goober a Pathological Hoarder? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:22:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ JHB -:- is Goober a Pathological Hoarder? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:26:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- is Goober a Pathological Hoarder? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:47:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Thanks for the offer -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:51:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Thanks for the offer -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:25:46 (GMT)

Thelma -:- Pauline was right - I'm not an ex-premie anymore -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:26:11 (GMT)

__ jOhNt -:- Surrender -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 11:23:59 (GMT)

__ __ Thelma -:- I surrender to your superior wisdom, jOhNt -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:17:20 (GMT)

__ Marianne -:- Gotta love the Sisters! OT -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:51:45 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Marianne, I knew you were getting tired of that -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:13:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ Kelly -:- Marianne, who is tired of what? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:57:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Marianne is a wild woman, Kelly -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:04:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- HEY ANTH! Maybe Nigel, Charlie and Lee -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:59:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ TED Farkel -:- Marianne,behave yaself over there with them limeys -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:05:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- TED, you and eDrek are in my dreams... -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 20:30:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ TED Farkel -:- Marianne,I'm thinkin TRAC Latvian over SF.... -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 20:19:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Don't be shy, TED. Right, Thelma? -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 21:06:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Don't be shy, TED. We'll invite Pauline for you. -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 21:27:02 (GMT)

Joe -:- More from Maharaji 12/76 -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 07:41:33 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- Guru Maharaj Ji Is Quite The Surgeon -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 23:29:44 (GMT)

__ Mike Finch -:- More from Maharaji 12/76 -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 13:46:03 (GMT)

__ __ la-ex -:- Mike Finch-thanks,and about that 'other story'.. -:- Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 01:47:16 (GMT)

__ __ CD -:- math and meditation -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 01:26:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- math and meditation -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 03:39:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ suprised -:- suprised -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 04:10:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Look Chris , I'm sorry but... -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 10:47:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Why're u suprised, CD, that no-one talks to you? -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:42:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- A history lesson about Chris Dickey -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 15:59:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- suprised -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 04:19:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Not surprised: coldhearted and insensitive -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 09:31:31 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- Great post Mike, but one small thing... -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:56:53 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Mike, thank you for sharing your story -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:16:56 (GMT)

__ __ Connie -:- Mike, really glad you posted this, thankyou (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 14:33:45 (GMT)

__ Scott T. -:- More from Maharaji 12/76 -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:15:16 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- In-f*cking-credible, Joe -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:50:00 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- I moved INTO the ashram 12/77... -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:06:49 (GMT)

__ SB MAD -:- How sickening!! -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:23:10 (GMT)

__ __ moldy warp -:- How sickening!! yes yes yes!!! -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:46:08 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- one of the best posts and threads ever -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 20:18:13 (GMT)

__ Michael Dettmers -:- More from Maharaji 12/76 -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:22:15 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Well, Michael.... -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 23:43:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Well, Joe.... -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 13:35:36 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- I'd be glad to put it online -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 10:58:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Thanks, JM (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 12:09:37 (GMT)

__ __ la-ex -:- I second Michael's idea for EPO(good work Joe)nt -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:27:33 (GMT)

__ Sandy -:- More from Maharaji 12/76 -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 15:53:58 (GMT)

__ __ Connie -:- Fast forward to late '90's -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:35:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Fast forward to late '90's -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:38:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Connie -:- Yes Pat, it is chilling -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:58:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Connie, I've been trying to get your attention -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 09:37:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- thanks Pat, I'm feeling my way shyly (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 14:43:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Connie, don't be too shy -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 20:18:33 (GMT)

__ __ Sean -:- More from Maharaji 12/76 -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:54:49 (GMT)

__ Katie -:- Amazing that he could say that about marriage -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 15:25:05 (GMT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Supreme Dissonance -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:51:56 (GMT)

__ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- More from Maharaji 12/76 -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 12:27:33 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Great / important post, Patrick ** BEST ** -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 23:09:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I will, Thanks !! (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:43:46 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Thanks Patrick -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:06:35 (GMT)

__ __ Kelly -:- More from Maharaji 12/76, thats one helluva post, -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:18:13 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for taking the time to get that all out n/t -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:42:41 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- Thank you, Joe, for reminding us -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:37:58 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- spoilt brat -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:36:14 (GMT)

__ __ Disculta -:- My Personal Holocaust -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:51:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Don't worry, he ain't cute no more -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 00:24:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ moldy warp -:- To Disculta:My Personal Holocaust -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:01:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- To Moldy -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:45:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- To Disculta -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:09:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- To Moldy -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:11:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- To Monmot -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:59:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Kelly -:- My Personal Holocaust, I'm speechless! -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:39:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Disculta, your Personal Holocaust -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 20:13:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ Monmot -:- Relationships were a prostitution of divine love.. -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 18:59:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- To Monmot and Disculta -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:39:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Shattered truths and shattered illusions.... -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:37:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Babs -:- A Woman Scorned -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 20:50:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- A Woman Scorned -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 22:01:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Booth is/was an emotional cripple... -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:36:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Maybe He Was Just Programmed -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:49:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I agree.... -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:30:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- I was an emotional cripple, too -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 16:50:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Me too...most of us were back then -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 17:04:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Me too...most of us were back then -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 21:55:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for outing Booth ... -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:54:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- good story -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:23:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hell hath no fury....you crack me up, Babs -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:22:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- How many DLM honchos did you blow? Pauline? -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:49:32 (GMT)

Bongo -:- Cleaning up the mess. -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 01:30:24 (GMT)

__ JohnT -:- The fulcrum -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 13:22:22 (GMT)

__ __ JohnT -:- It was ARCHIMEDES (sorry) -NT- -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:51:12 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- If Yosemite Jim did not exist we would have -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:13:41 (GMT)

__ Robyn -:- Cleaning up the mess. -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 07:40:43 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- Cleaning up the mess. -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 05:02:40 (GMT)

Monmot -:- Letter from Steve Hassan to White House.... -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 19:27:41 (GMT)

__ janet -:- when do we draft ours, to second his???...and -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:02:20 (GMT)

__ __ la-ex -:- excellent idea..I second it... -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 05:28:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- excellent idea..we all write it...who edits? -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:41:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Pat,from previous experience I think... -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:31:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- agree -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:03:20 (GMT)

Pat Conlon -:- Psychedelics brought me to guru and drew me away -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 19:13:02 (GMT)

__ Scott T. -:- Psychedelics brought me to guru and drew me away -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 05:08:09 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Maths better than politics but not tantric sex -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 09:22:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Maths better than politics but not tantric sex -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 02:56:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Scott T, I just finished reading your other posts -:- Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 09:53:06 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- Psychedelics brought me to guru and drew me away -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:13:36 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Brain, no drugs, no guru, no religion, just me and -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 05:52:10 (GMT)

__ Roy -:- Psychedelics brought me to guru and drew me away -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 19:54:42 (GMT)

__ __ Postie -:- Another acid head for the Sat Guru -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:58:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Postie, I just knew you were an acid head -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:18:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Pat C, what do you mean by . . . -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:06:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Typo, Postie -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:45:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Toastie Postie -:- 'Acid is as acid does' - Forrest Gump -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 05:09:40 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Psychedelic experience - Tibetan Book of the Dead -:- Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 20:03:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ janet -:- Psychedelic experience - Tibetan Book of the Dead -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 03:50:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Psychedelic experience - Hey I love Mango Pickle, -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 07:29:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- janet, my bitter little mango pickle -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 06:01:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Watch out for the Fox - Headed one with the.. -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:57:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Bin, I would love to know what that means -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 03:04:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- It 's the only recollection I have from the -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 03:59:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Babs -:- From Acid to Tibet via DLM... -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 07:48:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Go Babs go!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:02:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Hi Babs , that old time mountainy man -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:14:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Encore, Babs, I knew it -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:46:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Babs JOHNSON -:- Coming out -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:50:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Don't worry Babs, I outed myself ... -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 07:09:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Babs, I am really falling in love with you -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 20:37:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- BINGO, Pat -- threw out an entire BOX of poetry -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 07:14:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Pat and Babs. You're both bloody good writers -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:17:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks, Kelly, you Irish Lotus -:- Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:11:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Bin, it was all that stuff that put me off Tibetan -:- Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 06:02:52 (GMT)

Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:20:20 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Donald trip et al Message:

Donald trip aka Hepm, John23rd, Jim MOrrison, Jerome etc your last obnoxious post has been removed. You are no longer welcome to post here, if you do so again we will file a complaint with Earthlink and give them all the necessary details to have them identify you and take appropriate action. FA

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:07:15 (GMT) From: The Fat Fag Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: And you destroyed my eminem rap song, shame Message:

You motherfucker. It will be years again before I can put so many dirty words into one post.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 05:13:33 (GMT) From: Emily Latella Email: None To: The Fat Fag Subject: What's all this fuss about M&M's? Message:

Oh, never mind!

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:01:17 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com To: Everyone Subject: Most premies in USA and UK are Gujaratis Message:

There are more Gujarati premies in the Bay Area than Americans. They are educated, hardworking, conservative, religious and sent LOTS of money to Gujarat for earthquake relief. They believe in tithing and send LOTS of money to the urug. I know first hand just how much. These are the premies who need to know that their guru is a crook. The following article may of interest to those who realize that. Gujaratis in the Bay Area

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:25:43 (GMT) From: Sean Email: seang2@earthlink.net To: Pat Conlon Subject: I guess what I heard was true Message:

Interesting article. I've been in quite a few of their homes over the years and most are definitely Hindu, but I haven't seen any evidence of the goo.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:51:39 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: in Flagstaff there is a whole strip of motels Message:

With all these little altars to some Hindi gods, etc. It's weird they all showed up at once, bought out the former owners. It's so dominant that a few of original owners left have signs out 'American owned'. Not making a polical statement about that , just noticing that the aritcle mentions they own all those hotels. Are you saying Pat that many are premies? I'm a little confused.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:15:26 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Selene Subject: Selene, 0.1% of expat Gujaratis are premies Message:

They have been premies since Hans' time. Most of them just worship Krishna and go to satsang where they dance garbas and sing bhajans and eat delicious food. Even the premies tend to be somewhat eclectic when it comes to gurus and go listen to any visiting swami or pundit. In Leicester (UK) they all went to hear Satpal when he came there. The Gujarati premies are the sweetest, kindest most civilized people and not at all fanatical or weird. The urug is just their preacher and K is their religion. Of course they now all have satellites to watch their televangelist guru at home.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:17:13 (GMT) From: Sean Email: seang2@earthlink.net To: Selene Subject: in Flagstaff there is a whole strip of motels Message:

The east coast got taken over years ago (about 25 years ago). From what I was told a family named Patel (they were the first) came over and bought some motels and then started bringing family members over. I don't know if it's true or not and it doesn't matter as long as they don't try to turn this into India. They all seem to be glad to be here. Some of the old folks hang on (just like all immigrants), but I deal with a lot of them (I put a lot of phone systems in motels and maintain them) and they've all been ok. The kids are, of course, completely Americanized.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:19:40 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Sean Subject: in Flagstaff there is a whole strip of motels Message:

My friends the Bhulabai Patels (Patel is a subcaste clan name)own motels in Virginia and most of the Ramadas and other franchise motels in California are owned by Patels. Very conservative family oriented people known as brown Jews in South Africa because they work so hard and are very enterprising and quite stuffy when it comes to mixing with other Indians.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 20:33:28 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Pat Conlon Subject: Patel Motels Message:

Yes, I travel a lot and I stay in a motel owned by Patels and just yesterday they raised the weekly rate by $85 on me. Yes, lovely people.

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 14:00:32 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Patel (totally OT) Message:

Dd you know that Patel is now the most popular surname in the UK? It overtook Smith a couple of years back. John the mine of useless information.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 22:02:11 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Patel Motels Message:

There are also nasty greedy ones Roger. Some of the worst cheap hotels in SF are owned by Patels. No race is 100% perfect.

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 03:18:10 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Pat Conlon Subject: Yes, my Patels are lame greedy ones (nt) Message:

jkh

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:26:15 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Did you ever see Mississippi Marsala? Message:

It's about an Indian family expelled from Uganda who end up in Mississippi and buy a motel. It's basically a Romeo and Juliet type story. The Indian daughter (Sarita Choudhury) falls in love with an African-American man (Denzel Washington) and the usual chaos ensues. Thoght you might enjoy it if you haven't seen it. Any dates set yet for the Latvian Fest in SF?

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:26:43 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Latvian night? Where? When? Message:

You need the EPO Satanic Priestess in order to have a Latvian night in SF! Love, Marianne, SP/EPO

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:58:45 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Marianne Subject: We await your return..... Message:

from Eire once you've completed your Celtic studies. Will you perform the opening ritual, Most Supreme Satanic Priestess? M

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:43:56 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Marianne, Monmot - did you get my emails? NT Message:

b

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 20:18:28 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Yes. NT Message:

xxx

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 20:06:53 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Yes...thank you.......NT Message:

mm

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 09:41:03 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com To: Monmot Subject: Did you ever see Mississippi Marsala? Yes Message:

email me re Latvian night.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 18:38:42 (GMT) From: Tim Matheson Email: None To: Everyone Subject: We're Not ashamed of M's drug abuse and Sexcapades Message:

No, indeed we are not. This is just another test. We cannot possibly understand OUR LORD MAHARAJI because we are no better than dingleberry's stuck in HIS RECTUM....so there!!!

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 11:53:17 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Tim Matheson Subject: We're Not ashamed Message:

y'see, Tim:to be ashamed, you have to feel somehow like you are a part of someone and that there is a relationship. In other words, you would have to mistake them for yourself and vice versa. they refer to this confusion as enmeshment. a confusion and commingling of identities to the point where you experience what they do as if you had done it. since I have not felt for a long time like there is anything relating me to him, i feel no shame, for him, about him, with him, or of him. the shame is all his. or will be, if he ever wakes up and gets a conscience or a moral compass. the acts are his, the conduct is his, and what he does reflects only on him. it does not reflect on me at all my acts are mine, no one else's. his are his.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:45:40 (GMT) From: Besides being Narcisstic, Email: gkl1@techline.com To: Everyone Subject: is Goober a Pathological Hoarder? Message:

The UW is offering a continuing education course on this type of abberant behavior. It states, in part, that this pathological hoarding usually begins in young adulthood. We have all heard about the warehouses full of junk that rawart maintains, as well as his famous 'collections'. Could this be indicative of an 'upscale' version of this malady? --gerry

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:08:17 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Besides being Narcisstic, Subject: Just Greedy Sums it Up Message:

Marianne's assessment of his greed is probably more accurate. Actually, I think that when some people who aren't born in the West and come from poorer countries have access to Western materialism they tend to become greedy and can never have enough. My stepmother is a case in point. She has more, materially, than just about anyone I can think of, but yet she acts like she's poor, pinches pennies, clips coupons and is totally paranoid, basically, that she never has enough. I think it comes from growing up in an impoverished background. They get a bit starry-eyed and ga-ga in the California materialistic scene--the most advanced materialism on the planet--and like a starving person stuffing their face at the buffet, basically can't get enough. It's kind of sad. Though I'm sure there's more pathological stuff there in M's case, also, since he basically believes it's all there for his taking anyhow, since he's the LOTU, so why shouldn't he have it all?

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:21:51 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Joy Subject: Where is your Stepmother from? Message:

Just being nosy. John.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:58:46 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: JHB Subject: Where is your Stepmother from? Message:

Palestine. So's my father. He left in 1949, after the war with Israel, and my stepmother came to California to marry him around 1969, after my parents divorced. Their whole community, from Ramallah, is pretty much in the U.S. now, transported lock-stock-and-barrel.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:05:12 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Joy Subject: Where is your Stepmother from? Message:

I asked because my Latvian relatives had totally unrealistic ideas about how wealthy we all were in the west before, and immediately after, the break up of the Soviet Union. Fortunately, things are gradually changing as more interaction occurs. I do think that Rawat initially didn't think there was anything wrong with accepting and even asking for material comforts when he first came. But now, he has no excuse. Did you see the post about EV trying to locate the mole who leaked the info on the yacht? John.

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 10:24:12 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: JHB Subject: Joy ? Please ? Where is that post Message:

about EV trying to locate the mole ? I'm gathering all these sories ....

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 19:53:54 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Here it is, Jean-Michel Message:

It is in Patrick (Anon)'s post. He said: ''BTW Elan Vital have been sniffing around Miami asking how this info about the yacht was leaked to this site -I have it on good authority that this is a major area that they are keen to keep out of public knowledge.'' It's in this post: Here

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:22:12 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: JHB Subject: Where is post about mole leaking yacht story? NT Message:

goody

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:33:14 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: It's in Joe's More from Maharaji 12/76 Thread Message:

It's a sentence or two buried in your namesake Patrick (formerly Anon)'s really incredible long post. I also enjoyed your ditty to Joe, BTW, about the Lard being a Krishna-drag-queen, that cracked me up royally. Love, Joy

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:40:04 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joy Subject: Thanks Joy Message:

Hope you are well and happy. I wish you would post more. You are sooo dry and ooze this air of seen it all.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:16:35 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Re: Seen It All Before Message:

Hi Patrick. I hope I don't come off as *too* dry! Actually, I find the Forum incredibly time (and consciousness) consuming, so try and not post too much since there's already so many articulate and entertaining voices on here who can say it so much better than me (yourself included). Hal and Brian Smith's posts in the Now & Zen thread are just amazing, for instance. As for having 'seen it all before', I have been an 'ex' for almost 20 years now -- how time does fly! There's lots going on in my life, including, for instance, trying to study for a degree with the Open University, something I should have done in my 20s or at the least 30s, but thanks to getting derailed by M never got around to. OU study is pretty academically rigorous, so it takes up a lot of my [limited] mental energy sometimes. But one of the reasons I'm 'hooked' these days, is I counted up all the folks who post regularly on here now that I know, used to live in the ashram with or have been friends with before/after K, and it's SEVEN of the regular posters! It's hard to stay away when you know so many of the voices for real (yourself, Joe, Fran, Charles, Disculta, Tim G., Postie), this is one helluvan interesting ongoing conversation and to see people I know well from different situations who've never met each other going at it anonymously online is just so fun. P.S. Expect an e-mail from me soon -- I may be coming to visit you at your restaurant!!

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 00:58:00 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Joy Subject: Good to hear your voice too! n/t Message:

exculta

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:24:38 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joy Subject: Joy, knowing the real people Message:

It sure is funny how there are five of us regular posters who all knew each other at one time here in SF and three other exes who don't post and maybe even more. So you know Postie. I wish you would tell him to get to know me. I just love Postie's posts. I had a bit of a queasy moment when you mentioned the restaurant as I had made up my mind not to mention it on FV in case some nutter walked in one day but life is too short to be paranoid. Anyway it's where we will have latvian night. But I am looking forward to your email and that we may even see you soon.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:37:24 (GMT) From: fJoy Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Joy, knowing the real people Message:

Gee, sorry about that Patrick. Perhaps you can get FA to delete that little sentence? I had thought I heard you talking about it on the Forum before, but perhaps I was mistaken. It's hard to remember what you read and where and when with so much cyber-information floating around these days. I was also a little hesitant to name the names I knew, since some still prefer anonymity (Postie included). Trying to respect people's anonymity is really testing my tendency to be a blabbermouth and a gossip. It is fun watching you guys trying to figure out who you all are, though! One of these days all will be revealed, I'm sure.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:49:10 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: fJoy Subject: Joy, knowing the real people Message:

No, I've decided not to be worried about people knowing about the restaurant. I actually prefer not to have secrets which is why I cannot stand the urug with his dirty dark little secrets which he keeps revising. He too is hiding behind his Mharaji alias. Most of my favorite anonymous posters have let me know who they are by email. I just wish Postie would let me know because I feel like I know him already.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:02:16 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Joy Subject: Good luck with your studies... Message:

I just earned my degree in 1998, and believe me, it felt damn good. Congrats.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:31:09 (GMT) From: Joy Email: joy52@earthlink.net To: Monmot Subject: Thanks Monmot. Yes, It Does Feel Good Message:

. . . to exercise the old Brain (aka Mind). Nigel is another one here who is also doing degree work (post-grad). He claims it's a great avenue for cult recovery, and I agree. So, to anybody who's let their education slide due to involvement with the goo-roo, there's lots of really good distance learning type colleges and degrees available these days -- same academic study as if you attended physically, but tailored for working people, moms, etc. E-mail me if you want more info! You really have to be disciplined, though, something I'm not being at the moment by reading/posting on the Forum! Time to get that 2,000 word essay started . . .

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:42:47 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: JHB Subject: The Mole Message:

Yeah, how paranoid, eh? Actually, I love it that there are moles out there, kind of lends an espionage-like intrigue to the whole thing, doesn't it? Seems like it's making him even more paranoid than he already is. I'm sure the U.S. must be *much* more well-to-do than Russia (with the exception of those wonderful old palaces), right? I'm pretty grossed out by the advanced runaway materialism here, though. Spending some time back in Seattle area I was shocked by it when I first came back from being in the UK, it really seems totally over-the-top (lots of Microsoft money here). Then after awhile it just starts to seem normal that every other car is a Lexus or fancy SUV or Mercedes. And California's even worse (I grew up there so feel qualified to comment). My stepmother is on first name basis with most of the clerks at Nordstrom! I think we just take it for granted, and the rest of the world doesn't live this way at all. I don't know how Maharaji can live with himself, though, when he has amassed SO much, and the Indian premies are SO poor that some have to walk days through the desert just to get to his stupid ashram and festivals. The man must really have no conscience, continually asking for even more. I think greed is something that's very hard to get in check once it takes hold and M is definitely out of control with it. Obscene and pathetic, really.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:54:21 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie To: Besides being Narcisstic, Subject: is Goober a Pathological Hoarder? Message:

No, Dgerry (hahaha), he's just greedy. I wouldn't dignify his selfish little antics as a mental impairment. That would let him off the hook a bit in my book. No way.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:22:17 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Marianne Subject: is Goober a Pathological Hoarder? Message:

I,m really pissed off. I wrote a long, detailed and ,if I may say so , eloquent post, then someone phoned me and the whole thing disappeared...Where is it? This is the third time this has happenned..so I'm not going to bother again....I'm fed up! Looking forward to Latvian night when I can talk face to face with you guys. love Kelly I guess someone's hoarding my posts! Who or what can it be?

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:26:30 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Kelly Subject: is Goober a Pathological Hoarder? Message:

Kelly, You probably forgot to click on 'post' after clicking on 'submit'. I've made the same error a few times, but I've found using the back button on your browser can get the screen with your post back if you haven't done too much or closed your browser since. John.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:47:54 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: JHB Subject: is Goober a Pathological Hoarder? Message:

No, it wasn't that at all, the message disappeared from it's box...I started out with just an idea to write a short post, got carried away and developed my ideas...Could I have timed out or something...? I was up to about two pages. If I had planned to write that much in the first place, I would probably have written it in Word and saved it, but because I just did it here and now( I must admit I'm waiting for it to disappear again!!!) Oh what the hell! it wasn't earth shattering anyway1 Thanks for the friendly support, and I look forward to meeting you on Latvian night. maybe you could examine my laptop? Love Kelly

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:51:10 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Thanks for the offer Message:

maybe you could examine my laptop? One of the best offers I've had this year:-) John.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:25:46 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: JHB Subject: Thanks for the offer Message:

That's what you think!! Are you used to dealing with disappointment? Well you should be by now! After all you were a premie right...? I'm not prepared to leave anything to chance any more, We're gonna have a whale of a time OK? Love Kelly

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:26:11 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: thunderstealing@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Pauline was right - I'm not an ex-premie anymore Message:

Pauline PWK you were right, I really am in my mind and not participating in a synchronized way. I'm not an ex-premie anymore. I'm going back to being a PWK. Since the day I first posted here I have been insulted. I've been called a ''hydra-headed monster'' and ''sad fucking faggot;'' been told to ''stick my head up my ass'' and villified on ''Anything Goes'' as ''that transvestite fag from San Francisco.'' And Jim , the forum fuhrer called me smug and told me to fuck off. Enough's enough! Now there's all sorts of fights breaking out all over the forum. What's a poor old flower child fag to do? It just makes me feel all weepy. Just stop it, you hear, otherwise I'm going straight back to being a church lady in the non-cult of Elan Vital. At least the PWKs don't say such nasty things to each other - well not any more, not like in the old days when they would tell you you're insane and remember holy name because you were in your mind. I miss going to the new, modern, neutral, non-threatening local video events where I would straighten out the white table-cloths on the propagation table, the information table, the donation table, the video library table, the jug of water and paper cups table, the table with the aspidistra on it and the table where no one would put anything because, Mr Natural, the local crusty PWK who still has the gall to call himself a ''premie'' and talk about lotus feet in front of the aspirant much to the embarrassment of the local instructor, always parked his skinny butt on it and the BO lingered. I miss Ken and Barbie Precious telling me how exited they were to have gone to India but they might not be able to go to Amaroo if they bought a new car and how Mwaji had just completely and totally - ''it was so awesome'' - explained Knowledge at Hans Jayanti. ''On the first day,'' Barbie cooed; ''Mwaji talked about how precious life was. On the second day he talked about the breath and, on the third day, he talked about the Master (hushed tones, conspiratorial smile) - Oooohwee! But I haven't been able to digest anything since and my... you know bowels... aren't... it's probably just the food you know. Now, I was thinking of putting propagation packages on the next nexus team agenda but of course I won't push it if there isn't unanimity. We really need to upgrade them. There's this fabulous new booklet out with Mwaji's words done in sepia. It's soooo cool...and it's never been done before since the beginning of history and...'' On second thoughts I think I prefer you guys warts and all. And as for you non-warts, I really enjoy your company. And for you warts: Con Fu Syoo say, ''Anger and hatred are two-edged swords; make sure the edge facing you is blunt. Be as detached as a grasshopper or is that as nimble as a....you know...whatever.'' This is my new religion. Your Sins are Forgiven Compliments of The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 11:23:59 (GMT) From: jOhNt Email: None To: Thelma Subject: Surrender Message:

Jim , the forum fuhrer called me smug and told me to fuck off. Thelma, Part of the process of growing as a person and leaving the cult is coming to accept that one of the attractions was the feeling of being special and different. Or sanctimonious and superior, as outsiders tend to see it. I mention this, because, you understand, had Jim treated you otherwise than he did, you might have felt special and different here - and that would have only reinforced the abject conditioning Rawat inflicted on you. No, by belabouring you in the style to which you became accustomed while in the cult, Sant Jim Ji was merely trying to make you feel at home here. Like, what makes you so special that you should escape castigation from more developed Beings? After all, no-one else does. Not here, at any rate. And you did suggest (and not too tactfully, as I recall) that his multi-cultural understanding was a tad on the shakey side. I can't think how you got that idea, myself, but it upset him. We all upset him. We are so fallen and confused. I know it's all so terribly enigmatic, but try to learn from the experience, Thelma. Surrendering in that way will make you a better person. Trust me on this one.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:17:20 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: None To: jOhNt Subject: I surrender to your superior wisdom, jOhNt Message:

You always explain things so sanely. It's so comforting to know that Yosemite Jim loves me the same as everyone else. The Fat Fag aka Bugs Bunny

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:51:45 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Thelma Subject: Gotta love the Sisters! OT Message:

There they are, in all their glory! They're so great. But they get hauled out all the time as the centerpiece of the Religious Right's campaign against the gay community. I love it when they go up to St. Mary's Cathedral and leaflet at Sunday Mass. The local TV stations always show pictures of parents denouncing them and covering their kids' eyes. Don't worry, Mom and Dad, at least one of your offspring will want to join up immediately, just because you didn't let them see! Thanks for that link, Pat. A nice slice of my hometown when I am beginning to feel a bit homesick. Love, Marianne

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:13:40 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Marianne, I knew you were getting tired of that Message:

Blarney and need some high camp.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:57:57 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Marianne, who is tired of what? Message:

Hey Pat, Please don't encourage her...I'm getting a bit worried, because, like your friend Thelma, I'm a respectable middle aged tablecloth smoother, and I have to share a room with this wild woman. So could you just sort of chill out and maybe suggest some books on embroidery or something. I mean , What is she like? help me please Kelly

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:04:45 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Marianne is a wild woman, Kelly Message:

You would be too if you had lived in San Francisco as long as she has. But, seriously, who could be softer hearted than someone who defends the indefensible, the lowest of the low who on death row? She's a snookie.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:59:44 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Anth Subject: HEY ANTH! Maybe Nigel, Charlie and Lee Message:

Would you please reassure Kelly that I am an acceptable roomie? She's freaking out way in advance of Latvian night! Love (check's in the mail), Marianne

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:05:50 (GMT) From: TED Farkel Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Marianne,behave yaself over there with them limeys Message:

Dear Marianne- Girl, it sounds like you is getting ready to have one hell of a shindig over there with them Englishmen... I could maybe send over a coupla 'Maha-brews' for the gang, if ya'd like... Like Mr.eDrek says, they're affordably priced at $3.00 US/bottle, but I'd be happy to send a case over for you, Kelly, Anth and the rest of them English rowdies... Sincerely, TED Farkel Don't worry, Dave Smith is gone,but you're right, he does get a little funny late at night with them sows out back... But I kinda grew fond of Dave, especally after having the Raja with me after that. Gotta go, gettin ready for our first 'Auto Knowledge DVD Review', via satellite.... Life's a wonderful thing.. BTW, have you seen 'Oh brother, where art thou?...kinda gives a little picture of life in Shaft,Alabama... Jai Satchitanand,sister....and when you've had a few foamies, think of ole TED Farkel and my associate, Mr.eDrek, will ya?

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 20:30:21 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: TED Farkel Subject: TED, you and eDrek are in my dreams... Message:

every night! Yes, the London Latvian night is shaping up to be quite some event. I am looking forward to it. But hey TED, maybe you, eDrek and I could have our own private get-together, the 3 of us if you know what I mean, after the Latvian night in San Francisco. Even though you're a premie, I think I could convince the other exes to let you attend, based on your sense of humor alone. What do you say? Why don't you come along to SF and see the pretty sights? And having you both (Rafael says it's ok), why that's enough to make me foam at the mouth with anticipation! Love always, Marianne PS Do you think David Smith has gone over to England? They've had a bad outbreak of foot and mouth disease there. Maybe it's a coincidence....

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 20:19:35 (GMT) From: TED Farkel Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Marianne,I'm thinkin TRAC Latvian over SF.... Message:

Dear Miss Marianne- I sho do appreciate yur kind invitation to SF, but I don't know if ole country boy TED Farkel can handle some of the SF crowd...just not sure what I might run into out there, and bein a new DVD premie, am trying to keep on the 'straight and narrow', if ya know what I mean...(Of course, with the help of almighty lord and Mr. eDrek as well...) So, I'm thinkin Latvian Night in Alabama with the boys at the TRAC Center...I got the loft that David Smith slept in, (and Raja didn't sleep in) for the boys, and well you know where you're always welcome, at TED's..... Ya'll take care Marianne, and don't let those limeys teach you any bad tricks that might take you away from our lord....(I was gonna say 'don't do anything that our lord wouldn't do, but that covers a lotta ground, if ya know what I mean..) TED Farkel will call the latvians if you're on line that night...

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 21:06:31 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: TED Farkel Subject: Don't be shy, TED. Right, Thelma? Message:

The San Franciscans love everyone, even people from Alabama. We can satisfy your every desire here! Ardently, Marianne

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 21:27:02 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Don't be shy, TED. We'll invite Pauline for you. Message:

And tell Roger that I'll do the child-care service if he insists.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 07:41:33 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76 Message:

I finished listening to the tape of the coordinators meeting Maharaji held on December 20, 1976 in Atlantic City, NJ. This meeting followed a program Maharaji gave on the weekend of December 18, 1976. I remember going to that program from Chicago, where I was living at the time. At this program, Maharaji wore his Krisha crown and outfit again, and we all lined up and kissed his feet, which hadn't happened for awhile. Listening to this tape was odd. On the one hand, it caused a big knot in my stomach from all the fear Maharaji was exuding. On the other hand, I have to say, despite the god-awful, distasteful and destructive things Maharaji was saying, I found his banter quite charming. Of course, this was when Maharaji was about 19 or so, and still kinda cute. But cute with the tongue of the devil, because he really fucked the the minds of those people, and all the rest of us. As I said below, a many ashram premies moved out of the ashrams in 1976, many encouraged by the leadership of Divine Light Mission that that was what Maharaji wanted. A lot of the ashrams closed, but most major cities in the US and Canada still had ashrams at the time of this program. In the meeting, people asked a number of questions about the ashrams and what Maharaji planned to do with them. Here are some things that were said: Maharaji said a number of times in this meeting that ashrams were a 'lifelong' committment and that people who moved into them had to have that expectation. [This goes to the lie that Elan Vital is now saying on its website that the ashrams were intended to be for a short period of time. It also makes it all the more outrageous that Maharaji dumped the ashram premies, who had abandoned education, relationships and careers to be there, onto the streets, and closed the ashrams in 1983 without any explanation why and without explaining that he must have been lying or just plain wrong when he spoke about the life-long committment.] This tape also exposes other lies on the Elan Vital website that the ashrams were 'shelters' to protect premies from drugs. Here is what Maharaji said about the ashrams at this meeting. The ashram is for prople who have dedicated their lives for their lifetime. When you understand that the purpose of your life is to understand knowledge and to devote your life to Maharaji, then ashram makes sense and is really required. Ashram is intensive care provided by Guru Maharaj Ji. Guru Maharaj Ji knows how to operate on us and he is the surgeon. See, you have a disease, and you have been given medicine for the disease, and that's good, which is knowledge. But we need intensive care to recover from the disease because we can fall back into the disease. And the ashram is Guru Maharaj Ji's hospital. Ashram is the place we all need to come from but some people can't be there because they are married. Later in the meeting, Maharaji reiterates that the ashram is always for a lifetime. In fact, Maharaji says you have to be there a long time for ashram to have the effect on you it is supposed to have. He said it was like you were in an accident and hit glass that wasn't safety glass, and many splinters of glass have to be pulled out of you slowly and painfully. [I guess this is in line with recovering from disease. God, what a mindfuck Maharaji performed on us!!] Some coordinator from Canada said that he was in the ashram program but discovered that he needed a wife and if there were a married couples ashram there would be no confusion for him, but asked Maharaji about that. Maharaji said that there wouldn't be married ashrams, just 'retreats' that would be run by the ashram coordinator that married couples could come to on their vacations and life the ashram lifestyle [sounds like a fantastic vacation, surely better than Club Med, but I don't think this ever happened.] Then Maharaji said: Do you need a wife, or does something else need a wife? [Then Maharaji went into this long thing about something he saw on TV about (probably) Christine Jorgenson who had a sex change operation. He said that if this guy got such an operation, he wouldn't want a wife, he'd want a husband.] HUH? Then, he said: A wife is not a human necessity. It is desire. It is just an extension of mind. Right now your mind is saying you want a wife, but if it's just a wife, why do you want the second thing, you say I want a child, and I want this and I want that. Somehow mind traps you at the weakest spot. That's the way mind taps into you. Do you want a wife, but this is really just an extension of mind. Then another person asks about people who had moved out of the ashram and got married, and asks Maharaji what they should do. Here is what Maharaji says: This is what you should tell them. If you take a stick of dynamite, and stick it down your throat, and light the other end with the fuse, what's gonna happen? (laughing) Who would you blame that on? The point is, who's gotta pay for that? Look, they are married and it's ridiculous for them to get divorced. ...It was an irrational and wrong move to get married. It isn't the answer, knowledge is the answer. [Maharaji proceeds to talk about marriages that 'aren't working' and how they are worse than hell.] He continues: Whatever you sow, you reap it yourself and if it isn't working out, you are gonna reap that too....Service to Guru Maharaj Ji is personal self-dedication. [Getting married] was a flip-flop move and it's a sad sight, why did they do that? Why, because it's an extension of mind. There is more to come. There is a big section on how fucked up 'Denver' was, what a big slime-pit 'workshops' that premies had gotten involved with are, and how they are/were just MIND, and just wait, till you hear what he had to say about smoking dope, and also eating meat and eggs, and, get this, drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes. And he really bad-mouthed Chicago, once again. Regarding Chicago, he said, speaking to Sharon Stokke, who I think was coordinator in Chicago at the time: Chicago. Chicago, some place. Really. I don't know how people live in Chicago. Lotta maya, maya, maya there. I have been told that in Maharaj's truncated mind, he still, in 1976, associated Chicago with Al Capone and gangsters from all the television he had watched. Not sure, though, but I had heard him say things like this on other occasions. Oh, and at the end of the coordinators meeting, they all lined up, again, and one-by-one, kissed Maharaji's feet. Yuck, gag, barf! Anyhow, more to come. Comments, please.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 23:29:44 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Guru Maharaj Ji Is Quite The Surgeon Message:

Guru Maharaj Ji knows how to operate on us and he is the surgeon. Quack quack. Steve The Duck

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 13:46:03 (GMT) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: All Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76 Message:

This is a very poignant thread. I have picked up my metaphorical pen several times to post, but found it too painful. I left the ashram twice to get married, and went through hell - even now words fail me ! When M came to England in 71, I don't remember any cult. Of course, there was him as the guru, Lord, etc, but the premies as a group were really loving and kind to each other. I used to drive M in a 15-seater van, and when we set off, anyone who was around was able to pile in - no security, no pecking order as to who was allowed and who wasn't. When he was back in England in late 71, I remember the cult beginning. The pecking order started, but was no problem to me, as I was in the inner circle as M's driver, close servant, confidante, and generally the lad of the moment. In Boulder in 72 I became good friends with Bob Mishler, and we spent quite a bit of time talking deep and intimate thoughts to each other. When M came to England in early 72, Bihari Singh was ill and in hospital, and I was really in - the possible successor to the great Bihari, the front-runner in the closest-premie-to-M stakes. Later in 72 I got married - the first of the ashram coordinator-ashram housemother matches I think in England. And suddenly it was like a ton of bricks were thrown at me. Premies who a month or two before were trying to touch my feet (I am a bit embarrassed about that, but it is a fact), suddenly treated me like a leper. I was shunned beyond anything imaginable. People who I regarded as close friends, loving servants of the Lord like I was, treated me with hate and revulsion, or even worse, with cold indifference. When Bob Mishler came to England, he looked right through me as if I didn't exist. The rest of the 70's was like a nightmare - in this surreal, Kafka-like world I was like an outcast trying desperately to get back to the love, light and safety of the inner circle, that I had so foolishly disarded. Even now, 25 years later, this thread has stirred up a whole lot of memories that I can't even begin to put on paper (metaphorically). I left the ashram for my second marriage at the end of the 70's, and went through many of the same kind of experiences, but with a difference. This time I realised that many of the ashram internees were fooling around and not taking it seriously. However, the struggle to get to the inner circle was taken VERY seriously, it was only that the ashram was no longer the only path to the inner circle. And so it proved, because of determination, desperation, and longing in all its forms, in the late 80s and early 90s I got back into the inner circle. But that is another story, as they say. Like several people have said in this thread, one lesson I have clearly learnt - never again will I allow myself to be treated like this. Of course, you can point the finger all over the place, but I allowed it to happen - that is my lesson. Back in 69, I was in a monastery doing Buddhist Vipassana meditation, when one of the original 5 Western premies came to see me and told me about M and K, and off I went. Now in 2001 I am back doing this same meditation. Quite a 32-year break ! -- Mike

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Date: Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 01:47:16 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Mike Finch-thanks,and about that 'other story'.. Message:

Mike- Thanks so much for your post about your past involvement with m. I got involved in 1971-2, and now, after leaving in the last year, find myself also doing some of the things I did before m's 30 year 'intervention'. I was wondering if you would be willing to share with us the 'other story' that you mentioned, when you got back into the inner circle in the late 8's and early 90's... Thanks for posting, La-ex

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 01:26:05 (GMT) From: CD Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: math and meditation Message:

>Back in 69, I was in a monastery doing Buddhist Vipassana meditation, when one of the original 5 Western premies came to see me and told me about M and K, and off I went. Now in 2001 I am back doing this same meditation. Quite a 32-year break ! You mentioned the ashram and M stuff of course as a major part of your 32 year break. Did any of your studies in advanced math give you any insights or impressions that relate to the whole notion of meditation and existence of the individual? Is a person ideas, thoughts and molecular structure or something else? How much can logical analysis tell us about who we are? Your take on these questions may be even more valuable than how your personal life transpired in the context of the ashram and M environment. CD

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 03:39:06 (GMT) From: Patrick (formerly Anon) Email: None To: CD Subject: math and meditation Message:

How much can logical analysis tell us about who we are?Your take on these questions may be even more valuable than how your personal life transpired in the context of the ashram and M environment. CD Your post sticks out like a sore thumb in that you are alone in your abjectly feeble, failed attempt to get Mike to change the subject! I'm afraid that your post sounds to me like a thinly disguised mean and nasty put down CD. You sound very much like you are trying to belittle or discourage Mike from telling his story . Now, how's about giving him some support to speak frankly of his personal life with M instead of brown-nosing him to change the subject? No wonder people lose their patience with you ! My guess is that you read here because there is plenty of truth to attract you - never mind this 'logical analysis' red-herring! What right do you have to suggest that Mike's personal story is less valuable than his ideas about life? Jesus, you are so transparent sometimes. Flatter him about his great intellect and he might shut up about the Maharaji stuff, right?? Aghh! I could scream!

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 04:10:43 (GMT) From: suprised Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: suprised Message:

>Your post sticks out like a sore thumb in that you are alone in your abjectly feeble, failed attempt to get Mike to change the subject! I'm afraid that your post sounds to me like a thinly disguised mean and nasty put down CD. I am suprised! I meant what I said. Mike did some advanced studies for a very particular reason and I am interested in his feedback from what he learned. Apparently the people on this site are obsessed. He can certainly continue the original subject AND possibly offer some insights on this other tack I have brought up. Its up to him. CD

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 10:47:50 (GMT) From: Patrick (formerly Anon) Email: None To: suprised Subject: Look Chris , I'm sorry but... Message:

Chris, I apologise if I over-reacted ( it was 3.00 am and I was tired) but you said to Mike Finch: Your take on these questions may be even more valuable than how your personal life transpired in the context of the ashram and M environment. That certainly sounds like you consider his chosen topic LESS important. I just want to know why you think that. Sure he can .. 'continue the original subject AND possibly offer some insights on this other tack' that you have brought up. But, I repeat my question to you only put a different way... Really why do you suppose that that Mike's ideas about life are more valuable than his personal story as he feels he wishes to tell it now?

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:42:51 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: suprised Subject: Why're u suprised, CD, that no-one talks to you? Message:

At least not in a relaxed and easygoing way. You put people on the defensive because of your obvious hidden agenda. You come off sounding evasive, elliptical and smarmy. Come right out and say that you are hoping to put doubt into some poor wavering exes head, CD, with you little tidbits of metaphysics and references to the supernatural and your ''teacher.'' I recognise it all - the premie being kind enough to try to save the exes from perdition. I have been all for giving you the benefit of the doubt and have considered that it may be that you are looking for the sort of intellectual stimulation and sincere discussion that you cannot find with premies because of their self-imposed philosophical limitations and general indifference to anyone else except Rev Rawat. But I have come to the conclusion that you simply feel self-righteous and smug in your Knowledge that YOU HAVE A MASTER and therefore are more realized and humble than us poor manmuts who wander in our minds and you love to drop hints at that. No one wants to talk to you until you come clean and say what it is that you want from posting here. No one even congratulated you on your self-announced ''good karma'' for getting two guitars cheaply. No one really cares about you because ultimately you don't really care enough about yourself or us to just be honest and sincere, simple and straightforward.

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 15:59:14 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: A history lesson about Chris Dickey Message:

Once upon a time, a long time ago, in a forum just like this, I got very, very frustrated trying to talk with CD. Indeed, I wasn't the only one. EVERYONE felt the same: the guy was impossible. Now at that time, Katie was the only one who had expressed any fondness for the guy and he, being at least partially human, at times acknowledges the warmth. As Katie put it, they were friends. (As I, too, am partially human, I, too, was able to be friends with her.) As CD's friend, Katie was not willing to accept what others of us thought we saw, that being one asshole motherfucker, enjoying winding us up again and again and again. Instead, she suggested, maybe he was just brain-damaged. So, at my bidding, because she was the one person who had any chance at all of getting through to him, Katie tried. She asked him, in private, the one question I was just dying to have answered: did he know frustrating it was for the rest of us to try to talk with him? Unfortunately, believe it or not, Chris didn't answer her question. Instead, he just snarled at her, told her to mind her own business and that was it. So, really, everyone, if you think that you can ever crack this nut, forget it. What I suggest you do, instead, is continue to give him the benefit of the doubt. Coat that irritating grain of sand with enough love and soon enough you've got a pearl. What's the matter? Don't got enough love? Sheesh!

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 04:19:04 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: suprised Subject: suprised Message:

Are you aware of the fact that you frustrate the hell out of people here? If so, why do you think that is? In particular, people talk about the style and contents of your posts. They call them evasive, elliptical or, as I did recently, blatant lies. Why do you think people criticize your posts like that? Is it just because we're 'obsessed'? Is that it? Is that what you honestly believe? These are fair questions, Chris. Would you please answer them? I mean, what's the use trying to start some sort of esoteric dialogue about higher math when everyone who's ever tried to talk with you here complains about how hard that is?

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 09:31:31 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Jim Subject: Not surprised: coldhearted and insensitive Message:

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed by Patrick, Pat and Jim re: CD's posts. He's disingenuous. CD, Mike just poured his heart out about something near and dear to his him. This is a post that took a bit of time and painful reflection to write. And your comment is that you want to know about MATH. You don't understand any of the emotional subtext of what was said. You did not HEAR Mike. You only heard yourself. That is one of the most offensive characteristics that premies develop, and you've got it in spades. Yes, I've become very short tempered with you, because you deserve it. Come around to your senses, lad. We are EX premies. The only reason you're allowed to post here is because of the entertainment value you provide -- because you demonstrate so plainly what is wrong with the cult and with M's followers. This post is a perfect example of it. I am being harsh with you because Mike is struggling to come to terms with having been involved with the cult for longer than most everyone here, and is on his way out, a emotionally draining and difficult process. Your post was an insult to his emotional struggle precisely because you ignored the depth of what he was trying to express. You cannot acknowledge that process or what it represents because you are a die hard apologist for Captain Rawat -- a man who is responsible for having harmed the lives of many who post here. Your insipid posts are just as offensive as Bjorn's as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, that's exactly the way I feel. Marianne

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:56:53 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Great post Mike, but one small thing... Message:

Mike wrote:- When M came to England in 71, I don't remember any cult. Of course, there was him as the guru, Lord, etc, but the premies as a group were really loving and kind to each other. I know what you mean about it not being a cult at the time, but all the seeds were there, including the one essential ingredient, the worship of another human being as superior (or in this case Lord!). Sure, the bureaucracy wasn't yet there, but the feeling that you had something special, different to other people, was there, as was the desire to get other recruits. The fact that everyone felt love, excitement, freshness, and innocence, does not mean it wasn't a cult. So sorry, Mike, even that small handful of people was a cult as far as I can see. BTW I remember you and Maggie (?) coming to a Saturday 'open day' at Brighton ashram in 1974. I had only had knowledge a few months and Maggie said she hadn't meditated for months. I couldn't believe she said that, and in fact didn't believe she meant it! I rationalised it as she meant something else - I can't even remember what:-) John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:16:56 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Mike, thank you for sharing your story Message:

I know FV is not the best place in the world to post personal stuff but every now and then a post will touch someone else and help them to break free of past pains and understand some mystery or untie soem knot. There are many more readers than posters if you look at the hit figures and everynow and then a new poster will appear who says so-and-so's post rang a bell. Your story will probably mean a lot to those who were right at the top. I hope you are well and happy.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 14:33:45 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Mike, really glad you posted this, thankyou (nt) Message:

ssmmiillee

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:15:16 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Joe Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76 Message:

Joe: The only possible excuse is that the guy was just too stupid or corrupt to know any better. And since he denies it happened at all he'd either have to be REAL stupid (as in candidate for the Special Olympics) or he's just plain old corrupt. And not too corrupt to know better either, because in that case he wouldn't have changed his story. Then, he said: A wife is not a human necessity. It is desire. It is just an extension of mind. Tell that to the Shakers. On the other hand, they kept their 'Ashrams' open until the last one died, and managed to produce a lot of great craft work. But two generations is about all you get out of that deal. How old did you say he was? Five? --Scott

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:50:00 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joe Subject: In-f*cking-credible, Joe Message:

I'm speechless for once.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:06:49 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Joe Subject: I moved INTO the ashram 12/77... Message:

...and out of the ashram and out of the sphere of MahaFake's influence in autumn of 1978. And I never heard that shit. Although if I did, I'm sure I would have framed it as Wisdom from on High. Although I was an 'ashram premie,' I was pretty much totally out of the loop. Satsang, service, meditation and substitute teaching. That was about it. In the few months before I left, I was house father in a Denver ashram that had a few premies that must have been old IHQ dregs, I guess, but at least they had the juice to get me into 'darshan service' for what was to be my last festival as a devotee. When you're in a cult, and on the fringes, as 99% of us were,you have to stay in by manufacturing whatever beliefs are necessary to keep you believing. Once you get out, you say 'how could I have been so dense,' but...hey, we're human. Humans believe things. Another subject, I know. Anyway, MahaFake was (is) pretty dense his own self, and abusive too. At least we tried to be nice to one another. We were at least a little smart.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:23:10 (GMT) From: SB MAD Email: None To: Joe Subject: How sickening!! Message:

Ashram is intensive care provided by Guru Maharaj Ji. Guru Maharaj Ji knows how to operate on us and he is the surgeon. See, you have a disease, and you have been given medicine for the disease, and that's good, which is knowledge. But we need intensive care to recover from the disease because we can fall back into the disease. And the ashram is Guru Maharaj Ji's hospital. Ashram is the place we all need to come from but some people can't be there because they are married. This is the kind of stuff that got carved into my young mind and made me stay, his reassurance that he knew how fucked up we were and that he was going to help us made us stay in the cult as long as some of us did, 25 yrs for me...how sick the bastard can be? A person listening to this type of remarks ends up feeling in some point that something is wrong with him/her even if it isn't true. He lied to the premies, he still does. I believe Lard contributed to the idea that I shouldn't trust myself, my mind, and that created an unnecesary inner conflict. Lots of confusion could have been avoided and for that, I HATE THE RAT! I feel better now saying it again. Lard's cult is generated on fear of the unknown. His is a cult that do not empower people but makes them feel week and small. Why would I want to be a premie? Yuck!

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:46:08 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: SB MAD Subject: How sickening!! yes yes yes!!! Message:

I get more genuine love and acceptance from the people (or rather the exes) on this site than I EVER got from M and his nihilistic world.How utterly foul and vile are those words of the living Lord. And to think I truley believed he was Jesus come again. How dare he have fucked with my head like that. How mind-bogglingly arrogant. It beggers belief. Christ! (I could go on in this vein for some considerable time!!!)

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 20:18:13 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Joe et al Subject: one of the best posts and threads ever Message:

this is such powerful evidence of Rawat's hypocrisy. I like Michael's idea of making it a permanent ex premie org fixture. The personal responses of so many too, are some of the most powerful I have ever read. Disculta's post especially got to me, and so did many others. It is good we have eachother, because I don't think anyone who wasn't there and who didn't take this LOTU trip to heart could understand how powerfully shaming a tirade like this was to a 'devotee'. What gaul, of Rawat and his current PWK's, to deny that it ever happened. Of course. Shameless denial which adds to the pain is what they are best at.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:22:15 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Joe Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76 Message:

Joe, Thanks for taking the time to post this stuff. Picking up on a point made below by Patrick (formerly Anon), can someone create a three-part FAQ section with the following content, for example: Topic #1 - The Ashrams a) What Maharaji said about the ashrams in Atlantic City, December, 1976: .... b) What Élan Vital now says the purpose of the ashrams were: ... c) Quote showing how Maharaji avoids responsibility by suggesting that all the concepts about the ashrams, were cause by confused mahatmas and instructors, not him. Topic # 2 - Drugs and Alcohol a) What Maharaji said about the use of drugs and alcohol in Atlantic City, December, 1976: ... b) What Élan Vital now says about Maharaji's contribution to society through his efforts to eliminate the use of drugs among his followers: ... c) Quotes by me and others who were around Maharaji at the time about his drug use and alcoholism. Topic # 3 - Etc., Etc. Michael

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 23:43:40 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Well, Michael.... Message:

I nominate you as the perfect person to write that. I think your idea is great, and could be expanded to include any number of issues/subjects. I'm going to make copies of the tape, and I'd be happy to send you one. Also, a couple of people have offered to help transcribe it, and that might be the easiest to work with. By the way, on the tape, Joe Nader (I always liked Joe), said that on the previous Sunday 'Michael' called and said Maharaji would do the program in Atlantic City. Was that you?

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 13:35:36 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Joe Subject: Well, Joe.... Message:

First, it could very well be me who called Joe Natter although I don't remember doing so. Second, I could write the piece I suggested but I would be hard pressed to get to it anytime soon. I haven't even started on the paper I promised last week. Lucky for me, Jean-Michel came to the rescue and offered to do it. I am willing to work with J-M and help out anyway I can. Michael

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 10:58:40 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: I'd be glad to put it online Message:

when the editing will be done .... We could also do the same sort of page for some of the outrageous denials EV is doing on his websites.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 12:09:37 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Jean-Michel Subject: Thanks, JM (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:27:33 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: I second Michael's idea for EPO(good work Joe)nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 15:53:58 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Joe Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76 Message:

This stuff about marriage that he said is news to me. Didn't he actually perform and officiate at some marriage ceremonies for some premies who were close to him? Why would he willingly participate in a function that he says was generated by mind and would fuck up some of his closest premies if that's what he believed? I remember his riffs about meeting a beautiful woman and wanting to marry 'it' (audience laughs...?), and then he goes on to relate how the beautiful woman looks in the morning with green mask on her face, so where is the beauty then? Under the green stuff and in her heart, Mr. Rawat, that's where! Then he said once that marriage is a 'tall order', as if to say that it's a worthy thing to do, but it's hard and takes alot of work. And if marriage is really just a desire of the mind, then how else are premie kids supposed to come into manifestation and carry on? Is he the only one in the group fit to procreate or something? At a series of ashram-candidate meetings in the late 70's and early 80's in Miami, I distinctly remember going to two separate meetings where the exact opposite things were said. At one meeting, it was said (by Charananand) that the ashram life is a veil of tears, and to be a householder with Knowledge was the best and most rewarding way to go....then I heard the exact opposite said about married life at an ashram meeting, and that ashram life was the best way to go. Step right up, ladies and gentlemen, we have something for everybody, right this way... What I can't believe (but must because it's true) is that I sat there and let all these contradictions go down right in front of me without saying a fucking word. They had a grip on my head from all the satsang about not doubting the superior power, that his satsang was not just the words so don't let little things like words bother you, etc etc etc. And there was this one whitebread ivy league, button down, smarmy faced little shit who was a new instructor who sat there and spewed shit like we'd come back as worms and get eaten by ants if we revealed blah blah blah. I wonder where he is now, but not really. Marriage is a very hard thing to do right in this present state of the world. Of the 50% of marriages that stay together, about 40% of them are merely arrangements based on money, convenience, kids, or some other circumstance. Only about 5% of all marriages are the 'happily ever after' variety. I still believe that in its purest state, marriage is a sacrament and God's way of keeping human families going on the planet and love cultivated in the human race. Sandy

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:35:04 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Fast forward to late '90's Message:

I really liked your post Sandy, especially pointing out the contradictions. Reading this thread and thinking about marriage, relationships and friends I remembered: A few years ago I was at a very select get together with him, of course by invitation only. The invitation was by way of a very personal phone call. I have had quite a few of these invitations and they are always the same. You are told that maharaji has invited YOU to this thing. It is only for you, between you and your master, not anybody else, don't tell anyone else about it and you are given the place, time and checklist of do's and don'ts. Your response is a I'm so lucky, so SPECIAL hushed thankyou. Your busting to tell someone! If you happen to be living with another premie, and they are standing near you when you get that phone call, when you hang up, they naturally ask you what's up as they can't help notice your enthusiasm you go very serious and with a secret, sly half smile say oh nothing. It's even more bizarre if after you hang up, the phone rings again and it is for them, and the whole trip goes into motion once more. Sometimes you still don't say anything to each other! In this climate of supreme elitism, husbands don't tell wives, wives don't tell husbands. They go to bed side by side, perhaps share all kinds of intimacies, but not that. The one invited will be smiling mysteriously and feeling supremely sorry for their other half, the one not invited will know something's going on and feel hurt and left out, but can't quite put their finger on it. Sometimes they don't find out until it's all over. If they both are invited, when they discover this fact, they will think theirs' is truly a match made in heaven, they must be really in sync. Parents don't tell children and vice versa. Friends don't tell other friends. But somehow word leaks out, the result is SOME ARE FEELING REALLY GOOD, OTHERS REALLY BAD. It's so funny, because maharaji doesn't make those invitation lists up, like you are told. Apart from a few familiars, he probably doesn't even know or care who is there. When you get there, you see your spouse, child or friend there, and smile at each other knowingly .....gee we are so lucky! I wanted to tell you but.......! There is much crying and gnashing of teeth for those who know about it through the leak, who were not invited. They are wondering what they have done wrong. Believe me it can get quite fierce. At the one I was thinking of, I was not sitting with everyone else. I was doing something for him, serving him. Through the whole thing, I was standing behind him, and could see the faces of everyone (when I could tear my eyes away from him) staring adoringly at him and trying to get his attention, a very common past time in this type of situation (look at me, look at me, please look at me). He expressed his displeasure about something that someone who was there did, plus started making fun of them. This person was sitting beside his wife. All the premies (PWKs) then joined in at making fun of him. With much glee on their faces they started shouting the rudest, meanest, horrible things to him, even his wife. Each time someone said something, they would immediately look at maharaji, hoping to get a response from him. The victim kept looking at m, saying outrageous things himself, as he was wont to do, that would also get m's attention. I was glad I was not part of the pack, I probably would have liked (but not daring) to say something to get his attention if I was. Sigh. After this I remember having this niggly thought, so this is what it has become, this grabbing, hurtful thing at anyone's expense so I will get some recognition, a glance, a stern look, please God something, from m. The purpose of k seemed to be to get on a list. It is surely a four letter word. Reminds me in some respects of that movie 'Almost Famous' C

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:38:20 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Connie Subject: Fast forward to late '90's Message:

What a chilling story, Connie. The church-ladies of the new non-cult church of Elan Vital gave me the full time creeps with their conspiracies, secret meetings and the dog eat dog world of the grace race. That's why I left two months ago. I feel sorry that I criticized them mercilessly for a whole year before I left but it was hard to make myself believe that the rot started at the top and they were mostly sheep being led by an irresponsible, immoral and incompetent shepherd.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:58:21 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Yes Pat, it is chilling Message:

but I don't think there is much difference between those chilling tales of the '70's and now, except that everyone is a lot older and 'wiser'. The absolute loss of humanity I abhor had its beginnings and was operating back then, as was the hypocrisy. That is what I wanted to illustrate. By looking at myself, I keep seeing, and I know sounding like a broken record, the UNDERLYING ATTITUDE has always been exactly the same regardless of what any so called Elan Vitalees say today. It keeps hitting me again and again. I know that attitude is not confined to just me from talking to people. And as I have said before, you just have to look at the actions of the people, that says heaps. What I find so sad is that nothing disturbing is seen about that type of behaviour, it is normal. It is apparent to me also from the premies who post here. I recognize it because I was such a part of it, though funny, as I never felt exactly in, always knowing and sometimes experiencing it could change in an instant to being out. That is why I think it so fierce. Nobody feels secure or safe, all relationships are conditional to a certain extent, and everyone's main goal is to make sure they stay in at any cost. I am struggling with my own part in it, beginning to see that I was not just a victim, but also played perpetrator at times, it does not sit easy with me. So true what Babs said in her journey, 'for all those who I hurt, I am sorry, for all those who hurt me, I forgive you', though that last part is a bit hard for me, especially regarding Maharaji. I am shying away from even thinking about him. I know he is totally responsible, and has a lot to answer for, that is all I can say about how I feel about him at the moment. I have already experienced one volcano bursting inside me, very bumpy eruption, and I fear the volcano that is maharaji, when it blows is going to be a big one. I was going to keep this short..... Thanks for your responses. C

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 09:37:31 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Connie Subject: Connie, I've been trying to get your attention Message:

and I'm so glad that you finally responded to me. Two things leapt out of your post: You said: ''Nobody feels secure or safe, all relationships are conditional to a certain extent, and everyone's main goal is to make sure they stay in at any cost.'' And none of them seem to think that that is in some way so antithetical to ordinary human life and love and warmth. The coldness and self-centeredness is so... well, chilling and creepy. You also said: ''So true what Babs said in her journey, 'for all those who I hurt, I am sorry, for all those who hurt me, I forgive you', though that last part is a bit hard for me, especially regarding Maharaji.'' I too did my fair share of things for which I am ashamed and I am forgiving myself for that. I have already forgiven those who trespassed against me including Rev Rawat. It helped me a lot to just let my anger at him out and say terrible things about him and get it if my chest and then see that he too is mortal and fallible. As he once said; ''Even the rich have tears.''

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 14:43:52 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: thanks Pat, I'm feeling my way shyly (nt) Message:

blush

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 20:18:33 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com To: Connie Subject: Connie, don't be too shy Message:

to email if you ever want to. It helped me to get to know the people behind the names. It also helps that there happen to be five of us regulars here who all knew each other 20 years ago here in San Francisco - Joe, Joy, Francesca, Charles and me. There are also three non-posting exes that we know and a bunch of other exes in the Bay Area whom we are just getting to know. SF has always been a hotbed of nonconformism and anti-authoritarianism. I wish you well in your journey to intellectual independence.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:54:49 (GMT) From: Sean Email: seang2@earthlink.net To: Sandy Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76 Message:

The lies and destructive crap we swallowed because we were so convinced of our own lack of worth astounds me now. When I left Denver in'76 I went into a different kind of Hell where I had to confront my own burgeoning insanity and uselessness that had been ever so carefully and lovingly nursed by the googoo from hell. It took flirting with true madness, as well as getting chunks of flesh cut off of me at a Sundance, just to start me back on the road to feeling again. God! What a waste! It pisses me off so much I'd like to drag him out in the woods and whack him (don't worry, just expressing my anger).

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 15:25:05 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Joe Subject: Amazing that he could say that about marriage Message:

When he himself got married in 1974. Maybe the bloom was off the rose or something. (Or else he was really in his mind when he got married.) Amazing that he could say this about the ashrams, when he closed them seven years later. BTW, I remember this heavy insistence on moving into the ashram. It really messed up some friends of mine. I left the cult shortly after this meeting, and I didn't realize that M had closed the ashrams until I found Forum I. This, along with the revelations about M's drinking, was probably the thing that freaked me out the most upon finding the ex-premie site, because many of the people I knew who were pressured to move into the ashram DID see it as a lifetime commitment. The stuff about Chicago is just plain weird - especially since he was about to relocate to Miami.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:51:56 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie To: Katie, Joe and all Subject: Supreme Dissonance Message:

I read Joe's post early this morning when I got up. I've read it about 3 more times since. I started to write posts in response but I got angry and upset. It amazes me that this information has the affects me so deeply, at this late date. Katie, my immediate reaction was the exact same as yours. Yeah, Captain Rawat, were you in your mind when you got married? Are you now? That thought had to have run through the minds of many premies as they sat and listened to him talk. But no one had the courage (I wouldn't have been able to do it either) to stand up and ask him about it. Asking such a question would've reduced one's standing in their community to ashes. How could one dare utter such a thought --- totally in your mind sister! Secondly, the analogy to sticking a pipe bomb in one's mouth was shocking. What he was saying is that if we got married, or followed our own heart's desire about our future, and did not stay in or go to the ashram, we were committing suicide! That's it, plain and simple. Thirdly, as we have been insisting here, Captain Rawat's own words now expose that the ashrams were for lifetime devotion (read cash cows) to him. Life in the ashram was so we could be focused on him, period. I cannot imagine lining up to kiss the guy's feet after he squelched everyone's souls so much. This tape is a very, very important part of the organizational history. It demonstrates falsehoods contained in the EV FAQ's -- information EV is giving the public which it intends that people rely upon in making decisions about the organization. This demonstrates the fraudulent nature of some of the representations on the website. Those words they posted will come back to haunt them, in the very near future I suspect. Last of all, Katie, aren't we lucky we left when we did? I got out just a few months before this event, when I started law school. It was the dissonance between what Captain Rawat was saying and what he was doing that really got me, especially the money grab which had been going on at this same time. Joe, I hope you get this whole thing transcribed so it can be posted in full here. They're cringing down in Malibu reading this stuff. Yeah, read it and weep, Captain Rawat. My investigative journey is going quite well, thank you. Marianne

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 12:27:33 (GMT) From: Patrick (formerly Anon) Email: None To: Joe Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76 Message:

Outrageous. This is exactly the sort of stuff that current aspirants and premies should be shown that Maharaji said and did. A few choice quotes from that Atlantic City meeting plus some examples of the hypocrisy of it all, and no one will be able to deny that Maharaji should rightly apologise in no uncertain terms for putting on us all like he did. I am personally very offended if Elan Vital are suggesting that the ashrams were not intended to be a lifelong committment - that is a most heinous revisisionist lie if it is so. I certainly was in no doubt about this when I, as a trembling teenager, was being groomed for an ashramic fate by Maharaji and his henchmen instructors or 'initiators 'as they were then called. Notorious instructor David Smith told me in a private interview, as I was being dispatched off to a distant ashram, that I should be prepared to 'NEVER see my parents again' etc. This was Maharaji's line too. The whole trip was totally unkind, inhuman, and to make matters worse -Maharaji having stolen our lives ( or as he would have it -taken us away fom our 'attachments') did nothing to replace the void with anything remotely commesurate or better. I experienced this 'opportunity to surrender my life' and lose the 'attachments of this world' in reality, as a totally traumatising process of having my attachments unceremoniously ripped away and the gradual dimming of hope. He clearly thought that we should, (like his Indian peasant devotees no doubt did) be grateful for any 'shelter' from the world. The trouble is, just as HE DID and DOES - I too fundamentally , LIKED THE WORLD that he would lock me away from forever! So the whole enforced 'giving up the world forever' order was in practice total torture, and contrary to what he promised, was utterly soul destroying . His paln was to put us in this extermination camp, where we would be boiled alive and reduced from complex and interesting, human individuals to blobs of unhappy nothings... like his little slaves, with no future , no will of our own, no say, no nothing. We might as well have been dead. .. and Oh yes I forget -we had The Knowledge -that's all you need in life isn't it ? Well clearly he needs a few other things like... A yacht with helipad - a 41 million dollar jet - properties arould the world -retinues of servants -money for supporting his mistresses, educating his kids, buying them BMW's and Mercs -money for the BEST THIS WORLD CAN OFFER for him and his family and their families etc. - BTW Elan Vital have been sniffing around Miami asking how this info about the yacht was leaked to this site -I have it on good authority that this is a major area that they are keen to keep out of public knowledge. 'Privacy' for Maharaji =excuse to cover embarassing extravagances. Anyway, Maharaji's juvenile attempts to impose DLM's Indian model on us more sophisticated westerners was an unmitigated disaster of huge proportions, and one which should justly still haunt him. It is outrageous in the extreme that he should be permitted to live and continue in his super-rich lifestyle, without paying in some way for the damage he did to us. I am one of those unfortunate youg folks who actually DID give up everything and submit to the Maharaji lifetime programme of self-annihiliation, and I can tell you that it was the most dehumanising, dreadful, unfulling fate imaginable. I wept day and night - I grieved for a better life , although never daring to question Maharaji's 'Agya' (which means literally 'order'' ) Most ashram premies spent their entire time pathetically longing to be somewhere else - this of course meant endlessly pining to be 'closer' to Maharaji. A sad site, especially with the female Gopi premies who blubbed endlessly and tiresomely. If, on rare occasion, the opportunity to 'get close' did come, it often precipitated disillusionment or deeper denial and hypocrisy. We were like members of a sheiks harem all preoccupied and obsessing about the Master to the exclusion of any human exchange or kindness or intelligent interaction with each other; each desperate to be chosen and picked out for a better life. So unreal, so demeaning and abusive of him to put us there. The result of his 'No Doubt' order was to produce a clique of intellectually unstimulated morons consumed with pettiness and the pusuit of Maharaji's grandiose agendas. All this reminds me so much of the Pied Piper story which horrified me as a kid - The idea that innocent young children like me could be lured away from their happy lives and their loved ones, by the hypnotic call of an evil character, who first appeared kindly, and then entombed FOREVER in a dark cave, was deeply scary. That this childhood nightmare should become reality was a trauma that I am still overcoming aged 44. Thank any real God up there, that Maharaji's plans to imprison us LIFELONG were relatively short-lived. I dread to think what sort of mindless, faceless, unhappy clones he might have spawned had he succeeded in the long-term with his irresponsible 'experiment.' The more I am reminded of the injustice and evil that Maharaji wrought upon so many youthful, well-intended people, and the suffering that he caused -the more I am convinced that it is paramount for us -who were there - to broadcast the facts -to tell the story and to shame those who continue to paint this cult as something that has now something worthwhile to offer humanity. In my opinion, even if the meditation were a a worthy thing to promote, the so-called teacher (and to my mind WE who DID IT, apparently unlike Maharaji himself, are better qualified to teach it) ..as I was saying.. even if it was a worthy cause -the teacher has so many skeletons in his cupboard, so many responsiblities to take that have been ignored (he's so rich and powerful now that he believes he can avoid ever dealing with this stuff) , that no way should he be trusted or taken on his word today. Finally... I would like to see short video clips of this meeting in QuickTime format or whatever, on the web site. Certainly a transcript is essential. There should definitely be a section for these sorts of clips that would be irrefutable proof of Maharaji's fear-mongering attempt to totally highjack the lives of his followers. Incidently a good way I have found of putting movies on the web, is to record them onto a digital camcorder like Sony's excellent PC100 that allows analogue VHS input, then play them back digitally, via Firewire, onto my computer - edit the clips in a software video editing program like Apple's 'Final Cut Pro' or 'Adobe Premiere' and save them at a smaller size using a good web-friendly compression codec - like the Sorenson one. Since connection speeds are going to increase over time it would seem quite feasible that many people will be able to easily view these videos online shortly - I have the new, utterly marvelous ADSL connection to the Net which basically means that a 3 megabyte movie takes a few seconds to download - This site loads almost instantaneously - you can bet that a huge number of people will have this kind of connection as it becomes widespread. My brother in law works for British Telecom and he tells me that the labour government in the UK are subsidising this technology enormously so as to get fast access to the Internet into homes and schools asap

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 23:09:22 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: Nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: Great / important post, Patrick ** BEST ** Message:

please keep somewhere precious, J-M.

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:43:46 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Nigel Subject: I will, Thanks !! (nt) Message:

mm

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:06:35 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: Thanks Patrick Message:

I completely concur with your sentiments, and as I have said before, I think the ashram and Maharaji's failure to address it, will be the major thorn in his side for the rest of his life. What he did to us ensures that there are a relatively large groups of people who feel personally victimized by Maharaji. Now, that group is growing, because more of the ex-ashramites are becoming ex-premies, and more are looking at the damage all that actually caused. By the way, the tap is an AUDIO tape only. I'm going to makes copies of it for others to listen to and somehow we need to get it transcribed for the website. Although, if there are capabilities available dor audio access on the site, that would be great, because the fawning prostrations and 'mea culpas' of the premies asking questions is particularly distrubing, and comes through more in the tone than in the actual words. Plus, Maharji is amazingly trite and dismissive. He is kind of laughing about all this.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:18:13 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76, thats one helluva post, Message:

Thanks Patrick, my heart bleeds with you, I went there too, I'm out of posting energy at the moment! having lost so much, for some reason. I wrote a long post above about the subtle damage that is done when you think you are a part of the 'best thing this world has to offer' How alienating this is..how it inevitably cuts you off and separates you from your fellow human beings..Because,...no matter how equal you feel, that's what knowledge shows you ..right? Thuguru tells you that you are now saved, different, superior, separate from the rest of humanity, special in some way, So, I have spent the last 30 years of my life, believing , on and off, over the years, that I had the best WAY, so I became lazy and complacent, and disinterested in all the richness and diversity that is all around me..and that is the damage that has been done..and I have been a willing partner in this, which pisses me off, no end....I could go on, but I won't because I might lose it!!! In every sense... Thanks for putting all that into words, Love Kelly

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:42:41 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: Thanks for taking the time to get that all out n/t Message:

raw rat rat

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:37:58 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joe Subject: Thank you, Joe, for reminding us Message:

and for taking the trouble to listen to all that drivel from a teenage spoilt brat. It reminds me why I did not move into the ahsram. I had that stuff shoved down my throat on the two occassions that I applied to enter the ahsram and it freaked me out and I declined both times at the last minute. I think the big difference between you an dme and why you went in and I stayed out was because I am so much older than you. You were not much older than the urug whereas I was already an old skeptical fag at the time. I am just so sorry you had to go throught that. I feel quite tearful thinking about what you dear sweet innocent soul had to go through. At least I had only had my heartbbroken by stary sailors whereas you had yours smashed into smithereens by a stupid jumped up quasi-holy semi-divine demi-god of a fucking little Kirshna drag queen with the greed of a pieve of trailer trash from the boonies and a mahatma circus to beat the band. Sorry, buddy. I wish I had now said what I thpought of him then but the bjakti juju got me too.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:36:14 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: spoilt brat Message:

I talked with a friend (never a premie) who knows a former premie who babysat for Rawat, and that's the way they described him, a spoilt brat.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:51:35 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: My Personal Holocaust Message:

I'm furious! Anyone seen the Dark Crystal?You know, that muppet movie about the forces of dark and light. The bad guys (skeksies) have the people imprisoned as slaves and they have a machine to suck out their life energy. The scene where they do that, and the innocent little podlings turn grey reminds me of MJ's ashram machine. Joe, reading these excerpts from that Atlantic City conference has totally activated me, more than anything I have read on the Forum.This was my personal holocaust. After quite joyfully getting into MJ's 'spiritual' path, and even living fairly joyfully in ashrams in Spain and South America, where love between people was permitted,I was transferred to Denver, and life became hell. It was the time of workshops, but these were not joyous workshops. They were very hierarchically run. In fact, my main impression of them in retrospect was seeing all these self-important honchos strutting their rank. Anyway, the slavery of IHQ life got to me very quickly. Also, MJ, who had sent me to South America, and whom i had lovingly served for many years there, never even said hello to me. He knew me - I had been his translator and he had personally aaaaagyaed me to go there. Bur he never once acknowledged me, although he walked past my desk all the time. It was really bizarre. I knew I wasn't supposed to expect anything, and that I should be humble and self-effacing, but I had been living the life of a devotee whose guru loves them. I had been giving satsang to this effect in South America. I was really into it - travelled with a Ramayana and Shrimad Bhagavatam, which were full of stories of the bliss of devotion, which Maharaji himself had talked about. But everything in my body and nervous system was now telling me that HE DIDN'T LOVE ME or care about me in the slightest. This was when I started getting sick. I 'm not saying it was all psychosomatic - it wasn't. I discovered years later that I had had giardia and other parasites from S. Am all along, plus the stress of the workload at IHQ was hell for my back. I was in constant pain, but more than this, I was in constant emotional pain. Goddess is great, and all of a sudden a brother was transferred into my ashram. We looked at each other and spent hours trying to remember where we had met, but had never been in the same place at the same time, this life. It was one of those things, you know. MJ and the honchos closed the ashrams and encouraged us to leave and stop being a liability. We got married right around the time that MJ reversed direction, and said all the crap Joe has quoted above. I remember the stick of dynamite thing. He was basically saying you have blown it, you have made the big mistake, but you should stay together. Where does that leave a person? Purgatory? I was really enjoying the love and affection of my marriage (which lasted for 9 years). Yet I felt a terrible pull to move back in the ashram. My heart, body and entire emotional self told me I wanted to stay married, that I needed the nurturance to survive, actually. And on the other side, Maharaji was saying that I needed to move back in the shram to survive spiritually. I was torn asunder. This created a rift in my psyche that was so intense that my body just gave out under the stress of it. I got one condition which opened the door to others, which set up all sorts of cascading negative cycles in my body. This was 20 years ago, and I am still dealing with the physical effects of this, despite years of therapy and all kinds of straight and alternate medical therapies. And all kinds of integrative stuff to bring my mind, body and spirit back together. But this wound was literally like having been in a concentration camp, for my sensitive system. I am absolutely healing it, but it is really important for me to have the validation that something really, really cruel and shitty happened to me. One of the main problems has been that the shock of Maharaji's turnaround and emergence as a cruel persecutor - when I thought he was my loving Lord - left my psyche kind of scattered and lost in its ability to stay in my body. Reading these words that so hurt me is actually healing for me, because it accesses these unknown places that went into a kind of 'spin.' I'm not into flogging any hate horses, or 'holding onto the past.' Actually, telling the truth about the past is, for me, the best way to really let go of it, not in some self-righteous 'I've forgiven and moved on' bullshit, but in a real way. This stuff is not all at the mental level, and if you let go of it mentally before it has been validated on a cellular level, you can just continue the split that is the core problem. This core split is something that I believe I came into this life to heal. I don't blame it on Maharaji. I don't agree to ever again, should I reincarnate or whatever, learn lessons via experiences of cruelty. I am leaving that paradigm. When I think about Maharaji, I don't have very strong feelings, because it's hard to think of him as a real person. I don't even know if he thinks of himself as a real person. When I think of his asinine and sociopathic behaviors, however, I feel a furious energy that I am using to free myself from any remaining traces of anything that doesn't nurture and love my whole self and body. Joe, your comments that he was a bit 'cute' really hit home - this seductive quality is why I completely stay away, even all these years later. I was imprinted like a newborn gosling. Love Disculta

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 00:24:01 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Don't worry, he ain't cute no more Message:

Joe, your comments that he was a bit 'cute' really hit home - this seductive quality is why I completely stay away, even all these years later. I was imprinted like a newborn gosling. If you watch Maharaji in a video now, he has lost every bit of the 'cuteness' he had when he was younger. First of all, he hasn't aged well at all. His face is all puffy, especially his eyes, probably from all the alcohol he has consumed. His eyes, literally, are just slits. I like Katie described him as an aging, Asian businessman. Actually he looks a lot like Sun Myung Moon. And he no longer has that cute, giggly, teenage voice, either. He just yells, and then speaks softly and that child-like nature is just gone. So, I doubt you would fee seduced by him if you saw him now.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:01:12 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Disculta Subject: To Disculta:My Personal Holocaust Message:

All power to your elbow. I absolutely relate to what you are saying.If you feel the need anytime for more therapy for your body and soul have you tried a properly qualified homeopath? I am going to one at the mo, and it is doing wonders for healing my horrendous psychic split at a cellular level.(a split which has gone much deeper than I used to think).Love and empathic thoughts from moldy warp

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:45:50 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: To Moldy Message:

Yes, I've tried homeopathy - classical and other kinds, many times over the last 20 years. Many things have worked, but homeopathy has been a complete wash, unfortunately. Thanks for the moldy love, though, feels good! Love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:09:57 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Disculta Subject: To Disculta Message:

thanks for your love. Particularly well timed as I am having a minor freak-out as it appears some people think I am a still a premie. (see my thread below 'Narrow Escape!) Perhaps my sense of humour is too obscure...or maybe they are being tongue in cheek and my sense of humour is lacking. Hard to tell -that's the trouble with forums I guess Love m w

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:11:38 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: To Moldy Message:

I just read your thread below and can see why you're minorly freaked out. Having read your previous posts, I didn't think you were doing a U-turn back to Hell. It just goes to show how communication is so much more than just the words, and consists largely of visual cues (I guess that's where emoticons come in handy--but even they're limited). I've had to engage in a few explain-a-thons myself when I've inadvertently stepped on someone's toes or offended someone's sensibilities through less than clear lingo. Hope you're feeling better.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:59:47 (GMT) From: Moldy Warp Email: None To: Monmot Subject: To Monmot Message:

Thanks . Too true about problems of communicating only in words. I am feeling better thanks. Despite misunderstandings, I love this forum as its somewhere we can be ourselves warts and all and not have to aspire to some crap concept of perfection let alone all that yukky brother and sister crap that someone referred to in recent thread.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:39:44 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Disculta Subject: My Personal Holocaust, I'm speechless! Message:

it's late, and I'm tired, but I must tell you that your post has really touched me..I'll talk to you soon, love Kelly

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 20:13:19 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Disculta, your Personal Holocaust Message:

Reading your post made me realize how deeply involved you were and I think many of your later health problems did indeed arise from being betrayed, heartbroken and abused by this ignorant piece of Hindu trailer-trash from hardwar. I know you will be healed and become whole but I would like to see the urug held accountable for the damage that he did to you and thousands of others whom he treated as hamsters in a lab - the lab of his own stupidity and selfishness. HE MUST APOLOGISE OR BE DAMNED FOR ALL ETERNITY!

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 18:59:03 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Relationships were a prostitution of divine love.. Message:

I guess I was on the cutting edge of bad taste and self-destruction myself by getting married in 1974, the year Maharaji got married (what I call the Summer of Love). My best friend at the time got married, and I got married a few months later, and both of us couples shared a house by the ocean. We all had been stalwart devotees in our community, aka workhorses of the highest order who started and ran 'divine' businesses. Our marriages were considered scandalous because we were becoming dreaded householders and because we stopped being slaves for God, although we continued to attend satsang and do service on nights and weekends. Not long after I was married, it was announced that Lou Schwartz was coming to town to give us 'special' satsang. Of course, the four of us attended, sitting together in the audience. Lou started out slow enough, basically berating the entire audience with how we were not doing enough for M to prove our devotion etc. He then ripped into the four of us with such stunning asperity, glaring directly at us, and going on about us drowning in the maya, telling that stupid story about going out for a glass of water, getting lost in the world, only to lose everything we possessed, and then crawling back to M, who *might* accept us back if we were humble enough...yada yada yada. I turned into human tundra at that moment and was so awash in shame, I thought I was drowning in the shame, not the maya. Talk about scarlet letters... 'What had I done?,' I asked myself. I tortured myself like a cruel and petty dictator for my worldly folly, ad nauseam. Whether we would have eventually divorced or not, regardless of the massive guilt/shame we both endured, it's difficult to say, but all that guilt/shame didn't help one iota. My husband became somewhat of a buzzkill, walking around doing nectar, and looking like one of the cranes which were visible from our living room window, but such beauty was now considered maya. We did eventually split up, and my husband became the head of security at DECA, until one day he left a note on the table of the premies he was staying with, and split, never to be seen again in the Land of Prem. Shaming is a powerful tool, and Maharaji used it freely and willingly. That is obvious from the excerpts Joe has posted (thank you, Joe and Ulf). His fear-mongering is so extreme that it should be considered and Olympic event (or would that be an 'Owimpic' event?). These excerpts have made me very angry. Who does he think he is to diminish and ridicule us in such a manner? God? Mr. Divine Hypocrite Made Flesh? That's more like it. I support Michael D's suggestion that EPO has a link to this information.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:39:50 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Monmot and Disculta Subject: To Monmot and Disculta Message:

What invaluable information from the point of view of folks in a relationship (which I was not)! I can see throught your eyes how the cult and the LOTA (not LOTU -- that little Indian pot that we used instead of toilet paper to wash our butts) screwed up your attempts at normal human relationships. I can also see that normal relationships for the rest of us were dead in the water before they started. What a killjoy. I think it was all about control. This picture is becoming too gross. Thanks for destroying some of the vestiges of denial I had left -- I thought I'd found them long ago. I don't know which was worse relationship or non. Monmot's description is chilling, and I do remember some of the inner torture the poor married devotees went through in the late 70s. Most of the marriages broke up and folks moved in ashrams. Now I know why. The ones who didn't break up were strong indeed. But as you have both so eloquently stated, strong but scarred.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:37:09 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Shattered truths and shattered illusions.... Message:

I just related about an inch of a ten mile uphill hike. There were all sorts of other complications, like one person being asked to come early to a festival to do service, while the other held down the fort etc. Weird stuff. But to be ignored by Maharaji, like Disculta was, and particularly when she knew him personally, must have been painful in the extreme. I still had fantasies about Maharaji, while Disculta was getting hers smashed. At that time, I think that that must have been incredibly shattering, no matter how beneficial it turned out to be in retrospect. Take care M

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 20:50:36 (GMT) From: Babs Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com To: Monmot Subject: A Woman Scorned Message:

I didn't get married to Booth Dyess in 1974, but not for lack of trying. He was the Ashram Supervisor in Houston, and the whole community knew I was gaga over him. I wrote to Maharaj Ji asking permission for Booth and I to marry, but of course never received an answer. When Booth called me into the room where he was interviewing ashram residents one-on-one, and co-ercing us into signing our Permanent Vows, he told me not to be afraid to express my true feelings...so I lunged at him, grabbed his throat, and tried to strangle him. He was much taller and stronger than I was, so he just held me down on the floor with one hand like a puppy until I stopped heaving and sobbing, and was ready to sign the paper. As a part of the DUO outreach program, Booth and I visited inmates in prisons and mental hospitals and gave them satsang. The following is a letter written by Booth to a prisoner named Juan, which really hurt my feelings at the time and still pisses me off. (You can't really grok the depth of his hypocrisy unless you realize I was giving him blow jobs in the satsang hall every night after everybody else was asleep.) Letter from Booth to Juan, 9-19-74 Just lately, Barbara and I have been together a lot. What Guru Maharaj Ji has been showing us is that love is really the supreme thing. People use the word 'love' as if it were a very common thing. But really, once Guru Maharaj Ji lets you feel what it's really like, it's hard to fool yourself into accepting anything else. In fact, it's impossible to be really satisfied with anything but the grace of love, called devotion, for Guru Maharaj Ji. Everything, everyone, every experience and feeling comes from just this one source. When we are distracted for a moment from this source, we get caught up instead in the pleasures of our senses and thoughts. It is only Guru Maharaj Ji who can catch us when we start to fall into these temporary attachments. We get 'drunk' and thrown into the jail of our little day-to-day lives. He has so much compassion. He does not scold or punish us for our foolishness. He has given us the supreme thing, a love that can satisfy every desire and carry us beyond our finest imaginings. Still, sometimes we get caught up in emotions and desires so much less satisfying than this Knowledge. If we forget Him, still He does not forget us. This has always been my experience. This is one way I am sure He is our Lord. Because He is pure mercy, like a loving Father who always forgives His children for their foolishness. And you know, when He takes us back (when we turn our attention back to Him), we are then even more than before firmly bound to Him by the attraction of His love. In this way He makes even our foolishness into a grace to bring us always closer to His perfection. Juan, I feel like a child who has tried many times to run away, to disobey, to pretend I do not know how my life is directed. But I am so happy. He never leaves us or gives up on us. Everything we experience, whether it seems good or bad, is a gift to us bringing us into His truth and love.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 22:01:09 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Babs Subject: A Woman Scorned Message:

Wow. Amazing that you kept all that stuff and wrote journals. Maybe you should write a book about all this. It's almost too incredible not to be fiction. I don't know what on earth you saw in Booth. Maybe it was that he was an authority figure. Wasn't your relationship with him the reason you got sent to COLL? COLL was kind of an 'ashram reform school' for a bunch of people, and mahatmas, as I recall. I took over from Booth as community coordinator in Miami in 1979. Booth was so 'not into' being the CC there, that I just took over from him and never even talked to him about it. He went to the cult travel agency and the next time I saw him, he was picking up Joe Anctil's dry cleaning.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:36:04 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Babs Subject: Booth is/was an emotional cripple... Message:

I knew Booth and, in fact, attended his wedding. I think his wedding lasted longer than his marriage. Booth was in the ashram while he conducted his affair with a 'community' premie, who got pregnant. He married her, but left her within a week or two and moved back into the ashram and was transferred elsewhere, cutting off all contact with his wife and soon-to-be-born infant. There's a special place in hell for people like that. I can only hope he's changed.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:49:22 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Maybe He Was Just Programmed Message:

Programmed and brainwashed by being subjected to the above psychotic crap. Perhaps had he not been an ashram premie (or a premie at all) he would have behaved in a somewhat more responsible manner. So I wouldn't blame him completely.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:30:39 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Joy Subject: I agree.... Message:

I guess that's why said he 'is/was' an emotional cripple. To be fair, I wouldn't want to be judged now for past times either. I doubt any of us would. :-) I certainly believe (and know) a person can change, thank god. Thanks M

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 16:50:27 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Monmot Subject: I was an emotional cripple, too Message:

I had completely forgotten about it until I read Disculta's and then Bab's post but I went through the same thing. I was out of the 'shram when Atlantic City happened and happily catching up on love from the second chakra. A good friend came back with his mind blown and so I was sure I'd missed someting incredible - then followed that dizzying set of programs. I chose not to move back into the ashram and was cut some slack because I did full time service. I was living with my girlfriend (now wife) but still getting to go to those post-festival 'conferences'. Somehow, I thought I was special and immune from the rant-fests and actually pitied and envied the truly devout. Pity because of the pressure on them and envy because they were more devoted than I. I just remembered today though, at some point I told my girlfiend that I wanted to move our beds apart (we had 2 of those Denver ashram paltform beds) and stop having sex. I needed space to see if I was going to move back into the ashcan and follow the initiator's path. She cried herself to sleep every night. So I wasn't as immune from those conferences as I thought. Today I will talk with her about it and tell her I'm sorry. The idea that you can cut yourself off from human feelings and urges and biological drives is absolutely rediculous. It was like being neutered so I can relate to emotional cripple part - the goal back then was to become emotionally dead!

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 17:04:25 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Postie Subject: Me too...most of us were back then Message:

Postie: I've been thinking about this also, because I realized I was being unduly harsh about Booth, and realized I was being, if not unfair, at least unforgiving. I saw up close some of the carnage he left behind, but then again, I imagine most of us left some sort of snail track back then, myself included. You're dead on that the goal was to become emotionally dead--one that I achieved with great success. Many years of therapy were required to defrost the tundra that I had become. I am sure your wife will really appreciate your honesty and compassion, and that you'll be able to let go one more little cult chunk of memory. Take care M

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 21:55:35 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Me too...most of us were back then Message:

Well, I don't think you were too hard on Booth, and, besides, isn't he still an EV honcho of some sort? If so, fair game, I think. I do agree, though, that Maharaji is ultimately responsible for most of this, by the crap he indoctrinated into us. I'm sure Booth was put in this position of his new wife and kid on the one hand, and 'the ultimate' and the chance to serve the living God on the other. But still, as with all of the awful stuff people did in the cult, there is still some personal responsibility. I mean, some people were awful, and others weren't, and we all got a lot of the same programming. Like David Smith, who was about the worst Nazi of the bunch. Very few people did the awful things he did. And he also seemed to enjoy seeing suffering so much, which was particularly disgusting. No, there were some wonderful people who were premies, who, despite all the nonsense, kept their humanity.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:54:14 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Babs Subject: Thanks for outing Booth ... Message:

... because in doing so, you had to tell some real personal stuff. I was told by a friend who used to be in the SF community that he had an affair her while he was in the Miami ashram (she was not, but was a very devoted premie in the community), and the lack of human response she got from him over what she was going through, and his denial about his cocknitive dissonance was quite hurtful to her. And of course, in the face of what he was representing himself to in the community, dishonest indeed. I have no reason to 'out' her, because I haven't seen her in years. Babs, I'm starting to get the feeling he left a trail of broken heart ...

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:23:29 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Babs Subject: good story Message:

And I couldn't figure it out, those ashram guys would come on so strong and then run like hell if I got interested. It must have been so weird to actually live in the ashram and have all that tension and bs around. Maybe he was one of those guys who think blow jobs aren't sex? Sounds familiar :)

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:22:36 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Babs Subject: Hell hath no fury....you crack me up, Babs Message:

To think that we took these insane, insincere, self-righteous drips seriously. This is priceless: ''When Booth called me into the room where he was interviewing ashram residents one-on-one, and co-ercing us into signing our Permanent Vows, he told me not to be afraid to express my true feelings...so I lunged at him, grabbed his throat, and tried to strangle him.'' And a jewel of uncompromising TRUTH: ''You can't really grok the depth of his hypocrisy unless you realize I was giving him blow jobs in the satsang hall every night after everybody else was asleep.'' I wonder who gets the medal for giving more blowjobs to these hypocritical sociopaths: you, me or Pauline Premie?

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:49:32 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: None To: all Subject: How many DLM honchos did you blow? Pauline? Message:

How many hum jobs did you have to give housefathers, CCs and other DLM honchos while they did so-hum? I know they were lined up outside of Pauline Premie's car parked outside the ashram every night after satsang. (Just kidding for those of you with irony deficiency or humor bypasses syndrome.)

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 01:30:24 (GMT) From: Bongo Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Cleaning up the mess. Message:

I think the first concept that has to be hosed out, before even the most basic sanitization can begin is the notion of the supernatural status of the master. This one stinks, is sticky, and gets everywhere while you are trying to mop up something else. Once it is flushed away, you can begin, only begin, on questions like -so what is this 'knowlege' anyway? Why only begin? My reasons why you can only realisticly expect to make a begining on this question are as follows: If you've been practising K. for a while, the mental apparatus for answering the question is by defenition not present. The question reads, but remains meaningless. A practising premie could not seriously formulate such a question. To re-discover the absent mental faculty needed for an answer, one has to back up to a point the other side of the knowlege receiving threshold. On the knowlege side of the threshold it will not be found. Get back to your moment of 'resolving to aspire' for K, and you can find the first traces of your lost brain. There you find a state of mind that was genuinely active, and it was your own. Unfortunately it is neglected, damaged, and undernourished. Not only that, it is fundamentally flawed because it was exactly this mind-set that said yes to K, and hurled you into oblivion. It aint no use trusting this piece of cognitional framework to answer the what is knowlege question. So that leaves you three stages away from the question, and still no secure mental equipment to get an answer with. Here I think one is up against large psycho-cultural tendencies-ie the 'times we live in', consciousness of cultures and issues of world view. We are all included in these. Personally I believe that most of us didn't really suspect we had a 'world view' when we approached K, and so didn't realise when Maharaj replaced it with another. Whats to be done? Obviously there's no formula, but I sense a firm fulcrum forming. I am relying on the pleasure of thinking, clarity of thought, pursuit of intuition, freedom, pleasure of self-transformation, the beauty of other people, respect for the mysteries, magic of language, mirth and other things. The question what is k? serves as one of many catalysts in all these so far. The reason I expound on the obstacles to answering a simple question, is to help allay the frustration that the expectation of a quick answer can bring. I was tempted to rush to completion, abandon the question altogether or doubt myself on it. The answer 'k. is nothing', I found unacceptable. Love Bongo

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 13:22:22 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The fulcrum Message:

Whats to be done? Obviously there's no formula, but I sense a firm fulcrum forming. Hi Bongo, Aristotle said 'Give me a lever long enough, and a secure fulcrum, and I will move the earth.' When I first came across this forum, among all the confusion and chaos and interpersonal bullshit, I could see only one fulcrum, only one firm, secure and indisputable centre from which to proceed. That fulcrum was and is rational enquiry - and its foremost, most ruthless and uncompromising practioner here is the somewhat maligned Jim Heller. It is often argued that Jim's mode of engagement can alienate, and I own that yes, he makes me wince on occasion. A more circumspect style could prove more effective on occasion. But, even when I wince and deprecate his style, he hits the target so accurately, so often, it's downright spooky. And more often, his straignforward demolitions make me laugh. His readiness to go to the wire in defence of the principles of rational enquiry is exemplary, and, I suggest, vital. Yes, it would be nicer if people here were nicer. But what demand on a particular style of communication can be made by the agents of delusion, or on their behalf? Should we be happier to be fobbed off with a smile; or is it better to be warned off the hucksters with a scowl? The lies and confusion spread by the cult and its supporters are there for a reason. To confuse; to enslave; to cover crimes; to perpetrate dishonest abuse; and to perpetuate the scam. Of course, some of these defenders of the fraud are honestly deluded, just as many here were themselves sincere in their beliefs when they were in the cult. But no, it is not safe to assume that all premies are nice but deluded. Some may be willing and cynical agents of the scam. And in any case, being too nice to apologists of abuse has (it seems to me) its own dangers. One is to imply that fucking up people's heads and lives is OK, or at least, that it's not worth getting upset about. It is not OK to fuck with people's heads. Righteous anger towards perpetrators of delusion makes sense. Premies are victims, by and large. But a refusal to use reason and logic when debating m's scene mark a person as not only a victim, but also a victimiser. The methods of clear sighted reason are the fulcrum on which any method, any lever against the cult must be based. There are doubtless many such effective levers, some of which may be incomprehensible to individual members of the home team. But we can all understand the importance of a fixed point of reason in supplying the fulcrum on which all such levers ultimately rely. Reason and rational enquiry - the truth - is what sets people free of soul delusion and political oppression alike. JohnT - never a premie

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:51:12 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: JohnT Subject: It was ARCHIMEDES (sorry) -NT- Message:

Archimedes, one of the greatest engineers ever.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:13:41 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: JohnT Subject: If Yosemite Jim did not exist we would have Message:

have to invent him or one of the forum nice guys would have have to shed his Jekyll to play Hyde. Most of us have guessed that Jim is not a caricature of the uncompromising trial lawyer relentlessly cross-questioning and does have a sense of humor and is obviously concerned and caring. Sometimes I wish he would show more of the other sides to his character but it is after all only a forum. If we all were constantly polite and wishing each other peace and love brother this forum would be boring and much less honest. Pat, who always sympathised with Yosemite Sam in his battle against the deceitful, self-centered and insouciant Bugs Bunny.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 07:40:43 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Bongo Subject: Cleaning up the mess. Message:

Dear Bongo, That was a great post. My experience was, thankfully, not as deeply connected. I kept a lot of what many of you gave away. I saw my friends from before the cult and my family, we all did. I gave my pay check but did that freely. When I left they came after me and I just laughed at them. I really couldn't believe they thought they could come 'fetch' me. I have that lack of control over my existance experience with my Catholic mother, she took control of my life but I ended up seeing through it so I wasn't about to give control of my life away again. I know a lot of people did suffer a lot more then I did That is what I've learned since finding this forum a few years ago now. Love, Robyn

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 05:02:40 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Bongo Subject: Cleaning up the mess. Message:

Great post. I saw this story on 'Dateline' last night about a man who got involved with a creepy Christian cult that claimed to be receiving direct revelations from God. The man (I will call him Jeff) finally left the cult in disgust. Jeff now has full custody of his 5 kids because the cult members went to jail because of a 'divine revelation' that one of the cult babies be starved to death. (really sick stuff) Jeff was the one who got the police to investigate because he had evidence that something horrific had happened to the poor baby. Listening to Jeff tell this story I thought of what a wonderful strong person he seemed to be. When he got involved in the cult he was lonely, had no friends etc, kind of a 'loser'. Now he's a well put together guy with a strong sense of purpose. I kind of feel this way about going through the cult experience. I found out the really screwed up way to live and kind of worked my way backward, analyzing like you did above, 'at what point did I decide to abandon my mind and myself? At what point did my life and my thoughts not become my own?' You have to go through this process and sort of reclaim your life. It's a really long way around the block to go to find out how NOT to live, isn't it? But I really feel like that subtle point of giving myself away won't happen again because of it. And there are so many traps like that. There are so many people who fall claim to cults because of their own innocence. It really isn't fair.

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 19:27:41 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Letter from Steve Hassan to White House.... Message:

regarding funding of faith-based groups who may, in fact, be dangrous groups: February 23, 2001 John J. DiIulio Jr. Office of Faith-Based & Community Initiatives The White House Washington, DC 20502 Dear Mr DiIulio, I am deeply interested in the faith-based initiative that your office is undertaking. One of your most serious challenges will be to distinguish authentic faith-based organizations from fraudulent and destructive ones. The task is serious because you and your colleagues will be called upon to account for the spending of tax-payers' money. Support of questionable groups could inspire enormous controversy. Already my local paper, the Boston Globe, has run several stories supporting destructive groups such as Scientology and the Moonies. Even more serious, a decision to fund a destructive group could do enormous damage to those who seek the services of such organizations. Faith is a powerful tool for behavioral change and many of these organizations use this to their own advantage. Such groups often recruit members through such 'helping initiatives.' I know this first hand. I was recruited into the Moonies in 1974 through such a front group. During my two and half years of slavish devotion to the 'Messiah Moon' I personally recruited many people through a variety of front groups promising to help alleviate the suffering of humanity. I have a long list of Moonie fronts on my web site. Since leaving the group in 1976, I have devoted my life to fighting the threat of destructive groups as an author and activist, as well as a mental health counselor. My mission has been to help families get their loved ones out of destructive groups and also to get the word out. I have appeared on hundreds of TV and radio programs--Nightline, 60 Minutes etc.. My message? Mind control and social influence techniques exist and can be used unethically by totalitarian figures and institutions to undermine free will. People who are in great need or are in transition are the most vulnerable to destructive cult rcruitment. It is precisely those who seek help from faith-based initiatives that are at greatest risk of being recruited into such groups. Again, I speak as a former recruiter of such individuals. The good news is that it is possible to identify a destructive group based on its behaviors, and not beliefs. I have developed a model of destructive mind control. It can be found online at my web site at http://www.freedomofmind.com/resource/srmind.htm. It is a practical model that can be applied to any relationship or organization, not just one with a religious orientation. I would like to emphasize that it is not a group's beliefs that are the criteria for deciding whether or not a group is destructive but, instead, its practices. I am enclosing copies of my two books and a few related materials. I would also like to request a meeting with you to more fully express my concerns and to offer my expertise. I believe that I have much to offer you and your colleagues. In fact, I know many other respected academic and clinical researchers who have been working on the subject of destructive group practices. Among them are Dr. Robert Jay Lifton, Dr. Margaret Singer, Dr. Louis Jolyon West and Dr. Philip Zimbardo, the President Elect of the American Psychological Association. The military as well as intelligence agencies are well aware of mind control techniques and practices used by such groups. Your office should be able to draw upon vast resources to protect and preserve religious freedom as well as civil liberty for all citizens. I look forward to the possibility of assisting you. Sincerely, Steven Hassan

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:02:20 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Monmot Subject: when do we draft ours, to second his???...and Message:

I think every one on the forum who feels the same sentiment ought to sign it.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 05:28:12 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: janet Subject: excellent idea..I second it... Message:

I think this would be a good project for the epo site to take on and send to the white house....perhaps in conjunction with a cult-watch group... There is so much material already gathered here that would make an excellent case, chronicling the rise of the cult, and the current attempt at 'de-cultifying' the group...

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:41:29 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: la-ex Subject: excellent idea..we all write it...who edits? Message:

I'm game.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:31:50 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Pat,from previous experience I think... Message:

Pat-having been part of one letter before, I think the easiest way to do this is for one person to be the main letter writer. The main letter writer posts the ongoing work in progress on the site, and people can post suggestions, on or off line. The final copy can be posted for last minute revisions, before being sent... I think this is far easier than trying to have a 'committee' try and do it all... We've got lots of talent here, anyone want to 'plug in' and do some 'service'...?

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:03:20 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: la-ex Subject: agree Message:

This could be easier than our previous group work though. In fact, Steve Hassan might have some suggestions of what we can to that would be helpful. I sent an email to the White House myself when I heard about it. But I do think a letter we all signed could be good. I think they are on a slippery slope with the faith based initiative.

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 19:13:02 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com To: Everyone Subject: Psychedelics brought me to guru and drew me away Message:

In 1968 my room-mate, Trevor, gave me some LSD. I took it and felt sleepy. I lay down and Trevor left. As I lay on my bed with my eyes closed. The back of my eyelids, as usual, were dark but around the edges of that darkness I saw light flickering. It was soft like candlelight but the light of many candles glowing golden white, growing brighter and more beautiful till i wept with joy and awe at the beauty as i entered infinite emptiness and peace, conscious of nothing but my consciousness and the exquisite sound of dancing molecules of mirth. I grew cold and shivered and woke and lazily stretched and opened my eyes and burst out laughing because I had never before seen anything quite as funny in my life. My whole body tingled with funniness. Everything that I thought or saw or did tickled me pink. This world, the room, my body was the funniest cartoon that I had ever seen. I got up and did some ballet across the floor and ended up rolling on the floor with laughter. (Yes us old fags of the beatnik generation did do ballet when we felt very gay. I felt very gay that day but I blame LSD for making me heterosexual for the next five years to the point where I even married and had a kid.) Anyway, Trevor came home to out attic bedsitter in Notting Hill gate and also took acid. We sat in the cold room with its sloped roof and a sky-light window covered with snow and I watched it being transformed into a glowing cave of jewels - not real jewels; it's just that the ordinary old wardrobe suddenly seemed to made of wood that once been alive growing in a lush damp forest and the threadbare carpet indeed still had some color and color was a miracle, as was shape, size, depth, life, each breath, each heartbeat, each fart and flutter of eyelid on moist eye. I then became aware that it was Trevor's mood, which was more romantic and passionate than my cartoon ecstasy, that had cast a spell of beauty into the ratty little room. He was the most beautiful man I have ever known. I didn't have to take acid to find it hard to take my eyes off of him. He had very white skin with a touch of pink in his cheeks with long black hair. I have never known such perfect features on anyone since. He looked like what I had imagined Lord Byron would look like when I was 14 and read the biography of the poet and before I had seen a pic of him. I sat looking into Trevor's eyes until I no longer knew where I ended and he began. The next trip I took was with Trevor's friend, Jill. Trevor was about 18 and I was 21. Jill was quite a few years older, a single mom, college student with Trevor. Jill had been around a couple of blocks already and was one of the last beatniks left. Think big hair, black clothes, black eyes, lots of hashish and West Indian boyfriends. We took some acid and Jill put her baby to bed. Then we went outside to sit in the stairwell outside her bedsitter in Kilburn and smoked a hash joint. The acid came on and we watched the comings and goings of the other tenants in the building. We ended up laughing so much that we went back inside her room and watched the sun come up. The rain stopped and the bare branches of the brown and black trees were covered in trembling drops of water each filled with a glistening jewel of a prism. The baby woke up and she put him on the floor. He crawled into a shaft of sunlight which streamed through the coppery veil of Jill's hair as she slowly brushed it in the sunlit window and smiled invitingly at me, melt with me, merge with me - I am the goddess of love. This was heaven and the baby in the sunlight on the floor was a shining godlet in all his innocent glory. People have asked me if I saw god on acid. The lazy answer to that question is ''yes.'' A more honest answer is: ''Using a primitive concept such as GOD to describe what I experienced on acid is lazy and unoriginal but I do not yet have the words to describe what I saw. I haven't got a clue. When you're in heaven who the hell needs a god. It's the last thing on your mind. Jill, the baby crawling towards me, they were gods more than enough for me. I could have worshipped them but instead I just enjoyed them and everything seemed so good, just perfect. Life was a miracle and I was part of that. The intelligence in my mind was part of the loving intelligence which had manifested everything. There was no need to imagine an invisible creator or a human deity. Ordinary human beings were enough and were sufficient. Love is all that mattered.'' I took a lot of acid over the next four years and lived in several communes and group marriages and studied eastern religions. I stopped taking drugs and did hatha yoga and kriya yoga. I figured that if a drug could induce heaven in a human body then there must be something to the eastern concepts of nirvana, samadhi, satori etc. I set out to find the clear light of reality which I had seen. The psychedelic revolution began to unravel and then along came the divine light in the form of a cute kid from India. And it is precisely psychedelics that took me out of Maharajism. No I haven't done drugs in years. What I mean by that is that I was doing fine with my deemocratic vision of heaven on earth before I got a guru and started worrying about shit like serving a master and the Knowledge of ''god'' and the ultimate truth or whether i was being a good premie or a bad one who enjoyed thinking, reading and writing and fucking too much or whether I really would rot like a truck of vegetables because I thought the urug was trite and inane etc etc etc. I was quite contented not to have any sound-bite explanations for what I had seen since my doors of perception had been opened by LSD to new possibilities of being and feeling but the Hindu hyperbole took me in, the ''feelings'' induced in me by Maharaji enthralled me. And then for several years, when I went back to South Africa, I experienced satsang with the Indian premies as a psychedelic heaven of peace and love on earth akin to any visions of beauty I had glimpsed with either Trevor or Jill. They danced gharbas and sang bhajans and we all feasted like royalty on Indian food and all racial differences melted away in the light of love. Coming to California and being nearer if not IN the belly of the beast cured me of that just as moving into a monastery cured me of Catholicism and it has been a last intellectually induced exit from then on. I think I'll stick to the religion of feeling absolutely fabulous and fuck the rest. Thanks.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 05:08:09 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Psychedelics brought me to guru and drew me away Message:

Pat: (Yes us old fags of the beatnik generation did do ballet when we felt very gay. I felt very gay that day but I blame LSD for making me heterosexual for the next five years to the point where I even married and had a kid.) You know, I've heard this about LSD therapy. It seems to work the other way too. Very disengenuous drug. I had a couple of experiences in the cult that rivaled those in the 60s, and I can't say that either were beneficial. I mean, maybe they were... Yeah, I guess they were. But they sure left some big holes in my head. But I liked baseball too, and would probably pass up some pretty good drugs to watch a good game... even when I was a hippydippy beatnik. (Actually, Kerouac was before my time.) So the same thing probably got the better of me with the cult too. I just got distracted by delicious problems. I spent two years, after leaving the cult, reading and re-reading Bucky Fuller's Synergetics volumes on geometry. *Geometry* for God's sake! I can still while away an hour or two just thinking about 'intersticial spaces' and the 'constant zenith projection.' Way better than politics, really. And when sex is over, it's over... --Scott

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 09:22:18 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Maths better than politics but not tantric sex Message:

You said: ''I can still while away an hour or two just thinking about 'intersticial spaces' and the 'constant zenith projection.' Way better than politics, really. And when sex is over, it's over...'' You are obviously either not getting laid regularly or are not much into sensation. I do understand the pleasures of pure thought but sensual delights are also part of life. Did you ever see my post suggesting a re-enactment of the Symposium with you being the cool Platonic philosopher while I played the roll of the Socratian sensualist?

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 02:56:18 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Maths better than politics but not tantric sex Message:

Pat: Did you ever see my post suggesting a re-enactment of the Symposium with you being the cool Platonic philosopher while I played the roll of the Socratian sensualist? I didn't see that post, no. What's a Socratian sensualist? I thought Plato was Socrates' student. Anyway, 'better than' depends on when you make the assessment--shortly after or shortly before. --Scott

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 09:53:06 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Scott T, I just finished reading your other posts Message:

I was going to repost my original suggestion when my computer crashed. When I got back I read your other posts about being tired of talking about the Bratguru and thinking of leaving FV so I guess it's not worth it anymore.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:13:36 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Psychedelics brought me to guru and drew me away Message:

What a fabulous story, you are a gifted writer Pat, I hope that you keep a journal and publish some of your works someday. As I read your story I was transported back that surreal time and place of the 60's in Haight Ashbury where I experienced many cosmic awakenings through the assortment of psychedelics that sparked my quest for the pursuit of cosmic consiousness as I called it then. The best trip that I ever took was one when I forgot that I had taken acid, I fell asleep and woke up stoned , really awake, There was no apprehension, no paranioa, just total complete peace, oneness and beauty and I was totaly connected to it all. I have to say that as a result of my psycedelic dabbling that I embarked on a life quest to discover the meaning and purpose of my existence. Which after trying every religion that came my way for a while, much chanting and fasting etc. somehow lead me to the gooberaji... I remember from an early discourse, Charanand mentioned how keenly Maharaji had been following the hippie movement and the drug culture of the 60 generation in America. It comes as no surprise that given my drug altered state of mind I and many like myself were an easy mark for the Guru. The Guru's appearance on the western scene was quite calculated and timed to pick up where the drugs left off. By the early 70's I was looking for other options, the drugs had gotten wierd and many of my friends did not survive, insanity, death and incarceration had taken it's toll. So I embraced this refreshing option of following this boy god, bringing peace to the world, knowing the absolute truth, and being a disciple of the living lord. Drugs were no longer an option and have not been for years, that has been a good thing. The bad thing for me was that I developed this dependancy and identity around all of this guru dogma. I invested so much in this concept of devotion that I alienated family and friends and any other influences in life that did not agree with my newfound illusion. I remember telling my own Mother that if it came down to the Guru and her I would take the Guru. I cannot do enough today for her to make up for the heartbreak that I know I must have created through the years of my twisted reality and involvement in the cult. I am grateful that she is still alive and I can make amends to her, but this example is how deep the sickness ran in me. Kind of like a Junkie drug addict, who would forsake everything near and dear to him for his drug of choice. This is where is get off today, no drugs, no guru, no religion, just me and my own life and in possesion of this rich and wonderful freedom of having let all of the aforementioned go.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 05:52:10 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Brain, no drugs, no guru, no religion, just me and Message:

my own life. Thanks. Your post sort of said what I would have said if I had continued the story. By 71 the hippie thing was over. My trips got bad. Tragedies became the norm. My group marriage got weird. Half of the commune left to live in the ashram and I was left with no choice. Rock bottom. Mata Ji said about LSD: ''God had to manifest in the form of a drug in the west because the western mind only believes in material things.''

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 19:54:42 (GMT) From: Roy Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Psychedelics brought me to guru and drew me away Message:

Pat, Reading this gave me that quesey gut feeling you get about 45 minutes from ingestion when you start to come on.. your reminiscence is the closest contact high I've had for a while. (authorities promised me flashbacks- I'm bitterly disappointed) I became a theist after using Tim Leary's 'Psychedlic book of the Dead'- to great success - I saw and felt the clearlight. This epiphany lent credence to any organization with a name such as divine light mission etc. go figure. I was ripe to move into the next level, that of guru worship. I had to hand over my personal preferences to this juvenile organization, and leader. Having just come out the otherside, and seeing the real light of day I feel the whole journey to be a natural progression. ie. getting a guru, leads one to lose a guru. I'm sure as hell glad this happened now, and not later... I too practice heartfelt hedonism.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:58:46 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Roy Subject: Another acid head for the Sat Guru Message:

Pat C - absolutely fabulous story and thread. I knew you wouldn't stay away for long. As Kelly says below, we love good stories. I think these experiences are part of our shared and personal mythology and we should celebrate them. I had tripped before on mushrooms and acid but this time I was given a very strong dose of LSD-25 that was reported to be from Mr Ousley (sp?) himself. I fell asleep in the tent in a pine forest on an island off the US Gulf coast. I decided to smoke a joint with one of my trip mates and that got the pine bark turning into Escher-like lizzards crawling up and down the tree. See you in 8 hours - wow! At one point pretty far into it, I wandered off by myself - sort of a vision quest. I was sitting atop a big sand dune with my sceptre of sea oats facing the Gulf of Mexico. I was lord of the realm - Poseidon or Neptune. As far out as I could see, the waves were rolling in - perfectly rythmic and in tune with everything. The clouds were waves too, and the sunlight was waves. As the ocean waves came to shore, the pattern they left in the sand was wave-like and the sea oats were waving in the same pattern and the dunes and meeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! Well that pretty much was the vision I was seeking. Then I heard a buzzing and noticed a flying bug way off in the distance and it got louder and closer and eventually I saw it was a bug - a VW dune buggy. It stopped, somebody got out looked around and took off the other way - totally hilarious. I took it as crazy, unfocused, unpurposeful mind that just buzzes around like a bug. Meanwhile I was connected to the cosmos, man!!!!! Similar to Roy, once I saw the totallity that acid revealed, I knew I could go no further on my own. So it was time for the next step - a guru. I have theory on religion that applies here. I think that religion begins where the imagination ends. What cannot be imagined, what is beyond understanding, gets explained by religion. So psychedelics were the catalyst that blew open the doors to perception but there was no way for the mind to process all that transcendental input so where to turn for clarity - God himself. And voila, SatGuru has come. Bow legged trees, sack of rude doves, Haharaji yeah!!!

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:18:29 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Postie Subject: Postie, I just knew you were an acid head Message:

I was hoping you would out in you two cents. And thanks for it. Soemof the best trips I ever had were on the beach. The wind blowing the sand along and then scattering my flesh and bones to the four corners as I laughed with joy to feel so free.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:06:01 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Pat C, what do you mean by . . . Message:

'I was hoping you would out in you two cents.' I read it twelve times and can't decipher it.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:45:06 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Postie Subject: Typo, Postie Message:

'I was hoping you would out in you two cents.' Should be; ''I was hoping you would PUT in your two cents.'' Sorry to throw a koan at you.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 05:09:40 (GMT) From: Toastie Postie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: 'Acid is as acid does' - Forrest Gump Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 20:03:54 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Roy Subject: Psychedelic experience - Tibetan Book of the Dead Message:

The first time I ever hada trip without taking acid was reading Leary's ''Psychedelic experience according to the Tibetan Book of the Dead'' or whatever it was called. That non-drug trip made me realize that it could be done without drugs and I turned to yoga and then the guru came and stole our democratic revolution of peace and love and replaced it with his retro-feudalistic, primitive Hindu master/servant bullshit.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 03:50:13 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Psychedelic experience - Tibetan Book of the Dead Message:

Par I must agree with you as far as psychedelics being th motivation that made me reason that it must be possible to reach that state by discipline and practice without resorting to the chemicals. I went from LSD from 1970 to 1971, to TM for a year in 1972-1973, and wasnt happy with the progress i was making with TM. I found them to be in 1972 about like EV is right now: cold, heartless, cryptic, uninterested in me as a person or a member, way too obsessed with the certainty that the organization was more important than what any person was experiencing, and they too were smug about believing that they were going to achieve world domination, and get their methods into every echelon of society, and control the reign of consciousness. hence i left them in 1973 and shopped around for another discipline, and encountered the premies in the spring of that year. given the experience i had in my K session, i had good reason to believe i had found what i wanted. it was a major reason i stayed so many years, despite the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune i endured at the hands and tongues of the premies. i forgave volumes, for the sake of knowing what i had seen inside me. I used to think it was proof of the divinity guiding all of us, that when i sat in satsang, the speaker seemed to know in a preternatural way exactly what to say to speak to my deepest inmost thoughts that i shared with no one, save God and myself. Looking back, i now hate that. I think it wasn't so much divinity as the kind of 'say anything to get elected' ethos that some politicians, and countless salesmen have, which lets them sense what the unspoken currents of feeling, thought, sympathy and belief that their targets are having, to which they play shamelessly and with calculation. maybe meditation takes the speaker into our collective subconscious and with that collective mental conversation laid open, the speaker can toss out remarks seemingly miraculous for their uncanny appropriateness to the listener's own thoughts. To the uamiliar, this abiity surely seems proof that MaharajJi Really Knows Me. for me, over decades of study, once i came to comprehend the subtle bodies, and the designated planes of existence, ie, the emotional body, the mental body, the etheric body, and their corresponding realms of exchange, i was no longer wowed when a person spoke my thoughts aloud or answered unspoken questions i was holding. therefore, in retrospect, i view what we were told at the time we came to maharaji and DLM as nothing more than opportunistic salesmanship, using the added tool of access to the collective subconscious by way of the mental plane, thus making an adept parlor trick seem like miraculously intimate familiarity. the actual substance of what was said to us was unimportant, so long as it wiped out our doubts and hesitations and convinced us to embrace the product and the premise[ an anagram for premies, notice.] i would say the proof in this statement is borne out by the observation that in later years those who were approaching or being wooed were promised completely different things, appealing to what was in their contemporary subconscious. so called 'Knowledge Lite' was the sell for that market. and no one was troubled by inconsistency with earlier doctrines or sales manuals or substance. the only objective was to get those recruits to committ. not much different from the competitive sales contests that are held in corporations between rival offices, with a vacation in hawaii or the virgin islands to the salesperson who aces out everyone else.... the books you refer to did not cross my path, so there we differ. even once i did read a translation of the tibetan book of the dead, i did not understand it until years later. interesting side note re: psychedelics vs meditation: 20 years after my last acid trip and receiving K, i dropped acid again with some 20 year olds to revisit my old hauts and see if anything had changed in the two decades since i last tried it. as the acid was coming on at its strongest, i wondered which was more powerful, acid or meditation. so i sat down and went into meditation while i was peaking--and imagine my surprise when i stopped the trip cold. i tested it several times. i could turn it on and off like a switch. meditation was definitely stronger. ok. that was nice to know. but i wanted to trip, dammit! so i let go of the techniques and let the trip come back, and had a really fascinating night with my young friends, with the odd security of knowing that if something should come up, whereby i might need to get instantly sober and function, i could do it on command. for what its worth. the longer i think about it, the more i am becoming convinced that maharaji has only one aim to all of this: subjugation and avarice. i don't think he cares now or ever did care how he gets people sucked in, so long as it succeeds , and the money keeps multiplying and coming to him. like the most ambitious, disingenuous politicians, he'll say anything to get elected. he'll tell you what you want to hear, so long as you keep coming back and forking it over. am i bitter? like mango pickle, baby... like mango pickle

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 07:29:48 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: janet Subject: Psychedelic experience - Hey I love Mango Pickle, Message:

which can be quite Psychedelic to the tongue and taste.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 06:01:02 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: janet Subject: janet, my bitter little mango pickle Message:

I was just thinking today that a real guru would have given us Knowledge and guided us correctly and let us go and told us to go out and spread the good news. But no he was a greedy little control freak making sure that Rawat family business was kept going. He eventually stopped satsang which I loved and then in 99 fired the 400 mahatmas then he started the propagation packages and finally silenced his lambs. Now all there is is his voice uttering his utter nonsense. The last video I watched he even said that we should propagate even if we have not realized Knowledge because ''there is the POSSIBILITY of Knowledge.'' He does not want anyone ever to realize and break free of him.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 02:57:01 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Watch out for the Fox - Headed one with the.. Message:

....shaving knife.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 03:04:57 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: Bin, I would love to know what that means Message:

I guess I'm just a burnt out old acid head but I don't understand.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 03:59:33 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: It 's the only recollection I have from the Message:

Tibetan book , which I read 30yrs ago. One of the images. It doesn't mean anything , apart from the fact that I remembered it.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 07:48:32 (GMT) From: Babs Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com To: Bin Liner Subject: From Acid to Tibet via DLM... Message:

...not exactly a short cut! In 1969, I was reading Leary and Alpert and Hesse and 'Varieties of Religious Experience,' having already been exposed to Kierkegaard and Teilhard deChardin and even D.T. Suzuki in my Catholic high school. So I took acid to see God. Yeah, I know, that's what everybody says. Then, in 1972, I was backpacking from Berkeley to India when I ran into some premies who told me that Knowledge was better than acid because it was a natural high and you never had to come down. And they told me I would definitely see God. So I received Knowledge. Then, in 1998, I was allowed to 'take refuge' with a Tibetan Buddhist lineage based in Boulder, Colorado. I was given a Tibetan name, Nyingje Gamo, which means Joyful Compassionate Lady. I wrote in my journal, '...I am now officially a Buddhist. Otherwise, everything is pretty much the same.' I had decided to take refuge after determining that the Buddhists met my three basic requirements: 1. They would never ask for nor receive a dime of my money. Nothing, nada, zip. 2. Becoming a Buddhist would not change my life in any external way whatsoever. 3. I would not be required to attend any meetings, services, rituals or outreach potlucks. It also helped that Buddhists don't have to believe in God, since I can't say as how I exactly do anymore. Mostly I believe in trees. On Friday, November 20th, 1998, I wrote in my journal, 'It has been exactly twenty-five years since my dear friend Teresa died with the rest of Jim Jones' followers in a mass suicide in Guyana. I have felt guilty and afraid that my enthusiasm for my own guru may have inspired her to join the Peoples' Temple cult. I have felt grateful that the shock of their deaths inspired me to question and ultimately leave Divine Light Mission. It seems fitting that I took refuge on this anniversary... 'It has taken a long time to recover from the grief of losing such a passionate and idealistic friend. I lost my own passion and idealism... 'We both wanted so desperately to change the world. We saw injustice, and we were angry, but we didn't trust ourselves enough, back then, didn't have self-confidence and self-esteem. We gave our power away to men who didn't deserve our trust, and they abused the power we gave them. 'Now I take responsibility. No one can save the world for me. I have to do it myself... '..and if all I can do for the world is sit, and breathe in suffering, and breathe out love, then I swear, I vow, that I will continue this practice as long as I am breathing.' Well, so far I am keeping my promise. I sit for only ten minutes at a stretch, since I can't keep my attention on my breath for even that long. I consider a sitting to be successful if I don't wiggle around very much. I never have been very good at meditating. Was more of a service freak, really... But, like Ralphie says, 'If you don't think you can draw, lower your expectations.' And since I don't expect to see any sweeping social or political changes come about as a result of my small efforts, I don't get too discouraged.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:02:46 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Babs Subject: Go Babs go!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:14:52 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Babs Subject: Hi Babs , that old time mountainy man Message:

religion I never went for myself . Too reliant on the toasting fork mentality at the hoi-polloi level . Too reminiscent of Irish Catholicity . I guess there are many layers though , & if Buddhism suits you go for it . I really don't know what I believe anymore , but it's ok , many possibilities to explore. Sorry about your friend , there's nothing to say. Shit happens.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:46:40 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Babs Subject: Encore, Babs, I knew it Message:

when I first read your journey. You know. Tell it. A lot of us are listening. I wish you love.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:50:41 (GMT) From: Babs JOHNSON Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com To: Pat Conlon Subject: Coming out Message:

I love you too, Pat, but I'm a fag hag from way back. I used to hang with all the gay guys at COLL and never understood why they thought my name was so funny until I finally saw Pink Flamingos about twenty years later and nearly died of mortification... Actually, fessing up to the Tibet connection in front of all you exes was pretty scary. You'd think, after all we've been through, we'd take Groucho's advice and never join a club that would want us as members.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 07:09:32 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Babs JOHNSON Subject: Don't worry Babs, I outed myself ... Message:

... as studying Tibetan Buddhism myself quite a while ago. I got pretty deep into it for a few years. The forum has helped me during a period when I was backing away from the student-teacher relationship part of it though. Tonglen, the practice you described, does not get a practitioner into those types of problems. People seem to be very tolerant of the fact that I do not want to work closely with any of the teachers. I'd rather hear what they have to say and be grateful without groveling, hang with some like minded folks when it doesn't feel cultra-phobic, and practice in an atmosphere of freedom and low expectations. So far (and it's been 9 years) I've been allowed to do that. Whenever I get too involved with the group, though, I have to back out. I'm happier being a fringe element borderline bongo. I also do shamanic journey work, and I kind of chuckle at the idea that the Buddhists consider the Tibetan shamans to be such hethens! --F

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 20:37:15 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Babs JOHNSON Subject: Babs, I am really falling in love with you Message:

I knew when you told the story of hitching across country with 7 bucks in your pocket and flying to London that you were one helluva passionate woman but now you tell me that you're a fag hag. I should have known. But seriously, I am so glad you have got the guts to bare your soul here. I haven't even begun because it mught be too risque for most. I'm also glad you kept so much of your writings from the time. I burned mine in a fervor of surrender to the trailer-trash Hindu from Hardwar. Get an agent quick. Here's my check for your first book hot off the presses.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 07:14:28 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: BINGO, Pat -- threw out an entire BOX of poetry Message:

... and prose myself, right after I received K, not to mention got rid of all my artwork, my art notebooks, all my clothes containing personal embroidery, and most of my creative work that showed any individuality. The wierdest thing was that someone came into Divine Sales in SF named Francesca (she was a friend of Michael Nouri's) and started buying my stuff. We keep falling in each other's footsteps. You are now entering the twighlight zone. Love, F

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:17:05 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Pat Conlon and Babs Subject: Pat and Babs. You're both bloody good writers Message:

I firmly believe that one well told true story, is more powerful than a whole list of dry facts. You guys have the gift of story telling. Thanks for all you've told, and keep em coming! Love kelly

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:11:26 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Thanks, Kelly, you Irish Lotus Message:

You are Irish aren't you? I wonder if Babs is too. Us leprechauns know how to use the English language more playfully than its inventors and spin a good yarn.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 06:02:52 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: Bin, it was all that stuff that put me off Tibetan Message:

tantra but I sure enjoyed Leary's take on it and it gave me a boost towards a drugless pursuit of happiness.

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