Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:01:16 (GMT)
From: Feb 18, 2001 To: Feb 28, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


Sir Dave -:- Here's a nice email -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:53:22 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- nobody forces us... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:52:05 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- So is fraud a crime or not? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 00:16:40 (GMT)
__ __ Barry -:- Good one James!(nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:31:18 (GMT)
__ Barry -:- Help the weak ones! -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:16:45 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- not so nice... -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 15:43:25 (GMT)
__ __ CD -:- so -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 17:57:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Who are you to talk, Chris? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 00:41:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- Who -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 02:16:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- yeah, I do....nt -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 21:40:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Barry -:- How can you even..... -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:28:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- How -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 02:25:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Er, CD -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 13:29:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill--He aked about HIV -:- posts, yes there were some.CD is a forum 1 guy.nt -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 17:32:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- posts, yes -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 06:43:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- WHO ARE YOU TO LECTURE ABOUT CREDIBILITY? -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 16:25:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill--werent you here at -:- the first month of the forum?..nt -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 14:34:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- the first -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 20:45:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- so -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:07:02 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Is that Dominique Richard the wholistic healer? -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 16:37:21 (GMT)
__ bill---Dumb guys blithly -:- say 'so what?'--we are not THAT dumb...nt -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 15:24:51 (GMT)
__ george washington II -:- Here's a nice email -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 13:39:48 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Here's a nice email -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 13:53:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ george w. -:- Here's a nice email -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 14:03:29 (GMT)

Abi -:- children of the cult -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:02:43 (GMT)
__ cq -:- children of the cult -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:18:25 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- children of the cult -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 15:20:03 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- children of the cult -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:27:46 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- children of the cult -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:23:35 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- How to find the articles -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:06:25 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Abi! -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 13:08:45 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- will do -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:27:14 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Spread the word -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:28:41 (GMT)
__ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Axe weilding Goth and Giorgio Moroder?? -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 11:05:40 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Axe weilding Goth and Giorgio Moroder?? -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 11:45:44 (GMT)

Postie -:- Do you have questions for PWKWARTI ? -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 04:51:26 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- Seriously though, here's some questions for them. -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:06:56 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Powerful questions Disculta - thanks -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:47:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- A quick question -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 19:19:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- A quick answer - since 1972 -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 20:13:45 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- Here are some more questions for fence-sitters -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 17:50:19 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- Do you have questions for PWKWARTI ? very good -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 09:57:01 (GMT)
__ __ Roy -:- ARE YOU HAPPY? if not why not? you have K! nt -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:04:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- Right on Roy - good question (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 04:12:05 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Now that's what I call clarity, Gregg and Brian S -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 10:08:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Now that's what I call clarity, Gregg and Brian S -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 10:28:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Well, Brian Gregory Smith formerly known as PWK -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:10:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- PS I meant Postie and Brian S -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 10:10:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian G Smith -:- PS I meant Postie and Brian S thats funny Pat -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 10:15:14 (GMT)
__ janet -:- Do you PWKWARTI ?[ puke arti?] too rich by half! -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:35:44 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Cute translation but not my intention. (NT) -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:49:26 (GMT)

Loaf -:- search engine trouble... -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 22:37:38 (GMT)
__ salam -:- search engine trouble... -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 03:25:31 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- search engine trouble... -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 05:46:20 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- addition to my other post -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:08:26 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- search engine trouble... -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 00:15:48 (GMT)

salam -:- nothing better to do -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 21:02:58 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Hopefully The Kool-Aid Will Be Too Expensive (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 22:19:20 (GMT)

cq -:- Holy Breath? Holy Ghost? Holy here it is again - -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 19:47:20 (GMT)
__ G -:- Implied, hidden meanings galore -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 23:01:31 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- The strategy of vague illusions to God -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 20:19:38 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- It is double-talk - illusions and allusions both -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 20:37:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- It is double-talk - illusions and allusions both -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 21:56:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Western mind -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 22:33:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Western mind -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 23:42:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Western mind murdered it's only living God -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 10:00:28 (GMT)
__ bill--no rules, you can -:- abuse and use those in the illusion...nt -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 20:02:58 (GMT)

bill--Anyone live by Ira -:- Woods willing to talk to him? Rescue him?..nt -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 17:15:54 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- My Two Cents Worth On Ira -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 18:07:32 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- On Ira -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 06:45:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bobby -:- On Ira -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:25:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- On Bobby -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:29:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- On Bobby -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 00:25:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- good going Bobby -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:11:30 (GMT)
__ Babs -:- Sure, why not? -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 18:00:57 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Sure, why not? -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:35:53 (GMT)

Lily -:- Premies dont want to know -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 11:36:28 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- Premies dont want to know -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 16:40:30 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Premies dont want to know -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 16:54:29 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- Generalizations don't include everyone -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 16:05:46 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- To Sandy -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 16:51:19 (GMT)
__ Patrick (former;y Anon) -:- Premies dont want to know -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 15:35:32 (GMT)
__ __ Bongo -:- Dont want to know premies -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 21:41:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Palace of Peace 1974 -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 03:49:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- Palace of Peace 1974 -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:09:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Please answer this then, CD -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:18:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Please answer this then, CD -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 00:53:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE A LIAR, CHRIS, ......... -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 01:05:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- CD , fundamental message -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:44:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- diverse -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 11:23:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- diverse -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 18:56:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Good Luck, Pat! -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 21:00:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Good Luck, Pat Conlon! -:- Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 21:38:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- abuse and brainwashing perpetuated -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:32:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Me too -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 22:40:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Group high of all being focussed on one thing -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 03:53:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- PS Joe -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 04:34:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- PS Joe -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 20:47:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- PS Joe -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 20:58:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Idealism and out to save the world, precisely (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 23:20:00 (GMT)
__ Aussi Ji -:- Premies dont want to know -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:20:14 (GMT)
__ JTF -:- Premies dont want to know -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:02:48 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Very True -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 18:53:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Premies are Cult-A -Holics -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 07:25:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- We need 'Cult-methadone' -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:31:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Premies are Cult-A -Holics / how true it is -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 10:10:55 (GMT)

Connie -:- Dear Susan, from thread below..... -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 03:49:08 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Connie..... -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 00:02:37 (GMT)
__ __ Connie -:- Connie..... -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:49:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Okay.....just wondered (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:56:37 (GMT)
__ G -:- Great post -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 18:55:28 (GMT)
__ __ Connie -:- Great post -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:29:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks, Connie, ex-PWK -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 03:38:40 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- wow -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 16:32:56 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Excellent post, Connie -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 11:24:06 (GMT)
__ __ Connie -:- Excellent post, Connie -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 08:06:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Very important distinction! BEST OF FORUM? -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:26:11 (GMT)

Robyn -:- when there is no more m cult -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:54:21 (GMT)
__ G -:- when there is no more m cult -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 04:44:17 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- when there is no more m cult -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:20:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Reaching out -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 15:58:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Reaching out -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 20:32:29 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Recently read a book -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 02:37:49 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- yes there is that -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 03:34:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- M really is stupid -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 04:21:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- oh and in case I get misunderstood by someone -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 04:24:51 (GMT)

Pat Conlon -:- Poll: Meditation - who, how, why and what? -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 22:40:44 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Poll: Meditation - who, how, why and what? -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:32:03 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Demystifying Maharaj Jism 101 -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 09:05:06 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- I don't meditate now. -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 00:12:12 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Postie, gardening is my other favorite kriya -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 03:24:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- Both vegetables and ornamentals -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 03:58:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Katie / Conlon great book for meditative gardeners -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 16:58:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Satsang was stopped because it was democratic -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 08:57:35 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- PS That is Meditation sans Maharaj Jism -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:16:55 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- How does one attain Meekhood? -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 04:01:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- How does one attain Meekhood? Bill-grovel -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 09:08:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill--You answered it! -:- I cant believe it. well, mystery solved...nt -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 17:34:32 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Poll: Meditation - who, how, why and what? -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 00:29:50 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Gregg, hedonism, pleasure, tantric yoga -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 00:34:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Barry -:- Bye Pat. Your alright.(nt) -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:54:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lurker #27 -:- Bye Pat. Your alright. Ditto! (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 16:04:13 (GMT)

Ebay Alert -:- Life Magazine with photo of M...... -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 21:34:57 (GMT)
__ Tim Matheson -:- Ebay Alert: Lord Maharaji's cigarrette butts -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 15:28:03 (GMT)

Joy -:- Bad Side Effect of Forum V -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 17:40:33 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Hi Joy -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 17:27:20 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- I had an 'ex-premie' dream last night -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 23:21:08 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Great 'ex-premie' dream Disculta -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 23:35:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Er... let me eat snot and get back to you... nt -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 23:51:18 (GMT)
__ DREAMER -:- In one he was a clown -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:24:01 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- powerful archetype there, DREAMER -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 19:04:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- let me go check my dream dictionary-brb... -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 08:51:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- try this site for dream analysis.. -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:21:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- here's another one to try for dreams -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:30:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ romilar -:- let me go check my dream dictionary-brb... -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 14:32:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- take your haldol and go to group rocky..nt -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:32:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ george washington II -:- take your haldol and go to group rocky..nt -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 13:51:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Barry -:- Bye cq. take it easy.(nt) -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:55:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ dreamer -:- Good observation (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:48:40 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- he did program fear into us -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:11:46 (GMT)
__ Sigmund Postie -:- And vat vas he do-ink in your dreamz? -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:05:58 (GMT)
__ __ Joy -:- Nothing X-Rated, Postie -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 20:58:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Nothing X-Rated, Joy -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 21:13:11 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- My Field Trip -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 15:07:25 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Steve, I like your observations -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 04:32:34 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Thanks For The Encouragement -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 13:29:45 (GMT)
__ Catweasel -:- My Field Trip -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:30:26 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Knowing you're widely read Cat' -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 22:28:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Catweasel -:- Knowing you're widely read Cat' -:- Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:18:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Can you do anything but sneer, Cat? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:26:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Pot calling the Kettle ...Black -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 06:54:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- I think Anth has got a legitimate ? there Cat -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 02:43:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- I think Anth has got a legitimate ? there Cat -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 07:26:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Do you believe the blondes had a free choice? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 11:06:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cw -:- Do you believe the blondes had a free choice? -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:30:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- I'm deadly serious - Maharaji is a Rapist -:- Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 16:39:14 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- My Field Trip -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 02:04:12 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- My Field Trip II -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:01:04 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- I Asked People If They Were Going To Amaroo -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:07:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ JTF -:- I Asked People If They Were Going To Amaroo -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 21:32:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- M has put all his eggs in one basket - Amaroo -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 04:39:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- it may well be his 'Journey's end'.....snicker -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 09:40:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- janet-very insightful,it may come to pass..nt -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 15:29:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Something's Gotta Give -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 21:53:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Your description of the PWKs is on the nose -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 22:17:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Your description of the PWKs is on the nose -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 02:48:43 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:53:22 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Here's a nice email
Message:
I have been asked by Dominique to post this email he wrote to me. I don't agree with some of it. Here it is:

Hi my name his Dominique from NYC one of the gay guys who was and still is Claudia friend who now lives happily married with an artist in Santa Fee. Neither of us are dead nor even HIV positive as exposed in sex scandals. Although no longer a premie I still like to listen to his Satsang. I never took knowledge for what it was not.

I am actually the reason why Claudia left knowledge & Raja ji and I introduce him to my french friend at the time Nathalie Gabrielli who since still remain with Raja ji. I am Still very close to Claudia gorgeous and intelligent Children Navi and Ashi. Maharaji and his personal life is has fuck up if not more than any of us. So what?

So what what he does or doesn't do my happiness has never been dependent on M behavior. It depends on me to shut the fuck up. Maharaji has done nothing bad to me if anything he has enhance so much my growth that I can fly on my own. Maybe what should be mentioned on your site is another point of View not one that is for or against Maharaji. After all nobody forces us into anything we do not wish to be forced into.

As grown up's lets take responsibilities for our choices and not cry our anger out devoting so much time to a site who in a way makes a fool of himself by admitting being taken. I was never force into knowledge it never cost me any money. I no longer go to program. But I still practice meditation ongoingly. I read Guru Papers which I found to ba a psycho babble and just 'Authoritarian' (famous word in Guru Papers) in their views and sayings.

The point here I am writing to you all is that your info has to Navi being M daughter is not true the information on your site is not all accurate. But most importantly it does not matter. If people are too weak and gullible that is their problems not anyone else that is the way we learn through our mistakes..For that matter we should be so angry as to the Authoritarian ways of society who also don't give a shit about any of us. Maharaji never did anything to me detrimental nor to anyone. Just like our parents they were not always nice to us.

WE have all our moments of unconsciousness! With understanding comes compassion reacting never accomplish anything except for the purpose that I should never react like that again. How else do we learn. I hope you stop being so upset about M and move on to new experiences except the same old broken ones. BEST WISHES! Post my e-mail comments welcomed.

vze27j3z@mail.verizon.net



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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:52:05 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: nobody forces us...
Message:
Dear Dominique,

I was COERCED into thinking that Mr Rawat was the Lord of the Universe from a very young age by a corporation which relied on brainwashing techniques to extract money from my vulnerable parents. I and several other children were also FORCED by Jagdeo to satisfy his perverse sexual desires. This involved pinning us down to the floor with FORCE. The youngest of us was four years old.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 00:16:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: So is fraud a crime or not?
Message:
Interesting email. It'd be interesting to hear from Claudia as well, wouldn't it? But how many times must we hear this bullshit about 'no one pressured anyone to do anything'? How thoughtless and superficial. I'd like to ask Dominique if he thinks that fraud should just be wiped out of the criminal code or something. Sure sounds like it.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:31:18 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Good one James!(nt)
Message:
hhhh
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:16:45 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Help the weak ones!
Message:
I think the guy missed his own point. The guy says: 'if people are to weak and gullible that is their problem.'
Thats the whole point of this site. To help the weak and gullible break away from some turd that has claimed he's the lord of the universe, and he will bring world peace. It's probably not to difficult to buy that sandwich when your really searching for love etc..If the guy is strong enough to resist M's total dominance plan...well goody for him! Point is their are alot of people that bought it all, lock stock and barrel.
Is this guy saying those people are crazy? Is he saying the cult of M is not a cult at all, and every X premie here just imagined their horrible experiences. Like an adult who has fake flashes of child abuse. I don't think so.
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 15:43:25 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: not so nice...
Message:
Sounds like Dominique has a ways to go. Funny he thinks The Guru Papers is authoritarian, but his beloved goober is not. Also just because he says Claudia's kid is not goober's doesn't mean it's so.

As far as HIV and 'exposed sex scandals' well that's the first I heard of the HIV issue, and I've been here for a while. Anybody else remember anything about this being discussed here?

If people are too weak and gullible that is their problems not anyone else that is the way we learn through our mistakes..

Lots of sympathy here. What a swell guy. Sounds like he's the weak and gullible one, to me.

For that matter we should be so angry as to the Authoritarian ways of society who also don't give a shit about any of us. Maharaji never did anything to me detrimental nor to anyone. Just like our parents they were not always nice to us.

I might have to disagree with this a tad...

This guy is still a premie. He's still under the spell and he wants us to lay off his beloved goorroo. What else is new?

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 17:57:19 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: so
Message:
>As far as HIV and 'exposed sex scandals' well that's the first I heard of the HIV issue, and I've been here for a while. Anybody else remember anything about this being discussed here?

Apparently you missed some posts that were aimed at Claudia.
I think at one time she was speculated to be dead.
And of course M was in the jail in Africa.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 00:41:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Who are you to talk, Chris?
Message:
No one here ever seriously thought for more than a nano-second that that copy-cat cult leader in Nigeria, the one who called himself 'Guru Maharaj Ji' and beat up his devotees and was imprisoned for some sort of fraud, was ever the Hamster. It was a curiosity we explored back before EPO when we were posting on alt.support.ex-cult and had no idea what was going on with Maharaji.

Claudia? Who knew?

But what have you ever done to clarify a single fact, to discuss a single factual claim, theory or question about this information control freak we once called God? Nothing. Instead, you've smirked there for years, unwilling to actually really engage in conversation, clear things up if you have any real info that could do that, act like a responsive human being.

My point is that you have no right to laugh at any rumours here, true or false. You've done nothing to fill in the blanks such as they exist.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 02:16:09 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Who
Message:
>My point is that you have no right to laugh at any rumours here, true or false.

I am not laughing.
Some of the rumours have been vicious.
Its the responsibility of those who post to post what they know to be true. Don't post hearsay or falsehoods disguised as facts.
I am counting on you Jim to get the details sorted out.

>No one here ever seriously thought for more than a nano-second that that copy-cat cult leader in Nigeria, the one who called himself 'Guru Maharaj Ji' and beat up his devotees and was imprisoned for some sort of fraud, was ever the Hamster.

I have some copies of old postings. You so sure? I remember people trying to make a correlation with Marajis speaking schedule for instance.

There is a long history of this forum and the newsgroup that a lot of people don't know. For one, you got me involved in the first replace with an invitation.

Anyways, happy investigating.

CD

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 21:40:18 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: yeah, I do....nt
Message:
asdfgd
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:28:05 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: How can you even.....
Message:
help out this nobb? Listen to him. With his 'fuck em if they can't keep it together' additude.(please don't post the correct quote. Iknow what was written!) He sounds like a real loving premie. Are you like this bozo CD? I don't think you are. Why is it so important for you to try and help this guy out. I mean even when I was in the church, I found pricks I didn't want to associate with?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 02:25:41 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: How
Message:
>Listen to him.

Might have some info on past rumours. But who knows?

>Are you like this bozo CD?

What of it?
You have an agenda that may have nothing to do with the truth.
Your church is that.
This is this.

I have been around premies since 1972. I have some idea of what they are up to. And I also don't really know anything about anybody else except me. And I don't even know where I go when I die or if I go anywhere. Tommorrow is a mystery too. You know, we really don't know all that much when you think about it.

CD

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 13:29:11 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Er, CD
Message:
CD: I have some idea of what they (premies) are up to.

CD: And I also don't really know anything about anybody else except me.

Chris, if your SQL is as contradictory as your writing about m's scene... well, heck! you are well stuffed!

Anything can be proved from A & not A.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 17:32:20 (GMT)
From: bill--He aked about HIV
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: posts, yes there were some.CD is a forum 1 guy.nt
Message:
sdfh
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 06:43:08 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: bill--He aked about HIV
Subject: posts, yes
Message:
I make a simple comment about past posts that people may be unaware of and I get bizarre responses (not from you).

thanks for the comment clearing things up a bit
doesn't help me but you give the forum more credibility

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 16:25:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: WHO ARE YOU TO LECTURE ABOUT CREDIBILITY?
Message:
Too fucking much! You're a liar. You don't have the courage to have an honest discussion. And you have the audacity to lecture us about forum credibility?
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 14:34:34 (GMT)
From: bill--werent you here at
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: the first month of the forum?..nt
Message:
dgh
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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 20:45:33 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: bill--werent you here at
Subject: the first
Message:
Yes.
Actually Jim sent me an invite to check out the NewsGroup where a discussion about M was taking place.
Seems like quite a while ago.

CD

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:07:02 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: so
Message:
'Aimed' is rather a loaded word, is it not, CD? I have read mention of Claudia and her alleged affair with prem rawat, but do not recall anything about HIV. Do you?

As for the Africa thing, again, what are you talking about? I do not recall any discussion about prem rawat being in jail in Africa. I do remember some discussion about the goober clone in Nigeria who was indeed imprisoned. He called himself 'Guru Maharaji' and I supposed he was self-styled after our own beloved goober.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 16:37:21 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Is that Dominique Richard the wholistic healer?
Message:
There was a Dominique Richard who was a naturopathic doctor in Manhatten around the mid-80's - upper West side. He was close with Claudia Rawat and that's why the premies flocked to him. He specialized in a new-age type healing using Bach Flower remedies, etc. I met him once when my wife had a consultation with him. He was very sweet, gracious if a bit hyper-flamboyant. His prescriptions were part medical and part creative thought - too esoteric for my wife. He had a huge red stone heart sitting on his desk.

Funny he never received K but is definitely a premie. I think a lot of the old guard is like that. Don't practice K at all but go see him or watch avideo to cop a nostalgia buzz and then defend him as if he were infallible like the Pope. It occurred to me, in my last days of M+K that if I wasn't practicing the K, then M was not my teacher.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 15:24:51 (GMT)
From: bill---Dumb guys blithly
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: say 'so what?'--we are not THAT dumb...nt
Message:
sdghn
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 13:39:48 (GMT)
From: george washington II
Email: nun
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Here's a nice email
Message:
hi, that's a REAL GREAT message, dominique, that's exactly
how i feel about this whole RAM cult (Rant About Maharaji)
thanks for posting it sir dave, and also thanx for posting
my prem nagar search warrant from the world wide link up on
the forum, but i had also done that prior to your 'aimable'
intervention - that's french in honor of our french friend
dominique...best regards to everyone,
george washinton II formerly posting as romilar
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 13:53:38 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: george washington II
Subject: Here's a nice email
Message:
Dear George (formerly Romilar). I was glad to post details of that Prem Nagar search for the girl because it was the one true and honest statement which I've heard from you. As you know, I deleted your previous post to The Great Worldwide Linkup because it was a load of ranting about how crap the ex-premies are etc.

If she turns up, let us know. It's what I designed that site for.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 14:03:29 (GMT)
From: george w.
Email: nun
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Here's a nice email
Message:
wow, is that true it was my one and only true and honest
statement ??? well we all have to start from scratch sometimes..
i'll let ya know if the girls shows up...keep on rockin'....
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:02:43 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: children of the cult
Message:
Hi,

I want to collect narratives from people who experienced Divine Light Mission as children, so if there are any Xers out there who were underage victims and want to share 'that experience' - feel free. Or if anyone can recollect how children were delt with that would help too. The more information the better. I aim to publish the stories along with a detailed account of how EV covered up the Jagdeo issue.

Marianne, could you send me that article on children and cults?

Thanks

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:18:25 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: children of the cult
Message:
Hi, Abi, don't think we've conversed before.

Hope your appeal for people who (as children) were influenced by the cult produces some feedback for you.

In the meantime, perhaps this link is worth reading:

http://www.csj.org/pubs_co/guestcolumn/cultismandlaw.htm

Best.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 15:20:03 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: children of the cult
Message:
Yeah, me too! But maybe I have enough material anyway.

Thanks for the info - you're very kind

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:27:46 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: children of the cult
Message:
Try this:

Go to: http://www.sfgate.com/

then when you get there type in 'cults' in the 'jump to' box, and you'll come up with a load of articles about children of different cults (Hare Krishna, Scientology, a dauther's story of leaving her father's cult, etc.) Skip the first five links, but no. 6 and onward looks like it has what you want.

Good luck, and when your work is published, please let us know where/how we can read it.

Thanks

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:23:35 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: children of the cult
Message:
Thanks Monmot,
that's all very helpful info. Sure, I'll let you know when it comes out.
Abi
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:06:25 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: How to find the articles
Message:
Abi: Maybe someone else will put up the link that you can click on to get the articles, but here's the way to find them:

www.sfgate/chronicle

You'll see a sidebar entitled 'Alternative Religions'. That will send you to all of the articles. The articles were printed in the San Francisco Chronicle newspaper.

Hope this helps. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 13:08:45 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Abi
Subject: Abi!
Message:
Hey there! Please send me your email address and phone number. I'm in Ireland again, til the end of April.

I'll save the rest for the phone.

It will be great to hear your voice, lil sis.

Love, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:27:14 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: will do
Message:
I'll drop you a line asap
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:28:41 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Spread the word
Message:
I couldn't give a flying fuck about whether people stay in the cult or leave it. Personally, I find the cult utterly boring and anything to do with it, the same.

But Maharaji, I'm after his blood. I'll screw him into the ground and make him take back every last stupid word he ever said. I'll print out all of his satsangs on paper and make him eat them.

Some people think that I'm nice - but I'm not. I'm nasty and not afraid to admit it. I don't like being conned or made a fool of and anyone who really crosses me had better watch out. Sure I've been ripped off in the past but money, that's nothin' and can be replaced.

So have a look at my site. It's The Truth about Maharaji and please feel free to print it all out and snail mail it to any premie you like. And also, email the website address to any premie you can think of.

If any of you incur stationary or postage expenses doing this, let me know and I'll re-imburse you.

This is a weekly public announcement advertising my website The Truth about Maharaji so that Maharaji's little scam can be wiped out.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 11:05:40 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Axe weilding Goth and Giorgio Moroder??
Message:
I couldn't give a flying fuck about whether people stay in the cult or leave it. Personally, I find the cult utterly boring and anything to do with it, the same. etc.

...or is it Jean Michel Jarrre?

You seem to be transmuting into the axe weilding Goth who guards your site. Don't forget that the numbers of people who 'stay in the cult or leave it' may reflect how successful campaigns such as yours to enlighten them, have been.

You sound a bit like a Basil Fawlty, on the one hand courting customers but on the other not being able to restrain showing your disdain for them.

If your site isn't designed to serve the premies about whom you claim you couldn't care less, then to whom do you seek to provide an information service?

Maharaji himself (who seems to be the sole target of your revenge) is not about to read your site as far as I can see. From what I am currently hearing he has a policy to strictly avoid giving his opposition any attention whatsoever.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 11:45:44 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Axe weilding Goth and Giorgio Moroder??
Message:
On the whole, I think that ex-premies are too nice. Perhaps it's a throwback to the old politically correct cult years when we were supposed to be loving and devotional etc.

It's because that ex-premies and also premies are too nice that a certain Indian man has been able to wipe the floor with them amd make fools of them and continue to do so with amazing regularity.

If that little Indian man was dealing with people in the real world and not a bunch of lovey dovey, self effacing apologisers then he'd have no chance!

Just my observations.

And I see a definite political correctness here on this forum. I am after shutting up a dangerous and idiotic fool. If I express my raw feelings it seems to go against the 'niceness' of this forum. I have had quite a few of my posts here deleted and have even been called a psychopath by some of the participants. I might add that all of the posts I have had deleted were dishing out (written) verbal abuse at Maharaji and not any forum participants.

And yet I see here a lot of (written) verbal abuse and veiled threats against fellow forum members. And most of that isn't deleted. I have never threatened or abused fellow forum participants.

Here we deal with thoughts that are written and as they say, 'The pen is mightier than the sword'. While Maharaji probably doesn't read this site, his honchos do and when word gets back to him that the forum participants are not a bunch of confused and lost souls in therapy but are a deadly serious opposition to him, he gets the message.

Maharaji thinks the ex-premies are fools. He treats them with utter contempt. And it's up to people here to show him otherwise.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 04:51:26 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Do you have questions for PWKWARTI ?
Message:
PWKWARTI = People With Knowledge Who Are Reconsidering Their Involvement

Somewhere inactive is a thread where hypothetical questions were proposed to ask an instructor. I think it would be helpful for PWKWARTI's to have a list of good questions to consider. Someone posted a check list of 'you may be in a cult if...' but I think questions specific to Maharaji and Knowledge would be quite powerful tools for PWKWARTI's. So if you have any questions you would ask a fence-sitter post 'em. For example:

You've been following Maharaji and practicing Knowledge for X number of years. If Maharaji is the master of this Knowledge, why haven't you, or anyone else for that matter, learned enough about Knowledge to speak about it?

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:06:56 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Seriously though, here's some questions for them.
Message:
Some questions for puke artis:

How is your body feeling?

Have you ever heard of the concept of the emotional body? It is sometimes used to describe a person's nervous system wiring. Feelings like rage, fear and grief tend to loop around in there. When your emotional body isn't happy, its excess backs up into your so-called mind and causes disturbing thoughts. How do you think your emotional body is doing?

Do you have disturbing thoughts? How do you feel when you think about the rumors you have heard about MJ? I'm not asking to debate this question with ex-premies in a verbal answer, just inviting you to notice how you actually FEEL, in the privacy of your own space.

Has your involvement with Maharaji actually increased or decreased the load you are carrying?

has he ever made you feel guilty or unworthy about your efforts?

Has he ever made fun of something you hold precious?

How are your relationships?

How was your relationship with your father? Which parts of it didn't or don't you enjoy? (e.g. felt abandoned, controlled, unseen)

Do the same for your relationship with your mother.

Now notice any ways that these unresolved parental issues (which you brought with you into MJ's world) are in any way similar to your real feelings about your relationship with Maharaji. Here are some examples of other people's responses from actual live cases:

'I was always afraid to tell my dad how I really felt because I was afraid he would get angry or derisive.'

'My whole experience with my mother was one of deep, unrequited longing, a desperate yearning for the love that would make me whole.'

'No one in our family dared tell the truth about dad's secrets. It was tacitly understood that this was not information for 'outsiders,' who wouldn't 'understand.' '

'I am still waiting for approval from my parents. My desperation to be close to MJ was just my attempt to work this out. But it just perpetuated the pattern, because I had unconsciously picked someone, like my parents, who was incapable of giving approval, because he was a narcissist.'

'My main memory of my family of origin is that I was always competing with my siblings for my parents' attention. I reiterated this pattern in the dog-eats-dog premie world, always trying to climb on someone's head to get closer to MJ.'

If any of this rings a bell, or sets some feelings off inside you, have no fear. The process of waking up to your real feelings and extracting any parasitical outside entities that you have unwittingly installed in your psyche is a very good one. You will feel much better as you go through it, even though you have been programmed to believe you are 'enjoying life' now.

The difference in the spirituality that you will be able to access, if you want, when you let go of your unhealthy ties with the cult you are in, is that it will include all parts of you. All your feelings will be okay, and you will feel an incredible relief like a homecoming. We know that you have been programmed to believe that MJ has given you this relief, but you may know from the way you really feel inside that he hasn't.

Please reach out for help in freeing yourself if any of this stimulates a desire for change.

Love Disculta

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:47:21 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Powerful questions Disculta - thanks
Message:
BTW: This thread was meant as completely serious (except for the cute acronym). Janet translated PWKWARTI as puke arti, which wasn't my intention - only to come up with a name other than fence-sitter. I was trying to be clever but, I think these questions need to be asked with respect for the person who is stuck and not as an attack - my style.

That said, your questions and line of thought strike at the core of what kept us all bound to M & K. It addresses what keeps many people 'sort of hanging to the toes'. I have a long time friend who has multiple graduate degrees and a $100k job in technology. When I asked this person what they would wish for if they had one wish the reply was 'to stay at the lotus feet.' So the emotional bondage you speak of is indeed deep.

Just reading through your post I was breathing heavy and had sweaty palms - intense! I'll be rereading these for awhile until I feel comfortable with them and resolved.

Postie

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 19:19:25 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: A quick question
Message:
Postie, this is an interesting and helpful thread.

I just have one quick question. Regarding your friend whose 'one wish' was 'to stay at the lotus feet.' How long has that person been a premie?

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 20:13:45 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A quick answer - since 1972
Message:
Joe, I don't think any Newbie PWK's would use that language to describe 'that connection' to M. But I think it represents the emotional bondage indicated by Disculta. And I think, without that emotional tie - it's just Captain Rawat and his toys.
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 17:50:19 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Here are some more questions for fence-sitters
Message:
What is your experience now? Do you in any way attribute your experience to Maharaji? If so, in what way?

Do you practice Knowledge now? If not, why do you still go see Maharaji?

Do you believe Maharaji has supernatural powers? Which ones?

Do you consider Maharaji to be like the Pope or the Dalai Lama? Is he infallible in your mind?

What is Elan Vital's policy about compensating people who were sexually abused by Mahatma Jagdeo?

What do you think about Maharaji accidentally killing a cyclist in India, then leaving the scene and having a devotee take the blame?

So many premies - especially PAMs - smoke outside every event during breaks. Isn't Knowledge enough to satisfy one's deepest desire?

Why do you need those carefully sanitized packets of information to talk about K? What happened to talking from our own experience? Is Maharaji ashamed or afraid of what his devotees might say? Is your own personal experience not valid after practicing K for 30 years?

Is the Participation Team secret, how do you know there is one? Do you know why it is secret?


There's a few questions to get started.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 09:57:01 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Do you have questions for PWKWARTI ? very good
Message:
This is a great question Postie....

You've been following Maharaji and practicing Knowledge for X number of years. If Maharaji is the master of this Knowledge, why haven't you, or anyone else for that matter, learned enough about Knowledge to speak about it?

This is as I see it the archilles heel for the cult, I know it was for me.

It seems logical that if there is something to be gained and learned through this experience one would have more to offer in the way of explanation to others more than just a smug insouciant attitude that is indifferent to even an attempt at explanation. As if to imply that we (those who have knowledge) are so supierior, to someone who is truly inquiring that they do not deserve an honest answer. Far be it for them to be smart enough to understand what this is all about through a legitimate inquiry.

Just lead them like lambs to the fleecing room, and let the cult shake them down, don't explain anything or better yet do not believe that you are even worthy of discussing the topic. Mindlessly point them to a video and let M sell them on the idea that he is the only one who can talk with any authority about 'his' knowledge.

One thing that I have learned from all of my years of practicing knowledge is this.

Nobody owns this thing called knowledge, and if there is something to be gained by it, no one, no teacher, no master, no mystic or guru has the right to a better opportunity or to a higher or richer experience of the knowledge than you or I or any other regular/ordinary person does.

As for whatever experience the knowledge holds, ordinary people can have the same experience as the so called Lords and Masters. The only difference is the rhetoric that everyday people are drilled with to keep them enslaved to the notion of master.

Knowledge itself is a great equalizer, that is what M does not want you to find out, That would ruin his monoploy on the minds of the thousands that he has been fleecing for years.

The Internet, the greatest source of knowledge ever, may yet prove to be the undoing of M and many other cults as well.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:04:27 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: ARE YOU HAPPY? if not why not? you have K! nt
Message:
z
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 04:12:05 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Roy
Subject: Right on Roy - good question (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 10:08:44 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Now that's what I call clarity, Gregg and Brian S
Message:
''Knowledge itself is a great equalizer, that is what M does not want you to find out. That would ruin his monoploy on the minds of the thousands that he has been fleecing for years.''

That is why he stopped satsang. I am trying to find another word for K because it is a cheap sound-bite.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 10:28:31 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Now that's what I call clarity, Gregg and Brian S
Message:
'That is why he stopped satsang. I am trying to find another word for K because it is a cheap sound-bite.'

Yeah Pat, I too am at a loss for another term to serve the purpose of communicating here on the experience formerly known as knowledge.

Any suggestions? Hey, I might have hit on something just then, like the artist formerly known as Prince.

'The Experience Formerly Known as Knowledge', What do you think?

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:10:29 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Well, Brian Gregory Smith formerly known as PWK
Message:
Good for an interim term but still too close the Maharaj Jism sound-bite. I tend to go back to use the old sanskrit yoga terms until I have thought about more in English.

Buddhi means mind, knowledge, consciousness, conscience, imagination or what you perceive when your eyes are closed. The techniques are use to clean the buddhi and experience satchitanand, clear consciousness and bliss. No - too much like mumbo-jumbo. Still thinking.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 10:10:14 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: PS I meant Postie and Brian S
Message:
Just mentioned Gregg in another post. Oops.
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 10:15:14 (GMT)
From: Brian G Smith
Email: bgsmith@teleport.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: PS I meant Postie and Brian S thats funny Pat
Message:
Gregory is my middle name
Brian G. Smith
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:35:44 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Do you PWKWARTI ?[ puke arti?] too rich by half!
Message:
good one.
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:49:26 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Cute translation but not my intention. (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 22:37:38 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: search engine trouble...
Message:
Google is a wonderful search engine - but tonight, looking for 'maharaji' - it came up with 62 links to Maharajis site in various languages, and elan vital sites internationally before coming up with EX_PREMIE.org

the House of Drek did show up in the 50s but who is going to scroll even that far.

Is there anything we can do to raise profile with the engines ?

How do these things work ? Do you buy your way up the lists ?

Loaf

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 03:25:31 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: search engine trouble...
Message:
Altavista comes up with 'Not maharaji Mixed Bag' as 9, and ex-premie as 22. Am not sure how this is done, but will dig it up.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 05:46:20 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: search engine trouble...
Message:
well, I did some work which is gonna cost $767/half an hour which you can collect of rawat the sucker and pay me.

So I asked me mates for clues and it appears that the rancking/placement in a search engine is collorated to the number of hits a site gets.

Does that mean ex-premie is on the downside?

NOP. It means that EV website is being accessed more often at present. It's Amaroo time and every little brain dead spineless brainwashed cult member is accessing their site, that automatically will raise them up the ladder. But not to worry, won't be long before it dies off. Also remember, EV has that secret little com sys, First something or something, and they keep spamming the brain dead spineless brainwashed cult members with e-mails to visit their site. Anyway, me and a couple of me mate have already broken in their web site and planted a custard tart bomb, very soon they will be orbiting Mars.

What? is it superman? Or is it an alien space ship? oh no, it's rawat, holly cow?

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:08:26 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: addition to my other post
Message:
But then again, if you put in Maharaji and Lard or Rawrat, who'd come up to the top? ===LOL!
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 00:15:48 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: search engine trouble...
Message:
There are programmer's tricks, and I suspect buying your way in may figure with the Yahoos of the world.

One big help used to be (maybe still is) meta tags. The more descriptive words you have in the meta tags, the more hits you get when people look for those terms. A humble little website I did used to come up to the top of the search engines all the time due to meta tags on the key pages.

Any programmers out there with answers on this? I'm sure you could look on www.cnet.com, probably under builder.com and see all the webmaster tricks laid out. I know it's all out there, but I don't have the time to read it!

--f

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 21:02:58 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: nothing better to do
Message:
so i've been annoying EV's new site

Amaroo.Sucks


Scanning and pinging their ports. Sheesh. Ahh i don't know, I think am going to a reform school.
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 22:19:20 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: salam
Subject: Hopefully The Kool-Aid Will Be Too Expensive (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 19:47:20 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Holy Breath? Holy Ghost? Holy here it is again -
Message:
Here's a recent quote from EV's website, (published only last week) about M and what 'his' knowledge really is:

(Knowledge? - of what? the infinite?

What's infinite about meditating on your breath? Your breath is finite. Or are we immortal, and our ghosts breathe?)


Anyway, here's the quote, from EV's daily dose of the Maha's miasmic muddle:


Vol. 2 - Issue 36, Feb. 19 2001


Daily Edition

'There are no rules'

Edited excerpt, Maharaji in London, 14th June 1998


'Simplicity is within, it is not outside us.
The journey is not out that way. The
journey is in this way. This is your
home. When you go to somebody
else's home, you straighten out your
tie, and make sure your jacket is right,
your hair is right, you make sure
everything is right. But when you come
home, it is exactly the opposite. The
tie comes off, the jacket comes off,
the cufflinks come off, the shoes go
flying. What's the difference? Is it
because you don't like your home? Sometimes you see
people walking around in their home in the morning, and
what a sight! But the door is shut. There are no rules.
You can be how you want to be, you can get up
whatever time you want, especially on a Sunday. You
can be dressed or undressed - it doesn't matter.

That would be a sad day when you actually had to get
dressed to go to the bathroom. Blowing your hair, and
fixing your tie. That would be a sad day. But, in this
home that I am talking about, there are no rules. There
is just you and you and you. And the infinite one
. And
where is that? Within you.'

.
.
.
Isn't he implying that 'within you is God?' - and also that without HIM - i.e. Maharaji - you'll be unaware of that 'God'?

So what does that make the Maha? Greater than God for revealing 'god' to you? That's what he used to imply.

Still DOES imply, IYAM (=If You Ask Me)

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 23:01:31 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Implied, hidden meanings galore
Message:
There are lots of implied, hidden meanings in the maha's cult, in what he says. It's another conman trick, implied meanings are harder to defend yourself against. They are often far more powerful than things stated explicitly. You might not even know what's going on. Before you know it, you're believing certain things, unaware that these concepts were implied in what you heard. They are in a sense implanted in you.

For example, when maha or his bro rogerji talk about all their expensive stuff (well, except for the maha's 106 foot yacht) - sometimes even boastfully, there is an implication that they deserve all this stuff, that they deserve the premies' money, even though it's the premies that earned the money by working. There's an implication that premies are inferior to them and so should fork over their money. And of course there's that implied concept of lila (God's play), which the maha uses a lot. Yea, that's the ticket, the maha's the incarnation of God, so he can do whatever he wants, including taking premies' money and verbally and physically abusing them.

If it walks like a duck...

And this one sucks.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 20:19:38 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The strategy of vague illusions to God
Message:
If you read the crap Maharaji says these days, a lot of it is like this. He has vague illusions to God, that HE is God, etc., all so it can be taken a couple of ways, depending on who you are talking to.

I guess the literal interpretation is that in meditation, you can be relaxed in your own house, and doing things in the external world is like being in somebody else's house, where you can't be yourself. That's one interpretation, and what would likely be the interpretation at a Maharaji cult introductory program, or on the Elan Vital website.

But note that the same words allow a programmed premie to see another interpretation, that through knowledge, including meditation, belief and understanding that Maharaji is the incarnation of God, and participation and gratitude to Maharaji, you can be with God, inside, and be saved. This is what most premies believe, but this isn't the interpretation you would get at an introductory program, or from Elan Vital, but I think Maharaji is quite aware of what he is doing.

Using the words 'infinite one' means Maharaji is cutting it kind of close between those two definitions.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 20:37:30 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It is double-talk - illusions and allusions both
Message:
you know what, Joe, I think he's always tried to have it both ways - on one hand allowing room for the interpretation that 'perfect master' was only meant to mean 'master of perfection' - then the next day implying that 'master of perfection' meant 'the infinite one' etc. etc.

His message hasn't changed in as much as his message is whatever you chose to read into it. Though I must admit that some of his claims (such as 'I swear on the Bible that I will establish peace in the world' - and his claim about Millennium 73 being 'the most holy and significant event in human history') left very little room for interpretation.

To that extent, he's not the best con-artist the world has ever known.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 21:56:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: It is double-talk - illusions and allusions both
Message:
To that extent, he's not the best con-artist the world has ever known.

No, I think you are right. He isn't very good at it and that's why he has so few followers, and is so miserable at attracting new ones. I guess in India he can play 'perfect master' and that has some success, but I don't think he has a clue how to present any of this to Westerners. I think he just kind of randomly tries stuff, the latest being 'auto-knowledge.'

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 22:33:49 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Western mind
Message:
I think it was Krishnamurti who said that the Western mind would never completely understand Eastern religion. His point seemed to be that we in the West would not nor could not fully accept Eastern religion because our culture had not evolved out of the same mindset/philosophy/cosmology. In certain groups of people in India, 'taking a guru' is as complicated and emotionally wrenching as it would be for us Westerners to set up a credit card account. Some considerations must be made but it's just part of what one does living in this culture.

The reason Maharaji could even attempt to export a guru/devotee product to the West, is the climate of the times in the early 1970's. The rebelious and culturally experimental late 60's early 70's opened the doors wide for anything that would promise a more alive culture and a more palpable spirituality. It worked for awhile because of the prevailing willingness to believe but ultimately has imploded because the pendulum has swung back. There is certainly value in studying Eastern philosophies and incorporating what wisdom one can glean from it. Tibetan Buddhism is widely 'practiced' in the West now, but I seriously question if it is the same Tibetan Buddhism as a 50th generation Tibetan would know.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 23:42:23 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Western mind
Message:
I agree with what you said, but I actually think that if Maharaji retained the 'perfect master' business he might actually do better in getting recruits in the West, and he wouldn't be open to all the criticism he is getting by lying about, and covering up, his past.

He would probably only have a small following, but what he is doing now in the West is neither 'Perfect Master,' nor is it some kind of secular new-age, meditation study, or some kind of personal growth course. And so, he has a hard time even holding on to the people who bought the perfect master nonsense, and he can't attract hardly anybody new because he isn't really offering anything that looks much different than if available from a meditation course.

He is trying to straddle and fence and hence loses out on both fronts. Maybe he thinks that if he kept up the perfect master business he would have been run out of the country. At least as it is, he seems to be able to hold onto a wealthy lifestyle, while trying not to draw too much attention to himself. I think THAT is his real aim.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 10:00:28 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Western mind murdered it's only living God
Message:
What a clear thinking bunch of posts in this thread. I wish I'd added my Demystifying Maharaj Jism 101 here.

Yes, Postie it is impossible to introduce the concepts of pantheism and polytheism to our montheistic culture. And the second coming of Jesus is probably rotting in a loonie bin somewhere.

Joe, I have often thought that if he just stuck with his original act it would have at least been more honest. He is a divine being to the Indians but they also often have several gurus and go to visit the newest and latest pundit or swami who comes to town.

cq, his message has not changed because he has not changed. He still believes that he is the chosen one.

He's trying to have it both ways but the Master thing will not work in the west. He's out of business here.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 20:02:58 (GMT)
From: bill--no rules, you can
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: abuse and use those in the illusion...nt
Message:
liuu
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 17:15:54 (GMT)
From: bill--Anyone live by Ira
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Woods willing to talk to him? Rescue him?..nt
Message:
ftk
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 18:07:32 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: bill--Anyone live by Ira
Subject: My Two Cents Worth On Ira
Message:
He was my favourite cult person in the 70's - I loved his satsangs - he never failed to make me smile. They were a strong offset to the regular hyperserious shit.

I was shocked when I heard him speak in the 90's after not seeing him for a long time. He was deadly serious - not one smile or joke. Something was triggered in me when I saw this change.

The last time I saw him a few years ago I was relieved to see a bit of twinkle in his eye. I made some 'meaningful' eye contact with him which stayed with me.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 06:45:19 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: On Ira
Message:
ira was one of my favorites for a long time. i knew him in new york my first months as a premie and up until a point, the experiences were always good. i once spent an evening in 1560 race making dinner for the whole house as his assisstant that night, and it was fun and funny.

years passed and you're right. something changed. he got to be much more like david smith.
at my last event ( written in my journey- the day i snapped and walked out of the santa monica civic center event) i happened to brush by ira outside the building during lunch break. he was gabbing away on a cell phone. i stoped just long enough to smile and remark ' hey-- ira woods! one of my favorite people!'

to which he cryptically-- and as i thought about it later, offensively--returned ' I can change that!---?'

what kind of a jerk rejects the greeting of a 27 year acquaintence with a remark like that? what kind of freight is carried with such a reply?? no 'hi', no 'hey, thanks', no ' how ya been?'

instead, a string of words, conveying that if someone makes the mistake of liking you, you know what things you can do to make them stop liking you.

there was no humor along with it. he siad it like he meant it.

can you spell 'a-l-i-e-n-a-t-e-d'?

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:25:35 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: On Ira
Message:
I remember Ira from the fall/winter of 71/72 at a kitchen table in New York City. Ira was driving cab and into Gurdjieff. We were tossing about whether he wanted to get into M more or not.

During the '70's I saw him from time to time around NYC in his role as a super-premie, then initiator. We had little to say to one another. I remember him from the Miami program in '77 up on the stage speaking nothing but devotion to the big M as greater-than-God. I remember being really bored and looking forward to hanging with friends and smoking reefer.

The last I saw him was at a party for my friend Gene outside of New York City in the mid-eighties. I was no longer involved with M but had premie friends. Joan Apter was there too. I could be mistaken but I think people were saying she and Ira were lovers, talking about marriage.

Too me it's all interesting and strange phenomena. Curious windows of my life. That's how I often feel about the whole picture really.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 23:29:31 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: On Bobby
Message:
How's your health?

John the concerned stranger

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 00:25:03 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: On Bobby
Message:
My health is quite good. Thanks for asking.

I'm cancer free for now. My illness journeys have given me interesting and meaningful perspectives on the impermanence and rarity of life.

Just saw a doctor my radiologist a few weeks ago. He's amazed I'm doing so well. Said I was definitely on his 'list' when I first saw him after first cancer diagnosis.

Three doctors have called my continued good medical health an enigma. I attribute a major part of my healing to what I call emotional and spiritual processing.

Health and happiness to you.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:11:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: good going Bobby
Message:
And an inspiration. Thanks.
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 18:00:57 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: bill
Subject: Sure, why not?
Message:
But where does he live?
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:35:53 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Sure, why not?
Message:
LA area. I believe.
He was going to college and got blindsided by the rawat and invited all his college friends.

He had a life, I recently read that he looks really old. He must only be about 50. He should look pretty good still.
Only forum types have the strength to deal with his protestations and confusion. He may not be ready, but if he was anywhere near me, I would try. At 50, you could still make a life. He is way out on the limb.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 11:36:28 (GMT)
From: Lily
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Premies dont want to know
Message:
How do we know on what scale premies are leaving the cult?

I have posted on here a couple of times - sorry that I have not written back again to a couple of questions - I couldnt find the threads again to reply.

I am so glad that this Forum exists - it was through it that I really faced all the questions (and answers) that have enabled me to use my judgement - dare I say intelligence to finally see that in fact it is a cult (enough said). What worries me is that if premies do not look at the ex-premies forum, how are where are they going to begin the process of de-brainwashing themselves? I know at least one premie who will not read it at all. Why? Well I suppose that is self explanatory - they dont want to know the truth.

How else can the message get across, not only to premies themselves but all those poor gullible new people waiting in the wings.

By the way - I got K in 1974(when 17 years old). Stopped practicing about 2 years ago.

It all needs to be exposed for what it trully is. Appart from a cult - a cult whereby the leader leads a very lucrative life. All that rubish about knowledge being free. It would be cheaper to pay a basic amount than the drip drip drip of standing orders. Also the stealing of ones self respect, judgement, discimination etc etc not to mention sincerity, love, and very sole. What about big posters 100 foot high saying 'Do not trust this man'

Best love and wishes to everyone.

Lily

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 16:40:30 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: Premies dont want to know
Message:
Hi Lily. Congratulations to you on coming to the correct conclusions that Rawat is a scam-master and the group is a cult. It's a very diffiuclt thing to face when you're still involved, even marginally. I remember the first time I heard the word 'cult' applied to the group, very shortly after leaving, by a psychologist I was seeing, it was a real slap in the face. Some people just aren't ready to face that yet.

I still have quite a few premie friends. And like yours, most (in fact all) don't want to know anything from EPO. Another ex and I tried sort of 'love-bombing' a mutual premie friend we both have known for many years (and in fact he was responsible for me coming to Knowledge back in 1972) with pertinent material from over here via e-mail and it sort of backfired. He got really angry. So we had to back down and close the subject.

But I think just the fact that EPO exists, and the premies know about it, is in itself, a major drip. If I had known of something like this while still involved, yeah, I would have rationalized it away, 'they're all in their minds, etc.', but in the back of my consciousness it would have niggled away until I had to look at it eventually. I'm sure this will happen for many people.

So I have faith that they will all come round in the end, it's just some take longer than others, we all have our own timelines with it all. I am so heartened to see a lot of the people here from the San Francisco community when I was there about 20 years ago (Patrick and Chuck, Francesca) and see what wonderfully clear and outspoken ex's they are. (But then again they were sort of renegade premies, also, like me. Not the super devotional dyed-in-the-wool's.) But even for those types, I think there may eventually be hope. Free speech is a pretty powerful thing to uncover the actual truth of a situation.

Take care, and good luck to you in your ongoing exit process from the cult (and it is a process).
Love,
Joy

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 16:54:29 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Premies dont want to know
Message:
When I first found something anti-M on the net, it was the Instructors' Manual (probably on EPO) and my reaction was to immediately close Netscape with the thought that this shouldn't be published, and even more so, I shouldn't look at it. I think it was another two weeks before I had another look.

So what kind of reaction was that? Obviously to me now it the reaction of a brainwashed cult member, but then I was hardly involved, only occasionally meditated, rarely went to video events, and saw M about once a year. But I was still in the cult, but couldn't see it. I was still paying my $150 per month, and I still believed Maharaji was the Messiah. But I hardly ever spoke about it, and hardly even thought about it.

The brainwashing not to think rationally about Maharaji and knowledge goes deep.

John.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 16:05:46 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: Generalizations don't include everyone
Message:
Lily,

I was an active premie when I first came here in 1997 or 1998.
I have always wanted to know the truth about whatever I was involved in, wanting always to be in the right place at the right time to experience positive growth in consciousness. I heard many things here that affect me to this day. My attitude towards Maharaji, my practice of Knowledge and my basic trust of the whole thing is not what it was. I find myself observing and being involved by association in a quagmire of contradictions.
Needless to say, this is very uncomfortable.

Some here would say and have said that I am an idiot, a fool, and
all the other demeaning names that are hurled at someone who is either too stupid to see or else complicit with a corrupt program such as Maharaji's is depicted here. I am here to tell you that there are more alternatives to this than the two mentioned above. There is the very real possibility of non-physical brain function damage, there is programming that goes very deep, there is a 'twilight zone' thing about all this that affects some people more deeply and differently than others.

Whatever my most ardent critic feels about my indecision fence-sitting or lack of action rather, it is nothing compared to what my own inner awareness is putting me through. Talk to folks who love Maharaji and you will hear the most beautiful stories. And somehow, all those folks who have the beautiful stories know nothing of his 'trips' that are described here on this site. And conversely, the folks who have nothing good to say about him have no recollection of him ever doing anything good for anyone....as if he traveled between two distinct groups of people and was a monster to one group and a saint to the other.

I'll say one thing though for sure. He definitely said in private and in public, on video, in print, and live on stage, that he was the superior power in person. Now he denies it.
It's not like I or anyone else is spilling some secret we happened on in a jungle scroll somewhere, or in a private meeting. He screamed at us invoking the power of God and more and applying large doses of that to our heads and our nervous systems. It had a very deep effect on me. That is all I can say right now.

Lily, I just wanted to let you know that some premies do want to know what's really going on, and the road is not an easy one to travel for everyone who travels it. All ex-premies are not atheists, but some are. All premies are not afraid of the truth, but some are. Generalizations leave alot of people out. So have a good day.

Sandy

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 16:51:19 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: To Sandy
Message:
I was very touched by your post. You may have read my posts but if you haven't, I'll just tell you that I was involved for many years in what was effectively 'decultification' of premies and members of other cults, as a therapist. I want to validate what you said about it not being simple or easy, especially for some people who are more sensitive types. And your comment about brain damage is right on, although I'm not sure it's 'non-physical' even if we don't know how to measure it yet.

The essence of what you described is the extreme disorientation caused by two completely contradictory realities that don't seem to know about eachothers' existence. On the one hand, you have the premies, with their stories of love, and on the other, the people here, with our stories of betrayal et al. And we seem to be talking about two completely unrelated realities. You put this really well - can't remember your exact words. Anyway, I want to address this point:

I have found, in living my life, that it's just about the biggest initiation you could come up against, to deal with and eventually integrate this kind of polarized reality experience. I have experienced it myself in the same context as you (Maharaji) and many, many others, having been involved for the last 15 years in many different schools, groups, belief systems and relationships. It can be quite crazy-making, and yet it can also lead to empowerment, when you decide that actually reality isn't what we say, or what they say, but what YOU SAY.

To put this is 'I' terms, and be more accurate, I found that faced with this dilemma, what I was actually dealing with was my own inner conflict, which had outpictured itself into my universe in an extraordinary magnetic coalescing of people, places and things. Trying to go 'out there' and fix this situation (get the premies to read this site, get the ex-premies to remember their good experiences) was not the point for me, although I gave it the good college try. (When I woke up to the limited cultishness I was in, I spent months trying to explain what I now knew to various high-level instructors. I gave them books, offered them sessions, and eventually let it go). This inner conflict-projected-outward became very, very clear to me as I worked with hundreds of people on these issues, as a counselor. Because as it turned out, the conflicts didn't relate to the outer situations, (two people could be in the same situation with very different experiences), but directly correlated to the architecture of their insides! For example, a person with two parents who continually fed her opposing messages, either overtly or covertly, would organize her psyche into two opposing camps, and from then on, life would seem to mirror this to her, making it seem impossible to find any peace. When these camps were brought into relationship with each other INSIDE her, the outer drama lost its interest, and faded out of her experience. This kind of disorientation is most often a reiteration of conflicts between parental messages, but can also relate to siblings, school versus home, very dominant parents who completely dictate reality versus a secret inner self formed to protect one's own reality, etc. etc.

I found, for myself, that as I integrated the parts of myself that were at war - and realizing that this was the real issue took me a long time and a lot of courage - the outer stuff became more like an amusing soap opera. The whole good guys and bad guys stuff dissolved. I get that this is exactly the process you are in, and this means that you are really, really in recovery from cult thinking, rather than just flipping over into a new and limiting belief system, and I applaud you and offer you any support I can give in this forum.

Love Disculta

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 15:35:32 (GMT)
From: Patrick (former;y Anon)
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: Premies dont want to know
Message:
By the way - I got K in 1974(when 17 years old).

Me too. I got Knowledge in 1974, aged 17 on July 28th at the Palaceof Peace in London, from Mahatma Krishnasuchanand.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 21:41:03 (GMT)
From: Bongo
Email: None
To: Patrick (former;y Anon)
Subject: Dont want to know premies
Message:
Seeing your words ' Palace of peace' and '1974', also Krisnasuk's name, awakened something -simply seeing the words. I was there too then.
Remembering my state, the time and the place, I ask: exactly what was it made me drop my guard and buy into it all?

The answer comes back: idealism. Nothing more than that. It was the offer of being invited to act out of an ideal. It was my first sniff of co-ordinated idealistic action. Nothing spiritual really, simply the chance to be an idealist. Maha's virginity and youth made him appear (appear?) vulnerable, and all the more loveable for it. I joined the army of innocents out of simple adolescent idealism. (at age 28!)

How strange it is now, to see premies, unable to objectify this state, flailling and floundering to keep their old magic alive.

Drop it guys. Differentiate your motives, -religious, status, developmental, emotional etc etc. Untangle.
Love Bongo (still at it)

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 03:49:20 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bongo
Subject: Palace of Peace 1974
Message:
I was there and torn into to shreds inside. The cult was like an Orwellian nightmare and I often thought that God had come and punished us flower-children in the form of a mischievous and immoral Big Brother from India. I was not a sane person at the time because of all the drugs I had been doing.

Still to this day I want to see peace and love on earth and lots of sex and psychedelic rock. Ken and Barbie PWK are not interested. They mostly prefer shopping.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:09:30 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Palace of Peace 1974
Message:
>I was there

I was in Trafalgar Square last November and remembered the rally at the end of the small march with the banners.

>mischievous and immoral Big Brother from India

M was a kid at the time.
I wonder how he saw it trying to convey a message to the 'flower-children'. I remember him one time saying how this one lady that never bathed would always try to sit real close to him at small gatherings. And the one about the premie crashing the truck.
I do no believe that his fundamental message is insidious.
Whatever else was said, he always encouraged people to try and feel what was true for themselves.
'Happiness is an experience, not a consequence' has possibilities.

CD

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:18:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Please answer this then, CD
Message:
I do no believe that his fundamental message is insidious.
Whatever else was said, he always encouraged people to try and feel what was true for themselves.

How do you reconcile that with Maharaji's message that we couldn't trust our minds and that, indeed, the mind was so tricky it could even imitate Maharaji within?

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 00:53:55 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Please answer this then, CD
Message:
>How do you reconcile that with Maharaji's message that we couldn't trust our minds

Nothing is black and white.
It is true that sometimes peoples ideas play tricks on them and become too real.

I never took the message to be don't trust the mind.
I took the message to be don't rely on the mind to get the answers to your biggest questions.

CD

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 01:05:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE A LIAR, CHRIS, .........
Message:
Just because you're a liar, Chris, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm a fool. So why are you treating me like one?

Maharaji did indeed warn us

IN FUCKING SPADES, ASSHOLE

to not trust the mind. He told long, frightening stories about the mind tricking us into thinking that it was Maharaji within when all the while it was really leading us astray, out into the desert, blah, blah, blah.

You are a liar. You know what the truth is but you can't bring yourself to admit it. Please, do us all a favour and GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE! You don't deserve to be here, Chris. SCRAM!

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:44:46 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD , fundamental message
Message:
You said: ''I do no believe that his fundamental message is insidious. Whatever else was said, he always encouraged people to try and feel what was true for themselves. 'Happiness is an experience, not a consequence' has possibilities.''

At the risk of getting bricks thrown at me I will agree with you. Mr Rawat's message 'Happiness is an experience, not a consequence' was and still is not insidious. He is still highly regarded by Indian premies and most of my PWK friends.

The tools to attain that happiness are old and tried and trusted and true. That's why I stuck it out for 28 years eventhough I did not like the organization. Last year I went back to sit on the local community participation committee and what I found then is what eventually made me leave.

I was no longer learning anything new and felt that I was actually being retarded. At first I criticized the PWKs and called them church-ladies but eventually I had to face the fact that the cult-ure of the organization was made dysfunctional by the very fact of having a Master.

The secrecy and lack of democracy and open discussion is what drove me away. Give me democratic satsang anyday. It's what brought me to K and kept me there. When it went I went.

I do not see Mr Rawat as an evil monster. He has tried something that has never been tried before and made some terrible mistakes. In the beginning these errors could be excused by his youth, ignorance of the west and the speed at which things happened.

But he has now been living in the west for 30 years and has still not learned that we are uncomfortable with undemocratic structures. As for his ''crimes'' well, I did not witness them first hand and will only believe them when proved in a court of law.

My main beef with him is not what most exes have. I do not like to judge people but prefer to forgive and move on. I have.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 11:23:19 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: diverse
Message:
There has been a wide range of interpretations and interactions with Maharaji by various people who post here. The whole thing has certainly affected different people in many different ways.

I have no problem with somebody stating a different opinion. It does not bother me if somebody doesn't like Maharaji, doesn't like premie music or has no use for the meditation.
I do have a problem with intolerant bashing of my opinions and understandings as invalid. I have my own substantial experiences to go by.

This is not a simple yes/no subject. There are many details, many levels of interpretation, many shades of gray.
He/she who thinks THE answer is obvious is probably a fool.
Of course we all think we have THE answer.

CD

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 18:56:19 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: CD
Subject: diverse
Message:
I'm stepping back from FV for a while because I need to stick with my own beliefs in loving everyone equally and forgiving and being kind and not judging. I cannot hate Rev Rawat or contribute much in the way of what FV stands for. So, I'm on my way again to just being the wandering saddhu that I was before I met him.

I'm just not sure why you keep posting here. I know that some of the discussions that take place here are fascinating and most of the exes are true idealists and very concerned and truly loveable people and it can be addictive. But no one wants to hear any defenses of Rev Rawat. It's over for them. I don't need to hate him in order to break from him but break from him I have so I did have a bit to contribute but not enough to keep me here.
So long and good luck.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 21:00:19 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Good Luck, Pat!
Message:
with whatever you do. It's been good having you here, and I hope you'll stop by again. If history teaches us anything, you will!:-)

John.

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Date: Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 21:38:19 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Good Luck, Pat Conlon!
Message:
You are kidding, right? You can't stay away. You've just run out of stuff to talk about and you'll think of something soon, I'm sure. I'll bait you with a post about William James - I'm getting into 'Varieties of Religious Experience' and it's giving me a lot of food for thought.

All the best,

Postie

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 20:32:52 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: abuse and brainwashing perpetuated
Message:
could it be that M himself was, as they say, brainwashed?

click on the link above to hear a twelve-year old child (???) tell it like it was told to him.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 22:40:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bongo
Subject: Me too
Message:
I think for me it was idealism too, and the promise that Maharaji could change the world and we could help him.

And there was a real high I got from being with a lot of other people who claimed to have the same purpose.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 03:53:56 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Group high of all being focussed on one thing
Message:
and something that did at first look like the dawn of the Age of Aquarius. It didn't last long because it soon felt like I was being trained to live in an Orwellian world of militancy, conformism and authoritarianism. It's still there but is not needed much anymore because the PWKs, as Connie said, are all so ''precious'' and timid and compliant in their oppression.
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 04:34:57 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: PS Joe
Message:
Joe, I was so nuts in 1974 that I thought that God had come as Big Brother and that we all had to toe the line in a militant organization like ants in a colony and live in bootcamp (ashram) but I felt like a bad premie because I twice refused to move into the bootcamp.

I thought my hippie dream was an evil illusion and that God needed us to be like an army of devotees because the world was getting so bad. I thought I would live to see the day when everybody would be living in little concrete cells eating Soylent green and watching Big Brother on TV stoned on psychotropic drugs. Well, as I said, I was nuts, very depressed and pessimistic that the flower-child revolution had died of drugs or devotion.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 20:47:46 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: PS Joe
Message:
Boy, you were extreme.

I think I just imagined a world in which we all cooperated and weren't in competition with each other. There would be enough to go around because we would all be fulfilled by 'looking inside' and wouldn't need to accumulate wealth, by 'looking outside.' There wouldn't be religious wars because no one would any longer have a religion.

I guess I saw a perfect socialist state with lots of individual freedom.

True, this dream evaporated within the first two years or so. It was clear none of this was going to happen quickly. Then Maharaji dropped the whole notion of changing the world and it was all just devotion to Maharaji and the need for individual salvation through devotion.

So, I kind of thought maybe everyone would be devoted to Maharaji and THAT would do it. Everyone focused on the same thing, and being fulfilled, the same 'perfect socialist state ' would result.

Then that came crashing down, when it became clear Maharaji had no intention of even really spreading knowledge and most people were clearly not interested.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 20:58:10 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: PS Joe
Message:
Well, I'm not really a utopian socialist anymore but I am still a bit of a fighter and would love to see us old flower-children take back the revolution that Rev Rawat stole from us. There are a lot of people of my generation in SF who think the same way and we all do our little bit to fill the world with a bit more freedom and fun.
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 23:20:00 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joe, Bongo
Subject: Idealism and out to save the world, precisely (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:20:14 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: Premies dont want to know
Message:
G,Day Lily,
I find it amazing that premies still say that K is free.They rationalise this by saying 'well noone actually says that you have to give money'.We know better though don't we.This is not the case at all.There has always been a push for money and the attached guilt that goes with it if you do not give.This whole amaroo thing highlights it.It is costing so much money .This is rationalised by telling premies that down the track sometime it will be really cheap to come to amaroo.They are telling premies at the moment that in another 4 or 5 events it will all be payed for and then it will be very cheap to go there. Yeah sure,and pigs might fly.But the premies keep falling for it.

Cheers Aussi Ji(I don't know where that all came from)

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:02:48 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Lily
Subject: Premies dont want to know
Message:
Hello,

Interesting topic. I have found thru experience (sorry for using this word)that it's best to not say anything to active cult members beyond telling them your feelings if you so choose. If and when they want to know your thinking, they'll ask you. The only time I violated this rule was recently someone who knew my feelings, tried to back door satsang me, so I responded with anti-satsang.

I agree that if anyone actually reads all the info here at EPO, they can only minimize(rationalize) it a brief time. The problem I see(and this was surely the case for me)is that by absorbing the info here, one must come to the conclusion that they have wasted many years in this silly, ludicrous cult...and, let's face it, almost everyone still trapped has put in many, many years chasing rawat in the sky within inside.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 18:53:17 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Very True
Message:
It can be a bit overwhelming and very confronting to see it all laid out.

There is JHB's experience of seeing something and shutting it down (motivation: FEAR),

Then there is, like you said, being confronted with the only logical conclusion that one has wasted years, money, and more than that, sincerity and love, on someone who not only isn't worth it, is actually desctructive of one's ability to trust in the future. (motivation: survival? protecting one's identity?)

I think Mike Finch is an example of someone trying to face those somewhat painful, but also very liberating, things.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 07:25:43 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: everyone
Subject: Premies are Cult-A -Holics
Message:
They are addicted to the notion that their collective vision or fantasy is a reality. They are actively participating in trying to make their vision a reality through their financial contributions, service work and auto-hypnosis ( aka meditating on and worshiping an idol.) Sadly the more they invest, the more they stand to lose by acknowledging that they are being taken for a ride. Twenty years of living in vain, of being gullible, of being financially, mentally and emotionally raped by someone you thought was God is very hard to come to terms with. Where do you go from there? When you thought that you were helping to establish Utopia, the Kingdom of Heaven on earth! Die hard idealists don't give up that easy. Sometimes they prefer to stay in denial.
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 18:31:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: We need 'Cult-methadone'
Message:
I think you got that right. I think one of the reasons I stayed in the cult as long as I did was the alternative, seeing it as a big lie, was just too painful.

It would really help to be able to deprogram in stages, but that is pretty difficult, or that there was some kind of medication to take you down slowly. Like methadone(sp?) that heroin addicts can use.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 10:10:55 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: Premies are Cult-A -Holics / how true it is
Message:
Thats right, and after twenty nine years I am finally emerging out from under of all of that bullshit.

It is never too late to reclaim ones free will and life back. I was mired down in the religious cult belief system that had me under the ethers of thinking that I was operating under a different mode than all of the other belief systems/religions of the world.

Maharaji and his cult have created the very thing that he has preached against for so many years, just another concept, another belief, another religion.

When I got here 29 years ago that was the thing that I liked most about this message. Give up all of your concepts, your beliefs, your spiritual baggage, your attachments.

Well I finally did, and now I am truly free

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 03:49:08 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Dear Susan, from thread below.....
Message:
How can I not be affected and touched by these things, especially in what the knowledge arena was supposed to represent?........

I am a human being and a mother.

And I was a premie.

Hope I am not intruding...

When I read some of the posts from those with knowledge regarding this, I felt very ashamed.

I had to face the fact that I was actively involved in an organization that initially denied, then seemed callous, cold and only offered legal speak. Plus, the individual premie (and I was a premie) posts appeared very cruel, mean spirited and threatening. Once again, I found it very hard to understand their lack of outrage and caring, so apparent over the decades, along with their need to excuse Maharaji's behaviour.

I think it was Cynthia who wrote 'Shame, Shame on you Maharaji'. When I read that I burst into tears, everything in me echoing the same, to him and myself.

I also felt some responsibility, being actively involved and knowing many things had been swept under the carpet in the name of Maharaji, leaving a trail of casualties.

These and other things hit very hard, forcing a decision on my part.

The decision was that I had been living in la-la land, and the change I was so desperately hoping for would never come. That the cultish behaviour I saw and hated for years was not because of what I thought the premies had made it, but in reality that is what it was, a cult, and in the name of that cult, anything that represented it or Maharaji in a bad light was excusable and hidden. I also had to accept that Maharaji had and has total responsiblity.

In one way it is ironic. There has been such ferverent use of words like responsibility and accountability, instigated by him. Everything he always said I tried to apply, and it was in trying to do what he asked that opened the flood gates and led to my decision.

I wonder who will get the last laugh?

I sincerley wish you all the best Susan.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 00:02:37 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Connie.....
Message:
Are you from the Midwest? Ever live in the Chicago ashram?

You sound like somebody I used to know.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:49:04 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Connie.....
Message:
Dear Joe

I am not from USA.

At present I would like to be just someone trying to sort it all out.

Respectfully
C
(My name is a joke - a play on being conned)

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:56:37 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Okay.....just wondered (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 18:55:28 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Great post
Message:
'The decision was that I had been living in la-la land, and the change I was so desperately hoping for would never come. That the cultish behaviour I saw and hated for years was not because of what I thought the premies had made it, but in reality that is what it was, a cult, and in the name of that cult, anything that represented it or Maharaji in a bad light was excusable and hidden. I also had to accept that Maharaji had and has total responsiblity.'

I too was hoping for a change for years. I finally gave up and I'm glad I did.

The concept that it is the premies that make it a cult comes from Rawat (aka 'Maharaji'). He uses this concept as part of his scheme. I remember him talking about 'premie paranoia', but he instilled this paranoia in premies in the first place with all his talk of how dark the world is and stuff like 'I'm the only one who cares about you.'

This concept is still being used, at www.elanvital.com, he claims that he claims to be an ordinary person, but that he's treated with adulation. There seems to be two hidden contradictory meanings. One is that he really isn't ordinary; that he's just being humble. The other is that he is ordinary but it's just his followers that are wacko, that it isn't his fault that they idolize him. Here, people are asked to 'excuse' premies' behavior and go along with the idea that he has nothing to do with it, even though he is their 'Master'.

If it walks like a duck ...

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:29:55 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Great post
Message:
'This concept is still being used, at www.elanvital.com, he claims that he claims to be an ordinary person, but that he's treated with adulation. There seems to be two hidden contradictory meanings. One is that he really isn't ordinary; that he's just being humble. The other is that he is ordinary but it's just his followers that are wacko, that it isn't his fault that they idolize him. Here, people are asked to 'excuse' premies' behavior and go along with the idea that he has nothing to do with it, even though he is their 'Master'.'

Ah yes, this is what I believe is the crux of it, and it is one of the things I have been giving a lot of thought to.

My involvement and investment was based on one belief, that indeed he was no ordinary person, and as such, deserved the best I could give, at whatever personal cost. I did this willingly.

The question I have asked of myself and would ask of those involved in whatever way they are is (leaving the 'I am a filament' example aside for a moment):

Exactly who and what is Maharji to me? (i.e. What is my core belief about him).

Other questions/things that related to this for me:

Why is he treated with such fawning, reverence, timidity and sadly, desperation, with monumental effort made not to cause him any discomfort on any level. This is what he expects. There is a word I have heard down the years often amongst those with knowledge, and it is still used today, in direct relation to him, 'Precious'. That seems to suggest something pretty grand.

To put it plainly, if he is not thought of as God, greater than God or whatever, why on earth is he treated like he is, and if he does not believe it himself why does he expect that kind of treatment.

Why do people put up with situations that are often physically, financially, mentally and emotionally taxing if they do not believe this.

Why is his behaviour excused and hidden. If these things were done by someone considered ordinary, would there be so much latitude given. Why is it that another set of rules seem to be applied to him in comparison to the entire human race.

Actions do speak louder than words, and this is where there is a huge contradiction. The words being used today, to the general population and within the organization are totally at odds with how people with knowledge are acting. I eventually saw operating in such an environment was creating a very unhealthy split in me. At the core of myself there was a very smug, arrogant, secretive attitude, I was totally unaware that I was operating from. What a fright! How did Elan Vital and those by association get so deceptive?

When addressing these things in myself, I tried not to use that vague premie abstraction that is used to define most things. I forced myself to really think and feel from my gut level. This was like wading through some thick syrupy mixture.

There has been some talk on the forum of what is called 'knowledge lite' people. From my observation not many people in the west are interested, and if they do take knowledge, hardly anyone stays around. Attrition is fast and high......

Boy, once you start it's hard to stop...


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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 03:38:40 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Thanks, Connie, ex-PWK
Message:
I just really appreciate your quiet sane voice. I just left the urug last New Year's Eve and have been having a lot of fun here on FV. There's a lot of stuff going on but a lot of real truth is spoken here to.

There's also quite a bit of hostile reaction to that ''preciousness'' that permeates PWK-dom. It's jsy a bit of harmless bitterness and acidity and saltiness to counteract the sweet cloyingness of premie preciosity.

Good for you having the courage to break away from such silly teacher. I still meditate and enjoy it and have found the ''Indian Background'' Links on EPO a great help to claim it for myself and not as a ''gift'' from Rev Rawat for which I was supposed to show my ''gratitude'' with monthly donations.

And I am enjoying it all so much more without all the ''concepts'' (such as THE ''Master'') that Rev Rawat was shoving down my throat. I feel nice and clean for a change.

Have fun and feel your own strength coursing through you.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 16:32:56 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: wow
Message:
thanks Connie,

again I am very touched by your words. Another thing that Rawat says that I think is ironic is the 'listen to your heart'

I think that listening to my heart was what got me out so many years ago. I am so happy to read you are listening to yours!

Susan

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 11:24:06 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Connie
Subject: Excellent post, Connie
Message:
Connie: Thank you so much for telling us that it was the disclosures about the Jagdeo sexual abuse, and the cult's and premies' response to it, that helped you to leave the cult. I am certain that Susan and Abi will both be very touched that they were responsible for helping you to leave the cult behind. It was very difficult for Susan and Abi to make this information public. When we exes read posts like yours, we once again applaud their courageousness in posting these horrifying stories, because it exposes the cult for what it is at the highest echelons.

Capt. Rawat has turned the concept of 'truth' on its head in the world of the cult. The truth he told us to aspire to was supposed to bring peace into our hearts and lives. But when that same mirror of truth is applied to him, he asks that we abandon all logical reasoning and not judge him by the same rules, or not judge him at all. Why? Because, as you pointed out, he abjectly fails any accountability or responsibility test, in the way he behaves in his personal life and with his followers.

The $800 Amaroo line the pockets of Capt. Rawat gift tax is just the latest example of his unmitigated greed.

I hope you will write your journey, Connie. Thanks for making this post.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 08:06:54 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Excellent post, Connie
Message:
Dear Marianne

Maybe this is splitting hairs, but

I would not say exactly that it helped me leave the cult.

What it did was enable me to see that I was in a cult, I believe an important distinction.

Once realizing that fact, it allowed me to exercise choice in whether I wanted to be in a cult. Before that realization I did not have the freedom to choose. For that I am very thankful, which contributed to my decision to post.

Perhaps this is what first has to be recognized, before people can leave.

C

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:26:11 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Very important distinction! BEST OF FORUM?
Message:
Hi Connie -
I really liked what you wrote:
I would not say exactly that it helped me leave the cult.

What it did was enable me to see that I was in a cult, I believe an important distinction.

Once realizing that fact, it allowed me to exercise choice in whether I wanted to be in a cult. Before that realization I did not have the freedom to choose. For that I am very thankful, which contributed to my decision to post.

Thanks so much for saying this. That is the whole point of the ex-premie.org site - to give the facts, which we attempt to present as clearly as we can, and let people make up their own minds. (The forum is a bit different because of the ongoing discussions.) I believe premies have had enough of being manipulated into not thinking for themselves, and of feeling like they had no choice.

Again, your insight is much appreciated -
Thanks,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:54:21 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: when there is no more m cult
Message:
Hi all,
I butted in on Scott's thread not knowing the tv show he mentioned and that it was funny but did want to share this and see if others have given it any thought.
I have been wondering lately what with the impending fall of the cult posts I've seen here what we'd all do if it did totally end.
I mean we were all, or most of us, involved in the same cult but would helping people out of or not getting into THIS cult be enough? Would some go on to do the same for people in other cults or at least try to start other ex-cult members do a similar service for the cults they exited from.
Just a thought that has been buzzing around my brain. Could be a worthy cause.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 04:44:17 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: when there is no more m cult
Message:
If in fact m's cult does end completely or become much smaller (which seems likely) there would still be a need for Forum V. It's not easy to get over many years of cult conditioning. Also, I think many premies are at risk of getting into other cults or other wacky things. I know several premies who got in 'the Forum' (the other Forum, as in EST). The gullibility issue is something many ex-cultists need to work on, even after leaving. There's also the stimulating discussions that go on here. I think they are valuable, especially when there is strong disagreement.
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:20:49 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: G
Subject: when there is no more m cult
Message:
Dear G,
Yes, you're right, hadn't thought of that but... :) what do you think of trying to reach out, beyond our little pathetic ex-cult and try to share this method that seems to have worked so well to bring the facts and support to those still in the throws of the cult mind set?
I guess there isn't much intersest beyond m's group judging by the response to this thread.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 15:58:29 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Reaching out
Message:
I think reaching out is a good thing to do, I've done it a little. There is a general ex-cult site with a forum called www.ex-cult.org, but the forum doesn't get much traffic. Some posters need help. The site has info on other ex-cult sites/orgs.

Here's a response there regarding 'Flowers of Yellow Remember Ultima Thule' (a cult):


I have only a little informantion...I have used one of the products, called Yellow Remember Ultima Thule.

It was an empty plastic vitamin bottle with a pretty label. It was said to have been especially energised by a Master to heal and illumine the person who filled it with water and drank from it. No one else is allowed to use the product as it loses effectiveness. Which means of cousr more money for nothing! And it is expensive...


Unbelievable, eh? Yet similar to 'charnamrit' (Rawat's version of Holy Water). I find in useful to read about this sort of thing because it's so easy to see how stupid it is and then relate it to stuff in Rawat's cult.
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 20:32:29 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Reaching out
Message:
Thanks G, I'm going to check out the site. Unbelievable, that vitamine bottle. So easy to see the scam from our perspective now, like it was for our friends and family when we were involved. Sheesh!
There was something I liked so much more about myself when I was so gulible and trusting but sure didn't like being taken advantage of! I try to keep an open heart and mind and just be a bit more 'street wise'. That's just the way it is.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 02:37:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Recently read a book
Message:
while in bed with some flu thing.

It was a commentary on cults in general and the author's subjective outlook on losing a loved one to a cult.
It wasn't M's stupid cult, in this authors description of cults he makes M look likw pretty much small potatoes oops is that potatos?
But it got me thinking how much I hate cults. If M disappeared tomorrrow I'd be glad to see him go. If that meant EPO no longer had any reason to exist I'd let that go too. But I think EPO would continue in some form, may be as a hybrid to other cult awareness groups. and I would like to help because I think this is an important issue.

I have personally been also getting involved in other social issues.
In particular for me since I live where I do, border issues and all they imply including drug enforcement have been a new focus for me.
I think some of us who have made stong bonds will always be in touch, no matter what.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 03:34:15 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yes there is that
Message:
Hi Selene,
yes, I know I have made life long friends here, already strong without continued involvement on any forums but it would be nice to always have one, like AG available for chatting.
I do realise that m's cult is small potatoes, hey you could be President with that potatoes/potatos thing, Vice-Pres for sure!! :) Since we've seen how much this site and forum help people not to get in or to get facts and get out I do think it is worth while for at least those of us who are inclinded, to help other ex-cult members from other cults do a similar service for thier numbers still entangled. I guess it would be a good thing to work on even before the fall of m's set up cause, as in Scott's thread below, there may always be at least one cult member left hanging on, sadly could well be more then one that stay loyal until the end of their days.
Glad you are involved with border issues if that interests you. I have considered hospic work, think I could deal with it and know there is at least one group in the area.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 04:21:26 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: M really is stupid
Message:
Most of Guru Maharaji's followers are hangers on from the 70s
I was one of them until the end of '97
It's hard to let go of a dream.

I should explain my border involvement.
Without blaming any particular party or administration (although Janet Reno drove me up a wall)

The usa/mexican border tension has risen to a very uncomfortable level. The crackdown on what they call 'wetbacks' has led to a new form of border issue. In the past, where I live, more often than not the men who crashed the border were family men looking for work to feed their families.
These days things are more intense, lots of drug smuggling .
And we see many young teens and adults more desperate.
It sucks and I see it from both sides, living where I do.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 04:24:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: oh and in case I get misunderstood by someone
Message:
I'm for legalization and for the reasons stated above and more.
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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 22:40:44 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Poll: Meditation - who, how, why and what?
Message:
Q. Do you still meditate?

A. Yes. I have meditated for over 30 years.

Q. How do you meditate?

A. Dhyana yoga (sometimes called tantra, shakti, kundalini, raja, kriya or jnana yoga.)

Q. Why do you meditate?

A. In order to compose my mind, concentrate it and pull my scattered thoughts together so that they do not obscure my plain clear consciousness.

Q. What do you experience from meditation?

A. Nothing. I meditate in order to experience what already exists and might otherwise be obscured by uncontrolled and scattered thoughts. It strengthens my will-power and gives me serenity and patience and focuses me on the present instead of the past or the future. What I see or feel within me is of no concern to anyone else except in so far as it makes me a nicer person to be around.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:32:03 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Poll: Meditation - who, how, why and what?
Message:
NO formal meditation. I do a lot of visualization - light, color, etc. I need a more active meditation with something to focus my mind on, or I don't get any benefit from it (M's meditation techniques never did anything for me - except make me even more anxious.)

In answer to Postie, I get a lot out of gardening, too. I get to work in a greenhouse at least once a day for work (although sometimes I am too rushed to get much out of it), and I grow ornamentals at home. Would love to grow more (used to have a huge vegetable garden) but space is VERY limited here. I could garden all day if someone would pay me :).

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 09:05:06 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: anyone interested
Subject: Demystifying Maharaj Jism 101
Message:

The main reason that I don't go into too much detail about what I call ''yoga'' is because there is no English word which has precisely the same connotation. Yoga literally means union. Religion literally means ''to bind together'' or unite. In Hinduism yoga has become almost but not quite inextricably mixed up with animism, polytheism and other assorted -isms such as guruism but enough of the original pure form remains to separate the wheat from the chaff.

There are enough references in historical documents and ''scriptures'' to see clues that yoga may have once been practiced throughout the fertile crescent and lingered on into Minoan and pre-Hellenic Greece. But in the west religion no longer means ''union'' in this life but rules for living in the hopes of union in the hext.

The other reason that I don't talk about it is because I have only really begun to think about it recently. Till now I have been practicing it as part of the Maharaj Jism religion and have had certain assumptions which have to be rethought. Right now I only experiment in communicating it to others who are interested because, like certain other private activities, it is something to be discussed only between consenting adults in the privacy of one's own house.

I will only say enough here to meet the level of interest which is mostly in demystifying Maharaj Jism. My contribution to that is to demystify yoga. I did it for 2 years before I got involved in Maharaj Jism and have been trying to do it for 30 years. I may be completely wrong but I'll share what little I have figured out that makes sense for me.

I also do not want to give the EV monitors any ideas of how to do anymore spin-doctoring to make Maharaj Jism more palatable to people in the west. But one thing they can't do is to tell people that guruism is not an option in the west. That would be the end of their raisons d'etre as servants of the Master. So I guess I need not worry that they will pinch my ideas. Their basic premise, the Master, is flawed.

If yoga is presented incorrectly as some mystical mumbo-jumbo it may instill fear and superstition in novices. The secrecy and mystification was intensified when Rev Rawat got rid of satsang. He feared that he would be put out of business when people realized that they do not need a guru and that actually democratic satsang is the best way to share yoga studies.

But the Rev has got a messianic ambition and has bitten off more than he can chew in the west because his abilities do not match the task he has set himself and his motivations are suspect. Among the Indians it is not a problem and he is quite a hit. But, trust me on this one, they see him more as a Billy Graham ''charismatic'' revivalist than as the Lord of the Universe. But then again the growing population of Christian outcastes see Billy Graham and the Pope as gods. Hindus are polytheists and pantheists not montheists like us and they see the world as the manifestation of the supreme imagination and yoga as the way to unite the individual imagination with the imagination that created the universe.

Rev Rawat has played down the messianic bit in the west and engaged in revisionism (much of it I suspect as spin-control to what is said here.) But he has a foot in both worlds. The money used to all come from the west but all the propagation for the past 15 years has been in India and Africa. What he has not yet realized is that he can't have it both ways. The undemocratic feudalism inherent in guruism is acceptable in India but will never work in the west.

Yoga is about exploring the imagination and must be done in a state of perfect mental health and unshakeable self-confidence. Some yogis even believe that phyiscal health is important which is what led to hatha yoga. It's a very private trip and it has to be flown solo. I cannot yet talk about it with sufficient confidence because I feel that I am still healing my mind after having been a mental cripple for 28 years walking with the crutches of the Maharaj Jism religion.

All I know for sure is that it involves a lot more than Rev Rawat taught us and his incompetence and irresponsibility has left me with a lot of cleaning up to do on my own. True yoga/religion (not church) involves more than taking trips into the imagination. It also means developing one's character and compassion. The word for mind in sanskrit is buddhi. It means mind, imagination and conscience. I think Rev Rawat forgot that the English words consciousness and conscience come from the same root and are both needed in true religion.

All the experiences that we had while involved in Maharaj Jism were in our imaginations. Guruism has been around long enough for it's star performers to know how to put on a good enough show to engage the imagination. The human imagination is tied to our creativity and is often experienced in states of ecstasy. Bhakti juju is designed to evoke ecstasy through auto-suggestion and mass-hysteria. Well, most popular socalled ''charismatic'' revivalist religions such as faith healing rely on the same phenomenon. Faith also is tied to the imagination.

When the imagination is stimulated to the point of ecstasy then, as Gregg said, it can make us feel as Keats did when he contemplated a Grecian urn and pronounced, ''Truth is beauty and beauty truth.'' Or as Blake said: ''...to see the world in a grain of sand and heaven in a wild flower.''

If we are indeed masters of our own imaginations, feelings and perceptions then why would we not want to have the best that we could possible imagine - to experience absolute beauty without fear. Or even more why would we not be temped to explore the imagination that created the beauty that is all around us. That's true religion. There is no room for silly imaginings when the reality which is staring us in the face is so much more awesomely beautiful than anything that we could ever imagine.

It was because our imaginations were stimulated that we were all drawn to Maharaj Jism. He still succeeds in stirring the imaginations of thousands of Indians but has failed to stoke up much enthusiasm in the west for over 15 years. People here still prefer dead masters such as Jesus and Elvis. Living masters are not for democratic individualists. And the Church of Elan Vital is boring.


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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 00:12:12 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I don't meditate now.
Message:
When I stopped meditating (I thought it odd that the Cap'n started saying Knowledge was NOT meditation) in about 1988, I went cold turkey (cold swan?) for maybe 7 years. I've told this story before but briefly, at a meditation retreat in 1986, Maharaji said something to the effect 'well you don't HAVE TO practice Knowledge, you know'. It may have been an arrogant remark but I took it to heart and stopped. I may be one of the few people that M inadvertantly deprogrammed.

When I started meditating again it was after learning a mindfulness meditation from a Burmese Buddhist teacher wherein one simply observes the mind. The process is basically following your breath while saying to yourself 'breathing, breathing' and as soon as you notice you are no longer following your breath you say to yourself 'thinking, thinking' and bring that back to 'breathing, breathing'. What the practice did was allow my mind to be as willfull as it wanted but use the focusing power of the mind to follow the breath and just simply be. Alternatively you could do walking meditation and say 'walking, walking' and so on. I found the results to be calming and exhilarating at once. I haven't done that practice for several years now due to inertia.

I mostly garden now and find it very fulfilling.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 03:24:56 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Postie, gardening is my other favorite kriya
Message:
and walking the dogs on the beach and listening to wonderful music. Some relax, some focus and some exhilirate. No wonder the poets of ELK are so piss-poor. The only meditation that thye ever do is ''practice K.'' How dull.

Vegetables or ornamentals?

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 03:58:41 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Both vegetables and ornamentals
Message:
Just put in some landscape plants today, ornamental grasses, kinick-kinick, New Zealand Flax and such. The vegetable garden needs attention but will keep for now. And it's there when I want to do that Zen gardening thing or just work like a mule.

BTW: I think the concept of satsang, service and meditation when practiced in integrity, can work pretty well as a balanced combination. Company of truth is powerful when it does happen for real and it has for me in and out of 'the Maharaji community' as I call it. Doing karma yoga, intentional selfless action, whatever, is meaningful and I still do pro bono projects when I feel it's worth my effort and when humanity is served. And meditation can balance the other two by just be still enough to receive inspiration. A mind - body - heart combination. From what I've heard lately there's only one person talking at events - no empowerment for the individual. And absolutely no way of expressing anything, either intellectually or physically. A one legged stool can't stand.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 16:58:54 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Katie and Conlon
Subject: Katie / Conlon great book for meditative gardeners
Message:
'Soul Gardening' by Terry Hershey is a lot about gardening but more about what you are actually doing for your 'soul' in the process of gardening. Gardening humour mixed with philosophy. He is an American - former priest or minister who now is an English Cottage Garden fanatic.
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 08:57:35 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Satsang was stopped because it was democratic
Message:
and does not fit in with a megalomaniacal messiah ambition. I'm just about to post page one of a few pages that I am writing about demystifying Maharaj Jism and yoga. I'll put it in this thread.

Since we had a drought here in the eighties I have decided to let my garden go xerophytic. The soil is very sandy out here near the beach and the fog makes it too cool for most of the really lush ornamentals. The quick draining sand and fog suit native California plants and those from the western Cape of Good Hope so I've got a lot of South African succulents and deciduous lilies which are dormant throughout the summer drought and we are just embarking on proteas. Gave up vegetables for lack of time. The only thing I ever water are the three new trees we put in last year. But, of course the weeding never stops. I think of meditation as weeding.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:16:55 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: all
Subject: PS That is Meditation sans Maharaj Jism
Message:
I need to add this. I do not consent to agree to use the word ''Knowledge'' to describe my consciousness. You may call yours whatever you wish but it is not a word that means much more to me than a cult brainwashing word. It has cheapened something which I prefer to keep clean and uncluttered with cliched concepts. The biggest concept we were ever sold was the indigestible sound-bite ''Knowledge.''

Recently Charles said that the only paranoia that he has about Forum Five is that Elan Vital spin doctors are reading it and using all our good ideas to tweak the urug's message and image.

I have stopped myself writing certain things here about meditation, not only because I am at a loss for words (English ones - there are plenty of sanskrit words whose meanings are quite malleable) but because I do not want to associate what I get out of it with Maharaj Jism and I do not want to give him any ideas for how to present his spchiel in the west in a less hyperbolical and more honest way.

The EV monitors may well be doing market research on how to make the urug more appealing to relatively highly educated westerners.

As far as I am concerned an urug has no appeal whatsoever. Not only is the Master concept undemocratic and therefore unsustainable in an fairly egalitarian society but it is also antithetical to all that western civilization stands for - personal power, freedom of choice, individual sovereignty, democratic dissension and debate and most importantly, strength of character.

And the new non-cult church of EV still stinks to high heaven.

Perhaps the meek shall inherit the earth but not in my life-time.

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 04:01:42 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: How does one attain Meekhood?
Message:
perhaps 'meek' was a translation error?
How does one attain meekhood? Ifigure groveling at the alter of the guru MUST qualify as meek in someones definition. Who said that anyway? Is that another Yeshua/jesus line?
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 09:08:00 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: How does one attain Meekhood? Bill-grovel
Message:
at the feet of the master. Yep, Joshua Bar Joseph said that. But I think not only the meek inherit the earth - we all do once we are six foot under. Might as well have some fun before that happens.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 17:34:32 (GMT)
From: bill--You answered it!
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I cant believe it. well, mystery solved...nt
Message:
sdh
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 00:29:50 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Poll: Meditation - who, how, why and what?
Message:
Call me a hedonist, but I meditate 'cuz it feels so good. And, with a couple of exceptions (see below), most of the things I've done for pleasure over the years have been ultimately detrimental to body, mind and spirit. The bodymind rush of a good zafu session, the thrill of playing jazz onstage, the ecstasy of a roll on the futon with my wife...these are a few of my favorite things, as Coltrane put it, and I'm going to enjoy my last few decades on this wonderful fucking planet!

I have opinions about the cosmic and temporal benefits of meditation, but, if meditation has taught me anything, it's that reality is not overmuch affected by my opinions.

(To categorize my practice: mostly Tantric, energy flow kinda stuff. A mish-mash of Tibetan/Chinese influences, taught by a teacher in Taos.)

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 00:34:55 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Gregg, hedonism, pleasure, tantric yoga
Message:
I get more out of tantric sex set to the tune of Coltrane's tenor sax ragas than I ever did out of darshan. I also prefer good food and fine wines to anything ever dished up by the urug.
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:54:17 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Bye Pat. Your alright.(nt)
Message:
uuuu
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 16:04:13 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Bye Pat. Your alright. Ditto! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 21:34:57 (GMT)
From: Ebay Alert
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Life Magazine with photo of M......
Message:
fantasizing that he is pissing on his devotees. Current price is $2.00. Don't know why anyone would want it, but if you do, here it is: Maharaji Pissing on Followers
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 15:28:03 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Ebay Alert: Lord Maharaji's cigarrette butts
Message:
I know OUR LORD MAHARAJI'S secret area in Amaroo where he goes to smoke HIS CIGARETTES out of sight of HIS adoring followers.

This April, I intend to sneak past HIS DAMN GESTAPO/Security Forces and collect some of HIS BUTTS...I figure when I get back and auction THEM on Ebay, I'll more than pay for my trip to see HIM and hopefully kiss HIS FEETS !!

I hope you ex-premies noticed OUR LORD will now be serving alcoholic beverages to HIS guests there......beer, wine and feet kissing...I'm in heaven !!!!

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 17:40:33 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bad Side Effect of Forum V
Message:
I had another dream last night which featured Maharaji in it, that's two in the last week. We used to call them 'darshan dreams', implying that the Lord had visited you on the subconscious level and given you personal darshan. I wouldn't dignify it with that term now.

After leaving I had these dreams regularly (maybe once every few months) for many years, much more often than when I was an actual premie, but they gradually tapered off to where I almost never have them anymore. But since reading/posting on the Forum these past few months, they seem to have started up again.

This is a major undesirable side effect of the Forum for me -- I definitely do not want this creep insinuating himself into my consciousness in any way, especially when I sleep. While I REALLY enjoy this incredibly intelligent, articulate and fun bunch of ex-premies, and the great chat that goes on here, I really do not want M back in my life again. It's taken me almost 20 years to get him out!

And I'd like to take issue with that stupid fear-mongering comment he once made (I can't remember where) about how he never loses a devotee. Bullshit. It's only because *I* have chosen to read the Forum lately that his stupid ugly mug has shown up in my consciousness again. I'm particularly disturbed by seeing the photos of him. It's easier to talk about him in the abstract than see those photos, for some reason.

Anyhow, just some ramblings from a post-darshan-dream morning. . .

Joy

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 17:27:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Hi Joy
Message:
I'm about to send you an email, but I wanted to say something about this.

I don't really remember having 'darshan dreams.' Maybe I did, but they must have been pretty uneventful, but I recall people talking about them, and I was never sure how much stock to put in it. I never really believed in the 'Maharaji comes to you in dreams' stuff, even during my most fanatical cult days.

But, a couple of years ago, when I started talking about the cult and my premie past again, after not doing so for a long time, I did have a couple of 'darshan nightmares.' They usually centered around being back in the cult, listening to Maharaji's boring, and threatening tirades, and feeling trapped, like I couldn't get out -- like being in a concentration camp, or a prison or something. They were the kind of dreams that you like to wake up from. Then, I had a couple of innocuous dreams that Maharaji and premies were in. Just dreams. Just thinking while I was asleep.

Here's what I think. Whatever you are involved in, focusing on, thinking about, you might dream about, because I think dreaming is just kind of more unfettered thinking, maybe more emotional. I do believe that things can get worked out in dreaming, but I don't believe in analyzing them. So, I don't know why a dream like that would bug you.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 23:21:08 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: I had an 'ex-premie' dream last night
Message:
Last night I dreamed that I had gone to England and somehow stumbled on satsang (old-style - premies giving it). The premies didn't know I was an ex-premie, and invited me to give satsang. I gave an absolutely brilliant subversive satsang, fooling all of them until the last minute, into thinking I was praising 'him.' I told the whole thing to my husband when I woke up, and he was quite impressed. It was in whole sentences! I've forgotten most of it, but here's a highlight:

'You should really listen to Maharaji when he tells you to stop having all these concepts. Who needs concepts anyway! Especially ridiculous concepts like the idea that you should give up your power to an outside source and stop trusting your own inner knowing!'

Hehehehe, that got 'em!

Love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 23:35:43 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Great 'ex-premie' dream Disculta
Message:
But, were you an ex-premie dreaming you were an ex-premie or were you an ex-premie dreaming you were an ex-premie?
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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 23:51:18 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Er... let me eat snot and get back to you... nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:24:01 (GMT)
From: DREAMER
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: In one he was a clown
Message:
I interpret my dream as being the 'real all knowing me' knowing the real maharaji. I was in an airport waiting for him with other premies and he stepped out of a comercial plane dressed up with this brillant red sequence suit and yellow pants. His hair looked tinted, it probably is, and it was all messesd up, like he has just awaken. He was just a clown looking guy.

he took out time and money but that is all what he is: A CLOWN.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 19:04:27 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: DREAMER
Subject: powerful archetype there, DREAMER
Message:
wish I could find some material on the web that illustrates the potential interpretations of the clown-trickster archetype.

There's a dark side to the clown figure. Often implying us making a fool of ourselves (or being made a fool of) but learning something valuable in the process or as a consequence.

Any one out there got some info on the dream-symbolism of the Clown/Harlequin figures?

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 08:51:27 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: let me go check my dream dictionary-brb...
Message:
i have one online to refer to.
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:21:33 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: try this site for dream analysis..
Message:
Dream Centralthe url is http://www.sleeps.com/dreams.html
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:30:19 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: here's another one to try for dreams
Message:
url is http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/1219/symbols.htmlhotlink to the page is Universal Dream Symbols
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 14:32:53 (GMT)
From: romilar
Email: nun
To: janet
Subject: let me go check my dream dictionary-brb...
Message:
george washington told me in a dream to stop using the alias
romilar and to run for president in the next elections,epo
would support my candicacy as george washington II
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:32:09 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: romilar
Subject: take your haldol and go to group rocky..nt
Message:
do it
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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 13:51:32 (GMT)
From: george washington II
Email: nun
To: janet
Subject: take your haldol and go to group rocky..nt
Message:
never took any haldol and never will,
when was the last time you got laid?
forum is also an addiction, ya know...
get into some good music, i recommend:
rich hopkins &luminarios from tuscon, az
www.sanjacintorecords.com
i wish you well, janet.....
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:55:49 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Bye cq. take it easy.(nt)
Message:
iiiii
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:48:40 (GMT)
From: dreamer
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Good observation (nt)
Message:
yeap
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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:11:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: he did program fear into us
Message:
I was quite frightenend when I first started posting. I'm not sure what I thought would happen but there was this free floating anxiety about it.

Look on the bright side Joy, you haven't started dreaming about forum participants yet :)

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:05:58 (GMT)
From: Sigmund Postie
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: And vat vas he do-ink in your dreamz?
Message:
Joy,

What was M doing in your dream? What were you doing? That might be revealing as well. You don't need to share that here but it might help you to think about it. Also, did you wake up freaked out, angry or with a sense of well being?

He is NOT insinuating himself into your dreams. YOU are dreaming and M' image may be there representing something or someone. Just a character in the cartoon. But still, it is YOUR subconcious. I know that even after these years have gone by, It feels good to dream about M - he shows up once in a great while. I assume it has to do with what he represented in the early days - absolute certainty that I was connected to a conscious universe. But still, it is ME dreaming - he has zero to do with it. My subconscious has chosen that particular image to flesh out the scene. It could just as well be eagles or whatever.

One way I use to understand dreams is to ask 'what does the nun in the bikini represent?' Or whatever (Just an example, I absolutely never dream about bikini-clad nuns. Not even on bearskin rugs in front of a fire with... oh never mind.)

Sigmund Postie

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 20:58:54 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Sigmund P.
Subject: Nothing X-Rated, Postie
Message:
I've never had *that* type of dream with M in it, thank goodness. Yes, I realize it is me and not him who is producing the image. I'm just not happy that I'm producing it, I would prefer my consciousness totally Maharaji free if I can help it. But I guess, as I said, it's just a byproduct of Forum participation. Whether you like it or not, coming here does put your conscious mind on M for awhile each day, if even in a negative way.

But let's see, what was he doing. Just staring at me, really intently. Not much more. When I first had these intense M-dreams after leaving I used to chuckle and think how much I would have liked it had they happened when I was still a premie. To have darshan dreams was actually considered a great grace. But they only really started after I left.

For years after I first left I had dreams about trying to get a front row or close up seat at programs, the mad scramble that usually occurred, that sort of frenzied competition to get close. And I also had dreams after I left that I was still stuck in the ashram and couldn't get out even though I knew I no longer practiced or was a premie, but somehow was trapped there. I still get those occasionally.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 21:13:11 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Nothing X-Rated, Joy
Message:
Impossible to find the man sexy. I tried for years because the other fags would say they wanted to be fucked by him and the moment that I imagined him while masturbating I would loose my erection. How the hell did those blondes do it? Yuk. Must have been date rape with GHB.

I used to have lots of darshan dreams that would leave me feeling very sentimental but they stopped about ten years ago for some reason. Probably to do with my growing conviction that he was not the big cheese.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 15:07:25 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: My Field Trip
Message:
I went to the place of the satellite event yesterday. I got there a few minutes before the end so I didn't have the opportunity to subject myself to the agony of watching even one second of the video.

I went to see acquaintances (someone chastened me recently for using the word 'friend' too loosely).

I spoke to people for a while afterwords and took notes as I noticed once again that my pwk (people with knowledge) acquaintances were different from my other acquaintances.

The sad reality is that I feel closer to many people I have met this year than to many of these people with knowledge that I have known for up to 14 years.

I've tried to find adjectives to describe the people that I talked to after the video. Here's what I've come out with:

Distant
Aloof
Reserved
Dissociated
Disinterested/Uninterested
Hoity-toity
Self-important
Arrogant
Dazed
Spaced-out

Not a happy picture.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 04:32:34 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Steve, I like your observations
Message:
Steve, this observation and your last one (oops, I forgot the topic) have been very good in describing what I too have felt.

I left the cult only a few years ago and your descriptions of the premies and the premie community sure rings a bell with me.

Keep 'em coming!

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 13:29:45 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Thanks For The Encouragement
Message:
I was wondering - you know I take words and their effects very seriously - growing up with a name like eDrek - you must have been teased a lot. Wasn't it traumatic? Did you get professional help to deal with the scars?

Steve

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:30:26 (GMT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: My Field Trip
Message:
Well Steve, they sound like normal self adjusted North Americans.
How would you describe yourself-in anobjective manner naturally.
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 22:28:21 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Knowing you're widely read Cat'
Message:
...I wondered if you'd read Michael Dettmers posts, and if his revelations had changed your view on the 'Perfect Master of Our Time.'

Anth the scratched perspex

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Date: Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:18:00 (GMT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Knowing you're widely read Cat'
Message:
Never impressed with Dettmers. Has always been deluded regarding his own self importance. As well I think he has more than a couple of his own skeletons rattling in the cupboard.
Second point Anth - does the term 'semantics ' mean anything to you? Give the propaganda machine a rest Anth. It's so boringly predictable.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:26:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Can you do anything but sneer, Cat?
Message:
Really, I hardly ever say this but you do invite the question: who stole your puppy, little boy? Or, more to the point, did Knowledge make you such an asshole? You are the ugliest person I've ever seen here. Got that, dude? Ugly! All you have is rancour. It's not even focussed on anything. It's just a foul spray every time you type something.

Now, go on, talk about how rich it is that the 'asshole of all assholes' is giving you a hard time. But, Cat, even you have to admit that I can laugh a bit here. Laugh, talk seriously, I've got a few different positions. You, though, you're just this fixed jerk. Do you have friends? What are they like? Are they creeps like you?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 06:54:24 (GMT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Pot calling the Kettle ...Black
Message:
Abuse. You don't fool anyone Jim. Abuse......
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 02:43:25 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: I think Anth has got a legitimate ? there Cat
Message:
How do the recent revelations about M affect you and your take on K? I'd personally like to know.

It's good to have you back by the way. Just behave yourself, and they'll let you stick around. Hey, works for me.

Dog

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 07:26:53 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I think Anth has got a legitimate ? there Cat
Message:
You might say I have sufficient insight to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff.Mr Dettmers? Ask him about his own skeletons.He developed some very interesting takes on things to suit his own purposes.
As for M? What's the problem? I'm not the least bit religious. So what are we freaking about? India - dubious and somewhat the norm for the sub-continent
Booze? You'd be pissed constantly having Dettmers around!
Peter Frampton? Hell that shocked me- such bad taste.
The Yacht? Couldn't care less
The Plane? Fine by me -I dont want one.
Blondes? Good story but...it's personal...Brunettes can be fun.
Anything else I should be losing sleep over?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 11:06:41 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Do you believe the blondes had a free choice?
Message:
Using a position of authority to obtain sex is pretty close to rape. Why would you respect a rapist?

BTW, do you ever give him or EV money?

John.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:30:29 (GMT)
From: Cw
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Do you believe the blondes had a free choice?
Message:
Are you serious?Are you really serious?Please..I can deal with all manner of things but really ,you are being pathetic.
Did you ever think of applying for the job of lunch room monitor.
Blondes ? rape? Money? OHHHH MYYYY GGGOOOOODDD !!!!!!!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 16:39:14 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Cw
Subject: I'm deadly serious - Maharaji is a Rapist
Message:

In a workplace when a senior male manager makes advances towards a junior female member of staff, it places the junior in a very difficult situation. Assuming she doesn't particularly fancy him, she has a difficult choice - refuse and damage her career, or accept, and do something she doesn't want to do.

Now change the senior manager for the Superior Power in Person (SPIP), and the junior employee by the SPIP's devotee. It's not just her career that she damages by refusing, she would risking her entire future. You just don't say no to the SPIP.

If he really is the SPIP, then fine.

If he's not, it's rape.

So, Cat, which is it from where you sit?

John.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 02:04:12 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Victoria Bitters
Subject: My Field Trip
Message:
Not in my part of North America.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:01:04 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: My Field Trip II
Message:
I particulary like the work 'hoity-toity' to describe the pwk's. I don't use it normally but I looked it up on a hunch. From Encarta:

hoi·ty-toi·ty [hòytee tóytee ] adjective

1. self-important: arrogant and self-important (informal disapproving)

2. frivolous: silly, giddy, or frivolous We were confronted by giggling, hoity-toity nonsense.

Last time I used the adjectives 'silly' and 'arrogant', and I was surprised to find a definition which encompasses both observations.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:07:37 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I Asked People If They Were Going To Amaroo
Message:
Of my three closest hard-cord pwk friends who were there, two said it was 'too expensive' and one said 'I have the money but I don't know if I can get the time off work'. Yeah.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 21:32:27 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I Asked People If They Were Going To Amaroo
Message:
I suspect that the law of diminishing returns may apply here. It's a long, long way for most of the premies to travel and only the most die-hard cult members would go there a second time especially since it is so expensive and from what I gather-not all that comfortable there.
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 04:39:44 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: JTF
Subject: M has put all his eggs in one basket - Amaroo
Message:
When I left the cult a few years ago I was faced with the possibility of my first trip to Amaroo. However, I had just been to a rather disappointing let-down event at Long Beach that I found it extremely difficult to justify spending thousands of dollars. So, instead of going to Amaroo I left the cult.

You have to believe that Maharaji might have painted himself into some far off corner of the world with his Amaroo. Lots of money and effort has gone into it. Nothing much is happening elsewhere in terms of his appearances in the West (Europe or the U.S.) other than quick one day events. In fact, he might even be holding back on multi-day events to try to milk the 'thirst' to get people to commit to a trip to Mecca, Amaroo and pay the gift tax.

I'm wondering if all of this Amaroo will backfire and bring and end to the cult sooner than later.

And maybe they should call Amaroo Waterloo instead.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 09:40:58 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: it may well be his 'Journey's end'.....snicker
Message:
i'll bet when he named it that, he wasnt thinking of it being the end of his journey.
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 15:29:42 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: janet-very insightful,it may come to pass..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 21:53:32 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: JTF
Subject: Something's Gotta Give
Message:
I only spoke to a few people, but one or two did add that they were 'waiting and hoping' for an announcement of the maha coming to a closer location. There was no joy or happiness or normality when they said this. Really it was like listening to a parrot reciting what I've hear from this group over and over and over ad nauseum over the years. Hope upon hope.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 22:17:14 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Your description of the PWKs is on the nose
Message:
They are infantile, solipsistic and many actually seem to have serious mental problems. But they are on the whole nice people if a bit like Ken and Barbie.
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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 02:48:43 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Your description of the PWKs is on the nose
Message:
From Encarta:

sol·ip·sism [sóllp sìzzm , sáwl sìzzm ] noun

belief in self as only reality: the belief that the only thing somebody can be sure of is that he or she exists, and that true knowledge of anything else is impossible

[Late 19th century. Formed from Latin solus 'alone' + ipse 'self.']

'The only thing that exists is the breath'. I guess that's the kind of statement that leads to solipsism. Ironic, isn't it, that the 'knowledge of all knowledges' can in the end only teach you the most trivial things. It's 180 degrees opposite to what it set out to be.

Steve

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