Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:45:51 (GMT)
From: Mar 03, 2001 To: Mar 15, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


salam -:- anyone heared of: The Knowledge Process Team -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 06:14:17 (GMT)
__ Thelma the Church Lady -:- The Knowledge Process Team are the highly -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:47:34 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Oooh yes, yes, give it to me, yes, yes -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 11:51:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Auto-Knowledge Swat Teams -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:04:24 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- will that chip pass airport security sweeps? -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 08:43:48 (GMT)

Elan Vital -:- Maharaji's Predictions -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 04:32:41 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- I read this one last night and cracked up too -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:57:55 (GMT)

Elan Vital -:- Reponse to 'Kelly' -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 21:13:20 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- My never been a premie husband's reaction- -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:52:44 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- My never been a premie husband's reaction-Mine too -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:28:03 (GMT)
__ janet -:- it was a most disarming question, darlings -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:13:52 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- LOL LOL LOL (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 00:22:14 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- Knowledge TM -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:27:12 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- Knowledge™- TM™: i did both. both stupid. -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:16:55 (GMT)
__ __ Millbank, Weiss -:- Knowledge TM -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:31:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- What about TM TM? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:07:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Atticus Finch -:- It's Millbank Tweed -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:06:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- Hi, Bob! Remember the ol' L-1 class days? I do.(nt -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:00:34 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- r.e. inner light and sound: A Farewell to Arms (nt -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:02:17 (GMT)
__ __ Elan Vital -:- We at Elan Vital are not amused (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:34:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- when are you ever? vacation in arizona--- -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:21:01 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- EV How come you're so unsynchronised ? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 21:54:16 (GMT)
__ __ Elan Vital -:- Elan Vital tries harder to be synchronized -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:22:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Quite some time now (LOL) nt -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:59:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- do or do not-there is no try--my master YODA -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:24:06 (GMT)
__ premieji -:- Reponse to E.V. (spanish) -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 21:28:57 (GMT)
__ __ Elan Vital -:- Hindu concepts -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:55:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ premie ji -:- Hindu concepts (spanish) -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 10:20:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elan Vital -:- Referral and Participation Opportunity -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 00:08:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- hey É-V! if youre so synchronized, how come -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:29:44 (GMT)

Joe -:- M. Dettmers -- too important not to be up top -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 18:12:44 (GMT)
__ QuietGuy -:- Riddle me this, Mr. Dettmers -:- Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 02:27:16 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Anger and hate ????? -:- Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 19:48:23 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Michael's post is neither anger nor hate -:- Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 06:15:41 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Riddle me this, Mr. Dettmers -:- Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 04:10:49 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- You can answer that yourself, premie-ji -:- Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 03:29:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ QuietGuy -:- doesn't answer the question -:- Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 00:36:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- If I understand you, Mr. QuietGuy -:- Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 13:16:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Quiet Guy:reasons why personal stuff is important. -:- Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 03:04:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks, LAX. You said it all -:- Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 04:21:35 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Thanks Joe and Michael D. -:- Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 00:25:25 (GMT)
__ janet -:- M. Dettmers -- wait a minute--look at the timeline -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:51:41 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Maybe -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 10:31:21 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Thanks, Joe. Amazing stuff. -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 18:35:34 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- on the verge of being honest -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:40:05 (GMT)
__ __ Charles S. -:- Amazing stuff, and sad... -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:42:56 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Good point,Gregg.The MRC letter... -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:08:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- I think we have to assume... -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:35:08 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Gregg - there was one -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:07:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- evolved -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 00:55:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tell Man -:- 'Too important etc.' -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:15:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Help me Tell Man. -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 10:56:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Thelma the Fat Fag -:- Tell Man, thanks for your concern -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:59:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tell Man -:- [edited by FA] -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:28:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- Alias -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:40:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- PS -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:57:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ michael donner -:- michael dettmers -:- Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 17:08:36 (GMT)

Way -:- To Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 16:40:01 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- To Patrick (formerly Anon) very OT -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 17:34:48 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick -:- replies -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 18:52:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Wow ot -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:31:56 (GMT)

la-ex -:- Michael Dettmers-Thanks, and a few ?'s... -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 15:55:07 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- A few answers -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 00:32:26 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks Michael, you're always so thorough and -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 02:29:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Don't worry. -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 03:27:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tell Man -:- Don't worry. -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:24:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Don't worry. -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 21:00:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- And what I find sad... -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 16:33:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- You're right Tell Man. -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 11:37:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Be happy -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:29:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma the Fat Fag -:- My god, you mean we all have to die one day? -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 08:01:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- yes dearie-even jesus died. no one gets out -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 08:46:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Michael, there have been some times lately -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 03:52:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- dual personality -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 00:01:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Dual personality and Capt Rawat's kids -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 01:08:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Good Point -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 15:18:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Michael, you hit the nail on the head -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:43:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- FA, please, pretty please, -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:50:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- FA, thanks, you're a good sport NT -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:37:22 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- To la-ex OT -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 17:58:32 (GMT)

ITMA -:- Propagation takes off -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 05:39:29 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- Help needed in Portland and Amaroo -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 19:47:30 (GMT)
__ __ Brian -:- Business Visa?!? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:17:11 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- So what have we here? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 10:47:35 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- My take -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 11:32:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- Filling empty seats -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 15:35:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Sounds like being forced to go to church -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 15:55:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- This is not a new thing -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:37:46 (GMT)
__ Curious George -:- Confirmation of dates -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 05:49:37 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Here's the Portland info -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 16:39:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- To Postie -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 16:50:27 (GMT)

Ulf -:- More tapes -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:23:28 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Sounds like a few real doozies -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:57:18 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- i have the entire set from both kissimmee 78 , 79 -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 22:25:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Anyone remember the 'killer' satsand in Kiss...? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 01:52:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- It was on monday--nt -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:41:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- Anyone remember the 'killer' satsang in Kiss...? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 03:23:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- Anyone remember the 'killer' satsang in Kiss...? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 12:15:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- hans jayanti 79--week of nov 9th- had to be -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 08:57:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Killer Satsang....it's started a beautiful day... -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 17:16:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Also, can a digitized audio tape be put on EPO? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 01:57:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I'm willing to transcribe the texts -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:11:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- I'm willing to transcribe the texts -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 21:53:19 (GMT)

Jim -:- You're next, Maharaji (Part 1) -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:14:13 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- You're next, Maharaji, Great information Jim -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 07:45:06 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- ***Y'ALL SHOULD READ -- AMAZING PARALLELS*** -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:43:48 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Yup... just change the names - so familiar nt -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 07:19:46 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You're next, Maharaji (Part 2) -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:14:43 (GMT)

Kelly -:- How do people without arms practice Knowledge? -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:12:39 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Answering your unsynchronized question -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 18:51:09 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- Joe. I'm not negative, I'm not anonymous,and I'm -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 21:40:24 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- When are EV,Pauline,TED,eDrek,E.Windsor,... -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:32:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Good question -- Janice is my favorite, btw -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:27:09 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- Just focus on the 'possibility' of arms. (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 15:41:36 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Just visualize arms for the possibility of K, NT -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:06:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- For vegans - Visualize Whirled Peas! (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:42:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Thelma the Church Lady -:- Whirled Peas and save the Wales with Sezyou NT -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 02:10:26 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Same as everyone else. -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 13:11:37 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- I just sent you 2 e-mails, one for each hand! nt -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 13:27:24 (GMT)
__ Aussi Ji -:- a stick of TNT could be the answer -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 12:04:44 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- How do you get a one armed Aussi out of a tree -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 12:18:55 (GMT)
__ swami suchabanana -:- you don't need the techs r.e. inner light, sound -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 09:52:17 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- Swami ji will you accept me as your disciple? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 13:34:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- no problem. I dub thee 'ToeJamanand'. Blessings: -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:35:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ToeJamanand -:- Where's your ashram? I want to dedicate my life nt -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 21:58:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- Directions to the temple: -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:48:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Toejamanand -:- Directions to the temple: I've found the way! -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:29:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- sorry,no money for shoes.Mishler,where my socks?nt -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:43:31 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- Now lets don't get up in arms about this minor -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 04:02:53 (GMT)
__ salam -:- How do people without arms practice Knowledge? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 02:35:54 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Maybe they just use their hands (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 22:21:01 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Or their feet (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 13:49:05 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- It's a joke! and I got it ! at last! LOL nt -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 08:41:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- You know sound of one gland crapping? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 10:15:47 (GMT)

jondon -:- And now there is one...... -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:18:28 (GMT)
__ Tell Man -:- And now there is one...... -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 06:53:07 (GMT)

Babs -:- Just Goofiness -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 02:55:00 (GMT)
__ janet -:- email me. where in denver r u? if i ever move back -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 08:51:23 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Jesus loves me two times twice -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 06:10:03 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- I liked that Babs , here's one 4U.. -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:28:32 (GMT)
__ __ Charles S. -:- You shoud check out the ''Jesus Dance'' page... -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 07:20:27 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- And another -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:38:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ aussi Ji -:- And another My Way(His Way) -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 07:04:45 (GMT)

Andie -:- Not For Everyone -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 00:32:25 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- Not For Everyone -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 15:06:01 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Andie: can you tell a forum from a soapbox? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 17:49:36 (GMT)
__ __ Andie -:- Andie: can you tell a forum from a soapbox? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:12:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Well done Andy. -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 14:00:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Your whole family sounds fucked -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:16:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi Andie, I was polite to you and not angry NT -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:10:13 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Prepare yourself for the worst Andie. -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 10:28:44 (GMT)
__ salam -:- not for anyone. -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 02:42:35 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Multi-alias posting: Andie = Sonofa -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:00:18 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Yes it is -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 15:06:20 (GMT)
__ __ Uncle Bryan -:- Re: Yes it is (sorry but OT.) -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 23:58:34 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Yes, Sir Dave - Hotmail is fucked, try Yahoo NT -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 18:43:03 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Hi Andy, don't take any notice of the nasty people -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 07:13:19 (GMT)
__ __ Andie -:- Hi Andy, don't take any notice of the nasty people -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:21:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi Andie, I honestly don't want to put you in the -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:46:10 (GMT)
__ janet -:- all the people who run the organization are -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:55:30 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- excellent work janet, Bravo! the real thing (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 03:39:35 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- Read Janet's post! Clarity,insight,truth. (nt -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 10:13:36 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- janet, you said a mouthful,girl. Bravo! nt -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:06:08 (GMT)
__ ITMA -:- You're as real as Elan Vital -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:16:21 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- You're as real as Guess who? -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:21:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ ITMA -:- I never touched her, your honour -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 00:13:47 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Andie = Sazyou = sonofa =... -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:00:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Andie -:- Andie = Sazyou = sonofa =... -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:29:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Thelma the Church Lady -:- Andie, we've also got friends, families and lives -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 02:55:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- you sure? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 02:52:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- no, you could be right (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 04:01:55 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- You're as real as Elan Vital -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:50:05 (GMT)

Rev John Hammond-Smyth -:- The Lord's flock now a has search engine -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 13:15:55 (GMT)

Suchabanana -:- AGYA's Role: From Adults to Mindless Infant Robots -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:45:08 (GMT)
__ such -:- To WAY: r.e. Patrick Halley -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:49:03 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Yes, I will pass your request on to PH. (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 18:47:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- Can Pat send a copy of the Police Report? (nt -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:37:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Please pass my best wishes to Pat H. -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 05:21:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Will do. (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 17:57:13 (GMT)

King Munmut -:- More 'active' then the Baldur's Gate Forum! -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:12:36 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 06:14:17 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: anyone heared of: The Knowledge Process Team
Message:
whatever it is, was signed to the end of an e-mail from EV.

hello EV, you gonna give me the kob or what? Anyway say hello to me buddies: The sybchronized ex-premie sites proof readers team.

So, you are the one with the Macs and NTs, hummmmmmmmm. (let me see, what was that thing I did the other day, oh yes, I uploaded that little deamon on an NT network which gave me a backdoor..........)

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:47:34 (GMT)
From: Thelma the Church Lady
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: The Knowledge Process Team are the highly
Message:
synchronized PWKs who participate in producing the sterilized, shrink-wrapped, pasteurized, precious, preparation-H ''Propagation Packages'' for the new auto-Knowledge assembly-line, conveyor-belt aspirants.

As each aspirant emerges from the auto-Knowledge session they are embedded with the new synchronized, pasteurized, sterilized SmartChip which is inserted under the skin between the eyebrows and will soon replace the SmartCard.

The Auto-Knowledge Processing Aspirant Assembly-line Conveyor-Belt Team is also used in producing sausages when there is a shortage of aspirants but can turn out 80,000 Indian aspirants in under two days with less than a ten percent factory-soiled product rate and are regarded as the finest team that Maharaji has ever assembled.

Thank you for your interest.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 11:51:50 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Thelma the Church Lady
Subject: Oooh yes, yes, give it to me, yes, yes
Message:
So that's what they are, like swat team or something?

Seeing that you have conections, is this auto-k something you can take home, like a video or something. Have they started selling 'them', just wondering, where can I get a copy of 'it'. I was thinking of making it into streaming video, how will their lawyers charge me, revealling secret info or standard copy right. By the way are those swat team the same that Aussieji was talking about coming downunder?

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:04:24 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Auto-Knowledge Swat Teams
Message:
Same teams, Salam. No, the DVD's are not available to all and are kept in a special safe in a Swiss Bank and guarded by two divine rottweilers with SmartChips embedded in their behinds.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 08:43:48 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Thelma the Church Lady
Subject: will that chip pass airport security sweeps?
Message:
if that sonofabitch works, i'll take one. beats poking my eyes out all night when i have insomnia
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 04:32:41 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's Predictions
Message:
TO: Synchronization Team
Revenue Enhancement Detachment

From: Linda Gross, President of Elan Vital

Date: March 1, 2001

SUBJECT: PROPAGATION UPDATE

It has come to our attention that there are 9 people in North America and Europe who are interested in hearing more about Knowledge. While this is an excellent start, and up nearly 75% from last year, Maharaji isn't getting any younger you know, and we have got to get this thing moving once and for all.

In a very inspiring and oh so beautiful meeting recently, Maharaji made a list of predictions of newspaper headlines in the year 2050. Maharaji believes that when people see his predictions come true, they will flock to him and beg him for Knowledge, due to his obvious powers of knowing all. Accordingly, following are Maharaji's predictions. Please transcribe them accurately, and use them for propagation purposes only:


Headlines from the year 2050 according to the Speaker:

Florida to Be Readmitted to Union

Plague of Spotted Owls Threaten Crops, Livestock

Texas Executes Last Remaining Citizen

Mother Monica Dies: Revered Hero of Bangkok Slums
Overcame Lurid Past With US President

Construction Begins On Grenada War Memorial In D.C.

Baltimore Rams Defeat St. Louis Ravens

Pope Phil II Settles Custody Battle With Ex-Wife

Upcoming NFL Draft Likely to Focus On Mutants

Younger Generation's Music Provokes Outrage of Elders

D.C. Zoo to Receive Rare Cow

Authentic Year 2000 Chad Sells For $6.9 Million at Sotheby's

Court Clears
AOLTimeWarnerGE-DisneyCiscoFordRJR-NabiscoExxon-Mobil
of Monopoly Charges

50-Year Study: Diet and Exercise Key to Weight Loss

It Wasn't the Cigarettes - It Was the Ashtrays

77 Years After Millennium: Whatever Happened to Maharaji?

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:57:55 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: I read this one last night and cracked up too
Message:
Sorry I forgot to post my appreciation ( gag )

Well done EV.....you and the Sopranos...two things I can count on in life to crack me up!

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 21:13:20 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Reponse to 'Kelly'
Message:
Dear Kelly,

Elan Vital has taken notice of your incredibly stupid question about practicing Knowledge(TM) without arms, amid your otherwise vile, vicious, unsubstantiated, confused and, of course anonymous, comments on the internet, which both Maharaji and Elan Vital have had to endure, in a fashion that rivals the Christian martyrs, from negative people like you on the internet.

Elan Vital does not know the answer to your question, but Elan Vital will say that we think Maharaji has said on serveral occasions, when he has had the chance in between not claiming to be God, that just like it is all right to be a multi-billionaire and still have the experience of Knowledge(TM), arms are unnecessary to have the experience of something that is internal and not subject to outside manipulations. Technique Number One(TM) (formerly known, in the terrible, ancient Hindu period, as 'light technique'(TM)), can easily be acheived by running two or three times at full speed, head first, into a brick wall. Arms are unnecessary, and in this case, actually can get in the way.

Elan Vital, in a blissful example of extreme synchronicity, also realizes that the same method can be utilized for Technique Number Two(TM), only Elan Vital believes Maharaji suggests hitting the side, instead of the front of the head, to create the celestial music. Techniques 3(TM) and 4(TM) do not require arms, due to the supreme kindness of Maharaji, and his love and care for his devotees and their cranial areas.

However, Elan Vital and Maharaji are most concerned with armless PWKs and their inability to complete and sign checks. Although this was particularly a problem in the past, during the period of DRUG CULTURE, now, Elan Vital strongly encourages donations by credit card debit to avoid any problems resulting from the lack of arms.

We hope this answers your confused questions.

Sincerely and in synchronization,

Elan Vital

ELAN VITAL: ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971, AND NOT HARBORING CHILD MOLESTERS SINCE MID-2000!

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:52:44 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: My never been a premie husband's reaction-
Message:
I read him this outstanding EV parody last night-

even someone who was never in the cult cracked up-

but then he asked me, over and over, how could anyone that is bright enough to write like this, how could so many people who are so obviously bright ( I read him really good posts from time to time ) have fallen for this BS. He asked this as I was explaining these jokes by doing demos of light and music, I mean, it does come off as rather assinine. Anyway EV satirist, you have many fans, one of whom just cannot deal with the idea that anyone as bright as you are could have ever really believed this BS...

um...

but what does that mean he thinks about my brain power?

hmmmmm....

oh yeah, he gave me a buy I was 13.

( and to all my fellow ex's, we all know plenty of really bright people fell for it, but it is hard to explain to an outsider why this did not appeal only to the intellectually challenged)

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:28:03 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Susan and EV
Subject: My never been a premie husband's reaction-Mine too
Message:
I had printed it out and left it on the kitchen table last night, he came upstairs with it in his hand absolutely cracking up!! He has suffered with me, with patience and understanding through my awakening, it has been almost more difficult than my previous involvement, when I was putting on the spin, now I'm being completely honest...it's much harder!
But, he's an intelligent man, and he's been very impressed with some of the stuff I'm pulling out of this site and the associated links. The truth has set us free!
Kelly
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:13:52 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: it was a most disarming question, darlings
Message:
and like vishnu, four warned is four-armed
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 00:22:14 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: LOL LOL LOL (nt)
Message:
LOL
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:27:12 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Knowledge TM
Message:
When I got up off the floor whare I had been rolling around laughing, and dried the copious tears of laughter from my eyes,
I realised, with horror that you seem to be implying that knowledge and TM are one and the same.

Could this possibly be true? Is it possible that all techniques of meditation have the same effect, and make you calm and peaceful and put you in touch with your inner self?

Shurely shome mishtake?
Kelly

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:16:55 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Knowledge™- TM™: i did both. both stupid.
Message:
trademark. interesting word. built on 'trade' and 'mark'.

in the carnie trade, a mark is a chump, targeted to be conned out of their money. the trade is, you give us your money and we fool you . we leave richer, you leave wiser.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:31:31 (GMT)
From: Millbank, Weiss
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Knowledge TM
Message:
Kelly,

It has come to my attention that you do not recognize the term 'TM' and we strongly believe that your failure to do so will be at your peril. 'TM' stands for 'TRADEMARK' indicating that all words with that designation, are considered property of Elan Vital, and any unauthorized use, duplication, ursupation, infringement, tampering, representation or misrepresentation of those trademarks, will subject you and others to civil persecution, er, prosecution. If that happens, you will likely get a letter from our law firm, one of the biggest and most expensive in the world, and we doubt you will be laughing then.

Very truly yours,

Robert A. Jacobs, Esq.
Millbank, Weiss, et al.
New York, NY USA

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:07:56 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Millbank, Weiss
Subject: What about TM TM?
Message:
Robert A Jacobs Esq.
TM Tm Tem Temp Tempty, Empty threats!

You don't have a leg to stand on. Anyway you wouldn't dare take me on, because I have the sleek, dynamic,jet setting, fabulous, world famed, lawyer...Marianne .on my team.

So get lost punks!
Yours fatefully
Kelly

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:06:23 (GMT)
From: Atticus Finch
Email: None
To: All
Subject: It's Millbank Tweed
Message:
You lawyers must have lost some of your marbles if you can't remember the name of your own firm.
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:00:34 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Robert J.
Subject: Hi, Bob! Remember the ol' L-1 class days? I do.(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:02:17 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: r.e. inner light and sound: A Farewell to Arms (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:34:43 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: We at Elan Vital are not amused (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:21:01 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: when are you ever? vacation in arizona---
Message:
you've lost ya sense 'a Yuma
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 21:54:16 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: no way jose
To: Elan Vital
Subject: EV How come you're so unsynchronised ?
Message:
I've just taken hours to reply to your PR representative, somebody called Joe, in a thread below..and I can tell you it's not easy with two fingers.
Kelly
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:22:10 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Elan Vital tries harder to be synchronized
Message:
Kelly,

Elan Vital has no knowledge of unsynchronized people who might be writing posts and usuing our name, who, if discovered by our lawyers, may have to endure a stern letter from Milbank, Weiss.

Elan Vital is not surprised though, because that kind of thing appears to go on in the pit of negativity known as EOP, on a regular basis. Perhaps you are a victim of your own hateful, spite against innocent people at Elan Vital who are just trying to do their jobs better.

In our continuing effort to distinguish Elan Vital from a cult, which it is not, we want to report that the email to the Elan Vital website can be broken down as follows, which will be very helpful to see how people react to Maharaji and knowledge:

Compliments: 5%
Inquiries about knowledge: 5%
Inquiries about events to which Maharaji has been invited: 3%
Unsolicited poetry: 10%
Unsolicited poetry from Janice Wilson: 9.9%
Spam: 17%
Comments: 70%

Also, as an update to our finances, we take in money which is donated freely from our non-member, non-cult, supporters and we spend all the money, every cent, on completely wholesome things completely in line with our purpose, which can be obtained only by suing us in a Court of Law and having a judge order us to produce it for view for 15-minutes every 10 years in our offices at a undisclosed location, someplace in the world. As our website clearly shows, the two bar-charts showing in-flow and out-flow of money are synchronized exactly.

Elan Vital has a policy about all of this, which is very clearly stated, and if Elan Vital was a cult, it probably wouldn't do that, which is yet another reason Elan Vital is not a cult, besides the indisputable fact that we have a policy against being a cult, and have had one for a while now.

We at Elan Vital are so synchronized we can hardly stand it.

Sincerely and in synchronization,

ELAN VITAL: Not A Cult/Not A Sanctuary for Child Molestation for Quite Some Time Now

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:59:54 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Quite some time now (LOL) nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:24:06 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: do or do not-there is no try--my master YODA
Message:
i feel a great disturbance in the Force.
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 21:28:57 (GMT)
From: premieji
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Reponse to E.V. (spanish)
Message:
También se decía que funcionaran las técnicas del Knowledge era
debido a la gracia de M. Y que una sesión de Knowledge era imposible por video-tape. In: Who is Guru Maharaj ji?
¿Acaso en DVD sí, porque es mejor que Videotape? Hahahahaha
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:55:45 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: premieji
Subject: Hindu concepts
Message:
Dear premieji:

In response to your snide question and comment, Elan Vital believes you should get with the program and get rid of your Hindu concepts. And for your information, DVD is the most advanced form of electronic imaging, much more advaned that videotape. Maharaji, due to his tireless dedication to synchronized effort to use the latest technology for his avocation to be a Master(TM) of Knowledge(TM) for the entire world, while at the same time not being God, is commited to using Auto-Knowledge(TM) via DVD, to really this time, for sure, latest and last phase, gonna do it this time, make Knowledge(TM), as well as bone china tea cups and $600 watches that remind people ot breathe, available to all the poor, wretched, suffering, confused, ignorant people of the world.

In Synchronicity

Elan Vital: NO CHILD MOLESTORS ANYMORE

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 10:20:46 (GMT)
From: premie ji
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: Hindu concepts (spanish)
Message:
Hace unos años, antes de la aparición del DVD exitía el Video (VHS) ¿Por qué no se hizo? ¿Acaso no le apetece a M viajar ahora tanto (ahorro económico de Dólares en combustible, hoteles, etc...)para dar el Knowledge, y por ello lo ha grabado en DVD? ¿La gracia va por vía técnologica también?
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 00:08:44 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: premie ji
Subject: Referral and Participation Opportunity
Message:
Dear premie ji:

Elan Vital has referred your post to our sister organization in Spain, or Mexico, or some place like that where they speak Spanish, or Mexican or something, and maybe they can help you. In the meantime, please note that Elan Vital accepts donations in dollars, pounds, pesos, lira, marks, franks, zlotys, guilders, kronas, yen, rupees, rubles, shekels, securities, stock, bonds, deeds, wampum, frequent flyer miles, promissory notes, life insurance policies, trust funds, trading stamps, precious stones, gold, Kugerands, collectible watches, antiques, drafts, credit cards, cashiers checks, personal checks, movie rental certificates, bottle and can deposit refunds, stock options, bodily organs, paychecks, insurance proceeds, class action settlements and food stamps.

Elan Vital makes it very easy to make donations, and we suggest you enhance your experience of breathing by showing some gratitude in any of these easy and convenient ways.

Sincerey in synchroniztion,

Elan Vital

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:29:44 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: hey É-V! if youre so synchronized, how come
Message:
you make at least one glaring typo on every letter, that betrays your sloppy, mindless, lazy, uneducated,slap happyclappy brainless state??

you're all frauds. maharaji does not tolerate imperfection! he does not brook mistakes! youre all fired.!obviously the poor guy has to everything himself if it's going to be dunrite. er...done right!

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 18:12:44 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M. Dettmers -- too important not to be up top
Message:
So, the story is coming together. Please forgive me for bringing this up to a new thread, but I think it's just too important to get lost in the thread below. I think Michael has set some real context in this post for other things that have been said, for why Maharaji has done what he has done. It appears to be a recurring pattern with him. Here is Michael's post. The post has to do with the marriage counseling that Maharaji and Marolyn engaged in, but I think you will agree it says a LOT more. Anyhow, I feel like I am finally getting a picture of all this. Thanks, Michael.

Some of you have asked questions about Maharaji and Marolyn’s therapy sessions with Dr. Irene Kassorla. I am unable to answer any questions about what took place during the sessions, as I was not present at any of them, nor did Maharaji or Marolyn or Dr. Kassorla ever discuss any of the details with me. With that proviso, I will do my best to answer your questions.
First, let me establish the context which led Maharaji and Marolyn to seek the help of a therapist. During the summer of 1984, Maharaji and Marolyn encountered a severe “bump in the road” in their marriage. During that time, Maharaji became aware of a rumor that Marolyn was having an affair with one of the premies doing full-time service at the Malibu residence. It is my belief that the rumor was true, although I have no absolute proof of that fact. I know that Maharaji believed it was true because I witnessed his incredible anger as well as his genuine sadness over this matter.

During this period, Maharaji and I became close, almost as friends. He was very vulnerable and it showed in his manner and behavior. He was far less arrogant than he often appeared to be, and his mood was very subdued. I remember during August he held an impromptu program in Miami. I had never seen him so humble and unassuming about himself and how he spoke about knowledge. Many people commented to me after the program about how touched they were and how different this program seemed from the others. No one knew the circumstances behind Maharaji’s shift in tone, but most attendees experienced it, including me.

After the program, Maharaji and I flew to an exclusive resort called The Greenbriar nestled in the Blue Ridge Mountains of West Virginia. There, the two of us spent three days. We wandered the beautiful grounds and went for long drives along the back roads. As angry and hurt as he was at Marolyn, he made it clear that he had no intention or desire of getting a divorce, for reasons I have already discussed. In one of these conversations I suggested that he and Marolyn seek counseling. I offered the opinion that someone with expert knowledge and experiencing in these matters might be helpful, in much the same way that the team of outside advisors I assembled had been helpful in restructuring his organization and personal affairs after the potential debacle we faced with the IRS in 1976. Despite his misgivings about therapists, my argument persuaded him to consider the possibility.

Before Maharaji finally agreed to meet with Dr. Kassorla, I had lengthy conversations with him explaining that any therapist worth his or her salt would need to have a thorough understanding of who he is. I specifically suggested that the issue of Marolyn as Durga Ji, his devotee, as well as his wife would definitely be a topic of considerable discussion, given their current difficulties. Maharaji agreed and indicated that he would feel more comfortable if I were the person who explained all of this to Dr. Kassorla.

Consequently, when I met with Dr. Kassorla, I explained how things were when Maharaji first came to the West, but explained that he had made great progress in his efforts to shed the Indian trappings and rituals that were exported from India. Based on some very personal and intimate conversations I shared with Maharaji during that period, I was convinced that he was ready to step down off the throne and begin a process of genuine dialogue with premies and non-premies alike. I envisioned that he would openly address these issues with all of the premies and take responsibility for the consequences his decisions had produced. I believed that it was not necessary for him to present himself as anything other than a human being, albeit a very evolved human being, who had something important to say about the meaning and purpose of live. Although the changes I had envisioned had not yet taken place, I spoke to Dr. Kassorla with a confidence and conviction as if they had. From my perspective, Dr. Kassorla had the potential, not only to help Maharaji and Marolyn with their marriage difficulties but, in doing so, to help him let go of his old identity and fully embrace his humanity. In essence, I had come full circle to where I was in 1976, before Maharaji put an end to the organizational changes, and ushered in a new era of devotion. Right or wrong, this is my response to Jerry who asked, “How did you reconcile recommending that M see a shrink to the power of Knowledge?”

From my perspective, the therapy seemed to be working. Although I wasn’t privy to any of the details, Maharaji and Marolyn attended all of the sessions, and he spoke very positively about Dr. Kassorla. Once Maharaji and Marolyn appeared to be getting their marriage back together, I felt it was time to extend this process into his organization. Maharaji’s positive experience with Dr. Kassorla made him receptive to my suggestion that we conduct a two-day conference at San Yisidro with organizational consultant Will Schutz. It was during that conference that the proverbial shit hit the fan. It’s was as if Dr. Kassorla had been playing softball, and then in came Will and suddenly the game changed to hardball. Maharaji freaked.

Without repeating all of what I have said before, Will and his associate told him that if he didn’t take to heart the enormous responsibility that comes with engendering such love and commitment, he could become very scary and dangerous. He also told Maharaji that, of all the groups he had facilitated, he had never experienced as much fear as was exhibited by our group. He added that, in his opinion, Maharaji had received too much, too soon and that he really had to start practicing what he preached. Finally, Will alerted Maharaji to the dangers of having so many people so dependent upon him. Maharaji was very confronted by these comments. He felt attacked and betrayed when Will’s comments were echoed by some of the conference participants, and so he withdrew into himself even though he remained physically present.

As I look back, the San Yisidro conference was a major turning point. I had hoped that the conference would help Maharaji extend his humanity throughout his organization and positively impact his approach to his mission. The exact opposite occurred. He reacted in much the same way he did when Bob Mishler confronted him in 1976. Rather than let the process settle for a couple of weeks as Will suggested, Maharaji cancelled the follow-up meeting and immediately fired two of the conference participants. He was as arrogant as before and he became imbued with cynicism. He continued to abuse alcohol and he began his sexual exploitation of his female devotees.

Bin Liner asked why I “didn't you walk when (I) realized Rawat was a fake?” Ultimately I did walk. But despite my disappointment, I genuinely loved him and I found it difficult to accept what I increasingly could not deny.

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 02:27:16 (GMT)
From: QuietGuy
Email: gottagettalife@ex-premie.org
To: Dettmers, et al
Subject: Riddle me this, Mr. Dettmers
Message:
Mr. Dettmers:

You wrote elsewhere on this web page that

'Maharaji always treated me with great respect, dignity and love, not just while I worked with him, but also at the time of my departure. Even though we disagreed, I respect his right to make whatever interpretation he chooses. I am clear, after all, that it is his work.'

Yet here you are, actually posting material about the very personal things between a man and wife going through therapy. Trash GMJ till the cows come home (that's your right) or do as much navel-gazing about knowledge as your time and patience will allow, but really, now, doesn't revealing the intimate facts about someone else's --anyone else's -- marraige strike you as....sleazy?

Good luck to you, and I hope you --and the others here-- can let go of their anger and hate. It's kind of repellant.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 19:48:23 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: QuietGuy
Subject: Anger and hate ?????
Message:
I must confess that I always find it strange to see this particular expression from current cult members towards those who post on this site.

I see very little anger and hatred on here. Am I blind? I find that the majority of the posters here are articulate and lovable. I think that the premie take might be that ridicule is hateful which just goes to show that the premie viewpoint is always that Mahaha is beyond reproach.

I wonder if what they are really shocked by is more akin to the word BLASPHEMY ?

Yes we are certainly blasphemers here in that case but not usually hateful angry blasphemers.

Come on premies , get real and honest, haven't you wanted to shout something obscene at times and walk out the door ? I know that many times my wicked little mind came up with some outrageous comments which I would love to have shouted out. The most common was an old Anglo Saxon word very much to the point. BOLLOCKS !!!!!

Hal

Hey premies the door is always open .--- walk

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 06:15:41 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: QuietGuy
Subject: Michael's post is neither anger nor hate
Message:
Michael and many of the folks on here are 'outing' the hidden life of someone who, in effect, claims to be the Master, God, the Creator, you-name-it. If telling the honest truth about his hidden life would make him look bad, then he needs to clean up his act. M is not an ordinary person who deserves his privacy. If he wants that, he needs to get off the throne, take what's left of his fraudulently-earned millions and lead an 'ordinary' life. Perhaps he can retire to Amerscrew.

Michael's been very reasonable in his tone. This is not a MJ love-in. There is anger at times, there is regret at times, some mourn lost lives that could have been, and often, as Michael, Joe and others express it, there are JUST THE PLAIN FACTS.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 04:10:49 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: QuietGuy
Subject: Riddle me this, Mr. Dettmers
Message:
Mr. QuietGuy,

Maharaji at one time presented himself as the Perfect Master and Lord of the Universe. During this phase, he strongly encouraged his devotees, most of whom were in their late teens or early twenties to forego their families, educations and career aspirations so that they could surrender their lives to him. In doing so, he entered into a sacred covenant which he arbitrarily annulled several years later without so much as an explanation. The anger to which you refer is an expression of legitimate outrage at someone who experimented with, and then discarded, the very lives from whom he demanded and received absolute obedience and a lifetime commitment, not to mention millions of dollars.

This same Maharaji is also guilty of harboring a pedophile who has caused unimaginable pain and suffering. This situation, too, has caused justifiable outrage. I find your callous indifference to the reasons for so much anger to be particularly repellent.

As to your other point, Maharaji is not just “anyone.' He is a public figure whose behavior is at odds with what he preaches. That causes confusion and/or indignation among people who turned to him for spiritual solace. Maharaji’s wife, Marolyn, was also a public figure. He presented her to his devotees as Durga Ji. Consequently, she too bears some responsibility for the confusion and suffering that was inflicted on those who placed their faith in Maharaji. Under these circumstances, I believe my report about there marriage is relevant, especially to people who are trying to understand what was going on behind the scenes to better understand how the cult operated so that others need not commit the same mistakes we made or suffer the indignities he perpetuated.

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 03:29:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: QuietGuy
Subject: You can answer that yourself, premie-ji
Message:
As you know, Mike's posting this stuff because he wants to help deflate the mythic balloon Maharaji's been floating for so long. This shit is extremely effective in that respect and you know it. By your reckoning, I assume, the fact that Maharaji happened to be nice to one of his cult members, Mike in this case, binds Mike to a life of secrecy, right? No matter how well Mike knows information that blows Maharaji's cover wide open, so long as Maharaji was nice to Mike, the latter should never say anything?

That's very, very short-sighted.

You know what I think? I think you don't want anyone to know the truth about Maharaji. Why don't you do this, though? Go back through some of the older, archived satsangs, the ones where Maharaji urges his divinty up on, threatens and orders us to succumb to his will and all that. Read that shit and then come back and tell us why we shouldn't know the rest of the story.

By the way, have you posted here before? Under what name?

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 00:36:26 (GMT)
From: QuietGuy
Email: missingthepoint@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: doesn't answer the question
Message:
Look folks, I'll say it again, just so it's clear. I believe that Mr. Dettmers HAS EVERY RIGHT to express himself as he sees fit. So this ad hominem stuff about 'you're just a cult member who doesn't like criticism of MJ' stuff is nonsense. Slash and burn all you want.

All I seem to hear from y'all is 'Maharaji deserves it.' Whatever he's done wrong, however you feel cheated or misled, that doesn't change the simple fact that it's sleazy to discuss the intimate goings on between a man and wife. Yes, as a matter of law he and his wife are probably famous persons and thus subject to public criticism. But I'm not talking about law: I'm talking about right and wrong WITHOUT your justifications by reference to someone else's wrongdoings, perceived or otherwise. Can you honestly answer that in the affirmative?

As for me: 1) yes, I've been practicing K since 1980; 2) no, I have never posted here before; 3) I don't go to programs regularly; 4) I think an awful lot of premies are jerks (the same can be said about cops or TV repairmen); 5) I never lived in the ashram because I always felt the quasi-hindu stuff had nothing to do with K; 5) I never gave a damn about what premies or initiators did or said, and I'll eat meat, drink scotch, smoke cigarettes and have wild sex if I want, and K has nothing to do with that.

One more thing: I always thought that DLM bigwigs (sorry Mr. Dettmers) and initiators in general were a bunch of weirdos and had nothing to do with my relationship with the power of the universe.

Peace out,
QG

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 13:16:37 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: QuietGuy
Subject: If I understand you, Mr. QuietGuy
Message:
you appear to be suggesting that, by writing about Maharaji and Marolyn's marriage difficulties, I am stooping to the same sleeezy and unethical behavior that has consistently been exhibited by Maharaji himself. Humm... interesting point.

But, if that is so, wouldn't it only be fair and just that you also took your self-professed Master to task for his sleezy and unethical behavior. I mean, why the double standard?

Michael

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 03:04:13 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: QuietGuy
Subject: Quiet Guy:reasons why personal stuff is important.
Message:
Hey Quiet Guy-

Here's some reasons why I think this stuff is important, and why I and others have asked MD some of these personal questions.

If you received K in 1980, you might not have some of the same feelings and experiences that some of the old timers from the early 70' have, because by the time you came around in 1980, a LOT of the fanaticism was toned down, although plenty still remained, as it still does today.

1)M had preached for years that he was perfect,permanently in God-consciousness,and had completely 'realized' knowledge, whatever that means.
When we hear of behaviour that looks extreme, bizarre and reckless, we start to wonder if he is really having the spiritual experience that he talks about or not.If he, the master, is not, what chance does anyone else have?

2)Many references were made by M and the instructors to M and Marolyn being some sort of 'divine couple'.
We now realize that it was a sham, a carefully crafted facade to further M's own charade.
Their relationship seems to be extremely dysfunctional, which is very different than what we were told it was.
There are numerous examples of both M and Marolyn lying about the nature of their relationship, while we now know what was going on behind the scenes with them.
Shouldn't we know if the man we were following was a liar, hypocrite or fraud?
Wouldn't you want to know, especially if you bring new people in?

3)Shouldn't we know if the man professing to have inner peace and perfect love within himself that he is always in touch with, has drugs, alcohol, affairs, abortions, illegal activites,and out and out lies swirling around him?
Do you think new people would want to get into this if they knew the real M?
Shouldn't they know?
Has he realized anything himself?
Is he living any of these ideals himself?

4)M created his public persona, and promised many things.
Almost none of them have come true.
Because of this, he is getting the flak that he gets.
Do you think it is an accident that he is getting all of this directed at him?

There are more answers I might have, but that's it for now.

To answer your basic question if this is right or not, to discuss M's personal life...

Yes, I absolutely do, and in fact I consider this site to be a great 'service' to others, in that it tells the 'rest of the story' and helps people sort out their unusual lives with M, express themselves in ways that he doesn't allow, and helps potential new recruits find out the stuff they need to know to make an accurate assessment of the man and the knowledge he professes to offer and live by.

la-ex

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 04:21:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Thanks, LAX. You said it all
Message:
The point's so obvious yet these guys just keep us reapeating it. Funny how empty premie arguments are, huh? They're like an itch or something. You just have to go there, scratch it a bit and they disappear. 'Til the next time, of course.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 00:25:25 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks Joe and Michael D.
Message:
Is some of this stuff posted in a thread on best of forum? I guess I'll have to copy some of it to my hard drive. I'd love to have the information handy to give to some folks I know in a condensed fashion.
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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:51:41 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: M. Dettmers -- wait a minute--look at the timeline
Message:
here!:

marolyn has an affair with a guy. maharaji gets bummed. he experiences his first serious vulnerability and failure. he's genuinely afraid he's lost his wife.

he has long talks with michael. he agrees to try marriage counseling. his wife agrees. they attend. things get better. their marriage is saved.

AND THEN HE STARTS PHILANDERING WITH ARRANGED TRYSTS WITH BUSTY BLONDES HE BEDS AND GETS RID OF?????

HEY, THATS SOME MARRIAGE COUNSELING, ALLRIGHT. I CAN REALLY SEE HOW IT SAVED THE HOLY AND SACRED COVENANT THEY BOUND THEMSELVES TO ON MAY 20TH 1974.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 10:31:21 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: janet
Subject: Maybe
Message:
janet,

Let me suggest a slightly different take. Maharaji was genuinely sad and angry about Marolyn’s affair. Regardless of his anger and sadness, he was adamant that he did not want their marriage to end in divorce. Remember my post regarding his concerns about losing face with his mother and the premies in India because she denounced him for marrying a Westerner?

The marriage counseling did work in this sense. Marolyn abandoned whatever relationship she had developed. With Dr. Kassorla’s help, I’m sure they came to some mutual understandings that might not have been possible without her intervention. I’m also willing to bet that Dr. Kassorla conducted a “reality check” with Marolyn by pointing out that she had become accustomed to a lifestyle that would be seriously jeopardized in a divorce, and she might lose custody of her children. In any case, the therapy only lasted for about eight months and the net result was that they agreed to remain together. I seriously doubt that eight months was enought time to get at, and resolve, deep seated issues.

Now let’s fast forward to the San Ysidro conference. Don’t forget, Marolyn was a participant in the conference. When I said that some of the participants echoed Will Schutz’s sentiments, she was among them. Maharaji came out of that conference bitter, isolated and alone. Even though everyone at the conference did everything possible to say what had to be said with love and concern for him, he felt betrayed by those closest to him, just as he did in 1976. He was simply unwilling or incapable of accepting the truth of what was said to him. And, of course, his excessive drinking didn’t help matters.

By the time he started his affairs, he must have been satisfied that his marriage was salvaged, if only in form, which was probably all that he cared about by then. I think that his affairs were his way of dealing with his un-resolved anger and served as a way of getting back at Marolyn.

Michael

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 18:35:34 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks, Joe. Amazing stuff.
Message:
Lots of gurus - perhaps most of them - eventually abuse their power, often by sexually abusing their devotees. Jim posted an article about the latest one recently: Swami Shyam. Then there's Swami Kriyanda, Da Free John, Swami Chitananda (nityananda institute), Kalu Rinpoche (don't want to slight the Tibetans), that Zen guy in California, Swami Muktananda (with his special fucking table), etc. etc.

But Michael's post was so interesting in that we see a sympathetic picture of a guru who is on the verge of being honest about the whole thing, about coming to grips with his mistakes and even sharing the process with his followers.

Has this ever happened before? Has a guru renounced his superpowers to his devotees without being forced to? I suppose Krishnamurti might be an example, kind of.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:40:05 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: on the verge of being honest
Message:
Yes, around that time Rawat was a little more honest about the whole thing. He said that darshan worked 'because you thought it would work', he had stopped 'giving darshan'. When asked about how the techniques worked he said 'I don't know.' He said that he could not listen to premies' prayers. He also wasn't so abusive.

In other words, 'I'm not God afterall, did I say that I was God?'

I thought he was going in the right direction. But he resumed 'giving darshan' and sneakily implies that he's something super duper, like 'God incarnate' or something. The last time I heard him speak he was abusive, using fear and guilt to manipulate.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:42:56 (GMT)
From: Charles S.
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Amazing stuff, and sad...
Message:
I feel my own involvment with M. parallels what Michael described; hanging in there, hoping it was going to get better, only to eventually be forced to face the fact that it wasn't going to get better, and leaving.

I agree with Joe that it is a very important post, and I'm very grateful to Michael for sharing that with us.

Gregg, here is a link I found on EPO to the website of Faquir Chand. He was an Indian Guru who has often been called the ''Most Honest'' of Indian Gurus, because he denied that the guru has any special powers.

It makes for an interesting read, and is a good insight into Indian culture as well. Even without the ''magic powers'', it didn't make me want to rush out and get another guru! I doubt that any traditional guru schtick will ever work in the west, without problems.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:08:19 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Good point,Gregg.The MRC letter...
Message:
asked M if he would consider coming down off the throne and do something revolutionary: become the first cult leader to bust up his own cult and tell the truth...

so far, he's not biting, but that doesn't mean there aren't 'drips' in his life as well...

maybe when his kids get one too many smart-aleck questions that he just can't BS them with quick answers...maybe then he'll reconsider....he's come close a few times, maybe time will tell...

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:35:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I think we have to assume...
Message:
that Maharaji is basically beyond hope in the 'coming down from the throne' department.

We have now seen that he had the opportunity to do it in 1976, and again in 1984, and of course it has been 16 years since then, and it's clear to Maharaji that he is pretty much of a failure at propagation, especially in the West, so he has had plenty of feedback that he is pretty ordinary. So, I'm sure there have been plenty of opportunities since then. Hell, he can do whatever he likes and could have done it at any time. It's not like he has to answer to anyone but himself, such is the advantage of the pedestal Maharaji has put himself on.

But I think it's mostly defensive for him. I think his experience in 1976 was formative, in the sense that he saw that if he let up on premies believing he was divine, that they would stop worshipping him, and he would be finito, perhaps having to give up on even the pretense of a world-wide reach and go back to India and live as a second-rate Guru, as he is there. I think seeing the premies stream away from him in 1976 scared the crap out of him. We all paid for his paranoia for at least the next 7 years, but I don't think that fear has ever left him.

So, I really think that any talk of reforming Maharaji is useless, except to the extent that talking about it gets premies and fence-sitters to question what is going on with Maharaji, and see him for what he is.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:07:44 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Gregg - there was one
Message:
Amrit Desai, head of the Kripalu Institute in Massachussetts seemed to be on the verge of really letting go and becoming ordinary. They had so many therapy conferences there, with people like Marion Woodman, and the membership was getting a bit antsy about all the guru stuff as they were coming into their own power. So he started talking about coming down off his pedestal.

Unfortunately, not a week or so later, it was suddenly discovered that he had been having sex with several female disciples despite being married and supposedly celibate. Several of the women had tried to talk about it and he had denied it and therefore the community had ostracized them, and this was considered the real crime, that he had lied and caused the women to be abused. So the community fired him, and he was out the door with his suitcases within a few days.

He is still doing his guru thing on the road, though. I read an interview with him and it seemed as though he really never got humble. He was indirectly ranting about people's needs to project and villify him. Oh well.

This is all described in the very good book Yoga and the Quest for the Real Self.

I think that MJ was much further from this kind of change. As someone mentioned below, the work would have been a complete reversal of his entire limbic brain patterns from childhood on. He needs to do it sooner or later because it is fucked and very bad karma schmarma. I think if money weren't such a factor, people such as Marolyn might bust him.

Love Disculta

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 00:55:28 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: evolved
Message:
It's funny to me how any of us could think that Maharaji was an evolved human being. That struck me as funny when Dettmers said that (no offense intended to Dettmers, we all thought that).
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:15:57 (GMT)
From: Tell Man
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 'Too important etc.'
Message:
What I find sad is that Mike Detttmers obviously lost the actual practice of going inside himself for his ideal. Looking for something or someone to be PERFECT is looking for trouble from the 'get go'. I suggest that all those who look outside and particularly toward Mr. Rawat for their peace and flawlessness; stop and look again at life, and pursue with conviction that which you truly think will bring contentment. Simply remember; time is passing, don't waste it, for we all die at some point in our futures.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 10:56:41 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Tell Man
Subject: Help me Tell Man.
Message:
I'm not sure what you mean by 'going inside myself'.

Is this sticking fingers down my throat, up my nose, in my ears, up my arse, or are you suggesting practicing surgery on myself?

Explain please.

Anth the imperfect who is full of organs inside.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:59:04 (GMT)
From: Thelma the Fat Fag
Email: None
To: Tell Man
Subject: Tell Man, thanks for your concern
Message:
You exhorted us to: ''...pursue with conviction that which you truly think will bring contentment.''

I think that's exactly what most of are doing. But thanks for reminding us. We really do need to be reminded since we got so much into the habit over the past 30 years of having Capt Rawat remind us to breathe.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:28:47 (GMT)
From: Tell Man
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: [edited by FA]
Message:
Sorry diid't know the rule. I will now follow it.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:40:06 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Tell Man
Subject: Alias
Message:
Thank you 'Tell Man' - I shall unblock you now. If you wish to change to a name you wish to keep, please let us know next time you post, ie TellMan = 'Fred' or whatever. By sticking to one name people will develop an idea of your positioning and personality and hopefully begin a fruitful dialogue.

Forum Administrator

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:57:32 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Tell Man
Subject: PS
Message:
I have also restored your deleted posts, at least the ones which were still in my cache.

FA

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 17:08:36 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: all readers
Subject: michael dettmers
Message:
Just to chip in here a little. I completely support all that Michael dettmers has posted, the tone and substance for sure.

the marital difficulties go back further then remembered however. there was something going on in 1983 with marolyn and her 'driver/escort' in miami in 1983 that had us scratching our heads. i was asked by m to drive the motor home back from malibu with this fellow to miami in 1983. the motor home needed to get back to miami for the family use on one hand and things had become quite sensitive with the relationship between this fellow and marolyn during the malibu stay. m was upset and jealous. he asked me to drive with this guy to miami to both 'get information' and give satsang to him. little of either happened. i did not like the role assigned to me to 'get information' and besides the guy didn/t trust me knowing that m had assigned me to go with him. he talked on the cell phone out of ear shot a few times with marolyn while on that trip. the affair, whatever its nature, continued in miami and things continued to be intense around the home fires 1983 84.

also while at decca once m asked me about a premie woman he was attracted to. had me arrange for me to get her in a place where he would be passing by to be able to give her darshan as well as check her out closer up. m occasionally asked me about her during 82-84 time frame. i do not know if anything came of it.

one long time premie/resdident servant woman has horrible memories of sex with m. feeling very used after the one time quickie when he would not speak to her nor make eye contact. not sure the time frame, michael remembers 1986 range...seems to me it was earlier. but....

i have no personal knowledge of any other affairs by either except vivid memories of monica lewis in miami 82-84 (i left in 84, summer). she lived in the same house as i and was there without portfolio..it often seemed to many of us that marolyn was even setting her up with m. clearly there was something between m and monica then and marolyn was completely aware...and didn't use her power to get rid of her. the quess of many of us then was that marolyn was involved with this fellow and wanted m to find someone too. maybe the other way round.

mainly, this sort of thing was felt to be (by me and others at the res. at the time) to be a huge distraction from the efforts to spread knowledge. like the kinky games of the rich and famous. certainly continued to turn me off towards the beginning of 84.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 16:40:01 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: wwilliam@kumc.edu
To: Everyone
Subject: To Patrick (formerly Anon)
Message:
Patrick,

I have tried to email you at patrickwilson.com. But my emails come back undeliverable. Would you email me so I can send you my message? Thanks.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 17:34:48 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: To Patrick (formerly Anon) very OT
Message:
I too have an odd question for you and have lost your email.

Is there still a health food store called Infinity Foods in Brighton? (I think you live in Hove).

Your answer would be deeply appreciated.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 18:52:52 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: Disculta and Way
Subject: replies
Message:
Yes there is. Infinity Foods has been going for about 30 odd years now I guess. It has expanded and is very popular and succesful.

The problem with email was the result of my server being down this morning. All works ok now.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:31:56 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: Wow ot
Message:
I cofounded Infinity Foods with my boyfriend 30 years ago (then left to be with the Lard and live in Brighton ashram).

Shoulda bought stock!

love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 15:55:07 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Michael Dettmers-Thanks, and a few ?'s...
Message:
Michael-

Your post about the therapy period was once again quite informative. In some way that I can't quite explain, all of these revelations are helpful to me in 'putting all of the pieces of the puzzle together'. Not only in the M puzzle, but in my puzzle as well. So, thanks again.

I have a few questions about the therapy period.

1-You indicate that Marolyn probably had an affair, which angered and hurt m.
Was he already having affairs before this, but felt that she should not have the same right to do so?
Or did she have the first affair?(I would find it hard to imagine that she would do this, given her view of him. It would seem more likely that she did it to get back at him, or show him that she could play the same games that he did.)

2-Can you talk more about the long and intimate discussions that you and M had at the resort in West Virginia?
You must have had a lot of time to talk, during 3 days at a resort.
Can you remember the topics of discussion?

3-You stated that it seemed that the therapy was working, or having an effect.
Were there certain behaviors or attitudes that changed in M that gave you that perspective?
It's very common for people to make fairly quick changes in therapy, but when the scope of the work to be done, and the pain involved with it, become apparent, it is very common for the client to 'back off', and not come back.
Do you think something like that happened?

4-Did M's drinking/smoking/partying change as a result of the therapy sessions?

5-Did M ever seriously discuss with you how he would 'shift gears' and level with the premies, present himself differently, and own up to his deceptions?
Were you just envisioning how he might do that, or did he actually talk with you about how he might go about doing that?

6-Do you know if M ever tried going to any other therapists or self help type people again, either for personal or organizational help?
Teddy Tanenbaum told someone that M learned some stuff from a seminar and then went back to the residence and taught the stuff to the residence staff and his family, in order to try and make things run more smoothly. Apparently things were pretty antagonistic and wierd around the rsidence at different peiods.
Were you a part of that?

7-Do you know why they stopped going to therapy?
Generally people go less because they feel that they have worked through the issues and don't need it as much anymore.
However, it seems that he was probably just scratching the surface.
My feeling is that if he really went through with what you and Bob Mischler suggested, it would have been the death of his entire identity, and his 'mission' in life, as dictated by his father/god.
I think it was probably too much, too soon, as Will seems to have said.
Is that your conclusion as well?

8-Do you think there is anyone he would listen to now, in these regards?

9-Do you have any feedback on any effects that your posts have had on M?
I know that there are many people who lurk on EPO, and read without posting, who are premies.
The feedback I have is that they totally believe your posts are honest and for real.
I would think that some people around M would feel the same...do you think there is any chance that any of this is getting through to him?
Or do you think he will have to fall really badly before he will venture another attempt to look at himself and level with the people he has affected so strongly?

Thanks, Michael...
Whatever you can answer is appreciated.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 00:32:26 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: la-ex
Subject: A few answers
Message:
la-ex,

1-You indicate that Marolyn probably had an affair, which angered and hurt m. Was he already having affairs before this, but felt that she should not have the same right to do so? Or did she have the first affair? (I would find it hard to imagine that she would do this, given her view of him. It would seem more likely that she did it to get back at him, or show him that she could play the same games that he did.)

I have no evidence, nor do I believe, that Maharaji ever had any extramarital affairs before 1986, which was almost two years after their marriage problems occurred. My conviction is based on the conversations I had with Maharaji when he began his series of affairs. The substance of those conversations made it clear to me that he did not have any prior experience in such matters. Thus, it is my opinion that Marolyn did not have an affair to get back at him. I believe Marolyn craved intimacy, not sex, although sex can be a powerful expression of intimacy. And intimacy is certainly not one of Maharaji’s strong points. In fact, as became painfully clear at the San Ysidro conference, Maharaji is very isolated and alone atop his throne.

2-Can you talk more about the long and intimate discussions that you and M had at the resort in West Virginia? You must have had a lot of time to talk, during 3 days at a resort. Can you remember the topics of discussion?

Please see my response to your question #5.

3-You stated that it seemed that the therapy was working, or having an effect. Were there certain behaviors or attitudes that changed in M that gave you that perspective? It's very common for people to make fairly quick changes in therapy, but when the scope of the work to be done, and the pain involved with it, become apparent, it is very common for the client to 'back off', and not come back. Do you think something like that happened?

I experienced Maharaji to be much more open during the time he and Marolyn were in therapy. That was the time when we had our most meaningful conversations and spent quality time together outside of the normal context of my specific service to him. That period, which lasted from August 1984 through April 1985, ended following the San Ysidro conference. That conference dispelled for him any illusions about what was required if he were to step down off the thrown and get real and honest with people.

The main reason I picked Will Schutz, besides his considerable experience at facilitating executive conferences, was his methodology. His approach emphasized the absolute importance of speaking the truth to each other. His then latest book called “The Truth Option” had just been released and, after reading it, I became convinced that his approach spoke directly to a core problem I and others had experienced consistently around Maharaji. Maharaji cultivated an atmosphere of fear and competition around him, and lies (his, mine and everyone’s) were the glue that kept the whole game alive. In my opinion, Maharaji lacked the courage to take the bold step that was clearly before him.

4-Did M's drinking/smoking/partying change as a result of the therapy sessions?

Maharaji continued to drink and smoke during and after therapy. I believe the partying to which you refer didn’t start in earnest until after he began his series of affairs.

5-Did M ever seriously discuss with you how he would 'shift gears' and level with the premies, present himself differently, and own up to his deceptions?
Were you just envisioning how he might do that, or did he actually talk with you about how he might go about doing that?

Our conversations about these matters were very speculative with me making suggestions about how he might approach it. “Deceptions” is not a word I ever used in my conversations with Maharaji. At that time, I did not believe that he had consciously deceived or conned anybody. Given his indoctrination from the time he was born, I think that he really believed that he was the Satguru, lord and Perfect Master. My hope was that, through therapy, reflection, and dialogue with others, he would come to understand that he inherited a role at a very young age, a role that was steeped in tradition and with his father as his role-model. But it was a role, not some innate, unalterable identity. And that role was no longer useful or necessary if he seriously wanted to spread his knowledge throughout the world.

My suggestion was that he engage in open dialogue with premies about what he had learned from his own life experiences. He could speak, for instance, about what he had learned about different people’s spiritual and religious concepts, expectations, and aspirations after traveling all over the world and meeting so many people from so many cultures, and how they differed from his own upbringing as a guru-in-training in a predominately Hindu culture. This could create an opening for him to explain that, by transplanting his identity as the Satguru around the world, he unwittingly enabled and encouraged people to project their concepts of god and savior onto him. He could address the negative consequences that resulted when so many people became dependent upon him for their experience of knowledge. He could speak about what he had learned about human relationships, specifically within the context of the breakdown in his own marriage. I told him about the positive comments several people had made to me following his impromptu program in Miami to which I referred in my previous post, where he spoke from the hear without any pretense. I encourage him to consider mingling more with people, spontaneously shaking their hands and, in general, being more approachable and accessible.

This was the gist of my conversations with Maharaji. In some ways, I was winging it. I did not have a comprehensive plan worked out in my head or on paper. But, at the time, it was an accomplishment, nonetheless, that I was even having these conversations with him, and his open and positive responses led me to believe that he was serious about making changes along these lines.

6-Do you know if M ever tried going to any other therapists or self help type people again, either for personal or organizational help? Teddy Tanenbaum told someone that M learned some stuff from a seminar and then went back to the residence and taught the stuff to the residence staff and his family, in order to try and make things run more smoothly. Apparently things were pretty antagonistic and weird around the residence at different periods. Were you a part of that?

Maharaji did not go to any other therapists while I was around him. His only structured learning centered on becoming certified to fly different types of aircraft. So perhaps it’s possible that he picked up something at flight school that passed it along, but I was never present when he did. Maybe they took place after I left.

7-Do you know why they stopped going to therapy? Generally people go less because they feel that they have worked through the issues and don't need it as much anymore. However, it seems that he was probably just scratching the surface. My feeling is that if he really went through with what you and Bob Mischler suggested, it would have been the death of his entire identity, and his 'mission' in life, as dictated by his father/god. I think it was probably too much, too soon, as Will seems to have said. Is that your conclusion as well?

I can think of two reasons. One, Maharaji was satisfied that he had done what he needed to do to preserve his marriage. Second, in addition to reason number one, he did not want to ever again be confronted as he was by Will Schutz and others at the San Ysidro conference.

8-Do you think there is anyone he would listen to now, in these regards?

I have no idea.

9-Do you have any feedback on any effects that your posts have had on M? I know that there are many people who lurk on EPO, and read without posting, who are premies. The feedback I have is that they totally believe your posts are honest and for real. I would think that some people around M would feel the same...do you think there is any chance that any of this is getting through to him? Or do you think he will have to fall really badly before he will venture another attempt to look at himself and level with the people he has affected so strongly?

I would be surprised if he doesn’t know about my posts. I’m sure his advisors must bring such matters to his attention. That, of course, does not mean that he has read what I have said or even cares. So I don’t know what effect, if any, they are having on him. I know that many people have read them because I have received lots of e-mails from people who lurk but don’t post, thanking me for speaking out. Yes, to your last point.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 02:29:42 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thanks Michael, you're always so thorough and
Message:
serious. I'm sure a lot of us appreciate the time and effort required. I know you told me that you are working on a Journey but I'm also hoping that you are working on a book combining not only a history of Maharajism but also your ''explanation for the phenomenon.''

You said: ''And that role was no longer useful or necessary if he seriously wanted to spread his knowledge throughout the world.''

Well, 15 years later he has taken your advice which brings me to this. While I enjoy your posts, I hope that you are not going to be giving him any more good ideas.

As you said: ''I would be surprised if he doesn’t know about my posts. I’m sure his advisors must bring such matters to his attention. That, of course, does not mean that he has read what I have said or even cares. So I don’t know what effect, if any, they are having on him.

The effect may take 15 years by which time he will be able to claim that your ideas are HIS ideas. I have become more circumspect in my own ''explanation for the phenomenon'' on FV for that very reason. I don't feel like breathing life into his organization with fresh ideas or in any other way make myself useful to Maharajism.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 03:27:47 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Don't worry.
Message:
Pat,

Thanks for expressing your concern but I believe you have nothing to fear. I don't see any evidence that Maharaji has taken the essence of what Will Schutz and I said to heart. He may have made some external changes in how he presents himself and knowledge, but those are futile PR efforts at best. In the age of the Internet, people will and are seeing through them.

The Élan Vital website is a cesspool of deception and lies. Instead of engaging in open and honest dialogue, Maharaji is still pontificating from on high with his nonsense about the 'Master.' Videos of his recent organizer training sessions reek of his arrogance. He has not made a single move to take responsibility for his past mistakes, but instead continues to blame others for his failures. Just last July, I wrote to him about the Jagdeo matter, hoping and suggesting that he 'do the right thing' but, once again, he demonstrated that he has no idea what the right thing is.

Consequently, I have no fear that any of my good ideas may inadvertently help prop up his failing mission because he does not have the courage nor the desire to address the deep personal issues that he must first confront to make any of those ideas meaningful and powerful. As long as his greed, cynicism and indifference to the concerns of others continue to dictate his priorities, any and all ideas that are based on sincerity, honesty and authenticity will fall on deaf ears.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:24:31 (GMT)
From: Tell Man
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Don't worry.
Message:
What I find sad is that Mike Detttmers obviously lost the actual
practice of going inside himself for his ideal. Looking for something
or someone to be PERFECT is looking for trouble from the 'get go'. I
suggest that all those that look outside and particularly toward Mr.
Rawat for their peace and flawlessness; stop and look again at life, and
pursue with conviction that which you truly think will bring
contentment. Simply remember; time is passing, don't waste it, for we
all die at some point in our futures.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 21:00:25 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Tell Man
Subject: Don't worry.
Message:
Tell Man,

Whatever gives you the idea that I am 'looking for something or someone to be PERFECT' (I presume Maharaji is the 'someone' to whom you refer)? If you read my posts, you will see that I did my best to encourage Maharaji to give up any pretense of being perfect. Also, how do you know and what do you mean when you say that I have 'obviously lost the actual practice of going inside (my)self for (my) ideal?' Just curious.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 16:33:31 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Tell Man
Subject: And what I find sad...
Message:
...is brainless posts like yours.

What I find sad is that Mike Detttmers obviously lost the actual practice of going inside himself for his ideal.

How do you know? And would you find it similarly sad if Mr Rawat lost the meditation habit? Interesting, maybe? If not, why even read this stuff...?

Looking for something or someone to be PERFECT is looking for trouble from the 'get go'.

And therefore any person who presents himself as perfect is going to be stirring up trouble, right?

I suggest that all those that look outside and particularly toward Mr. Rawat for their peace and flawlessness; stop and look again at life, and pursue with conviction that which you truly think will bring contentment.

Well you're preaching to the converted here. I know plenty of people here pursuing all sorts of worthy ideals with convicion.
Besides, ex-premies no longer look to Mr Rawat for anything. That's what makes them ex-premies, if you think about it. And the testimonmy presented here will help ensure others cease to look to Mr Rawat. By your own terms, a GOOD THING, surely?

Simply remember; time is passing, don't waste it, for we
all die at some point in our futures.

Did you ever consider writing a book?

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 11:37:31 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Tell Man
Subject: You're right Tell Man.
Message:
You said,

'I suggest that all those that look outside and particularly toward Mr.Rawat for their peace and flawlessness; stop and look again at life, and pursue with conviction that which you truly think will bring contentment. Simply remember; time is passing, don't waste it, for we all die at some point in our futures.'

This is excellent advice Tell Man. Captain Rawat has nothing for you except an empty bank account.

Anth who took the advice and feels much better for it.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:29:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Tell Man
Subject: Be happy
Message:
You're a smart one, dude. Looks like you've got this whole issue nailed. You didn't by chance read up on this stuff, did you? Sure looks like it.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 08:01:34 (GMT)
From: Thelma the Fat Fag
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My god, you mean we all have to die one day?
Message:
Shit, I didn't know that. Thanks Tell Man for letting me know.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 08:46:27 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Thelma the Fat Fag
Subject: yes dearie-even jesus died. no one gets out
Message:
of here alive.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 03:52:43 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Michael, there have been some times lately
Message:
that he has shown that his kids may be asking awkward questions. They are after all California spoiled brats. He definitely has a dual personality. Sometimes he speaks as if he is
''channelling'' the voice of god and other times he'll be quite modest. The ''modesty'' often rings as a theatrical device but I think he believes that he is both Captain Rawat, the wealthy Malibu home-owner, (some of those movie stars also think they are god) and Balyogeshwar with agya from his ''Master'' to spread Knowledge.

The past year has seen an increase in revisionism and I think FV has had an influence. I am not comfortable helping him and his spin-doctors make Maharajism more palatable to educated westerners. For that reason I have stopped talking about yoga because I think I know more about it than he does and it might give ideas on how to present it as a ''mental health'' exercise as hatha is a system of physical health exercises.

I don't flatter myself for one minute that he would take what I say seriously but I have known a few ''tycoons'' who plagiarise their employees' ideas. The EV spin-doctors at some times seemed to be parallelling quite a few of the thoughts that I sent the Capt via email last year when I was still ''in his employ'' as a humble church lady.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 00:01:57 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: dual personality
Message:
He does seem to have a dual personality. He has said many things that are quite incompatible with the idea that he is the 'Master', like admitting that his watch collecting is a 'bad habit'. He and premies seem to use the strange notion that he is both God and man (similar to the way some Christians feel about Christ) to deal with this obvious contradiction. I doesn't make sense, how can someone know everything but not know everything? How he could possibly think he's all-knowing I don't know. I don't think he does, but perhaps he's much more deluded than I estimate.

Many premies think that he's only pretending when he shows that he doesn't know everything, etc. I remember being told when I was doing some 'service' around 'Maharaji' that even though 'Maharaji' knows everything and is all-powerful, he acts like he doesn't and isn't so that premies would have more 'service' to do and could relate to him. So I should go along with this 'game'. I can't believe I actually bought that crap.

The idea that someone could know everything or be 'all-powerful' is actually quite ludicrous.

He keeps the concept of the 'Master' rather vague, one reason is that if it were defined explicitly and in detail, than there would be a way to determine, a way to measure if he really is 'the Master'. He's always made it out that 'Knowledge' is unmeasurable.

Balyogeshwar means 'born king of yogis', another stupid claim because if you were to ask practitioners of yoga, only a handful would consider him their 'king'. The implied meaning though is that only his 'yoga' is valid and everyone's elses is crap, but they don't know that because they are so low and ignorant.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 01:08:40 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Dual personality and Capt Rawat's kids
Message:
Don't you sometimes wonder how that ''dual personality'' plays out when he's with his kids. Has he told them that he's one with the source of all creation and therefore God (just like Rama and Krishna) but also just an ordinary fallible human being who's greedy and materialistic but who happens to be an
''inspirational teacher?'' How does he keep a straight face when he tells them stuff like that? I wonder what they say about their dad when they hang out with the other Malibu brat-pack? Or do they? Is he bringing them up in the same weird way he was raised with no normal childhood?

The girls appear in public with him singing their quasi-incestuous songs to their ''divine lover'' but I haven't seen the boys in years. Amar's pilot leaner's licence is posted here in the active index along with his dad's but I have not seen or heard Hans in almost 20 years. He's 24 now and, as the eldest son, may be going through some oedipal power struggles with his father.

I cannot imagine Hans following in his father's footsteps unless he is just as unscrupulous. I hope not as he always seemed a shy, modest little fellow and not a show-off like his dad and two sisters.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 15:18:19 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Good Point
Message:
Pat,

I think you are right when you point out that Maharaji 'believes that he is both Captain Rawat, the wealthy Malibu home-owner... and Balyogeshwar with agya from his 'Master' to spread Knowledge.'

When I took over as his personal manager, one of my strategic objectives was to create alternative sources of income for him through business ventures so that he would no longer be dependent on the gifts he received, nor benefit improperly from donations made to Élan Vital. As my team and I made progress in this regard, he soon began to fancy himself as a successful businessman. This tendency was especially apparent whenever he signed his tax returns. Of course, he made all the appropriate expressions of disgust about the IRS taking such a hefty portion of his 'hard earned' (that's a joke) income, but he was also proud, in a cocky sort of way, that he was now a successful businessman with the tax returns and assets to prove it.

Your point is important because it demonstrates that he is capable of adopting and believing in an identity that is other than the one he was born into, if and when it suits his purpose.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:43:39 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Michael, you hit the nail on the head
Message:
You said: ''...he soon began to fancy himself as a successful businessman.''

I never knew him the way you did but I'm an observant old fag and that is exactly my take on his personality. Someone posted here that he reminded them of the guy who buys expensive suits and rents a chic suite of offices and begins to play-act at being the CEO of his very own company.

When he began to do his ''business presentations'' (pie charts and slide-shows - yuk) in the late 80s that's when my first drips started happening because he reminded me so much of the spoilt brat yuppies dashing about in the SUVs fellating their cell-phones and blaring their horns at old ladies who dared to hold them up.

My charitable take is that he is stuck in some sort of infantilism. Less charitably, I think he is a total phony. If he had not trampled on the rights of others so insouciantly he would simply be a pathetically pitiable impostor. The great ''Pretender.'' Walter Mitty.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:50:21 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: FA, please, pretty please,
Message:
put the at end of first paragraph since I forgot. Thank you, sweetie darling. I wish you absolute fabulosity.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:37:22 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: FA, thanks, you're a good sport NT
Message:
c
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 17:58:32 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: To la-ex OT
Message:
I finally answered your question way below about mj and therapy.

love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 05:39:29 (GMT)
From: ITMA
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Propagation takes off
Message:
From Elan Vital's website:

'CHILDREN ATTENDING - Children 8 years of age and older who have a genuine interest in Maharaji’s message and who are able to remain attentive for the duration of the event are invited to attend the event (in Portland) on March 18th and to watch the videos on the 19th.'

Now if only Maharaji hadn't turned all those lovely young seventies premie girls into single, childless women, he would have a lot more children to put into the machine.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 19:47:30 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: ITMA
Subject: Help needed in Portland and Amaroo
Message:
This via synchronized Email:

HELP STILL NEEDED IN PORTLAND
-----------------------------
Many opportunities to help with the event in Portland are still available.
Of special need are those able to arrive early to help with setup:
- Several people are needed to coordinate deliveries/pickups, and manage
the loading dock.
- A number of positions are available as truck loaders/unloaders before
and after the event.
- Additional people are needed under logistics manager's direction to
run errands and pick up miscellaneous items as needed during setup.
Other opportunities exist as well. If you are interested, please reply
to this message or contact Lorelynn in Portland as previously indicated.

AMAROO PARTICIPATION OPPORTUNITIES
----------------------------------
Opportunities to help out in Amaroo are also available. All volunteers
planning to do so will need to have a Business Visa rather than a Tourist
Visa.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:17:11 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Postie
Subject: Business Visa?!?
Message:
When they're not going to get paid, why is a business visa required? Does anyone know the workings of the Australian requirements about this?

If EV is classifying their volunteer help as some sort of staff that causes them to be viewed by the Government as being in the country on 'business', is there any accompanying requirement that they actually receive payment for their 'work'?

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 10:47:35 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: ITMA
Subject: So what have we here?
Message:
I would have thought with all the trouble brewing up at the moment over the Cult-Sponsored Paedophile (Jagdeo), they would have been a little more sensitive about inviting children to the latest series of Captains Rawats drivel filled ramblings.

I wonder if the Captain has another 'Special Mahatma' lined up for them?

His last one wasn't too successful in this area.

Anth, pass the barf-bag and the baseball bat.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 11:32:09 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: My take
Message:
is that there is not so much attendance these days anymore, and he's about to do ANYTHING not to discourage anybody from coming ....
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 15:35:42 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Filling empty seats
Message:
It's gotta be hard to be an important 'Speaker' and have to choose between playing the smaller clubs, dropping the cover charge and adding 'Ladies Night', or encouraging people to bring their children. But the show must go on I guess...
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 15:55:50 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Sounds like being forced to go to church
Message:
Yes, I wish I was 8 years old so that I could go and listen to Capt. Rawat's rant. This is actually a very smart move. Most kids who were forced to attend Mass every Sunday, as I was when I was going to church, promptly quit attending as soon as they were able to do so and ran as fast as possible in the opposite direction.
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:37:46 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: This is not a new thing
Message:
Children 8 years and over have been allowed in for a few years now to combined pwk and aspirants talks, aspirant talks and intro talks, if they can be quiet, and have an interest.

There has been a push over the last year and a half in getting a percentage of younger people who have received the techniques participating.

It does not appear that there are a great many of these 'young bloods'.

C

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 05:49:37 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: ITMA
Subject: Confirmation of dates
Message:
I thought it was the 17th & 18th.March. Saturday & Sunday.

Please confirm.

Thanks,

Curious George

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 16:39:13 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Here's the Portland info
Message:
Maharaji has accepted an invitation to speak to people who have
received the techniques of Knowledge and to those preparing to
receive Knowledge at an event in Portland Oregon, USA at the
Arlene Schnitzer Concert Hall on Sunday, March 18th, 2001.

On the morning of Monday, March 19th there will be an opportunity
for a Knowledge review for those who have received the techniques
of Knowledge.

In the afternoon of the 19th, the event will continue for people
who are preparing to receive Knowledge and for those who have
received Knowledge, with the North American Premiere of new
'Foundation videos'.

These four new videos contain entirely new material, written and
produced to present the foundations of Knowledge and Maharaji's
message.

Registration will begin on Monday, March 5th, at 6pm Pacific
time. Enough seating is available for all guests, so you can
make your travel plans immediately!

Full information is available at http://events.elanvital.org
and at local events.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 16:50:27 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: wwilliam@kumc.edu
To: Postie
Subject: To Postie
Message:
Postie,

Please email me. I have a question about the Portland program.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:23:28 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: More tapes
Message:
I have just again been in my old box
where i keep all my D.L.M tapes and magazines
And i found two tapes with satsangs from western and india
mahatmas,
4 hours crying whispering dripping devotion ,taken from a
festival 77 or 78 .
I hope i can get some of this on the forum
this is really something for all , there have been there
The whole feeling at the event are present in these tapes
really a flashback.

Ulf

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:57:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Sounds like a few real doozies
Message:
Thanks, Ulf. The last tape was really so important.

Appreciate the effort.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 22:25:01 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim and ulf and all
Subject: i have the entire set from both kissimmee 78 , 79
Message:
i never play them, but i have them faithfully labeled and logged and stored in one case with all my other premie paraphernalia. could they be of use?
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 01:52:28 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Anyone remember the 'killer' satsand in Kiss...?
Message:
Does anyone remember which year the maha gave that 'killer satsang' at Kissimmee?
I think it was one afternoon, about midway through the week.
He was telling everyone how they were the scum of the earth, and everyone was a liar, a no good devotee etc..

Many people got completely freaked out by that one...I remember I stumbled back to my tent half numb, and went to sleep for the rest of the day...

Anyone remember that one?
It would be quite interesting to listen to it these days....

Please don't throw those tapes out...

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:41:04 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: It was on monday--nt
Message:
dghkd
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 03:23:41 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Anyone remember the 'killer' satsang in Kiss...?
Message:
i 'm sure the one yyou mean is on my set. i'm trying to remember which year it was, too. the first year, my son was an infant 4 weeks out of birth and we stayed in a tent on the side of camp over to the side of the group showers. the second year he was just turned one and walking, talking and feeding himself, and we stayed on the opposite side of camp furthest from the showers. facing the stage, year one would have been far to the right of the stage, year two, far to the left. i think the devastating afternoon yell-a thon was year one, 78, because i seem to recall spending time in the childcare tent with my newborn in a snugli, watching the stage show on a tv monitor, whereas year two, there was no need. he was much more self sufficient and the tent was enough of a home base for all of us that i didnt need to go to the childcare tent for respite.i'm not throwing anything out. that was my life, in those ridiculous things.
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 12:15:24 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Anyone remember the 'killer' satsang in Kiss...?
Message:
G,day Janet,
My wife went to that heavy duty program in kissimee.I remember when she got back home to Australia and remarked how heavy M had been about relationships etc.My daughter went with her and she was 10 months old.She was born in January 1979 so it must've been in 1979 about October.

Cheers Aussi Ji.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 08:57:48 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: hans jayanti 79--week of nov 9th- had to be
Message:
my son was born oct 6th 78 so he's 3 mos older than your daughter. if your daughter was 10 mos old at HJ 79, my son was a year and a month.
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 17:16:52 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Killer Satsang....it's started a beautiful day...
Message:
The sky was blue with puffy clouds--a hot, but perfect afternoon for him.

He said what right do we have to ask anything of Goomraji, that we were the worst of the bunch, so pray to Goomragi for help, because we were the worst of the bunch, help me more. He said who were we to ask anything of Goomraji or even look at Goomragi!!!

Then we had music!

But I remember feeling like so much shit, I wasn't perfect, like him. The lard of the universe.

I think I have the tape too.

I have a tape of the Merv Griffin show. Haven't listened to it in quite a while. I don't even know if it's playable....

Everyone, don't throw your tapes and shit away!

Love,
Cynthia

Between my computer and server, and maybe this server, I have been having a lot of trouble posting...we shall see this time...

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 01:57:38 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Also, can a digitized audio tape be put on EPO?
Message:
another question:

can we digitize the audio cassette tapes and have them available on the EPO site for anyone to play portions of?

I can digitize the tape onto a mini dv tape from a digital camcorder....I'm wondering if that can be put onto the EPO site easily...might prove very interesting to listen to some of the old rants and raves from the maha himself, and then see if it looks like it was a 'cult' or not...

It might really jog a few memories and help put some things into perspective...

La-ex

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:11:27 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk
To: Ulf,janet,la-ex, Cynthia
Subject: I'm willing to transcribe the texts
Message:
... well, what's the point of getting a first-class pass in Pitman Advanced Typewriting if you can't put your skills to good use?

Send me a copy of the relevant tapes (the Kissimee '79 one sounds like a good starter) and I'll get to work.
(email above)

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 21:53:19 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I'm willing to transcribe the texts
Message:
My tapes are not from Kiss , so you shouldt ask Janet for that

the tapes i recorded myself during the event
and it is not M speaking
I think they are before Kiss
but i did not write when or where on the text label
( Times and places where not importent back then )
they are from that time when we all was saying B.S.S.M.K.J.
after each satsang.

But they really give a clear picture off the madness
And if people could hear them ``live `` i think you wouldt
really freak out ,, it is very very divine sick.
So much mindfuck ,, and so many honest people
Makes you sad and very angry.

Anyway Joe will get them in 2 or 3 weeks
perhaps he want you to help with the typewritting

Thanks Ulf

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:14:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: You're next, Maharaji (Part 1)
Message:
Here's this weekend's front-page Globe and Mail article about a much smaller cult leader than the Hamster, Shyam (pronounced 'Showm'). I knew some people who were into him years ago. Indeed, one of our firm's articling students is an old hippie who still has some tie with him.

The Globe and Mail, Saturday, March 3, 2001

Sex and the 'celibate' swami

Allegations of long-term sexual impropriety against an Indian guru with a largely Canadian following have rocked his tranquil ashram. JOHN STACKHOUSE reports from Kullu, in the shadow of the Himalayas, that Swami Shyam's flock has begun to shrink
By John Stackhouse

High in India's Valley of the Gods, there is only one god and today he is presiding over a crowd of Canadians, who believe they, too, can become god, if only they shed all they have known.

Most have already left comfortable homes in places such as Westmount, North Vancouver and Rosedale and taken vows of celibacy to focus their energies. Many have walked away from corporate jobs, academic careers and positions in their family firms.

Here at the International Meditation Institute, the very idea of family takes on new meaning as devotees shed their family names -- names such as Mulroney, Rosenberg and Reitman -- for a new Sanskrit identity.

It is all meant to bring one closer to the eternal state of pure-bliss-consciousness, Swami Shyam explains to the 70 people who have gathered in the open-air theatre of his ashram, or religious retreat, for the daily satsang,or teaching.

'In whose hands is your birth? In whose hands is your death?' he asks. 'In whose hands does your river flow?'

The people in the crowd nod appreciatively and return the smile of their white-bearded guru as he proceeds to chisel away at their upbringing. They are prisoners of materialism and ambition, and of carnal desires. But most of all, they are prisoners of their minds. The mind creates dreams, he explains. And dreams destroy.

'Mind is the dreamer, friends,' Swami Shyam says. 'And if you think you will find a true friend in the world who will be truthful, you will have no friend on Earth.'

Some of the devotees shift uncomfortably under their fleece blankets, for today's message is more than the swami's usual lessons of eternal bliss. Today's message hints at the more fleeting troubles of sex, money and scandal, and how they are tearing his following apart.

Over the past two years, Swami Shyam's largely Canadian following based in the mountain town of Kullu has dwindled amid accusations that the supposedly celibate guru has been engaged sexually for decades with his most attractive female devotees, and that some of his disciples in Canada used meditation centres in Montreal, Ottawa and Winnipeg to lure young women into a form of sexual devotion.

Swami Shyam strongly denied the accusations, but five women now living in North America and Europe have given detailed accounts of what they allege were long-running affairs with the man.

Those who have left the ashram believe that the swami has broken one of the main principles of their meditation movement -- that celibacy, in an ancient Hindu ascetic tradition, is essential to channelling bodily energy to a spiritual quest.

They also believe that the guru abused his authority over many followers and neglected others, including a group of Canadian youths who grew up at the ashram and were involved in drug abuse.

'There was a group-think, 100 per cent, and it's still going on,' said a businesswoman and former devotee who says she had sex with the swami a number of times.

She said she is more concerned about the ashram's devotional culture. 'The problem since time immemorial is that we continually search for a deity in human form that we can look up to so that we don't have to take responsibility for ourselves. My greatest lesson from Kullu was that no one knows what is better for me than myself. In Kullu, everyone has given up that right.'


At first glance, the ashram appears to be the ideal blend of East and West, with so much to comfort the body and soul that devotees have come to joke about their meditation centre as 'Club Med.'

It is located on a congested road that may have been bucolic 30 years ago but today carries the cacophony and diesel clouds of urban sprawl. On either side are grocers, Internet cafés and shawl merchants catering to the steady flow of Indian travellers who come to vacation in the area, called the Valley of the Gods for its proximity to the white-capped Himalayas.

Of course, the region is equally famous for its ready supply of hashish and marijuana, but those are influences the gated ashram has long tried to keep out.

On a landing built above the road and overlooking the raging Beas River, the devotees gather for their daily lesson. Afterward, a lucky few will be invited to attend a private meditation session with the swami or to join him for his afternoon tea.

The rest retire to long mountain hikes or a tennis match, and later to dinner parties in their renovated chalets, set amid orchards on the mountainside.

Some devotees have managed to bring their professions with them, using Kullu as a base for freelance writing, art design, filmmaking and, in one man's case, legal advice. A few have written books about meditation, adding to the institute's claim that it is a centre of higher learning, not just a retreat.

Blending spiritual quests with material needs has long been a tradition in India's ashrams, which are found in every corner of the country, wherever a self-styled guru can assemble some disciples. In the 1960s, the Beatles sought enlightenment at an ashram in the northern town of Rishikesh, under the guidance of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.

But sex scandals have become common as well, despite an ancient Hindu custom that calls for chastity among religious students and their teachers.

In 1980, Bhagwan Rajneesh, a guru with a penchant for Rolls-Royces and beautiful young women, moved his flock from India to Oregon. He wound up being convicted of immigration fraud and deported back to India, where he died in 1990.

More recently, a politically influential god-man, Sai Baba, has been accused of sexually abusing several European followers.

But no guru has won more Canadian admirers than has Swami Shyam, himself a former follower of the Beatles' Maharishi.

The swami's curious affair with Canada dates back to the early 1970s, when the former Indian public servant -- his full name is Shyam Srivastava -- visited Vancouver as a member of the Transcendental Meditation movement.

There, he gathered his first followers, largely well-off youths who were riding the tail end of the hippie movement. One was Scott Stirling, whose father, Geoff, the Newfoundland media magnate, was so impressed with the swami that he gave him a late-night spot on his Montreal station, CHOM-FM.

Soon, the swami had enough followers to return to India and build his own ashram, where he taught the young Canadians to shed their material-driven identities for a pursuit of enlightenment, the eternal state that he claimed he achieved in childhood. He placed particular emphasis on the concept of 'oneness,' that all people are one with god and the universe -- in short, that we all are god.

The pitch has enabled the swami to assemble among his followers Barbara Mulroney, the sister of former prime minister Brian Mulroney; the retail-chain heiress Ellen Reitman; Ellen Rosenberg, daughter of a wealthy retired Ontario judge; and two sons of retired general and Second World War hero Sydney Radley-Walters.

Many of the swami's devotees said they did not know of the sexual allegations until recently, and still do not believe them. Yet in almost every case, the guru has gained an extraordinary influence over their lives.

'I think I was just very naive,' said Ann Craig, a former devotee who asked that her maiden name be used.

She said she was so impressed by the swami that she did not think to question him when, she alleges, he invited her to his bedroom while staying in her home during a trip to the West in 1981. She was 41. He was 58.

'I was flattered,' Ms. Craig said of her alleged first sexual encounter with the swami. 'Very stupidly, I thought maybe I was unique. I was very surprised. I remember I was pretty overwhelmed. He just asked me to lock the door. It didn't seem odd. It was happening. I just accepted it, that it was an amazing happening.'

She then visited the swami at his Kullu ashram and returned every year until 1985, when the alleged sexual liaisons stopped. 'Every time I went to India, it would always happen at least once,' she said. 'I can honestly say this is somebody I loved.'

Other women said they, too, fell in love with their spiritual guide and saw his alleged sexual advances as part of their development. But like Ms. Craig, the women interviewed said they eventually discovered that they were not the only ones.

'I never understood why it needed to go that way,' Ms. Craig said of the alleged sexual encounters. 'I once asked him and he said something about divine will, that he was a puppet at the end of the string. That was the only explanation that he gave.

'But he insisted it be kept secret. He said he would be crucified if the others found out, that it would never be understood.'

Although she continued to return to the ashram until 1998, she did not reveal her alleged affair to anyone, especially not to her two teenaged children, who had gone with her to Kullu and stayed until 1999, living off a $110,000 trust fund from their father. (A third child did not go to India.)

Only last summer did Ms. Craig's daughter, now 34, tell her that she also had had an affair with the swami, starting around the same time as her own ended.

'I saw him as god, so did all the people around me,' Ms. Craig's daughter, who asked not to be identified, said in a letter to other former devotees. 'It was a belief stronger than any in my life. I somehow by some outrageous serendipity had stumbled upon Jesus here in 20th-century India and I would do anything for him because he was the guardian of my soul, the one being in this fragmented universe who would be for my life and evolution.'

Other women who say they have had sex with the guru said it never appeared seductive, that it was most often part of a meditation session in which he would request one of the devotees massage him.

'I believed him to be greater than a human being, that he couldn't possibly be subjected to human desires,' said the businesswoman, who asked not to be named.

'There was no indication that he was a typical man, a Western man. He didn't handle it like a normal Western relationship. There was no seduction or courtship or attention made in normal ways that we're used to. I was able to say, 'Oh, he's not a normal human male, he's a sort of deity. And whatever he does is always for my evolution. He's making me one with him and his consciousness and awareness.' '

A Montreal women, who similarly asked that her identity not be revealed, said sexual contact began on her second visit to Kullu, when the swami invited her to his private room at night and asked her to remove her underwear and lift her skirt.

'It was often a quickie,' she said. 'He told you that he was purifying you, so you thought that this was the purpose of the sexual intercourse. He constantly created in us a sense of awe toward himself. For me, it was always the impression like he was having a cup of tea, he appeared to remain emotionally uninvolved, and then he would go back to reading his book or to some other activity.'

Esme Hendrick-Wong, a Toronto textile merchant now based in Singapore, said she came to believe that it went much further than private sexual encounters.

Although the swami never approached her for sex, she said, she walked into a meditation session in the late 1980s and saw him rubbing his feet on one of her friend's exposed breasts. At least 20 other women were in the room, she said.

'From my conversation with her [the friend], she thought this was great,' Ms. Hendrick-Wong said. 'In private, it was open knowledge that he got massages, but I believe everybody should have massages. It's therapeutic. In no way did I think the massages were sexual.'

How the swami gained such mental power over his devotees -- most of them well educated, financially comfortable and free from any sort of substance abuse -- is a matter of interpretation.

Some women say they were attracted to him, to his soft eyes, gentle humour and white beard that flows like a mountain glacier across his chest.

Some say he manipulated them, pampering them with favours one day and then belittling them the next, especially at the satsang,where devotees take turns on a 'hot seat' on stage next to the guru, who questions their spiritual thinking in front of the others.

Many also say they found comfort in him, an escape from troubled childhoods or marriages, or a lifetime of neglect. 'If you have to put one thing in common with all of us, we all came from an unhappy family life,' the businesswoman said.

But there was more, she continued. 'I watched him. I scrutinized him for three years before I was convinced of who I thought he was. He never seemed to falter. He really seemed to have something most people did not have. I had come to an understanding that he was greater than man, that he was god on Earth.'

In every part of the ashram and every chalet, the swami's portrait can be seen on walls and mantels, next to espresso makers, even on bedside tables where a loved one's picture might be more appropriate. Some followers carry his picture in lockets. One woman boasted of writing a cheque to him for $25,000 because she loved him so.


On a chilly morning, the devotees sit around kerosene heaters, some bundled in Lands' End designer wear, awaiting the swami's entrance. A video crew gets ready to record his every word, which will be meticulously catalogued in the ashram's library of his thoughts. Several followers also prepare to take notes during his teaching, to review at night.

In the front row sit his wife and five grown children, perhaps a sign of family solidarity since he has not shared a house with them in nearly 20 years.

Swami Shyam originally agreed to an interview on the condition that specific questions about the sexual allegations not be asked. Then, when the date of the interview was changed, he cancelled and wrote an angry e-mail.

'I, being the lover of the universe, am supposed to love all,' he wrote. 'But I have my own bathroom and have not to put my pee-stick into the pee-pots of women or try to abuse a minor who has been involved in experimenting in all that which young people are taught to do by certain members of their own group, where they are experimenting and smoking hash constantly.'

He wrote that he would never reveal the names of drug abusers, but felt that they were making him the target of a smear campaign.

'Sex is something that nobody sees, thus anyone without seeing anything can say, just by hearing something from someone,' he wrote. 'You also fall in this category. You have not seen me abusing anyone who just wanted to see what this sex is. Do you not know what sex is? I have five children and know what sex is. And who are the people who have produced children by me? Only my wife.'

He signed the electronic letter: 'With lots of love and appreciation for your half-intelligence, Swami Shyam.'


At satsang,the swami emerges on stage, hands folded politely toward the audience as he approaches a throne-like chair positioned in front of a black circle on a wall, an object that is meant to focus the mind in meditation. He smiles and bows his head to familiar faces, and greets newcomers like a teacher on the first day of school.

Then, once a devotee has placed a cup of steaming tea at his side, he begins to talk. Without notes or interruption, he will speak for more than an hour about the idea of dreams and dreamers, weaving together musings on the earthquake in Gujarat state, the big Hindu festival known as the Kumbh Mela, and Bill Clinton's departure from the White House.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 07:45:06 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're next, Maharaji, Great information Jim
Message:
Another good example of how power over the minds of others under the guise of devotion is so easily abused.

Absolute power absolutely corrupts, so many of these bastards are
are guilty of the same abuses.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:43:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ***Y'ALL SHOULD READ -- AMAZING PARALLELS***
Message:
The cloning story's only marginally relevant but this one about Shyam is close, real close.
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 07:19:46 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yup... just change the names - so familiar nt
Message:
wowowowowow
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:14:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're next, Maharaji (Part 2)
Message:
While meditation may be the swami's secret to life, he also apparently watches a lot of CNN.

The crowd laps up his every word -- one moment gasping at his deep thoughts, the next laughing at his jokes. There is no sign of dissent, except for the dwindling numbers. Where 200 or more people once vied for a seat close to the stage, there are now one-third that many, and several are people who have been here since the 1970s. It is hard to imagine where else they would go.

The schism is something the swami seems only willing to discuss in parables, today in the story of his own dream.

In the dream, he says, invaders bent on destroying his following are about to storm the ashram. Although they bear arms, he tells the devotees to allow them to come, to breach the gates -- and then to smash their heads with rocks. The invaders are too close to fire, he explains, comparing the ensuing carnage to Pol Pot's Cambodian genocide in the 1970s.

This sudden burst of violent metaphor from the preacher of pure-bliss-consciousness seems to startle the crowd, but there is an explanation. The real danger, the swami says, is human ego, which of course must be transcended if one is to reach bliss.

Dan Chernin, who acts as general manager for the ashram, later plays down the dream sequence, saying he did not interpret it as a metaphor for war within the following.

He prefers to attribute the dissent to 'a few bad apples,' most notably a group of younger Canadian devotees who grew up in Kullu and became heavily involved in the local drug scene.

'The rift may be a rift, but the environment at least has been purified, in that the drug situation is gone,' Mr. Chernin said.

He believes that some of the sexual allegations were concocted by the same group.

'We don't stand for that,' he said. 'We're working on a level of evolution that happiness comes from oneself, that one's nature is immortal. . . . Our way is not looking for gratification through the senses.'


The son of a wealthy Cape Breton developer, Mr. Chernin was among the first to latch on to Swami Shyam when after university he travelled to Vancouver with Scott Stirling, who was a friend. Mr. Chernin was also with the first group to join the swami in Chandigarh, the Punjab state capital, where the guru lived, and then in Kullu, where they built the ashram.

By the 1980s, the ashram had grown from a collection of a few dozen rich kids to a large following of middle-aged professionals who increasingly wanted to escape the West's rat race.

But some families also started to grow worried about relatives there and alerted Indian officials in the hope of getting them to leave.

Hume Wright, a prominent diplomat in the 1960s, visited the ashram to try to persuade his daughter, Sheila, to come home. The woman was raising her young daughter at the ashram, where like other children there she was home-taught by various devotees.

According to Mr. Wright's son, Blake, who lives in Nova Scotia, the retired diplomat liked Swami Shyam, but at one point shouted at him for keeping his daughter and granddaughter in Kullu, and then returned to Canada alone. The elderly man, who was terminally ill, eventually committed suicide outside Ottawa.

'Obviously, his [Swami Shyam's] power to attract people and keep them was far beyond anything we could have imagined,' said Blake Wright, who filed a complaint with the Indian High Commission in London but received no reply.

Another West Coast devotee, whose son grew up in the ashram and then tried to commit suicide after the family left, said he realized only after returning to Canada the psychological control the swami has over his followers.

'The man had a power to show me spaces I had never seen before, not on drugs or anything. . . . I was in love with him, like a schoolgirl.'

As the guru's following grew, devotees were allowed to return to the West and open meditation centres as a way of spreading his techniques, and to bring new recruits to Kullu.

After opening one such meditation centre in Montreal, Jean Bouchart D'Orval, a former Hydro-Québec engineer, said he discovered the power he could exert over his own students, whom he was soon seducing.

'The moment you set up and start speaking you have a special connection. You have a special air,' he said. 'People project their own energy, their own greatness, on the one who's sitting in front of them. This energy is impersonal, but it's the easiest thing in the world to take it personally and to follow up with personal relationships. . . . I don't know how many people I would have been involved with, because with many of them I was only flirtatious.'

In 1993, after two women wrote to Swami Shyam to complain about Mr. D'Orval's behaviour, the guru reprimanded him during a visit. 'He said these are things animals do. He referred specifically to bulls and bears, that this is what they did. He said I should save my energy. That was one of his favourite lines he gave to men.'

Mr. D'Orval was allowed to continue to teach meditation.

Some of the women who stayed in Kullu said they felt they could not leave, even as they heard more rumours about what had gone on in the swami's private room.

For those who thought of returning to Canada, the Montreal woman said, 'he creates the illusion that you're failing, like you're going to hell and that you've been to heaven.'

Although she said she was first involved sexually with the swami in the early 1980s, she stayed off and on until 1998, feeling at times like a psychological prisoner. 'At times, I hated myself. I hated life.'

In 1994, she was suicidal. One night, she sealed her chalet's windows, took a handful of Tylenol and went to turn on her gas stove. But she stopped herself, not for fear of death, she said. She was afraid her suicide would malign the ashram.

'I thought and was made to believe that such actions would make me incur the worst karma that one could incur and I would carry it from incarnation to incarnation,' she explained. 'Like a lot of women there, I needed attention, I needed love, I needed help.'

Rumours continued, but in the spring of 1998, two separate events shook the community.

First was the revelation that one of the original members, acting as an investment adviser to other devotees, had lost $4-million of their money through speculative investments.

The ashram responded by charging a daily fee for satsang, in the hope of raising funds for some of the victims. But instead the levy created a new sense of division between wealthy devotees and those who came to Kullu only with enough to live on.

Then came a suggestion that devotees should not talk publicly about the bizarre drowning of a young Montreal woman in the nearby Beas River. The woman had been travelling in India and stopped to visit a family friend at the ashram.

'Someone said swami told everyone not to speak of this,' Ms. Hendrick-Wong said. 'That smacked of total control. Something definitely had changed there.'

Local authorities did not link her drowning to the ashram -- a tragic number of young Westerners die, often from drug abuse, in the area -- and the Canadian High Commission later wrote a letter of thanks to Mr. Chernin for his work in getting the woman's body to New Delhi so that it could be returned to her family in Montreal.

For all that has happened at the ashram, many of the dissidents continue to respect Swami Shyam's powers.

Ms. Hendrick-Wong considers him 'psychic.' Warren Taffel, a retired landscape designer in London who once led the swami's British wing but is no longer a follower, said he still thinks that the man 'has a line to supreme knowledge.'

'I had never found myself in the presence of a man who knew answers, and to a great extent I haven't changed that view,' said Mr. Taffel, who has left behind a rented house full of possessions in Kullu.

Ms. Craig disagrees, as she watches two of her children, now in their 30s, and many of their friends struggling to rebuild their lives in the West.

One young woman she knows in British Columbia is on antidepressant medication. Another young woman, who has relocated to the southern United States with her parents, still struggles with North American life, complaining of nightmares from her Kullu experiences and often unable to attend classes at college.

The swami's faithful deputies believe that in each case the parents are to blame. After all, they were the ones who chose to raise their children in a small Himalayan town, to keep them out of school and to ignore the fact that cheap drugs were easily obtained, before dropping them into North American society as young adults.

Some of the parents admit that perhaps they were naive. 'In a way, it was the end of a dream because I actually thought that my children would be safe, that they would follow their souls. We all did,' Ms. Craig said.


Back in Kullu, the few score people who stand behind Swami Shyam see light beyond the darkness of a community that has, in a way, turned on itself. Those who remain believe that they can now return to their original pursuit of enlightenment, unencumbered by charlatans and passers-by who at the height of the ashram's popularity may have diluted its strength.

'We're still driving on the road to Nirvana,' said Stephen Aitkin, 47, a technical artist from Ottawa who divides his time in Kullu between meditation and serving clients through the Internet.

As satsang floats into its second hour, the guru of pure-bliss-consciousness remains seated cross-legged in his chair, working busily through a string of prayer beads as he weaves deftly from humour to insight, from CNN to Freud, carrying his enraptured audience with him.

One gets the impression that he could talk like this for days and no one would leave, but eventually, with lunch time nearing, the guru begins to sum up his thoughts on the deceit of dreaming. He offers his own denunciation, perhaps a code for the invaders rattling his gates.

'Peace is not in wine or whisky. Peace is not in smoke,' he says before softening his voice to a whisper.

'Peace is in your life, eternal, unmoved. That is god. That I am.'

And with that, he is gone.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:12:39 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How do people without arms practice Knowledge?
Message:
This has always had me stumped! (Sorry, sick pun)
I was reminded of this constant niggling doubt of mine, by an amusing interchange between moldy warp and TED Farkel, in a thread below, about how whales practice K!
But this is a serious matter…..M has always claimed that Knowledge is for everyone, regardless of race creed or culture etc. etc. Even the blind can see, even the deaf can hear, blah blah, and it always bothered me…..What if you don’t have the use of your fingers, hands or arms, for whatever reason, and there could be many? How would you practice the first two techniques?

I have rationalised this to myself over the years with the understanding that the physical aspects of the techniques are just the gross outer form, just aids to focusing the attention, which is the essence of it. But now we have Auto Knowledge, and as I have mentioned before, I attended one of these sessions last September, and all he shows now, now that he has made it oh so clear and simple, is exactly where to stick your fingers thumbs and tongue. That’s it, full stop.

So that only leaves the third technique, the attention to the breath, which is a widely used technique practised by countless other disciplines….and even that he gets upside down and back to front!…In = Up, Out = Down, just like a swing!!! Whaaaat?

Having seen all this I realised I could no longer recommend K to anyone, even to myself!

And this so-called ‘master’ who is there to guide you and inspire you and answer your questions and make sure you don’t run the wrong way…....Where is he? Nowhere you can find him! You can’t actually talk to him…. unless you’re very lucky, or have given vast amounts of money, or have made yourself indispensable in some way… but, for the ordinary premie, no chance. It’s a total farce! He is a lousy teacher of meditation and I stick my finger up and my tongue out!

Apart from that he is mostly ‘armless’( that's a sort of literary reference)
Kelly

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 18:51:09 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Answering your unsynchronized question
Message:
Dear Kelly,

Elan Vital has taken notice of your incredibly stupid question amid your otherwise vile, vicious, unsubstantiated, confused and, of course anonymous, comments on the internet, which both Maharaji and Elan Vital have had to endure, in a fashion that rivals the Christian martyrs, from negative people like you on the internet.

Elan Vital does not know the answer to your question, but Elan Vital will say that we think Maharaji has said, when he has had the chance in between not claiming to be God, that just like it is all right to be a multi-billionaire and still have the experience of Knowledge(TM), arms are unnecessary to have the experience of something that is internal and not subject to outside manipulations. Technique Number One(TM) (formerly known, in the terrible, ancient Hindu period, as 'light', can easily be acheived by running two or three times at full speed, head first, into a brick wall. Arms are unnecessary, and in this case, actually can get in the way.

Elan Vital, in a blissful example of extreme synchronicity, also realizes that the same method can be utilized for Technique Number Two(TM), only Elan Vital believes Maharaji suggests hitting the side, instead of the front of the head, to create the celestial music. Techniques 3(TM) and 4(TM) do not require arms, due to the supreme kindness of Maharaji, and his love and care for his devotees and their cranial areas.

However, Elan Vital and Maharaji are most concerned with armless PWKs and their inability to complete and sign checks. Although this was particularly a problem in the past, during the period of DRUG CULTURE, now, Elan Vital strongly encourages donations by credit card debit to avoid any problems resulting from the lack of arms.

We hope this answers your confused questions.

Sincerely and in synchronization,

Elan Vital

ELAN VITAL: ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971, AND NOT HARBORING CHILD MOLESTERS SINCE MID-2000!

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 21:40:24 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Joe. I'm not negative, I'm not anonymous,and I'm
Message:
not, I repeat, not, negative. No No Non, absolutely NOT.
But why does no-one take me seriously? This was a serious question, and one that I think reflects my ability to retain a modicum of objectivity in the midst of totally synchronised brainwashing?

You EV spokespersons, do you have any training in the psychology of cults and their subtle manipulation processes. Which, of course are not deliberate and contrived, not planned in any way. The whole point is that every member is subtly conspiring, in an unconscious conjoined way, to maintain the delusion. They're actually participating in the conditioning, whether they know it or not. I've only just begun to understand that...

But, in the meantime, who in their right mind could believe a meditation technique that involves sticking your thumbs in your ears to hear the celestial harmonies which are always playing within you anyway? Answer; ME, for one! but not no more.

Kelly

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:32:36 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: When are EV,Pauline,TED,eDrek,E.Windsor,...
Message:
Janice Wilson,Anth and the like going to get together and party?

There's some serious talent there, plus others as well...

You guys could write some seriously funny stuff, with some outrageous characters...

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:27:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Good question -- Janice is my favorite, btw
Message:
You're not serious, are you LAX? Janice is for real.

Ah, but then you knew that.

Didn't you??

And yes, Anth is for real too, believe it or not.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 15:41:36 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Just focus on the 'possibility' of arms. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:06:47 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Just visualize arms for the possibility of K, NT
Message:
h
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:42:25 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: For vegans - Visualize Whirled Peas! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 02:10:26 (GMT)
From: Thelma the Church Lady
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Whirled Peas and save the Wales with Sezyou NT
Message:
j
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 13:11:37 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Same as everyone else.
Message:
Close your eyes, bend your head back, open your mouth and start swallowing the bullshit.

It all runs on faith and grace- like the Emporers new clothes.

Shri Anthji

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 13:27:24 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I just sent you 2 e-mails, one for each hand! nt
Message:
Reply?
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 12:04:44 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: a stick of TNT could be the answer
Message:
G,day Kelly,
I could'nt resist.A stick of TNT placed near the head would definitely allow the experience of seeing intense light,hearing very loud noises in ones own head and the vibration would be quite powerful.One would also hear the sounds of sirens and see bright flashing lights as the ambulance arrives.I haven't quite worked out the nectar experience yet.Please excuse my warped sense of humour and if there is anyone reading this who does'nt have any arms then you will be probably out on a limb by yourself.Sorry there I go again.Please forgive me.I mean no disrespect to anyone who may be disabled.

Cheers Aussi Ji.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 12:18:55 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: How do you get a one armed Aussi out of a tree
Message:
Wave to him LOL
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 09:52:17 (GMT)
From: swami suchabanana
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: you don't need the techs r.e. inner light, sound
Message:
My dear Kelly,

During the 1990s, after Balyogeshwar [P.S.Rawat] started to give pwk knowledge reviews around the world, it finally became readily apparent that he was probably just a beginner yogi himself -- or at best a very incompetent instructor of the simple ancient yogic techniques. Indeed, Badyogeshwar just showed how to place one's fingers for the first 2 techniques. He never explained what to focus on within, or what might possibly be seen or heard.

In the 1970s, Fakiranand, Satyanand, Charanand and the other so-called mahatmas clearly explained and demonstrated these techniques much better. The light and sound techniques are also explained in a number of ancient Sanskrit scriptures, and the breath tech (or sat nam, 'true Name') is summarized in Hindu, Buddhist, and Sufi writings, as well as in other traditions, too.

One need not use one's arms or fingers to have an experience of inner light or sound. This is not rocket science, after all.

To experience inner light: Simply go into a quiet, darkened room, sit in silence, close the eyes, and focus one's vision intently (without the interruption of thoughts) on the space between the eyebrows to see a radiant golden inner light [aka third eye, or golden doughnut]. Indeed, it takes some concentration of mind, patience, and regular practice.

One may also experience inner light when praying intently and humbly to one's Creator [or whatever one deems the higher power or energy dwelling within us and every particle of material existence].

Similarly, to hear inner sounds/music: Sit still in a very quiet room or place, close the eyes, and focus your concentration within, and simply listen to the sounds inside, just like Lady Madonna -- listen to the music playing in your head. haha! You like beetles, too? I used to play lead sitar for ex-leader of Long Dung and the Silver Beetles. [but band sometimes sounded like shit -- kind of like discourse of one I don't endorse]

Or, [not recommended] put your head next to a very large stereo speaker or guitar amplifier and turn up the volume all the way until you experience pain, and then some deafness. You will hear some ringing in your ears -- tinnitus. A quick but most painful method, however!

Perhaps it depends upon the individual, and one's sincerity or powers of total mental concentration, but I personally find no need or desire whatsoever to poke my eyes or stick my fingers in my ears. Light and sounds are always there.

Simply observing the flow of one's breath, and then gradually a slowing and vibration within that, too, lead to a most interesting state of consciousness and peace of mind - true. Some medical doctors and psychologists even recommend this to alleviate stress. Yes, I recommend breathing most highly for staying in one's physical body!

If one needs more explanation of natural meditations, there are certainly many books on this subject. No need for guru worship, master/slave relationship, rupee or Rolex donations, prostrations, gyrations, or drug-induced hallucinations.

Some people also report inner light during sexual climax, too! Yes, tantra can be a most blissful sport of kundalini energy, too, haha... You have lingam or yoni, yes? Find willing partner. Can be much fun, too, for householder. Male should be careful to retain sperm, however; otherwise Yogi Bear make BooBoo. Myself, I am too old for such things now.

You want quick simulated experience of nectar? Honey is sold in stores, too. Also tastes so delicious in hot chai. ha ha

Well, this old swami has to go now -- am very late for samadhi tonight. I have rendezvous to keep with my dearly Beloved.

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 13:34:00 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: swami suchabanana
Subject: Swami ji will you accept me as your disciple?
Message:
You make so much more sense than my last guru!! baba baba baba
prostations at your smelly feet
Kelly
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:35:13 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: no problem. I dub thee 'ToeJamanand'. Blessings:
Message:
om hari hairy Xmas, home shanty Merry Mithras,

hari phi slamma jamma, Harry ramma in pajama,

jai chitchat anon, Jay sat, shit, and on...

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 21:58:51 (GMT)
From: ToeJamanand
Email: None
To: Swami suchabanana
Subject: Where's your ashram? I want to dedicate my life nt
Message:
2u
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 22:48:24 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Toejamanand
Subject: Directions to the temple:
Message:
My dear Toejamanand:

My humble ashram is not of this physical world. But to access it anytime, here is the key to the entrance:

The forehead of human being is also referred to as the 'temples'. So, just enter the 'temple' of Almighty Lord through the 3rd [or divine] eye. Bingo, you are at the front door, ok? Then silently observe the light within, first sparkles and swirls, then a golden doughnut, then a brilliant white ray shooting out of the center, getting brighter and brighter, and maintaining your focus go through the center, and maybe then you will see the chakras [yes], then the 1,000 petalled lotus, and then finally you will arrive and be in my ashram - a most blissful and spacious abode. (No need for videos; the real video is already going on inside. And definitely no need for checks or fart-cards.)

Also, please do not be frustrated if you don't reach ashram right away; just keep trying -- it is so near, yet so far. Lastly, love and reverence for swami is ok, but please not to direct dedication of life to me -- save that for almighty Lord within; I am not false guru.

Blessings.

Peace and lentils,

Swami Suchabanana

PS Please not to expect Rolls Royces, blondies, jets, Patek Phillipe watches, etc. Real spiritual teachers and saints do not live that way, sucking the lifeblood like leeches from their devotees. Also, not to worry -- in my humble shelter, you will not be given agya to kill anyone, or take rap for hit-and-run, procure sex slaves, divert funds, or do p.r. cover-up and spread falsehoods to others. Ok?!

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:29:57 (GMT)
From: Toejamanand
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Directions to the temple: I've found the way!
Message:
It's indescribably beautiful, and you are so humble and true and divine ...I simply must put you on a pedestal and decorate you with flowers and tell all my friends about you....OK?
Humble salutations at the smelly feet,
Kelly
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:43:31 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Toejamanand
Subject: sorry,no money for shoes.Mishler,where my socks?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 04:02:53 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Now lets don't get up in arms about this minor
Message:
little detail. (oooh!) see because, and I am going to go out on a limb here (ouch!) and say that Mararaji is the Lord and he can suspend reality and procedure for those unfortunates.

He has this supernatural power to change the rules when needed making it possible for them to experience these techniques magically just the same as others with out having to poke themselves in the eyes and ears.

Isn't he clever , a real hands on kind of guru when needed (I am through)

Brian being 'disarmingly' sarcastic

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 02:35:54 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: How do people without arms practice Knowledge?
Message:
It was considered to be service for someone to help another do the techniques. You neede to be authorised but.
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 22:21:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Maybe they just use their hands (nt)
Message:
ffffff
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 13:49:05 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Or their feet (nt)
Message:
toodle oodle oo
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 08:41:18 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's a joke! and I got it ! at last! LOL nt
Message:
haha
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 10:15:47 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: You know sound of one gland crapping?
Message:
plop plop plop goes the guru slop,
plop plop plop goes the guru slop

went to the dance, looking for a trance,
saw the fat kid, and I thought I'd take a chance

Oh, Bad man, Bad man,
Bad man, bad man,

you got me hocking and you rolled me,
hocking and you rolled me,

Bad man, bad man.

You know, maha should have been jazz singer -- 'cause he likes scatology so much!

dung dung dung, dung diddly diddly ca ca,
barf barf barf, wow, ain't he silly ca ca,
pee pee pee, he's got a little willy ha ha,
fart fart fart, smells his own piggly wiggly,
yaya...

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:18:28 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: all
Subject: And now there is one......
Message:
premie left that has decided to make the trip to Amaroo. The other six have backed out for various reasons. I believe he will back out, too. His good friend found a place outside of the compound and now he will be roughing it in a one-man tent for about $2000 (US) for the four days. Then the long flight home ($1500 US round trip) and back to tell the other 6 the same old stuff that they have been hearing all week at the old videos. Basically the same old shit, for about $5000 US, and they will all look and listen in amazement at how wonderful the things M had to say are, and try to share in his bliss. Of course, they will be extremely jealous that they did not go to hear these things first hand (but they will also be sitting on that $5000 grand US that they have hoarded into the piggy bank) and maybe after a while they will realize that it is all the same. Like a broken record. Stuck in place, going round and round and round and round.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 06:53:07 (GMT)
From: Tell Man
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: And now there is one......
Message:
WHY DON'T YOU FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF WHAT KN. REALLY IS SO 'YOU', JUST YOU, CAN GIVE AN EDUCATED OPINION INSTEAD OF ALL THIS TIME NOT REALLY KNOWING WHAT IT IS. PLEASE GIVE IT ANOTHER TRY. TALK TO KRISTEN ABOUT IT.

.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 02:55:00 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Just Goofiness
Message:
My recent posts have been so angst-ridden, I thought maybe for a change I'd share a giggle with you.

I was putt-putting around Denver in my 1970 Volkswagen bus today, shopping for a dinner party, Not a Latvian night, unfortunately - just regular folks. (But if any of you Denver exes ever want to get together, contact me; my husband is a chef and we're NOT vegetarians...)

Anyway, I was trying to listen to the radio but BOTH local NPR stations were doing fundraisers at the same time - really uncool! - so I started singing. Do any of you remember an old, Christian, upbeat-enough-to-gag-a-maggot, folk-rock tune called 'Allelu?'

Goes, 'Allelu, Allelu, everybody sing Allelu.
Give praise to the Lord for He is true;
everybody sing Alle-allelu!'

Try it this way, at full volume, in the privacy of your vehicle:
'Amaroo, Amaroo, everybody sing Amaroo.
Give leis to the Lard and he'll screw you;
everybody sing Ama-amaroo!'

Gotta keep yourself entertained in life...

Babs the often goofy

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 08:51:23 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: jai_choix@webtv.net
To: Babs
Subject: email me. where in denver r u? if i ever move back
Message:
i'd like to be friends. i miss the place. i hate los angeles.
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 06:10:03 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Jesus loves me two times twice
Message:
Jesus Christ is awfully nice.
I am little Jesus' lamb.
Yes, by Jesus Christ, I am.

How about a little lamb, new potatoes and asparagus with melted butter washed down with a velvety cabernet?

I emailed you.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:28:32 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: I liked that Babs , here's one 4U..
Message:

....Plastic Jesus

Plastic jesus

Riding on the dashboard of my car

Plastic Jesus gotta go

His magnet's ruined my radio

Riding on the dashboard of my car.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 07:20:27 (GMT)
From: Charles S.
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: You shoud check out the ''Jesus Dance'' page...
Message:
It takes a minute or two for the graphics and music to download, but it's worth it. The URL is:

www.jesusdance.com

Bin Liner, you might appreciate the lyrics.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:38:37 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: And another
Message:
Amaroo Blues
(with apologies to Shri shri Dylan)

Ooooooh, Mwaji
Can this really be the end?
Stuck inside a puptent,
With the darshan bluuuues again.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 07:04:45 (GMT)
From: aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: And another My Way(His Way)
Message:

My Way (His Way)
And now the end is near,
And so I face the final darshan,
My friends I'll say it clear,
I'll stay my case of which I am uncertain.
i've lived a premies life that's full of shit,
I travelled to each and every program,
and more,much more than this,I did it his way.

Regrets,I've had a few million,
but then again too many to mention,
I did what I was cohersed to do,
And saw it through without exemption.
He planned each chartered course,
Each ridiculous step along the byway,
And more,much more than this,I did it his way.

Yes there were times,I'm sure you knew,
when I bit off more meditation than I could chew,
But through it all,when there was doubt,
I ate it up and spit it out.
I faced it all and stood tall,
And did it MY Way.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 00:32:25 (GMT)
From: Andie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Not For Everyone
Message:
In my 16 years growing up as the daughter of two happilly married, succesfull, WONDERFUL premies, i can only say one thing...knowledge is not for everyone. For these two people, receiving knowledge was a way for them to reflect on their lives and past experiences without bringing other factors into it.

Everyone has a core to them, and when stripped of all material issues, some people are scared. If you have a certain image of yourself and suddenly you realize the true you is totally different, how are you going to cope? Usually running away seems to be the best answer. I can't blame you, I myself see that as one reason that I'm not going to receive knowledge. However, being able to have a way to get through their own struggles has let my parents find time and energy to help me with mine.

Also, I was not 'brought up' on Maharaji, although he was mentioned around the house from time to time, neither of my parents ever made my brother or me feel like receiving knowledge (which, by the way, is just that-knowledge of yourself and of life) was mandatory or even suggested. When we were old enough to start asking questions, they told us of their healthy, happy experience with knowledge, and that was that.

True, there are people that go overboard, devoting themselves to Maharaji, hoping he'll give them a better life (when the truth is only you can do that), but saying that all premies are like that is so unfair. Such a small fraction of premies have given them all a bad name; it's like saying that all African Americans listen to rap and live in the ghetto.

Though I doubt it will, I sincerely hope my perspective has some effect on at least one of you cynics. Thank you.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 15:06:01 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Andie
Subject: Not For Everyone
Message:

Andie,

good luck with your 'struggles'.

Abi

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 17:49:36 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Andie
Subject: Andie: can you tell a forum from a soapbox?
Message:
Just wondered..?

Both are, admittedly, social settings where opinions are expressed. A forum is designed for communication, a soapbox for preaching.

Thus, in the case of the former there is a civilised convention, observed by most, that when one intiates a discussion by starting a thread, one sticks around to deal with at least some the responses elicited.

Call it old-fashioned, call it courtesy or whatever - but 'hit-and-run' threads like yours, however civilly expressed, very often disguise more bile-per-paragraph than any outright flame-post. Perhaps you could prove this isn't the case by coming back to finish what you started.

BTW: Did you hear about Maharaji's own hit-and-run incident where he killed a cyclist and fled the scene? Any thoughts on that?

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:12:15 (GMT)
From: Andie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Andie: can you tell a forum from a soapbox?
Message:
So sorry I don't spend my every waking hour on this site. I haven't visited since my 1st posting, and now that i have, this is what i have to say: I don't see anything to respond to so far, none of the resposes I've gotten have been addressing anything contained in my thread. All I see is angry people telling me I'm wrong, and when people are that stubborn, what am I to say?
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 14:00:42 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Andie
Subject: Well done Andy.
Message:
You're on the way to becoming a disciple of the Living Perfect Master- Captain Rawat.

You're lucky you're not old enough to have attended any of Mahatma Jagdeo's special knowledge sessions for children- when he used to turn out the lights and sexually abuse them.

You can look forward to the rest of your life in a religious cult.

Don't forget, God is snot and snot is God.

Anth the doomed to hell for eternity.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:16:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Andie
Subject: Your whole family sounds fucked
Message:
You guys sound like superficial assholes, quite frankly. I don't care how young you are, your haughty indifference to the issues here suggests that whatever you've picked up whatever your mom's got. Too bad.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:10:13 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Andie
Subject: Hi Andie, I was polite to you and not angry NT
Message:
Have fun
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 10:28:44 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Andie
Subject: Prepare yourself for the worst Andie.
Message:
Your parents are in a religious cult, just like the Moonies, Hare Krishnas, Scientilogists, Rajneeshies, and all the rest of them. There's hundreds.

Captain Rawat is not a bona fide Spiritual Master. He is a cult leader who milks his followers for cash, sexually abuses them, and has big personal problems of his own.

It only works if you believe. Like the Emporers New Clothes.

For Christ's sake don't get sucked into it yourself Andie. Why don't you do what any self-respecting teenager would do- REBEL.

Print out Michael Dettmers posts about Maharaji's drunk driving, hit and run episode, sexual abuse of devotees, give them to your parents and ask them to explain.

They are living in cloud cuckoo land and I'd advise you not to join them.

Anth the first I heard this year.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 02:42:35 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Andie
Subject: not for anyone.
Message:
Andie Snofa,

Why do you keep changing names? Why don't you reply to answers to your posts? Are you a cowred? Because that is the impression that I get.

As for premies, they are all the same, brainwashed zombies, and I don't have a problem with that.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:00:18 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Andie
Subject: Multi-alias posting: Andie = Sonofa
Message:
Whoever you you are, please read the forum intoduction. Using multiple aliases to confuse is not welcome here.

I suggest you also read the 'journeys' section of the main site - you might discover why so many ex-premies feel the way they do about the man who has hoodwinked your folks all these years. In fact, simply by learning a bit more - stuff your mum and dad probably don't even know about - you too, might easily find yourself angered at the scale of M's deception and his off-stage behaviour, especially since your parents sound like decent people who deserve better.

Finally I recommend you consider answering the questions Anth/AJW asked your alter-ego Sonofabitch. Maybe ask your parents to ask how they feel about the issues raised. I can assure you there are some good friendly people here if you'd like to discuss your parents' cult objectively. However, unless you are willing to confront specific issues or show a little understanding of other people's cult experiences other than your parents, you'll find people here will lose patience pretty quickly. How interested are you?

Happy trawling...


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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 15:06:20 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: not working
To: Andie
Subject: Yes it is
Message:
but not the knowledge that Maharaji is teaching. The only technique I really have found worthwhile isn't even taught by Maharaji but did used to be taught by the old Indian Mahatmas. That is the old nectar technique, of course. It has good health giving properties and can alter the brain chemistry beneficially.

I'd advise also, autosuggestion, visualisation and several other techniques, not taught by Maharaji. This is all knowledge and I will teach it quite freely to anyone who wants to know.

I'd also teach another good technique - don't lose hold of good friends, you may regret it if you do.

So there's another technique of knowledge and it is for everybody at no cost what-so-ever. You don't keep such knowledge to yourself or try to make profit from it. Such knowledge is for the common good and will enrich anyone who passes it on.

P.S. My Hotmail addresses don't work. I've tried contacting Hotmail but that doesn't work either. Anyone else have this problem?

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 23:58:34 (GMT)
From: Uncle Bryan
Email: inoperatable@present.au
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Yes it is (sorry but OT.)
Message:
Do you 'ave any messages for me or what???

BTW, what does GCMG stand for?

Repectfully,

Bryzie.
Ps.Anything other than truth
on the Net is just a blob of
bovine exrement, or, foot in
mouth desease. Anon.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 18:43:03 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Yes, Sir Dave - Hotmail is fucked, try Yahoo NT
Message:
h
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 07:13:19 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Andie
Subject: Hi Andy, don't take any notice of the nasty people
Message:
here. Some of us are nice. Just like there are also nice and nasty premies. You were lucky that your parents were nice ones.

You say: ''In my 16 years growing up as the daughter of two happilly married, succesfull, WONDERFUL premies, i can only say one thing...knowledge is not for everyone. For these two people, receiving knowledge was a way for them to reflect on their lives and past experiences without bringing other factors into it.''

Well, Andie, see there's one thing that bothers me a bit about that and that is, when Maharaji first came to the west and for many years afterwards he said he was the saviour and god and that Knowledge was FOR EVERYBODY because it was the ultimate truth and that without Knowledge we could not be saved.

He's changed his tune over the years about that here in the west but most of the premies are Indians (millions of them) and they really do believe that he is god the savior and that Knowledge is the ultimate truth that will save you from hell and suffering and being reborn as a maggot and stuff like that.

So, in order to make nice people like your mom and dad feel comfortable with all those nasty contradictions, Maharaji has started saying things differently in the west from what he does in the east. This creates a lot of need for secrecy and lies and some of us nice people don't like lies and conspiracies.

I don't believe in criticising premies like your mom and dad because I really know that they are sincere and probably don't like to think bad of people. I prefer also to see the good in people too. And I don't have the right to judge anyone including Maharji.

So the way that I deal with it is to just have nothing to do with any fibs and other fudgignof the truth and just enjoy KNowledge on my own. The fact is that all your parents' success and happiness have come from the own hard work, efforts and probably because they have been kind and caring people who are rewarded with love and respect.

None of that good stuff came from Maharaji. Your parents are perfect without him and they would be better off not having to make excuses for him too. They would feel free and not embarassed about him or ashamed of his playing two games: one game for the Indians for whom he is god the savior and whose Knowledge is the absolute essential ingredient to be saved and then the other game that he plays with white people where he is ''only an inspritaional teacher.'' He really is only another televangelist type preacher out to make some money.

I am so happy for you that you have a loving mom and dad. Some of my best friends that I've had for 30 years are sweet, kind premies just like your parents and I would never dream of criticizing them. They also have kids your age and they are the most loving family and I completely trust and respect them.

I don't even suggest to them that they are silly to believe in Maharaji because it really is none of my business but I'm just telling you that some people like me, don't like lies being told about important stuff like happiness and god and self-knowledge so I don't have anything to do with people who tell those lies. My own son thinks Maharaji is a silly show-off and a conman.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:21:11 (GMT)
From: Andie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Hi Andy, don't take any notice of the nasty people
Message:
Thank you for being so kind. I hope you can understand that I find something amiss about your response. Both of my parents have been to several events held in India (where most of the premies were Indian), and neither ever heard Maharaji say anything about being God or all mighty or anything like that. And for everyone trying to tell me that my parents are keping Maharaji's 'terrible past' from me, thanx- but I have been told the truth many times. My parents agree that Maharaji hasn't always used the best judgement, but he's human. Even if you beleive he says he isn't, they can see that he is.
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:46:10 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Andie
Subject: Hi Andie, I honestly don't want to put you in the
Message:
position of defending Maharji to me. I really do not judge him and I am not angry at him and I don't want to try to change your mind or your mum and dad's. I don't have the right or the inclination.

Maybe I am wrong about what Maharaji says to the Indian premies' because I haven't been to India but I know I am not wrong about the India premies' ideas about Maharaji. Where I come from in South Africa, three-quarters of the population are Indians and I lived in an Indian ashram for two years which was a wonderful time of my life. To them ''guru is greater than God'' but I must admit that they have a different idea about what God is.

Unlike montheistic Christism which sees God as an invisible patriarchal ''Father,'' Hinduism sees the whole creation as God (pantheism) and some human incarnations (polytheism) as a spark of that and I have not yet found a better definition. I just feel leery about using the word ''God'' because it means so many different things to different people. Anyway, the Indian premies really do think of Knowledge as the knowledge of God within.

I don't really disagree with any of this and the only reason that I decided to part company with Maharaji is because I began to feel uncomfortable with the conflict this creates. He can be the ''Master'' easily in India and among the Indian ex-pats. It fits in with their attitude towards life and society but I began to find it embarassing living in the USA as I now do knowing that Maharaji is a god in India and an ''inspirational teacher'' in the west. It's too complicated and not open and honest.

Western society is not comfortable with the idea of a ''Master'' unless that person really is outstanding like Einstein or Beethoven or any of the great artists and musicians that we call maestro out of respect. It is very difficult to call someone a ''Master'' who really has made some terrible mistakes in the past and has never apologised for them. For instance a lot of the more angry people on this forum were very badly treated when they lived in the ashrams.

Like your mum and dad, I didn't really get hurt so I'm not angry either. But Maharaji has alienated more premies than he has kept in the west and he does not seem to think that their concerns are worth taking seriously. Anyway, that's none of my business. I just basically wanted to tell you that I don't really like the idea of preachers and ''masters'' and prefer to trust myself. But I bet you know about that already because it sounds like you are quite confident. Keep it up.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:55:30 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Andie
Subject: all the people who run the organization are
Message:
the ones who go back 28 years and more, the extremists who 'went overboard'( as you say) and became fanatics to the exclusion of all else.
we did not come to this as cynics. we came to it as idealists who believed we had found someone who knew how to bring peace to the earth in our lifetime. that was how he advertised it and that was how we heard of it.
our willingness was shamelessly used, exploited and taken advantage of. it was abused. in time, it was perverted to serve an entirely different purpose. it is for that we are cynical. if you believe marriage is sacred, but find over time that you have married someone who falls far below your ethics, morals, standards and conduct, it takes time to disentangle the high ideal you hold from the low character you espoused. you may be a long time in coming to the realization that marriage is still a high ideal but the person youre married to, is not, and find the resolution to end the marriage.
if you become terribly ill and seek a doctor, and place yourself in their hands to be treated for your illness, it may take a long time to reach the conclusion that they arent helping, and in fact may be incompetent and actually harming you. we are raised to believe doctors know what theyre doing, certainly that they know far more than we do about our illnesses. we expect pain and discomfort while ill. we may endure a long, long time like that, telling ourselves that he must be right and he must know what hes doing, before we reach a day when we simply can't go on with it any longer. it may take an act of life -defining courage and a decision to sever relations with that figure and to seek another, or seek no one but oneself, to get better.
we are in this kind of position with maharaj ji. we believed him. we trusted him. we thought it was our ignorance that was to blame , for a long time, before we reached the day when we just couldnt do it anymore. and since then, we have uncovered volumes of facts that mae it clear why we were suffering at his hands. he is like that incompetent doctor or that profound disappointment of a spouse.
it is not a matter of 'knowledge' being for everybody or not. maharaji doesnt own 'knowledge'. he doesnt even practice it. the techniques we were shown in the knowledge session are thousands of years old and can be taught by anyone.
'knowledge' is akin to 'marriage' or 'medicine', in my example. anyone can get married. anyone can claim to have a medicine to treat what ails you. marriage and medicine, in themselves, are high and serious things to enter into. they are valid and respected fields of human endeavor. but the label alone isnt enough to tell you whether they are good for you or even if they are trustworthy to approach.
and we have no laws to protect us from religious con men the way we do against bigamy, domestic violence, impersonating a doctor or practicing medicine without a license. and what laws we do have, maharaji has gone to great lengths, and made his honchos do likewise, to dodge, circumvent, dissemble and conceal from, to keep anyone who might go investigating him, from finding out.
is he god? is he just a guy?is the group a church? is it a charity?is elan vital just a group that invites him to speak? or is it his propaganda machine that does only what he orders it to?where does all the money go? its a non profit. so where are the public records for any contributor to examine???where does maharaji's money come from? he doesnt work. he doesnt collect a paycheck from any employer. he has no inheritance. his family hates him and certainly does not send him money.his money comes from spare-changing all his followers. what a way to live!unlike rock stars, he doesnt have to produce any albums or tour in order to keep the royalties rolling in.( or does he?) unike those artists,his product isnt available on the open market, where honest forces of supply and demand would reveal its worth in the free economy.unlike sports figures, he doesnt have to compete and play against others every week, to stay high in the public's admiration and earn the salaries.unlike celebrities, he hides from the media and denies all questions. makes no movies, tv shows, just drinks all day long and says whatever his 8th grade education prompts him to utter.
he's homophobic. he's racist. he's misogynist. he's sexist. he's a stoner.he's an alcoholic. he's promiscuous and adulterous.
he has never held a job.he has never had an employer. he has never had to report for work and take orders or be fired, and therefore, broke.
you know what hijacking a plane is. you know what carjacking a vehicle is. maharaji gets his money by jacking his followers.he demands what they have or else. and he gets it--or else. no one ever tells him 'no'. everyone else on earth makes mistakes. but not him. its flat out rationalized away.he killed a man in india, driving his car too fast. he got out and ran to the car behind him and ordered everyone out (thats a carjacking, right there) and sped off,and escaped the law.
still think he's a paragon of virtue? still see your parents the same way? this is what theyve been giving their lives to since before you were born. they can't bear to look at it for what it is.
but you can.
read this site. follow the links and read the other sites. then think awhile. by all means, come back and post again after you've taken it in.
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 03:39:35 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: excellent work janet, Bravo! the real thing (nt)
Message:
Oh yeah
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 10:13:36 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Read Janet's post! Clarity,insight,truth. (nt
Message:
ya ya!!!!!!!!
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:06:08 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: janet, you said a mouthful,girl. Bravo! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:16:21 (GMT)
From: ITMA
Email: guess who
To: Andie
Subject: You're as real as Elan Vital
Message:
Can't you guys (resident ex-premies) see that you're being had. All of these family members with made up lives are just a bunch of fairy stories. Probably written by the same person.

Or do you really think that this forum has suddenly taken on a concerned family theme? Of course not.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:21:30 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: ITMA
Subject: You're as real as Guess who?
Message:
Hello Carol I presume, Haven't seen you in awhile, are you going to the program when m gets here?
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 00:13:47 (GMT)
From: ITMA
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: I never touched her, your honour
Message:
ITMA = It's That Man Again.

Guess again.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:00:55 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: ITMA
Subject: Andie = Sazyou = sonofa =...
Message:
Could very well be. These posts have too much in common in terms of writing style, supposed outlook, themes, lack of response to responses, and timing. It seems fake to me. Maybe EV is nervous.
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:29:05 (GMT)
From: Andie
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Andie = Sazyou = sonofa =...
Message:
Your deductive reasoning skills amaze me. However, you're still wrong. Sonofa is my younger brother and Sazyou is my mother. We probably have similar writing styles, supposed outlook, themes because we've (suprize) lived in the same house for the past 12 years. I'm flattered so many of you guys have taken such an interest in the 3 of us, but just cuz we're related doesn't mean we sould be responded to as one person. Oh, and as for the lack of response, WE actually have lives -work, friends, pastimes, etc.- beyond a website. Thank you
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 02:55:04 (GMT)
From: Thelma the Church Lady
Email: None
To: Andie
Subject: Andie, we've also got friends, families and lives
Message:
away from this website but you have to admit that it is fun and hardly ever boring and it's got that edginess that comes form lots of frank open discussion. Ask your mum and dad if they can have frank and open discussions about Maharaji with their other PWK church lady friends. And yes, I know there are some not very nice people here but nice all the time would be so monotonous.
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 02:52:04 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: you sure?
Message:
Snofa says she is 16 year old girl. Sazyou is an old hag with lost of moola. I think snofa is Sazyou's daughter.
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 04:01:55 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: no, you could be right (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:50:05 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: luvy premie familymembers
Subject: You're as real as Elan Vital
Message:
So, if we're being had then own up. Cos personally I can't stomach much more nauseous gushings from Sonofa, Sazyoo et al. And yes to 'Andie' above who said she hoped she was having an effect on just one 'cynical' ex. Andie- you have made me even more cynical.
Moldy warp in impolite mode.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 13:15:55 (GMT)
From: Rev John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Lord's flock now a has search engine
Message:
I have been called from above to pass on this message to you all.

The Great Worldwide Linkup has been upgraded and now even has a search engine.

So now you can read and write contact messages to your brethren and also search for them too.

Amen.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:45:08 (GMT)
From: Suchabanana
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: AGYA's Role: From Adults to Mindless Infant Robots
Message:
Agya [the personal explicit direction/orders of the guru], and agya's use as a mind-numbing propaganda tool for brainwashing and total submission to m. as the absolute authority and superior power in this world, played a Huge role in breaking down the barriers of any sane person's sensibility, reasonable doubts, and aversion to even the most dastardly deeds ordered in the name of the almighty guru. Those who innocently come to knowledge and m. today are merely given a watered-down dose of agya -- yet reinforced weekly [but not daily and nightly] with the image of Big Brother hypnotizing them on a projection screen in a darkened screen in a cold and impersonal environment where he maintains absolute control of the situation.

Tens of thousands of adults, in what should have been the prime of their lives, actually submitted their innate intelligence and personal freedom and choices to the will of a pimply, greasy-haired teenaged Napoleon megalomaniac. This would not have been possible without a cumulative combination of synergistic factors: the orchestrated messianic 'Lord of the Universe' mindset which Prem Rawat and his minions routinely propagated and reinforced, as evidenced in m.'s countless satsangs [diatribes], Arti ritual [hymn of absolute adulation and submission], official media and publications, the enormous peer pressure and cult conformity, the cult commandments and rules, the bowing and prostation to his pictures and his person, the emotional and personal isolation many endured, the agonizing guilt trips, and the pretense that any effectiveness and experiences from the meditation techniques were somehow linked with him, etc.

However, this cosmology and transformation could not have been effectuated or complete without AGYA -- the guru's direct orders to the devotee[s]. Within the framework of the Rawat family's cult philosophy, the word of the Master literally becomes the final word, the ultimate worldly authority -- the powerful psychological device used in communication to relay and justify the various insatiable demands, habitual capriciousness, hypocrisy, inanity and insanity of any questionable m./organizational doctrines, operations, or shenanigans. Agya has also been ritually used as the measure and test of one's obedience, fitness, and devotion to the Master.

For instance, would Dettmers have done the deeds he performed - had it not been for m.'s direct agya? Perhaps not. [How about it, MD?] Similarly, when orders and demands were made of the premies, agya was routinely invoked by m. and relayed via m.'s mouthpieces throughout the premie hierarchy and pecking order of each community worldwide -- e.g. m. has stated that he needs a new plane, or m. says to forget about your jobs and families and that a true premie should only live to attend the festivals with one's Master, or we have been advised to tell you that it is preferable to leave cash or checks made out to m. in the darshan line [foot-kissing], or m. says you must [________fill in the blank] if you dare even call yourself his devotee...

When mahatma [instructor] Fakiranand [aka Mishra] and his companion went to bash in reporter Pat Halley's skull in August 1973 in a murder conspiracy of retribution [for publicly throwing a cream pie in m's face and thereby undermining a millenial 'Soul Rush' event at Cobo Hall in Detroit], do NOT think for a moment that it was some kind of a rogue operation [as the org's spin doctors concocted and quickly related to the shocked premies]. In fact, the hitmen themselves were under the distinct impression that they were simply following orders -- the will of the guru and his top-level organization. And, in fact, some very informed persons indicated and alleged at the time that the last telephone call between the hitmen and the DLM hierarchy before they left the Detroit ashram on their appointed rounds was with the young Rawat himself. Yes. Rawat himself. What did the honchos at DLM IHQ in Denver tell the hitmen to do? What did Rawat himself say, too? What was his actual involvement in this murder conspiracy and/or the flight from arrest and prosecution, as well as the subsequent coverup? When the hitmen left the ashram, they were single-minded and intent on their 'service', they were not afraid, and everything was being orchestrated by phone back and forth with DLM headquarters.

Yes, these are the eyewitness allegations and facts - and Mishra later gave his own account of the circumstances to Pat Halley regarding extortion and following orders. Was it m.'s agya? At least one eyewitness at the scene has said that Mishra was waiting outside by the getaway car and was actually left out of the loop during the final, carefully guarded, secret phone call at the Detroit ashram, which was taken by the other hitman involved. In his last remarks before leaving, Mishra told one bystander that they were going to Chicago that night. In fact, the hitmen fled Detroit after the attempted murder, then went to Chicago, where Mishra was then further aided in escaping the USA and returned to India, where he remains to this day - as a close devotee of another Rawat sibling, Satpal [aka Balbagwan ji], a rival satguru.

Why, then, did m. shortly thereafter pose in photos with Raja ji [in the And It Is Divine magazine] as the Godfather, and why was there the ritualized pie-throwing by m. at premie special events for several years thereafter? What Real Demons were actually being exorcised? Why was DLM directly involved in the aiding and abetting of the fugitives, an organizational cover-up and dissemination of lies, and the subsequent $10,000 payoff to Halley to circumvent any official investigation, lawsuit, or criminal indictment? WHO was really being protected? 'No cheat, no deceit', remember?! 'Satsang' means company of truth; yet, where and when did m. and his org Ever share Any truth or light on this matter? Was this EVIL deed and pattern establishing a precedent for the subsequent criminal response and mishandling of m.'s hit-and-run vehicular manslaughter [and the hush money payoff] a decade later in India [as related to EPO by Dettmers]?

It is well-known that some WPC and security personnel around m. indicated they would Kill to protect m. -- or if ordered to - without question. Just like the KGB, CIA, or Mafia. What kind of spiritual racketeering has been engaged in, at all levels and in a number of areas, too, over the years?

Did m.'s interpretations, abuse, and perversion of the concept of spiritual AGYA pave the way for the virtual enslavement of thousands of well-meaning souls, for crimes committed and concealed, for the x-rating [sworn secrecy] of his personal activities, and for the accumulation and obscenely gross misuse of hundreds of millions of dollars in monetary donations?

Here is an excerpt from 'Life with Knowledge' (circa 1975), A Premie Guidebook, DLM, Chapter 6, entitled 'AGYA':

'You were told about this word, and explained its meaning thousands and thousands of times. And the word is 'agya'. If you follow agya, there is no big deal, no big problem. Then you don't have to worry. It's like, you're told to do something and you do it! ... It's Like Guru Maharaj Ji is standing a hundred feet above you and saying, 'Listen. You want to get out of this place? Okay. Now make a left.' And you go, 'I don't need your advice.'

'But if a person can be that humble and really understand that, 'YES, I AM A LITTLE CHILD, and I need directions,' then everything will be so beautiful.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji

Beautiful for whom? The mega-millionaire Master, or those spiritually entrapped and ENSLAVED?

Habits: 'Whatever you sow, you reap. If you sow good, you shall reap good. If you sow bad, you shall reap bad.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji

On the use of drugs and alcohol: 'Well, the only thing I can tell you is that, look, you already have a Knowledge that is much more superior than that. It is like this: a person is in one city and he is telling everybody, 'Oh, I want to go to another city as soon as possible.' And he has a falcon jet which is A-OK. It runs; it's perfect. But all he does is take his suitcase and start walking. And that's not the quickest way. It's not good to just say, 'Oh, I want this enlightenment to be soon as possible', and then instead, going to something that is completely inferior.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji

On marriage: 'What people do is they say, okay, we have to get married now, and then they get married. After some time they think oh no, I don't think I like this thing. I think I better get back to do service. And they leave their wives and they come back and it's like, they want to do service again, and they're really confused and I say, 'Man, do one thing. Make your decision whether you want to get married and stay married. You understand. Don't get divorced in two weeks because that is the most terrible thing you can do.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji

Service to the Master:
'If you want to be a disciple at all. If you want to be a real human being, first of all you have to be a servant. And how can one become a servant? By service.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji

Channels of Communication:
'...channels of communication through which DIRECTION can be given so that we all can work together. Therefore, everyone arranging any activities in either my name or in the name of Divine Light Mission MUST CONTACT Headquarters by telegram, telephone, or telex, FOR APPROVAL OF ANY PROPOSED ACTIVITY... BY ESTABLISHING THIS COMMUNICATION, ALL ACTIVITIES CAN BE APPROVED AND SUPPORTED BY THE DIVINE LIGHT MISSION, AND ANY SPECIAL PROPOSALS WILL BE ABLE TO COME TO MY ATTENTION BEFORE IMPLEMENTATION...' -- Sant Ji Maharaj [aka Guru Maharaj Ji aka Maharaji aka Prem Rawat aka Prempal Singh Rawat] (caps added)

The jury is out...

[gavel] Order in the court; we have a verdict. Foreman, please? What saith the jury now?

Blessings to the weak, the weary, and all those who have suffered in silence -- and endured for the sake of truth! My heart has truly weeped deeply for everyone so affected. And I am not ashamed of feeling such compassion. That is simply my nature.

Until the next time...

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

P.S. To WAY: Even though the statute of limitations has expired and DLM paid Patrick Halley a small settlement, we are conducting a little related insightful investigation. Would you please kindly convey our best wishes and ask him asap (if he recalls, as precisely as possible) if he could provide answers to the following questions (especially #3):
1. the date and approximate time[s] of his phone contact[s] with the assailants;
2. the date, approximate time, and location when he first met with Mishra [Fakiranand] and Fletcher;
3. the time of the attempted murder at his place [as close as possible] and its location [nearest street intersection is ok];
4. who contacted him from DLM later, any related correspondence or communications, and the nature thereof; and
5. the terms of the settlement [again, if possible].
This information would be very helpful in our on-going investigation. Please post this info, along with any other new or related additional descriptive information that Pat might wish to provide.

Also, anyone else with factual information about the incident's planning and the specific individuals involved at IHQ in Denver, or in reference to the arrangements made for the fugitives (Detroit, Chicago, Canada, and India)?
Thanks, such

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:49:03 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: WAY
Subject: To WAY: r.e. Patrick Halley
Message:
To WAY: Even though the statute of limitations has expired and DLM paid Patrick Halley a small settlement, we are conducting a little related insightful investigation. Would you please kindly convey our best wishes and ask him asap (if he recalls, as precisely as possible) if he could provide answers to the following questions (especially #3):
1. the date and approximate time[s] of his phone contact[s] with the assailants;
2. the date, approximate time, and location when he first met with Mishra [Fakiranand] and Fletcher;
3. the time of the attempted murder at his place [as close as possible] and its location [nearest street intersection is ok];
4. who contacted him from DLM later, any related correspondence or communications, and the nature thereof; and
5. the terms of the settlement [again, if possible].
This information would be very helpful in our on-going investigation. Please post this info, along with any other new or related additional descriptive information that Pat might wish to provide.
Also, anyone else with factual information about the incident's planning and the specific individuals involved at IHQ in Denver, or in reference to the arrangements made for the fugitives (Detroit, Chicago, Canada, and India)?
Thanks, such
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 18:47:55 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Yes, I will pass your request on to PH. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:37:36 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Can Pat send a copy of the Police Report? (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 05:21:07 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Way
Subject: Please pass my best wishes to Pat H.
Message:
Way -- Pat was an acquaintance of mine (friend of my old roomates Bruce and Ziggy Zigler) several years before I received K. I was horrified to hear what happened to him when I got the news many years ago. The horror has not diminished with time, but from all the distant news I've heard, Pat is as well as can be expected. I saw fakiranand at a 'guru rally' at Louis Armstrong stadium prior to the time of the attack and he seemed like he was going off the deep end. Kind of like crazy for god. Then just crazy

Please convey my best wishes.

Thanks, f

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 17:57:13 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Will do. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:12:36 (GMT)
From: King Munmut
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: More 'active' then the Baldur's Gate Forum!
Message:
I've been on the internet for about 5 years now, and the
most active forum I've ever vistied was the Baldur's Gate
Forum. Baldur's Gate is the best role playing game ever.

One of THE BEST computer games ever for that matter.

This Forum out does that one. In fact, for an EX Shit Head
follower, I could spend my whole internet time at this
forum alone.

'BUT I CAN'T'.....There's just too many great computer
games out there, I need to play them, surf the net to find
out about games etc,not be here reading all this fantastic,
heart felt stuff.

TRUE SEEKERS....any one who would follow Shit Head, or
be sucked into some other cult, know the bind of
sincerity....Sincerity means...clean pure.
I know, cause I just looked it up on my computer dictionay
to make sure I was spelling it right :)

So!!! what's my point???
My point is....THE AIN'T NO FUCK'N HEAVEN!!!!!!!!
Not on Earth any rate.
For as long as your in a human body you 'WILL NOT'
experience samadhi, heaven or what ever.
That only happens on an LSD or Magic Mushroom trip, or what
ever ya drop.

If ya wanna forget ya self, Shit Head, or what ever then
get into computer games...cause 'GOD CREATED THEM'.

GOD Created the COMPUTER????
You don't think a Human Being could ever create the
computer do you.??????????
Make metal outa Dust in the ground????
Come on.
cheers all, 'LOVE YA ALL'

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