Guy Rollins -:- First post -- best wishes -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 07:07:40 (GMT)

__ Katie Darling (Baier) -:- First post -- best wishes -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:19:30 (GMT)

__ Alan Fenstermacher -:- First post -- best wishes -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:08:30 (GMT)

__ Joy -:- There's a Few from IHQ Here -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:42:52 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Hello Guy -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:34:20 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- welcome Guy -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:02:21 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- Hey Guy, How are you? Remember me? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:50:41 (GMT)

__ Michael Dettmers -:- Welcome Guy -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 12:59:01 (GMT)

__ __ Mark Appleman -:- Welcome to All the Presidents Men -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:03:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill -:- My name included was a typo?:) -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:45:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- Welcome to All the Presidents Men:Mark, a few ?'s. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:25:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mark -:- Welcome to All the Presidents Men:Mark, a few ?'s. -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:19:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Thanks Mark, I will.We've spoken before...nt -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:19:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Ha ! Funny , informative ..really INTERESTING nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:47:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Postie -:- Bravo Mark.... except one question FA -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:39:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mark -:- Bravo Mark.... except one question FA -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:37:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Koran ... Caron ?? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:14:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Caron was one of my good friends, too! (nt -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:46:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Mark.... about naming names -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:58:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Mark, I agree -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:54:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- But I might not -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:33:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Well, then let's be clear here -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:48:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Mark, I agree - your intentions were honorable -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:05:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Susan -:- I agree Postie -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:53:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ michael donner -:- naming can be tricky -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 03:54:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ MARK -:- naming can be tricky -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:30:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard / Postie -:- Mark, he did tell it further up ..... -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 05:18:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Bravo Mark! Well said (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:23:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- Awesome Mark Bravo Kudos I echo -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:21:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Hey Mark -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:07:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Enshrine this Post! ***good work****!!! n/t -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:47:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I will!! (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:06:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- ***EXCELLENT POST EVERYONE*** -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:23:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- ***EXCELLENT POST EVERYONE*** -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:56:32 (GMT)

__ Aussi Ji -:- Welcome aboard,from downunder.cheers mate. nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:55:53 (GMT)

__ __ Tony Ji -:- Welcome aboard,from downunder.cheers mate. nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 11:37:21 (GMT)

__ Dermot -:- First post -- best wishes -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:31:52 (GMT)

__ Robyn -:- First post -- best wishes -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:16:51 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- First post -- best wishes to you Guy -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 08:45:07 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Pat, thanks for what you said about aliases... -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:56:31 (GMT)

__ __ michel donner -:- First post -- best wishes to you Guy -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:14:14 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Goodnight children, everywhere -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:16:13 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- the Susan on link up is not this Susan -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 04:10:09 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Ah but that's the problem -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:21:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- poor old HAL.daisy daisy give me your answer do nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:38:24 (GMT)

Jim -:- Now that the page is back up ...... -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:09:50 (GMT)

__ salam -:- Mate, I don't know how you keep up -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:12:53 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- Oh! Brave New World -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 04:18:26 (GMT)

__ G -:- 'to suffer' -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:59:44 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- moral judgement re 'negative' feelings and thought -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:44:40 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- Now that the page is back up ...... -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:30:11 (GMT)

Postie -:- Dalai Lama compared to M -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:48:05 (GMT)

__ Suchabanana -:- m. like a Lard-greased rotund dolly llama... -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 07:26:11 (GMT)

__ moldy warp -:- M compared to DL and found wanting(and wanting and -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:09:44 (GMT)

__ __ Disculta -:- Hello Dally -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:27:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- great one! Thanks Disculta :) (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:53:47 (GMT)

__ __ Babs -:- DL's advice -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:27:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- DL visit to San Jose -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:02:51 (GMT)

gErRy -:- dAWG wITH A gUN... -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:56:23 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- That's bullshit -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:31:12 (GMT)

__ sUcH -:- U 2? Buono!!! (nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 07:15:42 (GMT)

__ gErRy -:- dAWG wITH A gUN REDUX... -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:10:46 (GMT)

__ __ gErRy -:- Well it is fuckin' scary...[edited by FA] -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 04:09:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ gErRy -:- Or Dep coulda turned into a jerk off FA -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 04:33:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- theres always AG -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 08:05:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Don't fucking tell me what to do. -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:08:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- What a fucking cry-baby -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:37:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- boo fucking hoo, indeed -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:08:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- well not entirely your fault -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:16:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Art or pornography..parody or Incitement -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:20:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I heard of that -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:55:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- I heard of that too -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:26:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Ooops! I'm with Gerry on this one -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:00:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- Judgement call -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:34:12 (GMT)

Pat Conlon -:- Sure cure for fence-sitting blues -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 22:42:47 (GMT)

__ janet -:- theres one person to stop you---YOU!!!! -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 08:09:24 (GMT)

__ Katie Darling -:- Here's another poetic bauble' -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:00:42 (GMT)

__ Katie Darling -:- Sure cure for fence-sitting blues -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:32:15 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Katie, sweetie Dahling, I'm making a copy for Joe -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:18:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ janet -:- i'll take a copy. never saw it b4 nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 08:10:52 (GMT)

__ moldy warp -:- Sure cure for fence-sitting blues -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:17:55 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- I am deconstructing why ... -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:08:04 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- I am deconstructing why ... -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:15:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ Postie -:- 'my little inner smile' -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:39:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Belief systems come ... belief systems go ... -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:56:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- wiggle room -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:39:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- ***Forum Imaginative Spelling Contest*** -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:02:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- 'Delimmia' is bulimia for the mind (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:27:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Postie, you're right but it's even worse than that -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:48:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- But it's even worse than that - Barcelona Pt 2 -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:22:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Are you sure this was Barcelona -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:06:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Are you sure this was Barcelona - No -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:23:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Are you sure this was Barcelona - No -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:45:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks Kelly - got it! -:- Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:54:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- But it's even worse than that - Barcelona Pt 2 -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:28:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Peter - it's a recording of a satellite broadcast -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:08:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- like Mussolini -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 13:53:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Charles S. -:- EXACTLY! Well said, G. (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:26:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- An idea - juxtipose pictures -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:51:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- But it's even worse than that - Barcelona Pt 2 -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 09:37:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Dermot, the slide show, pie chart programs -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:52:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Pat's post here is a must-read -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:43:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Maharaji Rubber punch-bag -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 04:05:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Yeah Jim, M puts the eerie in expeerience. (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:17:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, that's not bad (for a pun, I mean) (nt) -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 05:17:53 (GMT)

G -:- Amaroo web site roast -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 22:42:17 (GMT)

__ Suzanne -:- Amaroo web site roast -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:53:55 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- We've got non-plastic trees and a maitre d' -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:08:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ Suzanne -:- We've got non-plastic trees and a maitre d' -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:14:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- 'hostess and maitre d' and escorted' -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:40:55 (GMT)

__ A Former Aspirant -:- Amaroo is HELL -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:29:54 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Just waiting for them to bring out the Kool Aid -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 01:50:35 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- The Sadist Maharaji -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:35:55 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- The Sadist Maharaji -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:01:32 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Maharaji's throne at Kissimee -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:46:13 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- Amaroo web site roast -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:38:47 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- Good catch, and more... -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:16:35 (GMT)

__ TD -:- They don't mention darshan in their 1997 history -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:12:49 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- I also like the US dollars ... -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:19:28 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- An appeal to snobbery -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:59:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Who is 'Steve?' -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:01:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ DV -:- Who is 'Steve?' -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:08:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- Steve Sitnick - fall guy -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:15:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Steve Sitnick - fall guy -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:21:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Steve Sitnick - instructor? -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:37:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- I remember Steve Sitnick -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:22:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Me too... -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 04:16:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Me too... -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:22:05 (GMT)

la-ex -:- Forum Adm: What happened? nt -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 21:55:33 (GMT)

__ Forum Admin -:- What happened? Search me! -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 22:01:00 (GMT)

__ __ Brian -:- What happened? Search me! -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:16:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Charles S. -:- Yes, but isn't there more that could be done... -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:23:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- more that could be done -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:41:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- I agree with most of this -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:29:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Hope you had a nice weekend -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 06:09:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I will email you, Brian -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:37:54 (GMT)

__ __ Babs -:- FV Addiction -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:13:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie -:- Half an explanation -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:01:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Half an explanation -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:30:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thank you Dermot -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:00:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Katie, Brian -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:15:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Pat -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:05:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks, Pat -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:22:08 (GMT)

janet -:- next time F5 goes down,I made us a chat room -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 21:42:18 (GMT)

janet -:- so wha did you all think of my fantasy in email? -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 21:21:57 (GMT)

Dermot -:- no PAM no hi.. -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 10:55:06 (GMT)

__ Bryn -:- Vital point. Iagree.Lets hear it for rank and file -:- Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:25:22 (GMT)

__ Robyn -:- no PAM no hi.. -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:13:39 (GMT)

__ __ Dermot -:- no PAM no hi.. -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:22:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- oh don't feel bad Dermot -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:25:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- There's absolutely nothing to worry about -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:10:02 (GMT)

__ suchabanana -:- Greetings from the rank unwashed feet (nt -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:06:44 (GMT)

__ __ Dermot -:- uufffgh...thanks'such' ..and everyone ! nt -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:15:05 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- welcome Dermot!!!! -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 20:57:41 (GMT)

__ __ Dermot -:- thanks!! but my post was -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 21:27:59 (GMT)

__ __ Postie -:- welcome Dermot!!!! -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 21:06:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- welcome Dermot!!!! -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 22:47:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Postie -:- FV withdrawel referred to the FV crash n/t -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:33:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ michael donner -:- welcome Dermot!!!! -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:39:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Experiences inside the cult -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:30:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- PAMs eye view -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:13:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The reflected glory of celebrity -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:40:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Hey I ran into a celeb today -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:07:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Hey I ran into a celeb today -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:13:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Demystifying darshan -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:59:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Darshan scene in Tommy -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:09:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Ken Russell's, The Who's ''Tommy'' -:- Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:34:51 (GMT)

Jethro -:- Could Mike Donner have been the subject of -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 10:06:58 (GMT)

__ janet -:- what was the 'fuck you' video? what name or title -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 10:36:06 (GMT)

__ __ Jethro -:- LOL Janet, the FU video was made -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 10:40:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ michael donner -:- LOL Janet, the FU video was made -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:45:24 (GMT)

janet of venice -:- 'you must be in california, if...'(OT) -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 02:05:21 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- Well, you know I think it's good because I told -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:32:24 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- i couldnt make this stuff up! its all true! -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:34:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- It's not THAT bad -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:40:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Sweetie Dahlings -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 07:10:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Sweetie Dahling Disculta - LA v SF -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 09:01:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- thats right-rub my face in it, salt my wound! -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 09:40:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- You said it - there's even some beauty in LaLaLand -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:26:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- And the Jack Kerouac Award goes to ... janet (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 21:16:01 (GMT)

__ Aussi ji -:- Hey,that is bloody good! nt -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 03:56:54 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- no, that's bloody bad. stay far away!!!!lol -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:28:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- Is Not !(i'm poking my tongue out at you) LOL!! -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:32:27 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Not bad, not bad at all (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 03:51:20 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- u lived here--am i right or not?..lol,gtg -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:30:48 (GMT)

__ Kelly -:- 'The answer is 42. You know that -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 02:42:01 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- The answer is 42. Question: What's the meaning of -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 03:04:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ janet -:- do you have 3 tons of rotten vegetables in yr fr? -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:32:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- do you have 3 tons of rotten vegetables in yr fr? -:- Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:35:00 (GMT)

Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 07:07:40 (GMT) From: Guy Rollins Email: guy@architx.com To: Everyone Subject: First post -- best wishes Message:

I've been aware that there was an ex-premie forum for some time, but when I initially checked it out I did not recognize any names (because everyone was disguised) and it felt negative -- so I forgot about it. Recently Donner forwarded the link to Dettmer's posts, I read them and was impressed by the content and the transformation that MVD has undergone. The Dettmers I had known in the past was very private about the events around his life. Also, what he has to say about past events matches what I witnessed. So, this is intended to say hello to friends (now that I recognize a few names) and to wish you all well. I would welcome hearing from old friends. Guy

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:19:30 (GMT) From: Katie Darling (Baier) Email: None To: Guy Rollins Subject: First post -- best wishes Message:

Hey Guy!! Welcome to the Forum. Remember your ex-roomie from Morton Towers? I'm really, really happy to hear from you! I've wondered about you many times over the years. I particularly remember that John and I wanted to get a special chair for MJ for the apartment so that he could sit there if he visited us, and you were very clear that that wasn't gonna happen. I remember thinking, 'He has a different take on MJ than us, for sure!' Look forward to hearing your 'take' if you want to tell us, and it's good to know you're alive and well.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:08:30 (GMT) From: Alan Fenstermacher Email: alan@woodcon.com To: Guy Rollins Subject: First post -- best wishes Message:

Welcome aboard Guy. Long time no see. Alan

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:42:52 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Guy Rollins Subject: There's a Few from IHQ Here Message:

Hi Guy. I didn't know you personally, but I'm the Joy who was in the IHQ typesetting room after Janice. Was there for a number of years (but thankfully out of the cult for almost 20 now). Even though there's lots of negativity here (very healthy place to process anger!) there's also quite a few really thoughtful and insightful discussions. It's just amazing the things people come up with, and all the revelations by closer-in folks like you and the Michael's really help put the pieces of the puzzle together. Thanks for posting and welcome to Forum 5, hope to hear lots from you. Love, Joy (Jaber) P.S. Hi to Michael Donner, too. Thanks for showing up as well. I didn't know you personally, but still have fond memories of you from the IHQ days.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:34:20 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Guy Rollins Subject: Hello Guy Message:

You probably don't remember me, my name is Joe Whalen, and I didn't know you, just saw you working at DECA a few times, and I had some interraction with you when I worked in the legal department at DECA in 1979 and when I was CC in Miami in 79-80. Welcome. Regarding anonymity, I know it can be off-putting, but it seems that after awhile, people who were anonymous eventually reveal their identities. I really support that, although I think it should be remembered that the Maharaji cult was and is largely built on fear, and people have their own ways of dealing with that. Of course, it's just like finding out that Maharaji and his cult are subject to the emperor's new clothes phenomenon. Once you get past that, there isn't any fear anymore. That's why it feels so good to go public about all this. Welcome, and thanks for being here. Joe Whalen

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:02:21 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Guy Rollins Subject: welcome Guy Message:

I look forward to hearing what you have to say. Susan

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:50:41 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: sylviecyn@yahoo.com To: Guy Rollins Subject: Hey Guy, How are you? Remember me? Message:

Dear Guy, When I saw your name here I jumped in my seat! I worked for you in the design room, I used to go by the name Cindy, and my last name was Folcik. Those were weird days, eh? I live in Vermont now, and we're up to our waists (literally) in snow. I so happy to see you posting here. I hope you are well, and by your email, it looks like your still an architect. Warmest regards, Guy, WOW! Cynthia Gracie

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 12:59:01 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Guy Rollins Subject: Welcome Guy Message:

Thanks for checking-in and for your kind words. Thanks also for bearing witnessing to what I have reported. The more people who were around Maharaji come forward and honestly report or confirm what went on around him, the more difficult it will be for current and potential PWK's to pretend that his greed, his lust, his alcoholism, his hypocricy and his indifference to the concerns of others have nothing to do with who he is or what he claims his mission to be. All the best, Michael

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:03:32 (GMT) From: Mark Appleman Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Welcome to All the Presidents Men Message:

This is great. Its like the Nixon Watergate thing in some way. Halderman, Dean, Kissinger . With the 2 MD's, and now Mr Rollins , who I seem to remember as the Architect ( with a sweet wife or ex-wife Janice), its sort of like All the President's Men coming out of the closet . . . one by one. Courage , even when long overdue, is to be applauded. The sooner the better. There are still quite a few people 'At the Feet of the Master' . The Master who never was. I just ran into 2 terminal old-timers at a club in LA last nite. There but for the Grace of God go I !!! There STILL are people in that burning building . . . Along with the litany of mortal sins Mike Dettmers was laying out above, it triggered a hope that Mike Donners might add 'the Joint at the IHQ meeting' story to the FORUM historical record. Told to me back in the 70's by Lou Schwartz, I just laughed and laughed. Anyway, Maharaji seemed at least to be quite democratic as far as his substance abuse choices, (if not his smoking behavior). Hash with Ron Coletta, a joint with John Hampton ('Remember,only with ME !' 'Yes Maharaji !' ), acid with the other John, as well as a toke with the Lads down at the Denver IHQ Office. A lot of the premies I used to hang out with - One Foundation camp,other musicians , 'Bongos', Cosmoburgers, and other non-IHQ types, were more from the dope than alcohol side of things, so these stories were spiritual currency to them. Somehow , I think what happens is this. You hear or witness some particular pecadillo of your Idol/Star/Guru , something you find detestible or wrong or innappropriate, but its isolated,and more important you're isolated ( and certainly in a fear-based system with an ALL Knowing & Powerful master ) so you just bury it, ignore it, sluff it off somehow,or try and correct it within the scope of your life (something it seems, from their accounts at least, both Mike Donners and Dettmers did). As all of US had given our ALL ( 'for in you it will mellow, Maharaji my Lord, my life is your play' ) the 'discrete' evidences that each one of us got that all was not well in Denmark or Brindiban unfortunately becomes 'discreet',or worse yet, 'Darshan stories' . We all took too long to connect the dots and come forward. Jeff Wilson the Gardener and his tales of Rawat Family dysfunction. Teddy T. with his version of the Santa Barbara intervention.The lineage controversies. All those stories of Shri Hans Rawat having a little young travelling Indian sqeeze along with him on his road trips as well. But my tendency was to look at what was wrong or incomplete with the person telling me the story's understanding of Maharaji - rather than looking at the total implausibility of Maharaji himself ! Or feel that one should minds one's own spiritual business. Or not rat(rawat)out a good friend- he gave me Liberation,didn't he? . Or fear period, the wrath of THE PERFECT ONE. Or genuinely, like some loyal political flack, put a spin on the event, and allow it to attest to Maharaji's ( 'he's so free', or 'he has no concepts',or 'he did it just for me !So Much Love ) You know what I'm saying. You've done it. We all did it. I certainly chuckle imagining Jim Heller giving his version of devotional satsang.It IS funny to look back. Til you remember his friend who did himself in. And Cynthia Korman. And poor Mirabai. And Susan and her struggle regarding Jagdeo. And the people I met at the club last nite . Or Sandy, the girl who came to the New York Shri Hans Clinic in '73 having followed satsang saying literally saying if your eyes deceive you,pluck them out (and John Horton, god bless him - stilll to this day my family Doctor- sincerely telling her that Maharaji's lilas are endless and everything would work out) I watched Maharaji and Raja's sexual advance on Cynthia Korman end up driving her literally mad, and this was long before Maharaji's 'I am Krishna period (of the 80's), so I get all the girls' (So FORGET the thesis that Marolyn's fooling around caused Maharaji to wander) They both just waded in and played around with the head and body of this statuesque supermodel type (one of the few brunettes on record). She was very conflicted by their bizarre behavior, later being considered a bongo and finally being institutionalized ( not exactly LIBERATION, is it ?). I know because she came to me, along with others, for help. This was '77 ( yes only 2 years after those dewy Malibu Beachfront 'Walking with Durga Ji,our MOM', and during those Hansi-Wadi Babies at home videos. ) I was also around for Maharaji getting astrological counseling from Koran during that 80's period, who literally nursed him though the conflict he was having in his marriage from a lot of sexual experimentation that they were BOTH going through(this has been previously alluded to in this FORUM). This was in addition to the Doctor of the Stars thing . How could he be severely bummed and anguishedin his private life, and still give such powerful satsang. He thought it was a Miracle! ( he obviously never saw that it was the ability of an entertainer athlete or musician to Perform . Good for him. Too bad for all of us. ) Also when Maharaji had less than PERFECT relationships with Michelle Mitchell, Gwen Harrington,Carol Eannace,and Grace Maas, among others. Not to mention the oft cited Monica Lewis Its funny. Because each thing in itself is just one thing, and to see the pattern and call a spade a spade at that point was not even possible. But as the President's Men make their appearance here, and the missing 17 minutes of tape get played to us again and again, (through still another person's perspective) I am quite pleased. Things are as they should be. Bill, Jim, Joe (our Woodward and Bernsteins) et al, who have been howling in the wilderness for years for reliable Public Personna Smoking Guns, are having their desire for unimpeachable witnesses fulfilled. And the nobility of their intention is displayed for all.And we can impeach our pasts with surety and finality. so hopefully the Information can Liberate You, the reader, from the Holographic Liberation ( 'but Mark it all seemed SO real!) that never occured . . . 'I am not a crook!' oh well,time for work.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 20:45:09 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: My name included was a typo?:) Message:

I surely howled here at the forum, although Her Majesty's subjects might say more accurately that I was 'barking'. A forum historian might put my name closer Sanfords rather than Jim or Joe's when an accounting of the struggle here is done! While I did clamor for PAM confirmations of reality, and REALLY 'appreciating' JM's super impressive work here and his being the first real upper dust devotee to step forward with integrity and work to help us out, most of my posts for a long time were more primal scream therapy than contributions to the cause. A thanks and a tip of the hat to And it is Divine for that primal scream issue! A short listing of rebel heavyweights of the forum really cant include my name. But thanks for the mention!

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:25:18 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: Welcome to All the Presidents Men:Mark, a few ?'s. Message:

Mark- You touched on a number of stories, ranging from 4 or 5 women who were used in some way by m,Jeff Wilson the gardener(I knew Jeff a bit), the drug stories, the counselors, the model, etc. Can you elaborate on some of these, so that we can put them in either the 'rumor' category, or the 'fact, as seen by someone' category? They are intriguing to say the least, and many of us would like to know if they are valid or not. The puzzle seems to be shaping up in ways I never would have imagined. Thanks for posting, La-ex

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:19:46 (GMT) From: Mark Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Welcome to All the Presidents Men:Mark, a few ?'s. Message:

email me at apple4256@datastreet.com with your name and # and we can have a chat or lunch that will amaze you. However,I will simply say all were first or second hand 'darshan stories' counseling things,or conversations with the people cited. To me , there's only one fact worth ascertaining. Do we deserve our power back , given long ago under false pretenses ?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:19:23 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Mark Subject: Thanks Mark, I will.We've spoken before...nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:47:43 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: Ha ! Funny , informative ..really INTERESTING nt Message:

zzzz

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:39:12 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: Bravo Mark.... except one question FA Message:

A tour de force Mark, two thumbs way up. But FA, I understand I have less than complete moral authority by posting anonymously, but I think it's not cool to have people outed here. The details are intriguing and damning to M but doesn't it make those people named victims all over again? Postie

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:37:45 (GMT) From: Mark Email: None To: Postie Subject: Bravo Mark.... except one question FA Message:

Not outing I don't think. Many of the things I refered to I have mentioned piecemeal on the Forum over the years, or shared openly or had shared openly to me. Jeff Wilson told his story to anyone who would listen. ( Joe last I heard he was in Ireland, but his specifiics on situations not firsthand are not mine to tell. Maybe still in the Rawat loop, tho I don't know.) So Postie, my question back is ,'If you know you are one of 50 people getting Mike Donner's letter, are you ethically kosher putting that on the Internet. Is it public domain , especially if it might help one made an INFORMED decision ? At least 50 people know about each specific thing I'm mentioning. The many things I don't mention I STILL think are personal. I did not mention any current card carrying members.The women were the dissillusioned flee-ers in my Journey. Koran has passed away and Cynthia was raped and destroyed by Rawat. I have no compunction telling her tale. The intention here was the global, not the specific. What Jim would call commentary. Postie, your question might be a concern about YOU being outed before you're ready . At least that's a guess,or something worth looking at.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:14:36 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: notinherent@yahoo.com To: Mark Subject: Koran ... Caron ?? Message:

Do you mean Mme. Caron Ladinsky? She was a palm reader but also owned an import/export store with her husband, I believe his name was Don? Their store was in Chatsworth or one of those LA suburbs. He hubby used to go to Afghanistan a good part of the year. I used to see him hubby years ago when I lived in the Haight Ashbury, because he was friends with Pablo (an ex-prem who was the unofficial mayor of the Haight at one point) but if it is my old pal Caron, can you tell me more? If it it too personal, just send me an e-mail -- thanks

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:46:20 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Caron was one of my good friends, too! (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:58:07 (GMT) From: Postie Email: post@rmi.net To: Mark Subject: Mark.... about naming names Message:

Mark said: 'Postie, your question might be a concern about YOU being outed before you're ready . At least that's a guess,or something worth looking at.' Thank you Doctor Mark - good guess. I do look at it and I do consider the credibility gap, personal integrity, honesty, etc that comes with posting anonymously, but it's my choice. And it is forum policy that it is my choice to either be anonymous or not. As far as the people you have listed here, read Susan's reply below. She has stated here before that she was a victim of Jagdeo but she is the one who came here to say that as is her right. She agrees that it puts undue stress on someone who was / is a victim of M. Her honesty and her thwarted attempt at communicating her issue to M via Michael Dettmers, prompted me to begin posting here several months back and others as well. But she chose when and how to tell her story. There are many fence sitters lurking here who will be shocked at your allegations so there is a lot of value in that, but naming the victims also harms the victims.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:54:57 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Mark Subject: Mark, I agree Message:

I think there is a lot of crap that is 'common knowledge' among a lot of premies that just doesn't get stated, or remains in the realm of gossip among premies over cups of coffee, or maybe stronger stuff. I think what you are saying is very valuable, because it lifts these things out of that realm, and is very helpful. I'm glad that at least those women had the sense to 'flee' that awful situation. 'Naming names,' as long as it isn't personally destructive, which I trust you to know about in this particular case, is just so valuable, because it puts a face and a name onto the abuse Maharaji dumped on people. That's what is so valuable about this forum, because it's partly real people talking about what really happened to them. A lot of people knew Gwen, Carol and Grace. A lot more, like me, knew them by name and face, but didn't know them personally, or perhaps just to say hello to. They are real people to many, and that takes Maharaji's trangressions out of the abstract and into the real world. So I think what you said was completely appropriate and I hope more people will do the same.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:33:29 (GMT) From: Mark Email: None To: Joe Subject: But I might not Message:

I am not saying Maharaji had sex with these women.I wasn't there in the hotel hooms or dates. But I did observe that things were done to alienate them from dealing with M in the same way. The relationship was Enhanced beyond the traditional master thing, and after that the center just didn't hold in the same way. Sort of the Humpty Dumpty all the Kings Horses thing. I was not Maharaji's pimp or astrologer personally. But the record should clearly state that he did have such people.And X rated party people. And a whole well developed and well stocked shadow life. If this clarity can fast forward someone into regaining their own personal Power (Including Maharaji, who needs to reclaim HIS personal power, NOT vampirize unwitting and uninformed De- Vote -ees.)Great. Or if seeing the names and stories of Mike Finch,Mike Dettmers,and Mike Donner- who have so to speak,been stepping up to the MIKE - wakes someone up, Great ! That's the goal-again and still-ironically enough. Liberation. Just emotional-mental body liberation this time.Turns out that OUR spiritual bodies are doing just fine, thank you very much ! I'm just describing his drug of choice with some of those specific X ers,who I assure you will not be swayed by me. They know what I write, and much much more. They have just tucked it all into either their belief or self worth systems, and resumed Life with the Master. And that's fine to me. Free choice is free choice. But the Truth (to purloin a phrase) CAN set one free. And some strange consulting I did with Koran, and counseling with Cynthia. So they were direct sources.And in their own way,no longer with us.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:48:34 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Mark Subject: Well, then let's be clear here Message:

Clearly the sexual relationship or the attempted relationship with those women is what was implied, or at least that is the way it's being taken, so maybe it would be helpful for you just to tell the story as you know it, rather than the rather oblique references we are getting. What are you actually saying? What do you mean the relationships were 'ehanced' and why don't you just tell us what you think was going on. How were they 'alientated' and why did they 'flee?' I guess I see it like this. Truth and information are valuable and extremely liberating, because you have to DO something with facts and information, you can't just discount it completely, especially if it comes from somebody who was in a position to know the truth. Everything else is just somebody's analysis or opinion and maybe it's helpful and maybe it isn't. Certainly opinion and analysis can be discounted as just that. But facts and events and testimony are something else. They are liberating to people. Personally, I don't think you or Michael Dettmers, or Michael Donner, or me or anyone else has any better insights into all this. What people like about the Michaels and what they have to say, is that they have information about what actually happened, that was hidden from the vast majority of premies, and they are talking about it. And they were in a position to know. They also have their opinions about it, just like we all do. So, what gets people exercised about your post is that it appears to contain information that we didn't already have. Like you said, the truth can set you free, but I think we need to be careful about stating what the truth is.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:05:34 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joe Subject: Mark, I agree - your intentions were honorable Message:

Thank you for you wonderful post. The only ''outing'' I draw the line at is in trying to place blame on premies or current Pewkies because they are all victims of the same rapist no matter what they did. They did it in his name and need to be forgiven for that. The BIG LIE started with Rawat and we all got caught up in that lie. Now let the truth set us free. All the truth and nothing but the truth and only the truth, so help me God.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:53:47 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Postie Subject: I agree Postie Message:

That post is very powerful but I too was struck that the names of the women that Rawat had sex with was not neccessary for it to be powerful. I guess in journalism there is a code about not naming rape victims. I wonder if we should as a group discuss a 'code' on this. In my view, women who had sex with Rawat thinking he was the Lord of the Universe were victims of a type of sexual assault and spiritual abuse. I do think that naming them could make any guilt, pain, or shame they carry worse, and make them feel powerless. I think it should be up to them whether their names appear on the forum. I hope some of them do post though, telling the truth is powerfully healing. Mark, I thought your post was a best ever but what do you think, should you perhaps ask to have the names balcked out? Anyone else want to weigh in on the pros and cons here? I would like to read what Cynthia thinks.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 03:54:35 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: None To: Susan Subject: naming can be tricky Message:

hi, i agree with you susan. naming is troubling to me. when i was reading this site before i began to post, i went thru the archives and there were numerous references to me over the months and most of them not true, some partially true and very few that were true. and often the posts that followed the not true info seemed to further distort the truth...facts. also, it did not make me feel good. and most often it seemed like the poster was speaking with first hand knowledge or implying knowledge they obviously did not have. when reading further as mark clarified, it becomes more clear but there was movement to enshrine the original post on another site without (i presume) the clarifying statements (which are still not clear to me actually). so i join you, susan, in calling for discretion at minimum and more conversation of standards....not to censor certainly but to assure first hand experience please.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 04:30:04 (GMT) From: MARK Email: None To: michael donner Subject: naming can be tricky Message:

Mike , Does this indicate a willingness to tell a first person joint at IHQ story.Just for the captain's log,mind you. It would be the first non achohol first person substance abuse postings. Believe it or not, it was the inspiration of my first post

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 05:18:43 (GMT) From: Richard / Postie Email: None To: MARK Subject: Mark, he did tell it further up ..... Message:

... at the bottom of the 'Jim -:- 'MIKE DONNER' IS A PREMIE PLANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' thread. And you still haven't adressed my concerns about naming names reinforced by Susan's personal story. I still think you are a freakin' talented chronicler of the true Life With Knowledge. Richard

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:23:31 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Mark Appleman Subject: Bravo Mark! Well said (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:21:50 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: Awesome Mark Bravo Kudos I echo Message:

enshrine this post as a BEST EVER!!!! thanks Mark!

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:07:03 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: Hey Mark Message:

Lots of good information in there. Well done. I was wondering about Jeff Wilson, who I recall from COLL as a nice guy. I know he was Maharaji's gardener for awhile; what in particular did he have to say? What is his situation regarding Maharaji now? Frankly, I would have been shocked when I lived in the ashram that Maharaji drank and took drugs, but I can see why that wouldn't be such a big deal to many other premies at the time, or now. Also, I'm not so sure I wouldn't have considered it lila and just tried to surrender. But I think the news about having sex outside his marriage, with premies, would have, and probably does, have the shock value to really get people to start thinking more objectively about Maharaji. And it all unravels from there. So, now you are naming names. I had heard rumors about Gwen, Grace and Carol, and maybe others too, but I knew who those three were, so maybe that's why I remembered. Do you know how they have dealt with all that? I can't imagine it was easy. And I think the fact that a premie may have been psychologically damaged by a sexual encounter with Maharaji, or the way they were treated, is also very significant, and would open the eyes of a lot of people. So thanks for that, too.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:47:18 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: Enshrine this Post! ***good work****!!! n/t Message:

raw raw raw

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:06:58 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Francesca Subject: I will!! (nt) Message:

ddd

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:23:33 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: ***EXCELLENT POST EVERYONE*** Message:

Mark, You just said a lot. Some important facts alone, forget about the excellent commentary. Acid? I would have loved to be there for that one. Can you imagine? Acid?? Acid and jamming and laughing on the top of Anacapa, going for a midnight, moon-filled walk. Maybe getting a little bit of that midnight arti shit happening .....

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:56:32 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Jim Subject: ***EXCELLENT POST EVERYONE*** Message:

hahaha yeah. What a trip that would have been. Shithot, as we used to say in the ole acid days over here. HA!!

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:55:53 (GMT) From: Aussi Ji Email: None To: Guy Rollins Subject: Welcome aboard,from downunder.cheers mate. nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 11:37:21 (GMT) From: Tony Ji Email: None To: Guy Subject: Welcome aboard,from downunder.cheers mate. nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:31:52 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Guy Rollins Subject: First post -- best wishes Message:

Hi guy ive been aware of the forum for a while too and just recently started posting under my real name after 3 0r 4 posts under an alias. As for the negativity ....I think it comes and goes ....you know ...the rough with the smooth sort of thing. A few things I've noticed.. .....it's interesting, funny, thought-provoking, at times really irritating(!), confronting, consoling, gossipy, serious, ...... in short ....a forum of ex-premies. From one newbie to another.....welcome.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:16:51 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Guy Rollins Subject: First post -- best wishes Message:

Welcome Guy, I hope you find friends here and reconnect but also that you find support and less negativity then you did when you checked out the forum in the past. Seems to be LOTS of very recent exes and that they are nuturing each other from what I've read anyway. Love, Robyn

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 08:45:07 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Guy Rollins Subject: First post -- best wishes to you Guy Message:

You said: ''I've been aware that there was an ex-premie forum for some time, but when I initially checked it out I did not recognize any names (because everyone was disguised) and it felt negative -- so I forgot about it.'' Thank you for saying that. It is my firm conviction that this forum will become more positive and more respected the more people rid themselves of fear and are unafraid of stepping forward and identifying themselves. Not all of us played significant roles in the cult but I feel that, by declaring who we are, we may help those who may have known us in the past. Like you, I hope one day to meet some long-time friends here. That is the reason that I do not choose to use an alias. Just as your friends from the past will know who you are and will respect and trust you, I hope so will mine. I hope you meet your friends here.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:56:31 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Pat, thanks for what you said about aliases... Message:

Hi Pat, I just wanted to thank you for all that you've done/said to help folks here feel more comfortable about revealing their names. I've never had a problem with it myself. And I know why some can't reveal themselves, but in general, this forum is starting to become much more credible and civil. Putting our real names are on the line does make a difference. Love to you, Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:14:14 (GMT) From: michel donner Email: None To: guy rollins Subject: First post -- best wishes to you Guy Message:

hi guy...we know each other well but a public hello and thanks for posting. as m's long time archetet you will be able to share a unique perspective on his activities and manner of being. i know that being around him was not always easy. and of course, dido the alias thing mentioned above (below?) by pat conlon.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:16:13 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Goodnight children, everywhere Message:

The Great Worldwide Linkup

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 04:10:09 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: the Susan on link up is not this Susan Message:

just in case anyone wants to write me, that is not my email

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:21:19 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Susan Subject: Ah but that's the problem Message:

On a computer screen, one Susan looks the same as any other Susan. The difference does not compute, as HAL would say. So what to do? You could wish upon a star. Either that or give surnames.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:38:24 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: poor old HAL.daisy daisy give me your answer do nt Message:

zz

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:09:50 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Now that the page is back up ...... Message:

Time for a little more ELK jive but this time with commentary: Choosing joy Janice Wilson From Baldwinsville, New York This 'feeling' in my heart is the most wonderful thing I could ever feel, do, or be. I wouldn't trade it for anything. Without it I would truly be poor. It is so definitely worth the effort it takes to court and to keep, close inside a joy that has no bondage, a happiness that is truly free. She talks about a 'joy that has no bondage, a happiness that is truly free' but sounds like she's trying to maintain exactly the opposite: a transient emotion trapped under glass, a freeze-framed smile. I can't imagine a more quixotic pursuit. How pathetic, really, the idea that one can simply grab at happiness which is somehow waiting to be plucked like fruit on the vine. These premies have been strip-mined of their common sense. The ultimate irony is that, for all the talk of 'breath' and the like, they're not breathing. They're frozen. It is almost unbelieveable except for the fact that I don't see why human beings would be created to suffer, feel miserable. What would be the point? No, Janice, it IS unbelievable. Full stop. As for 'why human beings were created' well, first of all, who said we were created? And who says that we were created FOR some purpose? Anyway, is the alternative to being in your cult a life of misery and suffering? Define those, please. Tell me how your cult leader's got the patent on the lighter side of life. We know that, even with all his millions of corrupt loot and endless stables of fawning servants, arti pretty well anytime of the day or week, 24 / 7 -- he wants a little arti at three in the morning on some wild, lost weekend, he's got it! -- with all that he STILL is a miserable, paranoid alcoholic. So come on, Janice, you tell ME how it's suffering and misery for anyone NOT on the video subscription list. How wonderful we have been given a choice to choose the heaven inside our very own hearts. Consider the alternative? I want to keep choosing joy, even though it is hard work sometimes. And thank you for all your help ,Maharaji, continuously teaching me to go around any obstacles, choosing my home , sweet home inside of me again and again, always and forever. Sorry, Janice, this life of yours really does sound miserable. My condolences. **************** The difficulty of happiness Ivete Belfort Mattos: From Sao Paolo, Brazil Here in Sao Paolo we have quite a few aspirants now. Several of them are preparing to receive Knowledge on their own at home. One of them is a lady in a very difficult situation because of her health. Yet every week I give her at least three videos which she watches three times. If she wants more I supply them to her. Pathetic? This humourless dependency on videos as if .... as if what? Is there any content to any of these things? NOOoooOO! The most striking, signature element in the Hamster's talks is their vapidness. He has made a career out of saying nothing, torturing words that should be just general place-fillers, words that were never meant to serve any concrete, discrete purposes, and pretending that they do just that. So Yvette's friend needs to hear Maharaji talk about 'gratitude' and 'understanding' a bit more? Like how much? How much of that shit does she need before she's cauterized the wound and stopped the flow of thoughts that otherwise spring forth? I think the answer is that there's no bandaid strong enough to block the mind and so, alas, it's a lifetime of bandaids, one after the other, each good for a few minutes if that, for poor Yvette and her friends. She has never discussed the contents of the videos with me, but she shows them to her friends. And now they want to watch for themselves. Oh my god, this is just like 'Brave New World', isn't it? Everyone goes to the 'feelies', shares a big, cathartic (if highly manipulated and false) group high and leaves, without ever talking about, let alone analyzing, what they just 'shared' together. So the Hamster does likewise. Trots out some hackneyed straw men, really nothing more than the typical exigencies of life on planet earth, blames them all on the big common enemy, The Mind (or some such synonym), and unites the troops all over again. For a few minutes. Recently she said she wanted to talk to me. And a unique experience unfolded. She told me that the videos made her feel happy when her predicament should have made her unhappy. She said she felt guilty about this and that she also experienced a strange response from others who felt she must be crazy to feel this way. No comment, Yvette. Too rich for me to add anything. No fucking comment! She told me this with shining eyes. I said nothing but felt how the magic works. I gave her another tape. It really works. And the memory of her shining eyes remains with me now. This is sick. Shining eyes or not, this is sick.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:12:53 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Mate, I don't know how you keep up Message:

with those two? did you you know that they use a program for what the say, that is why they are so consistant?

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 04:18:26 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oh! Brave New World Message:

You said: ''...this is just like 'Brave New World', isn't it? Everyone goes to the 'feelies', shares a big, cathartic (if highly manipulated and false) group high and leaves, without ever talking about, let alone analyzing, what they just 'shared' together.'' But it's also as creepy as ''1984'' with Big Brother always on the ubiquitous televisions screens. As postie said, ''It put's the eerie in expeerience.''

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:59:44 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: all Subject: 'to suffer' Message:

'It is almost unbelieveable except for the fact that I don't see why human beings would be created to suffer, feel miserable. What would be the point?' There seems to be an implication here that without 'Knowledge', with 'the Master', a person will just suffer and be miserable. That's bullshit. But what's so bad about suffering anyway, except that it doesn't feel good? It's not supposed to! It's not the suffering that's 'bad' but whatever the particular cause happens to be. Suffering often serves a purpose, for example, physical pain represents injury, without it we would totally screw up our bodies. Hunger is a signal to eat, exhaustion is a signal to rest or sleep. Emotional pain can also serve a purpose. For example, if someone like Rawat is screwing someone over, the resulting emotional pain is a signal to do something about it. Anxiety or fear may be a signal that I'm in danger, or I may see that it as a signal that my body is inappropriately tense and to relax. It could be a false or true signal. Elan Vital gives the complex subject of suffering an oversimplistic treatment. It's like a drug pusher saying 'just take this drug and you won't feel any pain'. In the long run it doesn't work, pain is an inevitable part of life and frantic efforts to eliminate it just makes things worse. Pain needs to be dealt with appropriately. It's wise to respond to pain in an appropriate way to eliminate the cause, but sometimes nothing can be done about it. The last thing people need is to feel guilty about suffering, it doesn't help.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:44:40 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: all Subject: moral judgement re 'negative' feelings and thought Message:

'It is almost unbelieveable except for the fact that I don't see why human beings would be created to suffer, feel miserable. What would be the point?' More about this... In Rawat's cult (and elsewhere) there are often moralistic judgements against any kind of 'negative' feeling or thought, unless it's coming from Rawat or a honcho, then it's 'good'. Go figure. Everyone's supposed to put on a plastic smile and glassy eyes, never mind whether it's real. If someone's sad or angry they are viewed as being 'in their mind'. It's mind control. It's like ripping the teeth and claws off an animal, it leaves you defenseless, a docile victim. Examples: Rawat once told an instructor 'No tears' when her father died. Another time he told instructors, 'Some of you even hate me.', a very manipulative thing to say. He was implying that it was wrong for them to be angry about being abused by him!

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:30:11 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Now that the page is back up ...... Message:

I had more joy in a few hours at the pub Saturday than in twenty years in the cult. True, alcohol was a factor, alcohol which may be forbidden or served by the cult depending on the day. More mixed metaphor and mixed gramatical parts in the elkspeak than anywhere else I've seen. Plain English is a threat to the cult. That's how bad it's become. Stay well. There are lots of good times ahead. Steve

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:48:05 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Dalai Lama compared to M Message:

I know many regulars dislike anything that smacks of organized religion but a lot of PWKs do defend M by comparing him to the Pope or the Dalai Lama. 'Oh the Pope lives a wealthy lifestyle', etc. I watched a CNN Perspective last night on the Dalai Lama. The man doing the documentary gained close, intimate access to the Dalai Lama and it was most inspiring, mainly how human and humble he seems. Among other things, he awakens at 3:00 am every day to meditate and study, which does for 6 hours a day. The following quotes jumped out at me and I think they are in remarkable contrast to M. 'The more that people praise you, the more danger of developing arrogance.' 'People think of me as the living Buddha. This is silly. That's nonsense. If they think of me as a Tibetan Buddhist monk, then maybe I am that. Maybe a monk.'

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 07:26:11 (GMT) From: Suchabanana Email: None To: Postie Subject: m. like a Lard-greased rotund dolly llama... Message:

'Excuse me, I don't see your ticket for $250 [or my listing under 'big-time suckers'] to see His Holiness. Please exit to the rear, thank you.... Mach Schnell!!!' Peace and lentruths, da lil' swami PS It's ok, I still love you, Kundun, my brother! just a lil' commentary on pricing for the so holy audience...

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:09:44 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Postie and Everyone Subject: M compared to DL and found wanting(and wanting and Message:

wanting-yachts, mansions,etc etc) Hi postie. Must admit to being closet admirer of Dalai Lama myself. If anyone wants to receive free weekly quotes for his writings you can at: SnowLion_DLQuote@yahoogroups.com (sorry don't know how to make direct link) I know of a certain Hamster who might benefit from the following example : 'If one's life is simple, contentment has to come. Simplicity is extremely important for happiness. Having few desires, feeling satisfied with what you have, is very vital: satisfaction with just enough food, clothing, and shelter to protect yourself from the elements.' - His Holiness the Dalai from 'The Path to Tranquility: Daily Wisdom'

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:27:55 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: Hello Dally Message:

I especially like this quote: 'Religion? The religion is kindness.'

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:53:47 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Disculta Subject: great one! Thanks Disculta :) (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:27:49 (GMT) From: Babs Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com To: moldy warp Subject: DL's advice Message:

PWKs take note: 'I normally recommend to Buddhist practitioners not to see every action of their spiritual teacher as divine and noble. There are specific, very demanding qualities that are required of a spiritual mentor. You don't simply say, 'It is good behavior because it is the guru's.' This is never done. You should recognize the unwholesome as being unwholesome; so one might infer that it is worthwhile to criticize it.' The Path to Tranquility H.H. the Dalai Lama

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:02:51 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Babs Subject: DL visit to San Jose Message:

at this link http://www.medicinebuddha.org is information on the Dalai Lama's visit to San Jose May 17-20. He is also going to be in Southern California at some point but I do not know the details. San Jose is going to be at Shoreline Amphitheater, so it will be a zoo of a crowd. There is a public program that is $15 admission. Details on the site. I will say that my mother was a trouper and came to programs to see M. Kept her mouth shut, but once I was out of the cult, told me how scary it seemed. My father went with her, once my little brother too. She volunteered to go see DL at a free talk in Central Park in NYC, and to ride in on the train alone. It was her idea -- I never would have presumed to suggest it. She had nothing but wonderful things to say about it. He didn't tell her she needed to change her religion. She found it inspiring, relevant and non-threatening.

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:56:23 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Everyone Subject: dAWG wITH A gUN... Message:

dEPUTY DOG SEZ: . In fact, without Knowledge I would have probably ended up as one of those 'troubled loners' we've been hearing so much about lately. mE TOO i MEAN i aLREADY wAS, ER aM...

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:31:12 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: gErRy Subject: That's bullshit Message:

Knowledge is customed made for 'troubled loners'. What could be more troubling (and alone) than a lifestyle of just you, Maharaji (up on his stage out of reach), and you just 'going within', forsaking the world to find, therein, what you're looking for. It's a lifestyle made for loners. I know. I'm a loner (the real McCoy, a lot of people like to fancy themselves loners but aren't really) and I gravitated to Maharaji like a fly to poop. He was beautiful to me because he was encouraging me to let go of everything but him and Knowledge. A loner's dream, so Dep is, once again, slightly out of touch with reality about what this guru horseshit trip is about.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 07:15:42 (GMT) From: sUcH Email: None To: gErRy Subject: U 2? Buono!!! (nt Message:

tnt

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:10:46 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: hisself Subject: dAWG wITH A gUN REDUX... Message:

dam cap lock... How about that 'Dog? Mighta been a ''troubled loner'' if not fer nollige? LOL LOL That's a real knee slapper here in Grays Harbor County. How does he know this, exactly? Maybe he'd a been a meth tweeker with rotten teeth by now. Or maybe a serial killer instead of the terminal wanker he appears to have turned out to be? Who knows? Who really KNOWS what Deputy Dog might have become if not fer Nollige? It's scary, when you think about it...

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 04:09:01 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: gErRy Subject: Well it is fuckin' scary...[edited by FA] Message:

[offensive content edited out by FA] I, for one, am glad Deputy Dawg got Nollidge, no shit.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 04:33:19 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: gErRy Subject: Or Dep coulda turned into a jerk off FA Message:

Fascist!

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 08:05:42 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: gErRy Subject: theres always AG Message:

say it there

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:08:25 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: janet Subject: Don't fucking tell me what to do. Message:

I read this ridiculous (and hilarious, I thought) statement by-get this--fucking 'Deputy Dog' no less, that he might have become a 'troubled loner' like the ones in the news if not for Nollidge. So idecided to take the piss out of him for it. I compared DD without Nollidge as a potential serial killer and linked some sites to lives that maybe he might have emulated if not for K. It was a joke, ya know, like a parody. These were obvious LINKS to serial killer websites AND NOBODY HAD TO CLICK ON THEM UNLESS THEY WANTED TO DO SO. In other words, they had a FUCKING CHOICE, which they no longer have. This FA is a heavy handed censorial fascist fucking pig. And don't you, Janet, Miss Conformity of March 2001, tell me what to do, thank you.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:37:09 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: gErRy Subject: What a fucking cry-baby Message:

Jeezus gErRy what are you - twelve years old or sumfink? So the nasty FA person cut out those serial-killer links from your post, boo-fucking-hoo. From what he/she tried to explain, it was out of consideration for people like new readers who might be shocked and offended by it. Well if that's fascism Hitler gets my vote any day of the week. Grow up you wanker.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:08:34 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Bazza Subject: boo fucking hoo, indeed Message:

What's up, Baz? I've rarely ever 'talked' with you. We've hardly met. 'Grow up you wanker'? What brought that on? I don't know much about you, but it seems most times when there's a discussion about the FA's heavy-handed and unevenly applied censorship, you seem to chime in on the side of the FA. You sweet on him/her or sumfink? Related? From what he/she tried to explain, it was out of consideration for people like new readers who might be shocked and offended by it. Baz, come on now. This FA person didn't try to explain shit to me about anything. He/she just gutted my post and left it dangling there like some half eaten worm on a hook. Not very appetizing. I have consideration for new readers, but it was a link, fer chrissake and there is such a thing as free will. Yes, I have consideration enough, I guess. Well guess what, I'd rather leave than conform to your expectations, or that of some anonymous FA with a fat black pencil.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 06:16:46 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: gerry Subject: well not entirely your fault Message:

as it happens I'd just had a row with the wife so could be you caught a bit of my bad mood. Sorry if that was the case, hard to tell now. But you have to admit that calling the FA a heavy handed censorial fascist fucking pig was a bit strong given that he/she had the right intentions but maybe the wrong way of going about it. How about YOU giving HIM/HER a bit of slack? Maybe theyre new at it and havent got the hang quite yet (Anth and Nigel quit recently so who does that leave, IYO?) Seeing as you've done it yourself, why not offer advice in a more civilized way? Thats what made you come across as being juvenile, the way you let fly with both barrels just because your joke got screwed with. Do I always side with the FA? Maybe, haven't really thought about it, but so what? Nothing wrong with balancing out the arguments seeing as they rarely post in their own defence (policy ?) and right now it looks like 1 for and 6 against! Anyway ger I dont want to prolong this unnecessarily, if more needs to be said then say it, I'm good for a few more rounds. Maybe its because we are strangers - no rapport yet, maybe that can be remedied at a Latvian night some time, I might make it to the west coast one coming up, you going? Amazing what a few pints and some unruly bar songs can do to bond people.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:20:20 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: gErRy Subject: Art or pornography..parody or Incitement Message:

Hi Gerry ....yep I think the censors scissors should be locked up and only brought out ( if ever ) .....well ....when should they be used? .....jeeze that's a hard one to answer.... Being so dependent on a persons( the censors) subjective opinion ......deciding to cut or not to cut......that is the question. The other day a London art gallery was raided by police constable plod of scotland yard...actually it was a high ranking officer acting on a tip from the tabloid press......an American artist/mother living in London was displaying some photographs which included pictures of her two naked children....sort of holiday snaps raised to level of Art ( according to some admiring critica) and blatant pornography (according to others). It's created a big debate about censorhip....the eye ( and motive ) of the beholder .Like is it inherently pornographic or is it only pornographic through the eyes of a ' pervert'. Also , a government minister (the culture secretary ) stepped in and hinted that the cops should lay off the art galleries as it was reminicsent of the 60's when cops were acting on a whim trying to close down all sorts of exhibitions etc. In this current case ...the goverments Home Secretary ( a more powerful position than culture sec) is a pretty right wing guy(he's proud of trying to end trial by jury in certain cases and a raft of other reactionary measures) may step in and defend the cops actions.Maybe. And your parody with links to serial killer sites.....well ....aren't we all grown-up adults here ? I think so. Why should the FA worry about peoples sensibilities in order to present a nice cosy unconfrontational image of this site to the outside world. Like you point ....people can CHOOSE and people can DISCRIMINATE ...you know, drag out the cliches.....'one mans meat etc etc ' I've noticed an increasing tendancy to cut material here .....that could just be an impression.....I don't have statistics to back it up. To me the other parts of this site make up a cohesive whole. It's clear and it's comprehensive and it's pretty much well put otgether. Inside it is a FORUM. In the forum one would expect all sorts of expression .....or do we just exxpect and desire a nice , safe, cosy , middle of the road, middle class environment to feel snug and respectable? Having said all that .....I'm back at the beginning .....ie it's a hard question to answer .....art or pornography? parody or incitement? ......But I know instinctively where my tendencies lie ......use the scissors only after a LOT of thought ( not just on a whim or the prevailing mood spin) if you have to use them at all. Then again .....that's just my opinion haha.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:55:05 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Dermot Subject: I heard of that Message:

The 'art' is a picture of the 'artist's' 7 year old son pissing in the snow. Christ, anybody can take pictures of their kids taking a whiz. Cute, but hardly art, I don't think. But I also don't think it's anything to get your knickers in a bunch over. Now, what we've got going on at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City is what controversy in art is really about. There's a picture called 'Yo Mama's Last Supper' depicting a nude woman (that's a nude black woman) as Jesus Christ at The Last Supper. The mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani, wants to have it abolished and put into effect new 'laws of decency' as a result. Hey, maybe Giuliani is the new FA! Ya think?

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:26:01 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Jerry Subject: I heard of that too Message:

yep I heard about the Guiliani/censorship trip.....well there are always good votes available from the religious lobby....give the guy a break ....he's got to make a living somehow! Yeah the London pics....well actually one pic of the 7 yo daughter and the 4yo son on the beach with masks hiding their faces. And another of the boy pissing in the snow at a ski resort with the girl in the background. They were actually just like family holiday pics ....prob like millions around the world. How they are transormed into art ? simple .....put them in an arty environment ....get a load of arty people to say how beautiful and illuminating they are .....and hey presto ....they are worth loads of dosh!! Actually Charles Saatchi ( a big collector over here) bought them and thus infused them with special artistic meaning hahaah. But....quality of art apart .....there's still the question of when or when not to cut. It's a big debate with no black and white .....right and wrong .....easy answers. cheers.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:00:14 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: gErRy Subject: Ooops! I'm with Gerry on this one Message:

I saw that post, actually thought it was kind of funny (not that that matters) and, now that you mention it, think it was rather needlessly censored. Come on, FA, why do that? Gerry's right. Those serial killer websites were just linked to to make the obvious point that Dawg can't say what he'd have become if he hadn't found the cult or the cult found him. That's all.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:34:12 (GMT) From: Forum Administrator Email: None To: Jim Subject: Judgement call Message:

I saw the humor in it also, however you may have noticed there are a number of new people here, many of whom have mentioned being initially put off by unpleasantness in some of the posts. My initial reaction was that the links to the serial killer websites were unnecessary, irrelevant and potentially upsetting to some people. Guess we can't please everybody. Sorry gErRy. FA#3

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 22:42:47 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com To: Everyone Subject: Sure cure for fence-sitting blues Message:

I love this quote: 'When you do something right, there will always be those who criticize you; when you do something wrong, there will be no one around to stop you.' Maharaji. Wrong, Rev Rawat. We are telling you that you are wrong. The final drip for me happened three months ago when I watched the video of Maharaji's seminar on propaganda in Barcelona. When he began prancing around the stage showing off as usual and contradicting himself with every breath I turned it off. My only thought was, ''Rawat is a sleazy scumbag.'' Well, I finished watching it and I could not believe that I had never seen what an pompous arrogant and immoral if not crazy little jerk he is. He is surrounded in a smallish room by the creme de la creme of Pewkies. There's John Horton sitting all eyes looking like a weird marsupial on acid. The church ladies are oohing and aahing as the Master dribbles pure bovine excrement from his jowly lips. What a relief to get that evil, stupid and greedy little man out of my life. I'm beginning to feel whole and normal for the first time in years. The man was like a monkey on my back that I was so embarassed about. How the hell do you hold your head up high in a free country and tell people you've got a fucking MASTER and he just happens to be this little Hindu scam-artist with no respect for law or honor or common decency or anyone's intelligence? If you have any remnants of doubt left - get that video out of the Pewkie library. It'll cure you of Maharaj Jism instantaneously. Have you seen this web-site Maharaji Revised

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 08:09:24 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: theres one person to stop you---YOU!!!! Message:

everyone seems to forget that it starts with oneself.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:00:42 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Here's another poetic bauble' Message:

I wonder why this is so hard But have I ever heard my heart? Well, Lardy, we're wondering the same thing about you.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:32:15 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Sure cure for fence-sitting blues Message:

You know, I haven't any idea what he looks or sounds like any more. Maybe I should watch that video with youse some time mate.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:18:16 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: Katie, sweetie Dahling, I'm making a copy for Joe Message:

I'll make one for you.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 08:10:52 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: i'll take a copy. never saw it b4 nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:17:55 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Sure cure for fence-sitting blues Message:

Fab visit to site - Sound effects of me snorting with derision - particularly over last 2 lines of one of god-in-a-bod's 'poems' Conflict is, it will be over Heart will win, I will be sober (!!!)

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:08:04 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: I am deconstructing why ... Message:

people in wierd religions have to retreat from the world. You put the nail on the head there, Pat. I was wondering why someone I know keeps a certain distance from the world of the nonprems. I'm guessing that it goes sort of like this: Don't get too close -- I can't tell discuss what I really believe. It's my secret; my little inner smile. I believe that a fat little Indian guy is GOD. And I dote on everything he says, and I dote on his family and his world. So we can talk about some stuff, but I can't be totally honest about my core beliefs, although they take up a good part of my thoughts and actions. So what do we have to talk about, other than a few superficial things that anyone can relate to? Being in wierd cults and religions makes one truly dysfunctional. In order to have a sense of balance here and not pick on the pewkies too much, wierd religions aren't the only preoccupations that can have that effect. Having strange fetishes that occupy a goodly chunk of one's thoughts and obsessions is another one. Being in an abusive relationship with someone who mentally or emotionally abuses you is another. I could go on. Whenever you have something strange you have to keep in the closet, you withdraw. So a committed premie has to withdraw quite a bit. Someone just superficially following K, not such a big deal.

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:15:44 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Francesca Subject: I am deconstructing why ... Message:

I am making notes of what the Scamster said and will post them later. It is truly mind-blowing. Of course he blames the mahatmas for introducing Hinduism and says that he never said any of that. It's too good (bad) to just give snippets. I'll post more.

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:39:30 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: 'my little inner smile' Message:

Francesca describing cultishness said: 'I can't tell you or discuss what I really believe. It's my secret; my little inner smile.' I was thinking about the inscrutable comment that most CPP's (currently practicing premies) say when challenged about their beliefs. 'It's my own experience.' This is what M encourages PWK's to say. Well, that is difficult to talk about with them because only they know what their own experience is. It's totally subjective. But here's the Achilles heel of that stance. 'My own experience' is a moving target. It changes according to how I want it to change. So if I'm challenged by anything that doesn't jive with 'my inner experience', I can wiggle around until it does. So I don't even have to be accountable to my own belief system, I can change it whenever I get uncomfortable. Let's say you tell your family 'Guru Maharaj Ji is greater than God', for example. Later you sheepishly tell them you've changed your mind - he's a humanitarian leader, etc. You've declared your belief to your family and made yourself accountable by the first statement. Because of that accountability, you've had to make a second statement to correct the first statement or else you would be held to the first. If it's all 'my inner experience' then only I know what I believe and how frequently I change that belief. Not healthy and not honest.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:56:58 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Postie Subject: Belief systems come ... belief systems go ... Message:

nothing ever happens here. What it is, what it is, what it is The way I see it (today -- belief systems come, belief systems go) is that if there is an all encompassing energy, god as some call it, emptiness as the Buddhist call it, light and energy as the new agers call it, and on and on == at each point in time we look at it through our particular mindsets, obscurations, or new levels of freedom, create a way of saying it or a new set of definitions, and that becomes part of our belief system for a while. Some people never seem to evolve, 'that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.' But even they evolve a little over time. I guess what I'm trying to say is that although there is something inside us that seems to know, to be in constant contact with our true groundless ground, the vehicle with which I perceive it is either in a constant state of refinement or degeneration, depending upon the day of the week! Right on, Postie! what it is --f

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 16:39:21 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Postie Subject: wiggle room Message:

Great Post, this thing about a subjective experience as a moving target perfectly describes the delimmia, the facade for many practicing premies. Gettin someone to own up to reclaiming their own experience is a daunting task after years of cult speak and indoctrination. Just Knowing that we are shifting our experience around at the whim and discretion of some one who we have given power of attorney over our free will may well be one of the first steps in fumbling for the light switch and shining truth on this cult and master bullshit that we bought. Much food for thought here Postie

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:02:11 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: ***Forum Imaginative Spelling Contest*** Message:

'delimmia'? We're sending this one off to the lab.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:27:29 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'Delimmia' is bulimia for the mind (nt) Message:

delimmia

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:48:17 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Postie Subject: Postie, you're right but it's even worse than that Message:

What's so perverse is that premies will even use that conversation stopper, 'exp****nce', to describe decidedly non-personal, non-subjective, even non-experiencial things. For example, premie-ji says that Maharaji's going to make Amaroo the jewel of western civilization. 'How do you know that, premie-ji?' 'Well, I don't really, but it IS my experience.' Might not be the best example but the point's there. This word, 'exp****nce', is a brain-wave jammer. That's been my experience anyway.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:22:10 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jim Subject: But it's even worse than that - Barcelona Pt 2 Message:

Propagation Seminar in Barcelona, 2000 Maharaji addresses an audience of about 80 to 100 people in a hotel ballroom. The Pewks are seated around the edges of three sides and Rev Rawat occupies the fourth side surrounded by an array of corporate CEO-type sales-hype toys: a white drawing board, desk with laptop PC, lectern etc. He walks around all through the sermon with a felt-tip pen in his hand acting very dotcommy, with one hand in his pocket and (I kid you not) his tongue often in his cheek. He sticks his tongue in the left cheek pouch between his bottom teeth and bottom lip whenever he tells a joke or says something which he thinks is profound or clever. While doing this fifth technique he is pulling a face which I think is meant to be a kooool California smile or perhaps a Bush-lite smirk. The sermon is about the who, what, how of propagating Knowledge. Examples: ''Should everybody have Knowledge?'' He asks and puts his tongue in his cheek. Then he looks at audience mischievously smirks and says: ''I see some of you nodding and others shaking their heads.'' He then does not answer the question (as he never does answer any questions) but non-sequiturs into another topic. He blames the mahatmas for introducing Hinduism and says that it is not fair to blame him for this as some people do because he has said from the beginning that it is not a religion. He speaks as if the audience knows of the criticisms being levelled at him. The audience is after all quite exclusive, mostly rich Pewks and industrial strength church ladies. He tells them that the most dangerous time to talk about Knowledge is when they are ''feeling that fuzzy feeling, you know the warm fuzzy feeling.'' He then says that it is dangerous because they will introduce concepts about who Maharaji is and that they should have NO concepts about the Master neither about what he is or isn't. And that they do not have to exaggerate his accomplishments or importance even if they are tempted too. With his last pronouncement he puffs himself up and grins as the audience applauds. All those self-conscious flirtatious attention-getting tactics used to work when he was a chubby pretty little boy but he is now a dumpy, jowly, pompous old fool. The whole act comes off as a spin-control to the share-holders. These Pewks are after all the financial back-bone of the industry in the west. He looks like a huckster trying to impress pyramid scheme suckers that their ''investment'' will pay off big eventually. Every five minutes or so he walks over to the desk and pushes just one key on the laptop then turns and swivels the pen in the air and says things like: ''Somewhere in Canada there is one guy who has shown the most impressive figures so far. I mean he is bringing more people to Maharaji than anybody else. How does he do it? Well, let me show you.'' He goes to the drawing board. It already has a wobbly circle drawn on it. He draw a small wedge in the circle with his felt-tip pen and says, ''This is how small a part actual propagation, introducing someone to Knowledge for the first time, is. The rest is keeping them there.'' He then wipes the small wedge out and turns to the audience with a flourish. They applaud and he grins from ear to ear having just demonstrated what a wonderful CEO he really is in that he was able to draw a wedge inside a pre-drawn circle and then erase it. ''So how does this guy do it?'' he asks; ''What is he doing right that make his figures the most impressive? Well, apparently this guy has studied every video in the local library and knows them all so well that he knows just exactly the right video to give to the right person to introduce them to Maharaji. That is the way to propagate Knowledge.'' Enough already. I have simply written what I saw not what I was thinking when I saw it. Let it speak for itself. He is truly an embarassment to civilized, intelligent people. It is hard to believe that people like John Horton were in the audience. Well, actually maybe not. I've known plenty of other dumb doctors in my 30 years in that business. When it is over you come any not having learned anything. He has not answered any specific questions. He has told them that everybody should have Knowledge but that not everybody will be interested. He has said that they should tell people about Knowledge but that they should not talk about it. He has basically again said nothing as usual - hot air. But the Pewks got the vibe I guess and that got them high and they felt so inspired and then they just wanted to tell everybody the good news when they got home but of course no one really wanted to here about a greedy selfish guru and they couldn't talk about it anyway so it's back to straightening out white table cloths at the video event held every week for the one aspirant who does not always show up.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 17:06:27 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Are you sure this was Barcelona Message:

Hi Pat, Are you sure this was Barcelona? Your description precisely fits the Broadcast I watched, and recorded, and transcribed sections from last Dec in a thread entitled 'Miragey's Recent Diatribe' now in 'Best of forum'. Did you read that? This was a sort of Amalgum of two 'trainings', one from Atlanta, where his performance was exactly as you described, and one from Amaroo. It was also my next to last drip, and I have kept a copy in case I ever need to be reminded of just how awful he can be. Love Kelly

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 18:23:20 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Are you sure this was Barcelona - No Message:

Now that you mention it I think it is the Atlanta program. The crusty premie who records broadcats for me must havebeen stoned when he wrote Barcelona on the tape. I will look up your transcription. Any hints about what date your post was on and the name of the thread.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 21:45:02 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk To: Pat Conlon Subject: Are you sure this was Barcelona - No Message:

Dear Pat, I told you it's in 'Best of Forum', new thread, started by me, Kelly, called 'Maharaji's recent diatribe' Dec 6th (I think)you can access it through EPO,(I checked it before I posted to you) if all else fails..start by going to the Michael Dettmers posts. Incidentally I sent him a copy of the tape. It occurs to me that you could combine your brilliant description of his strutting arrogance, with quotes from my transcription to very good effect. When you find the thread, read the posts by Patrick also. I just can't believe that anyone could sit through that stuff,it is so unbelievably patronising. We had an absolutely brilliant Latvian night...but I'm feeling a bit flatvian now! love Kelly

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 00:54:19 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Thanks Kelly - got it! Message:

I don't even have the excuse of a Latvian hangover.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:28:08 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: But it's even worse than that - Barcelona Pt 2 Message:

Can we get copies. This is too good - or bad to be true. Your description was great. Cheers Peter Howie

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 08:08:33 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: Peter - it's a recording of a satellite broadcast Message:

I'm not sure if it was ever sold as a video by Visions International. But try your local Pewk libarary and see if you still have access to it.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 13:53:51 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: like Mussolini Message:

'He tells them that the most dangerous time to talk about Knowledge is when they are 'feeling that fuzzy feeling, you know the warm fuzzy feeling.' He then says that it is dangerous because they will introduce concepts about who Maharaji is and that they should have NO concepts about the Master neither about what he is or isn't. And that they do not have to exaggerate his accomplishments or importance even if they are tempted too. With his last pronouncement he puffs himself up and grins as the audience applauds. All those self-conscious flirtatious attention-getting tactics used to work when he was a chubby pretty little boy but he is now a dumpy, jowly, pompous old fool.' That reminds me of the film clip of Mussolini puffing himself up as he gobbles up the adoration of a crowd of admirers. Pompous. So people are supposed to have NO concepts about what the title 'the Master' means. That makes it a meaningless title. Rawat would like the title 'the Master' to supposedly have no surface meaning but have hidden meaning anyway. He doesn't want to be held to any standards that he doesn't live up to. He wants no accountability, no responsibility. That way, he can behave like the asshole that he is and not be 'judged' (i.e. seen for what he really is). At the same time he wants the hidden meaning to be as subliminal as possible so that it can't be scrutinized.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:26:56 (GMT) From: Charles S. Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: G Subject: EXACTLY! Well said, G. (nt) Message:

a

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:51:53 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Charles S. Subject: An idea - juxtipose pictures Message:

Here's an idea, juxtipose pictures of Rawat next to pictures of various characters based on expression. Puffed up Rawat next to Mussolini, serious Rawat next to the Godfather, Rawat in Krishna drag next to a drag queen, etc.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 09:37:48 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: But it's even worse than that - Barcelona Pt 2 Message:

Well what you saw ....and the way you told it ...has just cracked me up with laughter. At least he didnt show slides of the amount of dahl consmed at the last Indian prog haah.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:52:16 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Dermot, the slide show, pie chart programs Message:

of how many lentils were consumed by how many Indian aspirants were the first ''drips'' which began my exit. This last ''seminar'' was when the dam finally burst.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:43:59 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Pat's post here is a must-read Message:

I just can't wait for Barry to make that Maharaji punch 'em doll he was talking about. Better be thick rubber, is all I can say.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 04:05:01 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaji Rubber punch-bag Message:

Thanks for that Jim. I can't quite bring myself to watch it again to transcribe it word for word but maybe one day. I got rid of all my videos except that one because it is so perfect an example of his spchiel in the west. I also kept Hans Jayanti 2000 for contrast because it shows him talking to people whom he still addresses as ''premies'' and orders them to do ''service'' to the ''Satguru'' and listen to his ''satsang.'' In India his act is very different. Instead of the CEO, he is the Maharaja condescending to address his subjects. He is play-acting and always has been. He does not have a sincere bone in his body.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:17:24 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yeah Jim, M puts the eerie in expeerience. (nt) Message:

eerie

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 05:17:53 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Postie Subject: Hey, that's not bad (for a pun, I mean) (nt) Message:

gggggg

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 22:42:17 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Amaroo web site roast Message:

How about roasting the www.amaroo.org web site? It's easy. From the 'Welcome' page: '...Its red soil, green mountains and turquoise lagoons are home to the koala, the kookaburra and the kangaroo.' Before it said 'Its red soil, green mountains and turquoise lagoons spawned the koala, the kookaburra and the kangaroo.' I guess they realized how stupid that sounded. 'Long hours of sunshine bathe its tropical rain forests, fertile farmlands and woodlands covered with eucalyptus trees.' This means you're gonna fry in the tropical sun. Another sadistic 'ha ha' from haharaji. 'Australia beckons people to live life outdoors....' Actually continents don't beckon people to do anything. It's haharaji that is 'beckoning' the pwikies to pay high prices for staying in a second-rate campground in the Australian outback. And no, it's not glamorous. From 'Event facilities': 'Ivory's Rock Conference Centre is located in grounds covered with natural forest and parklands. It is home to an abundance of wildlife, with many species of birds and wallabies' Not to mention a former cow pasture. As for wallabies, I never saw one there. They forgot to mention the snakes, oh, that falls under 'wildlife'. 'It is located in the centre of the Peak Mountains and the natural beauty of the area includes a large lake, a billabong, and attractive creeks and rockpools.' I wouldn't call the former cow pasture beautiful. 'large lake'? What large lake? I saw a little lake and a creek. I've seen more attactive creeks near where I live, I don't need to go to Australia to see a creek. 'Wake up to the sound of birdcalls and the sight of wallabies grazing quietly in the morning dew.' I never saw a wallabie there. I did see plenty in a zoo and the zoo cost far less money. Rawat has an obsession with morning dew, what's with that? 'grazing quietly in the morning dew', that's about as good wording as 'The air was clean and the skies were dauntingly dark blue.' (from Rawat's journey at www.maharaji.org). 'Fully equipped safari style tents, and specially designed 'Pents' give you the utmost comfort while retaining the joys of camping. Well appointed male and female bathrooms complete your comfortable stay.' Since when are tents 'fully equipped'? Are they air conditioned? Do they have TV and a stereo? a bathroom? I think not. They're just tents. And just how is a tent going to give 'the utmost comfort'? I think a nice bed in a hotel would be MUCH more comfortable. They don't say much about these bathrooms (I wonder why), just 'Well appointed', whatever that means. Did they mean 'Well attended'? I don't know, probably not. Since when is broiling in tropical sun, constantly being bothered by flies, and getting dehydrated 'comfortable'? How does it go? Something about 'Tell them to go to hell, and make them glad they are going there.' Fine dining: 'Work has just started on building the permanent Fine Dining restaurant for Amaroo 2001 in April but chefs in many parts of the world have been planning the food for months.' Means the restaurant isn't there yet. Some pwikie cooks worked on the menu. BFD. 'Fine Dining will be available for lunch and dinner over six days, with only one sitting for each meal. 'This will allow a more relaxed and enjoyable environment,' Steve says.' For the kind of prices they're charging, you should be able to come back and eat some more. I wonder why they are stating this rule. The purpose of the rule is obviously not as Steve suggests. 'Dinner starts no earlier than 90 minutes after the event for the day ends, allowing diners to dress up before strolling over to the Piazza in the Pavilion where they'll get a shuttle to the restaurant.' So you have to wait an hour and a half after the event before you can eat. They try to make a virtue out of this. Great, you can 'dress up' by putting on some crumpled clothes in your tent, then 'stroll over' (i.e. hike) to the bus. Why a bus? Where is this fine dining happening? Maybe they rented a cheap restaurant in Ipswich. Greeted upon arrival, guests will be shown to the bar or the lounge where they can relax with a drink beside the fire. 'When they're ready they'll be introduced to the hostess and maitre d' and escorted to their table,' Steve says. When you get there, you'll be checked to make sure you PAID. You won't be able to start eating yet, you've got to WAIT. When WHO's ready? '...a sumptuous array of delicacies including seafood, lamb, beef, chicken, noodles, rice, grains, vegetables and a number of different sauces developed by international chefs.' Oh yes, chicken and rice are delicacies. I don't see caviar listed. There they go again with 'international chefs' (some pwikie cooks who live in more than one country). 'Lunch will be a 'prix fixe' menu of a set starter, main course and dessert. It'll be a little more casual than the evening dinner but still a fine dining experience,' Steve says.' 'prix fixe' is their fancy way of saying you're paying a fixed price for a no choice meal, you eat what's put in front of you and that's all. If you don't like it, tough luck. What 'a little more casual' means they don't explain.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:53:55 (GMT) From: Suzanne Email: None To: G Subject: Amaroo web site roast Message:

'Ivory's Rock Conference Centre is located in grounds covered with natural forest and parklands. As opposed to unnatural forests and parklands. What, are they taking credit for the fact that the trees aren't plastic? Greeted upon arrival, guests will be shown to the bar or the lounge where they can relax with a drink beside the fire. Right. You get greeted and taken to the bar to spend money on drinks before you get fed. I feel so relaxed already. Greeted by whom. Steve? 'When they're ready they'll be introduced to the hostess and maitre d' and escorted to their table,' Steve says. When who is ready? The hungry people or the restaurant? What is the difference between being 'maitre d'' (is that a word?) and 'escorted?' Is this because you might have to wait so long you will be drunk and can't escort yourself to the table?

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:08:20 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Suzanne Subject: We've got non-plastic trees and a maitre d' Message:

'What, are they taking credit for the fact that the trees aren't plastic?' LOL maitre d' is short for maitre d'hotel (headwaiter, a diningroom attendant who is in charge of the waiters and the seating of customers)

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:14:54 (GMT) From: Suzanne Email: None To: G Subject: We've got non-plastic trees and a maitre d' Message:

Yeah, but it seemed like they were using maitre d' as a verb. Was I reading that wrong?

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 02:40:55 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Suzanne Subject: 'hostess and maitre d' and escorted' Message:

'When they're ready they'll be introduced to the hostess and maitre d' and escorted to their table,' Steve says. This is a case of ambiguous wording, another example of poor writing. They shouldn't assume that everyone knows what 'maitre d'' means. It looks too much like 'maitred', which isn't a verb but looks like one. A verb could be used in this position. They are trying to seem so chique but end up looking foolish.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:29:54 (GMT) From: A Former Aspirant Email: None To: G Subject: Amaroo is HELL Message:

It is a fucking hell-hole in the middle of a parched desert, which itself is in the middle of fucking NOWHERE. I saw that website too. Makes it sound like Club Med. Give me a break. It was a primitive, barren, parched, bug-infested hell-hole. That's what it is. A few years ago, I had the stupidity to belive stupid fucking premies, and a stupid fucking Instructor, and go to Amaroo for the cult-fest in that God-foresaken place. I spent thousands of dollars to sleep in a fucking tent, and paid more money to eat crappy food. The UV factor there must be 90. You get fried like a raisin, eat shitty food in the desert, and have to sit and listen to fatso blabb on about nothing. Then, they all lined up, like the cult-saps they are, and kissed his fucking feet. I couldn't fucking believe it. I was just waiting for them to bring out the Kool Aid. I couldn't wait to get out of there. And if you mentioned to anyone that you weren't having a blissful time, they looked at you like you were nuts, but most of the cultists didn't look like they were having such a good time either. I saw people freaked out and kids screaming. It was about as much fun as sitting in the fucking desert in the fucking frying heat with a bunch of grinning idiots, and spending a fortune to sleep in a tent I could not afford. It was a treat I will never forget. I can't believe that anybody who was ever there once would ever PAY MONEY to go there again. Amaroo is hell on earth, at least when it's full of crazy cult members and their bizarre cult leader.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 01:50:35 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: A Former Aspirant Subject: Just waiting for them to bring out the Kool Aid Message:

Thanks for that post Former Aspirant. I guess if you are not interested in having a scuba vacation in the underwater wonder-world of the Great Barrier Reef or taking in a world-class opera in Sydney or frolicking on the incredibly beautiful beaches, then Amaroo most be exciting.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:35:55 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: G Subject: The Sadist Maharaji Message:

'Long hours of sunshine bathe its tropical rain forests, fertile farmlands and woodlands covered with eucalyptus trees.' This means you're gonna fry in the tropical sun. Another sadistic 'ha ha' from haharaji. Do you remember at one of those awful Kissimme-swamp festivals, when we were sitting in the boiling sun and Maharaji sat on that throne and bragged about how there was a 'wall of air conditioning' surrounding him? There were various electronic controls in the console of the throne that let Maharaji adjust the temperature to be oh so comfortable, while we fried. I wouldn't be surprised if they had some kind of similar thing for him to sit on in Amaroo. Heaven forbid that he might be uncomfortable. I'd love to see the day he slept in a tent, or used the 'male and female' restrooms.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 22:01:32 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Joe Subject: The Sadist Maharaji Message:

Oh yes, when I was at Amaroo he was shaded when he blabbed. There was at least one fan, probably two. Did he have to walk long distances, hell no, he had a jeep. I think there is a tie-in between that and the name 'Jeep Nominees' (the company that owns Amaroo on behalf of Rawat). I didn't even get to see where he stayed, it was off-limits. Notice that there is no layout shown of the Amaroo site. What kind of pad does he have there? We don't even know.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:46:13 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joe Subject: Maharaji's throne at Kissimee Message:

was so huge because it had ac built into it - little airvents blowing up the fat bottom to stop the sweat from trickling down his butt-crack.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:38:47 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: nigerl@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: G Subject: Amaroo web site roast Message:

You might have also mentioned: ...and woodlands covered with eucalyptus trees.' ???? Perhaps they mean 'eucalyptus forest', 'eucalyptus woods' etc., but these 'woodlands', themselves comprising trees, are seemingly covered with trees. Well I saw some spectacular stuff in Australia but not that.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 00:16:35 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Good catch, and more... Message:

Yes, it's redundant and confusing, it translates to 'lands covered with trees covered with eucalyptus trees.' With all their talk about 'Communications', you would think they would proofread their website. From FAQs: 'April weather at Amaroo is lovely. ... some rain is likely ... Amaroo's environment and climate can be demanding. The grounds of Ivory's Rock Conference Centre are meant for walking. Please bring enclosed walking shoes and clothes that will protect you from the sun. Suncream, long sleeved shirts and broad brimmed hats are highly recommended. Please also bring some warmer clothes for cool evenings and nights.' Let's see, even though the weather's 'lovely', it 'can be demanding', i.e. 'WILL be HARSH', tropical sun fries your skin. 'Suncream'? Did they mean sunscreen? What SPF do they recommend? This shows they really don't give a shit about peoples' welfare. I used sunscreen, etc. and still got burnt. How's the environment 'demanding', do they mean watch out for the poisonous snakes? And the flies! 'meant for walking' means you'll have to walk a lot, not good for handicapped people, is it? I did see handicapped people there having a hard time. As to what they mean by 'enclosed' I don't know.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:12:49 (GMT) From: TD Email: None To: G Subject: They don't mention darshan in their 1997 history Message:

Not a word about it in their review of past 'conventions'....

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:19:28 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: G Subject: I also like the US dollars ... Message:

but the Euro suav-ay terms like 'cheque' instead of 'check' ad nauseum. And all the rishy shishi terms like 'prix fixe.' They certainly aren't subtle in courting the Gucci loafer set.

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:59:27 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Francesca Subject: An appeal to snobbery Message:

It figures that Rawat would do this, he's been doing it for so long in one way or another. Real humility is not encouraged by the cult, it never has been, instead it fosters a dual inferiority/superiority complex. Why US dollars? As usual, they don't explain.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:01:57 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: G Subject: Who is 'Steve?' Message:

And why is he the one commenting on the food? It's almost like he is being set up to blame when the food is crap.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:08:21 (GMT) From: DV Email: None To: Joe Subject: Who is 'Steve?' Message:

Steve did a lot of security, opened and/or ran a restuarant in West Palm Beach ( Italian, of course). Never made it there before it closed. At a Miami program at the convention center a couple years ago premies were encouraged in the written program to eat at a restaurant on Lincoln Rd Mall. I ate there, and talked to Steve, who had done the deal with the restaurant to sell volume pasta something or other dishes. He was making about 2k on the weekend deal. Food was ok. Hey, gotta make money somewhere!

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:15:04 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Joe Subject: Steve Sitnick - fall guy Message:

Steve's the 'Food and Beverage manager' (i.e. fall guy). Anyone remember him? You're right, it does seem that way. This way Rawat can claim he didn't know about it and blame his 'volunteers' - as usual. Can you imagine a CEO of a company not taking responsibility for the performance of the company? People wouldn't buy it. A good manager accepts this responsibility. Oh, but Rawat isn't the leader of Elan Vital, is he? Yea, right. He is but he isn't. And 2 + 2 = 5.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:21:26 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: G Subject: Steve Sitnick - fall guy Message:

Yeah, I remember Steve, vaguely. When I was in Chicago, I remember Rainbow Grocery there used to furnish some of the food sold at festivals. I think Denver Rainbow did as well. Steve Kristen from Chicago was put in charge of food service at some programs. I remember the food at Kissimee was awful. I think only cold food was available. And the cult made a lot of money on selling the food to captive and hungry premies. But being in Florida, the orange juice was good, as I recall.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:37:14 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Joe Subject: Steve Sitnick - instructor? Message:

Wasn't he also an instructor / initiator? Nice guy, big smile.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:22:17 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Postie Subject: I remember Steve Sitnick Message:

He was in NYC when I was a premie there, buds with Ted Tannenbaum, in the days when Larry Lustbader made satsang exciting. I liked Steve, but he did seem a bit cultish, even to my cultish self, so I guess I'm not surprised he's still in there. What do I mean by that, I ask myself. Well, he used to give satsang with such a look of glazed dissociation. He was so loyal by nature, and somehow MJ got and has kept his loyalty.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 04:16:46 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Me too... Message:

I used to do security with Steve way back when. I always enjoyed his company because he was a nice guy and he was just as willing to chit chat as I was. Plus, he'd order out for pizza for those of us on those monster-long shifts (which we all considered such a treat). What cheap dates we were. ;->> Guess I'm kind of surprised to hear he's still involved.

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 03:22:05 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Me too... Message:

He lost a hell of a lot of weight and came as an Instructor to Australia for a while (early 80's). He stayed in our ashram at Bondi for a bit. He was great because he actually cared about us - showed us respect. I met him some years later at a Miami program and he was so sweet and invited me and half of the audience back to his place for a feed. His shelves contained only pasta and canned tomatoes. I enjoyed him adn his company. Instructor life didn't suite him - hes too much a people person. Cheers Peter

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 21:55:33 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Forum Adm: What happened? nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 22:01:00 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: la-ex Subject: What happened? Search me! Message:

That is really a question for Brian, who has control over the mechanics of the domain. The FAs just moderate the forum. So until Brian posts an answer to this, we're as much in the dark as you. Sorry. FA#2

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:16:04 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Forum Admin Subject: What happened? Search me! Message:

We were out of town over the weekend. The server went down during that time. I called them this morning, and it's back up now. That pretty much covers it :)

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:23:47 (GMT) From: Charles S. Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Brian Subject: Yes, but isn't there more that could be done... Message:

... to prevent repeats of this happening in the future? I don't know all the techincal problems, and no server is immune from crashing EVER, but this server seems to crash more than many others I've seen. Even if you were out of town, shouldn't someone have been monitoring it, and got it up again without waiting for a complaining phone call on Monday? I'm just wondering if this is a problem money could fix, by hosting the site on a more expensive (reliable) server? A whole lot of interesting things happened on forum V just before the server went down. How many premies check out the site on weekends, when they have the time to surf? How many might have found it in a search engine, only to discover the links didn't work? They may have thought it was defunct, and not checked again two days later to see if the server had ''come up'' again. I hate to think of the lost opportunities to reach people. I don't mean to be just complaining or nagging, I just wanted to say, if help is needed to make the site more stable or find another server, I or others would like to help if we can. Is/are there any ways any of us can help?

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:41:02 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Charles S. Subject: more that could be done Message:

It sounds like Brian is being taken advantage of and needs help. Many of my contacts behind the scenes emailed me over the weekend and people are yakking about it and quite a few are willing to put their money where there mouth is including me as it really is not expensive to find an alternative solution - either buy our own server (machine) or find a more reliable host and at least have a mirror site. I think the oldtimers got so used to doing nothing and just letting Brian do all the work. For nothing. Brian name your figure. You need to be paid. Also is it probably too much work for one person? Money really isn't the problem. Enough people have told me they are willing to donate money. Should this stuff be being discussed off FV? Perhaps we can set up a password protected e-group for this discussion.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:29:41 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Pat Conlon Subject: I agree with most of this Message:

I particularly agree with the 'let's talk about it elsewhere' part. Forum 5 is too easily diverted from its true purpose when these sorts of discussions take place here. But it should be an open discussion, rather than a password-protected one, and only retreat to private email if/when any specifics are being worked out. Not everyone out there likes this site :) But I'm opposed to the person doing this job getting paid for it, basically because it sets up a 'you work for me' mentality in the minds of too many people. I've had a very long weekend capped by a long drive home wondering if the site ever came up, and am pretty tired tonight. Let me sleep on it some, and I'll see if I can figure out how to best configure the demo forum software that runs on tigerriver for this purpose. I'll get back to you on it here tomorrow. Meanwhile, feel free to email me about it.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 06:09:43 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Brian Subject: Hope you had a nice weekend Message:

Did you two have fun? Isn't it nice to know you were missed?

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:37:54 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Brian Subject: I will email you, Brian Message:

i know you don't expect a thanks for your ''service'' but it is about time that we did reward you some way.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:13:13 (GMT) From: Babs Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com To: Forum Admin Subject: FV Addiction Message:

I hadn't realized I was addicted until I went through FV withdrawal. Got all paranoid about EV-il conspiracies... Just couldn't believe it was a co-incidence that the Forum was down during a pre-planned and publicized event. Still waiting to hear all about Latvian Night from the Londoners, but wish the rest of us could have been virtual participants. So, Brian dude, can you please explain ?

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:01:53 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Babs Subject: Half an explanation Message:

Hi Babs, and everyone else, My brother-in-law (my sister's ex-husband and father of my nephew) suffered a massive stroke last Thursday night and we had to get up to the DC area fast so that we were able to say goodbye and to be with my nephew when they turned off the life support very early on Saturday morning (which was, incidentally, my nephew's 16th birthday). Ordinarily, Brian would keep more of an eye on things, or make other arrangements, but this was an real emergency. I hope all of you can understand - Latvian night IS a big deal, but this was more important. Take care, Katie

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 19:30:06 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Katie Subject: Half an explanation Message:

Dear Katie.....sorry to hear about your tragic family bereavment. Many sympathies.....hope you are all ok and coping as best you can. yep ....sure does put the forum in its rightful perspective. Regards to your nephew too.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:00:12 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Thank you Dermot Message:

I really appreciate it. My sister and my nephew are doing all right - we went with them to the hospital when they turned his dad's life support off, and stayed with Them until the monitors flat-lined. It was tough, but not horrible. I am glad that my nephew got to be there for his dad, and I think he is too. (It is hard that he is so young, though - but he is very brave. And he has cried a lot, too - which is good.) BTW, regarding your post below, almost all the people who started, have contributed to, or run the ex-premie.org site were the biggest 'nobodies' in DLM/EV that you could think of. I think that's kind of cool, really. Take care, and thanks - Katie

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 20:15:39 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie, Brian Message:

I heard by email what had happened and of course that was a real emergency but us addicts got terrible withdrawal symptoms. I've still got the shakes this morning. Just kidding. I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:05:14 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Thanks, Pat Message:

Thanks, Pat. My nephew's name is Patrick, too - if you could keep him in your prayers, that would be great. It is hard to lose your dad when you are a teenager (I know a lot of other people on this forum have been through similar losses and can relate.) Also, if you or Charles could e-mail Brian at brian@ex-premie.org, and give him your phone number, that would be much appreciated.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 21:22:08 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Katie Subject: Thanks, Pat Message:

Of course, I will keep patrick in mt prayers. As soon as I read your story, I did having lost ny dad when I was a teen too. I will email Brain now. PS Don't you think FV is becoming a kinder, gentler place? Even Jim?

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 21:42:18 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Everyone Subject: next time F5 goes down,I made us a chat room Message:

at talkcity. we can also go over there when we realize two or more of us are posting here at the same time, if we want a realtime gathering. the entry screen is at http://www.talkcity.com/chat/ or just start at this screen once there, look for the text input window that says 'already know what room you want?' type in EPOF5 and go. if you have an IRC like mIRC or pIRCh, use it for 'advanced chat'. the next screen will probably ask you what name you want to appear as in the chat room. use the same name you use here. if you choose EZtalk-lite, i think you get assigned a one time visitor number for that appearance. no fun, if you want to be recognized for who you are here. EZ talk may let you in on your chosen name, too. m not sure. the room name is EPOF5 the topic says 'for ex-followers of prem pal singh rawat' i figured that would baffle the ordinary wanderers who come traipsing thru TC sometimes, scrollin thru all the rooms with no purpose. there is also a marquee of all rooms in tc listed, with their topic, for the public to look thru.i figured only select folk are going to know who the hell prem pal singh rawat is, and why anyone once followed him and now would not. so if you can't find the room any other way, you can try going to http://www.talkcity.com (talkcity's home page) , look for the list of 'chats or rooms open now', look alllll the way down to the wee low numbers and see if EPOF5 has anyone in it, and click on it to get in. it will show up if only one person is in there waiting. on my WebTV, i can hang out there alone and watch tv and wait for you guys to show up. in tc i am known as Jai_Choix [jay shwa], like on my email. jai, y'all

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 21:21:57 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Everyone Subject: so wha did you all think of my fantasy in email? Message:

the one the EV monitors will never be able to read about?? think we could actually pull it off with enough conviction?

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 10:55:06 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Everyone Subject: no PAM no hi.. Message:

( First…I'd like to qualify all of the following grumpy post with an obvious welcome to the PAMs whose contribution and courage is of inestimable value to those of us who wish to know what really went off behind the throne in the court of m. Also, a little hello and thank you to Moldy Warp for her welcoming email message. Plus, I got up on the wrong side of the bed after a weird dream about some dear ole premie pals haha.) Not having been one to bootlick and fawn over celeb prems when in the Mission/Ev it's funny to see the clamour to gather around their feet here. Now that's ok ….fine….as long as it is to hear the truth about our common past . I hope, though, it's not an extension or reverse image of what went on in that strange organisation we all have loved and known so well ( Not) But seriously……it's brilliant that PAMs are coming here to enlighten us with their juicy tales and personal insights . I, for one, lap it up. I hope, though, that the little men and women of the rank and file are also as equally listened to and respected …….decades of cult life experience inevitably contains nuggets of fascinating revelation. In my case since 1973. I've submitted to white pages and one day ( the gods only know when) I hope to submit my journey entry. The hello and welcome aboard offered to the PAMS would have been much appreciated but hey….who said the world owes me a living ( dammit…..I learned ages ago that it doesn't aha) Admittedly, I first entered here replying to a post from Pat Conlon but in the post I did mention that I'd arrived on the scene and said hello to everyone. I know at least two people read the post and one, moldy warp, sent a welcoming email. While I'm at it I'd like to point that I wont be a regular daily reader/ poster and if anyone emails me then if my response is slow It's because of lack of time and an infuriating computer ( which deserves to be picked up and slung out the nearest window…..it freezes all the time these days……time to get another…….just sending an email or two and submitting a post can takes AGES) …..also I'll be communicating in English ( continuing my futile attempt to stem the spread of the American lingo….ha not really ….I just write naturally in my mother tongue) Hey …this is good therapy ! I've got a good morning grumble out of my system and I'm ready to face an enjoyable week-end. Best Regards Dermot Mullan Defender of Anons, rank & filers , the great unwashed masses

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Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 13:25:22 (GMT) From: Bryn Email: bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com To: Dermot Subject: Vital point. Iagree.Lets hear it for rank and file Message:

Must hear as many pams as poss though too. love Bryn

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:13:39 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Dermot Subject: no PAM no hi.. Message:

Dear Dermot, Sorry you were overlooked for the most part the first time you posted. If I had read the post I would have said hi. Hi. :) I don't read here so much anymore but I have always noticed new people being welcomed, sorry you missed out on that but it appears people are rallying around now. :) Welcome. Love, Robyn

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:22:44 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Robyn Subject: no PAM no hi.. Message:

Lil ole sensitive me huh? Bit embarrassed by drawing attention to myself now but your welcome message is much appreciated....and eveyone else who welcomed me. Think tho' I'll make this the last post in this thread .... Cheers all...

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 15:25:21 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Dermot Subject: oh don't feel bad Dermot Message:

when my Sopranos post did not get any comments for at least two nanoseconds after I posted it ( and then the forum went down ) I whined to my friends offline to post that they liked it even if they thought it sucked! In all seriousness, I think you are right to post the way we did. The last thing we want to do is recreate the ugly cult hierarchy here. Of course we are all interested in what the people who saw the man behind the curtain have to say, but their voices are no more important than any ex's. I am glad you pointed it out.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:10:02 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Susan Subject: There's absolutely nothing to worry about Message:

I can't see any possible way that any former PAM, whether Mike or Mike or even Mike, could ever enjoy unhealthily heightened status here. Hey, guys, we were all following the greatest incarnation of God when that happened! Now we're just a bunch of people talking about it. Big diff. Oh, by the way, Mike, your shirts are ready.

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:06:44 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Greetings from the rank unwashed feet (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:15:05 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: uufffgh...thanks'such' ..and everyone ! nt Message:

zzz

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 20:57:41 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Dermot Subject: welcome Dermot!!!! Message:

And very sincerely. One thing too is I wasn't sure you were not an old poster who was coming out with your own name.....but still, no excuses/....welcome to you!

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 21:27:59 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Susan Subject: thanks!! but my post was Message:

a bit stupid , on reflection. It's not as if I'm joining another movement or something ( I hope not anyway haha ) .... and obviously it's only human to relish the PAM contributions and learn from them too. Me and my big mouth ....I could have just sidled in slumped in the corner and chipped in a few comments where appropriate...instead I had to make a dramatic statement....ha . Ah well , what's done is done .....and thanks for ya welcome!! ....yep I made 3 or 4 posts a few weeks ago under an alias but I've been reading the forum ( on and off ) for a few years now.

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 21:06:56 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Dermot Subject: welcome Dermot!!!! Message:

Make no mistake about it. Many, many, many people read everything posted here. Your comments are welcome and as important as the rest. That said, it's only natural that someone with so very much access to M over the years would have a lot of facts, observations and details to contribute. This helps put 'flesh on the bones' of what it was all about. Everyone's perspective is valuable but these eyewitness reports tend to fill in the blanks. Postie - having FV withdrawel but feeling better now

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 22:47:30 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com To: Postie Subject: welcome Dermot!!!! Message:

I've read all your posts and I love the sound of your voice. I just hope you will post more than you say you will. Pat, tolerator of anonymice but lover of those who aren't.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 23:33:54 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: FV withdrawel referred to the FV crash n/t Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:39:36 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: None To: deromot and all Subject: welcome Dermot!!!! Message:

i really liked your point about the subtle hiarchy that can happen if we are not paying attention. surely some of the same traits that got me into m and the cult in the first place still exist within me. it is exactly those traits within myself that i want to see and learn about so the as i live and grow i can make real choices about where to put my energy and time. i was off line this weekend emailng with someone here about this topic becasue part of what i saw over the month of reading before posting was a notice of this subtle thing about PAMs having something somehow spe4cial to say. the comment back was that perhaps we have something unique to say because of what we saw, but our experiences inside the cult were basically the same. thanks for the observation.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:30:09 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Experiences inside the cult Message:

Michael, I agree with you that the cult programming was basically the same, no matter where you were in proxmity to Maharaji. I guess by that I mean the internal experiences of repressing doubts, fear, and all the psychological rationalizations that still go in with people who are premies. Basically, if you lose the fear, or those mechanisms lose their strength, you leave. It's really impossible to remain a premie and not have filters and screens to protect the belief system from what is obvious reality to a non-cult member. But I also think that PAMs in some ways had it a lot worse because they felt they were in a privileged position that they didn't want to lose (which made it harder to question things), and because it appears that Maharaji could be pretty heartless and nasty to people, and if you believed he was God, that's gotta hurt. But on the other hand, some PAMs (and I don't know if that includes you) actually got some benefit in their lives by the things they did with Maharaji. Clearly Michael Dettmers did. But compare that to premies who lived in the ashrams for 10 years, foregoing careers, education and relationships, and then, Maharaji just dumped them out of the ashrams in 1983, and even stuck them with the debts. This, after indoctrinating in us that the ashram was a life-long committment. I guess the committment only went one way. Many of those people ended up dedicating their 20s to Maharaji, working at dead-end jobs that one couldn't be fired from for going to festivals, or bagging nuts at Rainbow, or workind at DECA, only to be a decade older and having to start all over.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:13:32 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net To: michael donner Subject: PAMs eye view Message:

Hi Michael Have to disagree slightly with your point that PAMs experiences within the cult were/are different from the rank-and-file premie. Maybe the experience of K, such as it was, was the same, but I contend that those close to the goomer, ie honchos, have a unique perspective and can tell tales the rest of us had no idea about. For me the whole point is not simply to slag off rawat for the sake of it, enjoyable though that is, but to bring to light the duplicity and hypocrisy of the man. Mike Dettmers has contributed much to debunk the myth of this so-called 'spiritual man' with his anecdotes about drinking, pot-smoking and womanizing, and the rest. PAMs do enjoy priveleges and conveniences denied other premies, and this I believe goes a long way toward ensuring their continued loyalty. I was never a 'PAM', but as a regular member of the Productions team I had my perks. For instance, I never, ever, had to queue to get into a program. I always had an assigned seat and most often a backstage pass. Small things in the great scheme of things perhaps, but I coveted them with a jealousy I now find embarrassing to admit to. Everyone wants to feel special, to feel close to the nucleus of things. I see that in my everyday work as a videographer. I encounter famous people, extremely wealthy people, pop stars etc and always, always, lurking around them are the nobodies basking in reflected glory, exhibiting the same fawning subservience I used to see with PAMs. I guess it is a part of human nature. So any little tidbits, memories, anecdotes etc you can recall would be very welcome and informative, even if you don't consider them so yourself. cheers Barry Shaw aka bazza

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 00:40:46 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Bazza Subject: The reflected glory of celebrity Message:

Bazza, I know what you mean about this whole fascination with celebrity. Something happened yesterday that was an absurd example of that. The last few days, I was traveling around Northern California, to the Sierra, to a new-age hot springs, and to the 'Delta' which is an area close to where I live, but I've never really been to. Fascinating trip, by the way. There are big herds of Tule Elk roaming around out there, and lots of wildlife. Anyhow, yesterday morning we had breakfast in a restaurant in a town called 'Rio Vista'. Beautiful place, but definitely off the beaten path. For those of you who remember, this town is about 60 miles up the Sacramento River, and it's the place that 'Humphrey' (a Humpback Whale) went to in 1985 and stayed there for about a week, after swiming from the ocean up the Sacramento River. The place became a huge tourist attraction and then fell back into back-water-land. Remember that? Anyhow, in this restaurant, John Travolta had lunch on July 14, 1997. They have a SHRINE to this evet in the entrance to the restaurant, including pictures, the food he ate, and they even have the CHAIR he sat in at the shrine with the sign that says 'John Travolta sat in this chair in July 14, 1997.' Anyhow, we were laughing so hard we had to leave the restaurant to avoid offending the people. But it was an example of celebrity taken to the absurd. By the way, if anybody is in the area, 'The Point' restaurant in Rio Vista has really good food, and a great view of the Sacramento River.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:07:03 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Joe Subject: Hey I ran into a celeb today Message:

Funny you should mention that but today I was in my local Health Food store (Ft Lauderdale) and in walks Jimmy Page! I kid you not. He came to order some herbs (which the assistant later told me are for virility). Naturally the store owner was all gaga and I must admit, being an ardent Zep fan myself, I stared at him with a stupid grin on my face. My wife knows his girlfriend quite well and the pair of them often go into her store to buy trinkets. I remember years ago, as an innocent naiive young premie (!) being amazed at stories of maharaji going into stores and people NOT recognizing him as God incarnate. We used to share our smug little smiles then too, knowing that He only revealed Himself to the fortunate few and those poor store assistants were simply not blessed enough to recognize him. Sadder still is the fact that to this day, the majority of the Cult Lifers retain those beliefs, and struggle with the conflict between them and their growing uneasiness as the Truth begins to emerge on this site and in furtive conversations with their friends. To me there is still only one God, and Clapton is his name!!

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 01:13:37 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Hey I ran into a celeb today Message:

Last time I went to L.A.––work-related–– I went to look around Barney's department store on my afternoon off. I went to the cafe for lunch, and Gwyneth Paltrow was at the next table. I asked the waiter if it was really her (she looked so ordinary) and he said, oh yes, today is a sale day, and we've had Sharon Stone and Jack Nicholson, and they're still in the store somewhere. My whole physiology changed, even as I told myself to be cool, babe, they're just people. But I found myself walking through the store on my way out in a state of hyper-thrilledness, scanning at the edges of my peripheral vision for a sighting. Haven't really felt that way since darshan days. Oh well.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:59:16 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Demystifying darshan Message:

Nice anecdote. The three-ringed Rawat Brothers Cirucus came to town with lots of celebrity fanfare. Darshan was always staged theatrically. Auto-suggestion and mass-hysteria. Charisma my ass. Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:09:40 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Darshan scene in Tommy Message:

Pat's comment on darshan being theatrical reminded me of the 'darshan' sequence in the rock musical Tommy. The 'devotees' walk up to a huge statue of Marilyn Monroe. When they bent down to do 'pranam', there was a mirror so they were looking up MM's skirt. Totally hilarious. Of course, they swooned and were delirious. The story I got from some UK Brits was the art director for Tommy got 'inspiration' from attending early days Maharaji festivals.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:34:51 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Postie Subject: Ken Russell's, The Who's ''Tommy'' Message:

Ken Russell's art director had been a premie in the early days. All the Tommy-mania cult scenes were story-boarded and staged by him. He also worked on most of Russell's movies and did the Hitler scene in ''Lisztomania.'' I don't remember his name.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 10:06:58 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Could Mike Donner have been the subject of Message:

the 'fuck you' video m made at his instructors' conference in Penang? Mike said'i certainly had no further illusions after i heard that m referred to my letter during an instructor conference in the following months in very belittling terms. nor was i surprised that he belittled it publicly with those particular folks as he needed to maintain control..and to trash me to them was significant as i was fairly well liked by most of the instructors at that time and not just another idiot...though that is how m protrayed me in reference to my letter.'

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 10:36:06 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Jethro Subject: what was the 'fuck you' video? what name or title Message:

is it known under? is it possible for premies to borrow and watch it? or was it one of those special ones only instructors were shown??

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 10:40:37 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: janet Subject: LOL Janet, the FU video was made Message:

in the late 80s, m had an intructors' conference-training session in Penang. According to one of the people there, m made all the imtructors group together and videod them saying 'fuck you'. Apparently this was to be sent to someone that disagreed with m, I never knew who the person was. It sounds like it may have been Mike Donner.

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:45:24 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: None To: Jethro Subject: LOL Janet, the FU video was made Message:

never heard of the video and never received one or such a one. my reference was from a friend, then still an instructor, who relayed the story to me...discouraging and one more peice of seeing m's disrepect of others for him. this was probabaly in the U>S. in early(ish) 1988. one of m's rather common over the years traits was his disrepect for others, rude comments, angry replies to questions that shut us up, talking behind the backs of those he would criticize, etc.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 02:05:21 (GMT) From: janet of venice Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 'you must be in california, if...'(OT) Message:

1. Your co-worker has 8 body piercings and none are visible. 2. You make over $300,000 and still can't afford a house. 3. You take a bus and are shocked at two people carrying on a conversation in English. 4. Your child's 3rd-grade teacher has purple hair, a nose ring, and is named Breeze. 5. You can't remember...is pot illegal? 6. You've been to a baby shower that has two mothers and a sperm donor. 7. You have a very strong opinion about where your coffee beans are grown and can taste the difference between Sumatran and Ethiopian. 8. You know which restaurant serves the freshest arugula. 9. You can't remember.....is pot illegal? 10. A really great parking space can totally move you to tears. 11. A low speed police pursuit will interrupt ANY TV broadcast. 12. Gas costs $1.00 per gallon more than anywhere else in the U.S. 13. A man gets on the bus in full leather regalia and crotchless chaps and you don't even notice. 14. Unlike back home, the guy at 8:30am at Starbucks wearing the baseball cap and sunglasses who looks like George Clooney IS George Clooney. 15. Your car insurance costs as much as your house payment. 16. Your hairdresser is straight, your plumber is gay, the woman who delivers your mail is into S & M, and your Mary Kay rep is a guy in drag. 17. You can't remember...is pot illegal? 18. It's barely sprinkling rain and there's a report on every news station about 'STORM WATCH 2001.' 19. You have to leave the big company meeting early because Billy Blanks himself is teaching the 4:00pm Tae Bo class. 20. You pass an elementary school playground and the children are all busy with their cell phones or pagers. 21. It's barely sprinkling rain outside, so you leave for work an hour early to avoid all the weather-related accidents. *22. Your best friend is in the credits for Star Trek 23. you can tell the difference between the smell of crack burning and meth being manufactured, and you don't use either one. 24. you don't wear blue or red for fear of getting shot in a drive-by. 25. your local police patrol officer on the beat wears spandex and rides a mountain bike when on shift 26.a red- tagged building represents an opportunity for rent- free housing 27. you'd rather hose down or blow your driveway clean instead of use a broom 28. you shiver and turn on the heat if the overnight temperature is 50° 29. you sit next to a schizophrenic who's holding an animated conversation with someone you can't see, and it takes you a while to realize they don't have a cell phone. 30. you arent the least bit impressed by free tickets to watch a tv show being filmed 31. the SWAT team turns out in force and marches in phalanxes down the street to make everyone go home after an outdoor public street event. 32. you get annoyed and impatient at all the out-of-towners with camcorders blocking your path, recording the SWAT team marching in formation 33. when your house starts vibrating, you wait to see if its an earthquake, the Police chopper hovering over your house, or a boombox car cruising down your street, before deciding whether to stop what you're doing and move into a doorway . 34. if it turns out to be an earthquake tremor, everyone in the room calls out their estimate of its richter scale measurement, and nothing below a 5.5 rates more than a pause in one's activities. 35. every news broadcast is guaranteed to report at least one shooting, one car crash, one description of a man wanted by the police,one story of a minor in dire peril, and one fluffy, glowing tidbit concerning some celebrity in court that day 36. you have to make a detour on the way to the store because a movie crew is shooting smack in the middle of your usual way there. 37. the homeless person in your immediate neighborhood has their own cell phone, agent, website, email, resumé and portfolio. 38. you've been an extra in at least one production 39. the dramas in your friends' daily lives strike you as material begging for its own tv series--but they're completely serious and don't see it 40.you recognize your neighborhood in scenes on the evening news. 41. Both you AND your dog have therapists. --------------------------------- *1 to 22 were sent to me. 24 thru 40 are from my own personal experience.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:32:24 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: janet of venice Subject: Well, you know I think it's good because I told Message:

you so when you emailed it to me. I actually think your items 24-40 are better than the others.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:34:06 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: i couldnt make this stuff up! its all true! Message:

auuuuggghhh!

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:40:29 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: janet Subject: It's not THAT bad Message:

I lived there for a while and what got me was that it was like always being with showbiz people. Every one's ACTING all the time. So concerned about fashion etc. Phony and tedious. I loved what the Absolutely Fabulous lady said about it when asked if she would live there. ''No,'' she answered; ''why would I want to live in a place where everybody's in recovery from drugs or in alcoholics anonymous and won't smoke and are totally obsessed with health and living forever but are so stupid that they live on an earthquake fault?'' Jennifer Saunders aka Edina.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 07:10:15 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Sweetie Dahlings Message:

Well, Pat darling, isn't that why we live in NORTHERN California, now, darling?

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 09:01:13 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Sweetie Dahling Disculta - LA v SF Message:

Well, dahling, SF is fast feeling (if not looking) like LaLaLand without the smog but with the fog. I'm actually a bit of an LA fan although I would be killed if I said that in public. If the air weren't so bad and the car and showbiz weren't so dominating...but nowhere's perfect. I've been here 22 years - longer than any other part of the world. I'm practically a native San Franciscan. Well, compared with my dotcommy customers, I am. But the dotcommies are leaving to go and work in New Hampshire and North Carolina as their jobs dry up. Maybe the greenpeace kids, ravers, slackers, seekers, artists, hippies and other bohemians, who made this town so easygoing and livable, will once again be able to afford living here. No, those days are over. But even the new arrivals, who have gentrified the ghettoes and slums, will one day succomb to the fog rolling in from the ocean and swirling around the streetlights on magical mystic nights when the foghorns on The Bridge boom in the darkness. I love this city. I wish you absolute fabulosity.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 09:40:16 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: thats right-rub my face in it, salt my wound! Message:

actually i love our foggy nights, here in venice, when the streetlights look like rows of upholstered buttons against the soft glow, when the foghorn off the pier is bugling its long, lonely cautions out to sea, thru the wee, deep hours, and the city is silent. the surf is the only other sound one can hear at that hour. it's like listening to the great ocean, breathing to itself, after another long day of enduring its children, and finally knowing theyre all asleep, once again, and it can relax alone. tonight, its clear. all is calm. the windchimes that jangled and clanged all day in the bright,buffeting, spring winds, are now still. the windows have stopped rattling in their casements. the occasional plane, taking off in the dead of night from LAX, leaves a sonic trail behind it, rolling around like a loose bowling ball, under the sky, until it fades away to the horizon. even the faraway hiss of the freeway is absent for a long interval. the kitten stirs in her sleep, and her tiny bell tinkles in the dark. the refrigerator hums in a range almost supersonic. more noticeable for when it stops. just for the moment, there is peace to be appreciated. just now, there are no choppers, splitting the night with their follow-spots from the sky. no car alarms, robotically going thru their mockingbird repetoires. for that matter, no mockingbirds, going thru their car alarm repetoires, either! no boomcars, boogeying selfishly down the block. no dogs barking. no cats screaming at one another in the shadows. no whistles of drug dealers signaling their hiding spots. just silence. stillness. and moonlight on the tractor in the high grass, soft after the rains.

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 23:26:23 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: janet Subject: You said it - there's even some beauty in LaLaLand Message:

Nowhere is perfect. The summers in SF are colder than winter in Minnesota.

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 21:16:01 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: janet Subject: And the Jack Kerouac Award goes to ... janet (nt) Message:

bowling ball sonic trails

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 03:56:54 (GMT) From: Aussi ji Email: None To: janet of venice Subject: Hey,that is bloody good! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:28:33 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Aussi ji Subject: no, that's bloody bad. stay far away!!!!lol Message:

save yourself

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:32:27 (GMT) From: Aussi Ji Email: None To: janet Subject: Is Not !(i'm poking my tongue out at you) LOL!! Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 03:51:20 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: janet of venice Subject: Not bad, not bad at all (nt) Message:

ffffff

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:30:48 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Jim Subject: u lived here--am i right or not?..lol,gtg Message:

get me outta heeeere

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 02:42:01 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: janet of venice Subject: 'The answer is 42. You know that Message:

WHATS The question? I no u no You're bloody brilliant

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 03:04:14 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Kelly Subject: The answer is 42. Question: What's the meaning of Message:

the universe. Pat, posting from the restaurant at the end of the universe.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:32:58 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: do you have 3 tons of rotten vegetables in yr fr? Message:

could you seat 50?

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 04:35:00 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: janet Subject: do you have 3 tons of rotten vegetables in yr fr? Message:

No and no. One sprig of moldy parsley and 42 (I'm serious) are the answers.

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