Brian -:- Q for Michael Dettmers re Rawat as Bus. partner -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:01:17 (GMT)

__ Michael Dettmers -:- Q for Michael Dettmers re Rawat as Bus. partner -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:23:39 (GMT)

__ Roger eDrek -:- Wow, that would be really scary! -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:44:34 (GMT)

Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- Oh Bugger! I gave you all a bum steer. -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:51:00 (GMT)

__ moldy warp -:- Tony (Aussi Ji) tried to Email you again! -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:38:11 (GMT)

__ __ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- Keep trying Moldy,I just got an email -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 05:35:03 (GMT)

Jim Sander (posted by FA) -:- Open letters to EV/Chapel Hill/Durham NC community -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:31:31 (GMT)

__ Jim Sander (posted by FA) -:- Open letter to Chapel Hill/Durham NC community -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:35:05 (GMT)

__ __ Jim Sander (posted by FA) -:- First Letter to Elan Vital -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:45:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim Sander (posted by FA) -:- Elan Vital's Reply -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:49:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Excellent -- agree should be permanent on site -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:18:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Brilliant, Jim! EV evasions = tacit admission? nt -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:46:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- Elan Vital's Reply -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 11:32:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mark -:- Elan Vital's Reply -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:24:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Great work Jim (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:30:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Dear Kathie Thomas -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:49:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- This reads like a letter from my Congressman -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:41:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim Sander (posted by FA) -:- Second Letter to Elan Vital -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:56:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Respect Jim. -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 11:26:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Excellent JS! - I'm curious, when you ran into.. -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 04:51:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Thanks Jim Sander, great letters, wonderful work. -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:49:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ scottc. -:- Second Letter to Elan Vital -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:50:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I second that scott - thank you Jim Sander -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 05:32:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- Letters to Chapel Hill Community and EV -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:33:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- Thank you, Jim, powerful, honest letters -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:06:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- This is some of the best info that has ever been -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:08:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Second Letter to Elan Vital -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:25:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- EV's lack of denial of 'allegations' -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:52:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Alan Fenstermacher -:- EV's lack of denial of 'allegations' -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:28:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- I agree, Alan -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:45:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Form letter - 1000s got the same one NT -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:56:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Duping the duped -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:57:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Did you get one, Pat? (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:01:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon - I wish you -:- No, I did not have the patience to write to them -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:19:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- If I write to EV will they... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 11:37:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Oh Anth, you always catch my syntax errors -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 18:41:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ aoaji -:- Oh Anth, you always catch my syntax errors -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 19:06:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Nice song - My sad guru looks like 'Divine' -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:35:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Oh Anth, you always catch my syntax errors -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 19:50:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Oh Anth, you always catch my syntax errors -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 04:58:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Thanks -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:24:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Oops. sorry Katie the ''I wish you...' -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 05:24:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Absolutely wonderful work, Jim! -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:08:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Thank you, Jim, and *** Best Of *** -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:00:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Good call, FA -- I third the motion n/t -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 06:50:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- Good call, FA ! First page stuff !(nt) -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:35:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Thank you, Jim, and *** Best Of *** -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:14:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Definitely 'best of', IMHO, and -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:49:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- and so say all of us!(us silent majority types) nt -:- Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 18:15:23 (GMT)

Sandy -:- Conscientious Objection -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 15:55:57 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- Sandy you are trying to have it both ways again -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:02:48 (GMT)

__ __ Sandy -:- Any day above ground is a good day -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:45:03 (GMT)

__ Patrick W -:- A man after my own heart.... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:52:06 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- Conscientious Objection -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:57:53 (GMT)

__ __ Sandy -:- Conscientious Objection -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:33:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- Conscientious Objection -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:36:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, like Patrick W. I agree with all you say -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:59:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- This is not Jim Heller, it couldn't be -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:11:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- You need to recognise the 5th technique.. -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:16:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- I got It, thanks for revealing the final technique -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:39:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- I got It, thanks for revealing the final technique -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:50:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- JHB Ji, am I doing it right -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:27:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- JHB Ji, am I doing it right -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:29:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- You're both doing it wrong -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:58:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ Gregg -:- no sharks here -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:49:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- no sharks here -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:23:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- global presence -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:17:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And how about this part, Patrick? Agree here too? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:03:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick -:- And how about this part, Patrick? Agree here too? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:34:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- OK. You want another question? Try this -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:43:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Sandy, Explain This! -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:36:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Don't dispair, JHB -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:00:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Generalizations hit nerves, Sandy. -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:55:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Sorry... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:13:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks, Sandy -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:17:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- He doesn't mean it -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:23:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- He doesn't mean it -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:27:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- One minute you dispair for me and the next one you -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:35:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- The two are the same... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:45:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Your eternal judgement of me is not the Law. -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:51:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Sandy, you are a waste of time -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:22:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And how about THIS part, Patrick W.? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:07:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Wilson -:- And how about THIS part, Patrick W.? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:52:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And how about THIS part, Patrick W.? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:58:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Donna Bailey Nurse -:- 'I really can't stand it when people sneer.' -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:15:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- And how about THIS part and THIS part and THIS par -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:06:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh, it's 'Once Upon a Time' time, huh? -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:49:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- I refer you to Donna Bailey Nurse's post above, -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:04:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- John of the Cross wrote Dark Night of the Soul -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:15:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, no, no Pat -- it was about Schizophrenia -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:22:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- What's the bet Jim and Sandy both like rock n roll -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 09:26:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Ha ha ha -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:12:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- One other kind of person is here -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:55:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- ANOTHER curse, Sandy? -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:21:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Nothing so magical as a curse -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:56:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- This is why you -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 13:29:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, that's not fair -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 20:44:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Hey, what's not fair -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:39:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, dude, that doesn't fly -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:59:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Not in your heavy gravity world it doesn't -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 15:15:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sandy, I'll ask you again: what about the others? -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:09:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Jim, I will ask you again: What about the others? -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:54:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- So you won't answer, huh? -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 23:59:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Why me? -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:32:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- I knew it !!! Tony Blair is a KBG agent !!! -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:44:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Read it and weep for real -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:13:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- son of a bitch!!! not you, gErRy... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:32:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- You're lost in space mate or maybe just ..... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:03:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Check out www.boydgraves.com (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:06:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- I 've checked it out and it's shite ..... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:28:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- son of a bitch!!! not you, gErRy... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:08:07 (GMT)

__ sean -:- Conscientious Objection -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:30:09 (GMT)

__ Sandy -:- PS -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:25:10 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Sandy, I know you don't like me an won't read this -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:03:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ sean -:- I'm glad you said that, Pat -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 21:03:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- You can't think straight when you're buying into -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:52:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sean -:- You can't think straight when you're buying into -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 01:01:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- But... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 21:35:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ sean -:- But... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:06:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- But... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:12:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ sean -:- Scientology -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:28:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- I think he's stuck in the mud.... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:27:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Intellectually snobbery and Mensa -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:53:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Intellectually snobbery and Mensa -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 05:35:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sean -:- Intellectually snobbery and Mensa -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 03:08:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Intellectually snobbery and Mensa -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 15:20:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sean -:- Intellectually snobbery and Mensa -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 18:38:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Is 135 good enough for you? (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:45:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sean -:- Red 34, Red 34, 135 hut hut -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:52:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Yeah, dat's da ticket -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:55:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sean -:- Always left, thats my motto! (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 03:05:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sean -:- I think he's stuck in the mud.... -:- Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 01:24:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ sean -:- New Age blechs -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:19:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- You mean I did something good? -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 21:29:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ sean -:- Shocking aint it! -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:12:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- good post Pat,perfect description of the situation -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:22:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sandy -:- Pat, I don't dislike you and I did read this -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:16:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Helen -:- You still aren't sure????? -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:45:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Helen -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:00:16 (GMT)

Dermot -:- I'm Off ( for quite a while);)) -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 13:56:14 (GMT)

__ a0aji -:- Group hug! (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 18:45:04 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- Bon Voyage friend ( come back soon );)) nt -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:35:47 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- Good Luck ! I'll buy you a pint if ..... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:57:10 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- Bye, Dermot.... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:26:44 (GMT)

__ moldy warp -:- Dermot - slightly OT -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:46:06 (GMT)

__ Kelly -:- I'm Off ( for quite a while);)) -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:32:55 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- Who's book-maker? Odds? I bet 50 dollars -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:03:36 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- Are you sure? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:32:52 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- I'm Off ( for quite a while);)) -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:35:53 (GMT)

__ Mercedes -:- I'm Off ( for quite a while);)) -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:13:56 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- I'm Off ( for quite a while);)) -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:07:41 (GMT)

__ Katie H -:- Hey Dermot -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 15:48:51 (GMT)

__ cq -:- best of the best to you, here's one for the road- -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 15:16:02 (GMT)

__ salam -:- see you -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 15:04:28 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- I'm Off ( for quite a while);)) -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 14:04:15 (GMT)

bill -:- Janet's take on Catweasel -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 10:55:39 (GMT)

__ Roger eDrek -:- Janet, brava! I'm so glad that I found you -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:53:55 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Roger, I'm so glad that I found you -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:52:47 (GMT)

__ Marianne -:- Janet - simply brilliant -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 13:36:14 (GMT)

__ __ Forum Admin -:- To Catweasel -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:43:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ CW -:- To Catweasel -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:39:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- To Catweasel -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:20:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- er Cat..... -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:52:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bazza -:- Is it just me? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:17:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ salam -:- Is it just me? -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:10:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- And did you notice Cat's PR workover to be CW? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:59:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- takes less space in the archives......nt -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 17:41:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Yeah and now he's not even talking on AG -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:33:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I noticed that, too -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:39:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ CW -:- Is it just me? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:17:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- I shifted over to AG Cat -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:52:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H -:- Just one question, FA -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:51:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- One Answer -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:56:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks! -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:58:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- not hard to do at all nt -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:57:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- uh I was answering FA -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:01:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- uh I was answering FA -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:04:10 (GMT)

Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:01:17 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Q for Michael Dettmers re Rawat as Bus. partner Message:

I'm not sure if this has been asked and answered before, since I can't come close to keeping up with all threads. Michael talked before about how there was an effort to get premies to make Rawat a partner in their personal businesses, as a way of legally channeling funds to him and making him financially independant of donations. What happens to those premie businessmen who realise that Rawat is a fraud and want to sever connections with him? Maybe this is something covered in Business 101, but I'm pretty ignorant on it myself. What sort of problem does this present to people who turned over a portion of the legal ownership of their own sources of income? How was it structured to ensure that Rawat got 'his share' of any profits?

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:23:39 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Brian Subject: Q for Michael Dettmers re Rawat as Bus. partner Message:

Brian, I’m sure M’s participation in premie owned businesses has evolved and changed over the many years since I left the cult. If he followed the plan I, with the help of professional advisors, laid out for him, he would have parlayed a good portion of those original earnings into a diversified portfolio of investments. Quite often the real money to be made in a business is when it is sold or when it goes public. I believe M has benefited handsomly from both of these scenarios. The simple answer to your specific question is that, as long as M or a company or a trust in which he is a beneficial owner or has a beneficial interest, owns a shareholding in a privately or publicly owned company, he is legally entitled to his share of the profits, whether or not the founding premies who may have once loved him now hate him and want him out. It is not at all uncommon for partners in a business venture to have a falling out somewhere down the line. Sometimes the answer is to buy out the partner who is no longer valued and/or wanted, if the parties can come to mutually acceptable terms. Sometimes they can’t come to terms, in which case the company’s board must be very careful to strictly abide by its articles and bylaws with respect to its procedures for making decisions that affect the future direction of the company. These situations can get very acrimonious. However, M would never get directly involved in these matters, as his interests are represented by the people he appoints as director(s) and/or trustees. Michael

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:44:34 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Brian Subject: Wow, that would be really scary! Message:

It's kind of like that movie with Michael Keaton called Pacific Heights. Imagine you call for a vote by all the directors or shareholders to vote Maharaji out. Yet, somehow Maharaji has managed to acquire a majority of votes or shares and he votes you out of your own company. And now the Lord has made you what you always wanted to be - a beggar.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:51:00 (GMT) From: Tony(Aussi Ji) Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au To: Everyone Subject: Oh Bugger! I gave you all a bum steer. Message:

G'day all, Not being very computer literate and all,I have given everyone my incorrect email address.I typed the incorrect email address the first time and then kept using the little box that appears when you press the first letter each time.therefore each time I posted I was using my incorrect email address.Does that make sense.Anyway the problem is rectified. Cheers Tony.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:38:11 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Tony(Aussi Ji) Subject: Tony (Aussi Ji) tried to Email you again! Message:

at all the addresses you've posted. Still getting same messages as before about netzip demon and server not doing it's thing. Must be a lila! love Moldy

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 05:35:03 (GMT) From: Tony(Aussi Ji) Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au To: moldy warp Subject: Keep trying Moldy,I just got an email Message:

From Connie.Good luck Jim (from mission impossible) Cheers Tony.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:31:31 (GMT) From: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Open letters to EV/Chapel Hill/Durham NC community Message:

Jim has asked me to post the following exchange he has had with EV, and his open letter to his community. The first is an introduction from Jim. Forum Admin. --------------------------------------------------- Hello- My name is Jim Sander and I live in the Chapel Hill area of NC. I am sending these letters out today because my conscience compels me to. Four letters are included: The first two were sent out on Jan.1, 2001-one to the local community, and one to EV. The third letter is a reply from EV on Feb. 5, in response to my first letter. The fourth is my second letter to EV. They have not responded in any way to it, after numerous phone calls and e-mails. It is because of this evasiveness, that I send these out today. In my opinion, the word 'consciousness' has been used for a long time, while at times taking a back seat to the word 'conscience'. I think that 'conscience' should be included in the dialogue as well. Clearly, something is wrong here. Something is very wrong, and it needs to be addressed in an honest, ethical and timely manner. Both sides need to reflect, take a deep breath, and then begin some sort of process to sort out the truth. I believe if this does not happen soon, things will only get worse, and that is not something that I personally want to see. Clearly, maharaji and ev have many questions to answer. I suggest that the critics pose all their questions and criticisms in a civil manner, and that maharaji himself address them, face to face with representatives of the critics, and videotape the session. Visions should make it widely available, so that everyone can finally know the truth, and begin the process to set some of this discord behind them. I have been told by people from both sides that this is extremely unlikely, yet I believe that anything short of a full accounting will not work, and may actually make the situation far worse. This is obviously happening now. The time for honest and bold actions is here. Can we all do what is necessary, so that some sort of reconciliation and healing can possibly take place? Sincerely, Jim Sander Chapel Hill, NC

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:35:05 (GMT) From: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Open letter to Chapel Hill/Durham NC community Message:

Dear friends: I hope this holiday season finds you in good health and good spirits as well. I am writing this letter to you today, not because it is easy, but because I feel it necessary to do so. We all share a common involvement with maharaji and the organizations around him. I feel that because of this, it is important to know who and what we are representing. The purpose of this letter is to address some of the many allegations about maharaji that have been made recently. Most, but not all, have been made on the internet. These statements have the potential to be embarrassing and damaging to any of us. It is for this reason that I am writing to you. I will no longer be hosting the videos at my house as a result of what I have discovered. For years I have suspected that many things were withheld from us, and I am now quite sure of it. For myself, I cannot afford to have my name, reputation or standing in the larger community be potentially damaged by my personally sponsoring and encouraging these events in my home. While I am not telling anyone else in the community what to do in this regard, I do strongly recommend that all of us simply find out the truth and accept it. I originally was going to send this letter to only the people who have come to my house for videos. On second thought, I realized that most of you have been to my house at least once, so I have decided to send it to everyone in the community. You may already know some of these things in the letter to EV, or like me, be totally new to all of them. This may be disturbing to discover, but I feel that we have both a need and a right to know these facts, as they may directly or indirectly affect our daily lives. My personal opinion is that we should always know the truth about the things we are involved in, rather than live in denial. While not always comfortable or easy, I feel that it is ultimately the best way to live. Finally, please don’t shoot the messenger (me). I know most of you quite well, or to some degree at least, and generally have warm feelings about you and most of the dealings we have had over the years. A hug, or a hello would be fine when we run across each other publicly, rather than an icy stare (this winter’s cold enough already). If you want to communicate further, I am always available and genuinely appreciate everyone’s friendship. I urge all of you to reflect on these things deeply and deliberately, and follow the dictates of your own conscience. Sincerely, Jim Sander

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:45:03 (GMT) From: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Email: None To: Everyone Subject: First Letter to Elan Vital Message:

To whom it may concern at elan vital: I am writing to you in regard to some of the many allegations that have been made about maharaji’s work and personal life on the internet. As you know, most of the sites that contain questions or criticisms of maharaji were shut down by him and the ev attorneys for a few days, but were quickly online again. My questions to you revolve around allegations made there, and how these allegations affect us, the long time supporters of maharaji. I have been involved with maharaji’s work for over 28 years, in many ways both large and small, in different communities,ashrams,cities and countries since 1972. I started one community in 1974 that grew to over 15 people. Most of those people are still active today. Over a dozen people have received knowledge from my initial introduction of knowledge to them. I have led aspirant teams in a large city, been to almost every program and festival that has ever happened in the US, and contributed, through donations and work-efforts, hundreds of thousands of dollars to his work. I have worked for almost 20 years in 2 companies that were owned or operated by maharaji. Locally, I started the effort to find a hall and finance it through monthly donations from local premies. I state these things not to brag, but simply to tell you a bit about the length and extent of my involvement. I have become increasingly disturbed by these reports, especially since they come from people that I have known personally for decades and would categorize as honest and reliable sources. I have listened carefully to their stories and believe what they are relating is accurate and true; namely that there is a 'shadow' side to the maharaji/knowledge story that very few people know. This is not made public, and is in fact covered up. The more I hear, the more I believe that we all should know whether or not these stories are true. I have always believed that the moral and ethical dimension in one’s life should play an important and integral part in their spiritual life. I don’t think that one can progress on any path without a strong moral compass. In other words, one must 'walk the talk', especially a teacher, who is generally regarded as an example or model for students. If what I read is true, and I increasingly believe it is, maharaji’s life and behavior do not seem to reflect the life of peace, harmony, tranquility or fulfillment that he has always said would result from practicing knowledge and following him. I would like to know if the following things that are alleged about maharaji are true: 1-for years he has had a severe drinking problem and is addicted to cigarettes as well. In the words of one top aide, close to him for over 10 years, maharaji was either 'inebriated or out and out drunk' for an average of 5 days per week, for years and years. This was not a periodic episode, but something that has gone on for years. This has also been reported by other followers who lived in close proximity and served him for years. 2-he has had numerous affairs with female followers. One of the aides who procured women for him has spoken quite candidly about this. Many have been used and hurt, at least one has had an abortion(s). 3-he has had a full time mistress for about the last 15 years. Does this accurately reflect the videos we have been sent from visions that have portrayed him as a 'family man'? 4-he supplied drugs and alcohol (the X-materials, as he called them) for parties in the 1970’s and 1980’s. He would encourage and participate in their use. While publicly lecturing against these things, he actually received civic awards commending him on helping young people escape the dangers of the drug culture. Premies were carefully screened (X-rated, his term) before being allowed to participate, and were required to pledge to never talk about it to anyone. He pressured all less favored premies to surrender their lives to him in the ashram in an environment that strictly forbid these activities. 5-he has a watch collection that is worth millions of dollars. 6-he has dozens of expensive cars around the world, worth millions of dollars. 7-he has an 8 million dollar yacht on the east coast (this is in addition to the 20 million dollar mansion and 25 million dollar GV jet that most people know about). Is this for propagation? Do our donations finance this? If so, do premies know about it? 8-he states on his website that he has never presented himself as the 'perfect master' or a 'messianic figure' nor wanted to be worshipped as such, even though numerous written periodicals and photographs remain from the early years that flatly contradict this. These are available to view on the internet, and create a huge credibility gap between what he said then and what he says now. How do we deal with these obvious discrepancies that he has created? He recently blamed the 'concepts' about him on the mahatmas and original Indian devotees, but it was maharaji who gave the discourses that contained these concepts. Once again, one can see on the internet statements such as 'satguru forgives sins', 'just give me the reigns and let me rule (the world)', 'the highest manifestation of god is guru', 'guru is greater than god', 'guru maharaji comes, or god comes into this world..'etc. etc. He made these statements. He now claims on his website that he never made statements that reflect these beliefs. Shouldn’t he explain this? I can’t. Can you? 9-he has hidden anything about the mahatma jagdeo/sexual abuse incident.. In particular, did he know that jagdeo had sexually abused children, and did nothing to stop him? It is alleged that he knew about this in the US in the 1970’s, and as a result of his deliberate inaction, it happened again in England, with far more serious consequences to the children. These children are now grown adults and are speaking out about this. I have heard their stories. I believe they are telling the truth. This is particularly disturbing to me, as I have worked with abused children for 7 years as a special educator and counselor, and know full well the devastating effects that these actions have on children. They never fully recover, are scarred for life, and their predators generally don’t change. I have previously written you about this, informing you of the disturbing circumstantial evidence in the jagdeo situation that I personally knew of from involvement in the Unity School program in the summer of 1977 and 1978. I have talked with one person who did security around jagdeo in that period, and his account adds credibility to the story. Unfortunately, you have not responded in any way since I contacted you well over a month ago. This disappoints me greatly, and I wonder if your intent is to find the truth and have justice served, or is it to stall, cover up and protect maharaji? I remember many of these children. I have watched them grow up and I remain long time friends with some of their parents, who respected me as their child’s teacher, and entrusted their child with me and the other Unity school educators. There are numerous other incidents, such as the recent letter from fakiranannd concerning his assault on Pat Halley and who ordered it. Michael Dettmers reports about the 'hit and run' incident in India, the procurement of women for maharaji, and his unhappiness in general. These stories, if true, present a very different and unsavory picture of life around maharaji. I would like to know if any or all of these statements are true. I believe that maharaji and ev owe a response to the thousands of people all over the world who have sacrificed many aspects of their lives to contribute to his work. Don’t we have a right to know if our time, energy, love and money are being used to finance activities such as these? Do we have the moral right to bring new people into this, without telling them these things, that if true, they will likely find offensive, immoral and unacceptable behavior in someone who would be their master? If these allegations are true, do you see how you (the organizational people representing maharaji) are being used to 'set up' the very people (those of us with knowledge) that you want to be the base of support and contributions for the future? And we, in turn, are being used to 'set up' the new people? If supporters, such as myself, and other people in various communities around the country, go out into their communities and actively recruit people into this (propagation), and then find out from these new people we have brought in, that these allegations are true, how angry will we be? How angry and deceived will the new people feel? How embarrassing will this be for all of us? Won’t we all feel manipulated? What if someone’s community standing or employment suffers from this? I have heard Yorum Weiss and David Mankoff on phone feeds asking people with knowledge to donate stocks, tax free, to maharaji, as well as ask their corporate employers to donate 'matching funds' to elan vital, because it is a charitable entity. What would these corporate employers think about their employees request once they saw some of the things on these sites? What would they do? A few years ago I asked maharaji at his home in Malibu if there was anything I could do for him. He replied that I could show the new satellite feeds as they became available in peoples homes. I was excited about the opportunity, as I agreed with him that it was time for the message to go into people’s living rooms and out of the community halls, which in my opinion, were not always the best place to bring new people to. I eagerly returned home and within a few months was hosting video feeds, with at times up to 28 people in my home. People came to this warm, friendly environment and many of them personally told me that they and the people they brought would not go to the community hall or a hotel, but felt comfortable here. Over a dozen new people came to these satellite feeds. I have invited neighbors, friends and business associates to these events. I now feel that I have been used and manipulated. Would anyone who has heard these allegations want to ever become involved in any way with a teacher or group like this? One of the new people has seen the EPO site and asked me about it. What do you think he thinks about me? Could a teacher (although I don’t teach anymore, there are 3 in this community) be fired or sued if they told a student about maharaji, brought them to videos and encouraged them to receive knowledge? In my opinion, there is one obvious solution to all of this. Maharaji needs to address these allegations that are made about him. If they are untrue, we need to confront those who have made them, and have them explain them or retract them. If they are true, he needs to explain them, so that we don’t get hurt. An honest response, although painful and potentially embarrassing, would actually help him in the long run. I feel that most people believe that 'honesty is the best policy', and would respect his honesty far more than stories that distort, conceal or deny. Hasn’t the clinton/lewinsky scandal taught us all this much? We now stand at a crossroads. The path of honesty can help thousands of sincere people, while the path of dishonesty can turn those same thousands against you. Which path will you choose to take? Do you believe that we deserve to know the truth about the man we have served for so long? Do you understand the moral bind we are all in if we don’t know the truth? I ask you to be honest and forthright in your response. If you don’t know the answers to these questions, I request you to simply ask maharaji and then report the answers directly on your website and through the satellite transmissions. Sincerely, Jim Sander

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:49:32 (GMT) From: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Elan Vital's Reply Message:

5 February 2001 Dear Jim, I do apologize for replying so late to your letter. Elan Vital knows of the allegations made on the anti Maharaji websites. We understand your distress resulting from those allegations and how reading such things can be confusing. However, as an organization EV has to first consider the source and motive of the allegations and criticisms before it can decide whether it is appropriate to respond. Elan Vital also respects the right to freedom of speech as well as the right that all individuals have to come to their own conclusions. Maharaji has passionately and with commitment made his gift of Knowledge and inspiration available to people from all walks of life. He does this freely and asks people to judge it by their experience. Confusing allegations and stories about Maharaji have been around since the day he arrived in the West and even before that when he travelled in India. It will always be a person's option to weigh the stories and their relevance with their own personal first hand experience, and see what feels most right. The option to practice Knowledge or stop has always been and remains an individual decision. In Maharaji's lifelong effort to make his gift available, he has done so always displaying integrity and a quest to make it ever more understandable and obtainable. Helping make Maharaji's message known has been and will continue to be a great honor for Elan Vital. Thank you, Jim. Sincerely, Kathie Thomas, Director Elan Vital

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 20:18:54 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: Excellent -- agree should be permanent on site Message:

You cover very well what I think would occur to many premies about why all that stuff is important. Kathie Thomas: how can she possibly live with herself and write crap like that. I'm not surprised; she is reportedly the person who wrote the Elan Vital FAQs which is cognitive dissonance taken to astronomical levels. Excellent work. Thanks much.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:46:56 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: Brilliant, Jim! EV evasions = tacit admission? nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 11:32:33 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: Elan Vital's Reply Message:

my rebuttal to Kathie Thomas: >'Elan Vital knows of the allegations...' excuse me Katie, but these are not allegations. These are firsthand eyewitness reports, from individuals who were hand picked by Maharaji himself, who walked beside him, drove with him, spent long hours with him in private, working with him on his projects, listening to his wishes, satisfactorily executing his orders and answering to him personally. These are individuals whom he entrusted with his most precious possession: his net worth: and who never betrayed that trust, not from the day they assumed his confidence until the day they resigned. These are individuals who came to him without preconceptions, who listened to Satsang, who met the conditions necessary to be bestowed the Knowledge, who met the conditions necessary to enter the Ashram, who practiced every aspect of it that he recommended, faithfully, through years of service and participation. There is nothing to allege, when one was directly involved. It is tantamount to interrogating someone as to whether they exist, and when they reply 'yes, i do', you retort 'so you allege'. These are not 'allegations', Kathie. They are the truth, plain, simple, factual and personal accounts. '... made on the anti Maharaji websites.' excuse me again. The original website, the first one, was not, as you mistakenly characterize it, anti maharaji. I believe the original site was the newsgroup alt.cult.maharaji, which, although I am sure you cannot help reacting to the presence of the visible 'cult' in the title, does not refer to maharaji as a cult. the 'cult.' in the title is standard internet abbreviation for 'alternative culture', a designation contained on hundreds if not thousands of groups, so titled, where humanity the world over can gather in virtual association and converse about whatever subject they have in common. That said, I would think you would now feel quite foolish, realizing that the first appearance on the net of a place to speak of Maharaji was in fact neutral, not 'anti'. The site you doubtless would like to indicate as 'anti-Maharaji next, would be that titled 'ex-premie .org'. In the true history of its existence, this site was not published for purposes of defaming or 'exposing' Maharaji. It was an effort by one human being who had been a member to offer a place where others who had been members, to come and socialize, as onetime membership in this experience is not exactly familiar to the general public and is tedious to explain to the average person on the street( or on the screen). Thus, providing a place where old friends, and once close associates from the membership years, could find familiar company on the internet, was appreciated by those who had lost track of friends they missed once they left the group. I am sorry to burst your bubble, but they were interested in one another, NOT in Maharaji. Hence, your characterization of the purpose of the site as 'anti' -Maharaji is rather paranoid or inflated by your imagination. It carries the same flavor as the mind of a woman home with her boyfriend who, when he pauses to take a phone call from another woman he knows from work , turns to him and accuses him of [take your pick:] having an affair with her/accusing him of no longer being in love with his present company/being certain they were talking about her behind her back--when in fact they were talking about the job. ' We understand your distress...' that is doubtful, since you, and indeed, we, ourselves, when we considered ourselves devoted members, specifically denied any form of distress, and attempted to determinedly supress any such feelings with redoubled efforts to meditate, surrender, get satsang, get darshan, and not listen to our minds. '...resulting from those allegations [dealt with above] and how reading such things can be confusing...' Excuse me again: No one characterized these revelations as 'confusing', Kathie. Their substance is quite clear. They are not allegations, they are facts, witnessed in the first person, and there is no question about what happened, and about what Maharaji in fact, did. You are being disingenuous, about interpreting the rhetorical presentation of exposure, as if it were expressive of naivete and seeking guidance. No one here is confused at all. Perhaps the confusion exists for you. .... 'However, as an organization, EV has to first consider the source...' very well.The source is a wide range of individuals who had no preconceptions, attended satsang, met the conditions to receive Knowledge, practiced it exactly as guided to, served Maharaji, had Darshan, devoted themselves to his work, and yes, Kathie, had the experience. In other words, we are you, in another skin. So as far as considering the source, can you impugn the personal reports of such Knowledgeable individuals who served Maharaji as closely as did Michael Dettmers, Michael Donner, Jean-Michel, Anth, and Guy Rollins? Did they serve him any less rigorously than you yourself do? ...' and motive of the allegations and criticisms...' the motives of the allegations and criticisms, you say. the motive of the criticisms... If you are duty bound to examine motives, then that would be a matter of ethics, would it not? Yet you profess not to comprehend the matters of ethical conscience expressed in Mr. Sanders' own letter. Again, this is disingenuous. If you understand the need to examine motives, surely you can turn the same strong light upon yourself! What do you believe the motives are? surely they could not be articulated any more clearly than they are in Mr. Sanders' letter! ...' before it can decide whether it is appropriate to respond....' 'it'? Pardon me. 'It'????? An 'it' is a thing, without a voice, a mind, a heart, volition. The wind is an 'it'. A rock is an 'it'. Water is an 'it'. You, however, at Elan Vital are human beings. You are nothing else, are you not? You cannot say 'we'? you are not human beings, with conscience, ethical awareness, without any sense of responsibility to the public? 'Elan Vital also respects the right to freedom of speech as well as the right that all individuals have to come to their own conclusions.' If so, then perhaps you would like to explain the efforts that were made to wipe the websites off the internet. ' Maharaji has passionately and with commitment made his gift of Knowledge and inspiration available to people from all walks of life.' well, let us take those item by item. 'Passionately':does this refer to his raising his voice and berating, humiliating, ridiculing and abusing the belief his followers evidence in serving him? 'Committment': would this refer to the promised lifetime shelter of the ashrams, which he abruptly dissolved without warning, or providence for those who had given their trust and lives to him? Would it refer to his comment some time ago that 'maybe he needed to go out and get himself a whole new bunch of premies and let all the old ones go'? Is that what you mean when you refer to 'Committment'? Or perhaps you are citing his declaration that 'he had come to establish a thousand years of Peace'? He said that 'very soon, the whole world would know who is Guru Maharaji'. He said that 30 years ago, when he was 14. But today he insists he said no such thing. Is that the Committment you refer to? 'People from all walks of life': well, maybe not all walks. In fact, the manual today is very specific about not giving Knowledge to people from all walks. It is very vivd aboutb excluding those who cannot meet the delineated descriptions, made plain in the aspirant manual, meaning, those who do not have sizeable and steady incomes to donate, those who have shown signs of disability or psychiatric handicap, those who cannot afford satellite subscriptions to Dishnet and Visions broadcasts, and especially not those who ask probing questions, regarding Maharaji's character and motives. 'He does this freely...' !!!Surely you can't be in earnest!!! You are well aware of the costs of attending Amaroo, of subscribing to Dishnet and to Visions, of the hours lost from work, the registration costs of announced programs, the issuance of the Smart Cards! This is precisely why aspirants are screened for income and the destitute discouraged from pursuing their interest. Nothing about Knowledge is free! You cannot receive it unless you invest enormous amounts of time, energy, belief, and money! ...'and asks people to judge it by their experience.' Kathie!! What on earth do you think we are doing??? if he asks us to judge it by our experience, what on earth do you think we are basing our entire inquiry upon? Our Experience is exactly what this all because of! WE each and all HAD experience with him! People who have no experience with him would not be so motivated! If you want to really get technical about it, we are only doing what he asked us to do, which was to come, try it, have our experience, and then tell the world about it!! How can you find anything wrong in that? Isn't that exactly what you at Elan Vital do? Isn't that your whole reason for existing? Aren't we doing exactly the same thing? 'Confusing allegations and stories about Maharaji have been around since the day he arrived in the West, and even before that, when he travelled in India.' Yes, and how much of that confusion has been deliberately promulgated by Majaraji himself, to mislead, conceal, prevaricate, and to set people against each other? According to our eyewitnesses, we can identify reams of such intentional acts, which were knowingly set in motion by Maharaji himself, and remain in force as we speak. You, yourself are a party to this. 'It will always be a person's option to weigh the stories...' indeed it will. And thank whatever forces that created us that we have that ability! ...' and their relevance...' ...' with their own personal first hand experience, and see what feels most right.' and this is what we are doing here, and what Mr.Sanders is doing by issuing his open letter to his community and his letter to you. Ethical decisions are about doing what is right. '... The option to practice Knowledge or stop has always been and remains an individual decision.' I would like to call your attention to the phrase 'to practice Knowledge' Let us think on this a while. The question was asked during the Watergate hearings, 'What did the President know, and when did he know it?' This frames the ethics of what one does, when one has knowledge, and what does when one comes into it. One can come into knowledge of something and make a decision to conceal it. Or to allow it to go on. Or to make it public. 'To practice knowledge' takes on some unexpected meanings, then. The premies at the residence who were X-rated had knowledge they were called upon to practice. The practice of that knowledge was to participate in what went on at the residence, in the form of drinking and drug taking and sexual procurement, and while they knew, to not let anyone know who was not there. and yes, Kathie, one always does have the option whether to continue in the practice of that knowledge, or not. We have opted to stop, to not to practice that kind of knowledge, out of conscience, integrity and committment. 'In Maharaji's lifelong effort to make his gift available,...' what is his gift, exactly? These techniques are not exclusively his. They are millennia old. They are no more remarkable than children showing one another they can fold their tongues or bend their thumbs back double jointed. Is this a gift? Is the first person who shows you what sex is, giving you a gift? Is a person who swears you to lifelong secrecy giving you a gift? Is a person who forbids you to speak about the ostensibly most beautiful thing you ever experienced, giving you a gift? A gift is something given without asking anything back in return. It's a spontaneous gesture. A gift does not require a subsequent lifetime of imposed silence, or the repeated prodding to be grateful for it. You don't have to do anything to earn it or merit it. This does not in any way remotely describe what a person encounters when crossing paths with receiving Knowledge! It is not given; it is witheld. Conditions are imposed, both before and after. Once one receives it, one never hears the end of it. Fears are insinuated into it. 'gift' could not be farther from the truth. Maharaji does not give any gift. ...' he has done so always displaying integrity...' [refer to the comments regarding his displays of 'committment' and 'confusion' ...' and a quest to make it ever more understandable...' may I call your attention to the famous line in the Tao Te Ching? to wit, 'Those who speak of it cannot not know; Those who know of it cannot speak. The Tao/Way that can be spoken is not the true Tao/Way' here, by definition, we have something which ostensibly cannot be spoken or spoken about, yet Maharaji--and you, for him, attempt to portray him as nobley devoting himself to doing exactly that. It is clear, thus, that By definition, he is doomed to fail, he is on a fool's errand, and, that whatever it is he DOES speak of, he cannot be speaking in the True Way. I believe that american saying adequately apples, then: 'Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach'. ...' and obtainable.'... [refer to my comments above, regarding the officially dictated screening out of undesirable aspirants] 'Helping make Maharaji's message known has been and will continue to be a great honor for Elan Vital.' Well, you are welcome to place yourselves in the service of someone on a fool's errand. He is wasting your time and the world's nobly portraying himself as speaking about something he never can, and by association, you are, as well. A fool and his money are soon parted. I suppose it is a good thing that what money he takes in is of zero use, until he puts it back into the general economy, by spending it, thus releasing it back to the rest of the human race, where it can be used and of real benefit to those who need it. How many gold toilets does anyone need, after all?

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:24:03 (GMT) From: Mark Email: None To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: Elan Vital's Reply Message:

These are the letters to hand out at the next international gathering in Europe or the US; or better yet, to leaflet from a low flying airplane as The 'Lord' gathers his disciples around him at Ivory Rock, to reinforce his dependency hypnosis! What a heroic logical sincere dude you are. Worth 10,000 artful dodgers, with or without the Krishna costume.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:30:44 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: Great work Jim (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:49:07 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: Dear Kathie Thomas Message:

Dear Kathie Thomas, Reading letters such as the one you wrote(after many hand wringing sessions with innumerable others) makes me hope that SOMEONE sues the fecking shit out of Elan Vital. This letter is highly offensive to all those who have suffered at the hands of Captain Rawat, the cult, and those who run it. I suspect you will one day regret having put your name to that letter. Marianne

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:41:28 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: This reads like a letter from my Congressman Message:

I would ask something specific and I would get a form letter and a newsletter back and an appeal to vote for him. It's always disappointing (especially with these players) to witness someone doing this to protect themselves legally, as if the simple truthful answers to the questions would not be protection enough. Sandy

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:56:48 (GMT) From: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Second Letter to Elan Vital Message:

Dear Kathie Thomas, I thank you for your response to my first letter. However, I do have to ask: do you realize that you did not answer any of my questions? Was that intentional, or do you intend to answer the specific questions that I posed? Would you please, in your response to this second letter, indicate if your intention is to 1) engage in a real dialogue about these issues, or 2) be evasive , give me the 'party line', and ultimately not answer them. I am quite serious, Kathy, and I feel that these issues are of the utmost importance. In regard to these issues and allegations, you state that EV must consider the sources and their motives. The sources of these allegations are people, just like us, who served tirelessly and selflessly for many, many years. These are people who served in high positions around maharaji (instructors, community coordinators, personal advisors and organizational leaders) and were chosen because of their integrity and honest desire to serve him. Their motive now is to tell the truth about maharaji: in many instances their conscience is a large factor, as in the case where Michael Dettmers apologized to the former ashram residents for the calloused way they were treated and summarily dismissed by maharaji. They have also stated that they want to prevent anyone in the future from being treated the way they were in the past. They also think it is important for people to know the man they will be involved with for the rest of their life, before they make any commitment to that man. Additionally, there are huge discrepancies in maharaji’s words and deeds, and they would like answers to them. Aren’t these honest and honorable motives? Isn’t there room to have a dialogue about these questions? Do you see how it can potentially help everyone, including maharaji himself, and his students that he claims to care about? As you can see, these stories come from people who supported maharaji. They are not from long time detractors such as the Arya Samaj who opposed him and his father in India, and these are not crazy stories like the 'jewel thief' or 'watch smuggler' stories from the early 1970’s. These are real stories from real people, who saw first hand what they report. And what they report is disturbing because it contradicts so much of what maharaji has preached for decades. The reason it is important to know if these stories are true, is because of the central role that maharaji plays in knowledge. We all know that an aspirant does not get four techniques of meditation and walk away to pursue their own enlightenment. Maharaji plays the most central and dominant role, and it is for that reason that people have a right to know if these things are true. Whether they realize it or not, when a person receives knowledge they are signing up for a lifetime dependency relationship wrapped in devotional love for maharaji. This is hinted at, but not advertised broadly at first. Shouldn’t people know what this man is like in all aspects of his life before they enter into a devotional love relationship with him? What will they think when they start down this new found path, and then realize that the man off stage is very different from the man on stage? What harm have I done to someone if I lead them to a teacher who acts in hypocritical ways or has a drinking problem, and I choose to not tell him about it? Premies say they don’t think about these things, but I do. I realize that what I may be doing in the name of helping people may ultimately be hurting them and myself as well. This is why the truth and a sense of ethics are so important. Shouldn’t they know if he 'walks the talk'? Or does he feel that he, as their teacher, is above a dialogue such as this? How can he ever expect to keep his students if he won’t engage in a real and meaningful dialogue with them from time to time? This one sided presentation that he puts on causes a lot of people to not trust the man or the process. For instance, when he has a 'Q&A' session, he picks before hand which questions he wants to answer. Generally, the questions are either silly or 'softball' questions with obvious answers. Many people, such as myself, have real questions, and get no answers. Do you understand what I am talking about? Can you imagine any middle aged person allowing their young son or daughter to get involved with maharaji, with all of these allegations swirling around him, coming from real people who were long time followers? I can’t. When he avoids answering the questions, it only makes him look like he is hiding something. Why doesn’t he come out and address the issues? If he has nothing to hide it would only make him look stronger, and his critics weaker. Do you think that your evasive answers are going to satisfy new people? Why should anyone take a chance on a man with so much baggage, who never levels with his followers of up to 30 years? Do you ever think about things like that? Let me give you a recent example from my life. A woman I know quite well has asked me many times about meditation. She knows I do it, and feels that she could benefit from some sort of meditation. She also knows about the scandals around maharaji. She finally asked me what I thought she should do, and I told her that while I could recommend meditation to her, I could not recommend maharaji to her, primarily because of all of the unanswered questions surrounding him. She has subsequently learned a meditation from someone at the local university. She thanked me for my candid talks with her about the benefits of meditation, and also praised me for having the ethical consideration of not bringing her into maharaji and knowledge. She said that she feels bad for the pwk who have to deal with all of maharaji’s baggage, in addition to having him remain so distant and evasive. She wanted to know how people could still be devoted to a man who refuses to level with them. It seemed very strange and dysfunctional to her. Her last comment was this: she was glad she got into meditation, and was so glad that it wasn’t maharaji. She also thanked me for having the integrity to not attempt to bring her into the knowledge process. Does this story tell you anything? Another thing that astounds me is that you never once mention any interest in the jagdeo situation, after I specifically mentioned it in the first letter. Once again, I will pose the same question: is your intent to find the truth and have justice served, or is it to stall, cover up and protect maharaji? Wouldn’t you want to know what I have to contribute, so that the process of finding the truth can be furthered? Finally, the things that bother me the most are not the scandals of drugs, alcohol and affairs, but the 'revisionist history' that goes on at maharaji’s websites. Does he really believe that he can clear the past by rewriting it or pretending it did not happen? His version of events strains the imagination and is an insult to all of the thousands who gave so much to him and his work in the 1970’s. I am sure maharaji is deeply embarrassed by much of what he said and did during that era: none of his grandiose predictions ever came true, and so few people remain today, in such a sterile form. The original enthusiasm and vibrancy are gone, and the lifeless packaged format leaves many people wondering what happened. However, he could garner our respect far more by speaking honestly about the past rather than 're-inventing' himself, and the versions of history that he puts forth. It really is insulting to people like myself who gave so much and were given so much bad advice and direction by maharaji, to have him pretend that those things did not happen the way they did. I will be addressing these issues in particular in a subsequent letter to EV. I will also be addressing the issue of ethics and morality: the lack of ethics in this organization has hurt the work very badly, yet no one seems to talk about it. This lack of ethics has eroded trust in most of the people who have been involved, and the results are quite obvious. For some reason this is never talked about, and I wonder why. Kathie, I will assume that you are an honest person. I believe that like myself and many others, you are a good person caught in a bad situation. My hunch is that you know that a lot of this is true, but because it is difficult to wrestle with, and being in your position of loyalty to maharaji, you find a rational for not dealing with it. This ultimately hurts you, as his avoidance of the truth becomes yours as well. His denial becomes your denial. I believe that you are caught in the same situation as those people who served President Clinton: good, loyal people who were caught in a bad situation and had to compromise their ethics to 'serve the boss'. Do you see how maharaji’s evasiveness affects his work, and his students lives as well. Please reflect deeply on these things and respond from your heart. I’d like to know what you, Kathie Thomas, really feel, not a repetition of the 'party line' that seems so prevalent these days. If you are participating in the covering up of scandalous information, it will eventually takes it toll on your life as well. I don’t believe that ethics are an option, or a 'concept' to be gotten over. If you are 'covering' for him, you will eventually regret it. I think that people like Michael Dettmers can tell you a lot about this. I respect his forthright posts on the EPO, and sense that he wants to tell the truth, and sincerely wishes that maharaji would do the same. Have you ever talked to Michael? I have, for hours and hours, and I believe him. If the stories about Randy Prouty are true (the jagdeo sexual abuse situation, and the hit and run coverup in India), how do you think he feels? Ultimately we all have to grapple with issues like these, and while they are not always easy, it is very important that we deal with them. How we deal with them tells a lot about us, and affects our life as well. I believe that the conscience is there for a reason, and if you ignore it, you do so at your own peril. I am a seeker of truth, not a religious party member. I cannot serve someone who knowingly deviates from the truth. When faced with following the 'party line' or finding the truth, I will choose the truth. Have you thought about what you will do? I submit these questions, along with the original questions from the first letter to you again. I sincerely request you to give me specific answers to each question, not evasive non-answers to them. Thank you, Kathie. Sincerely, Jim Sander

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 11:26:32 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: Respect Jim. Message:

Jim, A big 'Thank You' for having the balls to write those excellent letters, and then sharing them with us. I think you asked those questions on behalf of lots of premies, who are beginning to question their commitment to the Captain and cult at the moment. The cult are cagey about putting anything in print about the Captain that may tarnish his image as Perfect Master or our time. They even dodge one of their own questions on their website- 'Does Maharaji have an expensive lifestyle?' or something. Asking them straight questions, like you did Jim, can be viewed as pyschologically sadistic. They can do nothing but wriggle and squirm. It's so easy to push the buttons. They are in retreat at the moment, like the German army in 1943. You can expect no sense, reason, moral perspective, honesty, straight dealing or decent human behaviour from them. What a fob-off that reply is. It's an insult to anybody's intelligence. I imagine you are now classed as 'totally confused and freaked out.', so they don't have to acknowledge you as an equal any longer. It's worse than those 'roboemails' you get when you sign up for a free website or something. In dealing with your serious, heartfelt concerns they show as much sensitiviy as a rock through the living room window. Have you had a couple of premie pals invite you out for dinner and a 'chat' yet? By the way Jim, have we communicated previously by email, when you had a different identity? Take care, and thanks again Anth still a fool in America. (It's 1.30 here).

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 04:51:55 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Jim Sander Subject: Excellent JS! - I'm curious, when you ran into.. Message:

.. people from your community, did you get the hugs you asked for or the icy stares? Excellent work - your questions represent the ultimate koan for anyone involved with M or K.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:49:16 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: Thanks Jim Sander, great letters, wonderful work. Message:

Have you by any chance sent a similar letter to M mimself? You have expressed our concerns so accurately and eloquently, that I think he should get one direct, or at least a copy of these. I think it is particularly telling that Kathy Thomas does not take the opportunity to ask you about any additional information you may have about Jagdeo. What a total deriliction of duty. Her response is a disgrace. I have printed your letters out, there are a few people I intend to show them to! Thanks again Kelly

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:50:04 (GMT) From: scottc. Email: None To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: Second Letter to Elan Vital Message:

Jim; Thankyou for expressing so eloquently and respectfully the deep concerns and questions that have escaped my own ability and patience to articulate.It is my greatest wish at this time that the issues put forth in your letters are addressed in real and non-evasive manner. I stuck between holding my breath and not....After nearly 29 years of nearly unquestioning dedication to M. and his work I am face to face with the contradiction that you have so patiently and diligently laid out. thanks for your moxy and integrity...it's an inspiring model.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 05:32:43 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: scottc. Subject: I second that scott - thank you Jim Sander Message:

A year ago I started writing a similar letter but as you said I too lacked the ''ability and patience to articulate'' it. Also, after the stonewalling that I got from the local instructor and EV honchos, I did not have any faith that it would be answered. Jim has done us all a great service to have taken such pains to put it into words. I long ago lost patience and ended up frustrated and not in a very nice mood. I'm glad that you got to see a sane approach to it, scott, instead of my crazy Irish volatility. I'm glad that there are cooler heads than mine for you to read here.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:33:57 (GMT) From: Gary Epton Email: epton@magma.ca To: Jim Sander Subject: Letters to Chapel Hill Community and EV Message:

Ditto Scottc's reply. You are a person of utmost sincerity, integrity and courage - a helluva lot more than can be said of Kathy Thomas. Thanks for so eloquently and elegantly confronting the hypocrisy.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:06:20 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: Thank you, Jim, powerful, honest letters Message:

Your three letters, struck chords loudly in me, with each sentence you wrote. I admire your integrity, honesty and forthrightness. EV's response was, as always, saying nothing of substance or answering your very valid and disturbing questions. When I read posts like yours, your courage uplifts me, then when I read EV's reply, I feel dragged down into the dark, evasive side of the cult again, my disillusionment and heartbreak concerning maharaji (and EV to some extent) wells up, and I am left thinking how lucky I am to have let my moral and 'spiritual' compass demand answers to the questions I had and the inconsistencies I saw. Take care.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:08:05 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: This is some of the best info that has ever been Message:

been posted here on FV. One of the most genuine, sincere and above board attempts to get to the truth of the cult and M. Truly a well thought out and magnificient effort on your part Jim S. Plus, A real insight to the mindset of the artful dodgers back at EV. Talk about Spin Doctor, As Sandy noted, Kathie Thomas could carve out a fabulous career on capital hill serving one of our nations most slippery political leaders. Her evasive non-response is a direct reflection on the MO of her boss and is one of the biggest arguments itself in favor of bailing out of this corrupt and deluded cult.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:25:35 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: Second Letter to Elan Vital Message:

5 February 2001 ( EV must always use the cool people way of writing the date ) Dear Jim, I do apologize for replying so late to your letter. ( I had to conference and coordinate and syncronize my obfuscitation with many PAMs) Elan Vital knows of the allegations made on the anti Maharaji websites. We understand your distress resulting from those allegations and how reading such things can be confusing. ( to a person listening to his mind such as yourself, we are not confused by it, we don't give a shit) However, as an organization EV has to first consider the source and motive of the allegations and criticisms before it can decide whether it is appropriate to respond. ( people who don't like us could not possibly have anything legitimate to say, if they were worth listening to, they would be spouting satsangspeak like us ) Elan Vital also respects the right to freedom of speech as well as the right that all individuals have to come to their own conclusions. ( we say this because it sounds good and they do have a right to be wrong and go to hell if they so choose) Maharaji has passionately and with commitment made his gift of Knowledge and inspiration available to people from all walks of life. He does this freely and asks people to judge it by their experience. ( And if he got damn rich in the proccess fuck you Jim for pointing it out) Confusing allegations and stories about Maharaji have been around since the day he arrived in the West and even before that when he travelled in India. ( the fact that he and his family have always been snake oil salesman does not disturb us.) It will always be a person's option to weigh the stories and their relevance with their own personal first hand experience, and see what feels most right. The option to practice Knowledge or stop has always been and remains an individual decision. ( if you don't like it, fuck off and leave and stop bothering us ) In Maharaji's lifelong effort to make his gift available, he has done so always displaying integrity and a quest to make it ever more understandable and obtainable. ( this sounds good too...lets talk about his integrity????? huhhhh???? wasn't that letter about his lack of it????) Helping make Maharaji's message known has been and will continue to be a great honor for Elan Vital. ( see gmj we love you , and it will alwasy be an honor to serve you and would be even if you were a mass murderer, nothing, nothing , will ever stop our devotion, we have the EXPERIENCE ) Thank you, Jim. ( Fuck you Jim) Sincerely, ( Fuck off) Kathie Thomas, Director Elan Vital ( latest person Rawat can blame when his lawyers chew him out )

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:52:14 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: EV's lack of denial of 'allegations' Message:

I find it fascinating that EV reps like Katie Thomas continue to tap-dance away from questions rather than respond with out-right denials. The people involved are refusing to go on record as having denied what there are too many others to substantiate - the 'allegations' made about Rawat online. Is this some sort of 'half-integrity' that prevents them from at least trying to protect him via lies? It's also apparent to me that the responders to these sorts of questions are hesitant to zig when they know full-well that Rawat may choose to zag tomorrow. Why they would want to unconditionally throw their life-long support behind him - regardless of what he chooses to do, and all the while allowing for his possible behavioral changes - is beyond me. Bill Clinton's staff denied the charges leveled against him because they were kept in the dark as to the truth of the charges - although they all felt foolish when he came out and admitted his guilt after being boxed in by the DNA facts. Yet EV's people don't seem to have an actual ignorance of the facts that would allow them to even offer denials. I have to wonder what sort of inner rationale Katie Thomas and others can have to allow them to continue to support Rawat when it's obvious that they are too aware of the truth about him to deny the facts.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:28:58 (GMT) From: Alan Fenstermacher Email: alan@woodcon.com To: Brian Subject: EV's lack of denial of 'allegations' Message:

Brian, Do you think she may believe she answered all his questions with the 'and see what feels most right.' She is defacto saying if you believe your experience with m is true then you should believe the allegations false. Definetly in denial. Jim is sincerly asking questions and they might as well have said meditate brother and saved the paper. A-

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:45:36 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Alan Fenstermacher Subject: I agree, Alan Message:

(although it is hard to get used to calling you Alan - Ben Lurking was a great alias) Seems like she is saying that if it feels good to meditate, then why worry about anything else - like other people getting hurt? It also sounds like a typical form letter, in that it takes several paragraphs to say virtually nothing. I'd be very angry if I got this kind of letter in response to some serious questions.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:56:00 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Katie H Subject: Form letter - 1000s got the same one NT Message:

k

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:57:10 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Pat Conlon Subject: Duping the duped Message:

If that's the case then there are now an awful lot of premies out there who see that the time that they spent writing for answers to their questions was met as with a reply as impersonal as junk mail. Wouldn't surprise me, though. EV and Rawat ALWAYS do the absolute worst thing possible at every 'crisis'. Why stop shooting themselves in the foot now?

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:01:51 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Did you get one, Pat? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:19:41 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon - I wish you Email: None To: Katie H Subject: No, I did not have the patience to write to them Message:

But, after I told one of the local PWKs about the yacht, he wrote to EV and got one.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 11:37:36 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Pat Conlon - I wish you Subject: If I write to EV will they... Message:

Hi Pat, If I write to EV do you think I'll get a yacht too? It must have been a good letter. When they asked for a response to their FAQs, on their website, I sent a letter to them. But I didn't get a reply. I think we are on some sort of contaminated list Pat. If they send us an email, our black, hate-filled, vibrations, may somehow wriggle back up the phone line, via Yahoo.com, and spoil their meditation. Yeah, Patrick, for we are the accursed who have spat in the face of the Lord, and will need a brand new-all badder-chamber of Hell, worse than anything ever, built by Satans contractors, especially for us. Anth, who could have been a contender.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 18:41:47 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: AJW Subject: Oh Anth, you always catch my syntax errors Message:

What a hoot. Actually they just sent him a small plastic replica of a yacht. Now he keeps his stash in it. I'm thinking of writing to them about the Krishna crown. Wonder if they'll send it? Loved the old Hindu drag.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 19:06:24 (GMT) From: aoaji Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Oh Anth, you always catch my syntax errors Message:

In your shining crown and coat You still can't even play a note My sad guru looks like 'Divine' Now I have found my bald spot again.. Bald spot again! Bald spot again! Bald spot again; Bald spot again - With the downpour of the Holi paint My five hundred dollar suit is ruined and stained.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:35:53 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: aoaji Subject: Nice song - My sad guru looks like 'Divine' Message:

I wish he would still wear the Hindu drag though.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 19:50:38 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: aoaji Subject: Oh Anth, you always catch my syntax errors Message:

aoaji, i think I love you! but I don't even know your name! yeah, but i think i love you....etc

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 04:58:22 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Oh Anth, you always catch my syntax errors Message:

Hey, we can work with that. It's Chris.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:24:06 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Pat Conlon - I wish you Subject: Thanks Message:

It would be interesting to see it if you did (although I guess you would already have shown it to us!) What is the 'I wish you...'? Katie, your fellow Taurus (when is your birthday, BTW?)

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 05:24:44 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Katie H. Subject: Oops. sorry Katie the ''I wish you...' Message:

Was one of those dingleberries that gets memorised in the ''from'' space. I had used it earlier to tease bill. Didn't see it.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:08:34 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: Absolutely wonderful work, Jim! Message:

I was surprised to see that EV didn't properly answer you though. Who'd have thought? These are really, really good letters on your part? Are you here, now? (I mean literally!). What, if any, reaction have you gotten from your fellow community members? You don't ever go by 'James' by chance, do you? 'Jimmy'? Nicknames?

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:00:14 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Jim Sander (posted by FA) Subject: Thank you, Jim, and *** Best Of *** Message:

Jim, I would just like to thank you for allowing this correspondence to be published here. I admire your courage and integrity. Thanks. J-M, Candidate for 'Best of Forum'? Forum Admin

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 06:50:42 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Good call, FA -- I third the motion n/t Message:

best

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:35:20 (GMT) From: Mark Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Good call, FA ! First page stuff !(nt) Message:

huug

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:14:24 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Thank you, Jim, and *** Best Of *** Message:

I agree--excellent.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:49:17 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Helen Subject: Definitely 'best of', IMHO, and Message:

Jim S., you are a very courageous person. Thanks so much.

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Date: Tues, Apr 03, 2001 at 18:15:23 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Katie H. Subject: and so say all of us!(us silent majority types) nt Message:

uryt

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 15:55:57 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Conscientious Objection Message:

I have been letting myself be lately and not stressing out on all this information about Maharaji. In the process of letting myself be, I hoped to have a cathartic experience that would break the inner logjam, the love-hate thing going on with the person we all called Master and Lord and sincerely loved. He was the ocean all our rivers seemed to emptying into. We all poured out some form of energy or another to him, be it money, time, stuff, life force, health...but every premie or ex-premie I know all gave him one thing in common: the ultimate respect that would only be due to the Deity itself, which not only took energy, but created deep pathways in our mental, psychic and emotional processes - yea, down to every bodily fucntion down to cellular levels - in a word, 'surrender' on one level or another. I have been considering all things pertaining to this for some time now, and some of you have taken the proud position of being the judge of how long I am taking being a 'good' or 'bad' thing, and an indicator of my intestinal fortitude or some such macho measurement. It's a free country and a freer internet. Go for it. I have reached a level of peace with myself about all this. In a moment of clarity, I realized that how I had objected to things in the past was a good example of how to object to things now. When I was in college, the war in Vietnam was raging. In the USA there was a draft lottery and my number was 81, pretty low. At the same time all this way going on, I was seriously considering leaving college, which I did in January 1971. Within a week, I was contacted by mail from Uncle Sam and there was a fresh draft card inside with my 1-A status, since I had dropped out of school there was no more 2-S student deferrment. Point is, I did not renounce my USA citizenship in protest to the war nor did I leave the country...not that there's anything wrong with that, it just was not my style. I contacted the draft board and told them that I would not fight in such an unjust war. I conscientiously objected to some of the practices of my country without renouncing my citizenship. Now I never thought in a million years that I would have to process and believe that someone who obviously started his young life rolling up his sleeves and helping to bring more consciousness to human beings would have so many personal dysfunctional situations to deal with in his own personal life. It is not the accumulation of money or anything it can buy that troubles me. A great teacher can live in any style he or she chooses, far as I'm concerned. It's the repeated reports of the mistreatment of human beings, already humbled and vulnerable out of either devotional love or holy fear, at the hands of a young teacher and out-of-control, overzealous, and in some cases mentally ill assistants who have wreaked havoc in the lives of some who, there but for the grace of God, go I - that troubles me. That, and the haunting claim of the 'guru being greater than God because Guru shows you God'. This was warned against specifically in the Bible, (and I had been studying it pretty solid for three years prior to running into Maharaji) to avoid anyone who claims to be greater than God, and I have somehow compartmentalized and blocked that tidbit for 23 years, preferring to believe that it doesn't mean the same thing in the west as it does in the east or something and trusting that something must have been lost in the translation and not to worry...I think it was Charanand who smoothed that one over in my head many years ago. Whatever he said, it has held up to now... If I have learned anything at all from 30 years of looking for God, it is not about 'cosmic' experiences. They are nice, but they are the icing on the cake. When not under the sheet having the cosmic inner stuff, I have found it's good to stop along the way to offer help to someone injured along the roadside. That is plenty cosmic in itself if our eyes are open wide enough to see the miracle in that simple act of one person reaching out to help another. In my effort to help, I have been helped. It has happened quite naturally and gradually. What I sought to give, I have gotten in return. After the initial polarity wore off when I first got here, I have been in support of many people who have been wronged, from Susan and Abi to the DECA ones who got sick and some died, to Pat Halley, to the guy whose bookbuying idea got ripped off, to the women who might have been afraid to say 'no', to the ashram premies who got put out, to many other cruel and unusual experiences that many went through on the road to infinite devotion and love....not just on the street where shit would be expected to happen, but in the very places where shelter was promised in return for lifelong surrender and devotional love. I conscientiously object to the documented injuries that have been inflicted upon the people who have posted here and those who are coming forth. I do not view the experiences documented on this site as concurrent with the experiences one would have under the mantle of a teacher of unconditional love, and at the hands of his assistants. As someone who has enjoyed Knowledge for 23 years, I must say that I cannot condone, support or defend the words and deeds documented herein perpetrated upon my brothers and sisters. All this has created alienation between people here who might otherwise get along just fine. I am sure there is a percentage here who want to primarily just create trouble for Mahraji and have no other deep purpose...there is that element in all groups, premies too. But looking further, I have seen and felt through my little 10' monitor alot of very real pain and suffering that happened at the hands of those who we were encouraged to trust, by none other than the Master himself. So I don't come calling names or cracking on weight, height, sexual prowess or preference, personal habits...of Maharaji, or of anyone else. I come here conscientiously objecting to the person or persons who created the unjust situations that are documented here on this site and I urge open and honest disclosure of any facts that are being withheld. That's the direction I see the light coming from at the end of the tunnel, more simple truth, less convolution, more evolution. I wrote and posted this not just for myself, but in the hope it helps another. Treading water, scanning for fins, chainmail suit zipped up, In love, Sandy The truth does set us free.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:02:48 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Sandy you are trying to have it both ways again Message:

The dilemmia you have created is that treading water is not progress, and in your case it gets worse. Your last sentence pretty wells summarizes your condition. Treading water, scanning for fins, chainmail suit zipped up, You can't float or tread water with a chainmail suit on, you will surely drown, do you see what you are doing here? You are dancing with issues looking for loopholes and trying to juggle the best of both worlds. The truth will only set you free if you are 100% totally committed to the truth. Half measures will avail you nothing, try being more conscious and less consciencious, start swimming and stop treading water, take off your chainmail armor and expose yourself to the reality of the cult situation and the truth about M. Think about what you are saying here Sandy, how much more energy do you have to waste on the daunting possibility of staying afloat in a chainmail suit.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:45:03 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Any day above ground is a good day Message:

Brian, I hear what you are saying. If you look at the PS post, I clarified that little fear thing I had going when I signed off. Sandy

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:52:06 (GMT) From: Patrick W Email: None To: Sandy Subject: A man after my own heart.... Message:

I second that emotion, I support this notion Sandy.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:57:53 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Conscientious Objection Message:

Now I never thought in a million years that I would have to process and believe that someone who obviously started his young life rolling up his sleeves and helping to bring more consciousness to human beings would have so many personal dysfunctional situations to deal with in his own personal life. What makes you think Maharaji brought so much 'consciousness' to people? People already are conscious, no thanks to him. But, again, this word 'consciousness' gets bandied about with so much spiritual baggage, I'm not even sure what people are talking about when they use it. Suppose you explain to me, Sandy, just what you mean by Maharaji 'bringing more consciousness to human beings'. If I understood that, maybe I'd understand you better. Thanks.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:33:08 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Conscientious Objection Message:

Jerry, First, let me say that nothing here is presented as a defense or a rationalization for some of the atrocious things that have happened to some people here at the figurative and literal hands of Maharaji, some of his his authorized representatives, and DLM/EV. You asked me: 'What makes you think Maharaji brought so much 'consciousness' to people?' Fact is, that was my experience and the experience of many with whom I spent time back in the late 70's and on into he 80's, from the viewpoint of where I was living my life, notwithstanding any other things going on of a less divine nature at the time. By consciousness, let me qualify that by saying that I had more happiness, joy, peace and calm on deep levels in my own life. The like testimonies of many others attested to this being a common experience to those who had received Knowledge and were practicing. These things - happiness, joy, peace and calm - are fruits of the spirit, healthy fruits of a person's efforts to find inner fulfillment in life. Let me also qualify the 'brought consciousness' phrase. He did not 'bring' anyone else's consciousness up or down but his own. I think it would be more accurate to say that he helped people access their own higher levels of consciousness via Knowledge, which he showed people how to do, nothwithstanding anything else that happened of a negative nature under the same auspices. Jerry, I hope this answers your question. If not, keep asking. If we don't connect here now, it's not due to purposeful evasion. So keep asking and giving feedback please. This is how shit gets worked out, through communication. And I want the shit worked out. Sandy

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:36:17 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Conscientious Objection Message:

Sandy, Maybe Maharaji brought more happiness into your life, if you say so. I'll leave that for you to determine. But your happiness=consciousness axiom I disagree with. People can be just as conscious of pain as they can be of happiness, of sadness as much as joy. Consciousness isn't defined by what you're conscious of. Consciousness is simply the ability to be aware, of anything. If you want to say Maharaji brought so much happiness and joy into peoples' lives, that would be a more accurate way of saying what you mean, not that I agree. He may have brought all this happiness into others' lives, but not mine, and I suspect by the numbers of people who stay on for any length of time, not too many others, either.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:59:49 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Yes, like Patrick W. I agree with all you say Message:

Good point, Sandy. Maharaji brought me so much peace and love. He really did take me closer to my own universal god consciousness. I hope that point is never lost amidst anything else I ever say about him. The man has a gift, there's no doubt about it. Boy, I just hope that one day we can all live together again under the banner of peace and stuff. Maybe that day we can start having some really good, honest festivals -- like a really down-to-earth Guru Puja or something. Get real again. Find our roots again. Like Patrick W. I agree with all your sentiments.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:11:02 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Jim Subject: This is not Jim Heller, it couldn't be Message:

We have a problem Jim (Sander?) like we have two Patrick's, two Brian's two Katies and now two Jim's. You will have to use an initial after your name Jim ? or use your full name or something to eliminate confusion.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:16:06 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: You need to recognise the 5th technique.. Message:

...tongue-in-cheek - Maharaji uses it all the time, and Jim is pretty good at it too:-) John.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:39:21 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: JHB Subject: I got It, thanks for revealing the final technique Message:

JHB and to think it was right here inside of me all of the time. Right there within inside my mouth Does this mean that I have to prostrate before you and send you some money for the rest of my life. Shit, I don't even have a picture of you to erect and altar with, I am such a terrible devotee, blub, blub, I am so not worthy of your mercy and I do not deserve the 5th technique. Oh JHB Ji your grace is sooo incredible .......... Thank you, thank you, sniff, blub, grovel

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:50:27 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: I got It, thanks for revealing the final technique Message:

Somewhere on J-M's pages on this site are the pictures from the Latvian night in London last year. There you will find the image you require. Send cheques to me at 'Jokas', LV-4011, Latvia. Blessings to all the tongue-tied. John the not very good at being a guru

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:27:43 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: JHB Subject: JHB Ji, am I doing it right Message:

does the tongue go on the right side or the left side of the cheek? Brian not so good at practicing techniques anymore

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:29:06 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: JHB Ji, am I doing it right Message:

It doesn't matter what side of the cheek you put it on, but it really HELPS to use emoticons! We need a 'tongue-in-cheek' emoticon around here for sure.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:58:01 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Katie H. Subject: You're both doing it wrong Message:

The way that Rev Moontits showed us in Atlanta is to put your tongue between lower lip and teeth on the left side of the mouth. He has a little wrinkle there for the BS to run out of.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:49:23 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Sandy Subject: no sharks here Message:

Interesting observations, Sandy, but, as you know, most of us here don't have much faith in Maharaji's ability to raise anyone's consciousness. Don't you think it could be simply your faith in the guru that created the conditions necessary for the cosmic experiences etc.? Yeah, I agree that it is possible (but improbable) for a guru to be an alcoholic adulterer and still be capable of delivering a good dose of shaktipat, but I've seen no evidence that Maharaji even meditates, let alone has the capacity for spiritual transmission. What makes you believe M is spiritual at all? BTW, what happened to your C.O. application? Mine would surely have been denied. I was attending a Quaker college, but was not a Quaker, and my draft board was very very conservative. Luckily, my lottery number was 299!

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:23:04 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Gregg Subject: no sharks here Message:

Gregg, I was referring to any lurking ill-intentioned premies more than I was referring to any ex-premies when I was talking about sharks. Now onto your questions and my answers. Don't you think it could be simply your faith in the guru that created the conditions necessary for the cosmic experiences etc.? -Gregg My faith was definitely one of the components, a major one too. Other components were necessary too. -Sandy Yeah, I agree that it is possible (but improbable) for a guru to be an alcoholic adulterer and still be capable of delivering a good dose of shaktipat, but I've seen no evidence that Maharaji even meditates, let alone has the capacity for spiritual transmission. What makes you believe M is spiritual at all? -Gregg What makes me believe that he has some juice are a combination of my own personal experiences and the global presence he has created. Not all of it was ill gotten. -Sandy BTW, what happened to your C.O. application? Mine would surely have been denied. I was attending a Quaker college, but was not a Quaker, and my draft board was very very conservative. -Gregg After I went in and stated my case about knowing why the U.S. was over there (tungsten, copper and geographical power and presence in that area), they reclassifeied me from 1-A to 1-H and I never heard from them again. To this day, I do not know what 1-H meant, but I recall glimpsing the notes of a doctor who interviewed me and I caught the word 'schizophrenic'. Little did I know then that schizoprenia is a stage of development for one on the path of enlightenment and was totally normal, just not politically correct or socially acceptable in the modern material world. Sandy

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:17:51 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Sandy Subject: global presence Message:

sandy wrote: 'What makes me believe that he has some juice are a combination of my own personal experiences and the global presence he has created. Not all of it was ill gotten.' His global presence isn't too dissimilar to Rev. Moon's or L. Ron Hubbard's. Do you think those two have 'juice?' What do you think of the revelations of Rawat's character on these pages? Do they point to a realized man? C'mon, the guy doesn't even fucking meditate! M was in the right place at the right time; we projected our desires for a God-man on him; he liked the benefits of the job; he played the game. M is God in the same was you and I and Charles Manson are God, but there is NO evidence that he can actually help anyone attain any sort of spiritual state. Premies only wish it to be so and believe it is so.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:03:40 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: And how about this part, Patrick? Agree here too? Message:

Patrick, Let's clear this up, shall we? You say Sandy's sentiments are your own. Sandy believes that Maharaji's got some special guru 'juice'. Do you? Yes or no?

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:34:56 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: Jim Subject: And how about this part, Patrick? Agree here too? Message:

Patrick, Let's clear this up, shall we? You say Sandy's sentiments are your own. Sandy believes that Maharaji's got some special guru 'juice'. Do you? Yes or no? Yes- No -oh alright then ..No, with a tinsey dash of yes but basically no. Let me be clearer about this. I think that what we got from Maharaji is directly related to and commesurate with what we brought into the whole thing -what we gave him if you like. Ie. I think that Maharaji DID and probably still does serve as the mirror for people's sincerity and intent when they give him attention. That to me was a major dynamic. That was the way it worked. Now you can sit there and say 'it doesn't work' till you're blue in the face but the fact is that it did for you too for a while -because of your investment -activated by your investment and expectations about him. His talent for being a mirror, if that's what it is, is not really so different than the astrologers skill in telling people what they want to hear or are most likely to relate to. I don't think astrologers are doing such a great service -their 'healing' relies on pacebo and feeding back to people what they expect -maybe with a positive spin if you're lucky. I don't believe that Maharaji has any magical power or that he is a God's appointed channel any more than the rest of us are. I do observe this principle of empowering him with our love and devotion does pay some dividends in that it satisfies some need to feel that some living authority has got things confidently under control in the world. Maharaji's message that everything is OK and we should realax and trust him is very appealing and persuasive. Ju-ju juice? Well, yes..it works for very down-to earth reasons -but is it magic -ju-ju juice? Nah -not really. It's largely the same kind of ju-ju juice that the Wizard of OZ used to maintain his position in town. The meditation, in my experience works in that it feels very nice -very groovy. He just distributes this stuff with a ju-ju juice label at a high price. He can to date because it's rather rare in some ways. It's like Sir Walter Raleigh turning up from the Indies with a cargo of tobacco and saying that tobacco was his invention or something -anyway -I'm sure he could have charged a fortune for the stuff. We paid up for knowledge and many people continue to do so. That also helps people to value it in a funny sort of way. They've paid by listening for months or whatever -sacrifices they've made -so there damn well going to practice it and give it a good shot. I paid a fortune for an annual subscription to the gym here a while ago. I went once that year. I figured I had paid so I didn't need to go as well did I? I was most disappointed not to have lost weight automatically. Sorry that wasn't so clear -ask me another.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:43:33 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Patrick Subject: OK. You want another question? Try this Message:

Your post above seems to somewhat reluctantly concede that Maharaji's 'power', such as it is, is nothing more than that projected on him. In that respect, I'm sure you'll agree, he has no more magic of any kind than does Harry Potter. Agree or disagree? Explain? But maybe you could explain this as well. Your post to Sandy applauds his comments as those of a 'man of [your] own heart'. Sandy said this: As someone who has enjoyed Knowledge for 23 years, I must say that I cannot condone, support or defend the words and deeds documented herein perpetrated upon my brothers and sisters. All this has created alienation between people here who might otherwise get along just fine. I am sure there is a percentage here who want to primarily just create trouble for Mahraji and have no other deep purpose...there is that element in all groups, premies too. But looking further, I have seen and felt through my little 10' monitor alot of very real pain and suffering that happened at the hands of those who we were encouraged to trust, by none other than the Master himself. So I don't come calling names or cracking on weight, height, sexual prowess or preference, personal habits...of Maharaji, or of anyone else. I come here conscientiously objecting to the person or persons who created the unjust situations that are documented here on this site and I urge open and honest disclosure of any facts that are being withheld. That's the direction I see the light coming from at the end of the tunnel, more simple truth, less convolution, more evolution. Question, then: Are you someone who's 'enjoyed Knowledge' for x number of years? What's Knowledge? Explain? Second question: Sandy, in his inimicable self-righteous way, claims that there are two kinds of people here -- those that have the sensitivity to understand the 'very real pain' some have suffered in Maharaji's world and the others, whose vision is less profound and who have 'no deeper purpose' than to create trouble for Maharaji. Sandy, of course, is one of the deeper, sensitive types. Do you subscribe to this analysis? If so, are you one of the 'deeper' kind of guys? Explain?

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:36:43 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Sandy, Explain This! Message:

Sandy said:- Little did I know then that schizoprenia is a stage of development for one on the path of enlightenment and was totally normal, just not politically correct or socially acceptable in the modern material world. My brother, who had been a premie, died in 1996, after 21 years of mental illness, initially diagnosed as schizophrenia. How was this a stage of development on the path of enlightenment? Sandy, you continue to use words that you assume have a meaning that people share an understanding of. What is enlightenment? Do you believe such a thing exists? Have you ever met an enlightened person? And if so, do they look back on their schizophrenic stage with a smile? John beginning to despair for Sandy

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:00:57 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: JHB Subject: Don't dispair, JHB Message:

Little did I know then that schizoprenia is a stage of development for one on the path of enlightenment and was totally normal, just not politically correct or socially acceptable in the modern material world. -Sandy My brother, who had been a premie, died in 1996, after 21 years of mental illness, initially diagnosed as schizophrenia. How was this a stage of development on the path of enlightenment? -JHB My understanding and experience of schizophrenia is very similar to the dark night of the soul as described in many old writings. Everyone does not survive it. My condolences about your brother. I lost a brother too, to AIDS, which was planted in the population by governments, mine among them. I know how it feels to lose someone you love because of an injustice. -Sandy Sandy, you continue to use words that you assume have a meaning that people share an understanding of. What is enlightenment? Do you believe such a thing exists? Have you ever met an enlightened person? And if so, do they look back on their schizophrenic stage with a smile? -JHB You are right. This is no time to use words like enlightenment or schizophrenia, not that they are inaccurate, but they are not in touch with what is happening here between us. I would say that I use 'enlightenment' as a way of describing a balanced calm and peaceful life, despite whatever is being dished in my direction...the ability to cope, to deal, and more, to have an overriding experience of calm in the face of chaos, the peace that passes understanding. As for schizophrenia, we all face duality in our lives if we seek an inner experience in a material world, how much depends how deep we want to go and what we are willing to go through to get there. I do not believe that death is the end of the road, not for your brother or mine, for you or me. -Sandy

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:55:32 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Generalizations hit nerves, Sandy. Message:

I understand what you are saying re schizophrenia leading to increased perception (I have read Bobby Manrodt's site, and you probably have too). However, I don't think you can say that ALL people diagnozed as schizophrenics feel this way, nor can you say that you have much, if any, experience of how a schizophrenic might feel (I don't accept a diagnosis by a 1970's army doctor after one interview as being valid! At ALL!). I don't claim to be any kind of expert on schizophrenia, but I know it can be an extremely painful condition, and it is also very painful to have a friend or family member go through it. It's not as simple as 'we all face duality'. I know you mean well, but saying the things you said above can be hurtful - I hope you can see that. It would be like if I told you your brother died of AIDS because he 'manifested it in his life because of negative thinking' (I don't know, maybe you believe that!?) Please try and understand this.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:13:08 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Katie H. Subject: Sorry... Message:

I will use less words with more specific purpose. Sandy

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:17:00 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Thanks, Sandy Message:

I appreciate it. Although we don't have any schizophrenics in my family, we do have half of the other DSM diagnoses, not to mention REAL brain damage (not the kind people joke about on here, which always bothers me), and things like that. I tend to not comment because I know I'll just get accused of being too PC, but I thought you would understand.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:23:18 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Katie H Subject: He doesn't mean it Message:

Katie, Having thought Sandy was sincere, and possibly rational, in his struggle to come to terms with his attachment to Maharaji and meditation, I no longer believe that. His comments about schizophrenia sound to me as callous as any we've read on this forum. John.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:27:49 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: JHB Subject: He doesn't mean it Message:

John, I understand where Sandy is coming from re schizophrenia, because some people DO believe that schizophrenics are capable of an increased (and maybe 'higher') awareness. There is a book called 'The Eden Express' by Mark Vonnegut (Kurt Vonnegut's son) that I liked very much, in which he details his personal experiences with schizophrenia - you may want to read it although it is hard to find. I don't believe Sandy meant to be insensitive, and I doubt if he will make the same kind of statements again. JMHO, as always (and I am really sorry about your brother, John - that is a tough thing to live with). Katie

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:35:26 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: JHB Subject: One minute you dispair for me and the next one you Message:

call me a waste of time. No hard feelings, but if we don't connect, why do you feel the need to blame me for the gap? I'm sorry you feel that way, but don't really see what could make it better at this point. Sandy

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:45:06 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Sandy Subject: The two are the same... Message:

Having despaired for you, I have now given up. Of course you are to blame for the gap for your inability to think clearly. You will never escape from your sloppy thinking. Even if you renounce Maharaji, you'll connect to some other new age nonsense, but there will be no website to help you escape from that. Goodbye, John.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:51:47 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: JHB Subject: Your eternal judgement of me is not the Law. Message:

Thank God. No hard feelings. Sandy

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:22:52 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Sandy, you are a waste of time Message:

and I shall not waste my time again with you. But if you want to know how to deal with your doubts about Maharaji, then read Jim Sander's posts. John.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:07:43 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: And how about THIS part, Patrick W.? Message:

My understanding and experience of schizophrenia is very similar to the dark night of the soul as described in many old writings. Everyone does not survive it. My condolences about your brother. I lost a brother too, to AIDS, which was planted in the population by governments, mine among them. I know how it feels to lose someone you love because of an injustice. -Sandy Your sentiments exactly, Patrick? Sorry, just curious. See, to me Sandy is a new age clown. Instead of playing with balloons, he uses words. What's your opinion of the above 'sentiments'?

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 19:52:00 (GMT) From: Patrick Wilson Email: None To: Jim Subject: And how about THIS part, Patrick W.? Message:

Sandy wrote: my understanding and experience of schizophrenia is very similar to the dark night of the soul as described in many old writings. Everyone does not survive it. My condolences about your brother. I lost a brother too, to AIDS, which was planted in the population by governments, mine among them. I know how it feels to lose someone you love because of an injustice. -Sandy Jim gently queried : Your sentiments exactly, Patrick? Sorry, just curious. See, to me Sandy is a new age clown. Instead of playing with balloons, he uses words. What's your opinion of the above 'sentiments'? Well I too have a brother who, although he will not see a doctor, is labelled by some as schizophrenic. They may well be right. 'The dark night of the soul'? Yes, resoundingly that would fit the episodes of confusion that he has expressed -and me too as a matter of fact. As an earnest teenager I suffered what could only be described as awful 'dark night of the soul' in fact I remeber calling it that -and I imagine that it was precisely this same sort of agonizing confusion that my brother didn't so well come out of. Certainly there is a chemical side to schizophrenia that makes certain people much more susceptible to this stuff. I think there are degress of schizophrenia just as it can be episodic. I have no truck with sandy about his observation in this case. Regarding the governement starting the aids epidemic I have absolutely no idea whatsoever. I admit that it sounds most implausible but you never know! I can't see that Sandy deserves to be be branded as a 'New Age Clown' for expressing himself in this way. Your trial has finished -maybe you need to chill out. I need to go and sing the kids to sleep. They have some wonderful New Age fantasies and ideas -age 3 and 5! Very innocent and beautiful -no harm at all! Sorry to hear about your brother Sandy -that's terrible.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:58:30 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: And how about THIS part, Patrick W.? Message:

Well I too have a brother who, although he will not see a doctor, is labelled by some as schizophrenic. They may well be right. 'The dark night of the soul'? Yes, resoundingly that would fit the episodes of confusion that he has expressed -and me too as a matter of fact. As an earnest teenager I suffered what could only be described as awful 'dark night of the soul' in fact I remeber calling it that -and I imagine that it was precisely this same sort of agonizing confusion that my brother didn't so well come out of. Certainly there is a chemical side to schizophrenia that makes certain people much more susceptible to this stuff. I think there are degress of schizophrenia just as it can be episodic. I have no truck with sandy about his observation in this case. Really? That's interesting. The Dark Night of the Soul is a classic religious mind fuck which, as a metaphor, just has to have had literally deadly consequences for religious 'seeker's and obsessed fanatics since it was written. It's an endorsement of and recipe book for spiritual S & M which, though possibly titillating, must be disastrous in the wrong hands. What are the 'wrong hands'? Anyone's who might take it seriously. But then again maybe I'm wrong. Here's a link to the entire book. Care to find me a single part that 'precisely' describes your brother's plight?: Dark Night of the Soul (Here's the URL if the link doesn't work: http://www.karmel.at/ics/john/dn.html) Regarding the governement starting the aids epidemic I have absolutely no idea whatsoever. I admit that it sounds most implausible but you never know! No idea whatsoever? You never know? Okay, how about this one: Tony Blair is a KGB agent. Same thing? Absoletely no idea? Never know? I can't see that Sandy deserves to be be branded as a 'New Age Clown' for expressing himself in this way. Your trial has finished -maybe you need to chill out. It hasn't finished. Closing arguments Monday. I'm just getting going. I need to go and sing the kids to sleep. They have some wonderful New Age fantasies and ideas -age 3 and 5! Very innocent and beautiful -no harm at all! Yes, that's a nice age for it all. How old are you and Sandy by the way?

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:15:02 (GMT) From: Donna Bailey Nurse Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'I really can't stand it when people sneer.' Message:

'I really can't stand it when people sneer. It's so underhanded. I'm ashamed when I cave in to sneering myself, since excellent people never do it. 'People only sneer when they think they can get away with it; when the person under attack strikes them as vulnerable in some way. In fact, they would not do it at all with the tacit approval of the crowd - their crowd. 'But sneering ought not to be dismissed as a character flaw. It is a weapon intended to inflict serious harm on the recipient, causing them to question their talent, their essence, their value. It's an emotional lynching.'

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:06:14 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Subject: And how about THIS part and THIS part and THIS par Message:

Keep on digging until you hit a pipe. You'll get one if you keep trying. The experience that has been called the dark night of the soul existed before there were religions to mind fuck anyone. It is a mind fuck, but it is a mind fuck that occurs naturally inside someone who finds themselves conflicted with two levels of existence, also called in some cases schizophrenia by the medical community which turns a very tidy profit in goods and services. Like many other diseases, if the cure was made known, whether chemical or counseling, the corporate drug pushers would go out of business. I could not connect with the link to the book entitled The Dark Night of the Soul and I don't know if it accurately explains what the actual experience is, or if the author just used that phrase to push the book. I will be 52 next week in answer to youor other question. Sandy

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:49:04 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Oh, it's 'Once Upon a Time' time, huh? Message:

The experience that has been called the dark night of the soul existed before there were religions to mind fuck anyone. Wrong. The phrase comes from a treatise by St. John of the Cross, a 16th Century Spanish monk. You don't know what you're talking about. It is a mind fuck, but it is a mind fuck that occurs naturally inside someone who finds themselves conflicted with two levels of existence, also called in some cases schizophrenia by the medical community which turns a very tidy profit in goods and services. This is typical you blowing new age smoke all over the place. You REALLY don't know what you're talking about. Like many other diseases, if the cure was made known, whether chemical or counseling, the corporate drug pushers would go out of business. I could not connect with the link to the book entitled The Dark Night of the Soul and I don't know if it accurately explains what the actual experience is, or if the author just used that phrase to push the book. You're a pompous idiot.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:04:44 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Subject: I refer you to Donna Bailey Nurse's post above, Message:

who nailed you in a nutshell better than I have been able to do since I have known you, about two years. No, Jim, you are the pompous idiot. I may or may not be following the right teacher, but you are the pompous idiot. One thing has nothing to do with the other. No more time for your Saturday night rumble. Better make other plans. Saint John of the Cross may have put words around it and gave it a name, but the experience was around way before. I suppose gravity did not exist until Newton wrote about it, and same goes for inertia, jet propulsion. Do you suppose that schizophrenia did not exist until someone gave it a name and a file folder too? How about sneering assholes like you who call people idiots? Do you think they did not exist until the words 'sneering' and 'asshole' were accepted into your precious Oxford? Sandy, who may be an idiot for even trying to connect with YOU Sandy

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:15:55 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Sandy Subject: John of the Cross wrote Dark Night of the Soul Message:

AFTER he had visions of god. The visions of light, music, nectar etc that he had came about always after hours of self-flagellation (whipping himself with a small cat-o-nine-tails as was common among monks of the time and is still done ritually in certain orders) and fasting and kneeling with his arms raised horizontally. It was conjectured by Aldous Huxley that these mystical visions were the result of histamines pouring into the bloodstream as a result of the inflammation from the damage done to the skin by the whip. The important thing about John's dark night of the soul is that it came about because he could not revisit the visions of god simply through prayer and faith. He wrote the book as correspondence with Theresa of Avila who was another Catholic holy roller. Meanwhile outside the monastery walls the Spanish Inquisition was in full swing and Jews were being barbecued by the thousand. More navel gazing and fiddling while Rome burned heretics.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:22:34 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: No, no, no Pat -- it was about Schizophrenia Message:

See, Once Upon a Time, before there were words, back when anything was anything and don't forget the heart, back before the big multi-level national corporations and evil medical establishment, back before there were lawyers or dictionaries, tv or history books, there was a wise man. Well, to be a little more accurate, it is said that there was a wise man. And he really knew shit, believe me he did. You know how Sandy kind of knows things? Well this guy knew them even more. Anyway, it is said that the wise man said .....

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 09:26:26 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jim Subject: What's the bet Jim and Sandy both like rock n roll Message:

''Words, words, words! I'm so sick of words! I get words all day through; First from him, Now from you! Is that all you blighters can do?'' So sings poor inarticulate Eliza in ''My Fair Lady.'' Jim, you're a saint. I've said it before and I'll say it again: you are a soto zen master. In that discipline it is said: ''Patience is the only virtue and perseverance the highest nirvana.'' Sandy is a bhakta (truth is ecstasy.) Apples and oranges. Good luck and have fun guys but I feel I must extricate myself from this debate because I am biased on the side of words in this medium.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:12:09 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Ha ha ha Message:

Sandy, There are three basic reactions to your stupid posts here: 1) Those of nice people using you for practise. If they can be nice to poor Sandy, pat him on the head a bit or something, they feel nice. That's why they're nice. 2) Those of the odd new-ager who thinks you've actually got something to say. 3) Those who soon realize that you're a complete waste of time and essentially only worth kicking around for entertainment's sake.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:55:09 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Subject: One other kind of person is here Message:

And then there is one other kind of person, the kind who thinks he sits above all the rest of us and categorizes us all and puts us in little cigar boxes with pins through us and sticks labels on our boxes with words that put arbitrary limits on our abilities and functions...and of that kind of person there only seems to be one here present, thank God, and that is....you. Pride goes before a fall. I suggest you strap a mattress to you front and back because you are falling, man. It's just a matter of when. No, this is not a threat. It is a law. I have nothing to do with it. You will have done it to yourself when it happens.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:21:21 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: ANOTHER curse, Sandy? Message:

Pride goes before a fall. I suggest you strap a mattress to you front and back because you are falling, man. It's just a matter of when. No, this is not a threat. It is a law. I have nothing to do with it. You will have done it to yourself when it happens. You sure about this, bud? I mean, don't forget, you're the guy who still thinks Maharaji might be God. So I need to know -- are you sure about the 'law' like this? Let me ask you this. Are you at least as sure as you are about schizophrenia and AIDs? Funny, funny, funNY!

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:56:15 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Subject: Nothing so magical as a curse Message:

Pride goes before a fall. I suggest you strap a mattress to you front and back because you are falling, man. It's just a matter of when. No, this is not a threat. It is a law. I have nothing to do with it. You will have done it to yourself when it happens. -Sandy You sure about this, bud? I mean, don't forget, you're the guy who still thinks Maharaji might be God. So I need to know -- are you sure about the 'law' like this? -Jim Yeah, Jim, I am sure and I'm also sure I'm not your 'bud'. We all have our blind spots. You think you have a corner on seeing them in others and you yourself are fucking invisible or something? Yeah, I am sure of the fact that you are one proud motherfucker and you will eventually have to pay the price for it. Very sure. -Sandy Let me ask you this. Are you at least as sure as you are about schizophrenia and AIDs? Funny, funny, funNY! -Jim What? No Dawkins or Oxford reference? Just you, standing there on your own, making a funny? Better stick to your references, because you have no sense of humor other than your own self loving bullshit. And don't quit your day job, because all you know how to do is argue. You don't know how to just talk and listen. Yeah, better keep your day job.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 13:29:20 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Sandy Subject: This is why you Message:

Why me? you ask. That's funny. It's not a give-and-take with you. You can dish it out but you can't take it. You think being an ex-premie gives you the corner on all truth. You are every bit as much of a tripper as the most yahoo premie, only in reverse. That's why you. Capice?

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 20:44:52 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Hey, that's not fair Message:

You say I can dish it out but can't take it. Don't know what gives you that idea. The point is dialogue, Sandy. You have a substantive point to make, I'll deal with it. In fact, I do taht with you all the time. I tell you that, substance-wise, you're dreaming. It's all on-topic and I'm not afraid to discuss any of it with you. A 'yahoo premie' wouldn't do that. That's the difference. Now you, on the other hand, say all sorts of things that look a little murky held up the light. When confronted with this, you bristle, get all melodramatic, woe-is-me-like and stuff like that. It's you who can't really follow through, then, isn't it? Really, think of all the new-age or spiritual or specifically premie-type things you've said that you've demurred discussing rthrough to their logical ends. Lots, dude. Lots. So don't go blaming me for your own paralysis. That's simply not fair. P.S. If this were in person we'd probably not have to place as much emphasis as we do on the verbal exchange. But it isn't in person and words are all we've got. It heightens the scrutiny. Too bad for you? No, your good fortune!

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:39:22 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey, what's not fair Message:

Jim, You may feel free to look back on this thread and see how you systematically demeaned, parried, insulted, parrried, got busted by Ms. Nurse, demeaned, and parried some more. The primary topic here is overshadowed often in our dialog by your utter inability to remain peaceful while trying to talk to someone who has not declared as an ex-premie. Too bad. And as for your constant one-upmanship games, I understand where that comes from too. You are paid to not only win arguments, but to dismantle the oppostion. It must be very hard if not impossible, as evidenced by your behavior here towards me and others (premie and ex-premie, and up until quite recently, women were girls...something you should have had together a long time ago, being an officer of the court), to shift gears and be able to communicate on a less adversarial and predatory basis. You can still disagree and present all your sterling arguments, but presentation is alot, Jim. You should know this as an attorney better than most. So what's more important to you, initiating a bloody verbal battle in which you can exercise all your second nature skills that you do daily or getting your point across in a relatable way without once asking, 'you're kidding, right?' and all the crap that comes with it compliments of the house? Sandy

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:59:53 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Sorry, dude, that doesn't fly Message:

It's sad to see how spooked you are by straight-forward argument. Like, it really freaks you out, doesn't it? Or is saying 'doesn't it?' a litle close to the line too? Unlike John, I guess, I don't think for a second that you're not that smart. Indeed, I think you're smart. How smart? I dunno. Smart enough, I guess. So why is it you think I could even come close to 'dismantl[ing] the opposition' arguing with you? Isn't it simply because you know you don't have anything close to a tenable position. Isn't that really the problem: you're trying to blame me for the inherent weakness of your thinking? Think about it because, if you ask me, no I'm not kidding. Sandy, you're just not able to build a good enough case about me being abusive. Sorry, it just won't fly. And if I'm abusive what do you say to all the others who also think that you're just spinning your wheels needlessly? What about them, huh? (Sorry about the 'huh', huh?)

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 15:15:55 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Subject: Not in your heavy gravity world it doesn't Message:

It's sad to see how spooked you are by straight-forward argument. Like, it really freaks you out, doesn't it? Or is saying 'doesn't it?' -Jim Have you considered running for political office in your area? You can sidestep questions and issues with the best of them and turn the thing around. Very good. I am not spooked or freaked out, although I know you would be thrilled if I were. -Sandy Unlike John, I guess, I don't think for a second that you're not that smart. Indeed, I think you're smart. How smart? I dunno. Smart enough, I guess. -Jim Right. One post you tell me I'm an idiot and the next post you say I'm smart. Good thing I don't read you in the morning like a horoscope or I'd be really confused. -Sandy So why is it you think I could even come close to 'dismantl[ing] the opposition' arguing with you? Isn't it simply because you know you don't have anything close to a tenable position. Isn't that really the problem: you're trying to blame me for the inherent weakness of your thinking? Think about it because, if you ask me, no I'm not kidding. -Jim I don't think you could dismantle the opposition...but I have to endure your tireless efforts to do same, like I would some horny little dog trying to hump my leg at someone's house until I would shake it off me, because it's master allows it to do it to guests. -Sandy Sandy, you're just not able to build a good enough case about me being abusive. Sorry, it just won't fly. And if I'm abusive what do you say to all the others who also think that you're just spinning your wheels needlessly? What about them, huh? (Sorry about the 'huh', huh?) -Jim I don't have to 'build a case' (can't let go of the shoptalk, can you?) of your abuse. It's all documented right here for anyone who wants to look it up. And for all those folks here, premie and ex-premie, who have had to put up with your egotisical petulence and who ever felt the sting of your rude I'm-smarter-than-you-and-I-have-a-better-handle-than-you attitude, they never forgot the feeling. No case necessary to build. I figure that many ex-premies treat you like the neighborhood cop who is also an abuser, but since he does some good in the neighborhood, his shit is tolerated. As for the rest of what you said, yes, I am spinning my wheels a bit AND you are an abuser. Two spearate issues, independent of each other. -Sandy

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:09:11 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Sandy, I'll ask you again: what about the others? Message:

You avoided the question: what do you say to all the other people here who also think you're spinning your wheels needlessly? You conceded that you're spinning your wheels. What about 'needlessly'? THAT's the opinion many here share about you. What do you say to that? It's not a 'Jim' issue, it's a 'Sandy' issue, isn't it?

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 16:54:53 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, I will ask you again: What about the others? Message:

What about all the other people who in one way or another right here on this very site have expressed the fact that you are a heavy-handed and abusive friend as well as adversary? The pot calls the kettle black. Ha. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Keep your own doorstep clean. Soto zen master, boy that changed your hat size fast, eh?

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 23:59:06 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: So you won't answer, huh? Message:

How surprising!

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:32:28 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Why me? Message:

Sandy, How many people in this thread alone do you see throwing their hands up in despair, frsutrated at your stubborn refusal to give up the bullshit already? It's got nothing to do with me, Sandy. I'm not the one who bitches about how painful it all is, the confusion and everything. That's you, fella. I'm okay. I left the cult years ago. And no, I don't need some poor, confused cult member giving me advice about how the world works, let alone the cosmos. Like I said last week, I'd have to be a total idiot to look to someone like you for that kind of help. Why you still think this entire universe might be the dream-toy of a fat little Indian guru, don't you?

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:44:50 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Jim and SHP Subject: I knew it !!! Tony Blair is a KBG agent !!! Message:

I can smell a conspiracy a mile away. Sandy, Sorry to hear about your brother. Had you mentioned it earlier? None of my business, but do you know if your brother might have received a Hep B vaccine in the late seventies and the early eighties? Was he living in the NYC area, Manhattan perhaps? This begs the obvious question and you needn't feel you have to answer.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:13:42 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: gErRy Subject: Read it and weep for real Message:

I can smell a conspiracy a mile away. Sandy, Sorry to hear about your brother. Had you mentioned it earlier? None of my business, but do you know if your brother might have received a Hep B vaccine in the late seventies and the early eighties? Was he living in the NYC area, Manhattan perhaps? This begs the obvious question and you needn't feel you have to answer. -gErRy gErRy, I just got such a cramp from capitalizing every other letter in your name...what's up with that? Enough with the comic relief... No, I do not know if he got a Hep B vaccine in the late 70's or the early 80's but I might be able to find out. Yes, he lived in the NYC area, Manhatten near Chelsea. He passed in '89 and I am cool talking about it. What is up with the Hep B thing? OK, gErRy, now pour yourself a stiff one and click on www.boydgraves.com Then get back to me. Sandy

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:32:08 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: gErRy Subject: son of a bitch!!! not you, gErRy... Message:

I just scanned through the www.boydgraves.com stuff myself to refamiliarize myself with the facts, and in the section called timeline, I discovered a paragraph that begins 'In 1977...' and goes on to discuss the 'experimental Hep B vaccine' laced with AIDS that was loosed on Manhatten to thin out the gays, while at about the same time on the other side of the world in Africa the same thing was happening, only there the AIDS virus was included in the smallpox vaccine, I think it was. Please tell me anything else you may know about this. Thanks. Sandy

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:03:42 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Sandy Subject: You're lost in space mate or maybe just ..... Message:

....lost in the Time of Lies. So who are these people who introduced the aids virus into the smallpox jabs & to what end ? Who wanted to 'thin out the gays ' , & why ? You won't accept the plain fact that you've been conned by a 'master' at the game , but you're willing to buy into science fiction explanations of the real world . Seems to me there's a connection.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:06:57 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: Check out www.boydgraves.com (nt) Message:

asgj;r

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:28:48 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Sandy Subject: I 've checked it out and it's shite ..... Message:

...c'mon man , you've got to spend $50 a hit just to get to the good bits . I'm coming to the conclusion that you're just taking the piss.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:08:07 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Sandy Subject: son of a bitch!!! not you, gErRy... Message:

You pretty much got the picture. check out Jan 25 and Feb 22

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:30:09 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Conscientious Objection Message:

Sandy, you do it all at your own speed bro. Took me 25 years and a lot of reflection after coming to the forum 4 years ago. And I'm still churning up stuff.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:25:10 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Everyone Subject: PS Message:

No need for chainmail scuba No need to fear a fin No need for fear in any way My shelter is within Let's go past the fact that all the shit happened that happened. Let's say that among human beings, this sort of shit is inevitable, just for the sake of this conversation. What the question is now is why the hell are people being left behind in the wake of EV politcs and political correctness? Maharaji said he was unconventional. The most unconventional thing he could do in this presently hellish world would be to open up and show some compassion and care - dispense some of that Divine Love - on those here who have been obviously wronged by a system or set of systems that he presides over in one way onr another with absolute power if he chooses to use it. In Buddhism, there is the little boat 'hinayana' and the big boat 'mahayana' style. The little boat way is take your sheet and go get high on meditation and don't pay any attention to the cries of your brothers and sisters. The big boat way is to accept that the journey ain't over until everyone gets there. I really thought all these years that the boat Maharaji always referred to - the ocean liner that we were all getting on - was the mahayana manifested in 3D. Now that some have been virtually thrown, scared or chased overboard by the very Captain's shipmates, one might ask onesself: Why in the hell can't or won't the Captain stop his own ship long enough to sincerely try to pick up those who went overboard not on their own volition, but forced overboard by sunstruck ship's officers?

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:03:13 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Sandy, I know you don't like me an won't read this Message:

I'm saying it mostly as coda to this thread and mostly for the benefit of anyone reading your stuff for the first time. Jim has said you are a new age clown and yes, to me you do come off a bit like that, but I live in a new age city and have learned to agree to disagree otherwise I would have become a Republican or worse in reaction to what I prefer to call new age ''having your cake and eating it'' syndrome. To me you are more like a nouveau riche wordsmith. You've got all the words but they are new to you and you use them outside of their historical and literary context. Definitely not an ''old money'' wordsmith. Old money uses it's cash sparingly and astutely while the nouveau riche (like Rev Moonbeam) squander it and use it to show off. ''Old money'' wordsmiths use words in a similar way. The big problem that I see is that you have not made a real break for freedom and independence of thought because you still have a rope around your waist which is tied to a rock of belief that Rev Rawat is somehow superhuman or at least possessed of some sort of magical juice. With that rope around you, no matter how hard you run, it will be in circles and will simply wrap you tighter around the rock. I won't criticize because, as I have told you before, it took me a long time to untie that rope from my own waist.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 21:03:49 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: I'm glad you said that, Pat Message:

Even though Sandy hasn't let go yet, he is discussing it. It isn't easy to get out , depending on what you put into it. As you said, it took you a while. When I first came to this site, four years ago, I discovered that I had not let go either. My eyes were opened completely and it's all gone now (I think) thanks to Jim, JHB and the others. I hope that Sandy will break his mind free, but at least he is still willing to talk about it (without attacking anyone)

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 23:52:03 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: sean Subject: You can't think straight when you're buying into Message:

Maharajist concepts. The whole cult-think is so illogical that, until that emotional tie to Rev Moontits is broken, there will always a part of the mind that is clouded and unable to be logical. I also think Sandy is trying too hard to be a philosopher. He needs to really exercise discipline and only speak about facts not concepts. But unfortunately new age thinking is all about unprovable warm-fuzzy concepts. At least Sandy hasn't started talking about ascended masters and UFOs. Reading decent literature also helps and I think Sandy might benefit from reading some western philosophers from Plato on but it's probably too dry. I wish he would because it would let him see that Jim is teasing him and not attacking him.

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 01:01:49 (GMT) From: Sean Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: You can't think straight when you're buying into Message:

Exactly Pat. The clarity comes as you move away. The closer you are the less clearly you can see and think. I definitely agree about the literature, but I might just be prejudiced. Seems to me good lit does promote brain growth. The new age stuff is such fuzzy headed stuff it is worthless.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 21:35:04 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: sean Subject: But... Message:

...Sandy has spent the last year or so attacking Jim. Ok, Jim can be brutal (but not so much now), but he's honest and straight. Sandy, instead of attacking Jim, try to answer his points one by one. Because from where I'm reading, he's making an awful lot of sense. John.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:06:09 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: JHB Subject: But... Message:

I've been gone for awhile, so I missed Sandy's entrance onto the stage. Jim forces sandy and the rest of us to deal with issues we might otherwise let slide, and I like that. Jim helped me a lot. But I do think I see some progress in Sandy. Little things, yes, but that is progress. He may never let go completely, but you guys can keep on him. That he is even here discussing this says something. Jim might think he has ulterior motives. I don't know, but I'm glad for the dialogue.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:12:37 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: sean Subject: But... Message:

Sean, I don't think Sandy has any ulterior motives. Couldn't imagine what they'd be, really. And I concede that he's not in the same place he was two years ago. But I do lose patience with his new age stubbornness. That irks me.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:28:18 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: Jim Subject: Scientology Message:

Jim, what's your thinking on S's recent legal victories, particularly against slash/dot? Looks like EV could try the same kinds of attacks. Our laws in the US could support them, maybe not Canada.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:27:00 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Jim Subject: I think he's stuck in the mud.... Message:

....and in April in Latvia we have a lot of that. Sandy doesn't seem to me to be very intelligent. In general, the exes posting here seem to have high IQs and even when they don't understand something, they have the intelligence to recognise that. I think Sandy is out of his depth, and needs to have the reassurance of a belief system, which is why I told him that even if he rejects M he'll adopt some other new age belief system. John who turned Mensa down

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:53:33 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: JHB Subject: Intellectually snobbery and Mensa Message:

You reminded me of a night in Miami when I saw two obviously mentally challenged people come into the hall on Biscayne Boulevard. As they listened to satsang, I saw tears flow freely down their cheeks as they listened to person after person at the mic affirm the potential of every human being for fulfillment and happiness in their lives, despite any physical or mental impairments. JHB, your own arrogant words here about IQ and Mensa are the first things here on the ex site that have actually made me lean toward Maharaji. Mensa had a movement to kill off old people, real bright. Maybe you are smart if you did not join them. Another cult, one that worships the brain. Sandy

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 05:35:17 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Intellectually snobbery and Mensa Message:

Sandy, The use some of your intelligence then, cos sure as hell you haven't been using it so far. John.

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 03:08:50 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Intellectually snobbery and Mensa Message:

Don't go there girlfriend. John's words are irrelevant to the M issue. I've heard much worse and still hear much worse from active premos.

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 15:20:39 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: sean Subject: Intellectually snobbery and Mensa Message:

1) Who you calling 'girlfriend'? I'm a guy. 2) What stuff did you hear...??

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 18:38:29 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Intellectually snobbery and Mensa Message:

I heard that on TV and since I always try to be a hip with it kind o guy, I figured I should use some of the modern lingo. Yo!

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:45:29 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: JHB Subject: Is 135 good enough for you? (nt) Message:

abcdefg

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:52:58 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Red 34, Red 34, 135 hut hut Message:

Go out for a buttonhook.

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 02:55:32 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: sean Subject: Yeah, dat's da ticket Message:

Left or right?

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 03:05:11 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Always left, thats my motto! (nt) Message:

LEFT

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Date: Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 01:24:58 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: JHB Subject: I think he's stuck in the mud.... Message:

Tough love, huh. I hope being free is not unavailable to the less endowed. So what was that Mensa chick wanting you to do?

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:19:44 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: Jim Subject: New Age blechs Message:

I can't stand that blather either. Takes a while to break through it though. When I lived in the Twin Cities all my friends in St Paul were commies and my friends in Mpls were new agers (most of em went traipsing off after Rajneesh). Of course they hated each other. But seriously, if we could just sit down with some crystals I think everything would be OK.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 21:29:36 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: sean Subject: You mean I did something good? Message:

I'm flabberghasted! John.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 22:12:11 (GMT) From: sean Email: None To: JHB Subject: Shocking aint it! Message:

I've been reading your posts a long time. You see bs and you jump on it and you're not anonymous. I appreciate that a lot.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:22:13 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: good post Pat,perfect description of the situation Message:

Sandy is trying to have his cake and eat it and I as I stated in a post above have it both ways. Sandy, get out of the water, Shed the chainmail, untie the rope and run like hell. There is no oceanliner, Maharaji is not the captain, he is not even on board the boat you are in. He sails his own 7m yacht and you are not invited or welcome onboard that vessel. get over it ....

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 23:16:50 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Pat, I don't dislike you and I did read this Message:

To be brief, thank you for caring. I will take what you said into serious consideration. Sandy

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:45:29 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Sandy Subject: You still aren't sure????? Message:

Sandy, I am stunned that there is still confusion for you. You must have really invested alot into your thoughts and dreams about Maharaji. You're having a hard time with this I know. So maybe it's better that you don't beat up on yourself about it. It's just that....I can't see loving someone who doesn't give a shit about me or my welfare . M doesn't. What would it take for you to realize that he isn't God, has no connection to God, and never did have any connection to God? You surrender on this cellular level to something deep inside of you, in your mind and body that you have lovingly, longingly called 'Maharaji' all these years. That surrender only works when you invoke the name of Maharaji, you say? That's because you've been conditioned that way, you were painted into a corner during the receiving knowledge process that everything in your being would call out to M. It's just conditioning that he's your last refuge. He's not. There is alot of life after M, let me tell ya. Love Helen

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 03:00:16 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Helen Subject: Helen Message:

Thanks for saying hello. I gotta go now. Sandy

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 13:56:14 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I'm Off ( for quite a while);)) Message:

No, not flying off to some exotic location for two weeks like Mike and Marsha but I'm off all the same. At this stage, I've said all I've got to say and listened to all I need to hear. Besides having to do a lot of stuff completely unrelated to this venerable forum (and such stuff is at a crucial stage demanding much more time and focus) I also feel I have to take stock of everything I've learned here. Each of us, ultimately, has to come to terms with the fact that we are no longer premies. Maybe some have done so more than others. No matter. In my case, I don't want to become a bible thumper, so to speak, nor do I want to blow hot and cold endlessly repeating what I've already said. I need time to examine myself deeply and act upon whatever I learn in the process. I feel that can be best accomplished off the forum rather than on. I'm not yet ready to become a genuine volunteer within the forum nor am I ready or willing to take a more proactive stance beyond the forum So what are the options? Spouting off ad nauseum? No thanks. Also I've noticed I've been spending hours on end reading and posting and it's getting like I'm using it as if it's a crutch or a plaything. It has more value than that. So I don't want to demean it. I'm only speaking for myself here of course. It's not meant as a criticism of anyone's preferred use of the forum This is not one of those Sir Dave or P Conlon posts ( bless 'em) whereby I'll be posting again a few threads up ! I'll be gone for quite a while. Days? No chance. Weeks? Tiny tiny possibility. Months? Possibly. Years? Sheesh, I hope not. Will anything like this be needed in years hence? We'll see. I also want to devote some serious time to my personal development. I won't say 'spiritual' development nor use any 'new age ' type tag .I think life is beautiful. I'm glad I'm here. But in all honesty I think when I die , when my brain ceases to function then I will indeed be dead and gone .It'd be interesting and (hopefully!) enjoyable to be proved otherwise but I'm not banking on it. At any rate, whatever time I have left I reckon I may as well utilise it to the best of my ability. With my mind and heart sincere and clear. Ha, and continue as a spaced out hedonist no doubt! As for everyone here .The old timers, fresh faces and PAMS. I've pretty much appreciated the lot of you. I genuinely have. I also hope to meet up with many of you dudes some time in the future. As for my premie friends and acquaintances …if any have lurked here. Howdy! Many of the acquaintances will maybe be appalled and disgusted with some of the stuff I've said. Most, if not all, my friends will still be my friends. No problem. As for the so called 'trolls'…well I was in the forefront of exposing the sham called 'Cerise' Yet the guy who IS Cerise( dear ole Salams cyber girlfriend!) is a human being like the rest of us suckers. Funnily enough I wish him and all other trolls well. I wish they'd read this site, especially the nuts & bolts section and the contributions of the PAMS. They've lived around that 'myth' Maharaji. I hope they think about what they read . Think about what the ' Master 'has said and done. And weigh it up dispassionately. As for Prem Pal Singh Rawat and his family ? My former Lord and Master? Actually I'm genuinely sad it's turned out like this. I really I am. It could have been so beautiful huh? Many is the time I thought it was so beautiful. But there's no turning back now is there? What's done is done. What's said is said. As we all have the potential to change I hope you and your family change. I hope you take steps to remove the blindfolds from your followers and genuinely appease and compensate your….what word should I use?…..the one closest to the truth…..Victims, no less. So to sum up dear ole ex's, premies, trolls and Rawats……I hate none of you . I hate what the trolls and Rawats espouse and manifest. My email is in the white pages and some of you have it already. Whoever wants to drop me a line every so often please feel free. It's not my default email but I check it pretty often. If there's a time lag in my response….apologies in advance…..I'll reply as soon as I genuinely can. So fellow forumites ….as I said I'll be back further on down the line and hopefully meet up with some of you in the flesh one day. Cheers Dermot.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 18:45:04 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Group hug! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 00:35:47 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Bon Voyage friend ( come back soon );)) nt Message:

d

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:57:10 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: patrick@dorrityp.freeserve.co.uk To: Dermot Subject: Good Luck ! I'll buy you a pint if ..... Message:

....you ever find yourself in Stratford - upon - Avon . I agree with you 100% , but unfortunately have an addictive personality . keep well.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:26:44 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Bye, Dermot.... Message:

I'll miss you here, but it's natural to step back and process all the stuff. It's actually necessary, IMO. This is an incubator of ex-cult members--intense! Besides, some days I open the board, skim through the threads, and just can't do it. I have appreciated your passion and compassion. Enjoy the time off...come back to visit. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:46:06 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Dermot - slightly OT Message:

Come Back Dermot - you can't leave me here. I've got NO EARTH either !!! No, but seriously, have a good time in wotever you do and Email me some time Love Moldy (PS - feel a shmuck for writing this as everyone else I've written a fond farewell to just comes back the next day!!)

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:32:55 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Dermot Subject: I'm Off ( for quite a while);)) Message:

Hi Dermot, and bye for now! I have found in my short lifetime as an ex that much as I appreciate the support of this forum, there are times when I need to take a break from it to get on with other things. Sometimes I just need some time on my own to sort out my own impressions. So, I come and go, I think most people do. There are a few heroes who manage to maintain a consistent presence, and hats off to them! I don't think I'll ever be able to do that, Already I'm becoming repetitive! So have a good break, and come back refreshed. Hope to see you soon. Kelly

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:03:36 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Who's book-maker? Odds? I bet 50 dollars Message:

Dermot, have a very happy birthday which seems to be coming up soon. I watched you burn the candle at both ends here in the past week and the blaze was pretty spectacular. I'm sorry to see you go and hope that you'll be back soon with new inspiration.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:32:52 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Are you sure? Message:

Dermot, If you find continued posting would be nauseating to yourself, nevermind us, than yeah, take some time off until you feel the spirit begin to move you again. But don't be so sure you'll be gone for 'quite awhile'. You might find you have something you want to say a day from now, or an hour, or even a minute. If that's the case feel free. I've found that people who swear off the forum come back soon enough. The best option is to just post when you feel like it, or don't if you feel that way about it. But these long term convictions? I don't think it works that way. On the other hand, if your work is suffering because of it, yeah, some restraint is in order.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:35:53 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Dermot Subject: I'm Off ( for quite a while);)) Message:

OK, be cool and 'look on the bright side of life'. - Monty Postie

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:13:56 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Dermot Subject: I'm Off ( for quite a while);)) Message:

Hi Dermot, (love the sound of your name in Irish). I understand the need to take a brake and process your stuff and not be absorved by the forum and also I'd like to say that you'll be missed. I've enjoyed reading your posts. Thanks. Wish you the best. Mercedes

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 16:07:41 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Dermot Subject: I'm Off ( for quite a while);)) Message:

nor do I want to blow hot and cold endlessly repeating what I've already said oh do I relate to that one, and often swonder how anything new ever comes out of my fingertips in this place. It's odd for me to be thought of as an old timer but I started posting here in Jam 1998 so I guess I am. It's been refreshing to have you here, I've really enjoyed it. Now get to work. L, Selene

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 15:48:51 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Hey Dermot Message:

Take care - I understand if you need to take a break, but I do want you to know that like your posts even if I don't always agree with them. You are very honest, and you're also willing to listen to other people here and re-consider some of your ideas. I respect and appreciate that very much. Plus you are a nice guy :). I liked what you said about the trolls too - I feel the same way. I think some of these people need help way beyond anything that can be provided on this forum and site, though. Good luck with all the real world stuff (inner and outer). Love, Katie

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 15:16:02 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Dermot Subject: best of the best to you, here's one for the road- Message:

A true story? - Mahatma Gandhi, as you know, walked barefoot most of the time, which produced an impressive set of calluses on his feet. He also ate very little, which made him rather frail and with his odd diet, he suffered from bad breath. You know what this made him? Ready???? . . . It's simple - (altogether now) a super callused fragile mystic plagued with halitosis ! .

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 15:04:28 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Dermot Subject: see you Message:

tomorrow.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 14:04:15 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Dermot Subject: I'm Off ( for quite a while);)) Message:

Good luck, it was good having you here:-) John.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 10:55:39 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Janet's take on Catweasel Message:

This is an excerpt of a Janet post now in inactive. The first part of the post was a freindly analysis of Patrick Conlon which may or may not have been accurate so I leave it out. ...as for catweasle, i figure, if this place is like a virtual coffeehouse, opened by ex'es, for ex's, open all night, we never close, bottomless cuppa java, run a tab, pay when you can, browse the library, recite at the open mike, hold forth at impromptu roundtables, exchanging high intellectual opinions-- if that's us, then cat must be the feral alley cat who forages in our dumpster, attracted by the enticing food smells and warmth spilling out the back door, and longs to find the courage to come in and be petted, but he's just too rough and hardened by the streets to be able to trust anyone and never learned how to act civilized around humans. we've tried, but he is what he is. he can't stay away and he can't trust enough to know how to be, so we let him feed off our garbage and accept that he's just there. we put better food out for him, sometimes, but he just snatches it and drags it off through the filth and gnaws on it at a distance. and being what he is, sometimes our more compassionate patrons have tried to go out and approach him, and have gotten slashed for their efforts. even our cook has surprised him in the dumpster when taking out the garbage, and has gotten gored as the cat came tearing up out of the depths and scrambled to escape. we forgive it. its his nature. he's feral. he just doesnt know how else to be. he's desperate and hungry and he's attracted by our glow. and he's so afraid of us, the only thing he dares feed on is our garbage. what do we do? lock the dumpster? get a compactor? shoot him? trap him and have him put to sleep? if we cut off his food, he'll only hunt down the anonymice and feed on them. do we want that? he seems to trust cerise. i say, fine-- let her adopt him and take him home. he can sit in her lap while she watches videos and satellite broadcasts and meditate with her later, when she gets the techniques. meanwhile, your cat scratches and abi's will heal up with attention and bandaging, and the café will expand. business is booming. let's go back inside and resume our discussions, shall we? Janet

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:53:55 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: bill Subject: Janet, brava! I'm so glad that I found you Message:

Janet, that was absolutely fantastic. I'll going to snatch it and make it a Roger's House of Maharaji Drek ***BEST***. Hey, isn't that where you found me/us or whatever? I mean isn't that where you came in and you were after my gizzard for my parody about you? I'm really glad you are here with us, Janet. Thank you so much. That post really put a smile on my face.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:52:47 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Roger, I'm so glad that I found you Message:

Your House of eDrek was the first anti-M site I found and it led me here. I laughed my way out of the cult thanks to you.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 13:36:14 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: bill Subject: Janet - simply brilliant Message:

You've got a way with words, girlie. Terrific insights. Thanks for putting that back up, bill. Marianne

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:43:12 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Marianne Subject: To Catweasel Message:

Catweasel, As promised, your two OT posts today have been deleted (sorry Katie for deleting your sensible response). If you seriously want to debate this with me, you can do it by email - forumfour@hotmail.com, but just remember, you don't have any rights here. Regarding your threat to spam us, well, we'll just have to take that risk. But I can't understand why you would want to gatecrash a party where you are so clearly not welcome. Forum Admin

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:39:06 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: To Catweasel Message:

As my question is not here for people to judge for themselves, let me reiterate. I am not threatening to Spam. I am telling you that I will utilise other ISP's and location and change my current identity.If you continue playing this stupid game

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:20:59 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: CW Subject: To Catweasel Message:

Cat, As you've ignored my suggestion to discuss this by email, I'll respond here, but any further off-topic posts from you will be deleted. There is a simple solution to this. Just keep to the subject matter of this forum, and you can keep your anonimity, and your posts will not be deleted. Even if we don't clock your new identity, any new person who only posts off-topic posts would get banned fairly quickly anyway. Why not try keeping on-topic? For a start you could comment on Jim Sander's correspondence with EV above. Forum Admin

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 20:52:01 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: CW Subject: er Cat..... Message:

What's the point of that? So you change from one made-up name to another - you'll still be an anonymous troll so what would you gain? A few more venomous posts until you get sussed and deleted. Why? Wouldn't you gain the attention and respect you crave quicker if you simply came out and told everyone who you were? Or is it true what I hear on the grapevine that nobody likes you anyway Bruce? Or is it John?

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:17:17 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Is it just me? Message:

Or does this quote from Catweasel over on AG sound like a couple of threats? I'm going to start using my full range of available hardware.....that in itself is freaky. Next step multiple servers. (Or a Latvian night in Ipswich -fuck me are these guys that dumb? That would be like a Klu Klux Klan rally in Harlem. The best one was that G character suggesting a march down the main street of Ipswich. Good luck G!!! You'll need it The first part, about using multiple servers (to create spam), sounds to me like he's setting up to initiate DoS - Denial of Service attacks. Well at least we'll know where to direct CERT and the Aussie police first. The next part is more sinister. What are we supposed to imagine from his description of a proposed ex-premie gathering close to maharaji's land of Amaroo being described as like a Klu Klux Klan rally in Harlem, and then G's proposal of a peaceful protest march needing 'good luck', if not that considerable violence would ensue. You know, I'm not a lawyer, but this is incitement to commit assault, maybe even conspiracy. I hope the FA is keeping all the details of this person's posts available for the authorities, including the ones on AG.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:10:04 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Is it just me? Message:

I don't think cw have any idea of how to initiate a DOSS. Second even if it happened, the person CW will have his ass in a sling. Ofcourse like CW is saying below. Ipswich belongs to the bitch Hanson. Do some work on her. anyway, I said my bit. How is the list going?

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:59:26 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Bazza Subject: And did you notice Cat's PR workover to be CW? Message:

I find it very interesting (Marianne, please email me privately about this matter - grin!) that CatWeasel is trying to distance himself from his former self by posting as CW.

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 17:41:52 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: takes less space in the archives......nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:33:56 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Yeah and now he's not even talking on AG Message:

I guess he's busy configuring his proxy chain or somefink. Gee, I wonder if we'll get any *new* visitors tonight?;)

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 22:39:06 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Bazza Subject: I noticed that, too Message:

He's probably steaming! Ok, maybe he's sleeping. I think that he has finally showed us his true colors and it ain't very pretty. Sure, it's a bold and in your face color like puke green, but after awhile you just start ignoring it. Ha, ha, ha, ha!

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:17:02 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Is it just me? Message:

This is on Topic Mr Spin Doctor.G has suggested a march against M down Ipswich's main street. I suggest that it is a Redneck paradise -Goodluck you will need it meaning - It's Pauline Hansons home town . God you can be a pain

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:52:47 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: CW Subject: I shifted over to AG Cat Message:

As your posts are going down faster than a case of Boddingtons.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:51:31 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Just one question, FA Message:

Cat seems to be bothered that people here might think he was 'cerise'. As I said in my post, I am not sure why this would bother him, since he doesn't appear to care what most of the people here think about him, but I personally wish you would clarify this - if you can, that is. Thanks, Katie

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:56:12 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Katie H Subject: One Answer Message:

To the best of our knowledge, with the technical tools available, if Catweasel is Cerise, then he's gone to an awful lot of trouble setting up the technical environment to have a conversation with himself, making it appear that he is in two different cities at the same time. So, we are satisfied that it is extremely unlikely that Catweasel is Cerise. Forum Admin

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:58:49 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Thanks! Message:

I appreciate it - and I hope Cat does too. As I said, I'm not exactly sure why he cares, but apparently he does, which seems indicative of the fact that he would like at least some of us to take him seriously. Katie

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:57:30 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: not hard to do at all nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:01:08 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Katie Subject: uh I was answering FA Message:

Lest they think I was answering you. That would have meants taking Cat seriously is nt hard to do at all. Which I find very hard to do cause he is not easy at all to figure out.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 18:04:10 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Selene Subject: uh I was answering FA Message:

Yeah, I know. In the post that got deleted, I raised the same issue with him - like you, I've been burned recently by anonymous posters who have not revealed their identity to ANYONE and seem to need to be mysterious about it. With the other anonymous posters on this forum, I usually know at least ONE person who knows who they really are - and that they are a real person.

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