Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 14:21:22 (GMT)
From: Mar 27, 2001 To: Apr 03, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


Pat Conlon -:- I'm back but it's absolute final last post until.. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 04:39:14 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You owe Patrick W. a big apology, Pat -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 15:03:39 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Yes, Jim - sincere apologies to Patrick W -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:50:41 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- I'm back but it's absolute final last post until.. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:48:32 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Cheeses HH Griste, Fag Hag, what do you mean? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:54:48 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- What a send off Pat, I hope you return soon (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:40:26 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Yes, it's time to get the garden growing again -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 07:56:02 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Tonette, please post more so I can get to know you -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:48:51 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- I'm back but it's absolute final last post until.. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 06:53:35 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- I'm back but no but! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:07:05 (GMT)

Pat Conlon -:- Goodbye - enjoy the anonymous cult propagandists -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:40:05 (GMT)
__ Babs -:- I'm in total denial. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 04:16:53 (GMT)
__ __ Dickie Pwickie -:- Conlonjayanti Festival coming soon -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:17:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Luke Pewk -:- Dickie you are an embarassment to the non-cult -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:40:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Babs -:- Thelmaraji rah rah rah (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:23:02 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Conlon, you'll never work in this town again! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 04:02:53 (GMT)
__ sean -:- Go ahead, leave me here with the heathens -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 02:25:10 (GMT)
__ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- Mate,If you were over ere' in Aussieland -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 00:51:43 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- ATTN: PAT CONLON..... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 00:09:57 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Fat Pat -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 23:38:49 (GMT)
__ Lesley -:- Pat, you fat fag with a colostomy bag -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:17:06 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- This is all a bit freaky -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:13:00 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Moldy OT -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:36:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ moldy -:- Dermot check your Email OT nt -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 00:09:12 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- You say Goodbye, I say Hello -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:10:33 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- Well said JohnT, it was new to me nt -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:21:01 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Come back! The FA finally showed 'em the door! -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:08:25 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- At least leave Thelma, here to hold down the fort -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:57:32 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Hey - you haven't been excused yet! -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:50:44 (GMT)
__ Kermit the frog -:- Hey Thelma will ya please... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:36:02 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- I don't understand -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:21:10 (GMT)
__ __ clarification -:- by a lecture -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:12:40 (GMT)
__ Ulf -:- Goodbye - enjoy the anonymous cult propagandists -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:48:18 (GMT)
__ cq -:- You'll be back. (what are the odds, Sir Dave?) -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:46:50 (GMT)
__ __ SD -:- You'll be back. (what are the odds, Sir Dave?) -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 02:03:01 (GMT)
__ janet -:- remember kapiladev? 3 days on the floor? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:09:31 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Come on janet, -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 23:37:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I agree, Brian...(nt) -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 23:40:15 (GMT)
__ __ carol -:- Sheesh Janet...so intimate, hope he takes it well -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:17:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Gay is human. Drama is drama. Not nec. the same. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:52:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Janet, your passion, fearlessness and humor -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:32:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Janet, your wonderful...nt -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:10:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Exceptional, very clear understanding janet (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:36:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- A wonderful post, Janet -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:32:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- *** This is brilliant! *** -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:57:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- I agree...very evocative writing (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:55:36 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Conlon you missed something, dude. -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:57:16 (GMT)
__ bill-I dont read CW or -:- cerise, hopefully FA's are not to lenient?...nt -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:51:33 (GMT)
__ carol -:- But 'anon'... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:48:45 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Steady there Pat.... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:46:26 (GMT)
__ __ BMW -:- Oh what a hero. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:39:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- BMW = masden nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 00:38:01 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Appreciate the good thought Dermot -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:07:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Amen, Francesca... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:53:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Look, Charles,.... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:05:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Sorry, FA... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:53:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ BMW -:- Look, everybody -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:08:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- ...and C's 'rape' post? Piss off premie Ji (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:47:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Look, FA, nobody said ... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 01:51:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- P.S. This is just what the trolls want... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 01:55:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Look Nigel... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:07:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ carol -:- Speaking of a jewel in the dust... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:59:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Appreciate the good thought Dermot -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:41:15 (GMT)

Carol -:- This site is impressive. Link or URL follows -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:15:43 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Hi Carol -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:20:47 (GMT)
__ __ carol -:- Curious:Is your name mas. or fem.? origin? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:35:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Curious:Is your name mas. or fem.? origin? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:44:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ carol -:- Very cool! Now: phonetic pronunciation, please -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:56:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Very cool! Now: phonetic pronunciation, please -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:12:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ carol -:- Like Kermit the frog? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:24:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- enough aready!! LoL (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:27:20 (GMT)

Francesca -:- In a democracy, I say, let people do ... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:53:48 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- Francesca., we're quite new here -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:01:03 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- I second that Kelly (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:46:04 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- In a democracy we sometimes give people enough -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:28:57 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- I hear you, and agree... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 17:51:40 (GMT)
__ __ carol -:- I am not alienated because I read none of them! nt -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:57:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Well, you are lucky, Carol (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:56:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ carol -:- Please read my response to you Abi's Goodbye threa -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:21:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Please read my response to you Abi's Goodbye threa -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:55:45 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H. -:- P.S. to F - Forum V admin is independent of EPO -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 18:12:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Forum V admin is independent of EPO -NONSENSE -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:32:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- You are technicall correct about liability, but... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:54:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Not knocking you, Brian or FAs -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 06:19:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- That's OK Pat -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:30:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I believe you're right on the law there Pat ... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:14:33 (GMT)
__ An Australian -:- FA: please block them -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 17:43:40 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Block and/or delete -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 17:46:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Block and/or delete - they are alienating exes -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:36:38 (GMT)

Dermot -:- Donner...were you there? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 15:14:04 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Mike McGuire was in the house -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 17:06:57 (GMT)
__ janet -:- I remember hearing that he climbed on the roof... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:13:48 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- Donner...were you there? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:06:34 (GMT)
__ donner -:- Donner...were you there? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 15:57:00 (GMT)
__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- 'Poss' Chapman, the instructor who showed me ... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:39:11 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Miller -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:14:07 (GMT)

Sandy -:- 'The double-sided emotional saga' -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 14:22:56 (GMT)
__ janet -:- You sound much better grounded in the real, today -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:48:19 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You have no clue how to analyze anything -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:21:37 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- You have no clue how to talk to other people -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 23:45:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Reality check, Sandy -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 00:02:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Reality check, Jim -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:37:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- Reality check, Sandy -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:42:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- You are still a dingleberry, eh Salam? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:40:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- so how are slug? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:30:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- And so it goes -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:49:40 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Maybe just pick your battles better. -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:06:11 (GMT)

Abi's Big Sister -:- What is happening here -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:49:19 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- So why does THIS post have to be anonymous? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:08:32 (GMT)
__ Cats Big Brother -:- What is happening here -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:04:03 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Here's your problem, Cat -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:15:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- Good point about regret -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:37:12 (GMT)
__ __ Abi's Big Sister -:- DO NOT RESPOND TO ABOVE POST -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:12:44 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- New document on 'my' website -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:20:09 (GMT)
__ bill-so typical of the -:- buddha effect! These groups see women as less..nt -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 13:21:49 (GMT)
__ hanuman -:- New document on 'my' website -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:06:27 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Three anonymous trolls down - you're next -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:49:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ hanuman -:- Three anonymous trolls down - you're next -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 07:51:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- EEK! A RAT, FA - ANONYMOUS TROLL ALERT -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:00:59 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- the teacher was in britain, not the US, and... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:28:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ hanuman -:- the teacher was in britain, not the US, and... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:00:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- anonymous troll alert - go away, silly billy -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:07:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Shri Hans slipped on soap in shower and died - LOL -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:56:34 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Rotting Vegetables -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 15:48:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ hanuman -:- Rotting Vegetables -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 15:27:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- The problem is when facts are lacking -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:02:34 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks J-M -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:33:28 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- He must be so embarrassed! -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:42:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- so embarrassed he'll have to drown it with cognac -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 06:22:09 (GMT)

Jorge -:- Who brought M to the west? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:52:14 (GMT)
__ Mike Finch -:- Who brought M to the west? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:06:05 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- What's wrong with Sitaram's version -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:18:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike Finch -:- What's wrong with Sitaram's version -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:24:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- And what about the story about his 'death'? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:56:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- And what about the story about his 'death'? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:17:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks, Mike - very interesting post. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:58:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- OK, I guess Sitaram's been exagerating -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:24:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hanuman -:- What's wrong with Sitaram's version -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:15:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- What's wrong with Sitaram's version -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:24:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- The Richard on this site maybe? (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:49:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ricahrd -:- Richard on this site maybe? No I'm not him (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:02:35 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Read Sitaram's interview, he's the one -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:12:24 (GMT)
__ __ Jorge -:- Thanks Jean-Michel -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 13:46:18 (GMT)
__ __ hanuman -:- Read Sitaram's interview, he's the one -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:27:45 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks Jean-Michel and Sitaram NT -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:59:05 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Wasn't it Bob Mishler? (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 05:50:27 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- What about Gary Girhard's Clandestine -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:23:40 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- A van load of seekers went overland to India . . . -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:13:14 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- sounds like we were listening to the same people -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:29:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Is that you Brian? My long lost twin brother? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 15:40:26 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Who brought M to the west? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:01:45 (GMT)
__ Des Perado -:- Air India and Arthur Brigham. -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:00:18 (GMT)
__ __ CW -:- Or a Jockey?(nt) -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:31:30 (GMT)

bill -:- Why I think Donner should keep his 50 bucks... -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:17:05 (GMT)
__ Twiz -:- I'LL DRINK TOO THAT!!! (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:48:14 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- I have two alternative subject lines for a reply -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:32:45 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick W -:- I have two alternative subject lines for a reply -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:26:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Good Morning Anon -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 13:53:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatrickW -:- 'Evening Bill -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:22:31 (GMT)
__ __ Oliver -:- Give JIM THE PRICK the money in trust!!??? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:53:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- FA, kick this culthead off. -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 10:58:40 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- I have to agree, Bill -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:23:20 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- I have to agree, Bill -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:35:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Did he download the boob picture?? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:39:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Are you suggesting narcissistic Master Bation -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:52:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Rev Moonbeam's new ''honesty'' is spin control -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:43:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill--what spin! -:- Translating 'somewhat more comfortable'.. -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 13:37:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill--keep your 50 till -:- the reports come back less spun....nt -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 13:40:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- excuse em waa, Donner, -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 14:10:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Hey, donner -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:40:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ donner -:- Hey, donner -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:47:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Only people who know if Rev Moonbeam reads FV -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:53:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Hey, donner -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:09:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Hey, donner exactly nt -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:16:28 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 04:39:14 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I'm back but it's absolute final last post until..
Message:
Thanks guys for all your messages of confidence in me. The feeling is mutual. But I do need a break. I have two books which I have neglected to do any writing on for three months, a business to run, a garden to weed and a family to love. Good luck sorting the wheat from the chaff. I find it exhausting and do not believe that cultists other than sincere questioning waverers have any right to post here. When that has been clarified I will return. Sure no one can stop them from posting but we can stop ourselves from responding.

I have been accused of paranoia in that I am seeing conspiracies where none exist. Sure I jumped up and down and screamed bloody murder about Cerise being Catweasel. But they both have that cult halitosis which stinks to high heaven. So I was wrong that they were the same person but I was not wrong that they are both cultist propagandists. Ask the FA who was the first person to email him when I spotted the PhilG/Twiz/Oliver/Des Perado hoax and I don't even have access to the IPs like they do. I trust my ability to read writing styles.

I do not have a paranoid bone in my body but yes, I am a suspicious, streetwise old fag who was harassed, followed, phone-tapped and intimidated by the secret police in South Africa in the sixties before being put in jail on trumped up charges. They could not make them stick and I was released and fled to UK before I ''fell out of a window while in police custody'' as happened to many of my friends in the anti-apartheid movement. So I do tend to always see both sides of any situation but I do tend to err on the side of ''trust first and see what happens next.''

I have just recently returned to and exited the cult where I was courted by the EV honchos and had inner circle ''business'' PAMs to dinner and met some pretty strange people. I was courted because I am a successful businessman and would have been a feather in EV's cap. I was also courted because people who do not know me well tend to think I am just a cheerful, naive, friendly person and they assume that they can pull the wool over my eyes and use me. But their cult halitosis really stank and I had to decline their offer. Actually I am so trusting that I was just about to rent them some property that I own for a meeting hall when Francesca warned me not to. Thanks Francesca.

I usually allow such fools enough rope to hang themselves which I did with the EV honchos and hang themselves they did. They hoisted themselves by their own petard or in plain English they strung themselves up with their own lies. Lenin (who I think invented the saying ''the end justifies the means'' also invented the phrase ''useful idiots'' - idealistic tools - to do his spin-doctoring and disinformation. EV thought that they could use me as a mouth-piece (an idealistic tool) for it's latest campaign of disinformation.

This new disinformation campaign consists of admitting that it is a cult BUT only for the stupid church-ladies and that the PAMs know better. The mahatmas created the original Hindu cult and the naive church-ladies are creating the new non-cult church. BUT Rev Moonbeam Rawat does not approve of EV church-ladies and says as much (in Portland) and says that they are wrong BUT he and Knowledge are right. He never created a cult. The premies created the cult. Yeah right. He is the fucking cult. Anyone who is loyal to him is in a cult regardless of how much they despise the other cult members.

He is now leaking disinformation (through a few posters who may only be idealistic tools but sound like a cult apologists to me - forgive me if I am wrong) about repentance and reform. Anything to combat the negative publicity of EPO. The cult is also having this disinformation posted here by Cerise, CW and hanuman. They all say the same thing: ''I'm not in a cult. The church-ladies are in a cult. The cult stinks but M and K are great.'' Supposed bongos like PhilG/Twiz/Oliver are here to disrupt the forum and get people to feel sorry for their mental sickness and to email them. Many of my email contacts have been suckered thus. This may not be a conspiracy but simply individual loose cannons. But I doubt it. The cult is a conspiracy. Conspire means ''breathe together.''

There is no need for premies to post here at all. If they are doubting then they can read first and make up there own minds. They engage us in debate in order to air their master's propaganda and revisionism. If premies want to post they should read EPO completely before posting. Their questions are all the same and have been answered a million times. They can check the archives and the EPO history and documents sections, Mishler's interview and Dettmers' writings.

So whom do I trust? I trust the vast majority of exes. I can tell who is lying and who is sincere. I'm not an idiot. I trust myself of course and Chuck and Francesca and Joe and Joy and Marianne who I know behind the scenes in real life.

I totally trust Anth, JHB, Gerry, Hamzen, Babs, Jethro, Cynthia, Robyn, Susan, Abi, Janet, Bazza, cq, Selene, Katie Darling, John T, Sir Dave, Nigel, Tim G, Dermot, Gregg, Salam, Dettmers, Donner, Jean-Michel, Helen, Bin (who has a real name which he posts) Tony (Aussie) Jim, Brian Smith, Richard Rogers and most of the others who use their real names and are verifiable by others who know them behind the scenes. If I have left any names out let me know. And I trust the FAs, a couple of whom I know, and Brian (webmaster) and Katie (but you've got some funny friends). I have fought and argued with many of you and know to trust you even if I do not agree with you 100%.

I also trust the following anonymous posters most of whom have emailed me to tell me who they are (as did many others before the recent coming out festival) Moldy, Connie, eDrek, Monmot, Kelly, Way, Mercedes, Ulf, Woolfy, Loaf, Such, Lesley and a few others whose names escape me. Let me know. Anyway, the point is that I trust most posters. I can smell a real uncultivated person a mile away just like I can smell a cultist.

In other words I am not going through some sort of ''phase'' of paranoia concommitant upon exiting the cult. Paranoia is when you believe everyone is out to get you. Out of the hundreds of posters here I distrust three or four. That's paranoia? Give me a break, kids. Maybe it's time to bring back the Thunderstealing Bitch to teach you guys a thing or two about street smarts.

And yes Janet I have been mugged, three times before I realized that the USA was uncivilized and that I had better not walk at night. And yes I was paranoid afterwards and wanted to get a gun but I knew it was an unreasonable reaction and I didn't get a gun and I never would. I prefer to spend my money on opera, thanks. Do you know how many ''Been there/Done that'' T-shirts I've got in my closet? Almost as many as you, Janet. And yes, I've been homeless too. Three times. Gay-bashed twice and gang-raped once. Jailed three times. And conned one time too many. Thanks Rev Moonbeam Rawat for curing me of any penchant for gurus.

And of course I trust Pauline Premie completely - why I nearly seduced her when she was young and cute and living in the ashcan. Honest - just ask her. But I wouldn't trust Glen Whittaker, David Smith and a bunch of other divine creeps I've known to babysit my cat. As for Rev MOONbeam Rawat, I wouldn't trust him if he repented and kissed my feet. Sorry angel-tits, you can reform all you want but I'll only really trust you when you are behind bars.

How long has Sandy been posting here? Two years? Poor wavering Sandy. Bullshit! Go read the Indian background and all your doubts will be erased. I have been giving you the benefit of the doubt and consider you lazy and stupid. The alternative is that you are a agent provocateur for the cult. I hope not - for your sake.

PS I also do not trust Knowledge as given by Rev Rawat. Knowledge is also Hindu voodoo mumbo-jumbo. There are better more scientific western ways to meditate as well as sensible traditional yoga methods without all the juju and superstition. Techniques-smechniques. Living an examined life is all that is necessary. Premies do not Enjoy Life - they cheapen it and debase it. They are like people who talk about sex all the time but aren't getting any. I guess all they've got is Master Bation.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 15:03:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: You owe Patrick W. a big apology, Pat
Message:
Pat,

I have total faith that if you think further on all this you'll realize that you were extremely unfair to Patrick W. This is not some land deal where one of the partners makes clandestine, unauthorized committments on his other partners' behalf, sells them out, so to speak. But you made it sound like that.

You know, when I read Patrick's account about how Maharaji's supposedly found a silver lining in having his venal, despicable character finally exposed, I was bemused. 'So that's how he wants to play it, eh?' I thought. Fine. He can say that. And thank you, Patrick W., for reporting the fact. If Patrick had ever intimated to anyone that he thought that there was room for some soft-focussed reconciliation, not that I gleaned that at all from Patrick's post, that would still be his opinion. So long as he doesn't purport to speak for me in the circumstances, its'n to a big problem. Sure, I might argue with Patrick, as indeed I did a long time ago, that I thought he was leaving a bit too much room for the guru to save face but that's all. Ironically, I actually did once think that about Patrick, that he was trying too hard to find a soft landing pad for m, but that was years ago. I don't think that any longer. I certainly don't think that Patrick's somehow a 'traitor' to our cause and I don't think you would either if you actually considered all he's said and done over time.

In any event, I have no doubt that you will resolve this well, given your obvious enthusiasm for truth and fairness. Yeah, I really believe that. Please don't confuse your own PAM contacts in the last days or months of your cult involvement with any contact Patrick W. might have. He's been out of the cult for some time now and I don't think for a second that PAMs have anything but the faintest hope that they could 'court' him back in. I'd imagine they'd have a lingering hope like that for any of us but that's not what drives the agenda, at least not from Patrick's side, in their contacts. As I see it, Patrick's just stirring the pot a bit, albeit at a slightly different 'level' than we're doing here on the forum. He got Dettmers to have lunch with Raja Ji? Well that's interesting, isn't it? Shouldn't we hear more about this before declaiming it and simliar efforts as 'selling out'?

I think so. So what DID those guys talk about anyway? Mike? Raja Ji?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:50:41 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, Jim - sincere apologies to Patrick W
Message:
Thank you, Jim, for chiding me and explaining so well what I hoped was the true interpretation of PW's post. The only excuse that can offer is that I was feeling a bit besieged by the latest guerilla attacks of cult revisionism by anonymous trolls and got things out of proportion.

I am heartily sorry Patrick and would make more of this if I felt that anyone took what I said about you seriously. The oldtimers obviously dismissed my stupid outburst as paranoia and put me in my place. This apology is more for the newcomers who may give more weight to my words than they deserve.

I am afraid that I shot the messenger. I hope that you will not bear a grudge against me for this and feel free to chastise me if you think that is necessary. You know that I have always responded to your previous posts with respect and usually concurrence.

My sincere apologies Patrick for any discomfort I may have caused you.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:48:32 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I'm back but it's absolute final last post until..
Message:
I promise not to take offense that you left me off your list honey.

If you need to take a break, go ahead. Sometimes wading through the muck should be avoided. I took a bit of a break here recently, and it helped. But I'm making up for my absence these last few days.


Love, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:54:48 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Cheeses HH Griste, Fag Hag, what do you mean?
Message:
Left you off my list? Look again - you are there after Chuck and Joe as one of the people I know off FV!

I needed a half hour break, Marianne. I'm back. Fresh as a daisy.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:40:26 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: What a send off Pat, I hope you return soon (nt)
Message:
LOL
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 07:56:02 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Yes, it's time to get the garden growing again
Message:
Pat I have immensly enjoyed your posts. I find you paranoid not at all but one of the most lucid people here.

Take care, Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:48:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Tonette, please post more so I can get to know you
Message:
Come on. I'm sure you've got lots to say. I am glad to hear that you have seen that I often make a fool of myself but usually try to be honest.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 06:53:35 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I'm back but it's absolute final last post until..
Message:
You said Pat 'living an examined life is all that is necessary' I guess that's all there is.
I love you and will miss you and hope to see you very soon.
I am also reading the book 'Captive Hearts Captive Minds' It is amazing and it makes me angry to read about the bullshit we've put up with with reverend moonbeam rawat and his bloody cult.
Hugs,
Mercedes (which is my real name)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:07:05 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I'm back but no but!
Message:
geez you. Thank you very much. I'm honored to be trusted.

And all your accounts of the dichotomy, the combo of being street smart by learning the hard way vs. being a trusting person who loves people - I cannot tell you how much that means to me to hear it put down in writing that way. I am so much that way. Different but so similar I could puke sometimes that my intuition not to mention the hard lessons leave me at times when I need them the most.

I understand you are busy. I have neglected things terribly this week at work but someone covered my butt as always happens with me. must be grace huh? gag barf.

As for the conspiracy stuff, I've said it but i'll say it again.
Whether it's organized or some nut cases who think they can do service and be shitheads at the same time, no matter. The end result is the same. You were not at all way out there, IMO. Just very expressive :) a good writer and I love writers. I want to be one when I grow up. no no I'm not saying I'm 20 going on 14 :)

And I am still miffed a bit by the FA's comment at the end of his/her banning cerise msg. but I'll get over it in, oh I'd say 3 hours max.
Be back soon. I really have benefitted by you being here.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:40:05 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Goodbye - enjoy the anonymous cult propagandists
Message:
I'm out of here. It's a waste of time as long as anonymous cult revisionists are allowed to disrupt and sabotage proceedings and drive honest decent people like Abi out. They are achieving their goals. Have fun giving Catweasle the benefit of the doubt.

I say to him/her: Just go suck your Hindu human god's hemmorhoids, asshole.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 04:16:53 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I'm in total denial.
Message:
I don't believe for a minute that you are actually leaving. For one thing, you don't have my permission. For another, what are you going to do with all that extra time? You'll need to get two more husbands, five more dogs, and another restaurant to fill the gap. Maybe take up a hobby or two, like pharmacy or something...

C'mon, you silly old thing, admit it. You just wanted to hear us all begging you to stay. Well, we did. We absolutely adore you and can't imagine a Forum without you. Happy? You creep.

Yes, yes, I understand the issues. You are absolutely within your rights to take the high road and deprive us all of your voice in order to take a stand, make a point, do the right thing, etc. ad nauseum. I just don't want you to. So there.

Now I'm going to send you an e-mail and use some REALLY strong language.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:17:37 (GMT)
From: Dickie Pwickie
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Conlonjayanti Festival coming soon
Message:
I feel a song coming on....

You are my Pat C,
And you are my Patsy,
You are my Thelma,
My thunderstealing bitch to me.

Jai Conlon Dev Thelmaraji
Your glory fills the world,
Protector of the leering and the geek
You bring the death of Catweasel
You bring the Forum less trolls
Jai dev
Jai Conlon Dev

Bhole shri Conlon dev Thelmaraji Ki Jai!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:40:59 (GMT)
From: Luke Pewk
Email: None
To: Dickie Pwickie
Subject: Dickie you are an embarassment to the non-cult
Message:
YOU ARE A FUCKING HERETIC!

And I can't wait to meet you even though I feel as if I have always known you - well almost as well as the old postman who brought our mail when I was a kid.

Pat, hater of human snakes.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:23:02 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Dickie Pwickie
Subject: Thelmaraji rah rah rah (nt)
Message:
xxxooo you crack me up
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 04:02:53 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Conlon, you'll never work in this town again!
Message:
You'll be back.

See ya whenever and see ya when I make it up to S.F. sometime soon.

P.S. Don't stay away just because you made a big public display and said you were going away. Everybody does it sooner or later. It's to be expected.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 02:25:10 (GMT)
From: sean
Email: seang2@earthlink.net
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Go ahead, leave me here with the heathens
Message:
Hey Paddy, sorry to see you go. You've got a good heart. I understand how you feel, though. Especially as long as you were in it and just recently out. I hope your healing continues, twenty years and I'm still crazy. Go mbeannai Dia thu!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 00:51:43 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: paris@ozemail.com.au
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Mate,If you were over ere' in Aussieland
Message:
I would take you out in my boat,throw out the fishin' lines,have a few beers and chew the fat for a while.That would blow the cobwebs out of ya.Pat,you ARE the forum!!!!I hope you have a break and come back refreshed.I haven't been reading for several days,so am not sure what has happened.We need your irreplaceable imput Pat.

My warmest regards to you mate.
Cheers Tony.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 00:09:57 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: sylviecyn@yahoo.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: ATTN: PAT CONLON.....
Message:
Dear Pat,

You're upset, you're angry, you feel used, and probably sad about Abi, (I am too) and I bet you are tired from being on this board so much. I understand. I don't want you to go, though.

Btw, Did you get my email?

You know, Pat, you contribute very much here. Maybe a break is what is needed--that's for you to judge. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, though. (and my tongue is in my cheek).

Pat, I feel that when fights break out here (and they do), and we all start discussing hot issues that concern all of us, that in a weird kind of way we are all coming together and becoming more cohesive, that we are working out stuff that has to do with the cult, with m, for moron.

I say this because we NEVER could argue, disagree, question anything, and especially, we were, if nothing else, a huge dysfunctional group of people blindly following a stupid fucking gooroo, an idiot of giantic proportions, who hurt ALL of us individually and collectively.

I don't want you to leave. If you feel you must, I still don't want you to leave but respect your decision. I'm sorry you've been hurt. Yet it's not your fault that Abi got hurt. If there's anything I've learned in my life, it's to direct my anger toward the right source.

In this case, it's Maharaji, Trolls, (and I suspect as you told me in another thread, that this issue always comes up when Abi's here and the J**deo issue is discussed), that it is EV's weakest link.

Abi will be okay. She will, Pat. She's one of the strongest survivor's I've come across. But she's going to be okay, she's a very strong woman.

Pat, maybe you need a break, but I ask you to reconsider. Maybe just read for awhile and post when you feel up to it? Your clarity, intelligence, wit, and insights will be sorely missed by me.

Pamper yourself, you know what you need, be safe, and all the best,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 23:38:49 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Fat Pat
Message:
Thought to send you out with a bang.

Don't worry me mate. This place can get under your skin. A break from it is good. See you in few days. In the meanwhile think of some good jokes.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:17:06 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat, you fat fag with a colostomy bag
Message:
Come back soon, I'll miss you. Love Lesley

PS you are going to say sorry to Brian for taking him the wrong way, aren't you?

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:13:00 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: This is all a bit freaky
Message:
Just to say hello and I'm gonna Email you. I don't agree with stuff somewhere below about you going through a 'stage' of exiting. Everyone is different and whatever you feel, you just feel. You don't need telling anything - at least I mean, if I had posted what you did, I wouldn't need telling anything. You and Abi's announced departures have made me think this should be a site for exes and sincere waverers only. I know it's only MO and I don't work here or do anything except post when I feel like it. Inherent problem with cyberspace- words are 'just' words and it seems easier or innocuous to steam in with argumentative stuff (I don't mean people on this thread BTW)but sometimes it hits home. This place is in a frenzy at the mo- all factional which is a sad sad thing- the last thing we need, and I tend to agree with you - you said somewhere below that Rawat's thing is powerful- premies come here with the backing of a huge powerbase of seeming impregnability. I say let's go for the throat of the one who runs the show (metaphorically speaking, I hasten to add). Love to you Mold
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:36:10 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Moldy OT
Message:
Hi Moldy

Was clearing space in my inbox yesterday and seemed to have lost your email address so please send a quick email ......no essay required (unless you want to of course)....I want to ask a little favour but will have to email . Dont worry....nothing serious hahha!!

Cheers me dear

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 00:09:12 (GMT)
From: moldy
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Dermot check your Email OT nt
Message:
X
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:10:33 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Abi, Fran, Pat
Subject: You say Goodbye, I say Hello
Message:
I doubt my words will sway you, but allow me to hope, and in that hope offer you words that this forum inspired in me some time ago. (Apologies to those who have read this before)...

---ooo000ooo---

I don't recall how I first found this site - probably the wife asking me to find the EV website and me spotting the ex-premie.org in the listing that came up.

Then I read all the Journeys. Every one. I wept and raged. I was appalled. The reason I hate Rawat as much as I do (which is more than I can express - and believe me, I've given it my best shot!) is in the Journeys.

He perverts the love and idealism of open-hearted and beautiful people into something sordid and evil.

That filthy fraud Rawat first came into my life when I was 17 or so, and still at school. I never bought into the scene. I was fucked up enough; not nice enough tho' - far too hard-boiled. In those days I drank heavily, despised poetry, and hated anything remotely 'spiritual'. Yet I hated that false messiah even more! I was safe from the fat 14 year old, as me and my and my mates derided the fool.

BUT he sucked the life blood out of the counter-culture that seemed to be flourishing in Bristol, England at that time. No end (it seemed to me) of beautiful young people started following him. They no longer put their love and energy into their community, friends and family. They became superior in attitude; kept secrets from the rest of us; and came to view us as foolish and lost for rejecting m's trojan gift without even trying it. It was horrible to watch the idealism of those days go to fatten the belly of beasts like Rawat and the hard drug dealers that moved in on a generation that thought it could make a difference.

Decades later, when I met my wife, it was like a time warp! She was shy to talk about Rawat - but I knew enough to tease and laugh her through to opening up a tad about things. Just to say the feelings are hers - nothing you can feel that can't be felt - and nothing to do with grace or whatever. I took her involvement very lightly. She had lapped her 'knowledge' from a toilet - but had not immersed herself so far in the shitty reality of Rawat's racket that she had become depraved. A butterfly, sipping from the pretty lotus that hid the rank and festering swamp beneath.

I have taken that lotus and placed it in my heart.

And I have found friends who would drain the swamp. For in that fetid swamp, below the beautiful lotus blossoms, lurks a gross and poisonous toad that feeds on the butterflies.

When the swamp drains, the toad will die, just as he has killed so many others.

---ooo000ooo---

We will prevail. Abide with us, please.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:21:01 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Well said JohnT, it was new to me nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:08:25 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Come back! The FA finally showed 'em the door!
Message:
And your wordsmithing would be sorely missed. This place has more good writers than a writers' chat room, you know. (Actually, I don't know, but I visited a poets' chat room once, and it was pretty pathetic.)

Your ideas on the theological context of Maharajism have been most interesting to many of us here, as well.

Stay in touch.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:57:32 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: At least leave Thelma, here to hold down the fort
Message:
while you are on sabbatical. I hope you are not serious, take some time and please do not make a hasty decision to completely exit.

You are very much valued appreciated here

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:50:44 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Hey - you haven't been excused yet!
Message:
Who do you think you are trying to sneak out of the door? Your work isn't finished yet. OK, you got upset by some anonymous posters, but you know, that's allowed here. Otherwise, Thelma would have been out of here after five minutes! And I see Brian's upset you. Well, he's a hardhearted guy, but he's seen some stuff. Worth listening to IMO. And this Cerise person. Worth this reaction? I THINK NOT! And what about the FAs here? I wouldn't want their job with half the forum complaining about posts being deleted, and half clammering for censorship.

No, I think real life is here, and isn't that what you left the guru for?

John
the deadhead

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:36:02 (GMT)
From: Kermit the frog
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Hey Thelma will ya please...
Message:
give that Pat Conlon a kick in the bollocks ...he's fallen asleep

on duty....

Kermit the Hermit

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:21:10 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I don't understand
Message:
Hi Pat

I thought of emailing you yesterday but just went on a binge on AG instead and a few people were very supportive.

I don't agree completely with you about all anonymous posters on here. For me, the content of their posts speaks for itself and if they are valuable contributors I certainly wouldn't block them Though I do wish they would not be anonymous I respect their needs for safety.
I have learned one thing though, I am no longer emailing with anyone someone I trust can't verify. I have been frightened and shaken up badly.

This whole thing made me very sick too. And the FA asked our opinion so I don't see why I needed to read a lecture about blocking cerise.

but other than that I am not sure why you want to leave.
You'll be missed

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:12:40 (GMT)
From: clarification
Email: None
To: Pat
Subject: by a lecture
Message:
I meant the FA's comment not yours.
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:48:18 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Goodbye - enjoy the anonymous cult propagandists
Message:
Your reasons to say: i am out of here, could also be the very
reason you will stay ,, so dont,,, whatever you do ,,,,
Best to you
From Ulf (anonymous ex premie)
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:46:50 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: You'll be back. (what are the odds, Sir Dave?)
Message:
(evens?)

cynic that I suppose I must be (actually, shouldn't that be 'realist'?)

you'll still lurk, Pat, even if you don't post.

Whaddya trying to do? Deny your desires or something? EPO has warts too, you know.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 02:03:01 (GMT)
From: SD
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: You'll be back. (what are the odds, Sir Dave?)
Message:
1-10 which means there's a 90% certainty he'll be back.
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:09:31 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: remember kapiladev? 3 days on the floor?
Message:
remember how he reposted the same assertions over and over and didnt get the reactions he was so convinced he should have?
Pat--when it rains, do you threaten to shoot yourself because a spell of weather rolls in?
Or do you wait it out because it can't last forever?

I guarantee--if you shoot yourself, it will last forever. For you, it be where you are forever.

This is temporary. It will not endure. Look back thru the archives and see the cycles. Having tantrums and quitting is desertion. One down, one to go. Divide and conquer.

You came on in a storm and you're trying to leave in a storm. Is that the only way you can make transitions?? Not real good with hello's and goodbyes?
Not real Yogic, now, is that? Not real democratic, civilized or love-thy-neighbor-as thyself, is it?

Just because you're gay, doesn't have to mean you ACT like it! You don't even have your tutu on, fer crissakes! If you're going to flounce and flame and dramatize, at LEAST go put on your makeup first! This is a job for Thelma to execute--not you, the armchair yogi.

Besides--if you leave like this, you're only going to feel all the more foolish when you want to return--and you will, because you're such a social animal.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 23:37:05 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Come on janet,
Message:
I agree with much of your intentional jousting here, but your reference does Pats sexual preference, goes to a hit below the belt.

Just because you're gay, doesn't have to mean you ACT like it!

Just because one is hetrosexual is it alright for them to act like it?

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 23:40:15 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: I agree, Brian...(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:17:30 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Sheesh Janet...so intimate, hope he takes it well
Message:
I do relate to some of what you said, but it smacks of sterotypes.

And really! There is no place for shame or embarassment here among the former devotees of GOD in Rawat form! So Pat can storm and come back anytime he wants!

Peace to you and your cats!
carol

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:52:28 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: carol, brian and PAT
Subject: Gay is human. Drama is drama. Not nec. the same.
Message:
Pat--I have been friends with gay men and women since i was 13. I have always related to my friends as people, and not stereotypes. I have always felt close enough to my gay friends to understand why they act as they do, and for that reason, to be able to remind them when they are on the verge of losing what really means a lot to them, because they are forgetting which part of the present circumstances is the real and valuable, and which part is becoming dramatic and florid and emotional. That's what I mean by'just because you're gay, doesn't mean you have to act like it'. What I mean, is, you know what is real. You know what direct, clear, unmistakeable communication is. When the chips are down and the stakes are at their highest, i know full well that the tutu and the makeup and the drama evaporates. There's a job to be done, and it needs everyone.

I know you know what drama is. I know you can separate the Grand entrances and exits from the issues. That's why I remind you that the grand denouement is a job for Thelma, and you completely forgot to prepare for the role before enacting the scene. The makeup, the wardrobe, the orchestration, the lighting,--the libretto wasn't even ready!
The audience doesn't know what to think. they're lost.

You, Pat, however, are indeed our chaired professor ofcomparitive religion. You are our armchair yogi. No one else has ever elucidated the roots, history and context of the Beas Rhadosoami tradition so plainly for me, for us, and made so clear where we fit into real world events. It completely pops the bubble we were told we belonged inside of. It dispells the whole mythical grip of the lineage of the Perfect Master and reduces it to its rightful place in the socipolitical history of India. Likewise your personal explanation of the Gujerati diaspora of South Africa, and shri Hans's emissaries to their settlement. It completely destroys the glowing, deceptive, distorted reports we have heard for decades, claiming that Knowledge is propagating like wildfire in Africa. Only you were able to lampoon that inflated image, and tell us the reality of it being an inbred society, transplanted from home and kept within the caste, and the family, and not especially interested in bringing it to outsiders. A very different picture from what we were given by the PR office.

Who is going to do this if you leave us? who else has the firsthand experience and knowing, to give us the true picture?

And there are greater repercussions, down the road, if you go.
What happens to Latvian Night in a few months? The entire west coast consortium falls apart. What greater relief and triumph could you hand the malibu empire? did you want that?

all this, over some airhead 20-something who took this place for a chatroom or a graffitti stall?
or some actor who put on the mask of one?

is the ethos operating here, that 'one bad drama deserves another'?

as for catweasle, i figure, if this place is like a virtual coffeehouse, opened by ex'es, for ex's, open all night, we never close, bottomless cuppa java, run a tab, pay when you can, browse the library, recite at the open mike, hold forth at impromptu roundtables, exchanging high intellectual opinions--
if that's us, then cat must be the feral alley cat who forages in our dumpster, attracted by the enticing food smells and warmth spilling out the back door, and longs to find the courage to come in and be petted, but he's just too rough and hardened by the streets to be able to trust anyone and never learned how to act civilized around humans. we've tried, but he is what he is. he can't stay away and he can't trust enough to know how to be, so we let him feed off our garbage and accept that he's just there. we put better food out for him, sometimes, but he just snatches it and drags it off through the filth and gnaws on it at a distance. and being what he is, sometimes our more compassionate patrons have tried to go out and approach him, and have gotten slashed for their efforts. even our cook has surprised him in the dumpster when taking out the garbage, and has gotten gored as the cat came tearing up out of the depths and scrambled to escape. we forgive it. its his nature. he's feral. he just doesnt know how else to be. he's desperate and hungry and he's attracted by our glow. and he's so afraid of us, the only thing he dares feed on is our garbage.

what do we do? lock the dumpster? get a compactor? shoot him? trap him and have him put to sleep?

if we cut off his food, he'll only hunt down the anonymice and feed on them. do we want that?

he seems to trust cerise. i say, fine-- let her adopt him and take him home. he can sit in her lap while she watches videos and satellite broadcasts and meditate with her later, when she gets the techniques.

meanwhile, your cat scratches and abi's will heal up with attention and bandaging, and the café will expand. business is booming. let's go back inside and resume our discussions, shall we?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:32:17 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Janet, your passion, fearlessness and humor
Message:
have buoyed me up many a time. You have made me weep and laugh and whoop with glee. I feel like you and I have crawled through the asshole of the world in a way most people don't understand. You are one of my main draws to FV.

No, I follow feelings and I just posted that I was leaving because that's the way I felt yesterday. I have been stalked by hanuman for a week and that gets tiresome. There are currently a few more anonymous trolls here (BMW etc) and they do bore me.

I posted my comeback to try to lift my spirits and take some focus away from the trolls also to make it clear that I am not paranoid. Yes, I am a drama queen but soemtimes drama breaks tensions.

You are my spatial angel.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:10:06 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Janet, your wonderful...nt
Message:
sdfhs
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:36:38 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Exceptional, very clear understanding janet (nt)
Message:
jjj
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:32:42 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: A wonderful post, Janet
Message:
You have been on a roll for the past couple of days - your posts have been great (and have helped me a lot). Thanks for your perspective on all this - I appreciate it very much.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:57:14 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: *** This is brilliant! ***
Message:
Especially the all night cafe description!

Absolutely brilliant!

John.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:55:36 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I agree...very evocative writing (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:57:16 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Conlon you missed something, dude.
Message:
To CW: You will only be allowed to post here in future if you engage in on-topic debate.

That's just FA putting a juicy mouse in the humane animal trap. He/she/it will NEVER be able to do that and will get caught and removed by animal control.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:51:33 (GMT)
From: bill-I dont read CW or
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: cerise, hopefully FA's are not to lenient?...nt
Message:
sdghn
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:48:45 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: But 'anon'...
Message:
You and I have both been anon. at various times. (I wish people wouldn't put that down as somehow underhanded.)

The main point I think is: who is disrupted or sabotaged? It is up to each of us to examine our individual reactions and choose to ignore or respond.

I think you gave me some advice somewhat along that drift once or twice and encouraged me to hang in or come back. I do the same to you today.

I do not keep up with this place as I would have to dedicate for more time than my present responsibilities allow, but I have been
happy to see that you have been so involved and I would miss seeing your posts.

Carol

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:46:26 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Steady there Pat....
Message:
You're sorely needed here to fight your corner.....if there's a mass walk-out then what'll be left?

I'm hoping Abi and Francesca rethink again too.

Imagine the glee and satisfaction those spoilers will have if they've got rid of the three of ya.

STAY AND FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT REGARDLESS !!!!!!

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:39:48 (GMT)
From: BMW
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Oh what a hero.
Message:
fighting the great dark shadows of your own imagination, oh you big strong boy you.

I don't care who she /he /it was/is/will be....
Cerise where ARE YOU????

Come Back, please

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 00:38:01 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: BMW
Subject: BMW = masden nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:07:21 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Appreciate the good thought Dermot
Message:
I didn't say I was leaving but I am not going to spend much time in the ring with people who waste my time. The people who allow these folks on the site and coddle their right to be here are the ones chasing me off. I scroll through the posts these fools make but it is tedious to go looking for jewels amongst the drek (and I don't mean you Roger). I feel you all should know better.

Peace and love regardless, f

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:53:04 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Francesca
Subject: Amen, Francesca...
Message:
Serveral days ago, the forum was great, a lot of serious, good discussions happening, lots of new people arriving. Then the Borg-Trolls began their assault, and suddenly it was like visiting a zoo, where all the cage doors were left open, and all the animal handlers were nowhere to be seen.

A few days later: One troll has been blocked, another scolded. A bunch of new people have stopped posting, and Abi has left.

I pleaded with Abi to reconsider, saying I was a friend and allie. But so what? I realize I have no power to block anyone, so there is little I can do in the way of practical help. Her credibility here was much greater than any anomyouus troll, yet she has been driven off, and many others intimidated.

The trolls won. If I want to hang out with trolls, I'll go play miniature golf. Like you Frannie, I won't say I'm going for good, but I will be posting less here if it's going to be an unmoderated ZOO. That is hardly appealing to new people, especially wavering PAMS who could bring some much needed updated information. The trolls know this, it doesn't matter wether or not it is an organized conspiracy (though a cult itself IS an organized conspiracy by definition) or lone cult individuals. The end result is the same; they scramble the debate and discussion and scare away new people.

I don't have much time to post here, and I have better things to do with my time than hopelessly try to deal with trolls and their effects. Can anyone blame Abi for leaving? I don't.

- Chuck, who is tired of trolls and is takeing a forum V break now.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:05:33 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Look, Charles,....
Message:
...it's not that simple.

Firstly, in the years I've been here, there have always been times when arguments with premies have dominated this forum. This is normal here, and the extreme censorship of blocking has only been used in extreme circumstances.

But as I said to you before, the vast majority of posts in the recent 'troll' threads have been from exes. In fact, the vast majority of such threads were started by exes.

This forum has proved extremely successful the way it has been run. I don't see that you're offering anything to improve it.

Forum Admin

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:53:31 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Sorry, FA...
Message:
I'm sorry I went a bit overboard yesterday in critisizing the way the forum is managed. I know it's not easy, I don't envy you your job, and you are trying to be as fair as possible to everyone. My apologies, and thanks to all the FA's, for voluneering their time.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:08:35 (GMT)
From: BMW
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Look, everybody
Message:
You say that on the one hand FA, and when Cerise acknowledges your 'balance' you immediately lose it. You had somethiong hot going there for awhile, it became alive alive oh! Pity you lacked the courage and foresite to see what the long term benefit to this site would be, If this site is the focus that is, could be a mite more personal than that I'd suspect. You're scared of losing what you think is your 'core ' group. Guys, if C showed you anything it's that there's a lot smarter, on the money folks out there that you could be serving. How many hours a day do you do this shit? How much do you earn? Get the best product guys, C and CW, they'd pack them in the aisles mate.

Now your scared flock are just picking amongst the ruins, wondering how a few simple sentences could start the downfall of the civilised world as we know it. Sad thing is, they'll keep waiting for the next one with fresh energy to waste in a vacuum. Then they'll destroy her/him as well.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:47:43 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: BMW
Subject: ...and C's 'rape' post? Piss off premie Ji (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 01:51:02 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: b
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Look, FA, nobody said ...
Message:
That running the forum is easy or simple.

I suspected that the ''Cerise'' creature was going to be trouble, but said nothing, lest I be labled ''paranoid'' because I am a recent ex. I was also willing to give ''Cerise'' a chance.

As things developed, I was right. Then Pat spoke out about ''Cerise'' and WAS labled paranoid.

You say:

''But as I said to you before, the vast majority of posts in the recent 'troll' threads have been from exes. In fact, the vast majority of such threads were started by exes.''

The key words are TROLL THREADS. There wouldn't be Troll Threads if we weren't having troll problems. If you want to blame the exes, go ahead. Makes a fine welcome mat to expremie.org. We are all supposed to just ignore the trolling, huh? Abi didn't have the stomach for it, and I'm sure many of us don't.

You also said:
This forum has proved extremely successful the way it has been run. I don't see that you're offering anything to improve it.

Extremely successful? Yes, for CATWEASEL. Excuse me for critisizing, I'm only a non-anonymous non-troll speaking here.

It's been pretty obvious for some time now that the Catweasel is not interested in really discussing anything, just disrupting. If that's o.k. by you, so be it. That is why Abi left. Others will follow.

- Chuck, who wonders if this successful site should be renamed ''Chez Catweasel''?


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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 01:55:16 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: P.S. This is just what the trolls want...
Message:
The Trolls want us to be arguing with each other about THEM. They are succeeding.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:07:53 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Look Nigel...
Message:
Listen Nigel, before you come charging in adding your tuppenceworth and protracting the debate ad infinitum, just stop right now. It's all been said at least two hundred times from every perspective and eveybody knows where they stand, and nobody gives a flying ferret what your opinion is on trolls etc., be it block them, ignore them or flame them.

So don't even think of hitting that 'submit' butto..


(oops...!)

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:59:16 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Speaking of a jewel in the dust...
Message:
I like to read the posts in the archived form when I can scroll through and found this worthy one which struck a chord with me,
(Thanks to Brian):

>Something that I found helpful when I was sorting through the false beliefs that I held and the underlying beliefs that supported them was an idea that I had heard
or read somewhere before.

That everything I believe or do, regardless of whether it's objectively in my best interest, is always believed or done by a part of me that is trying to protect me
from some danger that is posssibly long-forgotten. That part of me is always looking out for me, and seems to require praise for the job done so far and then
relieving of duty before it will stop 'helping'.

In many cases, I had forgotten the initial danger because I've already 'delegated' the job of watching out for it to some behavior or belief. I raised some shield
long ago and could then forget what the threat was, since it had been 'dealt with' and no longer needed my conscious attention.

When I question those beliefs later, I feel anxiety rising from the part in charge of maintaining that 'protection'. Incorporating other people's accounts with my
own helps to complete the 'Big Picture'. But it's still very hard to remove the 'Personal' behaviour or belief after I've unconsciously built it up to reinforce its
protective effect.

It's easy to say that I should quit my job after it's been 'proven' to me that my employer's product line includes nerve gas. But the only reason that I spent as long
at that (or any other) company as I did was to provide for my family and protect myself from being pennyless in my old age. I wanted steady work at a good
income promising a pension.

If I'm not able to see that those are my real concerns, I'm forced to rationalize that Acme Company also makes soap - a very helpful product - and to remember
the good friends that I've made, the company picnics, etc. It's counter to my own self-protection to even consider quitting, so the rationalisations pour from my
un-examined needs.

Or maybe I write letters to the the Board of Directors in the hope of getting the harmful product dropped from production. I want to view them as not being
aware of the harm in the product, and if I point it out, THEY will change so that I won't have to.

But their reasons to continue in their own self-protective behaviors are just as powerful as mine, so the gas rolls on.

When I was working through my beliefs about Maharaji, I found that part of me didn't even want to risk my being able to review the real reason for buying into
it in the first place, and it was hard to drag it out of myself. For me, it was the underlying belief that there is a God and 'he' knows what I'm doing even if I don't.
That I should live on faith rather than take any responsibility for areas of my life that might result in a massive eternal mistake - like damnation.

It was as if that part of me responsible for ensuring that the total 'me' didn't end up in Hell was refusing to put the subject on the table for discussion. The
consequences were so extreme and I had proven to myself that too many times that I was incapable of making the 'right' decision on 'important' matters. <

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:41:15 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Appreciate the good thought Dermot
Message:
haha so when Pat calms down he'll be back too....so now that Cerise has gone maybe Abi will post again and the last few days will be put down to experience..

Forever live and learn (hmm till we die that is ...then what? -:))

Anyway I'm definitely definitely definitely cooling it here till I get my work done hahah I log on and tell myself 15 to 20 mins and hours later .....I'm still here ....not actually glued to the screen ....managing to do other things but even so TIME IS NOT MY FRIEND AT THE MOMENT!!!!

bEST WISHES

Dermot

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:15:43 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: This site is impressive. Link or URL follows
Message:
http://www.jtucker.dircon.co.uk/unholy3.html

I found it as a link from AG. I have not explored all the sites yet. I am tempted to send some of the poetry to premie friends, as I am getting braver about being an out-ex.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:20:47 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Hi Carol
Message:
Yeah I've seen some of that before.....I wonder when that j'accuse thing was written.....so they are not ex-premies just a christian group who are pissed off with Amaroo etc?

They said they'd mess up Amaroo in a matter of months so that's why I wondered when it was written. Probably years ago hahaha.

Glad to hear you are getting braver ! me too...

Best Regards

Dermot

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:35:01 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Curious:Is your name mas. or fem.? origin?
Message:
ok?
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:44:43 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Curious:Is your name mas. or fem.? origin?
Message:
yo....Dermot anglicised form of the gaelic name Diarmuid

means......'wandering free spirit' (always been proud of that-:) )
Gender : Masculine

Full name Dermot Peadar Patrick Mullan (peadar=peter)

Dermot

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:56:08 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Very cool! Now: phonetic pronunciation, please
Message:
So it is your true birth name, right?
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:12:08 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Very cool! Now: phonetic pronunciation, please
Message:
hahah yep my birth name.....as regards phonetics I'm a bit of a thicko in that department....more like dermut (but not the full U as opposed to dermOt....understand?

wandering free spirit -:))

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:24:28 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Like Kermit the frog?
Message:
humm
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:27:20 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: enough aready!! LoL (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:53:48 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: In a democracy, I say, let people do ...
Message:
what they enjoy doing.

It seems that the FA and EPO and many posters do not want to block the cerises, catweasels, etc. that choose to post on this forum. I feel that, in the name of some sort of 'freedom of speech,' we are letting Rawat's trolls and minions grab us by the proverbial balls. We lay the power that is possible with this forum open to being vulnerable and weakened, manipulated by those with the loudest voices. Free speech allows all decibel levels. We are letting them scare away folks like Abi, for example. If folks don't want to nip this at the root, through blocking, another solution, which has been proposed, is that people ignore these folks.

That does not seem to be working. A good amount of regular posters seem to enjoy in engaging in repartee with such folk. Some regular posters even call these weasels out for more play with weasel bait.

To me, it is a shame that I have to look for meaningful or just plain good fun posts amongst what I consider to be trash that is a waste of time. The games you play with cats and trolls are not what I come to this forum for. I can watch people play with trolls in almost countless places on the Internet.

I'll probably be spending a lot less time on this forum. I'm tired of looking for diamonds among the dust. I fully accept the fact that my idea of diamonds and dust seems to be different than many other folks -- otherwise, you'd stop. I was totally disgusted when I came to the forum today and saw that nothing that has been said by some of us for the past few days has put a dent in this constant churning babblefest. I don't know if some of you were trained too well in the cult, and see engaging with these folks as a form of reverse propagation. But I digress.

I do see that some folks don't seem to be contributing as much, perhaps for the same reasons as me. I am not going to give a dramatic goodbye note here, because I will be around, but I am giving you the reasons up front for why I may become less active in what was, for at least a glorious run, a valuable and useful forum. Things were starting to turn around, it seemed to me, with Dettmers more active, Donner coming on, Guy Rollins, Connie, Cynthia, and then Postie's and Disculta's coming out parties, and on and on. I'm sure I've fogotten so many of you that I know and love through making me laugh till I cry at my computer.

I feel that many of you are wasting a golden opportunity to use this forum for what I feel it is intended to do, but then again, I accept that this may only be my own opinion.

Francesca -- an opinionated young crone in California whose hobby is rabble rousing

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:01:03 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Francesca., we're quite new here
Message:
Hi Francesca
I can't remember if we've had a direct conversation before, but I have enjoyed and valued your contribution to this forum. I think you and I have been posting for roughly the same time, four or five months? but even in that short time, I have seen this forum go through some real ups and downs, there have been times when I have been thoroughly pissed off with it, then the next day somebody says something that really touches me or someone comes out with another piece of the puzzle, or an absolutely brilliant discussion takes place, and I realise the true value of this open forum. there's no way I can keep up a daily attendance or contribution. I just don't know how some people do it..but I'm bloody glad and grateful that they do, and have hung in here through the years.
Thanks to all you old timers! you know who you are, and you're all young at heart.
And thanks to the newbies like you Francesca, and Pat Conlon who is now threatening to leave, I really hope you stick around.
Kelly
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:46:04 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: I second that Kelly (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:28:57 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: In a democracy we sometimes give people enough
Message:
ROPE TO HANG THEMSELVES.

But I agree with you. I am out of here until people stop getting suckered by ANONYMOUS PWK posters with very obvious agendas. To post revsisionist propaganda.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 17:51:40 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I hear you, and agree...
Message:
...even though I'm somewhat guilty myself. Every time I read the forum lately I get depressed at the amount of overt nastiness and covert hostility in the cerise posts. Her (?) posts are the most hate-filled posts I've ever read on this forum, and I feel like someone just threw up all over me (sorry for the graphic imagery, but...)

At this point, I wish many of the threads in the active index could be deleted, because there ARE some great on-topic threads lying in the dust. (Don't worry, 'free speech' advocates, I doubt that this will happen!) But it is depressing - or it's depressing to me.

Take care and thanks, Francesca -
Katie

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:57:18 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: I am not alienated because I read none of them! nt
Message:
x
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:56:26 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Well, you are lucky, Carol (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 21:21:03 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Please read my response to you Abi's Goodbye threa
Message:
d

The issue of personal attacks is still one to be discussed here, regardless of free speech. It would require a good deal of policing to be effective. Who would do it?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:55:45 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Please read my response to you Abi's Goodbye threa
Message:
Thanks, Carol. This whole issue has upset me a lot, and I'm pretty burned out on discussing it. I don't think we can prevent random personal attacks on the general posting population, but I do think we can protect people who have told their very personal stories with reluctance to help other people. I would respond more fully, but I am just fried.

Anyway, I appreciate the thoughts. Liked seeing the pictures of you too.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 18:12:09 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: P.S. to F - Forum V admin is independent of EPO
Message:
Although the site and forum are hosted on the same server.
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:32:25 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Forum V admin is independent of EPO -NONSENSE
Message:
Brain has made it very clear to what guidelines he has given to the FAs and why and I agreed with him. There are liabiltiy issues but free speech for cult revisionists does not have to be legally protected here.
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:54:44 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: You are technicall correct about liability, but...
Message:
what I meant is that Brian doesn't tell them how to do their jobs (and vice versa), apart from the violent threat issue (which has encompassed a very small percentage of total posts). And that is NOT 'nonsense'!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 06:19:11 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Not knocking you, Brian or FAs
Message:
I warned you when I first came that I was a shit-stirrer and it's what I do well. I have done my share with others in getting rid of three trolls (and two obnoxious drunks) and will continue to do so.

I'm not mad about censorship and to me the way around that is to kick up a stink when I see something fishy going on.

I want to say that I really appreciate the work that you and Brian and the FAs do. Thank you.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:30:01 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: That's OK Pat
Message:
Although you ARE a bit of a shit-stirrer. I wish you'd reconsider what you said about Patrick W., for one thing.

Anyway, I don't do much work around here except provide moral support - although that has been an absolutely exhausting job during the past few weeks.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:14:33 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I believe you're right on the law there Pat ...
Message:
although I haven't looked it up lately. Free speech is for public fora, such as institutions supported with public taxpayer's money, and there are a gazillion cases even setting limits on THAT.

No one with a website and a bulletin board or forum has to let anyone post whatever they want to post, under the law. I think we're fighting a group ideology here, but I'm not sure. I believe it's the right of the people paying to keep this website going (not me obviously, though I wouldn't mind paying dues if these issues ever get straightened out) to limit the content here in whatever way they choose. Whoever pays the fees for the account with the server, the domain name registrant, etc.

I guess that's 3 cents this time, rather than 2.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 17:43:40 (GMT)
From: An Australian
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: FA: please block them
Message:
If blocking them results in the disenchantment of a few premies who might be lurking and take this action as a form of anti-cult hostility then surely this price is worth it in the interests of restoring the forum to what it once was. Not blocking them will result in the alienation of too many people who make valuable contributions and prevent more people from participating in the future. That, to me, seems far more democratic.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 17:46:58 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: Block and/or delete
Message:
Whatever works to get rid of these jerks. They are hijacking the forum, and doing it intentionally. Desperate measures for desperate cult members.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:36:38 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Block and/or delete - they are alienating exes
Message:
Thank you Marianne. It makes me sick to listen to the revisionist propaganda being spewed by the guru-cocksuckers. I am mad as hell. My email is full of messages from exes who will no longer post because they are frightened that the same thing will happen to them that happened to Abi. These people are anonymous and malicious. Anonymity should not be tolerated for cult propaganda or malic.

Has anybody else noticed that certain more timid exes will no longer post? They have told me why.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 15:14:04 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Donner
Subject: Donner...were you there?
Message:
A question kind sir.

Were you there (or get reliable second-hand reports)when an out-of control forest fire encroached upon the Malibu res?

I can't recall the time of the event(it may have happened more than once, come to think of it)but I remember him referring to it in one of his talks.

Was it a serious/dangerous event?How did he responsd to events? Blame God(or himself!) for acting so inconsiderately?
Panic? Get angry, perturbed ......or was he the measure of composure, tranquillity,acceptence and surrender? Go on, dash our
Ex-concepts/hopes and say the latter !!

If not the fire, have you ever witnessed him(or again heard reliable s/h reports)confronted with a situation where his usual control of events and people has been severely challenged? (come to think of it there is the pie-in-the-face event which he didn't handle too badly.....but in that situation he didn't have much choice but to stand there quietly with pie all over his face)

I suppose what I'm asking is how is the fella under pressure, confronted with a crisis situation?

Cheers mate...

Dermot.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 17:06:57 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Mike McGuire was in the house
Message:
There was a major fire in the late 70s. I don't remember where the Lard was, whether he and some others had already split in the motor home, but somehow there were several premies left in the house. This story was told in satsang in LA by Mike McGuire. There were other stories told by Kathy Sullivan (Pranam Bai).

Mike said that some construction workers that were working on property further up the hill came to the house for shelter. The fire got really hot around the house. They believe that a stand of trees surrounding the house that would not burn saved the house. The windows started to get heated by the fire. Mike said that if they cracked, the fire would be sucked into the house and they'd all be toast. The premies were meditating and doing their best with it, but the construction workers were feaking out. At least one pee-d his pants.

I vaguely remember the story about the premies spray painting the dead grass around the residence green.

Pranam Bai ran down a steep hill with the fire coming after her. One of the goats followed her, but was burned in the fire. This was an amazing story to me because of the power of the human mind. She was amazed too. Something took over and let a not-too-physically fit woman run down a hill and save herself, and yet a goat, who was genetically engineered to accomplish such a feat, burned in the fire, probably because it could not get over the panic in its little goat mind, but who knows.

I was at work that day, and a Brit premie that I worked with Gordon, got called by his then-wife, Jane. She was at the bottom of the hill and said that the fire went up and you could not longer see the house. It was pretty dramatic, from all the tales that were told, including personal ones, for weeks on end. Malibu was evacuated and some premies lost their homes or their possessions in the rentals where they lived.

--f

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:13:48 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: I remember hearing that he climbed on the roof...
Message:
and hosed down the house for hours while the fire raged all around. I believe I heard that he ordered everyone to evacuate but he insisted on staying behind to singlehandedly try to hold off the fires.

The yearly cycles being what they are, fire season in Los Angeles begins in about July and builds to tinderbox conditions through August and September and October, and lasts until the yearly winter rains come on in November or so. It is especially deadly in September and October, because of the reversal of the regional prevailing winds, which blow in from the ocean most of the year, carrying moisture and wetting the coastal lands down with dew every night, but those winds change course and blow in off the desert during September and October , drying out the landscape further, after a dearth of rain since roughly the previous February, and the blistering sun through the summer months.
So in all likelihood, the time of year was september or october, during the Santa Ana winds.
I remember that following the fire, Maharaji took what could be viewed as drastic action, appropriate for the area, on advice of the fire marshals, to clear the land around the house of all flammable brush for a large margin extending out and away from the house and other structures. It was during this time that he acquired the front-loading bulldozer we saw footage of him driving and operating in various movies and stills at that time. I seem to remember footage of him playing games with Bob Mishler, raising him in the bucket and pretending to drop him, so the first time had to be before Bob quit and later died. That puts it before 1976, and since fire season is september and october, pushes the year back to no later than fall of 1975. Premlata was born in the early spring of 1975, so she was still an infant in the fall of that year. That is the nearest that i can pinpoint when it had to have happened, the first time he faced the fires.
In all likelihood, he was recommended by the fire marshals to buy and clear more land around the house in order to build up a wider safety margin, to keep the flammable vegetation zone under prudent control. This is standard local advice we in Los Angeles witness every fire season, which is underscored each time a fire starts and spreads in the hills. It preempts the news and overtakes all programming on some channels when it becomes all absorbing.

The only thing that can quench such conditions is the cycle of nature, when it brings the yearly winter rains--which, in malibu, bring the yearly winter mudlslides(!!!!!). The scorched earth and seared vegetation lose their hold on the soil, presenting barren surfaces unable to hold the water, and soil and fire debris wash away down the mountainsides, causing still further erosion and property peril when flash flooding quickly saturates the steep canyon gorges and carries huge flumes of water and debris down to lower elevations, and often, huge chunks of land give way and fall out from under homes built on the hillsides. I have seen these with my own eyes. It is madness that people buy and build on such land formations, but in Los Angeles, the rich move up into the hills, seeking privacy and relief from the crush of the general population. The more money you have, the higher and deeper into the hills you move, and the more space you crave to put between you and the next neighbor over.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:06:34 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: epton@magma.ca
To: Dermot
Subject: Donner...were you there?
Message:
Sorry to interject. Two things stick out in my mind from that event. In a satsang address following the fire he thanked the 'grace' for sparing the residence. Prior to that, in a number of programs, he specifically pooh-poohed premies who referenced the grace as bringing about fortuitous events. i.e., when Ann Johnson gave her opening address at a Kissimmee program she remarked that it was a nice sunshiny day and for her that meant m's grace was upon us - he ridiculed her when he spoke later in the day, saying that the grace is present even if it were raining cats and dogs (or something like that). The other thing was that I heard m had the res premies spraypaint the charred grass green (maybe somebody else could verify that).
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 15:57:00 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Donner...were you there?
Message:
i was not there at the time...tho in LA a santa anna wind swept fire raced up towards the home...even jumped the house and charred some trees on the other side of house...some premies stayed to fight the fire watering roof, lawn, etc. some raced for their lives literally as fire chased them down the hill. not sure who ws there miller, kathy sullivan (PB) and others as i vaguely recall...have no memory of m's reactions. more water protection was installed in near term after.
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:39:11 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: 'Poss' Chapman, the instructor who showed me ...
Message:
... the four techniques, told me that story. He said he was at the residence. So was M. and his family, but they left early on. Some of the premies stayed behind to pack things to save. Poss said M. told them not to endanger themselves by staying too long. But the fire moved so quickly, the premies who stayed behind were trapped before they realized it.

He had mentioned the painters from down the road, whose truck was stopped from leaving when the tires melted on the road. He said they were totally freaked, as described. Poss said he nearly did the same, but one of the premies suggested they have satsang. The fire came close, and you could see the heat affecting the window panes.

After it was over, it was like a miracle to Poss, it obiviously had affected him deeply. I think perhaps he thought it was a Lila or some kind of test of faith or something. I got the impression that perhaps he felt M. protected them somehow.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:14:07 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Miller
Message:
I remember hearing Miller talk about the fire. He mentioned another guy who was there but I don't remember who. I vaguely remember him talk about being in the house while huge flames lept over the house. He made it out to be a miracle that the house didn't burn down.
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 14:22:56 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'The double-sided emotional saga'
Message:
That phrase came to me this morning...'double sided emotional saga', that Maharaji used to use alot. Little did I know how double-sided and emotional this saga really is.

Maharaji, DLM, EV, premies and ex-premies have all done and said some things that I would not endorse or support. So I remain myself, merely one of billions of homo sapiens sapiens, tooling around planet earth in search of both the inner intangible and the outer tangible fulfillment and happiness that we all seek.

I do not care for the blanket negative characterizations of either premies or ex-premies, for each person is an individual and each person is at a different stage of development and realization. I am equally disgusted by ex-premies who badmouth all premies and premies who badmouth all ex-premies. I am especially disgusted by premies who try to demean or dismiss the claims of Abi or anyone else who was maligned under Maharaji's umbrella.

I'm not going to let this thing rob me of another day of peace while it works itself out. Sometimes a splinter will come out faster if you don't mess with it so much. I'm going to try that.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:48:19 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: You sound much better grounded in the real, today
Message:
Sandy, I have noticed that your anguish seems to stem from being enamored of concepts, and not being able to make them work when faced with actual situations all around you.
Life isn't a concept, Sandy. Neither are people. You, yourself aren't a concept, and trying to live one--or live as if you were one--is going to torment you until you forsake the effort and let things be what they actually are.

I had a major awakening last week, which i endeavored to put on display right here, in which i saw through a lifetime of trying to live up to what I had been taught since childhood as a religious ideal--which was directly opposed to what i found my natural instincts to be, from my depths. I had been locked in a war with myself for decades, staunchly dead set against myself, each half determined to have its way in the face of the other. The Killer and The Healer, each one convicted of its right in the face of life.

And I broke through. Suddenly I knew i am both and have always been--and there is no war anymore. I am content. I do not fret anymore. I know whatever faces me, I will do whatever my self tells me to do for that time, and it will be right. I am not fretting about trying to fulfill someone's ideal of what a person should be, anymore. I am what i am and it's the right thing to be.

I am glad to hear you bringing your focus back down to real people and real feelings for them. You sound far better grounded in the real than you did when you were agonizing over trying to fit into great, lofty concepts. One of the aspects of Ex-ing, for me, has been to decide to chuck being in my head all the time, churning over being this way or that way, and to refuse to get sucked into the debate anymore. I am sick of trying to be a goody-goody twoshoes to everybody when my life is ticking away. I just want to do tangible, visible things I can see, and feel, and be satisfied I accomplished them. Screw this 'don't be attached to the fruits' crap. You wouldn't believe how good I feel after mowing the lawn I planted last year! I can look out my window and smile and say 'I did that--and it looks Great!'
And I don't care that I will have to mow it again next week. It'll look great then, too! Who says I can't do anything right?????

--Janet
( nearing 50 and only now realizing what it's about)

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:21:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: You have no clue how to analyze anything
Message:
You're hopeless, Sandy. Like a car spinning its wheels in the sand. Too bad for you.
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 23:45:28 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You have no clue how to talk to other people
Message:
And you careen through here crashing into whoever, justifying it with your rapier (ha) wit and your big (ho) library. There is hope, however.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 00:02:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Reality check, Sandy
Message:
I'm not the one moaning and groaning ad nauseum about how you're going to give up Santa Claus who, after all, was such a BIG part of your life.

This cult-thinking is a swamp I once lived in and which I revisit for laughs, to help others, and to confront the asshole who exploited me. But you, Sandy, still drink the water.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:37:39 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Reality check, Jim
Message:
You fail to accept where anyone else is at but yourself. You show open disregard (through not so subtle wordgaming) for premies and ex-premies alike who don't agree with your read of things on any given day.

How would you like some big head to come along and explain to you how unevolved you still are, big boy? It could happen.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:42:00 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Reality check, Sandy
Message:
I haven't read Sandy since his 'conversion', but is he still a sucker or has he moved a bit?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:40:12 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: You are still a dingleberry, eh Salam?
Message:
Clinging to assholes and just being a hard little shit....

If you want to know how I am, why don't you ask me?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:30:23 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: so how are slug?
Message:
still crawlling about in your new age execuses for why aren't you out yet. Oh well, it'll be all over soon, the forum will shut and you'll be left woundering, dahh, maybe I better go back to my blanket, dahh, in case pootaji is the lord dahh.

You sound stressed anyway. What's the matter, being 'harassed' by assholes like Jim and their followers like me. Oh you poor little pussy. Come to daddy, he will keep the nasties away. Oh cochi cochi, there you go, suck my tits. You little cuddly creator. You can stick it up your nose anytime.

Hey boofhead, when did you find me sucking up to anyone?

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:49:40 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: And so it goes
Message:
Dear Salam,

You can have the last word. I don't want to descend any further.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:06:11 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Maybe just pick your battles better.
Message:
Stick with just you.
How wonderful would you view the news that your kid was attending video events.
Why would you care.
Keep it close to your life, no need to wait for others to all agree.
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:49:19 (GMT)
From: Abi's Big Sister
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What is happening here
Message:
Abi does not have an actual big sister. But she does have people here, me among them, who dearly love her and support her and feel that the loss of her participation on the forum is one of the biggest losses we could suffer. That said, echoing Susan's comments in the thread where Abi announced her departure, we must respect her wishes. I am absolutely outraged about what has happened to her during these last few days. By sitting idly by, watching Catweasel and cerise take verbal pot shots at her, we are complicit in allowing the cult to continue abusing her. Make no mistake, when Abi shows up, premies and even the occasional ex, have said vicious and nasty things to her which directly relate to the sexual abuse she suffered at Jagdeo's hands. These comments are sexist, offensive, and have no place on this forum. They are designed to hound her away from posting here. These comments are also intended to frighten her from doing anything to right the wrong that was done to her by the cult and Jagdeo.

It is not a coincidence that the few premies who are posting these days are taking a more aggressive and nasty tone. They are calling the integrity of specific forum participants into question -- it's part of the cult's disinformation program. This is happening because so many new exes are arriving here, and because of the incredible impact of the disclosures being made by Dettmers, Donner, and other PAMS. And also because the Amaroo event is, as we have been predicting, very undersubscribed. The cult masters are getting nervous, and the only way they have to fight us is to try and discredit or dishearten us -- especially people like Abi.

As Abi's Big Sister, here's my suggestion. DO NOT TALK TO THE PREMIES WHO ARE ONLY HERE TO CREATE TURMOIL AND ATTACK EXES. If you do not talk to them, they will go away. When we respond to their bullshit, the other great threads disappear. That is exactly what they and the cult want. By doing this, you are respecting Abi by showing these jerks that they are not worth the attention.

Abi, you know who this is. Take a break. Take care of yourself. You're the Joan of Arc of this forum. We'll do whatever we can to see that this abuse is stopped. You are an inspiration to all of us. I especially will miss your recent humorous posts. The 'Indian Wobble Dance' was priceless. Don't let them silence your powerful voice forever.

Your Big Sister

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:08:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Abi's Big Sister
Subject: So why does THIS post have to be anonymous?
Message:
I thought there was a rule against multiple aliases here? Really, how can we expect premies to adhere to that rule if we don't do it?
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:04:03 (GMT)
From: Cats Big Brother
Email: None
To: Abi's Big Sister
Subject: What is happening here
Message:
Hang on b**tch. Where do I get a guernsey here? I said she sounded uptight! One comment. Now you accuse me of taking potshots at her? Fuck off!I know what's offlimits..go tip someone else into it SHeesh...........I challenge you to find more than ONE post that said anymore than the above LIAR!!!!
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:15:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cats Big Brother
Subject: Here's your problem, Cat
Message:
You know, if you were anyone else, people wouldn't likely be jumping all over you now, putting you in the same category as cerise vis-a-vis that comment and your take on it. But the problem is, Cat, you are nothing but a complete asshole here. You post for one reason alone and that's to harrass and irritate. That's your entire persona here. So it's far from surprising if no one wants to carefully examine just how much of an asshole you were on any one particular occasion, is it?

You may regret how you conducted yourself here one day. But that's only if you're lucky.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:37:12 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Jim/Cat
Subject: Good point about regret
Message:
I does appear Cat's burned his bridges before he's crossed them!

Better keep your real identity well hidden Cat in case you DO one day wise up and opt to leave the cult. Come in with your real name and make like you never posted before. You'd still have to live with the memory of your obnoxious persona of course, but we sow what we reap, right?

Say hi to Jez if you see him.

cheers, see you next year?

bazza

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:12:44 (GMT)
From: Abi's Big Sister
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: DO NOT RESPOND TO ABOVE POST
Message:
I'm ignoring it. So should everyone else. BOYCOTT THE PREMIE TROLLS.
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:20:09 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New document on 'my' website
Message:
The Indian Group claiming Swarupanand's Successorship: Shri Dada Guru & Swarupanand's other heirs.

We've been waiting for years to finally have all this clear. Thanks to the several persons who've made lots of research.

I guess Mr Prempal Rawat will have to update his 'masters' page on his website ...


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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 13:21:49 (GMT)
From: bill-so typical of the
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: buddha effect! These groups see women as less..nt
Message:
wrthht
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:06:27 (GMT)
From: hanuman
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: New document on 'my' website
Message:
just go take a look in your forum archives.. not so long ago
there was a report from some u.s. prof or doctor of comparative
religion from some u.s. university, who had been to india for
an M event and he visited the last living mahatma of sarupanand,
i forgot his name, and he was overjoyed that he could tell this
guy about how sarupanand loved all his mahatmas , but he defi-
nitely did hans ji best!!!!of course those official guys from
nangla sahib don't mention him.. who knows them ??? but everybody
knows hans ji....so M don't need to be bothered, but sounds like
that is all good food for your mind, how much more do you need
until it explodes???waitin for the big bang....!!!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:49:57 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: hanuman
Subject: Three anonymous trolls down - you're next
Message:
Hanuman wrote: ''M don't need to be bothered, but sounds like
that is all good food for your mind, how much more do you need
until it explodes???waitin for the big bang....!!!''

Fuck off Hindu hemorrhoid sucker.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 07:51:23 (GMT)
From: hanuman
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Three anonymous trolls down - you're next
Message:
such nasty words, reverend conlon, i think this is a democracy,
i tol'ya it's gonna backlash and all those tiny hitlers are
gonna creep out and shout 'oh, ther's a hitler', probably this
will be deleted by FA
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:00:59 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: hanuman
Subject: EEK! A RAT, FA - ANONYMOUS TROLL ALERT
Message:
ENGAGE IN CONVERSATION AT THE RISK OF BEING BORED TO TEARS.
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:28:01 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: hanuman
Subject: the teacher was in britain, not the US, and...
Message:
i posted in that thread.
this assertion of yours that 'everyone knows hans'--everyone, meaning who?
I said in that thread that it struck me that when sarupanand was dying, he asked the mahatmas who among their peers did they want to lead them when he passed, and they all told him they liked vairaganand. so he assented to the chose and named vairaganand to govern them when he died.

there was never any talk about passing his crown to a new satguru or designating a new body for the eternal presence. it was rather more like parliament democratically electing a prime minister and then sending to the Queen for formal installation and telling her who will be looking after her business.

hans, by contrast, apparently wasnt interested in hanging around after his beloved passed out of the world. he left. he only wanted to spread knowledge , not socialize in a club of mahatmas or be a clerk in a bureaucracy.
so he took off on foot across india and spread knowlege as he wanted to. in time he took a wife and had four sons, and was delighted to see the vehemence of his smallest. he let him talk and attract a crowd so that hans could have something to address.
we all know the story surrounding hans's death. the mundane is that he slipped in the shower on a bar of soap. the embellished is that he 'left his body' and left the letter giving his prostrations to his youngest. we know the controversy surrounding the chaos in the time after he died. we have heard how sant ji was boosted up onto the throne to address the crowds and astonished one and all by declaring that maharaji was among them and could not leave them.
how this took mataiji and the rest of the mahatmas blindside by surprise but they had to honor it.

all in all, just each person, doing what they believed in. no definitive authority external to oneself, just personal conviction to do what you feel ought to be done.

all the rest of this frufru is hype. the stuff sandy is caught in, the stuff you are deluded with, the whole dunderheaded fantasy we were looped into--its all nothing. all that purple prose in the scriptures--
so what?
it's a dear diary. it has no significance for anyone but the writer.
important?
it doesnt mean shit to a tree.
compost it with earthworms, and maybe it will mean shit to a tree.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:00:24 (GMT)
From: hanuman
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: the teacher was in britain, not the US, and...
Message:
good stuff, janet, but not quite true: hans ji left long before
his teacher died, in fact he started spreading knowledge at
around 1930 whereas sarupanand ji died in 1936, so hans ji did
not wait for the constitution of the mahatmas...
prempal said in one of his first satsangs that the perfect
master is not bound by governments...rightooo long live anarchy!!!rock'n'roll rules supreme!!!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:07:50 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: hanuman
Subject: anonymous troll alert - go away, silly billy
Message:
Rev MOON face Rawat say: ''perfect master is not bound by governments.''

Oops! But they have been crucified by governments before and may be tried and go to prison this time. Just like that other televangelist, Jim Bakker, who only took 3 mil of the 58 mil.

How much has your master of darkness and immorality skimmed off the top?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:56:34 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Shri Hans slipped on soap in shower and died - LOL
Message:
Was he drunk? You slay me, Janet. So Rev MOONbeam Rawat is the son of another drunken bum.
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 15:48:56 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: hanuman
Subject: Rotting Vegetables
Message:
Hanuman wrote: 'but sounds like
that is all good food for your mind, how much more do you need
until it explodes???waitin for the big bang....!!!'

This typifies DLM/EV thinking about thinking: thinking is a BAD thing. Looking at the DLM/EV belief system without first turning off your God-given B.S. detector is a BAD thing.

I'll tell you what, Hanuman. I've been thinking for myself for twenty years or so, and my 'mind' hasn't exploded yet. When is this explosion supposed to happen? So far, my meditation is just getting better and better. Or is this just one of Satan's tricks, making me THINK I'm getting happier and happier?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 15:27:23 (GMT)
From: hanuman
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Rotting Vegetables
Message:
this explosion has already happened....
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 16:02:34 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: The problem is when facts are lacking
Message:
Like for the whole issue of this hidden (not so much anymore) Indian background.

Given all the facts that are now openly exposed here, you can use your brain and your logic, no need to fear exhaustion or explosion. You can go one step further, that's all IMO.

Rawat's situation makes perfect sense. Not one piece is missing.

What's so scary is not what you believe is scary (the 'mind' - your thoughts or whatever), what's actually scary is to face reality, and confront it to your belief system. That's scary !!

Good luck !!

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:33:28 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks J-M
Message:
I guess Rev Moonbeam Rawat will have to remove those pics from the rogues gallery on his maharaji.orgy site pretty damn quickly.
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:42:07 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: He must be so embarrassed!
Message:
He's gone too far now. The only logical move he could do would be to claim all of them are fake, and Hans was the chosen one.

Of course he can't do this, the other guys would go mad at him ... Let's watch what unfolds.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 06:22:09 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: so embarrassed he'll have to drown it with cognac
Message:
Then wake up with a hangover and blame everybody else.
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:52:14 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Who brought M to the west?
Message:
Hello everyone:

Who brought M to the west? How is it that he didn't stay in India like many other gurus?

Thanks,

Jorge Kreimer

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:06:05 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Who brought M to the west?
Message:
It depends what you mean by the 'West' - England or USA.

Whoever bought M to the West (ie England), it was not Sitaram (who I knew well) nor any of the other possibles mentioned in this thread below.

When M arrived in England in June 71, there was no idea from anybody that he would go to USA. It gradually became a possibility as M talked about it, and I guess the idea was forming in his mind that he might extend his school vacation, and freak out his mother MataJi.

The two practical things that enabled him to go from England to USA were:

-- one the air ticket, bought by the then 5 (I think) US premies, primarily Joan Apter, SitaRam, Gary with two others (Richard ?)

-- the second obstacle to be overcome was getting M a US visa, which was very difficult - Maharaji, myself and Bihari Singh spend several full days at the US consulate in London in order to get this, and it was quite a drama (M being a minor, and not having permission of this guardian, MataJi, etc).

So the real answer is it that was a number of people, and probably each of us involved, when looking back through the romantic haze of time, think we were the prime actor.

Mike

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:18:55 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: What's wrong with Sitaram's version
Message:
Whoever bought M to the West (ie England), it was not Sitaram (who I knew well) nor any of the other possibles mentioned in this thread below.

Would you share with us your version of Sitaram's role in this?

I had a tendancy to believe his story, which is maybe only his view of what happened, and maybe he's been magnifying his own role?

I'd like to set the records straight!

The Archivist

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:24:43 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: What's wrong with Sitaram's version
Message:
OK - here are a few things from the link 'http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/sitaram.htm'

>Sitaram used to be a follower (and 'mahatma') of Prempal Rawat in the early 70s<

He was not a Mahatma, meaning someone that M designated a Mahatma and gave permission to give Knowledge. The only western Mahatma in the early 70's was Saphlanand (an English guy from Plymouth called Brian).

Several of those early premies wore Indian dress (white robes, dhotis etc) and called themselves 'Mahatma', but were not Mahatmas as far as M (or any one else) was concerned - only to themselves.

>As the founder of the American organization, and the person who brought the kid to America..<

As I explained in my earlier email, he did not bring M to America - at least, no more than several other people, all working together for the common goal - Joan Apter and Gary in the US, and myself and Glen in the UK.

>I did all the original satsang, speeches at functions, as well as the first initiations in America.<

I was not in the US at that time, so I don't really know. I don't think he did 'all' the original satsang - several were involved, and I don't think he gave K at all, at least not with M's permission.

>It was her who sent me to America from an India I had never wanted to leave, in 1971...<

I didn't know this - it is probably true, but I don't remember him talking about it at the time.

>and within days, mother asked me to go to America to 'spread the knowledge' or whatever<

Again, I didn't know this, and don't remember him talking about it - which does not mean it is not true.

>When I was in the States I coordinated his first trip with London. London paid for Delhi - London, I paid for London - LA<

When I was trying to arrange for M's visa and flight from London to LA, I made several calls to LA, but it was always Joan Apter I spoke to, who seemed to be the one organizing it all.

>In the case of UK, Gurucharananand was sent there because they weren't making any progress there<

That is not true. I was the exact 100th person to get Knowledge in the West (England) from Gurucharnanand (I looked at his log book !) and at that time (early 1970) there were NO premies in the USA at all - there was one American premie we knew of, Richard Alpert, in England. Clearly there were some US citizens getting Knowledge in India; SitaRam according to him, and Joan Apter got K in India on June 3 1970 (funny how these dates stick in your mind !). These drifted back to USA in late 1970 (after the November Peace Bomb program in Delhi) and early 1971, and prepared for M's London - LA flight in July 1971.

-- Mike

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:56:02 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: And what about the story about his 'death'?
Message:
Looks like after he left m, some time later
everyone was told that he had died from leprosy after drinking his own piss!

Was that disinformation? Do you remember that story?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:17:54 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: And what about the story about his 'death'?
Message:
>Looks like after he left m, some time later everyone was told that he had died from leprosy after drinking his own piss!
Was that disinformation? Do you remember that story?<

No I have not heard that story.

Just to leave the record clear, I liked SitaRam (his real name was 'Will') and we got on well together.

He was no more or less wierd than most of us at that time.

I think most people describe their own participation in an event as being more important than others view it - not necessarily with an intent to deceive, but just because we have such a self-centered view of what goes on around us.

Anyway, alive or dead, I wish him well !

-- Mike


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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:58:50 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Thanks, Mike - very interesting post.
Message:
I would say ***BEST OF FORUM***, but I know J-M is going to use what you've said on his pages. Anyway, it is great to hear more about the early days - it clears up a lot of confusion.

Take care,
Katie H.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:24:53 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: OK, I guess Sitaram's been exagerating
Message:
his importance a bit.

He's definitely been involved at that time, and his version is good for what it's worth I guess. Nice Indian story ...

But beside these details, I found his view and analysis of the phenomenon quite interesting. Don't you think?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:15:21 (GMT)
From: hanuman
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: What's wrong with Sitaram's version
Message:
you say richard alpert was the first us premie..
if we talk about the same guy, the richard alpert from harvard
who did acid with tim leary and ralph metzner, both from harvard,
then this guy was not a premie, he wrote the book 'be here now'
and was a disciple of another maharaji, neem karoli baba...
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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:24:38 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: hanuman
Subject: What's wrong with Sitaram's version
Message:
No, not THAT Richard Alpert. Maybe it was another similar name - my memory is going hazy in my old age !! But it was definitely Richard 'somebody' !!

-- Mike

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:49:48 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: The Richard on this site maybe? (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:02:35 (GMT)
From: Ricahrd
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Richard on this site maybe? No I'm not him (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:12:24 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Read Sitaram's interview, he's the one
Message:
Looks like very few people read those documents !!

The truth about m's coming to West

And forget about all the lies and half-truth you've heard ...

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 13:46:18 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks Jean-Michel
Message:

No I'm not interested in following the guru. I think he might make a good fictional character, that's all.

Thanks again,
Jorge

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:27:45 (GMT)
From: hanuman
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Read Sitaram's interview, he's the one
Message:
very good job, jean-michel, very understandable that M split
from his mother and opened up the tantric section ...
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:59:05 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks Jean-Michel and Sitaram NT
Message:
k
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 05:50:27 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Wasn't it Bob Mishler? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:23:40 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: What about Gary Girhard's Clandestine
Message:
dealings? weren't some of the proceeds from that illicit operation used to finance m's expenses in the beginning.

A wing and a prayer and a few pounds of pot and you put the rest of the puzzle together.

At one point I heard Alan Watts was kinda interested in what M was about, although I don't think he put up any money as he was purported to have done with other fledgling spiritual purveyors like werner erhardt.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:13:14 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: A van load of seekers went overland to India . . .
Message:
. . . from England and connected with a young GMJ. He was invited to come to London and did in 1971. Then he was invited by Joan Apter and others to come to the US and that happened in 1972 I think. Someone else may have more colorful details. I heard that Alan Watts put up some cash but that might have been someone's vivid imagination.

Welcome. There is a lot of very good information on this site. Click on Ex-Premie.org button at the top.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:29:49 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: sounds like we were listening to the same people
Message:
It might have been each other back then, I remember you particulary in India, and we were both in Montrose as well.

Your old picture was what helped me put you and the scenes together, I wish I could find my old photo's , they are buried here some where

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 15:40:26 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Is that you Brian? My long lost twin brother?
Message:
Yes I 'd like to see photos from back then. If you have memories left from India, maybe I can borrow a few.

R

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:01:45 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Who brought M to the west?
Message:
Well, I don't the names of the people who bought his plane ticket to Heathrow but I do know that he came to west for the same reason that most immigrants to the west come.

LOTS OF LOVELY GOODIES and more money to buy it with.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:00:18 (GMT)
From: Des Perado
Email: iWish@Wharfair.dot.au
To: Jorge
Subject: Air India and Arthur Brigham.
Message:
And, of course, JIM THE PRICK.

Des, who reckons the last person on the
planet he would trust is a
lawyer. BUT, Jim is not a bad name
for a racehorse.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:31:30 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Des Perado
Subject: Or a Jockey?(nt)
Message:
Cassidy ?
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:17:05 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why I think Donner should keep his 50 bucks...
Message:
Below, some source of our good friend Anon, Patrick W,
said he knows rawat 'reads the site and has accepted being outed
about his behaviours and now he isnt hiding it'.

WHO do you suppose the lord confided THIS tidbit to?
To WHOM is rawat not hiding his behaviours to at this point?
HOW does anyone know what rawat does during his internet time?

If anyone hallucinated rawat reading the forum, it was me, as Jim and others would attest.
I still figure he did at one point, being the meglomaniac he is
and this site being about him. Although I still want to see
a picture of rawat decked out in crown, mala and bare feet on a pillow and a joint hanging out his mouth typeing madly at Jim,
bottle near the mousepad.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:48:14 (GMT)
From: Twiz
Email: whinavi@bigpond.com
To: bill
Subject: I'LL DRINK TOO THAT!!! (nt)
Message:
Boom, boom!!!
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:32:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I have two alternative subject lines for a reply
Message:
It's hard to pick so I'll use both:

1)

PATRICK WILSON IS A PLANT!

It's old but it still has some mileage. Post then goes something like --

'Why else would he have benumbed us for years with all those hindu names? Honestly, I always thought that all that Rhadsoami background stuff was so dense, any reasonable premie (ha!) would be forgiven for taking one look and thinking 'This may be a cult but I have to wade through all that shit .....'

******

The other, less funny, subject line would have been:

Give me the money in trust

kind of thing. Not too funny but also workeable nonetheless.

Patrick, which would you prefer? Bill?

Okay, I'm beat.

Nap time....

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:26:23 (GMT)
From: Patrick W
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I have two alternative subject lines for a reply
Message:
Ask Mike Donner. He now knows, as you can see, who he should send the money to (not me of course).

Of course I also recognise that this is fundamentally a rumour - 'a may be'.
When this person told me this blasted 'rumour' I was sitting here with Mike Dettmers (who also spoke with this person on the phone as a matter of fact). He commented straightaway that it may be unwise to accept this PAM's report as gospel!

Maybe Maharaji didn't read the site- I don't know -I just passed on the message as simply and clearly as I could. Don't shoot the messenger! I just think it's mildly interesting that there is some rumour coming through that he does pay some attention to all this. It's no big deal. Like Mike said, if this translates into positive action and understanding then things are moving in the right direction. If you think it's misleading -fine. If it gives you hope -also fine.

Now Jim, talking of Nap Time -it's way past mine so forgive me if I cut short this little response -and the Radhasoami stuff is not for the faint-hearted - you're right. Night night.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 13:53:54 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Good Morning Anon
Message:
Hi Patrick,
Great work on the lineage!
I think the reports of m reading this site and forum are only reasonable to assume.
But to what extent and whatever his reactions are.....I think we can guess more accurately than this particular source is willing or capable of providing info.

Since I respect you so much, I will certainly not use the address I saved from that thread.
Since you know Glen, did you post and I missed it where you talked to him about why he feels so ok about rewriting history?
I mean maybe he is a cult member so that explains it, but you have to agree of course that m's 'talks' in the late 70's were not 'colloquial' like Glen insists they were.
Just let me know that someone at least once, in some way called him on this very public lying.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:22:31 (GMT)
From: PatrickW
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: 'Evening Bill
Message:
Since you know Glen, did you post and I missed it where you talked to him about why he feels so ok about rewriting history?

Actually no, I have not talked with him at length about his contribution to the Elan Vital site, however, he did tell me that he did indeed write some of that stuff but that he is not so resposibble for as much of it as is assumed on this forum. I would like to chat with him or anyone about the 'revisionism' , innacuracies or incompleteness of the EV public statements -maybe I will at some point.

I mean maybe he is a cult member so that explains it, but you have to agree of course that m's 'talks' in the late 70's were not 'colloquial' like Glen insists they were.
Just let me know that someone at least once, in some way called him on this very public lying.

Well Bill, I think you can rest assured that Glen is well aware of the criticism his essays have provoked here. I confess I have not very specifically asked him to discuss the veracity of his contributions. Maybe I should read them again first. The impression I get is that he is quite happy to transmit the 'rosy picture' that he himself subscribes to and feels no compunction in doing so.

I really think that if you sent him a letter at that Hove, Elan Vital address he would get it and read it. What you have to accept is that he may choose to ignore to reply to any such letter, calling him on, or accusing him of lies. That is, whether he receives it at his home or at the office. On the other hand he may well write back. My current observation however is that Elan Vital staff are not exactly bending over backwards to address those critics who are self-proclaimed 'exes'. Of course, I imagine he would be only to pleased to offer some explanations to interested newcomers!

See, this is my gripe. I don't see that premies who have become critical, maybe after many years of practicing, are any less deserving of answers than these newcomers. I think there has been a general attitude amongst premies that once you become, as it were, a seasoned premie, then if you continue to ask questions then you have somehow irredeemably lost the point. I just think this is such an unkind and in many ways, telling attitude.

Incidently Bill, thanks for the respect that you say you accord me. That's nice of you to say so. Of course it's mutual.


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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:53:48 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: Philg@free.net.au
To: Jim
Subject: Give JIM THE PRICK the money in trust!!???
Message:
Are you kidding us or what shithead???

:)
Ps. Know any good
solicitor's???
I'm so horny the
crack of dawn is
in danger around
me. ;)

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 10:58:40 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA, kick this culthead off.
Message:
We've seen it all before. Braindead cult member anonymously sprays nasty insults all over the place, showing us all the wisdom they have gained from kissing Captain Rawats arse for a few years.

Ugh. They really are a sad lot.

Thank God I'm out of it.

Anth the lucky escape

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:23:20 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I have to agree, Bill
Message:
Not that I'm doubting Patrick (Anon), but I just can't picture it. I believe he might have read the site, but I just can't imagine him reading the forum. Sheesh, I wouldn't want to read it if I were him! I would guess that he might get edited extracts of posts from forum monitors, but that that is probably it.

BTW, Bill, I am SO glad you stopped thinking everyone was Rawat:)! We were pretty nice about it, though, weren't we?

Love,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:35:53 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: I have to agree, Bill
Message:
hi ya'll i have been in email touch with a person who has substantially verified that m has read site at least once, has used site to download documents once and is reportedly somewhat more comfortable now that the x-rating stuff is out...that is, about his preferance for cognac, 2 pack a day marolboro habit and that he eats meat...

nothing about his comfort with being outted as greedy, using spreading of k as an excuse to accumlate wealth, abusive and blaming demeaning behaviour,nor his convenient revisionism, etc..

based upon my confidential emails i will be paying the $50.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:39:06 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Did he download the boob picture??
Message:
Did yer contact tell you that, Mike?


Love, Marianne

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:52:07 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Are you suggesting narcissistic Master Bation
Message:
or Maharajism?
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:43:00 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Rev Moonbeam's new ''honesty'' is spin control
Message:
You said Rev Moonbeam ''is reportedly somewhat more comfortable now that the x-rating stuff is out...that is, about his preferance for cognac, 2 pack a day marolboro habit and that he eats meat...''

The PWKs have known about this for years and it made him more ''human'' and endearing to them. This stuff was deliberately leaked as part of his westernization (revisionism) into a televangelist to reach ''middle America.'' He probably spent my money on a market research study.

But church-ladies don't know about the Jagdeo stuff and the manslaughter ''wobble dance'' or the other insidious stuff.

Rev Moonbeam's newfound modesty and honesty is all PR for an ailing business. I feel sorry for the church-ladies but not the Rev's co-conspirators.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 13:37:49 (GMT)
From: bill--what spin!
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Translating 'somewhat more comfortable'..
Message:
Hi Pat, this is not aimed at you of course!

His towering arrogance would not be 'comforted' by outing of anything, think about it, even though that is what the insider said.

You know how it really is, he was pissed, said swear words, and this whole 'acceptance' is really a 'fuck you, I do what I want'.
His present day PAM's are maybe seeing him do more, but only the pam's, and they are telling WHOM? If they wont even tell us with thier names, what premies are THEY confiding this to?

It is not accurate as it came to us and the reality has been modified by whomever.

By the way Katie and Jim and Brian and all those from the earlier days, yes you were kind about all that!

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 13:40:41 (GMT)
From: bill--keep your 50 till
Email: None
To: bill--what spin!
Subject: the reports come back less spun....nt
Message:
klugh
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 14:10:52 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill--keep your 50 till
Subject: excuse em waa, Donner,
Message:
Pardon my bad french Donner, I dont know, sometimes I just get too hot about him. Your post said it well. You did divide
the message along the right lines.

You know, before you and Mike Dettmers came along, we had more of a struggle here with premies and spin. We were fought line by line and the constant tweaking of details and the endless assaults I think made us hyper reactive here.
Somehow Jim was able (or compulsive enough?) to keep this from becoming a satsang site when the rest of us were exhausted.
I think my reaction to the 'somewhat comfortable with' line
isnt all that wrong, but I have to remind myself that I can relax now, the two M.D.'s are here, and I thank you for that.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:40:08 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Hey, donner
Message:
As I said, I just can't picture it, but oh well (cognac, marlboros, and meat???). I still don't know if he reads the forum - maybe just the site?
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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:47:58 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Hey, donner
Message:
not clear to me either...and we only know...second hand..that he read it once...maybe twice...some time ago...and not necessarily the forum...or that he is updated by anyone, nor that he is spoken to about it or asked any tough questions about its content.

do we expect/hope that m will change really. that he might change hooked me for many additional years...after each phase he would always revert back to devotional stuff...remember duo, humanitarian leader, part time instructors, western instructors, etc. etc. etc...then he would blame someone(s) for screwing up and revert to devotion/guru worship. becasue he is hooked himself.

i choose not to hold my breath that he is willing to change, and if so he has no credibility with me anymore...nor leadership abilities outside the worship/cult context anyways.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:53:10 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Only people who know if Rev Moonbeam reads FV
Message:
are his co-conspirators, the inner ''business'' circle. Most Intructors and EV honchos are church-ladies who do not even realize that they are in a cult and being used to pay the interest on mortgages and other debts.

Even if he became a ''good'' guru I am not interested. In a way I'm glad he is so weird because it put me off HIM first and now it's cured me of all guruism and personality cults.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:09:10 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Hey, donner
Message:
I don't expect that he will change - and I guess I gave up on that a long time ago, because of other experiences in my life. Frankly, I think it is pointless to expect ANYONE to change, although people do change all the time, and I'm glad when they do it. I just have given up on expecting it. It makes life a lot simpler.

I didn't have the deep relationship with M that you and Dettmers and so many other people on here did. I can see that there is both compassion and some kind of caring in the way you regard him (probably because you are a good person), but not worship - or maybe even respect - anymore.

I agree with what you said about credibility - he has no credibility with me anymore either - and even if he did change and deal with the harm he has done, he would only have the credibility I would give to any other person who I thought was trying to do the right thing.

Take care, Michael -
Katie

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:16:28 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Hey, donner exactly nt
Message:
nt
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