Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:02:14 (GMT)
From: May 25, 2001 To: Jun 01, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


la-ex -:- Rolling Stone article-Is Alan....Alan Imbarrato?nt -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:44:41 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- I think it's gotta be -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:52:01 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- I think it's gotta be-I'm 100% certain.Do you... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:49:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- He would know me, I think -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:24:19 (GMT)

Jim -:- A little perspective via a little absence -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:37:29 (GMT)
__ Michele Deradune -:- About the Forum software -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:19:15 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Use Sir Dave's Search Engine -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:19:03 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Don't drink and drive on Forum Five -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:24:43 (GMT)
__ Dr. Ruth -:- Instead of debate, reach for your mate..... -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:30:57 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- instead of Forum reach for a cigarette (nt) -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:13:44 (GMT)
__ __ Pauline Premie -:- Jim, try meditation (nt) -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:30:03 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- A little perspective via a little absence -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 16:08:48 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Some ideas on limiting time on the forum -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:58:07 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- hey, about 'the addiction' -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:57:37 (GMT)
__ Mili -:- Comrade Jim delivers morale boosting speech -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:13:47 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Mili = FRAUD -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:39:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Hi John T -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:40:15 (GMT)
__ __ silvia -:- Comrade Jim delivers morale boosting speech -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:32:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- strange -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 12:41:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Mili, you are seriously desparate, aren't you? -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:01:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- your imaginary friend -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:18:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- they come to disrupt the forum, -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:45:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- gardening -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:58:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ silvia -:- hahahahahaaaaaaaaaa -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:33:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Mili is a FRAUDSTER -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:41:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Silvia B. Sommer -:- Fuck you MILI!!! FA- take this guy out of here -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:19:17 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Mile logs on here to get bored /attempt sarcasm..? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:59:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- Mile logs on here to get bored /attempt sarcasm..? -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 11:55:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Mili is a stupid FRAUDSTER -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:45:33 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Go stare at a clock and think about death. -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:20:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- They don't call you Grumpy for nothing! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 12:42:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- You are the first person who has called me Grumpy, -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:09:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- They don't call Mili a FRAUD for nothing! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:42:25 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- A little perspective via a little absence -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 08:37:50 (GMT)
__ Forum Admin -:- We do have the technology, Jim -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:11:28 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Hey, FA -- go for it! -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:20:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Limitations -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I Object! -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:42:00 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- mexico has a way of making forum off topic -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:53:21 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- mexico has a way of making forum off topic -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:28:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- that's my favorite feature on usenet -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 16:22:18 (GMT)
__ __ Selne -:- oh was Costa Rica no? beem there too nt -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:58:54 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- A little perspective via a little absence -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:52:12 (GMT)

Jim -:- Maharaji's role in the smuggling scandal of '71 -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:17:54 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- It was 1972 Hans Jayanti in India -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:38:36 (GMT)
__ Silvia Sommer/Bernz -:- Jim? HELLER? I hope you get it. :) NT -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:50:02 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Here's Some Synchronicity For You -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:37:21 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Scot J's post to Janet... -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:26:52 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Maharaji's role in the smuggling scandal of '71 -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:25:59 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- He is a bloody coward... -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:40:37 (GMT)
__ silvia -:- Good story. I buy it. GROSS NT -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:27:51 (GMT)
__ __ Scot J -:- Good story. But it is speculative. -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 03:26:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Good story. But it is speculative. -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:28:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott -:- but credible! -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:15:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scot J -:- but credible! -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:49:21 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Good story. I buy it. GROSS...I love you Silvia NT -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:52:24 (GMT)

Giggles -:- Maharaji - 'Persona Non Grata' that's what he be! -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:16:44 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Go team go! -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:01:04 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Looks like the Word is spreading !! (nt) -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:22:24 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- maybe JM but... -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:43:08 (GMT)

Deborah -:- Any exers planning ClassAction Suit -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 19:46:18 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Marianne posts on Cal. cult lawsuit option -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:13:45 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Class Action v. Individual Suits -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 20:46:02 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Class Action v. Individual Suits -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:10:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- Class Action idea -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 09:14:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Devil's advocate II -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:09:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- We're talking law-not what we think is right -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:31:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Would be quite a hoot -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:34:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Well said, Francesca (nt) -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:23:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Devil's Advocate -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 17:12:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- See my post to Francesca above -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:49:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- good one! I'll respond later NT -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:56:18 (GMT)

G -:- De Guru's Face -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 19:27:53 (GMT)

Silvia Sommer/SB -:- Moron Rawat said K doesn't make you a better perso -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 18:56:12 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Shit Silvia, that's sounds like dire straits -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:09:36 (GMT)
__ __ SB/Silvia -:- hahahahaha -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:55:39 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- Hi, sorry to hear your problems... -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:27:19 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- wow!!! -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:06:09 (GMT)
__ __ S -:- wow!!! -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:23:04 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Don't hold back Silvia! -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 19:25:04 (GMT)
__ __ Silvia -:- I didn't get that -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 20:06:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Pardon me, my netiquette is inadequate. -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:01:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Sweet of you -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:58:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- It was complimentary:-) -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 20:38:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- It was complimentary:-) -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:02:58 (GMT)

RobertB -:- scientology to prosecute detractor -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 18:31:36 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Long article from Canadian alt. newspaper - link -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:35:57 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Sorry - and here's the link -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:46:32 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Cult Awareness Network is Owned by Scientologists -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 20:04:16 (GMT)
__ __ Carl -:- I don't want to start rumors, but is it true that -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:04:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Yes, a Ponzi scheme, here is the link.... -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 20:10:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- earthlink.com is one of CANs links... -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:49:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- yup. started by genius computer scientologists -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:56:04 (GMT)
__ toby -:- scientology is a totalitary business sect -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 19:21:30 (GMT)
__ __ RobertB -:- scientology is a totalitary business sect -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 20:51:01 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Typical perverted and ridiculous US justice (nt) -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 18:41:20 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Scoop: Rawat is NO US citizen !! -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:09:14 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- Sorry JM - The're mistaken -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:40:44 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Michael, and a question -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:25:02 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Then Michael -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:02:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Then Michael -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:47:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jeabn-Michel -:- Hypothesis a -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:21:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Hypothesis a -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 09:28:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Hypothesis a !! -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 10:16:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I don't get it either -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:14:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Yes, J-M what is going on???? -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:57:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Yes, J-M what is going on???? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:17:20 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- I also remember when he became a US citizen -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 18:55:24 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Michael ... -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:53:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Michael ... -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:50:10 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Michael,couldn't this have changed since you left? -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:51:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- Alien marrying US citizen.. -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:50:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Possibly, but why? -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 22:32:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Or was the problem fixed.... -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:26:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Or was the problem fixed.... -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:25:56 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- Now that makes sense, still angry anyway N/T -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:45:00 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- DANG! -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:14:26 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- DANG! -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:27:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- DANG! -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 18:53:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- DANG! Maharaj's a fraud, Mili... -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 20:17:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- You are pathetic -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:14:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Everyone is going to leave and Mili will still say -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:42:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- You are pathetic...thank you, Mili! -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 16:03:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- LOLOLOLOL on mili DITTO -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:46:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Yes, I got your email....Silvia -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:08:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Right on Cynthia---------------n/t -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:20:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- You are a fraudster -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 09:51:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I think that Mili has something here -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:38:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- You are pathetic -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:09:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Not so. -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 22:17:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- A third or less of the program happened -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:18:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- This is not the 1st time it happens -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:13:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard Wallace -:- Heh -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 22:39:46 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- and most of Rolling Stone article online now -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:11:24 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- I thought he had US citizenship... -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:28:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- He's an Indian citizen, that's all -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:34:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Really? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:03:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- What strated the ball was the Combat review -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:03:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- hahahahaha -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:39:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- He's an Indian citizen, that's all -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:43:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Will -:- Should be deported from the great U.S. of A.! (nt) -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:39:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ kev -:- Should be deported from the great U.S. Just so.. -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 22:32:25 (GMT)

bill -:- la-ex asks, who would premies like for next master -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:47:52 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Mother of child abuse victim of maha cult speaks -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:57:04 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Questions for a student of maharaji -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 07:02:06 (GMT)


Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:44:41 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rolling Stone article-Is Alan....Alan Imbarrato?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:52:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I think it's gotta be
Message:
la-ex,

I think you're on to something here. I knew Alan on and off after he was an instructor and he came to several communities I lived in (LA and SF). I used to work for the Peace Press in LA (I think it's gone now), which was there from the war resistance days.

Alan told me that when he was in 'the movement' he used to go there for printing services. Richard Profumo (M's former press secretary in the 70s, at his shoulder during the pie incident and in the Rolling Stone article and video clips with the press) was also in the movement, and was the publisher at Peace Press in the late 70s. Richard helped me get a job there. Due to Richard's own conscientious objector stance during the war, and the respect the president of Peace Press had for Richard (although he thought we premies were crazy), the place was full of premies, EST devotees, and interesting people of all radical stripes and nonaffiliations. We were Timothy Leary's publisher. We also did enviro stuff, and a lot of satin backstage passes and posters for the rock-n-roll industry. Also all that rainbow premie stationery for Gunther Scholls and David Wieder's company.

I really think you're right about that being Alan. I don't know who else it could be, but if someone knows Alan from further back, they may know the answer. I always liked him because he had a direct common sense, and was around after I moved out of the ashram.

--f

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:49:44 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I think it's gotta be-I'm 100% certain.Do you...
Message:
know where he might be now?

Here's what I know about him:

He mentioned numerous things about his past with radical politics, Haydn/Fonda etc....I think Alan has to be the one from the article. Alan had a curious intellect and was quite political..also became heavily involved with est later on...

He was an instructor candidate and started giving knowledge reviews that were powerful, in that they affected peoples lives...maharaji heard about them and told him to stop doing them.
I heard that the last time he saw M, he openly challenged him about something, and I think that's when he was given his 'walking papers'.

He was extremely anti-M after that last incident.

I have heard that he was in southern california trying to develop some sort of est type thing for corporations to help improve productivity and communication.
I think he was trying to produce an 'infomercial' promoting it.

Question: Would he remember you?
Would you know how to contact him?
It would be a hoot if he would re-read the Rolling Stone article and comment from his present day perspective.
If Alan wanted to comment on EPO about his time with M, I am sure it would be powerful and insightful....

What should we do next?
If we contacted him, we could give him the EPO site for starters...maybe he would post something...

La-ex

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:24:19 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: la-ex
Subject: He would know me, I think
Message:
la-ex:

Even though there's people you only know for a short while, I think he'd remember me because we connected at one time. He was very helpful -- with just a few comments -- in making me consider NOT going off the deep rebellious end after I moved out of the ashram. His arguments and thoughts were -- at least at the time I thought -- we reasoned.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to get in touch with him. If you find out where he is, you can certainly let me know. His latest project, though, sounds like the 'corporate training' thing that a lot of premies and exes are getting into, although I have the utmost respect for Mike Dettmers in that regard.

--cheers --f

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:37:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A little perspective via a little absence
Message:
1) This site is fantastic. It's the real world in the sense that books and ideas and communication are the real world. It's a bunch of people, most honourable, trying their best to understand more of how best to live and trying, as well, to right a great wrong. Indeed, in terms of the latter objective, 'trying' doesn't say enough. We HAVE made a difference. We've helped each other immeasurably. We've even planted good, healthy seeds of doubt in countless current cult members. As for Maharaji, he sat on a hot poker in France with our name all over it. Yes, we're making a difference.

2) The 'addiction' people suffer from here just has to have an answer. We just have to figure it out. What if telephones were like this? What if telephone technology sprang from nothing, as did the net, but it allowed people to have this non-stop, party line with countless people dropping in and out of the endless conversation? Surely, people would find some good, solid strategies to unwire themselves so they weren't simply sucked into the high-tech turbine.

I've lurked here for a bit since getting back to town, knowing that, while even that's addictive, especially with all the recent developments in France for example, it's easier to stay offline for, say hours at a time, if I'm not directly involved in a discussion. But there just have to be better strategies for those of us who simply can't stay out in spite of ourselves.

I wonder, does anyone know of any technology that could limit one's involvement to a set amount of time daily? Just something to think about. But yes, I imagine that over time we humans will develop all sorts of new strategies to deal with the potentially engulfing nature of forums such as this. Admitted, for some of us -- like me -- it's a problem. I do think we should bounce this around a bit. Someone's got to have some good ideas. Personally, I know I want to stay involved for some good time to come. I can't pretend it's not still interesting. It is, as long as the cult keeps fighting, as long as Maharaji keeps thriving, in other words, as long as the truth has to still get out there. But I also don't want to feel consumed by this habit. I think we should bounce this around a bit.

One idea could be something like fixed forum times. But even that takes more discipline than I've ever been able to muster. That's why I think a limiting technology might help. I'd be happy to limit myself to four fifteen minute periods a day, say, if that were possible. Or even one full hour. (Especially, if I could then run over to Laurie's where we DON'T limit access and lurk like crazy when she's not looking!)

3) The premies posting here are more and more pathetic all the time. I started a habit of talking with them years ago and find it so hard to resist. But yes, I envy people like Michael who've never really settled into long arguments with silly cult members. Who knows? Maybe some don't do it because they know others will. Or maybe they really don't feel the same compulsion. Whatever, I envy that. To me, the idea of wasting another moment on a Cat, CD or Mili is indefensible. It's worse than eating junk food. Okay, maybe not. It's just as bad, though.

4) No, it didn't taste like chicken. It tasted like iguana.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:19:15 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: micheled@bga.com
To: Jim
Subject: About the Forum software
Message:
I find that the software here on the Forum, though user-friendly in the sense that it is very easy to navigate, is also very slow because of its format. It is time-consuming to try to find a thread for instance from a week previous without going through some time and trouble -- compared to other softwares I have seen.

May I recommend that some of you look at the forum software on www.living-foods.com? I believe their discussion board is called 'conferences' -- shouldn't be too difficult to find, much like this is not hard to find. But I find their forum-type software much more user-friendly than what you are using here, and have been told that you can get the software for free as well. I posted very actively on that website back in December and January or so, but left when they started deleting every post they had a big disagreement with. (They are into all-raw vegan diet and would for instance delete posts from people who wanted to say they felt another kind of diet was better -- or who posted off topic.) But never mind that. It's still very nice how that software works. If ex-premie.org switched to that software I believe you would find that you would be able to manage your time here ever so much more easily! It is tidier, more organized, and gives some great preference options. One other thing I love about that software is that every time I log on there it automatically knows who I am and if I have given permission for it to print my e-mail address, both my name (whether a nick or real name -- I posted there as Michele D.) are there automatically every time I posted. I didn't have to retype my name every time and e-mail every single time like I have to do here. And yet at the same time, there was no membership or password required. It's good stuff.

www.living-foods.com

(I hope they're still there, but surely they are!)

Cheers

Michele (not an ex)

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:19:03 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Use Sir Dave's Search Engine
Message:
Sir Dave's Search Engine

Well Michelle, it was inevitable. You are now in Phase 2 of Forum participation: 'Now that I'm comfortable here I want to improve the way the forum works.' You should know that the good people who slave away at the forum 23 hours a day will only listen to constructive critique if the critic is willing to help do the work. Only fair I believe.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:24:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't drink and drive on Forum Five
Message:
Or become a premie and then you will be able to post that FV is sooo boring and stupid but all the while madly rushing through every post and replying with mind-bending non-sequiturs.

The Pussies and the Milies are doing an excellent selfless service to fence-sitting lurkers by being so irrational and inane. They must enjoy boredom so much to spend so much time on a forum that they find boring. But I guess boredom is the natural state of mind for someone who has listened to the same boring blather from the Hamster for 30 years.

Most enjoyable post and welcome back.

PS I also thoroughly enjoyed your preamble to Rick's story about Doug which was also wonderfully told.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:30:57 (GMT)
From: Dr. Ruth
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Instead of debate, reach for your mate.....
Message:
Try sex, Jim. It's a great diversion.
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:13:44 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: instead of Forum reach for a cigarette (nt)
Message:
lkjh
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:30:03 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Jim, try meditation (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 16:08:48 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A little perspective via a little absence
Message:
Yes Jim, I can relate to the all consuming thing. As I've said before, I was lurking before lurking was cool. While constructing our house as designer/contractor/owner/builder, I took about a year off from the forum. It was then I realized how much time I was spending reading here - not to speak of how much time is spent posting as well. Designing and building my own house gave me a huge sense of accomplishment and, maybe for the first time ever, something to be proud of myself for.

So I would be first in line to tell anyone, there is a huge world out there. Climb a mountain, learn a foriegn language, fall in love, whatever but keep this forum in perspective. It represents just one aspect of this long strange trip. I know that for some there remains a huge emotional and psychological gumbo that involves old wounds from childhood, destroyed belief systems, betrayal of trust, and on and on. I respect and honor the process of healing, but there are many additional ways to take charge of one's life and live a full life.

On limiting involvement: Don't fight with tar babies*, you'll just get more pissed off, waste your time and end up with tar on your hands. The CW's and Mili's of the world only want attention and have no intention of conversation.

* From the probably un-PC Uncle Remus story about catching a rabbit by making a boy out of tar. The rabbit hits the tar baby to provoke a response and gets his hands stuck in the tar and trapped.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:58:07 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Some ideas on limiting time on the forum
Message:
Hey Jim -
Some ideas here:
1. I have found that if I don't post, I am less likely to log back in to read other people responses. This works - if you can make yourself do it. Also, I don't post on or read the forum at work.

2. Re technology: You can get the 'Net Nanny' kind of software that will block you from this site if you want (it's for parents who want to control their kids' computer access). It will also limit your time on the computer to specified hours. I had one called 'Surfwatch' that came installed on my own computer when I received it. (Wish I'd had one when I lived with my ex-husband - snicker! Then I wouldn't have gotten all that spam e-mail about porn sites.)

3. The FA's can limit you to a set number of posts (two a day or whatever) as they said.

BTW - we were up on the northern end of the Olympic peninsula a few weeks ago (Brian's mom lives in Sequim) and saw Victoria across the water :). Didn't have time to go there, though.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:57:37 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: hey, about 'the addiction'
Message:
Come to think of it you might be able to make a little green on the side if you can market this idea correctly.

Bring back the meditation timer only this time hook up a cattle prod to it.
When your time is up, say 15 minutes, or whatever you have allowed yourself, ding goes the timer and a 10 second count down before a nasty jolt of electricity courses thru your body.
If that doesn't work, you can hard wire the timer to automatically shut down your computer with a pre programmed lock out of say 18 hours or so.

Tonette

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:13:47 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Comrade Jim delivers morale boosting speech
Message:
Clap, clap, clap, clap! (Yawn)
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:39:19 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili = FRAUD
Message:
Liar
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:40:15 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Hi John T
Message:
Did mili post here under different names?
I have missed his posts if he has posted here recently.
What new is up that has everyone reading him?
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:32:16 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Comrade Jim delivers morale boosting speech
Message:
mili,

what's wrong with you? Didn't your mama teach you better manners?:) LOL

Hey, how is the imaginary friend doing, powerful still? Beat them out of your life, is no use for him, is all a joke. Quit supporting his rich lyfestyle and if you don't believe us ex-premies grab a pen a paper and start multiplying: Guru took all for a biiiiiiig ride! Good luck

Silvia, more blissed than ever. No more GRACE needed than the one I was born with, honest!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 12:41:16 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: strange
Message:
Sylvia,

I don't have any imaginary friends. They are all living, breathing people. Down to the last one. Perhaps we are talking about YOUR 'imaginary friend' here?

I'd love to discuss this with you further, but I've made it a rule of thumb not to talk seriously with crazy people.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:01:08 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili, you are seriously desparate, aren't you?
Message:
Mili,

Give it up. Name calling isn't a logical argument to rational thinking here. Isn't it really your ego that's upset? If so, you're really not following the cult programming. Yet you persist.

You're in a cult, Mili. Stuck, imbedded, with no mind to process thoughts and you call us crazy?

Never mind, there's no real conversation with you; you're just upset because we know your Guru is a conman, liar, and a fraud.

Mili, has he given you a ride on his yacht? The Gulfstream V?

Have you ever seen them? Been to the residences? No? Yes? Tell us about what you think your ''humble'' teacher, goomraji is doing with more luxuries than any non-working, immigrant to this country deserves.

Can't do it? Thought SO!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:18:03 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: your imaginary friend
Message:
Mili,

Prem Rawat is a living, breathing person, and just an ordinary (but rather strange) person.

'Maharaji' is an imaginary character that Prem Rawat portrays, it's just an act.

In actuality, Prem Rawat is not your friend.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:45:10 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: G
Subject: they come to disrupt the forum,
Message:
they especially fight with the people who are explaining, with names, without generalizing anything, talking directly about the insanity of maharaji's world and want to call others crazy? Premies like him, and the other around,make fools of themselves and their poor defense is to attack others? BS!

Ye, if my depression can be called craziness, crazy I was and HIS MASTER IS THE ONE WHO CAUSED ME TO STAY SICK TO TELLING ME TAHT IF I MEDITATE IT WILL GO AWAY!

Ignorants!

Hi G!

After days and days of rain is sunny here. Planting my garden, having fun. Hope you are too.

LOVE 2 u,

silvia

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:58:38 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: gardening
Message:
I've heard some funny ads on the radio about gardening, some of the lines go like this:

It started out small, I just planted a few herb seeds. Then it got more serious, I got into shrubs and azaleas. ...

Finally I found a support group that talked about support for climbing roses.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:33:49 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: G
Subject: hahahahahaaaaaaaaaa
Message:
but today is rainning again sniff, sniff...and it will continue to rain all thoughout the weekend! I have to get out of here. It must be the lakes. LOL
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:41:07 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili is a FRAUDSTER
Message:
How can we take you seriously when you don't explain the fruad you committed?
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:19:17 (GMT)
From: Silvia B. Sommer
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Fuck you MILI!!! FA- take this guy out of here
Message:
calling us/me crazy. What a mother fucker you are Mili. Vivious malicious person, like your 'GOOOOOOD' unloving teacher!

Fuck off, you, low entity! Get a fucking life, go in your bote and get lost, you asshole!!

I love you but I don't like you, you low life!!'

YUCK!

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:59:45 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mile logs on here to get bored /attempt sarcasm..?
Message:
Some knowledge of the soul you got going there. Got anything useful to say? If not, fuck off.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 11:55:46 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Mile logs on here to get bored /attempt sarcasm..?
Message:
Got anything useful to say? If not, fuck off.

There you have it - the ultimate argument of the ultimate 'scientist'. Useful meaning, what? Some more dirt on Maharaji?

What a stupid blockhead you really are.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:45:33 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili is a stupid FRAUDSTER
Message:
who cannot even begin to explain his dishonesty.

Eh, Mili?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:20:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Go stare at a clock and think about death.
Message:
You enjoy that sort of thing, given your post about the death watch web site.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 12:42:31 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: G
Subject: They don't call you Grumpy for nothing!
Message:
That's what the 'G' stands for, isn't it? ;o)
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:09:18 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: You are the first person who has called me Grumpy,
Message:
and I think there is a bit of projection of your own feelings going on here. Remember, you are the one who enjoys telling people they are going to die.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:42:25 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: They don't call Mili a FRAUD for nothing!
Message:
What do you say?
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 08:37:50 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A little perspective via a little absence
Message:
So if you were to meet up daily with a group of the people that post here...maybe have a few beers, talk about whatever and generally enjoy their company, would that be an addiction and something you needed to refrain from?

Should the technology to cull out the jerks really be considered something different with negative elements?

I've yet to see a Forum with a better bunch of writers.

If the your time on the Forum is keeping you from curing cancer, yeah, quit. Otherwise just make it worth your while.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:11:28 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: We do have the technology, Jim
Message:
I could simply block you and just let you post one hour per week:)
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:20:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Hey, FA -- go for it!
Message:
ARe you serious? Well, let me think about it a bit. But really, you serious? You could set this on automatic or something? Please explain further. How about set times and the like?
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:45:54 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Limitations
Message:
Well I could

a: Just block you entirely (ie Read-only), then let you in whenever I remembered, like say when Law & Order was on TV.

or

b: Limit the number of posts you can make daily (pick a number)

But I can't set on/off times like you would a garden sprinkler.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:42:00 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I Object!
Message:
Just kidding, Jim.

I missed you while you were away and you sound great. I've been off and on here for a while because sometimes I read the threads and think ''I have nothing to add.'' So I go read a book or do something else. I do come back, I must admit:)

I don't feel so much addicted to F5 as committed to it. Everyone who has been here on a steady basis has contributed so much. I believe that this site has done more than we know to help folks out of the cult, as well as make the little man's life a bit more difficult.

This website and forum are helping people in an unprecedented way. The died in the wool premie true believers may be hopeless, but just this week so many new cult folks have come to call with their stories and their losses.

You limit yourself anyway you need to, Jim (like you need my permission)! Please know I appreciate your presence here a lot, despite what others may say. Yes, sometimes you do piss me off, but that's good too. Isn't it amazing to be free of that, that:____________you name it!

I knew you've been lurking....Jim
Love,
Cynth

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:53:21 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: mexico has a way of making forum off topic
Message:
I remember our first link up at the university. I did peruse Usenet groups at first.

I looked and lurked a lot on Usenet and the .alt sites and noticed an alt.religion and once in a while read
For some reason our workplace did not have alt.cult.maharaji I know because I was an alt.cult.movies fan and the name would have stood out in my list of usenet alt.cult groups.

by the time I found ex-premie.org I was pretty much used to goofing off via the usenet in my spare time but the forum with the web interface was so interesting, NOTE especially after I read all the other pages on EPO.

It is very addicting and does not taste like chicken.
I have not answers. Someone said today the more you post the more you come back.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:28:42 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: mexico has a way of making forum off topic
Message:
Selene:

Actually I spend a lot more time discussing bicycles on Usenet and on a listserve. Usenet servers and clients are easier to use, for me. And as soon as I get really disgusted with myself I just mark everything as 'read' so I have to wait for new posts.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 16:22:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: that's my favorite feature on usenet
Message:
Marking threads as read I mean. I find it easier to use also.
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:58:54 (GMT)
From: Selne
Email: None
To: ps
Subject: oh was Costa Rica no? beem there too nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:52:12 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A little perspective via a little absence
Message:
You said: 'Personally, I know I want to stay involved for some good time to come. I can't pretend it's not still interesting. It is, as long as the cult keeps fighting, as long as Maharaji keeps thriving, in other words, as long as the truth has to still get out there. But I also don't want to feel consumed by this habit. I think we should bounce this around a bit.'

I know what you mean, and it's especially obvious to me, too, when I'm away for a while. When I was away recently I swore not to go back to the Forum, because I remembered that I have ten million other things to do, like, mainly I'm rewriting a book. That and my other work currently cause me to be on the computer for hours a day, but it's quite challenging (what I'm 'supposed' to be doing), and much more interesting to go to F5. The trouble is, as you say, if I go so far as to post, I then have to check to see if anyone responded, and on and on...

Although the cult-thing is interesting - hell, it's fascinating the way it's unfolding - and we may indeed be doing lots of good, it isn't central to my life at all. But this is the first time I have experienced online buddydom, and it's pretty high-level stuff, far-out people and interesting, as you said.

I've been wondering about some configuration in my computer that would make it easier to get to my book than the forum. One thing that's been helping a lot is that I've been going out hiking every morning now it's not winter, and that restores perspective. The cyber-world is really a virtual universe isn't it - well, duh - but I'm amazed.

love Katie

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:17:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's role in the smuggling scandal of '71
Message:
Hi everyone,

Costa Rica was great. Lots of bugs, some beautiful beaches. Saw lava flowing in the middle of the night and took a few jungle cruises. Laurie, who is still a non-premie (sigh!), ate an iguana. Beautiful country but I think I prefer Mexico for its vibrancy. Costa Rica was like a central American Canada in some respects. The last night we did the ultimately uncool traveller thing (no, we didn't buy matching Tilley hats -- not yet). Had burgers (mine veggie) at T.G.I.F's.

Congratulations to Katie and Brian. And congratulations as well to JM. Don't know if I'm going to post regularly over the next little while but I thought I should share this story.

Some of you might have noticed a nicely-put post by one 'ScotJ' in reply to Janet's wonderful post about her dream about Jagdeo. Scottie's an old ashram friend of mine from a few Canadian cities. He contacted me recently, explaining that he truly stumbled upon the site after finally getting online and just poking around. I won't tell his story as he's preparing a long 'Journey' entry which I'm sure will be interesting for all of us. But one thing he told me I thought I'd break here for something to do; it's really no more his story than any of the rest of us Ottawa ashramies who put up with Gupta for as long as we did in the late '70s.

Gupta was this big energy, unsophisticated, irascible Indian premie who landed on our ashram doorstep sometime in '77, I believe. The story was that he'd been very close to the Hamster as a child, had often hoisted the future Lord of the Universe on his shoulders and the like. Gupta was there, he claimed, when Shri Hans died and Maharaji took over. Gupta was all over that.

Anyway, Gupta, who was then probably around our age now, mid-40
's, was desparately trying to get to Malibu but Maharaji ordered him to stay in Ottawa until further notice. Weeks stretched into months, months into years and, last I heard, Gupta's still in Ottawa selling houses. He'd be good at that; I can just imagine.

There was no question but that Gupta did indeed have some sort of private history with Maharaji. There were calls, third-party messages. Gupta had stories. Other Indian PAMs and old mahatmas all knew who he was. He really did have Maharaji's ear a bit although it was also clear that Maharaji didn't miss him as much as he missed Maharaji. In a way, his incessant devotional push to get to Malibu was a bit funny. But it was touching as well; after all, we were all devotees and who were we to question another devotee's path back upstream to spawn and die or whatever.

So living with Gupta was a trip. He laughed at our satsang, as any self-respecting old-school Indian cult member might. Every day he'd make this giant subji -- for himself -- with a Little Sambo-size stack of chapatis to go with it. And then there was the matter of his morning cleansing rituals. Gross! But, well, that's India, I guess.

Anyway, here's the thing. Talking with Scot the other day we played a little 'premie geography' -- what about this one? How 'bout her? -- like that. I asked about Gupta and Scot told me something I'd never heard before. All the time I lived there, I never really knew why Gupta thought he deserved to end up at the Hamster's holy lotus feet. Never really thought about it and just assumed it was because he'd been so close to Maharaji back in the early sixties. But Scot told me otherwise. Apparently, Gupta told Scot that he felt that Maharaji should be -- and indeed, was, as Gupta couldn't imagine otherwise -- extremely grateful for some great sacrifice Gupta had made for his Lord. Apparently, Gupta had taken the fall for Maharaji on that big smuggling scandal back in '71, the one noted in Time magazine and the like. Remember? Kid guru and followers busted with jewels and money upon returning to India? I think this was the event. It's the only one I know of. DLM flew a few 'jumbo jets' of premies over to India for Hans Jayanti; they got busted smuggling and, well, I never heard anything further.

Anyway, Gupta told Scot that he not only took the fall for Maharaji but actually did some jail time for him.

Now, maybe this isn't related to the '71 scandal but it's the only smuggling scandal I'm aware of. Scot, I think, got the imression that that was the one Gupta was referring to. However, even if Gupta was telling the truth ( and I KNOW Scot is), it might have been a different matter altogether. What I can say, though, is that Gupta, who I lived with for many more months than I ever really planned on, was no liar. He sure didn't seem like one, that's for sure. Moreover, if this were true it would go far to explain just why he was coming over to North American then and why he expected something from Maharaji as he clearly did. Maharaji stonewalled him, like I say. He only took a few calls from the guy and never let him cross the border. And if Gupta's story's true, no wonder, eh?

So the parallel to the Indian car accident is a strong one, isn't it? Maharaji cowardly letting others take the rap for his own transgressions?

If anyone can shed any light at all on this story, please do. Hey, maybe it's all bullshit. Maybe Gupta was just lying to Scot but, for all the reasons above, I sure don't think so.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:38:36 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It was 1972 Hans Jayanti in India
Message:
The details of the smuggling sound true except it was 1972 India trip, I believe. Word went around Prem Nagar about the 'smuggling' but it was explained that the jewels were really gifts M was bringing to give to the devoted mahatmas and bais - how generous of him. Supposedly Bob Mishler accidently left the briefcase behind and immigration, while doing a routine check, discovered the jewelry/watches. In retrospect, it was one of those stories one could sort of believe the official version but if the actual smuggling attempt was true, it would only add to GMJ's bad-boy mystique. Either way, it was 'such blissful lila'.
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:50:02 (GMT)
From: Silvia Sommer/Bernz
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim? HELLER? I hope you get it. :) NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:37:21 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Here's Some Synchronicity For You
Message:
Jim:

I work with a team of three other people doing writing evals for a university. The last time we met, we somehow got onto the topic of cults. I took the leap and told my fellow worker bees that I used to be in a cult, which they all thought was pretty interesting. The lone guy in our group asked me which cult, and when I told him, he exclaimed, 'I was the camera man with Jacques Sandoz. We were in the customs room filming Maharaji's arrival and we were standing right there when customs busted the guru for smuggling.'

He was filming the entire scenario when, at last, someone stepped over to him and put their hand over the lens and took the film away from him.

I intermittently asked him questions about the customs brouhaha, but since we were supposed to be working, it was difficult to have a conversation, and so I'm not sure exactly what he saw. I could ask him more, but I'm not sure what to ask him exactly.

Pretty damn small world.

M

PS: Does Iguana taste like chicken?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:26:52 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Scot J's post to Janet...
Message:
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Jagdo rapes me in a dream; in struggle,I kill him
Message:
A significant dream, so detailed and vivid. I see the little town of the opening of the dream as the humdrum life we all want to transcend, the bus ride as the group adventure we all embarked upon when we felt we were members of Maharaji's communtiies. 'Jagdeo' may represent more than himself here. He may stand for the abuses inflicted upon people who trusted in various untrustworthy others associated with Knowledge. The rape apartment, described in amazingly extensive detail, where the real intention of Jagdeo becomes clear, is like the realization of how much, how closely, the involvement with Maharaji affects you. Your voice, too weak to reach others, though it is calling out in desperation, is like the voice of your conscience muffled by the overlaying of your programming that everything is fine. The tapeworm - all the beliefs that you have internalized from others over the years that are not really from yourself. The slow-to-notice-you or take you seriously police are like the non premie people who don't understand what you have been through. The somewhat helpful police who take your 'samples' and notice you at least : the 'Ex' people on this site, mostly anonymous, but nevertheless here for you.
Exiting Maharaji's world isn't easy. It's a psychological battle on many levels, in many dimensions of our consciousness. Some of these levels are deep, and irrational, but are none the less very serious, exact, and truly meaningful. As is obvious with your posting, it is a process requiring real courage, including the courage to post these struggles for others like myself to read, who are going through similar trials.
I'm working on a big Journal entry these days, full of dreams and offerings from the unknowable end zone of our own awareness, and so I really appreciate you putting one of your subconscious adventures up here. Thanks
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:25:59 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji's role in the smuggling scandal of '71
Message:
Hi there Jim

Glad you enjoyed your hols.

Nothing surprises me about the behind the scenes activities of the one and only ...I mean ....not of all of us are perfect but I for one wouldnt let anyone take the rap on my behalf. I guess the reasoning would be ( if the story is true of course) that the little Indian nobody can rot in jail ( and meditate !)as 'service' while the great guru continues the great work. And what's wrong with that oh ye of little faith? :)

Btw got your 2 emails( along with the other million people on your email list) re the virus but thankfully read them both so took no action !

Ciao

Dermot

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:40:37 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: He is a bloody coward...
Message:
Hi Jim glad you guys had a good vacation. My thinking on this whole thing is that once a narcissitic, selfish guru always a narcissistic,selfish guru. M cares nothing about anybody but himself. He shows that again and again, it is all an act for him to get his followers to do what he needs them to do and beyond that there is nothing. He is a bastard pig with no consideration for anyone but himself.
May he not harm any people anymore, that is my wish. At least I and all of us are out of his evil influence.
Mercedes (who is working at home today and has time to play in the computer)
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:27:51 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Good story. I buy it. GROSS NT
Message:
yuck
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 03:26:24 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: Good story. But it is speculative.
Message:
I don't remember where I got this understanding of Gupta's status, but I have the impression that I had to assemble it from inferences and pieces of information I collected over time. Some of these did come from Gupta himself, but other pieces may have come from someone in the national office. I called up, wanting some background on this amazing person they sent to us, who exploded onto our little backwater ashram scene like a rhino into a monkey house. He was the source of many a hilarious trans-cultural scene on the premises. He would get the whole house involved in preparing gulab jamuns for Maharaji, packing them in a large gulab jamun-proof container, and driving them out in the middle of the night to the airport, mailing them TOP PRIORITY to Malibu. 'Scot - GRRREAT!' 'Jim - GRRREAT!' he would growl, with a blast of heary irony. (As in, 'Great devotee.') It was like a gust of wind, throwing you off your balance a bit , but sort of invigorating. We all started calling each other various 'GRRREAT's. We tried to be great. I remember our house treasurer, Brian Gaudet, coming into my room to excitedly give me his report on the finances. We were pretty flush, apparently. We had amassed enough to swing a trip to Spain to get darshan at Maharaji's next program. After we got back, we heard from National that we were not to fly to Europe without invitations any more. Oh well.
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:28:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: Good story. But it is speculative.
Message:
GREEEATTTTTT! -- oh yeah, I remember now. The truth of the matter, though, when you think about it is that we were the biggest group of adult weenies I'd ever come across. Sury? Oh my god! Brian? Pierre? Scot, we were all such weenies! Still, some fun memories though, huh? My-life-as-a-weenie.....
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:15:17 (GMT)
From: Scott
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: but credible!
Message:
How hideous! We were soooo especial! I made once with Gita ice cubes for him, a pillow for his feet, cleaned bottles of white wine for him in a birthday party he was invited to attend.

Whow! You remind me of the days when I would be in the ashram day after day doing service. I wanted to get into de ashram and Francisco, from Chile wouldn't let me. I guess I was maya...I had just finished a contract with Channel 13, I was a model...My service was MOST of the time cleaning stuff. It seems I needed to be brought down to made me feel 'humble'.

Thanks for sharing that. Are you the Scott I met at Helen's?

Be well!

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:49:21 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: Scott
Subject: but credible!
Message:
The only Helen I know doesn't have the big K . . . and lives in Alberta. I am a fellow pillowmaker, however. The majority of the Calgary community were project pillowmakers at one time. Greetings!
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:52:24 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: Good story. I buy it. GROSS...I love you Silvia NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:16:44 (GMT)
From: Giggles
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji - 'Persona Non Grata' that's what he be!
Message:
French Associations Against Entry in Europe of American Sect Head

Story Filed: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 12:54 AM EST

PARIS, May 22, 2001 (Xinhua via COMTEX) -- Two French associations Tuesday called for a European ban against the head of America sect 'Elan Vital' who plans to attend conferences and give lectures in many European cities on May 26 and 27.

''Guru Maharaji' should be declared persona non grata across the Schengen area,' announced the two associations on their Web sites Combat and Voltaire Network.

'Relevant institutions should consider the trouble to public order that the stay of an international sect head in Europe and, particularly in France,' demanded the two associations with former followers of the sect in Combat's Web site www.vih.org/combat.

In the area defined by Schengen Accord, travelers can pass freely across land frontiers in the 15 signatory European countries.

Guru Maharaji, who is also called 'Prem Pal Singh Rawat,' is an India-originated American. He set up 'Elan Vital' in the United States in 1971 and claims 'having been sharing a simple yet profound message for over 30 years with those who wish to hear it.'

He travels in his private plane and chairs conferences all over the world to teach meditation skills that he claims possessing uniquely.

With money collected through sales of cassettes and financial contributions solicited from his followers, the guru lives a 'sumptuous' life, according to his former followers.

'Elan Vital,' together with 170 other similar organizations, was declared a sect by the French National Assembly in 1995.

Copyright 2001 XINHUA NEWS AGENCY


Copyright © 2001, Xinhua News Agency, all rights reserved.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:01:04 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Giggles
Subject: Go team go!
Message:
Is it too true to hope that we are actually getting somewhere?

Tonette, who watches and waits for restitution to those most harmed.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:22:24 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Giggles
Subject: Looks like the Word is spreading !! (nt)
Message:
xx
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:43:08 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: maybe JM but...
Message:
honestly not sure if the French action will spread across Europe /world .....at least I can!t see it happening in the UK. As much as this particular case ( given our past involvement as premies )is cool ....I think the the French attitude is pretty unique.

Also ....don't want to be a party pooper or anything.....but I'd have more respect for the French assembly banning the 170 organisations if it also banned that other scourge on humanity ......the Roman Catholic church (cult big league) but I reckon all the French action is designed to consolidate and protect the Catholic church. The assembly would ban Islam IF it could get away with it. :))

Hmmm maybe I'm just being TOOOO cynical. It's all interesting stuff though !!

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 19:46:18 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Any exers planning ClassAction Suit
Message:
I'm serious about this question...I met a woman you was a Flower-Pushing Krishna Devotee. Her children were abused. Would like to know how to go about this endeavor. If people want to talk discreetly, we could arrange to exchange emails.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:13:45 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Marianne posts on Cal. cult lawsuit option
Message:
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Been There
Subject: Fraud lawsuit againt Moonies by former members
Message:
Been There: The legal decision you mentioned is Molko V. Holy Spirit Association, 46 Cal.3d 1092 (1988), a decision by the California Supreme Court concerning whether former Moonies could sue the Unification Church for fraudulently inducing them to join the cult, for intentional infliction of emotional distress based on the fraudulent and deceptive cult behavior, and for false imprisonment.
The California Supreme Court held that these former members could sue the Unification Church for fraudulently inducing them to join the cult, and for intentional infliction of emotional distress, but not for false imprisonment. The decision does not mean that the state supreme court found that the cult had acted as the former members claimed. It just gave them the right to sue for these legal claims when lower courts had said that such suits violated the Freedom of Religion Clause of the First Amendment. This case also held that one of the former members had a right to sue for restitution of $6,000 he gave to the cult.
As the court discussed the legal issues, they mentioned the case of Tony and Susan Alamo Foundation v. Secty of Labor, 471 US 290, 305 (1985). This is a United States Supreme Court decision issued in 1985. Isn't this during the time that the 707 DECA project was underway in Miami? That case holds that minimum wage laws are applicable to religious groups.

In reaching its decision, the California Supreme Court stated: 'The legal question is simply whether a religious organization can be held liable on a traditional cause of action in fraud for deceiving nonmembers into subjecting themselves, without their knowledge or consent, to coercive persuation...

'The challenge is to the church's practice of misrepresenting or concealing its identity in order to bring unsuspecting outsiders into its highly structured environment.'

In finding the right to sue for fraud, the court also stated: 'For it is one thing when a person knowingly and voluntarily submits to a process involving a coercive influence, as a novice does on entering a monastery or seminary.... But it is quite another when a person is subjected to coercive persuasion without his knowledge or consent. While some individuals who experience coercive persuasion emerge unscathed, many others develop serious and sometimes irreversible physical and psychiatric disorders, up to and including schizophrenia, self mutilation and suicide... The state clearly has a compelling interest in preventing its citizens from being deceived into submitting unknowingly to such a potentially dangerous process.'

In finding that the former members could sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress, the court stated: '..the church's continued deceptions might well be seen as conduct breaching plaintiffs' trust in the integrity of those who were promising to make their lives more meaningful. So viewed, the church's actions might well constitute an abuse of a 'relation or position which gives [the church] power to damage the plaintiff's interest.'

So, the bottom line is that cults may be subject to civil liability for fraudulently inducing people to join and remain involved. Sound familiar?

Marianne

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 20:46:02 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Class Action v. Individual Suits
Message:
I just wanted to chime in here that 'class action suit' gets thrown around a lot like it's some kind of simple operation. It isn't.

Although some lawyers have gotten extremely rich bringing class action lawsuits, especially in the securites and products areas, they are extremely complicated and very expensive.

One of the biggest hurdles is you have to have some kind of 'class' that is defined, property constituted, and the court has to approve it. Basically, you have to bring a suit on behalf of a class of people who were all damaged by the same behavior of the defendant. This is difficult in any situation, but frankly in the case of claims against Maharaji or EV, it might be almost impossible.

It's true that many people were damaged by what Maharaji did to us. But everyone is different, so how to bring an action on behalf of a whole class of them? Are we talking money damages, emotional distress, what? And how do you quantify that, especially when on its face we all did what we did and gave what we gave voluntarily? Now, we all know that what is 'voluntary' in a cult is a subjective thing, but how do you prove that? Very, very hard.

On the other hand, individual ex-premies might well have claims about what happened to them in the cult, that could be the subject of lawsuits, like molestation, asking for money under false pretenses, sexual harrassment, etc., but those are individual circumstances and handled on an individual basis, not as part of a class of people.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:10:34 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Class Action v. Individual Suits
Message:
Very good feedback. Thank you.
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 09:14:48 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Class Action idea
Message:
He destroyed our constitutionally protected right to worship God as we see fit. He and his co-conspirators led us to believe that he was the one to lead us 'back to our Father'. Now, we are a confused group. Some are Godless. Some have adopted other strange ideas to compensate. We want him to return us to our original pre-mindfucked(K) state or compensate us accordingly.
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:09:30 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Devil's advocate II
Message:
I only hope you're joking.

You said:

He destroyed our constitutionally protected right to worship God as we see fit.

Fundamental misunderstanding of the constitution here. It is because of your Constitutional right of freedom of religion that you were allowed to worship God as Maharaji the Rat--and worship him you did. (As did I.) If that right were not protected, you would not have been allowed to worship such a Rat.

You have no Constitution right to be restored to some other view of God that you had before freely choosing the Rat-god. You are also free to worship something besides the Rat-god, or nothing at all.

You can't blame 'ol Ratty for everything.

--f

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:31:36 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: We're talking law-not what we think is right
Message:
Yes, I was joking. Was laughing about it all day in fact. I was thinking of the absurdity of a trial on this issue. Rawat is there of course. But more importantly I want that Tallahasee judge who was the last one in the Gore-Bush voting scam

Can't you just imagine a good ol' boy like that dealing w/Guru Maharaj Ji

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:34:31 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Would be quite a hoot
Message:
Actually, the trial of M would be quite a hoot! Would make for a good skit!

I agree that the law does not cover what we think or feel is right, however. That's why the clche: 'There oughta be a law against it!' When you go to the law, you do not get justice or fairness, only rulings based on the law. Justice and fairness may be a byproduct, however!

Of course, in some good old boy's courtroom, you may get rulings based on the good old boy's twisted interpretation of the law.

LOL --f

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:23:41 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Well said, Francesca (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 17:12:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Devil's Advocate
Message:
How do you prove that Maharaji DIDN'T 'lead you back to your father,' especially when there are undoubtedly programmed premies who would testify that he did? And what does that mean, anyway?

What is objectively wrong with being 'godless' (millions of atheists say it's actually correct) or having 'strange ideas?' And how could a court possibily ever determine that?

I agree with you in principle that Maharaji ripped us off on a spiritual level and that is very damaging, but I think a court would have an impossible time ever dealing with that. It's all belief systems and religions and they just don't want to get into that, no matter how bizarre the religion.

I truly believe that it is in the 'court of public opinion' that Maharaji will get his just desserts. I have said it before, but I think EPO has effectively put Maharaji out of the propogation business in the West, and will gradually peel off many of his remaining followers. It's happening all around us.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:49:49 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: See my post to Francesca above
Message:
as we all know, anything can happen in court

I thought everyone would see the absurdity

Sorry

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:56:18 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: good one! I'll respond later NT
Message:
S
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 19:27:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: De Guru's Face
Message:
Suggestions for improvement/variations welcome:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
De Guru's Face (sung to the tune of Der Fuehrer's Face
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When De Guru says, 'I is De Master n' Grace'
We BOLIE! (phhht!) BOLIE! (phhht!) Right in De Guru's face
Not to love De Guru is a great disgrace
So we BOLIE! (phhht!) BOLIE! (phhht!) Right in De Guru's face
When the Rawats say, 'We own de world and space'
We BOLIE! (phhht!) BOLIE! (phhht!) Right in Rawat's face
When the Rawats say they'll never bomb our minds
We BOLIE! (phhht!) BOLIE! (phhht!) Right on Rawats' behinds

Am I not the superman Brahman pure superman
Ya you is de superman Super-duper superman
Is this Miragey land not good?
Would you leave it if you could?
Ya this Miragey land is good!
We would leave it if we could

We bring the world to order
Bolie Rawat's new world order
Everyone of foreign thought will love De Guru's face
When we bring to de world disorder

When De Guru says, 'I is De Master n' Grace'
We BOLIE! (phhht!) BOLIE! (phhht!) Right in De Guru's face
When De Guru says, 'I is De Master n' Grace'
We BOLIE! (phhht!) BOLIE! (phhht!) Right in De...Guru's...face!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Der Fuehrer's Face
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When der Fuehrer says, 'We ist der master race'
We HEIL! (phhht!) HEIL! (phhht!) Right in der Fuehrer's face
Not to love Der Fuehrer is a great disgrace
So we HEIL! (phhht!) HEIL! (phhht!) Right in der Fuehrer's face
When Herr Göbbels says, 'We own der world und space'
We HEIL! (phhht!) HEIL! (phhht!) Right in Herr Göring's face
When Herr Göring says they'll never bomb this place
We HEIL! (phhht!) HEIL! (phhht!) Right in Herr Göring's face

Are we not the supermen
Aryan pure supermen
Ja we ist der supermen
Super-duper supermen.

Ist this Nutzi land not good?
Would you leave it if you could?
Ja this Nutzi land is good!
Vee would leave it if we could

We bring the world to order
Heil Hitler's new world order
Everyone of foreign race will love der Fuehrer's face
When we bring to der world disorder

When der Fuehrer says, 'We ist der master race'
We HEIL! (phhht!) HEIL! (phhht!) Right in der Fuehrer's face
When Der Fuehrer says, 'We ist der master race'
We HEIL! (phhht!) HEIL! (phhht!) Right in der Fuhrer's face

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 18:56:12 (GMT)
From: Silvia Sommer/SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Moron Rawat said K doesn't make you a better perso
Message:
person! Ha! I just remember him saying that in a program, I have the video. Hmmm...I wonder why? Is it maybe because you drive some people nuts???

LARD, YOU ARE A TOTAL MORON!

Because of all your stupid statements/teachings you have created very weird ideas in your followers head, and some premies I know are simply BAD thinkers/people. They think that they have the right to use other people to get what they want and they do not have to return anything borrowed...cause all come to to them BY THE GRACE OF THE LORD!! Bullshit! Total bullshit!! Your premies,feet kissers are irresponsible members of society, many are thiefs, the opposite of R.Hood: Premies steal money from the poor to give to you! and my ex-premie husband refuses to pay child support because he learned I may get married soon. My credit is getting ruined. My bank is closing my account because I bounced so many cheques! No I don't hate you, it would take too much of my energy, You are GARBAGE!!

Listen maharaji, you got me furious here. Clean up your act and your books because I'm getting stronger and stronger. Truth is what I liked before meeting you and I, (I, get it?) that haven't changed. Meditate a lot then, stop your mind if you want, but learn that you are not exempt from fault; you are responsible for what comes out of your mouth, as I'm. What you do is wrong and some of us are walking behind you. Time... you'll see. Justice will be served. I want every pennie I ever spent supporting your life style! Money that your crime partners diverted somewhere. I detest you maharaji, I really do. Watch it, easy, STOP>. THERE IS A 'GOD' force, whatever and IT is in my side. You wish to feel what I'm feeling.

You have no morals maharaji, and you IMHO may ended up in jail. You better have good connections in India; you have blood in your hands. You shouln't ever drive again, you drunk in any part of the globe, you ass! Prostitute seeker; liar; robber; ass, period. FUCK YOU MAHARAJI!!

ps: I'm furious because my checking account is being close because I bounced so many cheques! Can't find work. Grrrrrr......

Tao says: all is ok and nothing is ok, because what is true is it. Rotten vegetables? No way. A bad premie/person I married long a go doesn't want to be responsible. There you go Rawat. For the fruits of your premies the world will get to know you: You ruin people, you transform them in a very weird without conscience person. Screw you maharaji. Watch me. The best is yet to come!

Silvia Sommer

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:09:36 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: netguest42@yahoo.com
To: Silvia Sommer/SB
Subject: Shit Silvia, that's sounds like dire straits
Message:
Hey, you have kids, got food in the house?

E-mail me your address and I'll send $20. Not much but it's something.

I enjoy your posts but you really do need a job.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:55:39 (GMT)
From: SB/Silvia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: hahahahaha
Message:
I know! I'm not here all the time! I have SOME schooling but didn't graduated, so, I put applicatons at many places and nothing yet. But, maybe it's supposed to be like this for now.
How else could I had the courage to tell my name if it wasn't that I come here. Is time to spill the beans I think..
Thanks for the offer. I have survided for years thanks to my credit cards and I am about to consolidate my debt. I'm broke. It'll be fine...

Yeah, I have a teenager who eats like a giant, he is 14 and 6'2!!

Thanks lots Tonette. I enjoyed reading bellow a post you wrote to banana bai about suicides. AHA!

Love u 2,

silvia

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:27:19 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Silvia Sommer/SB
Subject: Hi, sorry to hear your problems...
Message:
I turned my back for a minute and you came out as Silvia! Money problems are the pits, I've had them all my life because I just can't find a job I can do for very long. I don't have children to support but it's still a struggle alot of the time just surviving. Perhaps we should all start writing letters to rawat asking for our contributions over the years to be returned?

Hope you are o.k (maybe the idea of being celibate and living in an ashram wasn't such a bad one after all!) :)

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:06:09 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Silvia Sommer/SB
Subject: wow!!!
Message:
Let that anger out of your sistem sister!!! Hope you feel better and hope you find a way to recover financially.
My thoughts are with you and your child/children. There are legal ways to make deadbeat fathers pay. Hope you find some.
Love,
Mercedes
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:23:04 (GMT)
From: S
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: wow!!!
Message:
Thanks for the advice. I did the court thing and next is jail for him. I called the Deputy today.

Deadbeat dads suck! But Rawat suck more!! LOL

Hi M!

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 19:25:04 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Silvia Sommer/SB
Subject: Don't hold back Silvia!
Message:
Yeesh...You're uprooting trees and trailers and the locals think its a Tornado...
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 20:06:27 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I didn't get that
Message:
very well. English is my second language.
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:01:12 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Pardon me, my netiquette is inadequate.
Message:
Well I apologize for my indescretion Silvia...silly me...my netiquette is inadequate.

And yes, it was complimentary but it was also about making you feel comfortable about allowing yourself to release that ass-kicking fury. I certainly don't think you deserve to keep it inside. It's part of healing.

The Good News!
Now you know what rock your power's hiding under

Be well Silvia

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:58:55 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Sweet of you
Message:
I couldn't contain myself, I lost control. I don't enjoy getting like that at all and as you said is simply venting, healing, but also a need to said to him what I think.

I feel dupped to the top. Because I was the aspirant contact and being also the video librarian I've watched toooo many videos, too many, so sometimes his words come to me throughout day in such a disturbing way that I become enraged. I do not act up 'outside' but inside. Is like a fire burning and a want to talk to him personally to let him know 'how precious he's to me'. :0

My son for example may say 'maybe he's a real master and that sets my frustration; the idea that my son finds him appealing at times is too hard to handle. I find stuff around that reminds me of him and realize that this GUY, this impostor probably is going to be somewhere, always. My breath... What an idiot he's.
Thanks for your kindness.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 20:38:04 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: It was complimentary:-)
Message:
Admiring the strength and force of your post! Your English is fine BTW!

John.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:02:58 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: It was complimentary:-)
Message:
thanks, sometimes it seems like I cannot even express in my own language: Ask the Spanish forum! LOL I left A. so long a go taht when I started to post on el FORO premies would post making fun of my spanish. hahahahha poor head mine...aughhhhhh

:)

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 18:31:36 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com
To: Everyone
Subject: scientology to prosecute detractor
Message:
I'm certainly not worried about fat boy and his hired goons, but this little true crime story makes me wonder if the site owners here are safe:

Scientology Critic Convicted

and here's the same story from securitynewsportal.com:

Newsgroup critic of Scientology ARRESTED in Canada
Written on Tuesday, May 29 @ 06:50:21 EDT
Topic: General News
Henson, the anti-Scientologist newsgroup critic of the Scientologist, who skipped to Canada to escape from legal action by the Scientologist has been busted in Canada. Apparently, Henson was arrested by heavily-armed police at a shopping mall.

He is being held incommunicado. There is a bail hearing tomorrow on this and then we'll find out exactly what's up.The SNAFU here is that his lawyer Guidy Mamann was poised to file the necessary papers tomorrow. The background to this story is attached...continued...

Well we said in our previous message that there was no point for Hansen to run to Canada... Canadians always give back US fugitives (except those facing a death sentence) and that there are Scientologist in high places in Canada...


Here is the background to this story

The jury convicted him of interfering with a religion -- likely due to his habit of picketing near the cult's properties -- but failed to reach a decision on two other patently idiotic charges brought by Deputy District Attorney Robert Schwarz, who, it is claimed, is either a Scientology dupe himself, or on old Elron's posthumous payroll.

So the jury split 9/3 on Schwarz's charge of terrorism and 10/2 on his nearly equally moronic charge of attempted terrorism.

That's right; a prosecutor -- someone who managed to graduate from a university, then a law school, and then pass the California Bar Exam -- actually brought charges of terrorism against someone joking on Usenet about firing a nuclear warhead at a group of people scattered all over the globe.

We conclude that California must have the slackest educational standards in the world if it can, in good faith, award anything higher than a beautician's license to someone unable to noodle out the obvious absurdity in Henson's comment.

Law and Order

Henson's trial has been roundly condemned as a true kangaroo court affair, with serious irregularities of procedure favoring the prosecution and excluding the bulk of Henson's evidence, thereby virtually shutting down the defense. So it's perhaps no surprise that he was convicted on at least one charge.

On 13 May Henson posted to the alt.religion.scientology newsgroup doubts that he'll get a fair sentence as well. 'Late last week I talked to Garry Davis, the parole officer who is writing the report for my case. He expressed the opinion that this was more of political case than a criminal one, and that the political pressure to put me in jail was very high,' he wrote.

The parole officer reckoned Henson would get something like a year in stir for his conviction on interfering with a religion, which, we'll admit freely, is a serious offence where stiff penalties are entirely appropriate.

But numerous peculiarities in Henson's trial leave considerable doubt about his actual guilt; and calling Scientology a 'religion' really is an awful lot like calling Dunkin' Donuts a 'restaurant'.

Political Embarrassment

So as the handwriting on the wall became legible, Henson skipped to Canada and set up in Toronto. He's since retained a local lawyer through whom he filed for political asylum with the Canadian government.

We're not terribly excited by his chances of seeing the application granted, as the Canadian government stands to gain little from humiliating Uncle Sam in this way.

But Hanson's move, taken as a publicity stunt, is sweet. Here's a guy who hails from a country that bleats about democracy and liberty 'til it's blue in the face, lectures the world on human rights like a scolding nanny at every opportunity, and then convicts a fellow for exercising his right to criticize, protest and picket against an immensely well-heeled, and some say, immensely dangerous, cult.

'Democracy' and 'liberty' in the sunny State of California never looked more like the empty incantations they really are.

And who knows; the Canadian courts may well put political convenience aside and consider Henson's application on the merits. And in that case we think he's got a decent chance of qualifying. He certainly looks to us like someone facing punishment by the state for expressing his beliefs in public.

Oh and as for that spineless country of Canada... well I doubt they will let him stay. They tend to give back to the United States any criminals that aren't facing the death sentence... and I also suspect the Scientologist probably have quite a few friends in high Canadian places....

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:35:57 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Long article from Canadian alt. newspaper - link
Message:
He didn't do his research very well - In 1977, the Ontario Medical Association - the group that governs the province's doctors - asked the College of Physicians and Surgeons to investigate whether the Scientologists' use of e-meters and personality tests - both core Scientology so-called technologies used to recruit and audit members - meant they were practicing medicine without a license.

He didn't do his research very well. There's a history in Canada wrt Scientology. Here's an excerpt:

'That kicked off a conflict that later saw the Toronto police raid
the organization's downtown headquarters, cart off millions of pages of documents, and lay bare the Scientologists' campaign to fight the OMA and the Ontario government.

In March, 1983, three buses of cops raided the offices and, from the pile of documents, Scientology and 18 people were later charged with infiltrating two law firms, the College of Physicians, the OMA, the Canadian Mental Health Association, the Ontario Provincial Police, the Metro Toronto Police, the Attorney General of Ontario and the RCMP. Almost ten years later, Scientology and some of the people were found guilty of some charges, and ordered to pay $250,000.

After losing in court, Scientology then went after a court officer. Scientology sued Casey Hill, the prosecutor, claiming he misled a judge and tampered with documents. The case was dismissed, and Hill sued for libel; in 1991, he won $2.1-million
in damages, the largest libel award ever in Canada.
'Scientology decided that Casey Hill was the enemy and it set
out to destroy him,' the court ruled. 'It levelled false charges
against him. It persecuted him on these charges. In summary,
the evidence suggests that Scientology set upon a persistent
course of character assassination over a period of seven years
with the intention of destroying Casey Hill.'

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:46:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Sorry - and here's the link
Message:
I honestly don't know how the first paragraph became the second, but I'm sure you've figured it out.

And here's the link:
'Destroy him utterly'

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 20:04:16 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Cult Awareness Network is Owned by Scientologists
Message:
Hi RobertB,

It's interesting that the Scientologists would go to such lengths--a sure sign of a cult.

I think it's important for those who are uninformed to know that the Cult Awareness Network was taken over by the Scientologists and now exist as an organization online which supports cults/religious''rights.'' They gone to great lengths to malign the character of Margaret Singer, a reknowned psychologist and cult expert. The url below links to the page where they trash her:

http://www.cultawarenessnetwork.org/singer.html

CAN also is maligning the reputations of Rick Ross and Steve Hassan because they have been vocal about the Church of Scientology.

Here's another tidbit: I happened to be surfing on my cable TV and saw a snippit about Tom Cruise, a self-proclaimed Scientologist. Seems that he's under so much stress since his separation from Nicole Kidman that he's hired, you ready?...he's hired a full-time Yoga Guru to help him relieve stress. Weird but true.

I wouldn't recommend making bomb treats, btw; I believe there's a law about internet postings regarding this as a result of bombings which have taken place in the US. Obviously, it was unlikely the guy had a nuke, but just the same, I don't recommend making any such threats against anyone.

Also, for any new comers here, on the home page of Ex-Premie.org, there are links to legitimate websites who support people trying to exit cults. Just click on links and you have a choice of websites within that page.

Thanks for the info,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:04:49 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I don't want to start rumors, but is it true that
Message:
the 'earthlink.com' people are heavily controlled by Scientologists?

Did I read that here a few months ago, or what?

Something about the earthlink honcho being a fabulously wealthy Scientologist, now with the microscope on the personal data of thousands, er, millions of unsuspecting etc. etc.

Anybody remember this?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 20:10:59 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Carl
Subject: Yes, a Ponzi scheme, here is the link....
Message:
... From an article on C-Net. It was Earthlinks co-founder, Reed E. Slatkin.

Here is the link on C-Net

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-5919221.html

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:49:23 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: earthlink.com is one of CANs links...
Message:
So I assume it's part of the Scientology cult, but don't know for sure.

If you go to the ''cult awareness website'' 'cultawarenessnetwork.org' you can see the link. They also provide ''support'' by a shrink who's a Scientologist and others.

It's very telling because I use Netscape and when I was on that page and clicked on ''What's Related'' no anti-cult sites came up. The only ones that came up were related to ''freedom of religion'' type websites.

Interesting.

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:56:04 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: yup. started by genius computer scientologists
Message:
its true.
which makes those commercials they run all the more insidious.
'theyre watching you. compiling your data. selling your habits' at earthlink, we would never do that'
[never sell it to anyone else, that is, because its too valuable to us]
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 19:21:30 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: scientology is a totalitary business sect
Message:
Well it is true,
Scientology is well protected in the US by the government and
VIP*s like Dustin Hofmann etc.
They just ignore the fascistoid behaviour of this group.
The german government tried to handle those craps differently,
and were heavily critizised by the US-Government.
They must have powerful connections.

But this is mainly an US - Problem.

Toby

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 20:51:01 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: scientology is a totalitary business sect
Message:
They're certainly not afraid of public attention. Their lawyers here in Washington used to be Williams and Connolly - the same people who handled the glass chips in Beech Nut baby food, the National Enquirer suits and Tyson's rape trial - They bully and litigate.

I think Rawat is basically a chicken, afraid of his own shadow. He is more in the class of a Jim Baker - the guy who flipped and hid under the defense table during his scam trial.

Rawat's anxiety level always seemed kinda high for someone who was perfect. When I was a premie, I was always a little bit afraid that he might have a major anxiety attack on stage and the whole thing would just kind of end.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 18:41:20 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Typical perverted and ridiculous US justice (nt)
Message:
xx
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:09:14 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Scoop: Rawat is NO US citizen !!
Message:
According to French authorities, who've very carefully checked
Mr Rawat upon his arrival at the Pontoise airport,
(boy, he must have been pissed)
he is NOT an American citizen.

He has NO American passeport, it looks like he's asked
for American citizenship, but it's still 'pendant' .....

Don't know what this means, but might explain some of these
strange corporate systems ....

Looks like Mr Rawat will now be under close scrutiny by EU authorities who don't like Indian gurus very much.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:40:44 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Sorry JM - The're mistaken
Message:
Jean-Michel:

I have no idea what is going on in France, but I personally coordinated Maharaji's US citizenship process through an expert immigration attorney. I was there when he was sworn in as an American citizen, and immediately following the ceremony, I filed his application for a USA passport, which he received. His passport was subsequently renewed on several occasions during my tenure in his service.

Michael

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:25:02 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Michael, and a question
Message:
do you know if he renounced his Indian citizenship on that occasion?

I unerstand that in order to become a US citizen, you have to renounce your previous citizenship ..... true ?

Then there is something fishy here !!

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:02:57 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Then Michael
Message:
that means that he got to hide it somehow, and that will worthen his case I guess.

I'm going to tell them ....... Thank you !

They're already very much pssed with him !!

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:47:59 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Then Michael
Message:
Jean-Michel,

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that 'he got to hide it somehow.' When I was involved, there was never any desire or attempt to hide the fact that he had become an American citizen.

Regarding your follow-up question above, it is not always necessary to renounce your former citizenship when you become and American citizen. For instance, I did not renounce my Canadian citizenship when I became an American. In Maharaji's case, he did renounce his Indian citizenship.

What exactly is going on in France regarding this matter? I don't get it.

Michael

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:21:58 (GMT)
From: Jeabn-Michel
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Hypothesis a
Message:
M smellt something fishy, and didn't want to risk having his US passport confiscated in Paris.

He already had his Indian passport ready with visas as an alternative, and in case the Indian passport was seized, he was ready to leave using the US one .......

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 09:28:21 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Jeabn-Michel
Subject: Hypothesis a
Message:
Jean-Michel,

The problem with that hypothesis is that he no longer has an Indian passport.

Michael

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 10:16:52 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Hypothesis a !!
Message:
Yes, I know.

I don't know what to think about the whole story.

I've frowarded all this information to authorities. I guess they'll sort it out !!

Maybe he's got his Indian citizenship back, or lost his US citizenship for some reason, or ......

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:14:21 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: I don't get it either
Message:
I'll tell them all this, and they'll sort it out I guess ......
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:57:41 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Yes, J-M what is going on????
Message:
You say that French officials are pissed at M - what's that about? I really do appreciate all of your efforts but I can't follow the implications of what you are reporting. Is any of this in the press?
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:17:20 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Yes, J-M what is going on????
Message:
They're pissssed at him because he didn't land when he was supposed to, tried to avoid inspection landing at another airport and a couple of other things I don't have the details.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 18:55:24 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: I also remember when he became a US citizen
Message:
In fact wasn't it a photo op? I vaguely remember a pic of him taking the oath with shoulder length hair and the mafia moustache. He may be using both passports to travel in order to cover his tracks.

The law on dual citizenship is complicated. The US allows Canadians, Irish and Israelis to carry two passports but does not recognize other dual citizenships. However other countries have challenged this successfully and it cannot be enforced unless criminal intent is proved.

I still have my South African passport eventhough I have been a US citizen 15 years. The South African constitution recognizes my dual citizenship but the US does not.

The biggest misuse of two passports is to leave the US on a US passport bound for another country. The second passport is then used to travel from that country to another.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:53:14 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Michael ...
Message:
Hello there Michael


Maybe he still holds an Indian passport.....but I don't think the USA allows dual citizenship....or does it ? Did he have to formally renounce Indian citizenship to gain US nationality?

BTW... hope you're well ...and hope you didnt mind my slagging of your tactics viv a vis Raja Ji/ London meeting a while ago ...nothing persoanl ;))

Cheers Dermot

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:50:10 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Dermot
Subject: Michael ...
Message:
Dermot,

I answered your question in my response to JM above.

Cheers to you mate. I didn't take it personally.

Michael

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:51:51 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Michael,couldn't this have changed since you left?
Message:
Hi Michael,

I'm very curious about this because my assumption was that if an alien marries a US citizen, they become a citizen, too. I always thought that was why he married so young.

Is there any way you could find out his status? Surely the French customs people know how to read a passport.

Since he flies around so much, would it be easier for him NOT to be a US citizen? I don't know, just speculating.

Warm regards,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:50:35 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Alien marrying US citizen..
Message:
Hi Cynthia, marrying is not enough,the person has to apply for citizenship, it is not automatically given.
Anyway that's all I have to say on the subject. Michael's explanation below is very good.
Mercedes
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 22:32:12 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Possibly, but why?
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

I have no idea if Maharaji has renounced his American citizenship, nor why he would want to do so.

While we’re on the subject, let me tell you the circumstances that made his acquiring US citizenship a matter of urgency back in 1976. Sometime in 1975 while Maharaji was still a citizen of India, but a permanent resident of the US, it became necessary to renew his Indian passport. We filled out all of the necessary paperwork and dispatched someone to the Indian consular office in San Francisco. It was supposed to be a straightforward matter in which he surrendered his passport along with the renewal documents and, within an hour or two, is issued a new passport.

In this case, however, after two hours, the person who submitted the passport and paperwork was notified that the Indian government had confiscated Mr. Rawat’s passport without offering any reason or explanation. When I reported the situation to Bob Mishler and he, in turn, to Maharaji, no one could fathom why this had been done. I placed a call to Aubrey West in London (I have spoken in some detail about West’s role in Maharaji’s affairs in a previous post). Aubrey immediately speculated that Maharaji must be the subject to a criminal investigation or charges in India. With that, I was dispatched first to London to develop a plan with Aubrey, and then to India to find out what was going on. It turned out that BBJ and Mata Ji were behind several attempts to criminally implicate Maharaji. I won’t go into the details here, but all the charges were ultimately dismissed. However, it took until 1979 to achieve this result and, during that time, Maharaji could not enter India.

In the meantime, Maharaji wasn’t eligible to become a US citizen for another year, and he had planned an extensive tour of Europe in the summer of 1975. The problem was, he didn’t have a passport. We managed to resolve this problem through the immigration lawyer who secured US permanent residence status for Maharaji, and was handling his application for US citizenship. He managed to secure for Maharaji a US Re-entry Permit through the US State Department. Normally, this document is issued to stateless persons such as refugees, until their ultimate status is resolved. In Maharaji’s case, we had to disclose the nature of the criminal charges against him in India, why we believed they were bogus charges, and how we were dealing with them. The Re-entry Permit looks somewhat like a passport and we managed to secure all of the visas necessary for the European tour, and pulled it off without a hitch.

This same process continued on all of his subsequent tours until he secured his US passport in 1976. You can now understand why there was some urgency to secure his US citizenship and passport as soon as he was eligible.

Michael

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:26:08 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Or was the problem fixed....
Message:
Or was M's problem untimately fixed by marrying a US citizen: a.k.a. Marolyn Johnson?

Also, Michael, I owe you an apology. I really thought when you first started posting here that you would post, clear your name, and move on to greener pastures. I made a few derogratory remarks to you. I am sorry as I see now that you are sincere.

Thanks for all the info you give to this site. It gives EPO a certain crediability. I forgive you for your role in the cult and positioning M to make him so invunerable to the IRS and his charitable status.

Tonette

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:25:56 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Tonette
Subject: Or was the problem fixed....
Message:
Dear Tonette,

Thank you for your kind words. They are much appreciated.

Regarding your point about M's problems being fixed by marrying an American, let me add this. Maharaji became a US permanent resident in 1973, before he married Marolyn. Consequently, he would have been eligible for US citizenship five years after that date. His subsequent marriage to an American accelerated the date of his eligibility for US citizenship which, given the problems he encountered with the Indian government, proved to be very beneficial to him.

Michael

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:45:00 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Now that makes sense, still angry anyway N/T
Message:
ll
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:14:26 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: DANG!
Message:
This is my second day on-line with you guys and I'm having more fun with this French gossip than I could ever believe.

Fifth Technique: Don't piss-off the French

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:27:02 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: DANG!
Message:
You can't figure out how much fun it's been last weekend.

Of course no premies are aware of what happened, except for the 7 persons of Rawat's party I guess (his jet's passengers), and maybe some of the US and French security guys/gals (hello Pascale!) who didn't enter the program ....

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 18:53:39 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: DANG!
Message:
), and maybe some of the US and French security guys/gals (hello Pascale!) who didn't enter the program ....

So the program DID take place, in spite of all of your 'efforts' to the contrary!

Thanks J-M. This is the first news of it that I got.

Hurrah indeed!

:o)

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 20:17:22 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: DANG! Maharaj's a fraud, Mili...
Message:
Mili, isn't is against your Lard's agya to visit this site?

Do you ACTUALLY believe you are going to change our minds about that hypocritical, abusive conman, pedophile harborer? I. Don't. Think. So.

Give it up! It won't happen; new exes are coming here everyday.

Hurrah, indeed.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:14:26 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: You are pathetic
Message:
You are only wasting your time - all of you.
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:42:05 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Everyone is going to leave and Mili will still say
Message:
saying to the ex-premies how wrong they are....hahahahaha Common. How thick is your brain? Nothing gets in?

:0

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 16:03:43 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: You are pathetic...thank you, Mili!
Message:
If leaving the Maharajism cult is ''pathetic'' in your mind, then I thank you for noticing.

So, mili, if I am wasting my time here, just what the fuck are you doing while you're here?

You're a pest, swat! Go away!

LOLOLOL on Mili!

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:46:25 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: LOLOLOLOL on mili DITTO
Message:
thick as a rock. Talking about blindness...

It took me few times of reading to understand that I REALLY had no clue who Lard was, and it hits me that Mili is coming here (I bet he reads EVERYDAY) and still is sleeping.

Oh well, I'm pathetic too darling then. Alleluya!!
Hi Cynthia, did u get my email?

A big hug,
silvia

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:08:06 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Yes, I got your email....Silvia
Message:
But I still can't place the name of your ex-husband.

Do you know what he did at DECA? I remember a lot of faces, but names sometimes escape me.

Email me with more info if you want.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:20:16 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Right on Cynthia---------------n/t
Message:
ride on
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 09:51:50 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: You are a fraudster
Message:
How can anyone take anything you say seriously?
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:38:39 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Mili
Subject: I think that Mili has something here
Message:
Mili, do you have some special 'inside' information as to why we are wasting our time?
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:09:17 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: You are pathetic
Message:
Mili,

Don't you get bored of listening TO YOUR SELF say the same, over and over? We are trying to have a converstaion here....

Scram or rennounce.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 22:17:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Not so.
Message:
Your uncontrolled feeling of scorn is no reflection on Cynthia or anyone else here except you.

The program appears to have only partially taken place, and Rawat's actions, which pissed off the European officials, will probably have a future consequence.

Elan Vital probably hid what happened from the pwikies (who are actually real human beings disguised as pwikies). But the word will get out.

If Rawat was not a cult leader and didn't have any drugs (and/or a mistress) on board, he would not have evaded the authorities. What is he hiding?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:18:26 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: A third or less of the program happened
Message:
From J-M:

'...but Rawat didn't show up the 1st day.
He did on the 2nd day, talked for an hour or so, and left immediately.
...
The program ended up at 2 pm when it was supposed to end at 6 pm.'

I wonder what story - if any - EV told the people (disguised as premies or pwikies) who attending the much abbreviated program.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:13:11 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: G
Subject: This is not the 1st time it happens
Message:
I remember quite a few occasions when the program was cancelled, shortened, or didn't happen the way it was supposed to: they'd almways have a good story to tell, m was extremely busy on some special project etc.

This time I can tell you he was busy escaping ....

and didn't want to leave time for authorities to check his situation IMO.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 22:39:46 (GMT)
From: Richard Wallace
Email: expremie@home.com
To: Mili
Subject: Heh
Message:
Mili! I missed ya! I just looked up this Forum after a a few years went by and didn't see any recent posts. Amazed you're still at it. Now we just need Jim back in here and it'll be like old times! Kinda enjoyed your sparring matches with Jim.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:11:24 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: and most of Rolling Stone article online now
Message:
Rock Me Maharaji The Little Guru Without A Prayer

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:28:26 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I thought he had US citizenship...
Message:
Hi Jean-Michel,

Wonderful work you're doing, btw.

I thought m became a US citizen when he married Marolyn. This is surprising and odd news.

What country is he a citizen of?

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:34:05 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: He's an Indian citizen, that's all
Message:
This is what they say.

French customs and police carefully checked him, and kept an eye on him during all his stay.

French don't like gurus anymore ....

Maybe you wonder why and how I know all this: simple. They've interviewed me, and understand that giving us all this information is very helpful to debunk him.

They've read EPO, and liked it !!

Hurrah !!!!

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:03:42 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Really?
Message:
Please, at some point I would like to call you to talk about how you did it. I'm strong and sane (r) now and want to do it here.
When you have some time, please E-mail me and let me know when is a good time for us to talk.

I'm writing and sending the clip to Argentinian media. A good friend of mine (the guy I worked with in Las Vegas, Juan Alberto Badia) I just learned is the director of the municipal radio en Argentina!! He'll do it for me, I know. I just have to finish puting all together. When I do, I will write to the other Spanish speaking countries media too. I'm sending the clip to PBS, a public runned station; I have been sending information to them and I'm sure, I believe that it will go through. I have a feeling... :)

The best to you!

Silvia

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:03:57 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: What strated the ball was the Combat review
Message:
Then the journalists got interested.

And the synchronicity was 'perfect'.

Of course we had quite some seminars to be prepared for the event ...

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:39:51 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: hahahahaha
Message:
what a joke!! My god, what a bunch of fish we were....

You'll tell me when you have tme, E-mail me?

I am so, so happy for what you have acomplished. Now we need the WHOLE boat.

Love u 2,

silvia
PS: forget about the lemon things. The US is down, is not included in the bags anymore. The guru stold all the money? hahahah

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:43:32 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: He's an Indian citizen, that's all
Message:
JM so he's never became a US citizen, no wonder he has said he never voted, and he is not politically oriented. He is so full of 'DANG'. I also wonder if by not being a citizen he'd be able to escape certain legal consequences if he were sued. There has to be some of that. For the Goddess' sake he lives in this country and rips the benefits of being here.
Arrrrgggg!! Makes me mad, so very mad.

Mercedes

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:39:53 (GMT)
From: Will
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Should be deported from the great U.S. of A.! (nt)
Message:
z
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 22:32:25 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Will
Subject: Should be deported from the great U.S. Just so..
Message:
long as they don't send him over here too the great U.K. ;-)
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:47:52 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: la-ex asks, who would premies like for next master
Message:

La-ex commented,

'The reason I ask premies who their pick for the next master is because I love to hear their answers...it tells me so much about their belief system with m.

Most premies I know have built m into such a supernatural godlike myth(of course, although he bemoans the fact, he has always been there fanning the flames) that it is impossible for them to really see him clearly, or to judge his actions objectively.(plus, we should not judge the master, because he doesn't judge us, as he has told us many times)

When someone is asked who their next pick for master would be, they have to cull through a mental list of very ordinary human beings. None of them probably seem suitable to fill his shoes.
This tells me something: m is not who you think he is.

Think about it another way: If you knew m as a premie in some community(not the master), maybe some rich PAM...an arrogant,spoiled, self centered man who routinely cheated on his wife and had a serious problem with telling the truth and staying sober....well, would you pick HIM as your choice for the next satguru?

See what I mean?
No one, especially not m, fits the mythological status that you have given him.

Would you feel comfortable with Daya as the next master?
Jagdeo?
Dave smith?
Marolyn?
Glen Whittaker?
Joan Apter?
Amar?
Raja ji?

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:57:04 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Mother of child abuse victim of maha cult speaks
Message:
Jodie posted this recently;
'I am Abi's Mum and want to express my disgust and outrage at the abuse she suffered from Jagdeo at Wringford Manor in 1976.
As parents we were unaware of the practises of paedaphiles and innocently let out children 'play games' along with Jagdeo, thinking this was a blessing for them. When he selected Abi to 'play chess' with him alone, we thought how wonderful for her.
Abi did not confide in me then what happend but tried to get her brother Ivan to tell me that Jagdeo fancied her. I dont even remember him telling me as was so niave and 'blissed out' by the honour that it never once crossed anyone's mind that anything could be seriously amiss.

I am of the opinion that Elan Vital and Maharaji should take full responsibility for this man's action for justice must be done to recompense and acknowledge the abuse, to all those kids who have gone through such disgusting encounters. They should openly acknowledge what has occurred and offer compensation to all individuals who have come forward. Unless they do this the movement will be forever sullied and conflicts will only remain and this affair will never go away. It has to be openly acknowledged. They need to ask forgiveness not the victims.....
They need to come to terms with the affair, not the victims....
I will continue to support my daughter in her fight for justice
in whatever way is possible for me. I am very proud of her in that way she has battled for years with her scars from the experience and the way she picks herself up and carries on, when she is exhausted and fragile. I will always support my daughter
whatever it takes, for, surely it is I who are to take some responsibility, the premies in that ashram, Divine Light Mission but ultimately it is always the head of an organisation that bears the utmost responsbility and that is Maharaji.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 07:02:06 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Questions for a student of maharaji
Message:
La-ex posted,

'Most people that I know would certainly want to know a good bit about maharaji's personal life, his values, his beliefs,moral code(if he has one), his outlook on life etc., if they were to ever consider following him as a student.
For instance, does he lie?
Does he take resposibility for his actions?
Does he manipulate people?
Can I believe what he says?
Can I trust him?

At some point in the aspirant conditioning process (I know the premies will say it is a 'heart-opening, feeling the thirst' process, but I have simply seen too much to not call it conditioning. I was an aspirant coordinator for 4 years in one community, and 2 years in another. A lot more goes on there besides just 'feeling the thirst' and 'getting in touch with the heart', as the new person realizes that this commitment is no ordinary commitment.)
At some point m will tell them in no uncertain terms that he is the master, they are the student, the commitment should be forever,and to not doubt or judge the master.

This is big stuff.
Only a blind fool would accept this without also applying some critical thinking and reasoning to the process as well.

For instance, who is this man I will be following?
I will probably watch videos of him and only him once or twice a week.
I will probably go to programs to see him.
Yet I will never question the master or process.(because he told me not to).
There is no opportunity to question him. Why?
Shouldn't I know a WHOLE LOT about this guy before I give a HUGE aspect of my life to him?

When any aspirant reads the first hand accounts on EPO, as well as the obvious hypocrisies in maharaji's ever-changing philosophy,his view of himself, and his prescription for practicing and realizing knowledge (BTW, just what is 'realizing knowledge?...the only guy I knew who ever said he had 'full realization of knowledge' was Bob Mischler, and look what happened to him), they will quickly surmise that something is quite wrong with this guy and the group around him.

They should ask a lot of questions about this guy..a lot.
And when they do,they will see that there are no good answers, just lame excuses.
Premies do not see certain things about m, because they simply cannot afford to.
Too confronting.
Rocks the boat too much.(and this is the boat that is supposed to be the only one that DOESN'T rock...and this may be their ONLY boat)
Nope, we don't have to go down that road.
Why would we want to? That's the mind, isn't it?

Beatles:
'Living is easy with eyes closed..'

William James:
'Beware the religion that cannot stand the light of psychology'

Think about it.(if m will allow you)

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