Michele Deradune -:- About my posting here -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 20:36:05 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- You're not responding, Michelle? -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:27:08 (GMT)

__ bill -:- Is this your poem from enhoyinglife? -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:42:39 (GMT)

__ __ bill....a post from Nigel -:- The illusion of surrendered control -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:49:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill -:- Another Nigel post for Michele -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:15:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ bill -:- yet Another Nigel post for Michele -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:38:12 (GMT)

__ swami suchabanana -:- WAKE UP, premies!! Master/slave-ry is Dead!!! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:50:19 (GMT)

__ __ Gary Epton -:- swami-ji, many thanks for saying it oh so well (nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:51:16 (GMT)

__ __ bill -:- nice work suchanewdawn!...nt -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:19:06 (GMT)

__ __ Ian Dury -:- Swami***A BEST OF FORUM***post -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:34:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- Swami***A BEST OF FORUM***I agree nt -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:58:10 (GMT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Take good notes Michelle-- -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:20:50 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Michele, as someone who has began to go sour on EV -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:21:23 (GMT)

__ Bryn -:- Its all so exciting isn't it? -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:13:12 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- What your friend said -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:20:19 (GMT)

__ __ silvia -:- genius NT -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:26:21 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- What's the point????????? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:03:13 (GMT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Well put Francesca...spot on (nt) -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:38:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- You have a point Francesca -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 12:36:52 (GMT)

__ la-ex -:- my recent post under Lesley below is sincere nt -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:00:11 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- Continued -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:40:26 (GMT)

__ __ Mark Appleman -:- Continued -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:02:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard Wallace -:- Hey Mark! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:36:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ Silvia -:- question -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:49:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Oh Mark---I'm really hurting -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:29:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Deborah, you're right - it hurts a LOT! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:36:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- been there,done it. Good News:It gets a Lot Better -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 09:44:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ silvia -:- Oh Mark---I'm really hurting -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 05:16:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I hope Mark posts his email coz you do need a pal -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:41:54 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Michele -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:23:51 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- This is real sick stuff, Sister :( -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:01:07 (GMT)

__ __ creativejani -:- I think it's quite simple - you are enjoying the . -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:46:12 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- My comment on this -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:52:54 (GMT)

__ __ CD -:- on this day -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:05:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Happy birthday to you Chris and also -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:49:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ CD -:- Thanks -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:08:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- You're a breath of fresh air, Sir Dave -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:52:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Oh, Birthday Goddess. Happy birthday, Chris -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:33:18 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- Have you read the website ? if so what do you -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:50:32 (GMT)

__ Way -:- You are unique -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:41:01 (GMT)

__ Silvia -:- The US against THEM syndrome- Premie TALK -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:31:52 (GMT)

__ __ Scot Jamieson -:- The Us versus Them scene works both ways. -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:16:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Very nicely said, Scot J .......................NT -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:26:26 (GMT)

cq -:- Maha's Gulfstream V jet - second-hand was it? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:38:46 (GMT)

__ Bazza -:- Maybe - here's previous reg: -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:30:18 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- Some of yous might find this slightly hilarious: -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:58:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- and somebody tell me I should read EPO more often -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:19:05 (GMT)

__ cq -:- whooops! - last two links need a bit of work -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:52:02 (GMT)

__ __ Bin Liner -:- I notice Capt. Rawat flies the experimental... -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 20:14:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- the experimental version ... glad you noticed -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 20:31:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Just like flying but without the peanuts -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:04:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I believe it was originally pronounced 'ketch' ... -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:14:07 (GMT)

jsk -:- Joe- Ex from Oregon says Hello -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 17:38:29 (GMT)

__ suchabanana -:- such from Dharamsala says hello! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:23:23 (GMT)

__ jim bo -:- Joe- Ex from Oregon says Hello -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:17:57 (GMT)

__ __ jsk -:- Joe- Ex from Oregon says Hello -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 11:38:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ jim boeger -:- Joe- Ex from Oregon says Hello -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:33:29 (GMT)

__ Silvia -:- Joe- Ex from Oregon says Hello -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:11:42 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Hi Joe - nice to have you here -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 17:46:59 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- Hi Joe - nice to have you here -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:23:18 (GMT)

__ __ jsk -:- El gusto es mio (sp) -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:11:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ Silvia -:- hablas español???? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:47:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ jsk -:- hablas español???? no -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:19:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- Spanish forum needs visitors... a big kissimmee(nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:49:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ silvia -:- I think I know who you're....NT ZEN -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:57:54 (GMT)

Press Watcher -:- In the Daily Mirror today(30/5) -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 16:52:35 (GMT)

__ bill -:- TD posted this report on Cainer -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:31:23 (GMT)

__ __ bill -:- cainer quoted on leaving enjoying life -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:53:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill..more lunacy from -:- cainer, enjoyinglifeorg founder. -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:06:54 (GMT)

__ Joy -:- Yes, Mark Winter is in EV -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:40:51 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Mark Winter if a Fucking LIAR -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:34:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Mark Winter is a Fucking LIAR (and furthermore) -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:38:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joy -:- Agreed, but he was still a nice guy -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:12:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Okay a NICE Fucking Liar. Is that better? (nt) -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:30:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Her Maj, the Q of E -:- Tactfullly, one might suggest this, Joseph dear -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:21:52 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- quote: 'a good day for crooks, cheats and liars' -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:24:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill.remember when cainer -:- said after dealing with us 'I have been thinking r -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:25:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq- Did Cainer contribute -:- to EPO? I had no idea. Must trawl the archives(nt) -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:23:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ bill--Hi cq, -:- No, he funded the enjoyinglife site........nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:54:12 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- and 2 French newspapers' articles on EPO -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 17:25:46 (GMT)

__ __ Kaj -:- and 2 French newspapers' articles on EPO -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 12:19:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Well, don't thank me so much -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:44:10 (GMT)

__ __ mgm -:- rough english translation of 1st article -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 06:02:22 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Jean-Michel is amazing -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:35:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- You can even see me on the TV videoclip! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 07:32:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill -:- Jean-Michel is amazing and inspiring.....nt -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:21:05 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- le parisien translation -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:20:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Thanks, Janet - you're great! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:27:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Merci again, janet! n/t -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:37:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- thanks a lot, janet. nt -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:04:48 (GMT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Good JoB -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:02:09 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- Liberte, Egailte, Fraternite - vive la France -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 17:33:20 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Depression repost for Banana Bai -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 16:16:38 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- cults and suicide -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:08:24 (GMT)

__ Silvia -:- Brillant undestanding! Cults, sects, stop people -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:04:29 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- premlata sent to NA?thats a hoot! NA is part of -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:50:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ clh -:- Error: NA is a spin-off of AA, not scientology's -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:59:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Distinction re: Narcanon and Narcotics Anonymous -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:03:05 (GMT)

jim boeger -:- i always felt i could communicate with people who -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:16:56 (GMT)

__ janet -:- then answer me--are you the guy i knew in 77? -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:17:19 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- Twenty four years later - Jim still has twinkly -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:49:27 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- There's something for you here, Jim -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:41:03 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Pot calling kettle black, Jim? You aren't angry? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 17:43:19 (GMT)

__ gerry -:- yer an asshole nt -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:54:04 (GMT)

__ __ suchiebananer -:- booger?he thought it was ice cream,but it's not(nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:29:45 (GMT)

Silvia: Help needed -:- I can't find Richard's post about Dough killing -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 14:09:02 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Rick's post re Doug and shootings -- reposted -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:04:07 (GMT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Strange Jim... -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:19:31 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- I can't find Richard's post about Dough killing -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:08:13 (GMT)

__ __ silvia -:- thanks NT -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 16:17:57 (GMT)

Katie H -:- Repost - Deborah to Michael Dettmers -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:27:50 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Thanks Deborah -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:53:47 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- Thanks Katie-- -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:28:06 (GMT)

__ __ Katie H -:- Hey Deborah -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:28:27 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- the grief. its new. it will not be permanent -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:42:50 (GMT)

__ David M -:- Repost - Deborah to Michael Dettmers -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:55:44 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- Thanks Katie. I had missed it originally. -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:34:05 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- First news videoclip about EV on EPO -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 10:19:54 (GMT)

__ cq -:- would love to see that, J-M, but RealPlayer 7 - -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:20:52 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Ask for your RealPlayer update !!! (nt) -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 07:35:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- have you got shares in the company, J-M? -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:24:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- ooops - I DO beg your pardon, J-M -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:54:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Thanx, links updated (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 07:45:21 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Me, too... -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:11:08 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- Awesome - Finally -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:31:42 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- would you translate this one? i cant hear it. -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:45:41 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- calling Janet, translation? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:38:47 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- First news videoclip about EV on EPO -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:09:43 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- I'll try to make it clear: the program happened -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:22:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- it's almost comical -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 20:18:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- I can't belive that -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:31:22 (GMT)

__ Silvia -:- Perfect! TRE BIEN Jean-Michael! -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:02:25 (GMT)

__ __ Bob -:- It looks like an old story will come through -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 14:50:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Silvia -:- You are funny LOL -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:41:35 (GMT)

Bob -:- relation mah. vs knowledge. -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 03:37:17 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- I was a good boy Bob and so didn't .... -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:26:26 (GMT)

__ __ suchabanana -:- [s]he wrote upon it, Return to Sender... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:24:06 (GMT)

__ __ An admirer -:- You gotta way with words, Mr Bin, yes you do... -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:59:39 (GMT)

__ Katie H -:- I feel stupid about telling this, but here goes -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 14:22:11 (GMT)

__ __ suchabanana -:- yes,you are under his spell - surrender your mind, -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:07:57 (GMT)

__ __ Silvia -:- don't feel stupid -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 11:02:53 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- That's the funniest thing I ever heard! -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 17:55:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ suchaban... -:- aspirin program;take 2 n call me in da moaning (nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:15:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H -:- Hey Jerry -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:45:58 (GMT)

__ Bryn -:- relation mah. vs knowledge. -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:08:37 (GMT)

__ __ Silvia -:- LOL Give me a brake!! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:46:42 (GMT)

__ __ kev -:- DVD K.lesson (Harrogate 2000) -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 20:03:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bryn -:- DVD K.lesson (Harrogate 2000) -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:10:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Suzanne -:- Same with me -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:46:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Same with me-only at santa monica april 2000 -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:59:03 (GMT)

__ __ Tonette -:- oh that is hilarious!! -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:46:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bryn -:- Guru Maharaji Stole My Kidneys! nt -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:49:33 (GMT)

__ Scott T. -:- relation mah. vs knowledge. -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:22:22 (GMT)

__ __ Gregg -:- I blame it on Yogananda and Castaneda (and LSD) -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:05:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard Wallace -:- I blame it on Yogananda and Castaneda (and LSD) -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:14:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- I blame it on youth and idealism -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:39:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Hitler -:- I blame it on the Jews. (nt) -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:28:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Christina Crawford -:- I blame it on Mommie Dearest (nt) -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:28:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Hillary Clinton -:- I blame it on a vast right-wing conspiracy (nt) -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:31:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Hitler, Crawford, Clinton....so funny :)) (nt) -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:23:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Edie Gormé -:- Blame it on the Bossa Nova nt -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:49:49 (GMT)

__ Sam Hardy -:- relation mah. vs knowledge. -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 03:56:33 (GMT)

__ __ Peter Howie -:- relation mah. vs knowledge. -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:04:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Disculta -:- relation mah. vs knowledge. -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:17:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Umesh Dar, the Bible freak who absconded with -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 09:03:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Did he really? -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:58:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Don't know first hand but that's what was said -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 06:07:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nick -:- Umesh Dhar -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 08:03:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- That sounds more like the Umesh Dhar I knew -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:17:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Voyeur -:- That sounds more like the Umesh Dhar I knew -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:42:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- That sounds more like the Umesh Dhar I knew -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:08:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Voyeur -:- That sounds more like the Umesh Dhar I knew -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:44:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sam Hardy -:- divine metaphor -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:13:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- A Conundrum?????? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:49:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Dave Punshon -:- A Conundrum?????? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 08:30:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- A Conundrum?????? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 10:09:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dave Punshon -:- A Conundrum?????? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:10:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- A Conundrum?????? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:37:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dave Punshon -:- A Conundrum?????? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:15:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Oh yes you mean -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:07:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- magical thinking -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 14:44:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bryn -:- magical thinking -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:52:58 (GMT)

Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 20:36:05 (GMT) From: Michele Deradune Email: None To: Everyone Subject: About my posting here Message:

Hi, I just wanted to share with you all that it's been kind of intense for me posting here under my real name and all while also being a lover of Maharaji and Smart Card-carrying active premie. I wrote to a longtime premie friend this morning and told her about it, asking her please not to bother to write me back if she was only going to lecture me that I shouldn't post on ex-premie.org, because I really didn't need or care to hear it. I have not asked her permission to reprint her letter here, so I am printing it anonymously but will say that she is an active premie who has been a follower of Maharaji since about 1973 or '74: 'Hi Shell, 'Well, if anyone does anything from their heart, i don't think that is weird. it is wonderful, as a matter of fact. Maharaji has again & again suggested that we be real. that we come from the inside so strongly, that we don't care what people think. because we're lucky enough to get love and positive reinforcement from within. now how many people on the planet can say THAT! that is a rare treasure indeed. as long as we're coming from that love, we're protected. very much so. Maharaji doesn't want us to be all homogenized and so afraid of public opinion that we feel reticent to express ourselves. Remember amaroo 4, when he talked about the wild horses? Sit & listen to that segment over & over again. You'll feel so good, you'll start to giggle.' Another premie, who received Knowledge in the '90s, sent me this e-mail this morning: 'Hi Michele! Sometimes it takes courage to be yourself. But we're so much happier when we are true to our true nature. =) Love you,' I have a sister who is has been enjoying listening to the videos of Maharaji that I have been sending her for the past few years, and soon I will invite her to visit this website. She is biologically my half-sister and 17 years younger than me, so she was only something like 2 thru 5 years old when I lived in the ashram and we did not really get to know each other until adulthood, especially since we have almost always lived over 1,000 miles apart -- so she doesn't know much about the colorful background of Maharaji's mission in the U.S. I'll be calling her soon and inviting her to visit here. It might be very interesting to see what she thinks about all this. Cheers Michele (not an ex)

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:27:08 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: You're not responding, Michelle? Message:

I'm waiting for you to address any of the questions and statements regarding your post. You are conspicuously silent. Could it be that the EV boogy man has your tongue? Or your fingers? Can you not find the Maharaji rhetoric in your repetoire to handle the objections that were raised. You said in a recent posting that you're Bold, blah...blah...Why not prove it?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:42:39 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: Is this your poem from enhoyinglife? Message:

Michele Deradune Austin, TX, USA Wanting to fall in love I ask myself: can I have the courage? the courage to reflect my own true inner nature? to play my role to the hilt to love and laugh and cry like I know like I know the flame within which can never die Flirting, courting, wanting to fall in love, in love with life. life. itself.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:49:40 (GMT) From: bill....a post from Nigel Email: None To: bill Subject: The illusion of surrendered control Message:

...Remember the oft-repeated message: 'Surrender to that Grace' - usually combined with 'Just make that effort..!' I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that every one of the Living Perfect Fraudster's satsangs from the super-devotional, late seventies period included both injunctions repeated often in various forms of words. You make the effort; the Guru supplies the experience. Take one step towards Guru Maharaj Ji, and Guru Maharaj Ji will take a hundred steps in your direction... This was (is?) the central, absurd paradoxical law of the cult: you do the work, the guru delivers the goods and gets the credit. If the goods fail to appear, it is your fault for not doing enough work (and the guru's conscience is as clean as new shirt on Sunday). Maharaji's kind of meditation is an illusion of surrendered control. Not in the sense that your experience is illusory, but in the sense of your being transported somewhere - Maharaji's World probably - by an external power. (Ok, the 'Knowledge' experience is said to be 'internal', but what I mean here is external to your control). This is precisely analogous to the susceptible hypnotic subject who does for him- or herself everything necessary to achieve the sensation of automatism, then attributes the experience to the power of the hypnotist... As a premie - and long before you may even become a premie - you have learned off by heart that (a) you must focus on the techniques, and (b) the experience is not elicited by those techniques, but is a gift of Grace. But at a more damaging level, the illusion of surrendered control occurs in all areas of cult involvement, as well as everyday life. You can't afford the fare to travel to a festival, so you take your remaining furniture to an auction. By His Grace, someone buys it just in time for you to purchase a ticket. (Wow, I mean, that is so amazing... I just took that one step and...Thank you, Lord...) In most cases, the illusion of surrendered control occurs in situations where we have limited control of our nervous systems. We cannot, for example, make ourselves hiccup or belch but we can engineer circumstances to improve the probability of those events happening (by, say, opening a few bottles of the aforementioned special vintage...) Similarly, practicing the Knowledge techniques does not guarantee that we will see light, hear music etc., but increases the likelihood of their occurring. We are easily persuaded that experiences beyond our obvious control are not of our own making. [My late brother Peter had a party trick as a teenager. He would ingest three teaspoons of bicarbonate of soda. The alkali reacted with the hydrochloric acid in his stomach to produce a surfeit of carbon dioxide. He would then exhale said gas in a machine-gun volley of belches. Better still, he could talk in belches, sounding like Kermit, or that actor Jack whatsisname after the voice-box implant. Fixty-six syllables was his record. Set to music this would give you one full verse of 'Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord' (plus 'Glory, glory, halle...') Peter never saw the glory of the coming of the Lord - though I tried my best. The last time I spoke to him in a hospital ward with family gathered around the bed, I slipped some useful satsang into the conversation. It seemed important at the time. Having a premie in the family confers a blessing for five generations in either direction - didn't you know? Thought it might help Peter on his way to understand that a living, perfect, alcoholic, mutlimillionaire cult leader in Malibu was the main reason he had walked the planet for twenty-two years...] Back to the illusion of surrendered control... Can we test the theory? There are certainly testable hypotheses here: we might expect premies to be more susceptible to the illusion than non-premies. Thus, premies will be more susceptible to both the new-age pendulum and ouija board effects, as well as being more likely to report loss of volition during hypnosis than non-premies. The trouble is, I need some research volunteers, but am only acquainted with non-premies nowadays. Perhaps URL or Mel would like to step forward... Or should I advertise for particpants on the ELK site?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:15:51 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: bill....a post from Nigel Subject: Another Nigel post for Michele Message:

Hi Michelle, here is a post from the past from Nigel, It might be helpful or interesting. 'Perhaps it is my hyperactive imagination again - that strange and sometimes dangerous phenomenon of our mental lives that we are all prone to which would have me, for example, imagine a premie might admit to making unwarranted accusations and even express some regret; to imagine that a premie might, just for once, see through his Master's wisdom and recognise an accomplished story-teller with an impoverished intellect and crippled moral judgement pulling the strings; a premie who might yet admit that his Master has made unsustainable promises, indefensible claims and - let's face it - pretty stupid remarks during his earthly stint as the all-powerful one. That same imagination which once convinced me a child guru from an obscure bhak-ti-basics cult in the foothills of god-chose-where had arrived on planet earth to shatter the bonds of my mortality and deliver me to light everlasting. The imagination which informed me that, however cultlike it appeared to outsiders, Divine Light Mission was the means by which the Living Lord would bring Knowledge to mankind and thereby 'peace on earth in [his] lifetime'. The imagination which assured me all love was Maharaji's gift and the pain of this world but a consequence of my failure to be centred, and remain centred at all times; that to feel good inside but an acknowledgement of his gift and become indebted: that I should 'weep for a thousand years' if I grasped for a moment what the Master, out of infinite love and boundless mercy, had done for little ol' shit-faced me. The imagination which reframed his conspicuous striving for personal wealth as the humble acceptance of unsought gifts of love from his devotees. The imagination which readily understood that science did not know the half it; that the power to pass on power can indeed be transmitted down a sacred lineage of (time?)lords - just like Dr Who... The imagination which failed me when the rumour machine spoke of ill-temper, heavy drinking and drug abuse; and failed me again when Mishler provided corroboration. The imagination which saw reason to savour the instructions of the Master's hand-picked mahatmas when they warned us sternly that non-premie friends were an influence to be avoided; that my mind was the enemy within; that loved ones must be given lower priority in my life than the constant practice of satsang, service and meditation. The imagination which believed the Master could bring to any sphere of activity incomparable talent (even poetry); which accepted without question that he was a computer genuis; that saw ballet in a flat-foot's waddle. The imagination that detected Maharaji's plan unfolding behind me in every detail of my life, whether a lost job, a failed romance or a gut-wrenching bereavement. These were his lila, his divine game, another beautiful chance to surrender and place my head at his lotus fucking feet for the rest of eternity. I imagined Maharaji knew what he was talking about. And that, my friends, is all it takes to make an idiot out of any one of us. You included

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:38:12 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: bill Subject: yet Another Nigel post for Michele Message:

Premies: Maharaji used to say demonstrably stupid things. This is a matter of public record. He made declarations about the nature of the universe (reincarnation, karma, evolution etc.); his powers (count 'em); broken promises (peace on earth, feeding the hungry, lions laying down with lambs, the whole world realizing Knowledge etc); statements about his closest associates (Holy Family and mahatmas being 'realised souls')... etc, etc. I believe both Maharaji and his current followers would be embarrassed by such pronouncements if a friend, family member, journalist, or disinterested observer asked them right now to endorse or deny their validity. I politely suggested that his teachings of old were frequently - nay, routlinely - unreliable. I further suggested said guru was a liar, deluded, or an as-yet unfulfilled talent in the omnipotence biz. So why, I wondered, would anyone believe him now when the track record is crap..? Your questions: (1) Is it wise to follow a Master whose words cannot be trusted? (2) How do you know Maharaji's present teachings can be trusted? (3) At what point in time did his words become worthy of trust? (4) How do you tell the difference between his reliable and unreliable statements? New question: (5) Do you even care? If not, then: (6) what does that say about you?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:50:19 (GMT) From: swami suchabanana Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: WAKE UP, premies!! Master/slave-ry is Dead!!! Message:

Michele: First, r.e. your posts: In the real world, I teach and publish. I advise students to do their own work, use their creativity, and credit their sources. When you imitate someone, that could be flattery - if it's done in concert and with attribution or consent. But not as some purloined identity with a contrary thesis. Entering and ripping-off is not 'flattery'; possible factors at play: opportunistic exploitation, covetousness, ego. In the past I've been in professional situations where people intentionally plagiarized, paraphrased, republished without permission and otherwise patently infringed on my original and even copyrighted material. So, I retain attorneys. From these and other professional experiences in government and public relations, I can distinguish the difference between what is well-intentioned and what is deceptive or belies an egocentric, aggressive agenda. Where I come from, we don't steal bananas - or throw them at people. How cavalier, condescending, insensitive. But I guess that just goes to show - by his fruits shall ye judge him/her. By the way, I read your gushy miragey op/ed testimonial in ELK and understand you used to transcribe and handle propaganda for miragey at IHQ in Denver. Ever heard about the drunken Perfect Master tape #1? 'Hey, senorita...' Wonder who has a copy of that one now?! I'm very curious about the sections of m's talks that have been edited or deleted in transcriptions over the years. Like ol' Rosemary Woods with the typewriter and erase button in the Nixon White House. You know, miragey likes to quote Kabir. But have you noticed that he NEVER refers to the sections of Kabir's work which state verbatim that a true saint or perfect master NEVER accepts money, gifts, or wealth from one's devotees? When miragey did the vehicular manslaughter and then the hit-and-run, he also had an innocent premie servant falsely take the legal blame. That's another felony, in addition to the hit/run he committed. Miragey committed another criminal felony, when miragey ordered Mike Donner to 'get Fakiranand out of the country' - to avoid the arrests and prosecution of Fakiranand + his accomplices in the attempted murder of Detroit reporter Pat Halley. m. was also protecting Rajaji, who had been instigating the mahatmas and WPC to avenge the pie-throwing incident. Do you know how many innocent people miragey + DLM top officials moved like pawns in the attempted homicide and aiding and abetting of fugitive criminals and the org coverup? Dozens of unsuspecting premies. Did you know that Marolyn's husband miragey had Michael Dettmers procure young blonde premie women for his sexual pleasure, and then dumped them abruptly after he got it? Did you know that the writings of Sarupanandji and other gurus does not indicate a legitimate descent of guruship to the materialist rawat clan - which is drowning in its own ill-gotten maya - but rather through a historical series of renunciants? Did you know that people reported even back in the 1970s that miragey knew that Jagdeo was doing stuff with premie children at the Unity School in a closed room with the lights off? Have you seen the lies and spin doctoring by m's official representatives on the subject? Did you know that while miragey was publicly accepting self-promotional civic awards and telling premies not to do drugs or drink alcohol, he was smoking cigs, imbibing cognac and smoking pot, too? Did you know that the IRS was auditing Divine Light Mission, and that miragey had Dettmers and others create a new org and shell corporations which would allow miragey to divert and monopolize the donation revenues for himself and his extended family [e.g. Raja ji] without legal investigation or prosecution for tax fraud? Just in 1982 alone, more than $100 million was raised? Where did it all go to? 'It isn't easy to be rich. Once you have one million dollars, then you need two million...' etc. - miragey at Long Beach How about m's and EVI's present claims that he never said he was god or a savior? Who is Guru Maharaj ji? The 'authentic authorized story': 'Why do more than six million people around the world claim he is the greatest incarnation of God that ever trod the face of this planet? Why do Christian priests claim that he has taught them the way to love? Why do Hindus refer to him as the Swan Avatar?' -- DLM/EVI, Bantam Books, 1973 'God is the same, but now we look for Him to come in a new way, to give His Knowledge. Jesus gave this Knowledge, Krishna gave this Knowledge, but now we must look again for a new Master to show us the light. I have not come to establish a new religion or sect, but I have come to give you Knowledge...' -- miragey ...'they expect God Himself to come, they pray for it, they ask for it, they announce about it, but when He comes they fail to recognize Him. And not recognizing Him is His physical form, they cannot recognize him within themselves.' -- miragey ...'whenever he comes to the physical world, the Perfect Master has to tolerate many difficulties.' - miragey 'We have to find this Word by a teacher, a guide. A guide who is perfect, and who can teach this perfect Knowledge to us. A perfect guide can guide us. You need a burning lamp to light other lamps. So, in the same way you need an enlightened Perfect Master to make you enlightened and perfect also. IF THE MASTER HIMSELF IS NOT PERFECT, HOW CAN HE MAKE YOU PERFECT? YOU NEED A PERFECT Master.' -miragey 'when Satguru comes... He is perfect, He was perfect, and He will be perfect... A devotee is sitting in America, Guru is sitting in India, but both have a very powerful connection...So, remember. We have to find that God, that person who is perfect... So, remember: we are part of Him who has manifested Himself as a Guru and who has come into this earth, and now we have to be One with Him. We have to completely merge and make our souls one with Him because He is perfect, and once we merge with Him we will also be perfect.' - miragey [aka maharaji aka guru maharaj ji], 15 years old, 1973 Shri Hans Productions Either these words were and are all true, or you-know-who was and is a lying sack of you-know-what. [the EVI spin doctors, too!] Yes, I have seen big piles from elephants, but never has lil' swami seen such huge stinky piles of deluded demonic invention/reinvention! We must exorcise these personality cult demons that have been possessing the spirits, minds and bodies of our beloved brothers and sisters! Who falsely fed the saviour, avatar, messiah, Krishna concepts? He and his family did - just look at the stupid costumes, crowns, the specially constructed stages, Krishna lila gopis' dance and the Lord Christ plays, Millenium, the thrones, the posing and the pictures, the official distorted guru worship rituals of bowing, arti, toe-kissing, etc. - all the real b.s. He personally authorized and approved all those concepts and rites - and he still feeds that elephant dung in piles to those brainwashed people who will eat it - because, frankly, it empowers dysfunctional him, miragey, in their enabling codependent lives, and disempowers them as independent, free-thinking human beings. We're talking practically terminally brainwashed r.e. some of the premie oldtimers. Incidentally, did you know that countless people have regularly experienced brilliant inner light etc. way before and way after hearing about the maha - or never having heard about him? Did you know that some people here have experienced inner light, music, breath power, nectar way before ever receiving techs from m or his agents? I have experienced inner light since I was a child. That light has nothing to do with m. How to approach one's own light, sounds, breath, being are not the property of any self-styled guru, master, teacher. The secrecy he insists upon for these universal techniques and his related cult-enforced monopoly on speaking about the so-called knowledge only serve to empower him in a cult capacity and to extract tens of millions of dollars from his devotees for luxuries for his [and his family's] exclusive use. The so-called knowledge comes with strings - so, it's not free - strings to miragey as the false master of one's fate and life. Tell anyone with a functioning brain that this isn't a personality cult or religion? Using the strings of false guru attachment, cult reinforcement and propaganda, Big Brother video scenarios, demonization of the human intellect, cult peer pressure and guilt trips, and inflated god-like claims and claims of some inner connection with him [which have since been spin doctored by m and EVI and denied], miragey's family have conned a lot of people into blindly and mindlessly following the various Rawat clan gurus. Let's look at agya, for example: Agya [the personal explicit direction/orders of the guru], and agya's use as a mind-numbing propaganda tool for brainwashing and total submission to m. as the absolute authority and superior power in this world, played a Huge role in breaking down the barriers of any sane person's sensibility, reasonable doubts, and aversion to even the most dastardly deeds ordered in the name of the almighty guru. Those who innocently come to knowledge and m. today are merely given a watered-down dose of agya -- yet reinforced weekly [but not daily and nightly] with the image of Big Brother hypnotizing them on a projection screen in a darkened screen in a cold and impersonal environment where he maintains absolute control of the situation. Tens of thousands of adults, in what should have been the prime of their lives, actually submitted their innate intelligence and personal freedom and choices to the will of a pimply, greasy-haired teenaged Napoleon megalomaniac. This would not have been possible without a cumulative combination of synergistic factors: the orchestrated messianic 'Lord of the Universe' mindset which Prem Rawat and his minions routinely propagated and reinforced, as evidenced in m.'s countless satsangs [diatribes], Arti ritual [hymn of absolute adulation and submission], official media and publications, the enormous peer pressure and cult conformity, the cult commandments and rules, the bowing and prostation to his pictures and his person, the emotional and personal isolation many endured, the agonizing guilt trips, and the pretense that any effectiveness and experiences from the meditation techniques were somehow inextricably linked with him, etc. However, this cosmology and transformation could not have been effectuated or complete without AGYA -- the guru's direct orders to the devotee[s]. Within the framework of the Rawat family's cult philosophy, the word of the Master literally becomes the final word, the ultimate worldly authority -- the powerful psychological device used in communication to relay and justify the various insatiable demands, habitual capriciousness, hypocrisy, inanity and insanity of any questionable m./organizational doctrines, operations, or shenanigans. Agya has also been ritually used as the measure and test of one's obedience, fitness, and devotion to the Master. For instance, would Dettmers have done the deeds he performed - had it not been for m.'s direct agya? Perhaps not. [How about it, MD?] Similarly, when orders and demands were made of the premies, agya was routinely invoked by m. and relayed via m.'s mouthpieces throughout the premie hierarchy and pecking order of each community worldwide -- e.g. m. has stated that he needs a new plane, or m. says to forget about your jobs and families and that a true premie should only live to attend the festivals with one's Master, or we have been advised to tell you that it is preferable to leave cash or checks made out to m. in the darshan line [foot-kissing], or m. says you must [________fill in the blank] if you dare even call yourself his devotee... When mahatma [instructor] Fakiranand [aka Mishra] and his companion went to bash in reporter Pat Halley's skull in August 1973 in a murder conspiracy of retribution [for publicly throwing a cream pie in m's face and thereby undermining a millenial 'Soul Rush' event at Cobo Hall in Detroit], do NOT think for a moment that it was some kind of a rogue operation [as the org's spin doctors concocted and quickly related to the shocked premies]. In fact, the hitmen themselves were under the distinct impression that they were simply following orders -- the will of the guru and his top-level organization. And, in fact, some very informed persons indicated and alleged at the time that the last telephone call between the hitmen and the DLM hierarchy before they left the Detroit ashram on their appointed rounds was with the young Rawat himself. Yes. Rawat himself. What did the honchos at DLM IHQ in Denver tell the hitmen to do? What did Rawat himself say, too? We already know that miragey ordered Mishler and Donner to direct the flight of the fugitives. Why, then, did m. shortly thereafter pose in photos with Raja ji [in the And It Is Divine magazine] as the Godfather, and why was there the ritualized pie-throwing by m. at premie special events for several years thereafter? What Real Demons were actually being flaunted or exorcised? Why was DLM directly involved in the aiding and abetting of fugitives, an organizational cover-up and dissemination of lies, and subsequent $10,000 payoff to Halley to circumvent any official investigation, lawsuit, or criminal indictment? WHO was really being protected? 'No cheat, no deceit', remember?! 'Satsang' means company of truth; yet, where and when did m. and his org Ever share Any truth or light on this matter? Was this EVIL deed and pattern establishing a precedent for the subsequent criminal response and mishandling of m.'s hit-and-run vehicular manslaughter [and the hush money payoff] a decade later in India [as related to EPO by Dettmers]? It is well-known that some WPC and security personnel around m. indicated they would Kill to protect m. -- or if ordered to - without question. Just like the KGB, CIA, or Mafia. What kind of spiritual racketeering has been engaged in, at all levels and in a number of areas, too, over the years? Did m.'s interpretations, abuse, and perversion of the concept of spiritual AGYA pave the way for the virtual enslavement of thousands of well-meaning souls, for crimes committed and concealed, for the x-rating [sworn secrecy] of his personal activities, and for the accumulation and obscenely gross misuse of hundreds of millions of dollars in monetary donations? Here is an excerpt from 'Life with Knowledge' (circa 1975), A Premie Guidebook, DLM, Chapter 6, entitled 'AGYA': 'You were told about this word, and explained its meaning thousands and thousands of times. And the word is 'agya'. If you follow agya, there is no big deal, no big problem. Then you don't have to worry. It's like, you're told to do something and you do it! ... It's Like Guru Maharaj Ji is standing a hundred feet above you and saying, 'Listen. You want to get out of this place? Okay. Now make a left.' And you go, 'I don't need your advice.' 'But if a person can be that humble and really understand that, 'YES, I AM A LITTLE CHILD, and I need directions,' then everything will be so beautiful.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji Beautiful for whom? The mega-millionaire Master, or those spiritually entrapped and ENSLAVED? Habits: 'Whatever you sow, you reap. If you sow good, you shall reap good. If you sow bad, you shall reap bad.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji On the use of drugs and alcohol: 'Well, the only thing I can tell you is that, look, you already have a Knowledge that is much more superior than that. It is like this: a person is in one city and he is telling everybody, 'Oh, I want to go to another city as soon as possible.' And he has a falcon jet which is A-OK. It runs; it's perfect. But all he does is take his suitcase and start walking. And that's not the quickest way. It's not good to just say, 'Oh, I want this enlightenment to be soon as possible', and then instead, going to something that is completely inferior.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji On marriage: 'What people do is they say, okay, we have to get married now, and then they get married. After some time they think oh no, I don't think I like this thing. I think I better get back to do service. And they leave their wives and they come back and it's like, they want to do service again, and they're really confused and I say, 'Man, do one thing. Make your decision whether you want to get married and stay married. You understand. Don't get divorced in two weeks because that is the most terrible thing you can do.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji Service to the Master: 'If you want to be a disciple at all. If you want to be a real human being, first of all you have to be a servant. And how can one become a servant? By service.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji Channels of Communication: '...channels of communication through which DIRECTION can be given so that we all can work together. Therefore, everyone arranging any activities in either my name or in the name of Divine Light Mission MUST CONTACT Headquarters by telegram, telephone, or telex, FOR APPROVAL OF ANY PROPOSED ACTIVITY... BY ESTABLISHING THIS COMMUNICATION, ALL ACTIVITIES CAN BE APPROVED AND SUPPORTED BY THE DIVINE LIGHT MISSION, AND ANY SPECIAL PROPOSALS WILL BE ABLE TO COME TO MY ATTENTION BEFORE IMPLEMENTATION...' -- Sant Ji Maharaj [aka Guru Maharaj Ji aka Maharaji aka Prem Rawat aka Prempal Singh Rawat] (caps added) So, don't blame the lowly servile operatives - when everything associated with the cult from the mega-money diversions to the songs played at events is sychronized by orders from the top - the buck clearly stops with miragey - a master of smoke and mirrors. By the way, some of us even enjoy occasional meditation, etc. But our personal experiences have nothing to do with the greedy guru. For those who have distanced themselves a bit from the cult for awhile, looked at all the available information out there related to the techniques, the history, the already extensive cult documentation, and then reused their brains instead of relying on their emotional attachment and cult concept indocrination, the verdict is clear - miragey has royally abused and betrayed the trust of the premies. He is therefore unworthy to be a guru, master, or teacher of anyone. Instead, he has shown himself to be a greedy guru, who has practiced cheat and deceit. Premies, take back your lives - which some of you gave away a long time ago, when you surrendered the reins of your life and your mind to someone so unworthy, deluded and selfish. Remember: 'No cheat, no deceit' was his mantra. Well, he didn't practice it in his official capacity or personally. Therefore he has failed the test. [Incidentally, Michele, I didn't think you'd apologize, either.] You know, I used to watch cult groupies scramble and callously trample others in their services or at events just to get closer to miragey, sometimes thinking nothing of even undermining or sabotaging other premies, in their deluded cult personal aggrandisement mentality. The same personality types would naturally have no compunction or hesitation about facetiously or condescendingly doing the same to folks here. It's funny how some premies can be such ignorant egotists - who mistakenly think they've cornered a monopoly on truth - when the actual official personality cult representations are founded upon the quicksand of cheat and deceit. Guru enshrinement and personality worship is ultimately an obstacle to enlightenment, spirituality, intelligence, liberation, and further progress on the individual's path of life and truth. Slavery is dead, premies. Wake up! There is a healthy holistic afterlife, here and now... Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:51:16 (GMT) From: Gary Epton Email: None To: swami suchabanana Subject: swami-ji, many thanks for saying it oh so well (nt Message:

pranam

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:19:06 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: swami suchabanana Subject: nice work suchanewdawn!...nt Message:

;lasdfg

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:34:16 (GMT) From: Ian Dury Email: None To: swami suchabanana Subject: Swami***A BEST OF FORUM***post Message:

Swami, Bravo! Ian

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:58:10 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Ian Dury Subject: Swami***A BEST OF FORUM***I agree nt Message:

nyt

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:20:50 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: swami suchabanana Subject: Take good notes Michelle-- Message:

Well well...An impressive dissertation, indeed. Michelle! Looks like this nice teacher gave you the cliff notes on Googoo M. and his flying Circus History Course. Methinks there's going to be a pop-up quiz, really soon. Start Studying, and if you have any questions, why us fellow graduates will be too happy to help. Deborah

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:21:23 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: Michele, as someone who has began to go sour on EV Message:

I welcome you here. I know that you are being attacked for spouting the gurujism party-line but I know that you are working through stuff and it is hard to really think it all through over night. It took me years. As I said to you before - as long as you don't clobber me with UFOs, I'll be patient with you and lend you a sympathetic ear. But I also said to you that eventually one fact became inescapable - EV is M's creation, EV officials are hand-picked by M and they carry out his policies. EV's dysfunctionality is a direct consequence of M's dysfunctionality.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:13:12 (GMT) From: Bryn Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: Its all so exciting isn't it? Message:

Dear Ms.Deradune, You are on very thin ice here. Get out before it all goes horribly wrong for you. You haven't got the power you think you've got. The Maharaji issue does not cut both ways, with you-Mrs Strong in the centre, choosing the posture that pleases you. Run, run! Never come here again or you will be turned to stone! With love, Bryn (a wellwisher)

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:20:19 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: What your friend said Message:

Michelle, Your friend said:- we're lucky enough to get love and positive reinforcement from within. now how many people on the planet can say THAT! Can't you see this is cult think??? Your friend actually believes she is one of a special group that gets this love and positive reinforcement from within. Actually, the entire human race feels love (and if you know of somewhere else to feel it other than within please let me know), and can actually feel it far better free from the chains of your cult. Get out now! John

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:26:21 (GMT) From: silvia Email: None To: JHB Subject: genius NT Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:03:13 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: What's the point????????? Message:

Michele: You don't need to answer, and there are other premies (Erika Anderson for one) who have posted here under their real names for a while, but it's boring to read you spouting off the nonsense we were told for years. We don't believe it. You're not preaching to the choir here. Quite the contrary. You're preaching to those who have rejected M as anything except the source of meditation techniques that could be learned from many sources, and as a purveyor of weak, contrived and recycled truisms. So your proclamations (such as below where you say that you love M as your Guru (with a capital 'G') are meaningless to me, and are odd in the context of this forum. I couldn't care less, and I don't get it. What's the point of posting such stuff here???? Do you have some kind of personal motive for coming on an ex-premie forum and declaring your love or loyalty to Rawat??? Even if I knew you personally I wouldn't care--I certainly do not have negative feelings for you as a human being or anything like that. I have premie friends and family members who love M, but I certainly don't need to know about it. I work very hard at supressing the gag reflex, believe me. Other folks already made the points I would, some of which are: 'that' experience is available to anyone, through any manner of teachings, religions, meditations and personal experiences with or without the same M doesn't say anything very original, or that hasn't been said before -- he's quite a pedestrian motivational speaker recycling all sorts of truisms and on and on. Anyway, it's boring to read your posts and I only hope you are getting some value out of being here. But I probably will avoid most of them unless you start to get a few doubts in your mind. best wishes and all that, f

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:38:43 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Well put Francesca...spot on (nt) Message:

zz

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 12:36:52 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Dermot Subject: You have a point Francesca Message:

I think the frustration that a lot of premies have in not being able to say what's one their minds is showing off. F5 is one way to do it.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:00:11 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: my recent post under Lesley below is sincere nt Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:40:26 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: Continued Message:

I haven't been able to write my Becoming-Aware-of-What-the-Fuck Happened-to-Me testimony because I am reeling in pain at my recent reality check. Very Briefly I have been away from Maharaji for approx. 12 yrs now. I very unintentionally drifted away and soon found that there was no Maharaji and no premies in my life. However, I had fond memories of M and all the experiences that I had. Two years ago I accidently came across this homepage while I was looking for M. I was like you, although I did not engage in discussions about M except that I left a message to Everyone saying that I found the page and was not experiencing what they had. Then last week I came back to see what people were saying. I won't go into which passages affected me right now but it unleashed some repressed revelations. The unconscious reservoir gates crashed open leaving me drowning in sorrow. The TRUTH Maharaji has intentionally fucked with Who he is, What he is about, and more stuff that will turn your nectar sweet blood in your veins to cottage cheese. Maharaji is the spin doctor on his marketing image. He changes his image to appeal to new generations. He's the Madonna of Spiritual charlitans. Maharaji is not explaing anything to you about the past, present, or future. You're just happy to see him, his form, his cute little smile, the sound of his voice. You want to hear him say, 'They never got my message, they're stupid, you, you all are the smart guys, I like you best'. Do you question him at all? Do you, Michelle? Do you really believe the odds that we are all insane and He is all Perfect. Does this conclusion comfort you while you suppress your doubts. If you read carefully and conscientiously through these pages you will see that WE are talking about M, not K, and twinkly eyed, well meaning Sisters, we are talking about the Dictator/Master Your precious, precious Maharaji. Your ego is protecting you from listening with your heart and intelligence which I KNOW you have. You're here everyday, I admire you. Michelle, I can't explain how I feel right now. I'm 44 yrs. old and I've never ever ever hurt the way I hurt right now. Remember Michelle. We are not trying to Recruit you. As a matter of fact, we want you NOT to have our experience. Deborah

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:02:19 (GMT) From: Mark Appleman Email: None To: Deborah ROSE Subject: Continued Message:

Hello Senorita Rose, Interesting. Your current palpable anger, and recent 'delayed reaction' in the satguru myth deconstruction process, seems to be part of a serendipity. Our common friend Gary (your old roomie on Alton) called me out of the blue 2 weeks ago having had a similar sense of suddenly waking up to his OWN EMOTIONS.He said the THELMA post 'you too can be a satgooroo!' (see back in the archives a few weeks ) had been his apotheosis. He saw that his emotional nature had been captured by a Hindu EMOTIONAL BODY snatcher, and suddenly was returned to him. Debby, he was as happy as Peter Pan with his shadow back! ( a tall Peter Pan that is ). He, like you, had gotten on with his life, drifted. Married, successful, etc. Even looked in here once or twice. But suddenly - a few weeks ago - WHAMMO! Sadness, emotional flushing, disorientation. Yet at the same time he was aware of being suddenly MORE alive. He said it was like he realized he had been emotionally dead on some very important levels all these years and didn't know it !! Things had been put through his GURU filter. I can't say I had had a more fun time with him on the phone in decades (he's a big business mucky muck in London these days). It was very emotionally rewarding. As it is hearing YOUR distinctive voice on these pages. Power to the People ! I said to Gary 'I guess you can't feel that you're a real cool Richard Gere, and mararaji is your Dalai Lama anymore. He said that hit it right on the head. He had drifted away , but would always drop that he had studied under a very high guru, blah,blah,blah. and he felt very together about it all. But No Longer. Anyway, I thought it interesting that the two of you hit the same point at the same time. THIS IS STILL A FASCINATING PLACE, THIS UNIVERSE. Be well. Billy says hi.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:36:09 (GMT) From: Richard Wallace Email: expremie@home.com To: Mark Appleman Subject: Hey Mark! Message:

Hope you email me some time. We've come a long ways since 1212 Josephine, eh? Do you know whatever became of the other folks that lived there? Rob and Ellen, Fred and Janet? I still live in Denver.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:49:23 (GMT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: question Message:

Are you from MI? thanks

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:29:17 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: Oh Mark---I'm really hurting Message:

I haven't been able to function properly...I cry in restaurants, walking down the street...it's overwhelming. Mark, I don't know how to explain to people who see me so sad what's going on. I'll be leaving here soon but I'll look for some words from you when I get back. I was looking for your email. Read your beautiful testimony/journal and got comfort but I need help. Shit, tears are racing and I have go back into the main library. I have the keys to a room in the University Library and access to a computer/phone etc. It's a good thing because I'm the walking wounded and I need time and space to adjust. Deborah

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:36:34 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Deborah Subject: Deborah, you're right - it hurts a LOT! Message:

What you are feeling is not weird or strange, although as PatC said, it helps very much to have support from people who understand what you are going through, and who have been through it themselves. It is true that most people don't 'get it' (I have a friend who left M suddenly, the way you did, was very upset - and a non-premie friend of hers, who had been sympathetic, asked her two weeks later if she wasn't 'over it' yet!) I know it's very difficult to go through what you are going through. I do envy your ability to get in touch with your own grief and pain so immediately. Although this ability may seem like a burden right now, it will help you a lot in the end. I came from one of those 'stiff-upper-lip/everything's all right' backgrounds, and it can take me YEARS to process grief. I was fortunate enough to live with two other people who were leaving M at the same time that I did. We were ALL basket cases at times - but we could be supportive of one another. Also, we were all fortunate in that we didn't have to function on a very high level in the 'real world' at the time! I hope you can take some time off from some of your responsibilities to take care of yourself (Swami Such had some good ideas about how to do this), or just to collapse/relax. I'm glad you're here on the forum too. Lots of love to you - I put my e-mail above if you want to use it. Take care - Katie H

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 09:44:11 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Deborah Subject: been there,done it. Good News:It gets a Lot Better Message:

Dear Deborah: Probably most of the people who post here have been through the steady process of cult scrutiny, then detachment and a personal reexamination - and the accompanying initial shock, the anger, the tears, probably despair, bitterness, sense of loss and waste in one's life, gut or chest pains, feelings of alienation, and so forth. Especially for the premie longtimers, confronting the dirty hidden skeletons in the cult closet and the money trail [at least the parts that haven't been erased or laundered] begins what can be a difficult but liberating process. First, some of us invested a huge chunk of our adult lives in the cult belief system surrounding m.'s personality cult. Some of us sacrificed the allegedly worthless illusions of careers and relationships, perhaps lived in ashrams, regularly gave hard-earned money that could have been better spent on ourselves or poor families, spent thousands of evenings at indoctrinating cult events, framed our life cosmology around dysfunctional miragey as the central concept-maker and worldly authority figure, and gave him the kind of unbridled love and devotion truly only worthy of the real God [or life energy] residing within each of us ourselves. It's just like a divorce - takes some emotional detachment [the breaking of binding strings], healing, and a lil' time for oneself in that process. It definitely gets a whole lot better progressively - within weeks. You'll be amazed at how strong and secure within yourself you may feel within a few months, too, rediscovering new or revived interests, new outlooks and epiphanies, opening up to new friends and a whole infinite spectrum of life without cult blinders and concepts -- as each layer of unhealthy conditioning, erroneous mental and emotional impressions [samsaras] is peeled away, revealing you in all your specialness as your own person. Giving blind devotion to m. for years has engendered a false sense of learned helplessness and has perpetuated a co-dependent relationship on the part of many people, whereby thousands of premies have been enabling his own dysfunctional life and addiction to gross materialism [the maya] at the expense of their own lives and destinies and the fulfillment of personal goals. You are a unique person, after all, and you have your own essence. Cultivate your talents and interests. Be kind to yourself each day. Spend some time with supportive friends or people with whom you can be yourself - without outside pressure. Chuck out or store in a box out of the way [attic or garage or crawlspace], the photos, literature and vids etc. which just remind one continually of the personality cult. If you want to acknowledge a higher power within, do what is comfortable for You now. You can meditate, or not. After a few weeks [or months], you'll be surprised how removed the guru seems from your experience of a direct inner relationship with your personal creator - no intermediary in between. We each come into this world by ourselves, and we leave it that way. But, don't feel lonely - because the universal life energy within you is taking care of you right now. Situational counselling may be helpful, too, from a certified medical/mental health professional [who is not also involved with some cult or trip]. Lots of ex-premies have done it. There is a gentler forum for recent exes or people leaving the cult. You can email the forum administrator for info. Sometimes this place [people] can be a bit harsh, although I think most people here are quite supportive of those in your situation. Get plenty of exercise - that helps with any temporary depression. Walks, hikes, jogging, biking, aerobics, hatha yoga, stretching, weight training, dancing, etc. Some natural herbs and teas are helpful when dealing with the depression that may accompany the cult exit. I have personally found that peaceful pretty instrumental music, healthy meals, regular exercise, spending time in nature or just gardening, a support network of empathetic friends, and prayer [or faith in one's own intuition and new horizons] help. There are some good self-help books that can help one understand cult and relationship codependency, setting personal boundaries, repairing hurt self-esteem, etc. Lots of longtime premies seem sad -- for good reason. They have suffered and endured a life of emotional deprival and suppression of their own unique essences, dreams, and intellects, in many respects. Their lives have been sublimated and sacrificed at the false personality altar. Take a lil' time each day to treat yourself to at least one special or fun thing - go buy a bagel or cappucino [for instance], or select an interesting paperback book, watch a funny movie, go to an art museum, buy a new top, get your nails done, get a new plant, go someplace new, paint a picture, write or learn a song, take a college or recreational class that appeals to you. If you are in a personal relationship, discuss your feelings with your partner. Give and receive lots of hugs with your family and friends. Pretty soon -- you may be feeling great! Right now, sure it hurts. But, don't let the cult b.s. get the better of you - you are a survivor, after all. You've got time now to appreciate things and interests you may have neglected or missed in your life - or not considered before. Look at this moment as an opportunity for you to recover and to reclaim your life - with all the opportunities and choices out there up to you. You are then really free, as a human being - knowing, trusting your intuition and intelligence, stronger, mentally and physically healthier, wiser, growing anew each and every day. Yes, it gets a whole lot better - with untold opportunities awaiting you each unfolding day, Deborah. Lots of love, from one who has truly been such a banana, too da lil' swami such jai suchabanana

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 05:16:29 (GMT) From: silvia Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Oh Mark---I'm really hurting Message:

You are getting in touch with yourself. Tears of a deep joy based on real freedom perhaps? Or you truly feel sad?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:41:54 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Deborah Subject: I hope Mark posts his email coz you do need a pal Message:

right now and a stranger, even a willing one like me, won't work. The crying and grief lasted for about a month for me and then it was either ''whoopee I'm free'' or ''I'm gonna get that miserable bastard!'' Maybe it's like being born again.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:23:51 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: Michele Message:

Michele, If I remember correctly, you were one of the premies posting on premie.com before it got shut down. I think you got into some interesting discussions about all kinds of things, and, unfortunately, it's one of the reasons that that site is no longer with us. Michele, since you want to speak from the heart, don't you think it's incredibly strange that none of the EV/Premie websites even allow for open discussion and debate? Don't you think that it's weird that Maharaji doesn't want that kind of discussion, and you are forced to come to a website of ex-premies to even be able to do that? Doesn't that bother you just a little? And how does that square with what your friend said: Maharaji has again & again suggested that we be real. that we come from the inside so strongly, that we don't care what people think. And when she said: Maharaji doesn't want us to be all homogenized and so afraid of public opinion that we feel reticent to express ourselves. If that is true, how come premies don't give satsang anymore, and why isn't Maharaji and Elan Vital sponsoring forums like this one so people can express what they think and feel? Why all the censorship and truncating of dicussion? What is Maharaji afraid of? And then your friend said something that is truly frightening: Remember amaroo 4, when he talked about the wild horses? Sit & listen to that segment over & over again. You'll feel so good, you'll start to giggle.' Sit and listen to it over and over again until you feel good. Yeah, right. That's real. That's being true to yourself. That's not programming. That's not a cult. No way.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:01:07 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: This is real sick stuff, Sister :( Message:

Although I admire your candid presence here I think it is very sick that you don't realize the double-mind fuck philosophy being spat over the pages. I never talked about that at the height of my guru-gullability. Maybe if you listened to contemporary enlightened people or read a fuckin book you might realize that being true...blah blah blah is something every rational person is saying these days. At least in the 70's we we're saying something enlightened. The fact that you think it is so special a thing to be uttered is because you are so inundated with your cult-thinking. Michelle, go to the bookstore instead of satsang tonight and see if anything M says is not already in print. Fuck, stupid people know what your friend naively thinks is deep satsang. Is your friend a nun, why are you referring to her as a SISTER! She's a fuckin chick, broad, babe, female friend. Please try to be sensitive about the buttons these terms have on this paticular group. THis is not an ordinary chat-room. Why do you feel you need your friend's validation? Why do you need GooGoo Maharaji's validation? Why do you so deeply seek our validation? If you would never like to feel the pain that comes with having to face the music rather than stick your fingers in your ears than don't think twice about he really is or is not. Deborah

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:46:12 (GMT) From: creativejani Email: None To: Michelle Subject: I think it's quite simple - you are enjoying the . Message:

chance to communicate with people again after a long time of being a passive receptacle to m's nonsense. I used to think I felt more love etc than non-premies, but that's nonsense too - we have no idea what anyone else is experiencing. You had to 'confess' to your premie friends because you're so unused to taking a step on your own anymore. It's a process of self empowerment and one day you'll allow yourself to see the whole picture and - hey presto, another ex, learning to live your life on your own terms and enjoying the freedom to think again. You can meditate, do what you want - just don't credit miragey with all the good bits any more. It's just you, re-joining the human race.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:52:54 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: My comment on this Message:

A premie wrote: 'we're lucky enough to get love and positive reinforcement from within. now how many people on the planet can say THAT!' Well the answer to that is pretty simple - Just about every person on the planet can do that and does do that. For some reason, premies think they're unique. They are unique in thinking that they are unique. And if the truth be told, most of their reinforcement comes from without, not from within. It comes from the Maha. Chris Dickey wrote another error such as this on his forum when he said that most people do not know their true nature. Hmmm, that's a little arrogant, isn't it. You can't see why?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:05:27 (GMT) From: CD Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: on this day Message:

'Chris Dickey wrote another error such as this on his forum when he said that most people do not know their true nature. Hmmm, that's a little arrogant, isn't it. You can't see why?' Most people don't pursue deep consideration of their true good fortune until disaster strikes. We even forget that. Hmmm Certainly all people experience love and the awe of being alive. It is often a fleeting occurance difficult to recapture. What is wrong with more emphasis on life itself? It is rather less common these days to praise true love of human beings than you imply. Money and action heros steal the show. From what I saw on the news the other night there is hatred even in Jolly Old England. That is a bloody shame. Now, on to my 50th year, here, tommorrow! Cheers and long live hope and happiness and you too, CD

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:49:25 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: CD Subject: Happy birthday to you Chris and also Message:

Fifty tomorrow! I've got to wait another 17 months for that privilege. Just one point: You know how you and I and millions of other people watch a movie and sometimes feel a tear welling up in the eye. It can be embarrasing sometimes especially if I'm watching some soppy children's film with my kids and I find tears trying to force themselves out of my eye and down my cheek when the happy ending comes. Well, we've all got that. Everyone I know has that problem, young and old, men and women. The film producers know that to and that's why they make films to tug at our heart strings - everybody has it in them. So the point I'm making is that while on the surface of things, people might look hard and tough, we all have a soft centre. All the human race and not just a few select people. I have learned more about love and its sweetness and its pain over the last ten years than I ever did in the previous 20. And that is why you see those dear old ladies and kindly old men with always a smile on their faces and a kind and helpful word. Perhaps it grows with age. But I am still only a beginner...

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:08:57 (GMT) From: CD Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Thanks Message:

Thanks to you Dave and Pat for the nice words. We do agree on many things. I remain optimistic. Bye for now, CD

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:52:46 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: You're a breath of fresh air, Sir Dave Message:

when you post your common sense kitchen sink sermons. Amen and hallelujah!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:33:18 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: CD Subject: Oh, Birthday Goddess. Happy birthday, Chris Message:

and may you have many more. I'm saying this today because I'm sure you won't be on FV tomorrow as you will have better things to do. I wish you health, wealth and happiness.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:50:32 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: Have you read the website ? if so what do you Message:

think of the information on it ? ps : we all know about 'that place' , no need to bang on about it. Pat Dorrity

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:41:01 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: You are unique Message:

Michele, As far as I know, you are the one and only smart-card premie who has ever posted here under their own full name. For that, I admire you. I do not have much admiration at all for those premies who post here under an alias because they certainly appear to have a desire to express themselves but only in disguise. They don't want to get caught standing on their own two feet, independent of the master's direction. This very issue prompts a question. Don't you feel it is contrary to Maharaji's direction for you to be posting here? The friend that you quote says that Maharaji doesn't want his premies to be reticent about expressing themselves. But I have a very strong impression to the contrary, that Maharaji does NOT want his premies expressing their individual unique perspectives about his Knowledge, rather he wants them to only talk about his Knowledge following his specific guidance and directions. I don't mean to discourage your participation here. In fact, your perspective is an interesting addition to the discussion. And I do hope you let your sister know about the information here. I think everybody deserves to know it all. p.s. I have to take strong issue with something else your friend said, about how unique it is for premies to be able to get love and reinforcement from within. My view of people is that they all have resources of love within them that they can tap into. It is not a 'rare treasure', like your friend claims. It comes standard.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:31:52 (GMT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: The US against THEM syndrome- Premie TALK Message:

This post is really, really disturbing. I simply cannot believe it. And you Michele bring it here as if what she says is good? Please enlightme. I don't get it. You friend premie said: 'Well, if anyone does anything from their heart, i don't think that is weird. it is wonderful, as a matter of fact. Maharaji has again & again suggested that we be real. that we come from the inside so strongly, that we don't care what people think. because we're lucky enough to get love and positive reinforcement from within. now how many people on the planet can say THAT! that is a rare treasure indeed. Us gainst them; we are so especial;we are so lucky; rare treasure...Rare indeed IS! Strange, extraordinary, WEIRD! What treasure, the one of walking around looking at 'the world' and feeling superior? DISGUSTING MAHARAJI, these are yoru words maharaji. You put those ideas in people's head and now premies sound like they are, pathetic. Maharaji doesn't want us to be all homogenized and so afraid of public opinion that we feel reticent to express ourselves. Oh, now premies can talk; the master gave premies permission to talk. How extremely lovely. Remember amaroo 4, when he talked about the wild horses? Sit & listen to that segment over & over again. You'll feel so good, you'll start to giggle.' How sad, very, very sad. This is a human being talking, like a total idiot! My GOD! I'm glad I never talked like that. I always talked and that why david Smith saw me as dangerous to the cult and wanted me out of my service as aspirant contact... but there wasn't NOBODY else to do it! LOL

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:16:52 (GMT) From: Scot Jamieson Email: None To: Michele Deradune Subject: The Us versus Them scene works both ways. Message:

As another person who is using my real name, and does have a smartcard, although I have stopped watching sattelite feeds or donating to EV, I, at least, don't mind you saying what you feel. Having Knowledge, getting Knowledge, and also leaving Knowledge all go deep into the realm of the heart, and in that realm it isn't at all clear how you're supposed to express yourself. Some people want a clearly anti-Maharaji attitude on the site, or become unwelcoming. But if you're in transition, it's often unclear how you look at Maharaji. It's a process having to do with deep feelings, not taking a definite stance. We all need a little slack to work things out. Take care, keep your heart open, listen to its beautiful voice. I would be glad to read what you post, oh fellow disliker of fences. Should I call you that?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:26:26 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Scot Jamieson Subject: Very nicely said, Scot J .......................NT Message:

k

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:38:46 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maha's Gulfstream V jet - second-hand was it? Message:

Search engine results on N54PR here These were among them: http://fp.djsteveb.f9.co.uk/fligh080301.htm N54PR PREM GRS BUS GS0001 Business Flight 08/03/2001 12:31 notice that? 'PREM' - gimme a P, gimme an R, gimme an E ... mmmmmmm? and: http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search also http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main wow! so the Gulfstream 5 is just over 8 foot longer than the Gulfstream 4? (Somehow I didn't think the diet was working for him).

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:30:18 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: cq Subject: Maybe - here's previous reg: Message:

Old Reg: N664GA New Reg: N54PR Old C/N: 564 New C/N: 564 Old Owner: GULFSTREAM AEROSPACE CORPORATION New Owner: GULFSTREAM AEROSPACE CORPORATION Source: http://gulfv.virtualave.net/bizjets/biz-042000.html

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:58:21 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Some of yous might find this slightly hilarious: Message:

according to http://www.aviationweek.com/shownews/99nbaa1/topsto31.htm (Aviation Week's report of the 1999 NBAA Convention, where the Gulfstream EVS (Enhanced Vision System) made its debut) the Gulfstream V that the Maha uses is serial number 564, equipped with a 'proof-of-concept EVS' A proof of ... what??? Ha! Yeah Prem Pal, keep telling everyone that only the breath is real! . . . http://www.aviationweek.com/shownews/99nbaa1/topsto31.htm

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:19:05 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: all Subject: and somebody tell me I should read EPO more often Message:

It's well hidden, but by accident I stumbled across this page at EPO: http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/finance1.htm#G5 which says that the G5's previous owner was none other than the late king Hussein of Jordan. Blimey! It's worth about $40 million. . . . P.S. How come you can't access the 'nuts and bolts' link from the front page of EPO?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:52:02 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: all Subject: whooops! - last two links need a bit of work Message:

sorry 'bout that folks. To see more pics of the aircraft N54PR, you need to go to this link (http://www.airliners.net/) and type N54PR into the Aviation Photo Search Engine 'keyword' field. For the last link, try http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=239 which will give you the specs of the Gulfstream V. (OK, I said sorry, already, didn't I?)

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 20:14:08 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: cq Subject: I notice Capt. Rawat flies the experimental... Message:

...version . Could that be corporate speak for the difficulties involved in fitting the solid gold crapper that superior powers in person can't do without ? Just a thought . Pat Dorrity

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 20:31:34 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: the experimental version ... glad you noticed Message:

or perhaps one of Gulfstream's execs is a premie?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:04:28 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: cq Subject: Just like flying but without the peanuts Message:

I saw that when I pulled up one of the pages, lol. I also liked ''Ultra Long Range Corporate Flying'' or some such nonsense. I bookmarked everything and will pass it along to bro-in-law. It's not likely he would miss a Gulfstream V at Green Airport in Providence. I'm still wondering about that Yacht, btw, should that be pronounced Yack or Yuck? haha Premiair, what a cha-ching it has to it, don't you think? The NERVE!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:14:07 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: I believe it was originally pronounced 'ketch' ... Message:

... but today yacht sounds like 'yot', as in 'wot a lot of yacht I got' How he got is the real question. Will the Maha go down in history as one of the wealthiest unemployed persons ever? (well, EV deny they pay him anything - so if they don't, who does?). Maybe he's just the wealthiest beggar of all time.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 17:38:29 (GMT) From: jsk Email: jkorvick@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: Joe- Ex from Oregon says Hello Message:

Not worthy of Journy entry, just want to reconnect with YOU. Parents did the Catholic to Unitarian trip in Miami. Went to college in Clemson in 69. Paul linked me to Meher Baba and the Dead. Dennis first told me about Mahaha in 72. Moved to Oregon in 75, had Marsha in car (premie who sang J. Mitchell and a fellow Palmetto H S friend). Kept bumping into premies in Corvallis, moved into 'Goose Farm' and then into town. Got Noledge in SF. Did the cc thing in Corvallis. (Hi Chris, Doug, Lisa) Finished school again and moved to Eugene in 78. Had the PLEASURE to work at Unity Scool (*in Eugene*) We were EXCELLENT. Hi to Don, Nancy, Karen, Jude, Jewel, Sandy, Carol, Karen, MG, and Marsha. Did lots of child care in Eugene (more fun than satsang), some security/ usher/ media at programs. Fell out of step when I moved to Miami (with other ex), got a teaching job at a H.S. and had two beautiful children. Jan is 16 and Janina is 11. Still teaching here in Ft. Lauderdale, and would love to hear from my old friends and anyone that I pissed off.(nothing personal) I'm very happy to have found this website, makes me strong...er, I enjoy finally discussing the emperor's clothes. What a SOAB! We have alot more work to do. Please take care. Love, kisses and hugs. Joe Korvick

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:23:23 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: jsk Subject: such from Dharamsala says hello! Message:

or maybe that was darnsalad got the knowledge in the college the emperor has no clothes! the emperor has no clothes. oh, such woes, such woes! Patrick, Patrick! Oh, where is my tres gay valet? Ok, Kathie Thomas, mach schnell, dis eez Napoleon!! Vhere is mein crown und mala? Whaddya mean 'the emperor has no clothes'? Operator, get me Gestapo! David Schmidt, ok, big boy, vhat did you do vit mein costume? 'Sieg ki jai, Sieg ki jai, Sieg ki jai.' Ok already, I pardon you. I pardon you... such a pretty crown. Now, make me one in pink and lavender - with a cute mink muff. And I absolutely must have a new throne - this one is clearly out of season. Reinemer, Mankoff? Achtung! Get me a new plane - NOWWWW! - and make sure it has solid gold toilet seats moulded for my divine buttocks. I hear Bill Gates has a G-5. So, get me a G-6. You dimwits heard me!! Get your sorry butts outta here and scrounge up some moola from those stupid premies -toute suite! Duh! the emperor has no clothes, the emperor has no clothes, the emperor has no clothes - hahaha, and such a lil' weewee, too. a weewee not even fit for a dolly llama. Ok, so maybe good enuf for a sly baba or ching hai... Peas and lentils, da lil' ol' swami such j. SuchaBanana

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:17:57 (GMT) From: jim bo Email: None To: jsk Subject: Joe- Ex from Oregon says Hello Message:

do you know anybody in Ashland?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 11:38:04 (GMT) From: jsk Email: None To: jim bo Subject: Joe- Ex from Oregon says Hello Message:

went there for a 'retreat' someone's house in the woods nice don't remember much.... was that you?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:33:29 (GMT) From: jim boeger Email: None To: jsk Subject: Joe- Ex from Oregon says Hello Message:

no, wasn't me

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:11:42 (GMT) From: Silvia Email: None To: jsk Subject: Joe- Ex from Oregon says Hello Message:

Welcome to our forum/yours. I hope you enjoy reading about our divine guru and us, poor fallen angels. LOL Take care. Love, Silvia

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 17:46:59 (GMT) From: PatC Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com To: jsk Subject: Hi Joe - nice to have you here Message:

What's the bet that your brief summary turns into a full-blown Journey one day when you realize that it's worth analysing your involvement since it was such a major part of our lives? Looking forward to reading more of your posts.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:23:18 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: jsk Subject: Hi Joe - nice to have you here Message:

Your post sounds fine and certainly worthy. It's good to hear from another who just drifted away and has come here to reconnect with a time of meaning but this time without a guru. Welcome.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:11:52 (GMT) From: jsk Email: None To: PatC Subject: El gusto es mio (sp) Message:

It is my pleasure to be here. I have thought about a Journey entry, especially a couple months ago when I found ex-site and began exploring. But This site is very large, and the information is very important. It seems like I read every day and I am not close to half done. With stats below of 436 messages read every hour I don't want to bog down the Journey site. People's lives are in the balance. Best of, and the search engine are great for distilling the experiences, and providing information. My experience seems so small compared to many...... but not to me.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:47:48 (GMT) From: Silvia Email: None To: jsk Subject: hablas español???? Message:

El foro español necesita visitantes. Ahi estoy, casi hablando sola. Sos Zen? Si la respuesta es si, me alegro que te hayas ido! Un beso grande, silvia

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:19:17 (GMT) From: jsk Email: None To: Silvia Subject: hablas español???? no Message:

thanks for the big kiss, no comprenda the rest...

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:49:56 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: jsk Subject: Spanish forum needs visitors... a big kissimmee(nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:57:54 (GMT) From: silvia Email: None To: jsk Subject: I think I know who you're....NT ZEN Message:

yes

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 16:52:35 (GMT) From: Press Watcher Email: None To: Everyone Subject: In the Daily Mirror today(30/5) Message:

on the page written by the astrologer Jonather Cainer, who has never had anything to do with enjoyinglife.org or ElanVital, there is a centre feature advertising Tim Galloways 'Inner Game' books. The article was written by a Mark Winter who I am sure has nothing to do with ElanVital or enjoyinglige,org. Sorry I don't have time to type it in. Maybe some Brit X could do it. PW

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:31:23 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Press Watcher Subject: TD posted this report on Cainer Message:

Date: Sat, Sep 18, 1999 at 21:05:02 (EDT) From: TD Email: thedefector@hotmail.com To: All Subject: My premie astrologer.... Message: Just some hungover Sunday musings here... Well, what better way to start the morning than with a read of the Sunday papers and a cup of coffee. And lo and behold, I stumbled upon Jonathan Cainer's syndicated astrology column. Now I always understood that astrologers take into account the difference between hemispheres when they do people's charts, so it's amusing that Cainer, who is based in the UK, is syndicated in Australia, and his readings for the northern hemisphere just transposed. Mind you, they don't mention that Cainer is in fact in Britain at all anywhere on the column, so I might have to e-mail the paper to ask them why and also ask the editor whether he/she knows Jon Boy is in Maharaji's cult... Anyway, cop a load of what Jon Boy had to say about my week ahead: 'ARIES: It is one thing to trust someone, another to place total, blind faith in another person. That's not a gesture of trust, it is an abdication of responsibility. You can't expect anyone in this world to be perfect, least of all yourself. If, though, you swing to the other extreme and start assuming the worst, the fun will fizzle out of your life faster than the air from a punctured balloon. Take a risk with your faith this week, but make it a gamble you know you can recover from in the unlikely event it fails. And, generally speaking, while Jupiter and Pluto are forming their links to Mars, beware going to extremes of any kind.' Hmmmmm. Well that's interesting advice from a premie, wouldn't you say? I wish I'd paid Jon loads of cash to get a private reading like this when I was an aspirant. Could have saved me a lot of misery, altho mind you, maybe Pluto and Jupiter were fucking with Mars at the time and thus prevented such an insight....! And he's right, the fun did fizzle out of my life like a punctured balloon, once I took it to 'the extreme' and become a devotee of his Perfect Master. And on the topics of cults, I had an interesting conversation with a friend last night, who knew I was in Maharaji's cult for four years, and we were discussing my resume which I am currently updating. We had an witty exchange about whether I should put the fact that I was in a cult on my resume, and outline the possible benefits to a future employer of having been in one. For example, having been a premie means that I can: · be a team player · be loyal to the company and believe it's the only one to work for · actively network and promote the company and its CEO to prospective clients/customers · willingly participate in the implementation of new programs · work persuasively with audio and visual presentations · work alone, but only with adequate supervision [from a Perfect Boss] · absorb information and focus on continued improvement of myself and my colleagues · be confidential in respect to trade secrets of the company in order to maintain competitive advantage · work long hours without a fuss and for no extra benefits See fellow exes, it's not all that bad. Stop your complaining and look at the bright side of having been in a cult... Regards, TD

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:53:01 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: bill Subject: cainer quoted on leaving enjoying life Message:

'All we ever wanted to do was help create a little piece of independent cyberspace where people could share their appreciation of a great inspirational teacher. This, I feel, has been successfully done. I am very proud of enjoyinglife; of all that it stands for and all that it contains. I also see, though, that in lending it my name, I have unwittingly attracted media attention to the site.' jonh cainer the liar

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:06:54 (GMT) From: bill..more lunacy from Email: None To: bill Subject: cainer, enjoyinglifeorg founder. Message:

Date: Wed, Aug 18, 1999 at 09:40:23 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: All Subject: The eclipse: a premie predicts !! Message: From this week's Private Eye (UK satirical mag): > 7 August: The paper's astrologer, Jonathan Cainer, offers further enlightenment: 'It is so important, so significant, that I hardly know how to begin explaining it to you,' he writes. 'think of it as a cosmic wash cloth which harnesses the scouring strength of Saturn, the polishing power of Mars, and the unique 'magic formula' of the planet Uranus. There's not a sad, sorry stain in the world that can withstand this cosmic combination.' 11 August: The great day dawns. 'Britain will come to a halt this morning, ' the Daily Mail announces on its front page. And if Jonathan Cainer is right, it may well stay that way. 'What if the ancient prophesies are right?' he muses. 'What if this eclipse really does spell the beginning of the end of the world? Or what, for that matter, if means the opposite? What if, as we all stare hopefully upwards at the sky, a ladder descends from the heavens? what if the creator steps gracefully down it to walk among us all in human form once more? [my emphasis] Or what if we are somehow summoned to walk up it and account for our actions here on Earth?... I am now going to offer you my very best, most honest answer: 'I don't know'. ' His guess however, is that: 'the eclipse does indeed herald an imminent day of judgement'. >

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:40:51 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Press Watcher Subject: Yes, Mark Winter is in EV Message:

Yes, Mark Winter is still part of EV, I believe. I used to know him back in the early Divine Times days, when he was the editor and I was the typesetter. He is a really nice guy. I virtually never venture over to the ELK websites (don't like to get nauseous), but the one time I did he was there with a little bio and I've heard his name come up here a few times in connection with EV. Good job, Press Watcher (whaddya doin reading the Mirror, anyhow? I like the Telegraph.)

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:34:38 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Joy Subject: Mark Winter if a Fucking LIAR Message:

I believe Mark Winter is one of the founders and guardsmen of the Enjoyingarevisionistlife.org. I think he's one of the people that edited the hell out of those submissions a bunch of us made to that website, lest they not be politically correct. Anyhow, here is a juicy comment from Mark Winter's 'Life' on the Enjoyinglife.org website, from September, 1998: In the early 70's, hundreds of us embraced this rigorous spiritual lifestyle.... We were forcing things: we were not suited to the lifestyle we had adopted and I started to feel what we printed was not always really representing the teachings of Maharaji properly. It was never his role to counsel anyone about lifestyle or career, nor was it anyone else's either. At the risk of repeating myself: WHAT A FUCKING LIAR!!!! First, Mark implies that WE just sort of made-up the lifestyle and it was our own damn fault. Forget it, Rambo. MAHARAJI was the one who PRESECRIBED the lifestyle of satsang, service and meditation, and as little else as possible. Remember the ashram? Remember the ashram schedule and the ashram manual that Maharaji, himself wrote and we all followed and which became our LIFESTYLE?? And I LOVE this little gem: It was never his role to counsel anyone about lifestyle or career, nor was it anyone else's either. Sorry about the repitition: WHAT A FUCKING LIAR!!! Maharaji commanded us to be vegetarian, do satsang, service and meditation, denigraded education and family, told us getting married was the equivalent to blowing your brains out with dynamite, gave specific agya on MANY occasions, set up the ashram and had us live it, told us to surrender our lives to him, etc., etc. How does Mark Winter live with himself and still write such obscene lies?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:38:09 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: Mark Winter is a Fucking LIAR (and furthermore) Message:

There were those five COMMANDMENTS of Maharaji that prescribed a lifestyle of no doubts, constant meditation, satsang every single day and a kind of freneti service freak mentality. But that's not a lifetsyle or anything, and certainly he didn't COUNSEL us about lifestyle, oh no, he COMMANDED it!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:12:46 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Joe Subject: Agreed, but he was still a nice guy Message:

Joe, I totally agree with every word you wrote. I thought it was true that he was editing those revisionist lies, but didn't have the stomach to go over there and check it out personally to see how much he had to do with it. Despite all the above, he was still a very sweet, lovable and fun guy, which traits hopefully have survived 30 years in the cult. He and David Passes, another sweetie but totally dyed-in-the-wool premie, were my favorites and made the otherwise Gestapo-like atmosphere in those early ashrams bearable. Good folks, in spite of M. (Hi Mark, if you see this! I still talk to Kay sometimes!)

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:30:29 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Joy Subject: Okay a NICE Fucking Liar. Is that better? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:21:52 (GMT) From: Her Maj, the Q of E Email: None To: Joe Subject: Tactfullly, one might suggest this, Joseph dear Message:

'a fruitful revisionist' . . . Awright, it means the same as wot you said, but at least it leaves less egg on yer mug.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:24:31 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Joy Subject: quote: 'a good day for crooks, cheats and liars' Message:

quote from premie Jonno (or Mr Cainer to the likes of us) on the very same page that Press Watcher directs us to: Wednesday, May 30, 2001: Moon in Virgo, Sun trine Neptune. Jonathon's message: 'a good day for crooks, cheats and liars' Well, if multi-millionaire astrologer Jonathon Cainer says so, it must be true, mustn't it? I wonder is Timothy Gallway is savvy enough to know that such a big plug on such an auspicious day may not do the sales of his books such a favour after all? Ha! (well I find it funny) PS. I wonder how much Cainer is able to donate to the Maha each month?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:25:45 (GMT) From: bill.remember when cainer Email: None To: cq Subject: said after dealing with us 'I have been thinking r Message:

really hard' Ha ha ha, He didnt think hard enough.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:23:48 (GMT) From: cq- Did Cainer contribute Email: None To: bill. Subject: to EPO? I had no idea. Must trawl the archives(nt) Message:

123

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:54:12 (GMT) From: bill--Hi cq, Email: None To: cq- Did Cainer contribute Subject: No, he funded the enjoyinglife site........nt) Message:

asfga

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 17:25:46 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Press Watcher Subject: and 2 French newspapers' articles on EPO Message:

Le Parisien du 24/5/01 L'Humanité du 25/5/01 Some more to come in a few days. French medias don't like gurus ....

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 12:19:27 (GMT) From: Kaj Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: and 2 French newspapers' articles on EPO Message:

Fantastic job, Jean-Michel! Absolutely fantastic!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:44:10 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Kaj Subject: Well, don't thank me so much Message:

This is the result of someone else's job. Gilles Alfonsi and his Combat review is the origin of the whole thing. I don't want to undermine my role in this, but this is the result of many peoples' efforts, and EPO's strength. By he way, EPO has been mentioned in another newspaper (le Figaro), I'm waiting for my copy of the article, and it's been read by millions of people in France. Not talking of the next TV show ..... scheduled in a couple of days. Quite a lot of people who've left decades ago heard of m, whom they thought had disappeared !!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 06:02:22 (GMT) From: mgm Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: rough english translation of 1st article Message:

Secte business More than a thousand persons are waiting, Saturday and Sunday, at the Palace of Versailles to the occasion visit in France Maharaji, inspiration of the very lucrative sect Elan Vital. Report. Versailles, This week-end. To enter the Palace of congress and attain the supreme happiness of meeting the man of your dreams - Maharaji, a small man without beauty, a sort of god, nevertheless - you will require your Elan Vital membership card, the assurance that you were initiated in the ' knowledge ', but especially your bank card. All the documents of inscriptions are definite: especially do not forget it. Because ' you cordially are invited ', you have reserve your place in advance, by Internet, by vocal waiter, to the worse by telephone or the watch, to the palace (in the limit of available places), but in any case ' have your bank credit card if you desire to bring a contribution '. Contribution ? 600, 750, 1,200 francs. Or 91, 114, 182 euros. Specify that ' you can, of course, make gifts of an inferior amount. Whatever (sic) your contribution, it will be essential to make this congress a success '. The list of Versailles hotels proposed is long, tariff agreements are announced but non guaranteed. The quest of happiness, decidedly, is not free. Elan Vital awaits several thousands of French followers for the visit of their guru Maharaji, passed, in some years, inspired prédicateur to the method Katmandou to the one, a lot more in today, three-piece suit with attache case. And l'Inde to the United States, paradises pseudo-new religions and sectes of all acabit, and ignorant of our law separation Eglises and l'Etat. Maharaji who, for years, comes ressourcer its followers European and improve, by-there even, his account, has never benefitted from such an advertising. The special number that consecrate for him, this months-here, the magazine Fights ( see Humanite of May 9) some does an almost unknown champion of the manipulation mental, or, to be in the wind of the new law of prévention and of oppression of movements Sectaires, abuse weakness. Fights facing the sida, Health drug corporation, the network Voltaire and those former followers, call together under the acronym of their internet site ex-premie. org, require that his visa be withdrawn , in the name of disturbance to the public order and that one investigates on its conditions of Stay. They are interested, in particular, to the manner of which this man - to the view of what it represent - was able to obtain the authorizations to circulate in the space Schengen. Some to have deprived, without doubt, since ' the uniform lines are not not sure '. Specify what the fight against the sectes, that has come to its balbutiements in France, and therefore, has fortiori, in Europe, has never envisaged to forbid movements that have not been the object of any condemnation. What is the case for Elan vital. The law that must allow this ban, in cases of ' condemnations ', will be examined Wednesday, in last reading, to the assembly National. But the coming of the guru, this time, will not pass unnoticed. Emilie Shore -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The organized fraud Jean-Michel Kahn is a former member of the board of directors of Elan vital, the founder of the internet site ex-premie. org. This is not, today, the first visit of Maharaji in France and in Europe? John-Michel Kahn. No. He comes regularly, say when all goes well, twice per year. His objective is to motivate the crowds. There is a very affective link, a very strong dependance of the followers. ' Far eyes, far courtyard ', nothing does not go more. And this is also the occasion to create, to maintain links of group with people that live their appartenance to the Movement very isolated manner. Therefore of The restructurer. Of him to give also the impression to do something important, to participate in a grandiose operation, where one spends a lot of money. Speak Budget. This operation is also a means to make money? John-Michel Kahn. Absolutely. But they will never admit it. The room cost order 100 frank 000 for the two Days. They have a budget of the order of the million francs. Each participant will give, in average, 1,000 franc for entry. Those that come from province will pay more than 2,000 francs. After one pays the cassettes for itself ' to perfect in the Knowledge ', the gadgets of all kinds. There is more than 2 millions of francs that will enter into the cash registers of the organization. All the personal, to leaves two, three persons, is voluntary. The profits can amount to 1.8 Million francs . Well sure, they will say that they have expenses, rights of authors and other. But once the money goes to the United States, there are no means to discover where it goes. It in is necessary a lot to pay itself a jet ' Gulfstream V ' and Some centers of meditations. But you speak of disturbances to the public order? John-Michel Kahn. For me, this is the organized fraud. It there has, manifestly, fraud to the TVA, since they require gifts that are, in reality for participation. In addition, 90% budget goes to the foreigner, allegedly in associations To lucrative non goal. They appeal to of the private corporations, but that they Check. The all does itself without the knowledge of the participating basis. How you explain that all that remained been unaware of public, even comparatively warned? John-Michel Kahn. People like me have always been there, but they were isolated. Most remain completely ignorant of all that. So that some thing passes in the médias, it is necessary matters huge, suicides, murders, of the financial embezzlements challenging understanding, appalling things. Or, then, A squeezed financial check. And what Question me, is this, exactly, that it did not take place. Because What Elan Vital would have done to align itself immediately. It always bet on the fact that it not some would have there Not. The gifts are participations, the takings leave abroad, the association law 1901 has only the three, four necessary persons to the respect Statutes. It seems to me that the associations 1901 do not have as their only goal to send money to the United States, non ? Elan vital it is protected? John-Michel Kahn. Maybe not. I think that the organization suffices to explain this lack of interest. Majaraji adopts a low profile and, nevertheless, if the ' Knowledge ' is what it announces, it should do of the Prosélytisme. But it lives in closed vase. It does not have any life associative and, as soon as itself profilent of the problems, it flees: when one refused for him of the rooms because it was répertorié as secte, it never did not insist, it is Gone to see elsewhere. This is Internet that did to change the things. Today, after the item of humanity, the special number of Fight, it is obliged to react, but this funny: it said to not figure in the problems in classes, but it is quoted in the report 1996, the only that give a list of the Movements sectaires. Effectively, it did not have there of List since. But that does not change anything. Maintenance Realized by E. R. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Right of response L'Humanity published extracts of a file on the sectes pulled magazine Fights - before even that she do not appear - of which the essential concern the association that I preside, while the editor in boss, M. Gilles Alfonsi, had to not have met no responsible of vital d'Elan, claiming that this is a movement that ' cultivate the secret and that does not have any public...spokesperson ' (). Has the hour where the government and the corporation take a fight legitimate against the sectes in order to protect the individuals, it would not be necessary to cheat itself cible in following ' at random of an encounter ', as you the write, an association that never had a legal problem in thirty years existence, and that is not at all répertoriée as secte in The body of parliamentary works currently in classes. This would be there a dangerous drift, carrying attained gravement to a basic right in our democracies that is the liberty of think. You speak of ' manipulation ', but this are rather them journalists that retrieved of such matters that itself Are done to handle by a former member. Since several years, this one spend an energy colossal to harm us, notably through it site Internet that you quote in your item, without that it have reasons to consider itself as a ' victim '. In fact, it does not have, to this day, never undertake Of action in justice. It has all simply decided to put an end to his participation in the association, what is his strictest right and person did not keep it, each being free to go and come in all liberty. For all these reasons, it does not seem for me useful of reply in the detail to each accusation figuring in the item, what would risk of weary the reader with polemics without Interest for him. On the other hand, it appeared me necessary to make your readers aware that your item did not reply to what one considers habitually as one of the foundations of information: the contradiction in the investigation. John-Paul Biberian preside association vital Elan Recall what the Fondation Elan Vital figure well to the number of the 172 sectes répertoriées by the report of the national assembly of the 22 December 1995, Document reference in the matter. She was besides overseen by the Pieces of information general as early as the end of years seventy, under his former name: Mission of the divine light. The compilation

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:35:17 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Jean-Michel is amazing Message:

Great work. I see there is an interview of you in one of the articles. Wish I could read it!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 07:32:37 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Joe Subject: You can even see me on the TV videoclip! Message:

Didn't you notice ? I'll have another one broadcasted soon .... 1st on TV, then on EPO !

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:21:05 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Joe Subject: Jean-Michel is amazing and inspiring.....nt Message:

adfagh

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:20:53 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: le parisien translation Message:

************************************* Le parisien *************************** The Guru chose France as the first stop of his European Tour. The esteemed master of a unique technique of inner meditation to his disciples, a dangerous manipulator, to his detractors, Prem Pal Singh Rawat, better known by the title Maharaji, this weekend at the palace of Versailles launched a series of conferences equally surrounded by controversies. Guru of the association Elan Vital, his followers present themselves as an organisation of charity, in charge of promoting the message their master, Maharaji, an American of Indian origin, has been delivering for thirty-three years, now; a profound message, to those who want to listen to it: 'That which you are looking for is inside of you, and I can help you find it. I offer what I call the Knowledge, a practical way to access that feeling within.' But behind these nice words hides a movement, reported on the list of 200 sectarian groups--cults, established in 1995, by parliamentary agreement. And the 'ex-premies', otherwise called the ex-'lovers' of the guru, are not gentle with their onetime spiritual master. ' An Alienating Organization' 'Many of us, who consecrated our energy, dedicated our money, and were devoted to what he declared was to be his mission to establish Peace in the world, have ended up by being disgusted at the using of our contributions for his personal enrichment. We have freed ourselves from the personality cult that it was', they insist. The ex-followers resent especially the 'obscenely sumptuous' lifestyle of Maharaji, financed, according to them, on the backs of the disciples. The man travels aboard a private plane estimated to cost [200 million francs, or 30,49 million eurodollars, 40 million dollars US], owns, either personally, or by intermediaries and his associates, a luxurious residence in Malibu and in England, a conference center in Australia, a 32 meter yacht... 'The front row seats at his conferences go for thousands of dollars, but he claims 'he asks nothing in exchange for Knowledge',' accuse his former disciples, for whom their spiritual quest died in brainwashed singular service to the Guru. Elan Vital is a movement little known, of which the number of practicioners in France would amount to perhaps several thousand members. 'In regards to other cults, it is a movement of minor importance. It is no longer a good example of a bizzare sect', notes Gilles Alfonsi, speaking in the current special issue of Combat magazine, dedicated this month to a long investigation of Elan Vital, indignant that the director of such an international cult organization could travel so freely throughout the territory defined by the Schengen agreement.[ freely allowed travel around a united europe.] At Versailles, the coming of Maharaji did not elicit angry reactions of contention in every case. One could argue, in underscoring the use of the Palace of Congress, that Elan Vital regularly holds 'congresses' or meetings in France. The association has a legal right to do so, and a bank account well able to pay for it. 'As long as this organization is not forbidden or outlawed in France, we don't have a single reason to refuse them the use of the location. We are not censors. It is within the public's power to take such steps, if they deem it necessary.' reported by Valérie Brioux et Nathalie Perrier translated for english comprehension by janet p schwartz

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:27:25 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: janet Subject: Thanks, Janet - you're great! Message:

I really admire your translation skills! Brian says that this quote from 'former followers': 'Many of us, who consecrated our energy, dedicated our money, and were devoted to what he declared was to be his mission to establish Peace in the world, have ended up by being disgusted at the using of our contributions for his personal enrichment. We have freed ourselves from the personality cult that it was' comes from the 'Monkey Trap' story that used to be on the home page of the ex-premie.org sites.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:37:42 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: janet Subject: Merci again, janet! n/t Message:

n/t

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:04:48 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: janet Subject: thanks a lot, janet. nt Message:

asdf

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:02:09 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Good JoB Message:

I tried to read the French but alas, could only pick up 1/2 of what was said. But the tone is clear to me. I would like to talk to you about getting officials and press people to expose Maharaji. Let's make the fucker squirm.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 17:33:20 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Liberte, Egailte, Fraternite - vive la France Message:

abas guru! Terrific news, J-M.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 16:16:38 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: Depression repost for Banana Bai Message:

I've been off-line partying in the Yorkshire Dales with kids and best pal since the weekend, so missed this (now inactive) post from Babana Bai. Yet again we have that familiar shrug of indifference when premies are asked to consider the issues of depression and suicide among cult members. A post I wrote a couple of months back says most of the things I would have said in reply. Adding one thought only: the statistical incidence of suicide among premies appears higher than among the general population, or a good many forum posts have implied as much - eg. The FOUR separate suicides in one small Canadian community alone (Jim can name them). In a number of known cases the cause of the depression can be unequivocably linked to Maharaji's messianic demands for total surrender to him. First BB's post, then my earlier thread (from Thu, Mar 1 this year). >>> Babana Bai: How are you going to count the people who did not commit suicide, who would have definitely committed suicide, had it not been for Maharaji? These numbers exist too, most emphatically, but are rather impossible to count. And yet, in a way, all those who did not commit suicide have themselves to thank too. And who is to know who is to blame on suicides for real? Suicides are famous for (sometimes) leaving blame on one person. It's like the ultimate guilt trip: 'See, it's your fault that I killed myself!' I know a woman whose husband did that. He killed himself and left a note saying it was her fault. I have to say that putting the blame on her did not make me think worse of her -- or better of him!! >>> Me: Studies have shown depression to be widespread. Many (or most) people, at some time in their lives, have experienced periods of bleakness and despair that run deeper than the more general feeling of being 'fed up' or 'run down'. To be truly depressed is to be unable to experience pleasure of any kind, or to conceive of a time you will again be happy. Nobody's best efforts to bring you out of it will have the slightest effect. You are also liable to lose the will to live. A couple of factors appear significant in determining whether or not the sufferer makes a quick recovery - or recovers at all. First is the question of whether the depression is ‘situational’ or not. That is, are there clearly identifiable causal factors (which the sufferer recognises as being the cause, such as sickness, redundancy or bereavement) or did the condition seemingly arise 'for no reason at all'? Secondly, whose fault is it? The best prognoses seem to be for sufferers whose depression is situational, and for those who don't blame themselves for the condition; the worst prognoses for suffers whose depression is non-situational and who also see themselves as responsible for the way they are feeling. Thus, for anybody who is depressed I can think of no worse place to be than in a cult - though the message you will hear from those around you is the opposite. David Smith, during my 'Knowledge' session even informed aspirants that once the world had found Margie there might be no further need for psychiatry - Maharajji will 'free you from your mind' (hmm... looking at David Smith, this last statement is not so hard to believe). As I see it, cults by their very nature will persecute depression sufferers and exacerbate their condition. It comes with the territory. Take the 'situational' factor: whatever the real-life event that brings on the understandable and legitimate depressive feelings, the cult will move the goalposts and redefine the situation. Where, say, anger might be the natural response to an external stressor, the cult will teach you that 'anger, desires, attachments rob us of eternal life...' and that one should simply ‘go within’ and ‘surrender’ to the slings and arrows of outrageous bastards… Thus, the situation you now need to deal with is your inability to experience that bliss, that love, that feeling etc. Since you cannot experience those feelings because of the bloody depression, you're in a catch 22: what should be a situational depression becomes, in reality, non-situational and therefore more deeply engrained. Perhaps a state of affairs which resembles Seligman’s ‘learned helplessness’ – more of which in a moment… If the origin is non-situational (say, viral or mineral deficiency) the depression is similarly redefined by dogma to be what you might call ‘cult-situational’, and satsangservicemeditation the exclusive medication. Again, the sufferer fails to recover; the depression remains untreated. Either way, the onus of recovery is placed in your own hands, but the cause has been obscured, and along with it your best hopes of recovery. Which, in turn, affects the second diagnostic factor: whose fault is it? Why, yours of course. Had you been 'in that place', the world would not have got to you in the first place. And if you can't see your way out of the depression right now, you can't be 'making that effort', 'surrendering completely’, can you...? I don't think it remotely sensationalist to suggest that many premie suicides - and there have been many premie suicides - might have arisen for exactly the reasons I have outlined. Ordinary, everyday (ie. serious, yet commonplace) depression 'diagnosed' as a need for greater practice of Knowlegde; innocent sufferers named as guilty parties through their failure to get happy via Knowledge. (Remember that Monty Python line, where the judge tells the accused: 'I sentence you to be hanged by the neck until you cheer up..!') Seligman, a behavioural psychologist (using a pretty cruel experiment, it has to be said) identified what he called ‘learned helplessness’. Dogs confined and given repeated electric shocks will, at first, try to escape. They quickly learn that escape is impossible and must then resign themselves to further ill-treatment. Even when a means of escape is later provided, the dogs will not bother trying to escape. A depressed person in a cult may cease to see the genuine escape routes (treatments etc.) from their suffering, thanks to the psychological barrier placed by the guru. The Master’s contemptuous references to ‘things of this world’ is in itself sufficient for closing-off the exits, for are not doctors, therapists, social-support workers all ‘of this world’ ? Mere people ‘in their heads’ who lack that ‘understanding’..? It is irresponsible of the guru and EV not to at least address the potential consequences of the -‘absolutist’ quality of Maharaji's teachings. Especially back in those early LOTU years where the manipulation through stick and carrot, fear of hell and promise of miraculous transformation is so blatant they now seek only to keep the past very well hidden. In the light of recent allegations surrounding Maharaji's off-stage behaviour, premies (such as Turner) have argued valiantly the case that lifestyle choices are matters of personal morality, and that the Master should not be judged by the criteria we apply when judging others. I disagree, but let that pass for the moment... Personal morality is one thing, social responsibility is something else. If premies commit suicide, the cult should acknowledge its occurrance (beyond the mere cancelling of banker's orders). They should keep records and investigate whether the incidence is greater among premies than the wider population. They should think about causes. Even if they only suspect so much as a link, they should take such actions as are in their power to make sure it can’t happen again. (An FAQ on the ELK site, perhaps: ‘No - Maharaji never claimed to be the Lord and he also strongly recommended proper treatments and therapies for all forms of unhappiness and mental distress wherever ‘Knowledge’ was deemed inappropriate…) They should also pack up and call it a day. Depression is a very good reason NOT to be 'enjoying life', and it is an insult to depression sufferers to even imply otherwise. Enjoyment of life is NOT universally possible with each happy new breath. And if they know so already, they should bloody-well say so... >>> (BTW: There are some strong posts from others on that thread - all tending to confirm my own suspicions here.) Archived thread

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:08:24 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Nigel Subject: cults and suicide Message:

I don't want to go into too lengthly explanation but I want to thank you for that post. It has helped me to shed some light on, for what is to me, a tragic suicide that just has happened. A neighbor boy, age 15, decided to hang himself in the woods this past weekend. I've known him since he was two. He was on a camping trip with his father and his church youth group. His family are fundamentalist christians. They believe every word of the bible. Noah's ark did happen, Adam and Eve did start the human race as described, etc. To me, it has always seemed these friends were clean living, morale, loving people but their religion was always so cultist it appeared to me. No room for doubts or exploration or diversion from what was dictated by the bible. Their son never blossomed from this truth and although my friends had gotten him help when he was having such a hard time with adolescence, their answers were the wrong thing for him. Home school, church activities and pastor would get then thru. I love these people and their family however, I am so angry and filled with saddness that their faith and belief in Jesus, was not enough to save their son from such an unnecessary death. I've often heard it expounded upon here cults and mental illness don't mix well. Oh how true that is! I am so very sad about this. Your post, however inadvertantly, gave me some comfort. I'll miss this young man so terribly. Bless you Nigel. Love, Tonette

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:04:29 (GMT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Brillant undestanding! Cults, sects, stop people Message:

from believing IN WHAT REALLY CAN HELP, advocating that total devotion to the guru, surrendering to him will bring back life in you, when in reality, one become a weird person, thinking bad about ourselves, as to say -as you puy it- that you aren't feeling good because you are not surrendering to him, you are not rememebering the HOLY name (which is maharaji, of course), you are not a good devotee/lover of taht guru. It's disgusting to me to see today how all happened and with abolute honesty I say: I was a young happy person when I met maharaji and have pictures, many,of myself to prove that. So? What happened to me? You know. It wasn't after 1987, that I called an initiator of maharaji, last name Moore, don't remember his first name, and he kindly came to my home and adviced me and my ex-husband to start counseling, I would have never accepted therapy. There have been years, and years of therapy to finally realize taht what kept me sick emotionally, spiritualy, physicly was maharaji's moronic ineffective teachings. How do I know that? Because I feel good now, that is how I know. Period. He has no power in any way over me, any more and I'm healing, becoming more and more 'whole'. I came to realize later Moore did it from his own understanding, not because maharaji instructed him to do it. He was a compassionate person, period, and smart too. Funny though, my ex-husband's son was/is (?)friend with Premlata and according to him, his name is Erik, half brother of my son Bruno, Premlata mentioned to Erik maharaji had sent her to NA because she was having drug problems. Yeah, the premies can say hearsey. Maharaji gave my 'stepson' a dog, and other presents, since maharaji's dentist named Tim something lived in the same house, i.e., live-in, sharing a home with my stepson and his mother. (they never married) I believe him, he is a good person and doesn't lie. My point? Maharaji didn't/doesn't advocated external help beside HIS help. Meditation is indirectly said by him 'The only way to happiness.' I don't think he said many things about that kind og help, maybe once or twice, and quick, without giving it much importance. He is irresponsible and responsible for the pain many of us experienced.He only cares for his own, he is not a fair person, he is not a loving person, his mind is sick. Reading this killed me: (An FAQ on the ELK site, perhaps: ‘No - Maharaji never claimed to be the Lord and he also strongly recommended proper treatments and therapies for all forms of unhappiness and mental distress wherever ‘Knowledge’ was deemed inappropriate…) This what I detest, having been told to meditate and 'all will get in place, and Nigel, I didn't never had a depression episode until few months of preparing to receive K., before receiving it. From then on I was never the same, y mind got sick, my ideas about myself got confused, and it was until I left the cult. Thanks a lot!! I'm keeping it. love, silvia

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:50:28 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Silvia Subject: premlata sent to NA?thats a hoot! NA is part of Message:

scientology!! yes!!! Narcotics anonymous, or narc-anon, was an offshoot of synanon, started by scientology and using their precepts (like e meters and clearing and all that inhouse jargon they have for their cultification to free themselves from emotional patterns and become supposedly operating thetans). my uncle teddy died on a toilet, of a smuggled overdose of his desired narcotics, while at synanon. you can tell what i think of them. thats a laugh. one cult leader sending his firtborn to be treated at the cult of another. its a biz, aint it? he sells his plane to the maharishi and his daughter to l ron hubbard. maybe he'll let reverend Moon marry off his kids to strangers in madson square garden, and let sai baba initiate his sons into gay sex, and have the raelians clone him from one of his own sperm and....

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:59:01 (GMT) From: clh Email: None To: janet Subject: Error: NA is a spin-off of AA, not scientology's Message:

synanon. Synanon is bogus, you've got that right. But NA was started by a group of alcoholic/addicts who coudn't take the way some of the AAs couldn't cope with dual addicteds. I know some of the people who got it started, about 30 years ago, and quite a few AAs who were around back then. I suppose I should be fair to synanon and say I have no 1st, or even 2nd, hand knowledge about them. But they are related to scientology and I do agree with you about them. Where NA has always seemed weak to me is they don't seem to emphasise the self work (the steps) enuf for my taste. Far fewer of them seem to make it to 5 years clean than in AA, and a high percentage of those who do seem to do both NA & AA. (and the steps.) But that's just my impression, not something I know as fact.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:03:05 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Distinction re: Narcanon and Narcotics Anonymous Message:

Having just perused the Scientologists ''CAN'' website, and surfing some more, I discovered that Narc-Anon is the Scientologists' creation. Narcotics Anonymous is an offshoot of AA, and is not related to the church of scientology. Just some obfuscation from another cult.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:16:56 (GMT) From: jim boeger Email: None To: Everyone Subject: i always felt i could communicate with people who Message:

had 'recieved knowledge', i guess because of the common experience of the process. over the years it has changed some, but the basics seem to be still the same. and even though i read all the anger on this site, i feel happy to be communicating with someone who might understand what i'm talking about.. it's the only place i have been abel to get info up to date. for days i've been wanting to hear something from Paris.thank you Jean Michel. even though you are obviously angry about something?, i think you ARE doing service. several years ago a premie started premie.com, which had a bulletin board like this for premies. he was visited by premies from the organizzation who tld him Mahrajij wanted himn to shut the site down. they took hoim out to dinneer and things. he hshut down the site. ihope he opens it agian. tilll then i guess i'l;l just have to fight with you peolpplpepeople.jai sat shit anand....... i had a really cool dream this morning where i somehow befriended this supercomputer who could easily hav

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:17:19 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: jim boeger Subject: then answer me--are you the guy i knew in 77? Message:

i wrote you a long post days ago describing myself and where i thought i knew you fro. if you are who i think you are, we shared a house in ottawa with greg kettles briefly, that he paid for by hocking his cookware at a pawn shop and never got back. i roomed with you later that summer in miami at the rex hotel on south beach, just above the 5th street causeway, if you're the sdame guy, you were short, had curly blond hair and a beard, bright blue eyes and went barefoot a lot. you got the room at the rex for free. it was at the back of the building on an upper floor. i seem to remember it painted mint green. if youre the same guy, i was the girl with the long dark hair who stayed at your room after guru puja left town in the summer of 77. for lack of anyting better to do, i went to the beach every day and worked on my tan in a tube top and cutoffs. i got a letter at summers end from my roommate in denver, telling me i better come back or i was gonna lose all y stuff, so i jammed all my belongings in a canvas us mailbag, tossed it on my shoulder and walked out to the causeway to hitch a ride home to denver. [ made it in 4 days, btw] are you that jim? do you remember those places? ottawa and miami. i got stranded in canada after montreal peace flight 77 and had to drift around montreal, ottawa and toronto until july to get back down into the US. If you are who i think you are, you and I spent quite some considerable time hanging out in both canada and miami. now will you give me a clear answer? are you him? do these descriptions match anything you remember that you- or we- did back then? if you're him, then we have an acquaintence, and i can talk to you like i know you. if this is mistaken identity and you werent in those places at those times, then i'm making a faux pas and I need to change my approach, out of courtesy. please honor me with the favor of a true answer.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:49:27 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: janet Subject: Twenty four years later - Jim still has twinkly Message:

blue eyes (and yes he is short but greying now) and has the sweetest smile when he smiles which is not often because he is not a happy man. If he were not so prickly and contrary and did not bite the hand that feeds him, he could have had me as a friend. But, unlike brain dead Hindu saints, I do not try to save scorpions. If it bites, it gets stomped.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:41:03 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: jim boeger Subject: There's something for you here, Jim Message:

A few years ago I started The original premie forum for premies to talk to each other on. Since I was the owner of the forum, not many premies posted so I gave the forum to Chris Dickey and he's renamed it Lifes Great (including the grammatical error). You may be interested in the above forum. It's more bust these days.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 17:43:19 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: jim boeger Subject: Pot calling kettle black, Jim? You aren't angry? Message:

The anger expressed here is honest heartfelt, righteous and quite appropriate. What about all your bottled up anger? You know the anger that made you want to blow up premies with a bomb? You know all the anger and resentment that you are seething with and flares out occassionally in the most inapproriate place and is directed at innocent premies? The anger against yourself and your own weakness? The anger that you have not dealt with? Yes, that anger? When are you going to see that it is caused by being lied to by M because he did not save you as he said he would and you are still stuck in misery and loneliness?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:54:04 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: jim boeger Subject: yer an asshole nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:29:45 (GMT) From: suchiebananer Email: None To: gerry Subject: booger?he thought it was ice cream,but it's not(nt Message:

haha hoho hehe haha

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 14:09:02 (GMT) From: Silvia: Help needed Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I can't find Richard's post about Dough killing Message:

himself. Can someone help me? I want to post it in the Spanish Forum. Thanks silvia

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:04:07 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Silvia: Help needed Subject: Rick's post re Doug and shootings -- reposted Message:

Here's a repost of Rick's story about Doug, the premie who flipped out and shot three women in the Tallahassee ashram. Michele should read it again and actually think about it this time. As far as I'm concerned, Maharaji's got this blood all over his hands, no doubt about it. Why? Well, for one thing, he alone was responsible for the culture he foisted upon is in the name of so-called 'God Realization'. That culture scoffed with derision at rationality and thus enabled paranoid mental illness to go unchecked in both senses of the word. For example, I remember hearing about Maharaji's great, if somewhat mad, 'saint', mahatma Fakiranand just as I started coming around. Never met the guy myself but heard lots of reverential stories about his unfettered, slavish devotion to Maharaji. In Maharaji's culture, Fakiranand was hot and we, stuck in our stolid rationality, were not. And we know what happened with him, don't we? Maharaji should have seen the writing on the wall then if not before. His values, his teaching, his whole anti-mind, anti-world trip were simply dangerous. But, of course, he said nothing. Indeed, he just kept fueling the fire higher and higher as indicated in the Millenium Rolling Stone article. Maharaji tricked us into thinking that our mind was actually an alien force occupying our so-called 'true natures'. If that wasn't enough to send some of the less stable among us into sheer madness, I don't know what could. No, it didn't happen to most. But that's merely a testament to the strength of our real human nature and the fact that our minds aren't evil snap-on tools we can jettison at will. It doesn't change the fact that many of us tried to actually follow his imaginary path and gor hurt or even hurt others in the process. And all of this because we trusted Maharaji. Trusted that he knew what he was talking about, that he was much, much more than a man, in fact, but was no less than our creator in person. When I read this story I shudder to think how the Maharaji culture alienated us against our bodies, our sexuality, our minds and personalities. Doug was a likely consequence of this bad acid Maharaji was passing around. In a way, it's surprising that he there weren't more Dougs. There certainly were a lot of broken minds and suicides as a result of this toxic conditioning and all of them fall at Maharaji's feet, just where he wanted us: 'I first met Doug Briggs in 1971 after moving to Tallahassee that year. Shared an apt. with him and a couple other guys at one point. After being in this apt for a couple months I heard of M and went to India where i was initiated. (I asked M directly if he would initiate me. He just scowled at me said he didn't have time and referred me to the mahatmas.) It didn't take too long before DLM started feeling dead just like other religions and I lost interest. Unfortunately, some of the programming must have stuck. About a year after leaving I had a mushroom trip in which I thought I experienced M as the same as the source of my own being. I got involved again and shortly thereafter moved into the ashram. Doug had been coming over to talk about metaphysics for some time and when I got involved with M again he also became interested. A short while later he had been initiated and moved into the ashram also. This was in 1973. A few months after moving in, the ashram was moved to St. Louis to support Soul Rush. In late '73 or early '74 Doug moved out and went back to Tallahassee. A short time later I fell in love with a woman in the premie community and moved out. Meanwhile, Doug had got together with a woman in Tallahassee and moved out to Denver. While I was in a premie house in St. Louis I started feeling pretty confused. I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life in the ashram and here I was living with a woman - I'd never shared a bed with a woman before this and all the changes were quite overwhelming. Doug came through on a trip from Denver to Tallahassee and spent a few days with us. I told him how I was feeling and he had a whole paranoid explanation ready. Now, as a little background, pretty much everone on this premie house had experienced things like seeing figures of light, some entity entering there bodies during meditation, that sort of thing. Many of us were a littled weirded out by all this 'phenomenon'. So Doug's paranoia dovetailed right in with this atmosphere. Doug and I ended up spending the whole night talking. Doug explained that Leslie, my girlfriend, was being used by dark forces in the house to subvert my free will. By the next morning I felt like I was about to lose it. Ended up walking aroung the streets trying to settle down. It really did feel like a bad acid trip. Scariest thing that's ever happened to me. I just wanted to get away from everyone and sort things out. Ended up going to Tallahassee with Doug (which was a mistake). We picked up another guy there and drove up to Amherst for the festival there. The whole way Doug was playing really vicious mind games. By the time we got to Amherst, I really wanted to get away from Doug. I remember him sneering at premies in general saying, 'The puppy is loose'. Got back together with my girlfriend and we went back to St. Louis, made some money and moved out to Denver. About six months later I walked in the door to our apt. one day and my girlfriend told me to sit down, she had something to say. This is when I learned that Doug had driven back to Tallahassee and shot three girls. I later learned that he'd got his girlfriend pregnant. At first he said he was going to help out. But then he began doing things like sit outside in below freezing weather with very little clothing on. His girlfriend told me later she thought he was trying to freeze himself to death. For some reason being confronted with this pregnancy triggered something in him. I visited him maybe a year later in a mental institution in Fla where he'd been locked up after the murder. Before the shootings he said he'd thought everyone had wizardly powers and could harm him. He drove up and down the Fla Turnpike afraid to put the pistol down he'd bought after being attacked by his girlfriend's ex-boyfriend probably a year and a half earlier. I think it was about a year after visiting him in the institution that I called there and was told he'd been sent back to Tallahassee to stand trial. I called the Tallahassee jail and was told Doug had hung himself the night before he was to stand trial. I myself was a mess for at least a year after spending the night talking with Doug. Would spend hours shaking. I felt that at anytime I could just go off the deep end. The fear finally subsided and I haven't experienced anything like this since.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:19:31 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Jim Subject: Strange Jim... Message:

I've always laid the blame for many suicides at Rawats door( I've known more than one sad case, myself) for just the reasons you mention in your post....funny, when this murder post came up ...I thought about it and held back from laying the blame in like manner. I figured that whatever triggered the guy to kill would have been triggered anywhere, anytime....in one sense I suppose that could be also said for the suicides. However, your post has really made me ponder this. You're right ( and I've always known it but strangely tend to forget it ) Rawat played ( and plays ) a real mind fuck game .....a real bad acid game as you put it .....with peoples lives. I mean no .....I guess he never sits down to think how he can manipulate an individual to commit suicide or murder but neither does he take ANY responsibility for the effect he has on his followers. And when the vulnerable ones of his movement fuck up big time ....then all that matters to him is saving his own ass. He's ALWAYS willing to take the credit for the happy smiles.....never the sad, tragic tears. Truth is he's a selfish shit. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:08:13 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Silvia: Help needed Subject: I can't find Richard's post about Dough killing Message:

I'm not sure what a 'Dough killing' is but if you mean Richard Wallace's account of the person who shot ashram women in Tallahassee, the thread is now in Inactive (click at top of page). The thread is titled: Sandy -:- On this rainy Saturday morning (not OT) -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 07:17:25 Also the thread just above it has some other information.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 16:17:57 (GMT) From: silvia Email: None To: Richard Subject: thanks NT Message:

n

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:27:50 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Repost - Deborah to Michael Dettmers Message:

Hi Deborah - Welcome - and I hope you don't mind if I repost your post to Michael Dettmers which has since gone inactive - I thought it was a wonderful, beautifully written post, and I'm not sure people got to read it. (It would make a great Journeys' entry, by the way!). I relate to many things in your post - and I'm sure others here will too. Take care, Katie H ----------------------------------------- Deborah's post: Michael, I want to thank you very much for your conspicuous participation in this forum. Your straight-forward approach to this subject and revealing testimony affected me so profoundly that I subsequently, cannot help but count myself amongst the growing ranks of ex-premies. Unfortunately, I have to go through this alone. (Sound familiar, anyone?) I am choking with emotions as I write this letter. My conscious mind is flooding with an overwhelming rate of grief. It is no wonder the human ego cannot, nor will not, tolerate such uninvited intrusions from the sub/un-conscious realm to interfere with our reality belief systems, especially the belief systems about our spirituality status. Here's what's going with me. I never really left Maharaji. My life just casually drifted away from premies and premie lifestyles as I cruised toward new shores. I thought about Maharaji and K occasionally but I only felt that my apron strings had been cut--that's all. Nothing dramatic--just fond, actually very fond, memories of the wild and crazy ride of my spiritual life. In brief - My life as a premie. On November 23rd, 1980 I rec'd K at the Broadripple Hotel. It was what I would call a 'Jimmy Hendrix' experiment. Lights, visions, etc. I was the Placebo that took, you might say. My new friends were the 70's show darshan freaks. They were hip and had impressive service positions. Accordingly, I found myself slipping into desireable service opportunities. I loved service. I loved satsang. I never really liked meditation, it hurt and was uncomfortable and my first show was a hard act to follow so I buried the meditation part, overcompensated in satsang and service and went for the longest bliss ride of my life. Fast FWD to last service experience Around December 4th 1986 I found myself doing service at the Oxnard Empress Hotel for the Int'l Instructors Convention. It lasted three days and I got to see and hear Maharaji frequently. Heck, I even had a chances to talk with him. You were there! You asked me do a little service project. It had to do with putting together a prospectus for some bank loan. I felt honoured to be privvy to M's confidential services. The three day event was very fulfilling and I felt at that time that my googoo gaagaa days were behind me and I welcomed the opportunity to live my life as a mature! premie. Ten Years Later I wondered what happened? Where was Maharaji, premies, programs? Where was I? Oh yea! Internet! What did I find? The ex-premie chronicles. Whaa? Now I really didn't know where I had been. I read through some passages and my impression was (at that time guys) these are the same sniviling premies they always were. These guys are still bemoaning the closure of the ashrams? Are they stuck in a time warp? Etc. You get the picture. I called Jim and told him how I found the site and told him I'd like to talk to him about his experience, or lack of, in this case. (It turns out we live in the same city.) But that meeting never happened and I went on with my life truly grateful that for me, my experience(s) with Maharaji were the best times of my life. Last Week I was reading some spiritual stuff and an inner thought arose to check out the Ex-premie page. Actually, I was thinking that I might want to see him again. But when I opened up this site the first message at the top of thread was yours. Knowing who you were, and in what capacity you served Maharaji,I was eager to read what you had to say. People blame you for not saying enough, I don't. Not at all. For a person who had to sign corporate disclosures? What do others expect from you? You're participation alone, speaks volumes and I am very greatful, although grief sticken, to have been pried loose from the shackles of my past indiscretions. This has not done a lot for my confidence and self trust. It's like realizing that I've been around school the whole day with a spiritual KICK-Me sign. P.S. EVERYONE Although it may have been Michael's name that caught my attention my proof-in-the-pudding is a result of all of your collective efforts. I grieve not only for myself because there are Cynthias, MiraBeis, Mischlers, and others, for whom I must share my compassion. I wailed last night while hot tears stained my face as the message sunk-in about MiraBei's suicide. I remember those Hindu parables, I heard them straight from the Horse-asses mouth. In case you don't get the moral Maharaji: 'MiraBei is not supposed to die, her faith and devotion are too strong. Goddamit!' Sincerely yours, Deborah Rose

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:53:47 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Katie H Subject: Thanks Deborah Message:

And welcome. I'm sure that I can speak for many in that it is not a pleasant thing to face how much of our experience is created in our minds, or how easily we were duped. However, it is important to understand what we did, and how we did it, so that we don't do it again. Also, I have to say that the the friends I met (including my husband) through Rattie's organization are wonderful people. If you look at many organized religions the core beliefs are also pretty childish. M is a fraud, but your inner experience never is/was. We just put names and concepts on it that limit it, until we bust out and set ourselves free again. Always a learner and never a follower be! Love, f

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:28:06 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Katie H Subject: Thanks Katie-- Message:

Katie, Thank you for bringing it up. I couldn't write it over at the time. I sat alone in a room crying as I wrote that letter and I'm still hurting. It feels like I've been kicked in the Solar Plexus and can't breathe. I've been overwhelmed since and I can't shake off the grief. Deborah

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:28:27 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Hey Deborah Message:

I can definitely understand why you couldn't rewrite it! Just wanted more people to read it. I think writing about it all really helps - hope to hear more. Take care - Katie

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:42:50 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Deborah Subject: the grief. its new. it will not be permanent Message:

grief is a strange visitor, deb. it comes unbidden and theres no telling when it will leave and you cant rush it. in one way its a good thing, horrible as it feels, because at least you're feeling it. its not frozen and buried and denied. its real, its true, and you are feeling. it doesnt stay this way forever. think of it as a cleansing, of something pouring out of you that has to get out, in order for you to be able to get healthy again. something like diarrhea or vomiting when you're ill. it is poison leaving you. and look how much there is/was! 21 years of it, full on and unconsciously. no wonder! those who have chronicled the process of accepting huge loss have been able to identify clear stages everyone experiences and displays during the process of facing the loss: denial anger bargaining depression grieving acceptance new possibilities the unfoldment isnt smooth. diferent aspects trigger different reactions at different moments, but by the time you get to the grieving stage, you're nearly finished. i think it was george harrison who wrote a song about it: sunrise doesnt last all morning... a cloudburst doesnt last all day... my love is up and gone and left me with no warning its not always gonna be this grey... all things must pass all things must pass away... and paul who said 'let it be' cry when it comes. let it take its course. its working its way out, like shrapnel or a bullet. dont put demands on yourself while its happening. it WILL finish-- and you WIll feel lighter, cleaner, better.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:55:44 (GMT) From: David M Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Repost - Deborah to Michael Dettmers Message:

Deborah..This post really struck me... I have had very similar experiences,and drifted away just like you..Thank you so much for your honesty,sincereity and heart felt emotions..I read the forum everyday, but had to ezpress my thanks to you for the Post....Peace..David M

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:34:05 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Katie H Subject: Thanks Katie. I had missed it originally. Message:

That's some powerful prose. Yes, it would make a wonderful journey. Hey, Fuck Face, Yes You, M. Care to comment????????????

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 10:19:54 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: First news videoclip about EV on EPO Message:

EV and Mr Rawat on French TV Excerpt of Evening News Sunday May 27, 8:00 pm on France 2. Requires a RealMedia player installed on your computer.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:20:52 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: would love to see that, J-M, but RealPlayer 7 - Message:

RealPlayer 7 won't read version 8 files. My access to the net (public access) only has RealPlayer 7 and doesn't seem to be able to handle RealPlayer 8 files (which yours is). Any chance of putting it in a format that we can all read?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 07:35:04 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: cq Subject: Ask for your RealPlayer update !!! (nt) Message:

ss

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:24:31 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: have you got shares in the company, J-M? Message:

the update costs. Money, cash, spondooliks, dig? So why not use a format that the majority of people can access? Or is exclusiveness your bag?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:54:17 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: J-M Subject: ooops - I DO beg your pardon, J-M Message:

the link to RealPlayer on your EPO (Francais) page seemed, at first sight, only to give access to the RealPlayer8Plus update (at $29.85). However, I've just put my reading glasses on and seen the free download of RealPlayer8Basic in the small print. in bigger print, it's here: http://www.real.com/welcome/index.html?lang=en&src=001129welcomepage_2 I owe you a drink?

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 07:45:21 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: cq Subject: Thanx, links updated (nt) Message:

sss

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:11:08 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jean-Michele Subject: Me, too... Message:

RealPlayer 7 doesn't read it. Does it have to be on version 8? Love, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:31:42 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Jean-Michel Subject: Awesome - Finally Message:

After 20 years of hell with the master mind wrecker I'm delighted to see that at least some action has been taken to call him to account. I wish the English speaking world were up to speed on this issue. I'm proud that I can speak French. Steve

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:45:41 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: would you translate this one? i cant hear it. Message:

webtv cant play it for me.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:38:47 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: calling Janet, translation? Message:

Can you translate this at all?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:09:43 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: First news videoclip about EV on EPO Message:

Fantastic! How to do that in Britain? It will take longer. I still don't know if the French program was actually cancelled or not. Chris Dickey implies that it wasn't. But I've not been reading many posts here. Looks like Maharaji's getting thoroughly hassled though. I wonder how the premies in France feel about this.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:22:56 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: I'll try to make it clear: the program happened Message:

but Rawat didn't show up the 1st day. He did on the 2nd day, talked for an hour or so, and left immediately. He stayed in France for a couple of hours only, and did a few suspicious tricks, like not landing when he was supposed to, showing an Indian passeport when he's not an Indian citizen anymore, didn't show up his US passport, pretending his US citizenship was pendant, and did everything to raise authorities' and journalists' suspicion (like sending a decoy before him - a small fat Indian guy, to have journalists follow the wrong car - when he left in another car a few minutes later) !! Lots of 'pendant' issues about Mr Rawat. The program ended up at 2 pm when it was supposed to end at 6 pm.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 20:18:19 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: it's almost comical Message:

Makes you wonder what he is afraid of. Thanks for posting JM.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:31:22 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I can't belive that Message:

Wow, I was thinking the other day that he will have a double working for him. and he actually did it. What a bastared son of a bitch he is. Saddam Hussain does that, and I can see where this prick is headding. Man this is utterly discusting. Ohhhhhhh grrrrrrr

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:02:25 (GMT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Perfect! TRE BIEN Jean-Michael! Message:

You can imagine how much I lke you!! You are the best.'GOD' bless your heart and mind darling, really! I admire your tenacity. Can you teach us how to do it here? E-mail me, of course. Complete, with my limited French I heard everything was explained. I loved the TABLES: All the beautiful suvenirs to remember 'god', how sweet. He is GONE. I predict he is going to be a very, to be soft, disliked person all over the world. Is just a matter of time. THANKS MILLONS!! I love you JM! :)

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 14:50:23 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: Silvia Subject: It looks like an old story will come through Message:

There were some mahatmas who foretold that there would be a time when there would be nobody left on earth who was not against the 'satguru'(other version: there would be only one left). Rawat is sure making this come through!

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:41:35 (GMT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Bob Subject: You are funny LOL Message:

I like your mind. Got my mail?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 03:37:17 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: Everyone Subject: relation mah. vs knowledge. Message:

Something I never, ever figured out, even in my most fanatical moments, was the relation of the person rawat versus the techniques. If anybody, it would be the mahatma, who would have some magic touch to impart some 'hidden energy' when touching my forehead and eyes during the initiation. It stretched my imagination a bit too far to think that rawat could influence this from a distance. Of course I accepted it as a theological fact, and tried very hard to feel a connection during the first darshan, and later. Now I can be proud to say that this NEVER worked, although I thought it was my shortcomings. I basically never liked the guy! The only way I could deal with rawat was to emulate everything I learned in my R catholic school, and pretend he was a pope or a saint.(or an ignorant vessel, a sort of 'focal point' like a medium or so) What I would be interested in is knowing how other exes saw the mechanism through which a distant person like rawat could somehow empower the 4 techniques imparted by a third party, the mahatma/instructor.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:26:26 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Bob Subject: I was a good boy Bob and so didn't .... Message:

...think about the line of command too much as per intructions . Having had a few unbidden 'psychic ' experiences (nothing to do with Rawat or k ) there are brick walls into which one can walk with the rational mind . What I mean is that not everything that happens neccessarily has a rational explanation . Some things you've just gotta go 'what was that' & walk away knowing it doesn't make any sense. Or in Rawat's case walk right on in there. Having bought the notion that he was the incarnation then anything is possible in rawatworld . JC walked on water remember. How the fuck did he do that? I know what you mean about not liking him , neither did I , & as for the holy family , least said. Maybe there's a part of the human makeup that wants to be deluded , I'd be surprised if you've never bought something you really wanted from a really good salesman & it turned out to be something you could have got a better deal on elsewhere . I certainly have. Rawat is one such ; the product has an unfortunate flaw because it's himself , k was just the comeon . These types rely on people throwing away the original packaging so the defective item can't be returned easily . Big mistake ; someone always does. Pat Dorrity

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:24:06 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: [s]he wrote upon it, Return to Sender... Message:

yes, we are marking guru concepts and related elephant dung piles 'Return to Sender'. Now mail is backing up, and something smells in the state of Premmark! thousands dung beetles are emerging from hibernation, one by one, and reclaiming their lives and identities -- as human beings. Yahweh!

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:59:39 (GMT) From: An admirer Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: You gotta way with words, Mr Bin, yes you do... Message:

And you make me laugh :-)

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 14:22:11 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Bob Subject: I feel stupid about telling this, but here goes Message:

(Please keep in mind that I was only 16, and had done a lot of hallucinogenic drugs, when I received K. Before you make fun of me!). I believed that Maharaji had somehow empowered the Mahatma to turn on some part of myself inside my head that I could not access by myself. I further believed (subconciously!) that Maharaji could control me after this was done - almost like he had gotten in my head (I believed this because of what he said about going crazy if you didn't practice K.) So my biggest fear about leaving is that I would go nuts because M had done something irreversible to my brain. It really helped me to know some other ex-premies at the time when I decided to leave. I was still afraid of going crazy though - I think they were too - but we sort of kept an eye on each other. My feeling now is that Maharaji HAS to emphasize the relationship between himself and the knowledge meditation techniques because there really isn't a relationship there. I think the relationship between M and K is - rightly - the hardest thing for aspirants to understand - because it is magical thinking. That's why the long period of watching videos, indoctrination, etc. is necessary.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:07:57 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Katie H Subject: yes,you are under his spell - surrender your mind, Message:

yes, Katie, you are under his spell - surrender your mind, because you will not need it. give him your money, for without being in possession of your own mind, you will certainly not need your money anymore. And of course - you must give him your total trust, for without your trust, he will surely not get your money [which is most precious, after all]. Indeed, he is controlling you now, Katie. You are growing drowsy; the satsang and videos are taking effect. Now, EPO appears as just a divine lila. LILA, and our dance has just befun.... haha hoho hehe This is all just his spiritual LSD, and I am he as you are me, and we are all together now. Turn off your mind, relax and float downstream... Yeah, like what if he turns off the lil' cult switch implanted in your head - what will happen then? oy vey. oogie boogie! Wait a sec! Uh, what switch? We don't need no stinking switches... I thought we were, like, born with a functioning brain already. What the heck happened here to people? oy yoi yoi!! Boy, have I got a bridge to sell you, kiddo! Ever seen the Golden Gate? For you, special bargain -- only 20,000 US dollars and your first-born child. By the way, Enlightenment is free. Peace and truth lentils, PS We won't get fooled again! Hey, yo Krishna, dude! Happy Hallowe'en!!!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 11:02:53 (GMT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Katie H Subject: don't feel stupid Message:

We were programmed to THINK that. I thought the same way, we always did at first/70s. Didn't we? He was in my head until not too long the bastrad! What an intrusive assrat! LOL. He knows to THIS point what he is doing and refuses to stop?? Whatever is coming his way he deserves it. The sad thing is that he blames the premies when things go wrong! Talking about throwing bad vibes? I can hear the mouse with his high pitch bitching. I detest him, greatly! Diccionary deffinition: Intrusive \In*tru'sive\, a. Apt to intrude; characterized by intrusion; entering without right or welcome. :) be well, Silvia

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 17:55:02 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Katie H Subject: That's the funniest thing I ever heard! Message:

Boy, were you STUPID!!!! Hahahahaha!!! Just kidding. I felt like you, actually. I felt that when I received Knowledge, something irreversible happenned in my life, that Maharaji now owned it, like I was his property. It didn't make me feel good about things at all. It gave me the creeps. I think the relationship between M and K is - rightly - the hardest thing for aspirants to understand - because it is magical thinking. That's why the long period of watching videos, indoctrination, etc. is necessary. Bullseye, Katie. If anything needs to be 'understood' before you receive Knowledge, it's the importance of Maharaji because, seriously, what person in his right mind is going to make a connection between what they experience in meditation and Maharaji unless they're brainwashed, over time, that there is one, and THAT is what the 'aspirant' program is all about.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:15:01 (GMT) From: suchaban... Email: None To: Jerry Subject: aspirin program;take 2 n call me in da moaning (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:45:58 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Hey Jerry Message:

After thinking about this some more yesterday, I realized that there's all kinds of support in many spiritual traditions for the idea of 'possession' - or as I put it 'someone getting into your head'. So it's not so weird that we thought that (you should hear some MORE of the stuff I believed back then, if you want to hear weird!) Love to you, by the way - Katie

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:08:37 (GMT) From: Bryn Email: None To: Bob Subject: relation mah. vs knowledge. Message:

Dear Bob In the last Dvd K.lesson (Harrogate 2000) M draped himself visually all over the techniques. ( I wondered at the time why he used a freeze frame at the end of each to make up thefull 15 minutes-however.) At the very end there were shots of him against a background of trippy kalaedoscopic light effects and cosmic new-age synth music.(presumably representations of the experience of the techniques) The reulting effect read like a signature by an artist on his creation. Wherever you look its MY face that is before you. Get out of that-you are now a spectator in your own psyche! Personally I think that in meditating the K way I am merely submerging myself in the clairvoyant experience of the forces that form the surfaces of my inner-bodily organs-lungs, kidneys, liver etc. There is evidence in the western esoteric stream to support this, if it sounds too bizzare to anyone.(Steiner) The idea that anyone should want to claim ownership of the experience of MY liver as HIS property is hilarious to me! Perhaps he'd like to stamp his name on my arse as well and start negotiating with me for ownership of THAT too.(The principle is the same). I could probably get a good price for its return if I tried hard-he's a powerful negotiator you know. I never was a good businessman. Time to reclaim some of my body parts I think. love Bryn

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:46:42 (GMT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Bryn Subject: LOL Give me a brake!! Message:

you are tooo much. I can't stop laughing...

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 20:03:34 (GMT) From: kev Email: None To: Bryn Subject: DVD K.lesson (Harrogate 2000) Message:

I was there as well. And looking back on it now gives me the creeps. And also, didn't you think it was weird the way he could not even be bothered to get off his fat ass and come out on stage and speak to us after the DVD had finished? Love Kev.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:10:20 (GMT) From: Bryn Email: None To: kev Subject: DVD K.lesson (Harrogate 2000) Message:

Dear Kev, I must admit I can't remember being disappointed by his non-presence at that point. I reeled out into the daylight thinking 'this is not what I bought into all those years ago. Phase two is going to have to go ahead without me. I shall 'revue my committment'! love Bryn

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:46:41 (GMT) From: Suzanne Email: None To: Bryn Subject: Same with me Message:

It was the DVD presentation that I found not only distasteful, but actually stupid. I kept thinking while it was happening that it had to be a joke, or maybe there was the REAL DVD that would come after it, or maybe Maharaji would appear on stage and laugh the whole thing off. But he was dead serious, and I was just mystified that he could be so trite and obviously grandstanding. Like you, I walked out of there in need of air and feeling really disturbed. I couldn't be associated with anything so tacky. Like you, I felt like the whole trip had changed to the point that it left me far behind and I found I didn't want to even try to catch up. I came here instead.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 00:59:03 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Suzanne Subject: Same with me-only at santa monica april 2000 Message:

m reaction exactly. along with a blood sugar plunge blackout, no chairs, no food, no sleep and the usual hincty EV attitude. first time i ever walked out on fatboy in midshow. last time, too.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:46:24 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Bryn Subject: oh that is hilarious!! Message:

Thank you, I'm still laughing. Tonette, who exited many years ago.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 18:49:33 (GMT) From: Bryn Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Guru Maharaji Stole My Kidneys! nt Message:

gh

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:22:22 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Bob Subject: relation mah. vs knowledge. Message:

Bob: What I would be interested in is knowing how other exes saw the mechanism through which a distant person like rawat could somehow empower the 4 techniques imparted by a third party, the mahatma/instructor. The way this works is a little like the way the 'Ab-doer' can turn a 40-something dough-boy paunch into 'Mr. Universe' abdominals. You have to really really believe, while creatively overlooking the obvious. --Scott

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:05:03 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: I blame it on Yogananda and Castaneda (and LSD) Message:

I mean, if you had taken ten or twenty acid trips and then read (and believed) astounding stories of bilocation, super-longevity, and extraordinary psychic feats of the sort ascribed to Don Juan in Castaneda's books and assorted super-yogis in Yoganada's Autobiography, it wouldn't have been too much of a stretch to believe that the Satguru could use hand-picked assistants to manifest his ability to reveal the Knowledge of God. In retrospect, we realize that common sense should never be abandoned, even in (especially in !) uncommon situations.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:14:03 (GMT) From: Richard Wallace Email: expremie@home.com To: Gregg Subject: I blame it on Yogananda and Castaneda (and LSD) Message:

And how about Sun Ra and his atonal propaganda from Saturn? =]

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:39:23 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Gregg Subject: I blame it on youth and idealism Message:

And a desire to improve humanities plight thru the direct experience of 'true love' delivered via meditation. I gave it my best shot but thankfully realized, not too long after receiving K, that the whole trip was bullshit. It still is bullshit by-the-way. One goes looking for peace, GOD, truth, meaning of life, you will find it. Oh how naive I was. By-the-way, fat face, oh my Guru Maharaji, you stink! Sure hope you're reading this.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:28:01 (GMT) From: Hitler Email: None To: Tonette Subject: I blame it on the Jews. (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:28:50 (GMT) From: Christina Crawford Email: None To: Hitler Subject: I blame it on Mommie Dearest (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:31:46 (GMT) From: Hillary Clinton Email: None To: Christina Crawford Subject: I blame it on a vast right-wing conspiracy (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:23:18 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Hillary Clinton Subject: Hitler, Crawford, Clinton....so funny :)) (nt) Message:

zzz

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 02:49:49 (GMT) From: Edie Gormé Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Blame it on the Bossa Nova nt Message:

n

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 03:56:33 (GMT) From: Sam Hardy Email: samhardy2002@yahoo.com To: Bob Subject: relation mah. vs knowledge. Message:

This is the dilemma which trips up the Elan Vital PR team. If M is just a teacher with techniques, why are the techniques secret? If they have to remain secret, then this implies a divine transmission over and above the techniques. If there's a divine transmission, then M is not just the meditation teacher he is purported to be publicly. And what is a divine transmission? Surely a subjective viewpoint, ranging from being able to see and hear the quotidian, through to some inner revelation of the biggish kind.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:04:27 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Sam Hardy Subject: relation mah. vs knowledge. Message:

Just finished watching the Lord of the Universe video - it took me a few goes - I was both shocked by it and embarassed to have anyone else see it - anyway there is a guy at the end who asks this very question. He is listed as an ex-premie but initially sounds just like a premie. Then he talks about the knowledge session and how the mahatma went from the Knowledge (this divine knowldge of all knowledges etc) to the Guru(the one who has given you this knowledge) - and it didn't make sense to him and he couldn't follow the leap. My experience was that once accepted the idea sort of stuck. If anyone asked me to explain it I had trouble and resorted to exhortations about 'he who gives the knowledge is greater than the knowledge' and other specious arguments. In supporting the arguments, with whatever batty logic I could use, I was in fact defending myself. Cheers peter Howie

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:17:11 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: relation mah. vs knowledge. Message:

I think I must have been asked this question many times when I was travelling with mahatmas 'preparing' people for knowledge in the early seventies (mostly in Spain and South America). I'm sure I had some idealized response. One of the dudes I translated and travelled with was Umesh Dhar, the banker mahatma, who was a bible freak. His thing was that more important than the techniques of Knowledge was the technique of sitting and meditating on a photo of MJ until you saw light everywhere. This had happened to him and he had us all doing it. When I got transferred to IHQ and got to see MJ a lot, including in the infamous IHQ conferences at which he was incredibly unkind to many people, he was definitely not the MJ I had been imagining as the source of my meditations. One of the most embarrassing things about the whole farce is that he really ISN'T the master of those techniques. It might be more justifiable if he were. I mean, I could imagine some kind of guru who really practiced them and got his satisfaction from them, for real, who could answer deep questions about them from his experience. What would be wrong with that, if he didn't abuse his power and rip you off for your trust fund? But, as many have mentioned here for years, he really doesn't know K from the inside. He gets his peace through alcohol every night. He merely tells you what to do with your fingers, not your attention, in K sessions. Very odd phenomenon ain't it?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 09:03:11 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Umesh Dar, the Bible freak who absconded with Message:

a bunch of money and a house-mother a few years after giving me K during which he read the bit in the Bible about the seed falling among weeds and choking to death etc. I felt that satsang was transmitted through anybody who spoke about K and satsang was what brought me to K. It was simply a way to bring my awareness fully into the present. I did not place much trust in mahatmas or M. To me the truth was to BE HERE NOW which is what satsang and meditation did for me. K was the most important thing for me probably because I had been doing it already for two years before I got M's version. I had also known about M for almost two years before I got K and disliked and distrusted him but, a year after I got K, I saw him for the first time. At the time I suspected that I was psyching myself up to SEE GOD. During that preceding year I had also been conditioned with arti and all the other gurujism tactics and was primed to see guru as greater than god. I did see God walk onto the stage of the Palace of Peace in March 1974 and each time after that it was more powerful and I became a darshan addict for the next ten years. There is a saying in the gurujism tradition that the guru can be a drunken buffoon with no yogic powers at all but the the faith of the devotee will transform the drunken bum into god. That says it all. Gurujism is the religion of seeing god in the master and thereby seeing god in oneself. I prefer to see god in my dogs and I am not ashamed to keep their picture on my desk at work. Gurujism is for unimaginative and un-self-motivated people who are unable to make their own effort to bring beauty or romance into their lives. Gurujism is auto-suggestion. The guru is an easy focus for people who are too lazy to make the effort to BE HERE NOW on their own, everywhere and at all times. PS I use the word GOD poetically as I am much more wary of such loaded concepts nowadays. I would probably just say that I felt very alert and alive.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:58:19 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: PatC Subject: Did he really? Message:

I never heard that! I thought he just split when Mata Ji did! Woweeeeeeeee

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 06:07:52 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Don't know first hand but that's what was said Message:

It could have been a Prempal smear campaign because he went over to Satpal. But it was told pretty much as a fact. Dar was peculiar but he was the only mahatma who could handle my intense-ness and stubborn-ness. The others all evaded or stonewalled me but he relented when I told him I was not leaving until I got K only to be underwhelmed when I realized that I knew it already. I walked out of the K session and a few months later left the cult for nearly a year and then got sucked back in when M came to London and I saw him for the first time. It was hard to keep clear of it when all my firends were premies. That was during the Holy Family Wars and when I heard about Dar. I also heard that his mother was a Bai.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 08:03:36 (GMT) From: Nick Email: None To: PatC Subject: Umesh Dhar Message:

I was driving Umesh Dhar on a small tour of premie communities in France when he heard about m's marriage with Marolyn. That night he did a programme, and as he was sitting on a stage in front of the altar, he spent most of the 10 minutes that he gave satsang for looking at the huge photo of m. He mumbled his way through, was completely distracted and just stopped talking (he normally spoke for about 50 minutes). Next day he flew back to India - I never heard of him again. Nick

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:17:05 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Nick Subject: That sounds more like the Umesh Dhar I knew Message:

At the time I was a bit skeptical of the eloping with housemother and money story because it seemed very uncharacteristic of a man who had seriously studied chritianity and presented M as Jesus. He was, in my mind at least, a pretty heavy and ponderous person. Thanks Nick. I hope Umesh found happiness because he was a sincere and honest man.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:42:22 (GMT) From: Voyeur Email: None To: PatC Subject: That sounds more like the Umesh Dhar I knew Message:

After he stayed in Nottingham ashram, I was involved in driving Umesh Dar to Newcastle-upon-Tyne and he was a most humble and sincere man. He made no demands during what turned out to be a most tiring journey through the rain and made no requests for food, toilets etc., even though he had no idea where we were going except to another industrial city in northern England. During a stop for gas, my driving partner and I bought some candy bars and, because he had gone for such a long time without food, we almost insisted that he eat one, which, after his intial refusal, he did. If he did fly back to India the day after he heard about Maharaji's marriage, it would make sense to me too.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:08:37 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Voyeur, Nick ,Pat C Subject: That sounds more like the Umesh Dhar I knew Message:

My impression too on brief aquaintance . That slander was probably put about by the very hypocrites who were shagging on the qt. PatDorrity

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:44:43 (GMT) From: Voyeur Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: That sounds more like the Umesh Dhar I knew Message:

Pat: 'That slander was probably put about by the very hypocrites who were shagging on the qt.' The words slander/hypocrites/shagging churns me up because it underlines how ones sincerity was used and abused in those days and since. Ugh!

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:13:30 (GMT) From: Sam Hardy Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: divine metaphor Message:

The popular metaphor from around that time was that M was the power station and the mahatmas were the substations. A little hard to sustain when you can't see the power lines. I never figured out if the current was AC or DC.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:49:35 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Sam Hardy Subject: A Conundrum?????? Message:

'The popular metaphor from around that time was that M was the power station and the mahatmas were the substations.' I was told and believed that.(remember telling me that SamB, the first time you gave me satsang?) There was one problem though after the family split. I was told that many of the mahatmas were not 'real' because thay were appointed by Mata Ji and not maharaji. So does that mean that all those who received knowledge from mahatmas appointed by mataji were never really premies?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 08:30:57 (GMT) From: Dave Punshon Email: None To: Jethro Subject: A Conundrum?????? Message:

Good point Jethro. Any idea who Mahatama GyanYoganandJi was appointed by? Hope you are well love Dave

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 10:09:59 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Dave Punshon Subject: A Conundrum?????? Message:

Hi Dave,I'm fine thanks. As far as I remember, Mataji used to appoint the mahatmas pre-74/5.......so that could mean that all the old-timers are not premies. Now that would be funny!!!!! Take care, love to C Jethro PS Clare got accepted to CYM part-time music school to study piano and clarinet. Thanks for your help in that area.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:10:14 (GMT) From: Dave Punshon Email: None To: Jethro Subject: A Conundrum?????? Message:

Jethro I always thought that Gyanyoganand was far too cosmic to be associated with the the Fatguru - so, this means that I was not shown the techniques by the F.guru at all - great stuff!!! Good to hear about Clare, she is a talented child. lotsa love Dave

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:37:53 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jethro Subject: A Conundrum?????? Message:

Jethro: As far as I remember, Mataji used to appoint the mahatmas pre-74/5.......so that could mean that all the old-timers are not premies. Now that would be funny!!!!! Well, presumably she did this with his blessing... so it was really him all along. After he removed his blessing she could no longer do it. It's a little like what happened to the Bulls after Michael Jordan left. Hope I cleared things up for you. --Scott

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:15:11 (GMT) From: Dave Punshon Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: A Conundrum?????? Message:

Scott Are you absolutely sure that Mataji needed his blessing? I thought that she sort of ruled the roost, like head of family, the great mother of all mothers etc... Anyhow, doesn't really bother me now as I renounced any vows I made to the Fatguru a few years ago and feel the better for it in every way, having realised that he's a fraud and unworthy of my respect. all the best Dave

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:07:08 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Oh yes you mean Message:

he removed the grace from her. Thanks I forgot that one. Jethro

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 14:44:18 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: everyone Subject: magical thinking Message:

Even a 5 year old kid nowadays would not believe this hypothetical link maharaj ji-initiation-meditation-experience. So much for the power of brainwashing. But then, it is a very ancient tradition. As a premie i always told people that knowledge was not about belief. This turned out to be exactly the opposite. As a child I liked the bible story about the bad philistines praying to the statue of the bad god Baal. The priests made the statue speak, pretended it was eating etc. Stupid philistines! they believed it! yeah yeah yeah yeah

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:52:58 (GMT) From: Bryn Email: None To: Bob Subject: magical thinking Message:

Dear Bob, I read recently of an occult theory based around the notion of Karmic revenge. It was suggested that Krisnamurti was planted in the early theosophical Society deliberately and exclusively to fuck it up! The spiritual issues were a total red-herring. The occult motive was payback by the Indian 'folk Soul' on the British 'folk Spirit' for rape,looting and pillage endured under the Raj The Eastern Spirit just wanted to tear into the first Western Occult Movement to raise its head above the parapet at the end of the Kali Yuga(1898ish)- and the Brits walked into it. And it worked it seems. The arrival of Krisnamurti threw a spanner into the works of what was quite a thriving Western Esoteric order. It became inflamed and eventualy split under a sudden injection of emotion, messiah-ism and devotion to lotus feet. Ghandi's revenge on the astral planes. Job done. I dont know about motives, but the possibility of M arriving at the height of hippy time, to gather up and neutralise with eastern promise thousands of then rampant western idealists has a similar flavour. All the spiritual struggle and striving of the Theosophists was totally irrelevant to the real issue going on. Poor old Krisnamurti was nothing more (in his early role) than a spearhead for a spiritual boot up the bum for the white men. And M? Well who knows? He had a good starter package ( I bought it) as long as you don't get enchanted. Perhaps, maybe,waffle waffle etc. I have no clue about his role in history. I know where he fits in my history though. love Bryn

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