Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:02:14 (GMT)
From: May 25, 2001 To: Jun 01, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


SB -:- have someone collected somehow -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:06:07 (GMT)
__ Carl -:- Just for the record -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:01:28 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Just for the record -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 04:40:45 (GMT)
__ banana bai -:- incredibly subjective and an exercise in futility -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 00:16:34 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- incredibly insensitive reply and stupid -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 08:39:39 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Don't speak so cavalierly about suicide -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:00:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks Marianne, and other stuff... -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:59:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Don't speak so cavalierly about suicide -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 14:40:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ I know more -:- It happened to me -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:52:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Dear sb... -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:21:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- you will be fine sb - those days were awful -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 21:00:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- *** Must Read Post *** -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 18:14:56 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- incredibly subjective and an exercise in futility -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 01:40:53 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- I know of one suicide... -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 21:45:19 (GMT)
__ __ sb -:- I know of one suicide... -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:59:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- sb..please email me...can't place the initials n/t -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:11:01 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Some are here -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:33:22 (GMT)
__ __ sb -:- Some are here -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:43:26 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- suicides -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:12:00 (GMT)
__ __ kev -:- suicides -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 01:00:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Suicides and strangers in the night -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 00:42:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ tell us then -:- suicides? Please -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:46:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ kev -:- suicides? Please -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 10:47:01 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- it was Talllahassee not Gainseville -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:34:23 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Yes, it happened in a Tallahassee premie house -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:03:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- thanks Richard you mentioned below -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:38:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Richard Wallace's story about this in next thread -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:40:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ selene -:- thanks are you 2 diferent people? -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:43:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Yes, I'm Richard, he's Richard Wallace... -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:50:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bob -:- Gainesville -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 22:31:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Tallahassee it was :) -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:28:00 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- 48 hours days, taht is what I want LOL -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:43:48 (GMT)

Sandy -:- On this rainy Saturday morning (not OT) -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:17:25 (GMT)
__ sb -:- Yes: 'part of our basic humanity was lost' -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:23:19 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Yes: 'part of our basic humanity was lost' -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:31:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Not really -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:59:38 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- M is just as bad -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:16:04 (GMT)
__ __ sb -:- M is just as bad -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:46:48 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- Helen Dateline did the story on the other cult -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:27:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- IS NOT TOO LATE -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:01:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ creativejani -:- all what people got killed in Gainsville? -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:40:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Gainsville Florida murders -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:45:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Not Gainesville, was Talahassee -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 01:52:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yes as I said on about 4 threads - was Tallahassee -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 01:56:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard Wallace -:- Gainsville Florida murders -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 18:12:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- yes, please continue Richard, thanks. (nt) -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 18:27:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard Wallace -:- yes, please continue Richard, thanks. (nt) -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 22:13:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- richard I really appreaciate your story -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:49:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Tallahassee shootings yes I am very interested -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 18:17:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- I just emailed richard -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 03:00:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- where is the Tallahassee stuff on Sir Dave's site -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 03:02:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I might be wrong I think it was Tallahassee -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:29:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sb -:- this needs to be said. Please -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:04:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Blimey! Have I just escaped from a cult or what? -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:58:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- go to the archives -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:07:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Hi there, this is the last day I sit here... -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 10:03:50 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- that's heavy Sandy. It's why there is a checklist -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:49:54 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- the healing process -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:33:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ bob -:- bipolar -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:31:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ clh -:- the healing process -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:03:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- the healing process -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:31:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- oops that was to creativejani nt -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:38:47 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- re chemical imbalance... -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:09:34 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- ''I did not tune into this show by accident'' ??? -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:37:36 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- What are you afraid of, Mr. Mind? -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:29:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Sound check..1..2..3...reality check..1..2..3 MM? -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 18:12:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- Sandy, the Barney Fife of Forum V -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 21:16:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Now you are squirming and spitting, just relax -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 21:32:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- HELP -This Nerd is stalking me -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 09:36:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- It was your stalking here that began the process -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 12:31:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- 'everyone knows there are no such things as accid' -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:45:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sb -:- 'everyone knows there are no such things as accid' -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:24:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- Your English is clear enough -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 21:07:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- gracias -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:52:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- 'didn't mean to scare you?' Really? Come off it -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:05:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ freethepremies -:- 'didn't mean to scare you?' Really? Come off it -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 04:26:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- 'i know Nufin' for sure and mean no hostilities' -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:51:52 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- ''I did not tune into this ...why so surprised ... -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:59:21 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- On this rainy Saturday morning (not OT) -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:32:34 (GMT)

creativejani -:- Miragey reminds me of Radio 3 ... -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:14:16 (GMT)
__ warpmoldy -:- Well at least Radio 3 isn't as bad as Classic FM -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:06:22 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- Well at least Radio 3 isn't as bad as Classic FM -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 11:01:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- 'modern' classic, freejazz and abstract art (ot) -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 12:53:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- more 'modern' classic, freejazz ...(OT) -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 13:12:34 (GMT)
__ sb -:- we don't have to duck. We WON! -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:17:42 (GMT)

banana bai -:- My recommendation to Maharaji -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:21:08 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- I don't like being taken for a sucker -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 15:10:35 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- I 'd love to see rawat wobbling down ... -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 22:06:23 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- I 'd love to see rawat wobbling down ... -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 15:15:02 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Christian Star, why the banana now? yer ali bai -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 21:09:19 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- My recommendation to Maharaji -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:00:39 (GMT)
__ __ banana bai -:- My recommendation to Maharaji -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:39:21 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- banana, he should split..... -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:40:23 (GMT)
__ __ banana bai -:- banana, he should split..... -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:50:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- bb-I guess the next master won't be like M.nt. -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:20:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ banana bai -:- Haha I guess not -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 14:18:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- BanBai,heres why I want your pick for next satguru -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 21:57:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- GOOD POST! nt -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 22:33:28 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- Seeing someone you know is responsible for the.. -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:49:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ banana bai -:- Seeing someone you know is responsible for the.. -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:58:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Take a vacation from your mind, which is ... -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 10:52:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- shut the fu...up!! You offended me -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 04:34:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Oh he's talented, alright -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:58:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sb -:- he/she is such a thinker. Yuck! -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 04:36:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- yeap NT -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:52:53 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Musings From The North -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 13:46:37 (GMT)
__ sb -:- Joined the 'club' -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 13:06:34 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Joined the 'club' -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:36:15 (GMT)

Tim Matheson -:- It's not the feets, stupid..it's the toenails !! -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 12:10:45 (GMT)
__ janet -:- i can think of some other nails that would give -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 12:22:26 (GMT)
__ __ Tim Matheson -:- The Practical solution -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 12:37:51 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Rawat's scared to death. Doesn't show up in Paris! -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 09:38:55 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- I still say he was sleeping off a drunk! nt -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 09:11:39 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Strange Coincidence -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 06:41:30 (GMT)
__ __ jim boeger -:- Strange Coincidence -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 09:32:17 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Sorry, Wrong Link -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 11:28:41 (GMT)
__ G -:- Can't stand up to scrutiny? -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 03:15:54 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Yahoo! Guru on the run! (nt) -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:51:40 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Bravo! Bravo! -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:12:04 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- Good News! -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:13:31 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Mind -:- Good News!/Agree and Thanks J-M -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 07:43:16 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- J-M, more information s'il vous plâit -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:38:03 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- J-M, more information please!!!! -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:45:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- No information from Elan Vital -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:45:18 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- I'm not surprised.... -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:58:57 (GMT)
__ banana bai -:- Rawat's scared to death. Doesn't show up in Paris! -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 13:37:12 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- What's he afraid of?...THE TRUTH, for starters..nt -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:16:09 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- Now this is closure! -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 13:10:32 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- Praise the (real) Lord! nt. -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 12:19:34 (GMT)
__ __ sb -:- Praise the (real) Lord! nt. -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:33:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ creativejani -:- Just an expression! I now have a picture of my.. -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 11:40:18 (GMT)
__ janet -:- Allons, enfants de la patrie, le jour de gloire -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 12:06:38 (GMT)

Disculta -:- Dettmers post from below re Abi and Jodie -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 01:39:58 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- FA /JM-should this be included in jagdeo sectionnt -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:23:16 (GMT)
__ banana bai -:- Dettmers post from below re Abi and Jodie -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 13:45:36 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- The Lotus floats undisturbed on a lake of .. -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 00:02:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Serenity is -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 13:00:18 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- To banana bai -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:40:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ banana bai -:- To banana bai -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:06:02 (GMT)
__ __ banana bai -:- Insulation -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 13:52:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- George Bush vs the Superior Power in Person -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:23:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ banana bai -:- Sandy -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:11:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Just read Arti lyrics which are still sung to him. -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 21:41:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- George Bush vs the Superior Power in Person -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:58:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- George Bush vs the Superior Power in Person -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:12:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ creativejani -:- Eating cake - it was Marie Antoinette not a .. -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:00:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ King Lous XVI -:- Marie Antoinette not a Queen of England -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:48:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Not Marie Antoinette ! (not a Queen of England) -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 11:08:17 (GMT)
__ QUESTIONER -:- Dettmers post from below re Abi and Jodie -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 03:49:46 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- Dettmers post from below re Abi and Jodie -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 14:20:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Didnt Charanand receive Knowledge from Shri Hans? -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 14:52:16 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- You're not asking the right questions... -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 11:24:18 (GMT)
__ __ common -:- defending the wolf? -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 18:01:16 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Why the alias, Questioner? -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:27:38 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Maharaji set the tone how he wanted things -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:51:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Like Mr. Mind, you have picked a name and struck -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:46:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sb -:- Like Mr. Mind, you have picked a name and struck -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 03:19:07 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- My response -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 06:51:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- My response -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:16:24 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Who are you and why are you here? -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 04:04:43 (GMT)

General Sir David Mayhem -:- You must not miss this -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 01:13:52 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- East meets West/ West eats meat -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:43:14 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- isn't she instuctor Harry Schneider's sister? -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:46:31 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- Brilliant site! Thanks. -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:33:50 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- thanks for the link -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 01:30:08 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- thanks for the link -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 01:47:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- point duly noted -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 01:56:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- She has an advantage -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 06:46:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- a bit of messin around -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:01:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gordon Showcase -:- Well the Reverend's OK -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:12:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- and then there is YOU -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:21:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- disregard -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:38:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- am not upset at Gordon Showcase :) -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:41:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rev John Hammond-Smyth -:- am not upset at Gordon Showcase :) -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:43:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- am not upset at Gordon Showcase :) -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 18:03:28 (GMT)

creativejani -:- If you really loved someone, and... -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 23:46:03 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- If you really loved someone...On top of that... -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:09:27 (GMT)
__ SB -:- I hear you -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 00:37:50 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- Look down on him! -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 02:59:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- aha -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:01:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bob -:- aha -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:08:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sb -:- destroying darkness/ignorance fills good, agree NT -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:57:33 (GMT)

creativejani -:- I wrote to the Daily Mail today, letters expres... -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 23:15:00 (GMT)
__ SB -:- thanks for the support -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 00:40:08 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- thanks for the support -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 12:24:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- thanks for the support -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 03:04:00 (GMT)
__ General Mayhem -:- Definitely on the right track -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 23:42:11 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- Definitely! Tomorrow I'm going to find the ... -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 23:58:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- how bout it, you brits? make noise. wake em up -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 03:52:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ E Bai Gum-Ladd -:- how bout it, you brits? make noise. wake em up -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 06:42:09 (GMT)

cq -:- Bada-bing! (something like that) -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 20:30:29 (GMT)

Kev -:- Maharaji The Snake -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 20:23:31 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Outsiders . -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 22:56:26 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- We're all outsiders here, Kev -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 03:44:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ kev -:- We're all outsiders here, Kev -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 10:23:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- The world is a better place -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 05:33:09 (GMT)

cq -:- Take this Knowledge and be overwhelmed! -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 20:19:23 (GMT)
__ Dave Punshon -:- Actions speak louder than words -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 09:34:01 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Actions speak louder than words -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 04:29:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dave Punshon -:- Actions speak louder than words -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 08:28:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sb -:- Actions speak louder than words -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 12:58:13 (GMT)
__ Dave Punshon -:- Words are cheap -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 09:06:29 (GMT)

Gerry -:- If Jean Michel can do it in France... -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 19:28:53 (GMT)
__ sb -:- It's possible -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 21:49:08 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- big 'hi' to you sb! -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 23:20:20 (GMT)


Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:06:07 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: have someone collected somehow
Message:
all the posts regarding premies or ex-premies who comitted suicide, attempted, killed others, etc? I need them. Too much in my hands.

thnaks

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:01:28 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Just for the record
Message:
My younger sister, to whom I had given satsang and encouragement to come to the Millennium Houston Astrodome event in 1973, and who 'received knowledge' there, committed suicide about 8 years later.

She was not a member in any support premie community, nor had she ever been. I was perhaps her only link to the world of K. However, I was on the 'other side', involved in NYC with the Spiritual Life Society, in their ashram, and she lived in rural Tennessee in her own world. Our paths never crossed. There was no time or inclination to be involved with 'family'. It just wasn't part of the ashram life.

To this day, I think my self-imposed (and subtly reinforced) remoteness to my family contributed to much dismay in their lives that I couldn't acknowledge nor allow myself to feel. My sister's suicide is something I've had to reflect upon in this context, and will continue to, for the rest of my life.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 04:40:45 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Carl
Subject: Just for the record
Message:
Carl, if you ever want to email me to talk about the devastating loss of your sister, please feel free to do so. One of my big brothers brought me to knowledge too.

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 00:16:34 (GMT)
From: banana bai
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: incredibly subjective and an exercise in futility
Message:
How are you going to count the people who did not commit suicide, who would have definitely committed suicide, had it not been for Maharaji? These numbers exist too, most emphatically, but are rather impossible to count.

And yet, in a way, all those who did not commit suicide have themselves to thank too. And who is to know who is to blame on suicides for real? Suicides are famous for (sometimes) leaving blame on one person. It's like the ultimate guilt trip: 'See, it's your fault that I killed myself!' I know a woman whose husband did that. He killed himself and left a note saying it was her fault. I have to say that putting the blame on her did not make me think worse of her -- or better of him!!

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 08:39:39 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: incredibly insensitive reply and stupid
Message:
You could definately count the number of people who would NOT have committed suicide if they had not gotten initiated into Ralwat's cult!

The rate of suicide among premies during the heavy devotional period of the cult and life in the ashram was much higher than the national average. Of course it was never discussed or looked at.

You should remember that there are many people here who lost loved ones while in the cult through suicide.

Who cares what you think anyway, Miss Knowledge. Maybe you would do well by acquiring some knowledge before you make remarks like the ones above.

Here's hoping you get a full face of Maharaji. Do I hear your call for participation? Wanted at the residence? Then come back and tell us how wonderful he is.

Glad I'm not a premie! To think I once thought like you!

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:00:01 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: Don't speak so cavalierly about suicide
Message:
You obviously have no first hand experience with the suicide of an immediate family member, banana bai. You say that suicides are famous for making those left behind feel guilty. It is not that simple.

When I was in the cult, and was 17 years old, my father committed suicide. That was March, 1973. Since that time, an uncle and a cousin also committed suicide. You could say that I have had a great deal of experience with this issue.

People who kill themselves are deeply depressed and usually experiencing some sort of mental impairment. The reasons that prompted them to take their lives are complex. Those of us who are left behind struggle to understand why it happened. It is a tragedy for all those involved. It is never so simple as your 'they're trying to make people feel guilty' explanation. You belittle those who took their own lives and those of us whom they left behind with such trite comments. Suicide comes from deep emotional despair.

The issue of premie suicides is just as complicated. Perhaps some of these people had underlying mental problems, but ashram life, and cult life, did nothing to recognize these important issues, and in fact did an extreme disservice to these premies. No one dealt with these issues head on. Meditation, service and satsang were the cure all for every ill. When premies had emotional or physical problems, that was the prescription. As a result, mental impairments went undiagnosed and untreated. And these premies got worse. So, I do blame the culture of the cult and the ashram for turning a blind eye to these premies and their problems.

Your posts reek of the revisionism so rampant in the FAQs on the Elan Vital site.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:59:17 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks Marianne, and other stuff...
Message:
Hi Marianne, how are you?

The issue of suicide is so delicate and complex. For instance, since childhood, I have had suicidal ideations, serious thoughts of suicide. But I was fortunate because a strong part of me decided that suicide is immoral. Period. That's how I saved my own life. That in no way places a moral judgement upon anyone who cannot live any longer and takes their own life, like some people who say ''it's the coward's way out.'' No. I turned out to be a survivor. I don't know why, it just turned out that way.

Yes, I had suicidal ideations while in the cult, especially at DECA and in the ashram in Gainesville. But I also found a way to self-medicate in the ashram. First, while at DECA, I was flown to Gainesville for emergency wisdom teeth extractions (two premie dentists lived there, can't remember their names, one was m's dentist). Because it was a punishable offense to be sick as a child, I welcomed the pain medication, both to relieve my physical pain and my emotional turmoil and guilt over being away from ''Service.'' I would never have known nor admitted I was addicted. I began to have severe headaches, a sign of my particular dissociative disorder which I in no way could have faced while in the cult. More medications from the doc at Broadripple. Anything to keep us going...

When I was in Gainesville I had to have about five root canals and was prescribed pain medication during about a four month time period. I was in severe physical pain, but I didn't mind having a little help, if ya know what I mean. When the root canals were over and the medications stopped I discovered valerian root. All I had to do was buy it in bulk from the health food store, get capsules and I had a very cheap supply of organic valium. It did a number on my stomach, but I was definitely self-medicating because I was in a deep depression and didn't know it. I remember looking up all of the tranquilizing herbs, buying them, mixing my own 'prescription,' and filling up the capsules. I had my own pharmacopoeia!

It wasn't until ten years later that I realized what I had been doing. The point here is that I was having suicidal thoughts while I was in the cult's ashram. Yet, I was doing everything m had told us to do, I followed the rules, I didn't cheat once (except for my stash of herbs).

That says to me that the cult was very dangerous to both healthy minded and emotionally impaired people. I knew some very stable people who remain cult members to this day. The cult is destructive to all human psyches.

I don't minimize at all what the Maharajism cult does to people, especially when it borders on life and death.

Much love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 14:40:36 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Don't speak so cavalierly about suicide
Message:
did not think that you had first hand experience with suicide. Am sorry. This idiot is a leach that has no idea what he/she is saying.

p.s is he a he or a she?

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:52:21 (GMT)
From: I know more
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: It happened to me
Message:
My first spell of depression came when I went to a city to ask for K. Sulekshna Bai didn't think I was ready and folks, by that time I had become a surrendered devotee, totally believeing he was who he said he was: God encarnated. I got very sick one time in Miami. My then husband and I rented a little apartment behind Dr. Ed's house, maharaji's doctor(I believe he delivered all his children too). Anyway, living there I got severely depressed and even that it sounds weird,I didn't sleep for 2 months and a week. I would ask my husband to help me,to take me to a hospital and he wouldn't. I was told to meditate. I was afraid to go out to the street. I got to a point, I learned later by a diagnosis) I acted like a 7 years old child, but at times I would see that I was sick and that the dillussions I was having were not real, but nobody would help me. All my premies friends disapperead, and Dr. Ed, even that he knew my mental condition never came to see me, no compassion there. Oh, wait, he sent a Valium. What a man! What a good doctor! The oath, you know... Meditate. It will go away. I ask to see maharaji in some point, he lived in Alton road at that times, few blocks away from my home, but he didn't came. It was emotional hell. I was left there alone all day long and terrified of leaving! I was allucinating, I saw things that didn't existed. I smell flowers that were not there. I suffer so, so much. I didn't even had the strenght or the reasoning to realize that I could comitte suicide to stop the suffering. I, I was gone. I tried to kill myself before K? No. I was a happy young person. I was a model in my country and also worked in TV,my contract finished a bit before meeting Lard. What happened to me?

I was so close to dying twice. I have been suicidal many times. can you imagine GOD is in this Earth and you have doubts? You maybe be a BAD person.... One time I overdose and was in a coma for two-three days. I woke up (came out of it)with my ancles and wrists strapped, unable to move, and remained hospitalized for a month and a half. Another time, I waited for a train and when it was coming a lay on the ground. Twenty-eight cars went over my head. It didn't carry me because I was so skinny. My then husband would leave me alone, go to work (very important to him=$$$) with my 2 years old son! (Is that a loving person? Is that consciusness? hell? I know hell. And maharaji has made many minds sick. My ex-husband tried to kill himself 4 times. How is it possible? Yes, both of us have suicides in our families, but like you said, mental/emotional problems were taken as 'just mind-not real' and we were told taht meditation would cure all. Bring your sufferings and I will give you peace; didn't he said that?

One day I left and went to a pay phone and called my family in Argentina and they made arrangements and I ended up in Dunellon, Fl, living for three months in the house of an Argentinian Psychiatrist, Natalio Chudnovsky, who saved my life. Very loving, compassionate person. Too bad he died and never got to see me happy as I'm today. Free. Whole again.

How is it taht I left the cult on November of 99 and i feel better than ever? Yes, cults CAN be dangerous, more when they are lead by a moron like maharaji.

Sorry to hear about what you went through.

My uncle killed himself because his wife left him and he got depressed beyond believe.

sb

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:21:09 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: sb
Subject: Dear sb...
Message:
sb, My heart goes out to you. I am sorry for the hurt and misunderstanding that you suffered at the hands of premies, and especially the premie doctor. I am sorry that the cult made you believe that if you practiced satsang, service and meditation more, you would not be 'in your mind'. I cannot imagine the pain and sorrow you must have felt which made you lie under a train... The story has always been the same - it's the premies' fault when their lives aren't perfect. According to the revisionist history, it has nothing to do with the false promises, the deification of such a flawed human being, the power bestowed upon abusive premies who were free to malign anyone they desired.

I am glad that you found the Argentine doctor who cared for you. He sounds like a wonderful man.

Thank you for sharing this part of your past with us, sb. I got the feeling you must have been crying while you wrote it. My thoughts are with you.

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 21:00:11 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: I know more
Subject: you will be fine sb - those days were awful
Message:
Prmies can argue their guts out on here about but I too know that if there is any trouble or family history, whatever, that cult involvement did not help. It didn't help me a bit. And didn't help the premies I knew that were wacked.
And I have heard their timeworn arguement about 'how do you know if you would not have been worse off w/o M?'
As if that is any help. How do I know indeed. Stupid arguement.
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 18:14:56 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: I know more
Subject: *** Must Read Post ***
Message:
Thanks, SB.

John.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 01:40:53 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: incredibly subjective and an exercise in futility
Message:
I agree with you that you cannot come up with accurate and balanced data. But look how truthful most posters dealt with this subject, how they sought a balance between seeking the cause by the patient, the disorder, the environment and the master.
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 21:45:19 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: I know of one suicide...
Message:
Hi SB,

Bill would know more details about this young woman, but her name was Debbie Katz. We lived together in the sisters' ashram in Hartford, CT until I was sent to DECA.

I was told about her suicide by a premie I knew from Hartford and I was crushed. She was very young (at most 20, 21) and I was aware before I left that she was having emotional difficulties, but any such difficulties were labeled as ''the mind,'' and never dealt with by professionals. We were supposed to surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji.

Debbie surrendered all right. She jumped off a bridge in New York. Hers is one face of so many premies I have known that will never leave my memory. What a waste of life.

I disagree with Kev. If a person committed suicide while in the Maharism cult, whether in the ashram, or anywhere for that matter, I believe it only honors them here to say their name. How could it possibly hurt them now?

I will never forget how sad and shocked I was when I heard about Debbie. I felt in some way responsible for not reaching out to her when I could. I was too absorbed at the time with being a devotee of You Know Who. I was not supposed to mind others' business. It was very clear that personal problems were dealt with in secret in any ashram I lived in.

I also know of one woman whose name I will not mention, who was in the ashram with me in Hartford and was going through enormous anguish over incest happening in her life with a sibling (before and during her ashram life). The house mother would not speak to anyone about it; I wish I could have given her some comfort too, but that was definitely not on the ashram agenda.

It seems that ashram premies who had emotional problems were either kicked out of the ashram or transferred away.

It with a very heavy heart that I relate this story.

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:59:25 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I know of one suicide...
Message:
thanks Cynthia. Read if you can my post above I know more.

You worked with my ex-husband at DECA. G.S

sb

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:11:01 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: sylviecyn@yahoo.com
To: sb
Subject: sb..please email me...can't place the initials n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:33:22 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Some are here
Message:

Shattered lives and tragedies

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:43:26 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Some are here
Message:
Thanks Sir Dave!

Love,

sb

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:12:00 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: suicides
Message:
I know one , in Holland, 1975. His name was Erik. he was quite young ,22 or so. He made several attempts, was hospitalized for this twice but eventually succeeded.
However he did make attempts before he met m. and k., and was diagnosed with major depression (episodes of).
He did OK for a while, but once he slid in a depression the cult was of course of no help. His parents did not blaim m. or DLM because they were already living in fear for this prior to m. and k. I do not think they want to be contacted, but one never knows.
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 01:00:36 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: suicides
Message:
I know of one. She was the girl friend of an old time premie. She got K and whithin a year of geting K she killed herself. Very sad case.

I think it is very sad to say that you would be hard pushed to find a premie who hasn't got a suicide story to tell.

BTW I also know of one sad premie murder story that happened in my local area.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 00:42:45 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: Suicides and strangers in the night
Message:
Hi Kev.

I think you could be right about every premie having a suicide story . I didn't think I had one myself , but have remembered .

This happened in a couple of weeks in 79/80 ? , a time when I was severely traumatised through tragedy . In other words not interested in the doings of people other than those in the line of fire.

Some friends of mine (not premies) were trying to offload a 'looney' old friend who had pitched up out of the blue .

This guy had the look , I'd never seen it before & it's impossible to describe ;like a grey ghost ,I've seen others since but that was the 1st & I didn't realise . Serious mental illness .

He got parked in a flat belonging to a premie friend who was going away for a few weeks , from which he talked to the birds & wandered around doing the music tek in public .

That's when I realised he was a premie.

A couple of days later he stuck a knife in his neck but lived ,
because someone walked through the unlocked door looking for the guy who he didn't know had gone off on holiday & called an ambulance.

He got rescued by his family who owned a hotel in the Caribean
so I heard .

My friends told me later (who'd known him before k) that he'd been the 'bagman' in the early days of DLM , flying briefcases full of money here & there in the service of the lord .


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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:46:46 (GMT)
From: tell us then
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: suicides? Please
Message:
can you?

SB

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 10:47:01 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: tell us then
Subject: suicides? Please
Message:
Feel uncomfortable about going to details. Like names and such like on the net.

Sorry.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:34:23 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: it was Talllahassee not Gainseville
Message:
Here is all I have found so far, found it in Dave's search engine.
===============begin=====================================
I remember getting the letter after the guy shot up the girls in the Tallahassee ashram (no more inner
agya!). And I remember the one after Mata Ji and Bal Bhagwan Ji split (no more holy family agya!)
- J Heller
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:03:53 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Yes, it happened in a Tallahassee premie house
Message:
As a premie from Tallahassee at IHQ Denver, someone official came to tell me about it. It was a tragedy to be sure, though I did not know any of the women or the male premie who did the shooting. I was told later by another woman living in the premie house that he pointed the gun at her and pulled the trigger but there were no more rounds. The story at the time was that the shooter told the police he had 'inner agya' (instructions from the guru) to kill the women. I believe GMJ, via a letter, said there was no such thing as 'inner agya' and expressed regret. The word on the premie street was that he was a 'bongo'. Sad indeed.

Richard Wallace, please elaborate on your awareness of this person, the reaction in Tallahassee, etc.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:38:37 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: thanks Richard you mentioned below
Message:
A few more details, the shooters name, etc.

I don't have any info, I just would like to find out more about it. The story is consisitant in that he believed he was acting on 'inner agya' and M saying later that there is no such thing is in and of itself a topic for discussion.

All I know is it was a term often mentioned in all the satangs, K reviews, and other community ashrams I visited. It's hard to believe M hadn't been aware premies were thinking this way, that he could not know they thought that he was guiding them in their 'inner' selves, not an uncommon concept in any religion.

Is he responsible ? Well he did start the cult. I don't know I am not a lawyer but it seems to me he is responsible for a lot of the things that happened especially in the 70s when things were so structured and obviously ruled by him. Which is why the revisionism happened later.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:40:45 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Richard Wallace's story about this in next thread
Message:
It's posted as:

Richard Wallace -:- yes, please continue Richard, thanks. (nt)

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:43:15 (GMT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: thanks are you 2 diferent people?
Message:
That is why I was confused. thanks.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:50:18 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: Yes, I'm Richard, he's Richard Wallace...
Message:
... and we both lived in Tallahassee.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 22:31:20 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Gainesville
Message:
I remember living in the ashram, just before or after millennium 73, when there was a statement in the divine times or so in which m. personally stated that he did not give inner agyas. he even expessed sorry for the family and told the premies to pray and meditate for them. I remember being surprised about the praying part, because everybody knows (knew) premies don't pray.
I thought it was hypocrite, but that he was 'forced ' to say this.
This event, almost forgot, was about a premie killing a bunch of folks, must have been the Gainesville event.
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:28:00 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Tallahassee it was :)
Message:
I must have been thinking of Ted Bundy. Wasn't he in Gainseville?
M's statement was a cover up. He was very happy to let us all presume 'inner agya' until it went wrong.

I feel so bad for the families and loved ones of the murder victim and also the other injured women.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:43:48 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: 48 hours days, taht is what I want LOL
Message:
thanks Selene. I really think that maybe somebody have them all. I'll keep asking. We, the ones interested in stoping rat need to know this. I'm writting letters and I am not prepared to point those facts, except for what I do have proof. :0 (read me, husband, mentally sick friends)
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:17:25 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: On this rainy Saturday morning (not OT)
Message:
Everyone is out, the house is quiet, and I was just having my coffee and checking out the morning news on the tube, and flipped to a Dateline show featuring a cult founded by one Roland Robidoux. I was riveted to the piece, hearing one phrase after another that resonated my own feelings about what is going on here with us.

Seems that a baby, one Samuel Robidoux, the grandson of the founder, was starved to death because the LORD had told Roland that the baby should only eat breastmilk and his mother was dry and he starved to death, according to the cult, because it was God's will, mysterious to understand.

One of the ex-members said onscreen that

'part of our basic humanity was lost'

which reminded me of how apparently insensitive and uncaring Maharaji, EV management so many premies are to the plight of the people here, as if you guys are traitors and not the injured parties so many of you obviously are.

Then another quote from an ex was

'the actions do not reflect the Love of God'

which expressed my heart as to the way human problems have been are dealt with as documented here.

The credo of the members was to

'trust and obey'

and that meant to trust and obey the leader's version of what God's will is, no matter what your own personal conscience is telling you.

In Court, one of the cult members was asked where Samuel (the baby) was...the answer was

'Between myself and God, it's my business'

The baby was buried in some state forest up north.

They believe they are beyond the law, answereing to a higher power coming through this guy Roland Robidoux, whose own grandson was starved to death. And the leader, Roland, the grandfather of the deceased, did not even get convicted of anything or go to jail, even though he could have prevented the death. Those closer got punished, the dad and mom.

Dennis Mingo, who left the cult with his wife and kids still in it, finally got them back in a court fight. He said that when they left the court, the kids came out of what felt like a bubble and 'came back to life'....thank God kids are resilient.
* * *

Many similarities....feeling that part of basic human decency is being lost here in this no-brainer of a case where yes-definitely-somebody-was-wronged-and-yes-definitely-it's-not-being-handled-with-basic-human-decency-and-no-it-does-not-reflect-the-love-of-God-who-said-suffer-the-little-children-to-come-to-me-for-such-is-the-kingdom-of-heaven....

The 'trust and obey' thing that really makes the hinges sag when your whole being says 'something is wrong here'.

The teacher walking and his underlings doing time, even though he could have averted the death of the baby...

I did not tune into this show by accident.

Sandy, dealing with it

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:23:19 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Yes: 'part of our basic humanity was lost'
Message:
I'm so glad that you opened yourself to reason Sandy. A big man can look at things for what they are and you are doing just that.
The truth is the truth: maharaji is not a loving man; his mind is sick.

Love is real though... take care

I don't care that you don't answer my posts. I felt like saying: GOOD FOR YOU!

SB

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:31:49 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Yes: 'part of our basic humanity was lost'
Message:
SB,

What did I not answer?? I always answer when there is something hanging (I thought)...but when somebody just makes a statement, sometimes I just read it and take it in without any comment. Was there something hanging we were talking about that I spaced out?

Sandy

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:59:38 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Not really
Message:
You were not suposse to answer. Of course not. I wrote NOT expecting an answer, from my heart, nevertheless I wrote a couple of times and you didn't say a word and I though that you had still resentment toward me for being mean to you in the past.

I do the same sometimes, I read and don't answer. It needs to stop somehow if not we will be at the PC all day answering or writting our thoughts. :)

I get truly happy when another person gets it. We all have the right to be free. Only then we can cultivate ourselves and grow to be a loving being. Crutches get on the way. hahahaha

Be well,

sb

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:16:04 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: M is just as bad
Message:
I saw that show too, Sandy. It really was a question of black and white in that case, wasn't it? YOu could see so clearly, up close and personal, the harm done to the baby. Starving one's child to death=evil.You could see where the religion became fanatacial and where superstition and blind devotion replaced a sense of humanity and decency. You could see how a charismatic leader brainwashed people into going against everything decent, even the instinct to nurture a baby. It's unthinkable, but then again, so is much of the stuff that has happened abotu M.

I think if you watched a documentary, with testimony, about the guy who was killed in the hit and run, or one of the women M hand-picked from a festival crowd to have sex with, or some of Jagdeo's victims, you would feel the same sense of shock. You would feel, 'My God, those poor people, that guru and those working for him who helped perpetuate these crimes, should be jailed!'

It's because you have had a safe distance from Maharaji that you have been able to wear blinders for so long. You put him on this pedestal in your heart and cut out what you didn't want to see. YOu needed to believe in him. Maharaji relies on the fact that there is this safe distance between him and his devotees. They never have to see what really is going on, so they can make him out to be a fairy tale superhero, here to save them. They can dismiss these charges against him as mere gossip, as it is just too painful to let go of their fairy tale version of events, starring Maharaji as superman in their hearts. If you are truthful with yourself, you will admit that you liked having the distance from M, because you really didn't want to know all this disturbing stuff.

I just want you to imagine seeing the documentary on Dateline about Maharaji, that I have suggested here. Perhaps one day we will see such a documentary if other people like Susan and Abi and Michael M, can step forward and tell the truth about Maharaji.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:46:48 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: M is just as bad
Message:
You are a good writer. We always hope that someone else will do it. I know, you are busy as most of us. I just took a brake from cleaning my home, which got BEHIND big time serving fatso. I need order.

Hi beautiful person!

luv,

sb

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:27:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen Dateline did the story on the other cult
Message:
That I just mentioned to Sandy in this thread. It is the cult in Sedona, followers of Gabriel of Sedona.
One of the problems in geting M on a documentary like this is, the current crap is so subjugated and usually doesn't show up in news byte form. I wish somene had contacted these types of shows back when the hammer went bang bang on the reporters head, or all those people got killed in Gainsville, or the hit and run or on and on.
But now, he is covering his tracks fairly well but having only recently left I know the insanity of the cult think is right there under the surface. Just can't see how it could be news worthy. Open to ideas though.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:01:36 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: IS NOT TOO LATE
Message:
people are still sick and how much goes on taht we don't know? many have committed and attempted suicide not being able to love his lardy ass.

hi sweetheart! have a nice M.weekend.

SB

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:40:28 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: all what people got killed in Gainsville?
Message:
I haven't heard that, could you elaborate a little please?
Thanks!
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:45:55 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Gainsville Florida murders
Message:
Am fuzzy on the details. It was a long time ago, in the mid 70s I think.
A 'brother' flipped out and went into a premie house and killed , was it four? people.
I'll try to find it in the archives or ask someone who lived there at the time. I do remember rationalizing it, as we did so many things, that he was either a 'bongo' premie or in his mind or what.
Sorry I don't know more right now but if no one else adds info here I'll get back to you when I find out.
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 01:52:13 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Not Gainesville, was Talahassee
Message:
ive been thru both towns, lived in G' ville
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 01:56:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: yes as I said on about 4 threads - was Tallahassee
Message:
Thanks so much for correcting me after the fact. sheesh
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 18:12:33 (GMT)
From: Richard Wallace
Email: expremie@home.com
To: Selene
Subject: Gainsville Florida murders
Message:
You may be thinking of Doug Briggs who walked into a premie - center is what I think it was called and shot 3 girls, causing brain damage in one and killing another. The third was left with a plate in her head. I new him in Tallahassee where this shooting took place. After moving into the ashram in Tallahassee, Doug, who was a friend of mine, got initiated and moved into the ashram there also. What happens from that point to the shootings is kind of a long story. I'll continue if anybody's interested. Just didn't want to get too longwinded unnecessarily.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 18:27:53 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Richard Wallace
Subject: yes, please continue Richard, thanks. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 22:13:46 (GMT)
From: Richard Wallace
Email: expremie@home.com
To: Gerry
Subject: yes, please continue Richard, thanks. (nt)
Message:
I first met Doug Briggs in 1971 after moving to Tallahassee that year. Shared an apt. with him and a couple other guys at one point. After being in this apt for a couple months I heard of M and went to India where i was initiated. (I asked M directly if he would initiate me. He just scowled at me said he didn't have time and referred me to the mahatmas.)

It didn't take too long before DLM started feeling dead just like other religions and I lost interest. Unfortunately, some of the programming must have stuck. About a year after leaving I had a mushroom trip in which I thought I experienced M as the same as the source of my own being. I got involved again and shortly thereafter moved into the ashram. Doug had been coming over to talk about metaphysics for some time and when I got involved with M again he also became interested. A short while later he had been initiated and moved into the ashram also.

This was in 1973. A few months after moving in, the ashram was moved to St. Louis to support Soul Rush. In late '73 or early '74 Doug moved out and went back to Tallahassee. A short time later I fell in love with a woman in the premie community and moved out.

Meanwhile, Doug had got together with a woman in Tallahassee and moved out to Denver. While I was in a premie house in St. Louis I started feeling pretty confused. I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life in the ashram and here I was living with a woman - I'd never shared a bed with a woman before this and all the changes were quite overwhelming. Doug came through on a trip from Denver to Tallahassee and spent a few days with us.

I told him how I was feeling and he had a whole paranoid explanation ready. Now, as a little background, pretty much everone on this premie house had experienced things like seeing figures of light, some entity entering there bodies during meditation, that sort of thing. Many of us were a littled weirded out by all this 'phenomenon'. So Doug's paranoia dovetailed right in with this atmosphere.

Doug and I ended up spending the whole night talking. Doug explained that Leslie, my girlfriend, was being used by dark forces in the house to subvert my free will. By the next morning I felt like I was about to lose it. Ended up walking aroung the streets trying to settle down. It really did feel like a bad acid trip. Scariest thing that's ever happened to me. I just wanted to get away from everyone and sort things out.

Ended up going to Tallahassee with Doug (which was a mistake). We picked up another guy there and drove up to Amherst for the festival there. The whole way Doug was playing really vicious mind games. By the time we got to Amherst, I really wanted to get away from Doug. I remember him sneering at premies in general saying, 'The puppy is loose'.

Got back together with my girlfriend and we went back to St. Louis, made some money and moved out to Denver. About six months later I walked in the door to our apt. one day and my girlfriend told me to sit down, she had something to say. This is when I learned that Doug had driven back to Tallahassee and shot three girls.

I later learned that he'd got his girlfriend pregnant. At first he said he was going to help out. But then he began doing things like sit outside in below freezing weather with very little clothing on. His girlfriend told me later she thought he was trying to freeze himself to death. For some reason being confronted with this pregnancy triggered something in him.

I visited him maybe a year later in a mental institution in Fla where he'd been locked up after the murder. Before the shootings he said he'd thought everyone had wizardly powers and could harm him. He drove up and down the Fla Turnpike afraid to put the pistol down he'd bought after being attacked by his girlfriend's ex-boyfriend probably a year and a half earlier.

I think it was about a year after visiting him in the institution that I called there and was told he'd been sent back to Tallahassee to stand trial. I called the Tallahassee jail and was told Doug had hung himself the night before he was to stand trial.

I myself was a mess for at least a year after spending the night talking with Doug. Would spend hours shaking. I felt that at anytime I could just go off the deep end. The fear finally subsided and I haven't experienced anything like this since.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:49:43 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Richard Wallace
Subject: richard I really appreaciate your story
Message:
I moved to the southwest in late 74 and remember some references to the story, but never pursued details (as a good premie would not - ick)
Thank you so much for telling this story I'm sure it isn't easy to remember these things. I really do apprecaiate it.
This is the same extreme type of story as what started tihs thread, in fact Sandy's post brought this incident up from a long ago memory. thank you.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 18:17:37 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Richard Wallace
Subject: Tallahassee shootings yes I am very interested
Message:
sb has started a thread above asking for info. Please if you have any way we can research this or know any more info, I would like to know.
I should not have brought it up w/o getting the city straight but would like to get info.
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 03:00:35 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I just emailed richard
Message:
Sir dave has a section in his site!

hi Selene, having fun? :))

love,
sb

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 03:02:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: where is the Tallahassee stuff on Sir Dave's site
Message:
I couldn't find it but I did a brief search. Can you give me the url?
I'm super, thanks for asking :)
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:29:43 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I might be wrong I think it was Tallahassee
Message:
Am still looking.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:04:30 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: this needs to be said. Please
Message:
How can we find out? In the death records? Police records? Emailing the Gainsville, FL. Police Department? Under the Freedom of Information act, saying that WE NEED TO KNOW the information needs to be given to us. I'm glad I open this message. I can imagine all I miss. aggghhh...

what do u think?

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:58:51 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Blimey! Have I just escaped from a cult or what?
Message:
I never knew that, thanks for the info. Seems I missed a lot of bad things - phew! 'The True History of Miragey's 30 years in the West' would make quite a devastating programme, n'est-ce pas?
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:07:56 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: go to the archives
Message:
and be strong and rejoice you are out. Don't panic. Lots of stories can help you understand the irrationality of rawat.

SB, who at first couldn't stop reading.

Hi there!! :)

sb

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 10:03:50 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Hi there, this is the last day I sit here...
Message:
and read. I think I've found out quite enough and I do feel extremely lucky that I was too young to move into the ashram when I wanted to, and still had the family ties to hold me back from making a really BIG mistake. But I still believe the love of being creative and expressing myself freely also helped me remain clear of his full influence. How are you today, sb? Remember the love, and prosper!
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:49:54 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: that's heavy Sandy. It's why there is a checklist
Message:
And I don't mean EV's checklist. Although this story is particuarly heartbreaking it is representative of the cult think taken to the extreme. And when it doesn't end up in court, but hidden or manifested in the ruins of one's personal life, relationship, mental or physical health it may not make Dateline but the damage is done.

We have one near here where the children are not raised by their parents but by the cult as a whole, housed in compounds etc. Reminds me of that TV show Dark Angel. They are in 'school' daily and one can imagne what they are taught about the cult leader, wo claims to channel God and have been chosen to do this.

I recently spoke with another ex about my situation and told her I am not so sure that I will always need to take meds, that perhaps the thought processes and weird hypnosis I lived under for so long actually had triggered a physical, biochemical imbalance. just speculation, couldn't prove it in court but I think it's true.

Thanks and good insights into how some premies treat the people on this site. but Enjoy The Rain Sandy. It's dry dusty and going to be 104 again today here.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:33:14 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: the healing process
Message:
Thanks for the interesting suggestions. You are right in that we know our own minds and bodies and the doctors can only guess. Thing is, if someone is not in a cognitive place (yet) it may be better to go with the advice of someone trained in this type of thing IF they are a good doctor.
I am seeing a time in the future when I won't take meds for my so called manic disorder. I really believe what we talked about in the above posts about the lifestyle and indoctrination having side effects like mine.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:31:00 (GMT)
From: bob
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: bipolar
Message:
no capitals, cause i'm eating strawberries, one finger available: be careful with stopping meds i just wanted to start a thread about this,reading about the suicides. i have seen several outbreaks of manic episodes, just when bipolars get knowledge. they feel great, or they think they have to, and think they don't need their meds anymore. sure enough, after a few days the police has to get them off the street. i know a few funny stories about this, but of course this is not funny for the patient or their family/friends.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:03:36 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: the healing process
Message:
Just take it slow and careful when you do feel the time is right to quit your meds. in 10 years in AA i've seen some quit their meds nice and clean, simple, with no problems and I've seen others who did have problems (some needed to go back on meds, some changed to different meds, some toughed it out OK.) It's really case by case. Good luck. Heathy abition, IMO.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:31:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: clh and bob
Subject: the healing process
Message:
Thanks to both of you. After finally getting the right diagnosis and the 'right stuff' I have no intention of quitting meds cold turkey or anything drastic like that. I agree wholeheartedly, there is no predicting what can happen. It's IMO a selfish thing to inflict on those around me, to quit meds w/o supervision and make them go through the aftermath.
I only meant to point out that I do think years of trauma, whatever trauma, can trigger this disorder and that, PERHAPS, maybe, years of healing can reverse it.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:38:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: oops that was to creativejani nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:09:34 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: re chemical imbalance...
Message:
Hi, I think you could be right, chemical imbalances can come from wrong (or rather conflicting) beliefs. Have you heard of Radionics? I'm just trying it out, and seems very possible that you could re-balance yourself quite easily - with this or any number of other energy healing systems. I've been ill for about 16 years, not directly from my belonging to the cult but in some ways it was a cop-out from facing all the problems I had about myself being loved/feeling I belonged - which was what attracted me to satsang. The first time I walked into a hall full of blissed-out premies, early 1972, I felt love for the first time in my life. So I was immediately hooked, and tried to ignore my family and my feelings about them for the next decade or so. I'm sure for me that is what lead uup to me having cancer last year.

It starts going wrong in the energy fields before becoming physical, and you can decide to re-balance. Take the reins, don't feel a victim in any way - from now, you can start to become totally healthy just by deciding that's what you want to do.

No need to wait for a doctor or any other person in a position of power - the internet is full fo great new technologies that can helop, but really whatever you choose, I think it's your own decision that counts most. Then all the help you need will appear as if by magic - cos actually this world is a pretty magical place, once you allow your imagination full rein there's nothing you can't do. This is my experience, anyway.
Best wishes, good health and all good things to you!
Jani.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:37:36 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: ''I did not tune into this show by accident'' ???
Message:
That reminds me of the still active Rawatian cult member who made a phone call. The line was busy(when was the last time anyone got a busy signal-end of ASIDE)so he hung up and said the then Guru Maharaj Ji must not want him to speak to this person.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:29:27 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: What are you afraid of, Mr. Mind?
Message:
You have chosen a handle that has been a symbol of something to be feared and avoided, something with enough power to destroy a person.

People who project fear are themselves afraid. What are you afraid of, Mr. Mind?

As for the 'no accidents' thing, I first saw that in the 'Be Here Now' book. No need for you to try to smear me over it, everyone knows there are no such things as accidents who wnats to know. If you want to deny it, go ahead. Free will.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 18:12:19 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Meester Mind
Subject: Sound check..1..2..3...reality check..1..2..3 MM?
Message:
Hello?

Yeah, I know how that realization about being scary/scared can affect a person. Someone told me that about 30 years ago and it turned my head around to see myself, too. Take your time. I'm not gonna bite ya.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 21:16:15 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy, the Barney Fife of Forum V
Message:
Ok, tough guy. Thanks for not biting me.

Sincerely,

It's me, it's me, it's Ernest T. (Bass). and no I'm not Otis the drunk.

I am no lady perfuming her farts
I am a scoundrel
A lover of arts
I am what I am
and I screw when I can
I'm Popeye the Sailor Man !

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 21:32:30 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Now you are squirming and spitting, just relax
Message:
If you can't or won't answer my original question, fine. No problem. No need to feel cornered and come out swinging and namecalling.

Now once again, nice and easy, what is it that you fear so much that you feel the need to hide behind such a name as Mr. Mind?
Take your time.

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 09:36:56 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: HELP -This Nerd is stalking me
Message:
and I'm afraid that if I give into his vicious attack, I'll start quoting Jesus Christ aka Jesus the Christ and spouting new age drivel. Maybe I should. Would it help me excuse myself for buying the Rawat drivel? No, it would just be a band-aid over a festering wound.

It's time to stop lying to yourself...

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 12:31:30 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: It was your stalking here that began the process
Message:
HELP -This Nerd is stalking me
Message:

and I'm afraid that if I give into his vicious attack, I'll start quoting Jesus Christ aka
Jesus the Christ and spouting new age drivel. Maybe I should. Would it help me
excuse myself for buying the Rawat drivel? No, it would just be a band-aid over a
festering wound.

It's time to stop lying to yourself... -Mr. Mind

***
Mind-y,

...with your big black cape of a name and your ominous innuendos.

You can't face your own fears that brought you here and inclined you to become (oooooooh!) MR. MIND.

Now all you can do is try to shoot the messenger. Typical, personalize your attack, forget the issue, and go for the ego.
How can I get mad at such a lame and used up trip and tripper?

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:45:37 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: 'everyone knows there are no such things as accid'
Message:
not trying to slam you...just very curious how we, and I do include myself, believe things, accept them as true facts, when at best all you can say is MAYBE this is true...from the amount of information/experience I have obtained. The post below to me from Creativejani is another example. What is said there may be true or ______.

As for the name Mr. Mind, it is not meant to scare anyone. I find that 2 of you looking at it this way very curious, indeed.

In other words, i know Nufin' for sure and mean no hostilities to anyone.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:24:25 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: 'everyone knows there are no such things as accid'
Message:
When you see a child enjoying life do you think they stop and reason? No. She is just having fun. I have fun and try hard no to ask, but just be in the state of being. I only know taht I don't know but I feel something and I'm tunning to it.

'Don't throw the baby with the bathwater.' ???

Body, mind and spirit must be healthy, for ages and ages we heard. What this people ment to say is real. When all is aligned, when we center ourself and accept our humanness we understand without words. We think with the universal mind of truth? I think so. have you cultivated the garden? LOL

SB, who is about to sproud. :)

Excuse my english, is my second language.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 21:07:30 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Your English is clear enough
Message:
Hola,

I like to read your posts. I wish I had taken my Spanish classes in school more seriously.

I share your disgust for Rawat and have only recently started to recover from my 25 year involvement with fat boy. I like my life now....maybe for the first time ever. I can tell from your posts that you are now starting to do quite well yourself.

Now, I'm off to make one final comment to Sandy, who all of a sudden is acting like the forum bully. Now, that's funny!!

Buenos Noches, Seniorita

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:52:55 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: gracias
Message:
Thanks for your comment, and yes,I'm doing very well and as you, I'm enjoying life like never before. In a way is good; is like being somewhat a teenager again but more informed so its funnier.

Yeah, the spanish forum is deserted. Good traffic but not many posters so if you learn the language (lol) come to visit us.

Take care,:)

SB

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:05:33 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: 'didn't mean to scare you?' Really? Come off it
Message:
since miragey's drummed into us that Mr Mind is the bogeyman, fate worse than death to be 'in your mind', told us all the stories about what a terrible thing the mind is, you chose that name for a reason. What other reason could there be than to scare people, try to rake up the old paranoia? And yes, there is a meaning to your choice, just you're not yet aware of it yourself. I used to think there wasn't any reason to things, but since I've discovered that there is, I'm starting to get in control of alot of my life that up till now was totally chaotic and I think that m was one attempt to find someone who could take control and tell me what do do, reassure me that I didn't have to actually do any hard work and THINK for myself.

You're either being dishonest or very naive.IMO.

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 04:26:44 (GMT)
From: freethepremies
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: 'didn't mean to scare you?' Really? Come off it
Message:
not so seriously...

Sorry for getting here. Is just a name. I used to call myself shifting here and others too. Is not a big deal really. I think. We don't know the state of mind of some 'newcomers', maybe they need our help.

sb

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:51:52 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: 'i know Nufin' for sure and mean no hostilities'
Message:
not trying to slam you...just very curious how we, and I do include myself, believe things, accept them as true facts, when at best all you can say is MAYBE this is true...from the amount of information/experience I have obtained. The post below to
me from Creativejani is another example. What is said there may be true or ______.

As for the name Mr. Mind, it is not meant to scare anyone. I find that 2 of you looking at it this way very curious, indeed. -Mr. Mind

* * *

Mr. M,

I think you are bullshitting both yourself and me when you say it is not meant to scare anyone. I think it is a wall to keep people away from the real you, who is afraid to come out. No slamming intended from here either, but I call 'em like I see 'em and I see pretty good lately.

Maybe you should let your curiosity teach you and guide you to the truth about this.

Sandy who has been there and done it

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:59:21 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: ''I did not tune into this ...why so surprised ...
Message:
Sounds like you're into a rverse form of thought control - there's no meaning to anything, it's all chance etc. I don't agree - meaning is everything - but we're in control of what we want to know about, and see/hear, not fatguru, jesus or anyone else.

I believe the bit of the brain we don't use (i.e most of it) is actually there for a purpose too, and links us to whatever we happen to be interested in finding out about at the time, directing our awareness appropriatley as we go through life. Whatever purpose we may have chosen for ourselves, that 'higher self'/super-computer directs us to the best way to achieve whatever we need. There's no point chucking out the baby with the bathwater - just cos m is a fraud with no super-powers or ability to bestow grace, doesn't mean we have to live the rest of our lives steeped in cynicism, wreathed in ciggie smoke and reeking of alcohol (or whatever!) Live life, be happy, trust your heart - I believe all that still. And what we believe can often come true, just not immpossible things like m becoming wise, or kind, or anything more than a spoilt, wek, abusive personality ruined by too much power too young. That's what I think right now, anyway. I'm not afraid of you, mr mind....

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:32:34 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: On this rainy Saturday morning (not OT)
Message:
It's interesting how once you would have probably credited M with the Grace to let you catch a particular show or something - if you were anything like me, that is> Now these synchronicities happen alot to me, and I realise they just do, anyway. He tried to take credit for everything good that happened to us, and the bad stuff was all mind and our fault for not being 'in Holy Name'. (That was DLM days, not Elan Vital business-consciousness). Whatever we want, we just have to ask - not miragey or anyone in particular, it just seems to be one of the laws of the universe that m takes advantage of. I think he's messed up because of his guru's status, he was only 8 after all, and probably believed all that stuff for quite a while, since all the Indian premies were well-trained and treated him like God.

Shame he hasn't grown up and learned to think for himself - he must have a split personality like many of the Nazis did, only some of them were at least kind to their own families. M has been a bastard to Marolyn - she's the one I feel sorry for, as much as any of the other premies he's hurt. Using the kids to frighten her into silence is pretty low...How low can you go, Mr Rawatt? I've got a feeling we're all gonna find ouit in the not too distant future.

Tchau Sandy, all the best.
Jani. (It's sunny here in London!)

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:14:16 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Miragey reminds me of Radio 3 ...
Message:
starts with bona fide classical music that soothes the soul, then gradually, without you noticing, starts playing tuneless and irritating modern stuff and finally you realise, with a start, that you've been listening to free-form jazz for half an hour and have a heac-ache. That's my experience with m over the last 27 years, in a musical simile-type form. Know what I mean, anyone? luckily, you can turn Radio 3 off easier than you can turn off the insidious messages you've picked up over half a lifetime listening to him tell you how wonderful he is.

If you haven't read the continuing J-M thread below re. application to revoke m's European visa, check it out! Very encouraging, heart-warming stuff from the French resistance movement. Looks like m might not turn up in Nottingham either!

cheers, going to do some gardening now I feel so much happier the shit is starting to hit the fan - duck, everyone!

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:06:22 (GMT)
From: warpmoldy
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Well at least Radio 3 isn't as bad as Classic FM
Message:
Love Moldy Warp the music graduate who likes Radio 3!!
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 11:01:38 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: warpmoldy
Subject: Well at least Radio 3 isn't as bad as Classic FM
Message:
Hmm, well I listen to classic FM when I don't have much time. I just think radio 3 lulls you into a false sense of security by playing some great classical chooons, then when you're not paying attention moves off into the realms of dissonant 'modern' stuff no-one really enjoys - but even worse, jazz is everywhere anyway, so I definitely want it banned from R3! I hate jazz, by and large, it upsets me like a buzzing swarm of wasps in my head. I'm a music graduate, buy the way, though I don't suppose I sound very musically educated. I just follow my heart, man...come to think of it, I sometimes listen to heart fm, too, (when i want to revisit my youth).

Tchau, warpmoldy, (are you related to moldy warp at all?)

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 12:53:00 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: 'modern' classic, freejazz and abstract art (ot)
Message:
I always wonder about the established 'creative products' of the era 40-70. Who ordered them anyway? I don't think there has ever been a time where established 'art' was so far removed from 'the people'
(I don't hate all abstract art)
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 13:12:34 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: more 'modern' classic, freejazz ...(OT)
Message:
Yes, I agree. It's not what most people need or want - it's all intetllectualised attempts to establish a career profile in a small world of wealthy posers and such like shallow types. It's down to money again - who can afford to buy works of art?* Used to be the province of the aristocracy but at least the benefactors of the past enabled us to have Mozart, Bach and so on to enjoy now. As far as music goes, i suspect that to get commissions you have to be able to look good on paper, advancing the artform or something. John Taverner is anexception, because he has a real inspiration and (spiritual) belief to express. I must listen to some more of his work, I only heard the bit he wrote for Princess Di's funeral.
I like abstract art, actually, more than I like 'abstract' (or rather dissonant) music - I think there's harmony and dissonance, whatever medium you're talking about, and I like harmony. Yeah, that's it - my view on life generally!
(*I have an abstract by John Keane, as it happens, probably worth something now, I couldn't really afford it 14 years ago but the gallery let me pay it off over two years!)

Hey, nice to talk to you,

Tchau, Bob!

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:17:42 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: we don't have to duck. We WON!
Message:
I get it. Sad isn't? Make yourself strong. Don't turn back. I feel so much love in me and never felt it so strong. lardy is a screwy little master of deception. The truth is the truth. Don't go off now. Be vigilant: The subconcious mind is full of BS. Clean it putting new fresh, truthful ideas when they come. It has helped me a lot.

Know I'm concern and think about you, and hope the best. Hang around here but not too much: Stop to smell the 'other' roses. hahahaha Be good to yourself.

your universal sister,

sb

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:21:08 (GMT)
From: banana bai
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My recommendation to Maharaji
Message:
It's all gotten out of hand. EV and all the little branches of premie organization are FUCKED. As someone who still, among all this carnage, believes you really have something to offer that is real, I recommend this:

-- That you dismantle all organizational activity of Elan Vital except for what is needed, bare bones, for fueling and maintenance of your air vehicles and setting up of events where you can speak to people in person.

-- Funnel monies previously going to other activities into nothing but satellite events, adding cable events and whatever radio and television media you can get.

-- Take a vacation. Take off a whole year or more if you need it. Sometimes one can't see the forest for the trees.

-- Know that there are many who always have and always will love you. Don't feel like you're not allowed to make mistakes. You have made plenty of mistakes, but that's allowed. The biggest mistake would be not to admit them and let the chips fall where they may.

-- P.S. (And no I'm not kidding) I would love to see you in person in your Krishna outfit again!!

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 15:10:35 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: I don't like being taken for a sucker
Message:
though I might be one.

Who are and what is it that you want?

This I like to know.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 22:06:23 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: I 'd love to see rawat wobbling down ...
Message:
..Wall St. in his Krishna kit myself , past the offices of his lawyers , surrounded by blissful devotees throwing roses , & proclaiming Himself to be greater than God......dream on , we're in the 21st C now .

Kali Yuga is getting more intense by the day , your average satguru has already thrown in the towel , but not our boy .

He's smarter than that ; fuck , we're talking the master of disguise here , a guy who can brazenly say that he never inhaled with the best of them , & yet in some mysterious way manages to support his important work without so much as lifting a shovel.

Truly God is Great : ya gotta believe that as it's clear you do , & I'm with you all the way .

ps: I'm partial to fried Mexican mushroooms with breakfast too .

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 15:15:02 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: I 'd love to see rawat wobbling down ...
Message:
I see that you're smelling something too. Mmmm, I wonder what it is?

Only time will tell.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 21:09:19 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: banana bye Christian Star
Subject: Christian Star, why the banana now? yer ali bai
Message:
Your new adoption of 'banana' might tend to create some persona confusions here, especially given your present status/outlook r.e. m.

Q: Is it like a friendly fan thing, cooptation or covert operation?

Can't you think of something more original, like 'blueberry bai', or if blonde then 'strawberry bai' - or better yet 'ali bai' or alib[a]i? bai-n-bye. goo-bai. baibye. baigones. lulla bai.

Incidentally, I have been posting since last year using 'suchabanana' [aka such], a name I have used as a moniker since the late 1970s.

'banana' is now sacrament of the awakened fool who has exited cult and found one's own 2 legs to stand on - w/o the slippery crutch of a greedy guru [aka master] as an actual obstacle to further enlightenment, understanding, intelligence, and personal growth.

Premies, awake from the dream. Slavery is over. Throw away your guru crutches and shackles - you can stand and walk on your own two feet. If you like to meditate, fine. If not, not. Your individual experience comes from within you, not from him - which would be a delusion/illusion. The techniques are available elsewhere free - without the devotion strings, reinforced guru concepts/dependency, cultspeak, cult-think, and the secrecy that have been abused to empower the materialist Rawat clan. He said he doesn't hear the prayers of his devotees, anyway -so, don't waste your time. This site lays out the mega money trail [the part that hasn't disappeared], m's actions in the hit-and-run, the mishandling of the Jagdeo situation, m's instructions to Donner r.e. aiding top cult criminal fugitives to get out of the country, the longterm misuse of funds, the Dettmers revelations, the deceptions, the double-life and double standards, the fabled m. and EVI spin doctoring, etc. A 'master' who is sinking in the ocean of maya. Remember: 'No cheat, no deceit.'

So, save your money for your families or a reputable charity. Save your devotion for the universal energy within that allows each of us to exist and be who we are. You want inspiration? There are plenty of books, people here, mountains, beaches, forests, music, friends. No need whatsoever for a slippery crutch, personality cult worship, or wretched Big Brother indoctrination.

Know thyself, for in the absence of truth there is no ali bai. You have your own lulla bai of existence that is independent of the encrusted guru mirage. Throw away the false crutch of selfstyled master, master-slave relationship and concepts, the guru bhakti shackles, the cult pictures and boring vids, and walk - trusting in yourself on your own path in the light of discovery and growth.

Peace and lentils,

- swami suchabanana

PS lentils are like the purple hearts given to survivor-veterans

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:00:39 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: My recommendation to Maharaji
Message:
bb, I think the appropriate forum for your suggestions would be to write m personally (and wait forever for a response). I don't think anyone here appreciates your recommendations other than m taking a year off, and of course if would be better if he just took off, period. When you write: Don't feel like you're not allowed to make mistakes. You have made plenty of mistakes, but that's allowed. The biggest mistake would be not to admit them and let the chips fall where they may. First of all, it's my life that m made mistakes with and I'm sorry but it's not okay. Not when he set himself up as the one to trust and surrender the reins of my life to. It's far too late in the game now for maha to admit he has led people astray - the revisionist engine is currently in overdrive. He has admitted anyway to making mistakes - I think he calls that evolution . . but he hasn't taken personal responsibility for it. Most of us here have been around long enough to recognize the bhakti circus for what it is: a manipulative ploy trotted out whenever fortunes are waning so he can carry on his charade and lifestyle with impunity. Look, it's one thing to show a human being that there is beauty inside and entirely another to attempt to control the individual and demand devotion and obedience. I think I've wasted enough years of my life not to know the difference.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:39:21 (GMT)
From: banana bai
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: My recommendation to Maharaji
Message:
Well, I salute your right to feel that way and say it.

I haven't yet given up hope, but then maybe it's me that needs to take the vacation.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:40:23 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: banana, he should split.....
Message:
Hey banana-

I agree that the best thing for m to do would be to take a year off...the premies too...however, I think most of them would drift off and start to use their critical, reasoning faculties, and discover that their life without M/K was just fine...in fact, probably better than with m/k...(i know you don't agree)

But, if he put ANY money/energy into any sort of public media other that his current infomercial presentations, it would greatly increase his chances of being reported on, and I don't think that is something he wants...in fact I think he is deathly afraid of any media scrutiny, and his 30th anniversary would be a perfect time for a follow-up story for some of the media who covered him when he came here in the early 1970's...

Not looking too good for the guru these days...I think his strategy is to

1)shore up the devotee base (devotion back in..you may even get your request for the krishna halloween costume...maybe even crown, if donations slip too far)
2) batten down the hatches, keep up a brave front with propagation, even if it goes nowhere...(premies are on the front line, risking major public embarrassment-they are afraid to look at this stuff, but will have to ,if any aspirants come around and start asking questions, but what the hell, it's just premies..)
3)fatten up the bank account
4)put the women and children first, kind of like saddam does(saddam puts them in front of areas to be bombed, M puts wife and kids out front in infomercials...tough to criticize them)
5)prepare to weather the storm, and work on any and all alibis, including partial retirement...

6)my big question still is: who would be your first choice for the next master?

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:50:25 (GMT)
From: banana bai
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: banana, he should split.....
Message:
Haha, thanks for making me laugh, la-ex (by your question as to who would be my choice for next master). It really tickles my funny bone. I have no idea who would be a good next master, but I do hope it will be someone who will not insulate him or herself from what is really going on, and someone who can carry on what Maharaji has been teaching by also showing a good example in his or her own life and actually responding to questions -- hard questions -- like those asked by people on this website. Someone with guts. Someone with balls. Someone who will forever dispel the old concepts of things like 'agya' and the idea that a follower of this path doesn't have to be responsible for his or her own actions. Someone who will also be willing to take stands on important sociopolitical issues. Someone who is willing to take questions out of a crowd and answer them -- really answer them, and not talk like a politician, answering questions that were not asked and leaving the questions asked unanswered. Someone who won't allow money to be charged for any of his or her events.

bb

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:20:50 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: bb-I guess the next master won't be like M.nt.
Message:
nn
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 14:18:42 (GMT)
From: banana bai
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Haha I guess not
Message:
But now tell me please why you asked that question. Do you have someone in mind that you would like to see be the next Guru, or what?
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 21:57:41 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: BanBai,heres why I want your pick for next satguru
Message:
First of all, who would be my next pick?
Simple.
No one.
Or, all of us.
Or someone like you described.
Or, if I had to pick one real person, I'd pick the dalai lama...so there,bb...

Either way, the best thing would be for m to pull a krishnamurti, and throw off all 'mastership',tell the premies to get a life,do some honest work instead of flying all over the world to promote a dysfunctional guru worship game with himself on center stage,get a life himself, tell the truth, apologize and work with the people he has deceived, learn some spiritual lessons about honesty and humility and treating your neighbor as your brother, living simply....(you know the routine, all of those old fashioned spiritual 'concepts')


The reason I ask premies who their pick for the next master is because I love to hear their answers...it tells me so much about their belief system with m.

Most premies I know have built m into such a supernatural godlike myth(of course, although he bemoans the fact, he has always been there fanning the flames) that it is impossible for them to really see him clearly, or to judge his actions objectively.(plus, we should not judge the master, because he doesn't judge us, as he has told us many times)

When someone is asked who their next pick for master would be, they have to cull through a mental list of very ordinary human beings. None of them probably seem suitable to fill his shoes.
This tells me something: m is not who you think he is.

Think about it another way: If you knew m as a premie in some community(not the master), maybe some rich PAM...an arrogant,spoiled, self centered man who routinely cheated on his wife and had a serious problem with telling the truth and staying sober....well, would you pick HIM as your choice for the next satguru?

See what I mean?
No one, especially not m, fits the mythological status that you have given him.

Would you feel comfortable with Daya as the next master?
Jagdeo?
Dave smith?
Marolyn?
Glen Whittaker?
Joan Apter?
Amar?
Raja ji?

It's hard to see anyone fitting the bill, because you know they are just human, very human.
Isn't it time for m to step off the stage/throne and get real with us?
He enjoys his power with the premies, but it's also driving him to drink,and not good for anyone else.

So, Ms. Banana Bai, since I have given you my pick, how about yours?
I know your slippery, but honesty is always a-peel-ing to me.

La-ex

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 22:33:28 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: GOOD POST! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:49:18 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: banana
Subject: Seeing someone you know is responsible for the..
Message:
suicides and breakdown of many of his closest followers dress up in the krishna garb is just sick. He'd just look disgusting and past it - all that drinking and durgs and sex don't do alot for the body, best to hide it under expensive tailored suits so no-one sees how far he's descended into materialistic hell. IMHO.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:58:38 (GMT)
From: banana bai
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Seeing someone you know is responsible for the..
Message:
His weight is a non-issue for me. If he were a prospective lover, then it would be an issue because I only go for thin guys. But I don't care if he weighs 500 lbs. One of my most beautiful and 'cosmic' experiences during ashram days was at a program where he was wearing that outfit -- and I guess that's the only time I ever saw him in it, in person. But perhaps the past is the past and can never be again.

And no, I don't hold him responsible for any suicides. I do hold him responsible for a number of people staying alive who would have otherwise committed suicide. I believe that people are responsible for their own actions -- even neurotic and psychotic people. I don't believe in laying the blame on someone else for something I have done; likewise, I don't blame Maharaji for what others have done. However, that said, that doesn't mean I condone Maharaji's having insulated himself from almost everyone, nor does it mean I condone every action he has ever made (most of which I am not even aware).

When I was 'gone' from Maharaji for so many years and came back and heard him speak, that was the proof to me that he really has something right. I do not believe it would be possible for someone to speak in such an inspiring and helpful manner at events, month after month and year after year, without his having some true talent/Grace to help much of humanity. But all the other stuff, yes, I have problems with it.

That's why I have to take a vacation.

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 10:52:27 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: Take a vacation from your mind, which is ...
Message:
attributing m with qualities he is pretending to have (he'd approve of that, wouldn't he? mind's such a tricky thing, you just can't trust it...)I believe HITLER was a pretty charismatic speaker too, but I suppose he's not responsible for any deaths either, is he? I mean, the people who carried out his orders chose to, didn't they, and it's all their fault. Yes, I see it now. Thanks for clarifying that issue for me, as long as you had some beautiful experiences you can continue to insulate yourself from reality and basically believe the stuff m tells you, even though you don't know him at all, and disbelieve all the people who post their stories here. It's your choice of course, make the most of it before the court cases start rolling in...

It's actually extremely easy for m to say the inspiring (sometimes!) things he says. He'd been listening to his father do it since he ws a baby, it's probably genetically programmed in, and he basically gives a performance, like many other entertainers do. They're very different when they're offstage too, I know cos I'm one from time to time. You switch into another gear, even another personality, and as long as you put yourself into it, evveryone's convinced - you project energy and build up a great atmosphere. It's what a teacher/master does when they're not being observed/adored by their 'students' that is the test of whether that person is worth trusting and learning from or not. I choose to believe the many people who've seen m up close and their stories all tally and paint a picture of a truly unstable, weak and abusive personality.

Have a nice holiday. :)

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 04:34:35 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: shut the fu...up!! You offended me
Message:
Would you like me to tell you the kind of experiences I had about the word SURRENDER?? And darshan, and my mother getting sick about me leaving ny country to follow the living lord, etc, etc, etc, etc....YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO GIVE YOUR OPINION BUT YOUR STICK TOUCHED MY SIDE!!

WHAT DO YOU know, BIG MOUTH!?

YOU ARE AN ASS. fUCK OFF!!

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:58:27 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: Oh he's talented, alright
Message:
He's an accomplished con man who's been at it since childhood.

Any 'good' this creep has done is purely coincidental to his guru business and the bottom line--$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

You have some screwy ideas about responsibility, too. The dumbest one is this idea that Fatass saved some premies from suicide while not being responsible for the ones who did die. You can't have it both ways, dear.

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 04:36:46 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: he/she is such a thinker. Yuck!
Message:
It turns my stomach. I need to meditate now. Yawnnn...
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:52:53 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: yeap NT
Message:
what a, ignorant asshole!
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 13:46:37 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Musings From The North
Message:
Life has been very interesting lately but also very disappointing.

There's a transit strike here in Vancouver so it's hard to get around. I was ripped off a few days ago for a large sum of money so my usually dire financial situation is a lot worse than usual.

As far as my thoughts on maharaji are concerned, I've already expressed more than enough of those here over the last eight months. My main thought right now is that he's anachronistic if he ever wasn't.

All The Best

Steve

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 13:06:34 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Joined the 'club'
Message:
It sucks sometimes, doesn't and when it happens, when we get ripped off, you feel like: Not again...

I have been ripped off many times and I understand the 'nice' feeling. I'm in red for years now. Broke to the maximum.

I sent you mail. No need to respond, tell me here. Are doing ok?

I was diagnosed as bipolar and got myself a really bood book, called Prescription for Nutritional Healing, Bt a Dr named Bach.
According to natural medicine, depression is called by a lack of essential minerals and essential aminoacids. I'm doing pretty well now taht I addressed those deficiencies. How are you dealing with yours?

Love, SB

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:36:15 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: sb
Subject: Joined the 'club'
Message:
Have not received any mail from you lately but would enjoy hearing from you any time.

Steve

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 12:10:45 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: It's not the feets, stupid..it's the toenails !!
Message:
`The toenails of the Master's feet are lustrous and concentrating on them opens up one's inner vision.

When the nails of the Master's holy feet begin to shine within the devotee's heart, he achieves divine insight, and there no more darkness for him. However, only an extremely fortunate devotee achieves such a vision, and he then begins to understand all facets of the Lord, both hidden and manifested.'

Of course, why didn't I realize that. As the saying goes, ''When HE speaks darkness flies away''.

Now, well into my middle aged years, By HIS Grace, I now know, I must become a podiatrist....and then, by HIS grace.........

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 12:22:26 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: i can think of some other nails that would give
Message:
far greater illumination to comtemplate.
.
.
.
.
.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 12:37:51 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: The Practical solution
Message:
the hell with contemplation...I'm talking consumption
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 09:38:55 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rawat's scared to death. Doesn't show up in Paris!
Message:
Looks like the Lord's lost some of his powers. He didn't show up today, doesn't intend to, and no indication he'll be here tomorrow !!
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 09:11:39 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I still say he was sleeping off a drunk! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 06:41:30 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Strange Coincidence
Message:
Strange Coincidence.
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 09:32:17 (GMT)
From: jim boeger
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Strange Coincidence
Message:
you're an imbecile
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 11:28:41 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Sorry, Wrong Link
Message:
Sorry, wrong link.
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 03:15:54 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Can't stand up to scrutiny?
Message:
This cowardly action of his shows that he is not living up to the nonsense he said during the 'Peace Bomb satsang'.

Is Rawat afraid of some criticism? Was he too embarrassed to show up?

That doesn't sound like a 'Master'.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:51:40 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Yahoo! Guru on the run! (nt)
Message:
;lkj
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:12:04 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Bravo! Bravo!
Message:
Well J-M, you all kept Captain Rawat from raking in a lot of francs this weekend. Great work. He and EV must be very worried if he wouldn't even show up.

So there is a campaign to try to revoke his visa to travel within the entire EU? Could this affect his attendance at the other scheduled European events, like next week in Barcelona? Are EU officials actually looking into taking this action?

Is there any official governmental inquiry going on in France about EV and Captain Rawat at which he could be legally ordered to appear? If so, that might be an incentive to avoid travelling within the EU so that he does not get served with legal process. Just thinking out loud here.

The cult's coffers are getting more depleted by the day. Did you see Anth's post where UK EV doesn't have money to send out any mailings?

Marianne

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:13:31 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: epton@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Good News!
Message:
Goes to show me the power of individual effort. Thanks for your integrity and strength towards contributing to this result. This just might have a boomerang effect to sound the alarm bells around the world - at least the west, where the moolah is. J-M, I also appreciate the information you've taken the trouble to assemble which is posted here on the forum.
Gary
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 07:43:16 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Good News!/Agree and Thanks J-M
Message:
This action in France is the most significant to date. I only wish I could read French. I wish similar effective actions might take place in the other money countries.

Thanks again !

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:38:03 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: J-M, more information s'il vous plâit
Message:
Please, more info on what is going on for those of us not familiar with the details. Reading through the other threads below, I assume you are saying that M has not arrived in Paris for a scheduled 2 day program in nearby Versailles because of adverse publicity. Qui? Has the program, in fact been cancelled? If so what is EV France telling everyone? More details - enquiring minds want to know.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:45:41 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Richard and J-M
Subject: J-M, more information please!!!!
Message:
Yeah, all the details will inspire us over in England and add fuel to the fire...burn, baby, burn!
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:45:18 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: No information from Elan Vital
Message:
.

Versailles – France : May 26 – 27

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:58:57 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I'm not surprised....
Message:
with all that has been going on in France lately. Looks like he has tucked his tail up his ass and run. That is good to know, since the Worcester area media outlets and Boston media have been showered with snippets of the Combat article, Penthouse article and Rolling Stone article. I hope he does'nt cancel this event, the news media will be waiting.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 13:37:12 (GMT)
From: banana bai
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rawat's scared to death. Doesn't show up in Paris!
Message:
What is he afraid of?
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:16:09 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: What's he afraid of?...THE TRUTH, for starters..nt
Message:
ww
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 13:10:32 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Now this is closure!
Message:
It is great to be part of the forum and seeing individual ex-premies having effect in halting rawat's attempts. It gives closure and returns empowerment to us, the owners!
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 12:19:34 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Praise the (real) Lord! nt.
Message:
Now how about Nottingham? Surely our so-called 'gutter' press can get a good story out of this! I'm off to write another letter...

Jean-Michel, you're an inspiration!

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:33:26 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Praise the (real) Lord! nt.
Message:
there is no lord. We are all teachers and students in life and the universal mind planned it like that? kissing feet. Yuck!
We have so much brainwashing in us. Put all aside for now and cultivate yourself. Try to understand yourself not this Lord and taht one. wh knows who Jesus was? I remeber reading somewhere tah tJesus was for 17 years in india. Just the fact taht he asked his disciples to leave everything tells me taht the guy maybe ment good but was indoctrinated to be followed. Why leave our families and cause them pain.Pain is real and nobody has the right to disregard other's pain. Lard did taht, asked us to laugh at pain. What a bozo! Inside of you are all the tools you need. Trust me, I have humbly accept it that. I need no crutches.
I keep my ears and eyes open and everyday I learned something new to be more like I'm supposse to be: A human being. I sound like a mother, but that is me. I don't love just myself but all that lives.

There are true teachers who share their wisdom for free. I do. I share in my private life showing people how beautiful their essence is. I do it because they ask and because I can. Screw him.

don't get into another cult now C.

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 11:40:18 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Just an expression! I now have a picture of my..
Message:
adorable little dog, Freddie, who died two months ago, and my family. That's it, honest! No, I don't believe there is a lord, in human form - but many teachers, as you say. (Hey, who's that descending from the clouds in glory outside? Must just go and have a peek...!)

Don't worry sb, I'm well-warned now.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 12:06:38 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Allons, enfants de la patrie, le jour de gloire
Message:
est arrivé!
Contre-nous de la tyrannie...
..[forgot the lyric]...
Aux armes! Citoyens!
Formez
vos battaillons!
Marchons! Marchons!
Qu'on sang impugne
abbreve nos [??]
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 01:39:58 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dettmers post from below re Abi and Jodie
Message:
I am bringing this post from Michael Dettmers up here, because it's very clear and worth reading:

Dear Jodie,

Thanks for speaking out. If any situation reflects the tunnel vision that is produced by “cult-think,” this is it. Cult-think produces an “us against the world” mentality. This myopia blinds cult members and their leaders alike from recognizing legitimate concerns and reasonable questions posed by those inside and outside of the cult. Every accusation, however grounded, is viewed as an attack and a threat by a hostile world bent on their destruction. Nothing epitomizes this condition more than the way Maharaji and Élan Vital have so far mishandled the Jagdeo matter. Not only is their behavior morally and ethically reprehensible but also, from a public relations point of view, their response to date has been incredibly stupid. Whatever they may ultimately do about this situation, it is too late to undo to public relations fiasco they have brought upon themselves. I can’t imagine anyone who knows the facts becoming involved with such a disreputable leader and his organization.

Their pathetic attempt to deflect responsibility by invoking the supposed legal separation between Maharaji and Élan Vital is ludicrous. Do they think we are idiots? They are simply demonstrating how fearful and out of touch with reality they are. Maharaji always reserved the right to declare who is and is not an instructor for himself, and there are plenty of people who can testify to that fact. Would they have us believe that Jagdeo was traveling around the world on his own behalf with his own money? Who made him a mahatma? Whose knowledge was he supposed to be spreading? What was the context that enabled him to be in contact with so many children? Why did you and other parents feel it was safe and beneficial for your children to be left alone with Maharaji’s mahatmas? Who paid for his food, travel and support? And who sponsored him and secured his visas?

Although Élan Vital claims to have conducted a thorough investigation, it appears, until recently at least, that they never interviewed any of Jagdeo’s victims. And they left it up to Deepak Raj Bhandari, the national organizer in India, to question Jagdeo. Clearly, Maharaji should have interviewed Jagdeo. Why would Jagdeo admit his crimes to an Élan Vital official he hardly even knows? Maharaji, on the other hand, was the person he proclaimed as his lord and master. I doubt that he would have denied his guilt if he were personally confronted with the evidence by Maharaji. Yet, by not interviewing Jagdeo, Maharaji departed from his normal practice of personally disciplining mahatmas who committed lesser, but nonetheless serious, offences.

I don’t believe, however, the suggestion by some that Maharaji did not confront Jagdeo because he was afraid of him, or that he had something on Maharaji. There were many mahatmas from whom Maharaji hid his x-rated lifestyle, including Jagdeo. He did so, not because he was afraid of them, but simply because he was not comfortable enough to allow them to witness behavior that was so at odds with what he preached. I am convinced that the reason Maharaji did not interview Jagdeo is because, given the nature of the accusations against him, he was advised by his lawyers to distance himself from his former agent.

A real Master, if such a one exists, must be a warrior when standing up for the truth. When it really counts, however, Maharaji has shown that he is a coward. I characterized him as such when he failed to respond to Susan’s efforts to have him address this situation last July, and it appears that nothing fundamentally has changed since then. He continues to demonstrate that he is more interested in protecting his “ass”ets than he is in doing what is right.

In the end, his efforts to avoid any responsibility in this matter will fail. He continues to lose the love and respect of so many people who were once inspired to help him further his mission. People of conscience will not let go of this issue until he publicly apologizes for the crimes Jagdeo committed while in his service, until he seeks out and compensates all of Jagdeo’s victims, and until he does whatever is necessary to bring Jagdeo to justice.

Michael

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:23:16 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: FA /JM-should this be included in jagdeo sectionnt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 13:45:36 (GMT)
From: banana bai
Email: starflock@hotmail.com
To: Disculta
Subject: Dettmers post from below re Abi and Jodie
Message:
Everything Michael says here sounds absolutely reasonable and correct to me. However, there is some discrepancy here as to points of fact.

I wonder: was Terry Lingling telling the truth on a conference call last year that Maharaji only just learned about 'an instructor's illegal activities' a month before said conference call -- due to e-mail that (finally!) got through to him?

I wonder. Has Maharaji really become so insulated that only those in some 'inner circle' have control over what information Maharaji receives or does not receive?

I have come to believe this. I hear it happens with people like the President of the U.S. too -- that those near him ending up controlling what he learns and does not learn. With Maharaji I find this even more plausible.

I wonder if Michael would find it plausible that 'devoted premies' steadfastly avoided telling Maharaji about Jagdeo and other atrocities?

I still tend to think so...

bb

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 00:02:54 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: The Lotus floats undisturbed on a lake of ..
Message:

....shit.

I agree with your speculations ;rawat lives in a world of gold plated tacky bullshit , ruled by himself .

Surrounded by yes men , who would have the gall to disturb his blissful serenity ?

However he does know about the Jagdeo thing finally , he did speak to the victim's father . With what result ?

Fuck You Whitey , I'm the satguru .

The buck stops with him .

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 13:00:18 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Serenity is
Message:
Surrounded by yes men, who would have the gall to disturb his blissful serenity? -Bin Liner

***

OH yeah,

To me, serenity is being able to deal masterfully with anything and everything that life deals while remaining in a state of transcendant calm. Serenity is not being able to stay in a state of peace while insulated from life and human suffering. Anybody can do that.

If Maharaji could have remained in 'that experience' and dealt masterfully with the feelings and emotions of those like Susan and Abi, and if the love from his heart got everyone totally really and truly 'blissed out' (and there is such a genuine experience, not to be confused with the cliche) by his words of comfort and his humanity, then I would credit him with being serene.

I know you were being tongue in cheek...
Sandy

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:40:47 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: To banana bai
Message:
So banana bai,

Run this through your blender and see if it goes with banana:

Maharaji put himself above everyone. He said 'there are two types of people, there's Maharaji and then there is everybody else.' He claimed to be the LORD. Let that sink in a bit...

The LORD is OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESENT. Don't you think such a being has the power to look into the heart of a man He is considering sending around the world to represent Him?? Is the OMNI thing just a bunch of smoke and mirrors or what as you see it. If he can't save a child from harm who is being hurt by one of his own 'hands and feet' (he said his devoted premies were his 'hands and feet', yeah, except when they make a mistake, then he doesn't know about it.) He said a good father doesn't let his child crawl near a fire enough to get burned, and to Maharaji, both the perpetrator and the vicitm were his 'children' and he needed to be more aware of both.

If his closest people kept such an ugly truth from him about the injuries being done to children by one of his representatives, then what does that say about the mood he created around himself and what his directions were to them concerning the passage of information within their network? If he told them to always tell him the truth about whatever the issue was, to not be afraid of him for fear of hell and rotting veggies, if he told them to be especially conscious and caring for the children and other defenseless premies as they travelled to communities, then that's what would have happened. That's the kind of stuff that should be shared in those meetings and trainings, how to deal with the people and deal with real life stuff and keep it real.

This is not a president we are supposedly talking about here. This is someone who claims to be carrying alot more juice than that.

I envision a program where Maharaji says how sorry he is for any and all premies who ever got hurt by anything or anyone having anything to do with him, EV/DLM, mahatmas, anything. I envision him personally making his apologies to all the children who were abused in a room so full of love and emotion coming from all the half-awake, entranced and entrenched premies who suddenly open their eyes and see their teacher being more human than they have ever seen him before. Probably not, but it was a nice thought...

I thought the caste system went out and Maharaji was against it. He allowed the creation of a new one in his premie population and that has allowed some people to be treated more (or less) equally than others.

banana bo-bana, digest and reply at will,

Sandy

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:06:02 (GMT)
From: banana bai
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: To banana bai
Message:
First of all, I just can't even respond to the God and Lord stuff. That just isn't and has not been my expectations of him. There are as many concepts about what and who God is as there are individuals, and it's probably the most unarguable and conflict-full argument that no one ever wins -- kind of like the abortion issue. I am assertively pro-Choice, but the last thing I want to do is argue about it with those who don't see it the same way I do. What you expect of 'God' and what I expect of 'God' is not a conversation I even want to enter.

I like the program you envision. I would like to see that happen too. It could happen.

bb

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 13:52:27 (GMT)
From: banana bai
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Insulation
Message:
I mean, after all, we have seen proof of George Bush Sr.'s insulation. Remember when it came out in the news how he went to a grocery store and asked the clerk what that thing was that she was scanning the codes with? He had never seen one before. It's hard to conceive of it, but this man had not walked into a regular store for many years. That's the only way he didn't know that. Sure, he's privy to all the CIA secrets (at least of his time), but has no concept of what's going on in the 'real world' because he simply hasn't visited 'the rest of us' often enough!

'Let them eat cake.' -- Past Queen of England (I can't remember which one!)

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:23:00 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: George Bush vs the Superior Power in Person
Message:
banana bai,

Get it straight. He said he was God. God has His eye on the fucking sparrow, not a leaf falls, get it? We were told this stuff and we were told to believe it about Maharaji.

Quit beating around the bush.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:11:25 (GMT)
From: banana bai
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy
Message:
I never heard Maharaji say he was God, and if he did I'll bet it was a very long time ago before he even understood the differences in the nuances of the different cultures and languages.

I heard about a question and answer session in the eighties where someone said to Maharaji, 'You already know what I'm going through.' And Maharaji stopped the person from continuing in order to say, 'No, I don't know what you are going through. I'm not God.'

Yes, he has said a lot of different things in the past. I don't really want to worry about all the ancient history. What is happening today is about all I can handle.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 21:41:07 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: Just read Arti lyrics which are still sung to him.
Message:
It's not ancient history, Banana bai. It's still going on. When I received Knowledge, they gave me a special printed copy of his peace bomb satsang and one entitled you are disciples now. There is no mistaking the attempted impression of personal Godhood to get utter and complete obedience and faith. Now it's all past history??? Not so fast...

That's like going out with a woman and falling in love with her and marrying her and then on the wedding night, she unscrews a leg and takes out an eye and her teeth, and removes her prosthetic ass and chest areas, shows you the scars of her sex change operation, and reminds you that you married her for love, not for her body. Yeah, you did, but you also believed the advertisements and trusted them.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:58:22 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: George Bush vs the Superior Power in Person
Message:
Hi Sandy,

We're sweltering here in Portugal so as Selene said try to appreciate that cooling rain.

I'm enjoying reading your posts . I usually do , even if I don't see things exactly as you do.

This last post reminds me very much of someone we know well who is on holiday! Read it again and see if you could ever have imagined him saying those very words to you? !!!!

Isn't life strange? Glad to see you're not afraid of change for as someone we also know very well said ' Change is the order of the day.. there's no certainty but uncertainty...'

Best wishes ,
Hal

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:12:29 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: George Bush vs the Superior Power in Person
Message:
Sandy wrote:
banana bai,

Get it straight. He said he was God. God has His eye on the fucking sparrow, not a leaf
falls, get it? We were told this stuff and we were told to believe it about Maharaji.

Quit beating around the bush.

Sandy

Hal responded:
Hi Sandy,

We're sweltering here in Portugal so as Selene said try to appreciate that cooling rain.

I'm enjoying reading your posts . I usually do , even if I don't see things exactly as you
do.

This last post reminds me very much of someone we know well who is on holiday!
Read it again and see if you could ever have imagined him saying those very words to
you? !!!!

Isn't life strange? Glad to see you're not afraid of change for as someone we also know
very well said ' Change is the order of the day.. there's no certainty but uncertainty...'

Best wishes ,
Hal

***

Hi Hal,

From central New Jersey, sweltering with Selene in Portugal sounds pretty exotic...no offense, Selene. The rain will come and the rain will go, but Selene sweltering in Portugal, that is forever....

I will not call someone an idiot who does not get it. I will be patient and remember all the layers that I had to go through and have compassion. Directness and speaking plainly was not invented here. Harry Truman did it 60 years ago, ya know.

I can think of a few things you guys can do until the rain comes if you need any suggestions.

Sandy the imaginative lover of life and all it holds

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:00:21 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: Eating cake - it was Marie Antoinette not a ..
Message:
queen of England who said that. Not long before she was beheaded in the French Revolution, I believe. Her total insensitivity to the starving French people of the time is strangely reminiscent of M's attitude to his premies - doncha think? And if he is someone a bit special, a bit more than just a president (he's always been pretty scathing about politicians, maybe because he knows he shares all their faults)if he deserves anyone's love or respect, he would lead by example and show those closest to him about honesty and responsibility and such things. As pointed out earlier, he should 'know' these things and be a caring and vigilant dad to all his trusting little children. After all, it's only human to care for kids, isn't it?
But he knew and did nothing. Great example, great master (not).
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:48:45 (GMT)
From: King Lous XVI
Email: None
To: Banana Cake
Subject: Marie Antoinette not a Queen of England
Message:
check this: Having Your Cake and Eating It Too
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 11:08:17 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: King Lous XVI
Subject: Not Marie Antoinette ! (not a Queen of England)
Message:
Hey, thanks for that, Your Majesty! Not only wasn't it Marie-Antoinette, but it wasn't cake either! I guess misinformation is pretty rife wherever you look. Makes you wonder what and WHO you can believe, doesn't it?
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 03:49:46 (GMT)
From: QUESTIONER
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Dettmers post from below re Abi and Jodie
Message:
Anyone who knows the DLM of the 70's knows that Maharaji was surrounded by layers of intermediaries.
Any comment or complaints from an average Joe would wind its way through the organization before ending up, if it was persistent, knocking at the door of the inner santum.
And there guarding their turf like rottweilers was Bob Mishler and his cronies and then Michael Dettmers and his.
What I would like to know is what did Michael hear or do about Jagdeo?
If Michael didn't hear anything, its unlikely that Maharaji did.
If Michael did hear something, what did he do?
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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 14:20:15 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: QUESTIONER
Subject: Dettmers post from below re Abi and Jodie
Message:
Dear Elan Vital monitor,

Do you really think that Guru Charanand is an 'average Joe' within your oganisation? I would have thought Guru Charanand would have a direct line to his old friend Guru Maharaji.

You are transparent.

Abi

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 14:52:16 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Didnt Charanand receive Knowledge from Shri Hans?
Message:
And wasn't he given the responsibility to watch Maharaji's back by same?

This 'family of love' that we bought into turned out to be am elite new age caste system based on the same old things, money, power and position.

All the people in the world who still swear by Maharaji and Knowledge do not excuse, cancel or minimize what happened to you and others. This is not a numbers game or a popularity contest, not a game of any sort. Premies have said to me that there are not enough people here on this site to fill one row at one of his gatherings, as if that really means a thing in the eye of God. Yes, the road is straight and the gate is extremely narrow to the alter of Truth, and few there be who find it, or are willing to give up what it takes to make it there. You are a brave person and I think that is godly.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 11:24:18 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: QUESTIONER
Subject: You're not asking the right questions...
Message:
You see what you allow yourself to see. Defending the beliefs you have invested time and energy into is understandable, but very energy consuming and in fact can lead to serious imbalances, mental and physical. I'm sure you don't want to believe THAT, but I'm afraid you are damaging yourself by seeking to deny the obvious - M is a conman who wants and needs your money, and in fact the premies support him in an outrageously extravagant lifestyle. Yet he tells you that you need him! Ha, sucker! Ask yourself why m keeps himself so separate from his premies, if he loves them so much. Ask yourself why so many people so close to him have run away and now denounce him. Ask yourself why he's generated so much anger and hate - what could really explain that, do you think?

Do you think? Or do you just swallow his every contradictory word and convince yourself he's giving you something?

He's not shown any of that much talked about 'comapssion', 'love' or 'wisdom'
to those around him, including his loyal and devoted wife. If you want to justify his failure to lead his 'mission' anywhere in 30 years, you're going to have to do better than blaming mike Dettmers, or any other former 'servants'. How long are you going to give him to fulfill his promise to take premies across the ocean of maya and establish peace on earth? That was what he set out to do, after all.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 18:01:16 (GMT)
From: common
Email: None
To: QUESTIONER
Subject: defending the wolf?
Message:
Are you saying that he is a good teacher and the premies around here are at fault?
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:27:38 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: QUESTIONER
Subject: Why the alias, Questioner?
Message:
In fact, why the MULTI-alias?

(Ashamed of yourself, ashamed of your past posts here, or ashamed to be associated with your 'Master'?)

Anyway, Michael and Marianne have more than adequately answered your questions - and in so doing cleared the fog your post was attempting to place around Guji.

Are you going to thank them? You could maybe apologize to Michael for the all-too-obvious slur implicit in your cowardly post.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:51:04 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: QUESTIONER
Subject: Maharaji set the tone how he wanted things
Message:
If Maharaji had commanded his inner circle to give him all information concerning the state of human welfare of his premies, that would have happened. No one would have dared to hide anything from him if they knew he wanted it.

And tell me this: what self-respecting teacher doesn't keep some sort of tabs on those who are directly representing and reflecting on him by everything they do, by the input of others or by personal meetings?

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:46:24 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Questioner
Subject: Like Mr. Mind, you have picked a name and struck
Message:
fear in the hearts of devotees, only yours smacks of past ages, as in the Inquisition. Inquisitor and Questioner are synonymous and we all know what that was about...

So what are you afraid of, you who must hide behind such a thick and dusty title that is stained with the blood of saints?

Stand in the light of the Christos or get the hell out!

Sandy who ain't even trembling a little

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 03:19:07 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Like Mr. Mind, you have picked a name and struck
Message:
lets be nice to the newcomers. We don't know their state of mind. REALLY.

Just a thought. We don't know who they are so then, we can be more caring until we know more, meaning, to know what they are up to?

:)

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 06:51:36 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: QUESTIONER
Subject: My response
Message:
I have already stated that I did not know about the Jagdeo matter until a little more than a year ago. I have also stated that, despite my proximity to Maharaji while in his service, my role had nothing to do with instructors. I sometimes heard about a situation concerning one of the instructors simply because I happened to be around at the time, not because I was in any official loop of communication regarding these matters.

If you read my respectful letter to Maharaji dated July 25, 2000, I gave him the benefit of the doubt about his not knowing about the Jagdeo matter. My subsequent criticism is based on how he and Élan Vital have conducted themselves regarding this matter since then.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:16:24 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: My response
Message:
Michael,

I want to thank you very much for your conspicuous participation in this forum. Your straight-forward approach to this subject and revealing testimony affected me so profoundly that I subsequently, cannot help but count myself amongst the growing ranks of ex-premies. Unfortunately, I have to go through this alone. (Sound familiar, anyone?)

I am choking with emotions as I write this letter. My conscious mind is flooding with an overwhelming rate of grief. It is no wonder the human ego cannot, nor will not, tolerate such uninvited intrusions from the sub/un-conscious realm to interfere with our reality belief systems, especially the belief systems about our spirituality status.

Here's what's going with me.

I never really left Maharaji. My life just casually drifted away from premies and premie lifestyles as I cruised toward new shores. I thought about Maharaji and K occasionally but I only felt that my apron strings had been cut--that's all. Nothing traumatic, or dramatic--just fond, actually very fond, memories of the wild and crazy ride of my spiritual life.

In brief - My life as a premie.

On November 23rd, 1980 I rec'd K at the Broadripple Hotel. It was what I would call a 'Jimmy Hendrix' experiment. Lights, visions, etc. I was the Placebo that took, you might say. My new friends were the 70's show darshan freaks. They were hip and had impressive service positions. Accordingly, I found myself slipping into desireable service opportunities. I loved service. I loved satsang. I never really liked meditation, it hurt and was uncomfortable and my first show was a hard act to follow so I buried the meditation part, overcompensated in satsang and service and went for the longest bliss ride of my life.

Fast FWD to last service experience

Around December 4th 1986 I found myself doing service at the Oxnard Empress Hotel for the Int'l Instructors Convention. It lasted three days and I got to see and hear Maharaji frequently. Heck, I even had a chances to talk with him.
You were there!
You asked me do a little service project. It had to do with putting together a prospectus for some bank loan. I felt honoured to be privvy to M's confidential services.
The three day event was very fulfilling and I felt at that time that my googoo gaagaa days were behind me and I welcomed the opportunity to live my life as a mature! premie.

Ten Years Later

I wondered what happened? Where was Maharaji, premies, programs? Where was I? Oh yea! Internet! What did I find? The ex-premie chronicles. Whaa? Now I really didn't know where I had been. I read through some passages and my impression was (at that time guys) these are the same sniviling premies they always were. These guys are still bemoaning the closure of the ashrams? Are they stuck in a time warp? Etc. You get the picture. I called Jim and told him how I found the site and told him I'd like to talk to him about his experience, or lack of, in this case. (It turns out we live in the same city.) But that meeting never happened and I went on with my life truly grateful that for me, my experience(s) with Maharaji were the best times of my life.

Last Week

I was reading some spiritual stuff and an inner thought arose to check out the Ex-premie page. Actually, I was thinking that I might want to see him again. But when I opened up this site the first message at the top of thread was yours. Knowing who you were, and in what capacity you served Maharaji,I was eager to read what you had to say. People blame you for not saying enough, I don't. Not at all. For a person who had to sign corporate disclosures? What do others expect from you? You're participation alone, speaks volumes and I am very greatful, although grief sticken, to have been pried loose from the shackles of my past indiscretions.

This has not done a lot for my confidence and self trust. It's like realizing that I've been around school the whole day with a spiritual KICK-Me sign.

P.S. EVERYONE
Although it may have been Michael's name that caught my attention my proof-in-the-pudding is a result of all of your collective efforts.
I grieve not only for myself because there are Cynthias, MiraBeis, Mischlers, and others, for whom I must share my compassion. I wailed last night while hot tears stained my face as the message sunk-in about MiraBei's suicide. I remember those Hindu parables, I heard them straight from the Horse-asses mouth. In case you don't get the moral Maharaji
'MiraBei is not suppose to die, her faith and devotion are too strong. Goddamit!'

Sincerely yours,

Deborah Rose

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 04:04:43 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: QUESTIONER
Subject: Who are you and why are you here?
Message:
Hello Questioner. Interesting queries you have posed. You sound like someone who has been given agya to make this post. Or, if not, someone who is invested in protecting Captain Rawat.

I have some questions for you. Now that Captain Rawat has been personally contacted by both Abi and Susan about the sexual abuse they suffered at the hands of the cult's designated saint, why aren't Maharaji and Elan Vital compensating them for the harm they endured? Maharaji personally received and read Susan's letter. He met with Abi's father, and expressed regret and remorse about what Jagdeo did. Why is he not directing that something be done to heal the harm done to these women, and others who were sexually victimized by Jagdeo? The issue is on the table NOW. Why is it still being ignored? The only conclusion I can make it that the cult and Maharaji wanted to shut Abi and her father up while the Amaroo event was happening. It seems their strategy worked. Abi's father was muzzled and nothing has been done for Abi, as far as we can see from the posts on the forum.

Elan Vital and Maharaji injured Abi again as far as I can see. And so did Valerio, the licensed California psychologist and marriage, family and child counsellor. They did not take care of the woman, who as a child was severely damaged by Maharaji's emissary. Instead, they compounded the harm done to her by their false expression of sorrow and concern, and interference with her relationship with her family.

This is what you ought to be thinking about, Questioner. Maharaji and Elan Vital could have done something to right this wrong, and they have turned their backs on Abi and the others harmed by Jagdeo once again.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 01:13:52 (GMT)
From: General Sir David Mayhem
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: You must not miss this
Message:
This site appears to have gone almost unnoticed.

Click here for a very good site

A brilliant site in the making. I look forward to seeing more added to it.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:43:14 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: General Sir David Mayhem
Subject: East meets West/ West eats meat
Message:
Hi General Sir Dave
Yes Sir, I was there and can vouch for the pictures (India not US)
Satpal territory now. Oh the stories!
I approached Mishler and set up a committee called the JSCA committee which was premies against the regime. Also had an argument with Bal Bhagwan, as he was.
Greetings
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:46:31 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: General Sir David Mayhem
Subject: isn't she instuctor Harry Schneider's sister?
Message:
General-

If I'm not mistaken, isn't that Lucy Schneider from NY City?
I think I remember her from 1972 in NY.
Her brother is Harry Schneider, a current instructor, from Chicago, I believe.

In 1972, her mother led a group called 'mothers against maharaji', claiming that the guru was stealing their kids from them.
I think Dr. John Horton was called in to put out the fire, with somewhat mixed results....

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:33:50 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: General Sir David Mayhem
Subject: Brilliant site! Thanks.
Message:
I just pent an hour and a half on the site, very easy to use and nicely laid out, lots of stuff from the inactive forum here that I hadn't seen. I've printed a choice few pages off and am going to photocopyy them and give tham to my closest premie friends. Good work, Sir David (BTW, when did you get the knighthood?)
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 01:30:08 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: General Sir David Mayhem
Subject: thanks for the link
Message:
It's OK pics are great.
Although I have been a big fan of your off-beat humo(u)r dave, I didn't appreciate the games you played with me last night posting as General Mayhem.
Sometimes I think you either forget how fragile some of us are, or you do not give a shit. whatever nevermind.
Keep up the good fight which you periodically claim to not give a shit about.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 01:47:57 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: thanks for the link
Message:
I am sorry. You're right and I'm wrong. I said that also to a friend of mine yesterday and she was gobsmacked and said it was the first time ever!

I'm a cad and a bounder. I come and go here but oft come back as someone else for a day. I must have that Multiple Personality Disorder that Americans have. Either that or I'm barking mad.

No, don't say it...

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 01:56:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: point duly noted
Message:
Thanks for the head's up.
Your friend is a bigger person than I, at the moment.
ah well, time heals.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 06:46:36 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: She has an advantage
Message:
in that she knows me. On here, a bit of messin' around can be miscontrued and magnified. Plus one can't see the results of one's words. Words which have no 'tone of voice' to them.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:01:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: a bit of messin around
Message:
is not what triggered me. It's shit that has frequently happened to me from anonymous posters. As a result I'm oversensitive to this type of thing. This time I was surprised to find out it was you.
Let's just forget it, I'm sure I would really like a a few of you
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:12:21 (GMT)
From: Gordon Showcase
Email: premie@money.com
To: Selene
Subject: Well the Reverend's OK
Message:
but I don't know about that Sir David guy.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:21:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: and then there is YOU
Message:
I think I know who you are but not sure. I need to lighten up about all this. but yeah, that Sir David guy, shit he wouldn't even be a knight if it wasn't for me telling my guarding the door that went no where story, which inspired his guradian of the cheese story.
Some people(s)!!
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:38:02 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: disregard
Message:
Why bite the hook? Mind games? MORE? We had enough. Ignore them?

They don't have nothing better to do than to botter others.

I like YOU. ;)

sb

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:41:37 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: am not upset at Gordon Showcase :)
Message:
That isn't what I meant at all.

Well my searching only came up with one post on the shootings it was Tallahassee not Gainseville.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:43:24 (GMT)
From: Rev John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: am not upset at Gordon Showcase :)
Message:
Gordon, being one of my parishoners, is pleased to hear that.
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 18:03:28 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: am not upset at Gordon Showcase :)
Message:
I know. I'm reading too fast too: I think I need food. LOl

thanks reina de la luna

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 23:46:03 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: All Elan Vital visitors
Subject: If you really loved someone, and...
Message:
then discovered, after you'd given them your time, money and trust, that they'd been keeping some very big secrets from you - saying one thing and doing quite the opposite - wouldn't you be mad? Hurt, betrayed, probably wanting to lash out and tell the world what a bitch/bastard they were? You'd feel like the world had been knocked out from under you, and after the shock you would probably want to warn others about this person you once loved.

Well that's what's happened to us here, we were like you until the facts started intruding into our lovely, secure and totally mythical world. It's not pleasant, it's not easy, but the sooner you see miragey's true colours the more of the rest of your life you'll have to live the way you want to - free of his words, images, instructions, videos, trainings and all the rest. Your time is too precious to waste on an illusion! Be brave and look at the facts, review your experiences in the light of the testimonies on this site and actually listen to your heart as you read about the way m ignored the plight of children being abused by one of his mahatmas. Does that sound like the (non)action of a Perfect Master? Is that the sort of person you want to sit and listen to, spend money on travelling to go and see, spend evenings serving him when you could be with your children or friends or family?

You'll find all the support you need here as you work through the emotions and confusion. The sooner you start the sooner it'll be over and you'll be rejoining the human race. It's fun being yourself and not having to check your thoughts and words all the time according to the latest directive...

Welcome to the rest of your life!

With best wishes to you all :)

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:09:27 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: If you really loved someone...On top of that...
Message:
the premies have to deal with this:

1)M and EV are launching their 'propagation offensive' (yes, it's propagation, and yes, it's offensive).

2)'Good premies' will do what their master wants them to do, and attempt some propagation...

3)New people will ask disturbing questions, esp. after seeing EPO and other similar sites...

4)Premies will have to explain not only why they still listen to a guy like M, but also why they are not bothered by this stuff,why they worship a guy who's real life is so 'undivine',why they sing arti to him, and why they travel halfway around the world to line up and kiss his feet...not an easy thing to explain without looking like a total fanatic...

It's one thing to say that you overlook some of this stuff, and just listen to him as an inspiring speaker.
It's quite another thing to see all of this stuff,continue to worship the man, and try to bring others into it, while deliberately attempting to steer them away from the shadow side...

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 00:37:50 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: I hear you
Message:
and you 'sound' good!

Agree, agree, agree....now we are free.

Take good care of yourself and don't get too angry. I did get VERY angry and it took too long to go away. I guess we have to gorgive him somehow. What we can do to stop his lies is something else. A lie is a lie, and he sold us the biggest lie of all. He is GOD? no, of course. Just a sick person.

Love to u,

sb

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 02:59:11 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Look down on him!
Message:
I have a lot of anger too. but mostly I look down on rawat as a lesser human being, something he did to himself by what he did to us. I think of karma although I pretend to be agnostic. I realize that I am just very much better than him, which of course makes me feel good. it almost makes up for a lot. The rest will have to be worked out here, at home and by living a great life.
We do get closure by seeing him fail and his cult crumble, especially when we have some part in that!
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 14:01:55 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: aha
Message:
Of course you are bettet than him in that you are an honest person, you respect yourself, you want your own autonomy, you do not enjoy oppressing others, etc., etc...You got it right: He a lesser being, a low entity, a unloving false god. I hate to use the word god but you understand my point. What I practice today teaches me taht there is no need to give a name to what it's for IT to be, I simply have to understand it, yes non-believers, with my heart, with the part of me that seek what is truthful. What is true stands by itself no needing definitions. I had to find my spirit/heart, I had to remember in some point who I was before meeting him: I was a loving person because I was taught since a child that it feels better to love than to hate, and learned to enjoy loving. He harden me with his deceipt and I had to find the loving SB again to feel free. He didn't take taht from me. I can believe in MY 'assets' today again, I was born with them. Is a lie that a person needs someone's grace to be a whole person. We had all we needed from day one.

That is I guess the transition we go through when we leave. For our own good, to feel better, to heal, we need to understand the guy is a low entity, a sick person lost in his own illusionsa and that he refuses to truly LOVE. Someone said in a post that all cults have a sense of 'us against them' and is true. Real love brings people together, doesn't separate people. Cult leaders are like that, now I see it: We know the truth, they don't. He talks about it but doesn't know how to funcion from that place. Maybe he did scratched a little of it but is faaaaaaaarrrrrr offfffff. He told us to avoid going 'through the door with baggages' and himself has so, so many that he is stacked on 'its frame'. He talked to us about ego and he cannot see his own. He can't empower himself. His power is a lesser one, not from 'high above'. I cannot prove anything or talked about it but I do have a LOVE 'experience'. That is simple and good enough for me.I'm happy. I have many problems, some bigger than others but I feel whole. I got out in pieces.

I used to think in karma but now I don't even care, or wish something bad for him (I did in some point, I wished the worst to him). I think being himself as he really is is bad enough, don't you think? I believe in karma, instictively. He may walk around like a proud cock knowing all but the truth always pounds and if he haven't got it yet you can imagine the inner turmoil the guy carries inside. It must be awful, and I sleep like an angel every night....:)

He is suffering and I would like to hear him deny it and explain what he think to be the reason. Is the stupid premies.... sure Lordy, sure. When is he going to become human? He is so, so stupid. I just can't believe it. Not all that shines is gold my mother told me since I was a kid and I got myself sucked by his shine, like I didn't had one. We were dupped alright and now he needs to realize that his father dupped him. That is what I think. I didn't meet shri and haven't read much about him, but I think that anybody who believe to be somebody special to the point of asking others to kiss his feet says it all. He love HIS master so, so much (not. That is not real love) that he can't let go of the concept? Maybe he knows exactly what he is doing and only him and the fatso he has alwaysa round know it. To play GOD must be interesting: You get whatever you ask. (Power corrupts) Or, he refuses to grow as a human being and thus, he is miserble as we were when we were following him and doesn't know how to be sincere with himself. Imagine waking up and looking yourself in the mirror every morning and thing you are GOD. Is too much! LOL

From my side, me, honestly believing I can have a beautiful experience being human and enjoying alive, to really experience the LOVE I always wanted more of, I had to come to terms with my anger toward him and love his essence. Yes I detest his low entity personality and his lies but I find enjoyment standing for truth. I do too feel somewaht responsible because I'm one of the group who put him up above and in any way I may be able to help others see the 'light' I saw brings me satisfaction. Gurushi is fake. I feel like a warrior. I don't want to bring him down, but his evil empire.

Love is real, mine to you,

SB

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:08:26 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: aha
Message:
we don't bring him down, he does it himself. But it does feel great to sink his ship.!
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:57:33 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: destroying darkness/ignorance fills good, agree NT
Message:
free
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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 23:15:00 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I wrote to the Daily Mail today, letters expres...
Message:
sing concern about M's visit here will perhaps be taken up as a story when the time comes. Especially following Jean-Michel's work in France, there should be a knock-on effect. I just said I'd heard he was coming and that there are alot of people unhappy about him and what he's done over the years and people should look out, not be taken in by the words - that sort of thing. It probably won't be published, it's too soon before June, but since it actually the 30th anniversary of M's first visit to England I'm sure some journalist somewhere will spot a good story when they see one! If there's a general outcry from all the ex's, it's gonna alert the press. When they start digging around, if they aren't already, there's plenty to find now!

I thought I'd start with the Daily Mail since Jonathan Cainer left them and they might like a reason to dish a little dirt. An anniversary is always a good reason to review the history of the person concerned.

I intend to keep on writing letters, anyone else want to express yourselves in any appropriate way? Now there's an event to make our concerns pertinent to the public we can follow in J-M's footsteps. I haven't got much of a story to tell, but it's the personal testimonies that will really interest others outside this forum, IMHO. Anyway, it's one way of throwing a little pebble into the smooth pond of M's public persona, so to speak, and the more the merrier!

Let's make a noise out there!

Tchau. Jani the committed letter writer.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 00:40:08 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: thanks for the support
Message:
This is waht can be done, easily.

Did you email them? I can email the one I sent to PBS. Is better than nothing. right?

If you can, can you post your letter?

Luv,

sb

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 12:24:30 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: thanks for the support
Message:
I emailed the Daily Mail, but I'm going to write to all the national papers, pointing out that M did not show up in Paris and there's something definitely amiss about him and his 'message'. It's very satisfying, playing a small part in kicking up a fuss! Hopefully he won't turn up in Nottingham either - and then the premies will start wondering what's going on...

It's good to do something practical!

Take car,
All the best,

Jani

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 03:04:00 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: thanks for the support
Message:
good idea!

:)

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 23:42:11 (GMT)
From: General Mayhem
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Definitely on the right track
Message:
The public are our allies in this war. Maharaji is not the sort of figure who people warm to, with his lavish life-style and strange philosophy. All we have to do is publicise him; point the spotlight on him and his weird cult.

Nothing wrong with that! Remember what he said:

'Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? Everyone must hear that the saviour of mankind has come!'

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 23:58:27 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: General Mayhem
Subject: Definitely! Tomorrow I'm going to find the ...
Message:
name and address of some Nottingham papers - and write to them. If someone was coming into the country that I knew had an infectious and sometimes fatal disease, I'd warn people, wouldn't you? That's what m and 'his message' is like - a disease. Prevention is better than cure, after all! Letter-writing campaigns have a good record of effectiveness, Amnesty International use letter-writing to great effect. It's not too expensive and avoids any possible confrontations. We all have a right to say what we feel about m coming here to harangue/reminisce about his great achievements in the last 30 years. Just think, if we'd all given the money we've given him to GreenPeace or some campaigning organisation (just for example) we'd have actually seen some result from it by now! The world really would be a better place. Could have channelled all that energy and enthusiasm into something real. He's robbed us all, and it's such a waste!

Going to bed now, night night.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 03:52:28 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: how bout it, you brits? make noise. wake em up
Message:
anth, pat, nige, sir dave, kelly,--you know who you are! roar. send em emails with excerpts from here. Put em on to the uproar in France right now. spread the waves. momentum is crucial. timing matters. you have a classic PR advertising public awareness scenario in front of you. start now and keep it up so they can't ignore it or forget about it as a blip on the screen. this is the europe of the third millennium. britain isnt an island alone anyore. you have the chunnel train and the eurodollar. europe is an entity with power and a voice and intelligence.

push. the enemy is strategizing as we speak, planning on how he means to invade the realm. repel him summarily, as you have done victoriously in the past. this is an enemy greater than the romans, greater than the saxons, greater than the teutons, greater than even the Nazi's ever were. They only wanted your land, your goods, your daughters, your throne.

But this enemy wants your very souls. He wants to enslave and possess your venerated and ancient people and rob them of their ability to reason, to steal from them their sense of propriety, ethical rightness, respect and dignity.

It ought to be a cold day in hell before an Englishman happily lays himself down in the mud before an illiterate, self aggrandizing, ignorant, half breed hindu!
aye?

Aye!
the outrage of such an idea!

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 06:42:09 (GMT)
From: E Bai Gum-Ladd
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: how bout it, you brits? make noise. wake em up
Message:
Oh aye. There's trouble up mill the neet.
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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 20:30:29 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bada-bing! (something like that)
Message:
Check out Jodie (Abi's Mum) thread and Mike Dettmer's response to her in the thread below entitled
'Jagdeo - and Abi'

QUOTE
;

I am Abi's Mum and want to express my disgust and outrage
at the abuse she suffered from Jagdeo at Wringford Manor in 1976.

As parents we were unaware of the practises of paedaphiles and innocently let out children
'play games' along with Jagdeo, thinking this was a blessing for them. When he selected
Abi to 'play chess' with him alone, we thought how wonderful for her.
Abi did not confide in me then what happend but tried to get her brother Ivan to tell me
that Jagdeo fancied her. I dont even remember him telling me as was so niave and 'blissed
out' by the honour that it never once crossed anyone's mind that anything could be
seriously amiss.

I am of the opinion that Elan Vital and Maharaji should take full responsibility for this man's
action for justice must be done to recompense and acknowledge the abuse, to all those
kids who have gone through such disgusting encounters. They should openly acknowledge
what has occurred and offer compensation to all individuals who have come forward.
Unless they do this the movement will be forever sullied and conflicts will only remain and
this affair will never go away. It has to be openly acknowledged. They need to ask
forgiveness not the victims.....
They need to come to terms with the affair, not the victims....
I will continue to support my daughter in her fight for justice
in whatever way is possible for me. I am very proud of her in that way she has battled for
years with her scars from the experience and the way she picks herself up and carries on,
when she is exhausted and fragile. I will always support my daughter
whatever it takes, for, surely it is I who are to take some responsibility, the premies in that
ashram, Divine Light Mission but ultimately it is always the head of an organisation that
bears the utmost responsbility and that is Maharaji.

.
.
.
Date:
Fri, May 25, 2001 at 20:01:52
From:
Michael Dettmers
Email:
dettmers@gylanix.com
To:
Jodie
Subject:
Jagdeo - and Abi
Message:

Dear Jodie,

Thanks for speaking out. If any situation reflects the tunnel vision that is produced by
“cult-think,” this is it. Cult-think produces an “us against the world” mentality. This myopia
blinds cult members and their leaders alike from recognizing legitimate concerns and
reasonable questions posed by those inside and outside of the cult. Every accusation,
however grounded, is viewed as an attack and a threat by a hostile world bent on their
destruction. Nothing epitomizes this condition more than the way Maharaji and Élan Vital
have so far mishandled the Jagdeo matter. Not only is their behavior morally and ethically
reprehensible but also, from a public relations point of view, their response to date has
been incredibly stupid. Whatever they may ultimately do about this situation, it is too late to
undo to public relations fiasco they have brought upon themselves. I can’t imagine anyone
who knows the facts becoming involved with such a disreputable leader and his
organization.

Their pathetic attempt to deflect responsibility by invoking the supposed legal separation
between Maharaji and Élan Vital is ludicrous. Do they think we are idiots? They are simply
demonstrating how fearful and out of touch with reality they are. Maharaji always reserved
the right to declare who is and is not an instructor for himself, and there are plenty of
people who can testify to that fact. Would they have us believe that Jagdeo was traveling
around the world on his own behalf with his own money? Who made him a mahatma?
Whose knowledge was he supposed to be spreading? What was the context that enabled
him to be in contact with so many children? Why did you and other parents feel it was safe
and beneficial for your children to be left alone with Maharaji’s mahatmas? Who paid for
his food, travel and support? And who sponsored him and secured his visas?

Although Élan Vital claims to have conducted a thorough investigation, it appears, until
recently at least, that they never interviewed any of Jagdeo’s victims. And they left it up to
Deepak Raj Bhandari, the national organizer in India, to question Jagdeo. Clearly,
Maharaji should have interviewed Jagdeo. Why would Jagdeo admit his crimes to an Élan
Vital official he hardly even knows? Maharaji, on the other hand, was the person he
proclaimed as his lord and master. I doubt that he would have denied his guilt if he were
personally confronted with the evidence by Maharaji. Yet, by not interviewing Jagdeo,
Maharaji departed from his normal practice of personally disciplining mahatmas who
committed lesser, but nonetheless serious, offences.

I don’t believe, however, the suggestion by some that Maharaji did not confront Jagdeo
because he was afraid of him, or that he had something on Maharaji. There were many
mahatmas from whom Maharaji hid his x-rated lifestyle, including Jagdeo. He did so, not
because he was afraid of them, but simply because he was not comfortable enough to
allow them to witness behavior that was so at odds with what he preached. I am
convinced that the reason Maharaji did not interview Jagdeo is because, given the nature
of the accusations against him, he was advised by his lawyers to distance himself from his
former agent.

A real Master, if such a one exists, must be a warrior when standing up for the truth. When
it really counts, however, Maharaji has shown that he is a coward. I characterized him as
such when he failed to respond to Susan’s efforts to have him address this situation last
July, and it appears that nothing fundamentally has changed since then. He continues to
demonstrate that he is more interested in protecting his “ass”ets than he is in doing what is
right.

In the end, his efforts to avoid any responsibility in this matter will fail. He continues to lose
the love and respect of so many people who were once inspired to help him further his
mission. People of conscience will not let go of this issue until he publicly apologizes for the
crimes Jagdeo committed while in his service, until he seeks out and compensates all of
Jagdeo’s victims, and until he does whatever is necessary to bring Jagdeo to justice.

Michael

ENDQUOTE

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 20:23:31 (GMT)
From: Kev
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji The Snake
Message:
Hi all

I was going to post this the other day in response to one of PatC post, in which he mentioned a story about a scorpion. But then the server went down, Doh!

Pat’s story reminded me of another good story I once heard (not M related)
I really like this story so I thought I would be brave and make it my first ever thread.

So as this is my first thread, here is a bit of history on me. When I was a premie I think I was always viewed and felt a bit of an outsider. Having said this, I was a local aspirant contact and for a little while a local contact and towards the end did some national service at m’s gigs. I think I felt like an outsider mainly because of my age (I was a good 10 years younger than most premies) and I am now only 41. So I was not around in the 70’s and did not get K until 87. By that time m had reinvented himself and his own history. I still feel like an outsider on the forum but I hope that will pass.

The story goes like this,

There once was a Buddhist monk who was walking in the snow. He was just going to tread on a stick on the ground when he realized that the stick was really a frozen snake. Knowing that others may come after him along the same path and may not see the snake and kill it by treading on it. And being the good monk he was and holding all life to be sacred. He decides to save the snake and take it back home with him. When he is home he lovingly wraps the snake in a warm blanket and with great care places it in front of a nice warm fire. In no time at all the snake comes back to life. The monk being very pleased with himself goes to pick up the snake. Where upon the snake turns around and bits him. 'Why have you bitten me? Do you not realize I have just save your life? And now you try to kill me. Why?' pleas the monk. And with that the snake turns around and says to him 'What did you expect, fool, am a snake'

The greatest sadness for me is that a lot of people whom I still love will one day get bitten my the snake.

Best wishes,
Kev

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 22:56:26 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Kev
Subject: Outsiders .
Message:
Were're all outsiders here & thank God for that .

The snake story is good ,but depressing , as it implies that Rawat inherited his modus operandi (probably true) & that the suckers were the righteous ones , us (ditto).

He sure as hell isn't going to give up on present evidence , but who knows what's going on in the mind of the perfect one & his v.expensive lawyers .

I've always liked these brer rabbit folk tales from all around the world & thought they pointed to universal truths , till I heard this one from a Russian .

A little bird , flying south to escape the onset of winter , leaves it a bit too late & gets frozen in mid air when the wind changes .

A farmer finds him on the ground & plonks him in a warm fresh cow turd .

A day later a passerby sees the little bird , plucks him out , cleans him off & releases him into the freezing sky from which he falls down dead .

Moral : Not everyone who puts you in the shit is your enemy & not everyone who takes you out is your friend .

Pat Dorrity


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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 03:44:22 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Kev
Subject: We're all outsiders here, Kev
Message:
Hi Kev. As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as an 'insider' around here. We're here because we fled the notions of exclusivity which the cult nourished and encouraged. Learning to be ourselves, even when seemingly out of step with others, was a costly lesson we got when we left the cult. Trust yourself and your own instincts. We appreciate risk taking here.

Kev, have you written your journey? That is a good way to help people here understand you and what you went through. You must have endured lots of pain and disappointment to spend so many years waiting for knowledge. What was that like for you? What was said to you when you spoke to the initiators about it? Why did you continue to seek it? I'd be very interested to hear your story.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 10:23:04 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: We're all outsiders here, Kev
Message:
Hi Marianne, Lesley and Bin Liner,

Yes, you are right of course, We are all outsiders here and as Lesley pointed out, premie life did breed a clubyness(sp?) that I also did not like. The M and E.V. cult, I found was/is very class and money based.

Marianne, I am going to write my journey but it is just finding the time to do it. For some reason you seem to think I spent a long time getting K. This was not the case; I just was not around in the early 70's.

Lesley, sorry to hear you are feeling a bit down today, I get days like that, when the anger of it all comes back. I hope your day gets better.

Love kev

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 05:33:09 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: The world is a better place
Message:
with you guys in it. Thanks for the honesty and the understanding. Reading your post, Marianne, was like looking at a smile in the clouds. I wish I could be a smile for people all the time, but not today. Today I am feeling pissy. The antics of the weasel and his new friend have made me feel angry.

One of the things I really hated as a premie was the clubbiness and rings of exclusivity that resulted in people being treated so dismissively. It was a relief to understand that people behaved this way because they were learning it from Rawat. However I am not a premie anymore, and I really don't have to put up with it. I hope 'General Mayhem' learns some manners, and I hope David realises how dismissive he has been to me, the pissy little weasel.

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 20:19:23 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Take this Knowledge and be overwhelmed!
Message:
from http://www.enjoyinglife.org/enjoylife/knowledge.nsf

quote:

At 5 pm, both aspirants and people with Knowledge are seated, waiting for Maharaji. There is silence but first there is more of Maharaji on screen, he says:

'Take this breath and feel this gratitude. Take this Knowledge and be overwhelmed! Overwhelmed by knowing that you are alive!'

And then the most magical moment of the event so far: Maharaji walks in with a big smile around 5:20 pm. He speaks for about 70 minutes, talking of the plans for the summer, and about his work and the work of his father, Sri Maharaj Ji: 'A long time ago, my master, my father, my guru lit a candle; and it still shines in an extremely dark place.'

He recalled how his father used to tell people: 'Come to me, and I can show you that joy, that peace which is inside you.'

He then passionately emphasised: 'What a statement! What a statement! What an incredible, incredible statement to make: Come to me and I'll give you peace. Come to me and I'll show you what you're looking for. Take it in, people. That's quite an incredible statement. It's not, 'I'm going to fix your problems.' It's not like that ad: 'You've got too many debts. If you have eight-thousand-dollar debt, it will take you 47 years to pay it off. You can consolidate your debts. Call this number.' No, nothing like that.

'Come to me, and I can show you what you're looking for.'

[you people 'taken in' by this?]

He continued: 'A long time ago, I wanted to bring joy into people's lives. That's what I wanted to do. This year, in England, in Nottingham, there is a program on 16 and 17 June. That is to the day (17 June 1971), 30 years since I came to England. I'm still trying to bring joy into people's lives. One would have been enough, but I know that I have brought joy in many people's lives. And that joy continues to unfold.

And it will continue to unfold. This is a story that will go on, and on and on and on.

'This isn't something that was just started by me. This story and the storytellers go back a long ways. A long ways. And they've told the sweetest story. And those who have listened have been enjoying the sheer bliss of it.'

Maharaji spoke with great humour and passion. Watch out for the broadcast…

ENDQUOTE

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 09:34:01 (GMT)
From: Dave Punshon
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Actions speak louder than words
Message:
Rawats actions don't seem to match his words ......
As he is no longer 'god in physical form' as he now claims, then surely he is just a plain old run-of-the-mill hypocrite who spins
endless platitudes of his own making without actually walking his own talk. Ok, so I don't pretend to be perfect and have been known to spin a line of bullshit myself from time to time, but he
has wasted the valuable time of many people over many years with his (quite often) diatribe.
The word 'diatribe' is quite appropriate I feel;def. abuse, invective, tirade, reviling, dissertation, effusion, disputation.
The word abuse alone would quite happily sum up my experience of the Rawat cult. I'm just getting round to writing my experiences for a 'journeys' posting to follow soon.

all the best

Dave

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 04:29:25 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Dave Punshon
Subject: Actions speak louder than words
Message:
Hi Dave!

have you posted here before? Just curious.

Love 2 u,

sb

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 08:28:05 (GMT)
From: Dave Punshon
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Actions speak louder than words
Message:
Hi SB
Have posted a few times - used to post as ex-mug a while back
all the best
Dave
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 12:58:13 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Dave Punshon
Subject: Actions speak louder than words
Message:
to u 2! Thanks
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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 09:06:29 (GMT)
From: Dave Punshon
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Words are cheap
Message:
anyone can say these words, whether they mean them or not, and any succer can believe them I guess. I was a succer to believe this Rawat brat in the first place, but there again I had taken too much acid.....
Rawat is a slick performer who has honed the art of fine bullshitting over his 30 years in the west, but his time as an
illusionist is numbered as more and more succers become ex-succers....and relate the stories of their time around Rawat
within the public forum.
I wish all exs the very best life can offer -

Dave

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 19:28:53 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: If Jean Michel can do it in France...
Message:
I want to add to the chorus of approbations for J-M's fine AND VERY EFFECTIVE methodolgy of fighting the cult in his country.

Well done, sir.

Perhaps we can model and duplicate his efforts in other countries, especially here in the US, because it's the Filament's home base.

Of course, being the laziest mortal on the face of the earth, I'm not the person for the job...

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 21:49:08 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: It's possible
Message:
I'm not an American by blood, culture has changed me a little but I will use my past one to push a little. 'We' didn't get it easy there.

Every little counts? YES!

Hi gerry!

sb

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 23:20:20 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: big 'hi' to you sb!
Message:
I haven't had the confidence to post on the Spanish forum, not yet.


You seem to be doing great. I'm happy for you!

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