Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:02:14 (GMT)
From: May 25, 2001 To: Jun 01, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


Lesley -:- THE WEASEL -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 22:10:19 (GMT)
__ SB/Silvia -:- Hi lotus/Lesley -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:15:45 (GMT)
__ Forum Admin -:- LESLEY, PLEASE EMAIL ME -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:24:25 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Admin -:- A Correction and a Reminder -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 05:14:00 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- One correction Lesley -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 22:48:53 (GMT)
__ __ CW -:- One correction Lesley -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:18:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Who gives a Rat's -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 08:01:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Who gives a Rat's -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 18:14:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- Hey Cat, seems Michele has more balls than you -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:25:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Uh oh, now I feel sorry for Catweasel -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:35:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- pool'lil kitten -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:08:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- Caught in the crossfire -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:40:11 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- what amuses me (on a good day) -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 22:52:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Hello -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 01:09:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Hello, I remember you from IHQ -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:58:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Hello, I remember you from IHQ -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:10:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ swami sucha banana -:- drop the 'banana' bit, saboteur thief. it's taken. -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:52:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- drop the 'banana' bit, saboteur thief. it's taken. -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:14:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Hello , and apologies for thinking .... -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:44:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Hello , and apologies for thinking .... -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:37:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Am all tears now. -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:52:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Am all tears now. -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:57:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Yes -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 07:11:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Why I am here -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:27:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Who told I was ugly -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:27:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- OK I have a question for you Michele re ELK -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 04:11:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- OK I have a question for you Michele re ELK -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:07:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- You're happy helping Charnanand? -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:55:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Charnanand has helped me -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:27:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Charnanand has helped me? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:41:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You cheap, lying whore -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:05:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- It doesn't reflect on his integrity as a person? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:15:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Were you always so superficial, Michele? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:10:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Were you always so superficial, Michele? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:47:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Michelle,with all due respect what kind of sex are -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:56:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Some premies had better sex in ashrams than out NT -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:35:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Were you always so superficial, Michele? -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:21:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- That was not very mainstream... -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:38:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- I'll say it in simple words -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 08:01:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're either a dunce or posing as one -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 07:03:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- is hard to explain Michele -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:29:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Thanks, Selene -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:09:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- So, Michelle is Banana bai -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:26:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- So, Michelle was stinky bai (nt -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:56:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Hello Silvia -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:23:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ silvia -:- HE SAID HE IS YOURS -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 11:57:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- HE SAID HE IS YOURS -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:49:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Yeah,act stupid now -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:02:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Well done Michelle -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:29:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Well done -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:29:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- C'mon Michelle, who's your next pick for sad-guru? -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:14:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- C'mon Michelle, who's your next pick for sad-guru? -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 07:05:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Michelle,you are now my official #1 pick... -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 18:46:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Michelle,you are now my official #1 pick... -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:49:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- oops -- typo correction for post directly above -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:56:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Hello, Michele. Any friend of Joy's is a potential -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 01:28:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Hi PatC . . . but you might wanna wait -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:56:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Of course I still like you, Michele -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 19:18:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Ahhhh, thanks Joy -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:03:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Hi Michele - all good questions deserving sincere -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 08:02:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Hi Michele - all good questions deserving sincere -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:52:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Hi Michele - I just read your PS to la-ex about EV -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 09:33:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Hi Michele -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:44:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Michelle Mitchell Michael -:- Hi Michele -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 07:13:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Hi Michele -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:01:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- I remember you too -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:58:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Sandy -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:42:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Richard,are Peggy and Cliff exes or prems now?nt -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:48:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Don't know about Peggy, Cliff is not ex /nt -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 03:40:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- you got it in one -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:04:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- exactly! and so true, like we care anyway :) -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:36:51 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- My dear, Lesley, I wholeheartedly agree with you -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 22:29:59 (GMT)
__ __ clh -:- My dear, Lesley, I wholeheartedly agree with you -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:16:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Hi clh- WELCOME ABOARD nt -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:35:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- clh, I started posting here at first anonymously -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:27:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CW -:- clh, I started posting here at first anonymously -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 09:27:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ clh -:- clh, I started posting here at first anonymously -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 04:50:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- agree completely -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:31:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Selene, What is the problem? -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 22:15:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- my problem with policies in general -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:46:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- We're just trying to be flexible -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:42:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- diff problems needing diff approaches. -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:04:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- The bottom line -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:42:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- ps to FA - oh yah the other stuff -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:28:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- I'll try -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:58:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- try is all we can do -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:18:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- one answer might be just to ignore any post .. -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 01:01:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- another approach is to stop sleeping... -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:00:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- ....except for when you dream that you're on FV -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:50:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- but isn't the whole of life a dream anyway? -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:32:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- There have been some heavy guerilla attacks -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 01:10:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- There have been some heavy guerilla attacks -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:44:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- also fair's fair - good for goose, good for gander -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:37:29 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- well 'they' (ahem) chased me off AG -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 22:38:02 (GMT)

jim boeger -:- from a premie(still) who spent 4 months in jail in -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 16:06:07 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- from an ex- premie(still) who spent 29 years in -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 16:27:34 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Jani, I know Jim and he does not meditate -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 19:36:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- The fifth technique -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 10:58:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ CD -:- I know -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:17:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bob -:- very fundamental -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 21:57:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Nobody is going to do what Maharaji suggests -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 21:16:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Hi Chris, and it is heartbreaking -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:25:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- just occurred to me, do you think that there are.. -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:05:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Maybe it is time to admit medit.. is bullshit? -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:19:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- checked email, thanks and -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:54:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Hey Chris -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:32:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Hey -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 21:09:10 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Rolling Stone Article: 1st half -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:36:09 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- You should have video clip now NT -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:34:55 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Levine,Hallowitz+Bernstein-jewish law firm, or? -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 19:31:20 (GMT)
__ Carl -:- Excellent! Excellent! This is like time travel! -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 19:25:37 (GMT)
__ CD -:- Rolling Stone Article: 1st half -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 18:56:30 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- what's the point of criticising J-M? He's .. -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:35:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ CD -:- point -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:33:26 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Still the same thing -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:33:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ CD -:- Still the same thing -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 21:16:54 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Rolling Stone Article: 1st half -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 17:35:39 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- Rolling Stone Article: 1st half.Wow! -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 16:07:24 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Rolling Stone Article: 1st half.Wow! -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 17:18:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- Rolling Stone Article: 1st half.Wow! -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 04:57:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- What's the point? It reminded me of where .. -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:06:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- And furthermore Mili !! -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 07:50:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- And furthermore Mili !! -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 08:10:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ silvia -:- Yes, malice -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 12:40:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I'm not expecting you to understand ANYTHING! -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 07:46:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- I'm not expecting you to understand ANYTHING! -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 08:30:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill-You should be able -:- to answer those questions yourself by now Mili!.nt -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:25:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ creativejani -:- Oh good! Excellent, truly timely reminder!!nt -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:07:26 (GMT)

Bazza -:- Calling all plane spotters -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:36:07 (GMT)
__ G -:- N54PR where aaaaare you?; the evil EPO (LOL) -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 04:02:44 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- And EPO boasts 7 million exes to date! LOL n/t -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:09:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- ps to this date, not ''to take out on a date'' n/t -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:13:24 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Calling all plane spotters -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 16:55:50 (GMT)

Kev -:- Secrets and Lies -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:22:30 (GMT)
__ silvia/sb -:- good post!! :) nt -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 05:34:42 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- Secrets and Lies. Very true! I'm finding that I' -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:45:14 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- If aspirants knew the techniques, they'd leave -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 18:25:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Very clearly put, Kev, Jani and La-ex -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 19:46:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Calling all aspirants - here are the techniques... -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:49:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ probono -:- Calling all aspirants - here are the techniques... -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:44:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bryn -:- K. makes you dull -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 12:20:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- PB,how about M giving us his word that he ... -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:02:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- no, this is kundalini yoga, been around a lot long -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 01:45:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- no I don't think that is it -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:55:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- It's strange how it all got turned around,isn't it -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:13:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ probono -:- It's strange how it all got turned around,isn't it -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:34:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Enjoying Life -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 22:44:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ probono -:- Enjoying Life -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 07:12:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ kev -:- It's strange how it all got turned around,isn't it -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 19:58:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ probono -:- It's strange how it all got turned around,isn't it -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 07:21:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ kev -:- a little joke for you -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:35:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- De gustibus non est disputandum, Probono -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:09:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ probono -:- De gustibus non est disputandum, Probono -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 07:39:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Probono, I don't get much into the scandals -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 09:52:00 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- EV UK's provocation.Children invited in Nottingham -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 13:17:17 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- That's DISGUSTING! -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:41:47 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Different law here , the concept of official -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:05:56 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- EV UK's provocation.Children invited in Nottingham -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 19:00:57 (GMT)
__ SB -:- did you find out how to do it? -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 16:14:13 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- EV UK's provocation.Children invited in Nottingham -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 13:53:38 (GMT)
__ __ jim boeger -:- EV UK's provocation.Children invited in Nottingham -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:30:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- That's understood -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:44:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Or howabout GURU IN CHILD ABUSE COVER-.. -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 16:33:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ creative jeanie -:- Or howabout GURU IN CHILD ABUSE COVER-.. -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 01:12:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You do have a point -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 01:58:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ creativejeannie -:- You do have a point -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 07:52:19 (GMT)

Mr. Mind -:- Meanwhile, as we were gonna save the world.. -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 11:00:42 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- *** Very Serious Point *** -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:16:44 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- That's dead right , there must be thousands ... -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:34:40 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- So what do you LIKE to be called for short? -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 14:21:36 (GMT)

JohnT -:- The Shell Man -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 10:39:15 (GMT)
__ SB -:- 'Sales you something you were never missing' -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 13:23:02 (GMT)

jumbler -:- resolution time -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 23:30:50 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- I agree, but who's got the master plan? -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 04:18:33 (GMT)
__ sb -:- YES!!! NT -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 03:47:01 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- resolution time -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 01:08:37 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- resolution time -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 23:49:17 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- jumbling -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 01:12:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bryn -:- Jumbling made me the man I am today! nt -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 11:07:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ creativejani -:- jumbling - yeah! Highlight of the mission..nt -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 01:21:18 (GMT)

JHB -:- Weird experience and thoughts on light -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 22:58:24 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- I know what that was -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:48:44 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- Weird experience and thoughts on light -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 14:02:37 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- Wierd? Makes perfect sense. -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 12:12:08 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- hi, are you the Bryn from Leeds I used to know? -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 14:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bryn -:- Yes its me. We played tunes together did we not?nt -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:17:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bryn -:- Email me Jani. BD -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 21:08:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Yes, he is:-) -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 18:00:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Yes, he is:-) He posted his email, thanks! nt -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:25:52 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Drake (ot) -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 13:35:53 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Could the velvety darkness be God? (nt) -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 03:16:26 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Weird experience and thoughts on light -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 00:32:10 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- Weird thoughts ... -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 23:22:50 (GMT)
__ Arlo Guthrie -:- 'You can't have a light without ... -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 23:03:56 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Migraineur -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 04:52:01 (GMT)


Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 22:10:19 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: THE WEASEL
Message:
I feel a little guilty for not making this post earlier, but I am glad to see that you guys nailed him anyway. Personally, I am so sick of the weasel that I just did not want to take part in the forum anymore, too aggravating, possibly that pleases him.

His name is David, he lives in Northern NSW, Australia, he comes from UK, he is middleaged.

Catweasel, Cerise, bb, banana bai, christian star are some of his aliases.

He has consistently exhibited no respect, either for the participants, or the forum guidelines, and despite reportedly undertaking to quit the forum, is still here messing around, and so I would suggest, David, that you take note of the fact that I have added my surname, yours is next.

PatC, I guess he probably really loved your masters and dogs post, I am sorry that you were had by him again, I empathise, he got me with Christian star too, and probably several other times when I first started posting here. Talk about fucking with people's minds, and he knew how fragile I was, I live in the same area. What a fucking cunt, thanks Gerry.

I cannot stress enough how important the forum is, imo. I cannot understand what makes that snivelling creep think he has the right to disrupt it continually with his inane, irrational, doggy doodoo, year after year.

Ah well, I shall soon be taking a break from forum participation for a while, for the usual reasons, just time to focus on the day to day and allow good living to play it's part in healing the hurt.

All the best to everyone, Lesley Veale, the ex-lotus eater.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:15:45 (GMT)
From: SB/Silvia
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Hi lotus/Lesley
Message:
Thanks for your courage, really. I hope you are doing good in all areas.

Tons of love,

S

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:24:25 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: forum5god@yahoo.com
To: Lesley
Subject: LESLEY, PLEASE EMAIL ME
Message:
Forum policy is that we do NOT permit the outing of other anonymous posters (however much we don't like them).

To allow your partial outing, and threat of full outing, to stand, I need to discuss this with you.

Forum Admin.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 05:14:00 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Lasley
Subject: A Correction and a Reminder
Message:
Lesley,

I have corrected my post inserting the missing word 'NOT', and remind you to please email me regarding your post.

Apologies to all for any confusion my typo caused.

Forum Admin

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 22:48:53 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: Lesley
Subject: One correction Lesley
Message:
David/catweasel is not Christian Star aka banana bai. I don't know why you would think that, but you can email me about it if you like.

I've been exchanging emails with her and she has told me her real identity, which I have been able to confirm by independent means, which I won't go into here. Most of what was discussed was done so in confidence, so it will have to remain between me, the Lord of the Universe and my attorney:) [just kidding].

This needn't change anyone's opinon of either of those two people, and I'm not making excuses for bb's pro-maharaji stance, just wanted to make the facts known.

I always had a vibe that Cat was a Brit - it takes one to know one, but I was under the impression he lived in a dunny in Alice Springs!

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:18:49 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: Pass this one on Bazza
To: Bazza
Subject: One correction Lesley
Message:
Bullshit. I'm no Brit. And I dont live in NSW. Never have. As usual Miss Porker, you assume WAY to much. Give one credible scrap of evidence. I suggest you explore the early archives. It might give you a clue . Poor ole David whoever. He can join Bruce,Elmars, John and a host of others. Cest le vie....
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 08:01:08 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Who gives a Rat's
Message:
Call me Catweasel but I find this all terribly amusing.I mean who cares.
Tell you one thing though...It will burn your undies when you do find out M/s Lesley. Sweet thing
And Bazza, what difference would it make - would you send me a Christmas card?
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 18:14:11 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Who gives a Rat's
Message:
Sure Cat I'll put you on my Christmas card list. I don't have a problem with you, you're like the last clue in the Times crossword puzzle which just keeps evading you - irritating but only in an entertaining way.

I think the problem is now that if you were to 'out' yourself you'd lose 95% of your entertainment value - its a bit like watching 'The Fugitive' TV series, you being the mysterious one-armed man.

You can still email me, offer's open. I didn't 'out' banana bai when she told me who she was prior to posting it herself, so I can be trusted.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:25:10 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Hey Cat, seems Michele has more balls than you
Message:
I mean, after all the flaming and flack banana bai copped this week, she still came out and gave her real name.

C'mon Cat., not going to let a sheila show you up are you? Call yourself an aussie mate, Old Ned would be turning in his grave.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:35:47 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Uh oh, now I feel sorry for Catweasel
Message:
Help Baz, I'm going soft in the head.

Peace and lentils (TM suchabanana 2001)

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:08:37 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: pool'lil kitten
Message:
Always being blammed for the evil in the world. I said it wasn't you, you boofhead, so why are you so pissed.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:40:11 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Caught in the crossfire
Message:
I'm ducking here, you two can fight it out.

Thought you'd feel honoured to be thought a Brit?

So you do live in a dunny in Alice Springs, though:)

Hey look mate, at least I got you off the banana boat, right? Can't blame people for trying to guess you out, I mean you are a bit of a wind-up, especially when more and more premies are coming clean about who they are, if only in private to a few individuals (like moi). Would it really spoil your fun if people knew?

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 22:52:43 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: what amuses me (on a good day)
Message:
Is the banana bais and c star's of this world's so very high opinion of themselves and their importance to either the cult of the world of the internet, in general that somehow justifies their vey high need for secrecy.
I think it's goofy (on a good day). The only obvious reason I see for people like this being anon is so they can act like major assholes on here.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 01:09:46 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: starflock@hotmail.com
To: Selene
Subject: Hello
Message:
Golly, Selene, I don't know what caused you to call me a 'major asshole,' but you certainly have a right to your opinion.

Thanks, Bazza, for your correspondence. I decided to drop by and was a little bit surprised to see this thread right off. I told you I expected to post with my real name, just didn't know when.

I'll go ahead and do it now. Why? Because I feel like there is every reason to do so, and not much good reason not to. People who don't know me -- almost everybody except those who have lived in the same communities as me -- might at least be reassured that I am a 'real person.' Those who do know me, well, I hope I am not flattering myself to say that they at least know I am nothing if not sincere, and am not by any means a malicious person.

This is really kind of spur of the moment and I must get back to work, so will just leave you all with my actual name for now. Joy knows me in person and she knows this is my real name, for those of you that are old timers here and know and trust Joy. (Hi Joy.)

For anyone who might be reading a post of mine for the first time: no, I'm not an ex-premie. Rather, I am a premie who feels that free and open expression is one of the most precious rights of a human life. I don't believe that Maharaji will hate me for this, but let's just say if he proves me wrong, then so be it. I believe in him and I believe he has something beautiful to offer to people -- and I believe that this sense that all the premies are under some mysterious 'gag order' can never so anything but HURT Maharaji. And thus I confess I am not here because of my criticisms as much as I am here because of my love for him.

I do have things I would like to say, just as many of you do -- things that I personally believe Maharaji will never even hear about through my mailing or e-mailing him personally. It is my strong belief that he has (albeit willingly and unwisely) insulated himself from such letters.

And besides, though there are a lot of things I don't like here, there is a lot that I really like a *lot* here.

And no, Selene, it's not that I thought I was too important give my true identity. It's just your average run-of-the-mill human fear and cowardice that has kept me from giving my real name all along.

So, until later --

Cheers
Michele (aka banana bai aka Christian Star)

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:58:15 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Hello, I remember you from IHQ
Message:
I am Katie Masters-Darling, formerly Katie Jones (at IHQ 1975-6) then Katie Baier. I am not really anon, just use Disculta because I posted some stuff about my family... it's a long story. My journey is in there somewhere under some combination of these names.

I was a translator in the typing pool when you were - I think - transcribing. I remember you as very beautiful. I was miserable, just transferred from South America to IHQ and having a hard time with it. I'm originally English, now live near San Francisco.

I am all for everyone having the space to express themselves here, and I welcome you and I'm glad you're here. I think I responded to you somewhere below when you were a christian (;––) ).

Much love to you and welcome,

Katie

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:10:19 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Hello, I remember you from IHQ
Message:
Thanks, Katie!

Of course I do remember you. Thanks for your fond memories too. I know we were not around one another much, but all my impression of you was as quite charming.

I'm trying to rush off, but I'll bet you can relate when I say that it is incredibly difficult to rush off from here! I am really wanting to listen to Maharaji right now -- haven't heard him for days, and I am very thirsty for his particular brand of refreshment!

I hope you (and anyone else here) won't feel slighted if I ever don't respond to a post directed to me. If that happens, it is not because I am ignoring you but because I probably just didn't see it yet. I am mentioning this now because I very definitely almost didn't see your post -- and thus far I never see one-tenth of the posts here, there are so very many I don't know if I will ever be able to keep up, but am hoping that in time I will learn a certain pattern or rhythm that will work where I can at least keep up with any current conversations!

Thanks again for the very warm welcome. I appreciate that very much.

Cheers

Michele (not an ex)

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:52:03 (GMT)
From: swami sucha banana
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: drop the 'banana' bit, saboteur thief. it's taken.
Message:
Dear Michele [Christian Star aka stinky bai],

Deradune aka Dehra Dhun is where the maha was born.

r.e. your name games: that was dishonourable and presumptuous of you - to come here and deliberately try to appropriate/distort someone else's handle. There was no excuse for that - unless you are simply bent on venal sabotage, royally pissing off other people [and incurring some bad karma], deliberately creating confusion, and consequently putting yourself on a well-deserved firing line here bigtime. A real bai with good [and not lowly] intentions would not have pulled that trick. (Also, bais don't have bananas - but swamis do.)

I've put a lot of time developing the banana persona, [which was conferred on me almost 30 years ago - not appropriated]. You are clearly not a member of the honourable banana family.

Any more invasive maha saboteur tricks outa you affecting this site or me -- and your own stupid karma is going to run you over here, lil' premie toots. Have you ever been to a marshmallow roast? We have 'em here sometimes, you know - exes kickin' back with some good brews and roastin' and slowly turnin' a facetious obnoxious premie marshmallow over the fire of truth, then rakin' it over the coals - watchin' it burn and sizzle as the inside goo of cult concepts and other puss literally drips out of it. Envision baigones...

If you can behave yourself now, Michele, some people might be willing to let baigones be baigones. But, first, an apology is order.

swirled peas,

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:14:58 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: swami sucha banana
Subject: drop the 'banana' bit, saboteur thief. it's taken.
Message:
Oh, but I'll bet I like bananas more than you, and no, I won't apologize because if indeed I was plagiarizing you, don't you know that copying someone is the 'highest form of flattery.'

Letting baigones be baigones? I love it. LOL. You remind me of Swami Beyondananda.

But anyhow, it would be silly to use the banana bai name anymore when I'm using my own, so here ya go:

(throws sucha swami a banana)

Cheers

Michele (not an ex)

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:44:59 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Hello , and apologies for thinking ....
Message:
....you might be Jim Heller taking the piss .

I do worry about your surname though , is it just synchronicity?

I guess you've been blessed with that particular proximity to the divine that manifests itself , mysteriously , in our very names .

Just think , one slip of the recording angel's quill pen & you could have been 'Hardware ' , but no they always get it right ,
Dehradune suits you better .

Could you be M . Dettmers taking the piss ?

I hope so , rip those buttons off your shirt boy .

Whoever you are , good luck , you're an entertainment .

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:37:58 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Hello , and apologies for thinking ....
Message:
Hello B-liner.

Okay, it's hard for me to type in sound bytes but I'm gonna try to keep this short. I am a real person and this is my real name (and as Bazza pointed out, you can read my story of coming to Knowledge and see a picture of my middle-aged face on Enjoying Life Website unless they have some rule that people who post on this website get pulled).

I have had a series of last names: Mitchell then Michael then Reel and now Deradune, the last being for the past six years. I took the name on legally after my divorce from Mr. Reel in 1996 when I was very serious about film acting and to get a SAG card you have to use a stage name that no other actor has (phonetically speaking). I didn't want Mitchell and Michael and Reel were already being used by two other Micheles, so I needed a new name. Preferring not to have two names, one for real life and one for film, I decided to change my name legally to something that I liked and that no other actress would have. I always wished I could have gone to see Maharaji in Dehradun when he was a kid -- or gone to visit Dehradun at all. I hear it is famous for its deep blue skies and lightning storms -- and (at least in the past) very honest and kind people. I changed the spelling so Americans wouldn't call me 'Dera Done' rhyming with 'Hava Bun.'

And because, for me, it is a very delightful thing that every time I see or hear my own last name, it reminds me of Maharaji. I love to remember him, and it's one of the big reasons I love it here. There is constant remembrance of Maharaji here -- even though a lot of it is negative (and some of it even, in my opinion, patently untrue). People even get upset if you post about something other than Maharaji! Pretty cool.

Cheers

Michele (not an ex)

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:52:21 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Am all tears now.
Message:
shall we have a shower together then.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:57:56 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Am all tears now.
Message:
'shall we have a shower together then.'

Well, Salam, I don't know. Are you cute? =)

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 07:11:13 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Yes
Message:
That's what mum says anyway.

I thought you were at work.

Am gonna be nice now, OK.

Tell me, what brings you here? This is an ex-premie forum. An anti-haraji place. As you see, we can sniff premies pretty quick.

I must say that you have balls (execuse the expression), and I was thinking that you'll not be back. But here you are, all victorious telling us who you are.

You planning to live the rest of your life as a premie mooron or are you looking for answers? Don't ask me, sorry. But there are many here that will love to talk to you as you will find out. Oh just a friendly gesture, don't preach, pisses the crowed real bad including me.

Well, I leave you to it and I hope from the bottomest of my heart that you find satisfaction in what your doing,

Oh one last thing. Rawat sucks.

Cheers and be happy,

Salam

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:27:38 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Why I am here
Message:
Why am I here. Well, if you don't mind reading my post of a few minutes ago (the post right under where la-ex says I'm his #1 pick) in the very long P.S. section I think you will get a very good idea of why I am here.

But that is not the only reason I am here, so I will add this, that I feel drawn here. I feel good being here.

I have been rejected, inspected, detected, infected, neglected and dissected more times in my life than I care to remember. But every cloud has a silver lining, and mine is this, that people throwing rotten tomatoes at me here, for the most part, does not bum me out. 'I've been thrown out of better gin joints' and all that.

I feel that I 'belong' here -- even though I am not an ex. And hopefully I will learn how to be here and be me without causing anyone too much irritation. I am not here with the intention of picking on anyone, so maybe that will help.

I really appreciate the fact that one can have an honest-to-God conversation here with freedom of speech. Like most other Americans, I consider it not to be a privilege, but a God-given right. Elan Vital has pissed me off big-time by making me feel like I have to mute my own voice in order to be a 'good premie.'

I have defected from Elan Vital, yes; from Maharaji and Visions International, no.

cheers

Michele (not an ex)

P.S. Oooo, I'll bet you're butt ugly with a face 'only a mother could love.' (Just kidding!!! LOL.)

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 13:27:20 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Who told I was ugly
Message:
This is classified.

Well me mate. It's impossible to read every post here, so I missed it. But you sound like a nice chap (what's the female for chap).

Don't take it personally when you get rotten tomatos thrown at you, it is where you come from that what we aim for. As to your belifes, this is really your life and am not in the buisiness of changing peoples head or telling them what to do.

Personally I hate the gugu and dislike him. I dislike what he preaches, the way he talks, his face. I think he has no clue what he's talking about and he is doing much harm than good in this world. Of course you don't think so. you probably think that k is good, I think it's bullshit and does not mean nothing. This site is not only the forum, its huge and has a lot of information on it. The only way you can see the big picture is by spending time reading it.

So I really wish you good luck and remember there is no harm in telling it the way it is. If I like someone I tell him/her, if I don't, then I use the fuck you technique as you probably noticed. bit crude, but that's me,

Be good to yourself should be the first technique

Salam.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 04:11:08 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: OK I have a question for you Michele re ELK
Message:
Looking back at the 'Lives' entry you have on Enjoying Life:

Michele Deradune

Do you now still feel the same way as when you wrote that? I ask because I still have stuff there (on ELK) I sent in before I exited, and frankly am embarrassed by it. Has your opinion of m. changed since then at all?

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:07:50 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: OK I have a question for you Michele re ELK
Message:
Ah. Yes. I still feel that way. The only footnote I would add is that when I say 'I do whatever I can to contribute' this no longer includes doing service at the local hall or attending meetings with instructors. (Though I would make an exceptions for a few instructors, most notably Rajaji, Charnanand and Belkis.)

I used to contribute anywhere and everywhere I could; now, I contribute only where I really feel a good feeling about that particular contribution in every respect.

I don't feel good about the idea of training people to talk about Knowledge so I have not contributed to that. If the experience of Knowledge were not real, then we'd need a training. It's real. The training, to me, is artificial and a hindrance to propagation by its very existence. It makes Maharaji's mission look like a cult. I refuse to do anything again that will contribute to making Maharaji's mission look like a cult.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:55:51 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: You're happy helping Charnanand?
Message:
Did you miss the accounts of his sexual activities while we all believed he was a celibate saint?

BTW Everything Maharaji does makes him look like a cult leader, so you're not making any difference:-)

John.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:27:41 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Charnanand has helped me
Message:
JHB,

No, I didn't read about him having sex and I don't think any less of him if he has had sex. That is silly. Look. I think the people who get upset about other people having (adult consentual) sex are either jealous or repressed. And his sex life (or anyone else's for that matter other than my own) is of no interest to me.

Michele (who is not an ex)

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:41:52 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Charnanand has helped me?
Message:
Hello Michele,

I've been trying to understand why you have come here and have read most of your posts. You said you feel like you belong here. Why? You're not going to get satsang here and I am not going to listen to it from you, and I'm pretty sure no one else is. This purpose of this forum is to inform and support people out of the cult. It is a cult, you know. As far as EV/Maharaji are concerned, they are one and the same. I worked closed enough with Maharaji to know that PAMs don't do much of anything without his ''agya.'' That's the truth.

Concerning what you said about Charanand. Well, I disagree completely. What Charanand was doing was abusing his power over women premies. He was always put up to premies as a great saint, even without the Mahatma title. He was preaching to ashram premies about surrendering their lives to goomraji totally, premies practically worshipped him. Then he'd get up on stage at a big program and give satsang and sing hindu devotional songs. How can you blind yourself to such hypocrisy? The ratface knew what he was up to. The ratface was abusing his power by sexually using premie women too.

I'll tell you how Charanand ''helped'' me. I became pregnant by my premie ''boyfriend'' in the late 70s. My ''boyfriend'' has been a close friend of Charanand for years. I refused to have an abortion and went forward with pre-natal care. Everyone in my community in Hartford know I was pregnant. Then the ''boyfriend'' asked for Charanand's advice. He was told that he should at all costs surrender to goomraji and move into the ashram. So the ''boyfriend'' lied to me; used his family's wealth and power, and Charanand's advice to betray me by promising to marry me if I had the abortion. So I did. Two weeks later the ''boyfriend'' left a note on my apartment door telling me our relationship was over.

When I discovered recently that Charanand was fucking around during the time I was coerced into aborting my child I became furious and that betrayal was more real than you can imagine.

Charanand's a realized asshole, that's about it.

I am still interested in why you came here. As I said, satsang is not happening here.

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:05:08 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: You cheap, lying whore
Message:
Must you distort and misrepresent everything? Don't you have a shred or honesty in your middle aged body? Has the guru stripped you of even the most basic decency?

No, I didn't read about him having sex and I don't think any less of him if he has had sex. That is silly. Look. I think the people who get upset about other people having (adult consentual) sex are either jealous or repressed. And his sex life (or anyone else's for that matter other than my own) is of no interest to me.

Of course, no one here gives a flying fuck who's doin' whom. The whole point of that discussion is the HYPOCRISY AND DECEIT in preaching and pretending celibacy while all the time charanand was fucking his brains out. The consensuality of it can also be called into question as the power levels between the two people was vastly unequal and could have been mentally and/or emotionally coercive, as in RAPE.

But you know all this, you're just being a cunt.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:15:55 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: It doesn't reflect on his integrity as a person?
Message:
When he was having affairs while telling ashram premies the importance of celibacy? You pick your friends well....

John.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:10:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Were you always so superficial, Michele?
Message:
Your indifference to the amazing hypocrisy you're defending, in this case, supposedly star renunciate Mahatma Gurucharanand's secret sex life, is disgusting. You've stripped away all the overtones, the harmonics of the situation that would be blatant to even a casual observer. I'd say 'do you need it spelled out to you?' but what's the point? You know what you're doing. Fuck off.

I sweated and worried myself throughout many years of celibacy because liars like Mahatma Gurucharanand urged me to.

There, in spite of myself I a) talked with you and b) stated the obvious. I don't hate premies; I do hate premieness.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:47:16 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Were you always so superficial, Michele?
Message:
Why am I always superficial? Sorry, I can't answer that because I don't see myself as superficial. But you are entitled to your opinion, and it is noted.

Okay, so now I'm learning something new. This is the very first (ever) negative story I have (ever) heard about Charnanand. Not bad for someone for so famous, but never mind that ... I'm sorry you gave up sex because the big bad bald man told you not to. I really am. But I also think you were making your own decision to follow his advice and that you went against your own strongest feelings. Otherwise you wouldn't have all the resentment.

Me, I was celibate for the three years I was in the ashram and I did not suffer about it, even though it was not entirely a 'snap' for me either. And I definitely have never regreted those three years of celibacy. The 'free love' world I experience before and after ashram life was pretty active. But I'd give up sex today if I could live in an ashram again. I loved living in the ashram. I love sex too, but I love living in the ashram even more. What I cannot understand is why the fuck so many people here lived in ways and places they didn't want 'in the name of Maharaji.' I guess they thought they had to suffer to get to heaven or something. That was never my take on it, and I left the ashram within weeks of being unhappy there, and didn't look back -- for many, many years.

Go figure.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 22:56:02 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Michelle,with all due respect what kind of sex are
Message:
You having?

No, you don't have to answer, and I won't make any banana/sex jokes either.(sometimes they're just un-a-peel-ing. But no matter how you slice it, this statement is one of the wierder ones from the bunch you've made. All puns intended)
OK
You say that you love sex, but love the ashram more.
In fact you'd give up sex to be back in the ashram.
However, you moved out of the ashram and the 'lifetime commitment' to the living perfect master, because you were unhappy there.
You never looked back, and had no regrets....(hmmm, doesn't sound like the state of mind I'd be feeling if I just left the best place in the whole world, but anyway, I'm not you...)

So, let me get this right...

You were unhappy in the ashram, and left.
But you'd like to go back, and it would be better than sex...

Just wondering, and I'm not being nosy...but you say that you would give up sex to live in an ashram, which you were unhappy in.

(I'm not trying to probe too much, but 'you gettin any?')

I beg to differ....I've renewed an old relationship lately, and the thought of giving that up, to give it all to 'you know who', is more than I could ever handle...

Are you sure that you're not 'mythologizing' the 'good old days' in the 'shram?

I agree that you are here for therapy, and it's helping you.
We all are, IMO,and that's what makes it so lively and energizing, as opposed to the ELK and Visions sites...

But let's be honest about some of these statements, and examine everything.

Sincerely,
la-ex

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 01:35:03 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Some premies had better sex in ashrams than out NT
Message:
l
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:21:40 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Were you always so superficial, Michele?
Message:
' But I'd give up sex today if I could live in an ashram again. I loved living in the ashram.'

I also loved living in the ashram.
When I was kicked out of the ashram onto the street, I still continued the same way of life because that's how I decided to dedicate myself.
If I still belived that maharaji is who he said he was I would still be living the same way following whatever instruction he gave.

The fact is he is a lying, paedophille protector, which is really hard to accept for a devoted premie, but nevertheless true.
His silence over the years speaks mountains and the premies that still follow him are of the same ilk.

Still ethics don't count!!! Do they.

Don't waste any more of your life. You can have the 'ashram-vibe' by living a respectfull life.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:38:50 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: That was not very mainstream...
Message:
Of course it helped you having a greater sense of individuality than average, but this was not something which was encouraged.
Mind and individual choice were the worst bad guys!
Premies who were younger or more insecure definitely did not develop a healthy sense of judgement and individual choice.
A lot of people became premies because they felt that their own judgement was lacking to reach the highest goals of life themselves( why on earth would one otherwise accept a guru??)
By surrendering the reins of ones life the guru does become fully responsable for all instruction given in his name.
Or do you think you had some special sense of discrimination where to take things seriously and where not?
If so , nice for you, but why did rawat give knowledge to everybody who did not?

This is not a mistake of the distant past. Children are invited in Nottingham!!

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 08:01:16 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: I'll say it in simple words
Message:
Listen carefully. Many of us moved into the ashrams because we believed the guru when he said he was the incarnation of God on earth and that our purpose in life was to dedicate our lives to him. We didn't do it because we thought it would be an easy life. In fact the guru even said many times that it would be hard.

Now is that clear enough?

OK, so who's fault was it that we believed the guru? Well, partly ours of course. But if hadn't believed him we wouldn't have been premies in the first place.

But you can't tell me he's totally innocent in the matter. What can he expect when he goes around yelling about how powerful he is, how unworthy we are, how turning away from him is simply not an option we could consider? Don't you have any criticism at all on the way the guru behaved in those heavy devotional years?

John.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 07:03:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: You're either a dunce or posing as one
Message:
I've got nothing further to say to you.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:29:31 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: is hard to explain Michele
Message:
Although you were the topic since I was responding to Bazza's post, I believe I was making general statements (not always a good thing to do) based on some past experiences, as to why some pick anonymity here to enable them to act out.

Thanks for opening up a bit more. Sometimes it's hard to trust after being fucked with so much. As I said, long story hard to explain.
thank you Michele. Your name sounds familiar for some reason.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:09:19 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Thanks, Selene
Message:
I think you explained that rather well.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:26:26 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: So, Michelle is Banana bai
Message:
Interesting. Thanks for your honesty.

Reconsider what you call 'loving your master', the one who jailed you and made you become a cult member.

I wish you real freedom.

SB/Silvia

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 21:56:53 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: So, Michelle was stinky bai (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:23:55 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Hello Silvia
Message:
Hmmm...well, I don't really like to use the word Master. That word has connotations to me personally that do not reflect my personal relationship with Maharaji.

He never jailed me or forced me to join anything. I never did anything that wasn't of my free will.

Maharaji opened my eyes to what is true and clean and pure, and he gave me a way to practice going to that place inside that is true and clean and pure.

One time he said his problems are so huge that most people would jump off a bridge if they had his problems. I believe him. And I appreciate it very much that he continues to help me and others who benefit from his help. He gets a lot of joy from it, but I know his life is not a bowl of cherries. I believe he has made much more effort for me than I have ever made for him.

Oh, and congratulations on not being a chicken. I'm glad your Mama didn't raise chickens. =) Even if we don't see eye-to-eye.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 11:57:08 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: HE SAID HE IS YOURS
Message:
denial is not a river somewhere....

Get sincere, would you?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:49:26 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: HE SAID HE IS YOURS
Message:
Say what? I'm not following you.

'He said he is yours.' I don't know what you are referring to. ???

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:02:15 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Yeah,act stupid now
Message:
What part you don't understand? He is yours and you are his, common! Wake up. Is all a dream. Life is much more beautiful!

Loser!

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:29:41 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Well done Michelle
Message:
Doesn't it feel better to just be 'you'? No matter what your take is on maharaji, I think you'll find now that people will treat you a little differently.

Which doesn't mean its all hugs and kisses from now on, just that you've earned a basic respect by having the guts to stand behind your beliefs, unlike SOME I could mention!

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:29:23 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Well done
Message:
Thanks, Bazza. Well, I was always me. Just not quite so exposed. Does it feel good? Mmmmm...I don't know...it has felt good to post here before giving my real name...but it feels right, and that's good enough for me.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:14:19 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: C'mon Michelle, who's your next pick for sad-guru?
Message:
Dear Michelle,(aka shri mata banana bai, Christian Star etc.)

Are you a brit, or an american?

I seem to remember your name from somewhere in the past....Denver, DC, NYC,Miami, LA ....

BTW, still waiting for your first round draft choice...

(Actually I've come to the conclusion that YOU would make a better choice than m to be the master.
You're honest, fun, lively, intelligent, willing to take on the issues head-on...)

Now M.....I don't know...a dreamer and escapist,with a problem with telling the truth, staying sober,staying faithful to wife and family...not a good choice, IMO...
He's a good pilot, but I don't see much more than that...

But you, I think I'd vote for you over m...

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 07:05:30 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: C'mon Michelle, who's your next pick for sad-guru?
Message:
Hi, la. Oh, so I am a Mata now too! Well, actually I am a mata. One son, and proud of him.

Am from the U.S. and have never had the pleasure of visiting England (except onboard a Jumbo Jet on the way to India in '72). I have 'strange' speech patterns because I was brought up, at different years, by women from Sweden, Germany, Norway, Southern California and East Texas, and a close friend and roommate in junior high through adulthood (we even received Knowledge sitting next to one another) who was a Brit that spoke with 'aristocratic' style accent. I picked up a little bit from everyone I think.

I'm not in the 'sad-guru pickin'' business, la. LOL. You crack me up.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 18:46:14 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Michelle,you are now my official #1 pick...
Message:
Congratulations, you get'em girl!

Now I find out you're a mother as well.
And humble, not wanting to second guess your master.(or maybe not wanting to be on the next bongo list, and thereby give up the possibility of getting a good seat, or any seat, at the next program?)

A humble mother with many varied life experiences, probably can relate well to people....I sense a strong sense of social justice as well...

That's it!
You're the person you were describing to be the next master...
You've made it, in my book...
If we need an 'interim master', with all these turbulent revelations surfacing, you're my pick, yes sir...

Michelle in, M out!

BTW,if any of this does come to pass, would you dress up in the Krishna costume and wear the crown for us....just once?

la-ex

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:49:18 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Michelle,you are now my official #1 pick...
Message:
Oh my God, la, I never do know what you're going to come up with next!! No, if nominated I will not run; if elected, I shall not serve. Just being me is challenge enough!

No, I feel Maharaji is doing a SUPERB job of being Satguru. I'm not saying he's perfect, but I am saying he's perfect enough for me. And the whole point has never been about him being perfect. It was my understanding from the beginning that he was not perfect. The whole point is and always was the same thing: that he reveals perfection -- not only by giving 'Knowledge' to people but also with his talks.

I'll say this too, and it's the honest-to-God truth. No matter who the next Guru is, should I be alive to hear that person, I really do not believe anyone could give better talks than Maharaji and it would be damn hard even for a True Guru to come close.

Maharaji Rocks!! =) (That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.)

P.S. It's weird, but I have been double to triple more productive at work in the last couple days than I have been in a year. It took talking to a close friend before I could figure out for sure why, and I think I know now: I was suffering depression on a very deep level for over a year. This depression was basically a result of banging my head against Elan Vital's walls and trying like heck to communicate to, for instance, people in EV's PR team that it is a MAJOR public relations problem when you tell premies that they should say anything about Maharaji on their own websites. This is only one thing that happened, but it was a biggie for me. I wrote some very nice things, from personal experience and appreciation about my life and Maharaji, and I offered it to Elan Vital to see. Do you know what happened? A PR person informed me that he didn't even want to read what I had written -- because the whole point was that I shouldn't be representing Maharaji in any fashion on the Internet. HE DIDN'T EVEN READ WHAT I WROTE. I tangled with more than that with Elan Vital. My dad always taught me, 'Michele, if you want to make positive changes, I have learned it is always better to do it from within the system.' Well, I tried that and the way the process is set up in Elan Vital, change was not possible -- a person had to be wrong; the process itself was not questioned. Anyhow, I closed my account on First Class about a year ago as a direct result of that and another major frustration I don't want to go into right now and don't really need to go into (it's really not even interesting). But the point is, I love serving Maharaji and when he talks about wanting propagation I don't want anything more than to help propagation. Can you imagine my frustration to live in a place where the very organization within which I was serving him is set up in such a way that absolutely and positively PREVENTS propagation? It's like saying, 'Hand the little girl a glass of water. She's thirsty.' And every time I try, there is this 5-inch thick glass wall that allows me to see that the little girl is there, but I cannot hand her the water through the damned glass. To me, Elan Vital and the way it works is the damned glass, and that has been a source of depression for me on a very deep level. Posting on here -- finally saying, okay, fuck Elan Vital, they cannot hold me down forever. It's a very strange thing for me. I guess most of you can understand that. Because for me, I don't 'blame' Maharaji like many people here do. Who do I blame? Well, I don't really blame anyone in particular because I'm not close enough to the 'top echelon' to even know who or what is there preventing Elan Vital from getting real. But I do know how to just be me. In fact, I'm better at being me than I am at anything else, and at least I am FREE TO BE ME here on -- ironically enough -- an ex-premie website, even though I am most emphatically NOT an ex-premie.

Okay. Now I get to go listen to a Maharaji video!!

Cheers
Michele Deradune (not an ex)

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 04:56:22 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: oops -- typo correction for post directly above
Message:
When I said it is a major problem to tell premies they should say anything about Mahaharaji on their own websites, I MEANT to say:

It is a major problem when Elan Vital tells premies they should NOT say anything about Maharaji on their own websites.

One clarification here. The national head of PR told me that if I hadn't asked, I would not have been told not to do it. However, this to me is not a right answer. Also, it is ignoring the fact that I actually had no intention of asking permission to say something about Maharaji on my own website. I just did it, and I was happy about it. I sent the link to several premies. One premie, who always wants to make sure she is following the rules, suggested to me that I pass it by PR. So I said okay. I got thrown into that trap either way. It's not good enough to say, 'Well, it would have been all right if you had not asked our opinion.' They should be SMART enough and want to help propagation enough not to totally alienate people who have done NOTHING wrong.

Okay, okay. Now I'm gonna go hear Maharaji!!

Michele (not an ex)

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 01:28:54 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Hello, Michele. Any friend of Joy's is a potential
Message:
friend of mine. Your truthfulness and honesty are welcome here. Not so many months ago I felt about Mr Rawat the same way you do and I still sometimes feel love for ''Miragey.'' I call him that because I do not know Mr Rawat eventhough he was my Master for 28 years. I was in love with a public relations mirage on video or as a speck on a stage.

I walked away from Rawat before I knew all the behind the scenes dirt. I knew a lot of it before but not the hit and run which still upsets me because of his callousness towards the taking of a human life the most precious gift. But it was only a stupid Indian peasant and his family was much better off with the $10,000 pay off or whatever it was.

I walked away from Rawat because I was having a better experience in meditation than going to see a speck on the stage or even worse a video and because I became ashamed of the revisionist lies he puts on his web sites. I prefer to be open and not deceitful as I was supposed to be when I propagate. I think meditation is fantastic and I love doing it but I can't tell people to go to him to get it as I am not proud of him anymore. I prefer to show them myself.

He is a very bad meditation teacher too. All he teaches is to focus on the Master. Gurus are for peasants with no self-motivation or any real beauty or romantic love in their lives. That love that you feel for him does not have to turn into hate. You can still feel it but see it for what it is - a mirage that you don't really need especially if you have to defend him because he has been careless and irresponsible.

Anyway, welcome and feel free to email me whenever you wish.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:56:10 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Hi PatC . . . but you might wanna wait
Message:
...and see if Joy even likes me, LOL. I know she is pretty disgusted about my pro-Maharaji stance. Aside from that, though, I think she and I always liked one another. At least, I know I enjoyed her -- and her gulab jamuns, too! ;)

Okay...I have a few questions for you:

About the alleged hit and run. Are you saying you believe the victim and/or the victim's family would have benefited more if Maharaji had gotten into some tangle with the court system there? I don't equate one's wanting to avoid legal tangles as being synonymous with being uncaring. I feel it's a jumping to conclusions to say that. I posted earlier about this in more detail. I guess I will have to start keeping copies of my posts so that when the same things come up again and again I can just re-post what I have already written. Give me a little time and I'll try to get that together...I know I can't always expect that someone would have read my earlier posts on topics. But I don't believe, if it happened, that it was done maliciously, but was a real accident. Someone did give the family money. It is unfortunate and very sad, but no one could bring back the life of that individual. A real hit and run doesn't even give money to a victim's family.

I don't like reading the less-than-complete histories on the EV website either, but I do very much enjoy listening to Maharaji speak at events on video or via satellite. I find him incredibly inspiring. However I may not tell any new people about him for awhile. Right now doesn't seem like a good time. Things seem very out of synch and confusing for a new person. They read the history on the EV website and hear one thing, and come here and read another thing (including -- I'm sorry, but it's true -- a lot of yellow journalism), and then at local halls there are those damn trainings which do indeed (to me) seem incredibly cult-like. There is an awful lot of chaffe to separate from wheat. And that's why I'm even spending time here on this website. Because things have gotten very strange.

Yet still I benefit from his guidance, and still I benefit from practicing Knowledge every day.

You say you prefer to 'show them myself' in regard to Knowledge. I find that very odd, because to me the techniques of Knowledge are not what it's all about. For me it is a connection that is made between me, Maharaji and Knowledge. The techniques are little more than incidental.

I love Maharaji as my Guru. Yet I am not a peasant, I am self-motivated and there is real beauty and romantic love in my life. By the way, doesn't 'peasant' mean someone who lives off of working in agriculture? What do you mean when you say peasant? Well, only answer if you feel like it. There are plenty of others here to throw the tomatoes if you're not in the mood. =)

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 19:18:00 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Of course I still like you, Michele
Message:
I don't discriminate against my friends if they are still premies. I've maintained some good premie friends all these years (Bertha, for example). I just don't bring the subject of M up except in the most polite of manners, and then the friendship can stay intact. I appreciate people for who they are, not what they do or don't believe in, even if it is my ex-guru.

I'm glad you're here and can air your doubts here, even though you're not a confirmed ex. Hopefully people will remain civil with you and not bully you or call you names. Ignore it if they do and you'll get a lot more respect, don't sink to that level.

Take care, and hope to read more of your posts.
Love,
Joy

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:03:48 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Ahhhh, thanks Joy
Message:
That was a very sweet post. Thanks. ;) I wrote a little more tonight (above a couple posts) but won't write much more tonight.

hugs,

Michele (not an ex)

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 08:02:42 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Hi Michele - all good questions deserving sincere
Message:
answers from me.

You asked: ''Are you saying you believe the victim and/or the victim's family would have benefited more if Maharaji had gotten into some tangle with the court system there?''

No I don't believe that. I think Mr Rawat would have benefited by being more modest, brave, honest and remorseful. The killing was an accident. It is the lying and cover-up which bothers me.

You ask: ''By the way, doesn't 'peasant' mean someone who lives off of working in agriculture? What do you mean when you say peasant?''

That's exactly what I mean by a peasant - a hardworking person, the salt of the earth who has to get up at four to milk the cows and does not have time to meditate. The Indian premies in South Africa are not exactly peasants but they are working class and don't have time to meditate. Meditation for them means putting a tilak on M's pic and a new mala and singing arti. I mean a nobody whose life is nevertheless just as precious as a wealthy Indian guru's is.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:52:12 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Hi Michele - all good questions deserving sincere
Message:
Hi PatC,

Thanks for your responses. It will take me a while to absorb a lot of information I am hearing here for the first time.

Take care,

Michele (not an ex)

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 09:33:40 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Hi Michele - I just read your PS to la-ex about EV
Message:
and realized that you were one of the people who, like me, ended up by having battles with EV during the whole of 2000. There are a lot of us. In San Francisco there is a renegade group of premies who have satellite and video shows in private houses and have old-fashioned satsang. We all have one thing in common: we enjoy meditation and getting high.

Where I parted company with them and with EV and with M is that I am ashamed to propagate K to my friends because of M's complicity in the deceitful revsionism and secrecy of EV. Unlike you I feel that EV is a reflection of his managerial incompetence. It took me years to finally allow myself to see that.

In a thread above discussing the connection between M and K I wrote: ''There is a saying in the gurujism tradition that the guru can be a drunken buffoon with no yogic powers at all but the faith of the devotee will transform the drunken bum into god. That says it all. Gurujism is the religion of seeing god in the master and thereby seeing god in oneself.''

The fact is I do not know for sure whether he is a drunken bum or not as I have never lived with him. And there lies the crux of the matter. In the guru tradition you live with your guru in your village and he is like your neighbor. M is simply a speck on a stage to me or a carefully edited video persona. I don't need that. K works fine without him. And I feel cleaner now that I am out of the EV cult.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:44:39 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Hi Michele
Message:
Just when I thought it was okay to abandon the Forum for awhile, since the people I know who post here regularly didn't seem too active on it lately and it's been taken over by newcomers -- which is fine, nothing wrong there, it's just it made me feel I could stop reading SO much now and get on with my life -- then you show up!!

WELCOME Michele!! I haven't been following the Banana Bai posts too closely, but will in future (or if you are going to use your real name, all the better). This can be a fun place to hang out (but better watch out, any concepts about Maharaji will get blown out of the water).

The folks I know here very, very well for a very very long time are Joe, Richard, and TimG. The ones I know pretty well for a very very long time are Disculta (Katie Jones/Baier/Darling), PatC, Charles Sprague and Francesca (the last three from my San Francisco ashram days, the very end of my time in DLM, and Katie you probably remember from Denver). I can vouch for all of them as most truthful and sincere folks and some of the finest people walking the planet. So pay particular close attention to anything they may have to say.

So, Welcome, Michele! (Is it okay to tell folks your previous name from IHQ days so they can more easily identify you?)

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 07:13:06 (GMT)
From: Michelle Mitchell Michael
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Hi Michele
Message:
Hi Joy!

Okay. There it is -- my name from DLM and DUO days was Michelle Mitchell (not to be confused with another woman with the same exact name who was an instructor, I did tape transcription of Maharaji's satsangs -- talks). Joy helped me do that for a while, and that was fun. Later I was Michele Michael for about 7 years I guess, and then I was married for a while and at that time I was Michele Reel. Isn't it refreshing that men rarely change their names at all? LOL.

And yes, I remember Katie, very cute Brit girl/woman.

Ooooo, it's way past my bedtime. Thanks for the warm greeting.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 17:01:45 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: post@rmi.net
To: Michelle Mitchell Michael
Subject: Hi Michele
Message:
Michelle,

I certainly remember you doing transcriptions at IHQ mid-70's. I designed the publications up in my tower on the 7th floor. You transcribed, there was Peggy Hope, Cliff Bowden was editor, Joy did typesetting and I designed. Most likely you were also the receiver of neck massages as I used to do the rounds and work on the word processing 'sisters'.

I hope you are well.

Richard Rogers

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:58:18 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I remember you too
Message:
Hi Richard,

Yes, I remember you -- a little bit. Tall, brown hair, wire-rimmed glasses maybe? Do you remember Sandy Meadows? I was so sorry to learn he died of AIDS.

Michele (not an ex)

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 15:42:21 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Sandy
Message:
Yes, I worked with Sandy and knew he and Vicky later in Miami. Really good people.
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:48:18 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Richard,are Peggy and Cliff exes or prems now?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 03:40:32 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Don't know about Peggy, Cliff is not ex /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:04:56 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: you got it in one
Message:
That's very astute Selene. They're not worried about US knowing who they are, like we care anyway, but rather they don't want other premies in the community to i.d. them, for fear of losing their exalted status (read Service 'priveleges' and front-row seats)

Pretty sad state to be in, IMO, that they live happily in an environment which totally suppresses their basic rights to Free Speech and independent thought. But it's not a cult, though, is it?

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:36:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: exactly! and so true, like we care anyway :)
Message:
No never a cult. And Yes it is their fellow travelers on the road they worry about. My god imagine what would happen, here you are in charge of seating or , even, , publicity!! and discovered to have been posting on here withOUT directions to do so! Would be time to rewrite the CV I imagine.
Only reason I care has been stated beautifully by Lesley. These people can and have been very manipulating and hurtful, hiding behind the safety of a fake IP, a fake name the whole bit.
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 22:29:59 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Lesley
Subject: My dear, Lesley, I wholeheartedly agree with you
Message:
All the anonymous PWKs freaked me out at one time too and I was accused of paranoia by the oldtimers here but I also know of at least one other person who was intimidated off the forum by the Pussweasel's piss.

I no longer feel intimidated by any cultist up to and including the secret cabal of PAMs and his High Muckety-Muck himself and as a result I have started feeling kindly towards them as long as they are not cruel.

But their anonymous deceit and snideness is nauseating. Thanks for being so clear and honest and coming out completely. I wish you everything of the best and just love having you here.

I personally think you would be doing good not harm to post the Pussy's surname.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:16:10 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: My dear, Lesley, I wholeheartedly agree with you
Message:
I'm new here, and so am perhaps not yet entitled to an opinion on this issue. And I certainly feel using anonimity to get away with cruelty is horrible, and a corruption of anon to boot.

But as someone who feels his life was saved by AA, I'm very respectful of anon. It may be true here, too, for some, premie or ex, that anon is what lets them feel comfortable enough to come here. And, while I don't like everything I find here, it's undeniable, IMO, that this forum facilitates a lot of healing.

So let's do what we can to combat 'Weasels', prem or ex; but let's at least think about 'outing' people as a last resort.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:35:47 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: clh
Subject: Hi clh- WELCOME ABOARD nt
Message:
n
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:27:53 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: clh
Subject: clh, I started posting here at first anonymously
Message:
and it seems to help newbies take the plunge so I don't criticize anonymity. But agents provocateurs are another matter. If people want to talk sincerely that is one thing but when they have and agenda to disrupt it is another. Hopefully one day you will want to tell us more about yourself and you will, but all in your own good time when it feels right and comfortable for you. I know you are sincere.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 09:27:00 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: clh, I started posting here at first anonymously
Message:
PatC , hi there. If I seriously wanted to fuck with the forum I would have done so some time ago. Some X's reckon I'm a good example ofwhat to expect from premies(Who they think they might be kidding?). In the same vein I think the Forum often demonstrates what the opposite might be. X rated takes on a whole new meaning. Credibility is a real interesting phenomena and frankly it has to be earned. To pursue errant nonsense is really pointless. But then who am I to tell anyone here anything.I'm just going to crawl down into my fur lined pussy burrow and relax. AHHHHHH OHHHH AHHHHHHHHH............YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 04:50:16 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: clh, I started posting here at first anonymously
Message:
I agree about agent provacateurs, especially self appointed ones.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:31:05 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: agree completely
Message:
I hope people understand that I do support people feeling safe, when they are here and ok.
This issue will never be resolved I fear. I see the FA asking Lesley to email, when I remember the 'outing' of Shroomanada being rejoiced and praised. I'm not defending shroom he/she drove me up a wall, but well.... oh forget it, it's hopeless.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 22:15:46 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: forum5god@yahoo.com
To: Selene
Subject: Selene, What is the problem?
Message:
Selene,

Posting anonymously under one consistent name is not against forum rules.

Posting under different aliases deliberately intending to deceive IS against forum rules.

Outing someone who is not breaking forum rules, against their wishes, IS against forum rules.

Now, what was the problem? We can discuss this by email if you wish.

Forum Admin

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:46:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: my problem with policies in general
Message:
Implicit vs. Explicit could sum it up I guess. I am of the thinking if policies have to exist they should be explicit, or at least: they should be consistent regardless of who is doing the policy breaking,

OR they should be made to reflect that they are not all that set in stone. OK let's look a bit:

Posting anonymously under one consistent name is not against forum rules.
No it isnt' and I have no issue with it although it's simplistic. Doesn't say what they can do here while they are 'under one name' but I guess it's implicit they are not being disruptive.

Posting under different aliases deliberately intending to deceive IS against forum rules.
If you don't know how inconsitently that one is enforced than I have nothing to say.

Outing someone who is not breaking forum rules, against their wishes, IS against forum rules.
And now we have the problem I mentioned. when 'rob' who himself is a non entity 'outed' shroomananda I did not see any protest all I saw was good-at-yas.
As I said I was glad to see that shoom go back to the basement same as everyone. But did not see why in turn Leslie should get her hands slapped.

I seem to need to point these things out. Well if it bothers you I'm easy to block. Come in from 2 IP's and both are arizona based pretty hard to miss.

hope this was more than you wanted to know.
You can email me if you want.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:42:02 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: We're just trying to be flexible
Message:
There really isn't a problem, IMHO, just different circumstances needing a different approach.

The main reason we needed to talk with Lesley offline is that according to our data she was just plain wrong in thinking 'David' (we know who/where David is) was catweasel, and wanted to stop her before she pinned him with that notorious tag. We in no way 'slapped her hands' but were trying to prevent her from further embarrassment.

As far as I recollect - and you can check the archives - shroomananda outed himself, OK with a bit of trickery from Rob perhaps, but essentially he could have kept his cool and remained hidden.

Why would we want to block you? Your contributions are greatly appreciated by all and sundry, and you are perfectly entitled to disagree with the FAs and the policies without fear of censorship.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:04:39 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: diff problems needing diff approaches.
Message:
Flexible and policy to me, are a very hard mix. good luck. I would prefer to spell things out and stick to them no matter who or what involved but I have only had success in this in the systems I control and this place , it is different I agree.

IMO shroom did not out himself he only admitted after rob accused him, with yes a bit of the old rob trickery such as it is. (hi rob you are now exposed, I know who you are am sure of it)
Well, I do see how you see the diff in the two incidents.
But I don't see it the same way, I don't since I think Lesley was more sincere and direct in her approach and to me, that should not be a lesser thing than being 'clever' (uch)
But then again your hands-off approach has worked out fine in this case. I do not doubt that I have a lot to learn in this area and forgive me if I find it truly fascinating.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:42:05 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: The bottom line
Message:
Is that we're just trying to make this place work for everyone, obviously with a bias toward exes. Some ideas work, some don't. We can't please everybody and to run all decisions through a committee would be unworkable.
Still if there's more you want to say you can email us, we are always open to suggestions and other input.
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:28:59 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: ps to FA - oh yah the other stuff
Message:
the first points, no emergency but I did not get an answer from you about them hey you asked :}
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:58:42 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I'll try
Message:
I think the lack of explicit rules works more in our favor in the sense it gives us the flexibility to make a judgement call on situations as they arise. The last thing we want is government-type chapter and verse rules which people can quote back at us and drown the place in endless threads arguing about the semantics of 'the rules'.

This also covers your second point to some extent. Often people use another alias for humorous purposes, or when they have particularly sensitive information which needs to be posted anonymously (usually we get an email from them also). Other times we simply don't spot or can't identify the perpetrator of a multi-alias. Usually we will be more tolerant with exes than with premies, and frankly make no apologies for that.

Lastly, bear in mind that the forum averages a couple of hundred posts per day and the FAs do have day jobs too! Meaning we have to have a system which doesn't require we measure every suspect post or poster against explicit rules, and allows us to simply let things be when time is short.

Does this help any?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:18:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: try is all we can do
Message:
what was it?? who in what silly show said 'IF I RULED THE WORLD'
was it the lion in the Oz thing? I feel like that in a way oh well it is not meant to be harmful I trust you know that.
Can't say I won't bring this type of thing up again, it is a subject of much interest to me.
but I do understand that you do try.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 01:01:41 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: one answer might be just to ignore any post ..
Message:
that is obviously from a trouble-maker, not sincere, that doesn't interest you...that's my new resolution, anyway, just made it two seconds ago. Question is, can I keep to it? I notice PatC is still posting, shouldn't you be chopping a few veggies by now, Pat? It's hard to leave, isn't it?

Do you deliver to the UK? Nothing hot, obviously - that would be silly!

Cheerio!

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:00:12 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: another approach is to stop sleeping...
Message:
altogether - like being an ashram premie in the early days!
I wasn't up for it then, and I'm off to bed now. But it's worth considering for those with more stamina.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:50:54 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: ....except for when you dream that you're on FV
Message:
Yep, I went through about a week of dreaming that I was clicking on posts and reading messages and even writing replies. Then I deleted that program from my hard-drive as I prefer erotic dreams. Sweet dreams.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 23:32:23 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: but isn't the whole of life a dream anyway?
Message:
Answer: it's a dream when you hand over your thinking to the urug, but now I'm waking up and it's getting more real every day!

I got your email but I'm too tired to do anything except read a bit and say I'm having time off too - I was up til sunrise yesterday and I'm not getting any music done! I did record some beautiful blackbird song though.

I think I'm suffering new ex-premie burn-out, must go and re-charge (which may take some time.) Deborah and clh beware!

Have fun and don't forget the cooking! (I'll check your site for sure later.)

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 01:10:39 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: There have been some heavy guerilla attacks
Message:
by anonymous trolls all of which I got embroiled in and got egg on my face. It is best to ignore them.

PS it's my day off and I am actually about to leave and do something better than reading here. I know it's hard to believe that anything could be a much fun as FV. I am totally addicted and have fallen in love with over twenty people here and I've never even met them. Yes, we are meeting the wonderful people we knew all those years ago who brought their ideals of peace and love on earth and truth and honesty and open-ness and trust and sincerity.

Mean while back in Malibu the Rawat Mob are running the business as usual - by conspiracy and deceit.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:44:05 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: PatC and creativejani
Subject: There have been some heavy guerilla attacks
Message:
yes it IS the very best to ignore them I guess I still have some anger. But am so tired at the moment, I do not care about anything about a guru. gotta go catch up on sleep.
Thanks both of you.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:37:29 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: also fair's fair - good for goose, good for gander
Message:
Even if they are irritating cultists - that's what makes them irritating and one day - by his grace, by his mercy - they won't be and will trust us more if we stick with our own rules here and not change them to suit the latest revisionist bunch of baloney a la Rev Pimple Rawat.
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 22:38:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: PatC and Lesley
Subject: well 'they' (ahem) chased me off AG
Message:
Which may be a good thing for me. As to why they persist on this forum it's very simple, because 'they' can.

Lesley I have always enjoyed your posts, a LOT. Hope you can find some time and energy to post in the future. I do know how it gets.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 16:06:07 (GMT)
From: jim boeger
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: from a premie(still) who spent 4 months in jail in
Message:
this fight.i really think you would be better off meditating.
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 16:27:34 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: from an ex- premie(still) who spent 29 years in
Message:
m's cult - could you just explain
1. What you're doing here, you could be meditating now too.
2. When you say better off, do you mean a)financially or b)spiritually or c) other (please give details)As far as A) and B) above are concerned you couldn't be more wrong. I don't understand what you mean about being 4 months in jail 'in this fight' - do you mean you were in jail and spent 4 months on the internet out of boredom (what? the perfect place for 23 hour long meditations, I would have thought).

Oh, and one last point - didn't you hear, m doesn't teach meditation any more...Keep up, please.

I feel like I've just got out of jail myself, funnily enough, and after 27 years (29 altogether but I enjoyed the first 2) freedom tastes GOOD!

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 19:36:55 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Jani, I know Jim and he does not meditate
Message:
He spends most of his time masturbating. He has told me many a time that he cannot meditate and ends up masturbating instead.

Sorry, Jim, you asked for it with you unasked for and snide advice. Most of the PWKs I know don't meditate either. They prefer watching vidoes because it is easier than actually taking the time and effort to clean up the mind and be mentally healthy.

Why don't you tell these guys why you where put in prison? It was a bomb threat against premies in Miami wasn't it?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 10:58:44 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: The fifth technique
Message:
Pat:

He spends most of his time masturbating. He has told me many a time that he cannot meditate and ends up masturbating instead.

I thought that's what we were supposed to do. It's what I get for having a K review with Jagdeo...

--Scott

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:17:21 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I know
Message:
'They prefer watching vidoes because it is easier than actually taking the time and effort to clean up the mind and be mentally healthy.'

You have hit on something here that is fundamental.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 21:57:01 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: very fundamental
Message:
The 'cult-ure' in DLM/EV has never been much into meditation. There were some mahatmas (gyanyoganand) who did, but they implemented it too rigorous, impossible to catch up or keep up.
I think this was inherited from India, were a lot of premies did not come from a meditating tradition. It certainly was not getting better in the west. In the ordinary Joe Indian and western tradition the personality of Krishna, Jesus, a guru have always played the dominant role in worship.
I've been in some other groups, trainings and sessions where this was a non-issue, just let's do it!
(But the teacher in these instances of course did give the example)
By this fundamental flaw rawat was not a teacher from the very start, all the things which were spoken of were not even pursued.
this left a big opening for all the exesses occurring since then.
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 21:16:25 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Nobody is going to do what Maharaji suggests
Message:
certainly not long term anyway. It's unrealistic and he doesn't do it himself. I'd advise anyone who wants to try 'meditation' although I prefer to call it 'relaxation' to try just ten minutes and only do more if they feel like it.

All that sitting around for an hour feeling bored and frustrated, nobody is going to keep that up. OK fine if you get into it, then it can be for as long as you like but Maharaji's method turns it into a chore and we know how we feel about chores.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:25:39 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Hi Chris, and it is heartbreaking
Message:
For those of us who enjoy meditating to see how messed up other PWKs are because they haven't figured out that the guru can't help them where it really counts. I know he inspires some people but I don't need to be reminded over and over again. Gurus are for people without any self-motivation.

Haven't seen you here for a while. I hope you are well and happy.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:05:32 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: just occurred to me, do you think that there are..
Message:
more ex-premies meditating than there are'premies'? It's so true that it's far easier to sit in front of a video and think you're doing something than sit down and meditate. And really m encourages that, given the total focus on himself. Crazy or what?

Don't forget to check out the site I emailed you if you can!

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:19:10 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Maybe it is time to admit medit.. is bullshit?
Message:
Why pretend that there is some attainment possible?
Where is the evidence?
Why imagine premies are lazy?

'They prefer watching vidoes because it is easier than actually taking the time and effort to clean up the mind and be mentally healthy.' Pat C
You have hit on something here that is fundamental. says CD.

What in the world is this? a Typo?

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:54:42 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: checked email, thanks and
Message:
I will re-read your lovely long letter for which many thanks. Lots to talk about. I may even know your face from the 8 years I spent in UK till 76.

The whole focus of gurujism is the bhakti juju. How can anyone stand to hear the same nagging about it? It's for peasants and cultists. The are more real yogis (saints almost) right here on FV than in my PWK community.

Be well and happy. I will write you a long answer by email.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:32:41 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Hey Chris
Message:
Have you 'Ex' ited? Sorta sounds that way.

By coincidence, I tried to go to your site the other day (today as well) and it wasn't there. What happened to it?

Hope you are well.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 21:09:10 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hey
Message:
'By coincidence, I tried to go to your site the other day (today as well) and it wasn't there. What happened to it?'

Just one of the sites shut down when Northpoint DSL pulled the plug. It will be back one day but no need at the moment.
I haven't changed my views much. Just more interested in the guitar lately and busy paying some bills.

CD

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:36:09 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rolling Stone Article: 1st half
Message:
First half now online ...

Second half and a few pictures to come .....

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:34:55 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: You should have video clip now NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 19:31:20 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Levine,Hallowitz+Bernstein-jewish law firm, or?
Message:
some really funny guys..

My favorites:

Levine (author)-'The satsang drones on, one boneless monologue after another...'

Bob Hallowitz(Doctor Bob, from the Wash DC clinic with Dr.John Horton)-'I offered 20 peanuts to maharaji, by touching them to my forehead. Two didn't feel right, znd upon further examination, they turned out to be rotten...'

Larry Bernstein (divine architect)- 'has a mathematical formula to prove the existence of God, and a design for a toothbrush that has toothpaste in the handle...'

You just gotta love it....who needs to go to the movies with this kind of entertainment...

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 19:25:37 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel / everyone
Subject: Excellent! Excellent! This is like time travel!
Message:
There's nothing quite like primary source material! Having been in that scene, before and after Millennium, it is uncanny how many loony details the writer captured so well, just by a deadpan recitation.

Much I had forgotten, but this article brought it all back. What a hoot! Quite a disconnect from M's present modus operandi and the present EV, n'est ce pas?

The whole scenario seemed somewhat innocent then, wacky and messianic to be sure, but with a sincerity and cheerful incompetence, not too grim or beleagured.

Now? Forget it. Stepford Wives and Paranoia.

BTW, anyone know what became of architect Larry Bernstein mentioned in the article? I used to know him and his daughter Brenda. They landed on the Satpal side after the big HF split, but I lost track.

Wonderful work, J-M, this should open the eyes of many young'uns.

Can't wait for part 2.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 18:56:30 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rolling Stone Article: 1st half
Message:
OK, now you are back to 74
What about the focus on your hot story in 2001?
If you want to achieve your goal you must concentrate.
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:35:27 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: what's the point of criticising J-M? He's ..
Message:
doing alot. Better to get on and contribute in a positive manner, I'd say.
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:33:26 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: point
Message:
Yes, JM is one of the few people here that actually does something. But, do you really think the Rolling Stone article will uncover something? I am suprised you don't have your own copy of that issue. Do you even have a copy of 'Who is Guru Maharaji'?
JM must follow the press trail down to Barcelona to retain his credibility. It is now Monday. What is going on in France? Something must have happened.
Don't you know by now that the people in the 60s set out in the wrong direction with their idealism and since then we were set on the correct path by the Yuppies. The Yippies played a very small role.
But here you have the results. A great society with a great appetite for oil, electricity and MacDonalds food. And people also prefer recorded music to the real thing. Especially since the real thing may involve too much partying and god only knows a note may be sung off key or the musicians could turn up those amps too loud.
Luckily the Supreme Court put the nix on that evil M stuff. The other M stuff.
Now, relax and let the Bush dynasty guide you through the sea of consumption. Oh yes, what is that evil thing you are trying to get rid of? Does it look like a Coke bottle?

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:33:05 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Still the same thing
Message:
M expected at one airport, he lands somewhere else .....

Still trying to escape press. Why ???????????????????

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 21:16:54 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Still the same thing
Message:
'Still trying to escape press. Why ??????????????????? '

You are the detective. Eventually you will figure it out.
Is Inspector Clouseau helping you on the case yet?
Head down to Barcelona. Should be a fun trip.

By the way, I think the Richard Levine article is pretty good. Maybe you should try to track him down for an update.
A good historical perspective. Of course there are many views and stories from all angles. Levine is a good writer. So for the record, I don't have a problem with you posting the Rolling Stone article in fact I got a few laughs myself and a few recollections of the time.
Truth is stranger than fiction.
You must feel that way sometimes when you wake up.

Cheers,
CD

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 17:35:39 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rolling Stone Article: 1st half
Message:
Great stuff, JM. Thanks! Here are some of my favorite excerpts:

I walk over to three premies who are holding up papier mache heads of Popeye, Olive Oyl and Brutus on broomsticks. Washington, Franklin and Lincoln I can understand, I tell them, but why Popeye? 'Knowledge,' one of them answers, 'is the Ultimate Spinach.'

Other omens involve Kohoutek, which stands for KO Houston, Texas, according to the Guru's eldest brother, Bal Bhagwan Ji, who is also known as the Divine Freak. Some premies are saying that the comet is actually a spaceship carrying astro-travelers to Houston for the event. This is substantiated, they say, by the fact that it has no tail and has changed directions three times, information that NASA officials are refusing to divulge for fear of the widespread panic it might cause. Other premies suggest that Kohoutek is neither a comet nor a spaceship but the return of the Star of Bethlehem.

The recent spate of UFO sightings across the South has spurted predictions of visitors from outer space, and a portion of the Astrodome parking lot has been roped off as a landing strip. A premie named Susan Flack communicates with Lao-tzu by means of a ouija board (hence her nickname, Lao Sue) and has told me that she is in touch with a delegation of Venutians who plan to attend Millennium 'because they're from the planet of love and Guru Maharaj Ji is the source of love in the universe.'

Another story making the rounds is that a baby born several days ago in Houston shouted, 'The Lord has come,' and immediately died.

A leader of the Rainbow Brigade, a volunteer work force whose motto is 'Work Is Worship,' is holding a meeting with those premies who have not yet been assigned a devotion. He is down to the bottom of the list and is having trouble getting volunteers to clean out the Porto-Toilets. 'I can't assign this one,' he says. 'Don't volunteer unless your hearts are really into doing this blissful service for the Lord.' No one does.

I ask about some unopened cartons and am told they contain opera glasses, a variety of buttons, and two items used in the meditation: earplugs and something called a 'barragon,' a wooden elbow-rest in the form of a T-bar. 'That's what Christ meant when he said you should carry your cross upon your back,' a premie informs me.

After a few minutes the peanut-butter-and-jelly brigade is still abuzz with the unexpected darshan it has just received from Bal Bhagwan Ji. 'There was light around him, now that I think about it,' one premie says to no one in particular.

And boy, do these excerpts from satsang, given at that time, ring a bell.

Today I wake up and I'm in a Charlie Chaplin movie and the next day maybe it'll be a horror movie and the next a soap opera. Once you receive Knowledge you know it's all just a movie-and Guru Maharaj Ji is the director.'

I was sitting watching the sunset earlier and now I realize that Guru Maharaj Ji made that sunset so that I could enjoy it, so that I could feel at one with the universe.

Brrrr! Creepy.

I keep glancing at the mothers and fathers, wondering what they are thinking, for it is difficult to avoid the feeling that these are kids who have overstayed their childhood and are playing a last cruel joke on their unsuspecting parents.

Hmmm...

And who says that premies are unscientific? Listen to what this nerophysiologist has to say.

Hallowitz tells me about a little experiment he carried out not long ago in which he offered up 20 peanuts to Maharaj Ji by touching each one to his forehead, putting aside two that somehow 'didn't feel right.' Afterward he de-shelled them all and found that those two were rotten.

Ya gotta love it.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 16:07:24 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rolling Stone Article: 1st half.Wow!
Message:
If you typed all that, thanks for the effort, it is a timely reminder of how far m's drifted from the message that originally got people interested in him, me included. feed and clothe
and shelter the masses, eh? He seems to have got himself confused with the masses now, understandable I suppose but it shows how much he's changed his story and re-invented his mission, and how wrong it's gone now.

Thanks alot.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 17:18:49 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Rolling Stone Article: 1st half.Wow!
Message:
No I didn't type it !!! I'm using technology, a scanner and OCR software !!

Just added one more page ....

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 04:57:44 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rolling Stone Article: 1st half.Wow!
Message:
What's the point of this whole media exercise anyway, J-M?

Are you trying to create a religiously and ethnically pure France here? Even if you did succeed in aggravating Maharaji enough so that he doesn't go to your country, what's that achieved? Everbody will just go to Germany, or to England, or Spain - or India. You'll be just be pissing some of your old friends off, that's all.

I just don't understand the kind of kick you get out of this. Or is it St. Bartholomew's Night all over again?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 00:06:53 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: What's the point? It reminded me of where ..
Message:
miragey's taken me and how far off his original course he's gone, that's all. Now I remember the hysteria and everything is what made m interesting to me in the first place, cos it seemed something really cosmic was happening, and he was promising all sorts of things - like world peace, feeding and sheltering the world, idealistic stuff like that. It wasn't all just a 'personal' experience then. I'd forgotten all that til I read the article, and it reinforced my decision to stop listening to him. So J-M has been very helpful in providing that for me. There's alot of spontaneous sharing here, unlike miragey's control-freakery in EV. IMO :)
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 07:50:35 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: And furthermore Mili !!
Message:
Do you remember when I debunked your wonderful bogus 'satsang' pages on your website 4 years ago ?

What was that ? You were using those very same historical documents to carry some 'spiritual message' I guess. Not telling their origin. Not true ?

Can't you see the power of telling the historical truth ?

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 08:10:02 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: And furthermore Mili !!
Message:
You're weird, man.

I just don't get you, no matter how hard I try. No malice intended, really.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 12:40:02 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Yes, malice
Message:
to yourself. You kiss the hand that jailed you. You don't come across as a loving person.

Do you love everybody? If you don't you don't know what REAL love is.

YOU ARE WEIRD. Jump to the other side. There is TRUE freedom and you wont find it around rawat. Rawat is not responsible/giver of ANY of your experiences. Whatever they are, THEY ARE YOURS. YOUR EFFORT. YOUR SEARCH of the real YOU.

love u 2 my friend,

silvia

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 07:46:35 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: I'm not expecting you to understand ANYTHING!
Message:
I'm sorry .....

Maybe one day, and I sincerely hope you'll be able to !!

Good luck with your belief.

Re the RS article: this is called HISTORY !! And history is a priceless tool to understand what's going on NOW !!! Not closing your eyes and focusing on your breath ..... That makes you a stupid ostrich.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 08:30:39 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I'm not expecting you to understand ANYTHING!
Message:
Now I got it.

You remind me of an overly-zealous gunner dressed in some fancy old-fashioned (Napoleonic?) uniform who's firing duds with his antique cannon at an imaginary enemy. And he's terribly excited about it, frothing at the mouth, you know, jumping up and down - stuff like that.

People gather around and watch this kook in amazement. What the heck is going on here? What is he so worked up about anyway? He's fighting this imaginary battle with his imaginary opponents, and all that it is - is perhaps at times mildly amusing, and more often just irritating.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:25:07 (GMT)
From: bill-You should be able
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: to answer those questions yourself by now Mili!.nt
Message:
sfgs
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:07:26 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Oh good! Excellent, truly timely reminder!!nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:36:07 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Calling all plane spotters
Message:
All commercial and most business aircraft are fitted with an automatic communication system called ACARS. What this does in non-technical terms is transmit and recieve data and messages between the aircraft and its home-base or nearest airport.

As with all things nerdy, there are people whose joy in life is to monitor these messages and make them available on a website.

I found one such website (you know what this is leading up to, right?) here: ACARS (http://patriot.net/~acars/) and yes, N54PR is listed among the thousands of business jets there. If you click on the 'Logs' link, you can choose a location/date and download a zip file of all the data/messages monitored by the local nerd - sorry, airplane enthusiast. Well who knows what might turn up eh? Open the unzipped file in Wordpad or similar, its just plain text.

Other links on the site explain how the system works and what the abbreviations in the messages mean, etc.

Something to do on a rainy day?

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 04:02:44 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: N54PR where aaaaare you?; the evil EPO (LOL)
Message:
That's a reference to an old TV show theme song that went 'Car 54 where aaaaare you?'.

There is also equipment available to decode SELCAL (selective calling) transmissions.

To Rawat:
Just think, every time you fly from now one, an evil ex-premie might be eavesdropping on you. We are watching you, tracking your every move. This is a vast conspiracy of an well-funded international organization plotting against you. This evil EPO has its tenticles spread throughout the world, with operatives in at least France, England, the US, and Canada. Its budget runs over a hundred dollars, maybe even hundreds of dollars! :)

I guess Rawat got the 'well-funded international organization' bit from the fact that there are ex-premies in more than one country and www.ex-premie.org ends in 'org'. But of course, '.org' does not imply the site owner is an organization, that is only the original intended use of '.org'. In fact, there is no organization called the Ex-Premies Organization. Where did he got 'well-funded' from? I guess from his ass.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:09:02 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: G
Subject: And EPO boasts 7 million exes to date! LOL n/t
Message:
n
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 21:13:24 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: ps to this date, not ''to take out on a date'' n/t
Message:
n
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 16:55:50 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Calling all plane spotters
Message:
I was all ready with me inflatable globe and me set of pins.. when I saw the problem...

I would have loved to do this exercise when I was a young Premie... may I be excused plane spotting please on account that it brings me out in hives ? (I can get a note)

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:22:30 (GMT)
From: Kev
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Secrets and Lies
Message:
Hi all,

I have now been an exe for about 7 months now and one of the biggest surprises for me is how my perspective on life has changed and how I now view M and K. I cannot believe how narrow minded I once was. And the strange thing is that when you’re a premie you think of yourself as being so open minded. Once you are away from m’s spell you can see the bigger picture more clearly.

For example the other day I was thinking about how premies are told to keep the techniques of K a secret. Now one of the main reasons that M gives for not showing the techniques to anyone is that they are his techniques and only he can show them. But as we all now know they are not his techniques in the first place, and by what I have read here and else where he has been teaching them wrong anyway. The other reason he gives is, that that an aspirant must go through what he calls the process of being an aspirant and preparing for K. I know all about this process because I was part the process as a local aspirant contact for a couple of years. But now that I see the bigger picture I see this process as nothing more than just brainwashing. It is not about whether a person is ready for K but more about whether they except M as their master.
No, I think one of the main reasons he tells premies to keep the techniques a secret is just another one of his mind fucks to keep people within the cult. Let me explain. I think it can be best summed up by what a good friend said to me recently. M’s techniques of telling premies to keep the techniques a secret are very much like the same techniques child abusers uses on their victims i.e. “don’t tell anyone, this will be our little secret”.

From my own experience I remember feeling that I had something special that other did not have and that I was in a very special way; one of the chosen ones. I also remember how it was seen as the worst (and the most unforgivable) thing in the world that any premie could do was to show anyone the sacred techniques. So it was strange for me when did leave, because I was not sure how I would react when any of my friends or family asked me what the techniques are. Would I be able to break years of cult conditioning and tell them the big secret? But the funniest thing of all, which I have found, is that nobody (and mean nobody) is in the slightest bit interested in knowing my big secret. Just goes to show how easily we can fool ourselves into thinking we are something special when we are not.

Love,

Kev.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 05:34:42 (GMT)
From: silvia/sb
Email: None
To: Kev
Subject: good post!! :) nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:45:14 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Kev
Subject: Secrets and Lies. Very true! I'm finding that I'
Message:
I'm starting to be more honest with myself and especially other people. When i first had knowledge I too felt I had a secret and it made me somehow better than others, and I know I came across to my family at times as being superior. That secret is in fact a way of dividing people, his devotees on one side, the rest of the world on the other, and after the nevelty wore off, I found the secret a burden. But I didn't realise that until I discovered this site, and was able to drop it straight away. When anyone (rarely) asked about knowledge, I felt embarrassed and stupid to have to say that the knowledge was a secret, and that they had to go through this big long process of preparation and only m could give the knowledge. When I was asked why once, I struggled to find an answer, and realised there really wasn't any good reason. He just wanted power over people, and to make them grateful to him. There used to be something said like 'it's not the techniques anyway, it's the experience and only m can give you that' but alot of people have great experiences any number of ways, bungee jumping being one that springs to mind for some reason. One which is cheaper, less hassle, and less dangerous than coming under m's insidious influence. And will probably result in more entertaining piccies to reminisce over later, too.

I think that secret thing is a dead give-away, you're right, it is one of the abuser's stock-in-trade to exercise control. Do remember m saying once, don't know where it was, that Indian families used to hit each other all the time, like it was their way of saying they care, or something like that. Everyone laughed, but it's quite a telling insight into how he was brought up and what values he was taught. I don't think it's true of any of the Indian families I know over here, and I teach kids most of whom are Indian, as it happens. They all seem very well grounded, not at all violent to each other and generally lovely and intelligent people, kids and dults. Maybe m assumes, like we all do, that his family was totally normal (Dad, Satguru, mum, Holy Mother) and that's part of his problem.

Luckily he's rapidly becoming less part of my problems, in fact I haven't met so many good people for a long time as I'm meeting here.

Tchau, Kev. (That's Brazilian spelling, I was told, and I've just come back from Brazil so I like to keep that memory alive!:)

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 18:25:31 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: If aspirants knew the techniques, they'd leave
Message:
the aspirant process.

I've seen it so many times before, and it goes something like this:

1-new person comes to video
2-they return, realize that they have to wait to get k
3-they realize it will take at least 5 months minimum
4-if they decide to continue, they pay their dues by coming regularly, all in anticipation of the 'big day' when the 'big secret' is revealed and they can really begin the journey towards personal enlightenment in earnest...
5-they get techniques, realize that the chances of gaining enlightenment from putting thumbs in ears and gouging eyes with fingers are spotty at best...
6-realize that what this really is, is a cult of devotion and secret worship to a man with a very questionable private life and past...
7-split the scene, hopefully quickly, before they become a secret admirer of the guru...

The aspirant process, while being billed as an 'opening up of the heart' period, is really a 'conditioning' period in which the aspirant comes to believe in , and accept m, as their lord and master....
Most people are more open when they begin the process, than after 5 months or more of listening to the same old same old...

If the process was an opening up period, wouldn't the aspirants be told EVERYTHING, so that they could fully understand everything about m and k, before they got it?
Wouldn't questioning be encouraged?

If they knew the techniques at the beginning of the process, they might realize how ordinary they are, and not waste their time trying to get them.

If they knew beforehand what they would get from m after 5 months or more of conditioning, would they still wait?
M says that it doesn't work unless you get the techniques from him.
If they already knew the techniques, but were told that they would only work if they got them from m, or his 'mahatma-mac' auto knowledge scheme, do you think they would believe that?

So, yes, the secrecy vow is important in the control process.

If there any aspirants lurking, why not just try the 4 techniques on your own, see what they do for you, and then see if you also want a lifetime of worship and devotion to m in addition...

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 19:46:33 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Very clearly put, Kev, Jani and La-ex
Message:
I just sent this email to cretaivejani in answer to her request for doing the techs the traditional way. They are really four kriyas from kundalini yoga and are used for mental health. Each kriya can be done for ten to 15 minutes and they can also lead into each other without stopping the previous kriya.

First tech is called 'tranquil breath.' You sit and calmly observe the breath. It is also used for releasing tensions during the day. Relaxing into the breath and letting go when ever stress builds up. Yawning and stretching (like cats and dogs) is also recommended for releasing tension during the day. Rawat knows nothing about yoga at all and a good teacher would have shown us that the point of this technique is to open the heart and soothe the mind.

Second kriya is the nectar socalled because there is a faint tingly sweet sensation at the tip of the tongue where it touches the palate. This technique is for strengthening determination, concentration and perseverance. It is also used to keep one centered during the day.

Third kriya is light which the gurus teach first because it is dramatic and impresses the Indian peasants especially when the eyeballs are squeezed to produce that fake light. The eyeballs actually should not be touched at all. The thumb and middle fingers are placed between the eyebrows on the bridge of the nose and the index finger on the forehead just above. Concentrate on the touch of the finger without trying to see light. This tech is simply to give the mind a rest as the mind is so connected with our eyes. Lift your attention above the mind and let it rest on the forehead, lowering the eyeballs.

Fourth kriya is music. Place thumbs IN ears and rest other eight fingers across the dome of the head. Focus on the touch of the fingers on your skull. The sound like listening to a seashell is in the dome of the brain. Just let your mind listen to it calmly. During the day whenever you think of it just let your attention focus on the dome of your brain - that is where peace of mind is.

Don't expect anything from any tech least of all any of Rawat's bullshit religious concepts. They are simply a way to attain and maintain mental health and to feel the kundalini energy which we normally don't notice because we are focussing on thinking too much. He demonizes the mind as a way of scaring peasants into meditating.

He also keeps them secret because that way he can make money out of them. He is running a religious scam.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:49:29 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Calling all aspirants - here are the techniques...
Message:
What a good description - so simple and clear! Just in case any aspirants are reading, or anyone who doesn't have knowledge, these techniques PatC has described above are what you'd get if you signed up - but in a different (correct) order - apparently! You also get more instruction about what they're for than you'd get if you waited around for 6 months to get Miragey's version - plus you don't have to join anything and need never see another video of m trying to con you again.
Also, check out neuropsychology post to learn more about attaining altered states of consciousness, bliss, etc in a more modern way!

Hey, ex-premies, how about handing out leaflets with these techniques on outside aspirant programmes...hmmm, save everyone a lot of time and trouble (and money!) What do you think?

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:44:02 (GMT)
From: probono
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Calling all aspirants - here are the techniques...
Message:
it isn't a question of money or anything else, this is all about
giving your word....when you recieved knowledge you gave your word not to reveal these techniques...if you do then your word is no good....in spite of what all you exes think, there really is something incredibly beautilful to be experienced in 'perfect concentration on the perfect thing inside' which was Maharaji's definition of what this is all about....
Unfortunately, in order to spread this knowledge to the world, an international organization formed....some of these are definately power hungry cultists and would have formed around anybody with as much power as Maharaji has....I was around in the beginning and when the kitteridge bldg in denver was leased for the DLM headquarters...and I helped tear those offices down when the focus shifted from spreading knowledge which temporarily stopped powermongers from perpretrating their own agenda. Lots of premies and I'm sure that a lot of exes have experienced inner peace, via knowledge...it is unfortunate that the world needs this knowledge of stopping and taking an hour at least, to go inside to experience this perfection within, everyday....unfortunate because anything that is international in scope needs an orginization.....there is a big difference between a premie or an ex who still practices knowledge and a grace race ass kisser who never meditates on knowledge and works their way into an organization in order to obtain power....Could it be that Maharaji is being victimized by bashers who have not meditated enough and have not had (yet) enough of the fullness of this inner experience to have happiness themselves? after all, knowlege is not about externals, it is about having found a way to feel good everyday in spite of outward conditions that may sometimes be to the contrary....He has definately helped me to have contact daily with the pure perfect energy within and I am becomming happier each day, as a result
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 12:20:48 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: probono
Subject: K. makes you dull
Message:
Dear Pro bono (publico),

'He has definately helped me to have contact daily with the pure perfect energy within and I am becomming happier each day, as a result'

If you really want to do the public some good you need to embark on a course of sharpening up in the mental realm.

As a premie you obviously think you are in an exceptional position to bestow understanding on the world. I used to be like that. The trouble is that that 'pure perfect energy within' of which you speak, is making you stupid!

I'm afraid there are a whole host of questions that spring from using language such as 'the pure perfect energy within'-and I don't get the feeling you have asked yourself any of them.
For example the concept of energy? What is that then? And what is its relationship with the 'I' concept which you say is becoming so much happier as a result of this 'contact'. What is the nature of the contact/relationship? I could ask in what context do the two come together if, as you say, they do.

Pure? Perfect? Where do you get the right to apply these words to an 'energy'? And exactly what is it that makes 'within' different from without when we are talking energy?

I am not really a pedant or a killjoy, it's just that you sound so dumb, and you obviously have such a desire to enlighten.

Stop taking the anaesthetic, and start thinking about exactly who it is who is rubbing shoulders with 'perfect energy within'. At the moment it looks as if 'perfect energy within' is taking chunks out of YOU on a daily basis.

love Bryn

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:02:01 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: probono
Subject: PB,how about M giving us his word that he ...
Message:
was the most powerful incarnation of god to ever walk the planet?
Or that he swore on the holy bible that he would bring peace to the earth, and the lion would literally lie down with the lamb?
Also, we would be building shelters for ants, because everyone would be taking care of everyone else.

Also, that he would rule the entire earth as king.
1000 years of peace...
1000's of instructors...
Everyone would soon know not only what god is , but
WHO god is (I wonder who that could be?)

So, do you really think HE has kept his word to the people who received knowledge?
I don't.

As Marino, one of his personal valets back in the 1970's once said, maharaji is one of the world's greatest liars...

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 01:45:17 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: probono
Subject: no, this is kundalini yoga, been around a lot long
Message:
er than miragey has. I'm suggesting we give something better than knowledge, geddit? I think Pat explains the 4 yoga techniques much better than m explained his version in the last knowledge review I had.

About the promise, as far as I'm concerned he extracted it under false pretences. There's a song that came into my mind the other day which I thought was rather appropriate for a recent ex such as myself - hey, my mind's pretty on-the-ball! Pity miragey won't let you use yours!(Cue Rod Stewart):

If I listened long enough to you,
I'd find a way to believe that it's all true
Knowing that you lied,
Straight faced while I cried
Still I look to find a reason to believe...(the chorus is pretty apt too!)

I feel more loyalty to my fellow human beings, aspirants who are probably perfectly sincere, honest people, than I do to miragey who's betrayed all the trust I ever put in him. He promised to take me over the ocean of illusion and instead dumped me right in the middle of one he'd prepared earlier. But that's just my viewpoint.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:55:57 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: probono
Subject: no I don't think that is it
Message:
Ha, I had the light technique revealed to me before I went to M, and as a matter of fact it was one of the few times in my life I really saw light. Did NOT in the K session.

We gave our word under weird confusing conditions and it was bullshit.
We thought we were being offered the holy grail the meaning of life you name it. Of course we said whatever shit I said I'd cut off my head or some such nonsense. Is that a reasonable request to have been made of me? A fair exchange? Now how could i have experienced anything without my head? And what would mahatma Adharanand done with my damned head?

M is not being victimized. He is the one screwing up people.
We do not need him. He needs devotees more than they need him = $$$$$$

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:13:40 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: It's strange how it all got turned around,isn't it
Message:
? He needs the premies so he makes them think he's giving them some big secret, then he gives them 4 techniques that have been around for thousands of years and taught much better by most yoga teachers - and tells us he's perfect master, implying he's perfect, but then changing that bit when it's blatantly obvious he isn't...

I never promised to cut off my head, but I remember in the selections it was understood you had to be prepared to make a big sacrifice to get knowledge. The guy who told me about miragey had to cut his long hair, when i asked him what had happened to him he said 'I've got this guru... ' and I immediatley decided I must go and find out about him! But you know what, if you believe in destiny and such like, which is a comforting concept, it could be that we all had to go through this cult trip just so we could all meet up here and share this great feeling of freedom! I've learned more here since I came than in 29 years with miragey as my master/teacher.

Hah, what do you think about that, premies? What's better value, traipsing around after m or a couple of hours of enjoyable reading and chatting here?

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 02:34:56 (GMT)
From: probono
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: It's strange how it all got turned around,isn't it
Message:
couple hours of meditation every morn suits me just fine...this forum is interesting in that everybody gets to vent or just have their say....and as in all of the best journalism, things work best when both sides are presented...you guys ever check out enjoyinglife.org because it has some beautiful heartsongs
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 22:44:22 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: probono
Subject: Enjoying Life
Message:
Yes, I checked out Enjoyinglife.org and was so impressed I thought I would join in their on-line discussion forum (which they promised when they first set up the site) but I couldn't find it. Could you give me the URL so that I can discuss these issues over there?

Thanks,

John

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 07:12:06 (GMT)
From: probono
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Enjoying Life
Message:
sure its enjoyinglife.org
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 19:58:23 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: probono
Subject: It's strange how it all got turned around,isn't it
Message:
Dear probono,

Have you no original thoughts of your own or have you been so conditioned by m's cult that you can now no longer think for yourself. Oh no, I forgot the mind is bad and only the heart is good. Well here's some news for you; the heart is just a an organ which pumps blood around your body. And the mind, well my dear friend your mind is you. Your mind is not your enemy, it is just part of you and is there for a good reason. So please do not dismiss it. Start using it. You will be surprised at how better it can make your life. I am serious here probono, you talk about how great your experience of K helps you. And I and many others here would of probably have said the same sort of thing when they where premies. But we have all found our quality of life has gone up since we left M. My own appreciation of my own life is now much more than it ever was when I was a premie. I also appreciation my friend and family much more now.

So if you choose to post again on the forum please try to speak with your own voice and thoughts and not thous of the cult and M.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 07:21:50 (GMT)
From: probono
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: It's strange how it all got turned around,isn't it
Message:
pretty funny kev and demeaning too....to assume that i am not a free thinker....i am not only a free thinker but i am a free being....this knowledge has done that for me...you have a lot of daring, not knowing someone, to insult their intelligence, it shows how credulous you may have become....I always resisted the elements of the cult, which i agree there are in EV.....but my experience in meditation has come from decades of practice....i do not think and never said that i was better than anyone else...perhaps better off and believe me, i know the difference...you ought to try some ginko it may help...or at least some manners....
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:35:39 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: probono
Subject: a little joke for you
Message:
So your a free thinker are you? I'd watch that if I were you. E.V and M's not to keen on you being to much of a thinker. For example where is E.V's forum? And please do not say Enjoying Life.org because that is just a one way thing. In fact it reminds me of a very old Russian joke I once heard, it goes somthing like this.

There two are secret service agents talking to one another. One is a Russian KGB agent and the other is an American CIA agent;

CIA agent:- 'You see the trouble with your country Ivan is that you have no free speech. Why, in my country I can say out loud with out fear that the president of America is a complete asshole.'

KGB agent:- 'In that case we too have freedom of speech. I too can say out loud with out fear that the America president is a complete asshole'

Joking aside. I am sorry if you think I have no manners but it was not my intention to be rude to you, just trying to be open and honest with you. You are right I do not know you but I was a premie for along time. So I know what it is like to see the world through a premies eyes. The main thing I was trying to say to you is that for me and I know for a lot of others here the experience of life has got better since leaving M.

If you love some one. Do you need a third party person to tell you that you love that person? This is the same with life. I do not need some one (who does not know my name or even wants to know my name) to tell me this life of mine is a wonderful thing.

kev

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:09:18 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: probono
Subject: De gustibus non est disputandum, Probono
Message:
Most of the ELK stuff is Hallmark-like pap. Life isn't all oohs and aahs. There are also plenty of ouches and eeks and yuks and plain ordinary everyday common sense from ordinary people who don't have K and don't go around spewing platitudes.

Sure meditation is great but can you spread the good news to your friends and loved ones and tell them that your Master has no remorse or sense of horror and shame for killing an Indian peasant and tells lies about his past?

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 07:39:14 (GMT)
From: probono
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: De gustibus non est disputandum, Probono
Message:
pat, do you have any evidence to support that this ever happened or is it all just a vicious rumor...i don't mean about jagdeo...that is unfortunate and i agree that M should investigate....i'm speaking of this so called 'hit and run' and Maharaji's affair....is there any real evidence?...as for the jewel smuggling, i seem to recall that we were all asked to deposit our jewelry and it was collected in order to not flood indias economy with the amount of people going to prem nagar...we were told that it would be returned when we departed...it was so long ago though that i cannot remember if it was returned or if the indian authorities confiscated it...also, we were requested to not go on shopping trips and to stay focused in satsang, service, and meditation and i believe that the reason for collecting everyones jewelry was because premies who had only jewelry and little money could do black marketing and that was frowned upon....it seems to me that the whole thing was a premies idea and Maharaji didn't know about it...but i could be wrong....
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 09:52:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: probono
Subject: Probono, I don't get much into the scandals
Message:
That was a cheap shot about the hit and run - a sound byte. But I do trust Michael Dettmers (I have no reason not to and many to do so since I have started getting to know him) and he was present at the time.

However it is not the scandals that drove me away so much as realizing that I was ashamed of EV and could not propagate K which I really have enjoyed for nearly 30 years. My analysis has led me to believe that EV's cult-ness is a direct reflection of M's managerial incompetence and it's secrecy a result of his lack of responsibilty and the secret double-life that he leads. He projects a persona of open-ness via videos etc but in real life he is hiding things.

Why is he telling fibs about his past mistakes in introducing Hindu gurujism? He did not know any better and has since learned so why is he ashamed of fessing up that he did spew all the Hindu stuff about god being greater than guru? Because he knows that stuff brought enormous suffering to thousands whom he now says ''misunderstood him.''

He needs to be more honest and admit when he has made mistakes and stay behind and take the blame for accidents such as the hit and run. But he runs away from any admission of fallibility and blames the ashram premies or the mahatmas and currently he is blaming EV.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 13:17:17 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: EV UK's provocation.Children invited in Nottingham
Message:
http://www.elanvital.org.uk/events/nottingham.html

Download the Nott_Info2.PDF, and check Page 3:

Children attending.

Children 8 years of age and older who have a genuine interest in Maharaji's message and who are able to remain attentive for the duration of the event are invited to attend .... etc

and then download Information Pack.

What are this creeps trying to celebrate ?

30 years of pedophilia by Maharaji's mahatmas ?

Can't you start a campaign based on this ?

Have this document officially acknowledged (I don't know how you do this in UK, by an attorney or someone entitled ....

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 06:41:47 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: That's DISGUSTING!
Message:
Cult or no cult, any premie who would expose their child to the likes of EV and Maharaji with his pedophilic protectiveness has no business calling themselves a parent! Tonette
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:05:56 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Different law here , the concept of official
Message:
acknowledgement in the sense you mean doesn't exist .

Those below who suggest trying to get the press onto him have the right idea , apart from that in the UK it's a matter of trying to get someone in a position of power to take an interest.

That's a slow process , not least because identifying the right person is difficult .

I admire your tenacity in the cause of justice .

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 19:00:57 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV UK's provocation.Children invited in Nottingham
Message:
If you can't get enough new committed converts the good old fashioned way, you target the captive audience children. Get 'em young, plant the seed, hope for a good harvest. Curious that this demographic was not overtly targetted before. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Shameless.
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 16:14:13 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: did you find out how to do it?
Message:
My son can help you.
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 13:53:38 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV UK's provocation.Children invited in Nottingham
Message:
I'm doing my bit by letting religious organisations in the UK know of Maharaji's visit. It's a start and our church-leaders have a big say in things here. They are the people with the power over what is considered right or wrong by the press.

I feel more comfortable dealing with religious groups than I would do the press. However, I will contact the various big newspapers and also the local Nottingham papers to let them know what is afoot.

I have given this forum address to people so there might be some visits by interested religious people here and I hope that can be appreciated.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:30:55 (GMT)
From: jim boeger
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: EV UK's provocation.Children invited in Nottingham
Message:
you know what they say in show biz?????? 'Bad publicity is better than no publicity.'
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:44:40 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: That's understood
Message:
Yes I know that and I'm only trying to help Maharaji in my own small way. If we can get TV journalists and newspaper hacks all vying to get the dirt on the man, it will help his cause tremendously. I'll give them some ideas:

HIT AND RUN GURU DRIVES TO NOTTINGHAM

RETURN OF THE BOY GOD

THE SECOND COMING IS IN NOTTINGHAM

MILLIONAIRE GURU IN CHILD ABUSE SCANDAL

Once the newspapers over here get hold of a story, they don't pull any punches. I am just a humble servant.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 16:33:07 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Or howabout GURU IN CHILD ABUSE COVER-..
Message:
UP INVITES 8 YEAR OLDS TO JOIN HIM!
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 01:12:52 (GMT)
From: creative jeanie
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Or howabout GURU IN CHILD ABUSE COVER-..
Message:
thats pretty low...unfounded in truth and shows what kind of person you are vindictive...credulous....and out for a hanging...
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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 01:58:47 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: creative jeanie
Subject: You do have a point
Message:
I agree that Maharaji has never himself been implicated in any child abuse. He wouldn't have a prayer if he had. Personally, I've always thought the child abuse scandal would never hurt Maharaji. It doesn't look good though with a possible child abuser having never been brought to book by Maharaji's organisation. That could hurt Maharaji.

And whose fault would it be if it did? People have given enough warnings.

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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 07:52:19 (GMT)
From: creativejeannie
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: You do have a point
Message:
Sir dave
I wholeheartedly agree with you that Maharaji should investigate.the Jagdeo incident...and I think that Fakiranand was so fanatical that it was bound to happen...he used his mahatmaship to force ashrams to buy things they couldn't afford, such as an expensive carpet because Maharaji was visiting...and then left...and of course the ashramites had to find someway to foot the bill. I was appalled at Fakiranands actions but in all fairness, I seem to recall that Maharaji went to the hospital and assured the pie throwers family that he would take care of the medical expenses and he apologized for F's actions and immediately sent him back to India....Maharaji payed the price on that one at Millenium because instead of the press focusing on his message, they focused on the incident....
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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 11:00:42 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Meanwhile, as we were gonna save the world..
Message:
..the Viet Nam War continued. Frustrated as many of us were, we chose Lard Butt's PRACTICAL SOLUTION. It would ensure that this killing would be no more. We would live in peace as the Lord was here to save the planet from itself.

Gradually, the tables were turned on us. No longer was spreading the K, the goal in itself. Devotion to Rawat(then masquerading as Guru Maharaj Ji)was all that mattered. Propogation was only used as an energizing tool for those who were still loyal Rawatians.

The numbers began to dwindle. Terms such as 'freaked out' were used in whispers to describe those who left. Most left confused and to this day remember certain experiences as positive but the effort was too great.

As one who left finally in '96 this way, I want to remember the vast majority of those that left. They left with their tales between their legs, believing they had commited the greatest sin, i.e. having this K and not using it. I was this way until I found this forum. Most who have rec'd K have not and they carry a heavy burden with them to this day. They don't know they just joined a stupid cult or they choose not to recognize it because it is to confronting.

This is a Memorial Day for them. Those who still carry the active cult virus with them.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:16:44 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: *** Very Serious Point ***
Message:
In the old days, there were premies, non-premies, aspirants, and non-practicing premies. It was always assumed that premies who had left could, should, and would come back one day. The possibility of leaving his lotus socks forever was unthinkable.

Then came the option of being an ex-premie. This is completely different to being a non-practising, or lapsed, premie. The latter is simply someone who doesn't practice the meditation techniques, and otherwise isn't involved in following the guru. An ex-premie, though, has actually made a conscious decision that Maharaji is not who he has claimed to be (and hence is a liar), and therefore is not worthy of high regard, or any other personal support.

Most former premies are probably still in the category of lapsed premies, and although they are probably getting on with their lives OK, may need to make that closure with regard to their time with Maharaji. There are exes posting here who were away from Maharaji for many years but still discovered layers of cult thinking when they found this site.

So, well done Mr. Mind for highlighting these people.

Let's here it for the thousands of lapsed premies who still have a small suspicion in their minds that they may have met the lord once.

John.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:34:40 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: That's dead right , there must be thousands ...
Message:
....who now & then go 'oh no , I've blown it as regards the infinite , what's gonna happen ' .

That is a serious burden .

The sooner Rawat can be dethroned & ridiculed for all to see the better .

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 14:21:36 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: So what do you LIKE to be called for short?
Message:
First name?
Nickname?

Feels like the scene where Darth Vader takes off his gear.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 10:39:15 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Shell Man
Message:

The Shell Man

    It may seem Yoram Weiss could be giving good advice,
    But the name of his game is to shell you.
    A street corner hustler, he's barking for a huckster,
    'Master' Captain Rawat, of Malibu.

    The game that they will play if you let them have their way,
    Sells you something you were never missing!
    They get from you in turn, all the cash you have to burn,
    but still his holy toes need your kissing!

    Such is Captain Rawat's circus for rich prats,
    Enroll to hear the Captain talk of truth!
    Once, more than merely God; now, an ordinary bod
    (except he is extraordin'ry uncouth).

    Some say he's enigmatic. He's surely psychopathic!
    Posing as Maharaji! Getting worshipped!
    He keeps spending faster, his mission's a disaster,
    with his most devoteds being ripped.

    Tho' Yoram's winning smile is seeming free of any guile,
    know the cash that he's raising won't create.
    It will buy the Captain mundane baubles like a plane;
    a yacht maybe; and then a new estate.

    Yoram's just the milk-maid, it's the premies are the cows,
    Their milk has got the Captain badly hooked.
    The worshippers are down, the techniques are passed around.
    The Captain's goose is looking like it's cooked.

    Like your yoga bhakti? Your worship happy-clappy?
    You're better with a cleric who's humane.
    Kindly caring teachers are better than a preacher
    when the preacher's only care is to reign.

    If your buzz is kriyas -- with fingers in your ears,
    hear the music of the gods in your brain --
    then teachers of yogas are better than a bogus
    Messianic guru fraud on the wane.

    When Yoram comes to call, better keep him in the hall.
    Use your money helping folks who are poor.
    Don't be a silly arse seen out posing with a farce.
    Use reason with your yoga evermore!

    JohnT
    - never a premie

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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 13:23:02 (GMT)
    From: SB
    Email: None
    To: JohnT
    Subject: 'Sales you something you were never missing'
    Message:
    The game that they will play if you let them have their way,
    Sells you something you were never missing!
    They get from you in turn, all the cash you have to burn,
    but still his holy toes need your kissing!

    thanks poet. what a crappy 'family'. Even $5 will help, said David Smith, the looklikehumanbutisnot robot.

    hi JT. where have you been? You don't come often anymore. I know why. Don't answer.

    have fun! SB

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    Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 23:30:50 (GMT)
    From: jumbler
    Email: None
    To: Everyone
    Subject: resolution time
    Message:
    Dear brothers & sisters,
    I expect I'll be ridiculed for being naive, but, if everyone on this site focused on the single aim of finding a way to shut down his evil mission, & knowing what we did for him in the past, don't you think we could & should?
    I know we all have our own crosses to bear, & lives to lead, but don't we also have a duty to those who come dehind us to prevent the hurt he did to us happening to them?
    I just would like to stop the bastard.............
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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 04:18:33 (GMT)
    From: la-ex
    Email: None
    To: jumbler
    Subject: I agree, but who's got the master plan?
    Message:
    Jumbler-

    Good point.
    If we took all the energy that goes into posting and reading here at epo, and put it into a serious plan to thwart m, I'm sure we could make some progress.

    Question is, what would be the most effective plan and method of implementing it?

    A few thoughts:

    1-this site is extremely effective, and relevant information on it is easily communicated to interested parties.

    2-are there any serious journalists who might want to take on this task, of reporting on m's activities today...(maybe JM can teach us all a thing or two about this one)

    3-how about notifying any halls where he may be speaking, as to some of his past activities.

    4-public demonstrations at halls where he may speak.

    5-a video with interviews that can be sent to interested people...

    Any other comments, ideas, plans..?

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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 03:47:01 (GMT)
    From: sb
    Email: None
    To: jumbler
    Subject: YES!!! NT
    Message:
    nt
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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 01:08:37 (GMT)
    From: Steve Quint
    Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
    To: jumbler
    Subject: resolution time
    Message:
    I've been around here for eight months and find progress at reaching justice to be sometimes painfully slow.

    The cynical side of me says that maybe maharaji is god - how otherwise would he hold out so long against a strong tide of opposition. Regulars at this site include lawyers and other professionals.

    Please see my first post here which I just reread today. Here it is.

    Someone here recently asked the question which I find the most powerful - 'Would you invite a new person to see maharaji speak?' Any lurkers here dare to answere in the affirmative?

    Believe it or not, and I don't think I've mentioned this here yet, I have brought about 50 people to video events over the last 10 years. Some walked out, most never came back, two or three came for a few months, and only one received knowledge - a Philippina lady. I think this speaks volumes.

    Steve

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    Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 23:49:17 (GMT)
    From: creativejani
    Email: None
    To: jumbler
    Subject: resolution time
    Message:
    Yes, it's up to us, it's true. we can all do something. publicity is the best thing I know of, which is why I'm writing to papers and so on. It does take time, and everyone has to decide how much they can do, but if there are lots of small efforts made they'll add up (Now, where have I heard that before?) But it's a snowball effect, and some ex-premies have been trying for years now. I think there's a right time for things to come about, and (I think)this is approaching the right time! France has got mobilised, and since it's m's 30th anniversary of coming to the west in June, I'm sure a paper over here (U.K.)will pick up on it, and do a review of his mission. Each country needs a separate campaign, which will have a cumulative effect. He can't hide much longer! I suppose some sort of organisation would probably be a help, but I'm not into organisations, never was, and I'm even more against them now! Just do what you feel like doing, and see if anyone else is interested, if you have a particular idea in mind.

    Did you go jumbling in the seventies? That was my introduction to service - it's been all downhill from there!

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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 01:12:51 (GMT)
    From: Bob
    Email: None
    To: creativejani
    Subject: jumbling
    Message:
    I always liked jumbling. You got to see many people and because they thought it was for the catholic church (D L Mission), they were mostly very friendly, (instead when we went out for propagation we were ridiculed and treated hostile). The physical action and the pace loosened everybody up, and it was great to be outdoors instead of being in a packed satsang hall. Good memories.
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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 11:07:24 (GMT)
    From: Bryn
    Email: None
    To: Bob
    Subject: Jumbling made me the man I am today! nt
    Message:
    gh
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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 01:21:18 (GMT)
    From: creativejani
    Email: None
    To: Bob
    Subject: jumbling - yeah! Highlight of the mission..nt
    Message:
    nt
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    Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 22:58:24 (GMT)
    From: JHB
    Email: None
    To: Everyone
    Subject: Weird experience and thoughts on light
    Message:
    I was lying in bed having almost recovered from some sort of gastro virus, when I had a sort of vision thing where I was aware of a strong light to my right. I started to turn my attention towards it as I've been persuaded (thanks Nigel for the word) to do, and then thought; 'hang on, why do I want to look at the light, wouldn't it be better to look at what the light is illuminating?'. And I turned away from the light, and looked around, and felt really good.

    So afterwards, I thought some more on this. When people walk into a room, and turn the light on, no one then stares at the light, they look at the contents of the room, that the light was installed to illuminate in times of otherwise darkness.

    And when people go out on a sunny day, they look at all the things that the sunlight is illuminating, and only complete idiots would look at the sun.

    So what's all this about looking at the light?

    (I know this doesn't really mean anything but I enjoyed thinking and writing about it:-))

    John the glad the abdomenal pains have gone.

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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 15:48:44 (GMT)
    From: Sir Dave
    Email: None
    To: JHB
    Subject: I know what that was
    Message:
    That light was Jim Heller practising his astral projection. Just as well you didn't look since I don't think he's learned to astrally project his clothes.
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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 14:02:37 (GMT)
    From: Sandy
    Email: None
    To: JHB
    Subject: Weird experience and thoughts on light
    Message:
    Hi John,

    I agree with you about focussing on what is illuminated rather than the light source, in situations involving physical objects that have shape, color and texture, cast shadows etc.

    I do believe there is a light than IS to be focussed on which is beyond the physical plane, but which we can 'see' with our higher senses and it is good to focus on that light. There are many, many schools and teachers who show how to do that, as we both know.

    And personally, whenever I can look into the sun for a bit without hurting my eyes, I do. Sunrise and sunset are good times to do that because the rays are more refracted and not as direct and harmful. I feel not only physically illuminated, but I also feel very loved and nourished and illuminated within as well, like nothing else does for me. The sun is the most physically evident and useful signature of God's love for me when I stop being mental or philsophical about it. The Sun of God, bringing light, life and love for free every day of my life.

    I believe there is information in light waves...information, food (prana) which some have learned to live on without physical food), love, all things good for life and growth. And the information says 'Dig it! and 'Enjoy!' and 'Play nice!'

    But that's just me on Memorial Day 2001 after a very strong cup of Colombian coffee....

    Sandy

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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 12:12:08 (GMT)
    From: Bryn
    Email: None
    To: JHB
    Subject: Wierd? Makes perfect sense.
    Message:
    Dear John,
    I'm fed up with these four techniques and the mumbo jumbo that goes with them. If you commit premie heresy and actually ask yourself what is going on here, the answer comes loud and clear-I am looking at something. The situation is the same as being a spectator in the material/physical world, only now, with K, your a spectator in your own psyche! Before K, you float in the river of bondage to maya, after K you float in the ocean of an inner maya. The only resolution comes when you find out who is the 'i' who is doing the watching, looking on, floating etc. You won't get any help on that from M.

    Premies are actualy left in the lurch after recieving K. We are all self-taught. I was particularly vulnerable to the urge to merge with what ever came along in the inner landscape in which I found myself dumped. I fell victim to endless delusions about myself, based mainly on repeatedly DISSLOVING my rather infantile ego forces in regular baths of mystical experience.

    Pracicising K meditation is a bit like looking into a mirror that has a life of its own. How must it feel to look into a mirror on a wall and suddenly the reflection winks back at you? Arrrgh! Oppressive, mystic, autonymous, phenomena, whose origins and creation I do not participate in-spooky. So easy to listen to the master telling me 'its you! There is no lead plugging you into anything. It's YOU!' No it's not, its something I am looking at. I am separate from it, and it seems to me that the most interesting part of this situation is on THIS side of it-the ME side. Not the light side; Stuff that, leave me alone, it's got a life of its own! Help, get it away from me! Its alive!

    Maha's minute guidance on the dynamics of the inner space (that I can remember) amounted to this. 'Hide in that feeling within while clouds with hooks on pass ovehead and can't get you'
    That was one piece of advice that a man of my nature/temperement did not need to hear. I have to say I was the victim of exposure to generalised and indiscriminate spiritual 'guidance'

    Another clanger dropped by the lord that confused me for years was: 'God gave you the gift to think; What you think about is your gift to yourself' I can't imagine a more skilfull piece of chicanery, gauranteed to close down whole vistas of understanding -stillborn.

    Hurrah hurrah I'm on my way at last! Twenty five years?!! Five would have been more than enough.
    Love Bryn
    Ps John, whatever happened to J Drake?

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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 14:36:00 (GMT)
    From: creativejani
    Email: None
    To: Bryn
    Subject: hi, are you the Bryn from Leeds I used to know?
    Message:
    i was at Victoria Road for a while, then Brudenell Road, played piano and flute...if you are, hi, nice to hear you're still around, those were the fun times for me!
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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:17:00 (GMT)
    From: Bryn
    Email: bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
    To: creativejani
    Subject: Yes its me. We played tunes together did we not?nt
    Message:
    fg
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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 21:08:54 (GMT)
    From: Bryn
    Email: Bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
    To: Bryn
    Subject: Email me Jani. BD
    Message:
    blah blah hear you on the emailBryn
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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 18:00:18 (GMT)
    From: JHB
    Email: None
    To: creativejani
    Subject: Yes, he is:-)
    Message:
    I'll send you his email address when I find it. I don't know any other ex-Leeds premies who have posted here.

    John.

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    Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:25:52 (GMT)
    From: creativejani
    Email: None
    To: JHB
    Subject: Yes, he is:-) He posted his email, thanks! nt
    Message:
    nt
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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 13:35:53 (GMT)
    From: JHB
    Email: brauns@apollo.lv
    To: Bryn
    Subject: Drake (ot)
    Message:
    Email me and I'll send his number - I'm sure he'd love to hear from you. He's been through a bit of a hard time in the last couple of years but he seems to be through it. He's definitely an ex although he still does the inner maya swimming stuff.

    John.

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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 03:16:26 (GMT)
    From: Gregg
    Email: None
    To: JHB
    Subject: Could the velvety darkness be God? (nt)
    Message:
    night!
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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 00:32:10 (GMT)
    From: Robyn
    Email: None
    To: JHB
    Subject: Weird experience and thoughts on light
    Message:
    Dear John,
    Glad your belly is feeling better. :)
    I just had a new experience re light also. I was dealing with 2 bats swooping around in my bedroom last Friday night at 2:30am. It was a 3 hour saga for me but at the very end, it was just starting to get light outside so I shut my light off. I was exhausted but afraid to shut my eyes because only one bat left. I was trying to see, in the half light, if the bat was there and I started to see floresent green donuts forming like when I meditate on light, I never use my hands. Then, in the distant black in the center of the donut was this small sharp symetrical purple design and then it changed to deep pink. I was trying to shake it off, I wanted to scan for the bat and fall asleep. Finally I shut my eyes and that was just what I was seeing there too.
    I thought that was cool. If I've ever seen white light it was only once or twice but I don't think I have really.
    I was discussing this with my boss, why some people see things that others don't. I call them day time visions and told him a few examples. He asked if I'd ever done acid which I have and told him so but I also had some unexplainable experiences when I was a kid. I used them as an escape from a violent home life. I think that is what got me started. I found a way to escape, looking back I think I was going into a trance but a fuzzy feeling would come over me and I'd go into another world with people and all. I value every weird experience I've ever had and don't think it has to do with god or m. I think it is a natural ability people have, some people more then others like being athletic or artistic.
    Love,
    Robyn
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    Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 23:22:50 (GMT)
    From: creativejani
    Email: None
    To: JHB
    Subject: Weird thoughts ...
    Message:
    Hi John, hope you're all better now. That's a good point about the light - I think we were expecting to merge into the light and attain samadhi or nirvana or one of those transcendental states. I once (in the early days) meditated and felt the top of my head disappear in what seemed to be a growing sensation of light. It was scary, I panicked and it went. That's about the only time I've really felt strong light, if you get my drift. I think being ill loosens our connection to our body a little, and we get strange sensations - I suffered auditory hallucinations when I was having chemotherapy last year - but that's another technique!

    Take care, email me when you have a minute, give my love to the horses...

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    Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 23:03:56 (GMT)
    From: Arlo Guthrie
    Email: None
    To: JHB
    Subject: 'You can't have a light without ...
    Message:
    'You can't have a light without a dark to stick it in.'
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    Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 04:52:01 (GMT)
    From: Disculta
    Email: None
    To: Arlo Guthrie
    Subject: Migraineur
    Message:
    Been having an intense migraine today and seeing marvellous little fairy lights in my peripheral vision.

    Some people say that being sick helps with cosmic, spiritual experiences, but I have found the opposite. My best experiences of all kinds have come when I am more embodied - even meditation experiences. The rest of the time I feel I'm in a bit of an in-between zone.

    Glad your tummy has cleared up, John. That can be a doozy. Regards to all in Latvia.

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