Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:50:44 (GMT)
From: May 30, 2001 To: Jun 04, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


Forum Administrator -:- Repost of message to Michele Deradune -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:03:38 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- I did not use another alias-Nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:49:54 (GMT)
__ Michele Deradune -:- THIS MAY BE MY LAST POST -- PLEASE READ -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:42:12 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- THIS is not my LAST POST -- PLEASE READ -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:23:16 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- THIS MAY BE MY LAST POST TO YOU BECAUSE -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:15:21 (GMT)
__ __ Steve M -:- Michelle dimwit Maha is Elan Vital -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:45:55 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Administrator -:- It's your choice michele -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:16:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- I'm right with you, FA -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- Mili is under consideration -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:06:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Francesca, my thoughts exactly! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:00:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Was just wondering where you were silent one -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:02:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- I can take a hint -- we talking 'Red Heels'? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:31:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Yes, 'Red Heels' / 'Red Heart' etc.. -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 09:42:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Couldn't be fucking danny , could it ?(nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:23:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- :)) spill the beans FA who else is she?? (NT) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:21:31 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- I support banana...I don't like banana republics.. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:12:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Open notes to la-ex and Jim -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:12:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- You've slung enough insults yourself -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:05:52 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- I'm all for freedom of speech myself so I .... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:59:03 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- MY LAST POST -- PLEASE READ... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:48:49 (GMT)
__ __ SB/Silvia -:- Fake. NT OUT -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:39:47 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- THIS MAY BE MY LAST POST -- PLEASE READ -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:23:29 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Not fear, boredom -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:12:41 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- THIS MAY BE MY LAST POST -- PLEASE READ -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:08:26 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Your last post -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:55:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Her last post -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:10:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Silvita -:- Salam, you are kidding, right? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:17:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- what's the question? -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:14:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ S -:- I got it -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:33:05 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Question, Michele -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:50:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Question, Michele -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:20:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Jeez the penny just dropped -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:27:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Bingo Bazza! - Freakin' brilliant! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:39:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Re. the credit cards, do you know that if .. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:51:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Question, Michele -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:52:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Are you mad? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:35:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- I support Michelle's contributions -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:13:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve M -:- Anything and everything about Maharaji and his -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:13:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ clh -:- Anything and everything about Maharaji and his -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:41:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Right on Steve (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:24:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ clh -:- I support Michelle's contributions -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:37:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- I support Michelle's contributions -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:25:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- un-fun? You surely didn't expect a round.. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:06:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- I support Michelle's contributions -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:35:47 (GMT)

Way -:- They're finally responding -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:22:07 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- It Ain't Necessarily So, Mkay -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:25:29 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- Let's have a contest -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:58:13 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- They're finally responding -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:19:28 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Ain't it his own damn fault? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:02:22 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- For the record, I was a grunt, no PAM, grunt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:10:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Jim the 2nd to last paragraph has quite a spin nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:42:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- I protest -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:39:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Joe? Joe who? (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 19:49:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- yeah Joe you are a hate monger too! -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:32:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Too funny, Joe! -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:47:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- We MUST sue lard -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:07:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- How do Pauline Premie+TED F feel about all this?nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:49:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- At least Rawat finally knows your name! nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:23:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- At least I've got one! nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:34:18 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- How quick this site poped up -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:19:59 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- it-aint-so.org registered on May 9 -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:44:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Pia, from Denmark, knows English slang?... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:17:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Organisation - I think she means Dettmers and J-M -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:18:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Well actually G...(ot) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:31:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- That makes sense. NT -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 00:43:52 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- 'This is a call for people who know' miragey? EPO! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:00:50 (GMT)
__ janet -:- i just posted this there -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:33:25 (GMT)
__ __ clh -:- i just posted this there -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:03:24 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- This is FANTASTIC -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:33:13 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Oh what a tangled web we weave, when our intent . -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:12:40 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- I have questions ??? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:10:12 (GMT)
__ __ Bryn -:- I got the same message -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:12:50 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- I have questions ??? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:21:06 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- They're finally responding -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:07:12 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- she also claims this: -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:29:46 (GMT)
__ G -:- anti-cult law voted in France -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:23:24 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- anti-cult law voted in France -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:20:53 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- As with EV no real public forum -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:08:19 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- free speech...no, they can't handle it.. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:32:06 (GMT)
__ Silvia Sommer -:- Pia Grunbaum FORGOT to tell us she ADORES the man -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:55:13 (GMT)
__ __ S -:- My videos- I pay for them with credit cards -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:54:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ TYPO -:- Paid -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:25:28 (GMT)
__ __ Marolyn Kyntyre -:- Silvia Sommer needs help, immediately. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:14:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Marolyn K - the site vs the forum -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:35:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- You MEAN Silvia Sommer Is help -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:57:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Silvia can say whatever she likes -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:59:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- i'm enjoying her rants. its healthy! and fun! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:47:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB/Silvia -:- I have it, I feel it and I'm going for the jugular -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:54:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Sorry if my truth offends you -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:42:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Why do you all of a sudden . . . -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:36:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marolyn Kyntyre -:- point taken Francesca -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:23:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- as another old duck, Marolyn -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:24:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- point taken, Marolyn -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:52:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- you're full of it -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:31:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- done..nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:18:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marolyn Kyntyre -:- Well done. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:54:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Silvia Sommer -:- Excusse me bitch, SHUT up, DUMMIE -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:12:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ To Michelle -:- Michelle, is he the lord or not?? nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:38:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marolyn Kyntyre -:- 'Love to you too, but I don't have to like you' -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:42:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ geryy -:- Marolyn, you are being antagonistic -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:17:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Typo, sheesh, I even mispelled my own name -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:24:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- It's all that sicko stuff effect.....nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:37:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ S -:- me or her? LOL who cares... nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:31:36 (GMT)
__ __ Correction -:- I ment to say firearm. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:57:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- I ment to say firearm. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:07:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- again Rick -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:02:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ S -:- READ HOW I wrote-you didn't -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:45:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- READ HOW I wrote-you didn't -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:35:50 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Pia forgot something important. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:33:35 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Oy Veh! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:33:35 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Yikes! A vomitorium -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:31:36 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- :)) nice word ...vomitorium...APT. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:14:33 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- I have emailed Pia -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:41:39 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- Yes, another factual error about the Mike D's -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:37:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- A PRONE profile lately I bet! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:15:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Bill, I'm shocked! (blush) -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:41:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- I was pissed off. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:40:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I feel sorry for you! She doesn't even know me! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:45:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- But seriously -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:43:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Some inaccuracies -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:59:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- My posting to her site -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:07:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Well said! NT -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:22:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- dogs and the Lion, how appropriate! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:49:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ silvia -:- Perfect! Right ON nt ;) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:42:56 (GMT)

Marianne -:- Irish Times article -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 14:35:16 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Cool Marianne..I'll look out for it (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:09:32 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Can't find the Irtish Times in Tooting!! NT -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:47:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Especially if you're in bed. NT -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 19:24:02 (GMT)
__ David M -:- Irish Times article -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:33:00 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Marianne, you may think I'm jealous but I'm not. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:22:18 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Irish Times article -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:01:29 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- For those who have no idea of what m's world -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:40:44 (GMT)
__ JSK -:- BEST OF NOMINATION thanks again nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:57:22 (GMT)
__ janet -:- my first satsang was that one at st mark's place! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:55:09 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Always fear based rawat manipulation -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:07:07 (GMT)
__ __ bill-This post is from -:- an aspirant who discovered something inthe process -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:19:36 (GMT)
__ silvia -:- YOU ARE THE BEST! my love to u. NT -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 14:00:15 (GMT)

AJW -:- Version Control -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:07:55 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Excellent, excellent post, Anth! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:44:19 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- A real tour de farce Anth! /nt -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 21:46:21 (GMT)
__ __ Roy -:- No Master Plan - thanks Anth nt -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:18:26 (GMT)

Michele Deradune -:- It sounded like I was contradicting myself when... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:20:04 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- A few thoughts from another ex-transcriber... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:12:03 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Michele, Navigation here is easy -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:07:45 (GMT)
__ bill-just look in this -:- thread for your messages. That is enough space..nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:11:41 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- ''By Hook or By Crook'' ...Michele -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 14:06:48 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Hey Michele, you neet Version Control (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:18:42 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- You standing in fa ire you dummy -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:08:49 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- should read:You're standing in a fire you dummy -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:10:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- yeah, looks like, sounds like, smells like... (nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:11:03 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- You can't be real... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:23:29 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- But Rawat is quite useless! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:21:55 (GMT)
__ Silvia -:- that your crap some place else, you sadist! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:16:36 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- ah, um, er, Sylvia? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:32:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- We'll see. I'm seldom wrong -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:15:51 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- It sounded like I was contradicting myself when... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 11:50:39 (GMT)
__ Steve Mulley -:- It sounds at present like... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 11:14:45 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Forget that old stuff -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 11:01:20 (GMT)
__ silvia -:- Oh, Darling, how original! PAMI -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:51:48 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Here is an Anth post for you Michele -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:14:57 (GMT)

Mr. Williams -:- Jim's 5/29 post -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 08:42:36 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- Teachers are supposed to be able to teach. -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:38:17 (GMT)
__ Way -:- You're repeating yourself -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 14:57:07 (GMT)
__ Brain -:- Look -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:25:06 (GMT)
__ Steve Mulley -:- Youve had your say now... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 11:19:21 (GMT)
__ Silvia -:- Jim's 5/29 post -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:35:16 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- My Dear Mr. Williams -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:19:46 (GMT)
__ __ Silvia -:- You DO have a mind! Good for u! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:39:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- No, just a recovering Rawatian cult member.. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:57:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ silvia -:- He damages people's self-esteem -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 11:50:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- trace elements -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:46:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ s -:- many are. I don't. I like my beef, of couse. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:57:50 (GMT)
__ toby -:- Jim's 5/29 post -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:21:18 (GMT)
__ __ susi -:- Jim's 5/29 post -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:40:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr bill -:- Perhaps we see the larger picture and you dont? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:47:04 (GMT)

Giggles -:- Rawat greases the wheels to the tune of 5K -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:45:02 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- I gave, too, and so did many thousands - anon... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:31:05 (GMT)
__ Where did you get this? -:- Is this from a website? (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:23:12 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Here is the link -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:59:10 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:03:38 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Michele
Subject: Repost of message to Michele Deradune
Message:
Obviously you are having trouble navigating the forum, as you said below, since you not only did not respond to my post you are blatantly ignoring its content.

So here it is again:

Regarding this:

For me this board is therapy in the sense that it is the only place where people who even know who Maharaji is converge, with public welcome, and I am allowed to say whatever the fuck I want to say.

Yes, you are welcome to post here, but please do not try to treat this forum simply as a place for expressing love for your fat Indian guru, for that is not its intended purpose. For that, you have Enjoying Life website or even Chris Dickey's forum (ask him about it, he posts here as CD)

Primarily this is a place for ex-premies, and premies are allowed to post here as guests so long as they are not disruptive or make a nuisance of themselves. We do have the ability to restrict the size and quantity of posts made by individuals, or to block them from posting entirely, based solely on a judgement call by one of us Forum Administrators.

I hope I have made my point, and that you will not pad out your contributions with excessive amounts of 'satsang', or other forms of devotional tripe - we truly do not need it and do not have to put up with it.

And as a footnote, I would add that I am already seeing and taking note of complaints from regular ex-premies, who are beginning to be nauseated at having all that crap thrown at them again.

Oh, and Mr. Mind - whoever you are - if you answer this post with another alias as you did last time (I deleted it) I will block you.

FA

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:49:54 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: I did not use another alias-Nt
Message:
asdf
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:42:12 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: THIS MAY BE MY LAST POST -- PLEASE READ
Message:
...even though I have listed quite a few passionate complaints I personally have about Elan Vital processing in a cult-like manner. I think I have made it clear that my strong feeling is that Elan Vital does indeed display many qualities of a cult, and for this reason I have defected from Elan Vital.

Elan Vital did not address my issues when I tried to work within the system. That is because the system, as it now stands -- to the best of my knowledge -- is inflexible and unwilling to allow premies to express themselves freely. They had the AUDACITY to tell me not to speak of Maharaji on MY OWN WEBSITE -- without even having read what I had written. And they will never know what I wrote, because when the PR person told he didn't even want to read it, I was so dejected and angry that I deleted it from my website and my hard drive. I do remember this, however: If he or anyone in PR had read it, they probably would have loved it. And they probably STILL would have asked me not to print it because they were apparently afraid of setting a precedent -- of people feeling free to speak of Maharaji on the net. Ultimately they KNEW that most people would NOT put their writings through the EV censors.

The Elan Vital public relations team seeks to control public opinion of Maharaji, while at the same time treating Maharaji's own followers (premies) as if they have no right at all to freedom of speech. TO ME THIS IS WHAT A CULT DOES.

THAT SAID, as you know, if you have been reading my posts, I do NOT believe Maharaji to be a cult leader. Rather, he is a leader and many people who follow him have -- because the road to hell is full of 'good intentions' -- created a cult-like structure and environment because they WANT to serve Maharaji.

Let me say that again: The road to hell is filled with good intentions. It is my passionate contention that many if not most active people of responsibility and authority in Elan Vital are HURTING Maharaji by participating in and propagating a cult-like structure.

Now, Mr./Ms. Forum Administrator, if that is not good enough reason for you to let me post here WITH FREE SPEECH, EVEN INCLUDING FREE SPEECH REGARDING MY HIGHEST REGARD FOR MAHARAJI, then FUCK YOU and the camel you rode in on.

Okay. I've lost my temper now. I'll check back later and see what your reply is to my post.

I have just written to Pia on her 'it-aint-so' board and have told her the same thing, but in reverse: that I will be happy to submit post to her board BUT ONLY IF I AM ALLOWED THE FREE SPEECH TO CRITICIZE THE CULT-LIKE STRUCTURES AND PROCESSES NOW IN PLACE IN ELAN VITAL. Wanna bet I won't be welcome there? Me too.

Okay, fine. So maybe you will kick me off here and delete all my posts (obviously because you FEAR what I have to say). Maybe -- no, most very probably -- Pia will not welcome me either. I QUIT posting on www.enjoyinglife.org a long time ago because they censored my posts. The time I submitted a poem and they had the audacity to change the capitalization in a poem I wrote -- which I consider to be artist's license -- I have not posted there again, except for quotes in their 'Wit and Wisdom' section from time to time.

If you don't let me post here, I'll have to talk to my 'computer guru' and set up a forum on my own website. It's paid up until August or November, so at least no one will be able to kick me off of there.

My website url is: www.deradune.com

Right now it only has links to the official EV websites, because I was so upset when EV told me not to say what I felt on my own site I lost heart about using my website at all. It has been sitting like a piece of gray matter for over a year and I don't even remember how to do the few things I used to know how to do.

To the ex's who have complained about my posts: You are showing your true colors, but can you even see them for what they are? You are afraid of me and you are shaking in your boots and you are nothing but cowards to be complaining that I should be kicked off this board -- especially when you know that I am in the VAST minority of posters on this board, that I receive rank insults daily, and that you all try to present yourselves to the world as a board with FREE SPEECH?

Free Speech
Would allow my speeches too

You kick me off and you PROVE yourselves to be cult members every bit as guilty of censorship as my non-beloved Elan Vital.

Very sincerely yours,

Michele Mitchell Michael Reel Deradune (not an ex)

- - - - - - - - -

COMING SOON: WWW.DERADUNE.COM (if you don't see me here anymore)

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:23:16 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: THIS is not my LAST POST -- PLEASE READ
Message:
I'm sorry but I didn't read all of your post. I just wanted to say though, that your name, 'Michele Deradune' is a very nice name. It's a name that conjures up all sorts of images. yes, it's a very nice name.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:15:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: THIS MAY BE MY LAST POST TO YOU BECAUSE
Message:
You don't respond to my posts and seem to just want to preach to us. I am currently having to deal with a bunch of premie friends who think just like you do: that M is a saint and EV is the problem. Like you, they all regard themselves as rebels. So I have heard what you are saying from twenty different premies.

In a thread below you did respond to me (finally) with a few questions which were sincere and deserving of answers. I answered but you didn't respond so I am reposting that exchange.

You asked: ''Are you saying you believe the (hit and run) victim and/or the victim's family would have benefited more if Maharaji had gotten into some tangle with the court system there?''

I answered: ''No I don't believe that. I think Mr Rawat would have benefited by being more modest, brave, honest and remorseful. The killing was an accident. It is the lying and cover-up which bothers me.''

You ask: ''By the way, doesn't 'peasant' mean someone who lives off of working in agriculture? What do you mean when you say peasant?''

I answered: ''That's exactly what I mean by a peasant - a hardworking person, the salt of the earth who has to get up at four to milk the cows and does not have time to meditate. The Indian premies in South Africa are not exactly peasants but they are working class and don't have time to meditate. Meditation for them means putting a tilak on M's pic and a new mala and singing arti. I mean a nobody whose life is nevertheless just as precious as a wealthy Indian guru's is.''

Then I added: I just read your PS to la-ex about EV and realized that you were one of the people who, like me, ended up by having battles with EV during the whole of 2000. There are a lot of us. In San Francisco there is a renegade group of premies who have satellite and video shows in private houses and have old-fashioned satsang. We all have one thing in common: we enjoy meditation and getting high.

Where I parted company with them and with EV and with M is that I am ashamed to propagate K to my friends because of M's complicity in the deceitful revsionism and secrecy of EV. Unlike you I feel that EV is a reflection of his managerial incompetence. It took me years to finally allow myself to see that.

In a thread above discussing the connection between M and K I wrote: ''There is a saying in the gurujism tradition that the guru can be a drunken buffoon with no yogic powers at all but the faith of the devotee will transform the drunken bum into god. That says it all. Gurujism is the religion of seeing god in the master and thereby seeing god in oneself.''

The fact is I do not know for sure whether he is a drunken bum or not as I have never lived with him. And there lies the crux of the matter. In the guru tradition you live with your guru in your village and he is like your neighbor. M is simply a speck on a stage to me or a carefully edited video persona. I don't need that. K works fine without him. And I feel cleaner now that I am out of the EV cult.

So basically, I'm saying: ''Who is it that you love? Did you have a special relationship with Prempal that none of us had especially those of us who are not blonde and don't have big boobs?''

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:45:55 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Michelle dimwit Maha is Elan Vital
Message:
I wonder if you're ol' Danny Dimwit as Bin Liner suggested ? He/she could never get it through their head that Mahaha is Elan Vital.

Do you really think that there are a little bunch of premie honchos calling themselves Elan Vital and doing their own thing without Fatso's authorisation? You say you've been involved in service so you must know that everything is approved by him ???

Part of the definition of cult member or I should say symptom of being a cult member is the innability to have a single criticism of the leader.

Tell us one single fault you have ever found with Maha will you?

Michelle , I have nothing personal against you and don't mean to be offensive but you and pal danny are SO far gone in the indoctrination process that I am afraid to say that you are not ready to be a part of this forum of free thinkers. Now that's not an absolute rejection, I'm sure you'll be prepared one day but you need to listen more, to read more posts with an open heart and mind. Then you can receive the true knowledge- the true realisation - that you've been fooled .

We here won't get fooled again -Who? Us.

wishing you eventual recovery from your blindness

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:16:04 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: It's your choice michele
Message:
I think I made it pretty clear what the issue is.

Fear has nothing to do with it, you have simply overdone it with the blissful devotee routine.

Regardless of your stance vis a vis Elan Vital, this is primarily a forum for people opposed to Maharaji and while we are happy to debate your support of him, we do not wish to be flooded with paragraph after paragraph of nauseatingly joyful glory-singing. What part of that don't you understand?

So stay and respect the parameters given, or leave, I doubt many here will shed tears either way.

Oh, and I think it fair to mention that this recent appearance of yours as banana bai, Christian Star and Michele is not your first, is it? You talk of us showing our true colors, how about we show your 'true color', hmmmm?

FA

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:45:54 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: I'm right with you, FA
Message:
She also sounds suspiciously like someone who claimed (about a month or two ago) to be the child of premie and was going on about how great K and M were and how we could all get stuffed. It was around the time that Abi was posting a lot.

There's no reason to put up with this stuff. It's another form of trollhood. If she can quit foaming at the mouth in praise of the Rat, she can stay. Or go. Whatever. I'm with you.

She's out of control. I hope for her sake she can settle down, and I wish her well.

On another note, why is Milli tolerated here? Is it because he's been given his limits and keeps carefully within them, or is it because he eventually goes away, so there's no use being heavy handed? Just curious. He said something very insulting to me after I posted about my father's death process, in a thread below started by Joe, on the Maharaji Breath religion. When pressed, he did an offhanded apology, but just like Abi and Susan, I think these types of personal affronts should not be tolerated. You notice neither Abi or Susan are posting here lately. He's such a troll. Why do we bother with him?

--f

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:06:13 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Mili is under consideration
Message:
We're aware of how obnoxious he can be and are reviewing his posting priveleges currently.

FA

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:00:34 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Francesca, my thoughts exactly!
Message:
Hi Sweetie,

I thought exactly the same thing after reading a few of her posts, but wanted to give some time to see how it played out.

Isn't it funny she's accusing us of being cowards?

Be well,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:02:10 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Was just wondering where you were silent one
Message:
But I was offline myself at the 2nd funeral service (and last) for my father. This one was in his hometown, where he lived all his life except for the 3 months preceding his death.

Back to Deradune, I too hoped she'd calm down, but her idea of free speech is having a bulletin board where you can say anything you want, rather than to stay on the topic of the board. If she wants to start her own, at least that's putting her money where her mouth is.

People get on forums because they want to discuss certain topics, because we only have so much time in the day! A forum that my husband reads on nostalgia drag racing recently had to upgrade their sofware and scripts because they had no ability to block posters, and after a couple of years of it, the host almost bagged the whole thing.

Love, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:31:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: I can take a hint -- we talking 'Red Heels'?
Message:
Gerry hinted at this too. Now that I think of it, I see a simlarity. Was that you, Michele?
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 09:42:05 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, 'Red Heels' / 'Red Heart' etc..
Message:
Rings true to me, Jim - the same preachiness and unwillingness to engage with those who take the trouble to repond to her - or think properly about questions raised. Also the monicker-switching fits.

It is unlikely any of the current FA gang will be able to confirm this, since we're talking about three years ago - back in the forum III days. I wonder who else she has been in the gap between Red and Christian Star. (Not that it really matters, of course. But care to own up, Michelle? - just to show 'good faith'?)

But it would be interesting to know how EV will deal with her being here under her own name.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:23:18 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Couldn't be fucking danny , could it ?(nt)
Message:
g
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:21:31 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: :)) spill the beans FA who else is she?? (NT)
Message:
zz
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:12:37 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: I support banana...I don't like banana republics..
Message:
Hey Michelle-

I have thoroughly enjoyed your presence on this forum.
I think it generally provides interesting and energizing dialogue.
And if someone doesn't like your perspective, they don't have to read or respond to your posts.

It is natural that if you start 'giving satsang' on EPO, it might meet with criticism...kind of like talking about how great it is to drink at an AA meeting....you should be prepared for stuff like that to come up at times....

But, that said, I think you should continue, and be allowed to continue, if that is what you want.
Also, your idea of another forum might be just great.
Consider it.

La-ex (an ex)
Don't forget, bananas have a thick skin, but also can bruise easily...

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:12:53 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Open notes to la-ex and Jim
Message:
Oh, la, it's good to hear from you. I really must run off now and I think I'll not stay here since indeed my presence is disturbing people who are or have felt so much pain in their lives. Bananas bruise, and even mean-sounding exes do too!

I hope you will please come post on my 'Free Speech Forum' when I have it up. I don't have any idea how long that will take, hopefully not too long. And this way people who hate to read my post don't have to go there at all, ever. That way we'll all be happy, no?

(Open Note to Jim: yes, I posted on this forum a couple years back under other names: red heels, no heels and Happy Hedonist. I did not wish to make my identity public if people were going to know that was me, but since you have deemed it is a good thing to disregard my wishes on that, well fine. I don't give shit. Shoot, you all diss Maharaji so much that I figure I'll be in GREAT company. Insults? Coming from you -- I shall consider nothing less than an honor.)

Too bad you can't get hold of the stripper video I made. But you can't, so nah-nah-nah-nah-nah.

Joy: Sorry I lied to you and wouldn't admit to you, long ago when you asked, that I was red heels. I was embarrassed for people to learn of my somewhat whorish sexual proclivities. At least, that it what it will seem like to sexually repressed people, and from what I have read on this forum I do sincerely believe there a few people here who are extremely repressed sexually.

Michele Deradune (banana bye -- I promise!) (not an ex)

HOPEFULLY COMING SOON (my chance to plug it here):

FREE SPEECH FORUM coming to a website near you: www.deradune.com

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:05:52 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: You've slung enough insults yourself
Message:
If you read your own posts, your tone is as awful as any you claim to have been on the receiving end of.

So please stop yer whining, and start 'enjoying life.'

Cheers and tata,
==f

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:59:03 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: I'm all for freedom of speech myself so I ....
Message:

wouldn't want to see yours gagged even though I don't agree with your point of view re the little fat fuck aka Mr.Rawat , but I do find your motive for coming here a bit opaque .

I tend to a suspicious temperment with a touch of paranoia to give it a bit of zing which often leads me to jump to conclusions so you'll have to bear that in mind in what follows.

You 1st pitched up here as Christian Star , a zany though eloquent believer in flying saucers . I thought at the time that you might be another well known electronic entity who was then on holiday , but I was mistaken .

Did you do that because you believe that crap , or because you wanted to draw pointy heads out of the woodwork so anyone visiting the forum at that time would think 'who the fuck are these people , they're crackers '?

I'll skip the banana bai period of your evolution & come to the present , Michele D.

From what I gather the LFF has taken to badmouthing EV at events : now this is something he's always done on & off so nothing new behaviour wise there , but aren't you lucky that his devious strategy fits your mindset like a glove ?

I mean there he is saying 'it wasn't me guv ' , & there you are saying the same .

Don't get me wrong I wasn't one of the people who complained , why do that ? , I'm all for premie input , it racks up the entertainment value which apart from wanting to see Rawat out of the god business is my motive for coming here .

There's nothing worth watching on TV.

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:48:49 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: MY LAST POST -- PLEASE READ...
Message:
Look, being listened to is a great feeling, and one that M doesn't give premies. But I have heard your arguments that 'it's not his fault' for about 29 years. I even said those things myself for most of that time, until the penny finally dropped. You just annoy me because you spout theories from my past, when I'm trying to move on and re-discover the truth. Having to believe that m is someone special enough to be my master while at the same time allowing that he can't teach his closest followers the most basic lessons in decency and humanity was a great strain on me, and used up alot of energy. When you're a recovering alcoholic, you don't want to mix with your old mates down the pub. You've not made the connection between m and his organisation yet. I hope you will one day. Till then, don't be surprised when we want to keep clear of anyone who still isn't seeing what's glaringly obvious to most of us - that m and his mission are intimately connected, he is in control of the policies and he is responsible. Otherwise he's not much of a leader really, is he? EV is him at the moment, as he tries to get a grip on a failing enterprise that's run its course.

All genuine, original thinking is welcome here as far as I'm concerned, not the tired old 'satsang' of last week, last year or any other time from my cult-drenched past. Don't I deserve a break from all that third-party theorising now? I've listened to it over half my life, now I'm here for a refreshing change. You're in between being a premie and an ex, very frustrating, not our fault!

All the best in your quest to be heard.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:39:47 (GMT)
From: SB/Silvia
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Fake. NT OUT
Message:
aha
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:23:29 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: THIS MAY BE MY LAST POST -- PLEASE READ
Message:
I'm certainly not afraid of you or your message and I don't think anyone else here is either.It's just nauseating not frightening. You must think we've never been premies and can't discern k bullshit.

I'm all for free speech ( I dont particularly want you thrown off the forum nor have I called for it ) ....as I'm into free speech ....I've felt free to say what a load of old TRIPE you spew out.

That's all. Youve told us youre still into Rawat .....fair enough .....it's your choice.....your free to make up your own mind. It makes NO difference to me one way or the other. However, this is EX-PREMIE.ORG..... you are a GUEST .......do you always say to your hosts ' fuck you ....I cant speak my mind '. YOU HAVE MORE FREEDOM HERE THAN YOU'LL GET IN ANY RAWAT SET UP .....AND YOU KNOW IT ......SO YOU TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT !!

I'd like to speak my mind omn enjoyinglife.org or www.itaintso.org .....just as a GUEST you understand. Hey do you think they'll let me????????????????????????

I repeat what I said in another post ......grow up will ya ....stop feeling so sorry for yourself

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:12:41 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Not fear, boredom
Message:
Michele:

We don't fear you at all; I find guru worship boring and annoying. I was hoping you'd calm down, but I guess not. (I'm still hoping, though ;-) If you can't understand that Maharaji and only Maharaji runs EV, you are in denial. During all my years as a premie I thought I was a 'rebel.' If M is so great, why does he leave idiots running 'his' show SINCE THE EARLY 1970s???

But the premies that I know the closest are in denial on that too. They think they are 'rebels' as well, and one can't stomach EV. The only thing keeping you from your dear guru is the fence of people he built himself, with his direction, his agya and his commands.

So is Maharaji a poor deluded pawn of EV and formerly DLM? A fool who has been lead around by his nose since he was 13?? I wouldn't want to follow someone who can't even have some sense about his own organization. Think about it girl, and go ahead and start your own website. I do hope there is somewhere you can express yourself. However, we don't want this site full of satsang. We have other things to discuss!

Namaste, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:08:26 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: THIS MAY BE MY LAST POST -- PLEASE READ
Message:
Athough I did not agree with a lot of things you posted I did enjoy the lively discussion, with a lot of quality posts in it. We do get very sick when you elaborate about your love for rawat, or vice versa. That is because we do feel cheated and robbed of time, money and the very best of our intensions. We do hold rawat responsible, because over time he should have learned to correct all the exesses in the organisation. Guru or teacher, there is no excuse for this degree of mismanagement.
I will not even mention the very unexemplary lifestyle of the master here, which does give us a lot of reasons to be upset, because of the double standards, the hypocracy etc. It also makes it impossible to see rawat as a victim of overambitious higher echelon premies in EV. It is not possible to judge the master without his fruits, and I do mean the whole picture.
The inner experience is completely independent of the person of rawat, and one day you might find out that the guru you idealize is nonexistent, just a mental projection you project onto the person of rawat
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:55:24 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Your last post
Message:
Who's afraid of the big bad wolf? Certainly not little RED riding hood.

If you turn on your HEELS and leave, where will you go to speak your HEART?

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:10:25 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Her last post
Message:
Man I feel sorry for those guys. No place to turn to. But hey this girl remind me of Sandy a year ago. Wanting but not willing.

I must say I've been had few realizations today. first am involved in a movement lead by JIM, I am a dog and now this. May Alaah guide me on the straight path.

Micheal, no one is telling you not to post or go away. You are expecting a listening audiance, your not going to get it behaving like a brat. You got to roll in the mud a bit.

Salam

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:17:53 (GMT)
From: Silvita
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam, you are kidding, right?
Message:
I must say I've been had few realizations today. first am involved in a movement lead by JIM, I am a dog and now this. May Alaah guide me on the straight path.

I have my heart for him, he is gutsy and logical, well, most of the time and his posts were what I came to read for the longest time before leaving gurushi; I feel my eyes got open because of the way he wrote. Why do you 'hate' him? Just curious. i'm asking hoonestly. I want to know because maybe I missed something and I like you both.

I love you Salam! Doing good? My love 2 u!

silvia

PS:'They' love it when WE fight.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:14:26 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Silvita
Subject: what's the question?
Message:
Well, Pia says we are dogs on her site. Jim is our leader. And Micheal is preaching us. I think that is a lot reasons for Alaah to interviene, don't you recon?

Am up and about, here and there, doing this breaking that, what about you?

love
Salam

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:33:05 (GMT)
From: S
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I got it
Message:
only one ALA. ;) Agree.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:50:24 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Question, Michele
Message:
Who were the people at Elan Vital who told you that you couldn't address Maharaji on your own website? And who was the PR person who didn't even want to read what you had written? And how can EV stop you from saying on the internet whatever you want? Certainly they have no legal right to control anything you say.

What do you think are the motivations of the EV PR team to try to keep people from talking about Maharaji on the internet? Whay do you think they care so much about that?

And with that in mind, I can't imagine they are thrilled about Pia's website either. Can you?

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:20:53 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Question, Michele
Message:
I complained to the National Elan Vital person when a regional Elan Vital PR person 'laid a guilt trip on me' (but did not and of course could not command me) not to write about Maharaji on my own website.

The National PR person was just like you: she wanted to know his name so that she could 'talk to him.' She did not like the way he handled me. But I refused to give her his name because it if my firm belief that a faulty structure such as that set up in much of Elan Vital, including PR, is not willing to look at its own structures, policies and processes as being at fault: rather, they wanted it to be a PERSON to blame. For me, it is not this person or that person that is the point: the point is, all those PR people really THINK they are serving Maharaji by treating premies like they have no individual rights to free speech. Period. As I told the national head of PR, 'The point is not WHO sent me the offending e-mail in Elan Vital. The point is that he really felt he was doing the right thing: he was towing the party line as he understood it from who knows how many PR conference calls, e-mails and meetings.' I wanted her to look at changing the SYSTEM. She let me know that she was not interested in changing the system, thought it was fine, and was sorry I wouldn't tell her his name so that she could straighten him out.

I also wrote back to him, the offending regional PR person, and told him how hurt and upset I had been by his letter. Know what he said? Something like, 'If I had to write that letter to you again, I wouldn't change a thing.' Totally self-righteous pompitude. But I am not a revengeful person and naming him would serve zero useful purpose.

Elan Vital has understandable reasons for not wanting people to say anything they want on the Internet. They don't want people to misrepresent Maharaji. But: Hellooooo. By putting out a mandate of voluntary compliance to such a gag order, they are muting the only voices who really appreciate Maharaji.

It is my firm conviction that if premies were not voluntarily complying to the belief that they are pleasing Elan Vital -- and thereby pleasing Maharaji -- by keeping their mouths shut, they would be jabbering away -- a LOT. You would have seen a DELUGE of premie posts here like a tidal wave you have seen only in your worst nightmares (those of you who consider premies to be part and parcel of your nightmares).

No, Elan Vital has no legal control over me and I can post whatever I want on my website. However Elan Vital knew me to be a 'devoted premie' who wanted to cooperate with them and please Maharaji, and they took advantage of the psychological effect that it had on me for them to ask me not to post about Maharaji on my website. They were breaking my spirit, and they KNEW it.

Maharaji is not about breaking my spirit.

Okay, let me talk about this too: agya.

Maharaji is called different labels in Hindi, English and other languages, including Satguru, which was one of his first titles, because he did after all start in India, and in India they speak Hindi, and Satguru is a Hindi word with no English equivalent. Some feel the English equivalent is 'Master.' I agree and disagree. In England that word is probably okay; in America 'Master' means a lot of other things too. But I digress...let me get back to agya.

Agya, as defined by Maharaji, is the 'Master's' direction to his students/followers/premies on how to realize this Knowledge in their own lives. Agya is: listen to the Satguru/Teacher/Master, i.e., listen to Maharaji, on a regular basis; practice the Knowledge, once you have received that gift from him, at least one hour daily; and participate in some way -- the highest form of participation being to tell others about Maharaji and Knowledge. End. Finis. That's all the agya and that's all he wrote.

Now, that said, Maharaji has a lot of personal opinions on a lot of things, as we all do. Having listened to him for a very long time, I can say that I agree with most of his opinions about an awful lot of things. But I do not agree with everything he says. Nor do other premies. Now, some premies choose to disagree with him from time to time and others choose to be 'yes men.' You know who you are.

Me, if I were Maharaji, I would hate being surrounded by 'yes men' but I would want to be around people who gave their honest opinions, even when they disagreed. But what do I know? I have no idea what it must be like to be in his position, and I definitely would not ever want to find out. I know it is not for the faint of heart. He has every right to surround himself with people who insulate him things. He needs to do that to a certain extent. We all know what happens to celebrities who don't learn to use bodyguards and close their shutters.

At the same time, I can only be me. Regarding the value of Elan Vital as it pertains to the way it 'handles' the premies, I boldly disagree and argue with Maharaji. YET I am still following agya, because agya does not mean that I agree to everything he ever says; agya means I do what a premie must do to practice and enjoy Knowledge.

Okay. I've got to go now. We'll see what happens. I'm not certain I will put up anything on my website even if I am kicked off of here. I'll wait yet a while and see what's going on and how I feel. This has all been very energizing up to now, but I feel now that it is wearing me out.

Take care,

and thanks for asking,

Michele (not an ex)

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:27:41 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Jeez the penny just dropped
Message:
Michele is part of the maha's new spin to distance himself from Elan Vital!

It is so obvious now - the maha has been slagging off Elan Vital for some time now, setting himself apart bit by bit as The Master and letting EV take the fall as The Cult.

So what better way to reinforce that than to have a professional writer like Michele step up to the mike and declare her love for him and disgust at them?

Busted!!!!

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:39:43 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Bingo Bazza! - Freakin' brilliant!
Message:
Yours is a sly twist on this tale Bazza. All of those non-atomic-clock-synchronized and totally unorganized EV people have certainly made a mess of propagation haven't they? Hmmm, let's see what to do? Ah yes... can the whole organization and go direct via satellite satsang and auto knowledge and standing deduction from credit cards in US funds only. Freakin' brilliant, man! EV will go the way of those Hindu-concept-driven-saved-from-the-drug-culture-ashrams and Pia's site is the futile and final Charge of the K-Lite Brigade.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:51:52 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re. the credit cards, do you know that if ..
Message:
you want to cancel a standing order paid by credit card, the beneficiary fo the payment has to cancel the payment, it's not enough just to tell your credit card company you don't want to pay any more. That's a bit scary if EV are the ones taking the money - if they decide to keep on taking it they can! It's a guaranteed payment. I bet not a lot of people know that. If they change their address and phone/contact, they've got a good few months collecting before anyone can do anything about it.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:52:58 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Question, Michele
Message:
Michele:

It is my firm conviction that if premies were not voluntarily complying to the belief that they are pleasing Elan Vital -- and thereby pleasing Maharaji -- by keeping their mouths shut, they would be jabbering away -- a LOT. You would have seen a DELUGE of premie posts here like a tidal wave you have seen only in your worst nightmares (those of you who consider premies to be part and parcel of your nightmares).

You're a little confused. Think about it. This crap has been going on for over 30 years. That's 30 YEARS! If Maharaji hasn't had the time, inclination, or personal influence or power to stop it then he's not much of a 'leader.' The only other possibility is that he knows about it and *approves*, at least to the extent that he knows it serves his ends. And quite apart from the evidence provided by the cult-like behavior of EV there's the personal behavior of Maharaji... which, if anything, is MUCH WORSE. So, what you need to consider is your own cult-like behavior, in the sense that you persistently and deliberately overlook the obvious. Your subjective assessments have been warped and cultivated to the purposes of Maharaji and his little family business. Wake up and smell the coffee.

No one here is afraid of you Michele. We've been on our own for a long time. I find it stultifying to read Dettmers' posts about Maharaji, let alone yours. The difference is that Dettmers' posts are about something real, whereas yours are mostly fantasy.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:35:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Are you mad?
Message:
This is like Alice in Wonderland, Michelle. To even suggest that EV is anything but a bunch of silly cult members doing their master's bidding is crazy. Sheer, unadulterated nonsense. Not to mention insulting in the extreme to m's intelligence.

But that's the best you can do, isn't it?

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:13:16 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Michelle
Subject: I support Michelle's contributions
Message:
At the top of this page it says : 'Any and everything about Maharaji and his followers' so I welcome her posts as fuel for conversation.

Michelle, you bring a unique perspective that has generated some interesting threads. I believe as your 'can of worms' unravels you will have much to contribute. I agree with FA that this is not the ideal place for boiler plate satsang although if you want to express your affection for M, caveat emptor.

One netiquette point. If you are going to post such elaborate and long posts and especially make sweeping allegations as you did below, please have the courtesy to monitor and respond to replies to your posts. You inaccurately portrayed me and never acknowledged my complaint. Pay some attention to this as a place of conversation and not sermons.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:13:47 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Anything and everything about Maharaji and his
Message:
followers doesn't necessarily mean that premies who are spouting pro Maha propoganda for the whole world to see shouldn't be challenged.

I've seen this so many times that certain pwks are only here to spout the party line and do not really have an interest in honest discussion.

I'm not against premies posting here if they want some real dialogue , after all many of us were still involved to varying degrees when we first came on.

I remember that one of my reasons for posting here as a premie was to counteract the shockingly bad perspective of mariarchi so publicly displayed on EPO.

I think that Michele's SOLE reason is to try and show Maha in a shining light to the world , that's all - and I guess I resent that . He has enough websites with his praises being sung . The negative reaction that she gets is a natural one for many of us here and that's par for the course.

I have never called for the banning of anyone from this forum and I am not doing so in Michelle's case. I will just politely request her to take her garbage somewhere else and not preach that old crap here.

Stev M

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:41:39 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: Steve M
Subject: Anything and everything about Maharaji and his
Message:
My point exactly, Steve. ANYBODY is allowed till the entry page 'instructions' are changed. Outing people, overt threats, and more than 1 handle seem to be the only rules. If a poster doesn't like somebody else's post - challange them in a reply! without flaming them if your degree of anger allows you to not be rude, but flaming if you must. That flaming happens some, especially to premies spouting off, is addressed in the entry page. That's kosher.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:24:43 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Steve M
Subject: Right on Steve (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:37:05 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I support Michelle's contributions
Message:
I, too, support her being allowed to be here. Premies are specifically invited on the entry page, are not requested not to commit satsang and, in fact, are just warned not to be too sensitive if they get flamed.

Yet, Michelle, I also support the right, not privilegd, of the vast majority of participants here to not be subject to discourse the exact opposite of the purpose of this forum. That is just plain old respect.

So I don't feel FA should threaten her for doing what FA's own writing of the text of the entry page led her to feel was OK... shame on you, FA...

The text on the entry page should be changed to address the issue, she should be told she is welcome but she should tone it down, and FA should apologize to her. IMO

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:25:31 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I support Michelle's contributions
Message:
I am sorry I did not see your post, Richard. The format of this website tires me. Although simple to navigate, it is tiring to me, and after all, I have only been posting here under my real name for a few days and have not had a chance to get into any kind of rhythm with this format. It takes me some time to figure out how to go about it.

Strange you said I misrepresented you because all I said was that I thought you were tall, brown hair and wire-rimmed glasses, and even that I said with a question mark. Okay, I will go read your post and respond to it.

Moment by moment, it is becoming entirely un-fun to post here anymore. But thank you for your support of my being allowed to do so.

Michele (not an ex)

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:06:35 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: un-fun? You surely didn't expect a round..
Message:
of applause bringing cult-think here with you? Have a break and do some THINKING - you have never yet responded to any real point that anyone's brought up, as far as I know. It's very tiring talking to some-one so evasive, you know - you're not the only one who's fed up! But it's not personal, so stop feeling sorry for yourself - this is the real world of conflict and there's no guru to tell you how to handle this - so it's challenging for you. That's all. No big deal, we all need a rest from here from time to time.

Ciao.

P>S> I think the Forum Administrators do a great job of allowing freedom of speech while protecting the interests of the ex-premies WHOSE SITE THIS IS!!!!!!!!

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:35:47 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: I support Michelle's contributions
Message:
Don't want to derail this thread with my own pickiness - I was just making a point about common courtesy. There is a huge amount to wade through here and it was certainly energetically cathartic to post under my own name at first, too. No I wasn't offended by you saying I wore wire-rimmed glasses. ;>) Here is the thread below:

Jim -:- Nostalgia is indiscriminate -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 19:00:21

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:22:07 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: They're finally responding
Message:
See their new it aint so website.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:25:29 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Way
Subject: It Ain't Necessarily So, Mkay
Message:
The Enlish isn't great but at least it's understandable, unlike certain representatives of God who I've had the great misfortune to encounter.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:58:13 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Let's have a contest
Message:
Let's see who the first EX is to be able to write an acceptable post that Pia the Censor actually posts.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:19:28 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: They're finally responding
Message:
Can you believe it? The condition to post is based on valuing Knowledge but not the TRUTH....no no no.

If you don't wax eloquently about fatface fuckershitforbrains-You won't get your post selected.

In other words, Premies who ask pointed questions won't have their comments appear, Very Very Very interesting.

My take: Premies who do not get their questions posted will soon wake up. I think they are fixing the noose, heehee

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:02:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Ain't it his own damn fault?
Message:
Assume, for argument's sake, that there is, in fact, some graytones in this picture that we, rabid so-called 'ex-premies', don't appreciate. Hell, rightly or wrongly, we're angry. Angry people sometimes polarize issues, demonize opponents, exaggerate, condemn and complain, etc. Maybe that's us. Maybe Maharaji's got a really good answer for some of our criticisms. Maybe he's not the venal monster we've come to see him as.

Maybe.

But why doesn't he just talk with us then? Wouldn't that be the simplest way for him to clear things up? You know, it's not as if we're not 'stakeholders', as they say nowadays. We paid to play, all of us for years, some of us for decades. You'd think we'd be entitled to some interaction, wouldn't you? At least a couple of questions answered.

But, no, that's not possible with Mr. 'NEVER-question-the-purity-of-the-master'. Instead, we get an insulting pack of feckless lies on EV's FAQ page and that's it. And what's worse, we now know thanks to Michelle, that EV's a rogue organization that in no way speaks for Maharaji in any event!

If I were a god-fearing man, it'd be enough to drive me to drink. Thankfully, I'm not so I'll just whisper a silent prayer when no one's listening.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:10:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: For the record, I was a grunt, no PAM, grunt
Message:
Pia's site says the following:

'The source of most of the attacks on Maharaji and his work comes from a small group of former students led by several who had positions of major responsibility in the organization. Michael Dettmers, Michael Donner, Jim Heller, and Jean-Michel Kahn.

All of these now claim that they were unwittingly working for a cult while in fact they were instrumental in forming and implementing the very organizational policies and practices they are now criticizing.

We view their desire to spread rumors and false allegations against Maharaji and Elan Vital at best as a blatant avoidance of personal responsibility for their former actions and choices.

At worst, it is the cruel revenge of frustrated ex-lovers. If there was a cult in those days, it existed in the minds of people like this fueled by an ambition to make Maharaji and his work conform to their own private visions. ''

Honoured, I'm sure, but in the interest of historical accuracy, I have to admit, I was a mere frontline ashram premie, nothing more. Yes, I'm thinking of suing. No one's ever called me cruel before.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:42:28 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim the 2nd to last paragraph has quite a spin nt
Message:
rr
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:39:51 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I protest
Message:
And I think Katie and Brian should protest too. What are we, chopped liver?

I can't believe we didn't at least merit a mention as one of the cruel and embittered ex-lovers trying to avoid responsbility on Pia's website. We just can't seem to get a break.

And if I was from the UK or Australia, I would be really miffed. Not a mention of any ex from those countries. I think it's discrimination.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 19:49:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe? Joe who? (nt)
Message:
ffffff
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:32:37 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: yeah Joe you are a hate monger too!
Message:
I know that I am full of hate emanating everywhere. Just driven by hate. And I personally created the cult despite that poor poor Guru's protestations. When I lined up for darhsan he said, you wanna WHAT? kiss my feet....And when I sang arti I missed the part where he winked and said 'just a joke'.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:47:33 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Too funny, Joe!
Message:
I remembered the 'Oy Veh' but forgot the 'chopped liver' :).

Yes, I think we should write an official letter of complaint on behalf of you, me, Brian, Anth, Marianne, and anyone else here who feels that they are one of the ringleaders of the 'embittered ex-lovers'.

Love,
Katie
(the real brains behind the operation - snicker!)

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:07:44 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: We MUST sue lard
Message:
Who does he think he is???

You are right. Obviously he's done it again. I bet it was HIS idea to put sites to speak bad about us. Poor resource of explanation: Premies do not have a working brain anyway. They come and make him look more and more horrible. Thanks premies. More power to us, ex-premies of the biggest 'GOD' liar I ever heard of. I bet he can lie looking at your eyes too. The man of no conscience...

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:49:17 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: How do Pauline Premie+TED F feel about all this?nt
Message:
rr
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:23:02 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: At least Rawat finally knows your name! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:34:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: At least I've got one! nt
Message:
hhhhhh
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:19:59 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: How quick this site poped up
Message:
It was only a little while ago that these things have taken place, but look at it, it has full English translation with othere refrences. No ain't so person works for the mob.

She forgot to tell us why rawat tried to go through the airport using an Indian passport or why he diverted his flight.

Any just for calling me a dog, she is a bitch.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:44:17 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: it-aint-so.org registered on May 9
Message:
'Pia Ji' registered the domain name 'it-aint-so.org' on May 9, 2001.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:17:30 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Pia, from Denmark, knows English slang?...
Message:
I find it a little hard to believe that Pia, on her own, decided to start this web site. She is from Denmark, it is a bit unlikely that she would know what 'aint' means. This domain name is most likely not her idea and I don't think this site is either. Pia (supposedly) writes:

'I launch this site as an individual, at my own expense, and not as a representative or agent of any organisation or other person than myself. I am committed to protecting its independence as well as the anonymity of those who request it.'

I consider this to be very misleading wording.

Pia (supposedly) writes:

'...We ask the exes to do the same - especially those who were in positions of responsibility within the organisation.'

What organisation? There IS no organisation, www.ex-premie.org is ONLY the name of a web site.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:18:20 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Organisation - I think she means Dettmers and J-M
Message:
and the old DLM (which as we all know was just another name for miragey's cult, now re-named Elan Vital.) That's what I understood from that reference, anyway. Maybe wrong.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:31:57 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Well actually G...(ot)
Message:
Many Danes, Swedes and Dutch speak better English than yours truly :))

They learn English from an early age.....( well I guess their Idiomatic English is slightly off) but ' aint ' would be well within their ken.

Some Dutch Universities conduct whole courses in English . I think all three countries have access to British tv and radio....

and it is a world language ...well American English is I guess .... with British English close behind.

Just being fair :))

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 00:43:52 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: That makes sense. NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:00:50 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: 'This is a call for people who know' miragey? EPO!
Message:
Pia: 'This is a call for people who know Maharaji'

Well, some of those so-called 'hateful' ex-premies spreading 'lies' are the very people who actually 'know' miragey - very very well.

Pia: 'I have known Maharaji most of my life.' Ok, Pia, when's the last time you sat down to dinner with him, or fired up a doobie, or got drunk together, or got laid by him, or took the fall for his vehicular manslaughter, or cooked the financial books, or shredded the docs, or shared homophobic jokes, or spent a weekend on the Seva [his] yacht? How often does he phone or email you? What did he buy you for Christmas last year?

Like, 'I have known' Pia Zadora most of my life. Pia was my friend, and frankly, my dear, you are no Pia Zadora.

The truth is: most premies [er, servants of the living Lord, er devotees, er 'students' now] do NOT 'know' miragey. They only 'know' a carefully controlled and censored image of miragey, via his public speeches, and perhaps some minimal or occasional contact [among the org honchos or residence student-servants].

Who was around him a lot - and who actually 'knew' what he was like off-stage and behind-the-scenes in real life? Mishler, Donner, Dettmers, et al.

What premies [er, students] know is the public mirage and the concepts that have been implanted and reinforced in their brains through cult indoctrination.

Hey, you like meditation? You can meditate, sure. But you don't need 'him'. What does 'he' have to do with universal techniques that some others teach without attachment to them, or that can be found in books? So, consciously observe and follow the flow of your breath already. But, don't be blind and follow/grovel before leaders - instead, you better check your parking meters!

LOL

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:33:25 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: i just posted this there
Message:
'it is a noble and well meant effort to speak up in defense of someone, but there is also a psychological process that becomes visible in the field of counseling anyone who has had a relationship with an alcoholic, addict or abuser, and that phenomenon is known as 'enabling'. It is characterized by ameliorating, providing and protecting the dysfunctional person from the consequences of their actions, and it perpetuates the damage the addict is committing to themselves, their immediate relations, and to the world at large.
It is a deadly symbiosis. The enabler feels that their well being is inextricably linked to the addict and fears losing the addict's support. At the same time they also believe that they could not live life without the addict, they may also believe that if they tried to leave, terrible things would happen--either to them or to the object of their efforts. They will defend their role or acts and insist that they do it out of love for the addict.
Time and experience, in every 12 step group, in every rehabilitation program, in every death, have ultimately brought the irrevocable truth to light: that no one can help the addict but the addict themselves, that no one can help the enabler but the enabler themsleves, that addictions ruin lives, that addictions are escapes from facing problems where they need to be faced, that protecting the addict from their consequences does them no favors; it simply allows them to repeat the same irresponible escapes again. No progress is made until the enabler finds the courage to stop enabling the addict and to recover their own integrity. No progress is made until the addict finds the courage to face life without their crutches, their escapes, their usery of enablers and innocents, and faces the truth.
I counted myself as one of Maharaji's supporters until october of 2000. My 28th anniversary of receiving Knowledge was two weeks ago. I never stopped practicing. Lest anyone out there think I never 'had the experience', I certainly did.
What changed my mind about Maharaji was not rumor, gossip, innuendo or lies. What changed my mind were facts: documents filed with the requisite reporting agencies, due in keeping with Law; first person reports of participants and eyewitnesses, present at the episodes recorded; correspondence in the original hand of maharaji's wife; and personal experience.
I am by nature a methodical, prudent, careful, mindful individual. I am not prone to believe the first thing I hear about a situation. I research. I wait. I watch. I listen. I entertain all possible views given. I test. And I give any proposal a fair and genuine chance to display itself fully before I reach a decision on it.
And I am sorry to have to say that on this particular subject, after 27 years of doing everything that was indicated to do, I finally had to stop. I realized that Maharaji is an addict and an abuser, that he is an individual without conscience, moral rectitude, or honor, and that there is an insidious corruption at the very heart of him, his promises, his lifestyle, his phyche, and by necessity,that corruption has passed by contagion to all of his enablers.
In order to recover my integrity, I had to break off my association to him.
The jilted lover syndrome you refer to has valid emotional roots. When one gives all of one's love to someone in complete faith, accepts their word and has every doubt dismissed without honorable discussion, and after 27 years, learns of volumes of activity that the object of their love has been deliberately concealing from them, one realizes that one is not loved in return, but has been used. rage is valid. anger is valid. sorrow is valid. grief is valid. truth is valid. They are all valid stages of recovering one's sense of value as a human being in one's own right. They restore the healthy boundaries that clearly define oneself as worthy of genuine respect.
you have structured this as an open forum. I hope that you truly are interested in making this a place of fearless, truthful and honest examination for all voices, pro and con, who wish to make their views and convictions known here. I do hope that rather than censor and homogenize, edit, falsify and sterilize this board, the same way that is done at enjoyinglife and elanvital and maharaji dot org, that you have the adult clarity and strength to let the complete picture emerge in all its truth, whatever it may show itself to be. Only if all voices are allowed to speak, will the entire truth emerge.
Ex-Premie dot org is not ' a hate group', as you have characterized it. It is not a group at all. It was originally started as a bulletin board by one man, who wanted to find old friends he had known when he was practicing Knowledge, and figured that the internet was the logical place to ask if anyone else wanted to talk about it too. Over time, others found the board and enjoyed the ability to talk to people to whom they did not have to explain their involvement, as it was embarassing and difficult to explain to people who had never known the phenomenon. Of course in that free exchange, stories were bound to come out! Accounts, conversations, experiences,--and yes, rumors too, all were a valid and welcome part of postings among equals. Everyone has the right to tell their story and to voice their viewpoints and thoughts and feelings.
I feel that your site is a good thing. For too long there has been overcontrol and silencing of spontaneous discussion about this. There ought to be nothing to fear about it. If someone has fears, I submit that they need to examine their motives for that. If something cannot stand the light of day, it needs to be made clean and right.
And as for fixing the blame, that is a multibillion dollar business that keeps the courts in this litigious society churning. It is not the way to get to solutions; it only springs up when responsibility is not honored.'
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:03:24 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: i just posted this there
Message:
Very well written. But please note, this Pia person DOESN'T offer it as a 'open Forum', but rather as a forum to publish posts in keeping with their perspective, philosophy and belief. If posts like yours are never published they are just doing what they say they are doing.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:33:13 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: This is FANTASTIC
Message:
I can't believe this woman is actually doing this, but it's really, really great.

I note that the 'two' others involved in her 'group' are so committed to this that they won't even use their names on the website. They are completely anonymous. That's so funny. They are just so committed and honest and sincere. Speaks volumes.

Isn't it also interesting that Pia doesn't bother to respond to ANY of the criticisms of Maharaji. She just dishonestly calls them 'hate' without even saying what the are.

EPO continues to stir the mix and like La-ex says, this is getting interesting.

Pia doesn't understand that open discussion is death to Maharaji's cult. Let the debate begin!

Thanks, Way.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:12:40 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Oh what a tangled web we weave, when our intent .
Message:
is to deceive...

This is really, really interesting....is this site sponsored by Pia, really her own independent site, or is M/EV also involved?

Either way, if it is factual information and a spirited debate concerning what is true vs. what is not true, this is going to get interesting...

An honest debate about all the issues could really help.
However, I can't imagine how Pia or M/EV can really hold their own without looking like total fools.
This new site could unwittingly be the catalyst to the discussion we have been looking for, for a long time.

A point/counterpoint discussion would be very helpful for everyone concerned...
I wonder what M is thinking about all of this?

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:10:12 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: I have questions ???
Message:
Notice the POP UP which comes up once you have logged onto Pias site :

'If you have reached this site in an attempt to find

information about Maharaji, his message or

Knowledge, please visit Maharaji's or Elan Vital's site.'

- are they trying to divert premies and especially aspirants and interested persons from getting involved in the whole mess ??

Has this pop up been put onto Pias site because it is already highly synchronised ? Or perhaps because they would rather distance themselves from it .

i wonder how authorised pias website is ? I would place a bet that it is done with agreement.. or even at the request of the powers that be.

How do Messers Dettmers and Donner feel about what has been done and said ?

Love to all

Loafie

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:12:50 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: I got the same message
Message:
Loafus

That pop up thing looked like a 'quality control',indulgent patronizing, 'well if you must- but you've got to let us stamp it first', sort of gesture. When she mentioned she was actually on her deathbed! well I immediately thought: I mean what else could one do in the face of a dying person offering to lay down their last precious moments for you in an unasked for and redundant gesture of protection? Oh it's all so weird. Why did she feel the need to mention her terminal condition anyway? Does it make the content of the site more valid? I hope it's not an attempt by EV to do that-how mind bogglingly distorted. I am actually aghast after reading as much as I could of it all. My powers of expression desert me. I must go and lie down.

Lies everywhere. Lies and halftruths, mixed up with truths and half lies. It's exhausting. The dear language will soon break, and no one will ever be able to use it again.

Why does Pia let that pop up insult, patronise and detract from her, in her dying gesture?

love Bryn.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:21:06 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: I have questions ???
Message:
I think she honestly tries to counterweigh the pressure put on rawat from here. As a good premie she puts up the links to the official sites. I don't know her but it is hard for me to see people do such labor of love for such a questionable cause
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:07:12 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: They're finally responding
Message:
Pia has written:

'The source of most of the attacks on Maharaji and his work comes from a small group of former students led by several who had positions of major responsibility in the organization. Michael Dettmers, Michael Donner, Jim Heller, and Jean-Michel Kahn.'

She forgot me and a host of other people who also have attacked the Maha and who also had positions of major responsibility. I had more responsibilty than Jim Heller. I personally guarded Maharaji's cheese and I also set fire to a tree in his garden.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:29:46 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: she also claims this:
Message:
... that the famous four (the Michaels Dettmers and Donner, (und blitzen?) Jean-Michel - who I know was 'merely' an instructor and our very own Jim Heller)

'were instrumental in forming and implementing the very organizational policies and practices they are now criticizing.'

Now, that might describe the two Michaels, but J-M and Jim???

Formed any organisational policies with DLM/EV did you Jim, Jean-Michel? If not, I'd say you're definitely being misrepresented.

(by Pia-group pressure?)

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:23:24 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: anti-cult law voted in France
Message:
From Pia Ji's site (she called herself Pia Ji when registering the domain name it-aint-so.org):

Anti-cult law voted in France

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:20:53 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: G
Subject: anti-cult law voted in France
Message:
FYI, another article - from the Guardian - is here:

'France arms itself with legal weapon to fight sects'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,499586,00.html

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:08:19 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: As with EV no real public forum
Message:
Just a highly selective and censored posting area.

Why are they afraid of free speech ?

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:32:06 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: free speech...no, they can't handle it..
Message:
It would be the perfect opportunity for all those who really know M,(i.e. have spent time with him outside of programmes) to relate all the many tales there must be of his kindness, compassion and concern for his premies. Come on, if this site has such a fine collection of very detailed and consistent 'lies' about him (ignoring pleas for help, picking out women at programmes to have sex with and then discard etc.) surely it's time to tell the world the real stuff about your master? Hmmmm? Must be details not generalities- I'm waiting! (Really, there must be SOME, surely?)
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:55:13 (GMT)
From: Silvia Sommer
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Pia Grunbaum FORGOT to tell us she ADORES the man
Message:
and that she does so much that she even kiss his FEET making hours long lines to pass by him or in private.

Hipocrat, that is what you are maharaji, little man, in every sense. You call the truth now HATE??

Hate is what YOU REALLY have for the people who fallow you because maharaji, you, lower entity, enslave and sickens people's minds. SHAME ON YOU. The truth IS catching up with you, eh? Nice to see that maharajito, very nice. I'm telling you. we'll met again. I will sue YOU, not your organization, but you, and I have PLENTY of videos to show how you GOT ME! You bastard!!

You have my phone number you COWARD, hiding behind other 'little people'. You are going to pay for what you did to all of us. You are not exempt to the law of our democratic countries. You are SCAM! This is not HATE but a way of saying: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH Do you get it? I see you don't. You are falling lower and lower. You should have quit when you were ahead, you moron. And tell your premies that I posses an arm and will not hesitate to use it one minute to deffend myself. The heat is ON. Dance now with it!!
Silvia Sommer- Michigan-

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:54:22 (GMT)
From: S
Email: None
To: all
Subject: My videos- I pay for them with credit cards
Message:
and they cannot get them from me!! I'm dangerous to the LORD. uhhhhh

I can see that I gave my real name all are going to start posting about me. Eat feet, you idol adorers.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:25:28 (GMT)
From: TYPO
Email: None
To: S
Subject: Paid
Message:
and have all the receipts, each and everyone of them.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:14:48 (GMT)
From: Marolyn Kyntyre
Email: None
To: Anyone with open eyes
Subject: Silvia Sommer needs help, immediately.
Message:
Someone needs to have a quiet word to this crazed woman. Her vile aggressive angst ridden vomit is becoming an embarrassment to this site.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:35:44 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: Marolyn K - the site vs the forum
Message:
Hi Marolyn -
I do understand what you mean about the angry rants on the forum - but the fact is that the forum is the place for people to do that. (They can't very well do it anywhere else where anyone will understand).

If anyone wants to know about ex-premie.org, they need to look at the SITE first, and not make judgements about ex-premies based on the forum. I know some people do judge ex-premies because of what they read on the forum (Pia's site, etc.) but basically, the forum is FOR ex-premies to speak out (even when mightily pissed off) - and it's FOR the people who have already found it and are using it.

Sometimes it's a bit like being in group therapy - if you can relate :)

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:57:12 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: You MEAN Silvia Sommer Is help
Message:
Why are you signalling out Silvia, Why don't you read my postings?

I'm enjoying the therapy of swearing and calling Maha Googoo ShitForBrains a fuckin Corruptive lying cheating corruptive evil-hearted dumb prick. Would I say it to his face, fuck hell I'd say it to him on the Jerry Springer Show! I'd bring out a beautiful garland (fake flowers) and put it around his neck and pull the ends real tight. Makes Good TV and even Better Therapy.

You must be a premie. You think you're communicating but actually you are saying NOTHING. You sound just like Michele, hmmmm???

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:59:57 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: Silvia can say whatever she likes
Message:
if you knew what she went through for the sake of the gugu. Don't tell us what to do, better still go and 'assist' Pia in her disaterous attempt to tie herself to a sinking boat.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:47:05 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: i'm enjoying her rants. its healthy! and fun!
Message:
she speaks for me and a host of others.

go, sylvie, go!

grrrrrrrrrrrrl power!

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:54:01 (GMT)
From: SB/Silvia
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I have it, I feel it and I'm going for the jugular
Message:
Power to you too girl!

Capricorn can be very stubborns, specially those born on 12/24

hahahaha

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:42:08 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: Sorry if my truth offends you
Message:
I do experience true love in my life and that doesn't mean that I cannot express myself or that I do not have rights. I can tell your master what I want, or can you stop me. Tooooo agressive for your 'soft style'? And who cares? Maharaji doesnt/didn't care or answer myletters, EVER. I can talk now and I'm sure is going to him. The proof is in the pudin.(?)

What you call crazy is really MY state of mind? No. What you call crazy is that you wouldn't have the guts to tell anybody anything, isn't? But my darling, you don't know me or who I am, so, go ahead. Have Fun!!

I am enjoying expressing What I want to say, at every given moemt. Freedom.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:36:10 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: Why do you all of a sudden . . .
Message:
. . . care about 'embarassment to this site'? Aren't you still a premie? You're newly posting, and you've got nothing invested here. Why should you care and start telling other people what to do and say?

I admit she's over the top, but that's fine. It's a phase that people go through after they feel jerked around by others, had, taken for a ride, hoodwinked, fooled, etc. etc. Hopefully she'll settle down, but she's got a right to get it off her chest first.

Your comment below that you'd even rather read what premies say shows that you probably still are one. It is easy for a premie who is in a state of denial to sound calm, cool and collected, and the person who is facing their demons to sound like a raving lunatic. In fact, premies sound so cool and collected that what they said at the last programs I went to sounded plain comatose.

I think you need to give Silvia and Deborah a break. Just let them rant. I believe from the posts I've read that Deborah has plenty of friends, on and off this Forum.

I know that I went through a certain amount of anger, but since I'd had my doubts all along, I did not purge my own demons in quite the same way. I slowly drifted away and experienced anger in little bursts that I could handle. But that's not how everyone processes things, and I am no great example of humanity.

I also had to see that it takes two to tango, and to own my own participation in following a messianic cult--to try to understand what I did, and why I did it, and how, to some extent, I did it again in another religion, although not nearly to the extent I did with M & K.

Best wishes, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:23:25 (GMT)
From: Marolyn Kyntyre
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: point taken Francesca
Message:
I know that I (like Silvia) was speaking entirely out of self interest. I understand that anger is part of the deal and that people need to be allowed their time for that. Nothing personal to Silvia, there's no questioning her bravery, her expression frightens me that's all. There is so much good stuff to read and none of us has the time for everything so it may be good to remember that, in consideration of the growing readership. I admit I am too 'soft' in a way and feel strange when an over emotional post comes up, it shoves me out of my comfort zone and is a little confronting. I am one of those people who self righteously proclaim that everyone should be 'calm and ordered' just because I'm an old duck who's slowed down to a crawl. I admire your broadmindedness in respecting the right of all outpourings.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:24:13 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: as another old duck, Marolyn
Message:
I appreciate your calm old-fashioned voice but we live in an untidy world. Anyway, it's nice to see you here and I look forward to hearing more from you.

PatC, the old-fogey armchair yogi

PS Silvia is a fiery lass with flamenco blood flowing in her veins and I love her tirades. One day you will see that she really is being both angry and funny. The subtilties of different peoples' senses of humor don't come across on the net immediately. But I don't read certain people - usually those who are snide or insincere.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:52:45 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: point taken, Marolyn
Message:
Marolyn:

If you are actually an ex-premie there is a link on the main EPO page for a private forum called 'recent exes.' However, they can make their own rules because it is not public. There is much gentler language there -- this site seems extremely freewheeling in comparison -- but it is also for people who are not in the cult, so I'm not sure where you are with that.

Best wishes on your continuing journey. I, for example, don't read anything by Catweasle or much of Michele Deradun or CD's stuff. Since there is too much to read, you will get used to the voices that are easier for your own sensibilities.

Some of us have to ROCK!

Namaste, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:31:26 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: you're full of it
Message:
Now, softing the atmosphere...sut up! FAKE person. You called me crazy. I give you this to read:

Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 22:52:21
From: I know more
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: It happened to me
Message:
My first spell of depression came when I went to a city to ask for K. Sulekshna Bai didn't think I was ready and folks, by that time I had become a surrendered devotee, totally believeing he was who he said he was: God encarnated. I got very sick one time in Miami. My then husband and I rented a little apartment behind Dr. Ed's house, maharaji's doctor(I believe he delivered all his children too). Anyway, living there I got severely depressed and even that it sounds weird,I didn't sleep for 2 months and a week. I would ask my husband to help me,to take me to a hospital and he wouldn't. I was told to meditate. I was afraid to go out to the street. I got to a point, I learned later by a diagnosis) I acted like a 7 years old child, but at times I would see that I was sick and that the dillussions I was having were not real, but nobody would help me. All my premies friends disapperead, and Dr. Ed, even that he knew my mental condition never came to see me, no compassion there. Oh, wait, he sent a Valium. What a man! What a good doctor! The oath, you know... Meditate. It will go away. I ask to see maharaji in some point, he lived in Alton road at that times, few blocks away from my home, but he didn't came. It was emotional hell. I was left there alone all day long and terrified of leaving! I was allucinating, I saw things that didn't existed. I smell flowers that were not there. I suffer so, so much. I didn't even had the strenght or the reasoning to realize that I could comitte suicide to stop the suffering. I, I was gone. I tried to kill myself before K? No. I was a happy young person. I was a model in my country and also worked in TV,my contract finished a bit before meeting Lard. What happened to me?
I was so close to dying twice. I have been suicidal many times. can you imagine GOD is in this Earth and you have doubts? You maybe be a BAD person.... One time I overdose and was in a coma for two-three days. I woke up (came out of it)with my ancles and wrists strapped, unable to move, and remained hospitalized for a month and a half. Another time, I waited for a train and when it was coming a lay on the ground. Twenty-eight cars went over my head. It didn't carry me because I was so skinny. My then husband would leave me alone, go to work (very important to him=$$$) with my 2 years old son! (Is that a loving person? Is that consciusness? hell? I know hell. And maharaji has made many minds sick. My ex-husband tried to kill himself 4 times. How is it possible? Yes, both of us have suicides in our families, but like you said, mental/emotional problems were taken as 'just mind-not real' and we were told taht meditation would cure all. Bring your sufferings and I will give you peace; didn't he said that?

One day I left and went to a pay phone and called my family in Argentina and they made arrangements and I ended up in Dunellon, Fl, living for three months in the house of an Argentinian Psychiatrist, Natalio Chudnovsky, who saved my life. Very loving, compassionate person. Too bad he died and never got to see me happy as I'm today. Free. Whole again.

How is it that I left the cult on November of 99 and I feel better than ever? Yes, cults CAN be dangerous, more when they are lead by a moron like maharaji.

sb/silvia

Let see what you think about it. I want to know how honest you can be. Are you Elaine?

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:18:43 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: done..nt
Message:
asg
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:54:26 (GMT)
From: Marolyn Kyntyre
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Well done.
Message:
There's some interesting material being written here right now by insightful intelligent people. That other stuff really jolts us casual readers out of our respectful interest, and makes us feel tense and slightly sick. At this important time, balanced credibility should be (and is by and large) rising to the surface. Sometimes being here is like being in a room of fascinating people at a cocktail party, but there's a couple of wobblers in the corner shouting their mouths off. It dulls the enthusiasm and wearies the soul. I guess we have to learn to avoid certain names...
thanks bill
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:12:25 (GMT)
From: Silvia Sommer
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: Excusse me bitch, SHUT up, DUMMIE
Message:
I am not in the corner and I have a voice, since I'm not afraid anymore of any of you, cult members, including your leader. Too blunt for you, eh? Next time I try to colour the truth but guess what? It cannot be soften down. Truth is strong and I have no time to put explanations. If you get it fine, if you don't get it fine too. Is my life anyway. MINE, get it? My parents wanted me and had sex to create me. My life.

Sometimes being here is like being in a room of fascinating people at a cocktail party, but there's a couple of wobblers in the corner shouting their mouths off. It dulls the enthusiasm and wearies the soul. I guess we have to learn to avoid certain names...
thanks bill

Who in the hell you think you are, parasite, liking grace from a greedy guru? the KING of the WOBBLERS is LORD himself.

Your LORD, correct? Isn't HE YOUR LORD? Deny it here, you liar. i dare you to respond to my post. You won't. You can't. Scram.

Get a life, would you? Or go enjoy being a cult member. You are pathetic. Bill is my friend. He didn't sent e-mail to me. LOL

Cult darling, you are in a cult. Sorry for bursting your little ballon. Love to you too, but I don't have to like you, like David Smith said to me, in my face.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:38:12 (GMT)
From: To Michelle
Email: None
To: Silvia Sommer
Subject: Michelle, is he the lord or not?? nt
Message:
I want to know please who he is for YOU.

thanks.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:42:46 (GMT)
From: Marolyn Kyntyre
Email: None
To: Silvia Sommer
Subject: 'Love to you too, but I don't have to like you'
Message:
That's true.

Calm down Silvia. You are among friends on this forum.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:17:17 (GMT)
From: geryy
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: Marolyn, you are being antagonistic
Message:
May I relate a little story and perhaps you could infer a more appropriate method of interaction with Silvia from it:

This happened yesterday: My gal pal was upset over with son's little league coach as only a mother can be. She is a volatile and high strung person with a lot of passion. He husband is calm and rational and tried to sooth her by helping her see the other side of the story.

The calmer and more rational he got, the more irritated and irrational she got. (Now this is not intended to say anything about silvia as I think she is fine.)

After she left, I listened to her rant, we sniffed a few tears back, and together lambasted 'the lousy bastards' for all we were worth. In five minutes we were laughing and having a wonderful conversation that was deep, frank and moving.

Her husband's reaction was exasperating and counter productive. I understood that because I'm high strung too. We were both abused as kids and still carry a lot of anxiety.

PS: Both she and her husband are highly educated and motivated caretaker types. He is a school teacher working with so-called 'problem' kids and she is a counselor for people who have been sexually molested, assaulted, etc.. Both have masters degrees in education from good universities...

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:24:38 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Typo, sheesh, I even mispelled my own name
Message:
Fourth paragraph should read After he (the hubbie) left...
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:37:41 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: It's all that sicko stuff effect.....nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:31:36 (GMT)
From: S
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: me or her? LOL who cares... nt
Message:
n
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:57:05 (GMT)
From: Correction
Email: None
To: Silvia Sommer
Subject: I ment to say firearm.
Message:
Your premies, poor people are crazy, litelly for you maharaji. And you, deep know it!
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:07:28 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Correction
Subject: I ment to say firearm.
Message:
Silvia,
I know you're pissed and rightly so, but perhaps it's best not to mention firearms. People might get the wrong idea.
Rick
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:02:22 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: again Rick
Message:
who to this point cares what others are going to think, please! I said I threw myself under atrain on 1990! I talked about in another thread, innactive now. I said it all. I'm not ashamed of myself anymore because THAT will be VERY sick. I learned to accept that part of my life, understanding it. I'm getting healthier, I can talk about the sleeping Silvia did.

I am not an stupid person. I put myself through College, learned English, I have a mind of my own, I have many videos, manyand because of taht I am dangerous to HIM and his game is over. I just have to warn the real CRAZY people out there. I didn't threat anybody but one of his mahatmas almost kill a reporter in my city. Can you imagine taht? That is true insanity, because somebody threw a pie on maharaji's face. Is ludricous, sad. I do what I have to do, period. Is my life and my son needs me, alive.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:45:29 (GMT)
From: S
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: READ HOW I wrote-you didn't
Message:
The people we are dealing here are in a way TRULY insane for love to their IDOl and I don't want him or others to think I am afraid of a visit. Get it?
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:35:50 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: S
Subject: READ HOW I wrote-you didn't
Message:
Yeah, baby... shoot 'em up; bang, bang.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:33:35 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Pia forgot something important.
Message:
Hi Way,

What a surprise to see a website by my old friend Pia. I know her well.

She forgot something really important in her defence of the Captain. She mentions the lies and hate of the Ex-premie sites, but doesn't actually give any examples, so it's impossible to figure out exactly what 'lies' she's talking about.

Is every single thing we say a complete lie?

Did we just tell one or two important ones.

Is Micheal Dettmers account of the Captain killing a cyclist, driving off and leaving Sampuranand to take the blame a lie?

Are the accounts of the Captains drinking lies?

Are the accounts of his sexual abuse of female followers lies?

Come on Pia, you can't scream 'Liars' without saying what the lies are.

Or is this just another pile of cult spin?

Anth, would like to hear Pia's response.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:33:35 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Oy Veh!
Message:
She sounds very sincere, but needs to get some of her facts straight. (Jim, you've been retroactively promoted!) Also, I challenge ANYONE to read the ex-premie.org SITE and say it's a 'hate site'.

Maybe this is a place where Michele, Mili, Mr. Williams, et al. can post - that would be nice :).

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:31:36 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Yikes! A vomitorium
Message:
Poor Dettmers and Donner. They are saying they are the ringleaders of ex-premie.org. What a joke and a twisted lie. I feel sorry for these people, but at least I'm glad they've made their own website instead of being trolls on this one. I've got to give them credit for that.

The sick part of it is that they are calling our experiences 'lies.' Boy are they getting desparate. If they give a link to this site or raise curiosity, there is enough information -- the ashram manual, the Peace Bomb, Radhosoami roots etc. etc. to debunk their claims. The mounting evidence grows, doesn't it!

Thanks for finding that!

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:14:33 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: :)) nice word ...vomitorium...APT.
Message:
zz
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:41:39 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I have emailed Pia
Message:
As she states on the website, Pia has been diagnosed with terminal cancer. She obviously is a sincere person. I have emailed her a link to the 14 objections letter. I have asked her to please please let me know if there is anything at all in that letter that is false. I have told her that if there is in fact any falsehoods in that letter, that I will do my best to correct the letter.

The 14 objections letter is on this site, in the introduction.

My request goes out to anybody else who can refute any of the contents of the 14 objections letter.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:37:40 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Yes, another factual error about the Mike D's
Message:
Sheesh, guess me and Brian have a real low profile (snicker)!
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:15:16 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: A PRONE profile lately I bet!
Message:
Hi Katie and Brian,
I loved your thread where you announced the wedding.
I have thinking about a mailing to you.
Thank you both so much for providing what Pia would/could not,
a site of truth.

Smiles for you both:)
Love ya, bill

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:41:57 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Bill, I'm shocked! (blush)
Message:
You have a dirty mind (snicker)!

Hope to hear from you soon.

Love to you
from Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:40:30 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: I was pissed off.
Message:
I was pissed off too Katie.

I at least expected a mention. I mean, I know her quite well.

Anth 'I'm over here, want to take my picture somebody?'

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:45:02 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I feel sorry for you! She doesn't even know me!
Message:
But I'm glad they're putting up a website.

At least some premies have guts ......

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:43:36 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: But seriously
Message:
Sorry she doesn't consider you a threat, Anth! Actually, I myself prefer to work behind the scenes - always have :).

Seriously, what she has written about Michael Donner and Michael Dettmers is not true. They just post here, and have allowed us to put some of their posts on the site.

Also, you are correct that she needs a link to ex-premie.org - although I'm sure a web search on 'ex-premie' (so-called :)!) will find it fast.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:59:06 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Some inaccuracies
Message:
Pia claims in the introduction to her site that she is independently setting up the site. This is a misleading statement as I am quite sure she has the permission of both Maharaji and Elan Vital to set up the site and to invite others to make contributions to the site. She is, in fact, an agent for Maharaji in this regard and her denial of any agency is a bit of cult-speak. Seems unnecessary.

She also characterizes the exes as hateful and threatening and purposefully misleading. But she offers no chance for a straight-forward dialogue with ex-premies.

They will continue to deny our opinions, but will they ever openly talk WITH us about the various issues of fact? I very much doubt it. It will all be very very controlled, as usual.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:07:52 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: My posting to her site
Message:
You know Pia,
As a former Gopi, with all the credentials
to back that up, I must take issue that
there is no data or information that runs
contrary to the-maharaji as master of life- information that you would be happy to be the
only info available.

Humans are messy, premies are also angry, petty,
vindictive, the works. Marolyn managed to type
out this little ditty, 'premies who dont meditate
are the biggest assholes'

Do YOU meditate? ENOUGH to qualify as not a
'biggest asshole'?

Is this comment from someone who lived up close
to m reflective of anything to you?

Nothing all that wrong with looking at all the
info on a subject you know, you would not provide that service, so, whoever does can control the
style of presentation.

You are chooseing to not provide an alternative
to the ex site, those who are agast at hidden
things are not only not welcome here, but are
identified by a broad brush dismissal putting us all in a definition you chose in your intro
speech on this site.

Not fair Pia.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:22:42 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Well said! NT
Message:
aha
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:49:53 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: dogs and the Lion, how appropriate!
Message:
From Pia's site:

Criticisms of an extraordinary man and a great work are being made.

Dogs barking at a lion break the still air.The lion walks on. The dogs are irritated.

The lion is not.

Recent field studies of lions have revealed the the mythologized 'royalty' of lions is seriously misplaced. It appears that lions are mainly scavengers who eat the kill of other animals, most notably, the hard working hyena. This is in almost total opposition to the popular conception.

Lions, because of their superior size can dominate and steal from lesser carnivores. And we all know that dogs are man's best friend.

Pia doesn't understand how correct her characterization really is...

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:42:56 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Perfect! Right ON nt ;)
Message:
y
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 14:35:16 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Irish Times article
Message:
For those of you who are interested, there will be an article in the Irish Times magazine section this weekend (not available on the net) with a profile a reporter in Cork did about me and my work defending people on death row. The reporter was quite interested in my involvement with the cult. I suspect you might even see EPO mentioned in the article.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:09:32 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Cool Marianne..I'll look out for it (nt)
Message:
xx
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:47:02 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Can't find the Irtish Times in Tooting!! NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 19:24:02 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Especially if you're in bed. NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:33:00 (GMT)
From: David M
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Irish Times article
Message:
Marianne..Hey How are you!!!!..I am intrested in reading the article. where would i find it??..Hope all is well with you..Peace...David
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:22:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne, you may think I'm jealous but I'm not.
Message:
I can't believe it. OK, so you've got an article in a newspaper about you. Huh. Big Deal.

You think I'm jealous. Let me tell you I'm not jealous one tiny bit. Not at all. I don't care if it's you and not me that everyone is reading about. Oh no. It doesn't affect me at all. I don't care a single jot if there's a big article with a picture of you instead of me. Oh no. I'm not into all that stuff. I'm not even interested. Huh.

(The fools, it should have been me. I'm much prettier if I've had a shave and put my glasses straigh, and put it a tiny bit out of focus.)

Anth, not jealous one tiny bit even for a single second.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:01:29 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Irish Times article
Message:
Congrats Marianne, glad to see print media thinks you deserve
readership. We sure like reading you.

Did you ever find that previous mention the irish times did
on the former lord of the universe?

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:40:44 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: For those who have no idea of what m's world
Message:
looked like in the 70s:

The Quadrilogy:

Rolling Stone article 74

Over the hill at 16

Guru

I see the light

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:57:22 (GMT)
From: JSK
Email: JKorvick@aol.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: BEST OF NOMINATION thanks again nt
Message:
asdf
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:55:09 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: my first satsang was that one at st mark's place!
Message:
omigod! i was there! that was exactly where i got sucked in! i had no idea there was a reporter there who recorded it for posterity.that could have been me, writing that narrative!
i just sent that page to my father, in an endeavor to give him some flavor of how an intelligent daughter like me, with so much potential, could have put my life on hold and thrown everything i had into this.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:07:07 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Always fear based rawat manipulation
Message:
This from one of the articles:

'There is also a heavy touch of millenialism, based on the belief, as Rennie put it, that 'this is the time of greatest darkness on the planet.' Another devotee told me that Guru Maharaj Ji 'has come at this time to save the world.' He went on to explain: 'This planet has been allowed to get into such confusion, men have been allowed to run their lives in a selfish manner until the selfishness has grown so great that if God didn't step in now, the planet would be doomed.' (Devotees are always talking about 'the planet,' which I suppose indicates progressive thinking in a McLuhanesque sense.) Rennie fulfilled the implications of this when he predicted 'purification by sacred fire'-the fire in the atom.
----->He added that Guru Maharaj Ji says only those with Knowledge will pass through this fire (certainly making Knowledge a desirable commodity). Then the guru will establish the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:19:36 (GMT)
From: bill-This post is from
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: an aspirant who discovered something inthe process
Message:
Date: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 20:07:52 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Augustina
Subject: Here's what one ex-aspirant said
Message:

The following is a post from someone who waited a long time for knowledge but was refused it. According to her, it was specifically stated that she must have no other religious beliefs if she was to receive knowledge.
Here is her story:

It was an astonishing experience for me today to attend a Maharaji aspirant meeting in order to request being granted the privilege of gaining 'knowledge'.

I have had the satisfaction of attending meetings and watching Maharaji's videos. No demands were ever made and I did find a new ability to calm my mind. In the very beginning Maharaji said that what he has to offer is not a religion and does not conflict with any religion. I had never felt any pressure -- only a gentle promise.

That all changed today. Many hopeful aspirants had come long distances (including airplane flights) to gain this wonderful offering. But we had to endure moving from room to room as we were weeded out for not being dedicated or deserving enough. I was told that 'nobody' knew me -- which translates into I had not been excited enough to talk to people and offer my time/effort. While it *felt* like a demeaning and cruel experience, we were constantly reassured that it is the 'journey' that counts and not to take it as 'rejection,' even though some people had spent hundreds of dollars on airplane tickets and were clearly emotionally crushed.

Not rejection? Bull. More like CALCULATED rejection. What is interesting is that I always wondered why ex-premies should be so angry. As for myself, I found Maharaji's message of the heart being wise and providing fulfillment -- as opposed to the machinations of mind and a materialistic world -- extremely valid. Especially so when Maharaji skillfully invites you to go within and find your own brand of happiness which is like nobody elses. Ancient masters and wise men have said it for ages, 'Know thyself.' It frees the heart.

Unfortunately, Maharaji's freedom lasts only until you realize that Maharaji's real goal is that you give HIM total allegiance. The carrot he uses is granting 'knowledge.' Although today his instructors were suddenly saying it's a life-long process of which 'knowledge' is only a part. Maharaji is more important than knowledge they told us today. Personally, I have never thought the messenger should be greater than the message, but that's exactly what you must agree to in order to receive knowledge. Knowledge is the carrot of freedom, except at the same time you're gaining freedom, you're also losing it.

In the meeting the instructor made an absolute point to have all of us repeatedly insist that we had no other religion or spirituality - explaining that that would conflict with our dedication to Maharaji. I found this to be a very important lie, because obviously many people would not have been interested if Maharaji had made it clear up front that he would accept no competing religions or affiliations. In the beginning he claimed otherwise.

Frankly, while Maharaji has always said to listen to your heart and not your mind, it wasn't my mind that objected today, but my heart. There was a distinct feeling of betrayal. This truly looks like an insidious agenda to browbeat people into a servile enough submission to 'earn' the gift of knowledge by promising nothing less than total service to Maharaji.

And to top it off, you are reminded that knowledge will not make the world a better place, or give you happier relationships, or improve your health -- it merely provides a wonderful experience. (Like alcohol or drugs without the side effects)

There was other stuff I found objectionable, but I think this covers my thoughts best.

Oh, by the way, my husband pointed out that I did, after all, get knowledge today -- just not the kind I expected.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 14:00:15 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: YOU ARE THE BEST! my love to u. NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:07:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Version Control
Message:
Version Control.

I’ve worked for almost twenty years in the computer business. Most of the time I’ve been writing, editing and updating technical literature. Usually I don’t understand 95% of it. They are books that only half a dozen people will ever read. Often they never get read. The people who read them are computer engineers who set up systems to store and send a few million messages to mobile phones every day, or work out the payroll for a company with operations in fifty currencies and fifty social security and tax systems.

I produce the latest version of each book, give it to the person who understands it, they check it, tell me what to alter, I go away, change it- and the cycle goes on until the product goes out the door.

My worst nightmare is to get multiple versions of a book. The books have lives of their own. The programmes are always changing and being fixed, and the books have to follow them and keep up. It’s impossible to hold a book still. They are alive, like the software they support.

Imagine this.

I write a book and give it to three people to review. I get the changes back from Charlie and put them into the master version. Then a fourth person, Fred, has changes. I give Fred my master version, and add his changes

This is the moment I should be fired.

I have now created two living versions of the book. There’s the version with Fred and Charlie’s changes, and then there’s the version Sally and Sue are still reviewing and changing. What if one of Fred’s changes conflicts with what Sally does? Sally hasn’t seen the verion with Fred’s stuff in it.

If you’re lucky, you see it coming, and right at the start, you scream, “Urgent Documentation Panic. Change Freeze.” You print out the different versions, stay up for two nights making them into one, and start again. “Sorry, we had a bit of a fuck-up. Could you go through this again please?”

If you do nothing, the two versions grow into different books. The nightmare grows. And at the end of the line, the engineer setting up the first system for the bank that has paid $100 million for your company’s payroll system finds something’s not working right because a vital bit of information is in another version somewhere. This little turd rises very quickly to the surface of the corporate swimming pool.

Why am I ranting about one of the most boring subjects in the world? (One reason is I know I have an indulgent audience.)

Well, Elan Vital, with the Captain at the wheel, is now entering the “Nightmare Stage” in their “Version Control”. All that remains is to sit back and enjoy the spectacle as they chase their own tail, until they collapse.

The cracks appeared a year or two ago. The cult have allowed two versions of Captain Rawat and his mission, to come into existence.

This is causing problems at every level.

The first version of the Captain is, “Perfect Master.” He is the Perfect Master of his age, just as Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Nanak, and the Captain’s father were. He reveals “Truth within”, known as “Knowledge”. He is the superior power in person. The secret to understand him is to surrender to him completely. He is the only one you can really trust- not your friends or family, but the living Perfect Master. If the Perfect Master beats you with a stick and steals your wallet, you are the most fortunate being alive, because he is giving you his undivided attention.

All the hardcore premies believe in this version of Captain Rawat. For years they danced before him, or his picture, every day and sang, “You are my mother and you are my father, you are my all my Lord to me. Guru Maharaji, my life is within you..”

The second version of the Captain, is, “He’s just an ordinary human being, with this ability to teach these techniques that put you in touch with something beneficial within.” (My own words, and I’m a bit out of touch, but you get the idea.). All that stuff about “God in human form”, “Perfect Master”, “Your Glory fills the World, Ki Jai,” was a big misinterpretation by some hippies who were looking for that anyway. They just laid a trip on the Captain when he was young and impressionable. He never said he was God or anything like that. He would sit down to relax, and 5,000 people would spontaneously organise themselves into a line and kiss his feet for a few hours. (If I can trust my Aussie nark, Catweazle, the same spontaneous misunderstanding happened again a few weeks ago at Amaroo.)

Then there were the times he was walking onto the stage and someone stuck this red and gold jacket on him, and the next thing he was being crowned as Krishna. Misunderstanding upon misunderstanding.

There is of course, a third version of the Captain, which only the “X-rated devotess are allowed to witness.” This is the drunk diving, philandering, bullying, and confused, out of the public eye Captain, which I’m not discussing here.

So, back to conflicting versions one and two, where the cracks are becoming chasms in three places.

The first chasm is inside the premies. What are they supposed to believe nowadays? Is he the bloody Perfect Master or what? If he is, how come you can’t talk about it? How come even the Captain is saying it was a big misunderstanding?

And if he isn’t the Perfect Master, then how come he still gets everyone to line up and kiss his feet?

Then there’s the conflict in public presentation of the cult. If the Captain and his yoga techniques are sold to the public as some new-agey, self-discovery trip, what happens when they find out everyone on the inside believes he is the Lord in human form, and still, “bows down before such a Wonderful Lord” at least twice a day?

Then of course, there’s the conflict within Captain Rawat himself. He has this holy mission from his Perfect Master, also his father. Has he abandoned this calling in his life?

But getting dressed up as Krisha and dancing around on the stage with a flute you can’t play doesn’t really attract the punters. Well, not the sort of punters a cult could use.

The solution has been pathetic. “Make it up as you go along. Hope it will all work out in the end. Let the believers believe. Tell the new punters whatever will get them through the door.”

The cracks in the walls are getting wider and the band are playing louder.

Anth, my version and I’m sticking to it.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:44:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Excellent, excellent post, Anth!
Message:
A wonderful summary of the cult's shapeshifting. You know, this really, honestly, might be the beginning of the end for this asshole. (No, not me, silly! Maharaji.)
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 21:46:21 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: A real tour de farce Anth! /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:18:26 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: z
To: Anth
Subject: No Master Plan - thanks Anth nt
Message:
x
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:20:04 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: It sounded like I was contradicting myself when...
Message:
Hi y'all,

I got more energy than I bargained for with all this, and here I am posting at 3:45 a.m. Geez!

I really love the written word. I feel I can express so much with it. However, there is one extremely huge and major drawback, and that is the same drawback as a speaker talking to an audience, but without any back-and-forth. One can say something totally truthfully and honestly that to the listener is in clear odds with something the speaker said earlier.

Anyhow, I was realizing that I did just that -- said two opposite things, seemingly opposite things, at two different times. So now I will explain.

In one post I said that in the early days I loved to listen the satsang of different people who were allowed to speak freely, and that it was a wonderful experience for me. Yet, in another post I said that while I was in the ashram (mid-'73-mid-'76), in Denver, that I hated going to the regular satsang meetings because premies would say things that made me feel terrible. Both comments are absolutely sincere, but what I didn't explain was this:

(1) When talking about the early days when people could speak freely and I loved it, I was in my own memory remembering the very first satsangs I ever attended, in late June and early July, 1972, in Denver. I was not even thinking about or remembering the satsang programs of premies in the years following.

(2) When I was talking about how the satsang programs made me feel so hurt that I could not bear to attend them, during my ashram days, I was telling the truth, but I should expound a bit further lest I be guilty of gross overstatement: In the ashram days, when I attended 'premie satsang programs' (people who were followers of Maharaji talking about their experience and beliefs regarding Knowledge and Maharaji) I had, by and large, the same experience every time, and that is that I would hear about an hour or so of 'good' or 'hunky-dory fine with me' satsang (talks)and then maybe an average of only 1-5 minutes of some darn premie's judgements and hurtful concepts. That 1-5 minutes of 'laying a trip,' as I called it, was to my inner sensitivity akin to someone scratching a blackboard with their fingernails. It was like going to hear a beautiful concerto and then suddenly having the basoon player let out notes that would make my veins contract. From what I could tell, most people weren't too bothered by that 1-5 minutes of 'premie bullshit.' I always marked it off to me being overly sensitive, because (a) I was a very wounded person in my own ways, and it did not take much to make me feel badly, and (b) I was spoiled by listening to the most 'feel good' satsang on the planet -- Maharaji's -- since my full-time service was listening to tapes of Maharaji's English-speaking talks and transcribing them to paper. I, quite magically, got that service only weeks after moving into the ashram.

I also kept the entire archive of all of what DLM/DUO had of Shri Maharaji's satsangs. (Shri Maharaji is/was Maharaji's biological father as well as his Guru or Master.) Shri Maharaji's satsangs had of course been given only in Hindi, but I had the archives of the handwritten translated transcriptions, carefully and lovingly written down by Indian devotees of Shri Maharaji and Maharaji. The paper these translations were written on was not of the highest quality, and it seemed best to type those onto some good old 50% cotton Neenah bond, so whenever I was caught up on transcribing Maharaji's satsangs (or the much, much less frequent 'satsangs' of Rajaji, Bal Bhagwanji, Mataji or Bholeji, members of Maharaji's family -- Bhole Ji there was only one by the way, and it was exceedingly short and patently uninspiring; Bal Bhagwanji's satsangs were less frequent than Maharaji's by far but more like pontificating his pseudo-intellectual razmatazz -- excuse, I must tell the truth -- bullshit; Mataji's satsangs were in Hindi with 'live' English translators and to tell you the truth her satsangs were the least memorable by far because I cannot remember a word she said. My only truly fond memories of her were from her singing (which fascinated me, how she used her voice like a high-pitched female Bob Dylan, singing through her nose, 'Apne Hasti Jo Tere, Charanam Me-me-ta...' I can still hear the song in my head, the tune and those first few words.) Also, in India in '72 at a program welcoming the jumbo jets full of Westerners, she gave a gift to every single person in the crowd some wonderful Indian sweet that looked and tasted for all the world to me like a raised glazed donut without the flour or bready part and liquid flavored syrupy sweet stuff within. It was golden in color and shaped a bit like a large pretzel, and I thought it was about the most delicious thing I ever tasted. But I digress...

And Rajaji's satsang? He didn't talk very often either, but oh boy, when he did it was awesome in its love and devotion to Maharaji. He was soooo sweet, and clearly so incredibly shy. It was so obvious to me that he was in fact *painfully* shy, but loved Maharaji so much that he was willing to speak to large crowds to tell them how important it was to pay attention to Maharaji and follow him. 'By hook or by crook, you know,' he would say, again and again, 'By hook or by crook' he instructed Maharaji's followers to do whatever it takes to hang on to this precious opportunity, this precious relationship. He was very hard to transcribe because he talked soooo fast, sooo softly, and on top of that was only about 17 or 18 years old himself at the time and his English diction was difficult to make out at best. Oh, but how I loved him. I confess, though I never had a 'crush' on Maharaji (in the girl-boy sense), I did have a crush on Rajaji, just about the whole time I lived in the ashram.

I remember my housemother at the time Rajaji married Claudia knew about my love for Rajaji, and she came to console me, 'Oh Michelle, I'm so sorry!! I was hoping he would marry you!!' But I was a pretty good sport about it, and after all Claudia was so beautiful, a model from Germany, and something like a size 4 or size 6. Back then, like most Americans still do now, I worshipped thinness. I was a size 14 and Claudia was a size 6, so clearly in my mind that made her the 'better woman,' LOL. (Nowadays my sizes are in the 20's and most of the time that doesn't bother me one little bit.)

Ahhh....it is, like Jim says, soooo nostalgic to remember those days. I'm so glad I was there. And I'm glad I'm here now, too!

Navigating this website is just awful for me, because this board has what seems like hundreds of new posts daily with a software that was never meant to make it easy to navigate that kind of traffic. I hope one day I will be able to read all the posts directed to me personally (at least, those that don't diss me so badly in the subject line that I don't want to read them anyway; hey, I don't mind people disagreeing with me vehemently, but verbal abuse is not something that I go out of my way to hear).

So if anyone really needs to make sure I see your question to me, please start a new thread at the top and hopefully I will see it if it is still at the top when I log on. I use the 'find' thingy to find La-ex's posts, because I have a soft spot for him. (I hope it's a him -- if not, sorry about that!!!) And I might use the search engine to find Joy once in a while or to find something I read before, but otherwise this damn software is just too time consuming. (Not to mention the fact that I spend so darn much time posting...!!!)

Goodnight for now!

cheers

Michele (not an ex)

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:12:03 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: A few thoughts from another ex-transcriber...
Message:
Hi Michele.

I have a few comments. First, I'm glad that you're here and interacting with all the ex-s, but wish you'd sort of tone down the satsang-y aspect to your posts sometimes, since it turns off ex's and will make them get hostile, and nobody will listen to what you're saying otherwise. Try sticking to perhaps some issues which are of concern to you.

I did the transcription service for a couple years also, after it was moved from IHQ to SHIP. I, also, used to love it. It was a very intimate form of service. You were really 'inside' Maharaji's words, and it often felt like just you and him in your own little world with those headphones on. Except . . . he's not really saying anything! He's just 'speaking' or blabbering on in that way he does, round and round in circles. Can you actually remember or quote anything of substance that he or Raja Ji actually said? (Raja Ji was impossible to transcribe, BTW, he mumbled incessantly and was a transcribers nightmare. But perhaps I just didn't have THAT understanding, like you did!) The whole relationship with M is/was a mirage, Michelle. A total fabrication which we mocked up based on the illusion (perpetrated by HIM) that he was Lord of the Universe in person, Perfect Master come again to walk the planet. Utter and absolute hype and BS. Once the pin gets put in that balloon, you will come to see it for what it was, a total (and dangerous) mockup and projection onto M of qualities he in no way possessed. Have you read the Dettmers section and some of the revelations about M's sordid personal life?

Katie (Jones) Darling said something here yesterday about how you don't have to deny your love for someone to realize that the relationship is unhealthy and move on. I thought that was great. You can incorporate all the loving times you felt transcribing M's satsangs and having your 'personal' relationship with him into who you are as a person now, and move on from being in that supposed 'relationship' into being more whole and complete in yourself, not needing him any more. It is possible. Many of us here have done it, and feel much, much better for having done so. Believe me, it is like stepping into, not out of, the light.

Anyhow, in the parlance of the old 12-step meetings, Keep Coming Back, It Works! Hang out enough on EPO and hopefully your balloon will burst too and you'll see M and the whole scene for what it really is (sounds like you've already seen through EV).

Take care, and I wish you the best,
Joy
(definitely an ex, and an ex-transcriber to boot!)

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:07:45 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Michele, Navigation here is easy
Message:
Firstly, use the frames version - I think you'll find it a lot easier if you're not already using it - click on frames below.

Then, just look for your own posts (use Edit/Find in Frame if it's not clear where your posts are), read the responses to your own posts you want to read, and respond to those you think worthy of response.

There are many responses below to posts you've made, making very important points, to which you have yet to respond.

John.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:11:41 (GMT)
From: bill-just look in this
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: thread for your messages. That is enough space..nt
Message:
sdrigj
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 14:06:48 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: ''By Hook or By Crook'' ...Michele
Message:
Michele,

You said that raja said ''by hook or by crook'' all the time. What exactly did you think that meant? It's laughable that you don't get that the joke is on you, by both his Lardass and brother.

Let's take ''by hook.'' That the first basic propagation technique used by the Maharajism cult. New people are welcomed with open arms, told to watch to goober videos to gain that understanding, until they are brainwashed enough to go to the heavy, wanting k phase. That's when premies gently start winking and twitching that goomraji is something more than a mere teacher as advertised. But by that time, the programming has already occurred and man, propagation is happening.

Then there's ''by crook.'' Maharaji is a crook, Michele. He has managed to coerce enough money during his stint acting as some kind of holy master over three decades here in the US and Europe, when in fact, he's a cruel, abusive, greedy, greedy boy who never grew up, and has managed to become wealthy off the backs of premies, like me, who once loved him, believing his facade. Raja has done this too. These guys are not real men. They are cowards who have a family cult business and you want to preserve your beliefs and idolotry about them by posting here, of all places, the Ex-Premie Forum!

Have you read anything on the website other than the forum? It's very important in order to understand that the goober is not the lord, he is not a special teacher of anthing, in fact, he is a brainwashing, money hungry, greedy crook! He's stolen much more than money, too.

Don't you see that? Of course you contradicted yourself. You did and continue to do exactly what your ''master'' does: contradict himself ALL THE TIME! He actually is a terrible speaker, but I can understand your confusion because you spent a hell of a lot of time transcribing his tapes. So in essence you had more than your fill of programming and brainwashing, and you can't think or see clearly that this forum is not an invitation for you to come here to give satsang. By the way, Michele, we all know that goomraji doesn't call it satsang anymore but calls them talks. He gives ''speaks.'' That my euphemism for what he does.

From the perspective of an ex-premie, I've come to see that his speaks are nothing but mixed metaphors, contradictory statements, illusions that he is something he is not and worse. He is a fraud who injures people by setting up the illusion that knowledge is for free. Btw, he doesn't own the techniques and he teaches them incorrectly.

The other thing I want to mention to you is your complaining about the speed of the forum. Maybe you should ask m to buy you a new computer or cable modem so you can post here faster! Think he'd do it? I doubt it very much.

Has Maharaji ever thanked you for all the hard work you did while doing your favorite service? Has he? He never thanked me, nor anyone else I know who used to believe in his blather.

Tread lightly Michele. Your satsang, professions of love for the fraud of the universe are not going to be tolerated. This is the EX-Premie website. The forum is for those of us who are working our way out of the cult by talking to eachother.

What do you think about Jagdeo sexually abusing children while Maharaji knew about it and did nothing? Is that okay, too?

I'd appreciate some answers. Why are you here?

Cynthia


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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:18:42 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Hey Michele, you neet Version Control (nt)
Message:
...or it will only get worse
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:08:49 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: You standing in fa ire you dummy
Message:
and instead of doing something about it, you're throwing paper napkins across the fence with messages on them telling us how hot it is and how wonderfull we are because we are not getting burned and how terrable it is that someone let the fire out and how you wish you can put it of with your mind. Well it's not gonna happen.

For christ sake wake up to yourself. There is no speaker neither there is audiance, you're talking to yourself. And we are all shouting at you to get out. WHAT DOES IT TAKE to take the ear plugs off.Sheesh.

Oh and I hope you did not get offended. BECAUSE if you did then it's bloody WORKING.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:10:00 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: should read:You're standing in a fire you dummy
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:11:03 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: yeah, looks like, sounds like, smells like... (nt
Message:
LOL
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:23:29 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: You can't be real...
Message:
What a load of old TRIPE you churn out.....you are just spoofing around yeah? Or doing some subversive 'service' for His Majesty and his paid lackey brother ?

I mean ....such pathetic bullshit .....why dont you go and write this DRIVEL on one of those EV sites or something......readers there would really get off on it.

According to premies, FV'ers are stuck in the past ......bitter , cynicla dregs froms the 70's......your rosy view of the past is just SOOOOOOOOOO FUNNY ....and all that stuff about Raja ji .....the guys was and is about as inspiring as a wet dishcloth. Just cos you wanted to give him a blow job or something doesn't mean he's so full of spirtual love for his master. How do you arive at that ? The guy just likes to get a living wage from the living ' Lord'.

Cheers

Dermot

ps hope you grow up before you get old.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:21:55 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: But Rawat is quite useless!
Message:

Useless!

Maharaji is quite useless and uncouth
Says it's wrong to feel, wrong to trust your heart,
Wrong to think; you just follow his untruth
Where bondage of illusion is the art.

His teachings are deceitful, he's a cad,
Quite the worst guru I've never had.
He said he'd show us God, but God! he's sad,
His whole life just a lie; false; rotten; bad.

He said he's God. I say he is a lie,
A wealthy no-one poncing off conned folks.
He cannot tell the truth, nor meet your eye,
Nor write a decent poem, nor laugh at jokes.

Prempal Rawat you horrid little man,
Your game is up, you're headed for the can.

JohnT
never a premie

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:16:36 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: that your crap some place else, you sadist!
Message:
now taht I thought about it you should be banned from here, giving us satsang?! Get lost, would you or stay and shut up. You may learn something, you parrt! Get a mind of your own. Your is full of HIS crap!
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:32:33 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: ah, um, er, Sylvia?
Message:
Hi Sylvia,
When I came to the forum, it took me quite some time to
actually become an ex for real.

Some folks need some real solid places to put thier feet
before they can step away from a lifetime of building
on the foundation they have.

It is not just fear, it is the power of beliefs and the long fight to suppress themselves in those many early years of the cult. When a bird is in a cage for years, it cant really
just take off and fly. Kindness and understanding and
laughter at foolishness is another approach we can take.

Of course some people do come here to harass, but I am not yet
convinced that Michele is one of those types.

Mili has been around since the very beginning of the forum,
what can you say!? I think I prefer him to Sandy however, at least Mili is definate.

Dont fergit who is really the culprit, the victims, well, we
cant just yank someone out, I myself was too fearful to
take a full step for a long time.

Maybe consider a new approach, you could bring up a bit of the
evidence we have, and pose a question. It will help them
and anyone lurking to get a foothold.

Also, if you were rescueing people during the black underground
railroad, you really cant yell at them for calling you
'masser', it will/did take time for the blacks to lose thier
fear of the whites. Maybe that is not the best example,

Love ya, bill

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 17:15:51 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: We'll see. I'm seldom wrong
Message:
Of course some people do come here to harass, but I am not yet
convinced that Michele is one of those types.

I can't write more, sorry

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 11:50:39 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: +
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: It sounded like I was contradicting myself when...
Message:
Hi Michele..Welcome aboard. It might be a bit shocking to start with. People are free here to say what they want and it won't all be sweet music. But a lot of the abuse is shock tactics, showing you that we are free and need not hold 'The Holy Family' in awe.
It doesn't matter whose Satsang you like or dont. The whole concept is a Hindu Cult backwater. Yes Yes Yes there is inspiration to be had in listening to other people but it can come from anyone anytime if you have ears for it.The human spirit is not to be underestimated. Dont limit it to someone on a stage in funny clothes or with a funny name.

The one true thing that Mr Rawat parrots is that Human Life is precious. But it is not His Realisation. It is obvious if you dig at all. It is not dependant on him in any way, neither is the bliss of meditation. Millions of people experience that with or without a technique.

There is life after knowledge, deeper and richer too.

We have been caught up in someone's personal ego trip/business..it becomes very clear when you stand back a bit.

Love to you and yours
Tim

P.S. I'm an old friend of Joy's living here in South West Ireland

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 11:14:45 (GMT)
From: Steve Mulley
Email: mulley@oninet.pt
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: It sounds at present like...
Message:
you are a fully indoctrinated member of an insidious little cult Michelle. This is an ex premie forum and IMO you have no place here. You are really not ready to question and reclaim your mind yet.

I feel that you are abusing this forum and should go to the premie forum called Life is great or life's afoot or something like that.

Your pro Mahaha bullshit is starting to make me feel nauseous as I don't come here to read that crap. I prefer to read the many intelligent and perspisacious postings from people who have reclaimed their personal power and intellect. To me you sound a little insane my dear.

Hope you don't come back here you sycophantic foot licker,

Steve

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 11:01:20 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Forget that old stuff
Message:

and let's dance the night away

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:51:48 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Oh, Darling, how original! PAMI
Message:
scram! is what premies like you get for deffending LARD maharaji!

Have a loving day, understanding everything you do and don't do, in control of your mind, body and spirit: WHOLE! Try iy! It feels great! Is called real FREEDOM.

best wishes.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:14:57 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: Here is an Anth post for you Michele
Message:
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Mel and All
Subject: Maharaji- Part human, Part potato
Message:

In a post below, Mel said,
‘This certainly has changed over the years, whether this change resulted because he no longer believed in his own 'divinity' or he saw the premie belief in his 'divinity' as an obstruction to the promotion of knowledge, or for any other reason, I don't know. The fact is, though, he does now present himself as a human being promoting something that he feels is very important. No complicating 'divinity' issues these days. Some premies may still believe this, others may not, but it's not really an issue in the experience of knowledge. ‘

This is an interesting statement from Mel, particularly the bit about Maharaji ‘now presenting himself as a human being’. What did he present himself as before- a vegetable, maybe. Was anyone ever in doubt that he was a human being? He’s always had the standard issue of arms, legs, body hair etc as the rest of us upright mammals.

But what Mel is implying here is that all this stuff about Maharaji being God and Perfect Master is now water under the bridge, and he’s got down off his throne and rejoined us imperfect mortals.

This is simply not true. Neither Maharaji, nor anyone around him, believes he’s a ‘normal human being’ (and I suspect Mel doesn’t either. Would you line up and kiss his feet, for example Mel?) The name of the game is ‘God walking around in a human body, in all his divinity. Just like Jesus and Buddha.’ Maharaji believes this, take a look at his website to get an idea of how he sees himself.

The people running Elan Vital, and the people around Maharaji, all believe he’s the ‘Perfect Master’. Lots of old time premies still believe, ‘God is Great, but Maharaji is Greater.’

And here lies the leak that is sinking the ship. There’s a bunch of old timers, who sat through months of nightly brainwashing sessions in the 70s. We were told night after night that Maharaji was the Lord, and we were ‘sticks of incense burning at his feet’ or whatever. Those old timers who are left still believe this. New people come along, and buy the ‘inner peace’ ‘four techniques’ ‘he’s just a human being who’s a teacher’ line, soon sniff the personality cult, and disappear.

Along with that, old timers like myself are realising what we were promised never materialised, and that far from being the ‘Lord’, Maharaji is quite confused about who he is and what he’s doing.

Mel, if there was a darshan line at the next programme, would you line up, pop your cash in the envelope and kiss his feet? If the answer’s ‘Yes’, it doesn’t look to me like you really see Maharaji as a ‘human being’ and maybe there are a few ‘divinity issues’ still unresolved too.

Anth the Part Human Part Aubergine

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 08:42:36 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jim's 5/29 post
Message:
I agree; this site is fantastic, because it shows in a more complete and enduring way than anything else I can envision that abrogating one's personal responsibility for choices freely made, and blaming the person who 'forced'or 'coerced' you into making those choices,and constantly whining about it,speculating and gossiping endlessly, is a dead-end road---it's actually a cult, where y'all negatively reinforce each other on a daily basis, and deny the reality that there ARE, as a matter of fact, thousands, tens of thousands of people in every conceivable socio-economic strata, who are happy as fucking clams practicing Knowledge and loving Maharaji. Why do they love him? I don't know.You'd have to ask them; and they'd probably say what I would---I don't know; I just do. Why do I practice Knowledge? Because it feels fucking great.
Am I a depressed loser? Nope.
Do I have an incredibly rich life, filled with pleasures and people and art and craft and growth and pain and kids and dogs and music and neuroses and struggles and problems and triumphs? Yup.
Am I an 'active PWK,' as the suits say? Yup.
I believe my life, my success, my happiness, my liking AND loving Maharaji, as a master, person, human being, whatever, are bitter gall to you, Jim....which is too bad for you, because it drives you to do and say things which are truly hurtful; you equate anger, blame, victimhood and doubt with honesty. People who've spent any time working on their psychological problems will recognize you as a mildly depressed, rage-driven victim with narcissistic tendencies; perhaps, being simpler and less heady than I am, some people won't use those terms; they'll just think you're not taking responsibility for yourself, and that you're kind of sad, making an anti-religion or dark obsession out of something you've been away from for over two decades.
Apre moi, le deluge. Go ahead and bang away, cowboy.....
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:38:17 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Teachers are supposed to be able to teach.
Message:
When it comes to spirituality, you have to trust that the teacher knows what they're talking about and can help you attain the SAME HIGH STATE that they say they've attained. If m was a driving instructor and you followed advice that sent you over a cliff you'd soon realise he was a fake. It takes longer to find that out when the teacher talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk - and makes sure as few people as possible know that.

I was happy loving miragey while I thought he praactised what he preached. Now i know better, and can see how dangerous it is ataching such positive feelings to such a deciever. someone who takes no action when he learns one of his instructors/initiaors is abusing children in the guise of giving them 'satsang' or teaching them about knowledge. That's what miragey's really like - he takes no action to stop real harm happening in his name to vulnerable children. How can you love someone who does that????? Have you no brains left, do you only care about yourself and 'miragey' now? You're deluded and as they say, ignorance is bliss.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 14:57:07 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: You're repeating yourself
Message:
Dear Mr. Williams,

We already know that you love Maharaji and you don't know why.
We already know that you enjoy practicing Knowledge.
We already know you have a normal family life that you're pleased with.
We already know that you think ex-premies are a bunch of loosers.
You've already told us all those things.

However, you make two new points, (points that have been made countless times by others, but newly posted by you):

(1)You say that there are many many people who love Maharaji and Knowledge. Granted. And there are many many people who love Sai Baba, even though he is a homosexual pedophile in disguise as God Incarnate. There are many people who adore Sun Myung Moon as the current incarnation of Jesus Christ. Shall I go on, or do you get my point that numbers alone don't really mean much when it comes to cults and their members.

(2)You psychoanalyze Jim, who seems to have gotten under your skin. Perhaps I should let Jim answer for himself. But I will give you my impression that Jim is, above all, a sincere person. My opinion is that he is sincere in the way that premies are not. I hear premies say they are thirsty for truth, when actually I think what they thirst for is a security blanket to hold on to while they make their way through life.

Try to understand, Mr. Williams, that we no longer believe in Rawat as our savior, or friend. We no longer believe that Mr. Rawat's Knowledge is Truth, it is a belief system, pure and simple and founded upon wishful thinking and pleasant feelings and soothing words. Truth is something that can never be limited to any religion, to any guru, or to a set of meditation techniques.

Try to give us just a little bit of credit. We gave Rawat a chance. We did. He said, 'I have what you are looking for. Surrender the reins of your life to me, and I will give you what you want.' We gave it a try, Mr. Williams, and all we got was a security blanket, a religion, not the Truth that we were seeking. We still love Truth and consequently we fight against what we perceive as falsehood masquerading as Truth. I hate that, Mr. Williams, I hate that above all else.

So it seems we disagree. Fine. Why go on repeating yourself here? Believe me, you have nothing to tell us that we don't already know.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:25:06 (GMT)
From: Brain
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Look
Message:
If it wasn't for this site some people still would be feet kissers, if you know what I mean.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 11:19:21 (GMT)
From: Steve Mulley
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Youve had your say now...
Message:
FUCK OFF BRAINWASHED TWIT.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:35:16 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Jim's 5/29 post
Message:
At least you are sincere and recognize you have a serious psychological problem, most premies don't, claim to be sane.

Do I have an incredibly rich life, filled with pleasures and people and art and craft and growth and pain and kids and dogs and music and neuroses and struggles and problems and triumphs? Yup.

Definition of word NEUROSIS:

neu·ro·sis (n-rss, ny-)
n. pl. neu·ro·ses (-sz)

Any of various mental or emotional disorders, such as hypochondria or neurasthenia, arising from no apparent organic lesion or change and involving symptoms such as insecurity, anxiety, depression, and irrational fears, but without psychotic symptoms such as delusions or hallucinations. No longer in scientific use.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:19:46 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: My Dear Mr. Williams
Message:
Do not deceive yourself into thinking you have written anything original here. Every few months an active Rawatian cult member appears and says basically the same thing(see the archives).

One thing is clear an undisputable, however. Your owner has/is failed miserably in his attempt to recruit new victims in the western world. Each year the number of victims who wake up and run from him far exceeds the number of new victims submitting to his treachery.

The contributions of Jim and many others in the early days of this site have been very instrumental in helping others escape or not to even begin getting involved with that slithering low-life you now have been conditioned to call Maharaji.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:39:04 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: You DO have a mind! Good for u!
Message:
At least his ensalada is colorful. He couldn't make up his mind, he tries to define him/herself and now we know it by his own admission: He acts neurotic at times, just like the master.... For his fruits you will know who he is, yea, he is 'GOD' alright...

Denial written all over...

You must be the Universal Mind some talk about it. Are you? Snicker ;)

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:57:06 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: No, just a recovering Rawatian cult member..
Message:
..who goes through lots of shit about my former long term involvement with the fat boy.

Like you, I finally feel as though I'm starting to rid myself of HIS VENOM. And, I do mean finally because for awhile there I thought I would never be able to forgive my own ignorance. It's my low self esteem I had before M that got me involved with him and it's my low self esteem that played on the mind of me, Mr. Mind afterwards.

I was prime pickings for that SNAKE JI.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 11:50:58 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: He damages people's self-esteem
Message:
He is the most crappy being, (low entity) I ever encountered. I hear you.

But we owe to ourselves recovery. Knowing that I can make my most strong effort to be good to myself, to love myself. I don't think in my case he destroyed ALL my self-esteem. While a premie I was involved in other voluntary basis works to bring social changes in my community and felt great about ME, good, also, I enjoyed many aspects of ME. I have a beautiful intelligent son who is almost 15 (6/11) and brought to me so much joy while raising him; I always had friends out of the cult, etc., I have many, many interests, but even that I felt good about myself I recognize NOW that his teachings damaged a very deep part of me. My soul? He use spiritual bondage based on lies and that created sickness in a part of my beautiful tool, the mind. Is healing, right? It heals. Now I feel fine, GREAT! Me, who couldn't stop crying when I realize he was fake. I felt so, so violated, so abused...

I use my energy here to help myself undo the mess in me and hoping it benefits others. U truly love ALL people. I don't like many of them, I detest many of them but I had to honor my essence.

Do you kow that studies proved that 90% of people in mental institutions recover from depression by changing their diets and increasing their intake of trace minerals and essential aminoacids? I think vegetearians are prone to feel depressed because it's difficult to get all nutrients needed, meaning, balancing it?

I recommend anyone who wants to learn about their bodies nutritional needs to get the book called, Prescription for Natural Healing, the third edition, 750 pages reference book and learn what you may be missing. It truly helped me a lot! Very easy to understand. There is a web site on it. Great book! I feel healthy and strong. Mind, body and spirit got to be well to be able to feel good, and it may take some time but we CAN get better: We owe it to ourselves, innocent people, dupped to believe so much crap!

Good luck to you! LOVE 2 u

silvia

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:46:13 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: trace elements
Message:
Now that is what I am talking about!! Yesterday I had a 2 pound steak for dinner! I love to get plenty of those trace elements!

(I know this is probobly not the most balanced diet, but this is an overreaction I developed when I left the cult) Are they stil vegetarians?

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:57:50 (GMT)
From: s
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: many are. I don't. I like my beef, of couse.
Message:
not often, but I do like it. Sorry animal lovers. i can't pass it. it must be because I'm from where the best beef comes from. LOL. ARGENTINA!!
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:21:18 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Jim's 5/29 post
Message:
whoever you are buster

i think you are one of those pwk's that pull over others
and thats what their success is made of. I know quite a bunch
of that kind.
But the most serious proof that you are philosophing your phrases
is that you are even writing them.
Whatever this JIm has touched inside of you.
Be thankful and take a deep look in the mirror.

Toby

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:40:16 (GMT)
From: susi
Email: None
To: toby
Subject: Jim's 5/29 post
Message:
And they call themselves HAPPY PEOPLE, loving?

What a bunch of crap!

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:47:04 (GMT)
From: Mr bill
Email: None
To: susi
Subject: Perhaps we see the larger picture and you dont?
Message:
Hello Mr Williams,

Fine with me that you find a way to make this a perhaps
workable part of your life.
I dont think the rest of us were doing much else for many years.

There are reasons you know, why some of us find a need to
view all the data we have and make an assessment based on that.

When you make a business committment, and you dont come through
yet insist that no one complain or dare even question your
purity, as Mr Rawat certainly did recently in Miami when they
showed the video where he said 'And do not EVER question the
purity of the master'...........well, that is some defense
isnt it?

Would that be acceptable in any other field of life?
Would you accept that out of anyone else alive?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:45:02 (GMT)
From: Giggles
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rawat greases the wheels to the tune of 5K
Message:
Contributions Received

The Embassy of India thankfully acknowledges receipt of over 3000 checks of varying amounts in favor of the Prime Minister's Relief Fund for being utilized for relief work in the earthquake affected areas of Gujarat.

As on February 22, 2001, the Embassy has received about US $ 600,000 from individuals and organizations from different parts of the United States. We are making all efforts to individually acknowledge each check at the earliest.

While we are thankful for the smallest contribution that has come, we list below the contributions of US $ 1000 and above received by us so far:

Mr. Prem Pal Singh Rawat ($ 5000)
Malibu, CA 90265

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:31:05 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Giggles
Subject: I gave, too, and so did many thousands - anon...
Message:
In fact, we just had a bunch of benefit concerts for the earthquake relief.

Well, we know that Bulbous guano ji aka Satpal tries to portray himself as a humanitarian in India, so lil'bro rival guru has got to keep up appearances, too. It's good p.r., too, versus the bad publicity of milking of tens of millions of US dollars from naive people via guru racketeering diverted for gross guru indulgence in the maya.

N. America and Europe provide more than 90%+ of the funding for m. and EVI. If you will notice, however, heavy propagation only takes place in countries where the superstitious bhakti juju is a tradition [like India, Nepal, and Mauritius], in so-called Third World countries where the electrical technology of video programs is somehow novel or free entertainment, and where there is not a high percentage of the population hooked up to the information highway of the internet [or where they don't speak English].

Yes, N. America and Europe dropping off map - but providing the m. cult buckos - and the mega-rich lifestyles. India providing mass ignorant superstitious p.r. numbers for the cult, but virtually no rupees. Playing the same ol' game - some phlegmies giving big bucks for good seats, bucks for Amaroo eats, bucks for megalomaniacal spiritual cheats - all going down the toilets of the gorging rival ratwat brothers drowning in the ocean of pompous delusion and material illusion - while propagating idolatry and confusion.

Yes indeed, 'if you slip on a banana peel, do not blame the banana. It was your own unconsciousness.'

Yes, guru is grater vs. god, because a greedy guru truly grates on God's otherwise infinite nerves.

Peace and lentils,

PS Please not to confuse any flippant imposters with da lil' swami et friends. Thanka so mucho. Namaste Allahu akbar mazeltov in excelsis deo.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:23:12 (GMT)
From: Where did you get this?
Email: None
To: Giggles
Subject: Is this from a website? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:59:10 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Where did you get this?
Subject: Here is the link
Message:
From www.indianembassy.org:

Embasssy of India - Gujarat Earthquake - Contributions Received

Considering his net worth is in the tens of millions, maybe even around 100 million, he can easily afford a measly 5K to grease the wheels.

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