Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:50:44 (GMT)
From: May 30, 2001 To: Jun 04, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


Deputy Dog -:- An open letter to Maharaji -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:35:12 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- An open letter to Maharaji -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:38:37 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Will this do? -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:35:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Please fill in the blanks if you can -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:43:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- can't help you on that one...but here's -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:01:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- I'm hip to Arti, it's the other comments that are -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:10:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- I'm hip to Arti, it's the other comments that are -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:57:12 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- For the millionth time, Sandy -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:19:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- #12 in full...you are not a very thorough person -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 11:37:13 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Aren't you just being 'pussy-whipped?' -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:28:43 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Better to be pussy whipped by his wife than to be -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:53:01 (GMT)
__ Scot j -:- An open letter. Beauty! NT -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 14:30:01 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Dog, you can sign my name to it also except for -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:21:21 (GMT)
__ Jimi -:- An open letter to Maharaji -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 06:56:41 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- 'Pop,' goes the weasel. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 06:26:09 (GMT)
__ __ silvia -:- The WITHIN crapp -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:14:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- The WITHIN crapp -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:08:37 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Through The Looking Glass DD... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 00:17:11 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- An open letter to Mr D Dog -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:41:14 (GMT)
__ __ Tim G -:- An open letter to Mr Tim G -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:46:22 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Let's look at the letter a little bit closer DD -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:19:02 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- 5M bird? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:04:12 (GMT)
__ SB/Silvia -:- You are getting better, you are reclaiming -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:14:37 (GMT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- You are getting better, you are reclaiming -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:26:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- You are getting better, you are reclaiming -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:55:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ silvia -:- You are getting better, you are reclaiming -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:11:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Kaj -:- feedback to DD -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:51:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ S -:- feedback to Kaj -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:55:53 (GMT)

Deborah -:- Bring me up to date on RawRat Family Members :) -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:10:12 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Living on the premies dole -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:14:58 (GMT)
__ bill -Hansie is the black -:- sheep so he might be a forum reader.......nt -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:15:31 (GMT)

Joe -:- The Maharaji Breath Religion -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:33:44 (GMT)
__ G -:- another assumption he makes ... -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:46:48 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- it is the heart - not the breath -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 14:34:12 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- The breath is Hindu mumbo jumbo -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:52:05 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- put him on a respirator! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:42:35 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- The Maharaji Breath Religion -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:29:10 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- The Catch 22 -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:46:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- The Catch 22...exactly, Joe (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:52:20 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- It's the Cosmic Hindu Fairy Tale -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:10:07 (GMT)
__ Silvia -:- BAD Breath Religion? NT LOL -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:28:16 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Yes, the Fat Breatharians (nt) -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:50:31 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Now cut that out! (nt) -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:21:43 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- What really happens when you die -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:47:42 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Spot on, Sir Dave -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:52:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- Spot on, indeed -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:13:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Sheesh, Mili! Completely uncalled for! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:09:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Oh, it's the Matron herself! What an honor. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:55:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Is that any way to treat a friend, Mili? (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:37:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Be careful Mili -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:21:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Sorry Dave -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 07:33:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- Go work in a nursing home for a while -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:49:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- But you are totally wrong Mili -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:00:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Isn't it obvious -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:04:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Obvious Mili's never experienced meditation -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- See, that's what I mean -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:01:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- Isn't it obvious -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:01:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Isn't it obvious - FRUADSTER follows FRAUD. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:11:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Oh really! Is that WHY!! you read -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 00:43:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marolyn Kyntyre -:- Slow down woman -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:40:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Look after yourself, dear -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:53:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- and you Mili.... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 00:43:14 (GMT)
__ __ silvia -:- It makes sense, I never thought about it LOL -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:33:03 (GMT)

Joe -:- Shri Hans Death and What Happens at Death -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:18:09 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- Shri Hans Death by bar of soap?? -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:49:38 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Must be an urban myth , like the one about .. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:48:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kaj -:- The bar of soap is true, no myth -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:59:20 (GMT)
__ G -:- Merge with your first breath? -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:58:08 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Good question -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:23:18 (GMT)
__ Silvia -:- hahahahahahahaha -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:43:58 (GMT)
__ __ kev -:- Changing stories -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:23:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Silvina -:- Like Jm said: MAHARAJI IS A total MORON -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:20:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ probono -:- Like Jm said: MAHARAJI IS A total MORON -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 08:14:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ kev -:- Like Jm said: MAHARAJI IS A total MORON -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:11:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Silvia Sommer -:- Like Jm said: MAHARAJI IS A total MORON -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:25:53 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- EV France communique re the Versailles' mess -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:43:49 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- 1.300,000 chairs in 7 years=5,000 pwks in west? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:03:29 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Here's the Babel Fish translation -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:41:55 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Thank you J-M, This part I like best: -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:30:27 (GMT)
__ __ bill-more lies from ev -:- 1million 300,000 people attended in 7 years-HA!.nt -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:14:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- 1million 300,000 people attended in 7 years-HA!.nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:54:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Those are the dummies he was refering to -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 00:42:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- 1million 300,000 people attended in 7 years-HA!.nt -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:52:58 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Here's the Babel Fish translation -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:27:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Man of independent means - ha -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:36:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Man of independent means - ha -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:14:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Nor does EV open their books. -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:48:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Speculation -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:41:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- Speculation -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:54:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- Speculation -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:03:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- More speculation -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:14:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ clh -:- More speculation -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:24:43 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- 'Vital Dash'? 'Personal Blooming?' Excellent! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:50:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- JM - another odd bit of translation -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:27:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Yes: heart=coeur -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:25:03 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Could you translate por favor? st -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:40:39 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- EV France communique re the Versailles' mess -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:05:49 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- India counts for this -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:08:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- I Think You're Supporting My Point -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 14:58:47 (GMT)

Silvia -:- TO SILLY MILLI vanili -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:25:24 (GMT)
__ Mili -:- Sorry SB -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:36:45 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Mili.enium, could you provide a link to -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:28:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- Mili.enium, could you provide a link to -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:32:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Hey! FRAUDSTER!! Do your employers know ... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 11:33:33 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Hey Monkey-Boy--yea you! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:40:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- You sure sound like you could give some pointers.. -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:17:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sb -:- and you wish: I saw you: You are UGLY all over. -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:18:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- You are so profound for a Monkey Boy (NT) -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:23:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ S -:- You are so profound for a Monkey Boy LOL -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:21:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- As much as I like spirited exchanges... -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:02:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- As much as I like spirited exchanges... -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:25:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Nomination for best typo of the week: studpidly -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:29:54 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Is this the same Mili who... -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:01:10 (GMT)
__ __ Silvia B.Sommer -:- I wont be just fine, later, I'M FINE NOW -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:55:46 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Sorry for your FRAUD, Mili? -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:43:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- No use trying to talk with him, John -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:48:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- No use trying to talk with him, John -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:57:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- you're right! NT -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:56:20 (GMT)

creativejani -:- o.k, then can we have a search thingy?I think it w -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:08:05 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Use Sir Dave's Search Engine -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:23:23 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- thanks,,didn'tknowhehadone!nt -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:07:26 (GMT)

creativejani -:- Help coming to terms with it...freedomofmind.com -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:31:49 (GMT)
__ kev -:- Help coming to terms with it...freedomofmind.com -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:36:59 (GMT)

Disculta -:- Ashram dreams and note to new exes -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 11:55:48 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- Ashram dreams and note to new exes -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:40:48 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- years of being blissed out in his presence..... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:36:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gary Epton -:- working it out -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:12:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Joe's thoughts mirror some of my own -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:28:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- Joe's thoughts mirror some of my own -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 06:34:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- The experiences themselves were real -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:05:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- But Francesca, what does 'real' mean? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:03:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- A feeling is a feeling is a feeling -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:07:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- Good Post -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:48:25 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- The monastic life . -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:56:33 (GMT)
__ Carl -:- There are two kinds of people in this world . . . -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:32:42 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- I really don't understand you guys -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:55:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carl -:- Welcome back Jim. Nice to hear your views again .. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:02:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks for reminding me, Carl. We're all individu -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:34:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Inclusiveness -- I don't see how it could hurt. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 11:56:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Not getting the same point as you -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:05:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What 'worthy experiences'? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:03:10 (GMT)
__ __ Gary Epton -:- Good post Carl..........(nt) -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:58:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Good posts Carl and Gary - thank you -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:55:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Carl -:- Here here, Pat, well said. (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:08:04 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Good Topic of Discussion -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:20:53 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Black and White 'ism' -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:53:43 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Black and White 'ism' -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:12:38 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Disculta - your last paragraph -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:31:52 (GMT)
__ Paul -:- Ashram dreams and note to new exes -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:56:07 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- That only makes sense if you're 'spiritual' -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:26:00 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- Honesty! You're right, we need to see.. -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:12:21 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- All these posts are good! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:50:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Are you saying .... -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:14:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Are you saying .... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:40:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Good, honest answer -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:36:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I'll get high with a little help from my friends -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:42:56 (GMT)
__ Scot Jamieson -:- (To new exes.) Much appreciated. Very true. NT. -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:12:06 (GMT)

Jim -:- Nostalgia is indiscriminate -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:00:21 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- Nostalgia is indiscriminate -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:51:50 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Nostalgia is a drug -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:29:39 (GMT)
__ Michele Deradune -:- And then there's 20/20 hindsight too -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 13:58:19 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- You're characterization of me is not correct -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:53:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- My apologies, Richard -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:30:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- That's not an apology--it's an EX-Cuse (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:33:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Thanks and please stick around /nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:50:10 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Michelle-'sont les mots qui vont PAS tres bien -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:53:28 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Just give me the facts please maam. -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:28:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- Just give me the facts please maam. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 07:36:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Mr Williams, you're too close to the trees, -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:16:14 (GMT)
__ __ La-ex -:- Oh Ms, Banana-Dune---2 ?'s from a simple guy... -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:35:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michele Deradune -:- Oh Ms, Banana-Dune---2 ?'s from a simple guy... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 05:22:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- I need to make one thing perfectly clear -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 06:07:00 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Michele, mabye you just grew up -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:49:30 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- Do let us know if you are 'contacted' -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:21:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Bas, do us all a favor... -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:49:17 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- I think you're just substituting... -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:23:55 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Let me get this straight -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:20:14 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- And then there's 20/20 hindsight too -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:00:34 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- That's inane -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:27:43 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- And then there's self-delusion -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:20:42 (GMT)
__ __ Silvia -:- or 0, like you. BLIND! -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:07:56 (GMT)
__ __ Michele Deradune -:- typo -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:01:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- typo -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:09:15 (GMT)
__ Sam Hardy -:- Talking of Arthur Brigham -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:07:44 (GMT)

Silvia Sommer -:- David Smith, David Mancoff, EV? Want to talk -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:55:08 (GMT)
__ How about -:- Joan Apter, Ira Woods, and Bill Patterson ? (nt) -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:04:47 (GMT)
__ LdM repost -:- Three stages of cult recovery -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:01:03 (GMT)
__ __ suchabananer -:- 1 barf cult/cry;2 drink 6-pak;3 wakeup sober/alive -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:42:36 (GMT)
__ __ Gary Epton -:- Thanks for that (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:25:39 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Three stages of cult recovery/excellent ! nt -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:58:24 (GMT)
__ __ s -:- thank you, much nt -:- Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:03:59 (GMT)

Silvia -:- Where is the MONEY going: EV is broke -:- Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:51:01 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:35:12 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: An open letter to Maharaji
Message:
Maharaji, in the recent Miami event, you told all those in attendance to “NEVER, EVER doubt the purity of the Master.” Well, I hate to admit it, but I’m having a little difficulty with that one. You see, it’s this damn EPO site.

I keep reading stuff here about you:

1. aiding and abetting a follower of yours, who repeatedly hit a reporter in the head with a hammer, just for throwing a pie at you;
2. getting drunk three or four times a week;
3. screwing around on your wife;
4. verbally and psychologically abusing people who have devoted their lives to you;
5. misusing donations intended to spread Knowledge, for example the $7 million yacht;
6. killing a man with your car and having someone else take the blame;
7. ignoring sexual abuses committed by one of your instructors;
8. blaming the people around you when things go wrong, even though everyone knows you’re in charge;
9. having people procure premie women for you for one night stands and then unceremoniously dumping them.
10. claiming to be part of a legitimate spiritual succession. (When according to official documents, Shri Hans’ guru, Swarupanand, empowered hundreds of mahatmas to continue his work, without giving special authority to any one mahatma. Even though there are hundreds of names on his list, apparently your father’s name isn't there);
11. saying on the EV site that you are an ordinary human no different than everybody else, and then having people line up to kiss your feet;
12. saying you never called yourself the superior power in person, and insisting that anyone who ever thought you claimed to be the messiah is either stupid or badly mistaken;

So as a result of the above, it’s extremely difficult for me to think of you as pure. In fact I now seriously doubt your purity. Can you blame me?

You see, I’m an old-fashioned kind of guy who believes that actions speak louder than words. In my opinion, people who are pure practice what they preach and care about their fellow human beings. They are loyal, true to their word, conscientious, dependable, decisive, straightforward, courteous, honest, and above board.

In my humble opinion, people who are pure are: virtuous, genuine, fair, clear, guiltless, authentic, simple, moral, guileless, sincere, natural, honest, and real. And to be perfectly honest, from what I’ve read here, it’s difficult for me to associate you with these qualities.

So Maharaji, please don’t order me to think of you as pure. Sadly, I just can’t.

On a more positive note Maharaji, let me say that:

1. Knowledge is the best thing that’s ever happened to me, and I’m genuinely grateful I have it. Thank you for that! Knowledge gets me in touch with the purity within. I can’t thank you enough for coming to the West and giving me Knowledge so freely,
2. You are an excellent public speaker,
3. You definitely have charisma and a sense of humor,
4. You inspire me to go within, and
5. I’ll probably continue to watch you on video.

But purity? Pulllllleeeeeeze.

I honestly hope you are not offended by this note, critical though it is. In fact what I’m saying here could be of value to you. Why? Because the second law of Thermodynamics states that natural processes in closed systems move from order to chaos. A closed system is any system that does not receive energy from the outside. If an organization does not have energy, information, or transactions coming from the outside it eventually gets corrupt, because we can’t correct problems we can’t see.

I’m posting on EPO because I strongly suspect you don't read the stuff you invite premies to post on EV. You have even implied you don’t. However I do know you monitor this site. And even though you probably don’t give a sh*t about what I’m saying, I had to express my feelings about your recent order to, “Never doubt the purity of the Master.” I just couldn’t sit still and let that one go by.

Thank you for your time.

P.S. I apologize for not using my name, but I have family members who, for reasons of their own, would rather I don’t go public with my opinions.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:38:37 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: An open letter to Maharaji
Message:
12. saying you never called yourself the superior power in person, and insisting that anyone who ever thought you claimed to be the messiah is either stupid or badly mistaken... -DD

DD:

Please refer me to the place where he said #12 in full. This I gotta see. Do you hear the sound of a camel's back breaking and the sound of a straw floating in the wind?

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:35:37 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Will this do?
Message:
Written by Prem Pal Sibgh Rowat aka Maharaji aka Guru Maharaj Ji
as an addition to Arti, a traditional Hindu song of devotion.

The Lord is the maker of all things created
He keeps them and bring them all home to His Word
The Lord is the SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON
I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:43:05 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Please fill in the blanks if you can
Message:
Jethro,

The excerpt below is what I wanted reference on, but thanks for letting me know that Maharaji himself wrote that verse to Arti and now claims he never said he was God. Semantics? Way more.

'...and insisting that anyone who ever thought you claimed to be the messiah is either stupid or badly mistaken...'
-excerpt from #12 that I asked for information on and have not gotten yet

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:01:47 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: can't help you on that one...but here's
Message:
the other verse he added to Arti

Meditation begins in the form of our master,
Adoration begins at the feet of our lord,
Concentration begins in the words of our master,
Liberation begins in the grace of our lord.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:10:49 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: I'm hip to Arti, it's the other comments that are
Message:
attributed to Maharaji that I want to see sources on, referring to him saying that someone must be wacko or whatever he said, if they thought he was the Divinity in person, referring to #12.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:57:12 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: I'm hip to Arti, it's the other comments that are
Message:
Sandy,

In a recent video, he implied people must be wacko to think he was God in his tone of voice and facial expressions. So, okay forget about point #12 and just go with the first 11.

DD

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:19:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: For the millionth time, Sandy
Message:
Have you actually read the quotes page on this site? Here's just one such place where he said '#12 in full':

'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ......
When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith.'

(Various excerpts - Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji)

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 11:37:13 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: #12 in full...you are not a very thorough person
Message:
Jim:

This is the part I wanted a source on, and that's why I asked for source material in full:

'...and insisting that anyone who ever thought you claimed to be the messiah is either stupid or badly mistaken...'
-excerpt from #12 that I asked for information on and have not gotten yet

Anyone who was half-conscious knows the stuff you threw at me in bold caps above, yet another cyber assault from you in one night, the other one being the all caps digust rap which I also answered calmly and with the knowing that you are very mistaken about that which you have spoken with me last night. The part I want a source on as quoted above, is that a real quote or is that just someone's poetic license gone a bit awry?

It just shows me and anyone paying attention how far you still have to go...

I cleaned up my shit with Mr. Mind last night literally hours before you jumped on it and tore it up like a pitbull with a teddy bear. Just goes to show a few things about you. You are negatively oriented, you jump to negative conclusions and you don't take the time to read a thread thoroughly to get the picture before you jump on a person, or at least you jump on me. Jump off and get your shit together. Is that how you prep for your cases? If you are going to bring the adversarial crap that you learned by lawyering with you here, then please also bring the wisdom and maturity of a good counselor with you as well. All this just shows anyone paying attention how far you still have to go.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:28:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Aren't you just being 'pussy-whipped?'
Message:
P.S. I apologize for not using my name, but I have family members who, for reasons of their own, would rather I don’t go public with my opinions.

Dog,

Isn't this just a matter of you having a premie wife who wants to feel comfortable and issue-free in your local premie community? There isn't any greater 'reason of [her] own' is there?

So what are you going to do? Hide your identity behind a cartoon character forever? Don't think it doesn't compromise the strength of whatever message you have for Maharaji or others. It most certainly does. As you yourself said, 'actions speak louder than words'. In this case, coming clean as a real person is the 'action' that counts. You know that.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:53:01 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim and all other readers
Subject: Better to be pussy whipped by his wife than to be
Message:
dick whipped by you. There's more invested where he lives than with you, but you may not understand this part of the human condition, the reality of relationships and how they cannot always be handled in the rough and tumble manner of James Heller Esq.

Just because you feel impotent or miserable for your own personal reasons (who or what is whipping YOU???), must you try to make everyone around you feel the same way as a gambit in a conversation to gain a false sense of being on higher ground?

As for the crass sexual references, to all other readers, please forgive me. I am merely illustrating a point here and giving back to Jim what he routinely gives to anyone he chooses. If more people spoke up and did not condone his shit, perhaps he would finally grow up in this respect.

Until then,

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 14:30:01 (GMT)
From: Scot j
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: An open letter. Beauty! NT
Message:
NY
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:21:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Dog, you can sign my name to it also except for
Message:
You said: ''1. Knowledge is the best thing that’s ever happened to me, and I’m genuinely grateful I have it. Thank you for that! Knowledge gets me in touch with the purity within. I can’t thank you enough for coming to the West and giving me Knowledge so freely.''

I posted this below but it fits better here: ''I too had good times with M and K but now very much take issue with using the word ''Knowledge'' (eventhough I will resort to it as shorthand when beginning a discussion with a premie.)

''None of us know what anyone else experienced other than that it was nice but what is nice for one guy is not necessarily the same for another. My involvement with M and K definitely showed me that I did not need drugs to get high - but what I mean by high may not be the same as what you mean.

''Rev Pimple Rawat's big con is making the premies think that they are experiencing some sort of uniform universal cosmic truth and, even worse, that it comes from him. The fact that he no longer says that his ''Knowledge is God'' but refers to it as ''Knowledge of Self'' is still deceptive and nonsense because he is still cloaking it with mystery and still implying that it is a universal truth.

''Why did the techs work for some and not others? Because they are not essential. What is essential is aiming for and achieving what one wants and how that is obtained really is not important.

''What I learnt from my years with M and K is that I am the master of my own subjective happiness and that all of it came from either my own efforts at meditation or because of my love for him. Not, premies please note, HIS love for me (he didn't even know I was alive) but MY love for him.''

You said: ''2. You are an excellent public speaker.''

I say: ''Only if you really are blindly in love with him otherwise he sounds repetitive and silly.''

You said: ''3. You definitely have charisma and a sense of humor.''

I say: ''Only if you really are blindly in love with him otherwise he sounds repetitive and silly. Okay I concede I like his toilet humor.''

You said: ''4. You inspire me to go within.''

I say: ''Don't you have any self-motivation? Or are you forgetful? How many times do you have to be reminded?''

You said: ''5. I’ll probably continue to watch you on video.''

I gave all my hundreds of videos away except for the Atlanta Propagation Seminar speech which was my final drip and I watched ten minutes of it a few weeks ago and nearly puked.

I just emailed this to a premie friend of mine who was shocked that I had turned against the urug.

''Of course K works without M. It's been around for thousands of years. He gave me a big boost in the 70s but it started to dwindle after that. Kabir guruism is simply the popularization of gyanyoga for the masses - especially Radhasoami guruism of which Shri Hans was a descendant. It's the fastest growing religion in the world and M is only one of many Radhasoami gurus teaching it.

''It's a bit like revivalism for gyana - charismatic preachers. The guru works for people who need to be reminded. I realized I did not need to be reminded anymore when I started having better experiences in meditation than I did when I went to see him. And it was cheaper and less constipating.

''I only hung in there in the past 17 years because I agreed with his aim of popularizing it but it's gotten to the point where I am embarassed with the ways things are going. It's too secretive and cult-like for my tastes. And I am ashamed of M.

''I preferred the good old days when I was proud of it and we really were going to bring peace to the whole world and that's what I could joyfully proclaim. Now I have to go to a stupid fucking Propagation Training Seminar to make sure I toe the new revisionist line before I can tell my friends and family that everything they ever needed was inside them. It's a bunch of hooey. How can love and joy and excitement be organized, intitutionalized and sterilized?

Anyway, I know you don't want to hear this stuff and I'm really not into pushing my point of view. De gustibus non est disputandum is my motto.''

You've yanked at least one premie's chain with your post, Dog. Now why don't yank that chain around your own neck that is being held by your master and be free?

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 06:56:41 (GMT)
From: Jimi
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: An open letter to Maharaji
Message:
DD,

You can't believe everything you hear, now can you? So, if you'll excuse me, I must be on my wayyyyyyyyy

'Bbbbollocks! I don't believe it!'

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 06:26:09 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: 'Pop,' goes the weasel.
Message:
DD:

1. Knowledge is the best thing that’s ever happened to me, and I’m genuinely grateful I have it. Thank you for that! Knowledge gets me in touch with the purity within. I can’t thank you enough for coming to the West and giving me Knowledge so freely,

It is something of a dilemma, if you believe K to be a central logo of human spirit, with what regard you ought to esteem the vehicle who introduced it on a large scale. I suspect that if you could only conceive of an *alternate* route for the introduction (and we can put our heads together on that) the dilemma would disappear. The route determined the vehicle, and not the other way around.

2. You are an excellent public speaker,

I don't see it. He has confidence, that's all.

3. You definitely have charisma and a sense of humor,

I don't know how 'definite' it is, but he seems to have charisma according to my understanding, or in terms of the way sociologists think of it. Bear in mind, however, that this is as much a quality conferred upon him by his followers, as possessed by him from the beginning. There is such a thing as a 'charismatic society,' or what Gellner and the Islamists call the Umma. A society based on virtue must, however, at some point not only understand what virtue is, but demonstrate it. Is he teaching you virtue?

4. You inspire me to go within, and

Well, not me.

5. I’ll probably continue to watch you on video.

I'll pass.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:14:57 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The WITHIN crapp
Message:
Give the guy a brake: Can you believe DD posted above?!!

He'll figure it out.

DD still needs external support. Maybe he should try reading instead. Mahariachi is such a BAD teacher of how to enjoy life...

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:08:37 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: The WITHIN crapp
Message:
Syvia:

I thought I was being supportive. I said it seems to be a genuine dilemma, but suggested that this is only an appearance. I mean, for whatever it's worth he *did* serve as the focal point for introducing this experience (or whatever it is) to the West. Not him alone, mind you. Other cult scams, like the Yogananda cult and Ek Ankar did it too. Essentially it's like the pollination of flowers by bees. They don't really give a damn about the sex life of flowers. All they care about is gathering pollen and making honey, and more bees. So, what should we do about those killer bees? Depends on the alternatives, I guess.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 00:17:11 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Through The Looking Glass DD...
Message:
...Rawatlaw dynamic states that closed systems move from chaos to order as long as you're putting in the time ssm or modern equivalent jargon wise , in the fight against entropy .

WOOF
Pat Dorrity .

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:41:14 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: An open letter to Mr D Dog
Message:
Dear Stranger..your stance sounds familiar. It is the dawning of your own intelligence. Believe me the circle can't be squared. Better still you are on the brink of regaining your discrimination which in itself has the key to that corny old 'That Place'. I strongly suspect that Mr Rawat has never experienced the bliss he speaks of .

For me, the sign of an enlightened and inspiring person is kindness and compassion, both visibly absent from Mr R.

It really is fundamentaly true that you cannot allow another person to be a guide or judge of your own progress in life. You are the only one who can see every nook and cranny of your life and thus learn from self-knowledge. Relying on someone else is avoiding the fact and postponing making any meaningful change in your life.

O.K. enough theoretical posturing . Lets just experiment with what it feels like to take charge of your life . To be responsible is the beginning of wisdom.

Premies were hungry for 'experience'. Really no different to being hungry for drink or sex. Still another game for the ego to play. Just look at Mr Rawat himself and obviously you are. This is a good start.

Bon Voyage, my friend

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:46:22 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: An open letter to Mr Tim G
Message:
From the above post it might appear that the hunger for sex is a function of the ego. Far from it. Or not neccessarily. As for drink I suppose it might be a pleasurable (sometimes) avoidance. I can't remember.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:19:02 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Let's look at the letter a little bit closer DD
Message:
I was enjoying this post till I came to the part

1. Knowledge is the best thing that’s ever happened to me, and I’m genuinely grateful I have it. Thank you for that! Knowledge gets me in touch with the purity within. I can’t thank you enough for coming to the West and giving me Knowledge so freely,
2. You are an excellent public speaker,
3. You definitely have charisma and a sense of humor,
4. You inspire me to go within, and
5. I’ll probably continue to watch you on video.

1.Maharaji didn't come to give you something so freely, he came to take advantage of us for his own sick twisted pursits.
Why? Those techniques along with their meanings are freely available for those who can read. Why didn't he just put an ad in the New York Times with instructions? Remember the 5M bird and Yacht, and mansions and golden crappers. Western not Eastern Bliss!

2.Maharaji isn't a public speaker, he's a public manipulator

3. Maharaji's charisma is not him, but the beauty you have discovered projected onto him and he's apparently has a twisted fucked up sense of humor...or haven't you noticed by these postings

4. I can't prove what Maharaji does or does not inspire YOU to do but is irrefutable that Maharaji clearly inspired people to not trust the world or their innermost thoughts and referred to Knowledge as 'the knowledge you don't get in College'. Fuck you Maharaji, I have 4 yrs. of College and 4 1/2 yrs. of University since I 'drifted quietly' away from you. And you're right, Rawat, College professors insist you learn CRITICAL THINKING skills you little Mind-Fuck piece of shit.

5. Maharaji uses the medium of the video for very strategic reasons. Someone posted a lucid discription of how he commands and dominates your attention while having you watch is radioactive image in a cold and isolated environment. It is a 2-dimensional screen trying to convey a real image. Good analogy of his GuruShip. DD. Read the book 'Four arguements for the Argument of Television' by Jerry Mander. It discusses the technical, psychological, and yes physical implications of television's effects on humanity. Also keep in mind that your aroused devotion, coupled with Alpha wave sensitivity ripens your subconscious for overt and covert messages.

Do you still consider yourself a Premie? If so, Why? Why do you want to associate with him now that you are allowing your conscious mind to read and understand the truth. You sound like your experiencing a release on one hand but alas! repressing the repressions on the other. Once you find out you've been served shit in disguise of food, you put the fork down.

One more bite and you may find yourself prostating to the porceline throne.

Peace to you.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:04:12 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: 5M bird?
Message:
If you are referring to the plane, I think it is more like 40-50 million.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:14:37 (GMT)
From: SB/Silvia
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You are getting better, you are reclaiming
Message:
your individuality and that is a big step for you to post this here. You 'sound' like a new person, well, almost.

Watchiing videos of a criminal, acting like a proud knowing all rooster, well, I don't get that.

Interesting how tricky is this guru, how hard he grabbed you by your balls, isn't? I give you a little time and you'll see with OUR eyes.

Why do I need him for? Have I forgotten who I was before meeting him? Am I not aware of he caused in my life?The problem got created when I open my ears toooo much and got curious to know 'what I was missing, THE K OF ALL K, WHOW, I said, me, 18 years old. And? Ok DD, do as you please, some dogs do need masters!

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:26:33 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: SB/Silvia
Subject: You are getting better, you are reclaiming
Message:
I'm not sure I need a master, because I've always been pretty independant, although no one is an island.

I do, however, value the experience of Knowledge, and I go to videos just for the reminder to go inside. That's where my boss lives by the way, not in Malibu.

The subliminal laden media tells me to look outside for satisafaction. 'Buy this, smoke this, eat this, and you'll be happy.' I guess I'm too jaded, too Eastern to fall for that.

Been there done that.

Thanks for the responses. Glad you think I'm getting better.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:55:12 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You are getting better, you are reclaiming
Message:
This last post by you, Dog, is so undefensive and wonderful.

That's all.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:11:51 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You are getting better, you are reclaiming
Message:
That is okay, take your time. I think you are getting the truth.

Of course every human being has to find true contentment 'inside', where else are our emotions? Emotions dictate beliefs and so on. All people have concioussnes and enough tools to do that on their own and to say that one needs a master or teacher is a fallacy of thought; it doesn't square. We were dupped by his ognorance, we became ignorants ourselves, folowing HIS beliefs. There are so many books and as I said before, I was not a sad person before meeting lard. I was practicing yoga as relaxation and was doing fine! honest! I just got trapped in his incredible proposition how following THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE, GOD INCARNATED! AND THEN I LOST MY FREEDOM, I became a premie, adoring another being in an unhealthy way. I lost myself.

What advertisments tell you is true but people as I see it make an effort to avoid being influenced by the offered crap. That is where you understand taht there are people and people. Low entities and higher evolved beings, with greater concioussness and maharaji, as you well describe him, many of his shortcoming show how dillusive of a being he's but proclaim to be PURE. The guy is sick in the head! He put toooo many concepts in our heads taht like I said long a go to you may be wrong: Re-consider.

When I found out who he really was I felt embarrassed enough to want to turn against him.

I know sooooooo many loving people and they do not follow anything but plain common sense. Do people need another to rule their lives? No. I like that. Simple. I'm so free today DD, almost like I was before I met him.

Get some information, is all over, educate yourself about cult involvement and be open minded and then you can be satisfied without having to be told how to find YOURSELF. Humans do not work well having someone directing their lives because it goes against our own nature, Universal law: Freedom is ours! Free will. Guru takes that away from people. He creates separation: We, them, and we are all one human race. One LOVE.

Love 2 u,

silvia

PS: BTW, I practice some other breathing technique and do light sometiems and do not attach anything to them and feel soooooo gooooooood!

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:51:36 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: feedback to DD
Message:
DD,

Nice changes in you, congratulations! I enjoyed the first half of your letter very much, but can't agree on the last part. Keep on trucking!

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:55:53 (GMT)
From: S
Email: None
To: Kaj
Subject: feedback to Kaj
Message:
when you post to somebody, write under that person's post, right bellow it, is more effective that way. I thought you wrote to me. :)

SB/Silvia, who had to learn the hard way. In the days when I began to post here weird stuff happened....lol

take care, love 2 u,

silvia

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:10:12 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bring me up to date on RawRat Family Members :)
Message:
I mentioned that I've not seen M over his media circus for 12 yrs. approx. Please bring me up to date. Thanks
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:14:58 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Living on the premies dole
Message:
Uneducated beyond high school as far as I know.
Got jobs, Premalata in the cult, through visions international(your ultimate trinket, video store), Dayalata sings at programs. Don't know about Amar only that he's a supporter of his Father's work.
Think Hansi likes to hit on premie women vis a vis his position but doesn't have any use for the knowledge.

Yep, having the good life without any real work or contributing to society. 'The apple doesn't fall from the tree' you know. But did anyone expect different? They have been brainwashed since their birth for God's sake!

Enjoy your posts and perspective, Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:15:31 (GMT)
From: bill -Hansie is the black
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: sheep so he might be a forum reader.......nt
Message:
dvhmjj
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:33:44 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Maharaji Breath Religion
Message:
Has anyone actually looked at what Maharaji is saying these days? This is another excerpt from the Elan Vital website that Maharaji said in Miami recently.

So much gets caught in debate, in speculation, in imagination, in concepts, that reality doesn't have a chance. What is real? The breath inside of you is real.... What action is it that you can possibly do that will be there until your very last breath? Do you really want to be fixing your computer's operating system as you take your last breath? Do you really want to be downloading an email as you take your last breath? Is that what you want?

Why is following your breathing more 'real' that reading email or anything else? Well, maybe breathing is an essential function for your body to stay alive, but so is heart beat, blood flow, a working liver, a functioning brain, etc. I mean people who are in comas can still breathe, and even people who are brain dead can breathe with resperators.

Also, he seems to be saying that the whole point of all this is to practice following your breath, which is one of the meditation techniques, so that when you die you will be more likely remembering your breath than downloading email, and that's better for some reason. Is this because, like he said below, that Shri Hans merged with his breath because he was meditating (supposedly) when he died? And why is that a good thing? Will you merge with email if you are doing that instead?

What the fuck is he talking about? He really is the head of the 'breath religion,' isn't he, a religion with him at the head consuming most of the resources. Will Maharaji be following hiw breath when he dies, or speculating on getting a better yacht than the $7 million one he alreadys has? These are serious questions. Maybe I'll send him an email.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:46:48 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: another assumption he makes ...
Message:
... is that at the very moment of expiration of your last breath, you die. That is often not the case. If someone died in an explosion, it wouldn't matter whether the breath was going in or out. If someone died because they couldn't breath, they would die after their last breath. Most of the time, it is not the inability to breath that causes death. Where does he get this breath = life equality, from some Hindu myth?

This is not a very cheery subject (but Mili seems to get off on it), so here's an alternate take, which makes about as much sense as what Rawat said:

'So much gets caught in debate, in speculation, in imagination, in concepts, that reality doesn't have a chance. What is real? The shit inside of you is real.... What action is it that you can possibly do that will be there until your very last shit? Do you really want to be fixing your computer's operating system as you take your last shit? Do you really want to be downloading an email as you take your last shit? Is that what you want?'

What about the heart pumping? By Rawat's reasoning, why not meditate on it?

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 14:34:12 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: G
Subject: it is the heart - not the breath
Message:
My brother-in-law died recently, and we were there when they turned off his respirator (he was not able to breathe on his own). His heart kept beating for at least five minutes after the respirator was turned off - a long time, because he was young and had a strong heart. Anyway, the 'remember your breath at time of death' saying sounds ludicrous when you've seen someone go through this.

Personally, I don't think Maharaji knows what he's talking about - but what's new about that??

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:52:05 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: The breath is Hindu mumbo jumbo
Message:
I think it is a Hindu thing. The idea that the breath is the life force. I think they came to that conclusion centuries ago before they even knew about circulation, brain waves and the nervous system. When people die, they stop breathing, so, therefore, it must be the thing that is keeping them alive and is the only thing in the creation which is 'real.' I think that's the concept.

I think it's similar to the Catholic idea of 'the soul'. In the early days of DLM we came right out and said that God was the force keeping you alive and meditation let you focus on that. Now, Maharaji doesn't want to talk about knowledge as being an experience of God, so he talks about death ad nauseum, and premies are reduced to explaining that Maharaji is necessary because he reminds his followers to breathe. It really is silly.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:42:35 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: put him on a respirator!
Message:
There are two small centers in the brainstem (medulla) which regulate breathing. for normal healthy people it is the amount of CO2 detected by sensory neurons in one center which drives the urge to breathe. For respiratory patients, and for the dying,the CO2 level can not fall below the treshold anymore because of inefficient lungfunction unable to exchange the CO2 there is a backup center which gives the urge to breathe when the oxygen level in the arteries falls below 92 %.
The other center does not go on strike but will still send out ineffective signals that it is REALLY time to breathe. The endocrine system responds to these messages by pumping stress hormones into the bloodstream, which can make the patient very anxious. This gives in all of us this extreme existential survival feeling when forced to hold your breath. (the urge + the fear)
That is the physiological explanation about the 'most essential' part of being human.
I work in health care and because of my premie history I am of course always very interested in observing the phenomena around the breath and dying.
I would not want to live that way, but I have communicated with quite a few patient who had to live on a respirator, because of paralysis or brainstem injury. Most of them don't say much because of other injuries, but some do, they're not dead, and definitely human.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:29:10 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Maharaji Breath Religion
Message:
Here's what I wonder about all this talk of the breath. If being mindful of the breath was really that big a deal, would we need somebody to henpeck us, like Maharaji, to constantly take notice of it? I don't think so. Don't we gravitate, naturally, toward things we enjoy and that give us pleasure? So, if focusing on the breath was all it's cranked up to be, wouldn't we just be doing that, without the beckonoing of the master? It's not as if the breath is something that we're unaware of. It's right there under our nose, so if that was truly the passageway to bliss, wouldn't we discover that for ourselves, rather early in life?
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:46:31 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The Catch 22
Message:
I agree that it makes no sense. But I think it's the catch 22 that is used by charlatans like Maharaji, to provide a role for themselves that keeps them in Rolls Royces.

Before I received knowledge, all I heard that it was a simple experience that was totally profound, the purpose of your life and was blissful.

Then, I received knowledge, and the first thing I got in the knowledge packet was a letter from Maharaji that I now had a new problem. Now that I had knowledge my MIND was going to start bothering me.

It just degenerated from there. Since knowledge doesn't work, you have to keep praying to Maharaji and trying to connect with him to get to where you need to go. It's all downhill after that, and it turns from a supposedly delightful, simple experience, to a personality and charismatic cult, with Maharaji at the helm, for the relative few who hang around that is.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:52:20 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Catch 22...exactly, Joe (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:10:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: It's the Cosmic Hindu Fairy Tale
Message:
Jerry,

When I first got k I was so excited to learn that God had planted this secret pathway right in the heart of my very own breath. How cool, huh? Just like the story of the deer that looks all over for the musk that's actually exuded by the animal itself. There, right within your breath, is the stairway to heaven. But it's a contest. Life is so complex, the mind so fast and unfocussed. Who has the simple, iron-willed resolve to follow that simple path? Why only a saint, I guess. Someone like Maharaji who's born with total control over his mind or maybe a great soul like mahatma Gurucharanand who, after lifetimes of good karma, has finally achieved that sublime concentration.

So why does the master have to henpeck us like that? It's what it's all about, Jer. It's one breath at a time.

Oh yeah, isn't K great?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:28:16 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: BAD Breath Religion? NT LOL
Message:
lol
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:50:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes, the Fat Breatharians (nt)
Message:
rrrr
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:21:43 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Now cut that out! (nt)
Message:
sdghs
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:47:42 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What really happens when you die
Message:
A small point but I've watched somebody dying and what happens is that they go unconscious and then later on, stop breathing, usually for less than a minute at first and then they start breathing again. This cycle of breathing for a while and then stopping breathing can go on for hours, together with the death rattle and involuntary muscle movements. Of course, they are unconscious at this time and have no awarness of their breath or lack of it.

Eventually, the heart packs up and no blood circulation happens and therefore, no more breathing and only death. The idea that you can be aware of your breathing when you die is a fallacy.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:52:29 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Spot on, Sir Dave
Message:
That corresponds with what I saw when my father died recently, although that part of the process didn't take hours.

Besides, the chance of reading an e-mail at the moment of death is very slight, even if a person is not dying in bed. If a person started having a heart attack while reading e-mail or setting up a system, I'm sure they'd fall down on the floor, or at the very least, stop what they were doing and start the process of dying.

For the days when my father was dying, my whole sense of time went slo-motion, a bit like it did when I watched or was in several car accidents. I'm sure that expanded sense of time would allow anyone to get their mind out of e-mail, or things mundane.

It's the Rat-master's snide way of saying we're all wasting our time. I'd contend that he wasted enough of mine!

LOL, f

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:13:34 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Spot on, indeed
Message:
You people are funnier than the Three Stooges and the Marx brothers put together. :o)

Just reminds me of why I come and read this forum sometimes. A whole lot of laughs for free! Carry on.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:09:32 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Sheesh, Mili! Completely uncalled for!
Message:
Mili,
As Sir David said - it is cruel, completely insensitive, and distastefully when you say that someone who is talking about their father's recent death is a 'lot of laughs'. You owe Francesca a big apology.

I know you've been around on this forum for years, but have no idea why you just showed up recently and started insulting people. I suspect it's because you are bored - and furthermore, I think that you are far more interested in arguing and trading insults with the ex-premies than in practicing knowledge or talking about Maharaji. (I don't even know if you're a premie anymore.)

You certainly haven't posted anything with any content. It's just the same old lines you've been posting for years. I admire your command of English, but your insults sound like something a pre-adolescent would write - they are LAME, Mili.

Frankly, I doubt if you've even READ the ex-premie.org website for the last two or three years - and it's a lot bigger now. Seems like you're just here to provoke people - in other words - you are being a TROLL.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:55:14 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Oh, it's the Matron herself! What an honor.
Message:
Yes, this shitpile has grown - like attracts like, and the flies keep on swarming.

As for whether I am a premie still or not - probably not, according to your definition. But then again, what do you know about it anyway.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:37:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Is that any way to treat a friend, Mili? (nt)
Message:
fffffff
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:21:57 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Be careful Mili
Message:
Your superficiality is showing. I'm one of the first to appreciate or create black humour about death but when people are talking about personal experiences of loved ones dying, then your comments show your true and very shallow colours.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 07:33:57 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sorry Dave
Message:
I didn't really mean to offend anyone. But superficiality is what I am talking about, too. All you've done is presented an 'outsiders' point of view. You won't really know what it's like to die until you go through the experience yourself, won't you? And I'll bet you anything that the breath is indeed the last thing that you'll be aware of. It's the only thing that you'll have left to hang on to give you solace. But that's also true in life as well as in death, too.

Now why is there this trail of old tin cans on a wire making a noise behind me whenever I post here, I wonder..

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:49:07 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Go work in a nursing home for a while
Message:
Then you will have the opportunity to see that you are wrong about this.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 10:00:35 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: But you are totally wrong Mili
Message:
Mili wrote:

'You won't really know what it's like to die until you go through the experience yourself'

I and many others have already been through the experience and survived to tell the tale. In my case it was a heart attack. Other people on this forum have 'died' and lived to talk about it.

While I was gasping for air, the very idea of trying to concentrate on my breath at that time is ridiculous. If you are conscious and dying, the primary instinct is to stay alive and that is an unbelievably strong instinct, far stronger than any other instinct or desire.

Any thought of meditation or religion or fancy ideas goes completely out of the window at that time. There is only one instinct - to stay alive at all costs.

Of course, if you go unconscious through lack of oxygen to the brain, then there is nothing and that is always the precursor to death.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:04:59 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Isn't it obvious
Message:
..that we are talking about the same thing here, Dave?

There, you even said it yourself, While I was gasping for air..

Seems like you got an intense K review refresher there, whether you wanted one or not! ;o)

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:45:54 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Obvious Mili's never experienced meditation
Message:
and I'd say the same was true about Maharaji, too. He's never experienced meditation. The gasping for air as one's heart packs up is a world away from the stillness and peace of mind that one can experience from a bit of meditation.

Obviously, Maharaji doesn't meditate, otherwise he wouldn't have to drink himself into a stupor or smoke hash to get an alternative experience. Anyone who has ever meditated on any of the techniques that Maharaji teaches (incorrectly) would soon realise that Maharaji doesn't know what he's talking about.

Meditation has nothing to do with gurus, incarnations of God, what happens when you die, life after death or any of those things.

Meditation is simply relaxation of the mind onto something. Whether that 'something' be a candle, a vase, a picture, the breath, a visialisation, a thought or whatever - meditation is nothing to do with all the things that Maharaji talks about. Meditation is a gentle practise.

Maharaji's whole attitude clearly indicates that he has not experienced meditation of any kind. Some premies also illustrate the same lack of experience.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:01:21 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: See, that's what I mean
Message:
Maharaji's whole attitude clearly indicates that he has not experienced meditation of any kind.

You can read the most incredibly ridiculous, laughable, inane things on this forum sometimes!

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 13:01:16 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Isn't it obvious
Message:
Forced holding your breath, or shortness of breath gives a strong experience of SURVIVAL , not of LIFE


Do not confuse the two. Experience of life is tranquil, loving and free. Experience of survival is desperate, imperative.
It completely erases love, higher thinking, feelings etc.

Only in reports of heros, those people have actually renounced their survival drive to rescue victims of disasters etc. So here the ultimate humanity is actually opposed to 'the ultimate force' !!!

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:11:09 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Isn't it obvious - FRUADSTER follows FRAUD.
Message:
You are a FRAUDSTER. You follow a FRAUD. You have no credibility.
Some day you are going to have to deal with it.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 00:43:29 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Oh really! Is that WHY!! you read
Message:
You're a liar. You are laughing because you are in the environment of people releasing CLARITY. You are here because you are learning. You are here because you already KNOW M is a fuck head but yet you still deny it.

You want us to BELIEVE you are just getting a hoot out of us. NO ONE is buying it. You are greatful to M ShitForBrains for pretending to give you something but ungreatful and RUDE to those are giving you something. You are only trying to convince yourself that you're here for the laughs. Go watch a Mahaha infomercial.

Now That's Entertainment!

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:40:58 (GMT)
From: Marolyn Kyntyre
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Slow down woman
Message:
I hope you're not so drunk on your own self righteousness to seriously believe your CLARITY comment? Yes there is some, usually from the contented exe's who are happy with their lot and prepared to share their insights with humour and compassion. And yes, from some premies who post. But you are doing no-one any favours by splashing your spite and vicious anger all over the place. Grab Silvia, go and find some men, and for everyone's sake...
CHILL OUT.

The posts you two have been making lately are giving the forum a very ugly hue. My son posts here and I'm happy for that, but some maturity and responsiblity about what you are doing would certainly help.
Really.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:53:22 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: Look after yourself, dear
Message:
Hi Marolyn,

Who are you? Have we met? Who is your son?

Ever read up on cults and the devestating affect they have on people? Know anything about the stages people go thru when leaving a cult? Anger is a very big and necessary part of reclaiming one's mental health after being in a cult, and its release is part of the healing process. Personally, I think Deborah is handling it beautifully with spirited honesty and aplomb. I hope you do as well when YOUR time comes. And it will.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 00:43:14 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: and you Mili....
Message:
you think you are not a joke??

You continue to defend a morally bankrupt mumbo jumbo peddlar from gaga land. A person who fleeces people to amass wealth for his own gratification....and what do you get in return? Four pathetic techniques, a stupid fairy tale scenario of ' god in human form ' backed up by a lying twisted organisation set up soley to perpetuate a myth of Maharajism and keep the law from gujis door.

You say you come here for a laugh ......how come you can't go to any official Maharaji forum and say what's on your mind ? You know why ....you must know why ....unless you really haven't grown up into a free thinking adult human being yet.Guji doesn't allow people to think for and talk amongst themselves, does he?

Still hoping for Santa Claus to sort out your pathetically dependent life Mili?

I understand you tried to shut down this or a similar forum. Was it all too much for you little child. Was the guji puji shitface MASTER of yours gettting crtiticised ?? OHHH diddums little baby ....isn't it a tough cruel world.

And don't think you can play your childish mind games with me little infant .....I won't be reading any more of your shit posts ever again.

If you haven't got a babies rubber teat to suck at the moment .....try sucking your thumb and rocking back and forth .....or try doing the nectar technique.At least it'll stop you from talking shit.

Ciao Punk

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:33:03 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: It makes sense, I never thought about it LOL
Message:
Or read about it. Should I? I don't mean to laugh at death-I'm not afraid of it- but maharaji, the more I hang around here the more I realize what a total loser/liar he is.

If there is something like hell maharaji, I hope you get to visit it for a while, anyway, you have been in 'heaven' for too long, a little hell can suit you good, I think.

Silvia

Hi S.D.!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:18:09 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Shri Hans Death and What Happens at Death
Message:
According to the ever-reliable and truthful Elan Vital, Maharaji said this in Miami recently:

When my father left his body, it was very, very unique. He went into a room, sat down and started to practice the gift of Knowledge. And it went on and on, and people would peek in the room and go, 'Oh, he's still practicing,' and close the door again. But finally, it was going on for too long, and people felt, 'Well, something is wrong.'

And he had gone, he had merged with that in which the whole thing began: that first breath of this air, and that first transition from blue to pink.

Two things. Hasn't it been established that Shri Hans died, not while doing metitation, but when he slipped on a bar of soap in the shower? I know that death is a little unbefitting of the living Perfect Master, but isn't that the case?

Second, is Maharaji saying that if you die in meditation you will 'merge with that in which the whole thing began' and 'the first transition from blue to pink?' Or is he saying this is what happens to everybody.

Now, Maharaji never could speak worth a crap and can't string two sentences together so I'm not surprised this doesn't make much sense, but it appears he is saying you merge with your breath when you die. Isn't this a little weird for the professed meditation master to be saying in 2001? Isn't this some kind of spriritual concept that he is supposedly so against? Sound like a religion?

What about reincarnation that Maharaji always talked about for so many years? What about his more recent refusal to talk about what happens when you die? What the hell is he talking about?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:49:38 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Shri Hans Death by bar of soap??
Message:
Please elaborate! I never heard this one...
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:48:06 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Must be an urban myth , like the one about ..
Message:
...the hamster & the toilet roll .

Nevertheless the old boy is definitley GONZO .

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:59:20 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: The bar of soap is true, no myth
Message:
...I have it as a fact from people close to M who still are premies. I believe it 100%.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:58:08 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Merge with your first breath?
Message:
Did EV put this on their web site?

'blue to pink'

Is he saying that life is nothing more than the oxygenation of the blood?

How can you merge with your first breath? or your last breath? Who would want to? The last breath ENDS.

Or is he talking about some vague concept like 'the Breath'? I'm not sure what that would be, but if it was something like that, why isn't breath capitalized? Oh, but then it would look like some strange religion that worships the Breath, or is it the breath? Oh, this is confusing me.

Yes, what the hell IS he talking about?

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:23:18 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Good question
Message:
I'm not sure what he's talking about. The 'pink to blue' stuff is Maharaji himself. It's from a quote of M in Miami last month.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:43:58 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: hahahahahahahaha
Message:
Why didn't I read this before??? LOL

They are getting more and more weird....Now they play trick minds to attract the reader so one gets a BIG impression, with miraculous thing happening, his concept of holy, etc. I heard from somebody around him that people feel embarrassed themselves listening some of chachashi's ideas, and taht WHO doesn't like to be contradicted: This man has toooo much heart! That is the problem, he plays lilas. IMPOSTOR!

yea, that's what is happening here and we ex-premies don't know about the mystery of life. We are outcasts, nothing, his words,people are just a tiiiiiiiny, tinny little thing, almost nothing. What an idot he is!

Now, Maharaji never could speak worth a crap and can't string two sentences together so I'm not surprised this doesn't make much sense, ...

What made sense he didn't realized it, he repeated because he heard or read it somewhere. He is sooooooo much the opposite of a 'holy loving man' that obviously that too is his concept of 'nice man'.

He should ask Santa what he wants then, instead of lying to his Devotees that he needs maney to propagate hate, and then he uses the money to buy expensive toys! What a spoiled brat! Nobody there.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:23:14 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Changing stories
Message:
Hi Silvia,

Yes you are right this really is weird but what is even weirder for me about this story is this. I remember a few years ago M telling an almost identical story about one of his mahatmas dying in the same way. So is he as Joe said embarrassed about the real story of his fathers death i.e. the slipping on a bar of soap (hardly a fitting end for the Perfect Masters dad). So is he that stupid he thinks we can't even remember stuff from the past? The answer of course is yes, he really is that stupid.

Love kev.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:20:39 (GMT)
From: Silvina
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: Like Jm said: MAHARAJI IS A total MORON
Message:
hahahahaha....

Is funny because this forum gets intense at times for me, but man, it's hilarious to laugh at the expense of the jailer. is too much when I think a little about it. Honest, I come and go, I hardly read, I pick a post and see what happened and god, is so much fun to understand THE REAL TRUTH. 'They' are in lala land, sleeping.

Thanks for the laugh... a bar of soap.

LOVE 2 u ;)

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 08:14:44 (GMT)
From: probono
Email: None
To: Silvina
Subject: Like Jm said: MAHARAJI IS A total MORON
Message:
you guys and gals have a bunch of unsubstantiated rumors and love it....but in my book it is called credulity...lets seperate the wheat from the chaffe here, WHO HAS THE FACTS TO BACK UP ALL THE ACCUSATIONS?.....lets hear some facts, present some factual evidence, since you guys are so set on spreading stuff, who has the real stuff? And I'm not talking about the Jagdeo incident...I agree that Maharaji will have to cop to that at some point....and for the sake of the woman who had to endure it, I hope M does.....my heart goes out to her and her child
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:11:19 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: probono
Subject: Like Jm said: MAHARAJI IS A total MORON
Message:
probone,

In your post you said; ''WHO HAS THE FACTS TO BACK UP ALL THE ACCUSATIONS?.....lets hear some facts, present some factual evidence, since you guys are so set on spreading stuff, who has the real stuff?''. Well I think you will find we have the real stuff. It's called personal memories and experiences we had when we were premies. In a post the other day you said something along the lines that you thought we were victimizing M. But the truth of the matter is; we are the victims here. If you want to see an example of how M damages peoples lives then please read the very moving post by Silvia Sommer below.

So please probono, do not come to this forum and try to add to peoples hurt. There is enough pain and hurt in this world already, without you adding to it.

kev.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:25:53 (GMT)
From: Silvia Sommer
Email: None
To: probono
Subject: Like Jm said: MAHARAJI IS A total MORON
Message:
Here, this is my post taht went inactive.

Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 22:52:21
From: I know more
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: It happened to me
Message:
My first spell of depression came when I went to a city to ask for K. Sulekshna Bai didn't think I was ready and folks, by that time I had become a surrendered devotee, totally believeing he was who he said he was: God encarnated. I got very sick one time in Miami. My then husband and I rented a little apartment behind Dr. Ed's house, maharaji's doctor(I believe he delivered all his children too). Anyway, living there I got severely depressed and even that it sounds weird,I didn't sleep for 2 months and a week. I would ask my husband to help me,to take me to a hospital and he wouldn't. I was told to meditate. I was afraid to go out to the street. I got to a point, I learned later by a diagnosis) I acted like a 7 years old child, but at times I would see that I was sick and that the dillussions I was having were not real, but nobody would help me. All my premies friends disapperead, and Dr. Ed, even that he knew my mental condition never came to see me, no compassion there. Oh, wait, he sent a Valium. What a man! What a good doctor! The oath, you know... Meditate. It will go away. I ask to see maharaji in some point, he lived in Alton road at that times, few blocks away from my home, but he didn't came. It was emotional hell. I was left there alone all day long and terrified of leaving! I was allucinating, I saw things that didn't existed. I smell flowers that were not there. I suffer so, so much. I didn't even had the strenght or the reasoning to realize that I could comitte suicide to stop the suffering. I, I was gone. I tried to kill myself before K? No. I was a happy young person. I was a model in my country and also worked in TV,my contract finished a bit before meeting Lard. What happened to me?
I was so close to dying twice. I have been suicidal many times. can you imagine GOD is in this Earth and you have doubts? You maybe be a BAD person.... One time I overdose and was in a coma for two-three days. I woke up (came out of it)with my ancles and wrists strapped, unable to move, and remained hospitalized for a month and a half. Another time, I waited for a train and when it was coming a lay on the ground. Twenty-eight cars went over my head. It didn't carry me because I was so skinny. My then husband would leave me alone, go to work (very important to him=$$$) with my 2 years old son! (Is that a loving person? Is that consciusness? hell? I know hell. And maharaji has made many minds sick. My ex-husband tried to kill himself 4 times. How is it possible? Yes, both of us have suicides in our families, but like you said, mental/emotional problems were taken as 'just mind-not real' and we were told taht meditation would cure all. Bring your sufferings and I will give you peace; didn't he said that?

One day I left and went to a pay phone and called my family in Argentina and they made arrangements and I ended up in Dunellon, Fl, living for three months in the house of an Argentinian Psychiatrist, Natalio Chudnovsky, who saved my life. Very loving, compassionate person. Too bad he died and never got to see me happy as I'm today. Free. Whole again.

How is it taht I left the cult on November of 99 and i feel better than ever? Yes, cults CAN be dangerous, more when they are lead by a moron like maharaji.

Sorry to hear about what you went through.

My uncle killed himself because his wife left him and he got depressed beyond believe.

sb/Silvia B. Sommer

PS: Please, tell me what you CAN say about that. Lets see how much of a loving being you REALLY are. One thing is to feel especial and other is to truly being IT. Are you, your master? Common. Losers!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:43:49 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: EV France communique re the Versailles' mess
Message:
Here's what you'll find on EV France website:

Ce texte est le communiqué de presse posté sur le site d'élan vital suite aux perturbations du congrès de Versailles

Elan Vital 26 mai 2001 : Communiqué de Presse

La venue annoncée de Maharaji les 26 et 27 mai à Versailles à l'invitation de l'association Elan Vital a donné lieu à des attaques diffamatoires de la part d'une certaine presse écrite et audiovisuelle.

L'association Elan Vital, qui soutient l'enseignement de Maharaji en France, tient à faire la mise au point suivante :

1. Maharaji est un conférencier indépendant qui enseigne une méthode d'épanouissement personnel fondé sur la connaissance de soi. 'Ce que vous cherchez est à l'intérieur de vous', déclare-t-il. La méthode qu’il enseigne n'est ni une religion, ni une pratique mentale ou spirituelle, ni un style de vie, mais un moyen simple et concret de ressentir la satisfaction qui existe déjà en soi.

2. Le congrès de Versailles ' de même que toutes les activités organisées par Elan Vital, association à but non lucratif ' est financé exclusivement par des dons qui ne constituent aucunement une condition d'accès à la conférence.

3. Maharaji ne tire aucun revenu de ses activités de conférencier. L'association Elan Vital couvre uniquement les frais de transport et de séjour concernant les conférences auxquelles il est invité. Maharaji et sa famille disposent de moyens d'existence indépendants.

4. L'enseignement de Maharaji s'adresse à toute personne intéressée. Chacun peut poursuivre cet enseignement le temps qu'il veut, abandonner quand il le souhaite et y revenir à son gré. Maharaji enseigne depuis 1966. Au cours des sept dernières années, 1 300 000 personnes dans le monde ont assisté à l'une de ses conférences.

Celle de Versailles est la première une tournée dans sept pays européens.

Pour plus d'informations : Jean-Paul Bibérian, tél : 06 60 14 04 85

www.elanvital.fr - www.maharaji.org

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:03:29 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 1.300,000 chairs in 7 years=5,000 pwks in west?
Message:
1.300,000/7 (years)= roughly 200,000 / year
When you consider 2 events/year in Delhi, with 50,0000 pwks/year

rests roughly 100,000 westerners / year
equals roughly 10,000 / month pwks coming twice (?) a month .........
5,000 active pwks in West

Just a calculation

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:41:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Here's the Babel Fish translation
Message:
This text is the press release posted on the site of vital dash following the disturbances of the congress of Versailles Vital dash May 26 2001: Press release The announced arrival of Maharaji May the 26 and 27 in Versailles with the invitation of Vital Elan association gave place to defamatory attacks on behalf of a certain newspaper industry and audio-visual. Vital the Elan association, which supports the teaching of Maharaji in France, makes a point of making the following development: 1. Maharaji is an independent lecturer who teaches a method of personal blooming founded on the self-knowledge. ' what you seek is inside vous', declares it. The method qu’il sign is neither a religion, neither a mental or spiritual practice, nor a life style, but a means simple and concrete to feel the satisfaction which already exists in oneself. 2. The congress of Versailles ' just as all the activities organized by Vital Dash, association with nonlucrative goal ' is financed exclusively by gifts which at all do not constitute a condition of access to the conference. 3. Maharaji does not draw any income from its activities of lecturer. Vital Elan association covers only the transport charges and stay concerning the conferences to which it is invited. Maharaji and its family have independent means of existence. 4. The teaching of Maharaji is addressed to any interested person. Each one can continue this teaching time that he wants, to give up when it wishes it and there to return to its liking. Maharaji teaches since 1966. During seven last years, 1 300 000 people in the world attended the one of its conferences. That of Versailles is the first a round in seven European countries. For more information: Jean-Paul Bibérian, Tel.: 06 60 14 04 85 www.elanvital.fr - www.maharaji.org
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:30:27 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thank you J-M, This part I like best:
Message:
Vital Elan association covers only the transport
charges and stay concerning the conferences to which it is invited.

Transportation costs and stays? That means a Gulfstream V, plus the costs of maintaining it, fuel, airport fees, not to forget where he stays...I'm sure it's just a beaten down, hole of a motel room, right?....LOLOLOL

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:14:14 (GMT)
From: bill-more lies from ev
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 1million 300,000 people attended in 7 years-HA!.nt
Message:
sdfhsd
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:54:46 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: bill-more lies from ev
Subject: 1million 300,000 people attended in 7 years-HA!.nt
Message:
The same way they count how many visitors access their web site. Yah sure.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 00:42:14 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: bill-more lies from ev
Subject: Those are the dummies he was refering to
Message:
in Aurora, Illinois! You silly.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:52:58 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: bill-more lies from ev
Subject: 1million 300,000 people attended in 7 years-HA!.nt
Message:
Isn't it amazing - have you ever noticed how meticulously they count heads at every local event and then after doing so on all their web sites - including maharaji's, who by the way is supposed to be God's representative of truth on earth, report numbers as '### people attented events last year' instead of 'we counted '### heads at events last year'. Truth my ass.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:27:09 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Here's the Babel Fish translation
Message:
Jim, Hi

How can M 'proove' that he has independant wealth when he doesn't have a job?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:36:27 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Man of independent means - ha
Message:
The press release fails to mention where all that money came from, doesn't it? That's one of the central fallacies of the EV PR machine. They misrepresent where he got all his money.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:14:44 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Man of independent means - ha
Message:
Where DID he get all his money from ?

From WB. Stores Ltd (UK) , which changed its name in 1988 to ....Elan Vital (UK), has got to be the English branch of the independance foundation .

Charge DLM through the nose to invite the 'speaker' , hey we all thought back in those days he just floated in on a cloud of grace & our donations , but pooft , at a stroke of WB's pen all that raised bread vanishes into thin air.

DLM in debt & Rawat in a mansion in Reigate .

Don't know how it happened Stateside , but does the pope shit in the woods ?

What I'd like to see on here is anyone who knows the ins & outs of all this to start dropping a few hints . Dream on .

Hope you're doing well back in your native air & that the get together on Sat. goes as well as the one in London where we met.

All the best : Pat Dorrity

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:48:13 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Nor does EV open their books.
Message:
If you look at their page about finances at www.elanvital.org, you can see that they don't say anything about who gets the Elan Vital money. Someone has to get the money, right? It doesn't just vanish. The percentages on the finance page seem bogus to me, they turn out to be even fractions, like 1/3. How likely is that?
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:41:38 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Speculation
Message:
I would imagine that Maharaji may have piled away enough of our 'donations' to create a large investment fund, that he has invested in the stock market, real estate, and other businesses. Amtext, which I understand he now owns, was created with slave, cult labor, and later operated for his benefit. Of course, Elan Vital doesn't mention where Maharaji got all this money to invest, in that he has never worked a day in his life.

Next, Maharaji, or family members/PAMS are the owners of the corporation that owns the Gulstream Plan. Elan Vital 'rents' the plane from this corporation for Maharaji's use, for what I would assume is a highly exhorbitant amount. Elan Vital essentially rents a plane from Maharaji, and then lets him use it, and then lies on its website that the plane is rented from a 'separate corporation.'

Then, Elan Vital covers Maharaji's other 'expenses' which could be just about anything, also in the exhorbitant ballpark, and as G says absolutely none of this is disclosed, even though it appears Elan Vital is in violation of California law for not doing so.

Then, of course, Maharaji just had thousands line up to kiss his feet in Australia. That was probably worth a few hundred thou, and then there are all those 'gifts.'

So this bullshit about Maharaji not taking money from Elan Vital or the premies is utter bullshit. In the past, it was just a lot more blatant.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:54:19 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Speculation
Message:
Then, of course, Maharaji just had thousands line up to kiss his feet in Australia. That was probably worth a few hundred thou, and then there are all those 'gifts.'
Yeah, I guess it was just purely his grace that darshan was given at the poorly attended Amaroo program.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:03:02 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Speculation
Message:
Of course for us there is no question where the money went. We have seen all the shells been erected around the greedy bastard. for an outsider this stuff is very boring legal and financial.
many millionaires have financial advisers telling them how to evade taxes. It reminds me of the work the young lawyer had to do in Grisham's 'The Firm'. The mob does this.
The problem for us consists of the press getting parts of information, and not the big picture. It creates hours of research and a boring article for them. I don't know of IRS audits are open to the public, but even then it will take an experienced accountant to interpret this and translate it into something newsworthy.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:14:56 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: More speculation
Message:
'Next, Maharaji, or family members/PAMS are the owners of the corporation that owns the Gulstream Plan.'

I consider the fact the SELCAL for the plane is PREM to be good evidence that he or someone controlled by him owns this corporation. That is assuming that the SELCAL is set by whoever owns the plane.

Based on some corporate info on the web, I think that he also gets money by renting A/V equipment to Dunrite, Vision Intl., etc. Elan Vital probably pays a high rental fee to a Rawat company. He might even get money from renting out part of his Malibu marble mansion.

There are also these 'conference management' companies from which he (most likely) gets EV money.

Rawat stretches the truth beyond the breaking point when he says he doesn't get money from Elan Vital.

If this were thoroughly investigated, I'm certain that transactions would be found that are not at 'arm's length' (i.e. reasonable/customary fees).

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:24:43 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: G
Subject: More speculation
Message:
Not debating the main points, just nitpicking the details.

1 of the things I do to make a living is help wealthy folks set up offshore businesses and trusts to legally AVOID, not illegally EVADE taxes.

And if the only things he takes personal ownership of are the gifts, with everything else going to entities he either controls directly or to entities under the control of those he can trust, why, he'd have no need to take money from EV or the premies (other than their gifts). Why have EV give you ownership of cash to gas your car up with when they could give you a EV gas credit card, as an example. The trick is the same in tax avoidance; you want to control but not own your cash and assets.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:50:09 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Vital Dash'? 'Personal Blooming?' Excellent!
Message:
Funniest damn thing I've read all week. Actually ,makes more sense than anything I've read on the English site!

good one Jim

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:27:23 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: JM - another odd bit of translation
Message:
JM,

In your interview with L'Humanite, you said: 'loin des yeux, loin du cour...' which I took to mean something like the English phrase 'out of sight, out of mind.' I assumed that the word 'cour' in this saying is an older version of 'le coeur'. But the automatic translator came up with 'far eyes, far courtyard,' which is rather baffling.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:25:03 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Yes: heart=coeur
Message:
ccc
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:40:39 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Could you translate por favor? st
Message:
sans text
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:05:49 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV France communique re the Versailles' mess
Message:
Don't you love the way they say that 1,300,000 people have attended his events when in fact 1,300,000 chairs were filled. Words mean whatever they want them to mean. Mean.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:08:45 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: India counts for this
Message:
In 72 I was at hans yajanti in Delhi. It is hard to guess large crowds, but it could easily have been 200,000 (their own count was 3 million). multiply this by 7 years and you are already over the count.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 14:58:47 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Bob
Subject: I Think You're Supporting My Point
Message:
My point is that counting heads at events makes it seem as though numbers are taken seriously. Then to say that a certain number of people attended events is meaningless because the same person may have attended 25 events in one year. If they can't even take a very simple thing like numbers seriously then what is believable from those people. Probably zilch.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:25:24 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: TO SILLY MILLI vanili
Message:
respond my post from bellow please, I brought it here.

Yours:

Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 01:10:02
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: And furthermore Mili !!
Message:
You're weird, man.
I just don't get you, no matter how hard I try. No malice intended, really.

Mine to respond to 'that'.:0

Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 05:40:02
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Yes, malice
Message:
to yourself. You kiss the hand that jailed you. You don't come across as a loving person.
Do you love everybody? If you don't you don't know what REAL love is.

YOU ARE WEIRD. Jump to the other side. There is TRUE freedom and you wont find it around rawat. Rawat is not responsible/giver of ANY of your experiences. Whatever they are, THEY ARE YOURS. YOUR EFFORT. YOUR SEARCH of the real YOU.

love u 2 my friend,

silvia

PS: You wrote the stuff I've been writing about what happened to me, and you called me NOW, me today, CRAZY? Fuck you again!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:36:45 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Sorry SB
Message:
.. but there just ain't no word that describes it better than that.

Now why don't you go take a cold shower, take a walk, drink some camomilli tea or something like that, OK?

You'll be just fine. ;o)

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:28:06 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili.enium, could you provide a link to
Message:
your web site?
My oldest changed the computer from windows 2000 to 98 and he wiped out everything i had as far as links go, I didnt have much in the way of files on the computer, luckily.

So I lost your link and also a few of those that you provided over the years.
How is your Mata Ji?
And your Aunt? Hope they are well. And has Croatia gotten back to normal now that the serbs are busy elsewhere?
Do you need some software for your computer?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:32:11 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Mili.enium, could you provide a link to
Message:
Sure Bill. Try typing in http://www.geocities.com/milivoi

We are all healthy, safe and sound here. Also enjoying the satellite broadcasts immensely. Life is pretty much the same as everywhere else - you got to struggle to pay the bills. (sorry, no pun intended!)

I was working on a huge project for Microsoft for the past six months - localizing the new MS Office 2000 into the Croatian language. You know, Word, Excel and Outlook with menus and Help in Croatian. Heavy stuff. So much work you wouldn't believe and tight schedules to keep. It's pretty much over by now, and I am looking forward to spending the summer on the Adriatic again.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 11:33:33 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Hey! FRAUDSTER!! Do your employers know ...
Message:

... WOULD YOU LIKE 'EM TO ?


'bye, then.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:40:06 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Hey Monkey-Boy--yea you!
Message:
Don't think you're invinciple or invisible because you're not!

Why are you here? It's a rhetorical question, really. We know why you're here, but do you?

You're like a ostrich with his head in the ground (except you-yours is up your ass)--You studpidly think because you won't look - that you're invisible.

Here's a nice big kick in your cyber gonads. OW!! Did that hurt?
Don't piss Me or anybody elso off Monkey Boy--I'll march down the next fuckin DARSHAN line to drop kick your ass. Don't forget Monkey Boy, we know where to find you!

Play nice, be a good little premie.

Hey is it true Maharaji's requesting Blow Jobs from his premies this Day. Pucker up MonkeyBoy.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:17:09 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: You sure sound like you could give some pointers..
Message:
Don't you now?

(snicker, snicker)

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 21:18:41 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: and you wish: I saw you: You are UGLY all over.
Message:
How old did you say you're? He ment to say young at heart, not to act or think stupid...well, he did that too. Sorry. I can try and try to score one for chachashitgreedy but I can't. What did he do, really? If only one person dies because of his moronic mind that is one tooo many for me!

Get lost, leech.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:23:24 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: You are so profound for a Monkey Boy (NT)
Message:
fuck you!
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:21:41 (GMT)
From: S
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: You are so profound for a Monkey Boy LOL
Message:
ROFL!!!!

silvia :)))))

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:02:03 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: As much as I like spirited exchanges...
Message:
and dislike what Mili says and as much as I am enjoying your posts Deborah, I might as well tell you this: threats are the one thing that will get you in trouble here, and you are getting kinda close. Now I know you are just kidding, and I know your emotions on this are strong and clean, and I thought I'd mention Rule 291.54 Section(b) which states, no matter how much of a pain in the ass any particular premie is, physical threats are verboten, as they could get us all in trouble.

Thought you should know.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:25:49 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: As much as I like spirited exchanges...
Message:
You're right, I know. Thought I'd rattle his cage, that's all!
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:29:54 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Nomination for best typo of the week: studpidly
Message:
As in Deb would like to kick him in his ''studpidly'' gonads.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:01:10 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Is this the same Mili who...
Message:
1) tried to shut down our newsgroup by telling Usenet you had the support of a whole bunch of people when, in truth, you'd just grabbed a bunch of names from all the people who'd ever posted on Harlan's page, even when it turned out that all sorts of exes were amongst them? Usenet told you to fuck off for being such a slimeball too, didn't they? Or something to that effect, no?

2) threaten to punch out the 'original' David if you ever saw him outside a program afe yeras ago, didn't you? I mean, that wasn't some other Mili, was it? You know, with all these aliases and people just using first names and stuff, I could be mistaken. What's your recollection of that incident? I seem to recall a big discussion and how that confirmed -- possibly even spawned -- the 'no threats' policy here. Wasn't it something like that?

3) told some woman here who posted about being sexually abused in the cult that she must be a liar and is probably an old, fat hag anyway, or, again, something like that?
4) tried to shut down the only discussion that ever really started on yours and Harlan's page, the discussion where one premie started talking about Maharaji as the Lord and the other premie took issue with that. You DID tell them that debates of that nature weren't allowed on your forum, didn't you?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:55:46 (GMT)
From: Silvia B.Sommer
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: I wont be just fine, later, I'M FINE NOW
Message:
and I can voice my opinion. My head is saner than you, I ssure you. I was were you are today and know the difference: You don't. You have been a cult member for too long and you don't even remember who you REALLY are: A human being. But if you continue insulting people's real pain, I will 'campaign' to get you out of here. You ignorant asspeehole!

YOU'RE EMOTIONALLY DEAD, thanks to your master, you dog.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:43:32 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Sorry for your FRAUD, Mili?
Message:
Mili is a liar and FRAUDSTER.

Reminds me of some psycho creep.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:48:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: No use trying to talk with him, John
Message:
John,

He is indeed guilty of everything Gerry mentioned (indeed, I think Gerry's just reposting my own words from the last time Mili popped up like a bad rash). But he doesn't have the guts or brains to talk about any of it. He can no more honestly discuss his own words or actions than he can his master's. He's pretty much a lost case, in that respect.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:57:51 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No use trying to talk with him, John
Message:
Yes, they are your words indeed, Jim. I have them stored on my hard drive as 'The Mili Clammer.'

He tried to weasel by saying the post was inaccurate like the rest of our information and taken out of context. Which is, of course, bullshit.

I have given you attribution in the past and will do so in the future if you like.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:56:20 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: you're right! NT
Message:
n
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:08:05 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: o.k, then can we have a search thingy?I think it w
Message:
would help find threads on topics, be easier fo new people to get information...is that possible?

I appreciate your work by the way!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:23:23 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Use Sir Dave's Search Engine
Message:
Sir Dave's Search Engine
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:07:26 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: thanks,,didn'tknowhehadone!nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:31:49 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Everyone esp. Deborah
Subject: Help coming to terms with it...freedomofmind.com
Message:
is a site about cults, how to recognise them, and doing the checklists there was very revealing to me about what I'd got into and how I'd been kept there so long. We're not alone, and there are others who can help you if you need it - there are lots of cults, and lots of people get involved because they operate in a devious way and we were all trusting and sincere seekers of truth, love and enlightenment. When m said tha's what he had to give,we believed him. Now we know better.

Sorry I can't embed the address, I think it's cos I use AOL which doesn't seem to do anything much except try and sell you things.

All the best (Deborah, tears are nature's way of washing away the hurt, soon you'll start feeling all shiny and new, more energy, able to think straight and appreciate how lucky you've been to get out!)

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:36:59 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Help coming to terms with it...freedomofmind.com
Message:
Hi Jani,

The address for the site you mentioned in your post is http://www.factnet.org I've just been there and had a quick look. You are right it does look like a good site (we are not alone). Will read more of it when I have the time.

BTW I loved your little bit at the end of your post about how tears are nature's way of washing away the hurt, soon you'll start feeling all shiny and new, more energy, able to think straight and appreciate how lucky you've been to get out.

Very good and true words.

Love kev.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 11:55:48 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ashram dreams and note to new exes
Message:
It's four something in the morning and I just woke up from a long intense dream.

In the dream, my current husband and I were applying to get into an ashram. It wasn't Maharaji's ashram system. It was some kind of monastic order at a hot springs where we often go (which doesn't really have a monastic order). In the dream, they were just opening up a couplle's section of the ashram, and we thought we might enter it. Then we had our interviews and realized the lack of freedom involved and changed our minds.

Back in the eighties, my then-husbband John and I lived in various semi-ashrams together (having previously lived in ordinary ashrams separately before the first closures). These places were hotels where ashram premies and a few couples lived. As full-time service-doers we straddled the line - able to sometimes go the the ashram meetings with Maharaji, and then subjected to guilt and shame because we weren't 'really' devoted. This was very stressful for me.

Anyway, when I woke up, I remembered - for the first time in 30 years perhaps - how much I LOVED ashram life in the early days (around 1972). I was a true monastic for a while back then. I really gave up everything - absolutely everything - and although it was intense, a very deep part of me wanted to do that for some reason. This had nothing to do with Maharaji and much to do with my own strange unfoldment at that time. I have to say that if it hadn't been him, it would probably have been some other spiritual group (although at the time I despised all of them). It was LATER that the rot set in for me. After a few years in the ashram, as I got closer to MJ's circle, I started to suffer intensely (at IHQ). And then when he closed and reopened the ashrams and applied major intimidation and manipulation, I practically split in two (being happily married by then).

I think the best way for me to support this site and people wanting to exit is to be as accurate as possible in my offering, rather than just taking a 'whatever it is, I'm against it' stance and accumulating endless evidence for how right I am. The main thing that many people are negotiating as they try to leave is the non-black-and-whiteness of their experience. Sometimes they might get the impression that they can only be an 'ex' if they say it was all negative, and then any positive feelings or memories cause terrible turmoil and throw them into this either/or seizure which is not healthy cult recovery IMO. So I'm wanting to own and tell the truth about my part in getting into DLM and the whole thing. There was some monastic passion in me that got some needs met in the whole trip. There was also an idealistic save-the-world passion, which was different. I had some great times. At the time they felt like the greatest possible experiences but in retrospect they were the intensity of massive denial creating exaggerated sensations of grandiose 'spiritual' experience. Nonetheless, I was exploring something that I wanted to explore. I don't know if this is true for anyone or everyone else, but it is true for me.

The unfortunate part of the whole thing was that I really had no idea what a spider's web of soul-possession I was getting into, and it took me years to unravel. Well, apparently from my dream, I'm still unravelling pieces of it.

So if you're currently flirting with leaving the whole trip, but you can't quite get around the notion that your whole experience for the last few decades has been a sham, it probably hasn't. MJ is a sham as a real spiritual leader, but you aren't a sham as a sincere person, and a spiritual being, and you have probably had wonderful experiences in your sincerity and desire for peace and love or whatever else. Even your positive feelings for MJ, past or present, are no reason to stay involved in his web. You don't have to deny your love for someone to divorce them or end the relationship because you realize they are unhealthy for you.

Sweet dreams,

love Katie Darling

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 23:40:48 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Ashram dreams and note to new exes
Message:
Good post Katie. There is indeed a uniformly dark side of the moon to the proceedings that is easy to just fall into and is fun and expurgating but doesn't necessarily deal with the broad range of emotions of exiting from m. I liked Carl's post below in this regard. We're all coming from different places as individuals and to some extent in regards to our take on m&k but I think it's fair to say that most of us feel a deep sense of betrayal and abandonment by him. Reconciling my hurt with my positive experiences is an ongoing process for me. It's difficult to second-guess my experiences now knowing that some of them were so deeply felt and at times transcendent. Pat's catch-all phrase of bhakti-juju is helpful, but I must admit, I still wonder. So many years of faithfully practicing, so many years of being blissed out in his presence, vis-a-vis the poor direction and advice he gave to me personally, the revelations about m's persona exposed here on EPO and the revisionism and political machinations of EV. Oh, lardy, lordy.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:36:38 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: years of being blissed out in his presence.....
Message:
Well, Gary, I think you have to second guess your 'experiences' no matter how memorable. It doesn't mean you didn't have them, it's what significance to assign to them.

You can't re-run your life to see if you would have had those experiences anyway, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you would have. The point is, where do you think those experiences came from?

I found that when I believed in Maharaji, or at least if I really wanted to believe in Maharaji, I had some 'experiences' that were pretty good, in his presence, although I was also in the presence of many many premies, which was certainly significant. But when I stopped believing in him, even though I was with lots of premies who still did, and even though I was in his presence, there was absolutely zippo, and Maharaji turned from being THE LORD, to being this rather odd, fat man, who was obviously a megalomaniac and not too smart.

The profound experiences I had, I had from my own belief.

And by the way, I had some of the same ones believing in Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church when I was younger. That came from the power of my faith and belief as well.

I disagree that 'knowledge' does anything for people in and of itself, except perhaps as a relaxation technique. But if you BELIEVE and HAVE FAITH that it's really doing something, it's possible, although still very uncommon, to have a 'profound' experience.

That's why aspirants have to be indoctrinated for at least or 6 months before they are even given knowledge. You have to believe in it really badly, and believe Maharaji has some connection to it or none of it 'works,' and even then, it hardly ever does.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:12:35 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: working it out
Message:
Yes, orientation has everything to do with the experience. But, I wasn't into critical thinking back then - I hadn't had a reason for it yet and therefore left myself wide open. You might say I look back at these experiences very fondly, like Kate was talking about in her post. So this is part of the process for me, to not try and deny those experiences but try to understand them in the context of everything I'm learning. Thanks for your input.
Gary
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:28:43 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Joe's thoughts mirror some of my own
Message:
....from my walk home from the train tonight.

We experience things, and we label them and thus limit them with our ideas and concepts. I remember thinking that people were in love with me because I was so in 'love' with them. Then later on, either I didn't care any more, or they were jerks, or whatever. But what about that feeling? And if you peel the feeling back, past the descriptions and the emotions that you can label, what then?

So one day it's Jesus, one day it's some nice guy, or some jerk, or even a deep friendship with no romance involved. Then you don't feel the same. Does that negate the feeling? Then it's Maharaji, then it's whomever or whatever. The mountains, the ocean, the river, the sky.

It's more like dropping the masks, the convenience or the labels. We want to understand so badly at times, at least I do. But I see that on the extreme end of that you get folks like born-again Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, chosen people of one stripe or another. They have it all figured out alright.

Keep working at it. I enjoy your posts.

Love, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 06:34:21 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Joe's thoughts mirror some of my own
Message:
Nice to hear from you, I enjoy your posts as well. I guess in this particular thread I am allowing myself to acknowledge a certain amount of 'cognitive dissonance' regarding experiences I've had with miragey. Joe (above) seems to be suggesting that I proactively or is that retroactively understand these experiences and bring them in line with my current thinking, then perhaps I wouldn't look back at them so fondly.

Yes, I acknowledge being 'blissed out' at miragey programs and I enjoyed that. Does the fact that these experiences were likely a combination of my own projected concepts, desires, and group mind-think mean that I should dis-own them? Did they really exist? Good questions, and ones which properly 'answered' would assist me in the process of healing.

Joe goes on to suggest in parallel that the experiences derived from the meditation techniques is a similar type fabrication. Hmmm. While I've let go of m and probably should fully understand that my fond experiences at programs were part of a mumbo-jumbo-voodoo-gumbo, I will not let that process interfere with my connecting independently with the force/power/hormonal widget within. I mean, if my experiences of communing are a bogus piece of self-delusion, well, didn't someone say that ignorance is bliss. Listen, even when I was stoned on acid I knew that there was an incredible benevolence and not letting go to it was gonna result in a bad trip.

Anyways, as PatC says below, it ain't the techniques. Miragey does not own the patent, nor does it happen by his grace. Hey, let's have fun.
Love ya back, Gary

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:05:18 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: The experiences themselves were real
Message:
Gary:

I think that the experiences themselves, in their bare form, without concepts or ideas or attributions thrown on them ARE real. So I can get disillusioned with the person or thing I thought was the catalyst, but that doesn't negate the experience. I hope you do look on the experiences fondly.

I always used to say that even if I found out M was a fraud, my experiences in meditation were real. I found that to be true for me. Stripped of all the layers of attribution to a god, or M's grace, or M's love -- they still were/are. It's a subject/object perception that throws us off. The juju and the trappings seem quite childish and silly now, but that doesn't make the core experience a lie.

When you were a child, there was probably a little toy, or a person, or an animal or something-or-other that would practically make you leap out of your skin with joy. Just because you wouldn't have that reaction as an adult doesn't make that delight you felt at that moment any less real. And as an adult, other things may 'ring your chimes.' I can see a sunset or feel the breeze sometimes and it is really profound. Other times, so what, I'm preoccupied. It's all a matter of perception.

We get passionate about thing -- music, hobbies, sports, whatever. If we lose interest, the passion hasn't gone anywhere. It's still in there, and will be tapped by something else unless we're comatose. For me, as maybe for you, meditation is a way to tap into an experience using whatever techniques I happen to be using. For someone to say that meditating is useless is silly, in my book. If it has some benefit, if you like it, why NOT do it??? Everything's useless, if you look at it that way. Why go sailing, why play guitar? There's an experience, otherwise you wouldn't do it for long. With meditation we had a cult or religion placing an importance on it that wasn't personal -- it was dogma. But ego and self-aggrandizement can make you play a mean guitar, too. Or you can play it for the sheer joy of playing.

Everything is experienced within me, which is the only receiver I've been given to tune into the song of life. Myself. But no matter what label I put on the experience, it does not negate the experience because the person-thing-religion that was a catalyst to bringing it on is no longer revered, cherished or 'loved.' The confusion always comes because on the gross material level we live in a dualistic world, a world of self and other, of atoms swirling around nuceii that appear to be solid mass, and although some religions also make that seem like a problem, I don't think so. It's just what is.

Some people on this forum never wanted to meditate anyway, and resent the years they spent on a cushion. I can't blame them, but they can't tell me, or you, or Pat, or Chuck or anyone who meditates that we're silly. Different strokes for different folks.

Love again, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:03:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: But Francesca, what does 'real' mean?
Message:
I think that the experiences themselves, in their bare form, without concepts or ideas or attributions thrown on them ARE real. So I can get disillusioned with the person or thing I thought was the catalyst, but that doesn't negate the experience. I hope you do look on the experiences fondly.

This can't be the end of the discussion, can it? What does 'real' mean? The so-called 'experiences' were some part sensorily or brain-induced, some part emotional reaction and a large part running internal commentary. Together they made that stew premies are trained to call 'experience' -- something supposedly pure and bereft of thought or conditioning. But we know differently now, don't we?

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:07:09 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A feeling is a feeling is a feeling
Message:
One feeling or experience, at core, is as real as any other. It gets like the layers of the onion though. For example, when someone cuts you off in traffic, there's a moment of bare congition, before the ideas 'he cut me off,' or '@#$%$!!!!' arise in the mind. That's the core feeling or bare feeling I'm taking about.

You said: the so-called 'experiences' were some part sensorily or brain-induced, some part emotional reaction and a large part running internal commentary

If you peel back the bullshit there's something there that has nothing to do with the Maha. If we somehow conjured up bliss and joy, they weren't fake. They were inside us somewhere. Along with, of course, the drama queen/king/bhakti histrionics and all the childish philosophies, as you so aptly described. I can agree that those had 'some part,' even a large part, and were the outer manifestation or catalyst for the experience.

After awhile, it's like Pavlov's dog. You see the idiot, you feel bliss. For a while, it happens even when you go back just to see what the hell you ever went for in the first place. Due to the conditioning, I call it some kind of connection or grace. It gets harder and harder to do, of course, and then when you're honest, you see there was more straining and pushing oneself to 'feel' something than anything arising naturally of its own accord. However, due to conditioning, it's bound to arise again. Until you bust free of the conditioning.

That's how I see it today, at least.

best wishes, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 16:48:25 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Good Post
Message:
Well put Francesca, I agree. Haven't got any time for more posting 'cuz I'm leaving in an hour to play out of town for the weekend. Enjoy yourself at the Pigeon Fanciers Ball this weekend, sorry I can't be there. Give Pat a big hug fer me.
Love, Gary
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:56:33 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: The monastic life .
Message:

I never lived in an ashram . Although I very much wanted to I was torn between love of my family & love of the infinite , & love of my family won . At the time that seemed like a poor bargain but now I know it wasn't .

In 1972 Rawat was a puzzling cipher , I couldn't deny to myself his divinity & at the same time didn't like him .

I now realise that these conflicts fucked my head up in a major way for many years .

It's like those jokes ..what do you get if you cross an x with a y ?

What do you get if you cross a rationalist with a superstitionalist ? ....me ...a smug bastard for a long time .

One leg on terra firma & the other in the marsh , keeping a consistent persona is tricky .

The beauty of the monastic life & its attraction for certain people is the possibility of total freedom ; you get into the inner life whilst the outer is taken care of for you .

Like everything that Rawat has dabbled in , his ashram policy was a crock of shite , I don't know much about eastern monasticism but don't suppose it's too different from western.

It's not to my taste , but reading the Rule of Benedict , 1500 yrs since , & contrasting the psychological insights there as to how you stop abbots/abbesses (yes , equality of the sexes at the fall of the Roman Empire) from fucking over the peons , with Rawat's methods ....you've got to weep really.

Truly this guy has fucked with things he doesn't understand & will reap the consequences .

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:32:42 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: There are two kinds of people in this world . . .
Message:
Your post was great, and thoughtfully balanced. Thank you!

Your post reminded me of a saying, sort of koan-like, which helps me keep many situations in perspective:

'There are two kinds of people in this world: Those who divide the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't.'

This is for ex's and non-ex's:

There's a natural and unfortunate tendency to demonize people with whom we may have profound philosophical differences. The old us/them. At the same time we are encouraged to find our universality, our common ground shared with all beings.

The human spirit has a built-in courage and resiliency, for most folks anyway, so that even when a once-idealistic and energized 'spiritual/social' movement starts to slowly harden and get weird, genuine people will still try to feel and identify with the original good they found in it.

It's when the energy and enthusiasm start to wane, all that remains are 'directives' and programmed responses and all manner of secondary objectives. (This is not unique with DLM/EV . . . any organization can suffer from this.)

That's where we all get torn. It's natural to want to flee a rigid scene like that when the natural inclination is to be balanced in a loving understanding. This is also a kind of courage, to break out of the rigid shell.

It's just that this EV outfit has in M a fearful, controlling leader, so it seems, who cannot bear to acknowledge the degree of falsity and pretense that's perpetuated and harangued about, and is also subtly reinforced. Why should 'Enjoying Life' be SO complicated, with sooooo many strings attached?

Which is doubly sad, because the K, the meditation itself, regardless which techniques or their order, has brought loving understanding, some kind of peace, to many, perhaps most of us, at one time or another. Whether it is 'God' or not doesn't really matter. As a term, if so, fine, if not, fine. It is in any case an effective centering mechanism, and helps contribute to a balanced life, IMO. And it can open up to awesome inner regions.

How not to throw the baby out with the bath water?

I respect the K, through whatever channel, thread, lineage or tradition it has come to me, and yet reject the utter nonsense, mythmaking, pretense and abuses of position by M and PAM that have also developed to 'support' it.

We are individuals, and will seek our individual balance and response to the best available information. The informaition and exchanges on this Forum really help the adjustment process.

The term 'ex'premie is very much an us/them construct, unfortunately, and doesn't appear to permit much nuance. But this Forum thrives because it is a freewheeling and on-going investigation into some rather heady ideas, experiences, claims and shenanigans. It is more satsang-like, or Socratic, than piles of pretty new age platitudes or poetry or whatever passes for discourse these days.

The important part is to keep open to all available information, and to use intuition AND intellect to help discriminate. Nostalgic emotion just doesn't do the whole job, not by a long shot.

And we are quite a spectrum, from people just now wondering if M and EV are maybe just a little bit odd, to earnest-seekers-of-truth-whereever-it-may-lead, to highminded, lowminded, saints and hedonists, healers, atheists and clowns both cheerful and pissed-off, maybe all of the above at once.

And that is just fine.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:55:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: I really don't understand you guys
Message:
I respect the K, through whatever channel, thread, lineage or tradition it has come to me, and yet reject the utter nonsense, mythmaking, pretense and abuses of position by M and PAM that have also developed to 'support' it.

So many of you guys think like this. K is still embued with all sorts of special importance. It's just Maharaji that's debunked. To me, it only makes sense that, as long as I think K has any magical, spiritual or divine attributes, it's impossible to exclude Maharaji as one who might have them as well. Fortunately, I don't have that problem. K is bunk. It's pre-scientific, religious hokum and yeah, I'm an 'ex' to all that. 'Ex-premie' is a wonderful concept and I have no problem finding a very strong, black line between what I think and what premies do. They're in a cult; I'm not.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:02:11 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Jim / everyone
Subject: Welcome back Jim. Nice to hear your views again ..
Message:
Are we now in a cult of ex's? We do seem to absorb ourselves in these discussions, whether as posters or monitor/lurkers.

Everyone can decide for themselves what benefits them and what doesn't. And that can change over time, with reflection, study, experience, and so forth. That appears to be what is going on here, on this Forum and in life.

We are complex creatures, and we grapple with life issues big and small. 'Spiritual' concerns are a big deal, for most people at least at some points in their lives. I don't know about you, but meditation has benefitted me, of this I am quite clear. But I need convince no one else of that.

For me, it is quite simple to separate K from M because when I look into my heart of hearts, as intimately as I can, the contemplative 'presence' vibrates from where K has taken me. And I have not had anything to do with M since 1974 or 75.

Would I have been just as 'benefitted' by chanting a mantra, or practicing something from another tradition? I don't know. Perhaps.

Would I have been just as benefitted by having done nothing at all, no 'spiritual discipline' whatsoever? I doubt it. Life would have been different for sure. Better? Worse? Who can say.

We are all individuals, adults a long time, free to make choices and form priorities. And we learn by making mistakes in our choices, and then correcting our course, getting up and going forward. Hopefully with some sense of humor.

I expect the learning curve to be quite different for everyone. Some areas of study seem like bunk at one point, then very compelling at other points in life, then put on the back shelf, then brought forward again.

Perhaps there are 'pre-scientific' states of being, of human potential, that aren't hokum but rather wellsprings of wisdom, creativity and intuition that give illumination to the intellect. The M/EV world seems to have demonized intellect, frightened of it, as a threat. Pity.

I think the Forum here is, among other purposes, about reclaiming the intellect about 'spiritual matters', in a much healthier balance. But that is not to deny the reality and value of love, character, personality, and other pre-scientific, pre-verbal human components and experiences. We are multi-multi-multi dimensional beings.

There is certainly a variety of outlook. The frequent debates are refreshing compared to the M/EV culture of denial, dogma and directives. No one really has the final say. Aren't we all, ultimately, winging it? Doing the best we can.

Best wishes to you and everyone.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:34:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Thanks for reminding me, Carl. We're all individu
Message:
als, right? I've got to write that down somewhere so I don't forget it again.

No, you're absolutely right. It's all a warm, open mystery and only a cultist of one kind or another would think otherwise. So now I'm for inclusiveness. Anything from anywhere, anytime ... why not? Is that better?

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 11:56:36 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Inclusiveness -- I don't see how it could hurt.
Message:
One doesn't want to be jack-booted, nor sweetly conned, into a party line.

Haven't we all had plenty enough of egomaniacs trying to bully us into kow-towing to their oh-so-enlightened points of view?

I refer not only historically (with popes, Stalins, wacko gurus, etc.) but to those in our daily lives.

Open discussion, wherever it might lead, from whomever, and avoiding gratuitous nastiness, could only help us help each other, in my opinion.

And I am assuming that helping and curiosity for learning are main motivations for the considerable time people hang on this site.

It's a much different approach than that of M/EV. I have no problem with premies posting here, if they are willing to deal with the main issues so thoroughly presented elsewhere on the site.

What do you think?

Best,
C.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:05:36 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not getting the same point as you
Message:
Jim,

I am getting a different message from this thread. What I was getting out of it, and maybe I'm wrong is that many of us do have cherish-worthy experiences and relationships worth keeping 9at least in relative perspective). Personally, I threw out K and all it's techniques, not all at one time, I admit. I found new and meaningful messages from other sources. But with one Striking Blow to my consciousness I am finding a need to be here. In order to trust healthily and wholeheartedly we have to separate the Wheat from the Chaff.

I notice some people value K. but I don't notice anyone REAL posters (not the miligetalifes) have changed the water and thrown out the BIG FAT BABY on its head.

Your feedback? Deb

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:03:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: What 'worthy experiences'?
Message:
I'm the first one to admit that it's fun to enjoy my past in the cult, either by analyzing, criticising, having fun with or just simply casting my mind back to yesteryear. I've always said that. But that's not the same as thinking there's any particular value to whatever we did there. I mean, you could have spent all those years chanting Hare Krishna as far as I'm concerned. That's just as valuable as 'Knowledge'.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 20:58:09 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Good post Carl..........(nt)
Message:
gut
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:55:15 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Good posts Carl and Gary - thank you
Message:
I too had good times with M and K but now very much take issue with using the word ''Knowledge'' (eventhough I will resort to it as shorthand when beginning a discussion with a premie.)

None of us know what anyone else experienced other than that it was nice but what is nice for one guy is not necessarily the same for another. My involvement with M and K definitely showed me that I did not need drugs to get high - but what I mean by high may not be the same as what you mean.

Rev Pimple Rawat's big con is making the premies think that they are experiencing some sort of uniform universal cosmic truth and, even worse, that it comes from him. The fact that he no longer says that his ''Knowledge is God'' but refers to it as ''Knowledge of Self'' is still deceptive and nonsense because he is still cloaking it with mystery and still implying that it is a universal truth.

Why did the techs work for some and not others? Because they are not essential. What is essential is aiming for and achieving what one wants and how that is obtained really is not important.

What I learnt from my years with M and K is that I am the master of my own subjective happiness and that all of it came from either my own efforts at meditation or because of my love for him. Not, premies please note, HIS love for me (he didn't even know I was alive) but MY love for him.

The techs by themselves are actually useless and even dangerous if people think that they are a substitute for rational thought and attaining and maintaining mental health. Bliss without a foundation of rationalism and equanimity is ephemeral at best and infantilising at worse.

Now, I prefer to direct my love to my fellow humans, especially the good and kind and wise, as well as all the other beautiful creatures on earth rather than him. And soul-stirring music does more for me than his darshan ever did.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:08:04 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Here here, Pat, well said. (nt)
Message:
yowza
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:20:53 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Good Topic of Discussion
Message:
Hi Katie...I used to go to Satsang at your home...Was it Norton Towers--hey Norton! or some name like that.

As I have relayed in previous passages I, too, have fond memories of my premiehood. I did learn a lot. I acquired spiritual truths via Satsang. I revelled in Service, I loved service. I aspired to be in the ashram but M was doing the new and improved 80's spin-doctor home improvement and alas! where was my natural penchant for celibacy going to go.

However!!!I have read a lot of spiritual and new/old age stuff that I had to throw out over the years but I can't just throw out Maharaji crap because I'm throwing up the belief systems he cleverly shoved into us. A lot of communication M did was covert. But it's real. I thought I had just quietly moved on, till last week. No, this is important stuff we doing here, Katie. My physical and emotional reactions are telling me that there is damaging influences in my unconscious that have to be released. The dry heeves of cult detoxication are very real indeed. I don't have that experience with the Spiritual concepts I throw out of my closet now and then. Thank you for having the courage to voice this thought. It's provocative.

And Katie, I don't to throw out the good times and subsequent growth, I don't want to have a meaningless void in my life, either. We're learning how to heal those wounds. We stood up for the truth in the 70's -- brave souls who went out on a limb for a genuine purpose, to light the path for others. And now, again, with the same brave souls, we go out on a limb (cyber limb) to show the light for those on the path behind us. Don't you find that ironic, in a beautiful way. In a way, it's an honour.

Take care, you're life is meaningful to all of us.

Cheers!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:53:43 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Black and White 'ism'
Message:
Disculta,

I agree with what you are saying, except I don't pick up the idea that one has to be entirely negative about everything that happened while a premie in order to reject it completely. I think when people first leave, it's hard to see anything positive about any of it, because the positive parts are so extremely outweighed by the enormity of the rip-off, the waste of years, the waste of talents, the destruction of sincerity and idealism. But I don't think I've ever heard any ex-premie say everything was a complete waste. There were fun and maybe even fulfilling times. There were great people and friendships made, but, really, you could say that about any experience, including prison.

There was some monastic passion in me that got some needs met in the whole trip. There was also an idealistic save-the-world passion, which was different. I had some great times.

I related to the monastic part as well, and I was heavily into the save-the-world passion. But when those sincere, and some would say positive passions are directed towards something that is essentially false, and not only false but deceptive and delusional, then those sincerities and passions get squashed, the pain and damage is much deeper that simple, superficial deception, and the rapair process is the rest of your life.

So, in that context, it's very hard to see that as a positive thing. In insolation maybe you could say it was a positive thing for you, in the beginning in the ashram, and the whole save the world Millennium period was exciting and fun, but it wasn't real, Disculta, because it was based on fasilty. That's why it's so much more painful later when you realize that. It's not as if YOU decided the monastic life wasn't for you, and maybe saving the world wasn't either and you left it. No, you just discovered it wasn't real, and you suffered a lot of pain trying to make it real, like when you were torn apart because you were married, all because Maharaji was not only lying to us, he didn't really give a shit what happened to us. Yet we were dedicated to him.

If you look at it in the context of the whole picture, it's hard to see much positive.

Joe

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:12:38 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Black and White 'ism'
Message:
Joe: I get your point. The very sincerity and perhaps positivity of my passion for world-saving and monastic life (even if temporary) did set me up for more confusion and betrayal. It's an edgy thing for me to tread the fine, meandering line between facing and naming what happened that was wounding to me, and seeing it all as negative. I have a feeling that you and I will talk this one through in person some time - I've been a bit out of commission but look forward to seeing you on Saturday. love kt
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:31:52 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Disculta - your last paragraph
Message:
is great - and I'm reposting it here for those who don't read long posts :).

So if you're currently flirting with leaving the whole trip, the notion that your whole experience for the last few decades has been a sham, it probably hasn't. MJ is a sham as a real spiritual leader, but you aren't a sham as a sincere person, and a spiritual being, and you have probably had wonderful experiences in your sincerity and desire for peace and love or whatever else. Even your positive feelings for MJ, past or present, are no reason to stay involved in his web. You don't have to deny your love for someone to divorce them or end the
relationship because you realize they are unhealthy for you.

Very well expressed - I would probably say something more along the lines of 'you don't have to believe that it all sucked to become an ex-premie' :)!

Thanks and
Love to you, Katie D -
Katie H.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:56:07 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Ashram dreams and note to new exes
Message:
Katie, nicely put. As an early 70s ashram resident I agree that there were fun times. Not because of our fake guru or the greatness of the knowledge, but because many premies were good decent folks who were fun to live and work with (and we were saving the world). Also, not all ashrams were run by the David Smiths of the world. As “monastics,” we experienced the relief(however fleeting) that comes from giving everything up--surrendering. It’s that same experience that long-time premies hang on to today—that bit of psychic relief that comes from surrendering the reins of their lives to the LOTU. Same experience as christrians who have put their lives in Jesus’s hands. I think the dependency on that psychic relief is very hard to break and it’s a fix that’s easy to get—a program now and then, a tape when the anxiety gets too high or a trip to Amaroo when a full body baptism is required.

Regards,
Paul

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:26:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: That only makes sense if you're 'spiritual'
Message:
All you're really saying, Disculta, is that you were probably going to get sucked into some sort of spiritual trip anyway. If not this one, another. Furthermore, you really liked the whole idea of playing moth to the flame. You might not have wanted to play quite as hard as you did but, on a certain level, it sure was fun. Indeed, you still like to play a bit only now you've got a way of playing where no one gets hurt. Good, safe, clean spirituality. And why not, eh?
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:12:21 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Honesty! You're right, we need to see..
Message:
what we really got out of it, and what our motives were. I think sincerely practising any spiritual path rewards those on it, but there are phases you go through and you need a proper guide not a power-hungry teenager/man pushing you around. I had some great experiences in my first three years, mid-seventies, around 1977 it started getting a bit weird and has deteriorated from there.

I've been checking out a site called freedomofmind.com, it's a cult-monitoring site and has checklists of methods cults use - I entered Elan Vital, don't know if they've already been contacted but there's alot of helpful stuff on there, so you can distinguish what was the cult. The personal experiences i had were real, but not caused by m, caused by my own efforts and desire. He just screwed me up about what to desire, was all desire except for him wrong, and kept changing his mind about what the path was exactly.

People who practise meditation can have some bad effects as the chemistry of the mind tries to revert to its previous state, so that's another thing he should have told uas about, not frightened us into believing we were to blame for not ignoring the 'crazy mind' when things got a bit hairy. It's not to be messe with, personal transformation, and he just isn't up to the job - doesn't care about us, only himself.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:50:25 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: All these posts are good!
Message:
The essence of much that has been said here is that spiritual seekers will get somewhere, learn something, due to their efforts and sincerity, even if the Master is a Fraud. (Hey that gives me an idea for a song...rewrite the lyrics for the Lady is a Tramp...'That's why the Master is a Fraud.')

There are problems with worshipping a fraud, of course, and they do manifest eventually. Especially because of what creativejani just brought up: the spiritual path is fraught with difficulties and dangers as well as bliss and contentment, and a real teacher will address these issues.

A really good teacher might also point out some of the ways spirituality relates to life and love and emotional states and work and so forth. M did none of this.

Just as young engaged lovers face tragedy if they expect the honeymoon to last forever, spiritual seekers face trouble if they take Maharaji's rosy epigrams on Knowledge at face value.

If M knew anything at all about enlightenment and cared anything at all about his followers, he could be a decent teacher. But he doesn't, and he's not.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 22:14:59 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Are you saying ....
Message:
Gregg:

Agree there's a lot of good posts, including parts of yours. But are you saying that if there's a good teacher out there, who isn't a fraud, that the 'good teacher':

* can be seen as a master
* a human representation of the divine (i.e. God, Christ, Buddha whatever)
* should themselves be served in the name of a higher good
* surrendered to, and/or
* followed without question due to some sort of acceptance or acquired trust.

Just not sure what you're saying here. Although M is a fraud, are you saying that if he was not a fraud, then the whole Guru or Master trip is OK?

If you do, of course, that's you're prerogative, but we've posted back and forth on the edges of this issue and I've never exactly put it to you that way.

Best wishes, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:40:02 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Are you saying ....
Message:
'Gregg:

Agree there's a lot of good posts, including parts of yours. But are you
saying that if there's a good teacher out there, who isn't a fraud, that the
'good teacher':

* can be seen as a master'

No.
'* a human representation of the divine (i.e. God, Christ, Buddha whatever)'

A human manifestation of the divine, yes, as are we all. And a good teacher would probably manifest the divine more consistently and more clearly than many of us.

'* should themselves be served in the name of a higher good'

No.
'* surrendered to, and/or'

No!!
'* followed without question due to some sort of acceptance or acquired
trust.'

No!!!!!


'Just not sure what you're saying here. Although M is a fraud, are you
saying that if he was not a fraud, then the whole Guru or Master trip is OK?'

Not the Guru/Master trip as we learned it, but neither do I believe that all Gurus are necessarily corrupt. If they ask you to surrender, serve or do anything without question, that's obviously fucked up. If they claim special teaching abilities learned over time from practice and study...I would not reject those claims as automatically implausible, although I know many would.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:36:40 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Good, honest answer
Message:
And reasonable too. There are certainly people on this planet that I can learn from. When I came to M I had refused to learn from anyone. To go running to the other extreme is to miss the ability to learn.

You said: A human manifestation of the divine, yes, as are we all. And a good teacher would probably manifest the divine more consistently and more clearly than many of us.

I took piano lessons, and guitar lessons, and voice lessons and all manner of studies in school. Perfectly reasonable that there's people that we can learn about meditation or guidance from. Many people on this forum have gone to counselors and psychiatrists, and that takes a measure of trust. We learn from everyone really, even those we learn to avoid!

I agree that gurus are not all corrupt -- I've met some that definitely aren't, and don't seem to have much for themselves in the world and don't need it. They travel and teach. However, I cannot accept a relationship with any individual wherein they would want to be my guru. I don't want to be their disciple, although I don't mind being a student that doesn't accept the guru trip.

Guru-less at last and loving it. Thanks for your response!

Namaste, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:42:56 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I'll get high with a little help from my friends
Message:
Here on Forum Five. Great thread. See you Sat.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:12:06 (GMT)
From: Scot Jamieson
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: (To new exes.) Much appreciated. Very true. NT.
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:00:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Nostalgia is indiscriminate
Message:
The way I figure it, there's loss all over the place. I had a nap a while ago and dreamt about some old friends being in the same town as me but never calling, fading away, drifting off into the past. I felt that kind of poignant nostalgia I have for all sorts of things when the mood hits. The past is like an old burnt house. You can see it, touch the walls, you can even find odd trinkets and mementos in the ashes. You just can't live there any longer. It's gone and yes, if you're in the mood, it hurts a bit. Well, at least you can feel it.

And so, all these Maharaji-memories can touch you just like that. Every time an old premie friend shows up, like Gary Epton a couple of months ago or Scottie more recently, or even Deputy Dog some time before, I get a warm buzz over the past, as if I could almost reach out ...and ... be there? Something?

And then, I guess, there's the rich vein of nostalgia one can feel for the time we were once devotees of the Lord of the Universe. I show my colleagues at work the '74 Rolling Stone article and it's all laughs. They don't hear the little sigh under my breath as I relive that part of my life for a moment or two. But that's nostalgia for you. Indiscriminate, golden-hued and gossamir-veiled, it's all about you being there, anywhere really. Discrimination's for the future. This is the life you've already lived and yeah, that memory strokes you, however briefly. Seduced by the past, but why not? If it hurts, it's manageable. It's kind of a nice pain, in a way.

But sometimes I wonder, when people finally realize that Maharaji's had a big fall and all the king's horses and all the king's men can't do dick about it, do they ever imagine the opposite. What if Maharajism [thank you, Pat C!] was true just the way he fed it to us way back when? Talk about dystopia or what??

Go back to the days when you actually believed that your entire future lay in becoming yet another Arthur Brigham, Ira Woods or Cathy Sullivan. There was nothing else to look forward to. That was it. I mean, even Mormon's only have to do their missionary thing for two years, not a lifetime. But Maharaji was out to beat down the mind and that, as he explained, was a lifetime affair. Constant vigilance beyond our worst fears. That was the program and no, he being the Lord, there were no options. It was ugly, dehumanizing and just sheer freaky.

So, I dunno. When I even begin to think about what a 'beautiful dream' we left behind, I have to ask myself 'Are you fucking nuts or something??' The worst thing that ever could have befallen us would most definitely be learning that Maharaji was indeed the Lord of the Universe. Luckily he's not. School's out forever.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:51:50 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Nostalgia is indiscriminate
Message:
Yeah, I'm nostalgic for the pre-lawyer, dewey-eyed pup of a premie, strumming his guitar and singin' some good ol' time devotional ditties in front of the roaring fire (too much ghee in those arti candles). I can see it all now zzzz..... shit, back to the forum.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:29:39 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Nostalgia is a drug
Message:
I've mentioned before that after practicing K faithfully for 14 years, I stopped within one week of a K review with M. I took his arrogant remark 'you don't have to practice knowledge, you know' to heart. Fast forward 7 years and I'm getting wistful for 'the good old days' of comaraderie and a sense of purpose. So off I go to Long Beach and was blown away by the buzz. There was a slide show going of the old days. Having worked with literally thousands of slides of M in my IHQ publication service, I could name the time and place of almost every image. With and the instrumental version of arti and Lord of the Universe Has Come to Us This Day tinkling away as soundtrack, I was hooked again. I'm not kidding. It felt good to be nostalgic and emotional for 'that time' and 'that feeling'. This after 7 years of no meditation or programs.

At the third Long Beach Event, while ignoring the slo-mo premie porn and mediocre poetry videos, I had a frightening thought. 'Yeah, this feels good. Wouldn't it be great to just surrender to this feeling and be taken away from the day-to-day routine.' In fact I was imagining being saved - to use a Christian term. At that point I knew that I could no longer go down the road of giving my power away to an idea of salvation. And that's all it is - an idea, not a reality. It's the possibility of realization that keeps the premies coming back.

An old friend who I hadn't talked with in 10 years told me he also went to a program recently after many years of not seeing M and 'got blown away'. Nostalgia is powerful indeed.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 13:58:19 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: micheled@bga.com
To: Jim
Subject: And then there's 20/20 hindsight too
Message:
You speak, Jim, as if Maharaji was one who would break people's spirit, when actually it is quite the opposite. I received Knowledge on July 16, 1972 and moved into the ashram in May or June of 1973 and (with ease and with one even one person trying to talk me out of it) moved out of the ashram June 1976. Was active just three years in the 'old days.' Then wasn't truly active again until around 1991 -- and really for the first time, in the sense that back in the ashram days practicing Knowledge (i.e., 'going within' to experience that connection and that divinity within) was sporadic at best. Back in the early '70s I was mostly just 'high' off of listening to Maharaji (many, many hours a day, since my full-time service was to transcribe Maharaji's talks -- satsangs as we called them back then) and being around other people that loved Maharaji and Knowledge too.

Then I got really active -- plus starting practicing every single day and have missed less than 5 days practicing for the past 10 years. I have giving hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of my time, and I have contributed, with great pleasure, much of my resources. Do you want to know how this has affected me as a person?

Now, there are at least three people who regularly post on this website for years now who are what I might call 'adamant' ex-premies -- who feel certain they are doing some great service to humanity by 'warning' people away from him -- as you do -- who knew me back in those ashram days. I worked on the same floor of the Kitrredge Building as them. Joy even worked right next to me for a while before being moved down the hall to do full-time typesetting. Joy knew me better than Disculta or Roger did, but they all knew me at least a little bit.

They all knew me or were at least familiar with my persona, what I acted like when they saw me. I don't know if they will be willing to admit it or not, but back then I was a shy and quiet person to anyone but my closest friends. I came from a back- ground of being overwhelmingly insecure and my self-esteem while growing up was incredibly low. Surely much of that still showed back then, as I was only 19 through 22 years old when I lived in the ashram and knew them.

I have become quite a bold, self-confident and adventurous person, Jim. I have the freedom now to say what I feel and think in front of the world, without having asked Maharaji's permission. In fact, I am willing for Maharaji to even be upset with me about this, if that's what he decides to feel. Doesn't mean I'll stop loving him if he's upset with me. Doesn't mean he'll stop loving me either. Because that love, you see, between me and Maharaji, it's not a romantic love or the kind of love friends might have because they agree with one another or support one another about all their opinions. That love between me and Maharaji is something so real, and so uncanny, even death will not defy it.

I'm looking forward to doing some catching up on the posts here soon, but yesterday I got a damned hoax in my e-mail that took up half my day to deal with and must tend to some things. I hope to be able to make time to visit this site again soon.

Meanwhile, hope you all have a great day!

Cheers

Michele Deradune (not an ex)

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:53:50 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: You're characterization of me is not correct
Message:
Now, there are at least three people who regularly post on this website for years now who are what I might call 'adamant' ex-premies -- who feel certain they are doing some great service to humanity by 'warning' people away from him

You called me Roger but I think you meant Richard (last name Rogers). You have also caracterized my inaccurately. My purpose here is to: #1 Explore my thoughts, emotions and beliefs in relation to my involvement with M and K. #2 Recover the positive parts of myself that were alive before M & K. #3 Support others in their process of finding their own inner authority. #4 Enjoy the gossip. #5 Have a few laughs - usually at the expense of M's arrogant pomposity.

I do recall you as being both a quiet and yet powerful woman. I'm sure you and many of us had our reasons to be shy and not fully out there as a human being. This, in fact, drew us to focus much of our energies outside ourselves. It was far greater to serve the Lord of the Universe than face our own emotional wounds and weaknesses. It takes a brave and strong person to admit their own weaknesses and work towards freeing themselves to live a full life. To some extent, I have done that for myself and in the process determined I no longer needed an authority figure in my life. I became confident enough in my self to make decisions and be willing to accept the consequences - good, bad or indifferent- and learn from the choices I made. At that point, to hear M openly ridicule personal growth, therapy or peoples ordinary 'rat hole existence' was and is offensive. Especially when one finds out he has avoided any form of introspection at all unless the 'Cognac a day keeps the pain away' school of therapy really works.

I personally have no interest in warning anyone about M or bringing him down. I just say what I know from my own experience and let them make up their minds. Obviously if you are reading and posting here you have some questions bubbling to the surface so please feel free to explore.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 18:30:38 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: My apologies, Richard
Message:
Somehow it did not become apparent to me that you were not here just to diss Maharaji and his mission, and you are absolutely correct that it was wrong of me to characterize you as I did.

Peace

Michele (not an ex)

Now, I am very tired of all this and am leaving. I may not come back. I always had this funny quirk that I don't much like to be where I am not wanted -- and clearly the 'powers that be' here are showing signs that I have worn out my welcome.

Anyhow, nice typing to you and Katie and Joy and others, for how long it lasted. I wish you all the best in your endeavors in the pursuit of happiness.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:33:45 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: That's not an apology--it's an EX-Cuse (nt)
Message:
zzzz
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:50:10 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Thanks and please stick around /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:53:28 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Michelle-'sont les mots qui vont PAS tres bien
Message:
ensemble,' or if you prefer the Pointer Sisters
'STOP! in the Holy name of love, before you stay in your MIND, stay in your MIND'
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 19:28:13 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Just give me the facts please maam.
Message:
Michele,

You say you were active for only three years between '76 and '91. What happened to you for the other twelve years? Did you have an accident and were you in a coma? Who looked after you?

I hope you are fully recovered.

Michele, it's nice to see a premie such as yourself bounce onto the forum, exuding love, light and wisdom. I think if I had found the forum when I was a believer I would have approached it the same way. I hope you stick around long enough to have a chat.

Anyway, I'd like to ask you three things.

Do you believe that Guru is greater than God?

What would you say if someone dear, and close to you, but maybe younger, like one of your children or nieces, eg, said, 'I've heard this wonderful news about this very special person who has the secret of happiness. It's within everyone. It's called, 'The Divine Principle'. I'm going to devote myself to the teacher. I'm going to sell my house, give everything to his cult, and work tirelessly doing whatever the Rev. Moon wants me to do.'?

Would you try and talk them out of it? If so why? Or would you be happy that they had found happiness, and were going to work 20 hour days in an Armalite rifle factory in South Korea, owned by their new spiritual master?

And, my final question for the evening, (this is a wild one, but easy) if your Master phoned you up and said, 'Michele, I've got something I want you to do, but it's going to sound really strange. Will you do it?' (You say, 'Yes Maharaji. It will be my pleasure.')
Then he asks you to cut off a couple of fingers, put them in a bag and bring them round, would you do it?

Anth, the devils avocado

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 07:36:11 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Just give me the facts please maam.
Message:
Anth, that is a lame-ass analogy, and you know it. Where are you, that you can envision Maharaji asking someone to do that? Every head a planet, I guess. Paranoia strikes deep, and into your heart is HAS creeped--crept, homeboy. Get a fucking grip.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 15:16:14 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Mr Williams, you're too close to the trees,
Message:
Ever hear of a hypothetical example Mr Williams?

Maybe I touched a raw nerve here.

Who'd have thought, one minute you're a devotee of the living Lord, just like Jesus disciples, the next you're in a fucking cult, just like the Moonies.

Anth the been there done that.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:35:29 (GMT)
From: La-ex
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Oh Ms, Banana-Dune---2 ?'s from a simple guy...
Message:
Now, here we go again, Ms. BananaDune...

I've got a little problem with some things you have said, and I have two little questions for you, based on your recent posts.

1-You wish the ashram was around today, because you would join it, if you could.It's the greatest. It's even better than sex. (personally, I disagree with this, but hey, I'm not you...)

Q-If the ashram is/was so great, why on earth did you leave after only 3 years of what was supposed to be a ifetime commitment?
You said you were unhappy in the ashram, left, and never looked back.

Now, if you were unhappy in it, why would you be so excited about joining it now?
And how could you walk away from the greatest thing on earth, and not feel any regrets?

Are you sure you are not fantasizing and mythologizing about the 'good old ashram days'?
Something clearly doesn't add up.

The ashram is the greatest, but the only time you were there, you were unhappy in it, and actually left it...(hmmm)
But now you would be happy in it? (double hmmm)

2-You state that the love you have with M is uncanny, and even defies death.
It might be uncanny, but can you tell me one way that you can prove it will defy death, other than you believe it, or M told you to believe it?
Do you know what happens when you die? And will you even feel or know about this love when you do pass? Again, HOW do you know this?
Pray tell how your divine bananaship has ascertained this.
I think we'd all like to know.

I know this is therapy for you.
It is for most of us.
But it only really works when you're willing to be totally honest and leave the fantasies behind.

sincerely,
La-ex (an ex)
(I still think you'd make a far better Sadguru than M, even with your flaws. You are far more honest than he is, even though he's a better pilot.
BTW, how's your dancing, particularly with a mala and crown on?...just wondering))

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 05:22:24 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Oh Ms, Banana-Dune---2 ?'s from a simple guy...
Message:
Hi La, I only have time to read and respond to one post, so I picked yours coz you wrote that post about the video events that I loved so much!!!

Okay, first question: if I loved the ashram so much, why did I leave. There were 3 contributing factors, and when all three converged I knew it was time to leave: (1) One of the premies in DUO personnel gave me a visit one day to tell me that it had been decided that 'you're too attached to your service, and besides, it's time to share and let other people transcribe the satsangs.' (I couldn't argue about the attachment, I did love my service; and well, what could I say? I hated it, but there you go.) My next service was mostly graveyard shift answering the telephones at the switchboard -- during the hours when there were awfully near zero calls. I just listened to music (cassette tapes borrowed from the public library) on a tape recorder and drank coffee and felt very unuseful. I felt that I was not contributing anymore and that I was more of a leech on the system if I wasn't really doing anything, and fact is, I was so heartbroken about having my service jerked away from me that I was pretty darned sad. (2) During all those graveyard shift hours, other than raiding the kitchen in 411 (was that the number) with a petite ashram premie friend who knew how to get in despite all the padlocks -- the premie security guard was in on it too -- after all, it was the middle of the night munchies we had to deal with, LOL. Other than that, I did a lot of thinking, and when I thought about, 'What if I move out of the ashram? What would it be like? What would I do with my life?' I very quickly learned that the thought of moving out *terrified* me. I was scared that my life would become terrible and that I would not be able to cope. And...well...I have always had this really, really strong belief in that quote that some U.S. President once said (was it Teddy Roosevelt? not sure!): 'The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.' And I was so afraid of moving out I felt that the only way to face that fear was to move out. (3) About this same time, but just before my service (as the transcriptionist of all of Maharaji's satsangs in English) was jerked away from me, Maharaji had given a talk (then called satsang) where he said (for the very first time!!) that the ashram was like a hospital, and it was a place for people in intensive care could go to heal, and that then they should hopefully, when they heal, be able to go ahead and move out. This was the very first time I ever conceived that I might not be in the ashram 'for life.' It no doubt encouraged me to think about moving out. I went to the person in charge in personnel (who was Rives McDow at the time) and told him I wanted to move out and when he asked me why I referred to Maharaji's satsang about the hospital and that I felt I was ready to leave. I don't know if I really felt I had healed; but I really had no sense of how to measure that. I just knew it was time to go. He said okay and asked me if I needed any money to move out. I asked for only a very small amount because I didn't want to take money away from DUO funds and my parents lived in the same town and I knew I could live with them until I got on my feet. And that's what I did.

The day you can define love for me, maybe that will be the day I can tell you why I know this love will defy death. Deal?

I know you all like to think that I am in therapy here. However since I don't feel that that is the case, I can't respond to references to such. For me this board is therapy in the sense that it is the only place where people who even know who Maharaji is converge, with public welcome, and I am allowed to say whatever the fuck I want to say. I have been feeling forced to 'hold back' any and all expression regarding Maharaji to a great extent for many years, and the 'dam is exploding,' if you will. Really I am powerless to do anything about it. I cannot stop it. As I said to the city contact where I live just a few months ago, when I was telling her I could not attend any more meetings at the hall, 'I have lost the ability to keep my mouth shut. It is impossible for me not to say what I think.' And as I told another local organizer helping organize the KIT session in our town coming soon, when she offered to put me on a list for a 'free scholarship' (after I expressed something very negative about the fact that the charge here is $75), I told her, 'No thank you. If I came to the KIT meeting I would only be disruptive.' She said no, I wouldn't be disruptive, and I said, 'No, believe me. I would be disruptive.' It is because I have lost the ability to hold it in anymore. I have been holding it in for so long, like a pregnant woman and the gestation has gone 13 months instead of 9 months and all she can do is push out that baby, no matter was the cost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Back to the ashram stuff again: I don't believe I would have become unhappy with living in the ashram had I been practicing and listening on a regular basis. Fact is, I hated the so-called 'satsang' of most of other premies because -- and this is really true, I don't know if Joy might remember me telling her this, but I may have told her. I know I told just the few closer friends I had at that time, something like this: 'I am soooooo glad that I have the service of transcribing Maharaji's satsang, because nobody feels comfortable laying a trip on me to make me go to the local satsangs, because they know that I listen to Maharaji all day every day in my service and there is no way they can argue that I should go to listen to premies give satsang when I have been listening to the Top Guy all the time! And I am sooooo glad I don't have to go, because almost every time I go to satsang, someone ends up saying something that just TOTALLY bums me out!!! Like really hurts my feelings or sensitivities. I guess I was overly sensitive or something, but only Maharaji's satsang and Rajaji's satsang never ever made me feel bad, only made me feel good. You must remember, in those days people did not have (for the most part) access to tape recordings or videos of Maharaji. People say him live once in a blue moon and the rest of the time they were hearing other premies give 'satsang' (talks) or reading Maharaji's words I had transcribed in the publications we put out. I was in a *very* unique position, and for this reason I will admit I was TERRIBLY spoiled. And like a spoiled child, when Ellen Martin gave me the axe on that service, it was like I got thrown to another planet. I could not enjoy listening to premies lay their trips and so I didn't go to satsang programs (which they had every single night and everybody in the ashram was supposed to attend eveyr single night). I think that is probably why I got a service on the graveyard shift. I betcha I finagled that on purpose just so I would have an excuse to not have to go to satsang!! So: No satsang, no 'real' service, plus I wasn't hardly ever practicing. Hence, my joy left me. And I got back to the usual things 'normal' people do and think about. I went on with my life as if the ashram had never even happened, for many years...

Today I am of a new experience. Today I am someone who has been practicing every day (except for a few days) for 10 years. I got to listen to Maharaji again and didn't have to listen to premies lay their trips (except when instructors came to town or I read Elan Vital missives, etc.) for 10 years, and I did a lot of service where I felt I was useful for 10 years. Today I am ready to move back into the ashram...and know I would be happier there now than ever before. But, alas, there aren't ashrams in the U.S. anymore. So it is just a dream, a wish... My son will be all grown up soon. (Does Hansi really like older women? What does he look like? LOL) Oh, what was I saying? Sorry about that, LOL!!! Ummmm...oh, yeah. My son will be all grown soon and I have been 'single mom city' most of his life and that's my main duty and all for so long that it's time to start thinking about what I will do when he has flown the roost. And wistfully I do wish I could move in an ashram.

Okay, guys. I gotta go to sleep -- I think about this website all the time (along with thinking about Maharaji all the time), and I hope you will continue to let me post here. I am kind of paranoid. I am so used to being censored, I keep cringing and waiting for the axe to fall!!

la, you wouldn't want to see me dance unless you are into big sized women. I was medium sized in ashram days but nowadays I am what they call down here in Texas a 'Big Mama!' and I know you all hate for your Satgurus to be big. I make Maharaji look skinny, LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 06:07:00 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: I need to make one thing perfectly clear
Message:
Regarding this:

For me this board is therapy in the sense that it is the only place where people who even know who Maharaji is converge, with public welcome, and I am allowed to say whatever the fuck I want to say.

Yes, you are welcome to post here, but please do not try to treat this forum simply as a place for expressing your love for your fat Indian guru, for that is not its intended purpose. For that, you have Enjoying Life website or even Chris Dickey's forum (ask him about it, he posts here as CD)

Primarily this is a place for ex-premies, and premies are allowed to post here as guests so long as they are not disruptive or make a nuisance of themselves. We do have the ability to restrict the size and quantity of posts made by individuals, or to block them from posting entirely, based solely on a judgement call by one of us Forum Administrators.

I hope I have made my point, and that you will not pad out your contributions with excessive amounts of 'satsang', or other forms of devotional tripe - we truly do not need it and do not have to put up with it.

FA

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:49:30 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Michele, mabye you just grew up
Message:
I have become quite a bold, self-confident and adventurous person, Jim. I have the freedom now to say what I feel and think in front of the world, without having asked Maharaji's permission.

Are you crediting Maharaji and knowledge for this personality change? Why? Maybe you just grew up, Michele, like most people who have never even heard of Maharaji.

Because that love, you see, between me and Maharaji, it's not a romantic love or the kind of love friends might have because they agree with one another or support one another about all their opinions. That love between me and Maharaji is something so real, and so uncanny, even death will not defy it.

We were all premies, Michele, we know very well all about THAT love. The thing that was difficult for many of us to realize is that THAT love, isn't love. It's a fantasy. It seems real, but it isn't. What I have discovered in my life is that you can't 'love' someone you don't know. And you can't 'love' someone when he is the 'master' and you are the 'student.' That isn't love. In our cases as premies, since we didn't know Maharaji beyond seeing him sitting on stages with thrones and devotional music, it really can't be love. It's fantasy.

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:21:36 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Do let us know if you are 'contacted'
Message:
I'm 100% certain that your bold in-maharaji's-face exhibitionism has already attracted the attention of the Elan Vital monitors. Believe me they do exist and I know who some of them are.

Will you let us know when (and I mean when) you are contacted by some 'concerned' premie, probably an instructor, re your involvement here?

Also, how about sharing your experiences next time you try to 'participate' at anything higher than event usher level, and whether you can attribute the subtle distancing of the event organizers to anything other than posting on the forum?

Finally, being as you have made yourself at home so readily, when might we expect you to own up to your previous incarnations on the forum, or would that little revelation spoil the death-defying love between you and maharaji?

And please, take me off your email 'buddy' list would ya?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 17:49:17 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Bas, do us all a favor...
Message:
I think we have a right to know what other names this person has used on the forum prior to this.

It gives us a better idea about whom we are dealing and keeps us from unnecessarily going over old ground again.

Plus, I'm curious as hell..

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 16:23:55 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: I think you're just substituting...
Message:
You state that you meditate regularly and obviously you concentrate on your 'love affair' with m.
You are not afraid to upset him by doing things against his will.
(bad girl!)
I think the love you are referring to has absolutely, absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with maherji. no hidden qualities, powers, ownership of knowledge, holy lineages, or whatever one can come up with.
The spirituality, or however you want to name it is real of course.
But just like the jews in the desert, you are just dancing around a golden calf.
I personally would prefer the latter, since it a more obvious symbol, and probably a nice work of art..
An interesting question could be: what happened to the devoted premies of shri hans,who when he died lived on the 'wrong side of the track' and so are following 'the wrong master'
Do you really think that there would be even the slightest difference in their experience of this 'love ' since then??
Or that you would notice when his security double would wave to you from a distance?
When I think I see a person I love from a distance in the publix, I do feel a hot surge of love and exitement, only to find out it is someone else. This proves that those experiences are completely self contained, our brains are just programmed to facilitate it when triggered, mostly subconciously by ourself, but highly influenced by cult-ure
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:20:14 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Let me get this straight
Message:
Michele,

You speak of the love between you and Maharaji in a manner that reminds me of one of my personal altars in the ashram. I had a picture of Rawat in white dohti sitting on his throne. Beside this picture I had the verses from Song of Solomon that begin with: 'My beloved is mine and I am his: he feedeth among the lillies...His head is as the most fine gold, his locks are bushy and black as a raven.' The words go on to say something about his hands being like two gold rings and his legs like columns of marble- sure enough, Rawat's hands in the picture are golden colored and posed on his lap in two circles and his pantlegs look quite a bit like marble (with a little imagination).

The idea is, of course, that the power of Creation manifests to its creatures as the Christ, being universal love. We know this Christ within, but by even greater grace he takes human form to return us to himself.

But then you go on to say that if you happen to displease your perfect lover, it doesn't really bother you much. You're quite comfortable with the possibility of him being 'upset with you.'

Really now! How to reconcile these sentiments? Don't you think it's best, when dealing with the dispenser of divine grace, to stay on his good side?

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 15:00:34 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: And then there's 20/20 hindsight too
Message:
Hi Michele -

You wrote, about you and Maharaji:

Because that love, you see, between me and Maharaji, it's not a romantic love or the kind of love friends might have because they agree with one another or support one another about all their opinions. That love between me and Maharaji is something so real, and so uncanny, even death will not defy it.

I really have to wonder how you 'know' this. Do you know Maharaji personally? Does he call you when he has a problem, or vice versa? Can you depend on him to be there for you when you need him (and I'm not talking about in your head!). I'm not denying that you feel this - I just have to wonder how much truth there is to it.

And I very much disagree with your definition of love between friends as resulting from 'agreeing from one another, or supporting each other about all their opinions'. I'd have to say that I don't have ANY close friends who I 'agree with about everything'. I don't even agree with my husband about things a lot of time! It doesn't matter, either - it's the person that matters. If you think that the love between you and M is so special because you will love each other even though you disagree or get angry at each other, you are incorrect - and I would hope that someday you'd experience this kind of love from at least one other person in the real world!

Also, I have to wonder WHY in the WORLD you are posting HERE - especially since you've already made it very clear that you don't like Elan Vital but still follow Maharaji - which was apparently your original message. Are you by any chance trying to get Maharaji to pay attention to you, or to notice you? Of course, you're entitled to post here, but I think it's kind of sad that you feel the need to post on an EX-premie forum about your love for Maharaji.

Take care,
Katie H (the OTHER Katie)

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:27:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: That's inane
Message:
What? You're crediting m with the fact that you've matured a bit in spite of everything? That's daft.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:20:42 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: And then there's self-delusion
Message:
I'd be interested to hear what m's done to make you think he loves you. From what I've heard, plenty of long-time devotees have been banished and never forgiven by m, not the action of a compassionate and wise person, which is what you think he is. You are living an imaginary love-affair with an icon who gets drunk, cheats on his wife and has affairs with followers and has no interest in their welfare when he dumps them. Sorry, abut you should take a reality chek now. Your postings show you haven't lookedd at any Journeys and haven't learned anything from this site.
You imagine you're brave and confident, but if you were you'd look at the evidence, not just carry-on with this fantasy 'relationship' you think you've got. It don't exist - to m, you're nothing. Does he send you birthday cards, call you up, answer letters? Nope. Does he know your name? Nope. What kind of relationshiop is that - you're mistaking him for your heart, remember the experience comes from within - he has nothing to do with it.
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:07:56 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: or 0, like you. BLIND!
Message:
I have become quite a bold, self-confident and adventurous person, Jim. I have the freedom now to say what I feel and think in front of the world

Yea, but you still talk like a cult member, you make an ass out of yourself and you have no way to show you are healthy mentally, at all. You have ideas thh are not true and cannot even consider being wrong! You are LOST!

You are enjoying being especial (yuck) and happy. To the hell with the 'world' and us, ex-premies. Is taht real LOVE? NOT. You talk like him baby, and if he's disgusting that make you one too.

You are an ass, ignotant that is. A real ass do its thing and you haven't after so many years come up with a better way to live your life as a devotee of a greedy, sick, lacking morals GURU?

Get lost, please. Eat shit!

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:01:29 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: micheled@bga.com
To: Everyone
Subject: typo
Message:
Sorry...I do professional editing for a living from time to time, but I'll be damned if I ever seem to have the patience to proofread my own stuff! I meant to say 'without even one person trying to talk me out of it' (with regard to my leaving the ashram in May or June 1976).

Michele (not an ex)

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 14:09:15 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: typo
Message:
What in hell that means Michelle. Please explain that one to me. I don't get it.

Thanks,LOVE,

Silvia

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 03:07:44 (GMT)
From: Sam Hardy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Talking of Arthur Brigham
Message:
whatever happened to the guy? (how's that for nostalgia?) Last I heard he was in Cairns, Australia, involved in some interesting scam. I understand Ira is still firmly welded to the feet.
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:55:08 (GMT)
From: Silvia Sommer
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: David Smith, David Mancoff, EV? Want to talk
Message:
with me? Write or call me; you all have my phone number. I ha
ven't moved . Too poor, spending too much, supporting your shinnanigan over the years.

I dare you to have a talk with me. LOL

I love you both/all. Real love here, not plastic like yours.

silvia

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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 18:04:47 (GMT)
From: How about
Email: None
To: Silvia Sommer
Subject: Joan Apter, Ira Woods, and Bill Patterson ? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:01:03 (GMT)
From: LdM repost
Email: None
To: Silvia Sommer
Subject: Three stages of cult recovery
Message:
Hi there
I've just been reading some really good stuff on the Cult Awareness and Info Centre at http://www.caic.org - I've copied an excerpt below. I'm floundering somewhere in Stage Two but am definitely aiming for Stage Three.

******
There are three main stages in the recovery process:

* Realisation and Exit

* Comprehension and Emotions

* Reconstruction and Dreaming

Stage One

This first stage varies in length. The length is dependent on the method of exiting. This stage is marked by the time and experience that alerted the cultist to the danger of the group and resulted in the cultist exiting the group permanently. The key to an effective exit is whatever helps to 'jump start' the critical thinking process of the mind. This process has been on hold for much too long because the cult has told the followers that to question and doubt the group is to betray god (or whatever). The price for questioning and doubting, they are told, is eternal death. This is a very powerful fear to overcome.

Awareness of the insidious nature of the cult and the decision to leave comes slowly for some and quickly for others. For example, someone receiving exit-counselling becomes aware and leaves the cult very quickly as compared to someone who walks out after reflecting over several months or years on 'devil- inspired' doubts.

Even after leaving, some ex-cultists are not sure if they made the right decision and 'float' between their old cult identity and their new freed identity or pre-cult self. The more information and support a cultist receives during this stage, the better equipped they are to handle the pain and loss of stage two.

Stage Two

The second phase is full of ups and downs, of feeling like you just returned from Mars, of exciting new freedoms and discoveries, and it is also full of rage and pain. It involves coming to terms with being raped, emotionally and spiritually. And for many, it involves coming to terms with being physically raped as well.

I don't know how to convey the extremes of pain possible in this phase. Perhaps, it is how you would feel standing by helplessly as some crazy person slowly murdered someone you loved. It seems so incredulousness to many that because they wanted to serve god and their country, wanted to help people, and wanted to make the world a better place - for this extension of their selves they were cruelly used. This is a very difficult aspect of the experience to reconcile. 'What ever did I do to be treated like this?' is a question that rings deep in the heart of any ex-cultist. The answer to this question resides in understanding how mind control techniques work.

It is no wonder, then, that the rage and anger the ex-cultist feels is often overwhelming and frightening. So much so, that many tend to repress or deny the full expression of their emotions. But, understanding and feeling ones' emotions in a non-destructive way, I believe, is critical to recovery. This second phase can be extraordinary journey through pain and loss to learning and mastery. It varies in length and is dependent on how able the ex-cultist is to experience loss and how disciplined the ex-cultist is to study, think, and work toward a thorough understanding of the experience.

A Big Job

One of the truly tough parts about working through the experience is the very fact that it's a very big job. The ex- cultist must learn how to trust life again and learning to trust requires learning how to reality test. Because the cult phobias and teachings often touched on many aspects of life, such as family, government, education, religion, relationships, and economics, the ex-cultist often finds it necessary to examine and reality test most, if not all, of the teachings received in the cult for subtle, residual ideas that continue to manipulate the ex-cultist.

In addition, it is in this phase that the individual must learn how to trust themselves again and their ability to make decisions. Learning to trust after you have been used and hurt can be very scary, but trust in oneself and in others can be rebuilt with disciplined thinking and with courage. For those who come from dysfunctional backgrounds, recovering from the cult experience often means acknowledging and recovering from the effects of earlier dysfunctional relationships, such as:

* Abusive parents, relatives, siblings, spouse or abusing others

* Alcoholism, rape, incest, eating disorders, drug abuse

* Difficulties with intimacy, careers, law enforcement

Stage Three

To someone in the middle of the pain of stage two, the idea of having a dream again and building toward it is merely a sad, frustrating, and painful laugh. Having spent many years in stage two I understand that despondent feeling well. It is possible to rebuild your life. You will not be able to make up for all the years the cult has stolen from you, but you can make up for some of those lost years. I've worked very, very hard to recover from a severely dysfunctional family, a life of abuse emotional, physical and sexual, the death of a daughter, many years in a cult, time on drugs and alcohol to 'forget' and so on.

I'm here to share with you that if you are willing to stick with it, to work at it, to work through and let go of myths that look like truths both from the cult's teaching and from within society's teachings, and if you are willing to acquire new skills and improve others, you can and will be able to build a healthy and well-functioning life with a dream you can work toward.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:42:36 (GMT)
From: suchabananer
Email: None
To: LsMft
Subject: 1 barf cult/cry;2 drink 6-pak;3 wakeup sober/alive
Message:
or 1. drink the six-pak nectar first, then 2. barf up the cult and cry, and then 3. wake up with occult hangover, but take 2 tylenol and - finally feel yourself again! Then, stand on own 2 feet and get on with life...

Throw away the false crutches/clutches of guru's 666 brain chip implantation.

* Commandments *:

1. Do not put off exiting cult and rugu clutches till tomorrow when you can do it today.

2. Constantly be alert and remember your own Name. [Or, simply Remember: the Bird is the Word.... bababababababababababababab humama mau bababa humama mao human mau maui wowie zowie holi cowie chihuahua]

3. Leave no room for cult concepts in your mind. [Or, leave room for cult doubts in your mind. Remember, a mind is a terrible thing to lose.]

4. Always have faith in your innate spirit and intelligence. [Or, always have faith in your inner energy.]

5. Never delay in attending to your own life.

and uh, like maybe, Mind your peas and queues [cukes],

da lil' swami such
j. suchabanana

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:25:39 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: LdM repost
Subject: Thanks for that (nt)
Message:
ge
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:58:24 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: LdM repost
Subject: Three stages of cult recovery/excellent ! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 31, 2001 at 04:03:59 (GMT)
From: s
Email: None
To: LdM repost
Subject: thank you, much nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 30, 2001 at 23:51:01 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Where is the MONEY going: EV is broke
Message:
The money goes to 'YOU KNOW WHO, OF COURSE'. The biggest liar of all, Prempal Rawat, A.K.A. GURU MAHARAJ JI, The lordy of the Universe. Such a pleasure that I got to know you.

I'll see you soon maharaji, I promise.

I love u 2 sewwtheart, but you are a bad boy who never grew up! Sorry to remind you of that, spoil brat!

Premies, wake up!!

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