Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:50:44 (GMT)
From: May 30, 2001 To: Jun 04, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


creativejani -:- from one extreme to the other - a trap for us all. -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:13:57 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- yeah,the premie neurotic alpha female syndrome(nt -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 00:23:31 (GMT)
__ Chuck Sprague -:- from one extreme to the other - I hear you -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 19:02:16 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Alpha male? -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:33:27 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- I was quoting from 'the Spiritual Personality' -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:07:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- I was quoting from 'the Spiritual Personality' -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 01:33:50 (GMT)
__ So Jane,....... -:- are you seeking permission from the gang.......... -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:50:02 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- No, stupid. Just expressing my current -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 21:50:59 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- are you seeking permission from the gang.......... -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:29:14 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Right on creativejani! -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:48:40 (GMT)
__ __ SB/Silvia -:- To detest doesn't mean to hate: Face it -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 03:02:46 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Simplistic and off the mark, Dog -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:08:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Simplistic and on the mark, Jim! -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:33:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve M -:- Off the wall bullshit Dep -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 19:25:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Don't bite the hand that feeds you, Dog -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:48:50 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Jani, for what it's worth, my movement away from -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:31:26 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- Sf, eh? Now you're talking! If I had any money -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:41:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- I enjoy you kicking around ideas -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:49:39 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- To Creativejani -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:51:42 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- With all due respect, that's not logical, Jane -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:08:12 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- I didn't say it did. I just meant try another -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:23:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- You do great! -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 02:41:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- What exactly are we talking about? -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:59:43 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Looks like EV's ready to sue Combat/libel -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:55:03 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- The Captain's thrown a fit. -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:30:46 (GMT)
__ __ silvia -:- Michael Nouri LOOKS like HELL -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:35:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabananer -:- sad news).MN was friend.maybe future ex-premie!(nt -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 00:06:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sil -:- sad news).MN was friend.maybe future ex-premie!(nt -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:16:25 (GMT)
__ kev -:- that will be good for a laugh ;-))NT -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:37:29 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- not that much actually -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:46:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ kev -:- not that much actually -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 00:17:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- My guess on this -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:22:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- M distancing from EV -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:46:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Is the J-M [..] post connected, do you think?nt -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:33:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- It could be -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:44:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ mr.bojangles -:- Despotic Dictators. -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:58:04 (GMT)

Steve Mulley -:- Life shaping beliefs from the East -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 10:40:28 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- Well Said That Man! Good post. nt -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 16:51:48 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- that's ok.sucha good post! haha.Peace + lentils(nt -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:57:55 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- A really well-said, important post, Steve -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:31:43 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- Try this article on The Spiritual Personality, it -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:12:43 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- link www.jps.net/brainsci/traits.htm didn't -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:42:41 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Life shaping beliefs from the East -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:43:12 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- thank you for this post -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:17:41 (GMT)
__ Mili -:- Life shaping beliefs from the East -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:22:04 (GMT)
__ __ Silvia -:- Mili, and your point is?? NT -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:41:29 (GMT)
__ __ Steve -:- Yes you're right Mili -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:37:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Silvia/SB -:- good for u to know it didn't -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:31:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- Yes you're right Mili -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:45:21 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- An experience that showed reality -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:20:48 (GMT)
__ __ Steve -:- thanks Dave that resonates... nt -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 07:27:02 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- Life shaping beliefs from the East -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 11:05:43 (GMT)
__ __ Steve -:- How he twists things ,,,,, -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 07:29:38 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- The Nepalese Royal family (premies) murders -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 07:12:17 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- young bro will be king.Nepalese people freaked!(nt -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:52:53 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- Royal family (premies) murders -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:42:42 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- an uncle survived ..was out of town at time (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:22:11 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- So much for the myth of 'peace on earth' -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:53:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- By their fruits you shall know them -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:06:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- BTW Jethro (ot) -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:43:20 (GMT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- The Nepalese Royal family (premies) murders -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:25:17 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Hey Mel. -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:37:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Hey Mel. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 05:25:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey Mel. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 13:10:19 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- Mel, don't think that's what J-M was trying to say -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:15:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Mel, don't think that's what J-M was trying to say -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 05:13:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Mel, don't think that's what J-M was trying to say -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 15:45:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ silvia -:- What are you refering to? -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 16:59:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, Mel, it's a fair comment -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 05:24:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Hey, Mel, it's a fair comment -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 05:35:20 (GMT)
__ __ silvia -:- K drives SOME People nuts!!! -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:16:15 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- The Nepalese Royal family (premies) murders -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:13:21 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Far from it !! -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:51:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Yes, I was almost killed twice by my premie -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:22:59 (GMT)
__ Silvia -:- HIS K DRIVES SOME PEOPLE'S NUTS!!! -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 11:26:52 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- Silvia, we can't know what happened here -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:18:52 (GMT)

Marianne -:- EV's new facade web site-keep going! -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 07:11:19 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- Marianne, please post Pia's URL -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:37:08 (GMT)
__ __ Link to -:- Pia's URL -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:52:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Why -:- she wants our email address? -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 03:21:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Thanks (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:17:56 (GMT)

Sandy -:- Truth versus the cult of personality -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:06:19 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- Yes, Sandy -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:14:52 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- I LOVE your name, Mr. Mind -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:04:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- Yes, Jim -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:15:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Main point -- the name's funny -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:21:09 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Oh Mindy, you came and you took without giving -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:23:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Sandy -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:40:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- I got it Silvia, thanks for the heads-up. (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:41:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- Thanks for the advise but.. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:29:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Whoa there, Nellie -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:33:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ silvia -:- Really? 'I come in peace.'???? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:41:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Got it, sil. (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:43:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- Hey Bozo -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:40:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Bozo and Nellie are getting it on, so let's chat! -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:49:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- since I'm gullible, I'll try -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:13:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Big UP to ya -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:36:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- Big UP to ya/glad that's over -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:51:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Just came in from standing in the rain with my -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:56:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- Just came in from standing in the rain with my -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:04:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Your alias is OK with me -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:33:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- Thanks Katie -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:46:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- You're welcome - and thank you too. -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:14:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Test the pH of the rain, Sandy -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:00:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ silvia -:- Test the pH of the rain, Sandy -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:14:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Test the pH of the rain, Sandy -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:32:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Test the pH of the rain, Sandy -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:07:30 (GMT)

Michele Deradune -:- I received in e-mail a letter from an ex -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:58:49 (GMT)
__ Chuck Sprague -:- You are just too preachy, Michele... -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:08:02 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- CORRECTION! We WOULD of LEFFFFFFTTTTTT -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:19:19 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- I received in e-mail a letter from an ex -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:02:49 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- Just be normal -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:02:47 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Premie megalomania - acute observation, Bryn -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:33:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Speaking of ' talking shit' reminds me -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:11:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- GREAT story, Dermot, like life! n/t -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:37:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Funny story Dermot! (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:25:06 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Really funny insights Bryn :)) (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:10:23 (GMT)
__ freedomgirl -:- Speak for yourself, not others, -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:29:54 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- Admit it - you just like the attention! Bye! nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:53:46 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- I received in e-mail a letter from an ex -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:28:57 (GMT)
__ __ silvia -:- Wrong, sorry Helen. LOL Michele, my post is for U -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:34:25 (GMT)
__ __ Silvia Sommer -:- I received in e-mail a letter from an ex -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:32:43 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- Rawat would agya you not to do this-NT -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:19:21 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Please let us know... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:18:51 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- seriously.... -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:10:03 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- bye bye ( yippee no more crapsang satsang) (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:07:21 (GMT)

Joe -:- The Pia Website and the Continued EV Spin -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:04:31 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- Wha' happened to the hyperlink to Pia's site??? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:50:11 (GMT)
__ kev -:- The Pia Website and the Continued EV Spin -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:29:57 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Well spotted William Strait -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:39:35 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Why Pia's site is counterproductive -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:46:18 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Pia's site being censored already ? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:53:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Pia's site being censored already ? -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:08:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- I think you may be right. The Pics are gone. (nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:04:21 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- 'm himself is counterproductive...' :)) (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:57:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Just realised also -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:14:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Cancer can be created in a body by wrong thinking. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:29:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- can only sympathise with her re; her cancer (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:48:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Cancer can be created in a body by wrong thinking. -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:17:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Cancer is the sins of somebody being visited on -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:47:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Cancer is caused by tiny invisible bacteria and... -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:56:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- bacteria?. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 00:37:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Then why don't we all have cancer? -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:18:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Deborah -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 11:47:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ silvita -:- don't do it here -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 03:26:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- You missed Deborah's point -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 00:23:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- You are a total loser freak Sandy. -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:30:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- THAT'S DISGUSTING, SANDY! SHAME ON YOU!! -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:09:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- hey, guess what -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 11:49:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- You are wrong Mili, too often -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:20:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Come on, Silvia, that's too much -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:51:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ s -:- It is a theory -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:48:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Hold on a second, Jim -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:06:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What?? -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:39:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I think you're taking this the wrong way -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:56:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, Ger, it's as clear as day -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:26:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Let' s ask her -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:40:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I guess the conversation's over then -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 19:38:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- shameful propaganda and yes the conversation is -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 19:56:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And thank YOU for the thoughtful feedback! -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 20:05:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I'm kidding, I'm kidding, but I'm -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 20:30:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- gerry, check out boydgraves.com -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:10:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Brace yourself, Silvia -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:36:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Your argument is not with me, but with the truth -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 11:18:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- ARRRGGGHHHH!!!!! -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:18:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Your ignorance is normally harmless -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:55:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- 'And it wouldn't really interest anybody.... -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:25:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Sez you...and considering the source.... -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 10:19:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- THAT was a VERY dumb post, Sandy (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:04:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- As if your evaluation matters or has merit..... -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 11:06:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Your statement is false. -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:48:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- There is no blame on the sick person -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:07:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- We have less control than you are suggesting. -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:50:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- As we think so we are -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 10:28:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- This is one of the ugliest faces of piety -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 00:02:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- You are a lying sack of shit who twists words. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 10:36:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- It reminds me ... -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 01:02:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- G, your cognitive association between me and the -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 10:46:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- There is no blame ...it's just a sensitive issue.. -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:29:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Bobby's cancer story - if interested.... -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:04:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What's your point, Katie? -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:00:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- What's your point, JIM??? -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 11:01:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- My point is -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:27:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Katie, did you ever know a playground bully? -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 11:16:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- I think it's deeper than from just being a lawyer -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 11:22:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- And BTW -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:35:19 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Who's idea was it to exploit her cancer, I wonder -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:53:19 (GMT)
__ __ She was targetted -:- HIPOCRATS!!! the sympaty thing...NT -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:44:26 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- I tried to avoid that issue -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:29:29 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- It isn't about if he wore brown shoes with a blue -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:42:02 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Joe, please forward my above post to Strait? (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:44:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Sandy, you can email it on Pia's website. -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:27:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- I did not see that place but will look again -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:49:31 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Doesn't it make you want to throttle the lying -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:35:45 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- That has happened already, Dermot -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 09:23:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- That has happened already, Dermot -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:46:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- That has happened already, Dermot -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:56:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Ah ! Not really surprised, Nigel (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 11:48:37 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Excellent analysis Joe -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:19:32 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Wonderful commentary Joe;did you send it to Pia?nt -:- Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:16:54 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:13:57 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: from one extreme to the other - a trap for us all.
Message:
I would like to encourage everyone to get to know more about themselves and understand the experiences of loving a 'superior person' (or Alpha male, in biological terms) and the research into the brain and altered state experiences which is available on the net, one source is stated in the thread below (The Spiritual Personality. (The Structure and Function of Near-Death Experiences is another interesting one, but there are others).

Otherwise, it seems that from being premies, stuck in the cult of a living master and secret techniques of knowledge, we're just veering off to the other extreme - miragey's evil, we hate him, knowledge is useless (I had some great experiences with it) and the ashrams were terrible. Well, that's just reversed black and white thinking, it seems to me - we need to apply our minds to gain some insight into why we wanted a master, why people get experiences from meditating, why we couldn't see we were in a cult, and why others still in it don't want to hear anything that challenges their beliefs. It's therapeutic to slag off miragey and EV but I feel we can do better for ourselves by understanding. It helps the recovery process along and minimises the hurt, (which over an extended period of time can be damaging to the health!) We function best when we have a good sense of self-esteem, feel in control of our lives, and can exercise compassion towards ourselves and others for mistakes we make. (Except for miragey ignoring the child abuse thing - there's absolutely no excuse for that and I can't forgive it. ) I just don't want to damage my health holding negative states any longer than absolutely necessary.

I think there was another post along similar lines a week or so ago, but I think it might be good to re-examine the idea again.

Yours in understanding and embryonic reasoning...

Jane

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 00:23:31 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: yeah,the premie neurotic alpha female syndrome(nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 19:02:16 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: creativejani
Subject: from one extreme to the other - I hear you
Message:
Jane said:

I just don't want to damage my health holding negative states any longer than absolutely necessary.

That makes perfect sense to me. That is not to say that no one should be angry, or feel that there time was completey wasted. If you are angry, you're angry. If you feel it was all a waste, then that's what you feel. It's not good to pretend otherwise.

I like to think of anger as being like a grass fire; it burns hot and bright, and hopefuly, quickly. When it is over, the burnt ground is fertile soil for new growth to begin. However, if you keep throwing gasoline on the fire, the new growth can't begin.

I prefer to feel indifferent to Maharaji. I hate the things he did, I hate the things he's doing. I read stuff here and sometimes I hate him, too. But generally I don't feel a lot of PASSION about hating him, and I'm glad for that, because it just doesn't feel great as a constant state, and prevents me from enjoying my life now.

I'm not knocking anyone for being passionately angry. Letting that anger go can be really helpful, I think it's actually essential, to free yourself. I also think it's better if you can go through the anger, and eventually pour your passions into something more positive for yourself.

If you do that, you feel better, AND you can still criticise the urug, expose the fraud and the lies, prevent him from spreading his cult and deceptions. I really enjoy the scrutiny and exposing things. I just don't want to give M. my passion, I want to save that for something more worthy.

I would say if you go from one extreme to the other, but eventually find your way to middle, you get the best of all worlds.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:33:27 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Alpha male?
Message:
CJ,

You really think of Maharaji as an Alpha male? That's a bit much, don't you think. I suppose you can apply any train of thought to any circumstance and see similarities, but I wouldn't place too much stock in this theory. It's interesting but I think discretion should be shown when we observe similarities between how packs of animals and cults behave. Yeah, Maharaji is the Big Ape, no question about it, but where he differs from an alpha male is that nobody's going to say boo to him. In a real setting, alpha males are always being challenged to their authority. In a cult, nobody dares.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:07:59 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I was quoting from 'the Spiritual Personality'
Message:
'Now gurus (or masters or satgurus, sufus, tzaddiks, roshis...)often don't like to be 'defined' or 'labelled' or 'categorized', but there is a category that seems to invite them in. Its a term from primatology...Gurus are dominant or alpha individuals. Within their community, the guru is the boss. He...usually calls the shots. He disperses the donated resources (or not, in M's case)and if the tradition doesn't include celibacy, to be his romantic partner is a 'position' of some prestige. All other conditions being equal, the guru will be more successful at passing on his genetic material than the disciple. If you become a guru your self-esteem will automatically rise. You've become the alpha person.'

I think that's quite relevant and interesting, and seeing M in the context of a dominant individual in a group, needing that position for his sense of self-esteem, brings it all down to earth and makes what's happening more accessible to my thought processes. I think looking at things from a new standpoint is refreshing and less boring than going over the same ground all the time.

So there.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 01:33:50 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: I was quoting from 'the Spiritual Personality'
Message:
The point I'm trying to make is it's easy to get caught up in seeing things a certain way becasue of certain similarities, but it might not completely explain it. I understand the need to wrap my mind around things and put them in a box where I think they're understood, too. But the real challenge is in keeping the lid off until you're certain that a description really applies. Otherwise, pretty soon you'll find yourself defending your ideas against people who see the loopholes in your theories, and become a pain in your ass -- like me.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:50:02 (GMT)
From: So Jane,.......
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: are you seeking permission from the gang..........
Message:
......to act on this advice of yours? Or are you looking for validation from people like Jim? Jim's been trapped in this game for years now with no end in sight. How about you, got that much time to waste?
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 21:50:59 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: So Jane,.......
Subject: No, stupid. Just expressing my current
Message:
viewpoint, for what it's worth. I find understanding a constantly fascinating pursuit, not time-wasting at all. i don't really get your point, oh critical one.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:29:14 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: So Jane,.......
Subject: are you seeking permission from the gang..........
Message:
So anonymous,

Jane is using the forum for what it's so good for - working through the mental process of rejecting Maharaji as someone worthy of high regard. It's not an easy process, and and after 27 years, Jane here is seriously tackling the emotions she is feeling towards Maharaji, and trying to free herself properly - not just turn devotion into hatred. What do you have against that?

John.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:48:40 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Right on creativejani!
Message:
When we hate someone we give them power over us - power over our sleep, our appetites, our blood pressure, our health, and our happiness.

Our hatred and resentment does not hurt them at all. But it does hurt us by destroying our health, our looks, and our ability to relax and enjoy life. That's where the word dis-ease comes from.

Physicians are just beginning to discover that one of the biggest killers in the world is Grudgitis.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 03:02:46 (GMT)
From: SB/Silvia
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: To detest doesn't mean to hate: Face it
Message:
the guy is not likable...he's a sick greedy good fornothing plumpy liar asking for trouble and he's getting it. Right?

Clts suck!

Hi DD!! :)

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:08:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Simplistic and off the mark, Dog
Message:
Are you going to start telling us we're all suffering from high blood pressure and are miserable now? Hey, fella, you're the one with the 'family' pressure that can't let you speak out under your own name, not us.

Here's what Jane took issue with as an exaggerated, unnecessarily negative opinion:

... miragey's evil, we hate him, knowledge is useless (I had some great experiences with it) and the ashrams were terrible.

Well, I for one think that it's all true, even the fact that the ashrams were 'terrible' (allthough that's not to say I didn't enjoy myself at times regardless). M IS evil. K IS useless and, like I say, the ashrams were a terrible waste of a lot of young peoples' talents and ambitions. We were part of a standing army to bring Maharaji's message to the world. The message is bunk and serving in the army was too.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:33:22 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Simplistic and on the mark, Jim!
Message:
Forgiveness is also easier said than done. Jeeze, I'm no Mother Theresa when it come to forgiving others. But . . . .

Jesus said to 'Love your enemies, bless them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you.'

The Old Testament says, 'A soft answer turns away wrath,' and 'Vengeance is mine says the Lord.'

Shakespeare said, 'Heat not a furnace for your foe so hot that it do singe yourself.'

I think that this is pretty good advice. 'Live and let live,' suits me fine.

You can stay in your complicated world if you like.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 19:25:19 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Off the wall bullshit Dep
Message:
So are you saying that the dictators, torturers .... the Pol Pots , the Hitlers , Stalins should all be allowed to do their own thing .. live and let live.

I doubt you are Dep as you are a decent person. Many of us here feel as Jim. Maha abused us and hijacked our youthful sincerity to line his coffers. Sold us some basic techniques and made us believe that he was God in human form.

In my Journey entry which I am now ashamed of I suggested that people move on and not be bitter. I was actually not an ex when I wrote that but thought mistakenly that I was no longer involved in the cult aspect just because I didn't go to see him often and hated the organisation.

I am not bitter at present but have been through a whole gambit of emotions in the last 18 months - including hatred for maha.

It can be easy for those of us who were not deeply wounded to judge others who were and say this shallow stuff like forgive and live and let live..

My father hated the japanese for years because they kept his Dad in slave labour on the Burma railroad for 3 years or so and my Mother in law lost her whole family in concentration camps. What if I said to them , why don't you just let go and forgive. Sure in time they have but that is not an easy thing to do quickly.
Of course these are extremes I'm talking of here but some ex premies gave their inheritances and trust funds to Maha and have struggled financially ever since trying to raise families. We believed that he was sincerely offering a gift of peace to this world and now see that he is cynically lining him and his family's pockets. We believed that mahatmas were great souls above wanking over premie kids or fucking premie's girlfriends etc etc..
Please don't come on here and preach Jesus forgiveness philosophy to us as that could be all fabricated anyway.

I wonder how forgiving you would be if one of your loved ones were sexually assaulted or had all their money ripped off by a con man?

As I said , I think you are a good guy but I wish you'd think a little about the feasability of your philosophies when applied to other's situations.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:48:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Don't bite the hand that feeds you, Dog
Message:
You know, you crack me up. Here, guys like you and Sandy, the slow, slow learners in the group, if you will, are 'virtually' spoon-fed for months, no years, exactly the necessary medicine you need to begin to sit up and think straight. And what? You're going to keep lecturing us on how to have the right attitude, 'live and let live' as you say?

Face it, Dog, if we all followed YOUR example there'd be no ex nothing and you'd still be stuck for a lifetime. Or is that too 'complicated' for you?

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:31:26 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Jani, for what it's worth, my movement away from
Message:
Rev Rawat has been a roller-coaster ride. One minute I would hate him so much I wanted to sue the bastard. Then I would feel sorry for him and think that he too was brainwashed with Hindu mumbo-jumbo by his father and his culture. Then I would get angry and think that he is an adult and could have figured out that for himself and he knows it's BS but is using it as a money-making scam.

It really helped me to ridicule him: put Krishna crowns on my dogs' pics (Bow Wow, Worship and Adore! Woof!) and call him the silliest and most insulting names I could think of. Humor got him in proportion for me. Laughing at pompous fools cuts them down to size.

I now feel completely indifferent to him. He can go his way and I will go mine. There are still pangs of negative feelings towards him but, like you, I do not want to be consumed with them as I prefer to feel nice rather than nasty.

I think it may be just a matter of time. I don't know. Some exes who have been out longer than me and observed others' evolution on FV will be able to tell you if that is the case.

Now why don't you just hop on a plane and come and party with us tonight in San Francisco and chase all the blues away?

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:41:55 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Sf, eh? Now you're talking! If I had any money
Message:
I would, but of course, I don't (thanks to the plane I had to buy my guru a while back.) (joke)

I suppose I just get bored easily, I've always been more interested in the next great idea... It's not that i think we should forget what m's done (and is still doing) and I know how good it is to let off steam, but it's getting a bit predictable now, except for real news ( J-M's posts about the current French scene).

I thought other ex's might like to exercise their mental powers now it's not against the rules...

I thought the cancer had come back the other day and it made me think about what I wanted to do and how I wanted to feel in what could turn out to be my last year. I think I'm o.k now, it was just a slight panic, but it's one way of taking stock!

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:49:39 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: I enjoy you kicking around ideas
Message:
Talking about it from all angles helped me to get my equilibrium back until I realize I don't really give a shit about Rev Moonbeam. It is not a black and white issue and we'll probably be talking about it for a while yet.

I'm sorry about your scare. I just had dinner last night with a friend who had the same cancer as you and has just finished her chemo. She will have to be monitored every few months for five years. We decided to eat, drink and be merry and not think about it anymore.

Now I must go and get my nails, hair and facial done for the Baby Throwing Festival tonight.

Lots of love and good thoughts to you.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:51:42 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: To Creativejani
Message:
Or if you don't meet us for dinner tonight, perhaps I'll hop on a plane and come see you (e-mail me darlingwave@aol.com).

I agree with your posts.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:08:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: With all due respect, that's not logical, Jane
Message:
Just because we vilify Maharaji it does not mean that we don't fully appreciate our own reasons, weaknesses, blindspots, 'needs', etc. in getting sucked in by him. Those aren't at all mutually exclusive.

The fact is Maharaji really is despicable. He really did waste much of our lives by sending us off on a decades-long wild goose chase. It's also a fact that we were the fools that fell for his tricks. But, the second fact doesn't weaken the first. Not at all.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:23:03 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I didn't say it did. I just meant try another
Message:
viewpoint to enhance understanding now. We're not the only ones who have been involved in cults, and the whole issue of spirituality and 'altered states' can be very demoralising if you think you've lost something special - that m's robbed you of the special 'feeling' there was around him (for me at least.) I'm studying psychology and I was suggesting we have other options for our own growth, too. Another approach can be very enlightening and enabling, the more the better IMO. I'm interested in new ideas and I think some of the people on this forum are too. I'm not trying to write the EPO bible or anything - jeeeez.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 02:41:37 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: You do great!
Message:
I love your posts. The major reason i come to this website is the common history, the intelligence of people like you and to gain more understanding about some suppresed stuff. It is our freedom as freed people to think not just black or white, but in color!!
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:59:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: What exactly are we talking about?
Message:
Sorry, Jane, I'm confused. What kind of music do you play, by the way?
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:55:03 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Looks like EV's ready to sue Combat/libel
Message:
According to Combat's lawyer, they're ready to go for it.

We don't know yet for what precise motive, I'll tell you when it will be official.

This is suicidal for EV IMO, as Combat has well documented everything that's printed.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:30:46 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The Captain's thrown a fit.
Message:
Bonjour Jean-Michel,

First, let me congratulate and thank you on the amazing stuff you've been adding to the website. It really is becoming an awesome indictment of the Captain and his cult. The stuff in the French press has been great.

I think the last thing the cult want is a court case. In the UK, they threatened a couple of years ago, but never followed through. There are so many intelligent, articulate people who have left, and are willing to speak out, and the cult's case, as is shown everytime they drag it out into daylight, where the world doesn't revolve around the feet of the Perfect Master, it crumbles and blows away.

Imagine the publicity that would surround a case. Also, imagine the immense cost to the cult, who are in financial trouble at the moment. They learned what a waste of money it is trying to apply agya to the legal system when they tried to close down our websites last year.

The Captain always tries to silence his critics. He never tries to answer any of their criticism. He can't handle it.

He absolutely hates any negative publicity in the press. Apparently when there was a big article about him in the local press in Queensland, a couple of years ago, he threw a fit and said he'd never come back.

So I'm sure his reaction to the current stuff in the press in France has been similar. He can't handle criticism of any sort. This is one of his problems.

I really can't imagine them ever going to court, but if they were really that stupid, they'd be laughed out of the place. Especially in France, of all places, where there is a strong political will to close cults down right now.

Mind you, never underestimate the stupidity of the cult. You never know what stunt they might pull.

Have you heard about the new 'propagation video' Jean-Michel? It's hosted by Michael Nouri- and tells premies how to propagate. It sounds like a right joke. Four important things to remember- Number One- don't tell lies. Real brain-dead stuff.

Take care

A bientot,

Anth le beachbum

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:35:34 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Michael Nouri LOOKS like HELL
Message:
I saw a documentary and he seems to be dead. No life in his eyes. Premies ARE dead emotionally. Poor premies.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 00:06:23 (GMT)
From: suchabananer
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: sad news).MN was friend.maybe future ex-premie!(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:16:25 (GMT)
From: sil
Email: None
To: suchabananer
Subject: sad news).MN was friend.maybe future ex-premie!(nt
Message:
Have you sent some material from here to him? Poor guy. I rememeber him from early. :( Hi such! no need to answer.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:37:29 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: that will be good for a laugh ;-))NT
Message:
rsg
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:46:03 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: not that much actually
Message:
I guess me and some other persons have been quite reluctant to expose some facts involving premies, because that was not the point.

But it's likely we'll have to do so now, and some not so nice stories will become public .... and quite some people will be hurt in the process.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 00:17:54 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: not that much actually
Message:
I take your point Jean-Michel, M should be the real enemy here and not his premies. But I agree with a lot of other here that they would be really stupid to take on this case. For one thing they know that the facts of the past speak for themselves. As much as M and E.V would like to do it; you can not change history.

IMO they have far too much to lose if they choose to take this to court.

Keep up the good work,
Love kev.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:22:10 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: My guess on this
Message:
is that EV will not really pursue this. Wouldn't fat boy be exposed to deposition? I think they are just doing this to appear to be taking the offensive. Word of this must have spread thru the Rawatian grapevine by now. So, by getting this potential law suit out on the grapevine, they can control the cult thinking and then let an actual law suit fade away into the sunset.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:46:42 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: M distancing from EV
Message:
As has been pointed out here recently, M has been essentially distancing himself from EV and will most likely let the loyal Industrial Strength Church Ladies fall on their swords. In the same way cutting loose of the ashrams supposedly distanced M from all those Hindu based confused concepts, he can eject EV at 30,000 feet and fly into the sunset of satellite darshan, DVD auto-K and regular credit card 'appreciation'. After all, as Michele, Pat C and Charles as recent EV participants have pointed out - practicing premies tend to barely tolerate the uptightness of EV as a neccesary evil so they would praise M for disbanding it. Therefore, I'm not so sure he would be part of a lawsuit - anyone else have a legal opinion here? Is M legally connected to EV?
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:33:39 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Is the J-M [..] post connected, do you think?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:44:09 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: It could be
Message:
There is an old sports saying that may apply here--'the best defense is a good offense'.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:58:04 (GMT)
From: mr.bojangles
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Despotic Dictators.
Message:
They always try to destroy their critics and mug the media, he is well on his way to becoming the classic bunker mentality type, he can only cushion so much with cash, his bloated ego is crying out for world recognition as God, and like so many of his previous companions,he will end up being strung up from a rope made by his own unrealistic and impossible decisions as soon as he starts to panic over the critics, he won't be able to cope with any more of the backlash, like Combat for long, without heading down underground. He hasn't got very far with control outside of a tight circle of the mindless ones he has around him, in his 'fortress of fear', Bo.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 10:40:28 (GMT)
From: Steve Mulley
Email: mulley@oninet.pt
To: Everyone
Subject: Life shaping beliefs from the East
Message:
Hi everyone,

I've been examining my changing belief patterns since the time I exited the cult. I don't entirely hold Mahaha responsible for all my spiritual conceptions. He in fact just reinforced much of the philosophy of the Eastern based books I'd read and the acid and mushroom experiences I've had.

THE WORLD is an illusion, tainted with negative mind energy. There is beauty to be found in the world but only through higher consciousness and awareness. One must remain detached from THE WORLD. THIS WORLD is everything , absolutely everything visible outside of the inner truth . THE MIND is a negative force which causes attachment to THE WORLD. Through spiritual ignorance we fall into THE WORLD.My thoughts are attached to the world and reinforce the illusion- therefore I should ignore most of my thoughts and only give creedance to those thoughts which are directed towards God , self realisation, devotion.

CHIT -CHAT (or normal social interaction of a light nature) is a distraction from TRUTH and leads to a loss of centredness , definitely not recommended.

Having to work and earn my living is a distraction from the TRUTH. Maha suggested that the reason to work is to go to programs and support his work. College , books are a waste of time as for the TRUE KNOWLEDGE you don't need to go to college.

THE WORLD I live in hence becomes inimical to me. Division is created. There is of course something called the spiritual world or Maha's world which is totally different and full of Light and Love.

The people in THIS WORLD are mostly lost in falsehood and are secretly suffering from not knowing REALITY , even if they appear to be content and happy they're not really ( how can they be when they're in ignorance of TRUTH) They are best avoided as they tend to be polluting for the seeker of enlightenment.I should be in the WORLD but not of it, aloof and detached.Oh yes the poor fools are in darkness having no idea where true contentment lies. They are obsessed with transitory trivia, like careers , making money, family, cars and other toys. TUT TUT.

True love can only be for god and GURU. All other love is conditional , only ONE LOVE is pure and unconditional - the rest transitory and futile.

Nature is to be given some credence but only those parts of it which are good - blue ocean, blue sky, flowers , lakes in summer,birds, sunsets etc........this good stuff enables us to be grateful to the creator........Humans, cockroaches ,mosquitos, ticks , hurricanes and sewer rats ..well they are not given a mention except as something abhorrent..maybe they're part of the dark side ?

Parents are usually lost souls who will attempt to dissuade me from seeking TRUTH and lead me into those boring worldly concerns like careers, pension plans and providing grandchildren for them to coo over and spoil rotten.They are to be despised and avoided except when you need a loan.

Children are a major distraction for a true seeker . They demand too much attention and energy thus depriving the seeker of meditation time.They also are expensive and divert resources away from the planetary mission, much harder to afford to go to programs with them around.

THE TRUTH is virtually impossible for an ordinary person to attain , therefore one must find an enlightened teacher who will guide you through the illusion (MAYA) to the eternal goal (whatever the fuck that is)THe teacher/master / guru is the most important person in my life NUMERO UNO. Above, way above family friends ,kids, relationships etc..THE MASTER can lead me from the unreal to the real from darkness to light blah blah.

Is it surprising that I spent much of my life broke and living in below standard housing? I found motivation to achieve financial security impossible. I rejected my parents true love for me ; and my children were a nuisance when they were young. I couldn't participate in an ordinary conversation .... Had a lack of self esteem masked by an air of spiritual superiority.

I found little to enjoy in life , I was a stranger in a strange land....couldn't commit to a relationship because I might get lost in it...I had guilt about enjoying sex, it was a lower pleasure etc etc.. Oh boy !!!

Did I find enlightenment ? Don't think so . Become a loving person ? Nope. Did I get high on occasion ? Yes , definitely but so what. Do I know that there's a God for sure ? NO. Am I more fulfilled and happy than others who didn't have a guru ? NO

Now I am freeing myself from all that crap . I feel more real , more empowered , more tolerant , I love my family and appreciate my friends, Money is important and flows better . It was my fear and trepidation that kept me there in those beliefs.

Life is better now , more interesting and I find satisfaction in things I thought were boring . I'm in touch with my heart more.. yes more premies ! I feel more intensely . My brain is sharper.. I love thinking.

Someone who never got nollij said to me once that they'd been in their mind their whole life and highly recommended it !!!

I'm no longer a braindead sucker in a cult..

BUT IT'S BEEN ONE HELL OF A MAJOR DEPROGRAMMING and painful at times. It seems to get easier... time heals

Sorry it's been such a long post,

~STEVE MULLEY

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 16:51:48 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Steve Mulley
Subject: Well Said That Man! Good post. nt
Message:
vb
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:57:55 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Steve Mulley
Subject: that's ok.sucha good post! haha.Peace + lentils(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:31:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Mulley
Subject: A really well-said, important post, Steve
Message:
Steve,

That's a truly well-expressed post. You said it all. Indeed, because you said it all I can't think of anything to add. Soooooo, as a gift to you, I thought I'd give you the pornolized version. Think of it as a gift or something. [Seriously, I really loved your post. This is just fucking around]:

Hi everyone,
I've been unclefucking my spanking belief ballbusts since the sex fighting time I cuntlicked the smacking cult. I don't entirely hold Mahaha responsible for all my spiritual cocksucks. He in fact just jerked much of the plowing philosophy of the assfucking Eastern sex fighted cocksucks I'd read and the sucking acid and mushroom smacks I've had.

THE WORLD is an illusion, fucked with negative mind energy. There is beauty to be found in the blowing world but only through higher consciousness and wanks. One must remain sex fighted from THE WORLD. THIS WORLD is smacking , absolutely smooching visible outside of the cuntlicking inner truth . THE MIND is a motherfucking negative force which cuntlicks attachment to THE WORLD. Through spiritual ignorance we fall into THE WORLD.My browns are deep throated to the screwing world and reinforce the cocksucking illusion- therefore I should ignore most of my blows and only give creedance to those motherfucks which are thrusted wad pulls God , self realisation, devotion.

CHIT -CHAT (or normal social interaction of a muff sniffing light nature) is a spewing distraction from TRUTH and fingers to a squirting smacks of deep throats , definitely not wanked.

Wad pulling to work and earn my spewing is a deep throating distraction from the muff sniffing TRUTH. Maha unclefucked that the thrusting reason to work is to go to wad pulls and support his work. College , dripps are a ballbusting waste of time as for the pecking TRUE KNOWLEDGE you don't need to go to college.

THE WORLD I live in hence smoochs inimical to me. Division is gangbanged. There is of course fistfucking screwed the browning spiritual world or Maha's world which is totally different and full of Light and Love.

The asslicking people in THIS WORLD are mostly lost in falsehood and are secretly wad pulling from not wad pulling REALITY , even if they appear to be content and happy they're not really ( how can they be when they're in ignorance of TRUTH) They are best deep throated as they tend to be cuntlicking for the cuntlicking seeker of enlightenment.I should be in the licking WORLD but not of it, aloof and dripped.Oh yes the fucking poor shafts are in deep throats plowing no idea where true contentment smacks. They are browned with transitory trivia, like fingers , motherfucking money, family, wad pulls and other spews. TUT TUT.

True love can only be for god and GURU. All other love is conditional , only ONE LOVE is pure and unconditional - the shafting rest transitory and futile.

Nature is to be given some credence but only those sucks of it which are good - blue ocean, blue sky, fistfucks , pecks in summer,deep throats, gangbangs etc........blows good stuff fucks us to be grateful to the wad pulling creator........Wad pulls, licks ,blows, sex fights , licks and sewer fistfucks ..well they are not given a motherfucking mention except as gangbanging abhorrent..maybe they're part of the plowing dark side ?

Deep throats are usually lost spews who will attempt to dissuade me from wad pulling TRUTH and lead me into those thrusting worldly asslicks like blows, pension sex fights and spanking grandchildren for them to coo over and spoil rotten.They are to be screwed and raunched except when you need a titty fucking loan.

Children are a asslicking major distraction for a raunching true seeker . They demand too much attention and energy smoochs motherfucking the raunching seeker of meditation time.They also are expensive and divert spews away from the deep throating planetary mission, much harder to afford to go to pecks with them around.

THE TRUTH is virtually impossible for an ordinary person to attain , therefore one must find an dripped teacher who will guide you through the fucking illusion (MAYA) to the smooching eternal goal (whatever the browning fuck that is)THe teacher/master / guru is the deep throating most important person in my life NUMERO UNO. Above, way above family smacks ,asslicks, relationships etc..THE MASTER can lead me from the dripping unreal to the dripping real from dripps to light blah blah.

Is it cuntlicking that I spent much of my life broke and cocksucking in below standard wanking? I found motivation to achieve financial security impossible. I entered my sex fights true love for me ; and my children were a fingerfucking nuisance when they were young. I couldn't participate in an ordinary conversation .... Had a cuntlicking lack of self esteem licked by an air of spiritual superiority.

I found little to enjoy in life , I was a assfucking stranger in a spewing strange land....couldn't commit to a cuntlapping relationship because I might get lost in it...I had guilt about deep throating sex, it was a licking lower pleasure etc etc.. Oh boy !!!

Did I find enlightenment ? Don't think so . Become a wad pulling dripping person ? Nope. Did I get high on occasion ? Yes , definitely but so what. Do I know that there's a browning God for sure ? NO. Am I more blowed and happy than thrusts who didn't have a smacking guru ? NO

Now I am unclefucking myself from all that crap . I feel more real , more pecked , more tolerant , I love my family and appreciate my wad pulls, Money is important and wanks better . It was my fear and trepidation that kept me there in those pecks.

Life is better now , more cuntlicking and I find satisfaction in fingers I thought were ballbusting . I'm in touch with my heart more.. yes more spews ! I feel more intensely . My brain is sharper.. I love deep throating.

Someone who never got nollij said to me once that they'd been in their mind their whole life and highly felched it !!!

I'm no longer a smacking braindead sucker in a fingerfucking cult..

BUT IT'S BEEN ONE HELL OF A fucking MAJOR DEPROGRAMMING and painful at fingers. It pecks to get easier... time squirts

Sorry it's been such a banging long post,

~STEVE MULLE

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:12:43 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Steve Mulley
Subject: Try this article on The Spiritual Personality, it
Message:
has helped me understand alot about myself and miragey's need for/to be a 'guru'. Written by Todd Murphy, who's a psychologist investigating the areas of the brain that deal with spritual experiences, and the way it shapes our beliefs and personality traits. He's devised a set of magnetic signals that can induce all sorts of altered states, and the areas of the brain responsible also deal with a person's sense of self, i.e. self worth and feeling of being an independant person. These are all areas pertinent to anyone who gets involved with a Perfect Master, and who practises meditation. It's highly recommended for a scientific and Western understanding of what we've all been through. The Spiritual Personality
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:42:41 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: forum Administrator
Subject: link www.jps.net/brainsci/traits.htm didn't
Message:
embed - did I do it wrong? I thought I followed the instructions
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:43:12 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Steve Mulley
Subject: Life shaping beliefs from the East
Message:
Do you remember the famous Shri Hans quote 'He who is impartial can have devotion'?
I know that meant for many premies tha having an opinion on virtually anything was 'mind'. That's why premies can't have a real conversation about anything except 'that experience'.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:17:41 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Steve Mulley
Subject: thank you for this post
Message:
This is exactly how I feel about it. In the end we do have to take responsability for our part in this crazy dance. I am so happy that I got children when I was out of the cult!
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:22:04 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Steve Mulley
Subject: Life shaping beliefs from the East
Message:
Why do you think that this way of thinking is particular to the 'East' only?

The whole idea of monasteries, and becoming a monk, is so that you can leave the complications and worries of the world behind and devote yourself exclusively to the contemplation of God. Catholic nuns actually take vows of entering into a 'marriage with Christ', for ****'s sake.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:41:29 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili, and your point is?? NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:37:24 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Yes you're right Mili
Message:
It is traditional in Western religion but was not Western religion formed in the East? In fact what is Western religious tradition? Ok it came from the middle East then.

My point is that all that religious crap didn't do anything for my life wherever it came from.

Steve M

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:31:39 (GMT)
From: Silvia/SB
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: good for u to know it didn't
Message:
and for him to try to take credit for our OWN cultivation with the grace crap, I said: I have my own GRACE, thanks anyway.

Real love is the only think taht makes REAL sense, the rest is always changing, as is suppossed to!!

He thinks he invented a new formula or something. What a loser!!

No. I don't agree that a person needs a master, not all. At this time of age we have all the information available to do it by ourselves, if we ask the right questions: Cultivating ourselves and finding our REAL being is true libeartion of illussion. State of being is pure, fun and spontaneous, and never static! Always flowing, growing, knowing more. Nobody can tell us how to do it.

Each person has to do it on their own. Realax, meditate, calm the mind but don't believe that meditations techniques are a magic formula because they aren't. Just another false group of beliefs, Steve? You talked like him. Scary. We don't need masters. We have to master our life, ourselves!! Claim the power: Is all yours!

Love 2 u!

silvia

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:45:21 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Yes you're right Mili
Message:
Also, the whole idea of ‘sin’ appears to be the equivalent of the concept of ‘karma’. But, I don’t think the Hindus or Buddhists ever went so far as to brand everyone with an ‘original sin’ though. We’ve solely got our own Church Fathers and Bible Bangers to thank for that one.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:20:48 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Steve Mulley
Subject: An experience that showed reality
Message:
Perhaps this is the time to mention this but I know of someone who had a real near death experience. He was in hospital very ill and he watched his body below himself as he left it and went off to a place full of corridors of light and nice, cool people.

He liked this new place he was in and someone introduced themself to him and said that if he wanted to, he could continue and stay in this place but if he did, he would not experience bringing up his children (who were obviously still here in our world).

He decided to come back here and returned to his ailing body which was eventually healed. The way this experience touched me was that it showed me that contrary to the ridiculous 'teachings' of the East, the world and our relationships in it are of prime importance and not something to shy away from. The entity that the man saw in this other world considered the relationship the man had with his children to be of prime importance.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 07:27:02 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: thanks Dave that resonates... nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 11:05:43 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Steve Mulley
Subject: Life shaping beliefs from the East
Message:
Hi Steve!

Gawd! Jeez! That was a great expose of the somewhat-covert-mostly-overt belief system we bought into. I especially loved 'lack of self esteem covered up by an air of spiritual superiority.'

The thing that amazes me, having been back in the 'world' for ages and ages, is that the current 'spin' covers over the real belief behind the screen and replaces it with ideas like 'enjoying life.' Enjoying LIFE?' As you said, it's really difficult to enjoy life when you are programmed to think that the only enjoyment is 'within inside,' and the only love is for the guru, etc. etc. I know it is really meant to imply that what you are enjoying is the life force itself, but it's a complete reversal, like the now-infamous wild horses quote of recent times. Did you hear that one? Something about we are like horses who have been tamed and broken, and MJ sets us free.

What a load of crap! My cat and husband have appeared to remind me to go back to bed, now that I've had my 3 a.m. post.

much love, Katie

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 07:29:38 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: How he twists things ,,,,,
Message:
Ridiculous ! Premies free ! HA HA HO HUM.

Wish you radiant health m' dear.
Love Steve

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 07:12:17 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Nepalese Royal family (premies) murders
Message:
Did you hear the news ?

From different source I heard that the Nepalese Royal family had several members who are m's premies.

Another place where peace has been established I guess !!

Furthermore: it's very likely that these people were linked to Sampuranand's businesses .....

One more place where Mr Rawat will not go anymore !!

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:52:53 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: young bro will be king.Nepalese people freaked!(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:42:42 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Royal family (premies) murders
Message:
Since there is no family survivor nobody will probably be able to analyze the true motives.
The possible link with 'knowledge' and rawat:
Generally royalty gets a very thourough education about traditions, their role in public, behaving in a noble manner etc.
Not very unlike the education rawat himself must have had. (partial, because he was a drop-out).
People like that would do anything to avoid a scandal.
Two elements erode this:
The fast introduction of the 'coca cola culture'.
Knowledge, which slowly detatches a person from the direct cause-effect relation necessary for learning. the 'happiness is not a consequence' attitude makes a person less moral and more impulsive.
It is just like drinking and driving, the driver is not a completely different person, but enough out of it to be irresponsable, and more a danger to accidents.
(the scandals in the british royal family are more due to the fact of the rapid changing culture I think, Want a coke?)
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:22:11 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: an uncle survived ..was out of town at time (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:53:47 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: So much for the myth of 'peace on earth'
Message:
There was a time when I used to think that when the 'mighty' persons - persons in power in the different countries, politicians - will have k, when they'll know about m, that will be the beginniong of an era of peace.

So much for the dream, whatever the reasons are. Even kings and royal families can get to that point, k or no k, friend of m or not.

What's the use of k by the way ?

Not good for anything I guess, beside providing the Rawat family an obscene lifestyle.

What an irony.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:06:37 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: By their fruits you shall know them
Message:
Maharaji used to quote that. So it's strange that premies, whether they be kings, successful writers, doctors etc never seem to mention him in their cvs writings ..... except Tim Galloway of course.

So how are the people of 'this world' going to see 'the fruits'?

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:43:20 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: BTW Jethro (ot)
Message:
That's terrible, horrendous news from Tel Aviv. I feel so sorry for all those teenagers.

Like you ..don't wanna get into a mid-east discussion again ( once was enough) so this is my one and only post on the matter.Period.

Thought I'd mention it in this thread as it seems about the most appropriate one ....and did'nt want to start a new thread.

I think it's time for Arafat ( whatever the political rights and wrongs ) to at least TRY to rein in those bloodthirsty fanatics. Nothing can excuse such wholesale murderous slaughter.I don't think he's even trying yet.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:25:17 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The Nepalese Royal family (premies) murders
Message:
JM

As I understand it, the Crown Prince killed members of his family because he did not want to be pressured into an arranged marriage. Obviously I don't condone his actions, but I don't think that this tragedy should be used as a 'guilt by association' tactic with an implied link to Maharaji.

But I guess I'm not surprised that this association should be milked for all it's worth for EPO 'political' benefit

Mel

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:37:49 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Hey Mel.
Message:
Hi there.

You sound like you've read my old friend Pia's site, and are convinced we're all a bunch of hate-filled liars.

You never used to be like that Mel. I think you're reading something into J-M's post that isn't there.

Anyway, how are things hanging with you and the cult nowadays? Thought of joining the Escape Committee yet?

Anth, back home in Blighty, dancing to a string of pearls and in the mood.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 05:25:54 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hey Mel.
Message:
Hi AJW

You sound like you've read my old friend Pia's site, and are convinced we're all a bunch of hate-filled liars.....You never used to be like that Mel

Come on, Anth, you know me better than that, trust your earlier instinct.

I think you're reading something into J-M's post that isn't there.

Read my response to Katie a post or two down, and see if there isn't a valid point there.

Things are OK with me (thanks for asking), and although I don't hang around 'the cult' too much, I've no particular desire to 'escape' Knowledge.

Mel

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 13:10:19 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Hey Mel.
Message:
Hi Mel,

I read your post and take your point.

As you don't show up much when I'm around, I'll take the opportunity of poking your bark, to see if any dead bits drop of, if you don't mind my analogy.

Your final sentence tells me you've about had it with the cult, but still practice and value 'knowledge'. How are you with the Captain?

Plenty of exes still do the techniques. I don't. I've noticed that 'Knowledge' only worked if I held a certain set of beliefs about what I was experiencing.

I believed it was my life source within.

It was my connection of the divine.

It was my soul.

You know the stuff.

Now I don't believe this stuff, I still do the odd technique now and again, generally have more vivid experiences of 'light' etc, than I did when I was a believer, but no longer hold the experience in awe, or even feel I get much from it.

So- do you think you can seperate belief from experience on this one Mel?

Do the light technique and tell me what you see.

Anth, sunny sunday afternoon by the sea.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:15:55 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, don't think that's what J-M was trying to say
Message:
I read his post and his answers and he doesn't imply (at least to ME) that the murders were committed BECAUSE the people involved were premies at all. I don't think anyone should infer this connection (although apparently - and unfortunately - some people already have). In other words, the subset of people in the world who commit murder includes some people who have received Knowledge - that's it. Not an indictment - just the truth.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 05:13:36 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Mel, don't think that's what J-M was trying to say
Message:
Hi Katie

I disagree with your assessment Of JM's post. Although JM did not say that there was a direct link between the deaths BECAUSE they were premies, mentioning the deaths in a post with a snide reference to 'peace on earth' could clearly imply it. This implication was recognised and vigourously endorsed in Silvia's post.

On you say so,though Katie, I'll give JM the benefit of the doubt and assume (with difficulty!) that his motives aren't what they appear to be!

In other words, the subset of people in the world who commit murder includes some people who have received Knowledge - that's it. Not an indictment - just the truth.

No argument from me on that

Mel

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 15:45:10 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, don't think that's what J-M was trying to say
Message:
Hi Mel -
Thanks for giving J-M the benefit of the doubt - he deserves it. He knows a lot and is quite concerned about the premie power structure in India (including, unfortunately, some horrifying things), and he is a fair person - even to premies! (believe it or not). If you read his post below 'Far From It', he echoes my assessment of his statements.

I don't agree with much of what Silvia said in her posts, but already told her that.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 16:59:45 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: What are you refering to?
Message:
last day here, have lots to do.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 05:24:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Hey, Mel, it's a fair comment
Message:
Mel,

You have to give something on this. Maharaji did pretend that he was the saviour of mankind, destined to bring peace to the world. So when even his own premies start murdering people, yeah, at a certain point the question's ripe: what was that you said, Maharaji?

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 05:35:20 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, Mel, it's a fair comment
Message:
Jim

A long while since we've had any discussion, how are you?

Of course your response indicates that YOU are trying milk the tragedy for maximum political advantage for EPO benefit. Tell me why I'm not surprised, Jim.

Mel

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:16:15 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: K drives SOME People nuts!!!
Message:
The more you surrender to him the crazier you get. Mel, what are you doing here?

I don't like your faulty reasoning, full of REAL fallacies.

Don't answer, plase.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:13:21 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: The Nepalese Royal family (premies) murders
Message:
Hi Melbourne

My post a couple of threads down .....re the motives for the murders. I got that from CNN....and they said they got it from an anonymous court official. Listening to the BBC later ...well they were more circumspect ....and just reported that the incident was not a coup more a disturbance within the Palace. They weren't as certain as CNN.

I'm not sure what the latest reports are.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:51:41 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Far from it !!
Message:
I just mentioned (maybe with too much irony) that this family in known in premiedom to be devoted to Rawat.

Murders also happen in premiedom.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:22:59 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Yes, I was almost killed twice by my premie
Message:
husband. The funny thing is he was such a nice person before becoming a devotee. Is no coincidence on that.

K as taught by gurushi makes many people irrational and their lives become a mess.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 11:26:52 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: HIS K DRIVES SOME PEOPLE'S NUTS!!!
Message:
why some don't understand it JM?
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:18:52 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Silvia, we can't know what happened here
Message:
And if it has anything to do with the fact that some of the people involved had received knowledge and/or were followers of Maharaji.

I have seen some people get real crazy after receiving knowledge but have also seen the same thing happen to people who never heard of Maharaji.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 07:11:19 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: pia
Subject: EV's new facade web site-keep going!
Message:
I am delighted to read Pia's new web site! You see, the difference between the EPO site and the PIA/EV site, is that we speak the truth on the EPO site. What is so fascinating about Pia's site, according to the comments by William Strait, is that those who criticize Maharaji are the equivalent of McCarthyism in the US.

Geez, who was it that shut down the web sites which had criticisms of Maharaji across the globe? Wasn't that the lawyers for Maharaji and Elan Vital? Doesn't that smack of McCarthyism much more than our criticisms?

Does Maharaji really want to argue that his teachings are protected by human rights? Go ahead. Try to equate his work with human rights. Many of us would be delighted to dispute such an assertion.

Pia's website is nothing more than an Elan Vital public relations site. We should find out who supports it.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:37:08 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne, please post Pia's URL
Message:
I cannot seem top find it here as I once did. Either I forgot where it was or it was removed. Thanks.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 12:52:21 (GMT)
From: Link to
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Pia's URL
Message:
it-aint-so.org
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 03:21:09 (GMT)
From: Why
Email: None
To: Link to NOTHING
Subject: she wants our email address?
Message:
if you don't put it there you cannot post. THAT IS plastic FREEDOM.

s

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:17:56 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Link to
Subject: Thanks (nt)
Message:
asgjerg
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:06:19 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Truth versus the cult of personality
Message:
I always believed that it doesn't matter who said it if it's true, still do. There alot of truth being said here on this site and it's being dismissed elsewhere in a very adolescent way based on who said it and what their standing is in Maharaji's world. That's not the standard for truth, if it involves covering up and protecting pedophiles, covering up and protecting lascivious holy men, covering up and protecting perpetrators of vehicular manslaughter, covering up and protecting of perpetrators of attempted murder with a hammer, covering up and protecting egomaniacal, sadistic instructors, and many other perpetrators of many other inhumane acts.

I believe there was a Jesus Christ, contrary to the beliefs of many assembled here. I cannot accept that He went through everything He went through, and the prior and subsequent holy men who came to assist humanity to raise human consciousness, so Maharaji could do all the things he has done that have hurt his own devotees and his assistants can get away with so many bullshit trips including child abuse and attempted murder.

Have a great weekend!

Sandy Samadi

PS I could die before Pia. A bus, a short circuit in this old apartment, lightning, who knows? And I think I am spending my time wisely, too.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:14:52 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Yes, Sandy
Message:
...because it's Friday, I'll let you slide on the Jesus stuff.

Besides my current issue is with the F.A. what accused me of posting of another alias and threatened to block me if I did it again.

Unless I am exonerated, I may have to take legal advise from Rawat's sheisters.

Mr. Mind( a former member of a major Jesus cult)

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:04:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: I LOVE your name, Mr. Mind
Message:
I mean, as far as aliases go. You don't really need one though, don't forget. But, in case you think you do, Mr. Mind is great.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:15:47 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, Jim
Message:
I've read in the archives how you feel about aliases and don't necessarily disagree. However, I at least believe I have a valid reason and am certain it has nothing to do with fear.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:21:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Main point -- the name's funny
Message:
Sandy's crap about how your name is 'fear-mongering' is only a reflection of how far he has to go, that's all.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:23:48 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Oh Mindy, you came and you took without giving
Message:
and I sent you awaaaay
Oh Mindy......

Look, my friend,

Just use your real name or pick one that is not so fucking explosive, and concentrate on the MESSAGE and not yourself.

Love from your brother,

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:40:24 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy
Message:
why is so important TO you that he peeks another name? He picked that and is his right.

I read other posts of you raging about the same. Globber loves to see US fighting...go ahead...make his day...

Love 2 u,

silvia

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:41:44 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: I got it Silvia, thanks for the heads-up. (nt)
Message:
sagearg;
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:29:32 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Thanks for the advise but..
Message:
..your misinterpretation of the name tells me much about you. But, there's no point in trying to 'splain to you, cuz as we all know, we each believe what we think

Now, go jerk off a few times and relax

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:33:14 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Whoa there, Nellie
Message:
Let's back up a bit....

I don't need that sort of relaxation a this time, for starters.
And I don't really understand your nomenclature, so please 'splain me so we don't keep having these run-ins. I come in peace.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:41:47 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Really? 'I come in peace.'????
Message:
common, you picked on him first, in innactive. Cut it out!
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:43:07 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: Got it, sil. (nt)
Message:
aggrdzfgsthe
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:40:07 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Hey Bozo
Message:
I already tried that(coming in peace) and was rebuffed. I've just decided we exist in completely different perspectives- both warped by our interpretations of our life experiences and by our different perspectives on da fat boy, of course.

I don't think you are a bad person

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:49:15 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Bozo and Nellie are getting it on, so let's chat!
Message:
Hi Mr. Mind,

It's a beautiful evening in NJ. The usual brown haze has turned a sultry blue gray green in the sunset as more acid rain that nobody reports is about to soak us this weekend.

I stand (or sit rather) corrected, and am open to discourse with you in a most humane and civilized manner. We both have bigger fish to fry than to pick nits off each other about our names, etc.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:13:31 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: since I'm gullible, I'll try
Message:
...and I am gullible. I deleleted my sulfnbk.exe on the first mention of virus-still trying to figure out how to get it back

Anyway, since you aren't asking for me to 'splain 'mr. Mind', this time-I will

I have never tried to be powerful thru it's use. I see this forum as most important for those limp aways that need to know that Rawat is full of shit and they are not failures because they couldn't put up with his insanity. The power of Mr. Mind is something projected upon us by the snake his ownself. This was done, IMO, to place himself as a savior from this awful DEVIL.

I try to put my feelings about this despicable slime in words. I may succeed some times-I may fail others. I feel it important for these slink-aways(many times more in #'s than ex's)

I hope this explains some

I don't feel powerful

I hurt a lot

My friends call me Jack(no not Jack Off or Jack Mind)

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:36:31 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Big UP to ya
Message:
I have been reading a little treasure by Yogananda called the Law of Success. He credits the human mind with all the good that people have done in the world, as well as the bad. It's all in how one uses the word and how one defines it.

Interesting how the Bible talks about how all the evil in the world comes forth from the human heart, not to be trusted.

I judged you (wrong to judge from the getgo) as coming on from a place of power/fear when you posted as Mr. Mind, and perhaps it was a knee-jerk to how Maharaji has demonized the word, but hey, in this environment, you can't really blame me, can ya?

So let's get past the names and talk as the occasion arises.

Reminds me of a story about a native American kid who asked his dad how he and his brothers and sisters got named (now I will hear it from gerry and others who may be of that descent, no ill will intended)...

So the kid asks his dad how they all got named and the dad says that when a sister was born, a hawk flew over the tipi and she was named Flying Hawk, and when a brother was born a fox ran across a nearby field so he was called Running Fox, so why do you ask, Two Dogs Fucking???

You aren't gullible, you are like me, wanting to believe in a kind humanity. It does exist.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:51:18 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Big UP to ya/glad that's over
Message:
I heard today that turkeys are so stupid that when it rains, they lift their heads, open their mouths and some of them drown.

I guess that's just Darwin stuff

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:56:37 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Just came in from standing in the rain with my
Message:
mouth open...not long enough to drown, just long enough to feel like a kid again for a bit.

Always looking for the silver lining on the rain clouds,

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:04:11 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Just came in from standing in the rain with my
Message:
I remember one time going to work with a really good meditation buzz...it was raining...I thought I was finally at that place where there would be a constant experience of bliss...I was standing outside thinking(singing)...'I'm standing in the rain...'

Of course, the first time I took LSD, I thought I had actually learned something that would actually carry over beyond the chemical experience

How disappointing...what A bummer

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:33:30 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Your alias is OK with me
Message:
I actually think it's funny (M talking about 'Mr. Mind' always sounded like a comic book to me...)

You wrote:
I see this forum as most important for those limp aways that need to know that Rawat is full of shit and they are not failures
because they couldn't put up with his insanity.

I wouldn't put it quite that way :), but I agree. The only reason I post on this forum is because I know there are people out there who are really hurting. I've been there (and still am sometimes) and I have friends who have been there, and at least one friend who killed himself because he got stuck there.

I hope you are OK, btw.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:46:10 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Thanks Katie
Message:
Yes, I'm ok...it's just when I come here..I'm reminded!!!~

In my 'real' life, I may be doing better than at any time in my life. At least in regards to how I remember it. I still feel alien to others who don't even know the dangers of cults but I now think they don't know I'm weird. So, I guess this is an improvement.

I was a limp away for 2 years until I searched for this site-that I knew about from the whispers-it took me 2 years more to begin feeling like things were finally improving

From reading a lot from the archives, I want to thank you and Bryan for your efforts. I've got to believe there are many more limp-away lurkers to come

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:14:03 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: You're welcome - and thank you too.
Message:
Hey Mr. Mind -

It bothers me a lot that people would feel like 'failures' for not being able to follow Maharaji. I understand the psychology, and WHY people would feel that way, though, and I think it's quite common - just makes me angry. I was fortunate enough to have been spared that feeling because I had the support of other ex-premies at the time that I left - that was unusual - and still is - except for this site.

You wrote:
I still feel alien to others who don't even know the dangers of cults, but I now think they don't know I'm weird. So, I guess this is an improvement.

I think I've felt 'weird' or 'alien' most of my life - and being a follower of Maharaji just amplified those feelings. We were TAUGHT that we were somehow different because we had knowledge - and it took me years after leaving to finally feel that other people were a lot like me. One thing that helped was finding out that other people who had never even heard of Maharaji thought that they themselves were 'weird' too. I work at a university and you wouldn't believe how weird some of the people are here - and it's mostly accepted. (Don't know how I'd feel if I worked in a more mainstream environment!)

Another thing that helped was just allowing myself to be different - only I call it eccentric :). It helps to get older too - less pressure for conformity to some mythical social norm.

I think there are a lot of lurkers here too (should emphasize that 'lurkers' is an internet word and NOT meant to be negative - some people are PROUD to be 'lurkers' - and I can sure understand sometimes why they'd RATHER lurk than post here!).

Thanks for your kind words about the site, btw - it helps.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:00:21 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Test the pH of the rain, Sandy
Message:
You'll be surprised at the level of alkalinity, courtesy of course, of the US of A guv'ment and their multibillion dollar aerial spray campaign know colloquially as 'chemtrails.'
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:14:37 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Test the pH of the rain, Sandy
Message:
You want pics of it? I have plenty. Some are so, so gross.

I live by a gov base and the spraying is awful. We complained but of course, is nothing bad for people...I'm taking my vitamnis...hehehehe

Do you have that around there too?

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:32:22 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: Test the pH of the rain, Sandy
Message:
Oh, I too have taken many, many pics. The greasy halo around the sun after they get done spraying is disgusting.

We seem to get it really bad here.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:07:30 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Test the pH of the rain, Sandy
Message:
By acid rain, I refer to all and any toxins in the wet stuff that the OEM did not intend to be there. Yeah, all thanks to the greatest and freest (and most polluting, methinks) country in the world.

What do GW and Dick think? They will be able to live somewhere on the planet where this won't get to them too? It never ceases to amaze me at how ignorant these folks are about the law of cause and effect, something they cannot buy their way out of.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:58:49 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: micheled@bga.com
To: Everyone
Subject: I received in e-mail a letter from an ex
Message:
and since I will be stopping posting here, I feel my letter back to this person may as well be made here as an open letter:

Dear anonymous 'ex' person,

I am touched that you took the time (and had the heart) to write me and I do appreciate it. Actually, now that I have had a little time (what, an hour? LOL) to let my steam cool, I am feeling pretty sure that I will set up a forum discussion on my own website, but it will not be just for one group. It will be a FREE SPEECH website whose main focus is Maharaji, but there will be categories of conferences to pick from, in which people must stay on topic -- and much, much less time-consuming to navigate than the ex-premie website. (No one seemed to appreciate my free advice about that either, LOL.)

I think I'll have to take some time to figure out how to organize it so that people who don't want to ever have to read the 'sappy and positive' stuff about Maharaji don't need to read it or see it, and vice versa -- those who don't want to read Maharaji being dissed don't have to look into that category of the forum either. But there will be a place for everyone. That's my concept. I might do it.

Yes, I understand at least a lot of what you are saying about the people who post on F5. However it is very strange to me that people who feel they were somehow violated by Maharaji and/or anyone involved with Maharaji feel so free to abuse anyone that says anything they don't want to hear. With or without Maharaji, people in this world need -- more than anything else, methinks -- to learn to treat one another with respect and talk with love as much as they possibly can. Only in that way can we all really learn to successfully made this world a better place to live in.

I'll miss La-ex especially. I might drop in from time to time, just to see if he has anything fun to read.

Warm regards,

Michele

P.S. I did learn something new from being on the F5 this week. I learned that my experience in the ashram was an unusually happy one. I would have hated it if I had been forced to follow the orders of a bunch of premies on 'spiritual ego trips' and other various and assorted ego and power trips. However at the same time -- and I really must stress this -- all of these people could have left at any time, and it was their FEAR of leaving that hurt them more than anything else. It's like back to that old hippie saying I love so much: 'What if they gave a war and nobody came?' Well, what if they had an ashram and nobody who was unhappy there stayed? I'll warrant you history would have been pleasanter indeed.

possibly coming soon: www.deradune.com 'free speech forum'

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:08:02 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: You are just too preachy, Michele...
Message:
Your posts have been just like dozens of other premies who have come here. You tell us how it is with you, you don't answer questions, then get upset that your comments aren't appreciated, and feel your free speech has been violated when you are criticised.

Have you read the information on the rest of this site? Have you studied the Indian Background of the roots of M's knowlege? Have you read the Journeys? You go on about free speech, but you don't talk TO as, you talk AT us. What good is free speech if there is no interaction or discussion? Are you sure you don't mean ''free preach?'' That divine ju-ju stuff doesn't work here. Not because it threatens people, but because it's BORING. Most of us ended up here precisely because it does nothing for us.

As for the format of this forum being too difficult, I don't agree at all, the format is quite simple. Isn't it true that you just don't want to discuss these matters?

Don't blame us if you find it uncomfortable, YOU choose to dive in at the deep end. All the time I was a premie, it never occured to me to post here; there would have been no point to that, unless I wanted to argue. I preffered to read the information on the rest of the site, and draw my own conclusions. Anyone else can do the same. If you don't want to get wet, stay out of the water.

If you are just going to preach, and not discuss, then perhaps it's better if you do stop posting here, till you are ready to interact instead of ignore. We like to discuss, because truth always holds up to scrutiny. You accuse this site of yellow journalism, so why not discuss it with us? We aren't afraid to examine anything.

If you decide to do your own forum, do let us know when it's up and running. The more forums the better. If any more preachy premies come here and complain because we don't like their satsang, we would be glad to refer them to your site.

- Chuck, who wishes you well, but wants you to talk WITH us instead of AT us.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:19:19 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: CORRECTION! We WOULD of LEFFFFFFTTTTTT
Message:
Michelle--here's the Point! We DidNot know THEN what we know NOW. What part of that DON'T U understand?

Michelle, do you REALLLLLLY think you're friends are deep and sincere. That's verbal diarrhea trying to impersonate a warm fuckin buuuutiful person. She is saying nothing, nothing, nothing PROFOUND. You did this a couple of days ago-Same fuckin buuuutiful Sister story.

Good Bye and Good Luck! I mean that Sincerely. I wish you well.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:02:49 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: I received in e-mail a letter from an ex
Message:
Michele:

I am feeling pretty sure that I will set up a forum discussion on my own website, but it will not be just for one group. It will be a FREE SPEECH website whose main focus is Maharaji, but there will be categories of conferences to pick from, in which people must stay on topic -- and much, much less time-consuming to navigate than the ex-premie website.

Sounds like Usenet, actually. For some reason people have a difficult time setting up Usenet software, which is actually simpler than email software. Much easier to navigate than a Web Forum, although you get the occasional dropped post.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:02:47 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Just be normal
Message:
Dear Michelle.

It is clear that your opinions haven't been recieved with the admiration that in your estimate they deserve. So then you feel the need to rush off and champion the cause of free speech? I don't get it.

Isn't the issue more WHERE and TO WHOM you have expressed your views? Obviously nobody around HERE is going to be impressed by your insights--OBVIOUSLY. Freedom of speech doesn't come in to it.

Mabe I do get it though. I suspect a touch of megalomania. You realy expected that jaws would drop in awe at your observations. (Premies get used to turning peoples heads, either by status in premland or charisma in 'the world')-but it didn't happen here somehow.

To a megalo, rejection of his/her perspective smacks of rejection of all perspective-a serious world threatening situation-demanding a correspondingly grand remedy.

Hence: 'I must now set up a website to protect freedom of speech'.

The speech whose freedom you feel is so threatened is actually nothing more than your own opinion. And the freedom you rush to protect, is simply your own urgent need to repeat your views unopposed and without reflection.

Why not just try to formulate something relevant to say on this site, and stick around? Be normal.

love Bryn

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:33:32 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Premie megalomania - acute observation, Bryn
Message:
As a chronic sufferer of that disease for 28 years I am delighted that someone has finally diagnosed it. Yes, my belief in the absolute truth of M and K gave me charisma. I was able to mesmerise poor Indian premies and aspirants with hours of blather about devotion. I just hope that they were being polite and realized that I was talking shit.

Also this new spin, ''We admit that EV is a dysfunctional cult but M is wonderful,'' actually isn't new at all. It's the SOS (same old shit) that Rev Rawat has put out since day one. I can remember in 1974 when I told a mahatma that the ashram premies were a cult (SORRY GUYS) he said to me that he asked M to save him from the ashram premies and M had turned around to him and said, '''Funny, I was going to ask you the same thing.''

It's the ashram premies' fault. It's the Mahatmas' fault. Now it's the EV church-ladies' fault. He has said it so many times that the PWKs believe him. My premie friends are all so thrilled that they now have satellite broadcasts and no longer have to deal with EV. What they fail to see is that guru-worship is the cult.

That old megalomania that comes from having ''the truth'' and exuding divine charisma is what makes the premies who post here so frustrated and sometimes downright vicious when we fail to grasp how perfect they really are.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:11:39 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Speaking of ' talking shit' reminds me
Message:
way back in 1974 in Preston Ashram. The house ITSELF was weird....a tiny terraced house and former brothel .....therefore resonating with all sorts of pyschosexual vibes.Add to that, we
fucked-up, repressed fanatical ashram premies ( wild propagators let loose on the poor towns inhabitants, all night meditations, sexual frustration, food fixation, gopihood aspirations etc etc )and non-premies ( usually coming off bad acid trips ) drifting in and out almost at leisure ...

Anyway .....we used to sit down for our holy satsang and each spout off our personal mumbo jumbo ......but one evening a guy ( I won't mention his name but I doubt if he'd mind if I did) got up to give his contribution ....(Btw to set the scene ..he's very inteligent,extremely camp with the voice to match ) and then all of a sudden, out of the blue he says something along the lines of

' well ......we all fucking know this all a load of fucking bollocks ....none of us are really happy .....we're all just putting on a big spiritual act .....we've all been fucking brainwashed ' and on and on he went .....subsequently we ALL just pissed ourselves with mass hysterical laughter for the whole satsang period.

hahahah I remember it as if it were yesterday.

Sometime after that I went on a sleep in and refused to get out of bed for a few days.....A honcho from Liverpool had to come round to ' satsang' me out of it .....When he pranamed to the pic in my room his glasses fell of ....I uncharitably said ' serves you right you fucking hypocrite '

The next day I smashed M's picture ( on the asram stairwell ) and hitch hiked to Barrow-in-furness ....my home town. Ten days of walking the beach and 8 hours per day meditation and like a sucker there I was again fulltime serving in the Palace of Peace cafe. Soon after Nick Seymour sent me to Leicester Ashram and the game continued.

When I left Leicester ashram it was back into the arms of Lady LSD and Mr hashish ....I remember smoking some quality hash for the first time in ages....Just smoking with friends in complete silence....with an overwhelming feeling of ecstacy and freedom. I hadn't left the Guru ( not for a long time would that happen ) but I knew I was free from that fucked up world of DLM Ashrams.....

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:37:45 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: GREAT story, Dermot, like life! n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:25:06 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Funny story Dermot! (nt)
Message:
haa haa hee hee
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:10:23 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Really funny insights Bryn :)) (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:29:54 (GMT)
From: freedomgirl
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Speak for yourself, not others,
Message:
it works betetr that way; avoiding passing judgements without knowing facts will make you 'look' smarter and MORE loving.

'I am feeling pretty sure that I will set up a forum discussion '

pretty sure...

'That's my concept. I might do it.'

I may...

'as much as they possibly can.'

pretty human there

' Only in that way can we all really learn to successfully made this world a better place to live in.'

you didn't know people already are doing that, the best 'they'/we can? Oh your guru darling, he told us soo many lies...

'all of these people could have left at any time, and it was their FEAR of leaving that hurt them more than anything else. It's like back to that old hippie saying I love so much: 'What if they gave a war and nobody came?' Well, what if they had an ashram and nobody who was unhappy there stayed? I'll warrant you history would have been pleasanter indeed.'

What do you know?? No~thing. You come here and YOU are afraid cutting ties with maharaji, you, idol worshiper... Hey, how much were the pictures at Miami?

Yeap, the guru is FAKE and a BAD person!

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:53:46 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Admit it - you just like the attention! Bye! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:28:57 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: I received in e-mail a letter from an ex
Message:
Hi Michele,
I have made dramatic exits from the forum myself on several occasions and then have come back now and then to see what is going on. It's a good source of information and I try to get out of it what I can. And yes, there is some juvenile behavior here too, and it's sometimes infuriating.

I hope you do allow for free discussion on your website. You can make it flame free, while still allowing for disagreement. How will you set the tone for your website? If there's a discussion of the issues abotu Maharaji, are you going to encourage people to discuss the facts or only talk about subjective experiences, as in 'but all I know is my own beautiful experience.' That is often what premies use as their defense of Maharaji. It's an incredibly thin and weak defense. It's sort of like sitting in Joe's bar and just chatting about feelings vs. having a discussion/debate based on logical fact. I am only asking because IMO, this site may be infuriating at times, but it did force me to face logical fact abotu M, rather than rely on wispy experiences and fantasies abotu him.

Of course, I hope that you will separate from Maharaji as I see him as a very bad human being, but it's your life. The thing about the forum is that you can always come back to it. Even if some people here behave badly at times, you cannot, and you should not, paint everyone here with the same brush.

This site is not neutral and never proclaimed to be. The bias here is that M is a bad person and does bad things. I have no problem with that, especially since that bias is backed up with alot of fact.
Take care
Helen

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:34:25 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Wrong, sorry Helen. LOL Michele, my post is for U
Message:
oops
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:32:43 (GMT)
From: Silvia Sommer
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: I received in e-mail a letter from an ex
Message:
Helen, from Wisconson?
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:19:21 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Rawat would agya you not to do this-NT
Message:
asdf
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:18:51 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Please let us know...
Message:
...if and when your free speech forum opens.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:10:03 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: seriously....
Message:
Why be so melodramatic ? stay ......or pop in for a while.......just be a little bit more sensitive to the environment !! It's EX premie.

Take Care

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:07:21 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: bye bye ( yippee no more crapsang satsang) (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:04:31 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Pia Website and the Continued EV Spin
Message:
On Pia's website, there is an article by someone named William Strait, which isn't really very straight. It is entitled:

Of praise and criticism of Maharaji, and the purpose of this site

After reading it, I agree with Way, that Pia's website is done in conjunction with Elan Vital, because it parrots the same company line, no matter how ridiculous and fraudulent, as Elan Vital does on its website.

It leads me to believe that the website has a false facade of independence, but is instead part of the haphazard and incompetent PR team over at good old EV to try to deal with an increasingly difficult situation. I think its exitence is evidence of panic and desperation, now that not only is EPO active and growing into its fourth year, former PAMs like Michael Dettmers and Donner have arrived, and criticisms of Maharaji are now being distributed in the press, at least in France.

Anyhow, Mr. Strait's asserts the following, which is right in line with Elan Vital revisionist mythology:

1. Maharaji (the Perfect Master although unstated by Mr. Strait) has always been criticized and attacked. Just look at Jesus Christ, for Christ's sake!(sorry). It's just part of the game and always happens, so no need to listen to the actual content of the criticisms, or respond to them. So premies, and aspirants, don't worry you little evil minds about it.

2. Maharaji himself has been criticized since he was a child (insert several obviously absurd rumors about speaking 24 languages, someone speaking behind him via microphone, because he was such a young kid, etc as complete red herrings to avoid addressing the actual concerns.) Of course, no mention of the current criticisms of Maharaji, simple implication that they fall into the same old, tired, categories. Mr. Strait also quotes other red herrings, like some article in India about some controversy about whether or not M is a Hindu, which has zero relevence in the West.

Mr. Strait also mentions a few really misleading comments:

Many began referring to him as Perfect Master, Satguru, or true guru of the times.

Correction. MAHARAJI HIMSELF referred to HIMSELF as THE PERFECT MASTER and the Satguru and the one true guru. Big difference William. William also conveniently forgets LORD OF THE UNIVERSE and SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON, which was a phrase Maharaji wrote HIMSELF in 1976. People did not just spontaneously start calling Maharaji things. They called him what he called himself.

Others said that some who were praising him were more interested in proclaiming Maharaji's identity in terms of the Hindu cosmology than they were in taking his message to heart.

This doesn't make much sense, but I think William's statement here is in line with the EV assertion that ex-premies were really into the Hindu aspects of DLM and EV, and really didn't experience knowledge, and were just pissed off because Maharaji got rid of the Hindu concepts and that was the problem. William doesn't bother to give any proof for this, nor does he mention that Maharaji, to this day, still engages in the Hindu cosmology of DARSHAN, of people lining up to kiss his feet, that he is still called 'guru' in India, or that, again, Maharaji himself talked about all the Hindu cosmology like reincarnation, Hindu scriptures, and ARTI, a devotional Hindu song, which, by the way, was being instrumentally played at his events in the late 90s.

But his detractors were also growing in vigor. He became the target of slander and sometimes violent demonstration by an organization that believed all gurus were unnecessary frauds.

Just who is this? Christians?

Mr. Strait continues his article with a list of the 'typical criticisms' of Maharaji, which are mostly misstated and a large number are left out, for obvious reasons.

Here is his list:

Typical criticisms are both varied and contradictory: 'He is a fraud, claiming to be something better than the rest of us.'

Some have called Maharaji a fraud, based on personal experience that Maharaji doesn't deliver what he promises. Some have also called him a fraud because he claimed to be the incarnation of God, but isn't. Notice the claiming to be God allegation is conveniently ignored by Mr. Strait. As for claiming to be better that the rest of us, well, who else let's people kiss his feet?

'He should not be rich.'

The issue isn't wealth, it's where he got the wealth, and whether it is hypocritical to claim to have the priority to spread knowledge to the world, but instead his organization is hitting the premies up for money at the same time Maharaji is acquiring a $7 million yacht. Plus, how 'RICH' does Maharaji need to be? HOW MANY Rolls Royces, residences, planes, and how BIG a yacht does he need, and isn't it reasonable to use that information in deciding if this guy is the kind of 'master' you would want to follow?

'He should not fly his own plane around the world.'

Well, I think it's not only an obscene waste of money to do this, I also think it's environmentally irresponsible to do it, so, yes, I agree with this one.

'He should make the message more intelligible to the intellect.'

Yes, this would help, but I think if Maharaji was going to get this together it would have happened by now.

'He should have a better organization.'

This is nuts. I don't think anybody cares about this, except maybe Maharaji himself.

'He should have more followers by now.'

Well, since I think he's a fraud, I'm glad he has relatively few followers and that most people have never heard of him. But I think the point is, the fact that 90% of his followers have split might be seen as reasonable evidence to many that his 'gift' isn't all that great.

'He shouldn't have started ashrams in the West in the 70's.' 'He shouldn't have closed those ashrams in the 80s.'

Here William misses the point completely, but I think intentionally, given that he has no response to it, and neither does Elan Vital. The real criticism is that Maharaji started the ashrams, cajoled us to surrender and devote to by by entering them and living poor, celibate lives, told us they were for a lifetime, the effect being that his followers trashed their lives for years to live in them, and then one day on a whim he just dumped everyone out of them, even sticking them with the debts. William, honey, that's the criticism. Try and get it right, okay, or you might be accused of obfuscation. How about a response to it in your next editorial?

'He shouldn't have gotten married and had children.' 'Having a family, he shouldn't travel so much.'

First time I ever heard that one.

'He should talk more about God.' 'He shouldn't talk so much about God.'

No, William, the issue is he shouldn't have CLAIMED to be God, and then, he shouldn't lie and say he never did it, like he is currently doing. Talking or not talking about God doesn't concern most exes.

'He should be a leader, responsible for the actions of those who listen to him.' 'He shouldn't be a leader at all.'

Funny, Maharaji claims on his personal website to have never been a leader, as ridiculous and fraudulent as that claim is, considering his documented behavior and statements for the past 30 years.

In short, he and his message should be something we can label, fit into a definite category, and get our minds around.

No, in short, Maharaji should take responsibility for his actions, admit that many people got hurt following his direction, stop lying about his past, apologize about the ashrams and scaring the shit out of people who might want to leave him or stop practicing, and put an end to the practice of Maharaji worship, among other things. That's the 'short' of it, William.

NOTE: Mr.Strait does not respond to ANY of the real criticisms of Maharaji, he just labels them as false rumors, or worthy of being ignored because you have to think to address them. I wonder if he will get around to that.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:50:11 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Wha' happened to the hyperlink to Pia's site???
Message:
I only had two rum and cokes, stiff to be sure, but not that stiff. Can't find the damned link. A litle help please...?
Tanks.

Shandy

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:29:57 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Pia Website and the Continued EV Spin
Message:
Hi Joe,

I just had to say something about the following quote before I go to bed.

William Strait said
''Such critics can malign individuals and groups they hate without having to make their statements to anyone's face, or even use their real names. They can be as irresponsible as they like with minimum accountability.''

Our accountability!!! What about m's accountability?

Pia site makes me REALLY ANGRY and just when I thought I was getting over my angry stage.

Goodnight,

Kev.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:39:35 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: Well spotted William Strait
Message:
Both Michael Donner and Michael Dettmers did not use their real names when posting here. I believe Michael Donner posted using the anonymous name 'Michael Donner', while Michael Dettmers used the nom de plume of 'Michael Dettmers'.

Well spotted, that man.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:46:18 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Why Pia's site is counterproductive
Message:
There's one thing abot Pia's site that is so glaringly obvious, that it can be missed. All the emphasis is on Maharaji. The whole site is praising Maharaji.

This alone is evidence enough that any follower of Maharaji is just into a cult of 'teacher' worship. Maharaji is the figurehead and the beginning, middle and end of the story. The whole thing is just about him and him alone.

If premies are trying to assist Maharaji here, they are failing dismally. All they are doing is showing any casual observer that this cult really is just about one personality. Pia's sort of site is definitely counterproductive to Maharaji's 'mission' but then, Maharaji himself is counterproductive to his mission too.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 22:53:31 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Pia's site being censored already ?
Message:
I noticed the picture of the Maha is gone and there's a box with a little red x there instead. Is this what everyone sees?

Goober's probably pissed because she posted his pic before anyone could airbrush out the zits. He sure is an ugly little toad.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:08:57 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Pia's site being censored already ?
Message:
His pic never came thru for me, but hers did.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:04:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I think you may be right. The Pics are gone. (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:57:33 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: 'm himself is counterproductive...' :)) (nt)
Message:
xx
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:14:50 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Just realised also
Message:
that she refers to people here as 'ex-lovers'.

Ugh, double ugh! I think I'm going to be sick.

She is one of those premies I used to love to hate, even when I was a premie. I bet she's pure, too.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:29:57 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Cancer can be created in a body by wrong thinking.
Message:
Really.

Taking all the tears and sympathy out of it, cancer can be caused by hate, by fear, by prejudice, by a closed mind. Don't ask me for proof. Believe it or don't. If it ain't already, it'll be on a late news show sometime in the not too distant future.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:48:51 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: can only sympathise with her re; her cancer (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:17:03 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Cancer can be created in a body by wrong thinking.
Message:
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, Sandy. You're saying that cancer can be caused by some psychological states? If so, how does that enter into the argument? Are you saying that Pia's unfortunate cancer could be attributed to some psychological state?

Myself, all I can say is, there but for the grace of God go I. My sister died of cancer just four years ago. She was a super-fit person and very sporty and yet she was struck down in her prime by the terrible disease.

In some cases, cancer has some genetic cause. In other cases it can be enviromental and in others, caused by all manner of factors which have yet to be determined.

I think in most cases, whether a person gets cancer or not can be a lottery. We don't know enough to draw any firm conclusions. I doubt that Pia has had the traits which you describe. I think we can honestly say, it is very bad luck for her.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 00:47:27 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Cancer is the sins of somebody being visited on
Message:
somebody else or the same person. It can be environmental, or just mental. My dad had a really nasty prostate cancer surgery that aged him alot. He is still a young 83 but it took alot out of him. He smoked and has eaten processed foods for years. he worked in industrial corporate America, in plants where God knows what kind of shit was in the air and fluids that kept the machines running.

I am not sitting back and gloating about who has this terrible disease and why, but I do really think that wrong thinking being manifested in environmental shit, or just plain hatred for someone or something can bring it on.

As for Pia, I cannot say. I just feel that she is coming from a place where she is blind to a whole point of view that has validity, but she is blocking it due to her beliefs. That cannot be good for her or anyone if you think about it.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:56:03 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Cancer is caused by tiny invisible bacteria and...
Message:
gets a hold in people when several factors combine to depress the immune system, plus there is toxicity in the form of solvents to allow the cancer entry into the organ holding the solvent. This is the theory of Dr Hulda Clarke, based on research by Rife in the early part of this century, that was intentionally shut down by opposing scientific and business interests. Factors depressing the immune system could be grief, long-term stress of any sort, bad diet, etc etc. Basically cancer starts like a cold, but the result is unstoppable reproduction of cells in the affected area and can lead to death. Now, we all get colds, don't we? Any attitude even remotely sounding like judgement is pretty stuupid and hurtful. I've had cancer. I don't think you're in a position to spout your theories and I find your contribution most unhelpful.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 00:37:20 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: bacteria?.
Message:
Maybe bacteria are a factor in a few cases, but I haven't heard of bacteria sited as a major cause. I have read that viruses are probably a big factor in some cased, which makes a lot more sense. I think bacteria would be a more indirect cause.
A depressed immune system can be a factor, there are other factors that can depress the immune system, like other diseases and genes.

'toxicity in the form of solvents to allow the cancer entry into the organ holding the solvent.'

That doesn't make sense. I have read that cancerous cells have ways to invade organs, but that is different.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:18:22 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Then why don't we all have cancer?
Message:
Really Sandy, that was a low blow. But I won't preach. Gentle prodding though.

Cheers!

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 11:47:11 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Deborah
Message:
Really Sandy, that was a low blow. But I won't preach. Gentle prodding though. Cheers! -Deborah

Hi Deborah,

It was not a low blow, it was the truth about all of us, not just Pia. The truth is sometimes the most compassionate thing one can give someone else, especially if lives are in imminent danger of being lost. People have saved themselves by aligning more with natural and divine law and come back from the brink of death.

You can also check out my repsonse to Jim's all cap diatribe.

In answer to why we don't all have cancer...proximity to the thing causing it, genetic history, environment, karma in the practical sense of cause and effect, diet and personal lifestyle, individual tenacity to fight off disease...

By sin I mean separation from God, life and health due to separation from natural and divine law. That is the origin of the word. Is that what threw you? Perhaps I should have qualified the word, but having been a student of some holy books, I used the word sin scientifically, not religiously.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 03:26:30 (GMT)
From: silvita
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: don't do it here
Message:
you gave me advice and now, look what you done.:0

I agree on this with you.

Names don't mean anything anymore... I call it WAY THINGS ARE=REAL.

Be well.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 00:23:07 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: You missed Deborah's point
Message:
You didn't answer Deborah's question, do you realize that?

'People have saved themselves by aligning more with natural and divine law and come back from the brink of death.'

In a small minority of cases people have saved themselves by making a change, so what?

'karma in the practical sense of cause and effect'

Karma does not mean 'cause and effect'.

'individual tenacity to fight off disease'

That is a small factor, not nearly important as the overall strength of one's immune system.

'By sin I mean separation from God, life and health due to separation from natural and divine law. That is the origin of the word. Is that what threw you? Perhaps I should have qualified the word, but having been a student of some holy books, I used the word sin scientifically, not religiously.'

No, that is not the origin of the word, that is somewhat close to this meaning: 'A condition of estrangement from God resulting from deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.' See sin.
What holy books? You're not becoming a fundamentalist are you?
Sin is not a scientific word, it is a religious word. I don't think you will hear scientists using 'sin' in their work.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:30:54 (GMT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: You are a total loser freak Sandy.
Message:
For Christ sake how can you spout the shit that comes out of your head. Cancer is a disease. Generally it is simply genetic.
Get a barbie doll or something Sandy . You are a total basket case.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 01:09:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: THAT'S DISGUSTING, SANDY! SHAME ON YOU!!
Message:
It's one thing to talk about Pia's cancer because she's made it a bit of an issue. It's another to use your new age bullshit to even begin to insinuate, as you have, that she's somehow responsible for her illness. What a fucked thing to say! Too much. Too fucking much.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 11:49:54 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: hey, guess what
Message:
I agree with you on this, Jim.

It's ridiculous to assume that a person could be responsible for their cancer because of what they think.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:20:48 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: You are wrong Mili, too often
Message:
There have been studies asking for asnwers to why people get cancer and there are many factors taht may cause it. Severe emotional repressed problems (As following a greedy opressor guru for 28 years) CAN make a being very sick including getting cancer.

Silvia, who loves her body enough to read about it.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:51:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Come on, Silvia, that's too much
Message:
It's extremely offensive to throw this poor fool's cancer at her as if she caused it herself by being a premie. There are no studies supporting such an outlandish notion and yes, Silvia, this is one you should apologize for. I hope you'll think about this fairly.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:48:48 (GMT)
From: s
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It is a theory
Message:
I happen to believe that very well it can be a correlation there of sick emotions and the effects in the wholeness of our bodies. Body, mind and spirit. That energy taht will leave the body some day...I have one. MO.

Sorry Jim, love 2 u!

;)silvia

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:06:15 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hold on a second, Jim
Message:
Right or wrong there has been a lot of studies and theorizing about the relationship between peoples' states of mind and disease.

I'll bet Silvia COULD indeed find studies that support the idea that mental states can be contributory factor in the disease. Of course, with something like cancer it is difficult to pin down any one cause, except in a few cases, like radiation poisoning.

But I agree, there are no studies showing a casual relationship between cancer and premiedom. I don't think she was saying that, though.

And of course, Pia has nothing but my sincerest wishes for her recovery. I sent her the very best information I have on the subject.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:39:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: What??
Message:
Silvia said exactly that:

Severe emotional repressed problems (As following a greedy opressor guru for 28 years) CAN make a being very sick including getting cancer.

This is a low blow and entirely uncalled for.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:56:41 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I think you're taking this the wrong way
Message:
But perhaps it's all in the reading.

The twenty eight year time period to which she was referring is the time that Silvia spent in the cult. That's what I got out of it anyway.

I don't think she was trying to say that Pia's cancer was caused by her cult involvement, but maybe we should ask her.

And even if she did mean that, there are probably a lot of people of would give credence to that point of view and it's not so far out of the main stream as you may think it is. Again, I'm not saying I agree with this.

I do however, think that being in a cult can make one mentally ill and that can have its physical components. Give her a break.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:26:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Sorry, Ger, it's as clear as day
Message:
It's all in the reading, sure. It's called english and you, Silvia and I all speak it. What she said is perfectly clear and no, there's no such evidence for such a claim and yes, it's offensive. Look, the woman's got cancer, for god's sake! She says she's dying. Who are we to start telling her she got her cancer from being a premie? It's a stupid idea, entirely offensive and unnecessary. There may indeed be a 'lot of people [who] would give credence to that point of view' but it is indeed 'far out of the mainststream.' It's certainly unscientific.

By the way, if you're really interested in the origin of AIDS there is a fascinating chapter all about HIV's evolution in a book called Darwin's Ghost. Here's the Amazon.com blurb:

'Biologists have a dirty little secret: while practically everyone knows of The Origin of Species (and owes much to it), almost nobody has read it. British geneticist Steve Jones wants to make the arguments contained in that great text accessible to modern audiences, and succeeds with the delightful Darwin's Ghost. Approximating the structure of Darwin's opus, Jones uses the original chapter headings and summaries as a scaffolding to build an up-to-date demonstration of the power of a few simple ideas. Heredity, variation, and natural selection are all you need to infer evolution over time, and now that Jones can fill in the gaps in Darwin's pre-Mendelian understanding of genetics, the case becomes airtight.

More than a polemic, though, Darwin's Ghost is nearly as pleasurable a read as its ancestor is--one suspects that part of Jones's mission is to inspire today's readers to turn back to the grand but humble Origin of Species. While he may not be able to quite match Darwin's vast erudition or hawk's eye for detail, he still makes the theory of evolution shudder and breathe on the page. Dog breeding, mass extinctions, and weird fossils of tiny elephants all march to his drumbeat and--just when you least expect it--return to the main point that all living things share a common ancestor. Whether you're one of the elite who's had the pleasure of Darwin's literary company or you'd like a taste of what you're missing, Darwin's Ghost will bring the spirit of the great man back into your world of ideas.

--Rob Lightner --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

The New York Times Book Review, John Durant

There are few better or more entertaining accounts of the evolutionary process in print today than Darwin's Ghost.

--This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

From Booklist:

One hundred forty-one years after Darwin's opus was published, evolution continues to be rejected by many people. Jones, a British geneticist, possesses the popular touch and deploys it in this mighty effort to explain, for anyone with an open mind, the logic of the theory. His organization emulates the original chapters and subheadings of Darwin's book, though Jones' illustrations of the actions of evolution are altered for familiarity to contemporaries: in Darwin's day, an example used was the breeding of pigeons; in Jones' book, it's the mutation of HIV viruses. Jones' command of biological knowledge and adroitness in presenting it would be for naught but for the forcefulness of his discussion of Darwin's principles: the imperfectibility of reproduction, the slight advantages (or disadvantages) conferred by such imperfections, all worked on by the relentless struggle for existence and the staggering immensity of time, which inexorably leads to descent with modification, that is, to new species. Jones has written an inspiring argument supporting the theory of evolution, vital for anyone doubtful of creationist views but not sure why.

Gilbert Taylor --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

Book Description:

Charles Darwin's The Origin of Species is probably the best-known, least-read book. One of the most important achievements of the past millennium, it did for biology what Galileo did for astronomy: made it into a single science rather than a collection of unrelated facts. Important though Origin remains, its examples and intricate Victorian prose are now a century and a half old. They are ripe for renewal and reaffirmation. Writing as 'Darwin's ghost,' eminent geneticist Steve Jones updates this seminal work--and restates evolution's case for the 21st century.

Jones is a writer of engaging wit and dazzling erudition and has been called 'the British Carl Sagan.' Using modern examples--the AIDS virus, the puzzles of sexual selection, the physiology and psychology of pets, and the unparalleled genetic success of our own species--he shows the power and immediacy of Darwin's great argument and makes us appreciate how it makes life make sense. Eye-opening and entertaining, filled with astonishing facts, amusing anecdotes, and the very latest research, Darwin's Ghost is contemporary science writing at its very best.

From the Back Cover
'There are few better or more entertaining accounts of the evolutionary process in print today than Darwin's Ghost.'
--The New York Times Book Review

'FASCINATING AND WITTY. . . WRITTEN WITH GREAT AUTHORITY AND A FLUID STYLE . . . [STEVE JONES IS A] SUPERIOR COMMUNICATOR--HUMANE, APPROACHABLE, FUNNY.'
--The Boston Sunday Globe

About the Author:

Steve Jones is the Professor of Genetics at University College London. He regularly appears on British TV and radio, and wrote and presented a hugely successful BBC TV series called In the Blood. His previous books include The Language of Genes, winner of the prestigious Rhône-Poulenc Science Book Prize. He lives in London. --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 18:40:44 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Let' s ask her
Message:
Silvia did you mean to say Pia's cancer was caused by being a premie?

Jim, I don't see how you can separate the mental and emotion components of disease from the physical. That is unscientific.

Have you read this book yet? I heard of it somewhere and was wondering if you had seen it or read it. I don't get from the reviews that the book is going to shed much light on the origin of AIDS. It looks like it talks about the mutability of the virus which is not in dispute here.

Look, the woman's got cancer, for god's sake! She says she's dying. Who are we to start telling her she got her cancer from being a premie? It's a stupid idea, entirely offensive and unnecessary.

I agree it would be awful to tell Pia she has cancer because of her belief in rawat's 'specialness.' Please don't even hint that I think this way, or would say this to her, or this conversation is over.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 19:38:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I guess the conversation's over then
Message:
Gerry,

I'm just responding to your words. Silvia's words. Words, words, words. Nothing personal, in that I'm not coming to this with any prejudice or axe to grind. I'm just responding to what Silvia said and then what you said about that.

You only have to ask Silvia what she meant if you can't understand her words in the first place. What part of this don't you understand?:

Severe emotional repressed problems (As following a greedy opressor guru for 28 years) CAN make a being very sick including getting cancer.

As for your own words:

I don't think she was trying to say that Pia's cancer was caused by her cult involvement, but maybe we should ask her.

And even if she did mean that, there are probably a lot of people of would give credence to that point of view and it's not so far out of the main stream as you may think it is. Again, I'm not saying I agree with this.

I do however, think that being in a cult can make one mentally ill and that can have its physical components. Give her a break.

...while you say you don't agree with the opinion that Pia might have gotten her cancer from being a premie, you seem to suggest that it's a reasonable opinion nonetheless. If I'm wrong, show me how but, sorry, it seems pretty clear that you're suggesting as much.

As for the book, I'm reading it. Here's what he says about the origin of AIDS. Here's the first part anyway (I'm actually typing this):

'A species can originate but once. Few biologists are lucky enough to see it happen, even at the giddy pace of evolution among viruses. How is it possible to trace the origin of a disease most of whose victims are dead? Nucleic acids tell the story. They reveal a recent eruption of diversity. In a family tree of the agent of AIDS drawn for the United States, differences explode, like a firework, from a common source -- the mark of the disease's sudden arrival and rapid spread. the pattern of global relatedness, too, looks more like a shrub than an oak. For HIV-1, all the main branches join in a common node. The HIV-2 pedigree looks much the same. For each, the point where the shoots all meet marks the origin of an epidemic.

A chronometer is hidden within all words, and in each length of nucleic acid. It depends on a simple and regular mechanism, the buildup of errors with time. If the moment when its hands were set is known and the machinery ticks smoothly, its rate can be measured. This molecular clock, as it is known, can be used to estimate when any member of the HIV family diverged from any other. The timer's rate varies, in part because patients who die soon after infection leave no time for it to tick, while those who struggle on for years undergo more evolution. Even worse, it seems to move at different speeds in diferent subtypes. Nevertheless, the clock in the genes makes sense, and HIV-1 samples collected in the 1990s haved moved on from those taken ten years earlier. To turn back the hands to zero puts the start of the global outbreak at some time in the 1049s. HIV-2, the genes show, began its international career at much the same moment.

The earliest known specimen of the human imunnodeficiency virus was found long after the death of its victim. It came from a fossil, the preserved remains of an anonymous African inhabitant of the Congo city of Leopoldville (now called Kinshasa and the capital of the Democratic Republic). More than a thousand blood samples left over from the first years of Congolese independence were tested, but although several were HIV-positive, just one, from a patient who died in 1959, retained any viral genes. It was quite similar to the common ancestor of today's HIV-1 viruses as reconstructed from the genetic signatures of their descendants. AIDS, it seems, started with an African (a discovery greeted by the Ghanian Times as 'a shameful and vulgar attempt to push this latest white man's burden onto the door of the black man'). The similarity of the reconstructed and the actual ancestor suggests that the global epidemic began soon after the Second World War, perhaps from a single virus particle. Startling as it seems, it is no more than what happens every few years as new waves of Asian flu sweep across the world.

The virus did not take long to escape from its native land. Only one of its routes out of Africa has been explored. In 1976, a young Norwegian sailor died of a mysterious illness. A sample of his tissue was, many years later, found to contain traces of the Cameroon branch of HIV-1. He was infected on a trip to West Africa, soon after his fifteenth birdthday in 1960. The voyage gave him plenty of chances for sex. His records show that, somewhere on the journey, he caught gonorrhea. The doctor missed is other, fatal, illness.'

The book goes on to explain how the various kinds of HIV have evolved, even to the point of having two distinct 'species' and explaining, in case you wondered as I did, how it is that AIDS is a homosexually-transmitted disease to the extent that it is in the west while it's predominantly spread via heterosexual sex in Africa. It's all super interesting. Apparently -- and here's a scary thought -- AIDS could one day evolve into a virus that spreads without any sexual or blood contact at all.


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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 19:56:11 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: shameful propaganda and yes the conversation is
Message:

OVER !!!


But thanks for taking the time to type that.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 20:05:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: And thank YOU for the thoughtful feedback!
Message:
Shameless propaganda? I know you're kidding but, well, you ARE kidding, right? Tell me you're kidding, Ger.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 20:30:41 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm kidding, I'm kidding, but I'm
Message:
kinda irked over the Pia deal.
This guy hasn't really made his case, IMO but I'll read the book.

I believe the US government is capable and willing to spread death by disease just as they are willing to kill people by more 'conventional' means.

But then I have a problem with authority anyway.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:10:38 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: gerry, check out boydgraves.com
Message:
Since you realize some governments will kill people for their purposes.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:36:28 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Brace yourself, Silvia
Message:
You have dared to disagree with Mr. All Caps Bold Just Back From Amaroo Heller. Prepare to be verbally attacked, ridiculed and demeaned, either little by little since you are already an ex, or nuked all at once, depending maybe on the level of Dewar's in his decanter. And you better have your references bookmarked and footnoted or else your words will have no weight in their own right, which would give you the respect you deserve and have already proved that you do.

It was cool when he was not around and I grew alot without his input or his terribly acidic fertiizer. Fact is, if he were fertilizer, you'd have to mix him alot with some lime or something, like you have to with fresh horseshit, so the roots of the young starter plants don't get burned up by the acidity.

By the way, would you feel comfortable givng me a way to reach Kray....I could just call Troy, MI information, but I want to talk to you first. And I am not insensitive to the gravity of the situation and how everything can have a very long term or permanent effect right now. His face came into my head and I saw him and Sue and their little cottage in Miami with all the flowers and plants. We did some service together during my 8 years there. He drove that littel white VW all over the place full of flowers with the AC on high and I helped him on more than one occasion. We hung out and chilled together on occasion, too. I am really sorry to hear about his current condition.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 11:18:49 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Your argument is not with me, but with the truth
Message:
All disease -yours, mine, Pia's, everyone's- comes from sin (sin means separation) from natural and divine laws. This is not new age. This is very, very old. A simple proof is that some people have cured themselves of life-threatening 'terminal' diseases by aligning themselves closer with natural ways of eating, living, etc, and by incorporating the one divine law that can make the difference between life and death, to love.

By your capitalization and your self-righteous buffoonery, anyone looking can see how far you have to go, sir.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:18:35 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: ARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!
Message:
Geez, Sandy, I can't believe you buy such silliness. So, if I get a rhinovirus and have a cold,it is because of sin? God's law says not to get the rhinovirus? Do you really think about this stuff before you hit the 'submit' button?
Your theology gets worse by the minute!!!
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:55:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Your ignorance is normally harmless
Message:
I'll tell you, Sandy, if you were ever to suggest something so offensive about someone I actually knew and cared for, I'd go the distance to have you blocked forever from my internet world. But Pia's a stranger to me, frankly, and I can't get all that worked up over this. I can say this, though. If you're right, and 'sin' is the cause of all disease, and 'sin' includes being a fucking idiot, you should have died years ago. We'll continue to monitor you.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 22:25:50 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'And it wouldn't really interest anybody....
Message:
outside of a small circle of friends....' -Phil Ochs

I'll tell you, Sandy, if you were ever to suggest something so offensive about someone I actually knew and cared for, I'd go the distance to have you blocked forever from my internet world. But Pia's a stranger to me, frankly, and I can't get all that worked up over this. -Jim

Yeah, Jim, you just care about your own little circle of friends and just a person being a person doesn't move the needle for ya, does it? Yeah, Jim, what's in it for you? What can a stranger do for you? So why fucking care about a stranger, right? Phil Ochs was singing about you, pal. You made it, you're now a rock and roll icon, just not how you expected it to be, and by your own words you have judged yourself. I am merely saying what I have just witnessed with my own eyes on this screen. -Sandy

I can say this, though. If you're right, and 'sin' is the cause of all disease, and 'sin' includes being a fucking idiot, you should have died years ago. -Jim

Hahaha. That's funny. Yes, it is a sin to be a fucking idiot by choice and not by birth. I am neither and am alive and here to tell you about it. -Sandy

We'll continue to monitor you. -Jim and ?????

You've got me rolling in the aisles, Jim. But seriously, how many of you are in there, in Chez Heller? Got names? Got milk? Got the light of the Christos shining on you! As Tonto said to the Lone Ranger, 'what do you mean 'we', masked man?' -Sandy

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 10:19:21 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sez you...and considering the source....
Message:
I would hesitate to take your reading on anything at face value.
So here's the deal, Jim. I don't intend to get entangled with you any more, so if you take the time to write much more shit about me, I may or may not answer it, based on if I'm in the mood and have time, not if it's true or not. If I took the time to refute everything you said about me that was tainted with your anger and darkness, I'd be too busy to do other more pressing and important things in my life.

But hey, knock yourself out! Or become more conscious. Take your choice.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:04:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: THAT was a VERY dumb post, Sandy (nt)
Message:
ffffff
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 11:06:24 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: As if your evaluation matters or has merit.....
Message:
The clearer my messages are, the shorter your responses are.
This message must have gone deep if that's all you can say.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:48:22 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Your statement is false.
Message:
All disease comes from separation from natural and divine laws?

That is simply false. Stress hormones, overeating, etc. may be partial factors in some disease, but your statement is a gross exaggeration. For your statement to be true, there would have to be no other factors that cause disease. In fact, there are many other factors, such as harmful genes, viruses, bacteria (and other nasty microbes), x-rays (mutagen), mutagenic chemicals (some naturally occuring), starvation and/or dehydration (often not caused by people), and poisonous plants. That is just a partial list.

Even in cases where stress hormones, overeating, etc. play a part, there is no need to blame the victim of the disease. There is a condemning attitude involved with this that assumes that it is the person's fault that these factors were present. And they are only partial factors.

Someone very dear to me died of cancer. I find your statement extremely offensive.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 14:07:20 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: G
Subject: There is no blame on the sick person
Message:
But there is a need to search for answers as long as there is life in a person.

If one's house were burning down, and there was smoke everywhere but you could not find the source of the burning, you would tear apart every drawer, every closet, every wire, every appliance, every hidden place to find that thing that is about to burst into flames and destroy your home. All I am saying is that I would do the same thing if I had a disease that was killing me, and I would urge a friend to do the same, and not just buy an AMA diagnosis that it's 'terminal' or 'incurable' which just means they don't know.

Sorry if anything I said offended you, but I maintain that we are all in some way and to some extent responsible for our conditions. Self-mastery puts more responsibility on each of us to find out what is good or bad for us and to do the good thing that promotes life, if it means moving, changing jobs, diet, climate, clothing, thinking. Death is not a punishment or the worst thing that could happen to us or a condemnation, but an inevitable eventuality for us all. If I were dying because of something I could have done differently and realize that before I die, then it was not a total loss. I believe that we have souls that don't die, but learn life lessons while in bodies. That reality changes the picture. I have lost loved ones, a younger
brother in particular, and I am not a stranger to the pain of such a loss.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 23:50:13 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: We have less control than you are suggesting.
Message:
Do you acknowledge that there are factors that cause disease that are beyond our control? That is an absolute fact. How about a baby that dies from a plague with a high mortality rate, was that baby responsible in any way? Obviously not, yet you make a blanket statement like '...we are all in some way and to some extent responsible for our conditions.'

'But there is a need to search for answers as long as there is life in a person.'

Why use the word 'answers', I would use 'a cure'. Your statement is only partially true. Sure, I would advise someone to keep up the fight as long as there is any hope. But there does come a point where death is inevitable. Perhaps this is not the case for Pia, but I don't know and neither do you.

'... I would do the same thing if I had a disease that was killing me, and I would urge a friend to do the same, and not just buy an AMA diagnosis that it's 'terminal' or 'incurable' which just means they don't know.'

To some degree I agree, I strongly feel that doctors should modify their language and make it more precise what they mean so as not to induce a negative placebo effect, maybe that would help in a few cases. However, most of the time their prognosis is correct. I would advise someone to try whatever means posssible (within reason, like diet) including those outside mainstream medicine to keep up the fight, but getting their affairs in order is also advisable.

'If I were dying because of something I could have done differently and realize that before I die, then it was not a total loss.'

Maybe so, but I think that statement reeks given the context. You have no reason to think the Pia caused her cancer because of something she did. Based on her picture she seems like a nice person, I think she is just misguided.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 10:28:31 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: G
Subject: As we think so we are
Message:
G:

Pia and I have communicated privately. She has no problem with what I have said far as I know. It's all the pundits who have judged me and my words incorrectly and from a very shallow end of the pool. I am neither unfeeling nor insensitive to her health crisis or to the problems of others.

I have no facutal explanation for the baby in the plague scenario that you presented, as to responsibility or control of the situation by the baby or the family.

Yes, G, I think shit does happen. And at times like that, it's not about assigning blame or responsibility for the bad experience that measures us, but how we respond to it and overcome it.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 00:02:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: This is one of the ugliest faces of piety
Message:
Blaming Pia for her cancer is about as low as one can go. I look forward to Sandy's next serious illness so we can all speculate on its origin.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 10:36:07 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You are a lying sack of shit who twists words.
Message:
I did not 'blame' Pia for her cancer.

You are a grandstanding, word-twisting, lying, instigating, asshole who has found an outlet for your pain by trying to drag me down to your level. Sorry, I'm not going on your ride again. It isn't safe and the operator of the ride is out of control.

And you think a witty comeback or a demeaning pseudo intellectual oneupmanship gambit will hide you from anyone here who really sees?


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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 01:02:21 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It reminds me ...
Message:
When a loved one of mine was dying, someone (probably a fundamentalist) 'urged' him to 'accept Jesus into your heart'. The implication was that he hadn't (an assumption) done whatever that means (I suppose it really means worship Jesus as God incarnate) and since he hadn't, that he was heading straight for eternal hell (due to God's justice, ha ha, even though God is loving, since you are so evil you deserve the wrath of this loving God). What a cruel thing to say. This boogie man God of their's sounds like an abusive manipulative thug who will only be nice to you if you do what they say he wants you to do.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 10:46:04 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: G
Subject: G, your cognitive association between me and the
Message:
Jesus freak is purely a fig-newton of your imagikination. That was not my vibe at all.

Just because your were reminded of it due to the convolution of your own mental pathways is no direct reflection on me or what I said.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 15:29:25 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: There is no blame ...it's just a sensitive issue..
Message:
and the tone of presenting ideas as 'truth' can offend people. I think it's probably more likely to get people thinking when you offer an explanation and allow everyone the space to consider it for themselves. There's not much point pronouncing on such things, although I know it's tempting and I do it myself alot. Sitting in front of this monitor for hours on end is probably (certainly, in my case) an example of 'sinful' behaviour, but sin brings connotations of right/wrong, good/bad judgements so is guranteed to stir up the mud and obscure any valid point you might be making. IMO.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 16:04:52 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: creativejani and all
Subject: Bobby's cancer story - if interested....
Message:
Hi all -
An good friend of mine, who is an ex-premie who sometimes posts here - Bobby Manrodt - recently recovered from throat cancer. His doctors termed this a 'miraculous' recovery - I guess his particular cancer could have been called 'terminal' as well.

Anyway, if anyone is interested, his first-person story is at
http://www.well.com/user/bobby/bobby/cancerEHEs.html

BTW, I should warn anyone who is averse to spirituality of any kind that he is involved with Tibetan Buddhism and his story contains a LOT about that. Also, I have not asked Bobby's permission to post this link - he has never posted in on the forum himself, and I can guess that he doesn't need or want a critique of his experiences and beliefs! But he is a survivor, and I honor him for that.

Take care all -
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:00:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: What's your point, Katie?
Message:
What's the point of saying this at this particular time in this particular discussion? Are you in any small, indirect way even slightly siding with Sandy here? Is that what you want to say to Pia? That she got cancer because she's a premie? No, I didn't think so. So what's your point?
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 11:01:29 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's your point, JIM???
Message:
You are just running around the site like a kid running around a campfire with a spray bottle full of gasoline...

You are really a sick puppy, no...you are a sick old dog.

You created and coined the thing about 'blaming' Pia for her disease. I did not hear anyone else say it but you. Others may have suggested that wrong thinking and stress can cause disease and her associations may create some of that, but nobody except
you are spewing it.

You do have a future in yellow tabloid journalism.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:27:43 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My point is
Message:
That people here were arguing about cancer mostly (not all) from a second-hand basis - INCLUDING Sandy. Since some of us know Bobby, I thought they might be interested in what he had to say. Also, I'd been thinking about Bobby's story since I read Pia saying that she had 'terminal' cancer.

So what's the problem here, Jim - don't you think I am 'on-topic' enough? Sheesh.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 11:16:59 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Katie, did you ever know a playground bully?
Message:
Well, that's basically all Jim is, but since we are all grown up now and here online, it takes on potentially larger proportions.

Kick him in his cyber nuts and tell him to fuck off. That is the language he will understand. Otherwise, he will try to push you around here like a cheap lawnchair. Ask around if you don't believe me. Whether you are a premie, ex-premie, agnostic, or whatever, he will try to bully you into never agreeing with me if he doesn't, as if the truth is based on majority rule or popularity or something...anything he thinks is true he will try to jam down the throat of anyone who dares to disagree.

Jim has brought some of his own personal unopened baggage to this gathering called the Forum, as we all have to some degree. The thing about Jlm's baggage is that it's a really heavy old steamer trunk and he has this tendency to come up next to people he disagrees with and drop it on their toes to get their attention.

Be aware.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 11:22:38 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I think it's deeper than from just being a lawyer
Message:
I know some decent folks who are lawyers, so that is not a universal truth that all lawyers are assholes like Jim. No, I think that, after enduring his abusiveness for almost three years as I go about my life and comings and goings from this site which I appreciate, I think that Jim's problem started long ago, in his early childhood. I think somebody or group of people really abused him verbally and messed with his self-esteem bigtime. Why do I think that? Because that is what he does to everyone else now. It's not rocket science....just look.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:35:19 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: And BTW
Message:
I have had two people die of cancer in my immediate family. In both cases, the causative factor was easily identified: tobacco in one case, and taking cortisone for TWENTY years in the other one. That's pretty much all I know about it. Bobby's story is more about CURING cancer, IMHO.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:53:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Who's idea was it to exploit her cancer, I wonder
Message:
On her site, Pia raises the ante for loyalty to the cause:

Having been diagnosed with terminal cancer, I am keenly aware of the preciousness of whatever time remains for me, and I know that doing what I am doing now is a most worthy use of my time. I hope you will consider it worthy of yours.

Raises some interesting questions, doesn't it? Honestly, what do you think? Is someone like Pia better off leaving this world with a smile on her face no matter what? I've often wondered about this. She put it on the table; it's a fair discussion.

Personally, I'd want to know the truth. I'd want to know that I was had and thus, it's a stranger, wilder world than I ever believed. On the other hand, Pia thinks Maharaji's probably holding her hand now, waiting to take her to a better place. God, that sounds kind of yummy too!

Hard to say, isn't it?

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 23:44:26 (GMT)
From: She was targetted
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: HIPOCRATS!!! the sympaty thing...NT
Message:
y
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 20:29:29 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I tried to avoid that issue
Message:
It really is strange; it's the idea that because she has terminal cancer she is therefore more sincere and honest. I'm surprised she would use her illness in that way.

I mean terminal cancer is awful, but it's irrelevent to whether Pia is in a cult or not, and hence unable to see Maharaji objectively. The two things are just not related.

But, frankly, I would hope she spent whatever time she has on the things that REALLY matter, like being with her family and friends, enjoying the beautiful things the world has to offer, etc.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:42:02 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Joe / Mr. Strait
Subject: It isn't about if he wore brown shoes with a blue
Message:
suit.

I just scanned through the q & a's from the Strait guy. It's like he was asked was time is it and he's giving the weather report. Lame.

Example: It's not THAT he closed the ashrams, it's HOW.

Example: If one of his mahatmas could practice pedophilia on two or more continents for years undetected or unstopped in the premie communities, then DAMN STRAIGHT, STRAIT, he DOES need a better organization. And I betcha that more folks than just Maharaji feel that way, too. I don't need a rank or a position or a pocketful of cash or the keys to the residence to know of that which I speak. I did not make the mistake of giving up my God given common sense and human decency when I got Knowledge.
Check yourself.

Example: It's not bad to be rich, but to say that he got it from his sweet business acumen instead of giving credit to those who provided his seed money to even get started on his quest to bring peace to the world and a gold toilet to his own home, that's a problem. And if he has such great business sense and great financial advisors, then why is that kind of product not offered through the Visions booklet along with the trinkets? Financial advice would help premies, Maharaji, the local economies, etc.
And don't tell me he's not in the business of giving financial advice through his people...if he can sell mugs and keychains, he can dispense good advice and even make a commission on it.

Example: HE DID TOO SAY HE WAS GOD, EVEN GREATER THAN GOD BECAUSE HE SHOWS YOU GOD.

Strait, this is a tough room, trust me when I tell you. You gotta be straight, be honest with the facts, or shut the hell up or leave, or you will be verbally eviscerated, and rightfully so.

Sandy


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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:44:02 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, please forward my above post to Strait? (nt)
Message:
zagdewgrsrdg
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:27:56 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy, you can email it on Pia's website.
Message:
It's in a section called 'what you have to say' or something like that.
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 21:49:31 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I did not see that place but will look again
Message:
Joe,

I saw no place like what you described other than an achives place that had nothing in it yet or wasn't showing it.

Just the fact that they are screening (and perhaps editing?) what shows up there makes me wonder...

As for Pia and her cancer, she made outlive us all here, nobody knows....we all have a terminal condition called mortality.
And in the Gita it says that the true devotee laments for neither the living nor the dead.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:35:45 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Doesn't it make you want to throttle the lying
Message:
deceitful, insidious motherfuckers : ))))))

Well at least IMAGINE throttling them :))

Good analysis Joe .....when I read it I also wanted to take it apart with a toohcomb butin the end found it so annoyingly false and exasperatingly transparent that I just couldn't be bothered .

Glad you bothered though.

I wonder what ( if any ) the drop out rate of EV moniters is? Surely one or two of them must think ' fuck this for a game of soldiers....my master is a manipulating fraud '

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 09:23:49 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Dermot
Subject: That has happened already, Dermot
Message:
I wonder what ( if any ) the drop out rate of EV moniters is? Surely one or two of them must think ' fuck this for a game of soldiers....my master is a manipulating fraud

Although the person concerned hasn't mentioned it on-forum, I know of somebody who was tasked by EV to monitor the site as service and split as a direct result of reading here.

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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 13:46:31 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: That has happened already, Dermot
Message:
When the time is right, I really would like to see this person post here. would be a guaranteed best of forum!!
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 17:56:45 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: That has happened already, Dermot
Message:
The person is here already, posting occasionally, but hasn't chosen to talk about that episode, as far as I know.
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Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 11:48:37 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Ah ! Not really surprised, Nigel (nt)
Message:
zzz
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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:19:32 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Excellent analysis Joe
Message:
This 'conversation' you are having with William is astute. The following quote seems to sum up Pia's site quite nicely.

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
-Blaise Pascal, philosopher and mathematician (1623-1662)

Not that the site is so evil as it is deceptive and certainly driven by cheerful religious conviction.

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Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 19:16:54 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Wonderful commentary Joe;did you send it to Pia?nt
Message:
qq
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