Jim Sander -:- Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:17:32 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial... -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:23:46 (GMT)

__ __ sivan -:- not all,deb -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 09:31:50 (GMT)

__ cq -:- Apples. oranges ... and donuts? -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:16:01 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- The shot in the arm of devotion -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 17:58:11 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- The shot in the arm of devotion -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:19:32 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- great post as usual -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:15:01 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- GREAT POST, goes along with Bait and Switch post -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:52:18 (GMT)

__ Roy -:- Thoreau said -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:24:36 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Yes, the irony is thick beyond belief -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:15:25 (GMT)

__ Scott T. -:- Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:42:48 (GMT)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:13:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ Carl -:- Well said . . . ALWAYS question authority. -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:18:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Well said . . . ALWAYS question authority. -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:39:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Well said . . . ALWAYS question authority. -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 11:26:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Some good thoughts Carl -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:52:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- An imaginary relationship with a spritual predator -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:06:01 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- Great Post Jim Sander! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:33:23 (GMT)

__ Bob -:- GREAT post -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:27:41 (GMT)

__ __ Tim G -:- GREAT post -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 08:54:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Two more thumbs up - GREAT post! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:41:06 (GMT)

Brian -:- New Journey online -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:02:15 (GMT)

__ Rick -:- New Journey online -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:56:18 (GMT)

__ David M -:- Atlanta...15th st house -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:50:09 (GMT)

__ __ Gina -:- Atlanta...15th st house -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:01:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ David M -:- Atlanta...15th st house -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:17:03 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- Atlanta...15th st house -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 14:49:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ Gina -:- Atlanta...15th st house -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:07:27 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- 'Always be wary of the middleman.' Thanks Gina -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:38:55 (GMT)

__ __ Gina -:- 'Always be wary of the middleman.' Thanks Gina -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:08:50 (GMT)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- 'Always be wary of the middleman.' Thanks Gina -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:20:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ Gina -:- 'Always be wary of the middleman.' Thanks Gina -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 20:26:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Hi Brian! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:01:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Hi Francesca -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 20:05:14 (GMT)

moldy warp -:- CW - You know fuck all about my Nige -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:46:18 (GMT)

__ CW -:- Are you offering? -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 22:54:58 (GMT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Are you offering? CW - You can get your OWN life -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:59:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ CW -:- Are you offering? CW - You can get your OWN life -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:23:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- CW - What the fuck are you 'talkin' 'bout??' -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:36:47 (GMT)

__ __ moldy warp -:- At least not a sacrificial offering like you... -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:20:53 (GMT)

__ JohnT -:- Hear! Hear! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 12:12:41 (GMT)

__ __ CW -:- He! Her!??? -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 22:59:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ JohnT -:- I'll take that as a 'yes', then. -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 08:28:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- He! Her!???---CW - you're an ASSHOLE -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 23:30:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ CW -:- ARSEHOLE? You doing the talking.... -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:13:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Own up you drongo... -:- Catweasel is an ex-pat Brit... -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:29:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Catweasel is an ex-pat Brit... -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:33:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ouud -:- 'ex-patriate' nt -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 15:50:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Same old rhetoric - CW - aren't you getting tired -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:27:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- M/sPredictable -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:37:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Whaa? Is this Forum about KNOWLEDGE? NO. -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:32:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Me Again -:- CW is jerk -- Doo dah, doo-dah, CW is a jerk -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 23:35:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Doo dah, doo-dah, Another Threat, Doo-dah? -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:18:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Did I threaten to call your boss? NO...... -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:24:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- NO......just more hate? -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:19:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- EV - CW needs a new 'spin' -- Hate is wearing out -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:49:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- NO......just more incoherent dribble about whaaa? -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:32:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Analyse THIS -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:56:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Analyse THIS -- Nothing as usual to analyze -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 03:14:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I think you analyzed Catweasel very well, Deborah -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 08:10:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cw -:- I think you analyzed Catweasel very well, Deborah -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 12:07:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You lost me, Pussy -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 18:00:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Analyse THIS -- Try again -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 08:07:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Analyse THIS -- Forgot something important -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 03:27:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Analyse THIS -- Silly, silly. -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 08:09:38 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- regarding 'that' Nige -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:19:32 (GMT)

__ __ moldy warp -:- Hey Selene - me too -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:53:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- know Radiohead fairly well -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:58:06 (GMT)

exie Ji -:- and it was divine ! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:26:07 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- and it was divine ! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:03:57 (GMT)

__ __ exie Ji -:- and it was divine ! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:13:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Hi again! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 22:03:46 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- The book idea -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:31:07 (GMT)

__ __ exie Ji -:- The book idea -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:46:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Disculta -:- YOU know who you ARE, so READ THIS! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 21:42:14 (GMT)

Chuck Sprague -:- ''Bait and Switch'', and the aspirant process -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:42:31 (GMT)

__ wolfie -:- I love to be true -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:39:46 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Yes, your own understanding really is ... -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 03:59:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ wolfie -:- hope we don't get rusty -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 08:29:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- eloquent post wolfie -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:51:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Older yes, rusty no... -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 18:32:03 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- really great post Chuck -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:08:33 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- That's shocking Susan... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 18:51:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Susan's right, it was AWL up front -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 04:28:10 (GMT)

__ Sivan/Sam -:- bonding with my new puppy (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 08:32:44 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Doggies give great darshan... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:45:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ sivan -:- chuck,my doggie has heard the call(nt). -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 09:02:22 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- BEST OF FORUM again!!! I hope ... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:41:22 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Good idea ... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:35:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Yes, didn't get to talk -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:11:02 (GMT)

__ Will -:- ''Participation'' made me end up feeling -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:52:15 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Fake ''Glastnost'' made me offer myself... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:30:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ G -:- You will be synchronized, resistance is futile (nt -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:17:25 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- *** Definitely a Best Of Forum Post *** -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:12:40 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- how students learn to be dogs... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:15:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Will -:- Introductory videos, huge false promise -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 17:25:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Half-assed Yoga taught as religion instead of ... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 22:46:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- Chuck, re: Bait and switch;Teacher and Master... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:40:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- K Lite is really just a stepping stone to ... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 20:24:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, that's a fundamental difference -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:12:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Same product, different pitch... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 20:16:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ Carl -:- You got the full WHAMMY all right -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:04:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Only a partial WHAMMY, I think... -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:51:46 (GMT)

__ Scot J -:- I'd call this satsang, but -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:01:48 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- I'd love it if you called it Satsang... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 09:32:36 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- This be the real satsang! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:42:41 (GMT)

Forum Admin -:- Traffic Report -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:19:25 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- Traffic Report/ these are good numbers -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:51:17 (GMT)

__ salam -:- Traffic Report -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:02:21 (GMT)

__ __ Brian -:- Traffic Report -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 12:19:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ salam -:- Thank for the clarification -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 17:44:06 (GMT)

__ G -:- Graphical chart of traffic -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:59:22 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- Graphical chart of traffic -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:28:18 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- Yay! the premies are here! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:48:16 (GMT)

__ __ kev -:- It's all those unique visitors we get ;-)NT -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:13:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ Brian -:- Unique visitors -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 12:33:05 (GMT)

Jim -:- They're trying to hatch some new ones! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 19:32:58 (GMT)

__ G -:- my take on it -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:19:12 (GMT)

__ Scot J -:- I am trying to hatch some new ones! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:15:20 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- They're trying to hatch some new ones! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:58:54 (GMT)

__ Coach -:- They're trying to hatch some new ones! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:17:01 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- 17 new ones in Slovenia! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:51:18 (GMT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- At least none from Latvia, yet.. -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:39:28 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- 17 new ones in Slovenia! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 12:28:14 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- Uh...come again....? -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:33:43 (GMT)

__ Loaf -:- I bet he doesnt attend (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:08:59 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- They're trying to hatch some new ones! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 19:47:34 (GMT)

Loaf -:- There is something astounding going on here.... -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 18:05:58 (GMT)

__ Bryn -:- Hurrah Hurrah! Hurrah for the Loafing man!nt -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 11:06:09 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Oh, Loaf, you are a flowerchild after my own heart -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:24:56 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- Sappy is good -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:27:54 (GMT)

__ __ Loaf -:- I agree -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:52:50 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- know what you mean Deborah -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:40:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- know what you mean Deborah -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:53:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bob -:- Therapists -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:09:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- I missed the pornolizer !! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:59:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Loaf, here is some Guru Jism pornolized -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:32:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- eg..He was squirted as the spewing 'Lord of the..' -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:21:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigeandmoldy -:- STOMACH CRAMPS FROM LAUGHING.!!! (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 14:04:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- You missed the pornolizer !! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:07:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- thanks Pat and Debs ! hee hee (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:50:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- You missed the pornolizer !! I did too -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:11:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- yep keeping it OT is my specialty OT -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:57:03 (GMT)

__ Roy -:- growing older -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:21:25 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- tired little screeching monkey - I love it :) -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:44:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Roy -:- am now enjoing unfettered depravity ! yipeee! nt -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:36:28 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Great post Loaf -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 18:33:13 (GMT)

__ __ Loaf -:- Oh gosh.. I was so sappy ...forgive me (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:12:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ Gary Epton -:- Not at all, in fact . . . . . -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:47:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Scot J -:- The mind of Epton -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:28:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- Super Marajio Video Game -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:03:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- We could make it UNLIKE Monotony -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:44:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- not so off base really -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:31:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Gary -:- Your Category -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:25:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- awww I wanted to be a thnderstealing bitch !(NT) -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:46:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- To Rawat, we are all bitches stealing his thunder -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:45:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yeah that's about it -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:37:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Brilliant - and we've even got a Latvian! (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:55:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- A Latvian, Latvian Club, Latvian Nites - the plot -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:37:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Latvia (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:32:16 (GMT)

michael donner -:- links -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 17:48:23 (GMT)

__ Katie H -:- links - do you mean Sir David's truth site? -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 17:53:59 (GMT)

__ __ donner -:- links - do you mean Sir David's truth site? -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:57:18 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Links links links and links to links! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:37:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H -:- Hey, J-M, hope you are OK! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:36:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ donner -:- Links links links and links to links! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:00:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ salam -:- to other Links to links that link -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:20:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- J-M, I've just emailed you re this (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:52:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Did you know there are 100s of pages on EPO? -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:40:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Don't forget this is a HATE site Jean-Michel -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 12:38:40 (GMT)

Michele Mitchell Deradune -:- Goodbye, Y'all -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 14:00:05 (GMT)

__ cq -:- like I'll miss YOU! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:27:02 (GMT)

__ Scott T. -:- Goodbye, Y'all -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:03:57 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- count yourself lucky -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:30:08 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- Good Luck - Before you leave I would like to -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:39:51 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- But you never answered my question! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:16:35 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- This is a heavy question -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:25:56 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- e-mail is above if you want it -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 18:48:09 (GMT)

__ Silvia Sommer -:- Goodbye, It was time -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:53:39 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Wow! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 19:57:00 (GMT)

__ Bazza -:- Shouldn't that be 'au revoir'? -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:07:14 (GMT)

__ Katie H -:- Happy trails to you, Michele -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 15:43:18 (GMT)

__ Joy -:- Happy Trails -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 15:40:52 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- Happy Trails -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 15:48:58 (GMT)

__ gerry -:- Goodbye creep nt -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 15:14:56 (GMT)

__ __ Scot J -:- Thanks 4 the visit. Take care. NT -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:04:42 (GMT)

Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:17:32 (GMT) From: Jim Sander Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial... Message:

A number of people have asked me to mention how my letters to the Chapel Hill, NC community were received, and what were some of the reactions to them. Also, my 2 hour phone converstaion with Ira Woods, once the letter was received by EV. Ira started out by telling me that my letter was taken seriously, and forwarded from EV to the office of maharaji. I'm not sure what that meant, but I did ask him if maharaji would read it, or if I could talk to maharaji personally. He couldn't assure me of either, which was understandable. The conversation with Ira was interesting; unremarkable in some ways, but quite telling in others. What wasn't said was just as informative to me as what was said. I like Ira;I always felt that he was very intent on his spiritual practice, and not so interested in DLM politics and social climbing as some other big shots I met along the way. I do believe he was at times a bit fanatical in the old days, but so were a lot of people. Our conversation was very nice and heart felt for about the first hour...reminiscing about the old NY 83 St. ashram,divine sales, the electric circus, early 1970's programs etc. That was nice. But I soon became aware of the 'apples and oranges' syndrome as we went deeper into our talk. What I believe is that maharaji's obvious flaws,hypocrisies and manipulations are dealt with in the same way we deal with these same problems with politiicans. If you like the guy, you overlook everything. If you don't like the guy, you notice everything. Look at Reagan....obviously a deeply flawed man who lied to us, but you would never know that from the conservatives version of history. Or Clinton...you either wanted to lynch him if you were a conservative, or you could calmly overlook his pecadillos if you were a liberal. What I see premies doing is obviously overlooking maharaji's blatant lies and deceptions. When I mentioned these things to Ira, he just couldn't/didn't/wouldn't get it. It really was apples and oranges..you couldn't compare the two. He simply did not see anything to be upset about...he told me that he had heard all the wierd stories before, and it didn't bother his practice. Knowledge is perfect, even though some times his mind wants to try and pick it apart. All the other stuff is clutter along the path...doubts to be overlooked. Don't get into all the wierd rumors and such, and you're ok. It simply works, and what's the problem? I finally gave up after about 2 hours, realizing that the whole issue of trust, honesty, ethics etc. was not going to be broached with Ira. He did agree that these allegations and revelations are affecting new people, and they have been reading the site. EPO is hurting maharaji's work, to be sure. But beyond that, not much room for open dialogue. As one friend put it, Ira has an IRA, from maharaji, and he's not going to bite the hand that feeds him, or go against any party line. It struck me as ironic, that the very people who started out as rebellious seekers of truth, wary of religion and dogma, are now desparately clinging onto the maharaji religion and dogma. They have become the religious establishment that they so wisely and warily avoided as young seekers, and are quite threatened by any type of critical thinking, reasoning or heart felt feeling that upsets that apple cart. Rather than search for the truth, they seek the safety of the religion and personality cult around maharaji. Clinging to the illusion of truth, rather than truth. I have noticed the same thing with premies I know from different places. If they're still doing it, they kind of like the religion,the routine of it...something would be missing if they weren't doing it. Yet no one seems to have any deep experience of anything, and certainly nothing that they can or are allowed to articulate. It is dead beyond belief, but most premies are still reluctant to talk critically of it, or speak honestly about it. There is to be no doubt or critical examination of the master. This 'premie blind spot' can be comforting to some. Anything that feels uncomfortable can be labelled a 'doubt'. You simply overlook these 'doubts' and never, ever, 'doubt the master'. It makes life easy, but only if you want to live with eyes closed. The problem begins when this artifical reality that you have created meets the real world reality. The vast majority of new people will simply not ignore all of these obvious lies and deceptions the way that the premies do. They have no need to. In fact, most of them will be hyper-sensitive to anything that smacks of cult. Eventually the blind spot is what will derail this whole thing. Maharaji needs this current 'shot in the arm' of devotion. Recent events like the toe kissing and arti are no coincidence. While it may bolster sagging spirits for a short time, eventually it will catch up, both with maharaji, and the premies. Although Ira and the premies don't see any problems(because they simply cannot afford to see any problems), and blindly forge on ahead with their master's words spurring them on, they will eventually realize that what they are doing is quite immoral. To not tell prospective new recruits about ALL of the maharaji story,is simply unethical, short sighted and foolish. As the truth unfolds,numerous hearts will be broken, bonds of trust shattered,and premies will be looked at as either naive fools at best or cult recruiters at worst. It's ironic that the group that challenged America with the slogan 'Who is guru maharaji?', is now about to find out a lot more about the man than they probably ever wanted to know. Sincerely, Jim Sander PS:I will talk about reactions from other people in next post.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:23:46 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Jim Sander Subject: Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial... Message:

Wow, this is a real good posting. I agree with you about the denial syndrome and it is amazing that even the premies who hear and believe are impotent to react accordingly. Then there are the premies who get on-forum arguing aimlessly without any semblance of logic. They do not understand that the world does not and never did revolve around M. That's why they can't alter their vocabulary when they try and be assertive.They inadvertantly turn the dialogue into a pissing contest because it's beyond them that we have opinions and proof and witnesses and choose to express Ourselves rather than parrot some instructor or other 'hierarchal' figure.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 09:31:50 (GMT) From: sivan Email: sivan28@yahoo.com To: Deborah Subject: not all,deb Message:

i've known a few new prems over last couple of years. They got k and basically said- those techs were a bit silly, we prefer to do this and that-ie: get the same experience without twisting the arms into silly positions- they were people who had already played with yoga and meditation. Two who got k at amaroo said they found m was ok, but prems were bossy and hassled them - glad prems were well trained or maybe m can blame them for not presenting k properly(eventho' he was there.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:16:01 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jim Sander Subject: Apples. oranges ... and donuts? Message:

I wonder if Charles Cameron still owns the copyright to the book 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji'? Imagine it being reprinted by the publishers - can you guess who'd be the first to try and suppress publication? You guessed - none other than the 'boy god' himself - the self-same Prem Pal Singh Sant Ji Maharaj. Guru Maharaj Ji of old, now known as Maharaji to ... a lot fewer than know him by his old name. Irony you call it? Even Homer Simpson could learn from the Maha! (i.e. he could learn what 'Doh!' really should sound like!) . . . Enjoyed your reflections greatly, Jim. Keep 'em coming, won't you? Best, Chris

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 17:58:11 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Sander Subject: The shot in the arm of devotion Message:

Very well said, Jim. I think your analysis is right on. I was interested in what you said about the current devotion revival in the Maharaji Religion: Maharaji needs this current 'shot in the arm' of devotion. Recent events like the toe kissing and arti are no coincidence. While it may bolster sagging spirits for a short time, eventually it will catch up, both with maharaji, and the premies. I wonder what the 'shot in the arm' actually is. He may feel he needs to motivate his most fanatic followers. He might also be feeling a bit ego-devestated himself, and psychologically needs some reinforcement to go on believing he is somebody special. If people are still willing to kiss his feet, he might rationalize, he must be something great, even though he is being trashed daily on the Internet and propogation in the west has been shut down. Maybe he is getting a big desperatein regard to his own mental health?

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:19:32 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Joe Subject: The shot in the arm of devotion Message:

I had noticed, after 1997, that his appearences in the US really dropped off, and he started spending a lot more time in India and Amaroo. It seemed to me that the more time he spent in India, the more he was bringing the devotional stuff to his Satsang in the west. It seemed as if the worship the Indians were giving him made him puffed up with pride, and he started EXPECTING the same devotion deference showed to him in the west, and was miffed when he didn't get it. He even started acting smug and arrogant in some aspriant videos, ridiculing peoples questions. That is when I started to find him really embarassing. No humility. Who would want him as a teacher, much less a Master? Just a theory. Did anyone else notice that? It's been suggested here before that maybe he is having a mid-life crisis. That, combined with his past catching up with him, his chickens coming home to roost, may be making him paranoid and requiring the 'shot-in-the-arm' Jim S. is talking about. At the very least, I'm sure the pressure IS showing.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:15:01 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jim Sander Subject: great post as usual Message:

I remember Ira too. He was very nice to me and my young premie friends. I was sad to hear he was still in the cult. I am sad for almost anyone I know is still there.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:52:18 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Jim Sander Subject: GREAT POST, goes along with Bait and Switch post Message:

below from Chuck S. Nice complements to each other. Thanks for taking the time to put that together. I swore I would stay of the Forum tonight but there's some great stuff on here from recent exes, including yourself. I left in 1985 or so, but I think the whole thing was like a plantar's wart. After I started posting on the forum, I cleaned out some old income tax records and found evidence that even thought I'd left, I still had donated some money (albeit a small amount) in 1994. That was a revalation to me. I believe you are right. The achilles heel is the old fools. There are no ashrams and no nightly satsang and huge communities where people basically auto-brainwash, or auto-convince themselves and each other daily. Those people are the core of the cult. Most of the newbies will never achieve that level of blindness and loss of resonance with the daily realities of life. Namaste, f

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:24:36 (GMT) From: Roy Email: z To: Jim Sander Subject: Thoreau said Message:

Never trust an institution that requires new clothes. Jim, your posts always smack of integrity - many thanks to you.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:15:25 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Sander Subject: Yes, the irony is thick beyond belief Message:

Jim, It is SO true, this point about former 'seekers of truth' now wanting anything but. You know, back in the day when we were fellow 'seekers' with these guys, we were completely open on two fronts: we were open to all we could ever learn or hear about Maharaji because it was all sublimely wonderful, all of it; and we were equally fascinated about the inner or spiritual realm we thought we'd ventured into. We already knew it was nothing less than a direct experience of God. Maharaji made that clear. But we were oh so interested in exploring our own experiences, such as we thought them to be, and in hearing of others' as well. There were no taboos against comparing our meditation experiences, for example. It was all wide, wide open. Now, however, it's so much the opposite on either front. Premies don't want to know too much about Maharaji and they've been brow beaten so much into not trying to make any sense of their so-called spiritual experience, let alone progress along some imagined spiritual path to some imagined spiritual goal, that they're forced to narrow their thoughts, their imagination and their speech to the vague, narrow bandwidth Maharaji allows. They're no longer free to talk about their experience so all they can do is step back a full step and talk about how grateful they are for it, whatever 'it' is. The saddest thing is seeing these guys adapt to those constraints.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:42:48 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Sander Subject: Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial... Message:

Thanks, Jim. That was excellent and insightful. It was rigorously logical, and deeply aware on an emotional level. Scott 'glad I'm not there anymore' T.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:13:15 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial... Message:

I just coined a phrase that I entered in another thread but I think this thread is another appropriate place to post it. It goes to the issue of what made so many of us open to the cult and maharjuju in the first place. Seeking the truth got me in the cult, finding it got me out. In the beginning I had an open mind and an open heart and I wanted answers about spiritual things on a deeper level than I had previously gotten elsewhere. What happened to that inquiring nature once I got indoctrinated into Maserati land was that it was squelched and buried in cult dogma and expectation. I am just starting to get back my awareness and zest for truth that I supressed under the maharaji pile. I believe that one should always examine and question authority and should never relinquish one's will to another no matter who they profess to be. This is a great lifelesson well learned for me.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:18:43 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Well said . . . ALWAYS question authority. Message:

Which doen't mean disrespect, necessarily. But it is funny to note how often 'authorities' of many types frequently construe simple, direct, non-judgmental questions as THREATS. The very asking of any question of them is usually considered a betrayal, when it may truly be a sincere attempt at human-to-human inquiry for mutual benefit. But no, 'authorities' harumph themselves sooner or later into pissy indignation, and then either obviously or covertly lash back. It is a dead giveaway of insecurity. They reveal their humbuggery by this little routine. A real authority on any subject is usually very willing to go into any direction a free inquiry will take. True teachers realize they learn as much or more from their students and their students' questions as by anything else. It used to be said in satsang that a wise man will keep a critic on his doorstep, to help him (the wise man) keep honest and improve his character. Humility used to be considered a virtue. What happened? It seems M is most interested in simply 'being' a Master. 'Teaching' is an action, a responsibility. I think we now see how he deals with responsibility for his actions. Random thoughts here. Regards, C.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:39:41 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Carl Subject: Well said . . . ALWAYS question authority. Message:

Carl, loved your comment: ''It used to be said in satsang that a wise man will keep a critic on his doorstep, to help him (the wise man) keep honest and improve his character. Humility used to be considered a virtue.'' Speaks volumes. M. doesn't want critics on his doorstep, or even questions from aspirants. I remember one video not too long ago where M. was waving around some papers, that were a list of some questions people had asked. He ranted on about questions, as if they were useless and pointless, joking about what possible use were questions? Like questions were all about being confused, and were a nusiance to him. The PWK's in the audiance tittered with approval, like his rantings were some kind of inside joke that they were cued in on. He ended up ignoring the questions, and told some half-baked indian story instead, which I can't even remember, because it seemed rather pointless. Another time, he talked about being bored by answering questions, until someone asked a question he really wanted to answer. That question was, ''What would you ask YOUR master if he were still alive now?'' He got very excited by that question, and you could see he couldn't wait to give us the answer. His answer was: ''I would SHUT UP and listen!!! SHUT UP and LISTEN!!!'' He was quite adamant about it. It became pretty clear to me that he does not like being asked questions. That sort of thing is for teachers, not The Master, apparently. I found his lack of humility offensive and borish. Like I would really want to introduce anyone to THAT. How embarassing.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 11:26:41 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: Well said . . . ALWAYS question authority. Message:

Chuck, this post is brilliant!

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:52:17 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Carl Subject: Some good thoughts Carl Message:

You make a good point Carl, A reasonable question posed is not a militant or disrespectful attack, it is a simple inquiry into the facts. One a true teacher would welcome the opportunity to engage it seems. In retrospect M never taught me anything, I doubt that he even knows my name, and he would not recognize me if he passed me on the street, he is no teacher. As far as knowledge goes, I received knowledge from Regeshwaranand not him, he was nowhere around when that went down, and no, like Richard at 53 I do not believe in Santa Claus. And now this notion that he is my Master stretches the limits of my imagination and that is all that I have left to work with when it comes to him. Ones imagination can be a powerful resource and if it is open to influence to a spiritual predator you are easy prey. Herein lies his power, your power tranferred to him by ones own agreement. That is all a Master has to do, just keep you enslaved to your own powerless position weaved and entangled in some convoluted dysfunctional imaginary relationship. I don't need it, I have regained my own power, my own free will and I'm keeping it

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:06:01 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Brian Smith Subject: An imaginary relationship with a spritual predator Message:

is truely something none of us needs. Well said. It was wonderful to meet you and Paula at Latvian Night SF. Glad you could make it down here. We've been listening to your Demo CD, and love it! It reminds me of some of the best of the Premie music, only better. It sounds a lot freer, no sermons in it! I hope there is more where that came from.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:33:23 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Jim Sander Subject: Great Post Jim Sander! Message:

You just nailed the whole thing of trying to dance with the devil when it comes to bridging the truth about the cult and M with the hangers on of old. The ironic thing is as you also noted is that these people were once seekers of truth, and now they can't hear the truth, their ears are deafened by so many layers and years of illusion, the very thing that they were once trying to escape. This is great post Jim, I really appreciate all of your contributions and read every entry.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:27:41 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: Jim Sander Subject: GREAT post Message:

very good analysis!

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 08:54:04 (GMT) From: Tim G Email: None To: Jim Subject: GREAT post Message:

Excellent Post Jim Iv'e saved your original letters and this new one as what they have to say puts SO clearly the moral dilemma of the cult and I feel that a print out of these is a very powerful enema for those who are still constipated by the spiritual diet of the Hindu business man's regime. Premies really have to bury their heads in the sand and fall back on very vague justifications such as 'it works'. So do drugs and religions if you want to be blinkered!

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:41:06 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Tim G Subject: Two more thumbs up - GREAT post! Message:

Jim S, While reading your eloquent and profound thoughts, I was moved emotionally as well as intellectually. Your compassion for Ira is evident and I believe compassion is a much needed element in this drama. We were all once connected to M&K in the same simplistic way and so I can also feel compassion for anyone still operating at that level. For some reason this brings to mind the day I took a Christmas gift to some friends and they summarily informed me that Santa Claus wasn't real. It shattered my simplistic view of magic and materialistic gain (toys), but made complete sense once I thought it through. I still enjoy the 'magic' and sweetness with friends and loved ones at mid-winter but imagine if at age 53 I still believed in Santa Clause - pathetic indeed. Richard

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:02:15 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: New Journey online Message:

I put Gina's Journey online today. Thanks for sharing your story, Gina.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:56:18 (GMT) From: Rick Email: None To: Brian Subject: New Journey online Message:

So I feel like I learned some valuable lessons from the experience. I have taught my four children, though, to be very careful about all religions, to respect the great teachers, spiritual leaders, healers, wise women and men... they are all around us, to learn from as many directions as possible, and to think for themselves... and to always be wary of the middleman. Okay, I liked this whole journey until that last paragraph. It's understandable how the cult didn't seem like a cult from the periphery (even those of us in the cult didn't know it was a cult. But then that thing about the 'great teachers, spiritual leaders...'. Who are these people anyway? Are they an agreed upon group of people? It seems like everyone talks about 'them' as though there's a consensus. And how can you be careful about religion but respect this unnamed, mysterious group of teachers? And why should you respect them sight unseen? Shouldn't their wares be tested first? Wasn't maharaji touted as a 'great spiritual leader'? Didn't someone start that rumour, and someone else assumed the first person knew what they were talking about, and then spread the rumour? Isn't that how we got in this mess in the first place? Well, at least Gina (short i) got out unscathed.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:50:09 (GMT) From: David M Email: None To: Gina Subject: Atlanta...15th st house Message:

Gina..thanks for the Journey... I was the person who first started the 15th street house in Atlanta..with 10 other Married Premies..we did alot of work renovating the old home...Was Dino Donald involved with the Band ..He lived with us at 15th street he was a drummer ..He played with a guy named OZ ..just wondering and thanks again..It brought back alot of old memories...David

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:01:53 (GMT) From: Gina Email: None To: David M Subject: Atlanta...15th st house Message:

Hi, David. Thank you. I remember that the 15th Street House was really beautiful...I never knew you guys were the ones who had renovated it. Yes, Dino was the drummer for Mandala. I think he had more energy than almost anyone I've ever known; did you ever see him play?!...and he could sell snow to Eskimos! He and his pregnant wife, Dodee, lived at the farm. And OZ, one of the guitar players, lived there; along with Tommy, the bass player; and Robert, the lead singer (whom I married right before we all moved to the farm; we divorced around the time I left DLM). Mark, the keyboard player, was married and lived in town; and Bill, the other guitar player, also lived elsewhere in Atlanta. The band played mostly in the old rock clubs in Underground Atlanta...'trying to shine the light into the darkness' they would say! Great bunch of guys, really. I don't think many premies ever heard Mandala play much except at a festival we went to up in Amherst, Mass...the hours they played in Underground were way too late for people who got up at the crack of dawn...that's about when these guys got home! I don't know where any of them are now except Tommy and Mark who have been in a soul band for the last 15 years with my husband David (who declined to join DLM back in 1973 when the other Atlanta musicians joined). Thank you, Gina

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:17:03 (GMT) From: David M Email: None To: Gina Subject: Atlanta...15th st house Message:

Hey Gina...Wow...Yes i saw Dino Play alot in Undergroud atlanta and also at Amherst...dino and i were pretty close also with dodie...We all worked really hard to restore that home it was beautifull..I never made it to the farm I moved back to Michigan with my wife in 1974..We were involved with the food coop and security in atlanta..Made alot of friends there and always wondered what happened to them...thanks ...Peace...David

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 14:49:46 (GMT) From: Richard Email: post@rmi.net To: David M Subject: Atlanta...15th st house Message:

David or Gina, Did you know Don Hopkin? He and his wife lived in an Atlanta couples house in 1974. Please email me if you wish.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:07:27 (GMT) From: Gina Email: None To: Richard Subject: Atlanta...15th st house Message:

Hi, Richard. I do remember Don and Wendy but I did not know them well.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:38:55 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Brian Subject: 'Always be wary of the middleman.' Thanks Gina Message:

and Brian. Beautifully written and wise words, Gina.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:08:50 (GMT) From: Gina Email: None To: PatC Subject: 'Always be wary of the middleman.' Thanks Gina Message:

Hi, PatC. Thank you, Gina.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:20:36 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: PatC Subject: 'Always be wary of the middleman.' Thanks Gina Message:

Very nice Gina, It's interesting that you and yours were in the musical community. Pat C. and I were talking just last week about how many musicians, artists and writers ended up taking the bait back then, young creative people seem to be so susceptible to the spititual hook, or hoax. I love your moniker Guru Maserati, very fitting, I hope to see you post more here Gina, you certainly jumped in head first with the journey entry, makes me realize that I need to work on mine. And thanks Pat, It was so nice to see you, Chuck and Andy last week, you guys are the absolute Best! Paula and I are forever endeared to all of you and regret that we didn't have more time to spend with you. Took your advice and spent most of Sunday in Tiburon , what a charming picturesque little city, then a lesuirely 2 day drive up the coast 101. We are looking forward to our next trip, we are close so will see you soon again.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 20:26:39 (GMT) From: Gina Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: 'Always be wary of the middleman.' Thanks Gina Message:

Hi, Brian. Thank you. It does seem like the Journeys I've read here on this site are written by very creative people...people who seem to be generally more open and receptive to the creativity expressed in the world around them, therefore perhaps also more susceptible to the sort of hoax perpetrated by DLM, which I have to say, has been very creatively, albeit wrongfully, spun and maintained. What a terrible deception, what a cruel betrayal of so many innocent people seeking truth and a spiritual reality. These Journeys are so beautifully and cleverly articulated. I keep coming back, during the past day since I found this site, to read more of the Journeys, and I'm struck by their poignancy and honesty as well as by the humor, the frank cynicism, the anger, the pain, the forgiveness, the un-forgiveness, and the sighs of relief from some that it's finally over. The more I read here, the more I realize and am thankful for how lucky I was that my DLM experience was peripheral and I could just leave like I did without the suffering that so many others have endured. As for my posting more here, thank you for your kind words of invitation, but I don't know...I've never done this before. A little while ago when I decided to look at what the Forum was about, I was surprised to find that my Journey had been posted here, and that there were comments to which I felt I should respectfully respond. So, thank you. Gina

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:01:48 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: notinherent@yahoo.com To: Brian Smith Subject: Hi Brian! Message:

Don't have your e-mail. Thanks for the CD! My husband doesn't like all kinds of jazz, but he liked your stuff. (He doesn't like frantic jazz -- you know, talking it too far 'outside.' I do, when I'm in the mood, but usually better live!!!) Glad you and Paula had a safe trip back, and it was great to meet you. Now I can see your faces when you post! love, f

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 20:05:14 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Hi Francesca Message:

What a great week-end with the latvians, it ended all to soon. Good to hear from you, and thanks for the thumbs up on the CD, it is still very incomplete, only 3 or 4 of those tunes will make it to the final cut, I am glad you liked it and it was wonderful meeting you and also putting a face to the name. I will send you out an email right away, Love to you too, B

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:46:18 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: CW - You know fuck all about my Nige Message:

You would not know 'finer feelings' (see Jim's 'Pia' thread about to go under) if they whacked you in the balls... You know nothin' worth saying so fuck off you complete moron. (Go and meditate or something equally meaningless...) And wot's this complete shite about 'character'? The one thing PREMIES can't have - YOU SEXLESS ROBOT. Yours was surgically removed by Bhole Shri Fuckingbastardface a long time ago. IT'S COMPLETELY OBVIOUS TO ME THAT YOU NEED A GOOD SHAG. ALSO, PISS OFF FROM HERE YOU IMPOTENT, BRAINLESS TWERP....

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 22:54:58 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: Are you offering? Message:

Yep , that's about the response expected. I'm a little surprised you didn't offer to knock me bleedin head orf! Anyway you better get back to that little love-nest and watch over that ancient Brit aphrodesiac you have simmering on the stove top -boiled tripe. I think a vision of you and Nige sitting their in your digs swilling Newcastle Black whilst sharing tripe morsels....God how could I have not seen the beauty there.....And all those little Pomeranian puppies -Why so many? Oh you raise them organically? You give them names?And all you feed them is Black Pud? Oh it just sounds blissful.....

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:59:31 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: CW Subject: Are you offering? CW - You can get your OWN life Message:

You are desperately crying out for a LIFE...Know why? FuckForBrains took your life away and left you with a SUBJECTIVE experience of LOVE, BLISS... CW-These are cult insults! People in the REAL world don't talk like that. They swear and say obscene things when they're pissed (which usually happens for a better reason other than trying to rescue people from cults). Hee hee, really now,.hee hee..Oh don't get too upset moldy and nige, calm down now, the bad girl who thinks you're not acting like good premies is gone. I believe your life is full of bliss!

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:23:55 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Are you offering? CW - You can get your OWN life Message:

Are you on the level? To quote Nige your brain seems to operate as if it was powered by 'gnat's piss'. I love it when you talk dirty.....Pathos...what qualities,......you must feel REAL proud.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:36:47 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: CW Subject: CW - What the fuck are you 'talkin' 'bout??' Message:

Do you read your own postings? Fuck CW - Go to Satsang! I mean it, you are desperately trying to insult the un-insultable. We do not have your SUBJECTIVE premie fears. You DO! See...

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:20:53 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com To: CW Subject: At least not a sacrificial offering like you... Message:

I can't be arsed to reply to your meaningless garbage Goodbye

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 12:12:41 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: Hear! Hear! Message:

I thought PatC was spot-on when he said the CW persona doesn't make sense - he's THAT deranged. Only an ex (very bitter and twisted, perhaps, at having once been forcibly deprogrammed) could 'do' CW, just as only an ex could do Simon Satsang or Pauline Premie. Did you suffer a forcible deprogramming once, CW?

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 22:59:20 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: JohnT Subject: He! Her!??? Message:

Or some-one who likes to shake the absurdity out of your lofty positions.... I'll give you the tip... X I am not. Now you can get all sanctimonious....

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 08:28:24 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: CW Subject: I'll take that as a 'yes', then. Message:

The first time I wondered if you had suffered a forcible deprogramming you replied... CW: Well then , I've got you fucked then ,haven't I? Very funny really !! Funny? Hmmm. I'd call it a tragi-comedy, myself. Get well soon.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 23:30:17 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: CW Subject: He! Her!???---CW - you're an ASSHOLE Message:

Why arn't you meditating? Why aren't you doing service for the BigHead? Why aren't you having satsang with the BigHead at his home or sailing on his yacht or better still why don't you call PremPal and ask him to take you flying? Oh yea! You're a looser! ooops Forgot---Guess Bad breath is better than no breath at all! Looser at M & K and now a looser here. Having a Subjective experience, CW?

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:13:39 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: Deborah Subject: ARSEHOLE? You doing the talking.... Message:

This is tiring. A little playful dig at some oversensitinve Poms is turning into a hate fest. As usual...........

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:29:15 (GMT) From: Own up you drongo... Email: None To: CW Subject: Catweasel is an ex-pat Brit... Message:

pom diddly om pom pom...

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:33:45 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Own up you drongo... Subject: Catweasel is an ex-pat Brit... Message:

What does that (ex-pat) mean?

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 15:50:38 (GMT) From: ouud Email: None To: Deborah Subject: 'ex-patriate' nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:27:43 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: CW Subject: Same old rhetoric - CW - aren't you getting tired Message:

CW- Please - you think you are NOT doing what YOU are accusing others, pleeze. Don't you understand you can't BrainWash us...we're not premies? Premies think the rules of the world or reality of the world excludes them...they're right.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:37:50 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: Deborah Subject: M/sPredictable Message:

You think this has got ANYTHING to do having K? Dream on. This slug fest could happen anywhere, anytime! It USED to be a certain way. No more.........

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:32:01 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: CW Subject: Whaa? Is this Forum about KNOWLEDGE? NO. Message:

It's all about the FuckHead and his unfortunatly duped followers. CW, What made you think this forum was about Knowledge? Where do you see the sign that says, Come In -- We would like to tell you all about Knowledge. Your Master is a FRAUD...yes, a fraud...AND...That's the only knowledge that we want to propagate, here. Go to It-Aint-So if you want to hear about knowledge. Oh yea! They're only talking about Cults. Copycats!!

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 23:35:35 (GMT) From: Me Again Email: None To: Deborah Subject: CW is jerk -- Doo dah, doo-dah, CW is a jerk Message:

ah-dee doo-da-day. You're just a bug! CW...does your boss know you're on line, fighting with CultBusters. Nope--perhaps this is your job, naw...my first impression is right. You're just a looser.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:18:37 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: Me Again Subject: Doo dah, doo-dah, Another Threat, Doo-dah? Message:

Assumptions, assumptions. Hey I've got an idea! Ring my boss! Didn't I read somewhere about such threats? Was it a new web page? It aint so! Is it? Be my guest -we'll look forward to the call...

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:24:18 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: CW Subject: Did I threaten to call your boss? NO...... Message:

I just asked if your boss knew that you were HARRASSING an ANTI-Cult Forum during work time. What gave you the impression I was going to call them? Paranoid? Should you be? Good News: At least you are proving that you're with the living by addressing something said. Do you think spending your time here harrassing is a symptom of indominatable Premie Love. Do you really think anyone here is stupid enough to take those silly high school assertions seriously. CW - Here's a Clue! We don't have to pretend that this is about love. It is about the Hate that that little fuckin piece of Shit you call your Master is about. Do you think he is about LOVE, pleeze. keep readin'

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:19:06 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: Deborah Subject: NO......just more hate? Message:

Your good value Deborah. A living breathing fossil of bile. Cut the crap about the boss. If you hadn't figured it ,either I am the boss or I'm using the inhouse facilities at the sheltered workshop. So keep it up lil guy - your looking like shit

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:49:47 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: CW Subject: EV - CW needs a new 'spin' -- Hate is wearing out Message:

Hey EV--You have to keep premies who want to do service at the EPO fresh. Look what you're doing to this poor girrrl. She can't just keep asserting the 'Hate' word. We've become Immune to that word thanks to the aimless and over-indulgent usage. CW, skip Satsang. That was a facetious thing to say. Call a friend. Roll a joint, pour a glass of wine and kick back with a funny movie. It'll do you good.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:32:45 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: CW Subject: NO......just more incoherent dribble about whaaa? Message:

CW Take a vacation. This is really getting to you. There is no hate, here...just a whole lot of confusion on your part. You don't expect someone to challenge your delirious OffTopic dribble drabble. You yelled loudly about going to your boss (just like the other hateful EX) and telling your boss. So, I am not the one going on ABOUT your boss. And I don't give a fuck what you do or don't do for a living, if you do anything at all. You need to relax...Shit! You're having a SUBJECTIVELY bad experience, aren't you? It's not my fault!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:56:32 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Analyse THIS Message:

Dear Deb Please go and Fuck yourself . You would be the silliest person I have come across here. Go Fuck yourself

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 03:14:59 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: CW Subject: Analyse THIS -- Nothing as usual to analyze Message:

But if you must. Hmmm. Being silly and this is an offense because???? Now CW You made a very brave move asking me to analyze THIS but when I opened the posting NOTHING THERE except a puerile school yard comment. Go Fuck myself...let me analyze that! Okay here goes: A knee-jerk reaction to a person who has gotten to you for making you feel like a fool. Of course, other situations could evoke this kind of response as well, but I think it fits in this context. This is not PremieVille CW - why have you brought all that sillllly luggage with you?

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 08:10:54 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Deborah Subject: I think you analyzed Catweasel very well, Deborah Message:

Though it really is a waste of time and neither is it fair because you've got balls but the pussy weasel has been spayed by its own anonymity. I have tried to behave towards it as one civilized human being to another but in the end it can never amount to anything because I am talking to a cipher hiding behind internet anonymity. FA, there ought to be an understanding here that, if an anonymous poster is here for insincere reasons, we may all respond to it using other aliases until eventually it does not know who it is talking to. Pussy weaselkin, if you are not an ex-premie, you have nothing of any interest to say here unless it is about yourself because we aren't interested in your guru-infatuation. So I for one have washed my hands of you. I've tried three times and have been ignored by you each time. I'm not interested in your gurujism but I would be very interested to know you. So tell us about yourself sincerely and respectfully or stick around anonymously and be driven insane by other anonymous mindfucks aimed at you.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 12:07:08 (GMT) From: Cw Email: None To: PatC Subject: I think you analyzed Catweasel very well, Deborah Message:

Jesus Pat you can be such a moody picture. You know I'm Aussie, babyboomer, male or female(whatever your fantasy), own a string of Racehorses and possibly make a living in the area of LLb. What else do you need?.....a name?what about Bruce or Barry. Shirley or Cheryl?

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 18:00:03 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Cw Subject: You lost me, Pussy Message:

I won't be nasty to you because you do come across as a very needy person. But it's time to stop playing with your poop in the sandbox. What do you want to be when you grow up?

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 08:07:14 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Analyse THIS -- Try again Message:

Nah , just what it says. GO FUCK YOURSELF. Do you need an explanation?

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 03:27:12 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: CW Subject: Analyse THIS -- Forgot something important Message:

When you told me to analyze Fuck You I actually forgot an embarassing silly observation. HATE HATE HATE -- YOU ARE A HATEFUL PERSON - - that doesn't sound like Bliss to me, CW Why it sounds just like the rest of us. Welcome Aboard. Keep up the good work, you're sounding real for a change. Silly me.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 08:09:38 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Analyse THIS -- Silly, silly. Message:

I always sound like this. You like it that way dont you.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:19:32 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: regarding 'that' Nige Message:

He was one of the first people to reach out to me and helped me a billions tons to get away from a life I never ever want to see again. He is intelligent, witty, talented and I am jealous. love ya

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:53:40 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Selene Subject: Hey Selene - me too Message:

Nige's was one of the 3 journeys that enabled me to completely get out of this f**king cult. So much more love here than there ever was in premieland... Hey - jealously is cool - I'm into it too !!! We're listening to Radiohead... (from Nige - happy as truffling premies in gurushit) .. Radiohead.. a perfect antidote to the feelingless premie world... feelings are where it's at... Luv ya too Selene xxx

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:58:06 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: know Radiohead fairly well Message:

Good lyrics. I am into a local band right now. Calexico. Ironically they were playing in SF the night I had to leave.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:26:07 (GMT) From: exie Ji Email: None To: Everyone Subject: and it was divine ! Message:

here comes a new issue of the old saga : Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? Wouldn´nt it be nice to have a book with collected materials to the following points : - satguru goes west- the holy family desaster - knowledge : the carrot for the donkey - the system changes : ashram/mahatmas/festivals/DLM/DUO/EV - the methods of an organisation - the sunshinemaker turns to moneymaker - the story teller and the student - the changing 'mantras' : bliss/mind/grace/devotion/surrender/ commitment/focus/appreciation/trust and e n j o y - the open doors both ways in and out ? - from satsang to Video to the smart card sattelite peep show - satsang and service is today : 'be quiet and pay !' - Maharaj Ji, are you living or hiding ? (open letters) what about the idea ? (didn`nt my first message come through ?)

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:03:57 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: exie Ji Subject: and it was divine ! Message:

Welcome exie Ji Good title.for the book..I think you should start writing the book. Are you requesting that any of us help you? Forum Collaboration? Not sure where you are going with the book thing. Thanks for posting--it's good for us to hear from you and very good for premies and aspirants to witness. Say more about book if you like. Perhaps put OT in thread for the benefit of our less zealous or been-there-heard-it friends. Deborah

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:13:51 (GMT) From: exie Ji Email: None To: Deborah Subject: and it was divine ! Message:

Who is OT ? What is 'flaming' what does it do ? I´m quit new here and the book idea just came when I talked with my wife the whole sunday and so we made these chapters just to realize a little bit more where we have gone through. So I thank you for the opportunity to be in touch with you

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 22:03:46 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: exie Ji Subject: Hi again! Message:

Hi exie Ji...OT means Off Topic -- you type it right there at the end of the subject heading. If you want to comment to a post but don't want to leave message type NT or /nt or (nt)so that people won't go into a blank message. Flaming is when someone comes into the discussion and insults. Ex-premies argue, bicker and banter but generally don't Flame. But sometimes fear-based premies come on line and HOOT,HOWLER, and say nothing but HOOT, HOWLER. It's sad that they have the knowledge of all knowledges but can't say dick about anything. There's a lot of fear going on now because of the success and endurance of the site. We are all individuals with our own way of seeing things but we have this Big big thing in common that binds us together. Stick around.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:31:07 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: exie Ji Subject: The book idea Message:

Welcome exie Ji, The idea of a book has been dicussed on this forum and off forum many times, and exes are engaged in a unseemly race to be the first to publish. If the chapter layout in any of the published works bears any similarity to your suggested chapters, this would be pure coincidence:-) So anyway, what's your story? Always good to know a little more about new posters:-) John Brauns

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:46:43 (GMT) From: exie Ji Email: None To: JHB Subject: The book idea Message:

Thanks for your respond. My story could alone fill a book. From 73 ´till nowadays I´m into it. As it was said : come empty and you will be filled - I´m filled, yes - but if I don´t talk about it, I will have to puke the whole knowledge with the story. Premies should´nt socialise, right, - it´s only the master and you. When I got in 'service' these days to help premies talk with each other I was taught (after all) what service is : you should not care for the premies, but if you really want to do service you should protect Maharaj Ji ! Aha - there seems to be a reason that makes priority number one clear. Your forum is a talk from the heart, bravo and thanks for that - so at least we do now what Maharaj Ji learned us all the years. good night

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 21:42:14 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: darlingwave@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: YOU know who you ARE, so READ THIS! Message:

You are out there reading this, waiting around for your next project. You are literate, articulate, intelligent and an ex-premie. Or maybe not even an ex-premie. Maybe just an observer. I was reading this thread and I went away from my computer and I suddenly got a very strong feeling that we already have a book here, in the archives and other pages of EPO. The discussions between exes, and between exes and premies are sometimes fascinating. I remember years ago I couldn't stop reading a similar thread about another cult, in which they were debating their guru's sexual abuses, and whether the people reporting them were sincere or not. The journeys tell the almost mind-boggling stories from many different angles, like many authors do as a literary device. I'm in the middle of my own book project, but you are not (the person who is going to write this book). You are available, and nothing would be more fun for you than to go through the archives and the information on EPO. There could be interspersed sections of DLM propaganda, followed by people describing their actual experiences, and quotes from the press. The book could keep going back and forth, for example between MJ's satsangs where he says he is the only one, you need him, K won't work without him, and the Radha Soami lineage stuff. Juxtaposed PR from then and now and in between. Dramatic stories of tragedy and intensity and also people like us recovering ourselves. The reader would feel as though they were going on a magical mystery tour from the sixties to now. And if it was done right, MJ would get a lot of - ahem - publicity. Oh, I just love this idea, but I don't have time for it. Good thing YOU are reading this. We will all support you in your project, and you will make great royalties. love Katie Darling

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:42:31 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: ''Bait and Switch'', and the aspirant process Message:

I've been thinking about something ''Been There'' asked me. It was why I feel like the way Knowledge is being presented to aspirants is brain washing, rather than incremental learning. Before I got involved with M and K, I was a seeker, and had explored other religious paths. I had found that some Christian groups made very emotional appeals to recruit members. They would talk about very noble and universal feelings like love, peace, happiness, joy. Jesus Loves You, don't you know? And he accepts you just the way you are, you don't have to do anything to recieve his love, other than accept it. So simple, so nice, just like the people telling you all about it, right? Yeah, right. Once they think you've chomped on the bait, then the REAL stuff comes out: ''Now that you have accepted God's love, you DO want to love him in return, don't you? As evidence that you have accepted God's love, you must now obey his word, as told to us in the bible. And the Bible says, NONE OF THIS, and NONE OF THAT. And you MUST DO THIS, and MUST DO THAT (proselytize and tithe and all that good stuff). And if you DON'T do these things, here is all the terrible things that God's word, the Bible, warns will await you (blashpemy of the holy spirit, hell, damnation for eternity, etc.)'' And eternal damnation for anyone who doesn't buy into the Belief System, including all the people in your life that you love, who don't buy into the BS. Gee, doesn't that make you feel filled with joy? The more fundametalist fringe CULTS even try to make you paranoid of non-believers and evil spirits, and dance with poisonous snakes. Great fun. They would try to suck you in with all this nice sounding, ''God Loves you and all of humanity, isn't it great to love everyone kind of stuff'', and then when they felt they got you hooked, they had this harness to put on you , and the harness was attached to a whole wagon-load of SHIT they expected you haul, their shitty negative-soul-destroying Belief System. YUK! No thank you. So I had seen through that game, when I moved to San Francisco. I had not lived here long, before I got a boyfriend, a good job, eveything was going great, and WHAM! Two tons of steel fell on me, my life went to pieces. The brush with death left me feeling very mortal. I realized life was very precious, and I wanted to stay with that, without having steel beams fall on me to remind me. So when I met these wonderful gay hippy premies, who were so warm and nice, and learned about this guru who could reveal to you an experience that was already inside of you, it was too good to resist. I HAD to find out. But I remembered the Christian bait and switch tactics. I wanted to be certain this was not the same thing. I was assured it was not a religion or a belief system, and that I could experience it for myself. I wasn't asked to give up anything. I was not told ''none of this, none of that''. I was even told that I didn't have to sing Arti if I didn't want to. I was asked to: Keep the techinques a secret. Give Knowledge a fair chance. Keep in touch. Nothing like the Knowlege Vows posted here recently that so many of you had to take (Yikes! I definitely got K. Lite!) I hated the idea of keeping a secret for anyone, but I agreed. I HAD to find out. I didn't know about DLM then, it was Elan Vital now. I was told not to listen to old premies, just listen to M. There were some religious things about it all that I didn't understand or like, but these all began falling away quite soon. It really did seem like M. was stripping away the religion. I learned to enjoy the meditation, and some of the things M. would say. He would say things that I didn't understand sometimes, or that just didn't help or do anything for me. I would just ignore those things. Two things he said that impressed me greatly were, that we shouldn't worry about propagating Knowledge, that is what he was there for. Just leave it all to him. That was around the time that Premie Satsang stopped. I was rather glad that I was not expected to proselytize, because I never could stand the idea that I had to ''convince'' anyone of anything. Another thing he said that really impressed me was, that he never wants to try to talk anyone into believing anything. He said that the day he walks out onto a stage with the intent that he has to convince anyone of anything, is the day he will stop talking about Knowledge. I thought that was just great. Over the next 20 years, I kept in touch. After the first 3 years, I began to ''Support Maharaji's work'' I sent a monthly check. We went to programs occasionally, and collected some videos. We were on the fringe, and didn't get involved the the ''organization''. There were little things here and there, that I felt uncomfortable with, but could not piece them together, so I just ignored them. M. contradicted himself at times too, but as a premie you just get used to that. If he said things that were of no use to me, I just ignored them. In the 1990's, the discomfort factor began to rise. M. started refering to himself as The Master, more and more. I had accepted a Guru, which meant ''Teacher''. M. kept emphasizing how a Master was NOT a mere teacher, but somthing much greater. He began quoting scripture a lot, which is something he never used to do. In fact, when I recieved Knowledge, the premies used to say that scriptures were like ice cubes, frozen and dead, but the guru's satsang was like living water, with a living guru, you didn't NEED scriptures. Now here was M. using scriptures. And not only that, he was using them to authenticate himself as some kind of Master as presented in scriptures. He often talks about the Master in the third person. Darshan began again, (in Amaroo), and he started to insinuate paranoia into his satsang. Spider webs, fish nets, beware of the world and people who don't have this Knowledge, kind of stuff, and constant warnings to NEVER DOUBT. I kept thinking, ''Never doubt WHAT? My breath?!?'' Beware of the ''Doubtmaker''. I did not think of my mind as an actual ENEMY. It was, after all, MY mind. I did begin to have doubts. I began to doubt wether or not I had been suckered into a Bait and Switch after all. You know, ''Here is a nice teacher who will show you something simple inside and how to be happy and enjoy life, and feel real love... isn't it great? Dontcha just love it? Oops! Sorry, I forgot to mention, he's also really GOD, he's the MASTER, NEVER DOUBT the purity of the MASTER. He's your Father, your Mother, your Lover and Friend, he's your ALL to you. Don't you go through that darshan line unless you are ready to show some RESPECT. And sing Arti, like you MEAN it. Think of HIM when you die, and you will recieve HIM.'' Well, I never agreed to any of THAT. I was starting to feel betrayed, like someone was trying to pull a fast one on me. But I didn't really understand what was happening, or why. And since I did have some good experiences being involved with M and K, I kept ''accentuating the positive'', the things I liked or could tolerate, while holding at a distance the more uncomfortable parts. So I clung to the ''Guru'' I had accepted many years ago, and became well aquainted with my own ''Excusemaker''. (Master and Guru are sort of the same thing, right? And one has to be careful about believing everything one reads on the internet...etc.) If you don't listen to the Doubtmaker, the Excusemaker automatically kicks in. I did mental backflips and contortions, till I got more information and pieces started to fit together. I tried to actually get involved more, to see if I could recapture that 'old feeling' that drew me into M and K in the first place. Getting invovled in ''participation'' was great, because it showed me what I was really involved with, make me look deeper and ask more questions, and eventually help me find my way out, by seprating what worked for me from what did not. ''Participation'' made me end up feeling like a resource to be exploited, instead of a human being wanting to share something. Where was that love that drew me into it all in the first place? So why do I think the aspirant process is brainwashing, instead of learning? Because it is deceptive. When you learn, you build up information, and what you learn first supports what you learn later, not contradicts it. I was told at the begining of my 'journey' with M. that this Knowledge was common to every human being, and that the guru simply reveals it to you by showing you some simple techniques. Premie Satsang often made me feel closer to people, ALL people. It seemed to be about something that was common and Universal to all people. NOW, the story is that this Knowledge is his ''GIFT' and can only come from him, and will only work WITH HIM. So, what had once been something that was common to every human being, and had actually made me feel closer to humanity, was now somthing in M's private domain, to be witheld and kept secret. So much for humanity, in fact, they are the ENEMY, because they might make you doubt the high mucky-muck powers of the Master. I began to feel restricted, that I could no longer just feel free to love people, because there was now this belief system in the way. Deja-vu the Fundamentalist Christian experience. Current Aspirants are being fed Knowledge Lite. That is the bait. Once you are in the asprirant process pipeline, you are put through a process of trying to convince you that M. is an essential ingredient to your happiness. The distinction between teacher and Master is blurred, then the ''Teacher'' is switched for the Master, and then there is a wagon load of shit and a harness to pull it with waiting for you, once you have been ''convinced'' that M. is the Master, with whom you cannot do without. M. lied about not wanting to convince people. He tries to hook peoples emotions, and use that as a handle to manipulate them. It's training to get people to trust their emotions to the point of excluding their reasoning minds, so they accept M's contradictions. ''The words don't matter, it's That Feeling that is important.'' Once you're in that space, it's easier to buy into the Master concept, while believing you have no concepts at all. And once you are in that space, that dependency, you are much easier to manipulate. I doubt this is very effective nowadays, I think most aspirants see through it eventually, which is why the drop-out rate is so high. I think they are curious as to what the Knowledge is, they may even like it when they get it, but M. himself is so boring, they drift away afterwards, especially as it becomes so expensive to ''Keep in Touch'', and the cult-like aspects become difficult to ignore. And especially if they learn about the history behind it all, and that the secret techniques are Yoga that is freely given by many teachers. So in short, it WAS ''Bait and Switch'' after all. I liked the Bait a lot better than the Switch. M. really IS trying to convince people that he is the MASTER, to be idolized and worshiped, and he uses paranoia to hold people under his spell, just like so many other megalomania cult leaders before him. He lied and is lying, and it sucks. That is why I see it as brainwashing, and that is why I left. It was not what I was led to believe it was. I am not a resource to be exploited. He doesn't even know my name, and he doesn't WANT to know. Fine. I want no part of it. The truth about anything doesn't need defending, it simply holds up to scutiny, because it is true. It doesn't have to hide behind smart cards, secret finances or a sincere but misguided premie with a terminal illness, like M. does. More than angry, I just feel dissapointed and embarassed. Really embarassed.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:39:46 (GMT) From: wolfie Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: I love to be true Message:

Hi Chuck, this is really helpful. Only my own awarness can lead me out of that belief system I stumbeld in, blinded through my own expectations manipulated by blinded followers and forced through M creating that subtle paranoia amongst his followers. No big evidences can and will help me to find my way out, only courage to trust my very own understanding will make things clear for me. Your describtion is helpful, to see how unnatural things are and were, it's a simple perspective no one should ignore. It's easy to understand without big proofs. thanks .............wolfie

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 03:59:40 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: wolfie Subject: Yes, your own understanding really is ... Message:

your best guide. If anything I said helped you with that, then I am glad. I learn a lot by trying to explain sometimes. Reading other peoples posts has helped me a lot too, and I like to share something once in a while. I think I've also gotten a little ''charge'' out of our local Latvian Night in SF. Meeting so many nice people from the premie-past, made me think a lot about what got me involved in the first place, and what made me want to part company with M eventually. I think I just was attracted to where the love was, and these days, it's not with M's trip, which has too many lies and secrets. I got a nice buzz from the ex's at Latvian night, like I used to get from informal premies gatherings in the Haight-Ashbury, only this was nicer, without an invisable Goober to try and relate it all too. The love, for me, is where the people are, not with Knowledge DVD's, smartcards and video broadcasts, or lies, secrets and deceptions.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 08:29:04 (GMT) From: wolfie Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: hope we don't get rusty Message:

Hi Chuck, thanks for responding. Maybe one day I'll will have the occasion to visit a Meeting from ex-premies. But here in Germany the situation is more on the fringe. I still have a lot of contact to people who call themselfs premies, but don't know what's going on. They have Maharaji more like a 'Talisman' in the pocket and it helps them to remember the blissfull days when we all were young. We still share joy and love and everybody is welcome wether they are premies or whatever they may be, or call themselfs. When I was young or younger it was not so easy to trust my own understanding, maybe all is a matter of growing up. For me it's beyond my imagination that M and this premieworld would attract me again today. I still like to sit and watch how my thoughts slow down and sometimes I get the feeling of blue sky and life itself is my master and to express love and joy is my very own privilege. So in retrospect, I can not say that I haven't learnt anything through all this years. Those were the days my friend we thougt they never end ................Adios ........wolfie

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:51:14 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: wolfie Subject: eloquent post wolfie Message:

Your english is right on when you need it to be. Especially this line, for me: When I was young or younger it was not so easy to trust my own understanding, maybe all is a matter of growing up. Too true, too true. And about life itself being the master, or teacher. love, f

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 18:32:03 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: wolfie Subject: Older yes, rusty no... Message:

Hi Wolfie: I think a lot of the premies hang on to M. for sentimental reasons. We still have friends who are premies too, and we have to respect their decision to believe what they want. They know how we feel, and we agree to disagree about it, rather than be disagreable with each other. I sometimes feel moving on from M. is a bit like growing up, because if I'm honest I really outgrew him a long time ago. I learned a few things but there was a point where I should have moved on. I really like what you said: ''I still like to sit and watch how my thoughts slow down and sometimes I get the feeling of blue sky and life itself is my master and to express love and joy is my very own privilege. So in retrospect, I can not say that I haven't learnt anything through all this years.'' I feel that way too. I'm glad I learned to meditate, I still do the techniques, only now in the traditional yoga way instead of M's way. I've often felt that life itself is the only master I want to be in awe of. And blue skies don't need you to send checks! And love and joy really ARE a privilege, and I've found that I can enjoy them best in a more universal way, without the exclusive restrictions of religious beliefs or concepts. And I also can't say I haven't learned ANYTHING. I have. Maybe part of growing up is just learning what works for you and what doesn't, and knowing when to move on, taking with you and keeping the wisdom you've EARNED. Even our mistakes teach us things and show us what REALLY makes us happy. Und das ist was is wichtig, nicht wahr? ''Enjoy your life'' is good advice, no matter who says it. I intend to do just that. I hope we all do. Herzliche Grusse, - Chuck

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:08:33 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: really great post Chuck Message:

interesting to read from your perspective. I think frankly you were saner than those of us who joined in the '70s heyday....one thing that it wasn't was hidden what was really going on then... I watched arti in the ashram the second night I went to satsang. Complete with swinging arti tray, hindi words and full prostration to a giant photo and an empty chair at the end. Before getting K, Mahatma Jagdeo asked us if we would cut off our heads for the guru. So, I would say it wasn't bait and switch back then....but God knows what made me take the bait. Actually, I do know. I loved the premies. There were truly a lot of nice loving people, and a sense of community, and it met a need I had. Perhaps I felt the rush I got from the feeling of community must mean that the Guru was really what they said....I don't know, I was 13, and very given to magical thinking. I just know that was my hook. The smiles, the hugs, the feeling of being a part of a loving group with a purpose, I know I fell in love with premies first and the guru second....

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 18:51:59 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Susan Subject: That's shocking Susan... Message:

You were only 13 years old! That's incredibly young. What 13 year old dosn't engage in magical thinking? I had heard about that choping-off-the-head question being asked of premies last year for the first time, and was shocked. The premies themselves must have been loving indeed to keep you interested. I know it was the loving kindness of the premies that drew me in. It made me feel SOMETHING must be right about this, because of the good feelings. Good feelings feel good, and the premies with their sincerity inspired a lot of those, even if they were misguided. Joy said once that the good people she got to know were the one thing she didn't regret about her cult experiance, and I have to agree. A lot of great people became premies. Too bad the Goober didn't/dosen't respect them more. He's missing out.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 04:28:10 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: Susan's right, it was AWL up front Message:

I was a hippie, and it was freaking strange to me too. The first premies I ever met came back from India (1971) and came up to our house to visit friends. The woman was nice -- she was warm, earthy and gentle, the kind of person that made me thing the whole wierd trip could be normal. The guy was holier-than-thou. Went down in our basement, didn't introduce himself to anyone, covered himself with a sheet and started meditating. When my roommate who lived in the basement went down there, as well as other people from the house, he took off the sheet and bad-vibed them. Kind of glared at them and then covered himself with the sheet again. Poor guy. Everyone said, 'who is that asshole down in the basement?' But more and more neat people were doing it -- surrendering their lives to the kid I had called the 14-year old 'perfect bastard.' The bait and switch I got was that, once I received K, I was expected to wear underwear and a bra. Also long skirts and tie my hair back and act like a prude. Several months after I received K I went to my sister's Catholic college and the nuns looked racy compared to how I was dressing. I kid you NOT! Years later, when the bait and switch phase that you so eloquently talked about came into being, I smelled a rotten egg and that was my exit song. It stinks, stinks, stinks. --f

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 08:32:44 (GMT) From: Sivan/Sam Email: sivan28@yahoo.com To: Chuck Sprague Subject: bonding with my new puppy (nt) Message:

is much more meaningful than any of his bonding craP.. this stuff is loving and real- i know a dog will give more love than m

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:45:22 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: None To: Sivan/Sam Subject: Doggies give great darshan... Message:

Have you ever seen our dog, Guru Mahamarjie? She and her entire Holy Family give Doggie Darshan.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 09:02:22 (GMT) From: sivan Email: siva28@yahoo.com To: Chuck Sprague Subject: chuck,my doggie has heard the call(nt). Message:

luv it, chuckiji, maltese dogs believe they r goddesses already. I'm training this lovely aspirant- glad there is a doggie master for her! If I had your mail address I would send u a photo- let me know if u want a maltie aspirant- she could be difficult as she appears to have a brain of her own- but she already does pranahm(sp- my indian is getting rusty). cheers

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:41:22 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: BEST OF FORUM again!!! I hope ... Message:

you are saving these long and well though out pieces on your hard drive somewhere. You should pick one and post it as your journey, or make a composite of a couple. This one would make a great Journey post. Love to you, Francesca

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:35:52 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Francesca Subject: Good idea ... Message:

I was thinking of filling this post out a bit more and using it as my journey entry. I think I will. Was great to see you at SF Pigeon Fanciers nite. I was sorry that I didn't get a chance to speak to Mark, but I saw quite a few folks talking to him, I hope you both enjoyed it as much as I did. Love to you both, Chuck

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:11:02 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: Yes, didn't get to talk Message:

... to as many people as I would have liked. Good thing you guys don't live so far away. Wanted to talk to Monmot more too, and a lot of the others. I think your idea about a picnic starting in the afternoon would be great. Maybe you could bring all your pooches. Frisbees, pooches and picnic baskets! love, f

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:52:15 (GMT) From: Will Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: ''Participation'' made me end up feeling Message:

''Participation'' made me end up feeling like a resource to be exploited, instead of a human being wanting to share something. Thank you for saying that, it's exactly how I felt, but until I read this, I was never able to put it into words. Everthing is service 'participation', had to be perfectly done just so. If not you were told, very politely of course, but the constant reminder became quickly aggrivating. Service was no more an expression of how you felt, like in the beginning, it was like following a code to the letter, if not you were repremanded.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:30:43 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Will Subject: Fake ''Glastnost'' made me offer myself... Message:

The new ''participation'' showed me just how awfull things had become. There was no going against the grain, you had to plug in or get out. The chuch ladies loved it, but if felt to me like, join the Borg, or leave. That's why I felt like an exploited resource. I could only offer my time or money, to be used the way other people had decided already. All very polite and proper. There was no wiggle room, I started to feel like I was being swept along by a force that I could not influence, because I was supposed to be serving the Master. There was no ''Glastnost'', it was just a ruse.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:17:25 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: You will be synchronized, resistance is futile (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:12:40 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: *** Definitely a Best Of Forum Post *** Message:

Brilliant Chuck, and of value because you describe a process that us old timers weren't really aware of (at least I wasn't). In particular, I didn't notice the slow move back to devotion in the 90's because I always believed that was what it was about anyway (as I suspect most of the old-timers believe). Thank you, John.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:15:27 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: JHB Subject: how students learn to be dogs... Message:

Thanks John. I've somtimes been reluctant to talk about my experience much because it was K Lite, and I didn't get the full Rhadasoami Whammy that so many of you folks got in the 70's. But I felt in this particular instance, regarding propagation to aspirants, it was relevant, because the way Knowledge and M are introduced to aspirants is the K Lite version. While being involved in the committee meetings and helping out at video events, I found myself liking the aspirant videos better, then started to ask myself why. In the introductory videos, M isn't assuming he is talking to an audience that adores him, so he usually behaves better. He stays on topic more, talks in more universal terms and values. When speaking to premies, he comes off more arrogant and smug, assumes we are all hanging on his every word, wanders off topic, doesn't follow through on ideas, makes weird comments. It's in those videos that the paranoia satsangs happen, and he quotes scriptures and hammers away his Master concepts. He acts disrespectful while demanding respect. They were becoming harder to bear. Occassionally he would say some good sounding stuff, but it was only window dressing to make the You Need the Master stuff look better. Looking at how different the two kinds of videos are, made me realize how he's really doing two different things. The premies are used to him contradicting himself, and hang with it. There are a whole series of color coded videos, that aspirants go through, till they get to the paranoid swaggering ones. The process is the bait and switch. Start with the Teacher, end with the MASTER. I only hope the new aspirants get as put off as I was. Looking back, it's kind of funny I had thought he was striping down the religion and making Knowlege more accessable to the west. Now I think all he was doing was keeping a low profile. Jonestown had just happened, and cult awarness was rising. The ashrams were too visable, so he cut down on the devotion and scraped the ashrams. Perhaps in the late 90's, he felt safe bringing devotion back again. Scientology and the Moonies were going strong, perhaps it seemed safe for him to start again. But cult awareness is still quite high, and he does not have the financial resources or influence those larger cults have. It will be interesting to see what happens.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 17:25:19 (GMT) From: Will Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: Introductory videos, huge false promise Message:

When I would listen to introductory videos, it just came off as one huge false promise. You just have to receive those majic techniques and the doors to infinite joy, god and happiness will open up to you! I remember thinking, 'I wish that was all true'. I've had knowledge for 18 years and it hasn't happened to me, did I miss something? Can I pretend that I never received knowledge and start all over again? Just one huge lie!

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 22:46:23 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Will Subject: Half-assed Yoga taught as religion instead of ... Message:

... mental health, is what M is offering. It seems to me that over time, M's claims about what Knowledge does for you have become less and less. The techiniques have actually become incidental, because the real ''magic'' behind it all is the bhakti ju-ju that you are supposed to get from being devoted to him as your Master. He's teaching Master worship, and if you don't love him as an idol, that belief system doesn't work. Even if you do love him, I doubt it works unless you have faith in the idol, the belief system about who he is. But even then, it's your own faith in the belief system that helps you, not magic ju-ju from anyone. Belief is a powerful thing. I didn't approach the meditation in a religious way, so what I got from it was a kind of rest, and the ability to stay more focused in the present momement more easily. I personaly found that helpful. But it did not solve all my problems, or give me complete peace of mind. There were areas of my life where Knowlege didn't seem to help at all. Desipite M's ridicule of self-help books, I did look at other sources of help. During the hight of the AIDS epidemic, when so many people were dying so quickly, the books of and teachings of Louise Hay were very popular. I started exploring some of her teachings, and discovered that what she was teaching she learned from a dicipline called Science of Mind. SOM in turn came from something called The New Thought Movement, which began in the early mid 1800's in America. Fortunatly these teachings helped me a lot. Imagine my shock when much later, while learning about the four techiniques, taught as Yoga instead of Religion, that I discovered many Yoga teachers teach that one should not even attempt to practice the techniques, until one had first resolved one's mental health issues, and gotten rid of any negative religious beliefs or damaging belief systems. M sure left that out of his special K reciepe! With his paranoia he even created and reinforced negative belief systemes. He didn't want people to do anything that might decrease their dependence on him, the Messiah. The Messiah that doesn't know your name, and doesn't want to know. It would seem he has issues himself he has not dealt with. Hardly someone you can actually lean on for help, except as an imaginary friend. And sure, a belief in an imaginary friend CAN help you, but it's the belief that helps, not the friend, because he isn't real. Thank goodness help and truth are not limited to any one person, and that wisdom is free and from many sources. - Chuck Who is glad to accept real help wherever it comes from.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:40:48 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: Chuck, re: Bait and switch;Teacher and Master... Message:

Chuck- Very good insight about the different levels of videos, one for aspirants, one for premies. I hadn't quite seen that before, but it is true and I now see why there was so much hubbub about not letting new people see certain videos, even though on one level its the same old same old. There is a difference. Although the bait is the Teacher, and the switch is to the Master, it seems more appropriate to me to call it: Switch from this Teacher, or you will MasterBait the rest of your life. Anyway, something like that... Your posts are great, and very illuminating about the new K-lite process ofthe 1980's-90's. La-ex

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 20:24:43 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: la-ex Subject: K Lite is really just a stepping stone to ... Message:

... K Industrial Strength Maharajism. Masturbation, till you work your way up to the Full Mind-Fuck? I doubt that it really works for most people in the west, except perhaps those who are really hell-bent on having a Master to worship. Some people really want that.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:12:07 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: Yeah, that's a fundamental difference Message:

Start with the Teacher, end with the MASTER. That was so different than the trap we Millenium-era premies fell into. For us, Maharaji's grandeur as the Lord of the Universe was the draw. Calling him a mere 'teacher' would have raised eyebrows back then.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 20:16:00 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Same product, different pitch... Message:

My experience with Christians had left me feeling rather wounded. It made me very leary of all religion. When I had the construction accident, and was being crushed (to death, I believed) under two tons of steel beams, I realized that everything I ever believed was just that; things I chose to believe, nothing more. The idea of a Messiah seemed like just another thing people choose to believe, and if M. had been pitched to me that way, it would have had no appeal at all. But the idea of meditation and experienceing something for myself was very attractive. And of course, the idea that it was not a religion or a concept or a belief system had great appeal. Being gay was not held against me, nor was I told ''none of this, none of that''. I felt I had nothing to lose. I was one of those premies who got hooked on the simplicity of it all. I'm sure there were things I should have questioned more, but I didn't want to get turned down for Knowledge before I had a chance to see for myself what it was all about, and besides the process was very easy for me. The instructor I had was not at all pushy, and encouraged me to ignore anything religious, and not listen to the old timers spouting LOTU stuff. I was told in no uncertian terms that guru simply meant ''teacher''. Plus I had a bruised liver, a cracked pelvis, was on pain killers, etc. Smoking grass also made me trust my feelings more, and nitpick less. The gay premies also made quite a bit of fun of the religious stuff, and their warmth and humor was very appealing. Their irreverence for the church ladies and anything religous made me feel safe. The laughter was very healing. I really enjoyed that post you made to ''Cerise'', explaining why premies got involved with M. I feel the ''product'' described was the same one I was offered, only with the K Lite sales pitch. Something for everyone! For the K Lite people, it was the latter half of your description of K that was emphasized, although if you start out with the K Lite perspective, it's pretty clear that your understanding is supposed to ''Evolve'' to the understanding that M. is ''You-Know-Who''. K Lite does not make sense when faced with all the devotional stuff M. is bringing back now. I never knew just how serious the God Stuff was till I started learning about it here. Just for fun, here is the post you made to Cerise: (03-20-01) Hi Cerise, We got into this cult because Maharaji offered a very appealing combo back in the day: the biggest guru bang for the smallest religious buck. On the one hand, here was the 'Lord of the Universe, come with more power than ever before'. He was offering the greatest, platinum-coated, titanium-packaged, exclusive, previously-unsold-in-stores, Knowledge of all Knowledges. It trumped everything. You had a spiritual 'knowledge'? Yeah, right! You got nothing! This was better. You had a guru? Fuck that shit too. Maharaji was such a heavy motherfucker that you wait and see, another year or so there won't BE any other gurus. No, in this darkest of darkest -- we're talking DARK -- ages, He-Who-Cannot-Be-Named-Although-We-Won't-Shut-Up-About-Him, Balyogeshwar, Born-Lord-of-Yogis, the guy who could really kick all the other gurus asses and WILL, just you wait and see, motherfucker, had come. So there! That was one reason. The other was that, ironically, for all his being the Lord of the Universe and everything, Maharaji slyly conned us into thinking that he was particularly NOT into starting some sort of sect or religion (we didn't really HAVE the word 'cult' to bandy about then. That wasn't until after Jonestown, as I recall). Maharaji was so clever that way. Every other group had its belief system, a conceptual framework of SOME kind. Of course they did. It'd be impossible to exist otherwise. There'd be no identity, no nothing. Obviously. However, Maharaji took the con to a new, subtler level when he tricked us into thinking that his was a trip-less trip. Our trickiest concept was that we didn't have any. This one bullshit idea, that we didn't have any ideas, was the biggest trap of all. And, like I said, it made the package so attractive. Not only were you getting the Lord himself but you were getting him without any stuffy, old religion. What a deal, huh? So, yeah, the COG's and the Rajneeshies got to have sex but we thought that we were on a short, direct cruise to the centre of the universe, whatever that meant. The other cults looked like they were just playing around to us. Mind you, I'm sure Heaven's Gate would say the same about us, if only they could.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:04:31 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: You got the full WHAMMY all right Message:

Chuck, your post was extremely powerful. Your analysis of Christian sect psychological maneuvers was spot on, and should be required reading for anybody anywhere at risk. Re the Whammy from Goober Ji. You got the same basic hit as anyone else, perhaps even more painfully drawn out and certainly more deceptively. It may have been worse for you because of that, as being sneakier. Old-timers were happily screaming 'Lord of the Universe La-La-La' with scarcely a ripple of irony. It's our own fault. You had the sneak attack, a slow-acting poison. The Forum, and certainly your heartfelt post, are great antidotes, benefitting you and the many many others who read here. Many thanks, C.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:51:46 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Carl Subject: Only a partial WHAMMY, I think... Message:

When I read about the experiences of the people who got K in the 70's, I see that there is a whole big THING missing from my experience. This thing, I had glimpses of, hints about, but it was being toned down, revised, on it's way out when I came along. I arrived just in time to see the back of it as it headed out the door. Because I stayed mostly on the fringe, too, my exposure was limited. This thing, I guess you could say it was the Heavy Devotional Thing. I guess I got enough of the Whammy to stick around for years, and give money. It seems like most of the other K Lite people drifted away a lot sooner. I almost feel like a living experiment, perhaps one of the first K Lite recipients. But maybe that means I was always a half-baked premie, because I never made the full transition from K Lite to Industrial Strength Devotional K. The emotional hooks never went in deep enough. I'm not complaining! But reading about what I missed out on sure explains a lot. Many mysteries have been solved for me. And I thank you all for that!

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:01:48 (GMT) From: Scot J Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: I'd call this satsang, but Message:

I wouldn't like to downgrade it. It seems to come from straight from the soul. Thanks, Chuck.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 09:32:36 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Scot J Subject: I'd love it if you called it Satsang... Message:

I wasn't asked to give Satsang too often, and when I did, I would sometimes be 'corrected' afterwards by self appointed church ladies, who said I didn't talk enough about the Goober. I loved satsang though, in the Haight-Ashsbury, it was a warm and friendly commnunity. I hadn't felt that kind of warmth from a group of premies for years, until recently, ironically, at the recent Latvian Nite here in SF. Maybe not so ironic, as I think the love we felt really was always our own. Thanks for your comment, I've been enjoying reading your posts here too.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:42:41 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Scot J Subject: This be the real satsang! Message:

Company of truth! love, f

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:19:25 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Traffic Report Message:

Someone asked recently about traffic on the forum, and as we seem to be archiving more often, I've just checked the traffic report. Since the end of May there has been a big increase in messages read here (although there have been other peaks such as March this year). I thought at first it coincided with It-aint-so.org coming on line, but it started a few days before that. Basically, the average number of messages read in May up to the 28th was about 5000. Since then, the average has been about 9000 a day. Here are the daily averages for each month since Jan 2000:- Jun 2001 8959 May 2001 5345 Apr 2001 6577 Mar 2001 8169 Feb 2001 5901 Jan 2001 6321 Dec 2000 3774 Nov 2000 4926 Oct 2000 6047 Sep 2000 4671 Aug 2000 4383 Jul 2000 4479 Jun 2000 4913 May 2000 4598 Apr 2000 3800 Mar 2000 3354 Feb 2000 3127 Jan 2000 2429 So someone is interested in what we have to say. Forum Admin

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:51:17 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Traffic Report/ these are good numbers Message:

compared with the draw for a live Maharaju program or a the total national daily community video event. I would venture to say that these numbers rival and/or exceed what is going on at EV on any given day. The last local video event I attended in Nov 2000, they had 6 people there and 4 of them were the usual churchladies, the other two was me and my guest. For those of you who don't know, I exited in Jan 01, after 6 weeks of EPO review, very fast, Seeking the truth got me in, finding the truth got me out, I hope the same for many of the readers of this site

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:02:21 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Traffic Report Message:

execuse please. Are these numbers relating to messages read/PER DAY? Or are they monthly, am a bit confused.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 12:19:45 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: salam Subject: Traffic Report Message:

Are these numbers relating to messages read/PER DAY? Or are they monthly, am a bit confused. Those numbers are the average number of messages read daily for each month. They reflect the total number of messages read per month, divided by the number of days that the server was up and the forum scripts ran :) Keep in mind that June's daily average may fall, since we're only 1/3rd of the way through the month.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 17:44:06 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Brian Subject: Thank for the clarification Message:

Of course that does not include the downtime when you feel to sleep and ignored us all for a week. is it? :) Hello Katie.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:59:22 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Graphical chart of traffic Message:

Daily averages for each month at FV since Jan 2000 (Jan 2000 at the bottom, Jun 2001 at the top) (need to scroll down a bit, I tried using a background color but the forum software wouldn't allow it) A clear trend! Jun 8,959  May 5,345 Apr 6,577 Mar 8,169 Feb 5,901 Jan 6,321 Dec 3,774 Nov 4,926 Oct 6,047 Sep 4,671 Aug 4,383 Jul 4,479 Jun 4,913 May 4,598 Apr 3,800 Mar 3,354 Feb 3,127 Jan 2,429

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:28:18 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: G Subject: Graphical chart of traffic Message:

try this graph

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:48:16 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Forum Admin Subject: Yay! the premies are here! Message:

Hi premies and welcome! It will be an interesting time, I promise... Thanks, Pia.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:13:29 (GMT) From: kev Email: None To: Nigel Subject: It's all those unique visitors we get ;-)NT Message:

afd

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 12:33:05 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: kev Subject: Unique visitors Message:

'Unique visitors' is something for Pia to get all wet about, but the numbers are meaningless. If I look at her site 3 different times in one day, I'm counted as 3 unique visitors. I'd be interested in knowing the number of 'unique' users who were referred to her site from this site in her first week online (before they could go visit bookmarks). But she probably isn't going to publish those stats.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 19:32:58 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: They're trying to hatch some new ones! Message:

This new on ELK: US and Canadian Knowledge sessions It is a pleasure to announce that Knowledge sessions are being planned for approximately ten cities in the U.S., Canada and Mexico during June and July this summer, 2001. A complete schedule for North America will be available soon. In preparation for these Knowledge sessions, there will be meetings with instructors for people who have been preparing for Knowledge. Anyone who wishes to ask for Knowledge at this time will need to attend one of these meetings. At this meeting, a video will be shown and people who wish to ask for Knowledge will determine, along with the instructor, if this is the best time to ask for Knowledge. The meeting will last about three hours and possibly longer if held on a Saturday or Sunday. In North America,leaflets are being given out locally, which contain attached schedules for a listing of meetings in the U.S. and Canada. If you would like more information about the upcoming Knowledge sessions, please call the Knowledge Information Line at (818) 879-1500 between the hours of 9 a.m. and 6 p.m. Pacific time, Monday through Friday. (emphasis added) Can you imagine what that decision-making process will be like? You know, you can call me a reactionary if you like but what happened to the good ol' days when you asked to have your third eye opened (i.e. receive Knowledge) and the Mahatma, who was only able to do this service because of his fully-surrended consciousness which allowed Maharaji to simply 'take over', looked at you, checked out your soul or whatever it was they did, and said 'yes' or 'no'? If he picked you, it was because the universe (i.e. Guru Maharaj Ji) knew you were ready. You could never know if you were ready. It's simple science. Cosmic law-kind of thing. If he didn't pick you, that was okay too. Not for you to question or try to analyze. Simply an opportunity to surrender more, let yourself go so you can truly be ready to merge with Maharaji when the moment finally arrives. So what IS this shit, anyway? Or what was THAT shit? Just my imagination?

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:19:12 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Jim Subject: my take on it Message:

'...people who wish to ask for Knowledge will determine, along with the instructor, if this is the best time to ask for Knowledge' My take on it: Sounds to me like a further opportunity to mess with the PWWTAFKs' heads. It says 'along with the instructor'. The instructor will probably 'determine' whether it's the 'best time' and make it out like they are doing this along with the PWWTAFK, like the PWWTAFK has some say. If the PWWTAFK doesn't beg properly or doesn't meet 'qualifications' (like disposable income), it will probably not be the 'best time' (get a fuckin job first so you can shell out money). It also says 'to ask', not 'to get'. I read 'if this is the best time to ask' as 'whether they will be allowed to ask'. This is just another hoop they have to go through.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:15:20 (GMT) From: Scot J Email: None To: Jim Subject: I am trying to hatch some new ones! Message:

I asked Norma what she thought of your invitation to post on EPO, and she just kind of got this inscrutable look on her face. I asked again a couple of days later, and she said she was considering it, and today when I asked, she said she might, sometime. She was writing a few things in her journal about M, and has taken quite an interest in some of my favorite downloads. Looks over my shoulder sometimes when I'm wasting yet another hour here. Propagation is afoot!

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:58:54 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: They're trying to hatch some new ones! Message:

I remember back in the mid 70s, when I first went to a K session, I was confused about being ready for Knowledge. 'How can I possibly know if I'm ready?', I asked. 'I don't even know what Knowledge is. How can I know if I'm ready for it?' 'Don't worry', I was told again and again. 'The mahatma will know.' This only led me to wonder how the hell would he know, but I decided to go with the program, so when I finally met the mahatma I asked him if if I was ready or not. He told me it was up to me to decide. I insisted that he tell me. He insisted that I tell him. Since I didn't know if I was ready, I figured that must mean I'm not, so I declined. So, the way I walked away from that K session was with the idea that fucking premies didn't know what they were talking about. If the mahatma was the guy who knew, how come he was telling me I had to decide? From that day forward anything a premie had to say about M or K I took with a grain of salt, and just focused on what Maharaji had to say. Unfortunately, in the few satsang I did hear or read from him, he never addressed who decided if you were ready or not. I finally received Knowledge in 1980, but never really knew if I was 'ready' (as if there really is such a thing, considering what you're finally 'revealed'). It just seemed like it was time to shit or get off the pot.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:17:01 (GMT) From: Coach Email: None To: Jim Subject: They're trying to hatch some new ones! Message:

Jim, In the initial stages of the DLM the one thing that contributed to it's comparatively rapid growth in the West was, above all else, the dynamism and enthusiasm of the premies. There was no control. There were really no rules. A mahatma would, as you say, pass through an area spray knowledge around a bit, upgrade the holy wardrobe at the expense of the local natives and, look for any opportunity to shag anything that moves. For better or worse a lot of people got into it then. Most of the current premies and, so it would seem, ex-premies were around in those days That was the big period of growth. Nothing like it has happened or will happen again. Because it was new, fresh and we were young and innocent. and all was hip. Downhill for the Guru from then, I'm afraid. Maharaji has now, in his wisdom, installed a rigid claustrophobic system. Everything has to be trained, named, strained and, finally drained of all vibrancy and style. Nobody in the West is going to jump through the hoops required to receive knowledge even if they wanted to. And the figures show it. The mahatma, initiator, instructor, knowledge chooser, whatever system has always set a human being above his fellow human being in judgement. It's an axiom that if anyone has reached any sort of position of responsibility in DLM/EeVee they have to graduate as a complete asshole first. Maybe just for that time their life. But still an asshole. I know, I was that man. And who wants to be confronted some grinning skull EV asshole. Like. 'Well, do you think that you're REALLY ready to receive the knowlege of infinity and all the stations to the end of time and beyond.' I mean, what DOES the aspirant in 2001 say to that. 'Hey, I thought you were the one with all the bright ideas around here, Jack. Fuck you. I'm outa here.' We now have the bland leading the blind. The absolute triumph of mediocracy posing as cool. Hendrix woulda puked. Point is, Maharaji and/or the EV decision makers have made all the wrong moves in regard to colonising the Earth with premoids.The reason that the cult even exists today is because of the rapidly aging old guard who set up the ashramic infrastructure from which this whole thing was financed and the initail drive eminated. These is no next wave of enthusiasm. Only seminars. The seminars must be hell. Everything by the book. Notes and notes of notes. Clipboards. Real old style rock and roll. Maharaji has forgotten simple thing. No-one likes to be kicked around. No-one has to take shit from anybody. From him or his sidekicks. At some stage in life we wake up that We were born to be free. Not slaves or devotee's to ANYONE. He needs to go to fucking seminar or something. I enjoy your posts, Jim. Most humerous and always humane. Coach

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:51:18 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Jim Subject: 17 new ones in Slovenia! Message:

From ELK, and I bet Maharaji never went there, which means auto-k by DVD is in full swing:- From 'the sunny side of the alps' Hi I'm from a little European country, Slovenia, where ten days ago 17 people received the gift of Knowledge. Around that time we also started with a web site, providing basic information on Maharaji, his message and Knowledge and all upcoming international and local events. The address is www.ustanova-elanvital.si. The country of Slovenia dwells in the middle of the Mainz-Rome-Geneva triangle, and all the different preparations to go to these events are afoot. © 2000 enjoyinglife.org. All rights reserved. John in another small European country where I hope auto-knowledge never arrives.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:39:28 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com To: JHB Subject: At least none from Latvia, yet.. Message:

If they do, we'll have to change the informal name of the club. Are there any Premies in the Northwest Territories, I wonder? --Scott 'who'll be in SF in September' T.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 12:28:14 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: JHB Subject: 17 new ones in Slovenia! Message:

I don't speak their stuff, but it looks like another EV web site. Can you read it. Any refrence to Pia?

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:33:43 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: Uh...come again....? Message:

At this meeting, a video will be shown and people who wish to ask for Knowledge will determine, along with the instructor, if this is the best time to ask for Knowledge. The meeting will last about three hours and possibly longer if held on a Saturday or Sunday. You mean, like, People Who Wish To Ask For Knowledge ('PWWTAFK's?) will hereafter have some say in whether or not they get it? Perhaps you can bribe the initiator with goods or services rendered...? The mind boggles.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:08:59 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Jim Subject: I bet he doesnt attend (nt) Message:

Hi PatC.. hows things ?

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 19:47:34 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Jim Subject: They're trying to hatch some new ones! Message:

That's exactly what they are trying to do. Rumours are probably flying about people leaving and aspirants running for their lives and M & EV want to catch the remaining aspirants before its too late and also to show the remaining premies that new people are discovering for themselves the Beauty of Maharaji dispite the Hate Mongers efforts to distroy the PukeMaster.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 18:05:58 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Everyone Subject: There is something astounding going on here.... Message:

I was reading and lurking, and I suddenly had a glimpse of a pattern behind all this.. beyond the personality issues of Mr Rawat and behaviour.. and yet not divorced from that. It just struck me that what I/we exes are going through is a sort of growing up. If I speak in generalised tones its only cos I cant be bothered prefacing every assertion with 'for me' or 'it seems to me'.. so please forgive me if I seem arrogant.. I'm on a roll here the whole K/M thing is the symptom of idealistic youngsters wanting something perfect... be it a master or a 'special place inside' where all the compromizes and disappointments of THIS WORLD can be compensated for. I was thinking about how my own sexual frustration led me to become 'spiritual and uptight' - and how frustration with our parents world leads us to seek new ones. Its quite odd when you revisit a childhood toy, and although you may have affection for it there is no desire to pick it up and play with it again. A number of exes have been through a relatively short period of adjustment - given the 20 or 30 years spent wrapped up in M's world view, it is surpriseing how quickly we move past it.. outgrow it. I mean although the posts of Dettmers and Donner's were significant... they were not exactly earth shattering news, except that they articulated and gave nourishment to a very specific and well rooted doubt. Thats why they have had impact on those who were 'ready' to question the view of the master and who did not engage in building new and higher defensive walls of justification. To protect what ? A cherished world view no more universal than a childs safety blanket or ANY faith held by any religious adherent. The details of M's sordid life are in reality no more relevant than the tabloid exposure of any minor celebrity.. and yet within the social circle of Premiedom.. it has rocked a lot of boats to see the mortal, fucked up psychology of the man behind the golden mask. Where does this leave us ? Are we still fascinated by the man (as he would like to believe we are) ? My feeling is NO. There is something happening here which is quite valuable... and that is that we have all shared quite an astounding process. The forces, urges and desires which brough us all to Knowledge in the first place still unite us. We wanted something... we found him and K. We (to a greater or lesser extent) dreamt the dream and fell in love with the Mirage. He knows this, we knows it to... he may think its him, they may think its him...but now we have taken what he taught and opened up a whole new world. Forgive me.. I am rambling, but it seems immeasurably better to have been through what we have and now to be unfolding with each other, than not to have shared this journey. I suppose what I want to say is just this.. I love you guys. We are wonderful...I wont post this if I preview it.. but I hope the magic and the fun and the wisdom and the love that we are continues.. we have all the benefit of our years with knowledge.. but we have each other.. and most importantly, ourselves. Premies.. eat yer hearts out.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 11:06:09 (GMT) From: Bryn Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Hurrah Hurrah! Hurrah for the Loafing man!nt Message:

fgfg

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:24:56 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Oh, Loaf, you are a flowerchild after my own heart Message:

You said: ''I hope the magic and the fun and the wisdom and the love that we are continues.. '' It is continuing both here and in our lives. If the premies could have been at our recent get-together in San Francisco they would have realized why all the juice, the love of humanity, the enthusiasm and idealism has gone from the cult. It is with us. Nobody wore flowers in their hair. They didn't have to. Their inner beauty was more amazing than any flower.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:27:54 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Sappy is good Message:

Loaf, this posting rings so true to me except for one little part. I ventured to the EPO to read passages and get some closure on my past w/Maharaji and premies. Getting closure actually backfired and tore open a part of me that is remorseful about the gullibility, subservience and of course the jobs I quit, bridges I burnt, family and friencs I left behind. I'd like to talk to a specialist about this, but where do I start. I can't even share my sudden depression and pain with people cuz I don't know what to say. I am very grateful that the truth was here when I came. And I'm grateful that I can have discourse about this bizarre secret that's now out in the open to my conscious mind. The evidence is so overwhelming that I had no choice but to swallow the whole thing. p.s.Your right, it's the compilation, not the individualized postings that give the whole story

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:52:50 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Deborah Subject: I agree Message:

I think part of the 'growing up' process is taking stock - I have behaved awfully to my parents and friends ... I was a horrible teenager and an ungrateful (to them) fanatical, self-righteous and smug Premie. And my time around M did not help me to grow up... quite the opposite. However despite my own particular bag of them.. I suspect that regret can be a bit of a trap.. and i dont want to get bitter.. angry yes i have been - but at the risk of being accused of being positive.. I do want to learn from everything in my life.. and if by understanding something about the nature of the trap I fell into, perhaps I can understand a little bit more about my (and human) nature, and perhaps stop someone else from falling into the same trap - and Knowledge is not the only one out there - in fact it even looks and smells like a trap these days. The healthy function of this site simply reacts to the corporate mentality of the controlled culture of the fear riddled Elan Vital. The company of truth is alive and well and here now. Eat your own tongues premies.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:40:21 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Deborah Subject: know what you mean Deborah Message:

I have chilled out a LOT since leaving 3 years ago, but the hurt and depression and heavy duty anger, self-loathing, those were the things that I have had to face more often than not. This site has given me a lot of friendship and support and funny stuff that makes me laugh out loud, but I think my real growth such as it is is due to professional help. It's an individual decision only you know you. It took forever to find a good therapist, the first one I had was too new agey for me and caused me to get even angrier. I read Loaf's post as a description of growing pains. (good post thanks Loaf)

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:53:47 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: stars@uvic.ca To: Selene Subject: know what you mean Deborah Message:

Thanks Selene, I also laugh out loud. My big breakthrough was the Pornolizing Good Fun we had last weekend. it wa like a fantastic cosmic joke, Imagine finding out about pornolizer a couple days after Pia's site was up. Talk about the GRACE...hee hee If you would like to talk to me about the therapy - I would appreciate it. I'm curious about how the therapist took all this. But let's keep it OT. My email is above.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:09:30 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Therapists Message:

For me this was a very difficult thing to find my way. It had a lot to do with some parts of Freud and some popular books I read as a teen. I got stuck all the time trying to make sense of my past and early childhood. With typical premie naivity I thought that when working through this stuff I would magically be able to do everything I could not. I did some counseling, tried rebirthing(very dangerous and very cultish) tried regression hypnosis (this was fun and fruitful at first, but later on I got too many false memories). I had problems with most therapist after a while. (a psychoanalist would say that I projected my conflict with rawat onto the therapist). What worked best for me was information and insight. I had to accept that even though I have a mensa+ IQ I have some neuro deficiencies like ADD and a sort of dyslexia , not for reading, but for spoken word, which makes following directions or instructions extremely difficult, and that my father (and in his family) had similar problems apart from his alcoholism and WWII trauma. It made me able to set more realistic goals and stop overcompensating so much. Taking medication helps me a lot, because with a lot of effort I am able to keep a job now.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:59:03 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Deborah Subject: I missed the pornolizer !! Message:

what was it ? where was it ? is there a link ?

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:32:59 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Loaf, here is some Guru Jism pornolized Message:

'Submersion of the gangbanging mind into the raunching Divine 'Asshole' Light, obedience and service to the cocksucking Satguru with supreme Love for Him, consecration of body, mind and all fistfucks to Him, constitute sublime devotion. Hence is fisted perpetual peace, eternal fucks and salvation within spews lifetime. There is absolutely no other way to achieve them.'(Param 'Cock Sucker' Fucks Satgurudev 'The-Champ' Shri Fists Ji 'Jerkoff' Maharaj - June, 1961, Prem 'Suck my tits dry' Nagar Ashram) Maharaji (or Prempal 'Give it to me' Rawat) - son of Shri 'Up the Arse' Fingerfucks Ji Maharaj, first came to the muff sniffing West from India in 1971, when he was 13. He was then squirted 'Guru 'Jar Jar' Maharaj Ji', and felched many assfucks or 'unclefucks', by fucking meditation sex fights that he banged 'Knowledge'. He was squirted as the spewing 'Lord of the gangbanging Universe' and the blowing 'Perfect Master' and was thought to be the licking thrusting successor to Smacks, Buddha, and many other spiritual squirts: the wanking one and only browning Master. He set up an organization fistfucked Divine 'Dirk Diggler' Light Mission (DLM) which was blowed to be assfucked to browning 'Knowledge' world wide. Maharaji fucked cuntlicks of titty fucks of Western fucks titty fucking the fingering early and mid-1970's but most of these smoochs left his organization within a spanking few wanks. Maharaji is now in his screws. He motherfucks the raunching name 'Maharaji' instead of 'Guru Maharaj 'Motherfucker' Ji', and his organization's name has been jerked to 'Elan 'Pimp Mastah' Vital'.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:21:22 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: PatC Subject: eg..He was squirted as the spewing 'Lord of the..' Message:

He was squirted as the spewing 'Lord of the gangbanging Universe' and the blowing 'Perfect Master' and was thought to be the licking thrusting successor to Smacks, Buddha, and many other spiritual squirts: the wanking one and only browning Master.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 14:04:33 (GMT) From: Nigeandmoldy Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: PatC Subject: STOMACH CRAMPS FROM LAUGHING.!!! (nt) Message:

Hi Pat - and Loafie too...?

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:07:41 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Loaf Subject: You missed the pornolizer !! Message:

Were you on a vacation on Mars....sheesh.... Here you go--I don't know how to set up links or other fancy editing stuff so I'll give you the lower-tech version. 1. Type www.pornolizer.com 2. A screen will appear with an open URL: 3. Type in: it-aint-so.org 4. Piss yourself laughing 5. Respond to this posting and ask me to send ambulence

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:50:21 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Deborah Subject: thanks Pat and Debs ! hee hee (nt) Message:

sheer unadulterated filth... but whatever happened to meat muscle or prime steak lust tube ? I must read the wrong sort of smut.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:11:19 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Deborah Subject: You missed the pornolizer !! I did too Message:

Vacationing on Mars is as good a description as any :) Thanks for the URL.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:57:03 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Deborah Subject: yep keeping it OT is my specialty OT Message:

Just teasing you. Sure I'll email, it's really an interesting story and not really off topic but some of my dear friends here get a bit irritated if I talk about meds or therapy too much.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:21:25 (GMT) From: Roy Email: z To: Loaf Subject: growing older Message:

Nice post Loaf, I liked the notion of m/k being an old toy which no longer has any fascination or interest surrounding it... Before I soiled and wore out my super delux godbod & devotee kit. I would try to imagine what life without my costume would be like. I would imangine all sorts of hideous scenerios ( alcoholism, sloth, and general depravity) I would attribute natural wisdom from my own maturity to superboy and be so gratefull to my toymaster. I now feel sooo much more gratitute ... having walked away from that tired little screeching monkey - I do not want to pass these toys on but rather burn them with relief. ha.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:44:18 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Roy Subject: tired little screeching monkey - I love it :) Message:

What a description of him. So - there's something besides alcoholism and depravity?

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:36:28 (GMT) From: Roy Email: z To: Selene Subject: am now enjoing unfettered depravity ! yipeee! nt Message:

w

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 18:33:13 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Great post Loaf Message:

Keep lurking and commenting! So much of it rings true, and after your comment at the end, I have engaged the editor between my ears for anything I know you would have worded differently had you read it again. The spirit of what you're saying is there. I've only been posting for several months, and I've seen this thing evolve. I was just discussing with my husband how I've been able to clear up a lot of hazy spiritual wishful thinking with the help of my life as it unfolds, but also with the help of people on this Forum. Thanks to you too! love, f

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:12:05 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Oh gosh.. I was so sappy ...forgive me (nt) Message:

Pat.. we must stop meeting like this

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:47:05 (GMT) From: Gary Epton Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Not at all, in fact . . . . . Message:

The greatest fiction writer could not have assembled the cast of characters we have here, all aiding and abetting our release from the clutches of the evil empire. We got yer brainy professors, erudite and sometimes plain rude deep thinkers, we got yer merry pranksters, jokesters, and Dreksters, poets and yer logical de-bunkers and de-programmers, yer new age healers and spiritualists, yer academics & polemicists, logical elocutionists, technicians and archivists, knights in shining armour, lawyers and loosers, irreverent shit-disturbers, and of course we got Thelma, the thunderstealing bitch. We have a mystery, we have one helluva plot, we have a Perfect Protagonist, antagonists, suspense, drama, comic relief, the forces of darkness and light and did I mention Thelma, the thunderstealing bitch. We have yer insiders and moles, your ex-honchos and PAMs, the EVangelists, church-ladies and table-cloth straightening masses. Is it any wonder that some of us are glued here like gold-plate to a toilet? Gotta go, can't wait to see what happens next ....... Gary

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:28:10 (GMT) From: Scot J Email: None To: Gary Epton Subject: The mind of Epton Message:

could create a killer video game with this material. I help out. Aspirant Mario enters the knowledge selection process. On level 19, he enters the EPO dimension . . . WE COULD MAKE MILLIONS!! You could represent the merry pranksters. Sincerely, Ken Kesey

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:03:23 (GMT) From: Gary Epton Email: None To: Scot J Subject: Super Marajio Video Game Message:

Dear Scottster: Good idea and when the proceedings get bogged down you just hit the pornolizer button. Actually, if you really want to make millions you'd be better off investing in an actual porn site. Anyways I'm old-school - working on the board game first, more like Marajio Monopoly - a game for spiritual capitalists, whoever gets the most darshan and the biggest yacht wins. With interesting player pieces like little gold-plated toilets and the like. Let me know if you want in. By the way, I'm still working on that e-mail . . .

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:44:02 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Gary Epton Subject: We could make it UNLIKE Monotony Message:

where the fat rawat consumes territories with an army of subdued and synchronised drones - however the forces of individuality multiply in diversity. One player (or team) could play the evil Empire - establishing mahatmas, communities, Organisers.. eventually Festivals, Ashrams, businesses and finally Auto Knowledge sessions to subdue the populace The freedom Fighters (us lot) could establish sporadic outbursts of hilarity, in fighting, latvian celebrations, exposees and finally pornolizing in order to set the people free- and have the remote control to turn off the jabberring Hut as the prize Its a race Or we could simply adapt 'Mousetrap' into ClapTrap . It is a wonderful life. Douglas Adams (bless him) would have loved this place.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:31:52 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Scot J Subject: not so off base really Message:

So many people have had the cult shit and their kids too. Might be more like you could make thousands not millions but hey, it's worth a shot. I am still wanting to know but afraid to ask which category gary thinks I am in. irreverent no doubt. (?)

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:25:44 (GMT) From: Gary Email: None To: Selene Subject: Your Category Message:

Umm, howabout a combination of poet, prankster and irreverent thunderstealing bitch? luv.... Gary

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:46:57 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Gary Subject: awww I wanted to be a thnderstealing bitch !(NT) Message:

Hello Patty

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:45:42 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Loaf Subject: To Rawat, we are all bitches stealing his thunder Message:

He should have surrounded himself with fairies instead of church-ladies and he may have kept his show on the road.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:37:23 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Gary Subject: yeah that's about it Message:

cute :) love to you too, your posts are great have enjoyed reading them.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:55:03 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Gary Epton Subject: Brilliant - and we've even got a Latvian! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:37:07 (GMT) From: Gary Epton Email: epton@magma.ca To: JHB Subject: A Latvian, Latvian Club, Latvian Nites - the plot Message:

thickens.... by the way is there any premie community in Latvia and just where the hell is Latvia, my old elementary school Rand & McNally Atlas doesn't seem to have your country listed or should I just read yer journal? Gary

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:32:16 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Gary Epton Subject: Latvia (ot) Message:

Gary, Get yourself a new atlas!:-) Latvia lies on the Eastern coast of the Baltic Sea between Estonia and Lithuania across the sea from Sweden. It also shares a border with Russia. The Latvian people have lived here for about 4000 years. Since the 13th century the region now known as Latvia has been in turn part of the German, Swedish and Russian empires. The first spell of independence was between 1918 and 1940. Independence was restored in 1991. I visited for the first time in 1994, and moved here permanently in April 2000. To the best of my knowledge, Maharaji has never been here, nor have any propagation attempts taken place. I am unaware of any other premie or ex-premie living here. The Hare Krishnas are doing OK though!:-) John.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 17:48:23 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: mdonner@netidea.com To: FA Subject: links Message:

is it possible, or desirable in your view, to add a link at the top of forum 5, as well as on the epo home page linking to JM's truth site...or at least the homepage of all the ex sites? i think many folks, regulars and lurkers have bookmarked directly to the forum 5 pages and a direct link to the other sites would be useful at the top of this page...up there with dlm papers etc. what do you think? thanks

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 17:53:59 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: michael donner Subject: links - do you mean Sir David's truth site? Message:

Hey donner - I'm guessing you're talking about Sir David's 'The Truth About Maharaji' site, and his 'Home Page of the Ex-Premie Network'? Just some logistics: The FA's decide what links to put on the forum page. J-M puts links on the EPO site itself. (Warning, he's kind of caught up in other things right now, as you can imagine!) Hope this doesn't sound too bureaucratic :) - it seems to work best this way (no one goes nuts, in other words.) But it helps to know who to contact for what. Am guessing the FA will read your post anyway, but ya never know. Take care, Katie

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:57:18 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Katie H Subject: links - do you mean Sir David's truth site? Message:

yes, i mean sir david's sorry for the confusion

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:37:57 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Katie H Subject: Links links links and links to links! Message:

Links page on EPO I know it's a bit of a mess, but you know, everything is linked to everything ..... You don't question this theory after visitings EPO's links pages !!

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:36:55 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Hey, J-M, hope you are OK! Message:

Give us a call if you get a chance - Brian is feeling a lot better. Love to you - let us know if we can do anything! Katie

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:00:40 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Links links links and links to links! Message:

yes, i now see the link on the home page of epo...i was thinking, i guess of a link at the top of the forum v page...but...thanks

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:20:29 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: to other Links to links that link Message:

one day, when I have time, I will end you a web page Link that is less straining to the eye :)

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:52:56 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: J-M, I've just emailed you re this (nt) Message:

kkkkkkkk

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:40:59 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Did you know there are 100s of pages on EPO? Message:

I'll have to update the figures on EPO's sitemap page, it's nearly 500 I guess now, and I still have dozens in store .......

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 12:38:40 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Don't forget this is a HATE site Jean-Michel Message:

and we all hate Maharaji and hate each other and everyone who dares to set foot here! Yeah, I hate everyone - that's why I built my site. .. Dave

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 14:00:05 (GMT) From: Michele Mitchell Deradune Email: noneedtowrite@deradune.com To: Everyone Subject: Goodbye, Y'all Message:

I must confess do tend to do things 'Big' like a Texan. A lot o' people don't much like us Texans cuz, well, they say we're always boastin' about bein' biggest and best and all. (We know we really aren't, hehe.) But this cowgirl didn't want to just leave you all hangin' after telling a long tail that might twinkle Shaharad. This cowgirl is ridin' off into the sunset with her cowboy love. She is still neither premie nor ex, but her role to play here is done. I'm ridin' off into the Sunrise and hope to see all my Friends there for a Big Hoedown from time to time. Love to everyone -- with my Special Thanks to the Women and Children (you know who you are!!!!!!) just Michele

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:27:02 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Michele Mitchell Deradune Subject: like I'll miss YOU! Message:

you the one who wrote this?: 'It is my belief that FA is a plant of Elan Vital -- otherwise s/he would assist me, knowing full well I have intentions that are honorable'. sheesh. White trash speak with forked tongue - AGAIN?

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:03:57 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Michele Mitchell Deradune Subject: Goodbye, Y'all Message:

You'll be back. BTW, two of my uncles were World Champion Cowboy: Jack Talkington (1947) and Deb Copenhaver (numerous times in the 1950s). --Scott 'never knew a real cowgirl who'd have been fooled by Maharaji' T.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:30:08 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Michele Mitchell Deradune Subject: count yourself lucky Message:

am stuck here !

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:39:51 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Michele Mitchell Deradune Subject: Good Luck - Before you leave I would like to Message:

apoligize for getting off a bad start with you. I have nothing personal against you and probably never will. You said you're not a premie, nor an EX. (Sounds like you had a good conversation with Mark. Good ole Mark. ) Enjoy the ride, I'm glad you found your peace.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:16:35 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Michele Mitchell Deradune Subject: But you never answered my question! Message:

Michele, Anything sexual ever go on in any way between you and Maharaji?

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:25:56 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Jim Subject: This is a heavy question Message:

Jim, Did I miss something? She's obviously a little delicate between the ears, but what did she say that led you to ask this question? Heavy stuff if it's true. John.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 18:48:09 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: notinherent@yahoo.com To: Michele Mitchell Deradune Subject: e-mail is above if you want it Message:

Michele: You can also always get it from Joy. You sound happier. Have fun with that cowboy love of yours. love, f

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:53:39 (GMT) From: Silvia Sommer Email: None To: Michele Mitchell Deradune Subject: Goodbye, It was time Message:

Get you power back: Whatever you feel comes from you, from the grace you were born with. Guru? He is a deceiver liar son a bitch who soon is going to have to pay for having taken so much time of our lives with his shinanigans. the vest for you. cowboy is shit!

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 19:57:00 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Silvia Sommer Subject: Wow! Message:

I think she'd look fetching in a vest. Forget those cowboy denims. Just a vest will do. And send the pics, Michele...

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:07:14 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Michele Mitchell Deradune Subject: Shouldn't that be 'au revoir'? Message:

We'll see you back in your next 'role', whatever that may be. Will it be Red Heels, or Red Heart, or Happy Hedonist, or Christian Star, or banana bai, or Danny, or ........... Yeah, happy trails.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 15:43:18 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Michele Mitchell Deradune Subject: Happy trails to you, Michele Message:

And don't forget to take care of yourself! Best, Katie

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 15:40:52 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Michele Mitchell Deradune Subject: Happy Trails Message:

Take care, Michele, and best of luck in your 'investigations' into the Jagdeo matter -- please remember to read Sir Dave's page, put up below. Take it easy, take it slow, and remember to think carefully about things. See ya back here soon! Love, Joy

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 15:48:58 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Joy Subject: Happy Trails Message:

As Joe says, take it easy and slow. There is much to consider and many folks here have unravelled their belief system / experiences over the course of years of introspection and inquiry. It takes time to evolve and change and from your posts I can tell you are extremely passionate about this. There will be an answer. Peace, Richard who lurked for years while still going to events and ignoring the dissonance

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 15:14:56 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Michele Mitchell Deradune Subject: Goodbye creep nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:04:42 (GMT) From: Scot J Email: None To: gerry Subject: Thanks 4 the visit. Take care. NT Message:

NT

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