Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 06:12:05 (GMT)
From: Jun 07, 2001 To: Jun 14, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


Jim -:- Here's how it's done, Pia -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 02:30:19 (GMT)
__ Scot J -:- A bit alarming . . . -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 15:31:27 (GMT)
__ Catweasel -:- Here's how it's done, Pia -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 02:56:37 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Who are you and What do you want? Just curious... -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 00:32:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Just curious?...then why the oblique MANIFESTO? -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 04:17:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Just curious?...You mean just Dense, CW -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 21:55:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Not in the least my little thick biscuit -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 01:32:52 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- You're not very good at this, are you? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 09:08:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ CW -:- You cant help it Nigel -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 09:40:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'Finer feelings'? I'm feeling fine... -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:15:45 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- You fancy Pia, don't you cat? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:52:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ CW -:- You fancy Pia, don't you cat? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 05:01:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- oh i get it-he pities her. bet she loves that... -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:34:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Yes, Janet... insulting and patronising -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:04:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marolyn Kyntyre -:- Pathetic copout Nigel..Why do you bother Cat? -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 05:26:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Janet's little gem was also as sick as her life -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 11:01:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Ahem, you want me to star with this one, Janet? -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:18:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Read Bazza's reply (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 09:09:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Marolyn, you said your son posts on FV. -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 09:07:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marolyn Kintyre -:- So what? -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 18:03:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I was teasing you. Marolyn -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:32:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ NIgel -:- 'horrified, sanctimonious indignation' -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:12:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, shit, I truly, honestly, no kidding LOL'd -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:47:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- so many ways to approach this -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:31:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Cat being 'Politically Correct'? -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 06:13:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marolyn Kintyre -:- I agree it sounds a little preposterous... -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:37:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Thanks for being honest Marolyn -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 20:36:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- and thank you kind sir! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 17:47:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- And thank you, MK. Appreciated. (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:47:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Bazza. That is pure BULLSHIT -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 15:56:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Cat you just proved my point -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:28:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good one, Baz -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:39:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- But Jim... -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 18:11:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well, it's all awkward around this issue -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 18:42:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'wearing tragic circumstances as a badge of honour -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 21:37:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Bazza, Jim ,Nigel-get down here for the last word -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 02:47:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Bazza, Jim ,Nigel-get down here for the last word -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 09:33:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- You aren't in this for the hunting are you? -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 13:13:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- This is hardly the Oxford Union, Cat. -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 13:50:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- You dont know the Bear joke? -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:50:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- CW - You know fuck all about my Nige -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:36:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Hear! Hear! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 09:24:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Hey Moldy !Yeah you! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:02:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Last word? Promise?:) -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 03:25:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Last word? Promise?:) -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 04:43:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Are you mad? -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 03:15:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Typo -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 03:21:21 (GMT)

Michael McDonald -:- EV PR resignations -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:52:39 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- EV PR resignations -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:13:41 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- personal charisma..... -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 15:24:51 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- EV PR -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:30:43 (GMT)
__ __ Joy -:- Using a woman with cancer is a cheap trick -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:20:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Using a woman with cancer is a cheap trick - Yep -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:25:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- I don't agree that Pia as cancer victim is EV PR.. -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 22:02:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Is she going to become an EV martyr? -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:37:05 (GMT)
__ __ Michael McDonald -:- EV PR -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 02:43:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joy -:- Maharaji's Criticism of Editing -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:45:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- EV PR -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 04:36:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Bhole Ji's band was declared manmats -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:26:40 (GMT)

Jim -:- My answer to Maria (from Pia) -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:47:58 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- And you're not even paid for all this work Jim.. -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:07:49 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Thanks, Jim, right on -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:31:24 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Not an original thought in your heard - typo? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:57:33 (GMT)

kev -:- Only 12 post on Pia site??? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:12:21 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Only 12 post on Pia site??? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:58:47 (GMT)
__ G -:- Another spin doc at it-aint-so. -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:56:21 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- gotta love stats -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:37:11 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- techie stuff -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 06:12:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- alpha ot -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:40:04 (GMT)
__ Moldy Warp -:- It's the term 'unique visitors' - says it all !!! -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:31:57 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Yeah, like walk-ins checking their make-up (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:41:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy warp -:- Walkins??? Are they stand-ins??? Well -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:44:52 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Some Thoughts On Maharaji -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:56:30 (GMT)
__ Moldy Warp -:- Howdaya mean Steve??? pay their dues? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:25:53 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Howdaya mean Steve??? pay their dues? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:44:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy warp -:- Thanks Steve - getya now xx Moldy nt -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:10:51 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- Howdaya mean Steve??? pay their dues? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:40:21 (GMT)

Richard -:- I just registered IT-IS-SO.ORG -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:20:27 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Great ideas everyone -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:05:58 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- Great idea -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 22:50:52 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- what's IASO -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:17:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Sorry it's an acronym, it-aint-so.org = IASO /nt -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:25:37 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Another hit on the WWW is good enough reason -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:18:51 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- I volunteer my American Slang post if you want it -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 14:20:12 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Richard, you could always print our letters -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 13:30:14 (GMT)
__ janet -:- i vote with G-use it to refute watever they put up -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:09:17 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Why go through all this when -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:47:21 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Say It Isn't So - Irving Berlin. haha (nt -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:42:14 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Nice idea, Richard. How to use it..? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:05:51 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- What a good idea! -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:49:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- either chronologically or by logicality (?)nt -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:55:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Chronologically - he's a-logical ;-) (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 13:04:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- good idea, wouldn't even have to say anything -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:00:05 (GMT)
__ G -:- Good -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:00:55 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- Uh, excuse me . . . -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:53:49 (GMT)
__ bazza -:- How 'bout one for fence-sitters -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:36:46 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- Or conspiracy buffs -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:39:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Or fuckwits: it is so , so there ! (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:13:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- he-aint-divine-but-really-is.org (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:41:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- I always thought Agent Mulder's poster -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:44:17 (GMT)

Susan -:- Quotes from Marc Galanters book -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:06:33 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Interesting how much more open things were then.. -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:52:59 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Nige the time-Lord! -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:09:29 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- I thought exactly the same thing Brother Nigel -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 02:11:42 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- Mr L - Maharaji is obsesseds with him sELF nt -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:59:07 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Gimme that ol' time 'loud music of flirtation' -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:01:05 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- ha reminds me of HST's Hell's Angels -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:17:21 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- Yes...Cults: Faith, Healing and Coercion -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:19:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Excellent, did you post that to Pia on her site?nt -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:28:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- yes I did and this to Galanter with cc to Pia -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:16:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigeandmoldy -:- Brilliant and LOL! nt -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:42:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- the Rev seems to have it more together -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:25:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- joking...sarcasm intended! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:30:13 (GMT)

Been There -:- Conversation with Ira -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:05:31 (GMT)
__ Been There -:- Ira Question is for Michael McDonaldNT -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:07:40 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- No, it was Jim Sander -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:21:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim Sander -:- Correct.I'll talk more when I have time to post.nt -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:32:51 (GMT)

Joe -:- Defense based on vague platitudes -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:56:23 (GMT)
__ kev -:- Defense based on vague platitudes -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:35:41 (GMT)
__ Chuck Sprague -:- Denial regarding cults... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:05:12 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Exactly Joe,and platitudes are all they have(nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:33:18 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Joe, junkies have more self-knowledge than pwks -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:10:37 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Remember the triangle* -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:00:05 (GMT)

bazza -:- Pia's site full of MANIACS -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:45:14 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- MANIAC - Maharaji admirer not in a cult -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:29:09 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Pia's site full of MANIACS -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:50:24 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- or Pia Maniac Syndrome ? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:13:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- PMS - that's naughty Selene - but I like it ! nt -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:31:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- PMS - well it's sorta on my mind -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:42:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- PMS - well it's sorta on my mind -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:56:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- PMS - an off topic that regularly appears :) -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:05:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Pia MANIAC Syndrome it is then ... as long as -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:11:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- oops I was not PC again? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:18:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- oops I was not PC again - worry not -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:38:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'How do you solve a problem like Maria?' -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:27:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mOLDY WARP -:- 'How do you catch a clod and pin it down' oops -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:42:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- youse guys need to speak english ya know -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:49:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- I don't :0 -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 02:34:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I don't either -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:58:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy warp -:- youse guys need to speak english -sorry Selene -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:56:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- oh! -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:59:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy warp -:- Luvya too selene - no more ZOMBIE land for us babe -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:03:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- not blonde Katie don't kill me -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:13:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hey, I'm smarter than I look :) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 13:40:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- you are smart of course -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:04:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Sorry Katie !! xx nt -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:37:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- No worries Selene nightie night xxxx Moldy -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:12:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Hi Moldy! (response from inactive) (ot) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:05:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Because I'm blonde...OT/NT -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 17:45:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Hi Stonor (OT) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:13:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Hi Moldy (OT) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 14:41:25 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Pia's site full of MANIACS -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:49:47 (GMT)

Dermot -:- Tonette...'ex-lover label' -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:18:44 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Tonette...'ex-lover label' -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:01:28 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Current PWKs are CLOSET guru-lovers -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:26:11 (GMT)

G -:- What Mili says -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:51:34 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- What Mili says -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:42:38 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Deception a given in a cult -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:56:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Just for the record ... -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:54:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- 'Not at all up front' - exactly, G -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:12:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Yes -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:13:31 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- I bat my eyes -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:28:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- LOL Selene!- what kind of propagation is that? ;-) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:36:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Worshipping the Absurd -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 14:37:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- done with propagation and happy to be -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:52:26 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Mili's looking for a cause -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:53:20 (GMT)
__ __ CD -:- rhetoric -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:57:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- righteousness and revenge ? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 13:13:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- r and r -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:36:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- And you, Chris? Legend in your own mind? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:08:20 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 02:30:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Here's how it's done, Pia
Message:
[Just sent this as a primer for Pia]

Pia,

Here's what you've got to do:

Current Focus

Topic:

Media Manipulation

It has been a long-standing tactic of the ex-premies to defame Maharaji and his work by attempting to get the press to spread their hate-based propaganda for them.

Until recently they have had little success. However, this May, prior to Maharaji's presentation at Versailles, Jean-Michel Khan, a French ex and former instructor, influenced two organs of the left wing press in France to publish distorted pictures of Elan Vital and Maharaji with the intent of manipulating the views of their readers.

They focused their attacks on two allegations 1) Elan Vital is a cult and 2) Maharaji is in it for the money. This is important, not because the allegations are new or because there is new evidence - there is none - but because it was published and thus becomes more believable for the public - by those who don't have reason to believe otherwise.

These allegations are false because ___________. Let's look at them carefully. First, 'Combat' writes __________. This is untrue because _________. Likewise, when 'Combat' states ________, they're far off the mark. The truth, as borne out by _________ and confirmed by ___________ is clearly _________. 'Combat' also alleges that __________. Let's look at this. etc.

This current focus is a chance to present the other side of the story. This forum provides a chance for individuals - as individuals - not as members of an organization, to take a stand and help set the record straight.

Here, then, is the evidence. Be advised that Maharaji and Elan Vital have both undertaken legal action with respect to the above distortions and lies. If only the rabid 'ex-premies' had checked their facts first. Why didn't they write Maharaji or EV if they really wanted the truth? Obviously the truth was the furthest thing from their minds. Let's see now how, if at all, they deal with the real facts. Too bad they never sign their real names to anything. They're obviously uncertain and ashamed of their position.

Something like that, Pia? You got to put your money on the table if you want to play, girl.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 15:31:27 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A bit alarming . . .
Message:
It is a bit alarming to see a lion taking down a nice black and white zebra, but kind of impressive. Very impressive! JH is ON the case!
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 02:56:37 (GMT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Here's how it's done, Pia
Message:
Maybe you should just leave her alone little guy. She's way outa your jurisdiction and you could be accused of upping the Sandy 'moron ' clause approach.
Why dont yah just leave it lil fella
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 00:32:39 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Who are you and What do you want? Just curious...
Message:
I don't get you. Who are you? Are you here to defend the BigHead or yourself? If you're here to defend the BigHead then why am not hearing any opinions, let alone arguments, to the contrary?

If you are here to defend yourself, then why? No one is insulting You...no it's the BigHead and the BigLie that he perpetrated decades ago and doesn't know how to STOP. Why should you be personally insulted that we do not have the same experience and high opinion of, (or perhaps, emotional reaction) to your Master.

You claimed, facitiously I may add, that my emotional reaction is somehow MY FAULT. That my (previous) experience and recollection of reality was only subjective. That it was always Subjective.

In FACT: Subjectivity is a universal truth. However, the subjectivity of my experience or perception was based on an OBJECTIVE reality (or mindfuck as it turned out). And WHO perpetrated the OBJECTIVE framework, BigGuess CW, come on...put the thinking beanie on...come on...

Our subjective (and yes even your perception is SUBJECTIVE) was limited and molded BECAUSE of the OBJECTIVE framework in which it is or was installed.

I am not insulting you personally for not giving up your devotion and subservience to the MASTERbater so why do you have to resort to a personal attack on my personality and level of awareness. I am not blaming the BIGFUCKHEAD for dead kittycats, I am making a very pointed accusation that I would go to court, senate hearings, and other media outlets (which I am currently discussing with magazines and newspapers). Talk to us about what we are saying CW, show us that you are a thinking individual with coherent and sober point of views.

Why don't you start by telling us WHY you are here and WHAT you hope to accomplish and WHAT your point of view is. All I see is you attacking characters. Tell us why you're right, we are telling you why we are!

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 04:17:05 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Just curious?...then why the oblique MANIFESTO?
Message:
What was that all about? Hope you understand it. Talk about snowflakes in Hell
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 21:55:53 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Just curious?...You mean just Dense, CW
Message:
For any one who wants to know what I'm talking about -- read two top postings.

CW, do you really mean you don't understand what I said, cuz that WOULD make you look stupid...really now.

Let's take it reeeaaaallly slow, CW.

Our experiences in life are subjective, YES. I was telling you that our subjective experiences were SHUT to this type of speculation because we all had a Pre-Programmed OBJECTIVE, ie. the dilusion that YOUR CURRENT MASTER is and was the Perfect Master and all the bullshit that went with that. Is that really Difficult for you to discern?

Why are you so defensive, what part of your beliefs are you trying to protect? Rhetorical Q, it's meant for reflection.

p.s. How does it feel to not be able to answer anyone's questions? Not Rhetorical

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 01:32:52 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Not in the least my little thick biscuit
Message:
You seem such a silly self possessed woman Deborah.It's you bathing in the correctness of your X treatise that cant see how boringly purile and one dimensional you have become.
How about this my curious little canuck firefly. How stupid do you consider the wider audience here to be? Say what you like. You simply find yourself standing in a long line of Hellers waxen puppets spouting bile and vomit. Cheers
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 09:08:41 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: You're not very good at this, are you?
Message:
Pia sets up a website specifically to challenge the ex-premie web presence - does it incompetently - yet you say ex-premies should not respond because it is not in their 'jurisdiction'.

We know that even their most polite communications are not welcome on it-ain't-so, but you are suggesting nor should exes talk about it here...

IS that what you are saying, Cat? That is certainly how it reads.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 09:40:08 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: You cant help it Nigel
Message:
Fundamentally ignorant and bereft of any finer feelings why should anyone expect better from a dolt like you.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:15:45 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: 'Finer feelings'? I'm feeling fine...
Message:
Shall I repeat the question?

Pia sets up a website specifically to challenge the ex-premie web presence - does it incompetently - yet you say ex-premies should not respond because it is not in their 'jurisdiction'.

We know that even their most polite communications are not welcome on it-ain't-so, but you are suggesting nor should exes talk about it here...

IS that what you are saying, Cat? That is certainly how it reads.

Guess you could always submit something to Pia's site, since you can neither explain nor justify the nonsense you just posted to Jim.

How about: 'Hi, my name is Catweasel and I'm a Rawataholic. I'm not in a cult because cults suppress open dialogue and are intolerant of criticism.'

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:52:04 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: You fancy Pia, don't you cat?
Message:
C'mon, you can tell us. Your doing the knight-in-shining-armour routine like you did with cerise.

Hey that's OK, nothing wrong with wanting a little Danish pastry mate, she is kinda cute looking anyway.

So when you two met up in Amaroo, did you go explore the bush or what?;)

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 05:01:43 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: You fancy Pia, don't you cat?
Message:
Good one Bazza. The problem was she found it really hard to keep her head upright and was restricted to a wheelchair most of the time - oh yeah ; a real challenge that one Barry. How to get the terminally ill to come across. Hey bazza? Piss off......
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:34:48 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: oh i get it-he pities her. bet she loves that...
Message:
sorry cat--in a meeting of the minds, no breaks allowed. truth doesnt stop for the terminally ill. thyre in it for as long as they're still here. we all are. death has a way of bringing out the truth, too. lying takes too much energy.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:04:52 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Yes, Janet... insulting and patronising
Message:
No more acceptable, IMO, to regard people with serious illnesses as mentally fragile than it would be if they were physically disabled. Most of us will have encountered terminal illness among our nearest and dearest at some time (or will do) and I know in my own experience the person would have been pretty offended if people had treated them as being different or inferior.
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 05:26:45 (GMT)
From: Marolyn Kyntyre
Email: None
To: Nigel and the hate club
Subject: Pathetic copout Nigel..Why do you bother Cat?
Message:
You know damn well what Cat was saying to Bazza - he was saying that the joke about getting it on with Pia at Amaroo was in EXREMELY BAD taste, as Pia is VERY ill. If any pwk said anything remotely like that to one of you people it would bring the fucking house down. You Hipocrites! Janet's little gem was also as sick as her life experience obviously is - yes truth does come out as death approaches, hence Pia's efforts to address your very obvious hate. Still, you're the ones who eat it for breakfast every morning. And Deborah, please don't ask your usual rude question 'who are you and why are you here?' That's unless you're in standing front of a full length mirror. Just make sure you have enough cheap toilet paper for the duration of your infirmity.

See? Trading insults is child's play.

Time to grow up.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 11:01:26 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: Janet's little gem was also as sick as her life
Message:
Excuse me, Marolyn.
'Janet's little gem was also as sick as her life experience obviously is' -

Have we met? Do you know me? Do you know anything about my life experience? You state that my life experience has been sick. That's an interesting statement. I would like to hear about what you know of my life experience.
'Sick.'
Pia is sick right now, isn't she. Very sick, so far as I hear. Terminal cancer is very sick. No more games, no more room for pretenses, no room left for denial, bargaining, maintaining psychological projections or dishonesties that were possible to hold earlier in life, when it seemed as if energy and power were unlimited, and one could be and do and think and maintain anything one wanted to.

I do not have terminal cancer, as far as I know. But then, I have not been to a doctor and had a complete physical in many years. For all I know, I could very well have cancer and not know it. I smoke a lot. I have let my diet lapse, over the years, from when I was a gung ho purist herbal vegetarian. But I do know this much: my life is terminal too. So is yours. So is everyone's. No one here gets out alive.
I also have come to realize that regardless of our physical, emotional, mental or spirtual condition, life makes no special exceptions for anybody. Truth is truth, no matter who you think you are and what you think you have. The sun does not stop in its tracks and wait for me to finish sleeping in the morning before it comes up and lights the day. Time refuses to come to a stop for me when events are moving too fast for me to cope. The bills come due, my stomach growls in hunger, my bladder and bowels demand to be emptied, my body goes on aging, getting dirty, too cold, too warm, pained, sore, tired, ill, whether I am ready for it or not. Life doesn't give me a break and detour around me when I'm put upon to meet its demands.
I have lived with clinical depression since I was probably about 8 years old. No one recognized the signs until I was 23, so for 15 years I was enduring life under the incomprehensible weight of a grey and incredibly draining obstacle. No one gave me any breaks. No one cooed and stroked and sheltered me from the demands of staying alive. I weathered all the usual abuses and insults, insensitivites and callous beliefs that are commonly rained down on humans by one another. I went on with living in the face of it. I wasn't given any special allowances in the arguing department. I was challenged to act and speak and defend my rights, my views, my sense of justice and appropriate behavior, regardless of my particular condition. And I certainly held my own as much as anyone else does.
I spent another 26 years knowing I had Depression, but refused psychiatric care and medication for treating it. I insisted on dealing with it my own way. Again--no special breaks in the life department.
No one backed off and opened the way for me when they heard I had such a condition. No 'oh you poor thing. We didn't know. let us do everything FOR you'.
It sure as hell didn't happen while I was pregnant either. Didn't happen when I was in a wheelchair for half of 1995,either. In fact, I was confronted by Truth MORE starkly than usual, through those passages, rather than less. And my condition was VERY evident to the world, then.
You knew what HAS been sick, in my life experience, Marolyn? Betrayal has made me sick. Having my trust and the very best of my belief and effort to save the World be subverted under false pretenses by a manipulating, materialistic, dishonest, illiterate adolescent from half a world away. Having had my only child, my potential lifework to contribute to humanity, my right to fulfill my real talents, my right to my real relationship with the divine, my societal normalcy and acceptability, my right to put down roots and create a thriving legacy for myself and my own progeny, to have all that I could have had, been and done, torn from me, by coy posturing, feigned innocence, legal gamesmanship and corporate collusion as a result of the specific appetites, demands, orders, notions, commands,intents and desires of one Prem Pal Singh Rawat.

you say
'yes truth does come out as death approaches,'
how much of death and what surrounds it have you studied, Marolyn? I have immersed myself in it with a will, a purpose, an obsession, in efforts to comprehend about it, ever since I stood vigil over my mother's deathbed for 14 days and watched her fade from life in an irreversible coma right before my eyes. Do you know what it is to endure the sight of you mother, dying, inexorably as the days go by, unable to wake her up, unable to stop what you are seeing, unable to return to what was, only last week, last month?
Do you know what it is to be alone in an intensive care room with no sound but the gasping respirator pump startling you every few moments, with longer and longer intervals between the suckig sound?
Do you know what it is to rack your memory for some shred of experience to try and find a way to make things better, and to finally lay all you have on one last spin of the wheel, knowing that you stand to lose it all because of your painful awareness of what you don't know, and to whisper in your not knowing for Jesus to come if he's real, and to help your mother, somehow, becuase you don't know what to do and your mommy is dying?
Do you know what it is to watch the walls turn into living light, and to feel someone behind you, in a room too small for anyone to have entered it, without you seeing them coming in the door facing you?
Have you ever looked into the face, the eyes , of Jesus Christ, standing visible before you, penetrating into your soul while standing on the other side of a hospital deathbed?
I have. I did. He did. He came. I was stunned. I didn't believe he was real until I met him. He came for me, at my call. With 5 million souls alive on earth, he heard me and came for my mother at my call.
ANd without boring you with the details of what passed between us that day, I will tell you that he continued to come to me and let me know he was still with me ever since that day.
She died that night, and was cremated and scattered over the pacific, according to her will. I was not present. There was no funeral either, no last memory of her, save that day in the ICU.
I went into a state of deep shock following her death. Her disappearance from the world. It was as though she had never existed. There was no grave i could go to when I missed her. No tangible proof she had ever lived. Life closed over the spot without a trace.
I spaced away into a state of unreachable catatonic pall. I longed to know where she had gone, of what lay on the other side of the infinite grey expanse that met my mind when i sought for some sign, some crack, some peephole by which to see what had happened to her after she had left 'here'.
The faceless surface was unrelenting, and so, my vacuum was, too. It went on for nearly a year, driving me into madness, witnessed by those all around me, whose presence did not register with me.
I tore down the walls of my room, destroyed it, wiped it out. I moved into an underground stone chamber in the basement and lay on an iron cot with my face to the clammy stone wall, begging to die, to go where she had gone, to know where she was, faced with the incomprehensible fact that she was not. She didnt exist. Anywhere. I went on like this month after month, with no one able to get through to me. I couldnt hear them. I couldnt see them.

You think you know about Death? Do you?

I was taken to a spiritualist reverend in south denver by a friend, months later. I was stunned to feel my mother come into the room while he was talking to my friend. It was my first direct knowing that there was an afterlife. It brought me out of my madness and i was able to rejoin the living again, now teeming with questions, to know about it.
Another 15 years passed before I got an education in it I never expected to get.

On a night in 1991, I was visited by someone I knew had lived and died in my lifetime 20 years ago. The person had been world famous, and I had just come hoe from seeing a movie about his life. I was shaken by the visitation. I heard him. I felt him touch me. He was as old as if he had lived on to his present age. He came back the next morning at my calling him. He came every day. He began to teach me about the world we go to when we leave this world. It was not what I imagined. He brought others to speak to me and teach me, as well. Some were famous, some were ordinary people. I learned volumes from my time with them.
I strenuously tried to disprove what was happening to me. I went to ministers, doctors, psychics, people who had known him when he was alive. No one would do me the favor of dispelling my strange days and let me off the hook so I could go back to my previously 'normal' life and ignore it all. I begged them to. No takers. Every single one of them stood back and told me to stay with it, that it was real and I was not insane.
I didn't just fall asleep at night. He would appear by my bedside and take me over to that world with him, and in the morning I would open my eyes instantly and be 'back', knowing things.
People in this world would come into my life out of nowhere, strike up the subject, tell me things that locked exactly with what I was being shown by my teachers over there, and then would vanish again into the crowd, leaving me shaken and freaked but knowing they were a part of it I was supposed to continue to integrate.
Part of my research was to devour library books about the afterlife, comparing what I was learning with what was in the books. I studied near death experiences as part of this research.
I can tell you this much from my studies:
angels are real. Jesus is real. The afterlife is real. The Light is real.seeing your whole life flash before your eyes is real. there are tribunals, there are councils, there are periodic life reviews held for each person. the great beings we have heard of,--krishna, buddha, Ram--they are all real. all the various gods--norse, greek, roman, hindu, mayan, native american--they are all real and I encountered them personally during my tutelage.

but one thing I can tell you with horrible report:
prem pal singh rawat is nobody, over there. he is unkown. he is no one to them, to anyone. he is not what he presented himself to us as, back in the day, or at the present.
he is not what he says he is.

' hence Pia's efforts to address your very obvious hate.'

if I have hate, it is valid hate. I hate dishonesty. I hate the exploitation of individuals. I hate seeing someone get away with fraud. I hate anyone who would allow a pedophile--Jagdeo--to enjoy free license to force himself upon innocent children sexually, traveling under the mask of purported holiness and honor, in any country in the world, for 25 years, with full knowledge after the first reports, and then instruct his organization to maintain that they can find nothing about it.

' Still, you're the ones who eat it for breakfast every morning.'
I have no choice to be otherwise, not until the perpetrator is brought down, and justice is restored to all those whose lives he has harmed. Those whose lives he ruined, who are gone from this world, will obtain their justice at his tribunal, when he departs from this world and is taken to the afterlife. But while he lives in this one, it is our duty to take up the work of seeing that his actions come to justice while he is here. If we who know do not act, who will?

It is a moral imperative that drives me. A keen intent to see that right is done by all people within my sphere of influence. I can do that much at this late date. I can make up for the damage I did, in his name, while I did not know the truth, and believed whatever he told me to.

It is not a crime to be trusting, to be innocent, to believe what someone tells you.

It IS a crime to deliberately use that trust dishonestly in order to take money, work, time, resources, and all else that you can take from such a person, from such people, from as many people as you can persuade, for the sole purpose of increasing, enriching and indulging yourself, at their expense and to their detriment, under false pretenses--and then to evade the fact, the truth, and the law, when confronted about it. That is a crime of global proportions.

If that makes me hateful, then you got it, baby. I certainly do hate it.
And if you are a willing, voluntary, knowing part and parcel of what he is, what does that make you??????????

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:18:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Ahem, you want me to star with this one, Janet?
Message:
Just kidding.
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 09:09:16 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: Read Bazza's reply (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 09:07:37 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: Marolyn, you said your son posts on FV.
Message:
That wouldn't be Catweasel would it? Or is it Robert Setton? Got a daughter named Cerise? Related to Mr Williams?
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 18:03:44 (GMT)
From: Marolyn Kintyre
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: So what?
Message:

My sone one of those? No, certainly not them! catweasel and cerise I've heard of and I've seen the name 'Mr Williams' but can't remember his words.

No I won't be telling you his identity, that's his business.

Thanks for your welcome last week by the way, you seem to be enjoying yourself.

I don't post here but... sometimes a perceived injustice by a poster sends me into a fit of horrified, sanctimonious indignation. It happens when I watch a tennis match, I start insulting the players! Hope the marijuana cookie kicks in soon...
stay well PC
M

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:32:23 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kintyre
Subject: I was teasing you. Marolyn
Message:
The first time I talked with you you sounded like a little old lady who was up in arms at the rantings on FV and I agreed (not that I don't have rant fits occassionally) because I too am an old fogey.

But then this post of yours that triggered my tease suddenly sounded like all the other folks who start off here polite and then the next thing you know they're ''fucking'' and ''shitting'' with the rest of us. I was amazed at the sudden change in personality.

Did you always spell your first name that way? The only other person I know who spells it that way is Rev Rawat's missus. I was going to tease you more and ask which of your sons posts here, Hans or Amar?

Anyway I just wanted to say I like having you here and enjoy your dry wit and sharp tongue.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:12:47 (GMT)
From: NIgel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Marolyn Kintyre
Subject: 'horrified, sanctimonious indignation'
Message:
..sounds about right. Your words, not mine (Hi Marolyn, do I know you?) but I sort of like your self-deprecation here. I'm into a bit of self-deprecation myself but am not very good at it ;)

I said I agreed with Bazza's reply to you, but would also like you to read my posts to Jim lower down. I hope you'll maybe also re-read this whole thread and understand my offending post in its context. Even without that context, what have I specifically said that you would not agree with?

Whatever. It seems not even the Living Teacher of the Universe can please all of the people all of the time, so what chance me?

Nige

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:47:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: NIgel
Subject: No, shit, I truly, honestly, no kidding LOL'd
Message:
I'm into a bit of self-deprecation myself but am not very good at it ;)

I'm definitely stealing this one, Nige. In fact, I'm going to start a thread somewhere else and use it. What are you going to do? Jump in and say that was YOUR joke? 'll make you look like a fooken looser, doing that, Nige. No, this joke's mine. Good one.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:31:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: NIgel
Subject: so many ways to approach this
Message:
Nigel there are always so many ways to look at something. Depending on hormones diet stress level or other levels of sucktitude (thanks for that word you know who) I can be angry or outraged and hurt or even giving and helpful.

She started that site she knows we are going to look at it and react to it. Shit the site and our reaction may be the most interesting thing in her life who knows? I doubt M in his high - ness is giving her as much.

Don't know why I wanted to post this. Maybe I have lost too many people to illnesses of some form lately. I gotta agree I was surprised at Bazza's post, he openened himself up for CW's retort as only CW can do it. Interesting that.

I have said fuck about 40 times this week due to all the things I mentioned earlier but sometimes, once in a while, I get a sense of how this site matters and what we are trying to say, guess this is one of those.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 06:13:39 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: Cat being 'Politically Correct'?
Message:
Don't make me larf. Catweasel is someone who's been posting here for years under a stupid fake name, avoiding all serious attempts at debate and tossing in his own fair share of vitriol. That he suddenly gets indignant when I make a couple of cheeky remarks about him and Pia, because of the noticable way he sprang to her defence, deserves the label 'hypocrite' far more.

So while we're on about it, what is so wrong, so 'politically incorrect' about suggesting he might have amorous feelings toward Pia? Does the fact that a person has a terminal illness (cancer, I believe in her case) make them any less attractive in your opinion? You think people in her condition should be treated in anything other than a normal manner by their friends? How cruel is that, Marolyn?

Changing the subject somewhat, let me ask you something about hate. Which of these statements do you personally agree with the most:

1) It is always wrong to hate somebody, no matter what they have done to you.

2) It is OK to hate somebody you once trusted implicitly, who then turned out to be a complete fraud and caused you to waste almost half your life in misdirected devotion and wasted opportunites.

3) Same as #2 UNLESS there are still a lot of people who love that person and they take exception to your hatred, then it is wrong for you to hate.

Do try to give a *real* answer, not just one that makes you look good in front of the crowd here.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:37:40 (GMT)
From: Marolyn Kintyre
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: I agree it sounds a little preposterous...
Message:
The socially conscious debonair diplomat catweasel?! mmmm
No offence Cat, you walking warrior, defending fair maidens and lame gentlemen from the battle hungry and insane. Anyone remember TopCat? That's him!

Nothing personal B, I enjoy your humour. Have been watching the French Open tennis (the one at Roland Garros not Versailles). You hit a slightly high lob so we dashed in and attempted a smash. Pretty lame one I admit.
I empathise with your response and know you meant no harm to anyone.

Bazza, in answer to you question I would say 2)

I'm still not sure if I'm heading for no 1) 'No hate of anything' mode in my life. I still have hate and can't help feeling we'll always have it and always lose control every now and then and make an arse of ourselves, or maybe do some good if that's possible. I wouldn't mind being a total ascetic but imagine it to be terribly boring and I don't see well enough to avoid all the ants on the ground.
I think hate is a little like cocaine, you feel like Queen of the universe one day only to find yourself cleaning your vomit off the inside of a toilet bowl the next. Sorry, that was an unecessarily ugly example. It is certainly my desire not to bring hate to this or any forum.

Interesting times.
stay well
M

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 20:36:32 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kintyre
Subject: Thanks for being honest Marolyn
Message:
At least there's hope for some!

So if you agree that hate in certain circumstances is justified, does that help you see where some exes are coming from ?(I personally don't feel hatred toward M., mainly disappointment)

The only thing to debate then, is the question of how valid the claims are from either side, which themselves stem from an individual's personal experience and perspective. It's all that separates premies from exes, love from hate.

But sadly, most of the debate has been one-sided. Most premies will not or are incapable of debate. Take catweasel as one example, all those who contributed to Pia's site as others....all have expressed their viewpoint, but not one of them will thrash it out here (here being the only forum available I know of).

Debating - ie being prepared to substantiate and defend your own statements, takes courage, because you may end up questioning your own long-held belief system. I firmly believe this is a healthy thing to do, but it seems that to most premies the fear of being proven wrong, especially having a lifelong delusion blown away, is just too much to risk and so they shy away from true discussion and prefer to throw their stones from their side of the fence.

Look at the difference with you and I. It's not like I wrote something on this forum and you wrote something on Pia's site. We are engaged in a discussion; you are being open to examine your own mind-set and I am willing to listen to your opinions too. It works. I think you deserve due credit for that no matter whether we end up agreeing on anything else or not.

cheers

bazza

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 17:47:56 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: and thank you kind sir!
Message:
I agree, cat should debate more. He's fun to watch. I'd like to a lot more too. But I end up feeling guilty for surfing too long as it is, I just read a lot and am fascinated enough (usually) not to want to talk. Let's face it one could get seriously carried away with endless interesting conversations. It's like a gentleman's club and a main high street at the same time. There are some great debates on issues, no doubt. Further up the thread La -ex poses an interesting question about the trainings. I attempted an answer but then the cannabis cookie kicked in and I started veering all over the place in my imagination, unable to write.
stay well,

Nigel you're absolutely right, I looked at your thread and there was no cause for criticism or battle stations. You have been unfairly targetted and I apologise for my blundering part in the conspiracy.
M


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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:47:41 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: And thank you, MK. Appreciated. (nt)
Message:
nt.
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 15:56:57 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Bazza. That is pure BULLSHIT
Message:
Fact is lil buddy;you goofed.It simply wasn't funny that's all. I see it sparked the Holy Mother of Los Angeles to spray her self pitying crap from the Bering Sea to Milford Sound and allowed Nigel to sneer more than he usually does.
Now Bazza;you took a shot at a cheap laugh - but it just fell flat on the floor like a big steamy fart.
Your sharper than that.
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:28:27 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Cat you just proved my point
Message:
OK ferget the joke, maybe it did go down like a lead balloon, so fucking what?

But there was more in my reply than reference to that. How about sharing a little debate on my second and third paragraphs? What is your attitude to people who are sick or in some way disabled, do you think it's right to make them feel even more unfortunate by shielding them from the normal rigours of social interaction? That hasn't been my experience, what's yours?

And even though I directed the 'hate' quizlet at Marolyn, do you have any thoughts to offer?

You see this lack of discussion from you opens you up criticism. The majority of your posts (I'm not saying ALL, you have had your moments) comprise a brief retort to a single point, decorated with a couple of colourful insults thrown in for good measure.

PPersonally I think it's a shame; you are not a stupid person and you've got an interesting way with words. Why not put them to better use than the occasional 'voices off',to use a theatrical term?

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:39:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Good one, Baz
Message:
Yeah, IMO I think you're right to concede something here. In retrospect, the joke's in bad taste. Big point for Cat. Too bad you gave that to him because Cat's got nothing to cling to now.

Ha ha ha!

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 18:11:49 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But Jim...
Message:
I'm not sure you're right about the poor taste. If Bazza's joke had been about, say, chemotherapy then it certainly would have been in poor taste.

Ok, maybe it wasn't that funny - more of a sarcastic prod at the non-communicative Cat-object than a joke. But would it have been offensive if Pia hadn't mentioned her cancer on IAS? Obviously not. So why does it become offensive now? It was CW, remember, whose reply about wheelchairs in the bush brought the cancer issue into it. Questionable taste there, I'd have thought, rasing the subject of Pia's illness to try scoring a cheap point off Bazza.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 18:42:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Well, it's all awkward around this issue
Message:
Not sure who or how it started but did think that, no matter what, it's a little off to start joking about someone as a possible sexual object when, if fact, they're probably far from up to pleasure on that level. No big deal, though. Like I say, it's such a touchy subject in the best of times. Then you've got Pia wearing her tragic circumstances like a badge of honour while, at the same time, conducting herself in a rather dishonourable fashion. Add to that Cat's missplaced chivalry. So Baz takes a swing and hits a fould ball. Big deal. I'm sure he sees it that way.
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 21:37:34 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'wearing tragic circumstances as a badge of honour
Message:
Yeah, that's about how I see it. It would probably have been better for everyone, Pia included, if she hadn't.

Why? Without wishing to sound insensitive, Pia's cancer is wholly irrelevant to the stated purpose of her website. But I can understand her wanting to include it in her personal testimony - saying something like 'Hey look, I am suffering but haven't lost faith'. But this is far less her badge of honour as it is Rawatso's. I hope he appreciates it - and tragic if he doesn't.

What I find pretty ugly is the way an assumed empathy for Pia's illness becomes a flag of convenience for premies to avoid discussion and shout 'foul' whenever a critical comment is made. Cat did precisely this in his original 'leave her alone' blather post, before Baz joined in. Pia is off-limits (outside your jurisdiction, remember) so don't dare criticise her website, even here...

Notice how characteristically sour CW became (the inarticulate speech of the heart?) when I called him on it.


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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 02:47:00 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Bazza, Jim ,Nigel-get down here for the last word
Message:
Here's a simple answer for you Nigel. To me you represent one of the saddest , distasteful human beings I have ever had the misfortune to come across. (And I have met plenty)You simply take the prize. I kinda picture you sitting down to a light meal of Pomeranian puppy livers in a stinky Liverpool Council terrace
trying to work out why people choose to avoid you.

My loathing extended to Bazza's tasteless sexual innuendo purely on the basis that my description of Pia at Amaroo was an accurate report of her physical condition at the time and something I personally witnessed .It is certainly not the first time I have seen some-one in such an advanced stage of suffering and in reality it does not accord them a greater intellectual freedom. It is a time however where I believe it is fair to deliver a human being a fair degree of dignity. She is in fact a person, unique and interesting. I give her points for even trying given her circumstances

Now frankly if you find that a little too much Nigel, Mr Spleen , well that's a bit of a problem. I think if perhaps you considered the possibility that, 'bastard ' that I am , I'm simply saying dont kick some-one when they are down
( I know , I know - it's your natural instinct!).
In all probability I believe she would give it (Bazza's joke) scant regard.
You people have set high standards here with regard to sexual conduct and probably I should have let you go on with this little diversion. It would have seriously undermined your postion.

Bazza, I dont feel hate for anyone. But some contributors here are onerous to the extreme.Your second point 'debate'? - I actually hate the obvious(isn't THAT obvious?).So called Debate is obvious and is a byproduct of a British Ruling class education.Why do you think Lawyers love it? It is simply another way of achieving dominance over the lesser beings.
Debate between x's and currents does not happen here and never will. The X's dont know how(it just becomes a sustained attack on an individual), there is no independent adjudicator and the currents feel absolutely no need to engage.
(Often it's what is not said that is more interesting to lurkers).

(NB: Please note; absolutely no reference on my part to the site content debate; hers or comments on this one about hers.I do not wish to discuss it)
(Now you just keep going there Nige - and try a dash of Worstershire on those little puppies livers!)

PS: I was swimming at Currumbin beach the other day and 3 Tiger sharks circled us then escorted us to the shorebreak, surfing in on the same glassy wave as us.
'Why didn't you eat us' asked my lawyer friend whom I was swimming with.
'Professional courtesy!' replied the sharks in unison.....

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 09:33:49 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: CW
Subject: Bazza, Jim ,Nigel-get down here for the last word
Message:
(NB: Please note; absolutely no reference on my part to the site content debate; hers or comments on this one about hers.I do not wish to discuss it)

So to avoid discussion you resort to cheap insults - you must be winning over hearts and minds by the dozen.

Here is my post which apparently sparked off your bile:

Pia sets up a website specifically to challenge the ex-premie web presence - does it incompetently - yet you say ex-premies should not respond because it is not in their 'jurisdiction'.
We know that even their most polite communications are not welcome on it-ain't-so, but you are suggesting nor should exes talk about it here...

IS that what you are saying, Cat? That is certainly how it reads.

You could always try answering the question. It would be a more effective use of your time than knee-jerk flaming.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 13:13:21 (GMT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: You aren't in this for the hunting are you?
Message:
you really are unbelievable
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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 13:50:22 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: This is hardly the Oxford Union, Cat.
Message:
Why not, for once, try backing up your gripes against EPO with solid evidence? Explain things a bit. And why can't Pia do this?

Let the facts stand on their own merits and there would be no need for the to-and-fro debate you hate.

And how do posts like the following serve anyone's interests, be it yours, Pia's or Maharaji's?

>>>
'Fundamentally ignorant and bereft of any finer feelings why should anyone expect better from a dolt like you. '

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:50:28 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: You dont know the Bear joke?
Message:
It gives a clear comprehensible summary of your character. Capiche?
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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 23:36:01 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: CW
Subject: CW - You know fuck all about my Nige
Message:
You would not know 'finer feelings' (see above) if they whacked you in the balls... You know nothin' worth saying so fuck off you complete moron ( go and meditate or something equally meaningless).

And wots this complete shite about 'character'?
The one thing PREMIES can't have - YOU SEXLESS ROBOT.

IT'S COMPLETELY OBVIOUS TO ME THAT YOU NEED A GOOD SHAG.
ALSO, PISS OFF FROM HERE YOU IMPOTENT BRAINLESS TWERP....

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 09:24:28 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Hear! Hear!
Message:
I thought PatC was spot-on when he said the CW persona doesn't make sense. Only an ex (very bitter and twisted, perhaps, at having once been forcibly deprogrammed) could 'do' CW, just as only an ex could do Simon Satsang or Pauline Premie.

xJT

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:02:58 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Hey Moldy !Yeah you!
Message:
Well then , I've got you fucked then ,haven't I? Very funny really !! Hey Moldy ;you know how some people look like their dogs? Are you a Pomeranian? I'd be careful!!
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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 03:25:24 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Last word? Promise?:)
Message:
Awright I was just kidding. But now you got me confused (not that its hard to do).
Oh let me back up a bit. Thanks for taking the time to write more than 3 sentences, I feel special now. Good bit of deflection on your part, taking the attention off yourself, first onto Pia then me then Nigel et al. See what a talent you have for debate? What a waste!
Anyway that brings me back up to speed. So here I have it in front of me, in black and yellow, that catwesel *hates* debate. Fair go, its not everyone's cup of tea.

But then why bother to show up at all? Surely you can find something better to do on a nice Autumn Sunday afternoon than sit and write about puppy livers, with or without Worcestershire sauce? Take away honest discussion, debate... call it what you will, and you are left on the sidelines lobbing bog rolls at the players.

Well I'm sure my fellow cretins will have something equally cretinous to say (in your eyes) so I guess I'll go stick my head down the toilet:)

[and Nigel, DO send me your recipe for pate au chien]

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 04:43:55 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Last word? Promise?:)
Message:
Well a few choice bits (Mmmm! Puppies! NiiiiiiGEEEEL !!!! Come and get it - dinner is served!)
(1) I didn't say I COULDN'T debate. It's the boring formality of it that trashes my day. But the structure of it doesnt escape me.
(bet you noticed!)
Ahhh .Honest discussion? Where? I think the site at least deserves a Devil's advocate (no not you Jimbo). This time it's one on the 'other' side. Seems to me the place flounders and can't function without something or someone to bounce off.
Tis a particularily nice (pleasant?) Sunday afternoon Baz.So I think I'll go out and enloy it....
Oh and Baz....when you do stick your head down there...Dont forget to breath?
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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 03:15:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Are you mad?
Message:
Here's a simple answer for you Nigel. To me you represent one of the saddest , distasteful human beings I have ever had the misfortune to come across. (And I have met plenty)You simply take the prize. I kinda picture you sitting down to a light meal of Pomeranian puppy livers in a stinky Liverpool Council terrace
trying to work out why people choose to avoid you.

Who exactly is it that tries to avoid Nigel? Got names, Cat? I mean, beside yourself. Who? I'd reckon to say that Nigel's kind of a popular guy. I called him once or twice. First, he wasn't home and second, the people that answered never said anything like 'Who?? Oh, Him??' with that thick distaste truly unliked people get when others are taking messages for them. I then later hd an opportunity to actually talk with Nigel and a couple other ex's who called me one night a few months ago. Nigel left the room for a bit during that call. They didn't takethe opportunity to tell me what an asshole he was. To the contrary, they seemed to like him. At least a bit. And here on the page, I've never heard anyone but you and a few premies he's taken to task for being stupid liars give him a hard time. Indeed, everyone seems to like Nigel just fine here. So who is it you're talking about, Cat? Surely you're not referring to your imaginary friend, are you?

My loathing extended to Bazza's tasteless sexual innuendo purely on the basis that my description of Pia at Amaroo was an accurate report of her physical condition at the time and something I personally witnessed .It is certainly not the first time I have seen some-one in such an advanced stage of suffering and in reality it does not accord them a greater intellectual freedom. It is a time however where I believe it is fair to deliver a human being a fair degree of dignity. She is in fact a person, unique and interesting. I give her points for even trying given her circumstances

In all serious, given the sensitivity of your tragic situation, yes, no contest on much of this. Bear in mind, though, that she has taken it upon herself to 'wage war' here and her first 'call to arms', so to speak, relied on her cancer for effect. Distasteful? Yes. Please tell her so in a way she'll understand.

Now frankly if you find that a little too much Nigel, Mr Spleen , well that's a bit of a problem. I think if perhaps you considered the possibility that, 'bastard ' that I am , I'm simply saying dont kick some-one when they are down
( I know , I know - it's your natural instinct!).

Where's he kicking her? What are you talking about? Is she beyond criticism due to her illness? Where does that leave us, the targets of her propaganda?

In all probability I believe she would give it (Bazza's joke) scant regard.

Good.

You people have set high standards here with regard to sexual conduct and probably I should have let you go on with this little diversion. It would have seriously undermined your postion.

Yeah, just let it go.

Bazza, I dont feel hate for anyone. But some contributors here are onerous to the extreme.Your second point 'debate'? - I actually hate the obvious(isn't THAT obvious?).So called Debate is obvious and is a byproduct of a British Ruling class education.Why do you think Lawyers love it? It is simply another way of achieving dominance over the lesser beings.

That's absurd. How else can one properly argue conflicting ideas? You cult members have this fierce anti-intellectualism that hamstrings you terribly. Too bad.

Debate between x's and currents does not happen here and never will. The X's dont know how(it just becomes a sustained attack on an individual), there is no independent adjudicator and the currents feel absolutely no need to engage.
(Often it's what is not said that is more interesting to lurkers).

You're noteworthy for avoiding anything akin to a real exchange of ideas. Even this, I dare say, will never turn into a clean back and forth because you flail. You say unsubstantiable things then don't stick around to be corrected, to admit it when you're wrong. BRING YOUR OWN ADJUDICATOR, if you like, Cat. We can arrange it. Anyone who's never been a premie will do just fine.

(NB: Please note; absolutely no reference on my part to the site content debate; hers or comments on this one about hers.I do not wish to discuss it)
(Now you just keep going there Nige - and try a dash of Worstershire on those little puppies livers!)

Why can't you ever be funny at least? Just don't have it in you?

PS: I was swimming at Currumbin beach the other day and 3 Tiger sharks circled us then escorted us to the shorebreak, surfing in on the same glassy wave as us.
'Why didn't you eat us' asked my lawyer friend whom I was swimming with.
'Professional courtesy!' replied the sharks in unison.....

Heard that joke fifteen years ago. What else you got?

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 03:21:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Typo
Message:
In all serious, given the sensitivity of your tragic situation, yes, no contest on much of this

shold read 'HER tragic situation'

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:52:39 (GMT)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: samhardy2002@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: EV PR resignations
Message:
A reliable source informs me that in the last year a number of senior EV PR people have resigned, some upset with the approach to the Jagdeo issue, as Anth has suggested below. There's at least five gone in America, and apparently two in the UK. This does not mean they have walked from the cult altogether but they have serious issues with the way the cult is being presented. The paucity of imagination exhibited on the Pia website (unlike some bettors on this site, my hunch is still that it's an official site) suggests what's left of the PR team is scrambling with some difficulty to fulfil Mr Rawat's requirements.

After an absence of some months, Mr Jean-Marie Bounthous is back at the helm of international PR, with a new UK assistant. It has been suggested that Mr Bounthous's personal charisma is responsible for a few people defecting.

Further to Joe's excellent post below, 'Defense based on vague platitudes', the denial of cult status is only a denial for public consumption. A very senior member of the organisation has admitted to me that EV is a cult. I will not name that person because I would not wish Mr Rawat's wrath on anyone. There is a degree of cynicism which doesn't stick well with the 'ordinary' devotee singing arti with all sincerity. It reminds of the horse in George Orwell's Animal Farm, which worked unto death for the state while the pigs became more equal than others.

That is not to say there is not very many sincere people in EV who work very hard for what they believe to be real goals. What you can be sure of is that every organisation attracts careerists, even when the publicly stated aim has nothing to do with 'career'.

Thanks to all those who have responded to my @yahoo account with encouragement and information.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:13:41 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: EV PR resignations
Message:
Thanks, Michael. We did hear that Terry Yingling resigned from PR at Elan Vital around the time the Jagdeo accusations came to light, apparently because she didn't want to be associated with the disgusting way Elan Vital was trying to avoid responsbility.

What do you mean about Jean Marie's 'personal charisma' being responsible for defections? And is it really true that somebody high up in EV admitted it was a cult? Didn't they seem bothered by that?

By the way, I just sent the following to Pia's website. Think they will print it?:

I continue to be amazed at the brazen bias of this website. I notice that not ONE desenting view has been printed, despite your site's professed support for free speech.

The Ex-premie website has been around for a few years now. That website if FULL of information, quotes, events personally witnessed, pictures, testimonies, news articles, and lots, lots more. The evidence overwhelming that:

The Maharaji cult is a cult because:

1) it claims a simple solution to happiness and fulfillment and is only available through Maharaji;

2) it has a leader who is worshipped and considered divine and/or above error:

3)criticism of the leader is discouraged or censored;

4)the members get to feel special for having the 'gift';

5) the cult holds exclusive, member-only events where rituals are practiced that aren't disclosed to the public (darshan in the outback of Australia when you have to have a 'smartcard' to get in, for example), among other things.

How does your website, and Elan Vital,respond? Well, just to take the issue of whether the premies (PWks) are in a cult or not, your posters just confuse the issue and raise straw men to strike down by saying, or they admit other characteristics:

1. Cults are weird and this is not weird'(Randy Greiner)
2. Cults are dictatorial and controlling and nobody in Elan Vital tells me what to do (Susan Tyson);

3. I would never follow a cult, therefore I am not in a cult (Randy Grenier);

4. I'm enjoying myself, so this can't be a cult (Susan Tyson);

5. I have friends outside the cult, so it's not a cult because otherwise I wouldn't have them (Josie Winter);

6. This is not a cult because I know it's not (Dr. Edd);

7. I read a book about cults, and we don't fit some of the definitions (although even Jose Winter has to admit that her cult DOES fit one of the four defintions to a T, which is imputing charismatic/divine power to Maharaji (how did THAT get in?)) (I would also disagree with her that the Maharaji cult doesnt have a 'belief system,' because, of course, it does so that makes two out of four from Mr. Galanter.) Also, as has been reported, Mr. Galanter, in that very book, concluded that Maharaji and Elan Vital were, indeed a cult.

Aside from the fact that Josie admits one of the above characteristics, and given they are all gushing and grateful for 'the gift' which they say fulfills their lives, we are really getting there, aren't we? One remaining characteristic conveniently ignored, is discouraging and censoring dissent.

Note that not ONE of the testimonials has even the teensiest criticism of Maharaji or Elan Vital. Maharaji apparently has NEVER done anything wrong. And doesn't it speak volumes that the this website, as well as the other cult sites are all censored? I notice that you have not printed even ONE of the MANY dissenting views that have been sent into this website from ex-premies, many of whihc been published on the ex-premie website.

I also note that Amaroo and darshan, and the exclusive nature of the event was not mentioned.

Finally, saying one isn't in a cult because he or she would never do that is nuts. The nature of being in a cult, like addiction, is that you don't know you are. The thousands of us who are ex-premies were all once in the very cult that these people are now in, and I wager NONE of us thought we were in a cult at the time. That's the nature of the beast. If you thought you were in a cult, you wouldn't be in it, now would you?

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 15:24:51 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: personal charisma.....
Message:
Hey Joe:

Jean-Marie B. can be somewhat dictatorial and haughty in his manner toward people. He thinks 99.9% of women are bimbos, which, I think, results in him not listening to anyone but himself and a few inner circle friends. He attended the San Ysidro conference, was 'fired' for participating in that fiasco, was exiled for quite a few years, and then after asking M to take him back, he returned to Malibu. He's in possession of an emotional lacuna which does not serve him, or others, well.

I'm sure Michael McD. can elaborate better than I.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:30:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: EV PR
Message:
You said: ''Mr Jean-Marie Bounthous is back at the helm of international PR, with a new UK assistant.''

I wonder if that assistant is Glen Whittaker who was just re-assigned from UK national co-ordiantor to international PR.

Like you, I think Pia's site is officially approved by the pigs in the cult. Pia herself is a horse as are most of the people in EV.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:20:29 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Using a woman with cancer is a cheap trick
Message:
That smacks of EV PR to me, to use a woman with terminal cancer to front their rebuttal website. Just trying to gain sympathy any way they can. How pathetic. Pia, honey, I hope you can come to your senses before it's too late!
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:25:14 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Using a woman with cancer is a cheap trick - Yep
Message:
But it works. Look at how it turned Catweasel into jello. Yuk! I wish Pia only the best and hope that she realizes that she is one of the horses that the pigs of Animal Fram (oops EV) are using.

Lenin: ''The end justifies the means.''

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 22:02:53 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I don't agree that Pia as cancer victim is EV PR..
Message:
... intentionally anyway. I think Pia created her website because she was driven by her desire to prevent her master from being subjected to ridicule (telling of facts) in the press. I don't believe it was concocted as a sympathy ploy by EV. She simply offered her services to M via EV. That said, I do think very quickly her site has become an official PR organ. Her mentioning her bout with cancer, I think, is because she wants to do something meaningful with her life at this point and wanted to tell her readers just how precious time on earth is. In her mind, she is completing her dedication to M in the only way she knows how. A noble gesture indeed and I feel sympathy for her.

However, Pia's site, IMHO, is the single greatest event to have draw attention to EPO. Unwittingly, she / they have made thousands of premies aware of allegations surrounding M and EV. The buzz is surely circulating through the PWK community at this moment. Something EPO could not have done in years, they have accomplished in a week or two.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:37:05 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Is she going to become an EV martyr?
Message:
I am a little worried about. I hope Pia lives a long time, but if she truly has a limited time on this earth I suspect that premies will see us as callous for challenging as soon as she dies.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 02:43:08 (GMT)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: EV PR
Message:
No, it's not Glen, though he does have a finger in the PR pie. I understand he edits the excerpts for the EV newsletter online. Once, Mr Rawat publicly chastised my editing of his satsangs (the first to appear en masse in And It Is Divine in a long time) but it appears to be par for the course these days.

I had dinner with Glen when he was out here for Amaroo (Hello, Glen, if you're lurking). He seemed fit and well and very much dedicated to Mr Rawat. He thought quite a few people were backing off from the cult at the moment, and attributed some of that to the ex site. Now that I'm persona non grata (has anyone been declared manmat since Bihari Singh?) my consumption of red wine with visiting dignitaries may decrease.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:45:02 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Maharaji's Criticism of Editing
Message:
Hi Michael.

I know how you felt when he criticized your editing of his satsangs. I used to work with Divine Times and AIID also (and later when it became Elan Vital magazine) and very lovingly perused his satsangs for quotes for the publications. Then one time I heard that he said the person picking the quotes out was 'unconscious'. This really hurt my feelings, since I did it with such love and devotion and really enjoyed doing it. I had dedicated my life to this guy and all I get was a third-hand criticism.

Well, guess I really was unconscious by his terms, and am definitely not conscious of him any more as my Lord and Savior and Perfect Master. Too bad. Of course it never dawned on him that the person speaking the words was unconscious, oh no. Just the one highlighting them. Right.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 04:36:34 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: EV PR
Message:
There was a report posted here a few months ago that Glen was a monitor of this forum. Also that he was the author of the EV revisionist FAQs. It's hard to believe that the old hippy I knew 28 years ago has become such a corporate toady.

Anyway enough gossip. I really am itching to get to know you. I'm one of those people who enjoy this forum more for the personalities than for the politics.

We just had a get-together of 23 of the regular posters on FV and it was the best high I have had in years. Seems like all the best folks have left the cult. These are the guys who gave it all the juice 30 years ago and then Rev Rawat wonders why there's none of the old seventies enthusiasm. It's all here now.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:26:40 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Bhole Ji's band was declared manmats
Message:
for sticking with BJ, BBJ and Mata Ji. Like a fool I left them and went back to M. Just shoulda bagged the whole thing, eh??

--f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:47:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My answer to Maria (from Pia)
Message:
This is the latest on Pia's site. As they're apparently trying to talk with us but won't let us say anything, this is the only place to respond. Who knows? Maybe Maria will reply there to this and I can respond again. What a way to talk with someone, huh? I get bold this time.

What is worth fearing

Very telling that you left the question mark off, Maria. A 'Fraudian slip'?

By Mariah

I am both glad for this site and sad that there is need for it. I first heard of Maharaji in 1971. He was probably 13 or 14. A member of my family had received Knowledge and I was concerned for him. I was worried that he had fallen prey to yet another cult after seeing the one we had grown up in for what it was. I know first hand about 'group think', and also about charismatic leaders who convince you to follow their vision without regard for your own.

I know what it feels like to feel important because you are among the select few that understand 'the truth' and to have meaning in your life because there is something to dedicate it to. I also know what it feels like to come to the point where these claims and beliefs fall apart and you look at years of life that suddenly seem wasted. The emptiness is close to terrifying. I know too what it is like to find in that emptiness the slightest hint of a sense of self, apart from belief and the corroboration of others and to understand that it is enough to proceed with in life. I came to value that before I met Maharaji. So I have never since been eager to become a 'follower' of anyone. It took me seven years to even feel free to listen to what Maharaji was saying. And frankly, when I did, it was not what he was saying that touched me.

Big question that leaps to mind, is why in the world you spent a good seven years trying to develop an immunity to Maharaji's poison. I mean, clearly Maharaji qualified as yet another cult leader. Your own experience informed you to that effect without question. So what'd you do? You kept working on yourself until you could find a way to finally slip in. No surprise that 'it was not what he was saying' by then, is it?

From the beginning, my experience with Maharaji has been one of discovering new possibilities within myself. I have not always agreed with what he has said, nor with what people representing him have said. I consider that immaterial.

I don't! Tell us ONE THING, Maria, that you disagreed with. Come on, you said it. Shouldn't be that hard. What? And as for his agents, spell that out too and maybe we can source their bad advice. It must have come from somewhere, I'd imagine. 'Immaterial'? Ha!

What has been consistent is that this man has encouraged me to take the time to explore a world of experience within me that is the most private and meaningful part of my life. It has given me joy, sustenance in times of pain and stress, and a steadiness that has served me well in face of numerous life challenges.

Impossible to rebut such broad and vague statements. All I know is that I was a premie for years and I look back on that time as one of hiding from the world. Hiding from life. Unreal. Imaginary friend time. I also know that Maharaji and Knowledge GENERATED all sorts of anguish I'd have never had otherwise. I felt it was unhealthy to have a fully operating mind. Can you imagine that? Lots of pain and stress on that front. Know what I mean? as for steadiness, well that's what being 'captive' is all about, isn't it? You know where your next meal's gonna be, that's for sure. Kind of like jail, I'd imagine. Steady as hell.

I am often the first to give up on myself. This man never has. He has been relentless in inspiring and re-inspiring me to remember the value that I am, the specialness of being alive.

I guess you could say the same thing about any televangelist, couldn't you? They just KEEP ON GOING! But, really, Maria, did Maharaji ever put any real time or energy into you personally? How? No, I'm not asking about public programs of any kind. I'm asking about you individually. Hell, girl, we all know the answer to that one. So do you. As for 'relentless' ... hell, I'd say what we do here might be called relentless. Taking all the flack we do from silly premies, wasting so much of our own time and energy on you all. And one thing we all know, Maria, is that WE are certainly not getting paid for it. Maharaji, on the other hand, somehow became immensely wealthy over the years. How, Maria? How?

What is most challenging to me about what he says is that each person must find their answers for themselves and that they can.

Where, in the world, did you get this idea? Is that what the endless videos, videos, videos, are all about? Each of you finding answers for yourselves? Do you know what 'absurd' means?

This is not the direction of a cult leader. I know that from first hand experience. I do not set myself up as one to judge or investigate Maharaji's personal life any more than I do that of someone who is selling me a car.

Are you stupid or something? That's the worst analogy I've heard all day and I appeared in youth court this morning! You buy a car from someone and you do a little due diligence. You get the car inspected, you check out the guy's BBB profile, you ask around. You ask HIM questions, as many as you like. If he misrepresents anything to you, you can sue him. And, after all, it's just a car. Maharaji has an active plan to benumb people so that their questions aren't answered as much as their 'question-maker' (i.e. mind) is defused or beaten back into the bushes of one's psyche. You know that. You know that Maharaji is not accountable before or after one joins the cult. Besides, it's NOT just a car, is it?

He offered to show me a way of turning within myself for my own enjoyment. He did. My efforts in that direction have been most worthwhile. He works hard to dismantle any belief system that I try to build up around that exploration. I don't always like it.

Why do you say he works hard at anything? Because he's 'on the air' so much? Again, how's that any different than Robert Schuller, etc.? And as for dismantling 'any belief system' you might have, tell me, what is your breath? What is your mind? What is your heart? And who, pray tell, is Maharaji? Regular man? Yes? No? What?

There seems to be a mechanism inside me that is constantly building systems of understanding that lull me into feeling that I have life under control. Sometimes I don't even know that I have done this. Then something he says exposes my scaffolding and puts me back to square one where I can only rely on my own experience and not ideas.

Is this all part of the stress and pain alleviation, the stability, you were talking about? Sounds pretty damn complicated to me, Maria. Not much fun either. But then you already know that.

He has kept his side of the bargain more consistently and dedicatedly than I could have ever asked him to. He has stuck around to help me stick with the freshness of each moment.

What are you actually saying here? 'Thank you, Maharaji, for not conceding what a scam you are and retiring rich as hell years ago'? Thank you, Lord, for perpetuating the myth indefinitely'? He has nothing to do with you, Maria. He's you rimaginary friend that you give money to. If that's 'sticking around', hell, I'm here too, don't forget!

I have not always remembered my own value or that of my life.

And Maharaji doesn't even know you exist. You're just one of a large group of faceless donation-bushes. You mean nothing to him. Nothing. He doesn't know who you are and, if you died tomorrow and someone bothered to tell him, he'd want to know one thing only: why he was being bothered with this irrelevant piece of news.

I still need reminding kind, gentle, humorous or hard hitting as the case may be. I have to say that I do not know 'who' Maharaji is, and I don't care to define that. I don't know how the universe is constructed, if there is a 'creator', or a higher power. I have beliefs about that, but not knowledge.

Let's be honest, Maria. You don't know what the fuck to think. You can't look at Maharaji's own past because, as the quotes here on EPO prove in abundance, he used to say he was God. In fact, you're talking 'creator', he used to say that was him. No bones about it. And yes, Maria, you have beliefs. Youv'e got beliefs about all of it. Don't confuse beliefs with understanding. It's true that you don't have any real udnerstanding about who Maharaji is or what so-called Knowledge is, but that's just because that's how he runs his cult today.

What I value about Maharaji is beyond any judgement anyone can come up with about how he lives his life or what choices he has made. He does not tell me how to live my life, and I don't feel in a position to judge how he lives his. That is the stuff of cult thinking.

WHAT?????? Is that what you said about the LAST cult leader you say your family was trapped by? That to judge him is to somehow exemplify cult thinking? You're confused, Maria. Very.

That is what makes me angry when I hear it. It is truly time to be afraid when fear leads governments to try to control the freedom of their people and when stone throwing replaces personal responsibility.

Personal Responsibility? That bugs me to no end. Listen, girl, I put my name to what I say here and have done so for years. Who the hell are you? 'Maria'? Fuck off with that shit! Here, too, you're just echoing your fellow cult members. Not an original thought in your heard, I'm afraid.

Next?


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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:07:49 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And you're not even paid for all this work Jim..
Message:
:)) I hope they fucking get to read all these rebuttals ...it'd be just sickening to think they are too SCARED to at least consider this stuff.

I read her post with total disbelief and exasperation .....and also Pia and her cronies are really beginning to piss me off. We've all posted some GREAT stuff to her and all she publishes is
drivel,lies and bullshit.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:31:24 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, Jim, right on
Message:
I wanted to do that, but it's just too exhausting at the moment. Thanks, for the ten-thousandth time, breaking through the crap. Sometimes I think the whole point of saying anything is that if you repeat it often enough, something finally gets through. Probably not for Maria, though.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:57:33 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not an original thought in your heard - typo?
Message:
I'm sure you meant herd.

At least I don't have to use emotikons for you.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:12:21 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Only 12 post on Pia site???
Message:
On Pia home page it states 'in the first 24 hours alone we had over 1,100 unique visitors... ' Over 1,100 wow that's a lot of unique visitors but tell me this Pia. Why have you only posted 12 out of a posible 1,100? Could it be because the other 1,088 unique visitors are all from that nasty hate group.

Now I not very good at mathematics but even I can work out that 12 out of 1,100 is a very small number.

Kev.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:58:47 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: Only 12 post on Pia site???
Message:
Am sure that more will come. You have to remember that they are using this site for 'rapid responce' to changing issues. Something like a 'new' reader. So I take it that there is a lot of editing going on, plus the have to find responces that are not from exes seeing that she was flooded with them. Another thing is that from a design point of view, the site was not thought of properly and has teething problems, they keep changing it, they haven't worked out what is the best presentation, meaning that they don't have set templetes yet. This is very time consuming when you're running a site. Bet you J-M can add to this.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:56:21 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: Another spin doc at it-aint-so.
Message:
.

. What is worth fearing? by Mariah

'So I have never since been eager to become a 'follower' of anyone.'

Here she implies that she doesn't follow Prem Rawat, but then she goes on and on about Maharaji this and Maharaji that.

'This is not the direction of a cult leader.'

She doth protest too much.

'I do not set myself up as one to judge or investigate Maharaji's personal life any more than I do that of someone who is selling me a car.'

I wouldn't want to buy a used car from someone who has been shown to be a liar in his PUBLIC life or to be a car thief in his PUBLIC life. I wouldn't trust him. I could be wasting my money and more importantly endangering my life by buying a defective product.

The criticisms of Rawat are not centered around his personal life, in fact, his personal life has little to do with the discussion here.

Rawat's interactions with PWKs (pwikies, premies, devotees, students) are his PUBLIC life.

The way he got money to buy a 7,000,000 dollar yacht is his PUBLIC life.

His psychological and physical abuse of premies is his PUBLIC life.

The lies that he told us are his PUBLIC life.

His harboring of Jadgeo is his PUBLIC life.

His hypocritical laying of guilt trips on us about sex while living la vida loca is his PUBLIC life.

Need I go on?

What does his private life have to do with this? We're not talking about what he does while he takes a shit. Who would want to discuss that?

And we're not just talking about someone who is SELLING a product, are we? Oh, he is SELLING allright - a bunch of bs - but there is far more at stake than say buying a stereo from someone.

If the way he says what he says is supposed to matter, than his character does count.

Notice that she doesn't defend Rawat, she just says his so-called 'personal' life is off-limits to discussion. This is a warning sign, it shows that criticism of the cult leader Rawat is not tolerated in the cult, a hallmark of a cult. It's pretty icky what his un-defenders are considering his 'personal' life, as if his harmful effect on us is not his public life, as if we are non-persons.

If he is interacting with another person, that is his PUBLIC life.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:37:11 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: gotta love stats
Message:
I was asked to write a web/jsp util a month ago to give one of my coworkers stats on usage for a webtool we use. (nothing mission critical thank the heathens)

She was thrilled with my, uh what is before beta? :) version but I was uneasy and went through a horrible process of error checking only to discover that I had done an incorrect if / else comparison and things were waaaaaaayyyy off.

I shudder to think how often this happens. My point of this babble being one can fudge stats or just go with the usual packages out there and never really know how many hits are real.
So I suppose in a way this could be seen as defending pia but if so I am only defending her (convenient?) ignorance.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 06:12:51 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: techie stuff
Message:
a beta release is one that goes for out for user testing to get bug reports back from using the software for real.

prior to that is alpha or in-house testing... sounds like your co-worker got the alpha version!

xJT

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:40:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: alpha ot
Message:
oh that's right, I remember laughing when we ordered some computers several years back and they were called Alphas :)
seemed like an odd name for a computer given it's meaning of being in the early testing stages.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:31:57 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: It's the term 'unique visitors' - says it all !!!
Message:
X
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:41:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Yeah, like walk-ins checking their make-up (nt)
Message:
hhhhhh
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:44:52 (GMT)
From: Moldy warp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Walkins??? Are they stand-ins??? Well
Message:
if they are that would figure...
Whole bloody charade reminds me of
THE STEPFORD WIVES
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:56:30 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Some Thoughts On Maharaji
Message:
One thought that's been percolating in my mind ever since I started posting here last fall is becoming formed.

It concerns Maharaji's becoming master at a very young age, eight years old.

In the case of every famous or great person that I know of, from movie stars to statesmen to scientists to athletes to everyone else, a person has to pay their dues.

Being asked to speak at several events a year by one's father in order to attract crowds and dropping out of school at 13 isn't exactly a very inspiring example of paying one's dues.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:25:53 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Howdaya mean Steve??? pay their dues?
Message:
Do you mean 'go out and get a proper job'?
or 'be responsible for their actions' ?
or are you speaking karmically ??? (heaven forfend)

Sorry if I don't get you - I'm trying
MWxx

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:44:19 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Howdaya mean Steve??? pay their dues?
Message:
Here's a link to a dictionary.

pay your dues - to gain a privilege or position through hard work or pain

I thought the post was obvious, but that's the definition that was in my head. Obvious yet?

Steve

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:10:51 (GMT)
From: Moldy warp
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Thanks Steve - getya now xx Moldy nt
Message:
x
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:40:21 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Howdaya mean Steve??? pay their dues?
Message:
Thanks Moldy, as I was reading I thought maybe Steve meens paying dues as demonstrating one is worthy of the tilte??? And I agree being abused by his father by speaking to people does not constitute growth and understanding about being a master.

Mercedes (trying to go out and enjoy the sun in Seattle)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:20:27 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I just registered IT-IS-SO.ORG
Message:
Should it become appropriate to create another website to carry on a 'conversation' with it-aint-so.org, I registered it-is-so.org. Registering this domain name may be just for own amusement but the idea crossed my mind - and we know how wacky the mind is.

Any ideas on how this domain might be used?

Richard who had a life once until Joy held a gun to my head so I would read EPO and Dettmers, Donner and Kahn brainwashed me

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:05:58 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Great ideas everyone
Message:
I had imagined it-is-so.org to be a place where anyone from media to fencesitters could quickly get irrefutable information and, if beginning the exit process, get support. All of your ideas are interesting as well. Besides, EPO does these things already.

EPO is working fine and obviously has had a major impact on helping folks have a peek behind the Wizard's curtain. The arrival of IASO has been the one biggest acknowledgement of the impact EPO has had. Over at IASO, the spin doctors are spinning and perhaps protesting a bit too loudly without really saying anything. I have no doubt that, at least by now, Pia et al are directly orchestrated by EV spin central. But, it-aint-so.org is doing such a good job of showing how little rebuttal there is to the truth told here on EPO, Sir Dave's site and J-M's French site. I'll admit the truth has been stretched, embellished and even fabricated here from time to time - but the huge core of good information stands up to scrutiny. When you consider this Forum is a totally unorganized and certainly unsynchronized gathering of individuals, all trying to find out the truth about our selves individually and together, what has been accomplished is formidable.

I realize registering it-is-so.org is a bit like school kids yelling 'aint so' - 'is so' back and forth but that is the level at which I perceive IASO. False bravado in the face of true critique. So maybe it-is-so.org will come to life at some point. For now it is awaiting a real need.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 22:50:52 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Great idea
Message:
(just posted somewhere up about this) Even if it is just a page, with a footkissing scene with krishna crown, maybe a pic of the boat and the jet, will say more than a thousand words. As long as the search engine groups them together.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:17:29 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: what's IASO
Message:
Meanwhile
We Told them So

any suggestions.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:25:37 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Sorry it's an acronym, it-aint-so.org = IASO /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:18:51 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Another hit on the WWW is good enough reason
Message:
Richard:

If you set up the site, once you've found it's core niche, you could have a lot of different links referring people to Sir Dave's, Jean-Michel's and different content on here.

It would be one more 'hit' on a WWW search engine BESIDES EPO and the other existing 'ex' sites that is getting the word out.

If you do it, I'm not current on the webmaster stuff, but my own site always got good hits by making sure it had meta tags (code that could not be seen with the browser that describes the site and allows search engines and spiders to catalogue it).

--Francesca

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 14:20:12 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I volunteer my American Slang post if you want it
Message:
somewhere on the site.
One or two revisions would make it better.

La-ex

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 13:30:14 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Richard, you could always print our letters
Message:
Ya know, the ones that Pia won't put on her site. For a start, anyway.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:09:17 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: i vote with G-use it to refute watever they put up
Message:
since they wont engage us fairly on their own site.

and imagine the nerve wracking of knowing that whatever you put on your site today, that other site is going to wait to see what you've said just so they can refute it tomorrow.

sorta like your shadow you can't outrun or get rid of.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:47:21 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: Richard
Subject: Why go through all this when
Message:
you have this site on?

I don't think that Pia has the balls to speak face to face to any ex-premie or have a dialogue.

But if you need help in designing the site and deploy it as a 'rapid responce' to her 'aligations', I maybe able to help. E-mail me if you want.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:42:14 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Say It Isn't So - Irving Berlin. haha (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:05:51 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Nice idea, Richard. How to use it..?
Message:
Well what about an 'Anything Goes about Maharaji' forum - a no-holds-barred forum where the only rule is posts should be on-topic.

As I understand it, the present Anything Goes forum was set up to provide a home for strong language, personal attacks etc. which would otherwise clutter FV and distract attention from its more useful purposes. In that respect, it has served some purpose for those exes and trolls who like posting there, but if you visit it today you'd have no idea it had anything to do with Maharaji.

Or how about publishing 'Mararaji's Collected Works', transcrips of every satsang or interview ever given, assembled in chronological order from the earliest to most recent. Appeal for old tapes and mags.

Premies would like that too, no...? I mean they are not ashamed of their Master, or so they say.

I'd love to see a website like that. So would M, I'm sure. They could hardly accuse you of misrepresenting or libelling him. Just his precious words. How preciously precious that would preciously be. Imagine it....

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:49:29 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What a good idea!
Message:
The illustrated satsang of a perfect monster. And the beauty is, one could build it and be done (relatively speaking).

How would the content be organised? Chronologically?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:55:34 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: either chronologically or by logicality (?)nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 13:04:47 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Chronologically - he's a-logical ;-) (nt)
Message:
and out of his mind - even his real one! ;-)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:00:05 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: good idea, wouldn't even have to say anything
Message:
contraversial.

Just the facts, mam.

[quote from Dragnet]

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:00:55 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Good
Message:
It could be used to respond point-by-point to it-aint-so.org and show the baloney tactics used there. I think the picture of Rawat dressed up as Krishna doing the Hindu wobble dance would be a must. it-aint-so.org asks 'What did Maharaji say?' Well, we got quotes, lots of quotes.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:53:49 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Uh, excuse me . . .
Message:
. . . you're the one who told ME about EPO when you were still a marginal premie and lurking every day from the very beginning, then I told Joe who got on before me, but eventually I joined in the fun. Let's get our facts straight here.

Hot Flatlanders gig last night, or what?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:36:46 (GMT)
From: bazza
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: How 'bout one for fence-sitters
Message:
like Sandy maybe-

it-MIGHT-BE-so.org

or lawyers (Jim) -

it-allegedly-is-so.org

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:39:15 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: bazza
Subject: Or conspiracy buffs
Message:
Some-say-its-so.org
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:13:59 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Or fuckwits: it is so , so there ! (nt)
Message:
k
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:41:52 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: he-aint-divine-but-really-is.org (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:44:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I always thought Agent Mulder's poster
Message:
In his office on the X-files said it all about premies:
I WANT To Believe
(.org added for syntactical correctness.)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:06:33 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Quotes from Marc Galanters book
Message:
'The study was held on the outskirts of Orlando Florida, at a national festival held by the Divine Light Mission, one of the conclaves regularly organized to allow members of the group the opportunity for personal contact, or darshan, with the guru. A field had been rented for the weeklong event. Events there showed how the group's cohesiveness could be mobilized as a potent social force and how non-members could be excluded.
The atmosphere of belonging was pervasive, as some 5,000 young adult gathered to make preparations. They interacted in a congenial and open manner, even when they had struck up acquaintance only moments before. To say the least, this was not an impersonal work site. It represented a network of people who hastened to assist eachother and sought ways to further their common cause of making the festival a shared experience, something valuable to all.

As a group, the members looked as if they had been drawn from the graduate campus of a large university- bright, not too carefully groomed, casually dressed. They were lively, good- tempered, and committed to their mutual effort. Some set up tents; others sold religious tracts and pins with pictures of the guru, his American wife, and their baby. Some handled food; others moved about with an air of eager expectancy. There was no idleness, brashness, marijuana, loud music, of flirtation- all hallmarks of a more typical assembly of people in their twenties.

The administrative structure for the event appeared informal, but no sense of disorganization pervaded. The speakers addressed the group from a large floating stage on a lake. The program moved along smoothly from one event to the next, whether singing for the guru (“He’s Got the Whole World in His Hands”) or listening to various leaders delivering satsang.

The group’s congeniality apparently extended to anyone designated as acceptable, as long as the proper signal was made. Thus, because Beth, who held a position of respect within the group, had labeled my colleague and me as “okay,” we were acceptable. After being introduced to the appropriate parties, we were greeted warmly and made to feel a part of the group. Help was offered as I began to query various organizers on strategy. Was it possible to pick out people at random from the registration lines to administer the questionnaire? There surely was a way, once I deliberated with them the options available. Was space necessary for subjects to sit quietly and fill out research forms? Something would be worked out for every need. Soon we were all sitting around and talking about experiences of mutual interest, even a few remote common acquaintances.

We also saw the other side of the coin- how the group defined and protected its boundary between members and the outside world. The demarcation could be drawn tightly, much as a droplet of quicksilver coalesces and separates from its surroundings, or as family members draw together and limit access of outsiders to their personal affairs. Our own status suddenly changed from inside to outside when a more suspicious member of the administrative group asked me if the project had been “approved” by senior figures from the Mission. In the absence of a definitive response, our legitimacy was now open to question. Although it was not entirely clear what this approval entailed, a request was quickly relayed to the upper reaches of the Divine Light hierarchy and was then-to my surprise and dismay- peremptorily turned down.

The members I had met quickly withdrew their offers of friendship, providing an object lesson on exclusion from a cohesive group. I soon felt myself to be a non-person, treated civilly but coolly, having become an outsider as rapidly as I has been made an insider. The very people who had hovered around us to help with our plans now found making conversation uncomfortable. People seemed to be looking through my colleague and me rather than at us.

Toward the end of the day approval come as suddenly as it had been withdrawn, with the information that a decision had been made at the “highest” level, presumably in consultation with the guru himself. Acceptance and offers of help came with rekindled warmth. As if automatically triggered, a renewed air of intimacy suffused our exchanges.

The experience illustrates the considerable mobilization of support that such a cohesive group can generate, informally or with formal sanction, as well as the strength of its controls over actions. The sects ideology lends the control structure a legitimacy that penetrates the layers of the individual members’ own decision making, eliciting group-sanctioned behavior. At no point in the Orlando sequence was there any significant diversity in attitudes expressed towards us. Each group member adhered to the consensus and thereby assured unanimity. As in Ann’s family, this intense mutuality the need both for security in the face of an outside world that is perceived as threatening and to prevent internal conflict. Agreement in attitude and views serves to protect the integrity of the group as a social system.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:52:59 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Interesting how much more open things were then..
Message:
I am trying to imagine an outside researcher asking permission to administer a cult-related questionnaire on the site of a present-day event. Simply wouldn't happen. (Say it ain't so, Pia.) I can't imagine being allowed to do it in 1986 or even 1977 (the respective start and end dates of my own involvement.)

The thing is, I think those very early day premies believed they truly COULD be open and honest about everything, and M had yet to impose his anal control trip on the organisation. So they had no official introductory script and nothing much to hide. The Lord is on the Planet. 'Shout it from the rooftops' were M's own words.

Something happened....

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:09:29 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nige the time-Lord!
Message:
Hi Nige,

Couldn't help noticing this sentence:

' I can't imagine being allowed to do it in 1986 or even 1977 (the respective start and end dates of my own involvement.)'

Was it any different, going through the whole thing from the future backwards?

;––) Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 02:11:42 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I thought exactly the same thing Brother Nigel
Message:
The words cohesive, congenial and open somehow all ring true for those times. We could do most anything because we believed in something. Replace 'cohesive' with 'synchronization' and you have a less human and more machine-like interaction.

Jai ho bro'

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:59:07 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Mr L - Maharaji is obsesseds with him sELF nt
Message:
xxx
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:01:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Gimme that ol' time 'loud music of flirtation'
Message:
Where'd you find this, Susan? This is great. Don't bother answering me if you've already explained this elsewhere. I'll find it.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:17:21 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: ha reminds me of HST's Hell's Angels
Message:
At least Marc didn't get beat up.
Am not really joking, HST wrote a book about traveling with the 'club' for a while and the acceptance and/or rejection depending on Sonny, the leader, was eerily similar. I read it ages ago but remembered this as soon as I read your post.

Is this a ref to 'Cults: Faith, Healing, and Coercion' ? As usual I missed the original post if there was one.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:19:48 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Yes...Cults: Faith, Healing and Coercion
Message:
he also studies the Moonies and compares them to DLM a lot. Why on earht would he compare two group that are obviously so very different?????

I am sure all the moonies are very angry about being compared to a cult like DLM. Everyone knows Moonies arent a cult!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:28:48 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Excellent, did you post that to Pia on her site?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:16:46 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: yes I did and this to Galanter with cc to Pia
Message:
Dear Dr. Galanter,

http://www.it-aint-so.org/readers_say.htm link to cult defense site

I am an ex member of the DLM/EV cult and I thought your book was great. I thought you might be interested that a Maharaji cult defense site is referencing your book. Did they read the same book I did?

In case you are interested, here is a link to the ex member web site.

http://www.ex-premie.org/

http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/index.html

http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/indian.htm great photos of the guru that are conspicuously absent from his current sites.

Thanks,

Susan Haupt

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:42:44 (GMT)
From: Nigeandmoldy
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Brilliant and LOL! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:25:39 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: the Rev seems to have it more together
Message:
The Moonies are probably insulted to be compared to M's rag-tag crew.
I wasn't sure how to read you, if you were joking or not but I do see similarities since both fit the cult checklist. Wasn't that PBS special 'Signs and Wonders' about Moon?
That young woman reminded me of a lot of the premies. I suddenly feel ill.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:30:13 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: joking...sarcasm intended! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:05:31 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Conversation with Ira
Message:
Michael, down below you mentioned a 2 hour conversation with Ira Woods. A couple of us asked if you could elaborate on that conversation. What did he say? If you responded, I missed it. Could you elaborate here? Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:07:40 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ira Question is for Michael McDonaldNT
Message:
The above question is for Michael McDonald.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:21:00 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: No, it was Jim Sander
Message:
It was Jim Sander, (in his post to Michael MacDonald), who had the 2 hr conversation with Ira a few months ago. Jim Sander's original post about that conversation should be in the archives. Ira didn't have anything too juicy to say. He acknowledged that the ex-premie site is having an effect, especially on aspirants.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:32:51 (GMT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Correct.I'll talk more when I have time to post.nt
Message:
ww
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:56:23 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Defense based on vague platitudes
Message:
Funny, isn't it?

EPO and the forum has been around for a few years now. This website if FULL of information, quotes, events personally witnesses, pictures, testimonies, news articles, and lots, lots more. The evidence overwhelming that:

The Maharaji cult is a cult because it claims a simple solution to happiness and fulfillment, it has a leader who is worshipped and considered divine and/or above error, criticism of the leader is not discouraged or censored, the members get to feel special for having the 'gift', and they hold exclusive, member-only events where rituals are practiced that aren't disclosed to the public (darshan in the outback of Australia when you have to have a 'smartcard' to get in, for example), among other things.

How do Elan Vital and the jokers on Pia's website respond? Well, just to take the issue of whether the premies are in a cult or not, they just confuse the issue and raise straw men to strike down by saying, or they admit other characteristics:

1. Cults are weird and this is not weird'(Randy Greiner)
2. Cults are dictatorial and controlling and nobody in Elan Vital tells me what to do (Susan Tyson)
3. I would never follow a cult, therefore I am not in a cult (Randy Grenier)
4. I'm enjoying myself, so this can't be a cult (Susan Tyson)
5. I have friends who aren't in the cult, so it's not a cult (Josie Winter)
6. This is not a cult because I know it's not (Dr. Edd)
7. I read a book about cults, and we don't fit some of the definitions (although even Jose Winter has to admit that her cult DOES fit one of the four defintions to a T, which is imputing charismatic/divine power to Maharaji (how did THAT get in?)) (I would also disagree with her that the Maharaji cult doesnt have a 'belief system,' because, of course, it does so that makes two out of four from Mr. Galanter.)

Aside from the fact that Josie admits one of the above characteristics, and given they are all gushing and grateful for 'the gift' which they say fulfills their lives, we are really getting there, aren't we? One remaining characteristic conveniently ignored, is discouraging and censoring dissent.

Note that not ONE of the testimonials has even the teensiest criticism of Maharaji or Elan Vital. Maharaji apparently has NEVER done anything wrong. And doesn't it speak volumes that the cult sites are all censored? Notice that Pia did not print even ONE of the MANY dissenting views that have been sent into her website from ex-premies, all of which have been published here.

Finally, also note that Amaroo and darshan, and the exclusive nature of the event are not mentioned.

Finally, saying one isn't in a cult because he or she would never do that is nuts. The nature of being in a cult, like addiction, is that you don't know you are. The thousands of us who are ex-premies were all once in the very cult that these people are now in, and I wager NONE of us thought we were in a cult at the time. That's the nature of the beast. If you thought you were in a cult, you wouldn't be in it, now would you?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:35:41 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Defense based on vague platitudes
Message:
Great post Joe, very well put.
The mere fact that they feel they have to keep on defending themselves by saying we are not in cult all the time and the fact they keep banging on about this new French law; like it's some sort of bogyman that's coming to get them is proof enough to anyone with half a brain that they are in a cult. The sad fact is we have all been there and know what it feels like to be in a cult but feeling that the last thing we were in was a cult. It took me 13 years to finally see that I was in one. The only thing that really opened my eye to the truth was coming here. So let hope a lot of premies who go to Pia site decide to check out what the critics are really saying and come here.

Love kev.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:05:12 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Joe
Subject: Denial regarding cults...
Message:
It's commonly believed in the west that a cult must be a really terrible thing. Therefore, if you are not absolutely miserable, then you must not be in a cult.

Yet cults are florishing. In India, they are so commonplace, that people actually brag about being members. The Rhadosoami cult from which M. borrows heavily, describes itself on it's website as ''India's most popular and fastest growing cult''. In our own country, cults like Scientology advertise on TV, and the Moonies own a mainstream newspaper. Conservative politicians accept their finacial support.

People stay in cults, because they believe they are getting something out of it. The fear or paranoia of ''losing'' that something keeps them from looking at it more objectively.

Many premies like to compare Maharajism to extream cults like Jim Jones and the People's Temple. They take comfort in the differences, as evidence that they are not in a cult.

But I suggest that anyone who would really make a comparison, be willing to open both eyes and look at EVERYTHING. The truth always holds up to scrutiny.

In a comparison to Jim Jones, I would be the first to conceed that there are some big differneces between M. and J.J. Truely, M. is by no means ''just like'' J.J. The problem is, the premies think that because there are big differences, there are NO similarities worth mentioning, and stop there. Anyone making a comparison should be more honest. The bad similarities are:

1.) Claims of divinity that are publicly denied, but privately encouraged (''Sing Arti like you MEAN it'', ''Think of me when you die'' so you can recieve HIM at the moment of death).

2.) Idolization, which allows the idolized person to be held above all critical examination (''NEVER DOUBT the purity of the Master'').

3.) Paranoia, a form of fear used to keep anything that threatens the BS (Belief System) at a distance. Hence M's paranoia satsangs, about not listnening to ''the Doubtmaker'', stories about fish nets and spider webs, Arjun killing his relatives when his Master told him too, because ''They were already dead'' (Didn't have Knowledge). M. suggested that the dead relatives were the doubting thoughts in the mind, but it's still creepy. He has a habit of revising things. What will he revise it to mean tommorrow?

M's own growing paranoia, as evidenced by the presence of armed guards at Amaroo, is disquieting, to say the least.

I conceed Jim Jones used mind control techinques and paranoia much more agressively and intensely than M. People's Temple member's freedoms were much more restricted. Jim Jones was a millionair, who cared nothing for worldy luxuries, unlike our Goober. Jones taught that he was the reincarnation of Christ and Buddha, he taught a form of Christian-socialism, and had some bizaare faux-suicide ritual in his church, originally symbolic of dying to the old life to be born again into the new, that later evolved into the real thing . I don't think M. is that crazy, and I hope he never becomes that crazy. I can only say I don't know him, I can't read his mind, and that ANY human being could fall prey to an organic brain disorder (tumor, cancer, etc.) that could affect their sanity. He's only human, after all.

The reason I've posted links on the forum to Rev. Moore's essay, is because he so clearly explains, by real-life example, the dangers of someone claiming divinity, using the resulting idolization to instill paranoia to maintain control, crush dissent and debate, and maintain secrecy. The resulting power, concentrated in the hands of one person, leaves you with a situation where all kinds of abuses can happen.

So while we can honestly acknowledge the differences in compairing M. with a cult leader like Jim Jones, dare we dismiss the similarities for abuse? M. does not have to be a monster, and his organization doesn't have to be a suicide cult, for people to be hurt by the lies, secrecy and deception. People have already been hurt. The lies, secrecy and deception continue. If M. were just a meditation teacher, as he is presented to aspirants as being, he would not have this controversy surrounding him. If M. had nothing to hide, he wouldn't be worried about being scrutinized by the media.

I also found websites like that of Faqir Chand facinating, because he explains so clearly how the ''experiances'' people have and relate to a guru are really generated by their own belief and faith, and not any mystical, supernatural or divine powers. The power of belief is very strong, and what you believe often creates what you percieve.

I welcome one-sided sites like Pia's, because they just demonstrate that M. can't stand up to scrutiny. It shows how the cult mind-set cannot embrace the larger picture, and survive.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:33:18 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Exactly Joe,and platitudes are all they have(nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:10:37 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, junkies have more self-knowledge than pwks
Message:
Great post and one minor point:

The nature of being in a cult, like addiction, is that you don't know you are.

I'm pretty sure junkies know they're hooked, not that they'll always admit it.

I'm convinced that this thing has turned into a religion based on faith in Rawat as Satguru. Rawat should just go with it. He's already set up legally as a church.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:00:05 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Remember the triangle*
Message:
Da Nollidge, Da Massah, en y'all.

The belief states that without a relationship with the master, the techniqes alone don't or won't work (as well, or something like that.)

The 'relationship to the master' is a wholly subjective experience unique for each individual.

This is one of the main tenets of the holy religion of Maharajism.

*Thanks to my phone pal, I trust you take this in good humor, bud. You know I'm a good listener :-)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:45:14 (GMT)
From: bazza
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pia's site full of MANIACS
Message:
I know you shouldn't laugh at your own jokes but I love my new name for PWK's=

MANIAC (Maharaji Admirer Not In A Cult)

Seems to fit the contributors to Pia's site......we love, admire, respect, glorify, worship - no, not worshp oops - are grateful to, appreciate etc etc this Indian dude, fly around the world to see him, line up to kiss his feet, stand up and put our hands together as in prayer when he walks on stage.....but:

WE ARE NOT IN A CULT !!!!

Hey, I believe you...really I do.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:29:09 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: bazza
Subject: MANIAC - Maharaji admirer not in a cult
Message:
That one will stick, Bazza. Brilliant. They may not be in a cult but they sure are in a closet with their ''love that dare not speak its name.''
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:50:24 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bazza
Subject: Pia's site full of MANIACS
Message:
OK to laugh at own joke but should thank muse.
I wonder though Bazza if I should read any more. Haven't yet but will but it seems to have this obsessive quality to it.
I recognize it well, it's that feeling of when I just KNOW I am right about something and someone puts me down for it. I can't let it go for ages. Can we think of an acronym for this
?
for now, I will declare it pia syndrome. (why does that remind me of M's face inside a thrown pie?)

and no I don't have morning sickness. sigh. people don't even ask me when I am due anymore, when my belly gets fat.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:13:48 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: or Pia Maniac Syndrome ?
Message:
I need a life. Am still at home, that is my excuse.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:31:12 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: PMS - that's naughty Selene - but I like it ! nt
Message:
x
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:42:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: PMS - well it's sorta on my mind
Message:
Thanks Moldy (I always want to say Wrap)
I think PMS fits the pia syndrome just fine based on my last couple days!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:56:54 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp
To: Selene
Subject: PMS - well it's sorta on my mind
Message:
Huum... tell me about it.... got all sorts of hormones floating aboot at the mo... but that's probably an off-forum topic!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:05:15 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: PMS - an off topic that regularly appears :)
Message:
wonder why?
oh that Pia let's call it Pia MANIAC Syndrome for now and blame her I just read some more of the site. It is truly funny viewed from one aspect.

Hell everyone has heard of cults and the wording on that site just condemns them.
People just ain't that stupid, I mean most of them, I hope anyway!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:11:17 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Pia MANIAC Syndrome it is then ... as long as
Message:
it doesn't carry any connotations of 'hysterical women' .. in the original sense of 'women's wombs making us irrational'!!
Though... having said that.. all these bloody hormones $%^&
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:18:16 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: oops I was not PC again?
Message:
I have a knack for it, I swear it's built in I screw up without trying. Well I am not going to deny that any emotional triggers at 'that' time do indeed get magnified to the nth degree.

But I used to get SO mad when my first husband would say 'Are you due for ....'
ok we must stop. how to get this back on topic? Post Maharaji Syndrome? naaaaa... ick...

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:38:13 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: oops I was not PC again - worry not
Message:
We women worry (more than men?? - I dunno - so (attempting to get back on topic)... more like Pre Maharaji Syndrome (?) as in... there's nothing like a lot of worry, angst, depression to get a person (of either sex) into a cult.
All that stuff along the lines of 'I am climbing a mountain (to the tune of the abbess's song in 'The Sound of Music')... I know I will get there IN THE END' (for that read... ' I am lonely, fucking depressed, there must be something better out there somewhere'.
xx
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:27:18 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: 'How do you solve a problem like Maria?'
Message:
...is one of life's great unanswered questions. As is 'Why do penguin bars with green wrappers taste better than the rest'?

or:

'Where do biros go?'

'How come, if they never stop having to paint it, you never see anyone actually painting the Forth Road Bridge'?

'How did Tim Rice get the Nobel Prize for Literature, or whatever it was...?'

'Did Sir Elton really win an Oscar for his film music?'

'What is the queen for?'

'How could you love a fuckwit like me?'

'Why is William Hague reported to be 'optimistic'?'

'Do fish believe in God?'

I ask mysElF all these questions and often draw a blank...

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:42:32 (GMT)
From: mOLDY WARP
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: 'How do you catch a clod and pin it down' oops
Message:
meant cloud -

Answers
1 Because they belong to the green party - which haven't a hope in hell cos there's not proportional rep. here... and anyway frank thinks if they got in we'ed soon have a fascist state!

2 To biro- heaven of course (!)

3 Well actually I HAVE seen them paint it (somewhere in my youth or childhood!!!!!)

4. Tim Rice - Christ knows - but who'd ask him

5. elton John can piss off

6. Putting on mugs

7. Cos you're totally perfect and I don't care who knows

8. No answer for that one W. Hague is a moron

9. If fish do they're on a loser

10. Very IMPressive set of questions... I thoughtxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:49:16 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: mOLDY WARP
Subject: youse guys need to speak english ya know
Message:
I try. I really do. But often don't get it, - oh 'it' in this case meaning the humor oops humour. And I'm not blonde.
And a walk in is a dead person ghost type thing who inhabits unwary bodies.
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 02:34:47 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I don't :0
Message:
hahahahaha....

Spam is not a ham, u know?

hahahahaha....

Love is free of charge... real love; maharaji charges for his. What a HAM!!

I have to call you...you'll laugh when I tell you where I was today.

I'm glad to see you're having fun.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:58:00 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: I don't either
Message:
Whatever it is I'm innocent! :)
Hope all is ok silvia. Feel free to call anytime, remember I may not answer but if you leave a msg. I'll return. oh yeah and btw it voice msg. I don't have an answering machine just voice msg. service.
I'm here and am wishing you all the best I think I have been in some of the places you have in some ways. lots of love,

S (the other one)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:56:17 (GMT)
From: Moldy warp
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: youse guys need to speak english -sorry Selene
Message:
Encoded messages between me and my lover....
Sorry - don't know wotya mean about blonde...
Hey - i thought walk-ins must be like film extras... as in 'walk-on-parts... (semantic slippage as my mad cultural theory supervisor would say...)
I get it now..
Theyre ZOMBIES
That fits

xxx Moldy

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:59:32 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Moldy warp
Subject: oh!
Message:
uh .. well how about those walk-ins huh?
Love you both. Am smiling.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:03:43 (GMT)
From: Moldy warp
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Luvya too selene - no more ZOMBIE land for us babe
Message:
Scary stuff... zombies.... but no more of that crap now we've all found each other and sanity on ex-premoe org....
Come here all you weary travellers
And you'll feel sooooo much better
xxxxxxx MW
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:13:34 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Moldy warp
Subject: not blonde Katie don't kill me
Message:
Another culturism I guess. Dumb blonde jokes reference as to why I didn't get your joke. oh oh.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 13:40:19 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Hey, I'm smarter than I look :)
Message:
I have to say that all the time at work (being female doesn't help much either!). Sometimes it's quite irritating when my intelligence gets under-estimated because of my hair color, but I guess it's better than the opposite :).

Oh yeah, Moldy and Nige should get a room! Sheesh guys...

Love you,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:04:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: you are smart of course
Message:
I'm feeling pretty dumb that I didn't even pick up on it :)
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:37:06 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Sorry Katie !! xx nt
Message:
x
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:12:38 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: No worries Selene nightie night xxxx Moldy
Message:
x
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:05:03 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Hi Moldy! (response from inactive) (ot)
Message:
Hi Moldy,

Just missed posting to you before that thread went inactive, and this seemed like a good place to drop this in! I haven't read your conversation with Selene, but I am curious about why she's worried about Katie (of all people!!!) killing her! ;-)

Hmmmm ... I guess I never looked at it the same way. I saw it as a kind of stepping back and trying to look at it in new ways. The time I threw it that I referred to in my post to Nigel was very simple - I was exhausted from a very demanding trip and used the I-Ching that the friend I was staying with had - not the Wilhelm/Baynes version - it wasn't as good, and some of the translations take far too much license to become more specific, as far as I'm concerned. Anyways - that time all I needed was someone else to tell me to slow down (okay, so I had to hear it 3X to take it REALLY seriously - at least I finally listened), because I go into overdrive and push myself too far. Not a difficult decision. I'd say that it helped me a few times to be more philosophical about things, but I've never consulted anything (or anyone;) very often, and I haven't exactly sought it out either. I'm not too interested in knowing the future ... just living each day as well as I can no matter what comes up.

I know what you mean about some topics hitting a nerve - you hit one of my minor ones! ;-) It's been nice talking with you. I remember when you first arrived; I liked your posts (and your name!). I was very happy to hear that you and Nigel have hit it off. I don't know him much more than I know you, but you both seem to be people I could have a great time with one night -- if you ever made it to Montreal! ;-)

You mention cultural theory - is that your field of work/study? I am a big fan of Edward Hall, although I haven't read much of him.

Have a great weekend!

Anna

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 17:45:32 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Because I'm blonde...OT/NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:13:56 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Stonor
Subject: Hi Stonor (OT)
Message:
Nice to talk to you again. Well I used to be into a canny few New Age things but since being at uni I have got out of it all.. basically I feel much happier with ordinary (so-called) reality...
I'm still torn about homeopathy though as I know some interesting research that seems to confirm it's effectiveness (but Nige doesn't agree!). It (or at least going to my homeopath) has done wonders for me... especially in the last 6 months... when I have worked through a lot of cult/crap marriage stuff...
Hey - sorry I hit a nerve... I thought you were a man when I wrote that first reply to you... somehow I think I can write more bolshee posts to the guys (!!!)
Montreal sounds fun... is it near Quebec?? I've got a very good friend there...
As for cultural theory... my music dept is obsessed with it... it is a pile of CRAP but I have to 'engage' with it (CT speak) to get funded for research.
Will try to have brilliant weekend --- hope you have one too
love Moldyxx

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 14:41:25 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor21@hotmail.com
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Hi Moldy (OT)
Message:
Hi Moldy,

I've always had my feet in both worlds, and at this point, I'm quite glad. ;-)

Wrt homeopathy (which I don't see at all as 'new age') ... we seem to have had similar experiences - I haven't found that article I mentioned to Nigel, but I know it's here somewhere, and my summer job (clearing my back-log of paper filing, among other things) should mean that I will come across it within the next couple of months. I think that research was reported in the Lancet. I went to their site but, butter-fingers me, I think I mistyped my password ('anna'!! - how much easier can I make it for myself?!), and I don't know what the typo was, so I have to wait for them to email it to me before I can try again. :(

Montreal is the largest city in the province of Quebec (you know, the French one that has been agitating to separate from Canada?). Actually, until the Parti Quebecois came into power about 25 years ago, it was the largest in Canada (lots of corporate head-offices and anglophones - English-speakers - left then). Its provincial capital is Quebec City ... is that where your friend lives, or is it somewhere in this province? Montreal is supposed to be one of the best cities in the world to live in, and from my travels and what I've heard, so far I have to agree ... although I find all large cities are basically the same, Montreal is quite unique in it's level of 'multiculturalness', and in not feeling so big that it overwhelms the humans living in it - still somehow retains its sense of community. Not sure why, given the apparent divisions! ;-) One of our hospitals was called 'The Homeopathic Hospital of Montreal' until the 'modern' medical industry made a concerted and long-term effort to discredit this wonderful branch of medicine.

So, 'Larkin' writes lyrics and you write/play music? Sounds like a great team! And yes, I know about the 'jargon' in a few fields ... when I read papers from my communication studies days, I can't believe the jargon I could throw around when critiquing a film, for example!

My next round of sprouting carrot seed is waiting to go into the ground, so I will end here and email you sometime soon!

Love,

Anna

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:49:47 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: bazza
Subject: Pia's site full of MANIACS
Message:
That IS funny. I just posted below (where you first used it) as you were posting here.

That sums up Pias site to t.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:18:44 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Tonette...'ex-lover label'
Message:
In a post below Tonette stated ( with tongue in cheek ) that she would miss the ex-lover label.

Isn't it STRANGE that the term only lasted for a few days on Pia's site? Was it a result of orders from on high that had it removed? Doesn't it reveal a real schizophrenic attitude in the premie community?

They love and value Rawat more than anything and anyone else yet are afraid to use the word in PUBLIC. I mean 'lover' and 'ex-lover' does sound very intimate. Not 'respcter' 'ex-respecter ' or something impliying great esteem but LOVER/ EX-LOVER. Yet ..poof ! ...it's gone. And so far most, if not all, the readers responses talk about Maharjji with great respect,yes, but NOT with over the top ADULATION. I wonder how many of the writers attended Amaroo and how many took advantage of the feet kissing ritual. Isn't that a sign of intense, excessive adulation? It is in my book.

There is (and frankly, nearly always has been ...nearly.. because in the very early days I remember treading the streets proclaiming the LOTU is here)an inherent dishonesty in EVERYTHING that emanates from Rawat and his organisation. From the first tentative...knowledge is cool, why not try it 'Introduction ' to his world ,to the eventual Rawat personality cult. Now the very people who would jump at the chance to kiss Rawats feet and sing arti to him have the GALL to state publically that EXes (stuck in a 70's mindset) were the ones who made 'Guru Maharaj Ji ' the Lord, supreme power or what have you and it was nothing to do with Rawat.

So ...when I was treading the streets propagating and carrying a copy of the 'Divine Times ' with a blaring headline 'The lord of the Universe has come ' next to a big picture of Rawat....he never knew about this? He never took steps to stop the publication of that and similar publications? He just let us carry on thinking and believing in him and adoring him.But that was our fault not his???

So 30 years on ....the adulaton,adoration and LOVE has to be very carefully toned down when in public.He just has 'charisma'. In private, the footkissing and arti singing continues. There , he is ' Divine'.

Well i'm glad I'm an ex-lover. More fool me that I did love him but I guess 'love' pretty much describes the commitment I put in .....not just ' hey, I admire and respect the guy. He talks sense and has charima'.

Rawat, his organisation and , sadly, his followers are AFRAID to admit the truth of their game in PUBLIC.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:01:28 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Tonette...'ex-lover label'
Message:
Good point. Too bad she didn't leave it. They will continue to blow it though, because they can't get out of the mindset. If it isn't that gaffe, it will be another.

Great post!

love, f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:26:11 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Current PWKs are CLOSET guru-lovers
Message:
And who the hell wants to be in a closet?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:51:34 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What Mili says
Message:
From 'What the readers say' at it-aint-so.org:

By Milivoi

'The Combat article

Its a shame that a supposedly liberal, left-wing magazine would embark on a campaign, which in it's very nature is repressive, hate-inciting and reminiscent of the mentality of St. Bartholomew's night and the persecution of the Hugenots. France should be ashamed of this.'

Mili's name is Milivoi, see Mili's page WARNING: partial nudity and a MIDI.

Mili, why don't you add a link to it-aint-so.org to your page?

Note: At the 'What the readers say' page there is also a blurb from Dalit Fresco. Any relation to Jossi Fresco, Rawat's webmaster?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:42:38 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: What Mili says
Message:
Hi G!

I'm not Mili, but I think I can answer your question, 'Mili, why don't you add a link to it-aint-so.org to your page?'

Wrt why he hasn't put a link on his page, it seems he realizes that he can propagate better by not being up-front about his premie-trip in 'public' - only with premies and exes. His modus-operandi seems to be to create diverse links to attract a wide variety of 'spiritually' oriented people whom he can then kindly 'guide' to a 'true' path (sarcasm emoticon still needed). I know this from personal experience of emailing with him for about 2 months before it became more a little more clear. When I began to learn more, I looked at his keyword list - everything spiritual under the sun, including 'XXX'. Until I found FV, I had no idea to what extent he is a religious extremist. The fact that he was even posting here was a shock, as was his reaction when he figured out who 'Stonor' was (he accused me of being an EPO plant! ;-). (I initially did not post using my own name because I worried he might see it sometime, and had had enough verbal abuse from him.) If he hadn't been posting here, I very much doubt I would still be here now, but I am someone who is always trying to understand what is going on. Initially I had actually hoped that I might be able to contribute to his process of leaving, but at this point, I doubt very much that anyone can do that. I find the whole cult thing very tragic.

If you look back to my first post to Deputy Dog around the end of Feb. 2000, you might be able to figure out what I was saying about deceptive 'propagation' techniques - that was why I posted. Of course I soon realized that this is a given in the cult world and nobody here would have batted an eye about it.

Anna

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:56:14 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Deception a given in a cult
Message:
Good post Stonor, thanks.

Yes, deception propaganda techniques are a given in a cult. Cult members rationalize lying by telling themselves that their supposedly good ends justifies the means. It shows an incredible lack of respect for people.

At least for some cult members, I think there is a tendency for this dishonesty and disrespect to creep into other aspects of their lives, into the way they generally relate to other people.

'His modus-operandi seems to be to create diverse links to attract a wide variety of 'spiritually' oriented people whom he can then kindly 'guide' to a 'true' path (sarcasm emoticon still needed).'

I noticed that about his web page. He's not at all up front about what he is doing.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:54:01 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Just for the record ...
Message:
Earlier today, out of curiosity, I checked out what was going on with Mili's Soho Cafe/Isis Cafe site - don't know what's going on there, but when I found it through 'Alan Watts' and lopped off the 'Watts' to get to the main page, I ended up at the 'Mili's page' we were talking about. I don't know when he added it, but he now has a link to 'Knowledge', which is the Elan Vital site. It's really turning into a 'Come to Croatia!' page (which is an echo of my 'Come to the ashram!' - my summation of a Guru Mayi video I saw a while ago, but I'll never know if that's part of his 'propagation' agenda! (Thank Whatever-It-Is) :-)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:12:23 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: G
Subject: 'Not at all up front' - exactly, G
Message:
Mili does what the premies I knew did, what we all did - probably what present premies like CW and other still do...

You understand on some unconscious level that M's 'message' needs diluting, that his would-be converts need massaging a little to make them receptive. Get them to trust YOU first, because you know damn well you couldn't just hand them a leaflet, JW style, or even bring them to a video straight away, even one which featured M's most judiciously-edited extracts and expect a spontaneous inner-kindling of holy recognition in the newbie.

Plain wouldn't happen. Why not, I wonder? Like Chuck said yesterday, lower down: WE were the love that other premies responded to. WE were the satsang experience, not some Satellite Saviour with a lifestyle and drinking habit to maintain.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:13:31 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yes
Message:
Exactly, and Rawat has sucked the remaining life out of his cult, it is so dry. He's pretty stupid really, thinking that it is himself that attracts people. What a melagomaniac.

It's a shame that we attributed our own qualities to a fraud.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:28:43 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I bat my eyes
Message:
But then I talk in a stupid whispery Marilyn (the other one) voice too.

Mili has left me alone and I want to keep it that way. ick I hate talking to premies and don't know why people here do it. But I suppose it is good someone does, lest we just ignore or censor them and be like M's web site.

You are not a plant, though you do grow some nice ones :)

I am reading all the threads which I never do because I rarely have the time or am into other things. And your post made me think about how we all found EPO. I think it's been very intense for a lot of us.
I have often, as recent as yesterday, wanted to write my 'i'm not posting anymore' post because it is all so hard sometimes.

We had a shaky start..just wanted to say hi

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:36:39 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: LOL Selene!- what kind of propagation is that? ;-)
Message:
Yeah ... I know I've always found it hard to talk to people who are in a cult - even less obvious ones than m's! At one point or another it always makes me uncomfortable at very least - they really can't see the reality of their situation easily, can they? But that's the point of brainwashing, isn't it? They are like pushy salespeople or drug-pushers - 'Try it, you'll like it ... .'

Mili was pretty smooth at the beginning. The first time I noticed a link he had at his site about premie friends, I asked him about what premies were - 'Aren't they guru-groupies?' So he admitted he had received k from m, put most other premies down as disfunctional 'loosers' and said that he was different - sounded like all of them, of course. I think he had 'form' letters prepared at the beginning, but when they ran out, and he continued to evade issues and be covertly aggressive about the m-trip, it became clearer and clearer. Despite the fact that I have little hope of him breaking free, I feel sorry for him - it has been and still is not the happiest place in the world where he is living right now, and some of his family background is not an idyllic picture (not that many of ours are! ;-). He is not-at-all purely malicious, and it saddens me to see him behaving so pathetically here. I guess that's part of what the cult brings people down to, even if they seem to have it relatively together. The paranoia ... Susan posted that excerpt about the early days above ... you can see the beginning of the paranoia there.

The intensity of FV has become more and more understandable over time after learning more about what you have all been through. As you know, I've been dealing with some difficult stuff that, although quite different, has made me more sensitive to certain things at times as well. I think I shared in creating that shaky start Selene, and I'm very happy that despite everything, we have managed to get to know each other better!

Much love to you,

Anna

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 14:37:17 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Worshipping the Absurd
Message:
Stonor (on Mili, from Croatia): Despite the fact that I have little hope of him breaking free, I feel sorry for him - it has been and still is not the happiest place in the world where he is living right now

According to Worshipping the Absurd 'The Negation of Social Causality among the Followers of Guru Maharaj Ji.' By Daniel A. Foss and Ralph W. Larkin (Rutgers University), in Sociological Analysis, 1978. Page 157-164.

Premies-to-be come to the Mission already motivated to avoid formulating a comprehensive interpretation of the wider society.

The paper, hosted here, explains how it is that the most vulnerable so often fall into the clutches of the likes of Rawat.

JohnT
- never a premie either

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:52:26 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: done with propagation and happy to be
Message:
yeah the mindset of 'I'm different from the others' was eerie when combined with the I'm your sister/brother let's sing Arti in a low whisper so
THEY won't know.

I'm happy that you can see some of what makes me , well, me.
I don't ever and don't think I ever in the past, blame M for all of my shit. That would be weird. All I say is, I got a fucking crappy toolkit and joining in his game did NOT help and DID hurt.

Selene still swearing but cold is better. Love to you.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:53:20 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Mili's looking for a cause
Message:
Thus the inflamed rhetoric and off-the-wall comparisons.

Mili, this ain't the Resistance versus the Nazis - sorry.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:57:35 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: rhetoric
Message:
When the notion to ban based on beliefs is brought up we have an issue that is important. There have been several posts on this site favoring the action of a ban.
What is the call to ban M from his travels in Europe and being able to give programs that many people are interested in attending?

Defend your case and put forth your criticisms and beliefs. Fine.
But when the tone turns towards righteousness and revenge people do need to take a stand.
There is a tradition in the US to honor the rights of even those who you strongly disagree with.
Nobody has all the right answers.
We are all legends in our own minds.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 13:13:20 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: righteousness and revenge ?
Message:
Hi Chris -
You wrote:

Defend your case and put forth your criticisms and beliefs. Fine. But when the tone turns towards righteousness and revenge people do need to take a stand.
There is a tradition in the US to honor the rights of even those who you strongly disagree with.

Are you talking to me, or to Mili - because his post REEKED of 'righteousness and revenge'. Much of the content of Pia's site does also. Mili's post was quite inflammatory - and irritated me because, as I said, I think he's just looking for a fight.

I don't like seeing Jean-Michel demonized by name or nationality for 'putting forth his criticisms and beliefs'. I don't like to see the rest of us smeared by inference and innuendo. I don't think 'it-ain't-so' or ANY of the premie sites acknowledges that ex-premies are human beings with legitimate grievances. That makes me angry.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:36:02 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: r and r
Message:
>Mili's post was quite inflammatory - and irritated me because, as I said, I think he's just looking for a fight.

Inflammatory? I don't get you here Katie.
The Combat article called for a ban on the ability of M to travel and give talks in Europe.
That is what Mili's short post seems to be in response to.

I don't condone a ban on M's travels and programs or a ban on the ability of the ex-premies to post on this site.

If the Combat magazine is promoting a ban, then they are the ones looking for a fight. I also find it odd that the Combat magazine is worried about what Elan Vital is up to. Apparently the bigger political and economic problems in France are too much for them to tackle.

>I don't like seeing Jean-Michel demonized by name or nationality for 'putting forth his criticisms and beliefs'.

I also do not think that Jean-Michel should be demonized.
If he tries to be the instigator of some sort of ban then he should be confronted on that issue.

CD

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:08:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: And you, Chris? Legend in your own mind?
Message:
Let's hear the secret Ballad of Chris Dickey. The full version. It can't be THAT long, can it?

And -- I'm almost afrid to ask: how many guitars did you buy TODAY, Chris? Not yesterday. That was the Supreme Parker Fly, right? I'm talking today?

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