Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 06:12:05 (GMT)
From: Jun 07, 2001 To: Jun 14, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


Sandy -:- Jim: Response from inactive -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:10:39 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Sandy, please take it to Anything Goes...it's OT! -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:21:34 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Katie and all else who wants this to go away... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:39:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- 'I am doing this for the good of the group' -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:31:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Your response was not for being boring... -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 05:01:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- You can't even read straight can you? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 06:23:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Bazza -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 12:27:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- 'Mommy he started it' -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 15:48:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Not quite, Baz -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 13:44:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Don't take it so personally then -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:53:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh shut up, already -- either put up or shut up -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:50:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- I'm putting up....with you -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:06:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, no, no, no, NO -- that's not it -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:39:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Five no's...are you sure you are not OCD? -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:18:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's amazing! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 00:43:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- YOU OUGHT TO BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF, JIM, REALLY! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 12:49:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- ALL THAT SMOKE INSTEAD OF SIMPLY ANSWERING? -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:47:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Bag it Sandy -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:27:27 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- You've had similar arguments with me, Katie? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:34:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Sheesh, Jim! -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:51:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- See how he does it NOW, Katie??? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:46:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sheesh, Jim! -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 16:07:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- JH -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:56:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- SP -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:50:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Further inspiration from the Onion -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:43:12 (GMT)
__ SteveM -:- drop it , let go, it's only ego . nt -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:00:30 (GMT)

Carl -:- On Hindu Prudery, Gay Closets, accepting the urge -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 12:04:49 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- On Hindu Prudery, Gay Closets, accepting the urge -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:43:51 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Thanks, Dermot, but don't give up on couples -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:02:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- No prob Joe -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:40:29 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Bisexuality - I fell for Monmot at Latvian Night -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:32:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Bisexuality - I fell for Monmot at Latvian Night -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:50:13 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Similar Experience -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:05:16 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Lost many premie friends -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:41:09 (GMT)
__ __ Carl -:- Similar Experience -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:42:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- The Young Republican Period -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:03:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- The recent stats are scary .....................OT -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:17:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The recent stats are scary .....................OT -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:23:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- African-Americans and Latinos -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:16:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- RC and Condoms -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:37:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- ads for anti-virals with robust mountaineers etc -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:11:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Yeah, but that's not my main gripe -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:49:01 (GMT)
__ Way -:- On Hindu Prudery, Gay Closets, accepting the urge -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:17:09 (GMT)
__ __ Carl -:- On Hindu Prudery, Gay Closets, etc. -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:54:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- On Hindu Prudery, Gay Closets, etc. -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 16:15:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- To Carl, Way and Joe -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:34:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- To Pat: I'm not gonna tell (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:49:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Ah, go on. Pretty please (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:33:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Yes, we lost many friends -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:37:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, we lost many friends but not Bob/Victor -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:42:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Damn, I've thought of Mark S from time to time -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:08:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, I counted Joey among the survivors -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:19:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- A wonderful, funny and sobering post Pat -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:27:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thank god I put Chuck before the cult -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:33:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Hey my 3D Email and cyberspace pals on this thread -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:47:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Moldy -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:55:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Yer Welcome Pat... dinna worry boot Email -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:59:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Will do... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:01:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Pat - got any spare fags -- think I'm gonna run -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:04:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- I am not surprised you couldnt sleep... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:57:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Not THOSE kinds of spoons, Loaf -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:08:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- British theatre persons,Prudery, Gay Closets, etc. -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:27:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- You mean you're GAY, Oafie old chum...? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:33:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- i thought it was a great but subtle line (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:14:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You psychic or sumfin, Loaf? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:45:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Oh, Loaf, the BTP -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:47:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Possibly Earlier Period. -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:47:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Those bloody BTPs drove me nuts, Loaf -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:40:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Carl -:- Prudery, Gayness, etc. -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:09:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- Christ, they're all a bunch of queers, here....Jim -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 06:05:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- conversion therapy for straight men -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:44:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- Survival of the species? Well, I guess someone's -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:30:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Serves you right for even READING this thread -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:43:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- It's Okay Gary -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:09:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lurker #27 -:- Joe - try to convert our children??????NT -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:41:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Yes.... -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:54:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Speaking Gay Pride Parades . . . -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:16:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Speaking Gay Pride Parades . . . -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:05:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Jimina isn't queer. Most crossdressers're straight -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 07:21:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Prudery, Gayness, etc. -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:13:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Bin - promiscuity doesn't CAUSE disease -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 12:08:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Drop that in the Bin, Bin. -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:28:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- I know it's a virus Joe. -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:46:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- You still got it wrong, Pat you are misinformed -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:38:12 (GMT)

Salam -:- Not for the faint hearted -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 11:13:24 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Not for the faint hearted - cuppa java... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:41:17 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- WANTED: Swami with a bannana -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 05:20:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ sucha bananabucks_shock -:- see,that's FV java code.click java messages,at end -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:17:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SuchaBanana -:- NOT for the faint-hearted: play banana bucks! (ot -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:26:52 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- The Real History of the Combat review -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 09:26:52 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- ...which translates as.... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 10:10:51 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- ...which translates as....in real english-- -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 09:26:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Please Janet, lots of mistakes !!!!!! -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 13:34:33 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- The gist is there -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:51:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Grace grace and more grace !!! -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:45:38 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Not that bad .... anybody to refproof ?(nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 13:28:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Janet, where are you?.........nt -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 13:49:37 (GMT)

nagual rain -:- pia -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 08:47:26 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- pia -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 09:26:47 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- oh groan I knew this would happen -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:04:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- if its so great, why do they all play it down? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:17:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- We all have a crush on Ivette and Janice -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:42:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bazza -:- Cough up! -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 16:11:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I AM! -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 16:27:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Morning sickness? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:29:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- MANIAC :) (NT) -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:45:18 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- pia -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 11:28:13 (GMT)

Deborah -:- Aint-so postings:Testimony/Alibi depositions -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 03:13:36 (GMT)
__ bazza -:- This needs changing -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:55:43 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- 'It ain't so': a knee-jerk title of denial -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 13:37:00 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- 'It ain't so': a knee-jerk title of denial -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:09:18 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- It ain't so:real dumb premphlegm:ironic+comical(nt -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:48:42 (GMT)
__ CW -:- Aint-so postings:Testimony/Alibi depositions -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 07:02:01 (GMT)
__ __ Deborha -:- CW--You are really off-based -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:22:47 (GMT)
__ __ bazza -:- So cat you gonna contribute to pia's site? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:55:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Brad Pitt? The Saint? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:03:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bazza -:- I'm with you mate -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 02:11:03 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Can't you see the difference, Cat? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:48:43 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H. -:- WHICH sites are reactionary here? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- 'Many of you were in a cult of your own creation' -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 10:35:52 (GMT)
__ __ Farti ji -:- Ok CW ,You win.I see the light and I am going back -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 10:31:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ cw -:- Ok CW ,You win.I see the light and I am going back -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:00:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Ok CW so m will only accept people who -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:43:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Ok CW so I will only accept people who -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 04:12:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You really are a silly billy, Pussy Priscilla Pie -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 09:25:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- You really have a big willy, Pussy Priscilla Pie -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:03:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Pussy, I hope it wasn't too big and -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 00:58:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Big? -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 04:47:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I'll show you mine if you show me yours -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 05:15:04 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Victoria, you're bitter and ought to be spayed. -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 07:59:29 (GMT)
__ __ Steve M -:- Thanks Cat -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 07:15:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Thanks Cat -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 07:31:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve -:- Right Cat -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:57:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Victoria, you bitch, you ruined my post to you -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 08:06:34 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- some time ago... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 05:20:02 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Lonely post syndrome -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:31:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Mercedes, Nigel - agree completely! -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:24:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Mercedes, the PWKs NEVER answer any of my posts -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:13:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Victoria Bitter (AKA: CW) -:- Mercedes, the PWKs NEVER answer any of my posts -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:16:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Pussy Pie, about that choker -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:53:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh that hurt .... I thought we were friends -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:31:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Oh that hurt .... I thought we were friends -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 02:49:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Love you Pat and Katie (n/t) -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:08:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- TKU Nigel... (n/t) -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:00:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- One thing worse than Loneley Post Syndrome... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:41:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Moldy warp -:- As Dr. Phil(of Oprah fame - and fortune-) says... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:16:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Hey, Dr so-called Phil... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:33:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy warp -:- Please note Dr. Phil - here is my E mail address -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:21:05 (GMT)
__ __ Catweasel -:- some time ago... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:21:18 (GMT)
__ __ catspiss -:- some time ago... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:14:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Piss and weasel - the cat's chorus... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:38:58 (GMT)

gErRy -:- Get Yer Goober Gear Here... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 01:39:34 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Get Yer Goober Gear Here... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 05:21:03 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- My Vital Dash is drooping, Selene -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:49:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- The Vital Elk Is Dashing -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:39:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- I Meant 'Looked Up Elan' -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:42:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Let's Have A Little More Fun With This -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 16:00:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Don't Stop! -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 12:43:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- So it means 'Surging Elk' ? nt -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:47:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- black hearted realist -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:09:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Stephen King taught me all I know -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:25:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yes lots of good writers -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:37:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- the lard works in mysterious ways, selene -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:49:32 (GMT)

Mercedes -:- floating lotus? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 01:33:57 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Good to see you cough that Haharaji hairball up NT -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:58:05 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- floating lotus? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 08:41:52 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- No floating lotus. -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 11:31:50 (GMT)
__ Steve M -:- No responses ? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 06:58:49 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- No responses ? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:06:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Another hit of addictive darshan - true analogy -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 16:13:07 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:10:39 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim: Response from inactive
Message:
Sandy,

It's obvious what you're doing here. rather than deal with your own words, you try to
compensate for them. Sure, you know what you said about Pia was over the top.
Suggesting that she's no more likely to die than you who could, after all, get hit by a
car. Then adding fuel to fire by saying that the Gita says you shouldn't get worked up
over the dead anyway. (I figure I might as well paraphrase as, even when I quote you
exactly, you accuse me of somehow twisting your words!) You knew that was all new
age smoke you got caught blowing so, quite obviously, you tried to compensate by
getting all nicey-nicey with Pia.

Why can't you ever just deal with things squarely? You said some stuff that was cruel
in a classically new-age way. Unfortunately, you dealt with it true to type as well. -Jim

***

Jim,

You reveal much about yourself in you words, and it's not what you think. I wrote to Pia way before you laid out your case against me or what I said. I don't NEED to compensate, I did not get 'caught', and my business with Pia was not 'nicey nice'.

You get over on people by trying to put them on the defensive from the getgo, making allegations and accusations that are flagrantly false in order to tie up the other person in a defensive argument and not allowing for free and open discourse. In order for you to do your thing, you have to be attacking, and this is a place you can do that unfetterd by a pesky judge. The FA is in your pocket like some backwater speedtrap town judge in the boonies, so you are virutally free to run roughshod and rampant. I said what I said to Pia for reasons you obviously have no understanding of or experience with- having to do with simple kindness and compassion for another human being, transcending opinions.

You also need to label people to get away with your shit, such as constantly using the term 'new age' to divert attention from what is being said, and to try to devalue the message in the minds of the readers. McCarthy used 'pinko' and you use 'new age'. There is no end to the debate with you, only a standoff with onlookers and their oponions, and of course how you see it and how I see it.

I was trained in the art of selling by corporate America. I know all the games, but I don't use them on people just to get my way. I would bet that lawyers learn and know alot more games and gambits to do their job, and know how to mess with words and people like a sailor knows how to tie knots for every purpose to bind this or that. Thing is, many times the truth of the matter gets lost in the legal games and gambits, and the perp walks free because a lawyer knew how to play the games. You practice your craft here and I know it, using me and others - premies and ex-premies alike, to hone your skills. You are the one who ought to be ashamed of yourself, pal. That's like a prfessional wrestler going into a bar and practicing on folks trying to hang out and have a beer and some conversation...them you come along and start twisting arms...and the management won't stop you because you are a regular customer, sometimes you help out being a bouncer, and you get real ugly when things don't go your way.
My personal experience here has changed my viewpoint of Maharaji. Your involvement was if anything, a hindrance and a distraction to this process. If anything, it prolonged and complicated matters. I know you'd like to think that your technique is the dynamite that blows open the doors and opens people up, but I am here to tell you that it creates more obstructions and closes people up. You are an strong, articluate, intelligent blowhard and abuser who gets away with it because you spout the party line.

So I have changed, but you are still an asshole. And your being an asshole made my changing take longer and be more difficult, not because I am a new age flake, but because you are an asshole.

As Winston Churchill said to the disapproving matron who accused him of being drunk one evening:

'My dear woman, it is true that I am drunk, but I shall be sober in the morning and you will still be ugly.'

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, counselor.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:21:34 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy, please take it to Anything Goes...it's OT!
Message:
Hi Sandy -
I hear what you are saying but starting OT threads to continue what has become a personal argument between you and Jim is excessive - not to mention the fact that BOTH you and Jim keep saying the same things about each other - and we are ALL aware that you and he dislike each other. I've had some similar arguments with Jim on this forum, and I can tell you that they are either boring or irritating to most of the other people here.

If you really feel the need to keep rebutting Jim, please take it to Sir David's Anything Goes forum - that's one of the reasons he set it up.

I would much, much, rather hear ON-topic posts from you AND Jim. I think you are wasting your time continuing this argument.

Sincerely,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:39:42 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Katie and all else who wants this to go away...
Message:
Hi Sandy -
I hear what you are saying but starting OT threads to continue what has become a
personal argument between you and Jim is excessive - not to mention the fact that
BOTH you and Jim keep saying the same things about each other - and we are ALL
aware that you and he dislike each other. I've had some similar arguments with Jim on
this forum, and I can tell you that they are either boring or irritating to most of the other
people here.

If you really feel the need to keep rebutting Jim, please take it to Sir David's Anything
Goes forum - that's one of the reasons he set it up.

I would much, much, rather hear ON-topic posts from you AND Jim. I think you are
wasting your time continuing this argument.

Sincerely,
Katie

***

Katie and All,

This is not about who dislikes who, or rebutting, or personal argumentativeness. This is about one person, any person, expressing him or herelf and another person posting an all caps declaration of 'you otta be ashamed of yourself to the other, then picking at nits about whether he twisted the words or the meanings of the words....I am doing this for the good of the group, not just myself. I don't need such personal support or justification. It could, does, has and will happen to as many people as Jim deems fit to be treated that way, and there is no one standing up to say it's bullshit but me. But I bet you alot of folks are agreeing as they read this, still feeling the bad vibes from their shanghied visit to Jim's world. But for some reason, these people don't speak up. And as long as Jim doesn't KNOW from the horse's mouth who he's crossing, he won't believe it. He will only give up this portion of his shtick when he is overpowered by either sheer numbers or by somone he respects, and probably only after a hard verbal struggle to boot. That is all he understands, power, not love, on this site at least.

I too am more than fed up with it. But he came to me, I did not seek him out. That says alot. If he thinks I am so wrong, then why doesn't he give the general readership the credit for being as smart as he is....because he puts himself above everyone else here, that's why. If you want to be 'behind' Jim, the stern parenting surrogate daddy/boss/bully of this site for the duration of your stay here, that is up to you. As for me, no thanks.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:31:14 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: 'I am doing this for the good of the group'
Message:
How very noble of you.

Well why don't we ask 'the group' what THEY think?

Here's my answer:

FUCK OFF YOU BORING BASTARD

But then I never pretended to be eloquent, like Joe or Pat. It's me Norvern blood mate, know what I mean?

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 05:01:49 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Your response was not for being boring...
Message:
It had to be for another reason. All caps bold red does not reflect being bored, it reflects that you were having a much more active experience than boredom from my post, perhaps a realization that I am saying what you and others have been thinking. If you were bored, you could go to other threads, go bowling, read a book, go for a walk...but to take the time to all caps bold red all over, something got to you.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 06:23:07 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: You can't even read straight can you?
Message:
Please tell me you don't believe this shit you write. When was the last time you visited the real world? OK here it is - Boring Bastards don't necessarily create boredom, they create annoyance, see? It one of those illogical figures of speech.

What IS boring is your egotistical idea that you are the vox populii, bickering with Jim 'for the good of the group'. Well as a member of 'the group' I felt I owed it to you to let you know how wrong you are, least from my point of view.

Why haven't the rest of 'the group' chimed in? Well I guess they're out bowling, walking or reading a book, i.e. YOU BORED THEM SHITLESS!!

Any clearer?

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 12:27:57 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Bazza
Message:
Bazza,

I don't think so, Bazza. I think that there are alot of folks here who are equally fed up with Jim's antics and don't want to take sides about it yet.

I'm not perfect either, but I don't go around hitting other posters over the head with shame, guilt, the Oxford, derisive names, verbal upmanship gambits that convolute the dialog, and a general attitude of arrogant superiority. For me, these things are far more damaging and disruptive than whatever it is that I do.

I do have to say that I am equally tired of the whole thing. If you recall, Jim came at me, I did not seek him out. Sometimes I ignore him and sometimes I respond. But I don't seek him out, he looks for me. And when he finds me, I am not always going to roll over and take it. If you really want and end to this for good, why don't you post to Jim to fuck off and leave me the hell alone? That would be a better idea if you really want it to end, because I'm not always going let what he says slide by without responese if it's really out there.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 15:48:46 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: 'Mommy he started it'
Message:
Sandy, saying Jim came after you is really childish. Who cares who threw the last stone? If you really want to prove you are an intelligent, mature person and he is just a prick, then surely if you just let it drop and ignored him from now on, it would make him look like the aggressor if he starts any more threads?

Or better still, why not just answer his criticisms and questions properly? All Jim seems to need is for people to dialogue truthfully without ducking and diving premie fashion.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 13:44:44 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Not quite, Baz
Message:
Yes, I ageee, the high road is a preferable route....Better view, cleaner air, less obstructions, less highway robbers laying in wait, more inspiring.

As for answering properly, how do you do that when somebody begins by telling you that you should be asahmed of yourself for something you said that they twisted THE MEANING AND MOTIVE of?
You are put immediately on the defensive, and I will not let Jim drive any car I'm in ever again, and by that I mean I don't trust him. He hardly ever comes on at face value. He is constantly asking people questions to bait them into a situation where he can spring something on them, I see it all the time.

I'd love to be able to talk straight back and forth with everyone, but it's kind of difficult when someone is always assuming the worst about me. It is he who is not trustworthy. To misspeak, to not be the sharpest knife in the drawer verbally is no sin. But to have above average verbal abilities developed
on the fields of battle in the legal profession and then to come here and BROWBEAT me or anyone else over a point of contention, that is very rude. And it's not just the truth about dirt on Maharaji he's after. He wants to be RIGHT all the time and will impose, or try to impose, his will on anyone and everyone who stands in his way. If you don't see this as a problem common to us all, then maybe you are too close to see it.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:53:18 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Don't take it so personally then
Message:
As for answering properly, how do you do that when somebody begins by telling you that you should be asahmed of yourself for something you said that they twisted THE MEANING AND MOTIVE of?

Well first up you have to calm down and then try to be objective. Did they really twist the meaning and motive, or could that be a fair interpretation of what you said? Or if you feel it was misinterpreted, then simply explain your point more clearly and spell out your motives etc as unambiguously as you can.

Your opinion of and dislike for Jim is no secret and you are entitled think what you will of him. But at the same time, Jim is entitled to be whatever person he is. Your assessment of him is just that...your assessment. It is not one shared by everybody and neither is it unique. But can you not see you are trying to be equally controlling in wanting him to change his style and approach to debate.

So to answer your last question: no I don't see this as being a problem common to all, any more than I see salam's peculiar strain of English or Pat's occasional vulgarity, or even my own bluntness, as being a 'problem'. It's called 'having a personality' and either you like it or you don't. But what is becoming a problem common to all, IMO, is your inability to accept that Jim's personality grinds with yours and always will.

Just agree to disagree and move on. How hard is that? Maybe you think you are being noble by constantly calling attention to Jim's *wickedness* but do you see the troops rallying round you, even the ones who dislike Jim also? No, so you're on a hiding to nothing and eating up valuable forum bandwidth in the process.

Enjoy your day.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:50:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Oh shut up, already -- either put up or shut up
Message:
Here's what you said:

'As for Pia and her cancer, she made outlive us all here, nobody knows....we all have a terminal condition called mortality.
And in the Gita it says that the true devotee laments for neither the living nor the dead.'

From the moment I asked you about this you accused me of twisting your meaning and taking you out of context. But you've never yet explained what your 'real' meaning was and how exactly I took this out of context. I've asked you so many times now but you just don't say. Can't you see how that looks? If you've got an argument, make it. Otherwise your accusation is every bit as empty as that shit over on Pia's site. Think about it.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:06:27 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm putting up....with you
Message:
What the hell is your problem?

1) Pia could outlive us all.

2) We all are mortal and could go anytime. (Except maybe for you, Godjim.)

3) The true devotee laments (look it up) neither for the living nor the dead.

Three true statements, spoken matter-of-factly, not to hurt or to heal, just facts of life. Likelihood is not the issue here. If you don't like what I said, you are entitled to your feelings.

Bottom line, no one knows the future, no one knows who is going to die when regardless of condition, and to lament over it is useless. You got a problem with that? If so, you can print out my post, roll it up real tight, and shove it up your candy ass. You can call me a liar, a clown, a new age freak, whatever you want to. You got your keyboard, go for it. Free will and all that, con-seller.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:39:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: No, no, no, no, NO -- that's not it
Message:
Sandy,

What's wrong? Can't you read? The question was 'how did I twist your words or take them out of context'? Remember? The things you accused me of? How, Sandy? How?

By the way, I also think that what you're saying is offensive twice over but I've already said why. For one thing, likelihood's got everything to do with it. Sure, Pia could outlive us all but what are the chances if she's dying of cancer? Second, your point about the mythical 'true devotee' sucks. You plan to give this advice every one of us loses someone? Who asked for that? You see people falling over each other here trying to be 'true devotees'? You belong somewhere else. True Devotee-ville or someplace.

But, again, for the umpteenth time, how did I twist your meaning or take your words out of context?

Here they are again:

'As for Pia and her cancer, she made outlive us all here, nobody knows....we all have a terminal condition called mortality.
And in the Gita it says that the true devotee laments for neither the living nor the dead.'

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:18:10 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Five no's...are you sure you are not OCD?
Message:
You obviously twisted my meaning if you thought I ought to be ashamed of any of it, you idiot. And you know what else? If you cannot figure it out by now, you are on your own. I am not going to walk into any more of your self-worshipping word traps.

I said what I said in the realization that I could die before her, and therefore she should not and most likely does not want any pity or sympathy.

She understands what I said, I have no more reason or need to say anything else about it in explanation to you, who cry crocodile tears for not being answered properly...poor misunderstood Jim. No one can understand his mysterious ways, but they are righteous for sure. For sure. You are just looking for shit with me, why don't you admit it? If it wasnt' this, it would be something else.

So now it's your turn...who was it in your life who made you so fucked up about messing with others and always feeling the intense need to be right all the time? Who got rough with you verbally over and over in your formative years, teaching you that was what it took to survive? Poor sot. You actually do have the makings of a good guy, but you are bent and twisted in your own way and will not talk about it here, will you? Maybe after you have had a run-in with someone just like you, maybe that will do the trick. I hope it happens soon, for everybody's sake.

Sandy, who doesn't take crap, not even from Jim Heller

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 00:43:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: That's amazing!
Message:
You obviously twisted my meaning if you thought I ought to be ashamed of any of it, you idiot.

That's it? That's it?? So let me make sure I understand this properly: if someone thinks someone else should be ashamed of something they've said, they're somehow twisting that person's words? Honestly, Sandy, is that really what you're saying?

Amazing .... absolutely amazing.

See, I always thought that twisting someone's words or taking them out of context meant misrepresenting someone's words to suggest they were saying something other than what they actually said. But that's not what you're saying at all. You're simply saying that because I thought what you said was offensive in the extreme, I was guilty of that deception.

Don't know what to say to you. You don't talk english, really, do you? Maybe some Disneyland Sanskrit dialect? Soem new age rubber talk? Too much ....

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 12:49:28 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: YOU OUGHT TO BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF, JIM, REALLY!
Message:
(Be honest now, how does that grab ya, to see someone, anyone, telling you in caps that you should be ashamed of yourself for something you said or did? Really honest. I know you will try to come back with some pseudo-witty remark to take the sting off, but the first reaction has occurred, undeniable, hasn't it?)

You ought to be ashamed of the legalistic bullshit you are pulling, the space you have wasted, and the attention of all the people you have copped, just to try to express your disapproval at something I said, and to add insult to injury, you continue your hellerish critique by dissecting my words even though you fully understand what was said, literally and figuratively, letter and spirit. The letter kills and the spirit gives life. You try to kill the spirit and meaning of what other people say with the lifeless, clinical letter to prove your point, and often ignore or miss the spirit entirely. So disapprove all you want to. You are more fucked up than I previously thought.

You twist everything and everyone you don't agree with until it breaks into pieces or you can't bend it anymore. In my case, I am snapping right back at you, something that does not happen very often. Everyone knows it even if they aren't talking out loud. You don't like me because I don't take your crap lying down. And no one is supposed to talk back to YOU, are they? You are a vulgar snob who has nothing really to be a snob about. You are a legend in your own mind. Out here in this reality you are a boorish button down bully and buffoon hiding behind the Oxford, some authors, and your hatred for Maharaji. That is not enough to be a person in your own right. I am sorry that you so lack dimension, but all I can do is point it out and hope you get the message. You cannot hurt me. All your efforts to do so only tesitfy to the great pain that is in you already that you have not come to grips with which has nothing to do with me. Good luck.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:47:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: ALL THAT SMOKE INSTEAD OF SIMPLY ANSWERING?
Message:
You pompous windbag!
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:27:27 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Bag it Sandy
Message:
I don't want to know about what you said. Neither am interested in Pia's sickness. So Take it away.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:34:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: You've had similar arguments with me, Katie?
Message:
You are ever the voice of fairness and wisdom, huh?

You know, when I read your 'pox on both your houses' bullshit I feel like posting to Sandy ALL DAY LONG. But I won't. I made my point. You just made YOURS. What a relief, eh?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:51:08 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sheesh, Jim!
Message:
Have I EVER claimed to be 'the voice of fairness and wisdom'? I am just stating my opinions here. If you don't like them, that's fine, but don't fucking generalize about me.

Yes, I have had similar fights with you - taking up large portions of threads, and spilling over into other ones. They were almost about something OT - or at least ended up as OT. And I know that lots of people were bored, irritated, or upset by them - except the ones who enjoy the 'soap opera' aspect of the forum.

Don't YOU ever get bored by this stuff?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:46:27 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: See how he does it NOW, Katie???
Message:
First he 'tags' you as the 'voice of fairness and wisdom'. Then you have to or are strongly tempted to go off course from the conversation to deal with that, then he acts all flippant and above-it-all. These are LEGAL TACTICS, some of which he would be called on in a court of law and JAILED FOR contempt if he would not cease and desist. He loves to call me new age and a liar for that reason.

I doubt he could be any other way at this point. I think he has merged with his profession, sold his soul for the tools of manipulating other people. That's what it looks like to me.

And Janet thinks he's honorable and has his shit together, because he pulls a paycheck and has a woman on his arm...yeah, like every person who has those things has their shit together.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 16:07:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Sheesh, Jim!
Message:
Your saying you've had similar fights with me puts you in Sandy's shoes, implying that you agree with him, etc. You and I have argued about many things here, principally about your defending premies like your friend Mili. Do I get bored by these tihngs? Sure. I'd be happier if Sandy never said the shit he says, like what he originally wrote about Pia. But, he does and somehow, this being a discussion board, I respond. And there we go.

Now whose fault is it really? This forum is full of people saying things and others taking them up on it. (Like you and I are doing right now). Sandy posted a very deep, as in so far down the well it might never get out, comment that we've all seen a few times because I kept asking him about it. It was exactly the kind of thing anyone should expect to be challenged for saying here. The thing about Sandy is that as soon as you do that he accuses you (me), of 'twisting [his] words', 'taking them out of context', bullying him and the like. This time, Janet pegged him like crazy but he still wouldn't answer her. You read the posts, I'm sure, although you don't mention them.

As long as someone's to prepared to preach here like Sandy is they should be prepared to justify and defend every last word they say. If not, don't say them. That's the standard for every one else here. He's not different no matter what kind of windbag crybaby he is.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:56:09 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: JH
Message:
JH,

Using JH is the best way to conserve my energy when dealing with you (2 strokes), as you are not worth more than necessary.

I stand by everything I have said to, about and regarding Pia, her cancer, her site, the Gita, et al.

You twisted THE MEANING of what I said to your own perverted interpretation, casting it all in a most ugly light that emits from YOU, not me, and proceeded to all caps bold tell me I should be ASHAMED.

Well, go fuck yourself. I'm not ashamed and you can think anything you want to about anybody you want to. You cross the line when you tell others how they should think. So kiss my ass and go polish your wingtips or something.

You are a closet Loser, one who loves to be puffed up and demean others because you really have low self-esteem....so who was it who beat YOU down in your formative years and bent you out of shape...parent? sibling? relative? teacher? false friend? girlfriend? I refurse to believe it was all Maharaji's fault.
Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:50:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: SP
Message:
'As for Pia and her cancer, she made outlive us all here, nobody knows....we all have a terminal condition called mortality.
And in the Gita it says that the true devotee laments for neither the living nor the dead.'

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:43:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Further inspiration from the Onion
Message:
Heroic Cancer Sufferer Inspires Others To Get Cancer

SAN DIEGO-- Diagnosed three months ago with terminal lymphoma, David Bradley, 46, has stood as such a stirring example of courage in the face of disease that he is inspiring others in his community to get cancer. 'Seeing David and the way he's bravely battled this thing, I couldn't help but follow his lead,' said neighbor Timothy Willis, injecting himself with a concentrated dose of the carcinogen trichloroethelene in an effort to contract the disease. 'David understands that every day is a precious gift. Pretty soon, I'm going to realize that, too.' Said Mandy Pitnick, 14, chain-smoking three unfiltered Camels: 'I want to be a symbol of hope just like David.'

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:00:30 (GMT)
From: SteveM
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: drop it , let go, it's only ego . nt
Message:
mellow yellow let go ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

waste's space this bickering you know dude. There's too much stuff getting lost below because of this crappy infighting.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 12:04:49 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: On Hindu Prudery, Gay Closets, accepting the urge
Message:
to get OUT. Of any closet.

Once upon a time, the idealistic, earnest, ashramically 'committed' devotee had to accept a lifestyle that featured the injunction to be totally celibate.

But 'boys will be boys.' Thank God.

When I finally 'outed' myself to myself, it was much easier to call into question the internalized prudishness and homophobia perpetuated by the prevailing cult-think, and then to question the very basis of that culture of control.

I remember special occasions when watching movies on video with other ashram premies (this an infrequent and almost taboo indulgence), at the approach of even a mildly sexy scene, some self-appointed guardian of our morals would rush up to the fast-forward button and safely scoot us past any offending glimpse of nakedness or physical affection on display.

I remember thinking, 'This is utterly foolish and unnecessary; we are not that delicate, for God's sake. What is wrong with this picture?'

I know we missed a lot of plot development, among other things!

Coming out of the closet had much to do with coming out of the obsessive control of the group mind-set. And this made the transition to ex-hood all the easier.

Of course, as part of the 'other side' of the split, we were mavericks already. But even there Hindu prudishness (itself an interesting topic) was still in effect, slowly combatted in personal victories over time.

It seems that in later years, in parallel with M's own urges, the DLM ashrams loosened their celibacy injunction as a hopeless cause, and eventually were abandoned along with the ashrams themselves, as he could hardly keep such a double standard going with a straight face, vis-a-vis his own lifestyle. (Not to mention the strictly business-risk reasons -- aging premies, higher overhead, etc. -- discussed elsewhere.) I wonder if this was part of it.

I also wonder: Does M still have ashrams, whether in India or elsewhere, with strict requirements for celibacy, surrendering all income, etc.?

At what point in their world did that whole concept become outmoded? Did mahatmas ever have free reign? (Not talking about Jagdeo.)

How did other gay brothers and sisters negotiate their transition to self-acceptance within a culture that pretty much undermined one's own personal identity?

Could someone become 'out' as gay, and still remain in good graces with M/EV? Was there any official or de facto 'policy'? Or was there still a double standard (Don't ask, don't tell)?

It's somewhat like having escaped a closet within a closet within a closet. But you know, that early prudishness may have saved my life, living in NYC during the uninformed early years of the AIDS epidemic.

Just curious about others' stories as they dealt with these issues.

Best wishes to all,
Carl

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:43:51 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: On Hindu Prudery, Gay Closets, accepting the urge
Message:
Hi Carl

Interesting post.

I have a gay side to my nature (predictably riddled with good ole fashioned Roman Catholic guilt and supression). I suppose strictly speaking I'd be classed as bi as most of the relationships I had with women were based on genuine affection AND I really enjoyed the sexual aspect too. I'm a sucker for a beautiful personality with a beautiful face:) If pressed though I guess I'd say I'm predominantly gay but not exclusively so. Yeah I know ...you 100% gays dont believe me :))

As for my times in ashrams.. I had crushes on both males and females but usually kept it all pretty much suppressed. Yeah, as a child there were times I considered priesthood and as a young adult I suppose I was a new age priest or alternative priest :) So I tried to live up to that as much as I could....the sex, drugs and rock&roll my lower nature enjoyed were obstacles on the path so to speak(barf). Tests for the sincerity of my soul.

I never really came across any overt homophobia though I do remember one guy leaving the ashram to live with another guy and some people (whilst not out and out malicious )did snicker about it.

On hindu prudery ....I remember having a big crush on an Indian premie girl and this was a big no no as far as the Gujerati community was concerned....so who did they get to tell me to lay off ? The one and only Jagdeo. I told him to mind his own business and keep out of my private life. Nothing came of my many crushes on Indians though.Their extended family/community is a force to be reckoned with. Nothing like the Western nuclear family set-up.

After the ashram, when I was living with a lady and our little baby daughter we for a time had a gay ex-ashram guy living in our apartment. He was completely 'out' and didn't experience any negativity from any of the community as far as I could discern.I remember admiring him (but not fancying him:) ) for his total honesty.I don't think he had gay contacts in the premie community ...I was forever answering the phone and passing on messages from older guys in the wider gay community.Don't know if he was a rent boy:)

After another relationship with a woman went sadly wrong ...I picked myself up from the brink of suicide and threw myself hell for leather into the gay scene. When I came out to my predominantly premie ( though many non-premies too ) friends I was genuinely surprised at the friendly nonchalence of the response. Sort of 'so what ? Your're still you....big deal'

These days I dont know where I am. Don't even know if I could actually live with anyone anymore. I really like living alone. Sometimes think it'd be cool to live with a younger guy but other times think I'd be nice to have more kids.. but maybe 50 is too old for that.Either way it doesn't really matter....i think Rawat has brainwashedme so much in one respect ie the imminence of death and the relative unimportance of anything else.

Now that's one bit of the brainwashing I want to come to terms with ..... it goes pretty deep though .....I'd rather enjoy the rest of my life without being fucked up by Catholicism, Rawatism or ANYism.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:02:41 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Thanks, Dermot, but don't give up on couples
Message:
Dermot,

I know what you mean about bisexuals being suspect in the gay community. I think the prevailing opinion is that men who say they are bisexual just don't want to admit they are gay. I think for women have a much easier time of it. What is the Kinsey Scale? I think I'm a 5, verging on 6.

But don't give up on relationships. I also lived alone for a long time and I have always enjoyed it. I still very much enjoy my own space, and I'm not the kind of person who gets lonely, so that isn't an issue. But I guess in the last 8 years or so I have become domesticated and I really treasure sharing everyday life with a partner, although it obviously has to be the right person. But I was skeptical at first, wondering if I could give up on my total independence.

One of the things the ashram did to me was make me crave privacy and avoid being in situations in which other people knew my every move, which is what the ashram was all about. After I got out of the ashram, I not only had nothing whatsoever to do with premies, I also wanted to be completely anonymous which I equated with freedom. I wanted to live alone, report to no one, and just figure out who the hell I was. It took awhile to work through that and be open and somewhat vulnerable to other people after that.

I've never wanted kids, so I lavish attention on my friends' kids and on my nieces and nephews. I'll stick with my Dalmatian.

Joe

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:40:29 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: No prob Joe
Message:
Im not a total cynic:)) if a permanent live-in relationship came along then no doubt I'd sail with it.....and I do have a regular casual partner(if that aint contradictory)so I'm not a complete sad bastard:)

Also friendships ensure I have the best of both worlds....still got my private space to enjoy.

Good to hear your views and your experience.

8 years is a long time ...the two of you must be doing something right.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:32:12 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Bisexuality - I fell for Monmot at Latvian Night
Message:
I've had more relationships with women than with men but eventually (after getting married and fathering a son) had to face the fact that I did not live in ancient Athens and our culture is not set up for bisexuality. So I chose boys because I love male companionship and don't live with women comfortably - too much of a monk or something.

Now, if you want to live in a monastery without all the sexual repression and religious mumbo-jumbo, you could come and live with us.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:50:13 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Bisexuality - I fell for Monmot at Latvian Night
Message:
Hi Pat

Living with ONE other being ....be that human, cat or dog would be one step for a man and a giant leap for mankind as far as I'm concerned.

Three humans and a bunch of animals ...well that's beyond my imagination :)))

The offer is greatly appreciated though :)

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:05:16 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Similar Experience
Message:
Carl,

It sounds like your experience was similar to mine. I think the ashram was a convenient way to avoid dealing with sexual orientation, but then that's true with many monastic orders, including the Catholic priesthood, which is estimated to be 40% gay.

Several of the ashrams where I lived in the USA were filled with closet cases, including me, although I felt so utterly confused for most of that time that I didn't know I was a closet case, until, like Way, I fell in love with a 'straight' brother, who, based on my experience, is probably bisexual, or maybe it was just the weird situation we lived in. It was extremely painful as you can imagine. Consequently, I completely avoided dealing with being gay until I was over 30.

I think most of the premie communities were pretty cool about homosexuality, with many of the premies having come out of the social left at least in the States, and the gay liberation movement kind of coincided with the early years of the Maharaji cult. But the organization was less open.

About Maharaji himself, I'm not sure. Both Dennis Murphy, who was Maharaji's cook, and Michael Dettmers, reported that Maharaji often told homophobic jokes. Dennis said M thought being gay was funny and couldn't understand it. I think he retained the Hindu, taboo, beliefs about it. Patrick McCracken, M's valet, is gay, so I'm not sure what that says.

But I agree that the ashrams were anti-sex, it didn't matter the orientation. I don't recall ever watching ANY movies in the ashram, except Maharaji-cult movies, like 'Satguru Has Come,' and 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' But certainly, no one talked about sex, except to say it was a terrible pitfall that might knock you off the path of devotion. Little did we know that Maharaji was fucking around with premie women during all that time, as were many of the Mahatmas, apparently. The same hypocrisy existed with alcohol and drugs.

I have no idea what M's views are on homosexuality now. I don't know about how it's addressed in Elan Vital, either, but I have no evidence of homophobia.

It seems that in later years, in parallel with M's own urges, the DLM ashrams loosened their celibacy injunction as a hopeless cause, and eventually were abandoned along with the ashrams themselves, as he could hardly keep such a double standard going with a straight face, vis-a-vis his own lifestyle.

That wasn't my experience at all. If anything, were I was there was a clamp down on even 'friendships' with the opposite sex. David Smith, for example, kept notes on any ashram premie seen to be too friendly with another, opposite sex, ashram premie, and transfers often occurred as a result. [Gay relationships I guess were considered out of the question.] And from what we have heard from former PAMs, Maharaji closed the ashrams due to mainly financial reasons. The ashram premies were getting older, had few skills, and were not the cash cow they had once been. Also, the ashrams made his organization appear to be the cult it really was, and as we know, he has tried, in a haphazard and weird fashion to try to portray what he is about as a harmless meditation/personal growth movement.

But regardless, after being told by Maharaji that the ashrams were for a lifetime, the way he closed them with no explanation, considering all we gave up in our lives to be there, is particularly reprehensible.

I lived in San Francisco towards the end of my involvement in the cult and there were gay premies, but we never really tried to propogate to the gay community, despite the fact that it is/was a huge percentage of the population of San Francisco. I have since heard from others that Maharaji gave direction not to propogate to the gay community. Pat C might tell you more about this.

I have thought the same thing about HIV as you from time to time. I spent the late 70s and early 80s in the ashram and I was, almost entirely, celibate. I have thought that maybe the ashram protected me from AIDS, but the truth is, if that were true, the ashrams should have remained open longer than they did.

The truth is they were closed in the midst of the worst part of the AID epidemic, and there are numerous examples of gay ashram premies, getting out of the ashram, without the skills or information to protect themselves, contracted HIV and died of AIDS, in a time when there were NO treatments, and not even very good information about how HIV was transmitted. I know of at least 2 from the San Francisco ashram who died in the 80s, and I know there are a lot more. I think you could argue that the ashrams and the way they were carelessly closed were as much a cause of their deaths, as they were a prevention in earlier years.

Joe

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:41:09 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Lost many premie friends
Message:
Many premie friends I knew in the ashram in South America surfaced in Miami after closures and were very active in gay sexual life. They seemed very naive, and also to be making up for lost time. I know a few who died whom I still mourn.

I believe Francisco Arce, who was the Chilean head honcho of Latin America also died of AIDS. Can anyone confirm?

love Katie Darling

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:42:27 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Similar Experience
Message:
Hi Joe,
Thanks for filling in the picture and sharing your experiences. You were right in the thick of it, for a long time. I can relate so well to the confusion and frustration. It was bad enough dealing with the baggage of our own cultural conditioning, but then to have yet another system of repression overlayed on that, yikes!

You're right, though, about the general attitudes of most premies, having been predominantly from the more tolerant leftist mindset.

Maybe there is just the unfortunate human tendency to project or internalize the homophobic attitude as coming from whatever authority figure. Certainly there is enough evidence of violence toward gays from large and vocal segments of society that would give a gay person good reason to remain mum.

And who is this David Smith character I keep hearing so much about? Beyond being an arrogant busy-body from hell, what are his other claims to fame, and how is it so many people were intimidated by such blatantly manifest assholishness?

(Remember, I've been out of the DLM loop since the 'big split' and never looked back into Prempal's and his lieutenant's shenanigans.)

Very saddened to hear of the gay brothers who have contracted the virus and passed away. At one time we all thought we'd live forever into increasing bliss. I know I always sort of kept a dream that I'd find some other premie guy with whom to form a special bond. Oh, there were a number of 'encounters' but nothing that could last under that ashramic magnifying glass. Didn't quite work out that way!

Thanks again for your substantial post.

Warm regards,
Carl

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:03:26 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: The Young Republican Period
Message:
Carl,

Yeah, a lot of it was internalized homophobia, I agree.

If you left the cult so early, you missed the particularly horrible period after 1976. First, there was this big, dark, negative, devotional period, in which Maharaji was clearly claiming to be the messiah, we were worthless shit, everyone who didn't live in the ashram was spaced out, and then, beginning around 1980, there was this push to make premies appear relatable, for the purpose of conning new people into thinking we weren't a cult. Believe me, it didn't work.

So, I think that might be what prompted Maharaji, through John Horton to Patrick and others, to not want to have flaming queens showing up at our bland and stupid 'introductory programs' at which all the premies were to dress in conservative, Reagan-era preppie clothes, be clean-cut, and get with the new conservatism of the 80s. People like PatC, and others in places like San Francisco, who wanted to remain individuals, were no longer welcome in the cult organization. You are very fortunate you missed all that.

So, the organization wasn't blatantly homophobic, just that it wasn't in keeping with the image that Maharaji was trying to propogate at the time. But then, I guess that IS homophobia, in a way.

Frankly, I'm so happy I never got into a relationship with a premie guy. Thank God. Give me sane, non-cult-people anytime. But my partner Kevin got to meet a bunch of ex-premies last weekend, and he rather liked them.

And I agree with Patrick. The AIDS epidemic has been one big horrible nightmare. So many talented and wonderful people lost in their prime. Things are a lot better now, but the recent stats are chilling about a new epidemic. God, I hope not.

BTW, for anyone who is interested, want an experience that makes you appreciate and be grateful about life? Be a gay man, and after waiting SEVEN FUCKING DAYS to get the results of an HIV test, go into some room with a perfect stranger, and be told you are NEGATIVE. That really makes you appreciate the preciousness of life.

Joe

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:17:44 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The recent stats are scary .....................OT
Message:
The young kids coming to SF now have never seen beautiful men in their prime covered in Kaposi's sarcoma or gasping for one more breath with pneumocystis or blinded or demented.

We watched ''Before Night Falls'' on Sunday. Now that was the movie which should have won the Oscar not that fake Hollywood history. I highly recommend it to anyone who has been suckered by the revisionism re Fidel Castro.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:23:24 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: The recent stats are scary .....................OT
Message:
If you look at the stats, it's the black and Latino communities that are getting hit. Why is that always the case?

I think the safe sex ads are getting a lot better. That 'use-a-condom-every-time' nonsense lost all credibility, and so lost all effectiveness. The new 'risk management' campaign is a whole lot better.

But with a new generation, you have to educate all over again.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:16:51 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: African-Americans and Latinos
Message:
I read an artical by a black gay guy who blames the Christian homophobia in the African-American community for the disproportionate figures.

The same could also apply to the Latinos. Young blacks and latinos cannot come out to their families for fear of being thrown out of the house. They keep it a secret and no one talks about it.

He also pointed out that lack of self-esteem and internalized negrophobia make minority kids less respectful of themselves.

But I am particualarly pissed at the Christian BS especially in Africa where the RCs proselytize against condoms.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:37:17 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: RC and Condoms
Message:
Hell, Archibishop O'Connor campaigned against condoms in New York City High Schools. It seems they should rather die than possibily use birth control.

I think with a lot of Latino guys, they don't consider themselves 'gay' even if they have gay sex. It's just sex, whether it's with men or women. So, they don't identify with the safe sex warnings as much.

I agree about the African American community. My partner of 6 years was black, and he did have a harder time in the black community than I did in the white one, plus, the gay community is predominantely white, upper-middle class and male. Harder to relate to for blacks.

I also think those communities get shittier health care, and the outreach hasn't been as good. You often need resources to get yourself educated on this stuff.

But I also think a lot of the safe sex campaigns were ridiculous, and actually gave a lot of false information about how HIV is really spread, and that led to a lot of people ignoring them. They have to get the credibility back.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:11:44 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: ads for anti-virals with robust mountaineers etc
Message:
The pharmaceutical industry is making it look like it's glamorous to have HIV. Anything to make a buck. I didn't agree with everything that the original ACTUP did but where has that anger and indignation gone? The anti-virals are NOT a cure but sure make lots of money. We need a new ACTUP to make sure the profits get spent on a vaccine or a cure.

As for the RCs - the less said the better. In fact I better drop this subject before I get too in your face faggy/lesbian avenger for the rest of the exes.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:49:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yeah, but that's not my main gripe
Message:
I think the way the official health departments and even the gay community provided 'safe-sex' information really damaged their credibility. They were so afraid to allow individuals to weigh the risks based on complete information, that they just had the 'use a condom everytime' bullshit. People began to realize that was bogus, that it didn't reflect the actual lives people lived, and hence there was this whole underground, unofficial network of information that conflicted with the official campaign.

That's why I think the new campaign about 'How do you know what you know?' and re-categorizing certain sex practices as 'safe' has started to give people more realistic information, and not treat them like idiots.

It IS a problem trying to reach the kids, though, especially in the minority community. I've done HIV counseling, and I've been amazed at how misinformed a lot of young people are. It's pretty clear the schools aren't teaching them a damn thing.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:17:09 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: On Hindu Prudery, Gay Closets, accepting the urge
Message:
Carl,

I never encountered homophobia in Maharaji's cult. I was always comfortable with the premie consciousness in regard to homosexuality, at least in my community.

I wasn't comfortable with my own gayness and the ashram for me was in part a way to attempt asexuality and escape homosexuality. (It didn't work, I fell madly in love with a straight brother).

But all the premies seemed more open and accepting back in the 70's than society in general. All the gay people in my community were completely accepted.

My view of Maharaji was that he accepted gay people as people. I don't think I knew about his love of gay jokes, but he seems to have a very crude sense of humor in general.

I remember when Joe Anctil was sick in the hospital and the Divine Times reported that Maharaji visited him and gave him a card saying 'It could have been worse, you could have been pregnant.' I figured Maharaji was pretty cool with the issue.

The question about celibacy in the India ashrams is interesting. I would like to know the answer, too. I would also like to know about Satpal's ashrams. On his website, there are many photos of men and women premies in what appear to be monk clothing, but I'm not sure of the whole cultural significance of their attire.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:54:32 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: On Hindu Prudery, Gay Closets, etc.
Message:
I also found that most of the general premie population were pretty laid back and cool, at least in the early years.

However, living in the ashram and dealing with a couple of severely censorious 'servants of the lord' was another thing altogether.

There was quite an undercurrent of fear of physicality regardless of orientation, which may have been the particular hang-ups of only a few, but it did affect/infect the wider group.

And there was definitely a studied avoidance of these issues. The prevailing vibe was 'we need to be so high-minded to escape the slightest taint of lustful corruption.'

I imagine a practical objective of this denial was to also avoid expensive baby-making predicaments.

Now, there was probably a fair component of U.S. puritanism and social hypocrisy mixed in with the Hindu spiritual/cultural discomfort with physical expression. It is interesting that M seems to have rebelled against that as well. ('Where those blond wimmin at?')

About monks clothing in those photos: I believe there are many traditional ashrams on the Satpal side -- many -- and they are probably little different from what you may have experienced in the early 70s or before if you were in India at that time. He has, by all accounts, maintained the 'traditional path'. That's how I read it.

The saffron / pinkish robes are for mahatmas and bais, who are enjoined to follow a number of strict rules of behavioral conduct, in addition to propogating the K.

The name Joe Anctil is vaguely familiar, as a PAM perhaps? but I can't summon any other recollection. Been away for so long.

Way, where was your community? U.S., England, Australia?

Regards,
C.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 16:15:37 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: On Hindu Prudery, Gay Closets, etc.
Message:
Hi Carl,

Thanks for the info on the saffron robes. That kind of purity is attractive, but an illusion. We're naughty little things and it's better to admit it.

I was lucky to have lived in a tight-knit and laid-back community in the Midwest United States. We had very little problem with each other, for the most part, besides the usual personality clashes.

Joe Anctil was the 'master of ceremonies' at Maharaji's programs in the U.S. in the late 70's. I'm sure he wasn't given the title 'master of ceremonies' so he must have been called something else. He was older than most premies, a good public speaker, and known to be gay.

Joe W. had a much wider experience in American communities than I did and I believe he did encounter some homophobia. Maybe he will respond here.

I am still falling in love with all the wrong people. Currently I am in love with one of Pat's husbands, but Pat won't share.

What about you? What community/country? Have you posted here much? You're not that British theatre person that posted a few months back, are you?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:34:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Way
Subject: To Carl, Way and Joe
Message:
Which one of my husbands are you in love with, Way? I thought you had a husband already.

But more seriously, thanks for your post, Carl. I can't really add much more than what Joe and Way already have said because I never lived in a western ashram (which BTW were a Rawatian experiment and not at all traditional in the Hindu sense - in India the ashram is where the guru lives and allows some of his mahatmas to stay.)

Most Indian premies are householders and only come to the ashram to do service. Most of the mahatmas lived in the villages before he fired them all in 99. There are monasteries, bramachariyasanghas, but they are either Buddhist or not affiliated with Sant Mat guruism and are for sannyasis and saddhus and such. The only other ashrams (in our sense of the word) are also for cults with western followers and seem to be more like communes.

The first three years after I got K I was torn between wanting to move into an ashram in order to totally surrender and my ''evil'' attachment to my second husband at the time. I was even accepted to move into the ashram and copped out at the last minute when I imagined my husband's warm alabaster thighs. I felt like a piece of worthless shit in M's eyes and always would burst into tears in darshan because I was such a filthy sinning fag. But the community premies mostly accepted me.

Then I moved back to South Africa where most of the premies are Gujeratis. In Durban the premie center was known as the ashram because it housed the holy slippers that M had worn when he first came there (and which were kissed once a year in mock darshan - yes I got blissed out from that too.) I was made CC and moved into the ashram which also housed two other white men and a white woman who had the most dysfunctional horrible triangulated history which stank up the atmosphere until I (the holy fucking virgin, not) requested that the woman be moved to Joburg all-girls' ashram.

I lived there for two years and that nearly drove me nuts and was one of the reasons that I left and came to the States. The unmarried Indian community brothers all used to vie to be invited to spend the weekend at the ashram. The other two guys would not let the Indian guys sleep in their rooms so I had a bunch in mine. They would take turns sleeping with me in my bed.

I nearly went crazy because they were very affectionate and loved to play spoons. Needless to say I did not sleep much. Of course that was the story of my life as a premie - suppressed sexuality which I now realize probably was often a lost opportunity. It probably was MY prudery that prevented me from following my urges.

When I came to SF I made up my mind that I was no longer going to be squashed and I put an ad in a fag paper to meet gay premies. Within a year there were 36 of us. Most of them could not stand the DLM culture and had kept themselves to themselves up till then. That was when I met Chuck. We had potluck satsangs in the Haight which ended up in orgies (which Chuck and I declined to join in - being the marrying kind.)

John Horton came to SF, purportedly sent by M to tell me that I should not keep the gay premies separate from the rest of the community. I told him that that was not in my control and that the fags preferred fag satsang to the ashram satsang. He also told me that M disapproved of the promiscuous gay lifestyle but not of monogamous gay relationships. I have said before that I find the man inscrutable and I never really did understand the whole reason for his interview with me. He seemed more interested in learning about handballing than anything else. But I was ignorant at the time and could not enlighten him. (I know now, John, if you're still interested.)

As Joe said, many of the gay brothers who were thrown out on the streets when the ashrams closed were not prepared mentally for the gay scene in SF and completely fell victim to the candy-store syndrome and got AIDS and died. Of the 36 Haight fags only 4 (other than Chuck and I) are still alive. Two are sick and two (who have been in a relationship ever since the ashrams closed) are the local white table-cloth straightening church ladies. Most died between 81 and 87 and it was so devastating that Chuck and I became hermits for many years afterwards.

To this day we cannot easily talk about those days. That's why I never enter into discussions about AIDS conspiracies and such on the forum. It is too theoretical and, in my eyes, almost inappropriately voyeuristic (or maybe I should use the word clinical) when I suffered the very real and often horrible deaths of my closest friends. Yep, I rambled right off subject as usual. (And, Gerry, if you read this, now you know why I don't talk about AIDS theories. The facts are horrible enough. Now if you talk about a cure, I'll listen.)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:49:27 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: To Pat: I'm not gonna tell (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:33:51 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Ah, go on. Pretty please (nt)
Message:
l
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:37:24 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yes, we lost many friends
Message:
My husband and I moved from the Bay Area and all we kept hearing was about people dying. When I was in the ashram and after I first moved out I used to go to the gay pot lucks that didn't turn into orgies! One of my dear friends and roomates (who was gay, now dead) was a DJ on KUSF along with being and artist and working a job, and he brought his boombox and a lot of tapes to potlucks.

So usually those turned into dance parties instead of orgies. See, we girls were a good influence. I remember when Mark Sabonovich (don't tell me he's dead too) asked me how I could leave Maharji's shelter (i.e. move out of the ashram). He frequented the Cauldron (a wild bath house) and couldn't figure out why I'd want to leave an ashram!

Pat, if you're counting, our dear friend (Bob) Victor Joseph is still alive and well on the East Coast (as a practicing EV rebel premie) and I just saw him 2 weeks ago. So up your survival numbers from 4 to 5!

love, f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:42:46 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Yes, we lost many friends but not Bob/Victor
Message:
I forgot about him because he moved away. Mark is dead. There are also two other MANIAC gays still alive in SF who were not around in the Haight days. ML has finally stopped writing to me to be grateful.

OOps I forgot Billy McCarthy (Marianne's friend) who is still alive and has a nice husband.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:08:18 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Damn, I've thought of Mark S from time to time
Message:
He was so tall, and fun, and full of life. And even though he did all sorts of wild and crazy things, he was like many of the Haight gays -- so full of an innocence that could not be touched by all the debauchery. There was a childlike fun to it all before the plague.

I've often mourned for Matthew as well (WHAT a sense of humor, god), and Peter M. I could keep going, so I'm going to stop now. But it doesn't hurt to remember them. They were a part of my life, and by remembering their energy, still are.

You know of course that Joey is still around and a MANIAC -- you have counted him haven't you? He tried to find me before the program in 1992 but didn't stay in contact once he found out I couldn't wait for the goober to leave the stage. I have to at least credit Michael L. with not cutting off connections just because I wasn't into it anymore.

love, f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:19:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Yes, I counted Joey among the survivors
Message:
But I lost touch with him many years ago.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:27:58 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: A wonderful, funny and sobering post Pat
Message:
Really, it is so great that you shared so much of your experience in that post.

It is a wild ride through so many conflicting forces just to get to be middle aged. And your post reminded me again of the many who never made it. As in a war, so many men, boys really, their beautiful energies, bodies, talents and dreams cut down, having flared briefly only to disappear, with their traces left in our memories.

Well now, I don't want to get morbid. But your recollections of your many vanished friends reminded me of mine. And I lament along with you.

As to what was funny, was your randy predicament with the affectionate Indian premies in bed with you. (What a delightful vision!) Forgive my ignorance, but what is 'playing spoons'? Is it the curling up together back to front? Or something a bit more, what, 'intentional'?

I'm just glad that there was resolution and thriving toward wholeness that was able to take place for you and others close to you regardless of the cult, or homophobia in the culture, and against the odds during those painful years.

Be well always,
Carl

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:33:44 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Thank god I put Chuck before the cult
Message:
My 19 years with him have healed me and given me the love that I was always searching for and Andy has been with us for 8 years and has added even more happiness and contenment to our lives.

Yep, spoons is curling up together nestled like spoons in a drawer.

I'm so glad you started this thread. Now we are out of the closet but the current PWKs are in another closet with their guru-worship, ''the love that dare not speak it's name.''

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:47:54 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey my 3D Email and cyberspace pals on this thread
Message:
I'm humbled by your honesty and bravery
lots of love
Moldyxxx
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:55:13 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Thanks, Moldy
Message:
This thread has made me two hours late for work AND I still owe you an email.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:59:35 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yer Welcome Pat... dinna worry boot Email
Message:
Send one before Sat and we''ll arrange phone chat if you've time xxx
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:01:35 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Will do...
Message:
Just having my last fag and cup of tea before going to the salt mines.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:04:08 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat - got any spare fags -- think I'm gonna run
Message:
out and no shops open in the wild NE!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:57:02 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I am not surprised you couldnt sleep...
Message:
If those Indian boys were playing the spoons all night.. I tried a few times but I always seemed to get my fingers in the way... its the old chopstick trouble flaring up again.

Handball ? Is that something I need to know about ?

I am not avoiding the serious issue in your post Pat.. I just dont know what to say.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:08:12 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Not THOSE kinds of spoons, Loaf
Message:
I mean the kind where I had to lie facing away from them with a woody while they curled up against me and we can't talk about the other thing on a family forum.

The one I was completely in love with was called Hans and looked a lot like the teenage Pimple Rawat when he was still relatively cute only he had a beautiful svelte brown body with skin as soft as silk. Oh....sigh. He is now in charge of propagation and is still not married 24 years later. Well, no use crying over spilt milk.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:27:55 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: British theatre persons,Prudery, Gay Closets, etc.
Message:
I think the british theatre Person (BTP) might have been me... I too was a closeted gay boy who hid from his own sexuality and became spiritual, uptight and prudish as do many in denial.

I was around M and Patrick quite a bit during two events.. one in la Tierra Argentina in 1993 and backstage at the Rejoice in Birmingham UK in 89 (I think it was 89)

I thought they were very cute together.. M would tease Patrick a lot, usually about marrying him off, but it was definitely affectionate and to call it homophobic would be a bit precious.

I have heard M tell hundreds of blue jokes.. I remember the 'melts in your mouth not in your hand' joke about the gay boy in Hell... but I rather liked that he would tease and bring such issues into the conciousness.. he definitely was not uptight on issues of sex.. .. far from it.

As to whether Premie life re-inforced my closet... yes I think it did.. even for a Knowledge-Lite kid (1982) like myself.. but I was already running from my gayness before I found premies... so I brought a lot of baggage and issues into the DLM closet with me... and actually it was seeing how accepting M was with Patrick that helped me to finally admit that I had a willy and a bum hole.

As re safron clothed mahatmas.. the last time I was in the New Delhi Ashram M sacked them all, and then re-instated them again after 24 hours, during which time many of them they camped outside the gates and begged for his mercy. Kinky or what !

there were some cute younger ones....

Sampurnanand told me why his kurta was very slightly off white pink - because in Sri M's time , he used to handle all the business arrangements, not befitting a mahatma, so he wore whites with a hint of pink...nice.

I dont know about homophobia in India. I camped there. I saw Indian men holding hands and being sweet with each other. Its nice to see.. especially when you are a confused and uptight white kid whos master likes camp people (with money).

Love to all

Loaf

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:33:20 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: You mean you're GAY, Oafie old chum...?
Message:
I would never have guessed. Hmm, bur I think you better explain that bit about 'camped outside his gates' ;)
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:14:07 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: i thought it was a great but subtle line (nt)
Message:
I had to write something here anyway.. which makes the whole NT business into a bit of a sham.

I feel cheated of my right to remain silent. If I type pro M propoganda here.. who is ever going to check ? I bet Jim never reads this bit. In fact.. this is probably a good way to pass secret messages.

I wonder if Glen bothers reading NT posts. I bet he doesnt. In which case this is just the place to spread secret coded information direct from ex-premie headquarters.

Now that is a moot point. I feel ever so cheated that this so called 'organisation' isnt more organised. I want a career as a bone fide ex. I want to BE somebody... and yet the further I get from the stage, the less important I seem to be... until I find myself guarding the bins with Pat C.

I bet Pat reads this post... he is a concientious forum participant... he is probably synchronised. I, on the other hand... am not. But there is no one to officially synchronise me any more ! We need an ex manual.. with approved terms/slander and attitude so that all this debating malarky is obsolete. NT threads will rule the forum one day.. just like they do on Pias site... nt minds and nt imaginations.

Ho hum.

If you made it this far - you must be a good friend. .... or else sad.

Both probably.

Thanks for listening... love to all

Oafie
x

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:45:57 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: You psychic or sumfin, Loaf?
Message:
You said: ''I bet Pat reads this post.''

I don't always read NTs but something about your subject line made me think there was a secret encoded message to Nigel hidden in here. Mostly I was hoping that you put NT by mistake and would explain your cryptic comment.

Actually I click on NTs in order to highlight them so that, when I scroll down, the new posts jump out. Lately I have only been reading one quarter of the posts. Not as much time on my hands nowadays.

So from now on if I post an NT to you you will know that it really is a secret post FYEO (for your eyes only.) Just kidding.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 19:47:33 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Oh, Loaf, the BTP
Message:
glad you're back, and thanks for clarifying that for me.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:47:06 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Possibly Earlier Period.
Message:
The period I was referring to appears to be before you were involved. It would have been circa 1980 or so. About Mahraji's homophobia at that period, all I can tell you is what Dennis and Michael said, and note that they were in positions to know.

Clearly, if Maharaji was still blantanly homophobic, I doubt Patrick would be around him.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:40:25 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Those bloody BTPs drove me nuts, Loaf
Message:
When I first went to live in UK I couldn't always tell who was gay and made a pass at many a nellie BTP only to be told that they weren't ''that way.'' And then the nasty little butch truck driver types would come onto me and blow my mind and...
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:09:53 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Prudery, Gayness, etc.
Message:
Thank you, Way, for your interaction here.

I've not posted a great deal, although I did jump into the fray several months ago after a couple of years of occasional lurking while at work.

I find I'm really enjoying this Forum: the exchanges and information, and dramas and tempests-in-a-tea-cup, as well as the primary 'cult expose' focus and the heady philosophical discussions and gut-wrenching revelations. The people posting here are some mighty thoughful, articulate and discerning people, for the most part. It is quite a community with an incredible outreach the magnitude of which we may never know.

I am afraid I'm not the British theatre person you mentioned (but am now intrigued about), although I knew many Brits during my stint in Blue Aquarius. Right now I live in NJ, after having spent most of my premie 'career' in CA and NY.

I have to watch how much time I spend here, though. It is often very compelling, and yet one has one's work to do! I don't have people lining up to goldplate my bathroom fixtures, for one thing.

Warm regards,
C.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 06:05:39 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Christ, they're all a bunch of queers, here....Jim
Message:
you too? I feel like I've stumbled on a gay pride parade . . . Carl, Dermot, Pat, Chuck, Way, Loaf, Joe . . . who's left? . . howabout that suchabanana? . .jeez maybe I'm just brainwashed into thinking I'm a hetero . . . hmmm, FV - I get it now.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:44:30 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: conversion therapy for straight men
Message:
Gary,

In case you've been hankering to join our club, there is a Dr. Da Vinci on Collins Ave. in Miami Beach whose practice is devoted to those heterosexual men who want to become gay. I know it sounds improbable, but it's worth a try. Good luck.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:30:22 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Survival of the species? Well, I guess someone's
Message:
gotta do it. I'm going to watch my back here anyway.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:43:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Serves you right for even READING this thread
Message:
Gary,

What on earth would make you even read this stuff? There are plenty of perfectly fine heterosexual threads for people like you and me (can't say about the big banana). But like they say, Gar, the internet is a very dangerous place.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:09:56 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: It's Okay Gary
Message:
We don't think there is anything wrong with being heterosexual. We understand that it isn't a choice. You can't help it; you were probably born that way. You shouldn't be discriminated against for that, and you have every right to exist and not be killed or bashed. Being hetero is okay, as long as you don't flaunt it in public, try to convert our children, or teach about it in the public schools.

I heard that there are now many heterosexual characters on television sitcoms, and they are being elected to the highest political positions in the country. Why, I heard the other day that a heterosexual just got elected Mayor of Los Angeles. A lot has changed in the past 30 years, but I know we still have a long way to go.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:41:37 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe - try to convert our children??????NT
Message:
asdf
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:54:44 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: Yes....
Message:
I was kidding. The wacko right wing, especially the 'Christian' nuts like Pat Roberston and Jerry Falwell, and even the radio therapist, Dr. Laura Schlesinger, say that gay people 'recruit' children to become gay. I know this is insane, but people actually say this.

What I want to know is how come nobody ever tried to recruit me? How come I never got a turn?

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:16:09 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Speaking Gay Pride Parades . . .
Message:
There's one coming up in NYC real soon. See you there?!?

Maybe we should have our own big float, we could fly in from around the world, have a big kiss-kiss reunion! Ooo-gah!!

And, take note: M/EV will no doubt target their next big propogation push at the Gay Community. That's right, you just watch.

Think of it, it only makes sense: We have SO MUCH disposable income, a disproportionate amount of the creative talent, so much available disposable income, a higher than average educated population, and also staggering amounts of disposable income. Lots of money, too.

Juicy pickin's for your greedier-than-average guru, yes?

It's a world-wide network also, we've infiltrated every level of society, in all areas of goverment, industry and the arts, and we actually control the levers of power in this world. We are everywhere, everywhere, all around you all the time.

This is the only logical next step in his quest for world domination.

But to really win us over he may need to learn to dance a little better . . . that wobble dance thing, I don't know . . .

C.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:05:51 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Speaking Gay Pride Parades . . .
Message:
Right. Maharaji would also have to dress better, and do SOMETHING about that HAIR!!! Oh my God, can you say 'degreasing?'
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 07:21:40 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Jimina isn't queer. Most crossdressers're straight
Message:
Anth is our resident token straight queer although some think that he is too camp to be het.

Now you see, Gary, heterosexuality is just indoctrination and basically another cult and....

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:13:13 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Prudery, Gayness, etc.
Message:
As someone who's never had any inclination to walk down Piccadilly with a Poppy & a Lily , this is a fascinating thread.

Seems that lots of the bro's were shirtlifters , I wouldn't know , but I have to admit that I share Rawat's sense of humour on this topic , the mechanical arrangements of gaydom do seem pretty bizarre to the uninclined .

I was once propositioned by a friend I had never realised was gay & turned him down ;as far as I was concerned our relationship was the same as before , but maybe not on his part .
Girls who I propositioned & who turned me down ...it was never the same from my point of view.

Now a case can be made for celibacy , though not by me ,& it's obvious that promiscuity causes disease , & that homosexual promiscuity is at the root of aids , atleast in America .

Such are the pitfalls of hedonism.

Rawat is a hedonist who implies he is a renunciate (ie above it all like the lotus) what a hypocrite .

He didn't have a clue what he was doing & still doesn't.

He's a showman.

Pat Dorrity.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 12:08:36 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Bin - promiscuity doesn't CAUSE disease
Message:
It may spread disease, but then so does all manner of human actuvity... diseases are just around...
One of those things
And unfortunately we get 'em sometimes
IT'S NO ONES FAULT

And 'hedonism' is a funny word.... I don't really know what it means when I thnk about it...
Who doesn't want happy, pleasurable experiences... who doesn't gravitate towards those activities that make them feel good
Love Moldy

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 00:28:17 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Drop that in the Bin, Bin.
Message:
it's obvious that promiscuity causes disease , & that homosexual promiscuity is at the root of aids , atleast in America .

God, Bin, get a clue. HIV is a virus. Homosexuals did not create it, even in America. BTW, what is the 'root of AIDs' in the UK?

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:46:20 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I know it's a virus Joe.
Message:

Forgive my clumsy phrasing : what I should've said was that it's transmission in the West was mainly by way of promiscuous homosexual Americans , from which it spread out . I knew someone who died of it at a time when it was virtually unknown in England outside the medical profession & who certainly contracted it in S.F.

In Africa by contrast , it was & is spread by promiscuous heteros .

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:38:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: You still got it wrong, Pat you are misinformed
Message:
One doesn't need to be promiscuous to get HIV, Bin. It only takes one exposure. What you are saying is nuts.

Plus, 'promiscuity' (whatever that is) doesn't spread HIV either. Unsafe sex, and sharing needles, and gettin infected with contaminated blood, are the main points of transmission. That's unrelated to promiscuity. As a point of fact, it is more likely for a person who has a series of monogamous relationships to get infected with HIV than those who have multiple sex partners, gay or straight.

The reason HIV has been largely among gay men in the West is because HIV entered that way, and the reason it's mostly a disease among heterosexuals in Africa is because it entered the population THAT way. The orientation is completely irrelevent.

And what possible proof do you have for your assertion that people in the UK got AIDS from people in San Francisco, other than your completely anecdotal assertion regarding one person?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 11:13:24 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Not for the faint hearted
Message:
Been poking about the net, found some interesting info for those few that like to stick their noses into m affairs, still waiting for the up-times:

The site maharaji.org is running Netscape-Enterprise/3.6 on Solaris.

The site elanvital.org is running Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) mod_jk PHP/4.0.1pl2 mod_perl/1.24 FrontPage/4.0.4.3 AuthMySQL/2.20 mod_ssl/2.6.4 OpenSSL/0.9.5a on FreeBSD.

The site www.ellwoodassoc.com is running Microsoft-IIS/4.0 on NT4/Windows 98.(bad bad boys, carefull with the head bug)

http://it-aint-so.org/home.htm

The site it-aint-so.org is running Zeus/3.3 on FreeBSD.

The site www.enjoyinglife.org is running Lotus-Domino/5.0.6 on NT4/Windows 98.

The site www.elanvital.ca is running Microsoft-IIS/4.0 on NT4/Windows 98.(better have that patch on)

(NOTE Relation to ellwoodsassoc.com. They must be a front for EV)

The site www.appreciation.org is running Apache/1.3.14 on FreeBSD

The site www.evnewsletter.org is running Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) mod_jk PHP/4.0.1pl2 mod_perl/1.24 FrontPage/4.0.4.3 AuthMySQL/2.20 mod_ssl/2.6.4 OpenSSL/0.9.5a on FreeBSD.(same server as EV,duh)


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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:41:17 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Not for the faint hearted - cuppa java...
Message:
redirect http://ad.doubleclick.net/click;2950362;0-0;0;5804224;1-468|60;0|0|0;;%3fhttp://game.treeloot.com/cgi-bin/welcomeuser.cgi?s=81
info http://www.treeloot.com/play/help/popups/bananabucks_shock.html

Peace and lentils

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 05:20:48 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: WANTED: Swami with a bannana
Message:
Hey you con merchant, you sent me walk about with all these pop up windows, Had to my shut internet access and close my browser to get out. GGrrrrrrrrrrr.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:17:11 (GMT)
From: sucha bananabucks_shock
Email: None
To: Salam,me ol' beetle buddy
Subject: see,that's FV java code.click java messages,at end
Message:
Caught exception painting tlshock[panel0,0,0,468x60,layout=java.awt.FlowLayout]:
java.lang.NullPointerException
at tlshock.render(tlshock.java:193)
at tlshock.paint(tlshock.java:107)
at com.apple.mrj.internal.awt.VComponentPeer.paint(VComponentPeer.java)
at com.apple.mrj.internal.awt.VComponentPeer$UpdatePeerEvent.dispatch(VComponentPeer.java)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(EventDispatchThread.java)
imgpath http://ad.doubleclick.net/616666/
redirect http://ad.doubleclick.net/click;2950362;0-0;0;5804224;1-468|60;0|0|0;;%3fhttp://game.treeloot.com/cgi-bin/welcomeuser.cgi?s=81
info http://www.treeloot.com/play/help/popups/bananabucks_shock.html

http://www.treeloot.com/play/help/popups/bananabucks_shock.html

-- just a divine lila or cosmic connection, or somethin'. haha
didn't know it would do something silly - sorry - but just that's the FV java expresso machine.

Peace and lentils,

your lil' swami mate


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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:26:52 (GMT)
From: SuchaBanana
Email: None
To: sucha bananabucks_shock
Subject: NOT for the faint-hearted: play banana bucks! (ot
Message:
http://www.treeloot.com/play/help/popups/bananabucks_shock.html

this is the end of the java message source code on this FV page. If you cut and paste the above address and go to it, you end up at the banana bucks game!

The source code for this FV page contains:


Write your Message in the box below: (Max: 20000)

http://www.treeloot.com/play/help/popups/bananabucks_shock.html

http://www.treeloot.com/play/help/popups/bananabucks_shock.html

weird!

Peace and lentils

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 09:26:52 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Real History of the Combat review
Message:
The real history of the Combat review
by J.-M. Kahn

if anybody can translate this, we'll have it on the English version of the introduction to the Combat review.

I wonder why EV's PR need to give me such 'power' like to be able to 'influence' the French media !!

The history is quite simple, and here is the facts:

Beaucoup de rumeurs courent sur les origines de cette publication. Il m'appartient donc de donner ma version des faits.

J'ai reçu le 24 octobre 2000 dans ma boîte aux lettres un email de Gilles Alfonsi. Je n'avais jamais entendu parler de Gilles auparavant, ni de la revue pour laquelle il travaille (j'en connaissais le nom, sans plus de précision). Je ne connaissais pas son appartenance politique, ni le sujet sur lequel il travaillait et dont il me faisait part dans cet email dont voici l'essentiel:

Bonjour,
Je m'intéresse de près à EV, son histoire, ses dirigeants actuels, sa tentative de se 'normaliser' en association lambda, ses connexions économiques etc... J'ai peu à peu rassemblé bcp d'infos, de documents.

Tout cela va donner lieu, d'ici quelques mois, à une publication. Je vous en reparlerai.

Je ne sais pas encore s'il y aura place, dans cette publication pour certains aspects, plus sulfureux que ceux présentés jusqu'à aujourd'hui dans le site des ex-premies, qui m'intéressent aussi .... (j'omets cette partie qui mentionne des faits et personnes précis que je ne souhaite pas évoquer ici).

Comprenez-vous de quoi je parle ?

Quoi qu'il en soit, je suis intéressé par une discussion par email (le mien : ********@voila.fr) puis pour vous rencontrer, si vous en êtes d'accord.

A bientôt donc, si vous le voulez.

Gilles.

Nous avons eu des échanges d'emails pendant quelques semaines. J'ai été très prudent dans les informations que je lui donnais, ne connaissant pas Gilles, ni ses motivations, ni la teneur de la publication qu'il préparait.

En faisant quelques recherches sur Internet, j'ai découvert qu'il travaillait pour la revue Combat plutôt axée sur les problèmes liés au Sida et à l'usage de drogue.

Je n'étais pas opposé à l'idée de participer à une publication, mais je souhaitais quelque chose d'intelligent, qui ne diabolise ni EV ni les premies ou leur gourou, qui contienne des informations pertinentes, et pas de calomnie ni les poncifs rencontrés habituellement dans les magazines à sensation. Je ne voulais pas non plus que mon nom soit mêlé à une polémique avec laquelle je n'étais pas d'accord. Après avoir lu quelques exemplaires du magazine Combat, j'ai été rassuré sur la qualité du contenu de ses publications.

Nous avons fini par faire connaissance le vendredi 1er décembre 2000 dans un café. Il était accompagné d'une personne dont j'avais un vague souvenir pour l'avoir croisé plusieurs fois dans les réunions d'EV. Il s'agissait bien d'un ancien premie, qui s'était éloigné de M et d'EV depuis quelques mois comme il me l'a appris. J'étais donc un peu plus en confiance, et nous avons décidé d'aller dîner ensemble dans un petit restaurant libanais du quartier, afin de faire plus ample connaissance.

Nous avons donc causé de choses et d'autres sur le sujet qui nous intéressait. Je ne savais alors rien de très précis sur le contenu de ce futur numéro spécial, sauf que Gilles et certains de ses amis avaient déjà fait une enquête assez approfondie, qu'ils avaient déjà beaucoup d'informations, qu'ils étaient en contact avec d'autres anciens disciples, et qu'ils avaient pas mal de documents et d'informations originales, dont certains que j'ai découvert avec étonnement.

Nous avons continué notre correspondance par email, au cours de laquelle Gilles m'a demandé divers détails et précisions à propos des articles sur lesquels ils travaillaient. Dans le courant du mois de décembre, il m'a demandé de répondre à une série de questions, afin de publier une interview sur mon engagement passé.

A cette époque, il était plus ou moins prévu que le magazine soit publié dans le courant du mois de février 2001. Pour diverses raisons techniques, la publication a été retardée jusqu'à la fin du mois d'avril.

Ce n'est que le 19 avril que j'ai pu jeter un oeil sur une partie du projet, dans lequel il manquait encore pas mal d'articles qui étaient encore en cours de rédaction. J'ai fait quelques suggestions et proposé quelques corrections. Certains détails n'étaient pas conformes à ce que je savais d'EV, et il était important que ces données soient corrigées afin de ne pas nuire à la qualité et à la crédibilité de l'ensemble de la publication.

Puis j'ai participé à la relecture générale de la maquette, puis du bon à tirer dans les 15 jours précédant la parution.

Il se trouve que le magazine est sorti début juin 2001, 15 jours avant la venue de M en France. L'équipe de Combat a donc fait son travail pour faire en sorte que la parution de ce numéro soit remarquée. Rappelons qu'à cette date on était en plein procès de l'OTS, et que les assemblées travaillaient sur le projet de loi 'Picard' sur les sectes. Le sujet faisait régulièrement la Une de l'actualité, et les médias n'avaient pas grand chose à se mettre sous la dent le week-end où Mr Rawat a eu la bonne idée de venir à Versailles ... Ce qui a assuré la couverture médiatique que l'on sait, sans qu'il ait été nécessaire d'influencer les médias pour cela !

J'espère ne pas avoir oublié de détail important. S'il y en a qui me reviennent à l'esprit, je les rajouterai par la suite.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 10:10:51 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: ...which translates as....
Message:
(sorry, J-M, I couldn't resist...;)
>>>

A lot of rumors run on the origins of this publication. It belongs me therefore to give my version of facts. I received the 24 October 2000 in my can to the letters an email Gilles Alfonsi. I never had not heard about Gilles previously, either magazine for which one it works (I some knew the name, without more of precision). I did not know his political appartenance, or the subject on which one it worked and of which it did me leaves in this email of which here the essential: Hello, I am interested closely to EV, his history, its current leaders, his attempt of itself 'to normalize' in association lambda, its economical connections etc... I have little by little mustered bcp d'infos, of documents. All that will give place, of here some months, to a publication. I you in reparlerai. I do not know again if it will have about it place, in this publication for certain aspects, more sulfurate than those presented to today in the site of the ex-ex-premies, that interest me also.... (I omit this part that mentions facts and precise persons that I do not wish to evoke here). You understand of what I speak? Although it in be, I am interested by a discussion by email (mine: ********@voila.fr) then to meet you, if you some are in agreement. To soon therefore, if you want it. Gilles. We had exchanges d'emails during some weeks. I was very prudent in informations that I gave to him, not knowing Gilles, or its motivations, or the content of the publication that it prepared. While doing some researches on Internet, I discovered that it worked for the magazine Fights rather axée on the secured problems to the Sida and to the usage drug. I was not opposed to the idea to participate in a publication, but I wished something intelligent, that not diabolise either EV or the premies or their gourou, that contain pertinent informations, and not any calomnie or the met poncifs habitually in the magazines to sensation. I did not want either than my name is mixed to a polémique with which one I be not agreed. After reading some copies of the magazine Fights, I was reassured on the quality of the container of its publications. We ended up to do on fridays 1st knowledge December 2000 in a coffee. It was accompanied of a person of which I had a wave to remember for the to have crossed several times in the meetings d'EV. It acted himself well of a former premie, that had moved away itself from M and of d'EV since some months as it learned it for me. I was therefore a little more in confidence, and we decided to be going to dine together in a small restaurant libanais of the neighborhood, in order to do ampler knowledge. We have therefore due to things and other on the subject that interested us. I did not know then nothing of very precise on the container of this future special number, except that Gilles and certain of its friends already had investigated enough deepened, that they had already a lot of informations, that they were in contact with other former disciples, and that they had not poorly documents and of original informations, of which certain that I discovered with astonishment. We continued our correspondence by email, to the class of which ones Gilles me required various details and precisions about the items on which these they worked. In the current of the month of December, it wondered me to reply to a series of questions, in order to publish an interview on my past engagement. To this era, it was more or less foreseen than the magazine is published in the current of the month of February 2001. For various technical reasons, the publication was delayed even for the purpose of the month of April. This is only the 19 April that I was able to throw an eye on a part of the project, in which one it lacked again not poorly items that were again in classes compilation. I did some suggestions and proposed some corrections. Certain details were not in accordance with what I knew d'EV, and it was important that these data are corrected in order to not harm the quality and to the crédibilité of the body of the publication. Then I participated in the general relecture of the maquette, then form to pull in the 15 days preceding the parution. It is located that the magazine went out beginning June 2001, 15 days before the coming M in France. The team Fight has therefore does his work to do some go out that the parution of this number is noticed. Recall that to this date one was squarely processes of the l'OTS, and that the assemblies worked on the project law 'Picard' on the sectes. The subject did uniformly it A current event, and the médias did not have big thing to put itself under the tooth the week-end where Mr Rawat had the good idea to come to Versailles... What assured the cover médiatique that one knows, without that it was necessary to influence the médias for that! I hope to not have forgotten important detail. If it there in has that return me to the spirit, I the rajouterai by the continuation.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 09:26:42 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: ...which translates as....in real english--
Message:
the forum seems frozen so I'm sending you my translation of what you posted on it, telling how you came to be involved in the Combat issue. I apologize for places in it where I had to modify your literal wording in order to convey your meaning better in everyday english. i dont think I appreciably altered your meaning from what you shared. I am keeping a copy to myself, so that I can go back and try to post this again, when the site is working the usual way. dont know why it's not taking posts at the moment.

A lot of rumors are circulating with regards to the origins of this publication. It appears pertinent that I give my version of the facts, now:

I received an email in my mailbox from Gilles Alfonsi on the 24th of October, 2000. I had never expected to speak to Gilles in person, or to see him repeatedly because of his work. I vaguely knew the name, but not precisely who he was. I did not know his political stance, nor the subject on which he worked, which he made me a party to, in this email, which said, in essence, the following:

'Greetings,
I am closely interested in Elan Vital- its history, its actual directions, its attempt to 'normalize' itself with the Lambda association ( a gay activist collective), its economic connections, etc...
I have, little by little, assembled a lot of information, and documentation.
All of this is going to be given, several months from now, to a magazine. I will be contacting you about this in the future.
I don't know if there will be a place in this publication for certain aspects, more damning than those presented right now on the Ex-premie website, which interests me also..(I am omitting this part which mentions facts and people whose names I don't want to make public here).
Do you understand what I am talking about?
At any rate, I am interested in discussing this in email ( mine is *******@voila.fr) and later in meeting you, if that's alright with you.
Till next time, at your convenience--
Gilles.'

We had some exchanging of emails for several weeks. I was very careful with the information that I gave him, not knowing Gilles, nor his motivations, or the tenor of the sort of publication he was preparing.
In doing some research on the internet, I discovered that he worked for the Combat review, which centers on the problems caused by AIDS and drug usage.
I was not opposed to the idea of partiipating in the publication, but I was hoping for something intelligent, that didn't demonize Elan VItal, or the premies or their Guru; which contained pertinent information, and not calumny and scandal and the sort of articles one encounters in the sensationalist magazines. I did not want my name to be mixed up with a polemic I did not agree with.
After having read several samples from Combat, I was reassured by the quality and the contents of their publication.
We finally met each other on friday, the 1st of December, 2000, in a café. He was accompanied by a person I dimly recalled having crossed paths with, a couple of times, at reunions of Elan Vital.
He was a longtime premie who was deeply questioning, who had distanced himself from Maharaji and Elan Vital some months ago, as he explained to me.
I felt a little bit more confident, and we all decided to go eat dinner together at a little Lebanese restaurant in the Quarter, after we had made acquaintences well enough.
We talked about one thing and another with regards to the subject we were all interested in. I did not know anything very exact at that time, as to what the contents of this future special issue would be, save that Gilles and certain of his friends had already done a deep and profound investigation, that they already had a tremendous amount of information, that they were in contact with other longtime disciples,
and that they had no dearth of documents and original information, certain of which I discovered with astonishment.
We continued our correspondence by email, in the course of which Gilles asked me for different details and specifics, pertaining to the articles on which he was working. Over the month of December, he asked me to respond to a series of questions, after doing an interview on my past involvement.
Durng that time frame, it was more or less projected that the magazine would be published as the February 2001 issue. For various technical reasons, the publishing was delayed until the end of April.
It was not until the 19th of April that I got to glance over a part of the project, at which time it had no lack of articles waiting to be edited. I made several suggestions and proposed several corrections. Certain details didn't match what I knew of Elan Vital, and it was important that these be corrected, lest they detract from the quality and the credibility of the overall publication.
Then I participated in a general briefing in preparation to face the press, which was held during the 15 days preceding the issue's hitting the stands. We found out the magazine was coming out in June of 2001, 15 days before Maharaji was coming to France.
The staff of Combat worked to make sure the issue would be noticed. We recalled that on that date, the OTS would be in full session, the Assemblies working on the Picard Law project about cults.
The subject was regularly making page One news, and the media had no choice but to be on point, the weekend Mr.Rawat had the bright idea to come to Versailles...
You know this assured media coverage, without us having to influence or pursuade the media to do it!

I hope I haven't left out any important details.
If there's anything else about it that comes back to me after saying this, I'll be sure to follow up and add it here, immediately.

Jean Michel

translation by
janet schwartz

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 13:34:33 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Please Janet, lots of mistakes !!!!!!
Message:
You're fired !!!

Some paragraphs are totally wrong !!! Check your email !!!!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:51:42 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The gist is there
Message:
The main idea comes across, but in the most preposterous and amusing English. Basically, I think JM is trying to set the record straight and correct the inaccuracies perpetrated by William Strait of 'It Ain't so.' Mr. Strait claims that ex-premies have always tried to get the press to defame Maharaji, but that it hasn't worked (which is true), but he claims that Jean Michel finally succeeded by contacting the magazine Combat. JM points out the it was he who was contacted by Combat, and it was entirely Combat's idea to do their piece about Maharaji's cult, in keeping with the general concern of the government and the public of France towards fraudulent cults.

One funny/cosmic aspect to this whole episode is how the magazine article came out just in time for one of Maharaji's rare visits to France. The article was initially set for a February release, but it was delayed a couple times and ended up on the shelves just as Elan Vital was announcing Maharaji's visit. How much grace is that!?!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:45:38 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Grace grace and more grace !!!
Message:
I guess it's still with me, that's the point.

I doubt they have some left at Pia's ....

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 13:28:24 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Not that bad .... anybody to refproof ?(nt)
Message:
xx
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 13:49:37 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Janet, where are you?.........nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 08:47:26 (GMT)
From: nagual rain
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: pia
Message:
what's all this about pia ? i never read a bloody post
of hers, where can i go and get her ???
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 09:26:47 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: nagual rain
Subject: pia
Message:
http://it-aint-so.org

If you'd actually read the threads, this would have been clear.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:04:49 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: oh groan I knew this would happen
Message:
I have been too out of it, physically, to care about this Pia person. Was not interested enough to go looking through all the pia threads to find the website url. But now I have seen it.
It's funny !!!!! I love the about the critics part. I did not know I was a former student of Maharaji's. Last I was around I believe I was unlabeled, not a devotee anymore, but not a student yet.
OK Pia me dear sister now I'm hooked and will read more when my eyes stop watering. No Pia it's not from crying, sorry bout that.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:17:32 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: if its so great, why do they all play it down?
Message:
You read their low-key, casual quotes and you can feel them straining themselves to make m&k out to be soooo ordinary and Absolutely Not A Cult. Take Josie Winter - SHE don't have a circle of cult friends around her, oh no, SHE just lives in the country with her kids, dogs, sheep and banjo not worshipping her Master. But ain't she the same Josie Winter who with hubby Mark put together the ELK vomitorium? The same one who coupla years ago sent out emails asking for financial support for same? Maybe there's two of 'em?
Be fun to compare those testimonials with their contributions to ELK Expressions. Gee, I'd LOVE to see what Ivette and Janice would write for Pia's WANIAC (We Are Not In A Cult) page!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:42:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: We all have a crush on Ivette and Janice
Message:
All that new age sweet. Who could resist?

Vomitorium? They asked for money for THAT??? wow.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 16:11:27 (GMT)
From: bazza
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Cough up!
Message:
Yep they asked us to cough up for the vomitorium (groan!)

That was the second time, first time was about 3 years before that. Don't know how much they raised but they sure didnt spend it wisely. That site has some of the suckiest software on the net, half the time the frames don't load, and when you do something like 'View By Author' on the expressions page, you only get A thru M, because the script limits how many appear, AND their arranged by First-names, so you get like 50 Ivette's and 65 Janice's, who seem intent on out-puking each other.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 16:27:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bazza
Subject: I AM!
Message:
And you don't want details, trust me on this.

Well thanks Bazza for the first giggle fit of the day, the A thru M stuff was priceless.

It just hit me that site must have been up in '97 when I was still a premie, no? Which is sooooo odd because I never looked for it I found EPO instead and the rest is history.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:29:40 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Morning sickness?
Message:
OK I won't ask:)

Don't remember exactly when ELK first came out, I know I was still very much a MANIAC (Maharaji Admirer Not In A Cult)because I forked out a chunk of change for it. 97 is about in the ballpark. Interesting to note that itaintso is the first non-EV site they have promoted and linked too - assuming it IS a non-EV site;)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:45:18 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: MANIAC :) (NT)
Message:
ZZ
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 11:28:13 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: pia
Message:
I wish she'd stop changing the layout of her page. now we have Flash the dash, sheesh, not my best choice, but I guess that's what you get from EV.

Wad u mean it's not EV?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 03:13:36 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Everyone incl. Premies
Subject: Aint-so postings:Testimony/Alibi depositions
Message:
Really, look closer. Notice that everyone's eloquently written thoughts on the Value of Knowledge and what it means to them do not mention how beautiful their experience of knowledge is and has-been. Nope! Everyone says

I AM NOT IN A CULT
I NEVER HEARD MAHARAJI ASK FOR MONEY (don't mention EV asking)
I NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED MAHARAJI TO BE THE LORD
MAHARAJI NEVER TOLD ME WHAT TO DO OR HOW TO THINK
MAHARAJI ALWAYS ENCOURAGE ME TO THINK FOR MYSELF

Now I don't mean to be TOO critical but why would everyone be inspired to start their Testimony off with the same opening objection to being in a cult then itemize everything Maharaji NEVER said.

Thoughts on this?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:55:43 (GMT)
From: bazza
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: This needs changing
Message:
Her copyright notice on the front page:

All rights reserved © Copyright 2001 It-aint-so.org

Well It-aint-so.org is just a registered domain name, and as such cannot hold copyrights, as it is not an entity in itself.

What she should have put is Copyright...Pia Grunbaum or even Copyright..Pia Ji which is what is listed as being the organisation by register.com

But then, what kind of an organisation is 'Pia Ji'? Is it registered in Denmark? What is its status and constitution, directors, members, tax status etc etc? Can you just invent an organisation in your head when you register a website?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 13:37:00 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: 'It ain't so': a knee-jerk title of denial
Message:
Deborah,

What ain't so? The opening starts with some fade aways and the last word to fade away is 'clarity'....then 'it ain't so' shows up. What ain't so? Clarity? Anything 'bad' that anybody says...what ain't so? The title begs the question of any thinking premie who reads it, 'what are they talking about...what ain't so?' If I never knew anything negative about Maharaji or EV and I saw Pia's site, it would stimulate me to find out why so much effort is being made to deny something, from the very title.

That's like Ford and Firestone making a site entitled 'We don't make cars and tires that cause rollovers and kill people' and then have testimonials of families who have had great times with their vehicles. And they don't post the e-mails from families who have had injuries and tragedies resulting from the same product.

I looked all over her site my entry or for any kind of presence of any postings from folks who diagree or question her position and could find none. Have you seen any yet?

I did not make a copy of mine and later realized it would not copy over to my e-mail archive.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:09:18 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: 'It ain't so': a knee-jerk title of denial
Message:
Yup-you gotta hand it to them--they are in such a sub-cultural reality that they seriously underestimate Premies and Aspirants.

I admit that I am suffering from suppressed stupidity because of my volunteered vulnerability years ago. But I knew very intelligent, very inspiring, very outrageously independent people and we would of discussed these allegations if we had known. Premies that I know/knew that 'may' be still with M and his Circus are going to hedge those comments. I know they will Sandy.

My speculation:

I believe M is going to trash EV, the Premies (most of them)and create a new image. I mean, he's going to TRY, er, umm, EV will try or yea but he's going to trash them, OH I DON't Know...
This is all a little sickening to me. Good news, I'm getting better. Dry heaves of detoxing are settling done to an uncomfortable knot in my stomach.

So, how are you doing these days?--Deborah

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:48:42 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: It ain't so:real dumb premphlegm:ironic+comical(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 07:02:01 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Aint-so postings:Testimony/Alibi depositions
Message:
I find this site very predictable .It is plaily a purely reactionary response. It has no leverage unless it bounces off people proporting in some way to support M and K.
It is self congratulatory and incredibly minimalist in it's assessments. Dave's point way down below about attack is very accurate. Fundamentally, whether you know it or not the vaste majority of critics here subscribe to the Ted Patrick unsophisticated anti cult approach which sanctions both physical and mental violence against percieved cult victims.

Here's the rub. Many of you were in a cult of your own creation.I have never been locked in that corner. Maybe if you were observant enough to deduce what is happening NOW you may well be able to let go of the 70's and 80's and perhaps enjoy the rest of your somewhat limited existence (anyone aiming at another 50?)

{So sure here's your chance Nigel/Scott?Anth?JIM et al et al. Dive in up to your gills. And when you look up, realising this is do-do and that bastard in the speedboat just spayed us with an 8 foot bow wave , look up and smile. I'm the guy at the wheel smiling at you.............}

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:22:47 (GMT)
From: Deborha
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: CW--You are really off-based
Message:
I think it would be only fair of you to retrace the postings I have left here starting with my response to M.Dettmers...My OBSERVATION is only available to me now.

The question is not whether I am going to be ABLE to enjoy the rest of my life ... I can assure you, I gave my trust to him only to find out he's a MAJOR charlatan. I have not been in contact w/ the BigHead, premies, EV, I don't have videos, and other cult paraphenilia to throw away, I haven't seen his mug, his attitude or his insiduous behaviour. However, because the beliefs that everyone is claiming did occur, I find myself havving no choice then to purge deep down in my being. I don't blame you for not having that experience Why do you blame me for having it. An observation, dear CW, that You, personally, should NEVER allow yourself to acknowledge. You apparently have not allowed yourself to OBSERVE what ex-premies have. I am one step ahead of you Mr. CW -- please damper your condescending advice, it's misplaced.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:55:30 (GMT)
From: bazza
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: So cat you gonna contribute to pia's site?
Message:
Or have you already;)

Think she'll publish you under the name catweasel, i mean she's an old pal isnt she?

bazza who knows you're not david:)

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:03:27 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: bazza
Subject: Brad Pitt? The Saint?
Message:
Tell you what Bazza. I might give it a fly. See if you can pick me.....
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 02:11:03 (GMT)
From: bazza
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: I'm with you mate
Message:
Been thinking of doing the same thing.
Be good for a laugh.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:48:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Can't you see the difference, Cat?
Message:
Cat,

You're able to come here -- even after all the content-less, vitriolic, cowardly, ugly, anonymous garbage you've dumped here for literally years -- and argue your points, whatever they may be. You make no sense whatsoever but at least you're able to argue freely here. Sure, that's just us laying that ol' Ted Patrick brainwashing voodoo on you, but still it's something. Now, if you had the courage to actually talk about any of your stupid accusations, instead of, at best, dropping a single-shot of articulate prose like this one, every once in a blue moon, then we'd have what's called a 'discussion' -- another classic Ted Patrick maneouvre.

But yes, Cat, we're self-congratulatory. Never felt that way myself until I took the Patrick course. Likewise, minimalist -- but that's enough about that!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:45:54 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: WHICH sites are reactionary here?
Message:
Hi Cat -
When I first read these sentences, I thought you were talking about Pia's site! You have to admit that your description fits that site well. Even the TITLE of the site is a reaction.

I find this site very predictable. It is plaily a purely reactionary response. It has noleverage unless it bounces off people proporting in some way to support M and K. It is self congratulatory and incredibly minimalist in it's assessments.

Well, as you well know, I disagree with you about ex-premie.org.
If you read my letter to Pia below, you can hear (again) my feelings about ex-premie.org, ex-premie, premies, and Maharaji. I know you have dismissed this in the past as 'just PR', but it is really how I feel, and is quite different from your generalization that Fundamentally, whether you know it or not the vast majority of critics here subscribe to the Ted Patrick unsophisticated anti cult approach which sanctions both physical and mental violence against percieved cult victims.

ELK, maharaji.org, elanvital.org, and Pia's site all came into existence after ex-premie.org, and I view most of the content on THESE sites as being 'reactionary' to ex-premie.org. I'm sure we could argue this 'who reacted first' point endlessly - sort of a chicken and egg argument. You are correct that if M and K didn't exist, ex-premie.org wouldn't either. But there seems to have been a great need for someone to put up a site on which ex-premies could tell their stories and communicate - otherwise this site wouldn't still be here, nor would it have attracted any new people in the four years since it's been on line.

Furthermore, I think if ANY of the pro-Maharaji sites could be honest about ex-premie.org's existence (provide a link, maybe?), then the dialogue could be more honest as well. But ALL the pro-Maharaji sites talk about the ex-premies in generalized terms without addressing any of our concerns honestly, and without seeming to admit that we are human beings, AND without admitting that there are people who are unhappy following Maharaji. THIS provokes a reaction from me.

Sorry, Cat, but this site ain't gonna go away as long as there are people out there that benefit from it. That's just the way it is.

Sincerely,
Katie


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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 10:35:52 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: CW
Subject: 'Many of you were in a cult of your own creation'
Message:
Oh yeah? Like we twisted his poor his little arm to proclaim stuff like this:

'And what do you want for Christmas?...Nobody thinks about why Jesus came into this world. Nobody thinks of that: what's really true of Knowledge, why Jesus came as Guru Maharaj Ji for those devotees, revealed Knowledge to them, gave them that experience. Nobody remembers that. Because Christ came. His purpose, was for sat chit and anand. What he came in this world for, what he revealed in this world, was this Knowledge, that love, that devotion...For a devotee it's always Merry Christmas because there is never a time in this world when Guru Maharaj Ji isn't here.'

But I mean the devotee's prayer to Guru Maharaj Ji always is, 'Oh Guru Maharaj Ji, YOU ARE ALL-POWERFUL, you are all merciful. Save me. Give me that help that I need in my life.'

(thanks, Susan)

Yet it was WE who made him believe he was the unique, indispensible, all-powerful living incarnation - and not vice-versa...?

Get real, for once, Cat. Did you never pray a devotee's prayer for to M to SAVE YOU? (and if not, why not? He's telling you to do precisely that, here). At the very least you must be bright enough to understand the potential harm such instructions can have, and have had on people who take them literally.

You are still in a cult of M's creation, even if you can't see it. As for the rest of us, we were there, we've paid our dues and earned the right to say whatever the fuck we like about him, and challenge nonsensical assertions, like that above.

If you consider mere critical words to be 'mental violence', then M must have turned you into very frail flower indeed.


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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 10:31:44 (GMT)
From: Farti ji
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Ok CW ,You win.I see the light and I am going back
Message:
to Maharaj ji.I now see the light and I have been in my mind on this evil Forum.I yearn for darshan once more and all theat money I have made since exing?I am going to give it all back to the feet of the lord.I want to be under his spell once more.I want to bathe in his light.I want to be taken back and deprogrammed from this ex premie life.I am sick of feeling good.I miss all the feelings of guilt and tension in my life.Do you think he will take me back Cw?
Oh christ what a terrible nightmare!
I just dreamt I was wanting to return to the cult.
Thank christ I woke up from that.LOL.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:00:19 (GMT)
From: cw
Email: None
To: Farti ji
Subject: Ok CW ,You win.I see the light and I am going back
Message:
no he wont take you back
youre too fucked!
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:43:25 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: cw
Subject: Ok CW so m will only accept people who
Message:
are o.k anyway, is that right? He's NOT here to help the confused, weary and weak - in which case arti will have to be completely re-written for his current incarnation. That's very interesting, it seems you are attracted to the feeling of being in a 'saved' minority, rejoicing over your status as better, less 'fucked' than anyone else. Glad that makes you feel good, but a crutch is a crutch is a crutch, no matter what it is.

Carry on feeling superior and denying it at the same time, it's a psychological defence mechanism we all have to stop us cracking up. What a wonderful thing the mind is, eh?

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 04:12:32 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Ok CW so I will only accept people who
Message:
As the Cranberries sang 'In your head - In your head'
I dont think any such thing.It's the absurdity of the postion taken by you and Mr Farti that prompt an ironic reply - something seemingly lost on the vaste majority of North Americans.
The fact that I feel less fucked than some has a simple basis that has nothing to do with M or K. Reality says I am less fucked than probably 90% of the world's population. I never go hungry. I have magnificent shelter. I have toys . I am happy in my relationships. My future income will protect this. So what?

My simple observation is that you must take personal responsibility for your life. There is no brief , no contract for anyone else to do so.
Maharaji is my guide, my master in one supremely important aspect of my non-fucked life Mr/Ms C - He keeps my focus and my attention on what to me does count; my own personal inner experience. If you want something else -keep looking!

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 09:25:03 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: You really are a silly billy, Pussy Priscilla Pie
Message:
You said: ''He keeps my focus and my attention on what to me does count; my own personal inner experience.''

I say: ''Balls!. You keep your focus on your own personal inner experience. He keeps your focus on him.''

That's fine if that's what you want. I understand the attraction of bhakti. But it can also be debilitating and ultimately useless unless you're counting on your imagination ''to remember the Master when you die.''

I prefer to be self-motivated not Master-motivated ......... or is that Masterbated? Whatever turns you on, baby.

Pat, the old fogey armchair yogi.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:03:27 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You really have a big willy, Pussy Priscilla Pie
Message:
Pat I'm not worried about dying! I'm about living! Every god-dam second!
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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 00:58:11 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Thanks, Pussy, I hope it wasn't too big and
Message:
that it didn't hurt too much.

Yes, I know. It was an unfair dig a la the preachier type premies reminding us of death all the time.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 04:47:47 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Big?
Message:
'We is never going to fit that on the album cover'!!Cheech Marin to Blind Melon Chittlin in refence to....
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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 05:15:04 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: CW
Subject: I'll show you mine if you show me yours
Message:
So, you don't like debating. Me neither. Used to be good at it in school. But my excuse is that I am a stubborn, arrogant and opinionated contrarian. Used to be called Mr Know it all in school too. I prefer to let people orate and hear their own fallacies than point them out.

But if you won't debate with Messrs Jim and Nigel what else does that leave you to talk about? You never tell us anything about yourself. I'm here more for the personalities than the politics and I'm itching to find out more about you. So what do you do besides betting on the horses, foot-kissing and spending all your time on FV?

Actually I take back the foot-kissing stuff. That's disrepectful and none of my business. Whatever happens between consenting adults in private is fine with me as long as they don't harm each other.

Have you ever run into a Brit in Australia called John Doyle? He was my second ex-husband. Nice guy and now his nude pics are all over the net.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 07:59:29 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Victoria, you're bitter and ought to be spayed.
Message:
Thanks for the nice long post, Victoria dahling of the buffed bod and the dick of death. Did you get bored with your spamming? (CW: ''Objection!'' FA and me simultaneously and respectively: ''Sustained.'' ''Withdrawn.'') Nicely written posts like this one of yours get far more attention and respect than spam.

Catweasel said: ''And when you look up, realising this is do-do and that bastard in the speedboat just spayed (sick) us with an 8 foot bow wave , look up and smile. I'm the guy at the wheel smiling at you.............}''

Ooooh, baby, I'm soooo impressed. I'm soooo envious of that speedboat. It's so shagedelic, baby. I wish you'd cut the one-up-man-ship crap. It doesn't impress me. Your sense of humor does however - and so does your persistence. Always loved a guy who could keep it up all night. As long as the speedboat isn't a substitute for a nice warm penis.

You said: ''I find this site very predictable .It is plaily a purely reactionary response.''

I agree. The same applies to you. It's called ''taking up opposing entrenched positions.'' Isn't it fun?

I also agree with your assessment (and Sir Dave's) regarding attacking premies. I wish you would agree with my position and that is that you should not attack exes. I sometimes think that you're really an ex plant. (Do I have to use an emotikon for you?) Only an ex could invent a premie persona as weird and bitter as yours. Just as only an ex could invent Pauline Premie.

Anyway I agree with most of your post. The forum can seem like a boring rehash most of the time but that's partly because newbies arrive all the time and we have to fill them in on progress to date. But I have recently had the pleasure to meet 23 of the regular posters here and they are as beautiful and exciting in real life as their writings here often are. You must admit that there are some very interesting characters here.

If this were such a boring predictable place you would not spend time here. You know that. Most of these guys are the ones who got the ball rolling in the first place with their idealism and enthusiasm. The reason why you pride yourself on being a Lone Ranger, maverick, renegade premie is because you know as well as I do that the current PWKs are either crushed and frightened or brain dead and - sorry to be so uncharitable - booooring! Not all, but most.

The problem is that I can't help liking you try as might as I might to be politically correct and hate your guts. Every now and then I realize that you would be a lot of fun to have a busman's holiday with. I know we'd have an absolutely fabulous time if you keep your claws sheathed and relax and let your hair down and I promise not to steal your thunder.

I just know that you're a snookie in real life but cyber anonymity just brings out the beast in you. Rowrrr!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 07:15:30 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Thanks Cat
Message:
I appreciate this post because it clearly shows the conceited attitude of many premies.

I was tainted with the same odious air of superiority when in the cult.

The speedboat analogy was brilliant and pure Maha brainwashing. That's what he had us all believe ,- we were so special-we would make it across the metaphorical ocean while the other suckers drowned. We were the only ones who really knew how to enjoy life , because without devotion to a fat, ugly ,greedy,multi millionaire, shortassed, megolomaniacal,aloof,fraudulant, lying gooroo- none of us stand a chance right ?

Cheers anonycat

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 07:31:10 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Steve M
Subject: Thanks Cat
Message:
You missed it completely Steve. But why should I expect anything else- you have been conditioned to respond that way.
The last paragraph was a tongue in cheek view of how YOU see ME.
Fucking eerie eh? Right on the button.
The truth is I dont see any of you being much different to me -except you may well be somewhat hung-up on an issue or two -therapy is good.....just let it go....
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:57:27 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Right Cat
Message:
There is very little difference between us. The difference is that we've been where you are but you've not been where we are.

Yes therapy has helped many people to free themselves from being hung up on Mr Rawat although as you may know us Brits are kinda reluctant to go to therapy. We prefer forum 5 to talk it out.

Cheers
Steve.

Ever enjoyed rollerskating? Did you know me in UK ?

You can e mail me if you want mulley@oninet.pt

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 08:06:34 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Victoria, you bitch, you ruined my post to you
Message:
by saying that your last paragraph was tongue in cheek. You completely ruined my best dig at you.

You said: ''The truth is I dont see any of you being much different to me -except you may well be somewhat hung-up on an issue or two...''

Amen and ditto, Pussy, But aren't you hung up too? No hang ups? How about that little bhakti juju chain around your neck being yanked around by someone you probably are embarassed by in front of your mates or do you tell them that you kissed a Hindu businessman's feet? Smooch.

Yeah, yeah, I know you love the guy.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 05:20:02 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: some time ago...
Message:
...Miragey used to talk about what knowledge was not and I never quite understood that I think knowledge is so vague and noone really knows what it is that it has to be described as what is not I guess.

Mercedes (feeling sad no one has responded to my post below, yeah I feel left out)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:31:28 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mercedes
Subject: Lonely post syndrome
Message:
Hi Mercedes. Hey, don't worry about doing a thread where nobody responds. OK, it can leave you feeling a bit boring and unloved, but you should never take it personally. I think all of us have posted threads on occasion which have sunk all the way to the inactive without so much as a murmur...

The thing is, you should remember all the posts of others you read and enjoy without actually replying to. The fact you didn't reply doesn't mean you didn't appreciate the content. Same thing with your own posts.

Nige (who likes Mercedes' posts ;)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:24:46 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Mercedes, Nigel - agree completely!
Message:
I've often thought of starting a thread asking people if they feel that no one responds to their posts! Sometimes I take a long time writing something, and get very frustrated when it sinks without a answer. When this happens several times in a row...well, I also feel ignored and left out. I think we all feel this way at times.

Just wanted to say that you're not alone, Mercedes - I think it's just a side effect of the forum dynamic.

Take care, both of you,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 17:13:55 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Mercedes, the PWKs NEVER answer any of my posts
Message:
I always read your posts, Mercedes, but I have stopped making comments on EVERY post as I used to because that's a full time job.

But Catweasel never responds to me and CD usually ignores me and Sandy used to ignore me and Mel Bourne and Deputy Dog ignore me and Deradune has pronounced that she will not read my posts. Now that hurts. ;(

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:16:03 (GMT)
From: Victoria Bitter (AKA: CW)
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Mercedes, the PWKs NEVER answer any of my posts
Message:
Oh you lying old bitch Patricia! Of course I answer your piffiling posts. No more tragedy now! Or the beast with two backs gloriously ridden by that Goddess of feral fornication -
VICTORIA BITTER !!! - shall consume you in her passionate stupor hold. (we call it the choker?)
And Pat - I've said earlier ;years ago actually(ask Katie)that I dont have a major problem with any-one here . Except for those awful dominating goat type males -Jim and Nigel Ugggh .. So UNFUNNY. So fucking Rightuous!!!!
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:53:07 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Victoria Bitter (AKA: CW)
Subject: Pussy Pie, about that choker
Message:
Don't you mean dog collar?

Do you really mean you would let me get my grubby little hands all over than buffed tanned bod of yours? When's the next Qantas flight?

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:31:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Victoria Bitter (AKA: CW)
Subject: Oh that hurt .... I thought we were friends
Message:
God, Cat, I thought we really understood each other. You, nasty, cowardly cult member. Me, honest, hard-working voice of reason. I really, honestly thought we had something. Oh well....
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 02:49:50 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh that hurt .... I thought we were friends
Message:
I can see you are working on it Mr Jim ; and I think it is both noble and praiseworthy. But I have to say the only way I know you fix up those billy-goats and their ill-manners is to ruin their stud prospects!. No more smells and gentle as a lamb.
Counselling is one thing little fella .... but are you up for it? The BIG chop? I could get you into the Calvary choir?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:08:46 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Love you Pat and Katie (n/t)
Message:
feeling better
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:00:18 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: TKU Nigel... (n/t)
Message:
thank you
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:41:46 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mercedes
Subject: One thing worse than Loneley Post Syndrome...
Message:
Is 'Kiss of Death' or 'Dead Thread' Syndrome.

This is where you spend a few hours on the forum, adding thoughtful, well-considered comments to a whole load of posts, dish out praise, ask provocative questions, crack jokes... but then nobody replies to any of them. Every thread or sub-thread you've added to freezes, turns purple and dies immediately.

Either it means you've summed up every thing that needs saying on a subject, or you must be boring as fuck (not that the latter is necessarily boring).

But talk about unwanted...;)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:16:00 (GMT)
From: Moldy warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: As Dr. Phil(of Oprah fame - and fortune-) says...
Message:
1 - The number-one fear among all people is rejection.

2 - The number one need among all people is acceptance.

Moldy Warp who can't resist the odd guru occasionally
(PS In the extremely unlikely event of you reading this forum Dr. Phil... I would like a small cut of your profits ... as please note this is not the first time I have promoted your message free of charge)
xxxxx

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:33:01 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Moldy warp
Subject: Hey, Dr so-called Phil...
Message:
If (1) is true, isn't (2) redundant?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 22:21:05 (GMT)
From: Moldy warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Talking to myself again
Subject: Please note Dr. Phil - here is my E mail address
Message:
All remunerations gratefully accepted
Yours sincerely
MW who spent too long propagating one goooroos message to do it again for free
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:21:18 (GMT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: some time ago...
Message:
Just do it.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:14:02 (GMT)
From: catspiss
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: some time ago...
Message:
Dear Mercedes
I feel sorry that you feel left out and noone is responding to your post. What was that about knowledge being vague? its not!
obviously you never experienced anything for yourlelf so go figure
love and kisses
catssssssssssspisssssses
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:38:58 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: cats piss and weasel
Subject: Piss and weasel - the cat's chorus...
Message:
Arrogant posts, both of you. What do you know about Mercedes' experiences of K? Nothing, right?

I doubt there is a single feeling, sensation, bliss-state, emotion or whatever derivable from K that you have had that ex-premies have NOT also had. You are certainly in no position to judge with such confidence.

It's just a question of ditching the superfluous garbage - your self-serving guru included. The rest of so-called Knowledge is no less available to ex-premies, and no less satisfying to those who derive some benefit.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 01:39:34 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Get Yer Goober Gear Here...
Message:
I was thinking about a 'Lion and dogs' accessories line for sale to the burgeoning Ex-Premie population in view of recent developments and thought maybe some of the suits around the place might give me a little advice. Mr. Dettmers, you out there, boy?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 05:21:03 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Get Yer Goober Gear Here...
Message:
so are we locked out? I have some more advice for you FA's now!!!! sheesh.

Gerry no no. don't do it As much as we post and care I truly believe we are un brainwashed enuf to not spend money. sorry. butyou reminded me of those long beach church swap meets.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 14:49:48 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: My Vital Dash is drooping, Selene
Message:
Aw sheesh, I guess I was seeing dollars signs everywhere. Mugs, tee-shirts, pens, the works. I was in the middle of delicate negotiations with PatC and Chuck Sprague for the rights to You too can be Satguru. But Selene you've tossed cold water over the whole deal.

Ah, you hard-hearted realist, you.

Back to the drawing board...

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:39:42 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The Vital Elk Is Dashing
Message:
I don't know where this 'vital dash' comes from - Jim started it in a translation he gave from a French article.

I was curious and just looked up 'dash' in an online French-English dictionary.
Here's what I found.

'Vital Elk!'.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:42:33 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: I Meant 'Looked Up Elan'
Message:
O.K. - 'elan' can mean 'surge' or 'momentum', but 'elk' is cute.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 16:00:14 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Let's Have A Little More Fun With This
Message:
This is from one of the online dictionaries that I use.

So vital can mean:

8. Destructive to life; fatal: a vital injury.

I use several dictionaries and always go by the principle that the most appropriate definition should be used for a word that has multiple definitions, and there are some words that have more that 20 definitions.

Steve

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 12:43:22 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Don't Stop!
Message:
So Elan Vital can be translated as 'mad elk'.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:47:13 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: So it means 'Surging Elk' ? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:09:24 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: black hearted realist
Message:
How did you know? You just put all my inner thoughts of self-loathing into one simple concise term. Thanks !! Now I can stop obsessing on it all for a few days til the hormones and cold subside.
Have you considered writing for a living? Seems to me you are the best writer on here.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:25:37 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Stephen King taught me all I know
Message:

And Jeff Rense, of course (snicker)

Have you considered writing for a living? Seems to me you are the best writer on here

Does it, ah, involve work? Seriously, thanks for the compliment, but the competition's really stiff here.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:37:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: yes lots of good writers
Message:
But you have a very distinct style and I admire it, the complement was sincere. I want to think I do as well, thing is I haven't written a damned thing for months.

I did get 'On Writing' and it's been saving my butt as I sit here since Monday sick as a fucking dog. I have been swearing a lot and reading 'On Writing' that is the state of my brain and yes EV monitors this is what happens when one leaves M. Funny thing is I got the flu when I was his feet kissing devotee as well so go figure huh?
And read my first Stephen King book while sick with a cold on the way to Florida. hmmm.... is it the book ? or the trip to, uh naw nevermind.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:49:32 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: the lard works in mysterious ways, selene
Message:
Hope your feeling better.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 01:33:57 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: floating lotus?
Message:
I woke up this morning tired of hearing how rawat never knows anything that is going on, that he needs to be defended againgst this band exes, how he is ignorant of the goins ons and doings of people in EV, instructors/mahatmas, etc, etc. What is he a lotus floating around the world that lands on stage speaks to peaple and is oblivious of anything else? I am sick of it. And of course I don't buy it. He is very savy and knows very well what the heck is going on. And if in fact he is ignorant of what's going on that is one more reason not to be involved with such a selfish person anyway.
I guess I needed to get that out of my chest. It was really festering there.
Thanks for listening.

Mercedes

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 20:58:05 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Good to see you cough that Haharaji hairball up NT
Message:
h
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 08:41:52 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: floating lotus?
Message:
M was treated from an early age as someone floating above everyone else, probably even his brothers. When he began speaking before thousands of people he benefited from the devotion showered upon his father. So naturally he would feel he is better than everyone. Now at middle age he is hopelessly out of touch with the thousands of his former devotees that have matured and moved on. So your anolgy is correct, that he just drifts into town and does his thing and drifts away in his Gulfstream jet - life is truly wonderful and not a care in the world. It would be a very difficult dream to awaken from and as long as there are enablers (premies) to protect him from the reality of planet earth, the game goes on.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 11:31:50 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: No floating lotus.
Message:
Richard: he just drifts into town and does his thing and drifts away in his Gulfstream jet - life is truly wonderful and not a care in the world.

It ain't so, Richard. Keep reading the testimonials here and a picture will emerge of a dark and twisted character living in a world of delusion. THAT world is increasingly under seige by the insistent demands for Rawat to be brought to account for his psychopathic fraud.

The strain shows in his face. Those around him increasingly see his as an addict and rage-oholic. His world is coming to an end, and he cares about that very much indeed.

It is the only thing he has ever shown that he cares about.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 06:58:49 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: No responses ?
Message:
Well here's the first one.

Hi Mercedes,

Probably the reason there are no responses is that everyone , well exes anyway , read what you've said and think - Yepp, right on. The premies don't know what to say anymore hence no responses.

Don't be discouraged, I see that unless you say something pretty controversial which loads of folks disagree with there are few replies. Probably more than a thousand people read what you said though.

Best wishes
Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 15:06:07 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Steve, Richard, John
Subject: No responses ?
Message:
Thank you guys, and Richard you said the right word in your post 'enabler' to describe premies, that's perfect I hadn't thought about it but yeah premies enable m's false belief he is something other than human and also premies in that state perpetuate their own fantasy (addiction) to the high that comes from believing someone other than yourself can fulfill you, save you, etc. That is why darshan is addictive there is no real love there is the hit, the drug, the high that fizzles out really quickly.

Mercedes (feeling a bit better after feeling insecure in the forum world, what did I say about someone other than ourselves...?, oh well I am recovering too)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 16:13:07 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Another hit of addictive darshan - true analogy
Message:
When I worked at IHQ in Denver eons ago, I used to say 'another day, another darshan' which was a cynical paraphrase of 'another day another dollar'. It was true, we worked (service) for darshan plain and simple. At that time it was true for me and frankly I don't regret my naive passion (or addiction to darshan as you aptly put it). It felt good to be part of the 'Mission' and I used to think people working for money were so bourgeoisie and pathetic.

Later when I moved to Miami and tried to get involved with the B707 flying hotel project at Deca, I was relieved in a way that I was rejected - I was neither in the ashram nor married (living in sin in the eyes of the church ladies at Deca). So I got an 'outside' job as a waiter in Miami and realized how damn difficult it was to make a dollar. Having seen first hand the waste by DLM/EV of premie's hard earned donations, I decided to never contribute other than my time. I caught a bus at 20th and Collins in front of a strip club and rode into Miami to work. Many days I would see M's family and PAM's on jet skis in front of M's mansion on Palm Island. I most truly felt like a poor refugee barely eeking out my existence after having lived in the palace so to speak. It was humbling but showed me there was life beyond the 'Darshan I.V.'

I got weaned off the Darshan I.V. gradually by first rejecting the wasteful organization while still having reverance for M. It wasn't until I began reading here that a lot of the cognitive dissonance finally saw light of day regarding M himself.

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