Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 06:28:03 (GMT)
From: Jun 11, 2001 To: Jun 20, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


Jerry -:- Maharaji's clever little observations -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 15:31:19 (GMT)
__ Henry -:- Love is blind -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:03:59 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- I didn't love Maharaji -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:39:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Henry -:- I didn't love Maharaji -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 13:52:23 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Maharaji's clever little observations -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 21:47:51 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Seinfeld's clever little observations -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:16:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kramer -:- Giddi-Up * -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 22:20:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- AAAAaaaaaaaaa! Jerry!!! -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:29:55 (GMT)
__ Ian Dury -:- My favorite quote -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 15:47:14 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- AMEN! ****** /NT -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 21:30:14 (GMT)

cq -:- This guy wants to buy a new yacht for the Maha! -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 12:47:34 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Correction - it was 'just a metaphor'! -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 20:25:01 (GMT)

Dave Punshon -:- Palace of Peace demolished -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 12:25:58 (GMT)
__ Tony -:- Ah,yes.The Palace.I have fond memories -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 10:07:20 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Mem...ories Are Made of This . -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:57:00 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Any chance of some photos? -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 21:44:45 (GMT)
__ __ Dave Punshon -:- Any chance of some photos? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 09:38:37 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Thanks. Healing, yes!-----------------n/t -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 18:09:59 (GMT)

Michele M. M. Deradune -:- To whomever cares to know my conclusions/answers -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 07:06:40 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- May I email you or am I still banned? NT -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 08:57:26 (GMT)

Jim -:- ANOTHER good list and interesting connection -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:25:18 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- JIM - This is great! -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:13:52 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Very interesting -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 13:06:43 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- I don't think so -:- Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 13:06:13 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Your Opinion, Please -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 02:34:30 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Your Opinion, Please -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 03:55:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Your Opinion, Please -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 07:57:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Your bloody country thriving on cults -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 20:53:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- What's graymail? .........nt -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 07:44:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I'm not sure, Manmot. I just made it up (NT) -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 17:43:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Well, it was a good one...... -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 02:26:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Definition of 'graymail' -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 02:31:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Definition of 'graymail' -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:03:20 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Uh oh! Gulp! (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:26:40 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Sheesh! -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 13:42:57 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Talking To Yourself, Jim? -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:32:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Only if you care, Steve. Only if you care. :) NT -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:34:49 (GMT)

Brian -:- Mini Journey -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:19:47 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Never mind -:- Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 23:27:24 (GMT)

gerry -:- Beryl's Pearls -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 15:40:24 (GMT)
__ bill -:- That would be Beryl Sadler of Hartford Ct. Her fam -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 19:41:34 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- Beryl's Pearls -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:22:46 (GMT)
__ Sonata -:- Have you ever 'Spontaneously Donated'? -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:38:40 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Pia is this the best your gang can do? -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 15:54:52 (GMT)

Katie H -:- About suggestions for EPO - a semi-rant -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 13:32:06 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Thanks y'all - and a clarification -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 14:34:48 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Love you Katie -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 17:21:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek + barney -:- let's hear it for Katie and her hubby -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 19:34:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Give Barney my best wishes -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:32:11 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- A Web Ring of independent pages -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:12:23 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- A Web Ring of independent pages - sounds great -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 14:38:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- She looks a lot like Thelma ;o) n/t -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 17:23:03 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- A Web Ring of independent pages -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:48:20 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- But pgs elsewhere lack the prestigious address(nt) -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:56:14 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- Sheesh, Daneane, you sound like my grandmother! -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 14:41:01 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- You are very much apriciated -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:56:06 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Thanks Katie -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:09:16 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Micehl -:- I do appreciate suggestions .... and help ! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:50:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks, J-M - great post, which I hope gets read -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 14:43:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- I'll e-mail you -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:26:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- I do appreciate suggestions .... and help ! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:21:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ and ps JM -:- email is fine as long as -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:35:45 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave (Head Librarian) -:- About suggestions for EPO - a semi-rant -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:38:16 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Try this search engine -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 15:12:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Good Semi-Rants...for new Posters.... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 15:35:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks Cynthia... -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 14:55:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Carl -:- Maybe it's just excitement at the MOMENTUM -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:05:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- MOMENTUM - yes, I agree -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 14:58:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Maybe it's just excitement at the MOMENTUM...Yes! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 21:23:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You've got to be kidding! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:25:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You've got to be kidding! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:22:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- He's still around, Sir D -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 15:40:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You've got to be kidding! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:59:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You've got to be kidding! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 21:20:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You've got to be kidding! -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:49:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Suggest all You Want! Jeezum Crow! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:43:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Cynth, I love you. I'm just a line-by-line guy :) -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:52:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Love you too, Jim...I think I'm molting:) -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 21:01:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Boundaries -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:32:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Boundaries -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 00:21:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Boundaries -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 14:50:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- you are not alone -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 19:47:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- I am sorry about that, Mercedes -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 15:45:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- TKU girls, love you n/t -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 00:12:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Leaky boundaries...Mercedes... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:44:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Leaky boundaries...Mercedes... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 22:09:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- not whiny to me, healthy -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 00:35:04 (GMT)

Brian -:- Where's Waldo? -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 13:26:38 (GMT)
__ kev -:- Where's Waldo? -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:35:15 (GMT)
__ silvia -:- Too Funny! I almost pee my panties. ROFL NT -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:52:44 (GMT)
__ __ piss artist? -:- there's a market for that -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:15:53 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Where's Waldo? -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Do you win? -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:13:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- What ... I missed an 'occulted' post there? -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:30:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Blimey...just found Jim Boeger's post - SCANDAL!!! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:25:17 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Use of pseudonyms on Forum V -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 13:07:46 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Anyone want to comment why you use aliases? -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:39:41 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Thank you, Steve for mentioning reality -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:31:04 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Thank you, Steve for mentioning reality -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:22:36 (GMT)
__ Hate ji (Bob) -:- Use of pseudonyms on Forum V -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:46:46 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Clueless, Sonata, Piss Artist - who the fuck are -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:37:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- FA, your double STANDARS suck!!! NT -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 05:33:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- FA, your double STANDARDS suck!!! NT -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 19:42:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC as Mrs Robinson -:- ...and now Liz Smith and Mr Anderson. Yoohoo FA! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 21:08:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Liz Smith is real -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:25:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Liz Smith is a real Hollywood gossip columnist -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:34:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ NIgel -:- It must be a fairly common name... -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:11:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- And I love your various channels, Patsy.....:) n/t -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 21:51:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- ''Aspects'' dahling! Why do people use aliases? -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 08:47:29 (GMT)

The Questioning Angel -:- Love Marks -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 06:11:26 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Love Marks -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 00:52:06 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Love Marks - in the cold light of morning -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:11:26 (GMT)
__ __ The Questioning Angel -:- Love Marks - in the cold light of morning -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 00:30:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- You interviewed Terence McKenna ? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:41:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- I guess you don't want me to get to know you then -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 02:54:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- M has his Love Marks too -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:16:03 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- televangelist business -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:02:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Yep, Rawat's the new Telly Tubby -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:19:05 (GMT)
__ Kalle Lasn -:- Love Marks -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 15:04:58 (GMT)

Jim -:- Springtime in Paris - bootstrap emotions -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 05:09:31 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- More like Springtime for Hitler -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:59:43 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Living longer -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 03:53:01 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- More like Springtime for Heller -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:59:58 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- Mr. Williams should read this-nt -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 10:00:25 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Springtime in Paris - bootstrap emotions -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 07:17:29 (GMT)
__ __ MW -:- Springtime in Paris - bootstrap emotions -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:47:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Probably ''Mr Williams'' aping Catweasel -:- Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 08:58:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- 'MW' is NOT 'Moldy Warp' (FA, please note...) -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 21:32:32 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- No, Scott, there's a BIG difference -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:05:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- I don't get it. -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 03:53:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, Scott, I'll try again -- but it's so simple! -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 04:23:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, here's an example -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 22:48:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- TKU Jim, Brilliant!!!! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 22:50:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, FA, could you please fix this? -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:11:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ FA -:- (Sigh)going to have to start charging for this! nt -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:30:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, wait! I kind of liked it all bold like that -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:42:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- But you have ''emboldened us'' with this -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:22:16 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- What the bastard said -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:17:00 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- What the bastard said -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:00:35 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- 'I'm glad to happened to him instead of me' -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 17:06:18 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- Freudian Slip. I remember it and tried to live it! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 10:55:30 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- TO Bryn OT -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 11:03:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi Jethro - ot -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 23:39:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bryndavies -:- Yes that was me.Email me and reveal all. nt -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:25:24 (GMT)

la-ex -:- If I could have been a fly on the wall,what an.... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:27:50 (GMT)
__ Silvia -:- What a DIVINE service..... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:56:30 (GMT)

jondon -:- Worcester Mass. Event -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:26:51 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Worcester Mass. Event -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:06:00 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Worcester Mass. Event/ FA--an idea for EPO-- -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:32:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- La-ex - this is time-sensitive information -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 13:34:46 (GMT)

Jim Sander -:- The many faces of denial, part two.... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:13:02 (GMT)
__ Arthur Sawyers -:- How Exciting. Clarity -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 18:18:15 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- How Exciting. Clarity -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:24:57 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Clarity? Can someone translate this guy? (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:00:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mark -:- Clarity? Can someone translate this guy? (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:46:33 (GMT)
__ Henry -:- The many faces of denial, part two.... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:26:36 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- The many faces of denial, part two.... -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 00:23:21 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Very good analysis -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:35:56 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- The many faces of denial, part two.... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 12:40:53 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- This sounds s-o-o-o familiar -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:34:08 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- The many faces of denial, part two.... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:11:53 (GMT)
__ __ Louella Parsnip -:- The many faces of denial, part ONE.... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 08:32:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Thanks Mr/Mrs Parsnip....nt -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 13:56:28 (GMT)
__ Mark Appleman -:- The many faces of denial, part two.... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:39:58 (GMT)
__ David M -:- Great Post -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:19:10 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- The many faces of denial, part two.... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:01:27 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- How the premies saw Jim's letter -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:07:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Cool!-----------------------nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:22:46 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Thanks Jim S, another great post -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:47:23 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- Another BEST OF -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:42:21 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 15:31:19 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's clever little observations
Message:
I don't know about the rest of you, but one of the thngs that bolstered my faith in Maharaji, as being a wise and holy man, was these clever little observations he would spout every now and then during his satsang. Stuff like, and I'm paraphrasing because I can't remember exactly what he said, just the gist of it:

'If you really want to test your horoscope, read it at the end of the day instead of at the beginning.'

'Humans build statues and then bow before them. Something they build with their own hands they then worship as if it's greater than them.'

'Who is the God you worship? Is it the God who created you, or is it the god YOU created? There's a difference, you know.'

There's probably more, but I can't remember them just now. The important thing is how I measured Maharaji as being the wiser of the wise because of these observations. It seems that any little thing Maharaji did or said that was impressive, I took as evidence of his divinity, or at the very least, his superior wisdom.

Isn't this the way it goes when you start with an assumption about somebody? When you think somebody is superior in some way, all they have to say, or do, is the littlest things to justify your faith in them. If it had been anybody else who made the observations I heard Maharaji make, I wouldn't have been half as impressed. But because it was Maharaji, I thought 'how wise he is'.

I just thought I'd throw this out because, really, it was a BIG part of my devotion to Maharaji. I started with an assumption about him, and any little thing he said, however slight, I took as evidence that my devotions were justified.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:03:59 (GMT)
From: Henry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Love is blind
Message:
Your observation makes sense. When your view of someone is colored by emotion, anything they say is colored by that emotion. Whether your glasses are rose colored or brown colored, doesn't matter. I think much of my adoration was bolstered by the rose colored glasses that I was unaware of. The content of what MJ said was of mediocre quality, but I, like you, either elevated it to wisdom or concluded that someday I might understand it -- if not understandable, the fault was mine.
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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:39:01 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: I didn't love Maharaji
Message:
I was infatuated with him, with the idea that he was my ticket to divine liberation. That's not love. That's just infatuation with an idea about who somebody is, as well as with an idea of what he's capable of. Love is something else, and it happens between two people who share time and intimacy with each other, and I guess the chemistry's got to be right too. I don't see how it can happen any other way. I never shared anything like that with Maharaji, although, I guess, as far as choosing a cult leader goes, the chemistry was right between me and him. For other people it was the Reverend Moon, or Jim Jones, or somebody else, but not for me. I was just juju for the googoo.
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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 13:52:23 (GMT)
From: Henry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I didn't love Maharaji
Message:
You're right Jerry. 'Love' is a vague and overused word. Infatuation (with all the projection that the term implies) is more accurate.
Henry
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 21:47:51 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Maharaji's clever little observations
Message:
Well, if that's the case ... I should be devoted to Jerry Seinfeld.

But, then afterall, I am Elaine for a reason.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:16:43 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Seinfeld's clever little observations
Message:
The point I'm trying to make, Elaine, is if Maharaji had made the observations Jerry Seinfeld does, the ones you're so impressed by, you'd place much more significance on them as proof that your assumptions about Maharaji being holy and wise are correct. So, did you ever think Seinfeld was the Perfect Master because of his wise little cracks? Of course not. Why? Probably because he never claimed to be, nor did anybody ever encourage you to think he was.

Personally, I think Seinfeld sucks. I never could figure what people saw in him. I do like Kramer though. He always cracks me up. And that other guy, the chubby little fella, he's going to have his own show soon. I forget the name of it, but he plays a new age guru. His motto is, 'Remember, YOU are the U in Universe'. Now, if Maharaji had said THAT.... I don't know what I'd have made of it.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 22:20:46 (GMT)
From: Kramer
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Giddi-Up *
Message:
Imagine Kramer as a perfect bumbling master - that would be funny. Is it true George is going to be playing a new-age Guru? If so, that's funny. It would make people wiser or hipper to the bullshit coming out of the mouth of cult leaders.
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:29:55 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: AAAAaaaaaaaaa! Jerry!!!
Message:
Where's your sense of humour?!! That was very wry wit!

(Salam, take notes!)

(Hi Elaine!)

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 15:47:14 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: My favorite quote
Message:
The last time I saw Rawat a few years ago, he said 'Don't worry about the Internet, you have the inner-net.'

Thanks to the Internet, I am no longer a CULT-member!!

Amen!!

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 21:30:14 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: AMEN! ****** /NT
Message:
zzz
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 12:47:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: This guy wants to buy a new yacht for the Maha!
Message:
check out the post at 'Life's Great' from a guy called Carlos. It's called 'a new yacht'
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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 20:25:01 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Correction - it was 'just a metaphor'!
Message:
carlos recants:

QUOTE:

'You clerely missed some of what I thought was clerely metaphor. Yes, if I closed a big enough deal I'd throw a mil his way, for prachar, and some as a gift for the support of him and his. But I'd ask him if I could do something about those who left the ashrams with less than they entered before I'd contribute to a heavy duty toy. I've been touched by the plight of some of those folks, as I've seen it described on F5.

And if you laugh, well, I understand laughter is healing. And I'm not interested in winning exes back, so I won't try and get into why we disagree on M. I'll just say it is less 'common sense free' than you would believe.'

ENDQUOTE


.
.
.

Moral of this tale?

er, 'never trust a premie?'

sheeesh ...

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 12:25:58 (GMT)
From: Dave Punshon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Palace of Peace demolished
Message:
Perhaps of interest to older exs - I was passing East Dulwich the other day and noticed that the old PoP is being knocked down.
Quite theraputic for me to see it go as it was where I was shown the techniques in 1973.
all the best
Dave
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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 10:07:20 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: Dave Punshon
Subject: Ah,yes.The Palace.I have fond memories
Message:
of the old joint.I was there in 1974 on my way to Copenhagen.It was the biggest fucking satsang hall I had ever been in(up until then anyway)and i had a good time there.I can't say i did not.

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:57:00 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Dave Punshon
Subject: Mem...ories Are Made of This .
Message:
Ah the Palace , the ferocious scrum to get in whenever HE was expected .

The all night meditations with the blissful silence punctuated now & then by the sound of Mahatma...? fetching a dozer a mighty crack on the back .

The interminable hell-fire satsang.

The possibility of getting heavied out for smoking a cig. anywhere near the place.(how times have changed eh)

I identify my emotional feeling about the place in its heyday as a disturbing combination of euphoria & fear .

My one & only close encounter with the superior entity now known as Capt. Rawat came from the Palace , & I will try to explain it as it felt at the time although now I shake my head at my past self .

Exiting one night I ran into an old friend who was in the WPC.

Chit-chat being out of order just jsca & a few words exchanged was the normal social interaction with those about the lord's business , but even that brief encounter was interrupted by my OF's superior officer instructing him to go to the residence (Highgate) asap.

My OF told me I could give him a lift as I was going in that general direction , & so off we set .

In the car we had a bit of satsang & my OF said he could probably get me into the res .

Going up Park Lane I was king of the road , cutting up guys in Rollers , invincible , immortal , going flat out towards the feet , but getting closer to ground zero paranoia set in.

What was the etiquette for being with God in his own house ?

Just mind , meditate more & you'll be alright.

Coming up to the turn into the road the sky was suddenly lit up with dazzling flashes of blue light. I almost died .

The house was guarded by 4 or 5 guys who knew my OF & we were allowed in . The flashes were from someone doing welding on something in the driveway .

I get directed to a small room with 9 people in it all still as statues & my OF vanishes , that's when the mind engulfed me .

I just knew that God would appear for a spot of satsang before turning in & that the chances that he would pick me to give it were horribly large .

Imagine having to praise god in front of god who could see into every nook & cranny ....the idea just totally freaked me out .

Anyway after several lifetimes the door opened & in stepped the main man . I fleetingly wondered why he bothered with 3 bodyguards inside his own house but decided he just put up with it because he didn't want to let down people who wanted to do service .

He laid into some German guy & told him to go home , stop following him around & split .

The relief !

Getting out was harder than getting in , people kept asking who I was & what was I doing etc.

My impression of him ...total power no bliss , heretical thought suppress .

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 21:44:45 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Dave Punshon
Subject: Any chance of some photos?
Message:
Could be put up side-by-side with old ones from the glory days of the cult as a sort of symbolic gesture.

Get yer Brownie out Dave!!

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 09:38:37 (GMT)
From: Dave Punshon
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Any chance of some photos?
Message:
When I get my digital cam, I'll take one :)

Dave

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 18:09:59 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Dave Punshon
Subject: Thanks. Healing, yes!-----------------n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 07:06:40 (GMT)
From: Michele M. M. Deradune
Email: michele@deradune.com
To: Everyone
Subject: To whomever cares to know my conclusions/answers
Message:
Hi, y'all. Since I got censored on this forum in the form of limited postings (but especially limited word count) I did not feel I could state my position here. However anyone wanting to know may email me at michele@deradune.com and I will be happy to forward to you my personal conclusions re Jagdeo controversy, etc. Namaste! -- Michele (not the ex-instructor) Deradune
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 08:57:26 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Michele M. M. Deradune
Subject: May I email you or am I still banned? NT
Message:
h
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:25:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: ANOTHER good list and interesting connection
Message:
In my recent legal travels I've met a psych professor at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, Barry Beyerstein, whose worth mentioning here twice over. First, Barry's the head of the British Columbia Skeptics Society. He just sent me their first electronic newsletter, 'The Rational Enquirer', and lo and behold there's an article on cults. Here's part of it along with Barry's own cult checklist:

Who is vulnerable to cult recruitment? We all are at some time
in our lives. Most of us satisfy the foregoing needs within our
normal range of relationships and this gives us a certain
amount of protection, as long as we stay within that
framework.
Cult recruits are not any more likely to be mentally ill, less
intelligent, or less well educated than the average population.
Nor are they necessarily more gullible on average. They do
tend, however, to be “seekers,” constantly looking for pat
answers and magical solutions for personal or societal
problems. They are often driven to find answers (any answer)
to the great metaphysical questions, rather than live with
uncertainty. Those who have a higher tolerance for ambiguity
can live with the acceptance that such things are ultimately
unknowable.

Interesting this 'seeker' thing. If Beyerstein's right, what happens when a whole generation becomes 'seekers'? I think we know.

How can we recognize a cult? A fair use of the cult label for
a questionable organization would require the presence of
most of the items on the following checklist.
Does the group:
(a) engage in deceptive recruitment practices? (recruiters
typically disguise the true nature and aims of the group when
seeking converts)
(b) tend to target vulnerable individuals, as outlined above?
(c) offer unconditional affirmation and support initially, but
soon make its continuance contingent on obedience?
(d) have a closed social system that makes a special effort to
isolate acolytes from family, friends, etc.?
(e) use constant bombardment with pro-group and pro-leader
messages and exclusion of other messages?
(f) have a rigid, authoritarian hierarchy?
(g) have a leader and ruling clique that are perceived to possess
infallible insight, supernatural powers, etc.? Do they claim to
have been chosen by some higher authority to rule, and thus
to be excused from the normal social restrictions on one’s
behavior?
(h) have an eclectic, often muddled and internally
contradictory, set of teachings - usually a magic-laden
philosophy that claims to have infallible answers to those “big
ticket” questions of existence?
(i) have a strict behavior code that governs all aspects of how
one should think, feel, and act? Are there strong penalties for
deviation?
(j) instill fear of outsiders (the “bunker mentality”)? Does the
group try to convince members they are powerless to act
without the group’s support and that the world “out there” is
uncaring and hostile?
(k) engage in major forms of exploitation (e.g., financial,
occupational, or sexual - of self, spouse, or children)?
(l) demand immoral, unethical, or illegal activity on the part
of its members?
Who starts a cult? Some cult leaders are unequivocally
psychopaths and con-artists, but others spring from more
complex roots. The late British psychiatrist Anthony Storr
published a book (Feet of Clay) that discusses common
attributes in those who become cult leaders. There often
appears in their backgrounds some kind of serious
psychological crisis that they have surmounted by interpreting
it as a special calling to some higher purpose. Even those gurus
who start out believing they are on an inspired mission to
improve the lives of others usually succumb to the seductions
of unbridled adoration and privilege, resulting ultimately in
disaster. It is as Lord Acton so wisely admonished: “Power
corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

Good stuff there. I especially like 'h'.

The other thing that's interesting for us about Barry is that he was recently consulted by the French government on this issue of cults. Here's the relevant newsletter blurb:

Barry was contacted a couple of months before this seminar
by an emissary from the French Prime Minister’s office, M.
Jean-Yves Defay, who was on a North American fact-finding
tour. The French government, like that of Germany, has
become concerned about the growing influence of cults at
high levels in the business community, the media, and the
government bureaucracy. The French administration was
seeking to compare notes on similar matters in other
jurisdictions. The Prime Minister’s special representative was
surprised to learn that the Canadian government, and even the
Americans, have not been taking much note of cult influences
on this side of the Atlantic. M. Defay was particularly
concerned about irregularities in the ways in which the US
Internal Revenue Service abruptly abandoned its
decades-long opposition to tax exempt status for the Church
of Scientology. The head of the IRS, after a brief, unheralded
meeting with a senior Scientologist, suddenly ordered his
officials (over their strong protest) to cease trying to collect
millions in back taxes from Scientology and to grant the
“church” tax exempt status thenceforth. In Europe, the issue
of cult influences in society is gaining in importance while
here it seems to have attracted little concern.

I turned him onto EPO and here's what he said:

Finally got to my e-mail. Thanks for the complimements on the summary of my talk, Jim. Feel free to use the checklist, and quote me if you like. Our BC Skeptics website is: http://eslvcr.firplug.net/bcskeptics. There's already
some stuff on Sai Baba there -- If you e-mail our webmaster, Ted Powell, he would link your site to ours (perhaps you could do the same for the BC Skeptics and CSICOP--there are many shared interests here). The website for the international skeptics oraganization, CSICOP (I'm on their executive council) is: www.csicop.org.

I checked out 'ex-premie.' It's great--a wealth of good stuff.

Suggestions? Comments?

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:13:52 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: JIM - This is great!
Message:
I'm going to have my counsellor take a look at this posting if he hasn't already. I told you in an email that I had an appt. set up to talk with a counsellor. Well the meeting went very well. We spent approx. 40 minutes on EPO. He had a female friend who went to see M when he was a boy, so he was quite attentive when I briefed him about the FatBoy.

The counsellor wants to discuss this topic with his colleges and he thought the Cult Awareness campaign was a worthy challenge. He declared that cult conditioning ran contrary to the goals of the university especially the role of counsellors. I left his office gratuitous for my brave endevour to reveal this wacko little secret. Having met with me on previous occasions, he expressed amazement and sincere interest that something like this could have happened to me. Not only that, he was amazed that I had met other students who were both knowing and unknowlingly in cults. The time feels ripe, not just because I recently unveiled my own cult-possessiveness but because the time feels ripe.

Thanks for this piece of encouragement...and imagine that, on my own turf...yippee.

Deborah


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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 13:06:43 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Very interesting
Message:
M. Defay was particularly
concerned about irregularities in the ways in which the US
Internal Revenue Service abruptly abandoned its
decades-long opposition to tax exempt status for the Church
of Scientology. The head of the IRS, after a brief, unheralded
meeting with a senior Scientologist, suddenly ordered his
officials (over their strong protest) to cease trying to collect
millions in back taxes from Scientology and to grant the
“church” tax exempt status thenceforth.

This IS interesting. It shows that cults are becoming mainstream in our society. It's no longer strange to belong to a group like Scientology and when such notables as John Travolta and Tom Cruise are among their leading members, cults don't have the same negative impact they once did on the collective consciousness.

Maybe today's cults are like the early Christians who at first were feared and persecuted by society, almost annihilated, in fact, and then in time, thanks to the Roman Emperor Constantine, became the main religion of the Roman Empire. Perhaps, like then, the winds of change are upon us and that ol' time religion is on it's way out while that new age religion is on it's way in, just like in the days of the Roman Empire. It certainly looks that way, don't it?

Glad you made a new friend in the Skeptics Society, Jim. Here's to a long and happy one.

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Date: Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 13:06:13 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I don't think so
Message:
I don't find the comparisons with early Xianity at all convincing, myself. Xianity united the old Roman Empire in a common religion, but cults threaten a balkanisation and fragmentation of shared assumptions and perceptions.

Anyway, surely America has always been a sanctuary for far-out religions, what's new about 'today's cults' to be explained? And even if the observation were apposite, one could still ask why it is relevant. For me, a clue is found in this passage:

They (cultists) are often driven to find answers (any answer) to the great metaphysical questions, rather than live with uncertainty. Those who have a higher tolerance for ambiguity can live with the acceptance that such things are ultimately unknowable.

As JBS Haldane remarked 'The universe is not only stranger than we suppose, but stranger than we can suppose.'

It seems to me the choice is to Get used to that, or get weirded by it. I think one reason (apart from the religious history) that American psychology is so vulnerable to irrationality and cultishness is that famous 'can do' attitude. There seems little awareness that possibilities might be limited; that knowledge itself might have limitations. Heck! That's almost heresy, the answer is out there somewhere, right?

Maybe not. Maybe the answer lies in that most unAmerican of activities - accepting there is no answer! Ot to put it like a cryptic guru bullshitter 'the end of knowledge is the beginning of wisdom'.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 02:34:30 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Your Opinion, Please
Message:
What is it, in your opinion, that gives sleazy cults like Elan Vital and Scientology such influence with IRS, Revenue Canada, etc.?

Steve

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 03:55:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Your Opinion, Please
Message:
Steve,

I read a bit about Scientology and the IRS and it seems like that cult just intimidated the hell out of the IRS agents, vis-a-vis blackmail, graymail and maybe worse. The government just blinked. But I don't assume for a moment that EV has any particular sway over any government agency, Canadian, American or otherwise. Do you? Why?

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 07:57:18 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Your Opinion, Please
Message:
O.K., maybe I'll make my question more specific - how does an organization like Scientology intimidate/blackmail a monstrous organization like the I.R.S.?

Steve

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 20:53:43 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Your bloody country thriving on cults
Message:
Don't you Yanks realize how much money comes to the US thanks to these organizations ?

Your government won't care as long as they don't kill everybody else.

Money, that's the reason ! Of course Rawat is only a small fish, but he does bring money home.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 07:44:39 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's graymail? .........nt
Message:
m
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 17:43:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: I'm not sure, Manmot. I just made it up (NT)
Message:
ddddddd
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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 02:26:45 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well, it was a good one......
Message:
Maybe you can dream up a meaning and introduce it to the lexicon in your practice...see how far it goes. :)
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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 02:31:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Definition of 'graymail'
Message:
graymail: (alt. greymail) 1) n. written correspondence from extra-terestrial lifeform; 2)v. to threaten to legally expose mildly embarrassing information about someone.
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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:03:20 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Definition of 'graymail'
Message:
Well, if you ever decide to move to Roswell and practice law, definition no. 1 will come in handy. I like definition no. 2 and, who knows, it might come in handy some day. At one point, someone could've probably 'graymailed' me about my cult involvement, but not any more. I no longer find it embarassing. Of course, I don't think I'll ever run for office. I can picture the mudslinging ads if I ever did.
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:26:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Uh oh! Gulp! (nt)
Message:
gggggg
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 13:42:57 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sheesh!
Message:
Jim,

Seriously, when it comes to bolding text, providing links to other websites and such, you.... suck.

Ever hear of previewing your post before submitting it?

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:32:34 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Talking To Yourself, Jim?
Message:
Should I be concerned?

Steve

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:34:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Only if you care, Steve. Only if you care. :) NT
Message:
fff
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:19:47 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Mini Journey
Message:
I just put Denis' Journey online. It's short and sweet, but the contribution is appreciated.
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Date: Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 23:27:24 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Brian
Subject: Never mind
Message:
I just took it back offline, at his request. Seems that the entire text wasn't received by me, so the entry was short. He either will or won't re-submit it.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 15:40:24 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Beryl's Pearls
Message:
By Beryl (edited, with commentary)

Maharaji never asked me for Money

...I came across Maharaji in 1977. At no time has Maharaji ever asked me, his student, for money. I have plenty of money, yet no one has ever approached me and asked me to give money to Maharaji.

I believe you, Beryl.

Maharaji is a brilliant man and I'm proud that he's my teacher. He doesn't have to ask for financial help from anyone, he's quite capable of providing for his family himself, which he does, and his lifestyle and personal income are as much his business as mine is mine.

Yes Beryl, quite correct.

He gives no money to me, and I don't give any to him.

I really believe you, Beryl.

I'm not an easy candidate for a cult.

Of course you aren't, dear. It's really just a club, like Kiwanis, of the Knights of Columbus.

If you are money-mad, you spread the stink around. Enough said.

Sniff, sniff...what's that smell?

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 19:41:34 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: That would be Beryl Sadler of Hartford Ct. Her fam
Message:
family is all premies.
Two sisters and mom and dad. Of course, how many of them practise
enough to make sure they dont qualify for marolyn rawats
'biggest assholes' catagory?
the former Durga Ji said 'those that dont practice knowledge are the biggest assholes.' real nice mom......
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:22:46 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Beryl's Pearls
Message:
pia....maybe that really stands for something rather than someone...like 'premies in anger'? 'Premies in apathy'? 'Pauline in anonymity'?

I think it's time for Pauline Premie to have her own site in direct response to all the negative vibes and accusations her sister Pia is conjuring up.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:38:40 (GMT)
From: Sonata
Email: None
To: Beryl
Subject: Have you ever 'Spontaneously Donated'?
Message:
Beryl,

What's this? Sounds a bit sticky to me.

During his conferences, Guru Maharaji will be mobilizing several thousands of followers to whom he should inculcate his techniques of meditation backed by 'spontaneous' donations already sought by means the web sites www.events.elanvital.org and www.elanvital.fr, as well as via a voice server located in the United States under the number 00-1-408-907-4675. The rates of the donations are fixed by internal documents of the cult to 600 French Francs, 750 FF or 1,200 FF. They will be directly collected on bank accounts abroad and will thus escape the taxes (VAT) and legal obligations current in most of the countries concerned by the program.

BTW - just go to www.vih.org and select combat then select the english translation.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 15:54:52 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Pia is this the best your gang can do?
Message:
Now that I've left behind new age bubblehead thinking and graduated into alpha clear under Jim's gentle and patient tutelage, it's amazing to see the glaring errors in logic and the sins against critic thinking committed in defense of the Filament on Pia's page. Shocking, really.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 13:32:06 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: About suggestions for EPO - a semi-rant
Message:
This is not directed specifically at anyone, but recently there have been a LOT of requests for new pages on EPO and so forth. At the same time, people have been asking J-M to get the Combat article translated, have been asking for more links, and etc. etc. etc. People have also been asking for stuff that is ALREADY on the site, and that they can't find - and then they ask for a site re-organization.

First please try to understand that J-M and Brian and the FA's already have full-time jobs in the real world. No one pays them to run the site and the forum.

There is already LOTS of information on ex-premie.org - so much that many people have problems locating it. Everyone seems to have a different idea of what should be prioritized. If you think that something should be put in a more prominent position, you are welcome (really!) to make your own page and put what YOU think is the most important information on ex-premie.org on it. The search engines will pick it up, and EPO can link to it (IF you provide the link) - and it never hurts to have more ex-premie links out there for the search engines to find. And no one is going to be offended if you do this - believe me.

If you feel that you personally do not have time to make a web page, please consider that you are asking other people to do the work you don't 'have time' to do.

Please don't ask for more material to be put on the home page of EPO. Again, if something is THAT important to you, then please make a page on Geocities, Tripod, etc. and put it front and center.

Also please try and understand that adding links to pages of other people's sites that aren't home pages is a real hassle - if the person who runs the site rearranges the site, then the links break. It is hard enough trying to keep track of links to home pages, especially when there are a lot of links.

Obviously, I have a personal interest in this, but I think the near-constant requests to 'put this on EPO' are getting to be a bit overwhelming. We're ALL human here.

Appreciate it -
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 14:34:48 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Thanks y'all - and a clarification
Message:
Hey all of you - I appreciate all the support here - thank you.

To those who asked, my intention was not to discourage people from making CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions at all. However, I wanted to give people some kind of idea of what kind of suggestions are not generally constructive.

I hope anyone who is into making suggestions or actually helping reads J-M's post below (he's a LOT nicer and more patient than I am.) For example, e-mailing him suggestions rather than posting them on the forum where he may not see them, actually writing a page you want to see, etc.

Re asking for help with ex-premie.org - as a few people suggested - this has been done. The result is that many have volunteered (with good intentions) but few have committed :). I suggested alternate sites (like Sir David's, Roger's, Salam's, the MRC site) because sometimes it's easier for people to work independently on something which reflects their OWN feelings and opinions. Also, I'm all for having more ex-premie sites on line.

And to Mercedes - I know I have 'boundary' problems in other areas of my life (who doesn't?), but don't feel that this is a good example of that. I am married to the webmaster and literally have the site in my living room - you can ask anyone who's been to my house. I'd have to quit talking to my husband, stop answering the phones, break some major commitments, and possibly move out of my house in order to ignore what goes on here - and I don't want to do that. (Also, I have a big mouth, and am not as polite as J-M and the FA's.)

I'll answer some of the posts individually, but this takes care of a lot of it.

Thanks again (and thanks for putting up with my rant...)
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 17:21:43 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Love you Katie
Message:
I have a big mouth too. You are pretty genteel for a lady with a big mouth. I like that!

And I do think it is a point well taken that can be lost in the reactions that people need to direct their comments to the proper parties. Web pages and content J-M, Forum Administration to the FA's.

And for 'look and feel,' make your own website and join Chuck and Pat's webring.

LOVE, f

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 19:34:04 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek + barney
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Francesca
Subject: let's hear it for Katie and her hubby
Message:
Don't want to turn this into a Katie fest, but Katie and Brian sure have done a lot for all of us here at this website. While the site may run automagically and somewhat unattended on software and flaky servers, there's a lot of stuff and responsibility involved.

And it's really easy to not have enough time to maintain and grow a webpage. I've been neglecting Roger's House of Maharaji Drek for the longest time and I feel like it's becoming like a case of child neglect. Hopefully, I'll get back to it when my situation stablizes.

So, go ahead and rant, Katie. Hasn't hurt anybody yet. Besides, your rants are so, so polite, coherent and all that it's rather difficult to imagine anyone getting too upset.

And barney says hello from Amalgamated Convalescent Homes, Inc. where he enjoys his daily doses of Chlorpromazine (aka Thorazine) and watching the 'Price is Right'.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:32:11 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek + barney
Subject: Give Barney my best wishes
Message:
Thanks, by the way :), and glad to hear that Barney is resting comfortably - I kind of envy him (snicker).
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:12:23 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Katie H
Subject: A Web Ring of independent pages
Message:
We do not have to use yahoo's web ring as it is a pain in the ass. But I'm willing (with Chuck's help) to create a ring of our own (as we have have done with our Porn Nun spoof.) You simply put a link to the Web Ring homepage on EPO which will remain the same always. The ringmaster then has to keep track of the changing urls of the individual sites.

Chuck has registered a yahoo webring (Maharaji - Revealing the Truth) as well as some other names (Maharaji Watch) which we will use for our personal pages. If someone wants to administer the yahoo webring they are welcome but we'll probably create a ring of our own. If anyone is interested contact us.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 14:38:27 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: A Web Ring of independent pages - sounds great
Message:
Hi Pat - the last time I talked to you and Chuck, it was unclear whether you felt ready to implement this yet. If you do feel ready, I think it's a great idea - and much needed.

I won't even ASK about the 'Porn Nun' :).

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 17:23:03 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: She looks a lot like Thelma ;o) n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:48:20 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: A Web Ring of independent pages
Message:
Sounds like plan! I have zilch tech know how (apart from building infrared cameras and telescopes). This way there are more entry ways to get into the ex-premie-info. This is good for spreading the word. When the press needs to do some research it is more visible
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:56:14 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: But pgs elsewhere lack the prestigious address(nt)
Message:
wawawawawa
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 14:41:01 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Sheesh, Daneane, you sound like my grandmother!
Message:
She was a terrible snob and was always talking about 'the best addresses' - of course, HERS was one (or it used to be, back in the 1940's!)

Love to you, girl -
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:56:06 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: You are very much apriciated
Message:
I understand only partially how much energy you guys put into this site and this work. We can be a pain in the ass sometimes.
But know that you already earned your golden chair in the clouds!
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:09:16 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie H and Sir Dave
Subject: Thanks Katie
Message:
I've been thinking of doing exactly that, making another site, for the reasons you and Sir Dave gave. As far as site organization -- everyone intuitively goes through a site a different way, and wants it presented to them in a way that pleases them. And you can't please everyone. Other sites made by people who post here, containing some of the same information, or the links presented differently, will not only leads to more hits on the search engines, but will be a way of getting the information out there in a different format, WITHOUT having to redesign EPO.

I understand and appreciate your rant, and the fact that people have real jobs and aren't being paid to do all the work, and that as a bunch, we can be pretty demanding. I used to maintain a website (on my own time and on my own paid server) for a Tibetan Buddhist group, and a few times had to deal with people telling me to change things, or present them differently. (Always appreciated being told about the typos, though!)

I hope you're not saying that when NEW content is found, however, such as an important new article or some insider information (such as how to organize a program), that we should not bother to bring it to Brian's or J-M's attention. (That's probably J-M's department though.) But I also agree that it is Brian's and J-M's judgment call, and that if they choose not to include it or use it, that's their prerogative.

I do agree that none of us should demand that anything be added or changed, however. If, in Brian's or J-M's judgment it's not needed, it can be put on another website, for sure.

love and THANKS, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:50:26 (GMT)
From: Jean-Micehl
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I do appreciate suggestions .... and help !
Message:
I do agree that none of us should demand that anything be added or changed, however. If, in Brian's or J-M's judgment it's not needed, it can be put on another website, for sure.

You can ask for changes, but if you also help me.

What I mostly appreciate, is when people send me documents already formatted. Making a new page out of that sort of stuff is really fast. Processing tons of raw stuff is not easy, and time consuming.

If you suggest improvements, that fine for me too. But then provide me with charts etc, and please help me to sort pages and/or documents.

And I also appreciate to deal with this by email. Involving all the forum's posters and/or readers doesn't help much.

And also allow me to disagree please !!

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 14:43:53 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jean-Micehl
Subject: Thanks, J-M - great post, which I hope gets read
Message:
You are much nicer than I am :). Also, your suggestions are very practical and constructive - hope people take them to heart.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:26:39 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jean-Micehl
Subject: I'll e-mail you
Message:
We can talk about formats or sending already created web pages, etc.

And you MUST be allowed to disagree. You can't post everything in the world. We can put it somewhere ourselves, too. You work hard!!! If I find anything to add I'm also willing to help.

love, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:21:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jean-Micehl
Subject: I do appreciate suggestions .... and help !
Message:
I am too busy to compose or write any pages but if someone wants me to mark up their text I can do that and send it back. And proofread (haha I know I don't proofread my own posts)
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:35:45 (GMT)
From: and ps JM
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: email is fine as long as
Message:
there is no time constraints. I remember we had a lot of delay due to time zones and work scheduels etc. when I helped with pages before. But if there is no hurry email is OK with me.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:38:16 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave (Head Librarian)
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: About suggestions for EPO - a semi-rant
Message:
You're right. The more ex-premie sites there are linking to other ex-premie sites such as ex-premie.org (and my own) the better it is for the search engines. If Elan Vital fill the search engines with crap, why can't we. And ours is better crap.

Make sure you have the words 'Maharaji' and 'premie' in the meta tags and lots of incidences of the word 'Maharaji' on the page. Then your page and others it links to will get high up on the search engine 'maharaji' searches.

Of course, the Maha could change his name to Fred Johnson and that would throw us all...

.. Dave

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 15:12:41 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sir Dave (Head Librarian)
Subject: Try this search engine
Message:
Just go to the Search The Big Three search engine for all your ex-premie needs.

Results guaranteed, or your money back. This search engine has now been updated with all the latest stuff.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 15:35:15 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Good Semi-Rants...for new Posters....
Message:
Hi Katie and Sir Dave,

Thanks for setting the record straight. I've noticed way too many requests for links, suggestions to ''make the site'' better, etc., like ''Can't EPO put this in a special section?''

It's almost as if ''EPO'' is some person with nothing to do but take requests.

If new people take the time to really explore this site, I think that they would get used to finding stuff that they are asking for.

One suggestion for being able to find stuff more quickly is to have a bookmark file (this is what I do) just for EPO related links. Whenever something new is added, such as Jean-Michel's Combat article, I bookmark it, so I can go back and read when I have more time.

As far as suggestions, Katie, you are absolutely right on!

I am most grateful to Katie, Brian, all FAs, Sir Dave, Jean-Michel, Mr. eDrek, Salam for his ''Rawat Sucks'' site and the ''It IS so'' site, and if I missed anyone who contributes to the administration of this site and forum, you too. So much work has gone into developing and maintaining EPO, it's sincerely presumptuous to ask for more. My 2cents!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 14:55:43 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks Cynthia...
Message:
Actually, constructive suggestions, where the person offers to write the page, are welcome, as you can see by J-M's post above. Posting something on the forum is usually not all that constructive (IMHO, anyway). My intention was not to discourage all suggestions - more to get people to THINK about what they are suggesting, realize that they are talking to people who may be just as busy as they themselves are, and to offer to help implement said suggestions.

BTW, I read your post about what you are going through - that is tough. I'm sorry that you have to go through that - major life changes (like moving) are never easy. During 1993-1999, I moved across country to four different states, and made many other significant life changes (relationships, work, etc.) I survived it, but I'm still recovering from the accumulated stress. And I know that that that stress makes me tend to regress into learned behaviors that I once needed for my own survival, but that aren't healthy or even effective now.

Hope you are OK -
Lots of love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:05:08 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Cynthia / Everyone
Subject: Maybe it's just excitement at the MOMENTUM
Message:
that seems to be happening just now, in the apparent effectiveness of this site, that is prompting people to want to share ideas, to want to sharpen the blade, as it were.

Without doubt, the folks doing the behind-the-scenes labor are performing beyond the call of duty. We all owe them many thanks for helping keep the momentum going.

It's not my imagination, is it? Aren't things getting more intense? With more direct and indirect reaction from M/EV? Are they running scared now, trying to hide even more seriously from scrutiny and responsibility?

I know, I know, it's just a feeling, probably because I'm reading here more than before, that I think this.

There just seems to be qualitative and quantitative upsurge lately, some verrrry powerful posts. No wonder there is excitement!

Best wishes,
C.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 14:58:43 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: MOMENTUM - yes, I agree
Message:
Also agree that there have been an increasing number of powerful posts on the forum lately - almost too many to read. Although some may disagree, I kinda like the 'BEST OF FORUM' tags because then I know which posts to read first.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 21:23:16 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Maybe it's just excitement at the MOMENTUM...Yes!
Message:
Hi Carl,

It's not your imagination at all. Many momentus events have lead to the current increase in hits on this website and forum, such as the appearance of Michael(s) Dettmers and Donner, Guy Rollins, of the DECA project, the meeting of Abi's father with maharaji, and now the articles and actions in France.

That maharaji was in the least inconvenienced (the French airport/customs scene) is proof that the squeaky wheels get greased. I worked around m for a year or so. I know how pissed off he gets to be inconvenienced, especially when it comes to his aircraft. I remember him giving false-sang about arguing with air traffic controllers about weather conditions and where he should land.

It's much more significant than most people would know. But I do, because I know what an OCD (Obessessive-Compulsive) and narcissistic personality he is. For him, it's my way or the highway.

As far as the Combat article is concerned, I'm sure he didn't just sit around and laugh. My guess is that he's been having way too many meetings with EV lawyers these days for his taste. He'd prefer to be playing with his expensive toys!

Be well,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:25:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: You've got to be kidding!
Message:
So much work has gone into developing and maintaining EPO, it's sincerely presumptuous to ask for more.

That's ridiculous! If it's so much work take on another volunteer assistant. That's all Katie was to begin with. Surely, the solution can't be to merely intimidate people into not even suggesting things. I agree completely that no one's got the right to demand anything here and yes, somehow, Brian -- and thus Brian and Katie -- now seem to 'own' EPO (although that was never the idea when Brian took over the helm). But is that really it? No more suggestions and go start your own? Hm, you know what they say about power ....

Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything but, really, isn't that a simple, practical solution? If it's workload that matters why not share it? There are more exes posting here than ever and I'm sure that there are more than a few capable, willing volunteers who're into programming or editing or whatever. Why foreclose the natural, gradual expansion and improvement of the site like this? Ask for volunteers and use them. Ask for suggestions, be open to suggestions and yeah, so long as you're doing the work, just use the ones you like. That's fair. But closing down communication like this is, in my apparently irrelevant opinion, wrong.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:22:58 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You've got to be kidding!
Message:
Maybe we should ask the true owner of ex-premie.org for his opinion. One doesn't need a professorship in Sherlock Holmesism to find out who that is. He's been very quiet since about 1997.
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 15:40:54 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: He's still around, Sir D
Message:
He recently helped us straighten out some issues regarding the domain name (not a big deal, but an administrative problem). He is very supportive, but just prefers to be 'quiet' as you said.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:59:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: You've got to be kidding!
Message:
Scott Perry, David Stirling and I put in the start-up money in equal parts. It wasn't much. We made all the initial decisions together. Scott didn't want to be further involved for various reasons and David took over the helm. He also dropped out and we needed a replacement. Brian was willing and able so he got the spot. He needed help and took Katie on as his assistant.

Since then much has happened obviously. Brian and Katie both put in tons of work developing the site. JM came on the scene and contributed all he did. Roger Drek took over briefly but threw his hands up and quit, understandably, when he couldn't shake Joey's paranoid accusations that he was somehow a 'cult operative'. Brian and Katie, to their credit, took the site back and have run it ever since. I imagine Brian's also put further money in, whether or not others have pitched in I can't say.

Legally, I'm sure, Brian owns the site. Just like Scott Perry did when he registered it in his name. However, David, Scott and I always considered between us that the site was something of community property for us at least but, more fully, for the ex community, as amorphous as that may be.

So, in terms of the true owner .... I don't know. You tell me.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 21:20:36 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You've got to be kidding!
Message:
The true owner is the name the domain is registered to. That would be the case, wouldn't it.
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:49:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: You've got to be kidding!
Message:
No, not necessarily. For example, when Scott, David Stirling and I started the site, it was in Scott's name. Was he the 'true owner'? We all thought we shared it. That's why we contributed equal parts financially and decided the initial set up together. That's why we decided jointly who would be the webmaster when Scott wanted out. That's why we decided together who would be webmaster when David wanted out. Somewhere along the line things changed, I guess.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:43:57 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Suggest all You Want! Jeezum Crow!
Message:
Jim,

Look, I'm not in the mood for a fight. I've been posting on and off here for quite a while and as more people come, more advice is given about how to improve EPO. Fine. I do think when new people come here and offer suggestions it's probably because they haven't researched the EPO site enough to know about links/pages which already exist.

Fine. If someone has suggestions that's fine, too. I've just been noticing that quite a few posters here having been making requests for new formats, links, adding new pages, and changing the EPO home page. I am a computer moron, so I don't know how reasonable or feasible these suggestions are in terms of workload. I can't even do a link into a message yet, so call me ignorant. Frankly, me dear, I don't give a rat's ass.

I am not into censorship, Jim and you know it. Anyone who has any suggestions are not being asked to muzzle themselves--that's ridiculous, and not what I meant. So I worded my sentence incorrectly. Sue me. I also don't believe that Katie and Brian ''own'' this site, either.

Please don't go over my post line by line, because I'm sick of that shit, too. I'm a bit tender lately, understand your points and hope you are well.

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:52:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynth, I love you. I'm just a line-by-line guy :)
Message:
Sorry about ruffling your feathers. Think I'll go kill myself. :)
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 21:01:38 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Love you too, Jim...I think I'm molting:)
Message:
never mind feathers in an uproar!

Just feeling sensitive these days, is all....

Love,
Cynth:)

P.S. Like I'd believe you'd ever kill yourself! LOLOL!!

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:32:03 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Boundaries
Message:
Sorry I have to say that it feels like there are some leakey boundaries here and there...
I'd say don't take it personal when someone makes a request I never pay attention to them but of course I am not an FA.
Don't feel obligated to do ANYTHING and you all will have a much better time.

Mercedes

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 00:21:48 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Mercedes
Subject: Boundaries
Message:
You're not addressing what Katie wrote, but rather questioning her right to say what she did:

Sorry I have to say that it feels like there are some leakey boundaries here and there

Katie's boundaries are apparently not something that you have any awareness of. She's earned the right to address those who use the forum as an EPO suggestion-box. If the FA's quit and JM doesn't want to do the work anymore, Katie will still be here. If nobody else contributes to the server costs, she and I will pay for it ourselves. We've made that commitment to this site.

I'd say don't take it personal when someone makes a request I never pay attention to them but of course I am not an FA.

This is the post-cult version of 'get over it'? It doesn't bother you personally, so those that are bothered shouldn't speak up?

Don't feel obligated to do ANYTHING and you all will have a much better time.

The site and forum exist because there are people who have felt, and continue to feel, obligated to do SOMETHING. And then there are those who post what the obligated should be obligated to do.

If we had a dollar for every suggestion ever posted on the forum that was unaccompanied by a willingness to volunteer to do the actual work required to impliment it, the forum would pay the server costs.

Katie felt 'obligated' to help with the work, to personally pay for what needed immediate payment, and to serve as FA. When the server costs next come due, they will be automatically charged to a credit card in her name - as they have repeatedly been in the past.

Every now and then people need to be reminded that browsing and posting are the fun parts. But they only exist within the boundaries of someone else feeling obligated to provide and maintain the swing-set.

You draw your own boundaries when you choose to not feel obligated. She's drawn hers elsewhere.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 14:50:11 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: It is clear to me...
Subject: Boundaries
Message:
...that I don't belong to the Mutal Admiration Club Brian.
Mercedes
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 19:47:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: you are not alone
Message:
no need to be upset, if you are. Why care if someone doesn't like your post? I really like Katie but you said what you felt and why shouldn't you? And there is a certain truth to it IMO, I mean how are people supposed to know they should not ask for changes or suggestions?

Selene - never an insider on EPO since 1998

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 15:45:24 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: I am sorry about that, Mercedes
Message:
Because I like your posts a lot.

One thing about posting on this forum though - it has made me come to terms with accepting the fact that some people just don't like me, and never will, no matter what. That has helped me.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 00:12:52 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Katie and Selene
Subject: TKU girls, love you n/t
Message:
yes
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:44:56 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Leaky boundaries...Mercedes...
Message:
Could you explain?

I'm not clear about your message.

Thanks.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 22:09:57 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Leaky boundaries...Mercedes...
Message:
Boundaries with holes in them. It felt to me that one Katie is not a FA nor she is JM and if they are not complaining why then. I don't know it felt whinny (sp?) to me. Just had to say it. It felt codependent. Anyway that was my take and no one has to agree with me.
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 00:35:04 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: not whiny to me, healthy
Message:
I disagree. I think Katie is setting her own boundaries in a healthy way by respectfully asking people to stop makng so many requests. If more people would do that, this would be a healthier world IMO.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 13:26:38 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Where's Waldo?
Message:
See if you can find him!
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:35:15 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Where's Waldo?
Message:
Is he the stupid prick in the bottom left-hand corner, the one with the silly cow-boy hat on and the ridiculous 70's shirt.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:52:44 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Too Funny! I almost pee my panties. ROFL NT
Message:
hahahha
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:15:53 (GMT)
From: piss artist?
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: there's a market for that
Message:
seriously

http://www.usedbrasandpanties.com/

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:45:54 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Where's Waldo?
Message:
Bottom left corner, I think, but your eyes are probably much better than mine now! ;-) What are all those over-baked Pillsbury doughboys doing with Waldo?

I hope that was an easy question that I answered! Do I win a prize if I'm right?

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:13:21 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Do you win?
Message:
yeah - the prize is to check out 'view all' on CD's 'Life's Great' forum!
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:30:29 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: What ... I missed an 'occulted' post there?
Message:
Or 'occult' prizes? Did someone let an occulted cat out of the bag? Of did I win another occulted holiday in a lift with a banana. (I prefermy occultish asparaguys! ;)

Yes, I found it thanks! Curiouser and curiouser!

(I was referring to your use of 'unexurgated'. ;-)

Did you catch Jim Boeger's post about how he didn't care if m fucked all the premies boys and girls? Another proud receiver of 'knowledge' and m's divine wisdom and grace. Never ceases to amaze me what people believe and say. What does he actually teach them anyways? (somewhat rhetorical question.) And how can any premie, or CD for that matter, remain actually 'proud' of themselves or their master after reading some of the insane posts of the premies there lately? Someone should forward their posts to Pia, but I'm sure they're not the kind she wants to display.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:25:17 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Blimey...just found Jim Boeger's post - SCANDAL!!!
Message:
Mr Boeger (who also posts as 'Jim' on the 'Life's Great' forum) said the following:

quote

'i couldn't care less if Maharaji fucked all the premie girls and boys who wanted him live on the television. there's nothing evil about sex........haven't we learned that yet? it's jealousy that's the enemy......of course, there's the STD issue, but that's another subject.'

endquote.

.
.
.
.

Live on television?

The same Maharaji (who according to Mr B's testimony hasn't even said the word 'sex' 'ever (sic) in almost 30 years'?)

And do you find it somewhat strange that two totally contradictory scenarios like that seem to hold no surprises for Mr B?

Do I detect another premie fundamentalist trying hard to pre-empt and attempt to justify any possible misdemeanor/crime that the Maha could possibly commit?

For premies like him, Maharaji can do no wrong. Regardless. And yet it's not a 'cult'???

Then why such cultish denial of responsibility AND accountability?

One things for sure, 'Life's Great' is a site where the many varieties of premie mentality are certainly coming out of the woodwork. And how!

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 13:07:46 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Use of pseudonyms on Forum V
Message:
I thought I saw a trend towards the use of real names and full real names in the last few weeks, but in the last few days it seems as if the use of pseudonyms and new pseudonyms has increased, almost exploded.

I used to laugh when Bazza used to say to people using pseudonyms 'I don't talk to hand puppets'.

Come on guys, grow up. It's the 21'st century and we're trying to promote reality here, aren't we?

Steve

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:39:41 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Anyone want to comment why you use aliases?
Message:
I actually like the use of 'handles' because they are a very creative way of individualizing your reaction towards this whole thing.

But I don't understand why anyone would uhide behind them. What are the possible concerns? comments?

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:31:04 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Thank you, Steve for mentioning reality
Message:
I know 8 of the regular anonymous posters by email. I would never reveal their names. That's their business. I don't even want to know their reasons for anonymity. That's their choice.

I've mentioned to all of them that the price that they pay for anonymity is that they will garner less trust and respect and may also feel more defensive and paranoid as a direct result. But that really is their decision.

I am not into demanding anything from anybody but I do make requests. My request is that people be as real with me as I am with them.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:22:36 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: PatC
Subject: Thank you, Steve for mentioning reality
Message:
My request is that people be as real with me as I am with them.

Ditto for me.

Steve

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:46:46 (GMT)
From: Hate ji (Bob)
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Use of pseudonyms on Forum V
Message:
Im probably not creative enough to think of original pseudonyms but some times I do enjoy reading them. I do not enjoy premies changing pseudonyms, I understand they feel pressure to not reveal their identity, but they are guests here and should not be playing games! (So stick to one identity)

For the rest : the forum is great lately!!!

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:37:58 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Hate ji (Bob)
Subject: Clueless, Sonata, Piss Artist - who the fuck are
Message:
these anonymice!
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 05:33:07 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: FA, your double STANDARS suck!!! NT
Message:
aha!
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 19:42:19 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: FA, your double STANDARDS suck!!! NT
Message:
Silvia,

There are no double standards here. Tell me who has been treated any differently than you were? In particular, as you post this one liner in this thread, who in this thread has been treated differently to you?

I'd like to publicly state that I think it's time you stopped this infantile vendetta.

Forum Admin

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 21:08:44 (GMT)
From: PatC as Mrs Robinson
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: ...and now Liz Smith and Mr Anderson. Yoohoo FA!
Message:
There are enough anonymous spammers here without regulars being allowed to adopt multiple aliases without being shamed into compliance.

At least I sign my name after channeling one of my ''aspects.''

Anonymous spamming is sophomoric.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:25:51 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: PatC as Mrs Robinson
Subject: Liz Smith is real
Message:
Hi Pat,

I share your general opinion of aliases used (as Jim put it) 'as a weapon and a shield', or to basically avoid the reality of their social interactions.

However, I'd better add that to the best of my Knowledge, Liz Smith is a very real person - or if she isn't she has spent several years impersonatating one with plausible biographical detail. (Say it aint' so Liz - tell me you ARE real...)

Don't know about 'clueless' but he/she (oops, 'she/he') sounds like a friend in disguise.

As for Moldy Warp... that's her real name. Honestly! Well that's what she tells me, so that's what I call her ;)

Nige who once joined a cult and can therefore believe anything...

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:34:46 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Liz Smith is a real Hollywood gossip columnist
Message:
I think this Liz was being channelled by a regular for a laugh posing as the Hollywood gossip. And I know Moldy is warped but she's also mad.

Glad to hear your news and that it is not too horrendous. I guess Moldy's daughter will be drinking gin-and-t's (quinine is not nearly as hallucinogenic as the man-made anti-malarials) for the rest of her life. It was such a treat to talk to you guys on the phone. Love to both of you.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:11:01 (GMT)
From: NIgel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: It must be a fairly common name...
Message:
..and not the Liz I thought it was. Glad you clarified that. Guess that reinforces the whole point about sticking to a single alias when posting here, even when your posts are friendly.

(It was great to speak to you, too, Pat. And yeah, we WILL do San Fran one of these days, I am sure.)

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 21:51:14 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: And I love your various channels, Patsy.....:) n/t
Message:
fucking urug
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 08:47:29 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: ''Aspects'' dahling! Why do people use aliases?
Message:
I haven't got a clue which is why one reason is as good as another to me and I don't condemn anyone for making that choice. One of the reasons that I play with different characters is to make fun of the anonymous spammers but I always sign it with my name because it's only mischief not malice or a hidden agenda.

But those of us who know each other and don't indulge in deceitful anti-social persona switching games seem to enjoy the forum a whole lot more than the more paranoid of the anonymice.

Geez, my supermarket knows more about me than my own mother. I guess the net will always be plagued by anonymous spammers thinking that they're making an impression when all they come off as is sleezy.

PS And I'm not talking about regulars who post under handles. I'm talking about malicious spammers.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 06:11:26 (GMT)
From: The Questioning Angel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Love Marks
Message:
My life coach tells me that the giants of modern marketing are moving away from Branding (product placement is too jejeuene for the sophisticated, cynical consumer) to Love Marks.

When the billboards come down and Nike owns the actual street they were on, Love Marks will be symbols of a culture, not brands within it. Cultures are made up of symbolic exchanges, n'est-ce pas?

Love Marks seek to have a 'relationship' with the consumer. They reach out to touch the reptilian brain, engendering emotions rather than appeals to the logical left hemisphere. Establishing a Love Mark goes as far as Disney establishing a 20,000 person town called 'Celebration' - a walk-in product! The Brand is now The Culture; there is no differentiation, true believers.

Are there parallels with the marketing efforts of PSR?

Are the techniques a marketing method to stimulate the part of the temporal lobe which causes/mimics religious experience? Does the Culture/Brand change in order to be able to meet the demands of the more sophisticated Seeker/Consumer?

Was the first ever guru in history influenced by a rave from an ad executive from Saatchi & Saatchi sent back through time from December 23, 2012?

If premies could not be regarded as Love Marks, could they be regarded as Love Narks?

Are we the Culture Jammers?

Just do it!

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 00:52:06 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: Love Marks
Message:
Commercials and ads seem so schizophrenic today. One moment, there are slow motion nature shots and then the characters in the commercial are shown living in a sort of hyper techno way. Are they (advertisers) trying to put their love marks on me--ewww??!

Seriously, where did you read this stuff about love marks? It seems very true to me.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:11:26 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: Love Marks - in the cold light of morning
Message:
PSR uses market researchers to find his potential victims and has thus gone into the televangelist business. His market is made up of sluggish couch potatoes with the self-motivation of a lump of lead and the analytical skills of an amoeba.

But I would still like to see you describe ''Love Marks'' in a simpler and more serious way as I am unfamiliar with marketing jargon. Just a little less purple prose and more pedestrian explanations. But I did catch your drift.

Also your joke about time travel will alienate most of us old fogeys here until they thoroughly understand your sense of humor.

So what the hell are ''Love Marks?'' And tell me a bit more about yourself please.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 00:30:49 (GMT)
From: The Questioning Angel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Love Marks - in the cold light of morning
Message:
Purple? Moi?

'Love Marks' is just a fancy name bandied about by a Saatchi & Saatchi executive for Branding. For more on branding, go to www.brandinstitute.com. The point is, as always, marketing will continue to become more and more psychologically sophisticated in order to slip under the guard of the potential consumer.

Old fogeys alienated by time travel? Dr Who has been around since the early 1960s. December 23, 2012, is the date on the Mayan calendar when the world is supposed to undergo a radical shift. Psychotropic visionary Terence McKenna was fond of explaining that that was when the self-creating machine elves would take over. When I asked him in an interview if he thought this was real or just a metaphor, he prevaricated, but I suspect he was just trying to impress the dance party crowd.

As to the Questioning Angel, he (not a she as you have earlier assumed, PatC) is just another pseudonym in a pseudonymous sea of nomena. I'm just a cypher in cyberspace. (Sounds like a show tune from South Pathetic.)

Am I being pedestrian enough? Or is something else afoot?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:41:04 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: You interviewed Terence McKenna ?
Message:
Don't tell me you're that famous radio interviewer (name withheld)? Hey if you are - love the show - and the McKenna interview is available online..the one where he talks about time travel being invented in 2012 and the Universe completing it's journey in a millisecond, or some brain-crushing idea along those lines.

Was that your interview? Wow!

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 02:54:02 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: I guess you don't want me to get to know you then
Message:
Pity.
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:16:03 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: M has his Love Marks too
Message:
Maharaji really knows this marketing stuff well, don't you think? He's prettied knowledge up to appeal to a sophisticated audience that doesn't want to throw itself face first into the dirt to kiss his feet. No, we are too cool and hip for that today. He is the master of packaging and continually reconstituting knowledge to the consumers of today. But he'll sneak in a little darshan for the old-timers, here and there, he will change his stripes to keep the money flowing.

He knows that customer loyalty means that the customer must identify with the logos and the packaging. He's kept up with the times, the busy people of today just have to keep in touch and see a video event once in a while, and send in the money. Before one was supposed to make a sacrifice, throw themselves at this feet. Sophisticated premies of today don't have time for that nonsense. See, it's all abotu marketing.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:02:47 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: televangelist business
Message:
Why didn't I see that one? And then they could do a Home Shopping Network thing and infomercials for those 'just breathe' watches. By george, I think you've got it. But several of those guys got in trouble (Bakker, Swaggart) for their porcine ways. But they also had way bigger churches than Rawat.

Remember when Jerry Fallwell was picking on the Teletubby, Tinky Winky? One cartoon showed Tiny Winky with the word: Teletubby. The other showed Fallwell with the words: Tubby Televangelist.

Couldn't resist that one. I guess my analogy of his speaking delivery with a used car salesman on a cheezily produced ad on late night television or some rinky dink local station is closer to the mark than I thought.
love, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:19:05 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Yep, Rawat's the new Telly Tubby
Message:
but not the purple one because as Falwell said everyone knows that queers wear purple. Maybe he'll wear red with a little Krishan crown.

Francesca, that was the first thing I thought about when the satellite broadcasts were announced. He's about to pitch his spchiel to the couch potatoes who will buy Remember to Breathe watches by the dozen and little old ladies who send one dollar a month. It all adds up when you have an audience in the tens of thousands. Rev Feelgood Rawat the Telly Tubby.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 15:04:58 (GMT)
From: Kalle Lasn
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: Love Marks
Message:
The irony of Miragey is that he's a better consumer than he is a marketer. How about Love Shark?
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 05:09:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Springtime in Paris - bootstrap emotions
Message:
Here's Maharaji in Paris a few weeks ago. No, not sweating it out at the airport trying to evade the authorities (not to mention his past and the truth) but talking to the good members of his congregation.

There are people who think if we had the power to turn something into gold, that would be incredible. But that's nothing compared to a more amazing power than that, and one we do have - the power of appreciation. That's an incredible power, an unbelievable power. Take a sunset. The sun sets, it does its thing, and it doesn't care about anybody. It doesn't even know there are people on the Earth. But yet someone is on this Earth who can look at it and say, 'That's magnificent.' The sky is blue - for whatever the reason is, it's blue. But then, for somebody to look at it and say, 'That's beautiful,” it takes appreciation.

Without appreciation what have we got? Without appreciation, we would wake up and some time later we would go to sleep, and that would be it. Our life would have been nothing But with the gift of appreciation, the ability to admire, there is a difference. Because of that, there's nobody on Earth who doesn't want to live longer. However long you live, it isn't enough. It doesn't matter if you live for a hundred years, another ten would be great.

What Maharaji's done to emotions is just crazy. This idea that you can plaster them on like this is amazing. When we came to the cult, at least back in the '70s, the whole idea was that you simply went to the magic well inside, got blasted by the supposed beauty of your soul (i.e. Maharaji within) and then, as a natural consequence, experienced bliss. Plain and simple.

Now, though, it's as if he's forgotten all that and is trying to get his puppies to simply pretend they're happy, pretend they're in some deep state of something or other. Here he calls it 'appreciation'.


And now, the question becomes: what is worth appreciating? What is there in this world that I can really appreciate? Not dreams, not fantasies, but something real. And not something that I can just appreciate for one, two or three days only. But something I can appreciate to my very last breath. Everything else - even my ability to be able to speak, to be able to look around, to be able to do things - goes away. We can think of all the things we have done we feel pleased about, but is that it? Just our actions? Or, is there another miracle taking place? Another miracle taking shape, another miracle happening within me that I am not even aware of.

This is a complete abdication of the whole idea of Knowledge, fraudulent as it was. Maharaji himself would have laughed at this kind of bootstrap happiness back when I first got involved.
It's madness. Only a cult could accomodate such an about face without explanation or even acknowledgment.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:59:43 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: More like Springtime for Hitler
Message:
Just had to put that in. I just got the soundtrack to 'The Producers' and it's really great. Several new songs added to those in the original movie version. The only problem is 'Springtime for Hitler' is going through my head all day. I would greatly APPRECIATE being able to see that Broadway Show, but who gets to New York anymore?

I guess 'appreciation' is another of those loaded cultwords. Why you need knowledge to appreciate things makes no sense. In fact, I think I appreciate life a whole lot more since I quite being a schizophrenic premie at war with my own mind. Another thing Maharaji said:

Our life would have been nothing But with the gift of appreciation, the ability to admire, there is a difference. Because of that, there's nobody on Earth who doesn't want to live longer. However long you live, it isn't enough. It doesn't matter if you live for a hundred years, another ten would be great.

Maharaji seems to have forgotten the many of his followers who have committed suicide over the years, a few of whom I knew personally. Somehow, despite having the gift of appreciation, they didn't want to 'live longer.' What about them, Maharaji, you imbecilic bastard?

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 03:53:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Living longer
Message:
And all I could think about was people wasting away of cancer and AIDS. At some point, they don't want to live another day. They want to get on with it.

He makes a BIG DEAL about appreciation. A BIG DEAL about the obvious. Then insinuates that most people (making them the special ones again, the wise ones) are too stupid to see what's under their nose. Arrogance is the one thing he's never revised. This is new age bullcrap at its finest.

--f

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:59:58 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Joe
Subject: More like Springtime for Heller
Message:
I was paging the forum and thought I saw 'Springtime For Heller'!

Steve

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 10:00:25 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mr. Williams should read this-nt
Message:
asdf
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 07:17:29 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Springtime in Paris - bootstrap emotions
Message:
Jim:

How is this different from the standard 'the-world-is-so-beautiful-but-it's-only-a-reflection-so-appreciate-the-permanent' rigmarole? Looks like the same crap he's been saying for decades to me.

I mean, if Knowledge *is* permanent, the experience sure doesn't hang around very long, and it's not nearly as interesting as a good bike race. The Andromeda Galaxy is more or less permanent, but it's not very tempting to stand around and watch it all day. The number '2' is *really* permanent (yawn). Geez, this guy has never had an original thought in his life.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:47:12 (GMT)
From: MW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Springtime in Paris - bootstrap emotions
Message:
I mean, if Knowledge *is* permanent, the experience sure doesn't hang around very long, and it's not nearly as interesting as a good bike race.....

Your opinion and experience; glad you could be honest; not my opinion or experience. The fact that I consider Knowledge to be the central pleasure in and anchor of my life, and you obviously don't, in your own picturesque and eloquent words, IMO has everything to do with my regard for the master and your lack thereof.

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Date: Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 08:58:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: MW
Subject: Probably ''Mr Williams'' aping Catweasel
Message:
whose last incarnation here was CW. CW goes and MW arrives. Wanna bet the next thing MW says is that he does not like EV and has never been into the cultish aspects but just loves M and K?
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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 21:32:32 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: 'MW' is NOT 'Moldy Warp' (FA, please note...)
Message:
Could it be 'CW'?

Whoever you are, please use a different alias to avoid any more confusion than is already apparent in your post. Thanks.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:05:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: No, Scott, there's a BIG difference
Message:
Sorry, Scott, but there's a BIG difference here. Really, it's quite amazing when you think about it. Back in the beginning, say, '71 through to '76, the pitch was this: surrender your mind through satsang, service and meditation and you will then be filled with bliss. You don't shoot for bliss directly. You don't try to cultivate it any other way. You cdrtainly don't try to merely affect it. That would be ass-backwards. It would be fake. Indeed, it would be completely unnecessary and beside the point as there already was an infinite supply of bliss (or peace, joy, whatever) within, you just had to drill for it.

Thus, Maharaji's answer to anything and everything was the same: meditate. If you wanted more understanding, you didn't try to have more understanding. That was impossible. Rather, all you had to understand was the one simple direction, meditate, meditate, meditate, fill your life with nothing but mindless devotional efforts through satsang, meditation and service and the rest would come automatically. You didn't focus on your emotions, you didn't try to capture them, train them, clean them up or anything. You just meditated and surrendered and that was that.

Ok, so that was the same basic program Shri Hans used to teach only he naturally invoked the whole hindu context it emereged from to complete the picture. Maharaji took the 'meditate-and-see' aspect of the faith to a new, minimalist extreme. At first he gave similar answers as did his daddy about life and the universe but soon he jettisoned them all in favour of that one simple edict. My guess is that he did this because it was a lot easier way to field all the questions he faced in the west than to try to trot out the whole hindu mythology. He did try that at first, take a look at his earliest satsangs where he tries to explain karma and the like.

His mother and eldest brother were more comfortable dealing in that currency and they never stopped. They had the hindu rap down better than Maharaji, perhaps just because they were older. But Maharaji reduced things to their simplest terms those first years in the west. Satsang, service and meditation. He just hammered that into us, thee was really nothing else to talk about. In fact the only other thing he did really talk about with any regularity was how necessary it was to be open minded to the possibilty that all life's problems could be solved so simply, that one didn't need to understand shit, one only needed to find the true guru and surrender one's mind to him via ... satsang, service and meditation.

As all '70s era premies or students of this cult's history know, Maharaji ran into a real problem in '75 and '76. He'd jettisoned so much hindu structure, premies were pardoxiaclly finding more room than anyone knew what do to with for thinking for themselves again. By his direction, we'd stopped trying to be hindu yogis but, seeing as none of us had ever accomplished the real goal Knowledge was given us for, what Maharaji used to call 'realizing Knowledge', i.e. merging into the infinite state of Satchitanand, we weren't sure where to put our hands. In our laps? By our sides? We didn't know what to do with our identities and no number of workshops or orgnizational flow charts could resolve that confusion.

So in the end of '76, at the international co-ordinators conference in Essen, Germany, Maharaji changed gears dramatically. He'd already shaken off his family, got his then-gorgeous bride, got what he wanted from the world free of whatever hindu spiritual restrictions that he might have otherwise faced had he stayed closer to his father's script. Now it was time to renew the devotional theme underlying all this stuff. Of course, cowardly asshole that he is, completely bereft of any sense of personal accountability, Maharaji blamed us for losing focus, for forgetting about 'surrender' and the like. In truth, he himself had encouraged us to cast off as much hindu shit as we could, starting as far back as the summer of '74 when he first introduced his wife, Durga Ji, Goddess of Love, to the masses.

Anyway, Maharaji now hit us over the head with devotion and now, as far as I can tell, for the first time, he started focussing on how we should feel. It was no longer enough to simply urge us to 'meditate and see'. Instead, we had to cultivate a certain emotional life, a certain mind-set. Sadly for us, that first emotion he asked us to muster wasn't 'appreciation', it was shame! We'd wandered from the path, a fact he tortured us with for years, and now could no longer trust ourselves in any way whatsoever. None of us were sincere. Sincerity was beyond our reach. It was something we should pray for because, as we'd proven in spades, we'd never get it otherwise. Our minds were wretched. Tricky beyond imagination. We were no match for them. There was no point simply doing satsang, service and meditation any longer, as the mind was more than capable of somehow simultating an entire false 'experience'. No, all we could was pray to Maharaji to save us. Pray, weep and shiver prostrate on the cold, temple floor before his altar.

The '70s was perhaps the last period in the cult in which people still thought in terms of actually 'realizing Knowledge' or 'realizing God', same thing. Yes, we needed to pray but it was still just to clear the runway so we could take off again. We still believed that the real emotions we sought were all contained in the mythical state of Satchitanand. Maharaji was there 24/7/forever and meditation was still the vehicle that would take us there too.

Okay, that's when I left. Split the ashram in '80 or '81 (can never figure that out) and became a decidedly skeptical premie n L.A. where I moved, going to the occasional satsang, meeting and befriending a couple of premies and basically working my way out over the next year or so.

Fast forward tweny years and what's going on? 'Meditate and see', the most basic ideology of this supposedly 'concept-free' spiritual practise was lost forever. In fact the very notion of realizing God seems to be as well. Gone is any suggestion that emotions are by nature constantly changing and far too ephemeral to put any real stock in. Instead, Maharaji's created this perverse religion where his teaching is all about two things: shutting out questions, complexity anything by listening to one's breath (forget about following this or any of the other meditation techniques to any particular destination) and cultivating nice, gooey emotions on demand. It's perversely evocative of some of Maharaji's own parables back in the day. For example, the one about the deer that searches madly for the musk it's actually smelling from its own 'belly'. Or the crow that dives for the necklace but it's only a reflection in the water.

Maharaji would have laughed harder than anyone at the fool he's become, even on hindu guru terms, after all this time. Maybe his own lost, alcohol-soaked life made it too hard to even nominally tout the 'golden path' of which he's supposedly the master and guardian. Maybe the hypocrisy of advocating a spiritual discipline he lost all sense of made even him a bit unconfortable. Maybe, in all his excess, he just plain forgot. Whatever the reason, it's all inverted now. If it was weird before -- alll that transcend-your-personal-ego-and-give-your mind-to-me shit -- it's even weirder now. True, it's not as dramatic. What could ever match the idea of merging one's identity with your guru who happens to be God in human form? But in some ways it's even more stifling. If Maharaji's taken over the emotional realm, where can premies ever enjoy any real spontaneity and honesty in their minds? They're on constant call to feel 'appreciation' etc. Too bad, isn't it?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 03:53:03 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I don't get it.
Message:
Jim:

I re-read it and while he seems to be promoting appreciation as an objective, and then suggesting that there's only one thing *worth* appreciating... that doesn't seem too radical a departure from his prior bullshit. It's similar to what some of the new churces say about 'gratitude' for instance. I mean, he woke up to the fact that humans have emotions and feelings and you can address those directly. So that's a BIG difference? I mean, it's not like I was ever paying attention in the first place. His 'philosophy' never made the slightest sense to me. I never had any great discussions with Mike in the QP (Quality Pie Shop) about the details of Maharaji's philosophy or advice, for instance. There was also, no doubt, a certain amount of mild ethnic superiority at play, or something. I just assumed that he had some sort of deep philosophy that he wasn't able to communicate because of the fact that he didn't know any words longer than one syllable. I always had a vague feeling that there was something I was supposed to be doing, or some way I was supposed to behave, but never identified the lapse. If I was supposed to take the details seriously I guess I'm glad I spaced it out.

I did put a great deal of effort, prior to that, into trying to understand the infinitesimal details of Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Science, but I generated a lot more heat than light as a result of that struggle, and by the time I took up with Maharaji I guess I was plumb tuckered out with the effort.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 04:23:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Okay, Scott, I'll try again -- but it's so simple!
Message:
Scott,

Early 70s: Maharaji laughed at human efforts to try to capture positive feelings or emotions. This was futile, he said, because a) emotions are ephemeral, etc. and b) the 'real' emotion one wanted was bliss / devotion which was only accessible through 'realizing Knowledge'.

'75 - '76: Maharaji tinkered with taking this philosophy to the extreme, relished in his abandonment of hindu religious trappings and affections.

'77 to early '80s: Maharaji reels premies back in, imposes heavy guilt trips about the mind and devotion and, for the first time, focusses premies on how they should think and feel before they attempt to access the supposedly enlightened state of Satchitanand. Suddenly, it wasn't cool to simply enjoy whatever feelings naturally arose from the meditation. A good premie was a shameful premie.

Now: Maharaji's bent on plastering freeze-framed happy faces on his flock. Gone are the days of 'meditate and see'. It's all ass-backward.

Scott, I don't know how I could make it any clearer. Maybe you disagree with me for some reason. I'd love to hear why if you do. This 'great insight' of mine hasn't exactly sparked a storm of conversation. But I think it's kind of neat and would love to talk about it further even if it's with someone who doesn't know what I'm talking about!

:)

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 22:48:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, here's an example
Message:
Here's a new Expression from ELK that proves my point:

Choosing what we feel

Given the choice between words of doubt and anger (which bring hurt and emptiness)
or the feeling I find in myself (which brings me peace)
I'll choose love every time.

There are people who surrender only to their confusion, feeding others doubt.
What do they have to offer? Nothing worth having. Why surrender to that which has no love in it?)

Want to call my joy an 'illusion?' Want to call this breath a ruse? Go ahead, do your
best. I'll choose love every time.

Charles Glasser
New York, USA

The whole notion of 'choosing what we feel' would have been anethmatic to premies in the old days. It would have smacked of churchy and decidedly futile effort to put the cart before the horse. No, back then, it would have been 'mediate, go inside, and let the wellspring of bliss take you over'. The choice was to meditate, not to FEEL something.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 22:50:19 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: TKU Jim, Brilliant!!!!
Message:
great
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:11:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, FA, could you please fix this?
Message:
I only wanted to embolden 'us', not the rest.

Thanks a lot.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:30:18 (GMT)
From: FA
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: (Sigh)going to have to start charging for this! nt
Message:
lnlv
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:42:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: No, wait! I kind of liked it all bold like that
Message:
Maybe if we put the couch over here .... no, thanks :)
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:22:16 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But you have ''emboldened us'' with this
Message:
brilliant deconstruction. Thanks, Jim. That was like a tonic. I feel much stronger.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:17:00 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What the bastard said
Message:
This is what I posted on CD's Lifes (sic) Great forum. I put it below because CD may delete it on his forum:

I am fortunate enough to have a very good memory for words and phrases.

Maharaji was talking about a premie who was dying. An old man, who was near to death. Maharaji had graced him with his presence and Maharaji said that the man was too weak to speak so he just held his hand.

OK, sounds fine so far. And then Maharaji twisted the event round into something horrible, for he said (about the dying premie):

'He wasn't just about to go and get into some kind of a sex trip!'

I think if the dying premie had been able to witness Maharaji turning around a personal event like this to make it something nasty and full of guilt - that dying man would have been apalled.

I have been with dying people and the thought of using such an event in the way Maharaji did then is unthinkable.

But Maharaji is a very nasty little man who doesn't live by the standards of most people. He who asked Michael Dettmers to get premie women for him to sleep with for one night stands and then discard them - he is a foul mouthed hypocrite and out of his mouth comes pure poison that has a stink that contaminates anyone who listens to him.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:00:35 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: What the bastard said
Message:
A real bastard. I remember two stories he told in the late 90s about ''granting'' dying premies with his presence.

The first took place in India. Rawat said a premie man was dying of cancer and asked to see m before he died (so he could thank m for everything). So rawat granted his wish. M said that they met, and he was absolutely destitute, torn clothes, and didn't even have a watch!!!, but cried in gratitude to m for giving him such a wonderful life!!!

The second story was about a dying premie who was in a hospital and made a request to see m before he died. M said he went there, but then m said he ''thought'' that the guy had already died!, and said something to the effect that because the guy was dead, he (M) felt nothing!!! Blaa blaa, the essence was gone!

What an unfeeling, narcissistic bastard!

I, too, have been around dying people a couple of times, not until the end of their lives, but close. I certainly wouldn't notice shallow things like if the person had a watch! M seems to think poverty is good, as long as he's not in it!!.

What a creep!

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 17:06:18 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: 'I'm glad to happened to him instead of me'
Message:
'I'm glad to happened to him instead of me.'
-- Prem Rawat

Rawat, within the last two years, recounted going to a hospital to see a 'good friend' of his, but got there after he died. Rawat said

'Do you know what I thought? Do you know what I thought? I thought 'I'm glad to happened to him instead of me.''

No comment necessary.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 10:55:30 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Freudian Slip. I remember it and tried to live it!
Message:
sorry no text
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 11:03:51 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: TO Bryn OT
Message:
Hi Bryn, Did you live in Leeds in 1978/79?
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 23:39:28 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Jethro
Subject: Hi Jethro - ot
Message:
Hi Jethro, and Barbara too. How are things with both of you?

Love, Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:25:24 (GMT)
From: Bryndavies
Email: Bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: Jethro
Subject: Yes that was me.Email me and reveal all. nt
Message:
fggfg
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:27:50 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: If I could have been a fly on the wall,what an....
Message:
interesting time it would have been, when someone at EV had to interpret the Combat article to maharaji.

Think about it:

Obviously, maharaji would want to know EXACTLY what was in that Combat article.
Every last allegation.
Being written only in French, some poor soul HAD to be given the 'service' of doing the translation for maharaji.

Somehow, all of that information eventually had to be relayed to maharaji.
He would want to know EVERYTHING, so that he could understand what he's up against, and how to hide.

I wonder who ran the 'briefing'.
I wonder how they felt...before and after it.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:56:30 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: What a DIVINE service.....
Message:
When are the rest of the premies going to wake up! Papa is CRAZY girls and boys. That is the end of the story. RUN AWAY!!! Free yourselves!

thanks la ex.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:26:51 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Worcester Mass. Event
Message:
I don’t know if Elan Vital has made it 'Official' or not, the invitation of The Guru Maharaji to the Town of Worcester, Massachusetts. I know there was a rumour started by David (C?)Something-or-other, espousing the fact of an unconfirmed visit to the New England area. So in case an event is scheduled, I have contacted some local and regional media folk, some of which have expressed some interest in possibly covering the event. The Massachusetts area has recently been rocked by a local Religious Sect (CULT) who had starved two children to death, so they take this stuff pretty serious in these parts.

My letter to them basically detailed some historic facts about the FatOne and linked them to the appropriate parts of this site (articles, journeys, etc.). One reporter was amazed at the amount of research compiled here.

I have listed the email addresses of the local and regional reporters below. If everyone takes a minute to cut and past these addresses to an email(CC or BCC) and create an email about one aspect of the cult and send it out to them I think they may be stimulated to pursue the matter. There are so many aspects about this cult to choose from; the recent debacle at the French airport, Jagdeo, Indian Bicyclist, Blondes, Drinking. Keep the story short (so that they will read it) and simple with a link to an appropriate page here, or to this site in general, I believe if the reporters get inundated with enough stories about the Cult Leader coming to their town, they may follow up with their interest and investigate the matter further and possibly give LardButt some coverage.

I also invite you premie lurkers out there. Feel free to write them about how this site is a bunch of hate filled loosers, and send them links to Your Lard’s site, Pia’s site and EV’s site. Would'nt want them to have an unbalanced, biased look at the man whose feet you get on your knees to kiss. I do believe that any good reporter would appreciate more than one side to the story (and I am a firm believer in free speech). Be sure to send some pictures of M, like the one of him in that pajama suit used to wear with the Rhinestone Bishop’s Cap. Maybe tell them not to go to the links of articles written by Rolling Stone, Penthouse, Combat or any other half-assed local rag, publication.

Here are the email addresses of the local and regional media outlets:

feedback@phx.com; allen@globe.com; arnold@globe.com; d_bailey@globe.com; cbeggy@globe.com; a_berger@globe.com; p_bouknight@globe.com; bradlee@globe.com; g_buell@globe.com; p_canellos@globe.com; chandler@globe.com; g_cook@globe.com; a_dabilis@globe.com; b_daley@globe.com; w_doherty@globe.com; ebbert@globe.com; farragher@globe.com; gagen@globe.com; l_harmon@globe.com; j_hart@globe.com; a_haywoode@globe.com; jackson@globe.com; jacoby@globe.com; rkahn@globe.com; kurkjian@globe.com; f_latour@globe.com; a_lessels@globe.com; t_long@globe.com; d_macgillis@globe.com; b_macquarrie@globe.com; c_mansbach@globe.com; bmooney@globe.com; smurphy@globe.com; pnealon@globe.com; g_negri@globe.com; newsom@globe.com; nyhan@globe.com; tpalmer@globe.com; m_pritchard@globe.com; rakowsky@globe.com; ribadeneira@globe.com; wrobinson@globe.com; lshea@globe.com; ssnyder@globe.com; trausch@globe.com; turner@globe.com; vennochi@globe.com; d_warren@globe.com; wen@globe.com; jo_williams@globe.com; s_wilmsen@globe.com; wong@globe.com; feedback@bostonherald.com; providence-feedback@phx.com; p&j@phx.com; pjnews@projo.com; pjfeat@projo.com; massbureau@projo.com; dnjnsn2000@yahoo.com; png@riguild.org; pstanton@wpltd.com; jforts@wbjournal.com; sjd@wbjournal.com; cpappas@wbjournal.com; ehilow@wbjournal.com; kciottone@wbjournal.com; newstips@telegram.com; hwhitin@telegram.com; llamson@telegram.com; jsacks@telegram.com; dwilliamson@telegram.com; jdempsey@telegram.com

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:06:00 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Worcester Mass. Event
Message:
Thank you for your efforts jondon. I am saving the addresses, have this thing about Worcester.

But I want to wait if possible to see if and when it is confirmed. I hope someone will keep us posted.
Thank you again.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:32:03 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Worcester Mass. Event/ FA--an idea for EPO--
Message:
Just an idea, for the online 'activists' out there in cyberspace...

Could posts like Jondons be given a special place on EPO, so that interested parties could reference it at any time and send a few e-mails when they have a few minutes?

Each program could have a current list of media personnel to contact.
If that informations was in the same place, it might make the job easier and more accessible to anyone who wants to help in that way....

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 13:34:46 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: La-ex - this is time-sensitive information
Message:
And, as such, probably doesn't belong on EPO.

I appreciate your point about having this available at a glance, but any page with this kind of information probably should go onto a site where someone is willing to update material quite frequently.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:13:02 (GMT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The many faces of denial, part two....
Message:
A number of people expressed interest in my letters to EV and their response, or non-response.
Also, what were the reactions of people that I knew, in regard to my letters....how did they effect people around me...

First of all, I wrote the letters simply because I wish that someone had written me those letters a number of years ago.
Actually, I wish I had known more about many of the 'inner workings' a long, long time ago, as I would have seriously re-assessed my position and feelings about maharaji.
Also,I especially wish someone had brought this stuff out before I started to put on video programs at my house.

The reactions were varied, but one common theme has emerged: no one has really sat down with me and asked me to explain any more of the details, or has wanted to know anything further about all of this stuff.

A few close friends told me the letters were 'disturbing', and wanted to sit down with me for a long, long 'heart to heart' talk about 'everything'.
None of them ever ventured forward for the 'long, long talk.'

A few people have given me long, hard stares in town.
Some of them have tried to hide the stare behind a smile, but it's kind of like that thing we used to say when we were kids:
If you're happy, I guess you forgot to tell your face. (something like that)
In other words, behind that smile, is one pissed off premie.

I was told that the letters might create confusion in the community, but fortunately the resident instructor was there to 'de-confuse' anyone who might have the need.
A number of the 'quieter' types, gave me surprising calls in which they expressed to me that they had heard a few of the stories before, and now they believed that they were probably true.
They indicated they were in a 'holding pattern', as to their involvement, awaiting further word from the establishment.(good luck on that one...)

A number of people contacted me because they are 'lurkers' on EPO, but don't post.
Nice connections from the past.
Interesting to see the power of the internet in action.

One local friend, after yelling at me for about 15 minutes,finally told me: 'Because of you, I have to live with the fact that it could all be true!'

He said that if this stuff was true,maharaji's work was over...finished in the US.
And that he would leave him.

I wondered why, if it was all that important, he didn't find out the facts, and make that decision.
He replied that Donner/Dettmers etc. were liars, and they were probably upset that maharaji had fired them for some reason.
And therefore, no need to go further down that road.

It's here that I began to understand part of the current strategy that is taking hold.
You don't ask what the truth is.
You ask 'who do you believe?'
'Maharaji, the perfect master, or these guys?'

The question is not 'What is the truth?'.
It's framed as 'Who are you gonna believe?'
'Your master, or some pissed off premie with an ax to grind that wants to bring him down?'

It was also expressed by many that there is no way any of the more scandalous stuff could be verified, so they were backing the PM,not the ex-premie version.

Many people said that if it is true, they will leave.
However, they seemed to have little or no interest in answering any of these questions, and finding out if it is true or not.

When I asked the question 'How can maharaji say he never presented himself as a messianic figure?', when he so clearly did for over a decade, many people said that they never heard him say that he was the lord.(?)
I asked one friend, who I sang arti with every morning and night for 3 years about this.
She said that she never heard maharaji refer to himself as 'Lord'.
When I reminded her about the arti line 'Our Lord is the superior power in person', she said 'Oh...well,that's interesting, but why get into the past?...'

Other premies around town have gone out of their way to give me big,big smiles...
I think they're trying to let me know that they are very, very happy, and still like me...but hey, let's not get too close, OK?.

(That one reminds me of some relationships that I have seen.
After the breakup, each party goes out of their way to let the other party know how extremely happy they are, and they are doing just fine without the former partner, thank you..)

It's quite obvious that a number of practitioners still are quite attached in one way or another to the lotus feet, and do not want to hear anything that rocks that boat.

Another strategy, or form of denial that I have seen is the 'mindless compassion reaction'.
A number of premies expressed to me that they were sad that I was in turmoil over this.
Now they didn't want to discuss WHY I might be in turmoil, just that they were sad that I was sad.
Kind of like if my dog got run over by a car. We want you to know that we are sad because you are sad...but hey, I got to run, you know, kids are calling, grocery shopping ...bye.
No need to get into that WHY thing, but we want you to know that we are indeed compassionate.

That was sort of the tack that Ira took with me during our 2 hour phone conversation.
He started by saying that he knew I was in pain.
He could feel it from the letter, and he felt bad abut it.

('I'm sorry to hear about your pain,but let's not talk about it too much, because I may start feeling something uncomfortable myself,and we don't want that, do we?...')

My feeling is that I like the compassion, if it's real.
It's the denial that bugs me.

The third denial strategy I found was one expressed by another friend.
She said that 'I should have been a lawyer'.
When I asked what that meant, she wouldn't answer.
It was her way of keeping an arms length from the issue.(Once again, we don't want to get too close, wouldn't be prudent...)
Finally, I pried it out of her.
I should have been a lawyer,she said, because I like to fight, and make a mountain out a molehill.

Once again,no credence given to the facts, just that this guy likes to fight.(not really, and she knew it)
We don't discuss anything, and we'll just pin it all on the fact that you're an asshole.
There's really no problem, except the one that you are making up.

So, in summary, I've seen a few strategies...

1)Don't go for the truth.
Frame it as 'Who do you believe?Who's been there for you?
Maharaji or------?(fill in the blank)

2)Phony compassion.
I understand, but please don't talk to me.
I might have to think and experience some uncomfortable, confronting feelings myself.

3)You should be a lawyer.
In other words, everything is just fine, until you start creating problems.
You're not looking for truth or honesty, just creating problems, because you are not greatful.
I'm a greatful premie,and everything's working just fine, thank you.
You're ungreatful, and that's your problem.

4)This stuff is just 'food for the mind'.
This is one of those 'golden oldies' that gets pulled out of the closet once in awhile, especially amongst old timers.

I'm sure there are more forms of denial: these are a few that come to mind.

I do believe 'The emperors clothes' was written for a reason.

But until you're ready to take a long, honest look at the emperor and yourself,those clothes he's wearing look just fine, thank you.

Sincerely,
Jim Sander

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 18:18:15 (GMT)
From: Arthur Sawyers
Email: arthursawyers@hotmail.com
To: Jim Sander
Subject: How Exciting. Clarity
Message:
So mr. Clear Persons. Congratulations on y0ur next step toward your creation for YOu. I am sure you are enjoying the larger freedom that will never get smaller, because it all belongs to you.

Fully Responsible, Fully Free and Sovereign.

My friend I am sure our paths will cross anew in the future, as our creations are frequency bound.

I am on the farm in va. And totally enjoying being with me.

YOu Friend and fellow Stewart. Arthur

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:24:57 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: How Exciting. Clarity
Message:
I don't know if this 'translation' is what will satisfy you, but for me it helps:

So mr. Clear 'Jerkoff' Sex fights. Congratulations on y0ur next step toward your creation for YOu. I am sure you are fingering the fingering larger freedom that will never get smaller, because it all cuntlapps to you.
Fully 'Mistress Anal' Responsible, Fully 'Buzzwordbaby' Free and Sovereign.

My friend I am sure our sex fights will sucks anew in the entering future, as our squirts are frequency bound.

I am on the shafting farm in va. And totally smacking being with me.

YOu Friend and fellow Stewart. Arthur

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:00:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Arthur Sawyers
Subject: Clarity? Can someone translate this guy? (nt)
Message:
hhhhhh
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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:46:33 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Clarity? Can someone translate this guy? (nt)
Message:
Now that WAS funny.And Art will laugh like a braying donkey at that.

But let me paraphrase this one for you into Jimspeak. It is in perfectly lucid Arthurspeak. I know cause Art's been a closer than close friend for 20+ years. And this was his first post.

Congratulations on seeing things as they are and clearly. And accepting a larger view of reality. Where you are responsible
for your own life, not the one who your townspeople strangely defend. I applaud you and feel we are on the same frequency. Like frequencies attract one another. Let's hang out if you like. I'm up in Virginia.

Maybe Quint can run it through the pornolizer for you if it still does not resonate to your frequency. Canadian English and American all spoken here . . .

Mark Appleman ( who chooses not to Capitalize indiscriminately )

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:26:36 (GMT)
From: Henry
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: The many faces of denial, part two....
Message:
Jim, your analysis seems right on to me.

I think Denial is intrinsic to the whole belief system of MJ-ism. At least when I was involved ('73-'84), meditation was presented as the way to block out all unpleasant thoughts, emotions, and perceptions. Meditation was the tool to support denial. Denial was the priority because by denying what I didn't want to experience (or what MJ recommended that I not experience), then I could experience Bliss or Truth. Definately Denial was promoted, rather than the alternative (to accept and work through the uncomfortable stuff).

I also think the Denial stuff ties back emotionally to early childhood when I decided I was going to be a good boy and not be a bad boy. Emotions and thoughts became polarized to win the approval of omnipotent parents. I think that's a necessary childhood stage. But later on people acquire other tools and strategies (such as reasoning) to cope with life.

So maybe MJ stepped into that subconscious parent role and by following his directions and denying everything I didn't want to deal with, I could feel good about myself, and feel worthy of parental love. A strange circuit to escape my insecurity.

Ergo, Denial ain't a river in Egypt -- it's the creek on Rawat's estate.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 00:23:21 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: The many faces of denial, part two....
Message:
great post jim.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:35:56 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: Very good analysis
Message:
M's philosophy is the opposite of enjoying life. Life is 'the full catastrophe,' as Zorba the Greek said, and as Jon Kabat-Zinn reminded me in his book.

It is about the whole spectrum of experience. M's idea of enjoying life is blocking out what we don't like and holding back the tide. The opposite of peace and acceptance. It's more like, 'I sit on my cushion in peace and bliss while I might faintly hear that lunatic through the locked door in the back room. Ah, peace. Ah, bliss.' Ah, hossturds.

It's morally commendable to try to be a good person, and to be kind and compassion. It is sheer folly to deny the other influences passing through our field of perception at any given moment.
love, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 12:40:53 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: The many faces of denial, part two....
Message:
Thanks, Jim - great post (as always!). I am amazed by the reaction of the people in your community.

When I stopped following M, I did it very quietly - but people figured it out. The only premie that I stayed friends with was a woman who I'd known for a while before I got knowledge - we somehow managed to keep our relationship intact by not talking about Maharaji at all. (We are still friends, and she's been an ex-premie for a while. I have also reconnected with some old friends on EPO) So I really didn't get to experience the denial - and of course, I didn't know any of the behind-the-scenes stuff back then - just that I was unhappy. You were very courageous to put it all out front as you did.

Take care, and thanks again,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:34:08 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: This sounds s-o-o-o familiar
Message:
Jim:

I went through some of this in dribs and drabs over the years, but the most dramatic reaction I got was after going to a program in about 1992. I hadn't been to a program since the 80s, and hadn't seen many of the premies since then, although of course I had several close friends that were (at the time) premies. (A few still are.)

During the program, the whole delivery was so strange to me. I'd been around too many Tibetan Buddhist lamas, and M seemed like a carney in comparison. Cheezy 'worship the Master' videos, premie music, and M himself, with his corny breathy then screechy and yelly delivery. I could not WAIT for him to SHUTTUP so we could leave.

People could tell we (my husband and I) were less than enamored, although we tried to keep quiet about it for the most part. But when one old friend turned to me and said longingly, 'I didn't want it to end. It wasn't enough.' 'I said, I couldn't wait for him to stop. I had enough.' My dharma group business card really shocked a lot of them though. I could see it in their immediate reactions, although they were politely veiled. A combination of: traitor, ungrateful one, lost soul, oh-you-poor-thing, could-what-I'm-doing-really-be-full-of-sh*t, etc.

I found out who my real premie friends were, because they stayed in touch with me and accepted or at least tolerated our views. To the rest, we've probably become pariahs or we-won't-even-think-about-it, or anything in between. The old friend did not return my e-mails.

THEN, this year when, after 2 years of gradually exiting and turmoil I essentially left the Tibetan Buddhist sanga where I'd once been the coordinator, I got similar reactions, especially the 'mindless compassion' you speak of. It didn't help that my father had just died. They threw it all on that. Oh, you're sad. Oh, you're 'suffering.' I felt great. Free of dogma. Free of 'having' to meditate or I was wasting my life. I'm glad to say several of them are still my friends, and we can even talk about why I feel the way I do.

But oh, you did a great description of the many faces of exiting a cult. Yikes!

love, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:11:53 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: The many faces of denial, part two....
Message:
Jim,

I confused you with or regular Jim[Heller].
Where would your part one of this be on the forum. I f kinda be able to post the link please. I would also like to use your post on it-Is-so site, would you mind. Am working on the sections What we Want? and I may include it in.

regards

Salam

it-IS-so

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 08:32:06 (GMT)
From: Louella Parsnip
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: The many faces of denial, part ONE....
Message:
Here Salam, I think this is part one of Jim Sander's post, the original just went into the inactive index. Here is a copy:

Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:17:32
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial...

Message:
A number of people have asked me to mention how my letters to the Chapel Hill, NC community were received, and what were some of the reactions to them.
Also, my 2 hour phone converstaion with Ira Woods, once the letter was received by EV.
Ira started out by telling me that my letter was taken seriously, and forwarded from EV to the office of maharaji.
I'm not sure what that meant, but I did ask him if maharaji would read it, or if I could talk to maharaji personally.
He couldn't assure me of either, which was understandable.

The conversation with Ira was interesting; unremarkable in some ways, but quite telling in others.
What wasn't said was just as informative to me as what was said.

I like Ira;I always felt that he was very intent on his spiritual practice, and not so interested in DLM politics and social climbing as some other big shots I met along the way.
I do believe he was at times a bit fanatical in the old days, but so were a lot of people.

Our conversation was very nice and heart felt for about the first hour...reminiscing about the old NY 83 St. ashram,divine sales, the electric circus, early 1970's programs etc.
That was nice.

But I soon became aware of the 'apples and oranges' syndrome as we went deeper into our talk.
What I believe is that maharaji's obvious flaws,hypocrisies and manipulations are dealt with in the same way we deal with these same problems with politiicans.

If you like the guy, you overlook everything.
If you don't like the guy, you notice everything.
Look at Reagan....obviously a deeply flawed man who lied to us, but you would never know that from the conservatives version of history.
Or Clinton...you either wanted to lynch him if you were a conservative, or you could calmly overlook his pecadillos if you were a liberal.

What I see premies doing is obviously overlooking maharaji's blatant lies and deceptions.
When I mentioned these things to Ira, he just couldn't/didn't/wouldn't get it.
It really was apples and oranges..you couldn't compare the two.
He simply did not see anything to be upset about...he told me that he had heard all the wierd stories before, and it didn't bother his practice.
Knowledge is perfect, even though some times his mind wants to try and pick it apart.
All the other stuff is clutter along the path...doubts to be overlooked.
Don't get into all the wierd rumors and such, and you're ok.
It simply works, and what's the problem?

I finally gave up after about 2 hours, realizing that the whole issue of trust, honesty, ethics etc. was not going to be broached with Ira.
He did agree that these allegations and revelations are affecting new people, and they have been reading the site.
EPO is hurting maharaji's work, to be sure.
But beyond that, not much room for open dialogue.
As one friend put it, Ira has an IRA, from maharaji, and he's not going to bite the hand that feeds him, or go against any party line.

It struck me as ironic, that the very people who started out as rebellious seekers of truth, wary of religion and dogma, are now desparately clinging onto the maharaji religion and dogma.
They have become the religious establishment that they so wisely and warily avoided as young seekers, and are quite threatened by any type of critical thinking, reasoning or heart felt feeling that upsets that apple cart.

Rather than search for the truth, they seek the safety of the religion and personality cult around maharaji.
Clinging to the illusion of truth, rather than truth.

I have noticed the same thing with premies I know from different places.
If they're still doing it, they kind of like the religion,the routine of it...something would be missing if they weren't doing it.
Yet no one seems to have any deep experience of anything, and certainly nothing that they can or are allowed to articulate.
It is dead beyond belief, but most premies are still reluctant to talk critically of it, or speak honestly about it.
There is to be no doubt or critical examination of the master.

This 'premie blind spot' can be comforting to some.
Anything that feels uncomfortable can be labelled a 'doubt'.
You simply overlook these 'doubts' and never, ever, 'doubt the master'.
It makes life easy, but only if you want to live with eyes closed.

The problem begins when this artifical reality that you have created meets the real world reality.
The vast majority of new people will simply not ignore all of these obvious lies and deceptions the way that the premies do.
They have no need to.
In fact, most of them will be hyper-sensitive to anything that smacks of cult.

Eventually the blind spot is what will derail this whole thing.

Maharaji needs this current 'shot in the arm' of devotion.
Recent events like the toe kissing and arti are no coincidence.
While it may bolster sagging spirits for a short time, eventually it will catch up, both with maharaji, and the premies.

Although Ira and the premies don't see any problems(because they simply cannot afford to see any problems), and blindly forge on ahead with their master's words spurring them on, they will eventually realize that what they are doing is quite immoral.

To not tell prospective new recruits about ALL of the maharaji story,is simply unethical, short sighted and foolish.
As the truth unfolds,numerous hearts will be broken, bonds of trust shattered,and premies will be looked at as either naive fools at best or cult recruiters at worst.

It's ironic that the group that challenged America with the slogan 'Who is guru maharaji?', is now about to find out a lot more about the man than they probably ever wanted to know.

Sincerely,
Jim Sander

PS:I will talk about reactions from other people in next post.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 13:56:28 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Louella Parsnip
Subject: Thanks Mr/Mrs Parsnip....nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:39:58 (GMT)
From: Mark Appleman
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: The many faces of denial, part two....
Message:
and Crossing the Nile, to freedom.

Jim, its all about giving Satsang, speaking your truth, all over again. From a detached place. And doing unto others as you would have done to you. Which you have done. In spades.

I had an exchange about 4 years ago with a brilliant man who I had put a very large Devotional project together with in the late 80's. It blew my mind. We had put poems together(that's right, I was an ELK poet before it was cool) in a leather bound book and presented it to maharaji for his birthday in Brussels back in 88 or 89. There was not a poem in that book that would be Kosher under current standards. These were 'Lord you are this Lord you are that' types of poems. from Marolyn, Maharaji's kids, bihari, rank and filers from 5 continents, instructors , gopis, this guy and myself. Hundreds of pages of poetry long. This guy said he felt he had been put on this Earth to write Maharaji's Maharbata.

So during our very sweet ongoing friendship now comes this conversation, ten years later ; circa 1999. He says something along the lines of ' Mark, I read your journey. Did you really believe all that stuff about him being the Lord ?'

I snapped back I guess I wasn't sophisticated enough to be bluffing it all those years like him. Or not taking it seriously. Like he and the one's still remaining in Knowledge Lite Village.( or the one's who mystically and conveniently evolved, like Erika A )

It reminded me of an experience I had during my bookbuying days. There was this Biology teacher in Tampa CC with piles and piles of new books in his office. He said he didn't believe in bookbuyers. I of course assumed that after hearing my clever spin on bookbuying and its actual ethicality, I would get those books and make some serious coin. Anyway, about 30 seconds into my pitch he said something I will never forget. He said 'DON'T TRY AND CONFUSE ME WITH THE FACTS. I'VE ALREADY MADE UP MY MIND!!!'. I congratulated him on his clarity, and moved on.

This is EXACTLY what I ran into with my friend, and you did with your friends and neighbors in Chapel Hill ( ex-arti partner et al)

The FACTS are terribly damning in this case. So the only defensive approach is to impeach the witnesses, play ostrich, or raise your voice (play the power/ fear card) and ignore everything. Anyone absorbs the truth of the MORAL SPIRITUAL & MATERIAL bankruptcy of Maharaji and his fraudulent ' Mission' is on their way out.

I still remain friends with this man, but I learned that day that people that remain MUST maintain that NOTHING IS, WAS, OR WILL EVER BE WRONG with Maharaji. And NEVER admit inconsistencies in their behavior either. Not head on at least. Because their leader doesn't either. And this is a pretty fragile thing - this lord / not lord / coverup / changes / personal problems thing. One leak directly digested - jagdeo, abortions & mistresses, X-rating, drinking, phony lineage, personal aberrations, abject and preposterous revisionism - and the house of cards fall down. And they FEAR THAT THEY WILL FALL WITH IT. AND GIVEN THE LIFE OR DEATH LEVEL THAT PEOPLE BOUGHT THIS WHOLE PROGRAM ORIGINALLY (even tho this all seems quite tame these days) leaving M IS the end of their life as they percieve it. This is why you I and other premies who 'popped' out of the system run into such weird shit from otherwise normal people.

And that 'spiritual' people, Lovers of God, invoulentarily find themselves 25 years later being forced to be politicians. To cover inconsistencies. Which frankly, none are too good at. And it can't feel good.

And I feel sorry for the dishonesty that is at work in that part of my friend's life. But bottom line, I brought it up. And that gave him a chance , ever so fleetingly, to look his and his master's BS right in the eyeballs.

& Which you did as well, by giving satsang & speaking your truth in your town. the ironies that you brought up a few days ago that those that remain are sort of 'Establishment' types is something that they - not you - are left to deal with.

You have left the land of bondage and crossed De Nile

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:19:10 (GMT)
From: David M
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Great Post
Message:
Jim...Another great post..These are the type posts that will Keep lurkers comming back for more... questioning there values..Bravo keep up the good work..Peace David
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:01:27 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: The many faces of denial, part two....
Message:
Hi Jim Sanders,

This is another impressive posting. Where did the premies see your letter? If they saw that one, hopefully they'll see this one...sooner or later they should see the light. The real light!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:07:49 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: How the premies saw Jim's letter
Message:
Deborah,

Jim sent his letter to everyone in his community when he exitied. After all he was community coordinator and had the mailing list.

This is why Jim is such a hero:-)

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:22:46 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Cool!-----------------------nt
Message:
zzz
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:47:23 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Thanks Jim S, another great post
Message:
When I left I wasn't involved with premies, and those I knew I didn't contact mainly because I was close to emigrating, so it's really interesting to read about your experiences, and really sad that all your acquaintances are afraid to think.

Thanks again,

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:42:21 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Another BEST OF
Message:
Thamks Jim I have been saving and printing out your contributions as I feel they put the situation very clearly and this one on denial is funny and sad. I had quite a long confrontation with an old premie friend, an intelligent guy too, via E-mail and I sent him your first letter to EV. His only response was 'Oh so Maharaji smokes cigarrettes...Big Deal!'He completely ignored the central questions . That does seem to be the premie attitude. .Avoid questioning or doubting. Can you imagine how unhealthy that is in any arena of life.
Anyway thanks for your posts.
Love and peace and the whole shebang,
Tim
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